Nicole joins us today from Canada. She has had an induced Cesarean birth, an induced VBAC, and is now pregnant with her third baby! Nicole shares her journey with IVF before pregnancy as well as what it’s like to have a subglottic stenosis during pregnancy. 

Meagan gives tips about the best types of induction for VBAC. You can be induced and still confidently achieve your VBAC!

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello and welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and we have our friend Nicole with you today. She is from Canada and she has a VBAC story which is awesome. One of the things I wanted to talk about today within her VBAC story and her Cesarean story is induction. Induction is a hot topic, especially in the VBAC world. 

A lot of providers out there will not induce or they’ll tell people they can’t have a VBAC because of an induction needing to take place or people are scared of induction. I find that a lot of our followers are scared of induction. So at the end, I want to talk a little bit more about induction. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: We are going to get into our review so cute Nicole can share her stories. Today’s review is, let’s see if I can get this to pull up. My computer’s slow here. It’s by Rucca the Silly Frenchie. I love that name. Lucathesillyfrenchie. The title is, “An essential resource if you are VBAC hopeful.” It says, “Writing this review from Columbus, Ohio. I’m a VBAC hopeful with my second daughter due on September 4, 2021.” So Rucca the Silly Frenchie if you are still listening, let us know how things went. 

It says, “After my first daughter was born via Cesarean due to a footling breech position, I knew TOLAC was in my future. This podcast has been beyond educational and inspiring. Be prepared to be addicted to listening to all of the powerful and unique birth stories from strong women around the country. Regardless of what happens with my upcoming labor, I feel empowered knowing I took a more empowered and educated approach with this pregnancy. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”

Thank you, Rucca the Silly Frenchie for your review. I would love to know how everything went. If you guys have not had a chance to leave us a review, please drop us one. We love them and we love reading them on this podcast. You can leave them wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

Hi birth workers, this one’s for you. In an ideal world, VBAC parents would be treated just like other birthing parents. In today’s world, most medical providers sadly don’t fully support VBAC parents. However, 90% of parents with a prior Cesarean are good candidates to attempt a VBAC. This is why we have created the advanced VBAC doula certification program. In this doula course, we share evidence-based data for you to educate your clients, teach you the tools on helping them how to process past fears and trauma or help them decide if VBAC is even right for them. You will feel better prepared to support them during this beautiful experience. All VBAC-certified doulas are listed on our website so parents know who you are. To learn more, go to thevbaclink.com.

Nicole’s Stories

Meagan: Okay. Nicole, I am so excited. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. I know that all of you guys here who have recorded your stories are sacrificing time out of your day to be here to share this amazing content for all of these wonderful, hopeful listeners. 

Nicole: Thank you for having me. I’ll jump back to before my Cesarean, but this podcast was such a resource for me in planning for my VBAC so I’m happy to be a part of it in a different way. So thanks for having me.

Meagan: Yes, thank you. 

Nicole: I’ll start from the very beginning. My husband and I were high school sweethearts. We got married in 2015 so about a year after we got married we decided, “Okay. We’re ready to start trying to have a family.” I stopped taking my birth control pill and literally nothing happened. I wasn’t having any cycles or anything like that. So I went to my family doctor. We started inducing cycles and then going from there just on our own. 

It turns out that notwithstanding the fact that we were inducing a bleed, I wasn’t actually ovulating at all. So that’s fine. So then we started doing a couple of rounds of letrozole with her just with timed intercourse. We did five rounds of letrosole with that timing with her and then with no luck or success at that point, she referred us out to a fertility clinic where I was diagnosed with classic PCOS and ovulatory PCOS because I don’t ovulate on my own. 

So we did the first IUI with them. Again, no success with letrozole so that’s fine. We had another one scheduled. After doing all of that, I had stopped responding to the letrozole at the highest dose so then our only option was either superovulation or IVF and it just worked out timing-wise to do IVF and it made more sense to do that. 

We ended up going through IVF and because I had PCOS, the numbers that we got in terms of eggs were really, really good. We got 41 eggs which is insane. 

Meagan: Wow, yeah. 

Nicole: When it was all said and done, we ended up with 10-day five embryos which was really promising so that was good. We had our first transfer, a frozen transfer, in August 2018. It was successful so we were super excited. I had a really good pregnancy. I never felt sick. Aside from the first-trimester fatigue and exhaustion, I felt really, really good. I loved being pregnant. I was one of those annoying people. I never complained about being pregnant. I felt super good. Even at 41 weeks, I wasn’t like, “Oh, get this baby out.” I loved it. It was great. 

Of course, we did all of the things that you’re supposed to do like taking birth classes and all of those other things. I never had a birth plan per se. The birth plan and goal were just a healthy baby and a healthy mom whatever that looks like. Maybe in hindsight, we should have had something more concrete but I’m not sure it would have changed anything. 

Fast forward, I was 40 weeks plus 10 days, so 41 and a half weeks, maybe a centimeter dilated. Baby was just holding up shop. 

Meagan: Very comfortable. 

Nicole: Yeah, too comfortable, arguably. They decided to induce me and I was totally fine with that. They induced me with Cervadil. It was fine. They put in the Cervadil We stayed there at the hospital for about an hour or so. Everything on the monitors looked fine so this one woman said, “Come back when you have contractions for at least an hour lasting a minute,” or whatever the 4-1-1 is.  

Meagan: Yeah. Four minutes apart, one minute long, for at least an hour. I want to add in strength because sometimes it can be 4-1-1 and it’s not really strong so we go in a little bit early because we are seeing 4-1-1. Add strength in there if you are taking notes for when to go. Add strength. 

Nicole: Yeah, so when we left the hospital, it was fine. We went out for lunch and just hung around at home. Other things they told us before we left the hospital was if it feels like baby is not moving, if your mother’s intuition kicks in, to come back and they’ll make sure everything was fine and they’d go from there. 

It was around suppertime and I started to feel like, “Okay. Maybe baby’s not moving as much as she usually does or maybe I’m just being paranoid.” I said, “Let’s just go in. Let’s double-check just to be safe. I’m not going to get any sleep if I’m worried about her not moving so I’d rather just go in and get it checked.” We went in to get checked a little after supper so in the early evening. That was fine. 

They hooked us up to the monitors and everything looked okay. I could feel the contractions but I wasn’t really in any pain. I wouldn’t describe it as being painful yet. Baby looked really good and everything so they said, “Okay. You can go home” because I was still, I think, only a centimeter or maybe 2 being generous. They said, “Yeah, go home,” on the same kind of instructions so that’s fine. 

We went home. A few hours went by at home and now the contractions were quite a bit stronger and quite painful actually. I didn’t want to rush off to the hospital again because we had only just been there two or three hours before that but the contractions were very painful and very long. So I had one of those little contraction counters or whatever on your phone and I wasn’t sure if I was recording them correctly. I was logging them at two minutes but I was like, “That doesn’t sound right. That seems long.” I was like, “I can’t imagine spending the night at home with these feelings like this. I need something for my pain.”

I actually had my husband call the hospital and say, “Okay. This is what’s going on. If we come in, are we able to give her some pain meds and send her back home?” or send me back home if I’m not dilated enough yet to warrant admitting us. They said, “Well, maybe but you were already here for lack of fetal movement so there would be some hesitation about giving you something for it like morphine for example because then you are really probably not going to be feeling the baby. But come in. We will take a look at you and then go from there.” 

So okay, that’s fine. We ended up going back to the hospital maybe around midnight or shortly before then. It was quite late. I could barely walk through these contractions. They were so painful. In the back of my mind, I couldn’t imagine it getting any worse but I’d never done this before. Maybe my tolerance for pain isn’t as high as I thought it was or would like to think it is so that’s fine. 

We got back to labor and delivery. Right from the moment they hooked me back up onto the monitors in the triage room, you could just tell the vibe and the mood were completely different as soon as they looked at the strip. My contractions were lasting anywhere from 2-3 minutes. More than not as I was having 3, 4, 5 of them in a row without any break in between which was then really hard on baby because there was just no amount of time for baby to recover. 

So before one contraction would basically fully come down, another one would start. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Nicole: They were worried that the Cervadil has essentially hyper-stimulated my uterus. 

Meagan: Yes, that’s what I was going to say. It can do that. Cytotec and Cervadil can hyperstimulate. 

Nicole: Yep. So the first thing they did was take the Cervadil out. They said, “Okay. We’re just going to give you a little bit and see if things go down.” They didn’t. 

Meagan: Yes. But even Cervadil is less likely to stay in your body as long because it is removed so that’s a nice thing about Cervadil. 

Nicole: Yeah. They took it out and it didn’t change anything so then they gave me a dose of, I think it’s called nitroglycerin. It’s a spray. I don’t know if it comes in different forms but essentially it was described as what they can use in an attempt to relax the uterus and stop it from contracting. 

Meagan: They sprayed in your vagina? 

Nicole: In my mouth. 

Meagan: I was like, wow. Okay, in your mouth. Okay. 

Nicole: I think it’s also used for cardiac patients because it has the same effect on the heart if someone’s heart is having a heart attack or something. 

Meagan: If it’s too high or something. 

Nicole: Yeah, don’t quote me on that. I’m certainly not a medical professional but that was my understanding on that. Anyway, so they gave me something like five doses of that. Again, this is at this point a train that had left the station and nothing was working. Throughout this process, they were having me change positions so I’m being asked to go on my side and my hands and knees. I remember at one point, there was so much commotion and moving parts. 

I’m still having these super intense and painful contractions that they had asked me to move in some way and I said, “Okay, I just need a minute. I just need to catch my breath. I just need a minute.” The nurse very sternly but kindly looked at me and said, “We don’t have a minute. When we ask you to do something, you have to do it. We ask because baby is not doing well.” That’s kind of when despite all of the craziness, I clued in. I was like, “Okay. This is obviously maybe more urgent than I appreciate in the circumstance. 

So it was intense and scary. They decided that even though I was only 2 centimeters just to admit me because what are they going to do, send me home? They put me in a labor room because, until this point, we had just been in a triage room. Things kept going from bad to worse. At some point, it was decided that they would break my waters so that they could put in the little internal monitor to baby’s head. They did that. I had a few more doses of nitro. Throughout this whole process, I made it very clear, “I am pro-epidural. As soon as you can give me one, I want one. Give me one right now.”

They said, “Okay, we hear you but technically you aren’t even 3 centimeters dilated yet so you’re not even considered to be in active labor so we can’t give you an epidural yet.” I said, “Okay. Just so you know, I want one as soon as you are willing to give it to me.” I’m not sure how much time actually passed after. They broke my water and looked at the monitor until the call was made, “Okay. It’s time to get baby out.” But I kind of just remember the OB who was on call coming up to me. He was this big, intimidating man. He had such a gentle and soft voice. He said, “Look. Baby is not doing very well. I think we need to go in and get her. She’s not tolerating labor and it’s really important that we get her out as soon as we can.” He’s like, “Unfortunately, that means we are going to put you to sleep.” I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.” 

As soon as the words left my mouth, it was like, whoosh. A team of people rushed in. Somebody was in my face with a waiver that they were asking me to sign which in the moment, I get. But I was just like, “This is ridiculous.” Someone else was taking off all of my jewelry. My husband was being ushered out of the room. It was madness. We are running down the hall to the operating room which is, in our hospital, literally down the hall. 

So I’m on the table. They’re doing all of their counts or whatever they do. I’m basically awake and the anesthetist is sitting right by my head. He was complaining about how long everything is taking and how I should already be asleep and how we need to get the baby out which was terrifying. I remember he kept saying to me, “Just close your eyes. Just close your eyes.” I had never had surgery before so laying in this chaotic mess with someone telling me to close my eyes was so unsettling. I just remember being so scared to close my eyes because my husband wasn’t in the room with me.

Meagan: And they never let him in, right?

Nicole: They let him in after our daughter was born. 

Meagan: Being separated, how did that make you feel and being put to sleep?

Nicole: It was scary. I obviously wasn’t worried about my husband. I didn’t think at the moment about how he must have felt. I’m sure it was scary for him too. It just all happened so fast. There was hardly any time to feel anything other than fear because you almost didn’t have enough time to process any other emotion. But I just remember laying there. You’re strapped to the table naked, having these 10-minute-long contractions. I was almost begging them at this point to put me out because it was so awful. My husband wasn’t there so I was so thankful that there was this one nurse. I just remember hearing her voice come from somewhere behind me. I must have had this terrified look on my face because I had this anesthesiologist saying, “Close your eyes. Close your eyes.” 

She said, “It’s okay. You can keep them open. Everything’s fine.” It was the only moment of relief or calm that I felt in that entire OR. Everyone was doing their counts. Somebody must have asked where the sponge is for an antiseptic or whatever they use on your belly. The response from across the room was, “Nope. We’re just going to dump and cut.” I was like, “Oh.” All of a sudden, you feel this cold splash come across your midsection. 

Thankfully, they put me out shortly after that so I could stop listening to these conversations that were happening around me. But it was very scary. It turns out that baby was born a couple of minutes later. When it was all said and done, from the time the call was made that they needed to do the section to when she was born was less than 10 minutes. In my mind, it felt like this eternity but it wasn’t. It was quite quick. 

They brought my husband into the OR just as they were walking my daughter over to the warmer. He got to see her right away. She was totally fine. Everything was fine with her which was nice. They heated her. She went up to the nursery while they finished the section and were stitching me back up. I woke up a few hours later and they brought my daughter and my husband over to the recovery to see me after. 

I had a really good recovery in terms of C-sections. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Nicole: Yeah, it was really nice. I don’t actually remember being in any pain after the fact either in the hospital or at home but I did struggle in the weeks that followed bonding with the baby which really took me for a loop. We had spent so much time and emotional energy and money trying to have our family and trying to have a baby. Then here’s this baby in front of me and it sounds awful to say now to feel almost nothing, to feel indifferent. I didn’t have this overwhelming sense of loving joy. 

I certainly didn’t want any harm or anything or have thoughts of harm that way, but the easiest way for me to describe it is that I felt indifferent. It didn’t really matter if she was crying to me. I didn’t really care if she was there or if I got to hold her or if someone else held her all day. I was indifferent. 

Meagan: Yeah. I call that a disconnect. You’re just not fully connected. It’s not that you're not recognizing that she’s there or anything, you’re just not feeling that full connection that we hear about. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Meagan: But that’s also really common when you’ve had the type of Cesarean that you had or just Cesarean in general too. It happens in vaginal birth too. 

Nicole: I thought that was the case at the moment. I did think it was because I really didn’t have a birthing experience. At one moment, I was pregnant. The next moment as far as I was concerned, I woke up and I’m not without anything really connecting the two. That was kind of the struggle emotionally for those first couple of weeks. It kind of resolved itself around 7 or 8 weeks. It’s never been an issue and I’m obviously obsessed with my daughter and I love her. Thinking back on those memories and feelings is hard. Once we got through it, it was good. 

So that was the birth of our daughter. Shortly after she turned one, we started talking about having another child. We always knew that we wanted more than one. I come from a family of three and my husband comes from a family of four. We always thought that in an ideal world, more than one would be great. 

We did another frozen transfer in August 2020 which was successful so that was really exciting again. Similar to my previous pregnancy again, I felt really good. I was never sick. I loved being pregnant. Then I found this podcast and I listened to it religiously. I knew that I didn’t want to have an elective section. I really wanted a VBAC. That was the goal in terms of if I didn’t have a birth plan the first time, the birth plan the second time around was a VBAC. 

I found a doctor who said that she would deliver our baby. She wasn’t delivering babies with our first but she was back delivering them. She said that even if she wasn’t on call that day that she would come just for us to do ours which was really nice. She was super supportive and very much like, “If you need to be induced, we can talk about that.” She wasn’t insistent that I go into labor on my own or by a certain date or whatever the case was. I felt very much in good hands with her. 

Meagan: Yeah in not putting those restrictions on ever from the get-go. 

Nicole: Yes. That was really nice. It was such a weight off of my shoulders from the beginning. But it was the fall of 2020 I guess it was that both personally and many people around me noticed that my breathing was really poor. Part of me just chalked it up to being extremely out of shape. I was a new mom. I wasn’t doing as much as I had. But it really hit me when I started noticing that when I would read my daughter her books at her bedtime. You know toddler books. There are five words on every page, but I would have to stop between each page to catch my breath just sitting at rest. 

Meagan: That’s concerning. 

Nicole: Yeah. So I thought that maybe there was more to this. We went. Through a series of referrals, we ended up at ENT. He said, “This looks like something but I’m not one that can fix it for you,” so he referred us to a further specialist just in the next practice over. I was diagnosed with what’s called subglottic stenosis. 

Meagan: I’ve never heard of that. 

Nicole: In the simplest form, it’s a narrowing of your airway. It’s not scar tissue from my understanding but just normal tissue kind of like an overgrowth of normal tissue that causes this narrowing. It was likely caused by my intubation during my Cesarean. 

Meagan: During your Cesarean. 

Nicole: Yep. There was just something about my airway that didn’t like being touched and this was the result. The specialist informed me that it was about a third of the size that it should be and that it would be dangerous to attempt to labor without having a surgery to open it back up. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Nicole: That was another hard decision but we decided to go ahead and get that surgery while I was pregnant. I got that surgery. It’s called a dilation where they open it up with a laser and a balloon and all of this stuff. I had that surgery at 24 weeks and it was amazing how much better I could breathe. I didn’t appreciate how bad my breathing was until they fixed it. You don’t realize how much of my day and my time I spent just thinking about breathing so that was really nice. 

Then we were given the green light to TOLAC and try for a VBAC. The rest of the pregnancy was uneventful. I ended up going overdue again. I was 40 weeks and 7 days, I guess 41 weeks. It was decided that at that point, I would be induced because I was only a centimeter dilated. There were no signs of labor. So, fine. 

This time obviously though, they said, “Under no circumstances can we use Cervadil,” so we decided that I would be induced with a Foley bulb. We went to the hospital. They put in the Foley bulb that morning. They said, “Okay. Come back when it falls out.” It fell out a couple of hours later that afternoon. We went back to the hospital. I should add that during my pregnancy after my dilation surgery, we had an anesthesia consult to make sure, “Okay, what can we do to avoid another intubation?” It was decided, “When you come into the hospital, we’ll give you an epidural probably earlier than would usually be offered just in an abundance of caution to try to do everything we can to avoid intubating you.” So that was fine. 

We got to the hospital. They started me on a low dose of Pitocin. Contractions started to look like they were getting longer again and not really following that nice pattern that they like to see. Our nurse started getting a little nervous and concerned and suggested that we call anesthesia to do the epidural which sure. I’m totally on board with. I was proepidural from the very beginning with the both of them. From my perspective, I didn’t need to make my life or job harder than it already was. 

Anesthesia came in and gave me the epidural. It was great. I felt nothing. Then the contractions actually fell into a really nice pattern after so no one was worried. We hung out for two or three hours at the hospital again contracting. I had no idea. I never felt anything. At one point, I said to my husband, “It feels like I peed a little bit.” He was like, “You have a catheter in.” I was like, “Yeah, but I feel wet.” It turns out that my water broke on its own which was nice but I didn’t have any urge to push or anything like that. 

They said, “We’ll let you just hang out for a couple of ours. Just let us know if you feel that urge.” That urge never came so they said, “Let’s start pushing anyways because it’s been a little bit since your water broke.” I said, “Okay.” We pushed for about an hour and a half and then at that point again, baby started having some decels and it looked like baby was starting to not tolerate labor that well. 

Slowly, the vibe became a little more tense. The message started to be, “Okay. It’s time to get this baby out. We have to push this baby out sooner than later.” At some point, the call was made to use the vacuum to help that happen sooner. That was all explained to us and we said, “Okay, sure.” The vacuum was used and then the baby came out two pushes later. 

When my son was born, I didn’t get to hold him right away. He wasn’t crying. They took him over to the warmer right away. He had no tone. His body was completely limp. He wasn’t crying. He was breathing, but only barely and had the flared nostrils and all of those telltale signs that he was working really, really hard. 

Meagan: The traction and all of that. 

Nicole: Yeah, so they had him on the bag and worked on him for about 15 minutes. In that time, he never cried. He never perked up so it was decided that he needed to go off to the NICU to get some extra attention there. 

My husband went with him to the NICU. I stayed behind. I ended up having a third-degree tear that required some attention. They took me up to the NICU once I was all ready to go a couple of hours later. It turns out that he had a severe meconium aspiration so he actually ended up spending four days on a ventilator and was in the NICU for nine days. 

Meagan: Was there any sign of meconium when your water broke?

Nicole: Not when my water broke. Before, I think right before the call was made to use the vacuum, I do remember our doctor saying, “It looks like there is a lot of mec in there,” but there was no mention of it when my water broke. 

Meagan: So maybe during labor. 

Nicole: So I’m assuming it was sometime after that but during the labor that it happened. That was a scary experience, but he’s totally fine now. He’s a happy, strong, healthy boy. We just call him as being built to last because nothing phases him. But my VBAC wasn’t necessarily what I had envisioned but ultimately it was really successful and a better emotional experience which is weird to describe because there are a lot of emotions around having a child in the NICU. I didn’t have any issues bonding with him. I felt that connection to care for him right away. 

If anything, if nothing else, I’m hoping that having that VBAC, it will help what will hopefully be my next VBAC better. I’m actually currently expecting. 

Meagan: Awesome! Congratulations!

Nicole: Yep, so we’re hoping that the third time is the charm. Yes, so I’m just shy of 31 weeks. We are due April 1st. 

Meagan: Really soon! Actually, right when this episode airs you will have a baby. 

Nicole: This kid is probably going to be late too. 

Meagan: You’ll either have a baby or just about having a baby. Oh, so fun. 

Nicole: Or will be preparing for one. My husband and I always joke that getting the babies in and getting them out usually takes quite a bit of work, but baking them is where I thrive. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Nicole: The plan again, even with everything that happened with my son, the recovery was quite difficult with a third-degree tear, but we’re going for another VBAC. We’re hoping like I said, if anything, my son will help pave the way for hopefully a smoother, less eventful experience. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Your chances are higher of that. Sometimes that first vaginal birth, even if there is no previous Cesarean, can be a little longer or have things like forceps and vacuum and things like that. It can happen. So hopefully like you said, it will pave the way and be a beautiful redemption. They all have been great but a redemption birth of the two with less drama maybe. 

Nicole: Less drama. Less excitement. I just want a nice, run-of-the-mill birth. But yes so it will be good. I’m glad that I experienced it. I wouldn’t change it. 

Meagan: Yeah. You are still happy with the outcomes. 

Nicole: Yeah. I’m still happy we had the VBAC. Everyone is happy and ultimately, that has always been our thing. Healthy baby, healthy mom. Whatever that looks like, we can deal with but hopefully it looks like a VBAC. 

Meagan: You’ll have to let us know. Definitely let us know. 

Nicole: Yeah, I will for sure. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. I want to talk a little bit about induction. I’ve been taking notes along the way just about things that you’ve said. Right before I get into induction, something that you had said during your first, something that they said to you is that they were just going to dump and cut. You heard that and then you were gone. Those longlasting words, I think it is so important to note to everybody listening especially if you are a provider, that words matter. Words matter. Even though you may not be thinking that something that you say that your patient is going to hold onto, it’s possible that they will. 

I don’t think that you held onto dump and cut, but I heard that and that is a very scary thing. “We’re just going to dump and cut.” I just want to remind everybody to please be mindful of your words when you are with someone especially in a vulnerable state. 

But induction. I want to talk about induction. I just want to talk about what ACOG says and going over 40 weeks and stuff like that. Because Nicole is proof that induction can happen and VBAC can happen. An induction can happen and a VBAC can happen with no complications. Sometimes it can’t and we don’t know why. We can’t always blame induction at all, but I don’t want you to be scared of induction. I don’t want you to be so terrified of induction that it consumes you because I know that some of our listeners are in that space especially because they had an induction that spiraled down and went Cesarean. 

I want to talk about how ACOG concludes that, “Induction of labor between 41 and 7 and 42 and 7 can be considered. 42 weeks to 42 weeks and 7 days is recommended given evidence of increased morbidity and mortality.” Something has changed over time and that is the ARRIVE trial. We have a blog about the ARRIVE trial and we have a blog about induction. We have a blog about going over 40 weeks. 

Since this has happened, we see a lot more people at 40 weeks and if they haven’t had a baby yet, providers are rushing to get babies out. I just want to let you know that doesn’t have to happen, but if you choose to induce, that’s okay too. Just like Nicole said in the beginning of her induction story, no she didn’t qualify for Cytotec or Cervadil because she is a TOLAC, but she had a great induction with a Foley catheter or a Cook catheter. Depending on where you are at, everyone calls it something different. Those are really great alternatives. You do have to be dilated a little. Sometimes they can give Pitocin a little bit and then give a Foley. 

But talk with your providers. I encourage you to talk with your providers. I feel like her provider really said, “Okay. Here’s what we should do and this is why.” It worked out in Nicole’s benefit. I want everyone to know that induction doesn’t have to be scary. Right, Nicole?

Nicole: I don’t think the spiraling with our son had anything to do with the induction. 

Meagan: It just happened. Sometimes we have babies that have a fast transition or during pushing and meconium is really common too. So yeah. I know people who go into spontaneous labor and have meconium and I know people with meconium aspiration with induction. It just happens. I felt like there are lots of people on here who are living proof that induction is possible but Nicole just said it right here. She’s been induced and she had two very different circumstances with induction. Take it slow. Speak with your providers. Go over all of your options and remember that words matter.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

For our final holiday special podcast episode, we want to help you feel as physically prepared as possible when going for your VBAC!

Stephanie of My Essential Birth joins Meagan to share her wisdom from her own two VBAC births as well as what she has helped women learn through her many years as a birth worker. 

You will hear tips on how to choose and vet providers, three free exercises that might just make all the difference during your labor, and the secret lesson Stephanie has learned that she wants all of our listeners to know. 

Additional Links

Stephanie's Website and Course

Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy Podcast

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

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Full Transcript

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is the end of the year. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and I have another holiday edition for you. Today is one that I am so excited about because this is someone that I know personally. She’s a dear friend of mine and we have taken similar journeys through our doula careers, so it’s really fun to be with someone that I already know and that we have the same mindset and goals for all of you out there. 

This is Stephanie and she is amazing. So amazing. She is a mom and a doula. She’s had a VBAC and she actually has an amazing course through My Essential Birth. That’s correct, right? My Essential Birth? 

Stephanie: Yep. 

Meagan: It’s a course on how to prepare and get ready for birth. She has the same drive, I feel like, and passion as I do to get the information out to all of you and to help you know what is best for you whether it be, again, scheduling a repeat Cesarean or having a VBAC or maybe you’re a first-time mom and you just want to know how to go along the way, seriously, Stephanie is going to be that person for you. So I’m so excited today to have her on. Welcome, Steph. 

Stephanie: Thank you. That’s quite an introduction. I love it. Come to my podcast. Do the same thing. 

Meagan: No, no seriously. I was going to say, she has a full-on introduction here too. But you are amazing. You are so amazing and I love what you have done with My Essential Birth. You’re busy. You’ve got three kids. You’ve got three kids and something too that is really fun is every single birth has been so different which I think just broadens your knowledge and passion, even more, to do what you do because for me, my births were all so different and I don’t know, I really don’t know if I would be here today if I didn’t have all of those births. 

Stephanie: Yeah, 100%. Yes. 

Meagan: Don’t you feel like these experiences in our lives have brought us here today and have brought passion to our hearts? But yeah. On top of that, you homeschool. You do so many things. You wear so many hats, so I’m so grateful for you taking the time today to talk to us about all of the amazing things that you do. 

But I think one of the really cool things right off the bat is, let’s talk about your VBACs and how you really got started in all of this. 

Stephanie: Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head because 100%, if I hadn’t had the experiences with the births that I have had, I wouldn’t have not only the passion but the knowledge from seeing things go wrong. It makes me think of when I was 16 and I got my first car and it was a piece of crap and everything broke down on it so I had to learn about things [inaudible]. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Stephanie: No, I’m not comparing my body to a car, but I will say that those experiences totally shaped the way that I do what I do today and the passion behind it. My first baby– now, mind you, in my head, this was my goal. I wanted to go unmedicated. It was what I wanted to do. I just wanted to have that experience for myself for no particular reason. That’s just what I wanted to do. 

We got around 34-35 weeks and I was reading a birth story online. Mind you, this was 13, 14 years ago, so it was a little bit ago not like what we see today with birth stories and stuff, but I’m at work and bawling because I’m super pregnant. 

I’m like, “That’s what I want my birth to be like,” so I researched the classes that kind of went along with this book and I reached out to some local birth educators. It was this 12-week series and I had four or five weeks left to go. There was this one lady that was like, “Okay, I’ll do these intensive courses on the weekend if you could make it.” I’m over like, “My husband works every weekend. We’re super broke.” She was going to do it for this bigger prize. I’m like, “It’s fine. I’ll wing it. It’s going to be fine.”

Fast forward to that birth and missing some red flags, things like my provider telling me when first of all, he didn’t want to have the conversation until 36 weeks about what the birth was going to be like, so I told him early on, “I don’t want to have an epidural. I want to go unmedicated.” He was like, “We don’t talk about that until 36 weeks.” That was a red flag, but I didn’t know any better. 

Meagan: Interesting, yeah. Because that’s what they do. 

Stephanie: Uh-huh and I was like, “Okay. Sure.” Totally. He was super old school. There were a couple of things and just the way that he talked to me that I should have caught on, but when 36 weeks came and I said, “I really want to go unmedicated,” and whatever and he was talking about, “Well, I actually let my patients get their epidurals much earlier than others. Why be in pain?” And I’m like, “No, it’s really important to me.” And then he continued with, “Well, women with size 5.5 shoes and smaller tend to have Cesarean births.” 

Now, mind you, I’m a small person. I’m 5’0”. My shoe size is 5.5 and I’m sitting there just, “You’ve got to be freaking kidding me,” because my grandmother who was 4’10”, and her grandmother. I’m just going down the line like, “Nobody would be here. What are we talking about?” But at the same time, I’m a new mom. It’s my first birth. I’m scared, so I stayed with him, and anyways, the cascade of intervention that happened was my water broke with just a trickle. I didn’t have contractions. The provider ended up telling me once I was at the hospital that I needed to have Pitocin and I say that because I remember asking the nurse, “Did he say that word need?”

She was like, “I’ll come back.” But she was like, “He said need.” So I said, “Okay, well then I must need Pitocin.” So we took Pitocin. That baby did not do well with it. He couldn’t crank up the Pitocin enough to make the contraction strong enough to actually make labor progress because my baby’s heart rate would drop. That was, in my opinion, a medically-caused Cesarean because yes, when I have a baby in distress, then there we are. 

So that was my first experience with birth. I didn’t connect with my baby right away. On top of being a new mom and figuring out life, I had just had abdominal surgery. I was a mess of emotions and then the next two births are where I found some redemption and healing and passion and power for women’s bodies and what we can do. 

During my second birth, we had moved overseas to Germany and I was meeting with a doctor. I’d met with an OB but it was actually midwives who you give birth with. I had taken a really good birth course and I had been practicing a lot of stuff. I did not understand a ton about positioning though for my baby and so I had two days of prodromal labor which is not that big of a deal. 

Two days of prodromal labor, then finally things kicked in and I was in full active labor, but then I had pushing contractions at 4 centimeters, so now, my doula brain goes, “Oh, it’s a positional thing. I have all of these ideas,” but then, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m not going to make it.” And then too, the wonderful German nurse there– there was a little bit of a language barrier for sure, but I was like, “I really want to get into the water.” She was like, “Oh, later. And also, I have something, honey, that will take all of that away. You just let me know if you want a little bit. We’ll just stick it in the bum. A little bit of pain meds.” At the time, I was like, “Yeah, that’s a good idea. Let’s try that.” 

But I had the pain meds. That ended up being like, I was comfortable before two contractions before my water broke. It took the edge off enough that my body was like, “Let’s get things started,” but then the contractions were right back on. I did end up with an epidural for that birth. My baby did fine with the Pitocin. I pushed that baby out vaginally. I wasn’t forced into another Cesarean or anything and that birth was amazing. I was very, very pleased with the way that that birth went. 

And then we were moving from Germany back to the United States, particularly to North Dakota. If you know anything about North Dakota, they don’t even have– my midwife was not a licensed midwife on purpose. You cannot be a licensed midwife and deliver babies outside of a hospital setting. They can get arrested. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s illegal. 

Stephanie: It’s not the black market, but she’s not licensed. She was a direct-entry midwife. So we were moving back from overseas to North Dakota and I called the hospital first before I met with a home birth midwife. They told me, “Well, we don’t really care that you’ve had a vaginal birth after Cesarean. You had a Cesarean before, so you need to plan for another scheduled Cesarean birth,” so talk about my red flags now. 

Meagan: You’re like, “Nope. Nope.” 

Stephanie: No way. I’m going to do whatever I have to do. So I did. I reached out to a home birth midwife. I found a doula and all of those things that I probably should have done with baby #1. We planned for me to have an unmedicated experience at home. I was really excited about that up until 35, 36 weeks. I had a breech baby for one and that breech baby, we were able to get him turned, so that part went away, but then it was the mental game of, “Can I actually do this? You’ve never not had an epidural.” All of that self-talk starts happening and it’s not good. My doula was like, “Here’s a list of affirmations. Take what you like. Leave the rest and start saying them out loud several times a day every day.” 

And so I did that and within a week or so, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I went from being scared and nervous to confident and excited. I was like, “I can do this.” So that baby had a week of prodromal labor. It was about 5 or 6 days of prodromal labor and then things get moving and I have some active labor that hit, but my contractions never really got closer than about 6 minutes apart. 

They would last a minute to two minutes long, but they were never those super crazy close, consistent. Things kept going off in my head like, “If I was in the hospital, I definitely would have been offered a Cesarean birth.” It wouldn’t have been a question, especially in that hospital. These contractions were coming. My midwife, we finally call her and I’m like, “Look. I’ve been in prodromal labor and now it’s active labor, but they’re not closer than 6 minutes.” She checks me and I’m 6 centimeters. I was like, “My labor is progressing on my own.” It was so cool. 

And then it was another 12 hours from that point and I had my baby. But it was incredible. Those contractions and just knowing that my body was doing what it was meant to do. There was a point where I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m so tired. I need to sleep.” For sure, we went upstairs. I slept for 45 minutes. I had two contractions. It was another moment where I was like, “Yeah.” If I was at the hospital, somebody would say, “Oh, she’s stalling. We’ve got to do something.” Whatever. 

But those two contractions and the second one, I woke up and I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is happening? I can’t do this anymore.” Sure enough, I’m thinking, this better be transition. My midwife comes in. She had heard me. She was sleeping downstairs. She comes to the door. She’s like, “Do you want me to check you?” I’m like, “Yes, please. Let’s see where I’m at.” She’s like, “You’re 9.5 with a bouncy lip of cervix. You’re good to go. Let’s get you to go to the bathroom. You can get in the birth tub now.” So we did that and i can laugh about it now, but I went downstairs. I went to the bathroom and after I was done peeing, I had my first pushing contraction. 

I remember telling my husband, “I don’t want to give birth on the toilet. I have to get out of here.” 4.5 hours later because of the mental blocks that I had– we can laugh about that now, but at the time, it was very serious. Like, “I’d better get to the birth tub.” 

Meagan: Yeah. I’d better get out of here. 

Stephanie: Yeah, but it was wonderful. I will tell you the differences. The major differences for me in the spaces that I was in for being able to give birth unmedicated and as a VBAC, my birth team made the biggest difference. When I was at home and feeling like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t do this anymore. Oh my goodness. I’ve been pushing so long. I’m so tired,” everyone was like, “But you are doing it. You’re doing great. Keep it up.” I’m like, “Oh. I can take that in and chill and feel supported.” 

So I did. We kind of joke about, first of all, I was making noises that my husband the next day told me, “You sound like the screaming goats.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I do.”

Meagan: I was called a cow. My husband was like, “You’re a mooing cow in there.” I’m like, “Thank you so much.”

Stephanie: Well, the best part of this story, I actually love this story, the next day, my husband is sitting at the table and showing our little boys the screaming goat video. His mom’s walking down the stairs and goes, “You recorded her?!” 

Meagan: Uh-uh!

Stephanie: So I’m like, “Okay, yeah. I get it. I get it. I really did sound like that.” 

Meagan: You really did sound like that. That is so funny. 

Stephanie: But anyways, I’m pushing all this time and I do remember hitting a point even during pushing, I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t do this.” I was scared. I had never pushed a baby out before. Instead of holding my breath and bearing down, I was purposely breathing through my nose and not leaning into that pushing. My husband was finally like or I told him, “You need to make the bed. I need to get out of the tub,” because in my head, all I’m thinking about was, “If I can’t do this, then I’m going to have to go to the hospital. We’re going to have to call an ambulance. The lights are going to be on. There’s going to be people I don’t know.” I had to walk myself through all of those things. 

Meagan: You were really deep in that space. Yeah. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I was like, “No. This has to happen here because I can’t deal with all of that.” So I told my husband, “Go upstairs. Make the bed.” I was like, “Make sure you get the lining down so we don’t mess up the mattress and all of that.” When he went upstairs, it was the first time that I paused and tuned into myself. I just said a quick prayer and for me, I call God Heavenly Father. “Heavenly Father, please. I can’t do this alone. I’m scared.” 

My husband comes down the stairs. I’m just finishing that prayer. He’s ready to lift me out of the water. He was like, “Come on. Let’s go. Let’s go now.” He went to lift me and I’m like, “No. It’s happening.” Two pushes later, that baby was out. 

Meagan: Oh, that just gave me major chills. 

Stephanie: It was the most spiritual experience of my life. I love everything about it. Yes, it was probably one of the hardest things I’ve ever done physically. Mentally, how it pushes you to your limits, and then you feel like you are the strongest woman alive. You can do anything. You’re a good mother. You’re all of the things. It was that feeling and looking at what I had done through having good support that I was like, “No. We’re lying to women. You know what? If I could do this, anyone can. So now I’m going to become a birth educator and now I”m going to work with women one-on-one. I know that you can do this.” 

So that’s where the passion came from. Those were my birth stories. 

Meagan: I love it. I love it. Oh, that just gave me such chills. You know what’s interesting is I don’t think I’ve ever even heard all of your birth stories like that. 

Stephanie: Oh really? 

Meagan: I don’t think I have. We have some similarities. We have some similarities. 

Stephanie: I know. I’ve read through some of yours too. I love it. Yeah. 

Meagan: Even more. I don’t think I realized. Yeah, maybe I have and it was a long time ago and I forgot, but there are a lot of similarities. I love it. You’ve had these VBACs. You found this passion and here you are today. So in past episodes, we’ve talked about mentally preparing and mentally getting into that space. You just did that. You just talked about that which is so important. 

It is so crucial to be in that space because when we’re out here, we can’t dive into birth. I feel like I did the same thing. I wish that it was recorded so I could really show people how big of a tantrum I was throwing, but I was legitimately throwing a tantrum in my driveway pacing back and forth saying, “If my water wouldn’t have just broken, this would be totally different. This is happening all over again.” I was really spiraling and everyone just sat there. My neighbor was seeing me. She was like, “Oh!” I’m like, “I’m in labor.” She stopped and was like, “Is she okay?” Rick was like, “She’s just gonked or something right now.” 

I had her watching me. My mom was watching me. The kids were like, “Mom!” I’m throwing my hands and voicing everything that was in my head out loud getting it out there but I needed to do that. I needed to do that but as soon as I could get that out, I remember the drive. We were getting in the car to go to the birth center and meet my midwife. I had my baby later that night, but it was the morning before I had my baby and he was just like, “So, how did that feel?” I was like, “So good.” I just remember labor coming on so much stronger. You have to get in that head space. 

We know there is the headspace, but what about the physical? I feel like there is so much goodness that you talk about. The physical aspect of preparing for birth and not even just preparing to actually give birth, but preparing and creating that team and creating that environment. 

One of the first things is knowing your stuff. How can our listeners know their stuff? Right now, they are listening to this, so this is what you can do to know your stuff. But yeah. When you say ‘know your stuff’, what would that all entail? What would you suggest?

Stephanie: Yeah, this is kind of the tricky thing that I’m always weighing one thing against the other where it’s knowing what you want for your birth and how to get there and then making sure that you’re vetting your provider. They really do go hand in hand but it’s really tricky because just depending on what order you take, you may have to change up one or the other. But when it comes to understanding what you need in order to have the birth that you desire, one of the things that I tell moms to do is, “Take a meditative moment. Close your eyes and take some deep breaths. Picture yourself from that very first contraction through to when you give birth. What does that look like? Where are you? Who is around you? What are the lights like? What do you smell? What do you see?”

That will help you decide. It gives you some idea of how to get there or what you’re going to need in order to get there. I’ll do this exercise with moms and moms that were planning to give birth at a hospital but never make it there in their minds. They’re at home. They don’t ever get in the car to go to the hospital. They’ve had their baby at home. So I think really understanding what you are looking for. And even for a mom that has that experience, she’s planning to give birth at a hospital, but she has this really calm, relaxing thing at home, it doesn’t necessarily mean that she needs to be giving birth at home although it could, maybe it’s more of, “So I need to have control over my body, control over the situation. I need to be in my own clothes,” and those sorts of things. 

Meagan: Oh, I love that you just said that. 

Stephanie: And really understanding what is creating that image in your mind. But of course, I’m going to talk about taking a good birth course because not only is that what I did that was so life-changing for me but that is what I help moms do today just like you have a birth course where you talk about preparing for VBAC. A good birth course is going to include all of those things like how to stay healthy and low-risk with nutrition, and good exercise that you can do not just moving your body and keeping your heart rate, but what are things positionally that you can do for yourself and your baby? How are you going to stretch the perineal area or use the specific muscles that are going to be used for birthing and labor time? 

That’s going to be all the way through understanding each phase of labor, how to work with your birth partner, how they can support you, how relaxation can be so important and meditation, all the way through to birth and postpartum. That includes every situation that can happen on the way. When you walk into your birth space, are you going to have an IV or wear your own clothes? Do you want to have intermittent fetal monitoring or do you want to be on the monitor the whole time? If you’re talking induction, what are your options? 

So I think really understanding what your options are, and some of that changes as your birth changes or as other options are provided whether or not you have gestational diabetes or if you’re GBS positive. Those are different decisions you have to play with and make, but if you like listening to podcasts, taking a good birth course, watching birth videos, if you’re gathering all of that information and coming together for yourself deciding what you want for yourself, then you can move into asking the right questions to help that provider because that really is the next step.

You can have this wonderful birth that you have thought of and dreamed of in your mind and if your provider is not on the same page, if they are not supportive, you might not get it at all and it’s not even your fault.

Meagan: I know. That is so hard because sometimes we don’t know what it looks like to have that supportive provider. We don’t know what it looks like because for me, with my first birth, I went to my OB and he was really nice and welcoming, and charming. I was like, “Cool. He’s rad. He’s great,” and then there were the red flags but I didn’t see those red flags.

It's so hard to know how to find that provider and you say to vet your provider. What do you mean by vetting your provider and what tips would you give to start that process and know right away what you really want to look for?

Stephanie: Yeah. I’m glad you asked that. I think probably one of the best things you can do is meet with more than one and different practices.

Meagan: Yes. Yes. Different practices are such a big thing because even the one provider in the same practice, they’re going to have similarities so it is so important to branch out. When I was going that with my VBAC baby, I did. I went to multiple people and I could physically feel the difference without even speaking to anybody.

Stephanie: Yes. 100%. I always said that I didn’t believe I was intuitive at all just as a person, I don’t feel like I am in touch with myself. If that’s you, you’re wrong. Just like you explained right there, we do. You know when you have conversations with other people or you walk into a room. There’s a feeling there and how you’re treated matters.

The problem is, I think and I mean, I’m guilty of it too. I think we put providers on this pedestal and they’re kind of untouchable. They’re above us in some way because they’re gone to school and they’ve got knowledge about things that we don’t. In some ways, maybe that’s true. That’s why we hire them because they have skills that we need that we can’t meet while we are in our vulnerable state.

The other side of that is that they are also a person and how they treat us matters. And so when you are asking questions and meeting with providers, how are you feeling? Were you respected? Were you rushed when you bring up something? Providers will actually eye roll or laugh at some of the things that you say. That’s a red flag.

Meagan: It’s so true. Yes.

Stephanie: I say too, you know what? Go meet with a birth center out-of-hospital provider. You don’t have to plan on giving birth there at all. Pay attention to how you are treated. How does that feel for you? For people that are maybe interested in that and they are like, “Oh, that’s so scary and my husband doesn’t want to or my birth partner really doesn’t want me out of the hospital,” great. Go take him and have a free interview with an out-of-hospital care provider and just see how you feel. If you hate it or it’s not for you, then that’s great but I think that you need to have the contrast. I think you deserve to have the contrast.

It’s the same with doulas. I’m like, “You don’t know if you want a doula? Great. Go meet with one anyways. It’s a free consult and then you can decide.” But vetting a provider, like I said, you have to have some questions going in. VBAC-specific moms, they’re going to want to know things like, “Okay. For a mom like me, I’m healthy and low-risk. It’s my second baby and I’ve only had one Cesarean birth. What does it look like for someone like me in your practice having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean? What are your percentage rates? Do you use the VBAC calculator or how do you decide? Do you induce? What are your reasons for induction and can I say no?” You always can but it’s always fun to ask a provider, “Can I say no?” The answer should always be yes but it might not be. “We’ll talk about it when we get there.”

So you have to have some specific questions that you’re bringing in to decide if this is somebody that you can handle and you are probably maybe not going to match up on every single thing. That’s okay too, but are those big things being met? I think that’s what helps you decide, “Is this going to be a good match for me or not?”

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. And just tuning into your overall feeling. Like you said, providers can eye roll and they can be subtle. They can be subtle, really subtle, right? Even midwives can do that too.

Stephanie: Oh totally, yes.

Meagan: OBs, midwives, it’s so important to really tune into that. I think it’s so important to do that even before becoming pregnant too. Sometimes to find an OB—if you are thinking that you want to become pregnant soon and you have an OB or a midwife, start there. That’s totally fine, but it’s okay to branch out and say, “I’m not expecting yet. I’m preparing. I want to find that provider right from the beginning.” Sometimes that doesn’t happen, but I think it’s good to do if you can. I mean, I wasn’t pregnant and I went to 12 providers.

Stephanie: I love it.

Meagan: 12 providers which were maybe excessive. Maybe, but that’s what I needed. I needed to go and I needed to hear all of their things and feel all of that in those environments. I chose the provider that I thought was totally amazing. He still is. I’m not saying he’s not, but for me, I thought he was perfect. He was exactly what I needed out of everybody and then I still changed at 24 weeks, right?

And so a lot of people are like, “Why would you change? He’s so supportive.” I’m like, “He is so supportive and I still feel all the good, but something is not resonating.” That’s okay too. Even if you do find your provider. Say at your appointment, you find your provider and you’re not feeling it or you’re getting things like Stephanie where it’s like, “Hey, this is what I want to do.” “We don’t talk about that yet.” Those types of things, if they are not willing to hear you and they don’t want to know how they can help you in this birth experience, are red flags.

Don’t feel like you have to stay like both Stephanie and I did because I felt like I had to stay too. I felt like I was cheating on my provider if I left him. He had gone this far with me. He had supported me this far, but at the same time, I truly believe I probably wouldn’t have had that second Cesarean. I really don’t believe that if I would have changed, but it’s okay because it’s my birth story and that’s why I’m here, but it’s okay. It’s okay if you’re feeling off and you want to change. It’s okay to do that.

Stephanie: Yeah. I think you can’t shout that from the rooftops enough because it’s true. You do feel like, “Oh, I’m going to hurt their feelings or something.” No, you’re not and if you do, who cares? You’re never going to see them again. Let it go.

Meagan: Exactly.

Stephanie: It’s so important for you and your future. It’s such an important moment for you. It doesn’t matter. It should trump that.

Meagan: It should trump that. Someone else’s feelings. That’s the hardest thing. We have so many people out there. If you are a people pleaser, you’re not alone and it’s easy to please your provider. You want to please your provider, but remember, they are working for you. They are there for you. If they’re not pleasing you, it’s okay to leave. It is okay to leave and so yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, but I do encourage people to tune in, follow their hearts, tune into that and do what’s best for them because if they don’t truly vet their provider, it can make or break an experience.

Stephanie: Yeah, it can. A good provider is going to help make it just like you said. My midwife and my doula who were in that third birth, oh my gosh. They are a part of my life forever whether they like it or not. You are bonded with those people forever and you need that kind of support in your life.

Meagan: Right, yes. Yes. Okay, so we’re talking about knowing your stuff and vetting your provider. Now, let’s talk about putting in the work. We’ve got these things. Now, going for it. What things would you suggest?

Stephanie: Yeah as far as putting in the work, I really recommend– and I have it on my website as well and you can tell me if you like these ideas or not, but I recommend these three exercises that you can do every day. First is the forward-leaning inversion. You’re literally—you get up on a low-lying chair or couch probably with support. Put a pillow down in front of you. Get your elbows on the ground with your bum in the air and you hold that for three breaths. You do that once a day. If you’re somebody who has heartburn or something, obviously, you’re maybe going to want to not do that depending on how the heartburn is or there are a couple of people who shouldn’t do that.

Basically, that is really good because it releases certain ligaments. It allows more room for baby. It allows for really good positioning. That’s something that you can do to make sure baby is in a good position.

Meagan: Every day.

Stephanie: Every day. An easier, more comfortable labor. The other thing you’re going to do is pelvic tilts. You can choose to do how many you want, but I like to do them at least when I get up in the morning and before I go to bed. That’s 20-40 tilts. That’s in the hands-and-knees position. You’re tilting your pelvis forward and into a flat back, forward and into a flat back.

Again, that’s strengthening certain areas. It’s helping baby’s position. Those are really, really good for you to be doing.

The third one is the squat. This is a deep-seated squat. It’s not like we are going to grab weights and do a weighted squat or anything like that. This is like how you see people in third-world countries who don’t have chairs or new babies, toddlers when they go down to squat and play with something, look at that squat because that’s the one that you are going for.

The reason for that is because it stretches the perineal area. It strengthens the muscles in your legs. Chances are when it was pushing time, you’re going to be in some kind of squat. Now maybe not, but chances are the majority of us are going to end up there. The other thing about squatting is that it shortens the birth canal, it makes it easier to be able to push baby out and that’s why we end up in that position but if you’re practicing that squat specifically, and this is where my husband was so good. “I’ll tell you what, for every minute you squat for the day, I will give you a minute of massage at the end of the night.” I was like--

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Done. Done, done, done.

Stephanie: An hour a night, I am not joking. So he was so good supporting me that way, but I’ll tell you what, when I started squatting and it was probably later in my pregnancy like 34-35 weeks. When I started squatting, it was 1-2, maybe 3 minutes before my legs were numb, my feet hurt and I had to stand up. Everything was tingling, but a couple of weeks in, I could hold it for 15 minutes comfortably.

So when I was telling you before that I was pushing for 4.5 hours, I was in a birth tub in a squatted position for that amount of time—

Meagan: Wow.

Stephanie: --and I remember thinking, “I’m so glad I practiced these squats because I wouldn’t have had the stamina.” As far as physical prep, those are things that you can do every single day.

Meagan: I love that.

Stephanie: Thank you. I know and I’m like, you and I have taken some similar training and stuff. It’s valid. It’s real.

Meagan: It really is.

Stephanie: The other things that you can do are, let’s stay healthy and low-risk. That means you’re eating a high-protein diet. You’re drinking a lot of water. You’re taking your prenatals, well-balanced. That matters because it can keep things like preeclampsia at bay. It’s also going to make you feel better and give you more energy, so there are a lot of benefits to that. But my favorite part of staying healthy and low-risk is that you remain in charge of your birth decisions. That’s why it matters to me so much. It’s not even just for the health of myself and my baby. It also comes down to, “I want to have a say as to how all of this goes.”

So those are some of the physical things. Then we move into the, once I understand how birth works, what are the signs that I’m in labor? What are the signs I’m in active labor? How do I work with my body? Learning things like relaxation and I do that through relaxation practice. Even just a simple one, and you can do this with your birth partner or by yourself, but you set up this stage. So use your senses. You should be leaning back in a chair or in your bed lights dimmed with essential oil or a consistent smell that your body gets used to smell. You just practice breathing deep into your belly. Imagine how you breathe when you wake up in the morning. First thing, pay attention to how you breathe when your eyes first open. It’s really deep belly breaths so try to aim for that.

Do that for 10 minutes. Just go from your head to your toe and be like, “Okay. I’m going to feel the hairs on my head relax, and then my eyebrows, and then my jaw.” All the way down. The thing is, it’s not easy to do when you’re not used to relaxing but when you utilize all of those senses, then it becomes something called muscle memory.

So if I know my body knows because I’ve been doing this for the last several months that every time the lights are dimmed and I smell lavender essential oil and I’m breathing into my belly, then when you do those things during labor, it’s like, “Oh, lights are dimmed and lavender,” then you don’t really have to think about it.

