Pulling The Thread with Elise Loehnen (Elise Loehnen)

“You cannot differentiate when you never fight. Fighting is also a tool for differentiation, for having two people be able to breed and grow inside a relationship. If all you try to do is avoid any friction, any conflict, and merge into one, then there is a relationship of two halves, not of two holes, basically, to put it in simple terms. So some people find it very scary. Some people find it scary because there was uncontrolled fighting where they came from. And nobody could disagree without the whole thing going on fire. So there is good reasons for why people have learned not to fight or not to stand up for themselves or not to argue or not to say no, for some people simply saying no is experienced as a declaration of war. It's a continuum for those who are avoiding fighting and who are scared of it and reluctant to engage with it are basically said to themselves, I will never be like that person, my mother, my father, my grandparents, whoever it was, and then hold it in and hold it in.” Esther Perel’s voice doesn’t need an introduction—nor does her work. Esther is inarguably one of the most important therapists working today, pioneering a much deeper understanding of how couples function—and ultimately how couples can thrive. While Esther has written multiple bestselling books, Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence and The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity, and made an excellent intimacy-creating conversation card deck that will liven up any dinner party, I am most smitten with her podcast, “Where Should We Begin?” which brings listeners into real therapy sessions with real people—people, I’ll caveat, who are not her ongoing clients. Not only do you get to hear Esther’s brain work, but you get to listen as couples engage in arguments and issues that will likely feel…familiar, meaning that the show is an antidote to feeling slightly less alone in the world. Esther’s newest project is something that we all need, in every sphere of our lives: She is teaching a one-hour masterclass in conflict, including what’s beneath the content that we fight about everyday. Hint: Our fights are not actually about the dishes, they’re about power, control, respect, and foundational questions like: Do I matter? Do you value me? Conflict is the substance of today’s conversation, which we’ll turn to now. You can find the course on turning conflict into connection on Esther Perel’s website, or in the show notes. Here’s Esther. MORE FROM ESTHER PEREL: Turning Conflict into Connection Course Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity Where Should We Begin Podcast Where Should We Begin Conversation Cards Esther Perel’s Website Follow Esther on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"Part of what happens when human beings experience difficulty is the same difficulty, the same fact pattern, can resonate very differently for different human beings. And so, part of what happens when a human being encounters a challenge is not just, Oh, you hurt me, but it's how do I make meaning of the fact that you hurt me. Is it that there's something wrong with you? Is it that there's something wrong with me? Is it we should never have been involved in the first place? Is it that I need to fight and stand up for myself so that never happens again? Is it I need to make myself really small so that never happens again? So type is about how I made meaning of a challenge that happened to me early in life and because of the way I made meaning of it, that's how my adaptive strategies arose." Welcome to the first part of a four-episode special on metaphysical systems. These episodes don’t build on each other, per se—you can cherry pick what’s interesting to you—but they all go together. In this first set of systems, we’ll explore the Enneagram, Asterian Astrology, Human Design, and Tarot. Today, we’re kicking it off with Enneagram, specifically as interpreted by my dear friend, Courtney Smith, who is, quite frankly, one of the smartest people I know.  I heard Courtney might be one of my soulmates for years before we finally met—not only because we have the same taste in people (we have many dear mutual friends), but also because she’s an Enneagram genius, and the sort of person who is happy to talk about G.I. Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way at a cocktail party. Courtney has a robust coaching practice—individuals, executive teams, women’s groups—where she integrates the Enneagram, which she studies under Russ Hudson, along with trainings from the Conscious Leadership Group, the Alexander Technique, and the Work of Byron Katie. She also adds her own perception and raging intelligence. Courtney is brilliant, particularly at assessing systems on both the micro and macro level, and she’s also exceptionally warm, excavating all of our human foibles and patterns for the treasures of promised growth. My favorite part of Courtney though is that she plays against type: I love finding the mystical and metaphysical in a woman who has a degree in mathematical economics from Wake Forest, a masters in Public Health from New York University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School. Courtney also worked as a consultant at McKinsey & Co. Okay, let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM COURTNEY SMITH: Courtney Smith’s Website Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul” ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“The more we let go of, the more we receive. I feel that I live in that light. I believe that consciously. I'm not trying to control what the universe brings to me. I believe it knows exactly what's right for me. I'm an astrologer, so I believe in the cosmos. I believe it's a conscious, not an unconscious entity, which I believe a lot of new age thinking is treating the universe like it's unconscious and doesn't really know what it's doing. I think we're still dealing with fear then. We're still collectively, I want to control things because I'm afraid of what's going on. So I view a lot of new age beliefs as being clout in that fear.”  This is the second part in our special series on Mystical Systems—last Monday, we heard from Courtney Smith on the Enneagram. Next week, we’ll learn about Tarot and Kabbalah, and the following week about Human Design. That voice you just heard is Jade Luna, who studies what he calls Asterian Astrology—he claims to be the first Westerner to reconstruct Hindu astrology into a Greco-Roman format. As you’ll hear, there are parts of the system that are familiar, and others that are wholly different—though his readings will align with what you might have heard in the past…and then some. My reading with Jade was quite wild and very specific, down to health tendencies and the structure of my brain. Our conversation today goes way beyond astrology though: Jade and I talk about our fear of darkness, why waking up from what can sometimes feel like a collective nightmare is part of the point, and the confluence of seeds that have been planted in the past that are pushing us toward responsibility. We even get into global warming and predestiny. It’s a fascinating one.  Just wanted to note that Jade and I recorded this episode at the end of August, during the Los Angeles Hurricane, and before the Israel / Hamas war. MORE FROM JADE LUNA: Follow Jade on Instagram Jade’s Website Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1, ENNEAGRAM: Courtney Smith “The Practical Magic of the Enneagram” ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul” ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“One of the things that we do on Yom Kippur is we read the story of Jonah, the prophet who ran away saying, no, no, I don't want to do this job, find somebody else to do it. And I connect this to the card, the king of cups, because in the distance behind the king, you can see the seas are in the middle of a storm and there's a storm tossed ship. And there's also a great fish that has come out of the sea which reminds me of the whale that swallows Jonah, or as they say in the Bible, a great fish, and then you see the king who is on a platform in the middle of this roiling sea, and he is like a surfer. He is not being tossed and turned. He knows how to ride the wave. And I talk about the way in which we run from our destiny or what we think is our destiny, what we're afraid of in the future. We see storms coming and we try and run from them when really what we need is the knowledge to surf them and how to learn how to use the energy of the challenges in our lives to move us forward rather than to crash us into the sand.” This is the third part in our special series on Mystical Systems—last Monday, we heard from Asterian astrologist Jade Luna, and the Monday before we heard from Courtney Smith on the Enneagram. Next week, we’ll learn about Human Design. That voice you just heard is Mark Horn, who jokes that he might be the only person who has taught at both the Jewish Theological Seminary and the Readers Studio International Tarot Conference. Yep, that’s right: Mark Horn is an Kabbalah academic who also reads Tarot—though the most remarkable point about this combination is that the two actually go together, and are indelibly linked throughout time. In Tarot readings with Mark—full disclosure, I’ve had two—you settle on a specific question, and he does your hand through the Sephirot, which is the Kabbalistic symbol for the Tree of Life. These readings are fascinating, not only for their ability to respond to the question, but also because Mark decodes the cards through stories from the Kabbalah, making it an entirely different, wholly mystical experience. Okay, lets get to our conversation. MORE FROM MARK HORN: Tarot and the Gates of Light: A Kabbalistic Path to Enlightenment Mark Horn’s Website Follow Mark on Instagram Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1, ENNEAGRAM: Courtney Smith “The Practical Magic of the Enneagram” PART 2, ASTERIAN ASTROLOGY: Jade Luna “The Secret Astrological System” ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul” ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chetan: “The human design chart, is basically a match to your unique particular frequency, whether it's partially ancestral, whether it's partly what you've come to live out consciously in this lifetime. But it's there. It's all on a page. It's all on a chart. And you start recognizing how this chart works and you start going along with your type and your authority and you recognize your profile and who you naturally attract and get along with so easily and how other people see you. And all these things just can't start getting more and more distilled in your life. Describing it as a karma chart, things that have to be resolved, you start living true to your design, then all of these things just go click, click, click. Carola: You start attracting the situations or the people the opportunities to resolve those things. Chetan: And you're not in resistance. You're in acceptance to life.”  Human Design has a wild origin story—and so does Chetan Parkyn, who studied with Osho in India and read palms and faces before coming to Human Design, which he’s been working with for three decades. His partner, Carola Eastwood, came to Human Design through Astrology and counseling after her own dark night of the soul. The duo are steeped in the system, having performed thousands of readings and written multiple books, including Human Design: Discover the Person You Were Born to Be, The Book of Lines, and The Book of Destinies. If you’re new to Human Design, it’s a fascinating and complex system—I’d recommend going to their site, Evolutionary Human Design and quickly generating a free chart. You’ll need your birth date and time. If you’re familiar, these two will turn new pages for you.  MORE FROM CHETAN & CAROLA: Human Design: Discover the Person You Were Born to Be The Book of Lines The Book of Destinies: Discover the Life You Were Born to Live Evolutionary Human Design Get Your Human Design Report Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1, ENNEAGRAM: Courtney Smith “The Practical Magic of the Enneagram” PART 2, ASTERIAN ASTROLOGY: Jade Luna “The Secret Astrological System” PART 3, TAROT + KABBALAH: Mark Horn “The Mystical Roots of Tarot” ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul” ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Starting next Monday, I’m doing another special series—this set is about addiction. You’ll hear from four distinct voices in the space, covering harm reduction, new paths to recovery, codependency, and the shape of addiction in our culture. This is just scratching the surface, but hopefully the beginning of conversations in our own lives, as addiction touches us all, in its myriad forms. While this set is focused on substance, we'll be back with more in this space—and if you want to get started, you’ll find links to two previous episodes on this theme. Dr. Gabor Maté, who spent much of his career working in the most addicted corner of North America, explains why trauma is central to understanding addiction, and Dr. Anna Lembke, explores the role of dopamine and the delicate balance between pleasure and pain. You can find those links in the show notes—and I’ll see you on Thursday for a regular episode of Pulling the Thread, and Monday for the beginning of this special episode. SHOW NOTES: ADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., “Navigating an Addictive Culture” TRAUMA: Gabor Maté, M.D., “When Stress Becomes Illness” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“For years, I was asking myself whether or not I was an alcoholic versus really asking myself whether or not alcohol was actually providing any benefit to me. And for me, it was just like, This realization when I stopped drinking that I had been asking the wrong question for my whole drinking career and like, why are we not asking the question? We're just like, we're drinking, it's compulsory in our society. It's exceptional if you don't drink. And then it's also this very addictive drug that's marketed to us in a way that totally overrides our ability to like make rational choices around it. It's like the most socially accepted drug that you can use and like, we just don't have meaningful conversations or informed consent or any, you know, so for me, a huge part of me quitting drinking, which I did in 2013, it was this realization of Intellectually understanding I had been asking the wrong question which for me was a huge empowerment and part of the reason I was able to quit.” So says Holly Whitaker, author of the New York Times bestselling Quit Like a Woman: The Radical Choice to Not Drink in a Culture Obsessed with Alcohol. I had heard about Holly long before I met her, primarily because she was disrupting recovery culture and many people did not like this. But the more I learned about her, the more I spoke to her, the more I witnessed her impact on culture, the more I was completely taken by both her brilliance and her willingness to say the things. Be warned: If you read her book, you’ll never think about alcohol again. In its pages, she recontextualizes the way we’ve been trained to normalize booze—and also the way the current recovery scene is shaped for the consciousness, and egos, of men. She’s created companies in the vein of a feminine-centered recovery, and it feels like she’s just getting started in the way we talk about addictive substances—and addiction. Those who struggle will find a lot of relief in her words, and I understand why.  MORE FROM HOLLY WHITAKER: Quit Like a Woman: The Radical Choice to Not Drink in a Culture Obsessed with Alcohol Holly’s Newsletter Holly’s Website Holly’s Podcast Follow Holly on Instagram Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: ADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., “Navigating an Addictive Culture” TRAUMA: Gabor Maté, M.D., “When Stress Becomes Illness” BINGE EATING DISORDER: Susan Burton, “Whose Pain Counts?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I want to say that it's not just some idea about suffering, it's also a function of social and economic systems that are deliberately weaponizing an individualized view of suffering as a technique, as a strategy. I found across eras and eras and eras in the book is that addiction supply industries, which is what one scholar calls them, like the alcohol industry, the tobacco industry, they constantly come back to this hyper individualization in saying, you know, like, the problem is not in the bottle, the problems in the person. If so many people can drink, quote unquote normally, that means the problem is really with these sick people over here. And that happened with tobacco. And then very directly and deliberately, things like the processed food industry and other modern addiction supply industries have used the same language.” So says Carl Erik Fisher, an addiction psychiatrist, bioethics scholar, author, and person in recovery. Carl is also an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University, where he teaches law, ethics, and policy relating to psychiatry and neuroscience, particularly where they converge with substance use disorders and other addictive behaviors. He hosts a podcast called Flourishing After Addiction and is launching a Substack, where he’ll organize his thinking around treatment paths and modalities. Most pertinent to our conversation today, he’s the author of The Urge: Our History of Addiction, which is a fascinating deep dive into our long cultural fascination with addictive substances, interlaced with his own story, and stories from his practice: In fact, the book opens in Bellevue where Carl is not functioning as a doctor—in this case, he’s the patient, after suffering an addiction-induced manic episode that put him into recovery. Carl is brilliant and kind, and also fluent in all the prevailing science about addictive behavior…science that hasn’t really ruled the day until recent years. Instead, the addiction space has been one of binaries—you’re compulsive, or you exercise choice; you’re normal, or an addict; you have no control to stop, or you have all the control and refuse to use it; and on and on and on. MORE FROM CARL ERIK FISHER: The Urge: Our History of Addiction Carl’s Podcast: Flourishing After Addiction Carl’s Website Follow Carl on Instagram Carl’s Newsletter Carl’s Substack Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1: Holly Whitaker, “Reimagining Recovery” ADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., “Navigating an Addictive Culture” TRAUMA: Gabor Maté, M.D., “When Stress Becomes Illness” BINGE EATING DISORDER: Susan Burton, “Whose Pain Counts?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think it's really important for, you know, people to realize that you can totally be an absolutely excellent parent of a traumatized child and the trauma had nothing to do with you and you couldn't possibly have prevented it. So I think, you know, assuming that there is trauma in somebody's addiction history, which is not always the case, but if there is, you should not immediately assume that it was bad parenting because sure, that could be the case sometimes, but again, there's so many different ways that people can be traumatized by so many different people. And it's also the case that so much of addiction has to do with people's temperament that will set them up for things. So, if you are incredibly sensitive to stimuli, something that wouldn't traumatize someone else might traumatize you. And again, that's not your parents fault. That's just how you were born.” So says Maia Szalavitz, a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and author of two fantastic books about addiction. Her New York Times bestseller, Unbroken Brain, tells the story of her own heroin and cocaine addiction as a student at Columbia University in the ‘80s—she was expelled for dealing and barely escaped prison time—woven together with the decades of work she’s done as a journalist in the addiction space after entering recovery in her early ‘20s. In it, Maia offers a compelling case for why addiction should be thought of as a learning disability, in part because so many people “grow out of it.”  Maia’s latest book—Undoing Drugs: The Untold Story of Harm Reduction and the Future of Addiction—taught me so much and challenged so many of the stories about addiction I was holding onto. Ultimately, it’s an optimistic book in the face of what feels like an overwhelming cultural challenge, a challenge that only seems to get worse every month—Maia explains why we’re trending in this direction, and more importantly, what we can do to shift our collective fate toward recovery. And what an expanded idea of recovery might mean.  MORE FROM MAIA SZALAVITZ: Undoing Drugs: How Harm Reduction is Changing the Future of Drugs and Addiction Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary Way of Understanding Addiction The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog Read Maia on The New York Times Maia’s Website Follow Maia on X Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1: Holly Whitaker, “Reimagining Recovery” PART 2: Carl Erik Fisher, M.D., “Breaking the Addiction Binary” ADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., “Navigating an Addictive Culture” TRAUMA: Gabor Maté, M.D., “When Stress Becomes Illness” BINGE EATING DISORDER: Susan Burton, “Whose Pain Counts?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Nobody wants to be somebody with a serious substance use problem. Nobody wants to be addicted to a substance. I mean, it doesn't feel good. Dependency doesn't feel good. And we end up in there anyway, right? So I think if we can bring compassion and understanding to, wow, it must really be working in a way that's really powerful for them to keep pursuing it. And then you've got the physical effects of substances, right? So then our bodies physically get dependent, you know, so it starts out as like, it's probably working for an emotional or something in our life and then we become physically dependent on it. And then it's a whole nother host of things in terms of how do you stop it? And people don't fully understand treatment in terms of there's medications available.” So says Carrie Wilkens, PhD, a psychologist who is attempting to change the way we think about and address recovery and treatment—specifically by simply presenting evidence for what motivates change. AFter all, she is the co-president and CEO of CMC: Foundation for Change, a not-for-profit with the mission of improving the dissemination of evidence-based ideas and strategies to professionals and loved ones of persons struggling with substance use.  As you’ll hear in this conversation—and throughout the entire series—we have not collectively been served by the mono-myth of addiction, that it’s only solved through harsh intervention and confrontation, that addicted people must hit rock-bottom, and that any involvement from concerned family and friends is inherently co-dependent or enabling. As Dr. Wilkins explains, this simply isn’t true: In fact, evidence overwhelmingly suggests that harsh confrontation and intervention works AGAINST recovery, and that there is a very specific and meaningful role for family to play in what can often feel like a family illness. The CMC:FFC team’s Invitation to Change approach is an accessible set of understandings and practices that empower families to remain engaged and be effective in helping their struggling loved one make positive changes. The approach has been widely used across the country and is utilized in trainings with laypeople and professionals.  