PRODUCTEA with Leah, Growth & Senior Leadership (Leah Tharin)

Join me as I talk with John Cutler about some low effort takes on why it's not that simple to say that Slack overtook Teams just by looking at the usage numbers, the effect of the techcrash on the industry and what John is excited about in the industry.

00:00 Introduction of John and me
02:37 Slack vs Teams
08:33 Tech crash and the effects on Amplitude / the industry
20:10 Trends that we enjoy and are excited about
33:30 Imperfections and Meltdowns internally

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 I talk with Matt Greenberg about people leadership, reforge, it's roadmap, how stuff just breaks down every day and career advice to founders who end up in C-Level positions without having too much relevant experience.

At the end of this episode you also know why Matt thinks my 30% success rate with experiments is atrocious.

Connect with Matt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/matt_muffin

My Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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I talk with the wonderful Laura about revenue attribution in B2B and when it's worth considering it. 
When is an account too early when too late?

And how do we deal with the painful faces of reps when we suggest measuring outcomes in happy customers instead of MQLs?

Can we get rid of marketing or sales?

Is sales still the testosterone-filled environment it used to be like a decade ago?

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Adam and I are talking about lovely annual planning sessions, difficulties in advisory roles, and why loops are the thing.
What to do when you only have partial buy-in for a pivot that might require the entire C-Level to pull?
The misunderstanding of "Growth" and the recent news of Reforge laying off people.
Also hear live how Adam manages to lose sight of his dog.

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Matthew shaped his book into a critical part of my and many other product people's understanding of modern organizational building in tech.
We talk about it in detail about what makes an organization great and what to look out for.
How the industry changed from when we shipped everything on CD-ROMs to modern tech development as we know it today with organizations that need to be able to ship multiple releases a day.
How did the requirements change for pretty much any leader in the space as a result when we moved from coordinating to alignment?

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Jennifer talks about her gig at Onomondo a company built for IoT connectivity. From finding your scooter to having vaccine shipments at the correct temperature at all times.
Why MQLs suck and how Marketing & Sales have to shape up to be ready for the future. Experimentation and the evolution for learning with the customer instead of creating more silos.
Whether she ghosts or replies to everyone all the time.

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The passionate and unparalleled Scott Brinker talks about his love for Martech. He is an insights factory, second to none and we talk about all things marketing at scale, market ops and why MQLs suck.
What trends are going to amplify and why AI is going to take over the world but not quite.

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I talk with Tim Geisenheimer about everything related to product-led sales.

What's easier? To transform a product-led growth distribution to product-led sales or to pivot an existing sales organization to product-led sales?

Specifics on what PQA's / PQL's can do for you and how to qualify your accounts the right way.

If you are working in product, are interested in product-led growth or toy with the idea to bring in Product-led Sales to your company. This episode is for you.

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David Pereira on when product management goes wrong and it's better to be called bullshit management.

When things get overcomplicated practical advice is needed and egos are hurt. In the end, it's about delivering value for the users.

David has a talent of getting to the level where agile is a framework that belongs to the past. He talks about Strategy, decision making and how to deal with prioritization.

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Season 2 is all about product-led growth! And we kick it off with a banger!

Elena Verna and I are talking about the insecurity side of content production in a broader scope and package everything inside of "Product-led Growth". Plus memes and trends in the industry :D

It turned out to be an episode that I treasure very much  🌸 . Many great moments:

0:00 Elena’s relevance to Leah and how I perceive her LinkedIn content

03:30 How Elena treats her LinkedIn as a freemium model

08:55 How LinkedIn acquisition is a great fit for our introverted selves

11:40 Why we should not hold back from sharing our learnings

14:30 Elena’s Impostor Syndrome and how she understands it

18:40 Leah’s Impostor Syndrome and how it’s about being curious about the world

22:30 Losing a growth mindset as children

25:20 How outside expectations crushed Leah in school going forward

28:00 B2B Acquisition patterns and the advent of product-led growth

32:20 Types of businesses that you encounter in consulting and how to lead them to product-led growth

34:50 Sales and incentivization in PLG

37:45 Leah’s bid on Product Sales Management a new Product Management specialization

39:15 Elena on Growth teams with sales competencies

42:10 How to reach out to Elena


Elena's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna/
Leah's Linkedin: https://linktr.ee/leahtharin

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Dave Boyce started to talk to me about meatloaf. The logical follow-up to this topic is of course that he is a board member at Forrester. And a great human to be and spend time with. He advocated for PLG through Winning by Design, an amazing gig that gets the numbers right about PLG. Their visualizations are legendary and the reason for this is the people behind them, David is one of them.

0:00 Dave and Leah introductions

05:30 What do people get wrong about Dave Boyce

08:40 How Dave sees his growth mindset and puts his ego where it belongs.

09:45 Why we should not hold back from sharing our learnings

16:15 Dave’s beautiful story of realizing that we’re all just humans during his entire career

20:35 Leah’s framework about leaders and why it’s impossible to have it together all the time

23:00 Dave’s definition of leadership. Bringing people somewhere they can’t see yet

26:00 When letting people go becomes difficult, and how some decisions are impossible to get right.

28:50 The connection to middle management. Do not resent people for making mistakes under you.

30:40 Winning by Design and its mission to push into unexplored territory connected to PLG

35:15 Why the math of Sales-Led doesn’t work when PLG could work.

36:30 Leah’s take on PLG

43:00 How sales can be a miserable experience

47:15 It’s not about pretense anymore, it’s about bringing the best we have to offer to our fellow humans

48:30 How Hubspot brought PLG to Leah

56:00 How to bring Product-led Sales into a Sales-led organization

59:15 The trend about bringing Product to Sales

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Wes Bush joined me to talk about everything product-led. Wes specialized in advising companies on product-led growth through his courses and successful book. He’s a fun, authentic person to be around and I loved every minute we spent together.