Meagan: It’s intuitive.

Stephanie: Yes. “I’m supposed to relax now.” And then obviously you need to practice relaxation. Once you get good at that, you can practice it with the lights on, with the TV on, with your husband or kids walking through the room because that’s the reality of birth and especially if you’re in a hospital.

Meagan: Yes, yes.

Stephanie: But learning relaxation is really important. And then you move into—there’s a lot more to do with that like meditation and the mental stuff and all of that. Labor rehearsal where you practice with ice and other things. There is plenty that you can do, but I would say relaxation, your three exercises, and staying healthy and low-risk are probably just top of the list things that you can do on a daily basis.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. So good, so good. I love that you talked about preparing and then it becomes muscle memory. It’s so true. It’s so, so true. I encourage if you’re ever in a moment where you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed to dive into that because there are going to be moments in labor and birth when you might feel stressed and overwhelmed. If you can practice doing that in those moments, oh my gosh. It’s going to be so beneficial.

So I know we’re almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for time?

Stephanie: That would be that you can say ‘no’ to anything. I feel like I teach this all day long and I talk about it a lot. I don’t know how often moms let that register because they will know that and then you’ll get with their provider and they’re doing non-stress tests or whatever and it’s like, all of a sudden, oh crap. I need this and this and this. No. You can actually say ‘no’ to literally anything.

Meagan: Anything, yeah.

Stephanie: Anything, yeah. They can’t do anything. The best that they can do is make you sign, what is it?

Meagan: An AMA.

Stephanie: A medical release, yeah. AMA, against medical advice.

Meagan: Against medical advice.

Stephanie: Sign it. Sign it. It’s your body. You get to choose. And then kind of like I talked about, when I talk about health and nutrition, I think a lot of times, moms don’t register. “Okay, yeah. I get it. I’m supposed to be healthy.” But it’s so you can be low-risk and in charge of your birth. I think that’s a really important part of that.

Meagan: Yes. I think so too. It’s so hard. It’s so hard to be in that moment and be like, “Uh, okay.” When you’re like, “I really wanted to say no. I had a prenatal last night with a client and they were like, “One of the biggest things that we don’t want to do is go in and just say yes to everything. That’s one of their biggest goals is not to just say yes to everything. They’re not saying, “We want to refuse everything,” they’re just saying, “We want to be educated and we want to know what we’re saying yes to.”

It's so important to know. If you are saying yes, know why you are saying yes. And if not, it’s okay to say no or “One moment. Let me think about it.” It’s okay because there are times where things are going to be thrown at you and it is hard to say, “No” or actually, “I want more time” or “I’m not sure about that right now” but you can. You can. You have the right to say no. You have the right. So it’s so important to know. I love that. Any last final tips for someone preparing for VBAC that you would like to give to our listeners?

Stephanie: I think we’ve kind of touched on this before. It just really matters who you pick for your provider. I know we kind of talked about some things that warrant a red flag or time to interview somebody else or something, but really, if you’ve got that education and you’ve got that provider piece, you’re setting yourself up for success. It should be somebody that supports you, not tolerates the opportunity to try for a VBAC, but somebody who believes in the natural process of birth and that having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean is more healthy and safer for mom and baby than having another abdominal surgery. I think that matters that you’ve got somebody that believes that way.

Meagan: Totally. I love that. Oh, well thank you so much for being here with us today. I want you listeners to know that she has the three free, that’s what you say, right?

Stephanie: Yes, three free exercises.

Meagan: Three free exercises. I’m having a hard time lately with tongue twisters. Three free exercises, so we are going to be providing that in our email. If you’re not subscribed to our email, please check it out because we are going to be providing so many new things and some really exciting upcoming things with The VBAC Link are going to be happening.

We are going to be providing that and then will you tell everybody where they can find you? Because everyone needs to know where you’re at and follow you.

Stephanie: Thank you, yes. So I too have a podcast. It is called Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy. Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy is the podcast so anywhere you listen to podcasts, you can take that in. I’m also on Instagram @myessentialbirth, Facebook, TikTok, all the things, and then if you are looking for information on the birth course or anything else in regards to where some of the podcast show notes and some of that live, it’s myessentialbirth.com.

Meagan: Yes and all of these will be listed in our show notes today so if you want to go follow her which I promise you that you do, go click that and give her a follow because her content is amazing. Her podcast is amazing and it’s been such an honor to have you here today.

Stephanie: Thank you, Meagan. I love what you do too and I love that we get to do this together.

Meagan: Me too. Yeah, so before we let everyone go, I didn’t really give a full, “Hey, we know each other,” but we actually were in the same doula course. We became doulas together which seems like forever ago, but it was so fun to be there and to learn. You had already had your VBACs, hadn’t you?

Stephanie: I did.

Meagan: Yes and I hadn’t yet. I had only had my two Cesareans and so I just remember you being so inspirational to me and motivating me. I was like, “Okay. She could do it. She’s here. She is doing this too. We have the same interests,” and I just connected to you so much.

Stephanie: Same, yeah. Well then, and now look at you with The VBAC Link. You just took off. I love it.

Meagan: I love being here and I love being here with all of our listeners, so again, listeners, thank you so much for being here with us today, and thanks again, Steph.

Stephanie: Thank you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Lindsay’s first birth was a planned home birth which ultimately resulted in a hospital transfer and emergency C-section. She was left feeling unprepared, unheard, and committed to fighting for a VBAC next time. 

Lindsay worked for months preparing for a VBAC both physically and emotionally. Once labor started, she was coping extremely well with her intense contractions. She arrived at the hospital at 10 centimeters, ready to have her baby!

Until…her contractions completely stopped. Lindsay shares with us how she overcame ultimate doubt when pushing continued for over four hours. 

Doubt can creep in at any time on your VBAC journey. Trust yourself and your preparation. Lean into your supportive birth team. We know you can do this!

Additional links

The VBAC Link Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. This is Women of Strength Wednesday and you are tuned in to The VBAC Link podcast with Julie and Meagan and our special guest, Lindsay, today. We were actually just chitchatting a little bit before we pressed record about different providers and how they influence birth outcomes. Sometimes you will have a provider who is surprisingly more supportive than you would expect them to be and vice versa, right? So we are going to talk about that and all the different parts of Lindsay’s story in a little bit. 

Before we do that though, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.

Review of the Week

Meagan: Yes I do. This is from RokFray and it says “Getting VBAC Ready. This podcast has been inspiring and motivational to me as I prepare for a VBAC with my fourth baby. Listening to each of these stories and realizing that through listening I have learned how to advocate for myself and my family has been a true blessing. Thank you!”

And I just want to say thank you to RokFray for sharing your review. Julie and I say it all the time. We love your reviews. We truly mean it. And honestly, we are running out of some reviews because we haven’t been recording for so long. We haven’t had a ton of reviews here coming in and so we would love some new, fresh reviews so we can read them on future podcasts.

Julie: You never know. Maybe next week, we will read yours.

Meagan: Yep.

Julie: I love it. I always remember that time when somebody was Review of the Week and they posted on their Instagram. Well, I guess it has happened a couple of times, but it just makes me happy. Getting reviews, reading them, and everyone letting us know how we have been helping you so thank you, thank you. It means a lot to us.

Lindsay’s Story

Julie: All right. Let’s get to it. We have Lindsay with us today. Lindsay is an Advertising Account Director and a mom of two. She loves being a mom and thinks bringing babies earthside is one of the most surreal experiences that we have as mothers. “Childbirth is the best lesson a mother can experience,” she says. “A lot is out of our control, so plan for the worst and hope for the best.” 

Do you know what that reminds me of? That reminds me of when I was in the military. Plan for the worst and hope for the best because I don’t know if anybody out there listening is in the military, or a military spouse, or has ever been in the military, but you know that whenever things can go wrong if there is a possibility, then it probably will go wrong. So you have got to just kind of expect not very much, but hope for great things. That just reminded me of that when I was just reading your bio. Lindsay. But I like that sentiment because you can prepare for all of the things, right? You can prepare for all of the outcomes, but always hope for and even expect the best outcomes as well. So I love that.

But Lindsay, why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more and share your story with us?

Lindsay: awesome. Thanks so much, Julie. So I will start with my pregnancy and the birth of my son which was my first C-section. It took us a while to get pregnant with my son. We thought that it was going to be quite simple and it turns out it wasn’t. So with a little bit of help from a fertility specialist, we successfully got pregnant. We were so excited and he recommended that we be handed over to the care of midwives. I had a low-risk pregnancy. I was in great shape, healthy, and a strong BMI, so he felt like this would be the best care provider for what I needed. And then also with my style, he loved that and recommended that we have someone who would be really guiding throughout.

He also recommended that I ask them about homebirth, which was probably unexpected for most coming from more of the traditional Western medicine perspective. So we started on with the midwives. We loved them instantly and homebirth was brought up pretty early on. And so we had planned for a homebirth and in this, my biggest learning was that we really focused on the homebirth and the realities of a homebirth. We didn’t necessarily talk about labor preparation.

So I had read Ina May Gaskin’s Guide to Childbirth and I had chatted with friends who had gone through labor, especially in natural labor and delivery, and so I felt like I was prepared enough until I was 40 weeks pregnant– 40 weeks, 4 days exactly– and my water broke. It was the slow leak. We confirmed that the amniotic sac ruptured. 

I was slowly leaking fluid, but I wasn’t under stress and baby’s heart rate was fine, so we made a little bit of a plan. If I hadn’t gone into labor in 24 hours, then I would go in to the hospital and we would do an induction. If I did go into labor naturally, then I would continue on with a planned homebirth.

So we went home with the instruction to just enjoy each other‘s company and try to wind down. It was really hitting home that this was our last moment where we would have just the two of us and our dog in this house. And so we were anxious, excited, nervous and that was when I started feeling the, “Oh my god. I wonder what labor feels like.” 

At 9:30 p.m., I had my first contraction. It was a very traditional wave. I felt the build. I felt the release. I went through the motions of like, “Okay. I can handle this,” and then quickly let my husband know that, “Okay, so labor is starting.” My mom was coming over and we were prepared for what was about to come. I gave both of them the call sheet for the midwives and we went over the birth plan and were feeling good.

Within an hour, I had all back labor, no break between contractions, was really nauseous, and something just didn’t feel right. I kept saying to my husband and my mom like, “We need to call the midwife. We need to call the midwife,” and they were just calm and steady like, “Lindsay, you are doing great. It’s okay.” And at that point, my mom said, “I think you are having back labor–”

Meagan: Mhmm

Lindsay: “–based on the fact that you don’t have any breaks and it’s just back-to-back.” I had been given the instructions to not go in the water, and so for me, that meant I shouldn’t even be standing in the shower. I was a very cautious first-time laborer and after some pretty frantic, “Call the midwife! Call the midwives!”, my mom and husband in fact called the midwives and we agreed to do a home visit. They were going to come and check on me and likely transfer me to the hospital just because I was having a hard time managing the pain.

And so my midwives came over and checked me. I was only about 5 centimeters dilated. I was having a really hard time managing the pain. It just goes back to total unpreparedness. I had read one book and had some conversations, but I don’t think I necessarily understood the different ways that labor can feel. The thought of it being exclusively in my back was such a foreign concept to me and really unbearable.

We drove to the hospital which was less than five minutes away. My husband was asking me on the way there like, “You are going to do up your seatbelt right?” I could barely sit down. I am not concerned about my seatbelt. And so we get to the hospital in the wee hours of the morning. It’s about 3:00 a.m. and we were waiting now for an epidural.

I am laboring, very vocal, have a lot of discomfort, and am still a little bit unsure if this is normal, where I am feeling it, and not being provided with a lot of reassurance that I am doing great and that this is normal. And so now at this point, I am like a little bit panicked like, “This is a foreign feeling. I don’t know what’s going on. I feel totally unheard and I also feel voiceless. I’m asking questions and I just feel like I am not really being given reassurance and direction.”

Of course, my husband being a first-time dad and first time witnessing labor is also a little bit of a deer in the headlights like, “What is happening? Is my wife okay and is this normal?” And so an hour in, we start asking, “Where is the epidural? Where is the anesthesiologist? We need some sort of pain meds.” My approach was an epidural or bust.

I didn’t want to take fentanyl or laughing gas unnecessarily. I would rather just go for the good stuff and get the epidural. I don’t tolerate pain medication well, and so I was apprehensive about the effects that it would have on me but also recognized that I was feeling like it was an out-of-body experience and like I just couldn’t handle this. I did not have confidence in myself.

So around 4:30, it was like one of those lightbulb moments where I was like, “My massage therapist said if I feel back labor, ask for the bee stings,” which is sterile water injections in my low back.

Meagan: Oh yes.

Lindsay: It was the first time I was able to really advocate for myself in labor. I was like, “Can I get a sterile water injection? I will take the bee stings,” which are definitely a little bit more aggressive than a bee sting. I must have just been stung by really a really lightweight bee in the past.

But I got the sterile water injection and instantly felt relief. At that moment, I was like, “Man, I can handle this. I feel really good about now.” I started to feel proper contractions and a proper wave inching closer to 5:00 and so at that point, I am like, “Okay. I am handling this well.” I suddenly felt the urge to bear down. And so I went to the washroom and as I am sitting I am like, “It feels like I have to poop.” And so my midwife– I am vocalizing this and she is like, “Okay. Let’s give you a quick check,” and so at that point, she was like, “Listen. The anesthesiologist is about to walk in.” She gave me a check and I was 8 centimeters.

Meagan: Wow.

Lindsay: And so she said, “You are at the cusp and so you either get the epidural now or you don’t get it at all.” I was just blindly looking at her for advice and guidance and I was like, “I guess I think I should get it,” and she was like, “I think that is a good decision.” I got the epidural and I felt relief. But going back to preparedness and not feeling heard, at that point, being prepared– I was not prepared for an epidural. 

And so as I am leaning over my husband, he, in turn, was also not prepared. He was like, “I may pass out. That is a very large needle.” I was just like, “Just stick it in me. I need to feel some sort of relief.” As soon as the effects of the epidural kicked in, suddenly I felt like, “There is no turning back. I have just made a horrible decision.” Maybe I was handling labor okay and I was starting to feel some relief. I was just on the cusp of transition because as soon as I had the epidural, I had the hormone shakes and the sweats, and so I was transitioning naturally anyways. The feeling of defeat was really stinking in.

At 5:30 and the direction was, “Rest. You need to sleep and we are just going to flip you on a peanut ball side to side.” So every 30 minutes, my husband and my midwife would wake me up and flip me. It was just side to side with the peanut ball until about 7:00 a.m. At that point, I was 10 centimeters dilated and they decided to just let me continue resting. I felt nothing, so I didn’t feel the urge to push. They said, “Around 10:00-11:00, we will check in and you can start pushing at that point.”

So at that point, they come in and say, “Okay. You need to start pushing.” The piece I missed in this was that my mom and dad had come to the hospital to give my husband some relief so that he could go and have a coffee and a bite to eat because keep in mind, we weren’t planning for a hospital birth, so we were really not prepared. We had a small hospital bag packed and that was about it. 

My dad is asking my midwife, “What if she can’t push this baby out?” and he is kind of leading the horse like, “What is going on? Is there something happening with her or with the baby? What’s the next step?” They were like, “No, no. She has had an epidural. Even if this baby is in a bad position, she can push it out.” And this was the first moment where I heard the baby was in a bad position.

Meagan: Yeah. No one said anything.

Lindsay: No one said anything and I didn’t realize that my water breaking early was likely due to an OP baby. And again, it was just a lack of communication or something that I wasn’t aware of. My dad keeps asking, “What if the baby is turned a little bit?” or “What if the baby is OP?” Like, “Nope. Nope. She’s had an epidural. She can push this baby out okay.”

So we have now gone from homebirth to hospital to feeling really in the dark and really unclear about what’s happening. I had this epidural that I am deeply regretting at this point, but there’s no turning back and it’s time to start pushing and I feel absolutely nothing. And so I push for a couple of hours. No headway is being made. 

At this point, there is a change in the midwife team so I am with a different midwife and she said, “I’m just going to step out of the room,” looking to my husband and I. “When you see a contraction on the monitor, continue to push. Continue to breathe through it and I will be back.”

About 15-20 minutes later, which felt like a lot longer, she came back with the OBGYN on call. He, in a very flat and direct way, said, “You are spiking a fever. The baby’s heart rate is dipping and your heart rate is dropping.” I have incredibly low blood pressure to begin with. So he said, “These three factors, coupled with the likelihood that your baby is OP– we are bringing you in for a C-section.” I was absolutely gutted.

Meagan: Was it like, “Hey, this is why I think a C-section is needed” or it was it like, “This is what we are doing.” Did you feel like you had an option? Do you know what I mean

Lindsay: Yeah. So like, yeah. Totally, totally. So I’m sure you can see two first-time parents who have from a homebirth to now being a hospital to suddenly being told they are having a C-section, which we know absolutely nothing about other than it was a major abdominal surgery.

Meagan: Yeah.

Lindsay: And so I’m sobbing saying, “Can we turn off the epidural? Can we bring down the epidural even a little bit? Rip it out of my vein,” beause I have no concept of how it works, right? My husband is saying, “Can she just push for another 30 minutes?” And very flat, he was just like, “No. The difference in time is five minutes to talk about it now and to open you up in here versus bringing you into the OR.”

Meagan: Whoa.

Lindsay: And so again, my husband and I were just looking at him. There was really no other option that was presented to us at least. We were grasping at straws. He just again reiterated very calmly, “I understand that this is not what you wanted, but we need to get this baby out now.” 

And so they bring us to the OR. My husband is a wreck. We haven’t been prepped for this procedure, so he is waiting as I am signing forms. This amazing nurse is wiping my tears so that I can somewhat sign blindly. It’s about 2:00ish in the afternoon. We get into the OR. We had gone from a dark room with no windows and little candles everywhere to this stark, sterile, bright light environment. A different anesthesiologist came in. The energy was so nonchalant in comparison to the fear and grief that my husband and I were feeling. 

The anesthesiologist was phenomenal. He spoke to us throughout the entire C-section at every stage. He reassured us off the top by saying, “My wife has had two C-sections beyond seeing this through my job on a day-to-day basis. I know exactly what’s going to happen. I will talk to you through this.”

And so he talked us through it. He held my shoulder. My husband held my hand. By this point, I am maxed out on my epidural. I can feel my left side. It was really traumatic beyond just the flow of how the birth went, but also being in this very sterile environment and feeling a lot of what was happening.

But again, the anesthesiologist just was so wonderful, coaching us through it and really, I’m sure he could sense our fear. My sweet little boy came out and was put to my face. I turned and I was like, “I think I’m going to throw up. I am super nauseous.” I am out of it at this point. I wanted to name my son Benjamin, which was not a name that my husband and I had discussed. The anesthesiologist said, “This is no longer something that you have to feel.” He gave me a good shot of fentanyl to really knock me out.

And so, three hours later, I woke up to my husband doing skin-to-skin with my son Miles, not Benjamin and from there, I was confused, disoriented and in a lot of pain and discomfort, wanting to nurse. Breastfeeding was really important to me, really wanting to bring him in for our first latch and even from there, trying to latch my son but not being able to sit up and bring him to my chest, and just having a midwife take my breast and shove it in my baby’s face. I felt like I didn’t matter which, I think, was the furthest thing from the intention. It was rather, “We need to get this done.”

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, but still. I feel like there was such a lack of including you in everything. It was just like things were being done to you versus with you, and so I could see how you were feeling that.

Lindsay: Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So we ended up having two days in the hospital and really focused on nursing and controlling what I could control. So making sure that I was walking as quickly as I possibly could. We were really focused on breastfeeding and getting my son on an every two hours nursing schedule on top of on-demand while focusing on letting him get that long stretch of sleep at night. 

So that’s why I started to excel as a mom and really stepped into my own, but I carried a lot of trauma and grief from that birth. I remember the first night being at home laying in bed, my son was fussing and my husband was walking at the end of the bed back-and-forth with him on his chest. I was just sobbing saying, “You don’t realize how lucky you are. All I want to do is get up and walk my son back-and-forth. This is what I’ve dreamed of and I can’t.”

And so the first few weeks, also feeling like I was pretty helpless in terms of my lack of mobility and how sore I was, and it was just a much longer recovery then I had anticipated and was prepared for. And so at my last discharge appointment, my question was, “Can I do a VBAC? Can I deliver vaginally after a Cesarean?” It was a very clear, “Absolutely. Your baby was OP.” So my son Miles was full OP and he also was 9 pounds, 2 ounces.

Meagan: Hmm, a bigger baby.

Lindsay: So he was pretty big. A bigger baby and at the point of the C-section, he had descended so far down the birth canal that he was just stuck. And so the message was, “You can absolutely do a VBAC. In your next pregnancy, we will focus on a lot of bodywork, chiropractic care, and massage,” so some of the things that I was doing before. 

The big one was diet. I had gained a lot of weight in my pregnancy with my son. I definitely was carrying a bigger baby and that showed, but I was an all belly pregnancy and very active. We are talking hiked 15 kilometers at 38 weeks active. I felt, at that point, pretty defeated. Like, “Okay. I must carry big babies, but for my next pregnancy and birth, I am going to do everything within my control to have a VBAC and whatever else is passed over to the higher powers.”

And so I continued on raising my little boy, really loved being a first-time mom. We were keen to expand our family, and so we ended up getting pregnant a lot sooner than expected. We got pregnant when my son was about nine months and we just made it in on the cusp of when they would endorse and support a VBAC versus mandate or strongly recommend a C-section. Where I am, 18 months is the standard and my babies were exactly 18 months apart. So I really, really just snuck in there.

Julie: Nice, nice.

Lindsay: So I’m pregnant with my second and I just started to consume a ton of literature and content all around VBACs. If something was recommended to me, I did it without hesitation. I went for chiropractic care and massage very early on. I saw an acupuncturist. I did Spinning Babies religiously. I hired a doula and I followed her lead and guidance. I used her as a sounding board and I focused on what I could control which was finding my voice and using it, and learning about birth and labor so that I could be undeniably prepared for what was about to happen.

I also was really keen to have a homebirth just knowing statistically that homebirths for VBACs statistically are more successful in terms of a vaginal delivery. Unfortunately, my midwife team couldn’t endorse that. It was just out of their scope of practice, and so I did have to deliver in hospital. I just focused on really getting over those mental hurdles so that when it came time to being in labor, all I would focus on was just my labor and what was happening within my body.

So at about 37 weeks, I started to actively try to induce labor. I wouldn’t say I was doing anything like drinking a midwives’ cocktail, for example. It was more so just focusing on ensuring that my body was prepared for labor and when my body was ready to go into labor, I was ready right there with it.

I started doing acupuncture weekly. I was drinking my red raspberry leaf tea. I was doing my Spinning Babies, really focusing on inversions and bodywork for strong baby positioning. My baby was head down but not engaged in my pelvis yet, and so I was like, “I just want to make sure that this baby stays where he or she is supposed to be.”

At 40 weeks exactly– she is a due date baby– I went into labor. The piece before this is, I had started pre-labor at about 38 weeks. So for two weeks I was in prodromal labor. Am I saying that correctly?

Meagan: Prodromal labor, mhmm.

Lindsay: Thank you. And so I was consistently feeling strong Braxton Hicks and it was manageable, something that I wasn’t even really noticing because I was so busy with a 17-18 month old, but it was something I was noticing– the feeling and shift in my body. For the four nights leading up to my birth, every night from 11:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m., I would have consistent contractions. It was this feeling of the wave, the build, and the release, but by 5:00 a.m., they would just go away. So on a Monday night, we had called our doula thinking, “I am for sure in labor.” My contractions were getting closer together. They were getting stronger and they were definitely more consistent than the previous waves.

As soon as she entered our house, they stopped. And so I am like, “Yeah. We have just been up for hours tracking this.” Now it was to the point where I was uncomfortable and couldn’t stay in bed. And so we started talking about what I was feeling and I was like, “It just feels like something is tickling my bladder.” She was like, “That, my friend, is a hand. I think your baby has his or her hand in front of her face, so often you will see that start-stop labor pattern because the baby isn’t in a position where you can actively go into labor.”

This was really the start of feeling so heard, being able to talk through what was happening and have a solution provided and also the validation of, “You’re not going crazy. You are feeling something real within your body and it is going to be okay.”

And so she gave me some exercises and very strict direction like, “Do these exercises. Rest today and let’s see what happens that night. Let’s touch base before you go to bed and let see what happens.” So we get my son in bed. We call my doula and she said, “Okay. Here is the plan. You are going to go in the bath. You are going to do this exercise–” where I lay on the pillow and kind of let my leg hang and float.

Meagan: Side-lying. Mhmm. Side-lying probably.

Lindsay: No like, laying face first in the bath.

Meagan: Oh, in the bath. Wow!

Lindsay: In the bath. Yeah.

Meagan: Okay, cool.

Lindsay: Yeah. “You get in the bath. You are going to relax. You are going to lay on your belly and you are going to let it just hang.” My tub was just big enough to do this comfortably. And she was like, “And then from there, you are going to go to bed and you are going to try to get as much sleep as possible. If at 5:00 a.m., your contractions are still strong and consistent, I am coming over and we are going to kickstart this labor.” 

Let’s do it. I felt like we had a plan in place. And so I am laying in the tub and I am just going over my mental mantras like, “You are strong. You are healthy.” I definitely watched my diet in this pregnancy. Not that I was unhealthy with my son, but I was really strict with the sugar that I consumed and what I put inside my body.

I was like, “Your body was made to birth this baby. You can do this.” And so I just had my mantras that I said over and over. I got ready for bed. I tucked in. My husband and I were lying there. At 9:30, I have my first contraction and it feels just like my son.

Meagan: In the back?

Lindsay: All in my back and I am instantly like, “This is–”

Meagan: Triggering, probably.

Lindsay: Triggering, yeah. It’s happening again. And so I’m turning to my husband and I am like, “You need to call the midwives. You need to call the doula. I need to go to the hospital now.” My husband was just such a calm, strong voice of reason. He was like, “Okay Linds. We are going to crank up the bath. We’re going to crank up the bath to a hot, hot heat and get you in it for some comfort and relief and I am going to call the doula.” 

And so I get in the bath and I am sitting facing the long side of the bathtub wall, kind of pressing against it with my knees up, and we are running the water hot. He is pressing on my pressure points and my low back. He calls the doula and he is like. “This is it. She is in labor. This is happening.” And she was like, “Okay. Well, talk to me. What is happening?” And he is now kind of frantic like, “No, no. There is no time for me to tell you what is happening. She is in labor.”

And so he quickly says, “She is in the bath. It is as hot as we can get it. I am pressing on her back and if you don’t come here, we are going to the hospital.” Keep in mind, I was pregnant during COVID, so our doula couldn’t come with us to the hospital. She could only be with us at home.

Julie: Oh man.

Meagan: Yeah, aww. Oh no.

Lindsay: So she gets to the house and it’s now like 10:00ish. She takes over for my husband, pressing on my low back and she is like, “Okay. You’ve got this.” She is like, “You are doing so great, Linds.” She’s asking me how I am feeling. She’s asking me about the sensation and I am like, “It is in my back, but I do get relief when you are pressing on the pressure points. It is just that it’s now in my back and my hips.” I could just feel everything moving down.

And so at 11:00, and an hour where I am in this bathwater, she’s like, “Okay. Let’s get you out and let’s make a plan on what we are going to do.” We knew I had to transfer to hospital because I didn’t feel comfortable birthing a baby without medical support in my home. And so we are standing in my living room, slowly getting me dressed. She transitions to doing these exercises where every contraction, I press up against the wall with loose knees and she lifts my belly up as I lean over her. The whole intention was just ensuring that we were working with my body and baby to get my baby in the best position.

Meagan: Yeah, like an abdominal lift.

Lindsay: I think that’s what it’s called. Don’t quote me on that, but I am going to guess.

Meagan: Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s intense too, for you.

Lindsay: Super intense, but we are in such a good rhythm. We are like, “Now we have a plan for every contraction.” I have the rhythm. I’m feeling really good. She calls the midwives and she’s like, “Okay. Lindsay’s contractions are two minutes apart and consistently a minute long,” and the midwife was like, “Meet me at the hospital now.” I had been in labor for an hour and a half and I knew things were moving quickly.

And so we hang up in my doula was like, “Listen. You are in charge here. We will go to the hospital when you want to go to the hospital. 30 minutes, an hour, we get there when we get there. So what feels good for you?” Again, it was just that validation of feeling a part of what was happening and feeling like I was steering the ship. We decided that my husband was going to pack the car and in the next 30-ish minutes to an hour, I would be at the hospital. 

She was like, “Let’s just continue to focus on this really good rhythm.” So at 11:15, I looked to her and I was like, “I am in transition.” She’s like, “Okay. Tell me what you are feeling. I was like, “I am shaking. My contractions are back-to-back. I am cold and hot at the exact same time. I’m sweating from pores I didn’t even know existed.” She was like, “Yep. You’re definitely in transition,” and very, very calm.

Meagan: Positive things, positive things.

Lindsay: Positive things, yeah. She was like, “We should probably get you into the car.” Just as we were getting downstairs, I had that little pause in contractions and she was like, “Okay. So when you get to the hospital–” reminding me of all of the things to ask for like how many centimeters dilated I am, what station I am at, so on and so forth. 

And so I am feeling good about going and we are kind of waiting. I was still like, “Let’s have one more contraction, and then get me in the car and we will go straight to the hospital. So that’s the plan.”

There was like a little break. I am enjoying the relief and all of a sudden, there was a contraction. I get on the wall and she lifts my belly. I am leaning over her and my husband, and just as she lifts my belly, baby drops and I used some very foul language directing everybody to get their hands off of me. My doula drops to the floor. She just looks up and she is like, “Are you okay?” “I think so.” She was like, “Okay. Are we doing this here or are you going to the hospital? We need to go to hospital now.”

So she helps me out to the car, which, I am sure at 11:30p.m. was quite the sight for any of my neighbors because she is behind me but also cautiously ready to drop to the ground at any second. My husband is now panicked in the car honking the horn like, “We need to go!” So I get in the car– quickest ride I have ever had to our hospital. 

We pull into the labor and delivery ward, do the COVID screen and get in. I go in first, but my husband hast to stay back and wait. And so I go into the first section of the labor and delivery ward and my midwife does my check. She is kind of scolding me like, “You said you would be here in 30 minutes to under an hour and it has been an hour.” I am just calm, cool and collected like, “How many centimeters am I dilated?” I am prepped for an 8. She was like, “All right. So you’re 10 centimeters dilated. The next step is to break your water and push the baby out.” 

So she tells me to go to the end of the hall to labor and delivery room and she was like, “I’m going to go get your husband because it is go time.” We get into the room and everything stopped. My contractions were nonexistent. My energy was different. I no longer felt in the zone. I felt edgy and amped up a little bit. I was totally experiencing fight or flight. And so they were like, “Okay.” We get my doula on the iPad. She is FaceTimed in now. I am excited and nervous, but my body has now totally stopped.

That’s where the doubt starts to creep and like, “I don’t know if I can do this.” All of the literature about feeling not comfortable in your space and all of that, I am like, “I just don’t know. I am out of my labor zone.” So they break my water and I feel the pressure of the baby bearing down. I just keep asking, “So when do I start pushing?” I am like, “There are not really any contractions.” This is a very different feeling now. They were like, “Oh, you will feel it. On your next contraction, if you feel the urge to push, you can absolutely bear down.”

And so about an hour and a half into being at the hospital, I finally start having consistent contractions again. Because I am a VBAC, I have consistent fetal monitoring. The baby is not in distress and my heart rate is great, so we just carry on. My contractions now are existent but just noneffective. And so between every fourth contraction, my midwives and my doula were getting me into a different position to try to get this baby out. Within the first push they were like, “The baby is right there,” and I just wasn’t able to push.

I am pushing and my midwife is directing me, so now she is inside me pressing down like, “Push here.” She is like, “You are pushing really effectively,” and so it becomes a little bit of this puzzle. I am fully dilated. My waters are broken. I do have contractions and we are trying different positions, but this baby is just not coming.

And so it’s about two hours in. I am getting pretty tired because it’s the middle of the night and feeling super defeated. The same narrative of, “You can’t do this,” is echoed by a member of the care team. At this point, I am like, “Get this baby out of me.” Like, “We are going to need some medical intervention for this baby to arrive Earthside. I cannot do this anymore.”

Meagan: Aww yeah. Just total doubt.

Lindsay: Total doubt despite being very prepared and having such a strong voice. My husband was like, “Linds, you can do this. You have worked so hard for this.” He was like, “I can literally see the baby. You’ve got this. It’s okay. You can do this.” And then there was a student midwife and a very new midwife– I think she had graduated a year or six months prior– and they were incredibly encouraging. They were like, “Lindsay, we are working with you. You’ve got this, girl. You’ve got this.” Every contraction cheering me on, so the energy was so positive, but it was just like, the combination of myself and another provider that lacked confidence that really took the scheme out of the labor.

And so now it’s 4:00 in the morning, four hours into pushing and they say, “We are going to bring an OB consult.” I am pretty distraught at this point. I have no medication. I am really leaned in to like, “I am going to do this naturally one way or another.” My husband is advocating for me and such a big support system. I have two relatively junior midwives who are like, “You are doing this.” We decide despite all that that we are going to call in an OB consult. By chance, it was one of my most favorite OBGYNs on call that night. She was there to do another emergency C-section.

And so she walked in and we went over the chart. She was like, “Man.” She had done my consult for if I was a VBAC candidate, and so she was like, “Linds, you can do this.” She was like, “You are so close.” She said, “Here’s the thing. I have another emergency C-section. You are not in distress. Your baby is not in distress. You’re both doing well, so while I do this other C-section, your job is to lay on your side with the peanut ball, knees together for the 30-45 minutes it takes me to do my other C-section. I will come back and if you are not progressing and you are still struggling to push out this baby, then we will do a C-section.”

And so I felt at that point, “If it goes to a C-section, I am okay with that. I feel like I have really done everything in my power.” Pushing for that long was physically exhausting and not rewarding. So I’m like, “That’s cool. I’ll lay on my side on the peanut ball as uncomfortable as it is. I will bear down and it’s going to be what it’s going to be.”

And so she leaves the room. I am on my side and because my midwife had kept checking they were like, “The baby is not OP. It just keeps rotating from left to right.” It was my body. I just wasn’t working in the right position to have the baby tuck under my pubic bone and out.

When the OBGYN checked me she was like, “Absolutely. This baby just keeps rotating right to left,  and so we just need to get it in the best birthing position. Let’s have you lay on this side as a last ditch effort.” She walks out and comes back in 45 minutes later and she is like, “Oh my god. We’re about to have this baby. Like right now, we are about to have this baby.” She is in full scrubs and walks back out of the delivery room. At this point, I am like, “Where is she going? I need her in here.”

Meagan: You’re like, “Wait, I thought you said we were going to have this baby.”

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah.

Meagan: “And you leave?!”

Lindsay: Yeah. I’m like, “Am I doing this solo? What’s happening here?” My midwives laugh and they’re like, “No, no. She just has to release the OR team because everyone is on standby to see if they are doing a section on me.” And so she walks in 30 seconds later and after about four pushes, my sweet little baby girl was born.

Meagan: Aww. That is quite, I mean, gosh. That is quite the journey during the pushing stage. A lot of people would have totally been told like, “You have no option. You are going to a C-section,” after it had been just a couple of hours of pushing. They kept giving you more time and I just think it is awesome. I mean, it is really awesome that you guys had those providers in there to advocate for you.

Overcoming Doubt

But I wanted to talk a little bit about that doubt that you talked about was creeping in. It doesn’t always just creep in at the end. It can creep in during all periods of labor and even before labor begins. I think it’s awesome that you had your team there. I mean, your husband obviously is amazing and was like, “You have worked so hard for this. You can do this.” He built you up, but what’s a little piece of advice that you would give to our listeners? 

Because I think that is something that happens all the time. It happened for me. I mean, I think everyone who has heard my story– I think I shared it. I was throwing a fit in the driveway because my water broke and it triggered me. It was like, “No, it’s not going to happen.” I just had this total doubt. What would you say really, really helped you? Do you think it was your team? What did you do physically and mentally to just be like, “Okay, yes,” and snap back into it, water splashed back into your face?

Lindsay: It was a combination of having the toolbox and building my own toolbox. So doing the reading, and The VBAC Link was on every morning and every night. I consumed podcasts and good news stories like they were liquid gold. I read the books. If someone made a suggestion, I did it blindly, and so I felt like the toolbox of confidence and support was built and that was me. That wasn’t anyone else. That was me wanting to know, wanting to be educated, and wanting to feel empowered and confident going into labor. And then that married with building the team that I knew would support me so that when I had a question and labor, when something came up, I was able to not only go into my toolbox, but also to my support team and know that they had my back.

To your point, when that doubt creeped in it didn’t creep in on its own. There was an external voice in the room that supported that. It was the moment of my husband saying, “You can do this.” But I was like, “Yeah. He is right. I can do this.” And also, “I don’t have to listen to her.” I can listen to everyone else in the room that is validating me, supporting me, and believes in me. 

And so hat was my two-prong approach to building up my confidence and empowerment. If something doesn’t feel right, just continue to ask and lean into that until it feels like you’ve been heard and it feels like you understand what’s happening.

Meagan: Yes. I love that. Such great tips because it does. It really does happen and yeah. Like you said, it didn’t just happen. It was placed there, and then it got worse. So I love that so, so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I loved it. I am so proud of you and I’m so happy that you were able to have your doula there for a little while and all of that. These COVID births, man. They are all so interesting to hear how they went down. But we are so grateful that you had your team. Julie, is there anything you want to add or anything?

Julie: Nope. I think that sounds great. It’s a great story. I love all of the preparation that you did. I was kind of like that too with my first VBAC. I just did everything. Somebody told me about a resource, I sucked it all up. I went to all of the birthing groups. I soaked in of all of the stories, just all of it. I absolutely love that. I think it’s so important.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Lindsay: My close network of moms that had C-sections either hadn’t had a VBAC yet, weren’t interested in doing a VBAC, or had just gone straight to a repeat section. So I felt like my personal network was really limited in terms of the resources and questions that I could ask and lean on. And so I just turned on to an online community. So The VBAC Link Community being such a good example. If I don’t have someone to ask, where can I find that information from other real-life humans, not necessarily just a book right?

So yeah. So that’s kind of where I landed and it’s so funny because I left the hospital fairly quickly. So I gave birth at 6:13 and I was home by two. And so it was partially due to Covid and partially due to the natural delivery, like let’s get her back home and comfortable and that night, my Julie came over to check in and see how we were doing and meet our little baby and the first thing I said was, I can’t wait to do it again. Do you know? Our family isn’t complete yet and yeah, I can’t wait to do it again. And so July 31, we are doing it again.

Meagan: No! This year?

Lindsay: Yeah. This year.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. That’s so awesome.

Julie: Yay.

Meagan: Oh, congratulations. That is so awesome. So, so awesome.

Julie: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah. It’s a very similar approach, you know? I went in and went with the midwife team that supports me that I felt heard by and that I feel like the most comfortable with in our monthly appointments. I reached out to my doula right away and she typically doesn’t take summer clients, but I snuck in there which was awesome. And yeah. We are just doing everything again that we can. We have the confidence of success, of course, in our back pocket, but it is the same approach. Control what you can control.

Meagan: Mhmm. Yeah.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: Oh, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and we really, really do appreciate you.

Lindsay: Thank you.

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

“I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, ‘I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.’”

Though Heather’s two birth outcomes were very different, the most inspiring part is what Heather fought for within herself. Heather went from knowing she had a voice and being afraid to use it to knowing her voice and making sure it was heard. 

In the depths of depression and anxiety, Heather continued to be proactive and choose healing. Through vulnerability, therapy, patient advocacy, medication, and staying attentive to her needs, Heather’s second postpartum experience was drastically better than the first. 

Additional Links

Heather's Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, guys. This is Meagan, your host, and today we have our friend Heather. She is from Kentucky and she is sharing her amazing story. One of the highlights of her story that we’re going to be talking about is postpartum depression which is something I’m really excited to talk more about because postpartum in general and Heather, maybe you would agree, I feel like it’s even more sometimes in preparing for a VBAC because we’re so hyper-focused on the birth and having this vaginal birth and avoiding a Cesarean and all of the interventions. I mean, really. We’re just so hyper-focused that we forget what comes after. 

Not just recovery after, but mentally and physically. All of the things, and so I’m really excited that you are going to touch on this today and I already want to thank you for your knowledge because I’m excited to hear what you have to say. 

Review of the Week

Okay, I have a review of the week and then we’re going to go into it. Does that sound good? 

Heather: Great. 

Meagan: This is actually a review of The VBAC Link course. This is from Ashley and she says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is a certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them and this course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC.” I’m assuming Ashley is reviewing the doula course in this one. She says, “I cannot praise you two enough for the fear release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” 

Even starting right there talking about processing and fear release before going into birth can ultimately help us in our postpartum stages. 

Heather: Absolutely, yeah. That’s a big part of, I think, what I was working through in my second pregnancy. 

Heather’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, well then let’s turn the time over to you. 

Heather: Well thank you so much. I’m really humbled to be here today. I’ve heard so many amazing stories and I wasn’t sure that mine was really amazing enough, but I really just feel so strongly that talking about postpartum depression is important even now, even five years out of recovering still that I just really want to be there to help others who need that light. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Heather: All right, so I got pregnant with Theo in 2017. We made the decision in March and literally the weekend I had my birth control out, we looked at each other, and bam. We were pregnant. 

Meagan: Oh no way. 

Heather: So I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. I’m terrified.” I had no chance to really start processing this. I was still weaning down from my depression medication. I had been in treatment for depression a few years prior. I had been out of it but still on medication. I was feeling good. I was feel pretty stable. I thought going off of my medication was going to be great. 

So we find ourselves pregnant and oh man, that pregnancy was hard. I was sick. I was exhausted. I’m a performing musician and teacher of music, so I was getting through my days with little kids and getting to gigs and driving and throwing up in the car on the highway. 

Meagan: Oh, bless your heart. 

Heather: I’m still processing this whole, “Wow. Our lives are going to change.” I was really excited too, obviously. I was really happy to be starting this but we were really apprehensive heading into that. I was due Christmas Day that year, so starting in November, we started getting serious about birth prep. We did a very comprehensive birth course. I was seeing midwives for my care during that pregnancy and I thought they were just really great. They had the same view I did. I was really happy with the care I was receiving. It was very encouraging and just like, “Whatever it is that you want, we will get this for you.” 

The hospital I was going to deliver in had nitrous. It had one room with a tub. It had showers in every room. It had obviously the epidural and the IV meds. I felt good about the options, although something inside of me really wanted a more natural kind of experience. I think looking back, I really did want a home birth, but I was scared and it’s expensive, so this is the direction that we went in. 

Our birth prep, like I said, was very comprehensive and on top of that, I was reading books. I was making sure that I was informed in case of a Cesarean. I knew about the cascade of interventions and coping with contractions and stuff. 

We got to the end of that video class and oh my gosh. So they do this, “Congratulations. You’re going to have a baby.” I was just like, “Oh my god.” I was terrified. To be perfectly honest, my husband wasn’t much better. It was about another four weeks before I actually went into labor since that moment and it was an exciting time. I got through 39 weeks at work and then I stepped back because as an organist, I wasn’t going to be playing the day before my due date. 

My due date came and went and he didn’t come. I was very thankful for that because as an organist, I did not want to have a baby on Christmas Eve. Christmas Day would have been preferable frankly. 

Meagan: I was going say, did you guys have performances at all? So you took a step back but did you have Christmas stuff at all? 

Heather: I had backed off by the week before Christmas. 

Meagan: Oh that’s so nice. So you completely stopped. 

Heather: Yes. So 39 weeks on, I was on maternity leave. I had some Braxton Hicks, nothing really, not moving too much. I got to 40 weeks. My mom came. 40+1, we go for a walk. 40+2 I think is when I had my next appointment with my midwife who was one of the two midwives I had seen in the office and she was the one who actually was still doing hospital deliveries so we were like, “Okay, let’s get in to see her a few more times in case I possibly see her,” which I did. 

We decided to do a stretch and sweep. It kind of went. It was possible. I was pretty high and closed and stuff, but I think the sweep worked. I didn’t really experience much from that. My mom was like, “Well, I’m going to go see my sister in the other state,” so we had some space again which was really nice to have. 

Thursday that week, I go to my massage guys who are also acupuncturists and I was like, “Get this baby out of me.” They were wonderful people. They are not prenatal or anything. One of them is from India and he was like, “So your baby is a little bit over here and is not pushing on your cervix.” He just lightly touched my belly and it was so gentle. Then I had some acupuncture and they left me to chill. 

Then Friday comes the next day and that evening, I just had a sense. I was like, “Hmm.” I don’t know. I was just feeling this. So that night, I went to bed on the couch downstairs. My husband was upstairs. I woke up around 3:00 or 4:00 AM and I’m like, “Yeah. I’m having contractions.” I was like, “Okay, early labor. I’ve got to rest.” So I went and crawled into bed with my husband and that was just a no-go. It was too painful. 

I pretty quickly got out of there. Mostly, I would labor bending over, leaning over something. We did lots of different places. I was at home for a good 7-8 hours probably. I was feeling pretty good in early labor there. I just had some food, keeping it light. My husband was packing his bag because of course, he hadn’t packed ahead of time. 

I guess contractions probably started around 4ish. I took a bath. I know you’re not supposed to slow them down, but I was like, “I need to rest.” 

Meagan: This is the thing with taking a bath. I don’t want to say full-blown labor like you’re not in labor at all, but if it’s going to progress, it’s going to progress and water’s not going to stop it. If your body responds by slowing down and taking a break, that’s probably what it needed. 

Heather: Yeah. It still continued. He would put Netlifx shows on for me. He’d put stuff on for me. I’d be breathing through the contractions. After the bath, I guess shower, then bath. I don’t really know. I started having to moan through contractions and they started, “Okay. I’m doing my low breathing. I’m feeling good.” I was feeling like, “Okay. I’ve been prepared so far.”

Around 11:30-noonish, things started changing and I started getting antsy and anxious. Contractions started coming much closer together. It was probably about three minutes apart. They’d been a minute long for hours at that point, so we knew that we were really in labor. I was definitely starting to get that worry, that anxiety going then. It was like, “We’re not at the hospital.” We weren’t far from the hospital, but I was like, “We need to get there.” 

I remember I was using the bathroom and laying down was a no-go. The toilet was absolutely excruciating. It was really intense when I hit a contraction. My dear, sweet husband comes and jokingly brings me something to put on that was lacey underwear or something like that. I was like, “You just do this. We need to go.” I was not having any of it at that point.

So it was like, “Okay. We’re definitely ready to go.” We got in the car probably at about 12:30 and we head to the hospital. Man, the car ride contractions were not fun. I’m going, “Ohhh.” I start going, “We’re going to have a baby.” 

Meagan: All the emotions. 

Heather: All the emotions. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, I was starting to become a little unhinged there. I had gotten out of my safe, comfortable, “I’m in a space. I’m in a zone.” Looking back on it, I realize now that I was starting to experience back labor. That was still a whole extra level of, “Oh my god. I’m not prepared. This is really intense.”

We got there. I insisted on walking the whole way. 

Meagan: Probably good for you though. 

Heather: That’s what I was thinking. I was like, “I don’t want to have interventions. I want to get there as late as possible so I’m going to walk.” Every 30 feet, we were stopping to moan through things. We go to where we think triage check-in is and it’s moved because they were doing work. So we were standing there and my husband’s calling the midwives to come from across the hall. It was ridiculous, but the midwife was like, “Let’s get you a chair.” I didn’t really want it, but they could tell that I was in labor. 

I get to triage and they check me and I was 5 centimeters. I was so excited. I was a first-time mom. I’m halfway there. This is awesome. I’m freaking out though. So I’m freaking out and I’m there and okay. It’s time to admit me. I knew my preferences. I knew in my heart what I wanted and I didn’t ask for that. 

Meagan: You can’t say it probably right? 

Heather: Yeah. I thought, “I want a water birth. I want to ask for the tub room, but what if I don’t end up doing a water birth and I’m occupying it and I’m taking it from somebody else?” All these I would say people pleaser things came in. I was like, “You know, I want to get in the shower. I want to labor back in the shower,” but I was starting to shake. I was getting scared. I was getting more and more scared and just feeling out of control. 

So I was just like, “I’m progressed enough. I want an epidural,” even though I knew I didn’t really want an epidural. I was having this back labor. I had been laboring for a long time. I was 40+5 and I was tired. You’re not sleeping well by that point. 

The midwife was great. She was supporting me. She was applying back pressure and a lot of tailbone pressure, especially with the back labor and it was really helpful, but I eventually got the epidural. The first one didn’t take. They did another one immediately and that one only half worked. They put me on my left side because I could feel my contractions all the way down my left thigh. It was really, really intense. The medicine worked that way. I guess we got some sleep. A few hours later, they come to move me to my right side. A few hours later, they move me so I’m sitting with my legs and knees out. That was all they moved me. 

I couldn’t really move. Over the course of having to move, the epidural definitely started wearing off on my left side again. Then shift change happens around 8:00 PM and the midwife that I had been seeing comes on. I was so happy. I was so happy to have her because she was wonderful. She comes in and the room is dark. She checks me and I’m complete. Well, I’m almost complete. She’s like, “there’s a bulging bag of water. We could break them and start pushing or hold off on pushing. What do you want to do?” 

That voice inside again says, “I want to labor down. I want to have some time to really feel the urge to push,” but baby was having some heart irregularities, so I was like, “Well, then let’s go ahead and break my waters. We’ll start pushing.” Even though in my mind, that really wasn’t what I wanted. 

Meagan: Your intuition it seemed like so far has been saying one thing, but then your voice said something else. Your mind talks you into something else. 

Heather: Absolutely. I think that’s really the motif throughout that whole labor. My intuition was in one way and what I was agreeing to and saying I was okay with was another. My midwife was very great. She wasn’t pushy, but having a baby who has nonreassuring heart tones, not dangerous yet was like, “Okay. I’ve got to consider this as well.” So on one hand, I wasn’t thrilled to be accepting breaking my waters, but I wanted to know that he was in a good position. I didn’t know it was a he, but I wanted to know that baby was in a good position, but the labor nurses were like, “Oh yeah. Baby’s ready. Baby’s ready.” 

Meagan: And you don’t really know about back pain at this point. You kind of maybe do because it’s half working, but you’re not feeling it the way you were feeling it so you couldn’t even really identify where he was at. 

Heather: Yeah, exactly. I’m a first-time mom. 

Meagan: You don’t know what you don’t know. 

Heather: No, you don’t. We start pushing and they were pretty good about letting me push on my sides and on my back. They would turn me to my left side and I would push. They would turn me to my right side. I would push. I did a lot of pushing on my back which was probably where the more effective pushing was happening. 

At this point, my temperature has been climbing so that was one of the reasons why my midwife wanted to break my waters was because my temperature had climbed a bit. She said, “Sometimes with an epidural, that can happen but if it keeps going and it becomes a fever then we know that it’s not the epidural and it’s an infection.” I’m thinking, “Okay, then we’ve got to get this baby out.” 

I’m pushing and an hour goes by. My husband is watching me get sicker and sicker. My temperature finally breaks into a fever around 9:30-9:45 PM. By this point, I definitely have a fever. Baby’s heart is not tolerating it well and I’ve not made much progress in pushing. So my midwife starts consulting with the obstetrician who is overseeing her who comes in and she says, “We need to get this baby out. Our options are C-section and vacuum.” 

I’m like, “Well, I definitely don’t want a C-section.” So she goes off to get ready for the vacuum. Now, she doesn’t feel that she can do the vacuum because I guess she had an injury or something so she goes and gets the other obstetrician that night to go and do the vacuum. So they’re back ten minutes later. I’m still pushing. I’m still feeling it. My epidural has worn off even more by this point so I’m really feeling the contractions and feeling them build. I’m working with them. I’m feeling like that was a good experience. I appreciated having that knowledge especially when into my second birth. 

I didn’t really know much about a vacuum. I figured, “Oh, it might be assisting in pushing. I’d push a bit.” They’d assist the baby out over a period of time is what I was expecting. After a couple of pushes with the vacuum, the obstetrician who had come on, not the one who was doing the vacuum but the other one, says, “I’d like to do an episiotomy. Is that okay?” I said, “No. I do not want an episiotomy.” We push again. 

The next contraction after that, she’s like, “Okay. I need to do an episiotomy. You’re going to tear anyway.” I talked to my husband and I was like, “Okay, fine.” 

Meagan: Oh, love. I love you and you’re not alone where you’re like, “Fine. I just want this baby out.” 

Heather: Yeah. I didn’t really understand that that was coercion at the time. 

Meagan: Yeah, because you are vulnerable. 

Heather: So vulnerable. I was sick. I had a fever. 

Meagan: I was going to say that you didn’t feel well probably. 