She is co-author of the award-winning book Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change, a practical guide for families dealing with addiction and substance problems in a loved one based on principles of Community Reinforcement and Family Training (CRAFT), and co-author of The Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family and Friends: Evidence-Based Skills to Help a Loved-One Make Positive Change. Dr. Wilkens is also the Co-Founder and Clinical Director of the Center for Motivation and Change, a group of clinicians serving all ages in NYC, Long Island, Washington, DC, San Diego, CA, and CMC:Berkshires, a private, inpatient/residential program for adults. Dr. Wilkens has been a Project Director on a large federally-funded Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) grant addressing the problems associated with binge drinking among college students. And she is a member of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies and the American Association of Addiction Psychiatrists. MORE FROM CARRIE WILKINS: Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change The Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family & Friends CMC: Foundation for Change Further Listening on Pulling the Thread: PART 1: Holly Whitaker, “Reimagining Recovery” PART 2: Carl Erik Fisher, M.D., “Breaking the Addiction Binary” PART 3: Maia Szalavitz, “When Abstinence-Only Approaches Fail” ADDICTION: Anna Lembke, M.D., “Navigating an Addictive Culture” TRAUMA: Gabor Maté, M.D., “When Stress Becomes Illness” BINGE EATING DISORDER: Susan Burton, “Whose Pain Counts?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think that with regulation, the funny thing is that it's either I want to control the weather around my children, or I want to control my children, but regulation is very much a self thing for adults and a co regulation thing between you and other, especially you and a young person whose brain isn't fully able to self regulate. But if you're so focused on controlling all these outside things that you can't, like the weather, then you get to let yourself off the hook of getting into the much harder, but more possible work of self regulation and of figuring out your own stuff. And all of that has much bigger benefits to your kids, of course, than making the weather perfect around them, but it just is harder. Even though it shouldn't be so easy to change the weather, but it does appear that is what happens, right?”  So says Aliza Pressman, development psychologist and Assistant Clinical Professor in the Division of Behavioral Health Department of Pediatrics at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital where she is co-founding director of The Mount Sinai Parenting Center. Aliza is also the host of the hit podcast, Raising Good Humans, and the author of The Five Principles of Parenting: Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. I love Aliza for many reasons: Yes, we all want friends who are developmental psychologists on speed-dial, but she’s also different in the way she delivers advice. For one, she cuts right to the point, reminding and reaffirming that while yes, every family has its own complicating factors, the basic tenets of raising good humans are simple. You don’t need your own PhD in parenting to do the job, nor do you need a PhD to re-parent yourself, you need to focus on the elements she outlines in The Five Principles of Parenting: Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans: Relationship, Reflection, Regulation, Rules, and Repair. As she explains, through practice and normalizing imperfection, along the way you’ll discover the person you’re ultimately raising is yourself. By becoming more intentional people, we become better parents. By becoming better parents, we become better people. In today’s conversation, we touch on these tenets while also exploring the particular social world we find ourselves in, one in which there seems to be an expectation that we can and should control the weather for our kids.  MORE FROM ALIZA PRESSMAN, PhD: The Five Principles of Parenting: Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans Raising Good Humans Podcast Aliza’s Website Follow Aliza on Instagram Aliza’s Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“The deal is your bodies are going to change over time and people can stay attracted to somebody's body over time, even though it is unrecognizable from what it was like when they first met because that body is the home of a human they adore our attraction to a person's body can be just like superficial something like your toenails are gross, or it can be here is the human whose life I have shared in our home for all these years and like their belly and their bum and their varicose veins and their scar from the surgery that saved their life all of it is so fucking hot because this is my person.” So says Emily Nagoski, one of the most exceptional minds at work today on the science—and she would add, art—of sexual connection, intimacy, and arousal. Emily is brilliant and she’s also deeply human, using her own experiences in the world as the foundational ground for exploring relationship: This means that she’s not full of heady theory and diagnoses, but focused on what actually works to fuel desire—and bring it to fruition. She’s the author of the mega bestselling Come as You Are, as well as a book called Burnout about the stress cycle that she co-authored with her twin sister, and now she brings us Come Together: The Science (and Art!) of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections, which is the natural evolution. While Come as You Are is a primer on how we all function as sexual creatures, Come Together explores what happens when you bring that into relationship—and try to establish and maintain a connection that can endure through seasons of, well, low interest.  She is full of ideas, principles, and methods for getting it going—including a core blueprint for determining what rooms are adjacent to your desire. I loved this book, I love Emily, and I loved our conversation. MORE FROM THE EMILY NAGOSKI: Come Together: The Science (and Art!) of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life Watch Emily’s TED Talk Emily’s Website Follow Emily on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For December’s solo episode, I looked at the etymology of the word resolutions. What I found might surprise you. And instead of thinking about what I want to be or do next year, it got me thinking about what I want to let go of. And how I can recognize when I’m making things more complicated than they need to be (I love complexity and depth but can sometimes get carried away). I also get into a few other things that are on my mind right now, including: journal speaking, how we sometimes conflate altruism with transaction, the MAHA movement, and ways I can be softer on people while being harder on systems. Last, some news about two of my most fulfilling collaborations, which are both coming out in workbook form in 2025: True and False Magic (with Phil Stutz) and Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (with Courtney Smith). For the show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Here's what I would say: peace will happen when people invest in cultivating peace as opposed to war. Peace will happen. And one thing I know, for me, I know peace, I know I will never see it, but maybe I can put something in place to where I leave something here and my children's, children's, children's grandchildren can nibble off of and feed on what I've left here the same way I feed off of Frederick Douglass's stuff.” So says therapist and social worker Resmaa Menakem, author of the New York Times bestseller My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending our Hearts and Bodies and originator of the Somatic Abolitionist movement. I met Resmaa many years ago, when he was one of the few voices in this space—Resmaa calls himself a communal provocateur and this is true, as his work challenges all of us to recognize and acknowledge that we’re scared. And that much of this fear is ancient. We were supposed to talk today about trauma in relationships, but our time together took a different turn—Resmaa jumped at the opportunity to put me in my familial and familiar fear. It’s hard, or at least it was for me, but hopefully you’ll stick with us to see how this works. This is the third part of a series on trauma, and it won’t surprise you to hear that Resmaa also trained with Peter Levine. MORE FROM RESMAA MENAKEM: My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending our Hearts and Bodies Monsters in Love: Why Your Partner Sometimes Drives You Crazy—And What You Can Do About It The Quaking of America: An Embodied Guide to Navigating Our Nation’s Upheaval and Racial Reckoning Resmaa’s Website Follow Resmaa on Instagram RELATED EPISODES: PART 1: James Gordon, M.D., “A Toolkit for Working with Trauma” PART 2: Peter Levine, Ph.D, “Where Trauma Lives in the Body” Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence” Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness” Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance” Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past” Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yes, it’s a Monday and not a Thursday, but today, I’m announcing something special. Kicking off next week, we’re going to host occasional, short series that are focused on a tangly or complicated theme—big concepts that require multiple voices and perspectives to put them into proper context. We’re kicking off next Monday with a look at Mystical Systems, or you could call them Personality Systems: Enneagram, Astrology, Tarot, and Human Design. Some people might think of these ways of understanding the world as silly, while others will stake their lives—and sometimes every big decision—on them. I’m somewhere in between: I think there’s nothing more powerful than hearing about yourself, and how your life likely unfolded, from someone who knows nothing more about you than your birth sign. To me, it signals that there’s a much deeper plan at play. I’ll see you next week, meanwhile you can get started with the two episodes below. ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul” ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Now the tragedy, in one sense is a tragedy, that often people only become open when they've suffered horribly when that is both the tragedy of trauma, but also the promise. It's one thing to be trauma informed. It's another thing to inform our experience of trauma with some kind of courage and some kind of hopefulness for profound change. That's what's got to happen. If that can happen, then maybe out of all this contentiousness that is present in our 21st century United States, maybe something really good can happen, but we've got to pay attention, we've got to act on it, and take responsibility.” So says Dr. James Gordon, a Harvard-educated psychiatrist, former researcher at the National Institute of Mental Health and Chairman of the White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, and a clinical professor of psychiatry and family medicine at Georgetown Medical School. He’s also the founder and executive director of The Center for Mind-Body Medicine and a prolific writer on trauma. This is because he’s spent the last several decades traveling the globe and healing population-wide psychological trauma. He and 130 international faculty have brought this program to populations as diverse as refugees from wars in the Balkans, the Middle East, and Africa; firefighters and U.S. military personnel and their families; student/parent/teacher school shooting survivors; and more. I met Jim many years ago, and he’s become a constant resource for me in my own life and work, particularly because he packages so many of the exercises that work in global groups into his book Transforming Trauma: The Path to Hope and Healing. We talk about some of those exercises today—soft belly breathing, shaking and dancing, drawing—along with why it’s so important to address and complete the trauma cycle in areas of crisis. This is the first part of a four-part series, and James does an excellent job of setting the stage. MORE FROM JAMES GORDON, M.D.: Transforming Trauma: The Path to Hope and Healing The Center for Mind-Body Medicine Follow Jim on Instagram RELATED EPISODES: Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence” Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness” Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance” Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past” Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Diego Perez is widely known by his pen name, Yung Pueblo. He’s a #1 New York Times bestselling author, and his latest book is How to Love Better. Today, we both share a bit about our own relationships, and what we’ve learned from our partners. We talk about the myths and archetypal relationships that are served to us, and how many of us have been conditioned to go into a relationship looking for someone to solve all our problems. We talk about more realistic ways to create harmony in a relationship, and how to avoid the trap of assuming your partner can read your mind. For the show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“We sort of get into this, you know, relational model. And look, when it's working, when sex is a form of intimacy and merging and lovemaking and a really dissolution of self boundaries, I mean, it's fantastic. It's such a relationship boost and expression of love that only sex can provide. But very often, you know, relational sex can become really rote. It can become really predictable. It can stop serving our need for kind of sexual expansiveness, which is what recreational sex can do, right? Embracing the aspects of sex, embracing variety, embracing that psychological stimuli. Right? I think that's where, especially for heterosexual couples, we don't know how to integrate the relational with the recreational…,” so says Dr. Ian Kerner, my guest today and a licensed psychotherapist and nationally recognized sexuality counselor who specializes in sex therapy, couples therapy and relational issues. Ian is a New York Times best selling author of She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman and the co-founder and co-director of the Sex Therapy program at the Institute for Contemporary Psychology. Today we discuss his newest book, So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex: Laying Bare and Learning to Repair Our Love Lives as Ian shares the unique methodology he has used in his sex therapy practice to help countless couples rewrite their sex script in order to actualize their sexual potential. We don’t know how to talk about sex, Ian tells us, we have erotic minds but encounter shame around communicating what is in them, leaving us open to impersonal, predictable sex that stops serving our need for sexual expansiveness.  To avoid falling victim to the plague of rote sex, we must rediscover touch, desire, and fantasy, he tells us. By reimagining and rewriting our sex scripts to include both the physical and psychological components of arousal, the promised land of mutual pleasure is within reach. Ian gives us the tools to get comfortable with the discourse around intercourse, and leaves us with the stepping stones to bridge the gap between the sex we are having and the sex we want to be having.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Putting language around sex…(8:15) Integrating the importance of touch…(13:34) Fantasy, psychological arousal and the key to good sex…(25:07) The plague of ill-cliteracy...(40:57) MORE FROM IAN KERNER: So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex: Laying Bare and Learning to Repair Our Love Lives She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man Love in the Time of Colic: The New Parents' Guide to Getting It on Again Follow Ian on Twitter DIG DEEPER: Come as You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life - Emily Nagoski  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“But what I do do is whenever I read an academic paper is I read around it. I don't just take that as given or assume that that's, you know, now cast in stone and science has nowhere else to go after this paper has been written, but that it sits in a context of other research, um, and evolving. It's always evolving. It's moving towards the truth. It's sometimes very faltering, really the history of sex difference research and race difference research, I think is a really good example of how faltering it can be and how orthodoxies can get created and take a really long time to be corrected. Um, but if you understand it in that historical context, then I think it's easier to accept science for what it is, which is a journey towards truth, rather than assuming that it's already there,” so says Angela Saini, an independent British science journalist, author, and the founder of the ‘Challenging Pseudoscience’ group at the Royal Institution. Angela joins me today to talk about science as fact, and the nuance that comes when we introduce human bias to the equation through interpretation. While Angela originally found a home in the objective and rational field of engineering, she tells us it was her experience as a journalist that opened her eyes to the vested interests and motivations within the scientific community that influenced the research and answers being published and touted as fact.  Angela has since written two books interrogating the divisive politics embedded in the science of human difference, Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong-And the New Research That's Rewriting the Story and Superior: The Return of Race Science. Whether it is sex research or race research, certain long-tentacled orthodoxies get created, she tells us, permeating our culture and eliminating any nuance from the conversation. Angela’s work encourages us to dismantle these orthodoxies, which have for so long sat uncomfortably with our lived experiences, and instead, to think more critically about what we assume to be “the norm”. We get into the way our cultural training has impacted our natural genetic destiny, how easy it is to slip into essentialist ideas of what it means to be a woman, and how important it is to embrace intersectional arguments when we talk about equality. When we reflect on who we really are, not just who we have been told to be, she tells us, we open up all the possibilities there are for being human. OK, let's get to our conversation. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Interrogating the politics behind the science of human difference… Extricating culture from nature… There is no one way to be a woman… MORE FROM ANGELA SAINI: Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong-And the New Research That's Rewriting the Story Superior: The Return of Race Science Watch her 2019 BBC Documentary - Eugenics: Science's Greatest Scandal Angela's Website Follow Angela on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

That's what I think is so funny about this is like a hundred years on these things that he's talking about remain as live as ever as sort of as complex and as urgent as they were back in Vienna and literally a hundred years ago. So that it feels to me like he was really onto something. And I don't think that's true of every thinker of the 1920s or every psychoanalyst of the 1920s. He really, he really he's like heat-seeking missile. He has this ability to sort of put himself in the most contested zones, our emotional lives. Today we are joined by author Olivia Laing to discuss her new book, Everybody: A Book About Freedom, which explores the body as a mechanism for understanding the world around us through the story of radical psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich. A contemporary and friend of the famous Sigmund Freud, Reich believed that the body communicated things that his patients could not articulate. In many ways, he’s the often-overlooked father of trauma and somatic therapy. In Reich’s view, unexpressed reservoirs of emotion, if left unprocessed, led to the build up of a sort of muscular armor that patients carried with them for life. Though Reich’s later work, which featured increasingly eccentric ideas, has led to his erasure within the common psychoanalytic discourse, Laing reminds us that Reich’s belief in freedom from oppression and dominion over our bodies, and our lives, is just as prescient today as it was 100 years ago—and she challenges us to think about the stories of our own bodies within this larger cultural context. MORE FROM OLIVIA: Everybody: A Book About Freedom Funny Weather: Art in an Emergency Crudo The Lonely City: Adventures in the Art of Being Alone The Trip to Echo Springs: On Writers and Drinking Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think what makes it much more difficult to, to have the courage, to continue to experiment, you know, look at somebody like Joni Mitchell or Rickie Lee Jones, people that at their moment of peak success, commercially said, you know, I'm going to do jazz now, or I'm going to do instrumental now, or I'm going to do something else now. And you know, the word once again, you know, that changed the world. Even Dylan, when he went electric, you know, the world hates that, you know, we're supposed to be able to deliver an expectation that people are used to and feel comfortable with. And I think any type of huge success like that really sets you up to feel like you can't veer from that without either disrupting your level of success or disappointing people or outraging people, you know, the very things that thrill and delight and excite. Some people are the very things that outrage others. And once you start to have to gauge where you're going to sit in that continuum, you know, I think the original work is then pretty much obliterated,” so says Debbie Millman, author, educator, curator and host of one of the first, and longest running podcasts, Design Matters. Debbie is a creator to her core - she started her career at Sterling Brands, one of the world’s leading branding consultancies, and for twenty years led the company as President, working on the logo and brand identity for some of the world’s most prominent brands, from Burger King, Hershey’s, Haagen Dazs and Tropicana, to Star Wars and Gillette. Her writing and illustrations have been featured in publications such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, New York Magazine, Print Magazine, and Fast Company. She is the author of seven books, the co-owner and editorial director of PrintMag.com, and co-founded the world’s first graduate program in branding at the School of Visual Arts in New York City. Her podcast, which has been nominated for six Webby awards, has been highlighted on over 100 “Best Podcasts” lists and was designated by Apple as one of their “All Time Favorite Podcasts”, has spent the past 17 years interviewing nearly 500 of the most creative people in the world.  Today she joins me to discuss her most recent book, Why Design Matters: Conversations with the World’s Most Creative People. This book, Debbie tells us, was born of her desire to stoke her own creative fire in a time when she was working as a creative but feeling artistically dead. Debbie regales us with tales of the creative processes of the greats, including the inevitable failures, rejections, and obstacles that are part of any creative journey, showing us how they persevere to create beauty in the face of adversity. In our conversation, we discuss the danger of expectations, the courage it takes to create and questions around who gets to call themselves an artist. We talk about the stereotype of the pained artist, finding inspiration, and how she teaches her students to refine and create their original voice.  