What's the value? (Terry McMullen)

Chad is a successful business person who now works to help coach others on how to be successful. What's super interesting about Chad is that:

1. He has some spiritual and religious values that underpin a lot of his thinking and his goals in life.

2. On the surface, he can seem like a bit of a "finance bro" who overemphasizes his masculinity and his drive to win at life.

As we do on this show, we spent the discussion trying to reconcile that, understand who Chad really is, and why he approaches life the way he does.

We didn't shy away from the controversial areas or the potential contradictions, we leaned into them. The result was a really honest and authentic conversation, where I got to truly understand another person's perspective.

Big thanks to Chad for being game for the discussion and having an honest conversation.

A more complete bio from Chad is below:

Chad Wittfeldt started his entrepreneurial journey at a young age by starting a landscaping company and electronic arbitrage business in his teenage years. He quickly focused on investing in the equities & currency markets. Chad later became a full-time investor and real estate entrepreneur in his twenties. Today, he's partnered on over $30,000,000 in real estate syndications.

The tag line on Jertaker's profile read, "I’m an American Musician, Entrepreneur, Content Creator, Wrestler and Student Nurse from Buffalo NY." That was intriguing right away and as I looked into him more I realized he was a Youtube content creator, who did crazy things on video (getting pepper sprayed, tasered, etc.), made his own music videos, and wrestled in an independent wrestling league. I like to think of my self as an open minded, non judgmental person, but even I quickly started to draw a conclusion about who "Jertaker" was. He must be one of these young people who thinks life is all about getting likes and attention. He is a product of the age we live in now, where it is all superficial social media stuff and no one ever really wants to grow up to take on real world responsibility. But that is why I do this show. I don't want to be that person that just assumes or judges people based on some preconception I have about life. I want to understand what, if anything, is actually underneath someone like Jertaker's approach to life. I want to get to have an in depth conversation to see what it's really all about. What I learned from this conversation and his value of "fully experiencing life" (which we realized mid way through was actually his value); is that this was not superficial at all for Jertaker. The approach he is taking, to try and fully embrace life, live it to the fullest, and experience as many different things as he can is very real and logical to him. He loves life and learning new things. He has realized that he loves music, and content creation, and marketing, and nursing, and wrestling, and on and on. The interesting thing about him though is that, unlike me and many others, he doesn't have a voice in his head that tells him "well that is too much, you need to settle down and pick something to focus on." That idea of limiting yourself makes no sense to him. Why would you not do all the things you enjoy? In many ways I very much get his philosophy on life and think it makes a lot of sense. Too many of us are too conditioned to believe that this life style is immature or aimless and we are "not allowed" to live that way, and maybe that is a mistake. To be fair though, there are some risks to it. We talked about personal relationships and how they suffer for Jertaker because he is optimizing for experiences and achievements, rather than deep connections with people. We also talked about the potential risks of always focusing on what makes you happy and that maybe it doesn't leave enough room for self reflection and questioning. Truth be told though, who knows, maybe Jertaker and others like him have figured something out. That if you approach life with extreme optimism and every experience is something new and exciting, you set yourself up for optimal happiness. I don't know, time will tell for Jertaker, but I do know that I have a much better perspective on who he is and how he thinks, thanks to this conversation. 

Peace. What a concept. There is so much to unpack in that word. When I hear it I get a visceral reaction to it. It's as if my mind and body are deeply conditioned to appreciate it. I don't know how to explain it other than it feels good. It feels like where we are meant to be. Yet for so many of us, it also feels like something so elusive. We spend so much of our lives searching, fighting, and yearning for peace--what a paradox. That is why I was so happy to talk to my guest today, Erica, who stated peace as her most important value. 

As way of background, Erica is an author and the founder of Disrupter University, a community of scholars who support educators and administrators through cultural awareness training, equity-based climate coaching, and community programs. That paradox shows up again when you consider the work Erica does around equity and inclusion. There is so much tension and conflict in this work, it doesn't seem like there would be a lot of peace to be had in it. However, Erica articulated so beautifully how she thinks about this paradox. Peace is not about everything working out the way you hoped or some utopian destination we will ever reach. The world is far too complicated and at times ugly for that to be definition. For Erica, peace is rooted in hope that things can change and confidence that you've done the best you can do. That sounds simple, but it is a messy, pain-staking journey to try to find this peace. 

We didn't only reflect on this in an abstract, philosophical way though. Erica and I spoke about her experiences as a child, as a college basketball player, and as an educator that molded her into the person she is today. We also spoke about how these topics play out in the equity work she does, dealing with issues like racism and police brutality. And, maybe my favorite part of the discussion, we spent time talking about how finding peace has allowed her to become a much more effective and empathetic educator. Erica has a perspective and self-awareness that is extremely rare, so it was truly a pleasure to have this conversation with her.

When I first created this show, I had a (maybe naïve) hypothesis that it would work with anyone on any topic. The thought was that at its root, if you are talking to someone about what they value most and you can follow the thread and ask good questions, it will always be interesting. TBD if that is true or not, but I think this episode was a proof point that it might be true. Nancy is the CEO & Co-Founder of a telehealth startup called Winona, a Ph.D., Biochemist with 30 years of experience, and a mom of 5 sons. When she first reached out to me, Nancy said she thought the work she was doing around menopause and hormone replacement therapy would be interesting for the podcast. I was skeptical. But she went on to talk about the impact this experience, which is misunderstood by so many people, has on woman's lives, careers, and families. So I figured we'd give it a shot. I am glad I did, because it ended up being a really interesting and thought provoking conversation. It's easy to assume talking about menopause and woman's health might not be relevant for a lot of people, but digging deeper into topics like why we hate getting older, how society views older woman, biases in medicine, etc. actually leads to a lot of interesting observations about how humans think. In many ways this episode showcased what this show is supposed to be in its purest form: a deep, philosophical exploration into the topics that matter most to my guests-- no matter what they are. A big thanks to Nancy for being so open about her personal experiences and why the work she is doing is so important to her. I hope you guys give it a chance and that you find it valuable/interesting too. As always, I really appreciate you listening. 

My guest today, Marie, has had an amazingly tragic, yet beautiful life. We didn't get too deep into the tragic part of it in the show so I will give some of the background here. When she was fourteen she became a mom and was in a very toxic relationship which she stayed in for 25 years. She had three more children, was victim to domestic abuse, drugs/alcohol, and infidelity (by both her and her husband). She also experienced the tragic deaths of her father, sister, and niece (which was particularly horrible as her sister had a bad reaction to the wrong medication and was hallucinating when she dropped her daughter out of a window). For many people that would have been enough and for Marie it almost was. She had bouts with depression and suicide where it just seemed like life was never going to be OK.

But that is where the beautiful part comes in. Marie eventually got out of that toxic relationship and married a new man who she loves deeply. She took the lessons she learned from her experiences and realized that she needed to find "honesty" and a relationship with God to get her back to where she wanted to be in life. For Marie, a relationship with God meant having a reason and a method to hold herself accountable. Having the ability to figure out where she could be better, where she needed to make changes, and where she could be more honest with herself and the world. Eventually she took all of this wisdom she gained and wrote a book called The Pretty Divorce, where she tries to help women realize that they have the ability to come out of toxic relationships, create brighter futures for themselves, and have healthy relationships with people who truly love them, if they so choose to do so. 

I appreciated so much Marie's raw authenticity and sharing stories of where she gets it right but also where she gets it wrong. It made the insights she was sharing that much more potent. We also spent a good bit of time talking about her relationship with God and what that looks like, as well as the importance of parents embracing honesty and accountability with and for their children. This was truly a beautiful conversation and I appreciate Marie a ton for being on.

Cassandra has been on a journey focused on teaching others to find their authenticity, to have effective/healthy relationships, and to better communicate with those around them. She has been on this journey to help others, in many ways, because she has been on a journey to help herself. Cassandra went through some pretty terrible traumas in her life, including being sexually abused when she was younger, and more recently when being hit by a drunk driver she finally began to realize the importance of figuring out how to be at peace with herself. 

As way of background, Cassandra is an author ("Being Whole"), professor, communication consultant, and motivational speaker. She chose "authenticity" as her most important value because she believes that is the key to dealing with your trauma and ultimately finding peace. What I loved about having her on as a guest was the awareness and raw honesty with which she spoke. At one point she was explaining some difficult times in her life, where she had this overriding feeling that something was wrong with her even though on the surface everything seemed like it should be fine. I think most of us find ourselves with that feeling at some point in our lives, so it really resonated to hear her speak about it and how she worked her way through it.

Towards the end of the show we had a really interesting conversation about kids and parenting; and specifically how much we should try and teach kids these lessons and life tools. We tried to understand the implications of engaging them in this type of deep self reflective and empowering work at a young age, as well as the implications of not doing it. It is obviously a tricky path to navigate, without clear answers, but we both agreed the more we can introduce our children to these concepts at a young age, the better off they and the world will be.

Sylvia is a certified TRE Provider (Trauma Releasing Exercises) that truly believes stress really is the root of all evil and can be addressed through TRE treatment. I will be honest, part of the reason I was excited to talk to Sylvia is because I didn't really know much about TRE and what I did know sounded a little fuzzy to me. I was curious to understand more, not just about the treatment, but also about her as a person. How did she get into it, what made her such a believer in it, and how did it fit into her overall approach to life? This really was one of the more fun and interesting conversations I have had. Sylvia started off talking more broadly about gratitude as her number one value, so we spent some time talking about the power of gratitude and how to be genuinely grateful (even when life sucks sometimes). Then we spent some time talking more specifically about TRE and she was gracious enough to answer all my questions as I tried to understand how it actually worked. Then we finished off the discussion trying to better understand what makes us (rhetorical "us") so skeptical and hesitant to try new things, even when they seem to be beneficial. We hypothesized about the underlying psychology that might drive that and how big a role fear plays into it.  For those who were more like me, and maybe a little skeptical about TRE or other "body work" exercises to improve your well being, I really encourage you to check this episode out. You will learn a little more about TRE, a little more about Sylvia, and maybe even a little more about yourself. A big thanks to Sylvia for making the time and for helping me to think and grow a little bit more.

I got connected with Paul through a mutual friend, who just told me that Paul has some really strong, interesting thoughts on life. That is enough for me to be intrigued right away. I love people who have strong opinions and are willing to put them out there for an open discussion, it fits in beautifully to the format/intent of this show. It allows us to learn and uncover deeper insights, in a way that we can't when someone is more guarded. I am glad our friend connected us, because this conversation with Paul was definitely one of these instances.

Paul started with "service" as his most important value and spent much of the discussion illustrating how/why that value is so important to him. As someone with strong opinions, Paul's views aren't for everybody. There are some who will listen and say this guy is naïve, or idealistic, or communist, etc. But Paul is unapologetic in his view that at our root we are on this earth to try to help those in need, minimize unnecessary suffering, and not put our own ego/greed above anyone else. He takes issue with the Elon Musks of the world who think it is OK to hoard resources and exploit people for their own benefit.

But again, the reason I do this show isn't to convince anyone that a particular view is "right" or "wrong." The reason I do it, is to have an authentic, honest discussion about the views people have. To try to explore them and see what can be learned when we pressure test these ideas or try to look at them from a different perspective. To Paul's credit he was totally open to that and welcomed my questions. He didn't always see it the way I did, but he always listened and had a thoughtful response. Listening, thinking, and learning--that is the game. 

I am not sure we settled the big questions of life (e.g., is their an objectively right way to live, can capitalism every work for everyone, do we have a moral obligation to help others, etc.?), but we definitely expanded our perspectives. I know we won't all agree in life, but if we keep reminding ourselves that we share the same objective of trying to figure out how to ease suffering and be better today than we were yesterday, I think it gives us a shot. 

This conversation with Sedruola ran the gamut of emotions for me. At times I was inspired, hopeful, and motivated; at other times I was horrified, cynical, and depressed. In a weird way though I think that is the sign of a truly authentic, learning conversation. Whenever you are getting as deep as we did into topics like human nature, racism, "I vs. We", it has to feel hard, uncomfortable, and scary--otherwise you probably aren't doing it right.

To step back for a moment, Sedruola is a cancer survivor/thriver, dedicated to social justice, equity, inclusion, and sharing hope and love with anyone who cares to listen. She does this through her work as a consultant with businesses as well as through her own podcast "Diversity Dish." She started with the value of "being true to yourself" as the most important ingredient to figure out how to live a better life and maybe how to cure a lot of the ills that face our society today.

We jumped right in and started discussing what it really meant to be true to yourself? What happens if my version of truth is different than your version of truth? How do I know I am actually being true to myself vs. convincing myself I am because it serves me in some way? All of that lead to a discussion about the work Sedruola does and the challenges of combatting racism in our world. She gave some fantastic stories and examples to make these abstract points very real. 

By the end of the discussion we got deep into the question of human nature and if it has doomed us to a world where conflict and inequity is inevitable, or if there is reason for hope and optimism? Sedruola believes there is a reason to be optimistic and I really hope she is right, but my pessimistic side isn't so sure. A huge thanks to Sedruola for being on the show, sharing her experiences, and being so open to discussing these really sensitive and personal topics.

Dave is a is a retired Fire Department Battalion Chief, author (“Fireproof: Your Grand Strategy for Transforming Failure into Fuel for Your Future”), motivational speaker, and coach/mentor. These days, Dave spends much of his time running his leadership consulting firm and hosting his own podcast (From Embers to Excellence). Given his background I knew we would talk about leadership, but it was really interesting how Dave framed service, adding value to others, and what he calls "selfish altruism" as key tenets of being a leader. 

There was also an authenticity to how he thought about serving others, seemingly because he has really worked through the process in life to prove it is worth it. As Dave mentions he didn't always think this way. His ego used to be much bigger and he didn't really see much value in being a better leader or helping to raise those around him. But he's done a lot of work, humbled himself, and tried to truly learn what life is all about for him. Through that he realized the path of caring about other people and trying to help them improve, is what brings him the most purpose and joy.

Then we did the fun work of asking the deep philosophical questions to try to understand why that is. Why does it actually matter on the grand scale of the universe if we make someone else smile or improve their circumstances? Is it just because it makes us feel good? Because if that is the case, is it fair to say that if it doesn't make somebody feel good to help others than they shouldn't? We asked those and lots of other big, hairy meaning of life questions; and it was fun to get Dave's perspective on them. Big thanks to him for being on and sharing his insights.

It was my birthday recently and I decided I wanted to do the things I really enjoy and matter most to me. Two of things I enjoy and that matter most to me are spending time with my son and doing my podcast, so I decided to combine them. It may seem gimmicky, cheesy, or just a bad idea for a philosophy podcast to have my 8-year-old son, Kavian, on as a guest (and maybe it is), but I think there is some real value that came out of the conversation. My parents instilled in me the value of being thoughtful, asking questions, and thinking for myself and I try and do that with my son as well. I regularly engage him in these types of discussions because I want him to think about his thinking and his feelings in a deep, meaningful way. I am a strong believer that it is never too young for kids to start practicing that skill. What I loved about this podcast was the value Kavian picked: imagination. When I do these shows, I try to give the listeners a raw, authentic view into how other people think and live their lives. To be able to do that with an 8-year-old is particularly special, because their minds are so pure, genuine, and open. To hear directly from a child, as they explain why imagination is so magical to them, is something I think we all need more of in our lives. We talked about his drive to have fun in life, why so many grownups seem to lose that drive as they get older, and why it is so hard, even as an 8-year-old sometimes, to balance between having fun and doing the “right” thing. Listen, I am not going to lie to you and say everything he had to say was poetic or perfectly articulate (although at times I think he communicates better than I do), but by in large getting to peak inside his mind and get his authentic thoughts on life was really enjoyable and insightful for me. I truly believe all kids can benefit from having conversations like this as well, giving them a chance to be thoughtful, authentic, and logical as they try to make sense of their own thoughts/feelings and the world around them. I really hope you enjoy the show and thank you for listening.

One of the things I always worry about is that our minds’ number one skill is rationalizing and creating narratives that make us feel better. I worry about that because it makes me wonder if we ever accurately assess our lives and get to the truth about ourselves or if we constantly just make up stories that comfort us. This conversation with Immacula in many ways got right to the heart of this question.  To step back for a minute and give you her story, over 20 years ago she found herself in a very dark place. She was in a relationship that was incredibly violent and took away her self-esteem and destroyed her self worth. After giving birth to her daughter though, she woke up to the fact that she wanted better for her life. She began to visualize where she wanted to be and ultimately gave birth to a new vision. Today she is the owner of Cellars International Realty with a mission to connect and nurture individuals who seem to feel lost like she was and to help women in distress secure homeownership. We spent time talking about how she felt in that dark place, what stopped her from getting out of it, and what lessons she learned through the process. We questioned how critical direct experience and empathy is to helping people who are suffering and why she feels such a calling to do the work she does. But back to my point at the beginning, I think we also gleaned some insights about the question of creating narratives and the function that serves in our lives.  If I wanted to be cold or cynical I could look at Immacula's situation and say she did the obvious thing. She was in a bad situation and her mind had to make sense of it. It had to believe that it happen for a reason (otherwise life is just too shitty) and so her mind translated it into her calling and purpose for life. Logically that might all be true, but what Immacula helped me realize is that it doesn't have to carry a negative connotation. I don't have to view that through a cold or cynical lens. This is what life is. We are all dealt with tons of adversity and hardships in life (even if not as extreme as Immacula), so rather than seeing our minds’ ability to rationalize and comfort us as a flaw, see it as a beautiful gift. Something that allows us to look at a life filled with so much suffering but still find a way to have optimism and happiness. I will always worry about my mind going too far and over rationalizing or comforting, because the potential risks in that are too great. But Immacula and her story helped me to balance that fear with an appreciation for the way our minds help us overcome and rise above adversity. I hope you guys enjoy this episode and thanks as always for listening.

