The ABA and PT Podcast (Mandy Mason)

ABAs and OTs look at early learning from two very different lenses. Mandy and Aditi define terms according to their sciences and give their insights on the case of Stella, a premature baby.

They take a closer look at the sensory and behavioral aspects of early motor development and the roles of classical and operant conditioning. Mandy and Aditi also explore tactile defensiveness, habituation, and desensitization which are all used to accelerate early learning and therapeutic outcomes.

HIGHLIGHTS

01:27 Shoutout to Dr. Kimberly Berens

08:38 Debunking myths: ABA's only deal with ASD clients

11:45 Two perspectives: What does early learning look like?

19:35 Reflexes: Learning through respondent and operant conditioning

27:55 Sensory processes in preemies

38:25 Case study: Interventions with Stella the premature baby

GLOSSARY

Primitive reflexes - Unlearned behaviors that are automatic responses that are essential for survival

Reflexes - Purpose of the reflex is to provide a baby with an internal alarm system to protect from danger 

Little Albert Experiment - A study that looked at fears or phobias in conditioning in infancy (Pavlovian conditioning) 

Tactile defensiveness - A pattern of observable behavioral and emotional responses which can be aversive and negative and out of proportion to certain types of tactile stimuli that most people would not find painful.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

"Blind Spots: Why Students Fail and the Science That Can Save Them" Book by Dr. Kimberly Berens - https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Spots-Students-Fail-Science-ebook/dp/B08HNJYW3T

QUOTES

15:54 "Behavior analysts believe that things unfold by exposure to the environment and by consequences delivered to those behaviors."

16:21 "For OTs, the developmental milestones serve as a general guideline or roadmap, if you will. They aren't necessarily a benchmark because we know that every child has their own timeline and trajectory."

30:40 "Learned behavior occurs through experiential learning while unlearned is more of a combination of biology and sensory experiences that occurs very early on."

35:47 "We know that there is a  biological basis for sensory processing differences which can lead to poor processing of sensory information and, in turn, results in atypical perceptions of pain and discomfort."

49:04 "I think we can empower parents if we make it very specific what we're asking them to do and teach them to take data to see if what we're prescribing is working or making it worse."

This episode is part one of a two-part series featuring Liz Lefebre and Amy Evans, both highly acclaimed practitioners of Precision Teaching, as they discuss how to write more accurately measurable goals and their benefits. 

SMART goals are more overarching while precision teaching uses a more fine-tuned approach. By observing a learner's component skills and using charts, teachers can come up with more accurate goals and develop tailor-fit interventions. This includes determining pinpoints and a student's fluency in behaviors.

HIGHLIGHTS

03:13 Introduction to Liz Lefebre and Amy Evans

08:20 Writing goals begin with observable behavior and the component and tool skills

13:48 Determining the sufficiency of component skills in task analysis 

22:53 Comparing observations: Precision teaching vs percent correct 

29:12 How to come up with pinpoints

36:28 How to figure out the aim of fluency

GLOSSARY

RESA - Retention, Endurance, Stability, and Application

REAPS - The five performance results produced by fluency (longer Retention, greater Endurance, greater generalization to Application, Performance aims for teaching, and Standards for aims and evaluation.

Discrete Trial Training (DTT) - Discrete Trial Training (DTT) is a teaching technique used in some therapies for autistic children. It involves breaking skills down to their most basic parts and teaching those skills to children, step by step.

Pinpoint - A specific way of describing what a single countable behavior is.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Organization for Research and Learning Website

Dr. Aditi the OT Website

The Databased OT Facebook Group

QUOTES

11:01 "Depending on where the learner is coming to you in terms of their current skill set, then that would definitely make me change how I word my goal based on the situation."

13:35 "It's almost like we would this overarching goal and then we would have all these little benchmarks that I might be working on simultaneously that will all move towards meeting that same larger goal."

24:13 "There's no way to get that information (correct responses) in terms of frequency or count per minute unless you're also measuring the time that it takes to do that."

35:34 "I'm still getting my data on whether I'm making progress on the larger goals but, by taking data on those smaller things, I get to celebrate at the end of the day even though I maybe didn't go from zero to a hundred."

39:13 "If I have a learner who I know has seizures or has something physical going on with their hands or something, then I'm going to look at their fine motor aims very differently than I would with somebody who doesn't."

This episode is part one of a two-part series featuring Dr. Abigail B. Calkin; a teacher, writer, and poet who has combined Precision Teaching and inner behavior in her work with adults and children.

Abigail takes us back to her extraordinary journey through psychology and teaching, then to Behavior Analysis and Precision Teaching. From her early life to her schooling experiences, she cites the significant events that lead her on a bold, courageous, and extraordinary life. In part 1, she recounts her journey to get to Kansas to study under Dr. Ogden Lindsley.

06:08 Abigail’s family has a major influence on her ability to embrace challenges

12:45 Her early schooling experience that shaped her decision to go into Psychology and Philosophy

23:23 Abigail as a school counselor for children with learning disabilities and behavioral disorders

31:26 In pursuit of a Master's Degree in Philosophy

45:56 Her introduction to Precision Teaching

1:09:30 How she had taken Precision Teaching into her teaching career 

1:19:07 When did she first read on B.F Skinner’s Verbal Behavior?

RESOURCES

Visit Abigail’s website at http://www.abigailbcalkin.com/ 

Join The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 

QUOTES

34:38 "But I realized, when I have about 3-4 months left, Philosophy is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end. And what am I doing in Philosophy? I don't want to teach Philosophy. So I left the University of Edinburgh and I moved to Oregon on a whim."

1:11:36 "I had literally put together an entire bibliography of all professional articles and materials that were for multi-handicapped students— preschoolers which included infants and anybody up to about age 3, maybe 4, and all kinds of disabilities."

1:18:22 "The way ideas develop, they don't develop rapidly. You can't do a one-minute timing and teach your kid the way you can do it and teach a kid to read 2 years in one year using a one-minute timing a day. It doesn't work for thinking. It doesn't work for thought development."

1:35:33 "One of the things is having lived with epilepsy for 72 or 73 years… Now that I have a diagnosis, I am absolutely determined to be public about it because it's like autism— a learning disability. When we first found out about learning disabilities and emotional problems, we kind of put it off to the side. So we do these things (...) and I'm determined not to be private of that."

Aggressive behavior in children can be a real challenge for therapists and family members. This episode examines the case of Sam, an extremely aggressive child, and the OT and ABA behavior strategies that worked and didn't work for him.

Mandy explains how she began her collaboration with an OT to work out a behavior plan for Sam and the steps they took to produce improvements. Mandy and Aditi explore the points of collaboration between the two professionals and how their interaction can be used as a learning tool for others as well.

HIGHLIGHTS

02:48 Shoutout to the Ask for Evidence campaign

03:37 Case study: Sam's aggressive behavior 

14:28 Strategies with Sam: Where to begin

21:01 Strategies that needed fading out

25:45 Early teaching goals

29:58 Starting the OT and ABA collaboration

GLOSSARY

Light switch on and off protocol - A procedure of extinction on behaviors maintained by automatic reinforcement. This is commonly referred to as “sensory extinction.”

Red card, green card protocol - A procedure using two stimuli (red and green colored cards), conditioned via discrimination training, to reduce motor and vocal stereotypy in a youngster with autism.

Escape extinction - A procedure of extinction on behaviors maintained by negative reinforcement.

Variable ratio of reinforcement - In operant conditioning, a variable-ratio schedule is a schedule of reinforcement where a response is reinforced after an unpredictable number of responses. This schedule creates a steady, high rate of responding.

Signal - Directing eyes for instructional control 

Behavioral Skills Training (BST) - A training package that utilizes instructions, modeling, rehearsal, and feedback in order to teach a new skill. Typically training is implemented not for some fixed time, but rather to some predetermined criterion.

The Big 6+6 - In the Precision Teaching world, there is a set of 12 discreet fine motor movements which are the components of more complex skills. Being able to accurately and quickly complete these movements can lead to the successful performance of more advanced and functional tasks like dressing, eating, bathing, playing with toys, and writing.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link 

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Ask for Evidence campaign website 

Sense about Science website 

The Effects of the Big 6 + 6 Skills Training on Daily Living Skills for an Adolescent With Intellectual Disability 

QUOTES

12:23 "We taught him, over time, how to use Minecraft and how to build things and that allowed us to engage with him. He just developed this amazing interaction and all of a sudden we had an ability to instruct him and compete with that aggression."

15:20 "Those items were always directed at a person, so straight away that tells you that it's not self-stimulatory behavior. His mother accounted to me, he'd never throw things when left to his own in his room."

19:03 "Once we had him waiting for about 20 to 30 seconds, we knew we would have the ability to 20 or 30 seconds of work. So we started to introduce some very very simple skills."

28:05 "Improving his eye ticks made the most dramatic improvement in his aggression because he wasn't being corrected so he wasn't getting negative attention from having to repeat tasks."

38:10 "We did a combination of her fine motor strengthening goals, we used her core strengthening goals, then we brought in the Big 6 as well."

Richard McManus is the owner of The Fluency Factory, a PT learning lab in Massachusetts, and has been a Precision Teacher for more than 4 decades. In this episode, Richard recounts his life experience, beginning with his father's early influence, and his progressive use of inclusivity. He also talks about the individuals that have inspired him to advocate for the underprivileged. With his courage and resilience, Richard has influenced so many teachers, parents, and students. He firmly believes that we can make the impossible possible if we put our hearts into what we do and have the highest of expectations for the learners we work with and advocate for.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favourite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-pt-podcast/id1538336498

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Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

2:32 Richard’s major influences.

8:41 Why he left the English department after freshman year.

12:40 Working with people with developmental disabilities at a big state institution.

37:51 Richard talks about his experience doing training for parents of kids with autism.

39:40 The Fluency Factory.

49:41 The challenge of recruiting people.

52:47 Encouraging teachers to have a career trajectory within precision teaching.

Breaking the Code

The Fluency Factory

Make the Impossible Possible: One Man's Crusade to Inspire Others to Dream Bigger and Achieve the Extraordinary by Bill Strickland (*book)

Behavior in Public Places: Notes on the Social Organization of Gatherings by Ervin Goffman (*book)

39:12 “You don't really have a behavior problem. What you have is kids who aren't learning, and kids who aren't learning are not happy. So, you've got to create a learning environment, otherwise, you're going to have behavior problems.”

55:15 “Most of the children we see like my little guy from two years ago, who have problems with reading also have problems with their behavior.”

57:07 “We're going to have to figure out how do we embed the chart into things? Because without that, most of these programs that people are clinging to are just mumbo jumbo, they're not going to be very effective.”

59:03 “You really have to have high expectations, that is the key to any kind of progress your students are going to make.”

Dr. John Eshleman has dedicated his life to making our science successful for all. Standing in Ogden Lindsley's wish for the use of plain English in Precision Teaching, he has the ability to express complex scientific phenomena in understandable language.

