The Former Lawyer Podcast (Sarah Cottrell)

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I spoke with Nhu-Y Le, Vice President of Client Services at Legalpad. Legalpad is a business immigration company that helps startups immigrate their founders and other talent to the United States. 

I think Y’s story is really helpful in the sense that she illustrates how you can make small moves over time and still end up in a place that works for you. Listen to hear more about Y’s story and to hear some advice if you’re starting to feel unsure that the law is the right path for you.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/111

Today, I'm sharing my conversation with Vanessa Kuljis. Vanessa and I overlapped at the same law school, though we didn't meet each other while we were there. I connected with Vanessa while looking for someone to come into the Collab and help my clients specifically with the CliftonStrengths assessment. 

CliftonStrengths is an assessment that helps you evaluate your natural talents as you're thinking about what you want to do in life. I learned more of her story; about working in Biglaw, finding the assessment, and how it helps her realize working as a coach was the right fit. 

I wanted to share Vanessa’s story with you to give you some insight into how understanding your own strengths can be helpful for you in your process of figuring out what you want to do next.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/132

Summer has arrived! On today’s podcast, Sarah asks listeners the question, “How many vacations does your job have to ruin, cancel, impinge upon, or maybe make you not even plan before you decide enough is enough?” Many lawyers struggle to take vacations, and when they do, it’s a challenge to shut off work and enjoy themselves. 

So many of the people Sarah speaks to face this challenge. They might travel somewhere new but feel like they are expected to remain connected and available to people at work. She knew there were partners senior to her who would go on vacation but still work six hours. If you love working on vacation, that’s great, but for most people, that’s not the case.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/233

In Episode 014 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Jennifer Alvey. Jennifer left the law for a career in legal publishing, and now works as a career coach for lawyers and others looking to make a career change. 

In this conversation, Jennifer shares about:

• Her progression from thinking she just didn’t like her particular legal job to realizing she didn’t want to be a lawyer at all;
• How she found her first job in legal publishing;
• Why writing for a legal publication was completely different from typical legal writing;
• How her blog, which started as a fun side project, turned into an actual business; 
• Why career coaching can only take you so far;
• Why she felt shame about leaving her legal career, and how she dealt with it;
• Why you need to have non-lawyer friends;
• and much more!

Show Notes:

• Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law 
• Connect with Jennifer on her blog, Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter 

Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!

In Episode 012 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Tiffany Duong. Tiffany practiced renewable energy project finance law for five years after law school, until she had an epiphany about her life on a dive boat in the Galapagos Islands. She now works as a climate and environmental advocate and conservation journalist and founded the media advocacy group Ocean Rebels.  

In this conversation, Tiffany shares about:

• How she didn’t anticipate spending all her time working as a lawyer when she went to law school;
• Why law school was “a huge corporate cloud over her very naive green dreams;”
• How law school narrowed her view of what she could do with her law degree;
• Why she felt like she was having a midlife crisis in her late 20s;
• Why she ended up staying in big law firms for five years, even though she originally thought she wouldn’t stay more than a year;
• The trip she took to the Galapagos Islands where she realized that she needed to quit law;
• Why she still struggles with how to fit the lawyer piece within her identity;
• How she uses the skills she developed as a lawyer in her environmental advocacy work;
• Why reimagining her lawyer past has been so helpful;
• How she quit her law firm job and took a year off (and why that was hard);
• What a Google spreadsheet had to do with her decision about what to do next;
• Why being willing to start over again is so important to finding what you truly want to do with your life;
• How selling her house gave her so much freedom;
• Why she doesn’t regret her career change, even though she makes much less money than she did as a lawyer;
• Why managing your ego is one of the most important things you can do to find fulfilling work;
• How you truly can live your “irresponsible dream life”—responsibly;
• and much more!

Connect with Tiffany and Ocean Rebels:

• Websites: http://tiffanyduong.com/; https://oceanrebels.wixsite.com/oceanrebels
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilicedt/; https://www.instagram.com/oceanrebels/

Sarah shares something she has observed in her clients who have worked in the law for a long time. Many of these lawyers fear being the only one with that level of tenure who has ever left the law. 

Today, you’re going to learn why that couldn’t be further from the truth and how the Former Lawyer Collaborative can help any lawyers who are struggling with that fear. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/158

The subject of biglaw burnout amongst lawyers is often talked about. Recently, there have been many articles talking about biglaw burnout, and particularly how associates in biglaw are experiencing burnout because of the way that many of biglaw firms were operating in 2020 and into 2021.

People who are experiencing biglaw burnout have a common set of erroneous beliefs about what they're experiencing. Here's the thing that is most important to remember if you're someone who's in this position, the system is designed to burn you out.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/093

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs, knowing that one is doing harm as a lawyer. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series.

The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict. 

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.

Today's question: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?

Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences. Each person is answering this question today: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?

Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/192

In this episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah interviews Yael Eiserike, a former lawyer turned therapist.

They talk about the challenges of deciding to go back to school, why therapy felt like the best fit for Yael, and what advice she has for any current lawyers debating making a big change in their life. 

Connect with Yael Eiserke

One of the most frustrating things in the legal industry is when you aren't happy with your job, you're feeling a ton of pressure and stress. But when you try to communicate with the non-lawyers in your life, they don't understand.

So today, I want to talk about one specific factor that makes lawyering so stressful. The crushing expectation of perfection in the legal industry.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/129

Today’s podcast episode features Sarah’s conversation with Strawberry Nevill. After connecting through a mutual friend, Sarah invited Strawberry to come on to share their journey from working in public interest.

This area of law has its own challenges and can be very hard to walk away from. Strawberry spent about 15 years in and around the legal field, including three years as a practicing lawyer, so let’s dive in and learn more about their journey.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/214

Enrollment for the next Guided Track is open now. Learn more and reserve your spot.

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer, Sarah takes a break from interviewing former lawyers to talk about a realization that many clients have when trying to find the right post-legal career.  

Something can be simple and still not be easy. While these two words are often used synonymously, they aren’t the same. Not in the case of the process of leaving the law.

Figuring out what you really want to do is quite difficult. And while there are things that can help make the process easier for you, that doesn’t mean that it’s any easier to find the best post-legal career option. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/152

Today’s podcast episode features another conversation with previous guest Annie Little. Sarah is chatting with her about thoughts and advice when it comes to finding a therapist as a lawyer.