Dr. Lycka was a highly successful cosmetic dermatologist when he received a life changing diagnosis of ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) and thought his life was over. Fortunately, Dr. Lycka kept searching for more answers and eventually realized he was misdiagnosed. Once he got a second chance on life, he started to view things from a very different perspective. He began to simplify his life and focus on the things that really mattered to him (e.g., being of service to others). This has all led to a successful career as an author, podcast/radio host, and speaker; all geared around providing guidance on how to live a "fantastic life."

The thread throughout the conversation with Dr. Lycka was around better understanding that simple, yet impactful approach to life. I tend to view life as extremely complex and nuanced, making simple approaches to life good in theory but difficult to actually execute. I appreciated Dr. Lycka's thoughtful responses to these questions because I think for many people like me, we desperately want a simple answer, but we just haven't found one that works yet. One of the concepts that came up was the Japanese "ikigai", which provides a very practical framework for finding "your reason for being."

I think if I had to net out Dr. Lycka's advice it says that we need to: 1. figure out what matters to us (our ikigai), 2. determine our non-negotiables in trying to achieve it, and 3. take on more risk and continuously work towards it (although he articulates it much better in his book and his "13 pearls of wisdom"). As I read those words I know there is a lot of wisdom and good advice in there, but I think as Dr. Lycka would acknowledge, it can be a long, difficult journey to get to a place where you are able to act on it. Or maybe it can be a really simple process if we follow the right steps. That is the beauty of this show and of life; we get to explore all the different perspectives on getting to our version of a "fantastic life."

A solo session where I reflect on some of the things I am learning, examine the value of cynicism, and explore how we (humans) might be better.

Aadil is a friend from Harvard Business School who I've always admired, but at the same time always wondered what made him tick. He's lived an interesting life, being born and raised in Mombasa, Kenya, and then spending most of his adult life studying and working in Europe, America, and Africa. He's been successful as an entrepreneur, a product developer, and maybe most notably as an angel investor focused mainly on emerging markets (with lots of investment back into Africa).

I admired Aadil because I remember in business school he seemed to have a very worldly and sophisticated view of life. It was almost as if he seemed to understand something that most others had not (or at least I hadn't). Life always seems so complex to me and at times almost impossible to figure out how if we are supposed to be good, successful, happy, humble, fulfilled, or whatever else? Aadil seemed to encompass all of these things in almost an effortless way. Those are the exact types of people I want to dig into and question to understand what is underneath it all. Does he really have it all figured out? How does he view life and his reason for being here?

Aadil started off the show talking about his work in angel investing and how in some ways, it started back when he was 6 years old riding in the car with his dad in Mombasa. He remembers a moment when a young, seemingly homeless, child came to their car window asking for help. He wasn't intellectually sophisticated enough to make sense of why this boy, who was the same age as him, was living on the street while he was riding in comfortable in a car; but he did feel a deep sense of unfairness.

Ultimately it led to his value of "leveling the playing field", trying to create products and invest in organizations that help prevent kids like that boy, who didn't choose to live on the street (just like Aadil didn't choose to live in a well off family), from being put in that unfair position. He takes a very pragmatic approach to life, almost like a life hacker (meant as a compliment), trying to bridge his skills, desires, and morals to make the most impact, while living the most enjoyable life he can. Then we did the fun philosophical work of questioning it all, trying to determine if this approach to life made Aadil a good person, a wise person, or a selfish person (or maybe all 3?).

Larry is an author ("Nobody Knows, They Just Want You to Think They Do"), podcaster ("Nobody Knows Your Story") and a former member of the Mormon church. He describes himself as an "average white guy, with a not so average life." He came to the discussion with "authentic independence" as the value that mattered most to him. We spent a bit of time up front exploring what that meant and where it came from, but it became clear very quickly that his upbringing in the Mormon church played a large role in it. So we spent a lot of time understanding the dynamics of being in what he called a "high demand" religion, the aspects of the human psyche that draw some people to it, and the question of if religion can be functional even if you don't believe it is true. This was something that Larry had tested in a very horrific way when he lost his son a few years ago and had to grapple with the idea that he no longer believed he would be reunited with him in the after life. I thought this conversation was really intellectually stimulating and we discussed a lot about religion and some of the logical flaws in "faith." But what I really appreciated and valued in this conversation is that we also challenged ourselves. We didn't allow ourselves to slip into the groove of believing that we "knew better" or were just smarter than those who have faith. Instead we tried to really understand if we were missing something, what someone who disagreed might say (and genuinely entertained the possibility they might be right), and questioned if religion is necessary for society to function.  Whether you have faith, are a true non believer, or are someone who is still grappling with the question, I think this is a really cool discussion to check out. We obviously don't have the answers, but if nothing else I hope it raises some good questions and ways of thinking about the topic. Thanks as always for listening.

Creation was the value Daniel (an autodidact, business owner, and podcast host- https://theallunknowing.com) chose for his most important value. Daniel chose creation because he believes our ability to create is our greatest tool to improve the world. He also believes logically, if we exist, then improvement must be our main objective. What else could we be working towards other then to make the world the best place we can?

The problem comes, as it always does, when we try to lock down what "best" actually means. We tried to look at obvious examples of "creating human improvements" (e.g., plumbing, medicine, AI, social media, or any other example you can think of) to determine if the world is really becoming a better place. But none of them seemed objectively net positive. Even if you look at the reduction of human suffering as a clear marker of human improvement, you have to ask, among other things: how do we measure suffering, on what time horizon are we measuring, and is every reduction in suffering inherently a good thing? As we explored these questions, we constantly ran into this dichotomy of life, where we know we must strive to be better but we have no idea what better means.

All of these questions led to a discussion of hatred as an example of how this dichotomy could lead to our demise. Because we can never turn off the need to improve; it eventually leads to some of the ugliest aspects of life. Maybe hatred was just humans taking something functional like anger and optimizing it too far. Maybe thats what we always do; we take things like survival, or pleasure, or happiness and we optimize them until it becomes negative. 

Following the thread through this discussion is a great example of what I think Daniel meant with the value of creation. Connecting with another human being to generate new thoughts and insights on questions like these, is maybe the best chance we have to break that dichotomy. I really appreciate Daniel for bringing his perspective and for exploring all of these topics with me.

Mark is an attorney, social justice advocate, award-winning author of the Zachary Blake Legal Thriller Series, and co-host of the "Justice Counts" podcast. All of this centers around his passion for "social justice, safety, and fairness." Mark was also one of the first attorneys to sue the Catholic Church over sexual abuse by clergy, an experience that inspired his first book. His hope is that his books, which deal with an array of social issues (e.g., police shootings, immigration, etc.) through the lens of the legal system, will help provide a fair view of the issues we face today and drive people towards change.

What I loved about this conversation was that we were able to discuss a number of social issues we face from a deeply philosophical perspective. We tried to explore the aspects of human nature that give rise to these issues and also make them extremely complicated to solve. For example we discussed if racism is unique to white people or a general human tendency or if those who support gun control by definition have a moral high ground? Any time I get to explore topics like this and try to learn how we can be better as a society, I feel like there is something good in that. And Mark's willingness to look at these issues from all perspectives allowed for a really rich conversation.

This actually led us to an important, yet simple insight. When we think about topics like these, it is important for us to not lose sight of the point. The point being to remember the humanity in it all. Sure, we should discuss and debate if more gun control is required, or if police need to be better trained against racism to stop black men from dying, or if stricter immigration laws are a good idea. It's even OK to get passionate if you feel like someone is seeing it wrong. But remember what that passion should be rooted in-- a desire to make the world a better place. A desire to help those in need and minimize unnecessary suffering-- not just to win or prove we were "right." As Mark said, that might sound idealistic-- and if so, good. We should strive for the highest ideals. 

Jack Kammer views himself as the “counter-feminist social worker.” He has dedicated a significant portion of his life to this issue. He is a public speaker, social worker, podcast host, and ultimately a strong voice trying to address the undervaluation of masculinity (“vitamin M”) in our current culture. When he reached out to me, I immediately was intrigued. This was my first opportunity to have someone on the show who was kind of unapologetic about such a controversial topic. The show and the approach I take is meant to try and overcome the usual bickering, tit for tat, and anger-based division that arises when someone has strong views on a topic like this. It was meant to provide a better way to work through it. That was what it was meant to do, but would it? Listen, I am not going to sugar coat it (nor would Jack for that matter) he has strong feelings about the damage aspects of the feminist movement have caused. It would be super easy, and some might say even justified, to dismiss his views, consider him an asshole, and move on. But that is not helpful, nor is it logical. There are a number of things Jack brought up which are valid. There are aspects of human nature and the current social environment that might be causing harm to men (obviously that does not ignore all the harm that has and still is being done to women). That is why I wanted to spend the time on the show hearing his views, probing them, and trying to get to the root of what they are actually based on. And maybe even more importantly, to question if the approach he was taking to try and fix the problems was logical and effective. We talked about it on the show a lot, how anger and hurt can cloud our judgement and perspective. That means even when we are genuinely trying to do something we believe is right, there is a chance that anger clouds our judgement on how to best do it. I appreciate Jack a ton for coming on the show, allowing us to dissect and question his views, and considering this possibility. I understand the topic may be triggering or upsetting for some, I get it, I really do. But my hope is that by taking this approach to these conversations, it gives us a better chance to finally break the division and get to a better outcome for all. As always, thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy the episode.

This is the type of thing that gets me excited. When someone comes to the discussion with a value of "kindness" and we can discuss, dissect, and debate it for 45 minutes. It seems absurd to debate whether "kindness" is a "good" thing. Why would you want to dissect that? Just assume that the kindness is always the best way. I get it, but clearly kindness doesn't seem to be the top priority for a lot of people today, so something must be off. Maybe it is human nature, maybe it is not the right "tool" for this time, or maybe there are some flaws in kindness itself. Maryam was a cool guest to explore this topic with, particularly because she had an assertiveness about the value of kindness, believing that it almost had to be the best way.  Maryam is an anthropologist who has lived in multiple different countries (currently in Pakistan) and has deep drive to understand people and to infuse more kindness into the world. We really stuck to the kindness "thread" in the conversation and tried to explore from all angles what kindness is and how inherently functional or good it is. The hope in a conversation like this is that by hearing us probe the idea of kindness it might help uncover some insights as to why people choose not to be kind sometimes; and maybe that helps make it more real and attainable. Or maybe we discover that kindness is inherently unrealistic at scale, so we should adjust our thinking to accept that reality.  Obviously we can't come to any concrete answers on any of this, but it seems too important not to explore and try and glean what we can. Maryam's background and thoughtfulness allowed me to gain a deeper understanding of kindness, so hopefully it does in some way for you too. I really appreciate you listening.

When you are talking to someone about their values and approach to life and the phrase "global domination" comes up, you know you are in for an interesting conversation. Urmi is Bengali by blood and Italian by birth and spent much of her life trying to figure out where she fit into these two different worlds. She never felt quite Italian "enough" and at the same time she struggled to fit into the strict and rigid Bengali culture she was raised in. This resulted in her never feeling good enough or living up to the expectations that were set for her.

Fast forward to her current life though and Urmi has embraced who she really is and is comfortable being uniquely herself. This transformation has led her to strong ambitions about the things she wants to achieve, in her career, volunteer work, professional brand, and the overall impact she makes on the world. As she put it, she wants her face to be everywhere and achieve that "global domination" I mentioned earlier. As you might imagine we spent a good bit of time talking about that phrase and understanding it more. How much ego is involved, what is behind the desire to become so influential, and how does it reconcile with her most important value: "friendship"?

I say it often, but these are the conversations I am after; talking to people who have a very deliberate view on what they want from life and are unapologetic about going after it. It was really interesting to hear Urmi explain her ambitions and pressure test the root "why" underneath it all. In some ways it was very relatable to things I grapple with. I want to be a good person, who helps others, and prioritizes those closest to me, but at the same time I want to achieve great things and be recognized for it. Does that make me a hypocrite or egotistical; or does it just make me human? I don't know, but it was really interesting to Urmi's take on it all.

Mike reminds me a little bit of the philosophers version of the "most interesting man in the world" (sorry if that old Dos Equis ad reference doesn't land). He has managed high-end restaurants, taught English, was the vice principal of a private language school, indexed books, published five novels, played in a professional rock band, visited all fifty states and more than 30 countries-- among many many other things. I was excited to talk to Mike because it is one thing to study or talk about philosophy, it is another thing to actually live it in its pure form. Mike is a philosopher through and through.

That became apparent very quickly in our conversation as he explained his value of integrity, which he defined as acting in accordance with your own standards. Mike believes most, if not all, of the problems we have in the world today are because most people either 1. don't define what their standards for living are, 2. don't act consistently in accordance with them, or 3. don't do both of those two things. That thesis opens the door to so many fascinating discussions, and Mike and I tried to get into all of them. We talked about how you figure out your standards, why it is so hard to act in accordance with them, what happens when your standards conflict with others, if the "golden rule" actually works, and lots more.

In short I think I may have found a new best friend. Mike has spent much of his time on earth searching for more understanding of himself and the world we live in. He thinks and writes about topics like murder, suicide, love, astrology, drugs, and the environment; not because they are trendy or lucrative, but because he is genuinely curious about them. This was one of the most intellectually and philosophically enjoyable conversations I've had in a while; and hopefully through all the philosophical ramblings and bromance, you guys find some insightful nuggets that might help you have a better day today than you had yesterday.

I've said this before, but there was a time before I started doing this show where I thought I understood the world. I thought I understood it at such a level that it was reasonable for me to judge or dismiss certain viewpoints as obviously wrong. Whether it be spiritual beliefs, different values, or an aspect of how the world worked that did not directly align with how I thought it worked. Ironically, I would not ask any questions or explicitly challenge the person (I was too much of a people pleaser), but would have just judged them in my head.

I don't know anything for sure, but the new approach I take to life definitely seems to be a lot better one. In this new approach, when I have a guest like Genie on who talks about building the skill to "talk" with animals, I am extremely open to the idea. Who am I to assume that is crazy or impossible or nonsensical? There is so much in this world we don't understand, how could I ever assume I know better? At the same time though, I am also much more comfortable to humbly question the idea to understand it better. I am not afraid to challenge and probe, because I know it is not coming from a place of judgement but rather from a place of curiosity.

So that is what Genie and I did in this discussion. She started with her mission (and the mission of her organization https://www.thehumananimalconnection.org/) to change the way humanity relates to animals. She wants to help people better communicate with the animals and understand that they have emotions, intentions, desires, and opinions. Her hope is that once people do that, it will be much harder to mistreat the animals they interact with.

The way she drives towards this mission is by showing people that it is possible to directly communicate with an animal (through a kind of telepathic connection), if you can enter the right mindset. She told stories of the connections she's made with dogs, cats, sheep, donkeys, horses, and many other animals. Although you may be skeptical, her accomplishments are pretty well documented showing that she has something figured out. The list includes an Emmy award-winning film, a bestselling book (The Human-Animal Connection), the President's volunteer service award for her work with over 4,000 service members/veterans, and her specialty, a therapy program that helps shy and traumatized dogs recover and heal.

If you love animals or just love learning about a new aspect of life that you were not familiar with before, this is a great episode for you. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

I spend a lot of time thinking about suffering. As I work through all of the conversations on this show, it is what I keep coming back to. We live in a world where it is almost all a mystery. If you dig deep enough, nothing really makes sense, at least in the traditional logical sense. The only thing that seems real is pleasure and suffering. We know, logically, viscerally, emotionally, and intuitively the feelings of pleasure and suffering.

This has lead me to a conclusion that the only concrete value to consider is one that tries to reduce unnecessary suffering. There are far too many instances of it in our world and we should be actively trying to reduce it, however we can. That is why this conversation with Jake came at exactly the right time (and is a perfect way to cap off the first season of What's the value?). Jake is writing a book called "The Art of Suffering: A Guide to Deriving Beauty from Life's Inevitable Pain."

Jake believes that life is a great mystery and the best thing we can do is engage that mystery in a "congruent" way. Since we live in unavoidable subjective blindness (i.e., the great mystery), the closest thing to objective truth is being congruent, or being free of internal contradictions. Said another way, Jake approaches life by diving head first into the mystery of life, with full acknowledgement that everything he thinks, feels, and believes is ultimately outside of his control. So he doesn't try to control it, master it, or challenge it; instead he surrenders to the greater intelligence that is the universe; and just goes along for the ride trying to learn and experience as much as he can.

The natural cynic in me spent a lot of time trying to question Jake about this Buddhist like approach. I wanted to understand how you can surrender to the universe when the universe has generated so much horrific suffering? How can we surrender to something that has not given us a solid reason to trust it? Jake and I had a really good discussion about all of this, but maybe the most notable take away was how Jake kept holding the mirror up to me. How all of these thoughts about needing to minimize suffering likely say much more about me (how I was raised, my lived experiences, my genetic make up, etc.) than they do about the universe.

