Erratic weather like deluge rain, longer falls, and patches of drought disrupt vinifera’s adaptation to long-sustained winters. Jason Londo, Associate Professor of Horticulture in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell AgriTech explains how big weather changes in the Pacific North East can cause vines to wake up earlier posing a risk to freeze or frost damage. By researching acclimation and deacclimation, Jason is working to breed and select varieties for enhanced cold resistance, drought resistance, pest resistance, plus good fruit quality. In the future, to reduce inputs in vineyards and increase economic sustainability we need to put the right grape in the right climate. 

Resources:        

• 135: Cold Hardiness of Grapevines
• Cold Hardiness prediction model and monitoring website for the Eastern US
• Foliar Applied Abscisic Acid Increases ‘Chardonnay’ Grapevine Bud Freezing Tolerance during Autumn Cold Acclimation
• Jason Londo
• Jason Londo’s Recent Publications
• Vitis Underground: NSF-PGRP project looking at rootstock-scion interaction across multiple environments.

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Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Jason Londo. He is Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. We're gonna talk about some pretty cool stuff today. Thanks for coming on the show. Jason,

 

Jason Londo  0:11 

Thank you for having me.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:12 

Your work tends to center around identifying things like climate induced disorders, developing medication methods, improving resiliency and sustainability of crops like apples and grapes. How did you become interested in that that's a pretty interesting area.

 

Unknown Speaker  0:26 

Originally, I was mostly interested in how plants adapt to stress just in general plants, because they're stuck to the ground that the seed lands on they are forced with so many complicated life's challenges, that it's really amazing what a plant can do in the face of stress. And so my curiosity has always been trying to figure out those strategies. But climate induced part of it is sort of reality striking into my passion, right? We know the climate is shifting, and it is shifting those stresses in a way that our plants can't necessarily respond in the same way that they used to, particularly because of the rate of climate change. So that's how I got interested in this topic, just trying to figure out how plants work when they're stressed out.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:13 

And you're interested in plants in general. And then now you're focusing on specific crops, right?

 

Jason Londo  1:18 

Yes, indeed, I started out originally working on endangered mints. If you can imagine that. Then I worked on rice. Then I worked on canola and I landed and fruit crops. And so yeah, lots of lots of diversity in those systems. All those plants have different stresses.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:35 

They're all different families. I mean, he really jumped around.

 

Jason Londo  1:37 

Oh, yeah. One of the coolest things about working in plant stress is plants across different clades evolved different ways of handling maybe the same stress. And you can learn a lot about sort of the limitations of stress response and the advantages and opportunities when you work across a lot of different systems. And so it makes for a tricky CV, because my publications kind of snake all over the place. But from trying to figure out the next strategy or figure out the next experiment, I feel like it's a real positive to have that background.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:13 

I want to go back for a second because I think this is an important topic. And you mentioned clade. What is a clade? And how does that apply to looking at plant stress?

 

Jason Londo  2:24 

And its most basic a clade is a group of plants that belong to the same sort of evolutionary history, and without getting into the real jargony. And the fights between what makes a species and what doesn't make a species. The basic concept is an evolutionary group. And so when I talk about plant stress strategies and differences between clades if we think about rice, it's a monocot. And so it has a completely different evolutionary lineage from most of our dicot fruit crops. Canola is a dicot it's a mustard. Both rice and canola are typically annualized, maybe sometimes there's a perennial version, when we talk about fruit crops, we're talking about, in my case, grapes and apples, Woody perennials, so dicot species that persists for many, many years. And so the strategies that are successful for for getting through a stressful situation can vary very much by those different life histories.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:24 

We're kind of talking about stresses in general, what are particular stresses on things like apples and grapes that you're looking at.

 

Jason Londo  3:29 

So in my program, it has a climate adaptation focus. And we all know that the main drivers behind climate change are temperature and precipitation. And here in the northeast, we do have a benefit in that we've got some room to get warm before it gets uncomfortable. And we have plenty of rain. But what we're seeing here is big changes in our winter weather shifts in our phonology. So the spring is coming earlier, the fall is coming later. And then we're also having big changes in precipitation. So little patches of drought, deluge, rain, and so very different from California, where things may be drying out. We're drying out, but in a very episodic sort of pattern. And the systems here are not built on drought management. They're not built so much on water logging either, although we do use tiling in the fields to Drain off excess water. And so when we're talking about climate impacts, here are primarily talking about temperature and shifts in precipitation.

 

 I know that you've been looking at cold hardiness. What has been the pattern? What's the change that's happening in the Northeast as far as cold goes?

 

Yeah, so most of my career, as a as a PI has been in cold hardiness and cold stress response in grapes. I spent 10 years at the USDA as a geneticist, particularly diving into this topic, and even in those 10 years years I've seen a major shift in the intensity of our winters they are getting much more mild, but they're also coming very erratic. And so we're having large swings in temperature. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the concept of a polar vortex we've had enough of them. Now, that is pretty common. When you take a perennial crops like grape, and you put it through winter, it's it's adapted to a long, sustained winter, not a real chaotic, episodic type winter where it gets warm and cold and warm than cold. The the complex molecular components of what tells the grape that it's safe to wake up don't function as well when you have those erratic temperatures. And so we're seeing, in general more mild, which is good for baseline cold hardiness, but also an uptick in sort of chaos. And that's not good for for any form of cold hardiness. And it particularly affects late winter, because the the plants wake up. As they're coming into spring, they respond to heat. And when you have weird weather in that really late winter, early spring, they can wake up too early and then suffer a lot of freeze damage or frost damage if they happen to break bud.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:11 

What is the mechanism around freeze damage? I've interviewed some folks from like Michigan and Iowa and Ohio, we don't have freeze damage in California very much Washington, obviously. What are the parameters there? How cold for how long? And what's the actual mechanism of damage to the volume?

 

Jason Londo  6:29 

Yeah, great questions. Very complicated questions.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:35 

That's why we're here.

 

Jason Londo  6:35 

Yeah, yeah. All grapes gain cold hardiness in the winter, regardless of where they are, it's a part of going dormant and making it through winter. The biggest changes that we see in the vine is that the buds will isolate from the vasculature. And so the little connections that come from the xylem and the phloem, into the bud, they actually get clogged up with pectins. And so you have to think of the bud is sort of like a little island tissue, it's not connected to the cane during winter. Once the bud does that it's able to gain cold hardiness and traverse winter. And that process is called acclamation. And so the buds gain a greater and greater ability to survive lower and lower temperatures. We don't know exactly how all of it works. But it's a mixture of making more sugars and making more Ozma protectant inside the buds so that water freezes at lower temperatures and also controlled dehydration. So the more you can dehydrate a tissue, the less likely ice crystals will form in pure water. But and we don't know how they do this. And it's quite magical if you think about it, but they're able to suck out all of this internal water so that it is less and less likely for water to freeze inside the cell. If they can keep the ice crystals from forming inside the cell. We call that cold hardiness that they they are surviving freeze damage, we can measure the temperature that reaches that defense. And you've had other speakers on your show that have talked about cold hardiness. It's called differential thermal analysis. And we basically measure the precise temperature where the water freezes through some tricks of thermodynamics, that cold hardiness failure point changes throughout the whole winter, and it changes by the location that the grape is growing in. What we do know about the system is that it takes oscillating temperatures to gain cold hardiness. So it has to get warm than cold warm than cold, warm than cold and progressively colder in order to ramp down and gain cold hardiness, then it has to stay cold for the cold hardiness to sort of hang out at the maximum cold hardiness. And that maximum cold heartedness is going to differ by region. So here in New York, something like Chardonnay will reach a maximum cold hardiness of maybe negative 27 Celsius. I cannot do the Fahrenheit conversion,.

 

Craig Macmillan  9:00 

That's fine. That's fine.

 

Jason Londo  9:03 

But say, say negative 27 Fahrenheit, whereas in California, it may not gain more than negative 20. And that's because it just doesn't get pushed. As you go through winter. You go through a whole bunch of other stuff with dormancy chilling our requirement, and that changes the way that the bud responds to temperature. And you enter a phase called Eco dormancy, which is now resistance to freezing based on how cold the vineyard is. And so when you get warm spikes in late winter, when the buds are eco dormant. They think those are a little preview that it's springtime and so they lose their cold heartedness really quickly they start reabsorbing that water, and they'll freeze that warmer and warmer temperatures. And so that's really the most dangerous time in this sort of climate chaos. When you think about winter that late winter period is when the vines are reacting with their adaptive complex for 1000s of years. When it started to warm up. It meant it was spring and now they're starting To think, okay, spring is coming. But we're still in February in New York, maybe in. In California. It's more like it's January and you're getting a warming event. And they all move right towards bud break. And then of course, they can get hit pretty hard by a leak freeze or a frost.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:15 

Yeah, exactly. I'm guessing this varies by variety.

 

Jason Londo  10:19 

Yes, very much. So, vinifera varieties are typically less hardy than the North American adapted varieties, the, the hybrid varieties is often gets used. I don't particularly like the word hybrid. But these cold climate grapes that have been bred by University of Minnesota and Cornell, they tend to have greater maximum cold hardiness. But they also tend to wake up in the spring much faster. And that's partly because of the genetic background that those hybrids were made from. When you breed with species that come from the far north, like Vitis riparia, those species are adapted to a very short growing season, which means as soon as it's warm enough to start growing, they go for it to try to get through their entire cycle. So now we're starting to see that there are some potential issues with climate change when we think about hybrid varieties that use those those northern species, and that they may be more prone to frost damage in the future.

 

Craig Macmillan  11:15 

Oh, really, that's I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought the opposite. So obviously, we have different species. So we have some genetic differences between what I'll call wild grapes or native grapes, the Oh, invasive plant itis vinifera that has been  thrown around. What can we learn by looking at the genetics of native North American varieties?

 

Jason Londo  11:38 

from a cold hardiness perspective,

 

Craig Macmillan  11:40 

cold hardness, just in general drought resistance, pest resistance?

 

Jason Londo  11:44 

Well, in general, they're a massive resource for improvement, which depends on who is who's calling a species species. But there may be up to 20 Different wild species in North America. And each of those wild species has a different evolutionary trajectory that has given it the ability to create adaptive gene complexes, that could be useful in viticulture, as we have shifting climate, away from what maybe vinifera likes, hot and dry into further northern latitudes, you know, that if the California industry has to start moving up in latitude or up in altitude, we start integrating different stresses that maybe those vines haven't been exposed to in their evolutionary history, you know, from Europe. And so these wild species just have these potentially novel genes, potentially novel pathways where genes are interacting with one another, that give vines a greater plasticity. And so this concept of plasticity is if you take an individual and you put it in environment a, and it grows to size 10, but you put it in environment B and it grows to size 20. The difference there is the plasticity between those two environments. And we really, if we want sustainable viticulture, what we want to encourage is using cultivars that have maximal plasticity. So as the environment shifts around them, they're still able to give you the same yield the same sugars, the same quality, you know, within a within an error bar anyway, they're the most resilient over time. And incorporating traits and pathways that come from wild grapes can help build that plasticity in the genetic background coming from the European great.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:23 

So we're talking about crosses, we're talking about taking a native plant and then vinifera crossing to create something new. You had said that you don't know you don't care for the word hybrid. Why not? That's interesting to me.

 

Jason Londo  13:35 

Because it has a negative connotation in the wine drinker. realm, right people think of hybrids as lower quality as not vinifera, so lesser. And I think I'm not an enologists. I'm not a viticulturalists. So I want to be careful on whose toes I mash. But if we're talking about sustainability of a crop through an erratic climate, we can do a lot with vinifera we can we can mitigate climate change a lot with vinifera, but at some point, the inputs may become too much to make it a sustainable crop and then we need to be able to move to adapted varieties. And we can adapt the wine quality from vinifera to climate chaos, by breeding and and selecting for enhanced cold resistance, enhanced drought resistance, enhance pest resistance, and good fruit quality. That's a little bit of a soapbox. But when people say hybrid, it's like lesser, but it's, in my opinion, it's more we're taking something great. And we are increasing its plasticity across the the country across the growing zones. We are giving it a chance to grow in more regions reach more local communities create a bigger fan base. So I get really my hackles got up because there is amazing hybrid based on Climate adapted based wines, and winemakers. And when we use the word hybrid people just automatically in their mind shifted into lesser. And I think that's unfortunate. I think it's something that we need to work actively as an industry against, because a lot of those particular disease resistance traits are coming from wild germ plasm. That is not in the European grape. And we just can't solve all our problems with that one species.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:30 

So the kinds of traits that we're talking about these environmental adaptations, or acclamations, these will be polygenic trades, how do you find these? I'm assuming that you're looking for those specific genetic information to say, Yeah, this is the plant that I want to use in my my breeding program. What does that look like? How do you do that?

 

Jason Londo  15:49 

So the approaches are very similar to when you're working on single locus traits. And so disease resistance and fruit color are good examples of traits that often can be found in single locus examples, again, would be fruit color, or sort of run one disease resistance, there's a whole bunch of different disease resistance was like polygenic traits can be found the same way, you have to make a cross between two different grapes that have different phenotypes. And so that might be a drug sensitive, and a drought tolerant individual. And you plant out a whole lot of baby grapes 200, 300 progeny from that cross, and then you score them with phenotypes. And with polygenic traits, it's a lot harder to find them sometimes, because in that group of, say, 300, babies, you're not looking for the movement of one gene. In that background, you're looking for maybe the movement of five to 10 different genes. And that means instead of getting a light switch kind of trait, red or white fruit, you're getting a little bit more drought resistant, a whole lot more drought resistant, but there is a gradient, right? When you have a gradient for a phenotype, you need a lot more grape babies in order to get the statistical support to say, hey, this piece of the genome right here, this makes a grape, a little bit more drought resistant. And over here, this piece of the genome does the same thing. And when you put them together, they either add up one plus one, or sometimes they multiply two times two, you use the same approaches, it's typically a little trickier. And you got to kind of do a couple extra years of screening. But it's the same basic playbook to track down those different traits. And we have to do a lot of different phenotypes for drought response, you might be looking for the ability to root deeper, have bigger root masses, you might be looking at bigger hydraulic conductance in the trunk, you might be looking at betters to model control. You might be looking at pyres to model density or lowers to model density, you could be looking at thicker or thinner leaves. So you can imagine if there's lots of ways to be more drought resistant. There's lots of genes that help you in that pursuit. You need a lot of baby grapes in order to find all those little pockets where those genes come together and give you a statistical shift and in the phenotype.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:10 

So you're able to identify these are you using something like qualitative trait?

 

Jason Londo  18:13 

Exactly. Quantitative trait loci?

 

Craig Macmillan  18:16 

Yes, exactly. So that helps speed the process up a little bit. Maybe.

 

Unknown Speaker  18:20 

Yeah, so so QTL mapping, quantitative trait loci mapping is the probably the dominant way that we map traits. There's another way called GWAS, genome wide association studies, is built on the same concept where you have a big enough population of either grape babies or in the case of GWAS its diversity. So you'd say, let's say you had 200 Different Vitis riparias instead of 200. Babies, the principle is the same. You are looking for across all of those vines, statistical association between a specific part of the genome and a phenotype to like make it really simple. In 200 babies, grape babies, you want to have enhanced drought resistance. You let's say we take a measurement of carbon isotope concentration and so that carbon isotopes tell you how often the stomates are open, right? So you do an experiment. And you drought stress your plants, and you use carbon isotopes as the phenotype and you say, Okay, this group of 75 individuals, they all shut their stomates right away, and this other group of 125, they kept their stomates open. So then in those two groups, you look at all the genetic markers that are in the background, right, which are like little signposts across the genome. And you say, in this group of 75, which genetic markers do we see over and over and over again, outside of statistical randomness, right? And what that will give you a peek a QTL peak, if you're lucky, right, I'll give you a cue to help you can say hey, right here on chromosome four, every single baby in that pool has a has this set of markers, these five Mark occurs. So there must be a gene, somewhere near these five markers that contribute to closing your stomates. And so then extrapolate that out whatever trait you want to look at how whatever phenotype method you're using, maybe it's not carbon isotope, maybe it's leaf mass, maybe it's node number, I don't know, whatever that screening process is, the concept is the same. You have big enough population, a good genetic marker background, and a phenotype that you can measure. And you can find the statistical associations.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:32 

And actually, that reminds me of something, how many chromosomes do grapes have?

 

Jason Londo  20:36 

Well, bunch grapes have 19 muscadine\. grapes have 20.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:39 

That's a lot. Which means that there's a lot of genetic variation in the genome of these plants, then.

 

Jason Londo  20:47 

Yeah, if you think about, I mean, grape is sort of a funky beast, because a lot of these varieties that we grow, they're all They're all of the arrays, we grow our clonal. And some of them are 1000s of years old, the same genetic individual from 7000 to 10,000 years ago, we still have around today, in that process, it's it's changed, right? There's mutations that happen in the field all the time. And so even thinking about genetic clones and thinking the idea of Chardonnay being around that long, it's changed in those 7000 years, just naturally. So when you think about comparing two different clones, or two different cultivars, or clones, there's something like 43,000 Different recognized genes in vitis vinifera, that number I can give you in the different wild species, because it varies by species, but roughly 40,000 at those 40,000 genes in a in a single individual, you can have up to two different copies, right. So you could have essentially 80,000 different alleles, then you go across, I don't know, what do we have 12,000 recognized cultivars or something like that? There are something like 60 Grape species. And so now imagine the amount of potential variation you have across that entire gene pool. And so yeah, the genetic diversity within the crop as a whole is incredible. There's a lot of room for improvement. And there's a lot of room for climate adaptation. Just takes a lot of grape babies to figure it out.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:12 

And that brings us something else. And that is the the idea of mutation. One of the issues, I think that is a stumbling block, and you mentioned it, there is the consumer, if it's not Cabernet Sauvignon, can't call it Cabernet Sauvignon. I'm not as interesting, which is something that I think we need some help from the marketing world with. Because I agree with you very much. I think if we're going to have wine in the future, we're going to have to start thinking about things other than just the cultivars that we have. Now, can you do the same kind of work with but mutation? Can you take a cane grew from a button, plant that out and look for differences between the same plant?

 

Jason Londo  22:53 

Yeah, so you're basically talking about clonal selection clonal selection is practice worldwide by different regions, always with this eye towards making something that we currently have a little bit better or a little bit more unique, right, somatic mutations, random mutations occur in the genetic background all the time. And they often occur in response to stress, which is a really interesting angle, if you think about climate stress. So these mutations happen all the time in the background. Frequently, they will land on pieces of DNA that don't do anything that we know up. I don't want to say that no DNA is unimportant, that there are sections that we don't believe are that important. We call these non coding regions are sometimes introns. When you have a mutation in that area, sometimes there's no effect on the vine at all. And that's happening all the time in the fields. Right now. If you think about all the 1000s to millions of cab sauv vines that are growing in the world, we like to think of them even if you pick a single clone as the same genetic individual. And that is, that's simply not possible. There's so much background mutation going on in those parts of the DNA that don't give us any change in phenotype. There's no way it's all the same. We'd like to simplify it. We'd like to simplify it for our drinking behavior, as well as you know, like our sanity. But yes, you can select for clonal variation. And clonal variation happens all the time when those changes happen to land in a gene producing region, exon or perhaps a promoter or, or even in a transposable element to make a piece of DNA jump around the genome, we get a new clone, you can purposely create clones as well. So it happens naturally, but you can create clones on your own and mutational breeding is something that gets used in a lot of crop species in grapes it doesn't get used as often because it's modifying the base plant, right? So if you take Chardonnay and you want to increase his disease resistance, if it doesn't have a gene that you can break or change that would give it more disease resistance, then you can't create a clone with more disease resistance, right? You're working with a big a base plant that has limitations, but we have So we have a population where this was done it was it was done actually by the USDA by Dr. Amanda Garis. She no longer works for the USDA, but she worked here in Geneva. And they did a project where they took the variety of vignoles, which has a very compact cluster and tends to get a lot of rot. And they took a bunch of dormant canes with the buds, and they put it in a high powered X ray machine at the hospital and blasted it with X rays. What X ray damage does to DNA is it causes breaks between the double strands so all of our DNA and all our genes are wrapped up in in double stranded DNA. And when you do DNA damage with X ray mutagenesis, you break the two strands. And then when they heal themselves back together, it's often imperfect. And so they'll often lose a couple base pairs like there'll be a little piece get that gets nipped out. When you put those two pieces back together and repair, if that landed in exon, you can sometimes change the protein that would have been made by that exon or completely knocked the gene out in its entirety. Creating a clone, you're just doing it faster than nature is doing it on its own. We do it with a hospital X ray machine. And so with this method, they created about 1000 clones of vignoles. And they've made I think 10 selections out of that group that have bigger, looser clusters, so the berries are further spaced out. So they don't get damaged, they don't get as much rot. And I think those are now starting to make their way out into trials. There's an example of a very directed approach to creating a clone to fit fit a very specific viticultural problem that may or may not work for climate adaptation because of the polygenic aspect that you brought up before. Because if you break one gene and a poly genic, adaptive complex, it may not be enough to shift the entire physiology into a recognizably different pattern, it could work to make them less resilient, because you could break something that's really important. But breaking something that's important, but works out for you in the long run is just playing that randomizer lottery a little bit further. So it's doable. It can happen in nature, it can happen on purpose in our hands, but it is trickier for certain traits.

 

Craig Macmillan  27:21 

So we're not going to X ray our way out of climate problems, basically, or diseases problems, right? Well, there may not be the right genetic information in the background of vinifera that even if we tried that, we'd have that set of genes that we would need, whereas we would have it in a native, native vine North American vine.

 

Jason Londo  27:42 

And just a sheer a sheer number of breaks that you might have to make in order to shift the physiology enough to matter. These climate adaptation pathways are highly networked. They involve hormones, they involve sugar metabolism. And so if you really break something important, it's going to cause a really bad phenotype of death phenotype, you have to nudge the system enough in a specific direction to make a meaningful change. And so, given the complexity of the trade, it makes it harder. I don't want to say anything is impossible. I do think that there would be ways to make vinifera better, more plastic in the environment. I think the potential is there for vinifera to do better in a lot of climates. I don't know if directed mutagenesis is the most efficient way to do it. I mentioned is that random, right, you're breaking double stranded DNA at random, and then it's really healing and there's so many things have to work out for you to hit the right gene, have the right repair, you know, all of that sort of stuff that it's a method, but I don't I wouldn't say it's the most efficient method breeding with wild germ plasm is also a method, the key weakness there is then it's no longer Chardonnay, right from our wine drinking sort of our own personal biases on that situation. We outcross Chardonnay to make it more climate resilient. It's no longer Chardonnay. So it can't be sold as Chardonnay. And that itself creates a market pressure against changing it to something that's more resilient. And I think until the climate imparts an equal level of pain as consumer pressure, we won't get there. I don't think it's a question of if it will happen. It's a question of when.

 

Craig Macmillan  29:23 

What kind of projects are you working on currently? You've mentioned experiments and breeding and it's now what do you what do you up to?

 

Jason Londo  29:29 

So I have a pretty diverse program climate impacts is all season so we have a lot of winter projects. And we've covered some of that now trying to understand how Acclimation and deaacclimation work and if we can enhance it, we're working with but birth control. So if we could slow down deacclimation and delay by break, we could get around frost damage. And then I'm also working on a really big project is actually coming to an end where we've been looking at what the role of a rootstock is our mapping population concept that we talked about for QTL Mapping, we were talking about the scion, I have a project where we did that with the rootstock. And so we created a mapping population. The only part that is the grape babies is the roots. And we've grafted the same variety onto those roots. And then we're looking at how the different grape baby roots change the scions behavior. A really cool thing about this project is that we've replicated it clonally replicated it and grafted it in three different locations. So we have a vineyard in Missouri, a vineyard in South Dakota and a vineyard here in New York. And so across those three different environments, which are quite different, both in maximum temperature, minimum temperature and precipitation, we're learning so many cool things about what the roots can do to the same scion for your listeners, of course, they know grapes, so they know hopefully enough about grafting and that the rootstock and the scion are two different individuals. And they're mechanically grafted together. From a climate adaptation point of view, what you've done is you've taken an intact and adapted individual, and you've cut its head off, and then you've taken another climate adapted individual, and you've cut its legs off, and you've glued them together, and ask them to perform in the environment, which is just a wild, wild communication question. When the roots are experiencing one environment, and the shoot is experiencing another, how do they communicate? And then how does that affect our grape quality and wine quality? And so we're looking at drought response, can we increase the drought resistance of the Scion, based on the type of root it's on? Can we change the leaf nutrient profile, so the different ions that are taken up from the soil and how they're concentrated in the leaves. And of course, we don't really care about the leaves as much as we care about the fruit, the leaves are easy to work with. And we're even started working on wine quality. And so it looks like across our experiments, we might be able to optimize the rootstock and scion combinations we grow in different climates. To produce specific wind quality attributes, which is really cool.

 

Craig Macmillan  32:00 

That is really cool. That is really cool. We're just about out of time. But I want to is there one thing on the on these topics that you would like or recommend to our listeners, or you'd like our listeners to know?

 

Jason Londo  32:11 

Oh, well, I think their take home is is that we should all appreciate the new cultivars that come on the scene, whether they be from early regions like the the Eastern caucuses, something that we are not used to having in this country, or its climate adapted varieties that are bred in this country, and grown in these different regions. We need to do our best to open our minds not to does this grape or that grape tastes like cab sauv, or tastes like Chardonnay. But isn't it amazing what this grape tastes like period, because a lot of the the advances in resilience and sustainability that we can get out of either adopting new cultivars, shifting cultivars from climate to climate, or by using hybrid varieties in different regions, all of the benefits that we can get out of growing the right kind of grapes in the right climate, reduces inputs in the vineyard reduces inputs on the ecology. It increases the economic stability of rural communities. And it gives you pride in what the local region can produce. And I guess my take home would be is drink more adapted wines, enjoy them, figure out the nuances. Some of them are not great, but some of them are really great. drink more wine.

 

Craig Macmillan  33:33 

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

 

Jason Londo  33:36 

So the easiest way is just to Google my name and Cornell and that will take you right to my Cornell page. There's not a lot of information on my Cornell page, and I'm a big procrastinator on my personal website. But you can find my contact information there and certainly get a hold of me directly. If there's anything of interest. I will also send you some links that you can use to take listeners to the Vitis underground project, which is the NSF rootstock project I talked about, I can send you a link to we have a cold hardiness website where we post prediction models that we've built about cold hardiness across most of the Eastern US. We hope to expand that to be nationwide once once I get a stronger computer, but I can send you some links there. Yeah, I would say that that's probably the best places to find information on me and the program here. And if people are in town to come and see Cornell Agrotech and see some of the stuff in the field.

 

Craig Macmillan  34:30 

I would love to pay a visit. I've interviewed a number of your colleagues there and there's so much cool stuff going on. really innovative and really groundbreaking feel like we're on the leading edge of a wave that some point is going to break again. Maybe we'll be drinking wines other than the ones we've been drinking. I can see that happening. Anyway. So our guest today was Jason Londo. He's Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. Thank you.

 

Jason Londo  34:55 

Thanks

 

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

The study of whole vine physiology does not isolate one variable in grape growing. It looks at many factors at once including data collection in the plant, in the environment and in fruit. In her research, Patty Skinkis, Viticulture Extension Specialist and Professor in the Horticulture Department at Oregon State University helps growers improve their farming practices by evaluating the plant growth stage, shoot growth, pruning weights, yield, cluster weight, berry size, and fruit chemistry. Patti shares her surprising results from a 10-year trial on crop load management. Grower trials found there was very little difference with crop thinning in both fruit and wine quality.

References:

• 145: New Class of Compounds Linked to Smoke Taint in Wines
• 2/15/2023 Managing Grapevine Trunk Disease Webinar | REGISTER
• Elizabeth Tomasino, Associate Professor, Oregon State University
• Patty Skinkis
• Patty Skinkis Google Scholar Page
• Patty Skinkis on Instagram
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member
• Yield Management Video

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Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

And our guest today is Dr. Patti Skinkis. She is viticulture extension specialist and professor in the Horticulture Department at Oregon State University. And really excited to have you here tonight. Welcome Patti.

 

Patti Skinkis  0:10 

Thank you. It's great to be here.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:12 

So there's a concept that's kind of out there. I'm familiar with the words, but I'm not entirely familiar with what it means. What is whole vine physiology?

 

Patti Skinkis  0:21 

Whole vine physiology is really looking at the study of how the vine is responding to its environment. And it's not looking at just one component, it's looking at how the entire vine is responding. A lot of times, whole plant physiologists are more applied plant physiologist, rather than more fundamental in that they're looking at exactly how that plant is responding to its environment. And sometimes that environment is things that we do to it, such as the studies that we do and in crop management, as well as fine tuning, looking at some aspects and and trying to understand how it links to other aspects of how that plant is responding to its environment. But we're taking the plant as a whole.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:59 

That sounds kind of difficult. It sounds like there's a lot of variables there. How do you do you identify a couple of variables? And say, we're going to look at these? And if so, how many might you be able to handle at a time? You know, I've done a lot of research and statistics. And every time you add something the whole system gets exponentially more complex. As an example, what kinds of things might you look at with a plant, you're going to modify one variable in the environment? But then what other kinds of responses might you look at?

 

Patti Skinkis  1:23 

Well, doing whole plant physiology work is difficult in it's the nature of the beast, when you're looking at the entirety and taking it in as a whole. I like to address this question from a standpoint of what it is not. And partly because I work with a lot of other scientists who work in biochemistry or fruit chemistry. And they always want to isolate the one thing or two things that can explain what we might be seeing in fruit chemistry, or in plant nutrition. But the reality is, we have to accept that we can't explain at all that it's a whole package. It's not one specific mechanism. As a result of that we look at a lot of things, we try to understand how one piece will influence another piece. So a lot of times in the studies that I'm doing, we tend to do a lot of data collection on the plant as well as in the environment. And then the fruit, it means that we do a lot of data collection, maybe more so than other scientists would if they are just looking at pathology or insects or some other aspect, we monitor the vines phonology. So the growth stage, we monitor shoot growth early season, and then we switch to leaf area, we do pruning weight. So all of those are giving us an idea of the plant size, how much it grows. And then of course, we look at yield, and then yield components, which takes it through looking at cluster weight and rakus, length and very size. And all of those just take a lot of time. And then of course we get into the root chemistry. And it's not just you know basic ripeness at harvest, we then go into global analyses of key compounds like nitrogen and the phenomics. We do collect a lot of data and ultimately, what refines what we're looking at is kind of we always write our research questions to say, Okay, here's what we're going to target. But then a lot of times, we end up coming back to doing all of those measures, in part because we know that a lot of it is interlinked. And so it is a lot of data collection, a lot of complexity. One of your questions was how do we deal with all the variables? And so that really, you know, from the standpoint of doing whole plant physiology, where I'm working in a vineyard, I'm working typically in research farms, or on grower collaborator sites. And when it comes to controlling variables, that's when we try to do as much as we can. So can we pick a trial site where we've got very healthy vines that we know are consistent, rootstock consistent soil as best we can consistent, slope, we try to even avoid hillsides if we can. And if we can't, then we block accordingly. So we're doing a lot of re study evaluation of the site to know what can we at least try to eliminate instead of creating more messiness, in a system that we're trying to understand.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:02 

You mentioned work that you're doing what what kinds of things you're looking at right now.

 

Patti Skinkis  4:05 

So right now we have a number of different trials, but main work is in vineyard floor management rootstocks and yield management. And so those are the three primary areas that I'm working on currently.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:19 

What do you do with root stocks? I know that wasn't the topic you and I talked about earlier, but I'm curious about that, because that's a fixed thing. Pick the root stock. And that's it forever. I hope I made the right choice.

 

Patti Skinkis  4:30 

While we're doing a rootstock trial, and I'm lucky that my predecessors had established a block in 1997. So we have a well maintained mature trial with 19 rootstocks that are include Pinot Noir on those 19 rootstocks and owner divines. And so we came back thinking okay, there's a lot more questions coming from growers here in Oregon about what rootstocks they should be using climate change is definitely occurring. We see warmer, drier seas Once and while most of our vineyards can be dry farmed in the Willamette Valley, many people are very concerned about being in sites that have limited soils or not as luxurious soil. So we call them in terms of soil moisture as and nutrition, but also there, even though we're dry farmed, we don't necessarily have access to water. So if they needed to irrigate and may not be be possible if they're getting into different vineyard properties, we decided to embark on looking at this trial that has been in place at our research farm and come in and start looking at plant water stress and comparing those to our standard rootstocks, which happened to be in our trial. So we have a whole mix of more drought tolerant root stocks as well as our standard vineyard rootstocks, which are mostly vigor reducing, not drought tolerant. And those are what most of our industry is planted on, at least here in the Willamette Valley. And so the the trial was really done to see, okay, if we do switch to root stocks, what does it look like for yield for canopy size. And we, of course, looked at the the water stress response as well. And so we've been monitoring over the last four years different components of that rootstock trial, and the last two years being looking more in depth at plant water stress as a result.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:12 

This is kind of a practical question, in my mind when we're talking about things like yield changes, are you pruning like this rootstock tell? Are you pruning everything to the same bud count? Are you leaving the same number of growing points on every mind?

 

Patti Skinkis  6:22 

That is a great question, because it's such a mature trial, the results of rootstock are clearly visible. So for the most part, we can prune to the same number of buds per plant. But in some cases, we have to do balance pruning, because there's so little vigor, so for example, with Riparia rootstock, it's very degrading. And so we cannot do the same number of buds as we can, for 1616 or 1103 or 140R for the most part, we try to keep to the same, but number. But again, we have to balance prune some of those that are clearly very invigorated by the rootstock.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:00 

You've been doing work on crop load recently, which I'm very, very, very interested in. What is it specifically that you're looking at terms of variables, manipulations, then also very user? How did this come about? How did this become a research question they became interested in?

 

Patti Skinkis  7:12 

The crop load work has been a part of my research program now for about 12 years. And I started out doing that work, because I saw a lot of focus on reducing yield in the Oregon industry. When I first came here, it didn't make sense to me, because our vines are very healthy, we get a lot of leaf area, they're well managed. And it's not high shoot density. I mean, everybody has shoot thinning to the the required three shoots per linear foot, or three to five at most per linear foot. And so their crop thinning at that time to one cluster per shoot, which is about a 40% crop reduction, and they're doing it late in the season. So around lag phase, of berry development. So I embarked on a study to studies timing by intensity trial in 2010, through 2013, and looked at just when should they be cropping and by how much. And we found that from that study, there was very clearly no benefit to really doing it early, we could do it late in which was my surprise, I thought if there was going to be any impact that would be necessary to hasten ripening, then, and that's always our goal, hasten ripening and increase quality because a lot of growers believe we need to do it to get our harvest end before the fall rains, or just to improve what they call concentration.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:34 

Real quick, just talked about Oregon in general. So if I've got Pinot Noir in the Willamette Valley, how much danger do I have from rain coming into harvest? Is that a common problem? Is that happen occasionally, but enough that it's an issue?

 

Patti Skinkis  8:46 

Certainly 10 to 12 years ago, it was a real and present danger every year. And now in recent years, it's been less of a concern because we become warmer and we tend to be harvesting earlier. So when I embarked on this trial, you know, it's always a concern. And it certainly is at the forefront of most of the longtime grape growers and winemakers as we get new people and I think they're willing to do more hangtime. So there's always this dichotomy of wanting hang time, but always the threat of, of rain, and we just don't know there's no crystal ball to know how long we'll have. But typically, we're seeing more dry September's than we have in the past. Usually, by the time we get to October, everybody's you know, they're worried about the rain coming, it's a percentage chance of having rains during harvest is significantly higher. As we get into October when we were doing the work. We wanted to see, you know, should they be thinning because their vines are behind and they need to thin earlier or do we thin later as a means to kind of have them catch up. And what we found in those first studies was that did not really make a difference to crop thin, early, and in fact, it made more vigor and we deal with a lot of over vigor in the Willamette Valley, so there was definitely not worth cluster thinning preboot Boom or at bloom or even at fruit set and waiting to leg favs was completely founded. The second thing we found is that the cluster thinning really didn't have had much of an impact at all. The only year it did was in 2011, which was a, a cooler season, and a very big crop. And we were very late. So about a month later in everything. And so we did see a benefit of of cluster thinning in that year where we kind of reached a maximum level that we would expect that these plants would be able to carry through ripeness. So when I did all of those trials, I shared it with growers, they were very excited to hear the results growers much more excited than winemakers about the results. But their answer kept being to me, you know that that's great, you got an answer for those two vineyards where you did that work. But those are special cases or only those vineyards. And I thought, you know, is bigger. When we look at crop load management is such a entrenched practice that you crop then in high in cool climate regions for high wind quality. Restricting crop is important. And that's something that one study here there is not going to change. And the only way to really change it would be to embark on a very large project that directly engages growers in that process, not only growers but winemakers, too, and doing that work on their farms. So prior to my first crop load studies even being finished, I started embarking on this idea of a much, much more grandiose project that involved a lot of partnership with industry directly. And so over two years, we had planned the study, working with growers on an advisory committee and said, Okay, here's my idea, what do you think, will you join? And how can we make this work. And so that was in 2010, I basically started having those conversations while I was also doing my smaller scale projects. And as a result of that, we started what's called the statewide crop load project. And we ran that for 10 years from 2012, to 2021. So 10 growing seasons, and we solicited partnerships with growers, they were all volunteers, and they came mostly from the Willamette Valley. And they basically did the cluster thinning or crop thinning to their determined levels that they wanted to use over as many as 10 years. So so they had to be in the project at least three years if they could. And the the goal was for them also to make wine. And so sometimes the winery that owns the vineyard made the wine sometimes other folks or other people who bought the wine made the wine, the wines had to be made. And so the process was that the growers had to do the thinning and collect data per protocols that my lab gave them. And then they had to produce the wines that then we did some analysis on. And we did the analysis on fruit as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:43 

These growers, were they doing different different levels of thinning on their property, side by side, and then you were using site as rep. I'm totally geeking out here, but or were they designed as replicated experiments on site or just this ranch does this and this ranch does it? How did you how did you set it up? Because that's hard?

 

Patti Skinkis  13:01 

Yes. So we set it up as more robust is what I wanted, I wanted to be replicated on site. And then so each trial is its own trial. So each grower had to replicate it in a randomized complete block design in their individual vineyards. And so that at the end of the day, we could analyze their data within their vineyard, as well as across all vineyards. So it's replicated at least three times. In fact, most vineyards were replicated far more than three times, but I only made them get data on three reps, because they've quickly realized that they could divide their vineyard up into as many treatment reps as they wanted. But then if they would collect data on all of those, it would just be time to time consuming. So we did minimum of three reps of data collection.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:45 

You are my statistical hero. Now, I've had to do these. And what you're doing is just the gold standard gold plated. I'm so happy. I can't wait to find out what you found out because you did it exactly right. I'm so struck, anyway continues to have. So this is great. So the industry they're doing, they're doing it on site. They're collecting data.

 

Patti Skinkis  14:03 

They're collecting the data, they hand in the data, they make the wine, and then we did sensory for five years with the Oregon State University. My colleague here Elizabeth Tomasino led sensory trials with winemakers. And so we did the first five years that way. And then the second five years, the group as a whole decided they wanted to switch gears and focus on just their internal sensory. So in house evaluation of their wines, which I had hoped that they were doing the first five years, but it turned out unless you gave them a protocol, they did not collect the data on it. They were collecting data, but they weren't sharing it. So that was my the second half of the study. I thought okay, we'll shift gears and part of that was, you know, ideally, someone would say, Well, why don't you just stick it through with that the sensory analysis at OSU? Well, it costs money. And this project was, you know, for a 10 year project, we had to try to save money as best we can because no granting agency wants to get have money for 10 years of research. And so we decided, you know that we were not going to continue with that and, and shift really to the focus of the growers. I mean, that's who's making the decision growers and wineries, I should say, making the decisions about the quality of the wines as a result of thinning to make their choices as to where that fruit goes and make future plans on crop thinning. And so we really took it towards that first five years looking at do we see a difference? Versus and doing some descriptive analysis to the second five years still trying to see asking questions about difference testing, and about descriptive analysis, but now taking it from a standpoint of who's making this decision about these wines, and they're tasting them. And so really encouraging growers to taste them and wineries to taste them if they had not already done so.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:51 

And what kind of things did you find out?

 

Patti Skinkis  15:53 

So the power of doing the research in each individual vineyard meant that I could do the stats for each vineyard and hand them a report of their project. And each year as we went through the project, we would share the results with the growers. So we went every year crop year that we closed, we shared the viticulture data with them. And the results were there's very little difference with crop thinning over time, we figured okay, this might be a you know, impact of, you know, over time, you know, we always hear from crop consultants or vineyard managers, if you keep cropping heavy, you're gonna have to add more inputs. We didn't see that, generally speaking, we have some vines in the study that were full cropped, never thinned for 10 years. And they did just fine. There are some things that we did find, you know, generally speaking in any one vineyard with lag phase crop thinning, there was very little impact on and fruit quality. So fruit composition is mostly what we had data for. But we're talking bricks, pH titratable. acidity, very rarely were they different until we got into years where our base yields were just much higher than normal. So we saw that in a year where maybe our yields were double. So cluster sizes were bigger fruitfulness was higher than we saw some impact, but it wasn't every site, it was maybe a third of the sites, the results really came that most sites there's very little difference in that end wine quality and when I'm sick or fruit quality, I should say. So Brix pH ta Yanes. So use this global nitrogen, we looked at total phenolic total tannins total anthocyanins and for the first five years of the study, we had ETS labs run their whole phenolic panel, and as well as their ripening panel, and we saw very little differences in there might be some years that a certain vineyard had a difference. But then after that year, they didn't have it anymore. So it was very inconsistent. And it's not to say that thinning did nothing, but it was very, very limited in the results to say okay, we are definitely changing x when we crop then we didn't see that. And that was a real eye opener. So that was the fruit. So I should say that was what the fruit told us now when it came to the wine. For the first five years, our sensory panel led by Dr. Elizabeth Thomasino, you know, here at OSU, she was winemakers. So the winemakers were Oregon winemakers, the results of those years was that crop level was not what drove the quality or the perceived preference of wine, it was really the vineyard or the the winemaker from a given site, there was never really any clear identity of higher quality or higher concentration or higher certain descriptive analyses for a crop level. So it became clear that there wasn't very much difference. And that was one of the reasons the real reasons why I think the collaborators wanted to go a different route because they were not seeing seeing much difference. And so they thought, Well, maybe if we start looking internally, we see differences. So the second five years, we did ETS labs didn't run the analysis, I ran those in house in my lab. And so we we did the same measures as ETS lab from from the standpoint of global analyses, same thing, very little difference. But when we switched to looking at the impact of wines from getting the data from the winemakers, number one we had a really hard time getting that data and so many collaborators, they followed through, and they didn't do the paperwork, or they didn't ever follow through with us. And so it was really challenging to get the data but from those who did follow our protocols, the results mirrored our first five years which was there was very little difference. And it was very hard to tell a difference in in the wines. Now they knew that there was a difference. So when we asked him for a difference test, we said can you tell the difference? Of course they said yes, because they knew they were blind tasted but they knew if any, it was an evaluation, so it was a little leading there. But when it came down to describing what they were seeing in the wines, comments like all of these wines are lovely came up and so there wasn't a clear distinction on quality, that one was very clearly bad. So we did a two step approach, we had them first taste some blind, do their ratings individually, then they would find out the identity of the wines. And then they as a group, they would talk about them. And it always came out that after they knew the identity, that's when they were changed their mind about any given wine that they rated initially. So what we see in the pattern of the results was that they were willing to not completely downgrade the higher yield. Unless it was the no thin. If it was no, thin they felt very uncomfortable saying, Okay, we don't need tp thin, but they felt more comfortable saying, Okay, we like this one and a half clusters for shoot, which is a one to one to thinning pattern, which is about a 15 to 20% crop production. And I can understand that as a winemaking team, as a grower team, you want to be conservative, you want to be careful, you don't want to say okay, yeah, so I found a lot of what they were answering on was more future looking rather than what's right in front of you right now. Like looking at, okay, here's the wines use the full crop or no thin and here's your one and a half cluster, one cluster pursuit, you didn't find them all that different in the descriptive analysis. But now when you're, you know, the identity, then you're saying, Okay, we're not going to take these notes into our highest here. We're going to leave those aside. So there's some bias.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:20 

Yeah, well, no, absolutely. And that's one of the things I love talking about. And you know that the winemaking techniques were consistent across the lots. Yeah, so it wasn't canopy management manipulations or anything like that.

 

Patti Skinkis  21:32 

Yep. So both in the vineyard and in the winery. So when we said they did this in their vineyard, they couldn't do things differently in the vineyard of two, one or the other. And we actually picked up an issue. And that some you know, when you do crop thinning, you have labor crews come through and leaf pull. And we recognize that early on that some growers just wouldn't leaf pull as much in there no thin so we had them go in and leaf pull the same as they would for their other thinned to remove that that issue. In the winery we told them they had to make all their wines the same. And we did not have them do for example, long barrel aging in oak barrels, they could make the wines how they normally make their wines. But they we did not want them to go to barrel. And so they had to be bottled and then tasted after about a year of bottle aging.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:21 

Interesting. Maybe I missed this but you were talking about the thinning protocols meaning like around bloom time and round lag phase. What about at verasion that's at least around where I'm at in Central Coast's is very common to do crop dropping about 85% verasion was that a component what you did was or verasion era?

 

Patti Skinkis  22:40 

We did verasion time point included in our time core study that was before we launched on the big project. So when we did the big project, we decided we would just go with what growers always do, rather than adding more time points. And so they just did in the statewide crapola project just did like face for our crapload are thinning by timing by intensity trial, we did include verasion for that time for that trial.

 

Craig Macmillan  23:08 

And that green drop is at about the same, like at about 85% or somewhere in there. What was the trigger for the drop at verasion?

 

Patti Skinkis  23:16 

It's post lag phase  was done when there's about 50% color.

 

Craig Macmillan  23:20 

Okay, there we go. Okay, that makes sense.

 

Patti Skinkis  23:22 

The verasion time point is or late, even later, is oftentimes done in Oregon as well. But usually it's a result of either thinking that they have way too much crop out there for their target yields, or disease, so botrytis.

 

Craig Macmillan  23:54 

And when you're talking about these different crop load levels, I would imagine that disease pressure would be an important issue, especially in Pinot Noir in Oregon, I would think.

 

Patti Skinkis  24:04 

So that's a great point, because some people, you know, will crop thin because they want to avoid overlapping clusters. But in our trial, what we did was we said, Okay, for the no thin, we want you to just do things like you've always done and some growers would say, Okay, now when they're, we're sorting that fruit, should we sort out at the sorting line, you know, and I said, No, you know, if you do sorting line for that fruit, make notes, you know, obviously, you don't want to make a bad wine because there's too much botrytis. But basically, what we had them do was if you're going to sort through one you have to sort through the other and don't just have preconceived notions that you're going to have to sort more in your no thin than the others. And we always in the data that we got in we looked at as we dissected clusters, we looked for detritus, and what we found is in most years, there is not an impact of having no thin having more disease. Now Could there have been sure if there was years with very heavy crop yield, and with high shoot density, but most of our vineyards have when we looked at all of our data we got in and one of the quality control checks is, what was their shoot density, and almost everybody's following in that perfect shoot density. And so there wasn't that necessary, necessarily that much fruit on their vine. So they're all cane pruned. And they're all shooting for that shoot density of between three and five shoots per linear foot. And we're more on the three end. So we can see that in all of the data. So it's not surprising to me that we didn't see disease issues as a result of leaving that full crop on there, why we didn't see a lot of differences in this trial, I should provide some context here. Without you know, the amount of yields were not terribly high, with that kind of shoot density. So single canopy, low shoot density, we're at a pound per linear foot on average full crop in only a couple of years. During the 10 year period, we're over one and a half pounds per linear foot. So the tonnage that would come off of that. And I always put talking pounds per linear foot because our vineyards were in many different spacing and shoot and vine density. So you we can't talk tonnage, what we found in looking at the data that there were clear years where once we had yields over one and a half pounds per linear foot, then we saw some benefit of cluster thinning. But those years where we are barely at one or just over one, there really was not a benefit. And of course, that's because of the canopies being well maintained. The shoe density is not too high cluster density is not too high a cluster size themselves are smaller.

 

Craig Macmillan  26:36 

What has been the reception so far, for both growers and winemakers because this goes a little bit against conventional wisdom, at least in my experience?

 

Patti Skinkis  26:45 

It goes a lot against convention,

 

Craig Macmillan  26:47 

I'm trying to be polite.

 

Patti Skinkis  26:51 

Well, the nice thing is, you know, because along the way of doing a 10 year project, I was always giving presentations as the new data set came out and people in the industry would hear me give presentations about it. But I think the strongest impact was seen because I had grower collaborators, they saw the impact in their vineyards and in their wineries. And what we found was that people are much more willing to increase their yields. My answer is not that they they stopped crop thinning, surely that didn't happen. But they were allowed to evaluate and recommend higher yields than they had in the past. And this is a data set that was really hard to get directly from people. But we see it in our state yield reports that basically they've gone up 25% The yields have for Pinot Noir. Since the work has been started. When I talk to people who are contracting fruit or selling fruit. They said they definitely see that winemakers are more receptive to vineyard owners and vineyard managers recommending higher yields. And they're no longer saying it has to be one cluster per shoot, or it has to be two tons per acre. And I would say the 25% increase in yield is conservative I when we did ask the collaborators about the project, we asked them about three quarters way through the project said, What do you feel comfortable doing as a result of this work. And they said, we feel comfortable adding another half to one tonne per acre, which is about a 20 25% increase from what they've done before. And so that's really is really astounding, I think any if I hadn't done the project this way, I don't think that people would have been able to understand the true impacts or lack thereof, of doing cluster thinning. So it provided with them with more evidence that they can take this risk and or they they didn't feel like it was as big of a risk to leave more fruit out there.

 

Craig Macmillan  28:48  

Which reminds me I know it's difficult to talk in terms of tonnes per acre. So we can talk through the linear foot, but the range in your work from the most aggressive thinning to the unthinned. What kind of a range is there, how big of a difference in terms of the crop load?

 

Patti Skinkis  29:04 

In terms of the yield that they've had in vineyards, the lowest crop thinning level that growers did was half cluster per shoot. So that meant thinning pattern 0101 or 1010. The yields on those would be as low as one and a half tonnes per acre. But it depends on the vineyard that it came from because one of the vineyards that did it was a very high density. So their yields were actually pretty high even still, but I'd say the max that we got in any vineyard was probably close to about eight tons per acre. So clusters per linear foot were always pretty consistent unless they went to a double canopy. So we did have one collaborator in the study that was on a GDC or Geneva demo curtain. But that vineyard was actually pretty degraded so it didn't explain higher yields. What we saw was higher yields were from those vineyards that had high density meter by a meter and a half spacing. Normally we were at on a pounds per linear foot bed He says that the extremes were about two to two and a half pounds per linear foot. And so for those vineyards, they could be pretty substantial if they were in the high density.

 

Craig Macmillan  30:09 

We are running our of time. So I want to ask you a couple of kind of closing questions. Is there one piece of advice or insight or one thing that you would tell a grower regarding this topic.

 

Patti Skinkis  30:18 

It all depends on what you have for your vineyard, your rootstock, how the vines are trained. So the biggest thing that we came up from this research is that we don't want to tell people that they have to crop them or that they don't have to crop them that and that we don't have a real answer of how much it has to be. But one of the things we do have clear in the data is that we know when we've gone too much, a lot of people think that that's every year and it's not every year because of our climate is so variable, we don't know what we're gonna have, we can go and quantify fruitfulness. But really until we get through fruit set in June, we don't know what our yields look like. And so I always tell people to keep monitoring your printing weights, your yields, calculating your your your Rivas index or the crop yield printing weight ratio, and just keep monitoring it for your site to know what Max is going to be because some vineyards can handle more than others. And the last thing I would say is quality is dependent on the vineyard site and how that site is managed. And even if you have a good manager, you are never going to have a really high end wine if you don't have the right site or the right you know, selection of clone rootstock etc. So it all plays into that quality and just crap any is not going to guarantee you a high quality wine.

 

Craig Macmillan  31:41 

Once again. It's a great big world with lots of different variables all of which have to be considered. I want to thank my guest Dr. Patty Skinkis she is a viticulture, extension specialist and professor at Oregon State University in the Department of Horticulture. Real pleasure this has been really, really fun. Like I mentioned, this has actually been kind of a pet topic of mine for a long, long time. And I'm really happy that you've been doing this work and I hope more people learn about it.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Microbial communities vary widely from plant to plant, even from rootstock to rootstock! Philippe Rolshausen, Professor of Cooperative Extension for Subtropical Horticulture in the Department of Botany and Plant Sciences at the University of California Riverside studies the phytobiome. This includes all organisms associated with the vine including bacteria, fungi, insects, and animals. Learn the impact these communities have on your vineyard from young vine decline under extreme stress to the wine’s terrior. 

Resources:        

• 78: Biological Control for Grape Vine Trunk Diseases
• A Method to Detect and Quantify Eutypa lata and Diplodia seriata-Complex DNA in Grapevine Pruning Wounds
• Endophytic microbial assemblage in grapevine
• Grapevine pruning strategy affects trunk disease symptoms, wood pathobiome and mycobiome
• Philippe Rolshausen
• Phylogenomics of Plant-Associated Botryosphaeriaceae Species
• Rolshausen Lab
• Soil Health Playlist
• Temporal Dynamics of the Sap Microbiome of Grapevine Under High Pierce’s Disease Pressure

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• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

[00:02:07] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Philippe Roshausen. He is Professor of Cooperative Extension at University of California, Riverside. And today we're going to be talking about the soil microbiome. Thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe.

[00:02:19] Philippe Rolshausen: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: Well, when we do these topics, like to start from the very basics. And then we can go very deep from there. What is your definition of the soil microbiome?

[00:02:31] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, a microbiome is the collection of microbes. The soil microbiome is the collection of microbes associated with the soil. I have to say we work on the soil microbiome, but we also work on the phytobiome, which is the collection of organisms. associated with the, the, vine, and that can be fungi, bacteria, viruses, even insects. So we are more interested in fungi and bacteria in my lab. And especially those that live inside the vine and how it's connected to the roots and the soil.

[00:03:12] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm very interested in that. Just for our listeners, other aspects of the soil microbiome could include things like microarthropods,

uh, nematodes, etc. It's a very complex Complicated

ecosystem.

[00:03:26] Philippe Rolshausen: I and I only focus on one part of it.

[00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: The work that I've done with soil microbiome in a very primitive way. We just focused on total bacteria, total biomass, things like that.

You just mentioned this and this is a good jumping off point actually. Because plants are an active part of this ecosystem, you will find different soil microbiomes around different crops. What is the soil microbial community like around grapevines in particular?

[00:03:50] Philippe Rolshausen: Well compared to, to what is the question. Let's give you an example. I work on citrus and grapes in the same soil environment, you would see differences between a grapevine and the citrus plant just because of the property of the host. Within grapevine, you know. Depending on the variety or the rootstocks, I should say then you would also have different microbial communities associated with the rootstock.

And this is like a plant effect because plant recruits their microbes. So, so you have sort of a template of microbial or a core microbiome, which is you would find across a different rootstock or varieties of grapes or even plants. But then. Some are very variety specific or host specific, and so you would tend to see some varietal specificity and specific microbe associated with some of those rootstock operants.

[00:04:47] Craig Macmillan: That's news to me. That's fascinating.

there is some commonality, but you will find some differences just based on things like rootstock?

[00:04:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes.  

[00:04:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that is interesting. We may come back to that. one of the things about your work that I was really intrigued by, which I was unaware of, is the different microorganisms that one might find inside the grapevine, and what roles they play in the functioning of the plant. I mean, I think most of familiar with Our gut microflora. Right, where we know that we have organisms inside us. We have organisms on our skin and all that. I didn't realize that was true for plants as well. Tell me more about that.

[00:05:26] Philippe Rolshausen: You can make the parallel between the roots and the gut, actually.

Because they have similar functions. Especially with respect to nutrient assimilation Defense against disease, for instance. Now, the gut is inside, the root is outside. Someone made the comment that the plant where there are guts on the outside, just because of that parallel that between the rhizosphere and the gut.

there is a connection between what's going on inside the plant and what's going on outside the plant. We are interested to understand what the organisms that live inside the plant. Where they're coming from. in terms of diversity the endosphere, which is the the region of the, the organism living inside the plant, the endosphere is not very diverse.

There's only a few of thousand fold less microbe capable of living inside the plant just because it's a more. Stringent environment I work on the xylem a lot and, you know, there's a negative pressure for instance, there are, there's not a lot of food available, for instance.

And so microbes have to adapt to those environments, right? And it's not every microbe is capable of doing that. there's only A certain type of microbe that can live inside them. we're interested in those because we work specifically on vascular disease of grapevines, so fungi, bacteria especially.

And we try to understand how those pathogens interact with the plant, but also really understand those pathogen within the, context of the microbial community and how those pathogen interact with the microbes living inside the plants. to go back to your question, it's like, where are those pathogen coming from?

How did they get there? How do they interact with the plant and how do they interact with the microbes? within those interaction, what would be the, the disease outcome in certain type of interaction.

[00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: So what we're talking about is we have these pathogenic organisms Which could be in the form of like grapevine trunk disease Things like that or Peirce's disease. In the case of bacteria and what you're getting at is it that there's other types and populations of microbes that may be antagonistic to the pathogen?

[00:07:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes. So that was our hypothesis. Traditionally, you know, microbiologists were looking for biological control agent against diseases and they were culturing those.

That was the traditional approach. So you take a plant tissue, You put it in the culture media and you see what's growing and then you test if those organism are able to inhibit the growth of your pathogen. That would be the traditional way of doing it. Now, with the metagenomics , the development of those technology, we're able to kind of look, at the entire community of those organisms living inside the plant and using those tools, we could actually select those that have some.

That might be antagonistic to certain pathogens. the beauty of this is that you can actually look at the entire community. When you look at a traditional microbial approach, you kind of zoom in on, to those that can grow in culture and those that can grow fast in culture and sort of overpower the other ones.

when you use those molecular approaches, you look at the entire community and you can And sort of a broader view of really what's going on and who does what. and so that's the approach that we've been doing to try to identify biological control agents or beneficial organism to plants and to grapes in particular.

what we do is we select plants with different phenotypes. So we will select. Plants that, you know, that range from very healthy to poor health. And we're able to build those sort of correlations with organisms that associate specifically with healthy plants and those that associate with sick plants.

and from that, once we have identified the organism, we can go back and try to culture it and to reintroduce him in the system to prove that Actually, they are beneficial in some capacity.

[00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: does this mean that I could have plant material, and one of those vines would be healthy and one would be weak and showing disease, but they both would have the pathogen, it's just that the other one has the microbial community to help fight it.

[00:10:07] Philippe Rolshausen: That's right.

[00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:10:09] Philippe Rolshausen: there's a environmental factor that comes into play as well. because abiotic stresses also so like, you know, drought or heat play a factor into the plant, weaken the plant in some capacity and will change the disease outcome and the interaction between the pathogen and the microbe.

There are more layers than, you know, the simple pathogen, microbe. plant interaction There's also the environment in which those components are part of that really plays a big factor.

[00:10:43] Craig Macmillan: So, are you finding or pursuing how those abiotic factors can be manipulated?

[00:10:50] Philippe Rolshausen: A little bit. I'm really interested in those aspects of, especially in the eras of climate change.

plants are going to be subjected to a lot more stress than they used to be. I think we need to understand how this is going to affect the, the microbiome at large and because I'm a pathologist, how this is going to affect disease outcome. we are starting to only scratch the surface of that.

I think a lot of people are as well. It's a lot more complicated when you work with. Woody perennial than when you work with an annual plant, because you have the approaches and the logistics are more challenging, I would say. drought is the number one just because it's been on the radar of every grower in California, but so we, you know, we are interested to see how those factors really affect the Have an effect on disease.

Yes.

[00:11:44] Craig Macmillan: Are you doing that in the laboratory?

[00:11:46] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, yes. You have to sort of work in more controlled conditions and sort of dissect it one stress at a time. so it is in more greenhouse conditions or gross chamber conditions where you can, semi controlled environment where you can really control heat or, you know, water or, and see how that affects the microbiome.

[00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: I think this is fascinating. can you tell me more about what that actually looks like, like how do you set it up? How are you controlling it? What kind of ranges are you using? I love the details.

[00:12:17] Philippe Rolshausen: So we've done experiments mostly with irrigation so far. And we are only starting to tie irrigation to microbiome, but we have done the.

How irrigation affects severity of disease and impact on the plant. this is pretty straightforward, you have plants that are fully irrigated that are not on the deficit irrigation, and then you calculate what a deficit irrigation like a 25 percent deficit irrigation look like, a 50 percent deficit irrigation look like, measuring, you know, how much water.

How much irrigation you put in on your plants, you inoculate your tree or vine with a pathogen, and you let it incubate for, you know, weeks, because you know, those are slow pathosystems, they take time, and you see how that affects for trunk disease in particular lesion of the wood necrotic lesion, for instance.

And then we look at factors on the plant. We measure biomass, for instance, of the roots, the shoots. We look at gas exchange, photosynthesis, and so on and so forth. going down to the microbiome, you know, we would be sampling the tissue, extracting the DNA, and then sequencing, you know, all the microbial community, bacterial and fungal, to see how those communities have changed over time in a well watered versus a deficit irrigated plants.

[00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: And is that quantitative analysis, or is it simply the complexity of the diversity of the microbiome

[00:13:56] Philippe Rolshausen: it's semi quantitative so let's say, you know, like you're looking at a presence of a specific taxa.

It's a relative abundance of the taxa in comparison to the others. So when you see an increase of the taxa. in your community, it's either because it does increase or because the other taxa within that community decreased. So it increases in, in relation to that. So it's not really an absolute measure of abundance.

It is a relative measure of abundance, but you could still use it and make some correlation with that.

[00:14:34] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain, metagenomics?

[00:14:37] Philippe Rolshausen: That's not my field. To be honest with you, but the principle is that you're using primers that are universal primers and that allow you to, so there are.

Meaning that you can sequence conserved region. So those primers are aligned with conserved region across several taxonomic groups. Okay, so fungi or bacteria. And then you sequence a length of nucleotide. In our case, it's about 200, 250 nucleotides in length. In between, and this is valuable between those two.

Primers, that region is valuable. And so you could start making you can do a micro real fingerprinting and identify which types are, are present, you know, but it's the community of organism. So it's like all the fungal communities or all the bacterial communities. So some primers are better than others for special taxonomy group.