She leaves us with her thoughts about personal brands and the way in which they limit our identity and our ability to continually pursue the new or experimental.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Fear around the new…(10:15) Who gets to call themselves an artist?...(17:50) The courage in experimentation…(22:52) On personal brands…(43:00) MORE FROM DEBBIE MILLMAN: Why Design Matters: Conversations with the World's Most Creative People More Books by Debbie Millman Visit Debbie's Website Listen to Debbie’s Podcast, Design Matters on Apple Podcasts Follow Debbie on Twitter and Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"When I would witness somebody that I identify with in whatever capacity of what I'm calling in, have, what I want or are successful in what I would like to be successful in. Um, or, you know, they are on that path to what I'm shooting for. I really realize that that would actually be tremendously more effective for my subconscious to go, oh, if they could do that or if they are doing that, I can as well. So beyond all, all of the visualizing I did back in the day until I was blue in the face, this would speed things up and make it really rapid," says Lacy Phillips, my guest today - a global manifestation expert and speaker and founder of To Be Magnetic. Lacy presents a unique manifestation formula, rooted in basic psychology, neuroscience, and her energetic gifts. Lacy’s manifestation formula is not your typical "think positive" and "visualize" method, but rather, she is known for a much deeper and more therapeutic response that requires clearing subconscious blocks first—only then, can you begin to call in and work toward what you most desire. Lacy offers a comprehensive digital workshop program called The Pathway, along with an excellent podcast, EXPANDED. I highly recommend tuning in.  Today, she shares with us the secrets of her manifestation success, as we discuss everything from identifying our sticky subconscious beliefs to reading our nervous system and its readiness for change to how to respond to tests on the way to rediscovering our authentic, worthy self. Lacy tells us that seeing is believing when it comes to manifestation, and encourages us to search for ‘expanders’ - individuals, real or fictitious, who broaden our concept of reality. She challenges us to turn our envy towards those who have what we want, using them as proof positive, that what we want is not only possible, but achievable. Everyone is being offered a ticket on the manifestation train, she assures us, it is just a matter of whether we choose to get on.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: The three pieces of manifestation… Resolving our sticky subconscious beliefs… Finding your expanders… Aligned action and being tested… MORE FROM LACY PHILLIPS: To Be Magnetic - curated by Lacy Phillips Listen to Lacy’s podcast, EXPANDED, on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Follow To Be Magnetic on Instagram and Twitter Follow Lacy on Instagram  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think we're due for a cultural rebranding around crying. I think that crying, you know, if we start to cry, we inevitably apologize or invariably apologize. We sort of suck it back in and make it as small as it can be. Like the way someone would pinch back a sneeze, we’re like holding the tears back, making it smaller, collecting ourselves. And you know, if you know, somebody who's crying frequently or you're like, they're in a bad place. And I think that we really need to see crying as this deep wisdom from our body saying, you need a release right now, let's have of one. And when you get an opportunity to cry, dive into it and let it be big, let it be complete rather than smaller. Like let it be bigger.” So says Dr. Ellen Vora, a Columbia University-trained psychiatrist who takes a functional and holistic approach to mental health—namely, she treats the whole system, looking for where states like anxiety and depression might be rooted in the body, whether it’s less-than-ideal nutrition and an out-of-whack gut, or poor sleep and breathing. In her just-launched book—THE ANATOMY OF ANXIETY—she tackles this state that is ever-present for many of us. In fact, it’s easy to argue that if you aren’t feeling anxious, you aren’t really alive in this complex, difficult rollercoaster of time. But in Ellen’s model, she differentiates between true and false anxiety—both are very real and valid concerns. For false anxiety, typically there’s an imminently treatable physical root that can be addressed until the body comes back into balance and the mind calms. True anxiety, on the other hand, is an alarm clock that something is not right—that you’re out of alignment, or integrity, in some way. In today’s episode we talk about both, including the overwhelming load that we’re all carrying and how important it is to cry. We also explore psychedelics and what it means to really heal. OK, let’s get to our conversation. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: It’s not ‘all in your head’, it’s in your body… Building your sleep toolkit… Honoring real food cravings… The importance of finding release… MORE FROM ELLEN VORA: The Anatomy Of Anxiety: Understanding and Overcoming the Body's Fear Response Ellen's Website Follow Ellen on Instagram and check out her videos on YouTube and TikTok Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I increasingly feel that modern life is becoming intolerable for everyone, whether they're neurodivergent or not. I think we've noticed it earlier. I think, you know, we've reached our point of unbearable discomfort earlier along the line. But I just begin to think that the way we are living is generally hostile to our brains and our neurology. We are, all of us, completely overwhelmed all the time. And you know, like the idea that some people had a good pandemic, well that's because the world called a truce on some of us, and we didn't realize we needed it until that moment. I mean, I don't know what it's gonna take for us to all pull the break on this because it's not good. It's not good for us.” So says Katherine May, the New York Times bestselling author of Wintering, the book that spoke to so many of our souls when it came out a month before the pandemic: Katherine anticipated what all of us felt, which is that our way of living was not supportable, and that we needed retreat and rest. Katherine is a prophet for a number of reasons: Not only because she’s a stunningly beautiful writer and astute observer of the world, but also because she’s wired a little bit differently. Before she wrote WINTERING, Katherine wrote another book, a memoir called THE ELECTRICITY OF EVERY LIVING THING, about attempting to walk the 630 mile South West Coast Path in Britain before turning 40. But it’s not a book about a heroic feat, it’s actually about grappling with her late-in-life diagnosis as being on the autism spectrum disorder. Katherine always knew she was different, but she never knew exactly how or why, only that she found many parts of life overwhelming and chaotic. The book, which is stunning, explores the ways so many of us feel like we’re passing—picking up behaviors from other people in order to be accepted, or to fit in.  MORE FROM KATHERINE MAY: The Electricity of Every Living Thing Wintering The Best Most Awful Job Katherine May’s Website Follow Katherine on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"So if we take that off the table, if we take off this, this goal of changing somebody's mind, then what are you left with? What's what's your purpose in the conversation? And I feel like not only is that more attainable to have a conversation in which you are exchanging ideas, just exchanging ideas, changing information, that's attainable every time. But also it relieves some pressure, right? I mean, sometimes I feel like people see conversations as frustrating because they keep trying to do something that's impossible. Maybe it would be more enjoyable for you if you weren't trying to beat your head against the wall. I feel like that that paragraph from Carl Rogers is not just something that is useful to tell the other person. I think it's mostly for you. Like for you to tell yourself, I'm not here to change you. I'm just here to listen and understand." So says Celeste Headlee, award-winning radio journalist and author of many incredible books, including Do Nothing, We Need to Talk, and Speaking of Race. Celeste, a self-described “light-skinned Black Jew,” has been having hard conversations about race since she was a little kid. Already an astute observer of culture, she has notated throughout her life how unproductive these conversations tend to be, how we shut down and get defensive, or try to reinforce our own sense of righteousness. In today’s conversation, we explore the reasons we’ve become culturally calcified as well as antidotes for taking on tough and essential topics. In Celeste’s experience, the more reserved we become about leaning into potential conflict the more fear enters the equation: And right now, one of the worst labels you can hear is that you are racist. I loved DO NOTHING and I also loved Speaking of Race, because at its heart it is also just about the art of conversation--and active listening. And Celeste has a lot of experience: She is a regular guest host on NPR and American Public Media, and her Tedx Talk on having better conversations has been viewed over 23 million times. While I’ve got your attention on Celeste, you need to listen to her season with John Biewen on Scene on Radio: They did an incredible series of episodes about misogyny, and his season on race, called Seeing White, which he co-hosted with Chenjerai Kumanyika is incredible.  MORE FROM CELESTE HEADLEE: Speaking of Race Do Nothing We Need to Talk Celeste’s Website Follow Celeste on Instagram and Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You have to have something new to hope for sure. You might still keep hoping that somebody with a terminal illness might get better and indeed they do sometimes. Or you might hope as after 9/11, that somebody will be found who was in the trade towers when they fell down. And in fact, a few people were found in another country or in a psychiatric ward and not being able to remember who they were, but for the most part, you keep hoping and you move forward with life in a new way. Without that missing person, you must do both. You cannot just hope because that means you're immobilized, you're frozen in place and the children will suffer, the family will suffer, you will suffer from that. It has to be both/and.” So says, Dr. Pauline Boss, emeritus professor at University of Minnesota and world-renowned as a pioneer in the interdisciplinary study of family stress management as well as for her groundbreaking research on what is now known as the theory of ambiguous loss. Dr. Boss coined the term ambiguous loss in the 1970s to describe a very particular type of loss that defies resolution, blocks coping and meaning-making and freezes the process of grieving. With death, she says, there is official certification of loss, proof of the transformation from life to death, and support for mourners through community rituals and gatherings. In ambiguous loss, none of these markers exist, the lingering murkiness leaving individuals unnerved and stressed out.  In her forty years of clinical experience as a family therapist, Dr. Boss has worked with individuals, couples and families dealing with some kind of ambiguous loss - from families in New York who lost family members during 9/11 and are experiencing the physical kind of ambiguous loss, to those dealing with the psychological ambiguous losses of a parent with Alzheimer’s disease, a loved one with an addiction, or someone who is changing as a result of aging or transitioning. Drawing on research and her immense cache of clinical experience, Dr. Boss has developed six guiding principles for building the resilience to both bear the trauma of ambiguous loss and to move forward and live well, despite experiencing a loss with no certainty or resolution.  She joins me today to discuss this often unrecognized, but ubiquitous type of loss, particularly as it relates to closure - the subject of her most recent book, The Myth of Closure: Ambiguous Loss in a Time of Pandemic and Change. Our conversation touches on our collective grieving following the pandemic and our country’s awakening to the concept of systemic racism; how we can begin to increase our tolerance for ambiguity, and the importance of discovering new hope in the face of grief that has no end. Our search, she tells us, must not be for the elusive concept of closure, but rather for a sense of meaning and a new way to move forward.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Unnerving ambiguity… Using both/and language around loss… Pillars of processing… Moving forward, not moving on… MORE FROM PAULINE BOSS: The Myth of Closure: Ambiguous Loss in a Time of Pandemic and Change Ambiguous Loss: Learning to Live with Unresolved Grief Loving Someone Who Has Dementia: How to Find Hope While Coping with Stress and Grief What if There’s No Such Thing as Closure? - NYT Magazine, December 2021 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think we need each other. I say this all the time, there are some things that are too big to feel in one body. You need a collective body to move them through. And I think that's what we need. We need to come together in spaces to heal, not just to consume together or to watch a movie together, but to feel together and to have human emotion in real life, in public and act from the place of a feeling body, to choose action from a feeling body and not just a reactive or a numb body, but a body that feels, a body that can connect. What kind of actions do you take in the world from that kind of body? I think it's different.” So says Prentis Hemphill, therapist, embodiment facilitator, and author of the just-released, What it Takes to Heal: How Transforming Ourselves Can Change the World. In today’s conversation—the final in a four-part series—we explore a path to putting ourselves, and the collective, back together, and how this begins with a visioning…but a visioning born from getting back in touch with how we actually feel. I loved their book—just by reading along with Prentis’s own path to re-embodiment, I found myself finding similar sensations in my chest, back and heart. In today’s conversation, we talk about somatics, yes, but also about conflict—and what it looks like to become more adept with our emotions in hard times. This is one of my favorite conversations I’ve had to date on Pulling the Thread—I hope you enjoy it too. MORE FROM PRENTIS HEMPHILL: What it Takes to Heal: How Transforming Ourselves Can Change the World Prentis’s Website The Embodiment Institute Follow Prentis on Instagram RELATED EPISODES: PART 1: James Gordon, M.D., “A Toolkit for Working with Trauma” PART 2: Peter Levine, Ph.D, “Where Trauma Lives in the Body” PART 3: Resmaa Menakem, “Finding Fear in the Body (TRAUMA)” Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence” Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness” Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance” Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past” Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Million Dollar Advice is a work and career advice podcast hosted by friends and colleagues Kim Lessing and Kate Arend. Together Kim and Kate run Amy Poehler’s Paper Kite Productions and are very cool and good at their jobs. Each week, they help live callers with their work-related dilemmas. Whether you have a question or you just like listening to other people’s problems, this show will change your life. If you have a problem at work or a career question big or small, write in to milliondollaradvicepod@gmail.com or leave a message on the Million Dollar Advice Hotline (888) 799-6327. Kim and Kate can’t wait to give you some Million Dollar Advice! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, It’s Elise, host of Pulling the Thread. Starting next Monday, I’m doing another special series—this set is about trauma, specifically trauma and the body. You’ll hear from four important voices in the space. We’re going to start with Dr. James Gordon, who works with groups all over the world who are in crisis, helping them move their experiences through the body before it gets stuck. Next, we’ll turn to the father of Somatic Experiencing, Peter Levine, who has a new autobiography about a horrific trauma from his childhood that led him to the formation of his practice, from which we all benefit today. Next, I’m joined by my friend Resmaa Menakem, author of My Grandmother’s Hands, the creator of the somatic abolitionist movement who works with me directly to illustrate how we all carry fear. And finally, Prentis Hemphill is taking us home: Their stunning new book, What it Takes to Heal, explores finding our calcified feelings and patterns of behavior in our bodies and navigating conflict without projecting our pain. In the show notes, you’ll find related episodes from years past, including guests like Galit Atlas, Gabor Maté, Thomas Hubl, and Richard Schwartz. I’ll see you this Thursday for a regular episode—though it’s Johann Hari, so there’s nothing regular about it. RELATED EPISODES: Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence” Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness” Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance” Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past” Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this solo episode, I share some things that are on my mind right now, including: An experience I had revisiting my 22-year-old self. A powerful takeaway from a workshop on wanting and desire. And how I’m thinking about personal stories, memoir, and bridges to bigger collective stories. I also answer some listener questions (thank you, and please keep them coming). See more about this episode on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For November’s solo episode, listeners mostly asked me about the larger spiritual moment we might be part of at this moment in time—so I’m sharing some thoughts on that. Plus, what to do about male podcasters. Why it’s all too easy to mistake a transaction for altruism. How I’m trying to use my privilege to not morally exclude. And other things on my mind right now. (If there’s something you want me to explore in a future episode, drop a note in the podcast rating and review section.) You can find the show notes, as always, on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, It’s Elise, host of Pulling the Thread. Starting next Monday, I’m doing another special series—this one is about growing up, and no, it’s definitely not just for parents. It’s mostly about re-parenting, or understanding the driving factors of how we all come to understand the world. You’ll hear from four very different voices about childhood, social programming, and development. Two are pioneers in gender development: One of my all-time heroes, developmental psychologist Carol Gilligan, who I write about in my Substack all-the-time who wrote In a Different Voice in the ‘80s, is joining me on the show, and so is Niobe Way, who does for boys what Carol Gilligan does for girls. I’m also talking with legendary pediatrician Harvey Karp, creator of The Happiest Baby on the Block, the founder of the Snoo, and an ardent and early environmentalist—and Carissa Schumacher, a full-body psychic medium and dear friend who is going to talk to us about what it’s like to raise and be a highly empathic and intuitive person—and how you can retain and develop those abilities. Or shut them down. It will be a great series, coming every Monday for the next month. I’ll see you every Thursday for a regular episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm sharing a special preview of A Slight Change of Plans, a podcast all about who we are and who we become in the face of change. Dr. Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who is an expert on human behavior, and she’s here to help us navigate the changes we all experience in our lives. She sits in intimate conversations with celebrity guests like Tiffany Haddish and Kacey Musgraves as well as everyday inspirations, like journalist Euna Lee, who was held captive in North Korea for 140 days, and Kate Bowler, a religious scholar whose own belief system was thrown into question after she was diagnosed with cancer. You'll also meet change experts — including leading grief therapist Julia Samuel, psychologist Adam Grant, and psychologist Ethan Kross – whose scientific insights will help us make better decisions and live happier, more fulfilling lives In this preview, you’ll hear Maya in conversation with Jodie Patterson, a mother whose son came out as transgender when he was just shy of three years old. Jodie knew her son would face many changes ahead, but what she didn’t anticipate was how much she would change, too. You can listen to A Slight Change of Plans, from Pushkin Industries, at https://podcasts.pushkin.fm/scpthread. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Humanity is messy, each of us starts with ourselves, it's horribly messy and then multiply that times millions. And that's an incredible, lovely mess.” So says Joy Harjo, the 23rd United States Poet Laureate, and the first Native American to hold that post. She is the author of nine books of poetry, several plays, and childrens books, and two memoirs—and is an internationally renowned performer and writer of the Muscogee nation, with an innumerable number of prizes and fellowships at her back. Today, we sit down to discuss her second memoir, POET WARRIOR, which just came out. It is beautiful—not only the story of her life, but a vehicle for deep wisdom about language, metaphor, and ritual. We—as individuals, as communities, as nations, and as humankind—exist in a collective story field, Harjo tells us. Everyone’s story must have a place, a thread within the larger tapestry—and our story field must constantly shift to include even the most difficult stories, the ones we want to forget and repress. But, as she remarks, the hard stories provide the building blocks for our house of knowledge—we cannot evolve without them. To move forward, we must find ourselves in the messy story of humanity, assume our place as part of the earth in this time and in these challenges. For Harjo, it is when we turn to song, poetry, and the arts that we are able to re-root ourselves in the voice of inner truth, a knowing that has access to stories past, present, and future. And it is this wisdom of eternal knowledge that will help guide us forward—if we only stop to listen.  Joy is also the winner of the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize, the PEN USA Literary Award for Nonfiction, the Jackson Prize from the Poetry Society of America, the Wallace Stevens Award from the Academy of American Poets, and the William Carlos Williams Award from the Poetry Society of America. Harjo is the recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship, the New Mexico Governor’s Award for Excellence in the Arts, the Rasmuson United States Artist Fellowship. She is a chancellor of the Academy of American Poets, Board of Directors Chair of the Native Arts & Cultures Foundation, and holds a Tulsa Artist Fellowship. In 2014 she was inducted into the Oklahoma Writers Hall of Fame.