This episode was a really unique one for me in many ways.  1. I have known Chris Powers for about 30 years and he is one of my oldest friends in the world. We went to junior high together and have been friends ever since. For that reason, the comfort level and trust we have, allowed us to have a conversation that is very difficult to have with someone you don't know that well. Part of that is because we know each other well enough to call bullshit (or possible bullshit) when we saw it, which makes the discussion more raw and authentic. Part of the reason is also because in most conversations there is a degree of mental energy that is allocated towards filtering my language to make sure the other person doesn't misinterpret or get offended by what I am saying. In this conversation I didn't have to do that and it allowed me to dedicate all of my mental efforts to following the logical thread, it allowed me to ask better questions and hopefully get to better insights. It was a valuable experience that I hope I can carry over into future conversations to make them even more authentic and impactful. 2. Chris and I spent 40 minutes having that really raw, authentic conversation about his value- legacy. By legacy he meant "winning." Winning he defined as being successful, having recognition, money, giving his kids a good life, etc. To his credit and what made the conversation great, was that he was honest about his need to "win." He explained why others might take issue with that or see it as a bad thing, but it still made sense for him. He also was open to me questioning and dissecting it to see if there were flaws in it. It was exactly the type of conversation I want to have on this podcast. Unfortunately I forgot to hit the record button. Believe me, it hurt like hell because I so badly wanted to be able to share the conversation we had. But we licked our wounds and decided we would have a new conversation about the conversation we just had. That is the point this podcast picks up. So apologies, it may feel like you are jumping into the middle of the discussion, but I think it works. You still get to hear his raw values/beliefs and our exploration of them.  3. That leads to my 3rd and final reason this episode was unique for me. Maybe because I knew him so well, maybe because we had already had such a deep conversation already, or maybe because I just got too comfortable and confident-- I am not sure this podcast was my best work. As I listened back to it, I realized I cut him off too much, I talked too much (and at times probably cursed too much), I was too eager and over confident to point out his potential flaws and where I thought I had it right. Although it makes me cringe a bit to listen back to it, I still wanted to share it. It was still a really good conversation and highlights the reason I am doing this podcast. Also it was an extremely valuable lesson/reminder for me of the importance of checking myself. I want to be raw and authentic, but I can't do it at the sacrifice of listening and learning. With that, I really appreciate you reading all of this (if you made it this far) and listening to this episode. I hope you really enjoy it.

In case you looked at the picture before reading this, no I did not interview my cat, although my guest would have actually enjoyed that. In today's episode I had a conversation with my wife, Tiana (who requested our cat Damian be the picture for this episode). Tiana and I have known each other since 7th grade and we've been married for 11 years. One of the reasons I fell in love with her is because of how much she values "being nice and polite." She is and always has been one of the most genuine, polite people I know. But that didn't stop me from questioning and probing it throughout the episode. 

Tiana falls into the category of guest that takes a very simple approach to life. Her life has not been easy by any means. She was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis at 18 years old and it's taken away a lot from her (e.g., her ability to walk, to remember things, to have control over her own body, and lots more). The thing it has not taken away though is her absolute belief that being nice to people is the right thing to do. It feels good and it feels right, so it is as simple as that. She doesn't question it, she doesn't consider other possibilities; she believes it with zero doubt. And she may be right. But for some reason I can't help but question it. It seems too simple in a world that is far too complex and nuanced. So we spent a lot of the episode exploring her approach and seeing if it does actually make sense.

After we finished, I was thinking about our discussion and couldn't help but wonder if maybe I struggle to accept her simple approach/value because I don't naturally feel that way. I appreciate the beauty of it, I aspire to want have the same value, but it's not the reality for me. Therefore I want to believe it is more complicated so that I can feel better about my self? Or maybe this is just evidence of me making things more complicated than they need to be? Either way, I really enjoyed this episode and hope you do too.

One of my favorite types of episodes is when my guest has a really thoughtful, deliberate point of view and we can walk down the thread to try and understand it at a very deep, meaningful level. This was that type of episode. My guest, Dr. Capellan started with her most important value being "living up to her full potential." So we started at the beginning; how do you know what your full potential is and what you are supposed to be living up to? From there we worked through it exploring things like the intuitive voice that tries to guide us, the role our subconscious plays, limiting beliefs (the good and bad of them), and understanding if we are predestined to achieve certain things.

As a way of background, Dr. Capellan is the Founder and Director of Transformational Coaching Certifications and is an internationally recognized and award-winning educator, coach and TEDx speaker. She is a former lecturer at the University of Miami, Herbert Business School, a leadership and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion speaker and trainer, and a certified executive coach. She is currently writing a book, Leadership is a Responsibility, about her career journey experience as a Black Hispanic woman in Academia, the stories of Black women in the workplace, and the need of responsible leaders to create a more equitable society.

It was interesting to learn more about her background as well and some of the experiences that led her to this work. We even leaned in a bit and spoke about racism and discrimination to understand why that person might think those beliefs are them actually living up to their full potential. One of the most useful and interesting parts of the discussion was when Dr. Capellan shared her "best version of yourself" exercise. We've probably heard of some form of this before (kind of gets to the "What would Jesus do?" concept) but, as I always try to do on this show, we pressure tested it to understand how it really works, what challenges it might have, and how it worked for Dr. Capellan personally. 

The more I learn about life the more I learn that almost everything is a paradox. Most of life is constantly trying to balance the duality and tension that exists. If we go too far in one direction that causes problems and if in our efforts to correct that we go too far in the other direction--more problems. The conversation I had with Michelle highlighted this tension in a very real and meaningful way. She started off stating "courage" as her most important value. She wants to be outside her comfort zone, she wants to set big goals no one believes in, and she wants to be unapologetically true to who she is. 

As I learned more about Michelle's past I started to see that balancing act come into view. Michelle had a tough childhood, trying to fit in with her Indian roots/culture while also trying to fit into her American community, trying to live up to the expectations set for her, and even trying to overcome the trauma of sexual assault. As she stated, she felt broken and thought she was incapable of achieving anything. So what did she do? She did the extremely hard work of trying to build herself back up. She committed to building her courage, self-worth, and motivation so she could realize how capable she really was. As she did this though, she found herself running into conflict with her family and spending excessive amounts of money on personal coaching. Her friends and family worried that she wasn't focused enough on relationships or wasn't being financially responsible. Even with the best of intentions, that tension is always there. 

You even hear it pop up as Michelle talks about her background and accomplishments. She is a coach, TEDx speaker, 2X best selling author (with plans for another best selling book soon), and she's been featured on the Tonight Show and done interviews with people like Dr. Deepak Chopra. All amazing accomplishments for anyone, especially someone who had to overcome what she did. But how do balance that tension to not let the aim of achievement and success take over? How do you stop your ego from taking control and taking you too far in that direction? 

I don't know the answer to these questions and Michelle doesn't either (no one does). But what she does have is a willingness to ask the questions. Through her work she is committed to trying to be more aware, be more true to herself, and to use her knowledge to help others (especially teenagers) to increase their confidence and live a life they fully love.

This episode was a really interesting conversation for a couple of reasons. Firstly and most notably, this was the first episode where I had two guests on at the same time (apologies, at times it caused some minor bandwidth issues you might notice). Jon, my original guest, asked Tyler to join as they are both very committed to the same value and movement to help bring equality to all classes of people. 

Jon grew up in the 1950's and was instantly attracted to student activism around topics like racism, the Vietnam war, and unions/workers' rights. Among the many things he was involved in, he spent a lot of time trying to jump start a revolution on the shop floor of the American Motors auto company in Wisconsin. His book, Fighting Times: Organizing on the Front Lines of the Class War (available for a 40% discount on www.jonathanmelrod.com w/ code FIGHTING) describes his journey, including his battle with severe pancreatic cancer (which he believes came from his work in the factory).

Tyler, is in many ways the next generation of activists, following Jon, to try to drive the same movement. Tyler is a lawyer by training but has dedicated his time and skills to trying to create a strong labor union at the Starbucks he works at in the Boston area. Tyler has been inspired by people like Jon and has decided to focus his efforts on creating an egalitarian society. 

The other reason this episode was interesting is because Jon and Tyler are both so committed to their values and the movement, yet they were both completely open to exploring and pressure testing some of their beliefs and underlying assumptions. We explored a lot of the philosophical concepts that underpin their views like, is an egalitarian society even possible, are humans inherently selfish, how much ego is involved in their work, and is it possible there is no "right or wrong" way to live so their issues aren't really valid?

A huge thanks to Jon and Tyler both for sharing their perspectives and providing some insight into what it looks like to be an ardent supporter of the working class movement.

Hajar cares deeply about humanity. She believes in humanity and that we can figure out ways to stop finding reasons to divide ourselves, causing suffering, and hating one another. She is also knowledgable enough to know that it won't be easy. That's why she's dedicated her life as a professor and author to try to better understand humanity and figure this thing out.

This thing is messy though. If I have learned nothing else from doing this show it is that. So we dove into the messiness of it and tried to understand together. We talked about civil rights, American Exceptionalism, poverty, human dignity, and other topics that should be front and center in all of our dialogue but often gets pushed to the side. What I appreciated most in this conversation, was Hajar's humility and willingness to try to understand those she doesn't agree with. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did.

More complete bio from Hajar-

Hajar Yazdiha is an Assistant Professor of Sociology, faculty affiliate of the Equity Research Institute, and a 2023-2025 CIFAR Global Azrieli Scholar. Dr. Yazdiha received her Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and is a former Ford Postdoctoral Fellow and Turpanjian Postdoctoral Fellow of the Chair in Civil Society and Social Change.

Dr. Yazdiha’s new book entitled, The Struggle for the People’s King: How Politics Transforms the Memory of the Civil Rights Movement (Princeton University Press) examines how a wide range of rivaling social movements across the political spectrum deploy competing interpretations of the Civil Rights Movement to make claims around national identity and inclusion. Comparing how rival movements constituted by minority and majority groups with a range of identities — racial, gender, sexuality, religious, moral, political — battle over collective memory, the book documents how the misuses of the racial past erode multicultural democracy.

"What's the value?"-- it is the name of the show and I say it all the time, but I picked that name for a very specific reason. Not only is it the first question I ask each guest, but it is also a play on words because many people might believe that spending over an hour talking to an old friend about philosophy, right and wrong, and the meaning of life is a waste of time. They would ask "what's the value?" in asking these questions, because, as we made clear during this episode, there are not clear cut answers. So why bother asking? It is a fair question but I think the discussion I had with Mike illustrated (at least for me) why we need to ask them anyway. Life is hard, being a good person is hard; shit even figuring out what it means to be a good person is hard. If we have any hope of making it through this life in a way that brings us happiness and does not cause unnecessary pain to those around us, we have to dive head first into these conversations and these questions.  Mike is someone I've known since middle school, but we have not caught up in a long time. I had a sense Mike spent a lot of time thinking about these questions and that he had some opinions on how we as humans could do better. It was really interesting to hear him talk about the evolution he has made (particularly since becoming a dad) and how now his main value is on helping society improve. This isn't the first time we've had that value chosen on the show (which I think is probably a good thing) but it is always interesting to hear each individuals logic and reasoning for that value. We pushed ourselves to really question and test the things we were discussing, using actual scenarios to assess our thinking. We talked about corporal punishment, censorship, religion, and even moral dilemmas like choosing between saving your kid's life or saving all other kids on earth. You will hear it in our voices as we talk about this stuff, that there is a lot of strain and struggle. It is hard to think about these things and try to draw practical conclusions. It is why there is so much division and anger in the world today; this stuff is complicated and nuanced. But what Mike and I seemed to both agree on is that the best way to address that division and anger is being open to discussions like this where we are OK being wrong, we are OK not having all the answers, and we are OK doing the hard work to challenge ourselves to try to be better people (however you define "better"). Thanks a ton to Mike for being so open and thoughtful and thanks to you all for listening. I really hope you enjoy it.

Firstly, apologies for the background noise at times on this one, Tamy-Fee had to do the recording from a public place. I had a sense the discussion would be a good one though, so I wanted to try and get it done. Hopefully it is not too bad.  Tamy-Fee lead off with trust as her most important value and the conversation took some interesting, thought provoking turns from there. What we realized through the discussion was that there were two forms of "trust" at play, little "t" trust and big "T" Trust. For Tamy-Fee the most important thing is living in a world where you have big "T" Trust in the people you engage with. That means you can Trust that those people have done the work to better understand themselves, deal with their insecurities/fears/etc., and be able to rationally make decisions that come from a place of compassion and humanity. She made an important distinction too that this does not mean everyone has to agree and think the same; it simply means that when we disagree we can Trust that each of us are coming from a rational/humane place and can have a genuine conversation about why we disagree. We then explored this a bit with some real life examples, involving, parenting, race, and professional careers. Although I very much like Tamy-Fee's view and the insights we discovered, I do still wonder about the practical implementation of it. As we know, in society today there is a lack of big "T" Trust across many different people and groups. We tried to understand why this might be and in doing so we inevitably run into the problem of "who gets to decide?" Who gets to decide if you've done the "work" effectively, who gets to decide if the approach you take is "humane", who gets to decide if there are certain underlying values that are universal and non-negotiable (and if so, what are they)? Tamy-Fee's hope is that if everyone genuinely does their best to build Trust in themselves and each other, it won't be perfect and we will still have issues, but overall we will be a lot better off. 

Paul stated "Catholicism" as his most important value and to be honest that threw me for a loop at first. It seemed like such a specific thing to pick as a value, that I wondered if he understood the point of my question. His thoughtful approach and explanation quickly allayed those concerns but I then assumed this would be a very closed minded discussion. This might be one of those where it even gets a little combative because the other person is so rooted in their beliefs. I'm not proud of it, but I guess I have a subconscious bias that kicks in when I hear someone say Catholicism is the most important thing in their life. Paul's exact words were that he is "dedicated to living the simplicity and humility of life, gospel and prayer all rooted in the Secular Franciscan Tradition." I hadn't heard of the Secular Franciscan Tradition before but it all sounded very rigid.

But sometimes it is a beautiful thing to be wrong. Paul is definitely a firm believer in the Catholic faith and the gospel does guide his life, but there is very little rigidity to it at all. He believes "faith" is an evolutionary process, ever changing and growing. He believes for you to have true faith it has to be tested and questioned. Most important of all, he believes his duty as a man of faith is to read the gospel and try to understand the underlying essence of what the words are really trying to teach us. In today's world that view is almost radical or blasphemous, but Paul believes God is more than capable (and encouraging) of us taking this approach. 

Once someone gives me permission to question and test their beliefs I believe the concept of this show really shines. The combination of someone who has thoughtful, deep rooted beliefs and an open and curious mind is magical. So Paul and I spent much of this conversation going back forth trying to make sense of Catholicism, humanity, and the world we live in. We discussed the role of authenticity in religious practice, the limits (if any) of God, free will, the purpose of human suffering, and many other really important topics. It will never cease to amaze me how much we can learn when we get out of our own way and have a genuine, open conversation with someone.

Sometimes I find it really insightful and enjoyable to think about common concepts or ideas and dissect them. To try to go beyond the words we normally use to convey their meaning and think about them at a much deeper level. In this conversation with Sofia we ended up doing that with the word "pain." Sofia started off stating "growth through trauma" as her most important value, so that set us down the path of understanding what trauma or pain actually is. So often we think of it as a negative thing (and rightfully so), but how do we make sense of the fact that so much growth and positivity can come from these same negative experiences? 

To step back for a second, Sofia is a law student, researcher, and podcaster (Raw Paradox Talks); but ultimately she is someone who is fascinated by the human experience and wants to understand it as best she can. She is also someone who has experienced a lot of trauma in her life, so when you put those things together you get a really thoughtful, genuine discussion about trauma and the role it plays.

What I found myself thinking about the most after this conversation, as I mentioned up front, is how inadequate words like "pain", "sadness", and "suffering" are in explaining what we actual experience as humans. How do we make sense of the world if some of the basic tenets are unreliable to us? How do we reconcile the fact that we want to feel "good" but must feel "bad" to do so. Most of us agree that pain is a necessary, sometimes beautiful part of life, but we take that idea for granted. How often do we question what kind of world it is that we live in where something that at a very base, primal level seems so bad for us, but is actually a source of beauty? 

If this sounds like really abstract thinking, I get it, because it is. But that was the spirit of the conversation Sofia and I had. Just two people who spend a lot of time thinking about life and the various experiences we've had, trying to make some sense of it.

On this episode, we have Nik Raman--CEO of his own start up, HBS graduate, and a free spirit/thinker. Nik was a great guest for this show because, as he talks about, he sees much of life through this duality lens and he in many ways is the embodiment of that. He has thought really deeply about various aspects of philosophy and the meaning of life, from a spiritual perspective, a scientific perspective, a pragmatic perspective, and many more. Getting the chance to question and pressure test his thoughts was really fun and insightful; and I hope you guys love it as much as I did.

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with Peter, both because I got to learn more about the interesting life he has lived and because we had some good, hearty debates about important philosophical and social topics. As way of background, Peter lived much of his life in Africa, most notably perhaps, in Zimbabwe in 2002 as a large commercial farm owner. At that time due to political changes/strife occurring, Peter was threatened, harassed, and ultimately thrown in prison as he attempted to protect his farm from government take over. This included many instances of direct physical violence and threats against his life. Peter now lives in Canada where he has his own podcast (The Yakking Show) and has spent much of his free time riding horses, running marathons and ultramarathons, and even walked the 250 km of the Camino de Santiago from Porto in Portugal to Santiago in Spain backpacking his way across.

What I enjoyed most about this conversation is that we got to the work of pressure testing, exploring, and learning right out of the gate. Peter started with the value of "courage in your convictions" which lead us to a discussion on what role optimism plays in being courageous. Are people only courageous when they think it is going to work out for them? We used the real life example of Peter's experience in Zimbabwe to better understand how courage works and how we decide when to fight and when it is time to give in. We also spent a good bit of time discussing the potential dangers of having too much courage in your convictions. Does courage and conviction ultimately lead to certainty in your thinking and not allow you to question yourself enough? 

We used the example of the trucker convoy in Canada to better understand the potential risks of courage and conviction. Were the truckers being courageous, were they being irrational due to having too much faith in their convictions, or maybe both? This turned into a discussion where we explored the divisiveness in the world today. If we step back and look objectively, how consistent are we (rhetorical "we", society, media, politicians, etc.) when we assessed the trucker convoy protests vs. black lives matter protests. As I often say, these are deeply sensitive and nuanced topics, so they can be difficult to discuss. But conversations like this one with Peter, where we didn't necessarily always agree but we listened to each other and tried to learn from one another, tells me that we need to keep leaning into these topics if we hope to see positive change in the world.