His no-bullshit approach to product-led growth is exactly why I started following him closer 5 months ago and have not regretted it in the slightest. There are a ton of very specific learnings in this talk condensed to one hour.

00:00 Wes and Leah's introductions

04:00 On the fundamentals of Product-led Growth and how its fundamentals are still basic business

07:10 How consulting differs from how we represent PLG on LinkedIn and other spaces.

09:40 How to get everyone on the same page in company consulting. Start at the very basics.

10:55 How the term Product-led Growth is misleading and misunderstood.

12:30 Product-Led Growth is not a binary, it’s a spectrum

16:30 Coaching around PLG and how it is a tricky business to get buy-in from the entire organization

19:15 Trying to convince people vs. doing team building around product-led growth

21:50 ProductLed the company and how the product changed

25:00 Chairs and ICPs

28:00 Empowering anybody to do anything.

30:40 How a product-led growth approach transcends everything

33:45 The ideal customer for Productled

39:35 Product-led Sales and whether it’s too early yet

44:50 The mixup with Customer Success and the ensuing bloodbath

48:30 What happens if Wes goes missing? How would his friends describe him to the police?

50:00 If Wes had a time machine, what company would he have joined?

53:15 Trends Wes believes in

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Kyle Poyar joined me on the ProductTea to talk about anything that makes businesses and VCs tick.

I love this conversation for the simplicity of how Investors make decisions and what the future of our industry might very well look like. You should leave this podcast once you listened to it with some great insights into what makes product-led growth companies run differently than their competitors.

 

00:00 Kyle and Leah’s introduction

04:00 Using LinkedIn to validate concepts and Ideas

07:20 The balancing act of what we say and what we mean in different channels

08:45 Consistency on LinkedIn and challenging established things like the NPS

13:00 Kyle’s “Growth Unhinged” posts as a well of knowledge of the past 6 years in PLG

15:30 The business model of “Openview”, Investment profile, and typical companies to invest in

18:45 How to determine whether a company has reached product-market fit

22:15 How to “show” product-market fit with non-obvious numbers

26:20 How long it takes to “proof” a certain motion, typical Lifetime Value numbers

29:30 The data Gap of tracking emails instead of people

34:57 Investing into companies that have no revenue to show for

39:00 Pre-Seed investment methods

43:33 Do you know how the business you work in, works?

45:00 Putting a price on Customer Success and the increasing business literacy around it

47:30 When risk profiles are driven by greed and how PLG runs on a “skeleton crew”

50:15 Where PLG companies spend more money than others

51:50 Product-Led Sales and the maturity it’s in.

Connect!

Kyles LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/ 
Kyle’s Substack: 

Kyle Poyar’s Growth Unhinged 

Connect with Leah: https://linktr.ee/leahtharin 

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Season 2 is all about product-led growth! Ben Williams is a friend and an amazingly structured advisor in the product-led growth space. If you have ever wondered specifically how we structure our work, either as someone that looks into advising themselves or as a company that wonders how this episode is for you.

Timestamps:

0:00 Ben’s introduction and relevance to Leah

02:20 What do people get wrong about Ben?

03:20 Ben’s model as a consultant in the product-led growth space

04:50 Going full-time as an advisor, how to make the scary jump

08:40 The Growth model Rubick’s cube: How to explain growth motions

13:28 PLG is easy in principle but hard in practice to pivot towards

15:25 What steps do we always take at the beginning of PLG?

18:15 Companies need to be intentional about their data and the structure around it

21:41 Centralizing data competency vs. data organization

25:05 The deal with engagement metrics and why should use them more

27:50 Why engagement is not measured properly and the effects of it

33:40 Breadth of engagement vs depth of engagement

37:03 Engagement is not only a function of your customer but of your employees as well

39:00 How to engage with Ben

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Timestamps:

0:00 Blake’s Introduction

03:15 What do people get wrong about Blake?

05:58 The effect of VCs suddenly knowing your domain really well.

08:15 When VCs tell businesses to focus

09:48 The effects of AI and how it changes the entire market

11:45 Market dynamics explained on the example of being a musician.

16:30 The difference between consumer vs business

20:15 The biggest B2C businesses have a B2B model. Meta, Facebook, google

22:00 Misconceptions about “product-led growth”

24:52 Hacks vs. sustainable growth to capture VCs’ interest

28:56 Going viral and how to make the unrepeatable valuable

31:10 Blake’s talent for simplification without diluting the message on different social media channels

33:53 How to make yourself stand out as a company

37:10 The bloodbath market situation and the hangover

41:20 Insecurities and the realization that we’re all a bit shit. The creators perspective, and being a board member when things go south

46:15 How we get used to “scale” and the psychology behind it

49:13 How businesses distort their accomplishments on social media

53:10 Nonobvious trends that Blake is betting on - Product-led Growth, everywhere, the fall of enterprise

Connect!

Blake’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blakebartlett/

Blake’s PLG123 on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaVvQTEaCyt2bbkoAh7wPyg

Connect with Leah: https://linktr.ee/leahtharin

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Season 2 of the Productea, product-led growth! Yuriy the advising legend. The man that crashes your browser memory because he has so many companies listed. He helped bring Grammarly to its legendary status and is an advisor to lots of prestigious companies like Airtable, Canva, Oyster, Whimsical, Flo, and many more.

Timestamps:

0:00 Yuriys Introduction

12:10 Leah’s garbage CV

16:18 How does Yuriy position himself?

21:00 Interesting advising clients…. Airtable

24:00 Canva and how Yuriy landed it as an advising gig

27:35 Talking about what we do expands our knowledge

30:00 Machine learning in Tech, what’s the deal?