So for instance. I work with Dario Cantu at UC Davis, CBT Controlled Neurology. Davis uses field of knowledge, and so he developed primers for group causing grapevine trunk diseases. And so it's mostly what's called the Ascomycota phyla. his primers are mostly focusing on this group of, fungi, but it doesn't give any information on The basidiomycota, which is another group, or the glomerulomycota, which is the mycorrhizae fungi.

if you wanted to get information about this group, you would need to get a different set of primers, right? so it's really up to primer that you're using that gets you the right information. and also the database that you're using that gives you the right information because sometimes the database are not curated or they're not accurate, and those are getting better as we're getting more and more knowledge about the taxonomy and, and the biology of those organisms.

we're able to make more accurate prediction because we're gaining more knowledge about those organisms. So for instance, there's a lot more information about bacteria than, They are about fungi just because there are not a lot of reference genome for fungi compared to bacteria. so it's a lot more difficult to predict. Sometimes for fungi than it is for bacteria.

[00:17:01] Craig Macmillan: But it sounds like that would be coming down the road.

[00:17:04] Philippe Rolshausen: Oh yeah, yeah, it's a matter of time. I mean, really, you know, this technology is going so fast, so quickly that, in five years from now, I can't even predict what it's going to look like,

[00:17:15] Craig Macmillan: This thought just occurred. your work is obviously, I don't want to say infancy, but it's, it's pretty early work. You know, we're, we're working with tools that are still in development, basically. at this point, would you say that there are certain conditions or practices or manipulations that a grower could use to promote the most beneficial endo, um, microbiome in their plants?

[00:17:40] Philippe Rolshausen: In principle, yes, and I believe that this is true. We just don't have the knowledge yet to make recommendations that are solid. There we go. So, when you apply something to your soil, you know, if you're a grower and you apply fertilizers, or this is going to, or even if you if you till your soil or it will have some impact on the soil microbiology.

That we know. How that reflects to what's going on inside the plant, we are, we are not there yet. We, we don't have that knowledge yet just because like I've said before, only a few of those organisms move inside the plant. There's always a a gap between you know, what's going on outside the plant and what's going on inside the plant.

The inside the plant it's a buffered environment that changes very slowly compared to the root of, a grapevine. what we've done is we've looked at the microbiome of vines that we planted in the field and look at the rhizosphere microbiome, or the, the The macro bill community associated with the root and the macro bill, community associated with the trunk, the graft union, and so forth.

And we see right after planting that the microbial communities associated with the root changes really quickly, whereas the the microbiome in the trunk are the graph union. changes very slowly. whatever growers do and cultural practices that they implement in the vineyard will have a limited effect inside the vine or it will take years for this to see the effect.

the rhizosphere microbiome drive a lot of, of biological function, you know, they, they, they fix nitrogen metabolize phosphorus detoxify compounds and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of, benefits of, using some cultural practices, beneficial practices and how they affect microbial communities associated with the roots.

[00:19:48] Craig Macmillan: We know that for like the pathogenic organisms, like the fungal ones, you know, they come in through wounds, whether that's a grafting or whether that's a pruning, we know that bacteria are introduced through things like piercing sucking insects. Like Leaf Hoppers and Peirce's disease. what is the, pathway for the bacteria and fungi that you find inside of a vine that are not the pathogens?

[00:20:10] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, you said it. the pathway is like from inside the vine, it's first of all inherited from the nursery. That's, that's the main pathway.

And then. Some of those organisms come from the soil, there's a fraction that comes from the soil and move throughout the plant systemically through the sap, the plant sap. So that's another pathway one of the major pathway. But again, that takes time. Right. And then, you have fewer introduction that comes through, you know, the plant natural openings, stomatas on the leaves, for instance.

Right. Or pruning wounds. Some organism when vines are pruned some organism common pruning wounds and are able to colonize down into the vascular system. That's another path. Or introduction through insects. And, you know, OSA is, you know, one of the best example of that being introduced with shop shooters. during feeding So, but I would say those, are minor introduction compared to what's already there when the vine is being planted and secondary to movement you know, sap movement throughout the plant, from the root to the upper part of the plant.

[00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: One thing that I saw mentioned is that these variations in The microbiome inside the plant may also have kind of a role in our concept of terroir in terms of how different areas have different characteristics. Is there, something to that idea?

[00:21:46] Philippe Rolshausen: the characteristic of wine region or the terroir is not only linked to the soil, the variety or the weather condition.

. It's also linked to the microbial communities associated with those vines. There has been a study that's very famous that was done 10 years ago at UC Davis that showed that. But it's mostly true for organisms that live on the plant surfaces the surface of the berries or the surface of the leaves.

It is not so true for organisms that live Inside the vasculature of the vine, just because of what we've talked about, just because it takes time for those communities to change over time. really those the microbial composition of the trunk is, from what we understand today, mostly inherited from what's coming from the nurseries.

you know, nurseries have a huge impact in shaping. the microbial communities of the trunk and the vines and you know, can you talk about terroir when it comes to the endosphere of the vine? I don't think so. I think it's, it's a debatable question. I think it's mostly true on epiphytic organism, organism that live on the vine surface just because they are more subject to the environment. Whereas it's not so true for trunk organisms,

[00:23:11] Craig Macmillan: , Even though we've been talking about the endophytic side, what's some of the things that the other parts do you were just talking about, we have a different community in the environment that's on the surface of the plant and that, that has a role in, you know, differences between regions in terroir. What impact are those kinds of organisms having on the physiology of the vine that contributes to those differences?

[00:23:35] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that I don't know because, you know, that's not the field I've studied. But they, could influence the fermentation process, but I'm more interested in the one that live inside.

Do they have an impact on the wine quality itself, perhaps, you know, that's a question we're interested in. they have an impact on disease. We know that much because they, they affect disease outcome and we've shown that.

The question also, I think, from the standpoint of A grape grower or a winemaker is like, well, do they also affect winemaking?

we found some bacterium in the sap of grape vines that are present during the fermentation process. So lactobacillus, for instance we found those in the sap of grapes and some bacteria that also that spoil the wine fermentation process will also. Found them in the sap. So the question is like, are those, are those coming from the soil?

You know, where are they coming from? We find them in the sap and then can they go inside? Can they be moved to the berry of the grapes and then participate in the fermentation process later on? We don't know the answer to that question. The only thing we know so far is that we can detect them inside the plant stem.

And so. What is the impact? That's the question mark, but those are really relevant questions questions we're interested in because, if you can connect the root system to the cluster, and then if you can influence the root system or the microbial community of the root system, then perhaps you can influence the communities living in the cluster and then, you know, Later on, influence your fermentation process.

So that's the idea behind it. It will take time to decipher those questions.  

[00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Coming back to the pathology side. we have testing programs for virus in the nursery system. And we have the ability to test for fungal diseases, of course.

 Do you see a role for testing for bacteria and fungi other than the pathogens at the nursery stage?

[00:25:48] Philippe Rolshausen: I don't think it makes sense. So we've been working with nurseries for several years now. And we are looking for where diseases are coming from prior to vineyard establishment. there's no certified program for fungal diseases and some bacterial disease like Crown gall.

there is a fraction of those pathogen that is coming from the nurseries. That's a fact and this is true for California, but this is true for everywhere else in the world. So if you get any. any vines from a nursery, you are going to find fungi causing grapevine trunk disease. And the reason is that there are over a hundred taxa of fungi causing grapevine trunk disease you will likely find one of them and not only that, but they are able to live on a different environment. And so they can live in soil, they can live in water, they can live in plant debris for some of them. And so you cannot get rid of them. I think that growers have to have the mindset that you are not going to be able to have plants free of pathogens causing fungal, grapevine, and trunk disease.

That's just not possible. Viruses, you can get rid of them and there is a certified program that works for that. This program would not work for fungi. It's just not realistic. Right. It would be too costly to do it. Right. Right. Right. Right. The question is like, can you live with it, right? Do pathogen causing grapevine trunk disease will cause the vine to die?

If that were the case, you would have no grape production in California because virtually all the vines are infected with one fungus causing grapevine trunk disease. that's not the case. It happens, it's called young vine decline, you know, when sometimes growers plant their vine. And the vine dies within five years.

But this is because what we understand now is that it's related to the stress factor that I was talking about earlier. there is something going on with the environmental stress that caused the vine to decline after five years. what we've done is to monitor the microbiome and the vine, like I've told before, following planting.

And we do capture those pathogen from the nursery to the vineyard. And they are evolving in the vineyard just and we can detect them. But under no stress conditions the vines are doing just fine. So every year a vine will lay out new wood, right? It will grow out some wood. The trunk gets bigger and bigger.

 the fight between the trunk disease pathogen and the vine is if the vine can grow wood faster than it loses some to trunk disease, then it's fine, you know, it will be able to survive. Plants and grapes are able to compartmentalize the infection. They lay out walls to compartmentalize infection, and if they do that successfully, you know, Then they will survive now when you have a stress factor that comes into play and here you have to Go back and define well define stress this is where we go back and go back to your question about what stress are we talking about?

Heat a drought I think overcropping can be one of them also, when growers take tend to push the vine early on after the establishment to get into production quickly after two years. I view this as a stress factor, so this will influence the microbiome of the vine, living of the microbiome living inside the vine, and as a result, it will influence disease outcome.

[00:29:34] Craig Macmillan: I will not look at grapevines the same way. , is there one thing, one takeaway from this conversation that you'd like growers to hear

[00:29:44] Philippe Rolshausen: what we're trying to do is to identify cultural practices that are beneficial to production.

I think you, you have to look at it from a probiotic or prebiotic. Standpoint, just like we do for humans, you know. when you look at the prebiotics, those are similar to the cultural practices that you implement in vineyards to support the presence of beneficial organisms. that can be, you know, adding compost to your soil or cover cropping because they provide some benefits to the microbes living in the soil, and as a result, the microbe associated with the vine.

that's one of them. The probiotic is the addition of single microbes to the system identify which one of those probiotics using the metagenomics approach. And we've made some some stride in, in, in that research, we've identified several organisms that are beneficial to the plant and that are antagonistic to some of the disease.

So for instance Pierce's disease we've identified several organism living inside the vines that are antagonistic to PD. And today we are testing those organism in field trials at UC Davis. Because we've demonstrated that they, they work on the greenhouse condition. And now we moved on to field trials.

And when we inoculate those beneficial organisms to, or those probiotics to vine, they are able to stimulate the vine health in some capacity, or are being antagonistic to the pathogen in some capacity. And the vines are able to sustain the disease. So, the takeaway message from that is that we are making progress, you know, understanding what those probiotics and prebiotics are for viticulture.

[00:31:39] Craig Macmillan: That is great. and I'm really happy, That you're doing this work. It takes time Oh yeah, It takes time. Absolutely, that's, and that's, part of what we do here is we, bring people kind of what the future is looking like and what's possible because if you understand it, then when it does come along, The learning curve is already hopefully down the road a little ways. doing your homework, basically. thank you in your lab. This is really exciting. interesting stuff. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:32:09] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, they can go to the University of California, Riverside Botanical and Plant Sciences website. I'm a faculty member, so they will find me there.

I have also my personal website. Rolshausen. Slash lab. com. The problem is like the spelling of my name, right? It's not easy to do.

[00:32:27] Craig Macmillan: We'll have a link to that show page plus A a number of your recent publications.

[00:32:33] Philippe Rolshausen: Yeah, we have several publications about what we've talked about today.

We have just had one released about how pruning practices affect also the microbiome and, and disease. So. You know, this is an active area of research. I'm not the only one doing this. Like I've said, I've collaborated with Dario Cantu at UC Davis. And I think he should be mentioned because he's doing some excellent work.

And we are a great team working together. As a cooperative extension specialist, I collaborate with others. I collaborate with other faculty. And this is a collaborative work that I'm talking about. I'm not the only one,

[00:33:11] Craig Macmillan: there's a network. want to thank our guest, Philippe rolshausen. He is professor of cooperative extension with the university of California riverside and doing some very exciting work. And thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe.

[00:33:24] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that was great. Thank you for having me.

 

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

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[00:00:33] Now let's get into some. Some tips for greener gatherings.

[00:00:37] Consider getting a. A living tree rather than a cut or artificial tree. With the right tree and. The proper care it can survive the holiday season and then be planted on your property.

[00:00:47] Use led lights for decorating your space. They use up to 90%, less energy than traditional incandescent. Bulbs. And can last up to 25 times longer. At an. Average of 30 cents a kilowatt powering 500 incandescent. C9 bulbs, eight hours a day for 30 days. It would cost $294. While the same five. 500 led bulbs would only cost $37.80. That's also sustainable savings for your pocket book. Plus many led lights have features like dimming. Color adjusting and motion detection. So you can customize your look and. Use them for other occasions.

[00:01:27] Do you have holiday events on your calendar?. There are many options for biodegradable plates. Bowls and cutlery. Add them to your compost heap or. Send them to an industrial composting facility. Just be sure not to recycle. Recycle them organic materials can damage recycling equipment. And don't put them in the trash organic waste and landfills could produce methane gas.

[00:01:49] And who. Who doesn't love local goods. Invite local vendors into your retail space. Base. To give your guests some locally sourced gift options bonus. Points. If they use natural or recycled materials. Alternative. you could opt for the gift of a local experience like dinner for two a spa day or certificate to a local shop.

[00:02:08] Oh, the ribbons and bows, but where do they go?

[00:02:11] When it comes to sustainability over the holidays. Days we need to address packaging.

[00:02:15] For those of us who aren't the paper and ribbon collector. At the gift exchange, use. Just wrapping materials can be recycled. Plus some can even. And be composted.

[00:02:24] Make sure. You check out. At the show notes to link to this article called holiday marketing. Marketing tips. To review an awesome chart. To help you gift. Wrap the Greenway. It covers what kinds of wrapping paper? Tissue paper, gift bags, boxes, ribbons, and bows can. Can be recycled. Composted. Plus some creative alternatives like wrapping. Packaging in a tea towel. And making your own paper bows.

[00:02:50] Here's a bonus tip. Check out. Tip number two. In the five sustainable tasting room habits, marketing tip. To learn a few more responsible recycling practices.

[00:03:00] This February. We'll continue the celebrate. Celebration of sustainable wine and we'd love for you to come celebrate with us at reciprocal, February over 30 sip certified brands have. I already joined.

[00:03:12] And you can join to. Share. ReSIProcal club tastings with participating brands to increase your traffic and. Connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability.

[00:03:21] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

 

Nearly perfect transcript by Descript.

 

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/pecan-pie/happy-holiday-swing

License code: QEFYRHVU5DRTFHPW

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Join ReSIProcal February 2025
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• Tips for Greener Holiday Gatherings
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet 
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Consumer demand for transparency and sustainability of their food system is leading to more and more agrochemical restrictions to address concerns for pollinators, noenicitinoids, and drift. Additionally, ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) investors are putting pressure on the chemical industry to improve their metrics. Pam Marrone, Founder and CEO of Marrone Bio Innovations outlines the market, status, and potential for biologicals in this excerpt from our 2020 Sustainable Ag Expo.

Bringing a new pesticide to market can cost upwards of 300 million dollars and takes an average of 21 years. These challenges have big companies looking at new technologies like biologicals. Bringing a biological to market costs five to 10 million and can be accomplished in three to four years.

Growers are seeing that using an integrated solution creates a better final product. Biologicals offer new modes of action, the ability to spray up until harvest, and short reentry times. Plus, they can allow growers to improve soil health and reduce greenhouse gasses.  

References:

• 87: Developing New Winegrape Varieties  
• 94: Effective Vineyard Spraying (Rebroadcast)
• 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change
• Pesticidal natural products – status and future potential
• Marrone Bio
• SIP Certified
• Sustainable Ag Expo
• Tailgate | 1/14/2022 |  Salinity 101 - Science and Management of Increasing Salinity in a Drier Climate

97% of people start their search for a local business online (Linkedin, 2019). When someone looks up your business, what do they find? Are your images and videos up to date? Do you show what makes your brand special? Does your imagery convince searchers to pay you a visit?

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Now, if you are thinking that you do not love the photos that show up when you google your business, it may be time to update your imagery!

Your property is booming with interesting visuals that will entice future customers. Here are 3 categories to inspire your imagery refresh.

1. Showcase Your Values

70% of consumers want to know what the brands they support are doing to address social and environmental issues (Certus, 2019). Show them how your brand protects the people and the planet!

If you’ve completed your Sustainable Story worksheet, half of your work is done. Grab your worksheet and your camera to create a visual version of your story.

Electronic Worksheet | Printable Worksheet

Here's how to show your Sustainable Story:

·         Focus on one value per week. Share photos and videos throughout the week or compile them into one mega-post at the end of the week. This strategy gives you nearly two months of content for your social media, blog posts, and Wine Club communications.

·         People love animals. Snap pics or videos of your wildlife visitors: bees, owls, butterflies, grazing sheep, or cattle. Your audience will love to see the diversity of creatures that call your property home. 

·         Feature your vineyard manager or winemaker. Ask them to explain what’s sustainable about the task they’re doing, and why it’s important. Helping consumers understand specific sustainable practices and why they’re important can increase their willingness to pay more for a wine (Kathleen Kelley, The Pennsylvania State University, 2021)!

2. Show Them a Good Time

Have you ever visited your favorite business’s website only to realize the photos are outdated, or don’t sufficiently capture the atmosphere you know and love? Good imagery helps people to mentally put themselves in the space, and can ease anxieties they may have over entering a new environment.

Here’s how to replace outdated imagery to entice visitors:

·         Show off your romantic fireplace, mood lit cozy chairs, or a seating area overlooking the vineyard! Winetasting is an experience. A comfortable and inviting atmosphere makes all the difference.

·         Hosting an event? Guests wonder how to dress and if there will be seating. Share pictures of your guests having a good time at your next event to give valuable insights to future attendees! 

3. Take Them Behind the Scenes

A day in the wine industry may feel ordinary to you, but it is absolutely fascinating to the average consumer!

“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumer’s lack of knowledge about where their food comes from. When it comes to your brand, most people only see the finished product: what’s in their glass. They don’t know about all of the time and careful consideration that went into its production.

Here’s how to show them:

·         Walk your audience through the block-to-bottle process with photos and videos. Create a series that spans the year, and feature each process as it happens.

·         Give a glimpse into a day in the life! Show topping tanks, washing barrels, scouting for pests, a busy tasting room floor, and walking through the vines. Your audience will love a behind the scenes look at one of their favorite wine brands.

SIP Tip!

Include the whole team in this project! Ask everyone to take pictures and videos of the things they find most interesting. You’ll have tons of fresh, unique media to feature.

SIP Tip #2 (because it's too good not to share)!

Share your customers’ photos. User generated content is about as authentic as it gets. Sharing UGC has many benefits: it gives social proof to your audience, makes the creator feel part of your community, and gives you unique content!

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, download the worksheet, watch the videos, and you are ready to tell your Sustainable Story!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards
• SIP Smart Training online course
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team

Plant SAP analysis gives farmers insight into how the plant can take up and mobilize nutrients. Traditional tissue testing is usually done at the top of the plant, sampling only the youngest leaves. SAP Analysis is actually a pair of tests, comparing nutrients in young and old leaves to see what is being taken up today and how the nutrients are moved around. Test results compare levels in young and old leaves across 24 different nutrients. One important comparison is Nitrogen efficiency, so the farmer can see how much Nitrogen is actually being taken up by the plant and calculate a cost analysis. Learn more about SAP Analysis and also some fascinating research about the relationship between silica, iron, and aluminum in grapevines.

References:

• 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability
• 113: Microbial Inoculants for Soil Health
• Jenny Garley on LinkedIn
• Making Nitrogen & Potassium Fertilizer Decisions in the Vineyard
• NEWAGE Laboratories
• SIP Certified
• Sustainable Ag Expo

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Sour rot is a disease complex composed of various yeast, fungi, and bacteria that ferment grape juice released from wounded berries. Megan Hall has demonstrated that the symptoms of sour rot will only develop when fruit flies (Drosophila spp.) are present. Spraying antimicrobial materials with an insecticide weekly from 15° Brix until harvest has shown success at stopping the advance of sour rot.

References:

• Megan Hall’s Cornell University Page
• Summer Bunch Rot (Sour Rot) Pest Management UC IPM Pest Management Guidelines

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Doug Beck, Science Advisor for Monterey Pacific Inc. in Monterey County, talks about the different types of technology including dendrometers, multi-spectral imaging, ArcGIS, Time-Domain Reflectrometry, iPhones, and more.

References:

• California Irrigation: Verizon, ITK Team Up with 3 Vineyards for Affordable Solution
• Ceres
• CropTrak
• Monterey Pacific, Inc.
• Ranch Systems
• Terravion
• Tule Technologies
• VineMetrics

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Pierce’s Disease is caused by bacteria spread by xylem sucking insects. The bacteria move quickly throughout the vine causing disease which blocks the flow of liquid through the plant. Symptoms of leaf scorching – leaves that are curled and dried up on the edges - show up mid-summer. This pathogen is successful because plant does not recognize that it is there and does not mount a good defense.

Steven Lindow, Professor of Plant Pathology at the University of California Berkley is a plant pathologist and microbial ecologist. He and his team are researching other bacteria that can grow in the grapevine that mysteriously sensitize them to the Pierce’s Disease pathogen. Once inoculated with the new bacteria the plant induces its innate immune system to combat Pierces Disease. This process works like a vaccine although the bacteria itself does not cause a direct action.

Naturally found in onions, the bacteria can be applied in a spray with a surfactant. Current research indicates that this process will need to be repeated annually. As the EPA considers beneficial bacteria a pesticide, Lindow is pursuing the registration process so this technique can be used commercially.

References:

• Biological Control of Pierce’s Disease of Grape by an Endophytic Bacterium
• Caroline Roper, Associate Professor of Plant Pathology & Plant Pathologist, University of California Riverside
• Cell-cell signaling controls Xylella fastidiosa interactions with both insects and plants
• Steven Lindow, Professor of Plant Pathology, University of California Berkley
• SIP Certified
• Use of a Green Fluorescent Strain for Analysis of Xylella fastidiosa Colonization of Vitis vinifera

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Leading expert Dr. Andrew Landers of Cornell University discusses his more than thirty years of research and development on pesticide sprayer technology to reduce pesticide use through accurate, efficient delivery of the product to the plant.

References:

• 2015 Precision Agriculture Workshop (Video)
• Andrew Landers Webpage
• Effective Vineyard Spraying | Andrew Landers
• Effective Vineyard Spraying Online Educational Module (DPR CE credit available)
• Pesticide Application Technology at Cornell
• Sustainable Ag Expo
• SIP Certified
• Waste Not, Want Not!: Recent advances in technology for the precise spraying of pesticides (Video)

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

This podcast is an excerpt of the talk Dr. Charlotte Decock delivered at the 2017 Sustainable Ag Expo on understanding soil health - what soil health is, how to increase it, and how to measure it. Dr. Decock is an Assistant Professor Cal Poly - Earth & Soil Sciences. Charlotte Decock holds a faculty position in soil health and fertility at Cal Poly. Her teaching and research focus on sustainable fertilizer and soil management in California’s specialty crops. She earned a Ph.D. in Soils and Biogeochemistry from UC Davis and a M.Sc. in Environment Engineering from Ghent University (Belgium). During the last 10 years, her research has focused on soils and soil health. Currently her work focuses on which soil health indicators are most relevant to cropping systems in California.

References:

• 19: Healthy Soils Program (Podcast)
• Charlotte Decock
• Floor Management for Soil Health
• NRCS Soil Quality Test Kit
• NRCS Soil Quality Test Kit Guide
• Sustainable Ag Expo

 

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

While consumers name food and beverage as one of the most important industries when it comes to sustainability, more than 1 in 4 US adults said they don't know what makes a product sustainable (2022 Morning Consult, What Sustainability Means to Consumers). There is a need for consumer education on sustainability, and this is a great opportunity for your brand!

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

You can help educate your customers by sharing specific things that your brand does to be sustainable. Build a bond over your mutual care for the health of the people and the planet!

Sharing your practices is easy. Just reference the Sustainable Story worksheet!

The brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet is a simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Plus, we are inspiring you by sharing what likeminded brands are doing to care for the people and the planet.  

As a vineyard and winery on California's Central Coast, Shale Oak embraces Water Management as a top sustainability initiative. Here is just one of the things they do to help conserve water.

Water Management at Shale Oak

One of California’s biggest sustainability concerns is water. In 2022, about 75% of California was declared to be in a severe drought.

Shale Oak addresses this critical resource concern by using their tasting room and winery roof to capture rainwater.

This water is stored in five 100k-gallon water cisterns atop their hill, and is used throughout the year to deficit irrigate their 5-acre vineyard and maintain landscaping during the drier months.

Deficit irrigation is a water management strategy that helps limit water usage by being very meticulous with watering schedules. Shale Oak relies on mother nature to supply the vast majority of the water used at their operation, and they are able to give the vines supplemental irrigation at critical stages during their life cycle.

Sustainability is a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot these days, but what does it really mean? Shale Oak believes that true sustainability is implementing farming practices that can be passed down for generations to come – practices that will keep their great-great-grandchildren in business, too!

Shale Oak helps to lessen the demand on California's water supply by reducing the amount of water they need to pump into their vineyard. Proudly telling their Sustainable Story surrounding Water Management practices helps their customers know that they are supporting a business that cares about protecting natural resources, and inspires their peers and future generations to follow suit!

Does Your Team Know Your Sustainable Story?

Need an easy way to help your team talk about your sustainable practices?
Use the Our Sustainable Story worksheet!

Go through the worksheet as a team and you will walk away with 7 specific sustainable practices to talk about during tastings and sales calls, use in your marketing and wine club material, and so much more!

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, to share the blog post about Shale Oak’s story, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic Filling
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team
• Water Management: Shale Oak

Understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Today we bring you a sneak peek into next week’s full-length episode to share the marketing strategy you’re not using.

Defining consumer purchasing behavior is exactly what Kathy Kelley, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University loves to do. In her studies, she has found that sustainability is very important to customers however it can mean different things to different people. While 7 out of 10 adults in the United States consider purchasing food and beverage with a sustainability component a priority, one-fourth of these respondents could not articulate sustainability. This gives the industry a great opportunity to better communicate what sustainability means.

Communicating sustainability should be incorporated into a brand’s DNA from point A to point B through all marketing channels including face-to -face, social media, print, and website. Storytelling is a great way to convey your brand values because consumers are more likely to remember stories. By describing specific practices and why they are important, you set yourself apart from the competition and create an emotional connection with your consumers. Kathy’s research on sharing cover cropping practices found that customers were willing to pay one to four dollars more per bottle after learning about the specific sustainable practices.

The Seasons of Sustainability: Winter

Here are some great practices you can share with your consumers to tell that block-to-bottle story. Use these activities to create blog posts, social content, and tasting room talking points. It’s this type of content that captivates and educates.

Here are some sustainable practices SIP Certified brands do during the winter:

• Plant cover crops to prevent erosion, help rain penetrate, and provide natural fertilizer.
• Spread compost to release fertilizer and inoculate the soil with beneficial microorganisms.
• Prevent erosion with straw or hay bales. 
• Compare water bills and look for increases or anomalies.
• Taste and top tanks and barrels, update post-fermentation analysis, and regularly monitor Free SO2 and Volatile Acidity levels.
• Schedule bottling and begin blending trials.

Tune in on December 15 to hear the whole interview and get more tips on how to determine your customer demographic and refine your marketing.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, to download the seasons of sustainability PDF, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be marketing tool
• Kathy Kelley
• Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices
• Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing
• Seasons of Sustainability
• SIP Certified
• What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult
• Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: You're tasting room is more than just a place to try your wines. It is also what your guests visualize when they hear your name or senior wine on the shelf. And it's what they tell their friends and family about when they recall their last visit.

[00:00:14] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified, we know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:32] Does your tasting room offer a memorable experience?

[00:00:36] There are so many ways to make wine tasting special for tasters of any kind. Templeton based Castro Cellars has it down. They're tasting room constantly offers unique opportunities for visitors to learn something new and make memories.

[00:00:51] The first two examples are for the music lovers. Every Sunday from may through October. . We're hosts, lazy locals. These free concerts invite music, lovers and wine enthusiasts to wind down and enjoy an evening of entertainment. While sipping their sustainably produced wines.

[00:01:08] And if one band isn't enough. Guests can make a weekend of it at the Whale Rock Music and Arts Festival. This all ages, summer event welcomes visitors to enjoy live music, local vendors, yoga and beverages galore, including wine, beer, cider, and spirits.

[00:01:25] In addition to providing a unique tasting and entertainment experience, the event has an altruistic purpose. Proceeds from the Fest are donated to the Templeton Instrumental Music Boosters Association. A volunteer organization that is dedicated to enhancing the experiences of Templeton high school musicians.

[00:01:43] The second two activities are for the active

[00:01:46] Wine tasting doesn't just have to be tasting wine.

[00:01:49] Offer an opportunity to get active.

[00:01:52] Castoro Cellars has an all level yoga class led by their in-house Yogi Lauren Udsen. It is the perfect way to start the day after the one hour class, students are invited to enjoy a delicious brunch and sparkling beverages.

[00:02:05] To keep the blood pumping guests can get up close to the vines at the Whale Rock Disc Golf course, this 18 hole course. Is set in their, SIP certified and organically farmed Whale, Rock vineyard.

[00:02:17] And the final two experiences are for the learners. Many vineyards offer tours. They're a great way to show off your vines and educate your guests about your unique history and farming practices. Why not kick it up a notch.

[00:02:30] Vine cycle e-bike vineyard tours offer . Castoro's tourists, the opportunity to learn about their sustainable and organic farming practices while ebiking through the vineyard. After the two hour cycle guests relax, tableside and enjoy wine tasting and fresh lunch from the daily food truck.

[00:02:48] Some people who are new to the world of wine are intimidated by all there is to know. Castoro also offers intimate, informative classes to teach the basics of wine tasting. Students gain an understanding of wines, intricacies and develop the tasting skills. They need to get the most out of their future tasting experiences.

[00:03:07] So let us know, how will you make your next tasting and experience?

[00:03:12] Listen up SIP certified members. Offer your club members, a chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is the annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability.

[00:03:33] We're enrolling participants now. Just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip- 2025. To get signed up.

[00:03:44] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript. 

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Join ReSIProcal February 2025
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet 
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi, commonly abbreviated to AMF, coevolved with plants from 500 million to one billion years ago. Fossil evidence shows AMF in existence back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Paul Schreiner, Research Plant Pathologist at USDA-ARS in Corvallis Oregon explains that grapes are a very receptive host for AMF and their symbiotic relationship benefits both organisms. AMF helps plants obtain nutrients like potassium and phosphorous. The plant provides AMF with sugars and fatty acids. AMF lives both inside and outside of the plant. Inside the plant, they form arbuscules inside the root cell. These structures look like little trees and increase surface contact dramatically. Outside the plant, AMF mines for nutrients, likely releases carbon, and prevents soil erosion with its root hair-like structure.

Listen in to learn the practices you want to use, and not use to increase AMF populations.

References:

• 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines
• 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health
• 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost
• Article Abstract: The diversity of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi amplified from grapevine roots (Vitis vinifera L.) in Oregon vineyards is seasonally stable and influenced by soil and vine age
• Paul Schreiner, Oregon State University Courtesy Appointment
• Paul Schreiner on ResearchGate
• USDA-Agricultural Research Service Publications

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Paul Schreiner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS in Corvallis, Oregon. And today we're going to talk about our arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Thanks for being on the program.

 

Paul Schreiner  0:11 

Thank you for having me, Craig, happy to be here and talk about one of my favorite subjects.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:17 

Obviously, can we just go with AMF, we'll just jump right to that. Yes. Because if I have to arbuscular too many times today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash.

 

Paul Schreiner  0:27 

It's a tough one. And it's back in the old days, it used to be called vesicular, arbuscular mycorrhiza. So it was even harder.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:34 

Yeah, it was even hard. We're not in the old days. Whenever a bunch of scientists were sitting around and going, like, you know, what the V this just too much. Can we get into three words, you know, was that big national meeting of mycologist. All right. So let's just go for you studied EMF for a long time. And you have stayed in the field. So you've studied vineyards? Let's start the very beginning. So what are AMF? And what kinds of roles do they play in the soil and interacting with plants?

 

Speaker 2  1:00 

AMF are, as you said, arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So there are a group of fungi that evolved a really long time ago, estimates are from at least 500 million to a billion years ago.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:15 

Wow.

 

Speaker 2  1:16 

Yeah, that the billion number comes from some molecular clock kind of work, which, you know, is based on mutations in DNA that might be slightly overestimated, but there's fossil evidence that shows them at 450 million years ago. That's a really long time. You know, that's, that's what dinosaurs were around.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:35 

Early dinosaurs if we had time later. I want to know how paleo Micology where I How do you find fungi, but we don't have time for that right now. But if we can come back to that, that's mind blowing.

 

Unknown Speaker  1:48 

Yeah, we can.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:49 

Go ahead.

 

Paul Schreiner  1:50 

Yeah. So one thing I should say I think that's helpful is there's more than one kind of mycorrhizal fungi group, basically, right? The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are this older group, or they evolved a very long time ago, and there's been a long period of coevolution with plants. And what's happened is the arbuscular mycorrhiza, which is the kind that grapevines form. Most of our crop plants also form arbuscular mycorrhizal that mycorrhizal group can no longer grow or complete their lifecycle by themselves on their own, they require a host plant to get carbon to survive, there's a whole bunch of other kinds of mycorrhizal fungi. The most important besides the arbuscular would be what we typically call Ecto mycorrhizal fungi and the Ecto are typically on forest trees, especially in temperate and boreal regions. Interestingly enough, a lot of the trees in the tropics are am or arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So, it is important to just think about that, because some people, when they hear Mycorrhizal, they automatically assume one or the other Ecto or am or arbuscular. It's even far more complicated than that, because there's like five or six other types of mycorrhizal fungi that different plant groups associate with. However, the mycorrhizal fungi that I studied the arbuscular type are the most prevalent, they're the oldest. And you know, it's kind of an interesting thing, science wise that, based on our best information, they evolved, the whole world was one big continent, right? That's when they really radiated and evolved rapidly, I can get a sequence out of grapefruits. That's a mycorrhizal arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus. And it'll match 100% to a sequence in Europe somewhere, or in South America somewhere on any other crops. And, you know, so that's kind of an interesting thing.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:39 

That's a question. And so if we have that kind of similarity in different parts of the world, does that make the research that's done either in on vines in another continent? Or on a different crop? Does that is that useful for understanding how these things work in advance?

 

Paul Schreiner  3:56 

Certainly, yeah. Especially in the last, I'd say 20 years, because we've developed molecular tools to really delve into evolutionary questions and DNA, those kinds of things. Were starting to separate that group of fungi with a finer tooth comb, if you will, right. In a very broad sense, there was this massive radiation during Pangea, and then all the continents separated, a lot of that genetic material is very, very similar. However, there is still evolution going on. It's just you have to look harder for it. And you have to do whole genomes. That's not something that I do. I'm much more on the practical side of agriculture. But I tried to stay in tune with all that. This group of fungi traditionally were thought to be asexual. Now, we think there might be some sort of sexual phase, but it's unclear and not clearly demonstrated yet. We're learning more all the time. But it's also a slow, kind of a slow process. Their interest intractable to study this group of fungi a little bit because they do rely on a host plant to complete their lifecycle. So like, we can't culture them and put them in a lab. So were grown on petri dishes, you know, that kind of thing. They have to be grown with a plant. So we've developed ways to do that. But it does present challenges.

 

Craig Macmillan  5:10 

Yeah, how do you do that.

 

Paul Schreiner  5:11 

And this is really important for this group of fungi. From a practical sense, you have to grow them on a plant companies that produce mycorrhizal inoculum have this kind of fungi, the arbuscular type, they are growing them on plants. Typically, they're doing that in a some kind of either soil or soilless mix, and producing that in a greenhouse. And what like when I grow cultures of these fungi, we grow them on plants. One of the challenges with this group of fungi that relates to all this is that they're also ubiquitous around the globe, pretty much anywhere you have plants, these fungi are are there, the diversity is different in different places, of course, and there probably are some specialists, you know, groups, for example, that might be in more tropical climates versus more boreal climates. But I mean, we're still just beginning to understand that kind of information with this group of fungi. You asked also, what role do they do in terms of soil ecology or plant ecology? There's no question. The biggest role that this fungi plays is in helping plants obtain phosphorus. There is evidence of uptake of other nutrients, particularly those nutrients that are more immobile in soil. And that's why phosphorus is one in particular, but Potassium is another nutrient that's not super immobile in soil, they help take up potassium, they also help take up copper, zinc, I'd say those four are probably the top. However, they also play a role in nitrogen uptake in some plants. You know, we have addressed this in grapes with my former student, Tian Tian, who's now a farm advisor in Southern California working on table grapes, part of her thesis work was looking at the nitrogen impact on mycorrhizae, and how they help with nitrogen uptake. And we're continuing that work to some degree now with my new student. So far, we've not been able to show that the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are helping grapevines take up nitrogen. However, lack of evidence doesn't mean it can't happen. Other groups have shown in other plant systems that they do help the plants take up nitrogen. But still even even though that's true, without question, Phosphorus is the main thing that this group of fungi helps plants obtain from soil, you know, and phosphorus is a really critical thing, because yeah, phosphorus reserves are running out, you know, we've been mining basically guano, right? I mean, that's our main source of phosphorus all around the world. I just read an article it was in the New Yorker the other day, about phosphorus. I'm glad it's, you know, being highlighted again, because, you know, some people think 20 years from now, we're going to be out of phosphorus.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:40 

I think so.

 

Paul Schreiner  7:41 

And we're going to be in a world of hurt. Yeah. So it's hard to know for sure. Other people estimate we've got hundreds of years, but I don't know how good these estimates are. But helping plants get phosphorus means we don't need as much phosphorus to apply as a fertilizer. This is becoming an issue for basically the whole globe and human production. Yeah, their biggest role is Phosphorus, they also probably help do other things in plants, which I can kind of go down a list if you want.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:07 

Well, before we do that, I do want to do that. Because I think that that's crucial because a number of ideas have come up and some I think are probably accurate. Some I think are not, but I don't know, AMF, it's a parasite or it's a symbiotic organism?

 

Paul Schreiner  8:21 

Yeah there symbionts.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:23 

Okay, there's symbionts. Now, how does the plant and the fungi interact? Are there things that go into the root or the root is coded by something? Or how does that work?

 

Paul Schreiner  8:34 

Yeah, so that's, it's a pretty interesting process. If you start at the very beginning of a naked root, let's say, you know, a root does not colonize this starting to grow in soil. It sends out signals that the fungus consents, or the fungi, you know, there's more than one fungus in this group. Some of those signals, we already know what those are, like Striga lactones are one for example, you know, complicated term, but it's just a particular group of compounds plants make, the fungi can sense that. And they can grow towards the root, you know, the hyphy of the fungus, when it touches the root or makes contact with the root, it forms what's called an apex thorium, and then it makes a penetration peg and can basically punches through the wall of the root. This is the same way that fungal pathogens, you know, who are bad fungi, let's say right, they also use the same kind of mechanism. And typically when that's happening, you know, there's enzymes involved, bits of the cell wall of the plant and or some of its cuticle get kind of chewed up by enzymes and it releases certain compounds and then the plant can say, Oh, I know this one's a bad guy, or sometimes a plant is producing enzymes, for example, kinase that's trying to degrade the fungus itself and then you release certain other signal compounds, so the plant can sense that and in certain pathogens. We know that a very specific metabolite can be sensed by the plant and it stimulates the plant to respond in a defense response with the mycorrhizal fungi. The defense response is repressed.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:00 

Okay, oh.

 

Paul Schreiner  10:01 

Yeah, and so part of that is probably the kinds of chemicals that the and fungi have that are being released, you know, through these various enzymatic interactions have yet to be recognized by the plant as as the bad guy. Anyway, that's, that's maybe getting a little too into the weeds. But yeah, it all starts in the same way like a pathogen trying to get in or even, you know, there's a group of parasitic plants that form these things called hostaria, that attack roots of other plants. Same kind of process.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:31 

It sounds to me like there's an enzymatic reaction, and then also a signaling reaction, which would probably be some kind of a protein, I would guess it's complicated, or it's a feedback thing in that, oh, I've been poked, oh, I'm gonna do this, Hey, wait a minute, this is okay. And then they kind of settles into a balance, I guess. Is that fair to say?

 

Paul Schreiner  10:49 

Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. It's really complicated. And I mean, we only are beginning to understand the way they communicate. You know, there's a whole new class of compounds called effector proteins, which are secreted by different organisms and soil plant can recognize a lot of those, it crosses many things like even goes to nematodes, right? Like this is all kind of newer stuff that we're learning. But the bottom line is, the am fungi get in because they don't stimulate a defense response in the plant. And that's because there's been at least 500 million years of coevolution the plant knows these guys are okay, these are the good guys. Once they're inside, they grow throughout the cortex of fine roots. And then they form these things called arbuscules. And that's where they get their name. So the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi form arbuscles, our bus skills are basically like a little tree, if you can see a picture of it, it looks like a little tree inside a root cortical cell. It's just basically a way that both the fungus and the plant increase their surface area contact by like, a huge amount, you know, like, like, imagine what a tree looks like above ground, you know, like, especially without the leaves on the wintertime is a great time. That's exactly what it arbuscular Looks like in miniature inside a root cortical cell, the plant membrane grows all the way around that there's all kinds of activity that arbuscule cell is super active, because there's a lot of metabolic things happening. And that's where the plant and the fungus are exchanging nutrients,

 

Craig Macmillan  12:17 

then then exchange is cell wall to cell wall. It's not puncturing into a cell, or is it punching into? Oh, heck, what's the word I'm looking for, a pipeline?

 

Paul Schreiner  12:28 

No, the and fungi don't get into the vascular tissues of the plant, they actually colonize these cortical cells, they're sort of like, if you think about leaves, leaves the cells, we think about most of the mesophyll, or the spongy mesophyll. They're the ones that are doing photosynthesis, right? In the root cells that are most active in the fine roots are the cortical cells. That's where most of the activity is happening. So the fungi colonize there, they form these arbusculs which is, I mean, they're, they're amazing structures, they're very cool. They're short lived, like, a lot of times in arbuscular, will form, develop, and then degrade within, say, a week to 10 day period, you know, so it's like a fairly rapid turnover during that you increase the surface contact between the two organisms, but there's always still a membrane on the fungal side and a membrane on the plant side that keeps those two organisms separate, you know, their cytoplasm doesn't mix. You know, that would be weird, kind of, you know, would be weird. Yeah, we just don't see that in biology, you know, they really have much greater metabolic activity in those arbuscular cells. So what happens is, the fungus is giving phosphorus to the plant in this process, and other nutrients. And then in exchange, the plant is giving the fungus sugars. And we now know also fatty acids. Yeah, that's been a recent discovery in the last two decades. Anyway, I can't remember exactly when it came out. We now know because of genome sequencing efforts, that this group of fungi lack the ability to make fatty acids, they actually get those from the plant as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:01 

So we've got the arbuscules on the roots. That's kind of the structure, we've got the peg in there. Now what's going on away from the roots? Are these big long, multi celled single identifiable organisms, or is it kind of a community or what what's going on?

 

Paul Schreiner  14:19 

There are different fungi. Okay, so there's multiple species, a single root can have many species of fungi inside it. However, those species also probably mark out some territory. This part is still a little bit unclear because it's really hard to pinpoint this stuff. Just as an example, our research vineyard here at Oregon State University that I work on, even though I'm ARS I also work in in part of OSU, our research vineyard. I think we found 19 Different mycorrhizal fungi. colonizing the groups, the roots of the grape vines, you know, there's a fair number, how they actually interact on a very tiny scale like within an individual single individual root is it's hard to know for sure, that's again Getting off into the weeds a bit.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:01 

Not so much because I'm going somewhere with this.

 

Paul Schreiner  15:04 

I want to get back to your question though about what's happening outside because that's really critical. Yeah, what's happening inside is we have these aruscules and hyphae growing inside the root, and it can be, it can be very intense, especially in Grapes. Grapes are a super host, in my view, they really love mycorrhiza they get heavily colonized. But then on the outside out in the soil, the naked hyphae, if you will, of the mycorrhizal fungi are exploring the soil. And that external phase we call extra radical hyphae, it actually is physiologically different than what's on the inside of the root. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but basically, the inside part has a different function than the outside part. And so the inside part is trying to get carbon from the plant give the plant phosphorus and other nutrients, the outside part is mining the soil for that phosphorus, exploring the soil, it also probably exudes a significant amount of its carbon into the soil and helps the soil microbial community get a carbon source as well. And these fungi seem to play a critical role in helping soil aggregate and or resist erosion, basically, I mean, the evidence of this is, is pretty clear. But we also know that roots do the same function, especially root hairs, you know, so one way to think about these fungi is they're, they're sort of like root hairs. Except they're even finer, you know, their job is to connect root to the soil and to the soil, water and nutrient supply

 

Craig Macmillan  16:30 

Two spatial questions. One, when they say they explore space, how deep do we find an organism? Do we find a fungus that's connected to a to a vine or plant, right? So how far down is it going? And then how far out in lateral space is it going?

 

Paul Schreiner  16:44 

People have studied this by using artificial system where we can put a screen for example, like we can grow a plant in a greenhouse in soil, have it be colonized by microbes and fungi, and then put a screen in place that the roots cannot cross. But the fungi can, you know, something below like, or I don't know, somewhere in the ballpark of 40 micron diameter screen, so very fine screen like a silk screen, the hyphae can grow in there. So like people have shown they can grow 15 or 20 centimetres away, no problem, you know, significant distance when you're talking about soil as far as how deep they go in soil, that varies a lot with the rooting depth of whatever the plant of interest is, or, you know, the ecosystem, we tend to see greater colonization in the, in the surface soil, which just fits everything else that happens in the surface soil, right? I mean, that's where more of the water and nutrients are being turned over. It's also you know, where the soil environment is more favorable to life, right, because of this whole soil structure, idea and porosity, allowing oxygen to get into the soil in a vineyard. Particularly, you know, we always talk about vineyards and how the roots go all the way to China kind of thing, right?

 

Craig Macmillan  17:52 

Until you hit clay or limestone.

 

Paul Schreiner  17:54 

Sometimes roots can go really far. I mean, 30 meters I've seen reported and get into, you know, basically rock, right? There's not too much mycorrhizal fungi down where we're there in rock, we did the study, again, it was at the research vineyard. And when you get into what is known as the sea horizon, in the soil, which we would typically think of as the subsoil, it's where it's more compact, there's less porosity, and it's pretty dense, right? And it's more like clay, colonization drops off a lot, you know, we might have 90% of roots are colonized in the topsoil. But in the subsoil might be 30%. That's because many things, one, the environment is just not suitable for life in general, at that depth, because it's compacted, there's less oxygen, it's a different environment.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:37 

And again, you've mentioned AMF need more than just a plant root, they need to be out in the environment, there needs to be oxygen, there needs to be water, there needs to be other, there needs to be a favorable environment for life period. Right now, one thing we've talked about water holding. In other interviews, we've talked about water holding capacity improves in fields that have a higher or more successful AMF population, and that you talked about aggregates, it's part of that picture. We've talked about nutrient movement particular phosphorus, one of the things that I've heard people just kind of say colloquially is that if you have a meaningful mix, whatever the popular population, ecosystem involving AMF, it's going to lead to greater stability in the vine, and give the vine an ability to tolerate drought stress a little bit better. Are you finding those things? Are those things true? Even if it's kind of anecdotal? I mean, you're scientist, so you don't like anecdotal probably. But

 

Paul Schreiner  19:33 

Yeah, so that's, you know, that's the interesting world of science in my world. I need to have evidence for what I say, especially, especially when it comes to publishing scientific papers, right?

 

Craig Macmillan  19:43 

Well, of course, yeah.

 

Paul Schreiner  19:44 

But then there's also opinion, you know, sometimes you can't show things in science. I mean, science isn't perfect, right? Mistakes happen, and some things are just more intractable and difficult to show, however, okay, on a broad scale, there's pretty good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi helped Plants tolerate drought stress better than non mycorrhizal plants when you know when they've been compared. So that has certainly a long term consequence that you might think would eventually relate to stability in some way.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:16 

So one of the reasons that I asked that is science, Applied Science, especially applied Agricultural Science often is moved by growers noticing something or having an image in their head about how something works. And then folks like you come in and say, Okay, well, let's find out. Another thing that I've heard people mentioned that I don't know is true or not, is do AMF actually move water into the plant? We know that they transport minerals, or they actually move water into the plant?

 

Paul Schreiner  20:42 

Yeah, that's a great question. The answer to that question at this point in time is, they don't move water in a way that we would like to think of it, they're not acting like a pipe, because their own cytoplasm is a, you know, it's a vital part of them, it's just like us, you know, like the inside of ourselves, we're not just gonna give that away, people used to think of them like, Oh, they're just pipes out there, and the water just flows right through them into the plant. Well, that's impossible, that just can't happen. What does happen potentially, is water moves on the external surface of the hyphae. Because similar to a plant root, they exude some carbon, they have some structure makes connection to soil water in the pores of soil. And so in theory, because these fungi are much finer diameter, let's say 50 to 100 times smaller in diameter than a root is, you know, fine root of a plant so they can get into smaller pores inside the soil and get access to soil water that the root may not be able to get access to. On top of that, there's potential especially because they help aggregate soil and help improve soil structure, they may actually in the long run, improve soil water holding capacity, because they're adding to that long term carbon storage of the soil. It's really well known that as you add organic matter to soil, you improve the water holding capacity of soil. The am fungi do do that. I mean, partly it's this bit of carbon that they exude into the soil rhizosphere itself or the we call it the micro rhizosphere. Even their turnover. So when they die, or when they're eaten by something else, they're also then contributing to that pool of soil carbon, and the more old and complex that carbon is, probably the more it's tends to be tied to soil, water and small pores. Yes, they do help, we can show that they help plants take up a little bit more water, but it's not a big deal. You know, it's kind of like let's say the plant on a given day use 10 liters of water and you let the plant go to the wilt point. Maybe the mycorrhizal plant got another 10 mils of water out of 10 liters, you know, it's not a huge amount.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:55 

They're not the pipeline, but they are changing the soil environment such that the water holding capacity is changing. And that makes it more water for the mines to pick up. So it's not that there is a pipeline through the mycorrhizal fungi but that it's changing the environment in a way that makes it more likely that the water will be held and that the mind then has it available.

 

Paul Schreiner  23:12 

Right and that that effect is small, it's hard to show because it's very small. The other thing that they probably help with the plants is that as soil dries, nutrients are harder to get. And particularly those nutrients that are more immobile and soil like phosphorus, a big part of why we see improved drought tolerance in a mycorrhizal plant is because they are accessing soil phosphorus better than a non mycorrhizal plant can and that's contributing to the overall drought tolerance of that plant. So some of our effects that we see are an indirect effect of improved phosphorus nutrition that goes across to any of the other functions that AMS might help plants do. Like another big category that I feel I should mention is there's good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi help plants resist or become more tolerant to other pathogens in the soil. So the bad guys or even nematodes, a lot of work has been done on this, you know, the experiments run the gamut, like they're there all over the place, because, you know, we're talking about really complex things. One of the things that we know, is that just improving the overall phosphorus nutrition of the plant and or other nutrients, sometimes it's, it might be another new nutrient that's limiting that gets you added tolerance to to any of these other effects, right? Whether it's drought, whether it's a root pathogen, even like insect feeding on above ground parts of the plant, you know, I mean, if you're in a better nutritional state, you're going to be better able to tolerate a lot of things. A lot of what happens with AMF is linked to their role in phosphorus, you know, so going back to this phosphorus story, some of my colleagues get mad at me because I they think I'm too opinionated about phosphorus. But I mean

 

Craig Macmillan  24:59 

You You're having beers with people. And they're like, Paul, when you get off the phosphorous thing?

 

Paul Schreiner  25:05 

Yeah, they're like, come on, Paul, you know, they play a role in nitrogen too.

 

Craig Macmillan  25:10 

Okay, so we're in at a time with a couple of things I just absolutely, positively have to hit on if we draw the big old box around this topic, we would say, AMF are beneficial for vineyards. Okay, so what kinds of things can I do as a grower to encourage a AMF and what kinds of things should I not do that might dink the AMF community?

 

Paul Schreiner  25:29 

Very good question. The most important thing probably is to think about AMF, before you plant a vineyard. And so like in some of the materials that I've I've, I've written about and published on, especially for like trade journals and trying to help growers, it's really important in my mind to separate pre plant versus post plant, and at the pre plant stage is really a time you should think about mycorrhizal fungi because that's the time. If they're not there, you've got a problem. But chances are, they're already there. It's also the pretty much the time that you can add mycorrhiza and they're going to do something, you have an opportunity to inoculate vines if you want when they go into the ground. The biggest thing about pre plant is what is the past history of that land, especially the recent couple of years if you've had plants on it, especially if their host plants for mycorrhizal fungi, which almost all of our crop plants are, even if it came out of say, forest land, and then was converted to vineyard. Typically, there's a AMF there because even in the forest, which are dominated by Ecto mycorrhizal trees, for example, here, and in the north, west, for example, there are still understory plants that rely on AMF. And so the AMF are there, normally, you don't have to inoculate. But knowing what the land history is, is very helpful. The worst thing you can do is of course, apply a fumigant, which we are doing much, much less now than we used to. Not that that will will stop entirely. But if you fumigate especially with like in the old days, methyl bromide was the main fumigant used, you'll kill the mycorrhizal fungi. And so you would want to inoculate if you did that. The other thing is if you have a really, really long period of fallow land, and when I say fallow, I mean fallow no weeds, nothing, most of our weed species also support AMF. So I mean, even having weeds on the ground before you plant a vineyard is going to keep the population up. And again, that goes back to the biology, this group of fungi that they can't grow on their own. And so eventually they'll be depleted in soil if there's no plants to keep feeding them. So that kind of relates back to the very beginning of our conversation, which is why this group of fungi is different. So like, basically avoid long fallow plant a cover crop of clover, for example, that's a good one, because Clover is very heavily colonized. It also provides nitrogen, which is good for vines, you know, especially at establishment and avoid fumigants. Once you get to the post plant side of things, I think the most critical things to think about are tillage, and then fertilizer use.

 

Craig Macmillan  27:56 

What happens there?

 

Paul Schreiner  27:59 

With tillage, you breakup the mycorrhizal network that's in the soil. And so like we talked about that external phase, or what we call the extra radical hyphae of this group of fungi, that phase is out in the soil and it actually survives and overwinters even for example, like you know, some of it dies back, but some of it remains if you keep destroying that with tillage. Eventually you reduce the population of AMF, there are a few fungi that seem to be much more tolerant of tillage. And these are some of our favorite lab rat ones, for example. Ones that are tolerant of disturbance have been ones that are most often done well in the laboratory and are easily easy to culture. Again, we're culturing on a plant but still similar kind of thing. So tillage is one thing. The fertilizer issue is I would avoid both high nitrogen and high phosphorus inputs. We have shown in some of my work if you apply phosphorus, for example, to the foliage, which some people like to do, you can reduce mycorrhizal colonization. It's all tied into the whole plant response to these this group of fungi, you know, plants evolved with the fungi, right? It's not just the fungi that were evolving. They know that the main function is phosphorus. So when the plant has high phosphorus status, it down regulates the colonization by this group of fungi. Well, when you get plants phosphorus, especially to the foliage, it sends a signal to the roots, I'm very happy, and it tends to reduce colonization.

 

Craig Macmillan  29:24 

Specifically, how many units of nitrogen are we talking about?

 

Paul Schreiner  29:28 

That gets into tricky territory.

 

Craig Macmillan  29:30 

You know, if I'm putting on a 777 am I am i doing a bad thing?

 

Paul Schreiner  29:35 

Probably not course, it also depends on the rate, you know, I mean, 777 But you're putting out 200 pounds per acre that's

 

Craig Macmillan  29:42 

Yeah, that's why use the term units.

 

Speaker 2  29:45 

Yeah, you know, and the thing about viticulture is we don't need as much nitrogen and as much phosphorus that as we do in other classic farming crops, you know, like the big the big crops corn soybean commodity. Yeah, commodity grapes are super cheap. super efficient at getting nutrients, other work that I do, which is actually more of more of my time spent on nutrition than it is on mycorrhizal fungi. But, you know, we've shown that high nitrogen is not necessarily a good idea in the vineyard, right. And most people know that. And almost intuitively, you don't want a massive canopy, that shading the fruit.

 

Craig Macmillan  30:19 

In a vineyard, if I'm putting on nitrogen at a replacement rate, so I'm looking at how many pounds per acre I took out, I'm guessing and how many pounds per ton that relates to taking in cycling from canes and leaves that fall on the ground and go into the soil. You know, most vineyards you're looking at not a lot. So I've looked at some organic systems that are putting in, you know, two pounds per acre, the highest I think I've ever seen was 25 pounds per acre. Eight is a pretty good number kind of on average total. It sounds to me like these replacement level rates, not the high rate, but the replacement level rates where we're, we purposely are trying not to get a bigger canopy, we're not trying to bump a vine. That sounds like those are fine.

 

Paul Schreiner  30:58 

I think so we've done work here, see, it was in Chardonnay, and also Pinot Noir. And we were putting out 20 and 40 pounds of N per acre. These are not high rates in in my view, especially when we look at agriculture as a whole right, we can see a little bit of a depression in mycorrhizal colonization, when we apply, say 40 pounds, or 60 pounds of nitrogen per acre, we don't wipe it out entirely, you know, the vines also can recover. The other thing is, the kind of nitrogen you put out may play a role as well. More soluble classic conventional fertilizers that have more soluble N and especially more soluble P will probably have a more negative impact. If you're putting out more organic sources of those fertilizers, because they're more complex, you know, they don't cause as quick of a response in the plant. And it does seem that that does not have as a negative impact on AMF, as the more soluble forms.

 

Craig Macmillan  31:58 

There we go. Now we're out of time, unfortunately, this could go on forever, you and I should get together sometime and just hang out talk about phosphorus all you want. What is one piece of advice that you would give to grape growers related to this topic, especially if they want to increase or maintain in AMF population in their vineyard?

 

Paul Schreiner  32:17 

You know, the most important thing is to be conservative with inputs. I think that's probably the the key thing conservative with both water inputs and nitrogen inputs and phosphorus inputs. You know, the role of fungicides, so far does not really appear to be a big deal. And again, we don't have time to go into all that. But the evidence that we've collected so far suggests that you know our fungicide spray programs, for example, which we're talking about controlling things in the canopy, I'm not seeing a clear effect on microns of fungi because of that. If you overwater over fertilize. That's when you're going to do damage to Microsoft fungi, you know that that's clear. And then the other piece of advice is think about it pre plant, because that's the time you can actually do something put a cover crop in prior to planting the vineyard and I bet 99% of the time, the mycorrhizal population that's there will be sufficient to colonize the vine roots and be healthy goes back to just very briefly the fact that I consider grape vines, a very, very receptive host for mycorrhizal fungi. I've looked at other crop plants, including other woody perennials, and grape vines are so heavily colonized. It's it's truly amazing.

 

Craig Macmillan  33:28 

That is cool. Where can people find out more about you? And or more about this topic? You mentioned research that's been published recently on some of these topics. Where can we find you?

 

Paul Schreiner  33:39 

So the easy way to find me is type my name Paul Schreiner. And grapevine will be in the title in the show notes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you just put my name and grapevine nutrition, or grapevine and AMS, I should pop up as the first thing on Google. But you can also just email me paul.schreiner@usda.gov. And I'm happy to provide for those that are more interested in getting into the weeds. I can provide you some lists of good references and whatnot. So I'm happy to do that.

 

Craig Macmillan  34:05 

That's fantastic. My guest today has been Paul Shriner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS. He's based in Corvallis, Oregon. This has been really fun for me. I hope it's fun for our listeners, too. This is such a hot topic. And so thank you very much for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Paul,

 

Unknown Speaker  34:22 

Thank you so much, Craig. It was great having this conversation

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jackie Dresser, Viticulture Extension Support Specialist at the Lake Erie Regional Grape Program talks about why estimating vineyard yields is so difficult and the methods she and her team are experimenting with to reach the Holy Grail of estimates that are within five percent of the final harvest. In part one of this two part interview, Jackie explains the Lake Erie region and program, why crop estimation is important depending on who you are in supply chain, the standard techniques, or lack of standard techniques to estimate yield, and how accurate some of these techniques can be.

References:

• Efficient Vineyard website
• Lake Erie Regional Grape Program website
• Predicting Harvest Yield in Juice and Winegrape Vineyards | Paolo Sabbatini, Imed Dami, G. Stanley Howell
• Theory and Assumptions Behind Sampling | Craig Macmillan
• Vineyard Yield Estimation | Brittany Kom & Michelle Moyer, WSU

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Three growers share their practices and experiences battling Powdery Mildew in their vineyards on the Central Coast. Sustainable practices including resistance management and customizing spray programs are discussed.

 

References:

• Inoculum Monitoring to Guide Mildew Management Podcast
• Inoculum Monitoring for Mildew Management
• Gubler/Thomas Model

 

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

 

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Weeds can compete with young vines and are hosts for some vineyard pests. Grant Cremers describes how he controls weeds through a combination of under-vine cultivation and herbicides at San Bernabe Vineyards. Topics include herbicide resistant weeds, reasons to avoid pre-emergent herbicides, cover crops for weed suppression, and the benefits of controlling weeds mechanically.

References:

• Cover crops for weed management
• Steel in the Field: A Farmer’s Guide to Weed Management Tools
• Steel in the Field: A Vineyard Team Tailgate Meeting
• “Vineyard Weed Management”- excerpt from Grape Grower’s Handbook by Ted Goldammer

 

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Conservation burning is a way of dramatically reducing greenhouse gasses and particulate releases from burning woody material like old grapevines. Biochar is a soil amendment that can hold water and nutrients in the soil for slow release to the plants. Raymond Baltar, Director of the Sonoma Biochar Initiative; Director of the California Biochar Association and  Biochar Project Manager at Sonoma Ecology Center explains how to execute a conservation burn and make biochar to reduce smoke and capture carbon.

References:

• “Biochar increases vineyard productivity without affecting grape quality: Results from a four years field experiment in Tuscany” | Scholarly article
• California Biochar Association
• Conservation Ag Burning  | UCCE Sonoma flyer
• “The Conservation Burn Technique” | Vineyard Team Technical Article
• Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project
• Sonoma Biochar Initiative
• Sonoma Ecology Center
• Randall Graham’s thoughts on biochar (Video)
• Raymond Baltar’s LinkedIn page
• Workshop: Conservation Burning & Biochar Production Workshop

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Wayne Wilxox, Professor Emeritus of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology at Cornell University, spent his career on the applied biology and integrated management of grapevine fungal diseases. Wayne looks at berry susceptibility changes throughout the season to determine when control programs need to be maximized. Ultimately, his applied research sought to discover what makes a “disease tick” and use that knowledge to learn how to better target the disease.