As Simone puts it, she "leads an ordinary life filled with extraordinary moments." She is an author ("The Extraordinary UnOrdinary You"), mother of 6 (with 3 adopted children), entrepreneur, and speaker; with a goal to help others realize that the small choices matter and we all have the power to inspire others, just by being who we are. The whole idea of being an "ordinary person" who does special things was really interesting to me. There are so many of us who see people who have climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro (which Simone did) and think "that is a different type of person, I could never do that." That fascinates me, because maybe it is true, or maybe it isn't. So I wanted to talk to Simone get her perspective and try to find out.

Interestingly, Simone started with kindness as her value. She believes that we don't have enough kindness in the world and to get more, each of us needs to figure out what makes us special, what makes us come alive, and what makes us happy. It is only once we do that, that we have the ability to make the (sometimes hard) choice to be kind to others. We spoke a lot about the journey she took to build confidence in herself so that she can live in accordance with her value of kindness. Simone spoke about challenges with her weight, lots of internal self doubt, and how ultimately having kids went a long way to helping her become the person she is today.

Towards the end of the conversation we got into some really interesting philosophical territory. We talked about the importance of having someone who believes in you, so that you can start to overcome your own self-doubt; and how very often for people that someone is "God." We also asked the question: if being kind makes you happy, is that OK? By that I mean, if we are really just being kind because it makes us feel good are there any risks or negative implications to that? Simone had some really interesting thoughts/insights on all of it, so big thanks to her for being on the show and sharing her perspective.

I honestly don't know if anyone will ever value and enjoy these types of conversations as much as I do. Maybe all the questioning, probing, and philosophical thinking is not useful and I am part of a very small minority of people who see any merit in it. But for me, this was a truly beautiful conversation that embodies exactly why I do this show. My guest, Deborah, and I spent 25-30 minutes during the second half of the show trying to figure out how to tell if we want out of life (what makes us feel good/happy) is actually something we should feel good about. If that makes your head hurt, I get it, but I really think you should walk with us on this. 

Think about it. Think about something that makes you feel good; why does it make you feel good? Is it because at your core essence of who you are, you value that thing? Or is it because you had some set of lived experiences that conditioned you in a way that made it feel good? Could you ever tell which of those it is? Does it matter? If it doesn't matter, then how do we ever know who we really are and what we really value?

Let me step back for a moment, to give some context. Deborah is an author (The Best Of No Small Thing — Mindful Meditations and Practice Gratitude: Transform Your Life —Making the Uplifting Experience of Gratitude Intentional), speaker, and runs online groups around purpose and gratitude. Deborah's most important value was "mindfulness" and by that she means a very literal mindfulness that focuses on being aware and conscious of how things make you feel throughout your life. She believes focusing on that allows us to unlock more experiences where we can live our values and feel good. To her, life is about observation, trial, error, and improving. 

It is in this vein that we spent time discussing and debating how you do this most effectively. If we need to constantly be observing and understanding ourselves, how far do we take that? How do we ever know if what we learned is the true "us?" I really can't do the full conversation justice in a write up, but a huge thanks to Deborah for sharing her perspective and having such an insightful and lively discussion with me.

In 2018, Jason found out his wife had stage 4 colon cancer. They had two young kids and thought they were doing all the right things in life, so they couldn't understand how this could happen to them. After 9 months of doctor's appointments and treatments Jason found himself at his wife's funeral trying to figure out where to go next. Maybe the key phrase from all of this, that highlights the theme of our discussion, was something one of the nurses said to Jason. She said “Jason, cancer has a way of enhancing your life”.

I find that phrase absolutely fascinating and something I really wanted to dig into. Some people hear something like that and they get angry. "My loved one is dying from a horrific disease and you are telling me my life will be better? F*ck off!" Or some people hear it and they feel hope. "I will never understand why my loved one is dying, but there has to be some light in this darkness. I need to find a way to accept it and enjoy life again." I would never judge anyone for either reaction, but I was really curious to (respectfully) dig into this with someone who has just been through it. I wanted to try to understand how Jason's mind made sense of this situation. And I wanted to push underneath the initial feelings and see what philosophical insights could be gleaned from it.

Jason went through a lot of hard work to try to make his life make sense again. You'll hear him talk about a project him and his kids started called The Hope Kit (https://hopekit.com/) which tries to bring support to other families dealing with cancer. You'll also hear him talk about creating a "healing team" of 15 or so close friends and family that Jason tapped into to help bring him out of his despair. I think there is so much value in hearing firsthand how someone dealt with crippling grief. I hope there is even more value in hearing an honest, probing conversation about it. Does moving on mean you are turning your back on your wife? Does creating a healing team make you weak or self centered? I appreciate Jason a ton for being on, talking through his story, and exploring these questions to try to help others grieve.

Stephen is a globally renowned mystic, spiritual life coach, shaman, tantra master, and author of 12 bestselling, spiritual self-help books. In his words, Stephen aims to help people transform their lives into deep fulfillment, profound self-love, and resounding joy. This was a fun conversation with Stephen, as it focused heavily on the importance of relationships in finding happiness and fulfillment in life. Specifically, Stephen called out 3 values that are most important when it comes to his relationships; loyalty, honesty, and respect.

It was really interesting to discuss this given Stephen's life experiences, including some trauma suffered as a child, a rigid dad heavily focused on achievement above all else, some failed marriages, and a violent attack he suffered that left him with PTSD. These experiences lead him to travel the world for 10 years in search of answers to what life is really about and how he could become more open to genuine relationships. 

We also spent some time towards the end talking about his relationship with his wife and what he thinks makes that so successful. We talked about the importance of finding someone whose underlying values align with yours, which by extension means you must understand yourself and what you value first. As we discussed that is often makes relationships so tough, because we enter into them without really knowing ourselves fully and then just have to hope it will align with the other person. 

Lots of good insights and interesting discussion with someone who has spent much of his life searching for answers to the same questions we debate often on this show. Thanks to Stephen for being on and sharing his story.

Jason is someone who deeply values philosophy and has dedicated much of his life to searching for "wisdom." He has written 4 books, the most recent "Wisdom- A Very Valuable Virtue That Cannot Be Bought" where he combines psychological research, philosophical principles, and personal insights. He also has a website (valuesofthewise.com) where he tracks thousands of quotes from past thinkers and philosophers. As someone who also deeply values philosophy, this was a conversation I was really intrigued to have.

Jason had some adversity in his childhood, which brought some self esteem issues and a lot of questions about who he was and what life was all about. Once he was introduced to philosophy he set out on a life long journey to acquire knowledge and ultimately "wisdom" to address those questions. As you will hear in the discussion he has gathered a lot of knowledge over the years from philosophers, books, movies, etc. At one  point in the discussion, Jason even mentions the idea of "elitism" when it comes to wisdom, as something he is searching for. He believes those who know more should be viewed with a certain honor.

What I found most intriguing about all of this though was trying to define what "wisdom" actually is. We started the discussion trying to define it and we both acknowledged how hard that is. And I think through much of the conversation, and his life, Jason is trying to figure out how to translate all of the knowledge he has acquired into wisdom. But as you will hear that is really hard to do. It is part of what makes philosophy so amazing but also so frustrating. It is really fun to talk and "philosophize" in the abstract about really deep topics, but when you try to really make it practical and apply it to real life it becomes super difficult. 

I actually kind of wish I pushed on that more in this discussion, because I think there is a lot of insights to be uncovered in that challenge. But overall if you like philosophy, this is a good episode for you. Big thanks to Jason for being on and sharing his thoughts.

"God is about relationships not religion." That was a quote from my guest, El, that really stood out for me. We spent much of the discussion exploring what it means to "talk to God" and how this thing we call "religion" was actually never part of God's plan. El believes that God loves all of us and we were created to be in an on-going, intentional relationship with our creator. At this point, if you are an atheist or not very "religious" you may be starting to roll your eyes. But I have to say, even as someone who considers himself an atheist, I deeply enjoy these conversations about faith and God.

This came up numerous times throughout the episode, but the more I learn and grow, the more I realize how thin the line is between science/logic and God/faith. We often like to make it a very binary dynamic where either you believe in God or you believe in science. You either believe the thoughts in your head are explained by a physiological process including neurons and hormones, or you believe those thoughts are a voice from your creator trying to nudge you towards your true purpose in life. What I loved about El, is that she has a very open and exploratory relationship with God. She believes it is possible both could be true. Science does explain the literal mechanics of how we think, but that does not preclude God from existing and being the ultimate energy that generated the mechanics that allow us to form those thoughts.

The reason El has so much passion about her faith and love for God is because she has seen first hand how it changed her life. She went from someone who feared God and was angry with life, to someone who she describes as a "irrepressible silver-lining spotter with a compulsion to say the stuff most other people only say in their heads. A cheerleader & image bearer, helping you see who God created you to be." This was a truly delightful and insightful conversation, that made me think about my relationship with "God" in ways I had not before.

Akash is a fitness enthusiast, aspiring writer, and creator of "The Modern Z" a podcast where he invites students and Generation Z individuals to share ideas, stories and experiences. Akash's value was "true self-awareness" and through the first part of the conversation he explained how various books and the ancient Greek philosophy of stoicism shaped his approach to life. He believed true self-awareness was critical so that you could develop the right amount of skepticism and humility to constantly learn, grow, and ultimately become the best version of yourself.  As Akash explained this it sounded really good, but I wanted us to make it real. The concepts were all good and useful, but they were just concepts. So we pushed further in the conversation to understand, personally for him, what this all meant and how he got to this point in life. Akash shared that when he was younger he was overweight, bullied, and not happy with his life. This lead him to focus on improving his physical well being and once he saw himself transform in that sense, it became much easier to focus on his mental transformation. He no longer wanted to be the class clown who desperately wanted people to like him and instead began to focus on who he really was and what truly mattered to him. This lead to a really interesting debate about what the end goal of life is really all about. I have a strong working hypothesis that at the end of it all, we humans are all seeking some form of joy/happiness/pleasure. Everything we do- helping others, climbing mountains, running marathons, building businesses, meditating in caves-- all of it is done because we want to feel "good." Akash believed chasing happiness was too superficial and life has to be about achieving a deeper sense of fulfillment. To him, life has to be about that moment towards the end of your life when you can look back and feel like you've done the things you were supposed to do and have a deep sense of satisfaction and completeness towards life. I don't disagree with Akash, but I do think the final step in that thread is that you want that feeling of fulfillment because it makes you feel "good." We discussed all of this and kicked around different philosophical beliefs and ideas. Thanks to Akash for being on the show and challenging me to think deeper about my views on life.

"Isn't it a beautiful thing that we get the chance to do more work to become better people?" This was the quote and the sentiment that stuck with me most from my discussion with Denise. We spent much of our conversation talking about how hard it is to truly know and love yourself, how fear and judgement can paralyze us, and how painful it can be to accept the truth about ourselves; and Denise's view on it all was: isn't it beautiful? Isn't it beautiful that we have the ability to view all of these things not as unbearable, overwhelming work; but rather as opportunities to learn and grow? She wasn't in anyway dismissing how hard and ugly the world can be at times, but in spite of all of it she still firmly believes that finding a way to love yourself is the most powerful answer to all of these issues.

As a way of background, Denise was an educator for 31 years (working with many emotionally and developmentally challenged children) and is now an an experienced Empowerment Life Coach and who has worked with hundreds of clients taking them from being hollow, overwhelmed and lost to finding purpose in their lives. As she explained, it was her time as an educator where she had to find ways to understand, connect, and guide children through their own challenges with ego, insecurity, fear, and self hate; that equipped her for the job she has today.

What I loved about this conversation, was that we literally followed the thread of "loving your self" from the beginning and probed, explored, and questioned it all as we worked our way through it. We talked about using nature to help learn about ourselves, how to separate the external noise from your true voice, and the importance of trial and error. Along the way we also asked some philosophical questions like; should we blindly love ourselves no matter what, how do you remove the external noise but not become self centered, and does love of self really help in the most dire of circumstances? This was a really fun and wisdom packed episode, so much thanks to Denise for being on and sharing her perspectives on life.

Anna is a subconscious mind communications and re-coding specialist and the CEO of Quantum Mind Academy. She is also the author of an international bestseller: Escape Your Matrix: How to Master the Game of Life. Anna states that in five steps, she teaches people how the subconscious mind works and why you need to understand and recode it.

I often talk about philosophy on this show, but my first love in trying to understand human nature was actually psychology. I am a firm believer that the subconscious is a fascinating, complicated, and potentially dangerous part of our minds. So I was really excited to talk to Anna and dive into what the subconscious actually is, how it has evolved over the years, and what it means to "recode" it. Anna explained how understanding and working to recode the mind is critical to achieve her most important value, "freedom of the mind." Without that we are somewhat blindly enslaved by "programming" that was set in our adolescence.

Of course I had to get into some of the more philosophical aspects of the subconscious mind too and we had some really interesting discussions around it. Some of this included topics like, is the subconscious trying to protect us or sabotage us and is it a gift or a curse that we have developed a conscious mind that can reflect on the pros/cons of the subconscious? Maybe the most interesting insight from the episode was when Anna explained that our minds are not "us", they are just like our hands or our eyes--they are just tools we use to interact with the world. 

We so often associate ourselves with our thoughts or at the least assume our minds are the most significant part of who we are. To think that it is no more significant than our hand is a really fascinating thought. It does beg the question though, if not our minds, then who is the true "us?" We will save that philosophical discussion for another episode though.

There was a part of me that was really excited to share this episode because it highlighted a topic many people aren't familiar with (Numerology) and Craig and I had a really authentic, at times emotional, conversation about life. There was also another part of me that was embarrassed to share it. Being open minded, truly open minded, is hard. I can only speak for myself, but I find it hard because I want everything to make clear, logical sense. At times I think I use that as a safety net. If I can understand the underlying logic in a clear way, then I don't have to be as worried about people judging me for it. However, the nature of numerology and Craig's value ("understanding myself as the living word") does not easily allow for that and it made it tough for me to process.

Putting it bluntly there were parts of this conversation where Craig shared information about me and my purpose in life and I felt embarrassed to be moved by it. What are other people going to think? A big piece of my identify is rooted in being someone who questions and challenges everything, yet here I am listening to a stranger reading, in effect, my "horoscope" and I am going along with it? Obviously it just felt good to hear him say nice things about me so I must have just abandoned my rational thinking and got caught up in the moment, right?

Well as you listen to this conversation, you will be your own judge, but I started to realize that sometimes the logical explanation and the abstract/meta explanation might not be as different as we think. There was some reason Craig and I connected and he shared the words he did with me. I can't say if that reason is random, arbitrary, or some deliberate act by the "universe", but I can say it happened and it had an impact on me. And maybe that is all that matters.

Interestingly enough, earlier in his life, Craig had a similar sentiment. He had a mind that liked math, because it was concrete and objective. Abstract concepts, spirituality, and those types of things never made much sense to him, because you couldn't objectively quantify them. But after a tragic event in his life, when his best friend died, he found himself trying to make sense of a situation that couldn't be explained in objective terms. That lead Craig to the study of numerology, and he now is a PhD in Metaphysics and has over 40 years experience teaching and consulting as professional numerologist. 

A big thanks to Dr. Craig for being on the show and sharing his experiences and message. After the episode, he went on to do a numerology reading of my name (right around the 1 hour mark), so if you enjoy the main part of the episode, keep on listening for the bonus portion at the end.

Birjan has a degree in Business & Political Science and is a graduate of the Heritage Foundation's Leadership Fellowship Academy. He is also the co-founder of The Providence Networks Foundation, a nonprofit designed to serve at-risk youth globally, and is a research analyst in Morningstar's Development Program. As you will hear in this conversation, Birjan is also a strong proponent that Christian, conservative values are critical to allow America to flourish. Much of this is rooted in Birjan's early life, where he was born into a Bulgarian orphanage under harsh conditions, but was adopted at the age of 2 into a conservative family, which was instrumental in his faith & political formation.

I was excited to speak to Birjan, among other reasons, because of how passionate he is about his values (faith, family, and freedom). Any time someone has spent a lot of time thinking about what means most to them and has reached some strong conclusions about it, I find that extremely interesting. I should say too, coming on to a show like this, where the premise is to question, pressure test, and dig deep into the guest's values can be difficult--particularly in today's social climate. I think it takes a lot of courage to come on and speak about your views and have a good faith discussion to openly explore them.

Through much of our discussion, I wanted to try and understand Birjan's values, but maybe as importantly, I wanted to understand their application today. As you might glean from the discussion, Birjan has some political aspirations and has a strong viewpoint about the issues America faces. I wanted to discuss and understand how his Christian values were underpinning those views. I wanted to understand how he thought faith has worked to help our country (and the world) thrive throughout history, but also discuss how it may have failed at times. So we discussed American history and if there was ever an "ideal" period where we got it all "right." We also discussed if there is an inherent conflict between democracy and Birjan's values/beliefs.

This is one of those conversations where it can be very easy, on both sides of the political/societal spectrum, to listen to this conversation and draw a very quick/simple conclusion. My hope for this episode and the podcast is that, in some small way, it demonstrates a more complex, but more beneficial, path where we actually take the time to deeply listen/hear each other. Where even if we don't agree, we figure out a way to better understand the other person because without that understanding I think the odds of us progressing forward are much lower.

This was probably the most contentious conversation I've had since I've been doing this show. That is somewhat expected given the format change for season 2, but I would honestly love for you the listeners to decide where this conversation broke bad (if at all). I know people that speak in absolutes, use extreme language, and carry an air of certainty can be a trigger for me. Elaine hit on those triggers as she was trying to passionately make her case for why mental health experts should be treated as authorities who can help fix our social and political issues.