Heather: No, my husband was seeing me get sicker and sicker like I said. By this point, it’s probably about 10:00 PM. I’ve been pushing for over two hours. I have a fever. I just consented to something that I really didn’t want going into it. The next contraction comes and I’m feeling all of this movement down there. I’m thinking, “Oh my god. He’s out.” They’re like, “Vacuum just popped off for the third time and we can’t do it anymore.” I’m like, “What?!”

Meagan: At this point, they had done the episiotomy. 

Heather: Yeah. They hadn’t told me that it had popped off at all. I didn’t know where we were in that process. 

Meagan: There was no communication. 

Heather: There was not that communication. It was just, “You’re going to tear anyway.” A certainty. “You’re going to have this baby vaginally and you’re going to tear so you need an episiotomy.”

Meagan: So you made the decision with the understanding that this baby was then going to come. 

Heather: By that point, we really had no choices. I was pretty sick. I could feel the contractions. I wanted baby out. 

Meagan: Yeah. You just want it to be over. 

Heather: My midwife was there the whole time. She helped coordinate getting my husband to the OR. They turned up my medicine. They wheeled me down. She brings him in after they’ve determined that I’m numb enough which I almost wasn’t. This is the OB who cut me and that’s who she is. When I talk in conversation about my birth, that’s where my mind goes and that’s really what was like, “Wow. That was obstetric violence. She cut me.” 

I just can’t process it any other way. She almost put me under because they had to numb me and she thought it was an emergency. In my mind, I’m hearing her say to the anesthesiologist, “If the next time, she’s not numbed, we’re going to have to put her under.” My mind is going, “No. Don’t let me. Tell them no. Tell them you do not consent to go under.” Fortunately, they didn’t put me under, but the medicine was high. My husband was there next to me and my midwife was there as a support person. They performed the C-section and my midwife was like, “Do you hear that baby crying? That’s your baby.” That was beautiful. It really was. 

We didn’t know the sex, so she brought my husband over to the warmer where he was and he came back. He whispered in my ears, “You have a son,” which was a really beautiful moment too. They bring Theo over and I get to kiss him a little bit. I can’t really hold him. I want to ask if I can hold him, but I don’t. But I also just needed to sleep at that point. He was born at 10:38 PM and I had been going since 4:00 AM so I was exhausted. 

They take him away. Apparently, he was having some breathing issues so I sent my husband with him. They went to the nursery together. I want to back up and say though that while we were having this C-section discussion, the one thing I asked for was delayed cord clamping. That was the one thing and the OB said no. In my mind, I’m thinking, “Can I ask for a clear drape? You want a clear drape. Ask for this.” I knew the things that I could ask for. I didn’t though. I had already just said no to an episiotomy. I just had one anyway. I had just been told no to delayed cord clamping. I think I was just almost out of fight. 

Meagan: Well, yeah. Like I was saying earlier, it’s to the point where sometimes in labor, we want to use our voice but we can’t. We’re using it in our heads, but we can’t get it out. It’s just this weird thing. I could probably see you too just being like, “I give up. Everything I did want, I’m being told no, or the opposite has happened to me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was something I really had to process through. Where was that voice? Where was I? Where were we working together and where were we not working together my voice and me? But he goes to the nursery and because I had developed an infection, they wanted to get him an IV and antibiotics as well. He was there for a long time. I was alone in recovery. At that point, I was like, “I just want to sleep.” At one point, my midwife and the obstetrician came in to have a talk afterward. What I remember from that talk was basically like, “You have a small pelvis. You have an incision where you could have a VBAC, but I think your pelvis is too small.” I was just like, “That sounds ridiculous.”

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “I know better. I know better.”

Heather: I knew better. I knew better. I knew that was ridiculous. Even in recovery, I felt like I timed out because of the fever more than anything and I timed out also because I didn’t have a lot of movement going on. There was no continual positioning during labor. I had been born via C-section. I was OP. That had been in the back of my mind in preparation. I was like, “I’m going to help this baby get into good positions.” I knew the positions to help me. I knew these things and I still ended up with a C-section. 

The hospital stay, unfortunately, was not better. I finally met him and got to hold him at about 3:00 or 5:00 AM. I’m not sure. It was a really long separation and that was a really hard separation to come to terms with. When he finally came into the room with my husband, we tried breastfeeding and it didn’t really work. He didn’t latch and then we just went to sleep. The lactation consultants came around the next morning. They were fantastic. We started getting a latch. We diagnosed him with tongue and lip ties. We got those revised and then breastfeeding was off to a much better continuation. 

The next day, so I went into labor and had him on a Saturday. Sunday was New Year’s Eve so we got to look out over the city and see the fireworks. Monday, I had this rash all over my body. We were like, “What is this?” It was particularly around my incision and my belly, but it seemed to be everywhere. We were like, “What is this?” It didn’t seem like PUPPPS. It wasn’t just in stretch marks. It was like, “Maybe it’s the antibiotics.” 

Meagan: The sutures?

Heather: “Maybe it’s something you’re wearing. Maybe it’s the sutures. We don’t know.” I had part of my thyroid removed a year prior and I actually had an allergic reaction to the surgical prep. I was like, “Maybe it was the surgical prep.” It wasn’t. We don’t know what it was but they gave me Benadryl. I was like, “Great.” It made me tired. My baby was constantly trying to breastfeed. I was also on medicine for the infection and pain which was just horrendous. That pain was worse than back labor for me. That was almost the most traumatic was trying to walk the day after. It got better quickly for me. I was very fortunate, but it was really scary getting out of bed the first few times. Like really scary, I was in so much pain. 

So yeah. The Benadryl didn’t really help. The next day, I asked for more because I was still itching and the nurse was like, “It can make your milk dry up.” I was like, “What? I’m not doing that.” We got home eventually and it was just really hard. He very much wanted to be held all of the time. We weren’t sleeping. I felt like breastfeeding wasn’t going super well. We got to my two-week appointment and I saw my midwife who had been there in the birth and I mean, she was wonderfully empathetic. She was just like, “How are you?” I was like, “I am not well. This is not going well. This has been really hard. He’s not gained weight.” 

She asked me what did we want to do about it? I was really lucky in that the practice and the hospital in general had a licensed clinical social worker attached to it, so I could go to the same place and see this therapist. She was a specialist in postpartum and prenatal counseling and just maternal and child psychology. At two weeks, I was like, “Okay. I want to talk to her.” I went to that probably a week later and I just cried for an hour. I just cried. I talked about the C-section and the episiotomy and about how I was pumping at that point but he wasn’t gaining weight and how this was hard. 

She just listened the whole time. I was like, “Wow. I just cried for an hour.” She was like, “Is that a good thing or a bad thing?” I was like, “I think it is a good thing. I needed this.” 

Meagan: Sometimes you need those releases. 

Heather: Yeah, the release was really important. I was seeing a lactation consultant. I was triple feeding so I was feeding, pumping, and supplementing. We get to, I guess, his one-month appointment and he’s passed birth weight. He’s doing well. I went back to the lactation consultant who was like, “Keep triple feeding.” I was like, “I can’t do this,” so I just started to listen to my intuition on that. By that point, yeah. He was gaining weight well. 

A few weeks later, I go for my six-week appointment and I still was not myself. At that point, I decided to go back on medication. We found something that was breastfeeding-compatible and I felt comfortable doing that. I knew that I needed to take care of myself and that antidepressants were definitely going to be the next step. I would say after I got on antidepressants, I stabilized for a while. There were a good few months there where I was continuing with therapy. We were dealing with a lot of, “Okay. I still have a newborn. I’m still exhausted. I’m adjusting to motherhood,” but just other things in life were coming up. Like I said, I felt like my mood was pretty stable. 

At about six months postpartum, somebody in my close circle had a pretty decent vaginal birth and I was really happy for her, but oh my gosh. I just fell apart. I dove right back down into depression. I showed up at therapy the next week and I was just like, “I’m so happy for her,” and was just crying. Again, I don’t know where this is coming from. That’s when we started the next step in processing the trauma. 

Since my therapist was attached to the hospital system, and since she had the specializations that she did, we were able to go through all of my labor notes. For those appointments, I asked my husband to be there for me as well, so we went together. We went through those over the course of a few sessions. We really dug into some of that. I remember going through the notes around the fever and pushing and I was like, “Yeah. I really did need that C-section.” That definitely helped me take another step forward, but at that time also, my therapist was like, “Just so you know, there are other avenues for discussing this.” 

That’s when she told me about the patient advocate at the hospital. I didn’t know about patient advocates, but my therapist was like, “She’s really great. She’s not just there to prevent lawsuits or malpractice suits. She will be there. She’ll be emotionally there for you. You call her and she’ll set up a meeting with the doctors and head of obstetrics and neonatology if you want.” So that was something that I decided that I wanted to do. It took me a few weeks definitely because it’s still something very close to my heart. It was still very hard. It was just hard to make the call. 

I think just making space for ourselves when we find ourselves in a place where there’s another step forward, but it’s still hard. It’s just so important. 

Meagan: It’s hard to make those steps. 

Heather: It is. You can feel like you know it’s what you want to do and you can still give yourself the time until it’s really right. But I made the call and in September we had the meeting. It turns out that the doctor who had cut me was no longer at the hospital. 

Meagan: Oh uh-uh. 

Heather: It may have been because of her attitude. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I did meet with the head of obstetrics who was actually performing the vacuum and assisting in the C-section. That meeting, I went into it and I wanted to ask about the fever. I wanted to ask about the infection like, “How does this happen? Did I do anything? Should I not have taken a bath that morning?” The doctor was like, “These things happen and you can’t control them and all we can do is make the best choices that we can make.” And then I brought up with her the episiotomy and I said, “That was not okay. I should not have been pressured into that. This hospital needs to know and the doctors need to know that all around, this was not okay and this should not have happened.”

She said that they have trainings and there’s one coming up and that she was going to use this scenario in the trainings. That was really powerful for me to hear that they were going to talk about it in whatever way they did. It was really important for me to speak out and say, “This was not okay. This happened. It should not have happened that way,” but then also to have the doctor hear me and agree with me really did help. 

The meeting was also interesting. She said, “We would be happy to do pre-pregnancy counseling. We could do a VBAC calculator.” I didn’t know about that and was like, “Okay.” I also said, “I think this hospital should have more access to clear drapes, and women in my position should be offered these things, not just expected after all of what we’ve been through to ask for these things. This seems like a basic thing that we can do to be more mother-baby centric.”

Meagan: It’s minuscule to make such a big impact. It’s a minuscule thing that changes someone’s experience so much and I love that you brought that up. I love that. 

Heather: Yeah, so this was back in 2018. I brought that up. I was like, “This could have been and I think this would have helped.” Neonatology was not at that meeting. They were unable to be there, but the head of neonatology did give me a call a few weeks later and she was lovely to talk to. She said, “I was reviewing your notes.” The obstetrician in the patient advocate meeting had not reviewed my notes. I had really hoped that she would have. But neonatology and I went over the notes for Theo and it turns out that he was in more distress than I had believed at birth. 

I also think that I just was like, “My baby is going to be fine.” Babies have trouble breathing sometimes. That’s why we have an umbilical cord. That’s why I wanted delayed cord clamping for a little bit of a buffer. But the care that he received was important. She just reaffirmed that getting the mom and baby together is really important from the get-go for us. We do value that and you are right to bring that to our attention, but we will continue this value. 

I got a lot of closure from all of those meetings. I definitely understood all of the medical things that had gone on better. It didn’t solve my depression. I’m still in therapy to this day, but it really helped turn the page. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Heather: So fast forward to about a year ago, December 2021. I had even written that in my notes. I can’t do the math. 

Meagan: The years are blowing by so fast. 

Heather: It’s going by so fast and my daughter is in a sleep regression. It’s just great. We were starting to finally feel like we had our feet underneath us. We moved states. We got settled in another place near my parents which has been great and we were like, “Okay. We want to grow our family.” So that December, we decided to start trying, and two weeks later–

Meagan: Did you look at each other? Yep.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Two weeks later. From my last menstrual period, I was three weeks pregnant and I was like, “How am I getting a pregnancy test positive already?” I was terrified. I was like, “What is up with us? We are never taking risks. This is just too freaky.” Yeah. We got pregnant right away. So right away, I’m like, “Oh. But I have all of this trauma that is resurfacing.” 

My son was born at the end of December which means that the really hard postpartum was right during my first trimester which was hard again. I was very sick. I was resting a lot but it was also a different feel because we were so much better as a team this time. We were so much more open about how we were feeling. We were more excited. We knew that we knew more this time. But it was still an adjustment getting used to being pregnant again. 

I definitely had some anxiety and I don’t usually have much anxiety. Going into my first provider appointment, I was so scared. I really was not looking forward to being in prenatal care again because of my experiences before. So because we got pregnant so fast, I didn’t know exactly where I wanted to go, but I knew I wanted midwives again because I just did not feel safe with obstetricians. I went with what ended up being a community clinic for anybody. Anybody can go and it’s price-capped, etc. It’s a rotating group of people who provide the care. 

It just so happened that the first time I went there, I met with one of the midwives so I thought, “Okay. I’ll be seeing midwives.” I didn’t really know how they assigned people. The midwives were good. From the first appointment, she asked me what I wanted to do for birth and I said that I wanted a VBAC. My second appointment a month later, I was like, “But I have really bad tailbone pain, so maybe I do want a repeat Cesarean.” A few months later, I was like, “Nope. I definitely want a VBAC.”

I started preparing for it. I did some more courses online learning more about VBAC. That’s when I got introduced to the Facebook community, The VBAC Link Facebook Community which was really great. I started really digging into that towards the end of my second trimester. I will say, unlike my first pregnancy, my second trimester was lovely. I really had a good time. I was taking medication for nausea which never went away again, but because I had it managed, I was able to enjoy and move a lot more this time. I did a lot of pregnancy yoga and pilates. That was really lovely. It really helped me feel more in charge and in control of that aspect at least. 

Towards the end of my second trimester, I was like, “Jake, I really don’t want an epidural. I really think that is the whole reason why I had the fever in the first place. What I’m learning now is that epidurals can cause fevers.” What everybody told me back in 2017 was that no, no, no, no. Epidurals don’t cause fevers. They might elevate your temperature, but I really don’t believe that at this point. I really think it was because of the fever. I knew that my epidural had not been great. I didn’t want it. I had back labor. I was like, “We need more support.” 

We got a doula and she was amazing. I had her by the end of my second trimester going into my third trimester. At the beginning of my third trimester, I went to a prenatal appointment on the regular day that I had been going and this new provider walked in. She said, “So you’re going to have a repeat C-section?” I’m like, “No.” She’s like, “Okay, well I mean, I have one priority, really two priorities and that’s a healthy baby and healthy mom.” I’m like, “Okay, but I signed the trial of labor consent last time.” She’s like, “Okay, well as long as you signed it.” 

It was a horrible discussion. I kept trying to be like, “No. I don’t want to talk about that. I’ve done my research. I’m good.” 

Meagan: Well and just what she had said there was pretty much saying, “Well, this is my priority and that’s the way to get it.” It was that. 

Heather: It was horrible. She didn’t go over my charts. She didn’t go over my gestational diabetes screening which I didn’t have, fortunately. She didn’t go over my TSH levels. She didn’t go over anything. She had a hard time finding the baby’s heartbeat. I was just like, “Man. Who is this person?” So I went home totally shook. I was not okay. This is not a good provider. I am being bait-and-switched. I called every office in town. I called every office two hours away. Nobody could take me by that point. I was bawling and I was just talking to my doula and I was just like, “I feel like I should drive two hours and show up in labor.” 

We examined all of the options. Because I hadn’t found anybody by the time of my next appointment, I went to my next appointment and my blood pressure was through the roof. It was 150/90 something and I was always fine. This midwife comes in and she’s like, “I was looking at your notes. That other provider does not do births. She can’t see. She is not indicative of this practice, Heather.” Right off the bat, this midwife was like, “I can see from your blood pressure readings and from what happened last time that this was not okay.”

I think I just started crying. I brought my husband that time because I was like, “I’m not going in alone.” So we went. We had a 45-minute to hour-long meeting with her. She was just amazing. She really got me back on track. She was like, “Okay. So here’s what we’re going to do. At 36 weeks, you’re going to start the evening primrose oil. You’re going to start doing this. You’re going to stretch that. We’re going to do stretch and sweeps if you want. If you don’t want them, that’s okay. If we have to induce, this is what I envision.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh. They’ll even induce.” You don’t know all of these things and her overall approach was like, “Okay. I’m feeling so much better about this.” 

So for the remainder of my pregnancy, I pretty much only went in on days when I knew that the other provider would not be there. I started seeing these other two midwives mostly whereas I had seen a third midwife on Wednesdays so I knew a few of the providers. I was like, “Okay.” As we were getting closer and closer, I’m checking back in with my doula and I’m like, “This hospital doesn’t have the things that I want. There are only two shower rooms. There are no tubs. There is no nitrous. It’s just two medication options, but I don’t feel like I can drive. I don’t want to be laboring in the car. I want to stay home as long as possible.” But I definitely was starting to feel more comfortable with that decision. 

Knowing that my husband and I had done the self-work since our first birth, knowing that we had all of this time to really talk through things, knowing that we had a doula, we just felt so much better prepared to advocate and face this. This time around, I did a hospital birth course which included a tour of labor and delivery. I was not prepared for how anxious I got in the labor room. I really was back in that place. 

Meagan: Triggered, yeah. It triggered you. 

Heather: I’m heading to the hospital. I’m having a baby. There are going to be interventions. It’s not what I want. But we got through it and I just had to take it by faith that I was going to be okay and I was going to be able to stand up for myself. 

Fast forwarding a little bit, we get to 34, 35, and 36 weeks and I’m just having tons of Braxton Hicks contractions. My job is keeping me on my feet a fair bit teaching little kids music, so I’m wiggling around and every time I’m moving, I’m feeling tightening. I’m like, “Wow. I’m getting ready. This is so amazing.” I was feeling very positive about that. By 35-36 weeks, every night from 10:00 PM on, it was like baby dance and squish hour. So I’m having those tightening Braxton Hicks. Sometimes they were timeable. They were pretty regular. They were not stopping, but I wouldn’t call them painful. 

I was on the link, “What is this? Okay. It’s probably prodromal labor.” So I was having that quite a bit. I started at 36 weeks. I started, “Okay. I’m going to do the evening primrose oil,” and boy did that make my uterus angry every time I would do it. I’m like, “I don’t know if the midwife really intended this. Maybe I shouldn’t do it.” 

I go to my 36-week appointment. I go to my 37-week appointment and I’m like, “Yeah. This is crazy.” I didn’t have any checks by that point. I did have a check, I guess, at 35 weeks when we did the GBS positive swab and I did come back positive. I was so upset. I was like, “Man, I really should have just declined that,” because I wasn’t going to change what I was going to do for labor anyway. I had one of the nice midwives check me at that point. She said, “You’re soft but you’re still pretty high and baby is right there. She moved when I poked her.” I thought that was pretty funny. I’m not sure if my son had ever gotten down that low, honestly. 

At 38 weeks, we go for a walk. I stopped working. I just had so many contractions. I had been bringing my husband to work with me because I work an hour away. I was like, “I’m not going to drive if I’m contracting. It could literally be any time.” But we had the appointment and the midwife was like, “So Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the midwives that are really on board with your birth plan. They’re the ones that you really want to see.” I was like, “Awesome.” 

So Monday night, I’m 38+3 and I do my prenatal yoga, pilates, and birth ball bouncing. It’s probably 10ish, 10:00 PM. My husband is like, “Let’s get this baby out of you.” He’s bouncing me on the ball. We’re just being lighthearted and silly and just like, “Okay, whatever.” But that night, I woke up at 3:00 AM which was not unusual having contractions which were not unusual. I get up to pee which is very usual as we all know. At that point in pregnancy, I just could not sleep and my water broke. 

I went to the bathroom and then I’m still leaking and it was dark. I’m like, “What’s going on?” I sit back down on the toilet. I get some light and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. There’s vernix in it. This is really my water.” I was so excited. I wasn’t really feeling any contractions and I was like, “Of course,” because I’m GBS positive, my water breaks prematurely. 

Meagan: Your water breaks first. 

Heather: I was so mad but I was like, “I’m not going yet. This could still be a day or more,” but I started calling my doula and let my husband sleep a little bit longer. I go into the room finally probably at almost 4:00 and I’m like, “My water broke.” He was dead asleep but his face lit up and he was so excited. That’s one of those really sweet memories from labor for me was just seeing his face get so excited like, “We’re having a baby! We’re having a baby!”

Another hour and a half goes by. I canceled all of the things that I had to do that day. My parents come to get my son and I had a very tearful goodbye because by this point, I was definitely in labor and I was emotional. I was like, “My baby.” So my parents show up for my son and I’m in the shower. I’m groaning, moaning through things and I’m definitely having back labor. My doula isn’t there yet, but we still have a lot of time. Contractions were fairly close by that point, probably 3-4 minutes apart for a solid minute, really, really strong ones. 

Meagan: Which is common with back labor and posterior babies where it’s really, really close. That’s really common. 

Heather: Yeah, I was like, “The shower is great, but you know what would be even better? A bath.” So I drew a bath and I’m emotional. My son is gone and I’m crying to my husband. He’s like, “You’re going to see him again.” But I’m like, “But he’s not going to be my only baby.” The doula shows up and she’s like, “Now, is your bath too warm?” I glared at her. I was like, “No. I was a good girl. I didn’t make it too warm.” All I wanted was to be in the sauna. 

But I get out. I was like, “Okay. It is time to go to the hospital. I’m facing that reality. I’m going to have to go to the hospital now.” So I used the bathroom and I’m on the toilet. Oh man, once again it was just so painful being on the toilet. I start feeling my body push. I’m like, “Okay. We need to go.” 

So we were packed up. I put on a robe and underwear and nothing else. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Heather: We show up in August to the hospital in the south and I’m in my not regular robe, like a fuzzy robe. 

Meagan: Like fuzzy warm? 

Heather: Yeah, yeah. That’s what I wanted. I was beyond rational thought at that point. My husband parks right in front of the doors. It’s totally fine. We’re in a small enough town. It’s great. He gets the wheelchair and wheels me up. People are clearing the elevator for me and I’m like, “Uhhhhhhh.” We only had a ten-minute ride to the hospital, but I had at least five contractions so I was in full-blown transition at that point. I’m horse-lipping it. I’m doing whatever I can to not push. 

We get up to the room. We skip triage. We go right into the room and they’re pretty calm. My birth plan never made it over there, so they don’t know who I am really. I’m like, “That’s great. I’m happy with that because I’m a VBAC person and I don’t want the monitoring. I don’t want to be in your constrictions, rules, whatever.” It took them a long time actually to figure out I was a VBAC person. They’re kind of intermittently monitoring me but I’m moving around. I’m fully naked at this point. I had no modesty. I did not care. 

Oh, I had a TENS unit and I had a comb. 

Meagan: Combs are amazing. 

Heather: They really are. I’m leaning against the back of the hospital bed and I’m screaming through them. I got checked and I was like, “Can I have medicine?” They were like, “Uh, it’s too late for that. You’re at a 9.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I started labor maybe around 3:30 or so and I’m at the hospital by 8:30. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Heather: So I’m at a 9. I had my TENS unit turned way up. I’m screaming for things. As my husband, I want to say this. As my husband was wheeling me into the room, I was like, “I’m going to ask for an epidural. I want the epidural.” He was like, “No, you don’t. No, you don’t.” That moment was so important because at that exact moment, I forgave myself for that first epidural. I don’t think I could have in any other situation. I really was like, “No. I did what I had to that first birth. I understand again why I did it. This is no joke.” Just that thankfulness and that gratitude for that started. 

One of the nice midwives was on call so she comes in and she checks me. Even though I’m a 9, my cervix is moving out of the way, so she was like, “You have the green light to push.” So I’m pushing and I probably got ten minutes into pushing and I was like, “This isn’t working. I want a C-section. I want to be awake for my baby’s birth. I don’t want her to get stuck.” The midwife was like, “This was your choice. We have not been doing this for long enough. Okay. We are not there yet.” 

Everybody like my doula is in the back saying, “No, Heather. You’re doing great. You’re fine.” My husband is like, “No. We’re not doing that.” I was like, “Okay. Okay, no. I know how to push. I remember this. I can do this.” So I was pushing. I started off pushing holding the back of the hospital bed. I pushed on my hands and knees. I wasn’t feeling like it was super effective at that point. I really wanted to try the squat bar. They didn’t really know where it was. They had to figure out where it was. I guess they don’t use it a lot, but I was like, “No. We’re doing this.” 

I pushed squatting for a while. That was pretty good, but we were like, “Okay. Let’s find a position where I can rest in between contractions too.” I tried on my left side for a while and then I turned to my right side for a while. One of the pushes on my right side, I felt a shift and I was like, “Oh. Now we’re in business.” I could tell. She had moved farther along. 

I actually ended up pushing on my back for a little while. That felt good too. It felt really effective. While I was on my back, I asked for a mirror which was something in my first birth, my voice had said, “Yeah. Go for the mirror,” but my fear had gone, “I don’t want to see. I don’t want to see that.” But this time, they didn’t have a mirror so my husband whips out his cell phone and I was like, “Don’t you dare.” He’s like, “No, no. It’s just so you can see. I wouldn’t do that Heather.” I was like, “Okay.”

Meagan: That’s actually a really great idea. 

Heather: Yeah, honestly. I got to see that. I got to really be so much more present. By the time I was pushing, yes contractions were really intense, but I was so thankful to just be able to do something about them. I had experienced this in the first labor too. With the epidural wearing off, pushing felt good. Ring of fire did not. I could feel that. That was super intense, but I had really gotten back into the zone at this point.

I guess I had tested out my provider and she was like, “No. You’re doing it. You’re doing great.” They really could never get the monitors to continuously monitor me. They tried one of the wireless ones and baby girl and I were just moving too much. I was thinking, “That’s fine. We’re moving. That’s what we need to do.” So I would push and then the labor nurse who apparently was a little snarky about me not being on continuous monitoring would slide the monitor down and at one point, the midwife was like, “That’s your baby’s heartbeat. Your baby’s doing good.” A few times, they reminded me to take really slow breaths in between so we kept that oxygen going. 

After a while, probably about 45 minutes or maybe longer of pushing, I got back up on the squat bar and it really got serious by this point. I remember the midwife was like, “Okay. There is about this much, about two inches between you and the bed, so once this head is delivered, we’re going to carefully roll you to your back and then we’ll deliver the rest of the baby.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m having this birth.” So the next contraction comes and it builds. I push and I feel her just slip out entirely. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Heather: She fell out of me at that point. In one motion, I had my eyes closed and I had been on the bar. She’s out of me and I roll back onto the back of the bed. All of a sudden, I have this very slimy, meconium-covered baby on my chest. She wasn’t covered, but she had all of this fluid come out.

Meagan: Warm and sticky.

Heather: Yes, very sticky. I was just like, “Oh my god. I did it.” It was an amazing feeling. I didn’t have this huge rush of love. It was a little bit like when I had held my son for the first time like, “Oh my gosh. There is this beautiful stranger in my arms,” but that was kind of nice. I was like, “Okay. I’m used to that. That doesn’t mean anything. I did it.” They did all of the APGAR scores and everything watching her on my chest. The nursery nurse was like, “If you see her starting to peck around, you can nurse her.” We had a successful first latch. My doula was taking pictures so we have some beautiful pictures of my husband and me just looking at this baby and looking at each other and grinning. 

I mean, I would say the biggest feeling I had after Juniper’s birth was just gratitude. I really felt so cared for in the hospital this time. I knew the midwife and she was really, really supportive. Having my doula and my husband there was great. My husband was a rockstar this time. I would say we were both kind of deer in headlights the first birth. This time, he was giving me sips of water. He was encouraging me to put on chapstick. He was holding my hand. He was just an amazing partner through this and I mean, I know my doula did a lot but I feel like she was also just kind of there. I know at one point when they were like, “There’s no birth plan. What does she want?” my doula was on it because at that point, all I would have been able to say it, “I want the things,” which would have been, “I want skin-to-skin. I want delayed cord clamping.” 

My husband cut the umbilical cord while she was on my chest. We got to see the placenta. We got alone time just to have that golden hour. I was very sore but it was nothing compared to the back labor. I just felt really like, “Okay. I can handle this recovery this time.” 

Important to note, I did have a mental health plan in place for postpartum. I still saw my providers two weeks later and it was the really warm and fuzzy midwife. She was like, “How are you feeling?” I was like, “Honestly, I’m great.” I had a little bit of baby blues a few days after where I was comically crying because my babies were growing up when one is four days old, but it was honestly a night and day difference between the baby blues and postpartum depression. Baby blues, I felt great most of the time. I had this abiding sense of gratitude and love for my husband, for my kids, thankfulness and so appreciative of the staff. 

My midwife had actually told the labor nurse to back off because she was freaking out that I wasn’t being monitored as a VBAC person but my midwife had said going into it, “I think number one, we’re going to get you a better birth this time and I think that’s going to help your mental health but number two, we’re here. We can up your dose.” I had therapy appointments already scheduled. My therapist was like, “If you need to see me twice a week, that’s fine. We’ll make this work.” Ultimately, I went into it having done a lot of preparation for postpartum and knowing that I had been through the fire the first time and I could do it if need be. Actually, it was a lot easier than I had expected. 

I think the other reason why this postpartum reason was easier was because I did do so much intensive work since my first child’s birth. I really dug into the trauma. It took a long time. There’s no timeline where you have to have it all figured out by and even during pregnancy, I was still figuring out bits and pieces of it and piecing it together and facing difficulties, but I had just told myself going into that birth, “I’m going to l listen to myself. I’m going to listen to that voice and if baby needs to be born via C-section, it’s going to be okay because I will have listened to myself this time.” That’s going to be the big difference. 

So I really tried to manage my expectations but also just to hold onto what I knew I could control and what I knew I could do. 

Meagan: I love that you say that. Hold onto what I could control. Hold onto what you can control We know in birth and in life, in everything in life, there are so many things that are truly out of our control, but for this birth, you held onto what you could control and then you were open-minded for the things that you couldn’t control. It didn’t go another route which is awesome, but if it did, you were much better prepared this time. Through this birth, I feel like we saw such a shift in you, Heather. We saw such a big shift in, “I’ve got this voice. I don’t feel I can use it. I’ve got this voice. I’m going to use it and I’m going to get my team. They’re going to know what my voice is before I get there even so if I don’t ever feel like I can use it because I’m in a space where I’m vulnerable, my team knows and they’re advocating for me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was such an important part for me. I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, “I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.” I also want my kids to know sometimes life is uncontrollable and that we can trust things but we can also just accept that some things are going to be hard. We don’t know what the outcome is going to be. 

I really had this saying in the back of my head, “Don’t push the river. The river of labor is going to come. It’s going to take me where it takes me.” From the water breaking to her being out, it was maybe 7 hours. She was born at 9:58 AM so an hour and a half after I got to the hospital. So much did go how I wanted. So much was a lot harder than I expected, but I had prepared myself in so many ways. I knew I was strong. I knew I had been preparing my body, my mind, and my emotions. I really had just been so vulnerable with my husband and myself. I knew I could tap into that vulnerability as strength which is honestly one reason why I am here today is that I really hope that we can all find that. It’s hard. 

Meagan: It is hard. It’s really hard. We’ve talked about this in other episodes. It’s hard to even recognize or accept that you need to do that. It’s hard to even get to that point. There are so many times when we just brush it away so I love it. I love that you go through all of that work for for yourself. Look at what that did. Look at the impact. Like you said, it’s okay. You’re still going through things. You’re still working through things and you are probably going to for a while and that is okay, but you’re helping you and you’re taking charge for you.

Heather: Mhmm, yep. I feel so good about the example that’s for my kids. 

Meagan: Exactly. Exactly, yes. Thank you so much for coming into this space and being so vulnerable and sharing these beautiful stories. I know as a mom myself going through two undesired Cesareans and both in different ways, I understand that space of wanting to be that strength but not feeling like you can and then through work and processing and education, being able to be there and say, “Okay. I’ve got this for myself. I’ve got this for myself.”

Listeners, you can do that too. If you are like Heather and I and have been in a moment, and it doesn’t even just apply in birth, it may apply in all things in life where we feel vulnerable and we feel stuck, you can do it. You can trudge through the mud. Sometimes it’s really feeling like you’re trudging with ankle weights on. It’s thick and it’s heavy, but you can do it. You are strong. 

Something I also wanted to mention is patient advocacy. I don’t know if that’s ever been spoken about on the podcast. I don’t know if many people even know it exists. I believe from my knowledge that it exists in every hospital because there unfortunately are things that happen in hospitals where patients need to go in. But if you are like Heather and you’ve had this experience, don’t shy away. Heather, do you have any tips on how to maybe approach a provider in that way of, “Hey, I’ve got this going on.” How could someone start that conversation or who in the hospital can they contact to find the patient advocacy program?

Heather: Yeah, so I knew about it because my social worker was also a therapist. I would say that finding social workers is going to be the first step because they are the ones trained to know the systems. I know that there are always going to be some kind of social worker attached to the hospital system. When I had that awful doctor appointment with that obstetrician, I actually did approach the social worker. She’s not a therapist but she was like, “Here’s the name of the person who you should talk to.” 

I actually have that card but I haven’t contacted them yet because I’m giving myself space and grace but I will. I will at some point and say, “This happened and it was not okay.” I would say if you are afraid to talk to your provider about it, just ask your provider who the social worker is and how to get in contact with them. I don’t think hospitals usually advertise that super well at all. 

Meagan: They don’t. 

Heather: But telling your provider if your provider is the one that you are reporting, telling them that you want to talk to the social worker is a neutral way to go about it. If you’re like me and had a wonderful midwife but had an issue with another person, you could probably talk directly to your provider about like, “I need to talk to a patient advocate. What happened was not okay and I want somebody to listen to me.” 

Meagan: Yeah. This is the thing. I think you touched on it earlier. It’s not always to just be like, “I want to sue this person.” It’s not about that, but I will tell you right now, it’s going to make change. It’s going to make change. You are advocating for another birthing person who is walking in and maybe is in a vulnerable space and doesn’t feel that they can speak for themselves or maybe after some more education from a provider’s standpoint or a nurse’s standpoint, they can step back and be like, “Okay. I’ve learned about this and I’m not going to take this approach because it’s affected someone else.” 

It’s okay. It’s okay to do that. You really are. You’re advocating for the future people.

Heather. Yep. It really can help you heal too. 

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s one of the biggest takeaways from personally doing that. Like you said, it didn’t help everything. It didn’t cure all of your feelings, but it gave you some validation. It gives you power in your healing. So I love that you spoke about that and all about the postpartum. I’m so glad you had a much better and healing and beautiful experience the second time around. 

Heather: Yes, me too. I really felt so much better cared for this time. 

Meagan: Good. Good. Well, congratulations again. 

Heather: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

The amazing Gina Conley from MamasteFit joins Meagan today to answer your questions all about perinatal fitness! Gina is a birth doula, perinatal fitness trainer, and founder of MamasteFit. ​​In partnership with her sister, Roxanne, who is a labor and delivery nurse and student-midwife, MamasteFit is a place for women to find education courses and fitness programs to be their strongest selves during each stage of motherhood. 

Gina shares her expertise on how exercise affects babies during pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum. She also touches on topics like when to start prenatal exercise, what to do if you didn’t exercise before pregnancy, how late into pregnancy you can exercise, weightlifting, and which movements to incorporate to create more space in the pelvis. 

Gina’s comprehensive prenatal fitness book, Training for Two, will be released in September 2024. It is a fantastic resource for all pregnant women!

Link to Gina's Book: Training for Two

MamasteFit Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

01:00 Review of the Week

03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? 

09:00 How will exercise affect my baby’s development? 

13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomes

16:23 What do I do if I wasn’t active before pregnancy?

19:30 Movements to incorporate

20:59 Three pelvic levels 

23:19 The mid-pelvis and outlet

25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too small

30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?

32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?

34:43 Postpartum fitness

39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancy

45:51 Training for Two

Meagan: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. We are going to be talking about prenatal fitness today with the one and only Gina Conley. Gina is the founder of MamasteFit, a prenatal fitness training company based out in North Carolina. Gina is a fitness trainer specializing in pre and post-natal fitness and a birth doula. She combines her expertise in both to prepare her clients for a strong pregnancy and birth. 

Fitness in general is one of my all-time favorite things to do and talk about. I do notice a difference when I’m not moving my body, but when it comes to pregnancy, there are a lot of questions surrounding fitness. Is it safe? When is it okay to start? Is it really okay to start later on? How to start? And so much more. 

I can’t wait to dive in on all of the amazing information that Gina is going to share after the Review of the Week. 

01:00 Review of the Week

Meagan: Just a reminder, if you have not left a review, I would love for you to do so. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Facebook, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

Today’s review is by Janae Rachelle. It says, “The Best There Is.” It says, “I am so happy I found this podcast. After having two prior C-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another C-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered and educated and hopeful I can do this. Thank you for all of the true facts and the safe space where we can all talk about our birth trauma and space where we don’t sound ‘crazy’ for wanting to do something God created our bodies to do.”

Thank you, Janae Rachelle, for leaving that review. You are right. This is that space. This is the space where we do talk about all of the crazy things, where we talk about the trauma, where we talk about the things where in the outside world if we were to discuss them, people would and sometimes do look at us like we may be crazy. But Women of Strength, if you are wanting to pursue a VBAC, if you are wanting to learn about the evidence about VBAC, this is definitely the place. 

All of these stories here are going to share so much information, guidance, facts, and all of the things, and definitely leave you feeling inspired. 

03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? 

Meagan: Okay, it’s been so fun. We’ve actually had just a couple of returning guests from the show who have also been on 2-3 years down the road. Before we started recording, Gina was like, “I just had someone say that they listened to my episode that was on your podcast before”, which was 3 years ago. It’s fun to see that people one, are still listening all the way back to 3 years ago and then two, have you back on the show. So welcome. 

Gina: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. 

Meagan: Yes. It’s such an honor. You know that I just love you to pieces. I’m so excited to talk about fitness, prenatal, postpartum, and all of the things today because this really is a topic that as a first-time mom, I didn’t really know much about. When I was first pregnant with my daughter who is now 12, I was just determined. I was like, I’m going to run. I’m going to run a half marathon. This is going to be so great. I’m going to be one of those running through with a big belly. 

I was so excited to be fit and active. Let me tell you, I was the opposite of that. When I was training, I started having round ligament pains and pelvic pains. When I talked to my doctor, he actually told me to stop. He told me to stop which is kind of crazy to me looking back that it wasn’t even just like, “Maybe do less miles or don’t train for a half marathon right now, but do a 5k.” It was just like, “You should just stop. It’s too much.” 

I don’t know why I took that advice as, Okay, I should stop and I should eat Chinese food every day because orange chicken sounded amazing and I should really just not do anything besides be unhealthy.

That’s truly how I felt like I was in my first pregnancy. I don’t think providers all over the world are telling people not to work out necessarily like mine did 12 years ago, but I think that it’s a very daunting topic and we don’t know what to do. I think a lot of people who may not be very physically active before pregnancy are unsure what they can do during pregnancy, if it’s safe, and all of the things. 

We have a big list of questions today to ask you and really, number one is Is it bad to work out during pregnancy? My easy answer is no, but I think it’s a real answer. Can we talk about that? Working out during pregnancy– is it bad? Is it good? Tell me all of the things. 

Gina: There is a lot of fear-mongering and fear involved with exercise during pregnancy. There is this really long list of things that you shouldn’t do so it gets really overwhelming to know, Well, what can I do? when the majority of the things that you see are Don’t do sit-ups. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. If you lift weights, you’ll have a miscarriage. 

A lot of fear that comes with fitness during pregnancy is, Is it going to affect my baby’s development and growth? Am I harming my baby by exercising? And then the second is, Is it going to affect my pregnancy length? Am I going to have a miscarriage or go into pre-term labor because I was exercising during my pregnancy? 

The answer to both of those is generally no. Just as a disclaimer, there are absolutely complications in which the benefits of exercising do not outweigh the risks of exercising. These are usually folks who have preexisting heart and lung conditions, if you have uncontrolled diabetes, if you are actively in pre-term labor, if your placenta is detaching, or have severe preeclampsia. There are circumstances in which exercising is not safe and your provider should be very clear in communicating that to you. You will probably already have preexisting exercise recommendations if it is a preexisting health condition. 

But for the majority of us who are of a normal-risk pregnancy, even some high-risk pregnancies, exercise is typically very safe to do. So a lot of research supports that it does not cause miscarriage and it does not affect the length of your pregnancy which is one of the major concerns with exercising. The risk of miscarriage is highest in the first trimester and it doesn’t differ whether you exercise or you don’t. 

Exercise does not cause miscarriage. It’s just something else that folks like to be blamed for when they do have a pregnancy loss. It was because I went running. It was because I lifted weights. Typically, there is nothing that you could do do prevent that pregnancy loss and it just sucks to be mourning this and then to have this additional guilt put on you like it was because you were lifting weights. There are people who are sedentary and don’t exercise at all and have miscarriages. Are we blaming them that it’s because you didn’t exercise? No, because it’s one of those things that is out of our control. 

09:00 How will exercise affect my baby’s development? 

Gina:The second thing is, is it going to affect my baby's development? Like, is it going to make them too small? Is it going to make them too large? One of the things that can make your baby too small is the placenta. So if the placenta hasn't developed properly or there's an issue or complication with the placenta, it can make your baby too small. 

Well, exercise helps to improve the function of your placenta, especially if you exercise in the first half of your pregnancy, which is really cool. Your placenta will be more voluminous. It'll be larger and it'll have improved functional capacity. It's going to be able to transfer oxygen and nutrients to your baby much more effectively. It's going to help provide immune function to your baby. It's going to provide hormone function to your baby. It's also going to help remove metabolic waste more effectively. It's going to be a much more efficient organ, which is going to help to support your baby's growth. 

The second half is like, is it going to make my baby too big? I think most folks are not concerned about exercising and making their baby too big, but exercising could decrease the risk of developing gestational diabetes. Obviously, you can still exercise and eat super healthy and still develop gestational diabetes. It's not a foolproof method to avoid it. 

But exercising can help reduce your risk of developing gestational diabetes by 39% which is pretty substantial. And if you do develop it, continuing to exercise and eat well can also help to reduce the risk of you needing to get insulin or medication to manage your gestational diabetes. Those are the things that are contributing towards developing a baby that's too large. So having gestational diabetes that's controlled with insulin, uncontrolled gestational diabetes, and those two things can be mitigated with exercise. 

Exercise can actually help your baby grow more optimally, to have really good body composition, and be a really good size.

In addition, which is really cool– and this is stuff that I was researching when I was writing my new book, Training for Two, which comes out in September. I'm really excited about it. I guess it's like the twins in my current pregnancy. 

Meagan: It’s awesome. 

Gina: But one of the things that I was researching because our editor was like, “We really need to highlight why exercise is so beneficial for baby because this is something that's going to help motivate people to move their body.” Something for me that has been helping to motivate me during my current pregnancy to move when I'm kind of like, But I don't really feel up to it is one, it helps to improve your baby's nervous system development, which is really cool. It helps to increase their blood volume as well. They have more blood reserve to respond to the stresses of labor and to postpartum after they are infants. 

When they're in the world, it improves their brain development. They have more cognitive function. And these are all things that are probably in response to the stimulus of exercise. So we're introducing more stimulus to them during exercise because of this controlled stress that we're introducing which is helping to build all these new neural pathways and helping them just start doing things a little bit earlier. 

What that translates to in the first year of life, they have more motor skill development, so their fine and gross motor skills. They're crawling earlier, they're walking earlier, they're rolling and doing things earlier. They have more cognitive function. That's responding with higher levels of IQ and improved language skills. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Gina: So there's a lot of benefit to just being active. It doesn't have to be go and lift super heavy weights. It can just be going for walks every day, doing yoga every day, and doing intentional movement throughout the day is exercise. It doesn't have to be like how I exercise. Then what happens is that even though there are all of these benefits to exercising and fairly little risk unless you have like a complication which your provider will ideally walk you through. 

Even though there are all these benefits, there's still a lot of fear involved with working out during pregnancy. A lot of it's just outdated guidance and folks. I think it probably relates to the fear of women lifting weights and exercising, too. Maybe it's a little bit of that as well. And then make it somebody who's pregnant and it's just like a double whammy. So we have this mentality of like, Well, it's better to be safe than sorry. 

And it's like, Well, actually, you can be sorry. You can actually be sorry if you don't move your body intentionally during your pregnancy because one, not that your baby would be less developed, but we're going to say no thanks to those additional development things that they're having with the nervous system and their brain development. Those are two really big deals, I think. We're going to say no to a larger, more functional placenta which really helps to decrease the risk of developing certain complications during pregnancy. We're going to say like, I'm good with increasing my risk of developing like a prenatal complication, which again, exercising does not equal no complications, but it does reduce the risk to include preeclampsia, gestational hypertension, and gestational diabetes. 

13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomes

Gina: And if we have a healthier pregnancy, it's going to serve us better during labor as well or in the preparation for labor. We develop complications. It increases the necessity of a medical induction. It increases the number of interventions that were being used during our birth. And yes, I am so thankful for medical intervention, for C-sections, and for these things that save lives. But if we can use less of them because we're healthier going into our birth, that's going to help improve birth outcomes as well. 

This is a VBAC podcast. So if you're wanting to have a vaginal birth after a C-section, being healthier during your pregnancy by moving your body intentionally is a really good way to help reduce the risk of needing these additional interventions. I'm thankful for them. But if you don't need them, let's go around that. Let's do that path. 

Meagan: Let’s avoid them if we can. Absolutely. And let me tell you, talking about my first pregnancy where I just kind of quit, I mean, I didn't even really walk. I mean, not even like a 30-minute stroll at night. I just stopped and I really didn't pay attention to my protein intake or what I was really eating. I mean, I was literally told this at the end that I was unrecognizable. Everything about my body was trying to just make a baby and it was showing in a negative way because I was struggling. I got super swollen. I gained a lot more weight. I really was not in shape. 

When labor came, it was harder. It was a lot harder. And then postpartum was really hard. And then having to catch up to all the things that I did to my body, but then not even to think about all the things that you just said about the baby. I mean, I was one of those people that signed up to the “no thanks”. I mean, essentially, right? It wasn't in my head that I was saying that. And then after my, that pregnancy, I was like, I will not do that again. 

I did. I started changing my ways and doing intentional movement. I became a Barre coach and really wanted to be active. It was a night and day difference, night and day difference. I don't think my baby's less smart or whatever, but I will say that like what you said, I can look back and be like, Oh, oh, I can recognize those things. So that's kind of interesting. 

Gina: So it's not like if you don't exercise, you're screwing up your baby’s life or anything. I don't know how to feel the differences between the two, but if you can do things to help improve your baby's growth and development, I think we would want to do that. Even if it's just going for a walk, just move your body. 

16:23 What do I do if I wasn’t active before pregnancy?

Gina: I think one of the things is the next question that's on the list is like, Well, what do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?

Meagan: Yes. 

Gina: Because I do have folks that'll either come to my gym– we're located in Aberdeen, North Carolina. We have an in-person training facility. And so we'll have folks that show up and be like, “I have never exercised before in my life, but I heard it's really good for me and I'm pregnant. Help me.” You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. This is hard to know because you get told, “Whatever you're doing before pregnancy, you could just continue during your pregnancy, just do a little bit less.” 

What if I was not doing anything? How do I do less than that? Like what does that even look like? 

Meagan: Right. 

Gina: You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. Yes, it will look different than pre-pregnancy workouts. If you were an active person before pregnancy, there will be some sort of modification that needs to happen because workouts can't look exactly the same when we're pregnant. But if you're like, Okay, how do I even begin? Just pick 20 minutes where you go for a walk. Pick 20 minutes where you choose a Peloton on-demand video. They have prenatal ones on there too where you just follow that. We have prenatal on-demand workout videos as well. We also have a prenatal app-based program, so we have some different options as well. 

Just choose a 20-minute option and just move. Just move your body. Use lighter weights. We're not trying to get super sore. You probably will be sore the first week or so. It's just part of getting used to the program.

Meagan: It’s not normal, yeah. 

Gina: It's normal, but don't be working out so hard that you're incapacitated the rest of your day, start for 20 minutes and do that three times a week, and then the next week do it four times and then increase it to 30 minutes. Then maybe it's 40 minutes and then you're walking more. We're just going to start really slow and manageable, and then we're going to just slowly increase during pregnancy. 

The main goal during pregnancy is 150 minutes of moderate-intensity activity per week. That's the minimum goal. So if you exceed that, that's totally fine. Research supports that even higher-intensity activity is perfectly safe during pregnancy. A higher volume of exercise is perfectly safe. But the bare minimum that we're trying to aim for is 150 minutes. That's five days a week for 30 minutes or whatever the math is for the other one. 

But you can also do more than that. I would start with 20 minutes of something that feels manageable for you and do that and if it's, “Hey, I need to follow a program,” we've got programs for you. We've developed them for pregnancy specifically. There's Peloton on-demand. There are so many workout programs out there for pregnancy too. They're going to have safe modifications for you. 

You can hire a personal trainer. You can join an in-person gym. We're just looking for you to move your body in a way that feels manageable for you and it's okay if it's not perfect pregnancy workouts either. Now if you're an active person or you're like, Okay, I have done my month of exercising. I'm feeling more confident, this is where we can start to really ensure that our workouts are not only keeping us active and moving us during our pregnancy but also helping us actually prepare for birth. 

19:30 Movements to incorporate

Gina: Common workout programs are really focused on front-to-back type movement patterns. This is the sagittal plane. This is like squats, deadlifts, cleans, clean-and-jerks, box jumps. Everything is very front-to-back because this is the way that we move our bodies. When we walk we typically walk in a front-to-back movement pattern. 

However, we also need to be moving laterally and rotationally as well which is another myth. Can I twist during pregnancy? Yes, you can twist. It’s necessary to twist. If you don't twist, your back will hurt. I promise you it's okay to twist. Now we don't want to do such deep twists that we’re compressing our belly because it would be really uncomfortable. Not because it would be harmful for you, but we want to we want to be comfortable during our pregnancy. 

We want to also be incorporating movement patterns that are in other planes of motion ot just front-to-back. We also want lateral movements like lateral band walks, side lunges, and movements where we're just we're going in this direction. And then we also want rotational movements. So like when I'm doing lunges, I'm adding an internal to an external rotation or I'm doing a rotation with a core exercise. 

We want to think about what type of movements are we incorporating or are included in our workout programs because that is really important to creating space in our pelvis which is not the point of this episode, but fitness can really relate to labor in that aspect as well. It's keeping you strong during your pregnancy. It's helping to support your baby's development. It's helping to decrease your risk of complication but we can also use it to help prepare for our birth. 

20:59 Three pelvic levels 

Gina: And so there are three pelvic levels and I'll go over this super quick. The top opens in one way, then we have the middle, and then we have the bottom. We have inlet, mid-pelvis, outlet, and they all open with different types of movement patterns which is where moving in different planes of motion is going to be really helpful. The top of the pelvis opens with wider knee movement patterns like an external hip rotation with an anterior tilt with abduction. Legs are moving out. Think knees out, ankles in so really deep squats for example. 

An anterior tilt or arching your back is going to be really helpful because this makes it easier for you to find external rotation. It also changes the pubic bone angle and makes it easier for baby to enter into the pelvis. The good news is we already do that during pregnancy. That's a common postural tendency that we have. We like to live in that position. It's comfortable for us. We have more weight on the front. We're just extending in our spine and just loving that spot. 

However, we also need to be able to find other types of movements such as a posterior pelvic tilt or rounding in the back. This one is really important to opening the top of the pelvis in addition to an anterior tilt. So with a posterior pelvic tilt, we have this big chunk of bone on the back of our pelvis called the sacral promontory that moves backward when we tuck our butt underneath or we round in our back. That anterior pelvic tilt creates a little bit more space in the front half of the inlet and then that posterior pelvic tilt creates more space in the back. 

We want to be able to shift between the two but because we always favor this extended position, it can be really hard to find that rounded position. If you had a prior labor where baby just never entered and they were like, “Your pelvis is just too small. Baby just can't fit in your pelvis,” it probably was more related to whether or not you can find– and I don't want to blame anybody for what happened with labors but just helpful tips. If you're having a hard time finding a round in your back or tucking your butt underneath, it's going to be harder to create that front-to-back space in the pelvic inlet and it can make it harder for baby to enter. 

So during our prenatal workouts, we want to think about, Okay, what can we do to help me find more of a rounded position? We can release tension in our lats or musculature. We can release tension in our hip flexors. We can incorporate pelvic tilts into our movement patterns. Those are some things that we can do to help us find this more rounded position. 

23:19 The mid-pelvis and outlet

Gina: The next pelvic level the mid pelvis is asymmetrical movements like side-to-side, hip shifting, and so we have a little bit of external rotation and a little bit of internal rotation. We're just going back and forth between the two. 

