The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast (Dr Clint Heacock)

In this second episode with David Haward, "the Naked Pastor," we get even more in depth processing the experiences of those who are deconstructing their former faith.

David breaks down exactly just how all-pervasive religion can be, as well as the effects on their followers. Thus, leaving such a context--where we formed relationships and our very identities--is extremely difficult.

It will likely take us...the rest of our lives! Join us on the journey.

This week's episode features a fascinating conversation with Marissa Hackett, who grew up in a right-wing cult started by controversial radio host, Roy Masters. Originally starting out in the early 1960s, Masters spread his message nationwide through his radio show, tapes, and book sales.

Based originally out of Los Angeles, Masters bought a ranch near Grants Pass, Oregon, in 1979--and urged his followers to move there. Along with connections to survivalists, conspiracy theories, and far-right political ideas, Masters acted as a form of messianic cult leader.

He performed exorcisms, taught that women are subordinate to men, and that all problems in a family are the fault of the mother. Thus, Marissa grew up in a controlling environment combined with a strong message behind it...and somehow, she survived and is doing well today.

Connect with Marissa on her "Breaking the Cycle" Substack.

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In this special bonus episode, I caught up with returning guest, Dr Sheri Pallas, as we discussed her brand-new book that just dropped on the 2nd of May, 2024. It's titled We Have Ruined God: My Journey Out of Religion and Into Unconditional Love, and from the conversation we had, it sounds like a fascinating and intriguing book.

Why should people contemplate leaving religion, and their harmful dogmas and teachings, behind? Sheri takes a look at this issue and concludes that it is largely humanity that has "ruined God," in effect. But which God, exactly? The God of the Bible, or the deity (or deities) represented by any number of other religious belief systems?

Beyond that, we talk about what "unconditional love" actually looks like, in practice, and why that is a far superior life philosophy than toxic religious doctrines.

Buy Sheri's book on Amazon at this link--and if you do buy it, please leave a review!

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This week's guest is Stephanie McCown, author of Razed Evangelical: Losing My Faith But Finding Myself. 

Stephanie is an unbelievable survivor--not only has she come out of a very toxic experience within evangelical Christianity, she is a cancer and addiction survivor also. But she had to navigate all of those experiences without God...and in the process, lost her faith--but found herself.

Also huge thanks go to Daniel Moore, who provided the song for the outro that he wrote and performed himself. Enjoy "On High" at the end of the show!

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This week's episode features returning guest, Canadian therapist Janice Selbie! Fresh off a conference in San Fransisco, CA., led by Dr Marlene Winell, Janice returned home full of ideas for discussion.

Fortunately, the guest I'd had lined up had to cancel--so Janice gracefully stepped up at the last minute as a replacement! And we had a phenomenal discussion about sex, and specifically how religion can seriously mess up people when it comes to this subject.

Join myself and Janice for this helpful and frank discussion on the topic of...sex!

In this special follow-up bonus episode to the one I recently did on "The Psychology of Conversion," I move further into developing psychiatrist Dr Robert Jay Lifton's model of cult formation.

Lifton demonstrates how, in 8 different ways and methods, cults and cult leaders operate to control and manipulate their followers. This is a fascinating study for me, and has  proven to be very helpful for others who have come out of cults or groups with undue influence.

Beyond exploring his 8 characteristics of cults, I also delve a bit into the markers of cult leaders and how it is they tend to operate. Further, I relate much of it to evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity, which is my own background.

In this conversation with returning guest Dr Terri Daniel, co-host of the "Ask Dr Death" podcast, we get into the subjects of not only the psychology of religion in general, but we also discuss how religion can affect people's mental health.

This is a subject I've long been fascinated by, as a cult survivor as well as an ex-evangelical. How much did your religious background affect you, both in the past and perhaps even currently? Dr Terri and I discuss this, and give real-world examples of how it might affect people in terms of their mental health, relationships, and more.

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This week's episode takes an in-depth look at the tragic murder/suicide that took place in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978. Cult leader Jim Jones was responsible for not only controlling and manipulating his numerous dedicated followers, in the end, he forced nearly 1000 of them to commit suicide or be murdered.

In the wake of this tragedy that occurred decades ago, Annie Dawid's book--a work of historical fiction--takes a fresh look at the lives of the followers of Jones. Not much is said about them, yet they were the backbone of the movement that on certain levels did accomplish many good things for a number of people.

Beyond discussing her book, we also take a look at Jones's story, tracing the early start of The People's Temple in Indiana, looking at its moves to California and ultimately Guyana. That it ended in such a shocking way still has enduring lessons for us today, especially in the explosion of cults and cult leaders since the tragedy at Jonestown all those years ago.

Find Annie's book on Amazon here:

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This week's guest is former evangelical pastor, and yet still remains a person of faith--Bill Prickett. Bill is currently the co-host of the Recovering From Religion podcast, and is speaking out about his time as a pastor--and survivor of evangelical "conversion therapy."

In conservative evangelical circles, coming out as gay is one of the most difficult journeys to navigate. They can't admit that you were born that way, or made that way by God--as in most evangelical's views, homosexuality is one of the worst sins people can engage in.

So in their view--God has a vested interest in making you straight again...and not only was Bill a victim of this system, as a pastor he promoted it for years. Find out more in this amazing interview!

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What's it like to grow up in a strict Christian, fundamentalist home?

The effects of growing up being "sheltered from the evil world" can linger with people, long after they've grown up, left home, and are raising families of their own. Sometimes they never do get out, and are still within "the system." 

My sister Valerie Cunningham and I got together and recorded this episode sharing our stories of growing up, and surviving, a fundamentalist Christian upbringing. 