What I found super interesting about the discussion was that Elaine had some really insightful and important tools for helping people better understand themselves, their emotions, and their psychological make up; and at the same time I think her emotion, fear, and passion for the topic showcased how hard it can be to actually implement those tools. I tried to have a discussion about that, but either I didn't do a good job of carrying that conversation or Elaine did not want to be questioned in the way I was trying to question her (or maybe both). Either way I still think it was really interesting, even if somewhat combative at times. A big thanks to Elaine for being on and the work she is trying to do.

More detailed bio for Eliane below:

Elaine has been a clinical social worker for 30 years including the Army, which she joined at the age of 42. She's had her own practice for the last 12yrs, but has also worked in hospitals, outpatient clinics and combat zones.

"Changing minds takes more than information and reason. It takes insight, problem-solving and coping skills." She uses a lot of analogies, idioms and 3-step strategies (mantras) that are relatable and useful.

My guest today, Andy, is a mindset coach and human behavior specialist who teaches people how to understand their own behavior and to use their mind to create a life that inspires them (https://www.andycampbell.com.au/). If you're like me, you hear something like that and you wonder what exactly it means. The words sound a little abstract and there are so many "self help coaches" out there selling snake oil that it makes skeptical. Andy actually started the show with a story of a woman suffering from terrible guilt and grief who was "cured" during a workshop he attended (skepticism increasing). So we did exactly what this show is designed to do, we got to work exploring and dissecting this idea.

Listen, I will always believe life is far too complex and our minds are far too flawed for any quick fixes, but what Andy explained to me during the episode was far from a quick fix. He explained an approach that is rooted in fundamental laws of science and math. To sum it up in my words, Andy believes that every event, experience, and person we connect with in our lives is ultimately net neutral. Every positive charge has an equal and corresponding negative charge. So if you are in a relationship and you love your partner and all the amazing things about them, that is very real, but there are also negatives about them too. The importance of this concept is that once you accept it, it becomes much harder to stay upset if that relationship were to end, because you have a more accurate view and can acknowledge what you "lost" was net neutral.

We discussed a lot of things in this episode including authenticity, the nature of values, and even faith vs. certainty, but maybe most interesting was pressure testing this net neutral concept. We explored how far we can take it--how about the death of a child? Are we still sticking to the idea that we shouldn't be upset about the death of a child because their existence was actually just net neutral? It was fascinating and insightful to hear Andy's thoughts, because it illustrated how thoughtful his approach is and (even if you don't agree with it) that he is far from the snake oil salesmen my skepticism might have feared.

Passion is one of my favorite topics to discuss. Logic is my religion because I understand the power of it, but passion is something that fascinates me on a much more visceral/primal level. I can't fully explain passion but I know how attracted to it I am. I know the feeling I get when I am engaged in something I am passionate about. Maybe my guest today, Jeremy, put it best when he said "passion is the fuel of human energy." By that I think he means it is the thing that allows us to do everything we do in life. For us to be motivated or driven to accomplish anything, we need to have passion in our lives.

As way of background, Jeremy is the founder of Universal Imagination, Inc, a multidimensional research and development organization focused on the passion industry. As part of that, he's invented a new utility designed to help people unlock the full potential of their passion. Before starting Universal Imagination, he worked as a technologist at SpaceX, where he assisted the CIO and helped to reignite the public's excitement for space travel (he also collaborated with Elon Musk on a music video celebrating the company's first successful launch).

At the core of Jeremy's work and view of the world, is this idea that we, as humans, have the opportunity to pursue "conscious evolution." Unlike in our past, where we were driven along by nature and the evolutionary process, he believes we have an opportunity now to "take the wheel" and direct the future evolution of our species. If we can tap into our true passion and do the thing that our soul actually wants to do (vs. what we have to do just to survive), it unlocks a whole new world of human potential and possibilities.

I'll be honest the idea of us "taking the wheel" intrigues and excites me, while at the same time completely terrifies me. As Jeremy and I asked on the show, do we think humans are capable of driving our own evolution? Have we shown throughout history that we have can use that type of power to make the world a better place? This was a truly fascinating and dense conversation about passion and humanity.

Allison is an educator, consultant, and writer focused on creating ethical and effective learning spaces in the arts, through her company The Critical Good. She has presented at several state music educator’s conferences and colleges on topics including classroom culture, trauma-informed care, and gender equity in jazz education. She also serves on the board of Keys 2 Success, a non-profit working to remove systemic barriers to music education for the children of Newark, NJ. Also, she is "obsessed with searching for the truth" as she put it. She wants to know how things work, why they work that way, and what she and others can do differently to be better. 

In so many ways as Allison started the show, I felt like she was reading from the script of my own mind. The constant questioning, the searching, the desire to find ways to be "better" all resonates with me so much. What makes people and these conversations so interesting though, is understanding the unique circumstances that got them this approach to life and how they actually make it real every day. As we started to work through it, it made for some really interesting discussion about what the "truth" actually is, how dependent we should be on others for our own fulfillment in life, and if we actually believe searching for the truth is worth it (among other things).

What was cool too about this convo is that for much of it, we used the framing of children/students to explore these points. As a teacher (and teacher of teachers) Allison has a lot of experience with kids and how they try and navigate the impossible maze that is life. So we used that for our scenarios to explore how Allison's value and approach to life can play out. She really made me think a lot and there is nothing more I appreciate than that.

Byron came to the show saying one of the most provocative and intriguing things someone can say to me. He said he knew the real answer to one life's important questions. More specifically, he said he could tell me "the real reason negative emotions exist." I geek out on those type of statements, because firstly, negative emotions often suck. Fear, anger, sadness, shame, guilt--they do not feel nice, so having a true understanding of them seems pretty useful. Secondly, I don't believe anyone has the "real answer" about anything, so this made my Socrates spidey sense tingle.

Fortunately, Byron (who is a mindset coach and psychotherapist- https://www.byronathene.com/) is a pretty reasonable person. He quickly hedged to say it is possible he is wrong, but based on his analysis, he believes he has the answer. Good enough for me, so we dove in and started exploring his theory. 

To cut to the chase, Byron believes we developed negative emotions as babies because we had no other way to communicate that we had a need (e.g., food, medicine, warmth, etc.). From an evolutionary perspective, we needed these emotions to express our needs, get them met, and continue living. The problem, and the major philosophical insight, that Byron tries to work with his clients on, is that we were never able to turn off this programming. Now as adults, we still implicitly believe that negative emotions will help us get things, but now we use them to try to get things we want/desire vs. things we need.

I am not sure if Byron has THE answer on negative emotions, but we did spend a lot of time examining some competing theories to check. This episode took the pressure testing concept to a whole new level. We talked about negative emotions being functional for motivation and/or being necessary for us to experience positive emotions; and all of this led to some really thought provoking philosophical discussions. What role does suffering play in our lives? Would we better off if we never felt negative emotions, no matter how bad the tragedy? All super interesting things to consider, so a huge thanks to Byron for sharing his views. 

As always, for those interested in getting more philosophy in their lives or just want to support the cause, please check out my Patreon page- patreon.com/whatsthevalue

Nicole is a licensed Mental Health Counselor that helps people use ketogenic dietary therapy as a treatment for mental illness and neurological issues. She uses a variety of nutritional and functional methods of treatment in her work and provides evidence-based psychotherapy, which supplements the years she spent as a "traditional" counselor. In this context, "traditional" means a counselor who practices with a focus on behavioral, cognitive-behavioral, and dialectical-behavioral therapy, with medication as a major tool to help patients.

This ties to Nicole's value of integrity, because she believes there are too many pharmaceutical and food companies that aren't being honest with their customers. It is not that everyone involved is evil or deliberately trying to hurt others but, for various reason, the result has been a system that is more focused on profit than integrity. Perhaps the leaders of these companies actually think they are doing some good (providing drugs to improve mental/physical health, low cost food options for impoverished people, etc.) but have lost sight of the big picture and what really matters. 

This type of topic and line of discussion is ripe with assumptions, biases, and blind spots. We don't actually know what is going through the heads of the CEOs or doctors involved. Science very rarely has conclusive evidence, so even the various studies that seem to support these claims can be refuted with other studies that provide counter evidence. So Nicole and I factored all of that in and spent a good bit of the discussion trying to entertain the possibility that there was more to the story than we were aware of. 

What I really appreciated about Nicole's approach was that, even though it was evident she has a lot of passion and frustration around this topic, her goal wasn't to prove she was right or that nutrition is the answer to all of our problems. As she stated, she just wants people to be more informed about what they are putting in their body and what options they have for potential treatments.  

Brian is a strong believer in libertarianism and the idea that both parties have their obvious flaws therefore the only thing that makes sense is minimizing government and allowing people to be free to be who they want to be.

The idea of libertarianism is always intriguing to me theory, so it was really interesting to pressure test and examine what it really means, how it works, and how tolerant it actually is.

Bio Provided by Brian:

Brian McWilliams is a native Philadelphian currently living in Los Angeles. He’s a communications and public relations expert, comedian and writer. His passion and concern for liberty was realized during Ron Paul’s 2008 campaign, which shed light on the troubling initiatives our government was embracing that infringed on the tenets that the United States was founded upon. Brian is the host and producer of “Mean Age Daydream,” the Lions of Liberty Network’s weekly Wednesday look at current events, culture and comedy through a liberty lens.  

Will is the CEO of XPogo, a company bound together by a love for Extreme Pogo (yes pogo, like pogo sticks) and a desire to spread the sport across the world. I could probably stop there and you would get the sense that this is a unique and interesting conversation. But if you are like me, you might be curious to learn more about this person and want to to understand their values, how they see the world, and what lead them to this position. For me personally, this conversation was even more interesting because I used to work with Will in a traditional corporate strategy job and I have always been fascinated by his decision to walk away to lead a "pogo stick" company. The conversation and the "story" did not disappoint. Will's most important value was creating meaningful stories and experiences in his life. It became apparent very quickly that, if nothing else, he doesn't want his life to be boring. He wants life to be interesting, he wants to try new things, and he wants to embrace his unique, quirky side. It was really interesting to hear how self reflective and deliberate Will is about living in accordance with his value. It was also cool to hear how his upbringing, in Santa Fe, New Mexico, played such a pivotal role in who he is. As he put it, he grew up in a small town full of "weirdos" (meant lovingly), so for Will the idea of "normal" never really existed. He had no reference point for it. All he knew was people who liked all sorts of different things and weren't afraid to embrace it. As I listened to Will speak there was something so compelling and intriguing about his approach to life. Honestly, I think I've spent the last few years (if not most of my life) trying to figure out if that is the life I wish I could live or if it was just the life I wish I wanted to live. I know it makes me scratch my head too. I think we all have to figure out our own journey and what matters most to us (hence the point of this entire podcast), but my big take away from talking to Will is that we should all feel as confident and empowered as he does to live the lives that make us happy to be alive. We shouldn't be hampered by what "society" thinks is "normal", we should figure out what we want and then go after it.

Mitchell is a career military man first enlisting in the Marines and later being commissioned in the Army. He has multiple combat tours as an Infantry Platoon Leader in Iraq, and later, as an Infantry Company Commander leading the last fighting force out of Iraq in 2011. He has been awarded numerous medals and badges for his service and even after his military career has continued to serve, as a Financial Planner, helping hundreds of soldiers (and others) to improve their financial well being.

Mitchell started us off with "life time learning" as his most important value because he believes learning from the experience, wisdom, and mistakes of those that came before us is an amazing gift. It was really interesting to hear Mitchell's own story and how he didn't follow this value for much of his life. He was raised to believe you have to figure things out for yourself. Despite appreciating some of the benefits this brought him, this is not the approach he takes with his own daughter. He tries to teach her as much as he can, so she won't have to go through the same struggles that he did. 

This led to a fundamental discussion about why we value grit, resiliency, and mental toughness so much; yet many of us strive so hard to try to make our kids' lives easier. How do we make sense of that contradiction, that we are happy we went through struggles in life, but we don't want our kids to go through the same thing? Is it that we really believe it is better for them or do we just think they're not able to handle the suffering we've been through? We got into all of these questions and many more including topics like vulnerability, gratitude, enlightenment, and the unfairness of life.

A big thanks to Mitchell, firstly for his service, but also for being so open about his military experience and how it shaped the way he sees the world today.

Sue is a parent mentor, child behavioral specialist, household harmony transformer, and author (Secrets to Parenting Without Giving a F^ck). She's worked with parents for 20+ years helping them end tantrums, sidestep power struggles, eliminate back-talk, neutralize sibling fights, and build a lifelong relationship of trust with their kids. For anyone who has kids or has interacted with kids you know those are some heavy claims. We can debate if parenting is the hardest job in the world, but I would argue it is likely the most complex. There are so many challenging aspects of trying to raise a young human, who you are responsible for but can't fully control, when you are still trying to figure out life yourself. 

Sue started in a beautiful place though, to explain why she thinks she's "cracked the code" of parenting. She stated her most important value as "self-awareness" because she believes the only way to do this impossible job effectively is to have an extreme level of awareness about yourself, your kids, and your situation. That awareness allows you to balance the job of instilling your wisdom and experience into your kids, without trying to control them or adding your baggage onto them. We talked specifically about some of the concepts from her book, like "parenting in advance", "partnership parenting", and approaching your kids as "adults in training." 

It was really interesting to hear the insights and the lessons she's learned from being a mom of four, with an active military spouse. What I enjoyed most though, as I always do, was pressure testing Sue's approach and concepts. She was the type of guest who was totally game to debate and explore her ideas. We even hit head on the "elephant in the room", of balancing the humility required to have true self-awareness with the confidence and conviction required to write a book and claim you've figured out the best approach to parenting. Is it possible Sue really has the answers and other parents who see it differently are just getting it wrong? A huge thanks to Sue for being so open to discussing these topics, bringing so many insights to the conversation, and exhibiting, in real time, what self-awareness looks like.

Radell's mission is to have authentic conversations, expand people's perspectives, and find a way out of the toxic political discourse that exists in our world today. He hopes to use his podcast (https://www.purplepoliticalbreakdown.com) to show people that you can use logic, reason, and understanding to work through some of the most complex and nuanced issues that society faces.

This approach obviously resonates with me and I enjoyed digging into some of today's political issues to see how Radell's approach might help solve them. Maybe even more so, I enjoyed getting to better understand him, his value system, and why he finds this work so important.

He is also another in a long line of guests who has optimism that humanity can be better. Sadly, I find myself more pessimistic as time goes on, so we also spent time debating if we have any chance of figuring this thing out or if we are just doomed.

More complete bio from Radell-

Navigating the vast amount of bouncing around the political spectrum my entire life I have finally figured something important out. It doesn't matter. I've been religious, been in the military, went to a liberal school and all in all none of the political biases matter. We shouldn't let toxic discourse cloud our judgement and find a solution through logic and conversation. In pursuit of this mission I created this podcast to focus on these important conversations.

Larry is a Husband, Father, Marine Veteran, Entrepreneur, Teacher and Political Activist. His mission is to help people find happiness through community and purpose, and as he sees it, that often happens by overcoming bad policy decisions in government. He was the 2018 Libertarian New York State Gubernatorial candidate and garnered about 100,000 votes (more than any previous Libertarian candidate) and is running again for New York State Governor this year.

I really enjoyed getting to talk to Larry, given his beliefs and aspirations. A lot of what this show is about is to try and really dig in to understand who the guest really is. Obviously it starts with what they value, but also goes to how they think, what they are motivated by, how aware they are, etc. So it was really cool to have that type of conversation with someone looking to achieve what Larry is looking to achieve.

He started the conversation off with "empathy" as his most important value. He had a unique take on empathy, in that it is valuable because it allows for more efficiency in solving the big problems we are trying to solve as a society. That naturally led to a conversation about government and the issues Larry sees. We debated some real life scenarios of how his policies would try to address issues like over spending, misaligned incentives, lobbyism, the military industrial complex, and much more.

What I found really interesting about all of this was how pragmatic and incremental Larry's approach is. Most politicians today promise perfection or some utopia that will solve all of the world's problems. Larry's view is, "if you measure my plan against perfection, I'll lose every time" because perfection isn't realistic. But if you are looking for progress and improvement then you should seriously consider his pragmatic approach. Everyone will not agree with his policies or views and that is OK; but it is hard to argue that we are not better off with thoughtful, empathetic leaders in charge rather than dogmatic, unrealistic ones we mostly see today.

When Tamara and I first connected and I heard about her podcast "The Recovering Liberal", I thought this should make for a juicy conversation. There is a part of me that loves talking to people with really strong views, to see if we can find some common ground even though we see the world so differently. I also enjoy the "intellectual sparring" part of it, that usually comes with those types of emotionally charged conversations. What I got in this discussion with Tamara was so much better than that though. Rather than an irrational, extremist who thought their view of the world was exactly right, I found myself talking to one of the more rational, humble, and open minded people I've had the pleasure of speaking with on this journey. 

I know that doesn't always make for all the exciting sound bites and social media buzz, but it does make for a much deeper, more insightful, learning experience. Even more so because Tamara has such a self awareness about her own personal journey, which included struggles with addiction, shifting away from an extreme liberal view point, and ultimately identifying the pursuit of truth as her most important value. The words she uses are " the perspective I bring is quite simply how an ordinary person begins to explore beyond headlines and really understand the heart of these issues, so that they can make more informed decisions for their own lives and choices." I would argue there is actually something quite extraordinary about that approach to life.