Then the bottom of the pelvis with the pelvic outlet is essentially like the opposite of the inlet where we have an internal rotation at the hip where knees in, ankles out is creating more space side-to-side. A slight posterior pelvic tilt can help to make internal rotation easier, but we're not necessarily rounding in our back as we're pushing because it's not really that comfortable. 

Anterior pelvic tilt or a little bit more lat tension can kind of pull that sacrum back so we're kind of back to that pelvic tilting a little bit in the outlet, but we're really focusing on that internal rotation to create space. But if we recall, our favorite positions during pregnancy are extension and external rotation. That rounded position is harder and internal rotation is harder. In addition, that prenatal posture tends to make the back half of the pelvic floor really tight so we need to one, be able to release tension in the posterior pelvic floor and help us find more internal rotation. We can do that with our prenatal workouts as well. 

This is where hip-shifted exercises can be really beneficial like finding internal-external rotation with our single leg movements. These are all things that we incorporate within our prenatal programming because we have been observing birth and people working out for a really long time and we want to help you move through your pregnancy and through your birth. We also have a free birth prep circuit that I'll give you the link for that you can put in the notes as well. It has six movements that help you release those common areas of tension. 

We also have our prenatal fitness program if anybody's interested in working out. We have lots of different options for that as well. But when we're looking at our prenatal workouts, we need to look beyond just one– we just want to be active and intentionally active and then two– we want to think, Okay. Well, how does my workout help to support my birth preparation? How is it helping to create more space in my pelvis? How is it helping me release tension in my pelvic floor? Those are things that are going to help us to support us during birth. Yeah, that was a really long answer to you. 

Meagan: No, it was an amazing answer. It's interesting because I never really thought when you were like, “Front-to-back”, we focus so much on front-to-back. There's that lateral movement that a lot of the time we skip and I didn't even think of that. I know in your book, we've got a couple of little teasers online within your book. You've been showing different ways to work those sides and move your body in different ways. That is amazing. 

25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too small

I love that you talked about the pelvis, the inlet, the middle, and the outlet because I'm pretty sure you probably have known this within the VBAC community. How many times are we told that our pelvis is too small? I mean, all of the time. 

Gina: It makes me so mad. Once you get told something really random or a fun fact about your pelvis like, “You have a really prominent sacrum or pubic bone.” What does that mean? 

Meagan: Yes. What does that mean? 

Gina: How can I take that information and do something with it? Instead of acknowledging that yes, each of us has different types of pelvises. Similarly, we're all from different ethnic backgrounds. Of course, we would have slightly different pelvises. We have different femur lengths. 

Meagan: Right. 

Gina: However, we can all still figure out how to squat and figure out how to do movement patterns that make us functional humans even with differing bone structures. It just blows my mind that we don't acknowledge the fact that the pelvis can change shape and diameter and displacement with movement. Our baby is also shape-shifting and wiggling their way through the pelvis as well. But the only person to blame is you. It’s because your pelvis is just too small. 

Meagan: Right. I know. 

Gina: Maybe you didn't know how to support me. 

Meagan: I know I have those same feelings. It's very frustrating. I think it's probably a little extra salt on the wound because I was told that. I was told that I would never get a baby out of my pelvis. Like you were saying, you're like, “Well, maybe I just wasn't supported well enough. Maybe I wasn't given the tools or the positions,” like what you're describing. 

I mean, with my first labor, I just sat there in the bed, clinging to the side, and then got an epidural and sat there. Really? Like, so I wasn't moving my pelvis. I wasn't doing those asymmetrical movements. I really wasn't working with my body to get my baby out. Okay. So a question that I know that we have received is the anterior placenta. So does fitness change if or what we're doing change if we have an anterior placenta? 

Gina: Really, if you have an anterior placenta, a posterior placenta, it closes out on the side, it doesn't really matter where it is unless it is covering the cervix. At that point, like, there will probably be some sort of modification, because we don't want to have any sort of cervical dilation or cramping or urinary irritability that can cause the cervix to begin to dilate which may cause the placenta to start to detach which would not be ideal. 

So typically, if you have any sort of placenta previa, potentially like a low-lying placenta in the third trimester, after 28 weeks, we probably want to modify it to where we're not doing super deep squats. We're not exercising at a high intensity. It's low to moderate. If you are experiencing any bleeding or cramping during your workouts, you’re stopping immediately. 

But in regards to the placenta being in the front or the back, there really is no difference when it comes to exercise. The baby is pretty snug as a bug in a rug. 

Meagan: Snug as a bug in a rug. They are pretty protected in there. They are pretty deep in there. 

Gina: They are. They are. Now when it comes to certain birth options, sometimes an anterior placenta– usually with an ECV if baby’s are breech, providers don’t want to do it if you have an anterior placenta. It may be harder for you to feel your babies. You should feel your baby but it may be muted. You would be like, I kind of feel you, when in comparison, if you had a posterior placenta, there’s a little alien rolling around in your belly.

Meagan: Right. Or you might not feel kicks until them later on in your pregnancy when someone with a posterior placenta is feeling those little butterfly kicks early one. 

Gina: Yeah. It will be more muted. But in regards to exercise, the only placenta position that would result in modifications is a low-lying or placenta previa where the placenta is covering the cervix. But usually for those, if you found out at your 18-week anatomy scan, they usually resolve within a few weeks so you can always ask for a repeat scan, but typically, we don’t need to modify until the 28-week mark. But again, if your provider has given you specific guidance on what they consider to be safe for you with exercise because again, they are looking at your medical records. They are looking at you as an individual and this is just a podcast. 

Definitely go with their guidance, but typically, they do move. There usually is not an issue into the third trimester with that either. 

Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so good. 

30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?

Meagan: Another question is, How “late in pregnancy” is okay for me to work out? We’re talking about early, what we’re doing. We may be started to feel really good. We may be increasing our physical activity. We might be more mindful. Now, it’s on top of intentional movement. It’s on birth prep and really getting ready for this birth journey. Is there a time when we should cut off physical activity or is it okay to be doing squats and lateral movements and yoga one day and go into labor the next day?

Gina: You can workout until the day that you give birth. Now, how intense your workouts are will probably decrease toward the end of the third trimester. For us, around the 36-37-week mark, we do certain tapering in the program which means we start decreasing overall volume and intensity of workouts because one, we are just more tired at the end of the pregnancy. We still want to move and be active, but we also need to be in the mind that, Tonight, I might go into labor so I don’t want to be super sore from my workout. 

Similar to if I was training for an athletic event, not that birth is a competition or anything, I wouldn’t want to be doing my hardest workout the morning of the competition. Again, birth is not a competition but with that type of fitness mentality, you’re like, Okay, well birth is probably going to be physically demanding even if it’s super fast. It’s still physically demanding. I probably don’t want to be super sore or super fatigued going into that. 

So around the 36-37-week mark, you can decrease overall volume. If you were working out at 200 minutes a week, maybe at week 37, we are only doing 150 minutes a week, and at week 38, we are doing 100 minutes a week and then maintaining that so whenever your baby decides to come. 

32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?

Gina: We also get folks who ask, When is it too late to start? I would say if you gave birth, it’s too late. It’s probably too late for prenatal fitness at this point. Kind of like, When is it too late to get an epidural? It’s when your baby is born. When your baby is born, it’s too late to start a prenatal fitness program. 

We will have folks who are 35 weeks. They are like, I’ll just wait for postpartum. I’m like, You might have 2 months left. That’s a long time. 8 weeks, that’s a whole fitness challenge or whatever. You know those ones where it’s like, “6 Weeks to a Bigger Booty”, it might be 6 weeks until a baby. That’s still a good period of time to move your body. It doesn’t have to be training for a PR, it’s just learning how to release tension, starting to build up some stamina, some endurance for the big day. 

Now, if you’re 38 weeks and you’re in that, I could go into labor anytime, I probably wouldn’t start a lifting program at that point. I would probably be focusing more on yoga and mobility-type things. Walking, just trying to release tension in my body. I wouldn’t be like, Let me go squat and deadlift for the first time in my whole pregnancy. I would do more breathing and stretching. That would be more reasonable to me. 

Once you hit the 36-37 mark and you’re like, Can I start something now? Absolutely. A prenatal yoga program would be my recommendation. Going for walks and things like that. If you’re 32, 33 or even to 35 weeks, I would say that you can start a lifting program. I would say to start our prenatal program at that point because we do have a monthly option. You can just grab the months that you need. We also have a just third-trimester program on demand. 

You can still intentionally move, but it’s just going to be a little bit more mindful to the fact that we are kind of at the end of this journey, but it’s definitely not too late to start unless you gave birth. At that point, it’s probably a little too late. But what can you do? 

Meagan: Now you’re going into postpartum after your baby is born. 

Gina: Yeah, then we can focus on postpartum stuff. 

34:43 Postpartum fitness

Meagan: Which is also a thing. There are postpartum programs. There’s a lot after birth that we can do. I know this wasn’t in the questions that we were talking about but it led into this where a lot of people don’t know when they can start working out after birth. For my second C-section, at that point, I was a Barre instructor and at 4 weeks, I went back before I was technically cleared. I was just following my body doing the very minimal. 

When is it appropriate to start a postpartum training program? 

Gina: It depends on the program. We have a free early postpartum recovery course that is intended to start within a few days after birth which is just breathing mobility and some stretches. It’s really, really gentle stuff just to reconnect with our body but it’s not like, go lift weights or anything. 

Usually, I would recommend doing a gentle program like that for 4-6 weeks. I’ll give you the link to that as well as another. It’s just a program that we offer. After the 10-week mark is when most folks can start to return to fitness. This will vary from person to person, whether you had a vaginal birth, whether you had a C-section, whether you had a hemorrhage, how much support do you have postpartum, and how your healing has been so far. It can really vary from person to person. I can’t even say 4 weeks for unmedicated vaginal birth, 10 weeks if you had a labored C-section because even within that is a whole realm of where you might be. 

Meagan: It is. 

Gina: So just giving yourself some grace and knowing that there is plenty of time to return to fitness. Obviously, we don’t want to wait 5 years, but it’s okay. 

Meagan: You don’t have to jump into it. 

Gina: Yeah, it’s okay if it’s 12 weeks before you start a program. It will be fine. Again, we don’t want to wait for 5 years. That’s a long time to live with whatever we are having postpartum. Usually 4-10 weeks is when I say if you feel ready and you want to start moving your body, that’s usually a good time to start. 

We’re looking for bleeding to pretty much be stopped. We’re not having any issues still lingering from birth so we are not having any infections from birth. We are not having post-birth surgeries or anything like that. That may delay things a little bit longer. If you’ve had a hemorrhage, that will delay you a little bit just because your blook is trying to replenish itself from all of that. 

Sometimes a C-section blood loss or hemorrhage can be a little bit higher, but you can also have severe hemorrhage from a vaginal birth as well. Just honor how you are feeling. 

Then when you do return to fitness, it is a gradual slow process of reconnecting with this new body. I know there sometimes is this mentality of, I want to bounce back. I want to get back to who I was, especially if postpartum is hard, which it is, or if birth wasn’t what you expected, which it can be for a lot of folks. There can be this, Let me get back to something that reminds me of myself and who I was before so I’ll do my workouts and get back to my workouts. 

Meagan: That was me. 

Gina: I love working out. That’s a part of my identity. I can sympathize with that desire, but if we rush that process, it’s going to delay you in the long run. You’ll be 4-6 months postpartum. You’ll be like, Why am I still leaking? Why do I still have a diastasis? I just feel unstable. But when we take the time in the beginning to really reconnect, really focus on the foundational core work, and really rebuild slowly which is painful to do sometimes. Not painful physically, but painful mentally, it really helps so, so much in the long run. 

So take your time. Again, we have a program to support you if you want it but there are so many programs out there too that suit everyone’s individual needs depending on the sport that you are trying to get back to as well. 

Meagan: Right, I love how you talked about mentally it can be so hard. It was for me. It just was so hard. I just needed to get out and move my body. I did follow my body, but so what you were saying, mentally it is hard and can hurt us but physically it was too much for me. I did have to take a step back. I went to this hour class. I cut it back, but it set me back 3 more weeks because I was like, Okay, I probably shouldn’t have done that. Noted. Thanks body. 

Gina: It happens. It happens to the best of us. 

Meagan: Thanks body for letting us know. I was able to return. I love how you talked about reconnecting with our pelvic floor and all of the things. Breathing in itself is so powerful, so I love that you are focusing on that. We’ll make sure to put in the show notes the link for your program. 

39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancy

Meagan: Okay, so last two questions. Weightlifting is a big one. I love weightlifting myself and I follow quite a few accounts who have gone through pregnancy like yourself and weight lifted. I am flabbergasted to see some of the negative comments on pregnant people lifting because it bugs me. It bugs me that people are so negative about it and judging them like, What are you doing? You kind of touched on that earlier. I don’t know why lifting sometimes with women in general, but then add pregnancy to that is really hard. You kind of mentioned that maybe at the end you’re not going to join a weightlifting program, but how can someone start with a very gentle approach to weightlifting? I do feel like especially if weightlifting is not something you are used to, it can be very, very intimidating. 

I know in your book, you have a section where you’re like, Instead of doing this, try this. Instead of doing deadlifts, try these, which is awesome because it can give us an idea. But can you guide someone who is like, I really want to weightlift but I’m so intimidated to start? What is a gentle way to start approaching that? 

Gina: If you live by us, you can just come to our gym and we will walk you through it which is usually the easiest way to learn how. If there is a lifting class somewhere or an intro to lifting or even a women’s fitness-type class, that could be a good way to get introduced to, How do I lift safely? 

Some CrossFit gyms will have Intro to CrossFit which can or cannot be great for starting during pregnancy, but they can at least teach you how to squat, how to deadlift, how to bench press, and there are barbell gyms out there that might have lifting classes. Even just box gyms like Planet Fitness or Gold’s Gym might have lifting classes. 

Hire a personal trainer to walk you through what to do. That can take some of the intimidation out because you don’t have to walk into this gym into this section that is male-dominated and be like, “Hello. I am pregnant. I am trying to squat. Can you hand me a dumbbell?” 

So it can be really scary to do that. You can also purchase some weights for your home. Dicks Sporting Goods has really good deals on gym equipment that is very inexpensive. It is cheaper quality so they won’t last you a long time, but if you’re like,  I just need to get started, that can be a great place to go. Amazon has really good sales pretty frequently to get cheap equipment that is still a moderate quality. Rep Fitness is one of our favorites for higher quality equipment that is still affordable then Rogue would be the super expensive brand. I would say them and Rep Fitness are the same quality. 

It depends on how much you want to invest. You can get the stuff and have it at your home as well. Usually, I would say to grab some dumbbells. If you want to explore barbell, buy a barbell and some bumper plates. They have sets that you can get for that. You can buy yourself a squat rack. That’s if you want to do barbell stuff. You can also do a ton of stuff with just kettlebells and dumbbells. 

I really like resistance bands. Those are huge in our programming. They are really un-intimidating. They are very easy to use. They are an attachment point for resistance bands. A box to step up on. You can also use a stool. It’s easy to get started, but you just have to figure out what type of environment you want to get started in. Do you want to start with a coach-type environment to guide you through it or do you want to try to figure it out on your own? 

With our programming, we walk you through how to do each movement especially with the on-demand one so you can see, Okay, this is how I’m supposed to do it, and then there will be some experimenting to figure out what feels good for you in your body to be like, Okay, when I squat, I have to spread my feet out a little bit more and that feels better for me, kind of thing. 

That can be a good way to get into it. Know that it is safe to do. I think that is probably the first fear that it is safe to do. I think that’s what you were saying. Folks love to comment some hateful things on people who are lifting weights during pregnancy. The comment the same shit on a female just lifting weights who is not pregnant. I don’t know if it’s dudes out there who are feeling very inadequate with themselves that they are like, I cannot stand that there is a strong woman out there so I’m just going to comment and critique her, then like I said before, you add on the additional layer that now she is pregnant and we have this overall belief that exercise is dangerous, people say some horrible things. 

I’m like, You do know you don’t have to comment on things, right? 

Meagan: I know. You can actually just swipe on. 

Gina: Those can be inside thoughts. 

Meagan: Yes. If you don’t have a nice comment to say, leave me alone. 

Gina: Yes, because you know what happens? You comment and then you get more pregnancy content on your feed then you’re like, Why is this pregnancy post popping up on my feed? It’s probably because you commented on this pregnant woman who was lifting weights and you said some nasty shit. That’s probably why it’s popping up on your feed, bro. 

Meagan: I love it. Oh my gosh. I know, but it actually makes me very angry and it’s not even just men. It’s women too. Why do we have to berate people for being active and choosing to lift weights during pregnancy or run marathons during pregnancy or do whatever they want? It is their body. Let them do it and honestly, we need people to share like what you guys do. We need these videos because it does offer us inspiration and also offers us a sense of, Oh, what they’re saying over here isn’t true. I want to learn more about this. 

It’s so frustrating, but it’s possible. So if you want to lift weights, Women of Strength, and you’re listening, go for it. Go for it. Check out their program. Get the book which we’re going to talk about right now I’m hoping and learn more. Learn more about fitness in pregnancy and the benefits for both mom and baby which we were just talking about in the beginning of this. 

45:51 Training for Two

Meagan: Let’s talk more about your book. You said earlier this is like the twin to your current pregnancy. I’m sure this is like another baby. I’m so excited for you. I’m so proud of you. I hope everybody in the world gets it. 

So tell us more about it and all of the things. You’ve got three parts, right? 

Gina: So right now, this is just one part to the book. Hopefully it turns into a three-part series so I need your pre-orders so that we can make a second part and a third part. 

Meagan: Pre-order everyone. 

Gina: That’s how we get the next two parts. 

The first part which will hopefully be a three-part series is all about how you can use prenatal fitness to support a strong pregnancy, a pain-free pregnancy and then also use that to prepare for birth because prenatal fitness is not just a list of pregnancy-safe “exercises”. It’s not just take out all of the sit-ups and crunches and all of the jumping and now it’s a pregnancy program which is what the majority of pregnancy programs are. It’s just a bunch of random exercises that just don’t involve crunches and sit-ups. Cool. That’s a great first step. 

But we can take it way further by ensuring that our workouts are also helping us to prepare for birth. We’re taking the pelvic floor into account. How are we integrating that in the overall system? How are we learning to release tension? How are we increasing mobility within our hips so we can find that internally and externally pelvic mobility. What movements are we incorporating to help increase the pelvic space so we can create more space for baby to navigate through? 

What kind of movements are we incorporating into our workout that helps us for our baby’s position? We’re not trying to force baby into any position, but we want to make it easy for them to find whatever their best position is. We can do that with our prenatal workouts. The book is going to break that down for you. It’s definitely a little bit heavier on the lifting side so it includes modifications for how to deadlift during pregnancy and how to bench press during pregnancy. 

All of these main lifts, we incorporate tons of accessory exercises such as core exercises that you can do during pregnancy, what signs and symptoms to be mindful of when doing core exercises, how to protect your core and pelvic floor during pregnancy. We incorporate exercises to help with pelvic stability because pelvic pain is super common but you don’t have to be in pain during pregnancy. 

Similar to you, my provider when I told him I had pelvic pain, they were like, “That sucks. When you give birth, it will go away.” I’m like, Well, that’s not true. There is a lot you can do during pregnancy to help resolve that as well. 

The book is a collection of all of the things I have learned through working with in-person prenatal clients and supporting in-person births. Hundreds of clients have helped me gain this information to write this book. My educational background and things that I’ve researched and studied have all been consolidated within this book specifically to prenatal fitness and using your prenatal fitness to stay strong and then also to help you prepare for birth. 

There is a little bit in there on labor. A bunch of that stuff got taken out because I write a lot. I have too much knowledge in this head of mine so that’s why I need a three-part series then there is one chapter on early postpartum recovery as well. We also include how to recover from a C-section in there. It’s just the first month postpartum so it’s just a taste of what book three will be. 

So help me get part two and three by pre-ordering the book. It’s on Amazon. I’ll give you the link as well. It’s $24-25. The book comes out September 14th so hopefully after my baby has been born. I will be very sad if I’m 43 weeks pregnant so I will be in the infancy of my postpartum with a newborn when this next baby, baby B has been born and would love your support with preordering it. 

We’re trying to figure out pre-order incentives right now. We may have a chapter that got cut, so if you pre-order, you get that chapter as a PDF which is all of the labor stuff- how to address labor stalls, laboring positions, what a contraction is. 

Meagan: So good. 

Gina: It was such a good chapter, but that will be in part two which is going to be birth. Part three is postpartum fitness so help me get the other parts by ordering the book. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Gina: It’s on right now. I am really excited about it. So yeah. 

Meagan: I am so excited for you. Yeah. it’s $24.99. That is amazing. We will make sure like she said to have the links to all of these things including this book pre-order link in the show notes. 

Right now, as soon as you are done listening and you’re like, Dang, that was an awesome episode, go down. Click the link and support her by buying her book. It is called Training for Two. She’s absolutely beautiful on that front cover holding her sweet baby bump. You guys, I’m so excited for this book. I’m so excited for you and I’m so grateful that you were with us today sharing all of this information. 

Gina: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Meagan welcomes Julie back today to celebrate 200 episodes of The VBAC Link podcast! They celebrate this milestone with a special live Q&A podcast recording session joined by followers of The VBAC Link Facebook community. 

Topics include: how to talk to your provider, all about Spinning Babies, adhesions, managing sciatica pain, induction, nipple stimulation to induce labor, VBAMC, C-section consent forms, and much, much more.

We can’t wait to continue sharing new episodes with you as we stay committed to our mission of making birth after Cesarean better!

Additional links

Spinning Babies website

The VBAC Link Blog: Pumping to Induce Labor

Fear Release YouTube Video

Episode 18 Leslie’s HBAC + Special Scars

Julie’s Instagram

The VBAC Link Community on Facebook

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is our 200th episode and yes, you are listening to Julie. I’m back just for this episode and probably some more in the future at some point, but we are so excited, Meagan and I, because this is the 200th episode. We are now live in our Facebook group. Not now when you are listening to it, but right now in this moment in our timeline. 

It took us way too long to get in here live, but we are doing a Facebook Live podcast episode. We have never done that before and we probably will never do it again because this was kind of traumatic.

Meagan: Yeah, this was a little rough, but that’s okay. Now that we know, now that we know, we are good. We’re good. 

Julie: Now we know.

Meagan: It just took 34 minutes to figure it out. 

Review of the Week

Julie: Oh my gosh. Cool. So, let’s get started first. There is a Review of the Week. Meagan, are you ready? Do you have one?

Meagan: Yep, I do. This is from blpinto and it’s from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Wonderful resources for ALL moms, not just VBACs.” It says, “I didn’t have a C-section for my first birth, but I had a traumatic experience with a forceps delivery and an induction that was not at all what I was looking for. I started listening to the podcast before I even got pregnant a second time to prepare for a better experience. Julie and Meagan were a huge part of my process and journey. I ultimately had a beautiful home birth and a 10-pound, 6-ounce baby. I felt this podcast helped me overcome my fear that I couldn’t push my baby out without help because many VBAC moms had the same feeling.”

I love that. I don’t know many first-time or second-time moms who haven’t had previous C-sections that have listened and left a review. So that was awesome. We truly believe that this is also a podcast for everybody. Just like wonderful Brian says at the beginning of this podcast, it’s for all expectant parents who want to avoid a Cesarean and want to learn their options and learn what’s happening out there. So that is so exciting that we had someone who hadn’t even had a C-section before. 

If you know someone who is expecting and has fear or maybe a first-time mom who has some doubts and problems and traumatic experiences in birth, definitely share the podcast. These stories are amazing for all to listen to. I would 100% agree with her.

Julie: I love that. Do you remember years ago when we first started and we were trying to figure out how we could make something, maybe not separate, for first-time parents? We were like, “How do we get first-time parents to understand that these are things they need to know?” Because you didn’t. I didn’t. As a first-time mom, I didn’t even think about a C-section until the doctor said, “We need to do a C-section,” and we never really got very far with that because the focus of The VBAC Link is a vaginal birth after Cesarean. 

Yeah, so we love that. We, I say “we”. I will always say “we” talking about The VBAC Link. 

Meagan: Literally, just earlier today, I was recording a podcast and I was like, “we”. I mean, “I”, but Julie is just over here. 

Julie: My spirit and presence exist in the VBAC realm.

Meagan: Yes. But it’s so much fun. It’s so fun to be here and I’m excited. If you guys haven’t had a chance or if you are watching live right now, we would love your reviews. Love, love, love your reviews. You can send us an email. You can write right here and I will copy it over and put it in the reviews. We are excited to dive in today on episode 200!

Q&A

Julie: Yeah. All right, all eight people who are watching. I guess one of those is me and maybe you, so six. Six people. Drop your questions. Nothing is off-limits. We are going to talk about everything you want to know. Everything you want to hear. We are going to get down and dirty with everything VBAC, wives, and kids. If you want to know what Meagan’s kid is doing right now in the background, we will talk about it. 

Meagan: Yeah, drop your questions. I’m posting here letting people know that we actually are live now. 

Julie: Oh heavens. 

VBAC: Where do I start?

Meagan: Yes. It’s so funny. I keep looking on the wrong forum. Okay, who do we have in here? Who do we have? Kathryn, Jen, and AJ thank you so much for being here. Let us know your questions. I want to maybe start off just on VBAC options. We had someone write in yesterday and was like, “One, I didn’t know VBAC was an option. I didn’t even know what it was.” So that’s wonderful that they’re starting to find out that VBAC is an option, but let’s talk about how we can have a conversation about VBAC being an option with a provider. That’s just random, I know. 

But what would you think, Julie, if you’re starting to discover VBAC, learning what it is, feeling like you want to feel it out, maybe you want to learn more about it and do it, how would you suggest approaching your provider?

Julie: Oh man, that’s a great question. First of all, we’ve got some good questions coming in too so I’m excited to answer these. Provider, honestly, I would just ask where their thought process is. I would approach them and say, “Hey. this is what I’m considering. What are your thoughts about it?” And I will tell you what. No matter what their response is and no matter what ultimately your birth plan is, you’re going to get a really good feeling for how your provider feels about body autonomy, informed consent, and birth in general because if they answer and say, “Oh, well I don’t think you are a great candidate. I don’t do VBAC. I don’t support them,” or anything that’s very sounds set in stone, so, “I don’t do this. We won’t let you do that. We would have to look at this and make sure your percentage is high,” or whatever. 

Anything that is set in stone shows you that your provider is not as supportive of other options or your provider has a very set way of doing things and may not be a good choice for you. But if they answer and say, “Yeah. We can consider VBAC as an option. Let’s talk about some things about what your goals are. I do VBACs a lot. I love VBACs” or anything like that with a more open or a more fluid answer is going to let you know that your provider is going to not only be good with whatever outcomes that you choose but is also very open to having the parent or the mother be part of the birth process and be involved in the decisions regarding their care. 

That’s really what you want to have on your side no matter what type of birth you’re having or where you are giving birth. You want to have a provider that is going to be open to your input, be a little flexible, a lot flexible based on what your needs are and the type of birth you want, and is able to accommodate that. 

Meagan: Yeah, and just that’s willing to have that conversation because a lot of providers don’t honestly come out and say, “Hey, do you want to have a TOLAC?” which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. That may be something that you have to take charge of and say, “Hey. I’m learning about this. What are your thoughts? How do you feel about it? Tell me about some experiences.” 

We always talk about open-ended questions but really, truly if you can ask an open-ended question, you’re going to be able to get more information than a “yes” or a “no” or an, “Oh yeah. Sure,” versus, “Yeah. I feel really comfortable with that. We do that all of the time. This is why.” So I love that. I know it was a random question, but a lot of people are asking, “How do I even approach this topic with my provider?”

Okay, are you ready? I’m going to read some questions. We’ll bounce back and forth. 

Julie: Yes, let’s do it.

What is Spinning Babies?

Meagan: So Ms. Kathryn says, “I just found your podcast last night.” Yay! And now you’re here on the first live one. It says, “Bingeing ever since. What is Spinning Babies? I’ve heard it talked about a lot on the podcast.” 

Spinning Babies is a wonderful resource. They have all sorts of circuits and tips and tricks on ways to navigate babies through the pelvis. Breech positions, so if you have a breech baby, they have positions and exercises to do that. We’ve got posterior. We talk and they also do baby mapping to help figure out where your baby is. 

Julie: Belly mapping. 

Meagan: What did I say? 

Julie: You said “baby mapping.”

Meagan: Baby mapping. I meant belly mapping. 

Julie: They’re the same thing.

Meagan: That’s what I meant. Baby mapping. I almost said it again. Belly mapping to help you figure out where your baby is. They can educate on if a baby is posterior, what types of things to do and what to do if a baby is asynclitic or comes over the pelvis, and what tips and tricks you can do. A lot of doulas are really educated in Spinning Babies. It is so awesome. So awesome when the client, don’t you think, is educated in this and they are familiar with it. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: So obviously, we talk about it a lot in the podcast, but we really encourage people to check out their website. They have updated their website and it’s really quite great now. It’s really friendly to navigate, so check it out. It can be a game changer. I have had positions in labor where things were just hanging out, stalling, not really going anywhere, and then we have done a Spinning Babies technique and boom, that baby rotates and labor is speeding along. 

Julie: Yeah, I love that. I think one thing that I really like about Spinning Babies too is that it puts less emphasis on babies being in this specific position and it creates more emphasis on creating room and space in the pelvis.

Meagan: Balance. 

Julie: And with the connective tissues and yes, balance and all of those things because sometimes, babies need to enter into the pelvis in a little bit what you would call “less than optimal.”

Meagan: “Less than ideal”, yeah. 

Julie: But as long as baby has enough space and room to wiggle and progress through the pelvis in the way it needs to, then you’re going to have a great, not a great, that’s a bad promise. You’re not going to have a great labor necessarily, but you’re going to be able to encounter less problems that are created by a poorly positioned baby or tissues that might be more difficult to move and things like that. So yes, balance, space, and flexibility. 

Do adhesions impact fertility?

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let’s see. AJ Hastings. “Do adhesions really impact fertility? Currently trying to conceive for seven months and was told by acupuncture that I need 12 months of weekly treatments. I definitely want another opinion.” 

So the short answer is yes it can. It can affect things. In fact, we have an episode and I will go find it here. I’m going to go find it. I’m going to drop it. It’s so weird because we are on Zoom, but we are on Facebook over here. I’m going to drop it in the Facebook group right here because it definitely impacted her. It impacted her and adhesions, depending on how dense and how thick and everything, it can impact fertility. 12 months of treatment? I don’t know. I mean, I’m not a specialist in how intense that needs to be. I have adhesions as well, but I don’t know how dense they are. 

I was fortunate enough to become pregnant, but it can impact it and it’s something to look into. I don’t think it’s bad to get a second opinion for a whole year of treatments, but I also wonder if scar massage, starting with scar massage by yourself, or going to a pelvic floor specialist and starting there might be beneficial. Julie, what would you think?

Julie: Yeah, right along with what you said, it can. That’s the thing. It doesn’t always, but it might. Adhesions, especially ones that are denser or thicker can tug and pull things in the wrong way. They can make it harder for eggs to implant and can cause a whole slew of problems for your overall health depending on the relation to different organs that they might be adhered to. All sorts of things, but it doesn’t always, right? 

One thing that I would ask my provider that’s recommending that is what other options are available, what other things might be impacting my fertility? Have you seen any other types of providers? Have you seen an OB/GYN or maybe a fertility specialist in that regard or gotten a second opinion from them? Sorry, I think she said. Yep. I’m trying to see that it was told by acupuncture. Yeah, so I would maybe consult another type of provider. But trying to conceive for seven months is kind of a long time, but it also could take up to a year without there being any problems at all for just any random average to get pregnant too. 

That is just what was going through my mind. Is that the only thing that you are treating and addressing or is it part of an overall care plan? Are you seeing anybody else? That type of thing. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And like she was saying, maybe a different provider, maybe a pelvic floor specialist to even just dig into what those adhesions look like or a care provider, but yeah. It can. I’m going to go find it. I was just scrolling, but I’m going to go find it. Do you remember, Julie, do you remember her name? 

Julie: You’re asking me if I remember anybody’s name?

Meagan: I’m the name person. I keep thinking it starts with a J. I’m going to find it though and I’m going to drop it in for you, AJ. Okay, “I just had a VBAC a few months ago and,” awww. “I’m so thankful for both of you.” Thank you, Allison. That’s so sweet. So, so sweet. 

Julie: Thank you. 

How to manage sciatica pain

Meagan: Congratulations! Okay, Jenn. “I’m 39 weeks. My sciatica only allows me to walk for about 20 minutes without cramping. I see a chiropractor twice a week, but other than that, what can I do to help keep my baby in a good position and get labor going?” 

I would suggest the Miles Circuit right off the bat. Miles Circuit is wonderful. You can do it multiple times a day. There are three circuits and you want to try to do it for a minimum of 30 minutes but sometimes you have to lead up to that. That would be something that I would suggest. Maybe giving it a try. Also, Spinning Babies is very much a balance factor in creating balance.

It sounds like your sciatica is not loving you right now and that is hard. That is hard, so being mindful also of being symmetrical and getting out of the car. I know that sounds really weird, but not stepping out with your left. Stepping out with your right. Trying to move out together because that separation with relaxin and things like that can cause the pelvic to shift, which then causes sciatica issues and all of those things. But I would suggest Miles Circuit. I would also suggest a massage. Getting things relaxed and soft because sometimes when things are tense, we’ve got that sciatica issue. Julie, what else would you suggest on that?

Julie: Yeah. First of all, I would say that if you are in pain, then don’t do anything. It’s okay to stop. You don’t want to hurt yourself and cause pain, tension, and stress in your body because that could interfere with your natural labor hormones. But honestly, I would think going to a chiropractor twice a week and walking 20 minutes a day is great. I think that’s great to do. If that’s all you can do, then I don’t think you need to do anything else. 

39 weeks could still be early based on when your baby wants to come, so don’t feel like you urgently have to do anything. If your provider is pushing you a little bit, then it might be time to have a conversation about what your boundaries are and where you are willing to go as far as how far along gestationally before you interfere. But yeah, what Meagan says for sure. The Miles Circuit, absolutely. Two positions in the Miles Circuit are that you are resting pretty much and just creating more space in the pelvis. 

I would say maybe if you want to try changing it up from walking, one of my favorite things is going up and down the stairs sideways two at a time. It’s kind of like walking, but you are really opening up that pelvis. So you go up with the right foot first, down with the right foot first, then switch to the left foot first, up and down. That’s creating a nice, flexible, open space and lots of equal balance like Meagan said. 

Meagan: And listening to your body on that. Listening to your body. If it’s too much, stop or just do three sets of stairs, three stairs. Just don’t push your body. Yeah. But I like that one. I actually did that with a client at a birth center where there were some stairs. We did that to get labor going and it totally helped. It was amazing. 

Julie: Yeah, I love that. That’s my favorite or curb walking. You just walk right foot on the curb and left foot off the curb and then switch with the other foot to keep that balance and stretch both sides of the pelvis. But yeah, change it up a little bit. I think you are doing great, personally.

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Going to the chiropractor that often is amazing. Realigning. But yeah, 20 minutes, maybe cut it down to 15 minutes. Just a little less before you are in too much agony. Yeah, yeah. 

Julie: It’s okay to take a rest. It’s okay to not do it one day too, or a few days, or every other day or twice a week. 

Meagan: Yeah. I would also say shaking the apples which is a Spinning Babies thing, but that actually really relaxes and softens down there and can help with sciatica pain. That’s just where you put the rebozo around your bottom and have someone sift, so you’re kind of doing this.

Julie: It’s so fun. 

Meagan: This is so hard to be on a Live because I talk a lot with my hands. If you can see this in this video, Julie is very much here and I’m dancing.

Julie: I even brushed my hair today. 

Meagan: You kind of get sifted and it really is nice for that sciatica. Okay, oh let’s see. Just listened to all,” oh my gosh, “all 198 episodes of you guys.” Oh yes, yes. I just can’t believe that we are at 200 episodes. I was telling my husband today and he was like, “Whoa. That’s a lot.” Yeah, that’s awesome. So awesome. Okay, do you guys have any other questions coming in on here? What else would you like to talk about, Julie, while we are waiting on any other questions? It’s been a minute. It’s been a minute since you’ve been on here. 

Julie: I know. It was 15 minutes before it was about to start. I was editing photos all day, so I was like, “Oh shoot, I should brush my hair and change my shirt,” because I had this frumpy little shirt on. I’m like, “We’re going to be on video today. We never usually do that.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

You don’t have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks!

Julie: So it’s just interesting. Let me think. I was just trying to think what has been bugging me from The VBAC Link Community lately. Not bugging me, but you know when you just want to grab ahold of people’s shoulders sometimes and say, “This doesn’t have to be this way. You don’t have to do this!” Or just like, “It’s okay to stand up for yourself.”

I think a lot of the things I have been seeing lately a little bit is when people talk about induction or their doctor not letting them go past a certain amount of weeks. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: That’s really kind of heartbreaking because, in America, we have a really frustrating maternal health care system. It’s really easy to get trapped in that if you’re not comfortable standing up for yourself if you don’t know that it’s okay to stand up to you’re provider, and if you don’t have an opinion about everything that you possibly can in birth. 

It’s hard when I see people going in and getting induced. We’ll see posts all of the time where people will be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m 6 centimeters. I’ve been soft for 8 hours. I was induced at 39 weeks. My provider said this and that and the other.” I just want you to know, everybody. You do not have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks in order to get a VBAC.

Meagan: You don’t. You don’t. I also wanted to talk about the opposite. On the flip side of that, I want to say that you can have a VBAC if you are induced. 

Julie: Yes. 

Nipple stimulation to induce labor

Meagan: So there are both sides where it’s like you have to be induced or you can’t go for a VBAC or it’s, “I will not induce you.” And so anyway, it’s so hard. I was just looking. We have a group member that posted a couple of hours ago and she said, “I have a question about nipple stimulation to induce labor. I’ve been trying since yesterday and I do get contractions although they might just be Braxton Hicks because they are not really painful. But as soon as I stop, the contractions also stop. Any advice?”

I just want to talk about this. In fact, I think Julie wrote a blog about this. I think, didn’t you write a blog about nipple stimulation and pumping to induce labor? I’m pretty sure you did. 

Julie: I’m pretty sure that was you.

Meagan: It might have been. I don’t remember. 

Julie: That doesn’t sound like anything I would write. 

Meagan: Well, yes. So this is something that I actually did when I was in early labor. I wanted to talk about that, but my midwife kept saying, “Hook up to the pump. Hook up to the pump.” I hated that thing. That thing was not my friend, but it worked. It helped, I should say. But sometimes it doesn’t. And so kind of similar to what this group member is saying is that it sounds like it is releasing oxytocin in your body and it’s stimulating something. Something enough to cause your body to contract or have some sort of spasms in your uterus, right? Which is a contraction whether or not it is strong.

But when you stop, it stops and so that is– this is what I tell my clients too. That is a sign that your body is not quite ready or it’s not going to respond to this type of method right now. Pumping is a really great option, but if it’s not going, I would say to pause. Maybe just give it a break and see what happens. You can try again later or follow the advice of your provider. 

I would say that it’s not bad that your body is not responding and it doesn’t mean anything like it’s not going to work ever, but it just sounds like your body may not be ready. So my advice is to maybe give it a break, try it a little bit more, try it a little bit longer and see, or maybe go have sex instead and try to release oxytocin in a different way in your body. So anyway, I just saw that. Are there other questions that have come in? Do you see any?

Julie: Yes, there is. 

Meagan: Okay.

Julie: Hi Paige, by the way! Hi Paige. Paige commented on the pumping to induce labor blog. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. 

Julie: Okay, so Tiffany, nope. Not Tiffany. It’s before that one. Tiffany, I’m going to get there. Angel said that if we want to read her post in the group that she would love some thoughts. So I found Angel’s post and I will read it. I love this. I have lots of thoughts, so Angel, if you are still watching, could you drop your location in the comments so I know? Oh, you’re in New Zealand. You already said that. 

VBA3C

Julie: She said, “I would love your opinions. I have contacted 15 midwives in New Zealand and all have said ‘no’ to a VBAC after 3 C-sections. The main reason why I don’t want a fourth Cesarean is because fentanyl is in a spinal block.” P.S. a lot of people don’t know that. When you have an epidural or when you have a spinal block, the epidural is not the medicine. It is the method of giving it into your body. An epidural has lots of different medications in it. Fentanyl is one of them. Tramadol is another one. Sometimes there are antibiotics in there with them. But a lot of people don’t know that fentanyl is in an epidural and a spinal block. 

Okay, so she says, “Tramadol is the pain relief afterward.” Tramadol is a form of morphine. That will be present in the milk which is one of the reasons why she doesn’t want it. Antibiotics afterward, milk again, and all of her children have had severe colic and reflux to the point of sleeping four scattered hours overnight until they are 16 months old. All day naps are held upright. This is physically and mentally shattering. Could there be a link between colic, reflux, and antibiotics? It may be a possibility. “I live a 100% organic, tox-free lifestyle. I don’t even take pain relief for headaches. Cesareans go against my holistic lifestyle.”

“That being said, the first two Cesareans, I believe, were medically necessary.” Cord wrapped very tightly around necks, very thin and short. Babies were wrapped up by their necks tightly and couldn’t move down, couldn’t descend. Fetal distress straightaway for the first baby, second repeat Cesarean for the same issue. The third, the cord was fine, loosely on my tummy, but the amniotic fluid was a 4. It should have been a 7. She was pressured into a repeat Cesarean in case there was the same issue as the first two. 

She said, “I just need tough love, realistic answers.” Should she just have a fourth Cesarean and do everything else holistically? 

Meagan: That’s tough. 

Julie: Yes. 

Meagan: We had a message come in earlier. I’m wondering if it’s the same person because it sounds strangely familiar. New Zealand. I can’t speak. But wow, that’s tough. That’s tough because you have good, solid reasons, beliefs, and feelings. Yeah. You know, it sounds like you are getting a lot of pushback in your area. A lot. That’s a lot. There may be somewhere underground there that would allow it, but yeah. I don’t know. It seems like you have enough reason to not do certain things. I don’t know. I would maybe. I would maybe, actually. What would you do, Julie?

Julie: Well, she says she wants tough love and I love tough love. So when I get permission for it, I will fork it out. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: So here’s the thing. First of all, vaginal birth after three Cesareans, I love, love, love that we are seeing more stories come out about VBAC after 3 C-sections. 

Meagan: Me too. 

Julie: There’s not a lot of data to support its safety or not. We have a few studies if you want to google VBAMC. We have a whole blog about the information that is available, but there’s just not a lot out there. The way we get a lot of information out there is for more people to do it, right? That might not be a risk that a lot of people are willing to take. Personally, I would probably try it because I kind of know all of the information and everything, but I don’t know because I haven’t been there.

So here’s my tough love, okay? It sounds like you have talked to a lot of providers. This sounds like the providers you have talked to do not want to support you in your choice. And so when that happens, and this is for anybody who can’t find a supportive provider not necessarily just directed at you, Angel, you have a few options. 

First is to go into labor and wait as long as you can and go to the hospital and fight and fight and fight. Out-of-hospital probably wouldn’t take you on as a patient. But depending on, I don’t know how the healthcare system is set up exactly out there. So go to the hospital, show up pushing, which I would never recommend that ideally if you could, but that’s an option for you, okay? Go into labor. Go into the hospital. Maybe get a doula. Have your partner on board or somebody there who can really heavily advocate for you and be fighting the whole time. 

Or you can birth unassisted at home, which I also don’t necessarily recommend, but there are a lot of people that can do it and do it smartly. 

Meagan: They have a lot of solid resources.

Julie: A lot of resources, have a really solid backup plan, know everything that you need to look for as far as warning signs in labor, maybe labor close to the hospital or in the hospital parking lot or something like that. Neither of those might be good options for you, but it sounds like there’s not really a good option anyway. I think also, sometimes I appreciate and envy, to some degree, the holistic lifestyle that you have. 

Sometimes, if you don’t feel comfortable fighting in the hospital or having a baby unassisted, your third option is to have a repeat Cesarean. 

Meagan: Make it really special. 

Julie: Maybe you won’t have a holistic lifestyle at that moment. ** You’re going to have to get some medications that you don’t love, right? You’re going to risk having those things *** began with the colic and maybe the upset digestive tract from the antibiotics and things like that, but that also might not be the worst thing to have ***. The only thing that you are going to be able to know is what the best choice is even though there is not a good choice. I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but yeah. 

I mean, you can create a nice, beautiful space like Meagan just said. You can ask for the spinal block and see if there are any alternatives to the fentanyl or other kinds of medication that they can put in there. You can ask for a shorter hospital stay. You can look into ways to heal your baby’s gut after the C-section. You can look into vaginal seeding which can get the baby’s gut populated with your flora from the vaginal canal which is really helpful for the baby’s microbiome and things like that. I feel really angry for you a little bit. 

Meagan: I know. 

Julie: –that the system is set up to work against you in such ways. But I feel like this is something that you are really going to have to sit with and tune into your intuition hardcore and figure out what risks you want to accept, right? Because it sounds like you are going to have to accept some whether it’s birthing with a C-section and not having the birth you want and introducing those different things to your baby, birthing unassisted without a provider present, or fighting as hard as you can in the hospital for your VBAC. 

Meagan: It infuriates me that people even have to be in this space at all.

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: The providers are so worried about supporting people doing vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans, yet they’re pushing people and making people feel like they have no choice other than to birth with no provider. I am not saying that someone who births without a provider– I’m not shaming anybody for sure, but I think it’s nice to have that supportive provider behind you, that trained, skilled provider. A lot of people that do go unassisted, I’m not kidding you guys, they dive in deep. They are prepared and that’s awesome. Good for them. Absolutely good for them. 

But it just makes me so mad that someone even feels like they are stuck in making that option. 

Julie: Yeah, I agree. Angel also asked a follow-up question if she could decline antibiotics. Here’s the thing. You can decline anything you want to decline. It’s just going to depend on what’s going to make your providers nervous and if they’re willing to provide care or not. I don’t know. I don’t know if your provider will be comfortable doing a C-section without having antibiotics available during and after the C-section or not, but that’s something that you can talk with your provider about ahead of time and see what that looks like. Or have a minimum dose or only one round or something like that. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. I love that. Sorry, my little boy, this was also part of our technical difficulties. Look at his head. Show everybody your head. 

Julie: He got konked. 

Meagan: And your arms, huh. Yeah, he fell today at recess. 

Julie: All right, let’s move on to the next question. Angel, I give you all of my love and support. 

Meagan: I wish you luck. 

Julie: Yeah, I do. Please keep us updated. Us, again. You guys, this is killing me. Meagan, you have to let me know when Angel updates you because I’m invested now. 

Gentle induction plans

Julie: Okay, what’s next? We have– oh, yes. Let’s get to Tiffany. Hi Tiffany. Tiffany M. Okay, so she said that her doctors told her that they will not allow her to go past 39-40 weeks. She was able to control her blood pressure thus far and she had hypertension in her last two pregnancies. Her doctor doesn’t want to induce because it allegedly increases the risk of rupture. 

Meagan: Your voice. 

Julie: Sorry. “They’ve been insanely supportive of VBAC but this contradicts what I’ve been seeing.” Yes. This is what we were talking about before, right? Induction. You can have a VBAC after being induced, but also you don’t want to have to be induced at some arbitrary deadline to have a VBAC. Induction does increase the risk of rupture slightly, but when it’s managed appropriately, the risk is very minimal. 

So definitely look into that. Poke your provider. I say “poke your provider”. Don’t poke the bear, right? Don’t poke the bear. Ask your provider. Talk with them and see because that might not be a provider that is that supportive. It is sad that when you have a provider that you absolutely love and there’s this one thing. There’s one thing and it sounds like this is the one thing.

Meagan: But that’s a big deal. 

Julie: It is a big deal, yeah. 

Meagan: A big deal, yeah. 

Julie: And people won’t allow you to go past 39-40 weeks. I would bust out the ACOG bulletins on VBAC and the late-term management of pregnancies or something. 

Meagan: Yeah, and induction. Yes. I was just going to say. Bring them, even if it sounds over the top because I’m going to tell you, print it all off and take it to them. 

Julie: Do it. 

Meagan: And say, “But this is what this says. This is who you are under and this is what they are saying, so why can’t we discuss a gentle induction plan?” Or, “Let’s observe and do more monitoring with all of these things and take it day by day. Take it every other day. I’ll do an NST. Let’s break it down so you’re comfortable. I’m comfortable. We’re all doing what is safe for me and baby of course.” Sometimes it sounds extreme, but it might take bringing it in and saying, “Hey. This is what I have found. Let’s talk about it. Let’s break it down.”

Are you going and getting that for her? Is that what you’re doing?

Julie: I’m responding to whatever comments. 

Meagan: Oh okay.

Julie: Obviously now, I’ll just do it verbally. So she said, “Managed how? Through a slow administration of induction medicine?” Yes, absolutely. Yes, so this is the thing. Sometimes you’ll hear the phrase “Pit to distress” where nurses will, this is a real thing. It’s sad but it is, where nurses will up the Pitocin so aggressively that it literally forces the baby to go into distress so they just do a C-section. It’s a very aggressive way to administer Pitocin. You don’t want that. You want to do a nice, slow dose. Increase it by 1 or 2 every 45 minutes to an hour. Give your body a chance to respond before upping it even more. 

I’ve seen VBAC inductions where they konk out the Pitocin by 4 every 30 minutes and before two hours happens, you’re up at the max dose of Pitocin and then the baby gets so stressed out and you have a C-section.

Meagan: And the body isn’t responding fast enough.

Julie: The body’s not responding at all because it doesn’t know what the crap is going on. It’s being slammed with Pitocin, this artificial hormone. That is not an induction that is managed well. A managed well induction is nice and slow. Start with a Foley bulb. Start with a nice, slow dose of Pitocin. Rest during the beginning of it. Give your body time to catch up. While being monitored, that’s a nice compromise and making sure everything is being tolerated well. If your body is responding, stop turning the Pitocin up at all or even turn it off after your body kicks into labor. 

Meagan: Yes. I was also going to say there is something called a “Pit holiday” where sometimes our uterine receptors get too full and overstimulated with Pitocin. It’s okay to do a “Pit holiday” and cut it in half. So say you’re at 20, let’s cut it down to 10 and see how our body responds because sometimes we can be overstimulated and our body is like, “This is too much too fast. I don’t know what’s happening.” It’s not responding and then we cut it in half, our uterine receptors empty, our body kicks into that natural labor, and then boom. We’re in labor and we don’t even need 20 mL of Pitocin, right? 

Or like Julie said, we get into this active phase and we feel like we have to keep upping the Pitocin, but if we’re getting into the active phase and we’re making progress, we don’t need to keep pushing Pitocin. And yeah, slow dose. 

Sometimes, some people, we recorded a story just now and talked about this. It’s coming out in October, so let’s talk about it right now. Sometimes we get in a space where induction is what’s needed this time, but we’re not cervically progressed enough to just put in a Foley or a Cook, right? 

So sometimes, we have to start a low dose Pit, maybe 2, 4, 6 mL max and just let it be for hours. It could take hours, you guys. I’m not kidding. Not three hours, not four, but ten plus hours it can take sitting at that slow, low dose to get the uterus stimulated enough to open just enough to get a Foley or a Cook catheter in comfortably. And then, we start from there. We work with the Foley and the Cook. Maybe you leave Pit right there or maybe they start increasing it or they just do the Pit at 6 or 8 or 10, and then just let the Foley do its thing until it falls out and then we start from there. There are so many ways that we can manage and take things slowly. 

Walking in, breaking someone’s bag of waters is not necessarily slow, managed, and controlled but that’s what a lot of providers will do also. They say, “Oh, I’ll just bring you in. We’ll just bring you in and break your water.” Sometimes, the body doesn’t respond to that and it takes hours, and then we’ve got Pitocin coming into play anyway. But then sometimes, that’s the perfect way, right? So we have to take it slowly. We have to decide what’s best for us and where we are at cervically can make a big difference of where we start. 

Julie: Where we are at cervically, I love that. 

Meagan: Yeah, where we are at cervically. 

Julie: Cervically, cool. All right. Thank you, thank you. All right, let’s move on. Christine, Christina. She says, oh I think it’s maybe more of a review. Thank you. Okay, so she says, “Listening in from South Africa.” We have lots of people from South Africa lately by the way. 

Meagan: Yay. 

Julie: I say “we” like I’m, anyways. “Been listening to the podcast, binge listening all the time and so amazed at how much I’m learning in each story and from you both. I also love how listening to everyone’s stories, especially the C-section stories have helped me process mine and helped me feel much more peace going into my VBAC at the end of this year. Thank you so much for the podcast and everything you guys are doing. I keep sharing relevant episodes with friends that are currently pregnant with their first. Things I wish I had known despite having done a lot to prepare for my first birth.”

Meagan: I love that. Thank you. 

Julie: Aww. I love that. Thank you. Yes, Meagan. Grab this and drop it into the review spreadsheet. 