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS Finding ourselves in the messy story of humanity…(6:33) Returning to rituals of becoming…(36:14)  The story of mothers…(42:59) MORE FROM JOY HARJO Joy Harjo's Website Poet Warrior: A Memoir More Books by Joy Harjo Upcoming Live Events Follow Joy on Twitter and on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Do you want to continue to live out the patterns of your childhood? Or do you want to make different choices? Are you programmed or are you self-determining?” So says Loretta Ross, Professor at Smith College in the Program for the Study of Women and Gender, a founder of reproductive justice theory, and an expert on feminism, racism, and human rights. Loretta has co-written three books on reproductive justice and is the author of the forthcoming book, Calling In the Calling Out Culture. Loretta has been a leader in the human rights movement for decades—she worked with Reverend C.T. Vivian, one of Martin Luther King’s right hands, to rehabilitate former members of hate groups. As a rape and incest survivor herself, she taught Black feminism to incarcerated rapists. She has learned, throughout her career, to lift the hood on peoples’ lived experiences—the identity they project to the world—and determine, through courageous conversation, where their humanity lies, and where their values overlap. She believes with a certain fierceness that we have far more in common with each other—across the entire political spectrum—than not. In recent years, she has become a vocal opponent of cancel culture—ironically, people have attempted to cancel her for this—because, as she explains, she’s interested in being part of a movement and not a cult. She believes that political purity and the policing of other allies is...the opposite of helpful. And that in the process of building coalitions for sweeping social change and evolution, we alienate and lose people who would otherwise want the very same things as us. Today, she gives us a crash course in the practice of calling in - an alternative to calling out, or publicly shaming those whose behavior or beliefs we deem unacceptable. In a culture devoid of empathy and grace, Ross implores us to offer people a chance to change, to give them the opportunity to be as good on the outside as they think they are on the inside. For Ross, recognizing that how we do the work is just as important as the work we do, gives us the incredible opportunity to bring more people in, building the power base of the social justice movement. When we choose to use calling in practices, she says, we choose them because of who we are, not because of who the other person is, and when we affirm the humanity of others, we affirm our own humanity in turn.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS Identifying your circles of influence…(8:31) The Uncle Frank strategy…(21:14)  Programming vs. self-determining…(27:29) Guidelines for the creation of a calling-in environment…(42:15) MORE FROM LORETTA ROSS Loretta Ross’ Website Preorder her book, Calling in the Calling Out Culture, by joining her mailing list Take the online course: Calling In the Calling Out Culture in the Age of Trump Follow Loretta on Twitter  READ HER WORK Undivided Rights: Women of Color Organizing for Reproductive Justice Reproductive Justice: an Introduction Radical Reproductive Justice: Foundations, Theory, Practice, Critique Reproductive Justice as Intersectional Feminist Activism   DIG DEEPER I’m a Black Feminist. I Think Call-Out Culture Is Toxic. - Loretta Ross, NYT Op-Ed, August 2019 Speaking Up Without Tearing Down - Loretta Ross, Spring 2019 What if Instead of Calling People Out, We Called Them In? - Jessica Bennett, NY Times, November 2020 Up From Hatred - Michael D'Antonio, LA Times, August 1997 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jamie Wheal is the founder of the Flow Genome Project, a organization dedicated to the research and training of human performance, and most notably, he’s the author of Recapture the Rapture: Rethinking God, Sex and Death in a World That’s Lost its Mind. In his fascinating book, Wheal explores the perplexing intersection at which we find ourselves, each of us torn between the desire to save the world or to savor the world. “We as a generational cohort are coming of age where we simultaneously have more awareness of life...and at the same time understand our existential precariousness,” he says, “How on earth do we hold all this at the same time?” Our wide ranging discussion takes on the heady topics of healing, believing, and belonging  and ends with Wheal sharing with us his ‘ten suggestions', a list of countermeasures to the fundamentalism, nihilism, and despair that threaten to swallow us whole.  Episode Highlights To save the world or to savor the world…3:09 Nihilism, suspicion and our meaning crisis…6:48 Reclaiming our authority, healthy tribalism, and the ten suggestions…30:40 More from Jamie Wheal Recapture the Rapture: Rethinking God, Sex and Death in a World That's Lost Its Mind Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, the Navy SEALs and Maverick Scientists Are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work Jamie's Flow Genome Project - The Official Source for Peak Performance and Culture Follow Jamie on Instagram Dig Deeper The Dark Triad traits predict authoritarian political correctness and alt-right attitudes - Moss, O'Connor - Queensland University of Technology Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“There's a fantasy in argument, in Lean In, or Girlboss style corporate feminism that says, once you have women in charge of your company, then your company is feminist, right. Your capitalist reforms can start and end with who has the corner offices. Right. Who's populating the executive suite. And so that's not even reforming capitalism, that's just trying to save it.” So says Kyla Schuller, Associate Professor of Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies and Faculty Director of the Women’s Global Health Leadership Certificate Program at Rutgers University. Today we dive into her heady new book, The Trouble with White Women: A Counterhistory of Feminism, which takes on the numerous ways in which feminism, so narrowly framed around the issues of white women, has in turn marginalized the experiences of women of color for hundreds of years. And the title has double-meaning: Because even though white feminism has been problematic, it’s also painted white women into a corner, left wondering how we got here. There have always been multiple kinds of feminism, Schuller says, a self-serving version dominated by white women, and an intersectional version dominated by women of color. White feminism, the mainstream feminist ideology, positions women as a redeemers, a salvific force whose mere presence in positions of power is enough to redeem that same power entirely. In sharp contrast, Schuller notes, intersectional feminism is an account of power, a place to interrogate the ways in which gender, sexuality, race, ability, and climate precarity coalesce to shape our lives. Only when we acknowledge these multiple, simultaneous identities, and come together across identity and power positions, will we form a strong enough political bloc to make enduring structural change.  Episode Highlights Against the white woman as a civilizing force…(7:14) Harriet Beecher Stowe/Harriet Jacobs…(12:44) Alice Fletcher/Zitkala-sa…(27:07) Margaret Sanger, a eugenic feminist…(40:02) Betty Friedan/Pauli Murray…(49:28) Mainstream feminism and the optimization of women…(52:28) More from Kyla Schuller   Kyla Schuller’s Website Buy her new book, The Trouble with White Women: A Counterhistory of Feminism Read her first book, The Biopolitics of Feeling: Race, Sex, and Science in the Nineteenth Century Follow Kyla on Twitter   Dig Deeper Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl - Harriet Jacobs American Indian Stories - Zitkala-sa Writing by Pauli Murray Eloquent Rage: A Black Feminist Discovers Her Superpower - Brittney Cooper Intersectionality - Brittney Cooper, The Oxford Handbook of Feminist Theory The Nap Ministry - Rest is Resistance   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest today is Dr. Sara Gottfried - a Harvard educated doctor, scientist, researcher, mother, and seeker with 25 years of experience practicing precision, functional, and integrative medicine. Gottfried specializes in root cause analysis, as she firmly believes that the greatest health transformations unfold when you address the root cause of illness, not simply the signs. She is the author of three New York Times best selling books focused on healing our cells, and our souls.  Today we discuss her most recent book Women, Food, and Hormones. Yes, we talked about all of those things, but we also explored the culture of weight and wellness, and why the scale is not always a predictor of our health. She took us through the intricacies of our metabolic function, and we together questioned whether the “perfect” body we have in our head even matches the body that allows us to function at our best. As she explains: “I feel like women are stuck. They're stuck between diet culture, which I think many of us reject this idea that we're supposed to be thinner, obedient, smaller, take up less space and have these unrealistic standards for how we're supposed to look. And then we also have the fat acceptance movement. And what I like to do is to position myself in the middle where the focus is on metabolic health.” She walks us through her protocol for hormone balance, opening up detoxification pathways, and even gives us a script for talking to our doctors and regaining agency when it comes to our health. Gottfried implores us to remember that we are deserving of support at any age, and that righteous indignation when it comes to our health can move mountains.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Discussion of Diet Culture & Body Positivity: Approx. 5:24 Metabolic Health: Approx. 9:40 Importance of Testosterone for Women: Approx. 19:31 Wearables: Approx. 23:48 The Ketogenic Diet for Women: Approx. 28:34 Detox: Approx. 38:42 Discussion of Courageous Conversations with Doctors: Approx. 49:54 MORE FROM SARA GOTTFRIED, M.D.: Women, Food, and Hormones Dr. Sara Gottfried’s Website Dutch Hormone Test Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Before our boys have learned to read, they have already read the stoic code of masculinity and are conforming to it.” says Terry Real, world-renowned family therapist, speaker, best-selling author and founder of the Relational Life Institute, where he offers workshops for couples, individuals, parents and therapists. He is also a dear friend. While he’s best known for his couples work, decades ago, he wrote the landmark book on male depression, which I cannot recommend enough. It’s called, I Don’t Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression, and with it, Real established himself as one of the most respected voices in the treatment of men and the healing of their relationships with the world. In this episode, we talk about why depression is “illegal” for men, the cultural programming of boys, and forced detachment in the name of autonomy. Our culture of individualism, Real says, has done as much damage as our culture of patriarchy—leaving men little room for the type of connection and relationality that we humans live for. He leaves us with the steps for deprogramming ourselves from patriarchal thinking and parenting as well as the ways in which we can support the men in our lives in service of deeper connection and the pursuit of greater relational joy.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Exploring Terry’s theory of male depression…(2:30) The cultural programming of boys…(12:50) Active trauma, passive trauma, and the severing of connection in the name of autonomy …(19:50)  Icarus syndrome and learning to find relational joy…(37:08) MORE FROM TERRY REAL: Terry's Website I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression How Can I Get Through To You?: Closing the Intimacy Gap Between Men and Women The New Rules Of Marriage: What You Need to Know to Make Love Work Take Terry's Online Course - Staying in Love: The Art of Fierce Intimacy DIG DEEPER: Find an RLT Certified Therapist Near You  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest today is Dr. Riane Eisler, social systems scientist, cultural historian, futurist, attorney and internationally bestselling author of many notable classics, including Sacred Pleasure and The Chalice and the Blade, which I read recently and LOVED—while it came out in the ‘80s, it is incredibly prescient—prophetic really—and more relevant than ever. In it, and all of her books, Riane explores the ways in which hierarchies of dominance—which are NOT our natural state—inform how we live now. “What we’ve been told is simply a false story of our past, of our present, and most importantly today, the possibilities for our future,” she explains. Dr. Eisler joins me today to discuss her newest work, Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future. In the book, Eisler implores us to awaken to the notion that injustice, inequality, violence, and domination do not tell the full story of human possibility. “We humans were really wired more for partnership than for domination,” she says. Guided by the ethos of partnership, Dr. Eisler’s work challenges each of us to play a role in the construction of a more equitable, more sustainable, and less violent world through investment in human infrastructure and a dedication to raising future generations by different scripts and constructs than those given to us. People’s minds can be changed, she reminds us, but a change in consciousness starts with the knowledge that there are different, better, possibilities.   EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Exploring caring economics, human infrastructure, and the alienation of caring labor (Approx. 5:09) The partnership model and the fight against sticky myths of domination (Approx. 11:00) Replumbing our dysfunctional operating system (Approx. 29:35) MORE FROM RIANE EISLER: Riane's Website Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future The Chalice & The Blade: Our History, Our Future The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economics The Power of Partnership: Sevens Relationships That Will Change Your Life Breaking Out of the Domination Trance: Building Foundations for a Safe, Equitable, Caring World RIANE’S PICKS: My Octopus Teacher - Netflix, 2020 Grandfather's Garden: Some Bedtime Stories for Little and Big Folk - David Loye DIG DEEPER More on Partnership Systems and the Partnerism Movement Courses in Partnership - Changing Our Story, Changing Our Lives Sexual Dimorphism in European Upper Paleolithic Cave Art - Dean Snow, Society for American Archaeology, 2013  A World Without Women: The Christian Clerical Culture of Western Science - David Noble, 2013 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think it's very important to mention also, Elise, that even if a woman feels permission to be angry, that anger is such a tricky mischievous emotion that it's so difficult to know what our anger means or what to do with it. So we may know that we’re angry and anger activates us to, to act, to take a position, to do something, but our anger does not tell us what the real issue is, who is responsible for what, what is the best way to proceed with our anger…” So says psychotherapist Dr. Harriet Lerner. Lerner is known and beloved for her many best-selling books about women, family systems, and relationships, including the classic Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships, which we explore in today's episode.  Lerner believes that anger is an essential, but oftentimes misunderstood and mismanaged emotion. She set out to write Dance of Anger to tackle female anger specifically, of which nothing had been written at that time. When women are discouraged from discussing their anger, she tells us, they lose a sense of self, as the pain of our anger preserves our dignity. We discuss the stereotype of the unloving, unlovable, and destructive angry woman, and the way in which female anger is only deemed acceptable when it is on the behalf of others. Lerner leaves us with tips for beginning to work through our anger productively, starting with moving toward assertive self-definition without asking for permission, and ultimately becoming careful observers of our own role in the patterns that keep us stuck in anger so that we may make positive, lasting change on our own behalf.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: The importance of anger…(5:25) Are you a nice lady or a bitch…(9:00) Working through anger productively…(21:40)  Moving towards self definition…(36:36) MORE FROM HARRIET LERNER: Harriet Lerner's Website The Dance Of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Pattern of Intimate Relationships The Dance Of Connection: How to Talk to Someone When You're Mad, Hurt, Scared, Frustrated, Insulted, Betrayed, or Desperate The Dance Of Intimacy: A Woman's Guide to Courageous Acts of Change in Key Relationships The Dance Of Fear: Rising Above Anxiety, Fear, and Shame to Be Your Best and Bravest Self The Dance Of Deception: A Guide to Authenticity and Truth-Telling in Women's Relationships Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“We are living in a world that primes us all for the problem of addiction. So even though some people come into this world more vulnerable than others, simply being alive in the world today has made us all vulnerable to the problem of addiction,” so says our guest today, Dr. Anna Lembke. Dr. Lembke is a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine and chief of the Stanford Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic. An expert in all things addiction, Dr. Lembke has published more than a hundred peer-reviewed papers, book chapters, and commentaries; she sits on the board of several state and national addiction-focused organizations, has testified before various Congressional Committees, and does so all while maintaining a thriving clinical practice.  On today’s episode, we discuss her instant New York Times Bestseller, Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, which explores the many faces of addiction. Dr. Lembke notes that addiction is a spectrum disorder, and though we often attempt to otherize “addicts”, the exact same mental machinery engaged in so-called severe addiction is engaged in the compulsive over-consumption that afflicts many of us. We discuss the way in which our brain is wired to balance pleasure and pain and how to know when our consumption has crossed from healthy, recreational use to addictive, maladaptive use. Finally, Dr. Lembke leaves us with some strategies for recalibrating our neural-balance, including the perhaps counterintuitive remedy of exposing ourselves to pain in order to treat our pain.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Identifying the risk factors for addiction…(5:53) The balance between pleasure and pain…(11:45) The Dopamine Guideposts…(18:49)  Finding healing stories and re-calibrating the neuro-plasticity of the brain…(28:21) MORE FROM ANNA LEMBKE: Anna Lembke's Website Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence Drug Dealer, MD – How Doctors Were Duped, Patients Got Hooked, and Why It’s So Hard to Stop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Heather McGhee is a designer of, and advocate for, solutions to inequality in America. We discuss her New York Times bestselling book, The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, in which she seeks to push us all past zero-sum thinking, or the idea that if you get something you want or need, it must mean that I get less. In fact, she points to numerous examples throughout history that show how this framework has made our society more cruel and poorer than it otherwise might be. Heather pushes us to recognize the fingerprints of racism in all of our core dysfunctions, from climate change, to the roots of the financial crisis, to the ongoing fight for universal healthcare.  “We must stop the siloed thinking that racism is great for white people and bad for people of color,” Heather says, “if you pull that thread, that’s exactly the same zero sum logic racists hold, that progress for people of color has to come at the expense of white people, that we are at odds, fighting over crumbs…there has to be a better paradigm of mutual benefit.” The Sum of Us is a story of why “drained pool politics”—an idea named after the fact that in the ‘50s and ‘60s, many towns chose to fill in their public pools and lose access to this social good rather than integrate them and share them with Black people—is costing everyone, in ongoing ways. She offers that with multiracial coalitions we can subvert fear mongering about an equitable society and fight for a more prosperous nation for all.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Chronicling the disappearance of public goods and the retreat from public life following the New Deal (Approx. 8:26) Investigating the roots of zero sum thinking, finding fingerprints of racism in all of our core disfunction (Approx. 35:22) Fighting for solidarity dividends (Approx. 36:35) MORE FROM HEATHER MCGHEE The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together  Heather McGhee's Website Follow Heather on Twitter and on Instagram HEATHER’S PICKS: Floodlines - The Story of an Unnatural Disaster Hosted by Vann R. Newkirk II Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619-2019 The City We Became - N. K. Jemisin DIG DEEPER: Support for Government Guaranteed Job and Standard of Living by Demographic Group - the ANES Guide to Public Opinion and Electoral Behavior Which racial/ethnic groups care most about climate change? - Yale Program on Climate Change Communication 2021 Voting Laws Round Up - the Brennan Center for Justice GET INVOLVED: Check Your Voter Registration Status, Register to Vote, Find Your Polling Place, and more Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Since she was a little girl, Carissa Schumacher has always seen and spoken to dead people. She pushed all of that aside, went to Brown and got her Neuroscience Degree, tried to have a normal life and career, and then Spirit made the call and she put that down and started working as an empathic intuitive and forensic psychic medium. She led retreats in Sedona, and worked with clients around the world, including doing a lot of pro bono work on crimes. This was all well and good until October 2019, around the time when I first met her. When Carissa was little an angelic presence told her she would be a channel for Yeshua of Nazareth, which she didn't think about much at the time. She wasn't raised in a religious household, she didn't even know what it meant. But then Yeshau “birthed” in her channel. This means that while she was leading a retreat in Sedona, Yeshua took over her body, and voice, and gave a transmission, or a teaching. Yeshua, as you might've guessed, is Jesus. If it sounds wild, it is. I have been in the presence of Carissa while she's channeling Yeshua many times now. And it is unlike anything I've ever experienced before. I would say that it's incredible, but they've also been some of the most grounded moments of my life. Yeshua is funny, brilliant, kind—an ascended master like Buddha or Lao Tzu. And as he talks, you can feel the codex is of energy behind his words. The transmissions also are not particularly religious. If that makes sense, as he has remarked, he never wanted a church in his name. And the Bible is a series of stories. Some that are instructive, some that are parables, many told by people who never knew him. Last year. He asked Carissa to turn on her recorder for several days and he brought forth The Freedom Transmissions, a series of teachings about the year that we just experienced, plus how to move forward. It is a beautiful book you can open and flip to almost any page and find something of resonance and need. In today's conversation, we talk about The Freedom Transmissions, as well as other moments from Yeshua transmissions I've heard over the years, including about the one thing that humans actually own, which is time. We talk about co-creation. We talk about the true definition of atonement, and we talk about the idea of freedom and how hard it is to make the leap from the cage. As she says, she is not Yeshua, just one of his channels and a student alongside the rest of us, but she still has a brilliant mind.