Valerie also shares her heartbreaking story of becoming pregnant at just 17, giving up her child for adoption, and dealing with the fallout of the many decisions that were made for her at the time.

If any of these issues relates to you, or describe your own journey, then you are not going to want to miss this podcast episode!

The inaugural episode of MindShift podcast for 2020 features returning guest, Dr  André Gagné of Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. As an expert on this vast and frankly confusing field of dominion theology, and its many streams, Professor Gagné  is the perfect guest to continue the conversation I started with him on our episode last year.

The evangelical support for Donald Trump should be an area of concern for anyone who values their liberties. And not only are there a great deal of conservative evangelicals pushing their agenda, increasingly we are discovering prominent dominion theologians among their ranks.

Dr  Gagné and I discuss this, along with many other facets of this movement that is daily growing in influence not just in America, but indeed the world.

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The Open Letter Response to Christianity Today my article on Medium

I'm excited to announce that my new book, Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work is now available as of today!!

The book is available as a paperback, Kindle EBook, and Audible Virtual Voice versions now.

In this special episode, I'm reading the Preface chapter to the book, which is called "The Terror of an Empty House." I hope that not only do you enjoy this chapter, but that it prompts you to go out and buy the book.

After you've read it, please leave a review on Amazon, which greatly helps with the book's rankings--and share the book with anyone who you think will resonate with its message.

Here's the link on Amazon to Not So Shiny Not So Happy People.

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Timed to coincide with a workshop entitled "Reclaiming Sexuality from Religion" that my guest, Andrew Jasko, is doing in Oakland, CA on the 14th of August, this episode takes a deep dive into religion and its effects.

Religion is ultimately disempowering, claims Andrew, because you are taking the word of another person--an authority figure--not only to diagnose your spiritual problems, but also to provide the solution.

This dynamic leads to all sorts of abuses: spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, and in terms of sexuality. Join us as we discuss all of this and more in this fantastic episode!

What standard to you use to measure success?

In our money- and achievement-driven Western world, where success is measured in very quantifiable ways by our current society, this becomes a very important issue. 

You could, for example, be considered a huge success if you're wealthy, have a large house, several (expensive) cars in the driveway, or have a high-powered job moving fast up the corporate ladder.

On the other hand, you could be considered a total failure—that is, if you're being judged by certain current cultural standards.

Shawn Manley and I revisit this point in more detail in the second half of our conversation, and relate the metrics for success into the realm of the church also. 

Don't miss this conversation!

Having just been on Chris's great show, the Sensibly Speaking Podcast, it was time to return the favor and have him back on MindShift!

As an ex-Scientologist who's been out of the cult for over 10 years, and having run his show for the last 7 or 8 years exposing the inner workings of the cult, Chris is uniquely placed to provide insights into the group.

Not only do we break down the early history of the Church of Scientology and its founder, L Ron Hubbard, we delve into the psychology and tactics used by Scientology to control and coerce its adherents.

Even if you've never had anything to do with Scientology, you'll still benefit from this discussion if you're recovering from religion. Join us on the 23rd of April as Chris returns for our next MindShift Zoom call by supporting the show on Patreon--the link is below.

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This week's episode features a conversation with Jennifer Cohn, an investigative journalist who primarily writes for the Bucks County Beacon.

Through her work investigating issues such as election integrity in the runup to the 2016 election, Jennifer became aware of the NAR--the New Apostolic Reformation--and the key players who've been pushing Trump's "Big Lie" following the 2020 election.

In their quest to take dominion, these so-called "apostles and prophets" are pushing the Lie--but what's their motivation? Jennifer and I touch on this as well as numerous other related topics, key leaders, and influencers within this movement that is currently threatening American democracy in its aim to achieve dominion.

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How did the transatlantic slave trade and the resulting cultural violence affect Africans? Add to this the introduction of "white Christianity" into the mix and what results helps to explain much of the current situation within many African-American churches today.

This week's episode features a fascinating conversation with Valerie Wade: author, historian, and "cultural Christian." Valerie shares a particular fascination not just with history, but specifically focuses upon the treatment of African-American women in black churches currently.

Even though African-American women make up a large majority of black churches in terms of attendance and finance, they have historically not been allowed to have leadership roles, or to able to preach. Valerie offers up some fascinating historical and cultural insights on this issue.

I'm super happy to be reconnecting with my good friend Dave Warnock of "Dying Out Loud"--it's been at least 3+ years since we last talked last, maybe more.

In the meantime, Dave has come out with a brand-new book called Childish Things: A Memoir. I listened to it on Audible, which I'd highly recommend as Dave himself reads the text. This makes his memoirs even more poignant, especially if you grew up in evangelicalism in the 1970s-1990s--the "Jesus Movement" and all that went with it.

Dave and I discuss his time as a Christian, including his stint as a pastor of several churches; how he ended up deconstructing, becoming an atheist, and dealing with a terminal illness. I hope you not only enjoy this conversation, but also get a lot out of it too.

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This week's episode features a fascinating conversation with Dara Molloy, former Catholic priest from Dublin, Ireland.

Now situated on the Aran Islands off the west Coast of Ireland, Dara ended up walking away from the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church and embarking on a journey to discover--or perhaps rediscover--Celtic spirituality millennia before it was overshadowed by the Catholic Church. 

Now identifying as a druid, Celtic priest and monk, Dara wants to discover: is there still a sense of mystery and spirituality to be recovered out on the remote Aran Islands? His journey is a fascinating one--and I'm sure you'll agree that his experiences are certainly unique!

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"You can't be a Christian...and crazy!" says Steve Austin of the CXMH podcast and the iamsteveaustin.net website. He's my guest on this latest episode of the MindShift podcast series.

There is unfortunately a stigma attached to mental health and the church. Throw in some questionable--or downright bad theology--like "the magic Jesus pill" (say a prayer and you're all better), and you've got a toxic mix that is destined for causing a lot of damage.

Steve and I have a great discussion about these issues and more. Don't miss this episode, where he shares his near-successful suicide attempt, his recovery and efforts to help others on the road to health, healing and wholeness.

This special bonus episode is a chat with Dr John Fea, professor of American history at Messiah College in Pennsylvania--and although he's an evangelical, he is a prominent voice who has been speaking out for years about what he terms the "court evangelicals" surrounding Donald Trump. 

Dr Fea is also the author of multiple books and articles, but I wanted to focus on two works: first, his 2011 book Was America Founded as a Christian Nation: A Historical Perspective, and his more recent work, Believe Me: The Evangelical Road to Donald Trump (2018).

Dr Fea and I dissect not only the myths of Christian nationalism, but discuss the role that dominion theology and power politics have shaped the Christian Right and evangelical support for Donald Trump.

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In the second half of my conversation with David Madison, we finish up talking about biblical inerrancy and move on to two tough problems facing Christianity: the problem of evil and the atonement.

Theologians and scholars alike--both within Judaism and Christianity--have struggled to explain the problem of evil. Theodicy--a defense of a supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing and all-benevolent God--has long been a mainstay of both religions.

David and I tackle this as well as discussing related issues with God requiring a human sacrifice so that human beings could go to heaven. Couldn't the God, who makes all the rules, just forgive everybody without requiring Jesus to die?

After publishing my article "Rapture Anxiety" on Medium several weeks ago, many who read it asked if I could do a special episode on not just the topic of the movie itself, but also critically assess its theology.

In this bonus episode, not only do I delve into the theological interpretation of its creator, I further get into various interpretative issues around biblical prophetic and apocalyptic literature--and the problems that poses for those who would portray those events in book or movie form.

If you were forced to watch these traumatic movies as a child, then this episode will help you to process through some of the trauma you may have experienced that, for many of us, lingers well into adulthood. 

What happens when you begin to "run out of road" on the spiritual path you're on? When the faith you were brought up to believe in no longer works for you? Listen in to find out what happened to Keith Rycroft, who transitioned from a fundamentalist upbringing and now is a Quaker....who doesn't believe in God?!

In Part 2 of my chat with Steve Stone Sr., the "Starbucks Pastor," we get into the motivations behind Steve's often provocative and (to some for sure), irritating Facebook posts.

Steve regularly posts strong statements about Christianity...religion...politics in America...the evangelical support for Donald Trump...and for the inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community within the Christian church.

To say that these posts are controversial, for a retired pastor of more than 20 years, would be an understatement. Just reading the responses Steve gets runs the gamut: from outraged fundamentalists to those who support him wholeheartedly.

Find out why he puts himself on the firing line in Part 2!

This week's guest is Daniel Phelps, who grew up in the World Revival Church, now located in Kansas City, MO.

A recent investigation by Fox News has shone some light on this church's disturbing cult-like practices and tactics. Off the back of that, Daniel shares his story of how he not only grew up in the church--which he  now describes as a cult--and how he finally got out. 

Can a church become a cult? Listen in to find out how this one did!

Click here to read the Fox News investigative report on the multiple abuses by WRC.

Visit the KC Cult Survivor Facebook Page.

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For the first time ever, my show has been hijacked!

My very good friend Tim Sledge, who is the editor and publisher of my new book, Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work interviewed me recently about my book.

Aside from me, there is nobody else on Earth who knows more about my book, as we have been working closely on it for about a year now. Tim is not only intimately connected with the book, as a former evangelical pastor and ex-Christian himself, Tim resonates a great deal with my story.

I hope you enjoy this interview--and please, if you do buy a copy of my book on Amazon, do me a huge favor and leave a review! That helps greatly with the Amazon rankings.

Link to Not So Shiny Not So Happy People on Amazon

If the link doesn't work, on Amazon type in "Not So Shiny Not So Happy People Clint Heacock" and it will quickly locate the book.

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A potentially disturbing trend threatens the church: Christians leaving organized churches, but not abandoning their faith in God. What is behind this trend? Tune into this Preacher's Forum podcast to find out.

Does a person have to believe a set of theological doctrines in order to belong to a church? Or is it more of a priority for someone to belong first, and worry about beliefs later? Most churches and leaders would say that belief comes before belonging.

And beyond that, what is the purpose of the church? Is it about attracting people into a building, or is about going out into the community? How do you "think strategically" and maximize your efforts, and those of your people, if you're a church leader or pastor?

In this second half of the conversation with Dr Ash Barker, we explore further the concept of "incarnational living in the neighbourhood." What does that mean, how do you go about it, and what does it look like?

Dr Ash Barker and I explore this in more detail, and he explains more of his philosophy of ministry and mission and incarnational living: "Discipleship is a by-product of the love we have for people."

For those of us who came out of fundamentalist Christianity, what happens when things go badly wrong in our lives? Do you have the temptation to pray, read the Bible, seek out a wise Christian counselor to discover answers for why this is happening to you?

Within evangelicalism, the problem of suffering is a huge issue. There always has to be "an answer" as to why God allows--or even causes--bad things to happen to us. There must be a reason!

My good friend Dean Krosecz and I break down this very topic after Dean shares about the traumatic experiences he's gone through in the last few years. Where was "God" in all of it? And can you create peace in the midst of suffering, alone without a supposedly benevolent being to lean on for support?