They discuss the differences between Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and share their experiences and observations.

If you have been thinking about seeking out a therapist or have experienced this process, this conversation will be helpful.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/232

Are you worried that quitting your job or leaving the law entirely means that you're a quitter?

Most lawyers think that quitting things is bad and wrong. On episode 046, I'm sharing why it's okay to be a quitter, and why it could be the best thing for your career and your life.

This week, I am talking about my interview with Ilona Salmons. She's actually not a lawyer but she works primarily with mental health in lawyers and other high achievers. In fact, in her doctoral research, the subject of it was burnout in lawyers.

I wanted to share this interview with her because some of the things that we talk about quite a bit are mental health and lawyers, lawyer burnout, and the normalized toxicity in legal workplaces.  

People have a lot of questions about it. Let's be real, burnout in lawyers is rampant. It's a huge problem, which is why I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. So, let's get right to the conversation.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/122

On the podcast today, Sarah is talking to Andrew Sohn, a podcast listener. He was practicing law when he began listening to the podcast and decided to transition to career services at a law school.

Andrew shares his journey from law school and deciding to leave the law for the career happiness he's found today.

It was interesting to hear many of the previous podcast themes come up in the conversation, so let’s dive in and learn more about Andrew’s story.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/185

On today’s show, Sarah talks with Stacy Mikulik. Stacy is a former lawyer who is now a jewelry designer and the owner of grace + hudson jewelry. 

In this conversation, Stacy shares:

• The danger of paying too much attention to what other people are saying about your career without listening to yourself as well;
• Why law school was a bad fit for her from the start;
• The confusion she felt about why anyone would want to be a biglaw associate;
• How inspiration from a shop she visited on vacation propelled her into the world of jewelry-making;
• The lessons she learned from opening her first jewelry store and why she’s thankful that she did it even though she ultimately closed it;
• What it was like to run a brick & mortar store while also working as a lawyer, and why she didn’t enjoy running a store;
• How that experience helped her appreciate certain aspects of working as a lawyer;
• Why she is a proponent of therapy for unhappy lawyers;
• How being thoughtful about what success truly means for you can help you clarify what you really want to do with your life;
• and much more!

Check out grace + hudson, and connect with Stacy on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, or by email! 

Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!

Learn more and pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!

Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and

On episode 045, we're tackling another myth that keeps lawyers stuck: the sunk costs fallacy.

Have you ever thought, "If I leave my job/the law, I'll be wasting all the time and money I spent becoming a lawyer!"

Of course you have, because literally every lawyer thinks this at some point (or daily).

In this episode, I talk about how to reframe your thoughts about waste when it comes to your career so that you have a better chance of creating a career and life that you love.

Free First Steps To Leaving The Law Guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide

Career Clarity Intensive Live Workshop—> formerlawyer.com/live

In this interview, Alexis shares:

• Why she left the law after practicing for 18 years;
• How working with an Executive Coach was integral to determining her next move; 
• Why someone who loves legal work can still want to make a change and leave the law;
• Why knowing your own work personality is essential when deciding whether to leave the law;
• The reason she didn’t have pictures of her kids in her office while she was a lawyer (it’s probably not what you think);
• The turning point that caused her to walk away from an extremely lucrative and interesting job (and why she had to resign multiple times!);
• and much more!

Connect with Alexis on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, or by email!

Go to https://formerlawyer.com/guide to get Sarah’s free guide, “First Steps to Leaving the Law,” today!

Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter, and access completely free resources to help you leave the law here!

The episode is an installment in The After series that focuses on showing lawyers that the after is really better than before. This episode features Janelle Christian, who successfully transitioned from big law to life coaching.

In this conversation, Janelle talks to Sarah about being bored in the legal profession and building a side hustle as a lawyer. She talked about how some harmful lies told in the legal field hurt people and make lawyers feel bad about themselves.

You should listen to this conversation to learn how to create lives of autonomy, happiness, freedom, and wealth.

Let's dive in!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/077

Today, we’re going to talk about something that comes up for almost anyone who decides to leave the law to do something else, especially those who started in Biglaw. That is the experience of grieving your legal career.

Now, that may sound sad, but don't worry. This article won’t be super heavy. But it’s something we need to speak about because grieving your career is something that isn’t that’s taught or really even discussed. 

Career grief is unfortunately extremely stigmatized because it’s not how grief is typically known. But career grief can rear its ugly head, even if you want to leave the law and are happy about it. You can learn more about recovering from grief by checking out Stigma Free Grief For Lawyers With Heather Horton. But for now, keep reading to learn more about grieving your legal career.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/156

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series.

The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/190

Lawyers are under constant stress and pressure yet always have a “this is fine” mentality. “Everything will be fine,” we keep telling ourselves. But, is it really fine? And, is “fine” good enough? 

This week, you’ll read about Ed Cottrell, a former lawyer and most importantly, Sarah’s husband. Ed had a legal career for 13 years before leaving the law for a job in legal tech. You’ll notice the ever-present theme of “just fine” in Ed’s legal career journey. 

During their conversation, Sarah and Ed spoke about the positives and negatives of his legal career, how his experience intersected with Sarah’s, and ultimately, how Former Lawyer came to be. 

Sarah and Ed had so much to discuss that this article is divided into two parts. So, without further ado, let’s get into it!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/150

Laura Evans went to law school wanting to be an environmental lawyer. She focused on that all the way to actually practicing environmental law, which is pretty uncommon in the legal world. 

When she eventually left, she didn’t have a plan, but she did still have the passion to make a change for the environment. Now, she works as an environmental planner, still in the environmental space but doing slightly different types of work than before she left the law. 

In their conversation, Sarah and Laura talked a lot about how that happened, she had a panic attack on a Friday, and by Monday, handed in her notice. And, they talked about why that worked out so well for her. Let’s get into the conversation.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/159

Hobbies and side hustles can seem like a distraction when you're on the law firm treadmill. But cultivating interests outside the law is often the ticket to figuring out what you really want to do career-wise. In this episode, Helynn Nelson shares about becoming a level 3 sommelier—and how it helped her figure out that she wanted to leave the law, and what she wanted to look for next.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/058.

In last week's episode, Janelle Christian shared about how she learned to prioritize herself over her job.