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Connecting to consciousness to change the world…(17:10) Repentance, humility, and perfection…(38:01) Out of servitude through suffering, into servitude through joy…(47:56)  Planting seeds of faith, forgiveness, and freedom…(1:07:49) MORE FROM CARISSA: The Book’s Website The Freedom Transmissions Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“The NRA and gun owners then signified, you know, the sort of comradery, responsibility, safety, sort of a bygone, I don't know, sort of an Americana, right? The Campbell soup can sort of Americana. I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about the impending demise of the Republic, or how evil every Democrat was, or how we should hate our neighbors, or how we should arm ourselves for an eventual civil war or an insurrection. That was never, that was never a part of my upbringing.”  So says Ryan Busse, author of GUNFIGHT: MY BATTLE AGAINST THE INDUSTRY THAT RADICALIZED AMERICA. Busse, who spent decades running gun sales for Kimber in Whitefish, Montana, which focused, until recently, on crafting hunting rifles and other firearms for sportsmen, quit his job last year after he realized that his dreams of transforming the gun industry from inside—or at least being a consistent voice of reason and morality—were fantasy. He watched as the industry he used to love became increasingly toxic, distorted, and militant. In his book, which is a fascinating look at the forces within the NRA and the way they’ve radicalized America, he deftly explains all the reasons we are where we are today: Where our children are forced to practice active shooter drills at school, and where other kids—like 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse—can buy a semi-automatic AR-15 style rifle and kill two people while wounding another. And then be acquitted for self-defense. As he argues, we are on the brink of a Civil War with gun-owning, far Right militants. I know we’re scared, and he believes we have every reason to be. Like Busse, I’m also from Montana, and know many people who hunt—growing up, guns were present but never abundant. Now, responsible gun owners are being pushed aside by militant couch commandos, who are desperate, to quote Busse, “to shoot a democrat.”  While Busse is no longer in the industry, he is firmly in the movement for common sense gun laws, arguing that our best chance for reform is to bring hunters and sportsmen on-side. As he explains, it can be done—and we can bring the NRA to its knees.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Exploring the cultural connection to guns…(12:12) Hate, conspiracy, national tragedies and gun sales…(16:56) Profiting off of fear…(32:06) What do we do?...(40:04) MORE FROM RYAN BUSSE Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America Ryan Busse's Website Follow Ryan on Twitter and on Instagram DIG DEEPER: The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals - Michael Pollan FBI background checks, a proxy for gun sales, surged in 2020 - The Economist, January 2021 GET INVOLVED: Mom’s Demand Action Everytown for Gun Safety Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think what COVID did was it really made people realize that the state of their emotions, the state of their relationships, all of those things that felt very optional, meaning they were important to people, but in the rushing around of daily life, you, you could kind of ignore them a little bit. Um, you know, you didn't have to really think about them or face them. They weren't, a mirror was not being held up to you in the way that it was during COVID. And so I think that the, the good thing that came out of all of this is that people really said, oh, I want to understand this better.” So says Lori Gottlieb, one of my favorite conversation partners. Lori is a psychotherapist and the author of the bestselling MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO SOMEONE, which is a brilliant exploration of what it means to be in therapy and be a therapist—in her storytelling, she manages to touch on everything from existential anxiety to inconceivable loss. She’s also the co-host of the DEAR THERAPIST podcast, a brilliant show that tackles peoples’ real problems, like narcissistic partners and parental alienation. In today’s episode of this podcast, Lori and I get into the impact of COVID on our partnerships, the often uncredited grief of single people, and how we can come to deepen the intimacy of our most important relationships, whether they’re with lovers, friends, family, or even co-workers. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: We’re all unreliable narrators…(6:05) Emotional egalitarianism…(16:00) COVID and the great reprioritization…(22:53) When is it time to let a relationship go...(36:44) MORE FROM LORI: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Maybe You Should Talk to Someone: The Workbook Dear Therapists Podcast Lori's Website Lori's Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Outside the legal context, I'm urging readers and listeners in this case to think very deliberately about whether that high standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is really necessary before a person will believe so to speak, will feel confident enough to offer, let's say, support to a roommate or to a coworker. And I want to suggest that we should actually require much less by way of certainty and confidence in order to offer that kind of support to someone who is in an informal setting coming to us as a kind of first responder, because this is how most allegations surface. People rarely go to the police. First more often, they turn to a trusted confidant, someone within their inner circle. And it's the response of that individual that's likely to affect the trajectory to come” so says Deborah Tuerkheimer, a Harvard and Yale-educated lawyer, former New York District Attorney specializng in domestic violence and child abuse protection and current professor at the Northwestern Pritzker School of Law where she teaches and writes about criminal law, evidence, and feminist legal theory. To say she is impressive is a massive understatement. Today she joins me to discuss her book, CREDIBLE: Why We Doubt Accusers and Protect Abusers. We dive into a conversation about credibility and sexual assault: What makes a credible victim? How do culture, law, and psychology shape our judgement? And how can our systems be more responsive to the needs of survivors? In the court of cultural opinion, Deb says, we disservice so many victims by dismissing and discounting their pain that sometimes, the aftermath is almost worse than the event itself. We talk about the myth of the false accuser, underreporting as a reflection of our cultural credibility context, and the dangerous archetypes of the perfect victim and the monster abuser.  Finally, we discuss the push for restorative justice processes, which must begin with an acknowledgement of responsibility from the offender, and then go on to ask: “What will it take to repair the harm?”, ultimately turning to the victim and their community to answer that question.  Please note that today’s episode contains information about sexual assault and/or violence which may be triggering to survivors - I encourage you to care for your safety and well-being. MORE FROM DEB TUERKHEIMER CREDIBLE: Why We Doubt Accusers and Protect Abusers More Books, Articles and Op-Eds by Deb Tuerkheimer Deb's Website DIG DEEPER: RAINN: the nation’s largest anti-sexual violence organization National Sexual Assault Hotline: 800.656.HOPE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Like family relationship has obligations that go both ways. Hopefully there's unconditional love there, but it's also the, like your re your family and, and, and the other people in your family see you as family too. But in a job, if you, the, the whole family thing goes one way, you're supposed to give and give and give and give and, and, and, and feel this like guilt and obligation to your company and your coworkers, your company at any moment can sever those ties, you know, your is at will employment in, in this country. And, and, and so, like, that's not part of a, a family thing. That's not unconditional. Your job is totally conditional.” So says Charlie Warzel, who together with Anne Helen Petersen, wrote OUT OF OFFICE: THE BIG PROBLEM AND BIGGER PROMISE OF WORKING FROM HOME. Petersen and Warzel, ditched New York City for the promise of a better life/work balance out west a few years ago, which gave them a headstart on understanding the reality of working from home—before it became a reality for the rest of the world through the pandemic. Both culture, media, and technology journalists for Buzzfeed at the time, they found that the promise of work from home was not a panacea for more time to spend in nature: Like the rest of us—just earlier—they discovered that they were spending even more time PERFORMING their work, showing their managers back in New York City that they deserved the privilege of being untethered from a traditional office. Being out of the office only added to their anxiety and overwhelm. So when COVID hit, they were already aware of both the the pitfalls and potential of work from home—their fantastic book, which just came out, offers a survey of how we find ourselves in this intractable bind today, where for too many of us, our jobs have taken over the center of our lives, and how we can use this opportunity to reshape workplaces for a more sustainable future. In our conversation we talk about how we don’t prioritize the art of managers, how the idea of time and output is problematic for so many people who are not, actually machines, and what a more inclusive and human HR structure might look like, if it weren’t engineered to avoid abuse and instead could focus solely on providing support. Let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM ANNE HELEN PETERSEN & CHARLIE WARZEL OUT OF OFFICE by Anne Helen Petersen & Charlie Warzel CAN’T EVEN by Anne Helen Petersen THE BURNOUT GENERATION by Anne Helen Petersen “Galaxy Brain” newsletter from Charlie Warzel “Culture Study” newsletter from Anne Helen Petersen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“My goal isn't to not be afraid, my goal is to have a relationship with fear. So I presume fear is going to be part of the picture. So my goal is more to have a relationship to that fear so I can move with it so I can push back on it so I can learn from it. Um, and so it doesn't have so much power over me, but I, I've not, I've not met any truly fearless people. It's more that I've met people who understand their fear and have made peace with it.” So says BJ Miller, a remarkable doctor who specializes in palliative medicine and end-of-life care, which ironically means that he spends most of his time teaching people how to really live. When BJ was an undergrad at Princeton, he climbed an electrified train car and ended up as a triple-amputee and long-term patient. Understanding the healthcare system from the inside out inspired him to go to medical school—and it also put him into a deep and reflective dance with mortality, fear, and what it means to lean into life. He has become a cultural sherpa, showing us all what this looks like. These days, he is the founder of Mettle Health, which makes palliative care more accessible: He offers virtual consultations and guidance for individuals and families dealing with practical, emotional, and existential issues.  He joins me today as we discuss his work on life, death, and how we go about handling the in between. Our conversation covers the cultural numbness to death in the abstract and the concrete fear that arises when death becomes personal. We forget, BJ says, that suffering and dying are fundamental and intrinsic parts of life. When we allow ourselves to acknowledge the many small deaths that occur throughout our lives—whether it be the death of a relationship, of a career, or of a way of life - we can use these moments to practice losing and letting go, gaining clarity around what truly matters in the process. The goal, BJ tells us, is not to be unafraid of the end, but rather to cultivate a love of life so big, that it encompasses death as well. I am thrilled to call BJ a dear friend, and am even MORE thrilled to bring this conversation to you as we contemplate the year that just was, and the year to come.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Contemplating death and a fascination with life… Big deaths, small deaths… The illusive sweet spot of perspective… Stripping down… MORE FROM BJ MILLER A BEGINNER’S GUIDE TO THE END by BJ Miller Mettle Health BJ Miller - What Really Matters at the End of Life - Ted Talk, 2015 One Man's Quest to Change the Way We Die - The New York Times Magazine After a Freak Accident, a Doctor Finds Insight into Living Life and Facing Death - BJ on NPR's Fresh Air with Terry Gross Follow BJ on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“But the true guru, you know, the Buddha came and turned all that inside out. You know the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the word he used, “the Noble,” that came out of that, like the Brahmans were the Nobles. But the Buddha was like, no, the Nobles aren't, it's not that priest over there, lighting the fire, the sacred fire, the noble thing is like your own ethic, your own internal ethic, your own loving heart is the noble thing. The Buddha was all about that. He was a good, you know, cognitive therapist in that way, turning, turning people's concepts inside out.” So says Mark Epstein, a psychiatrist and Buddhist who has written several brilliant and beautiful books about the Venn diagram of meditation and therapy. In his latest: THE ZEN OF THERAPY, he reveals more of his own backstory, how as a young med school student trying to bridge the gap between his role as a doctor and his love of Eastern spirituality he came to help Dr. Benson study meditation and its benefits for the body. He opens the books though, by explaining that meditation is not a panacea, it is instead a rare opportunity to get quiet with yourself, to observe your own mind, and to process your emotions. In the ZEN OF THERAPY, Mark recounts a year of therapy sessions where he was able to provide psychotherapy paired WITH Buddhist insights—it’s a wonderful and fascinating book—I personally LOVE reading about peoples’ therapy sessions—and it offers many takeaways for anyone, including the ways in which we fixate on our childhoods rather than focusing on the evolution of our own identities, and where our own resistance to change can point the way to healing. OK, let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM MARK EPSTEIN, M.D. THE ZEN OF THERAPY by Mark Epstein, M.D. ADVICE NOT GIVEN by Mark Epstein, M.D. THE TRAUMA OF EVERYDAY LIFE by Mark Epstein, M.D. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

 “Are you doing something that brings you joy? Are you doing something that brings you fulfillment? Do you take yourself seriously when you have a dream or do you say, “Oh you are being too big for your britches?” What happens with morning pages is we are led into expansion —we are trained by the pages to take risks. The first risk is putting it on the page, the second risk is saying to yourself, “Oh I couldn’t try that.” The pages keep nudging you, and finally you say, “Oh alright I’ll try,” and the “oh alright I’ll try” is what brings you to an expanded sense of self because the risk you are afraid to take soon becomes the risk you have taken…” so says Julia Cameron, best-selling author of more than forty books, poet, songwriter, filmmaker and playwright. Hailed by many as “The Godmother” of creativity, Julia is credited with starting a movement in 1992 that has brought creativity into the mainstream. Her book, The Artist’s Way, has been translated into forty languages and sold over five million copies to date, inspiring millions of readers with its egalitarian view of creativity: We’ve all got it, and Julia is on a mission to help us unlock it. The book bestows the reader with a practical toolkit, including the famous Morning Pages and Artist Dates, in service of the broader creative journey and personal rejuvenation. Her newest book, Seeking Wisdom, explores connecting to the artistic process through prayer. In this episode of Pulling the Thread, Julia and I talk creativity, process, and purpose. We are so worried about being selfish, Julia says, that we end up investing disproportionately in the lives and dreams of others—sacrificing our own passions in the process. Her approach guides readers, one step at a time, out of a stymied life and into a more expansive, more joyful existence, opening up opportunities for self-growth and self-discovery. I hope our conversation resonates with the creator in all of you.  MORE FROM JULIA CAMERON: SEEKING WISDOM THE ARTIST’S WAY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s guest is Elizabeth Lesser, bestselling author of classics like Broken Open, and co-founder of the Omega Institute, an internationally recognized retreat center, renowned for its workshops and conferences in wellness, spirituality, creativity, and social change. Throughout her life, Elizabeth has been somewhat of a doula for people in transition, for those who are looking for answers to some of life’s biggest questions—she helps them cross chasms, simply by pointing out the path “The obviousness of something that has been with us forever and must change, is often the most painful part”, she says. Lesser joins me today to talk about her newest book, Cassandra Speaks: When Women are the Storytellers, the Human Story Changes, which interrogates the way in which our origin tales and hero myths, where men are the prototype human, continue to influence our culture. She reminds us that these old stories are only half natural, and challenges us to activate, fund, and educate the emotional and caring nature we all possess, to face our shadows in order to recreate an Eden in which there is room for everyone.  EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Women, storytelling, and paying attention to the world within us Elevating the importance of the caretaker Changing systems, changing self MORE FROM ELIZABETH LESSER: Omega Institute Cassandra Speaks Broken Open Marrow The Seeker’s Guide Follow Elizabeth on Instagram  and Twitter DIG DEEPER: Biobehavioral Responses to Stress in Females: Tend-and-Befriend, Not Fight-or-Flight - Shelley Taylor, UCLA In the Bonobo World, Female Camaraderie Prevails - NYT, Natalie Angier Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I've spent many years, like med school residency, as a mom, eight books, which is a lot of deadlines. Just a lot of things that have put me behind eight ball in my relationship to time, like never feeling like I have enough time, never getting through my full checklist, always feeling like I should be doing something more, even when I'm relaxing. So for me, it's taking on too many things at once saying yes, when I really need to say no, or maybe say yes, but not all at once. And just really checking in with, am I feeling spacious? Am I feeling unpressured? Am I feeling like I have the capacity to handle what's on my plate right now?” So says, Aviva Romm, who has the rare distinguishment of being both a midwife and a Yale-trained M.D. She mediates between the world of allopathic and alternative medicine, using the best of both approaches. From where she stands, balance is critical, particularly for women and our complex and sometimes confounding hormonal systems. Though Aviva Romm has written many books about women’s health, her latest—HORMONE INTELLIGENCE—is somewhat of a bible for many women I know, offering insight into the natural process of shifting hormones during different phases of our lives, as well as advice for treating all-too-common maladies like PCOS. While we dive into some of these details in today’s conversation, Aviva and I primarily talk about what it is to be a woman today, along with our collective ambivalence about aging, and the necessity of honoring older women—particularly ourselves. We also get into stress and the way we’ve been trained to use hyper-vigilance and anxiety as prods for perfection and what it feels like to let that go, and drop into our own bodies, to hear from them directly on what they need. OK, let’s to get to our conversation. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Bridging the gap between how we feel and how we want to feel…(10:49) Hormone intelligence and our innate knowing…(23:33) Embracing the maiden, the mother, (the queen), and the crone…(42:58) MORE FROM AVIVA ROMM, M.D.: Hormone Intelligence: The Complete Guide to Calming Hormone Chaos and Restoring Your Body's Natural Blueprint for Well-Being The Adrenal Thyroid Revolution: A Proven 4-Week Program to Rescue Your Metabolism, Hormones, Mind & Mood Aviva's Website Listen to Aviva’s Podcast, Natural MD Radio on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Follow Dr. Romm on Instagram and Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sharing an episode of Need a Lift?, a show that focuses on bringing people together during a tough time in our culture. Host Tim Shriver talks to wise guests who have transformed painful moments in their lives into purpose through their spiritual rituals and practices. Guests like bestselling novelist Min Jin Lee on why she creates complicated characters who hold the secret to our transformation, and Olympic athlete Michael Phelps and his wife Nicole discussing the importance of cultivating an inner life in competition, mental health and in their marriage. Need a Lift? is truly the antidote to the hatred and despair we’re all exhausted of hearing, giving us hope that change is possible. In this episode, The Office’s Rainn Wilson explains that we can quiet the world's chaos and deal with our collective sense of overwhelm by believing in something bigger than us. Find more episodes of Need a Lift? at https://link.chtbl.com/needalift?sid=pullingthethread Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