We covered a lot of ground in this discussion and explored what pursuing the truth looks like for Tamara. We talked about the subjective nature of truth, how having a moral high ground can be dangerous, the difference between liberals and conservatives, and explored some recent political stories (e.g., attack of Nancy Pelosi's husband, January 6th, Tulsi Gabbard etc.). The thing that was consistent throughout the discussion (despite my probing and pressing) was Tamara's consistent approach to be as objective and humble as she could be. Although it wasn't the conversation I expected, I thoroughly enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Shane is a good friend of mine and someone with an approach to life that I admire. He has been successful in the traditional sense; did well in school, is an executive at a fortune 500 company, has a beautiful family, etc. But the thing I really admire about him is his confidence and authenticity. I should say the confidence he has in his authenticity. As someone who spent most of my life as a people pleaser, I have always valued other people who can walk that line of being confident and true to who they are, without coming off as arrogant or an asshole-- that is Shane. It speaks directly to his value of "balance" too. He believes the key to life is maintaining balance in everything we do, not least of which is how we form our opinions and beliefs. Shane tries not to get too extreme or let his emotions run too hot, because he recognizes he doesn't know everything and that most things in life are nuanced.  This made for an interesting episode because typically people who value balance lack conviction. They can see the good and bad in almost anything. Shane even had some concern that it wouldn't be a popular episode, since these days people seem to strongly gravitate towards extreme views. I actually found it somewhat refreshing though. I think a lot of us see the appeal of being more balanced but we struggle to do it. What do we do if we see something we don't like or is causing harm? How do we judge others if we don't know for sure how they got to their conclusions or beliefs? Does it ever make sense to get emotionally charged up about any issue? All of these questions put the idea of balance to the test, so Shane and I tried to work through the philosophical logic of it all. When the convo wraps up stick around for a few minutes of afterthoughts too. Shane and I stayed on and dug a little deeper into why values matter and pondered if "feeling good" is actually the one true value that guides all of our lives. And if it is the thing we all value most, is that OK? Is that inherently a problem for humanity or is it a good thing to strive for? I thought this was interesting so I threw it in as a little bonus to the episode. As always thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy it.

Talissa’s tag line on her profile caught me instantly, it read: “I am a documentary photographer obsessed with experiencing and capturing the world before it disappears.” There was so much about this I found interesting and wanted to hear more about, not least of which was that “obsessed” word. There is such an emotional charge in that word that strikes right at the core of this show. It was clear what she valued most, and I wanted to learn more about it from her perspective. In the conversation Talissa explained why she is so obsessed with documenting nature, what it feels like in her mind when she captures a great shot, the struggle and the pain that goes into her art, and the reason she relishes the fear of failure. I deeply enjoyed this conversation because I find it fascinating to get inside the mind of an artist and understand their passion. But I also enjoyed it because the parallels to the philosophy of life are so palpable. Not all of us are artists or photographers, but Talissa’s journey still rings true for everyone that is trying to figure out their purpose in this world. Selfishly for me, I also really appreciated the insights I took away for this podcast. The same feeling Talissa seeks, when she captures a great photograph, is the same thing I am seeking when I have an authentic conversation with someone about what matters to them most. Her perspective on the necessity of pain, struggle, doubt, and fear to achieve that moment, was a beautiful reminder for me. It reminded me not to run away from those feelings, but to embrace them—because as torturous as they can be at times, they are the reason life has any meaning at all.

Catherine founded Civility Partners (a strategic HR consultancy that helps companies build positive cultures) in 2008 as a result of working in a toxic environment. She’s written three books the first of which is widely recognized as a valuable guide to prevent work place bullying; BACK OFF! Your Kick-Ass Guide to Ending Bullying at Work. 

I had the chance to hear Catherine on another podcast before our conversation and I was super impressed. There are a lot of people who speak on the topics of bullying, toxic environments, and the damage it all causes; but what impressed me so much about Catherine was her depth of understanding of the human psyche. She wasn't just saying bullying was bad and providing superficial tips to fix it, she was explaining at a deep, fundamental level why people become bullies, the challenges they have in trying to improve, and proven methods to make a change.

Sometimes I worry people think I like to question and debate just for the sake of it, but discussions like this one actually highlight the real reason. I am on a desperate search for answers and insights to be a better person, so when people appear to have a true understanding of human nature I need to probe and dissect their thoughts to understand it as fully as I can. I want to understand how someone with a style like Steve Jobs could be so successful, if bullying can be as net negative as we all seem to believe it is. I want to understand how we define a "safe" work environment when the term "safe" is so subjective and might differ for everyone. I want to dig into all the crevices and try to pull out any valuable insights that can help us be better.

Fortunately, Catherine delivered and had some really interesting takes on all of the questions I asked. We followed some threads and explored together how to make sense of this complicated, nuanced topic of bullying; and I personally had a lot of fun doing it. Big thanks to her for being on and the work she does.

This episode feels fitting coming off of the Christmas holiday, since my guest Johnathan and I spent a good bit of the episode talking about Jesus Christ. Johnathan was a triple major in college in Philosophy, History and Political Science and currently hosts his own podcast, "The Truth Of The Matter Is" (https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1575310563 - focused on providing an honest, contextual, historical and philosophy view of the Bible). I found that mix of majors really interesting because each of those disciplines are very much focused on trying to find answers. That is the journey Johnathan has been on, spending most of his life searching for the truth. It was only when he found the bible and the teaching of Jesus though, that he was convinced he found the truth.

Johnathan's value was bringing love, light, and truth to the world by living the word of Jesus. As you will hear from the first 20 minutes, he is extremely well read and can quote specific verses from all the books of the bible. Johnathan isn't someone who just talks about religion and faith, he appears to embody it every day. His goal in life is to be a good and faithful servant to God/Jesus. While I completely respect that, words like servant, worship, obedience-- words so common when talking about a relationship with God-- never sat right with me. Something about them made it feel like "religion" is missing the point. 

We used a hypothetical (and provocative) scenario to explore this.  If Jesus were here today and was given 2 options:

1. His name is recognized by all, his message is spread around the globe, and there are millions of people who worship and celebrate his very existence — but we still struggle as humans to fully live into his teachings; or
2. His name is never mentioned again, he is forgotten, has no relevance in history, and is worshipped by no one — but his teachings are embraced by everyone in the world…

I have to believe, if what we are told about him is true, that he wouldn’t even consider the first option. The idea of majoring on recognition and worship above the ultimate goal is inconceivable. To be able to think through all of this with someone as knowledgeable, curious, and passionate as Johnathan was a real pleasure.

Dominion is a Nigerian immigrant who was born not breathing and was physically abused throughout his childhood, both in school and at home. As you'll hear him describe it, he entered this world just trying to survive and viewed much of his early life as living in hell. Through faith in God and a lot of hard work though, he was able to change his mindset and change his life. He is now a college graduate who played division 1 football and has 2 businesses, who is chasing his dream towards the NFL and greatness. It is hard for him to even imagine sometimes the life he lives now, but it is a testament to believing in yourself and your higher purpose. What I really enjoyed about this conversation is that we got to explore two really important (and difficult) aspects of trying to improve. The first is how to find your purpose and motivation to actually make a change? It sounds really good to say you felt like you were living in hell and now you're in a better place, but what does that really mean? How do you actually do that and make it real? Among other things Dominion described, it was really interesting to hear him say that as a kid he honestly didn't even know being "great" or "happy" was an option, he just thought life was all about survival.  Then the second aspect of improvement we explored was the philosophical question of: is grinding your whole life to reach your goals actually worth it? That might sound like a stupid question to ask, but I think it is important. Dominion works really hard. He believes you have to be crazy to achieve the important things in life, because it is so hard and so much work. So we talked about if there is any fear in that; if there any fear that you do all that work and one day realize it actually wasn't worth it? This is important because I know for many people listening (any myself) the fear of putting in all the work and not getting the outcome you want is one of the biggest deterrents.  With all that said, a story like this one, if nothing else has to be inspiring. We may not all see the world exactly like Dominion does, we may not aspire towards the same things; but seeing someone make a deliberate decision to create a better life and then do the work to create it is something we can all learn from. 

Keith is a certified Crisis Specialist, marriage counselor, award-winning author, and educator who listens and helps address emotional problems through Person-Centered Counseling. This conversation was packed with so many interesting insights, philosophical debates, and reflections on human nature, that it is hard to sum them all up. Keith is someone who clearly has spent a lot of time trying to understand people and the world we live in better. Interestingly, his earlier life was spent in a much more selfish way. He was a misogynist and womanizer, whose main goal was to make himself happy. But thanks to his own hard work, his value of "transparency", and some good foundations set by his mother and grandmother, he radically transformed his life. Some of the really intriguing concepts that came up in this discussion were centered around Keith's view that there is a battle between good and evil in the world; and those on the "good" side have a responsibility to step up and make the world a better place. For those who have listened before, you may know that I tend to believe people are all generally good but our minds lead astray to do bad things. So Keith and I explored that concept to try and understand why some people would "choose" to do harm. We also tried to understand how you would know if you were on the "good" side. As I mentioned, it was a packed episode, so we also touched on race, politics, and some other relevant issues.  Towards the end of the discussion, Keith made a really interesting point about outcomes. There are so many factors at play and the world is so complex that it can feel overwhelming. Sometimes it is easy to get lost in it all and lose your purpose. Keith's point was that you should focus on the outcomes as your guide to tell you if you are being honest with yourself and on the right track. I found this really interesting. If you apply it to our politicians, as an example, many of them feel like they are doing the good work to help the country. Yet we sit here today, seemingly as divided and contentious as ever. If they look at the outcome, of where the country actually is, they would be really hard pressed to convince themselves that they don't need to be better (rather than just pointing the finger at the other side). A big thanks to Keith for spending time talking with me and sharing so much of his perspective and knowledge.

Terry is the Owner/CEO of Jaffe, a full-service marketing, branding and public relations agency for the legal industry. As you will hear in this conversation though, Terry believes we are so much more than just our jobs/titles; and it is critical for businesses to realize that allowing their employees to be their "whole selves" is a must have in the work place. At first glance this sounds like a nice concept, but could also seem a bit generic (maybe even idealistic), as these words are thrown around a lot these days. What I found super interesting about this discussion though, was how thoughtful and pragmatic Terry was in thinking about this shift.

There is a strong theme throughout this conversation around evolution and transformation. Terry sees a world where we have the opportunity to actually get it "right." And by right he means actually caring about people above profits. Actually doing the work to ensure diversity and inclusion aren't just social justice buzzwords, but are ingrained deep into the culture of every successful organization. Actually allowing empathy into the work place so that people can feel empowered to show up as who they really are. The kicker to all of this, is that Terry believes this transformation will actually increase productivity, morale, and profit.

For many people reading this, that sounds amazing. You might even say too good to be true. So we spent a lot of time exploring these ideas and trying to understand how realistic they are. If it is true that we are evolving to an objectively better approach to society/business, then why has it been such a struggle to get here? Can businesses actually deliver results without forced conformity? What happens when my "whole self" runs into conflict with someone else's "whole self"? 

My cynical side wonders if human nature would ever actually allow this evolution to occur. But hearing Terry explain why he thinks now is actually the time did leave me more optimistic than usual. There was a deep logic paired with the humanity/empathy/kindness that Terry spoke of, which made me think maybe we have a chance.

Michelle is an author, speaker, psychic medium, and teacher and whose goal is to guide others through their spiritual growth. With the knowledge she obtained through her life-long work with children, she became passionate about helping intuitive children embrace their gifts, most notably with her new book, Spiritual Nurturing for Intuitive Children: Training Parents to Enhance Their Psychic Child's Abilities. I really appreciate Michelle coming on the show, especially knowing that I ask a lot of questions and probe/challenge so much. I say that because I can imagine psychic mediums get a lot of skepticism and challenging of what they do on a regular basis. So I appreciate her letting me ask some of the questions I've always had about the field and her being so open and willing to discuss her experience. As you might imagine we spent a bit of time understanding what exactly it meant to be a psychic medium. I got to ask some of the questions many of us likely have like, how do they actually speak to you, what was it like when you first realized you had this ability, how was it telling your friends/family, etc.? We also talked about where science and religion fit into the picture; and if being a medium is in conflict with both of those things? What's interesting is, you can sub out "psychic medium" and replace it with so many other life styles of people I've spoken with and the root concepts are the same. It ties back to Michelle's value of "speaking your truth." It can be at differing levels for sure, but ultimately all of us struggle with trying to figure out who we are and how we can live in the world as our authentic selves.  One of the more interesting parts of the discussion was when we talked about Michelle's own skepticism of her abilities. She noted that she never really questioned it at all because it always felt so real and authentic to her. My immediate reaction is to see that as a bad thing, because we always have to question otherwise we can't trust we are being honest with ourselves. However, Michelle's response and her value (speaking your truth) get to the core of what can make it so difficult to be authentic. If you challenge yourself too much and let doubt seep in, it can feel impossible to ever really speak your truth. Sometimes taking that leap of faith to embrace who you are, regardless of what the logic or those around you say is the best way to live. I still struggle with that concept a bit, but as I talk to more people like Michelle I do truly see the value of it. 

There were so many things I enjoyed and found insightful about this conversation with Patty. The thing that stands out most is how complex life is, and in this case, how complex Patty's life is; but then getting a raw, behind the scenes look into how she tries to process it all. Patty went to UC Berkeley, is a molecular cell biologist, an executive at a company that develops virus testing (kind of an important thing right now), went to Harvard Business School, and cares deeply about her career and the impact she makes on the world. At the same time though, Patty is a wife and mother of 3 young kids, who stated "family" as the value that matters most to her, and most nights is just trying to figure out how to get her kids to go to sleep. As is true for many of us, regardless of where we went to school, what job we have, and what are family dynamics are, Patty is trying to figure out how to optimize her life with all these different, and at times competing, priorities. What was cool about this episode in particular is that we got such a good view into Patty's analytical, science driven mind. She talked about the ways she tries to assess problems, understand the facts, mitigate risks, etc. but she was also completely honest about how sometimes life is just a shit show and you try to survive as best you can. There is something so real and relatable in that. She also spoke about the unique challenges and frustrations that come with being a mom and a driven, career oriented person. It's not easy to be reflective about these things and it is even harder to be honest about those reflections; so I am super grateful to get a chance to hear Patty do both. I really hope you enjoy this episode and it gives you some sense of comfort that we are all doing the best we can to make our way through this unbelievably complex, messy, but beautiful world.

Brian is a retired police lieutenant with 33 years experience, a long-time police trainer, and an author with a passion for "defending police officers against dangerous false narratives being perpetrated against them." These are the conversations that I get most excited and nervous about. This topic is so important and so emotionally charged, that I feel a burden to do it justice. My whole intent of this show is to try to learn from each other and maybe find ways to solve problems like racism, police brutality, and violence against police. As I listened back to this conversation with Brian there were times I was proud that we lived up to that aim, then there were a few times where I thought I pushed back against his views too much, and then there were other times where I thought I didn't push nearly enough. That is what makes these conversations so hard.  Overall though, I was really grateful that Brian came on the show to talk about his value of "correcting misinformation about police." I started the show by trying to get a baseline on Brian's views, how he thought, and his beliefs on racism in policing today. I thought Brian was reasonable and genuine in explaining his points. And listen, to state the obvious: Brian is clearly pro-police given his background and therefore is very sensitive to the potential risks they face. At the same time though, it was apparent that he was trying to be open to acknowledging some of the issues with police today and that he may have his own biases and blind spots.  One of the big themes of the show was the realization that some seemingly contradictory things were likely both true and our failure to acknowledge that leads to many issues. For example, it is possible that some police are heroic and deserve our praise for putting their lives on the line to protect us, but it is also true that some police are racist and deserve to be held accountable (and sometimes the same person falls into both). Or, it is true that some police officers would never deliberately go out to hunt down black men and terrorize them, but it is also true that those same police officers could be acting on some subconscious bias that leads them to judge black men differently than white men and ultimately results in their harm/death. Brian and I discussed all of these things in a good faith effort to try to be better.  I understand that at the same time we have the luxury of having this conversation to try to get better, there are still people being killed, so the urgency is super high. That is why there is so much pressure to get these conversations right. But we can't let perfection be the enemy of progress. Hopefully we all continue to learn, grow, and love each other.

My guest, William, creates content and shares his views on self-improvement, social issues, pop culture, and many other topics (https://www.youtube.com/@talknscroll/videos). He came to the show with a strongly held belief around taking ownership/accountability of your outcomes in life. He discusses this often in his content, so we explored this belief and used the issue of sexism/the patriarchy to make it real.

Season 2 of the show is still about questioning, exploring, and seeking to understand different perspectives/beliefs. Through out this episode we tried to better understand the value of taking ownership, how difficult it can be to actually practice, and when, if ever, we are allowed to blame someone else for problems in the world? A big thanks to William for being on as the first guest of season 2 and be willing to question one of his strongly held beliefs in a productive way.

See a more complete bio for William below:

William is an up and coming public speaker, podcaster and content creator (Talk N Scroll). His content focuses primarily on self-improvement through the lens of social commentary and discussing topics around pop culture issues, relationships, sexism, finances, and a lot more. William is also an educator with over 10 years of experience in K-12, college and adult education; and he is a proud veteran of the United States Navy.

My guest, Kent, believes humanity is in a crisis but he is very optimistic that we have the tools and knowledge to overcome that crisis. Much of the problem is rooted in our attachments (or lack thereof) during childhood. We are all damaged children who grow up to become damaged adults and the work Kent is doing is to help us figure out how to heal that damage and be better going forward.

If you've listened to the show before, you know I tend to take a much more cynical view of humanity. I look around and see all the damage Kent speaks of, but I don't see any reason to believe that we, at scale, can figure it out and heal ourselves. Life is too complex and our minds are too incapable of handling it.

So Kent and I spent some time discussing his work, why he does it, and why he thinks it will actually help humanity.