In today's episode, she shares about how that included moving from a big firm in D.C. to one in Atlanta to make more space for her life, and ultimately, building a six-figure side business that enabled her to leave Biglaw.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/077.

In Episode 028 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Matt Wheat, a single dad who left the law to become a firefighter. Matt spent most of his legal career in various public interest law jobs. While he was still practicing law, Matt started serving as a volunteer firefighter, fell in love with firefighting, and ultimately left legal practice to make it his full-time career.

In this conversation, Matt shares about:

• Being “consumed” by injustice growing up, which led him to law school;
• The impact that the recession in the aughts had on his rural legal job market;
• Becoming somewhat disenchanted with the legal system as a result of his public interest work;
• Feeling like something was missing from his life, which led him to become a volunteer firefighter;
• Falling in love with firefighting, and what he loves most about it;
• Dealing with his parents’ reaction to his decision to leave the law after they supported him to get there;
• The misconceptions non-lawyers have about lawyers’ finances;
• Why it was worth it to take a paycut to leave, even though he’s a single parent;
• Why he thinks you should only go to law school if you’re motivated by more than just money;
• and much more! 

Show Notes:

• The Former Lawyer Resource Vault—> formerlawyer.vipmembervault.com
• Connect with Matt by email 

To celebrate the 100th episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing something a little different than usual, an interview with me about how I transitioned out of the law and began Former Lawyer. 

I first shared my story on the very first episode of the podcast two years ago, but I didn't go into a ton of detail around how I transitioned out of the law and that was a long time ago, so I wanted to share a little bit more of my story. 

To help with this, Jessica Medina, a former Biglaw lawyer turned financial coach and accredited financial counselor, is going to interview me. This is going to be the first half of our conversation because we had so much to talk about. This is basically my story in the same format that you typically hear other people's stories. 

I'm really excited for you to enjoy this episode, we talked about some things about transitioning out of the law that I haven't talked about before.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/100

There’s one thing you need to know about being miserable as a lawyer: it is not normal. I want to say that again, it’s not normal to be miserable in your job.

I often see lawyers who think that it is normal since everyone around them is miserable in their jobs. Even though their complaint is not so much about the hard work that goes into being a lawyer, but about the indignities that they suffer from colleagues and other people, somehow we have accepted that being miserable at work is normal, even to be expected. 

That is especially true for someone like me who went straight from undergrad to law school. You can have an outlook that goes sheer misery is just part of having a “real job” and being part of the “working world”.

I want to be as clear as possible, sheer misery as a lawyer is not normal. 

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/104

Annie Little is an ICF-certified career coach and a former lawyer. Her company is called JD Nation, which was founded in 2012. In 2013, Annie left her position in real estate finance. Since then, she’s been coaching lawyers to help them land and succeed in their ideal jobs.

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I was joined by Annie Little to talk about a topic that isn’t covered enough. The topic is what you can expect to pay when you’re looking for career coaching as a lawyer.

In this article, I’ll be reviewing what we discussed about the pros and cons of one-on-one career coaching and working in a group. We’ll also be sharing our own experiences in career coaching for lawyers and what we’ve observed.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/110

In this conversation, Toya shares about:

• Why the transition from an undergrad engineering major to law school was so jarring;
• How most law students think they’re going to snag a highly paid job, but the numbers reveal otherwise;
• Why she expected to enjoy legal practice, even though she didn’t love the law school environment;
• What practice she turned to when she realized that she didn’t like patent law (the obvious choice for her as an engineer);
• What she loved about running her own practice (that had nothing to do with legal work);
• How her “whole life shifted” when she experienced what was eventually diagnosed as clinical depression;
• The extremely high rates of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse amongst lawyers;
• Why her best friend had to tell her that what she was experiencing was not normal before she realized she should get help;
• Why being high-functioning and a lawyer poses significant obstacles to people getting help for mental health issues;
• Why everyone should see a therapist;
• How Legally Bold grew from what she learned through her own experience of depression and the knowledge that many lawyers experience the same; 
• and much more! 

Show Notes:

• Enroll in 8 Weeks to an Exit Plan—> formerlawyer.com/group
• Connect with Toya on her website, Instagram, or LinkedIn

Are you sick of your job as a lawyer and want to find an alternative career? Have you been searching for a coaching program for lawyers that can support you in that process?

If you've been thinking about investing in a coaching program for lawyers or even working with a career coach, then today’s blog post will be helpful. 

Today I am talking about what to expect in the Guided Track, my upcoming group coaching program for lawyers who want to leave the legal profession and pursue an alternative career.

Learn more about The Guided Track at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/153

Kicking off a new podcast series, The After Series. 

The new series will help unhappy lawyers who are hesitant to quit their soul-sucking jobs for fear of what comes next or because of uncertainty see that quitting to follow their passion makes things better than before. 

Why the After Series is Important

Sarah notes that a common trait among her clients, especially those in Biglaw, is disbelief that things could get better than they currently are in their job. Those working in Biglaw firms can attest that a lot of emotional and mental manipulation happens in these firms. 

The incredibly toxic environment makes it hard to believe that doing something outside the law will help these lawyers feel better or enjoy a better life. These lawyers constantly wonder if things are better on the other side of the law. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/164

There are a lot of different obstacles that you may be running into as you consider leaving legal practice, but three of the biggest are Lawyer Brain, the Lawyer Bubble, and Other People's Opinions. Today, I'm sharing how to recognize these obstacles and how to defeat them.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/074.

Sarah kicks off a new series on today’s podcast with Annie Little, another lawyer career coach. Annie has been on the podcast a few times in the past, like the episode on ADHD. She founded her company, JD Nation, and helps lawyers find better jobs, both in and out of law. 

In this series, the two of them discuss the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber and dive into some of the book’s observations. This first episode covers why you should care about this book and answer, “Is being a lawyer a bullshit job?”

Today, I'm sharing my conversation with Karen Spencer. Karen is a former lawyer who responded to my requests for guests who had experience in patent law. Karen has an interesting background, coming to the legal profession from engineering. First, she wanted to work in general commercial law but ended up in patent law. She soared through the legal realm, even making partner at a large law firm before exiting the legal profession for a startup.