John joins us in this episode to discuss a variety of topics from the richness of SAFMEDS to his explanation of Ogden's “Common Language for Analyzing Behavior”. He shares his views on how our rich underpinnings have been watered down in a rush to train behavior technicians in order to make the demands for frontline staff for the autism field. He also questions the reason behind the initiative to limit the BACB certifications to North America.

HIGHLIGHTS

04:41 Who were John's early influences that led him to pursue a career in Psychology and Precision Teaching?

13:42 John on his career after graduate school, including his projects with Aubrey Daniels & Associates

23:34 On the benefits of using manual flashcards 

26:18 What were some of the applications that John has used SAFMEDS for?

31:18 John describes Steve Graf's dissertation topic on word responses

41:01 On the use of plain English in Precision Teaching

58:06 On the current state of ABA

1:17:07 On the current state and future hope for Precision Teaching

1:29:18 Helpful resources for students pursuing Precision Teaching and charting

RESOURCES

Learn more about the Standard Celeration Society on their Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/celeration.org/  

Learn more about the Standard Celeration Society on their website: https://celeration.org/ 

Check out Carl Binder’s The Fluency Channel on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/189260084444139/ 

Visit the Fluency Project's website: https://fluency.org/ 

Check out Richard McManus’ Fluency Factory videos on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/richardinhingham/playlists 

Learn more about Steve Graf on this website: https://www.stevegraf.org/ 

Read the book, Precision Teaching--A Practical Science of Education by Norris G. Haring (Author), Margaret (Peggy) S. White (Author), Malcolm D. Neely (Author): https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Teaching-Practical-Sciene-Education/dp/1597380342 

Get a copy of the book, Handbook of the Standard Celeration Chart from the Cambridge Center Website: https://behavior.org/product/handbook-of-the-standard-celeration-chart-deluxe-edition-color-2/

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 

QUOTES

30:09 John: "Here's one of the things about instructional design— that's part of my philosophy at least— is that why make personal learning on something if they already know it? I'm always an advocate of 'if somebody knows something, can they test it out?' That way they don't have to waste their time or your time going through a learning program about something they already know."

45:48 John: "Lindsley's whole idea with COLAB was to use as much plain English as possible, presented accelerating consequence. There's nothing technical about that, right? It's presented, it's not taken away. It's accelerated, not decelerated because you have presented decelerating consequence too, as opposed to a punisher."

52:04 John: "Precision Teaching itself, as a term, is a euphemism. Euphemism is a better-sounding word that has less baggage or less controversy."

1:13:58 John: "To the extent that Precision Teaching can maintain some independence, it always was somewhat independent of ABA because they both come from different lineages and they only partially overlap. Precision Teaching is about a lot of positive things. I mean, we're teaching. So we call our client 'learners'."

1:19:09 John: "As long as we respect what the background is of Precision Teaching, what its main purpose was, using the actual chart and not being dogmatic about any of this. Being willing to graph things other ways too— that's the least dogmatic it can be."

One of the most effective ways to teach kids with limited skills is with activity schedules. These can be checklists or simple visual stimuli that allow kids to match activities to tasks that need completing.

Recent studies reinforce its effectiveness and Mandy and Aditi's own personal experiences provide you with actionable tips that you can apply to your own clients. Activity schedules are flexible and you can program them based on the skill levels of your students with high rates of reinforcement.

HIGHLIGHTS

02:18 Shoutout to Bethan Mair Williams

04:40 Activity schedules promote independence at home

12:47 Instructional control allows effective application of activity schedules

22:11 Activity schedules: Examples that work

28:39 Reinforcement and difficulties in scheduling activities 

38:00 Programming activity schedules based on the student's skills

GLOSSARY

Instructional control - ABAs may also call this compliance, engagement, and history of pleasant experiences such that a person feels motivated to complete tasks for you.

Premack's principle - A theory of reinforcement that states that a less desired behavior can be reinforced by the opportunity to engage in a more desired behavior. 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

"Activity Schedules for Children with Autism: Teaching Independent Behavior" Book by Lynn E. McClannahan 

"A Review of McClannahan and Krantz's Activity Schedules for Children With Autism: Teaching Independent Behavior: Toward the Inclusion and Integration of Children with Disabilities" by Ruth Anne Rehfeldt

University of Kansas Princeton Child Development Institute - McClannahan and Krantz are faculty members at this institution 

QUOTES

07:03 "The activity schedule is a really good way of being directed independently, not so much by him, but for him, he was reading at this stage so a written schedule to complete activities. And he actually loved it."

10:36 "The actual skill of observing, looking at some stimuli, either a shape or picture of the item, it can be anything that matches an activity to something that has to be completed, and complete that activity and then move on."

31:30 "It doesn't stay in place very long if it's not working... that's probably the hardest part is to make sure you have enough crossover with parents or a method of them getting help if they need it."

36:54 "What often comes up is you have kids that really want to complete an activity and so you have to teach flexibility around leaving tasks not completed. For instance, do a jigsaw puzzle for 10 minutes where the puzzle's not completed."

37:39 "You can vary and build in flexibility time into it. You can get them to self-check some work that they previously did or complete a homework task or do their spell words. So yeah, you can really use them in a lot of different ways depending on the skill level."

This episode is a continuation of the previous episode featuring Liz Lefebre and Amy Evans, both highly acclaimed practitioners of Precision Teaching. They highlight a thinking process of how to get precise when writing your goals. Combining measurable data in the SMART approach, practitioners can set even more attainable goals for the learners. 

HIGHLIGHTS

02:14 Being Specific on what you’re teaching and what the students are supposed to do 06:59 Setting measurable frequencies 09:43  Making the goal Attainable within a given time.  11:44 Relevance of the goal 11:58 Timebound: How quickly can your score be achieved?

GLOSSARY SMART-Acronym on how to pinpoint a goal. ( Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevance, Timebound). Pinpoint - A specific way of describing what a single countable behavior is.

RESOURCES Octave Training Website 

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Organization for Research and Learning 

Dr. Aditi the OT Website 

The Databased OT Facebook Group

QUOTES 02:54  When you’re looking at that goal, then you want to think about it and make sure that the language that you use is actually real, like behavior.

09:13  When you’re using ‘percent correct,’ it could be anything and that leaves it up to the person that is in charge, whereas if you write a goal that says 8/10 across four days in a row, then it’s very clear what you’re looking for.

10:16   For these small things you might be able to get that learner to practice it much more often without you necessarily being there. So, once you’ve established a behavior then it’s just a matter of practice.

13:21  The mode of precision Teaching is that the learner is always right. If the learner is exhibiting a skill deficit or a certain behavior, it’s because of the conditions that are the contingencies that are in place, the environment, and the motivation. So, they’re right and it’s our job to change to fit their needs.

15:38  Part of the learner always being right is taking the right kind of data so that we can see if we’re making progress on a daily basis.

This episode tells the story of a humble, passionate, and inspiring human being who gave his all for the science of Precision Teaching. Dr. Carl Koenig was instrumental in the creation of the behavior chart, now called the Standard Celeration Chart and the foundations of Precision Teaching. Carl spent over a decade of his life working alongside Dr. Ogden Lindsley through the highs and lows of shaping Precision Teaching in the 60s and 70s.

In this episode, he will take us on a journey beginning with his early work experience at Kansas University, how he met Ogden, the development of precision teaching, and their efforts to spread the work to professionals and parents, amongst other things.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA==

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3:15 Carl’s childhood and his early work experience.

6:57 How he met Ogden Lindsley and how he got to Kansas University.

8:45 The development of Precision Teaching.

22:09 About his master’s degree and dissertations.

29:01 Carl’s findings that behavior multiplies and divides.

32:33 Workshops and other tested publishing alternatives to spread the word about Precision Teaching.

38:00 What the Behavior Bank was and how the state of technology got in the way of what could have been a state of the art hub for knowledge about behavior.

42:36 Two other attempts to apply the science: learning screening and PT 2. (Squared).

53:19 Carl’s life now that he’s retired.

Our Aims, Discoveries, Failures, and Problem by Ogden R. Lindsley (dissertation)

Handbook of the Standard Celeration Chart, Deluxe Edition (book)

My Time with Ogden and Precision Teaching Reminisces by Dr. Carl H. Koenig (pdf) - Check out our Facebook Group for this and many more resources! 

30:45 “Behavior generally changes not in equal steps.”

50:21 “It’s not too late to make good science.”

57:21 “Accept the fact that technology is improving and improving and improving and it's better than sometimes we could do.”

Precision teachers, according to Jack Auman, have an impact on students similar to the Butterfly Effect because of the small changes that can have enormous positive outcomes.

In this episode, Jack talks about his journey to Precision Teaching after he met Steve Graf. From scorekeeping at a baseball game together to the adventures that they had together. He goes on to discuss Steve's brilliant ideas and how he used his own programming knowledge to bring them to life.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno

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Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com

Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

2:03 How Jack's father instilled a love of math in him at a young age.

13:34 Three strategies that worked for him as a math teacher.

16:05 A little background on how he became interested in precision teaching.

27:20 Combocoach's goal and design.

32:02 The Typing Coach concept.

43:28 The PracticeSheeter.

49:05 What he discovered while assisting with Og's archives.

52:48 Steve thinking and looking at things differently.

Learn more about Steve Graf and his works at https://www.stevegraf.org/

Auman Subjects SAFMED By Auman 2010 (*Google Spreadsheets Link)

08:02 “He [Prof. Frank Ciotola] brought to life a whole new dimension of math, where you could take an idea that you could have, and take the negation, and work with that negation with the laws of logic, and make a whole new geometry that was valid and applicable.”

19:39 “Steve had all these marvelous ideas, and I was lucky enough to learn enough programming to incorporate his ideas into our games. Checking my timeline, here's where we bridge into precision teaching or the standard celebration chart.”

Spitting is a complex ADL that can be a real challenge to teach to kids in the spectrum. Especially when kids are nonverbal or have conditions like pica, ABAs and OTs have to use prompts as imitation and language are simply ineffective.  

They discuss the case of Andre and how strategies like TAG teaching and tools like straws were effective in teaching mouth manipulation. They also discuss the many advantages of video modeling as a standardized way of teaching, as well as the best way social stories can be applied in toothbrushing.

HIGHLIGHTS

02:33 Shoutout to OTs who want to include data collection in their practice

03:50 Spitting as an ADL: Challenges for ABAs and OTs

08:23 Evidence-based strategies: What works and what doesn't

13:09 Case study: Teaching Andre to spit  

26:46 How to effectively use video modeling, straws, and social stories 

GLOSSARY

Hyporesponsive (low proprioceptive awareness) - Not having as much awareness (like your mouth because you cannot see it) resulting in difficulty in imitation skills 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

Dr. Kimberly Berens' Website

"How to Brush Your Teeth with Snappy Croc" Book by Jane Clarke

QUOTES

08:06 "Spitting is really important for so many things and it's also sort of a manipulation of the mouth that is important for other skills like speech, etc if you have a child that needs that type of oral motor movement."

23:28 "We have a range of whistles, about 12 different whistles with different intensities and we just ordered a lot of different ones and then we rated them. That is a way of measuring and breaking it down when you're getting increased force in order to make a sound out of a whistle."