34:33 Warping the message and reality of the market by oversimplifying the message.

36:48 Looking from the outside looking in vs. being inside a company

42:50 What Traction is a success metric for Yuriy in advisory?

47:00 Discovery conversation and their structuring

49:10 Trends that Yuriy bets on

51:43 Where would Yuriy have liked to be a fly on the wall years ago

Connect!

Yuriy’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuriytimen/

Yuriy’s Website: https://www.yuriytimen.com/

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Season 2 of the Productea, product-led growth! April is an expert in positioning and she graced me with her presence to talk about it. Turns out we are quite fun together and spilling the tea with her was incredibly fun. She even managed to interrupt me at times.

“Creating a safety net for me messing up unlocked me”

What an incredible time and learnings she shared in her typical direct way.

Timestamps:

0:00 April’s Introduction

02:30 What do people get wrong about you April?

04:15 April’s path to consulting and being empowered because of choice

07:20 April interviewing Leah. What has changed in the last 2 decades in our industry

09:30 How startups used to be built in the past vs. today

12:00 The effect of venture capital being everywhere

14:30 Positioning vs Messaging

18:30 The fear of having to “decide” to serve certain customers and how to get around it

25:50 Hacks vs. scaleable, repeatable tactics

30:10 Charging for leverage instead of scarcity

33:00 How do you deal with impostor syndrome?

33:20 Putting others on a pedestal

39:10 The one advice April wished she had earlier in her career

44:15 What trend do you see in the industry that you bet on? “Growth Hacking”

47:00 Trying to copy things instead of thinking about what you can sustain

Shownotes

April Dunford: Obviously Awesome (Amazon)

Rise & Trout: Positioning the Battle for your Mind

Connect!

April’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/

April’s Website: https://www.aprildunford.com/

Connect with Leah: https://linktr.ee/leahtharin

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*This is a remastered, recut episode recorded earlier in the year with better audio and listening quality* 

We're discussing what people may not see from the outside and our favorite topic: Impostor syndrome in a professional environment. If you want to hear a very personal perspective.


In part 2 Remastered we talk specifically about product-led growth which will be released as a separate episode shortly after this episode.

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*This is a remastered, recut episode recorded earlier in the year with better audio and listening quality* 

Elena and I talk about everything product-led growth and particularly dive into product-led sales and what product-qualified accounts are all about when we combine sales and product.

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Petra is an expert in coaching and wrote one of the most popular books on the topic “Strong Product People” which is a fantastic operative, down-to-earth guide to growing future leaders.

Timestamps:

0:00 Petra’s Introduction

04:40 The issues with conferences

09:20 What do people get wrong about Petra?

13:30 The time is right to be in Product Management

17:40 Academia-led education is losing its importance & Petra’s most valuable source of knowledge

20:05 Who are Petra’s favorite product people to help out?

22:50 How does anyone in product prepare for this industry today?

27:00 Define your realistic Learning Roadmap

29:50 People idolize thought leaders, and realism in our day to day

34:00 Learnings from Being a public product figure

35:40 Personal Development, learning from and with each other

39:30 Most of the time we’re just not correct. We live in an “it depends” world

43:50 Trends in the industry, where does this all go?

Show notes

Petra Wille: Strong Product People

Connect!

Petra’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petra-wille-b8b1329

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Gagan is a serial entrepreneur who cannot get enough when it comes to enabling efficient learning. He co-founded Udemy and Maven, both huge learning platforms.

We’re talking about the importance and future of learning and why it’s becoming more relevant than ever and the entire AI craziness around it.

Timestamps:

0:00 Gagan’s introduction

02:00 The perpetual wheel of serial entrepreneurship pain and why we still do it

05:15 Efficiency by way of experience in running companies

08:55 The ideal person to learn something from cohort-based learning like Maven

11:20 Leah’s experience learning stuff in cohorts

13:27 Universities are getting beat by their own game

18:30 Companies and learning budgets

24:15 Learning how to learn, completion rates by format

30:05 AI / AR / VR and trends that never really get hold in the market, is AI going to be THAT crazy?

35:55 What’s happening if you sleep on learning about AI in the next couple of years

40:14 The goal of the AI revolution for you in product

43:40 Trends Gagan is betting on - the future of work

48:00 Leah’s PLG cohort focus

50:40 How should people get in touch with Gagan

Show notes

Maven: https://maven.com/

Leah’s product-led growth Cohort: https://maven.com/leah-tharin/productledgrowth

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Tanja is the founder of Product Academy, a Mom, an Angel Investor, and someone that wrestled control over her calendar through years of experience, burnout, and other incredible lifehacks.

Her family runs on OKRs and we both dive deep into how our understanding of behavior is driving everything.

Timestamps:

0:00 Tanja’s introduction
08:20 Saying no to people, being intentional about your time
10:12 Burnout
13:46 OKR planning for your family and yourself
17:50 Incentivization is the main predictor of how a company is run
19:32 Tanja’s most influential source of wisdom - Entrepreneurship
22:10 Putting people before companies and when to make the decision to leave
25:09 Unmeasured “product sense” is bullshit
31:00 Unschooling, we prepare our kids wrong for life
37:00 Leadership and strategic thinking
42:45 Being disciplined and vulnerable at the same time
45:30 Learning how to give good feedback

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Adam is funny, a friend, and a dad from San Francisco, and does not get any kickback for not recommending JIRA. He’s also an incredibly accomplished brain when it comes to anything Growth and Growth Leadership.

We have both a united love for actionable metrics and we talk about those that we (almost) never touch because they are not:

NPS / CAC / Burndown points and MQLs.