Meagan: I know, will you copy and paste it for me? I’m going to read this. I pulled into the group and found a question that just was posted. We actually got a lot of recent questions here in the group and so I figured I’d throw this one in. 

Julie: Wait, but there are more in these comments, though. 

Meagan: Oh, keep going. 

Julie: Do you want me to do the comments first?

Meagan: Yes, sorry. I didn’t see it. 

What happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form?

Julie: No, you’re totally fine. There’s AJ, Juleea, and maybe more. Okay so AJ said, “Hypothetically, what happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form? I know they can’t just make you take you back, but how would you handle this if they were being forceful?”

Meagan: Now that one’s super hard because you have to be strong. You have to be really strong. But how I would handle it, I would break it down. I would ask them to break it down and talk about why. “Why are you asking me to sign this form? Am I in danger? Is my baby in danger? Are we facing death?” 

Julie: Facing death. “Will I die?” 

Meagan: Yeah, complications by dying. “Are you telling me that my baby and I are going to die right now? Because if we are having this conversation then that probably means that it’s not the case.” But yeah, break it down and say, “No. I don’t consent to this. I don’t feel comfortable with this. If this is not life threatening right now, and this is not emergent, then I want to continue on the path that I’m going.” This sounds really bad and it’s so hard because everyone can be– we’ve got people all over the world, right?

Sometimes it’s saying, “Okay. I’m going to leave. I’m going to go somewhere else.” We’ve had that. Julie and I personally have had clients say, “Okay, I’m leaving then. If we’re not going to do this, if this is not what’s going to happen, then I’m going somewhere else.” And sometimes they change their tune right there because they don’t want you to leave. They usually don’t want you to leave, so they change their tune and say, “Okay, hold on.” But sometimes, it takes leaving and going to somewhere else that is supportive. But that’s not what you really want to do in labor. 

Julie: Yeah, this is why you want to figure it out before labor starts. 

Meagan: Yeah, it’s not the space that you deserve to be in during this labor journey, but sometimes it’s fighting. It’s fighting and it’s hard. It goes back to what we were talking about with Angel. It makes me so mad that there’s not the support that everyone really deserves. We deserve the support, you guys. We’re just going in to have babies. That’s all. We’re just going in to have a baby just like everybody else, but sometimes we’re not viewed as that. 

So yeah. Any other tips, Julie? I mean, yeah. I would say breaking it down and having that conversation, but what would you say?

Julie: I mean, I would kind of say the same thing. A lot of the times, I feel like, they just have you sign all of the forms that you might possibly ever need while you are in labor at the beginning of labor because it saves on admin time and it saves on things you have to do later on and things like that. But what I would ask about the C-section form, when they’re going through that whole process is, “Do you make first-time moms sign this form?” Because I bet you, I know their answer because they don’t make every laboring person sign a C-section form, but they will if they are getting you ready for a C-section or they think that you are at an increased risk for one.

And so, we all know what the numbers are surrounding VBAC and what your chance of success is and how, if given the option to try, you are very likely to succeed. So I would just ask that. And if they say, “No,” or whatever their answer is, I would change my next question or next statement. My next statement after they answered would be that, “I will sign it if it is looking like that is going to be an option, but for now, I am planning on a vaginal delivery. Until a C-section becomes imminent, I will refrain from signing the form.” 

And then if they raise a big fuss after that, I might go to more extremes like what Meagan talked about. But I mean, this is the thing. If it’s a life or death situation and you’re not looking great or baby is not looking great and I’m not talking about, “Oh, we have some concerns.” I’m talking about, “We need to do something now.” They’re not going to care whether the consent form is signed or not, they’re going to wheel you to the operating room and save your life or save your baby’s life. 

And so I think that waiting and asking to wait until it looks like a C-section is needed or necessary is a perfectly reasonable option. 

Meagan: Yeah, I agree. Okay, so I realized that I didn’t see because I only saw one last comment from Tiffany saying that she is anti-Pitocin over there.

Releasing fear around childbirth

Julie: Yeah. Julie has one. And this is a great one for you, Meagan, too. It’s how do you release fear around childbirth? I’m 40 weeks today and I’m anxious for labor. My first arrived via C-section at 37 weeks due to high blood pressure and being breech. I never experienced any part of labor and I’m just fearing the unknown. Fearing uterine rupture, not progressing, tearing, all of it. 

Meagan: Yeah. You know, fear release is so important. So important and I think I’ve talked about this maybe on my story or maybe in other things, talking about how I thought I released everything, and then I was in labor and there were still stuff that I was processing and working through and having to go through. But a few tips that I have are actually Julie’s fear release that she did a long time ago on our YouTube and it’s a smokeless or flameless. 

Julie: Smokeless fear release except that’s used very loosely because we did create smoke at a fear release once. 

Meagan: We did. We did. We did. 

Julie: There were a lot of people releasing their fears, but yes. 

Meagan: Yes, I actually remember. That was really crazy. We did that in a VBAC class actually. 

Julie: Yeah, at my house. 

Meagan: Yeah, so I actually really, really, really love that activity and suggest it all of the time. I’ve actually done it with my own clients in labor. We’ve done it in living rooms on the floor. Obviously, it’s hard to do if you’re in a hospital at this place, you can’t just break that out. 

Julie: Light a fire, yeah. 

Meagan: But doing it, and even if it’s every night because for me, when I was preparing, I had different thoughts and being on social media didn’t help me quite honestly in that very end. And so some of the tips would be the fear release activity, going through, writing them down, burning them, and truly burning them. Burning your fears. Letting them go. Letting them go and accepting whatever is coming your way. 

Know that you have done all that you can to prepare for whatever does come your way. So that and I also suggest doing that with partners because sometimes partners’ fears will trickle in and create fear. Not that they’re meaning to do it, but they have fears and then they say things and our minds are like, “Oh, I didn't think about that.” And we have to process that. 

Another thing would be a social media break. Sometimes social media in the end is wonderful and motivating and positive and keeps us in a great place, and sometimes, it just starts creating more fear. So sometimes we think that taking a total social media break is really healthy and helps process because you can just be with your own thoughts and not with all of the other hundreds and thousands of people on social media’s thoughts because everyone is going to have an opinion. Everyone is going to have an experience. You love hearing those just like we love hearing this podcast and these stories, right? But sometimes, those feelings and those experiences can rub off on us, sometimes in a negative way. 

So if you’re noticing that some of your fears and things you’ve seen and heard on Facebook or social media, any social media platform, maybe take a break from that. I would say journaling is one of the best things I did for myself in processing fear. I was told by my OB that I was for sure going to rupture. He told me that. As I was on the table, he was so glad I didn’t have a VBAC because I for sure would have ruptured. For sure. When I heard the words “for sure”, that was very dominant in my mind and it hung with me. So when I’m laboring with my third, I was feeling that in my head. “What if I rupture? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?”

I knew in my heart that I was doing the right thing but I had self doubt. And so if that starts creeping in, voice it. I would say that my suggestion would be to get it out. Get it out. I’m sure that Julie has seen it, but as a doula, sometimes we can see our clients are thinking really hard in here and they’re maybe having self-doubt and things like that. It’s just so good to get it out. Get it out. Processing. Getting it out, talking, saying it out loud, hearing yourself say it is the first step to processing it as well. 

So if you’re doing a fear release, don’t just write it down. Write it down. Say it out loud and then burn it. That would be some of my suggestions. And then keep educating yourself. Keep educating yourself. You said tearing, rupture, and these are all valid feelings and fears. I want you to know that. These are all valid and you’re not alone. But yeah. Fearing not progressing, that’s a big fear. I know that. But again, setting yourself up with a great supportive provider who’s going to give you time, trust, and giving you the things you need to progress. That will help. Anything you’d like to add? 

Julie: No, I love that. I want to get a little bit sciency and nerdy on here. I don’t know. It’s not a secret or anything but I’ve been doing a butt load of therapy over the last year and a half and part of the things that, at some point, I learned this in therapy, but your brain, I think we all know that your emotional brain and your logical brain are in separate parts. They do not touch each other. They do not talk to each other. They do not know what each other has going on, right? 

Your emotional brain is very reactive and responsive. It’s where a lot of this anxiety comes from. It’s where your fear comes from. It’s where all of your negative feelings live, well, all of your emotions live. All of your big things. Your logical brain doesn’t know what’s going on in your emotional brain. They do not communicate with each other or else we would probably all be a lot more reasonable about our entire lives. 

In order to process your emotions and reconcile them and get rid of your fears, the best thing you can do like Meagan just said, in lots of different ways, is to get them out there. Get them out. Verbally talking about them, writing them down, talking to a therapist, talking to whoever is a nice, safe space for you. Any safe way that you can get them out of your emotional brain, then your logical brain can say, “Oh. That’s what’s going on over here.” It gives your logical mind a chance to take over and reconcile a lot of these things that are going on and put this emotional brain at ease so they’re not fighting and conflicting. They’re able to reconcile with each other. I don’t know if that makes sense. 

That’s a big thing for me which is like, “Oh yes. I need to get these things out.” Don’t stuff your emotions down or stuff your feelings down. Get them out and it helps your brain process and work through them together so that you’re not so isolated and your feelings are not so isolated from the other parts of your body that are a lot more logical. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. Thank you, Julie. 

Julie: You’re welcome. 

Meagan: Okay, let’s see. She has been thinking about taking a social media break, actually. It’s really refreshing. Worried about tearing more than uterine rupture. And yeah, tearing is scary. It is scary to think about. Lots of people do tear and it is repairable, but I would say my tip for that would be to really follow your body when it comes time to push whether it be unmedicated or medicated, really listen to your body and when that baby is crowning, just little, little nudges, assuming all is going well and that will help. 

And then really, baby position, right? We want to work on baby’s position because the more the baby is in an ideal position, the better it is for baby to come out. But sometimes we have these little things where we have babies doing this and sometimes we have babies doing this. 

Julie: Or doing this. 

Meagan: Or doing this or they come out like this and they do funny things. Tears happen, but try your hardest and let gravity help. Squatting on your side, positions that may reduce tearing and may focus on centered gravity versus a perfect spot, I don’t know the word that I’m looking for. A specific spot of gravity. Does that make sense? On your back, the bottom of your perineum has more direct pressure than when you’re squatting. It’s more central. 

So working on positions and even if you have an epidural, you can push on your side. You can push squatting assisted. It’s totally possible. But yeah, anyway. Tearing is scary. 

Julie: Tearing happens. I love that you said that. 

Meagan: Tearing happens. It does. I mean, I’m going to be honest. 

Julie: Most of the time, it’s not that bad. Most of the time. 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: I had a first degree with my first VBAC. I didn’t tear with my other two. I heard somebody say once, maybe it was on social media or something recently, but the biggest impact on whether you tear or not and how bad is your provider. 

Meagan: Yeah. We’ve got providers that just are a little rough. 

Julie: They force you to push on your back or stretch your perineum out so much. A lot of people think that helps, but it can actually increase your chance of tearing too. I don’t know. But yeah, give that a chance too, and talk to your provider seriously about not pushing on your back. Even with an epidural, you can push on your side. 

Meagan: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Love it, love it, love it. Okay, any other questions that you are seeing coming in? I love that she was like, “Yeah. People say this and then we just nod and assume they’re scheduling a C-section.” They just nod like, uh-huh. We have a ton of questions coming in on social media, so are you okay if we do a couple more?

Julie: Yeah, I just have to grab my kids in 25 minutes, so I’ve got some time. And then I want to wrap up and do a little short catch-up on how I’ve been doing since The VBAC Link. That would be fun, right? Do you think? 

Meagan: Yeah. Yes. 

Julie: Okay. 

Labor expectations 

Meagan: Okay, so this is from an Instagram follower and she says, “VBAC after a scheduled C-section. Should I expect labor as long as a first-time mom?” 

Julie: Can you say that again? You broke up just a little bit. Did she say what should I expect as a first-time mom? 

Meagan: “After a scheduled C-section, should I expect,” assuming she’s going to VBAC, “Should I expect just as long of labor as a first-time mom?” So meaning that she’s scheduled the C-section, never went into labor, never dilated, things like that. In short, yes possibly. 

Julie: Yes. 

Meagan: Yes, right? So my VBAC was my third baby, my first real labor. It was kind of freaking long. It was long. But then, we sometimes have moms that had a breech baby and it was a scheduled C-section. They go in, right? Yes. 

Julie: Pick me, pick me. I’ve got some stories. 

Meagan: Don’t share her story. 

Julie: Did she talk to you?

Meagan: No, but I’m going to talk to her. 

Julie: Okay, good. 

Meagan: So anyway, but sometimes it just goes really fast and we don’t know. So just like a first-time mom, not everyone goes long. Some people are precipitous. Some people can go really long. That can happen too and so yes, maybe is my answer. 

Okay, let’s see. 

Julie: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you go on. 

Meagan: Oh, you really wanted me to pick you. I pick you, Julie. 

Julie: Pick me. Pick me. Pick me. 

Okay, so I just want to let you know that yeah like Meagan said, you are more likely to labor for longer identical to a first-time mom, but man, sometimes this baby is going to fly out and it’s going to catch you off guard. And I have two stories, I’m not going to tell them, but I have two stories where the labors were super short. Moms got their VBACs at home on their bathroom floors because the labor just catches you off guard so much. 

Meagan: It can happen. 

Julie: Plan on going to 42 weeks. Plan on a 24-hour labor because it’s probably not going to be that long, but the more you can, if you expect that, then anything shorter is just going to be encouraging rather than planning on a shorter amount of time and having a longer thing being discouraging. That’s my advice. 

Double-layer suture versus single-layer

Meagan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, this next question is, “Does the type of suture matter much? I had a single-layer but read that double was better.” 

Julie: Oh, pick me again. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: Sorry, you’re looking at me. 

Meagan: I’m looking at you. 

Julie: All right, so here’s the thing. There used to be a belief that a double-layer suture is, because there are several layers of the uterus, right? The single-layer versus double-layer. A single-layer closure means they sew all of the layers up with one stitch, one suture. Double-layer is where they close it in two separate layers, right? So there used to be a belief that a double-layer suture was safer and would decrease your risk of uterine rupture if you go through vaginal birth, or I guess, overall because you don’t have to go for a vaginal birth to have a rupture. 

But since then, there have been several studies come out that show that there’s no significant difference in rupture rates between single-layer versus double-layer closures. So, no. It doesn’t make that big of an impact. Now, there has been one recent study that shows that a double-layer closure is optimal, but that one study isn’t very big. It’s not very credible. It’s not as big and not as inclusive as a Cochrane review and things that show that there are not really big differences. 

So sometimes, people will say, “There’s this one study in 2021 that shows this.” See, probably not in that voice, but anyways. But the majority of information that we have shows that it does not matter. However, ten years ago, people used to think that it would make a big impact. Things have shifted since then. 

Meagan: Yeah, we still have many providers that say it actually determines eligibility based on that. Like, tons. We get emails all of the time. It’s like, “Hey, I really want a VBAC but I found out that I only have a single-layer suture, so I can’t. Is this true?” So yeah. Okay, ready for the next one? 

Julie: Yeah. 

Special scars

Meagan: Low, transverse uterine incision that extends one side vaginally. Vaginally? Can I VBAC? Vaginally? 

Julie: Vaginally? I wonder if it’s a J? 

Meagan: That’s what I’m wondering. 

Julie: Except she said, “Vaginally.”

Meagan: I’ve actually never heard of a uterine incision extending all the way. 

Julie: I don’t think it can. It can go down into the cervix. 

Meagan: Yeah, the uterus is up and then it has the cervix. It goes like this. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah, and then that comes down into the vagina, but they’re separate.

Julie: I wonder if there’s some word confusion there. 

Meagan: Maybe. I will ask her, but I’m wondering if this is meaning a special scar. 

Julie: Well, yeah. 

Meagan: I’m wondering if maybe there is some confusion about a special scar and yeah. People still VBAC with special scars. They do. We have special scars on the podcast. 

Julie: Leslie’s is my favorite birth story. She goes into such detail about the data and everything about that. 

Meagan: Yes, Leslie did a home birth, right? 

Julie: Yeah, I think it’s episode 18 or something in the teens I think.

Meagan: She was really early on. So yes you can. It’s still possible. You still want to educate yourself. Just because you can doesn’t mean you are going to choose to or that you’re going to want to. 

Julie: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you. 

Meagan: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you, and so we encourage everybody to do the research, look at the education. We have some blogs. We talk about special scars in our parent’s course. We have some episodes, so there is information out there for you guys. 

Julie: Yeah, the risk of rupture is a little bit higher with special scars, so that’s something to consider too, but what an acceptable risk is to you is going to be different for everybody. So I think it goes from about half a percent to maybe 1.2% or something in that range. It’s less than 2% overall, and so is a less than 2% risk of rupture acceptable for you? You’re going to be the only one to answer that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Julie: Does that make sense? I feel like I didn’t understand the words coming out of my mouth. 

Meagan: Yeah, no. No, it made sense. 

Julie: Okay, do you ever do that? Anyways. 

Warning signs and symptoms for uterine rupture

Meagan: Yes. Okay, next question was, “Warning signs and symptoms for uterine rupture?” This is a really great question because we were talking about that, the fear of uterine rupture, and there are signs. There are, I should say, symptoms. Some of the signs and symptoms may be one, pain. Pain down there and if there’s an epidural in place, it might radiate up. The uterine rupture that I attended a long time ago, she had an epidural and they kept calling it a hot spot, but it was way, can you guys see me? Way up here in her ribs where it was hurting which is kind of an interesting spot, but it was just radiating where she wasn’t numb, where she could feel. So yeah, pain. 

And also pain that doesn’t go away. Pain and discomfort during a contraction or surge comes and is there, and then it goes away, that may be different than the pain that is there, increases with contractions, doesn’t go away, and is still very intense. Bleeding, lots of bleeding, lots of bleeding. Stall of labor, where your labor is just not progressing. Baby going up, so moving stations, but dramatically. Like your baby was +2 and now your baby is -2. Stations can be subjective, they say their baby is a 0 but now it’s a -1, and they’re saying that maybe it’s a 0 to +1. It’s kind of subjective. 

Julie: Yeah, they’re just centimeters that we’re talking about with baby’s station. It can vary from provider to provider. 

Meagan: If you think about my hand to Julie’s hand, right? Our hands are very different. They look different. I have long skinny bony dumb fingers that I can’t stand. 

Julie: Not dumb. 

Meagan: Really wide palms, so my long, skinny fingers versus someone with shorter fingers may be different. One of the number one things that providers look for, although I will say that this isn’t always the number one first symptom is fetal heart tones. Fetal heart tones that are just tanking and not recovering, that is a concern. That is a concern and that is a sign. Let’s see, what else am I missing? 

Julie: I’m trying to think. I think that’s it. 

Meagan: I think that might be all. 

Julie: Yeah, and that’s the biggest reason why they’re really particular about continuous fetal monitoring for a VBAC. But yes, if you can feel the head on top of your pubic bone, it’s kind of weird to really describe that, but I’m not going to show you. 

Meagan: You can usually see it. There’s a bulge. Baby’s not in the right spot.

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: We also have a blog on that. So, okay. Are there any other questions in the Facebook group that I’m missing, Julie? Because I’m on Instagram right now. 

Julie: Let me check. 

Meagan: This one is, “My C-section was because of failure to descend. Do I still have a chance to VBAC?” Absolutely. Failure to descend means that baby just didn’t come down. A lot of the time, that’s due to positioning, that’s due to more failure to wait and let the baby have time to come down. Just because you’ve reached 10 centimeters doesn’t mean it’s time to have a baby necessarily. Sometimes baby needs to have time to rest and descend and come down, but yes. Absolutely. You guys, on Instagram, if you’re not there, we did pull over. So if you’re over here, yay. If not, then I’m going to try and get these answered on Instagram as well. Do we have any other questions?

Julie: I didn’t see any. Yep, nope. Still no. 

Meagan: Okay, any other final questions for the eight of you that are left? We’d love to finish up, but yeah. While we are waiting for any other final questions, Julie, did you want to update everybody on how the last couple of months have been for you? 

Julie’s update

Julie: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a hard transition for both of us. Meagan is doing amazing trucking along, keeping everything going and I’m super excited to see all of the changes and stuff that are going on over on social media and the website and everything like that. I’m really proud of you. You’re doing amazing. 

Meagan: Thank you. 

Julie: And welcome the new admin, Katie, helping. She’s doing an amazing job too, it seems like so that is really great. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been trucking along with the birth photography thing. I think we talked about that on the podcast episode where I made the announcement that I was leaving, but it’s been going really good. I’ve been to several, many births since then. 

Meagan: Tons of births. 

Julie: Yeah, the last two weeks, I did five and it was actually ten days. It was five in ten days. Two of them, I was a backup for somebody, so it kind of doesn’t really count, but it kind of does. Several of them have been VBACs which have been amazing because I love still being able to be in that space and supporting people. Things are going well and I’m really excited. 

I do have, it’s a hard and separate feeling. I don’t know how to describe it because I know it was the right choice for me, but it’s also kind of sad at the same time. And so, yeah. I’m excited. I’m glad to still be kind of part of the community and being here in and out with Meagan every once in a while. I’ll pop back in to give an update and talk more. 

Yeah, I would love it if anybody wants to keep in touch. You can find me on Instagram, I’m just @juliefrancombirth. All one word, you can give me a follow or ask me questions. I’d be happy to talk or answer questions about anything, but I’m just so excited to see The VBAC Link thriving as it is. It makes me happy. I still talk about it. I still say “we” whenever I talk about The VBAC Link. I think it’s going to be a long time before that goes away. 

But yeah. I’m just proud of you for doing a great job. I’m excited. Life is just busy with other things. 

Meagan: Just other things, yeah. 

Julie: I’m able to manage all of my priorities right now instead of having everything halfway. 

Meagan: Yes, which is important. 

Julie: Yeah, it is important. What other questions do we have?

Meagan: Let’s see. “I had second-degree tears with my VBAC. Unmedicated, no coached pushing. It is still–” Oh, this is probably to comfort. “It was still worlds better than my C-section recovery was.” So yeah, like we were saying, tears happen, but it is a lot less invasive, usually those tears aren’t full tears cutting through all of the layers and things for a C-section. But yeah, I would agree. I didn’t end up tearing necessarily, but it was really tender down there. I just pushed a baby out of my vagina. 

Julie: A vaginal tear heals up way easier and faster, yeah. Certain parts of your body are more inclined to heal faster. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: But then, Tiffany asked, what’s the podcast name, and your Instagram? So obviously people listening and you replied there, but I want to say it for people listening. Obviously, if you’re listening to the podcast, you already know what the podcast name is, but it’s just The VBAC Link podcast just like our Facebook group. See? There I go again with “our.” We’re on Instagram and everywhere. The VBAC Link on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. There’s a Twitter. I don’t think we’ve tweeted in a really long time, but anywhere you want to find The VBAC Link, you just search. They are on so many platforms. Same with all of the podcast hosts, any major podcast platform or you can listen on thevbaclink.com/podcast. 

Meagan: Yeah, we’re everywhere. Instagram, all of the places. Yeah, and then like Julie said, Julie Francom Birth if you want to still follow Julie and her journey. We’re all supportive. I have a doula business. It’s Tiny Blessings Doula Services. You can see what we’re up to on the other side. But we really appreciate everybody. I think that’s all of the questions. We really appreciate everybody for coming on today, and dealing with our 34-minute delay. 

Julie: That sucked. 

Meagan: Because we knew there was one setting. We knew it had to be in the group, but we figured it out. 

Julie: But we figured it out. 

Meagan: That’s what matters. 

Julie: That’s what matters. 

Meagan: This has been really fun. So let us know if you really like this, this live podcasting, because that might be something fun that we can do here in the future in this amazing group. So yeah. As always, we love you. We thank you. Love any other reviews that you want to leave. You can email us if you have any other further questions at info@thevbaclink.com. Instagram, Facebook, you can drop it still down in this, it’s going to be I think it will be in there. So yeah. We love you. Thank you so much. And Julie, I’ve missed you. 

Julie: I know. Gosh, it’s been so weird. 

Meagan: It is. 

Julie: So weird, and yeah. All of the feelings. 

Meagan: Yeah, but I’m really happy for you and we’re having fun over here at The VBAC Link still. We’ve got Katie helping out, so you guys will probably see Katie’s husband flipping around on Facebook. 

Julie: That was fun. 

Meagan: Or her cute face. She’s a cute little blonde so you’ll see her and you’ll see more of me as well. We’re really excited. Thank you so much for being with us today and mwah. We love you a lot.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

We are so excited to be joined today by our friend, Ali Levine. You will instantly feel her bright energy as she shares her awesome VBAC story with us.

A celebrity stylist and TV personality, Ali is no stranger to being in the limelight. With her first pregnancy, she had glamorous photoshoots, went to flashy events, and made a dreamy birth plan. When the natural water birth of her dreams quickly turned into a traumatic and invasive C-section, Ali was left confused, disappointed, and depressed. 

Ali drastically changed her approach to birth with her second pregnancy. Once she began researching VBAC, Ali was determined, intentional, and never looked back.

Ali’s VBAC journey is one of a life-changing, spiritual awakening that we absolutely love and know you will love too. You can also listen to Ali’s HBAC story on Episode 264!

Additional links

Ali’s Podcast: Everything with Ali Levine 

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Julie: You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and we are so excited. We have been chitchatting with Ali today and she has a really amazing birth story to tell. We cannot wait for you to hear it. 

I am sitting here in my dentist’s parking lot. I literally just got done getting a filling. I had to rush out so that I could be on the call to listen to Ali’s story today. And so before we do that, Meagan is going to go ahead and give us a Review of the Week.

Meagan: Yes, I am. Oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat. Ali is so fun. We have just been talking to her for like, five minutes and I am just already giddy to hear her story. She has got such a fun, live personality to her. It’s going to be awesome. This review is from jovannaf1 and in parentheses, it says “Germany.” So, I am wondering if she is either in Germany or her name is German.

Julie: Ooh, that would be fun.

Meagan: I know, right? Her title is “Love it.” This is from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Thank you so much for spreading such an important message, ladies. I am currently pregnant with my third child and your podcast has given me so much help and resources to know that VBA2C is possible. I find women’s stories so inspiring. Thank you.”

And we want to thank you for leaving that awesome review and thank all of you who are listening and support us along this journey. This podcast has been absolutely so much fun. We are so excited to be able to continue offering all of the stories and continue to get submissions. We get submissions all the time and it is always just so awesome to read them even if they are not all shared. We read every single one. They are all incredible. So, thank you, thank you, thank you and if you haven’t already, please drop us a review. It means the world to us and we will read it on a podcast one day.

Julie: Do you know what is so funny? My mom, I don’t even think she knows what a podcast is still. It is so funny because sometimes when we are chatting, I will say, “You know, Mom? Look. Look at these reviews. See? I am actually helping people with what I do. I am really making a difference.” She looks at me and she smiles and she is like, “I know you are.” I am like, “No but really, Mom. Look at all my reviews!”

It’s just so fun. We really do love them and thank you guys for helping my mom know that I am actually helping people.

Meagan: Okay, so we are going to jump into this episode because like I said, you guys are in for a treat. You’re going to notice right off the bat, Ali is just such a fun person to listen to. She has had a VBAC and we just need to give her a little introduction if you would not mind, Ali. First of all, can I just tell you? Maybe you’ve heard this before. This is not VBAC-related. This is in regards to your Instagram page. I don’t know why. So, it is Ali Levine and I always read it like “Avril Lavigne” every single time. When you started to contact us, I was like, “Avril Lavigne is contacting us?!”

Julie: “He was a skater boy. She said, ‘See you later boy.’”

Meagan: I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, it is not Avril Lavigne. It is Ali Levine and, is it LaVINE or LaVEEN?

Ali: No, it’s LaVEEN. It is so funny because I have had this said to me several times. People will be like, “So, do you know her?” I am like, “I think she is a distant cousin.” Same with Adam. You know what I mean? It’s so funny. I have actually styled Adam back in the day when I was styling different celebrities. It is just so funny when people say that to me because I crack up. So, yes, no. I am not Avril Lavigne, but I bring the same kind of flavor, I think, as she does.

Meagan: You are so awesome. Yeah, it is just so funny. It is just how it reads. It just automatically goes to Avril Lavigne in my mind, but you are so awesome. We think you are awesome. And, yeah. As you were saying, you are a celebrity stylist, which, how cool is that? Motherhood, fashion, lifestyle expert, and TV personality. I mean, you are going to hear it coming out right here. You are going to see it on her Instagram page. If you haven’t, go right now. It is @alilevinedesign. So, it is @alilevinedesign. Go check her out. It is super fun. I think you actually have a couple, like Everything with Ali Levine, right? Like, you have a couple of pages.

Ali: Yes, that’s my podcast.

Meagan: That’s your podcast.

Ali: Everything with Ali Levine is my podcast, yes.

Meagan: Yes. Ali Levine. So, go listen to her. It is just so fun. So, okay. I am just going to read your bio. Is that okay?

Ali: Whatever you want.

Meagan: Whatever I want, all right. So it says, “Ali Levine believes that no matter where you roam, from the laundry room to the red carpet, authenticity is your superpower and confidence is your best accessory.”

I love that. The week your podcast goes on, we need to make a little word blurb and put that and put your name in that. It’s amazing.

Julie: I can make a shirt. I want to make a shirt.

Meagan: Do it. Let’s do it. “The New York-hotshot-turned-Hollywood style maven delivers a real, raw look at her own motherhood journey amid the treasures she’s uncovered in the universal search for authenticity, spiritual wholeness, and happiness.”

Seriously, so excited to have you. I know that you have two beautiful daughters. We are excited to hear about both of their births. So, before I take up all the time ranting and raving about how awesome you are, let’s let everyone hear about how awesome you are from you and your awesome story.

Ali: Aw. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we started recording-- truly, I am so honored to be here tonight. I listen to you guys literally every day still, now. I was listening my entire pregnancy. My doula, Stacey, has given your podcast to so many different clients when she is like, “Hey, this client is struggling. What should I have them listen to?” And I am like, “Have them listen to The VBAC Link.” You guys have been such a godsend, truly. 

Especially during the pandemic, and everything that was going on with my birth, and plans changing every day, the only solid piece I had was with you guys. I literally had you in my ear as much as humanly possible to keep putting the intention that I was going to get my VBAC and I did with my second daughter. It was so freaking magical and healing. It makes me cry still.

Meagan: Well, I love it because one of the things that I feel sometimes weird about even though it’s my own podcast is, I still go back and listen to all the stories. I am not having babies anymore. I am not preparing for a VBAC, but all of these stories are just so inspiring. And honestly, they help me because I can send these to my clients. So many of these are powerful and educational for my own clients, so I am excited to hear that both you and your doula are still with us. You’re still hanging out with us even though you rocked your VBAC and, yeah. We are just so excited that you are with us.

Ali: Well, thank you. I agree with you completely and if there is anything I have learned from my social media and my own podcast, it is that beautiful authenticity, that sharing of that real and rawness, and being able to be vulnerable and share all of that. Not only is it so healing and beautiful for the individual, but it is so empowering for the other women listening and for the moms that are going through it. It is like, we are all there for each other and in that sense, we are all really going for our VBAC and when you get to hear these other stories-- like, during my pregnancy, I remember finding you guys randomly when I was searching for VBAC support and I was listening. I just started falling in love with the stories and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I could picture myself in that position. Oh my gosh.” And to feel like I could do it, it was such an empowering feeling. So, kudos to you guys, truly, for this show.

Meagan: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It has been so rewarding. It truly has.

Ali: That’s amazing.

Julie: Yeah, thank you. It is fun to come full circle, where we have people who were listening to the podcast and are on the podcast. I just feel like it is really cool when you were listening to the stories, and you were getting inspired by the stories, and then you get to share your story now and inspire other people. Then, we have this domino effect where people are listening to the podcast, and then sharing their stories, and then others are listening to their stories and then sharing their stories. It is just this really cool community and platform that we have built. It just makes me really happy.

Ali: No, I love it. And you can hear that with you guys. Like, truly. Every time you listen, you hear that happiness and how much you guys celebrate everyone who is on and their stories and it is like-- something that I have learned with my second daughter is, birth is truly beautiful. It is something that I honestly with my first, especially after having quite a traumatic C-section, I really was in a fear-based place. 

I am so grateful that I switched from that fear to that love, and that transformation, and all that because it really is. As intense as it can be, the more you can be intentional, the more you can empower yourself, no matter what the circumstance, it is transformational and it is life-changing and so many ways. Not just in, of course, the fact that you give birth, but in my opinion, you are reborn. There is a spiritual awakening, at least for myself. It has just been so magical for me to get to really, really dive into it. And so, I am excited to share it with you guys.

Meagan: Well, we are excited to hear it.

Ali: All right, so going back to Amelia. When I got pregnant-- we talked about the fact that I am a celebrity stylist and I do a lot with television and Hollywood and all of that. And so, when I got pregnant, I had just come off of being on a show on Bravo, so people nationally knew my pregnancy. A lot more eyeballs were watching my pregnancy than I expected them to be and watching my journey, which was really amazing and cool, but also a lot of pressure at the same time.

I really didn’t realize how much it played into my actual pregnancy and birth. When I was in the midst of thinking about what I wanted to have for a birth plan, I was of course very much in the mindset of like, “I really want to have a natural birth, and I want to have a tub birth, and I want it to be beautiful, and I want flowers, and I want this, and I want that.” I am a more natural person in general in how I like to do things. I like to seek out natural options before I go to something else. And so for me, it felt like it really aligned and it was what I wanted to do.

I honestly didn’t really do my research or homework into what that looked like. I got a midwife. I got a doula, but I didn’t do research beyond that. I didn’t really look into what it potentially could be. It was more just like I made sure I had my team and I made sure I had a backup doctor with that team in case things didn’t go that way just to make sure I was safe, and that was it. I didn’t really do much research I guess I would say.

And so, once it came time for me when I went into labor-- First off, I will share that I was getting really fed up with everybody asking me when I was going to pop when I was going to have the baby. My parents were sitting and looking at me like this balloon that was going to pop and I am like, “Oh my gosh. It is okay. I am fine. They checked. The baby is fine. I am fine.” But every two seconds it was like, “Why haven’t you gone into labor? How come she hasn’t come yet?” I was like, “I don’t know.” 

It was a lot of pressure, honestly. I got so fed up at around-- I think it was at 40 weeks and I said to my husband, “I can’t deal anymore. If one more person asks me, I am going to lose it.” So, I took castor oil, which I don’t advise.

Meagan: I did that with my first birth too.

Ali: Did you? Okay.

Meagan: Yes, and everyone was asking me the same questions. I had one coworker who was like, “Do I need to get you a wheelbarrow to wheel you around the office?” I am like, “Shut up.”

Ali: Right. Nobody wants to hear that. It is funny for a minute and then you are like, “Please, just let me be because clearly, I am uncomfortable, and I am trying to be at peace with this, and I am trying to allow my baby to come when they are supposed to come,” which, you know. It is easier said than done. And then you’re sitting there and they are like, “Well, you haven’t popped yet.” 

My mom was like, “Well, I had you and they had to induce me. Well, what if that is what you need? What is going on?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh. Let’s just leave all of the pressures off of me please and let my body do its thing.” I couldn’t deal.

So, I took castor oil. It did definitely jumpstart something because all of a sudden, five hours later, my water broke and I was going into labor. But I went into pre-labor and pre-contractions because of the castor oil. And so, we think that now, obviously in hindsight, that it probably pushed her too fast and she wasn’t ready. Because first off, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I went into my birth center to my midwife and I wasn’t really dilated past even a 3, and so she sent me home and was like, “You know, go home and go to sleep. Try to do this and try to do that.” Of course, I couldn’t do any of those things. I was losing it at home trying to stay calm and wait for her to come. We went back to my birth center and then I was finally progressing a little bit more. I still wasn’t active, but she took me because I think she felt bad that I was struggling.

And so, we go to my midwife’s birth center and we are there. Hours of really hardcore, manual, full-blown natural labor, really doing the work. Squatting, on the toilet, on the ball, in the shower, in the bed, on all fours, just constant, constant, and it was a good day of full-blown movement trying to get my body to do what I needed to do, and progress, and make things happen.

I finally started getting too active and she was like, “All right. Let’s transition you to the tub so that we can get you ready and get you comfortable if that’s where you want to be. I got in the tub and I immediately felt super sick, and super overwhelmed, and dehydrated, and also nauseous. I threw up. She was like, “All right. Let’s get you out.” So, I got back on the ball. I got back on the toilet and I felt awful.

So then, they lowered the water in the tub and everything. My doula was putting a washcloth on me, and essential oils, and trying to calm me. I could feel that I just felt off. We went back into the tub because I told her that I really wanted to give birth there and so she was like, “All right. Let’s breathe, and take our time, and see where we are.” At that point, I was in the tub and I was almost at 30 hours of being in labor. She was like, “You know, you are only at the beginning of active labor. I think I was technically at 6-6.5, something like that. I wasn’t fully progressing. She was getting concerned that things weren’t really fully progressing and I was really losing my stamina and my strength because I had been pushing and moving for so long.

She was like, “Let’s talk about interventions.” Of course, being someone who did want natural and had a “birth plan” and all that, I wanted nothing to do with that. I was like, “No, no, no. I want to just stay here. Let me just progress. Leave it alone.” She stepped out of the room, my midwife, and made a phone call to the backup doctor at the hospital to let him know what she was thinking. I guess, of course, they advised each other that I should go in. 

And so, they got me out of the tub. That was a whole scene in itself. That could have been on a freaking reality show. It was like, getting me out, my parents are in the waiting room. We asked them not to be there, and they’re pacing, and they’re flipping, and everything is a mess. Everyone is flipping out. “Am I okay? What is happening?” It was just so much pressure.

I get into my husband’s truck. I am fine. I am in active labor, but I am totally fine. Baby is safe and I am fine. We drive over to the hospital. I get there and they check me in and I get to my room. They checked me and they were like, “All right. You progressed a little bit more, but she is stuck in the birth canal at this point. So we are going to give you some Pitocin to ramp things up and try to move her.” 

They put me on-- I think it was 15, I think, is the highest you can be? I didn’t go from a small amount. It was like literally, they cranked me up and I went from full-blown natural-- it was awful. I went from full-blown natural at the birth center in the dark with my music, with my oils, all of that to bright lights, fluorescent, hospital, screaming, panic, everybody in your shit if you will. It was just crazy and then it was like oh, and then this Pitocin that was cranked to no end. 

I couldn’t handle it. I immediately was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t breathe. I feel uncomfortable.” I’m like, crying. I was really struggling. So then they were like, “All right. Well, let’s give her an epidural.” They cranked that all the way up. I went from feeling like I couldn’t handle it to I couldn’t feel anything and then I felt super sick.

I threw up again. I just felt awful. I just remember in that moment feeling so down and feeling like I failed at what I was trying to do. I remember even now, that heavy moment of, “What just happened? Why am I here? What is all of this? This is nothing of what I wanted. I was so overwhelmed.” 

And so fast forward, I got to 40 hours. We spent 10 more hours at the hospital. We got to 40 hours. My doctor came in and was like, “All right. Well, at least you have progressed now to basically complete. We are going to give this a go and have you really push and make this happen.” I am like, “Okay.” And so I am pushing, but I really couldn’t feel it to be honest. The epidural, they said, was supposed to wear off, but it was like I really could not-- I just could not feel it.

They were like, “Push. Push. Push.” I am pushing. I am pushing. They are like, “Push harder.” I am pushing as much as I could. She comes down. I obviously, really couldn’t see her, but everybody else could and they were like, “But then she shot back up in the back birth canal,” which I obviously didn’t even know was a thing. 

And so, she shot down, and then she shot back up. Then they were like, “All right. We are going to go again.” She shot down again. He went to grab her and she shot back up. I just remember my doctor looking at me and being like, “Okay. We are going to take a break and then I will be back.”

He went and actually said to me, “I am going to go get dinner and then come back.” At first, I was like, “Oh, that is so rude,” but my doula and midwife advised me because they were still there with me. They advised me that the reason he did that was to buy me more time because if he wasn’t present technically there shouldn’t have had me had a baby without him unless it was an emergency.

So they were like, “He is buying you time.” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t realize at that time that there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made. What are we going to do? What are we going to keep trying? Are we going to do something else? C-section hadn’t even been in my mind because I hadn’t even been talked to about a C-section, prepped around a C-section, like nothing. So I was not thinking that at all. 

I was just thinking, “We are just going to wait longer. I am going to rest and we are going to go again.” Everybody leaves the room. My husband sits with me and he turns to me. We were at almost 42 hours at this point. He looks at me and he goes, “Don’t you want to meet her now?” I started bawling. I am like, “Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Of course, I want to meet her now, but I have done so much work. I want things to go the way I want them to go. They weren’t already going the way I wanted them to go when we were at the birth center.”

He’s like, “I know, but you are so tired. You have been such a warrior. Don’t you just want to meet her and let yourself rest? We will have her.” Of course, I burst into tears and I was just like, “Fine, I guess.” 

I just let go. I remember being so upset and feeling so defeated in that moment because I got to those 42 hours and I had gotten to basically complete. So much had played out and I was convinced that “Okay. At least I was going to have her vaginally in a hospital.” And then it was just like, “Nope.” 

I get rolled Into the OR and have my C-section. Thank God, it was so fast. It was probably not even 10 minutes. They were really, really quick and she was right there. I have to say that they did an amazing job and I was so grateful. But it was just so not obviously what I envisioned or imagined. I just remember after getting back in the room and the initial shock and then putting me with her and everything, I just remember feeling like, “Oh my god, I am so happy to have her in my arms,” but I just felt like I had failed and my body had failed.

It was such a debilitating feeling. I felt so numb in me, even though I was so blissfully happy about her. It was like a wild rollercoaster of emotions, you know? Because I was so happy to have her and so excited to finally hold my baby, but at the same time, I was almost dead inside. Like, what happened? Why did things play out like that? What is that? Do you know?

For those that have followed my story, you know shortly after having my first daughter, I had pretty heavy postpartum depression. I do believe a lot of my birth played into that. When I got pregnant again with Arley, I really made the intention of, “I really don’t want to go through that again if I don’t have to. I really want to be smart about doing my research this time around my birth. What can I do to prepare my body? How can I be more intentional internally and not externally?” 

Because I felt like with Amelia-- again, I was a new mom. I had no idea what I was getting into, so to me, it was like, “Oh, you just give birth. No big deal. Everybody does it.” I didn’t prep my body. I didn’t do anything. The only thing I did was take maternity photoshoots that were glamorous. I just did all of the checkboxes of the things in the external world and all the glam. 

With Arley, I was like, “No.” I am going to be so intentional about what I am going to do, what I need to do, and do my research and talk to my birth communities around me now that I know them from sharing my experience and everything with Amelia.

Luckily, I had so many incredible people around me who advised me to get a chiropractor right when I got pregnant to get my body aligned. So I found a chiropractor who specialized in VBACs and aligned with her right at three weeks when I was pregnant. I stayed with her my entire pregnancy. I found people who could do labor stimulation massage for later in the game and a doula that had also been a part of VBACs. Just all of these different entities that I didn’t realize were so important. 

And then most importantly, when I got pregnant with Arley, I went to my regular prenatal doctor, and the first thing she says to me after “Congratulations” is, “Okay, now let’s schedule your C-section.” I looked at her and I said, “Whoa. First off, I am just swallowing the fact that I am pregnant again. Secondly, I don’t want to do a C-section.” She was like, “Well since you already had one, I am advising you to have one.”

I was like, “Well, with all due respect, I know that I can have a VBAC.” She was like, “Well, I really don’t advise it. I really think you should have a C-section.”

Julie: Wow.

Ali: Isn’t that wild? That was my reaction. 

Julie: Like, right off the bat, even. Not even discussing anything.

Ali: Nope. No discussion. It was like, “I know better. Here is this information.” Gave me a folder, the whole nine yards of my risks, the whole thing, the whole fear-mongering. Thank God I had so many people around me in the birth community from Amelia that they had all told me that just wasn’t true and that the success rate was way higher than people realize and discuss. It was funny because I actually learned about VBACs when I was on Berlin’s podcast. I’m spacing on his name. Dr. Berlin.

Meagan: Elliot? Elliot Berlin?

Ali: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so, I was on his podcast and he wanted to share my birth story with Amelia. After I was on it, he turned to me and he goes, “You know, you could still have another baby vaginally.” I was like, “No, I can’t.” He was like, “Yeah, you can.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “It’s called a VBAC. They happen all the time.” He was like, “It has nothing to do with the way--” and this and that. 

It was like this reality of what had been told to me and preached to me all of a sudden just burst in front of me. It was like, “Wait. Unlearn everything you were just told and pay attention. Zoom in to what you’re being told now and learn.” And so, I did. Once I got pregnant with Arley, I knew I wanted to at least attempt a VBAC and get myself aligned body-wise, intentionally, mind-wise, soul, everything to do that. 

Once that doctor said that to me, I was like, “Well, I am sorry but I am not going to stay with you because you are not for me if you are not going to at least try to let me have a VBAC.” And so, I parted ways with her. I was so grateful she showed me her true colors right from the beginning because I know some doctors can bait and switch from what I have heard. She let me know right from the beginning and so then I started reaching out to different doulas and people to give me references. I landed on Dr. Brock who is in Los Angeles who is literally known as “The VBAC King”. You guys will appreciate that.

That’s literally what people call him. “The VBAC King”.

Julie: I want to know more about The VBAC King, but it’s okay.

Ali: Totally fine. It’s all good. So actually, it is funny that you guys bring up Elliot because Elliot and he have actually worked together in several births. Because a lot of people in LA go to him, if a baby is breech, they go to Dr. Brock because he is the only doctor known in Los Angeles to turn a breech baby. He is amazing. 

And so, I went to him. I asked for a referral to go see him because he is really hard to get into. I sit with him and I am twiddling my thumbs when he comes in. I am pregnant and he is like, “What is going on with you? Why are you so nervous?” I remember looking at him and I said quietly to him, “I want to discuss a VBAC.” He is like, “What?” “I want to discuss having a VBAC.” And he is like, “What is there to discuss?” He was like, “I did three this morning. What is the problem?”

Meagan: Oh my gosh! Yeah.

Julie: Best feeling ever.

Ali: It was the best feeling ever. I looked at him and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s it?” Because I felt so shamed and wronged with that other doctor. And so, when he was so open to me and he was just like, “Yeah.” The nurse was so funny that was in there. She was taking my stats and she was like, “He does them literally every day and sometimes three times. It is not a big deal.” 

I was like, “Oh my gosh.”He was like, “Yeah. We will just monitor you. We are going to check your scar and make sure everything is together. As long as everything looks good, we will plan to do it, and if things down the road change, we will have a conversation.” He was like, “But I don’t see why not. You look like a great VBAC candidate.” He was all for it day one. I was so grateful that he was so supportive and his team and everything. 

And so fast forward, he checked my scars several times and everything looked good, thank God. Baby was growing great and everything was happening. We get to when the pandemic hits. The world changes. I went from, “Okay, you can’t have your doula” to “Now, you can’t have your husband at the hospital.” It was becoming really intense for me because here I am, I really want to go for my VBAC and I want to have my support system, and now I’m not going to even have anybody. 

How is this going to work? Am I going to be able to have my VBAC? I am not going to lie, I was in a lot of fight-or-flight mode. I started researching home birth and HBACs at home. I started really doing research and talking to midwives and other people who were home doctors in case my husband couldn’t be with me. Because to me, it was one thing not to have Stacey, my doula, but it was another not to have my husband. I just felt like he had been through so much with me through Amelia that I couldn’t imagine not having him with Arley. 

Thank God, I think Arley knew. She held on because she literally came right at 42 weeks and they had just opened the hospitals back up a week before. And so, my husband was allowed to come and be with me. I really felt like she held out for him. But it was funny the week before, actually a week and a half probably before, Dr. Brock, as great as he was, he is still a doctor. Near the end, especially with the pandemic and everything, he was just like, “Well, you know, you’re getting close and you still haven’t gone into labor. Maybe we should just induce.”

I was like, “No. I don’t want to. I really want to give my body a shot.” He kept pushing me. He was like, “Well, let’s do a sweep. Let’s do this. Let’s do that.” I finally got a sweep a week before. Nothing happened. It was just painful for me. He was like, “All right.” We did another sweep a few days later and nothing was happening. He was like, “Let me just induce you. Let me just--” and I was like, “Dr. Brock. With all due respect, you have been so supportive of me through this whole experience. Please, just let me get to the final mark, and if things don’t happen then, then fine. We will do it.” 

I think it was maybe four or five days before and he kind of, not went back on his word, but I think he had moments because all of this was going on with the pandemic. He was just like, “Look.” He was like, “I am going to schedule the induction. It is going to be tomorrow,” and this and that. I remember leaving there and I felt really powerless. I was really upset and I came home. It was my eight-year anniversary with my husband. I turned to him and I was like, “I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to go in tomorrow.” He was like, “All right. Let’s talk through it.”

He is very logical and he was like, “Let’s talk through it. What’s going on? Why don’t you want to?” I just told him, I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. I have worked so hard to be so intentional around this birth from my chiropractor to finding a supportive doctor, to the right doula, to even different workouts, meditation, The VBAC Link podcast, just all kinds of things that I really surrounded myself with material-wise and tool-wise.” So I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t align.”

He was like, “All right. Well, if you feel that way, then don’t go.” I called my doula and she was like, “Look. At the end of the day, you would be your own advocate. Everything is good with you and the baby. They run tests. Everything is cool. So at this point, it is really just a waiting game. So if you really don’t want to, then you voice that. You call and you cancel and you cancel the induction.” 

I remember calling Cedars-Sinai and canceling. I called and they were like, “Oh, we don’t even have your name on the list.” I was like, “Oh.” They were like, “But we will let Dr. Brock know.” It was funny because it was such a build-up to call. I felt like I was being a bad kid in school. So I was so nervous to call and cancel. I was dancing in my room for hours to call. I finally called and they were like, “Oh, you’re not even on the schedule.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Well, just let them know I am not coming.”

The next day, I got a call from my doctor and Dr. Brock is like, “Come in. I want to do a nonstress test on you.” So I go in, everything is cool. He was like, “All right, so you pushed against me.” He was like, “Message received. You’re not doing it.” I am like, “No. I am not.” And he is like, “All right.” He is like, “It is fine.” He is like, “Everything is good. Tests are good. I just thought you’d want to have her birthday. Don’t you want to have her already?” I am like, “I do want her here, but I want her here on her terms. If there is anything I learned from my first birth, it’s not about me. I don’t want to do it on my terms.” He was like, “Okay, fine. It is fair.” 

So then he was like, “If you don’t go--” because now, I was at the end of 41 weeks and 8 days or whatever. You know, when you get close to 42. He was like, “This weekend if you don’t go, on Monday, we are going to schedule the induction.” I was like, “Fine. That is fair.”

So that weekend came and it was Friday. I wasn’t getting any kinds of signs of going into labor. I was getting a lot of that prodromal labor that you guys always talk about which is the start-and-go, and you actually contract, and you think you’re in labor, but then it stalls out. That was happening for weeks to me. I was like, “What is this?” It kept happening and happening. 

That happened again on Friday and it just like-- nothing. My doula sent me to get acupuncture. I did that to stimulate things. That actually, I think, really helped. I did that Friday and I did that on Saturday. I went back-to-back and it really stimulated things and moved things around, I think, from what I could feel. My husband was also doing acupressure with my points at home that she had shown me.

At this point, my doula had said to me, “Okay. In my opinion, I feel like there is something more to this than your body.” It reminded me of one episode, well, many episodes I listened to with you guys, but there was one specifically where you guys really hone in on fear releasing. She was like, “I really feel like there’s something going on with you and we need to work through it.” So we did a recording of my birth story of Amelia‘s birth with her, just her and I recording everything, getting it out. She was like, “Okay. Now it is out. Let’s process it. Let’s release it. Wrap it up in a pretty bow and that’s it. We are going to move past it.” I was like, “Okay.” 

We did that on Friday. And then, we did some more rebozo and this and that. We met up outside at a park and everything and talked things through. Saturday came and she was like, “All right. I know you are getting close and you are getting concerned.” She was like, “What else can we do to help you release this?” I was like, “I don’t know. I am just so afraid of a C-section. I am so afraid of this. I am so afraid of that.” She was like, “All right.” She goes, “When you get home, you are going to write down--” And I remember learning this from you guys. She said, “You are going to write down what you told me you listened to on The VBAC Link, which was to write down your fears and release them.” She was like, “I want you to do that because I feel like there is more to this.” 

And so, I went back and listened to a bunch of your guys’ episodes and I wrote down on pieces of paper all of the different things I was afraid of. Getting an induction, stalling out, getting a C-section, getting stuck in the birth canal, all of the things. Being on Pitocin, getting an epidural, all of the things I was truly afraid of and I burned each and every one of them. There was such a relief when I burned them. I felt it in my energy and in my body. I started crying. I just felt so good.