45-minute conversations and investigations with today's leading thinkers, authors, experts, doctors, healers, scientists about life's biggest questions: Why do we do what we do? How can we come to know and love ourselves better? How can we come together to heal and build a better world? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“If you have a reaction to a stranger or someone in the media or someone in politics or someone who's just providing this kind of blank slate because you don't really know him or her, then it's a projection. And yes, there's often a sensation in the body that's negative. It could be fear, it could be distrust, it could be disgust, right? And then there's the flip side. There's positive projection, which happens in the spiritual universe a lot. When someone is looking for a charismatic leader, then they're going to project their own awakening, their own compassion, their own wisdom onto the leader, the clergy person. So the content of the projection can be anything, what we view as negative, what we view as positive.” So says Connie Zweig, a Jungian therapist and author who has focused much of her career exploring and teasing out the implications of the shadow, which is how Carl Jung referred to the unconscious. Chances are that you’ve been hearing more and more about shadow work—it’s having a moment—in part, I’m convinced, because it’s a concept whose time has come. As I’ve written about a lot in my Substack newsletter, we are swimming in collective shadow, unable and unwilling to process our share of it. When we don’t take on this unconscious material, or darkness, our tendency is to project it onto other people and groups, to get away from it as quickly as possible. But, of course, it doesn’t work like that—our shadow is ours. It’s our blind spot. When we’re willing to face our shadow, to access it, to allow it to emerge, we often find that it’s full of gold. In fact, Jung believed that the shadow is the source of all of our energy, the main mechanism for growth—ask anyone who has gone through hard or dark times and they will likely tell you that the experience propelled them forward in unexpected ways, often for the better.  Connie and I explore all of these concepts and then some, as she’s one of the most prodigious writers in the space. She co-authored Meeting the Shadow and Romancing the Shadow, which are essential anthologies and texts, and then more recently wrote Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path, which explores what happens when the shadow, or darkness, is unresolved in spiritual and religious communities. She’s also the author of The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul, which is an exploration of the shadow of aging in our ageist culture. I’m hoping she comes back to the podcast soon so we can discuss that book at length.  MORE FROM CONNIE ZWEIG, PHD: The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life Meeting the Shadow: The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature A Moth to the Flame: The Life of the Sufi Poet Rumi Connie Zweig’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"How do we center the voices that traditionally and historically we know existed, but were only marginalized in the tradition? And that does feel like holy work. And for me, in part, when I encountered a tradition that was so driven by male stories and male voices, I felt so alienated by it when I first began to encounter it. And I had this moment, which I think lots of women faith leaders have, which is maybe this just isn't for me. I mean, I'm not intended to ever even read these texts, let alone teach these texts. And then I had an awakening where I realized, not only is it meant for me, but I have an obligation. It was waiting for me. It's waiting for me and for so many more people because there's a void until our voices enter this space." So says Rabbi Sharon Brous, a wise and wonderful friend, and the founder and senior rabbi of IKAR, a Jewish community founded to attend to critical questions. As Rabbi Brous writes in her beautiful new book The Amen Effect: Ancient Wisdom to Mend Our Broken Hearts and World , “How can our Jewish tradition help us live lives of meaning and purpose? And: Given our faith and history, who are we called to be in this time of moral crisis? We launched IKAR—our best attempt to address those questions—on a hope and a prayer, with no funding, no space, and no business plan. What we had was a shared conviction that faith communities needed to be spiritually alive and morally courageous at the same time.”  I read Sharon’s beautiful book last summer, and could not wait to talk to her about it. So we recorded our conversation early, before the Jewish High Holidays, at the beginning of August, months before October 7th. Rabbi Brous’s work in general is highly prophetic and brave—she has been a fierce and vocal critic of the increasingly right wing Israeli government, even as many Rabbis try to steer clear of politics. This conversation, which is not about Israel, is also highly prophetic and brave: It’s about the dire need for interfaith conversation, for chipping away at the calcified belief structures of religions that don’t fully serve our broken world, and for being with each other, particularly on our most painful days. This, in fact, is the theme of The Amen Effect, which is about an ancient mishnah, or overlooked piece of Jewish law that instructs us on the sacred act of circling—and tending, face-to-face, to each other’s agony and grief. In today’s conversation Sharon and I also talk about social justice and responsibility, a conversation that I’m hoping to pick back up with her in the new year, as so many of us feel a little lost and confused. While Rabbi Brous and I thought about doing a second episode as a fast follow, we decided to wait a beat—if you want to hear her talk about Israel and Gaza, I highly recommend you listen to her conversation with Ezra Klein, where the two talk about how some of Israel’s actions are indefensible even as Israel itself must be defended. Her sermons are also stunning, and available on the IKAR website.  I think Rabbi Brous is incredible, and I’m not alone. She offered the blessing at both Biden and Obama’s inaugurations, and led Hannukah at the White House this year. She manages to teach and model what so many of us need to learn how to do: We must learn how to hold each other close even through disagreement, disappointment, and despair. The Amen Effect offers some ideas for how this work might begin. MORE FROM RABBI SHARON BROUS: The Amen Effect: Ancient Wisdom to Mend Our Broken Hearts and World  IKAR’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think there's a lot of assumptions in play here that a good body is a thin one, a thin body is achievable, a thin body is achievable for everyone, and that you will be fully in control of your health and your mortality if you're thin, which is also just of course a myth. There are plenty of fat, healthy, happy people, and there are plenty of sadly unhealthy, thin people who should not be regarded as any more or less worthy than a fat person who suffers from a similar health condition. These people should be receiving, in most cases, just the same treatment. And yet, for the fat person who suffers from the same health condition, the prescription is weight loss, whereas for the thin person, they're given often closer to adequate medical care.” So says, moral philosopher and Cornell professor Kate Manne, one of those brilliant and insightful observers of culture working today. She’s the author of two incredible books about misogyny—Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women and Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny—and has coined mainstream terms like “himpathy,” her word for the way we afford our sympathy to the male aggressor rather than the female victim. The example she uses is the trial of Brock Turner, the Stanford swimmer who sexually assaulted Chanel Miller, and the way the judge and the media seemed more concerned about Turner’s sullied future than Miller’s experience and recovery. Her newest book is just as essential: It’s called Unshrinking: How to Face Fatphobia and it explores Manne’s own experience of being a fat woman in our unabiding culture. If you read the Gluttony chapter of On Our Best Behavior, some of the material she explores will be familiar—but in Kate Manne style, she drives it all the way home. I love this conversation, which we’ll turn to now. MORE FROM KATE MANNE: Unshrinking: How to Face Fatphobia Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny Follow Kate Manne on Twitter Kate Website Kate’s Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Every single human being is a pack animal. That's what we are biologically. We would die if we didn't depend on each other. Saying what you need is a form of connecting with your partner and saying, let's be a team. Can you serve me in this way? Can I trust you to have my back? Because I've got yours. And I want to be there for you. The other thing that people don't realize is that when they ask their partner for something they need, what they're doing is saying to the partner, you are my chosen one. You are my confidant. You are the person I trust more than anybody to be there for me. And the other person may feel very honored by that, actually. What that person is saying is you are trustworthy. You are the person that I know has the strength and the resources to be there for me.” Doctors John and Julie Gottman are two of the most famous and popular couples therapists in the world—not only because of their ability to impart relationship-saving and relationship-strengthening advice, but because of John Gottman’s decades of reearch in the so called “Love Lab,” where he observed couples over time and could predict—with a dizzying level of success—who was destined to divorce. In short, the Gottmans are the world’s leading relationship scientists, having gathered data on thousands of couples—they then use those findings to train clinicians and create simple principles for couples around the world. In their latest book, Fight Right, they explore conflict—something we’re all trained to avoid at all costs. Their point though, which their research supports, is that conflict is essential for healthy relationships, clearing out the brush of stagnant resentments and deepening bonds. In today’s conversation, we explore everything from fighting styles—there’s avoiders, validators, and volatiles—along with our tendency to start conflict harshly because we feel like we need a lot of ammo to justify the rupture and make our point. And then we move to modes and paths of repair, along with what their latest research can tell us about infidelity and its root cause. I loved this conversation, which we’ll turn to now. MORE FROM JOHN & JULIE GOTTMAN: Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection The Love Prescription: Seven Days to More Intimacy, Connection, and Joy The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work The Gottman Institute: A Research-Based Approach to Relationships Gottman Relationship Quiz: How Well Do You Know Your Partner? Find a Gottman Trained Therapist Follow the Gottman Institute on Twitter and Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Turquoise is looking for how do we bring back the village? How do we live in community again? Why are we living in these separate houses? We're not sharing resources. Everyone on the street has a snowblower, a lawnmower, you know, like the design isn't elegant, it's not an elegant design. And so I think the mind of yellow joins into turquoise and as it has studied systems, it contributes to that and we are looking for more holistic, elegant solutions to give birth to a new culture. It's like we can no longer continue down the path. And at turquoise, we are going to have to sacrifice for the whole.” For those of you who follow me on Instagram or read my newsletter on Substack, you’ll know that I’ve been quite obsessed with Spiral Dynamics of late, and see it as one way to explain our current cultural and political dilemmas, along with so much of our internalized anxiety. It was first developed by the late professor Clare Graves, who was a contemporary and colleague of Abraham Maslow, and then advanced by professor Don Beck, who worked on post-Apartheid South Africa with Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk, and then further pushed by integral philosopher Ken Wilber. Spiral Dynamics can be heady stuff, and so I was thrilled when Nicole Churchill, a wonderfully grounded therapist and expert in Spiral Dynamics, offered to talk through the system with me for the podcast. Nicole and her husband John Churchill, who has also been a guest on Pulling the Thread, studied with Ken Wilber, and both apply it in their therapy work with both individuals and organizations. If you all end up loving Spiral Dynamics as much as I do, Nicole has offered to come back and explore how she uses it in therapy—please pass this episode on to any friends who you think might enjoy. I’m convinced that there are some keys here that can help us see the world and ourselves more clearly. In the show notes, you’ll find ways to go deeper as well.  MORE FROM NICOLE CHURCHILL: Nicole’s websites: Samadhi Institute and Karuna Mandela John Churchill’s episode on Pulling the Thread: “Our Collective Psychological Development” MORE ON SPIRAL DYNAMICS: My Substack Newsletter: “Finding Ourselves on the Spiral” Spiral Dynamics Integral, by Don Beck Integral Psychology: Consciousness, Spirit, Psychology, Therapy, by Ken Wilber Spiral Dynamics, by Don Beck and Chris Cowan Trump and a Post-Truth World, by Ken Wilber Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“When I went back and looked at some of these shows that I loved, I noticed that the writer's room was all adult men with the exception of one or two episodes in Saved by the Bell's case. And I just thought, wow, it is so interesting that we talk about diversity and representation, like yes, of course, who's on the screen matters, but who's in the writer's room and who's telling the stories really matters too, because that's where stereotypes abound. Because those men were not writing Jesse Spano as an example of an actual feminist. She was written as a character from an adult male's response to like second wave feminist stereotypes. And they found that type of woman irritating, so they wrote Jessie as an irritating character. And it just was an interesting thing for me to explore the way I internalized themes from pop culture thinking about who was writing this and when did it contribute to a stereotype versus when did it communicate an authentic experience.” So says Kate Kennedy, a brilliantly astute historian of millennial culture, which she explores, in depth in One in a Millenial: On Friendship, Feelings, Fangirls, and Fitting in, a bestselling book that’s part memoir, but really a love letter and a critique of the culture so many of us grew up in. As part of my book tour I went on Kate’s podcast, Be There in Five, where I was immediately taken by her intelligence and deep, deep knowledge of the programming that shaped our consciousness, from Jessie Spano’s feminism in Saved by the Bell—and the laugh track it inspired—to the way so many women and girls were taught that our interests were dumb, shallow, and silly. Or, to use the parlance of the day: Basic. In One in a Millenial, Kennedy points to this long tradition of the veneration of action figures, Marvel, and football—and the deprecation of pretty much anything that girls and women value, whether it’s romance novels, the Spice Girls, or American Girl Dolls. While her point is not new—and certainly aligned with our summer of the Barbie movie, Taylor Swift, and Beyoncé—her exploration of how it shaped her own mind in childhood, and the way she experiences herself now as a result of it, is revelatory, and something we explore in today’s conversation. MORE FROM KATE KENNEDY: One in a Millenial: On Friendship, Feelings, Fangirls, and Fitting in Be There in Five Podcast Kate’s Website Instagram: Follow Kate and Be there in Five Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, it’s Elise Loehnen, host of PULLING THE THREAD. Today, it’s just me. I’m sharing five things I’ve been thinking about a lot—from understanding how to quantify and charge for one’s time, what to consider before starting a new creative project, and the art of a gentle no. I’m also answering some of your questions—about judgment, sanity, and the etymology of “should.” THINGS I REFERENCE: “Your vibration must be higher than what you create, otherwise you cannot manage it.” “The Construct of Time” The Matter With Things, by Iain McGilchrist Practicing the Gentle No What is Intuition? MORE FROM ME: On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good My Substack Newsletter My Instagram Solo Episode 1: What We’re After Solo Episode 2: Five Things I’ve Learned This Year Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Historically, there's no such thing as a pure tradition. And I also think as human beings, we transcend these religions and we transcend these cultures. And so the cherry picking is an affirmation of our transcendence. It's like, no, you are more than your religious tradition. You are more than your culture. You are more than your body. And you are also your body and your religion and your culture. Yes, yes, yes, all that. But you are also more. So I think, again, the power of the modern period is that we're all so super connected and in communication with everything that we know that, we know that in a way that we didn't know that, you know, four or five-hundred years ago.” So says Jeffrey Kripal, who holds the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University. Jeff is the author of many, many, many books that span a massive academic career—books on Kali, books on Gnosticism, and books on supernatural phenomena. He’s also the author of a short and immensely readable book called The Flip: Who You Really Are and Why it Matters, which is the focus of our conversation today. As an academic and historian of comparative religion, Jeff writes and speaks beautifully about the way that we’re losing our collective stories, and the way that we’re splitting ourselves apart, divided between the sciences and the humanities. In The Flip, Jeff recounts how both science and spirituality are using different languages to explain and explore the same experiences, and what emerges when “The Flip” happens, those often mystical moments when the minds of scientists across time have cracked open to see the world in a different way. I loved this book and I love Jeff’s wide-ranging and yet imminently approachable and kind mind—I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. MORE FROM JEFFREY KRIPAL: The Flip: Who You Really Are and Why it Matters The Superhumanities: Historical Precedents, Moral Objections, New Realities Jeff’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Neuroscientist Lisa Mosconi, PhD currently has 11 grants—including four from the NIH—to study Alzheimers, menopause, and the female brain. Dr. Mosconi is an Associate Professor of Neuroscience in Neurology and Radiology at Weill Cornell Medicine (WCM), and the Director of the Alzheimer’s Prevention Program at WCM/NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital. The program includes the Women’s Brain Initiative, the Alzheimer’s Prevention Clinic, and the Alzheimer’s Prevention Clinical Trials Unit.  There are many things to love about Dr. Mosconi and her work—one, that she’s focused on an underserved group, i.e. women, but also because her insights dramatically expand the way we’ve been conditioned to understand these hormonal shifts in our lives. The picture she paints of the female brain is not only fascinating, but it’s inspiring: As we age and move through stages, our brains continually remodel, becoming leaner, meaner, and more empathic. The female brain is…formidable. There are also many things we can do to make these turbulent transitions slightly smoother sailing, which we dive into throughout our conversation. Let’s turn to it now. MORE FROM LISA MOSCONI, PhD: The Menopause Brain: New Science Empowers Women to Navigate the Pivotal Transition with Knowledge and Power The XX Brain: The Groundbreaking Science Empowering Women to Maximize Cognitive Health and Prevent Alzheimer’s Disease Brain Food: The Surprising Science of Eating for Cognitive Power Lisa’s Website Follow Lisa on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Part of middle life is that hopefully there's a little bit of wisdom there. And I think that is part of what we gain as we go through this journey of life is that there is wisdom that's accrued, which allows us to exist a little bit more in the complexity and nuance of things. I believe so much of this work is that we have to hold grace and compassion. And we also have to hold ownership and accountability and responsibility. And I feel that way, right? It's like, okay, if there's something that happened in our childhood or something happened in our teenage years, something that happened in our twenties, right? It's hard to process those things really early on. And especially when we're younger and really immature, because the lens is so narrow. I think as we grow and hopefully as we get wiser, that the lens opens.” So says Vienna Pharaon, a therapist whose practice centers around helping individuals—and couples—identify old patterns, patterns that often belong to the family system, that have them by the throat. And then, of course, she helps people break them and find new stories for how they show up in the world. Vienna is the host of the podcast, This Keeps Happening and the author of the national bestseller The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love, where she outlines the main themes that she sees in her practice. There is much in these pages to which we can all relate, as she articulates five core, original wounds that revolve around worthiness, belonging, trust, safety, and prioritization. Sound familiar?  