Like all my guests, Karen realized the law wasn’t for her and decided to explore her options, eventually landing in her position at SearchFunder. Let’s get into my conversation with Karen Spencer.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/142

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber.

It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job, and today, it’s time to dive into the third misery that comes with bullshit jobs. If you missed the first two, go back and catch up.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/189

Nnamdi Nwaezeapu is a law school student, entrepreneur, and author of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer: How to Pursue Your Dreams Without Giving Your Parents A Heart Attack. 

On this episode Nnamdi shares how his experience as a first generation student shaped his decision to pursue his entrepreneurial interests and create a resource for others grappling making an alternative career choice. 

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/092

In today’s episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks about the offers she has available for lawyers who are interested in leaving law and looking for some resources to help organize thoughts and plans.

Sarah offers three different programs, each building off the base of the Collaborative and providing a different level of accountability and follow-up depending on your needs. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/197

I recently had a conversation with a Collab member about how the legal system normalizes things that really aren't normal about law firm office culture.

This likely isn’t new to you, but there are some things that we just can't talk about enough. In this epiosde, I want to talk about working from home and the impact of the pandemic on law firm office culture.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/113

In this episode, I'm sharing my conversation with Geoffrey Stein. After more than 10 years of legal practice, Geoffrey went to art school and became a full-time artist and portrait painter.

Full show notes at formerlawyer.com/063.

In today’s podcast, Sarah is kicking off a new series where listeners will hear first-hand experiences from her clients. In each episode, one question will be asked, and you’ll get to hear answers from multiple people. 

Each of the clients answering this question is part of the Collab. This is a self-paced program where you get access to The Former Lawyer Framework, the curriculum that helps people figure out what they want to do outside of the law. Collab members are also given access to the Circle community, which is a group of people who can relate to the struggles of leaving the law.

The question kicking this off is: What is one thing that you resisted doing in this process of figuring out what you want to do that isn’t practicing law that you wish you had done sooner?

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/191

We're doing things a little differently on today's episode. It's my first solo episode since all the way back in episode 001, when I shared a little bit about my own journey out of the law.⁠
⁠
With everything that's happening with the COVID-19 pandemic, I wanted to share a few thoughts that I hope are helpful for those of you who aren't happy in your job right now.⁠
⁠
In the episode, I share four things that I think unhappy lawyers need to know right now. ⁠

Today’s podcast episode is an important reminder every lawyer needs to hear.

Sarah reminds listeners that nothing about your job is as important as you and your emotional, mental, and physical health. For lawyers, it’s easy to feel their value as human beings is basically in job performance. 

It’s tough for lawyers to feel like they exist outside the lawyer bubble. Working a lot and being chronically sleep-deprived keeps your nervous system in a state that makes it hard to maintain perspective.

The systems are designed to cause you to lose perspective, especially in large firms. The system benefits when you are all caught up in your own performance for the organization.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/229

Jennifer Park decided to chart her own path after law school, working for a legal tech company instead of Biglaw. 

On this episode, Jennifer shares why she decided this path was right for her, how she made the tough decision despite external pressure, and how you can get into legal tech or another booming industry with the skills you have. 

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/090

On today’s show, Sarah talks with Heidi Mueller. Heidi is a former lawyer who is now the Director of the Illinois Department of Juvenile Justice. 

In this conversation, Heidi shares about:

• Why she had an inkling that she might want to leave law firm life even before she started;
• How she struggled with guilt over the fact that she didn’t like working as a big firm lawyer;
• The article she read that affirmed her decision to leave;
• Why she freaked out just as she was leaving her firm, even though she knew she wanted to leave;
• How she got hired for multiple jobs after leaving the law firm without ever again applying for a job;
• How a complete stranger was the person who seemed most disturbed by her choice to leave law practice;
• Why therapy can be so helpful when you are making a decision about leaving the law;
• How you can get more involved in juvenile justice work if you’re interested;
• and much more!

Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!

Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!

Maya Markovich is the Chief Growth Officer at Nextlaw Labs, an innovation company in the legal tech industry. Maya pioneered her way to this position after her jump from practicing law. Her passion to create influential change was her driving force, and with that, Maya found a post-legal career that she’s extremely talented at, and most importantly, that she is passionate about.

In this episode, we talk about Maya’s journey from practicing law to her post-legal career in legal tech. Keep reading to learn about her realization that practicing law wasn’t the right path and what she did to find the perfect post-legal career.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/103

Do you think that you're too old to change careers and quit law? My guest today, Hector Chavez, decided to make the move from law to nursing right before his 40th birthday. He knew he wasn't happy with his legal career. But he worried that starting over at 40 was foolish.

Today he's sharing about how his worries were totally unfounded and why you shouldn't let the imaginary barrier of age stop you from making a career change that's right for you.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/055.

One of the most important things that lawyers need to do if they want to successfully figure out an alternative career is to develop self-compassion and to learn how to be kind to themselves. You may be skeptical, but in this podcast episode, I'm sharing why self-compassion is essential to finding career satisfaction and figuring out what's next for you.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/067.

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer podcast, I talked about The Eight Signs of a Toxic Legal Workplace. For this episode, I am going to pull heavily from a great piece by Ilona Salmons, who is a therapist that specializes in working with lawyers.

You may have noticed that toxic workplaces often come up a lot on the podcast. The reason that I think this topic is important to talk about is that toxic workplaces are the number one contributor to burnout. 

As you’re reading, I want you to think about whether or not this is true for your work environment, and to think about why seeing these signs matters. Keep reading to learn the 8 signs of a toxic workplace and what you can do to avoid burnout. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/120

This week, I’m sharing my conversation with Dr. Jan Newman. Jan moved from Biglaw associate to clinical psychologist and executive coach who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives. 

She is a published author, researcher, and frequent speaker on emotional intelligence, interpersonal effectiveness, and psychological flexibility. In her former life, she was a practicing lawyer.

This is an incredible conversation with some amazing takeaways about finding a different career path.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/037

In Episode 015 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Simi Botic, who worked as a corporate healthcare associate at a law firm for almost four years before leaving to run her own business. Simi is a certified holistic health coach, Intuitive Eating counselor, and the author of Letting Go Of Leo: How I Broke Up With Perfection, a memoir about overcoming her decades long struggle with feeling like she wasn't enough. Through her work, she helps women all over the world ditch perfection and heal their relationships with food and body image so they can begin to embrace their beautifully imperfect lives. 