A more complete bio from Kent below-

Kent Weishaus’ new book, “Stop Breaking Down: The Secret to Avoiding Overwhelm and Crack-Up,” shows us how to step back, take the high ground, observing our biological and mental processes within the context of the overwhelming demands of our 21st century world. Kent is a licensed clinical social worker in private practice in California. He has worked in mental hospitals, community clinics, schools, and served as an adjunct professor at Cal State Los Angeles, teaching social work theory and practice classes to master degree students.

I have been talking a lot lately about the way I want to expand the concept of this podcast to work with leaders and those in positions of power. At the root of it is trying to help leaders better understand and control their own ego. That is a trendy phrase these days, so I wanted to really dig into what I mean when I say it, why it seems so impossible to do, and even spend some trying to see if I even have control over my own ego. 

Kamal is a photographer who wanted to capture the essence of what really was happening in America in 2020. He wanted to use photography to let all of the division, hate, fear, anger, sorrow, love, compassion, and humanity show its true self--the true story of what was underneath it all.

As you'll hear, he is also just a really authentic, thoughtful, self-aware person. It was fascinating to hear his stories, how he became so passionate about photography, and what he learned about humanity as he created his book, Black Astronaut.

I love talking to photographers because most of them are natural observers. They feel compelled to look at the world around them and see what is going on. Those are the types of people I want to hear from because very likely they've seen things I haven't, and I can learn from them.

A more complete bio from Kamal is below:

I am Kamal X, a professional photographer that has been documenting my travels throughout the world since 2015. Photography found me at a time in my life where I felt confused and voiceless. I wasn’t sure of where I was internally and what direction I wanted my life to go. I welcomed my challenges and I found myself drawn to creating images that evoke emotions rooted in the many universal elements of the human experience.  My goal is to tell stories from all walks of life and give a raw voice to the world we live in, through compassion and honesty. 

Zach is the host of DIY Wealth, a podcasting platform focused on helping people merge financial freedom with a life well lived. He wants to use his experiences to help others engineer a life where they can have enough money to do the things they care about. That seems so simple and so obvious. That is what we should all be working towards, living a life that actually makes us happy. Yet somehow most of society is on another track. We spend so much of our time chasing money as a means to happiness, rather than just doing the things we enjoy. I find that concept fascinating. How is it we could have seemingly gotten things so twisted?  In this conversation we explored the philosophical and sociological reasons why this might be the case. Is capitalism ultimately to blame? Is it just human nature that we always want more and it was inevitable that we would end up here? Part of the reason seems to be that many of us just don't experience life enough to make a good decision. We get caught up in the grind of life and forget that doing things we love right now is even an option. That is a scary thought when you really think about it. So Zach has chosen to spend his time trying to help people unplug from that grind and obtain true wealth. That means wealth in terms joy, love, happiness, health, etc., not just money. As we hear with many of the guests on the show, this drive to help others comes from a form of empathy. Zach has been broke and he has also worked his ass off to make 7 figures, but in both cases he was still unhappy with life. He knows what that dissatisfaction feels like and how helpless it can be, so he feels compelled to help others. Understanding this perspective on Zach helped me to appreciate him as much more than just another financial advisor. Sure he does give people financial tools and tips, but the value Zach is trying to create is much deeper and more meaningful. Like so many of us, he wants to do his part to help change the world for the better and he believes this is the best way he can do that.

We are all one. We should love every human because we are all connected. Love is everything. Psychedelics are crucial to open our minds to understand the universe and ourselves. 

There was a time not too long ago where I would've heard ideas like this and thought "what the f*ck kind of hippy nonsense are we talking about?" I am sure there are some people reading this who might be thinking that as well. I get it, without context or the full depth of what the words mean, it could sound like some abstract nonsense. 

That is why I strongly encourage you to listen to this conversation (and all of these conversations really--sorry shameless plug) with Jahan. You may not agree with the beliefs or views, you may still think drugs in any form are dangerous, and you may ultimately have a much more straight forward, less abstract view of life. That is OK. But how would you ever really know that if you didn't consider another perspective? How would you know if it is "hippy nonsense" if you didn't actually take the time to understand what is being said? That's why I do this show, to force myself to take the time and consider other perspectives. And I'm glad I did.

Jahan is a Ph.D. who completed his dissertation on psychedelics in the Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness program at the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS). He wrote a book, The Psilocybin Connection and he also provides Hakomi somatic-psychotherapy and psychedelic driven counseling sessions to clients (full details here- https://psychedelicevolution.org/). He is extremely well read and brings a deep scientific/data driven approach to understanding these "hippy topics." 

Learning more about psychedelics was super interesting, but as always my favorite part of the conversation was when we questioned and examined some of the concepts. We discussed/debated if psychedelics are necessary to achieve true humility, if loving everyone equally should be our goal, and if the Aztecs' demise was rooted in their use of psychedelics--just to name a few. Big thanks to Jahan for sharing his knowledge and openly exploring a bunch of interesting topics with me.

In this episode I go solo to "play with philosophy." As you will hear me to talk about, I think playing in philosophy is super important. We have to be willing to explore some of these big, messy topics with a mindset of play. We need to be open, free flowing, curious, and willing to look at things from all different angles. That freedom and openness allows us to explore these topics in a way that helps lead to more learning and insights.

So for this session I played with the question: does any of it really matter if we can't enjoy life? By that I meant, does anything else in life matter more than our own enjoyment of life? Can we ever care about other people, their needs, their suffering, if we don't find any net positive enjoyment in life? Can we truly believe (and furthermore should we truly believe) that there is something bigger and more important than our own happiness?

When you play, it is messy and unpolished. You follow the logical thread where ever it takes you; so that is what you will hear in this episode. I hope it makes you think.

Olga has a belief that free will doesn't exist. This belief isn't rooted in spirituality or intuition, it is deeply rooted in science and reason. Olga believes if people understood that free doesn't exist, it would actually inspire us to be more humble, more caring, and increase our overall quality of life.

These conversations are so rich with good discussion because there is so much to get into. Does free will really not exist, how would we know? What are the implications of free will not existing, how do we know it would make people better off knowing that? If free will doesn't exist does that mean our individual lives are meaningless? How can any decision I make actually matter if I didn't have the free will to decide anyway?

As a scientist and a philosopher, Olga was a great person to kick around these questions with. She's thought through so much of it in her work but also in a novella she just released exploring these exact topics.

A more complete bio from Olga below-

I am an Associate Professor in the Department of Radiology and Biomedical Imaging at the University of California in San Francisco (UCSF). I hold my degrees in Physics (PhD), Electrical Engineering (MSc and BSc), and Psychology (BSc). Professionally I focus on studying adolescent brain development and mental health. My other goals in life include sharing my passion for science and critical thinking, and helping people have more joy in their lives. The award-winning novella Just City is my first fiction book, which reflects my passion for science and critical thinking.

On this episode I have a conversation with a long time friend, who I went to Boston College with. Ed is a really interesting person. He is authentic, he is passionate, and he has a very spiritual/karmic view on life. He has worked in the entertainment industry for a long time, as a writer, influencer, podcaster, and now a development executive. This show was great for me because he brought such a different perspective and approach than the usual philosopher or analytical thinker. He is super smart but also uses a lot of intuition to guide his life. This was a good example too, of taking a look at a different way of thinking and exploring it in a way that isn't combative or judgmental, but is just curious and open. I really hope you enjoy it.

Hillary is a cultural anthropologist, author, teacher and mixed-media storyteller with a focus on theater anthropology and cross-cultural perspectives on human consciousness. She has an undergraduate degree in journalism, an MA in philosophy of mind, and a PhD in existential psychology. That background is a jackpot if you are interested in having a conversation about human nature and values. Hillary describes her work as exploring how we human beings make meaning of this wonderful, terrible, ecstatic, startling, and often absurd world in which we live. Game on.

Hillary started with a really interesting and important value, "pulling back the blinders." The reason for that value is that she wants to understand and engage with the world in the purest possible way. So to do that she needs to expand her perspective to try to see the world for what it really is, not just the limited view we have as an individual. It is funny, in conversations like this I almost have to be careful because we have such similar perspectives/values. I want to make sure we don't group think into believing we have all the answers or this is the only way to view life. Luckily, Hillary had a really good perspective and was super humble/open minded--no surprise given her value.

There was so much I enjoyed about this discussion, but two little nuggets that stood out were: 1. the idea of tying to view the world from a different "window." We all have baggage, biases, and perspectives that constructs the window we see the world from. Hillary wants to find opportunities where ever she can to try to peak out of different people's windows to get a more complete view of the world. And 2. when I asked Hillary how she made sense of the universe she said she views it like jazz music. By that she meant it is free flowing and not controlled in any rigid way, but at the same time there is a unifying rhythm that keeps it all connected. Really great discussion and really thought provoking all around.

David Wann is an author, filmmaker, market gardener, amateur musician, father, husband and co-founder of a cohousing neighborhood in Colorado, where he's lived for 26 years, providing organic produce for 27 households. In some ways, as you hear Dave speak and look into what he is passionate about (sustainability, community, change), he sounds like what many label a "hippy." In the conversation we actually addressed that head on and Dave was not apologetic or bothered by this label. He feels there are certain ideals, or at least principles, we should all live by to take care of the earth, ourselves, and humanity as a whole.

The two things I found particularly interesting from this conversation were, firstly the juxtaposition of the free spirited "hippy" persona with the deep sense of responsibility and burden to strive for positive change and improvement. There is a very real sense of pressure and burden that Dave seems to feel to live up to his ideal values. That is why the value of "integrity" is so important to him, because it means no matter how hard it gets you stay true to what you believe in. 

The second thing was a common question that comes up on this how, trying to determine if there is one objectively "right" way to live? And if there is, what does it look like, how we do know if we've found it, and how far are we willing to go to ensure everyone lives by it? As a credit to Dave's authenticity but also his conviction, he acknowledged at times he can come off "preachy" or presumptive in what changes he thinks we need to make, but he has been very thoughtful and logical in the formation of his values and he believes in them deeply. This made for a really interesting discussion, where we were able to explore a lot and try to think through to some of life's biggest questions.

Gwendolyn is a PhD and professor of Philosophy at Cal Poly Pomona, an author (Tips from The Professor A Guide to College Success), and has a super successful podcast, Good is in the Details, which directly ties to her commitment to the art of dialogue and passion for discovering ideas. Gwendolyn's knowledge of philosophy and her ability to use it to try and improve her life made her a really interesting guest. She was able to straddle the line between the academic and the practical, in a way that allowed us to explore a lot of interesting topics.

This was evident from the start when Gwendolyn spoke about how her value system changed after she had a daughter a bit later in life. Previously life was about work, productivity, and accomplishments. After having her daughter, it was not that she no longer cared about those things, it was just that how she viewed and measured them changed. As she put it her definition of a "good day" was different now. We used this as a jumping off point to explore some of the more interesting and complex questions in philosophy. 

Perhaps the central thread of the discussion revolved around Aristotle's concept of "eudaimonia." Most people interpret this concept to mean that life is ultimately about finding happiness. But as Gwendolyn explained, it is actually more nuanced than that. Eudaimonia is "rational activity for the soul, for its own sake." There are certainly aspects of happiness in it, but it is also about satisfaction, growth, well-being, and living in alignment with your purpose. As I said, it is a complex topic, but so is philosophy and life for that matter. Many people are frustrated by that. They want simple answers and believe it is a failure of philosophy to not provide them. I understand that view, but I think as Gwendolyn articulated: philosophy's goal is to try to make sense of life, so it's output has to be as complex and subjective as life itself.

There are not a lot of topics more important than protecting abused or suffering children. Lance spent most of his career as a child welfare worker and has also wrote two books on the topic. He started the episode by discussing the importance, but also the challenges, of government being responsible for making decisions about the well being of children. I really appreciated this discussion, because Lance was able to give an inside look to the mind of a social worker. We got a peek inside to understand how he viewed his work, the ugliness he saw, and ultimately what, if any, better solutions we should be considering. As you might expect we also got philosophical and tried to understand what Lance's experiences tell us about human nature and if we should have optimism for the future. More complete bio for Lance- Lance is the author of two books, In Place of the Parent: Inside Child Protective Services and Build A Better Bridge: Social Policy for the 21st Century. He has appeared on several podcasts and radio shows discussing these topics. For most of his professional life, he was a child welfare social worker. This experience gave him a unique perspective. As a social worker, he saw how government policies evolve. New policies usually, but not always, are better. Change often comes at a glacial pace. He wants to speed up the process.

I often talk about the concept of the "philosopher king" on this podcast. It is something I admire and probably aspire towards. The idea that the "best" people are those that don't acknowledge they are the best, that the wisest are very open about how much they don't know, or that those in power are the ones that don't think they deserve to be in power. The humility and self awareness required to achieve that status is almost mythical in nature. The reality is none of us will probably ever get to that state, but I always value getting to talk to people who aim to live up to that ideal.

My guest today, Gerry, is one of those people. It doesn't take long when you talk to somebody like that to recognize it. It started with his stated value of "reasonableness", which he followed up with an acknowledgement that none of us are nearly as reasonable as we think we are but he is doing his best to try. There was that humility and self awareness; and it came through many times throughout the conversation. Gerry's journey to be more reasonable started about 25 years ago and it was really interesting to hear him talk about the experience. Ironically, he said that he has never been called unreasonable more than since he started making a concerted effort to be more reasonable.

I think that speaks to the nature of the society we live in today. It has become "unreasonable" to try to be objective, fact driven, and humble. Society values people who have hot takes or make bold, conclusive claims. So much so, that Gerry actually described his decision to try to be more reasonable as the "best worst decision of his life." He's seen a ton of benefits from it but he's also found that friends, family, and other acquaintances can get really bothered by it. Obviously he nor I are trying to be overly dramatic about it, there are clearly much harder things to deal with in life, but I do understand the tough road it can be. I really enjoyed exploring all of this with Gerry and trying to understand a bit better what it means to be "reasonable."

There are some people who are just natural observers in life. We never really know why-- maybe genetics, maybe their environment, maybe a spiritual purpose? But what we do know is that they are able to see our world in a unique way. My guest Austin fits directly in this category for me. He grew up around dogs and probably started to hone his skills by trying to understand their behavior. He eventually became a dog trainer, then eventually began training young athletes, and then eventually began training parents. 

Along each step in this journey he was observing and studying. Constantly taking in more input, reassessing the systems and frameworks he was using, and determining optimal techniques to improve. It's funny because the conversation started off relatively light and direct. Austin stated "movement" as his most important value and we went down a path talking about the very basic, primal benefits of movement. We talked about how it related to a dog's need to move, how our bodies stop allocating resources to parts we don't use, and how big of a factor pain is in peoples' lives. 

He talked about a personal experience with a severe leg injury, which led him to understanding the importance of building a "good" relationship with pain. I really enjoyed this part of the discussion because I find pain fascinating in general, but also for the deep insights Austin provided about the role his ego played and the specific lessons he learned about listening to your body. 

As the conversation progressed in this one, it became more obvious how effortlessly Austin went through this "observe, study, optimize" process in his life. His expertise and passion is around physical activity, training, and therapy; so naturally he covered a ton of aspects of those topics. Getting to hear his deeper observations as we explored these topics was really interesting. We also realized, the somewhat obvious, conclusion that these same lessons could be applied to dealing with the mental aspects of life. That illustrates why we need "observers" in the world, no matter their field, they identify patterns about life that we can all learn from.

Evolution would be the word that comes to mind most after this conversation with Scott. I had the opportunity to work as an intern a while back at Madison Square Garden Sports (NY Knicks, Rangers, etc.) when Scott was running the organization. I didn't know him that well, but my view of him was similar to most people who had only heard of him through the news and other public info. He was super successful, worked really hard, was very competitive, and enjoyed "winning" (e.g., closing the big deals, getting the big promotions, etc.). As Scott puts it sometimes, that was the "warrior" phase of his life. I don't disparage that at all and in many ways I can very much relate to it. What makes Scott so interesting though is, although he has been super successful (started his own company, was an executive with the NBA, was President of Madison Square Garden Sports, CEO of the 76ers/Devils, etc.), he has evolved as a person and redefined what "success" means for him. He seems to find a deeper sense of purpose and happiness from the things he now values most, "faith, family, and love of people." He is the first to acknowledge though that every one has a different path in life, so he is not preachy or judgmental. The big message he is trying to share (especially through his book "Be Where Your Feet Are: Seven Principles to Keep You Present, Grounded, and Thriving") is it is about the process. We can never know for sure how things will work out; we can’t control all the variables. But we can be self reflective, we can be honest with ourselves, and we can be intentional about what matters most. If we can do that, the odds of us finding true happiness in life goes up significantly. Scott made this very real too because he was open about the failures and bumps he has had along the way. The journey is messy and is not always easy. He’s been broke, he’s been fired, and he’s had his best friend commit suicide. Despite how dark life can get though, he’s learned that there are things we can do for our own mental, spiritual, and physical well being that allow us to still find joy. It was really insightful to talk through all of this with him and get a deeper understanding of his approach to life.

Josh is a senior copywriter at a Fortune 500 company and recently wrote a book, "I'm not a copywriter, but...: Lessons Learned from a Late Bloomer," which is an honest portrayal of his struggles and triumphs that led him to a career in marketing and advertising. Before getting into this field, Josh was a stand-up comedian, failed professional wrestler, and he also co-founded Laugh Staff, a speechwriting company that used comedians to write wedding toasts. 

Josh and I talked a lot about writing and creation in this episode, which fit really nicely with his value of "focus." It was cool to hear him talk about the value of focus, what it feels like to be in the "flow state", and the effect it has to calm him down and center him. What was as interesting were the parallels we started to identify between writing and life in general. That theme kind of rode through out the discussion, as we talked about how ego impacts writing, the courage it takes to put yourself out there, and the desire for connection with your audience. 