References:

• 47: Fungicide Resistance in the Vineyard | Walt Mahaffee (podcast)
• 54: Growing Grapes on Two Coasts | Mark Chien (podcast)
• 57: Wet Climate Viticulture | Frits Westover (podcast)
• Coincidence of maximum severity of powdery mildew on grape leaves and the carbohydrate sink-to-source transition
• Gubler-Thomas Model
• PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Grape Powdery Mildew
• Researchon sulfur on grapes – American society of vit
• SIP Certified Self-Assessment
• Tailgate: Managing Vine Mealybug in an Era of Leafroll
• Wayne Wilcox

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Emma Tessler, Founder & CEO of Ninety Five Media, has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect. Instead of trying to be everywhere, Emma suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video, and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use platform's data to see what people enjoy the most.

Resources:        

• 138: 5 Tips for Your Wine Brand's Social Media | Marketing Tip Monday
• 140: Does social media impact wine sales? | Marketing Tip Monday
• 144: Are you using the right message on social media? | Marketing Tip Monday
• 198: 3 Ways to Talk About Sustainability on Social Media
• Becoming an Industry Expert on Social Media
• Emma Tessler | LinkedIn
• Ninety Five Media
• Ninety Five Media | Instagram
• Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling Podcast
• Turn Your Expertise into More Sales by Becoming a Thought Leader on Social Media, with the Ninety Five Media Team (podcast)

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle.

Welcome to Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Bets Vukmanic executive director. 

In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery.

Speaks with Emma Tessler, founder and CEO of 95 Media. Emma has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect instead of trying to be everywhere. She suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms.

To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use the platform's data to see what people enjoy the most. 

We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, customers reported a higher preference for eco and social responsibility labels compared to nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard, winery, or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable Standards apply for certification today by going to SIP certified.org and click on Get certified Now. Let's listen in. 

[00:01:39] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Emma Tesler. She is the founder of 95 media. And today we're going to talk about social media. Not surprisingly welcome to the podcast, Emma.

[00:01:48] Emma Tesser: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today.

[00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: First of all, let's talk a little bit, get some kind of grounding. How would you describe your company? 95 media?

[00:01:55] Emma Tesser: We're a digital marketing agency and we really specialize in creating high converting content. We work with a lot of brands who are posting all the time and just simply not seeing results from that content. So that is usually where we come in and we build out customized strategy. High converting content, build that connection with their community and ultimately finally have their marketing convert into sales for them.

At a high level, 95 media is a marketing agency specializing in social media, email and podcast production.

[00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: I'm kind of a dinosaur. So what exactly comes under the umbrella of social media? Because that seems to be a pretty big area.

[00:02:37] Emma Tesser: It is, it definitely is a big umbrella. So when we talk about social media marketing, we're referring to any marketing content. Content that is marketing a brand on any of the social platforms we manage, profiles for brands on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TikTok a few other more specific ones to different industries.

And really social media marketing encompasses your content, your engagement with your audience, the data that comes in from the content. There are a lot of different. avenues when it comes to your marketing and social media in general, but it is broad. And I think that sometimes that's the overwhelming part about it for some individuals and founders, people who are looking to market a brand, but it really doesn't have to be that complicated.

You can really. own one platform really well and see better results by doing that than doing five not so well.

[00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Excellent. And different platforms with these companies, websites, et cetera, that you just discussed. And then content. I wanted to have you kind of elaborate on that a little bit because some things are videos, some things are just audio, some things are just text , what is content and what do we put in content?

[00:03:53] Emma Tesser: Well, content looks different as you said, , between different platforms. So there's always opportunity to repurpose content, but oftentimes that looks like reformatting content as well. I'm a really big believer in. Having consistent brand messaging across all of your content, all of your platforms.

And sometimes that looks like having the same messaging because when we have consistent messaging across every piece of content, it creates a consistent brand experience for our audience to know who we are and ultimately be able to identify our content without like our brand name on it, which is a whole other level of success.

When we look at the individual platforms, You know, Tik Tok is a video only platform. And over on LinkedIn, some people don't think that that's really a video platform, but in fact it is. And LinkedIn is really favoring video content to the point where they actually have a video only feed on the app.

Now that looks very similar to Tik Tok because they see the success that's happening over there, like every other platform. So what I would just encourage, if you're looking at content and you're thinking, Well, how do I do this on all the platforms and do it well? And it not be my entire life. I would look at creating one piece of content and then splitting it up into different formats.

For example, you could take one 30 second video on a topic of something that, you know, really well, and you could. Reformat that video to be long form. It could be short form. You can write a blog post about it. You can make it a carousel for Instagram. You can pick one photo and transcribe that video into your caption. You can make it into your Instagram stories. You LinkedIn article on it. There's so many ways to go about really looking at how can you repurpose your content and have so many different formats of just one idea.

[00:05:42] Craig Macmillan: Why is this important for business? Why can't I just go along like I've always gone along? Maybe I've got a website, put some stuff on there, print advertising, et cetera. Why is social media so important?

[00:05:57] Emma Tesser: Well, the reason it's so important is because the way that consumers are finding and discovering brands has shifted. Prior to, you know, call it five years really has been the biggest shift that we've seen on social, but really just this shift towards social media marketing, which has been in the works since about 2015 or so.

We used to discover brands through going to Google or through word of mouth. You know, we work with a lot of brands who come, we were like, We used to be just referral. Like we used to get all our business through referral, you know, local, this local, that, and it's just dried up and it's not working the same way it used to.

And that is because we're moving towards this culture of social search. There's data that shows that in the last 90 days, 91 percent of consumers used social media and only 84 percent of people went to a search engine like Google. So what. We used to discover on Google, there's actually more people discovering brands on Instagram , than they are in Google today.

So in order to stay competitive, in order to be found and to be showing up in the searches that people are typing in and using keywords that maybe you were once showing up on, on Google, you now need to have your content be showing up on Instagram, on Tik TOK, on LinkedIn. So in order to continue growing, it's really a non negotiable going into 2025 to have a social media presence and to have it. optimize to meet your consumer where they're at.

[00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: You may have actually kind of already touched on this or answered this. I was thinking that, you know, if you just have an Instagram account, does that count as a social media presence? Do I need to be on all these different platforms? And it sounds like what you're saying is it's better to kind of focus on one or two or three and do those really, really well, rather than try to be everywhere all the time for everybody.

[00:07:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah. And I say that because consistency is everything. So if you have the bandwidth for three separate posts per week, it is so much better to have those three pieces of content live on Instagram, then spread it out. So you have one on Instagram, one on LinkedIn, one on Tik TOK, because one post a week is not going to do. Literally anything for you. You need to have consistent quantity of content going out there.

So I would really look at one platform and optimize. And strategically approach that platform so that you're finally getting results there before you add on additional ones. Because you'll be able to take the data from that successful content to know what your audience is looking for and begin to just redo that type of content in different ways for another platform down the road.

[00:08:30] Craig Macmillan: A friend of mine does a lot of Instagram and she says I've got to have at least one thing per week, one thing per week. Is that a good time frame? Do I need to be posting more often, more frequently, shorter bits? What's the, what's the best strategy?

[00:08:43] Emma Tesser: So I don't recommend less than three posts to your feed every week. Less than three posts per week. Again, that's to your feed. That doesn't count like Instagram stories outside of that. But when we look at your feed, the reason why you want to have more content than once per week is because what happens when you post is that the algorithm puts your content out there and it's like, dangling it in front of your audience.

It's waiting for people to bite and engage with that piece of content. If they do, then that piece of content starts being shown to more people. If they don't, it then gets suppressed and the algorithm says, Oh, well, people aren't really liking this. We're not going to show it. But when you post more, you have more opportunities for people to bite and to get more people seeing your content. AKA brand awareness.

Really, every piece of content you're looking to increase your brand awareness because that's your top of funnel. You have to get more reach. You have to get more impressions in order to bring people down the sales funnel to the ultimate conversion point. So more content ultimately just results in more brand awareness, more engagement with your content, more eyes on your brand, which is truly the goal in order to get more people to buy as a secondary result of that piece of content.

[00:09:57] Craig Macmillan: this sounds like getting to folks who are outside just your followers. And, and trying to find new folks to come into your herd, into your house.

[00:10:09] Emma Tesser: How do we do that? Is that the question?

[00:10:11] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, I was just trying to clarify. So what it sounds like, cause like, I've always been like, Oh, how many followers do they have? And then I'm like, well, how do you get new followers? It sounds to me like maybe it's not just about followers. It's about just exposure in general.

[00:10:22] Emma Tesser: It's definitely not about followers. To be honest, that's the metric that I care the least about. We don't work with brands who just want to grow their followers because it's, it truly does not have an impact on your bottom line. What has an impact on your bottom line are the conversations that you're having, the engagement with your content, you know, engagement also looks like your DMS too.

Like if you're not looking at your DMS as an opportunity to sell, you're missing a huge opportunity. Your content can only do so much for you. A couple of years ago, your content could do the heavy lifting, but now a huge part of marketing your brand is really your community engagement. And that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses that like, we kind of come in and we change the game for them because A lot of what we do is actually getting into the account us as humans, getting into the account nurturing the people who already know about them to bring them closer to the sale.

But really a huge part of our work is outbound engagement and bringing in new eyes to the business. And we do that through starting new conversations, leaving comments on people's content, getting in the groups that your ideal client is in and engaging with that content so that they see that comment.

And then go back to your profile. So there's a lot of different angles you can take, but at the end of the day you're trying to increase awareness of your brand, which oftentimes look like your, your reach of your content and your profile. Because ultimately that number has to be bigger for the amount of people who go to your profile to increase and then follow you and then engage with your content and ultimately buy from you.

So we're looking at like this funnel down where you have to start with a big pool of people because. We know that only a very small percentage of those people are ultimately going to buy. And that's okay, but we're only going to make as much of that percentage as we increase the, the top line the top line number.

[00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: In terms of attracting folks there's a concept that you've mentioned in your on your website and your podcast and your blog, which I think is really interesting, and that's the idea of authority and how important it is to be viewed as an authority in the digital space.

How do you define that? Like, what does authority look like? What does it do for you and how do I build it?

[00:12:29] Emma Tesser: Authority really means that you're standing out in your industry. . There's not very many original ideas anymore. There's not very many original things that we can all be doing. , if you look at 95 Media, for example, there's a million and one people in social media marketing these days.

But what makes us different is the way that we approach our content, the way that we approach our clients businesses, the way that we execute our work, and ultimately what that results in is building authority. Building authority can happen in so many different ways, a great way of looking at it is just leaning into the, how you do things and what makes that different.

There's a lot of noise on social and it's easy to feel like You're in a space that's too saturated and it's not worth creating the content because you're just going to get lost in the noise. The thing is, if you have authority and if you have that unique factor to who you are and who your brand is, you do stand out.

And that is ultimately going to be the reason why someone chooses to buy from you rather than the person down the street who does the exact same thing. So rather than hide and Hush down the things that set you apart. I would really lean into them because that is really what's going to A make you stand out, B, give you authority and C it drive more sales for you.

[00:13:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I identify the things that are going to make me stand out? when talking about like the wine business, or the vineyard side, everybody makes wine. Everybody farms. What's the process that I can go through? Like with one of your clients, how do you help them identify what makes them stand out or what makes them interesting?

[00:14:04] Emma Tesser: . So we actually work with a client in the wine space right now. She is a female founder in California where there's not a lot of female winemakers. It's a really unique space and that's a huge part of their mission as well. . Obviously, if you're a mission driven brand leaning hard into that, because the people who care about that mission are going to be your target demographic for buying your product.

And that's a really big part of her marketing is, , we're here for female founders. We're here for being inclusive. We're here for, you know, really raising awareness around an audience that. isn't always spoken to on social in that space. If you aren't a mission driven brand, nothing wrong with it, but I would look at your company, your team.

If you have like a tasting room associated with your, company, or if you do anything different or slightly unique in any part of your process,

sometimes we get caught up. In the details as founders, as business owners, and we start to think that like everything we do is really boring, you know, like, nothing about my day is unique, nothing about the way that we do things is unique, but truly take that step back, maybe ask your team or ask like a really loyal And buyer for you.

Ask someone in your life or like a business coach or someone like, what do you think makes us stand out? What do you think makes us different? Because I would bet to say that someone else is going to be able to easily identify those things for you. Given 10 minutes, because they're on the outside looking in, it's really hard to see it when you're in it, but that is also one of the great benefits of Working with an outside marketing team because that's their job.

You know, we come in and we identify those factors for our clients in that exact way because it's easy to see it on the outside. And also knowing what matters to your target demographic can help you get closer to that understanding too.

[00:15:49] Craig Macmillan: How do I know who my target demographic is? Hahahahaha

[00:15:57] Emma Tesser: job. Like that's, that's the whole business, right? I mean, it's, it's easy to say like, well, you know, most people drink wine, but I have limited knowledge of the wine industry and I don't know that the majority of wine drinkers are women, right? So even if you just started there.

Now you're focusing on 50 percent of the population rather than 100%. And then could you get a little bit more detailed? Could you look at a more specific age range? Could your branding tell you something about the age range that you're targeting? And then you really just kind of go from there. Not to mention, if you have an existing social media presence, you can go into your analytics and it will tell you who's following you.

[00:16:29] Craig Macmillan: And you can use that data to further inform your ideal client avatar.

How do I identify what platforms are gonna be best for me? There's, we've talked about this a little bit, but how do I know whether I should focus on video or podcast or blog posts primarily? How how can I decide whether it should be photo?

[00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I kind of guess at like which type of content, not content itself, but what form it's in, is probably gonna be most effective for me.

[00:16:56] Emma Tesser: the truth is that video is necessary. And that's not the answer anyone wants to hear, but it's not really an option going into 2025, unfortunately, if you want to look at it like that. The thing about video and why I say that is because every platform is favoring video content. So if you back up, like, could you get away with not doing video content?

Sure. But will you be competitive against everyone else in your space? No, you won't. Your content is going to get lost because the video content that your competitors are posting are going to get so much more reach, so much more engagement, connect so much more deeply with the target demographic that you're also after, that your photo content is just going to get lost in the shuffle.

Then that's going to leave you feeling like it's not worth it. And then you're going to stop posting and then it's never going to work for you. So I would say. Commit to the video content no matter what angle you're taking with your content on social media. And then if you look at a podcast, you know, video is an aspect of podcasting as well.

Podcasts give you so many opportunities to reformat and repurpose the content. But I would. Really put your investment, whether that's time or money or content investments into social, your email list things that you have more control over and that are more popular right now versus something like a blog, which is going to be a really long game.

It's going to take time to compound versus you're going to get quicker dopamine hits and successes from social or your podcast. So it's, it's an easier thing to kind of start and stay committed to longterm versus a blog, which just feels like you're talking into a void and not going to see the results from for a long time.

[00:18:34] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. What about length? That's a conversation I've had with a number of people in terms of like, short and tasty is nice, but then also there are folks that are looking for a little bit more in depth. They're looking for a little more complexity in the story that you're trying to tell. What are your feelings about that?

[00:18:50] Emma Tesser: it really goes back to your target demographic. There's not really an overarching answer, I would say, because different. Age ranges, different demographics, different, like, groups are looking for different types of content. What I would recommend doing is testing a variety. So take, like, 90 days to test some short form, meaning like, 10 second videos or shorter, and then test some 30 second videos, test some 90 second videos.

On TikTok, you can post up to 10 minute videos, like try everything and see what's hitting with your audience because your audience is going to tell you what's successful versus someone else's audience might like something different. I would probably lean into say that your shorter form content is going to perform better simply because it's going to keep the attention of your audience longer.

And what's really important. is actually your watch rate. So how much of the video did your audience watch? You're simply going to get a higher watch rate on a 10 second video than you are in a 90 second video. And so therefore that success metric is going to look like your shorter form content is more successful.

But if you get, you know, more comments on a 90 second video, then that's something to consider as well. But I would just really try it all because your audience is going to give you that data on what they really like and what they want more of.

[00:20:07] Craig Macmillan: This just made me think of something because it's a constant battle for me personally. Quality. Quality of production , you see things on Instagram, for instance, I'm on Instagram. I'm not on TikTok. So I see Instagram and some things are just really slick. I mean, they look like Hollywood production and other things are just stuff people shot on their phone and you know, maybe it's not quite level and the light's not perfect and et cetera.

Maybe the music's not so great. How important do you think the production value is to that success rate? I love having people finally move down the funnel.

[00:20:42] Emma Tesser: I would say I think it has a small impact, but it does not have the biggest impact. And I say that because on Instagram, really on any social platform, we're all craving this authenticity from the creator on the other side of the screen. We actually offer a service called quarterly content shoots where we go to our clients and we shoot three months of video content in three hours with them.

So it is done, it's batched, it's ready to go. And we shoot all of that content on our iPhone because we don't want it to feel like there's a team between the brand and the person on the other side of the screen.

Is there a time and place for professionally shot video? I do. I believe so. You know, we work with a lot of like interior designers and architects where you want to have that professional video shot of like your finished product, home, space, whatever that is.

But does that need to be the only type of video you post to social? Absolutely not. Because that is not going to be the content that creates resonance with your audience. That doesn't create connection with your audience. There's just a lot of opportunity to be a little bit more. Real and at the same time care about how the video looks right.

Like if you were to see this video right now, I have lights on me, but we're shooting it on my computer. This is not like a high def camera by any means. And I shoot all of my content with good lighting, but all of my content is shot on my iPhone. So there's different ways to improve the quality without spending thousands and thousands of dollars on like a high def camera or, you know, hiring a videographer. None of that's needed. 

[00:22:09] Craig Macmillan: That's good news. How much time investment are we talking about? So you're saying like three posts a week. But we're talking about short form, very short form. There may be a little bit in camera editing or in phone editing possibly, but not a lot. You don't have a lot of a lot of tools there.

If I'm trying to do this myself, there's going to be a steep learning curve on how to do it. And then to create that content is going to take some time. And obviously this is where your company comes in, but like what kind of time investment could somebody expect if they're like, Oh, okay, cool. I'm going to take him as advice and I'm going to do this

[00:22:40] Emma Tesser: Well, if you're looking at just the content, you have to consider all of the aspects, right? So you have to consider , strategizing your content, planning it recording it or creating the graphic, writing the caption, doing your hashtags, scheduling it out getting it posted. There's a lot of different aspects when it comes to just creating content, quote unquote.

So I would say roughly you're probably looking anywhere between five to seven hours just on the content side of things. There's a lot of variables in there. You know, are you writing a short caption or you're writing a long caption? How long is the video? How many graphics are you making? But I would say for a beginner, probably five to seven hours on the content side of things.

Um, Yeah, per week. And then there's the whole other aspect of, well, now you need to engage with your community after you post it. So, I always recommend an hour of engagement on every posting day. So you'd be looking at an extra three hours a week. So, you're really looking at eight to ten hours a week on your content on the very minimal side of things.

And You know, listen, a lot of founders don't have that time, and that's why social media marketing does fall to the wayside, and it becomes the last thing on the to do list, which is, as you said, where we come in, and that is why companies like ours exist, because it, it is such an essential part of business today.

And it's very time consuming. So it's kind of one of those things that you can't live without, but also it's very hard to find time for it to begin with.

[00:24:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which actually brings us around to your story. Your, biography page about us is kind of interesting. How did you get into this?

[00:24:15] Emma Tesser: I found social media marketing when I was actually in college for interior design, I was going for my degree in design and I was like fully, fully thought that that was my career path. Had no doubts about it. And then social media marketing kind of fell into my lap when I was working for somebody else.

And that was back in 2015 when, you know, marketing on social was. laughable. No one thought it was serious. No one saw the potential, but I really saw opportunity when I discovered it. I was like, hold up, why are we not all doing this? Like, why do brands not see what is about to happen here? And it just really like lit a fire in me.

Cause I was like, this is about to explode and I want to be a part of that ride. I really like side hustled, like so many entrepreneurs, I side hustled for five years while I was in the design industry. And then when COVID hit. Brands finally started to wake up and be like, Oh my gosh, like social is the thing that we need.

It's the only way we're going to reach our consumer. 95 media really kind of scaled during 2020 and it's just been on an upward journey since then, but it's really because of the impact that social is able to make on our, on our clients, brands, and that is just. What keeps me coming back in the craziness of everything social and how it changes every single day as we all feel.

It's really the impact of social media that is so exciting and really rewarding to be a part of.

[00:25:35] Craig Macmillan: You were simply asked to take on this task and then you learned it from scratch.

[00:25:40] Emma Tesser: I did.

[00:25:43] Craig Macmillan: Well, that's inspirational. That's inspirational that

[00:25:45] Emma Tesser: Well, to be fair, back in, in 2015, there were a lot less features and there was a lot less like messiness on social. And there, but at the same time, there was. So little educational content on social media marketing. So I actually like podcasting was a huge part of my own education, learning social media marketing.

I was listening to like the OG marketers, like Jenna Kutcher and Amy Porterfield back in 2015 in their starting days. And they're still creating content today, but it was really hard to learn. And today there's so much education online about social media marketing, which is beautiful. It's just a little overwhelming because there is so much opportunity out there at the exact same time.

 We all have to learn marketing to some degree. It's just depends on how far you want to go down that journey before you're like, okay, it's time to hire somebody else to do this for me.

[00:26:30] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to something because I just thought about it. You mentioned data. I'm a, I'm a data person. I love data. Yeah. All kinds. First of all, how do I get it, and then what do I do with it?

[00:26:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah, that's a, it's a great question. If we just look at Instagram in particular, cause obviously it's the one that we all know the best Instagram gives you an insane amount of data on everything that you do down to like every single post, every single story that you put out there, it will give you. tons of information on your audience's reaction to that content, including how was it found? What type of people were engaging with it? What were the actions that they took with it? You know, so much. The part of your question that's so good is what do I do with that information? , what do I do from here?

I see it. Like, I know it's there, but like, what do we do?

What I would recommend doing is actually looking at that data on a weekly basis and then monthly doing a little bit of a zoom out as well, because week to week, your content's really going to fluctuate. You're going to see a lot of like big ups and really low lows and you're going to panic and you're like, well, nothing's working.

But really when you zoom out on a monthly basis, you get to see, okay, here are trends. The trend is showing me that video content is far surpassing any photo that I put out there. I got to do more of that or you know, I, I created some graphics this month, but graphics are actually really not doing well.

So I'm just going to lean more into just single photos or video content and omit the care, the graphic content for the next month and see how that does. So Cool. Really utilizing that data to say, let's do more of this. Let's stop doing that and then test all over again. It's a lot of A B testing with your data.

[00:28:08] Craig Macmillan: That's fascinating. That's interesting., what's one takeaway that you would have, you'd tell growers, or winemakers, or winery owners, founders, on this topic?

[00:28:17] Emma Tesser: Well, what I would say specifically to this audience is that your demographic, whether or not you're super clear on it or not, but your demographic is looking for your product on social, like without a doubt, your target demographic is on social. They're buying products on social. And your job is simply to meet them where they're at.

That's it. So if you can just get consistent content up there, I can nearly guarantee, this is not legal advice, but I can nearly guarantee that you will see more conversions from your content. The problem and the thing that really holds a lot of brands You know, in this space back is just a lack of consistency and an understanding of who you're talking to.

But in fact, your audience, like the female audience, you know, from 21 to like 60 who's drinking wine, like it's a big demographic. They're on social and they're the primary buyers for their household. And not only that, but they're the ones consuming the product. So that is like a win win win across the board for this industry.

It really just means if you can get your messaging down and you can create content that really resonates with that audience, you have a massive opportunity to tap into sales that you've never been looking at before.

[00:29:27] Craig Macmillan: And I can get a sense of that resonance by looking at my data and seeing who's watching what and when.

[00:29:32] Emma Tesser: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:29:35] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Emma, where can people find out more about you?

[00:29:38] Emma Tesser: Yeah. So our website is 95media. co. We're on every social platform, but Instagram's my favorite. It's 90. 5. media all spelled out N I N E T Y. F I V E. media. And we post nearly every single day, so you can find us whenever you're at on, on the platforms. And we also have a podcast, it's called Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling, where we share all things marketing.

So if you want to dive a little bit deeper, that's a great show to tune into as well.

[00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, I guess today's been Emma Tesler. She's founder and CEO of 95 Media. Fascinating conversation. Thanks for being on the podcast. It's been really fun.

[00:30:12] Emma Tesser: Thanks so much for having me. 

[00:30:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products. Serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products, gives back investing in both the community and industry.

Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Emma at 95 Media and their popular podcast. Stop scrolling. Start Scaling Plus sustainable Wine Growing podcast episodes, 138 five tips for your wine brand. Social media 140 the social media impact wine sales. 144 are you using the right message on social media and 198 three ways to talk about sustainability on social media.

If you like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcast@vineyardteam.org/podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.

 

 

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

NDVI imagery is analyzed by software which tells the grower where to go in the vineyard to take samples that will best represent the ripeness of the crop. This method could save tremendous amounts of time and generates much smaller samples for processing.

References:

• Video of Dr. Vanden Heuvel explaining the project
• Justine Vanden Heuvel’s web page

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Beyond doing good by the environment and your community, your sustainably certified wine grapes differentiate your brand in today’s oversaturated wine market.

But do you know how much of a value-driver your certification really is?

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this Marketing Tip, get insight into the significance of sustainably grown grapes in the larger market from Gregg Hibbits, who has nearly 30 years of experience selling wine grapes.

Over this course of his career, he has experienced a shift in what his grape-buying clients are looking for. Keep reading for highlights from his interview on Episode #83 of the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast.

Buyers with Different Interests

Each client, Hibbits says, has different interests.

• Many winemakers have deep and long-standing interests in sustainability because they believe in its mission: creating high-quality products through protecting, conserving, and regenerating resources so people of today and the future can prosper. They seek out certified sustainable grapes that align with their values.
• Other buyers believe that sustainability is the direction the industry is going. They feel a push from the market and the trade to produce wine from sustainably farmed grapes, so it is part of their purchasing criteria when they source fruit.
• Furthermore, sustainability is a value-driver for investors. Businesses want to report back to their investors that the product they are supporting is both of high-quality and reaches exceptional levels in environmental and social health.

But he notes a change in his clients over his career.

Higher Demands, Higher Premiums

Hibbits tells Sustainable Winegrowing, “There’s absolutely no question that people are more demanding on every front now.”

Buyers are demanding sustainability. Now, the topic comes up early in conversations with buyers – something, Hibbits says, was not the case 15 years ago.

But he has been able to fulfill those demands, and has been rewarded in the form of premiums.

“Sometimes it’s as simple as being able to sell your grapes when nobody else can – that’s a premium. And then sometimes when the market is in a different place, the premium is a true premium: I can get $200 - $300 a ton more for my sustainably certified or organic grapes.”

And this is something we hear from SIP Certified growers time and time again:

John Niven, Cadre Wines

“Buyers are looking for wines that have responsible farming practices, are aware of environmental issues, and, of course, are of high quality.

The SIP Certified program has added value to our wines allowing us to demonstrate our ability to fulfill all of the desired criteria that buyers look for.”

Austin Hope, Hope Family Wines

“More and more, we’re being asked about our sustainability efforts in the vineyard and winery.

Being SIP Certified is an easy way for us to quantify our practices and tell the consumer and trade about how we run our operation in a way that’s better for the land, the wine and the community”.

Adam LaZarre, Broadside Wine

“For us, having our wines SIP Certified is easily the best way to let our entire audience know we are sincere about doing the right thing for the health of our vineyards, customers, and employees...

I know for a fact that this is a HUGE selling point for our wines.”

If your Grapes are SIP Certified…

… it’s easier now than ever to put the SIP Certified logo on your wine bottles.

Thanks to the latest SIP Certified database feature, you can create a wine application in just a few minutes.

Say goodbye to the days of documents and information getting lost in months-old email threads, and instead, upload everything straight to your application.

Learn how to Apply for SIP Certified Wine today!

 

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!    

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

UV lamps have been used in the medical field, food processing, and sterilization for 75 years but application on plant disease management only began in the 1990s. UV light is a natural component of sunlight. The most harmful wavelengths like UVC are screened out by our ozone layer. DNA damaging UVB does reach the surface, however, most organisms can utilize blue light to repair the damage.  

David Gadoury, Plant Pathologist at Cornell University, is part of a large team of international researchers testing this technology on a variety of crops. Because there can be significant differences in environments, pest pressure, and times of year crops are impacted, it is important to trial this methodology globally. Powdery mildew microorganisms live in a sunlight-filled world so they use the sun’s natural blue light to repair UV damage.

More recently, scientists found that UV light for pest management is much more effective when used at night when microorganisms cannot employ the repair process. So far, trials have found that UV light is most effective against powdery mildews. In the best treatment scenarios, control is on par with the best available fungicides. And now, UV light treatments are being paired with autonomous robots, providing potentially even greater efficiencies to growers.

References:

• 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management
• 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases
• CleanLight
• David Gadoury | mailto:dmg4@cornell.edu
• Light and Plant Health
• Robots armed with UV light fight grape mildew
• SAGA Robotics
• SIP Certified
• Sustainable Ag Expo

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Looking for a tool to help you make irrigation and Nitrogen application decisions? How about one that will not cost you anything? Michael Cahn, Farm Advisor, Irrigation and Water Resources at the University of California Cooperative Extension in Monterey County explains a valuable software for farmers – CropManage. This free software from the University of California combines a wide variety of data inputs to help growers make accurate and timely irrigation and fertilization decisions based on crop-specific models. The tool aggregates data from the University of California at Davis Soil Web, weather stations, evapotranspiration, and satellite imagery. Plus, it can be integrated with a farmer’s existing software.

CropManage has been ground-truthed in more than 30 field trials. While the product started in lettuce, it has expanded into vineyards. Your vineyard can be a beta tester to help improve this software for the wine industry.

Resources:

• 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis
• 116: Using Nudge Theory to Improve Irrigation Practices
• 139: Vineyard Irrigation Scheduling
• Adapting wine grape production to climate change through canopy architecture manipulation and irrigation in warm climates
• CropManage
• “CropManage CropManage Application for Vineyard Irrigation Decision Support.” 73rd American Society of Enology and Viticulture National Conference, San Diego CA
• Michael Cahn’s email
• Monterey County UC Cooperative Extension

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship – Make a Gift
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing Education On-Demand (Western SARE) – Sign Up!
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Michael Cahn. He is Farm Adviser in irrigation and water resources with UC Cooperative Extension Monterey County. But he also works in other counties as well, as I'm sure we'll talk about. And today we're going to talk about a system a decision assistance system for a whole variety of crops called CropManage, which is free and available online. And I've been following for quite a few years. In fact, he was a speaker at one of our Sustainable Ag Expos a few years back, and at the time, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I can't wait to see how it develops. Welcome.

 

Michael Cahn  0:29 

Well, thank you for inviting me.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:31 

So first of all, what exactly is CropManage? Well, it

 

Michael Cahn  0:35 

is an online decision support tool that's sort of in a nutshell is how we describe it. It's essentially software that takes information from different sources, puts it through some crop models, and provide some recommendations on how long to irrigate your crops. It also for a number of crops, provides decision support on nitrogen management.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:03 

How did this all come about? This was a really interesting project, there's a lot that goes into it, what was the genesis, the idea behind this?

 

Michael Cahn  1:09 

The start of CropManage was in lettuce a number of years ago, we're trying to help growers be more efficient in nitrogen management. Nitrogen, as most of you know, in its mineral form, which would be mostly nitrate, is very mobile in the soil. So it seems like if we're going to manage nitrogen accurately, then we also have to manage water. So they go to hand in hand in hand. Of course, I work in irrigation water management. So I also had the interest in just using water efficiently on the Central Coast, because of our limited water supplies. You know, we could use nutrients more efficiently and water more efficiently if we had some sort of decision support tool. When I started working with the vegetable growers. I often asked them, you know, how are you making decisions on irrigation? How long to irrigate when to irrigate? And you get a variety of answers. But essentially, it came down to the experience of branch managers in irrigation farming, sort of passing that information down from one irrigator to another irrigator. One farm manager do another farm manager. And by the way, this happens at vineyards too, you know, so the question was, well, okay, are they you're getting efficiently. And so, as I started out as a farm advisor, my first question was, how do we measure how much water we apply, you have to remember back when I started, wasn't so easy. The flow meters we had available for these propeller meters, they're often inaccurate. And then to record derogations, there was no output, you couldn't hook them up to a little computer or data logger. So that came later. But once they did start monitoring water use growers, who found that if you base it on crop ET, they're putting on 200, 300% of crop at the estimate. And so, so the question was, who's right, you know, is the crop ET right or are they right? So then we start doing trials, saying, well, let's just follow this crop ET and see if that would work. It worked, you know, we never reduced yields in lettuce. So we kept the soil still with adequate moisture. At that time, it was like a spreadsheet model that we used. At the same time, we were working on nitrogen management using the soil nitrate quick test to evaluate mineral island in the soil.

 

How are you measuring Crop ET back then? We're estimating it, I should say.

 

Yeah, it's still the same way as we do it and CropManage, we developed crop coefficients. And that was a big question of growers, what is my crop coefficient, and there seemed to be a misunderstanding of that, because they thought it was one number like point seven, one, and then you use that with the referencing ET value that comes from usually a CIMIS station that California irrigation management information system. Well, it's not one number. It's based on really the fractional cover over the ground. So how much of the ground is shade by the use in in lettuce? This changes tremendously, you know, over a season, it goes from essentially no cover to full cover to about 90%. And so then the question was, okay, no cover here, but I need to irrigate Right. So we do have water loss from the soil by evaporation. So we have to model that too. So that all goes into the crop coefficient calculation. And we have that in our spreadsheet model. We based it on published work that was done in the Silicon Valley by my predecessor, and other people, that model worked fine. So it wasn't a model, I necessarily came up with the innovation was just trying it out. And validating it. That's what we did, then, you know, we got grower interest. They said, Yeah, we'd like to use this type of model for water management. We also were interested in nitrogen management using the soil nitrate quick test. And so another aspect to what we did was look at, well, how much nitrogen does a lettuce crop need as you go through the season, and we did this by brute force by harvesting lettuce at different stages, and analyzing how much nitrogen was in the above ground biomass. And that gave us the demand side of the equation. So so now we want to put it all together, and the grower interest was there. So we realized, you know, if a grower was going to use this spreadsheet, it would be a little cumbersome, because think about how many separate plantings there are on our ranch, lots of them. That's a lot of spreadsheets to keep track of. So we wanted it to be in a sense a database database that we available to a grower online. So that was the idea that we have a web based decision support tool, so it holds all the data. So once you enter it, you don't have to re enter it. There is some upfront cost and time when setting up your farm or ranch on CropManage. But once it's set up, only if you make modifications do you have to enter anything.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:01 

Now there's a lot of inputs that go into this, I was looking at the landing page for the CropManage Site, can you tell us a little bit about all of the different parts and pieces of data and information that go into into the system?

 

Michael Cahn  7:08 

Essentially, you're giving crop manage some information about your ranch. So all the different fields that you have, we need to be able to refer to them. So you set that out, and you associate a soil type with that, because we do have models of water holding capacity in the soil. It's based on the soil texture. Now because it is web based, we can use other tools to help you set this up. So fact crop manage links to UC Davis soil web. So you click on a Google map, find your field, you click on it and the soil type comes up, you can always modify the values there. But we bring those in, you don't have to know to use CropManage, you have to associate CropManage with some weather data. So there's the option to use the near CIMIS weather station, you can use multiple CIMIS weather stations, there's a spatial CIMIS option, which is a hybrid of satellite and weather stations. So it brings in the referencing ET data will also bring in rainfall data from the CIMIS station. Because we are working with fertilizers, you can make a customized list of the typical fertilizers that would be used at that branch. And so there is a list there. You can choose from, you can enter your own specific fertilizers that you use. Also, you'll see a place where you set up your commodity lists. No sense in having information pop up about lettuce if you don't grow lettuce.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:52 

Exactly. And vineyards are part of the system now. Is that right?

 

Michael Cahn  8:57 

That's right. They're in the experimental phase. And if you want to activate it, you'll see in your profile place where you check experimental commodities. And that's because we're still developing the nitrogen model for vineyards. So it's good to use for irrigation management, not put to use, for nitrogen management. We're working with other UC Davis specialists on the nitrogen.

 

Craig Macmillan  9:22 

You're gonna have a hard time with that. Trying to get a handle on the demand side of nitrogen for vineyard stuff. I've worked on that as a as a writer. And yeah, that's that that's gonna take some work, but I'm glad that it's part of the idea. I think it's super important. I think it's something that people have overlooked. I think we've been flying blind as far as nitrogen and vineyards goes, we've gotten better in the irrigation side.

 

Michael Cahn  9:45 

Right, right. And that's what I'm learning is the vineyard people have no agreement on a lot of these things. One of the things one of the purposes of crop damages. Well, first pivotal is public, right? It's developed by the University, it takes our science and tries to make it more available to practitioners by having the decision support models are based on our research. And as we do research, we can update these models, but also, as practitioners use crop damage, they can tell us we oh, this doesn't work, right, you know, you need to investigate X or Y. And so for developing new hypotheses or directions in our research, it's useful that way, too. So it's a two way street, I should say.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:44 

How is this going with adoption? Why is it how's it going with communication from growers back to you? Are people picking this up? Are they giving you back the kind of feedback that you need on the growers side, how can we help you?

 

Michael Cahn  10:55 

So for the vegetables, it's getting adopted by growers that are ready to really implement better water and nutrient management, not saying all growers adopting CropManage, but we do have growers who, and some growers, they're saying, Yeah, this is the direction we want to go. And they're in the phase of figuring out how to get it adopted on their growing operation. Because it's one thing where someone at the top or management wants to adopt it to another thing to get your irrigators to adopt it. So that's the hardest part. And then the same with the strawberries. In some ways we've been even more successful were, they were the strawberries. And then in vineyards, while we're, you know, in the beginning stages here. And so right now, what we've been doing is we have beta testers, essentially, vineyard growers that are saying, Yeah, I'm interested, what we do is we put a flow meter on a block in their vineyard. And one of the nice things about crop manages, it can take sensor data into it, just like a lot of those tools out there that are sold to, to vineyard people for soil moisture monitoring, we can also bring soil moisture, data flow meter data in you can observe it and crop manage. So we've outfitted a few vineyards in the Salinas Valley with that, and some in the Central Valley to see what CropManage estimates and terms of water use and what growers are putting on. 

 

Craig Macmillan  12:39 

Yeah, and if they tell me a little bit more about the one thing that I love about CropMnage, it's science based. And it's also ground truth. So as you've gone along, you've you've done the background work you've come up with, Okay, this looks like something that would work in terms of figuring out Kc and things like that. But then you actually have spent the time and the energy and whatnot to actually ground truth of the decision assistance model against reality, right?

 

Michael Cahn  13:05 

Yeah, we haven't done vineyards in the way I would love to do it, which is not just compared to what a grower standard practices, but go beyond that, where we have some pre arranged treatments in compared to those treatments. So for example, vegetables, we've done replicated field trials, seeing broccoli, where we apply 50 7500 and 125 and 150% of the recommendation, then evaluate the yield. Like to do this in vineyards, that is trickier. It's a perennial crop, so you'd have to run it for several years, really, to see, you know, really what the outcome is.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:50 

You have other variables along the way things like crop management or dropping crop they're changing cropping styles through pruning and whatnot, year to year during canopy management. I found that to be particularly tricky. If you're thinking about idea of percent cover. If you've got a California sprawl and everything's flopping all over the place then works. You push everything upright. And now you don't have as much shade, but you still have the same amount of leaves. So doing those kinds of estimates is tough. Yeah, definitely. It's on the fly. But I believe he can do it. I believe in you.

 

Michael Cahn  14:23 

Well, we'll see. Maybe beyond my career, but someone needs to do it.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:30 

Do you still need beta testers?

 

Michael Cahn  14:32 

Sure. Yes. Because the more feedback we get, the better and there's different levels of they could do for the most intensive is where we put you know, a flow meter on and some soil moisture sensors. They want that in the field, and then they can follow, you know, how much water they're putting on. And what this means in terms of soil moisture, what CropManaged recommends We also take canopy photos, to adjust the canopy curve for how they're managing the vineyard. We also import automatically satellite estimates of canopy that comes from a NASA product called SIMIS satellite irrigation management system.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:20 

Which is really cool, by the way.

 

Michael Cahn  15:22 

Yeah. And this year seems pretty accurate, you know, very close to our estimates with ground truth, measurements of canopy. And that's going to be compared with opening ET, which is a satellite based estimate of ET, actual ET again, the nice thing about these web based tools is you, the user don't have to go to all those different websites, we can bring that data in automatically in the parts we need for your decision support, we just pull that out, you don't have to search through different places in websites to get what you want.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:00 

Yeah, I like the way the system is, or the way the interface is structured. It's a great dashboard. It's easy to navigate around, it gives you great information easily, which is wonderful. I think I already know the answer to this question. But what would you say is the number one advantage, or the number one benefit to a grower, no matter who they are, of using CropManage?

 

Michael Cahn  16:23 

I guess the number one benefit is they have a better understanding of really the water and the nitrogen management over a whole season, just at their fingertips. For perennial crops, you can see what you did year to year. So the record keeping, I would say, is a big benefit. Even if you don't follow any of the recommendations, just keeping records is extremely useful.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:49 

Measure to manage.

 

Michael Cahn  16:50 

Yeah, it's been very useful for me, in my research, it's like I built this mostly out of self interest in the sense. You can imagine if you were trying to help people doing irrigation, you need to know how much water they're applaying. And so here we have a tool where I can give them feedback right away, how much water they're applying, I used to have to calculate all those ET measurements, or estimates by hand. Well, this software does it. So it's a great extension tool. It's a great way for me to figure out who there's a gap in knowledge, and that I need to do research on. So it's helped in many ways. We have a number of farm advisors that also develop the interests of crop manage in different parts of the state. And so it's sort of the idea is spreading, I guess, you see.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:44 

Yeah, exactly. I hope that it doesn't happen spreads amongst growers. What is the one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, broad topic?

 

Michael Cahn  17:54 

Well, this broad topic of water management of vineyards, there's a lot of different opinions. What I see, at least in the Salinas Valley, is growers, you know, they they stress those vines a lot, a lot more than they realize a lot of their decisions come from watching the vines and how the tendrils are, you know, how they're growing. And they don't want too much canopy, so a pullback on the water. But it could be that at some point, sir overstressing the crop. And so having good sense of how much water stress that crop is experienced would be something I would like to investigate more.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:36 

Especially if you're going into a hot spell. You know, I mean, it's one thing you Oh, hey, these vines, we want to keep the very small, we want to have stress in this. And then suddenly, next thing, you know, it's 10 days of 105. And it would have been nice for that plant to be in a little better shape going into that. But how do you know, right? That's philosophy versus prediction versus technology. But this is a great tool to help you with that.

 

Michael Cahn  18:57 

Right. And so one feature I better talk about in the development for vineyards is you can decide what percentage of potentially ET you want to apply to your crop for each irrigation. And if you enter the amount of water you applied, or the hours you applied, we have another part of crop manage called the saltwater balance. And it will actually calculate how the soil profile will look you know, in terms of depletion of moisture, and we've calibrated that pretty well by using soil moisture sensors. For example, one vineyard we did last year, outfitted with soil moisture sensors and in ran this and it was pretty obvious from the soil moisture sensors, you know, they really depleted the lower part of the profile, you know, by July and it just never went up even with each irrigation they waited up the top foot but you know there was as much moisture down deeper. And so, you know, the soil water balance showed something very similar. We showed this data the grower, and they said, That is not what we wanted to do. We want to keep some of that deep soil moisture. You could use this as a tool to help you understand just how much you are stressing the crop.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:21 

Where can people find out more about you and CropManage in general?

 

Michael Cahn  20:24 

Well, we have on our website, help link, which has tutorials as introduction to CropManage, we do crop manage workshops. Usually during the winter time, where it's hands on, you bring a computer, or cell phone or whatever you want to interface with CropManage. And by the way, you don't need a computer a desktop computer, or laptop computer to use CropManage, it works just fine in tablet. And it's definitely meant to be used with a smartphone out there in the field. Because the interface reconfigures for the different screen sites. It is used in a web browser environment to be recommended using Google Chrome or Safari attending our workshop. And we also say, you know, call it the crop manage hotline, which is my office, and I'll leave us with some contact information.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:24  

Perfect, but we're about out of time. I want to thank you Michael. Like I said, this has been a long, long road to get to this point. And I'm very happy to see the progress that's been made. And I'm happy to see that it's still going. This kind of work needs to be funded. And I know that you relied partly upon donations, and I hope that our listeners will put a couple of bucks in the hat somewhere to keep this going. We appreciate it. But it's a fantastic idea and a fantastic amount of privacy all made. Our guest today is Michael Cahn. He was former adviser for irrigation water resources UC Cooperative Extension Monterey County and other counties. Thanks for being on the podcast.

 

Michael Cahn  22:01 

Thank you for having me.

 

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

While the tradition of wine is still important to how we connect with customers, the way that we communicate has changed. David Avrin, President of The Customer Experience Advantage explains why brands must have an omnichannel approach to their customer communication. Identify which channels are most valuable to your business by defining your core audience. Then find out what they watch, what they read, and where they recreate. Use these insights to harness the technology that your customers use whether its snail mail or TikTok. David reminds us that there is no shame in not being comfortable with technology but there is no excuse to not work with a technology native who does understand the platforms that best reach your audience.

Resources:        

• 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer
• 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies
• 98: Selling Wine in Non-Traditional Channels
• 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine
• David Avrin Website
• David Avrin Books
• David Avrin LinkedIn
• David Avrin YouTube
• Social Media: Facebook | Instagram

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is David Avrin. He is president of the customer experience advantage. Today we're going to talk about a little bit about the business side, and how that applies sustainability in the wine industry. Thanks for being on the podcast.

 

David Arvin  0:14 

Thank you very much for having me.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:16 

Now, we've talked about wineries vineyards, but their businesses. In your mind, what are some of the important things that winery and vineyard owners might think about in terms of making their companies sustainable into the future?

 

David Arvin  0:29 

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the industry certainly has been around for a very long time. And when it goes back to Biblical times, and there's there's certain ways that vineyard owners, those who are in the business suppliers, and others, this is how we do business, this is how it's done. But what's interesting is for the rest of us, who are the wine consumers, our lives have changed. And it's actually for everybody, right? How we connect, and share and grow our own businesses, and our changing expectations for access and immediacy, and flexibility, all of that has changed. So I think part of future proofing your business is striking that balance between the traditions, that, that go into making a great vintage wine, and how we interact and how we engage as consumers in the b2b side with distributors and others as well. So many of those mechanisms have changed. So I think what's really important is for people to be very clear on the technologies that are expected, and the ones that facilitate great communication in great relationships. I saw a study the other day, and the gist of it said that, that companies today are expected to deploy technology that allows their customers to do business with them, not from home, from anywhere, at any time, I don't expect that I can get my hair cut at four o'clock in the morning, but I expect that I can make an appointment to do so or cancel that appointment. So I think it's a very unique industry, because the traditions and what is tried and true and effective are so important to maintain, so important to pass along from generation to generation, but how we connect and communicate and deliver those services, those products, all of that has changed. We need to stay on the front end of that.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:09 

One of the attractions of wine, I think, in my experience with customers, is this traditional aspect this is this is something mystical about it. And how do we maintain that kind of magical quality to a product, when we need to engage with the customer in more electronic ways or more distant ways, and maybe without as much touch?

 

David Arvin  2:31 

I think it's just the business part of it, that it requires that kind of an expeditious, ease of use kind of a methodology are really virtual wine tastings unless you're actually tasting wine in different locations and connecting electronically.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:46 

And that's happened.

 

David Arvin  2:47 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We did it during COVID. We had so many double dates with my wife and some other couples and stuff, and just opportunity just over a glass of wine and some dinner, to just hang out with each other. It's one of things we learned during the pandemic that was possible. But I think when I've talked about the technology, I think it really is purely just how do we do business, my, my mantra, my new book is all about how to be how to become ridiculously easy to do business with. And so I think fortunately for the industry, I think the traditions still hold true. I think in person, wine tastings and wine enjoys and pairings at restaurants, I think a lot of that will pretty much stay the same. I think it's we're always want to stay on the forefront of that. But it's the the communication, the distribution, the marketing. There are so many new amazing mechanisms now to reach our target market, which is shifting, of course, we can talk about that. But it's using the mechanisms that they use. And so we can be traditional, but we certainly don't want to be seen as stodgy or antiquated, or old school. And so I think there's there's a really wonderful balance that in the terminus is fully intentional, because there's so much that balance comes into this industry. But I think in terms of our communication and our marketing and our in person enjoyment. I think that part's all very important.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:07 

He mentioned the generational change. And that's an issue for the wine business, the generation that really brought us to where we are today, their children, and then possibly their grandchildren are coming of age, they're coming of age. And the question is whether that love of the wine product has been passed on generationally or not. One thing that I learned from looking at some of your other talks and stuff was, it's about and you mentioned it was the ease of connection and the ease of doing business and convenience.

 

David Arvin  4:40 

I think on the business side is that I think there's a great opportunity for the industry to become not just present and relevant but preferable to a new generation as well. It's not like there isn't a long history with wine. As I said, going back to Biblical times. They have survived so well over the years. But what's different is each generation How we communicate, and how we connect and reach out, all of that has changed. I think wine is uniquely positioned to capitalize on that new as long as these generations come to fruition that Gen X, the Gen Y, the Gen Z, and all of them as well, because I think there's a natural progression of maturity in the individual. It's like there's a space, I think, between the parties. And I remember when party was a noun, now it is a verb. And then of course, the the more traditional and stodgy. I think wine is uniquely placed in there. And so while the young people are, they're going to play drinking games at 18, to 23, 24, you know, playing quarters with beer, the opportunity when when it's time to grow up, we grab a glass of wine, and we connect together. So you might have party and the stodgy I think the middle is social. And I think wine has a phenomenal opportunity right now to be positioned as the social drinker, we're not drinking to get drunk. We're not drinking to be to be sophisticated in in our smoking jackets with a high ball and of whiskey. But I think wine lends itself phenomenally to visuals, as well. And so I think if you're going to compare it to industries that have survived and thrived in that transition, I think coffee is probably the best. I mean, we grew up our parents, you go down, look for 15 cents, get a cup of joe. Well, now everybody's enjoying coffee, it's become more profitable, it's become more prevalent, because they've looked at a couple of things. One is the social aspect. And Starbucks had a big role to play in how we look at that experiential thing. But it's also a grab and go kind of an item, being able to recognize how easy do we do that and take that to the office. And that industry has done it very well. No, wine, of course, is something different. We don't necessarily take to the office, but the visuals of people who have come of age socializing, and not just drunk at a frat party, I think there's wonderful opportunities in terms of our marketing to say, when you're when you finally grown up, this is how we connect, this is how we socialize. And the other part of it, I think, is the packaging. And this part has been really fun for us because we are of the mind of so many, that when we get invited to a gathering, we always come with a bottle of wine. What's interesting is talking to others that one of the primary drivers. And this really takes us back to like 50 60, 70s was the emergence of clever and attractive packaging. It's less important today in other industries. But I think it's more important in the wine industry. The clever names, the clever packaging, so many people I've talked to say, I just thought this bottle looks so cool. And that's the one that they bring, right. That's not the bottle we tend to open up we like to display because there's so much creativity in that the elegant yesteryear of wine was a very elegant, labelled today. They're whimsical, they're fanciful, they're, they're tongue in cheek, and everything from the 99 crimes that you can scan and get a little story about them to Menage a Trios, which, which, you know, gives people a little bit of a smile when you realize the the inference, I think is such an exciting industry right now. I think the biggest population bubble in history is coming of age, and the perfect target. And then we look at the social how they communicate as well. Whether it's Instagram, or tick tock, for others, as well short form social short form video, it lends itself so well, two people connecting and gathering and enjoying life and sharing a bottle of wine.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:23 

I'm a dinosaur, I just turned 55. And I work sometimes in the tasting room, the winery where I work now Niner Wine Estates, as time went on, it became very clear that I was not able to communicate with my coworkers, because they were talking about Instagram, they were using Twitter, they were Venmoing everything like I couldn't even be involved in social gatherings without getting Venmo on my phone. It's a here's 20 bucks and like, I don't want that. No, I wanted my Venmo account. Yeah, so one of them actually offered to become my social media consultant. And that is still continued to this day. So how can we make it easy for the consumer to interact with winery, if the consumer is not either tech savvy or in my case doesn't want to be tech savvy.

 

David Arvin  9:11 

The term that you're going to hear so often which is which is omni channel. And omni channel means no matter how they want to communicate with you give them that opportunity. I mean, you talk about Venmo, for example, and I speak to audiences around the world, I write books on all of this. And one of the things I talk about in the new book that I'm writing right now, which is called ridiculously easy to do business with one of the chapters is be ridiculously easy to pay, you know, somebody wants to pay you through Venmo Okay, and this is scary for people with very traditional businesses. And I'm like, oh my god, somebody's trying to give you money, say yes. As you had recognized sometimes it takes a younger person who is a technology native who is immersed in all of this to help you translate and help you implement. There is no shame in not being comfortable with some of the new social media platforms or mechanisms. There is no excuse to not work with somebody who is and just because it might be a little bit scary. And for I mean, if you're old, I'm ancient, my kids run circles around me are all of our kids where we've got a Brady Bunch, they're all sort of 20 to 29. And I've got two of them who do digital marketing and digital media for a living. I wrote books if you can, if you're watching the video behind me, I wrote books, and I couldn't keep up today. But what we do is we surround ourselves, we outsource we, we hand off to people who are comfortable with those mechanisms. So when I talked before up omni channel, we're all going to have people, we're going to have customers from 21 to 85 or above, they want to communicate with you differently, they want to access the product differently, some might be able to do sort of online video introductions, a tour of the winery, some things that look very experiential, and some are very, very comfortable using the app and doing things online ordering. And there's another segment that needs to talk to a person for for those in business, those who are listening to this podcast, you don't have to be all things to all people. But you have to be very clear of who your audience is, and who your future audience is. And make sure that you have the processes in place for them to reach you by phone, by text message. However, that might be an even if it's just the b2b aspect of your business and dealing with vendors and others as well. No matter how they want to communicate, try and make that available. We look at the lifetime value of our customers, both on the consumer side and also on the distribution side. being ridiculously easy to do business with is a competitive advantage today. And all of this is with a recognition that you have to be good at what you do, right? This isn't in lieu of a quality product, don't take your eye off the ball. But what's different today, what's different post pandemic is that our mechanisms for how do we communicate or pay or order or reorder have got to be simple and streamlined. And then when we look at the audience is how do they where are they getting their information if you want to really target those, those 21 to 30 year olds posting clever, engaging intent and enticing videos on Tik Tok or Instagram, it's not fluff, it's business. If that's where they get their information, you need to be there. You need to be there effective.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:11 

And that raises another question. I think it's tough for a lot of businesses just in general, how do you keep up on all this stuff? As there's new applications? There's new channels, there's new preferences, that's another one Pay Pal was the thing. So yeah, Pay Pal? I'm cool PayPal Venmo I'd never heard of it until somebody demanded that as a payment. If I'm the general manager of a business or if I'm an executive, how do I stay on top of this?

 

David Arvin  12:34 

Um, first of all, is the recognition you don't have to do everything. Because it is overwhelming. It's 100%. You don't have to be on every social media platform. You don't have to take every form of payment. You don't have to take Bitcoin, I would advise against it. But it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be a student of business be a lifelong learner of business. And there's no shortage of content available online. That tells you here the the the hottest trends, how do millennials or Gen Z prefer to communicate what is their greatest influence into what they buy? When and why just read I mean, there's videos on on online every day, part of my responsibility to my clients and my audiences that I serve is I need to be very, very current. There was somebody who had booked me to to keynote a conference and that's my my primary business as a keynote speaker. And it was six months away. And they asked if I would send they were finalizing things if I would send my slide deck. And I said, I'm happy to send my slide deck but understand it's not what I'm going to present to you in six months, because things will change between now and that whether you have a second generation who's moving up within your business, make sure that you have people of all ages in the room as you discuss strategy. I think to answer your question, just be a student of this there is no shortage go on YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world only second to Google, and it's owned by Google. But YouTube is a wonderful way to have just looking at stories and news clips and others about what are the latest trends. How are they predominantly buying? Where does Gen Z get most of their information? Right? I saw some of the day was fascinating that Disney was suffering in a significant way just because the youngest of our people are getting most of their videos and content online now on YouTube and others and it's in lieu of that it's not like they did anything wrong. Bed Bath and Beyond goes bankrupt not because they did a bad job. It's that we had changed and how we buy and how we connect we just get it delivered to our house through Amazon or something else. So I for me, I think it's it's a it's an exciting thing. It's a positive thing to be a constant learner, stay up to date and relieve yourself of the pressure to do everything. Just look who is my core audience? What do they watch? What do they read? Where do they recreate and congregate and dine and connect and are we there? And are we there in a way that is is not just present and not overly salesy. Persuasive and social and big the big rule in social media is don't sell share.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:04 

I was reading something this morning, which reminded me of a topic that we had talked about internally in our winery. And that is the the idea of story. You just mentioned that storytelling. We also know that attention spans are short. And we know that a lot of us technology is set up for no more than a minute, two minutes, three minutes, how do I tell a really compelling story in a short amount of time? there's

 

David Arvin  15:28 

Well,  two ways to do it. One is a story, a traditional story. And that might be through an article, it might be through a longer form video, it tells us a situation or something about a Thanksgiving dinner, and something that emotional happens. And you see that on the table. Most of story today, in terms of short form, video format, is literally very short. It can be a 22nd, Instagram reel, with pictures and pictures and pictures and lots of lots of music. I think the best example, if you think and look at how pharmaceutical companies are doing their commercials today, for Jardiance, or whatever those might be, whether it's a musical number, how often you see seniors at a farmers market, or at a kid's birthday party, but they're showing them connecting, and being being social, and family. And they just put these scenarios, you don't really know what the whole story is. But it puts it within the context as opposed to somebody holding up the product. And talking about the product. It's what do we want people to feel and I think that's the greatest opportunity for wine today, when looking at Gen Y millennials, or Gen Z is is is showing them in the in the kinds of situations that makes sense. It's laughter It's friendship, it's it's connecting, but it's also post fraternity party, it's post red solo cup, I could see a great ad campaign when you're ready to graduate from the red solo cup to a nice glass of Chardonnay, right? But that doesn't mean that somebody's 60 years old, it can be young and sophisticated. And the romance and all of that I think the stories can be told in short form, through the visuals, you know, and the music and all the things that and once again, here's here's a great thing about about YouTube, you can go on YouTube and search, how do you use YouTube? And you'll see a million videos, how do you create Instagram reels that capture the attention or look for others within your industry don't copy but emulate you know, which are the ones that get engagement and why I think it's an exciting thing to become a student of this. And I've learned so much from my kids who are no longer kids. My oldest daughter works for the number one social media channel on the planet. And they post videos and they get between 40 and 50 million views on their videos in the first 24 hours. Wow. And so what I'm learning from them is astonishing. And did I mention I wrote books on this?

 

Craig Macmillan  15:29 

You said you've got one out right now what is that?

 

David Arvin  17:22 

Yeah, well, but my new subject, and it's not really new. But I realized about seven or eight years ago because I talked about marketing and branding for most of my career, what are the what are the words we use that best describe and differentiate what we do in the marketplace. And I came to the recognition probably seven or eight years ago that we had changed in such a substantial way because of social proof that what we say about ourselves, is not unimportant, but it's not nearly important, today's what other people say about us. And it's Yelp and TripAdvisor and rotten tomatoes, and Glassdoor and of course all of the your own social media sites. So I might that's what led to my research would lead to my book, why customers leave and how to win them back is one of the points of frustration, friction in the process, unnecessary delays and, and lack of convenience for certain things. My whole business changed. And so all of my work and my research and my speaking and my books are around the central theme that in a marketplace where everybody's good. The winners are the ones who are ridiculously easy to do business with.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:56 

I think you just answered the question, but what is the one thing you'd recommend?

 

David Arvin  19:00 

There's two aspects Well, once the business aspect, and the other one is the marketing. So I think in terms of internal process, you have to be able to replicate what we're seeing in a broader marketplace. You have to be able to reach somebody, if somebody's yelling into the phone agent, real person real person, you're doing something wrong, right doesn't mean we can staff 24 hours but we're learning we can learn from Uber and Amazon and Domino's and others as well in terms of how do they use the mobile technology to make it super easy to reach someone to ask a question to reorder, make sure you have an off ramp so they can talk to a real person. That's the ridiculously easy walk your customers journey. Are there too many steps? How long is your contracts, we're seeing companies reducing their contracts and things that are really relevant and important. Be easy to work with your distributors and your vendors and others as well. And then of course on the marketing side is just recognize who not only your buyers are today, but your future buyers. Beware they are speaking language that's persuasive, authentic for them as well. And I think this this is one in industry and I speak to industries that are really struggling. I think the sky's the limit for the wine industry.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:05 

So where can people find out more about you?

 

David Arvin  20:08 

You find me online. My name is David Averin AVRIN, I'm on all social media on some of them. It's the real David AVRIN. That's a whole cat fish for another day. But you can look me up at Davidavrin.com or just google music videos as well. And as we had said, Before I speak and I consult. I love talking business. I'm a fan of business and I'm very optimistic about where we are post pandemic.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:32 

Fantastic. Hey, we gotta go. Thanks for being on the podcast. David. Our guest today was David Avrin, president of the customer experience advantage

 

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any will grow there at all. Joel Harms, Ph.D. student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow pinot noire in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. The project mapped 1,300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a crucial role in identifying the winegrowing regions of tomorrow.

Resources:        

• 207: Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards: Lessons from Cyclone Gabrielle in New Zealand
• Cal-Adapt
• Development of a generative AI-based model for guiding grape variety selection under contemporary climate dynamics
• Generative AI for Climate-Adaptive Viticulture Development
• Joel Harms Google Scholar Page
• Mapping Global of the Potential for Pinot Noir Cultivation under Climate Uncertainty using Generative AI
• University of Adelaide Wine Economics Research Center

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any, will grow there at all.

[00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director.

[00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Joel Harms, PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia.

[00:00:42] Joel is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow Pinot Noir in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool.

[00:00:52] The project mapped 1, 300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data. including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a critical role in identifying the wine growing regions of tomorrow.

[00:01:07] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start? Become a member of the Vineyard Team. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in.