So then, my husband and I took a walk with our toddler, Amelia. We went around the block and we were just talking and he started talking me through stuff. He was like, “What do you think it is?” I was like, “I don’t know. I think I’m just afraid to wind up in another crazy, traumatic birth.” He was like, “Okay. And if God forbid, that happened, what is the worst thing? We come home. You heal. We have our second daughter. It is the four of us as a family. The overall things are fine and we have our girl.” This and that, you know, putting things into perspective for me. I was like, “Yeah, no. You are right.” 

He is a golfer, a really good golfer. And so, he was walking me through all the strategies for a big tournament and comparing it to getting ready for a birth of the mentality and this and that, but actually, it was really helpful for me. So we come home and we have dinner and he was like, “Let’s hang out, and just stay up late, and have a good time.” So we have a little dance party with Amelia. We are playing music videos and just having a good time, dancing and laughing. And then, I go to lay down in bed. I turned on my essential oils and I do a little more acupressure. I say a little prayer. I got in bed and I put meditation in my ears and get the room really dark. I am meditating. I am like, “I am going to go into labor. Things are going to happen. Things are going to happen.” I wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night, nothing is happening. I am getting a little crushed. But I am like, “No. I am going to let it go. Let it go.”

I started getting hungry and I was like, “I’m going to go downstairs for a snack.” It was probably around 1:30, maybe 2:00. I start walking down my stairs and I feel this cramp and I am like, “Ooh,” and then I feel it again. I am like, “Ooh.” I get down and I am like, “Ooh, ooh, ooh,” and I can’t. I get down on my knees and I can’t get up.

Julie: I love that.

Ali: I am like, “Oh, maybe I’m not going to have a snack.” And so, I crawled up my stairs and I’m like, “Oh, okay. Could this be?” I honestly didn’t believe it because I had had so much prodromal labor. I had had so much start-and-go that it was like, “Oh, here we go again.” So I am just like, “Okay. I am just going to go lay back down.” I am crawling, but as I am crawling, it is getting more and more intense. More tightening and I am barely able to crawl. And so, I get up my stairs. I get in my room. My husband is sleeping and snoring. I am like, “Okay. I’m not going to wake him because I have told him so many times that this could be it and nothing is happening.” So I am like, “I am just going to chill.”

So I call my doula. I could barely get the words out because I am in quite a bit of squeezing pain, feeling the surges, and she was like, “All right. Do me a favor. Draw your bathtub. Get in the tub. Put in a little bit of your oils and call me back. Let me just hear your breathing.” So I turned the tub on and I had this overwhelming feeling while I was sitting there in my room, just talking to myself of going into Amelia‘s room. I didn’t know why. 

So I crawled into her room and I opened the door and crawl in. She is asleep. I crawl into her chair. I’m sitting there and I start bursting into tears. I am hysterical out of nowhere and I just start babbling and I am like, “I love you. I hope I can be a good mom when I am a mom of two. I have made such an amazing relationship between the two of us so far. I don’t want to fail you.” I am just pouring my heart out. She is passed out. I am just crying and crying, just sharing my heart with her and my fear of being a mom of two. I don’t want to let her down.

And then I remember I said to her, “Okay. I think your baby sister is coming. So the next time I see you, she is going to be here.” I was hysterical. Then I crawl back out, crawled into my tub. I think this was maybe 2:30 or 3:00 at this point. I get in my tub and I call my doula. I start breathing and she was like, “All right. Let’s do some meditation.” I had also done some HypnoBirthing between learning for Amelia’s birth and then for Arley’s birth. So I am doing HypnoBirthing in the tub. She is guiding me. My contractions were 11 minutes apart, so they weren’t that close. So she was like, “Okay. We are just going to let you stay in the tub. Meditate. Stay in your zone. Let’s see what happens.”

Shortly after, not even an hour, she was like, “Okay. You are eight minutes. You’re seven. Oh, okay.” She was like, “Okay, Ali. You need to wake Justin up. You are getting to be close to six minutes apart. You have got to get ready to go.” I was like, “Wait, what?” You know, because I was so in the zone at that point. I wasn’t even listening to her count. I was so in my zone in the tub, in the darkness, meditating, really bringing the affirmations of having my VBAC and talking to Arley. I was just so in it, more so than I think I even realized I was. 

And so she was like, “You need to get out. You need to get up. You need to get to the hospital.” Justin, of course, doesn’t know. My husband doesn’t hear me. He is sleeping and snoring. I am screaming from the bathtub and he doesn’t hear me. I’m like, “Babe. Babe! I am in labor. We have to go to the hospital.” He doesn’t hear me, so my doula calls him and wakes him up. He is like, “What is going on?” She is like, “Ali is in labor. You have got to get ready to go.” 

He goes into the bathroom and of course, he is making fun of me as he usually does and his sarcasm. He is like, “Oh, I hear a ghost or something.” I am like, “Oh my god.” He literally is like, “Oooh. Ooooh. What is that noise? Ooooh.” I am like, “Ha, ha. That is so you.” I am like, “Come over here and squeeze my hands. I am losing my shit.” That is his personality, by the way. 

He gets me out. We are getting everything ready to go and getting everything in the truck to leave. My doula ended up coming down to make sure I was okay, but also because my friend was supposed to be here for Amelia had I gone into labor in the middle of the night, but wasn’t picking up her phone because they probably just thought, “Oh, I am going to hear my phone go off.” And so, my doula came rushing out so that we could leave so that somebody could watch her since we couldn’t bring her, especially with COVID and everything.

She comes and she sees me off. I get in the truck and I am in full-blown active labor. I am transitioning. I am shaking. I’m convulsing. I am screaming. I’m trying to stay zen. I am screaming while I am meditating. This whole thing in his truck. We arrive there. I am screaming when we get out of his truck. They pull up. They bring the wheelchair. I won’t forget. They put me in a wheelchair and they were shoving this mask in my face. I am screaming through the mask. I am trying to rip the mask off because I’m screaming. It was a whole thing.

I get into the room. They get me in and my doula was immediately on my FaceTime. Stacey was like, “Okay.” Thank God for her. She was like, “Turn the lights down. Let’s get it to be zen for her again. Get her out of the bright lights. Let’s calm things down. Justin put out her crystals. Let’s get her intention cards up. Get the little lights up.” Stacey is orchestrating everything from FaceTime. Justin is getting everything together and I am sitting there and breathing through. I am still natural at this point. I am just breathing through my contractions as much as I can and screaming at all of that. 

They checked me and I am 6.5. They’re like, “All right. Well, you’re definitely active and ready to go. You are progressing, so we are going to let you progress.” I think I got to almost a 7, or out of 7, and I really was having a hard time. I was really having a hard time breathing. It was getting really intense. Stacey was like, “Look. If you want to get an epidural, just get the epidural.”

But, I had so much fear around getting an epidural because of Amelia‘s birth. I was like, “I don’t want to. I am too afraid. I don’t want to get stuck. Let me just keep going.” But I wasn’t fully progressing because I was struggling. I was like, “Okay. I’m going to get an epidural.” Luckily at Cedars-- I know some hospitals don’t have this, but Cedars does. I had been advised by a couple of other doulas to get a walking epidural if I could, even though I wouldn’t be walking anywhere, obviously, because of the world, but I could walk in my room. 

And so, I got a walking epidural and for me, that was just enough to take the edge off, but not enough to numb where I could walk around and I could be on the ball. I could do hip exercises on the side of the bed. I could get on all fours. I could keep switching positions. Even when I was in the bed, I had a peanut ball being switched between my legs. I was moving constantly. I was never still. I think that was a really big game changer and helpful for me when it came to progressing because shortly after, I was at complete.

We arrived at the hospital around 6:00 a.m. and by noon, I was complete. It was pretty fast for me compared to Amelia. It was like, “Oh, wow. This is happening. I have got to complete.” The doctor comes in. Dr. Brock is like, “All right. You are complete, but you are not--” I forget the stations when you are at the last station, but you’re not fully there where the baby can come out. What is that called?

Julie: Yeah, like +2 or +3 station.

Meagan: Yeah, or even +4.

Ali: Yes. Yeah, whatever it was, like the lowest one. I was almost there, but I wasn’t there yet. He had said that. I was like, “Oh, okay.” He was like, “But don’t worry. We are going to figure out getting her down. Let’s get you to move more. Let’s do some more pushing. Let’s do this.” You know, I didn’t realize that because of Amelia‘s birth, even though the labor was so intense with her, my body remembered that, which is wild. The muscle memory of that.

I hadn’t really fully pushed with Amelia, so it was pushing like a new mom, which I didn’t expect to go through. I pushed for 2.5 hours after we had been told I was ready to go and was complete. I was really working, working. I had the squat bar. I was pushing. I was on the ground. I was on all fours. I was doing everything possible to move her, and keep going, and move her down and everything.

She was just right there, but just wasn’t happening and then I spiked a fever. Dr. Brock came in and he was like, “Okay. I was all for everything you were doing, but now you spiked a fever. I am concerned for you and the baby. I am sure everything is fine, but I don’t want to take any chances, so these are the last pushes and then we are going to have to figure something out because I am not going to let you go longer because of the fever.” Of course, they had given me medication at this point to bring the fever down.

And so, he had turned to me and he was like, “All right. We are going to do a vacuum to try and help you get her out. Once I get the vacuum, you are going to have to push with all your might. It is just going to be to assist and then you’re going to have to push her out.” He was like, “When I tell you to push, I mean you’d better push with every single thing in you and push until you can’t breathe.” I was like “Oh, okay.” I remember being in the bed, and looking at Justin, and even reflecting on it myself, and being like, “Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I got this far and here we are again. I am freaking going to have a C-section.” 

I was really starting to go into fight-or-flight. I was getting really, really upset. My doula was trying to calm me over FaceTime. She was like, “It’s okay. We are still in control. It’s okay. Breathe. Just allow things to play,” and I am in total panic at this point. I looked at Justin and I said, “Can I have my earbuds please?” I put them in my ear. I turned on one of my fear-releasing meditations. I shut my eyes. I remember praying really, really hard and just being really intentional. Like, “I can make this happen. This is going to happen. I can do this. Come on, Ali. You can do this.”

Before I knew it, it was like, “Push.” I pushed so hard and the next thing I knew, there she was on my chest, screaming. I was hysterically crying. I couldn’t even believe that she was there. I honestly didn’t even feel her fully come out because everything was happening. It was so wild. I remember them putting her on my chest and I was bawling because I was like, “Oh my god, I did it. Oh my god. Oh my god. She’s here. Oh my god.” It was the most surreal experience and so healing in that moment for me of just being like, “Holy crap. I did it. My body did it.” Even now, I get choked up because I still can’t believe it happened.

Meagan: I’m sure in that whole moment there was just such that rush.

Julie: Yeah, wild.

Meagan: Yeah, okay. I have to do this right now. And then, boom. You did it.

Julie: Yeah. It sounds like she came so fast when it was time.

Ali: Yeah, well once he put the vacuum on and was like, “Okay, push.” He gave me that bar--

Meagan: The assistance, yes.

Ali: Yeah, the assistance and gave me that bar and was like, “Push down.” I just remember I pushed with everything in me. I pushed and holy crap. She was here. She was 9 pounds, 3 ounces, by the way.

Meagan: Yeah, girl!

Ali: Amelia was 8 pounds, 7 ounces and I thought that was big. Arley was 23.5 inches long so it was like, oh my gosh. I couldn’t believe that I got her out. It was truly amazing to me. It was so empowering. It was like, “Holy crap. My body did it.” It was so amazing. After having her on my chest and holding her, I was just bawling. I just couldn’t even believe it happened.

Meagan: Yeah. I’m sure it was just such an amazing moment. It sounds like she just needed to come into that pubic bone and then she was there. Oh, well congratulations.

Ali: Thank you.

Meagan: So awesome.

Ali: It was so magical. It really was. I just felt so much support around me through my whole pregnancy. It’s funny you say the pubic bone too because my chiropractor-- she kept adjusting me. Even the day before I went into labor, she adjusted me. She kept adjusting me and adjusting my hips and doing this, and my sciatica and everything to make sure I was as aligned as possible. But I think in a way it was kind of like me being tested, like how bad do you want this thing? Because when you guys were saying “the rush”, I felt like I could have either gone into fight-or-flight and I could have been like, “Oh my gosh,” in panic and allowed myself to not have that release that you guys talk about all the time, but I think because I did release, and I did allow her to come, and I got really intentional and listened to the fear releasing in my ears, I think it was all divine. And there she was.

Julie: Yeah. It’s incredible what can happen when you have that release of emotions. Fear in the birth space is real and it can really hold you up if you let it.

Ali: Mhmm, yeah. You’re right.

Meagan: So awesome. Now, she is just crawling around and being such a big girl.

Julie: Oh, such a fun age.

Ali: It is wild how fast. I feel like I just had her and I am like, “Oh my gosh, she is already crawling everywhere.” I literally turn around and she is down the hallway and I am like, “Oh, hey girlfriend.” It is crazy.

Julie: Wow.

Ali: You know, but in a wild way, this whole thing with the pandemic and 2020, for me, is such a blessing because it has been such a healing time for me between my VBAC, and having the family time, and having my husband home to be there with me with my girls, and truly not experience postpartum depression. I am just so grateful for it.

Julie: That’s awesome. That is really cool. We are living in a really crazy world right now and whenever we hear incredible birth stories coming out of this pandemic, it warms my heart. I don’t know. I could go off on five or six different tangents right now, but Meagan, what should we talk about? What should we talk about for an educational piece?

Meagan: Well, I love that she talked about fear releasing and self-advocacy. One of the things that I love that your doula did-- so birth workers, listen up if you are listening. They sat and they recorded. I love that she was like, “We are going to wrap it up, and seal it with a bow, and send it off.” That is so cool. It is such a powerful way, just talking about it, and getting it out there, and hearing yourself say it, and then maybe even watching it, and then saying, “Okay. That is how I felt and this is how I feel. This is why I am moving on from this fear because of this.” And then of course moving on and doing the other activities. It is so powerful.

I know I probably have talked about this until I’m blue in the face, but it really came down for me-- like, I had worked through so much and there was still stuff that I found in the very moment of labor that I didn’t realize that I had worked through. It’s just so, I don’t know. It is just so crazy how you think you have worked through it, and then it comes up, and you are like, “Oh, wait. That didn’t come up during my pregnancy,” and you have to work through it again. But if you have practiced and worked really, really hard processing during your pregnancy, then it won’t be so foreign. That’s the word that is coming to my mind and maybe that’s the wrong word.

Julie: Unfamiliar, maybe?

Meagan: Yeah. It just won’t be so unfamiliar and foreign in the moment to process. I know it would make processing during that time easier.

Julie: Yeah. I agree, 100%. Gosh, I mean, Meagan and I have both seen the same thing with our individual doula clients and working with parents through our VBAC preparation course. I actually just had a one-on-one consult with somebody preparing for VBAC a couple of weeks ago. Most of the time when we get hung up, and when there are things holding us back, and we feel like something’s not quite right, it is stemming from fear. When you can take out that fear, and write it out, and tear it up, and break it apart, and figure out where it is coming from, that is when you can really move past it in order to create a really, really clear birth space that is conducive to a nice, peaceful birth that is just happy and that you can look back on with really fond memories.

Ali: Yeah. I love that. I think it is so well beautifully said and so true. You know, it is so crazy because again, when we were talking at the beginning of this podcast, with Amelia, it was obviously a normal world. I was at events and doing all of this glamorous stuff. I was doing maternity photoshoots and all of these things. And you know, fast forward to Arley and it was like, stuck at home and especially in California, very much locked down. You know, everything. It was so wild how different in that sense the world was, but yet, even in such a chaotic world, it really was such a peaceful birth. And then in such a normal world, Amelia was such a chaotic birth. 

So I just find that, like you were just saying, so telling when it comes to that fear and that processing of all of that and the actual intention around it. It really does, in my opinion, make such a difference. I have seen it in my own birth.

Julie: Yeah. It absolutely does. Well, Ali, not Avril. It was so great to talk to you. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and chat about everything for hours. I feel like we are friends. I just love at the end of the episode, all these podcast episodes that we do where sometimes, it’s really hard to say goodbye. It’s like, “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.”

Meagan: I know. It is so true. So true. We are like, “Wait. Can we hang out, like, tomorrow?”

Ali: Right?

Julie: Let’s go to lunch. Where do you live again?

Meagan: California.

Ali: Yes, please. When we are open and normal, please do. I mean, I am so honored to be here. I truly love everything you guys are doing with your show and everything at The VBAC Link. I truly, like I said, still listen. I tell everyone to listen. I just think it is such an amazing space for women who need that kind of support. Especially women who really do want to have a VBAC and don’t have those kinds of resources. I think that too many times we are told so much in birth, but especially with VBAC, “No,” and they put the fear around it from the beginning.

I was so grateful that when that woman tried to really instill the fear in me that I knew better and that I was able to work past it because I feel for so many who just don’t have that. That’s why I was so grateful when I landed on The VBAC Link podcast because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Look at all of these amazing stories. I could be one of them too.” And like, holy crap. Here I am.

Meagan: You are one of them.

Julie: Full circle. I love it.

Ali: Yes. Yes.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

“Doulas are great. How do I get one?”

‘Hope you’re rich, bye!’

“Wait, now I can’t have one?”

We are so happy to be joined once again by our friend, Kaitlin McGreyes with Be Her Village. Meagan and Kaitlin talk all about the benefits of doulas and what they love most about being doulas themselves. 

Not only that– they also talk about how to actually afford one. Every mama deserves continuous support during her labor and birth. Kaitlin has created the platform to make it a reality. 

Additional Links

Be Her Village Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is Meagan from The VBAC Link and guess what? We have our friend, Kaitlin from Be Her Village, back. I am so excited to have you, Kaitlin. 

Kaitlin: I am so excited to be here, Meagan. Thank you so much for having me. I love this little friendship that has burst out of our VBAC love and our desire to get everybody their VBAC. 

Meagan: I know. Our passion around birth. It’s just so cool to see how people from different parts of the world can connect so deeply. I just adore you and love you and I do hope that I get to meet you one day soon in person. 

Kaitlin: Oh, for sure. We’re going to make that happen. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Last time we shared her VBAC story and this time we are going to be talking about doulas. So if you didn’t know, we are both doulas. Obviously, we are very passionate and heavily involved in the birth world. We are going to talk about, okay great. That’s wonderful. We know about doulas. Now what do we do? 

We are going to talk about that today so if you are wanting to know more about doulas, the stats around doulas, and how to pay for a doula, you want to hold on and listen to this episode. 

Review of the Week

But of course, I have a Review of the Week so we are going to get into that and then we are going to talk all about wonderful doulas. This review is from txliberty92 and it was in 2020 and it says, “From Fear to Confidence.” It says, “When I found out that I was pregnant for the second time, I instantly felt so confused about how to birth this baby. I had heard so much conflicting advice about repeat cesareans and just wanted to hear the facts and hear from people who had been down this road before. I am now 36 weeks into my pregnancy and prepared and totally confident in my upcoming VBAC. I don’t know if I would ever have gotten to this point without this podcast and community.” 

Oh, that makes me so happy. Txliberty92, if you are still listening, because that was in 2020. That was three years ago. If you are still listening, write us at info@thevbaclink.com and tell us how things went. And hey, we want to share your story. 

Be Her Village

Meagan: Okay. Let’s talk about doulas. First of all, I think it’s fun to talk about why us doulas become a doula because I know that when I was in high school, I knew I loved babies. I always wanted to babysit. I always wanted to be close to a baby, holding a baby, and then through high school, I was like, “I would love to be a labor and delivery nurse,” because hello, they get to be close to babies and hold babies all of the time, right? 

And then I started having babies of my own and learned more. I decided that I did love the idea of becoming a labor and delivery nurse but to be honest, I hate math. That’s literally one of the reasons why I decided not to become a labor and delivery nurse because they have to do so much math. 

Kaitlin: There is so much math in nursing, yes. 

Meagan: So much math and I just hate it so much. For those listening, you guys, I actually had to take Math 1010 three times. 

Kaitlin: Oh my goodness. 

Meagan: That is how much I hate math. I hate it so bad. I suck at it. I hate remembering it and still to this day, I’ve been a doula for over 8 years and I still have a hard time. I have to Google how to calculate mpu’s every single time because I hate math. So that is something that steered me away, but the thought of being able to love and support and educate and hold space for somebody and not do the math–

Kaitlin: Sign me up. 

Meagan: It sounded amazing. It sounded so amazing. So through my first birth, after my undesired, unplanned C-section, I definitely had more of a passion for birth, and then after my repeat and learning more about doulas, I was like, “Yeah. This is it.” I remember the fire lit inside of me that day just like, “This is what I’m going to do. I’m going to love people. I’m going to support people. I’m going to educate people and let them know what their options are.” I have loved it ever since and I am so glad to be here today. 

So where did your fire ignite?

Kaitlin: Oh my goodness. My fire ignited from my VBAC actually. I love that your story was like, “I always knew that I wanted to work with babies and mamas.” I had no idea. I was a special ed teacher in New York City. My husband still works as a special ed teacher in the school where we met when we were 22. That was the path. It was getting out at 3:00, working with kids, and feeling good. It was not being a maternal healthcare advocate at all. It was not doula work. It was not changing the baby industry. It was just not any of that. 

But then I went and I had a baby. My first birth, as you can listen to on the other episode, was on a spectrum from underwhelming on some days. I would reflect that it was underwhelming and other days, it was full-blown traumatic. It really depends on where I am in my head space. 

But it was kind of awful and the C-section wasn’t what was awful about it. It was how people treated me. It was the powerlessness. It was being dictated to and people making decisions around me and not acknowledging me as a human being and as an adult, grown-ass woman who could make decisions about myself and my body. 

Meagan: We’re having another human, right? 

Kaitlin: Right? How dare they. How dare they disempower me so quickly and then less than two years later, I had this incredibly different VBAC experience that was transformative before the baby ever came out of me. It had nothing to do with the vaginal side of it although that was amazing and kickass and I totally recommend it. But it was really about how I went in. I researched. I decided for myself that I wanted a VBAC first off. 

I hired a doula. I hired a VBAC-supportive provider, a doctor actually, and I just walked into that birth powerful and in charge. I ended up having a vaginal birth which was spectacular but that was the fire in me. It was sort of, “Wait a minute. How can I have two completely opposite experiences over the past two years?” So that was where I was just like, “I think the doula was a big part of it,” because I took childbirth education. I hired midwives. I did the things I was supposed to do and the doula, having someone in the moment when you’re in that crucible where you’re just being challenged and tested and you’re in crisis, for many of us, and where you have this deep desire for your baby to be safe and for you to be safe yet you know. 

You know because you’re listening to The VBAC Link. You know that this system is sort of rigged against us. How do you make sense of all that? The answer for me was in my doula. I knew that I needed to become a doula so that I could help more people. I have to be totally transparent. I definitely started out with a little bit of a savior complex. I was like, “If you hire me, I can save you from trauma,” which is not true or healthy for any of us. 

Meagan: It was probably you coping with your trauma. 

Kaitlin: Absolutely. There was this idea that my doula saved me in my birth so I could save somebody else. But it’s true in that sure, we can have an incredible impact but we can’t save anybody. You can’t just hire a doula and like, “Okay, that’s it. It’s done.” You have to hire a doula and work with them and ask questions and still be very much an active participant in your care. The doula is the tool to learn how to advocate. The doula is the tool to set yourself up for success and that was why I got into it because I just thought, “Man, I have had two completely opposite experiences and I want to help more people have the second one, have the empowered one, have the voice, have built the team around myself.” 

So I thought, “I’m going to be a doula.” Little did I know how that would all end up but it’s just amazing. It’s the best thing there is. 

Meagan: Yeah, exactly. I would have never told you when I was becoming a doula, or it was nine years ago in September. Right now when we’re recording, it’s almost June. So almost nine years and I would have never said, “Oh yeah, in nine years, I’m going to have a podcast and be a VBAC advocate and educator and all of these things.” I never would have guessed that, but man. I am so grateful for this journey and where it’s led us. 

You know, we talked about that. Doulas are there to help you. They’re not there to rescue you. I think sometimes even I would say if I would be really honest. I was kind of like that too. I would have a client where they would be going in having these really deep goals and I was like, “I am going to make sure that happens.” I would go in and then sometimes if they didn’t happen or if births went differently or we had unexpected events or something like that, I remember going home and I remember feeling like I failed as a doula. I felt like I failed them. 

Kaitlin: Yeah. Oh, it’s a horrible feeling. 

Meagan: A really bad feeling. For your birth workers listening, it’s important to know that you are there and you love your clients but we can’t save everyone. Just like the clients that are hiring us need to know that we’re not there to save but we’re there to help educate, guide, love, and help you facilitate the things that you need along the way. It’s just an extra crutch. 

Kaitlin: Yeah. I feel like it’s really the work of labor and birth happens in the pregnancy. That’s why you should get your doula as early as you can because it is in your doula’s ability to help understand what your true desires are and help keep you connected to them because one of the things so many of us do and I’m speaking really about myself here too. I’m projecting my own experience. We abandon ourselves. We know what we want. We know that we want XYZ for our birth and then we sacrifice ourselves because as mothers, this is what we do. We sacrifice our time and our energy and our bodies for our babies but that gets used against us sometimes. It’s really great to have somebody dedicated to your team that can sort of continue guiding the entire experience back to you back to those original goals, back to that original desire, and reminding you of what is possible and helping you stick to that. 

Then if you have to shift away from it, they are helping you navigate that shift in a way that feels intentional and purposeful and that you are emotionally able to shift as well so that we avoid that feeling of, “I don’t even know what happened. I felt like I got hit by a bus and now I have a baby and I’m not sure how it happened.” We can’t control a lot of things that happen in birth and doulas can’t control them either which is a journey we go on as professionals. 

But we absolutely can help people navigate their births in a way that feels empowering regardless of the medical factors that end up happening. 

Meagan: Yeah. One of my favorite parts about being a doula is actually helping the partner along the way because I mean, obviously, Mom is the star of the show. She’s having the baby and she’s a very important person. She’s definitely the MVP in that room but guess what? So are these partners. It’s so fun like you said to circle around and help these partners feel more a part of birth as well because they sometimes have that same feeling where all of a sudden they are like, “Oh my gosh. My wife has a baby. What just happened?” 

So it’s so nice to help dads and birth partners feel more involved and more connected and in control in a way of their own birth experience as well because it is their birth experience too. 

Kaitlin: Absolutely. I would argue that doulas are more for the partners in a lot of ways than they are for the birthing person. I personally didn’t hire a doula for my first birth and I regret it. I can say pretty blatantly and bluntly that I regret it because I was afraid that it would take away the intimacy. I was afraid that it would be too many people and that I wouldn’t have this intimate with my partner but what ended up actually happening is that my partner was so panicked by this mess of labor and by his wife being in so much pain. 

He wasn’t of any help to me. I mean, he was as much help as he could have been. I’m not trying to attack my partner but he was really in this place of being a deer in the headlights. I was flipping out. He was a deer in the headlights. Everything was going wrong and he didn’t have the tools. He had never done it before and that’s in a birth that was very stressful. 

Even in a birth where you’re not in a medically-induced place, it’s still really hard to have the entirety of the responsibility of this experience to see your partner who is for the most part– this is a little stereotypical, but it’s true– the women who are giving birth are making the lists and they’re choosing the doctors. They’re setting up their doulas. They’re doing all of the things and they’re making a birth plan. They’re dotting every i and they’re crossing every t and then what happens when they go into active labor? They retreat. Their minds retreat into their bodies and then all of a sudden, they’re not communicating much of anything which can be really disorienting to a partner who feels to them that they need to keep their partner and their baby safe. 

This creates this feeling of alarm and can really not make the whole thing not feel good for everybody. When we have a doula that can come in for the partner and normalize the entire birthing experience whether it’s in the hospital really medicalized or at home during early labor to transfer or have a home birth, it’s so cool to have somebody who has walked this path before to be able to tell your partner, “Hey, this is all fine.” 

To have someone not react when you have somebody vomiting or contracting or shaking or all of these things that happen in the throes of labor, can be so relaxing. What is does is that it helps the partner then join his woman or his birthing person with intention and with this presence without all of the anxiety. It actually creates this beautiful expression of love. 

Not to mention, it’s so cool to have someone show you how to touch your partner. One of them when I was teaching childbirth, I remember he was half joking but he was only half joking. He was like, “I just want you to teach me how far away to stand from her,” because he was just so nervous about the whole thing. It’s like, imagine having someone come in and be like, “Hey, when she does that, just press here,” and it’s like ooh. You get to learn and have a coach that helps you take on that care. It’s the opposite of what so many of us think, myself included, was that a doula would replace my partner or get in the way. Really, what we do is help partners get more hands-on in such a helpful way. 

Meagan: Yeah. Exactly. My husband was really not keen on the idea of hiring a doula. He was like, “I’m not good enough? You’re going to replace me?” That’s where he snapped too. It’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. It’s not like that.” But it wasn’t until we had a doula that he was like, “Whoa. Okay. I see what you do as a profession. I love this and we would never do this again without one.” 

So yeah. Doulas are there for you. They’re there for your birthing partner, but guess what, you guys? They have actual stats on how impactful doulas can be. That is so cool to me to think that there are stats on the profession that I do. It sounds silly. 

Kaitlin: It’s science. It’s science. Passionate science. It’s science. 

Meagan: There are actual statistics that what I do and what I love is helpful. Okay, so let’s talk about them. Doulas can decrease pain medication so epidurals, fentanyl, and stuff like that by 10% which seems little, but if you think about all of the people giving birth. 

Kaitlin: 10% is huge. 

Meagan: 10% is huge if you have 24-hour labor or more. I was 42. Yeah. It’s wonderful. There’s a 38% decrease in the baby’s risk of a low 5-minute APGAR score. 

Kaitlin: And that, I really want to pause on that because that’s a really big deal. The APGAR is your sign of life. That’s literally like do you have muscle tension? Are you pink which means there’s oxygen coursing? Do you have a pulse? It’s literally, is this baby thriving? The APGAR is an enormous measure and what’s wild about this is that doulas are not medical providers. We’re not medical providers. I can understand the epidural being applied. It’s like, “Yeah, we have some tools and tricks up our sleeve to help you manage pain. That makes sense to me.” 

But influencing an APGAR? This means that if you hire a doula, a non-medical provider, whatever magic thing that we’re doing is not really magic. It’s just being present and helping people advocate for themselves, can have health impacts on your baby. That’s wild. Who we’re not touching, who we’re not making medical decisions on. We have no medical training and yet we’re impacting medical outcomes. That’s a big, big, big deal. 

Meagan: It’s pretty stinking huge. In this study, it doesn’t necessarily single out doulas. It’s continuous support which guess what doulas do? Continuous support. 

Kaitlin: Yeah. Well, no other provider is doing that. 

Meagan: No. I mean, they’re in and they’re out. Midwives and OBs, we love them all. 

Kaitlin: Yes, we do. 

Meagan: But they can’t. They can’t. 

Kaitlin: The system is not set up for continuous support. Absolutely. 

Meagan: They can’t. They might be in there for a little bit but then they’re in and they’re out. So a 31% decrease in the risk of being dissatisfied with the birth experience. 

Kaitlin: That’s a big one. That’s a big one. 

Meagan: You guys! 31%. So one of the things that I love about being a doula– I mean, there are a lot of things– but I want someone to walk away from their birth, even if it didn’t happen exactly how they wanted on their birth preference sheet or birth plan, to have a good experience. I want them to look back and say, “You know, I didn’t get this or that or this happened and wasn’t my ideal but overall, that was an amazing experience and I’m happy with my experience and I don’t reference my experience as traumatic,” and just have an overall better view on their birth. 

Kaitlin: That’s the thing though. We all know there are uncontrollables but having respect and feeling in control and feeling like you were part of your birth in a powerful way has ripple effects and implications well beyond that day of your birth. That’s a huge metric and that’s really, really important. 

Meagan: Yeah, huge. Another one, I think, that is really cool is that they have one showing continuous support such as a doula can shorten labor by 41 minutes. 

Kaitlin: Um, yes. They shorten labor. They shorten pushing time and reduce your risk of C-section or surgical birth, forceps, or vacuum, up to 25%. I think there is a saying and I’ll have to find the quote but it’s like, “If doulas were a drug, it would be unethical not to use them. It is clinically proven that continuous support by a non-family member– that’s the doula part, right?

Meagan: Yes. Yeah, I want to talk about that. 

Kaitlin: Yes. Continuous support by a non-family member is wildly impactful not just on your emotional experience but on your pushing time, your laboring time, your surgical birth risk, and your baby’s health. It’s really something that every single person in the United States deserves to have. 

I also want to just put this other steed in here that doulas are not the cause of surgical birth. We are not the cause of longer labors or lower APGARs. We’re not the root cause of these issues but we are one of the solutions that our healthcare system is looking at. 

It’s hard to talk about this because I do want to talk about how doulas are awesome. Everyone should have a doula. 

Meagan: They’re seriously so awesome. 

Kaitlin: But we are very much also a bandaid on a broken system so yes. We’re all currently giving birth in this system so we all should have access to doulas and that’s part of the work that we’re both doing is getting people connected to the doulas in their area and getting people connected to the funding to pay for them because that’s sort of the elephant in the room. It’s like, “Okay. All of these doulas are great and they’re highly impactful.” You listen to a podcast like this and it’s like, “Oh, that’s great. How do I get one?” It’s like, “They cost $2000 out of pocket. Hope you’re rich, bye!” It’s like, “Wait, now I can’t have one?” 

It’s all a really messy stage in the American maternal healthcare system that we’re in right now, but the idea of having a doula or not having a doula when you think about what we all think about as we are preparing for our birth is, “What’s best for my baby?” It’s best for your baby to have a doula-supported birth both for their health and for their parents’ health and their parents’ experience. If anyone’s on the fence about it, I hope that this will spark you into researching and talking and looking into it because there are a lot of misconceptions about doulas. 

They are for everybody even if you are planning a C-section. Even if you’re listening to this podcast because you’re like, “I don’t know. VBAC’s not for me.” Even if you’re listening because you’re a hater. Doulas are for everybody. They’re for every kind of birth. You can plan a C-section. You can plan an epidural. You can plan a home birth. You can plan a birth in the middle of the woods and a doula can be really instrumental in being an advocate for yourself throughout that. 

Meagan: Yes, and I have been to scheduled C-sections. I had two and I wish that I had a doula to be there. So I love that you were talking about, “Okay, wait. We know that doulas are awesome.” Sorry guys, but doulas are awesome. 

Kaitlin: But we are. 

Meagan: Okay, where do we find them? There are websites all over. You can search “Doula Near Me”. The VBAC Link has specific VBAC doulas. You just go to thevbaclink.com and search “Find a Doula”. Type in your zip code and boom.

But yeah, then what? Then what? How do we pay for $2000 doulas? 

Kaitlin: Yes. $2000. I’m in New York. $2000 is kind of run-of-the-mill. Medicaid is covering $1900. They’re paying out for doulas. That’s just the cost of doulas in New York. It really varies according to market but it’s expensive. If it’s an $800 doula, then that means the salaries in the area and the cost of housing and everything else in that area is low. 

I think it’s safe to say that it is a heavy lift for most people to be able to access a doula and not just a doula, but all of the other care that comes with it as well. Postpartum care, tongue tie clips, breastfeeding care, pelvic floor care, maternal mental health. How many insurance companies are covering those things? There’s just an enormous amount of funding that needs to happen in order for us to get the care that we deserve, the baseline of care that is happening in other countries for other mothers. 

One of the things that I love to talk about because it’s sort of my life’s work–

Meagan: Listen how to solve this problem!

Kaitlin: Drumroll, please! It’s really your baby registry. It’s using Be Her Village which is what I created. It’s our platform, our baby registry platform so that you can use this event where all of your loved ones are opening their wallets. They’re going to buy you thousands of dollars of gifts. Literally, the stats are 12 billion dollars divided by almost 4 million babies. It’s a lot of money, a lot of money being spent by communities and well-meaning, well-intentioned, so generous– everyone wants to support a new mother. Everybody does. 

But right now, you can just go to baby stores and get a bunch of baby stuff. I don’t know. We’ve all bought gifts before and I guess the swaddles can help but it’s not the same as knowing that this gift is going to be impactful. One of the best things that we’ve done is we’ve created this platform where you can register for and find the practitioners in your area– the doulas, the lactation consultants, the pelvic floor specialists, the childbirth education, the acupuncturists– everybody who is supporting mothers in their birth and their postpartum time. You can find them and add them directly to your gift registry.

Your friends and family can send you funds, cash, cold-hard cash to pay for them so it’s totally flexible. We’ve had $165,000 funded on our platform so far just from communities who are generously opening up. It is such an amazing tool and funding opportunity that is already happening. We already know about baby showers. They’re happening. We already know how to use a gift registry. What if we use it to pay for doulas? What if we use it to pay for that care? It’s really, really cool so I just highly recommend every single person that’s listening to go to Be Her Village. Click on our shopping guide. Click to get started. If you’re a doula, add your services there. 

We’re reclaiming the baby shower because the baby shower has become this place where we get carloads of boxes where we get all of this stuff. For me, I had to haul it back to my tiny apartment. I’m like, “Where am I going to fit all of this stuff for my baby?” I was living in New York City at the time and we’re really saying, “You know what? Moms need stuff for their babies, sure. We’ll find them and how to pay for them but there’s this real need for care for ourselves.” 

It’s like the conversation we just had. Who doesn’t want a doula after listening to that? Who doesn’t want a doula after knowing the stats of how impactful it can be? What better gift than to say to someone, “Hey, I’m going to help you find that so you can have a better health outcome and so you can have a better experience so your entire transition into motherhood can feel better than it would have otherwise.”

Meagan: Absolutely. I’m going to pull it up. Seriously, it’s so easy. This website is so incredible. You can go and create your registry. You can shop for services. You can give your gifts. Anything, right here. Also, there is virtual. That’s something too. Doulas and birth workers, if you are offering virtual courses, help people find your course so they can get more educated. They can go more prepared. There are tons of virtual services. You can go in. There’s childbirth education. There’s a fourth trimester. There’s restoring your body. There’s heart and mind. 

You guys, this is such an amazing platform. To say I’m obsessed is an understatement. It really is an understatement to say how much I love this platform and how genius you are for creating this space for people. I didn’t hire a doula with my second baby because get this. You’re going to laugh out loud. Everyone’s going to die. I thought that $150 was too much at the time. 

Kaitlin: Oh gosh. 

Meagan: We didn’t have a lot of money. 

Kaitlin: I get it. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kaitlin: Meagan, it’s all so backward. We have our babies when we’re making the least amount of money. Then when we have a baby, for many of us, you stop working. At least temporarily, if not for a long time. 

Meagan: You do. Yes. 

Kaitlin: You get squeezed financially and at the earliest time in your career. You’re barely established and who wants to wait to be established? I’m 39 and I don’t even feel established right now. But it shouldn’t be that we have to choose how much care we receive because of our income level or because of the disposable income that we have. It’s not enough. 

My doula cost $1200 and that was nine years ago. It was the same amount as my mortgage. 

Meagan: Right. 

Kaitlin: It was a huge lift for us but luckily, I knew. I was so driven for the VBAC. Actually, my VBAC approach was to do everything the opposite. I didn’t take the childbirth education. I hired an OB instead of a midwife. I hired a doula instead of not. But it’s a big, heavy lift and we have to start thinking about not just, “Can I afford it?” but “I deserve this. How do I do this?” So we have to be more creative as a collective. It’s really cool. 

This baby shower is sort of this untapped area that we’ve just been going to for decades. You go. You buy the stuff at the store. You give it to parents. They return half of it. It’s this thing that we’re doing on repeat and I think it’s time for some serious evaluation about, “What do we actually need? What does a mother actually need?” If you were to make a list, which we do. We have the top ten things you need on your registry and none of them can be found at a store because it’s all about support and care from the community which often looks like professionals as well as friends and loved ones and family members and neighbors. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I am so grateful for what you do. I encourage everyone. If you are looking to hire a doula and you’re just not sure or the funds are hanging over or maybe a postpartum doula. Maybe you’re really needing that support educationally or whatever it may be, this is the place for you to go and check out. You could even hire a birth photographer if you’re wanting to capture your birth. I mean, you guys. They have everything. So definitely, definitely, definitely check them out at behervillage.com. We’re going to make sure to have all of the links in our show notes. Go to Instagram. Follow Be Her Village. 

You’re amazing and I’m so grateful for you. I’m so grateful that your births have taken you on this journey honestly, just like I have with mine. It’s such an honor to be sharing this space and this beautiful community with you. 

Kaitlin: Thank you, Meagan. I feel the exact same way. I’m really, really grateful for you. As much as I hate that we have had these hard birth experiences, it’s all worthwhile because of how we are using it and how we’re using it to help the next person, so thank you for that. 

Meagan: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

After a LONG break, The VBAC Link podcast is back again! We have missed hearing your stories and feeling inspired by your strength. We promise that you will smile, cry, and celebrate with Francis as she shares her beautiful heart with us today. 

While pregnant with her hopeful VBA2C baby, Francis created these birth goals:

“I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands-off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.”

She strived for an empowering birth experience no matter what the outcome was, which only made her successful VBA2C that much sweeter. 

We also discuss why you shouldn’t be afraid to birth a big baby and how your intuition can be your greatest asset in the birth room.  

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: Get That Big Baby Out

The VBAC Link Shirt Shop

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. We have Francis with us today. And my gosh! I did not sing. I was going to sing a song, “Guess who’s back, back again?” Oh, yes. I was going to sing it. I was going to sing it, but I did not sing it.

Meagan: Guess who’s back?

Julie: Back again.

Meagan: Oh, I love it.

Julie: Julie’s back. And Meagan!

Meagan: Yeah!

Julie: Dang it. I sang it. Gosh. The only other time I have sang on the podcast was when I sang myself “Happy Birthday” for me in Korean on my birthday episode. That was fun. Do you remember that?

Meagan: Yeah, that was forever ago.

Julie: That was super fun.

Julie: Oh my gosh. We are back!

Meagan: We’re back!

Julie: It’s been a while.

Meagan: Yes it has.

Julie: Holy cow.

Meagan: We have had a lot going on, but it feels good. It feels really good. It feels a little weird and out of sync, but I am excited to be back. I’m sitting here. I’m so excited to have guests again. I’m excited to be with you. It’s going to be great.

Julie: Wow. So much has happened since we aired our last episode. Do you want to just kind of give a couple little things about what you have been up to and I’ll do the same, and then we will get into our story?

Meagan: Yeah. My life is always crazy with children. What have I been up to? Gymnastics meets, soccer games, working on children’s mental health. COVID impacted my kids more than I ever even realized. And so, working with kids and their mental health, getting ready to move– a sporadic, spontaneous move. Yeah. Working with my husband, just letting him work, doing doula stuff for my doula business, hiring new doulas. It’s been a lot but it’s been great.

Julie: Yeah. Holy cow. I know all that already and I am starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed for you. Kind of the same for me, keeping up with kids. My oldest has had some mental and physical health struggles as well, and so lots of things going on for him, and soccer, and gymnastics. My oldest two boys are doing bouldering classes, so learning how to climb big rocks.

Meagan: That’s awesome.

Julie: I know. It’s super fun. Super fun for them. And I actually have shifted in my role in the birth work field and I am a birth photographer now. So still a little bit of doula-ing, but birth photography mostly and that’s been really fun. I really love it a lot.

Meagan: And you’re great. You’re so great at it too.

Julie: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. It’s been really fun. Really interesting, but it’s also kind of like starting a whole new business while restarting everything with The VBAC Link so it’s kind of been a lot. We have been up to a lot recently. So thanks everybody for hanging in there with us while we took a little bit of a break to catch up, and maintain, and restart some things in our busy lives. We appreciate everybody for supporting us while we were hanging out in the background for just a little bit, but we’re back.

Meagan: We’re back.

Julie: We’re back.

Review of the Week

Alright, as always, we have to start the episode with a review of the week. Thank you so much, everybody, for leaving reviews. We love them so much and Meagan is going to share one with us right now.

Meagan: Yes. We have a review from holmclaugh90 and the title is “I listen every single day.” It says, “After a traumatic cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second. Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing that I can do this.”

I love it.

Julie: I love it too. I love it.

Meagan: That was in July of last year, so she definitely has had a baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, email us at info@thevbaclink.com. We would love to know how your birth went.

Julie: Yeah. Or tag us in your birth story on Instagram or Facebook and we can share it.

Meagan: Yeah.

Francis’ Story

Meagan: Alright.

Julie: Alright.

Meagan: I can’t wait for this new story.

Julie: I know. We are really excited. We are bringing it back with a classic story about– can you guess? Drumroll please. Big babies!

Meagan: I was gonna say, VBAC with a big baby.

Julie: VBAC with a big baby, and we are also going to sprinkle in some talk about maternal mental health, and the importance of trauma processing, and working through prior births, and some cholestasis there for a little bit of variety. But before we do that, I want to introduce our guest, Francis.

Francis is a married mother of three from Raleigh, North Carolina. She balances motherhood with a full-time job in international business. Wow. Really need to hear more about that. She enjoys swimming, CrossFit, outdoor adventuring, and traveling. So Francis, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us. We cannot wait to hear more about your story. Why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more?

Francis: Sure. Well first of all, it’s so good to be with you guys. I am so glad that you’re back doing this.

Julie: Thank you.

Francis: It was just such a resource that I used in my pregnancy, and so I am so glad that there are more episodes for women to listen to, and hopefully be inspired by, and learn from. You guys are just amazing and congratulations on all that you guys have been up to. And Julie, I think that’s awesome that you are doing birth photography. We had a birth photographer at all three of our births and it’s just something that I hold so precious and dear to my heart. So I think it’s incredible that you are doing that and giving that back to moms as well.

Julie: Aw, thank you.

Meagan: I would totally agree with you. It’s actually one of my biggest regrets not having one at my birth. I wish so badly that I had someone there to take more pictures and videos so I could experience it from a different perspective too.

Francis: Yeah.

Meagan: Because when you are in the thick of it, it’s hard to even comprehend what is happening. I wish I could have just seen, I don’t know. I wish I could’ve seen it from a different angle. But yeah. She’s awesome.

Francis: Yeah. And you know, it’s funny. I didn’t even think about this as part of my birth story when I was thinking about it, but we did have a birth photographer with all three of my births and as you’ll hear, my first two births did not go as planned, but I still have the photographs from that and it actually really did help in my healing when I had the courage to go through them to look back and see, you know what? Even though this didn’t go as I thought it might, there is still a lot of beauty in my births.

Meagan: Absolutely. Yeah.

Francis: So I think it is for any woman. To have that moment captured is special, no matter how the birth turns out. You know?

Julie: Yeah, I love that. Thank you.

Francis: Yeah.

Julie: Nice plug-in.

Francis: Yeah I know, right? So speaking of– my first pregnancy was in 2012 and prior to getting pregnant, I had been introduced to homebirth by my sister who had a really beautiful homebirth for herself. Prior to her having a homebirth, I honestly didn’t really know that that was a thing that people were doing. I just assumed everyone had hospital births and that was just the way it was. And so when I saw her experience and I educated myself on what a homebirth was, I decided I really wanted that for myself.

So after I got pregnant, I looked into having a homebirth, but unfortunately in the state where I am at, it’s not real easy for midwives to operate in a homebirth setting. So it wasn’t in the cards for me, but I did find a freestanding birth center that was about 30 minutes from my home staffed by midwives and then backed up by physicians where I could give birth. I hired a really amazing doula and took a Birthing From Within class with her, and then I hired the birth photographer.

We had everything lined up. My pregnancy was super easy and very normal up until I got to about 40 weeks and started stressing out, like a lot of moms do. I knew it was normal and natural to go past 40 weeks, but I don’t know. I guess I just thought it would never happen to me. I don’t know. But I started to get really stressed out. I hit 41 weeks and my provider wanted to do an ultrasound to check the fluid and check in on baby. Everything was healthy, but they did end up measuring my baby and they estimated that my baby was over 12 pounds.

So as you can imagine, I really started to freak out. My provider was still supportive and supportive of me trying for a natural birth at the birth center if I could go into labor on my own, but I do know that it planted some seeds of doubt both with them and honestly within myself. But I do know that women birth big babies all the time and that ultrasounds can be wrong. 

So we moved forward. I luckily ended up going into labor on my own right before I hit 42 weeks. I had a long labor, but it was steady. I was at the birth center and everything was normal, kind of until it wasn’t. I didn’t know this at the time, but I ended up basically stalling at 8 centimeters for a number of hours and then my labor basically stopped. And so we decided to go to the hospital which was really devastating to transfer, but I knew it was necessary at that point. So we transferred. I did get an epidural and some Pitocin to try to pick things back up. But at this point, it had been 36 hours and I was just kind of ready to be over it. There was this question mark of how big my baby was and maybe my baby really wasn’t going to fit.

So I consented to a Cesarean and my baby did end up being really big. He was a surprise gender. He was a boy and he was 11 lbs. 2 oz. So not quite 12, but still really big.

Meagan: Wow.

Julie: Really big baby.

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: That’s a big, chunky baby.

Francis: Yeah, exactly. So my Cesarean was fine. You know, physically I was fine. My recovery wasn’t bad. But I mentally struggled as I know a lot of Cesarean moms do. I was just really disappointed in the outcome. I went from really wanting a homebirth, to then being at the birth center, to then transferring to the hospital, and then having a Cesarean. I felt like a failure. And I know looking back now that I wasn’t, but it felt that way at the time. I’ve been a physically active person my whole life, and so I think for the first time ever, I really felt like my body failed me. That was really hard. I had a hard time swallowing that.

I also felt guilt. I felt like it was my fault, like maybe I ate too much pie and that’s why I had an 11 pound baby. Or maybe I should have kept trying at the birth center and not gone to the hospital. But either way, you know, it worked out the way it did. We were healthy, and that, of course, is the most important thing. But I was really– I did struggle for a while with that birth and just processing everything that I went through.

Fast forward a couple of years later, my husband and I decided that we were ready for another. I had regained some confidence in myself and in my body, and decided that I did want to go for a VBAC. I was able to go back to the birth center midwives from my prior pregnancy, but in my state, you can’t do VBAC out of the hospital, so they have admitting privileges in the hospital.

So I knew it meant an automatic hospital birth which was disappointing because again, I really didn’t want to be in a hospital environment, but I didn’t have much of a choice. But I found the midwives were really supportive and I was ready to go. We had the same doula and the same photographer, and everything was really great. And then at right about 40 weeks, I got cholestasis, which, I know you guys have covered on the podcast before, but it causes insane itching and it can be harmful to the baby.

So at that point, we decided I really needed to be induced. That was, again, really devastating, I had hoped to be able to go into labor on my own and labor at home as long as possible before going to the hospital, but having an induction that I knew in my heart was really medically necessary, I had to be at the hospital. 

I am super grateful our midwife group– I didn’t know a whole lot about VBAC protocol at the time with induction, but what I know now, I know that they really followed it to a T. We did a low and slow induction. We did a Foley and very gentle Pitocin. I was honestly kind of on and off Pitocin for about three days trying to get this baby to come out.

At the end of the third day, I think I had gotten to 3 centimeters. I got a cervical check and they felt my baby‘s ear instead of the top of her head, so she was almost completely sideways.

Julie: Oh wow.

Francis: Yeah. So that was obviously quite unexpected. We spent a little bit of time with the doula and the midwife trying to sort of shimmy and shake and get her to move, but after some time, it just wasn’t happening. I had already been there over three days. We had a toddler that was being shuffled around between family at home. I just knew in my heart at that point it was time to consent to another Cesarean.

That was a super difficult decision, but honestly, I came to it really feeling genuinely supported and that I had been involved in the decision making every step of the way, so it wasn’t a bad experience. Rght about that time, the concept of family-centered Cesareans was coming to the forefront, and so I was able to have a really gentle Cesarean. I did have a clear drape. I think I was the second person at this hospital to have a clear drape and it was fine. 

Again, I did end up having another really big baby. This was also a surprise gender. It was a girl. She was 10 lbs. 10 oz. So at that point, I realized I just grow really giant babies. Again, processing the Cesarean was difficult, but probably not as difficult as the first time just because I had been so well supported by everybody. You know?

So after that, life moved on. My husband and I weren’t entirely sure that we were done having kids, but pretty sure we were done having kids, and so I just fell into life. You know, work, being a mom. I unfortunately had a couple of really difficult personal situations that came about during the couple of years after my daughter was born. The biggest one being my mother was diagnosed with cancer and then passed away. That was really difficult.

Meagan: Yeah. That’s heavy. Heavy, heavy.

Francis: Yes. Yeah, very.

Meagan: I’m sorry.

Francis: Thank you. I decided I really needed to take some time to work on myself. You know? So I found an amazing counselor who I went and saw very frequently. We just spent a lot of time processing everything. Some of that, of course, was my births, and processing the trauma of my births, and just those feelings of failure, and disappointment, and guilt. And then, we just spent a lot of time processing everything else that life throws at you.