In this conversation, Simi shares about:

• Going to law school because she wasn’t sure what else to do with her sociology degree;
• Why her dad thought she should go to law school, and how him telling her that from a young age affected her thought process about law school;
• The role that her perfectionist personality played into getting her into law school and keeping her there;
• How graduating in 2011 affected her feelings about the job offer she received from a firm in her hometown of Columbus;
• Why her personality was such a bad fit for litigation, and how a move to a different practice area was her saving grace;
• How her side hustle helped her realize that the practice of law was not for her;
• How she built up her business on the side to the point that it could replace her income from her firm job before leaving the law;
• The value of playing the long game in leaving the law, and how to approach your legal job if your plan to leave is a long-term one;
• How to go about figuring out what you should do career-wise if you want to leave the law, but aren’t sure what’s next;
• and much more!

Show Notes:

• Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law 
• Connect with Simi on her website or on Instagram, and check out her book

Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!

This week, I'm sharing my conversation with Lauren Tetenbaum. Lauren is, of course, a former lawyer, and now, practicing therapist, licensed as a social worker that specializes in providing mental health services and advocacy related to maternal wellness. She's joining me to share her journey pursuing mental health after leaving the legal profession.

What’s interesting about Lauren’s story is that a large number of former lawyers tend to be drawn towards various helping professions including therapists.

I personally have a very strong interest in talking about mental health and making sure that other lawyers feel comfortable talking about their own mental health. In this article, you’ll learn a bit about Lauren’s journey in the legal profession and how she realized that becoming a therapist was the right path. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/114

Have you found yourself crying in your office, or on the way to the office, or when working at home? Crying because of your job is weirdly normalized in the legal profession. In episode 042 of the podcast, I'm talking about why your job should not make you cry.

Join the next cohort of the Collaborative that starts June 1—> formerlawyer.com/collab

Debi Yadegari is a former lawyer who worked in biglaw and in-house law. These days, she runs Villyge, a company that helps organizations support working parents. This company came out of her own experience of observing the workplace culture and lack of support for working parents in biglaw and in-house law firms. 

She saw how working parents, or any human being who wanted to have interests and a life outside of work, were not being supported by their employers. Like many of us, this story started with a passion to make a change in the world. While Debi was able to do that, she eventually realized that it was all too much.

After leaving the law because of the workplace culture, she launched Villyge, becoming a working mother of five. Keep reading to learn about Debi’s journey in law and her journey to creating Villyge.

Shownotes formerlawyer.com/108

Are you crying because of your job as a lawyer? Hang tight for some advice!

This is by far the most popular episode that has been released on The Former Lawyer Podcast. The title is ‘Your Job Should Not Make You Cry’. 

In this article, you’ll talk a little bit more about why that is true and what it means for you if this is your experience working in the law. So, let’s get started!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/042

Annie Little worked as a commercial lending and real estate lawyer for 7 years before allowing herself to consider the possibility that there was a better path for her.

In this conversation, we talk about how she made the transition to running her own lawyer career coaching business, why moving towards something is so much more hopeful and empowering than running away from something else, how Annie busted through some limiting beliefs about what smart, capable women should do when it comes to career and family, and some of the unique challenges lawyers face when it comes to their identity.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/053.

This week on the podcast, we are re-releasing an episode that came out about this time last year. It's one of the most popular episodes of the podcast. This episode answers one of the biggest questions that I get, which is, “I don't want to be a lawyer anymore, what can I do?” 

There are actually two dimensions to this question. When I’m asked this, it’s usually like, “I don't want to be a lawyer. What are my other career options? And, trust me, I know it’s frustrating. When I realized that I did not want to be a lawyer, I literally had no idea what to do next.

We’re on this one-way track to becoming a lawyer, and once you realize that the law isn’t the right fit for you, it can be extremely overwhelming to think about what else you can do for a career. 

Listen in to get the answer to what you can do when you realize that you don’t want to be a lawyer.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/066

We know that the mental health stats regarding lawyers are grim, but what is it really like to experience anxiety and panic as a lawyer?

In this conversation (the first of two parts), Annie Little and I take a deep dive into our own experiences with generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder. Annie has worked as a lawyer career coach for the last 7 years, and before that, practiced commercial lending and real estate law for 7 years.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/051.

This week, I want to talk about an issue that I see come up so often for lawyers. What we're going to talk about today is the mindset of "if you're not suffering in the law, you're not working hard enough." It's particularly prevalent in really toxic work environments or workplaces, where being consistently overworked is normalized. 

Want to learn more? Let’s get started. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/135

Janelle Christian skipped the LSAT twice, and only took it on her third go-round because her parents drove her to the testing site.

She says, "My soul was screaming to not be a lawyer, but I still felt like it was what people wanted me to do. It was the right path, it was the prestigious path."

In this first part of our two-part conversation, Janelle shares about her early career as a lawyer and how she came to learn that she could prioritize herself over her work. 

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/076.

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I asked Kara Hardin to come back on the podcast to talk about trauma and lawyers. You may remember her previous episode where she talked about leaving the law for a career in mental health.  We've had several therapists on the podcast recently, like Ilona Salmons, who came on the podcast to discuss burnout in lawyers. In all of these conversations, trauma from being a lawyer was a common theme. 

Today, we’re going to focus on trauma and lawyers. We’re also going to talk a bit about the big influx of former lawyers seeking a new career in mental health. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/131

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing answers from Collab members for another question as part of the summer series. Each episode in the series asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.

Today's question is: what’s something you've learned that you wish you could go back and tell the you of five years ago?

Sarah is sharing these responses and talking about how common it is to feel this way. You are not alone if you are struggling in your law career, and it’s possible that you wish you could give the you of five years ago some information as well.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/195

On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I spoke with Ashley Chi. Ashley worked in Biglaw for seven years in patent litigation. Then, she went in-house and managed outside patent attorneys. Now, she works as a legal recruiter.  The episode was listener-requested, looking for a former lawyer who had experience in Biglaw patent work and has had experience in that field as a woman with the dynamics that exist in Biglaw. So without further ado, let's get to my conversation with Ashley about working as a woman in Biglaw and patents.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/138

For this Thanksgiving week podcast, Sarah is sharing the three reasons why she’s grateful she made the choice to stop practicing law. Many lawyers who are considering making a change spend so much time thinking about everything that could go wrong.