[00:01:34] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Joel Harms. He's a PhD student in the Department of Bioresources Engineering at McGill University. And today we're going to talk about mapping global future potential for Pinot Noir cultivation under climate uncertainty using generative AI.

[00:01:51] Bye. Bye. This is a really interesting topic. I came across an abstract from a recent ASEV meeting and I was like, I just have to know more about this. This just sounds too interesting. But welcome to the podcast, Joel.

[00:02:04] Joel Harms: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:06] Craig Macmillan: What got you interested in this topic in terms of this wine grape region? Stuff.

[00:02:12] Joel Harms: I think it was more about I wanted to build models that are useful, I guess, broadly useful in vineyard management and like establishing new vineyards and like kind of covering some of the base problems. Initially, my thought was, how can we. see which grape varieties are alike.

[00:02:32] How can we like make a representation of them in like a latent space. But then I found out , if I do that, that's, you know, somewhat useful, but if I take that just a step further, I could just connect it with climate data already. And then we would have a model that could, be used for prediction and it would be so I guess. How do I say like broad or general enough so that you could apply it in any environment. So like any climate can be used to predict any grape suitability matrix, which is quite nice. And so then I thought, no, let's do it. Let's try that.

[00:03:11] Craig Macmillan: So your colleagues and yourself did some simulations, as we just mentioned specifically around Pinot Noir and the potential to grow it in different parts of the world that currently are considered too cool. Tell us exactly how you went about this.

[00:03:25] Joel Harms: The abstract is kind of a case study on one application of, These models that we built. So we built very general grape variety recommender systems based on climate. And so we wanted to show a cool application globally. This can be applied to find regions that will be too hot in the future.

[00:03:43] So we built the AI models first starting from looking at where grapes are grown and tying that together with what climate is there regionally. Unfortunately, you know, we can't use like very precise climate data because we don't have the exact location of each grape variety in each region.

[00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: hmm. Yep.

[00:04:03] Joel Harms: Yeah. So therefore, we use larger climate data. So like at 50 kilometer resolution, which is still helpful to, I think, gather overall trends, not so much, you know, to plan an individual vineyard probably, but just to see like in which areas maybe there would be. in the future interesting vineyard sites.

[00:04:23] Just like kind of as like a pre guidance sort of model. And then we, tested it. We tried to validate this model and then we presented a first case study with Pinot Noir because we were presenting in Oregon at the ASEV conference. So I figured, you know, might as well do Pinot Noir if we're already in Oregon.

[00:04:43] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain to me the artificial intelligence piece of this? I mean, you hear about it and you know, kind of what different types of AI do. I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know, that's a very general concept and people have designed particular tools for particular reasons.

[00:05:01] So, in this case, what exactly was the AI component? What's inside the box, basically? How does it work?

[00:05:07] Joel Harms: First off, I guess to explain for listeners , cause AI does get thrown around a lot and it's hard to know what that actually means. So when we're talking about AI, it's usually we're tying some sort of input data to some sort of output data. And we're teaching a very complicated mathematical function to map one to the other.

[00:05:25] So like kind of a correlation. But it's not a simple correlation. That's why we need these models and that's why they're pretty fancy.

[00:05:31] So in our case, we're using an AI that was inspired from the community of medical science, where similar models were used to connect, for example, the ECG measurements of a heart with like scans of the heart.

[00:05:50] And then Trying to tie both of those datas together and to reconstruct them again to see if, like, you could find correlations between those and maybe if one of them is missing, you could, , predict what it would look like. And so, since this is a very similar problem, , and we have similar input data in the sense of, we have grapes, which grapes are grown where, and we have what is the climate there, roughly.

[00:06:13] So we can tie that together and try to connect both of those types of data and then get an output of both of those types of data so that we can go from grapes to climate and climate to grapes in the same model. So we have these , you could say like four models. that are tied together at the center. So input grapes, input climate, then in the center where they get tied together and then output grapes, output climate. And so we train it to, reconstruct it from this combined space where we like, Scrunch it down, which is what the autoencoder does.

[00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: So if, if I understand correctly, what we're talking about is , we know that we have the data and we know where wine grapes are grown, different types for different climates. Then we have the climate data in terms of how things may change over time. And then we're creating a prediction of. How those climates change, and then translate that into what we already know about wine grapes.

[00:07:09] Joel Harms: Sort of. Yeah. But in our model for training, we just use the existing ones. So historical climate data and historical grape variety data. Once we have that model trained, we just apply it for new climates that come from like other climate models. So we don't do the climate modeling ourselves, but we extract that information and feed that into it and get the grape varieties output.

[00:07:31] Craig Macmillan: So you look specifically, at least reported on areas that currently are considered too cold for growing a high quality pinot noir or growing wine grapes in general. What did you find out? What Parts of the world might be the new leading Pinot Noir regions.

[00:07:46] Joel Harms: . So that depends a little bit on the exact scenario and how much the climate is supposed to warm. We have like two scenarios is what we looked at. We looked at a 8. 5 scenario and a 2. 6 scenario and going by the 8. 5 scenario, some of the regions that are improving are for example, Western China. And also Southern California, actually, and Quebec, , like Southern California is in Santa Barbara. I guess that's technically Central Coast,

[00:08:17] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, well, that's interesting There's a lot of Pinot Noir in Santa Barbara County in the in the coastal zones Any other regions that popped up?

[00:08:26] Joel Harms: Yeah, a lot of Australia seems to be doing better and like Northern France,

[00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Yeah pushing it to the north. Did England pop up?

[00:08:35] Joel Harms: England, yes, but England seems to like stay the same in compared to historical. So not like as if it's improving, at least like from this, like rough map that we made. What we want to do is do it a bit more finely. The, this prediction, because we currently just used regions where wine is already grown, but then try to like interpolate just for calculation efficiency. Outward. So like our maps are created not only by the model itself, because that would be too calculation intensive. So for the, for the sake of simplicity, we did it like this, but we're still writing the final paper. So, you know, don't invest just yet, wait a little bit and then,

[00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: I was gonna bring that up. Where should I put my money?

[00:09:19] Joel Harms: Exactly. So don't do that yet. Wait for the final paper and then we will double check everything over. Oh yeah. Arkansas was one that was improving too. Very interestingly. Yeah.

[00:09:28] Craig Macmillan: I was kind of surprised because having talked to guests, many guests from, you know, New York, from Texas, from people who consult in the Southwest Northern California, which can get quite warm. What we've talked about is the question of it getting too hot to grow quality wine grapes.

[00:09:49] You know, wine grapes will grow to tolerate quite high temperatures. So, for instance, the San Joaquin Valley in California, produces a lot of wine grapes. They're not considered to be very high quality compared to coastal zones. So the vines do great and produce good crops and all of that. So there's concern that areas that have been kind of in the sweet spot, kind of in the, we call it the Goldilocks phenomenon where climate, soil, time, everything just all kind of fits together.

[00:10:12] It sounds like this idea would be applicable to predicting what areas might become too warm for high quality wine

[00:10:19] Joel Harms: Yes. Yes. It's definitely the case. Yes. And in our maps. You can see both at the same time because it sees like relative change, positive, relative change to, to negative. Some areas that look like they're not going to do so well in the future or less good in the future, even though they're like really good right now is like Oregon, unfortunately.

[00:10:39] And the Azores or Northern Spain, even in Eastern Europe, a lot of areas. Seem to be warming up like in Romania at the coast. Not necessarily just the warming up part, but also because we consider 16 different climate variables, it could be the warming up part, but it could also be, you know, like the precipitation changing things like that, you know.

[00:10:59] Craig Macmillan: You said 16 variables, we talked, you got temperature, you got precipitation, what, what are some of the others?

[00:11:04] Joel Harms: Yeah, we got the growing degree days, the winter index, we got the Huggins index, we have radiation. Diurnal temperature range, the annual average temperature, for the precipitation, we have it like a three different scales, in the harvest month over the growing season and also throughout the whole year same for the temperature. And then we have the, growing indexes

[00:11:26] Craig Macmillan: do you have plans to do this kind of thing again? Or publish additional papers from the work you've already done, because I think, it sounds like you've got a lot of interesting findings,

[00:11:35] Joel Harms: Oh yeah. Yeah. The results only came in like right before the conference. We're still analyzing everything, writing everything. So the first thing that's coming up is a paper just on , how did we build the model and like all the validations and does it make sense with like expert classifications of how experts classify suitability for grapevines and things like that in the past to see if. That lines up as it should yeah, and then after that we'll publish some of these predictions and what we can learn from these and more detailed than how we did it right now where, most of it's like interpolated because we couldn't predict for every location, so like we predicted for some locations and interpolated. Just for computational efficiency, I guess, but you know, we're, we're getting there. Unfortunately, academia is quite you know, a slow profession. takes a lot of time.

[00:12:24] Craig Macmillan: Yes, yes it does. And then getting it published takes a lot of time with reviews and whatnot. And so I just want to put a time stamp on this. This is being recorded in October of 2024. So, Give it some months, at least several, several, several, several. But it's exciting. This stuff's coming out. It'll be in, be in the literature. That's really, really great.

[00:12:43] Joel Harms: And soon what we're trying to do is also release like a tool or something that, you know, where people can input their location and we can, our climate data, like call out the climate data and see what, what some of the predictions would be. Yeah.

[00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that's neat.

[00:12:59] Joel Harms: I might've done that for Niner Vineyards just now to see, to see what, what's a suitable there, but only the current ones.

[00:13:08] So I mean, it's kind of is exactly what you're growing.

[00:13:10] Craig Macmillan: Funny. You should mention that. There is a a website called CalAdapt that allows you to put in some ranges and some variables specific to your location, you put your location in, and then there's a number of different models that you can run. Some are very conservative, some are not in terms of what the predictions are for climate change globally.

[00:13:31] And then gives you a nice report on what the average temperature change might be in degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius also takes a stab at precipitation, although I talked to somebody who was connected to that and they said the precipitation is always kind of questionable. And also looks at things like heat waves, how many heat waves days over 100 or days over 95, you might expect because those can be quite fluctuating.

[00:13:55] damaging. Even, even though vines can tolerate heat, if they're not acclimated, getting these big stretches of over a hundred, for instance, can be kind of stressful. I did that and kind of looked at it myself and thought, huh, I wonder if we had better, more, um, detailed information, what that might look like.

[00:14:12] Another tool that was mentioned that you used was a deep coupled auto incoder networks. What are those?

[00:14:18] Joel Harms: So that was what I described earlier, like these component models , where we have a. The encoder and decoder part, the input part is the , encoder and the output part is the decoder. And in the middle of these we have a latent space and then the coupled part means that we're having multiple of these that share their latent space.

[00:14:38] So that's , where we're tying them together so that we can input either climate or grapes and get as outputs either climates or grapes. So it's like very, very flexible in that way and so I quite like that. And it turns out it does better than even some more traditional approaches where you just feed in climate and get out grapes like from a neural network or something like that.

[00:14:59] Just like a neural network, because we have technically like four neural networks and all of them have three layers. So that's three layers or more. And so that's what makes them deep.

[00:15:08] Craig Macmillan: Got it.

[00:15:09] Is this your primary work as a PhD student?

[00:15:13] Joel Harms: Well, as a PhD student, I'm still working on modeling. But not so much with grapevines, unfortunately. I'm looking at still climate models. How can we adapt for example, now we're looking more at the Caribbean. There's flooding issues. Particularly in Guyana. And so we're trying to, you know, help maybe the government to plan land use better in order to avoid, you know, critical areas being flooded, agricultural land being flooded and these type of things.

[00:15:41] So it's more looking at flooding modeling, there's definitely some overlap in that sort of work, it's definitely still like in the area of using data science to help decision making which is the overall theme of this work.

[00:15:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, and that was something that also came up in my little mini project was the potential for massive storms and also the potential for drought. Which, wasn't part of your work at this stage. Is that something that you would be able to find a way of including in your modeling that might give you some idea of how things might change?

[00:16:15] And it's specifically what I'm thinking of is Cyclone Gabriel, I believe it was called, Gabriella just devastated parts of New Zealand. And raised a lot of concern about how, you know, when we were in these coastal zones, we go, Oh, yes, it's mild. It's great. But we're right near the ocean.

[00:16:33] Right. And in October between 24, we've seen a very active hurricane season in the Caribbean and on the East coast and the Gulf. Do you think there's potential for this kind of thing to give us more of a heads up about what might be coming our way in terms of massive storm events? Cause that might affect how and what I do.

[00:16:52] Joel Harms: I guess this wouldn't depend really on the grape variety itself. That would be more like a citing issue, right? Like where do you plant?

[00:16:58] That's what we're looking at now with the like flooding mapping if there is a storm, where does the water collect? Which roads are cut off? Or, I mean, I guess in the case of vineyards, you could look at like, what would be the likely damage would there be now saltwater maybe even if you're depending on where you are. That's definitely something to look at.

[00:17:17] All you need is sufficient, like past data points. So you can calibrate your models and then. You know, look at different future scenarios and what will be important to for the future is to look at what's kind of the certainty of these predictions, right? Like, what are your error margins? What's your confidence interval?

[00:17:33] Because that might drastically alter your decisions. If it says, oh, it's probably not going to be too bad, but you're very uncertain about that, then you're probably going to take some more precautions than, you know, not because usually now we have A lot of models where their prediction is very, like is deterministic.

[00:17:50] So they say, this is how it will be. And it's hard to tell where, you know, where those margins are of error, which is something to look at in the future for sure.

[00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that is a challenge in the the model that I did for a Paso Robles vineyard Precipitation didn't really change very much which I was surprised by so it wasn't gonna become like a drought area completely but the potential ranged from five inches of rain a year to 60 inches of rain a year, which is why I was asking about these massive storms.

[00:18:21] Maybe our averages, continuous to what we have now, but it may be a bunch of craziness year to year around that. And I think that is interesting and useful to know. So you prepare for it.

[00:18:34] Joel Harms: that's something people are looking at, I think cause you can use some models to calculate sort of new climate indices. To see like from daily data train, like new climate indices to see these big storm events and things like that, and maybe incorporate that. That could help, , maybe with that sort of analysis of where even if it's the same average, the index is different because it measures something else.

[00:18:59] Yes, I wouldn't know what they're called, but yes, I believe this already exists and is being improved. .

[00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Yeah. With your experience so far, what do you see? Because everybody's talking about this. It's like the future in a world of artificial intelligence and this and that. In this particular area where you're, you're tying one set of variables to climate variables and also to historical weather.

[00:19:23] In the big picture, beyond just wine grapes, but in the big picture, any topic, where do you see this kind of work going? You touched on it a little bit, when you close your eyes and open your mind what does the future look like? What, kind of tools are we going to have and what kind of things are we going to be able to find out?

[00:19:38] Joel Harms: Yeah, that's interesting. I think it, it really depends on the data we have available and it looks like we'll have more and more data available.

[00:19:47] So better disease models, location specific disease models to plan spray schedules better and things like that, they seem to be coming. I think I've seen parts of that already from some companies rolling out.

[00:20:00] It's all about kind of the creatively using the data that you have available, because a lot of like my data, for example, that I used for this. This isn't necessarily new data, right? This comes from the University of Adelaide who collects where, which grape varieties are grown all over the world.

[00:20:17] And then just historical, climate data. It's not very new, but just to put these together in a meaningful way with AI, that's going to be the challenge. And then also to test, is this reliable or not? Because you could theoretically predict almost anything, but then you need to check, is it just correlation?

[00:20:39] Am I taking all the important variables into account? And we're developing AI very, very fast. But maybe we need to spend a bit more time, you know, trying to validate it, trying to see how robust it is, which is a major challenge, especially with these complicated models, because, I heard about this example.

[00:20:57] Where in the past, for some self driving cars, their AI that recognized stop signs could be tricked if there was a sticker on the stop sign, and it would ignore the stop sign. Even though there's not a big difference, but you can't test for, you know, all of these cases, what might happen. And that's kind of the same for, , what we are doing.

[00:21:17] So improving the testing, that would be, I think, a major A major goal to make sure it's robust and reliable or that it tells you how, how certain it is, you know, then at least you can deal with it, you know, and not just make a decision off of that. Yeah,

[00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. What the level of uncertainty is. That's always the getcha.

[00:21:33] Joel Harms: yes,

[00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: That's always the hard part. If you had one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, what would it be? Mm

[00:21:43] Joel Harms: Specifically for my models, it would be to take the current results with a grain of salt. And then to sort of use this to, narrow down like a selection of grapes and to still run tests and things like that. Cause it's regional data, right? It's not going to tell you exactly what you should grow in your location.

[00:22:02] Cause it's, you know, the weather data is based on four to 50 kilometers around you. You know, that's where we're like assembling the data from.

[00:22:10] Craig Macmillan: that a 50 kilometer quadrant?

[00:22:12] Joel Harms: yes. Yeah.

[00:22:13] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Okay. Gotcha.

[00:22:14] Joel Harms: Yes, exactly. So this tool is mainly used or useful if you use it to like pre select some varieties so you can see what might be good, you know, and then decide for yourself what you want.

[00:22:27] The take home message is like, it's not supposed to take away grape growing experts and things like that, or replace them in any way, but it's supposed to like support it because. There's so many grape varieties and if climate regions or like regions where we're growing grapes are changing, where the climate is changing, we want to get the best choice.

[00:22:47] And so we should probably look at all of them, all of our available options and see what we can do. It will narrow it down for you. And then, you know, you'll still have to see what works exactly for you. What wine do you want to produce? I mean, it doesn't take that into account, right? It just gives you what probably would grow well here.

[00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: .

[00:23:03] Yeah, then I think that there's going to be a future also in bringing in some either hybrid varieties or varieties that are not terribly well known. I've talked to people from Texas and from Michigan Pennsylvania, where the traditional vinifera only varieties don't do pretty well. Terribly well, often because of cold hardiness because of cold winters, they don't handle it, but there's hybrids that do great and make interesting wine.

[00:23:27] And I think that would be an interesting thing to include in a model or if it came out kind of like the winner was something we don't normally

[00:23:33] Joel Harms: Right. Usually we have a lot of hybrids in this because we have 1, 300 varieties.

[00:23:39] Craig Macmillan: wow. Oh, I didn't realize that.

[00:23:41] Joel Harms: so I think we have most of the. commercially used grape varieties, like in all aspects.

[00:23:48] Craig Macmillan: yeah, probably, probably.

[00:23:49] Joel Harms: Yeah. So it's quite, quite far ranging. We only excluded some where it was never more than 1 percent of any region, because then like our model couldn't really learn what this grape variety needs.

[00:24:00] Right. Because it's like too small, even in the largest region where it we cut those out. So, cause else we would have 1700. But then like the 1300 that actually get used commercially at a significant scale. Those we have. The model is actually built like we have a suitability index.

[00:24:18] But we're still trying to, , fine adjust so that we can rank not just what's popular and like how much will grow. Cause then you'll always get, you know, the top, the top 10 will look very similar for any region. But then through the suitability index, we actually get a lot of these smaller varieties that would fit very well also ranked in the top 10 or in the top 50 of varieties.

[00:24:41] Craig Macmillan: They've mentioned fine tuning the model at this point. Is this particular project or this particular model, is this gonna continue on into the future? It sounds you have ideas for improvements. Is this number one gonna continue on into the future and is there gonna come a point when This will be available for the industry, industries internationally to do their own trials.

[00:25:03] Joel Harms: Yes, I think so. So I think when we're publishing the paper latest at that point, we'll have the tool set up where people can try it out, put in, in their location. And I guess we're publishing the methodology. So you could build like a version of this yourself. It's not too crazy. Probably code will be published too.

[00:25:24] So, you know, you could build this yourself if you wanted to, or you could just use the models we have trained already. Okay. And just apply them to your case. That's what the tool is for. . Right now it's like all code based. So like, it's not, not so easy where you just, drop your pin, like where you're at and then it gives you some predictions, , that's what we're aiming for.

[00:25:44] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. So our guest today has been Joel Harms. He is a PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill. University. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really fascinating. I'm really looking forward to how this work progresses. And I think it's very eyeopening for us.

[00:26:01] Again, you know, one of the things I thought was fascinating is I've had all these conversations about areas that would no longer be suitable, but a flip on it and say, well, areas that might be suitable in the future. I hadn't thought of that.

[00:26:12] Joel Harms: Why not? You

[00:26:13] Craig Macmillan: why not? You know, that's, that's, that's a very interesting question, and it applies to other crops as well.

[00:26:18] I just had never really thought about it like that. You know, maybe you can grow oranges in Iowa at some point.

[00:26:23] Joel Harms: That, that would be nice. I guess.

[00:26:25] Craig Macmillan: maybe

[00:26:26] Joel Harms: maybe see.

[00:26:28] Craig Macmillan: we'll see. We'll see. You never know. Anyway, Joel, thanks for being on the podcast. I appreciate it.

[00:26:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Cal West Rain. Since 1989, Cal West Rain has served growers on California's Central Coast and the San Joaquin Valley. As a locally owned, full line irrigation and pump company, they offer design and construction experience in all types of low volume irrigation systems, whether they're for vines, trees, or row crops.

[00:27:03] In addition, CalWestRain offers a full range of pumps and pump services, plus expertise in automation systems, filtration systems, electrical service, maintenance and repairs, equipment rental, and a fully stocked parts department. Learn more at CalWestRain. com.

[00:27:23] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Joel, his research articles, plus sustainable wine growing podcast episode 207. Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards, Lessons from Cyclone Gabriel in New Zealand. If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review.

[00:27:44] You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.

 

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The Agricultural Worker Protection Standard is a set of U.S. EPA regulations designed to protect workers from exposure to pesticides. In January 2018, new regulations came into effect. Amy Wolfe, President/CEO of AgSafe discusses changes to the Worker Protection Standard including worker training, decontamination, and emergency response training.

References:

• AgSafe
• California Department of Pesticide Regulation Worker Protection Program
• S. EPA Agricultural Worker Protection Standard

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

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Thanks for music from Honey Bee by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)

Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100755

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Halter Ranch comprises 281 acres of winegrapes, 15 acres of organic walnuts, and 3 acres of olives situated in 2,000 acres of oak woodland. This means wild animals are a consideration in farming activities year round. Vineyard Manger Lucas Pope and his team have found ways to co-exist with the native fauna including deer, coyotes, mountain lion, and rattlesnakes.

References:

• 30: Managing the Landscape Around the Vineyard | Lino Bozzano (Podcast)
• Apex Predator (Slides) | Dr. David Headrick
• Critters Along the Creekside | Jodi Hilty
• Description of oak woodlands
• Halter Ranch
• Satellite photo of Halter Ranch
• SIP Certified
• Story about Justin Dellinger, the mountain biologist | San Luis Obispo Tribune

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Subscribe on Google Play,  iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

We regularly hear about eclectic tractors but have you tried an electric truck? Duff Bevill, Founder and Partner and Brooke Parsons, Viticulture Analyst at Bevill Vineyard Management were part of the Ford Pro Pilot Project. They tested the capacity of an electric van, truck towing capabilities, and battery life of electric vehicles during day to day farming operations. The pair discuss the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford’s Telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.  

Resources:        

• 120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying
• 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money
• 225: California’s Ban on Autonomous Tractors  
• Bevill Vineyard Management
• Farming of the Future: Ford Pro, Sonoma County Winegrowers Join Forces to Electrify Business of Farming
• Sustainable Farming in Sonoma County

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Transcript

[00:00:05] Beth Vukmanic: We regularly hear about electric tractors, but have you tried an electric truck? Welcome to sustainable wine growing with Vineyard Team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools. Through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

[00:00:37] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP Certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Duff Bevill. Founder and partner. And Brooke Parsons, viticulture analyst at Bevill vineyard management.

[00:00:55] They were part of the Ford probe pilot project, where they tested the capacity of an electric van. Truck towing capabilities and battery life of electric vehicles during day-to-day farming operations. The pair discussed the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.

[00:01:17] . Because you listened to this podcast, you won't want to miss the premier wine growing event of the year, the Sustainable Ag Expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts earn over 20 hours of continuing education. And explore sustainable ag. Vendors. It all takes place.

[00:01:38] November 12th through 13th, 2024 at the Madonna Inn expo center in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in.

[00:01:56] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Duff Bevill and Brooke Parsons. Duff is owner of Bevill Vineyard Management in Sonoma County. And Brooke Parsons is Viticulture Analyst with Bevill Vineyard Management. And we're going to talk about the Ford Pro Pilot Project that they're involved in. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:02:19] Duff Bevill: You bet, man.

[00:02:19] We're happy to be here.

[00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: So Duff, what exactly is this project? How'd you get involved in it? Give us a little history.

[00:02:26] Duff Bevill: Yeah, back in I think it was September, October of 2021. Well, I'm involved with the Sonoma County growers organization and Carissa Cruz, our president and Carissa.

[00:02:37] Got a name of somebody to call. And she made a cold call to a Ford motor company. And then I think one more phone call after that. And she got in touch with Ford pro told him what we were interested in doing. Thought whether it was a perfect fit because our sustainability program that we've you know, managed now for more than a decade, well over a decade.

[00:02:54] And Ford sent someone from Detroit out here to meet with us over dinner and another representative out of Sacramento that was, I think, a lobbyist for Ford, I can't remember exactly. His role, but both of them came out here and she cold called a couple of us to come and have dinner with his middle of harvest and yeah, we hit it off and she went back to I guess, technically Dearborn and told them back there that we were legitimate and she thought that they should pursue something with us.

[00:03:19] So that, that was in September, October, then in November around Thanksgiving. A team from Ford came to meet with us. They want to know size of our fleet of vehicles. They're just trying to get some, to find out how legitimate we might be. And they went back positive. And then the following January, so it'd be January of 2022 Ford came out full blown to Sonoma County, out to the Dutton Ranch.

[00:03:43] And we had a big, giant press release. President Jim Farley came out from Ford, all on film, gave a talk and that sort of thing, and it was a big deal. So that really launched, it's really January of 2022. Roughly probably March, I think it was, of 2022, they didn't have the lightened pickup trucks available yet.

[00:04:01] That was still, suffering from COVID, you know, and, and Production was down. So , they actually had some Ford vans, electric vans, which they just gave us a try and Brooke she was basically assigned that van and tried to figure out what to do with it. And so we, all collectively came up with an idea on how to use the vans, although you know, they're just not a fit for farming, but we made, we made it work out.

[00:04:23] And then I think it was in June, we finally pick up the lightning. So June of 2022, we've got the lightnings. And then what we did was we gave Ford feedback. We met with engineers, either Zoom or in person on a pretty regular basis for the better part of a year. More than a year probably.

[00:04:40] Just getting feedback from a farming point of view, you know, from us using vehicles in the field. And each one of the three companies used them differently and to gather information. I personally wanted to drive it so I could see. How it would work if I want to buy more, would actually work for me .

[00:04:56] I know one of the other companies used to have their shop mechanics use it and another company had one of their field foreman use it. So all of us really tried something different with it and for different reasons. But anyways, that's how it worked out. And we just fed information back and forth, making recommendations, you know, see if there's any flaws that Came up and we'd report back immediately to them.

[00:05:14] We saw something that Could be improved or or ask why it was the way it was that sort of thing

[00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: And we're talking about a completely electric vehicle that's designed for farm use Is that right?

[00:05:25] Duff Bevill: The concept of ford pro so I got my ford hat on right now the concept of ford pro It's a division that was created to really focus on business people with fleets so farming was a connection I don't think they thought of until we reached out to them.

[00:05:42] I think on paper, originally they were looking at the local contractor. You know, the guy was he drove it personally, he was the contractor, or he had a couple carpenters working for him. I think that was probably it initially. Whether they were thinking of farming at all until we reached out to them.

[00:05:58] I don't know. They almost certainly weren't thinking of wine grape growing on the west coast. I think that the whole name Ford Pro, it was really targeted to professional business people who would normally have a pickup truck and how they could adapt using electric vehicle.

[00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: I wasn't familiar with this until this came up for this episode. Is this product line is, is that commercially available at the time that you approached them? Is it available now? Is it still in kind of a testing state?

[00:06:26] Duff Bevill: They weren't available yet, but they were marketing in the summer of for sure the fall, but certainly the summer of 2021.

[00:06:33] I saw ads on TV or Something that would pop up on a website. If you're on Googling something else on a Ford pro for a lightning come up for 10 seconds and disappeared on it. It was a little bit of a tease at that point. But I know the one I got or the one that we have now was number one Oh nine.

[00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Okay.

[00:06:49] Duff Bevill: I used to kid them asking, tell them I wanted number one, but they wouldn't give it to me. But I got number one oh nine and, they were just beginning to market it you know, shortly after Covid hit. And so they continued to in, in 2021, you know, we were basically all shut down in 2020.

[00:07:05] And 2021 was still pretty disastrous, but they were but all their production facilities were shut down. I mean, they came to a halt just like everybody else. So I think they anticipated getting out there, marketing earlier, making it available earlier. But I think the biggest stumbling block was for, I think a lot of manufacturers, they just didn't have the chips from the big chip manufacturer in Hong Kong.

[00:07:25] And that was what it boiled down to. I think it was true for all the car companies. Yeah.

[00:07:30] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. I remember that.

[00:07:31] Duff Bevill: That was, you had to get that out there. And so they had a marketing plan. They created a division. They had a president of the division identified. The marketing team was in place.

[00:07:38] All the engineers were shifted to the Ford pro team. You know, we got to meet almost all those people, I could, make a phone call to one of the head engineers anytime I wanted to, or send them a text or an email.

[00:07:49] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:07:50] Duff Bevill: It was a real interesting experience.

[00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: And you said you got a van first, is that right?

[00:07:56] Duff Bevill: Yeah, Brooke drove it, yeah.

[00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: That got handed over to you, Brooke. What was that like? Did you have experience with electric vehicles prior to that? Did you have experience with vans prior to that? Were you, Pickup truck person.

[00:08:05] Brooke Parsons: Good questions. Yes. I had never driven a van much prior, especially for viticultural tasks. Before using the e transit, I used a pickup with a trailer that I would load a four wheeler onto the trailer and the e transit took the place of the trailer and the pickup. So I loaded With a ramp. The four wheeler inside.

[00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Oh, it was a pretty good sized vehicle then.

[00:08:33] Duff Bevill: Yeah. A half ton chassis. It was basically F-150 chassis, but the van, you know?

[00:08:38] Craig Macmillan: Oh like a panel van.

[00:08:40] Duff Bevill: Exactly.

[00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. I was thinking like in a condo van.

[00:08:44] This is more like a panel van. You got room to put stuff in. That makes sense. More like a, more like a service truck.

[00:08:48] Brooke Parsons: Like a service truck. So I'd open the back of it to load the four wheeler, but I could also open the side to access my tools and whatnot. It was nice.

[00:08:59] Duff Bevill: They actually outfitted it with shelving. Which would have been perfect if you were like a plumber or an electrician. But with the shelving it made the bay too narrow that we couldn't even fit the four wheeler and ATVs, so we had to take the shelving out so we could use it for that purpose.

[00:09:14] You know, we just substitute trailer and a pickup truck for the van. But how long did you drive that van?

[00:09:20] Brooke Parsons: I drove it for one full season, so May or June through the end of harvest.

[00:09:25] Craig Macmillan: How did you find that? Cause you see that all the time. You see the truck with the trailer, with the ATV in the back.

[00:09:30] How did you find that moving up to a van? Did you find it easier to drive? More difficult? Were you not as confident

[00:09:34] Brooke Parsons: I loved it because I didn't have to worry about a trailer and I didn't have to unload it each night to put it in the barn. So I just closed it all up and it was safe inside the van.

[00:09:46] If I went anywhere. I felt safe to leave the four wheeler locked inside and it wouldn't be tampered with. It was simple enough to bring back to the shop and charge every day and be ready to go the next morning.

[00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: That was gonna be my next question, Brooke. So when you first started with this, did you have any concerns about range?

[00:10:05] Duff Bevill: All of us do.

[00:10:07] Brooke Parsons: Yeah, that was the number one concern was range. For our operation, we farm all in Sonoma County and in a given day, I wasn't driving more than say a hundred miles in the van and it did make a difference in the range, whether or not I had weight in the vehicle or not, or if I use the heat or not.

[00:10:32] I didn't have as much range in the van as the Ford Lightning. And I had to be careful there were a couple of scary moments that I thought I'd have to call Somebody to come get me, but I never ultimately ran out of power

[00:10:48] Craig Macmillan: So with a little practice and a little experience, you knew

[00:10:51] Duff Bevill: If you were to buy a a ford lightning, I don't know about the other electric vehicles in the ford product line But for sure the lightning you would have a choice of, I think, two different battery packs.

[00:11:02] One they refer to, I believe it's just standard. And then they had a second option or an option that would be the extended battery. My understanding at the time, the Ford, pro version of the Ford Lightning came with a standard battery. But when they heard I was, you know, initially I was getting over 300 miles in a charge, I asked them about that and they said let us get back to you.

[00:11:22] Well, a week later they got back and said, oh yeah, that's right, we set yours up, or the three, but for sure mine, the one we still have, with the big battery. They sort of custom built that truck. These three are one offs in that first early run of the heavier battery pack, which to me and I suggested this to him, if the marketing is intended to be to the professional business owner driving a pickup truck, I think Ford pro should just be, you have a standard big battery in it for those reasons.

[00:11:50] They may do that. I have no idea. You're got a professional driver. He's in there going from. The lumber yard to the job site down to the Supply depot for something else. I would just think that's just based on our habits in the farming industry.

[00:12:03] You're shuffling around and it seems to me that'd be a good option, but anyways, It worked out great for me.

[00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: So you've been driving the lightning now for a little while, right?

[00:12:11] Duff Bevill: I drove it for the first two I guess nine months just so I could assess How I might want to buy more of them for , our operation here.

[00:12:19] We buy a couple of pickup trucks every year. I gave , the, pickup to Brooke. So she now drives the pickup cause we turned the van back in.

[00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: I figured that might get kicked back to you so Brooke now you've driven the van now you're driving the truck How do you feel about the truck?

[00:12:31] Brooke Parsons: It handles better than any vehicle. I've ever driven. I love to drive it. I'm very proud of it and I Like it a lot zero complaints

[00:12:41] Craig Macmillan: Even though you have to have a trailer again

[00:12:42] Brooke Parsons: Even though I have to have a trailer again, that's okay.

[00:12:45] Duff Bevill: It was remarkable how it seemed like it was luxurious riding because the electric horsepower, . That thing is so powerful. One of the things, again, my understanding of the engineers, they redesigned the chassis on it.

[00:12:57] So Ford that F one 50 has four wheel, all four corners, independent suspension. Soon as we got to, we put it up on the rack to take a look at the, Technology underneath it. Look at the batteries, you know, you're not touching anything, you're just looking at everything.

[00:13:10] And they designed this beautiful cast aluminum suspension for the back end of that truck. That you'd find in a, I don't know, luxurious European automobile, I think. But it's built heavy to handle all that, torque. You know, oh, it's like, I don't know, 800, horsepower when you push the special button on the dashboard, you know, and it's pretty stunning the performance and that's all torque.

[00:13:31] That's twisting power. And so the engineers had to design into that thing, something capable of handling that much torque is beautiful. But the point is a four wheel independent suspension just rides beautifully cars heavier. So about a thousand pounds heavier, I think because of the batteries. So the comments, the extra weight.

[00:13:47] And a very sophisticated suspension. It's just like a luxury sedan. And you're driving pretty nice.

[00:13:52] Craig Macmillan: And so Brooke, you've been driving this truck now, one of the things that has come up around electric vehicles has been the question of horsepower end of torque.

[00:13:59] How do you feel this truck performs compared to like, let's say a diesel dually,

[00:14:03] Brooke Parsons: It accelerates very quickly, so getting onto the freeway is no problem when it's busy. And the other biggest factor that I notice is braking. You hardly have to brake and it takes a little bit of time to get used to because when you take your foot off of the accelerator, it naturally stops because the engine isn't going.

[00:14:29] And you hardly have to use your brakes, which is very nice.

[00:14:33] Duff Bevill: When I first got it, my wife had a Prius many, many years ago, and she pretty much drove it right off the lot. The way it was set up from the dealer. Well, I discovered that you could switch to regeneration on electric. So when you did let off the throttle, it would break by regenerating electric motors, regenerate electricity, put it back in the battery.

[00:14:52] Well, that's the first thing I did on this lightning. Find that setting I think in the nine months that I drove it I told the guys at Ford I said, I'll bet you I didn't touch the brakes ten times in those nine months

[00:15:03] Brooke Parsons: but to answer your question I've only pulled light things behind it and So I haven't really put it to the test in that way.

[00:15:13] Craig Macmillan: I was doing a little research on this and I understand that there's like a data collection and management component to this that's attractive.

[00:15:19] What can you tell me about that? Have you used that feature? It can tell you about your fleet, I guess?

[00:15:24] Duff Bevill: Aside from electric vehicles Ford was really interested in us, Using and learning to use, and hearing back from us, their telematics. That's what they call it, Ford Telematics.

[00:15:37] And I think it was initially launched with the Ford Pro division, where you sign up every vehicle in your fleet. We've got like 20 Ford pickup trucks, something like that. If you go back all the way, I want to say like to 2014.

[00:15:49] Prior to that, I'm not sure, but for sure, like 2014, the electronics in those vehicles have the capability of just hooking up to the telematic system. The Ford is promoting, and if you get it into your fleet and get your, your vehicles in entered in your fleet, you can monitor them. Of course, like GPS, that's what everybody's doing nowadays, but much more than that, your shop manager could know, have a better use of knowing when it's time for an oil change, you know, we just do it.

[00:16:14] We track that kind of stuff, hard copy paper, put a sticker on the dashboard and the drivers relay to us when the mileage number comes up, they notify the shop manager and we schedule for a service. Typically the oil filter change and then in general inspection we inspect the brakes and all that kind of stuff.

[00:16:31] With the telematics they have the potential setting up where you could punch in a timeline that you wanted either by the calendar. Like every 12 months on the vehicles that we don't run very much. We do a major inspection every 12 months. And then the ones that actually have the mileage being for somewhere between five and 7, 000 miles, something like that.

[00:16:50] Depends on the vehicle. Depends on the tractor or it's a pickup truck or a full size class eight diesel truck. And so all that stuff is available. And one of the pluses and this happened to us. It was a perfect, we've used this as an example. Typically in modern vehicles, the components that fail first are the sensors that measure your NOX exhaust pipes.

[00:17:11] Those are the ones that are going bad. Probably because of the heat cycle they go through because of their exhaust pipes, right? So about anywhere between 40, 000 and 60, 000 miles, those are the devices that fail. So one of our foremen called the shop, our shop manager, and said check engine light came on.

[00:17:27] I guess he got the code through telematics, identified it as an oxygen sensor, ordered the part. The truck never came back to the shop. It's still out on the job site. We're supposed to be with the crew. He gets the parts ordered. The delivery guys bring the part to the shop that day. And it's interesting how it works is that is the analysis is it is 90 percent likely it's your oxygen sensor. They come up and then when the guy back that night, they bring it right into the shop and change that sensor. At the end of the day, confirmed that that was the part that needed to be replaced.

[00:18:00] The next day was back on the job site, all repaired. The only other way around that would have been. Bring it back to the shop. Get your, your analysis device on it, you know, on the onboard computer or mechanic drives out to the job site, does the same thing at the job site.

[00:18:16] And then it comes back or it comes out, orders the parts on a telephone or something like that. So it's saves time. There's no doubt about it. And there's a lot more to, manage a lot of the of systems we have already in place Ford doing the same thing with their telematics.

[00:18:28] So some of the things Didn't have any added value because we already have that kind of technology, but they were expanding a lot of that technology for fleet management. So that's a real plus. And they were constantly tweaking that in making improvements on the usability of it and that sort of thing.

[00:18:44] So that was a big deal. That was a big one.

[00:18:47] Craig Macmillan: The fleet management aspect of having an electric vehicle like this with this kind of a technology going into the future could be huge for a farm, could be huge for a management company like yourself that has properties all over the place. That kind of remote diagnostic is really amazing.

[00:18:59] The idea of like, Hey, the light's on. Okay, I'll fix it tonight. No problem.

[00:19:03] Duff Bevill: Well, the other big plus is when we put that lightning up on the rack, just to take a look at it, you know, we're just kind of noodling through the, , there's no oil to change in an engine. We found one plug access to a transmission on it.

[00:19:18] But even the owner's manual says don't touch any of that kind of stuff. You know, they can be serviced, but there's no schedule for servicing. The disc brakes, I don't think you'd ever If you use the vehicle to its maximum value, I don't think you'd ever put brakes in it. There's no transmission transitions made up of hundreds and hundreds of parts. It's not electric motors or a simple, simple mechanical device and the internal combustion engine has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of parts that aren't there. So it has the potential of being over the ownership timeline of it.

[00:19:52] A lot less cost per mile. Even when you, you calculate in your Cost of electricity charge, but we have here and we've got solar panels here too. We already had installed From a number of years ago So we've got sort of that added advantage whether the electric vehicle made a little bit even more sense because we're already kind of using discounted Power

[00:20:11] Craig Macmillan: that was going to be my next question. i'm assuming your solar is connected to the grid So it's an offset so you're not islanded, but you still have the, you're generating power on your own.

[00:20:20] So you've got onsite power generation to power your fleet to a degree. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's fantastic. I remember years ago people were complaining about diesel engines and friends of mine were like, well, if you build us a solar truck, I'll freaking drive it. I got no problem with that.

[00:20:33] Well, here we are. What do you know? It's 30 years later, we have solar trucks, in effect. There has to have been some obstacles to adopting this. Were there some roadblocks or some things you had to learn along the way before you really felt like you were totally comfortable?

[00:20:46] Duff Bevill: Well, like I said, I was familiar with a hybrid.

[00:20:49] I still drive a hybrid. I drive a hybrid Ford pickup truck now. We had to get a charging station installed. Here at the office and then, you know, there's a decision. Do I do it at home or do the office? I wanted to hear at the office because that's where the fleet is parked and I had to think through, you know, get the one installed and how many more can I have and how many trucks will it eventually service without a major infrastructure redesign.

[00:21:11] So we've got that one put in and I, in the process, I had the electrician who was recommended to us. I had him install extra conduits underground. That are dummy right now. I assume we'll, we'll, extend for more pickup trucks.

[00:21:25] That was really the big obstacle. And then that's why I drove it because I want to know firsthand exactly what I was up against. I accomplished what I wanted. I want to learn as much as I could about it. Being there, having access to the Ford people, especially the engineers. Was on the fast track of having a better understanding.

[00:21:40] I got to talk to the guys who actually, one guy designed the grill, the other guy designed the dashboard. I mean, I was talking to those,

[00:21:45] Craig Macmillan: you had access. Yeah. That's, that's pretty amazing. Brooke, what was your learning curve? Like you talked about a couple of things, but were there obstacles that you felt you kind of ran across that you had to figure out, or that could be improvements

[00:21:56] Brooke Parsons: just forming the habit of charging.

[00:21:57] One time I forgot and. I was responsible for getting people someplace in the morning and it made me nervous. But you do that once or twice and you don't forget. So that was the real only obstacle. When traveling a longer distance, I did have to learn how to find charging stations that work well, are compatible with the lightning.

[00:22:25] And Ford is making advances in that area, now partnered with Tesla to use their system. And so that will only improve. But really it's around learning how to use the logistics of electric charging.

[00:22:44] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that's true for electric charging. For all of that. And you're right. I think a little bit of practice.

[00:22:49] Most of the folks that I know with electric vehicles, they're scared at first, and then they kind of figure it out. Now that you've had a chance to work with this, I think I already know the answer to this question. I mean, there's a question for both of you. When you were looking to your crystal ball, how do you see this technology being applied in the future?

[00:23:03] Duff Bevill: Think there's a place for it. I'm not so sure that one type of energy source is going to be the, solution for everything. I think practically, I think it's going to be some kind of a combination of energy sources and I don't discount nuclear.

[00:23:14] There's probably a place for everything, certainly in a transition period that that'll work best for all. Electrician put in the the charging station for us. He said, , if everybody's gonna go electric, the package must be solar panels, um, battery storage, either a large battery storage in a community setting, you know, like in a neighborhood or a small city size.

[00:23:37] Or you'll have battery storage areas that is appropriate, like maybe at our farm shop. Because we're commercial, we would be a candidate for battery storage, at least for our operation. So you'd have a solution for, you know, we're back to Sonoma County weather conditions again for the first time in quite a few years.

[00:23:55] I mean, it's overcast and rainy a lot of days out of the year. If you have solar panels, they're just not going to be working as efficiently and you still have to go to work every day and get your people to work. If you are relying. Let's say exclusively on electric, you've got to have something other than solar panel on the roof

[00:24:09] so windmill, solar panels, battery storage, there's some combination of multiple technologies. I just think that's sort of realistic of what it is. Do you want 95 percent of it to be coal? No, none of us do, you know, cause we all know the story there, but is, is there a place for coal for 10 percent of it?

[00:24:25] 15 percent of it. Don't know. I have no idea. It's good. I mean, we liked it. It's you know, just, we're not relying on it entirely right now, but we'll phase into it as time goes on.

[00:24:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, that was going to be, and and maybe Brookie also can kind of speak to this. I mean, is there a time when there isn't going to be a diesel truck on the farm?

[00:24:40] Duff Bevill: We're more concerned about diesel tractors. You know, the evolution went from, steam, you know, the early 1900s. The steam to, and then, you know, both in automobiles and, and on, on the farm, the competition was steam or gasoline because diesel wasn't invented yet.

[00:24:58] diesel engine wasn't invented until the 1920s. So turn of the century, 19th and 20th century, it was a competition between steam and gasoline, gasoline won. So gasoline surge forward all the way into the 1930s and with a few exceptions and in the 1940s, but by the 1950s. There was a clear transition that diesel was much, much more efficient, you know, pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower.

[00:25:24] I can't even think of where you could buy a gasoline tractor once you got in the 1970s. I'm sure you could still, but it represented a really small percentage. And by the 80s and 90s, it's all diesel.down to almost lawnmower size you can get it John Deere ride along more, you probably have a choice between gasoline and and diesel power to mow the golf course,

[00:25:42] that's actually transitioning to electric now too, you know, those, those small ones will plug it in and then mow for two hours, we're not even in the transition part of that story yet.

[00:25:52] There's a couple, manufacturers that have electric tractors the, inconvenience of them is really insurmountable right now, but changing batteries at lunchtime in your barn and that kind of stuff, tough. That's, tough technology.

[00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: It's still new. Yeah, this is still new. We're still finding our way there. I've talked to people about that topic quite a bit. It'll get better. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Hey, Brooke, what is one thing that you'd recommend to listeners if they're thinking about adopting electric vehicles for the farm?

[00:26:20] Brooke Parsons: Would say be open to trying new things. It expands your mind and. It allows opportunity that would not be there otherwise. And be okay with mistakes. That's how we learn.

[00:26:37] Craig Macmillan: That's great advice. I think that's really, really good. Where can people find out more about you at Beville Vineyard Management?

[00:26:43] Duff Bevill: Look at our website BevillVineyard.Com Get you right to the, right to the website.

[00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Well, I want, to both for being here. Thanks, Duff, and thanks, Brooke, for being here.

[00:26:51] Duff Bevill: Well, thank you for reaching out to us.

[00:26:53] Brooke Parsons: You're welcome. Thank you.

[00:26:55] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Valent. Bio-sciences a leader in biostimulants constantly delivering, cutting edge innovation to maximize their customers yields and ROI.

[00:27:14] Their are 40 plus products span the three bio stimulant brands providing solutions for every acre. Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Bevill vineyard management. Articles on the Ford Pro Pilot project and sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 120 autonomous drone vineyard spring. 219 intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 225 California's ban on autonomous tractors.

[00:27:44] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. That helps us reach more listeners. Like you, you can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org / podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org.

[00:28:00] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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When it comes to labor and employment, the best thing that you can do is be proactive, says Anthony P. Raimondo, Attorney, and Founder of Raimondo Miller A Law Corporation. Anthony covers the importance of accurate, individualized timekeeping, not just a work schedule. Today, there is software that supports both employers and employees. Right from your tablet or smartphone, you can track clock ins and outs, verify that the employee received their breaks, and even provide telehealth. Anthony provides an update on current union laws, what you need to know whether you use a management company or farm labor contractor, and how growers of any size can stay up to date with recent laws. 

Resources:

• REGISTER: 7/14/2023 Pre-Harvest Safety: Train-the-Trainer
• Amendments to California Agricultural Bargaining Process Per Governor’s Agreement with Unions
• California Alters Union Process for Agricultural Workers
• Raimondo Miller A Law Corporation

References:

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• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

And with us today is Anthony Raimondo, he is an attorney and founder of the law firm of Raimondo and Miller in Fresno, California. And we're going to talk about some legal and regulatory things that are affecting growers all over the nation in the west coast and local states. Thanks for being here, Anthony.

 

Anthony Raimondo  0:15 

Thank you for having me.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:17 

You've been interviewed and have written and have appeared widely and have had a number of interesting insights. And there are a couple of things that I picked up on from looking at when your interview is that I really for me, it spoke to me personally, because I was in the vineyard side of things for a long time. And that's the issue of timekeeping. I'd love to talk a little bit about the kind of exposure legal exposure that a grower might have around timekeeping, which on the surface sounds like a very simple thing and in the field turns out not to be a very simple thing. And also what kind of practices a grower might get into trouble for what some ways growers can protect themselves? What kind of what kind of experience do you have in this topic?

 

Anthony Raimondo  0:49 

It's something that we deal with quite a bit, we deal with both the compliance aspect of things kind of that front end planning of how do we do things to stay out of trouble. But we also deal with the defense side, a lot of the litigation that's going on right now is class action or collective action litigation, where you have one or a couple of workers who stand in for the entire workforce, over a period of years alleging a range of different wage and hour type violations. And a lot of those things really come down to timekeeping.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:22 

Gotcha. Now, what we used to do back in the day was people would show up, and the management would show up, and we had a clipboard with an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper. And we sign people in and check them off. And then we basically looked at our watches and said, Okay, we're starting at 9:05. And then everyone at work, then we check what time we came back for lunch, etc. It seems like that would work perfectly well. But we did have some issues with folks along the lines that that kind of disputed how accurate that was, or those are the kinds of things that get people kind of in trouble kind of backward, or what's the source of some of these complaints?

 

Anthony Raimondo  1:56 

Well, those things have for a long time been in place and have for a long time have been an issue and a lot of it comes down to accuracy. So when you have what we call a daily cruciate, which is very traditional way of keeping a field where like you say, on a clipboard or something similar, we have a list of people's names. And you know, maybe the upper right corner, we have a start time and a stop time and everybody's name gets filled in on that list, with the total number of hours. And if there's piecework what units they produced at, et cetera. Well, way back in time, one of the very first lawsuits I dealt with in my career in agriculture was in a table grape operation, where they had a similar method of timekeeping. But what they actually did is they would cut the bottom off of one of the grape boxes, and the former for the crew would flip that over and draw a grid on the back of it, write, everybody's name on it, and would write the in and out types, as well as grid information and the total hours for each worker. So everybody had the same in and out time, because it was all being kept collectively. And in a deposition of one of those foreman, the plaintiff's attorney asked the foreman, how he prepared these cardboard time records. And he said, Well, you know, we come when the crew arrives, I get there a little bit before the crew and I draw the grid on the back, you know, I write the start time, and I write the stop time. And it was a very big aha moment for the plaintiff's attorney, because, of course, what she honed in on is that he's writing that start and stop time before any of those happen. Right? Because he's writing the start and stop time at the beginning of the day, what he's writing is the schedule of the crew, not the actual events that happen, we really need to have individualized time records, right, because somebody always shows up late, somebody always leaves early, having a crew of 10, 15, 20, 30 people where everybody has the same in and out time, really isn't terribly reliable, because it might generally be so that this is what happened here. There are they work together, they work the same. But as I mentioned, people show up late people leave early, somebody gets sick, somebody gets hurt, these things all happen, where those individual variations are what led to the accuracy of it, and also those records being kept contemporaneously. And what we've seen over the years, this accelerate in recent years, which I'm happy about, is the increasing use of technology as a solution. And I really think one of the most important thing for growers to do is to embrace technology as a solution. And it's not just about the legal compliance aspect of things. Some of the timekeeping solutions they have out there are fantastically advanced now. So, you know, we can have foremen now keeping time on a tablet. We have in some of the types of ag operations I deal with. We have harvesters who have individualized, it's almost like a nametag that they wear where they're in and out time can be kept visually, there's like it's like an electronic pen. They swipe that with the clock people in and clock people out there in and out times for their meal breaks recorded. We have devices where employees can clock in and out individually by cell phones if their smartphones. And by the way, a lot of those can be used for other types of risk management, a lot of the software that's out there now will ask the employee when they clock out at the end of the day, did you have any injuries today? Did you get your meal period today? It's your rest period today. They can be programmed to answer a series of questions that deal with a lot of our risk management issues not only related to things like Wage and Hour liability, but related to workplace safety related to workers compensation, this technology can have a multitude of different benefits, I have one client that I represent, and more started to do this sort of thing, who has even gone to using remote technology, what they really found, like medical triage out in the field. So they have a telemedicine link set up with a monitor out in the field where if a worker is injured, or report some type of illness or injury, they can actually connect remotely to medical providers who can evaluate that injury very quickly. And a lot of times, what they've done is they've reduced their workers comp claims, because they can deal with the small things. First Aid incidents out in the field which aren't reportable to workers comp, rather than the treatment gets delayed, response gets delayed. And then something that could have been dealt with as a first aid accident in the moment now becomes a medical visit down the road, which just creates cost for everybody. So there's a lot of technology out there as an industry need to embrace.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:21 

That's really interesting, because I think that actually is a benefit for both workers and for management.

 

Anthony Raimondo  6:25 

Absolutely.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:26 

If I have confidence that my hours are getting counted accurately, I'm more confident, more secure. If I'm being asked, you know, did these things happen? It does cause me to reflect and say yes or no or whatever. That's it, I think it's really cool. And these are things can be done on a tablet can be done on a phone remotely. Obviously,

 

Anthony Raimondo  6:41 

There's there's a variety of different ways to do this. There are even methods for where there is no internet connection, or there's no cell phone signal. You know, a lot of our folks are in areas where signals are. We've seen for years and years, especially in like the strawberry industry. And some of the other areas of the industry I deal with, they have these, you know, we call them pens, but they're these big data devices. And they will actually save the data on that device. And that can be brought to an office after the is over dropped off the data downloaded. And you can preserve your data, even when you don't have a connection where the tablet or cell phone works. So there's a wide variety of technological solutions available. And I think you're absolutely correct. The best thing about a lot of these solutions is they really are win wins for both the workforce and the employees. You know, it's an it's an interdependence in the industry, the employees need the job and the income, the employer needs the employees to be able to get the work done to produce the product, we can have solutions that work for everybody and benefit everybody.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:39 

That's fantastic. This is new to me. So I'm really glad to hear that this kind of thing is happening. I want to switch gears a little bit here. There's been some changes, I believe in the agricultural Labor Relations Act or the way that it works. Regarding unionization, can you tell us a little bit about that and what the implications might be?

 

Anthony Raimondo  7:55 

Yeah, I'm gonna qualify this because some of it is very much in flux, because there are some regulatory activity going on the agricultural labor relations board in terms of the implementation of the new law. So let me back up and give you what what used to be the case. So you can have context for what the what the changes that has been made, historically, our going back to 1975, when the when the Act was first implemented, what are the things that was going on prior to the ACA was this kind of wild west world of unionization, and there was a big struggle between the United Farm Workers and the teamsters as to who was going to represent workers out in the field, it was very, very contentious. It was one of the things that led to the passage of the agricultural Labor Relations Act, because sometimes that contentiousness even broke out into violence between the competing unions, but what happened was, there was a perception amongst some growers that the teamsters made would be easier for them to deal with or more favorable for them to deal with than the United Farm Workers Union. So a lot of growers that before the law passed would sign contracts with the with the Teamsters, in order to keep the UFW United Farmworkers out. So one of the things that Cesar Chavez actually insisted on when the act was developed was that the only way for a union to gain the right to represent workers in agriculture be through a secret ballot election. In our Federal Labor Law employer believes there has evidence that a majority of their workers want a union, they can simply recognize the union and say, okay, the people want you. Let's sit down and negotiate. Chavez didn't want that because he was afraid that growers would actually voluntarily recognize the union, the teamsters union to cut the UFW out of the equation. So there was this insistence have to have secret ballot elections, because secret ballot elections will actually show truly who the workers want to represent them. So the way the process has worked ever since and is a union has to get a majority of workers to sign what are called authorization cards, which are just little cards that say they want to be represented by the union. They would turn those into the agricultural labor relations With a petition document that answered certain qualifying questions, and if all of the requirements were met for an election, including a majority of workers are expressing a desire to have the union, the agricultural Labor Relations Board would send personnel out to the field, they'd set up a ballot box in a voting booth, you know, much like we would do in an in person election in the political world, and the workers would vote in their secret ballot election, yes or no whether they want a union. Ballots would be counted. And assuming there were no irregularities in the election, that result would be certified. And if the union won that election, they would become the representative of the employees of that employer. What has happened over the years is that the UFW has become extremely ineffective when it comes to organizing farm workers. They simply cannot win elections. And in recent years, they really organizing has been dead, because every time even when they try to organize workers, they either fail, or they end up losing the election. Even if they can get a majority of those cards to get an election, they lose the election. And in the last 10 year, there have been far more elections to actually vote the UFW out from workers who no longer want their representation than there have been elections to vote the UFW . The combination of this pattern. And a few years ago at a large farm in the San Joaquin Valley called Groveland farms. I was involved in this because what happened there was the union and won an election back in the 90s, and had never had a contract there. They kind of went away for a long time, and no one had heard from them. The I want to say 16 ,17 years of no contact between the company, the union, all of a sudden the union pops up and says we still represent these workers, we want to have a contract, the workers found out about it, they didn't want the union. And a group of these workers came to me and I ended up representing these workers for five years on a pro bono basis, we forced an election to be held, the state did not want to count the ballot for those elections, we had to litigate that ultimately, we won that litigation. And 85 plus percent of the workers had voted against the union. And that no, that company remains a non non union. As a reaction to that you now have a law where that was just passed, it took effect January one of this year, that really were for practical purposes removes the secret ballot election from this scenario. Now, there are two alternatives under the law, what they call a labor peace election and a non labor peace election. These aren't really elections, a labor peace election is something that we're probably never going to see because it requires a grower to sign and file a document with the state that says that they will never oppose union representation amongst their workers, growers just simply do that, if that happens, there's a mail ballot process that will happen where the union can gain representation rights to these mail ballots. But I really don't think it's ever going to happen. What really the law is, is now if a union gets a majority of workers to sign something like authorization cards, some document that says, we want the union, instead of that triggering an election to happen, that's now going to lead to a union certification, and the union will gain the right to represent the workers without election. Let me backup. So what we will see happen now is the union representation process. And this is really the meat of this law is where previously a union having worker sign authorization cards or some other similar document, expressing a desire to be represented by the union. Historically, that would mean let's have an election and find out what these workers really want. And by the way, as I mentioned earlier, in a vast majority of circumstances, the union would have an overwhelming majority of those cards. But when presented with a secret ballot, the workers would vote against the Union. But now, those authorization cards alone will be enough for the Union to become certified as the representative of the workers, which will create a duty to bargain by the grower to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with the union. And it's important for growers to understand, especially in the wine industry, because there's such a prevalent use of vineyard managers and farm labor contractors. When you have a foreign labor contractor, under this law, the farm labor contractor doesn't exist, those employees are attributed to the grower. So it's not like if the union comes in, the grower can get rid of one farm labor contract or hire another one be free of the Union, the union will still be there that attaches to the grower not to a labor contractor. And for these purposes, in a majority of situations, even a vineyard manager would be considered a farm labor contractor. Under the law. There are some circumstances where a vineyard manager can actually stand in the shoes of the grower. But those are really where you have like an absentee landowner and a vineyard manager that has a long term history of managing the particular property such that the vineyard manager really is acting as the grower. But in most circumstances where there are vineyard managers and farm labor contractors, the union obligation will attach to the grower not to that manager not to that contract.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:59 

Interesting. And so the implications for this are that people may organize or be organized. And the, the quality of the decision is a little bit questionable that kind of what the takeaway is?

 

Anthony Raimondo  15:16 

Yeah, I think it's very prone to fraud. It's very prone to deception. I've been doing this for a long time in a lot of different industries. And I've been involved in a lot of different union elections, and employees sign these cards for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it's because they truly want a union. Other times they don't understand what it is that they're signing. Other times they're pressured into signing, sometimes there is outright fraud. There's a lot of different issues with this. But one of the big issues I think, to keep in mind, which is disturbing about this law, is that if you look at the history of federal labor law, going back to the 1930s, and the National Labor Relations Act, which governs unionization in all industries except agriculture, there's a principle there that underlies union elections. And the idea is that the workers should hear a vigorous debate on both sides of the question of unionization of why they should or why they shouldn't vote for the Union. And then do do when a democracy when we need to make decisions about our collective future, go to a ballot box and vote by secret ballot, where nobody knows what your vote was. And you have that freedom to say yes or no, based on your own choice. Not somebody coming up to you, under some circumstances, that you're not worrying, we can't identify and saying, hey, sign this thing. Like I said, I've seen deception, I've seen coercion, I've seen outright fraud, some number of them may be genuine, but there's just no way of knowing has no way of controlling it. And the workers are not going to hear both sides of the debate before they make that decision. They're going to hear only from the union, they're going to sign these documents. And in many cases, the decision will be made and the issue will be over before the grower or the employer even has a chance to present why they think the workers don't need a union. It's already illegal to threaten workers against unionization, it's illegal to coerce them in any way. But there is fundamentally in the core of labor relations law a right of free speech, where we have until recently viewed it as healthy for workers to hear a vigorous debate and a vigorous campaign on both sides from both the union and from the employer, and then make their decision at the ballot box. That is what's been taken away from workers, which is very, very disturbing to me. And when I represented the workers, at Gerawan Farms, the lady who was kind of the spokesperson for the worker effort made a really great statement actually, in a TV interview that always stuck with me and sticks with me to this day, the UFW charges dues that are 3% of the workers wages. And she looked at the camera TV interview and said, I think I can use that 3% For my children better than the UFW can.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:02 

Yeah, I can see that that's gonna be an interesting situation coming up here in the future. This is kind of a related question. Many employer employee conflicts, I think where the some of this connected to can be resolved around some kind of effective, transparent internal grievance process where you can handle things internally to address people's concerns or whatever the grievances or whatever, in your experience, what does an effective internal grievance process look like?