MORE FROM VIENNA PHARAON: The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love Vienna’s Website Vienna’s Podcast: “This Keeps Happening” Follow Vienna on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think historically we have always seen that intergenerational partnership is the way that movements grow and expand and the way people feel resilient about what they're trying to accomplish. The first defeat as a young person, when you feel your morals are on the line, your sense of justice is on the line, that is such a devastating blow and you really need people who've been doing this work for a long time to say, yeah, you're right. That's how that feels. It sucks. It hurts so bad. And this is how, when it happened to me, I got up again and I kept fighting. There is no future for progress without that kind of perspective. You need the fiery engagement of young people and you need the sense of history and the sense of perspective that older people can provide.” So says Mattie Kahn, a prolific writer whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, and more. Mattie was also the culture director at Glamour and a staff editor at Elle. Today, she joins me to talk about her book, Young and Restless: The Girls Who Sparked America’s Revolutions, which is a much-needed survey of young female voices who were and are often at the heart of political movements, whether it was bus boycotts, strikes at mills, or the environmental movement unfolding today. This isn’t just a book about ensuring that the names of these girls are preserved by history, though, this is an examination of why girls are frequently so central to social change, and what it is about their often-precocious voices that can capture the attention of the nation. This, of course, is a double-edged sword, as Mattie’s work explores how quickly we dump these girls, or move on, once they turn into angry women. Today, we also talk about what’s happening on campuses and what a container might look like to hold dialogue, debate, and discourse. MORE FROM MATTIE KAHN: Young and Restless: The Girls Who Sparked America’s Revolutions Mattie’s Website Follow Mattie on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“From my perspective, one of the reasons we tell stories is it helps give us a sense of who we are, we use stories to affirm our identity. And that's part of the reason why we don't actually like to call them stories, because if we call them stories, and we begin to see that the self is actually rooted in construction, made up interpreted reality, it can be very threatening to us and to our sense of who would I be without this story. And so that's one of the things that I really love about this is you can begin to see that my sense of self has to change, if I'm willing to look at my stories, what is going to happen is my sense of who I am is going to change.” So says Courtney Smith, a coach, facilitator, and dear friend who is schooled and trained in many different modalities: Conscious Leadership Group, Byron Katie’s work, the Alexander Technique, and the Enneagram. She is one of my favorite thought partners because of the range of her intelligence and the structure of her mind: She was a math econ major who happens to have a J.D. from Yale and a masters in public health from NYU. Before taking a turn toward the mystical, she was a McKinsey consultant. So in short, she’s a multi-hyphenate Renaissance woman whose bookshelf looks much like mine. You might remember Courtney from our conversation on Pulling the Thread about the Enneagram—if you missed it, there’s a link in the show notes—but today, we’re going to talk about Stephen Karpman’s Drama Triangle: What it is, how to know when you’re in it, and how to move past it…while recognizing that you’ll be in another one soon enough. We also do a little bit of live coaching and role-playing, so you all will really get a sense of how this powerful tool works.  Meanwhile, if you want to work with me and Courtney, together, we’re hosting a workshop from May 17-19 at the Art of Living Retreat Center in Boone, North Carolina. It’s called “Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness” and will be a combination of On Our Best Behavior and Courtney’s techniques. Honestly, I can’t wait—I hope you’ll all join us. The link to sign up is also in the episode page, or the link in bio on my Instagram account, @ eliseloehnen.  MORE FROM COURTNEY SMITH: My Workshop with Courtney at AOLRC: “Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness” First Pulling the Thread episode: “The Practical Magic of the Enneagram” Courtney’s Website ALSO MENTIONED: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders Elise’s Substack Newsletters: Ending the Manel The Perception (and Reality) of Scarcity Who Gets to Be an Expert? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“You want to find yourself? Give. We're not hungry for what we're not getting. We're hungry for what we're not giving. And then at the same time, you watch this old pattern of guarding what you have and of watching your mother take the leftovers and your mother taking leftover food and taking the piece of cake that broke in half while it was being served and taking the lesser car and taking whatever time is left for her to get her needs met. And so, you know, all truth is a paradox. And that's really what I believe is that I really, really give, but because I'm healing the codependence, I'm healing the self doubt, I'm giving from a place that is abundant because I live in gratitude. I notice how much I have been poured into, crazy love from a number of different directions. And I give that away. I don't give from my place of deprivation.” So says Anne Lamott, the eternally wise, prescient, and deeply human writer so many of us wish we could call in times of need. Anne is the author of 20 books—yes 20—including the New York Times bestsellers, Help, Thanks, Wow; Dusk, Night, Dawn; Traveling Mercies; and Bird by Bird, which is essential reading for every writer. I refer to and cite her advice all the time. Anne is also a Guggenheim Fellow. Her latest book—and the subject of today’s conversation is Somehow: Thoughts on Love that revolves around the William Blake line: We are here to learn to endure the beams of love—and how hard this is.  MORE FROM ANNE LAMOTT: Somehow: Thoughts on Love Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life Dusk, Night, Dawn: On Revival & Courage Help, Thanks, Wow: The Three Essential Prayers Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith Follow Anne on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“What is that instinct that might be asking me to do something really unadvisable or radical or leap outside the bounds of my own life? And that's the space by which I think we move forward in life. And that's the space in which I think we move forward honestly on the page and in writing. And I tell people, you know, what is it that you want to explore in your writing? Like the page is this beautiful opportunity to start taking some big risks, whether it's persona poetry, where you're literally writing in a different voice, or you're naming something that cannot be held in any other space available to you, or you're testing out just an idea that you're not ready to say out loud. The page is this really beautiful field that gives us a lot of courage to then apply that, I think, to our actual lives.” So says Joy Sullivan, the author of Instructions for Traveling West, which is a guidebook of poems for letting your life fall apart and remake itself as something new. In our conversation, Joy and I explore her early life: how she grew up in Africa, the child of medical missionaries, bound tight by evangelicalism and purity culture—and her relationship to religion and faith now that she’s left that behind. Eve is a central figure in Joy’s poetry, and you will hear why.  MORE FROM JOY SULLIVAN: Instructions for Traveling West Follow Joy on Instagram Joy’s Newsletter, “Necessary Salt” Joy’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“But one thing the whole “Karen” thing did, which I think was very good, was that it pointed out the existence of spaces Ostensibly open to everyone, but not, and then patrolled often by white women saying you don't belong here. And she got a name, and people with that name wince and rightfully so, but without that wince-worthy kind of situation, I don't think large numbers of Americans would realize that there really is a sort of silent apartheid in our public spaces.” So says Nell Irvin Painter, who Henry Louis Gates Jr. refers to as “one of the towering Black intellects of the last century.” I first heard Nell on Scene On Radio with John Biewen in his series “Seeing White,” and have been biding my time for an opportunity to interview her ever since. I got my chance, with her latest endeavor, an essay collection called I Just Keep Talking, which is a collection of her writing from the past several decades, about art, politics, and race along with many pieces of her own art. Now retired, Nell is a New York Times bestseller and was the Edwards Professor of American History Emerita at Princeton, where she published many, many books about the evolution of Black political thought and race as a concept. She’s one of the preeminent scholars on the life of Sojourner Truth—and is working on another book about her right now—and is also the author of The History of White People. Today’s conversation touches on everything from Sojourner Truth—and how she actually never said “Ain’t I a Woman?”—to the capitalization of Black and White.  MORE FROM NELL IRVIN PAINTER: I Just Keep Talking: A Life in Essays The History of White People Old in Art School Nell’s Website Follow Nell on Instagram Scene On Radio: “Seeing White” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“When we can pause for a moment and rifle through all that noise to figure out what the root of the fear is, then we can be with it in a meaningful way, rather than just let it run our lives. And a little bit of fear of death and a little bit of death anxiety is totally normal, for all of us. I mean, it's that thing inside that tells you not to keep walking when you get to the edge of a cliff, and even to like drink water, you know, hydrate, stay alive. It's in us. It's in our DNA. It's rooted in there. And so the goal is never to get over it entirely, but rather to learn from it, to be with it, to not let it run our lives, but rather to let it fuel our lives.” So says Alua Arthur, a death doula and recovering attorney who is the author of Briefly, Perfectly, Human, which is a guidebook for both how to live and also how to die. Alua is the founder of Going with Grace, a death doula training and end-of-life planning organization. In today’s conversation, we talk about what it would look like to get our death phobic culture a little closer to the end, why people fear dying, and what can be gained when we recognize the priceless gifts that come when our lives come to a close. Let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM ALUA ARTHUR: Briefly, Perfectly, Human Follow Alua on Instagram Going with Grace Website RELATED EPISODES: B.J. Miller: “Struggle is Real—Suffering is Optional” Roshi Joan Halifax: “Standing at the Edge” Frank Oswaseski: “Accepting the Invitation” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I realized I think there's a few things that are in our heads that are so deep in the culture. One of them is the idea that being overweight is a sin. It goes right back to if you look at Pope Gregory I in the 6th century when he first formulates the seven deadly sins, gluttony is there, it's always depicted with some fat person who looks monstrous, overeating. And how do we think about sin? If being overweight is a sin, we think sin requires punishment before you get to redemption. The only forms of weight loss that we admire are where you suffer horribly, right? You think about The Biggest Loser, that horrid, disgusting game show. If you go through agony, if you starve yourself, if you do extreme forms of exercise that devastate your body, then we'll go, he suffered. We forgive you. Well done. We'll let you be thin now, right?” So says Johann Hari, author of many bestselling books—Stolen Focus, Lost Connections, and Chasing the Scream. Johann is a fellow cultural psychic and his latest book—the subject of today’s conversation—bears this out. He takes on drugs like Ozempic and Mounjaro in Magic Pill: The Extraordinary Benefits and Disturbing Risks of the New Weight-Loss Drugs. He also writes about his own relationship to these drugs, as Johann is taking them. His book is a subtle and sensitive navigation of what is a tightly bound convergence of health and culture—and every page of his book anticipates and precedes the conversation. (As a disclaimer, I’m in it.) We talk about all  of it in today’s conversation, along with what would have happened if a woman had written this book first. MORE FROM JOHANN HARI: Magic Pill: The Extraordinary Benefits and Disturbing Risks of the New Weight-Loss Drugs Stolen Focus: Why You Can’t Pay Attention—and How to Think Deeply Again Lost Connections: Why You’re Depressed and How to Find Hope Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs Johann’s Website Follow Johann on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“In writing my book, I wanted to bring it back to the self because being online allows us to have this inappropriate level of audacity. And I think audacity is a very beautiful thing, but it gets so inappropriate online where you can go into Elise's messages and say, “by the way, I saw you liked this, you should be liking this, prove yourself to me”-- when the same person is probably not even able to have a conversation with their own partner in their home, but they can go online and demand people to say certain things, but in your home, are you that courageous to have a difficult conversation? Are you that courageous to have that same level of audacity in your day to day life. And I just worry that we're performing this very shadowy version of ourselves, especially online, without making any kind of effort in our everyday life to cultivate a strong sense of self, where you're able to handle conflict, where you're able to express disappointment to someone face to face and have a dialogue.” So says Africa Brooke, coach and author of The Third Perspective: Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. I’ve been smitten with Africa for years, after I was one of the 12 million-odd people who read her Instagram manifesto, “Why I’m Leaving the Cult of Wokeness” in 2020. There, Africa gave voice to being part of a culture that was supposed to be tented around diversity and inclusion, and yet, she found herself sounding and behaving in an increasingly intolerant way, a way that resisted diversity of thought. Originally from Zimbabwe, Africa lives in the U.K. and had already amassed a following for documenting her path to sobriety online—a path that anticipated the sober curious movement that’s become more mainstream today. She’s well-versed in spotting patterns and recognizing the way culture was working both on her and in her, in ways that were separating her from herself.  I loved this conversation, a conversation I was very excited to have—it’s a vulnerable one. I’m grateful to Africa for saying what needs to be said and conscious that more of us need to join her. As she explains, people quickly finger her as far-right—and the far-right would love nothing more than to co-opt her—but she’s more of a social justice advocate than ever. She needs people in the center, and people on the left to join her in pointing out how our cancel culture is, to use her term, actually “collective sabotage.” And how we abandon our highest principles when we turn on each other so quickly and make each other “wrong.” I think this conversation speaks for itself. MORE FROM AFRICA BROOKE: The Third Perspective: Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance “Why I’m leaving the cult of wokeness” Africa’s Website Follow Africa on Instagram Africa’s Podcast: “Beyond the Self” Loretta Ross’s Episode: “Calling in the Call-Out Culture” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“There are studies showing that, once your basic needs are met, and you're not worried about losing your house, losing your health care, increases in money don't significantly increase happiness, right? So I think, you know, money helps alleviate the very real biological primitive fear of you're gonna die if you don't have shelter and food and in our society, healthcare, but when it comes to things beyond that, I think that we have been sold the lie that money creates security and it's a natural conflation because at a certain point for securing the necessities,and it makes other problems easier to solve also clearly, but emotionally, money is not the solution to an emotional problem any more than food or having a certain kind of body or being married or not married.”  So says Kara Loewentheil, author of Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it Out. While Kara and I went to college together, I first met her when she was gracious enough to have me on her hugely successful podcast, UnF*ck Your Brain, where I obviously fell in love with…her brain. Kara is theoretically an unlikely life coach—she graduated from Harvard Law School, litigated reproductive rights, and ran a think tank at Columbia University before deciding that she wanted to go upstream and rewire our culture’s brain instead.  Kara is fixated on what she calls the “Brain Gap” in women—the thought patterns so natural to women that keep us feeling anxious and disempowered. It’s in that “Brain Gap” that we continue to both unconsciously support and re-enact a culture that doesn’t do great things for women. My work and Kara’s work are very aligned. In fact, Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it Out is a cousin to On Our Best Behavior—one that’s written with actionable insights, by a life coach, for getting to the root of the problem. MORE FROM KARA LOEWENTHEIL: Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it Out Kara’s Website: The New School of Feminist Thought Kara’s Book Website Kara’s Podcast: UnF*ck Your Brain Follow Kara on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“This is the richness of the traditional wife explosion, right? There's this simple idea that you get to choose. Now you're choosing to emulate a situation that's a fiction in that those women didn't choose anything. They had to dress like that. They had to live like that. They had to be nice to the men like that, because they had no bank accounts. They had no cars. They had no licenses. They had no income. They had no security. So, don't equate these two things because you're just kind of living a dignified version of something that was pretty egregiously harmful, you know. And it's the difference, I think, in knowing that you have an option.” So says Soraya Chemaly, an award-winning writer, journalist and activist whose work has been at the center of mine. Her now-classic, Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s Anger lit me on fire—not only for the deftness of her arguments but also because she is a meticulous researcher. What she gave air to in the pages of that book blew me away. She figures prominently in the endnotes of On Our Best Behavior. Her new book, The Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth After Trauma, follows a similar path. Soraya takes something we’ve been served as an ideal—develop resilience—and flips it on its head, both widening and undermining this definition. She challenges our cultural myths about this concept and urges us all to shift and expand our perspective on the trait, moving from prioritizing the role of the individual to overcome and conquer to focusing on what’s really at work, which is collective care and connections with our communities. As she proves in these pages, resilience is always relational.  MORE FROM SORAYA CHEMALY: The Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth After Trauma Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s Anger Follow Soraya on Instagram Soraya’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What actually motivates us? When we disagree with someone else—how can we do it better? Social psychologist and author of Outraged, Kurt Gray, PhD, shares what he’s learned from studying the behaviors of people with different experiences. He corrects a few funny things we got wrong about human evolution. And he explains what “concept creep” and “the creep of harm” mean—and why we’re generally much safer than we think. We talk about what tends to give birth to polarization, why we behave the way we do on social media, and why we often forget the complexity within our own perspectives. For the show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nicole Avant is a philanthropist, filmmaker, and former diplomat. In her recent memoir, Think You’ll Be Happy, Nicole describes attending to the grief and shock of her mother’s unthinkable murder—she was shot in the back by a home intruder in 2021—by creating a living legacy in her honor. Her mom, Jacqueline Avant, had turned her Los Angeles home into a refuge for artists, politicians, and world-changers as the partner to Nicole’s father, entertainment mogul Clarence Avant, who is the subject of Nicole’s beautiful documentary,The Black Godfather. Nicole grew up sitting at the feet of extraordinary artists like Bill Withers, Oprah Winfrey, Quincy Jones, Sidney Poitier watching as her parents navigated the world to make it better for future generations. In today’s conversation, we talk about that legacy—as well as Nicole’s relationship to the divine. Like her parents, she is a master connector—putting people together to see what unfolds. MORE FROM NICOLE AVANT: Think You’ll Be Happy: Moving Through Grief with Grit, Grace, and Gratitude The Black Godfather, on Netflix Follow Nicole on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ken Wilber's work and intellect is difficult to describe. Throughout a long career—and the authoring of 20 books, including A Brief History of Everything, Grace and Grit, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, and The Religion of Tomorrow, Wilber has put together what is essentially a synthesis of every psychological model of development. In fact, he locked himself away for years, writing every model down on pieces of yellow legal paper, and then knit them all together. I’ve written about Wilber’s work at length in my newsletter, which is also called Pulling the Thread—I’ll put links in the show notes—and I talk about his work on this show as well. Most recently, I talked about Ken Wilber with Nicole Churchill in our conversation about Spiral Dynamics. Wilber is a Spiral Dynamics wizard, though he uses it in aggregate with the work of other developmental thinkers, integrating the work of luminaries like Carol Gilligan, Robert Kegan, and others.  In today’s conversation, we talk about Wilber’s brand new book, Finding Radical Wholeness, which explores the five big processes we all undertake in our lives. In today’s conversation, we mostly talked about two: Waking Up and Growing Up, which are often conflated. Wilber makes the case for why they are unrelated processes—and the essential nature of the latter. While Waking Up, or having a Satori experience is wonderful—and something that 60% of people report—we all need to grow up. Wilber and I spend most of today’s conversation talking about our political environment from the standpoint of developmental psychology: Why we’re so fractured, and what it will look like when the Integral Stage becomes the leading edge of culture and we learn how to include and transcend. I think this is fascinating, and reassuring, and excellent context for a moment that feels so out-of-control. MORE FROM KEN WILBER: Finding Radical Wholeness A Brief History of Everything Sex, Ecology Spirituality Trump and a Post-Truth World The Religion of Tomorrow Grace and Grit More books from Ken Wilber More from Pulling the Thread Podcast: “The Basics of Spiral Dynamics” with Nicole Churchill “Our Collective Psychological Development” with John Churchill More from Pulling the Thread Newsletter: Transcend and Include Embracing Nondual Thinking Right Doing Ascending and Descending States vs. Stages Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Deisseroth is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and bioengineering professor at Stanford. Karl is also the author of Projections: The New Science of Human Emotion, which is a beautiful revisitation and exploration of his time as a psychiatry resident, where he encountered all sorts of people who didn’t quite understand what was happening to their brains—and by extension their minds. In the book—and in our conversation today—Karl explores mania, autism spectrum disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, psychopathy, and dementia, all in gorgeous prose. Karl runs a lab at Stanford that focuses on optogenetics, mind-blowing science that can pinpoint where adaptive and maladaptive behaviors begin in the brain. He’s won the Kyoto Prize and Heineken Prize for his research, which is not surprising—it just might change the entire world of psychiatry. Today’s conversation is far-ranging and it’s also surprising, including a conversation about how some of these disorders—like eating disorders, which can be deadly, can also be strangely adaptive. Please stick with us.  