It’s a big decision, but it’s also really important to think about what has led you to this moment and think about what you’ll gain. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/210

Do I really want to leave the law? Or is it just my particular job? How do I know whether it's just my particular job or whether it's the law entirely?

This is one of the most asked questions by people who want to leave the law. I literally have conversations with people about this every week, so we're going to talk about it today. 

I can’t answer this question for you. But today, I'm going to pull this question apart and help you look past the doubt it causes, so you can answer it yourself.  Let’s dive in!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/133

In Episode 031 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Adam Kol. Adam practiced tax law before leaving to become a couples financial counselor.

In this conversation, Adam shares about:

• The way that the expectations of others drove him to law school;
• Quitting his tax lawyer job at Deloitte to spend a year as an animal activist supported by his savings;
• Working at a non-profit as a lawyer supporting initiatives to combat homelessness;
• Why he started coaching people as a side hustle;
• How his life got out of balance and how he identified what needed to change;
• How getting laid off spurred him to focus on his coaching practice full-time;
• Stumbling into the niche of couples financial counseling;
• Seeing his clients’ lives change when they are able to communicate about money and problem-solve regarding their money together;
• Dealing with loved ones’ disappointment and anger about leaving his legal career;
• His advice on how to start a conversation about money for lawyers who have a partner and are wanting to make a career change;
• and much more! 

Show Notes:

• Connect with Adam on his website, LinkedIn, Instagram, or listen to his podcast, The Equal Partners Podcast

On episode 43 of the podcast, we're kicking off a series where we'll be talking about some of the myths that keep lawyers stuck in jobs they hate. This week: the myth of the perfect next step. Spoiler alert: there is no perfect next step! Listen in to hear why that's a good thing.

Many lawyers find themselves asking, “Am I depressed, or am I burnt out?” This comes up when they are thinking about leaving the law, and it’s not a new topic on the podcast. In the episode where Sarah spoke to Ilona Salmons, they did a deep dive into burnout and what it is. Mental health is a common topic brought up in the Former Lawyer community, and many lawyers deal with misery by intellectualizing things. Today, Sarah is revisiting this topic and sharing a few important thoughts.

Sarah often talks about therapy on the podcast. It is extremely helpful if you feel burned out or depressed. Engage a qualified mental health therapist to work with. They can help you evaluate what’s going on in your mind in your life with some objectivity and clinical expertise. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/225

In this episode, you’ll learn about Aliza Shatzman, a former lawyer turned co-founder of a non-profit called Accountability Project. 

Aliza shares the circumstances that led her to decide to leave the legal system and start The Legal Accountability Project. The Legal Accountability Project seeks to ensure that as many law clerks as possible have a positive clerkship experience while extending support and resources to those who do not.

Sarah and Aliza also discuss some popular topics on the podcast, like the dysfunction in the legal system and what needs to change. This is an extremely important conversation that everyone in the profession should be having, so stay tuned!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/147

Today, I am sharing my conversation with David Sparks. David practiced law for close to 30 years and he has only recently left his job in the law to focus on his side hustle, MacSparky. 

In our conversation, we spoke about many different things including what he has found surprising about leaving the law, some of the responses he's received, and lots of other things. 

I'm excited to share this conversation unique story with you. So, let's get right into my conversation with David Sparks.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/140

In Episode 009 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Jen Berson. Jen is a former lawyer who owns and run her own PR Agency, Jeneration PR, and teaches others how to start and grow their own successful agency.

In this conversation, Jen shares:

• How she originally got on the path to law school because she was looking for a reason to stay in the city where she went to college for the summer;
• Why observing women more senior to her in her law firm made her realize that working at a firm was not for her;
• What caused her realization that she could make her life happen for her instead of feeling like it was just happening to her;
• How she was advised by a female mentor to ignore mistreatment by a partner because it would be “career suicide”, but bravely spoke up anyway;
• How she started doing unpaid PR work on the side while working as a lawyer, before realizing it was something companies would pay for;
• How she dealt with her parents’ negative reactions to her decision to leave the law;
• How leaving the law ultimately inspired her husband to make his own career change;
• How she built a PR business from scratch, and the kind of work she’s doing now;
• Why she tripled her rates overnight, and landed her dream client the next day;
• Why your experience in law really can help you in so many other careers;
• and much more!

Check out Jeneration PR, and connect with Jen on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter! 

Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!

Pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!

Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook,

Sarah talked with Karen Gulde a few months ago as part of the former lawyers turned therapists month. Karen talked about her experience of hypervigilance as a lawyer, the experience of her nervous system is constantly activated, and how common that is for lawyers.

Sarah’s husband, Ed Cottrell, posted a reaction to that on LinkedIn and shared his experiences in the last year since he left law. 

In this episode, Sarah chats more with Ed about his experience with hypervigilance and leaving the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/180

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable.

Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first. Then, let’s dive into the second reason.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/188

What do you do when you realize none of your strengths are rewarded in Biglaw—and many of your strengths are actually considered weaknesses? Hear how Alex Su went from a top law school to a top Biglaw firm, realized it wasn't for him, found his way into legal tech sales, and learned some important lessons on the way. Full show notes at formerlawyer.com/054.

On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Adriana Paris. Adriana stopped practicing law after ten years and moved into a new role at a law firm. She is the director of professional development and legal recruiting for a regional law firm with about 100 lawyers.

In addition, she has a coaching business on the side where she helps lawyers with personal productivity, which helps them create time and space for themselves. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/182

Sarah sees many clients who change careers within the law, like becoming in-house lawyers, but at the end of the day, they are still lawyers. When people think that switching to entertainment law will be a fun and exciting change, it’s important to step back and ask some more questions.

Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Jordan Nahmias. Jordan used to practice law as an entertainment lawyer and is now a coach and strategist in Toronto, Canada. He talks about his experience and his path out of law. Many people consider exploring this area when thinking about leaving the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/228

After leaving law, former lawyers follow many career paths depending on their interests and skills. Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Ashley Carlisle, the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of HyperDraft.

If you are considering marketing as an option after leaving the law, this podcast has some great information for you.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/218

In episode 041 of the podcast, I'm sharing why I think Biglaw is inhospitable to human life (spicy!), and why I think it's particularly important for women in Biglaw to figure out what they want from their careers.