 

Anthony Raimondo  18:29 

Well, it's something that I think is very important, as you mentioned, for labor relations purposes. And now I'm just talking about the general relationship between an employer and its workforce, there are always going to be issues that arise. And for a healthy business, what you really want is workers to be able to come forward with those concerns, and communicate them where you can respond in a way where you can come to an agreement about what should be done. And it may it doesn't mean you just say yes to everything. But it means that the workers understand that their voice is heard. And if the answer is no, they understand why the answer is no. So what that really means is number one, you need personnel involved who are bilingual, we operate in what is a primarily Spanish speaking industry. So we need folks who who are bilingual who can educate with the workers. This typically is done through an HR department if you have an effective HR department, but they have to be visible to the people out in the field and known to the people so they need to get out of the office, go out and visit with the crews introduce themselves to the crews, to the workers themselves, not just to the foreman and make sure that people know who they are and know them by name, that they have contact information that is out there to the workers so the workers know how to reach them, and that the workers understand the process that operates outside of the normal chain of command and it doesn't have to go through their foreman or through their supervisor because if it goes to the foreman of the supervisor, what happens if the problem for the employee is the foreman or the supervisors?

 

Craig Macmillan  19:54 

Right, right.

 

Anthony Raimondo  19:57 

We have a process that is outside of that immediate chain command that if necessary, can go straight to the top of authority at the company to address problems and get problems solved. I've seen it be successful. I mean, I'll give you a great example is a longtime client of mine, who is a labor contractor has a very active HR department and they are extremely engaged. And one of the attorneys who works for me actually went with one of the HR representatives out to a location where the company was providing the staffing and providing the employees. And when they got out of the out of the car at the location, the employees were all waving to this HR person and greeting her by name, hi, hi, great to see you. Like they all knew her and they were comfortable. And there was this relationship and dialogue back and forth. So that workers would feel comfortable if there was an issue or there was a concern, you know, anything from Hey, our wages are too low, our equipments not safe, we don't have what we need, the forman it is abusing us, our time records are not correct. Anything that it might be, as an employer, you want those things to come to you. Because then you can solve  them. If they don't come to you, they're gonna go somewhere else where there may not be a solution, whether it's a union, a government agency and attorney, but situations where the problem will actually become exacerbated and may not even get solved. Whereas if you have an effective process to understand what's going on on the ground, you can confront those issues and solve those problems before they become bigger problems. When employees have that avenue to communicate and resolve workplace issues internally with the company. It goes a long way. You know, employees go to union because they feel like they don't have a voice in their workplace. And they feel like there are problems that simply cannot get resolved without bringing in that third party. When they feel like they can solve problems internally, they're going to solve that they're going to use that process and they're not going to reach out to that union. They're they're much more resistant to it, because they have to pay for the Union. Why? Why pay a third party, something that you can do for yourself if you feel like you can.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:05 

And possibly have something resolved quickly, effectively and amicably. And I think that's, I think that's absolutely right. I think that human components, huge really, really important. Sometimes we get into our own little boxes, and when the little boxes are not talking to each other when people can actually talk to each other.

 

Anthony Raimondo  22:21 

I think we underestimate the importance of the the relationship aspect of every part of business, including the employer employee relationship.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:30 

Yeah, exactly, exactly. We're getting close to run out of time. But there's one more thing I wanted to ask you, again, you have so much experience in this area. The farming operations vary tremendously in terms of their size, especially when maybe not especially but certainly in the vineyard industry. It seems like it's nearly impossible for a small grower to stay on top and stay compliant with constantly changing and expanding regulatory landscape. They have a lot to do, and they don't have a lot of staff to do it. Given the regulatory burden on a cultural operations. Do you have any advice for small growers and how they can successfully navigate the environment stay on top of these things?

 

Anthony Raimondo  23:03 

I think there's a number of things that people can do. For example, on our website, raimondomiller.com, you can sign up for email, where we put out a lot of information about new laws or new regulations as they come out. And that's completely free. We work I've worked for a long time with the dairy industry where there's a lot of small farms as well as in the wine industry, where we have a lot of smaller employers. And one of the things that we strive to do as a firm is to establish relationships with industry associations, I do a lot of speaking of for different industry associations. And if there's any folks from those kinds of associations listening right now I do those things for free. I've never charged anybody for those things. Were on any topics that anybody wants, we can give updates, we can give other information out one on one and I travel, travel just about anywhere to do that. In a couple of weeks, I will be heading down to Temecula to speak to some wine groups, wine growers down there, which I do, then big event down there called great days, which I do every year. It's a wonderful, wonderful event and a great way to get information out. There are times where we have made relationships with industry associations where they're smaller farmers, where the association will pay our law firm to essentially provide advice consulting input, discounted services to farming operations. You know, we've we've made arrangements with associations where we do things like employee handbooks and other risk management devices on a significantly discounted rate and provide free consultation to their members and those kinds of things can be worked out. I think one of the things that's different about our firm is that we really do strive to be able to work with folks within the industry to make resources and information and advice available to the smallest farmers.

 

Craig Macmillan  24:48 

That is wonderful. Yeah,

 

Anthony Raimondo  24:50 

There's the big guys but the big guys have resources to get what they need, you know, in terms of human resource consulting, in House lawyers, outside law firms. It's really I think the little guys we've got to watch out for in this industry. And most of my career, I've represented family farms and family businesses. And that's kind of the niche that we fit into. If folks are out there, and they're looking for these types of resources, reach out to me. And let's, let's get an introduction with your local association. And let's see if we can work something out where we can provide some time and some resources to making sure that even the smallest members of those associations have access to the information and the resources that they need.

 

Craig Macmillan  25:29 

So there is some support out there, small growers, not in isolation. It sounds like we've got places to go and people to talk to you. And I think it's really great going to the associations, because people will go to those meetings, they're very interested in those topics might draw them to those meetings. So I really appreciate the work that you folks are doing on that kind of wrapping up here. What is what is one thing that you would tell grape growers, just in general, regarding any of these types of issues, HR issues, other labor related things?

 

Anthony Raimondo  25:57 

I think that being proactive is extremely important and understanding what risk management tools are out there for you and what you can do to protect yourself and what is a very difficult and complicated legal and regulatory environment. You know, we started off talking about technology and things like timekeeping, I think stuff like that is really valuable. employee handbooks are really, really important contracts between growers and vineyard managers and labor contractors in writing. You know, a lot of agriculture historically has been done on a handshake basis. And I kind of wish we still lived in that world, but we don't live in that world anymore, need to have written agreements, arbitration agreements for employees are a very powerful risk management tool that we'd love to see folks expand the use of, and it's a very, very inexpensive way to reduce risk. Insurance strategies are really important. There's a lot of great information out there through insurance brokers, for example, most of the insurance brokers that I know in agriculture provide a ton of free help with Cal OSHA compliance. In fact, when when farmers, mostly small farmers call me and they want help with Cal OSHA compliance. Usually, the first place I send them is their insurance broker, because a lot of those guys will do that stuff for free. So understanding what you what you get for free and what it makes sense to pay for it, how much it makes sense to pay for it is a valuable tool. But employee handbooks are important written policies are important training is important. And figuring out how to get those things in a way that is the most cost effective, especially for a small farmer is is really important. And it means not being afraid to reach out and ask questions. And I always take calls from farmers, my cell phone rings, anytime a day. And I'll try to help folks find those kinds of resources. And, you know, I don't want folks to be afraid to call me I'm not going to charge you for a phone call. If you're calling me asking me, How can I get access to some of these resources, I'll try to point you in the right direction, figure out where you can find resources at a cost and with a strategy that works for you. But what I don't want you to do is stick your head in the sand and just be reactive instead of proactive we can in this environment. If we work together. And we reach out, ask for help ask questions. Be proactive.

 

Craig Macmillan  28:12 

That is great advice. And I think we would all be wise to think about that. It's hard to be proactive sometimes. But the benefits are many, many, many, many, many times greater than the downsides that you might think you're going to run into where can people find out more about you? You've already mentioned, your willingness to talk to people.

 

Anthony Raimondo  28:32 

We have a website at WWW. Raimondomiller.com. I'm happy to give out my cell phone number. It's not secret. I'll put it out right here on the air. It's Area code 559-801-2226. Anybody's welcome to give me a call anytime and say, Hey, I heard you on the podcast. I got a couple of questions for you. I'm happy to take those calls. If for some reason you can't reach me, leave me a voicemail. It's rare that I go more than a couple hours without responding to somebody's phone call. I've represented dairy and livestock guys for years. So you know my phone doesn't turn off until they turn the cows off, which is never so never. I'm always happy to talk to farmers and I'm always happy to see what I can do to help. So feel free to give me a call. Feel free to the website.

 

Craig Macmillan  29:14 

We appreciate it very much. So I guess today has been Anthony Raimondo is an attorney and founder of Raimondo Miller law firm in Fresno, California. Anthony Hey, thanks for being here. This is a really great conversation. I'm glad you take the time.

 

Anthony Raimondo  29:28 

Wonderful. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

 

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By taking your Sustainable QR Tour, your visitors will:

1. Learn about your brand’s values.
2. See sustainability in action.
3. Enjoy an activity as they taste your sustainable wines.

In this Marketing Tip, we’ll walk you through all of the steps to create your Sustainable QR Tour.

Step 1: Identify Your Sustainable Attractions

1. Get your team together and talk about examples of sustainability at your property.
   • SIP Tip: use the Sustainable Stories worksheet to get the ball rolling!
2. Pick 5 to 10 things that can be seen and/or approached by a visitor at your property. These will be the attractions for your QR tour.
3. Take notes about the sustainable aspects of each attraction, and why it is important to your brand. These will be used to create the content describing each attraction.

Ideas to Get You Started

Vineyard Attractions

• Vines (Value #2: Water Management)
• Soil and plant-based moisture monitoring devices ensure vines are irrigated when needed.
• Drip-irrigation systems use 20-50% less water per-acre than sprinkler systems.
• Owl box (Value #3: Safe Pest Management)
• Owls are natural predators for vertebrate pests like squirrels and gophers.
• Cover crop (Value #5: Habitat)
• Contribute to the vineyard ecosystem’s biodiversity.
• Provide homes for beneficial insects.
• Prevent soil erosion.

Winery/Tasting Room Attractions

• Solar panels/EV charging stations (Value #4: Energy Efficiency)
• Capturing the sun’s energy means less draw from the grid.
• Pamphlets for charitable foundations, organizations, etc (Value #1: Social Responsibility)
• Socially responsible businesses give back to their communities.
• Your brand’s Newsletter (Value #6: Business)
• Sustainable businesses celebrate their successes and plan for the future.
• 7 Values of SIP Certified table sign (Value #7: Always Evolving)
• SIP Certified members stay up to date with the latest sustainable winegrowing practices

Step 2: Explain Each Sustainable Attraction

Create Your Content

Each one of your sustainable tour attractions will have its own QR code. When scanned, the code should open up either a video or a written description.

• Use video: Grab your phone and in two minutes or less, introduce the topic, explain its sustainable aspects, and tell the viewer why it is important to your brand. Post your videos to YouTube, or give each one a dedicated blog post on your website.
• Write it out: Create a blog post on your website for each of your sustainable attractions and put the information in writing.

It is important that the information for each sustainable attraction is on its own page! That way, when the QR code is scanned, only the information for the appropriate attraction opens.

Generate Your QR Codes

Visit the published page for each sustainable attraction’s content, and follow these steps to generate your QR code:

• Tap your mouse’s right clicker anywhere on the web page.
• Click “Create QR code for this page.”
• WARNING: Don’t modify the link that appears under the QR code!
• Click the button to Download your QR code.
• Rename your QR code so it’s easily identifiable.
• SIP Tip: use a name that includes the tour stop (e.g.: cover crop video)
• Save your QR code on your computer.

Step 3: Bring Your Tour to Life

Now it’s time to post your QR codes at your stops, and make a map so visitors know where to find them.

Print & Post Your QR Codes

You will need to print your QR codes and give them a clear, protective covering to shield them from the elements. You can use a laminator, packing tape, or clear binder inserts. Or have them printed on a material that can withstand the elements.

Attach them to a sturdy surface at or in view of your Sustainable QR Tour attraction.

Make a Map

Your visitors will want to know where to go when they embark on your Sustainable QR Tour!

Your map can be hand drawn, or you can use an application like Canva, or Adobe Illustrator to make your map.

On the back of the map, list out your stops in the order they appear along the path, and give a quick hint for finding the QR code.

SIP Tip: Make it a Game!

Create a quiz sheet for your guests, and have them complete it once they visit all of the stops. Or, encourage them to post a picture or video from their tour experience on their social media and tag you.

Put your guest’s names into a pot for a monthly drawing, and get creative with your prizes! A complimentary tasting for two, a piece of SWAG from your shop, or a private tour with your General Manager, Winemaker, or Vineyard Manager are just a few ideas.

Coming Up...

Our next Marketing Tip will feature the final story in this year’s round of Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members. Be sure you don’t miss the inspiring story of how Talley Vineyards supports all of their employees in their professional development.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, download the worksheet, watch the videos, and you are ready to tell your Sustainable Story!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Business: Niner Wine Estates
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards
• SIP Smart Training online course
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Vineyard farmers manage numerous pests but the invasive species can be some of the most troublesome. Kyle McAbee, President of McAbee Ag Consulting, PCA and CCA sustainability specialist shares what growers need to know to manage pests currently in their area, like Vine Mealybug, and prepare for ones that could come in the future, like Spotted Lantern Fly. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is critical. Sustainable and conventional growers should rotate chemistries, scout to track location, time of year, and mating events, look at how other areas manage the pest, control host species, and be ready to do something about the issue. Most importantly, growers should talk with their Ag Commissioner, Farm Advisor, and each other.

References:

• 26: Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses
• 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses
• 96: Spotted Lanternfly - Threat to California
• Kyle McAbee email
• McAbee Ag Consulting FaceBook page
• Penn State Extension Spotted Lanternfly
• StopSLF.org
• UC IPM: Vine Mealybug

Vineyard Team Programs:

• April 12, 2023 Neighborhood Vine Mealy Bug Management Meeting - REGISTER
• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting. He is a licensed pest control advisor, and certified crop advisor with a certification in sustainability specialization. And we're going to talk about pests. Thanks for being thanks for being on podcast Kyle.

 

Kyle McAbee  0:18 

Yeah, good to be with you Craig.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:20 

So you and I were just chatting. And I also been thinking about this a lot recently. And one of the big challenges for sustainability in agriculture in general was pest management, obviously. And I've been looking back into the past and kind of watching things. And I've been wondering if you see something similar to this, have you seen changes in pest pressure, different kinds of pressure, particular pest in different regions? In the last seven or eight years?

 

Kyle McAbee  0:46 

Yes, absolutely. Definitely seen, you know, fluctuations in pest pressure, with certain pests, likely an average overtime average, slow increase, but that said, you know, it's it's year to year, some years, you know, we're looking for certain pests in places that we've seen them for years in and years out and can't find them. I'll give you an example. Last year, the mite population, in particular Paso Robles, but I think in a wider area, you know, I speak with a lot of different PCAs in the local industry, and we're all scratching our heads wondering, you know, hey, we've had Pacific Mite these blocks for the last six, seven years in, we can't find one this year. It just depends on the season and what pest we're talking about, of course, too.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:29 

And that's a really interesting one to me, because that suggests that biological control is working, right? Because you're not treating for mites unless you're seeing mites. So it's not a question of a prophylactic set of sprays, necessarily, they've knocked on the population, one would think, or maybe it's some kind of changing climate reason.

 

Kyle McAbee  1:48 

When we're looking at any of these populations, whether it be pest or whether it be a beneficial insect. It is absolutely environmentally based, whether, you know, we had a warm winter, and it didn't knock back the overwintering populations as normal, or we had an extremely cold winter, which, you know, could further give us some over over winter kill on the overwintering populations, depending on what pest we're talking about, obviously, but yeah, environmental chemicals that are being used, and well, not even chemicals. You know, of course, cultural practices, you know, what folks are doing for dust control for mites? For example, you know, there's just so many factors. But yes, I do think environment and warm winters, and obviously, warm spring and summer have played a big part in increased pest pressure, and particularly mealybug.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:34 

Yeah, so with mites, we just talked about a decline. And when we're talking about vine mealybug, I've been hearing the same thing. And it seemed like, well, back in the 90s, when it showed up, it was just a disaster. I mean, it was really, really bad, you know, and it's never gonna go away. But then things seem like they kind of settled down. I mean, he still had to deal with it. But it wasn't the kind of incredible devastation that we saw in the late 90s. Now you're seeing these things start to these populations and the damage start to come back up, right?

 

Kyle McAbee  3:02 

Yes, I do believe that, you know, as an industry, overall, we've definitely seen an increase in the last, I guess, eight harvests or so that have been in Paso Robles. And not just Paos Robles, you know, kind of up and down the central coast. And yeah, yeah, absolutely seen seen situations where, you know, we've been in control of vine mealybug in certain areas, you know, our hotspots, if you will, is that all of a sudden, we've kind of lost control lost a grip a little bit, or, you know, they're starting to win a little bit more than they were before. Additionally, and more importantly, to me, is we've got blocks and vineyards, that historically, you know, we've been rigorously scouting them season in and season out. And all of a sudden, we're finding mealy bugs, and I'm, and, you know, we'll, you know, blocks that we've trapped, for years just preempt, you know, preventatively to monitor the population that way as well. All of a sudden, we start getting a, you know, a couple counts here, and a couple of counts there. And so we start paying closer attention. And, you know, couple year two, year three after that, then we, you know, all of a sudden, hey, we found some vines with mealybug, on Vine mealybug. And knowing that, you know, had not had that problem in those blocks previously. So new populations moving into new blocks.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:17 

From what I understand we're finding vi mealybug in areas where we haven't had it before. We're seeing increases in the counts, populations are there. Do you have some ideas about why that might be?

 

Kyle McAbee  4:29 

Two different things going on here? We're gonna start with areas blocks of vineyards that we know we've had hotspots of vine mealybug we've been watching them and fighting them for years, maybe a decade for some folks maybe longer for others in those areas. You know, we've had successful years weather that we've had help from Mother Nature and those years in addition to our, you know, IPM programs, whatever it may be, but I do know that over time in the last, you know, five years call it I've definitely had some areas where I've seen Those spots increase, and I've started to scratch my head. And despite the fact that I rotate chemicals, and, you know, IRAC groups and all that, and our cultural practices, I do see, you know, some loss of control in those areas and increase in population and maybe, you know, even growth, you know, outward into the vineyard, you know, I think that, in particular has a lot to do part just in part, but a lot of it is that has got to do with maybe some chemical resistance, some some product resistance, you know, in particular, the neonic, the IRAC 4A's have been so widely used year in and year out, over and over, I've been very suspicious of resistance to those, I don't lean just on those, but I've definitely seen areas where we get no control from those products. And so I've done some work with the USDA to look into that, in particularly one vineyard in Monterey County, we, you know, we took samples of the population, and that was an inconclusive test, you know, there's many reasons as to why that didn't, didn't really work out, a lot of it was the protocol in the lab and how they were doing it, but that doesn't change my mind. And the idea that we do have some resistance to, to those products, not just to pick on those, but I think that's where first place to start, if we're going to talk about resistance with my mealybug I think that's a big part of the problem. The other part of that the meaning, you know, hotspots that are have spread, or you know, are getting worse, I think that those vines are getting older, and the, you know, the bark is fluffing, and there's just more protection for them underneath the bark, as opposed to young, young vineyard, you know, so those hotspots, you know, obviously, as you go, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years later, well, those vines are a whole different environment for vine mealybug. And I think that plays a big part into it as well, you get some old grenache or syrah or whatever it may be some of these varietals that that do tend to really multilayers of slough bark, it's just impossible to get any of these chemistries, whether it be organic, or conventional, whatever it may be any of these products in there, and there's just too many places for him to hide, there's got to be some sort of resistance issues, at least that's my opinion, I think others agree. But there's also you know, environmental factors, not just the weather, but you know, in the more of a micro environment for these insects. So you know, these these areas that we've had these populations that we've monitored, that we've been fighting for years, and been successful all the sudden, you know, you're seeing lack of control, and you're having a hard time with even new products, and new chemistries, and additional rotation and stuff. And I think that's got a lot to do with, you know, those vines have changed in the you know, those five or 10 years, you know, they've gotten older and a big part of, as we all know, are most you know, most folks know, and older vines got, you know, much more complex bark system on the trunks and cordons, multi layers, much more area for these these insects to hide under the bark and where we can't make contact with them. And I think that's a big part of it that I know a lot of folks have talked about, and we're all aware of and there's just, you know, what do you do? Right, but I think that's a big part of why these hotspots have have gotten worse, personally, it's coverage at that point, right? It's it's simply coverage.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:20 

In the world of fungicides we faced this for a long time. And the question then is they go Okay, now what do I do? Where do I go from here? I've become dependent on certain materials? Now I'm trying different things. I'm still like in control software chemistries, we're talking about organophosphates, or anything. What's your strategy? What do you think? And where are you going to go in the future with this?

 

Kyle McAbee  8:39 

I'm not the only one doing this. But we in our problem areas, we rotate our chemistries a lot, but that's not all we do. A big part of this is scouting, obviously, you know, we we have to stay on top of it and monitoring any spread or new hotspots. So that's a big one. Another huge part. I mean, okay, so you've identified where they're at, well, what do you do? Well, trapping is a huge part of this cultural practice, if you will, in monitoring not just where they're at, and what they're doing, but mating events and trying to attack these things from the inside out, in addition to chemical programs that are, you know, we all use a lot of the same products, which is kind of why I touched on potential for resistance, but trapping and reacting accordingly. So looking at those meaning events, if you're going to trap, you better be willing to do something about it. Okay, we've got a count of 50 in this trap. Well, the clock is ticking. You know, that mating event is happening. Now. You don't have seven days, you don't have 14 days, you need to be able to get out there now. And if you're using floatable meeting disruptors, you've got to be willing to go out there and spray that at least that area, you don't have to spray the whole vineyard but you know, depending on the size of the property, reacting to it accordingly. The other option, you know, some of these mating disruption companies, they have the hangers and those last long So you can, you know, you've got a hotspot in an area. And as soon as you get that first flight, you know, hang those things out there in the spring, you'll likely, you know, disrupt a couple mating events at that point, you know, I believe they call for a lot of those that last, you know, 90 days or so depending on the weather. I know for a fact they're working on ones that their prototypes at this point, but they are supposed to last quite a bit longer than that. So I mean, we're talking a big chunk of our season at that point, and it goes to the organic versus conventional, right. So the flowable is not organic, certified, the cards are, well, just because you're conventional, doesn't mean you don't use the cards, I think the cards are a big part of that, you know, that meeting disruption process. So if you're conventional, I think, you know, don't look away from the cards just because they're organic. I mean, there's a lot of benefits to those things.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:47 

Absolutely. And I think I've seen that in powdery mildew management to where folks that are not certified organic are putting a lot of Omri approved products in their in their rotation, which is interesting, because that was so that was certainly not the case back in the day. Okay. So this is a great example where we had an invasive pest, we've been trying to figure out what to do now we're trying new things, and it's gonna be constant, right. But what about new invasive pests? There's a couple of things that are out there that I think it's only a matter of time before they show up here in California, or Washington or Oregon or the other direction in your mind, because you're scouting really carefully. You're looking for stuff, all kinds of things. So you obviously you're scouting for pests that you know, but I'm guessing that you're scouting for insects, you don't know, what do you do? What would you recommend as a game plan? If I find something that's new, I don't want to get a toehold.

 

Kyle McAbee  11:39 

Oh, yeah. Well, number one, if it's a new sighting of an invasive species, notifying the Ag Commissioner letting the you know making sure that USDA gets involved and making them aware of it, because a big part of it is it's a big picture. Program. So that's, that's number one. If you're one of the first people to find it, or if it's new to your area, if it's in your area, and it's new to your property or your your vineyard or whatever it may be looking at the States or the country, or countries that that that pest has come from and doing research and looking at what they've done looking at what they're doing there. Is there anything that they've done that is successful to mitigate that pest or deal with it? I think the spotted lantern fly is a good example. I don't think anybody knows exactly what to do with that. With that pest yet. I've obviously I don't have any direct connection with spotted lantern fly being you know, a PCA in California, however, I have done research on it, knowing that it unfortunately isn't inevitably likely to come to California, it's an invasive species from China, it was likely brought in over, you know, cargo ships and things like that. They're, they're very good movers, they lay their egg masses on semi trucks and, you know, see trains and just vehicles and they they can travel across the country that way. That's why I feel inevitably will likely be seeing some of this, you know, in the news or something. In the United States My understanding is it's you know, mostly focused on the East Coast. That's where it came in. I think Pennsylvania might have been first one I know New Jersey and Virginia, I think West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, I think maybe even a couple others have had this issue. And it's a very, it's a very big problem. Not just for the vineyard, it is a problem for the vineyards. But it's a nuisance as well just you know, across communities. And if you have a tasting room next year, your vineyard they pretty good fliers, they're large insect, they're not afraid of humans so they can kind of swarm and just become an issue. But regarding vineyard pest control, they're very, very good feeders. They're aggressive feeders and they will suck a vine dry in in one one to two years and just take all the life out of the vines and that's that's the concern there. The other concern obviously with as goes most invasive species, we don't really have IPM program for them we don't we don't really know what to do we don't have products registered for them. We don't have spotted lantern fly for example written on really any labels that we can use and also bio control, you know, we that's part of an invasive species as well, but it likely didn't bring their you know, their predators with them, you know, their enemies. So I know they're doing work with the native bio control insects in that are in China. Currently, gypsy moth, I believe is one of them. And I believe they're doing some work with some different fungi and things like that. Yeah, I think one big thing to note that I've read is Tree of Heaven is is you know, obviously an invasive species as well from China. That's its host plant in China. So I know we've got it here. I've got areas I've been fighting, you know, Tree of Heaven for a while. So one of the biggest things other than looking for this insect is once it comes here, even now making sure you're controlling that Tree of Heaven, get rid of that stuff and not an easy one to take care of. But that's that's a big part of it, too.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:52 

I live in the city of Paso Robles, and there's a little patch of it like right on the city limit on buying Street. It's spreading come into town. Like it's grown. It's grown up through sidewalks and stuff. And you know, as the biology pages look at, and you're like, oh my god, like, this is just a monster. I'm like, what are you gonna? Do? You know? But yeah, you're absolutely right as if you can identify those plants ahead of time and work on those. That's a great, great idea. Do you have any kind of plan? Not maybe not even for just spotted lantern fly, but let's say we get a report of something.

 

Kyle McAbee  15:28 

Right? And that's how it's gonna happen. I mean, somebody's gonna find it somewhere. And then we're all gonna go, oh, man, what do we do? This is already part of my work anyway, is getting rid of the Tree of Heaven, trying to minimize any reason for that particular pest or other pests? You know, you got you just got to look at their hosts, I mean, their host plants, their host environment, where did they, you know, not just spotted lantern fly, but you know, other invasive species that we're looking at that are making their way into this country? And in figuring out what is their biology? What is their host environment or or plant or whatever it may be? If it it has shown up in other areas, you know, where did it come in, look at what the folks in, you know, country or other area that this invasive pest has come from? What do they do? What what products are they using? And what have they done to control it? Right? Maybe they haven't maybe it's such an aggressive problem. They haven't done it. I think number one, obviously is looking for it. For example, we get a report of spotted lantern fly, like you said in in Napa, or somewhere in California, then okay, well, it's probably here somewhere, just training your folks training your employees, you know, making sure your PCA and his his or her scouts are looking for these pests is important. And it found reporting it you know, not just to not just to the customer, you know, not just to the grower, it needs to be known on a state level or county level, you know, contacting the Ag Commissioner and asking them where, you know, what do we do with this information? Somebody needs to know about it, and making sure the USDA is aware of it. And in that way we they can kind of start tracking, you know, whatever insect it may be. But yeah, on a on a more micro level on on your own operation, looking at what products may be available to try to find it once you have it, looking at what the what they're doing and other maybe other states that have been fighting it for a while, what have they been successful with? And contacting, you know, farm advisors and talking to them about it, you know, Hey, have you guys figured out in the bio control? That's always a tough one. It's not just as simple as Okay, well, lantern fly in China, their main, you know, arch nemesis is the Gypsy Moth, well, let's just bring the Gypsy Moth over well, it's not that simple. Because there's, there's a lot of years of studies that have to go into that to make sure you're not gonna cause that insects. But looking at that, I mean, maybe that's already been done on whatever invasive species may come in, maybe that's already been figured out, and we have access to it. Who knows, you know,

 

Craig Macmillan  17:53 

Or maybe we have an organism already here, that's similar enough that it can do something I think in terms of in terms of like predators, definitely, I think that's an option. And maybe we can do some augmentative biological control or something like that. It does sound like one of our best strategies might be to take cultural approaches initially, and just make it an unfriendly place. And then, and then kind of go from there. And like you said, see what other people have done and kind of go from there. I think that's the tricky thing, mealybug, all kinds of things, bugs and virus. We've learned a lot internationally in the last 10 years, which has been great that we've got folks working on this syndrome, variety of places we can learn from what they do, we're kind of running out of time, I want to ask you, though, in terms of sustainable pest control, and this can be fungi, this can be insect can be nematodes, it could be anything, what one piece of advice, or what one take home idea would you give to a grower if they say hey, I want to manage my vineyard in a sustainable fashion? How do I control my pests?

 

Kyle McAbee  18:55 

Sustainability is, you know, very well correlated with IPM touched on cultural practices and things outside of, of chemical control, trapping, you know, looking looking at mating events, again, like you mentioned, making the environment unfriendly for whatever pest it may be, you know, scouting, making sure that you're aware of what is actually happening out there, what pests are out there, where they're at, in making sure something doesn't get out of control before you know it's there. Because it's really hard. Even on a you know, more aggressive, more conventional program, it's hard to reach back and knock down a population, it's much easier to to get them early on. Right? It just depends on what we're talking about when I say cultural control, looking at you know, hey, are there weeds that are causing the problem on the ground? Is it are you creating a secondary host or environment for X pests, right, keeping those things down and, you know, making sure you're not spreading them mechanically looking at you know, on a sustainable program, rotating different groups if you're on a conventional sustainable program if you're you know, if you're going for the organic products only or your organic certified then looking at those different bio insecticides or organic insecticides that are out there and what your options are, and making sure you're talking to people talking to people that have been doing it, talk to various people get multiple opinions. And one thing I've always heard about PCAs is talked to three, and you'll get three different opinions, which is good, though, because then you can kind of dig through it and see what the best options are, maybe use all three different ideas in in a rotational factor, you know, I've always been an advocate of, you know, communication with with each other. And we're all on this together. And, you know, making sure that we're all learning from one another and figuring out what worked for others and what didn't work for him, and so on and so forth.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:43 

Yeah, exactly. And one thing I want to underline with what you just said is, you know, Scout Scout Scout monitor, monitor, monitor, record, record record, and then go back and look at those and look for those trends. And, and then the second thing being cultural, I think that's a really important idea is that if we can modify the environment, we can do a lot of good. And I think mites is a classic example mites and dust, so where can people find out more about you?

 

Kyle McAbee  21:06 

Honestly, the best way to get a hold of me is either email or phone. I, I'm not very present on social media, with my business. I do have a Facebook, it's, you know, McAbee Ag Consulting. But that said, I think the best way to get a hold of me would be either to call me text me or email me, and I can give you that information.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:25 

And we can put that information in the show notes, folks will be able to find you. This has been great. Thanks so much. I guess today it was Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting, and He is a licensed pest control advisor and certified crop advisor with the sustainability specialization. Thanks so much, Kyle. This has really been a joy. I'm really, really glad you were here.

 

Kyle McAbee  21:45 

Yeah, thank you, Craig. Appreciate it.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

If you like this podcast, then you will not want to miss the premiere sustainable winegrowing event of the year – the Sustainable Ag Expo. Cliff Ohmart, Principal at Ohmart Consulting Services has helped Vineyard Team bring together the nation’s top researchers to present at the Expo for a number of years. In today's podcast, you will get a preview of the topics and speakers for this year’s event.

Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts, earn over 20 hours of continuing education (including 18 hours of DPR), and explore sustainable ag vendors November 14-15, 2023, at the Madonna Inn Expo Center in San Luis Obispo California.

By popular request, this year we have doubled the number of online courses so attendees can learn on-demand between October 16 and November 30.

Here are some of the sessions Cliff mentions. Make sure to check out the sustainableagexpo.org for the full program:

In-Person

• Integrating Multiple Layers of Spatial Vineyard Information into Variable-rate Management Maps
  • Terry Bates, Cornell University
• Vineyard Spraying Technologies to Improve Application Efficiency for Every Grower
  • Brent Warneke, Oregon State University
• Trunk Renewal for Management of Trunk Diseases
  • Kendra Baumgartner, USDA-Agricultural Research Service
• Soil Health and Regenerative Management to Support the Goals of Winegrape Producers
  • Cristina Lazcano, UC Davis; Noelymar Gonzales Maldonado, UC Davis; Charlotte Decock, Cal Poly
• The Importance of Areawide Controls for Mealybugs and Leafroll – Is This Cost Effective?
  • Kent Daane, UC Berkeley

Online

• Update on Vineyard Autonomous Equipment 
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Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

And with me today is Cliff Ohmart. He is a consultant with Omart Consulting in a whole variety of areas. One of the things that he's doing right now is he's helping to organize or he's organizing the program for the 2023 Sustainable Ag Expo in San Luis Obispo coming up. He's going to tell us a little bit about some of the folks and some of the topics that will be there and some things that might be of interest to you. So welcome, Cliff.

 

Cliff Ohmart  0:22 

Thank you very much, Creg. It's nice to be here with you. And I think this is a great opportunity to have this podcast before the expo so people can get an even better feel than just the website of what's coming.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:34 

Absolutely. For those who don't know, what is the Sustainable Ag Expo?

 

Cliff Ohmart  0:38 

it is a combined presentation slash trade show that the Vineyard Team has been putting on, I think, for at least 15 years now.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:47 

 It's been a while.

 

Cliff Ohmart  0:48 

I's developed into quite the history, the roughly the format is there's a session in the morning from eight to 10, a half hour break for people to go out to the trade show 10:30 to noon, more presentations. Then there's lunch for people go to the trade show, then one to three, another half hour break, and then 3:30 to five. And there's only one session at the time, so people don't have to worry about missing something. Also, they're free to circulate through the trade show during the presentations if they so choose. This year, the Vineyard Team decided to change the format, which I takes I'm excited to see how this will go. So this year, it will be Tuesday, Wednesday full days as I just described that schedule. But then Monday evening, it'll be a kickoff what we're going to be doing for the feature presenter, which is Dr. Terry Bates from Cornell, he and I will be on stage for a period of time, I think half hour to an hour where we'll be in sort of an interview back and forth situation give a chance to see him ask questions to get ready for the next day. And so I'm excited about that. And then the first session which will be Tuesday morning from eight to 10. First Terry Bates will be doing a formal presentation of his work followed by a panel of Terry Bates, Dr. Andrew McElrone, and Dr. Mason Earles from Mason is from UC Davis. Andrew is works at ARS Agricultural Research Service Station, and Davis and their area of expertise is all around detailed data analysis and Andrew especially on water relations, particularly in vineyards, Mason Earles more along remote sensing, things like that. And the focus of Terry's talk, as well as the night before is on precision viticulture. He, along with a big team of people developed something called the efficient vineyard. And it's very impressive, in part because the software is available for anybody for free. And it's anywhere from it can capture as the website is a really nice website for you can use your phone to capture gopher holes, the location of gopher holes, broken post right up to very advanced remote sensing that you can import into the software. So it's all in one spot. I'm excited about this, because I think you've probably seen the same thing. There's so much technology out there. And it's very exciting. But I think especially for the small to mid size grower, there's a concern about do I have the time to do this? Do I have the ability to do this? What's this all about? Where's the bigger grower can hire somebody to check it out? And I think the session Monday night and Tuesday morning is going to be focused on what's the reality here? What can growers do with it. And then from the researchers perspective, which is Andrew McElrone, and Mason Earles, they want to see people applying their work. And so what is that's really what I'm hoping to get out of that session.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:49 

Yeah, I have interviewed Terry Bates. And I've also communicated with him off and on over the years. And his areas of specialization is proximity sensing. So some of the high tech stuff they do has to do with like yield monitors and harvesters and different types of EC sleds and stuff like that. But he also is very much about making a map. And you can do it. One of his messages to me almost every time I talk to him is like people can do this, you can do it. You don't need to go too crazy, the most important thing is do it. And so I'm really excited to see him there and talk about the more advanced technological stuff. But also I imagine he'll be encouraging people to follow this concept. I think it's really, really fascinating and the things that they find out it's fascinating, too.

 

Cliff Ohmart  4:33 

I agree.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:34 

There's a lot of stuff also that's out there that's available but you don't have to invent you don't have to invest in there's information that's out there.

 

Cliff Ohmart  4:40 

Yeah, that's what I think, especially for us on the West Coast. You know, Cornell is a powerhouse, as you know, and I think West Coast people, some people probably know that others don't. And there's more and more things to tap into, on both coasts, as well as the Middle. One fun thing too for me Is the moderator for the after Terry's talk for the session with Terry, Mason, and Andrew is going to be moderated by Donnell Brown, who is executive director of the National grape Research Alliance. And one of the things to think about is I don't have to moderate she's going to do it. Then the other thing is, the National Grape Research Alliance has been instrumental in bringing researchers together from around the US in viticulture and enology and creating a goal oriented team to go pursue money to do various things like develop the efficient vineyard project. So she's going to be the moderator. So she knows these people well, so that'll be fun. My only regret is I know, there won't be enough time to really get into what we do as much. But there'll be afterwards for people to talk to the speakers on the side.

 

Craig Macmillan  5:56 

And that is one of the really great things about the expo is the speakers. Well, I guess full disclosure. Years ago, I worked for a Vinyard Team. And the position was technical program manager and and I was responsible for putting together programming for the expo and whatnot. Every buddy that I ever recruited, was super happy to stick around and talk to growers. That was like the high point for them. And this is an opportunity where you get to do that. And they take questions during the session. But sometimes people there's not time or they didn't want to ask and then they have an opportunity to actually interact with the with the scientists themselves. And that's just a fantastic opportunity. Because a lot of conferences and meetings, you can go and you don't really have the opportunity to talk to the the experts afterwards. And it's much more informal. It's very much also grower to grower, I think one of the things that's great about the the expo is there's a lot of conversation after the sessions between people along the lines of Yeah, we tried this, or we're thinking about trying this, or what do you think about it, you know, and that's just super invaluable. I think.

 

Cliff Ohmart  6:59 

I don't want to forget, I don't think we will. But another change in format is this year, instead of the third day of presentations, we're going to be recording 10 or so virtual recordings that will be available from October 16 to November 30, to the attendees of the Expo, and we'll touch on a couple of those. I'm sure the Vineyard Team website will have a nice list of presenters of the imprison Expo in virtual as well so people could see. But I think we're going to touch on a couple of those you and I in this podcast. But I wanted to bring that out as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:34 

Let's go right into that. First of all, because that is a change for Expo. But I think it's also a change kind of in our modern world. So this is the idea of making content available to those who have bought tickets essentially. Right. So it's another day of the expo, but they can view it at any time during that window.

 

Cliff Ohmart  7:51 

Yes.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:52 

So that gives them some schedule flexibility, which is pretty cool. Who are some of the folks that are going to be in these virtual virtual sessions?

 

Cliff Ohmart  8:00 

There's a really interesting, I think half hour to 45 minute talk by a fellow named Michael Miller, who is the California Association of Winegrape Growers, Director of Government Relations, and he is doing a presentation on the laws and regulations related to using robotics, particularly driverless tractors in the vineyard, which probably does not surprise you. The technology is ahead of the laws and regulations. So there are driverless tractors now a little available, and yet the laws and regulations around you know, through OSHA, are you have to have a driver on the tractor at all times. Very interested to hear that presentation about what's coming, who's doing the work to try to change those laws. What might the changes look like.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:45 

I'm totally fascinated by this idea. And yeah, absolutely, technology will run ahead of regulation, and then regulation kind of get caught up. And that's where we're at. Right now. We're in the middle of that process. And we went through with drones to kind of work our way through it. I can't wait to see that one. And it's gonna be fascinating. Who else?

 

Cliff Ohmart  9:05 

Another advantage of doing these virtual recordings is we can get people from overseas. So those that have attended the expo before, especially the virtual ones during the pandemic, there's this interesting fellow Dr Zi Hao Wang at the University of Sydney and he has been working on using drones in vineyards for bird control. So he's two other and two years in the past on this and it's a continuation of the work he's doing. It's still pretty much theoretical at the moment in that it's not being used commercially out in the vineyard. However, he is an engineer by trade and education. And you can see when you see some printed presentation, he brings that to the end. One of them very interesting things is his his focus is on tethered drones. Not free flying drones. For two reasons. One is they need to be on call all the time during the day daylight hours. So there's a problem with battery life. And with tethered drones, you don't have to have that. The other is that even though drones, the trades make it sound like they're very easy to fly, they get away. And another reason that tethered drones offer the advantage. So it's fascinating. He's got simulations that he shows in his presentation about how the Tethered drones will work. One of the things that he he just reviews what he's done before, and there is a past year's presentation on this, where he shows proof of concept that you can train the birds to be afraid of drones, if just the drone by suffer bird is not going to be afraid of it. But he literally took dead crows. And because crows do exist native crows in Australia and our problems, he hung them from drones to show that you can definitely condition them very quickly. And then he's got great videos of birds flying away during this.

 

Craig Macmillan  11:04 

That is really a trip.

 

Cliff Ohmart  11:05 

And then another interesting one is going to be on carbon planning for for your farm or your vineyard. There is a company that develops sensors and things like that, but also ecologically based things called Agrology. They do some very detailed work. And so the CEO of Agrology, Adam Koeppel is going to give a presentation, carbon planning, I mean specifically about carbon planning, and measuring soil carbon in real time, which is necessary and the benefits of carbon planning. I thought that that's kind of a unique thing as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  11:40 

What is carbon planning?

 

Cliff Ohmart  11:42 

This would be you know, you've already heard people marketing, I've got a carbon neutral vineyard, it's how do you measure that? You know, how do you sequester carbon? Can you sequester carbon? What difference does it make, but it would be along the lines of and clearly energy consumption comes in? How do you develop a carbon plan for your farm, so that what's happening in the soil, but also energy use and all of that.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:06 

Speaking of so carbon, there is going to be a session I think on day two, around climate smart AG, regenerative ag and soil health.

 

Cliff Ohmart  12:15 

Yes, and I am so excited about this session. When I reached out early on, I definitely wanted to session on soils, because there's so much going on around soil, micro biomes carbon sequestration, regenerative farming, and knowing that there's a lot of great concepts out there. But how much do we really know about all these things? Well, actually, the title of the session is, for the whole two hours, soil health and regenerative management to support the goals of Winegrape producers, Charlotte Decock, from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. So she'll be local in terms of the in person, Expo, she's going to be tackling this topic of regenerative agriculture. What is it? And what can be your production goals around it? So she herself is leading a comprehensive effort on looking at the practices which, you know, regenerative AG is nothing new, to be honest. And I think a lot of us realize that but so she's gonna be looking at things that are going to be sound very familiar cover cropping, compost, addition, sheep grazing, and no till, and what are they doing to specific soil characteristics biophysical and chemical, then another very interesting talk is Noelymar Gonzales Maldonado. And she is a PhD student with Christina Lazcanois here at UC Davis and Noely done some interesting survey around the perceptions of grape growers on what they think soil health is. And then she's connected that to the results of our survey to actual problem soils versus healthy soils and based on the growers deficient, and what they have done in those soils to, you know, address this idea of soil health, and it's going to be fascinating.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:02 

Oh, yeah, um, yeah, totally.

 

Cliff Ohmart  14:04 

Because we're talking about practitioners out there. What do they think regenerative AG is soil health is how do they deal with it and the soils if they have both really good ones, and not so good soils. And then the last person is I mentioned Christina Lazcano, and she's a soil scientist here at Davis, and she's going to be looking at regenerative ag and production goals. And she's leading a comprehensive effort on practices that I've already mentioned the cover crop and compost edition and looking at the effects chemically and physically on the soils. So you can see they're all related. The session is going to be interesting in that they'll all be up front, and they're going to be tag teaming. So it's going to be a really different type of session.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:49 

That sounds really, really fascinating. I know Christina and Charlotte, and they are absolutely fantastic. Not only are they great scientists, they're great communicators, that's worth the price of admission to just see that one session. As far as I'm concerned.

 

Cliff Ohmart  15:01 

So that's going to be Wednesday morning from eight to 10. So, you know, I think we've got a lot of good stuff all day. But the session opening session Tuesday morning and Wednesday morning are clearly highlights.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:15 

Something else we should mention before I forget, are there continuing education hours available?

 

Cliff Ohmart  15:19 

There are and we basically our goal was to have 15 to 18 continuing education units for PCAs. And growers. So that means related to pest management stuff, it will be a combination of the in person presentations, as well as those virtual presentations. Some of the virtual ones will be awarded CPA units, CEU units where you will have to take an exam after you have presentation because you can imagine there's no way in two days, we're going to be able to cram in 15 to 18 hours of CPUs a lot of CCA units as well, for the in person expo.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:01 

Are any of those laws and regs. DPR laws and regs units?

 

Cliff Ohmart  16:05 

There are we have a closing session on Wednesday afternoon, that is going to be done by Juan Muniz from AgSafe on worker safety and pesticides around the farm. So that'll be an hour and a half of laws and regs for that session.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:21 

You've been to a bunch of these what's what's your favorite part, we've talked, we've hit on some highlights, but just you personally what's your favorite part of going to Expo?

 

Cliff Ohmart  16:27 

My favorite part is to listen to what people are talking about in terms of the different presentations. You know, I'm biased, because I've helped put them all together. That's what I listened for. And then of course, for me, I get to see people because being retired, I don't go to many meetings anymore. And it's great to see both the growers the viticultural consultants, the trade people that I know to talk on the side. So all of that, and then it's fun to peruse the trade show, I don't have a lot of time because I ended up introducing a lot of presenters. So it's it really is a combination of all of that, because I stay at the Madonna Inn it's also fun to stay in one of those funky rooms at the Madonna Inn. That's not to say it's not comfortable. But I think you laugh. I think anybody that stayed there, they've got some really interesting rooms.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:19 

For those who don't know, in San Luis Obispo, there's a hotel called the Madonna Inn, and they have themed rooms, and they're all different. And they're all decorated to the theme. So depending on how many times you stay, you'll stay in different rooms, and you'll see different things and the facilities themselves are quite interesting. So yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun place. It's a fun place to do it. And then they have an expo hall, which is where the expo will be, which is again, really a nice building, it's really well appointed, has everything that we need. Oh, what about what about food people need bring sack lunch?

 

Cliff Ohmart  17:53 

No, my experience with the expo is there's always food available for lunch. It's gonna vary from Tuesday to Wednesday. But I have never felt like I needed to go out over lunch.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:06 

I've always been very happy.

 

Cliff Ohmart  18:08 

Yeah. And then there'll be a snack in the afternoon, and then tea and coffee and some pastry in the morning before you get there. So it's worth getting there a little at a time. Because that's there as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:20  

How did you come up with the program? Were you given direction? Did you say hey, these are great ideas that you have people come to you and say I'd like to do this? How did you put together?

 

Cliff Ohmart  18:29 

There is an organizing committee that the venue team through Beth Vukmanic put together and it's you know, it's an existing committee from year to year. And so how we start is we independent of them, I sit down and come up with some ideas and send it to them. And they do the same to me. And we very quickly put a pretty large spreadsheet together with all our ideas and with the ideas come specific people. And then from there, it really tends to come together very quickly. Once we get started reaching out to people, we base it on what's been happening in the past what seems to be current this year, that wasn't last year. So it's a combination of things.

 

Craig Macmillan  19:12 

So again, it's grower driven, growers talking about what's of interest to them, and then handing it over and saying, okay, brings the best in the brightest. Obviously, things are always in flux. And at the point of this interview, we're quite a ways out from the expo. But we do have some other rock stars. I wanted to mention, John Roncoroni is going to be there. Apparently, he's a weed scientist. He is fantastic. I think he's retired or close to it, at least the last time I talked to him. And then Kendra Baumgartner and she's been kind of a perennial favorite, her areas, trunk diseases, and that area has progressed dramatically in 20 years what we've learned and it's always a joy to see what new stuff she brings. Akif Eskalen who's doing a lot of work in nursery practices. He's doing some pretty interesting things that could impact the whole industry, which I think is is pretty cool. Emily Symmes is going to talk a little bit about mealy bugs and mating disruption and David Haviland, who's an absolutely fantastic entomologist. I think he's going to talk about ant control. That's right. He's a very good speaker, and really, really good. George Zhuang. He is an extensionist, and has been doing really great work around the central valley, I believe, predominantly, but he speaks all over the state and has worked on all kinds of stuff. I think he's going to talk about root stocks. At this time. Matthew Fidelibus is also gonna be talking about root stocks and varieties in that session.

 

Cliff Ohmart  20:31 

What I would point out there is he has developed an online guide to grape varieties  root stocks, and that specifically was talking about so I think that's a great opportunity for growers to hear about this.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:43 

I'm also happy to see that Mark Fuchs is coming back. He's from Cornell, he has been one of the leaders in research on red blotch. He was our featured speaker at the expo, gosh, I don't know five or six years ago, he's always fascinating and is doing really interesting work. And then one of my favorite entomologist, and people in the whole world, Kent Daane, is gonna be talking about leaf row virus and areawide management for mealy bugs, which is turning out to be really important working together as a group to manage a pest. It's not just within your fence line, it's crossed the area. And that's been a really interesting project that has gotten some traction in Lodi, I'm familiar what they what they've done, there. And so that should be really fascinating as well, who am I leaving out?

 

Cliff Ohmart  21:26 

Our fellow named Brent Warneke, who is going to be talking about sensor based sprayers and spraying and vineyards. He's from Oregon State. And he'll be talking about air blast, as well as micro sprayers. He's done a series of interesting work on sprayers that are sensor based. And as he sort of says in his little description, just because you have a sensor based sprayer, doesn't mean you're all ready to go. He's going to talk about how they can be best used and what they actually can do for you.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:58 

David Morgan, I'm not familiar with David Morgan, can you tell me who that is?

 

Cliff Ohmart  22:03 

You did a great job of covering the entire agenda for the in person. Now we can talk a little to finish up on the virtual part. So I was really interested in trying to get someone to come and talk about the Pierce's Disease Control Program that is based at CDFA. And it's the research arm is funded by growers by an assessment. It's very important, I think, for growers to see how successful their research dollars have been. And to make a long story short, I ended up having David Morgan, who is now working on exactly what he's gonna be talking about. But he is going to focus his presentation on the bio control of Glassman sharpshooter, which I think everybody knows is one of the crucial pairings in the Pierce's disease problem. He's stationed out in Riverside with CDFA and very knowledgeable biocontrol is his expertise, there's going to be a talk about a fellow named Michael Brownbridge who is with Bioworks. I'm not familiar with Michael but he's going to be talking about pesticides as well as bio fertilizers. So that's going to be a part of the program. And another one we just you mentioned Kent, Dana, and you refer to Lodi Yes, I've been so excited to secure Maria's Zumkeller she is with Lang Twins vineyard in Lodi and I saw a talk she gave at Lodi grape day in February, the Lang Twins have recognized for a while now the seriousness of leaf roll virus being vectored by vine mealybug. So the two together it's becoming a huge problem. They have boldly approached the use of intensive monitoring and rogueing vineyards to see if they can manage economically vine mealubug for leaf roll. And so Maria is going to be talking about the latest. They've got several years of data now and it's very amazing and impressive to see what they've done. It's possibly for people that have serious problems with leaf roll. This is one approach they might want to take and it is connected to Kent Daane's work because he's worked in the Central Coast and Lodi with area wide management and fine mealybug and coupled with that leaf roll So those are the things that I'm highlighting up then there's a talk by Luca Brillante, from Fresno and he's going to be doing a presentation on diagnosing red blocks disease, which of course is what Mark Fuchs would talk about diagnosing red blocks with spectrometry. So remote sensing.

 

Craig Macmillan  24:40 

And then there's also some thing on powdery mildew controlled organic powdery mildew control.

 

Cliff Ohmart  24:45 

Yes, there is interesting talk by Annemiek Schilder who is the county director in Ventura County and she has done a research experiment using compost tea and So that's what her presentation is going to be about. It's basically starts by saying what is compost tea, which is important to understand how to make it. And it's it's pretty simple. And then how to apply it and what results she's gotten out in the vineyard with it.

 

Craig Macmillan  25:16 

Yeah, that'll be very interesting. People have been playing around with that for a long, long time. And I think it's, it's interesting to see it come back. And then one that I think that I will try to catch is Jeff Biller talking about the grape market, we can't forget the the other E. Right. We've got the environment, social equity, and economics and so grape markets' important. So all part of the all part of the picture and the those talks whether, it's him or somebody else is always very interesting. And there's usually something along those lines in the Expo.

 

Cliff Ohmart  25:48 

And it's going to be very current. We have organized with Jeff, he will record that presentation, literally a few days before the videos will be released. So I think like October 11. So it would be very up to date. In fact, to Jeff's credit, he was not going to do a recording unless he could do it at the last minute because things change. Again, I agree. It's, you know, their times are not easy for a lot of growers. So a grape market is as complicated and

 

Craig Macmillan  26:17 

Ever changing.

 

Cliff Ohmart  26:18 

Yeah, we all need to keep track of that.

 

Craig Macmillan  26:21 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks Cliff has been great. Our guest today was a Cliff Ohmart with Omart consulting, and one of the things he does is he helps put together programming for things like the Sustainable Ag Expo, which is coming up in November of 2023. I personally cannot recommend it enough. Every time I've gone or have helped organize it. I've learned so much. And I've also met so many great people and some of them are speakers and so more growers and some of them were vendors and it's just a it's just a fantastic time to kind of get away and it's also really fun because usually hopefully harvest is over and you have a little little reward there at the end before you take your break and then come back and do budgets. So anyway, thanks, Cliff.

 

Cliff Ohmart  27:02 

You're very welcome Crreg. It was really great to do it and I will see you and San Luis Obispo.

 

Craig Macmillan  27:09 

You will see me you will see me I'll be there.

 

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

Not all wine tasters are alike - a major understatement. As traffic ebbs and flows in tasting rooms, it’s evident that interests, price points, and preferences differ.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In the tasting room you get a wide variety of customers. There’s the outgoing couple that wants to know all the details of wine production. There is the lone taster on vacation with a notebook who just makes his own tasting notes. And naturally, there’s the group of friends who get a little boisterous and lose interest when the tasting room host talks about technical attributes of the wine. Wine Intelligence recently published a study outlining six distinct consumer segments in wine. It’s important to know how to talk to each of them about sustainability.

1. Engaged Explorers:

Young, fun, ready for adventure and super into trying new wines, regions, and producers. These are consumers who like to travel to wine regions and are likely to spend more.

SIP Talk: Talk about sustainability vs. organic and biodynamic. They’ll appreciate the knowledge!

2. Premium Brand Suburbans:

These folks skew older, know what they like and know a lot about wine. They’re usually not big spenders, but in wine country can be die-hard loyalists at any price.

SIP Talk: Get technical and talk about how fruit quality is measured- Brix, pH, and TA. They’ll dig the attention to detail!

3. Contented Treaters:

They don’t drink a ton, but when they do, they don’t care how much it costs and are looking for an engaging origin story to tell at one of their fabulous cocktail parties.

SIP Talk: Stick to casual cocktail talk and discuss fun elements of sustainable vineyards like using owls and other integrated pest management practices.

4. Social Newbies:

They’re young, new to wine and relying heavily upon recommendations and valued information.

SIP Talk: Stick to the three Ps of sustainability- People Planet, Prosperity. They’ll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.

5. Senior Bargain Hunters:

The largest segment of wine drinkers in the USA, they appreciate value.

SIP Talk: Value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.

6. Kitchen Casuals:

Very infrequent wine drinkers who rarely stray from what they know and are not as interested in wine as they are in other beers and spirits.

SIP Talk: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking SIP Certified wine is a win for the people and environment.

Does Your Team Know Your Sustainable Story?

Need an easy way to help your team talk about your sustainable practices?

Download the brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet. This simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Plus, we are inspiring you by sharing what likeminded brands are doing to care for the people and the planet. 

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

For those of you who are SIP Certified, check your mailbox. Just in time for the summer winetasting season, we have mailed you table signs featuring a graphic of the 7 Values of SIP Certified plus a QR code to “read this month’s Sustainable Story”.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, too see the consumer segment infographic, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team
• Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP With Them

 

Does your team understand what sustainable winegrowing is? Can they talk with your clientele about sustainability? We have made a great online course that will help anyone learn the basics of sustainability and the SIP Certified Program! And, do not worry, you do not need to be in the SIP Certified program to take advantage of this class and it only takes about 30 minutes.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Today we help you and your team talk about sustainability with your customers.

Here’s what’s covered:

What is SIP Certified?

The SIP Smart course starts with a quick background on Vineyard Team's Sustainability in Practice (SIP) Certified program. This introduction will set the foundation for your team's understanding of what your certification represents. 

Experience The 3 Ps of Sustainability

The SIP Certified Standards cover nearly 200 practices that protect the people and the planet. How do the hundreds of SIP Certified members implement these practices at their unique properties? In this part of the SIP Smart course, we interview six SIP Certified members to find out!

• Scheid Vineyards wanted to ensure their community had a place to get together and engage in community activity. Greg Gonzalez tells us about how they had part of their vineyard removed and transformed into a soccer complex for the community.
• The subject of water conservation is huge in agriculture! Steve McIntyre of Monterey Pacific gives a quick lesson on moisture monitoring practices to determine when and how much to irrigate winegrape vines.
• Have you ever seen a falconer at work? Here's your chance! In this video interview, Jake Messenger shows us how one man and one falcon can safely and humanely move thousands of starlings off vineyard properties.
• Wondering about how sustainable vines are managed to produce high-quality grapes? Mark Pisoni takes a truly curated approach to each individual vine at Pisoni Vineyards to decide what nutrients, pest management, and farming practices to use to ensure each plant grows the highest quality grapes.
• Reducing global warming emissions is a goal of every sustainable business. Samantha Aguilar shows us solar panels at Cambria Estate Winery that are used to provide, store, and introduce energy back into the grid.
• Now that we know how each individual vine is assessed, Mark Pisoni comes back to talk about the big picture of sustainable farming! Pisoni Vineyards' conservation plan looks at the entire ranch as a whole unit -- not just the areas under cultivation. 

Consumer Research

Studies continue to show that consumers are seeking sustainable, ethically produced goods and services more than ever before. In this part of the SIP Smart course, your team can learn about recent research projects that gave us insights into how to help increase consumer awareness of sustainable wines. Are you talking about your sustainable efforts?

Get Your Certificate!

The SIP Smart course concludes with a brief quiz that will help test your team's new SIP Certified knowledge. Everyone who passes gets a certificate to show that they truly are SIP Smart!

Why Stop Here?

We have lots of great resources to help you talk about sustainability from buzz words to SIP Certified 101. Plus, play a game of Jeopardy with your team to make learning about sustainability fun.

Sustainability in Action Training Events

Want to learn how to talk about sustainability with your customers? If you are on California’s Central Coast we have three events coming up this fall. Come to an upcoming training.

		Niner Wine Estates Sept. 21 | 9:30 am - 10:30 am

Check out the show notes for links to this article, PDF downloads to help you talk about sustainability with your customers, an educational game of Jeopardy, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Research Shows Soaring Demand for Sustainable
• Share SIP 101 With Your Customers: SIP Certified 101 Understanding the Fundamentals
• SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff: SIP Buzzwords
• SIP Certified Jeopardy
• SIP Certified Program Overview Presentation 
• SIP Certified
• Sustainability in Action Events | Register (August and September 2022)
• Tailor Your Message to Fit Your Consumer: Generational Analysis Report Highlights
• Talk to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices: Answering Customers’ Top Questions
• Tools to Teach Your Team About Sustainability

When asked to define the 3 P's of Sustainability (People, Planet, Prosperity), Prosperity is often the one gives people pause.

But it's such an important leg of the stool! Sustainable businesses develop long-term plans and strategies to ensure they can thrive now and into the future.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Some of the ways businesses embody Prosperity are through:

• Creating and sticking to a budget.
• Keeping thorough records.
• Creating informed and effective marketing plans.

A business can also extend their prosperity through collaborative efforts with like-minded groups. When this happens, both parties win.

Organizations that partner over shared values benefit by:

• Pooling resources.
• Building relationships.
• Advancing awareness and support for their cause.

For example, Cambria Estate Winery is a Business rooted in women’s leadership. Their team partners with organizations that share their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way.

Cultivating Female Empowerment

Cambria Estate Winery is rooted women’s leadership. Their certified sustainable wines are even named after their proprietors – Barbara, Katherine, and Julia.

Did you know that their dedication to recognizing the experiences and achievements of women goes even deeper? Uplifting and empowering women is core to their Business values, and they have a big way of showing it.

Every March for Women’s History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women’s leadership, and pledges $25k to support their efforts.

Tamara Bingham, Cambria’s Brand Manager, gets to make the phone call to let the organization know they were selected – a task she says is “probably the most rewarding part of my job.”

In 2024, she notified the lead of American Farmland Trust’s “Women for the Land” initiative to pledge their support. Right in line with Cambria’s own sustainable practices, this initiative supports women farmers and landowners in preserving their land and embracing conservatism.

Other past years’ partnership organizations include Equity Now, Women’s Earth Alliance, SeaTrees, and Amazon Frontlines.

Through these partnerships, Cambria demonstrates their dedication to using the power of their platform to help uplift and empower women everywhere.

Their Business practices are founded on their belief that a commitment to sustainability is also a commitment to amplifying the messages of the many deserving organizations working towards a better future.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!      

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: While most consumers say that environmental friendliness plays a significant role in how they make purchasing decisions. Brands, messaging about sustainability only reaches about half of global consumers. Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry.

[00:00:24] These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:30] Your sustainable story can be shared across any of your communication channels, including social media, wine club, newsletters, tasting room signage, and so much more.

[00:00:39] Are you wondering what to tell your audience about in your next story? From cover crops to owl boxes and water collection, ponds to native landscaping. There are many sustainability topics. right outside of your window.

[00:00:51] At ancient peaks winery in Santa margarita, California. There is no shortage of natural. conversation fodder. Their sustainable story highlighting the value of habitat shows creative ways to support the native wildlife that lives around their vineyard.

[00:01:07] The Santa margarita ranch. Ava represents just one vineyard. Ancient peaks wineries estate, margarita vineyard. Which is home to an abundance of beloved wildlife.

[00:01:17] The team takes great care to respect and facilitate the presence of their winged and furry friends through the preservation of their habitat.

