Dr. Jonathan Bricker is a Professor of Public Health Science at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center and University of Washington in Seattle.

A recipient of over $25 million dollars in research funding, and author of over 110 scientific publications, Dr. Bricker’s research focuses on developing and testing health habits that prevent cancer. He has been enjoying sauna since his first exposure in 1991 as an exchange student in Oulu, Finland.

He now enjoys his backyard sauna which he constructed with his family and friends.

It’s always a great treat to Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, as opposed to via Zoom, as was the case with many previous episodes during Corona. But today, Jonathan and I were able to sweat it out together in my Minneapolis backyard sauna. As you will hear, Jonathan was in town to visit a studio film set to record a master class on how to quit smoking.

In the SaunaTimes post introducing this podcast episode, you’ll find a link to Jonathan’s Bricker’s 2014 Ted Talk entitled “The Secret to Self Control” which, by the way, has over 7 million views. We discuss “willingness” and its association and application to sauna and contrast therapy.

Today on Sauna Talk, we are warmed to welcome Saara Lehtonen, founder and lead proprietor of Kaurilan Sauna in Helsinki, Finland.

In Finland, those well familiar to sauna, which includes just about everyone, will tell you that “every sauna has its own soul.” And for those not convinced, or those who may be at all suspect to this fact, I encourage you to get to Helsinki and pay a visit to Kaurilan Sauna.

Before we get started, I’d like to extend a big thank you to Samuli, owner of Iki Stoves, who brought me to Kaurilan Sauna to meet Saara. A wood fired Iki Stove was idling away as we arrived. And here we see Samuli delivering to Saara a sauna spoon for her Iki sauna.

I spent an hour with Saara, and there were moments in this interview, where I was heavy with emotion. This was about my 40th sauna in less than 10 days, so I was somewhat wonderfully delirious as it was. And Kaurilan Sauna is a spiritual place. Our conversation was full and affecting and the sauna elves were present. As we shared some mutual fervent sauna passion, well, a few waves of emotion overtook me. So, apologies, and yet with no editing, you’ll have an opportunity to meet this extraordinary entrepreneur, saunapreneur, saunameister, sauna creator, sauna inventor, sauna proprietor.

Kaurilan sauna is Saara’s sanctuary which she opens to share her special place with others.

It is quiet, and close to nature. No electricity, but candle lit, exclusively, where guests leave their mobile phones alone for a coupe hours of sauna sanctity. This is a country sauna, right inside the city of Helsinki. Reachable by tram.

“There is something this place does to people, and it must come out. You want to share what you are carrying inside yourself.” Oh, how right she is.

We discuss the decline of public saunas in Finland, and then starting about 10 years ago, when Saara created Kaurilan Sauna, we start to see the renaissance of public saunas, the “urban sauna revival.” There is the resurgence of the few old school saunas still in operation in Helsinki (Hermanni, Kotiharjun) hold overs from when there were as many as 150 public saunas in the city proper. And there is the birth of new public saunas in bar/restaurant settings (Uusi, Loyly) as well as the free range Sompasauna: “we all own it, and nobody owns it.”

“Sauna is a place where you can imagine.”

Saara has imagined and created over 100 products. She started making candles, as candles are the only source of light in her sauna. She started making linen towels, and selling them to guests. She started developing skin care products, not just because she has delicate skin. “All these products are born in the sauna.”

Product innovation happens from working with ladies. Listening to their needs and trying out her products with her guests. Refining.

Creating products as part of sauna works because in sauna, her mind is at peace. She has the time to think and listen. Free time to think and apply the DIY ethos.

How does Saara have the time to run her public sauna, as well as run production and distribution of 100 sauna related products?

“When you do what you feel is important, or what you love, it doesn’t make you tired.”

Please welcome to Sauna Talk the tireless creator of soulful sauna, Saara Lehtonen

On this episode of Sauna Talk, we are able to visit with Dr. Zestcott about a current study under way regarding sauna mental health studies for the Sauna Research Institute. This is a survey based study analyzing the mental health benefits to sauna. The link to the sauna mental health studies work is here.

It’s particularly interesting to learn how Colin has a keen experience and understanding of what we know of as “good sauna.” The real sauna with good heat and proper cool downs which can include a range of coldness including a lake swim, cold plunge, snow angels, a bucket of water over ones’ head. Colin is reporting in from Duluth Minnesota where he teaches at the College of St. Scholastica, a place where a high of one degree above zero Fahrenheit is not uncommon.

research surrounding sauna mental health studies

We learn about the budding tree of scientific mental health studies. How survey based work follows certain protocols. We discuss how sauna can potentially be applied to help people in areas such as anxiety and PTSD. We draw upon some work that has taken place with the Native American Sweatlodge and veterans. Much more can be done with global in broad ranging collaboration.

I’m doing my best to get the word out on this study as the more participants involved means more sound data to build upon for the study as well as next phase of research.

So, I hope you are able to respond to the request for participants for this study. The email address is saunastudy@gmail.com .

Please welcome to Sauna Talk Dr. Colin Zestcott.

Today we learn about the International Sauna Association.

Risto has been taking sauna since one month old. He has always been interested in taking good saunas.

His wife tells him that he is “married to sauna.”

He built two saunas in Zambia.

Jijijjimjilbang was very popular in Korea, but they are disappearing as a public bathing place.

The definition of sauna:

“Sauna is a room, wood paneled, where you have a stove and stones, temperature measured at shoulder level, 80-100 degrees (175 – 212 degrees f). Relatively low humidity, which is controlled by introducing water onto the sauna rocks.”

Risto has visiting many saunas in the United States.

We are trying to get standards for sauna to avoid misleading information about what sauna is and what sauna is not.

The biggest player in the sauna space are from Germany. If you try to sell “infrared sauna” in Germany, you will get fined. At a recent spa exhibition in Germany, the Intabad Exhibition Organization authorities forced a Chinese exhibitor to take down their signs saying “infrared sauna” and rename them “infrared cabin.”

It is much cheaper to build an infrared thing. Less electricity. You are creating the heat in your body in an entirely different way.

Harvia is a public company based in Finland. 25% of their business is in the space of steam rooms and infrared cabins. They are in a better place to define the meaning of sauna vs.

Risto: “I am getting old, so it’s important for me to choose good saunas.”

Our mutual friend, Mikkel Aaland: “In America, 90% of the saunas are bad, and the other 10% are worse.”

Before World War II, there were 350 public saunas in Helsinki. Today there are a few. The urban sauna revival in Finland is . The Cultural Sauna in Helsinki is built on the tradition of older public saunas. Uusi sauna is new. Operated by Kimmo. Aarla. The original Helsinki public sauna 1927.

Why is wood fired sauna preferred?

You can have a good electrical sauna, but you need many stones. Electric saunas produce positive ions. When you put water on the hot iron, there is coming lots of positive ions, which are making you tired. Professer Graeffe wrote a study in 1974 about positive ions. When water is hitting hot iron.

The best stove is a smoke sauna. No iron at all.

Electrical toasters. Swedish company Tylo was destroying this market. Very quick heating. You are heating air, not mass. Slowly they were using more stones.

Beauty companies are selling masks that create negative ions through water. The masks are “making you 20 years younger.”

Do you get tired when you sauna?

Bad ventilation!

The first law of Loyly: your feet are above the stones. And the height of your ceiling is such that you can use vihta (whisks).

Saunas are built too low. There must be enough air to help with circulation.

A big crack along the bottom of the door. 10cm or 5″

Architects are not following the rules and standards for good sauna building standards.

The Finnish Sauna Society

Founded in 1937, from people looking to build sauna for friends. Financing was obtained by the government as two weeks out of the year the saunas are available for use by other people. 4,500 members. One of the largest societies in the World. All private people. Membership can be applied for. No rules for membership, except you must know two members who have been members for at least 5 years.

40,000 visitors per year. Members can bring up to two guests per session, except Fridays are visitors only.

George Bush Senior was there. The previous US Ambassador, Bruce Oreck 6 years the ambassador of Finland, is a real sauna lover. He hates the US sauna. He especially loves the smoke sauna. Everywhere he goes he talks about sauna. Though both have ear rings, it is best not to mix up the body guard and the ambassador.

4 smoke saunas. Each one different from the other.

2 wood fired saunas. Single heat.

1 electrical sauna. The idea is that this is for handicapped people.

People are coming to Finnish Sauna Society for the smoke saunas.

The allure of the smoke sauna

The stones are heated directly by fire underneath, until the stones are red hot. The fire is then allowed to burn out from the fire chamber below, and all ash and coals are removed. The sauna hot room is then washed, cleaning the benches from 75-90 degrees c. #3 is the cherished savusauna, getting hotter than 120 degrees c.

6:30 am., the stoves are lit. At around 11:30 am the fires end. 1 pm saunas open. Until 9pm or 10pm.

1,000 kilos of stones. Thermally insulated. The sauna stoves are below. There is a lot of heat capacity in these saunas. The stones have to be hot enough in order to burn off all the hydrocarbons. The heating is stopped when the rocks are hot enough, 650 degrees c.

To heat a smoke sauna is something you have to learn. In terms of construction and operation. A smoke sauna can burn down. If there is a lot of carbon on the walls, and air can pass, it can easily become reddish. If air passes, hydrogen and oxygen mix, creates a chemical reaction: an explosion. A sauna wall can ignite a fair distance away from the stove. No reddish carbon on the wood walls.

Are there any smoke saunas in the United States? UL standardization is making it quite difficult to build smoke saunas.

Saunas around the world

Japan – sauna is very popular. Germany: there are over 10,000 public saunas. Mongolia, Japan, China has a very old type of smoke sauna, in a cave. “Mongolian hot flame sauna.” A very good sauna. They are burning stones inside this cave. Wet sand on the floor. The walls are very thick. Plenty of heat capacity. You are getting very good loyly.

Russia is the biggest country for sauna. 7-10 million saunas. Comparable to the Finnish sauna. The original Russian Banya is very near to the Finnish sauna. There are many very nice public saunas in St. Petersburg. Many Russian Banyas in Russia are controlled by the Russian mafia.

In Japan, sauna has been related to prostitution. Same in China.

Australia: Sauna is very popular. There are many Finnish immigrants in Australia. Sydney and Melbourne, where there were 350,000 Finnish immigrants, moving.

Canada has a reasonable sauna culture. There is a different culture than in the United States.

The first Loyly is always important

Risto’s favorite part of a sauna session: It is common in Finland to have a nap after sauna. Less common now, but still very traditional. Dating back to when Risto was a small child, he would take a 20 minute nap after sauna.

I have not seen any good mobile sauna. Most are bad. They are too low. Your feet are freezing. The Finnish Sauna Society has commissioned a mobile sauna. It his a high structure. We want to make a very good sauna.

Almost Heaven barrel sauna is not good. (sorry!).

Sit in Nature after sauna. It has to be quite quiet. The loyly is good and you have good company. I am having sauna quite a bit with my wife. Luckily she likes sauna.

Research work regarding sauna health benefits

Dr. Jari Laukkanen’s work: “If you go to sauna often enough, and taking sauna hot enough, you are decreasing risk of Alzheimers. Most plausible reason: our veins are more flexible. They think that Alzheimer is coming because your veins in your head are getting stiffer and stiffer. Sauna keeps your veins in flexible position. Results are showing clearly that sauna is helping men. 2,300 men. You cannot find a control group in Finland to test sauna benefits vs. a control group.

Residual benefits of sauna: you are joking more, relaxing more. This clearly has a benefit.

2010 Sauna Congress in Japan: a Japanese researcher has been showing images of the human heart and his work. 1-3 months in his hospital, patients who have had heart attacks are having sauna 90 minutes per day. After this treatment, they are showing normal hearts.

There are several other people who are doing similar things (sauna studies). A guy in Austria. A Russian lady has been doing much of the same research. All these results are in the same direction. This sauna going is healthy. If you are going too often or too hot, that’s not good either.

Logic and reasoning as it relates to “sauna health benefits.” Different from Infrared cabins.

Yes, softer veins is a physical benefit. Cold water: the temperature variation. Is this contributing to sauna health benefits. Sitting outside, ensuring you are completely cooled down, this is also a health benefit.

Financing for sauna studies: it is difficult to secure funding.

Sauna congress in US. Finnish Embassy and North America Sauna Association. New York or Washington, DC. Finnish Embassy.

The traditional sauna culture is important. People don’t have enough time. 2 1/2 hours is the minimum. Young people have to be online all the time. We are looking to have Finnish sauna added to UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage list.

Many important people within ISA. We are sauna lovers. We are doing this kind of work all over the World.

Jamie and Will were ready to put winter behind us, and head up to the shores of the World's largest freshwater lake.

In this episode of Sauna Talk, we hear from the winners of the free weekend package to Larsmont Cottage's Sauna Days!

What they won

Their very own free weekend package to Sauna Days! $504.00 value.

2- NIGHT FREE LODGING AT LARSMONT COTTAGES LAKESIDE SUITE

• Room & Tax Charges Included
• King Bed
• Gas Fireplace
• Microwave & Mini Fridge
• Flatscreen TV
• Private Bath w/ Whirlpool Tub
• Balcony with Lake Superior View

PACKAGES ALSO INCLUDED:

• Unlimited sauna access via multiple saunas onsite
• Unlimited Lake Superior plunge access via largest freshwater lake onsite
• Sauna Lovers’ Social hour & Appetizers
• Saturday Smorgasbord Buffet
• Sauna Enthusiast Gift Basket
• Guided Tour and more!

Today on Sauna Talk, we meet with photographer George Cory, who is documenting the British sauna movement. George Cory is reporting in from Folkestone on the Southeast Coast of England. He is a current master’s student studying photography and is an avid sauna enthusiast.

We catch up with George in his hometown in Great Britain. He is one of the first photographers in the UK to immerse himself in this emerging culture and has so far documented the owners, builders, and users of authentic saunas in the UK. Reflecting the passion of those involved, George takes the opportunity to express the importance of sauna culture. He shares in imagery and dedication how these values are being adopted in Britain.

During our visit, you’ll get to hear from George about the exhibition of his photo project ‘Löyly Life’ in his hometown of Folkestone from Monday 15th – Saturday 20th August. The exhibition will also be the launch for a small run of books created that feature the project. The book includes foreword from sauna owner Sam Glyn-Jones and Q&A with Heartwood Saunas founder Olly Davey.

British Air offers several non stop flights from North America to Britain, but if you can’t make it to the exhibition but would like to secure a copy of the book, please message George on Instagram @georgecory_ . The photo books are priced at £15 (free shipping unless international)!

Welcome to a dream come true: a new community sauna for Duluth, Minnesota.

Setting up for Winter/Spring residency, right next to Lake Superior, partnering with The Inn on Lake Superior, Canal Park, Duluth, MN.

Justin Juntunen’s history of sauna

Meet My friend Justin. He grew up with sauna,  just a toddler on the floor in a bucket like father and grandfather before him. Sauna has been an integral part to his family culture. Growing up in Esko, Minnesota, a small Finnish community twenty minutes south of Duluth. 

Justin says, “I believe my Finnish immigrant ancestors have been great protectors of the cultural treasure of sauna. When they arrived in Duluth over a hundred years ago they were immigrants, they had very little. For the past century us Finns have protected this treasure of sauna. Kept it close. Now we are working to share that tradition.”

Welcome to Finn Town

Here is the place for public sauna, and this is the time in life for Justin to do it. 

Canal Park, where Cedar and Stone is located once was home to the immigrant quarter. Populated with boarding houses, and Finnish immigrants, the locals referred to the area as Finn Town. These immigrants didn’t have the resources to build a sauna at their backyard, they didn’t event own homes yet.

Thus, community saunas were built all over the city. Dotting Duluth’s hillside and on the shores of Lake Superior itself. 

Today we are seeing a revival of this public expression of sauna, but few places have the history like that of Duluth, Minnesota.

There were up to ten community saunas in Duluth, Minnesota in the late 1800s and early 1900s. When you enter Cedar and Stone Justin walks you through this history with images and news clippings on display to help you feel the tradition you are a part of.

Over the years Justin began guiding people through the experience of sauna. Friends, colleagues, anyone who would join for gatherings at the saunas his family has built. And over all these years of hosting and guiding and helping people fall in love with the sauna experience Justin helped to make the sauna understandable to the newcomer. 

Setting the table in language that guests can understand. Bringing them into the story of an experience that is healthy and de-stresses.

Then 9 years ago Justin and his wife traveled to Finland. While there they visited multiple public saunas.

One of which was a floating sauna experience to sauna and swim in the Baltic. Justin recalls, “This is a day I’m going to remember, it was magical. And I thought, if there is ever a city in the US that can do this, it’s Duluth, Minnesota.”

Duluth is burgeoning with world class biking trails, great skiing, the World’s largest freshwater lake. Quick access to nature at every turn. 

Justin discussed his religious and spiritual guidance for to answer the question “What do I really want?”

The answer after two years of asking that question: “I want the flourishing of my city, our land, our people, and anyone who joins us here,” Justin reflects.  

A call and commitment to serve his city, Duluth, Minnesota. What a reason for a sauna!

The Sauna Build

Wanting to commit to his city. Not only was the door being open, but he was being nudged through it. Hundreds of hours and years of commitment on this project. 

We need activators and people to ground the mission for the long haul. Justin thinks in decades not years for this. A decade commitment to help change the temperature of Duluth, Minnesota.

The build process started 10 months ago. Sauna Days 2019, where Justin and I met.

To see a sauna of this caliber is an emotional thing for me, and it isn’t even my sauna. 

A beautiful, well designed sauna. Justin describes it also as an emotional moment, setting up on Lake Superior, and feeling the emotion well up in him: “When you are invited to something bigger than yourself, there is no guarantee that it will happen. And yet it has, and there is a profound sense of awe and gratefulness when that occurs. It brought me to tears.“

Justin describes the process as one where a community has come together to make this happen, builders, artisans, and craftspeople. He says, “Find your partners that believe in your vision and it becomes easier to solve problems. You can break through any issue you find, because you are working together.”

Did I mention it is mobile, but it has a lobby with an 11′ ceiling!

More on the scale of a tiny home than a mobile sauna. Room to breathe, white walls, airy, modern Nordic-inspired design. 

As day turns to night it starts to glow in the hot room. Design elements: curved benches made from 12’ long clear cedar strips, a lot of glass, stove surround, Richlite paper resin exterior material. It’s a marvel.

I asked Justin as I always do to podcast guests: “If you could have a mobile sauna, and bring it anywhere in the world and sauna, where would you choose?”

“Right here.” Justin says without hesitation.

(insert high end photo here)

Sauna Getaway Contest – by end of February 2020

Enter to win a Sauna Getaway package from Cedar and Stone Nordic Sauna sponsored by SaunaTimes. 

WINNER RECEIVES:

• x2 60min guided sauna session passes on the shores of Lake Superior in Duluth, MN. ($98 value)
• x2 Rooftop hot tub and spa assess ($30 value)
• Buy one get one drink package at Vikre Distillery just a few blocks from Cedar and Stone ($10 value)
• $148 value For you and a friend to experience sauna where people have been enjoying community sauna for over 100 years on the shores of Lake Superior.
• Plus One free night at The Inn on Lake Superior, in the shadows of Cedar & Stone Sauna. (some limitations on availability, contact Justin to confirm date you’d like to come up and he’ll reserve your free room for you. ($300 value)
• $448 total value for this experience.

HOW TO ENTER:

1. Share our Facebook or Instagram post of this article and tag three friends.
2. Submissions must be shared by February 29th at 11:59pm CT. 
3. Winner will be selected at random from entries.
4. Winner will be notified and announced Monday, March 2nd, 2020 (Package to be redeemed anytime before Dec. 31st, 2020).

Today on the bench, we are seated between pro football player Brian Peters and Mindstrong project founder Harvey Martin.

“Chasing the edge” is an easy concept. Athletes sustain performance via an aggregation of marginal gains.

From 1-10, how developed is sauna therapy with pro athletes?

Harvey rates it a 5, and Brian rates it a 3 or 4. It is slowly creeping its way into professional sports. It is knocking on the door.

Saunas in NFL locker rooms are large, like 10’x10′. Harrison Smith would hit the cold plunge and then the sauna. Click here to read an article from 2011 detailing how Minnesota Vikings players used cold therapy, and how the saunatimes editorial department back then urged players to introduce themselves to authentic sauna to help make the process more impactful.

Back to Brian Peters: while in Houston, a sports science staff member began to implement hot/cold therapy as a way to help athletes with sleep. Most guys hit the sauna as a relaxing thing. Hot/cold therapy is slowly creeping its way into professional sports.

We know that sauna and heat transmission create neurotransmitters as a focus driver. Heat and cold treatment creates clarity. We are at our most primal state. Take away the science side and focus on the primal side.

You are in your most primal state. Science vs. intuition. Breath is the one constant that follows all performance.

The mental side is subjective. Built through awareness. Sauna creating a higher level of focus.

The mental side is always subjective. It is self awareness. If we can acquire higher levels of focus in an overstimulated world. An ability to slower the respiratory rate. Gauging stress level: take 10 breathes in the cold tub. Less stress means longer hold times. Confidence is earned. Working in the heat and breathing in the cold expands the edges.

Intuition is our highest form of intelligence. Reprogramming the autonomic nervous system. There is not a lot of comfort in the cold but there is a lot of of confidence.

The physical elements to sauna and cold

Brian immersed himself with contrast treatment for pro athletes: For recovery: finish in the cold. For performance: finish with the heat. Brian was Introduced to aerobic capacity through the work of Brian McKenzie, Gabby Reese, and Laird Hamilton. Underwater pool training and biking in the sauna. Brian was head and shoulders above other athletes due to his hot/cold training. he found himself calmer than other athletes. Pushing himself harder in stressful environments.

Brian has always taken a ton of pride in the training aspect to pro football. You put in the work, and the results follow. You see the tangible results. About 80% physical.

The mind and the body are connected through breath. The second that you start to over breathe is when you start chest breathing. The upper lung part of breathing doesn’t hold enough oxygen as deep gut breathing. Breath work helps performance. The first person to lose control of their breathing, their physiology tells their body that this is a survival state, and the mind creates a fight or flight state. Brian’s threshold of adaptation is created through heat/cold.

“Stress forces adaptation”

Heat shock proteins protect other proteins.

The Mindstrong Project is a training center and protocol that helps study the pace of breathing. Measuring the CO2 levels of their clients as a flatline. Inhale/exhale measurements. How many breaths in a minute in the cold tub. Baseline respiratory rate. Heart rate variability. HRV – Heart Rate Variability. Velocity and acceleration measuring. In a sauna, your heart rate is fast. 150 beats per minute: work out rate. Running heart rate. Elite athletes resting heart rate is below 50. In the ice, your heart rate goes way down. Quickly shoots down. It’s like an interval work out.

Aerobic capacity dictates the resting heart rate. Brian’s resting heart rate is 40-50. Prime respiratory system for activity and after activity, help recovery.

The heart rate is lower than baseline after a cold plunge and relaxing between rounds. Sauna and cold plunge helps control heart rate, and this translates to normal life. You can think better, be more calm in stressful situations.

A higher level of CO2 tolerance. Saturation of oxygen already in your system. Breathe is a tool.

Brian breathes in 100% through the nose, and exhale 50% of the breath. Breathing should be another pillar of fitness. Nutrition, weight training, sleep, recovery.. and breath. “It is a pillar of physical health, and it needs to be explored and brought to the masses.”

Sauna is “the truth barrel.”

What is misunderstood about sauna?

Sauna is misunderstood in that it is perceived to be a place to get rid of your demons, like maybe a hangover. But consistent use is where the benefits lie. It’s not a “some time” thing, but a lifestyle. People see sauna as a place at a locker room at a fitness club. A place to warm up or stretch. But it is so much deeper than this. We are in Nature and enjoying the fresh cool air. Nature is our greatest teacher. Training with Nature is much different than a fitness club. “We have done this with hundreds of people. The sauna environment is always equalized to everybody. If you train like this and live like this, you will never beat the heat and the cold. You will never beat Nature. You are in an environment that will allow you to get very intuitive with your thoughts.”

“I have never been in an environment that has brought out more from me as a human than sauna and cold.”

Be curious as a human. Chase the edges.

Harvey Martin: Founder/ President & Coach The MindStrong Project

Founder of The Mindstrong Project & Host of The Mindstrong Project Podcast “Enhancing Mindset Through Movement” Specializes with professional athletes in MLB, NHL and NFL. Consulted at every level of College Athletics (Div. I,II,III, JUCO). Milwaukee Brewers Scout 2015-Current. Has conducted numerous seminars with business organizations across the country optimizing human performance Previous: Masters Degree in Sport Performance (Minnesota State) Bachelor in Sport Management (Central Michigan University). Certified Strength & Conditioning Coach AFAA Minnesota State University Teacher of Coaching Theories, Team Skills & Conditioning, Augsburg University Assistant Coach, Minnesota Mash Recruiting & Pitching Coordinator.

Daniel has a great media mind. He’s a great interviewer and a curious person, who helped unpack Glenn’s sauna marathon in Finland.

The trip was a balance of planning and spontaneity. A lot of planning through connections made, then emails and correspondences up to departure.

Endurance: I got on my sauna game. There is no judgement with sauna. When you are hot you leave, when you are cold, you go back into the hot room.

Sauna: whatever works for the individual. What feels right, you do.

Every sauna has its own soul.

Mineral water: key to sauna survival. More than just hydration.

Sauna Water based on different body types.

Independent cultures creating common practice.

1,600 kilos of rock. The rocks become 600 degrees c. (1100 degrees f.) and glowing red.

Savusauna. 5-7 hour burn. Super hot rocks, lots of heat mass, all the smoke is released out of the room.

Glenn recorded 10 Sauna Talk episodes over in Finland. We will be releasing these podcasts one by one.

We are joined on the bench with Brian Peterson, acclaimed photographer.  Honored nine times as Minnesota Press Photographer of the Year, Peterson has covered major stories including; Russia before and after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Exxon Valdez oil spill,  the 1987 and 91 Minnesota Twins World Series victories, Olympic Games in Nagano, Japan, Salt Lake City and Vancouver just to name a few.

Recently Peterson has focused his camera on environmental issues, including a six-month study of the pollution in the Minnesota River.  The yearlong feature called “Voices for the Land”, explored the issues surrounding land use and urban sprawl in the state.

On the bench, we discuss his latest book project “State of Wonders”.  A fabulous book illustrating the four corners of Minnesota during the four distinct seasons of the year.

As we celebrate the 10 year anniversary of sauna book “The Opposite of Cold”, we are pleased to visit with author Mike Nordskog, Mike was close to between sauna rounds at his home in Southwest Wisconsin. Glenn was Zoomed up from his island lake cabin in Northeast Minnesota.The sauna building journey vs. destination

The iterative process of sauna building allows us to create a sauna that works for us, individually.

The story behind “the Opposite of Cold”

A resurgence and interest in authentic sauna, particularly in the Upper Midwest.

DIY

Finnish carpentry to do the details – window molding and attention to detail.

Finnish immigrants, more saunas per mile than in Finland, Cotton, or Toivola, Carlton County.

What is authentic sauna?

Water in the hot room. Not just on the rocks, but ideally a room that you can bathe in there.

Ritual aspect that take time.

Common sense design principles, eg. two tiers of benches where the upper bench is close to the ceiling, otherwise you are leaving a lot of heat on the table.

The law of löyly – sitting on the upper bench, your feet are at the height of the sauna rocks.