If you want to be the first to hear all the spicy takes I have about legal practice, join my email list by downloading the First Steps To Leaving The Law guide at formerlawyer.com/guide.

In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell and Annie Little engaged in a candid conversation about ADHD and its prevalence among lawyers. They dive into an intriguing question that came in on social media after a previous ADHD conversation: Does being a lawyer give you ADHD? 

 The podcast revealed some compelling insights about ADHD in the legal profession and debunked misconceptions. If you're a lawyer contemplating a career change, this blog post is for you. We'll break down the essential points from the podcast and explore the real challenges lawyers with ADHD face, shedding light on why they may be considering leaving the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/206

On today’s show, Sarah talks with Nicolle Neulist, a former lawyer who went from lawyer, to information security consultant and analyst, to writing about horse-racing. 

In this conversation, Nicolle shares about:

• Realizing during law school that law was not a good fit;
• Leaving the law after less than a year as a lawyer;
• Internally dancing a jig when being laid off during the 2009 contraction of the legal industry;
• Being willing to accept having law school debt forever in exchange for not hating your job;
• The mindset most lawyers have about how their career should go that holds them back from considering other options;
• Why you need to learn to listen to yourself when it comes to your job and career;
• and much more!

Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!

Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!

In this episode, Sarah discusses starting 2023 with a new podcast series that features previous clients in the Former Lawyer Collaborative.

People who listen to the new series will hear the inspiring stories of former lawyers who quit their soul-sucking jobs by following Sarah's tried-and-true advice and strategies. These former lawyers are now in careers they love and are enjoying the life they now live to the fullest!

Learn more about The Guided Track.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/165

First things first. You are totally justified in thinking coaching is a scam. Why is that? Because in the great big online world, there are a ton of “coaches” and coaching programs out there that are straight-up scams. 

That certainly doesn’t mean that all coaching is a scam. However, many people who present themselves as coaches are not legit. They engage in questionable practices and frankly do not have the best interests of their clients in mind.

In this article, a certified coach and coaching program creator, you’ll learn how you can avoid coaching scams to save time and money for something you’ll get value from. Let’s get right into it. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/161

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah has a conversation with Romy Frazier. Romy is a former lawyer who transitioned from practicing law into real estate investing.

The conversation is extremely helpful because she shares the importance of taking action and making a plan while moving gradually through the process. There are always some good takeaways from listening to someone else’s stories.

Let’s get to know Romy and learn about her story.

Learn more about The Guided Track

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/199

Today’s podcast marks a special milestone. It’s the 200th episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast. To celebrate, Sarah sat down with Stacey Harris of Uncommonly More, who Sarah works with to produce the podcast, to talk about how the podcast came to be and what it created.

Other Episodes Mentioned:

Lawyers, Your Job Should Not Make You Cry

The “No Assholes Rule” (And Why It’s A Joke)

Is Being A Lawyer A Bullshit Job?

Burnout In Lawyers with Ilona Salmons

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/200

Sarah spoke with last week’s guest, Megan Nogasky, again on this week’s podcast to dive deeper into the idea of taking mental health breaks.

They chatted about the importance of listening to the signs, how to take the first steps, and some of the common challenges lawyers have in taking a mental health break.

If you missed last week's episode, make sure to listen to learn more about Megan’s story of leaving law and turning to the mental health field. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/176

In today’s episode, Sarah talks about how people look at those who leave law firms. The views tend to be distorted, especially from others who work at the firm.

This comes up often in Sarah’s conversations with former lawyers and people who are still currently working in law, so today, she’s diving in a bit deeper.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/184

In Episode 008 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah has a conversation with Alex Davis. Alex is a former lawyer who is now a writer, content expert, and consultant. Alex’s company, Davis Legal Media, helps attorneys and firms create content strategies to attract their ideal clients.

In this conversation, Alex shares:

• How she decided she was going to be a lawyer at a very young age;
• Why “you’re so good at arguing” is not a good reason to go to law school;
• Why she “hit the accelerator” towards a traditional legal career after starting law school without really considering whether that career would be a good fit;
• How the sunk costs fallacy holds law students and lawyers back;
• Why litigation was not a good fit for her personality type;
• Why she struggled with feeling like there was something wrong with her when she realized she didn’t like practicing law;
• Why she wishes The Former Lawyer Podcast was around when she felt stuck in her lawyer job (hey thanks! :) ); 
• The struggle with feeling directionless once she realized she didn’t want to work as a lawyer; 
• How she got the idea for her next move from work she was doing for her own firm;
• The “plan” she had (air quotes her own!) for the company she founded after she left legal practice;
• What content marketing for lawyers is and how it differs from advertising;
• Why she thinks we need to flip the script about lawyers and anxiety;
• How personality typing systems like the Enneagram can help you understand yourself and what career might be the best fit for you;
• Why we need to challenge the false narrative that you have failed if you decide you don’t like working as a lawyer;
• and much more!

Interested in the Enneagram? Here are some resources to check out:

• https://assessment.yourenneagramcoach.com/ (free)
• https://www.truity.com/test/enneagram-personality-test (free)
• https://tests.enneagraminstitute.com/ ($12)
• https://www.instagram.com/enneagramandcoffee

Check out Davis Legal Media

Robert Ingalls practiced criminal law, civil litigation, and estate planning before deciding to leave the law and start his company, Lawpods, which produces podcasts for law firms.

On this episode of the podcast, Robert shares about how his podcasting hobby turned into a full-time career that he loves.

Show notes at formerlawyer.com/083.

In Episode 016 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Goli Kalkhoran, who quit law and started a portable photo booth company, Usie Booth. Goli also hosts the podcast Lessons from a Quitter, where she interviews inspiring people who have left traditional careers to start over and create a life they love.

In this conversation, Goli shares about:

• Deciding that she was going to become a lawyer when she was 10 years old;
• Heading off to law school convinced she would love the lawyer life;
• Why she wasn’t surprised she didn’t like working at a law firm, but didn’t think that meant she shouldn’t be a lawyer;
• How the culture of misery amongst lawyers is so common and so destructive;
• Why a move to a new state kept her from returning to her lawyer job as planned (and why she thinks without the move, she probably would have gone back even though she was miserable);
• Feeling sick as she looked for a new lawyer job after moving, and how it made her realize she should consider other options;
• Why she put off telling people she was leaving the law for almost 6 months after she made the decision to do it;
• The process that led to her making the decision to leave the law;
• Learning to question the stories that she believed about herself;
• Why you probably already know what you really want, and how to listen to yourself;
• and much more!

Show Notes:

• Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law 
• Connect with Goli on her website, Instagram, or Facebook

Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Heather Davies, another former lawyer.

Heather’s new career as a professional organizer is something that many listeners have messaged Sarah about, so they chat about her journey to become a lawyer and what led to her transition to a professional organizer.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/211

In Episode 010 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Francesca Chang. While in law school, Francesca realized that she didn’t want to practice law, and instead travels and works as a freelance travel writer and marketing consultant.

In this conversation, Francesca shares about:

• How she chose to go to law school because she thought it would be a way to contribute to social change;
• How she realized in law school that the legal profession was not for her, but deciding to finish law school and take the bar anyway;
• The pushback she received from the law students and lawyers around her once she decided not to pursue a legal career, and her strategy for dealing with negative responses;
• Why student loan debt from law school didn’t hold her back from leaving the law behind;
• How she remarketed herself after law school to get a job doing digital marketing for lawyers and legal tech;
• How she relocated to Taiwan with her husband and landed jobs doing digital marketing for a tour company and travel writing for the Tourism Bureau of Taiwan;
• Her advice to people looking to make a career change into digital marketing;
• Why you need to be comfortable with the fact that leaving the law and finding what you want to do is a process;
• Why changing careers was worth the risk;
• and much more!

Connect with Francesca:

• Blog: https://attorneyonajourney.net
• Instagram: https://instagram.com/attorney_on_a_journey

Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!

Connect with Former Lawyer:

• Website: https://formerlawyer.com/
• Instagram: https://instagram.com/formerlawyer
• Facebook: https://facebook.com/formerlawyerpod
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/formerlawyerpod
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/former-lawyer

For this episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah chatted with Heather Moulder. Heather worked in Biglaw and even made partners. But in the end, she left to inspire and impact people as a success coach for lawyers. 

In this conversation, you’ll learn about Heather’s career in Biglaw and how she discovered coaching. You’ll also get to read how a huge life event and her values helped her make the career shift. 

This is an amazing read for anyone constantly battling with their values and career in the law. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/157

Nnamdi Nwaezeapu is a law school student, entrepreneur, and author of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer: How to Pursue Your Dreams Without Giving Your Parents A Heart Attack. His book is geared towards children of immigrants who are navigating and deciding what to do as a career and whether to pursue being a doctor, lawyer or engineer or take an alternative path.

This is part two of our conversation with Nnamdi where we dive into the mindset and fear of career change that lawyers experience when considering alternative career paths.

See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/094

In Episode 037 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Dr. Jan Newman. Jan is a licensed clinical psychologist and executive coach who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives. She is a published author and researcher and a frequent speaker on topics related to emotional intelligence, interpersonal effectiveness, and psychological flexibility.  In her former life, she was an intellectual property attorney in Biglaw.

In this conversation, Jan shares about:

• Going to law school because people told her she was good at persuading people;
• Hearing her family talk about law being a prestigious profession, and telling her that she would make a good lawyer (although her mom vehemently denies that this happened!);
• Why she thinks the legal profession can’t live up to its hype;
• Deciding she was going to leave the law before she actually left (and what that means);
• Realizing her first day of law school that it was a mistake;
• The moment that she realized law was not for her (and also that everyone she worked with had lost their minds);
• Why, after she decided she was going to leave the law, she lateraled from her regional law firm to biglaw;
• Approaching her decision to leave law like a series of experiments;
• Realizing she was getting hooked by the money in biglaw (and what she did about it);
• Applying to psychology PhD programs twice before she actually left biglaw;
• How she uses her background as a lawyer in her psychology practice now;
• The three books she recommends all lawyers read;
• Why unhappy lawyers often believe they can think their way out of their problems (and why they’re wrong);
• and much more! 

Show Notes:

• Free First Steps to Leaving the Law guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
• Apply to secure your spot in the Former Lawyer Collaborative application queue—> formerlawyer.com/collab
• Books Jan mentioned in this episode:
  • Happiness Trap

This week on the podcast, I'm excited to share my interview with Rho Thomas. Rho and I originally connected when she was still working as a lawyer in a Biglaw firm, and she had developed an interest in personal finance.

More recently, I saw that Rho had left her job in Biglaw and she was now doing this work as a financial coach for lawyers. So, naturally, I asked her to come on the podcast, and here we are.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/124

On the latest episode of the podcast, Sarah had a conversation with Adam Pascarella about his journey in and out of Biglaw. 

Adam is currently the founder and CEO of Second Order Capital Management. But before that, Adam worked in Biglaw as an associate and ended up writing a book while leaving the law. 

The process Adam went through to figure out what he wanted to do after leaving the law is so interesting. So, stick around to read all about Adams’s journey in writing a book while leaving the law!

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/146

In this conversation, Risa shares about:

• Why she’s half-serious when she says she went to law school out of spite (you do not want to miss this story!);
• How she hated all the legal classes she took in undergrad and was convinced she shouldn’t go to law school;
• What receiving a breakup letter by FedEx has to do with her changing her mind and deciding to go to law school;
• Hating law school as soon as it started and seriously considering dropping out;
• Why she turned down an offer from her 2L summer firm;
• Quitting her first job as a lawyer after only one month;
• Where she got the idea to pursue event planning, and how she moved into that market;
• What made her decide to take her event and wedding planning side hustle full-time;
• Why she didn’t care what people thought when she decided not to be a lawyer anymore, and why she doesn’t think becoming a lawyer was a waste;
• and much more! 

Show Notes:

• Enroll in 8 Weeks to an Exit Plan—> formerlawyer.com/group
• Connect with Risa on her website, Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, or LinkedIn

On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Jayci Lee, a former lawyer who has become an author since leaving her job as a litigator. The conversation covers everything from the process of leaving law to the importance of caring for mental health.

Sarah discovered Jayci after reading one of her books where the main character is a lawyer. One former lawyer instantly recognized another, and she knew Jayci would be a great podcast guest. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/181