[00:01:25] Wildlife corridors are present through and around the vineyard to ensure animals have free and safe passage. Black bears, Bobcats, mountain lions, wild pigs turkeys, deer, and bald Eagles are among the many creatures. That you'll find.

[00:01:39] There's also aquatic life at the ranch. The team protects Creek setbacks and implements filter strips between the vineyard and waterways to keep the water healthy. With all of this life on the property, not all of it is beneficial to the health of the vineyard crop. To help keep pests at bay, the ranch attracts natural predators with bat boxes, Al boxes, and wrapped her purchase. They even invite a herd of goats to feast on their vegetation, acting as low impact herbicide alternative.

[00:02:05] They're affiliated margarita adventures is dedicated to nature and wildlife appreciation and education.

[00:02:11] The ranches natural list. Jackleen.

[00:02:14] offers a variety of guided wildlife tours. For guests, including nature, adventure tours, Eagle tours, forging tours, and photograph tours.

[00:02:24] Think about the habitat around your vineyard.

[00:02:27] How will you highlight preserving nature at your property?

[00:02:30] If you want more inspiration to help share your sustainable story, make sure you check out our newly updated online course. We've spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories for finding our training module and recording and editing video content.

[00:02:45] This simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. To get started. Just go to the show notes. Click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today. Until next time, this is sustainable winegrowing with the vineyard team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet 
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back. This research is exactly what Kathy Kelley, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University loves to do. In her studies, she has found that sustainability is very important to customers however it can mean different things to different people.  While 7 out of 10 adults in the United States consider purchasing food and beverage with a sustainability component a priority, one-fourth of these respondents could not articulate sustainability. This gives the industry a great opportunity to better communicate what sustainability means.

Communicating sustainability should be incorporated into a brand's DNA from point A to point B through all marketing channels including face-to-face, social media, print, and website. Storytelling is a great way to convey your brand values because consumers are more likely to remember stories. By describing specific practices and why they are important, you set yourself apart from the competition and create an emotional connection with your consumers. Kathy’s research on sharing cover cropping practices found that customers were willing to pay one to four dollars more per bottle after learning about the specific sustainable practices. Listen in for more tips on how to determine your customer demographic and refine your marketing.

References:

• Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be a marketing tool
• Kathy Kelley
• Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices
• Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member
• What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult
• Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

I'm your host, Craig Macmillan and with us today is Kathy Kelly. She is professor of horticultural marketing and retail business management at Penn State University. Kathy, thanks for being here.

 

Kathy Kelley  0:08 

Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:11 

Tell us a little bit about the work that you do and where your kind of research interests lie.

 

Kathy Kelley  0:15 

So I've been a faculty member at Penn State since 2001. And I have a teaching extension research appointment, all three of my aspects deal with some sort of marketing component. And my research, I really became very interested in learning about why people drink wine, how to kind of use those attitudes and behaviors to help smaller producers, medium sizeed wineries, focusing on the consumer and use that to their their benefit. So I've really kind of done a bit of research in the mid Atlantic area to understand why we buy and then what type of product characteristics and tasting room components really make that an experience for consumers that the want to come back again and again to the facility.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:58 

That is super interesting. So based on consumer research, how much do consumers care about the origins of the products they consume in terms of sustainability.

 

Kathy Kelley  1:06 

So sustainability is very important to consumers and more so with the younger generation, then maybe generations that are a little bit more mature. But sustainability can mean quite a few things to many different people. Sustainability not only refers to the environment, but to the social, and the economic sustainability pieces of that three piece stool, but within one economic sustainability. One person may consider sustainability and include organic or certified organic foods, and another may not. So there is an interest in say sustainability. But there's some confusion as to what it really means. Talking with the students in my class, who are Gen Z's young millennials, you know, they really are interested in sustainability. But like the consumers at large, they might not be able to articulate it. We also have this component where consumers are not really that knowledgeable or a portion of consumers not really that knowledgeable about how their food is grown. So when you put the two together, you can see that the confusion grows even more. In Pennsylvania, for example, because of our excessive rain and humidity, it may not be possible for us to grow grapes organically. But we can use other certain types of sustainable measures, like cover crops to control weeds, and use other production methods to control diseases. Or we could use lighter weight glass bottles or be a recycling center for consumers to bring their wine bottles back to and then we use those pieces to inform consumers that we do partake, and we do incorporate certain sustainable activities in the wine production for the industry. And then we need to craft the message that it makes sense to the audience. But I do have to point out that there's been quite a few reports published recently about how sustainability is becoming more important to consumers, and one if I could point it out as morning consult, and they published a report in September called what sustainability means to consumers. And they divided the report up into different types of chapters, if you will, based on the topic and for food and beverages. They found that 7 in 10 us adults would consider purchasing food and beverages as a priority if it has a sustainability component to it. However, when they asked survey participants to describe what it means to be sustainable, one in four said that they didn't know they couldn't articulate it. Others referred to the packaging with such as reducing the amount of filler or the the types of components used to package the product to ship it to the store to the consumer. And others talked about how it was recycling that the facility recycled materials that they didn't use, or any scrap or call material was recycled rather than thrown in the trash. And then some talked about how it was less waste when growing food. So there's quite a bit of difference as far as what consumers say sustainability is. But we know that there's interest, it's just that we need to do a better job of communicating to consumers what sustainability means in the food and beverage space.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:59 

And that sounds like a larger scale, picture communicating just kind of in general, what about a specific company or brand? Obviously, differentiation in the marketplace is crucial to the success of any brand. And this is often done by a compelling story to the consumer about the brand. We also might be telling a story from an industry standpoint, why is it important for a winery or vineyard to include the sustainability related aspects of their business in their story?

 

Kathy Kelley  4:24 

So I'm a real proponent of of storytelling. Storytelling is a great way to convey to consumers the business's purpose or its why, who they serve and the solutions they provide. And we are more likely to remember stories than facts. So if a wine brand has a compelling story to tell about what they're doing to minimize their impact on the environment, they should certainly use it and they should share that information. But the store needs to be authentic. If a brand's story is not genuine, and it is clear that the sustainable efforts are implemented merely to boost their profitability, consumers can tell and could likely decide not To pursue that brand. But brands who make sustainability a central part of their business need to identify consumers with the same interest and learn more about these consumers, these likely buyers, so they need to learn about their needs, their wants and behaviors that can help them develop the narrative, it would then be ideal to ask likely buyers with an interest in sustainability to react to the story, so that it does make sense to them so that the words that are used are appropriate. And then this information can help wine businesses determine whether the message resonates with consumers. And when it does, it becomes more powerful than just providing facts.

 

Craig Macmillan  5:38 

Now, is that a face to face human to human kind of communication? You mentioned that you have to have some response from the consumer or are there other communication at a distance ways that you can engage to other consumers interested or how to get through them?

 

Kathy Kelley  5:52 

Absolutely. So in the tasting room it makes sense that it would be somebody behind the tasting bar sharing the information, kind of striking up a conversation, seeing what's important to the consumer talking about certain sustainability efforts that the wine brand is doing. But also social media is really key with the ability to have you know, images and video, and even you know, one and two way conversations with you know, different platforms, it should be incorporated into the brand's DNA from point A to point B, which would be the consumer, it really has to flow through, it has to be authentic, there's just so many ways to kind of focus in on what that component is that that is so meaningful to the brand. And it's an emotional thing to you know, consumers are so emotional, emotional beings, that when a wine brand is able to convey the emotion as to why sustainability is so important to them, then that builds a stronger connection between the wine brand and the consumer. And the consumer is more likely to respond in a positive way. And you know, frequent that brand tasting room or purchase that brands product.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:58 

That's a question I hadn't thought of until you just mentioned it. And that is emotion, do we know very much about what kinds of emotion are a tap to sustainability products or how emotions are attached to a company, and it's talking about sustainability.

 

Kathy Kelley  7:12 

So I don't have that particular data set in front of me. But emotion is very important to any type of purchase that we make. 94% of our decision making processes based on our emotion that we use emotion in some capacity to make a decision whether we're going to particular pharmacy to just get medication, because it's an absolute need, or something like wine, where it's more of a pleasure seeking type of product, or we're seeking pleasure by purchasing it or as the after effect of of making that purchase. Emotion is very important. There is research that shows that about 64, 65% of both men and women have stated that at one time, they've either developed an emotional bond with a brand, or an emotional bond with a brand's product. So emotion is very important in our decision making process.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:02 

Is it a feeling of satisfaction, a feeling of happy, positive feelings is it a feeling of obligation? Like, how do I know what I'm feeling? I just feeling? What is it that I'm feeling kind of specifically, I guess, do we know do we have any idea?

 

Kathy Kelley  8:20 

So I don't have access to the literature. And I haven't really looked at the exact emotions that sustainability. What particulars of an emotional branch of state sustainability resonate with consumers, I can take a guess. But that's about it.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:34 

That's exactly I can take a guess I feel the same way. I've had a lot of experience working in tasting rooms, including recently. And when you communicate with the customer, sometimes you get a really clear picture of kind of what they're about. And other times you really can they're very opaque. And yet you know, that those processes are going on? It's just hard to tell. And it's hard to tell which what processes can interfere with other processes and which ones are gonna be most effective. So you mentioned a little bit about social media, website, stuff in the tasting room. Does describing specific sustainable farming practices make a difference in consumer attitudes towards a product do you think? And are consumers interested in specifics?

 

Kathy Kelley  9:12 

So I believe that describing the specific sustainability practices used in the vineyard to grow grapes is important for a few reasons, it's likely that you'll be able to educate consumers about a topic that they may not be familiar with, or it kind of sparked some interest in them where they you've used some key words, and they understand that because that's in their vocabulary, and also provides a level of transparency. You're not just saying that you're sustainable, but you're talking about the different steps you're taking to be sustainable, and it's part of the storytelling process. So for example, we conducted a survey and we published the results in the International Journal Wine Business Research and 2021. And we had identified wine consumers who were likely to sample wine from vineyards using cover crops as a way to suppress weeds and reduce herbicide applications. And we felt it was important that our survey participants responded to questions based on a specific scenario. We just didn't want to say that the wines were sustainable. We wanted to talk about what we were doing in the vineyard to make them sustainable, so that we will get more accurate data. So we did not want them to just make assumptions about why we use cover crops, but we told them specifically that they were to suppress weeds. So before they responded to questions about their likelihood to sample such wines, they read a short passage about herbicides being used in the vineyard, and that they were used to maintain a weed free zone under the grape vines, but that herbicides could potentially leak in the groundwater and cause soil erosion that by planting cover crops under the grape vines, we may be able to control weeds and reduce chemical input or eliminate herbicide use overall, this is something that's being used by Makayla Centinari. She's an Associate Professor of viticulture at Penn State University. And this is what a good portion of her research is on how do you suppress weeds in a vineyard using cover crops. We were also interested in investigating what consumers are who as a consumer group, we're willing to sample wines made from these grapes, but also pay $1 to cover the costs of implementing the cover crops. Because we know that based on some cost of production materials that we had, and some statistics, that it was more expensive to plant cover crops and to maintain them as opposed to applying herbicides to control the weeds. So we did have to provide that information to consumers. Because it's very much part of the purchasing process. Not only is it what the label on the bottle, the wine looks like but it's also the price that the wine sells for. So we did find consumers who were not only just willing to pay $1, more for that bottle of wine, because we had told them about the benefits of using cover crops in the vineyard. But we actually found segments of consumers who are willing to pay up to $4 more for the bottle of wine. So for us, we think it's very much that we have to provide the situation for the consumer, not just for the study. But for other studies as well, I don't think that we would get as rich have a dataset, if we just did sustainable or grown using x, we have to explain why that is. And again, it's a little bit of understanding what the consumer want. But it's also a little bit of explaining to consumers what what the product is. So it works for research. And that's something that I would strongly suggest wineries do as well, being very transparent. Talk about the specifics. Again, there's many different benefits to the business as to why you would want to do so.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:33 

you know, probably don't have that on this. But just just to kind of talk about it for a minute. How much energy do you think a consumer is willing to put in to understand or conceive or think about these kinds of things? And the reason that I ask is, I think most of us at least being for myself have a relatively short attention span. And so I might seek out a product or try to find a product with a particular set of qualities like oh, this is, you know, less impact on the planet, or there's a social justice component to it. Personally, I'm only willing to go so far to put in so much energy. What is your take on that? How, how much energy do you think people were willing to put in? And so I guess what I'm asking is, how much of a window do we have? Either in terms of text or time or imagery, or ease of access to information? What's the what's the window like? Do you think?

 

Kathy Kelley  13:20 

Yeah, so I think that's a pretty important question to consider. Because when I'm thinking about the students in my class, and there's data on this, that somebody has suggested that the millennials have an attention span of 12 seconds, Gen Z, the young, who are younger than Millennials have about eight seconds, as far as an attention span. And then when it comes to the internet, both groups having shorter attention span, so it kind of goes along with the what do you do as far as promoting your product to your core group, your target market, first of all, you have to identify them. So if I was going to craft this sustainable message for a winery, I would first of all understand what wine consumers like dislike, and then find that segment within those consumers that are interested in sustainability. I'm never going to get everybody to want to buy sustainable wine. So I have to focus on those where it makes the most sense the likely buyers, and then I have to talk to them about how do you learn about particular types of issues? How do you learn about sustainable? How interested are you? What are your habits. Do you recycle? Do you not do X, Y or Z because of some sort of limitation or barrier and me as a winery, if it deals with wine? Can I make that offer you a solution for that. The students in my class again, those millennials, those Gen z's, they they really can flip the switch really quickly on whether the information is going to grab them or not. So with social media, luckily, photos do such a great service to us to convey a message so it's very much about crafting a visual that that is going to capture their attention and then hopefully be the hook for them to read more either in the description the caption or another website, the frequency of how how many times you send that message out, you've got to kind of think about what the social media suggestions are for number of Instagram posts, when to post them. It is a mix of knowing who your audience is knowing what words or emotions to use in the message, and then knowing how to craft that message so that it hits the right target audience at the right time, and is compelling enough to convert them to a buyer or to seek you out for more information.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:25 

How do I find out who my consumer is?

 

Kathy Kelley  15:29 

So there are acouple of resources online that are free. Some have particular types of data that's behind a paywall. But there are certainly ways to find information about consumers without mentioning a particular type of association or organization that provides information for free. Certainly, if you search the web for in quotes, wind marketing, wind consumer, or you set up Google Alerts to find that information for you, you'll find that there's information that is even published in our mainstream wine business, wine marketing journals. A good deal of information is published by the restaurant industry, or you know, you may not be just looking at wine data, you may want to seek out data about consumers of all alcoholic beverages or spirit drinkers or beer drinkers different information is out there, just take a little hunting then to find the specifics. But then once you find those resources, I think that you, you just continue to return to them. Certainly other options include paying a consultant to do research. But also winery should invest their time into, you know, looking at their list of subscribers, if they have a news, e newsletter, or if they have some sort of membership club and really using that those names and surveying them, asking them to learn more about specific topics. And not just sustainability. But other types of topics that will if they had that information, and they gathered it from likely buyers, would help them in being more economically sustainable.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:02 

That's encouraging, because I was afraid I was gonna have to spend a year and a half with focus groups. Other people take care of that for us. Thank goodness, that's great.

 

Kathy Kelley  17:13 

And so the data might be skewed to perhaps California just because of the size of the population. But you can then use the information kind of think about it, see what could potentially work for your business and then query your own consumers to learn about their their attitudes and behaviors.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:31 

Well, I guess today has been Kathy Kelly. She's professor of horticultural marketing and retail business management at Penn State University. This has been great thank you for for sharing all of this work and knowledge that you have. Where can people find out more about you or related topics?

 

Kathy Kelley  17:45 

Well, thank you again for inviting me. My information is published as far as the types of articles that are right based on research that we've done, and then just general articles about wine marketing can be found on the Penn State Extension website. Our grape and wine team has a number of articles from viticulture technology to the ones that I write on marketing and business management, and then others that kind of fall in between those three main topics, feel free to reach out to me anytime.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:13 

Fantastic. And we will have those links in the episode page on our website. So please check it out. Again, Kathy has been great.

 

Kathy Kelley  18:21 

Thank you very much.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Conservationists Margy Lindquist with USDA Natural Resource Conservation Service and Devon Best with Upper Salinas Las Tablas Resource Conservation District, discuss the importance of and the process of creating a conservation plan. Conservation plans are a tool for land owners to identify opportunities and issues to be addressed to protect and enhance their land for generations to come.

References:

• Conservation Assistance with NRCS Podcast
• Resource Conservation District (RCD) Services
• Upper Salinas Las Tablas Resource Conservation District
• NRCS Service Centers in California

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Audra Cooper, Broker/Partner at Turrentine Brokerage began her career in 2006 providing support for grape brokers throughout the state and has served as lead grape broker for the Central Coast region of California since 2012. She grew up on ranches in the Central Coast and graduated from California State University at Fresno with a degree in Agricultural Economics. Audra talks about what wine and grape brokering is, the factors that affect grape pricing, the 2018 grape market, how sustainable certification can help set grapes apart in a crowded market, and the quality of the 2019 crop.

References:

• A Practical Guide to Developing a Commercial Wine Vineyard | Mark Chien (Podcast)
• Audra Cooper
• Fresno State University Department of Agricultural Business
• SIP Certified
• Turrentine Brokerage
• Turrentine Wine Wheel
• Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

"In North America, and the U.S. particularly, sustainability has grown from a nice-to-have to a key trigger for consumers," according to Food Business News.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Today we share three places where you can create a story narrative around your sustainable practices to drive sales.

1. Online

Consumers are increasingly using the internet and social media to find and share their favorite brands. So, bolster up your website like these two brands.

Castoro Cellars has a dedicated page on their website complete with a video showcasing their solar arrays, an image of their recent environmental award, and an explanation on what sustainable agriculture is.

Another great example is the Farming for the Future blog post by Pisoni Vineyards. This article includes beautiful photography of their insectary, the tools they use to reduce water, and how they care for their team by providing competitive wages, health insurance, and excellent training.

Your website is the perfect place to showcase the sustainable practices that you use. Talk with your farmer, winemaker, owner, and the whole team to gather up stories that are specific to your brand. Pair them with nice photography to give your customers a peek behind the scenes of your great wine. If you are SIP Certified, you can also include the logo on your website with a link to the SIP Certified website to encourage shoppers to learn more about your practices and the requirements for certification. 

2. Off-Premise

You can also showcase your sustainability off-premise. These channels include any place your wine can be seen outside of your winery or tasting room.

With so many consumers purchasing from physical retail outlets and online stores, it's clear that promoting your message of sustainability on your physical product or at the store shelf is vital. Work with retailers to set up a sustainable wine section or to add shelf hangers with information on sustainability below your bottles. Of course, if you are SIP Certified you can include the logo on your wine label as well.

Food and Beverage Insights reports third-party certification is increasingly important with consumers; “The idea of 'responsible consumerism' is growing as Americans are turning their dollars toward companies and brands that are backed by a commitment to bettering the planet for generations to come.”

3. Staff Training

Don’t forget to train your team. Your customer-facing staff are the front lines for consumer education.

Training them to speak about your sustainable actions is easy! We offer a free online training course that anyone can complete to brush up on all things sustainability. It even includes a fun quiz to test your knowledge.

If you love these episodes, they are another great way for your team to learn about effective ways to incorporate the message of sustainability into everyday customer-facing conversations. If you did not know, we also offer these in a newsletter format so you can sign up to get marketing tips delivered right to your inbox twice a month.

If you want to learn more about how storytelling can help you sell more wine, check out our interview with Kathy Kelley of Penn State University. She explains how understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back.

Check out the show notes for a link to the interview with Kathy Kelley, links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, to download the seasons of sustainability PDF, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine  
• Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be marketing tool
• Kathy Kelley
• Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing
• Seasons of Sustainability
• SIP Certified
• What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult
• Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

Jeff Newton President and CEO, Costal Vineyard Care Associates discusses his career, the history and future of the Santa Ynez American Viticultural Area. Topics include how he got into farming, why he chose wine grapes, and changes he’s seen in the Santa Ynez Valley AVA over the years.

References:

• Coastal Vineyard Care Associates
• Founding Father: Jeff Newton | Interview with Heather Daenitz
• Grower Interview Jeff Newton | Interview with Laurie Daniel
• Jeff Newton’s Bio
• Winegrowing Areas of Santa Barbara County

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more.

Yet, almost 52% of employees in the food and beverage industry only receive training when they join their organization. Of those that do receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company’s mission and values (TalentLMS, 2019).

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the most downloaded Marketing Tip Monday episode of 2023: #178: The Training Your Tasting Room Staff Needs.

Why Education Matters

If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated team!

One way tasting room managers can educate their staff on the company's mission and values is to have continual conversations about what your brand is up to behind the scenes, i.e., your sustainability efforts.

Tips from an Insider

The hospitality team at Center of Effort can tell you all about the brand’s commitment to sustainability. In recurring staff meetings, the team talk about what’s going on in the winery and in the vineyard, plus what the brand is doing to improve their sustainability.

John Gayley, Hospitality Team Member at Center of Effort says there are three big benefits to these conversations about sustainability:

1. Staff know their input matters.
2. The business improves its sustainability.
3. Guests get a richer, more meaningful tasting experience.

“Education really enforces the importance of each of our roles in helping Center of Effort stay up on its sustainability efforts,” John shares. “Hospitality staff reinforce the brand. We can highlight our commitment to sustainability more if we understand what we are doing both fundamentally, and the new and exciting things we’re doing to improve. These conversations keep everyone engaged and ready to come up with new ideas.”

John often takes guests on vineyard tours. He says that people are “fascinated by what goes on in the vineyard, and by the thought that goes into the sustainable approach.”

Visitors love learning about cover crops, irrigation, owl boxes, and more. “When guests talk with a well-informed team member, this helps all of us in our mission of sustainability.”

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!      

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Margy Lindquist is District Conservationist with the USDA NRCS office in Templeton, California. She explains what the NRCS is and how they help landowners conserve the resources on their property through technical and financial assistance.

References:

• Natural Resources Conservation Service
• Web Soil Survey (WWS)

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Every vineyard has a portion of the property that is non-productive, but are there ways to maximize the benefits of this land? Fintan du Fresne, General Manager and Winemaker for both Chamisal Vineyards and Maine Wines and Christian Rodriguez, Assistant Vineyard Manager at Chamisal Vineyards found the answer to this question with a Miyawaki Mini-forest. Conceived by Japanese botanist Akira Miyawaki, these mini-forests can take be developed in spaces as small as 30 square yards.

Development of a coastal oak woodland at Chamisal Vineyards began by excavating three feet down, adding mulch and compost, and planting 400 to 500 native plants at a high density. This process enables the forest to establish three to four times as rapidly as it would in a natural setting. The established forest will not only proffer a habitat for local fauna but, also provide carbon sequestration. The next phase of this project includes a partnership with Cal Poly State University to pipe C02 from the winery into the forest to see how much carbon sequestration is possible.

References:

• 92: Regenerative Agriculture
• 102: Effects of Landscape Management on Pest Control in Vineyards
• Akira Miyawaki
• Chamisal Vineyards
• Conservation Plan Template
• Malene Wines
• Las Pilitas Nursery
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

The average winery sells 30 percent of their wines out of the tasting room plus another 20 percent to restaurants. That means 40 to 60 of annual sales are impacted by COVID-19 with closed tasting rooms and take out only restaurants IF shelter in place were to continue all year. But, Rob McMillan, VP and Founder of the Silicon Valley Bank Wine doubts that will be the case.

We were already experiencing a market correction before COVID-19, so what can wineries do now and in the future to connect with their consumers and sell wines? For production; preserve cash, work with vendors and employees to cut costs, and push bottling out. For marketing, start a phone campaign with your customers, offer drive through pickups or deliveries, and use this time as an opportunity to cross train your team.

The good news is people drink wine. During prohibition alcohol consumption actually increased. It is time to get creative; meet your consumers where they are. Figure out new DTC tactics via digital channels. Market to the health-conscious consumer by talking about ingredients, calories, values, and sustainable practices.

Previous market corrections have ended with an increase in demand. Today’s wineries need to get to the other side of this slump prepared with new marketing campaigns to connect to their consumers.

References:

• Communicating Ingredients - What's in that SIP?
• Crisis Management for Wine Country | Rob McMillan
• Insights for Successful Consumer Wine Sales Videocast
• Rob McMillan
• SIP Certified Self-Assessment
• SIP Smart | April 22
• State of the Industry Wine Report 2020 | Rob McMillan
• SVB on Wine
• SIP with a Somm | April 7
• Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP with Them

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

The Spotted Lanternfly (SLF) is the newest agricultural invasive species in the United States. Originally from Asia, this insect feeds on plant sap from a broad range of hosts. Dr. Heather Leach, Extension Associate at the Department of Entomology at Penn State University is focused on researching this insect and educating the public on how to manage the pest. Although it appears that SLF has been in the United States for some years, growers are now seeing adverse effects and report extreme vine decline and death.

A major part of Heather’s research is around how to manage SLF. While a large number of insecticides are effective, the challenge is that population’s levels are highest during harvest. This restricts the insecticide use to products with low residuals and requires more applications. Alternative management trials with some promise include exclusion netting, cannon sprayers, building a border with insecticide treated netting, and determining if there are predators already in the United States.  

References:

• Heather Leach
• Lanternfly Study Yields Insight into Insecticide, Biopesticide Effectiveness
• Penn State Extension Spotted Lanternfly
• SIP Certified
• Spotted Lanternfly Frequently Asked Questions
• StopSLF.org
• Sustainable Ag Expo
• Using Traps for Spotted Lanternfly Management

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Tom Lorish, Senior Customer Relationship Manager, describes multiple Pacific Gas & Electric Company programs and rebates to put money into growers’ pockets.

References:

• 39: Saving Water, Saving Energy, Saving Money
• Advanced Pumping Efficiency Program (APEP)
• July 26, 2018 Tailgate: Water Efficiency, Solar Energy, and Battery Storage
• Net Energy Metering (Video) | An easy to understand video explaining Net Energy Metering
• PG&E Agriculture and Food Processing Rebate Catalog
• PG&E website
• Time-of-Use Rate Plans
• Tom Lorish, Customer Relationship Manager, PG&E: (805) 595-6430
• Wexus

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play,  iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Thach and Lease asked the managers of 375 United States wineries, "How much impact do you believe your social media efforts have on wine sales?"  87% of respondents said they believe that their social media presence increases sales. 

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Today we are asking the question, Does social media impact wine sales?

Social media has changed the way consumers and businesses interact. It not only provides convenient two-way communication between consumers and the products and services they support, but it has opened the door for consumers to participate in the marketing and messaging of brands by creating their own content about the products they love and sharing it with their friends, family, and communities.

A 2018 study looking at the social media adoption and activities of 1173 wineries in Germany, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, suggests that "wineries need to develop a clear purpose for using social media and then adapt to the needs of the consumers in their respective markets." To do so, it is important to understand how consumers interact with wine brands on social media and what kind of content they are looking for.

Provide Value by Offering Guidance

Wine is complex. Many consumers who are new to drinking wine don't know what they're looking for, and could easily find themselves overwhelmed and intimated by the numerous varieties, tasting notes, and wine brands on the market. Creating educational and informative wine content can help to create trust between consumers and your brand.

Here are a few ideas to get you started:

• How to choose your next bottle by working with existing preferences
• How to pair wine with a meal to plan a special dinner
• How to line up an at-home tasting

·         Bonus tip: Ask your followers what they want to learn more about! When you deliver on their requests, they'll continue to look out for your valuable posts.

Interact With Consumers

Word of mouth is one of the most common ways we hear about new brands and products to try. We are social creatures and feel more secure taking a chance on a product that has been vetted by a friend or colleague. How often have you seen your friends and family post a picture of a meal at their favorite restaurant, a picnic spread with a bottle of wine set up in the yard, or simply posing with a new item they fell in love with? Next time you see one of these, check the caption - a lot of people will tag the brands and companies included in their photos!

If you receive a notification that your brand has been tagged in someone's content, take the opportunity to make a connection with a loyal customer by leaving a response in the comments. Social media offers a low-cost way for you to build relationships with consumers and your brand community, and being a brand that engages with its customers sets you up to receive continued support.

There is an easy way to catch up on posts you're tagged in on Instagram that you may have missed! Go to your profile, and above the grid displaying your posts to the far right is an icon you can tap on to see posts from other users that you've been tagged in. Check it out, and get to interacting!

Collaborate with an Influencer

Social media "lifestyle influencers" are people who use their social media channels to promote products and services of companies whose products are used by everyday people in their daily lives. They connect their niche audiences to brands that share common values and interests - a phenomenon that is changing the way consumers find and connect with brands. Specifically, "wine influencers" are often educated and even certified in wine education.

Teaming up with a social media influencer is a fun way to reach groups of people who may be unaware of your brand. Collaboration with a wine influencer is a way to ensure that your brand is being shared with consumers who are passionate about wine and wine culture.

Psst ... we are helping spread the word about sustainability and our members' brands! Keep an eye out for the next Marketing Tip, where we will show our recent social media influencer collaborations that have helped spread the news about our members' good work protecting the people and the planet.

Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs!

If you are SIP Certified, we love seeing and sharing your content! Tag us @SIPCertified in your upcoming Instagram and Facebook posts.

And make sure you use our GIPHYs on your next Instagram story or Snapchat content. Just search for "SIP Certified" in the stickers, or check out the link to this article to save the files so you can use them in your emails or on your website.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, another post filled with the latest social media tips to grow your following, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Does social media impact wine sales?
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• SIP Smart Training online course

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Greg Pennyroyal of Wilson Creek Winery and Vineyards was looking for soil moisture systems and found that the products available in the market were all expensive, proprietary systems that did not meet the needs of small block Temecula vineyards.

He partnered with Reinier van der Lee, CEO of Vinduino, to reverse engineer the technology to develop a product that would give the same results for a fraction of the cost. They have expanded this project over the last five years to collect more and more data that can improve irrigation decisions. Today, they can connect the dots between SAP analysis and soil analysis and continue to add more variables. Over collecting data now will allow them to see what things are most actionable so they can develop a system that is economical and implementable for all blocks.

Because there is more to irrigation than how much water is put on, the next phases of research will look at how water holding capacity, organic matter, and biological capacity at vineyards under different farming methods like Regenerative Agriculture impact irrigation efficiency.

References:

• 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis
• 121: Regenerative Agriculture (Rebroadcast)
• Greg Pennyroyal
• Irrigation Best Management Practices
• Kind Harvest
• Reinier van der Lee
• SIP Certified
• Tailgates
• Vinduino
• Wilson Creek Winery & Vineyards

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

While wineries can maintain business operations during COVID-19, day to day operations look much different than they did the first few months of 2020. Hear how three wineries are adapting to their new way of doing business.  

Nathan Carlson, General Manager and Winemaker of Center of Effort Wines shares how they are discovering opportunities and better way to do business from saving on travel with telecommuting distributor presentation to connecting face to face with club members across the nation for the first time through virtual tastings.

Dieter Cronje, Winemaker at Presqu’ile explains the challenges and decreased efficiency of bottling with a smaller crew, plus how they are planning to reopen their tasting room.

Molly Bohlman, Winemaker at Niner Wine Estates explains how they are making team decisions to ensure their entire staff feels safe plus how they are rearranging schedules to maintain social distancing.  

These interviews were recorded mid May 2020. Best practices continue to evolve, so please review your local best practices for the latest information.

References:

• 7/15 Strategizing Social Media in 2020 Webinar
• An Opportunity for Innovation: State of the US Wine Industry | Rob Macmillan
• Center of Effort Wines
• Governor Newsom Announces California Winery Tasting Room Reopenings
• Niner Wine Estates
• Presqu’ile
• Resources Regarding Coronavirus and COVID-19
• SIP Certified
• Wine Institute Corona Virus Update
• Wine Marketing Series (Podcast)

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Josh Prigge, Founder and CEO of Sustridge, a sustainability consulting firm, talks about the ways he has helped his former employers and current clients to not only reduce their environmental impacts, but to work toward regenerative ways of doing business.

References:

• Sustainable Hawai’I Pacific University Facebook page
• Josh’s Blog
• josh@sustridge.com
• Sustainable Nation | Josh Prigge (Podcast)
• Sustridge

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play,  iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

It’s here! The tool that you need to tell your Sustainable Story.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

In this week's Marketing Tip we are launching the brand new, Our Sustainable Story series. Research shows that the demand for sustainable products keeps growing so we developed this series just for you! By following along with this series, you will be able to incorporate your message of sustainability into your whole business.  Here is how to start telling your customers how you take care of the people and the planet today.

Get Started

1. Download the “Our Sustainable Story” fillable PDF (print version and electronic filling version)
2. Complete the PDF with your unique stories alongside your whole team (viticulturist, winemaker, tasting room, sales, marketing).
3. Share your stories in all of your marketing channels (we're here to help – see below!)

Want an example? Read how Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet by embodying the 7 values of SIP Certified.

Stay Tuned

Because telling your sustainable story can help you sell more wine, we have created a 7-month series to help you incorporate your good work into every aspect of your messaging.

Throughout the rest of the year, we will share easy-to-implement training, branding, and sales strategies that will positively impact your business. Plus, we will share SIP Certified members’ Sustainable Stories to further inspire you.

Stay tuned, here is what’s coming up:

• Continuous onboarding: a training strategy.
• The “why”s and “how”s of featuring sustainability on your website.
• New SIP Certified tools for consumer education.
• Re-vamped SIP Smart online course for your staff.
• How to update your photography on any budget.
• Featuring sustainability via social media.
• Self-guided QR tours for your visitors.
• Newsletter tips for your audiences.

Download the new Our Sustainable Stories worksheet to easily highlight 7 things your brand does sustainably!

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Our Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print
• Our Sustainable Story Worksheet for Electronic Filling
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team

The proportion of regular wine drinkers willing to pay more for sustainable wine has significantly increased in the past two years (IWSR, 2022). Your customers will only know that your wine was made sustainably if you tell them!

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Using storytelling to share with your customers the specific things your brand does that are sustainable and why they are important (i.e. telling your Sustainable Story) helps make it clear that yours is a business that truly walks the walk when it comes to caring for the people and the planet. It builds an emotional connection and fills gaps in consumer knowledge of sustainability.

Plant and animal pests are a common issue for all winegrowers. Read on to learn how in an effort to conserve water and promote plant health, Jean-Pierre Wolff of Wolff Vineyards discovered a unique pest mitigation strategy!

Safe Pest Management at Wolff Vineyards

In 2017, Jean-Pierre Wolff decided that rather than replanting his vines on the same rootstocks, he would convert to drought-resistant rootstocks and plant them three feet into the ground.

Deriving inspiration from an African palm farming technique, Jean-Pierre uses PVC pipes to deliver water and nutrients directly to the root zone. There is no wait time for the nutrients to be pushed to the roots, and no water is wasted through parts of the soil that contain no roots.

Along with the tremendous water savings resulting from his deeply planted vines and subsurface irrigation technology, Wolff has discovered an “indirectly obvious” benefit - fewer weeds!

Since water and fertilizer are applied through PVC pipes that lead directly to the root systems 3-feet underground, native and noxious weeds with shallow roots can’t access these resources, and therefore can’t thrive.

Vertebrate pests have also had little success in establishing themselves in these areas since they don’t typically dig to the depths at which the roots lie.

Does Your Team Know Your Sustainable Story?

Need an easy way to help your team talk about your sustainable practices?

Download the brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Plus, we are inspiring you by sharing what like-minded brands are doing to care for the people and the planet. 

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

P.S. We have a brand-new online course coming soon! In just a few weeks, you and your staff will have access to a free 30-minute Sustainable Story training that will teach you how to explain sustainability, coach you through writing your own Sustainable Story, and show you how talking about your good work can help sell more wine. Stay tuned.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, to see the consumer segment infographic, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References:

• **SIP Smart Training online course
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet
• Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team

With the prevalence of Leaf Roll Three, Red Blotch, and other viruses, accurate and timely detection of viruses in grapevines has never been more imperative. Alan Wei, Owner and Lab Manager at Agri-Analysis LLC in Davis California explains how his lab is using state-of-the-art technologies to find new viruses. Dr. We will explain sampling strategies to help growers screen and test larger number of grapevines with a fixed testing budget.  He will also explain exciting emerging technologies such as next generation sequencing (NGS).  Currently, polymerase chain reaction (PCR) is the widely accepted method for testing for viruses. This process tests for one gene at time. Next generation sequencing allows labs to test multiple genes at a time and potentially discover unknown viruses from a single test.

References:

• 20: Dr. Mark Fuchs | Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines
• 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses
• 71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease
• Agri-analysis LLC
• Donate: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship
• Grape Program at Foundation Plant Services
• Leafroll 3 Virus (GLRaV3) AKA Grapevine Leafroll Disease in Washington
• Next Generation Sequencing (Deep Sequencing)
• PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) Testing
• Red Blotch Virus
• SIP Certified
• Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

My guest today is Alan Wei, who's owner and lab manager of Agri Analysis LLC in Davis, California. Alan, thanks for being on the show.

Alan Wei  0:10 

Thank you very much, Craig, for hosting me. And I'm very delighted to be here. And I want to use this opportunity to say hello to listeners as well.

Craig Macmillan  0:19 

So Alan, I want to have you on the show, because I want to talk about anything that's new and exciting in the world of grapevine virology, and a lot of research and a lot of development in industry with labs like your own. So, what's what's what's happening out there, what's going on with detection of viruses these days?

Alan Wei  0:36 

There is a International conference on grapevine viruses that's held every three years. So last time was 2018, in Chile. And the second, the following time was supposed to be 2021 in Greece, and unfortunately, that was canceled due to the obvious reasons, and then was supposed to be happening this year. And by the way, is not happening, and it's postponed until next year. So as a result, we have not, the researchers in this field have not been able to meet to report the latest grapevine viruses. Just to mention something that in the literature, for example, there are two or three new DNA viruses being discovered and reported. In fact, in grapevines, but their practical consequences are known. So we probably don't want to get in too much into them.

Craig Macmillan  1:33 

Maybe not, but I think this is an interesting thing because for instance, red blotch, caught everybody by surprise. And so how are these new...how are these these new viruses, how are they found, if you are looking forward, you're looking for other things, what kind of technology they're using to find this new stuff?

Alan Wei  1:49 

Typically, they're found by deep sequencing, also known as NGS Next Generation Sequencing. Researchers are always trying to look for the frontiers of why viruses virology by applying these methods and find this new viruses, but their practical impact needs to be validated, study to further be before we alarm growers. And red blotch was found a similar way. With the exception that the red blotch phenomena, and the disease was known to growers for years without the assay and the way the branch was first reported, or discovered through NGS that was, you know, the "wow" moment to growers. Yeah, we do now know what is causing this read leaf in my vineyard.

Craig Macmillan  2:43 

Tell me a little bit more about NGS, it sounds like this is gonna be an important technology for us, this deep sequencing.

Alan Wei  2:48 

Yeah, definitely. Deep sequencing is very widely used in the research community. And, when was that, in December meeting hosted by FFPS, they reported that NGS is going to be accepted by regulators like APHIS as a alternative way of testing materials coming from overseas. Which means shortened time and rapid, faster deployment of foreign important materials in in this country, or practically to growers hands. Yeah, the technology is definitely upcoming, and we're looking to possibly deploy it for routine use. We need to hear more feedback before we really do it.

Craig Macmillan  3:41 

This is obviously a very complicated technology, but like in a sense, can you explain what it is?

Alan Wei  3:48 

PCR is the way that accepted method in testing viruses or microbial in general. Compared to PCR, which tests one gene at a time, NGS would allow you to test multiple genes at a time. Because through the use of small, small redundant primers, which amplify many sometimes millions of hundreds of millions of fragments of the gene, which can parallelize sequenced with that data, and coupled with information, analysis, informatics, you can extract new new information from your sample, including new viruses, new bacteria.

Craig Macmillan  4:38 

So essentially, I've got a sample of plant material. And I run it through this NGS process, and it comes back and says, hey, there's genetic material in here that doesn't belong here. This is not grapevine, or hey, visit genetic material that's associated with some virus or something like that. And that's the flag that I get. And I get it from the whole picture. I'm not doing it like like you say gene by looking at for specific genes, I'm getting a kickback, I'm saying hey, there's there's a variety of things or whatever genes we weren't, wouldn't even thought to look for.

Alan Wei  5:10 

Exactly, exactly. You're right. And then that gene can be not not only you find genes and not belong to the grapevine, which we considered as, you know, the background gene, by further analysis of that, that special gene, you can assign them to, to pathogens, basically, different types of pathogens.

Craig Macmillan  5:30 

Gotcha. Yeah, that definitely speeds up the process a lot and makes it possible to catch things in finer net than we ever would have been able to do before. So that's pretty exciting.

Alan Wei  5:38 

Yes, def definitely.

Craig Macmillan  5:40 

Coming to red blotch, this is continues to be, you know, a very hot topic, obviously, it continues to be an issue in the field and continues to be an issue in other places. Is there anything new that we've learned regarding the Red Blotch Virus in any realm, anything about how it moves, its symptomology, new means of detection, anything like that?

Alan Wei  6:08 

I have a list of articles that just simply published during the past a couple of years, and researchers from you know, several major universities have really dived deep into the physiology, the virology, their impact on wine quality, in aspect of, of a rather large virus. They're really fascinating. From a practical standpoint, though, the progress has been less because what was reported to us few years ago remain the same, which which you know, very well. Which means rogueing, you know, rogueing your infected vines as aggressively as possible. Sourcing for clean materials as diligently as possible to prevent any viruses infecting material being planted. And once they do present in your vineyard take them out as quickly as possible. And also, although we know the Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper is the vector for red blotch. And folks don't recommend you spray against this particular insect because it is not a very efficient transmitter of the virus. Grapevine is not its preferred host. So those information were already known through talks by various speakers in the past.

Craig Macmillan  7:33 

We were talking about spread. And this is something that is absolutely puzzling to me, in years of field checking, I had never once seen this Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper. But I have talked to people who have. And they apparently are very reclusive, they will move away from you, the signs of the damage and very subtle, they do this little kind of girdling thing in the leaves. I just feel like there's just kind of be another vector. I mean, just I just feel to kind of be another vector. I mean, is there is there anything new in that world? I mean, we've identified the one but it seems kind of mysterious. And I'm thinking about the spread at the Russell Ranch, that finish and plant services ranch where we've not only identified it, but they were able to see that was spreading, attributed to the Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper, correct me?

Alan Wei  8:19 

I completely agree with you. Yeah, we don't see too many of our tree hoppers in the field. Yet spread in Russell Ranch has been phenomenal. It's more like, more exponential increase year after year, since 2018. So it is a mystery. If some of you, listeners, went to the seminar by UC Davis in early December, particularly the presentation by Professor Kent Daane, then the entomologists have been looking at a number of potential hosts. But unfortunately, they either have not been proven yet or, most of them were disproven to be a potential host. So we're still in that regard., virtually in the context of Russell Ranch, it is a complete mystery. You would think through the very aggressive management by FPS, you know, any presence over vectors were eliminated. And any source of vectors were eliminated. We have but yet they see this exponential growth in terms of infected vines, which, which stopped Russell Ranch from operation, basically.

Craig Macmillan  9:40 

Yeah, exactly. And I was actually looking at a table for one of your publications earlier today, and it looks like it went from zero to exponential like there was no nothing was detected for a couple of years or two. Then blammo! And I've been thinking about the same thing happening in other vineyards, I'm familiar with. And obviously just underlines how big of a threat red blotch is because we don't understand, you know, a lot, there's a lot we don't understand about it. So that means you got to sample. That you should rogue vines when you see them. But also you got to be sampling. Are there any is there anything new in the way of sampling protocols? Because I know that the distribution of the virus varies quite a bit between different parts of the plant different times of year and whatnot. So it's easy to miss it. What's the what's the best recommendation these days, if I wanted to test some lines, asymptomatic vines for red watch?

Alan Wei  10:31 

Yeah, we still recommend growers to sample cane materials, because in our analysis, you know, relative concentration in different parts of the vine, the cane materials has highest concentration of virus tighter level. And we also suggest growers to consider combine cuttings from different vines to make a what's called a composite sample. Therefore, they can you know, cost, testing costs can be reduced, and their testing budget can be maximized. And of course, you know, the testing objectives dictate how high your sample. Sometimes growers want to test the individual vines to really zoom in to which vine is exactly is infected, that you can only do that by testing individual vines. But the composite testing gave you the first level of screening. To see if you composite ten vines into one sample, and the entire sample would be positive. But if you want to zoom in which vine, but you're gonna want to use positive so that you can take it out, then you will do individual testing after the first round over the course screen, if you will.

Craig Macmillan  11:44 

Yeah, so the strategy would be basically like test the vineyard. And then if you find that something, then you drill down, and you can get it down to decide kind of what area where the individual vines are. That's a very, very smart technique. It's a really great idea. How sensitive are the detection techniques these days? So like, if I've got a if I have 10 vines out of 1000, and I sample and I sampled 10 vines, and I hit one of them, one of the infected ones, is that enough to show up in in the in the analysis?

Alan Wei  12:15 

Yeah, definitely. So if there's only one out of 10 cuttings is positive, and that means practically you're diluting the by 10 times, it is very much detectable.

Craig Macmillan  12:27 

Is there a lower detection limit?

Alan Wei  12:28 

Yeah, when there's a theoretical detection limit, and then there's a practical detection limit. If we do a back of the envelope calculation, a PCR method would allow you to detect one copy without the problem. But then of course, practically, there are other considerations such as whether you know, the one copy, you can sample that one copy into your PCR tube to begin with, because you know, if there's a one copy per microliter, and the way you want to use a two microliter in a PCR mix, you may or may not be able to transfer that one copy from a sample to the PCR tube to begin with. And even if you do, there may be potential inhibitors that present in grapevine material that could potentially influence your sensitivity as well. So there's a practical detection limit, and there's their theoretical detection limit issues. But overall, you know, we have found the red blotch detection to be not a problem, because typically the virus titer is high enough to be detected, even if you compounded multiple vines or cuttings into one sample.

Craig Macmillan  13:33 

That's good. That's very, very useful, very, very useful. I would love to move on to kind of other viruses because it's red blotch is not the only game in town these days. Leaf Roll complexes and Leaf Roll viruses, there's still a problem correct?

Alan Wei  13:44 

Especially Leaf Roll Three is very much that the top of our problems still and because you know the vaccine is very well known. It's very prevalent. Inoculum widespread to the percentage of vines tested positive for Leaf Roll Three that are coming through our lab is roughly about 15 percent. So Leaf Roll Three is very much prevalent. There have been some really nice talks, organized before the pandemic was by the Lodi growers group. There are some talks from including from South Africa. Recently from Red Blotch symposium where there's some presentations on Leaf Roll Three as well. So Leaf Roll Three is very much a serious problem. And growers need to be very vigilant against the Leaf Roll Three from from new planting materials to management of existing vineyards.

Craig Macmillan  14:37 

So let's say I've got a vineyard and I'm seeing some symptoms. I'm seeing some red leaves or I'm seeing some bronzing or I'm seeing something, and I've looked at the nutritional situation, I've ruled out either toxicity or deficiency. So I'm not thinking hey, you know, maybe this is a virus issue. Can you take samples of vines and just bring them to a lab and say, please help me? Can you tell me what this might be? I know we just talked about the deep sequencing. Is that, I'm not gonna say that technology. But like if I brought you some material and I said this has got a problem, how would you go about diagnosing it?

Alan Wei  15:14 

Oh, definitely. That's what we do every day. Most of our work is focused on helping growers find out what is possible cause of a programmatic vine in their vineyard. They will send in the samples, either individual vines or composite samples. We have a panel, what's called a combo panel that covers the 11 viruses, 11 major viruses. Leaf Roll Roll 1, 2, 3, 4, and two or three viruses, and of course, Red Blotch, and Fan Leaf, Pierce's. And then also Pinot Gris virus. That is the most frequently requested a panel. And by doing that panel, we typically find out if it's a virus issue.

Craig Macmillan  15:58 

That's very useful. It's very, very good to know. In relation to grapevine viruses, or just diseases overall, what is the one thing you would recommend to the listeners that they should keep in mind?

Alan Wei  16:08 

I think that you already touched on this earlier. You know, one thing is, if they see problems in the vineyard, they should consider the sample and test to validate whether they're viruses or not. And if they're considering to plant new materials, they should be very vigilant to to ask questions of the nurseries, and also do their own independent homework. And the you will be interviewing Dr. James Samp in another session. He can tell you more about how he go about sourcing for cleaning materials for his clients, which are very quality conscious.

Craig Macmillan  16:47 

Yeah, we're really looking forward to that conversation, Much like I was looking forward to this one. You know, this reminds me of something. You hear the word tighter a lot. And I don't think I fully understand what it means. I know that it's important and seems to be coming up a lot. Can you explain the concept and why it's important and what it means for us practically?

Alan Wei  17:09 

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this topic up. You know, you and I have been serving on AVF committee, Grant Review Committee for a number of years. And last week, we had our review meeting for this year, and the subject came up. You know, we can talk about different aspects of Red Blotch impact in wine quality, wine physiology, you know, readily and so on and so forth. If we want to contribute one single factor of all of this different symptomology, it would be the virus tighter level. The virus tighter means the number of particles in the vine. If the vine is only infected with a smaller number of particles, its response to the virus is going to be different than the vines that are infected with larger or large number of particles. In our experience, the virus level in different vines can be very much different. I'm not talking about different by you know, 50 percent, or two or three fold. I'm talking about several orders of magnitude. There is a poster right behind me, which you cannot see. But we did a measurement of three infected vines. One, with clean, non effective. Another one is chosen for medium Red Leaf symptom. Another one, it's very heavily Red Leaf symptom. And virus level, the obviously the non infected vine was zero. And then the mediumly infected vine was about one or 200. And then heavily infected vine, was one hundred thousand in relative copy numbers. So this tells you that you know, this virus kinda level concentration level in the vine, really affect symptomology as well as the vine performance and the barrel quality and obviously, eventually, wine  quality. If we read the scientific literature, lots of studies report Red Blotch positive, Red Blotch negative, they did not talk about the virus tighter level. That's why we were so glad to see last week one of the research proposes to study the virus tighter level on different aspects of vine physiology and berry quality. I just think it was so so so important because the virus tighter will make it make a huge difference.

Craig Macmillan  19:39 

So we may be moving from a world of infected or not, to not, to more sick, less sick.

Alan Wei  19:47 

Yes, absolutely right. That is actually how we protect ourselves against the human viruses as well. You know, our vaccine does not completely protect us from infection. But it does protect us from viruses being propagated in high numbers in our body. Therefore, our symptoms of the infection in the individual is much less. And the ability for that individual to infect others are much less. Simply because of the lower virus tighter level in an infected person and similarly is true in grapevines.

Craig Macmillan  20:24 

So plants and animals are obviously very different organisms and where an animal has an immune system plants do not, they do not have an immune defense system. Is that correct?

Alan Wei  20:35 

Yes, you're right, correct. But they do have basic defense system against foreign organisms. One of them is the RNAi system. So speaking of that, you know, the simple symptomology in response to Red Blotch, and most of it is a total response, as a result of virus infection. The RNAi defense system gets activated. For example, the accumulation of the sugar of the raisin should be gradually, in a normal process, will be gradually moving towards the berries. But in Red Blotch, in fact, in vines, they are accumulated in leaves. Not moving toward the sugars. And the same for anthocyanins. That's why we see this red leaf. And those red color should be you know, in the berries, but they're not. They get stuck together, accumulating in leaves. It's fascinating. Unfortunately, we are still at the beginning of understanding all of this. Some reports are gradually coming out.

Craig Macmillan  21:40 

And so I want to make sure that I understand kind of how this works. So there's a grapevine that becomes infected. However way. The virus is very, very tiny bits of genetic material. Unlike, unlike a bacteria, which has a cell wall. Viruses don't have that they're just genetic material. The plant recognizes that somehow. And then RNA is the material that is produced from genes, the genes or have a have a sequence and then when that is reproduced that goes out into the world as RNA. Is that right?

Alan Wei  22:17 

Yes, the RNA is inside the host. And in response to a virus infection. And the defense mechanism get activated, which involves what is called enzymes. These RNA into smaller pieces, typically 20 nucleotide long. And they are, they are the what's called the interference RNA, or RNAi which inhibit the host from propagation inside the plant.

Craig Macmillan  22:48 

This is just, we need to wrap up for time, but I just have been thinking about this for years. And that is, where do these viruses come from? Where, how do they, how do they show up? What are these plant viruses? What? Are they jumping from other plants as a mutation of one into another? Or...do we know? Do I have any idea where these things come from? Because it seems like it's not just a question of finding it. Seems it's got to come from someplace.

Alan Wei  23:14 

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. I you know, you have biology, you have a load viruses, and obviously, RNA. Some viruses are readier to evolve, to change, to mutate. And that's why we see so many different mutants in the COVID virus family. And this is Red Blotch, is a DNA base virus, which have shown less mutation. And so far, we only seen two mutants, two clay types. And they practically they don't have much difference. As far as the, you know, the origin and the evolution. We need to have folks like Mark Fuchs to answer that.

Craig Macmillan  23:55 

At Cornell. Well, that's fantastic. That's that's our future. That's where, that's where we're going. Well, I think we've covered everything. Where can people find out more about you?

Alan Wei  24:03 

We have a website, agri-analysis.com. And then they could call us or email us anytime. We're here to help growers to build a better and clean vineyard so that they can make the best wine possible for the for their clients. Yes, sorry, Craig for the background noise. I think folks who are preparing samples as we speak.

Craig Macmillan  24:26 

I want to thank you Alan, our guest today has been Alan Wei, Owner and Lab Manager at Agri-analysis, David California. Thanks so much. This is really fascinating conversation.

Alan Wei  24:35 

Thank you very much Craig for hosting me. Continue to the great job. I'm so glad you're back at the Vineyard Team. You guys. You guys are wonderful team and doing great job. I'm very pleased to be here.

Craig Macmillan  24:44 

Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

One decade ago, amidst a limited labor supply and growing New Zealand wine industry, Klima co-founders Marcus Wichkam and Nigel George set out to solve their own labor issues with mechanization. By developing a highly efficient vineyard pruning system they have removed the physically demanding portion of the job opening the opportunity to employ fewer, more highly skilled tradesworkers to perform cane selection. This mechanization has enhanced consistency, improved quality, and, with a 50 percent reduction in labor required for pruning, significantly lowered costs.

References:

• 22: Farm Labor Shortage (podcast)
• Immigration and Farm Labor with Dr. Phillip Martin (video)
• Klima.co.nz
• Klima Gen 2 (video)
• Klima Unified Wine & Grape 2020 booth B827
• Mechanical Pruning | Vineyard Team Tailgate (video)
• SIP Certified Self-Assessment
• 2/26/20: Grower Perspectives on Redevelopment: Materials, Redesign, Equipment (event)

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

[00:00:00] Customer sense of urgency around climate change is rising. In fact, 78% of global consumers feel that environmental sustainability is important.

[00:00:10] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] Customers like the idea of being sustainable and want to live more sustainable lives. While, many brands and retailers today are making eco-friendly claims. Some chalk up to little more than greenwashing. A marketing ploy designed to make products seem more sustainable than they are. Because of this consumers can feel that they can't always trust green claims.

[00:00:50] It is more important than ever for sustainable brands like you to share your sustainable story in a meaningful and authentic way.

[00:00:58] In this week's marketing tip. We share a great example. With Niner wine estates, sustainable story on the value of energy efficiency.

[00:01:06] Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end products, energy demand. From keeping buildings and tanks at proper temperatures to powering equipment and lighting energy use in the winery adds up quickly. Anticipating increasing energy demand and cost. Niner wine estates built its winery into a hillside. Because of this, the ground level on one side of the building is a couple of stories higher. Then the ground level on the other side. This wasn't a flaw in the design, rather, a strategy to allow for a gravity flow winemaking system. are brought into the facility at the top level, instead of being transferred by machines, the grapes move with gravity down the tiers of the building through each stage of the winemaking process.

[00:01:51] Another other energy efficient benefit of the hillside is that the earth surrounding the building works as a natural insulator, reducing the need for a cooling system to keep the facility at optimal temperatures. is another element that Niner wine estates utilizes large windows in the production facility and tasting rooms allow sunlight to fill these buildings during the day. When they do need electricity. The grid is not their primary source. Since 2015, the majority of their tasting room restaurant. Wineries and Wells have been powered by the sun. There are two banks of high efficient solar panels on the property. One at the top of their winery building and the other on the ground next to their tasting room.

[00:02:33] Additional solar panels can be found in the parking lot, but they aren't used to power business operations.

[00:02:39] solar banks are on top of EVs charging stations, welcoming staff and guests to plug in while they enjoy their time at nine or wine estates.

[00:02:47] Together. All of these components have a significant impact on Niner wine estates, energy efficiency. them to symbols of sustainability, achievement, sip certified and lead a certified level. Silver. Make sure you check out the show notes. For the link called stacking energy savings, sustainable story at Niner wine estates to see pictures of their energy efficient facility.

[00:03:13] here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal and it just got better. With the upgraded online course, go to the show notes, click the link titled tell your sustainable story. To sign up and start writing yours today.

[00:03:35] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

Tell Your Sustainable Story

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!      

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• 240: Stacking Energy Savings | Sustainable Story: Niner Wine Estates
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet 
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Many factors influence the number of people coming to the U.S. to work including the cost and danger of crossing the border and improved economic conditions in Mexico. Dr. Philip Martin, Ph.D. Professor of Agricultural and Resource Economics- UC Davis, discusses some of the reasons there are not enough workers to meet the demand for farm laborers in California.

References:

• Immigration and Farm Labor - Dr. Phillip Martin, (Video from 2016 Sustainable Ag Expo)
• President Trump and U.S. Migration after 100 Days - Martin
• Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Natalie Kitroeff and Geoffrey Mohan

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

The Efficient Vineyard Project uses three phases to help growers improve their farming techniques; Measure, Model, and Manage. Terry Bates, Senior Research Associate at Cornell University in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences and Director of the Cornell Lake Erie Research and Extension Laboratory, has worked with the Efficient Vineyard Project since 2015 to collect and interoperate spatial data. He knew that growers were aware that variation in the vineyard was important to manage, but they did not know how to work with spatial data. The three phases create a foundation to make data work for each grower.

The first phase, Measure, looks at how growers go about collecting data, what sensors they have, and how that data is being collected. The second phase is to Model the collected data to get the best information. And the third and final phase is to Manage through the mechanization of tasks. The program has even released a free My Efficient Vineyard software to make this process even more accessible to growers.

References:

• 55: Using Technology to Schedule Irrigation
• 77: Vineyard Pruning Technology
• Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship
• Efficient Vineyard
• High Resolution Vineyard Nutrient Management
• Mechanical Pruning in Concord with Dr. Terry Bates (Video)
• SIP Certified
• What is the Efficient Vineyard Project?

Get More

Subscribe on iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

David R. Montgomery defines regenerative agriculture as leaving the land better off and more fertile as a consequence of cultivation. David studied geology at Stanford University before earning his Ph.D. in geomorphology at UC Berkeley. Today he teaches at the University of Washington where he studies the evolution of topography and how geological processes shape landscapes and influence ecological systems.

In this research, he has defined three principals to build soil fertility; minimal disturbance, cover cropping, and growing a diversity of crops. David has studied the success of these principals in agricultural systems around the world, from subsistence farmers to large commodity crops in North America. Healthy soils support more crop growth, have less erosion, and even look and smell healthier.

The author of three books, David is a wealth of information on how soil life impacts plant productivity.

References:

• 91: Carbon Sequestration (Podcast)
• @dig2grow (Twitter)
• Dig2Grow.com
• Floor Management for Soil Health
• Dirt the Erosion of Civilizations
• Growing a Revolution
• Sustainable Ag Expo
• SIP Certified
• The Hidden Half of Nature

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. To help you communicate your sustainable practices with customers we are bringing you Marketing Tip Mondays from SIP Certified. Let’s listen in to our latest tip so you can show your customers that you share their values. 

Seasons of Sustainability: Summer

While many industries slowdown in the summer, the warmer, longer days bring a boost of activity in the world of wine. We can always expect to see an increase in tourists and locals looking to explore the wineries and vineyards in the coming summer months, all while the excitement of harvest brews behind the scenes. Here are some tips to help prepare you for the busy season ahead!

Teach your team about your practices so they can make your customers experience special. Bring your farmer or winemaker into your next team meeting to talk about what’s going on right now from conserving water by monitoring soil and plant moisture status to conserving energy in the cellar with night fans. These timely practices are also perfect for social media.

We also have two great PDF downloads you can share with your staff to help them answer the most frequently asked questions in the tasting room like “What is an example of sustainable farming?” and “How often do you water the vines?”.

On your podcast player, scroll down to the show notes to get all the resources. You can also subscribe to our Marketing Tips eNewsletter to get the latest consumer trends, branding methods, and sales tactics delivered right to your inbox.

Thanks for listening to Marketing Tips Monday from SIP Certified. Let us know what you think of these micro podcasts by sending an email to podcast@vineyardteam.org.

References:

• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Seasons of Sustainability: Summer
• SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff
• Talking to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices

RNA Interference, known as RNAi, is a biological process that leads to the silencing of gene expression.  A lot of plant viruses are RNA viruses including grapevine leafroll-associated virus and grapevine red blotch virus.  Yen-Wen Kuo, Assistant Professor in the Department of Plant Pathology at the University of California, Davis is researching ways to induce RNAi in grapevines to target virus. Growers may have heard of double-stranded RNA sprays which are intended to initiate RNAi. The challenge has been that double-stranded RNA breaks down quickly in the elements. The Kou lab is working to improve this process and look for alternatives that will have little impact on the ecology.