Perfect Sweat

A symposium of sauna enthusiasts at Archimedes Banya. Invited by Mikkel Aaland. Authors and journalists, people from all over the world joining together in San Francisco in 2014.

Sauna is a pretty intimate thing. “you guys go over and use it for a couple rounds.” An intimate space where you are close to people.

Sweating, your body is going through a stressor and inducing a discharge.

Sauna is a resurgence but in places like Northern Minnesota, it was never lost.

The rhythm of sauna

The opposite of cold. The building allows you to counteract the harshness of winter. The counterpoint of cold.

Savusauna has their own peril. The smoke sauna is hard to maintain and keep active.

In the evening to prime your appetite and set up a good night’s sleep.

Harnessing the courage for the cold plunge.

Completely perfectly in the moment during the equilibrium moment after cold plunge.

What is most misunderstood about sauna?

You can use at your own level of comfort.

The intent of the book: to get the authenticities of sauna on record.

“When you go out of the heat an into the extreme cool, and back from the extreme cool and into the hot, there is something that happens inside your body that is just so satisfying” – Vladimir von Tsurikov.

Sauna Talk is pleased to welcome Vladimir von Tsurikov. Director of The Museum of Russian Art (TMORA) in Minneapolis, MN.

Vladimir has brought with him a passion for the advancement of Russian Art and Culture, and a strong record of international collaboration.  Over the last ten years he co-organized and co-curated several exhibitions with Russian institutions in Moscow, Saint Petersburg and Yekaterinburg.  Vladimir has published numerous articles and presented dozens of lectures both in the U.S. and Russia. In addition to releasing two research volumes, he has edited five volumes of a scholarly series Readings in Russian Religious Culture and continues to serve on a number of editorial boards. Vladimir also serves on the boards of the Russian Historical Society in the U.S. and the Russian Nobility Association in America. Vladimir received his Ph.D. in Russian History from the Moscow Theological Academy in 2011, and an M.A. in Russian language and literature in 2000 from Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT.

Our interview took place in the sauna at the Hewing Hotel, downtown, Minneapolis, MN.  The Hewing Hotel’s top floor set up features a brand new rooftop sauna.  A very generously sized hot room space with transom windows overlooking the downtown skyline.  We have easy access steps outside the hot room to the outdoor rooftop patio, where there is also a hot tub and fresh air chill out zone.  The Hewing Hotel rooftop also offers separate Men’s and Women’s facilities, each equipped with showers, bathrooms, lockers.  We also have a Nordic vibe spacious bar and patio area, offering signature drinks from local vendors including Tattersall Distilling, a micro distillery based down the elevator and a short bike ride away.

John Pederson made this event happen.  You may know of John as founder of the 612 Sauna Society, the first cooperatively owned sauna organization in the United States.  John is also partner of Sauna Society Builders, which is the organization hired by the Hewing Hotel to host community and cultural gatherings.

And this is what we did on a recent Friday night in Minneapolis.  As others were swilling down their beer and cocktails at the neighboring bars and restaurants in Minneapolis, we were a group of folks enjoying a healthy sauna experience while learning more from Vladimir about the parallels of sauna, Finnish sauna, and Russian banya.

In this episode of sauna talk, you will get an understanding of Vladimir von Tsurikov’s deep love and appreciation of the banya experience.  How banya is a social and community gathering place as much as it is a wonderful wellness practice enjoyed by many ethnic communities in Russia and neighboring areas.

This episode will be especially interesting for those of us who enjoy learning about the authentic sauna experience as it relates to its offshoots and parallels with other cultures, in this case, specifically, the Russian banya.

Four of us spent a rainy early June afternoon enjoying a sauna session at my cabin.  We road tripped together to experience National Sauna Day in Embarrass, MN.  What better way to get right into nature, and all get on the same page than a great sauna session?

We start on the bench with Garrett Conover.

• 1,200 miles from Maine to Northern Minnesota.
• Cotton grass and tamarack sets my heart aflutter.
• Sauna and nature.

Joined by John Pederson and Lee Sarkela.

• Us 4 characters as long tail sauna enthusiasts.
• Tracing the steps back to Pine Island as the island or origin for us being together.
• 612 Sauna Society parables behind the scenes.  Gas fire going out, trailer jack breaking.
• 2,100 visits to Little Box Sauna, 612 sauna society 2015/2016 this winter.  600 return visitors.

A lake plunge, then Round 2:

• Sauna a Tick Removal Strategy after a hike.
• The universal feel of water being tossed on sauna rocks.
• Elements of sauna are basic:  a throwback to simplicity.  Stove, rocks, benches.
• Wood burning sauna stoves:  loading from the outside, changing room, inside the hot room.
• 612 Sauna Society: "a bunch of really cool people from different walks of life."
• Building a community of people drawn to the steam.
• Magnus Nillson Swedish celebrity chef joins JP in his backyard sauna.
• Negotiating the deal:  The goat comes with.
• Sauna is a great equalizer.  Egos get checked at the sauna door.

A nice community sauna in Minneapolis:  why doesn't it exist?

The exchange of giving and receiving.  A health club vs. backyard vs. public spaces.  The cooperative idea: changing the relationship between the people who are giving and the people who are receiving.  Making a resource available to other people in a sustainable way.

• Chicago Sweatlodge.  Bill Trotter, top 10 sauna meister in North America.  High sensitivity to people.
• JP's latest project the Mobile Sauna Cooperative.  Stokeyard Sauna.  Looking to have many owners to share the sauna experience.
• Vermilion lakeshore and US Steel.  Payroll deduction to pay for the Sarkela Island cabin.
• Sharing a family cabin with siblings, nieces and nephews.   All family are welcome.
• Island life:  picking up folks from mainland.  It's a psychological and physical removal.  Separation from the busy life, to leave behind.
• Getting through big water is about tacking.  Big ocean wave crossing with Garrett Conover in a lobster boat.  An offshore island in Maine.  Mile long and half mile wide.

Tasteful megga wealth.

Canoeing:

• tipping in a canoe in Quebec:  it's hypothermia season all year long.
• Canoe paddling: better partnering with an amateur vs. fighting with someone who thinks they know what they're doing.
• Rapids and waves.  Quartering waves.
• Weather cocking:  Spin on the crest.  Not fighting for every element of control.

Round 3:

• Jarmo Lehtola, Finnish Sauna Society.  A gift of Hukka Sauna stone.  "Tahvo is a sauna elf, that smiles happily, no matter how high the temperature gets"
• I think of Jarmo and his gift every time I toss water on the sauna rocks.
• That's the type of steam you can only get from a real sauna stove.  Not one burst, but a delay.  Sustained steam.
• Most of the heat in a stick of firewood is contained within the smoke.  Gas emitted from burning wood.  An efficient burning stove will burn the smoke as energy.
• Rapid fire questions with Lee.  A close family connection.
• A backyard sauna makes the frown upside down.

The rain stopped.

Cold & Heat

It’s interesting how many come to appreciate sauna from the cold, and conversely how many come to appreciate the cold from sauna. Whichever the point of introduction, Jesse and I agree that with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3. You’ll hear from Jesse why this is. We will hear about his personal journey towards the powerful goodness of breath work and cold exposure.

For most all Finns and sauna owners in Nordic regions of Europe and similar climates in North America, we refer to a few sauna round and a jump into a nICE cold lake just something you do. The practice is built into the rhythm of the day. “I’m going to cut the grass then go sauna.” Or “the sauna will be hot around 5pm, come on by.”

Contrast Therapy

Yet for athletes looking for an edge, or folks stressed out, or others with a varied list of mental and physical problems, we are seeing some serious positivity with “contrast therapy.”

Jesse’s Bio

Jesse Coomer is an author, professional breathworker, cold training expert, certified Wim Hof Method instructor, personal trainer and a Professor of English at Vincennes University, Indiana. He’s also a voice of practicality in the world of breathwork and cold exposure on his YouTube channel, Midwestern Method. 

On a personal note, Jesse and I share a timeline. We each first learned about Wim Hof back in 2015. We each followed our own path into the Wim Hof Method and all its goodness. You can hear my interview with Wim on this same Sauna Talk podcast. Jesse was one of the first handful of certified Wim Hof instructors in the US. His passion for living well through breath work and cold exposure comes through in this interview.

Jesse has two ebooks available: A Practical Guide to Breath Work, And A Practical Guide to Cold Training. Well worth it for those of us interested in diving deeper into the cold and goodness.

So, let’s welcome Jesse Coomer to Sauna Talk!

Today on the bench, we are pleased to welcome Jessica Kelso, founder, owner, and proprietor of Löyly in Portland Oregon, which today comprises two public sauna facilities.

Growing up in Oregon, Jess first encountered sauna as part of “a bit of the hippy culture of the area” but she, like many sauna enthusiasts, became hooked on sauna from her time spent experiencing the public sauna scene in Europe.

We get to hear from her voice, the pivotal moment when she committed herself to opening a public sauna in Portland.

And after opening her first sauna facility in 2006, Jess helped grow this business and then opened a second location a few years later.

We learn about her companies efforts to reposition their business during this time of Covid-19, when public facilities like restaurants, health clubs and public saunas are on lockdown, and just now looking to reopen safely and within guidelines.

How great to hear her heartfelt feelings of the power of sauna, as a space for community and gathering, healing and feeling good.

I am pleased to offer your this opportunity to spend time with a kindred sauna lover. Like most all of us listening to this episode, it’s wonderful to hear from someone who shares the appreciation of sauna much like we do. And how great it is to spend a little time visiting with Jess, on her sauna bench, to get a better understanding of her commitment to sauna as a passion as much as a working living breathing business.

To learn more about Löyly, Portland you can visit their website: https://loyly.net/private-events/

Greetings from Sompasauna in Helsinki. Today we visit with Yana who takes us through her deep connection to sauna, from Aufguss at the large public saunas in Germany, to the Danish Sauna Association, and now with her employment with Studio Puisto, a Helsinki based architectural firm that focuses on sustainable hospitality and sauna design. Here we have a look at their new commercial sauna project Saunaravintola, Northeast of Tampere, Finland.

Sompasauna

To be able to Sauna Talk is one thing, and to be able to Sauna Talk on the bench is another. And today, it was a treat to be Sauna Talk with Yana by the shores of the brackish Baltic Sea at Sompasauna, the world’s only free public sauna open to all at any time day or night.

Sauna Aid

Yana shares with us the origins of Sauna-Aid, and her involvement with the initiative. The brainchild behind it, and the relationship with the organizations like the International Sauna Association.*

Yana introduced herself to me at this year’s World Sauna Forum in Tampere, Finland, along with Heikki Riitahuhta, Partner with Studio Puisto. We later met up for sauna in Helsinki. Hearing her story compelled me to bring out the recorder, and share her love and passion with you. Yana is part of a young generation of sauna enthusiasts. And, like many of us, Yana is motivated to more than just enjoy time on the sauna bench.

Sauna-Aid Participating organizations:

Japan Sauna Spa Association, Lithuanian Bath Academy, Association of Professional Bathmasters, British Sauna Society, Finnish Sauna Society, Polish Sauna Society, German Sauna Association, Norwegian Sauna Society, Danish Sauna Association, Finnish Embassy in Poland, North American Sauna Society, Swedish Sauna Academy, New Zealand Sauna Society, The Australian Sweat Bathing Association, Finnland-Institut Berlin, Austrian Sauna Society, and the Czech Sauna Association.  (More organizations to follow.)

Today on sauna talk, i’m pleased to bring you Kimmo Helistö, leading operator and pioneer in urban public sauna. We are seated at his latest project, Uusi Sauna, a stylish contemporary public sauna in the “new downtown” area of Helsinki. Uusi offers 3 saunas and a bar and a kitchen. One sauna for men, one sauna for women, and one private sauna, electric for private functions.

the birth of Uusi Sauna

In 2010, there was an International competition to help define what city planner would win the competition to help define the neighborhood. Kimmo was contacted to help make the public sauna happen. Kimmo was brought into the project very early. He had time to think what the design

The two main saunas are heated by wooden pellets and the private sauna is electric heated.

Decline of the Helsinki public sauna empire

There were approximately 150 public saunas before World War II. Apartment buildings had only cold water. Bathing was all done, and happily achieved in these neighborhood, community saunas. Only two of the old saunas remain today:

• Arla Sauna – 1929
• Kotiharjun Sauna – 1928

Kallio, an urban working class neighborhood. Lots of people and families in small apartments.

Kimmo is a musician. A violinist and saxophone. Influenced by David Bowie and Roxie Music. Professional band in the early 1980s. The Lost Ones. Kadotetut – the name of the band. Punk/New Wave. Drums, base, keyboard, violinist, saxophone. He worked as a DJ and music producer, and journalist.

The squat house, the Bat Cave, had a sauna. They began activating sauna as part of a bar area, and introduced “strange and performing arts.” Tuesday was the most boring day of the week. Open for sauna 6 pm or so, for sauna. The bar was not too big, with one DJ, and a 20 square meter and shower room, and outside the shower room there was a changing area. No lockers, only a place to leave your things. 1995-1999.

Single burn vs. continuous burning sauna stoves

The original way is the single burn system.

The 1930s started the creation of the continuous burn sauna.

There was lots of people doing this kind of work. The city of Helsinki little by little started to support the squat house, the Bat Cave. The stove, perhaps, was sponsored by Aito Kiuas. “there were very clever people at the time, who knew how to ask for things.

Tent sauna installations

After 1999, he helped make sauna in a big tent at a festival in Helsinki.

Hotel Gershwin in Manhattan… 26th street between 5th and 6th Avenue.

Urse Jacob, owner of the hotel authorized a rooftop tent sauna installation in September 2000.

5-6 day sauna party on the rooftop. Finn Air helped sponsor, so they were able to bring the Kiuas from Finland on a Finn Air flight. There was no profit, but it was a really good party for one week.

April 2001, they did the party again, and it was a really good sauna. A big Harvia stove. A Russian military tent, holding many people. Multiple bench heights. After the first New York happening, they realized that this was a great concept.

They began to mobilize these sauna pop ups for mobile tent sauna installations in festivals in Europe. Germany, Belgium, Denmark, France. Lots of music festivals, city happenings, urban happenings.

Spring 2002 was the last time. 4 successful sauna installations.

The layout of these pop up sauna villages, two main tents. One for sauna, the other for DJ and bar. 25 square meter hot room with sauna stove and stadium benches.

Sauna is a personal thing. When you’re hot you can leave. Nobody deciding these things.

Arla Sauna

In 2006, Arla Sauna was a forgotten sauna. Almost dead and gone. An older guy was running it. He was 70 years old and the sauna was in bad shape. The original kiuas. A huge brick made kiuas. It was changed in 1970 to city gas. A clever change. Kimmo fell in love with this sauna. He would go every week. He asked Kimmo to take over the sauna. Little by little, he started to improve Sauna Arlo. He helped build the spirit of the place. Little by little, the business improved.

Kimmo felt a personal task to save Sauna Arla. 13 years strong.

Uusi Sauna

Local people referred the organizers to Kimmo. What a great opportunity to build a new public sauna. $2mm to build a new sauna. The owner of the location is an insurance company. Kimmo is renting the space from them.

Little by little. Step by step. There is not that kind of knowledge about running a public sauna. It all started from the squat house, to the pop up sauna, to New York. We have a small jewel in their hands.

A modern system in that he lights the stove at 7 am. biked home and sat with his cats and paid some bills. He returned to the sauna at 10 am. He met with a record label for his music production.

550 degrees c. Wooden pellet single burn fire.

Kimmo lists the 8 public saunas currently in operation in Helsinki. He thinks Helsinki can support 20 public saunas. And this will be busy. Everybody is helping each other. More people come to sauna, the more people sauna and people suggest going to other saunas.

The feeling of collaboration with other public saunas.

When you go to sauna, you should only listen to yourself. Not try to be there too long time. Drink some water and try it again. You should allow time for yourself. Listen to your heart of your feelings.

Shout out to Kimmo Ratio, Sauna Sherpa, for setting up this interview.

“If you haven’t experienced the sauna, you have to do it, because it is a wonderful cleansing, spiritual way of life.”

-Paster Dave Pearson

We hadn’t yet tossed water on the sauna rocks, when I asked him the question:

“So, doing the math, as a Lutheran paster for over 40 years, that’s about 2,000 sermons.”

“that’s about right.”

“Have you ever mentioned sauna in one of your sermons?”

“Well, I’m sure I have mentioned sauna in a few of my sermons.  But I will say this: I have composed many of my sermons in the sauna.  There are a lot of “aha” moments that come from the sauna, just from the conversation that is generated here or just personal meditation.”

“I think as a minister, that’s where the spirit dimension of it (sauna) comes in.  We have such a significant responsibility, spiritually, to protect and to preserve and to use our bodies to the maximum extent that we possibly can.”

This is Sauna Talk

I had the great pleasure recently to be sitting on the sauna bench with Paster Dave Pearson and his wife Judy.

Dave and Judy enjoy their sauna ritual pretty much every afternoon along the shores of Isle of Pines on Lake Vermilion in Northern Minnesota.  The setting is idyllic, and familiar to many.  Their wood burning sauna is nestled amongst birch and old growth red and white pines.

A small window in the hot room faces the lake.  A picture perfect scene out to the glistening water that captures Nature with a capital N.  The late afternoon sun enters through the small window, casting light on the sauna rocks, highlighting the soul and essence of the heat, inviting the sauna bather: “yes, toss water right here!”.

Outside the deep red clad sauna building, it’s just a few steps down to a landing, then a right turn out onto the dock, where a ladder is set up on the end, welcoming the sauna bather into the cool clean water.

Like an Irish couple sitting in front of their Guinness at their favorite pub, Dave and Judy look right at home on their sauna bench.

Paster Pearson is all Scandinavian. Thick white hair, solid blue eyes, and an in shape lanky physique.  Strong boned and muscled, you can just picture him in his favorite flannel work shirt chopping firewood on a late fall afternoon (as the sauna stove heats up for their afternoon sauna).  Sure enough, when asked: “yes, I cut my own firewood, we enjoy the ritual.”

In this episode of Sauna Talk, we try to get down to the essence of the health and wellness benefits to the authentic sauna experience.  What’s important is that we get a context of sauna being more than a hot room.  We discuss the wood burning aspect to authentic sauna, the connection with our soul and with nature.  And the affirmation of the physical benefits to sauna, as explained in The Metabolic Approach to Cancer, which Paster Peterson had just read that afternoon, and bookmarked in anticipation of our visit.

As Paster Pearson reads the excerpt from the book, I am taken by his strength of voice and being.

Navigating his own confrontation with cancer, I am thinking about all the people and families he surely has guided through their own health experiences.  And now Paster Peterson and his wife are dealing with their own journey.  No chemotherapy or chemicals, but a healthy diet and lifestyle with plenty more saunas and cool lake plunges down their path.

Please join me in welcoming Dave and Judy Pearson to Sauna Talk.

Today on the bench, we hear from kindred spirits from across the big pond: Jake and Max Newport. As testament to our mutual love of authentic sauna, though this episode has been in the works for month, it was put together within minutes.

I sent Jake an email, heard back right away, and we jumped on a Zoom call. We got right into the chatter, as mutual lovers of good sauna tend to do, and so it was easy to hit record and just make it happen.

Doers vs. dreamers

We hear the origins of Finnmark Sauna, from their first experience of Finnish sauna, to building a wood fired sauna in their family backyard, to the origins of their sauna business, Finnmark Sauna.

Jake and Max are busy guys, helping customers all over Great Britain with their desire to own their own saunas.

Dr. Mathew Walker Why We Sleep

Could infrared cabin marketing hucksters be committing a cultural crime?

Sauna is an experience to be enjoyed. There is an ethos in Great Britain that “the medicine should taste foul” and with exercise, “it must be painful to be good.” But with sauna, when we listen to our body, we tap into what wellness is all about. And really great sauna feels awesome.

Sauna is not about forcing pain upon yourself.

It was a cold Minnesota winter's evening when we gathered in my backyard sauna.  We get started talking about the cold, sort out our beers for the night, talk about making nICE mugs, and Minnesota Wild apparel.

Please stay with us as we settle onto the sauna bench.

Though he grew up with sauna, Scott landed in Finland on his 20th birthday, and gets seasoned to sauna in the 'ole country.

As commercial Sales Manager Tylo/Helo, Cokato MN.Scott has seen his fair share of sauna:  "If you don't have a good sauna heater, you don't have a good sauna."

"I've walked away from sales because it wasn't done correctly."

A kick ass sauna:  It's the price of a car.  What's the big deal?

Rule of thumb:  At the lake, never lock your sauna building.  It's good karma to have a sauna ready in case someone runs into problems on the lake.

The 2' wide sauna door.

612 Sauna Society - bringing sauna to unexpected places.

The ultimate mobile sauna:  built on a trailer where the wheels can tuck up underneath, allowing the sauna to sit on grade.  Lightweight, pick it up and go.

Could sauna become as popular as Coldplay?  We tread down the infrared line of thinking.

Cleaning a sauna - The Sauna Clean from Finland.  Great product to add a dab to a bucket of warm water and clean your benches with a brush.  An old dry towel to wipe it clean.

The Bodhi Spa – Newport, RI

Links to Scott's company:

Finnleo Sauna.
Helo Sauna.
TyloHelo World Group.

Music Credit: Trampled by Turtles, Midnight on the Interstate

I’m pleased to present my second Sauna Talk podcast interview with Daryl Lamppa. Who is Daryl Lamppa? A third generation sauna stove builder, born and bread in Tower, Minnesota. 100% Finn, and married to a Finn, Cheryl. After marriage, as a young man, Daryl and his father in law built their newlywed house, and milled lumber for the build from Norway pines on their property. Daryl and Cheryl have lived in this house their entire lives. She a former schoolteacher in town, and he a welder of the Vapor Fire wood burning home furnace and Kuuma wood burning sauna stove. I am pretty sure that Daryl is one of the leading living experts in wood burning technology. And I will put money on it, that nobody alive has spent more time researching and analyzing wood burning technology than Daryl Lamppa.

First time I met Daryl Lamppa

Over thirty years, recently moved to the area. Interested in building my first sauna, to replicate the awesome experience I had rebuilding a cottage on the Baltic Archipelago. Birch and Flounder, peel and boil potatoes.

Walked into his shop, did all is own welding back then. I got into into sauna building in large part part because of the Kuuma stove. Thanks to the Kuuma I was able to finally experience the quality of heat that I knew so well from my time on the Baltic.

Fast forward to our second Sauna Talk podcast interview.

Meeting up with Daryl Lamppa

There I was in my fishing boat, heading for my visit with my friend and wood burning sauna devotee Daryl Lamppa. About midway across Big Bay, the irony of the moment hit me. Here in the Northland of Minnesota, it has been an unseasonably hot and dry summer. Forest fires in Canada and super warm calm weather had created a gloomy hazy hot atmosphere for my boat ride. The smell of smoke was strong., and here I was, heading to meet one of the world’s premier experts on clean burning wood.

As I tied up to Daryl’s dock, I couldn’t help but take notice of his custom dock frame. Nobody builds a dock like this, I thought. The welds were uniform and clean. The dock frame design was criss crossed and laid out perfectly spaced. This was a hand made dock of shiny stainless steel. The dock could have been five years old or 55 years old. Nobody builds docks like this. Well nobody except Daryl Lamppa.

Daryl’s sauna and homestead

Daryl greets me from his back door, and we head over to his sauna. Part of the purpose of my visit is to develop a plan for fixing up the Lamppa homestead sauna. The Cobbler’s kid’s shoes syndrome is in full effect as the sauna is a neglected relic from the 1930s, maybe earlier. Toys for the grandkids are stored in the cool down room. “This was the sauna for the resort that used to be here that was part of this land when we bought it.” We talk through our plan on how to remove the old hand built beast of a stove, and what to do about the original wall paneling and benches. “We can take apart the benches and just flip over the boards. Maybe sand them a bit.”

We turn our attention to his house. I’m pretty sure it’s the house he and his wife Cheryl moved into when they were married. Daryl and his father in law built the house, by hand, using lumber milled from the trees taken from the property. And we are talking big Norways and White Pine. Daryl is all Finnish. All matter of fact. Simple short sentences that tell a story. “He was a tree cutter. We took down these trees ourselves. We had lumber milled from these big trees. It was a lot of work.”

Next I’m drawn to his woodpile, two woodpiles, actually. One neat stack left and right, guarding his driveway. Each pile is stacked perfectly. “That’s 5 cords each. We heat our house all winter with 5 cords. Pointing to the left: “I’ll bring all this down to the basement in the fall. And this over here, well, i just stacked this pile a few weeks ago. These are for next winter.”

“Birch is the best.” He tells me, and of course, I’m nodding in agreement. “I want about 20% moisture. The heat is in the gasses. Wood that’s too dry doesn’t produce as much heat.”

Off to the old factory

We hop in Daryl’s pickup truck. “Nice truck” I say. “It’s from 2003, and has 23,000 miles on it. I only drive it to the shop and back, and maybe church, that’s about it.” I ask him if his truck has ever been to Minneapolis: “No.” The original Lamppa Manufacturing building sits in a residential neighborhood just a couple blocks off Main Street, Tower, Minnesota. (Population 500). Daryl’s Father ran the family milk distribution company out of this building originally. Then it moved over to full time sauna stove building in 1974.

The building sits virtually empty now, as the entire operation has moved across town. The items in the building today are very few. There’s a clock on the wall (circa 1974), and an old radio (circa 1974) that Daryl turns on by plugging it in. Two chairs are positioned about 6 feet away from Daryl’s most recent Kuuma, and he has been working in secret and solitude on improving the burning efficiency and method of his Kuuma sauna stove. This one looks like any other other Kuuma, but Daryl is deep into the testing of this one. He takes only a couple sentences to warm up to me, knowing how much I love Sauna Talk, and wood burning technology, particularly. And Daryl is comfortable here, in his old factory, where he has spent most his life welding, cutting, and constructing thousands of Kuumas. I know most who own a Kuuma would get a chuckle on “how could you make a Kuuma any better?” But that’s Daryl. A life long dedication to his craft.

I am overjoyed to call Daryl Lamppa my friend. And before I turn it over to this interview, three things.

First, Daryl’s son Garrett has recently left his post as Hospitality Director at the area casino resort in town to come over as Director of Operations, full time, as fourth generation sauna stove builder. You’ll hear what Daryl thinks of his son’s transition to the family business (a very Finnish answer!). For me, I am overjoyed that Lamppa Manufacturing is in great position to remain 100% family owned and operated. A big credit for helping shore up Lamppa Manufacturing is Operations Manager Dale Horahan. Dale, as good fate would have it, moved to the area with his wife about 10 years ago, with an idea of retirement.

At that time, Garrett showed not much interest in the business, and Dale was thinking of selling out. The company just couldn’t make money, and, frankly, the hard manual business of making stoves was taking its toll on Daryl’s knees and spirit. Dale has spent his career in manufacturing and building businesses. Dale and Daryl met a few times with an idea towards Dale taking over Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale, though, had higher aspirations and, like me, felt a higher spirit towards Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale’s list of contributions to helping Lamppa Manufacturing are too long to list here. He helped transition the company from the old building to a new building, streamlined operations, hired more quality help, and countless other critical contributions, without which Lamppa Manufacturing may not have made it to the solid enterprise that it is today.