25:37 "The great thing about using a clicker is... that when you tag the response, it's immediate and it's the same every time, so it identifies that that's the exact approximation of the skill that you're looking for."

32:44 "Why it is that child might be more proficient in one learning channel like seeing something and saying it or hearing it and doing it, as opposed to other learning channels, is not necessarily that they're better in that channel, they've just had more practice and more reinforcement in that particular area."

38:32 "Maybe where social stories can in is where we're teaching sort of consequences of not brushing teeth well or perhaps the effects of sugar without toothbrushing. So trying to do some education around oral hygiene as opposed to actually how to brush your teeth."

Using percent correct has become the industry standard in behavior analysis. Dr. Rick Kubina, CentralReach’s Director of Research and Professor of Special Education at The Pennsylvania State University, joins the show today to shed light on a more objective way of looking at data using precision teaching. 

Though percent correct is useful in coming up with ratios, it is not always the best measure because of the ease with which the results can be manipulated. Precision teaching looks at the numbers objectively, uses visual charts that document the processes, and provides data-driven context to determine whether interventions are effective or not.

HIGHLIGHTS

02:42 Introduction to Rick Kubina

06:45 How percent correct became the industry standard

10:49 Why fewer ABA's actually practice precision teaching

18:38 When percent correct is the right way to measure

27:40 The resistance to precision teaching is rooted in human behavior

33:29 How to apply precision teaching charts to your discipline 

45:31 Information on Standard Celeration Charts you can download and use

50:29 How Standard Celeration Charts determine when a goal is mastered 

GLOSSARY

Dead Person Test - A test that says if a dead person cannot do it, then it is behavior, and if a dead person can do it, it is not behavior.

Dimensional quantity - Something that has dimensional counts or numbers that tell you its characteristics (height, weight, etc)

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Greatness Achieved Publishing Company

Reflections on Precision Teaching book by Rick Kubina

CentralReach Institute

Standard Celeration Society Facebook Group

The Databased OT Facebook Group

Aditi's Website

QUOTES

16:11 "Let's say, Aditi you are 20 out of 20, Mandy was 1 out of 1, and I was 7 out of 7. You know, we have a pretty big difference Mandy, myself, and you, but it's all going to be 100% correct."

23:06 "We in precision teaching have a measure that's called celeration and this measure tells us how fast is the behavior changing. And guess how we report that? We report it in percentage of weekly growth. So someone's behavior is doubling, we say that behavior has a hundred percent growth each week."

24:26 "Here's what I would suggest. Just don't convert it to percent. Just use the count. So in this instance, if you have a checklist, having your actual counts even if you don't time it, that's always going to be more informative than when you convert it."

26:37 "All of you OTs, the good news is just don't take the step where you convert it to percent and just work with the counts because they'll be more informative to you and you'll be able to understand at a deeper level how well is your client responding to whatever intervention you're applying."

47:24 "When you get someone who's been in a system, you're starting from ground zero. What a waste of time for you to figure out. Oh, I have to do this and this again. Whereas, if someone just showed you, here's all the things we tried, then you can try new things."

52:23 "Mastery should not be measured in terms of percentage. It should be measured in terms of the frequency that we talked about before."

In this bridging episode of The ABA & PT podcast (formerly known as The ABA & OT podcast), Mandy explains the podcast relaunch with the new direction— which is now centered around the journeys and discoveries of the giants in the field of Precision Teaching & ABA. 

RESOURCES

Join The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Dr. Hank Pennypacker, a pioneer in the Science of Human Behavior, shared profound insights about the standard celeration chart in amongst the many wisdoms he describtes in this podcast. Despite its limited adoption, he emphasized the immeasurable value of the chart to those wanting to make accurate predictions about behavior.

Dr. Pennypacker passionately advocates for the widespread use of precise measurement to fields involving human behavior and why percent correct lacks the arguably greatest contribution of B.F. Skinner's, being Rate of Response, and Hank's contribution of celeration as a measure to predict future performance.

He also talks about his contributions to identification of early breast detection through this program, Mammacare. 

Join us as we delve into the Hank's 6 decade career in Behavior Science and his discussions of the Standard Celeration chart in his advice to Try the Chart!

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA==

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast

Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com

Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

0:05 Dr. Hank Pennypacker’s journey: From teaching psych to transforming behavior

15:00 The success and challenges of incorporating self-charting and personalized learning

21:45 Collaborating with Ogden: Pioneering precision teaching and behavior change

30:11 Developing technology and training for effective breast self-examination

39:17 Hope for the future of precision teaching and charting

49:11 The challenges of promoting the use of the chart in the field of ABA and its value in making accurate predictions and anticipating behavior

About Dr. Hank Pennypacker: https://www.abainternational.org/constituents/bios/henrypennypacker.aspx

Link to Engineering the Upswing (book): https://www.engineeringtheupswing.org

The MammaCare Method: https://mammacare.org/

41:05 "The power of the measurement system lies in the recognition of the fact that the frequency is the correct measure of behavior." - Dr. Hank Pennypacker

49:26 “It's not easy. I don't pretend otherwise but that doesn't make it invaluable.” - Hank Pennypacker

49:51 “If you're in any kind of activity in which you have to anticipate what's going to happen, and what's going to happen is behavior, you're better off if you're using a device which allows you to make accurate predictions.” - Dr. Hank Pennypacker

In this debut episode of The ABA & OT Podcast, Mandy and Aditi discuss the goals of the podcast which center on inter-professional collaboration, education on challenging behavior, and having conversations on the wealth of intersections between the two fields.

Mandy tells the story of her daughter's autism which sparked her interest in applied behavioral analysis (ABA). Similarly, Aditi also shares her journey in occupational therapy (OT) and her goal to treat her son's ADHD. The two then discuss how they realized their common goals and agreed to start this podcast.

HIGHLIGHTS

00:31 The ABA & OT Podcast: What it is and what it's not

05:41 Meeting Mandy: Her journey to understand her daughter's autism 

13:55 Meeting Aditi: Her quest to treat her son's ADHD 

16:19 Realizing a common goal and starting the podcast 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

- The History of ABA and OT complete with links and videos

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

QUOTES

01:28 "Like so many things that are valued but difficult to attain, such as fine wine or even marriage, effective teamwork, collaboration is an art as much as it is science. It requires a great deal of practice, patience, and nurturing to flourish." 

03:26 "What does it mean when she says Johnny needs proprioceptive input? Or when a behavior therapist discusses the importance of differential reinforcement? Whether you're a behavior therapist or an OT, we want to make your life easier."

11:28 "The consequence matters. In other words, what happens after a behavior determines if it's going to happen again."

18:20 "As I start to read more and learn from you, I start to get really excited about the underpinnings of OT, and really, how our vision is the same and that is to engage people in meaningful pursuits and to help people overcome obstacles."

Elizabeth Haughton is a highly recognized educational consultant, the Founder of the Haughton Learning Center, and recipient of both the ‘Lifetime Achievement Award’ and the ‘Our Teacher Award’ from the Standard Celeration Society.

She has been a precision teacher for more than 50 years and joins us today to talk about her combination of heart and science within her teaching model.

She explains how she incorporated precision teaching with her students in a classroom setting and what led her to open her own learning center. 

Filled with joy, passion, and excitement it’s a pleasure talking to Elizabeth about all things precision teaching and how she’s transformed childrens' lives through the use of charting.

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425  

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno 

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== 

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast 

Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com/ 

Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast 

HIGHLIGHTS

02:54 Elizabeth’s work as an educator and the different children she works with.

05:18 The impact Elizabeth’s mother had on her and how she found her passion for teaching people with additional needs.

11:05 What it was like growing up on a cattle ranch in California with 5 other siblings.

14:41 How different games can help children with their learning.

16:51 How Elizabeth started her teaching career and why she focused on children who had problems with retention.

20:23 What Elizabeth learned from her first experience of precision teaching.

25:25 The history of ‘The Standard Celeration Chart’ and how Elizabeth knew she wanted to be a precision teacher.

28:49 How the classroom can be arranged to help children chart and what Elizabeth does to make charting easier for the kids.

33:55 What you can learn from the consistent charting of data about how a child’s day-to-day affects their performance.

35:27 ‘The happy learner model’ and the benefit of direct instruction in your teaching plan.

37:54 How Elizabeth enrolled other teachers into the precision teaching method.

40:45 How working with Terry Harris taught Elizabeth about gross motor and fine motor coordination.

44:01 The people who influenced and taught Elizabeth and how she became so knowledgeable in precision teaching.

47:18 Why Elizabeth moved to Canada and what the classes were like for children with additional needs there.

50:10 How Elizabeth decided what to teach the children in her classes and why she doesn’t always stick to a standard curriculum.

56:30 What made Elizabeth start her own private learning center and what it was like running an intensive program.

1:02:15 Elizabeth’s current work in program creation, teaching, and coaching.

1:05:05 Different coaches people can reach out to to learn about precision teaching.

1:09:40 The different writing manuals and materials that Elizabeth has published.

1:12:55 The charting Elizabeth does on her own data and how this has helped her.

1:23:20 The need for parents to be involved in the education of their children and the future of behavioral science and precision teaching.

1:32:11 Why most schools don’t incorporate precision teaching in their curriculum.

1:34:50 Where Elizabeth got the idea for hearts on charts, and why she always starts with the heart.

1:41:43 The importance of gratitude.

RESOURCES

Learn more about the Haughton Learning Center on Elizabeth’s website: https://haughtonlearningcenter.com/

Check out The Story Book (memory game): https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/294601273632?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=294601273632&targetid=1279751774829&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9112673&poi=&campaignid=9772799667&mkgroupid=123973272138&rlsatarget=pla-1279751774829&abcId=578876&merchantid=7364522&gclid=Cj0KCQiAieWOBhCYARIsANcOw0zDtzJER65LjzYpAHIKLORmWrlwKD9Y3fkUiCTL5AYk6SHebNALfvQaAgQrEALw_wcB

Find out more about Blink - the world’s fastest card game: https://www.amazon.com.au/Reinhards-Staupes-Blink-Worlds-Fastest/dp/B0037W5Y2W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24KCEZJW88BYJ&keywords=blink+game&qid=1641695101&sprefix=blink+game%2Caps%2C384&sr=8-1

Find the game Spot It: https://www.amazon.com/Asmod%C2%A8%C2%A6e-Spot-It-Classic-Eco-Blister/dp/B08CMRPCKL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1S9H6FUUC6N3F&keywords=spot+it&qid=1641695144&sprefix=spot+i%2Caps%2C433&sr=8-1

Get Connect 4: https://www.amazon.com/Connect-Strategy-Board-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B06XY881H4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1V9IFDVNSHYMG&keywords=connect+4&qid=1641695183&sprefix=connec%2Caps%2C527&sr=8-3

Learn more about the bead counters Eileen Standing Bear makes through Mohawk Leathers: http://www.mohawkleathers.com/

Find more about Morningside Academy

Learn more about The Standard Celeration Chart

QUOTES

04:53 Elizabeth “I’m amazed that we’re really able to make a difference in the lives of so many youngsters.”