MORE FROM KARL DEISSEROTH, M.D., PhD: Projections: The New Science of Human Emotion Follow Karl Deisseroth on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Prune Harris has been able to see, study, and shift energy fields since she was born—a gift she didn’t fully realize she didn’t share with everyone else. Prune is an incredible teacher—I’ve been lucky enough to work with her—because can take esoteric and complex energy systems and distill them into metaphors, concepts, and practices that are both easy to understand and easy to do. She has taught me so many simple holds and gestures that have had a direct impact on helping me calm myself down and feel more contained and grounded. She’s the author of a great guidebook, Your Radiant Soul: Understand Your Energy to Transform Your World, and she has an incredibly comprehensive Youtube channel where she teaches simple practices. She’s wonderful. In today’s conversation we cover a lot of ground—from basic holds and energy systems to why most of us need to also ground up. We also discuss the auric membrane and what happens when it gets punctured, by other people, the energy of the world, and psychedelics. MORE FROM PRUNE HARRIS: Your Radiant Soul: Understand Your Energy to Transform Your World Prune’s Website Follow Prune on YouTube Follow Prune on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Stan Tatkin is an author, therapist, and researcher who guides couples toward more durable relationships. He developed the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy (PACT), a non-linear approach that explores attachment theory to help couples adopt secure-functioning principles: In short, Stan and his wife, Tracey, train therapists to work through a psychobiological lens. Often, our brains get away from us when we’re in conflict in our relationships—we lose ourselves to our instincts. He has trained thousands of therapists to integrate PACT into their clinical practice, offers intensive counseling sessions, and co-leads couples retreats with his wife. Tatkin is also an assistant clinical professor at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA.  Stan wrote Wired for Love: How Understanding Your Partner’s Brain and Attachment Style Can Help You Defuse Conflict and Build a Secure Relationship more than a decade ago and it became an instant classic. It was due for a refresh to encompass the wider range of relationships we’re now experiencing and it’s just been re-issued, better than ever. In today’s conversation we talk about the table stakes of a good relationship: Nobody cares about your survival more than your partner, something we easily forget. As it were, we get into a fascinating sidebar on Pre-Nuptial Agreements, which in Stan’s estimation cause many relationships to founder. I’ll let him tell you why. MORE FROM STAN TATKIN: Wired for Love: How Understanding Your Partner’s Brain and Attachment Style Can Help You Defuse Conflict and Build a Secure Relationship In Each Other’s Care: A Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through Them We Do Wired for Dating Stan Tatkin’s Website Follow Stan on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sarah Bessey is the author or editor of five books, including Field Notes for the Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith. Sarah writes most prominently about leaving her evangelical upbringing and working through the deconstruction of her religious beliefs to create something that feels more true to her in its wake—as part of this, she co-founded the Evolving Faith community with some of her friends, including the wonderful and late Rachel Held Evans. Bessey writes prolifically about what it means to connect with her idea of God in a bigger and more expansive way—one that has moved from Simplicity, to Complexity, to Perplexity, to Harmony. In addition to Field Notes for the Wilderness, Sarah is also the editor of the New York Times bestseller A Rhythm of Prayer and Jesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible’s View of Women. In today’s conversation we talked about ideas and processes Sarah holds tenderly, including a shift from peace-keeping to peace-making and trying to articulate a vision of what she is for rather than who she is against. There is much in this conversation to which we can all relate. MORE FROM SARAH BESSEY: Field Notes for the Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith A Rhythm of Prayer: A Collection of Meditations for Renewal Out of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving Faith Jesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible’s View of Women Follow Sarah on Instagram Subscribe to Sarah’s Newsletter Evolving Faith Sarah’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Poet and author Mark Nepo has now written nearly 30 books, including mega-bestsellers like The Book of Awakening. In this latest book, You Don’t Have to Do It Alone, Mark explores the power of friendship to lend life both vital energy and more meaning, likening friends not to the boat, but to the oars that can help you reach the other side of the water. I’ve been thinking a lot about boys and men lately—including the ways in which they suffer under patriarchy too, sometimes in more devastating ways. I’m grateful for people like Mark who are insisting and modeling that to care is to be human—and that intimate friendships are vital for all of us who hope to lead long and meaningful lives. Women have an easier time of this, though we can all benefit from reminders.  MORE FROM MARK NEPO: You Don’t Have to Do It Alone: The Power of Friendship The Book of Awakening Falling Down and Getting Up Mark Nepo’s Website Follow Mark Nepo on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You’ve likely heard spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl on my podcast before. This conversation actually happened on his podcast, The Point of Relation, and we went so deep, we decided we needed to do a Part Two, which is coming to you next week. Thomas is the author of two excellent books on collective trauma and resonance: Attuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World and Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds. He does work all over the globe in geographic pockets where a lot has happened, helping people create containers to move the energy up and out. In this conversation, we talked about locating “bad” feelings in our bodies—specifically in the context of On Our Best Behavior—though the practices we discuss here are applicable to anything.  MORE FROM THOMAS HÜBL: On Pulling the Thread: Feeling into the Collective Presence” On Pulling the Thread: “Processing Our Collective Past” Thomas’s Podcast, Point of Relation Attuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds Thomas Hübl’s Website Follow Thomas on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl is back for the second part of a series we’ve decided to undertake. If you missed part one, I’d recommend giving it a listen—it ran last week—though there is no test! You can pick up with this episode and you won’t be lost. Thomas is one of my favorite thought partners because of his presence—he can build and hold an incredible amount of space, which I hope is perceptible to all of you who are tuning in from afar. I can feel it through the computer. In today’s episode, we went deeper into our conversation about finding “bad” feelings in our bodies, sitting with discomfort, and learning how to move these sensations up and out. We talked about our collective responsibility to build this capacity—particularly if we’re not deep and directly in suffering ourselves—and why these deposits of collective trauma stick around for so long. On this final point—the presence of dark and dense entities that you can sometimes sense or feel, particularly in highly traumatized parts of the globe—we’re going to devote an entire episode. So stay tuned for Part Three, coming later this fall. MORE FROM THOMAS HÜBL: Part One on Pulling the Thread: “Finding Shadow in the Body” On Pulling the Thread: “Feeling into the Collective Presence” On Pulling the Thread: “Processing Our Collective Past” Thomas’s Podcast, Point of Relation Attuned: Practicing Interdepence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds Thomas Hübl’s Website Follow Thomas on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jerry Colonna is the founder of Reboot and one of the most sought after CEO coaches in the world. Before he began coaching executives, Jerry was a burnt out VC, convinced that there must be a better way to impact the world—and also convinced that if he could influence the upper reaches of corporate structures, if he could help leaders heal, he could vastly improve the lives of all the employees. After all, he had observed the ripple effect of unhealed emotional wounds being taken out on other people—specifically people with less power. This is the focus of Jerry’s two great books about leadership: His first one is Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up and his second is Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to Belong, which takes a probing look at power and privilege and how it can alienate those who already don’t feel like they belong. In today’s conversation, we talk about all of this and specifically one of Jerry’s main queries. This passage is from Reunion: “While necessary, it’s not enough for us to do the inner work of unpacking our childhood wounds and, with fierce radical self-inquiry, free ourselves from the need to reenact the old stories of our pasts. Radical self-inquiry that stops at the question of how we have been complicit in creating the conditions we say we don’t want—a core tenet of my coaching and my book Reboot—is insufficient if it fails to look out to the world as it exists and ask how it could be better.” MORE FROM JERRY COLONNA: Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to Belong Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up Reboot Coaching Follow Jerry on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amanda Montell is the author of the New York Times bestseller The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, as well as Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism and Wordslut. Amanda is a linguistics major from NYU and all of her work centers around the way that words—and thoughts—shape our minds, and how our minds are permeable to other factors, whether it’s the halo effect, confirmation bias, or Cult-like sensibilities. Amanda is also the host of a podcast, “Sounds like a Cult.” Okay, let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM AMANDA MONTELL: The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language Follow Amanda on Instagram Amanda’s Website Amanda’s Podcast: “Sounds Like a Cult” Amanda’s Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Katie Hendricks is the co-founder of The Hendricks Institute and the co-author of 12 books, including the bestseller, Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-Commitment. Katie and her husband, Gay, have been leading seminars and workshops for individuals and couples for decades—moving them from their definition of co-dependence into co-commitment. We touch on it in our conversation, but their definition of co-dependence is the only one I’ve heard that makes sense to me as they suggest co-dependence at its simplest is when your behavior is determined by someone else’s—when you are adjusting yourself around someone else in a way that is a disservice to the relationship. Instead, they argue for co-commitment, where everyone takes complete responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. They coach a lot of tools that I love to talk about on this podcast, including the Drama Triangle, and they also coined the concept of the Upper Limit Problem, which is our tendency—just when things are going really well–to self-sabotage. That’s a big focus of our conversation today. MORE FROM KATIE HENDRICKS, PhD: Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-Commitment The Conscious Heart: Seven Soul-Choices that Create Your Relationship Destiny The Big Leap, by Gay Hendricks, PhD The Hendricks Institute Foundation for Conscious Living Follow Katie & Gay on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tara Mohr is a coach, educator and the author of Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead, which is celebrating its 10th birthday this fall. I first met Tara a decade ago and was so taken with her and her insights that we did four stories together—stories that were deeply resonant with women everywhere. These stories were about understanding—and releasing—your inner critic, locating your inner mentor, examining the ways in which you keep yourself in the shadows and why, and the most potent one of them all: why women are so quick to criticize other women. We cover this same ground 10 years on—and it’s just as powerful as it was then. I loved reconnecting with Tara and can’t wait to do more with her over the coming decades, specifically revisioning what it might look like if more women led—but not in a model defined by men, in a way that might be uniquely their own. Okay, let’s get to our conversation. MORE FROM TARA MOHR: The Inner Mentor Guided Meditation Tara Mohr’s Website Tara’s Online Courses Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. Jamil trained at Columbia and Harvard, studying empathy and kindness in the human brain, and I’ve been a mega-fan for years, after interviewing him for his first book, The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured World, in 2019. His latest book, Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, is a must-read. It’s a love letter of sorts, a collaboration through the veil with his late colleague Emile Bruneau, who also studied compassion, peace, and hope.  I would love for every single person to read this book as it paints a more accurate, data-driven portrait of who we are, which is mostly good, and mostly aligned in our vision for the future. Jamil explains what happens to us when fear and cynicism intervene and the way we come to see each other through a distorted lens. He busts some other significant myths as well, namely that we glorify cynicism as being “smart”—you know, no dupes allowed—but cynicism actually makes us cognitively less intelligent. Yes, you heard that right. I loved this conversation, which we’ll turn to now. MORE FROM JAMIL ZAKI, PhD: Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured World Follow Jamil on X and Instagram Jamil’s Lab’s Website RELATED EPISODES: Amanda Ripley, “Navigating Conflict” "Calling In the Call-Out Culture with Loretta Ross" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

James Hollis, PhD is a Jungian analyst who is still in private practice in Washington D.C. Hollis started his career as a professor of humanities before a midlife crisis brought him to his knees—and to the Jung Institute in Zurich. The author of 19 books, Hollis is one of the best interpreters of Carl Jung’s work, making it accessible for all of us who want to understand how complexes, archetypes, synchronicities, and the shadow drive our lives. Hollis’s books are very meaningful to me—you’ll find a long list in the show notes—and the chance to interview him did not disappoint. In fact, at one point, where he describes what we do to boys as we turn them into men, I actually started to cry. Meanwhile, James Hollis still lectures—you can go to his site to find a way to see him live. The fact that he’s 84 and does not seem inclined to retire—in fact, he told me he has another book coming out next year—is a testament to how a vocation doesn’t feel like work. This is one of my favorite interviews to date. I hope you love it as much as I do. MORE FROM JAMES HOLLIS, PhD: Why Good People Do Bad Things: Understanding Our Darker Selves Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow Up A Life of Meaning: Relocating Your Center of Spiritual Gravity The Broken Mirror: Refracted Visions of Ourselves James Hollis’s Website RELATED EPISODES: Connie Zweig, “Embracing the Shadow” Satya Doyle Byock, “Navigating Quarterlife” Terry Real, “Healing Male Depression” Niobe Way, PhD, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis has one of the most illustrious resumés of all the guests on Pulling the Thread—and I think we’re the same age. Lewis is the John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Humanities and Associate Professor of African and African American Studies at Harvard University where she serves on the Standing Committee on American Studies and Standing Committee on Women, Gender, and Sexuality. It was at Harvard that Lewis pioneered the course Vision and Justice: The Art of Race and American Citizenship, which she continues to teach and is now part of the University’s core curriculum—as it were, Lewis is the founder of Vision & Justice, which means that she is the organizer of the landmark Vision & Justice Convening, and co-editor of the Vision & Justice Book Series, launched in partnership with Aperture. Before joining the faculty at Harvard, she held curatorial positions at The Museum of Modern Art, New York and the Tate Modern, London. She also served as a Critic at Yale University School of Art. I’m not done—in fact, I could go on and on. She’s the author of The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery, a book on Carrie Mae Weems, and innumerable important academic papers. Today, we talk about The Rise and how it dovetails in interesting ways with her brand-new book, The Unseen Truth: When Race Changed Sight in America, which is about the insidious idea that white people are from the Caucasus, a.k.a. Caucasian—an idea that took root in the culture and helped determine the way we see race today.  MORE FROM SARAH ELIZABETH LEWIS, PhD: The Unseen Truth: When Race Changed Sight in America The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery Carrie Mae Weems Sarah Lewis’s Website Vision & Justice Follow Sarah on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jim Doty is a neurosurgeon, neuroscientist, and the director of Stanford Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. Jim is also a bestselling author—his first book, Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart, tells his improbable life story: Jim had a tough start in life. He wandered into a magic shop where he met the shop owner’s mother, Ruth, who offered to spend six weeks teaching him mindfulness and meditation—these weren’t really things at the time—and ultimately how to manifest. After a rollercoaster of a life, including manifesting the list of things he wanted as a tween, he found himself back at the bottom again, and began to attend to making real meaning with his life. This ushered in his last chapter, where he has become much more than a neurosurgeon: He is one of the leading figures in the globe drawing connections between the brain, compassion and care, and how love shows up in the world. We caught up when Jim was in Riyadh, in the middle of the night for him—thank you Jim!—launching a new AI-enabled mental health app called Happi.ai, which isn’t therapy but is a friend in your pocket. Our conversation begins there before we dive into his newest book, Mind Magic: The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How it Changes Everything. If you think of Manifestation as woo-woo, Jim explains why it’s actually not—and the underlying brain mechanisms that are activated when you focus attention and intention.  MORE FROM JAMES DOTY, M.D.: Mind Magic: The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How it Changes Everything Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart Jim’s App: Happi.ai Jim’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“I think it's good to relive the past and then revise your life,” says Edith Eva Eger. “Go through it, but don't get stuck in it.” The world-renowned psychologist, who survived the Nazi death camps, and went on to be a colleague of Viktor Frankl, just turned 97. And she just released The Ballerina of Auschwitz, which is the YA edition of her major memoir The Choice. She joins the podcast with her grandson, Jordan Engler, to talk about how her mindset has evolved—and what she still looks forward to doing. See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“We need to be open to things that offend or transcend our worldview because they're clearly doing that for a reason,” says Jeffrey Kripal, PhD. Kripal—who holds the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University—returns to the podcast for a second time. We talk about different ways to understand the deeper realities of our lives, and his latest book, How to Think Impossibly: About Souls, UFOs, Time, Belief, and Everything Else. Yes, we get to time travel and conspiracy theories. And also what makes Kripal’s work fun—and funny. See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Legendary anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy gave us the term “allomother,” and by extension, “alloparent”—the pioneering idea that mutual care is the reason we’ve evolved to be the humans we are today. Hrdy, who is professor emerita at the University of California, Davis, has just written a new (and stunning) book, called Father Time: A Natural History of Men and Babies. Today, we talk about what she’s learned about human culture over the course of her long career, and the impact of her elegant hypothesis. See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this moving, live conversation with journalist Clara Bingham, we delve into the incredible stories that make up her latest oral history book, The Movement. Bingham reveals the highs and the lows of second wave feminism from 1963 to 1973, the women who transformed America during that time, and the reverberations that we’re still feeling today. I got choked up during this one. See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rightful Instagram celebrity Sharon McMahon is known as “America’s Government Teacher.” Her new book, The Small and the Mighty, was an instant #1 New York Times bestseller. With her trademark warmth and wit, McMahon shares a few historical secrets, her approach to judging people from the past, and her perspective on our current moment in time. She also tells a remarkable story that may convince you to work with, instead of against, your enemies.  See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl, PhD, returns for a deeper exploration of shadow. We talk about our instinct to disown what feels dark or evil, and how tightly we claim the side of what’s good, clean, pure. But Hübl also paints a beautiful alternative: a gentle integration that allows us to illuminate, and own, more of our collective shadow bit by bit—and to transform it into something hopeful, healing. If you’re new to the podcast, you can find my first conversation with Hübl (on locating “bad” feelings in our bodies) here, and our second chat (on sitting with discomfort) here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everything Richard Christiansen creates is incredibly beautiful and special. Christiansen is the founder of Flamingo Estate and the author of the new book, The Guide to Becoming Alive. He’s also a dear friend of mine. I loved chatting with him about how he moves so fast, what can spark momentum and growth, the qualities that make something precious but also cool, and what it means to ripen your banana (while this sounds vaguely sexual, it is actually a profound metaphor of his). See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices