The Bruchim Podcast (Bruchim)

Welcome to The Bruchim Podcast! The only podcast in the world dedicated to Jews who think differently about circumcision.

Welcome to the Bruchim Podcast! For our first episode, host Eli Ungar-Sargon is joined by Max Buckler, Bruchim’s Director of Strategic Initiatives and a bioethics researcher. They discuss: Is it a contradiction for a Jew to be opposed to circumcision? And what's the basis of Jewish identity? They also talk about the need for an organization like Bruchim, why we don’t accept the don’t-ask-don’t-tell status quo about circumcision, and how Max became interested in the subject of circumcision.

Show Notes:

Bruchim’s website:

www.bruchim.online

Harold Kushner “When Bad Things Happen to Good People”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/05/09/when-bad-things-happen-good-people-harold-kushner/

Harold Kushner vs. Christopher Hitchens debate from 2009:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx_ov2NiNo4

Episode Sponsors:

This episode was made possible by a generous donation from Darren Olsen

In this episode, Gary Shteyngart joins Eli to talk about growing up as an immigrant and his memories of being circumcised at the age of seven. He talks about "the very painful complications from his circumcision which have haunted him as an adult." Gary talks about the decision to tell his story to the New Yorker, the reception of his article, and his feelings about the practice of circumcision in general.

Show Notes:

Gary Shteyngart’s article in the New Yorker:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/10/11/a-botched-circumcision-and-its-aftermath

Gary Shteyngart on the Evolve podcast:

https://evolve.fireside.fm/31

In this episode, Eli is joined by Bruchim’s President, Lisa Braver Moss. Lisa discusses her regret after circumcising her two boys, and how this catalyzed a lifetime of activism about Jewish circumcision. She also reflects on writing a novel about circumcision and a book of ceremonies for alternative baby welcoming ceremonies, also called brit shalom. Plus, Eli and Lisa think together about what it’s like to be a Jew in the Genital Autonomy Movement, and how to be an effective activist on sensitive topics.

Show Notes:

Lisa’s novel The Measure of His Grief:

https://a.co/d/88Ietmm

Celebrating Brit Shalom by Lisa Braver Moss and Rebecca Wald:

https://a.co/d/3ayHUCd

Eli’s review of Celebrating Brit Shalom in Tikkun Magazine:

https://www.tikkun.org/kickstarter-judaism-a-book-review-of-celebrating-brit-shalom/

In this episode, Eli is joined by Bruchim’s Director of Education Max DuBoff and Jewish journalist Mark Oppenheimer. This episode was recorded two days after Hamas’s October 7th attack  against Israel so the conversation starts with reactions to the news. The discussion then moves to the role of antisemitism in Jewish-American identity, the importance or lack thereof of denominations, and the right of a community to set its own identity boundaries. Mark shares his process for deciding to circumcise his son and talks about his impressions of Jews who have chosen to forgo circumcision.

Show Notes:

Mark’s book Squirrel Hill:

https://a.co/d/9mUk3cs

Pew Research Center's 2013 and 2020 reports on Jewish Americans:

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/jewish-americans-in-2020

Medicalization and the Mainstreaming of Circumcision in Mid-twentieth-century
America by Elizabeth Reis

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/840015/pdf

In this episode, Eli is joined by Bruchim’s Executive Director Rebecca Wald. Rebecca talks about the decision not to circumcise her son and the consequences of that decision. Eli and Rebecca then discuss Rebecca's website Beyond the Bris and how it became one of the premier Jewish websites on the subject of circumcision. They also talk about Rebecca’s book Celebrating Brit Shalom and the founding of Bruchim. Here they clarify the unique position that Bruchim occupies in the world and talk about some of the unique challenges that come our way. Plus, Eli shares the dramatic story that led him to thinking critically about circumcision.

Show Notes:

Bruchim’s website:

bruchim.online

Beyond the Bris:

https://www.beyondthebris.com

Celebrating Brit Shalom:

https://a.co/d/3ayHUCd

Eli’s Debate with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach:

https://youtu.be/-R852-AViBY?si=v0p6BW6dz4dqszPY

Are Jewish law and ethics in conflict? Eli is joined by Max DuBoff, Bruchim's Director of Education, to explore this question. They begin by defining their terms and explaining what they mean by ethics and what they mean by halakha, Jewish law. Max then proposes four possible positions that one might take regarding the relationship between the two, based on two questions: 1) Can ethics and Jewish law conflict?; and 2) If they can, what should we do about it? Max and Eli each explain which position appeals most to them, and why. Finally, they talk about whether circumcision can be considered an example of a conflict between Ethics and Jewish law.