12:55 Elizabeth “To me if you’re going to be into precision teaching and the measurement of learning be part of a team. It’s so important to be a learner, to be part of the team.”

44:38 Elizabeth “Build their strengths and their needs, but don’t ever forget what can they do and get it going.”

53:05 Elizabeth “The students, they can all learn. That’s all I know, I haven’t met anyone who can’t learn but I have to go where they are and I have to bring up their strengths. It takes figuring out but sometimes you have to unlearn your own head and watch what they’re doing instead of what you think the curriculum is.”

1:21:14 Elizabeth “Helping other people and being part of something that really does change lives in a positive way, keeps your spirit young, keeps your energy.”

1:33:59 Elizabeth “Those little guys want to read, I saw it when I taught. They want to do it, they want to write their numbers, they want to do their maths facts, they want to learn. So how can we give it to them will always be something I spend my whole life how to make it better.”

It’s an absolute honor to have one of the pioneers of precision teaching on the show, Dr. Clay Starlin. You’ll hear in this episode how he paved the way for teachers and disenfranchised children as he takes us on a journey through the profession that he has loved for nearly five decades of his life.

You'll learn about his childhood, his own struggles with reading as a child, and what ultimately motivated him to focus on improving student outcomes through the use of precise measurement. He also talks about how he developed verbal behavior around precision teaching and how continus to assist teachers in understanding how to deliver effective instruction and achieve mastery with their students, and so much more.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498  

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno  

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== 

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast  

Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com  

1:28 Clay's early life and the people who have greatly influenced his career.

6:26 How dyslexia affected his own education.

19:05 His development of verbal behavior around precision teaching.

23:42 What s Precision Teaching classroom looks like.

29:59 Why Precision Teachers leave the public sector.

34:24 Dr. Starlin walks us through his journey post his doctorate.

42:22 How Precision Teachers traditionally have shared charts and data and collaborated.

50:51 The results of charting his own behavior.

1:21:00 What keeps him busy these days.

Get the book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn: https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-50th-Anniversary-dp-0226458121/dp/0226458121/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1646092023

Watch the Heart to Chart video series on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/HearttheChart

Details of how to purchase a wrist counter at Mohawk Leathers: http://www.mohawkleathers.com/

Clay’s upcoming book, Weaving Love and Science into Educational Practice, will be available at https://greatnessachieved.com/

Articles by Clay Starlin can be found here: https://www.fluency.org/publications

Learn more about Bemidji State College’s Special Education program: https://www.bemidjistate.edu/academics/departments/special-education/emotional-behavioral-disorders-licensure/

Skinner on Measurement 2013 Revision by Ogden R. Lindsley

30:43 “I have not given up on the public sector, because I think that is the place where the disenfranchised children of the world need to be supported because they don't have the resources to go to a private tutoring.”

32:02 “There needs to be a system that says, if your students are consistently not learning, there needs to be some correction. And you must accept it, or you must leave the profession.”

1:02:40 “If you invest all your energy on people they go away, but if you invested in policies, policies have a tendency to stay.”

1:06:09 “All educators agree that we want to get kids to mastery, but we don't agree on how to define it.”

1:15:03 “In loving relationships, if you don't have the truth, you're in trouble, and science is all about searching for the truth.”

1:19:02 “I have all these quotes from people saying, simplicity is genius, and on and on, but it really is hard to make it simple.”

Habitual behaviors can be interruptive on a student's development. In this episode, Mandy and Adito discuss the case of Matt's detrimental nail biting and skin picking and the effective strategies they use to reverse it.  

Mandy shares her own struggles with nail-biting and her own personal strategies to extinguish this behavior. Mandy and Aditi also dive into the deeper reasons behind these automatic behaviors and how the differences between attention-maintained behaviors, habits, or something else can modify the best approach to replace them. 

HIGHLIGHTS

03:57 Shoutout to Dr. Rick Kubina

06:01 Matthew's nail picking: Strategies to address nail biting 

16:53 Mandy's strategies for nail-biting habit reversal

30:28 Applying reinforcement and environmental strategies

GLOSSARY

Comprehensive model of behavioral management - Has 5 categories: sensory, cognitive, affective (emotional), motor, and place and environment. 

Automatic escape maintained behavior - Any behavior that primarily happens to avoid, delay, or end something unpleasant. Over time, the behavior is maintained or persists because it was effective at escaping or avoiding the unpleasant thing in the environment.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

QUOTES

09:29 "We're talking about, in this episode, about behavior that is automatically maintained or habitual in nature which means they're not doing it for someone's attention or to get out of demands but it is repetitive and embedded behavior that the individual's no longer aware of."

12:28 "When you are engaging that behavior, it stops you thinking about something unpleasant for periods of time. That's one. So a behavior analyst would call automatic escape maintained behavior."

24:29 "If a behavior is not reinforced it will extinguish so having someone do something else that is a replacement behavior can result in extinction of that original behavior."

37:33 "His behavior was very much attention-maintained. So yeah, that's another thing to look at. Is the behavior maintained by something else occurring in the environment, not just habit."

38:43 "You allow the student to engage in a behavior and you provide different consequences so you run sessions of it being reinforced with escape from a demand or reinforced with attention. Or the student is just left on their own and you look at the rates of that behavior in that session time and you see where the rates are at their highest."

Mandy and Aditi discuss why professionals from the two fields find it difficult to be friends. The hosts debunk the biggest myths of their practices and explain the reasons behind this stereotyping. 

They also perform a role-play and introduce the ABA and OT Ice Breaker that members from either profession can use to open a conversation that fosters collaboration and leads to positive results.

HIGHLIGHTS

06:27 Honoring Dr. Jose Martinez-Diaz

13:52 Myth 1: OT and ABA have different guiding theories   

16:42 Myth 2: ABAs don't need the expertise of anybody else  

20:57 Myth 3: Behavioral intervention results in robotic skills that don't generalize

23:25 Myth 4: OTs don't base on evidence or measure data 

26:38 Myth 5: OT's are all about sensory, 

30:17 Myth 6: ABAs don't consider intrinsic factors

33:13 Myth 7: ABA is all about discreet trial 

35:28 Role-playing the ABA and OT Ice Breaker

Ice Breaker questions:

1. "That's how my session looked. How does your session look, Mandy?"

2. "What are the underlying component skills for handwriting that he's missing to assist us to get him to form those letters?"

3. "I can definitely expose you to some of those and if it's something you can incorporate into your session, I think it would be a win for both of us."

4. "I'm excited at those measures that you have, and I say measures because that's what you're recounting to me. I'm excited that we can measure some of those things and provide interventions and look at response."

5. "Mandy, would you be open to another thought here? When I work with Sam..."

6. "Is it behavior that I've reinforced in some way? Is it both? Is it just one? Is that something that you and I could really tease out and figure out?"

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

- ‘The OT & ABA Icebreaker’ : questions to get the collaboration started.

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Interprofessional Collaborative Practice between Occupational Therapists and Behavior Analysts for Children with Autism - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336314593_Interprofessional_Collaborative_Practice_between_Occupational_Therapists_and_Behavior_Analysts_for_Children_with_Autism

Calkin, A.B. Inner behavior: Empirical investigations of private events. BEHAV ANALYST 25, 255–259 (2002) - https://doi.org/10.1007/BF03392063

QUOTES

20:05 "It's a myth because in fact behavior analysts with their interactions with their own governing bodies are required to refer to experts in specific areas beyond their area of practice."

21:35 "Poor application of the science of medicine might misdiagnose or prevent recovery from heart failure just like the poor application of behavioral science might prevent skills from showing up where they are needed."

26:21 "I do think OTs can do better with data even though we have a different time frame that we work in. There's a huge push in OT to take data."

28:04 "Now in the US, OTs are becoming a lot more cognizant of behavior and not just sitting there blindly and saying okay, it's sensory and that's it."

31:04 "Some behavior is either impossible or very difficult to measure so it looks like we're disregarding it. It's just that we care so much about measurement and improvement."

34:01 "Unfortunately, in this country, the understanding of ABA is seen through repeated discreet trials with young children with autism. And this is not the science of behavior analysis and this is not applied behavior analysis."

36:00 "You have to get really comfortable saying things like 'thank you for that idea or tip' to the OT or ABA."

The ABCs of behavior is an important tool to analyze whether a certain behavior is likely to happen again or not. The key here is that consequence matters. For OTs, it is possible to measure the effectiveness of interventions by hypothesizing and data-taking.

Discussed today is the case of Johnny's rocking and some antecedent (environmental) interventions that could usher in permanent change and affect the consequences of this action. Also discussed today are ways to get assent from clients to help ensure that interventions will have favorable outcomes. 

HIGHLIGHTS

02:18 Shoutout to the World Health Organization for developing Self-Help +

04:55 The ABCs: Is it reflexive behavior or is it sensory?

15:02 The consequence matters on whether a behavior will happen again

22:28 Hypothesizing can help OTs measure the effectiveness of interventions

29:20 Case study: Johnny's rocking and implementing antecedent interventions

36:02 Modifying ABCs to improve client progress

40:30 How to get assent from clients 

GLOSSARY

Operant behavior - This refers to behavior that can be modeled by its consequences. It often corresponds closely to behavior colloquially called voluntary or purposive. As this behavior is related to its consequences, it is said to be emitted rather than elicited.

Antecedent intervention - A strategy to manipulate an environment prior to the occurrence of a behavior. This is utilized to increase the likelihood of the desired behavior to occur and to decrease the occurrence of maladaptive behavior.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Scalable Psychological Interventions for People in Communities Affected by Adversity by the WHO

Dr. Aditi the OT Website

The Databased OT Facebook Group

QUOTES

15:00 "The consequence matters. So when you're trying to determine why is a student doing this thing? Why is this occurring? The first question to look at is what is the consequence? It's the consequence that matters."

15:25 "If the behavior is something we want less of or there is a behavior we want more of, we need to look at what is occurring after behavior to either strengthen or weaken it."

18:01 "If you're going to put interventions in place and look at their effectiveness, don't do it immediately in the presence of behavior you don't want more of if it's potentially a pleasant consequence to that student. Do it prior to the behavior."

29:03 "Are they deprived of something or are they satiated on something? This motivating variable before the behavior, looking at the environment is very important to determine why the student is engaging."

41:54 "Ensuring that you are strengthening and reinforcing behavior that has a student engaged, that it's a pleasant task that's involved, and that great things happen when the student is engaged and involved in the activity."

Today's episode features Sasha Long, BCBA and Founder of The Autism Helper. There are areas for improvement in the relationship between ABA and OT, so Sasha shares her experiences and tips to help make the work more collaborative and effective. 

The differences in approach between the fields of ABA and OT present an opportunity to enhance both practices. By honestly touching on the pain points of this relationship, Mandy, Aditi, and Sasha recognize the benefits that each field brings to the table.   

HIGHLIGHTS

03:34 Shoutout to Jonathan Amey

04:14 Collaborating and misunderstandings with ABAs

15:35 Tools for collaboration for effective data collection

23:12 Tension, biases, and preferring ABA or OT over the other

40:28 Views on ABA and accountability 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

Sasha Long's Website - The Autism Helper

QUOTES

13:21 "My goal for this first meeting if I'm meeting a new clinician is not to sell them on my ideas. Because my goal meeting a client for the first time is not teaching a new skill. My goal meeting client the first time is to pair."

16:57 "I think asking people's opinion is always really helpful and just really keeping it super simple. Like what do I need to know, not what would I like to know. You got to go like need to know."

35:22 "You find connections. Like I tell behavior analysts this a lot, we're data people, when you go into a new meeting with a new parent, with an OT, with an IP team, you should be able to, in that session, find 3 connections with someone."

37:32 "The biggest thing, the biggest biggest biggest thing I think we can learn as OTs from ABA is learn how to take data because that's going to change the trajectory of our conversation."

42:38 "It can be collaborative, it can be fun, it can be safe, it can be televisable, it can be all these amazing things and that's, if we as a field can continue to move in that direction, I think collaboration will follow a lot more easily."

In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Abigail B. Calkin as she continues to share her extraordinary journey through Behavior Analysis and Precision Teaching, especially on her move to Kansas to earn a Ph.D. under the supervision of Ogden Lindsley.

She also taps into some interesting parts of her life where she developed the one-minute timing method in order to change her behavior and relationships, how she learned Russian using SAFMEDS, and how charting has helped her find out and minimize her epileptic episodes. She then talks about ‎AimStar Lite, a project that aims to make charting much easier and faster for users of the standard celeration chart.

03:16 Abigail's very close friendship with Diana Dean led her to get a Ph.D. in Kansas under Ogden Lindsley's guidance

21:36 Abigail describes some of their family projects which include counting their behavior, and talks about exposing her 5-year-old son to Precision Teaching 

26:15 Her views on Errorless Learning and how she learned Russian using SAFMEDS

34:27 Precision Teaching and the classes she took at Kansas University

41:03 How Abigail practiced the 'one-minute timing' technique to change her behavior and relationships

57:57 How her supervision and mentorship with Ogden looked like and her thoughts on how the Behavior Bank was contributed to Behavior Analysis 

1:13:54 Abigail's life and career after completing her Ph.D. and on learning about her epilepsy

1:19:08 What charting has shown her to minimize the effects of epilepsy

1:42:00 Abigail remains hopeful on the use of Standard Celeration Chart not just within Behavior Analysis but also in other fields of work 

1:47:40 Introducing the AimStar Lite— a project in which Abigail is involved in

RESOURCES

You can learn more about Abigail on her website: http://www.abigailbcalkin.com/ 

Learn more about the Standard Celeration Society: https://celeration.org/ 

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 

QUOTES

31:18 "Did I worry about whether I made an error? No. When I do a reading of something I've written (...) you know, it's nice to be able to read absolutely fluently and never make a mistake but that's not me. And so I gloss over and I cover it up, I go back, something like that. I figure in learning, you make mistakes. A mistake is an opportunity to learn how to do something better."

38:15 "You have to have standardization on measurement. Blood pressure is standardized. Carbon dating is standardized. All of these things that my father would bring home as ideas and talk about, they're standardized. And so why not standardize the measurement of learning?"

44:02 "I started doing a one-minute timing and in 2 weeks, I had flipped it around. I was counting all day; positive feelings, negative feelings, positive thoughts, negative thoughts, missed opportunities for both... and that made the difference. It took the negative, unpleasant thoughts and feelings down, and it boosted the positive ones."

What is the impact of sensory and behavior on early survival skills? Mandy and Aditi begin with a case study on Aditi's son Tristan who was diagnosed with failure to thrive. 

Mandy and Aditi also refer to a behavioral feeding program where differential reinforcement was used alongside other interventions to build adaptive eating repertoires. They also talk how a collaborative sensory and behavior approach can develop a hypothesis and the need to exercise caution when using profession-specific terms to avoid miscommunication.

HIGHLIGHTS

04:36 Shoutout to Margo B. Holm

05:45 Case study: Tristan's early feeding problems

12:57 Differentiating sensory and behavior: Interoception and Dead Man’s Test 

22:49 Early feeding behaviors and the sensory hypothesis behind it 

30:14 A behavioral feeding program for failure-to-thrive infants by Larson, Ayllon, and Barrett

42:12 Key takeaways

GLOSSARY

Interoception - The perception of sensations from inside the body and includes the perception of physical sensations related to internal organs like the heartbeat, respiration, and satiety.

Dead man test - If a dead person can do it, it's not behavior. If a dead person can't do it, it is behavior. Examples: laying still, falling down stairs, being noncompliant, sitting in a chair.

Unlearned (respondent) behavior - Behavior that a baby does not need prior learning to engage like survival mechanisms (feeding, suckling).

Differential reinforcement - Promotion and strengthening of behavior we want to see again and weakening what is reinforcing behavior that we want to reduce.

Punishment - Something that reduces a behavior.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

- Early Feeding - Failure to Thrive Glossary of Terms for ABA & OT

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270026479_Our_Mandate_for_the_New_Millennium_Evidence-Based_Practice - Our Mandate for the New Millenium by Margo B. Holm

https://nebula.wsimg.com/3783318e9b2543b7e5a133adb3b0bafb?AccessKeyId=1133D4CF8F18F0339400&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 - The Dead Man Test by Ogden Lindsley

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0005796787901136 - A Behavioral Feeding Program for Failure-to-Thrive Infants by Karen L. Larson, Teodoro Ayllon, Drue H. Barrett

QUOTES

08:38 "My OT brain started going okay, I have ruled out all medical issues, so what's next? Then I was like there's got to be a sensory facet to this. This is when I started thinking about interoception."

21:44 "Since receiving and reacting to sensory responses, whether it's intrinsic or extrinsic, a dead man cannot do, therefore all sensory responses would actually be considered a behavior."

34:41 "They cautioned that the use of music alone was not recommended and that the adaptive eating was consequated by food and social attention primarily and while music was to mask the beginning of the feeding cycle, that it wasn't the primary reinforcer."

41:04 "We use terms that are very specific and defined but they also often have a common meaning as well such as another term that behavioral analysts use is punishment which often has a really negative connotation."

42:14 "The key takeaway, it's really about coming up with a sensory behavioral approach to develop a hypothesis. In this case with the baby, an infant who is in failure to thrive."

In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Kimberly Nix Berens; a scientist-educator and Founder of Fit Learning. As she shares her story of how she found her way through Behavior Science and Precision Teaching, Dr. Kim also provides tons of anecdotes from her learning experiences with mentors, the development of Precision Teaching, and her personal encounter with Ogden Lindsley. She speaks of her vision for automation of data to allow the collection of data in classrooms, the challenges faced in Behavior Analysis, and her hopes for the upcoming students in the field.

Dr. Kim has recently published her first book, Blind Spots: Why students fail and the science that can save them.

HIGHLIGHTS

02:29 Dr. Kim's early childhood and upbringing 

11:03 Her mentorship with Maria Ruiz at Rollins College

20:13 Her mentorship with Elbert "Ed" Blakely at Threshold Inc.

33:20 Ogden Lindsley and his views on today's Behavior Analysis

50:11 Automation of data: Dr. Kim's vision for the future of Precision Teaching

53:33 Dr. Kim shares her encounter with Ogden Lindsley

1:00:13 Pragmatism & Science: An advice to Behavior Analysts

1:03:27 Dr. Kim's take on the traditional education & professionalization in ABA  

RESOURCES

You can learn more about Dr. Kim on her website: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com/ 

Visit Fit Learning’s website: https://fitlearners.com/ 

Get a copy of Dr. Kim’s book: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com/blindspots 

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 

QUOTES

13:05 "The second she opened her mouth and introduced us to the behavioral view, I couldn't believe that there was actually a field of science as precise as biology, but with the power to effectively change human behavior in a way that improves the quality of life for all people on the planet."

25:14 "Skinner himself stopped measuring rate when he started moving into looking at academic skills. And the problem is because of the influence on how education does stuff. It's behavior analyst trying to fit our model into an education framework. Somehow, when you think about teaching kids stuff, all of a sudden education becomes the dominant way of thinking about how to do it rather than accelerating behavior is no different than decelerating behavior and it requires the same science."

32:38 "One of the applied areas that aren't stuck is people who do Precision Teaching. The discoveries that we make every single day at Fit Learning are profound and unfortunately, that's not happening in a lot of other areas of Applied Behavior Analysis because no one's using science number one, and no one's using a language of science that allows people to share discoveries in a powerful way so that they can propel the field forward."

1:01:48 "Science gives you the ability to not be dogmatic and self-righteous. Science is inherently humble, skeptical, and never satisfied."

Teaching basic activities of daily living (ADL) to children with autism requires a more involved and understanding approach. This was the case with Sam whose progress in fluency was positively impacted by applying the Big 6 + 6. 

In the beginning, Sam exhibited many errors in component skills but instruction with the Big 6 quickly improved his ability to play and manipulate objects. Teaching these component skills enabled Sam to engage with his environment and practice higher-level skills used in ADL's. 

HIGHLIGHTS

02:09 Shoutout to Abigail B. Calkin

06:01 Sam's development: What didn't work and fluency targets

17:32 The Big 6 + 6: Improving fine and gross motor skills for ADL's 

28:05 Working with Johnny: Introducing awareness of his thumbs 

35:18 Training to fluency: Teaching component skills for higher-level skills 

GLOSSARY

Forward chaining - A data-driven technique that reaches a goal using the available data 

Backward chaining - A goal-driven technique that starts from the last component of the skill and reaches the initial state 

Bilateral integration - The ability to use both sides of the body at the same time which is important in performing ADL's 

The Big 6 + 6 - Six fine motor skills to assist in ADL's, (reach, touch, point, place, grasp, and release) with the plus six (push, pull, shape, squeeze, tap, and twist) which are gross motor skills to assist in manipulating larger objects.

Learning channels - Refers to what sensory input and output a skill is using   

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Inner Behavior: Empirical Investigations of Private Events by Abigail B. Calkin

Abigail B. Calkin's website

The Effects of Fluent Levels of Big 6 + 6 Skill Elements on Functional Motor Skills with Children with Autism by Twarek, Cihon and Eshleman

Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise Book by Anders Ericsson

QUOTES

09:19 "We took baseline data on many of the component skills that look at hand strength and your ability to successfully engage in things like buttoning and shoe-tying and feeding yourself, etc."

18:53 "We started by teaching him the Big 6 and, all of a sudden, it was so exciting, he started manipulating objects and we were able to teach him cause and effect, which then reinforced him playing with things like pushing money into a money box."

27:49 "Pointing is obviously culturally a very important skill to be able to say, even if you can't talk, I see something that's of interest to me that I want to draw your attention to. So pointing is such an important skill within our culture."

31:50 "In free operant instruction, fluency-based instruction, the instruction is given once so the expectation is raised once, and then the learner engages freely in that and gives them a lot of opportunity for a lot of practice without any prompts."

36:16 "If you have identified that this is a component skill of a higher-level skill, you can train the lower-level skill but check the higher-level skill to see if your teaching is showing up in higher-level skills."

Time constraints are making it difficult for behavioral therapists to analyze the data they’ve collected. Bethan's goal is to bring charting to people in order to help them produce an efficient and measurable output.

Bethan Mair Williams has worked as a Speech and Language Therapist in the British public health sector for over 20 years. She has an amazing organization called the British Royal College Clinical Excellence Network for Speech Therapists. In today's episode, Bethan shares a very unique perspective on the ABA and Speech world, especially using Precision Teaching.

HIGHLIGHTS

00:35 Intro to Bethan Mair Williams

06:15 Teaching the methods of charting to classroom assistants: An efficient way in giving kids targeted measurable intervention 

10:04 Benefits of charting for Speech & Language Therapists  

18:07 How Bethan motivates teachers and Speech & Language Pathologists to do charting

25:14 The profound effects of charting to students

37:34 On the dark side of data collection

44:02 Is there still room for qualitative data?

GLOSSARY

SAFMEDS (Say All Fast Minute Every Day Shuffled) -  An assessment procedure that is useful for vocabulary acquisition 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

N/A

QUOTES

09:17 There's this huge push in our profession to take data but nobody teaches us how to do it effectively and efficiently given our time constraints.

14:20 "One of the really useful ways to use a chart is to measure the use of augmentative or alternative communication."

18:53 "You can't just give someone a book or a manual. The most important advice I have ever given when I trained as a speech and language therapist was, do not give the average person anything longer than a piece of paper one side because they will not read it."

27:50 "It is the biggest thrill ever to see that look in a kid's eyes when they're not relying on the adult to tell them all the time what it is to do, they are truly thinking for themselves."

32:45 "Our goal to show people how to measure, how to do it efficiently, and how to make sure that they get their work done as fast as possible so that kids, in particular, can be kids, get outside, play, do lots of fun stuff, and not sit trapped at tables for hours on end."

Taking data vastly improves the performance of both students and teachers alike. ABAs and OTs can determine the best course of action for increasing or reducing behaviors with data to back them up, while students also feel more motivated with their increased awareness. 

Discussed today are the practical reasons for taking data, specific steps you can take to start taking data, and the common barriers to taking good data. Data collection goals between ABAs and OTs may also be different, so Mandy and Aditi break down how they view these goals and how they can achieve them.   

HIGHLIGHTS

03:24 Shoutout to CentralReach Institute

04:20 Evidence-based interventions and why ABAs take so much data

08:49 OT barriers to data collection

11:23 How to begin collecting data 

15:30 OT data collection on goals and strategies to achieve that

25:48 Taking data increases motivation and improves performance  

28:30 Using standardized charts to measure fluency

35:13 Case study: Similarities and differences between ABA and OT goals

GLOSSARY

Dead Person Test - A test that says if a dead person cannot do it, then it is behavior, and if a dead person can do it, it is not behavior. 

RHUMBA - How Relevant is it, How long, Understandable, Measurable, Behavioral, and Achievable

COAST - Client, Occupation, Assist Level, Specific, and Time-bound

SMART - Significant, Measurable, Achievable, Relates to the person, and Time-based

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

Progress Monitoring and Documentation During Virtual School-based OT Service Delivery via Telehealth

CentralReach Institute

Rick Kubina: Using Precision Measurement to Derive Meaningful Performance Metrics and Analytics

Reading with Precision (Precision Teaching Aims)

QUOTES

04:33 "Ethically, we are required and therefore obligated to demonstrate that our interventions are effective and evidence-based and it's absolutely impossible to do that without data."

13:29 "In order to measure something, you must define first what it is that you're teaching or a behavior that you're trying to increase or some behavior that you're trying to reduce."

23:00 "If you use a Standard Celeration chart and you apply how many opportunities the student performed in a period of time, it'll give you a really good trajectory of how long it's going to take to master that goal."

25:48 "The sheer act of taking data with a student improved their performance. I was like oh my gosh because they are so much more aware of their own performance."

29:59 "It's got a fixed X and Y axes and it's always the same. As opposed to what I call a stretch to fill chart where you can alter the X and Y axes to make your data look better than it really is and data on those types of charts are not comparable."

Be prepared for Dr. Kimberly Berens’ extraordinarily important message regarding learning disabilities! 

In the US, 20% of kids are considered to have a learning disability of some kind. Dr. Berens explains in Episode 14 of the podcast that only a tiny fraction of children—less than 1%—have a real neurological impairment. This suggests that more kids are being labeled with learning disabilities that are Explanatory Fictions, as opposed to measuring learning across time and assessing for skill deficits that account for why a child struggles with reading or other learning.

This episode explores the reasons behind children's academic difficulties, the truth behind neuropsychological testing, and the damaging effects that the DSM-5 learning disability labeling of children has.  Dr. Berens explains that labels that children are given are predominantly a result of ineffective instructional environments as opposed to a made up reason for what is occurring in the brain. Most importantly, Dr. Berens explains what we can do to disrupt this vicious cycle and improve children's learning abilities.

She explains that for the majority of children, “school does not work” and why. She makes it clear that she is not blaming teachers, but rather that teachers need explicit training in behavior science and effective teaching practices.

You’ll hear Dr. Berens' real anger at a professional that after testing a student’s performance on one occasion, then makes a profound leap to explain that the reason for the performance is due to something in the brain that cannot be measured, and that there is no scientific support for the label given to the child.  

Dr. Berens then reviews a case study of a student with a Neuropsychological Report versus the type of report that a Precision Teacher would produce, to look at skill deficits a child has to account for their reading challenges, as opposed to a hypothetical construct of why the student performed badly on a test one time.

Dr. Berens is a scientist-educator, a precision teacher, and the founder of Fit Learning. She is also the author of the book, Blind Spots: Why Students Fail... and the Science that Can Save Them.  Her stand is to transform education on the planet through the use of behavior science, and how that science can change the world.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA==

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast

Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com

Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

3:19 The truth behind neuropsychological testing and learning disabilities.

6:11 The types of assessments that neuropsychologists conduct.

8:04 What distinguishes a scientific method from an Explanatory Fiction?

21:48 Common forms of disabilities, backed by neuroscience.

28:21 Why does Dr Berens think school is ineffective?

51:51 The application of behavior science to video game creation.

54:37 Imitation is the main method by which infants learn; it is not a genetic trait.

1:00:17 What can we do to change this vicious cycle?

1:17:41 Scientific illiteracy: The difference between neuroscience and neuropsychology.

1:24:22 A sneak preview of what Dr Berens will discuss at the Annual Conference of the Standard Celeration Society in Denver in November 2022 as the keynote speaker. 

Learn more about Dr. Kimberly Beren’s work: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com

Listen to her podcast episodes: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com/new-page Now to Next with Nanton featuring Kimberly Berens https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/now-to-next-with-nick-nanton-feat-dr-kimberly-berens/id1509498480?i=1000524816542

Transforming Your Child’s Learning Abilities with Kimberly Berens https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/428-transforming-your-childs-learning-ability-with-dr/id1038689970?i=1000576980127

Behavioral Habits with Dr Kimberly Berens

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/dr-kimberly-nix-berens-on-behavioral-habits-how-we/id1093028505?i=1000552098643 

3:40 “Whenever a child is referred for a neuropsychological evaluation, it's based on, more often than not, a teacher's observation of that child in her classroom.”

13:55 “People make a lot of money off of this kind of testing  [neuropsychological] and these kinds of classifications, and schools get funded based on kids having these kinds of classifications, and those people get paid to supposedly treat these kinds for disabilities, but they are not scientifically valid. They've never been validated in a scientific way. They're all hypothetical.”

19:46 “Performance and learning are two profoundly different things. Performance is a measure of a child's behavior at one time. Learning is the measurement of behavior over time. That's the only way learning can be evaluated. It's a process.”

23:02 “Not only do we have data from the United States on the profound ineffectiveness of this, but we have global data from across the globe, schools don't work for the majority of kids.”

25:17 Children learn how to cheat at a young age because, once again, schools do not care about the process. Schools care about the performance on one test, and then they move on.”

32:46 "So we know in behavioral science that learning is best defined as the change in behavior over a period of time.”

1:14:32 “Being a scientist is about telling the truth. Period. It's about finding an objective truth and then telling the truth about what was found.”

Bedtime resistance and frequent night wakings are a source of frustration for many parents. This episode talks about the biggest mistakes parents make in establishing sleep patterns, as well as the Bedtime Pass, an effective intervention designed to address bedtime resistance.

They also discuss the case of Liv and her mum and how they used the Bedtime Pass to modify sleep behaviors. This case was particularly difficult because of the deteriorated relationship between mother and daughter. However, the Bedtime Pass was an effective tool in creating a positive outcome for better sleep and more compliance.

HIGHLIGHTS

01:56 Shoutout to the Association for Science in Autism Treatment (ASAT)

06:21 Mistakes with establishing sleep habits with children  

12:47 Technology, blue light, and its impact on sleep

18:07 The ABC model of behavior 

28:04 The bedtime pass: Explaining the study that established it

32:30 Discussing the case study of Liv

GLOSSARY

Reinforcement - Anything that happens after a behavior that strengthens that behavior or makes it more likely to occur again

Extinction - Removing pleasant consequences that have occurred previously

Extinction burst - The reaction to a stimulus that once produced positive reinforcements, but now ceases to exist

Bedtime Pass - An intervention to address bedtime resistance using a card with the child's name on it that can be redeemed for one thing like a glass of water, hug, or toilet visit.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Association for Science in Autism Treatment (ASAT)

QUOTES

11:11 "If we don't teach kids to fall asleep on their own, they become dependent on some crutch, either parents or something else to assist them to go to sleep. And breaking that habit is extremely difficult."

14:12 "Blue wavelengths, specifically, which are brilliantly beneficial for daylights hours because they keep us alert. They boost our attention, reaction times, mood, etc., they have an equal and opposite effect at night."

22:22 "What all of our hundred years of science reinforces is it's what happens after a behavior or the consequence that determines whether it occurs again."

30:59 "In general, we know that behavior that has been intermittently reinforced is more resistant to extinction."

38:21 "Behavior rehearsal of any intervention that I do is to make sure that the child is practiced and rehearsed and it can be done in a really fun way. And you can do it as a game."

If you were Dr Ogden R. Lindsley’s student, you were either all in or you weren’t, because precision teaching necessitates passion, dedication and an adherence to B.F. Skinner’s discovery of Rate of Response as the primary and most sensitive measure of behavior. 

From the first time Patrick McGreevy heard Ogden speak he was “all in”!

This is Part 1 of the recording of my interview with Dr Patrick McGreevy, or Brother Pat as Og called him. In part 1 he shares how he fell in love with teaching children with severe disabilities, which led him to change his career path from psychology to special education. 