Through that, one of the things, and probably the most important thing, that I learned was that I have really good instincts. I think that honestly, most of us do, especially mothers. We have really good instincts, but it takes some time, and some practice, and some patience to learn how to trust them and how to follow them. Going through all of the counseling really helped teach me how to lean in to my intuition and how to trust my gut. That was an experience that just has obviously helped me in every area of life.

Julie: That’s such a valuable thing to learn.

Francis: Yeah.

Julie: It’s a hard way to learn it, but it’s such a good skill to have and a good thing that came out of that.

Francis: Yeah, exactly. Yep.

So I was in a really good place and then 2020 happened, right? The pandemic and then in July 2020, I found myself surprised pregnant. Obviously, my husband and I had not closed the door on having children, but we weren’t really planning on it. So when I found out I was pregnant, it was a bit of a shock. Honestly, it took us a little bit of time to really get excited about it. It was just such a surprise that we weren’t really sure how to feel about it, but eventually, we did come to be very surprised. To be honest, I didn’t know right away whether I wanted to try for a VBAC again. And honestly, I didn’t know whether it was an option for me, like whether the hospital would allow me to or whether my personal circumstances were right for a VBAC.

So I started doing a little bit of research and then seeking out some opinions and taking into consideration my personal circumstances. And I do have, like I’ve mentioned, I have a history of big babies. I had cholestasis in my last pregnancy. I had this “failed VBAC”. I was almost 40 years old and was just like, “I don’t know. Is this a good idea for me to try for a VBAC? What happens if I fail again? What does that mean?” So I really spent some time thinking about it and I did briefly check out a different healthcare provider just to see if maybe a change in my provider would be helpful. Also, this one was a bit closer to my house. I’ll never forget at that first appointment, I was just trying to feel out what my options would be and they said to me, verbatim, “No doctor at this hospital will ever support you in a VBAC.”

I just remember thinking like– I didn’t know a lot at that time about a VBAC after two Cesareans, but I knew that that didn’t feel right.

Meagan: Yeah.

Francis: Yeah. That like, “Wait. I don’t have a decision in what happens to my body?” I knew that didn’t feel right. And so I decided. I was like, “Okay. I’m not going to stay with this practice. Let me do more research and let me seek out additional opinions.”

So I ended up going back to the midwives with the birth center that I had been with before for my prior two pregnancies. And again, they only do VBAC in the hospital. I inquired with them whether they would take me on and they said, “Yes.” They did share some of the same concerns as me, but ultimately they did support me in being a part of the process and making a decision of what happens with me and my baby. So at that point, that’s when I found you guys.

Meagan: That’s really how it should be, by the way. When you said that, it reminded me of my conversation with my old doctor. I went to go get my medical records and he said, “Good luck. No one is going to want you out there.” And it was like, “Okay.” And it wasn’t even like, “Yeah. Let’s talk about it,” or “Let me tell you why I don’t feel comfortable with it.” You know?

Francis: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, anyways. Yeah. I felt that someone shouldn’t be making that choice for me. If I choose not to try for a VBAC, that’s my choice. But for someone else to just say, “No. You must have major surgery.” It just didn’t feel right and it didn’t sit well with me.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.

Francis: But luckily, I was able to go back to my previous provider and find support. I know a lot of women don’t find that, so I was really lucky in that regard. At that point, that’s when I really, really start a diving deep into VBAC research and that’s when I found you guys. I looked at all of the research you put out. I started listening to your podcasts and all of the other stories, and it really gave me strength and confidence. 

One of, perhaps, I think the most important things is in listening to other women’s stories, it opened my eyes to this possibility of this perfect “birth” that I had in my head before. It didn’t have to be like that. I could accept a hospital birth or I could accept interventions and that could still be a beautiful birth. It doesn’t have to be this like, I don’t know, what you see in a movie or just that perfect, serene birth. I realized and I accepted that I could open up my mind. Things might turn out not precisely like I hope they do, but that could still be okay. You know?

Julie: Yes. I love that.

Francis: I really shifted my mindset and in this pregnancy, I didn’t worry about all the things that sometimes people do. I really just focused on taking care of my mind and taking care of my body.

I did do chiropractic care, and I also did– I don’t know if you guys have heard of the Arvigo abdominal massage? I did that.

Meagan: No. What is that?

Francis: Oh. Yeah, so it’s really interesting. It’s a Mayan technique and it’s an abdominal massage. It’s actually really great after a Cesarean. It really helps with scar tissue. But even during pregnancy, it just– I actually don’t know all of the benefits of it other than for one, it feels really great. I think it can help with the round ligaments and stuff. It just helps the positioning of your baby and I don’t know. I found it really relaxing and comforting, so I did do that.

I also did go to an acupuncturist and overall, just stayed active and well. But I did all those things not for some arbitrary reason, but because it made me feel good. So I really just focused on that.

With this different approach to this pregnancy and accepting that things might turn out differently than what I had initially hoped, I shared all of this with my provider. I think that was super helpful because I think that they realized that I was in this mental space where I knew I could trust myself and I could trust my instincts and make the right decisions. In turn, they really trusted me. So it really helped in that and having support from them.

One of the things, though, that did bring up some concern was that I did do a maternal fetal medicine consult about halfway through just to talk about my prior Cesareans and go over my operative history. One thing that came up that was a bit unexpected was in my second Cesarean, the surgeon had noted that I had really dense adhesions from my first Cesarean. He put almost a note in there to say, “A note to future surgeons, you might experience a prolonged surgery because of all of this dense scar tissue that was in there.”

Julie: Interesting.

Meagan: Well, and I actually wonder if the dense scar tissue extended– because you said you made it to 8, and you stalled, and you made it to 3. We just had a client that, same thing. She only made it to 3.5 and her body was in active labor. Her cervix just wasn’t going and she had super dense adhesions.

Francis: Yeah. I mean, for sure. I don’t really know, obviously, all of the ways that it can affect you, but I am sure, it’s not natural to have all of that scar tissue in your abdomen, right? It’s there because you’ve had this major surgery. So the one thing, though, that they did mention and why it concerned them is they said that if I attempted and it ended up in an emergent situation, it might not turn out well for me because they wouldn’t be able to get through all of that scar tissue super quickly either to save my baby or me, right?

That was a little bit scary to hear, but my first thought was like, “Well, if I have got all of the scar tissue and it’s going to be super hard to open me up, don’t you guys just not want to have to open me up? Wouldn’t the best case scenario be to just not have another surgery?”

Julie: Right?

Meagan: And avoid that completely? Yeah.

Francis: Right. And add more scar tissue. I know when you have these adhesions, they can accidentally cut into your bladder or things like that. So I was like, “Well, isn’t it best case scenario just to not have surgery?” And they were like, “Oh, yeah I guess so.” It was kind of funny, almost like they hadn’t really thought of that option, but they wanted me to schedule a repeat Cesarean before I went into labor so they could do it on their own time so they wouldn’t have to rush. Which on the one hand, I understand, but the other hand I was like, “Well, let’s just try to not cut me open at all.” Right?

The other thing too with that was again, I really trusted myself to be able to make the right decision and I trusted that if I were to attempt a VBAC and get to the point where a Cesarean was necessary, that I was capable of making the decision to head to the OR before it was an emergency. I had done that twice before, you know? The other thing too was I had done the research. I know you guys have talked about this before how rare uterine rupture really is and that’s kind of like the big deal with VBAC’s, right? Also, not only how rare it is, but then when there is rupture, how few of them are really catastrophic. You know? It seemed a little bit silly to go in for a Cesarean just because there was a one in 1000 chance that I might have a catastrophic rupture. 

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

Francis: Yeah. So ultimately, I respectfully appreciated their professional opinion, but decided I still wanted to go for a VBAC. So anyways, I went for it again. Basically, the rest of my pregnancy proceeded as normal. As far as I know, I did not get the cholestasis again. I did take some herbals that maybe played a role, but I didn’t get itchy, so I was super happy about that. Although, I was in my head in it a lot about it. If you think about being itchy, you can find an itch on your body right now. You know? So it was hard not to be paranoid about it. 

But ultimately, I avoided getting it which was great. So I didn’t have to be induced, because I was worried about that. My pregnancy continued to progress and I did again go past 40 weeks. There were times when I was mentally struggling, but my husband, and my doula, and photographer were super supportive. I was able to lean in on them for support.

I did start having a little bit of prodromal labor about 40 weeks and that was really exhausting, but it was reassuring that something was happening. I was taking the wins where I could find them. As I approached 41 weeks, I started to feel a little bit of pressure about how late I was going to go again. I did agree and scheduled an ultrasound to check on the fluid and check on the baby, but I made it very clear that I would not consent to them measuring my baby because I just thought, “What good does it do to talk about the size of my baby at this point? I know I grow big babies. It’s got to come out one way or the other.”

Julie: Yes!

Francis: Let’s just not even talk about it.

Julie: Absolutely.

Francis: There were a couple of the midwives that would make comments about it that rubbed me the wrong way, but I did my best to just brush it off. Because again, this baby is coming out, so what good does it to really think too much about how big it’s gonna be?

As luck would have it though, I didn’t even get to that ultrasound. I didn’t have to put my foot down, but I was prepared to, to not have them measure my baby. So I ended up going into labor on my own. It was about 41 weeks. I happened to have an appointment with my favorite midwife and she just put me into this really peaceful place. Sure enough, that night, I went into labor.

It started overnight and was kind of slow. My husband was in the other room, so I was up by myself for a bit and about 5:30 in the morning, I realized I was struggling to cope on my own. So I woke him up and he came into the room with me. About an hour later, he ended up calling our doula. Actually this time, we were only allowed one support person in the hospital other than my husband, so our photographer who had been with us before was double dutying as my doula.

Julie: Nice. That’s called a doula-tog. A doula photographer. I do that sometimes.

Francis: Yeah. She’s been with us in all of our births and she’s had birth experiences of her own that she can really relate to, so she was really great filling both rolls. She came over because my husband, and we laugh about this now, but he was like, “You were making noises that I was really scared of.” So he called her over to help me and my labor did slow down a bit, when things kind of picked up. Some people came over to pick up my other children. I think that’s pretty normal. 

But then once everyone left and my birth space was undisturbed, my labor really picked up really quickly. I was contracting about every 3 to 4 minutes I think. A solid minute contraction and after a little bit, I started throwing up. In my labor with my son, I started throwing up when I was pretty far along, so I was like, oh my gosh. Maybe this is really happening quickly. Like, we should go to the hospital.

We headed over to the hospital which was about 30 minutes and not really a fun drive, but we made it. We got checked in and I knew I wanted to labor in the tub for a little bit. They just have hospital, small tubs but I was allowed to get in and they had the wireless monitors. I wanted to get checked just to know where I was starting from and I was only a 2. I was so defeated.

Julie: Oh, that is so discouraging. Oh my gosh.

Francis: Yeah. Yeah, I know. There’s part of me that regrets finding out but it is what it is, right? But I knew at that point, I was like, “Okay. I am going to switch my mindset.” I already saw drugs in my future which I had decided I was totally okay with, but I wanted to see how much farther I could get. So I got in the tub and it really slowed down my labor, so my doula made me get out. I think I fussed and complained at her. I got out and I tried nitrous, but it did nothing for me. I’m honestly not even sure if that thing was actually working. 

I decided at that point, I was like, “Just give me the epidural.” The other thing too is, maybe this is coming from a little bit of an athletic background, I was really having trouble holding tension in my pelvic floor and in my bum. I just couldn’t release, and so I knew that the epidural would help with that. That’s one of the things that I have learned on this podcast and listening to other women’s stories is that sometimes you can use these interventions to your advantage. Getting an epidural doesn’t mean that that’s the end of it for you. You can use it as a tool in your tool kit.

Julie: Absolutely. It’s available if you need it.

Francis: Exactly. I knew at that point I did need it. So I got the epidural. I was only 3 centimeters and that really scared me because I really wanted to be farther along, but I did it anyway. I labored for a bit and then I got checked again and I was– I probably had been at the hospital about 12 hours at this point. I’m still only 3 cm and I was like, “What am I doing? Like why am I doing this?”

The midwife that happened to be on call was such a saint. I look back and I’m like, “I couldn’t have landed with a better midwife for me.” She looked me in the eyes. She said, “I will not recommend anything that will put you and your baby in harms way, but I will do everything in my power to help you achieve a vaginal birth.” It was just so reassuring to really know that she had my back. We did start Pitocin at that point, which I know can be a little bit controversial in a VBAC or a VBAC after more than one Cesarean, but we did a really slow Pitocin and I could tell it was working. I did have an epidural, but I could feel it working.

I continued to labor throughout the night into the early morning. I tried to catch some rest, but there were definitely times I was looking around and like, my husband was trying to sleep on the floor and our doula photographer was there with us this whole time and I was just like, “Gosh.” I felt almost guilty, like I was putting them through the ringer with me. I just kept having these feelings like, “Will I end up in another Cesarean? I’m doing all this for nothing.”

But I tried to quiet those doubts as much as I could and at one point in the middle of the night, I felt a pop and a gush of fluid. I called the nurse and I was like, “Hey, either I’ve just peed myself or my water broke.” She came in and confirmed it was my waters, so that was exciting.

Julie: Yay!

Francis: I was like, “Okay. Something’s happening, right?” And then, as I was laying there trying to catch some rest, I could feel that I was having some pressure in my bum and my sacrum, but I didn’t want to get too excited, so I kept it to myself. It was probably about 3 o’clock in the morning. My midwife had been tending to a couple of other women and she was going to try to catch some rest, so she was like, “Well, let me just check you really quick.” When she was doing it, I knew that it was a do or die moment for me. If I hadn’t progressed anymore at that point, I felt like that was going to be it. So I was really, really nervous.

She went to check me. She didn’t say a word and she had this poker face. She checked me. She went to the sink and washed up. My heart is pounding, right? Like, “Oh my gosh.” She walks over to my bedside and then she looks at me and she said, “Francis? You’re more dilated than you’ve ever been in your life.”

Julie: Yay!

Francis: And I just– yeah. I let out this scream and everybody in the room was cheering. I think the nurse might have even shed a tear. That was the first moment where I was like, “Oh my god. This might actually happen.” So I did labor down a little bit longer and at one point, the nurse rushed in. She had me change positions and got me on my hands and knees and I knew. She wasn’t saying anything, but I knew that that meant they were having some sort of concern about baby. I tried not to panic, but I was really scared.

The midwife got called in. She gave me another check and she was like, “You’re at 10 centimeters. Let’s just get this baby out.” So I was like, “Let’s do it.”

Julie: “Let’s do it.” I love it.

Francis: So my doula was like, “Hey, do you want the squat bar?” I was like, “Yes. Give me the squat bar.” Coming from an athletic background, I was so excited to feel useful. I was like, “Alright. Let’s go.”

I had never pushed before, so I didn’t know what that was like. I was being coached. I was using the squat bar, basically squatting on the bed using the bar and apparently, according to the midwife, was really doing a good job. After about 45 minutes, my baby was right there. She was like, “Come down. Touch your baby’s head.” I touched his head, and then she had me lean back a little bit. We did some of those slow, panty pushes to do it pretty slowly.

I felt my baby’s head come out, and then she had me push again for the shoulders. I could tell when I did that that she had a little bit of trouble, but he ended up coming out really without a problem.

I really wanted to catch my baby. My husband was amazing support throughout all of it, but he had zero interest in being part of that process. And so I was like, “Well, I want to catch my baby then.” So my midwife was like, “Well, reach down and catch your baby!” So I reached down and she helped me, and I brought him up to my chest. He was beautiful and perfect, and it was that moment that I know we all dream about. Our photographer caught that moment and I have shared it on your Facebook page before. It’s a little bit graphic. Not too much so, but it was just– you can see it in my face. I was just in heaven.

My baby was on my chest for all of the nurse checks and everything. I remember when he was laying there, I was like, “Oh, I think he’s my smallest baby. He’s so small.” And then finally, they came and took him to do the weight and the measurements, and he ended up being 10 lbs. 12 oz. and 22.5 inches.

Julie: Wow!

Francis: He was not my biggest baby, but my second biggest and I just couldn’t believe it. You know? Like, “Oh my gosh. I pushed that baby out of my body!”

Meagan: Yeah!

Francis: I did have some tearing. It was a third-degree tear and my midwife said it was from his shoulders. She did say he didn’t have dystocia, but she had to give some traction, I think, is what she said. But I was repaired right there in labor and delivery and honestly, I didn’t care because I had my baby with me and I was just in euphoria.

The recovery was not a walk in the park, but so much better than a Cesarean. I avoided major abdominal surgery. 

One of the things in my birth plan– I had this long birth plan– but at the very beginning, I said that I had birth goals. These were my goals. This is where I’ll get emotional. Sorry. I said, “I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.” 

At the end of the day, my birth checked all those boxes. I couldn’t have asked for more. I have no doubt that your podcast played a huge role in my success. If me sharing my story can help just one other woman achieve her own birth goals, then I am just overjoyed. So thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to share my story.

Julie: Aww.

Meagan: Wow. I have tears in my eyes right now.

Francis: Aww. You guys are so sweet.

Meagan: I just felt that. When you were talking about when you reached down and grabbed your baby, it was like I was flashing back to my son‘s birth. I just remember that feeling and I was feeling it for you. It’s such an incredible feeling to reach down there and feel the baby’s head, and pull him out, and have that support, and what your midwife said too. I am so happy for you and so proud of you.

Francis: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Like I said, I really, truly feel like I could not have done it without you guys. I really mean that. I know you’ve heard that before, but it’s the truth.

Julie: Well, I just don’t think– I can safely speak for Meagan when I say we probably won’t ever get tired of hearing that. We love it!

Meagan: I don’t think we will because this is what we are here for. This is what we want to do. We want to help. We want to empower. We want to inspire. We want to guide. We want to educate. We want to create that community where it’s not even just us, right? It’s you guys helping others and feeling that support all around the world. You have people rooting for you and you don’t even know where they are at. That’s what we want. That’s what we want. We want our mission here too be better and make birth after Cesarean better. Sometimes, that means a repeat Cesarean and that’s okay. Listen to how healing it can be.

Francis: Yeah.

Meagan: Especially coming back for the first podcast after taking so much time, it’s so refreshing to hear, “Hey, this is still what people love and this is what people want. They want to hear the stories. They want to see all the stories.” The emotion I just felt with you sharing your story, and I’m not even pregnant or having anymore kids and I’m feeling it. I’m just imagining being in that room with you guys and cheering as you’re the furthest dilated that you’ve ever been. That’s such a huge moment. Just so many fun things. I am so glad to be back.

Julie: Yeah. I love it. I think it’s so incredible. I just think back– I know Meagan, maybe you are doing the same thing, just all the births I have attended as a doula and now I get to do that as a birth photographer– of parents who have had these babies over 10 pounds. I feel like sometimes maybe the big ones come out a little bit easier because they have gravity working on their side, right? Gravity gets to pull on them a little bit easier.

Francis: True.

Julie: I am on call right now for a threepeat doula client, my third time being her doula. The babies that I was with for her last two, one was over 9 pounds and one was over 10. It’s not a VBAC birth, but her babies– She’s 5’1” by the way. She’s 5’1” and very petite. She births these ginormous, sumo wrestler babies. It’s just so fun to watch her labor and birth because she just doesn’t hold still. She’s constantly moving. There’s a lot to say about giving the birthing person time, and freedom, and space, and ability to let their body do what it needs to do instead of jumping to conclusions about the babies size and the ability of whether it will or will not work.

I think that that’s really cool that your midwife supported you in that way. It’s really just neat when you hear about providers wanting the type of birth you wanna just as much as you do and it really kind of felt like that’s what happened there for you. So it’s really cool.

Francis: Yeah. It did. It’s kind of funny because when I was seeking out opinions about whether I should go for a VBAC or not, and then of course just checking myself, honestly, the fact that I grow really big babies was almost not even brought up. It was all of the other things that were more concerning. Like the scar tissue, or my age, or potentially having cholestasis and maybe having to get induced or just go for a repeat Cesarean. So it was interesting to me. One of the things I think I was most fearful of when I was thinking about having a VBAC was whether my baby would be too big, but my provider almost didn’t even care. Do you know?

Julie: I love that.

Francis: That surprised me.

Five Tips for Birthing Big Babies

Julie: I love that. I love it a lot. Alright well, we are going to wrap it up but before we do, we have a blog all about big babies and how we can have the best chance at gettingg that big baby out vaginally. We are going to link it for you in the show notes. I am going to go over five tips for you right now. The first one is knowing the facts about macrosomia, which just means “big baby”. Macrosomia– it’s really interesting because different organizations define what makes a baby big differently. Some places define it as a baby that’s larger than 8 lbs. 13 oz. and some places define it as bigger than 9 lbs. 4 oz. I mean, your babies checked both of those boxes. So that’s okay. So either way, 8 lbs. 13 oz. or 9 lbs. 4 oz. 

So sometimes, there is a little bit of flexibility about what really makes s baby big. And also know that estimated fetal weight– the only way to actually know the actual size of your baby is birthing the baby and getting the measurements after it’s born. Ultrasound scans are notoriously inaccurate about measuring gestational weight. They can be off by a pound or two difference like yours. Your first was still really big, but about a pound different than what they measured it, right?

Francis: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Julie: Yeah. The second thing you can do to help get a big baby out is hire a doula. Studies show that having a doula improves just about every single aspect of your birth and delivering a large baby is no exception about that. A skilled doula will help you communicate your needs and your perceptions to help realize your dream of having a healthy, positive birthing experience. 

There are actually a lot of statistics that prove how doulas improve birth outcomes. They actually reduce your chances of having a C-section by 39% which is really cool for my data-junkie brain. 

The third thing you can do is move as much as possible, even with an epidural. Moving, switching sides, even just moving your legs a little bit every few contractions is going to help keep your pelvis being flexible and help create that space for your baby to move down. 

We say in our blog, “ditch the epidural”, but you don’t actually have to to have an unmedicated birth in order to birth or to have a VBAC or to have any vaginal delivery. Go as long as you can without getting it, but it’s okay if that’s a lower number than you want. As we talked about earlier, an epidural is a great tool to have in your toolbox if you need it. Knowing how to use an epidural and how to move, and a doula is a great way to help you utilize this tool properly. As long as you are not laying down and staying still in one spot for too long, that’s the biggest thing you need to take away from that.

And the fifth one, we say, “believe in your body.” I know I’m probably going to get a lot of eye rolls for this. “Believe in your body. Woosah. You can’t always manifest your baby your out.” Yes. That is very true. Sometimes things happen, and interventions are needed, and Cesareans are life-saving. We definitely believe that and we have seen it. But there is a lot to be said in believing in yourself, and believing in your baby, your body that knows that it can do this and that it is designed for the birth process, and having that confidence going into it and having the confidence in yourself, and your birth team, and your support environment. If you don’t have that confidence, do whatever you need to do or change whatever you need to change in order to create that confidence and that belief in your environment because where doubt exists, that brings in the uncertainty that can shift your entire birth experience.

I’m going to end that with a period and an exclamation point. Meagan, what would you add in there? I’ve been talking for a few minutes.

Meagan: No, you’re just fine. I mean, I feel like we have talked about the intuition and mama’s gut the whole time. But I love that during your pregnancy and everything, you were able to hone in on that and not only learn what intuition necessarily is, but how to really tune into it because especially for birth and especially for a VBAC– I want to say it’s for anyone. It really is, but with VBAC, there is so much coming at us with all the things. For instance, when you went to that different provider and they were like, “Yeah, no. Not one person in this hospital is going to touch you. Like, no.” A lot of people would be like, “Oh, okay. There’s that many doctors that won’t even see me. I better just have a C-section,” which is totally fine if that’s what their intuition is how they feel. 

But a lot of the time, I feel like it’s hard to tune into that intuition and to be like, “Wait. I still feel like I should probably still get some other opinions.” Right? Versus just being told what I said to you. I think that if we can, in life in general, just learn how to tune in to that intuition and really how to follow it, I think it’s going to help us in so many things in life in general. That’s one of the highlights of your story that I got because I had to personally work through a lot of that during my pregnancy because I was told that I would rupture if VBAC’d and I didn’t realize how much that impacted me, but it impacted me. But my intuition was telling me otherwise, right? Anyway. That was one of the biggest things I took away. One of the biggest takeaways from your story is learning how to hone in on your intuition, following it, and trusting it. Trusting your gut.

Francis: Yeah, precisely. Hit it on the nose.

Julie: Alight.

Meagan: I– yeah.

Julie: Oh, go ahead.

Meagan: I was just going to say, I love it. I loved everything about your story. So thank you so much for kicking us off with such a great empowering story.

Julie: Yes. It was the perfect story for our welcome back. Francis, it was such a joy to have you on and share your story today. But before we leave, we want to ask you– I think I might know what the answer is– but I am going to ask anyways. What is your best tip for somebody preparing for birth after Cesarean?

Francis: Well first, I thought you were going to ask whether I was going to have more children. And I am like, “Hard no.”

Julie: I’m right there with you.

Francis: That door has been closed. Yeah. I think it is, it’s what I think– Meagan, what you just talked about is learning, taking the time to focus on yourself and your mental health. I think ideally before you get pregnant, but you can obviously do that while you’re pregnant if you’re already pregnant. But taking the time to really focus on your mental health and learn how to trust yourself because we all have good instincts. We just have to know where to find them sometimes.

Julie: Oh I love that. “We all have good instincts. We have to know where to find them sometimes.” I’m going to make a social media post about that. Just one second while I write it down.

Francis: You guys are too sweet. I appreciate it.

Julie: Maybe it will go on a shirt. I don’t know. I need to start making shirts again.

Meagan: I know.

Francis: Do I need to trademark that real quick?

Julie: Yes, you need to.

Meagan: She’s like, “Wait a second.” Yeah. Trademark that for sure.

Julie: I will credit you. What’s your social media? Should I tag you?

Francis: No no, not necessary. Thank you though.

Julie: Okay. Speaking of shirts, we do have a bunch of VBAC shirts available for you to purchase if you want to rock, and represent, and support the podcast. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/bonfire if you want to head over there and rock some swag from the VBAC shop. 

So, Francis. You’re amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today and everybody else, good luck on your journey. We are so excited to be back along for the ride with you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Happy New Year! We are kicking off 2023 with a podcast filled with doulas. Meagan is joined by one of our VBAC Link-trained doulas, Sarah, to welcome our guest, Holly. Holly is a wife, mama, RN, doula, and placenta encapsulator. 

Holly’s first birth was a planned Cesarean due to breech presentation. Her second birth was a hospital VBAC with a long labor. Her most recent birth was a redemptive, quick, and dreamy HBAC (almost in her toilet)!

Holly shares her tips on keeping a positive mindset through weeks of prodromal labor and how she was able to fight doubts and fears to achieve her beautiful HBAC. 

Additional Links

Holly’s Doula Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello and happy 2023. I cannot believe we are starting a new year off, but I can’t wait to see where this year takes us. Today, we have Sarah. She is back today. She actually was on a little bit ago, but we had some time craziness so we are having her back on for a full episode. So welcome, Sarah. 

Sarah: Hello, glad to be back. 

Meagan: So happy to have you back. So fun to be cohosting with our VBAC doulas. If you guys did not know, we have a VBAC doula certification for VBAC and we are going to start hearing from some of our VBAC doulas because I’m going to have them on here and there as cohosts. I’m so excited to have them on, share where they’re at, and of course, have them be a part of this amazing community too. Sharing these stories and hearing these stories on the podcast seriously lights my day up. So on those days where I’m like, “Okay, we’ve got 4 hours of podcasts.” 

A lot of people might dread 4 hours of work, but I don’t see it as 4 hours of work. I see it as 4 hours of inspiration and motivation for me to keep going on The VBAC Link and to share these stories with you. 

Review of the Week

We have our friend Holly today and she’s going to share her VBAC story but I’m going to have Sarah read a Review of the Week before we do. 

Sarah: Okay. This review is from Apple Podcasts and I hope I’m saying this username correctly, but it’s Kyeiwaaglover. 

Meagan: Yeah. When I saw that I was like, “Kyoa?”

Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover, I believe, and it says, “As a doula, I’m grateful for platforms like this to refer to clients and for me to learn as well. “

Meagan: I love that. It’s kind of fun. Today, we’ve got me, Sarah, Holly, and then Kyeiwaaglover– I don’t even know how to say it. 

Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover. That’s what I’m going with. 

Meagan: Yes. We are all doulas. A fun background story about Holly is she is actually a registered nurse by trade but after her VBAC, she found the passion like a lot of us and has since become a doula and a placenta encapsulator. I think it’s fun how we’re sharing a VBAC story, but together, even with the review, I didn’t even make that connection until you just said that, but we’re all doulas today so yay for doulas. I’m so excited to get into Holly’s story. 

Holly’s Stories

Meagan: Okay everybody. Holly, thank you so much for taking the time today to share your story. I know you’ve got your little one in a wrap strapped to your chest. So stinking adorable. How old is your baby? 

Holly: He is 7 weeks today. 

Meagan: 7 weeks!

Holly: So we’re going on 2 months. 

Meagan: Just really little and he was trying to turn into the camera. 

Holly: I know. 

Meagan: Well, we would love to turn the time over to you to share your VBAC story. And of course, your C-section story too if you would like.

Holly: Absolutely. I have a bit of a journey with my birth stories. My first daughter is 4.5 now, so I was pregnant a little over 5 years ago with her. I was finishing up nursing school. I was really into the medical model of care at that point just being in nursing school and getting all of that information. 

During my pregnancy, it was my last semester, and I was with a midwife at a clinic. I overall had a great pregnancy and great care. I finished nursing school, took my MCLETS, finished everything, and so we were in the last few weeks of pregnancy and I got to about 41 weeks with her and we had those tests at the end so you can check to see their growth. 

Meagan: It’s like a third-trimester ultrasound where they go through everything. 

Holly: You go overdue and they’re like, “Let’s make sure everything’s okay.” Blah blah blah. A bunch of time went by and they can’t tell you anything in the ultrasounds, and then my midwife had called me later that evening and she’s like, “You know, your baby is actually breech and these are my recommendations,” and so on. At that point, I still had prepared myself for a natural birth. I didn’t want to do an epidural. I wanted as few interventions as possible. I didn’t even think of that as a thing that could happen, so it just tore my heart out. 

At 41 weeks, you’re so emotional and so full of hormones so it took a long time for me to process it. I went and had a consult with an OB at the local hospital and they were like, “Well, we could try turning the baby, but at this point, you’re 41 weeks. There’s a lot of risk to it.” They’re like, “Basically, your only option is a C-section.” I’m like, “Okay.”

I didn’t have all of the education and resources that I have now, so at that point, I had to put a lot of trust into the medical system and took their word for it and we had a planned C-section with her. But I was 41.5 weeks by the time we actually scheduled it, so it wasn’t an emergency. They were like, “If you go into labor, it’s an emergency, but we’ll still schedule it for 3 or 4 days from now.”

Overall, my C-section went really well. I was able to have my baby skin-to-skin right away. She never left me. We stayed together which was awesome. I had a really good recovery from that, thank God. There weren’t huge traumas with it but once I got pregnant with my second, I realized how actually traumatic emotionally it was for me, so it took a lot of healing and processing to be able to give myself that second chance and to go for my first VBAC. 

About a year and a half later, I got pregnant with my second daughter. She is now 2.5 years old. At that point, I really had gotten into more– I was still working as a nurse and I had really gotten into more of natural living and natural solutions and just a holistic view of health. I had hired a doula. At that point, I was interviewing providers at the hospital and I hired a doula who was going through midwifery school. 

She was just a wealth of knowledge. I had a doula with my first baby, but it wasn’t what I had expected out of a doula, unfortunately. But, my doula with my second baby was absolutely incredible. She just provided me with so much information and was there for me to support me, to help me through all of my emotions with my first birth. So talking with her about the providers I had interviewed and told her, “I still don’t feel comfortable choosing one.” She was like, “Well, have you given home birth a thought or hiring a midwife?” I’m like, “Well, there are no midwives at the hospital that will take me because they can’t take VBACs at the hospital.”

And in Minnesota, home midwives are allowed to take on VBACs at home. They don’t have huge restrictions there on the home birth midwives so I’m like, “Okay, well maybe. I don’t know. There are these risks that I’m not sure if I’m comfortable with that right now.” She’s like, “Well, either way, you can always just interview one and get the information so you have both sides so you know which way you want to choose and you are fully informed.” I said, “Yeah. You’re right.” 

So my husband and I interviewed a couple of midwives. One of them was a little iffy with taking us on. She didn’t seem very comfortable with VBAC which was fine and another one was pretty good. She was more medically minded and then I interviewed a third midwife. She had a lot of experience with VBACs and was just overall matched really well with us. We ended up choosing to home birth with my second baby. 

That whole prenatal care with our home birth midwife was incredible. The prenatal care alone was just so different from a clinical setting. I was about 40 weeks at that point and we were going for our home birth. You get to that 40-week mark and you’re just like, “Okay. When is this going to happen? I’m so ready to have this baby,” but also trying to trust your body and knowing when that time is right. 

So I was a couple of days away from 42 weeks and labor happened spontaneously. I labored at home with my doula and then my midwife came later on. My husband was there and my mom was there. I labored for a total of 24 hours and we ended up suspecting after checking my cervix and checking baby’s position that she was stuck. Her head was flexed, so her chin was up instead of tucked down to her chest, so she was stuck on my pelvic bone for quite a while. 

After assessing the risks and everything, we ultimately decided to transfer to the hospital. The hospital was 5 minutes from us so it was one of those things where it was comforting knowing that it was so close, but also, in this pregnancy and in this experience with my second, I really had a hard time letting go of control and really trusting my body fully 100%. I think that also kind of affected the way I labored and my thought process. 

We transferred to the hospital and had a really great resident doctor. She was incredible. She was like, “You know, do your thing. Do what you need to do. Just let us know what you need.” The OB that was there was a different story, but I ended up laboring there for about 8 more hours and that included about an hour and a half of pushing. I had my first VBAC at the hospital and she came out just screaming and crying, eyes wide open. I just remember crying and saying, “We did it. We did it.” I couldn’t believe it. I was just in shock and it was very healing. 

But later on, I found that there were still parts of it that were a little traumatic for me and I had things to heal from with that birth too even though I had successfully had a VBAC, it was different and not fully what I expected. 

So that leads me to my third and final baby here. We again decided to plan for a home birth. My daughter was a little less than 2 and my other daughter a little less than 4 when we got pregnant with him. Again, we decided to home-birth and my husband was like, “Are you sure? Last time we ended up going to the hospital. Do you think that’s just going to be easier if we just plan for that this time?”

I said, “No. Absolutely not. We’re having this baby at home.” My mindset was so different. I started as a doula after my second daughter was born and I had really gotten into that natural birth and trusting your body and just knowing that our bodies were designed for this. Our bodies were perfectly designed for birth. Yes, there are times when medical intervention is needed, but really, I just was so in this mindset of, “I can do this. This is it. This is my redemption. I know I can do this.” 

I didn’t even have to interview any midwives. I actually hired my doula from my second birth. She had become a midwife and was practicing and I just instantly knew her philosophy and her beliefs surrounding birth were exactly what I needed in my prenatal care and my birth, everything. We started seeing her from about 16 weeks onward and so we had all of our prenatal care at home. It was incredible. She really put everything into my hands which was what I wanted. I wanted control of the tests that we did and that we didn’t do, everything. 

We weren’t going to have an ultrasound to find out the sex but ultimately, my husband and I agreed to have a 20-week ultrasound at 23 weeks. We found out the sex and we were just so surprised and so happy because we were having a boy and if we were having a girl too, of course, we would have been just as happy, but at that point, I could get rid of all my girl clothes and start organizing and getting ready. It was just one of those things that my heart needed. 

So with my midwife that we had, like I said, she really put the control in my hands. I felt so much respect from her and I felt like in every decision I made, I was fully informed. I understood everything. I made the decisions that were best for me and my baby and our family. Leading up to my birth, those few weeks before, we talked about fears and if there was anything I needed to process before my labor. This time I was like, “No. Really, I feel good. I don’t have any fears.” 

There was a part of me that was like, “What if we do transfer to the hospital?” but the other part of me was like, “Don’t worry about that. Put that out. You’ve done it before. You know what to do,” so I put that part out of my head too. I was like, “Nope. We’re having this baby at home.” We actually were planning to move cross country down to South Carolina in September so my midwife was like, “Do you feel okay about this timeline you’re on?” I’m like, “Oh yeah. I’ll go to 42 weeks and I’ll still have 3 weeks before we have to move. It’ll be fine.” She was just like, “I can’t believe you’re fine with that.” 

I’m like, “Yeah. I feel totally good about it. I have so much support.” My husband’s family was coming right after the baby was born. The amount of support we had was exactly what we needed and I’m so thankful for that. 

Near the end of my pregnancy with our son, there were a couple of points where we actually thought he was breech, and those brought back a lot of feelings. I kept telling my midwife throughout my pregnancy, “This pregnancy feels a lot like my first just my cravings and everything.” She was like, “Okay.” We ended up thinking he was breech and I’m like, “Oh great. Here we go.” 

But at that point, I was like, “It doesn’t matter what position he’s in, I’m still letting myself go into labor. If he was breech, I was still going to birth him vaginally and everything.” It didn’t matter to me but it was also like, “Okay, I have to prepare for this if this is a change of plans.” Another midwife locally has a little ultrasound that you can plug into your phone, so we checked quickly to see where his head was just so we could confirm and prepare if needed and she was like, “Yeah, I think he is breech. I think this is his head up here.” She was like, “Let me check a little bit lower,” so we checked a little bit lower, but it turns out that his head was super, super deep in my pelvis. I’m sure I probably was dilated too to maybe 2 or 3 with him because he was just so low in my pelvis that they were feeling his shoulders when they would palpate.

I threw that out of the window. He was head down. We were good to go. The next few weeks, I was about 39 weeks, maybe a little before that, and I started having prodromal labor. I kept referring to it as that and I’d have contractions all day long, all day long, and then I’d go to sleep at night and they’d go away. Nothing would happen. They were fine. They weren’t contractions where I’m like, “Oh man,” trying to breathe through or anything, but they were uncomfortable and they had changed from Braxton Hicks because I had Braxton Hicks throughout my pregnancy too. 

So they had changed. They were stronger and lower. It was just one of those things which messes with your head. You’re like, “Okay. Could this be it? No, probably not. I’m just going to go to sleep,” and when you wake up in the morning, it’s like, “Okay. No baby.” 

Weeks of that and it was just physically exhausting, mentally exhausting and then you get family who are like, “When’s the baby coming?” You’re like, “I don’t know.” You want to tune everyone out, but at the same time, you can still hear them and you get in your own head. That’s why now, with my own clients, I’m like, “Don’t tell anyone your due date. Just don’t. Tell them your birth month. Sometime in August. That is it,” because people mean well and they don’t necessarily mean to be pushy with it, but–

Meagan: I know. 

Holly: –-it’s just one of those things where it doesn’t help. It really doesn’t. And then there was one weekend, I got up and I was 41 and 2 or 3 days. That weekend, I just told my husband, “We just need to go. I need to get out of the house. I need to go out and do things all day long. I don’t want to be here contracting.” He’s like, “Okay. All right. That’s fine.” So we took the girls and we went to my sister’s camper and we were there all day swimming and hanging out. I started having contractions like, “Oh man,” like twinging pains in my cervix. I’m like, “Okay. This is different. Maybe something’s happening. I’m going to be patient and keep myself busy.” 

I went to the bathroom later on around dinnertime. I had actually brought my daughter to the bathroom and I’m like, “Okay, I’ll go too.” I wiped and I’m like, “Oh my god, there’s some mucus plug on my toilet paper. Yes. Things are happening. Okay. Back to trusting my body and knowing that everything is happening at the right time.” 

I went out, of course, and told my husband. He was like, “Okay. Do we need to go?” I’m like, “No. We’re fine. We’re going to stay here. We’re going to finish our day then go home.” We went home and there were more contractions. It felt like there were more. Actually, a week before this– I forgot to mention this– my midwife was like, “Stop referring to it as prodromal labor. Think of it as early labor.” I’m like, “Okay. I’ve been in early labor for 2 weeks now. That’s not helping, but okay.” 

Meagan: Well, I will say this though. Sometimes when we tell our clients, “Oh, it looks like it’s prodromal labor,” they’re like, “So you’re telling me that I’m not laboring?” So maybe if we change it to early labor, it’s just– I don’t know. Like you said, it’s just a really long early labor. 

Holly: Yeah. I know. And it kind of helps. It’s all a process. It’s all doing something. It’s not for nothing. My body was doing– I don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t in the right position where my body wanted to birth him, but he wasn’t finding the right position. 

Meagan: That’s a lot of the time the reason why prodromal labor happens because our uterus is brilliant and it’s trying to work and get our baby into the right spot before labor begins. 

Holly: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So much yes. So the next morning came around, I’m like, “Okay. I slept all night. That’s great, but nothing happened. Okay. What are we going to do today?” So we drove 45 minutes north to my dad’s house and my husband was like, “Do you think this is too far?” I’m like, “No, this is fine.” I thought this was going to be our last time at my dad’s house before we had a baby and then move. I’m like, “This is what I need.” 

So we spent the day on the lake swimming and just hanging out. I still had those contractions and twinging. I’m like, “Okay. This is good. We’re just having a nice time,” and then we went home and had dinner and went on a walk with our girls. I think it was that night, we had a couple of friends over. They were fixing something in my husband’s car. I went back inside and got my girls to sleep. I went to the bathroom and I noticed even more mucus plug that night. 

I was like, “Okay. Awesome. We’re on the right path still.” I went to sleep that night. Actually, early, early Monday– because that was a Sunday night– so early Monday morning at 3:00 AM, I was waking up to these stronger contractions and I was sleeping, but I was breathing through them. I could tell that it was more than what it was before. That morning comes and I told my husband. He actually had an interview for a new job that day virtually. He was like, “Well, I have to be at this interview.” I’m like, “Okay. It’s fine. We’re not going to have a baby yet.” 

I went throughout that day and I had these contractions where I was breathing through them. I was stopping what I was doing and shushing my girls and being like, “I need this moment to get through this, and then we’re good.” My midwives came over to check on me and my contractions stopped. They went away. 

I was like, “Okay. This is obviously my body telling me that I need alone time.” They left and my contractions started coming back again. My girls were around. They are 4 and 2. They were just nuts at this point. It’s kind of like my body knew to pull back for a while and then I actually went to Target with my mom Monday afternoon. We bought a rocking chair. I’m like, “I need a chair. This is going to happen soon. “ I wasn’t going to get one because we were moving and then I’m like, “Nope. We’re just going to do it.” 

We were walking around Target and I’m just having these contractions and stopping and she goes, “Are you sure we’re okay to be here?” I’m like, “It’s fine. Everything’s fine. It’s not happening yet.” I’m just in denial. We get home and we do our nightly walks with the girls and I’m curb walking and just trying to get things to keep going and get stronger. I texted my midwife. I’m like, “Yeah, they’re like 10 minutes apart. Definitely stronger and lower and more painful, so yeah. We’ll see what happens later.” She’s like, “Okay. Whatever.”

That night, we were outside and my daughter Hannah is my two-year-old. She’s like, “I’m ready to go to bed.” I’m like, “Okay. Let’s go.” We get her inside and my husband and my other daughter were outside playing still. I got her to bed and we just cuddled in her bed and got all of that oxytocin flowing. Then after that, my contractions were really starting to pick up and started to get a little closer together. They were about 8 minutes at this point. I started texting my husband. I’m like, “Where are you? Where’s Callie? You need to get her to bed.” 

I called my husband’s parents and I’m like, “Can you pray for me? I want you to pray over me now. I feel like something’s going to happen here soon and maybe tonight’s the night.” So just having that prayer really helped me calm down and really settle down. Then after that, my husband comes in with my daughter. She’s not wanting to go to sleep and keeps coming out of her room. I told him, I’m like, “Okay.” I don’t know what came over me, but I’m like, “You need to get her to bed right now. She cannot be out here anymore. I can’t do this.” 

He goes, “Okay, all right.” Finally, she goes to sleep and stays in her room. He’s in there with her until she falls asleep. So I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to make myself some toast and a snack and some tea and relax a little bit. Maybe just go to sleep.” So I’m in my kitchen and all of a sudden, this contraction just comes over my whole entire body. I’m like, “Oh man. This is it. This is the one. This is the start of it.” Finally, I took myself out of denial. I’m like, “Okay. Things are going to happen.” At the top of this contraction, I’m standing at the kitchen sink, and my water breaks. 

My husband is in my daughter’s room. I don’t have my phone on me and I’m just like, “Oh my god. Oh my god.”

Meagan: Like, “Okay. This isn’t going to stop. I don’t think this is going to stop.” 

Holly: I know. I’m like, “This is real now. My water broke. This is actually happening.” It took my water breaking for me to actually believe it at this point. Thankfully, I was actually standing over a rug by my kitchen sink. I’m like, “Okay. This is great. I’m on a rug, but I want to move. I don’t want to walk down to my room.” I stand there for a minute and I’m like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Jason!” My husband’s name is Jason. He doesn’t hear me of course because he’s in my daughter’s room and so then I finally waddle all down the hallway down to our room. I get my phone and I text him. I said, “My water broke.” He texts back, “Great!”

I don’t know what he was thinking. I called my midwife and I was really calm. I was like, “Hey, my water broke and things are happening.” She goes, “Okay, great. How far apart are your contractions?” I’m like, “They’re probably 6-8 minutes, 8ish minutes I guess.” She goes, “Okay, well why don’t you time them for the next half hour and then text me and let me know how they are?” So I’m like, “Okay, I have some time.” 

Little did I know, she was actually texting my husband, “I’m on my way. I’ll be there as soon as I can.” She’s like, “I don’t want to miss your birth.” My husband finally comes out of the room. I wasn’t panicking but moreso excited and being like, “Okay. It’s happening. This is it. This is what we’ve been preparing for and waiting for.” At this point, I was just emotional every day about wanting to have my baby and not be pregnant anymore. 

He was like, “Okay, great. What do you need from me?” At this point, I’m already cleaning up our room, and not because we were having our midwives but mostly because I wanted our room to be prepared. I had everything set up like my twinkle lights and my affirmations, everything. So at that point, my contractions were 3-4 minutes apart. So as soon as my water broke, they really got going. I was really starting to labor through them now and breathing and moaning and doing all of the labor things. I found my ideal position of laboring. I was on my knees hunched over my bed because my bed was just on the floor at that point.

My husband was telling me, “What can I do? How can I help?” With my first VBAC, I had this weird, sharp, dull pain. It was so hard to describe. It was on my right leg from my butt all the way down to my heel. It was awful. It never went away. I couldn’t find anything that made it comfortable, so I’m like, “Can you just massage my legs? I have that same pain this time through every contraction.” I think that was the only fearful thing. I didn’t want to have that this time and of course, I did. So I’m like, “Just massage my legs,” so he grabbed some [towels] and he was massaging my leg through every contraction in between and then he was doing counterpressure on my back. 

At this point, things were really picking up very fast. So my water broke at about 8:40ish and then my midwife and her assistant midwife and then another student got there at about 9:40 because she lived about 45 minutes away. So then they got there and I was really in labor land and just really in the thick of it and I just remember thinking, “Why am I not getting a break? These contractions just keep coming quicker and quicker and I’m not having as much time in between. Why am I not getting a break?”

She goes, “Well, things are happening fast.” I’m like, “Okay, all right,” and still not thinking anything of it. I was in the on-my-knees position laboring which felt super great and my husband was doing counterpressure perfectly through every single contraction, bless his heart. At one point, I’m like, “Okay, I’ve got to get up. I’ve got to go pee. It’s been a while.” They’re like, “Okay, you’ve got to get up. Let’s go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet for a little bit. That’ll be good for labor, for dilating, for everything.”

I’m like, “Okay. I can do that.” It took all my might to stand up because his head was in my pelvis and– I don’t know. Some women labor standing up and push and everything. I just cannot even imagine because I stood up and I just waddled. I’m like, “This is the weirdest feeling and so uncomfortable.” I got to the bathroom which is attached to our room thankfully. I got on the toilet and I remember being like, “I can’t pee.” In my previous labor, that same thing happened and they actually gave me a catheter and took out a ton of pee which eventually actually helped my baby come down. 

So this time that happened, I’m like, “Oh no, we’re going to have to put a catheter in.” She goes, “I don’t know. Just give it some time.” We were on the toilet for maybe 10 minutes and I had a couple of contractions that felt good this time. They didn’t hurt. They just felt like my body was– it’s so hard to describe and now, looking back, I’m like, “Okay. That was my body pushing.” So this time I really got to experience that my body was actually doing it. I wasn’t pushing. I wasn’t doing anything. These contractions were just pushing my baby out. 

She was like, “Why don’t you just put your hand down there and just see if you can feel baby?” To my surprise, I’m like, “Oh my god. His head was maybe a knuckle deep.” I’m sorry if that’s too much information. But he was so close. He was right there. I’m like, “Oh my god. I’m doing it. My body is doing it. He’s doing it. We’re so close.” I had another very light contraction that didn’t feel like it did anything at all. I’m like, “I don’t know what that was, but I’m sure it was my body just getting a little bit of a break.” 

Still, at that point, I didn’t think I was about to birth him, but another contraction came and I put my hand down. This contraction came on so suddenly and my body just was pushing. All of a sudden, I felt my baby’s head emerge. My hand was over the top of his head. I was still on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my god. He’s coming right now. I need to get off of this toilet. He cannot be born into the toilet. That cannot happen.” 

My midwife was in front of me beside the toilet and my husband was behind me. He was doing the counterpressure, so I told him, “You have to lift me up.” He was like, “Okay. Here’s a stool back here.” I’m like, “No, I can’t sit on a stool right now. You just need to hold me. He’s coming. He’s coming right now.” I told my midwife, “You have to catch him.” Our bathroom is tile. I’m like, “He can’t hit the floor.” I mean, this is all coming out super quickly at this point. Things were just happening fast. 

So then his head was born and then my body stopped, and then it started contracting again and his whole body just came out. My midwife swooped him up and it was very quick. She brought him right up to my chest and he was right there with me. It was just like, “Oh my god.” I couldn’t believe how quickly he came out and how my body had done so much work at that point. At first, he wasn’t crying. He was actually very pale and floppy. It gives you a little bit of a panic. I’m calling out to him. I’m saying his name like, “Your mom’s here. We’re here. We love you.” Yeah. 

And then I saw one of the midwives give the Ambu bag to my midwife because it had been about a minute at that point and he hadn’t quite pinked up and cried yet. We were just kind of giving him the time he needed. In my heart, I knew that he would be okay. I knew that he just needed some time and that he just came out so quickly. He was stunned. So just over a minute came and he started crying. They come and they’re born and you’re like, “Oh my god,” like, yes but then that first cry, and when they make that face and you’re like, “Oh my god. Okay. He’s here. We did it. Everything’s okay.” 

It was just amazing how most of the time at a hospital if that were to happen– I say most of the time, but not always– they want to help them breathe. They want to suction them. They want to bag them. They want to do all of these things to help them breathe and we really just gave him that time that he needed to come into his body and be there with us. It wasn’t traumatic for us at all. I think if someone would have put a bag on him or suctioned him, that would have been more traumatic than this experience. So he came to and he got pink and started crying. We were just holding him and oh my gosh. 

It was a different feeling than my first VBAC. I truly believed in my body’s ability and my baby. We prayed so much about having our baby at home and we just felt so safe. My husband was there behind me. He was crying and I was crying. Everyone was crying at this point. My midwife and I were just so close. She is one of my really good friends too so it just made it that much more special. 

Meagan: Such an intimate time and everyone was probably feeling all of the things. That’s how it was at my birth too. Everyone’s watched you work so hard and go through all of this. Now you’re here. You just did it so the emotions are high. 

Holly: Oh yeah. I just remember, they were like, “Do you want to sit down on the floor and get comfortable?” I’m like, “No. I just want to go to my bed.” “Are you sure? You just had a baby.” “I know. I just want to go to my bed. That’s where I want to be.” That was a big reason why I wanted to birth at home. I just wanted to be in my bed. So I got in my bed. 

Another thing that we had actually thought near the end of my pregnancy was that there could have been a hiding twin where you hear with babies that are either really big or maybe there is a twin in there or something. I had a lot of fluid and he took up the space that he really wanted, so I started having these cramps again and she goes, “Do you mind if I actually listen?” No, I don’t think she actually listened, but then when she felt it was like, “No, it’s the placenta.” The clot behind the placenta was the hard spot we were feeling because my placenta was anterior. She goes, “Okay. I don’t think there’s another baby.” I’m like, “Oh god. I hope not. I’m not having another baby.” But no. 

Meagan: That would be a surprise. 

Holly: I know. I’m like, “No. That’s not going to happen.” I don’t know if that was intuitively or I just didn’t want it to happen, but I’m like, “No.” 