The second piece I’d like to share is that, in full disclosure, I am a reseller of the Kuuma stove. My title for the company is Director of Sales. It is not a full time position, nor do I want it to be. I don’t want to tax the company with a salary or expense. Like Dale, my devotion is to help grow Lamppa Manufacturing as a healthy, family owned company. A good employer in the community, and the producer of the most kick ass sauna stove in the world.

In that spirit, the third thing I’d like to share, to send off this introduction, are a few comments from a recent Facebook post.

Today on the Sauna Talk podcast, i’m pleased to present Earric Lee, who is a leading researcher surrounding the health benefits of sauna.

As you listen along, you’ll hear the background noise of the busy-ness and hustle and bustle of London streets. As, instead of on the sauna bench, we capture this episode outside a London hotel.

Earric and I converged for the recent British Sauna Society Sauna Summit. And it was here, in London, where I was able to capture Earric. And share with you his exhaustive yet budding effort to help bring sauna research to the forefront.

Earric Lee is a fellow board member of the Sauna Research Institute. He has a clear focus on helping de-silo sauna researchers globally. He is also committed to helping advance studies towards what you and I know to be true. Sauna is good for us.

So, let’s welcome ..

Greetings! We recorded this episode as part of the sauna building seminar at the West Coast Sauna Summit, January, 2025, Loon Lake Resort outside Vancouver, BC Canada. Let’s Sauna Talk: building saunas!

Sauna Talk podcast all about building saunas

I moderate a panel discussion with, on my left, Andrew from Saunabuilder and on my right, Josh from Theraluxe. These two are Western Canadian sauna builders who left their finish nailer behind in order to come to the West Coast Sauna Summit this past month just outside Vancouver, BC Canada. I really enjoyed our time together. You’ll hear my kind of sauna building thinking. From bench heights to wall cladding. Wood stoves to electric. Mobile to fixed backyard, we cover a lot of topics in an open and collaborative spirit.

There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.”

― Thomas Sowell, A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles

Today on the virtual smoke sauna bench, please welcome my friend Jarmo Hiltunen. Author of the brand new book: Building a Traditional Finnish Smoke Sauna.

I am overjoyed that for many, Jarmo will be your voice to the introduction to the wonderfulness of smoke sauna. Jarmo is a builder, but I would call him more of an artisan. Also, he is also a smoke sauna spiritual evangelist.

His book is now available on Amazon

As we type the words “smoke sauna” into the Amazon search bar, we have to sift our way through infrared “sauna” blankets and dozens of other misappropriations of the word “sauna” before finally finding this gem of a resource.

Many/most of us around the world have little knowledge or experience with smoke sauna. It’s not just buried within the search bar. And for some of us, being hidden and special is a nice place for smoke sauna to reside.

For smoke sauna is a deep in history, culture, and spirit. Yes, we have had many fragmentations of sauna. But, there will be minimal to no fragmentations of traditional smoke sauna. And thanks to this comprehensive work, Jarmo Hiltunen ensures us that the purity and authenticity of smoke sauna will remain with us forever.

I love that smoke sauna is hard to build. It takes commitment and cash. And these barriers help ensure that those willing to take on the task are both committed to the work. And dedicated to its reward.

This book helps us decide if we want to undertake the challenge. The book clearly helps us decide for ourselves if we are ready to undertake building our own smoke sauna. We Get a flavor of the potential satisfaction in the work, and if committed, be able to realize the amazing löyly and hot room microclimate that may await us at the end of the smoke sauna building journey.

Small world

I am blessed to have met Jarmo Hiltunen, the author, by upmost coincidence in a public (modified) smoke sauna in Helskinki, back in 2019. Despite living in separate continents, reading through his book, I feel once again that I am right there with him on the bench.

Buy this book. And whether you undertake your smoke sauna build or not, reading through the process will help you appreciate Jarmo’s dedication to smoke sauna. And that alone is worth having his book on your shelf.

Wishing you all good sauna. And thank you Jarmo for your hard work and dedication to making this book come to life.

Welcome to this special episode of Sauna Talk. We welcome Adam from Thermé USA, who led the panel discussion with three public sauna operators from North America. This episode is a “two-fer” in that as introduction, we get to hear from the group as they talk about the gathering and their panel discussion. Then, we move over to the panel discussion as it happened live, amongst almost 100 people in attendance at the Culture of Bathing gathering in New York City, January, 2025

Let’s welcome Annette from Tampa Bay, Florida, Kelly from Hudson Bay, New York and Stephanie, from Montreal Quebec Canada.

Please welcome Alex Blyashuk to the Sauna Talk podcast. Though sauna in Belarus is quite popular, Alex, a native of Belarus, didn’t grow up with sauna (or banya as it is called in his home country) but discovered the Russian style sauna experience through several road trips from his hometown in Buffalo, NY up to Toronto, Canada. Alex and his buddies would pack up their car, often on Fridays, head over the Peace Bridge, through Fort Erie, Ontario and up the QE Parkway to experience the heat, steam, and venik treatment action at a public banya in Toronto.

Alex’s experiences at the Russian Banya in Toronto were formative. In our chat, you’ll hear more about the venik treatments, their relaxations between hot room sessions, and how they’d try to stay awake driving back from Toronto to Buffalo afterwards.

Alex’s mobile sauna

Alex constructed his first mobile sauna, in Eastern Europe tradition. Here we have a modified barrel concept where, instead of round, the walls are vertical, giving the interior space a more conventional feel, while at the same time rolling steam and “demassing the hot room” as many pros like to call it.

During our chat, you will hear how deeply these banya experiences affected him. So much so, in fact, that Alex has pivoted his career to sauna full time.

Alex is especially impassioned towards the venik steam tradition. To the unfamiliar, venik treatment involves administering an elaborate whisking procedure on a guest, as the lay on their back, and then rotating onto their front (or vice versa) while they lay on the sauna bench. My 88 year old mother partook in it as well. She was blown away by her venik treatment.

Our venik treatment

I have had venik treatments before, but never to this level. Alex is a pro, from start to finish. The venik treatment involves steam from the sauna stove, hot and cold water, some essences like eucalyptus (from the leaves themselves, never oils), and the key: several different whisks, which are bound branches of supple tree limbs of different species.

The Venik treatment is different than the Finnish vahta primarily in that the Finns most often use the birch whisk on themselves, casually, while sitting on the bench. Sure, one may offer to wack a friend a few times, but nothing like what happens with “Dr. Alex” as his “patient” lies flat on the hot room bench. It’s all trust, as Dr. Alex orchestrates the process. Steam, heat, ventilation.. a maestro of sensations. Dr Alex at the controls.

First place

This past summer, Alex traveled to Russia to compete in an international tournament for venik treatment instructors. He took first place in the amateur division. Master Kazan!

The experience was other worldly. Alex was an expert in the process. He is completely tuned into the different species of tree limbs to create different veniks (or whisks), as well as bringing in the essences from nature, in a well thought out choreographed process. In this episode, you will get to know the features of the different tree species. Their qualities and nuances.

Three’s the charm

I had many “take aways” from my venik treatment and our Sauna Talk podcast. One of them is how draining the treatment is for the giver. It’s easy to lay flat on the sauna bench and take it, but it’s another thing to stand in the hot room and administer the action. A sauna master is whipping around the veniks in the heat. Heart racing, blood pumping, sweat pouring. Often, Alex tells us, it’s good to have three people on the program. One flat on the bench, one standing, administering, and another outside, on the on deck circle, waiting for a tag team from his partner, to hand off the wisks to the next guy.

For many of us, sitting on the sauna bench is enough. For others, in the Latvian Pirts tradition, laying down on the bench and submitting to Alex’s correographed venik treatment may be, as my Mom said, “just what the doctor ordered.”

Please welcome Alex Blyashuk to Sauna Talk!

Jeff Hill has lived a few lives: A realtor and property developer for 30 years, mailman for 20 years, 20 years with the Tower fire department, and his latest venture is undertaking a Tiny House Village, USA concept for the Northland.

Jeff is well familiar with sauna culture.  Never lock your sauna, experience jumping through a hole in the ice, and try his low blood pressure cocktail for tossing onto sauna rocks.  I picked up Jeff at the mainland public access, and took him by boat to our island cabin in Northern Minnesota.  Jeff came prepared and spent the night at our "insta-cabin".

Today on Sauna Talk, we’re pleased to welcome Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”. The book is just now being released, end of April 2021.

We start our conversation in a good place, with Lassi’s early beginnings of sauna (before he could walk). And we transition into the definition of sauna, which for listeners new to sauna, is a great place for understanding.

We layout what is a sauna from a design perspective. For example, the sauna heater is usually visible, and a center point of the sauna.

We talk about how in this time of remote work, many are using their home saunas as offices. There is usually a sauna in most apartments in Finland, and traditionally, saunas in apartments and homes are one room usually operated as primary function, just a couple hours a few times a week. The rest of the time it is sitting still. They have natural bench systems, ideal for sitting and home offices.

The small integrated sauna. In apartments. Nothing under 30 square feet. We discuss the 50 square foot sauna, either 7×7 or 8×6 as a “good size” for most use case. During our Sauna Talk: Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”, divides his book into four sections. He calls it:

The Four-Leaf Clover Model of Great Sauna Design:
1. heat
2. air quality
3. interior design
4. culture & company

The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design
The unified definition of sauna. It would be great if those things that aren’t sauna could be called something different than sauna, to help clear up misconceptions about the practice as well as the reported health benefits.

Hi John, welcome to saunatimes. I thought I’d start by having you share how and when you first got started with the WHM and cold water exposure.

Most of my life I’ve had a terrible relationship to the cold. I hated cold water and if it dropped below 60F I would bundle up like I was preparing for an Arctic adventure. In 2013, when a friend let me know about a Wim Hof workshop that was being held in Austin, all I saw was a picture of Wim sitting in a barrel of ice and though “No way!! Why would I pay money to go sit in ice water?!” My resistance was strong enough, however, that it made me curious, and I signed up. Those first two ice baths with Wim that weekend were miserable, but life-changing.

The big issue with living in central Texas – a sub-tropical climate – is that cold water is not readily available. It wasn’t until 3 years later after experiencing two years of brutal insomnia that I found the amazing benefits of a regular cold water practice. After spending thousands of dollars on various insomnia treatments from many different kinds of approaches and modalities – none of which provided any lasting benefit – a friend who is a Wim Hof Method instructor suggested that I try cold water immersion before bed.

I bought a hundred pound of ice, filled up my bathtub, and got the best night’s sleep I’d had in two years. I did that three more times before realizing that hauling ice was going to get expensive and take a lot of time. That’s what motivated me to look into other ways to get cold water.

What did your early cold plunge set up look like?

My cold plunge has been through a number of evolutions through the years. The very first thing I did after ice baths was buy a Whirlpool 15 cubic foot chest freezer and fill it with water. That was great until three days later I opened it up and discovered a few rivers of rust pouring out of the seams. 

The ice chest freezer for cold plunge, why is it such a “winner” for DIY cold plunge enthusiasts?

People love DIY for a few different reasons. For many who don’t have the budget to buy a commercially made cold plunge, the DIY route is financially motivated.  A basic setup with a used chest freezer can be created for less than a few hundred dollars. Even a very well equipped high-end chest freezer setup can cost less – in some cases *way* less, than half of the commercially made models.   

Let’s talk about your Chest Freezer Cold Plunge book, how did that come about? 

After having a number of problems and issues with my chest freezer cold plunge experiments and finally getting it dialed in, I wanted to start a group where we could talk about various issues and brainstorm ideas. It only took a month or two before I noticed many people asking the same basic questions. So I wrote a FAQ. That expanded pretty quickly to 13 pages, and I still felt like it wasn’t detailed enough, so I decided to write a book. Editor’s note: Link to John’s book is here.

You have helped many others adapt their chest freezer for cold plunge, including the starting of your Facebook group. How did that start and how is that going?

When I started learning about converting a chest freezer into a cold plunge, there were maybe 30,000 people in the Wim Hof Method Facebook group, but only a few posts about chest freezers. And most of those posts were “Hey I did this!” but lacking “How I did this.” The posts were also hard to keep track of and follow with all of the other content being posted.

I had a sense that a separate group to discuss making a cold plunge from a chest freezer would be helpful. I asked one of the Wim Hof group admins if he would be OK with me starting a separate group. He said yes, and let me post a couple of messages about it. It grew from there.

“Contrast therapy” is a big thing. Please comment on sauna AND cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly, or 1+1=3?

I love hot tubs and saunas. As I mentioned, I hated the cold for most of my life. When I was looking for apartments, my # 1 criteria after location was “Does it have a hot tub!” The last apartment I lived in for four years had a sauna, and I thought I was in heaven.

I don’t have one where I live now, but have experienced contrast therapy at a few resorts, spas, and natural springs that I have been to over the years. One of my goals is to add a sauna at home. I’ve read some of the research and know that the benefits are awesome. Contrast therapy provides a huge metabolic workout. I suspect that it is not a matter of either hot or cold, rather one of both hot and cold. I know cold by itself has tremendous benefits. Adding a sauna to that practice seems to have an exponential benefit. After reading Dr. Rhonda Patrick’s papers on heat shock and cold shock, I’m a believer in the value of both.

Editor’s note: further reading: with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3.

Today on the actual sauna bench, we are joined and talk with Jake Newport from Finnmark.

Jake makes the journey from Northern England to join me on the Larsmont Cottages sauna bench in Northern Minnesota, by the cold, clear clean water shores of Lake Superior. You can also check out my podcast with Jake and Brother Max from 2020 here.

During this episode, we learn more from Jake about the thermal bathing ecosystem in the UK and globally. From career path change to multi pronged sauna business. Investing and reinvesting in the culture and the company.

Super early bird grounding

Fully grounded by being the first guests to Sauna Days. We enjoy solitary quiet time to ground ourselves through the hot and the cold.

Mika & Wendy – lifetime achievement awards for sauna. BSS founding. The explosion of sauna in Great Britain. Huge number getting into the thermal bathing scene. Beautiful saunas on beautiful beach. Beach Box Brighton.

A meaningful thermal experience

Three things that give us the feeling of community: a the church, the pub, and the village green society. Britain has become more secular. People now are far more health conscious. A void around community, and a sense of community. A gap waiting to be filled. A huge spectrum of age. Mikkel Aaland, and the “lost bathing culture” and the return of uptick of thermal bathing.

Larsmont Cottages sauna talk

Jake describes the sauna in which we are sitting. How the sauna is Finnish style. He calls out the Western Red Cedar, and full wooden door. Jake describes the Kuuma stove: “This is a heater that you buy once.”

Final words:

It’s the hot, then the cold, then the normalization. lying outside on the cold wet grass, Jake found himself unwound and relaxed.

Welcome to this Sauna Talk podcast episode with Nick Fox: Minnesota’s first Wim Hof certified instructor and baker of amazing homemade bread.

We communed in heat, cold plunge and nature in my backyard sauna recently and you’ll hear my interview with Nick in just a moment. But before then, I’d like to take you back to a dark and cold February night in Minnesota a few years ago when Nick first sat down to watch the VICE documentary on Wim Hof, the Ice Man. Inspired by the science and adventures in the cold with minimal clothing, Nick began taking cold showers and practicing breathwork the very next day. His experience with the Wim Hof Method (WHM) initiated Nick’s breathwork journey. In January of 2022 he went to Poland to complete his certification as a WHM Instructor, and later he became certified in the Oxygen Advantage. Now, he guides breathwork and coaches ice baths in workshops around the Midwest. 

Pulmonaut beginnings

Before becoming a full-time Pulmonaut, (a pulmonaut is simply someone who uses their breath as a tool for exploration and transformation) Nick taught Philosophy, History, and Art at both the high school and college level. He is also a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve, and spends his summers out in the field with the cadets at the Military Academy in West Point, NY. When he’s not playing Army, he’s writing and drawing with his young kids. 

Sauna Talk Podcast cold exposure breathwork guests

Those familiar with this podcast are familiar with a few other Sauna Talk guests from the world of cold exposure and breathwork. A few that come to mind include Harvey Martin, who currently is on staff breathing and contrast therapy-ing with the San Francisco Giants major league baseball team, Jesse Coomer, trainer, breathwork coach and author of two books on the subject, and Wim Hof himself, back in 2017. So feel free to dig back and check out these episodes in particular.

Back to Nick

Teaching people deep conscious breathing and cold exposure techniques is his new passion. You can visit his website foxfirebreathworks.com where you’ll be able to check out his upcoming workshops and classes. For example, in January 2024, it should be cold enough in Minneapolis for Nick’s winter swimming class at the Swedish Institute. He is mobilizing a kick ass wood fired mobile sauna (one that I actually had a hand in helping with with my friends Brad and Ben at Prairiewood Saunas, but that’s story for another day coming soon). Anyhow, Nick looks forward to helping you explore your inner strengths. And I am super happy to share some breathing on the bench with you and Nick Fox from FoxFire Breathworks. Welcome Nick to Sauna Talk!

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Mika Meskanen and Wendy Liu.

Mika is Finnish, and partner Wendy is Chinese. They live in London, and we met for this Sauna Talk on the bench in my backyard sauna in Minneapolis.

This is our second podcast episode together, the first being episode #54. And, as you know, I much prefer Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, where so much magic in conversation and connection usually happens.

A few nuggets

• Sauna Travel: Leading sauna tours to Finland.
• Dynamic Duo
• Origin Story
• Sauna culture in Britain
• Mika’s musing: “the stove should always win”
• World Class Wendy: Sauna Aid & connector.

It was a warm day in Northern Minnesota.  I hopped into my fishing boat and headed about 5 miles across Lake Vermilion into the river inlet to Tower, Minnesota.

Today on the sauna talk bench we are joined by Stew and his sons David and Kyle Wilson, from the Homecraft sauna heater family.

Who is Homecraft? Homecraft is one of Canada’s longest running sauna manufacturers, this multigenerational, family-owned business has steadily grown in the shadows of towering old-growth cedar trees outside Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

We gather on my sauna bench, the three of them lined up for interrogation as I manage the steam and the microphone from down low. Yes, those in the sauna industry from Canada are well aware that the Wilson’s are polite straight shooters from Canada, but these virtues come forth loud and clear during this episode on the sauna bench. As I throw water and make steam, there is little room for anything but clarity and transparency.

So, we are the beneficiaries. We learn about sauna culture in Canada, the history of this family company, and what good sauna means to Stew, David, and Kyle.

No matter what the product, it could be a couch, or a pen, or a bar of soap, more and more of us are interested in learning more about the people behind the product. And this is true also for electric sauna heaters. How a sauna heater preforms is critically important. How is the steam? Is there someone in North America to support the product after the sale? Are the elements going to fail? And if so, will I be pulling apart 300 rocks to replace an element in six months? These are the kind of questions we are asking ourselves.

And yet, there’s another line of thought that goes into our electric sauna heater purchase decision. Who are these people? Some may be influenced by authoritarian foreign accents. But, beyond the sauna cognition theory, we may not be fully sure who is making our sauna heater. Is it Jens assembling the sauna heater, or Xinchong’s young teenage daughter assembling the sauna heater? And how far did this box have to travel before coming to our front steps? Well, in the case of Homecraft electric saunas, you’ll be hearing directly from the people behind the product.

And what’s cool is that Kyle, the younger son, like David from Superior Saunas, has a pastoral background. Who better to sit on the sauna bench with than someone who has a spiritual connection to sauna? Stew’s younger son, another David, is a licensed electrician, having run his own company for 10 years. Who better to have your electrician call with a screwdriver in their hands than David at Homecraft?

So, this is what we get with the guys at Homecraft. Practically designed and manufactured by and for electricians. And spiritually designed and manufactured for spiritualists.

We get into the weeds about the mechanics of electric sauna heaters. And I think you’ll find as we listen through, I am the one to get nerdy. And the Wilson guys are the ones to keep it light. Those that know me, know my dedication towards good sauna. I’ve had a rocky road the last couple of years navigating towards both good products AND good people in this space. Like Lamppa Manufacturing in Tower, Minnesota, I am pleased to introduce you to Homecraft from BC Canada.

Again, it’s the people AND the product.. and when it comes to Homecraft, you’ve found both. So, please welcome, David, Stew, and Kyle Wilson to Sauna Talk.

He may be most recognized as “The bad guy” in Spike Lee’s American Clansman movie, but those that know Jasper Pääkkönen, know him as anything but a bad guy.

Acting is being little kids again.

Every Finnish family has pretty much similar experience growing up with sauna.

Creates a certain bond. Naked removes the taboos. Strips away all the things that are so uncomfortable with nudity. In reality, nudity is our natural state of being. When you are stripped away from your clothes, you are stripped away from your barriers and roles. Finns grow up with a healthy body image, and an understanding of nudity.

Sauna is generally the place for the mandatory sex education talk.

Childhood home in Helsinki, a small electric sauna in the basement. Pretty much every family in Finland has a sauna in their home.

At the wood burning cabin sauna, everybody wants to go light the fire. The primal nature of fire and fishing. In our DNA. Providing food, catching something, picking berries, mushrooms. Everybody spends a lot of time in Nature. We spend a lot of time.

Everyman’s rights

Every person is allowed to roam freely in Nature. A lot of land is privately owned. Nature is everywhere and Nature is totally accessible. What makes this exotic for Americans is that private land is fenced off and “trespassers will be shot.” In Finland, we don’t even have a concept of land not being accessible to all. “I have never, ever heard of a land owner thinking they have a right to fence off their land… that type of mentality does not exist in Finland.”

It is common sense. It is something we don’t even have to think about. Finland is a very equal society. It is very flat in terms of social classes. This all comes from a few things, the main thing is that the education system is very open. “We don’t have private schools. We don’t have separation of the classes. You never get separated by the wealth of the family.

Education: Finland has often been ranked #1 in the World in terms of education. Everybody is playing on the same

When Finnish men and Finnish people enter the sauna, everybody is equal. When you are stripped away from your clothes, you are stripped away from your wallet, there are no social classes. All titles and status’ are go.

Two emblematic words in the Finnish language

Löyly Spa

A perfect name. A public sauna/bar/restaurant in downtown Helsinki. The most significant sauna building in the whole world. Something that A landmark for the city of Helsinki. Architect: free reigns, Nordic design, sleek, glass. That will become a landmark for

Time Magazine: Jasper’s Loyly: World’s 100 greatest places. Very few places in all the Nordic countries. An important destination for people visiting Helsinki from abroad.

Loyly is an abstract spirit of the sauna. We have 3.3 million saunas and 3.3 million different. The spirit of the sauna. As Finn’s we have a very practical approach to religion. For Finn’s sauna is a very spiritual place. It is a place of peace and quiet. A spiritual experience. People must like to sit in a church much like how we like to sit in a sauna.

Avanto

A quick energetic experience. A lot of people start their day with a cold water avanto swim.

Sauna is a deep cleanse. You are pushing your impurities out of your system.

Finns have instinctively known for centuries that sauna is very healthy. For us, it is always been about taking care of our health. Not until recent years have we had significant science to back up these beliefs.

American saunas are horrible. They are built the wrong way. The sauna stoves are small, the seats are too long. The biggest problems are with the sauna room themselves. Signs banning you from adding water to the sauna rocks. The loyly is very essential to the sauna experience. The whole function of the sauna heater is to allow for Loyly.

“Dry sauna” can be a bit frustrating.

Building a real good sauna is not rocket science. As long as you know some very basic principle’s, you can easily build a good sauna.

What does it feel like to you to see people experiencing Loyly?

“It makes me proud as a Finn. Not as the owner of the place, but that people have an opportunity to experience something uniquely Finnish. Overwhelming sense we Finns don’t have a lot of things to be proud about. Thats how we feel about our culture and ourselves. We’ve always felt this overwhelming sense of humbleness. The fact that a visitor comes all the way to one of the most remote parts of the world, Finland, and wants to experience something uniquely Finnish is a matter of pride for us. And i’m so happy that I have a place in Helsinki that offers that chance for visitors. “

Loyly is full everyday. It has become a place where half the visitors are locals and the other half are tourists. You have a lot of different nationalities. We want to keep it extremely accessible so that everybody has a chance to experience it. We charge 19 euros for the entry. If it were in America, it would most likely be $50 minimum. We didn’t want to price it as a premium as it would eliminate the spirit of sauna. Sauna should be accessible to everyone.

It has been an interesting 3 years.

It almost runs itself with the great team we have in place running Loyly.

The serene peaceful feeling between sessions.

Imaging checking out from your day job to hit the road with a mobile sauna.

Imagine being able to:

• Share the appreciation of sauna with others.
• Take a sauna when you want to.
• See the country.

This is the journey native Finn's Risto Sivula and Jouko Sipala will be undertaking soon to help celebrate the centennial year of Finland's independence.  Risto and Jouko are well suited for this duty, and we get to hear why in this episode of Sauna Talk.

Folks will be able to experience Finnish Culture and Finnish Achievements along the tour:

Here is the latest draft schedule:
January 13-14 Minneapolis, MN
January 23-24 Finland, MN *
February 8 Kansas City, MO*
February 10-12 Dallas, TX
Feb 24-26 Houston, TX
Feb 28 Albuquerque, NM*
March 1 Phoenix, AZ*
March [ ] Los Angeles, CA *
March 28-29 San Francisco, CA
April [ ] Portland, OR *
April [ ] Astoria, OR *
April 21-23 Seattle, WA*
May/June/July Minnesota – TBD
May 19-21 Chicago, IL
May 30-31 Eagle, WI *
June 1 Cedarburg, WI*
June 2-3 Milwaukee, WI*
June 23-25 Houghton/Hancock, UP MI
August 11-13 Wixom, MI
August 15 Buffalo, NY *
August 18-20 Leominster, MA
September 30 New York, NY
October [ ] Raleigh, NC
October 14 Atlanta, GA
November 18 Lake Worth, FL
December 2 - 6 Washington D.C.

Email is info@travelingsauna.com

There are about 650,000 Finns living in United States, a good chuck living in Minnesota and UP Michigan.  We all want to celebrate Finnish Independence, and bringing people together.  The route has something to do with where the Finnish ambassador will be traveling.  A big shout out to Keith and Mark Raisanen from Tylo/Helo North America, who are building the traveling sauna.  100 Saunas is the goal: 50 saunas for Risto and 50 sauna for Jouko.  Saunatimes is going to help make these 100 saunas happen.  Sauna Talk is conceptual thinking.  You slow down.

Sauna is your time and the way you want to have it.

We respect the solitude of sauna, but Sauna Talk is the ambassador of conversation.  North East Minnesota, home of the Kuuma Stove and good Loyly.  Bringing sauna rocks from Finland.  But you can't use just any rocks for sauna rocks.  Replace your sauna rocks every 5-10 years?  Take a shower before sauna round one?  Yes, it can be a little uncomfortable if your skin is dry, but there are no rules here.

The garden hose shower, simple is better.

What should we use to christen the sauna?  Champagne may not be appropriate. Does anybody have any ideas?  What should the traveling sauna be named?  We'd love to get your thoughts.  The community of authentic sauna enthusiasts are most welcome to come experience the traveling sauna.  Finnish Sauna Society, International Sauna Society, Finnish Embassy in Washington are all supporting the traveling sauna project.

There are more saunas in Finland than there are cars.  The wood burning sauna stove is sustainable.  It is the real sauna.  The atmosphere, the feel, the connection to nature.  And the heat is softer and warmer.  Not as "hard" heat as what comes out of the electric sauna stove.  There is a dream team for social media connectivity to learn about where the traveling sauna will be, and when.  For those wanting to experience the traveling sauna, it's best to reach out to the local Finnish groups in each town and community, who are coordinating the traveling sauna in their respective areas.