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We've got the first bonus episode of 2022!

I'm happy to welcome back returning guest, good friend Janice Selbie, to talk about the upcoming CORT2022--the Conference on Religious Trauma. We not only delve into which great presenters she has lined up for this important conference, we discuss the many and varied aspects of religious trauma. What is it, who is affected by it, and what can you do about it if you suffer from it?

Also listen in for an important code that will get you a discount to this event!

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As I've been connecting with more and more ex-cult members, I have been learning that even though each cult has very different ideology, the psychology of mind control, thought reform, manipulation, abuse and exploitation is virtually identical group to group.

Thus, whether you've come out of a dangerous cult group, or a fundamentalist Christian church--chances are, you'll have suffered a lot of religious trauma, identity suppression, and many other forms of abuse.

Helping you to recover from your experiences in such groups is the goal of people like this week's guest, former Scientologist Chris Shelton. Although we don't delve much into Scientology itself, we get into the practicalities of how groups control their followers--and how you can rebuild your sense of identity after leaving.

In this fourth bonus episode, I'm taking a slightly different direction away from the charismatic "apostles and prophets" who failed in their predictions of a Trump landslide.

This time, I'm looking at the issue of why voices on the Christian Right--who might possibly disavow their more charismatic brothers and sisters--are amplifying and promoting the same conspiracy theories Trump is touting?

Let's take a deep dive into this and look at what some are saying, and why it's a vert important subject to break down right now.

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After doing what we thought was the final episode of my Rock n' Roll Soul series of podcasts, my wife and I discovered that one more session was needed. In this show, we discuss our journey in moving to the United Kingdom 11 years ago, and what factors led us to the decision to walk away from the organized, mainstream church.

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This special bonus episode features a conversation with journalist and author Angela Denker, whose recent book Red State Christians: Understanding the Voters who Elected Donald Trump takes a much more personal look at Trump Christian voters in America.

Beyond being a journalist and author, Angela is also a Lutheran pastor--and after seeing the disruptive effect of the Trump vote in 2016 on her own church members, and watching it nationwide for the last 3+ years, she's concerned for the future of Christianity in light of the widespread evangelical Trump support. 

Thus her book seeks to understand what motivated many Trump-supporting Christians in America who often don't receive a lot of media coverage. While you may not entirely share her concern, perhaps her book will open up dialogue between Trump-supporting Christians and those who don't--which can only be a good thing, given the incredibly polarized state of America today.

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Taking a break from my "Rock n' Roll Soul" series, let's have a bit of a laugh, while at the same time pondering what it is that people experience when they decide to visit church for the first time. In his own words, find out what happens when Mr Smith Goes to Church.

Back in September I caught up with ex-missionary and author, Steve Slocum, for a great podcast interview about his upcoming book: Why Do They Hate Us? Making Peace with the Muslim World.

The title of his book is taken from a speech given by President George W. Bush mere weeks after 9/11--giving Bush's justification for "why they (Muslims?) hate us." Steve will explain not only what that speech meant both to Muslims and those in the West since then, but also offers up a way forward for understanding and peace to occur.

In a world fueled by hateful rhetoric, coming from political and religious leaders alike, this kind of conversation is sorely needed today.

This week's conversation is a fascinating one with American expat Dr David D'Andre, currently residing in Canada but who's lived in such places as Kiev and Brussels. Originally from the United States, David has a fascinating story of deconstruction of his former Christian beliefs from academic, theological and personal points of view combined.

David's story is a fascinating one--and one that you'll hopefully resonate with too. As a thoughtful person who takes an academic approach to the subject, David blends both the theoretical and the practical in his approach to the idea of deconverting from one's former religious belief system. 

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This is the final episode of my "Rock n' Roll Soul" podcast series. For this concluding episode, which is the story of my last 18 months in full-time church ministry, I bring in a special guest--my wife, Lisa, to share her point of view on the whole experience. 

In this conversation with journalist and author Sarah McCammon, we discuss her book that just came out in March, called The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church.

Not only does Sarah do a masterful job of explaining why so many "exvangelicals" have left the white evangelical church behind, she shares her own story of growing up evangelical, deconstructing, and ultimately walking away from her childhood faith.

Along the way, Sarah's work blends diligent research with authentic examples of why people like her, and so many others, have simply had enough--for whatever reason--and couldn't deal with the cognitive dissonance, the "tension points" in their belief system, or whatever it was that led them to make the difficult decision to abandon their cherished belief system.

Find Sarah's book here on Amazon!

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Are you a survivor of childhood sexual abuse? Were you sexually abused as a teenager, or even as an adult? Perhaps the abuse is even now ongoing and you feel powerless to stop it.

In the UK alone, according to a 2000 study by the NSPCC, one in 6 children will experience some form of sexual abuse by the age of 16. 8 out of 10 children abused know their abuser. In the USA, a person is sexually assaulted every 98 seconds.

Many abusers are family members, friends, or people in positions of trust; many are well-known and respected by the victims' family.

Jean Dobson courageously speaks out abuse her multiple experiences of sexual abuse, beginning from when she was a young girl and continuing through her early adult years.

Rather than being stigmatized by it, she has found healing, hope and restoration--but it certainly has not been an easy journey. She's now in a place where she can help other sexual abuse victims.

Don't miss this episode--this is a powerful and compelling story that needs to be experienced.

How do you understand your own identity? Is it from your accomplishments in life, and the the skills and abilities you have? And where do you gain a sense of value? Is that found in what you do--or who you are? Do you judge people on their appearance and belief systems? Or can you learn to "see beyond the veil of humanity?"