It was apparent to me very quickly that Josh is a really self reflective and thoughtful person. He tries to be very deliberate in how he approaches life. Those traits always make for a good discussion because he had a lot of insight into the how and why behind his values/beliefs. If you have any interest in writing this is a great episode to check out, but even if not I think some of the themes we discussed are really applicable for anyone trying to figure out this crazy thing we call life.

Today I decided to go solo and post an episode with some of my thoughts about why I am doing this show, what I've learned, and what I am still searching for. It is a little free flowing and stream of consciousness but hopefully it still makes sense and is interesting. I tried to be honest and openly explore the questions that roam around my mind. I tried to figure out why I need to understand things, why I can't trust my gut feelings/emotions, and if true happiness is ever even allowed. 

Chris has a bold belief that he understands the issues with our current economic systems, the ways they are hurting society and the earth, and what needs to be done to fix them.

His work, with his non-profit (The Foundation of New World), is meant to build awareness and drive people to implement these fixes. At the root of the problem, Chris believes we are focusing on the wrong metrics (GDP, currency values, inflation, etc.) which are leading us to overproduce, overwork our employees, and destroy value.

Although many people would agree that our current systems have issues, it is a massive claim to suggest that there is a cure-all to fix them. So Chris and I spent a good bit of time trying to understand his solution and how realistic it was. We also spent time trying to better understand Chris, where this mission came from, and why he has dedicated so much of his life to it.

A more complete bio from Chris-

Christopher Ellingsworth is the Founder and CEO of a non-profit, (https://thefoundationofanewworld.com/⁠), and a veteran. He would like to not only raise awareness about the non-profit and its goals, but also to raise awareness and teach people about a core problem of our society that is overlooked, not understood, and thought to be unsolvable. This core problem is our financial system and its designs that push our society to produce products designed to fail so they can be built again, simultaneously causing us to destroy our own environment reproducing what is planned to be garbage as soon as possible and pushing the majority of humankind into something close to if not, a form of indentured servitude.

The theme that stood out most in this conversation with Isabella, was the importance of intuition in our lives. Isabella spoke about how she has used intuition and finding her inner voice to face her fears, overcome hurdles, and achieve a deep sense of freedom and happiness. At the root of all this is this idea that we don't really need guardrails, we don't need limiting beliefs, and we don't need societal rules to tell us how to be free and happy. On one hand there is something so deeply appealing and logical about that idea. It is something that has transformed Isabella's life and she believes it can do the same for others as well. On another hand though, there is something deeply troubling about it. We talked a lot about this during the episode, but there is a view that we can't just rely on intuition. Sometimes guardrails or rules are necessary to help save us from ourselves. How do we protect against becoming selfish or destructive? How do we have so much confidence in our own internal intuition to assume we can trust it implicitly? You start to recognize that there is this leap of faith component to it. We have to have faith that we can trust our intuition even if logically we cannot explain why. We have to accept something to be true even if we can't understand it. It was really enjoyable and insightful to work through all of this with Isabella as she was really thoughtful about all of it. Isabella would be the first to acknowledge that she doesn't have all the answers to these questions and she very much understands the concerns. But all she can say is that given her experience and the work she does (as an author, entrepreneur, and futurist) she has found that trusting her inner voice has led her to much better life. Maybe she summed it best with a quote from one of her favorite movies, Legends of the Fall, "Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends.”

Apparently when a couple of Italians from Long Island, who have known each other for 25 years, get together we like to talk a lot and argue with each other. So that is what me and Justin did for much of this conversation, but in a way that I think is productive. I've known Justin since middle school and he is one of the more liberal people I know, so I knew it would be an interesting conversation.  He came with a, some what expected, value of "being a good person" as his answer to the question. Yes it is a bit vague, generic, and subjective so we talked about that. We talked about why he wants people to think of him as a good person and what is even really means. Respectfully I made a case for why that type of value is almost completely useless on a logical basis but we debated if it had practical value. These are always fun when I get to talk to someone I know really well, at least for me. Hopefully you guys enjoy it too.

My guest, Matt, recently published a comedic memoir about religious upbringing, "Swept Up: Lessons From the End Times" (https://amzn.to/3I2rqB2). The book includes "tales (and lessons) from church, home-schooling, and a few strange years at a major evangelical university."

This background helps explain his value of "self-honesty, because as Matt put it, he was raised to rely on certainty to guide him through life. From a very young age he was taught about God, heaven, hell, and the other various religious doctrines of Christianity. For a kid like Matt, who from a young age tried to question and understand things, this made life really difficult. He found himself in a constant state of anxiety and stress, worried that any wrong move might lead to his eternal damnation.

Worse yet, as he tried to make sense of it all he found himself with more questions than answers. How could everyone be so certain about this God and these rules we are supposed to follow? Would God really send me to hell if I don't follow all the rules exactly? Why aren't we allowed to acknowledge there are some things we just don't know for sure?

I really enjoyed this discussion with Matt, because so much centered around the question of: what do I do in the face of uncertainty? If I am not sure there is a God, I am not sure what the meaning of life is, and I am not sure if there is a universal moral code to follow--then what do I do? Matt and I tried to work through this and make sense of how we live day to day with all of this uncertainty.

We also spent a good bit of the discussion trying to empathize with those who do completely submit to the concept of God. We even put ourselves in the shoes of a parent or devout follower who feels they do know for sure that God is real and has given us directions to follow. If you truly believe that, what is the right way to live, the right way to raise your children, the right way to talk about God with others?

This was a really fun, engaging, and thought provoking conversation and I thank Matt a lot for opening up so much and sharing his journey.

"Optimism is leaning into hope." As was true for much of this conversation, there is something so simple, eloquent, and logical about that quote. Leann believes her "super power" is being genetically optimistic. She was diagnosed with Relapsing Remitting Multiple Sclerosis at the age of 29, with 4 kids, and a lot of fear about what her life was going to become. But after some sadness and mourning, that super power kicked in and she decided to lean into hope. Today, Leann is a life coach for others dealing with chronic illnesses/difficulties in life and she started a non-profit, Tri 2 Beat MS Kids' Triathlon (which has raised over $100K in 8 years).

I was really excited to talk to Leann, partially because of my own experience with my wife having MS, but also because she seems like the perfect person to test how effective optimism really is as a value. She has thought deeply about it, she is trying to teach it to other people, she has seen it be severely tested in her own life--and she is confident it is the best approach to take. So we spent much of the discussion understanding why Leann felt so passionate about optimism, how she makes it real in her life, and of course the potential risks or challenges to being so optimistic.

We spent a good bit of time early on talking about the power of "affirmations." I thought this was particularly interesting because that word has become some popular and kind of bastardized in society today. However, Leann had a very pragmatic and logical view on affirmations that really resonated with me. The idea that everything we believe or tell ourselves is an affirmation, it is just a matter if we want to choose negative affirmations (I'm not a runner, I'm not smart enough to get into that program, I can't do anything to help people with MS, etc.) or positive ones (e.g., I can be a runner and I am going to start today, I can study and put in the time to get better, I can start volunteering today to help others, etc.). This type of "logical optimism" is something I found really compelling.

Arnie works in asset management at a global investment bank, he served as an Army officer and aviator/helicopter pilot for 10 years, and he is a long time family friend. Maybe most importantly for this conversation, Arnie is someone who is willing to question his own thoughts and beliefs. He's trying to figure it out- he is trying to figure out how to live his "best life", how to be happy, how to be a good son, how to be a good a person, etc. He knows those are things he wants to achieve. He knows he feels a sense of responsibility to live up to his potential. He also knows that is what makes life so challenging, because there are things we want to achieve but there is no way to know for sure how to do it. And he seems to know that the best he can do is question his thinking and hope it eventually leads him down the right path. This was definitely one of the more philosophical conversations we've had on the show. We went back and forth a lot. We tried to figure out if this thing called life makes any sense at all. Arnie is more of a believer that if we work "bottoms up" and take even small actions every day in the right direction, that might be the blue print to a "good life." I am more skeptical of that, because I still worry that even those small actions need to be rooted in some value/morality system that tells you what the "right direction" is. I think we need to figure out at a very high level what the meaning of life is for us, what we value, and then do the hard work to live in accordance with that. But how we do ever determine with any confidence what the meaning of our life is? Those are the types of discussions we had on this episode. Arnie was awesome because he wasn't afraid to swim in the mud of uncertainty. It is uncomfortable and it can be unsatisfying because it doesn't always (if ever) leave us with concrete answers. But as Arnie showed on this episode, that might just be life. There are no comfortable conclusions, there are no easy answers, there is no peace that comes with figuring it all out. Our job is to do the work every day to try and figure it out, while accepting the reality that we likely never will. I told you this one was real philosophical, but I hope you still find it valuable and enjoy it. As always, thanks a lot for listening.

I say often on this show, that life is complex and full of nuance. It is full of these paradoxes, contradictions, and dualities that we need to try to manage. It is messy and hard to get a grasp on. Sometimes we find ourselves scratching our heads trying to make sense of it all. In many ways that encompasses the conversation I had with my guest, Lincoln. Usually within 10-20 minutes I can get a decent grasp of the other person and can start to paint a picture of what they are all about. I mean this as compliment; with Lincoln that was not the case. Much like life, I found myself trying to keep up with fluidity and nuance of his mindset.

That can sound like a negative because our minds so desperately want to put people into a box. We want to quickly understand and categorize people. Interestingly, that is exactly what Lincoln wants to avoid. His approach to life is to never settle and never allow yourself to be limited by a categorization or wrapper. He is constantly learning, constantly pushing himself to try to be bigger, better, and different. That is how Lincoln views life, it is an infinite game that requires constant progression. This means he climbs mountains, scuba dives, sky dives, and seeks out opportunities to "look over the guardrail of life" and see what he can learn. In his professional career (https://www.mindstrengthbalance.com/) it looks like him being a psychotherapist, author, coach, past life regression specialist, hypnotherapist, and I would say philosopher.

There were a ton of interesting insights, tangents, and logical threads we explored in this one. We talked about death, parenting, education, Richard Feynman (one of my personal heroes), creativity, and a lot more. I think it is Lincoln's value (which we unpacked throughout the show) which best summarizes our conversation though. When I asked him what it was all about, why all the learning and pushing to do/see more; he said he wants to "change, embrace chaos, and go out singing." What an approach to life--to want to change and grow above all else, to welcome the chaos life throws at us, and ultimately to leave this world so content and fully of joy that you go out singing when you die.

My favorite quote from this discussion was "the teacher hasn't taught until the student has learned." There is something about it that is so eloquent, simple, logical, and profound. It speaks to the importance of being humble, listening, and considering other people; rather than just being in our own head. So much of this conversation with Mac circled around these topics. 

Mac is an author of a new book, Positive Masculinity Now, which takes a deep dive into gender expectations, socialization, and messaging. He is a life long martial artist, with a black belt in numerous different areas. Mac is also a trans-man and activist. I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the last piece was going to be the major focus of the conversation.

We certainly discussed the topic of gender fluidity and tried to understand what masculinity really means, how science fits into the discussion, and what role socialization plays in our view of gender. But what I loved is that we spent much of the conversation just talking as people. We talked about Mac's background, his love of teaching, the value martial arts has brought to his life, his value of trying to make a difference in the world, and many other things. That is what I want this show to be about. To explore people and their perspectives, with no agenda, no biases, no preconceived notions--just talk, listen, and learn.

At the end of the discussion we got into a really interesting conversation about rigidity. Mac made the point that being agile is so necessary in a world that is constantly changing. We discussed how important self confidence is to actually be agile, but also why some people think rigidity is a noble trait. They believe it speaks to their conviction and it is necessary to protect themselves from potential "evils" in the world. We had some really insightful dialogue that I truly enjoyed and I hope you all do as well.

Michaell was born in Vienna-Austria and now lives in California. He is a Multimedia Artist, writer, and advisor/educator, who is trying to raise our awareness to the true potential of humanity and nature, which are continuously diminished by man-made systems like technology and the economy. Michaell's value was "experiencing his humanness", meaning he looks to experience all aspects of life to try to tap into our human superpowers of creativity, healthy discourse and wisdom.

Art was obviously a big part of the conversation with Michaell and I found it really valuable to deep dive into "art" and understand what role it plays in our lives. Michaell believes one of art's main functions is that it allows meaning to reveal itself. We live in a world filled with dichotomies, contradictions, and paradoxes. We know we should seek the truth about life, but we also know we will likely never find any concrete answers. We all recognize the beauty of freedom and openness, but we also understand the need for systems and structure. I spend a lot of time thinking about these dichotomies and trying to make sense of them. Michaell helped me start to realize the role art plays in bridging the gap. Maybe my favorite quote of the show was "art wants one thing, to be created and exposed." There is something beautiful in that. Something that feels very related to the concept of "truth." Just like art, truth doesn't care about biases, flaws, or insecurities--it just cares about being what it is. 

It made me think that if we want solve many of the issues in the world today, we all need to embrace more of an artistic mindset. It doesn't mean we all have to become painters or musicians, but it would benefit us greatly to not be so finite in our thinking. Michaell believes we have an amazing potential as humans but we limit ourselves with finite and fixed systems. Art is perhaps the most powerful tool we have to rise above those systems and experience life for what it is meant to be.

Dorian is the Principal and EVP of Cornerstone Land Abstract, a title insurance company in New York City, with over $10 billion in transactions. A major reason I wanted to talk to Dorian was because of how prominent and successful he is in an industry as fast paced and demanding as real estate. I thought it would make for an interesting case study in how someone with that life style thinks about their value system. I had a sense there was depth/thoughtfulness to his approach, given his passion for promoting physical and mental wellness, as he is also the Founder of the Real Estate Warriors, a networking coalition for individuals who believe in “mindfulness and sweat equity”.

I'd be lying though if I didn't still go into the conversation thinking there was a chance Dorian was going to be this fast talking, money hungry, real estate maverick. Right from the jump however, he made clear how thoughtful, deliberate, and humble he is. I thought his value of "own the pause" was super interesting and relatable for me. Life is so complicated, our minds are influenced by so many different things, and there is never enough time in the day; so embracing the idea of taking pauses and trying to evaluate if you're on the right track seems like an obvious choice. For that reason, we spent a lot of time pressure testing the concept and exploring why it can still be so hard to do, even if it logically makes so much sense. 

We also tackled the question of how he balances finding happiness in life, spending time with the people that matter, and running that fast paced real estate business. I found Dorian's approach of being super deliberate about his "mental fitness" (working with a coach to improve it) and time allocation really insightful. As we discussed, being happy can be hard work, but we can't let that discourage us from going after it. Some might believe life should be simple and that happiness should come easily; and if that works for them that is awesome. But for Dorian, and myself, life seems too complicated to take that view.

Honestly, I have been sitting on this episode for a while. I even went back to my guest, Will, and did a part 2 recording because I wasn't sure how I felt about the first session we did. I'm not sure I can completely explain why I had reservations, but for some reason I did. I decided to err on the side of transparency and "showing my work" though, rather than editing or not sharing. 

To step back for a minute, Will is a friend of mine who I've know for over 25 years. We grew up together and have been close for a long time. Will is one of those friends who always brings the energy and when he is around you know it is going to be a good time. He is genuine, full of passion, and has a really unique way about him-- his nickname in high school (and beyond) was "Da Machine." What is interesting about that is I think that is part of the reason I didn't feel great about the first recording. I realized that I fall into a certain groove when I interact with Will. I don't always take him as seriously as I should, I don't expect to get into deep conversations, and I think I let that impact the episode.

We talked about this a bunch in the second part of the show, but it was a really interesting reminder for me. As thoughtful and reflective as I think I am, I still have some blind spots. I still have work to do. You never know where biases might pop up. What it made me realize though is how closed minded we can be about wisdom. We get this idea that wisdom should look, or sound, or be presented in a certain way. If it doesn't fit the mold of how we traditionally think about it, then we often dismiss it. Will helped remind me of that because throughout both sessions his approach to life consistently impressed me. He lives in the moment, he speaks from his heart, he tries not to overthink things, he understands there is a time to put in work and there is a time to enjoy yourself, etc.

I appreciate Will a ton for being on the show and allowing me to try to work through my shit to get to a good, authentic discussion. I'm not sure I hit it completely, but I did learn a lot about myself and about life, so a big thanks to him for that.

Pastor Ken, as he is known by his members, is a pastor, best-selling author, business executive, husband, father, and community leader, whose entire life has been dedicated to the service of others. That sounds like just a line from a bio, but as you will hear in this conversation it is quite real for him--dedicating himself to the service of others. Here is the cool part though, he fully acknowledges that being "helpful" and serving others is not natural for him, it is a struggle, and the only reason he is able to do it is because he's been working at it his entire life. There is something so fascinating about that to me; the idea that helping others or being a "good" person can take so much work. 

Ken is the author of 4 books and a children book series mainly focused on divorce and fatherhood, so we spent a good bit of time talking about those topics. It was really interesting to hear Ken talk about his value of "helpfulness" and how it played out in the context of his own divorce. It illustrated that tension of trying to be good and do the right thing by your family while managing your own ego and pain. I often say the math doesn't seem to check out. When we run the calculation in our minds of what it takes to be a good person, it seems to spit out an answer that says you are better off being more selfish than you are being helpful to others. So we tried to explore that and understand what made someone like Ken able to go against the "math."

Obviously faith plays a role in this, but what I found really impactful was Ken's openness to acknowledge he is not entirely sure why he does it. There are some lived experiences and influence from his family, but if he's really honest he's not sure why he decided to focus on it so much. And if you think about it that is a really profound idea, because it suggests everyone has the potential to focus their lives on helping others. It is a choice we all get to make every day, not an easy choice, but a choice none the less. The question then becomes how can we know that helping others is actually the "right" choice--but that is a conversation for another day.