Life in United States vs. Europe.

• Driving - Minneapolis/St. Paul spans 40-50 miles.  Lots of driving.  Cities are more concentrated in Europe.
• Health Care, Education, Retirement - you worry about these things in the United States.  Percolating all the time in the back of your head.  Extra pressure.
• Being naked in sauna is a European thing.  American saunas are usually experienced while wearing a bathing suit.

Who would you like to take a sauna with?  How about Urho Kekkonen or Donald Trump.  An opportunity for sitting down and take it easy for awhile.

Favorite part of the sauna session?  The first Loyly.  The flow or not being rushed.  The feeling of humming and mellow.

What is most misunderstood about sauna?  Sauna is how you want to do it.   It's up to you how you want to experience it.  It's all ok.

If you could take a mobile sauna anywhere, where would you choose?  Antartica!  300 degree f. difference in temp.  How about the bottom of the Grand Canyon?  Why not?  And sauna and a lake belong together. Bring the sauna to state parks.   Sauna makes nature pop.

Sauna Talk global series continues. Today we welcome Sauna Sherpa to Sauna Talk. His real name is Kimmo Raitio, but he’s known around many of the many saunas in Finland as Sauna Sherpa. He is a Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna.

Like many Finns, (all Finns?) Kimmo grew up with sauna. Like many Finns (all Finns?) Kimmo takes good heat seriously, and welcomes those interested in learning more about sauna with a clear and open mind and discussion. And this is what you will hear in this episode.

More and more tourists and business travelers were coming to Finland with a keen interest to experience the Finnish sauna. And so Kimmo began taking people around to different saunas in his homeland. This was how the concept of Sauna Sherpa came about. The global pandemic has put a hold on Sauna Sherpa, but the love for an appreciation of good sauna is still very much deep in his bones.

Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna

In this episode, we hear interesting antidotes of the Finnish sauna. When asked about what makes a good sauna, Kimmo, answers in succinctly Finnish style (very few words).

1. Ventilation
2. Heat
3. Steam (humidity).We touch upon the nudity in sauna subject, and how it is in Finland, compared to Germany, Great Britain, and the United States.

We discuss the rebound of the public sauna, as it is in Finland paralleling many parts of the World.

The connection between Japan and Finland.

Drinking beer, and the ethos of being healthy and happy with sauna.

Welcome to this episode of Sauna Talk. Today on the bench we are joined by Omar Ansari, founder and owner of Surly Brewing Company. For those not in Minnesota, Surly Brewing, as of 2018, is reported to be the third largest brewery in Minnesota. Producing 93,000 barrels per year. Surly brewing made the list of top 50 brewers in the United States, and will be knocking their way down on that list, I'm sure.

The Surly beer hall and garden, located between downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul is a, well, a very large facility that packs them in and has quickly become a destination point for locals and visitors to the Twin Cities.

For those of us in Minnesota, Surly needs no introduction. For example, anyone attending the recent Neil Young concert at the Orpheum Theater in Minneapolis, looking around before the lights went down, we could easily identify and loose count of the number of fans sipping from the iconic red and black Surly Furious 16 oz. can. Surly has become part of the fabric of Minnesota.

But little known about Surly is its founder Omar's love and support of the authentic sauna experience. Omar has been a huge supporter of the 612 Sauna Society. The connection and credit goes to Margie Weaver who at the time was Omar's yoga instructor. Margie arranged for Omar to meet up with 612 Sauna Society Founder JP. Once Omar felt the heat, the intention, and the idea of the 612 Sauna Society, he extended himself graciously to help expand authentic sauna in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis/ St. Paul.

612 Sauna Society has had residencies within the Surly Brewing Courtyard. This gesture, at the time, was uncharted grounds. Today, the idea of meeting friends on the sauna bench, partaking in a few sauna rounds, then a libation and a bite to eat at Surly Brewing may seem like a logical and natural thing to do, as this is done in Scandinavia all the time.

Yet despite Minnesota's long heritage of Finns and Northern Europeans familiar to sauna, as well as a cabin sauna culture that dates back generations along the shoreline of many of Minnesota's 10,000 lakes, the urban sauna concept (in the public domain) was very abstract and foreign in Minneapolis/St. Paul. as recently as just a couple years ago.

In this episode of Sauna Talk, you'll hear about the origins of Surly Brewing: Omar jumping on the pent up demand of craft beer in the Upper Midwest.
How Omar Surlyman was able to plow through the challenging task of getting an archaic, restrictive law changed to allow craft brewers to sell beer and food on sight, forever now known as the Surly Bill.
Omar Ansari put craft beer in cans at a time when it was all 12 oz. glass.
Omar Ansari embraced authentic sauna in the public domain.
Omar Ansari is like us, he enjoys the heat up and the cool down.

This evening we joined Omar on the sauna bench with a couple of Surly employees and their spouses, who were graciously quiet while I conducted this interview. Yet we "pass the microphone" and you will be introduced to them as well.

Omar Ansari is not unlike European business owners who work hard, no doubt, but who have a beer with their staff, and hang out socially as well as on the sauna bench and between sauna rounds, presenting themselves as just another person. Sauna is the great equalizer and Omar Ansari displays this and shares this in his own backyard sauna on this cold Minnesota winter's night.

The Friday Happy Hour is alive and well. And tonight we are joined on the sauna bench with a Minnesota Craft Brewing legend: Omar Ansari, founder and owner of Surly Brewing Company.

We didn't Sauna Talk together while taking a sauna, but we did Sauna Talk on the sauna bench with Kimmo Riuttanen Product Manager & Sami Linna, Marketing Director from Harvia.

Wood species for saunas

Red Cedar is something that can be found only in North America, not Europe. It equals to Elder in terms of structure, is the closest wood species.

"oh, it smells like a pencil!" The color appears much like Elder.

Spruce: Easy to get, easy to work with. Light enough to work with.

Aspen: Also very light soft wood. Really easy to work with. Less knots.

Elder and Pine.

These are the classical species of wood for sauna.

Heat treated: we can get some darker shades to the sauna.

Knots on paneling for sauna walls: "I love the livelihood"

Benches: Dense woods "massive spruce."

Sammi: "You do it how you feel good, yourself."

"You need to enjoy the sauna the way you like it the most."

Keep enjoying the sauna, and sharing the good word!

As we look back upon Sauna Days 2024, walking from one sauna to the next, pretty much all of us were comfortably numb.

About 200 guest converged for the fourth Sauna Days event at Larsmont Cottages, North of Duluth, Minnesota, this past weekend. Some came from near, and many came from far. All were able to enjoy the multitude of saunas, speakers, nature, and locally crafted food, beverages, and live entertainment.\

The recipe for a comfortably numb sauna gathering is much like a basic chocolate chip cookie recipe. We don’t need too many ingredients to make something scrumptious.

The foundation for Sauna Days 2024 was 12 mobile saunas and one lämpömassa enriched brick and mortar sauna. Then, sprinkle in various food tents, strategically located hydration stations. Add a pinch of LMNT hydration packets (flavors of choice) and a curation of interesting speakers. Finally, as icing on the cake, infinity cold plunge access into the world’s largest freshwater lake.

Familiar faces

A good number of the 200 plus Sauna Days 2024 attendees were repeat vendors and offenders. Familiar faces helped foster countless spontaneous re-connections either on the bench, by one of fire pits, at the bar, on the rocks, or in the lake. “So great to see you again!” And they meant it. “Is this your second or third Sauna Days?”

The spontaneous gatherings were akin to traveling from stage to stage at an outdoor music festival. Then, bumping into familar faces from year’s past. And, like attending a music festival with great bands and few yahoos, at Sauna Days, everyone knew the lyrics. Songs include: keep sandals outside the saunas, help fill up the löyly buckets, ask who is ready for steam before throwing water on the rocks, and by all means, close the sauna door.

Far and wide

As sauna becomes more popular, Sauna Days continues to draw people from places beyond the Great Lakes sauna belt region. I found myself on the bench with a couple who came all the way from the Yukon Territory. Other Canadians included Kyle Wilson, Homecraft Saunas, and his wife from Vancouver BC. We had guests from Salt Lake City, Oregon, Northern and Southern California, Florida. And yet none of these participants received the Furthest Traveled Award. That accolade was awarded to Jake Newport from Finnmark saunas. A close second went to Mika & Wendy from the British Sauna Society. The three represented the UK well, proucly wearing their signature British Blue robes as sauna uniforms.

Speaker’s corner

The Brits added some great flavor to the Sauna Days speaker series. Jake Newport shared a slide of a map of Great Britain, showing 100 dots around the British coastline, representing the number of mobile sauna activations there. “Pretty much every beach around the coastline now has a public sauna.” We breathed along with Nick Fox, Learned about Sauna and Sobriety, gleaned insight into the future and scale of Therme Group’s wellbeing oasis’s (bigger than Yankee Stadium!) with President Robbie Hammond.

The Steam Masters

Many were quietly sharing that a highlight experience for Sauna Days 2024 was getting wacked around by one of the three Steam Masters. The three administered venik treatments in either the Steam Lodge or Deep Wave Sauna’s Black Night sauna. We were blessed to have three steam masters lead rounds of venik treatments. Dan from The Banya House, California Alex, and B Alex from BSaunas in Buffalo, NY.

In addition to Sauna Days being the first weekend of May, the Steam Masters introduced us to a sister event first weekend of October: Banya Fest at a stately church camp just outside Minneapolis/St. Paul. A highlight of the weekend was learning more about the ancient practice of Eastern European banya and venik treatments, documented as a Sauna Days presentation and a soon to be released Sauna Talk podcast.

Sauna in nature

As wonderful as it was to experience multiple saunas scattered throughout the grounds at Larsmont Cottages, once again, nature seems to provide us with the best amenity. Larsmont Cottages is set along the shores of Lake Superior. Sauna Days guests were treated to rosy red skyline sunsets, night skies bursting with stars, and even a Hawaii-esque rainbow, as we celebrated a passing shower in the later afternoon sun.

Northern Minnesota sauna is always enjoyed in nature. Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us. And no bigger than within Sauna Days 2024 at Larsmont Cottages, Two Harbors, Minnesota.

Have you ever sat on the sauna bench with someone who has created a product that hundreds of millions of people have experienced?

Today on the global sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland from inside and just back from war torn Ukraine.

Introduction from Minnesota

Before we dive into this episode, I’d like to paint a picture of where I am sitting and what i’m thinking about. I am speaking to you while sitting on my deck at our island cabin in Northern Minnesota. I can see about 8 miles to the East, along a shoreline dotted with islands and outcroppings of birch and pine. It’s a crystal clear day with light puffy clouds across the horizon. I’m in shorts, barefoot, and have just immersed myself from a cool morning swim. Random cold exposure being that much more effective than deliberate. There are no airplanes overhead. The aura is of calm and peace.

To my right, 25 or so steps down a walkway through the woods, sits our cabin sauna that we built in 1996. Original stove. Original design, it’s been my thermal tranquil oasis for decades. It exudes spiritual patina. Those of you with your own saunas know what i’m talking about. In sauna we are transformed with peace and tranquility.

I recently turned 60. I am scaling down my professional career in the food industry. Gratefully, I am free from contractual bullshit in the sauna industry. I get to work with who I like, and most all of us are really cool, thoughtful, conscious people. I am feeling mighty blessed, and in times like these, sitting quietly on the sauna bench or on the dock between sauna rounds, If i listen quietly enough, i can hear soft voices of people, even half way around the world, miles less fortunate. Can you listen quietly enough to hear their voices?

And speaking of really cool, thoughtful, conscious people, I’d like to reintroduce to you Mikkel Aaland. Let’s have Mikkel help us hear these voices.

Mikkel from Ukraine: three time Sauna Talk guest

It’s hard to put into words the respect and appreciation I have for Mikkel. With this episode, he has become a third time guest to the Sauna Talk podcast, outnumbering most all others by two. It’s a lot of Sauna Talk. Yet Mikkel, to me, brings Sauna Talk up a notch. Where many see a crescent, Mikkel sees the whole of the moon.

During our July 2016 podcast, we discuss his iconic book Sweat. On our September 2020 podcast, during sauna and the time of Corona, we discuss his Perfect Sweat Documentary project. And now today, you will hear in Mikkel’s voice how Ukrainians are dealing with the invasion of their country from within Ukraine. This is his third trip into Ukraine since the invasion. And with each trip, Mikkel is facilitating bringing a sauna with him to the war torn country of Ukraine.

But this Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland episode isn’t a downer. I promise you. You will hear about the wonderfulness of what sauna is bringing to the people of Ukraine. And we sauna enthusiasts can put two and two together to get an idea what sauna can do for people in distress. I get choked up during this interview, and that’s what sauna can do for us. Like many of us, we can take a lot of good löyly, but our edges can be soft.

I don’t know about you, but when I read and hear about the sacrifices and perils happening with the people in Ukraine, I get very bummed out. Can we do something is a valid question. And I’m happy to report, Mikkel Aaland is doing a lot more than just something.

Sauna-Aid

Yes, Sauna-Aid!  Mikkel is quick to compliment many others, yet he is leading the charge on behalf of Sauna Aid, a multinational initiative sponsored by the International Sauna Association.

This is a beautiful story of the magic of sauna. The power of sauna as community, therapy, healing, comradeship, wellness, mindfulness, peace. So many great attributes, let’s hear it from the words of Mikkel Aaland.

I first learned of Scott Carney as he was writing his 2016 book, What Doesn’t Kill Us, the story of Scott being commissioned by Playboy Magazine to write an article debunking the cold water deep breathing “iceman” Wim Hof. Scott went to Wim’s training center in Poland. His intention was to get into the depths of Wim’s cold water immersion therapy and deep breathing methods, to reveal the cracks and fallacies of the practice. And this was Scott’s specialty. He was on the heels of his 2015 book The Enlightenment Trap, (then entitled under the title A Death on Diamond Mountain). The book explores the cult like practices of adaptive, Americanized versions of Eastern religions. How guru’s in the US try to capitalize on “enlightenment” for their own finances and fame.

For Scott Carney, a journalist and anthropologist who lived in India for six years, debunking myths is his specialty.

Debunking Wim Hof

So, back to those days at the Wim Hof training center in Poland, I can imagine Scott’s bullshit detector on high. He immersed himself with other guests who were paying money to learn the Wim Hof Method, under the direction and guidance of Wim himself. Deep breathing sessions followed by cold water immersions, and hiking up the nearby mountain wearing minimal clothing.

Yet during Scott’s time with Wim, sitting with Wim on his sauna bench, something unexpected and remarkable took place. Scott became a convert to the practice and the benefits of the Wim Hof Method. Not a “hmm, this is interesting” type benefit, but some deep profound improvement in mental clarity, physical endurance, and overall a “getting high on his own supply” as Wim says. Happy, Healthy, Strong.

So, Scott’s Playboy Assignment morphed into the book “What Doesn’t Kill Us.” The critic became the convert. And the Foreward to the book is written by Wim himself.

I started doing the Wim Hof Method myself, back around that time, in 2015. It is such a natural extension to what we love: sauna and then cold plunging. It all just made sense to me. For decades, I would do push ups on my dock in the morning, then dive deep and long into our cool Northern Minnesota lake, finding great meditative calm along the bottom of the lake, often just suspended down along the depths, as a big fish would do, in no hurry to come to the surface. This was my own Wim Hof Method before I heard of Wim Hof.

Close encounters with Wim Hof

What Doesn’t Kill Us treats us to intimate one on one connections with Wim, the crazy mastermind with several endurance world records yet arguably best known for beating back the flu like effects from being injected with an endotoxin, at a research hospital in Holland, all through power of the mind: deep breathing exercises that help us control our autonomic nervous system, a feat that up until then, medical science insisted could not be possible. What’s even more significant is that after the scientists wrote off the feat as Wim being a freak of nature, Wim himself trained a group of people not familiar with his method for only a few days. Then, this group was also injected with the endotoxin, and they all beat back the flu symptoms, just like Wim himself.

This study was remarkable. As Wim says, “it has changed modern science forever” and you can read more about it in Scott Carney’s book. Also, the book ends with Scott hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, the tallest peak in Africa, with Wim and others. I won’t spoil it except to say that Scott and Wim make it to the top. It is a crazy adventure, extremely well written and funny.

Scott’s recent work

Then, I recently heard Scott being interviewed by my friend Mindstrong Harvey on his podcast. Scott is great to listen to. He’s got such a depth of knowledge and tells really clear, interesting stories to support his knowledge, without sounding pedantic or cocky in any way. He is interesting and interested. As a journalist, he is naturally curious. Needless to say, I’d like to hang out more with Scott Carney.

Scott is happy to talk about his new book The Wedge and in this episode we dive deep into parts of his new book.

The wedge, simply defined, is the space between stimulus and response. We sauna lovers know all about the Wedge. When we toss water on the rocks and feel that heavy blast of löyly, we don’t rush for the sauna door but we close our eyes and take it in. In Finland, it is polite to shut up during this time. Actually, in Finland, it’s probably polite to shut up most times, but when we create a wedge between stimulus – the blast of steam, and response – rushing out of the room, as we know, this is when magic happens.

And same for the cool down. When we exit the hot room and immerse ourself in ice cold water, the conditioned response is to yelp like a cocker spaniel and resist the cold. But we sauna enthusiasts have reprogrammed ourselves to embrace this feeling. We listen to our core, not our skin. “Thank you brain for telling me to get out of this cold water. We understand that we, as humans, are conditioned to resist and activate a flight response when we feel ice cold water, but we are on a different path now. We are embracing this cold water as part of the wonderfulness of sauna therapy.”

The Wedge

Instead of all this chatter, now we have a simple word for this internal monologue: The Wedge.

We talk about the chapter in his book called “Red Line” where he and his wife go to Latvia for a long sauna ritual, and we talk about other examples in the book that help us understand the power of the Wedge. Scott is one of us. He owns his own sauna, and is often found chilling out between rounds outside his own backyard sauna retreat. If you’re like me, you’ll be nodding your head up and down page after page while reading the Wedge. Scott has a way of saying what we feel, and have felt for a long time.

When we become under stress is when we are most human.

Regarding hot/cold therapy: It’s like lifting weights for our vascular system.

Especially nice to hear Scott’s impressions of what is most misunderstood about sauna. Often, sauna is viewed as a post work out regimen. A sense of community is what is missing. We don’t have to take sauna so seriously. We can have fun with sauna.

I am super pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk. Please welcome Scott Carney.

It was impromptu, and it was fun. It was completely unrehearsed, and it rambled in places (when I was unable to hold the microphone). This episode holds some wonderful gems of free thinking. This is Sauna Talk, and this is what I love about Sauna Talk. Like good sauna, Sauna Talk has few rules. This was the spirit at this fireside chat at the West Coast Sauna Summit.

While some sauna’ed and others slept, most of the attendees, 25-30 of us came together for fireside chat Sauna Talk. It was later in the evening on night #2. Imagine seven or so mobile saunas deployed lakeside, just outside the high ceiling gathering room at the Loon Lake retreat centre, nested in the UBC Malcolm Knapp Research Forest. And Co-producer Valterri calling the session together in his Finnish accent: “ok, everybody, let’s gather our chairs around in a circle. Let’s Sauna Talk.”

Oh, man, this is my kind of conference. These are my kind of people, and we get into my kind of thinking and conversing. By this time in the gathering, we had become quite comfortable with each other. A lot of the formal presentations were behind us. Many of the formalities of reading name tags and polite introductions well in the rear view mirrors.

The Fireside chat

Some sat with their sauna sandals on, some sat barefoot. Others in bathrobes or a towel wrapped around them. We gather for Sauna Talk, after all. New connections and new friendships were alchemized at the West Coast Sauna Summit, and I hope, as you listen along, that this episode brings some of that goodness and spirit, wherever you may be tuning in.

One final note before I turn this over. A huge thank you to Valterri and Linda for not only putting together a great event, and bringing together a wonderful group of thermal enthusiasts, but for helping to create a vibe of “oneness.” Like a resonating, penetrating, satisfying wave of löyly, their relaxed demeanor, positive energy, and spirit of inclusion for all of us in attendance enveloped all of us, equally, together.

I really enjoy the West Coast Sauna Culture. No gatekeeping. Beautiful nature. Cold lakes, open, collaborative thinking. The rising sauna tide lifts all boats. This is how sauna culture can exist, and I’ll do all I can to help share the spirit created by Linda and Valterri, wherever good sauna may take me.

So, without further ado, let’s welcome many of the attendees from the West Coast Sauna Summit to .. Sauna Talk.

Today on the Sauna Talk podcast we welcome Ashley Mason.

Ashley Mason, earned her PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Arizona. She is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry in the Weill Institute for Neurosciences and the UCSF Osher Center for Integrative Health. Ashley is a clinical psychologist and directs behavioral treatment for insomnia at the UCSF Osher Center Clinic. She is Director of the UCSF Sleep, Affect, and Eating (SEA) Lab. Ashley is the Co-Director of the UCSF Center for Obesity Assessment, Study, and Treatment (COAST). She is primarily a researcher but also treats patients for insomnia within the Osher Center Sleep Clinic.

Whole body hyperthermia

In our chat today, you’ll learn about her work surrounding “whole body hyperthermia.”

Her 2023 BrainMind Summit presentation touches upon sauna and how heat treatment may have a positive impact on depression by regulating body temperature. Reintegrating thermal stress could be an effective approach to treating some individuals with depression.

Heat treatment and antidepressant effects

There is correlation between core body temperature and depression. Editing thermal stress out of our lives (air conditioning, climate controlled indoor living has put is in “the narrow band.”, when all along, acute heat stress could help us! Especially when the idea of an ice cold lake plunge after sauna is about the best idea we’ve ever heard!

I’m pleased to welcome Ashley Mason to Sauna Talk.

Recently, I had the pleasure of sitting on the bench with Omar Ansari, founder of Surly Brewing. You can listen to our Sauna Talk Episode here. Today on the bench, I have the pleasure of visiting with another enterprising icon in the Twin Cities. Today we welcome John Munger, Executive Director, Loppet Foundation.

John and Omar have a few similarities

Both John and Omar know each other from way back. Surly was an early sponsor of the Loppet Foundation. That relationship is still strong today. Their beginnings: John with the Loppet and Omar with Surly, each started as a kernel seed of an idea. And each have each grown into something long lasting and remarkable.

Both have have swam upstream against established rules and structure, both political and policy, with fierce dedication to their clear visions and missions. As you’ll hear in this episode, John notes that “real change in the world is stuff that lasts.” In the case of Surly Brewing, we have Surlyville, a substantially cool and beautiful brewery destination complex. In the case of Loppet Foundation, we have the Trailhead, a substantially cool and beautiful recreation destination complex.

Each of these beautiful buildings, and the smiles created within, are “instagram worthy” Both buildings appearing in tourist brochures and social media feeds for people visiting the Twin Cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul.

Neither of these Twin City iconic structures and organizations would exist without Omar and John.

What is the Loppet Foundation?

Founded in 2002, The Loppet Foundation It is a non profit, which is dedicated towards doing something good for the community.

The foundation undertakes a variety of things including trails & facilities management, large-scale public events, youth and adult recreational programming, and competitive training clubs. At the center of all of these ‘tentacles’ is their mission, which is to create a shared passion for year-round outdoor adventure in the Minneapolis area, with a focus on underserved youth and families.

The Loppet Foundation offers year-round programs for kids adults and everyone in between. From Loppet Run Club to our in-school Minne-Loppet program. The foundation works to get folks from all walks of life outside and active no matter the weather.

Luminary Loppet, Lake of the Isles, Minneapolis, Minnesota

The Luminary has grown tremendously. As you will hear in the interview, the first luminary had about 150 people in 2006 and this past Luminary we had over 10,000 people in attendance.

The Trailhead project (includes building and surround trail improvements) is about a $10 million project in total. The building is completed and has quickly become a signature, statement piece for Minneapolis. 612 Sauna Society’s wood fired mobile sauna has been parked in the shadows o the trailhead all winter long, and now into Spring. The sauna residency has complemented the offerings of the Trailhead. Guests have been able to enjoy sauna after a ski, surrounding old growth trees and well groomed trails, in a “this is so awesome, it’s got to be against some kind of rule” kind of way.

Music for the heat: Danny Sigelman reporting

- See more at: http://www.saunatimes.com/sauna-culture/music-for-the-heat-danny-sigelman-reporting/#sthash.7E41cFEV.dpuf

Today on the bench, we are joined with David Dragseth, Lutheran paster and CEO of Superior Saunas.

Let’s consider for a moment, the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Sauna business CEOs. To my knowledge, the overlap is a body of one: David Dragseth. Also of note, if we consider the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Guests to the podcast Sauna Talk, well, i’m happy to report that David Dragseth is joined with Lutheran Pastor Dave Pearson.

For those looking for some good spiritual sauna continuity, I encourage you to have a listen to both of these podcast episodes.

David and Glenn Sauna Talk

David and I were together on my Minneapolis sauna bench recently. We enjoyed sauna and then communing in urban nature, relaxing between rounds on my sauna deck, outdoor shower and cold plunge adjacent.

A wood burning sauna and a sauna deck in the rain are perfect backdrops for me to have David expand upon some of his Venn Diagram overlap of religion and sauna as a religion.

You could say that if Jesus grew up in a Nordic country, he may have been a sauna builder. We’ll never know, but we do know that David and I are both sauna builders, which is just the beginning of our Venn Diagram overlap. David fell naturally into the world of sauna building and the sauna business.

In this episode, we learn about David’s sabbatical to Finland, and being impressed and influenced by Finnish confirmation camps. Could there be a place in North America for similar camps? We talk about one of my favorite subjects: the spiritual connection of sauna, as both a noun and a verb. We talk about his business Superior Saunas. How it came into his life, and now, how it is a big part of his life.

Without further ramblings, please welcome David Dragseth to Sauna Talk.

As Saunatimes expands into the realm of public sweat bathing, there is no better place to start the journey than in Chicago at Chicago Sweatlodge.  This is a well thought out facility offering an authentic banya experience via two hot rooms:  the wet sauna and the dry sauna.

The stoves are top notch.  5,000 pounds of rocks in each.  Matter of fact, in summer, Chicago Sweatlodge switches out the rocks once a year.  It takes four days for the rocks to cool down, and even then gloves are needed to take out the old rocks.  Imagine the sweat the workers get switching out the rocks at Chicago Sweatlodge.

We experience dense heat at Chicago Sweatlodge.

Bill Trotter and I have a great visit and I am pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk.

Today on the bench we hear from several guests attending Sauna Days 2022 at Larsmont Cottages. What a great time we had, sharing our collective and individual passions about sauna. We came from all over, but are united in spirit! Let’s here from:

1. Katy, Sisu & Löyly, Grand Rapids, MN. Who has a sauna by the Lake Superior shoreline, build and converted from an old Fish House on site.

2. Eric, Voyageur Saunas. A big fan of the sauna tribe, and sauna builder from Twin Cities, Minnesota.

3. Dan from the The Banya House in Burnsville, Minnesota.

4. Alex from Bsaunas USA. He initially won the Eric Conover Sauna Magic book. as he traveled all the way from Buffalo, NY.

5. Keegan Kittock, Deep Wave Sauna. Building saunas for several years. Meeting new people who share the same passions, with like minded people.

6. Justin, Cedar & Stone Nordic Sauna. “Our world right now is starving for connection… Almost every single time, sauna is the best way to relieve stress.” New people who have never heard about sauna are coming to sauna. We are drawing on tradition. We get to create together and be part of a community.” In Duluth, access to trails are only 1/4 mile away. Nature is right next to us in 218. Justin doesn’t own and run a sauna company, he owns and runs a stress destroying company.