Show Notes:

Conservative Halacha and LGBT Issues:

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/conservative-halakhah-and-homosexuality/

Plato’s Euthyphro Dialogue:

https://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html

Covenant of Blood by Lawrence Hoffman:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Covenant_of_Blood.html?id=YtAwXlnNyMgC

In the second part of this series, Eli is joined by Bruchim’s Director of Education, Max DuBoff, to look at an essay by Rabbi Ethan Tucker that is directly relevant to the relationship between Ethics and Jewish law. After a brief introduction to Rabbi Tucker’s place in the Jewish world, they try to understand how Rabbi Tucker's view fits into the categories delineated in the first part of the series. They conclude by discussing Tucker’s comments in this essay on the topic of circumcision.

Show Notes:

Rabbi Ethan Tucker on Parshat Vaetchanan:

https://www.hadar.org/torah-tefillah/resources/ethical-norms-foundation-torah

In the third part of this  series, Eli and Max are joined by the moral philosopher Jeff Helmreich. After Jeff gets up to speed on the conversation, he complicates matters by introducing a fifth option for the relationship between ethics and Jewish law. The group digs into the "Oven of Akhnai," a famous story from the Babylonian Talmud. Jeff then talks about the process he went through when deciding to circumcise his son and articulates his position, followed by discussion of how his position relates to the other options discussed.

Show Notes:

Eli’s film, Cut:

https://www.cutthefilm.com

Sam Lebens book The Principles of Judaism:

https://a.co/d/7HCrWzx

Jeff’s Review of the Lebens book:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/religious-studies/article/abs/samuel-lebens-the-principles-of-judaism-oxford-oxford-university-press-2020-pp-xviii-352-750010000-hbk-isbn-9780198843252/80958BDE0851BCC4A63E7EE50E9E3693?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=bookmark

Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein’s Essay:

https://www.etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/great-thinkers/harav-aharon-lichtenstein/does-jewish-tradition-recognize-ethic

The Oven of Akhnai Story:

https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b.1?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

In his second appearance on The Bruchim Podcast, Jeff presents his view on the ethics of circumcision, and Max and Eli respond with their own views on the matter. They discuss the right to bodily integrity, the right to self-determination, the differences and similarities between male and female genital cutting practices, and the possibility that circumcision wrongs people without harming them.

Show Notes

Eli’s Text Study Video:

https://youtu.be/w_7xv6V68b8?si=YVdN3Jv53JTuOKv1

Eli’s Essay on the ethics of neonatal circumcision:

https://www.eliungar.com/circumcision/2013/9/8/on-the-impermissibility-of-infant-male-circumcision.html

Eruvin 13b

https://www.sefaria.org/Eruvin.13b.1?lang=en&with=all&lang2=en

In this episode, Eli and Max are joined by Dr. Na’ama Carlin to discuss her book Morality, Violence, and Ritual Circumcision. They talk about Dr. Carlin’s distinction between two types of violence: Manichaen violence, which is done by and to people; and generative violence, which helps to create identities." They discuss the contemporary circumcision debate and how Jewish circumcision resists its logic. Further, they talk about Derrida’s book Circumfession and how Na’ama leans on it for her understanding of Jewish circumcision.

Show Notes

Dr. Carlin’s book  Morality, Violence, and Ritual Circumcision

https://www.routledge.com/Morality-Violence-and-Ritual-Circumcision-Writing-with-Blood/Carlin/p/book/9780367551957

Between Prophylaxis and Child Abuse: The Ethics of Neonatal Male Circumcision by Michael Benatar and David Benatar

https://philpapers.org/rec/BENBPA-2

Rachel Bloom’s Foreskin Angels

https://youtu.be/LyqutExm-jw?si=M7XVraz3Fz3HLXuE

Derrida’s Circumfession

https://a.co/d/e6Isf8P

Interested in the ethics of circumcision? You’ve come to the right place! Eli and Max are joined by the bioethicist Prof. Brian Earp (National University of Singapore and Oxford University), a leading scholar of genital cutting and bodily integrity. Brian walks us through recent developments in the ethics of bodily integrity, and then we discuss the pros and cons of focusing on harm in ethical debates about circumcision. We raise and critique three prominent defenses of circumcision, by Joseph Mazor, Richard Shweder, and Michael and David Benatar. Then Eli, Max, and Brian each offer the best argument they can in favor of circumcision before critiquing these arguments.

Brian Earp, “Male or Female Genital Cutting: Why ‘Health Benefits’ Are Morally Irrelevant” 

Michael Benatar and David Benatar, “Between Prophylaxis and Child Abuse: The Ethics of Neonatal Male Circumcision” 

Joseph Mazor, "The Child’s Interests and the Case for the Permissibility of Male Infant Circumcision”   

Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon, “On the Impermissibility of Infant Male Circumcision: A Response to Mazor "

Richard Shweder, “Permitting Gender Equality in Abrahamic Circumcision: The Central Argument – In Retrospect and Reply”

Siobhan E. Alexander, Douglas W. Storm, and Christopher S. Cooper: “Teasing in school locker rooms regarding penile appearance”  

Buckle up! Season 2 is about to begin.

How do you make decisions about whether to circumcise your future kid? For feminist filmmaker Jessie Kahnweiler, the answer is by making a movie! Jessie joins Eli to discuss what it’s like to make a film about the sensitive subject of Jewish circumcision, how to balance different perspectives on a controversial topic, and the position of women in conversations about male circumcision. Eli and Jessie further explore how Jessie’s Jewish identity and the Jewish value of questioning relate to her work, and the importance of intentionality with regard to circumcision.

Watch Just the Tip here. 
 

How might childhood trauma relate to some of the big problems in our relationships and our world? Eli is joined by the psychologist Dr. Ronald Goldman, a longtime Jewish opponent of circumcision, to talk about Ron’s new book about empathy. Eli and Ron discuss mother-infant bonding and the effects it can have on adults, the systemic issues that prevent optimal mother-infant bonding, the psychology of trauma, and Ron’s journey as a writer and activist.

Audrey-Ann Deneault, Stuart I. Hammond, and Sheri Madigan, “A Meta-analysis of Child–Parent Attachment in Early Childhood and Prosociality” 

Saul McLeod, “Attachment Theory in Psychology” 

Ronald Goldman, The Empathy Evolution: Preventing Violence, Racism, Political Corruption, and Mental Illness by Creating More Caring People

Circumcision Resource Center 

Many Jewish males are circumcised in the hospital without any Jewish ritual, but how did this become the case? Eli and Max are joined by the historian Prof. Elizabeth Reis (CUNY), who has studied the medicalization of circumcision in mid-century New York. While rabbis were glad to see mainstream support for circumcision, they worried about a shift away from the religious component of circumcision, which is exactly what happened. We explore this tension, and we discuss a fascinating historical moment in which a mohel could perform a brit milah in the hospital, and how shorter hospital stays for women giving birth changed the practice of Jewish circumcision and provided opportunities for rabbis to criticize mothers. Plus, we discuss how circumcision might relate to medical and Jewish responses to intersex conditions.

Elizabeth Reis, “Medicalization and the Mainstreaming of Circumcision in Mid-twentieth-century America”

Elizabeth Reis, Bodies in Doubt: An American History of Intersex

This episode begins our series on hatafat dam brit, a Jewish ritual performed in place of brit milah that involves pricking the circumcision scar to draw a small amount of blood. Eli and Max are joined by Max Buckler, who has recently published the first bioethics paper on hatafat dam brit and its relationship to debates about circumcision. We discuss Max’s argument that hatafat dam brit is the least extreme form of genital cutting; therefore, if hatafat dam brit is wrong, then so are other forms of genital cutting, which introduce further ethical concerns. Along the way, we touch on a variety of ethical topics: the difference between a ritual act and the state it produces; why some Jewish parents find hatafat dam brit more disturbing than circumcision even though circumcision is more physically consequential; whether the concept of medical necessity is helpful; and the bioethical concepts of autonomy, care, and consent.

Max Buckler, “The Smallest Cut: The Ethics and (Surprising) Implications of Hatafat Dam Brit for the Ongoing Genital Cutting Debate”

Max Buckler, “The Ethics of Child Genital Cutting. When Does a Violation Occur? Comments on ‘Defending an Inclusive Right to Genital and Bodily Integrity for Children’ by Dr. Kate Goldie Townsend” 

Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon and Max DuBoff, Circumcision Texts in the Jewish Tradition 

How does hatafat dam brit fit into the process of Jewish conversion, and what is the religious and psychological significance of this practice? Eli and Max are joined by Rabbi Oren Steinitz to dig into these questions. Rabbi Oren describes how he talks about hatafat dam brit and circumcision in the conversion process, including the importance of transparency in these conversations. Then we discuss the meaning of hatafat dam brit and why Rabbi Oren thinks it is a powerful aspect of Jewish conversion for those already circumcised. We also discuss some differences between circumcision and hatafat dam brit, and the care that must be taken in considering hatafat dam brit and conversion with regard to children.

What is it like to undergo hatafat dam brit? Three men who’ve done it tell Eli and Max their stories: what led them to this ritual, how it went down, what it felt like, how they’ve viewed this experience in retrospect, and what they would want people to know who are considering hatafat dam brit for themselves.

The Jewcurious Show, “How to Find a Rabbi Who's Right for You” 

A family shaken by a traumatic hatafat dam brit shares their story with Eli and Max. This wrenching personal account touches on hatafat dam brit and conversion; on the moral dangers of hatafat dam brit for children past infancy; and on the unpredictable and overwhelming ways that trauma, especially related to unwanted genital contact, can manifest long after an initial triggering experience.

Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon, “For So We Find with Our Foremothers”– a Bruchim text study about circumcision and conversion.