Patrick goes on to share what he learned from Ogden back when he was a doctoral student, his dedication to teaching others and passing on Og’s commitment to the Standard Celeration Chart - precise measurement and closely attending to the learner. He acknowledges all the mentors he’s had along the way - the Long Timers as he calls them - who have been and continue to be all in! 

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno

Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA==

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast

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Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

3:57 Pat switches careers from psychology to special education.

9:55 How he and Ogden met.

14:43 Ogden’s expectations of his students.

27:46 His collaboration with “Dr. Fluency”, Eric Haughton.

37:40 About the Essential for Living assessment.

41:29 Why "percent correct" is not a measurement, and Ogden’s commitment to Rate of Response as the most sensitive measure of behavior.

47:41 Pat's vision for the precision teaching community and the world of standardized measurement.

Patrick Macgreevy’s book: Teaching and Learning in Plain English: An Introduction to Precision Teaching and Precision Tutoring (*Goodreads)

Ogden’s article in the Journal of Precision Teaching: Say Reward, Relief, Punishment or Penalty

Ogden’s book: Skinner on Measurement

Visit Essential for Living’s website.

07:41 “I wasn't particularly interested in teaching children to read. That didn't interest me. I was more interested in teaching daily living skills to kids that couldn't communicate, the kids that couldn't toilet properly, the children that didn't know how to feed themselves, and the children who had orthopaedic impairments. Those were the kids that really interested me.”

32:50 “You have to decide the context in which to teach it because a lot of kids with more severe disabilities don't experience generalization like the rest of us do, so you've got to teach it. You've got to teach the right skills—the skills that matter. You got to teach them into context. You see, and then you have to teach them the fluency. Yeah. And then you have to have the teaching procedures to get you there.”

Sleeping challenges in infants and toddlers, especially those with ASD, can prove debilitating to parents. Mandy and Aditi discuss sleep patterns and disorders and give two perspectives on this complex yet essential aspect of life.

They share their personal experiences with sleep issues and define what sleep is according to sensory and behavior perspectives. Mandy and Aditi also explore how both fields approach interventions, the importance of documentation for effective intervention, and the ways to analyze factors like environment and habituation that influence a child's sleep.

HIGHLIGHTS

01:22 Shoutout to Dr. Patrick Friman

04:12 Personal experiences with sleeping challenges and methods

12:37 Discussing sleep: Two perspectives affected by culture and habituation

41:59 Integrating ABA and OT for sleep disorders

52:44 Differences between ABA and OT sleep interventions

GLOSSARY

Graduated extinction - Using longer and longer periods of time to attend to the child. 

Faded Bedtime Procedure - Pushing back bedtime from baseline measurement and keep the child awake through any means possible for a longer period so they are more likely to go to sleep.

Escape extinction - The discontinuation of negative reinforcement of a behavior.

Sensory diet - The therapeutic use of sensory activity that is embedded in the daily routine.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Behavior Analysts to the Front! A 15-Step Tutorial on Public Speaking by Dr. Patrick C. Friman 

Sleep Assessment and Treatment Tool (SATT) by Dr. Gregory P. Hanley

Brief Infant Sleep Questionnaire (BISQ) by Dr. Avi Sadeh

Applied behavior analysis measurement, assessment, and treatment of sleep and sleep-related problems by Dr. James Luiselli

Occupational Therapy Practice in Sleep Management: A Review of Conceptual Models and Research Evidence by Eris C. M. Ho and Andrew M. H. Siu 

QUOTES

12:56 "Babies sleep an average of 16 hours in 24 hour period and it's reported that between 20 and 30% of children experience sleep problems and 40 to 80% of children with developmental disabilities have sleep disorders."

18:57 "Perhaps the behavior of falling asleep is reinforced by sleep. In other words, what happens before sleep, from a behavior analyst, results in sleep and that component of sleeping is partly operant and the falling asleep is the end of a chain of behavior."

28:00 "As soon as you start reinforcing any behavior that might be either syncing or blocking sensory stimuli, you add a behavioral component as well." 

39:30 "When you add in a bedtime resistance, it can come about by sleep onset delay, and then potentially you have a complex combination of both biological, circadian, and neurodevelopmental factors as well that are influenced but not solely attributable to environment and behavioral variables."

46:32 "Sensory disorders impact sleep differently. Sometimes it might be the routine leading up to bedtime which is dysregulated or perhaps the child is so overstimulated from the day that they can't settle down to go to sleep."

Telehealth consultations have unique problems that are magnified when addressing challenging behaviors in kids. From distraction to motivation to parent training, we discuss the most common problems and tangible tips to improve student engagement.

It is critical to first teach parents the basics of reinforcement for them to follow through with the necessary changes that make virtual consultations effective. Kids act very differently at home so learning how that environment is like is also necessary information for OTs and ABAs who have to maximize the effectiveness of telehealth.

HIGHLIGHTS

01:29 Shoutouts to the OT profession, Autism Awareness Month, and Dr. Jana Cason

07:28 ABA challenges with telehealth

10:27 Case study of Lena: Parent training and motivation

20:45 Strategies to create a motivating environment

27:27 Basic tips for reinforcement 

35:16 Virtual learning, environment, and scheduling 

GLOSSARY

Extinction burst - The phenomenon of a previously reinforced or learned behavior temporarily increasing when the reinforcement for the behavior is removed.

Behavioral momentum - Reinforce easier tasks followed by a harder task and then reinforce the completion of that harder task.

Variable-ratio schedule - A schedule of reinforcement where a response is reinforced after an unpredictable number of responses.

Behavioral contrast - A change in the strength of one response that occurs when the rate of reward of a second response, or of the first response under different conditions, is changed.

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Aditi's Website

Telehealthshare Website

"25 Tips to Increase Student Engagement in Telehealth" Ebook by Dr. Aditi Mehra

QUOTES

12:24 "Begin with parent training because you can put parents in a very, very difficult situation where they're going to strengthen and worsen behaviors because they don't have the skills to take instruction from a therapist over a computer screen."

15:27 "Motivation being something either a process of deprivation, in other words, to make a student more motivated is to deprive them of something that they like or to satiate which makes them less likely to want something."

21:27 "When you create an environment that the deprivation of that thing is contingent to doing a behavior then you can increase somebody's motivation. If they get it for free all of the time, then they're unlikely to want to do anything for it."

28:05 "Reinforcement is a process whereby something that has consistently been provided after behavior, some sort of change in the environment, has resulted either in a behavior increasing or reducing. So we know that consequence is functioning as a reinforcer."

39:24 "The first thing is really assessing that environment, parent interview, asking them what they normally do in that type of occurrence because work refusal over a screen, that's not the only time that student is going to be engaging in work refusal."

Elizabeth Haughton is a highly recognized educational consultant, the Founder of the Haughton Learning Center, and recipient of both the ‘Lifetime Achievement Award’ and the ‘Our Teacher Award’ from the Standard Celeration Society.

Elizabeth spent roughly 5 decades of her life helping children using her research-based methods to improve teaching and learning strategies.

It’s a privilege to have Elizabeth back on the show to talk more about her insightful discoveries and learning methods. In this episode, we’ll dive into understanding what pinpointing is and how essential it is in precision teaching as she talks about how she used this method to clearly describe students’ behaviors and developed practice plans to help them.

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425  

Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno 

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1:53 Understanding what pinpointing is.

11:26 Important parts or elements to describe what you are observing and recording.

14:00 An example of what a learning statement might be.

26:45 Examples and non-examples of pinpoints

33:57 How Elizabeth establishes a practice plan for a kid.

40:05 How to use countoons to describe a behavior.

56:40 How they discovered the Learning Channels using the Performance Matrix by Eric Haughton.

58:32 Combining channels to practice and find out more effective ways.

1:00 Kid’s struggle with the Think channel and strategies to overcome them.

Learn more about the Haughton Learning Center on Elizabeth’s website: https://haughtonlearningcenter.com/

Learn more about foundation skills and applications at http://www.fluency.org

Fluency and Remembering by Carl Binder: http://haughtonlearningcenter.com/carls_article.html 

Check out Eric Haughton’s Performance Matrix / Planning Matrix: http://binde1.verio.com/wb_fluency.org/Unpublished/Haughton1980b.pdf

16:28 “Studying channels is a lot for some people, it confuses them but I think if they understand that there's about seven intake channels, and there's hundreds of outputs but those two things are important for the pinpoint.”

23:59 “Do it yourself. Do it with a student if you're working with a complicated student.”

32:34 “No matter how much I pinpointed, the key to Terry Harris's success, besides us knowing the chart and the pinpoints and the things in precision teaching is practice.”

52:04 “Being as clear as we can about that movement cycle or the skills description and then multi-channeling it, rather than get uptight, people need to have fun with it.”

1:04:00 “A scientist is exploring all the time. We all need to be scientists and explore and use our observations to see what's there. I mean, we know so much he but we still have so much to learn.”

Mandy and Aditi continue to examine Sam, a 9-year old client with autism with aggressive behavior. As OT's and ABA's have different assessment tools for fine motor development, this episode explores the goals and methodologies they use to improve Sam's fine motor skills.  

ABA tests range from handwriting and the grip and pinch strength test while OT assessments use examples like the Silly Bug, the Superman extension pose, and core strength. These assess behavioral fluency and aims which are reflected in competent performance and higher-level skills.  

HIGHLIGHTS

02:52 Shoutout to Elizabeth Haughton

07:09 Sam's case study: ABA assessment goals and tools

17:10 OT assessment goals and tools for fine motor development

31:58 Importance of Aims and fluency

GLOSSARY

Grip and pinch strength - A baseline assessment tool used for baseline data for intervention 

Dynamometer grip and pinch strengthening tools - Tools that measure how hard a child can squeeze and pinch

Behavioral fluency - The fluid combination of accuracy plus speed that characterizes competent performance 

Adduction - Showing up in novel skills that you have never trained before 

RESA - Retention, Endurance, Stability, and Application 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Dr. Aditi the OT website

Handgrip Strength: A Population-Based Study of Norms and Age Trajectories for 3- to 17-Year-Olds

Behavioral fluency: Evolution of a new paradigm

QUOTES

12:35 "The first part of our assessment was putting a pencil down and picking it up because that is a component of fluent handwriting is being able to reach out for a pencil and pick it up very easily without having to think about adjusting."

17:55 "For fine motor, the Bart's really good, but also I would do strengthening. I would look at his strength and range of motion. And most OT's know about strengthening tools but a lot don't use the measurement tool because we typically don't take baseline data."

25:25 "First, I would assess flexion, and this is called, you probably did this with Sam, the Silly Bug. So the child lies on their back, cross their arms over their chest, legs are bent, head lifted off the floor, and they have to keep this sort of crunchy, silly bug position."

35:07 "A count per minute by skill that, over time, we have worked out that when the skill is taught to that rate like a count per minute, you have that skill and you never lose it, or you get it back with just a little bit of practice."

39:46 "We want kids being able to form between 80 and 100 letters per minute so that when they come spell word, they're not thinking about how to form their A or Z, whether they're doing their Z backwards or not. So that's why aims is so important."

43:39 "If you want a child to do something easy and effortlessly, look at what fluent performance is for that skill and measure it."

This is Part 2 of Patrick McGreevy's ABA & PT Podcast interview.

In this episode, we'll learn more about how the standard celeration chart works and how a slight difference in its size can cause the frequency multiplier to be distorted. Patrick emphasizes the benefits of using frequency data over percentage correct, among other things. He also recalls the final moments of Ogden's life.

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0:36 Pat goes on to discuss how he came to understand and appreciate Ogden's mission.

6:58 The scientific community's reluctance to use a standard celeration chart is explained. 

10:39 Data's power: Frequency versus percent correct

25:26 The rationale behind why tolerating errors is viewed as a teaching opportunity. 

28:26 Renaming the Y axis on the chart: Purpose and application.

34:00 Why does the correct size of the chart matter? 

40:05 Pat reminisces about Og’s final moments.

47:43 About the upcoming new version of his book, Essential for Living. 

52:39 Without hesitation: Pat defines the first opportunity probe. 

1:01:19 Pat gives emphasis on frequency. 

1:07:38 How long-timers like himself help the younger generation have a sense of connection.

Learn about Journal of applied behavior analysis

Check out Patrick’s book, Essential for Living (*Amazon affiliate link)

05:57 "Science doesn't progress without standard measurement. You can't decide to measure things however you want to in whatever unit you want to. That has to be accepted by the scientific community. "

11:18 "You see, if you don't include those elements [occurrence of behaviour and time], then anything that you purport to be measurement is less sensitive to changes than it would be if you had included those elements."

16:21 "That is how a chart shows up, that you can immediately come in contact with the learning of that student because of how much information that our chat conveys. It's phenomenal."

18:22 "It's important to remember that when you go to percent, you lose fluency."

24:29 "There are certain things that you can practice over and over again for a minute or 30 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever, but certain things just aren't feasible."

Michael Maloney is a researcher and educator with over 50 years of combined experience in both private and public schools. Together with his colleague, Eric Haughton, he integrated behavior analysis, direct instruction, and precision teaching into a highly effective learning approach. 

Michael takes us on a journey through his life, from being fired for disrupting the learning system at the school where he worked to meeting remarkable individuals that contributed to his incredible work.

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425  

Check out the podcast on your favourite platform!

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 

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Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast 

HIGHLIGHTS

00:01:24 Michael’s childhood and why he decided to become the first teacher in the family.

00:05:07 His educational background.

00:12:40 Why he got kicked out of school and what he did after.

00:17:39 Combining instruction and precision teaching with Eric Haughton.

00:28:35 Integrating behaviour analysis, direct instruction, and precision teaching.

00:32:34 Why are teachers hesitant to use his method?

00:42:55 Installing the program on computers to help 20,000 kids.

00:53:19 How he influenced the Morningside Center’s program.

1:00:21 Why is the discipline not growing?

1:05:02 How Carmen Marcy reduced the recidivism rate.

1:24:19 How did our field get to the point where we've lost touch with some of our most effective tools?

The Maloney Method: https://www.maloneymethod.com 

Learn more about The Good Behaviour Clock by Edward S. Kubany: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0005791671900553

The Fluency Factory: https://www.fluencyfactory.com

QUOTES

31:07 “You're not going to get fired if a third of these kids don't learn to read this year. In fact, you're going to get rewarded, you're going to get another contract, you're going to get another year of pension, you're going to get a raise, you're going to get two months off in the summer. There's just no accountability in the system and it doesn't start and end with the teachers. It goes all the way to the top.”

33:16 “You can barely find an educational institution that teaches the chart, or that teaches direct instruction, or for that matter, even does a good job of teaching behaviour analysis. I mean, I see these graduates, so they got master's degrees and their BCBAs and 28% of them ever use either direct instruction or precision teaching.”

1:01:21 “Essentially, until we can do things that people don't have to go sit and listen to somebody and get involved in what I call drive-by consulting, there's no accountability.”

1:02:49 “If you gave the teachers the opportunity to learn these skills, which they've never had, they would do a much better job. If they learn direct instruction only, they do a good job. If they paired that with precision teaching, they do an excellent job.”

Evidence-based practice can be a touchy subject for ABAs and OTs alike. Dr. Josh Pritchard of the Lodestone Academy shares his insights on collaboration and the strengths and weaknesses of single-case design versus group-case design.

Dr. Pritchard discusses the groundbreaking study that put standards in place for sensory integrations for children with ASD. He further provides ways that ABAs and OTs can improve their collaboration by using measurements to determine the effectiveness of their interventions.

HIGHLIGHTS

01:50 Introducing Dr. Josh Pritchard

08:54 Research and OT strategies: Challenges to collaboration 

17:19 Evidence-based practice: Single case design vs group design

29:57 The Bedtime Pass

33:51 Discussing the study "Effectiveness of Sensory Integration Interventions in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorders"

38:49 Insights for OTs and measuring the effectiveness of their interventions

GLOSSARY

Single case design - Takes a single unit, many times a single person, or a setting or small group of people but treated as a unit, and use that unit as its own control, and involves repeated measures, and manipulation of a single, independent variable in specific patterns.

Group case design - Uses the same kind of control but using averages of the measurement across each group and compares using statistical analysis. The goal is to find statistical significance. 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Fit Learning Website 

Fit Learning Australia

Effectiveness of Sensory Integration Interventions in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorders: A Pilot Study 

QUOTES

20:36 "In single case, you control that by only changing one thing at a time and changing it in specific patterns to eliminate or minimize randomness or confound." 

20:47 "In a group design, you do the same kind of control but the way you control is you take averages of the measurement across each group, and then you compare those and you use statistical analysis."

22:20 "We are an inductive approach so that's sort of bottom-up. We want to gather lots of data and look at it and discover patterns versus a hypothetical deductive approach, which is sort of top-down, come up with a theory and then try to just prove it. And if you can't disprove it, then it's good."

27:24 "The single-case design is good for the development, refinement, make more efficient a technology and then you can extrapolate that. I think this'll work for many. The group-design actually is good for telling the effectiveness and does it, in fact, work for most people."

43:17 "The challenge to the behavior analyst and the value of the OT, there's some stuff we want to change in life that's got the je ne sais quoi of, I can't say what that is but I can say when it's happening or not. And we got to dive in and what is that?"

In this episode, we take a quick side step from ABA to talk about one of the most hotly debated issues in the US right now and one that Precision Teacher Abigail Calkin writes about in her book, The Carolyne Letters; A Story of Birth, Abortion, and Adoption .

In this episode, Abigail poses questions and talks about the complexities of pregnancy and parenthood and the impact those complexities have on family units.

Abigail Calkin, a published author and a precision teacher, will shed some light on the choices each woman faces when she becomes pregnant. In her book, Abigail explores the three choices a young mother,Amelia, faced. 

The book is divided into three sections, and in each section, Amelia, the young mother in the narrative, writes letters to the three Carolynes in the story explaining her choices.

Abigail also discusses how she used the celeration chart while she was pregnant to count fetal movements, and a whole lot more!

I hope you enjoy this wonderful author talking about The Carolyne Letters. 

Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast

3:20 The inspiration behind the book, The Carolyne Letters.

8:24 Abigail introduces Amelia and Carolyne, the main characters in the book.

9:59 Should you keep the baby if you knew they would likely die soon or have severe disabilities?

12:37 The court’s ruling on a minor’s request for permission to have an abortion.

16:10 Why a lot of young women become pregnant after losing a loved one.

19:22 Advantages of programs that teach teenagers how to be parents.

25:53 The growing US trend of men getting vasectomy procedures while women get their tubes tied.

33:44 A summary of the book's sections.

44:38 How Abigail's experience becoming a mother affected the way she wrote the book.

49:12 The viewpoint of a woman who has experienced both legal and illegal abortion, as well as the current movement to make abortion illegal.

1:02:27 Counting fetal kicks using the standard celeration chart.

1:31:46 Abigail got a job at the University of Oregon after not getting a contract renewal because of pregnancy

1:38:19 Why do some people love precise instruction and stick with it, while others don't? 

1:47:53 How she tallies the data on charts at the start of the day.

The Carolyne Letters: A Story of Birth, Abortion and Adoption by Abigail Calkin (*Amazon affiliate link)

Abigail’s website - www.abigailbcalkin.com

49:17 “It's interesting to me to have lived in the times of illegal abortion, legal abortion, and now we're moving into illegal abortion. And frankly, I don't think that's going to work.”

55:09 “The issue is not pregnancy. The issue is [that] society is changing, and it's changing dramatically.”

58:14 “We're only one race, it is the human race.”

59:15 “Our whole worldwide culture is changing.”

59:56 “Choice is there, and you can choose to have a child—keep the child and give the child up for adoption, or have an abortion.”

1:00:00 “If abortion is illegal, there is no choice. There's only one option. And you have to go with that option. And to me, that's not what a democracy or Republicans are about.”

Shoe tying is particularly tricky to teach to kids who are on the spectrum. This episode shares strategies to overcome obstacles in teaching this ADL, as well as adaptations you can use with students.   

Mandy and Aditi share the various component skills needed for shoe tying and the effectiveness of using precision teaching, tag teaching for instructing without distracting, and video modeling.   

HIGHLIGHTS

01:48 Shoutout to the Complete Anatomy App

03:33 Recap on Sam's fine motor, fluency, foundation skills

08:59 OT and ABA perspectives: Prerequisites and strategies for shoe tying

23:09 Teaching component skills of shoe tying

33:13 Tag teaching: Extremely useful for shoe tying and much more

37:53 Video modeling: A case-specific medium for tighter delivery controls

GLOSSARY

TAG (Teaching with Acoustical Guidance) - TAGteach is a teaching and training technology based on the application of the science of behavior that focuses on the structured application of positive reinforcement. 

RESOURCES

Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:

Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425

EXTERNAL RESOURCES

Complete Anatomy App Android Download

Complete Anatomy App Apple Download

Clicker Training by Karen Pryor

Association for Science in Autism Treatment (ASAT)

QUOTES

13:05 "This signal is a very distinct cue to say this is where you need to look right now. And then, when you are instructing them around the shoe, the pencil or signal goes down to the shoe and go this is where your eyes need to be right now."

21:14 "Incorporating that fluency piece made a world of difference because for that 10 minutes what we would do I would tell them, alright, Johnny, you've got 10 trials. I want you to get through 10 of step 1 and then you get to play with Playdoh, whatever, and he was so motivated."

29:41 "Actually, kids love it because you can set them a personal best, right? And say, last time you did this 10 times and if you do this 11 times this time, you get a token or clicks or a break. So that was step 1 and 2."

35:51 "You can use it for anything where you don't want to stop instruction and go, oh I love the way you said that. You just go tag and they know that they got it right. So there's a million uses for tag teaching but particularly with shoe tying it is awesome."

38:17 "Video modeling is effective because it allows more tighter control over the delivery of instruction. What did they call it, antecedent instructional prompting, and then videos can obviously be produced, edited, re-edited, based on what they need."