7. Meinrad Signer saunameinrat.com. Manitoba. Sauna rental or group sauna guide. We are living in a climate very similar to Finland and the Baltic states. A lot of his customers are Russian born.

8. Tom Carlson, a Sauna Map Champion from Madison Wisconsin.

9. Darin Mays, Urban Wing Co. Sauna confessions. I’d be in the hot room, and Darin in the cool down room, during Covid. Urban Wing sells patented designed sauna vents. Sleek, clear cedar. Part of a morning dip Sunrise dip into Lake Superior. We adapted the Mindstrong Harvey 5/15.

10. Nick from Arizona. Surprised his wife that Sauna Days is his gift for his wife for Mother’s Day.

11. Andrea and Art, unwind-body-mind.com Spa wellness center in Wisconsin. “Sauna brings what is real.” More meaning and connection. We can serve a lot of people with sauna.

12. Beau, Ben from Hayward, Wisconsin. Beau is starting a sauna rental and sales business in Hayward, WI.

13. Jean, up for the community and experience. Bringing friends in, like Kate. “when you love something, you bring it to the one’s you love.”

Let’s go Sauna!

Why are there no saunas in elderly homes?”

“I work with infrared, but it is more of a treatment… Infrared is not connected to the Norwegian culture of badstu (sauna).”

Today on Sauna Talk, we visit with Lasse Erikson, reporting in from the outskirts of Oslo, Norway. Lasse is a Sweat enthusiast with a mission to bring more sauna and sweat experiences to the world. He is head of Norges Badstulaug, a Board member of International Sauna Association, and VP Aufguss WM group.

Aufguss:

“We are story tellers. That’s who we are.” Listen to the steam. Feeling it.

These are some of the tasks in which he loves to contribute.

Today on Sauna Talk, we are joined by several different summer guests to my island cabin sauna in Northern Minnesota. This episode features guests from literally all over the world who have all found themselves on my sauna bench which I co built in 1996 and is still humming along strong.

The sauna is 3.5 hours North of Minneapolis, MN close to the Boundary Waters Canoe area on Lake Vermilion, one of the largest lakes in Minnesota. Stretching 26 miles East to West, our cabin sits on the largest of 365 islands, Pine Island. There are no roads or cars on 7 mile long Pine Island, but there are some hiking trails, and one of my fondest memories and routines of sauna on Pine Island is to fire up my sauna stove, then take an island hike, in nature, returning to pull the coals forward and maybe toss a sauna log on the stove.

For many, this is where the resonating wonderfulness of sauna shines. In nature, detached from the business of day to day. Birds chirping, water lapping along the shore, long twilight evenings that transition slowly. When the thought of tossing another log on the sauna stove isn’t a question, but something you just do (after pulling the coals forward). This is where and when we get full appreciation of the fact that Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us.

• Alex & John. “I’ve been coming here my whole life… Wood fired and great heat is what I love.”
• Becca & Garrett Lamppa. “My dad welded all the Kuuma stoves out of Lamppa Manufacturing until about 2017.” “Finnish culture is very close to home.”
• Bill & Ingrid. “The fist thing we did is start planning for our backyard sauna.” “We are enjoying our sauna and still working on our sauna.”
• Lee Sarkela. “My memory of sauna goes back to splashing in the bucket on the floor as a young child.”
• Petri Leivonen & Mike Tuttle.
• Scott Gallis & Family from Brazil. “Where you are at is where you are able to enjoy it the most. In sauna, friendships are forget. People are able to get on the same vibration and welcome peace.”

“What a great event” proclaimed Gayle Myers who, with her partner Gary, partook in the recent backyard sauna tour through 10 saunas built by homeowners in backyards in Minneapolis for the Parade of Saunas event.

Parade of Saunas 2024 raised $1,500 for charity.

“I had a constant stream through my space of curious folk, ranging from seasoned sauna pros to those just starting to daydream about their own backyard sauna retreat.”

Let’s check in with a few of the saunas as part of Parade of Saunas 2024:  

Ryan’s Fulton Sauna

A serene backyard retreat in the Fulton neighborhood of Minneapolis, complete with an AirBnb.

“I put on my extravert hat and gabbed the whole 4 hours on my sauna spiel;).”    

Steve Hawkins

Good fun.  I think I spoke with 60 + people today.  Good vibes.  People really were appreciative of the sauna and willingness to share.  

“Loved talking with all the different hosts and learning about how they made their saunas” – paraphrase of many of the visitors today.

Darin’s NorthUP

Darin from Urban Wing was proud to display his ultralight NorthUp Minne, this is the one they collaborated with Paddle North to float on one of their floating docks in Oct ’23

Joe Sauna

“Such a great experience to meet so many people as enthusiastic about the sauna experience as I am. Everyone that came to check out my set up felt like a member of the tribe. So glad to be a part of something that will hopefully become an annual tradition.”

SaunaTimes sauna

“The first guests started streaming in just after noon.” Glenn said. “I didn’t think I’d have it in me to show my sauna to people for four hours, but their kindness and good vibes fueled me. Then, hosting five people for sauna at 4pm, well, that took things to a higher level. Max brought veniks. And the 6 of sauna’d well into the night. It was a great sauna day, and warm on all levels”

Tom’s LightWave sauna

“That was a fun day talking saunas!
Everyone seemed to enjoy the chance to see others saunas.”

What a pleasure to sit down with Dr. Jari Laukkanen on this early June 2019 afternoon in Jyväskylä , a city and municipality in Finland in the western part of the Finnish Lakeland, some 130 km north-east from Tampere.

You may not know his name, but as a fellow sauna enthusiast, I guarantee that you know of his work, especially if you have read about the reported sauna health benefits in the New York Times, Time Magazine, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, NPR, and pretty much every area of broadcast media in the past year or so.

Sauna is a centuries old tradition from Finland, where people are known for being humble and quiet and low profile, How fitting is it that the person perhaps most responsible for the sudden explosive interest in sauna is equally humble, quiet and low profile?

This is Dr. Jari Laukkanen. He seems less comfortable with the limelight, but very comfortable channeling his expertise as a Cardiologist towards sauna research, to help qualify and understand what we sauna enthusiasts know to be true:

Sauna is good for you.

As you will hear shortly into our interview, Dr. Laukkanen warmed up to Glenn at Saunatimes, who traveled 5,000 miles for this interview.

Glenn and Dr. Laukkanen had arranged for a phone interview back when the study results were first announced, but both agreed to wait until a more expanded interview, in person, could be arranged.

This Sauna Talk episode is that interview.

Whereas many of the hundreds of journalists who have interviewed Dr. Laukkanen may have been after a couple quotes and sound bites, Glenn wanted Sauna Talk listeners to fully understand the context of what sauna means to Dr. Laukkanen, personally. Also, he wanted listeners to get an accurate context of what the practice of sauna is for the 2,800 people who participated in the study he and his team conducted.

Why? The results of Dr. Jari Laukkanen’s work has, unfortunately, been used by marketers of products and methods different from what we know as AUTHENTIC sauna. It’s not fair. But we have to tread lightly here. This is our opportunity to share what we know to be true.

Authentic sauna is good for you.

In Finland, there is no need to put the word “authentic” in front of the word sauna. Today, here in the United States, and many other parts of the world, unfortunately, we need to. Yet, there is great news on the horizon. Those that have listened to the Sauna Talk interview with Risto Elomaa, International Sauna Association President, know that in Germany, it is illegal to refer to infrared cabins as a sauna. God love the Germans!

For those not able to listen to this episode of Sauna Talk, here is are some excerpts from our time together:

How old were you when you took your first sauna? “A very small child.”

The development of the study. This was a long term study. Base line examination. Clinical. Blood samples, including a long questionnaire to establish baseline.

2,800 people at baseline.

In 2001, women were included within this population.

The main picture

Summary of the sauna study results: Sauna frequency is inversely related to health outcomes. If you use more sauna, you have lower risk of stroke, hypertension, and even cardiovascular death.

You have a lower risk of death of these events if you use sauna regularly.

Three important parts (to living a good life) are:

1. Diet
2. Exercise
3. Sauna

Now we have something else:

We want more relaxing ways in our lives. Our working lives are so busy nowadays.

Sauna is nice, it is kind, it is funny, and it can be also healthy.

They are linked very closely together in body and mind.

In Finland, sauna is part of our life

Everyone is using sauna. Temperatures: 80 – 90 c.. Water is introduced on the hot rocks which can change the humidity. Very good ventilation in sauna. Most of them cool down outside. This is part of the sauna habits.

Sauna is a complete experience

A study of 100 people, detailed study of before heart rate variably, an indicator of cardiac anomic function and stress level,  increased. Your body is relaxing after sauna.

We have focused our research on a typical Finnish sauna. None of the people in the study used infrared cabins.

From the study of 2,800 people, a speculation on how many were using wood sauna vs. electric sauna, Jari estimates 20-30% of the people in the study use the wood fired sauna.

Goals for the future

Heat shock proteins are an interesting area for more study. Same with brown fat We’d like to see more long term studies. Changes: are they long lasting.

We need more studies about sauna. “I appreciate international collaboration. Without funding it is impossible.” Jari is very interested in studies in places where sauna is not popular because we have access to a control group who does not use sauna.

This is important for the health of humanity.

New studies can be done with collaboration. If we want to improve health in general, we need wide collaboration research work.

Now we have protocols of studies.

Different genetic backgrounds are important.

Measure what happens in our mind. Sleep habits, measuring heart rate and heart rate variability. Lower risk of hypertension. Lower blood pressure.

“I am always happy to talk sauna. It is a good thing in our life.”

What is most misunderstood about sauna? “Sauna is a very safe place. Even if you have stable diseases, sauna is good.”

You can keep peace in sauna.

Our lives our quite busy. We have to relax after busy working days.

The Emerging Science of Sauna is upon us.

Thanks to the work of Dr. Jari Laukkanen and his collaborators, we are on the cusp of some impactful and expansive studies and research regarding sauna health benefits. Please read more about Dr. Jari Laukkanen here.This is a just published article, thanks to Sally McGrane, a Berlin based journalist.

As you will hear in this interview, the simple question of “If you could bring a mobile sauna anywhere in the World and sauna” has brought an intention for Jari to collaborate with our team here in Minnesota, USA for an extensive and expansive sauna study, and the birth of the Sauna Research Center.

We have 10,000 euros already secured to “turn the lights on” to start our work. We are in the process of securing more funding to build a new comprehensive study on sauna and health. Perhaps 100,000 euros is a more realistic figure, and yet including detailed biomarker and epigenetic testing, the funding budget will be higher. This will allow us to include a large enough population, provide appropriate sauna protocols, a long enough study duration, and detailed testing before, during, and after the study.

Since the recording of this interview, Dr. Laukkanen and the USA team have been building the budget and protocols, as well as initiating University and private partner collaborations.

The World of sauna studies is on the cusp of becoming an international, intercontinental collaboration!

Interested in helping out with this project? Please email Glenn@saunatimes.com and type in the subject heading: “I am interested in sauna studies.”

The Factory tour

Lets talk a little bit about Narvi. Of the bigger sauna heater manufacturers, we are the only one designing and manufacturing all our products in Finland. With about 70 employees, Narvi grows by sticking to their plan. Narvi is very proud of their enameled heaters that are extremely durable and easy to take care of. And Narvi is an innovator. For example the smoke channels of the Narvi NC make the heater the most eco-friendly in the world. VTT tests the heaters in Finland, and Narvi NC 16 scored 0.07 % in carbon monoxide emissions, when the minimum level is 1 %.  At their factory, real people and sauna lovers are the ones developing and manufacturing their heaters. They are proud about every unit that leaves our place, and it shows.

Wood burning is more popular in Canada. The Baltic countries are strong in the wood burning category.

20% of Narvi sales are outside of Finland.

Wood heat vs. Electric heat

Cool down is a critically important part of sauna

Foreigners who love the sauna have had to work hard to enjoy sauna.

Log sauna building vs. a stick frame sauna building.

25 countries. Does not sell (yet!) in the US.

The private sauna session with Jesse

Our sauna session together at a lakeside historic hunting camp in Western Finland was a private sauna experience, in a very old sauna building, fueled by a wood burning heat Storing AK95.

We learn how a heat storing sauna stove operates. Closing the smoke valve. Insulated heat chamber. This stove allows for a classic smoke sauna (savusauna) experience. A few hundred kilos of stones. At least 700 pounds of rocks.

No direct contact with the rocks. Continuous burning stoves require lots of oxygen. Oxygen circulates better in a wood fired sauna. Ventilation is one of the most important things in a sauna.

The noise tells quite much. The slower the heat comes.

Today on the sauna bench we sit with Brian who is perhaps the most researched yet least experienced sauna aficionado in the world.

Connecting through consulting services

One of the things I do in the world of sauna is offer consultation services. I don’t offer this service to make money, but more to help others realize their authentic sauna dreams. And the other reason is that though I do love to help, my entire day may get sucked up by answering questions and helping guide.

I get to meet some great people through SaunaTimes consultations. And today you will hear from one of them: Brian from Austin, Texas (last name withheld as he is on witness relocation program).

Brian and I had a SaunaTimes consultation session. Then he came back with several additional sauna questions. And many of them were what I call “400 level thinking.” These consultations are often like tennis for me, where the harder the ball gets hit in my court, the harder I hit it back in the client’s court. I found myself engaged in long volleys with Brian. The more he researched, the more engaged I became with our dialogue.

Which way the sauna wind blows

Bob Dylan rightfully says that “you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.” For when we feel good heat, it’s all over. So why should we listen to a guy who has done nothing but research about sauna, without much sitting on the sauna bench? Well, I’ll tell you why. Brian’s approach to his own backyard sauna is fresh. He has an uncanny ability to process information from multiple sources. Brian applies data points without prejudice. He can smell BS and can sift through pedantic chatter. Brian is a weatherman who has figured out which way the sauna wind blows.

We dive into the holy trinity of good sauna (heat, steam, ventilation). You’ll hear about his evolution from barrel saunas to kit saunas. How he graduated away from a custom sauna build in his backyard, and also away from hiring a local contractor in his area. You’ll hear about his conclusions of ceiling height and ventilation. All spot on, my opinion. My 35 year 3x a weak multiple sauna build with my own hands experienced opinion.

Our texts and emails went on and on

Most people come to me after experiencing good sauna, and then are compelled to make it happen for themselves. Not Brian. Brian is admittedly very sauna inexperienced. But I dare say that he is one of the most researched sauna person I know. He attacked the project of his own backyard sauna with vigor and inexhaustible energy. I think you’ll find his conclusions and choice for his own backyard sauna very interesting.

We got to sauna recently during my own trip to Austin Texas, where I was on my own version of witness relocation program. A lot of good things come out of conversation on the sauna bench. I’m happy to report that this conversation is one of them. I’m pleased to present to you Brian, the world’s most research least experienced sauna nut in the world.

Final note, as of this podcast, Brian is now becoming more experienced. He’s just taking delivery of his own backyard sauna, and is about to lose himself in his own thermal goodness. Three cheers to Brian, Thanks man, I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and playing sauna tennis!

Today on the bench, we welcome Todd Furneaux who is spearheading the building of the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna is being constructed as part of Running Man, a three day festival happening outside of Atlanta Georgia this mid October 2023.

During this episode, you’ll hear about Todd’s company and cohorts, All Day Running. And how the idea of building the World’s Largest Sauna was surely fostered on the sauna bench or in the cold plunge. As with endorphins running and community spiriting, this is the environment for Sauna Talk and crazy out there thinking.

Atlanta steeplechase. Grass track. Sauna Village, fun zone, DJs, live music, conferences,

October 17, 18, 19 event.

Sauna can hold. 250 – 350 people at a time.

Mechanics of World’s Largest Sauna

Specially designed Todd Right Brain Thinking:

• 3,000 square feet in modular squares using 4’x4′ framing material.
• Side walls: sauna tent material 3 ply oxford. 9′ tall 20′ wide.
• Flooring: cedar flooring.
• Roof: Greenhouse style sauna inspiration from NorthUp in Minneapolis. Clear polycarbonate roofing. Same material It’s rated to over 550f. to melt it. The material let’s the light in. There is a greenhouse effect with clear polycarbonate as roofing. On sunny Atlanta days, it’s about 120f. before lighting to the stove.
• Sauna stoves: 13 large Kuumas. oven for every 200 sf.

Prototype: 200 sf sauna 20’x10′. A great way of testing the temperature of things. How the size of the panels.

Final dimensions of the world’s largest sauna

65′ x 45′ with extra 200 – 400′ square feet entry and exit.

Exercising your immune system

Running and Sauna.. they go hand in hand.

Maob, Utah.  The mobile sauna has received official dispensation, and has been trailered up to the summit shelf.

The Canyonlands National Park District Director is sitting on the sauna bench to our left.  His hat and uniform hang on a hook in the changing room, where a candle glows softly on the window sill.  The candlelight sheds enough glow for us to see a big smile on his face.  "I'm so glad you guys convinced me to do this!." You are sitting with us for a pre sunrise sauna and the director is telling us stories about the majestic park.  We hit a generous splash of water on the sauna rocks.  We take it all in.  Then we exit the hot room to this:

The air is crisp, below freezing, but your body is radiantly warm.  The endorphin rush buzzes, akin to the feeling after your favorite exercise.  You've heard stories and have untangled some wires in your head on the sauna bench and now it's time to let nature do it's magic.

This is Sauna Talk with Justin Evidon.

We discuss his relatively recent deep immersion into authentic sauna in Minnesota, pulling from his Estonian genetics, time in Scandinavia, and work at the Wellness Center at the University of Minnesota.

We discuss the benefits of travel, health and wellness, millennials and consciousness away from our mobile devices.  We discuss the yeoman's work of JP and the 612 sauna society and the budding movement towards sauna in an urban environment.  Be it at a cabin sauna, an urban backyard sauna, or a mobile sauna, please welcome to Sauna Talk travel and lifestyle photographer Justin Evidon.

Today from any one of 22 saunas, we Sauna Talk from the Great Northern Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.

“The Great Northern Sauna Village is a social and therapeutic experience hosted at Malcolm Yards. Visitors can immerse themselves in sauna culture by interacting with various Thermaculture traditions. And connecting with local sauna companies and builders. During 60-90- minute Steam Sessions, guests can explore various types of traditional wood-fired sauns. These include barrel, mobile, and backyard units; tent and floatings saunas. And a new shipping container event sauna for 20+ people. All this, while experiencing multiple forms of heat, steam, and aromatherapy with the cold contrast therapy of winter air and snow.”

The numbers speak for themselves: 22 saunas from over a dozen Saunapreneurs. Some of whom I’ve known, supported, and encouraged from back in the day when sauna in the public domain, even here in Minnesota’s sauna country, was fringe and not so enthusiastically embraced as today.

Sauna Talk glowing from the Sauna Village

You can see and feel the sauna glow. And as you listen along, you will be able to catch the spirit from a few of the people behind the scenes at the Great Northern Sauna Village. The event is three long weekends long. Here, we catch up with the folks today snap dab in the middle of the event on a chilly grey Saturday afternoon. Those interested in attending can catch the event during its last weekend, next weekend. Tickets are a reasonable $40, and available via the link supporting this podcast on SaunaTimes.com.

We start off this episode with Shaelyn from Superior Saunas, the mayor of the Great Northern Sauna Village. We meet up with Darin from Urban Wing, Jessie from Deep Wave. John from Superior Saunas, Nomad Phil. And Excelsior Saunas Jim, Matt from Superior Saunas, and a few other selected guests along the way.

Wherever this podcast may find you, I think you’ll enjoy getting to know what’s happening in this region. The boldly self proclaimed Sauna Capital of North America. Here is where you’ll find open arms, steam billowing, endorphins rushing, and cold water plunging.

I want to introduce you to a close friend of mine.

I Got know Steve about 20 years ago. Steve has embraced the authentic sauna experience at my island cabin sauna up north through multiple “boys weekends” at least 20 of them in total. Some of the cabin visits have been in winter but most often in the fall when we close up, and in the spring when we open up. Steve has always been a great help and supporter of that process. Cabin maintenance can be a pain in the neck, but with a guy like Steve it’s a it’s a lot of fun.

This Sauna Talk episode is significant for me because I want to share with you first hand nuances about building a sauna. I have wanted to document the nuts and bolts of building your own sauna from the casual builder/home owner perspective for some time now. This documentation is independent of and in addition to my e-book Sauna Build, from Start to Finnish.

In this episode of Sauna Talk, you will learn firsthand what it takes for an amateur builder to undertake the construction of their own authentic backyard sauna. You will hear all about the lifestyle change for Steve and his wife, since completing the sauna, on Thanksgiving. That’s been about 100 days ago. I did a little math: Steve and his wife Amy (and their kids when they’re in town) have enjoyed their backyard sauna 95 out of the last 100 days.

You will learn more about the shed build concept. We have to keep in mind that though it’s fairly straightforward to build a sauna from the ground up, building a shed takes extra ladders and tools. We need extra hands and we have got to be up on a roof. The concept of hiring a shed company to shell up a backyard shed is discussed in this episode. This is a great way to jumpstart your sauna to build.

We talk about how much does a sauna cost? Spoiler alert: I’m gonna give you the total right here: $7,400. Including hiring the shed company. It is worth listening through to the individual costs of building your own sauna.

Additionally, you will get some information about Steve’s method of Sauna building. Steve’s focus was to get the Sauna completed and functioning. His line is that you can always make wider trim. Steve was not so concerned about measurements to the 16th or eighth of an inch and I commend him for that.

You will learn some tips that he and I have collaborated on. Example: cedar fencing is a wonderful, inexpensive way to panel. Though not recommended so much for the hot room but in Steve’s changing room, cedar fence paneling looks awesome. I use cedar fence paneling all the time to make my own trim. Steve has taking this to a deeper level. Additionally I am able to capture Steve’s wife Amy, as an additional guest to Sauna Talk. Amy did not grow up with Sauna. She has experienced some sauna action at the health club. Their own backyard authentic sauna has been a formative change to Amy’s wellness and well-being.

I enjoyed visiting with Steve and Amy and detailing for you how much they have been appreciating the authentic sauna experience.

Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we welcome three guests who are aligned to helping veterans through sauna as a means of healing our heroes.

Their stories are heartfelt, their passions are clear. And for those of us who know sauna, we know that their purpose is meaningful and their success rate undeniable. (ie sauna is good for us!)!

Who is Healing Heroes Saunas? The co-founders, Mike and Josh: as introduction:

Mike Lotzer

On the right side of the bench we have, Mike Lotzer. Mike is the Lead Pastor of Mercy Road Church in Burnsville, MN and served in the Army Chaplain Corps. from 2004-2012. Stateside, Mike served as a Casualty Notification Chaplain, Special Troops Battalion Chaplain, and Marriage Strong Bonds Instructor.  Also, he deployed in the Iraq War.  

Mike has walked with soldiers, families, and loved ones through extreme pain both stateside and in combat zones. His experiences caring for dying soldiers have birthed a lifelong commitment to serve and empower Warriors and their families. Mike has been married to his wonderful wife Erica for 18 years. The couple have three children and live in Lakeville, MN. Mike has a B.A. in Comparative World Religion and Psychology from the University of Wisconsin, a Master of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a Certification in Combat Medical Ministry and Suicide Prevention from the U.S. Army Medical Department.

Kirk

Center bench, we welcome back Kirk Jensen to Sauna Talk. Kirk is longtime host and fellow board member of the 612 Sauna Society. You can learn more about Kirk as he was a recent guest to the Sauna Talk podcast. Kirk spent 34 years in the Air Force. He retired as Lieutenant Colonel with +7,000 hours as a C-130 Navigator. Kirk participated in every conflict during that time. Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia. Kirk’s “day job” is flight simulator trainer for the Air Force.

Today, you can find Kirk either near the Minneapolis St Paul airport, where he runs Air Force flight training or alongside the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, where he serves as longstanding sauna host.

Josh

On the left side of the bench, we have Josh Meisberger (42). Josh has been married for 19 years and has 2 wonderful teenage boys. Currently living outside of Minneapolis in Apple Valley, Josh and family saunas frequently (3-5 times per week) enjoying their permanent wood fire sauna in the back yard of their home. Josh and family are active members at Mercy Road Church in Burnsville.

Josh spent 22 years in the military with 2 combat tours to Iraq before being medically retired for various military related injuries. Currently, Josh owns a construction company (Rare Homes Inc) where he and team do everything from small bathroom remodels all the way up to custom builds and commercial space work.

Mike and he more recently started Healing Heroes Saunas as a way to give back to the men and women who serve our communities in Hero rolls including Veterans, Police, Firefighters, and all first responder, along with their families. Mike and Josh are currently working on their 501c3 filing, as well as fundraising so that they can expand our reach providing hot and cold therapy. 

Josh and Mike are very close to finishing their second unit, which will immediately be deployed around the state of Minnesota. They have a long term goals of 5-10 units in the state of Minnesota, as well as being able to build more permanent saunas at their residence for Heroes on an application basis.  

Currently you can find them on Instagram @healingheroessaunas.

We are pleased to welcome Travis Skinner to Sauna Talk!

We’ve been following Travis’ work since 2017, starting with his Snail Shell sauna project. This sauna build project is a creative nod to the Fibonacci Sequence, one of the most famous formulas in mathematics. In this episode you’ll hear from Travis about the origins of this sauna, using a yurt frame as a foundation for building this sauna.

And let’s not forget the Steam Roller sauna. Here is a link that describes and illustrates the Steam Roller sauna build project. A really unique shape. A canted wall that helps draw and roll the steam in the hot room.

Then, it’s on to the Angler Fish sauna project. We wrote this sauna build project in 2018.

And now we get to hear from the creator, designer and builder: Travis Skinner.

We’ll learn about the “stacking function of sauna.” Where sauna can be multi function, multi purpose.

Travis has a key interest in collaboration. Coming together with other artisans to craft as much as possible with their hands.

“Working with hand tools allow us to feel the materials we work with” explains Travis.

On a side note, my interview with Travis reminded me of some of the most resonating aspects to sauna design and building. The right brain conceptualizing. Travis stays far away from what could be called “tradesmen dogma”. There is no “you should do this” or “don’t do that” with Travis and sauna building. Rules, rigidity, and fear are not a part of Travis’ mindset.

Travis’ approach was so timely and refreshing to me. As I look to help others with their own sauna building projects, many are easy tripped up and entangled with fear based push backs from tradesmen: thermal bridging, moisture trapping, off gassing and other terms hidden as “advice”. You’d like to think that professional builders are really out to help people, but often they appear to want to pound their chests to the casual amateur sauna builder. Is it fear, insecurity, stubbornness? Who knows, but what we do know is that Travis exudes none of this.

Travis is an artist in all the best sense of the word. He is as happy working with metal as he is with wood. He respects the origins of his material and is hyper conscious throughout his entire plan and build process.

We catch up with Travis outside of his tiny house in Bellingham Bay, close to Canada in Washington State.To keep up with Travis and his creations, please visit him at www.100handed.org. Instagram @pairoducks

Sauna Talk: Kirk Jensen is a host of a thousand saunas (and more). Kirk is one of the lead hosts at the 612 Sauna Society sauna, Minneapolis Minnesota USA.

This episode may be especially interesting for those considering starting a sauna business. Or for those who have attended a “butts on the bench public sauna” and want to know more about how sauna host manages the comings and goings of sauna guests.