Resources:

• 71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease
• 131: Virus Detection in Grapevines
• Abstract: Development of Agrobacterium tumefaciens Infiltration of Infectious Clones of Grapevine Geminivirus A Directly into Greenhouse-Grown Grapevine and Nicotiana benthamiana Plants
• Kuo Laboratory – Plant Virology
• Maher Al Rwahnih, Foundation plant services
• RNA-Based Vaccination of Plants for Control of Viruses
• Yen-wen Kuo’s Google Scholar page

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing Education On-Demand (Western SARE) – Sign Up!
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Yen-Wen Kuo. And she is Assistant Professor in the Department of Plant Pathology at UC Davis. I'm Craig Macmillan, your host, and I'm very excited to have Dr. Koh here with us today. Welcome.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  0:11 

Thank you for having me.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:13 

So you've been doing some interesting work the lab on interference RNA, and also how it affects plant viruses and possibly insects in the future. Can you explain for those of us that did not take genetics like we were supposed to in college, what interference RNA is and how it works?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  0:29 

Sure. So RNA interference is a biological process in which certain types of RNA RNAs can trigger RNA interference. And then once it's triggered, it will produce specifics more RNAs, that can regulate gene expression, by degrading or binding to the target RNAs containing a homologous sequence containing a similar sequence of those small RNAs. So this is a general concept of RNA interference, we also call it RNAi is very complicated the whole process. And there are different pathways and mechanisms included in the RNA interference. RNAi is a primary and effective antiviral defense in plants, but also found in some fungi and insects and lower eukaryotes. And because of all these different mechanisms, scientists and researchers, they they work on different aspects of this mechanism for either plants or animals. And they're also looking for different potential and better ways to use RNAi for different applications.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:45 

So if I understand correctly, you have cell and there is DNA in that cell, and there's genes that code for certain things. And so the RNA is was transmitting or was carrying information from that's encoded with the gene out into the world to do something, is that a fair explanation?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  2:05 

So the genome there in plants or animals and human is their DNA genomes is DNA, and then the DNA will transcribed into RNA. And those RNA, some of the messenger RNAs can translate into proteins. So it's a how the central dogma from DNA makes RNA and then RNA makes protein. In the old days, we thought that oh, the protein is the important things because the protein can have different functional, different functions in different ways to to regulate everything in the body or in different organisms. But then afterwards, we found that actually RNAs they have many different forms and they can function at the RNA level. So it can interfere with gene expressions and many different things.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:03 

And how does this apply to plant viruses because you've done some really exciting work with Gemini viruses, I believe with grapevine virus a Tell me a little bit about that work and how that works.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  3:15 

A lot of plant viruses, they are RNA viruses, a lot of those devastating viruses in grapevines, for example, grapevine leaf roll associated virus or grapevine red blotch virus they. So grapevine leaf roll associated viruses and RNA virus and grapevine red blotch is DNA virus. So there are different types of viruses. And so my work is trying to use different viruses making them into viral vectors to induce RNAi in Grapevine plants, to target those important viruses causing diseases in the field for the grapevines. And because so for example, when the viruses they are infecting plants, they will trigger RNAi in the plant, so that plants can protect themselves from virus infection. And because of that, we're trying to develop viral vectors can trigger RNA interference to target those viruses that's causing diseases. The work I have on the grapevine Gemini virus A that GGVA is to either develop the virus into viral vectors to target RNA virus first. So that's the initial plan for us to use. GGVA the grapevine Gemini virus A target grapevine leaf roll associated viruses. So before we eventually target that virus, we have to do a lot of different tests. We need to know if the clones the constructs or DNA constructs we have of this, GGVA can actually affect Gravelines plants, so we have to do that. And then we want to see if we can develop it into viral vector to carry the sequence we want them to express in grapevines to do the work we want them to do. So then we use it to target genes in the plants to see if they can silence the genes in the plants. So then we did that, we found that yes, we can use that viral vector to silence genes in plants. And then now we try to see that if we can use this viral vector to target other RNA viruses, or other grapevine RNA viruses, because we are actually at the same time developing different viral vectors, and one of them is GBA, is grapevine virus, a another's name, it can be very confusing. GGVA is a DNA virus. GVA is an RNA virus totally different to viruses. So since we have both viruses in the lab, so first, we try to prove the concept. We use the GGVA, the DNA virus, to target the GBA wild type virus, to see if we can see any effects. The GBA infection viral titers in the infected grapevines. So this is what we're working on right now. And so eventually, we want to use this viral vector, and potentially other viral vectors to to target grapevine leaf roll associated virus. And maybe we can use it to target mealybugs too.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:35 

How are these vectors introduced to the plant?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  6:38 

We modify from the previous reports how people try to deliver those constructs the plasmids into grapevines. Most of the experiments or the assays, from before, they needed to have grapevine plants grown from in vitro, on media or from embryos. But that's really a lot of work. And it will be harder to have applications in the field. So then we develop vacuuming filtration method that we can directly vacuum infiltrate those plasmids that those DNA construct plasmids directly into the greenhouse grown grapevine plants. So those plants are propagated from the cuttings and then those plants, they are usually maybe 12 to 19 inches high above the soil when we infiltrated those plasmids into those grow vine plants. So this is an we got pretty good results, we successfully introduced those DNA constructs into the grapevine plans and those constructs can be infectious and initiate the whole the virus replicate in the grapevine.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:50 

So is this something that can be done in a nursery then with new plants? And basically, they then would come with the vector or is it something you could do in the field?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  7:57 

Yes, I think the plan is that we can introduce those plasmas in the nursery in greenhouse plants before we plant them into the field. So then the plants that's planted into the field, they can have this viral vector to protect the plants from specific viruses.

 

Craig Macmillan  8:18 

Got it. That's really neat. That's a great idea. And it's pretty cool. So that's fantastic. And in the work that you're doing so far, it sounds really exciting. And it sounds like the direction that you're kind of going in the future is with leaf roll virus that you mentioned. And then also, interaction with mealybugs you mentioned. Can you tell me more about that? What's that work all about?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  8:39 

Because this virus does GGVA and other viral vectors we're working on to a lot of viruses infecting grape vines, their phloem limited virus, so this GGVA is also phloem limited, meaning that the virus is can only infect the tissues around or in the phloem  is restricted. It doesn't go to like mesophyll cells or epidermal cells in infected plants, because mealybugs they feed on phloems. So we think if they can pick up those RNA interference signals, may be those RNA interference signals those small RNAs can target mealybugs too. So we can choose different target sequences in mealybugs. Hopefully you can see some effects for many bucks to to prevent that from transmitting viruses or have lethal effects for mealybugs. That's the plan. Hopefully we can do that. But we have to do tests to see how the efficacy and everything though it can have mealybugs, because there are previously they are different studies they use RNAi on insects, and many people prove that they can see some effects. We hope that the viral vector approach can also use for really apply this into the field for grapevine plants.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:00 

What kind of index on insects are we talking about?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  10:03 

Depends on what target genes or sequences we choose. For my first choice, I would like to have a target that can prevent the transmission of the virus by mealybug, that will be my choice. I'm not sure if it's good to kill the insects, if it's going to affect the ecology too much. So if we can make the mealybug not transmitting the virus or other diseases, I think there will be a very good first step if we can see a lower transmission rate. And and then we can see if we need to adjust from there.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:40 

That is amazing. And we haven't, yeah, the little bit of research that I did we have we do have proof of concept basically on this in other cropping systems. Is that right?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  10:55 

Yes,

 

Craig Macmillan  10:55 

Can you tell me a little bit more about that, because that might give us some some vision of where we might go in the vineyard industry.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  11:01 

So, the RNAi applications, people are already trying to do some of those works. So, one example is that before people can spray double stranded RNA into the field. So, let me talk a little bit about the introduction of why using double stranded RNA. So, there are different types of RNAs that can induce RNA interference, certain types, one of them is double stranded RNA, either double stranded RNA or the single stranded RNA, they can form into a secondary structure in folding into a structure like a hairpin RNA, those are found to be able to induce RNA interference. And there's also other things like artificial micro RNAs, there are different types of RNAs that can induce RNAi and most convenient ways to make double stranded RNA. And people have been synthesizing the double stranded RNA or using bacteria to produce those double stranded RNA and then spraying to the field to get some protection for the plants. It worked at some level, but it's just not stable enough. Although double stranded RNA is more stable compared to single stranded RNA, steroids and RNA can be degraded in the field with the sun and everything the whole environment it can be degraded, people started to look for ways like bio clay to protect the RNA, and then so, they can spray in the field. So, the RNA can last longer and cause the effects. So, those double stranded RNAs can be absorbed by the insects, they can pick up from the surface of the plant or the plant can absorb those double stranded RNA into the plants. So, those are different ways and people started to see some effects on that, but still, we have to improve those different methods delivering double stranded RNA or other types of RNA to induce RNA interference in the plant. So, they are different different approaches. So, one of that is now we are trying using virus to introduce the RNAi to induce the RNAi in the plants. So, people are trying different ways to deliver those specific RNAs to induce RNAi to target specific diseases, sometimes not just viral diseases, that they will try to target fungal disease or something else and insects. This is what many different groups they are trying to do also previously, another way is to try to make transgenic plants. So if we can make plants to express those RNAs that can induce RNAi targeting to specific diseases, then you don't need to really use any tool to the deliver because the transgenic plants itself can produce those RNAs doing to induce RNAi plants. So that's also another way that people are trying to do we call that host induced gene silencing HIGS, and the virus induced gene silencing is the way my group is working on and we call it VIGs vigs. So there are different ways that which we would use to introduce those RNAs to induce RNAi in the plants.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:31 

And right now you are at the greenhouse stage, if I understand correctly.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  14:35 

Yes.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:36 

Have you introduced mealybug into your experiments into your work yet?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  14:40 

Not yet. We are just working on targeting grapevine virus first to see the effects. So where we have to continue monitoring those tested plants to see if the effects can last long, and the efficacy and how good they can be. So now we're at four for five months, so it's still we can see the targeted virus is being suppressed in a very, very low titer. So GVA can cause some symptoms in the grapevine plants when they see the plans are infected. But we have to peel off the bark to see the symptoms, we want to see that after targeting to the GBA virus, we saw that the viral titer is very low, if we can see that, also, the symptoms is not there anymore, is now like wild type, when when the virus was infecting in the plants alone, if we can see the difference, we don't even see the symptoms there will be really great. And this part, hopefully I can collaborate with the collaborators, Maher, he's run the foundation plan services, he can help my group on this, to see that how good the effects can be using this GGVA viral vector. So after that, if we can successfully target two different viruses, then we will start to work to change the target sequence in this viral vector to target mealybugs. So that's after the virus work.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:12 

Yeah, well, that's very exciting. This is a really fascinating idea, and obviously is still relatively new. And I think it's really great that you and everybody else is working on this sounds like there's tremendous potential, and I hope that you folks continue on are able to continue on, is there one thing really related to this topic, you would tell growers one thing that you would advise them or you would educate them with?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  16:34 

I understand that there could be some concerns and maybe doubts, questioning RNAi applications in the field, because before, they already probably heard about the spray of double stranded RNA or other methods, and they saw some effects but not stable enough. So they may have some concerns or doubts, I think many scientists are trying different delivery methods that can be applied efficiently in the field. And we will do different types of tests and trials to make sure we work on any potential issues of this technology before applying them in the field and try not to affect the whole ecology or anything in the field too. And obviously, the current approaches we have are not enough to keep certain grapevine diseases, at low enough incidence. So we have to explore more potential control approaches before those diseases get worse, and adjust the ways to manage those different grapevine diseases with this changing environment. And I think hopefully, we can all work together to achieve this same goal. And I understand this is something new, I hope everyone can keep an open mind and willing to work with us to do different trials and see if we can improve different approaches to control different diseases.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:58 

Well, I hope so too. grape growers are very creative. And they're always looking for solutions to their problems that very much fit what you're describing. And it sounds to me, this could be another tool in the IPM toolbox that may not be the single solution may not be a silver bullet. But it sounds very exciting that it may play a very important role to improve the efficacy of other techniques we have, which is great. Where can people find out more about you?

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  18:22 

So because I will, setting up my lab, so hopefully I can have a lab website soon. I don't have accounts at Twitter or Instagram.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:34 

Neither do I.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  18:36 

I don't use social media a lot. So my email that people can reach me through the email. And hopefully, when this is up or in your podcast, I will have my lab website set up so people can find us our work, my lab website.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:53 

And we will have links and everything else that we can find posted on the episode page at the Vineyard Team podcast website. I want to thank you for being on the program. This was really, really interesting and is a kind of a view into the future of what's possible. Yeah. Our guest today was Dr. Yen-Wen Kuo. She is with the Department of Plant Pathology at the University of California Davis. And I want to thank you for being on the podcast.

 

Yen-Wen Kuo  19:20 

Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate this opportunity to talk about research to explain some details about our work to the course and hopefully, I answer some questions that growers might have. I look forward to in the future maybe collaborating with different people to make this thing to work.

 

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

The introductory voice and producer of this podcast, Beth Vukmanic, joined Jaime Lewis of CONSUMED in the much-awaited season nine. The CONSUMED podcast stokes candid conversation about life and flavor, ten episodes at a time. Jaime interviews eaters, drinkers, thinkers and makers across California and especially at its heart, the Central Coast. And, this past year, CONSUMED hit the top 40 podcasts about food and wine in the United States. Enjoy this rebroadcast.

An Introduction from the CONSUMED podcast:

When Beth Vukmanic came on the podcast, I was certain we'd talk only about her work with the Vineyard Team, an organization based in Atascadero, California that promotes sustainable winegrowing throughout the U.S. But Beth surprised me with all her many special fun facts: she was born in a moving VW Rabbit on a freeway in Detroit, she plays the harp professionally, and — here’s the biggie — she is a fitness superstar. No really. Beth is a hugely popular Instagram fitness instructor with a following like you wouldn’t believe. She’s kind, sharp, thoughtful and fun, and I liked her immediately. Listen to Beth talk about her background in agriculture, her longtime commitment to sustainable winegrowing, and how she likes to eat when getting home from a big HIIT workout.

References:

• Bethercize
• CONSUMED: a podcast
• SIP Certified
• Vineyard Team Staff
• Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

A successful business does more than sell a great product. Companies that embrace the Business value of sustainability treat their employees and the community with care and respect.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

This is our 200^th episode of Sustainable Winegrowing! Since 2016 we have spent over 700 hours researching the attest business trends and interviewing international experts so you can learn in the time it takes to drive in-between vineyards. Thank you to everyone who has helped make this program a success and to you for listening!

In addition to feeling good about doing good, businesses that practice corporate social responsibility also:

• Enhance customer loyalty and invite customers to share in the good feelings that come from good deeds (Forbes, 2022).
• Appeal to prospectus employees and strengthen current employees’ satisfaction and performance (CR Strategies, 2009).
• Expand their network and build their company image (Forbes, 2022).

Looking for ways to engage your brand with your community?
Listen in to learn how the whole team at Niner Wine Estates is involved in giving back.

Business at Niner Wine Estates

Sharing their prosperity with the community is one of the ways Niner Wine Estates embodies the Business value of sustainability.

Andrew Niner, President and CEO, is a board member of MUST! Charities, and believes in supporting the community through charitable donations.

Over the last 3 years, the Paso Robles, California based winery has donated an average of $245,000 annually to charities through a linked foundation.

Annual donations of $2,000 per employee go to a charity of the employee’s choice, and their own personal donations are matched by the company.

Staff are further involved in community support efforts through monthly meal preparations and servings to people experiencing food insecurity.

Niner Wine Estates actively engages in research to ensure the long-term sustainability of the natural resources they and their neighbors rely on.

They are participating in a study of local hydrology facilitated by the United States Geologic Survey. The project goal is to improve understanding of how water moves in the Adeladia Area water basin so that groundwater resources can be quantified and monitored.

Good for the Community, Good for Business

If you are looking for ways to get your brand involved with your community, here are a few ideas:

• Donate to local charity programs.
  • Looking for a charitable cause that gives back to the wine industry? The Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship helps the children of California’s vineyard and winery workers pay for higher education at trade schools and colleges. Click here to learn how to get involved.

• Contribute goods/services to local events.
• Get involved with local soup kitchens by donating food or volunteering.

People want to support businesses that share their values.
Are you talking about how your brand values protect the people and the planet?

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, download the worksheet, watch the videos, and you are ready to tell your Sustainable Story!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Business: Niner Wine Estates
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards
• SIP Smart Training online course
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print
• Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic
• What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Want to practice regenerative agriculture? Daniel Rath, Agricultural Soil Carbon Scientist at Natural Resources Defense Council recommends that you start by asking what you want to regenerate. Beneficial practices including integrating livestock, crop rotations, cover cropping, minimizing tillage, increasing diversity, improving soil health, adding organic matter, and reducing external inputs will vary site to site.

A long-term study found that these practices improved above and below ground biodiversity, increased water storage and infiltration, bolstered resilience to climate change, increased carbon and organic matter storage, and, impressively improved human health.

Listen to the end to learn how soil metagenomics has the potential to not only tell us what is living in the soil but how the organisms interact.

Resources:        

• 231: Stacking Regenerative Practices to Create a Healthy Vineyard
• Daniel Rath
• Daniel Rath on Google Scholar
• Daniel Rath on National Resources Defense Council (NRDC)
• Healthy Soils Playlist (podcast play list)
• NRDC Regenerative Agriculture 101 page
• Soil Biodiversity in California Agriculture
• What the Soil Can Teach Us | Daniel Rath | TEDxBelmopan
• Wine grape grower perceptions and attitudes about soil health

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

[00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Daniel Rath. He is a soil scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council. And today we're going to be talking about regenerative agriculture. Thanks for being on the podcast, Daniel.

[00:00:10] Daniel Rath: Thanks a lot, Craig. I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:13] Craig Macmillan: We've been trying to find folks to talk about regenerative agriculture because it's a real buzzword right now.

[00:00:18] And it's a buzzword in the vineyard industry, but it's not vineyard specific. This is applying to all sectors of agriculture and globally. This is a big concept now. So that's inspiring and drawing a lot of people, uh, in different directions. But I get different definitions of it. What regenerative agriculture?

[00:00:37] Daniel Rath: Well, first of all, I'll say it's not really surprising that you get a different definition depending on who you talk to because, you know, regenerative agriculture really hasn't been like very specifically defined yet the way I think about it. Part of the reason it's so hard to define is that it's really more of a philosophy and an approach to land management.

[00:00:59] And so, you know, it's taking into acknowledgement the fact that agricultural systems have this complexity. And instead of trying to reduce that complexity, we lean into it. We see what advantages we can get from it. It's a holistic approach. You know, it doesn't just necessarily focus on the environmental impacts, but what are the social impacts?

[00:01:18] What are the economic impacts of agricultural systems? Looking at things like local food systems and connecting farmers to consumers, but also how do we increase soil health? How do we reduce pests and diseases? It's funny. You should bring it up now. The state of California. Just finished a process in of defining regenerative agriculture for their legislative effort.

[00:01:40] Craig Macmillan: Oh

[00:01:41] Daniel Rath: Yeah, there's a draft definition out there have been numerous listening sessions The next one is on august 22nd, but I was part of that committee that tried to like Capture this sort of like ephemeral philosophy and like nail it down without hopefully killing it.

[00:01:57] Craig Macmillan: Uh, and to put a timestamp, the date of this interview is August of 2024.

[00:02:03] So this is new to that point. We'll see how that develops from here. Which is pretty cool, but no, I was not aware of that. That's pretty, pretty interesting. What are some of the specific practices somebody might use? So, philosophically, I'm in alignment. I want to build and protect my soil. I want to protect my community.

[00:02:20] I want to have healthier plants. What are some of the techniques that folks are using around the world to do this?

[00:02:26] Daniel Rath: Well, I will answer your question with a saying that my PhD advisor used to tell me every time I walked into her office, which was that, you know, what is your goal? What is the question that you're trying to ask, right?

[00:02:37] Part of the reason that regenerative agriculture does not have one set definition is that it's going to look very different. different depending on where you are. A regenerative agricultural system in a place that is facing a lot of restrictions on water, low soil organic matter, the practices you use there are going to look very different than say if you have regenerative agriculture in a place that has regular rainfall, has a lot of soil organic matter, very active soils.

[00:03:02] I would say that some of the most commonly mentioned practices are things like integrating livestock into perennial systems, cover crops, crop rotation, increasing the diversity on farm systems, reducing tillage, basically all of these practices that increase soil health, because really increasing soil health is at the the core of what it means to sort of regenerate a plot of land.

[00:03:29] But if you're talking about specific practices, you kind of have to think like, well, what am I trying to regenerate? What are the goals that I want to get out of it? One other interesting topic is the idea of reducing external inputs, not eliminating them entirely, but reducing dependence on things like fertilizers and pesticides, seeing how a that can result in cost savings for farmers, but also Relying on the natural complexity of the system to provide those benefits.

[00:03:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's always been one of the tenants of sustainable farming is to reduce the number of off farm inputs and reduce the number of farm outputs other than the crop, and that includes things like pollution, erosion, whatever, um, and try to develop a system that's stable in and of itself. Um, and it sounds like there's some things that can contribute to that.

[00:04:18] Um, what about composting? That's another popular topic.

[00:04:21] Daniel Rath: Composting, I forgot to mention that composting really adding organic matter to the soil. A lot of the systems that we've developed over the last few decades are very focused on adding nitrogen, which is important. Nitrogen is a really big limiting nutrient, but we've learned that adding nitrogen on its own is not enough.

[00:04:38] You have to add carbon in there. You have to add other micronutrients that might not be contained in your typical fertilizer mixture. And so yeah, adding compost is a really great way adding organic matter residue crop.

[00:04:53] Craig Macmillan: Again, the inclusion of animals seems to be, um, pretty consistent across different definitions, including mobile cropping systems.

[00:05:00] In permanent crops that can be a little tricky. So like in vineyards, I have heard of folks that were grazing goats and sheep in season for the most part. Folks will plant a cover crop in the winter and then maybe they'll come through with some sheep or some goats in the springtime. I guess my question is, when I read other things and they talk about having animals as part of the system, I see like herds of cattle, which are generating a lot of manure.

[00:05:25] And I can go, yeah, I, I bet that's doing a lot, but your smaller ruminants, in your opinion, I mean, can they contribute enough in a, in a, a seasonal, uh, past to, to make a difference?

[00:05:39] Daniel Rath: Yeah, this, that's a really good point. I think the short answer is, yeah, I think they do. And so the example you gave is, I think the one I would have used, right, is that planting cover crops in between these sort of like, vines that are there for a long time, and then using ruminants to terminate those cover crops and to convert it into manure and urine, which was a great source of nitrogen.

[00:06:00] When I was at UC Davis doing my PhD, we had a couple experiments on sheep terminating cover crops and goats terminating cover crops. And you could see the benefits in the soil, as long as you had those like livestock ruminants being on the plot.

[00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: That leads to another question. You know, I've got the philosophy now.

[00:06:19] I believe in the philosophy. I believe that I can actually improve the soils. One of the things I've always been a little suspicious of with regenerative agriculture is the idea of regeneration. I have a hard time kind of making sense of that in my mind in agricultural systems because things are leaving.

[00:06:36] And certain crops are not big miners. Wine grapes are kind of famous for not really mining the soil that much and they can grow in very poor soils Doesn't mean you don't want to build those soils, but if I'm looking to detect what we would call regeneration, what kinds of Variables might I be looking at and what are the kinds of things that I might actually be able to get some metrics on?

[00:07:00] Where I can say yes, this program seems to be working This is making a difference or I'm not seeing the results that I would like Maybe I should make a shift and try something different

[00:07:09] Daniel Rath: Yeah, that's also a really good question. So I think there are actually two really interesting questions in what you just said.

[00:07:15] The first one is, what do you measure? And again, it depends on your question, but very often the things that we will measure will be things like soil organic matter, right? We will be looking at measurements such as nutrient balance. So how much nitrogen is soil's organic matter, what are the nitrate and phosphorus levels in the soil for wine grapes?

[00:07:36] I know you don't want it to be like too fertile because it is good to stress those grapes out a little bit to get a high quality product. You look at things like drainage and water storage. If you see better infiltration on plots, if you don't see water ponding quite as much. One thing that is becoming more common is tracking microbial indicators, right?

[00:07:56] And so part of the reason that we do that is that microbes are like early indicators. They will change faster than the soil organic matter content. And so they can give you an idea of where you're headed and whether or not it's a direction you want to be heading in. I can, you know, apply to stuff like pest and disease too.

[00:08:15] Craig Macmillan: This is a great one because I've been working on this for the last couple of years. What am I looking for? I, uh, there's a bunch of different tests that you can do. There's a bunch of different things you can look at. If I'm trying to get a sense of what's happening with the cell microbiome, what kind of testing might I be interested in doing?

[00:08:30] What kinds of things might I specifically be looking for?

[00:08:34] Daniel Rath: There have been a lot of advances in the last, you know, decade or so looking at this. One of the biggest areas that there have been advancements is tracking the incidence of pests and diseases, right? And so, you know, that is a really good one. If you're worried or, you know, concerned about a specific pest, there are often really good methods to test for that.

[00:08:52] You can also be looking at biological tests that look at functions of interest. So say your goal is to reduce nitrogen application on your plot. There are measurements that you can make of nitrogen release from organic matter by microbes and that will give you a really good idea or, you know, a fairly good idea of maybe how much nitrogen this soil is already supplying.

[00:09:17] California is also really interested in this. So another thing, there's a soil biodiversity report that came out about a year ago in which the CDFA asked us this very question. They were like, if we were going to measure soil biology across California for a number of different purposes, what would we do?

[00:09:32] We had 15 scientists that have really been working on this for a long time. We all sat down and like, how do we capture the thought process and thinking that goes into this? into selecting the right microbial indicator because there are a lot of them and they're not all easy to interpret.

[00:09:47] Craig Macmillan: Are those recommendations out there now?

[00:09:49] Daniel Rath: I would say the, the report is out and in the report we, you, we have a couple examples. We're really hoping that the California Department of Food and Ag will sort of expand on those recommendations for more like, sort of like a targeted approach. Really what we did is we used that nitrogen example as an example.

[00:10:10] It's like this is how you would do it, but really the devil is in the details. What is the specific area you're looking at? What is like the question you're looking to answer? The biodiverse report has at least like the thought process, what are the things you should be looking for?

[00:10:25] Craig Macmillan: So we've been talking about kind of like more short term.

[00:10:27] What about long term? You have some experience, I believe, in long term agricultural research. Like, I think you did a study that was like a 25 year retrospective, if you will, of the health of a particular farm. In the long term, in the longer range, What kinds of benefits should we expect? We've talked about pest and disease resistance, maybe water status.

[00:10:51] What kinds of slow changes might we be looking for that we might see that would give us some confidence that this is working?

[00:10:58] Daniel Rath: Sure. I mean, this is an example of why long term experiments are so great because. They're the only really way for us to get at this question. But you can expect things like improved biodiversity on, um, especially above ground biodiversity, below ground biodiversity.

[00:11:15] That is a process that takes a long time. You can see things like improved water storage, improved water infiltration. You can see You know, if you're talking about the ultimate long term metric resilience, right, how do our agricultural systems respond to the climate changes that are already occurring and, you know, building that resilience means relying on this like complex biological network that really sustains our plants right now.

[00:11:46] Increased carbon and organic matter storage is another really good one. And so, you know, over time you see all of these environmental benefits and along with that comes social benefits. We see improved human health. We see improved connectivity between farms and the communities nearby. Improved sort of farm worker health and safety.

[00:12:07] All of these things are a little bit longer term, but they are all one of some of the goals and some of the benefits we see from regenerative systems.

[00:12:16] Craig Macmillan: I want to drop back to one of the practices because I've talked about this quite a bit with folks. I want to get your take on it. No till or minimal till.

[00:12:24] Or, uh, I talked to one person that said, uh, avoid excessive tillage. And the question that came back was, what the heck is that? What's excessive? You know, what, if I drag the disc through here one time, is that excessive? And this may apply to other crops that you've worked with. What role does tillage have in this process, in these systems?

[00:12:45] Because one school of thought that I'm familiar with is, okay, we grow these cover crops, we terminate them with sheep, it's great, but we may still want to incorporate that material into the soil. So that it breaks down and gets in there. Then there's another school of thought that says, No, don't do that.

[00:13:03] Don't touch it. Leave it alone. Let the system do what it normally does. And then there's a third school of thought that's like, well, I can't do that forever. Floors get too bumpy. Um, things need to be reset. Or I need to plant cover crops. So I need to set a seed bed. And again, you can draw from other cropping systems on this.

[00:13:21] What is your feelings about the effect of tillage on the soil microbiome and soil health discrimination?

[00:13:26] Daniel Rath: No, no till has been a really hot topic for quite a while. It came about when the NRCS was first started looking to reduce the impacts of a dust bowl and realizing that tillage was over tillage was a major cause of that.

[00:13:41] And so when you are looking at no tillage, there are very clear benefits. There's increased plant root presence, decreased erosion, better soil structure formation, a potential for better infiltration. But you have to wear that against the. benefits of tillage. I mean, it has very clear benefits too. It helps to keep weed and pest populations under control.

[00:14:03] It makes it a little bit easier, especially in annual cropping systems for roots to establish. Like you said precisely, it's a better way for incorporating organic matter into the soil. My point of view is that I think tillage is a valuable tool in the farmer's toolbox, right? And that what is over tillage is going to really depend on where you are.

[00:14:24] If you're on a slope, probably less tillage is better because again, you don't want that top soil to be washed off. If you're on sort of like a flat plain and you know, you know, you're tilling to establish a crop, then it's probably not a big deal to have one or two tillage passes, at least from the erosion standpoint.

[00:14:41] What we do know is that no till has also been recommended as a way to increase soil carbon. There's still, I think, a little bit of back and forth on that. At least we have seen is that no till increases soil carbon at the top. Part of the soil really doesn't increase at the bottom. So it's more of a redistribution of carbon again There are really clear benefits to tillage and you know There's a reason that people have been doing it for a long time

[00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: kind of what I'm hearing I think this is a really great message is it's another tool.

[00:15:11] It's a tool that we don't have to throw away But it is one that we should think about how we use it. I've, I've actually started to think about tillage the same way I think about, uh, pesticides and fertilizers. Where it's, it's a question of what benefit am I going to get from this? Do I need to do it?

[00:15:28] Are there other things that I could do? And then you put that all into your calculator in your brain and, and try to sort it out. And I've had some very interesting conversations as how different people kind of sorted those things out. So I think that's a great point. That leads me to another question that I just thought of.

[00:15:42] And so the role of synthetic fertilizers, for instance. The synthetic fertilizers have been pointed to, and I think accurately so, as driving land degradation in many cases, especially the overuse of nitrate based fertilizers. You also have environmental impacts in terms of pollution, potentially. Is there a role for conventional fertilizers in regenerative agriculture?

[00:16:05] Daniel Rath: Yeah, well, that's a real hot button topic there. Yeah.

[00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: Hey, we go, we go for deep water on the show. Inquiring minds want to know. Hey,

[00:16:16] Daniel Rath: that's, that's a real good question. Honestly, that's a question that I has been taking up a lot of my professional time recently. Like you said, it's not a secret. We are seeing a lot of negative environmental impacts from Over application of fertilizers that includes nitrate pollution in groundwater that applies to pesticides as well.

[00:16:36] You know neonic pesticides have had major problems with insect populations. I think that exactly What you said you need to sort of weigh the costs and benefits Of these like particular practices and you know In my work in my phd talking to farmers the sort of farmer calculus that occurs in like You know, in the minds of the folks that I work with is so complex.

[00:17:00] There are so many factors that you have to balance. One thing to be aware of is that we are applying too much nitrogen fertilizer now, and that's pretty clear from like the negative environmental impacts that we've seen. And so it's less of an idea of like. Like how do we eliminate nitrogen fertilizer and more like how do we make sure that that fertilizer gets into the plant?

[00:17:23] You know, how do we match that fertilizer application to what the plant actually needs instead of over applying, right? How do we keep it on the plot? Because it is expensive. No one wants it to be running off into the environment,

[00:17:36] Craig Macmillan: right?

[00:17:37] Daniel Rath: One of the things that has really come across to us is when we talk to folks about nitrogen fertilizer application, there are yield benefits, but very often it's also a risk management strategy.

[00:17:50] You want to apply enough nitrogen fertilizer so that if conditions are ideal, you can take advantage of them. Really and truly, there have got to be better, less environmentally intensive solutions. impactful risk management strategies. You know, that includes looking at the way that we incentivize crops, looking at the way that we handle crop insurance, looking at the crop choices.

[00:18:13] If you're in a area that has a lot of potential for agricultural runoff, it may be better to grow crops that do not require as much nitrogen, corn is very greedy, or to put systems in place that reduce that nitrogen runoff, cover cropping, riparian buffers, All of these things are like great ideas to get to the underlying goal, which is reducing the need for nitrogen fertilizer.

[00:18:39] Craig Macmillan: That's perfect. Gosh, we just keep getting more variables, don't we?

[00:18:42] Daniel Rath: Oh my gosh, I assure you that's

[00:18:46] Craig Macmillan: And speaking of more variables, I want to switch topics now. This is great, background graded by some regenerative agriculture. I know that I now have a better sense of what the philosophy and the practices are.

[00:18:56] However, you've also worked in the area of soil metagenomics and metagenomes. And this has come up in other interviews that I've done around soil health with soil microbiologists. What is soil microgenomics and where are we at and where are we going and what can we do with this and what's all the exciting stuff coming down the pipeline?

[00:19:19] But first of all, what, what is it?

[00:19:21] Daniel Rath: When you talk about soil metagenomics, in a teaspoon of soil, I'm sure you've heard the statistics somewhere, right? In a teaspoon of soil, there's like a billion microbes and like so much fungal hyphae. And inside each one of those cells is DNA. That are basically the instructions for life for those different cells.

[00:19:40] What we do in soil metagenomics is that you extract the DNA from a soil sample. And then the most complex, insane puzzle you've ever seen. We try to reassemble them, right? Right. And so like that is only possible because of the advances we've made in computing over the last few decades. And I get, you know, the national labs have really like pushes forward.

[00:20:03] You need a really powerful supercomputer to do it. Once you've done that, you have this sort of unprecedented ability to glimpse what is happening in the soil at a scale that we've never been able to before. And so that's part of the reason that people are really excited about it is because it gives us a window into like this.

[00:20:24] previously unknown black box of how microbes work and interact in the soil. I worked on that during my PhD at UC Davis, looking at like how metagenomes changed in farming systems over 25 years.

[00:20:37] Craig Macmillan: So I have always been looking for the work that I do, looking for what are the variables that I can measure and what's going to give me a number that's going to tell me what's going on.

[00:20:46] At one point I hit upon soil respiration, and I was talking to a soil ecologist and she said, well that's fine, but that tells you how much life is there, but it doesn't tell you whether it's good guys or bad guys. And then dove in to a whole nother level of, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about, oh yeah, you're right.

[00:21:05] Oh, and then those guys prey on those guys, and then this happens over here. Oh wow, yeah, you're right. And then I got kind of hooked on the um, The Haney test, which is, I think, kind of falling out of fashion now, which again, people were throwing rocks at that, you know, and I think that when Haney first came up with that, that was something, it was like, we need something, and it would prove to be useful, I think, but I don't think that's as popular or gives us the kind of dimension that we really need anymore, at least that's what I'm told.

[00:21:34] With metagenomics, we're going to be able to tell not simply quantities, but we're going to be able to tell possibly down to the level of genus, maybe even species of who's, who's down there, which could be really, really important because like pseudomonas, for instance, there's certain pseudomonas that are, um, pathogenic and there's others that are beneficial.

[00:21:56] And so we kind of need to figure out who's who and what's what is, is that on the horizon? Maybe it's 10 years out or more, but is that on the horizon?

[00:22:04] Daniel Rath: Probably a little further out than that. A

[00:22:06] Craig Macmillan: little further out? Okay.

[00:22:07] Daniel Rath: I'll try and give you an example here. So, one of the things that we get when we pull out all this DNA is we get sort of relative abundances of different types of organisms, right?

[00:22:18] It's sometimes quite difficult to get to the absolute abundance of organisms because We're really looking at, like, proportions of DNA, but that doesn't really tell you, like, are there, like, massive amounts of this organism present in the soil. You just have a relative idea. When it comes to metagenomics, there's a lot of promise in being able to say, Oh, look, we've seen these genes that, like, allow you to fix nitrogen.

[00:22:43] And we found these genes that are associated with these, like, pests. And that's a really good idea, a really good indicator of, like, But there's another level to it. And that's really, I think what one of the like exciting parts is, is that it's not just the genetic potential that matters. It's the interactions between organisms that is quite hard to pull out.

[00:23:05] So to your example, you could have pseudomonas, you could have quite high levels of pseudomonas. Do you have a. predator that keeps those pseudomonas populations under control, right? Because if you do, then you might not be seeing a lot of disease, like presence in the soil, even though you have like relatively high amounts of it.

[00:23:25] And so understanding these interactions is sort of the next level in actually getting practical, actionable information out of these metagenomes. And we're, we're still. Teasing that apart. So really, when I talk about metagenomes, it's about potential. What is the potential for things to happen? But it does not actually mean that is what is going to happen.

[00:23:46] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. And so the commercialization of this technology is quite a ways out.

[00:23:51] Daniel Rath: Yeah. I mean, there are companies that are working on it right now. Again, this, it's a, this innovation is really, we're going to need to like be iterating towards success here, but really a lot more sort of research and work is required, especially on these interactions, thinking about like how they fit together.

[00:24:10] And I personally think that it's a useful indicator. I've given a talk on these like. Soil test before the real power hard part comes when you're trying to interpret right when you have a scale that says like based on these abundances There's X percent chance that you will have a disease or X percent chance that you will be able to cycle nitrogen better That's really hard to like say at this point in my opinion,

[00:24:35] Craig Macmillan: right?

[00:24:35] Right. Well, at least we're moving in the right direction. I think

[00:24:37] Daniel Rath: we absolutely are and honestly The, the best thing to compare metagenome test is your own soil five years ago. It gives you an unprecedented look into how your soil has changed and progressed depending on whatever practices you've applied.

[00:24:51] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. Going back to regenerative agriculture, is there one thing, piece of advice, idea, one thing that you would like growers to take away on this topic?

[00:25:02] Daniel Rath: Yeah, I think that one main thing is that this is not just about one specific environmental impact. This is about thinking about how we farm, how we grow food, what is our relationship To both farm ecosystems and agricultural ecosystems.

[00:25:21] You know, I think there's this idea that natural ecosystems and agricultural ecosystems, they cannot coexist. And I think that over time we're starting to see that maybe that's not true. We can encourage biodiversity. We can encourage sort of these complex natural processes on farms. And indeed they make the farms more resilient.

[00:25:41] more productive, we get more benefits from that. And so just in a way that like natural ecosystems evolve, I think that farming systems are also evolving and growing. And to us, regenerative agriculture is about bringing all farmers, no matter where they are, along on this journey towards sort of more sustainable, environmentally safe agro ecosystems.

[00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: That's exactly the word I was going to use, is uh, is we think more about an agroecosystem as part of a much larger system, um, which is what ecology is kind of all about. We can look at the ecology of a pond, but then we can also look at what role that pond plays in the forest, and we can look at how the forest plays in the landscape and we can just keep going depending on what level you want to do it at.

[00:26:27] And I think looking at our farms as part of a larger ecological system and an ecological system in and of itself also I think is a huge philosophical move. Absolutely right. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:26:39] Daniel Rath: The NRDC website is a great place to start. We have a number of different resources. We published a report on regenerative agriculture where we interviewed farmers from across the U S at least for California specific stuff.

[00:26:50] The California department of food and agriculture, again, is, has this regenerative agriculture definition process that's being carried out. As of this date in August, 2024, I also have a personal website that I update infrequently.

[00:27:04] Craig Macmillan: Well, there's something on there. Yeah. So, yeah, and if you can share those links with us, that would be fantastic.

[00:27:10] Our guest today has been Daniel Rath. He is a soil scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council. Thanks for being on the podcast, Daniel.

[00:27:18] Daniel Rath: Hey, absolutely. It's been quite a pleasure, Craig.

 

Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

All winegrowers are on the same quest to find virus negative plant material. James Stamp, President at Stamp Associates Viticulture, Inc, works with his clients to find the highest quality grapevine plants to establish new vineyards. This thorough process to find virus negative material includes partnering with nurseries that previously delivered good product. There is oversight through all stages of production from testing material to harvesting and grafting, from production to delivery, and the final selection of plants for the vineyard site. The number one tip to get quality grapevines is to pay attention to where the plant material is coming from, have great communication with the nursery, and sample the finished product for Red Blotch and Leaf Roll Three.

References:

06-03-2022 | Roller Crimper Demo Tailgate, King City, CA (Event registration)

20: Dr. Mark Fuchs | Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines (podcast)

49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses (podcast)

71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease (podcast)

131: Virus Detection in Grapevines

Grape Program at Foundation Plant Services

Grapevine propagation: principles and methods for the production of high-quality grapevine planting material

Leafroll 3 Virus (GLRaV3) AKA Grapevine Leafroll Disease in Washington

Red Blotch Virus

SIP Certified

Sourcing Grapevines for a New Vineyard

Stamp Associates Viticulture, Inc.

Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022

Virus Disease Guide in Grapes

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

My name is Craig Macmillan and I am your host, as always. Today we have with us James Stamp, who is president of Stamp Associates Viticulture, Incorporated. And thanks for being on the show, James. I'm really looking forward to this.

 

James Stamp  0:13 

Yes, thanks for having me, Craig, I'm looking forward to it as well.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:15 

So James, you have a interesting company. And you've had an interesting career over the years. But right now, your company does a number of very interesting kind of things in three different areas. And what I was hoping to do is talk about each of those individually in a little bit of detail and have you explain kind of how those things work. First of all, you folks do independent analysis and quality control for grapevine nursery stock production. Tell me more about that.

 

James Stamp  0:39 

Our clients hire us to find the highest quality grapevine plants for establishing new vineyards. And what we do is to select nurseries that we have previous experience with in terms of delivering good product. And nurseries, where we have previously inspected and tested their increased box and the increase box, as you know, are the rootstock and science sources of materials for propagation. So we, we put together a proposal for our clients to provide the best quality of plant materials that we can. And then we get involved with discussing with nurseries, which materials are best to use. We oversee the testing of those materials, we oversee the harvesting and grafting of those materials. We oversee the production of those materials, that particular nurseries, and we oversee the delivery and final selection of those plants to the vineyard sites. And as part of our, our understanding with our growers, we are available to look at those plants during the course of the vineyard development. We'd like to be there to see how our plants grow. Once they're planted,

 

Craig Macmillan  1:54 

A grower will come to you and say I'm planting a vineyard, I want to make sure that it's virus free, or disease disease free, I would imagine. And you folks start at the very beginning, you go out and look at the blocks where the first cuttings are going to come from the good gonna go into those plants. Is that right?

 

James Stamp  2:12 

Yes. When I first started doing this, in 1999, I was asked to look at finished product. In other words, vines that had already been grafted, already been grown in the field, already been growing the greenhouse. And at that point, it's very difficult to have any real control over the quality of the finished product. So it seemed to me like a good idea to start with the source materials that we use to graph the vines and to make sure the source materials, the root stock on the scion, are of high quality and disease, pathogen test negative and that's exactly how we start by finding the source materials for the production of grape vine plants ultimately to be planted in the vineyards.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:53 

Obviously, if someone's going to plant, let's say hundreds of 1000s of vines, we're talking about hundreds of 1000s of cuttings. Is that right?

 

James Stamp  3:03 

Hundreds of 1000s of vines. Well, yeah, we're talking a lot of cuttings and in generally speaking from an increased block or rootstock increase block, you might expect to get say 100 cuttings from every mother vine or every increased block vine 100 cuttings for the rootstock. And for the scion material, the Cabernet, the Viognier whatever it might be, you're probably going to get somewhere from 50 buds or 50 cuttings per vine up to maybe 500 cuttings per vine for some very vigorous clones such as maybe Pinot Noir or Cabernet, Sauvignon Blanc we sometimes see 500 cuttings per vine.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:40 

How many samples are you taking how many pieces of wood are you taking in? What are you testing them for and how?

 

James Stamp  3:47 

We with the advent or the discovery of Red Blotch, it became clear that the only way to produce vines that are free of Red Blotch disease is to test every plant that is used as a source of materials for that for that finished product. So if you do the math, nurseries will graft anywhere from 1.5 times, one and a half times to two times the amount of vines per finished product. So if you have an order for 10,000 vines, they might refer 20,000 vines. So we have to test enough mother vines or increase block vines which is the correct term, to provide us with 20,000 rootstock cuttings and 20,000, say Cabernet Sauvignon buds. Let's say you've got just for example, a Cab Sauvignon plant that's giving you 500 buds per vine and you want 20,000, you want 20,000 bugs, then you've got to test 40 plants to get 20,000 buds. 40 times 500 is 20,000. Depending on the size of the plant, if its is a large established plant, we want to take more cuttings per vine than if it's a smaller plant, because viruses are not evenly distributed within the mother vine or the increase block vine. So if it's a larger vine, we might take four pieces per vine. If it's a smaller vine we might take two pieces per vine. So that's roughly sort of math that's involved in deciding how many samples we take. We are taking 1000s of pieces of cutting and putting them together into samples that we then test for a range of pathogens. And generally speaking, there are roughly 15 or so, 16 pathogens that fall on our testing list. And they include all the common viruses, the leaf roll viruses, the vitiviruses, A, B, D, Red Blotch virus, Fan Leaf virus, we also test the Pierce's Disease, we also test for Agrobacterium Vits, which is the causative agent of crown gall disease, which is a bacterium. And our pathogen panel depends on really the program that we're involved with. If we're, if we're working with materials where we have a good history of testing, we might adjust the panel slightly. It also depends on the budget, if a client has a limited budget, then we will focus on viruses that we think we'll find or viruses that we have found in the past. So but generally speaking, we have a pathogen panel of roughly 15 to 16 organisms that we look for routinely.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:27 

And in so it sounds like you're using a composite sample, like you may do a composite sample of rootstock and the comparison sample of scion.

 

James Stamp  6:34 

Exactly, yes.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:36 

Does that composite sample comprise a sample from every one of the vines involved?

 

James Stamp  6:43 

Yes.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:44 

So when I get a result back, I can be confident that all the plants that provided the rootstock or the scion are clean.

 

James Stamp  6:52 

Well, clean is, you know, clean is a word that you will not get anybody, you know, real scientists to use. Okay, these are all virus test negative. It's, you know, it's hard to prove a negative, but the sampling that we do shows that the vines, or the pieces of tissue that we've tested are negative for the virus. And they know and we were sampling for a wide range of pathogens, but it's to say it's clean, to say it's 100% guaranteed not to have viruses. It's something that people don't do because you're it's really, it's really hard to prove a negative. But we've we're sampling, we're sampling every plant and every plant is testing negative. And therefore, we can assume that those plants do not contain the viruses that we're testing for or the pathogens that we're testing for.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:35 

Excellent. I think that's a really important distinction to make various negative versus cleaning in quotes. So that's the so the points along the way, we've got the rootstock, we've got the scion, is there inspection, testing, investigation as we go through the grafting process and the callusing process and the greenhouse process?

 

James Stamp  7:53 

Well, really the first, the first step in the process to produce high quality plants is to visually evaluate the scion increase blocks before you test them. So there's no point in spending a lot of money on testing plant materials that don't look good. So we go to the nurseries that we have orders with for the following year, or the year after that. We go to those nurseries and look at their scion increased blocks in October. So we look in October 2021. At the Cab 47, or the Cab 30 or the Sauvignon Blanc 01 or the Pinot Noir, you know 777, and we find contiguous rows and contiguous sets of vines that look healthy. If they look good. In other words, they don't look like the disease, they don't look like they're struggling to grow. Because if a plant is looking diseased, or looking like it's having a hard time growing, that would not be the sort of material you want to select for high quality vine production. So if we see any issues with the vines during our October walkthrough, then we do a couple of things. One, well the nursery is usually with us so the nursery will then want to check those vines and test them or remove them, test them and remove them if necessary, to see if they are virus or there's something else wrong with them. And then once we find clean vines, then we will test them. So the first thing to do is find the clean plants, and this is done in October. Test them. We tag the plants so that we make sure we put our labels on plant materials that we want to graft. And then we see those materials getting harvested and then moved into cold storage and then we're at the nursery when those materials are grafted. So that we can see that the materials we tested and viewed in October and November are now actually on the grafting bench at the nursery February and March of the following year.

 

Craig Macmillan  9:47 

That's impressive. That is very impressive. Yeah, and I'm assuming you've had good luck with it as it sounds like you couldn't be any more fastidious.

 

James Stamp  9:55 

You know, it was really an eye opening moment,  I think for me, when Red Blotch became a problem, as you know, it was in late 2012. And we have a lot of plant materials that we were to test for Red Blotch because the new PCR test was made available at that point in time. And it was clear that sampling increased block vines, on a sort of a random basis, sampling the plants in the nursery, the nursery vineyard that gives you the cuttings, not sampling every plant, but sampling say, even I'd say 95% level of confidence with a 5% confidence interval, you're still only sampling a very small amount of plants that are going to be used to give you the cuttings that you need. So the only way to detect the virus, which might only be present in a few plants, but if you're getting 400 cuttings from those one or two plants are infected, you're actually you know, producing a lot of virus that can be contaminated. So the only way to do it is to test every plant.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:53 

Right. And then is there some additional quality control once they come out of the nursery for you?

 

James Stamp  10:59 

I mean, nursery production is a very primitive craft, if you will. It's still very, very basic. It's basically putting rootstock and science together and allowing them to graft and providing good conditions for that. And what they want is they want to first of all the cuttings should be have high carbohydrate reserves. So they're strong cuttings. They actually have a good wood to pith ratio. So a small amount of pith, a good amount of wood, which represents good carbohydrate reserves. They should be grown in a way that produces cuttings that are good for grafting rather than growing these cuttings in a way that is good for fruit production. And so we want to see what's going on right from the very beginning. So I actually just gave a presentation the other day. And my first slide on the presentation says that what does every grower want? Every grower wants, or what they really want is no surprises. And that is high quality vines being available, in the right amount, on time and of good quality. Because the last thing a grower wants is to hear from a nursery when they call up and say, you know what, my 10,000 grafted vines delivered in a couple of weeks time and they say, well, we've only got 1000. So what we do, and it's really it's really it really sort of comes with the territory that if you're going to be involved in trying to produce high quality, disease test negative vines, then really in a way, it's I feel like it's on us to make sure the plants exist as well. If you will.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:22 

So yeah, absolutely.

 

James Stamp  12:24 

And on the one hand, we you know, we always have this provision that if we do a lot of testing and the plants are diseased at the end of the process, well, then we're not going to plant them. But we do want to make sure that the plants are available for all we can. So we keep we keep very close track on the way these vines are growing after grafting. And so we'd like to see how many plants of the 10,000, that grafted, get grafted, how many get planted up. So maybe in order for 5000 vines 10,000 get grafted, but only 7500 get grafted up. Well, that's actually a good number. But if you graft 10,000 vines, and the only plant 1000 vines up, you know, within four or five weeks of grafting that you've got a problem. And so it's part of our program is to how to solve that problem. So we need to be in touch with the nurseries right, all the time so that if there's a problem, we have time to fix it so that our clients have no surprises. And maybe they have to spend more money perhaps on testing more materials because we found virus, or it may be that the nursery had a bad take, in which case we have to graft more materials. But ultimately, we want to make sure that our clients plant the vines they want on time, and that those vines are of good quality. So what we do is work to solve problems as they develop. And you know, over the years, we haven't had very many problems. But again, I think we paid close attention to what's going on.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:41 

And suddenly, it just occurred to me, so how many tests per 1000 or 10,000 plants when we're when we're talking about the finished product, how many samples went into, how many tests went into per per 1000, or per 10,000, or whatever?

 

James Stamp  13:55 

You know, it's very variable. Let's say if you're, we're testing for 15 to 15, or 16 different pathogens, and we may be testing, one set of testing at least two plants for every 100 finished product. So if you've got say 1000 vines then, we're probably testing protesting 20 upfront vines, for every 1000 vines of finished, but actually 20 times, multiply that by two. So 20 rootstock and 20 scion approximately. So we're testing roughly 40 plants for every 1000 finished plants. Those 40 plants are being tested for, say 16 pathogens. So it's 40 times 60. If you do that multiple it's you know, 3200 or something like that, or whatever it is. That's a rough idea.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:44 

Of actual individual samples, test. I'm gonna pay so much per test, it's going to be 1000s of tests?

 

James Stamp  14:52 

Yeah, I mean, we test 1000s of samples.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:55 

I guess. Wow.

 

James Stamp  14:56 

We have a pretty large business. I think we were probably the The largest business of its kind that does this type of work, I think. Probably anywhere in the world, I guess. And, you know, it involves a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot of work, especially when you're dealing with a biological system like this, which is open to all sorts of climates and you know, biological impact. You know, drought one year can have a, some sort of weird impact the next year. So just like, you know, getting your fruit every year when you're growing your grapevines is difficult, convoluted, it's based on many different parameters. It's the same thing with producing grafted vines. A lot of different parameters affect the look of the finished product. In fact, this year, we looked at a bunch of dormant routings, and they were really super high quality this year did very, very nice, dormant routings this year with just very good internal approach. So not only is the virus testing and the pathogen testing, we've talked about, the other side of what we do is physical quality. We're involved in selecting the best plants that come through the propagation cycle. So for example, if you grafted 10,000 vines, you have an order for 5000 vines, you have 7500 vines that make it through to the finished product line. Well, we want to select the best 5000 of those 7500. And that involves having a good understanding of the parameters that are involved with a grapevine finished product, which include things like does it have a good root system? Does it have a properly healed graft union? Are the wounds on the rootstock shaft properly healed? Do you have good caliper? Do you have good lignification of the shoot spur? And all those, those different facets of the finished product are related to the pathogenic load of the vine when you start off. So if you if you're starting from materials that have high levels of fungal pathogens, and fungal pathogens are everywhere, in the nursery production cycle. And so the way to ensure you have best product is just is to select pathogens that have very good, that have demonstrated very, very good wound healing. Because those vines won't heal their wounds properly, they won't have good graft wounds, they won't have good root systems. They will have rootstock shaft disbudding sites that are not calloused over, they will have lesions running down from the graft union and running up from the base of the plant if they'd been developed or propagated from poor quality plant material. So the physical quality of the vine and vine and the pathogen status of the virus sort of closely interwoven.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:28 

So this involves looking at every single vine?

 

James Stamp  17:31 

No, actually it involves, what we do is we we sample every increase block vine that is used to produce the vine. And then we look at the finished product by sampling the finished product in terms of its physical evaluation. And I've been doing this, I mean, I started doing this in 1999. And in 1999, I looked at 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of finished product. And you know, you look at finished product, and you just like anything else, you really get to know what finished product looks like looks like. You get to know, you know what a batch of plants looks like. You know, you get to know how many vines you need to look at, to know in other words, to feel comfortable that you're looking, that what you're looking at is representative of the rest of it. And so you use that information, that experience to help you to determine how to evaluate finished product.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:19 

And so regarding, actually regarding methodology, it sounds to me like you have a fairly set methodology that you have tested over using years and years. And there's a quantification component to this as well. So you can say we found this percentage of this as opposed to that, as opposed to that.

 

James Stamp  18:36 

That's exactly right. Yeah. So I think if you would, I mean, you know, things have changed. And we today, we don't get to look at much finished product that we haven't been involved with, right from the very beginning. But sometimes we do and it's always interesting to do that. Because I mean, obviously there's different types of finished product, the potted plants, and then there are dormant bareroot, finish plants. Any any batch of vines that get delivered are going to have some type of defect. The question is, what are those defects and what proportion of the finished product has those defects. So for example, if it's if it's a if it's a severe problem, we'll cancel the order. If it's if it's a severe problem, but in a very small amount of plants, and we know how to identify that problem, then we can have the nursery go back and grade out the bad vines, or we can grade out the bad vines ourselves and take the good vines and get rid of the bad vines. Or we can advise our clients who maybe are buying vines from a nursery I will tell them well this is how you identify the problem in these vines by doing this type of physical manipulation of the plant. It'll tell you what's right or what's wrong with it. But generally speaking, our plants when they've been through our program are very high physical quality with a very small amount of defects or zero defects. Obviously, there's always gonna be some defects. And you really are the final line of defense is the guy who's planting the vine. But our goal is to to sell to our clients vines, the pathogen test negative or very high quality, where there will be no rejects or planting time.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:07 

So let's move into the field. So you also conducted valuations of newly planted and established vineyards for their performance, presumably in the face of pathogen load. How do you conduct these kinds of evaluations? What kind of methodology do you use?

 

James Stamp  20:22 

I have to say, I don't do we don't do this, as much as we used to do this was a much bigger part of our portfolio maybe 10, 15 years ago than it is now. And we used to get called out to look at vines, vineyards that have been recently planted. And say, you know, it's a two year old vineyard, and a three year old vineyard. What do we try to do is to, you know, it's important to look at the venue and at the right time of the year. If it's potentially a virus problem, then you want to look at that vineyard in October, when you can see symptoms of virus, they may be well apparent. But the first thing to do is to try and if there's a problem in a vineyard, maybe it's just performing improperly. Is to try and link any visual performance issues with any particular physical attributes that the plant might have, or they may be associated with the site. Simply put, if you've got vines that are growing properly, than those vines that aren't grown properly, have bad graft unions, or have they been planted improperly. And they've got a J rooted root system. I tried to look at the vineyard and say split into say, three into three categories: good vine performance, bad pine vine performance, and say intermediate vine performance. And trying to correlate those different types of wind performance with either a site issue which might be a soil, irrigation, utilization, fungal pathogens, weeds. And then also compare that with just the vine itself. And this oftentimes involves sacrificing vines, but taking, digging that vine up and looking at the root system, looking at the grafting. And it's actually very easy to tell by looking at vines, whether or not the issue that you're seeing is a result of the vine being imperfect at the time of planting, or whether it's more like you know, whether it's related to the way it was planted or where it was planted.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:09 

That is really, really fascinating. We've kind of run out of our time here, I want to thank you again, James Stamp, Stamp Associates, Viticulture Inc,. There's obviously a lot of work to continue to do. And the work that you folks are doing is wonderful. And I hope that more people will start thinking along the same lines, at the very least I hope the philosophy spreads. Is there one thing you would recommend to our listeners?

 

James Stamp  22:32 

Yeah, I think what's it's a, it's a big one thing with with sub parts. It really is to pay attention to where your plant materials coming from. To have a really good communication with the nursery. If nothing else, sample the finished finished product for Red Blotch and Leaf Roll Three, which are the two viruses that have the biggest impact on vine performance. And the two viruses that are very easily vectored in the industry.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:59 

That's great. Where can we find out more about you?

 

James Stamp  23:02 

We have a website, the website is JamesStamp.net. There's all our, that we have. We've written a bunch of articles about what we do. We give presentations fairly frequently. And so some of that information is on there. And we have a website and of course, phone number, email, of course all that's there.

 

Craig Macmillan  23:20 

Perfect. Fantastic. Well, I want to thank you again, James, and I want to thank our listeners for listening to Sustainable Winegrowing with the new team. Again, my name is Craig Mcmillan, your host and we look forward to having you download us again.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Peter Work, Owner, Winemaker, and Vineyard Manager at Ampelos Cellars recounts how becoming a certified organic vineyard led to becoming Demeter® biodynamic certified and eventually SIP Certified®. He explains the similarities and differences between the three certifications and how that helps him farm in a way that promotes and protects the planet, his profits, and the people who work for him.

References:

• Ampelos Cellars
• Demeter® Association, Inc.
• Organic Pest Control in Vineyards Episode 14 | Julian Malone (Podcast)
• SIP Certified®
• Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybugs in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches
• USDA Organic Certification

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

In the 1880s, Pierce’s disease caused a devastating, total collapse of the Southern California grapevine industry. Today, growers have hope for the future thanks to new varieties. Adam Tolmach, owner of Ojai Vineyard, planted four of these new varieties as a field trial on a plot of land where Pierce's disease wiped out his grapes in 1995. 

Pierce’s disease is a bacterium spread by insects, typically a sharpshooter. One bite and the vine dies within two to three years. To develop resistant varieties, Andy Walker of the University of California at Davis crossed the European grape Vitis vinifera with Vitis arizonica. 20 years later, commercial growers have access to three red and two white varieties.

Listen in to learn how Tolmach’s experiment is a success both in the vineyard and with customers. Plus get tasting notes for the new varieties.

Resources:        

• REGISTER: The Ins & Outs of Developing a New Vineyard Site
• 89: New Pierce’s Disease Vaccine (podcast)
• 137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board
• 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Symposium session recordings
• Anita Oberholster, UC Davis Viticulture and Enology Webpage
• Office Hours with Dave and Anita, Episode 11: Pierce’s Disease Resistant Winegrape Varieties
• Ojai Vineyard
• Pierce’s Disease resistant winegrape varieties overview
• UC breeds wine vines resistant to Pierce’s disease
• UC Davis releases 5 grape varieties resistant to Pierce’s disease

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Our guest today is Adam Tolmach owner and winemaker of Ojai vineyard. Thanks for being on the podcast, Adam.

 

Adam Tolmach  0:06 

It's my pleasure, Creg. Great to be here.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:09 

I want to give a little background. Before we get into our main topic. We're gonna be talking about Pierce disease resistant grape vines today, but I think your location has a lot to do with how this came about. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that you are a pioneer and innovator and quite frankly, legend in the history of the Central Coast. And one of the pioneering things that you did was you planted a vineyard in Ojai, California, why Ojai? And what is the what's the environment, like, you know, hi.

 

Adam Tolmach  0:33 

Ojai because in 1933, my grandfather bought a piece of property in Ojai while I grew up in Oxnard, we, you know, on weekends, we'd come up here and chase lizards and snakes and stuff like that. And so I'm pretty familiar with the area and then I lived in Ohio for a few years after I finished studying at UC Davis getting a basically a viticulture degree. I came down here and and ran a truck farming operation, we grew vegetables and sold sold them in a roadside stand. And after doing that for two years, I made $4,500 After two years of worth worth of work. So I had said well maybe I should try to get a job in my my field. So my second job in the field was was working at at Zaca Mesa, 79 and 80. And then so as far as the place to plant grapes, you know, that's the reason we're in Ojai because we the family owns property.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:30 

What is the environment like in Ojai? Because I think it's a little bit different than many grape growing regions.

 

Adam Tolmach  1:34 

Yeah, you know, it's actually not that different than I would say the east side of the Santa Ynez Valley like the happy Canyon area or you know, or Paso Robles. Really as far as climatic goes. thing that's a little bit different about Ojai is the wintertime lows aren't as low as they are up in the Santa Ynez Valley or up in Paso. And that's that's a big deal, especially when it comes to Pierce's disease.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:01 

That's where we're gonna go next. When you planted, were there things that you were expecting? And then were there things that came out that were unexpected? And then thinking maybe Pierce's disease is one of those?

 

Adam Tolmach  2:11 

Well, yeah, certainly was, you know, as I've started, you know, pretty ignorant. As young people tend to be, I knew that there was a history of winemaking and grape growing in Ojai, which pretty much died off with prohibition. Actually, after Prohibition, there was a good sized Zinfandel vineyard that ended up being buried in the bottom of Lake Casitas. That sort of what I knew a little bit about grapes. And I didn't really realize it. Pierce's disease also worked into all that that, you know, you plant a vineyard around here, and it's pretty difficult to keep them alive  for the long term.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:48 

Just cover the bases. What is Pearson's disease?

 

Adam Tolmach  2:51 

It was originally discovered in Anaheim, California, you know, back in the I believe it's 1880s or so there were 10s of 1000s of acres of grapes in that area 10 or 20 or 30 years out. In fact, it was a much bigger growing area than, than say Napa, up north was for for grapes. And those vines all died. And at the time, it was called Anaheim's disease. Yeah. And so later on, Mr. Pierce, I think, discovered a little bit about the disease. And what we know today is that it's a bacterium that is spread by an insect, typically from a sharpshooter. But there are other insects that also spread this disease. In our case, we're not too far from a river habitat, a riparian habitat, these bugs like lush, green growing areas, and they live in the river bottom, all they have to do is get blown by the wind up to our place. If the insect is carrying this bacterium, it just takes one bite. And then within two or three years, the vine dies because basically the bacteria clog up the water conductive tissues.

 

Craig Macmillan  3:59 

Exactly. When you were first addressing this problem. What kinds of management things did you do to try to manage this?

 

Adam Tolmach  4:06 

Well, we didn't back then. And as we are now we're reasonably committed organic growers. So you know, we don't use herbicides, we don't use insecticides. And you know, I learned as the vineyard died, basically what was going on? So we didn't really do anything, preventative wise. And so the vineyard just slowly declined, right, which is pretty sad thing to see that really considering that I planted you know, every one of the vines in the beginning back in 1981.

 

Craig Macmillan  4:37 

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

 

Adam Tolmach  4:39 

And then so we went on, after that, and for years, you know, so the vineyard grew from planted in 81. And then in 1995, after the harvest, we pulled the vineyard because it's so much of it was gone from the disease and then and then there are many years where we you know, didn't grow any grapes on our property. We purchase grapes from mostly, you know, I'm from the Ohio area a little bit, but also mostly from the Northern Santa Barbara County. That area from Santa Maria to Lompoc is really where ideal grapes grow. But I'd always have a hankering to have, you know, to continue to have a vineyard here because we do have the winery right on site here. Close friends and family knew Andy Walker, who was the one who was developing these grapes that were at UC Davis that were resistant to Pierce's disease. You know, I kept kind of pushing the friends to see you if I could get some of these cuttings or plants. And then finally, really just a year or two before they were actually officially released to the public for sale. I was able to get enough to plant a very small vineyard here which is just 1.2 acres, and it's planted to four different varietals. All four of them were developed by by Dr. Walker that He basically took Vitus vinifera the European grape variety and crossed it with Vitis Arizonica in Arizona is a native of the southwest and there are some plant breeding advantages to using Arizonica, it carries the resistance, they can somehow see that really well in my days of knowing how all this stuff works is a little bit past but but there were there are certain advantages that Arizonica provided a one of which was it's a pretty neutral tasting grape. And then also the the second thing was, they were able to pick out right away if they did a cross whether they can tell whether it had the resistance or not. So they did worked on that he's worked on it for about 25 years. And in the end, he had these varietals that were that are 97% vinifera. And only 3% of the American stock, which is pretty important for the flavor profile. They taste very much like the different wines, not like you know, the native wines.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:53 

And then you've expanded that vineyard, I'm assuming you had your trial vineyard and expanded it.

 

Adam Tolmach  6:57 

No, no, no, it's all it's all we have is this 1.2 acres. Yeah. And so you know, we mostly make conventional grapes. So you know, we make Pinot Noir Syrah Chardonnay Sauvignon Blanc and a few other things. And we get some of those grapes from the Ojai area and in spots where they're when they're where there's less Pierce's Disease pressures. And then also up in Northern Santa Barbara County, as I said before, and so yeah, we're just we're still working with, with what we have, we found that the vines are very productive. And we are currently making really just the right amount that we need to provide our direct customers with the wines. It's been a fabulous experiment and great fun, because basically knew, but nobody knew how to grow these grapes. And each grape variety grows a little differently. And so then that was that was a real challenge there. Because I had grown grapes in the same spot before I knew some of the problems and challenges and they had a real strong sense of how I wanted to grow them a second time around. And so that was super helpful. But it's still they still were unknowns for for us, you know, the bigger the crop level, all that stuff, the taste. And then so that was great fun. And then in winemaking wise, Andy Walker had done a number of public tastings of these experimental varieties, I think I went to four of them, where they're mostly were three gallon lots that were fermented by the university. And so it's a little hard to tell from that, but they just seem like there was some potential there. Interestingly, Camus vineyard early on, got some of the vines have this one variety paseante noir. And so they made a really almost commercial size lot of that one, and I was able to taste that before I planted it. And while their winemaking style is a little different than mine, there was it was clear that there was like lovely potential in those grapes. So that was encouraging. But still, we knew nothing, we had no idea. It's still a work in progress it. You know, after five years of producing wine, there's a lot more to learn about how to best make these works. But so anyway, we planted four varietals one is passeante noir, which I think is sort of the best of the ones that I've I've tried. We also had a red, that is really it was never released to the public. So it's a you know, it's our own little thing. We have a small amount of that we call it Walker red. And then we have two whites caminante blanc and ambulo blanc and they're both to go back. Well to go on, I guess is the ambulo blanc and the caminante blanc are distinctively different. They're a bit on the Sofia and blanc side of life, I suppose. But not exactly. And then going back to the passeante noir that's I feel like it sort of tastes like a cross between between syray and maybe cab franc And then possibly some mouved you know, it's a little hard to, to read exactly what's there, but they're unique and different. And you know, in a world from 30 years ago, people wouldn't have known what to do with them. But these days, there's a lot of interest in unique grape varieties, you know, all over Europe, people are, are reviving ancient varietals that nobody's ever heard of, and they all have unique flavors and unique characters. Here are some newly bred ones that that are available now.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:27 

What is the response from consumers have been like?

 

Adam Tolmach  10:29 

Well, that's, that's been super encouraging. Because so you know, we're selling almost exclusively directly to our, our consumers, we have a tasting room, and we have, we do mailorder as well. And but I mean, it's been very positive, we've been able to sell out the wines, people seem to really enjoy them. So it that's been a thrill to, you know, have that consumer acceptance, I think it would be much more difficult if it was, you know, in a grocery store, for instance, but because nobody would know what the name meant. When we're able to hand sell it, it has not been difficult to sell. So that's, that's been super fun. Now, Dr. Walker, also, he had the idea that these varieties, you could grow them and use them as blending material, you know, like if you're making Cabernet Sauvignon in the Napa Valley. It's well known that in the Napa Valley near the Napa River, there's huge Pierce's disease problems. And so is one of his ideas is well you could you know, plant strips of of these varietals be able to have at use the ground productively and then blend them with Cabernet Sauvignon as long as you're over 75% You could call it Cabernet. But what's amazing to me is that the this Passeante Noir is really it's it's it works pretty well as a standalone varietal.

 

Craig Macmillan  11:41 

Were you tempted to to blend we attempted to use these as blenders? Or were you committed to single varietal all along?

 

Adam Tolmach  11:48 

I was much more interested in what they had to say. Yeah, so there wasn't very much interest in my part of of using them to stretch of wine or whatever to you know, to add to something else. It was an option I you know, if they weren't as good as they are, I would definitely could put them into you know, inexpensive bland we make it Ojai read or Ojai white. And so that was definitely an option. But I'm kind of thrilled that they you know, they're interesting enough, they can stand alone.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:13 

Do you think that you'll expand your planting?

 

Adam Tolmach  12:15 

Possibly right now, No, I've got too many things going on. And in this little vineyard year, being small as I do, I do all the pruning, and do some of the work out there. And so it's kind of a family affair. I'm not sure if I want to overwhelm my family with more. For our needs, we don't need too much more. As as things stand. We're we're pretty small size operation. And this is pretty much, well takes care of it. Interestingly, in the same vein, I own a small vineyard, up in the Lompoc area in Santa Rita Hills called Vaciega that's planted to Pinot Noir. And there's one area of the vineyard is kind of up on a little bit of up on a, a mesa or something in between, you know, above quite a bit above the river. The Santa Ynez river. But there's one small section of the property. That's right, basically, in the river bottom, it had been planted to Chardonnay and died of pierces within eight years of its planting. So it was pretty, pretty devastated. And so we actually planted the passeante noir down there and got our first crop this year into that world last year in 2013. And we're pretty excited by that. So really different climate to grow in. So you know, cool climate versus pretty warm climate. It seems pretty, pretty fascinating right now, I'm pretty excited by that. So we do you know, we do have more just not here in Ojai.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:43 

Would you commit like, what are you going to cultural notes on each variety? And then also what are your like winemaking notes on each variety because this podcast is growers and winemakers and we can get a little bit more technical if you like.

 

Adam Tolmach  13:54 

Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Andy Walker released five different varietals, three red, and two whites. I have the two whites and I have only one of the Reds that are commercially released. And that one is paseante noir and paseante Noir is a very vigorous grower. We're on pretty rich soil, I mean, richer than you need for grapes, mostly eluvial stuff. You go down three and a half, four feet, and it's, you know, it's river rocks, and then there are shaley areas, but it's rather richer than you need. We haven't planted on one 114 rootstock which is quite deinvigorating. But in our site, it's still exhibits lots of vigor. And so the paseoante noir grows like crazy. We have planted pretty close together. So our rows are five and a half feet apart, rather than, you know, six or eight or 10. And I did that specifically, for climatic reasons, you know, you get these rows a little bit closer together. You get a fairly tall vertical trellis. And what you end up with is, is a little more shading. And we have this really narrow canopy, the grapes all get some direct sun, but just not for very long, a little bit in the morning a little bit in the afternoon, the rest of the time, they're shaded, also the ground is shaded a lot, because they are so close together. And I think that keeps the temperature down. And I think that's really better for quality. And that's, you know, my personal view on it. And, and that's worked really well we've never, we've never had a situation yet where, you know, it's gotten so hot that the grapes have rasined up, you know, just like overnight, it's not just not happened. So yeah, so here we have the paseante noir it's you know, it's a real vigorous grower, I have a quote on pruned it's incredibly productive. We've been dropping, you know, 50% or more of the grapes as a as a green drop every year and I think I need to double down and drop even more as it turns out, they really want to produce in part of its, you know, part of it is our rich soil, but I think they're also bred to be quite productive. So that's, that's really nice. You know, better than too little, which is, you know, kind of Pinot Noir is problem, generally speaking, the walker red is this one that nobody really knows about, but it's, it's a little more like if the paseante is is a cross between, in my mind a cross between Syrah and cab franc and the walker read is a little more Zin and Grenache kind of character grows a little more upright and with less vigor, a lot more like how Grenache grows. And then the two whites the caminante blanc produces these little tiny clusters that somehow end up always produced, you know, the yields are still high, even with the small berries, small clusters, they give a little bit of a blush to them almost, they're not completely green when they're fully ripe. And they have a really distinctive spicy character, they're quite interesting. And that one is the weakest growing, there's no bigger problem there, it grows along fine with it, it fills up the canopy, but just barely every year, because of the size of the clusters, you just don't expect there to be much crop, but it always turns out to be very generous. And then the other varietals is called ambulo blanc. And it's a little, maybe has a bit of Sauvignon Blanc, spiciness to it. But it also is it's got a much more sort of Chardonnay ish, like, produces large clusters. And it also grows vigorously. So it requires a lot of the trellising is really, really important. And so we spend a lot of time in the ambulo blanc and paseante noir, you know, weaving weaving the canes up, right.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:06 

Based on your experience, would you say, Hey, this is a great idea. If you live in a Pierce's disease area, you should definitely try this out.

 

Adam Tolmach  17:55 

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because I mean, if the if Pierce's Disease is pretty strong, you're you know, you're left with, you know, having to use a lot of insecticides, and they're very bee unfriendly insecticides. And so, you know, we're able to grow here completely organically. That's worked out really well. So that's, that's, there's a great advantage there. I noticed in your questions at the you had to get sent me a list of questions. And one of them is like, what else should they be working on at the university? And definitely, my opinion is, you know, the biggest disease problem of grapevines in California is called powdery mildew. Everybody knows about it, why there aren't more powdery mildew resistant vines out out here yet is, is is interesting, you and every other trade, people that are kind of, you know, they, they praise, the new things that are coming along, the progress has been made in the wine business, everybody wants to just the old thing, just the way it's always been, that's a little bit of a stumbling block in a world where the climate is changing. So that's what that's why I really recommend that's what should be worked on is is resistance to powdery mildew, because it's not going to get better with climate warming. And also, it's it's the reason that we drive through our vineyards, you know, five or 10 times in a season just for powdery mildew control, it would be an incredibly great environmental thing if we could grow great tasting grapes and make great wine out of powdery mildew resistant varietals.

 

Craig Macmillan  19:27 

And I think people are starting to move that direction.

 

Adam Tolmach  19:30 

Oh, yeah.

 

Craig Macmillan  19:31 

But you're right, bring it on. You know, let's, let's try where can people find out more about you?

 

Adam Tolmach  19:36 

You can go to our website, you know, Ohiovineyard.com. And there's, there's lots there's tons of information about about us and me and what we're doing and we have, there's a whole article on on the site about the Pierce's resistant vines that we're growing.

 

Craig Macmillan  19:52 

Very cool. Well, um, so our guest today has been Adam Tolmach owner, winemaker. Oh, hi, vineyard. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. Right

 

Adam Tolmach  20:00 

Yeah my pleasure I've been listening to your show now for quite some time I really enjoy it

 

Craig Macmillan  20:04 

oh good fantastic thank you and for all of our listeners out there thank you for listening to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team

 

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

The phrases climate change, greenhouse gas emissions, and carbon sequestration are common place in wine production. But what can you do make a science-based, and achievable impact? Brianna Beighle, Assistant Winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company explains scope one, two, and three emissions as they apply to the wine industry. Viticulturalists and winemakers can look at easy to measure practices like diesel fuel use, Nitrogen application timing, and light weight glass bottles to reduce their footprint. She explains that even small shifts in management can have a big impact. 

Resources:

• 67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production
• 91: Carbon Sequestration
• 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change
• 125: Using Grape Grower Demographics to Influence Climate Change Adaptation
• 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change
• 171: How to Farm Wine Grapes for Climate Change
• 2020 HiRes Vineyard Nutrition Research Update
• Bottled Up: Unpacking the Facts about Wine Bottles and Climate Change
• Brianna Beighle’s LinkedIn
• Christina Lazcano, University of California, Davis
• International Wineries for Climate Action (IWAC)
• Shaky Ground: A company called Indigo is paying farmers to trap carbon in their soils. Some researchers say the climate benefits are dubious
• Soil organic carbon sequestration rates in vineyard agroecosystems under different soil management practices: A meta-analysis
• Vineyard nutrient management in Washington State

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• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace
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Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

And our guest today is Brianna Beighle. She is assistant winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company. And she's an MBA student in the half school, the UC Berkeley, and she focuses on sustainability. And she's been working on some pretty interesting things around science based decision making and climate change. Welcome to the podcast, Brianna.

 

Brianna Beighle  0:18 

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here in chat with you, Craig.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:20 

I am too. You've been doing quite a bit of thinking. And also communicating on the role of what we would call science based decision making regarding companies or firms, sometimes I call them and things like climate change, climate change. In particular, this requires us to draw some boxes conceptually, maybe from even a systems thinking approach. If you if you subscribe to that kind of an idea where in order to get a handle on talking about something, we're probably need to kind of define it. And sometimes it's just a question of where do you draw the lines around? What in what? So in the realm of business and climate change industries and climate change? There are some boxes have already been defined, that have been found to be useful. But they also have some limitations? What would some of those be in your mind is a good starting points?

 

Brianna Beighle  1:05 

Oh, goodness, I guess I'll just go first to where you're talking about some things that have already been established. And I'm just going to say, the first ones that everyone has out there is that the scope one, scope two and scope, three emissions. So those have been established to kind of bucket as you're saying where specific emissions come from. And scope one emissions for I'm sure most of you are familiar, are ones that are directly associated with company facilities, company vehicles. Scope two emissions are ones that are generated from electricity production for the facility. So that's heating, that's cooling, you may not be generating that electricity on site in some cases, but you're still claiming it because you're using the lab that electricity on site. And scope three is, as Craig, you know, it's kind of the catch all for everything else.

 

Craig Macmillan  1:58 

Exactly.

 

Brianna Beighle  1:59 

I would say that it's useful in some respect, where it taught us how to think about emissions and to pinpoint fossil fuels are where a lot of our emissions come from as a society on this planet. But I think that scope three is too general, where it lumps all these things together. And it makes us not claim anything as our own, which kind of inhibits us, as we say, What can I do to move forward?

 

Craig Macmillan  2:23 

Exactly. That's a really good point, in particular relate to the wind industry, would you consider for wineries Would you consider CO2 emissions from fermentation is scope one emissions?

 

Brianna Beighle  2:34 

I would I think I'd like to introduce another topic here. And that's modern carbon versus versus fossil carbon. And so what what that saying here is, fossil carbon is everything that we are drawing out from the earth, it's very deep in the ground, and we're excavating it out, and it's been there for years. And so again, that's fossil fuels really easy. And then we go to other types of carbon, which would be for what we've got with fermentation, in which case, that's carbon that's already naturally generated and already within the realm of the atmosphere. So maybe this, that was a silly way to explain it, but here, I'm gonna break it down. So what it is, is our plants are taking in carbon our vines are taking in carbon from the air, and then they're incorporating it into the trunk into the leaves and into the fruit. So that carbon was already in the atmosphere, whether I put it in a ferment and make it co2 And alcohol, or whether I dropped that fruit on the ground, it's just going to cycle back in to the atmosphere. So it's a cyclical process. So that's something that the earth is naturally balanced to. The carbon matters in my mind is the carbon that's not constantly cycling, and is not part of a natural process. And that's, again, the fossil carbons that were stored, and we're pulling out and we're admitting,

 

Craig Macmillan  3:47 

That makes a lot of sense. So there we are talking about boxes again, right? So I can say, hey, yeah, there's CO2 being released by my Fermat. Or there's some kind of a nitrous oxide or some other kind of a nitrogen based compound being released by sheep that are grazing my vineyard or by leguminous plants that are breaking down or whatever it might be. And there's those are naturally happening things is they're they're already in the environment, they're not being mined. How do I get a handle on what different processes are contributing how much they're contributing to greenhouse gas emission releases for things like my power usage, my scope two or my tractors or my farm trucks or whatever it might be? If I want to make decisions about reducing my outputs? How do I get a handle on that?

 

Brianna Beighle  4:40 

I'd say an ag, it's somewhat complex to get a handle on where our emissions come from and how we reduce them because it's all bound up in natural processes. Like you said, Yes, we're, we understand when we burn diesel for our tractors, what nitrous oxide we produce from that because that's an equation that we know we know how that diesel gets converted, where it becomes really difficult. And what you're trying to get at here seems like is that our biggest emitter, specifically in the vineyard is coming from the soil, and it is coming from the microbes in the soil. And it depends on what type of nitrogen you have available. It depends on how much water you have in the soil. There are so many things that are tied into that, that means that I can't say like, Hey, you apply this much nitrogen, it's going to turn into this much nitrous oxide. It doesn't it doesn't work like that, especially and I'd say it gets hard to in grapes. Because the nitrogen that's available to grapes, that's so we've got we've got our two forms of nitrogen that we apply. And that's we usually apply nitrate, there's also ammonia that can be applied to the soils. But in grapes that's considered toxic. And we're unlucky in the fact that all the ag products that are out there commercially, to kind of help reduce your nitrous your nitrogen emissions, your nitrous oxide emissions are because they convert the nitrous oxide and they hold it as ammonia, which we don't want for our soils. So we can't use that in grapes. So I guess I kind of just like spun around in a bit to say, yes, the nitrogen cycle is all cyclical, we have to think about it sure our tractors, that one's easy for us to think about, we need to think about it in our cover crop, because all the length, legumes we put out like those have nitrogen, and those get converted by microbes. And those get released, like that's still a source of emissions, we need to think about it. You mentioned rumens, I mentioned that and talked on that really quick. But yeah, our rumens our sheep or cows, they're all belching methane. That's what they do. And they have a lot of benefits to us from a sustainability perspective, from from a soil health perspective. And we need to count those benefits. But we also need to put them in the context of like they have emissions too.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:40 

Because even though we're talking about it, here's where things get fun. So even though we're talking about things that were already in the environment, right, they're above the surface of the Earth, they're in the soil during this throw in the air, that animal, or microbial process, whatever it is, is converting it into a form that has a very significant greenhouse gas emission effect. So methane, for instance, is the big one was one of the big ones. So it wasn't methane before, but it's methane now.

 

Brianna Beighle  7:09 

Yeah, methane being 25 times more insular in terms of its climate impacts. And then we also have the benefit where methane converts to CO2. So that's why we extra don't want to make it if you're gonna make one or the other. So that kind of comes down again, me branching off to why composting is important. Rather than landfills, it's like, Sure, it turns into CO2 when it goes into the atmosphere and composting, but that's better than going methane in the landfill and then going to CO2.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:34 

How do I get a handle on this? How do I I'm a manager, I've been with the forces, the powers that be have said, okay, look, we need to take a look at our carbon footprint or greenhouse gas issues. Go tell me what we've been doing and then make some recommendations for how we change it. How do I Where do I get data? I'm How do I go about this?

 

Brianna Beighle  7:53 

I think to start off with it's kind of just getting familiar with folks in the industry who have already benchmarked because it's really, it's expensive to create a lifecycle assessment. And I'd say that that's kind of a career that's just starting up. For example, we have the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance, they put together a study in which they looked at all the emissions throughout the entire throughout the entire wind cycle that goes from vineyard that even includes which I'm really happy about that they included some scope threes, we'll put that in quotes of inputs that we get, and all the way to packaging and winery and transport. So I think going there and just everyone in the wine industry, understanding where our emissions come from, because I think they break it down in a really pretty package. Again, though, everybody has their own emissions, we all have our own individual choices that we make, that does deviate from that, for example, I know Tablas Creek, kind of down closer to your area, they've done their own assessment of their greenhouse gases, which is like, amazing. We need folks like that, who can show each of us how to think about it. So look at those of us who have already done these assessments, and use them as a market and go to their talks, like hear what they say is hard, because that's going to be hard for you too. And I see from this soil perspective, it's kind of it's impossible to really calculate out. I know, we can try and work on it. But someone will say, I don't know. We're not going to know we just reduce our nitrogen applications and be conscious that vineyards sequester carbon, yes, they do. But we also create greenhouse gases, like we said, in the form of nitrous oxides. As long as we have a holistic perspective, we can understand what our real contribution is. And that's important because if we want to make progress for our industry, and we want to try and ride the storm that's already started that's already coming towards us. We each need to own our part and and take the steps that we can to to help create be part of the solution, especially since in agriculture and food production. Were the kind of the first to be hit by it.

 

Craig Macmillan  9:51 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I am familiar with the Tablas Creek project study that's being done by Charlotte DeCock Cal Poly SLO, San Luis Obispo, and Christina Lazcano at UC Davis, and it's really intense. I'm really looking forward to where they come out at the end of this project and what they find out. But they're looking at exactly the things you've been talking about, obviously, and Tablas has been making its own decisions based on that. But I think you have an excellent point that the best that we can do, probably from a practical standpoint, is we can do a little bit of our own work in terms of maybe experimentation or measurement or something like that. But collectively, if we can share what we find out, you know, that's better than nothing. You know, I get this comment all the time when I present research company research that I've done, or things that I've worked on, and it's like, well, yeah, but that's Spain, you know, or that's not Cabernet Sauvignon, or whatever. And it's like, well, this is as close as we can get right now. So yeah, I agree with you, I would love to have it be that specific. But why don't we can we at least start here, whatever we do have, and then we can improve upon as we go along? And of course, the systems are very complex. So it's always kind of a question mark, if I am a manager, and I'm now thinking about this, where do I start? We've talked about where I might find some data. But if I was going to start a project on this, where might I start? How might I prioritize my investigation into carbon footprint or greenhouse gas emissions?

 

Brianna Beighle  11:20 

I'm gonna say, let's start with a low hanging fruit. If we're if we're just getting into it, that would be again, I don't like to use go one adn two emissions. But those are easily calculated, will we know where energy sources are coming from, we know how much fuel we use, we get bills for those things. We know that's quantified already for us. So looking at that, and looking at what we can do to reduce that whether that's we're really lucky in California, where we have recent we have a lot of access to renewable energy, whether that's changing up our purchasing, so that we purchased 100%, renewable, I know some places that's not possible. us in the north coast, we're really lucky that that is possible in a lot of places, looking at those bills, trying to switch over to renewable when we can, investigating whether solar makes sense on site solar for our own energy generation, because there's yes, there's facility wide solar, there's also, you know, I know that there are grants out there currently for getting solar for pumps, for irrigation, like things like that, it doesn't have to be giant or nothing like little steps do count, especially since the price tags on some of the solar projects can be pretty large. So and then also, the easy, big bad guy, which is adjusting down the weight of our glass glass is 29% of the production of wine and the sale of wine. And so that's one that's easy, a lot of it, let's just say it's attitude, it's sometimes form over function. And I think that especially since consumers are starting to demand more climate conscious products, if they find out how big our glass footprint is just for ego, I don't think they're going to be happy. So I think that's something that we can easily do that will not sacrifice the product.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:01 

So this is a big conversation. Two things. Number one, I believe that the marketing research has been done has demonstrated, at least within the last five years pretty, pretty conclusively that folks are willing to pay more for a heavier bottle of wine, they recognize, oh, this is important. It's good enough, even if they think or they know that it's the same product. At the same time I face this regularly, where I people get my face, you know, they say, you know, this is a heavy bottle. I don't like it. Why do wineries not just just the whole span at Why do wineries do this and not do bag in a box? Or why don't they do lighter glass or whatever. And it's, it's it's a difficult conversation in terms of like weighing what is going to work for you as a company in terms of like, what your packaging is going to look like I and I agree with you. And I think this is an important one low hanging fruit, we know that that's the biggest contributor is the is the packaging. So focusing on that's a good idea. Now, how do I get accurate information, good quality information about the carbon footprint of the glass that I buy. And I say this because in my own work, I found that I could make something in France in a super ultra modern state of the art factory with the lowest emissions per metric ton and I could ship it halfway across the world on a boat and it would have lower emissions than something that was made in Mexico and then trucked to Fairfield for those of you who are not familiar with California, the Benicia, Fairfield etc in the Bay Area are big suppliers for wine, all kinds of wine stuff, including glass and then chuck it back down to me at nobody was really given me this information. I was you know, I was looking at it and I'm having to guess what advice do you have on these things? Because because it's easy to say you know, lighter glass in the story, but it's lighter glass, it's got to be made on the moon and then you know, flown in a spaceship you know, might not work out like we think.

 

Brianna Beighle  15:00 

Exactly. And again, like, that's when the we'll just say like the academic and conceptual realm meets the reality of a real business. That's actually a big part of how we can all work towards creating solutions. And it's one of the things it's going to be really hard about this is communication between suppliers and service providers. Like we said, scope three, that we mentioned, that I think is a little bit of a bag of everything. In order to break that down and understand where emissions come from our suppliers, we need to have open communication lines, and we need to, we need them to be open. But we also need to incentivize them to be open with us too. And to maybe adjust things to fit what we see the market is. And I'm not saying that's easy, you're probably more more apt to handle that with your psychology background than I am, Craig. But it's not easy. And again, the numbers say lighter glass. But in reality, that means working with our partners having accessibility to lighter glass, where the energy comes from for that glass, because we know a lot of the glass is made in other places that don't have as clean of energy sources, I hate to say like, I don't know, the perfect solution to that. And it all just comes down to people. And all of us being open with each other and passing, I'm gonna say passing the buck, but in a good way. Like we know, as wineries, our consumers are willing to pay more for sustainable products. And so we need to take some of those gains that we have, and transition that money on to our suppliers for supplying us with more sustainable products, because it's more expensive on their end, to pay for renewable energy, it's more expensive for us and for our suppliers. So we can't just say we want this other product make it the same price, like we have to be putting voting with our dollar and showing that we care about the relationship at the same time.

 

Craig Macmillan  16:41 

What has traditionally been kind of and this is true for for a lot of stuff, not just wine or glass. You know, you have a manufacturer, they say, Hey, this is what we think you want. And this was what makes us different than our other competitors. What do you think, by it, here's why it's good. We haven't had as much of the other direction where we go to a supplier and say, hey, look, this is what I need. I need this, I need this, I need this. This is what I'm looking for. And a lot of times we do that, when we're talking about specifics in terms of like, I need a certain kind of mold, I need a certain kind of, you know, look, or I need certain kind of price. But we go back and say hey, we also need some assurances about, you know, what the carbon footprint of this is? Can you tell me where it came from? Can you tell me how it was made? You know, can you give me something so they can make some comparisons? I think is really is a really good point. on your part. We just talked about glass wood, what's maybe the number two area you think that people could put some energy into, pardon the pun,

 

Brianna Beighle  17:37 

Put some renewable energy into it.

 

Craig Macmillan  17:40 

Out some renewable energy Exactly. Yeah.

 

Brianna Beighle  17:43 

It would also be like we talked about kind of reducing your site energy and making that more renewable. That'd be the next again, low hanging fruit. But there's also a lot of other things that we can try and incorporate that are a little bit easier. I've got like this like flow of of some aspects in my head that we can all do. And again, some of these are kind of conflicting hard and easy, like another one is leaving as much green as you can on your properties. If you're if you're a vineyard owner, or if you're a winery, because any biomass that you have out there, there's growth as much well, depending on the plant, there's growth in the ground, just like there is up top, and that growth eventually will be incorporated into the soil. I'm not saying that that's their solution for everything. Like we have to do more than plant trees, because we've torn down trees, and we pulled from the ground. But that's one thing that we can all do. But again, that's kind of conflicting for folks who till everything, like that's a hard change for them. For those of us that are already into thinking about cover cropping and you have your sheep, that's easy. So that's something that's a hard and easy. Another one is how we think about, like we said, our nitrogen use, that's again, that's it 17% of the emissions for is from the vineyard. And again, that's a supplier and buyer issue, depending on your your company structure as well, if you're in the vineyard, or if you're in the winery and you're buying fruit, it's a conversation about about nitrogen use. And I will say from a from a crop standpoint, we're actually very good compared to other crops. Most everybody does. Bloom petiole samples, verasion petiole samples, and we use that to guide our applications. At the same time, there's still new products out there that could really help us to narrow this down. Because even though I know some of you do your samples, I know you also just add some canned 17 or cn nine to the amount that you think feels right.

 

Craig Macmillan  19:37 

It's true. I mean, there is a gut feeling thing that's also involved, you know, I mean, you're you're right, we are very lucky that grape vines are not super nitrogen hungry, like other crops, which gives us the opportunity to have that as a lower risk, but still an important one.

 

Brianna Beighle  19:55 

To branch off of that too. We also do a good job in the fact that we apply our nitrogen at different points. So the we're not doing one big shot. So if you are someone who does like one big shot and I turn, you get your big fat fertigation, I would suggest evening those out because you are giving a lot at one time for the microbes to break down and your plant isn't going to be able to pick it up in a good rate. So if you space it out, what you do is it takes the microbes a second to like get themselves going, and it takes your vine a second to get going. So like, let them do that in balance. And also, if you kind of break things up, then you don't get as much soil saturation. And that's when our nitrous oxide microbes really forced. So I'd also like to point out too, that Davis is developing a remote multi spectral sensing tool, which I believe right now is targeted more towards table grapes. I don't know if they've really branched out and that's to check the nitrogen status of our field to see where we can make those applications. And I know that there's also kind of remote sensing going in sprayers too. So this is me just like imagining something in the future where we've got our spectral and it says like, right now what we apply our nitrogen via one irrigation line, I'm not saying put polyline out everywhere, and we've got 20 Polly's just to get nitrogen out. But like, we can do foliar applications of things based on that with the sprayers that are calibrated in to be spatially recognized. Like, I'm not the trickiest of people. But like that does give me jazz a little bit. And it's not going to be the solution for everybody. But it's going to be a solution for some and that matters.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:24 

Yeah, resolution, and targeted. Where do I go to get the science I need to make intelligent science based decisions? We've been talking about things a little bit in the abstract. But let's say I'm really serious about a topic. So where did where do you go? What what do you think are sources that are useful? On any go on any topic, you could go any direction you want, we're gonna.

 

Brianna Beighle  21:47 

I'm one of those I say proudly, one of those nerds who really like scientific papers. And I'd say right now one of my main sources is actually one of my professors who's at Haas, he, he lives here in Napa Valley, just like I do, his wife have their own property. So we kind of like geek out on really, he sends me a lot of papers. And I've actually recently found some of my own, so we exchanged those. So I'd say we're so lucky in this age that we live in where we have access to so much research at our fingertips. So I would implore everyone to just look for a qualified paper online. I know that's not everyone's bite sized little morsel that makes things easy, but that's what I do. For example, I'd really like to call out an article done by the Journal of cleaner production. So this article is called, it's a long one. So hold on, hold out with me, soil organic carbon sequestration rates in vineyard, agro ecosystems under different soil management practices, and the important part a meta analysis.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:51 

Oh, my God, I am, my heart is pitter patter, like, I need I want that I need to read that. I'm not being silly. I mean, like, that's, I've been waiting for that. Right? You know, we were talking about what was only done in Italy, and there was only done a greener building, or it's like, Well, how about this, you know?

 

Brianna Beighle  23:07 

Exactly. And that's, that's what makes it important is like, the fact that it takes all these locations and then distills down, like, what's location specific to what actually matters. So I'd really recommend everyone to read that paper. Outside of that, like I said, I've really just, I've just been googling, finding all that I can, there's so many resources out there that were unaware. I know that, for example, the IWCA has some resources out there.

 

Craig Macmillan  23:35 

Who's the IWCA?

 

Brianna Beighle  23:36 

International wineries, for climate action. Sorry to throw acronyms without defining them down?

 

Craig Macmillan  23:42 

No, that's all right. That's one that a lot of us haven't heard.

 

Brianna Beighle  23:45 

They are a collection of wineries that are coming together to try and create a membership tiers for kind of emissions. And based on the amount of onsite energy production that you have, I'd say I'm not the expert in these guys. I'm really actually not an expert in any of the certifications. I'll say that flat out, like we kind of talked about, I'm coming from the kind of science analytical side and these folks are too. So I say use them as a resource. But also take a grain of salt if you see a study that only mentions one property, and that property seems really out there. That's why things like this meta analysis are really are really important and, and look at kind of like the scientific, I like to use universities and research institutions. That's just me because I know that there is a peer reviewed process for their research. And so I have a lot of trust in those. So while a lot of these websites for sustainability certificates, have good references, they may have a lot of resources. I always go to the hard science, but again, that's just the way that my brain works. For those of you who might need bite size, I'd say I had to maybe maybe SIP, Sustainability in Practice.

 

Craig Macmillan  24:57 

Thank you. Yeah, and I would like to kind of underline that there's, there's amazing amount of stuff that's out there. That's really good quality and is not necessarily expensive. There's ResearchGate, a lot of folks will put their work up on there some things on Science Direct or free, others are not. 

 

Brianna Beighle  25:15 

I think of that. So meta analysis, I believe that's on Science Direct. And

 

Craig Macmillan  25:19 

Then something that I've learned again, because we kind of get I kind of opened my mind. This is a while back. But you know, farming in Texas might have more to do with forming California than one might think. And the research that somebody is doing in the Finger Lakes region may have more applications to your your vineyards in Italy than you might think. And so there's really great extension services around the United States that have enology and viticulture specialists. Now, there's nothing wrong with going outside your home area, as not just California, if you're working in New York, you can look all over the place. Those folks not only are they doing, I mean, they're doing the science, but they're also doing applied science. So they're looking at things that growers or, or winemakers are dealing with. But they're also part of their mission is to translate it to an audience that needs it. So you don't always have to find yourself in the weeds knee deep in technical jargon. But it is good to follow that stuff. The other thing I would encourage folks, if you're afraid of reading a scientific paper, which I hope that you're not, if there's a word that you don't know, just keep reading, that's how I learned how to do it. Just don't stop read, just keep going and then get to the end, or read the introduction and read the conclusion and then go from there.

 

Brianna Beighle  25:28 

Even the nerd that I read the introduction in the conclusion, sometimes it might be cheating, but I think it puts you in the context to think about and think about it in the right way.

 

Craig Macmillan  26:36 

Yeah, when I when I got my training that was we were taught to write that way. Write the introduction in the conclusion first, and then write the rest of whatever it is that you're working on. Seemed a little backward, but it was like no, this is this is what people are gonna read, first of all, and secondly, you need to know your starting you need to know where you're going. Most of these academics are trained to write like that. So you can get a lot of information without having to get too crazy. If there's one takeaway, if there's one thing, one piece of advice, or one resource or one idea, one thing that you would tell growers and winemakers and managers have all sorts around this topic of carbon footprint greenhouse gas emission reduction, what would it be?

 

Brianna Beighle  27:13 

The one thing that I would say is we have all created climate change. We are all part of climate change, whether that's in our personal lives, whether that's in our business lives, that doesn't mean that we should run away with it with fear. That means we have the power to create progress, and we just need to make the decision to do it. So I will leave it on your hands to find the way that you can make an impact.

 

Craig Macmillan  27:41 

That's fantastic. Thank you so much. Our guest today has been Brianna Biegley. She is assistant winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company and she's an MBA student in the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley, working with a focus on sustainability. Thank you so much for being here.

 

Brianna Beighle  27:54 

Thank you. This was wonderful.

 

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

While grape production does not require extensive water use and the majority of vineyards in the Pacific North West are drip irrigated, drought conditions in recent years have led growers to seek more efficiencies to reduce water use. Pete Jacoby, Professor of Crops and Soil Sciences at Washington State University knows that in a traditional drip irrigated vineyard, water is lost through evaporation plus plants loose about 90 percent of the water they take up through transportation. Most sub-surface micro-irrigation is done with buried lines which are easily clogged in fine silty loam soils or damaged by rodents. So, he is partnering with commercial grower sto test a different sub-surface irrigation system - vertically placed PVC pipe.

By placing pipes at one, two, three, and four feet, the experiment tested water reduction from 60 percent all the way down to 15 percent of what was typically delivered through above ground irrigation. Researchers discovered that this changed the vine root architecture from 18 inches all the way down to two and three feet. Plus, grape quality could be sustained with significantly lower water applications. Using these promising results, Pete is now testing white varieties and how sub-surface micro-irrigation impacts nutrient management.

References:

• 63: Evaluate and Maintain Your Irrigation System (podcast)
• Advancing Water Use Efficiency in Vineyards with Sub-surface Micro-Irrigation Techniques
• Assessing Impacts of Direct Root-Zone Irrigation on Grapevine Physiology
• Ceres Imaging
• Direct Root Zone Watering (video)
• Irrigation Best Management Practices
• New irrigation system can cut vineyard water usage by 35 percent
• Pete Jacoby
• SIP Certified

Get More

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

What, bury charcoal in the vineyard? Biochar is a specialized form of charcoal made from waste woody biomass at high temperature in the absence of oxygen. We know soil organic matter is important for the health of any crop. It turns out the use of charwood (biochar) goes back to ancient civilizations and it can be found naturally in soils from fire events.

Doug Beck, Science Officer at Monterey Pacific in Monterey California, recently conducted a four-year trial to test the impacts of biochar and compost as soil amendments on wine grape growth, water use, yield, and water quality. This is an excerpt from his presentation at the Sustainable Ag Expo in November 2020. This fascinating trial showed that the addition of biochar and compost to the soil improves nutrient efficiency, improves water holding capacity, and positively impacted yields.

References:

• 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar (Podcast)
• “Biochar increases vineyard productivity without affecting grape quality: Results from a four years field experiment in Tuscany” | Scholarly article
• California Biochar Association
• “The Conservation Burn Technique” | Vineyard Team Technical Article
• SIP Certified
• Sonoma Biochar Initiative
• Sustainable Ag Expo
• Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

Jackie Dresser, Viticulture Extension Support Specialist at the Lake Erie Regional Grape Program talks about why estimating vineyard yields is so difficult and the methods she and her team are experimenting with to reach the Holy Grail of estimates that are within five percent of the final harvest. In part two of this two part interview, Jackie explored the golden question: how many samples and how big. She talks about how they sought a reasonable sample size and the future of crop estimation.

References:

• Efficient Vineyard website
• Lake Erie Regional Grape Program website
• Predicting Harvest Yield in Juice and Winegrape Vineyards | Paolo Sabbatini, Imed Dami, G. Stanley Howell
• Theory and Assumptions Behind Sampling | Craig Macmillan
• Vineyard Yield Estimation | Brittany Kom & Michelle Moyer, WSU

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: A label can provide a lot of information about a wine. The next time you walk down the wine aisle, look for common terms and symbols like vintage, place of origin, percent alcohol, and even the SIP certified logo.

[00:00:12] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] Many labeling requirements in the United States are defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. In this week's marketing tip, we are giving you a green wine glossary. Five common wine designations, defined, so you'll wonder no longer.

[00:00:45] Number one is vegan. Not every wine fits the vegan lifestyle. During the winemaking process, small particles can cause haziness or unwanted flavor properties. Winemakers can add a fining agent that will bind to these tiny particles and make them large enough to be filtered out. Many fining agents are animal based. Egg whites, casein, and gelatin. Wine that was fined with any of these materials cannot be considered vegan. Vegan wines include those that were either fined with a non animal based agent. Like bentonite clay, or not find at all.

[00:01:19] Number two is natural. There is no official or regulated definition of natural wine. That being said, most understand it as a wine that was made through a minimal intervention, no additive approach. Natural wines are fermented with native yeasts versus adding yeast. They cannot be filtered or fined, nor can winemaking additives be used, except for a small amount of sulfur pre bottling. If you are told that the wine you're drinking is natural, remember to ask what it means.

[00:01:48] Number three is organic. Wine must meet several requirements in order to be labeled as an organic wine. The vineyard must be certified organic, the winemaking process must be certified organic, and the final product must contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, no additives, and no preservatives. Please note that wine made with organic grapes are not the same as organic wines. While this definition means that a hundred percent of the grapes used were certified organic, Other ingredients in the wine do not have to be organic, but do note that they cannot be genetically engineered. Another thing to keep in mind is that organic designation varies between countries.

[00:02:25] Number four is biodynamic. The biodynamic farming principle is guided by nature's rhythms and the understanding that the vineyard is a self contained ecosystem where all elements live and work together. Like organic, synthetic inputs are prohibited in biodynamic farming. But unlike any other program, the timing of biodynamic practices aligns with the lunar and celestial cycles. This is because of the belief that moon phases in planetary positions affect the flow of sap and energy in the vines, and that there is value in keeping practices in sync with these forces. Demeter International is the most recognized certification body for biodynamic wines. For a wine to bear the seal, the grapes must be grown in adherence to the biodynamic principles, and the wine must be made through certified biodynamic processes.

[00:03:12] And number five is sustainable in agriculture. Sustainability means adhering to practices that protect social and environmental health while enhancing economic vitality. sustainably grown grapes are farmed similarly to organic and biodynamic grapes. All programs seek to protect human and environmental health through reducing inputs and conserving. And regenerating natural resources where sustainability differs is that it looks beyond the farm and into the business itself, including worker safety, community relationships, continuing education and accounting and budgeting, just to name a few of the areas that certification bodies like SIP certified address in the standards. Certification also extends from the vineyard and into the winery.

[00:03:55] Did you know that your wine can include the SIP certified seal on the label if it's made with 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether it is estate or purchased? Simply go to SIP certified. org to apply today. So your customers will know that your wine was made through practices that protect the people and the planet.

[00:04:13] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources:

• *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***
• Apply for SIP Certified Wine
• Marketing Tips eNewsletter
• Sustainable Story | Print
• Sustainable Story | Electronic

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet 
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

As a wine producer, you owe it to yourself to talk about your sustainable practices as much as you can. Amanda Wittstrom Higgins, Principal at Full Cup Solutions explains that you never know what unique story about your brand will engage your next consumer, trade account, team member, or press writer. Use video and photos to capture specific practices including cover cropping, reusing barrels, and community donations. With a bank of digital collateral, you can easily bring practices to life online. Amanda shares simple and effective staff training tools, how to quickly build rapport with clients, and why sharing your story makes you stand out in the marketplace. 

Resources:

• 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer
• 104: How to Tell Your Story on Instagram
• 132: Are you Talking About your Sustainability Efforts? | Marketing Tip Monday
• 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine
• 176: What's your Sustainable Story? | Marketing Tip Monday
• Amanda’s Instagram
• Amanda’s LinkedIn page
• Dream Big Darling  - Amanda’s non-profit
• Full Cup Solutions
• Full Cup Solutions Instagram
• Wine Speak Paso
• Seasons of Sustainability – SIP Certified
• SIP Certified Eco-Chart
• SIP Certified Marketing Tips e-Newsletter
• Sustainable Story Worksheet - Electronic  | Print

References:

Vineyard Team Programs:

• Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate
• SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  
• Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year
• Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Get More

Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.  

Transcript

Craig Macmillan  0:00 

Today our guest is Amanda Wittstrom Higgins she is the Principal of Full of Cup Solutions. And we're gonna be talking about sustainability communication for wineries and vineyards. Thanks for being on the show, Amanda.

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  0:10 

Oh, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Craig.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:13 

First of all, tell us a little bit about what you do. What is Full Cup Solutions do?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  0:16 

Thanks for asking Craig Full Cup Solutions is a strategic advising company aimed at elevating agriculture and the beverage industry, I work with companies to help uncover their greatest gifts and tell their stories to customers and partners, all while making their company more efficient from an operational perspective is really just coming in and acting as an advisor.

 

Craig Macmillan  0:39 

So what roles do sustainability efforts play within a company and beyond considering resources? So you're coming in and you're helping people kind of find ways of kind of telling their story is kind of how I understand it. A lot of companies are doing things internally, what's the benefit? Or what are the roles of things to take it outside the company?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  0:56 

It's a great question. So sustainability is a really important element of most companies. And I think I've grown up as a farmer and worked in the wine and beverage industry for the last 15 years, both on a national scale as well as direct to consumer. And I think that there's a real opportunity for brands to stand out in the marketplace, through sharing their stories of sustainability, you can stand out in the marketplace, you can stand up to prospective employees, and really just stand out as a farming community, which I think is really, really important. You have to remember that close to 20% of wine consumers live in five metropolitan areas. So the majority of the world

 

Craig Macmillan  1:42 

Wow!

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  1:42 

It's pretty crazy. And actually close to 50% live in 25. metropolitan areas. So it's really interesting when you think about it, from a consumer perspective how little most people know about farming. And when we talk sustainability, Craig, especially at the Vineyard Team, and for SIP, it's not just farming practices, you know, it's social responsibility, its economic viability, it's a very holistic approach, which I love, and I think is very encompassing of great business. Beyond simply conserving and those resources, I think that there's huge advantages for companies to talk about what they do, not only in the field, but within their own communities. And for the industry at large. I like to look at it as an overlap between social and environmental progress, and financial gain. It's a shared values opportunity, where you can do good things and still have a direct impact on your company, as well as the community.

 

Craig Macmillan  2:43 

I think you actually I've kind of already moved into this, but I know that you like to talk about the farming aspect of things you come from a farming background. And obviously, folks that live in these more urban metropolitan areas really don't have a connection to that when it comes to communicating a company's sustainability story. Why focus on the farming as opposed to other areas of the operation, let's say like, the winery where they're doing water, conservation of the solar power, or something like that, what what's special about farming?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  3:10 

As a producer, you owe it to yourself to talk about as much as you can. So you never really know what's going to engage the person on the other side. And I think that in the wine business, and in the farming business, we tend to talk about what we know about and that's the product, right? It's how we made it, it's how we farmed. But some of the things that are really magical that captivate the consumer that could attract your next employee could attract the next media reviewer to write about you, or perhaps your distribution or retail partner are things that you might not realize are as special as they really are. Because they're so close to you. Farming is one of those things that because the majority of consumers and the majority of the world doesn't come from a farming background. It's a little bit of a mystery to most people. And my experience is farmers are really like magical people. They deeply care about the environment, their salt of the earth, you know, it gets me emotional, just thinking about it. And that's actually one of the reasons that I launched my company, Full Cup Solutions was because I felt like I kept seeing the wine industry decline. And wine is such a beautiful beverage. It's you know, it's taking the best parts of our environment of farming and it's sharing them with people around community and meals, which I think is the fabric of what this world needs to become a better place. I really feel that wine has the opportunity of being bring people together. But you know, when you're talking about farming as opposed to other areas of the operation, I think you need to talk about all of it. But I don't think you should forget how special farming is in particular. It can be a great way to stand out it can be a great way to educate the the greater population that doesn't have regular exposure to agriculture.

 

Craig Macmillan  5:04 

Right, right. I think that's fantastic. And I agree with you, there's a magical quality to this. That was what drew me into the industry was being exposed to grape vines for the first time. And I was it was magical. It really was. And I have, I'd love to have that experience. But I can introduce people to that there. It's just a magical thing. the winemaking process is magical. And like you said, there's this there's a social glue that can come from sharing something like wine, which is, again, a really nice part of the whole picture. So consumers are definitely interested in sustainability. They're also interested in other things related to wine product, what would you say are the top seven or so things that consumers care about most? When it comes to a wine product?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  5:41 

Well, I think that sustainability is certainly important. It's towards the top, I'd say it's in the top 10. But it's not number one, when you are dealing with what's most important, I think, you know, quality is number one, quality is number one, price is also very important, packaging, brand story, the service and the experience that a consumer receives, the place that the product comes from, and sustainability. And I think that knowing what a consumer wants is the first step to helping you stand out. So it's not simply all or nothing with any one topic with any one type of content, it's really making sure that you know, your plan your communication strategy, and that, you know, the fabric of your company really encompasses all the things that are important to your consumer, to your prospective employees. And, you know, to your shareholders, constituents.

 

Craig Macmillan  6:32 

I want to come back to something you said a couple of times that I think is really, really interesting. And it applies definitely to my life. In attracting employees. Tell me more about that. Because that's the you're the first person I've talked to that's included that as part of a sustainability messaging.

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  6:45 

It's critical. If you look at how to create a sustainable company, right? It's about people, people are incredibly important, it's important for you to realize that you can almost not accomplish any goal without quality people, some of the things that you may be doing and maybe taking for granted, could be something that attracts those people to your company, the next generation, I think all generations want to be part of something that special that's got longevity, you know, that stands for something bigger than simply selling a product and, and receiving cash flow. So making sure that you're aware of it gets you one step closer.

 

Craig Macmillan  7:24 

I think you're absolutely right. That's a really interesting idea. I think having folks that are attracted to a company based on kind of like shared values, and they're kind of in line with the overall kind of orientation of the organization, I think is huge. And you have a lot of retention is another part of that you know, someone who's going to stay for a while, can you give me examples of some of the things that maybe you've recommended to your clients in some of these areas, things that were kind of actionable?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  7:48 

Depending on what channel you're looking at, to engage, whether it's social media, there's certainly options, I think bringing your practices to life is really important through video and imagery. And so I would suggest making sure that you're documenting even some of the most simple procedures, whether it's like, hey, we've got farm chickens on the ranch. And, you know, this is why they benefit soil health. And we actually donate the eggs to, you know, the local school or, or whatever it might that sustainability and a number of factors. And it may seem really small, but you never know how you're going to capture that next person that could be interested in you in your brand and your story. Something else would be like right now beautiful cover crops, right? You've got that sweet pea blend that you're seeing all over the place. Now why? Why is that important? How does that help with soil health, water conservation, wildlife habitat, I love seeing people foraging for natural resources, whether that's an experience for their consumers or something that they're enjoying, you know, just as as a fun event, or even just from an educational perspective, animal identification and discovery of plant. Teaching and sharing with the world the resources that you have, and those things that are important to you as a company from a farming perspective. Now you could also go and talk about like, reusable, whether it's a fallen tree and why fallen trees are you know, a great source of firewood or what are you doing with you know, your old barrel bongs? Are you making dog toys? Are you reusing barrel planters from other for for some other purpose or gifting them to your wine club? from a community perspective? Are you sponsoring youth teams? Are you volunteering for mentorship or educational opportunities for your employees? So there's a number of different things that you can do to provide examples and that's to a consumer. Now, if you're looking at say that the trade or accounts or national retailers if perhaps you're your wine producer, you know, this is a really important category within a lot of the national you know, retail set as well as on premise and off premise on independent making sure that you've got Whatever those principles are, and those fabric of of sustainability for you making sure that it's present and available, and you know, and recorded digitally, so that you can share that with others is really important. And from a media perspective, you never know what is going to engage the next journalist. And so by having these types of activities available, either on your website or social media, or as part of your email campaigns, you know, you might just touch someone in a way that's very authentic to you. And meaningful to them. And only good can come from it. Right. And I, I highly suggest, you know, authenticity is the only way to carry yourself in this sustainability perspective. But yeah, absolutely touch people in all sorts of different ways.

 

Craig Macmillan  10:46 

So we have all these many channels, we have social media, I see a lot of things in print, in terms of like travel magazines, or local guides, I see a lot of material and tasting rooms in terms of posters, or pamphlets, or photos and things kind of what's the strategy you might recommend to folks in terms of using these different channels?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  11:05 

One of the old, the old sayings was that you have to touch someone seven times before they purchase from you. And that statistic has been increased to 16 times.

 

Wow!

 

It's amazing. It's amazing, the world is full of content, I would say, do as much as you can, and make sure that you are utilizing that information in a multitude of two ways and repurposing it for your different channels, as you mentioned. So, you know, I love video, I love imagery, I think that, you know, a picture's worth 1000 words and a videos worth a million. So if we can bring people into our farms or into our business to showcase what we're doing from a sustainable perspective, I think that that adds an incredible amount of value. Social media is a great way to integrate that for very low cost. email campaigns are really important building your your email list for your true fans. Blogs are really terrific. And then making sure you got you know, sustainability sprinkled in throughout your website, during your in person experience, you know, making sure that that's part of your staff training, your team really understands that this is a point of distinction for us as a company, and this is part of our values. And it needs to be mentioned, and it's what customers are looking for.

 

Craig Macmillan  12:24 

Do you think there's particular areas around sustainability that consumers are most interested in? And are there particular areas that they're probably the least familiar with?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  12:33 

The social equality aspect that the SIP program touches on is something that not everyone thinks of when they think of sustainability, and that's something that I really love. And over my years in the industry, that's something that gets a lot of raised eyebrows, when you mentioned, the preservation of natural resources is really important. There's certainly several other programs that touch on that. But I think that social equality is really important, and especially in this day and age, how we treat our our people is, is something that's very important.

 

Craig Macmillan  13:05 

How do you do that? And the reason I asked in such a fashion is you're right, that's an area that's often overlooked, and is insanely important. And I'm just trying to imagine, in my mind, how do I how do I convey that to people? What's the framing here?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  13:20 

Well, I think it has to be factual, you know, I think that it has to be something that's near and dear to your heart. And whether it's caring about people within your team within your community, or a bigger cause, it needs to be something that, you know, that's actually true. And it's not like you lead with it from a communication perspective. But Must! Charities is a great example of an organization that a lot of members within your group contribute to, and it's about really helping a specific region that is in need, and bettering that part of our community. So if there are things that you're passionate about whether it's certifications for your tasting room team to have WSECT level one or level two, or perhaps you create an internship program, or you're collaborating with the university, or perhaps there is, you know, some type of a, of a nonprofit that you align with or that you like to promote from within and, and that your average tenure for an employee is X amount of years, I think those are all things that can be talked about from a social responsibility, perspective that are important to consumers and, and just help create that link to your brand. From a sustainability perspective that get gets people to engage long term.

 

Craig Macmillan  14:39 

You've mentioned a number of really, really great things in terms of the where consumers are coming from, how do we find these things out? How do we find out what consumers are interested in?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  14:48 

Well, I think asking would be great. Asking though, you know,

 

Craig Macmillan  14:54 

I'm chuckling because that's one of my things where people be talking about this or that and I'll say, Well, did you ask them They're like, No. And I'm like, Well, why don't you do that? Why don't you go ask him what they want? Or ask them what they're afraid of, or whatever it is. And does this take place like in the tasting room? Is a survey information? Is this, like surveys on Facebook? Or little quizzes on Instagram would? How do we talk to people?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  15:15 

I think one on one engagement and in the tasting room is a great way to start, I think that you're always going to get authentic insights. When you're in person, you know, whether it's your media partner, or your trade partner, your distributor partner, or a consumer or a wine club member, or even your staff. I mean, these are great places to start with just asking the question. Surveys are a great tool as well. You know, surveys on social media are also wonderful. But yeah, I would say just start with, hey, what's important to you and go from there.

 

Craig Macmillan  15:49 

Obviously, tasting room staff are going to be huge here. Because of these, this is the interface with the consumer on a one on one way for a lot of folks, what advice do you have around training staff, training your tasting room staff?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  16:00 

Oh, my gosh, I have so many ideas. You know, I think that, like many consumers, a lot of the hospitality staff that works in tasting rooms is probably not that familiar with farming, and viticulture, especially if you are in, you know, a rural environment, which most wine regions are, you know, I think having a solid top notch staff training program is really, really important. I even like to recommend kind of a conversation flowchart for when someone asks this, this is, this might be a great way to respond. Trying to develop rapport quickly with your guests is something that's really important and figuring out what are they most looking for, in this experience, you know, some people are just coming in to taste and enjoy perhaps a companionship with whomever that they they came with. And other people are deeply inquisitive. And if those individuals are deeply inquisitive, and that person, or can that individual offer a rich experience. And the best way to do that is to make sure that you've got tremendous assets from a training perspective available, whether that's tech sheet, or even the really like your eco chart that you've got on your website that talks about the difference between sustainability and biodynamic and organic, organic, from a certification perspective is really important. So just making sure you've got a lot of different assets and tools in a toolbox, ready for your staff. Something else that I love to have is, again, the videos and the pictures are really important. One thing that you all have on your website is like a seasonal sustainability chart, which I think is really terrific. Because if you can create some type of a email campaign or group text message, or whatever it is talking about the seasonality of sustainability, from the vineyard perspective, I think that can be really powerful. So it's not the same conversation shouldn't be happening with guests, you know, throughout the year, it should be seasonal, and that makes it more interesting. And so operating images and videos based on those seasonal activities are really important. Those are just a few things that I'd recommend.

 

Craig Macmillan  18:11 

So it sounds like it would be a good idea to have as part of your regular staff meetings, having maybe folks who work in those areas, vineyard managers, or whoever coming in and just kind of touching base and making sure that people kind of know what's going on out there. I'd like to seasonality, I think that's important because it does also communicate the whole agriculture inland, and climate and season being important. Because a lot of folks don't understand kind of how that works. I think they think of wind kind of as a factory product, like, well, we'll just make some when there's so much more that has to happen. Before we get to that point. In the end. It's not a question simply of what are we doing, but also how are we doing it? That's the sustainability part of it. What do you see in the future? Yeah, what do you see coming down the line for wine companies in terms of what the landscape looks like around consumers and sustainability? I think people are getting more interested? Are they getting less interested? Are they looking for particular things? Are there particular qualities and products? You mentioned a number of things already, and you need when you look into your crystal ball? What do you what do you see the consumer doing in the future?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  19:10 

Well, I think depending on your brand, and what assets that you see you have whether you are a tasting room, or a winery on land, or perhaps depending on who you are, and what and what your business plan is, I think sustainability needs to be woven into. Personally, I think it's a it's a really important part of how we as farmers are going to move forward in the industry and in the landscape. The current, you know, beverage landscape is that this is a real way for us to distinguish ourselves as advocates for the environment as advocates for social responsibility and for good business. And so I think that there needs to be a continued focus on sustainability and our efforts to help not only protect Mother Nature, but you know, protect and help grow our teams and our communities. Think that there's no have meant towards that from a retail perspective, from a media perspective and an experience perspective. Truthfully, I think that consumers are dying for authenticity, they're oftentimes really wanting to learn. And Mother Nature is so magical. So I think that anytime you can, that you can offer kind of a peek behind the curtain, whether that's what you're doing from a farming perspective, or how you're, you're uplifting your community or your employees, that you're always going to have people who are interested. And you can only say, why don't you buy my product or my product is Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc or whatever, or this is my label so many times. I mean, you've got to encourage people with interesting content, that should be part of a healthy sales and marketing campaign. It's just a way to engage people in an authentic way that that helps lift farmers.

 

Craig Macmillan  20:57 

What is one thing that you would tell folks in the industry regarding this topic, one, one piece of advice, or one insight that you would tell people?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  21:06 

Well, I have two.

 

Craig Macmillan  21:07 

Okay, I'll give you I'll let you have to.

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  21:09 

Okay, thank you, I appreciate that. I would say don't forget how special you are, and how everyday practices of farming and caring for your community and team might distinguish you in the marketplace. So often people want to perhaps play follow the leader. But what makes you stand out is what makes you special, and that's usually individual. And then secondly, I would encourage people to remember, most consumers are not like you, most consumers don't come from a farming and agricultural production background. Make sure that when you're putting together your plan, when you're talking with your consumers, when you're crafting what your experience looks like that you realize that most people are not like you and that other things might be important to them, or more relevant and open to engaging in different ways that perhaps are not as intuitive because it might just be what sets you apart.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:06 

Where can people find out more about you?

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  22:09 

Wonderful, while full cup solutions.com would be a great place or on Instagram for cup solutions. Yeah, love to connect, if you'd like insight or thoughts or just to reach out and I'd be happy to hear.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:25 

Fantastic. Well, that's all the time we've got for today. Amanda, I want to thank you this has been a really fun conversation for me and I hope for you.

 

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins  22:30 

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

 

Craig Macmillan  22:35 

Again, Amanda Wickstrom Higgins principal of full cup Solutions has been our guest today.

 

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Some 25 to 30 percent of vineyards in Washington state have nematode population densities that are considered damaging. Nematodes have a slow, chronic negative impact on vine health. Plants have less foliage and visible weak spots in the field.

Inga Zasada, Research Plant Pathologist with the USDA Agricultural Research Service is particularly interested in nematode management because Washington is mostly own rooted vines. These vines are highly susceptible to nematodes and farmers need to consider soil health with the imminent replanting of vines in the next 10 to 15 years. Most research on nematodes comes out of California where the nematode populations are different. Current management options are limited to rootstocks or preplant fumigation. Inga and her team are working on practical research for growers including identifying where different types of  nematodes are in relation to the vine and a degree day model for nematode life stages so if chemical becomes available it can be used property.

References:

• Electrifying nematodes and pathogens! | Riga, Crisp, McComb, Weiland, Zasad
• How Low Can They Go? Plant-Parasitic Nematode Distribution in a Washington Vineyard | East, Moyer, Madden, Zasada
• Inga Zasada
• SIP Certified
• USDA ARS Horticulture Happenings
• Viticulture Research from Washington State University with Dr. Moyer (Podcast)
• Zasada Lab

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Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.