And so about a half hour went by and then I was able to birth my placenta. I had my midwife assist me with it a little bit just because I hadn’t done that with my second and because at the hospital, they managed it which actually wasn’t what I wanted either so I didn’t have that experience of naturally birthing my placenta yet, so I was just like, “Can I just have your assistance?” and she helped me with that. It came out perfectly and it was really cool because being a placenta encapsulator, I’m like, “I really want to assess and look at my own placenta,” and so I was able to do that. It was perfect. It looked great. My amniotic sac was just huge. I mean, you could just tell I had lots of water in there. He was actually only 7 pounds, 12 ounces so he was my smallest baby. 

But yeah. My first was 7 pounds, 15 ounces and then my second with my VBAC was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. So not a huge difference, super small, but I’m like, “Wow.” My husband and I had a bet that he would name him if he was under 7 pounds and I would name him if he was over 8 pounds. I’m like, “He’s for sure going to be over 8 pounds. I’ve got this.” No, he won that one but I actually still named him. 

Sarah: That’s an interesting way to choose who gets to pick the name. 

Holly: I know. And really, I knew that either way it goes, I still want the name that I want and he loved the name that I picked too. I’m like, “Okay, fine.” Since we couldn’t agree on it, we made a bet. 

Meagan: I love that. That’s so fun. 

Holly: Yeah. It was just such a good experience and it healed my first birth. It healed my second birth and it was just the most redemptive, healing birth I could ask for. It was the cherry on top of my birth experiences really. It was just amazing how I went from my C-section and then I went to my home birth transfer to the hospital but still had my VBAC and then had my VBAC at home on my terms and in my own space with the people that I chose to be there. 

Meagan: Yeah. You’ve kind of experienced a whole slew of outcomes which is fun and I’m assuming it will help you in your doula career too if you do have a home birth transfer client, you can say, “I get it. I’ve been here. This is what we’re going to do when we get there,” and help them along the way. 

Holly: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s really shaped me into the person that I am today with my birth work. 

Meagan: Yes. Well, huge congrats. 

Holly: Thank you. 

Sarah: I think the most beautiful part of your story is your ability to really trust your body and I think a lot of moms underestimate that mindset concept. You worked on it. 

Meagan: It does. 

Holly: Yeah. It makes a huge difference. With my second, I tried, but there was still a part of me that was holding onto the what-ifs and I think that’s partly due to when you have a C-section, you get that doubt put into you and I didn’t even labor with my first. We went straight to a C-section, so it was like a first baby all over again and not even knowing what to expect at all even though I had a baby already. 

Sarah: Yeah. I think that’s one of the harder things to really try to separate our births and especially as people that have had Cesareans to really dislocate that experience from our VBACs moving forward. 

Holly: Yes. Every birth is so different. Even within the same woman, your births can be so, so different. Babies are so different. It’s amazing. It can be so much of the same, but so, so different. I went from a 36-hour labor and birth to 2 hours and 10 minutes from start to finish. Well, early labor was weeks, but I don’t count that. 

My water broke and then 2 hours and 10 minutes later, he was born. It was just so fast. It wasn’t too fast where I couldn’t process it because I’m like, “As long as it’s under 12 hours, I’ll be happy.” It was just so fast. 

Meagan: I would love to know if there are any suggestions you would give for our listeners on getting to that place with your mindset. What tips would you suggest for getting into that mindset because it can be really, really hard? 

Holly: Yes. One aspect of it is you look at social media and if you are following accounts that aren’t giving you positive, good information, I think that can be really hard. For me in the beginning, I started unfollowing all of these accounts that were not good for me and just started following accounts that were sharing positive birth stories and videos and all of the good things that I needed to fill my mind with. It made a really big difference for me. I watched birth videos with my daughters every day because at first, I really wanted them there, but they were both sleeping and that’s what I needed in the end. 

But yeah. I think following accounts that give you good information that is positive, watching birth videos that have positive outcomes, and watching things and listening to the things about the birth that you want. I think that just makes a huge difference and helps your mindset. 

Meagan: I love that. Just jumping right into that space and not allowing any of the other things into that space, yeah. Love it. 

Holly: Just connecting with other women and that can be huge too. I’m a very faithful person and we prayed a lot during this pregnancy and through our birth. That’s something that really helped me and just surrendering that I wanted to be in control of everything but surrendering that control too was huge. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. I love it.  I love it so much. I love your picture. I can’t wait for everyone to see it. If you’re listening to it today, head over to our Instagram or Facebook and look at this incredible picture of her holding this sweet, little baby. Oh, it’s beautiful. It is so beautiful. So thank you so much for sharing. 

Holly: Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I listen to your guys’ podcasts all through my second pregnancy and it made such a big difference to me to hear other women’s stories and different stories. It was so helpful to me, so thank you. 

Meagan: Yes. That’s one of my favorite things. We were talking about it in the beginning. We love having people on that have listened through their whole pregnancy. They’re like, “All of these stories have changed my life. Now I’m going to share my story to help someone change theirs.” I love it so much. Thank you again. Congrats. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us again. So fun and Happy New Year, everybody. Happy New Year. It’s kind of weird to say that right now because it’s October as we are recording. 

Holly: It’ll be here sooner than we know. 

Meagan: It will be here so soon. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.   

We are bringing you extra episodes all month long in honor of Cesarean Awareness Month! 

Meagan and Julie kick off the conversation with a passionate discussion about the realities of birthing in a hospital setting. Doulas are birth workers who uniquely experience births in all settings. Meagan and Julie share what they have seen and how it has formed the strong opinions they have now. 

Additional Links

Julie’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your cohost for the day, Julie Francom. I’ve missed you guys so much. It’s so fun to be back here but I am also here with Meagan Heaton, the cofounder with me of The VBAC Link. We are so excited to be on a really special episode with you today. We were actually having lunch together the other day and talking about life, birth, and everything. We just decided that it would be better if we recorded the conversation so that’s what we’re going to do today. We’re going to record our conversations about birth, VBAC, and everything in between. 

Review of the Week

Before we get into it though, Meagan has a review for us. 

Meagan: Yay, yes I do. It’s always so fun to have you on Julie. I am excited to have our conversation that we were having the other day only recording it because it is definitely a great conversation to be had and to be heard. If you guys didn’t know, April is Cesarean Awareness Month. This month, we’re going to be kicking off with some extra episodes in addition to our stories. Here is number one for you. 

As Julie said, I do have a review of the week. This is from mathletic and it says, “Empowering and Addicting.” It says, “This may be my second time leaving a review, but it is because I am preparing for my second VBAC and felt that it was necessary. I first found this podcast as I prepped for my VBAC in 2019. I religiously listened to a new episode on the way to and from work daily and am always excited for Wednesday morning’s new episode.” 

Julie, that is crazy to me that people have been listening since 2019. 

Julie: Forever. 

Meagan: It is 2023. It says, “This podcast has given me so much education and strength that I took going into my TOLAC and achieving my successful VBAC in May 2019. I am now preparing for my VBAC as I am 36 weeks pregnant and due in early June.” 

This was in 2022 by the way so last year.

“Although I have now had a VBAC, I knew starting my mornings off with this podcast again with this pregnancy would be something that would help me get into the right headspace. I sometimes feel like Meagan and Julie are now my new friends.”

We are. We are friends with all of you. 

Julie: We are your friends. 

Meagan: Yes. “As we commute to work together–” We’ve been commuting to work with her, Julie. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: “I am very bummed to learn that there was a break, but I am so pumped when I found out that they were returning this May.” So yeah, seriously, this was a long time ago, you guys. We returned in 2022. “Thank you for all that you are doing in helping us mamas feel educated and strong as we go into our next births. I recommend this podcast to all my friends even the first-time mom friends as it’s been such a great wealth of knowledge going into any birth.” 

I could not agree more. This podcast is going to teach you so much and not only how to have a VBAC but how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. As we know, Julie and I were talking about this, Cesareans are through the roof. It is above 32% here in 2023. It is sad. It’s scary and it’s concerning. It is concerning. Why are we having so many Cesareans? We are going to take one moment and then we are going to get going into this wonderful new episode. 

Cesarean Awareness Month

Meagan: Okay, Julie. Hi. I miss you. I love you. I just saw you last week. 

Julie: It was so great to have lunch with you and just jibber-jabbering away about life, the birth work, getting old, and my salty attitude about birth. We’re going to talk about it.

Meagan: Your salty attitude. You guys, she has become a little salty and sassy. 

Julie: I am. I’ve always been that way, but I feel like I was pretty good at toning it down and being diplomatic, especially doing The VBAC Link and things like that. I definitely have opinions as we all do. I was just making sure that we were including everybody and that everybody has a safe space here. We certainly want to do that on this episode as well, but I will hit 100 births this year. Meagan, you are probably at 600. 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: But either as a doula or a birth photographer and you know what? One thing that I wish people could understand a little bit more or take more seriously is that doulas and birth photographers probably have the most unique perspective on childbirth because we see births in the hospital, out of the hospital, at birth centers, with hospital OB/GYNS, hospital midwives, out of hospital midwives, and unassisted births. We have seen a few of those. We have such a unique perspective and we see how things unfold in each environment with each intervention and with each provider. 

I wish that somebody would hone into that and try and work to collect those experiences and perspectives because if you ever want to hear about the state of childbirth in the United States and probably even in the world because a lot of countries are not too different from ours, talk to a freaking birth worker that does hospital and home births because that is where you’re going to find these priceless gems and perspectives that you’re really going to learn from. 

Yeah. I just wish that people could see that. 

Meagan: It’s hard because we have clients hire us as their doula or their birth photographer and we talked about this at lunch the other day how we come in and one of the mean things as a birth worker that we are going to do is talk about what birthing experience that person wants. It is important to us as birth workers and as your friends to help you get the best experience that you can get and help you get a lot of those things that you desire. Am I wrong there? That is one of the biggest things. 

Julie: No, I think that’s right. 

Meagan: That’s one of the biggest things of what being a doula is. It’s one of the most important things is helping these clients and helping our parents get these births that they want. We come in and we ask things like, “What would you like for your birth? How do you envision your birth? What kind of things do you desire to happen or not happen in your birth?” It’s more often than not a very similar answer. 

It’s usually things like, “I would like to labor at home as long as possible. I would like to go unmedicated. If not, as long as possible before getting an epidural. I would like to have a vaginal birth and avoid unnecessary interventions.” 

Julie: Don’t want to be induced. 

Meagan: “Don’t want to be induced. I want to go into spontaneous labor,” is just what I was going to say so they don’t want to be induced. “I want to avoid a Cesarean.”

Julie: “I want my water to break on its own.” 

Meagan: Yep. “I want to avoid a Cesarean. I want to push as my body and myself direct.” 

Julie: “I don’t want to push on my back.” 

Meagan; “I don’t want to push on my back.” Things like this. If you’re listening to this episode, I’m assuming you’re shaking your head, “Yep. That’s what I want too. That’s what I want too.” It’s not a bad thing that we want these things. It’s not a bad thing. 

Julie: It’s a good thing. It’s natural. It’s instinctual. It’s primal. 

Meagan: Yes. These things are things that we want for a reason. What I hear when I hear these things is, “I want to birth the way my body is going to birth and was made to birth.” Right? 

Julie: Yep. 

Meagan: But as birth workers as Julie was talking about, we have this interesting perspective because we’ve seen things. I’m not going to sit and say that I’ve seen all of the scenarios and all the things in birth. I’m not. Again, no I have not been to 600 births but I have been to a lot. I’m still learning as I go but there are so many situations where I can see things unfolding. So we have this client and these people that are wanting this type of birth and then what Julie? 37, 38, 39 weeks. 

Julie: “Oh, we’d better do an ultrasound to see if your baby’s measuring big or check your fluids My gosh, I hear you complaining so much about being pregnant. Let’s just induce at 39 weeks. You can pick your baby’s birthday. You can do this.” Or all of a sudden, maybe your blood pressure is maybe a little bit high so maybe you have preeclampsia so you have to test that. What does that do? It stresses you out so it makes your blood pressure high even more. 

Everyone starts to get a little anxious because the due date is approaching. Mom, dad, and parents are getting anxious. Providers are like, “Okay, well we don’t want you to go past this date” Especially with VBAC. Oh my gosh, it’s not safe to go after 40 weeks because that increases your chance of uterine rupture. Not true, by the way. 

Meagan: Or we’ve got a big baby. 

Julie: “Or we’ve got a big baby and your last baby was 8.5 pounds so we want to make sure.” All of these are non-evidence-based reasons because people treat 40 weeks like an expiration date rather than an average. That’s when, in a hospital system, things start to happen that decrease your chances of all of those beautiful, perfect, wonderful things that you want in your birth. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Julie: Sorry, go ahead. 

Meagan: No, you’re fine. You’re fine. I was just going to say that this is what we see happen so often. We meet with our clients at 24-34 weeks pregnant and these are their desires. This is what their hearts and their souls are saying. Based on a lot of the time, what they have learned too. They know the evidence-based information so they are like, “Based on that, I don’t want to do these things.” But then 37, 38, 39, 40 weeks come and we have these new introductions and new seeds being planted.

For some reason, those things leave. They leave our minds. 

Julie: Well, you’re tired. You’re very pregnant. You’re easily influenced and yes you want to be done. Yes, it sounds nice to be done sooner. Oh no, you don’t want to have a complication or preeclampsia, or a big baby. That sounds scary. Shoulder dystocia sounds really complicated. In some instances, it is for sure, but when you start planting those little seeds, then they grow into self-doubt. It’s easy to confuse our worries and our fears with intuition. 

Meagan: They’re lost. Yes. Yes. That is the hardest part. We are getting these seeds planted and then they’re being watered. The seeds are growing and the roots are pushing out what our intuition was saying from the beginning. Then we make choices and decisions. We are human beings that have the opportunity to make these choices and decisions, but sometimes we are backed into these corners because our seeds are being poured on. We are being flooded with overwhelming, scary feelings. 

As a birth worker, it can be frustrating. I’m going to be super honest. Julie must be spitting the salt at me. I don’t know what she’s doing here. It’s so infuriating to see and heartbreaking to see someone we know and loves go into this space that we know is not where they wanted to go and then see the cascade happen when it didn’t need to. 

The other day, everyone at Zupas was probably like, “Whoa. These two broads are crazy.” We are very animated. 

Julie: We weren’t very quiet. 

Meagan: We’re not quiet people first of all and we are animated. I feel like in the past, Julie has been a little bit toned down with her bluntness. She’ll be blunt but I’m over the top and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, Meagan stop.”

Julie: Now I’m just like, “Heck yeah, girl.” 

Meagan: So us together, we’re at Zupas saying these things. One of my questions is, and I wish I had the power, knowledge, and time to produce this huge study because I really want to know what happens if we do nothing. What happens? What happens? Julie started adding to that. Do you want to talk about what you added to that?

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Do you remember? 

Julie: Yes. Okay, sorry. My mind is going on 17 different paths right now like it usually does. I think if you really, really, really want to get a good perspective about birth, really sit down and talk to a doula. One that you haven’t hired because I know when my clients hire me, they hire me for my knowledge and my experiences and to support them. I’m not going to say my full, unbiased opinion to a client because I don’t want them to feel like I’m not supportive of them. I am supportive of them. 

Meagan: Or jading them. We don’t want to jade. 

Julie: I don’t want them to get doubts about their birth plan going into it because everybody else is planting doubts so I don’t want doubts to come from the doula. But really, sit down and talk to a birth worker because I’ll tell you what. I see way smoother births at home. I see way less need for induction at home. I see more love and support in the birth space at home or a birth center. I see more mother-led pushing, way more mother-led pushing at home. I never ever see anyone birth on their back at home ever. I see more partner involvement. I see kids involved. I see whoever you want at your birth involvement. I see mothers who are satisfied with their birth experiences at home. 

I see babies healthier and more skin-to-skin time and happier families and happier outcomes at home hands down. Yes. Are there a few here and there where it is hard and they need more help or there is a hospital transfer every now and then? Sure, but I guarantee that you are more likely to have problems and your baby is more likely to have problems in a hospital because it is set up to control things and it’s not set up to trust the mother-baby unit, to trust the parent-baby unit, the birthing person, whatever pronouns you choose to use, insert them here. 

It’s not set up like that. It’s not your provider’s fault. It’s not your nurse’s fault. It’s not anybody’s fault. It’s the system and the way that it’s integrated and taught to these health providers that birth has to look xyz and has to be done by xyz. The baby should be this size. The mother’s xyz has to look like this. It is all set up to facilitate a system that does not trust the parent-baby unit. It does not trust it. At home, it is very well-trusted. It just is. It just is. 

I don’t want to sugarcoat it. This is maybe where my saltiness comes in but you are way more likely to have that birth experience at home. Yes, it can be done safely. Yes, there are still providers at home that will keep an eye on you and transfer you as soon as you might need any medical assistance because it does save lives. It has. We’ve seen it. We know it, but most of the time, you are— yeah. I’m just going to pause that here for a second and go into where you were trying to lead me here, Meagan. 

Meagan: You’re just fine. 

Julie: Sorry. I just have so many opinions clearly. 

Meagan: It’s passion, Julie. It’s passion. You are passionate because you are seeing things. I am too. I’m seeing things that are unnecessary. They are unnecessary. We will circle back to where I was going, but we will start where you were at. There are so many unnecessary things that are happening in the system that is so frustrating as a birth worker to see because we also have seen the other side. We have seen. Yes, Julie and I personally have experienced the other side. She was at home. I was at a birth center. We have seen it and experience it. The passion that is coming to you through this episode is because we believe. We know as we’ve experienced it ourselves as people who have given birth in a system that is “off” the straight and narrow path as a lot of people will say. 

When people were hearing that I was going to VBAC after two Cesareans out of the hospital because I kept it quiet from most people. But you know what happened when it happened online. People were attacking me, “How dare you?”

Julie: People are going to throw salt at us now for this episode. Message me on Instagram @juliefrancombirth. I will engage with you. 

Meagan: But no. This is passion coming from you. This is your passion in saying, “I have seen other things. I’ve seen other opportunities.” 

Julie: I’ve seen the other side. 

Meagan: We know. We know, women of strength. We know that it is not always suitable, comfortable, or appropriate for you to birth outside of the hospital. We know that. We do. We definitely just have seen things outside of the hospital that are incredible. 

Julie: Way better. They’re way better. They are. Hold on. Let me interject here for just a second. People might say, “Oh, well you’ve only been to a hundred births. Providers do a hundred births a week in a hospital.” Not a hundred births a week. That would be a lot. But significantly more. I am not going to argue that at all. I’ve only been a doula for 8 years, 100 births. That’s 10-12 a year besides having babies in between then as well. Last year, I did almost 30 which was super great. 

But here’s the thing. When you’re in a hospital, you’re only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing, I don’t even know statistics for this, maybe 90-95% of people have an epidural in a hospital? I don’t know. Maybe 70%? I don’t know. I should probably rescind that number. But a lot. And if you don’t have an epidural, guess what you have? You’re hooked up to an IV. You have continuous fetal monitoring. You are in the very system that we’re trying to break away from right now. That is what you see. You don’t see hands-off birth. You don’t see the normal, physiological process that happens when you do nothing. 

Yes, at home you have intermittent monitoring every 30 minutes. You do the lab work and stuff like that. The routine tests and everything like that is done at home prenatally and during the birth, but what happens? You don’t get to witness that if you work in a hospital in the labor and delivery unit. You don’t get to see that. 

Meagan: Just a quick search by the way, it’s 65-80% of people receive epidurals and stuff. 

Julie: Huh, there you go. 

Meagan: But yeah. They don’t. Their opinions is tainted a little bit. This is why I kind of wish that I had the power to do this study. If there is one and you are listening and you are aware of this study, please let us know. But the study of what happens if we do nothing? We know the ARRIVE trial. We know that if we induce people at 39 weeks, we sort of know what happens. 

Julie; Do we induce them at 39 or do we induce them at 40 and 5? 

Meagan: This is the thing. Really, this hasn’t really been done for a long time. We know that ACOG says 42 weeks is the cutoff. We’ve got an increased risk of things like stillbirth and things like that. But okay, so at 42 weeks, we assess. But what happens if, at 38, 39, 40, and 41, we do nothing? What happens if we don’t strip our membranes? What happens if we don’t even perform a cervical exam until 42 weeks? 

Julie: What happens if we don’t talk about induction? We don’t even talk about it. 

Meagan: Yes. Don’t talk about induction. So what happens if we do nothing? What does our Cesarean rate do then? I’m really curious. Do we go down? Do we go up? Do we start having more issues? I don’t know. 

Julie: What does maternal and fetal mortality look like? Because right now, it is a disaster. 

Meagan: Yes. It just makes me wonder. Cesarean Awareness Month is something that is near and dear to our hearts. We want to bring awareness to it. Cesarean is 32.1% right now. 

Julie: Yeah. It went up. 2020 and 2021 preliminary data, the Cesarean rates went up. Surprise, because of COVID. 

Meagan: As a birth worker, what do we know that happened during that time? What did we see? I’ll tell you what I saw. Induction, induction, induction. 

Julie: People’s support system’s being taken away. They wouldn’t even allow partners there. Guess what else happened? Everybody put masks on. Who feels secure? Some people had to push their baby out wearing a mask. Birth, being a very instinctual and intuitive process, anything that creates that feeling of unsafety or difference or fear will interrupt that process. It will make it less efficient. 

So when you were taking away people’s partners from the birth room, when you’re making everyone wear a mask in the birth space, when you had a positive COVID test, or if you did not want to do a COVID test, people would come in wearing hazmat suits. 

Meagan: Even the fear of testing positive and then the threat of everybody being taken away including the baby. 

Julie: Yeah. All of these things interrupt that process and then yes, people with COVID. I can’t even imagine what it was like in the healthcare system. I cannot even imagine what it was like to be a healthcare worker during COVID and having to deal with all of that also. But then needing to also predict and schedule births to control the number of patients coming in and out of a hospital created this “need” for induction and for causing things to be a little more predictable for everybody. I can understand that to a degree but also, but it introduces the need for other interventions to get the baby here including a Cesarean. 

Meagan: Right. We’re seeing this stuff happen and it is just so hard because if you’ve been with us for a really long time, you know. You know what we’re for. We’re here to educate on birth after Cesarean. We’re here to educate you on your options for birth. That doesn’t mean you have to have a VBAC either. Right before this call, Julie and I had another call. We were talking about not necessarily advocating for a Cesarean, but we’re also not saying you’re bad for having a Cesarean, right? We’re not pro-Cesarean people. We’re not advocating for unnecessary Cesareans, but at the same time, we’re not shaming anyone or wanting to make you feel bad for choosing that route.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s important to say that. Our intention is not to shame anybody but also there’s a certain point where you’ve got to stop sugarcoating everything. I tell this to my clients too. I’m not going to bounce around the issues with you. I’m going to tell you things. I’m never going to lie to you. I’m never going to say xyz. I’m not going to tell you, “You’re wrong for choosing this,” or whatever because I don’t think anyone is wrong for choosing this but I feel like it’s so easy to get coerced into doing something we normally wouldn’t have done. I feel like it’s so easy to feel safer in a hospital because that’s how we were raised. 

I feel like some of these things are ingrained so deeply in us that it’s hard to break away from them, but I also am not going to pretend that people’s choices are conducive to their birth preferences. There are just some things that don’t go together. Natural birth in a hospital does not go together very well. It just doesn’t. Not natural, but unmedicated, hands-off birth does not happen well in a hospital. It’s a lot harder and it’s much more of a fight to get that in a hospital versus out of a hospital. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well and I think too it’s important to talk about creating that space and that environment. If it’s in the hospital, okay. But let’s talk about how to set that up, how to set that space up. We just recently posted about creating a more homey, comfortable environment. We’ll make sure to drop all of it if you guys are interested in checking out these awesome things like getting into your own birthing gown. 

Going to a hospital, taking off your clothing, and Julie you just talked about this and in a second I want you to bring up what you were talking about with me, but naturally, showing up to a new location with new, strange faces. It’s maybe a little cold. It’s maybe a little foreign. It’s maybe a little staged-looking. Everything is folded up on the bed. Then take off your clothing. What does that do to our body and to our mind? It puts us in an uncomfortable feeling.

Julie: A little bit of a fight or flight mode. 

Meagan: We talked about putting on this thing that is open in the back so our butts are showing. So getting into your own gown, into your own soft, cozy, comfortable gown can bring you some comfort even though you are still changing once you’re getting there or maybe you go there in that. Maybe you prepare and you get in that before and you go. Or maybe you don’t like IVs and the bottom of an IV looks yucky. There are IV covers to take it away and make it feel less hospitalized because you are in a hospital. But Julie, talk about what you were saying earlier. I was like, “Huh. I’ve actually never thought of that.”

Julie: I saw this on Instagram a few days ago. I’d seen it circulating around before. I wish I knew what account it was so I could tell you to go look at it, but I don’t remember. Maybe I saved it. I’ll have to look it up while I’m talking. But it basically said, “What would happen if we conceived babies in the same manner that we deliver them?” In order to get pregnant, okay. We need to preface this with sometimes how people need interventions to get pregnant and sometimes you have to have IVF or other things in order to have a baby. 

But for most people, what if in order to conceive a baby, instead of being in the comfort of your own home with your partner, or I guess wherever you decide to conceive in a car or a forest or wherever, a movie theater. Anyways, whatever your choice, not my business. What if instead of that, you first went to a hospital, changed into their gown, got your blood pressure taken, got hooked up to an IV just in case you need to have some kind of medication–

Meagan: Have monitors placed on your belly. 

Julie: Have monitors placed on your belly, have nurses come in and out and tell you that you can’t get started until the doctor comes in– 

Meagan: Asking you lots of questions. 

Julie: Asking you about your insurance, your cycle, when your last period was, and all of these things. I don’t think you’re going to make a baby in that situation. You bring your partner and be like, “Okay, partner. Go get changed now.” Your partner gets changed and everybody’s watching you. Everybody’s watching you. 

Meagan: You’re on the monitor outside. 

Julie: I mean, when babies are born, everyone’s watching. Freaking hands are in the vagina and freaking everything. What happens if we conceived babies that way? How would that work? How would that work? Let’s flip this around. Let’s flip this around. What happens if we birth our babies in the same manner that we conceived them?

We get in our house, movie theater, car, forest, whatever. We go into our home. We turn the lights down. We run a hot bath. We snuggle with our partners. You probably don’t want to have your kids or mother-in-law in your space, but what happens if we created that same environment to increase the flow of our natural hormones, to safeguard and protect that process and make it as intimate as it was when we conceived our babies? 

Meagan: Yeah. It’s a big question. 

Julie: It’s way better and I can say that it’s way better because I’ve had my own, but also, I’ve seen over a hundred almost births and I see the contrast. I see the contrast and it’s a beautiful situation when it’s allowed to unfold naturally. Every once in a while, I’ll get a nice unicorn birth that has a nice, unmedicated, parent-led birth in a hospital but it’s very rare. 

Meagan: I want to talk about that because, with Cesarean Awareness Month, that’s what we do during Cesarean Awareness Month. We talk about things. We do see preventable Cesareans and preventable interventions. Talking about advocating for birth after Cesrean and advocating for yourself, here we are. We go into this space, into the hospital, and we are vulnerable. What do we do? We feel vulnerable because I didn’t go to school for 4+ years. I didn’t study this. I went to the forest and conceived a baby. 

Julie: Or a movie theater. 

Meagan: I went in. I have this. I’ve learned. I’ve learned, but now I’m in this space and I’m vulnerable. It’s bright. Like Julie said, it’s this less-ideal space to give birth. We would never conceive there, so why would we give birth there? But if you’re in this space, what do you do? What can you do to create a better space? A better environment? 

We just had a mama. She wasn’t a VBAC but her video went viral. 

Julie: Katelyn!

Meagan: Yep, Katelyn. Maybe actually she might not have been– actually, her episode hasn’t even aired yet but you guys definitely need to check out the video on our social media because it is so incredible. Chills all the way from head to toe. It went viral because she advocated for herself. She had nurses. Bless their heart, we love nurses. By the way, if you’re a nurse, we love nurses. I don’t want to say we hate nurses. But she had nurses following their protocol–

Julie: Trying to get her on the bed. Getting baby’s blood pressure. 

Meagan: Trying to get blood pressure. Trying to monitor baby. They tried to get her on the bed and tried to give her a cervical exam, because how would it be if she was 4 centimeters and her midwife was called to come? These things are being told to her. She is pushing out a baby as she’s being questioned for all of this stuff. She’s literally pushing a baby out of her vagina and standing up in this hospital room. That scenario and that story is few and far between because it is hard. It is so hard. You guys, I was a mom in a birthing room the other day at the veterinarian. I had my puppy. We’re sitting there and this doctor is like, “We have to do this. We have to do this. We have to do this.” You guys, I’m a doula. I know how to advocate. Do you want to know what happened? This is a real thing. This really happened. 

Julie: You have a puppy?

Meagan: He’s like a puppy. He’s five but he’s like a puppy. My pup. So we’re there and he’s telling me all of these things we have to do. Not only is he telling me what we are having to do, but he’s also doing things to my dog in front of me, then telling the nurse what he’s doing and charging me for these things that I did not ask for. I did not consent to them. I left and I literally paused and thought, “Holy blippity bleep, blah blah blah, bleep.” That is what happens in the birth room way too often. 

Julie: Yep. 

Meagan: Women of strength, we do not want this to happen to you. Julie has spit her salt all over and it’s all over me too. We’re feeling it. 

Julie: Oh, I’m not done. 

Meagan: We’re feeling it. We’re feeling it. Don’t let these things happen to you. It’s okay to stand up for yourself. It is okay to say, “No, thank you.” It is okay to say, “I hear you. I respect you. I feel differently. I don’t want to do that.” Or maybe at a later date. Or maybe at a later time. 

Julie: Or just cancel your prenatal appointments. I’m not advocating for that, but I’ve had clients be like, “You know what? I know when I go for my 37-week visit that they’re going to push for this and this so I canceled. I’m not concerned. Everything’s healthy.” 

Meagan: Yeah, you just don’t have to do anything. I think one of the biggest things and one of the biggest places we can start at avoiding these unnecessary Cesareans– 

Julie: Is by staying home!

Meagan: It’s by staying home and advocating. You guys, y’all can tell where Julie is. She’s feeling it here at home birth. 

Julie: I just see it. Go ahead. You go then I’ll go. 

Meagan: I’m just saying that it’s okay to stay strong. It’s okay to stand strong and try your hardest not to let your vulnerability because it’s there. You’re so vulnerable in the end. You’re tired. You’re miserable. You’re vulnerable. We just want this baby in our arms. We just want this VBAC more than anything. Don’t let people break your vulnerability, sneak in there, and take advantage of you because there is no need. Obviously, if there is a medical, true medical reason, we understand that. Right? They happen. Like Julie said earlier, we’re grateful. We’re grateful.

Julie: There’s no shame in that. You should have mercy on yourself if you got railroaded either by the system or by an unexpected emergency. Have mercy on yourself. Give yourself grace because it happens. It’s not okay that it happens if the system is the cause of that, but it doesn’t make you a bad mom. It doesn’t make you a bad human. It doesn’t make you a bad anything. It’s just what happens sometimes. 

Meagan: Most Cesareans are unplanned because we had no idea what was happening, but a lot of the time these Cesareans are happening because they are sneaking in, these little sneakers. I don’t even know what. I was going to call them weasels. They are weaseling their way in and tapping into our vulnerabilities. I was not the vulnerable one with my second C-section. My husband was and my provider saw it. He snatched it and turned him against me. What did I do? I walked down for a second, unnecessary Cesarean. 

We don’t want these things to happen to you. We want to bring awareness and maybe you’re like, “Wow. These chicks are coming in strong.” But you guys, we are passionate. We love you. 

Julie: We want you to have the birth you want. That’s why. Nothing hurts me more than loving someone, knowing what they want, and seeing them get railroaded in a hospital setting. We see it a lot. 

Meagan: That’s what we see most of these times. 

Julie: A lot. Especially more as a birth photographer. As a doula, I was more involved in the prenatal prep. Sometimes I show up to births as a birth photographer and I’ve never met the people. They fill out my questionnaire. They hired me. I come in and I’m like, “Hey, I’m Julie. You’re in labor. It’s nice to meet you.” Those are the hardest ones. I’m never going to watch someone suffer. If you’re suffering, I’m going to put my camera down and I’m going to help you. But for first-time parents that didn’t feel the need to do any type of childbirth education or learn anything about the process, you just sit there and watch them get railroaded by the hospital setting. You’re watching trauma unfold and you’re just like, “How is this happening?” But you know how it’s happening because you’ve been watching it for years. I’m talking about myself in the third person or second, or whatever person. 

But here’s the thing. It breaks our hearts. We see it all the time. We see it in The VBAC Link Community all of the time. So many times, people are like, “My water broke so I went into the hospital. I’m only 0 centimeters dilated. They started Pitocin. It’s at a 10 and I don’t know what to do. I’m not dilating and contractions aren’t coming. Help me.” This could have been stopped if you knew that it’s okay for your water to break without labor starting and to wait at home for 12-24 hours for labor to start on its own and rest, hydrate, and watch for fever or chills or anything like that then go to the hospital. It’s a simple thing to learn but people don’t think that because they trust their system. They’re going to the hospital and getting railroaded. So many times we see that. All of a sudden, you’re water has been broken for however many arbitrary hours your hospital decides is important, and then you get a C-section because all of these things happened. If you would have just known that it’s okay to stay home, and there is evidence of staying home. We’re not just making this up. There is evidence to support this and just takes a little bit of time to learn. 

But anyways, that’s why I’m sounding really salty today is because I see people get railroaded by the system all of the time. All of the time and it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. I can leave birth and not be super affected by it anymore usually, but these birth experiences are yours. They’re going to affect you for the rest of your life. We don’t only know that. We don’t want you to be railroaded by the system. We want you to know and follow your heart and follow your intuition. If your intuition is telling you, “Unmedicated birth, not pushing on your back, not getting induced, not wanting cervical checks,” then you probably want to birth at home because as soon as you walk out of the door when you are in labor to go to the hospital, your chances of having that birth go down a lot.

Meagan: Yeah. I mean, studies show that people are much more likely to have interventions in labor and birth as soon as they are admitted in labor, especially in early labor. If we rush to the hospital, but in your mind, you’re like, “I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to be induced. I don’t want interventions,” but the second we start contractions, if we run and go in, our chances of interventions are sky high and the chances of Cesarean are high because we’re pushing these things that are leading to Cesareans. Don’t shame yourself and offer yourself grace if you’ve experienced an unexpected, undesired Cesarean. You are not alone. You are not alone. But know that you have options. Sometimes I want to say to open your mind a little bit. Whether you come back to that openness or not, you come back to that original idea or birthing location, open your mind a little bit and learn the stats. See the stats. Hear the stories. Hear what it can be like.

I don’t want to take away from anyone who has birthed in the hospital and had a beautiful experience because they can happen and they do happen. They do. But yes. There are a lot of other things that can happen in the home or outside of the hospital that may not lead to interventions and things like that because we’re at home and we’re doing those things. We’re doing more of nothing. We’re not doing a lot of anything. We’re doing nothing. We’re watching. We’re trusting. We’re having faith. It’s so important to understand that your body is capable of doing this. I’ve had some consults lately that broke my heart because people have literally told them they can’t. They won’t. They shouldn’t. 

Those three words. They can’t have a vaginal birth. They will never have a vaginal birth. I was told that. Right here, I was told that I would not get a baby out of my pelvis. Hello, okay. They shouldn’t and they can’t. Don’t believe that. If you are listening to this podcast, whether you be a first-time mom, a second-time mom, a VBAC, a CBAC, a HBAC, breech. 

Julie: A breech BAC. 

Meagan: Whatever your history is, whatever you’re coming from, know that you are capable. You are capable of making these choices. You are capable of doing this. It is totally possible. Totally possible. Yes, we might sound salty today. We might sound aggressive. 

Julie: We’re passionate. We’re seeing women get hurt by the system. 

Meagan: It’s really hard, but sometimes, we have to have these hard, raw conversations. 

Julie: Direct. 

Meagan: Direct conversations to say, don’t let the system get you. Don’t let it get you. Don’t let it bite you in the butt. It doesn’t have to be like that. It doesn’t have to be like that. I hate that it even has a label as “the system”. You guys, this is a system. It’s unfortunate that it has come to this. It is unfortunate. I wish that we could all just go back to the farm. Let’s have the farm everywhere. Ina May’s farm. Let’s bring back the farm and just give birth like that. Don’t you think, Julie? Wouldn’t that be lovely?

Julie: That would be beautiful. I think it’s a double-edged sword because up until the 1940s, 1950s, maybe a little bit earlier than that, probably the 1920s or 30s, most people gave birth at home. You only went to the hospital if there was an emergency or if you were at higher risk. 

Meagan: And there were some downfalls about birthing back then too. 

Julie: Right. That’s what I’m getting at because there’s a reason why people transfer to the hospital. In the advent of the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, mostly the 70s, all of these new technological advancements and things like that provided ways that we could save lives that otherwise would have been lost. For that, we are incredibly grateful. We are so grateful. 

Like we talked about a little bit earlier in the hospital, with that, it has evolved into a system that tries to control the birth process so it’s a trade-off. I feel like an ideal situation would be where everybody births without intervention unless there are true emergencies. We’re not talking about emergencies like, “Oh, I was induced at 39 weeks and my body wasn’t progressing past a 4 and it’s been 48 hours. My baby’s heart rate is starting to go down so now I have to have a Cesarean.” That is a hospital-created, emergent Cesarean. That is a system-created circumstance where a Cesarean became necessary. 

That happens so much. It happens so much. We have been raised to go to the hospital and have babies. We get induced. My mother-in-law was induced on her due date every single time. She had her babies every time on her due date. She had five kids. Everything went perfectly well. She has no trauma. Who really knows? It’s been a while since those things but she speaks very fondly of her births and that’s okay. That’s good. But now, we are a generation of traumatized women from our birth experiences. You go into a room with four people that have had babies, I guarantee that two of them had a really rough experience. That’s another number I’m just making up. You’re not going to be able to find any resources for this. 

Meagan: What do they say? Two out of five people have unexpected Cesareans or something like that. Say at a restaurant and have everybody raise their hand that had a Cesarean. That’s the question. Have you ever had a Cesarean? A lot of arms are going to go up. How many of those Cesareans were planned? There are going to be some. 

Julie: Less than half I would say. 

Meagan: There are going to be some that stay up, but most of them were unplanned. 

Julie: I have a cousin that had four Cesareans. The first one was unplanned, the three other ones were scheduled. She says, “It’s the best way to have a baby. You go to the hospital, go to sleep” because she would go under general “then you wake up and have a baby.” She loves it. She speaks very fondly of it. That’s the way that she likes to birth and that’s okay. I don’t want to come off as romanticizing home birth because birthing at home is hard. Sometimes your baby is in a wonky position or sometimes your body might be not quite ready. It’s going to be a longer and harder process. Sometimes emergencies happen and you have to transfer to the hospital. Things like that happen. I don’t want to make it sound like that never happens because it does. 

I think there are three major home birth studies now that show it’s just the mortality rates for mothers and babies are similar in the hospital and at home, so there is not enough difference to say that one is better than the other, but also, at home, guess what is less? Less postpartum hemorrhage. Less chance of the baby needing resuscitation. Less chances of severe tearing. Less chance that baby is going to the NICU at home. It’s worth considering. It’s worth exploring and my gosh, if you are a 100% hospital birther, I think Meagan touched on this a little bit earlier, we encourage you to check out home birth resources in your area. Just check them out. Just go and talk to a home birth midwife. Ask her what she does in the case of an emergency, what would risk you out of birthing at home, and just talk to them. You don’t have to hire them, but talk to them and see what else is available. See if your intuition jives with that. If your partner is on board with a home birth because it’s going to freak them out, and you feel like it’s something that you want to explore more, it’s time to sit down and have a serious talk with that partner. 

Do not let your partner or your provider take away the chance of having the birth that you want because they feel uncomfortable about it. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s a hard one. That’s a whole other–

Julie: I know it is because it’s important. You should respect each other’s opinions. You should. You should respect each other’s opinions. You should respect your partner. You should understand where your partner is coming from. You should take their point of view into consideration. You should be able to come to a compromise, but if your partner is not willing to do that for you, then that’s a problem. 

Meagan: I want to just quickly before we end, plug in some numbers. Look, you guys. Are you so proud of me? Julie, you should be proud of me for talking about numbers. 

Julie: I am proud of you. 

Meagan: This is what you usually do. 

Julie: Before we get into that, I want to say one more thing. I understand that some of the things that we’ve said are probably going to be pretty emotional for some people. Maybe some people have gotten triggered. Maybe some people just hate us now and they’ve already unfollowed us on Instagram, who knows? I say us but probably me too. Probably a lot of VBAC Link people follow me on Instagram as well. Let me try and figure out how I’m going to circle back around and say this. 

If you have been triggered by this episode, I really, really encourage you to lean into that trigger. Don’t run away from it. Don’t slash The VBAC Link. Don’t unfollow us. Don’t unsubscribe. Don’t trash talk to your midwife buddy about us. I guess you can do all of those things. It’s really your choice. But I encourage you to really lean into that trigger because I wish that we were a society of owning our triggers instead of blaming other people for our triggers. 

Triggers are our own emotional responses caused by some sort of unresolved trauma or issue in our life. If you lean into that trigger and explore it and figure out why it’s happening and where it’s coming from, you’re going to be able to heal emotionally and become a better human. It’s going to affect your future pregnancies, your future births, and your future interactions with other people. How would it be to not ever feel triggered like that? It would be really cool. I wish that I was never triggered but I also know that when I get triggered, instead of running away from it, I have learned to really lean into it, explore it, figure it out, and resolve that. I encourage you that if something we said has triggered you, then lean into it. Maybe leaning into it is unfollowing The VBAC Link. Who really knows? But I bet you that there is a deeper issue there. 

I wish or I hope that you would take some of the things that we have said here and consider them. Maybe lean into that too and explore a little bit more some of the things that we are talking about and why we are feeling this way. I also encourage you to talk to a local doula or a birth photographer and ask about their experiences observing home birth and hospital birth. That’s my little parting piece. 

Meagan: Great, you’re right. A quick plug-in before we talk about these numbers, if you are not aware, The VBAC Link has VBAC-certified doulas all over the world. I’m serious, all over the world. So if you are looking for a VBAC Link doula or if you are looking for someone that’s really educated and knows their stuff about VBAC, knows how to support you, and also to help find a really solid provider and location and help you determine where is best for you, check out our directory at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Search your area because seriously, these doulas are incredible. 

Julie and I a long time ago, back in 2018, started–

Julie: 2018, 5 years coming up. Oh my gosh, in a couple of more months. 

Meagan: Yeah, back when we got together and started this company, our goal was to help change the VBAC world. We cannot do this alone as individuals, so we have all of these incredible doulas helping us out there. So if you are looking for a VBAC doula, I have to gloat about them because they are amazing. 

Julie: Really amazing. 

Meagan: But let’s talk really quickly before you go about success rates. There’s a study that has been done. It was published in 2015 but I believe that it was from 2004-2009 which makes me even wonder now after COVID what it would be because home birth and HBAC have skyrocketed since COVID because a lot of people were, just like we were talking about in the beginning, having their people stripped from them, having to wear a mask, having to deal with the fear of losing their baby if they tested positive and all of these things. 

But this was a while ago. The success rate was examined. It’s a lower number like 1050 or something like that but the rate of successful HBACs was 87%. 

Julie: That is pretty amazing. Do you know what I love? That’s higher than APA because APA says that 60-80% of people who attempt a VBAC will be successful. 

Meagan: Just in general, a VBAC, yes. 

Julie: That’s general. Hospital, home birth, movie theater birth, whatever. 60-80%. But this at home, did you hear that? 87%. 

Meagan: At home, 87%. Now, I want to talk about transfer rates. They had an average of 18% transfer rate. 

Julie: That’s kind of high. 

Meagan: It is kind of high but I want to talk about that because a lot of people might think of an 18% transfer rate and they automatically go to Joe Rogan’s page and hear, “Oh, what they are saying is so true. All of these terrible things are happening.” You guys, no. Yeah. Did you see it? 

Julie: No, send me a link.

Meagan: There’s a video. You’ll have to check it out with Joe Rogan and this lady. I don’t even want to get into it. It was so annoying. I just rolled my eyes the whole time. Anyway, the majority of these people that were transferred, I want to preface. It was not because there was a crazy emergency. It was most common for failure to progress. Failure to progress we know has a lot of things. We know that sometimes failure to progress can be due to cervical scarring or maybe we’ve had really long prodromal labor and things like that. There are a whole bunch of different reasons why but failure to progress and they needed to go to the hospital to then benefit from some of the things that the hospital offers like Pitocin or something like that? 

But still, only 18% which I know sounds high but still, 87% had a successful VBAC at home, so an HBAC. 

Julie: Okay, so I also want to say two things. First of all, the study might have had certain protocols to follow for a transfer. That might have caused the transfer before it was necessary. I don’t know. I haven’t seen this study. But also, the second thing is that I heard somewhere, and it might be different with study protocols, but I heard somewhere and I feel like my circumstances support that most hospital transfers are due to maternal exhaustion. They are so tired. They have labored for so long but I don’t have a number to back that up. But that’s interesting that that study shows that. That’s really cool. 

Meagan: Yeah. There are things. We know that women at home can sometimes lack resources, but you can also talk to your provider if you’re birthing at home and talk about, “Hey if I’m not progressing, what kind of things can we do to help progress?” Sometimes that’s processing and sometimes that’s nipple stimulation. Sometimes that’s getting everyone out of a room, turning off the lights, and taking a nap. There are so many things that go into it but it’s a pretty small study relatively. But still, wow. It does represent something. It represents something and we can’t ignore it. 

But anyway, we are pro-choice. We are pro everybody making the best choice for them but we do. 

Julie: We’re also pro-not watching the system railroad people. 

Meagan: I was going to say that we do see so many things that are so avoidable. I’ve had clients in the past years. One client probably two years ago, she was 38 and 5 I want to say. I’d have to go back and look at my notes and the provider was like, “I don’t know. You look big. It looks like this baby is measuring big. It could be anywhere from 8-10 pounds. We should probably induce. I will totally support this VBAC but let’s induce.” The cervix wasn’t doing much. It just wasn’t an ideal spot to be walking in for an induction and they required breaking water. They wouldn’t put Pitocin in. When the water was broken, they needed Pitocin after that which is interesting. 

She got up to a 1 and started Pitocin, had an IUPC placed, an FSC placed, and all of these things. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it was just so hard because you guys, I adore this person. I adore this person but it was so hard to see these things and see the path that it was going down knowing that the end result was likely coming to a repeat Cesarean when that’s not what she was wanting. It was so hard texting my doula community, my resource group that we all have as birth workers saying, “You guys, pray. Pray. Pray that this is just one of those miracles because it’s one of those situations that we see too often.” It did. It ended in a repeat Cesarean. It was healing. It wasn’t an emergency. She did heal from it, but it didn’t need to happen. 

I can’t say that for a guarantee. I can’t say something wasn’t going to happen, but it didn’t need to happen that way. So women of strength, here we are. We love you. We know that you are in a hard situation. We’ve been there. We’ve been there. Julie’s been told by providers in the hospital that she would rupture. I was told that I would rupture. No. You were told that your baby would die. 

Julie: Me and my baby would die. 

Meagan: Yes. We were told these really scary things. Do we hate the hospital? No. Do we hate it? No. Do we hate what we see in it? Yes. 

Julie: Yeah, a lot of time. 

Meagan: We hate it. We hate what we see. I mean, not always. I can’t say that we always hate what we say but so many times we hate seeing things that are just avoidable. So here we are. Know that we’re here. We’ve got our course. We’ve got the blog. We’ve got this podcast. We’ve got our private Facebook community. We have Instagram. We have so many resources filled with evidence-based information. 

If you are wanting to up your VBAC game and learn the history of VBAC, learn about Cesarean, the history of Cesarean, learn about VBAC, learn how to find the right provider, learn how to tap into where you want to birth, and really tune into that, this course is going to help you walk through that path. Whether or not you choose a Cesarean, you choose a VBAC, you choose an induction, you choose home birth, hospital birth, midwife, OB, unmedicated, medicated, whatever it may be, we are here to support you but it is so important to us that you find that information that you are filled with the evidence-based information ready to take on the birth and have the birth experience. 

So if you want to learn more about all of these resources, check the show notes. They are all going to be listed. Go to thevbaclink.com and click around you guys. You’re going to get lost in there because there is a lot. There is a lot of incredible information. But yeah. Julie, anything you want to add before we let the listeners go? 

Julie: I do. I do have something we want to add. Listen. Me and Meagan want to do a birth together, a VBAC. Maybe at home, maybe at a hospital but if you are in Utah, Salt Lake or Utah County, Weber, Davis, Tooele, Park City, and any of those areas, reach out because we have a special bundle discount that we will give to you if you hire Meagan as your doula and me as your birth photographer. 

Meagan: Yes. We’ve done a birth together as doulas switching up. We’ve never done a birth as a birth photographer and a doula. Julie really wants us to work together. 

Julie: I do. We will be a package deal. We will take some money off of our services for you so that we can have that experience and then you get both of us at your birth which is a total win. 

Meagan: That would be really fun. It would be really, really fun. Okay, listeners, we love you. We love you so much. Happy Cesarean Awareness Month. It’s April. We’re going to be posting those stats and all of the things this month so stay tuned. If you have not followed us on Instagram or Facebook, check us out at @thevbaclink. You can find us anywhere and we are so grateful that you are here. Hopefully, after today’s episode, you’re not unfollowing us on all of this. We love you. We just have to say that. 

Julie: And you can follow me @juliefrancombirth.

Meagan: Yes. You can follow Julie at @juliefrancombirth.

Julie: Bye! 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

It’s so hard to believe that 2022 is coming to a close. Today is our last episode of the year! We have had so many inspiring guests on the podcast in 2022 and are so thankful to all of our listeners. 

No topic is off-limits in today’s Q&A episode. Dr. Christine Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and founder of Sterling Parents. Meagan is here today asking Dr. Sterling questions sent in by our listeners. 

We cannot emphasize enough the importance of interviewing multiple providers, researching evidence-based information, and paying attention to how YOU feel about their responses! 

Additional Links

Dr. Sterling’s Instagram: @drsterlingobgyn

Sterling Parents

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Meagan: Hello, hello. You guys, this is our last episode of the year. 2022 has come and gone and I cannot believe it. So many things have changed this year as you know. Julie has left the company and I’ve been solo for a little bit. That was a big, big change for us, but I am doing one of our first, I should say one of my first, episodes with a birth professional Dr. Christine Sterling. I cannot wait for this episode to be aired because it’s going to be amazing.

Dr. Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and a founder of Sterling Parents which is a membership that provides the heart-felt support, expert advice, and timeless wisdom people deserve as they grow their families. After becoming a mother herself, she discovered first-hand how little support Western medicine offers to women moving through the life-altering transition into motherhood. Amen to that. It makes me sad. It breaks my heart how little support there is.

So now as a mom, she is on a mission and dedicated to ensuring women get the maternal care and support they deserve. Dr. Sterling has developed a signature body, mind, and heart model of care combining cutting-edge science and ancient wisdom with her years of patient care, thousands of births, and long-standing meditation practice.

So, Dr. Sterling, we are so happy that you’re here. I am so happy. I still say we. We as in The VBAC Link. I don’t know if you know, but I used to have a partner named Julie. We had been together for years and years and she has just recently left, so I just can’t get out of the ‘I’ and the ‘we’. I’m always going to be a ‘we’.

Dr. Sterling: You know what? In medicine, we always talk about the ‘we’ when you are part of a team, so I will oftentimes always use the ‘we’.

Meagan: Yes, yes. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I did not cover, all of the amazing things that you do?

Dr. Sterling: I think we will get all into it, but that is the long and short of it.

Meagan: The long and short of it. There’s so much because you are so amazing. Okay well then, we will just dive right in.

Dr. Sterling: Let’s do it.

Meagan: As we were getting questions, a lot of people asked very similar questions. One of the number one questions that people are asking is how do you truly advocate for yourself? What is the best way to advocate for yourself? As a VBAC mom, you can feel very much against the world when you are entering a birth space, and sometimes when you are entering a birth space where there’s an on-call provider like you said, when you work in a team and you don’t know that person and you haven’t really established the relationship of them knowing what you want, it can be hard and with different nurses and all the things. So what would you say is one of the best ways to advocate for yourself as a patient?

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I think that sometimes the word ‘advocate’ can sometimes put a lot of pressure onto the individual that, “I need to advocate.”

Meagan: “I need to be strong.”

Dr. Sterling: Yes, exactly and it feels like this really heavy weight. There’s a mental weight to this, “I have to advocate to get what I need.” I completely understand where that comes from especially when you are wanting a VBAC. It can feel like there are policies going against you and that people aren’t working with you, so I think that the first thing is to hopefully get into a therapeutic relationship with a midwife, a doctor, or a practice of doctors in which there is a collaborative relationship in which advocating isn’t so heavy. It’s a conversation. It is a discussion that you are having with each other.