Today on the virtual sauna bench, i’m pleased to bring you Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, author of the new book Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat.

We join Emma from her home in North London. And, we hear from Emma how the idea for this book was seeded through the pandemic. Plus, how the health benefits of sauna helped make the book happen.

In the book, Emma does a great job outlining the reported health benefits of sauna, and we touch upon a few of these during our interview.

You wil be transported to how Emma and photographer Maija Astikainen became fast friends, collaborators, and travel partners through the Nordic regions of Europe.

Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat is shipping starting mid September. Pre orders are available now via Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Editor’s note

During Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, we need to dive deeper into Sauna Brain! What it is and why it’s good, but I forgot where I left my towel and water bottle.

Glenn’s notes

I found myself reaching for a pen many times while reading this new book! So, a few excerpts and notes include:

Health Benefits: Good reasons to roast

Sweat

“Sauna makes us sweat which is a good gym work out for the organs and the blood vessels,” says Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University in Sweden.

Sauna Detox

We produce about 0.5kg of sweat in a 30-minute
sauna, and while around 97 per cent of this
is water, studies have shown that some toxins
and heavy metals are excreted too, and sweat
does this more effectively than urine.

Good Stress

Hormetic stress is “good stress”. Things like
jumping in a cold pond, or competing in a
marathon, or making a really complicated cake
are examples of good stress.

Temperatures of around 38°C to 40°C stimulate
the immune system

A few other sauna health benefits from our Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly

Inflammation

Charles Raison MD, professor of psychiatry
at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (USA),
is an active proponent of this theory. “Since the
1980s, we have known that depressed people
are hotter and find it harder to sweat,” he says.
Plus, “The pathways that control our ability to cool
off overlap with pathways that regulate our
mood. Body temperature and mood are
directly linked.”

Pain relief

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. So, for those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Immunity

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. For those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Blood Pressure

Laukkanen’s seminal study found that those
who took sauna baths four to seven times a
week cut their risk of high blood pressure by
almost half compared to once-a-week sauna
bathers. Why? Well, the most common theory
is that the increase in body temperature during
sauna causes blood vessels to dilate, which can
increase blood flow and improve the function of
the endothelium – the tissue that lines the inside
of blood vessels.

“Nature teaches more than
she preaches. There are no sermons
in stones. It is easier to get a spark
out of a stone than a moral.”
John Burroughs,
The Writings of John Burroughs, 1913

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Tom Carlson, a sauna enthusiast and a SaunaTimes public sauna map supporter.

Tom caught the sauna bug in Germany, and brought home his love and appreciation for good heat. And, like many of us, Tom recognizes how good sauna is like a candle that lights another candle. And with this, there are really good saunas dotted all over the world.

Several years ago, we built the SaunaTimes Public Sauna Map. With over 200 entries and counting, there’s a good chance that as you arrive in a new town, you’ll be ale to click through and find a kick ass sauna for you to attend. And for Tom, you’ll hear about his commitment to helping all of us find good saunas wherever we may be. Currently, he and Kevin are SaunaTimes public sauna map champions.

But I would like you to know how I first met Tom. It was a couple Sauna Days ago, at Larsmont Cottages in Two Harbors, Minnesota. A guy walks up to me with a Wisconsin 6 pack in one hand, and outstretches his other hand to shake my hand. “This is for you. You helped me realize how great sauna is. Thank you Glenn, you’ve pretty much changed my life.”

Wow, those are big shoes to wear. However, thankfully we were both bare footed, and we both hit the same sauna bench and shared some kindred spirit thermal action. And like convective heat transfer into hot rocks from protected elements, a logical, long lasting connection was made.

Tom’s Travels

Tom lives in Wisconsin USA, and on a whim, came through Minneapolis, and naturally found himself on the bench in my backyard sauna.

We share stories and steam. And are joined with quiet guest Darin from Urban Wing.

As bonus, we enjoy an extended löyly. And if you are driving, please don’t close your eyes, but this extended löyly is for you.

Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we visit with Anya and Dan Bondarenko from the Banya House. Dan is Latvian, with Ukrainian family heritage. Anya is 100% Ukrainian. Her town has been completely destroyed from the Putin invasion. Anya is a nutritionist, with a focus on plant medicine.

We gather in their outdoor backyard sauna….. er.. banya. The Banya House, Prior Lake, Minnesota. The design, size, and structure is comparable to the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, a sauna that I had a big hand in building. So, I was very comfortable in the Banya House. The heat is kick ass, as is the spiritual patina, as is the fabulous Latvian style pirtis venik treatment.

In this episode, we learn the difference between sauna and banya. The answer? Spoiler alert: it’s not that different! That said, we detail the nuances. And the difference lies within the two biggest measures of hot room climate: temperature and humidity. Where some orthodox sauna preachers claim the importance of tall ceilings and the löyly pocket, we get a very different approach of good hot room climate with Dan and Anya.

Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us. And with banya, we bring nature into the banya. Nature plays a big part in Slavic banya. Essences, teas, vennik / whisks are all front forward with banya climate and culture.

Terry is a career handyman and caretaker.

His territory is the islands of Lake Vermilion, Tower, Minnesota.  Terry was brought to Pine Island in diapers.  He endured small stretches of time away from Lake Vermilion, with his family living in Hawaii for a few years and a career with the Duluth News Tribune in Duluth.

Yet, primarily, Terry has spent his life on the lake.  He has been an invaluable help to many dozens of Lake Vermilion cabin owners.  His skills as a handyman and builder are infinite.  He has hands in 40-50 different cabin projects.  He manages 40-50 cabins, which includes such tricky annual work as docks in and out, water systems shut down and opened up, plus the myriad of things that come up from roof leaks, to bees nests, to, well, you name it.

If you’ve had anything weird go wrong at your home, chances are Terry has encountered exactly this, and many times over

Terry, just like myself, has built about a dozen saunas himself.  I’ve learned some tricks from him, and i’d like to think he’s learned a few tricks from me too.  We have spent many sauna rounds on the bench discussing building nuances.  It’s a testament to his passion to the trades, as well as his continued interest in learning and expanding his knowledge base.

One of Terry’s favorite lines is: “what one man can do, another can do”, from the movie “The Edge”.   The movie is about a wealthy businessman, played by Anthony Hopkins, who with his son in law, played by Alec Baldwin, get into a harrowing chase down by a grizzly bear after their single engine airplane has to make an emergency landing in the wilderness..

But Terry isn’t worried about bears on Pine Island.

The expression for him is about not being daunted by problems that come up with projects.  And sometimes these projects are overwhelming for the specialists who had initially been called in.  After the “pros” shake their head no and get boated back to the public landing, most often Terry comes in and fixes the problem.  I’ve seen this first hand.

One of my lines is “getting the right tools and materials to the job site is half the job.”  This is hard to dispute for island work, which Terry does most of.  Sure you could argue that cutting the grass is only 30% about having gas in your lawnmower, blade sharpened, and the right shoes on, but when i’m building a deck, for example, I know that having all the right tools and materials on site is half the battle, and the least fun.

The third philosophy of tackling projects is something I often see with how Terry operates.  Ryan Holiday, in The Obstacle is the Way, presents us with: “that which blocks our path creates a new path.”  Nowhere is this more exemplified than with completing projects.  I can’t tell you how many times that I’ve hit a stumbling block, only to realize that the obstacle was trying to tell me something: “there is a better way, you stubborn fool.”

• Can’t find any finish nails?  Damn it.  Well, i’ll glue and screw it.  Turns out it was the right thing to do.
• Hit my thumb with the hammer?  After a big swear word, turns out, grabbing my crow bar was the right tool after all.
• Screw breaks off trying to undo the fitting for the dishwasher?  Well, replacing the fitting was the right thing to do because it was going to rust out, anyway.

Terry lives this kind of thing.  He practices a growth mindset.  Things are going to fuck up.  No question.  But what appears to be a problem or a set back usually turns out to be a path to a better solution.

This episode with Terry is part of the 218 Series of Sauna Talk.

We heard it with Daryl Lamppa, who spent countless hours in his garage learning about how wood burns, and tinkering with the design of his sauna stove.  And with Terry we see this same type of devotion to his trade.  A care and commitment to making something remarkable and making it right.  These kind of people impress the heck out of me, and we can all be more like this with our projects and in our lives.

Lastly, for those tackling their own sauna build or home project, i’d like to introduce you to WIT.  You can read here about how applying the Will, Information, and Time to your project, whatever it may be, will lessen the amount of money you will need to throw at your project, and will certainly maximize your satisfaction with the project.

So, Terry is one of my top mentors.  He’s saved my ass countless times at the lake.  I try not to bug him as he’s always going from one cabin to another, working hard everyday.  But when I see him, i’m always happy.  And we have a great time taking a sauna, too.

Need a fall project?  Now is a great time to install a freeze proof faucet for your backyard garden hose shower.  More here.

Today on the bench we welcome Jon Sabes to Sauna Talk. Jon is a successful entrepreneur, founding multiple companies in the health and insurance industries. Jon is a high performing athlete, completing several marathons and triathlons, events that just thinking about their rigor makes me want to hit the “no thanks” button and take the short tour to the sauna bench and cold plunge, and hear about the pain later.

Foxo Technologies

During our chat, we learn more about his current company, Foxo Technologies and their work in the scientific field of epigenetics. Epigenetics is cutting edge science that studies how our genes express due to lifestyle and environmental exposures.  Jon’s using molecular level analysis and technology to change an insurance industry…and improve the health of its customers for the better! 
Knowing how and why genes express healthy or unhealthy outcomes is going to empower people to make better lifestyle choices to extend their healthy longevity.

Hormesis

What’s interesting, and not surprising, is that many/most of the leaders and scientists in the field of longevity are into sauna, and hot/cold therapy. Dr. David Sinclair, author of Lifespan, is one example. He digs sauna, just like Jon, you, and me.

As it turns out, Hormesis, and the body stressors from temperature extremes, thermogenesis, is one of the impactful ways we can strengthen the healthy expression of our DNA – think of it like exercising your cells at a molecular level. Trigger our cellular muscles with sauna and cold, impacts our DNA expression in very positive ways.

The Sauna Research Institute

We talk briefly about the Sauna Research Institute and the early work in which SRI is engaged. Studies are in development. And Jon, as a Sauna Research Institute founding board member, will be helping advance research that will help us better understand why siting on the bench in our kick ass saunas, then immersing ourselves in cold water, followed by cool downs in Nature, then chilling out with a smile on our faces, and feeling so fucking awesome, has such a powerful impact on our health and wellbeing.
We know why good sauna is good for us, and it is going to be very interesting to get a better understanding as to why.

The Sabes Sauna

Though he has built a very successful life for he and his family, Jon is also a deep thinker and philosopher. He keeps himself grounded, centered, and down to earth. He is deeply in tune to nature. 

I am including a few photos from his Minneapolis, MN sauna. This one of several saunas in Jon’s portfolio sits along the shores of his Lake Minnetonka property. We will look to share some photos of his other saunas, down the road. For now, here’s The Sabes Sauna in action:

The sauna building journey

Jon shares with us more about the sauna building journey, how he and I collaborated to design what guests and sauna aficionados are calling “one of the nicest saunas in North America.” Jon smiles shyly with the compliment, yet takes more pleasure in its use, than its comparative ranking. As Mikkel Aaland is known to say: “the nicest saunas are the ones that get used,” I say that good heat is universal. It knows no difference of income or tax bracket.

To sauna with Jon, you will experience him diving off his dock, after some pull ups between rounds, then returning from his lake cold plunge in a deep, calm, meditative stage, relaxing in any one of several chill out zones either finding himself outside the hot room, on the deck or the dock, or the zen garden to the left, or common area to the right of the sauna building.

Snacks between rounds

On a side note, Jon’s sauna sessions are of duration familiar to many of us: at least a couple hours. During the times I have sauna’ed with him at his Lake Minnetonka sauna, Jon will bring down from his main house an assortment of fresh fruit, apples, grapes, and a wedge of cheese and some pretzel snacks. What’s crazy is that this is the exact combo I often engage for my sauna sessions. There’s something fitting about this combination. A few light grazing bites between rounds,  as we drink our mineral water, kombucha or a cold beer is a nice sauna compliment. Highly recommended! For more sauna culinary tips, please note here.

I am especially pleased how during our Sauna Talk episode, Jon was able to outline a few guiding principles for the design of his sauna. And Finally, as you will hear, Jon boldly proclaims what sauna means to him: “sauna will always be an important part of my life.”

Can you relate?

Please welcome Jon Sabes to Sauna Talk.

The Sauna Talk Craft Brewery Series continues. We first interviewed Omar Ansari, founder of Surly Brewing, inside his wood fired sauna, episode here.

Today, we head up to Duluth, Minnesota to Sauna Talk with Ben Hugus, co founder of Ursula Brewing.

You will hear similarities with these conversations as there is a parallel to the craft brewing industry and sauna.

In this episode of Sauna Talk, Ben Hugus, co founder of Ursula Minor Brewing, talks about the camaraderie and collaboration involved with starting Duluth’s 8th craft brewery.

“We all get along. We share ideas and we all benefit by helping each other out” he says.

Ursula Minor collaborated with Larsmont Cottages this year for Sauna Days, bringing their craft beers and even a special batch of Sauna Beer, specifically made for this past weekend’s sauna gathering (by the shores of Lake Superior!). The nuances of the beer are quite special. (hint: spruce tips!).

Normally we Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, yet we recorded this episode in front of a live audience at Larsmont Cottage’s main lodge.

Today the bench we visit with John Breitinger.

John is a Minneapolis resident and commercial real estate developer who has been in this field for a while. Currently, John is doing some major consulting work for a large bank. He has a cabin about two hours north east of Minneapolis Saint Paul, Minnesota. This cabin is a very old-school cabin with a few outbuildings. As you will hear described in this episode, one of the buildings on his property is a garage. Built in the 1930s with a lot of character, he got to scratching his head and thinking well this would be an ideal place for an authentic sauna.

John’s recently completed sauna build project

John is a great photographer. He captured the building of his sauna. Check out this post here. In addition, you’ll see John’s meticulous approach to his sauna building project. Being a commercial real estate developer, John is well familiar with all of the aspects to a project. He leaned into this build with much the same rigor and enthusiasm as with his day job.

Yet there are two things about John that bare noting: One is that he stumbled upon the authentic sauna experience much like many of us, through his overseas travel in Europe, Northern Europe specifically. The deep heat stayed in his bones, like it does with a lot of us including myself. John brought that feeling back with him to America. Here, he was able to realize this feeling again.

The second important thing about John and sauna is his deep, soulful appreciation with the healing nature of sauna with within oneself and also as a community gathering opportunity. Based on John’s experience with the Native American sweat lodge, he is acutely in tune to the adaptation of that practice as a healing and a bonding potential element for a gathering of people. I think this is explained well by John in this interview.

I am happy to have lent my hand as a consultant to John’s sauna build. He did it right, on so many levels as you will hear in this episode.

I wanted to introduce you to John through my eyes, as a friend talking casually on the sauna bench. Once again Sauna keeps giving and giving. Authentic Sauna draws just so many great people into my life I’m very grateful for this.

Please welcome my friend John Breitinger to sauna talk.

The Sauna Talk global cross continent series continues

We are pleased to welcome Mika Meskanen and his partner Wendy Liu to this joint podcast. We are publishing this episode on Sauna Talk as well as on their new podcast. Mika and Wendy are fresh on the beginnings of their enterprise entitled: Saunawave where they look to be “hosting meetings with remarkable heat seekers and embark on secret journeys to explore the new wave of global sauna culture”. As a designer and an architect they are also keen to craft sauna experiences that are both innovative and true to tradition.

This conversation happened via tele computer, late 2020. Glenn close to his Minneapolis backyard sauna and Mika and Wendy from their London home.

A great visit, where Mika and Wendy were inquisitive about the American sauna culture and environment. Here, we talk about the Sauna Belt in the US, which compares only to the bible belt, rust belt, and other belts mentioned by Mika, only in comparative context that they are belts.

We discuss how the best saunas are the ones that get used

Mika is founder of the British Sauna Society. He and Wendy are a couple who have helped bring a growing and enthusiastic group of British sauna enthusiasts together. Mika by all rights should fill out a waiver form. As he is a Finn living in Great Britain, he has an inside track as to what good sauna means as it is surely in his DNA. Yet who better to lead the charge of the British Sauna Society. Wendy is a fearless and open-minded sauna explorer as well as a front-page ice free diver. Mika and Wendy are kind and thoughtful. They are kindred spirits. They understand and value the depth sauna. The soul of sauna, the goodness behind good sauna, and the sanctity of sauna. Authentic sauna.

I am excited to share with you this interview with both the founders and the builders of the living, breathing, functioning art sauna project called The Solar Egg Sauna.

There are two separate interviews within this episode. First, we hear from the artists and creators behind the Solar Egg Sauna. They are a pair of Swedish artists, known as Bigert and Bergström. During the second part of this podcast, we hear from the two builders. They flew to Minneapolis with the sauna from Sweden. As we sat on the sauna bench, we discover interesting details regarding the construction behind the elaborate project.

A working sculpture commission

The construction company Riksbyggen. commissioned the Solar Egg Sauna in Kiruna, Sweden in 2007. The company contracted with the artists to build this installation as a conversation piece to raise awareness of the fact that Kiruna, a town of 20,000 people, was to be moved, making way for iron ore mining.

Bigert and Bergström are known for thought provoking art pieces surrounding climate change. Their mission is not so much to take a political stand, but to lead people into conversation about our place in the world. Their works asks the question: “how can we become more conscious towards how our actions affect Nature and our climate.”

Flown in from Sweden

The large solar egg sauna flew in from Sweden to Minneapolis, Saint Paul. This is an amazing feat in its own way. Re assembling this sauna requires thousands of screws and intricate fittings.

As a sauna builder, and knowing that many listeners to Sauna Talk have also built their own saunas, we appreciate the details behind this sauna built. In this case, we have a sauna of unique and grand magnitude: a 16′ tall ornately scaled and supported Golden Egg Sauna.

Come sauna in the Solar Egg Sauna

Thanks to the American Swedish Institute for bringing this beautiful art piece to the United States. Interested in reserving a Solar Egg sauna session? Register here:
Cost: $30-$35 for a half-hour.
When: Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday through April 28. 
Info: asimn.org/solareggsauna.

For those attending, bring a pair of sandals, a towel, and an openness for conversation on the sauna bench. The artists created this egg as “an incubator of ideas, as a poetic metaphor.”

So, let’s take a step into the Solar Egg Sauna and visit with the two artists and the two builders behind this beautiful thought provoking and conversation inspiring art installation.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome a random, spontaneous, non rehearsed or edited collection of Finns, talking about sauna.

I didn’t make a big deal about this interview process. I simply approached a few Finns on the street today, in Helsinki. I didn’t stick my microphone in people’s faces, but tried to be respectful in approaching a few people who didn’t seem to be hurried, or appeared to have an idle minute or two in their day. I’m happy to say that every guest I approached was kind and respectful to me. As you will hear, all were very open with me about talking about sauna and their life with sauna.

Last time in Finland, in 2109, I interviewed 12 guests for Sauna Talk, all in one way shape or form connected to sauna. We had Jasper the Finnish actor and owner of löyly spa, We had Sauna Timo, and Kimmo Helistö, owner of two public saunas in Helsinki, and Jesse from Narvi, the folks from Harvia, Dr Jari Laukkanen, Satu and Carita from Sauna from Finland, just to name a few.

Yet today, I’m warmed to bring you the voice and straight up Sauna Talk from these random guests.

The intent of these interviews is to help share with you what sauna… authentic sauna… means to the people in Finland, the motherland of sauna.

As sauna becomes more and more popular, I think and hope you agree that the integrity of sauna is becoming more and more important. The Finns, by nature, are understated and polite. Many have no idea how their word and tradition – sauna – is being adopted and dare I say “manipulated” for commerce, profit, and marginalization.

It’s been said that the worst sauna in Finland is better than the best sauna in most other countries. This may be true, but what is true are the following words from Finns.

Welcome to Finland.

Welcome to sauna. Real sauna. Authentic sauna.

Anyone lucky enough to have a hard copy of Mikkel Aaland’s 1978 book Sweat can page through his journey into the various sweat bathing practices and traditions from all over the World.

Throughout his book, we enter with Mikkel into a Mayan Temescal, a Russian Banya, a Japanese Mushu-buru, a Native American Sweatlodge, and of course a Finnish sauna, amongst other cultural sweat tradition practices. Throughout his global journey, Mikkel gained an understanding of the common human experience. The communal experience and the experience of getting clean, and in my words, the ability to feel and say “aaaahhh” when water is tossed on hot rocks to create steam.

As a young world traveler, Mikkel put it all together. He was able to connect the dots of these different “sweat” practices, and has helped us come to the realization that we, as humans, share a special bond of sweat practices, and we aren’t really all that different as a species.

Fast forward to 2019, and Mikkel was deep into another form of world travel. He and film crew began revisiting these places and sweat traditions around the world for his documentary called Perfect Sweat. The documentary is currently in edit mode and has been halted by corona with a couple episodes still to go.

We have the pleasure to visit with Mikkel in his homeland, Norway, at his homestead, outside on his deck, overlooking a majestic river and source of his cold plunges between sauna rounds. Though Mikkel and family live in San Francisco, he has had the good fortune of being able to spend his summers in Norway. During this “crazy year of 2020” he was able to squeeze his way out of the US and over to Norway, once again.

We will hear about how being in lockdown at home during corona was a safety hazard. We’ll hear about Mikkel’s daily routine, which includes healing, hiking and sauna.

Only someone of Mikkel’s background and perspective is able to share a very clear picture where we are at relative to the current pandemic and how it relates to gathering and sweating on a sauna bench. There is something in our history that is quite relevant, and I’m pleased to be able to share with you Mikkel’s observations and parallels during this interview.

Mikkel Aaland is our first returning guest to Sauna Talk. We have had “the iceman” Wim Hof on Sauna Talk. We’ve had the seminal sauna researcher Jari Laukkanen on Sauna Talk. We’ve had author Scott Carney and the backyard acrobat Steve Freidricks on Sauna Talk.

And now, for the second time, I am pleased to introduce Mikkel Aaland, our guest for this episode of Sauna Talk.

Today on the bench we have Daniel Wilson. We met in Minneapolis Minnesota in a very cool kind of way. My wife and I were at a coffee shop and Dan popped up and said: “are you Glenn from Sauna Times?” I felt a bit humbled in a movie star kind of way, but he was very gracious about introducing himself and we talked about what an influence Sauna Times has had on his efforts towards building his own backyard sauna in Minneapolis Minnesota USA.

Dan and his roommate did a lot of research and learned how to build their own sauna. They focused on the elements with in the e-book “Sauna Build from Start to Finnish” and so at the coffee shop, we decided “let’s get together and sauna sometime, so this is the result of this intention.

Dan brought along his girlfriend Omina, and my wife Julia stepped in with us on the bench. As the four of us gathered, we were joined by Brian Peterson photographer from the Minneapolis Star Tribune newspaper. Brian, by the way was a previous guest here on Sauna Talk. He is one of the premier Nature photographers alive today. What a pleasure having him back to my backyard sauna.

It was -20°F which is pretty damn cold. Brian was out traveling around the Twin Cities area capturing how people were dealing with the bitter cold. This was an assignment for a team of the newspaper photographers. Brian had this realization that most of his photography colleagues from the newspaper would be documenting people in misery, as they trudge along walking their dog, or waiting for the bus to show up. Brian took a much more positive tone to the project. He knew that I probably would be taking a sauna at some point during this polar vortex, so we could’ve worked out a better time for this episode of Sauna Talk with Brian snapping some photos.

As Brian shows up, you’ll hear a little chaos but that’s OK. Our chat will venture over towards Wim Hof and we talk about hot and cold and how great it feels to have that kind of extreme temperatures. A lot of this information we share and enjoy. We visit in conversation Dan’s backyard Sauna build project from a millennial wellness perspective: what his sauna means for him, personally, to have his own backyard wood-burning authentic sauna as an enjoyable part of his life, and his roommates life.

There is this very cool intertwined way that we connected. Dan was down by the creek in Minneapolis doing some cold plunging, and hooked up with John Pederson who is a recent guest to Sauna Talk. He and John talked and connected, and took a sauna, and now that’s how intertwined Sauna is, especially in Minneapolis Saint Paul. We are blessed to have some really cool photos taken from Brian Peterson on this night and we are able to check them out here on saunatimes.com. So, without further ado, please welcome Daniel Wilson to Sauna Talk.

Let’s welcome Carrie Drinkwine to Sauna Talk.

We start our sauna rounds with wet hair. The oils of your own hair are healthy.

Carrie’s medical history

Dietetics and Nutrition Science major. Masters in Holistic Nutrition. Aligned with beliefs. Practicing as a nutritionists. Became ill with chronic problems. Lupis. Antibodies over 481. Hashimoto: an autoimmune disease where the body is attacking its own tissue. 6 years ago. Could not move from laying down to sitting up. Chronic pain. Everything was amplified. Chronic anxiety and depression. Could not sleep.

She took Western medicine to “get through the day.” She kept getting more and more drugs diagnosed on her plate.

Going Eastern

Naturalpath doctor. A Western approach to Eastern thinking. The same approach wasn’t resonating with her. You couldn’t touch her skin because she was in such pain from Lupis.

A God wink

A regenerative detox

beyond desperate and skeptical.

Within 14 weeks she got a reversed diagnosis. Dr. Robert Morris. Certified regenerative detoxification expert. Dr. Pastick.

Wise Wellness

Working full time diligent detoxification work. A lot of hours being put in but she goes to bed each night knowing that she is helping people.

Sauna as proper detox

Sauna came into her life Dr. Morris. Specifically steam and wood fired but not infrared. Healing of lymphatic system. Get your body to an internal temperature the core body as well as your skin. Your skin is considered to be your third skin. Your body is always on your side. Your skin will help your kidneys if your kidneys are backed up. Kidneys need support. A kidney and lymphatic problem. Steroids dumb down the histamine being produced in your body. The root cause of. A top recommended protocol is sauna and cold bath.

Skin cleaning, lymph cleaning, and helping your kidneys through detox. When your kidneys stop filtering, your body gets backed up. The pond becomes more like a lake.

The five systems of flow.

Expanding our cells. Bringing fluids and alkaline in. Shrinking of cells to purge waste.

Minerals

Hydration is a hot topic. How much mineral and water. Absorption is critical. Not so much volume. Intracellular water vs extracellular water. Acidic vs. alkaline. Getting minerals into the body. Cellular male-absorption. ion minerals. The body has 90 trace minerals. If you are eating a well balanced diet, you are usually getting your proper minerals. When you go into sauna, or excessive exercise, it’s important to be able to replace minerals.

Your cells tested for absorption. 99% absorption rate to invite minerals into the cells. Water with proper minerals and absorption. Ion5 and Ionic Elements.

A higher mineral diet

Hunger is not often from the stomach. What your cells think is what your self thinks. “We need nutrition!”

Organic fruits and vegetables

Herbacides and pesticides.

Decades of soil degradation. Came from a profit incentive. We are losing our nutrition and health. Weeds are important. We are not carrying the minerals and nutrition in our foods.

Mineral replenishment is so critical.

A day in the life of Carrie: diet and sauna

Sauna day:

• 10 mineral drops in the AM.
• 10 mineral drops before sauna.
• 10 mineral drops after sauna.

8-10 oz. of water with your mineral drops if fine.

Coconut water after sauna.

wood fired sauna vs. health club sauna

Organs getting hot vs. just your skin. Not feeling so zapped with a well ventilated sauna.

Expanding lung capacity.

Fresh cool down opportunities. It doesn’t smell like a pool or chemical. Earth elements

Sauna is a priority for me

You can get an equivalent of an hour or two of exercise with the cardiovascular health of sauna

Living on the alkaline side of the fence. Alkalinity is something that heals the body. 80/20 rule. 80 percent of what i put into my body is alkaline. You want to have balance in your life. Maintaining an alkaline balance in our life.

Alkalinity through deep breathing

The breathe is very powerful for maintaining alkalinity. You want to deep breathe. Deep diaphragm breath. Soul breathing. “All breath is good.” Soul breathing allows for oxygen to get into the cells. No chest movement. 5 minutes of this is better than a cup of coffee. “100 breathes to joy.” Continuous flow to breathe.

wisewellness.net.

“meet your body where you are at.” If sauna makes you uncomfortable chances are your body is acidic.

Non structured environment.

We are all connected. This is as much as i can handle. Honoring that. Your body is designed to heal when you give it the right environment. The sauna is an absolutely vital part of this.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Alan Jalasjja who shares with us “The Spirit of Sauna.”

Alan is an evangelist who is with us to help promote the experience. Growing up with sauna his whole life, as a Finnish Canadian, we get the perspective of what sauna spirit means to him.

World Sauna Forum 2024

The growth of the event compared to 2022

Globe and Mail article

I encourage you to click through the link towards his Op Ed opinion piece that recently appeared in the Globe and Mail, which discusses “enjoying sauna in the now.” Sure the health benefits are there for the long term, but wow, let’s enjoy our sauna time now.

Thermal cycle

We discuss the value of time. The holy trinity to a good cool down: cold water, nature, time.

The four elements to sauna

• fire
• air
• water
• earth (the stones).

Some magical gems from Alan, and happy to share with you here.

It is day 4 into Glenn’s 50 saunas in 12 days in Finland journey. This evening we are visiting with Satu Freyberg, Head of International Marking and Carita Harju, Founder and Executive Director, of Sauna from Finland.

We have gathered for Sauna from Finland’s 10 year anniversary. And what better spot than Savutuvanapaya, a lakeside resort featuring multiple saunas by the shoreline, in the heart of Finland’s Lake Country, central Finland.

What is Sauna From Finland?

Well, in my words, Sauna from Finland is a commercial sales and marketing company. They are all about promoting the authentic sauna experience. They represent Finnish companies that produce sauna and sauna related products. Satu and Carita recognize that sauna is perhaps Finland’s greatest export. And who is to argue this?

In Finland, sure there is Rapala lures, and a handful of heavy equipment and industrial companies whose names I can’t pronounce let alone tell you what they export out of Helsinki harbor. And today Nokia could very well be behind Narvi Sauna Stoves in terms of export sales, so who is to argue that sauna is Finland’s greatest export?

So, we have Sauna from Finland. They recognize (just like me!) that authentic Finnish sauna deserves and needs to be protected, and promoted! With so many cheap imitations from China, and fragmentations of huckster marketers hawking infrared cabins and calling them saunas, it is more important than ever to help communicate, share, build, and promote the real deal. Authentic saunas.

As you will hear in this episode, most of the companies that Sauna from Finland represents produce products that complement the Finnish Sauna experience, companies like Lumene “with its heritage in wild Arctic nature (Lumene) has gently harnessed these rare Arctic and Nordic Elixirs combining them with pure Arctic Spring water and carefully selected skincare ingredients to create powerful radiance boosting skincare and makeup that work to restore the skin’s natural strength, beauty and luminosity.”

And there is Ledify. “Ledify‘s sauna LED lighting is made for all kinds of saunas from luxurious spas to private wood-burning saunas. As a Finnish family business, our operations are guided by traditional Finnish values; Reliability, authenticity, and perseverance with a close relationship with nature.”

Are you with me on the authentic sauna trend?!

Are you getting a picture as to the thought process of Carita and Satu? Sauna, and “traditional Finnish values” are very much on trend. And Finnish sauna is frigging amazingly awesome for our wellbeing. 30 years strong for me. How about you? And Finnish sauna shouldn’t have to be a trend, but man oh man are we ready for more sauna in our lives! And let’s help bring more authentic sauna to people, like a candle that lights another candle. Have you been inviting people to partake in your authentic Finnish sauna?

This is where I can go on and on about how, in the United States, “90% of the saunas are bad, and the other 10% are worse.” But we are changing this. Just you listening to this podcast helps with the change. And the sauna you built, hopefully thanks to saunatimes or your good research is allowing for “any Finn exiting the hot room shall do so with a smile on their face.”

I am pleased to bring you Carita and Satu, from Sauna from Finland, who are committed and dedicated to the authentic, and to help promote the thoughtfully created products, all sauna related, from the home of sauna, Finland.

Please welcome Satu, and Carita from Sauna from Finland.

A few notes from our time together:

In Finland, often sauna is like taking a shower. Take time for yourself, drink a couple glasses of water. We get so much more from our sauna experiences by relaxing and being present in the sauna moment.

Sauna is about so many things. Ways to add value. Textiles, skin care products, or just ideas to help relax more, and take care of yourself.

“There is so much more that we can get out of our sauna experiences.”

What's your favorite sweat bath?  "The one I just took, and the one i'm going to take next."  Into sweat bathing and all the variations underneath.

Defining what a sweat bath is:  Some kind of a chamber where the air is heated, purpose to induce sweat for bathing.

A Finnish style sauna as part of the neighborhood swimming complex at a public space in San Francisco.  North Beach Pool.  It helps create neighborhood and community.  Interacting in a positive, life affirming way.

Getting the (neighborhood) block into the sauna instead of the best sauna on the block.

Lived and travelled extensively.  Prague, Washington DC, Norway, San Francisco.

Sweat in the '70s.  An exciting time for counter cultural views of the world.  Renewed interest in bathing.  Hot Tubs, sweat lodges, saunas.  Wet Magazine.  The tragic tale:  AIDS epidemic.  Shut down public bathing almost overnight.  Mini dark ages of public bathing culture.

Today: we are back into the renaissance.  Mikkel had started receiving calls from all over.  A whole gamut of people wanting to create their own sweat facilities.  People are doing what they're talking about.  Today is the most exciting time in bathing and sweat bathing he can ever imagine.

Temascal and Sauna: centuries old traditions, developed separately, thousands of years ago.

The epiphany for the book Sweat:  At the Finnish Sauna Society in Helsinki.  A worldwide phenomena.  Initially they were dots wanting to be connected.  Sweat bathing is as natural to humans as the baking of bread and the fermenting of grape.

Cultures create their own type of sweat bath.  But no sweat bathing culture around the equator.  You just go outside and you can sweat.

Sweat creates an altered consciousness state:  You go someplace else outside of your normal everyday life.  You are altering yourself.  A basic human need.

The Dolphin Club:  Sauna and swim in the San Francisco Bay.  Sauna Talk.

Different saunas have different rhythms and rituals.

Spending time in the hot room:  He stays until he gets a good sweat.  He's learned to listen to his body.  It's not tied to a timer.  It's really important to get tuned into your body.

The Sweat Summit.  Greg Moga made it happen.  Gathering folks to San Francisco to Mikhail Brodsky, founder and visionary for Archimedes Banya

Put the BTUs into the banya.  Turkish bath, Finnish sauna, and a great restaurant/cafe with Russian style foods and beers.

Brings people together that normally don't get together, in that very healthy way.

Minneapolis:  Credit to the Sweat Summit, but Minneapolis has an emerging group of folks who are bringing forth the concept of sauna in the public realm.  612 Sauna Society.

North American culture was missing this.  What is it about North American culture that misses.  We're getting closer to flipping the switch towards a time when there can be a public sauna in every block everywhere. Urban sauna revival.  Yoga, brew pubs.  A plan that makes sense economically, that can be applied in a wide scale.

Mobile sauna akin to food trucks.

Silicon Valley mobile sauna society.  A bunch of Finns.  Mikkel is the mascot.

Infrared light bulb closets.  "I just don't get it."

There are so many bad saunas in America.  We need to make it known that these are not good saunas and we need to change that.

$50,000 to sponsor Sweat Summit 2.0.  Who'se in?

The best part of a sauna session?  A collection of small moments that all add up to something wonderful.

Water on the rocks is something that is so important, yet so many people are scared of doing that.

No lecturing in the sauna.  Try to be diplomatic afterwards, but sauna is your own experience.  No ringing out your swimsuit onto the sauna rocks!  Not being preachy, yet understanding good sauna ethic.

Read more about Mikkel Aaland here.

Today on the virtual sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Jackie from Cedar Grove Saunas in Northern Maine. Jackie is just back from her sif week sauna pilgrimage to four countries in Northern Europe.

Jackie has built her own saunas, and is four years into hosting guests traveling far and wide to Cedar Grove Saunas. We are kindred spirits of good heat. We share an interest and passion towards the Latvian Pirtus tradition, spearheaded by Biruté and Rimus from the Lithuanian Bath Academy.

Are you interested in bringing plants and herbs into your sauna practice? Jackie helps us better understand this tradition.

Sauna in Nature is bigger than all of us. And thanks to Jackie, we get to hear her voice and values of how she is bringing this spirit forward.

After hearing about mobile saunas Jackie got the idea to start a business and build another sauna to bring to others. She set off in 2019 to convert a horse trailer into a sauna but it wasn’t easy or quick. Jackie’s high standard of quality, initial lack of carpentry skills, and the trailer’s unique challenges (such as all the rounded corners) conspired to extend the build beyond the limits of her patience. Suddenly she wondered whether other people would pay to use her backyard sauna. However, a spa was born.

BONUS: We begin this podcast with a few brief words from my sauna bench, last night. Friends and neighbors from age 8 to 84 share a couple thoughts to warm your sauna spirit.

I couldn't be happier to share this inaugural episode of Sauna Talk.  We are joined on the bench today with Tom Rolando.  Tom is best known as Chief Operating Officer for Wisdom Adhesives.

During this episode we Sauna Talk about topics including:

• How to manage 2,000 customers in your Iphone.  "Get with it, get on with the task."
• The Iron Range:  218 natural history and culture.  Sauna is what you did.
• International Falls:  Frostbite Falls.
• Pooner:  Tom's father and example of "Do what you love, and you'll be great at it."
• Daryl Lamppa and the Kuuma Stove.
• The magic of Lake Superior.  "The body of water is like non other."
• Building the Lake Superior Sauna.  

Tom's sauna build was the foundation for the Saunatimes' Build your own sauna ebook.   Documenting and focusing on the complete process, start to Finnish, about building your own sauna.

As we talk about Tom's sauna build we uncover how we talking sauna building in phases: I built from the hot room out.  Everything was a feel.  A number of phases, always a work in progress.

Welcome to this mini Sauna Talk episode from inside and around the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna was constructed as part of the RunningMan festival outside of Atlanta Georgia, this past weekend, mid October 2023.

I’ll try to connect the dots to how the World’s Largest Sauna came about. And it started with the folks at Embrace North, building a few saunas for the All Day Running organization. And as All Day Running began planning for the RunningMan festival, well, their experience with good heat and creative right brain thinking on the bench fostered a way to “scale” sauna.\

And we move over to All Day Running’s co founder Todd Ferneaux’s backyard. Here is where Todd built the mock prototype for the World’s Largest Sauna. I’ll spare the nuts and bolts of its creative construction, as you can listen to my recent podcast interview with Todd for more on that.

World’s Largest Sauna building

I was able to lend to help with some of the construction of the sauna and set up.

For now, though, I’d like to welcome you into the event: RunningMan. I attended for a few reasons, and one was to help share what I know about running the sauna stoves. I have used this same stove for 30 years. As elder statesman with more grey hair than most at the event, I was happy to help coach the stokers who became quick studies on stove operation. (note: you don’t have to go into the hot room to see how your stove is performing. If you see smoke coming out the chimney, it needs attending).

Runners and Sauna enthusiasts

Another reason why I was happy to attend RunningMan is to celebrate and experience all the goodness happening with the Venn diagram overlap of people into hot/cold contrast therapy and people into running. As we look at the overlap, the commonalities become clear.

Runners:

• know how to push the limits of human performance.
• are tuned into their bodies.. and their minds.
• get high on their own supply.
• are generally conscious folks who can feel when endorphins are rushing.
• know how good it feels the moment you stop banging your head against a wall.

All above also applies to all of us who dig sauna. And cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly. Knowing our bodies, minds, spirits. Runners, generally, all dig sauna. And when they feel good heat, it’s all over.

So, in this episode you’ll hear from Todd at All Day Running, C T from Nomad Sauna, Tyler, one of the stokers, and a couple other guests, all of whom will give you a good flavor of what it’s like to be in and around the World’s Largest Sauna.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Ragna Marie Fjeld, General Secretary, Oslo Badstuforening.

What does Badstuforening translate to in English? Sauna Association. So, let me tell you a bit about the Oslo Sauna Association. Founded in 2016, the same year as the 612 Sauna Society in Minneapolis, Minnesota. But the difference start here. Where 612 has one sauna, and granted it is the original sauna with the same work horse original sauna stove, benches, walls, and spiritual patina abound, Oslo Badstuforening’s inaugural first sauna seeds were planted in much more fertile soil.

The soil along the harbor of Oslo’s fjord was ripe for sauna expansion. Yes, their original first sauna is still operational, and with a spiritual patina rating of 9.4, but surrounding this flagship sauna is a fleet of 18 additional saunas: 14 other floating saunas, and 4 mobile saunas. And as you listen to this, chances are that these numbers will be outdated and higher.

The Osla Sauna Association train is not slowing down. As you will hear in this episode, the constraints to growth and expansion are, well, just not there.

Revenue? No. They are most often fully booked (and by the way, very reasonably priced for all economies of economic income scales).

Steam master hosts? No. As you will hear, their HR department is busy with applicants. Including doctors and politicians.

Builders? No. Matter of fact, every architect in Norway wants to design a sauna.

Their corporate offices are unassuming and yet buzzing with activity. People dig working here, and their Secretary General, Ragna Marie Fjeld runs a collaboratively effective ship. Let’s listen in.

Today on Sauna Talk, we are pleased to welcome Bruce Oreck, who joins us from his off grid home in Baja Mexico. During this episode, we talk about sauna, Finnish sauna, and his experiences being hosted and welcomed by Finns all over the country. As US Ambassador to Finland during the Obama administration, his tenure was unique in that he served for a long period, from 2009 – 2015, which he says with a wink “was made possible because when they called from Washington looking for me, I told my secretary to tell them that I was out of my office.”

While in Finland, Bruce became enamored with all things sauna, and especially the smoke sauna (savusauna) the traditional, revered style of sauna going back centuries., where the fire is open inside the sauna building, heating rocks directly for hours. Let’s hear from Bruce as we share his love for Finland and good sauna.

This is such a great episode!

Bruce is very well spoken, as you can imagine. He lets us in behind the curtain as to what US ambassadorship is all about. He shares from an American perspective what it’s like to live in Finland.

I have lost count with the number of people who have gotten into sauna, really good authentic sauna, from their time in Finland.

When traveling around North America, have you ever stayed at a place and thought: “wow, this would be a great place for a sauna.” Well, how about visiting a place with 7 saunas? Welcome to Varjola Resort!

Day 4 of Finland trip. After a busy travel day 3 and interview with Dr. Jari Laukkanen, world leader in sauna research, Glenn checks in to the Varjola resort, with all eyes on one of the smoke saunas along the shoreline, heated and ready for action. He is entertained by 5th generation owner Marcus, who offers a few savu sauna instructions for this American amateur: “otherwise your ass is black after this moment.”

Some Sauna Talk episodes are scripted and some Sauna Talk episodes are spontaneous. This episode is spontaneous. This was day 4 and I figured it to be a recharge day. My car was packed. I intended to have a quick visit with the staff, open my notebook and be on my way with a few Varjola facts and quotes.

From a Sauna Talk perspective, I had already hit the Trifecta. 3 days into my trip, and you are able to hear from three very important people in the world of sauna. (how lucky could I be?!)

1. Jarmo Lehtona – sauna expert
2. Risto Elomaa – President, International Sauna Association
3. Dr. Jari Laukkanen. World leader in sauna studies.

It’s like, all on the same team, we have Patrik Laine, Mikko Koivu, and Teemu Selänne (in his prime).

So, I had day four in my head as a breather. But travel is full of surprises. The Sauna Talk hockey team keeps recruiting great players. After my hike, as we ate together and visited, our casual conversation kept opening up. Both Rikka and Hannu were offering some great Sauna Talk, which I think you will appreciate. It’s one thing to write down a quote, but to hear it from their voices (with accents) is so much better! After one too many thoughts of reaching for my recording equipment instead of my pen and notebook, I finally got up and said “hold that thought please!” and ran out to my car, grabbed my recording gear, and said, “ok, can we start again?”

This is the result of my effort. Finland: A land of 5.5 million people and 5.5 million sauna experts. Yet Rikka and Hannu have an inside track when it comes to sauna, as Marketing Manager and Activity Director of the 230 year old iconic, active, sauna infused Varjola Resort.

A few notes from our interview as follows

Adventurous and peaceful activities for guests. Safaris, Rafting, white water rafting, hiking.

Everyman’s rights

A treasure that we have here in Finland. Everyone can move freely everywhere, both private and public land.

There are some restrictions, such as even though you can camp, you may not light an open fire on private land.

You can walk, ski, on any land in Finland

Company related activities

Team building, award. A typical day: meetings first, then an activity such as, in winter: snowmobiling, arctic floating, sleigh rides, and in summer: hiking, rafting, quad bike safari. Christmas parties are expected in Finland

Sauna is always included in company parties

Sauna is never cut back. It is always part of the activities. In tough times, companies may cut back on activities at Varjola, or the amount of free booze, but never the sauna.

7 saunas at Varjola

Electric and wooden saunas. Two smoke saunas, an outdoor tent sauna. Saunas are used almost daily at Varjola. If it is very cold outside, the stove is lit 4-5 hours before sauna. The bigger sauna has 900 kilos of stone. We use 1 meter long logs to heat the smoke sauna. 30 cm lengths (12 inches) of wood is regular length.

Birch and Elder wood are burned in the smoke sauna, but never pine as the pitch creates much soot inside the smoke sauna. People prefer birch as hit has the highest heat value.

Ladies groups come to Varjola for pampering themselves. bachelor parties are popular. They usually always involve sauna.

The rules of sauna

There are no rules with sauna. If you want to wear a bathing suit, you may. Finnish people sauna naked. It is very common. You tear up your rules and titles in sauna. And for the most part, also your gender. You should stay in the sauna hot room as long as you are comfortable.

The elements of a savu sauna

No chimney, a pile of natural rocks. Approved as a savu sauna. People don’t care what kind of sauna you have. You can have your own. The sauna is the character of the person, and how you use it.

We like to believe that the savu sauna gives the best kind of heat. We are using only natural stone The smoothest Loyly is from natural rock. We learn about the Aito stove. A hybrid of the good sides of both the constantly heated stove and the smoke sauna. A hatch allows for the smoke to escape. A good combination of the smoke sauna and conventional sauna. You can adjust the heat as you are in the sauna, unlike a savu sauna. The loyly hatch helps contain the heat. Borrowing the technology of a conventional, continuous burn sauna.

We welcome all to enjoy the freedom of sauna at Varjola Resort, in Central Finland.

Today we welcome a very special guest to Sauna Talk: Dr. Charles Raison. His biography is as follows:

Dr. Raison is a the Mary Sue and Mike Shannon Chair for Healthy Minds, Children & Families in the School of Human Ecology and a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin – Madison. Dr. Raison received his medical degree from Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, where he was elected to Alpha Omega Alpha and won the Missouri State Medical Association Award. He completed residency training at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Hospital in Los Angeles. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Raison obtained his Masters of English from the University of Denver.

Dr. Raison has written and published over 100 scientific papers as well over 20 review papers and editorials. Chapters he has written have been featured in over 30 books, and he has written two books, most recently The New Mind-Body Science of Depression, published by WW Norton in 2017. Dr. Raison’s publications have been cited over 14,000 times, with three publications having more than 1,000 citations. His H-index is 44. The recipient of several teaching awards, Dr. Raison has received research funding from the National Institute of Mental Health, National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His visionary work focuses on the treatment of depression in response to illness and stress, translating neurobiological findings into novel interventions. In addition to his activities at University of Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Raison is the mental health expert for CNN.com.”

Reference: UW-Madisonhttps://www.psychiatry.wisc.edu › staff › raison-charles

Sauna Talk excerpts

We discuss Charles’ academic and personal background, how he has been interested in World’s ancient practices including Buddist Tuumo meditation, where Tibetan monks are wrapped in cold wet blankets and through breathing and meditation, are able to warm themselves for a long period of time. The area around research and studies to treat depression are of special interest. Reaching a hypothermia state has proven health benefits. Dr. Raison’s 2010 depression study with 16 people, who reached 101.3 degrees f. shown a marketed decrease in depression. The participants actually lowered their internal body temperature.

The World leader in Hypothermia

We discuss other work and studies happening right now in the United States, through Harvard University and Massachusetts General. Also Ashley Mason’s work in San Francisco. More on this soon! The Vail sauna lab Eagle County Co. is an interesting place. The disparity of rich and poor, and people moving their and experiencing the Paradox of Paradise, are likely culprits that lead to the area having the highest suicide rate in the country.

Ashley Mason, UCSF. Heat has an antidepressant effect.

Transforming mental health

The good news is a private investment of $100mm towards a new hospital in Vail that is committed to transform mental health in this country. Providing equitable care for rich and non rich, integrating mind/body practices. Vail Health is set to be a world class research institute. Heat, thermal studies, psychedelic research are all areas of study. It is an exciting time for sauna research.

The CHILL study. Can you benefit from heat whether you are taking an antidepressant or not?

This episode tees the ball up for our follow up conversation which I will be equally excited to bring to you in the future.

So, for right now, I am pleased to present to you Dr. Charles Raison.

Today on the bench was the day the coronavirus became front and center in the United States.

We visit with Rod Buhrsmith

His Father in Law had a brain aneurysm, and he really leaned into assisting with this family emergency.

Stokeyard Outfitters

Activating two sauna locations: Hewing Hotel and The Village, 4700 Nicollet Ave. S.

“Mobile is kind of our thing.”

The use of mobile assets (mobile sauna) has allowed Stokeyard Outfitters to activate in Minneapolis.

The Village is only 5 blocks from Rod’s house. There are certain things that happen away from the Village, like filling water, printing the roster, etc. Creating the hot room ambiance to assist for when the guests check in. A linear trajectory of growth. Within the community are partners more than just logo sharing. Tactical on the ground partnership.

Add scope on the fly.

Eddie, the new owner of Parkway Theater is busy with his own organic project. This has given his property in South Minneapolis more of a runway of time for Stokeyard Outfitters to operate and activate in the space.

Last year was the busiest sauna year of Rod’s life. Cold plunge became a regular part of Rod’s sauna routine. The 5 gallon water bucket with a 32 oz. deli cup leads to an outdoor shower connected to a garden hose, and then a $72.99 100 gallon stock tank cold plunge.

The Friday Happy Hour Sauna, a decades old tradition birthed over at 4700 Nicollet Ave. S.

Stokeyard Outfitters commissioned for two mobile saunas from Custom Mobile Saunas (now called Voyageur Custom Saunas).

The yard pallets: a great solution for standing outside in bare feet. They roll up easily, and weigh 25 lbs. Inexpensive to make. Rod made 40 of them.

The building of Omar’s mobile sauna. “We are not builders of anything” but we are outfitters. We care about the equipment we use. Whether it is a Snowtrecker tent sauna or a Voyageur mobile sauna, Stokeyard Outfitters builds activation of sauna.

The mobile sauna. A great design with 3 legs of a stool. Two wheels and the tongue can be adjusted to position the mobile sauna to allow for water to shed, or make the structure level. The catalyst for a mobile business. Programming and activating, and seeing real success with Full Moon and Aufguss with Alex at the Hewing. When Stokeyard bought these units, they were in the mobile sauna business. Activating in Nature or at breweries and certainly at 4700 Nicollet Ave. S., the Village.

Geo-spacial technologies: Rod’s day job. They lower dramatically the barriers of entry. Testing an entrepreneur’s passion with a mobile solution. Trips to Portland, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, etc. as a sponge to see what can happen for mobile businesses and development projects to “dilapidated urban assets”. Pop up.

Rod’s philosophy of investing.

“I like to invest in the people.” MBA in entrepreneurship. Business is always something I think of and am doing.

Have invested in auto body repair, refractive surgery, satellite systems, geo-spacial startup, Gerhardt brats.

Not trying to boil the ocean, but they are really passionate about what they are doing. They have a way of trying to make it happen that resonates for me. They are modestly trying to create something and make a living from it. Classic angel investing. Life coaching with small businesses. Long enough to get certified. Slivers of capital and time, as wings underneath people who are doing it full time.

My secret to enjoy this busy life is to create buffers in my day. Managing my time and how I show up. I have to be prepared which means being on time or early. Everything is set up, ready to engage. Let’s get going. Don’t let things linger too long. Keep it fresh.

Sauna, mountain biking, meditating, stretching, being disengaged from people is how I recharge.

Sitting on the sauna bench.. what can be talked about here is different than most environments.

You have got to take care of yourself. What it means for you is just fine. Movement, recharging, Get to know you and what makes you work best. What makes me work best is these three things:

• physical movement
• alone time and
• deep connections with humans.

The calendar allows Rod to schedule is own time. The calendar is an A lister. Building the boundaries and buffers. 30 minutes or an hour between things is not wasted time, it is extraordinarily useful.

On average, Rod takes sauna every other day. He keeps track of when he saunas. He keeps this information on a spreadsheet. 13-15 sauna sessions per month. “I rarely have to schedule a sauna.” He is able to fit in a sauna and create a window of time for movement and then sauna. Professional commitments are scheduled, and the “movements” will fill in between these commitments. There are so many ways to do movement. The sauna is great for a non movement day. Let the sauna do its magic as an off day for movement.

Favorite moment of sauna?

1. When the fire catches in the sauna stove.
2. Riding up the first round. Stretching and moving as the hot room rises up to temperature.

If you could bring your mobile sauna anywhere in the World?

Any where would work. The Bruhl River, between Superior and Ashland Wi. The water is in motion and is cold. Something about having the sauna next to water. Lake Superior is not a bad choice. Fresh, fast running water.

If you could sauna with anyone in the World, past or present, who would you choose.

Ghandi.

What do you think is not yet understood about sauna?

Sauna offers numerous things at once. It is this thing that looks like a closet and gets hot. And so a well designed sauna creates many benefits. It can reset. Circulatory benefits, meditative benefits, muscular anatomoic benefits, social benefits. Lighting a fire, splitting wood, there are just so many benefits with three rounds of hot and cold.

There is so much more to it than what one may think.

Today on Sauna Talk we re-welcome Jon Sabes. Jon is a returning Sauna Talk guest, first being episode #061, and we rejoin together again, on the same bench for this second episode. Jon spends most of his time with his wife and family in Los Angeles and also in Baja Mexico. He was back to Minneapolis for a winter weekend, and we met for a cross country ski at his Lake Minnetonka house as the sauna was idling its way up to serving temperature.