In this and the next episode of my podcast series "British Accents," I'm bringing you the first half of a great conversation I had recently with a good friend: Ryan Warren. The founder of the DadsApp resource for dads who want to be better fathers to their children, Ryan is a person who is above all else a servant who not only cares deeply for people, he seeks to serve them in a wide variety of ways.

These are some of the topics we get into in this first half. Be sure and tune in next Friday for Part 2, where we discuss things like Ryan's experiences of church, God, and spirituality.

In the second half of my conversation with Mike Nimz of the Anabaptist Network UK, Mike shares his difficult experience as the pastor of a Mennonite church in Canada.

If you're a pastor or church leader, then you need to listen in to his story! This is helpful because now, more than 3 years after burning out in ministry, Mike is able to reflect critically on his experiences.

We also talk about preaching, Pauline theology, mission, and attending the Pride Parade in Birmingham from a perspective of theological reflection. Don't miss this episode!

This final episode of 2020 features an eye-opening and informative interview with Seven, a rapper and former megachurch pastoral staff member from Jacksonville, Florida.

Seven and his wife experienced not just church hurt during their time as part of the congregation, the situation became much worse as he transitioned into a position on the church staff. Turns out that the only reason the church wanted him on staff was for him to be the "face of diversity" at what was actually an organization with deep and systemic racism at its core. How can this all be reconciled with both a supposedly loving God, and a loving church?

As a result of his experiences, Seven walked away from it all...and is now speaking out. 

Support Seven! Order "Sunday Mourning" at WinLoseorMaybe 

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After last week's conversation with Jared Yates Sexton, that spurred me to do some more investigation into this issue of the "noble lie"--what is it, and how exactly does it relate to the official American narrative of its history?

Once we understand that critical concept--that goes all the way back to the ancient Greek philosopher Plato in the 3rd century BCE--it becomes a helpful paradigm or model through which to interpret not just American history, but many other nations also.

Join me on this journey of discovery and please, let me know your thoughts!

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In this special bonus episode, which I've long been promising is indeed coming, I was able to interview therapist Rachel Bernstein of the IndoctriNation Podcast.

This is actually Part 2 of two episodes we did--for the first half of the chat, you'll have to head over to the IndoctriNation podcast to catch Part 1. There, we discussed my backstory in evangelicalism, my deconstruction, and the journey to rebuild since leaving Christianity behind.

In this episode, we focus specifically on the important question: how does religion affect people's mental health? What resources are available for those of us who have left it behind, and now need to reconstruct our lives from the ground up?

I hope you will find this conversation with Rachel both enlightening and educational.

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Thanks to my good friend Janice Selbie, she introduced me to David Morris, who used to be an employee of some of the biggest Christian publishing houses. 

David has since walked away from the faith and his career--at least as a Christian publisher, that is. He's now publishing books largely written by, and for, ex-evangelicals, in some way to make up for his past life's accomplishments as an evangelical working within the machine that is Christian publishing.

This is a wide-ranging and fascinating conversation covering a lot of topics--I hope you enjoy! And don't forget, David will be our guest for the October MindShift Zoom call coming up on the 29th, so you'll have a chance to meet and chat with him.

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Lake Drive Books

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Several months ago, Andrew was a guest on MindShift podcast and provided a lot of very helpful analysis regarding much of what causes religious trauma--particularly in evangelical Christianity.

In this episode, Andrew and I get into the specifics of what emotional health looks like, particularly for the person who has de-converted from religion. Andrew not only explores spirituality as a path for healing from religious trauma, he also provides a wide range of options for exploration.

In this episode, I start planning my move out of full-time ministry and out of the church. I pitch my proposal for an exit strategy, but will it work? Tune in to hear Part 9 of my story of when I was in full-time church ministry.

Did Jesus of Nazareth actually exist?

Believe it or not, this is not the first time this question has been posed by theologians and biblical scholars. 

Dating to the 18th and 19th centuries, scholars responding to biblical higher criticism sought to find the "real Jesus of history"--not the Jesus of the Gospels, whom they alleged had been covered up by layers of traditions.

But today, mythicist and atheist David Fitzgerald questions whether Jesus even lived at all, or if he was indeed a construct of literary and theological notions. Author of Nailed: 10 Christian Myths that show Jesus Never Existed at All and Jesus: Mything in Action, David searches both the biblical and historical records to see if Jesus ever walked the earth.

Join me for the first half of this challenging and thought-provoking discussion!

In Part 2 of my conversation with Canadian Sam Morse from the Out of Eden podcast, we delve further into the question of how (or indeed, why) a person might be able to retain various aspects of his or her Christianity--post-deconstruction.

This involves, of necessity, a re-examination of one's views on both God and the Bible--how you approach the text (hermeneutics, or lens through which we read Scripture) will of necessity change your views of God and Jesus.

This strikes at the very heart of the issue: change your views on God and the Bible, and your former Christian faith (if you have any left) will never be the same again.

This episode features author and activist Ryan Stollar, who grew up in the Christian homeschooling bubble, but has since become a staunch advocate for those who unfortunately suffered a great many abuses within that system.

A former editor and author at the now-archived Homeschoolers Anonymous blog for several years, Ryan has since branched out and is currently doing a lot of writing--including working on two books at the moment. He is still very active within the former homeschooling community, and is very active on social media with support groups for survivors.

This episode reveals much about the backstory of how Christian homeschooling not only started, but what some of the major leaders within the movement are up to currently--including expanding their vision worldwide.

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This extremely helpful episode features a conversation with returning guest Andrew Jasko, a Princeton-seminary trained former minister who walked away from the faith years ago and now as a therapist, is devoting his life to helping people heal from religious trauma syndrome (RTS).

Andrew's blog is helpfully titled "Life After Dogma," and that is exactly what we focus on in this episode--what is trauma, generally  speaking? And then, what exactly is religious trauma, and how can you begin to cope with it? How does religious dogma affect us in terms of trauma, and is there life after we leave it behind?

One aspect of healing is to discover spirituality--which is something that doesn't necessarily appeal to all people who come out of cults or fundamentalist religions. But in this episode, regardless of your beliefs about it, you'll find help and resources in dealing with your own RTS.

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In this special edition of MindShift podcast, I talk to filmmaker Christopher Maloney about his project entitled "In God We Trump."

What are the implications for the evangelical church going forward, based upon the fact that 81% of (largely white) evangelical Christians not only voted to elect Trump in 2016, but many continue to support him and many of his policies?

Statistics have shown that thousands have left evangelical churches over the issue; and beyond that, many have given up their Christian faith also, citing this "deal with the devil" as the last straw.

Listen in as Chris and I discuss the film, the reasons so many voted Trump, and what the future holds for evangelicalism in America--and the world.

This week's guest is my friend Mike Phillips, currently a therapist in California who does a lot of work in the area of religious trauma syndrome--a subject I am not only very familiar with as a sufferer of RTS myself, but I've devoted a lot of time to it also.

Like me, Mike is an ex-pastor who tells an incredible tale of not only being in church ministry for decades, but also how he transitioned out of both pastoral ministry and Christianity too. In his journey to become a therapist, he developed a speciality of supporting and representing a great number of church abuse victims also.

If you suffer from RTS or know someone who does, then this episode will not only be of great benefit to you, Mike also provides resources and options for its treatment as well.

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Welcome to the first episode of The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast for 2025!

This inaugural episode features a catch-up conversation with two old friends, Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. They are the authors of the classic 1978 work on cults and mind control entitled Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change.

Their research into cult psychology and tactics led them, in the late 1970s and early 80s, to investigate what was then the nascent Christian Right's involvement in American politics. They also noticed how much evangelicalism and fundamentalist Christianity had in common with the world of the cults.

Currently they've released an update to their original 1982 book Holy Terror: The Fundamentalist War on America's Freedoms in Religion, Politics, and Our Private Lives. The "classic edition," which is now available, gives the reader new perspectives on the evangelical involvement in the Trump era.

Find the new version of Holy Terror now available on Amazon!

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In this episode of MindShift podcast, I catch up with Keith Davis, formerly of the Pilgrims & Prodigals podcast. Last year we had a great chat with ended up on their show, and since then a lot has changed--both for Keith and myself.

Since I've been studying the psychological aspects of how cults (and some evangelical churches too) control, manipulate and coerce their followers, I wanted to see if Keith's experiences in evangelicalism matched up to the classic markers of cults as laid out by psychologist Robert Lifton in his 1981 article, "Cult Formation."

In our exploration of the cult-like aspects of evangelicalism, Keith and I discuss theology and coercion--why the dogmas of evangelicalism, along with the mind control aspects, have affected us psychologically and in other ways--and how we're recovering from it all.

This special bonus episode features returning guest, sociologist and cult expert, Dr Janja Lalich.

I reached out to her once again to talk about the NXIVM cult and how specifically it worked from a cult psychology point of view. As someone who not only has been in a cult herself, but has also researched and written a tremendous amount of material about cults, Dr Lalich is an invaluable resource. In addition, she was also heavily involved in the trial and has been filmed for at least 2 documentaries about NXIVM.

I think that not only will you find this episode fascinating about Raniere and NXIVM itself, as we describe cult psychology in general it will prove to be a helpful resource in terms of your own reconstruction--if you come out of controlling religions or groups with undue influence.

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Part 1 of my conversation with Dr Josie McSkimming from Sydney, Australia, focuses on her own backstory in evangelicalism, and how she escaped the system.

Now a clinical social worker who counsels those who have left religion behind, she has since authored the book "Leaving Christian Fundamentalism and the Reconstruction of Identity."

Find out more in this fascinating conversation with an ex-fundamentalist from Down Under!

Exactly how important is the culture of an organization? What role does leadership play in shaping and building the culture? How does culture fit into mission, vision and values?

If you're involved in leadership on any level--be it a business, a church or any other organization--then this episode is for you. Whether you're a leader of a team, or a member of a leadership team, then join me for the first half of two episodes I'm doing on exploring the concept of "The 5 Dysfunctions of a Team."

Based on the book of the same name, written by leadership guru Patrick Lencioni, I'll unpack and explore some of the major dysfunctions that affect leadership teams, and ultimately the organization itself. 

In next week's episode, I'll turn the negatives into positives, and explore "The 5 Functions of a Team." Don't miss this incredibly helpful series!

Are you prepared to deconstruct your faith, beliefs and presuppositions? 

If so, then you won't want to miss this episode, as I talk with Dr Hector Avalos, professor of Religious Studies at Iowa State University. Dr Avalos is a "New Atheist"--one who isn't trying to disprove the existence of God, but rather seeks to warn people about the dangers inherent within religion--and religionism.

In this first episode, Dr Avalos discusses what it means to be a New Atheist, biblical literacy and society at large, and other topics that will challenge some of the things you think you believe and know about God and the Bible.

This special bonus episode features returning guest, Dr Warren Throckmorton. Though he identifies as a Christian himself, Dr Throckmorton has long been an outspoken activist and blogger for what he clearly sees as abuses within evangelicalism.

In the current Christianity Today podcast series on the collapse of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, and Mark Driscoll's role in it, his name comes up--as he was one of the early voices to speak out against the problems inherent within Mars Hill.

Not only do we discuss the Mars Hill saga, and its ultimate implosion, we also delve into the concept that Driscoll, in many ways, fits a classic ego-driven cult leader--and his current church in Scottsdale, AZ, features even more disturbing elements of cult psychology and high-control groups.

For more information you can visit Warren's blog at this link. 

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In this week's episode, I finally had a chance to edit this show and get it out there--apologies to Andrew for taking so long!

Andrew is on the vanguard of an exciting new field of research and experimentation: using psychedelics to treat such issues as PTSD, Religious Trauma Syndrome, and many more. Listen in as Andrew expands our consciousness as to the incredible possibilities that this fascinating work represents.

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This episode will be of great value to anyone who grew up in a fundamentalist or evangelical Bible cult background, like this week's guest--life coach Rebekah Drumsta.

Beyond talking about her incredible life's journey out of fundamentalism, and then rebuilding, we get into Rebekah's amazing work as a life coach, helping people recover from the oftentimes harmful, traumatic and toxic effects of fundamentalist or high-control religious groups.

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In this final episode of MindShift for 2017, Ray Gilford and I finish our discussion we began last week on the subject of biblical inerrancy--the fundamentalist belief that "the Bible is 100% error-free"--inerrant.

In Part 2, Ray opens up about his own personal journey away from church. The idea of biblical absolutism--the teaching that the Bible is all that is necessary for faith and practice--permeates many a conservative evangelical church today. This, in part, has led Ray away from the mainstream church, and on a journey of deconstructing his own faith and belief systems.

Perhaps this describes your own personal journey away from mainstream churches. If so, then you won't want to miss Part 2!

MindShift will return in January 2018 so stay tuned for some outstanding interviews and conversations on a wide variety of topics related to God, the church, and spirituality.

Join me on the journey of deconstruction and discovery!

For this final podcast of 2024, I recently connected with Lauryn Axelrod--she's an interfaith/interspiritual minister, chaplain, spiritual director, and teacher out of Vermont.

This is an especially poignant interview, as I've talked to several people this year about concepts of spirituality. Lauryn's suggestion that incorporating "Ten Words" into your life, as guiding principles or values, can indeed make the world a better place. This is all the more relevant now that America is so deeply divided and polarized, both politically and religiously.

The question is: what can all the major religious worldviews and traditions teach us about spirituality? Dogma and doctrines aside, are there commonalities behind them all from which we can gain insights and understanding? And above all--is it indeed possible to make the world a better place by embracing interspirituality?

Find out more about Lauryn on her site https://www.laurynaxelrod.com/

Get a copy of Lauryn's Book Ten Words on Amazon!

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This week's guest features Paul Kivel, author of Living in the Shadow of the Cross: Understanding and Resisting the Power and Privilege of Christian Hegemony.

Since the fateful decision by Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century CE to make Christianity the official state religion of Rome, Christianity has enjoyed unprecedented power, cultural and religious dominance--the very definition of "hegemony."

And this is true not just in the West, where it's been most powerful, but indeed worldwide, as Christianity provided the ideology and force to go along with much of the efforts to colonize the world in the 18th-19th centuries. It's still seen today worldwide--politically, socially, culturally, religiously, and in many other ways.

Paul and I will give you the tools not only to understand what Christian hegemony is, and the dangers it poses--we'll also discuss how you and I can successfully resist it.

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It's finally arrived!

This week's long-overdue discussion is here, featuring a super informative and helpful conversation with Tim Mills, host of "The Harmonic Atheist" podcast and YouTube channel.

As a faithful Christian virtually all of his life, Tim has an unbelievable testimony--and this is not just about how dedicated he was both to God and the church. It also includes his tale of what led to his deconstruction, leaving the faith and becoming an atheist, and now as one who speaks out against the damage Christianity can often do.

But beyond merely dismantling aspects of the Christian faith, Tim also offers up incredibly helpful insights to help you recover from the harmful effects of religion and begin to recover your authentic self.

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Did Jesus ever do, or say, anything wrong? This is the major question posed by Dr Hector Avalos in his book, The Bad Jesus: The Ethics of New Testament Ethics, and this forms the basis of the discussion in Part 2 of this episode.

Perhaps the real question is this: can such a question even be raised without offending large swathes of Christians worldwide? If Jesus was supra-human (both human and divine), as most Christians hold, then he lived a sinless life--and should be viewed as the paragon of virtue and as a substantive base for ethical behavior.

If, however, he was human, then surely he must have had flaws--as do we all. Can you question this? Don't miss this episode, as Dr Avalos and I explore these questions and more.

This week's episode features an alarming conversation with returning guest Katherine Stewart, author of The Power Worshipers and The Good News Club, as well as numerous articles in a variety of online sources.

In this chat, we discussed a January 2022 article Katherine wrote in The New Republic in which she not only identified some of the funding behind several Christian Right organizations in America, but also a more alarming trend: the support for Trump's "Big Lie" by these same outfits. 

Not only are they pushing it, they are weaponizing this conspiracy theory to motivate both pastors and evangelicals alike to get out and vote in 2022 and 2024 in an effort to "reclaim America for God"--as in the allegedly Christian nation that America both was, and should be again.

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Today's episode features a discussion with Richard Jacobson, author of Unchurching: Christianity Without Churchianity." 

Have you left the church behind? Perhaps you have, but still seek a sense of community. But if you've abandoned the "institutional church," yet still consider yourself a Christian who yearns for an authentic experience of church, where do you turn?

Listen in as Richard offers a biblical and theological deconstruction of the institutional church, and lays out his vision of what he believes the church should be all about.

In Part 2 of my conversation with ex-evangelical Brian Staples, we'll dive further into our views of God, experiences of fundamentalist Christianity, and talk about the impact evangelicalism is having on American politics today.

Brian will also offer up advice for those who have left the church behind, but aren't sure where to go next...or maybe those who are still within the church, but are questioning everything. 

Where do you go from there? Listen in to find out!

In this fantastic bonus episode, returning guests Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman--authors of the classics Snapping and Holy Terror--take us on a trip back in time...to the origins of the Christian Right, with a close assessment of the various strategies that were used to sway and influence millions of impressionable evangelicals to get involved in politics.

What's perhaps not so surprising? The playbook that many of the architects of the Christian Right constructed decades ago is still in operation. The current evangelical Trump base, for example, is an extension of the work that these key players installed decades ago.

We also look at the impact these strategies had on the individual evangelical. We'll explore the story of Diane, "the first ex-evangelical," that Flo and Jim encountered in their travels across America researching this movement.

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Ex-Evangelical Experience Survey 2021 Link

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This special bonus episode features journalist Sarah Posner, as we discuss her latest book Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship at the Altar of Donald Trump.

So why exactly do they worship at the Trump altar? Turns out that the answer to that question is more complex than it may seem...because as Sarah lays out in the book, it's not just white evangelicals--it's also the alt-right that forms Trump's loyal base.

Join us for this discussion of Unholy as we unpack the layers!

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While on a recent trip to Seattle, Washington, I met up with a former classmate of mine, and good friend, Jeff Judd. We went to a conservative evangelical Christian high school back in the 1980s, and together, Jeff and I reminisce about the nutty, zany, and just downright insane aspects of...growing up evangelical.

You literally could not make this shit up. Come along and laugh with us in this first episode!

This week's episode features a great conversation with Bethany Carter, who became an atheist after confronting a lot of issues around the subject of...spanking her children?

Find out how this particular issue started Bethany off on the road of deconstruction of her former evangelical beliefs, including questioning God, the Bible and its many issues, and why she no longer counts herself as a believer.

This week's conversation is with self-professed liberal Christian and writer for Salon, Nate Manderson.

Nate and I had a great chat about his backstory, how he came to walk away from fundamentalist Christianity, and now how his writing is taking on the mainstream evangelical church in America today. Having sold most of its soul to Trumpism, Christian nationalism and a dominionist dream, what's next? Is there any hope for the church, going forward?

In his role as "pastor to the public," Nate uses his platform to write incisive critiques of what evangelicalism has become today. I hope you enjoy this chat and hopefully we'll see Nate again on an upcoming MindShift Zoom call!

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Kurt Andersen is a returning guest, this time to talk about his sequel to Fantasyland, which is his excellent and thought-provoking work, Evil Geniuses: The Unmaking of America--A Recent History.

How exactly does it function as a sequel to Fantasyland? In this followup book, Kurt reveals that the vast wealth and income inequality in America was not by accident, but by design--the work of the "evil geniuses" he identifies in the book. And not only did the evil geniuses succeed, the "fantasy-industrial complex" he identified in Fantasyland is hard at work, providing a distraction for all the poor workers who have been screwed out of what should have been rightfully theirs.

For more information on Kurt, his writings and podcasts, check out his website. 

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What might Martin Luther's "theology of the cross" have to say to a modern-day post-evangelical Christian?

This is even more the case when that theology has been filtered through radical theology and the work of Deitrich Boenhoffer.

In Part 2 of our conversation, Dutch theologian Josh deKeyzer and I discuss how he came to this position--although sometimes he admits he can be an "angry theist" too.

Not all of the kinks have been ironed out, but he does retain a view of God--albeit a radically different version than his former fundamentalist views of God!

This week's episode features Paul James Caiden, host of the Mind's Eye Podcast. I was a recent guest on his show and now I'm returning the favor and having him on the show--from Mind's Eye to MindShift!

In this chat we cover not only Paul's story of his faith deconstruction, we focus on the issues surrounding the various traumas that accompany the decision to walk away from one's former faith. In addition, we finish the chat by discussing the dark side of dominion theology, Trumpism and look ahead in terms of what's in store for the American evangelical movement today.

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We're nearly finished with our deep dive into controversial pastor--cult leader?--Doug Wilson out of Moscow, Idaho. This week's episode features an absolutely fascinating conversation with his former professor at the University of Idaho, Dr Nick Gier.

Their relationship goes back to the late 1970s when Dr Gier was a professor of philosophy and Wilson was a young student, keen to evangelize, debate, and spread his version of the Christian faith. Over the decades they've had numerous run-ins, and Dr Gier has written extensively about Wilson and the various scandals and controversies he's been involved in.

The next episode concludes our deep dive into Wilson--stay tuned for the final chapter!

Dr Nick Gier's Website

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In this special election special bonus episode, I reached out to returning guest Matthew D Taylor, who has just come out with a brand-new book called The Violent Take it by Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy. 

For those who are still undecided about their vote in the upcoming election, this is a must-listen. Given the fact that so much of the Trump MAGA support is generated by not just Christian nationalists, but extremists who are part of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), this is a major concern going forward.

Matthew puts all the pieces together in this hugely informative discussion, telling the story of exactly how these so-called "apostles and prophets" coalesced together and found themselves part of Trump's inner circle of spiritual advisers during his presidency. Now, they are mobilizing tens of thousands of angry evangelicals not only to vote for Trump, but to engage in political violence should he lose the election. The threat to American democracy is clear, and these people have had four years to prepare themselves for whatever happens following this hugely important election.

Find The Violent Take it by Force here on Amazon!

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