I love interviewing authors. And for a handful of reasons. One is that I know how much dedication, ambition, and focus it takes to write a book. From start to finish. Another reason why I like interviewing authors is that when it’s a compelling subject, the interview process is easy for me! Our conversation flows like good steam in the hot room. And this is how I felt, sitting on the bench with my good friend Jon Sabes.

Healthy Wealthy Longevity

We discuss his new book, “Healthy Wealthy Longevity.“ And in his book, you will learn some practical strategies to help you live a fulfilling, happy life. On the bench, we discuss a few key takeaways including:

• Intentional Living: how small, consistent actions can lead to significant improvements over time.
• Compounding Effects: how minor daily habits, whether positive or negative, accumulate, profoundly impacting your overall well-being.
• Holistic Approach: how to recognize the synergy between physical health, financial stability, and emotional happiness,

Through practical advice and insights, “Healthy Wealthy Longevity” serves as a guide for readers aiming to intentionally design a life rich in health, prosperity, and joy.

There are several nuggets in his new book that stay with me, and you’ll get to hear some of them right now..

Oh, before I forget. I have been using Jon’s daily journal for about a month now. It’s insanely good and if, like me, you’re looking to get your train back on the track, I recommend you order his pocket journal and make it a part of your morning routine. The journal helps me organize my goals and tasks. It helps ground me with gratitude and appreciation, helping me on my journey towards living a happier life.

And PS.. Jon is a fellow board member of the Sauna Research Institute. There are some great things brewing in the area of sauna research. And those of us interested in sauna will be hearing more from Jon Sabes and SRI.

Today on the virtual Sauna Talk bench, we join Marishi Morchida 持田 摩利支, from the Japan Sauna Institute 日本サウナ総研. Marishi joins us from his apartment in Washington, DC. During this episode, we learn about the active Japan sauna culture. How thermal bathing is intertwined into Japanese culture. You’ll learn some key differences between Japanese sauna culture vs. North American in particular. Like many of us, Marishi is a serious sauna enthusiast. Not so much frown serious, but super into it passionate serious. Marishi shared with me that he was a bit nervous to be on Sauna Talk, but I think you’ll agree, he comes off just fine.. as if we were right there on the sauna bench… with you!

Link to the 2021 Japan Sauna Institute survey is here.

Hi Marishi, welcome to Sauna Talk.  Please share with us where you are from, where you are now, and what you are doing where you are now. 

I am originally from Japan. I was born and raised in a city called Hiroshima, then I moved to Tokyo for my undergraduate studies. After college, I worked in Tokyo for several years, and that’s where I fell in love with the public bathing culture of Japan. People say that Tokyo’s population density is one of the highest in the world, but what they don’t realize is that Tokyo’s public bathing density is also one of the highest. I don’t have any data to back this up, but I’ve visited many major cities in the world, including Beijing, NY, Singapore, and Tokyo is definitely a bathing paradise. Anyway, that’s where I fell in love with public baths, and that’s where I fell in love with saunas.

After working in Tokyo for 5 years, I wanted to continue my education in the US, so I moved to Chicago to get my MBA. I graduated last year and am now based in Northern Virginia.

Tell us more about your “day job.”

I work for a company called Capital One, which is a large financial institution that focuses on the credit card business. What’s interesting and scary about the credit card business is that everything you do with your card is captured and stored as data.  I analyze that transaction data and come up with a plan to improve our products or improve our strategy. “Customers don’t like the rebate percentage on this product”, let’s change it. “Customers in the construction industry turn out to be the best fit for our product”, let’s talk to them more. That’s my day job.

Sauna. I sense it is an important part of your life, as well. When did you first become exposed to sauna and describe the type of sauna to which you’ve been exposed ?

I also feel that sauna is an important part of life! I can’t even remember my first encounter with a sauna. It was when I was a small child, and my father and mother were both big fans of hot springs. We visit the local public bath like every month, and when our family plans a family trip, they almost always make sure that the place we’re staying at has a high-quality bath for customers. Most public baths and hotels in Japan have saunas, and I just followed my father.

It was not until I started working that I really saw the value and power that sauna has. This is just my personal opinion, but suffering and anguish improve your sauna experience.  When I joined a company, I was just a stupid kid who didn’t know how to talk to my boss properly. This is really a big problem because I was working in a big Japanese company with a long history and hierarchical structure, and my boss often picked up my words and scolded me.  I woke up every morning around 5:30 a.m. and worked until 10 to 11 p.m., and when I went home, it was usually midnight. During this period of my life, the sauna helped me a lot. Every day after work, I would go to a gym and just go into the sauna without exercising. I just did nothing there. I would just relax without thinking about my work, enjoy the sauna and cold shower, and then go home. I’m very sure that without the sauna, my life would have been much more miserable. 

As for the type of sauna, I do everything. I like electronic sauna. Traditionally, many saunas in Japan are extremely dry, but lately more and more places have more humid, Finnish style sauna too, I like it. I used to go to Russian banya in Chicago and I loved it too.

Now that you are in the US, you have a special perspective of sauna in two different countries. Two different continents. Please share with us your observations about similarities and differences of sauna in US vs sauna in Japan. 

It’s so different, the only similarity I’ve found is that a sauna is a sauna. Both countries have many electrically heated saunas. That’s where the similarities end. 

One big difference I have noticed is where people enjoy saunas. For many people in the US, correct me if I’m wrong, but sauna is something you enjoy at home. Or at least a gym or membership club, a place that only a limited number of people have access to. So when I go to a sauna subreddit, people are almost always discussing what saunas to buy instead of what sauna to go to. 

In Japan, saunas are a major form of entertainment, regardless of gender or age. Public saunas are everywhere, and you just invite your friends, co-workers, or family members to go together. Let’s be naked, enjoy the sauna and drink good sake or beer, that’s how we deepen the connection with people. 

Another thing is silence. In Japan, you’re expected to be quiet in the sauna, and in many spas you can actually see posters that say you have to refrain from talking. But in the U.S., not just in the sauna, it’s very common to make small talk with someone you don’t know, right? At first I wanted to concentrate on the sauna experience itself, but now I really enjoy talking to people I meet in the sauna.

The Japan Sauna Institute. How did you personally become involved. Give us a history of the organization and your involvement. 

Japan Sauna Institute was established in 2015. It was started as the first research institute focusing on sauna. We’re also different from other similar organizations in Japan in that our members are just ordinary sauna users while other organizations are mostly operated by companies. We aim to provide insights from user’s perspective, and conduct various studies regarding the sauna industry in Japan. 

I joined the Japan Sauna Institute in 2021, and it was just a coincidence. When I was doing my MBA, I wanted to study data science. I talked to one of my friends, and he said that if you want to study data science, the best way to learn it is to actually write a script to find out something you’re interested in.  I was into saunas, so I thought it would be a good idea to analyze sauna data with Python. 

So I scraped data about saunas from all the public baths from some websites, created a big data set, and just played with it. I analyzed the data to find out things like the best temperature of the sauna room, the best temperature of the cold plunge, which district in Tokyo offers the best access to the best saunas. At first, I just wrote an article on my personal blog, but at some point I thought it would be great if I could work with like-minded people, so I googled to see if there were any organizations doing research on saunas. I found the Japan Sauna Research Institute, I e-mailed them, sharing a link to my blog and that I would like to collaborate with them, then Tachibana, the head of the institute, told me that I should just join the institute.

The sauna study. This isn’t your first one. Tell us about it’s history and how you organize the study, how many participants etc. who they are. How you find them. 

We started the Japan Sauna Survey in 2016, with the aim to provide quantitative data and analysis on the sauna market in Japan. I suppose this is the same in other countries, but the sauna and spa market is very fragmented, and the vast majority of them are not small companies. What this means is that there is not much public data provided by companies and as a result people only talk about sauna based on their perceptions. That’s why we thought it was important to provide companies in the industry and sauna enthusiasts with a broad overview of the market. Since then, the Japan Sauna Survey has become our annual work, and especially after Covid, it has become an important health checkup for the industry. The good news of the latest survey is that we have seen a solid rebound in the sauna population after the decline due to Covid in 2021.

The study, and I will publish it in the show notes, reveals some very interesting data. What couple few things stand out to you in the study results ?

One thing I would like to point out is that the sauna population is on the rise again. As everyone knows, the Covid 19 pandemic was terrible, but it really took a toll on the sauna industry in Japan. Japan is one of the fastest aging countries in the world, and people are generally very conservative, and many people stopped going to the sauna. Some cities, including Tokyo and Osaka, enforced a lockdown, so literally public baths in those places were forced to close, which was a huge blow to that business because you still have to pay utilities, you still have to pay rent, all those kinds of costs. The population of casual sauna-goers, which we call “light sauna-goers,” is still much smaller than it was before Coverid. It’s about 8.5 million now and it was about 15 million before covid, but the medium and heavy sauners, people who go more than once a month, have actually recovered almost to pre-covid levels.

Let’s talk about sauna bathing in Japan. One of the aspects that I respect and appreciate is no jankification in the cold plunge. What do sauna bathers do after exiting the hot room and before entering the cold plunge ?

For many sauna enthusiasts in Japan, the cold plunge water is sacred. You have to make sure you either take a shower or do kakemizu, which means scooping water with a small basin and washing away the sweat before using the cold plunge. 

I think this custom has its roots in the hot spring culture of Japan. People are expected to wash their body or do kakemizu before using the hot spring bath, and we have to do the same for the cold plunge.

Electric vs wood fired?

Personally, I like wood-fired saunas a lot, but unfortunately, there aren’t many public saunas that have wood-fired saunas.

Sauna tents?

I have no experience with sauna tents. What a shame!

Back to you and sauna. How would you describe good heat ?

Back in Japan, when I was still new to sauna, one of my friends told me that good sauna or good heat makes you sweat, and that’s the definition of good heat for me as well. Personally, I like hot sauna with higher than 200 degrees Fahrenheit, relatively humid, and the heat should be dispersed and evenly distributed in the room. In short, I like hot, humid, sweaty heat. 

Are Americans f***ed up (I’m kidding! Am I?)

I don’t think so, America is a great country.  It is a land of opportunity and I really enjoy the amount of personal freedom I can never have in Japan. The only thing I would like to say to the USA is that there should be more public bathhouses in the USA.  I really wonder why there are not many public bathhouses in the US. I’ve been to Russian and Korean spas in Chicago, NY, DC and every time I go I have such a wonderful time. I think part of the sauna experience is meditation. Just focusing on the heat and your body, away from all the outside stimuli from friends or smartphones. In the last decade, meditation has become a big part of many professionals in the US and I think sauna has a great appeal to this segment of the population.

If you could have a mobile sauna and bring it anywhere in the world, where would you like to go and enjoy a sauna session?

I’m a big baseball fan, so I would like to take it to a baseball stadium and watch baseball while taking a sauna.  I’m not necessarily a big fan of this, and you probably won’t like this idea either, but a lot of saunas in Japan have televisions in them. Normally, people don’t care too much about it, but whenever there is a big sports game, the sauna room has a strange sense of unity. I would like to have a similar but more real experience by bringing my mobile sauna to a baseball stadium.

If you could sauna with anyone in the world, dead or alive, past or present, who would you choose?

I honestly don’t have a person’s name, but if I had to answer, I would say people who have ever said no to my invitation to go to the sauna. When I was doing my MBA in Chicago, I invited many people to go to the sauna together, and some people said, “No, I’m not interested. I don’t understand”. I really feel for them, they should at least try it once and then they can judge if it is for them or not. So when I have a change, I want to take those people to the sauna and see their reactions. 

When you know it is going to be a sauna day for you, from the morning of anticipating sauna, to going to sauna, maybe the preparing and lighting of the stove, the first heat up, the first splash of löyly, the first cool down, second, and on, all the way through to going to sleep at night, what is your most favorite moment if you had to pick, one of your favorite moments of sauna? 

This is an interesting and difficult one. I love every part of my sauna experience, from the anticipation to going to bed that day and having the best sleep. If I have to choose one, I like drinking beer with my close friends after 5 sauna sessions. Sauna is the best spice for food and the best spice for creating a bond with people. That’s my favorite part.

What do you think is most misunderstood about sauna, that you would like others less familiar with sauna to know and better understand?

Some people in Japan treat sauna as a kind of mental and physical training. It’s so hot and uncomfortable, but if you can endure this difficulty for 5 minutes, you’ll be fine and healthier. I think they’re missing the essence of sauna. Sauna is comfortable. You don’t have to stay there for a certain amount of time, you can get out whenever you want and take a cold shower or jump into the cold water to cool down.

In this episode of Sauna Talk, we get a behind the scenes view of Wisdom Woods, Spooner Wisconsin from Managing Partner Nate Focht.

“Sitting on the sauna bench, everything that comes out of your mind is pure.”

– Nate Focht, Managing Partner, Wisdom Woods.

Ever wondered what a $100,000 sauna looks like?  Well, how about we add another zero to that number and double it.  That’s what we experience while taking a sauna at Wisdom Woods.  The hot room is symmetric and generously sized 12’x12.’  Thankfully, we made the ceiling 7′ such that the wood burning stove can do its job heating the sauna to good temperatures.

Transom windows to the South and West plus a full glass door give the hot room a light airy, spacious feel.  The “money seat” is in the middle of the West wall, whereupon the sauna bather can gaze through the full glass door, past the full size exterior window in the hallway straight out to the lake: a wide view .  This treatment is example of how we welcome the outside in at the Wisdom Woods spa.  Nature is everywhere.  Nature wins at Wisdom Woods.

The awesomeness of this sauna experience starts to reveal itself once we leave the hot room and make our way down to the sandy beach for a cool lake plunge.  The small lake rarely has boaters.  It is crystal clear: deep and cool.

Heading into cool waters after sauna round at Wisdom Woods

As we gaze back up to the spa, our endorphins start firing and we feel like kids at a playground.  Should we go inside the spa for a drink?  Should we hang out on the deck and relax?

Where should we sit?  The generous deck spreads all the way around the spa building at Wisdom Woods.   Hanging out at the front area, we settle in and look out over the lake.

We can find ourselves walking to the back side of the spa and gazing out over the extensive wetlands, another vista of beauty to reflect upon.

Nate takes us on a virtual tour of Wisdom Woods.  60 acres of trails, adjacent to hundreds more on County land.  Hiking, mountain biking, canoeing, kayaking, fishing, skeet shooting are just a few of the more popular activities at Wisdom Woods.  With an emphasis on wellness and sustainability, guests to Wisdom Woods stumble upon interesting features scattered about the property.  On this episode, we learn about the organic community garden, the bee hives, the new brewery, and the solar panels that provide energy back to the community.

Nate is a Modarem:  A Modern Day Renaissance Man.  He is a nurse in town, a father, a white water kayaker, a canoe guides man, a Hot Shot fireman.  He’s jumped out of planes and he can stitch a cut hand.  Nate is the kind of guy you want with you while hiking a remote trail.

Please welcome Nate Focht to Sauna Talk.

Today’s Sauna Talk podcast episode is with Lewis Jenkinson, who shares with us his heart and soul of good sauna. Today on the bench we welcome Lewis Jenkinson from the absolute midpoint of England, just North of Manchester. With the rise in interest of sauna – real sauna – (not lightbulbs, toaster ovens, or other minimally ventilated fragmentations), it’s interesting to learn how others have become impassioned with and driven towards advancing the authentic sauna experience in their lives.

It’s a simple formula, really. And In Lewis’ case, his drive towards authentic sauna was propelled through his resonating positivity of contrast therapy. We’ll hear his journey while marshal arts training, then cold immersion therapy, and onto the sauna bench. Lewis’s unfulfilling sauna experience at the gym sauna, heated by a toaster oven with 9 rocks and terrible ventilation, has driven him deep into the depths of discovery into the authentic, quality sauna experience.

Many of us curious enough can become knowledgeable about good sauna and are in clear understanding of the Holy Trinity of good sauna (heat, steam, ventilation). And Lewis is right there with us, a kindred spirit of good heat.

Sauna Talk topics for discussion
Trip to Germany – oh boy this way incredible. We get to hear about his Therma Erding, the World’s largest spa, just outside Munich, Germany.

History with Sauna, getting hooked and mental wellbeing – started martial arts, diet and exercise. Moved on to cold water and breathing, finally discovered sauna. All my adult life has unknowingly been searching for powerful ways to reduce symptoms of stress, anxiety and Insomnia. I was later diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD which made total sense.

Cedar Sauna Company – Knew I needed my own sauna so started a mobile sauna company to share with the UK but then began to import and build barrels from Russia. Realized not to rely on imports and studied sauna construction. Company enquiries are flooding in and the company is going from strength to strength quite rapidly.

Sauna in the UK – the scene is growing quickly. There is a huge rise in mobile sauna businesses and I manage a What’s App group with my friend which was created to help mobile sauna entrepreneurs set up and run their own business through sharing information with other businesses owners. In true British fashion, the UK seems to be moulding it’s own sauna culture taken from cultures all over the world including Russian, Finnish, Estonian, Lithuanian and German styles.

What is good heat – manageable and breathable. A heat which initially seems mild but creeps up on you almost imperceptibly, sending your heart rate higher and higher until you have to leave. A cold plunge is essential and the thought of which helps me to keep with the heat a little longer.

Recurring Sauna Talk questions
Mobile sauna anywhere in the world – someone already said space which would be serene but I’m gonna go with a winter riverside landscape with lots of people. Everyone would be invited to strip off and enjoy the sweat.

Sauna with anyone – my grandfather. He was a stoker for the navy so I recon he would have taken to sauna quite easily.

Favourite sauna moment – cold plunge, before or after. This is where the world goes quiet for me. My normally racing thoughts go quiet and it feels like pure serenity. Sauna helps me to spend longer meditating in the cold.

What is most misunderstood about sauna – that it is intense. It shouldn’t be. It should feel as relaxing as a warm bath on a cold day.

This is episode #100 of Sauna Talk.

Do you want to know the Sauna Talk origin story? Well, when I started this podcast in 2016, 8 years ago, the idea was to help capture a bit of what felt like on the sauna bench. That’s a place where deep, collaborative conversations can happen. It’s often a place of untangling the wires in our heads, where our minds can open up to creative thinking, and problem solving.

It’s a fun place. Sauna Talk is described here as:

Sauna talk is a different kind of talk. It is casual talk between a father and his teenage son, and reconnection talk with a friend you wish you could see more frequently, or collaborative talk amongst NHL hockey players or business partners working through a strategy. This happens because we have no distractions and we are relaxed in mind, body, and spirit.

As we know, sitting on the sauna bench creates an interesting environment. Our bodies are being stressed, yet we are feeling very relaxed. For many of us, talking and thinking is difficult. Yet for others, it’s an environment where thoughts and ideas start flowing like in a kaleidoscope of colors.

In this episode, you will hear some excerpts from a few of the 99 episodes:

Tom Rolando

The Sauna Talk origin.

Tom and I are still very close buds. He and I are working on the book Sauna Life, and it’s a slow process.

Daryl Lamppa

Daryl Lamppa 22:46 – the old style stoves in the area.

Scott Olson

17:48 peddling to hockey stores.

18:15 Finding the hockey player entrepreneurs in their own towns.

Wim Hof

17:03 Sauna & Cold. 19:03

Dr. Jari Laukkenen

30:10-30-55 goals for further sauna research

#063 Alex Blyashuk

29:35-32:06, explaining veniks.

#072 Bruce Oreck

33:20-35:21. Finland happiest country. Explains his reasoning.

#097 Lasse Erikson

Bring the owners into the sauna.

35:20 – 37:18. That feeling that you have contributed to something good in life.

I hope you enjoy any one or number of these 100 episodes! It has been a pleasure hearing and sharing the motivations and passions of so many remarkable people!

Putting these episodes together has been a privilege. Sharing them with you continues to be a joy.

This episode was recorded in January 2023 from the Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis Minnesota, as part of the Great Northern Festival. It was a cold well below freezing day outside. As the Saunapreneurs began firing up their sauna stoves outside, inside we were able to sit down and visit with Shaelyn and her brother Justus, and then David Dragseth, CEO of Superior Saunas.

The history and brain child of a Sauna Village in Minneapolis goes back quite a few years. Subject for another podcast for another day, but in summary, the serendipity meeting of minds of Rod & JP from Stokeyard Outfitters, connecting with Eddie through commercial development, sharing the sauna heat with his wife Kate Nordstrom, the Executive and Artistic director of The Great Northern.

During this episode, we learn about the idea, creation, and build of the Superior Sauna by the brother and sister team of Shaelyn and Justus Crutchery. Like so many sauna builds, this one was more than just a sauna build, it also fostered as a rebuilding of a special brother sister bond.

The sauna was sponsored by David Dragseth, former Lutheran paster and now Superior Sauna CEO.

I'll keep this introduction short, and I encourage you to check out the photos of the Superior Sauna event sauna here on SaunaTimes. Three wood stoves, a swing, some great design with clear consciousness towards to the holy trinity of good sauna: heat, steam, ventilation.

Have you ever met somebody and wonder how they can accomplish so many ambitious projects? Well this is Tea Lindberg, founder and owner of Time for Tea Catering, as well as Saunat, a sauna rental and hosting business, where she manages 12 different sauna properties. If all this isn’t enough, Tea has two small children who stay with her as she manages phone reservations and catering inquires, while putting together an awesome wholesome lunch for me and Samuli, from Iki sauna stoves.

We take a tour of Tea’s latest project, where she bought an old farmhouse by the shore of the Baltic Sea on the outskirts of Helsinki Finland. More here.

She is ambitiously turning back the property into its original design, from the 1800s.

Let’s take an audio tour of Villa Furuvik. Paradise by the Sea.

“When a Finnish person says, it stays.”

Finnish people are trustable.

Home economics teacher.

A huge thank you to Samuli from Iki stoves for arranging and escorting me to Villa Furuvik, and introducing me to Lea Lindberg, and Annie.

Annie is the General Manager. We are seated on the sauna bench with Annie, who cold plunges and winter swims for 10 minutes before sauna “because she doesn’t want to have the cold stay in her core.”

Sauna is a sacred place. We are taught to be quiet and peaceful in sauna.

“I hear the sounds of Nature. I don’t need music any more for that.”

For Finns it’s almost easier to be silent than it is to talk.

One needs to spend time alone, because we are so often with people. When we are alone it is a time to remember who we are.

Today we welcome back Dr. Charles Raison to this Sauna Talk podcast part 2.

I encourage you to check in with Part one, where Chuck and i work from the starting block about Sauna health benefits and research surrounding hypethermia and hot/cold contrast therapy.

In this episode, by design we go deeper.

We unpack hot cold therapy as a novel treatment for mental health.

101.3

101.3 isn’t just the radio frequency for a hit music station in the Twin Cities. We have foundational research surrounding the effects on the body and the mind of achieving this core body temperature. Ashley Mason’s work at University of California San Francisco is expanding upon the psychological and physiological effects of this level of heat stress when reaching this core body temperature. Physically, from, for example the standpoint of blood pressure and heart rate variability. Yet how do these physical changes affect people’s moods? Specifically, as a possible novel treatment in the area of depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues.

Totonu

The Japanese have a word for that nirvana feeling we get after a few sauna rounds and cold therapy action. They call it Totonu. And there is actually a published study on the neuro effects of sauna bathing. We link to this study on the Sauna Research Institute website as well as on SaunaTimes websites. In the study, it is recognized that sauna is an activity that promotes relaxation and health. Three cycles of sauna, cold, rest lowers your heart rate and makes you feel more relaxed. Intense feelings of happiness have been reported shortly after enjoying a hot sauna and cold water, what is known in Japan as the “totonou” state.

With this contrast therapy, we achieve a lower heart rate, changes of brain waves, and better metabolic health through the increase in brown fat production – known as “the good fat”. And one could argue that, for those horizontally challenged, sauna use raises heart rate to about the state we achieve with a fast walk. So there is a weight loss association to regular sauna use. But this is not something i’d get the scale out to rely upon.

The Vail Project – Eagle Valley

We discuss a “Top Flight Sauna” for Vail Health’s Behavioral Health Innovation Center. Right now in development, the CHILL’D Study (“Cold and Heat Investigation to Lower Levels of Depression”) will explore ways to optimize the proven benefits of hyperthermia for depression, including whether adding cold to heat will improve outcomes and whether hyperthermia can be effectively combined with standard antidepressants.  

Vail Health is especially interested in thermic bathing within ancient practices. Many of us listening enjoy Nordic style sauna, where we pay homage to the origins of the word sauna (Finland). And sometimes many spend a lot of effort scolding its improper pronunciation. Yet, for those of us that share and know that good feeling, the definition of sauna is arguably much more important than its pronunciation. And for that matter, the definition of sauna is universal and straightforward:

Sauna Definition: A room, often lined with wood, with a heat source that heats rocks to sufficient temperature to create steam when water is tossed on rocks.

So, for example, Temascal, Native American Sweat Lodge, Banya and venik treatments, are all ancient sauna sweat bathing practices.

Chris Lindley is Chief Population Health Officer, Vail Health and the Executive Director, Eagle Valley Behavioral HealthExecutive Director at Eagle Valley Behavioral Health. I will save his bio for what I hope to be a dedicated podcast interview with Chris. But a quick note: Chris’s education and passion revolve around improving the population’s health, emergency response, and wellness. Chris is a decorated combat veteran, receiving a Bronze Star and Presidential Citation while leading troops in Iraq in 2005.

The convergence of the Sauna Research Institute, Vail Health, and the work happening with Charles through Ashley in San Francisco, Chris and team at Vail Health, as well as at Harvard are exciting examples for all of us, that right now, what we all know to be true is being studied and researched.

Sauna is good for us!

Soon, as we continue to unpack and understand how.. and why.. and how much.. I will say, I hope you enjoy my visit with Dr. Charles Raison.. and Sauna on!

Today from many of the 12 or so sauna benches, we hear from guests attending Sauna Days 2023 at Larsmont Cottages, Two Harbors, Minnesota.

The stories are from their hearts. We get to tap into their motivations and ambitions to make their way to Northern Minnesota for the third Sauna Days festival this early chilly May weekend. Though upwards of 200 people were in attendance, we hear from a fraction of the attendees. Most were on other benches or experiencing the world’s largest cold plunge in Lake Superior. Yet with the voices on this episode, you’ll be able to get an on the spot perspective of what Sauna Days is all about.

I’ll take a moment to set the scene. Larsmont Cottage is an upscale resort along the shores of Lake Superior, along the rocky North Shore North of Duluth Minnesota, and South of Canada.

If you’re looking for peace and tranquility or a launch pad for North Shore adventures but not your typical hotel — our cottages on Lake Superior are a place to celebrate the immense beauty and scale of our planet’s greatest lake. Tucked away in 40 acres of private woods south of Two Harbors, this location combines a Northwoods experience with 1,300 feet of beachfront shoreline.

– Larsmont Cottages.com

So, imagine a Larsmont Cottages sauna take over, and you’ve got a picture of Sauna Days.

I’ll keep this introduction nice and short, and will leave you with this final thought of consideration. Does sauna bring out the best in people or does sauna bring out the best people. Maybe it’s a lot of both. But whatever the case, judging from the smiles, laughter, and community spirit, Sauna Days was a joyful experience.

At checkout on Sunday, many were signing up for Sauna Days 2024. I caught more than a few guests walking the grounds, sizing up their favorite lakeside cottage to commit back to the front desk. Hope you enjoy this episode, and I hope to see you at Sauna Days 2024.

For more on Sauna Days 2023, please check the review here.