Timestamps:

0:00 Adam’s Introduction
03:45 The tire fire that JIRA is, Stockholm Syndrome as a Service
07:05 Notion is like a grandma’s attic
08:15 How would Adam & Leah define a useless metric
11:30 NPS at Patreon and Leah’s evolution of disgust
17:00 TrustScore at Patreon & CES at Smallpdf
20:52 The problems with CAC
27:50 Team efficiency, burndown charts
33:10 Measuring what your team does
36:00 Why Machine learning works the same way as good product teams
38:15 MQLs & Followers 

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Patrick is the real deal, he ships more than a shipyard, is vulnerable and open with what most likely makes him successful. His unbending will to build something that lasts and how it all connects together with the last step of a buyer's journey: monetization.
His personal framework on how to stay on top regardless of what the market throws at him in his day to day.

Timestamps:
01:00 Patricks Introduction
04:00 The origin of Patrick’s pricing and content
05:55 Help sells
09:40 How the perspective of what you said changes after success
14:10 Creating a culture of feedback is about being intentional
16:30 How to learn anything
21:15 Insecurities & Patrick’s Scoreboard
27:53 Impostor Syndrome and comparing yourself to others
31:20 Thinking too much about shipping without shipping anything
34:05 Patrick’s grim numbers on the market shifting, RIP acquisition
39:50 Can AI really automate all Acquisition?
48:15 How changes look like if you consider the human element and time to change anything
52:50 Tactical tips vs Behavioural change through cadence
56:50 Do you have to be broken to be hard-working? Setting up your surroundings to fit your ideal way of working.

Patrick’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickccampbell/

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! We discuss key distinctions in B2B contexts, notably between buyers and users, and individual versus team metrics. The importance of KPI design in product-led companies and why you can’t skip on this secret weapon, the critique of being in large tech corporations right now, and we explore the benefits of API-first companies in terms of retention.

Timestamps:
01:00 Sam’s Introduction
06:50 Sam’s best growth experiences to move her forward
12:00 Differentiate between buyers and users in B2B
14:45 Individual vs Team metrics
19:13 Companies quitting product-led growth
21:38 Net Dollar Retention is a metric you probably get wrong
24:00 Doing “product” in product-led vs. sales-led companies: KPI Design is a secret weapon that you can’t outsource
28:10 Uncomfortable Truths in tech, don’t be in big companies right now
34:35 Retainer and Full-Time roles feeding the content recycling machine
37:55 Using control over your calendar to battle insecurities
39:55 A lot of people depend on your decisions as a “Head of”
41:30 Context switching matters more than the number of hours you have available
45:10 API-first companies have an insane retention advantage

Sam’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-crowell-richard/

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Seasoned tech leader Ravi shares his insights on founding a business amidst AI disruption, the evolving capabilities of AI in empathy, and the challenges we faced of leadership post our careers at Microsoft. We also explore the concept of dual career ladders, some crazy pivots we both experienced as product leaders. Ravi also addresses dealing with insecurities after achieving significant career success and balancing opportunity cost with efficient time use.

Timestamps:

02:00 Ravi’s introduction
07:25 Ravi’s Origins & Gossip about Microsoft
10:30 Founding a business in a domain that is getting shaken up by AI
20:03 AI products outperform humans on empathy. What “really” matters to people
27:30 What do people get wrong about Ravi? Leading small companies with a big company resume
32:00 When you lose the possibility to micromanage everything. Tripadvisor
36:50 Opportunity sizing for initiatives, Conviction vs Healthy skepticism
44:00 IC careers vs. Manager career Dual Career Ladders
52:55 What kind of insecurities do you deal with once you have “done it all already”: opportunity cost and how to use time efficient

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! For the first time, I’m joined by 2 guests and it’s none other than Teresa Torres and Hope Gurion

We discuss the importance of leadership tied to people management and highlight the value of working from a unified knowledge base from C-level to operational teams. The conversation navigates through the realities of crises such as the 2008 financial recession and connected layoffs and how frameworks cannot replace effort or “putting in the work”. We also grapple with the dilemma of impostor syndrome versus the pressure of always being correct in business.

Timestamps:

07:50 CEO: “Our PM’s are not delivering big enough ideas”
15:00 Making cases about 
17:30 Tieing leadership to people management
20:40 Working from the same knowledge base from C-Level to operational product teams
27:00 When your company gets into trouble suddenly, the financial crisis in 2008
33:40 This is not the first recession we faced, layoffs are suddenly "
39:40 Having fewer people to manage might not be as good for your status but you definitely learn more
46:00 Thinking is hard and expensive, frameworks do not replace the work you have to put down
50:00 Impostor syndrome throughout our careers vs. needing to be right in business
57:30 Finding the one right answer, school vs. business life
62:00 Trends which Hope & Teresa are betting on: same old but changing what we learn in school

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Kieran Flanagan is one of the most valuable things I read every day on LinkedIn, his incredible ability to connect the dots when it comes to AI and Business is the reason why it will stay that way for quite some time. He delves into the 'Content Paradox' explaining how AI is transforming content creation and curation and shares intriguing insights into Hubspot's origin story and the potential role of AI as a retention tool, not just an acquisition one.

Timestamps:
01:00 Kieran’s Introduction and Background
06:35 What people get wrong about Kieran
09:00 What are you doing in Marketing if AI is about to kill it?
13:00 Conent Paradox. AI bundling and unbundling content.
19:00 Technological leaps that make people more efficient. Are knowledge workers immune to it?
21:30 Hubspots origin story
26:00 AI is maybe a retention rather than an acquisition tool
31:40 How we think about Software is changing radically
35:20 How product-led growth is dramatically getting accelerated by AI
39:50 People definitely buy from companies not just people
43:48 How Zapier tries to offer value from before AI and now after AI

Connect!

Kieran Flanagan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kieranjflanagan/
Leah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Elena Verna joins me to openly gossip about our diverse income streams: Advisory, consulting, and everything else in that word salad. We both dive into our different modes of engagement with an emphasis on what the ideal duration and conditions are for each of them.

If you ever wanted to have an inside look into how growth advising happens, this is your episode.

Timestamps:
03:00 What Elena has been up to in the last 6 months
03:50 What does being a growth advisor/consultant or solopreneur mean?
09:50 Is career optionality a strength or weakness as a candidate?
15:11 How content, advising, and full-time role play into each other
17:04 How to get your first contract?
22:59 It takes a long time for your seeds to grow, learn to seed fast and putting yourself out there including your knowledge
27:19 Leah’s modes of engagements
28:34 Elena’s modes of engagements
34:14 Acceptable durations for different modes of engagements
36:54 The first 3 months as an advisor
39:10 The case for interim positions and why Elena picks them occasionally
43:40 Interim positions and reasons why companies use them
46:55 Contractual conditions you need to set up to have a chance at advising
52:10 Monetizing your advising career too early
54:50 Being a generalist vs. a specialist, disclosing weaknesses

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! In this episode, we’re looking at how awful or delightful it is to work with your sibling.
There's a deep dive into Superhuman and Leah's disdain for email, along with the importance of creating defensible moats in product development. We elaborate on what it means to be "exceptional" and give a glimpse into Superhuman’s unique "Delight" team and its unusual structure emphasizing an oversized customer success component.

We reflect on how to attract investors for a product reliant on another product's survival. The conversation then shifts towards security vs convenience in product positioning, anchored by the founding thesis of Superhuman. We conclude it by discussing the rapid progress of underlying technology against the backdrop of regulation and how productivity tools enable more efficient utilization of time, aligning with individual aspirations. 

Timestamps:

03.00 How is it to work with a sibling?
05:25 What do people get wrong about Gaurav?
08:00 Superhuman and Leah’s Disdain for Email
11:24 Defendable moats and what your product should do
15:15 What does being “Exceptional” mean?
18:30 Superhuman’s “Delight” team
20:05 Customers in dire need
23:15 Superhuman’s unusual structure with an “oversized” customer success part
26:45 How to convince investors to invest in a product that depends on the survival of another one
33:20 Security vs convenience positioning products
35:20 The founding thesis of Superhuman
39:30 Ai as proof that people put convenience before accuracy, security
44:25 The breakneck pace of the underlying technology development vs. regulation
47:08 Productivity tools free up time to do more useful things, wherever your aspirations may lie

Connect!

Gaurav's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gvohra/
His personal page: https://www.gauravvohra.com/ 

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! I’m joined by a silicon valley legend: Dave Kellogg, EIR at Balderton Capital, independent consultant/advisor, and author of Kellblog.

We delve into the pitfalls of building a product strategy on shaky foundations and highlight anyone’s job of designing effective experiments to facilitate learning.

We speak about an inherent fear of executives missing out constantly and distinguishing between strategic and opportunistic revenue.

Why a company is not a democracy where every customer gets an equal say, and how to be cautious about the bad behaviors that can come from improper incentives.

We share insights on establishing control over finding successful customers in a sales-led growth company and the concept of product-led sales and territories.

Lastly, he addresses the challenges of understanding the inner workings of a SaaS company which usually means taking a hard look in the mirror.

Timestamps:

02:15 Dave’s introduction
07:18 Explaining Marketing / Sales to technical people
11:45 Not accepting things you don’t understand, conventional wisdom that’s not true
15:50 What do people get wrong about Dave?
17:35 Building product strategy on things that have no business to be built around & decision bias
22:40 Your job is to design a good experiment - did we learn or did we learn nothing?
25:17 A system that incentivizes to move metrics that are hard to manipulate → What is success?
34:10 C-level fear of missing out. Strategic revenue and opportunistic revenue
38:00 Your company is not a democracy where every customer gets one vote
40:40 Bad behavior driven by incentivizing people wrong.
47:15 Trying to get control over finding customers that will be successful in a sales-led growth company, product-led sales & territory
54:25 Why is it so difficult to understand what’s going on inside a SaaS company?

Connect!

Dave’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelloggdave/
Dave’s blog: https://kellblog.com/
Leah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/

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Season 2 of the ProducTea! Today with the growth wonder Shanee Ben-Zur, her unconventional career path into senior leadership at top brands like DropBox, NVIDIA, Crunchbase, and Salesforce, and her honest account for what happened to make her what she is today.
A compassionate C-level that says things as they are. We talk about how an IPO feels. Equity, reality, and the perception of senior leadership don’t always line up. And the fastest way how to mess things up when you start to lead people.

Timestamps:

03:20 What do people get wrong about Shanee
5:45 The IPO story from Dropbox from the inside
12:35 Equity: Understand how it works and keep asking until you do
15:45 The brutal reality vs Imagination of senior leadership positions
21:50 Operative vs Management vs Advising, when people stop questioning
24:20 Obstacles and difficulties in an atypical career in tech
32:30 How to learn trusting yourself to be a senior leader
40:40 Bringing growth and measurability into any company and all the difficulty that entails
44:55 You are not talking enough about first principles
48:13 Underestimating how critique and compliments work
51:30 Trends Shanee believes in, efficiency in the long-term vs short-term hacks

Shanee’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sbenzur/
Leah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

Alexa Grabell shares honest perspectives on why she recommends every senior leader to have a product coach and how she accidentally ended up being a founder of a VC-backed gig to drive efficiency in go-to-market.

Timestamps:

2:40 What do people get wrong about Alexa? Confusing being cheery with not being serious

5:50 You lead a team, not a family

11:20 The future of GTM is data-driven and hyper-personalized

15:35 Getting thicker skin after getting rejected all the time

17:30 Hiring people too fast for what you have

18:50 Accidental ways of landing in a VC-backed company as a founder

22:00 You have to believe in what you do more than anyone else

26:30 Insecurities in business and executive coaching

31:00 The unusual merits of “being experienced”

35:30 The leverage of coaching and brutally honest feedback

39:50 Intentional community building to drive your business and the future of Go to Market

43:15 Hubspot and its powerful product and community building

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

Benjamin Lamson had a great exit and no more sleep due to having a baby at home. His insecurities with rising success, how he manages to deal with it day by day, and how Jobs-to-be-done can be brought into an early-stage company.

A great conversation with a sales leader turned product-led growth lover!

Timestamps:

05:00 Are you only a real salesperson if you have a gong at home that you ring after closing a deal?
07:20 Product-led Sales
10:30 Should we give people money for closing contracts in early-stage companies?
14:22 Early-stage hire mistakes in the past
18:00 Everyone becomes more efficient and cross-functional, breaking down those silos, what about big companies?
26:05 What is wrong with our startup scene? Founders accepted valuations that were ridiculous.
33:15 Compassion as a founder towards other entrepreneurs’ loneliness.
38:20 Jobs to be done in startups on a shoestring budget
47:15 Being extremely specific about your ideal customer and applying it to business decisions
49:35 Initial price points for a company offering
54:40 Insecurities and Impostor Syndrome
64:40 AI will impact every product.

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

This episode is very difficult to summarize, we touch on highly tactical methods on how to combine offline and online methods to drive communities. Why they are key to breaking into difficult markets and how Lobo did it in detail.

The first half of the podcast is an inspiring origin story from Lobo from the slums he came from to the incredibly successful community expert, author, and 0 to-1 genius who almost lost everything because he couldn’t balance business with his family.

In the 2nd half, we talk about highly tactical methods on how to combine offline and online to light a growth fire that goes out of control.

It’s an absolute masterclass of how to understand community-led acquisition and why your love and relentless understanding of the customer’s problems will beat any other framework.

Timestamps:
02:00 Lloyed’s Origin Story, Growing up in the Slums and a War
10:45 How we have to pretend that we’re all crushing it - how Lobo doesn’t play that game and how it haunts him
16:50 When your mother asks you “Was your upbringing not good?” and how it ignited the spark behind Lobo’s drive.
22:00 Getting priorities wrong between your business and your family.
27:00 If you don’t do the hard things and do so without having strong opinions you blend in with the status quo and have no chance of being exceptional
32:40 Authenticity is the only thing selling in a market that’s driven by word of mouth and trust through the opinions of others
35:35 Scaling a culture to more people as a senior leader to fuel your growth
42:00 Turning customers into evangelists beyond your organization by betting on a big market in a contrarian way 🔥🔥🔥🔥
51:45 How to figure out your ideal customer profile from an audience’s perspective. Market size, propensity, and how to get access to it in detail.
55:25 Using Sales as Glorified Community Managers… brokers of resources.
57:10 Shutting down a conference with 60 confirmed speakers and how to salvage it into gold
61:30 The common thing between ideas that gain traction.
64:00 The secrets you give away for free need to be uncomfortable to give away.

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

I followed David’s succinct learnings as a Gartner Analyst around PLG for quite some time and you’ll get to know why. He has a way with words. Talking about PLG in a B2B context usually lacks nuance and tactical tips.

Not with David, we touched on so many different topics from interactive demos to the most common misconceptions when thinking about PLG and ultimately how to marry it to your sales department.

How you can think about ungating your product without giving everything away for free?

Timestamps:

05:05 Being demanding in business while having a calm outside
07:05 When a company loses its sense of urgency
11:45 Product-led Sales: Many companies realize “We need sales.” or “We need PLG”, and one group has it much harder than the other
17:15 Product-led growth is not a one-size-fits-all thing.
19:25 Why getting attention in a commoditized market with sales-led growth is starting with a disadvantage
20:35 The most common misconceptions around PLG for Sales-led businesses
24:20 Pricing and packaging have to change if you go to a land and expand motion like product-led growth
27:35 Should I put my pricing up or not? Yes. And much more than that. Ungating for B2B
32:40 Interactive demos done right: Embedding an abstraction of your product
36:15 Why enterprise accounts don’t care about time but usage and why you cannot get this wrong in B2B
39:05 “Why does my sales cycle take so long, how do I move them faster?”
42:05 Tearing down Silos in data and customer understanding

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

Carilu’s wheelhouse starts where mine usually begins to end. She’s an accomplished advisor to big-scale hypergrowth companies and has a way with words. How do we think of problems at different stages? How do we set ourselves up so we have a chance of experiencing different stages if nobody hires us for them? Why is storytelling so important regardless of the function you work in?

Timestamps:
08:20 Talking yourself into things you’re not qualified for
11:35 How everyone is cooking with water, while pattern recognition is what experience brings
15:25 Changing sizes of business and how they affect your role and understanding of others
20:24 Common signs that a company’s methods change from being scrappy to process-oriented
27:30 The process of advising at scale
38:57 Learning at Scale by joining a scaling company on purpose
41:05 Founders always start with Marketing and storytellers
44:40 Why and how to build relationships in companies
48:05 Insecurities as a senior leader - using them as fuel instead of obstacles

Connect!
Carliu’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hypergrowth-advisor/

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Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

Mike used to be my manager and quickly became one of my most important mentors through the years. In this very personal episode with a lot of inside stories, we talk about it all. From experiences at Smallpdf where rapid scaling pains set in and how we experienced them from the perspective of the CPO - him, and me - the core product.

Also: the concept of first principles thinking: Nokia’s prescient but uncapitalized predictions of smartphones.
How to localize products and explore personal growth strategies, the importance of connecting wisdom, managing self-expectations, and how to move on from having chips on your shoulder.

Timestamps:
06:30 Reinventing yourself and companies when you hit a specific size
10:30 Our journey at Smallpdf, everything burns and scales at the same time
15:55 First principles thinking is hard to learn but necessary so you can create your own frameworks.
22:14 Nokia predicted the iPhone and Android before they happened. And it didn’t help them.
26:50 Why Product-led Growth is not the same problem in B2B as it is in B2C
29:40 Aligning Value capture with the value you create. Pricing at Typeform
32:15 Lokalise and getting shaken up by the current AI technology disruption when localizing your product in different markets
42:20 How to learn and grow personally while thinking “I don’t belong here
49:43 Having the ability to connect wisdom instead of learning everything yourself
57:53 We get angry at things because we don’t match our own expectations
62:25 Having a chip on your shoulder… and moving on from it.
67:45 Waiting too long to reward yourself for specific achievements.

Connect!

Mike’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pilawski/
Leah’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/

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This episode gave me a lot of peace of mind. Intercom is dealing with the exact same problems that we all have when building around and with AI.

Estimations are impossible and things that are feeling impossible are possible the day after. Brian sat together with me to talk about it all including Intercom’s coming-of-age story and how they look at customer service through this new distorting lense of AI and Machine learning that is rocking our boat.

It’s a great learning piece on anything product and leadership.

Season 3 of the ProducTea: We spill the tea on how to Go to Market through Product-led Sales and Product-led Growth in B2B and the realities of senior leadership.

Timestamps:
06:30 What makes Intercom so special, and why is good customer service so difficult?
11:50 Tieing business and technology together, while AI is making quantum leaps from unuseable to “this is really good”
18:19 We are all working in a playground of opportunities that is very hard to get under predictable control
25:30 I have no idea how long this entire project might take. Days or months. No idea
31:00 Unpredictability of your output in product, you only know when you have it
36:00 Outcome-driven goals when outcomes are impossible to define?
44:00 How to build an innovative product inside a large organization by creating an artificial micro-market
52:30 We still don’t know exactly what AI displaces and it won’t. Support vs. Replacement and the resulting uncertainty.

Brians’ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-d-2450192/
Brians' Twitter: https://twitter.com/brian_donohue

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Andrew Davies, CMO at Paddle, on the latest learnings on monetization and pricing. A topic that is still underserved because almost no one has good, conclusive data about it. Paddle does, and Andrew is sharing a lot of actionable advice on:

- Willingness to pay
- Changing monetization often
- How to not incentivize anyone the wrong way

One of my favorite episodes to date!

Timestamps:
06:20 Insights from the latest pricing report, analyzing outliers that “make it”

09:00 Having access to one of the biggest data stacks about monetization and how Paddle structured itself as a PLG business step-by-step

12:45 How to figure out how much you should charge for your product?

19:45 How to figure out “willingness to pay”. Cuddling with Chaos

24:00 Between Acquisition, Retention, and Monetization…  Few companies are getting pricing right. Those that change it often have an 82% better ARPU

30:40 How do you get sales on board to play along to be okay with changing monetization

36:00 “We make sure there is no incentive for anyone in the company to get a customer on the phone over self-serving, including sales”

40:55 Getting payment methods, currency, and regional acceptance right.

44:30 We are moving away from the “VC funded or dead” dream.

50:15 What does it feel like to be really “successful” and not to spiral “getting there”

54:00 Having no clue what you are doing is an opportunity, not a weakness to cover

58:45 Trends: Customers want everything faster and cheaper.

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Adam Fishman and I elaborate on how we look at the inevitable yearly planning exercises from an operative and leadership perspective.

How to do a rolling planning instead of doing the depressing exercise of wasting everyone’s time for a month at the end of each year:

• Managing risks and the human component in planning
• The typical mistakes you should avoid
• What to do if you don’t agree with a company's direction

Timestamps:

04:20 Leah’s take: The operator’s perspective of yearly planning, fuzzy road mapping

07:30 Adam’s take: Conceptual thinking about planning, especially in the absence of a concrete strategy

13:20 Yearly planning and failures that are likely to happen

19:25 Resource planning and not taking care of “people”

23:15 Critical mistakes in planning

28:30 Spend some time to understand “what are your direct manager’s goals”, and overcommunicate as a manger

33:15 Calendar structure of annual planning when you own parts or the entire process

39:10 What do you do if you don’t agree with the company’s strategy?

42:50 30-60-90 day plan on how to get away from a company

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Jason Fried, Co-founder and CEO of 37signals (Basecamp with a valuation of 100 billion, no really ;D), is one of the most positive, successful, forward-looking people that I got to know. He doesn’t care about retros and dwelling on the past and constantly pulls forward without looking too much at what others might think.

This amazing episode ended up being a look into the mind of a successful contrarian who appreciates the beauty of simplicity in business.

* Don’t overcomplicate decisions in business

* Being confidently wrong about reality is easy when there is no reality to check it against

* We’re doing more and more of what we don’t necessarily need

Timestamps:

06:00 Having a public opinion on things that are not mainstream even if it’s uncomfortable.

09:00 Figuring out yourself, and who you really are is never done.

12:00 Don’t overcomplicate it, there are fewer wrong or right decisions than you think. Decide and run with it.

17:45 Double down on whatever works, don’t do post-mortems, retros…

20:55 Is developing faster and faster really what we need?

28:15 Culture and bad goal setting

36:33 Most decisions are based on intuition

46:25 Customers are always trying to make progress and that won’t change

49:30 VC money vs. Bootstrapping


Jason Fried’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/

Jasons Blog: https://world.hey.com/jason

37Signals.com: https://37signals.com/

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

#productledgrowth

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John Cutler is the best systems thinker I know. Whenever we talk, there’s a beautiful meta-analysis around systems happening. Why do we work the way we do? Why can we not figure out how to run businesses efficiently if we do it so often?

• Why do inexperienced, brilliant people constantly get into trouble, and how do they get out of it?
• Individual vs. team habits
• How much of our decisions is gut vs. objectivity
• Leadership porn and its connected biases

Timestamps:
6:50 How people throw words like “efficiency” and “productivity” around and do not understand them

13:25 Product operations is thinking about what can remain and what has to go in the future. 

19:50 Growing pains vs. normal pains. Why do young, smart people constantly get into really bad situations with their businesses?

25:05 Experts will always tell you that things are simple. Why tips on LinkedIn don’t work but are still popular.

30:15 How to be consistent.

38:00 The unbeautiful side of establishing habits. Individual vs. team habits

50:20 Leadership “porn”, why you should not search for broken components in organizations. Going broad first before specific.

John’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnpcutler/

Johns Blog: https://cutlefish.substack.com/

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A Journey I’m in the middle of as well: How to transition from senior leadership to taking care of yourself to the moment where you enter again.

Casey Winters, ex-CPO Eventbrite, walks through the entire journey and how he thinks about our current markets; our technology is drastically changing while the new distribution channels have not developed yet.
Why he is waiting before making high-conviction bets for his career in 2023

Timestamps:

08:10 Why Casey is stressed out and scared of misalignment

13:40 When the company heads in a direction where you don’t see your strengths as a senior leader, but it’s your job to see them through

20:12 This company strategy looks like one I’m not part of. How open should I be with my CEO?

28:00 Burning bridges on your way out by overthinking about negotiation leverage

31:15 Shifting your day to suddenly taking care of your OKRs: physical health and fitness

38:15 What deserves the best hours of your day?

42:00 How to plan the inevitable return to work: Waiting for the right moment, how to think like an investor about your career.

48:10 You don’t have to “understand” everything. But you’ll know when you know enough: technology is changing now, and distribution will change later.

53:40 Paid advertising and, with it, SEO getting pressure because of the current technology shift. Do consumer platforms make money from advertising or subscriptions in the future? It will be WILD.

62:20 Short tenures: people want to understand the decisions you made in your career, not just how long they were.

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

#productledgrowth

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Chris Tottman and Richard Blundell joined me for a fantastic conversation about how they think from their own operators’ perspective when it comes to investing in successful businesses and their people.

Why you should not talk to investors who never went through the personal pain of failing and why it most of the time comes down to the basics of running a successful business:

• Being obsessed with customers in a narrow market
• Product Market Fit is not just having a great product in a great market but also communicating it where your customers are

Timestamps:

11:00 The origin story of Notion VC, a founder/operator-led fund. An aggregator of fuckups and occasional successes

17:10 Why do we keep making the same mistakes in business?

27:00 Why anyone invests in a business. Metrics to evaluate the present, personality to see the future

33:30 Why should anyone listen to your pitch? When chaos is not avoidable with success

45:20 Are you failing because your market is too big or too small? Dangers of going too broad with your ICPs

53:50 Markets are not just what people want but where they communicate and recommend

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Summary

Melissa Kwan, CEO of eWebinar and serial bootstrapper, discusses the challenges and benefits of bootstrapping a business versus seeking venture capital funding. She is the poster child for urging founders to focus on real customer feedback and paying customers without loading up on VC problems. 

We discuss the importance of understanding the customer, personal goals and ambitions, the challenges of building and scaling a product, defining success and financial goals, the desire for financial independence, determining the financial number to sleep well, and the value of personal branding and trust.

Takeaways

• Bootstrapping is a lifestyle choice that offers freedom and control over the direction of a business. At the same time, venture capital funding commits a company to a venture-scale outcome and a different lifestyle.
• The future of tech startups lies in vertical SaaS businesses and smaller, niche solutions that cater to specific markets.
• Why demo calls and salespeople are becoming less necessary as self-serve options and efficient onboarding processes become more prevalent.
• Determining the financial number needed to sleep well varies for each individual.
• Personal branding and trust are valuable assets for entrepreneurs.
• Writing and building an audience can lead to new opportunities and connections.

Timestamps

00:00 The Lifestyle Choice of Bootstrapping vs. VC Funding

05:17 The Trajectory of eWebinar's Growth

09:31 The Challenges of VC Funding and the Importance of Profitability

13:51 The Difference Between Media Validation and Market Validation

19:35 The Rise of Vertical SaaS and Lifestyle Businesses

25:46 The Importance of Analyzing Past Behavior to Predict Future Behavior

32:00 The Problem with Demo Calls and the Shift Towards Self-Serve

37:06 Determining Pricing and the Value of Respecting Customer's Time

45:27 Understanding the Importance of Knowing the Customer

46:25 The Challenges of Building and Scaling a Product

47:24 Defining Success and Financial Goals

48:19 The Desire for Financial Independence

50:38 Determining the Financial Number to Sleep Well

55:41 The Value of Personal Branding and Trust

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Jeff Gothelf, one of the most critical voices around OKRs and being outcome-driven, sat down with me for an hour-long amazing conversation:
We touch on why using OKRS is useless if you can’t admit when you are wrong and be open to feedback from your teams.

How do you set outcome-driven goals for exploratory research and the role of humility in organizational success? Why shipping something does not mean you’re adding value.
Finally, we discuss common failure points in organizations and the future of impactful startups.

Takeaways

• Executives should practice humility and accountability, admitting when they are wrong proactively.
• Setting outcome-driven goals for exploratory research helps determine the value and feasibility of new ideas.
• Common failure points in organizations include a lack of humility, a failure to prioritize the customer, and an overemphasis on the next hottest thing.

Timestamps

00:00 The Power of Humility and Accountability

13:06 The Importance of Putting the Customer First

19:08 Avoiding the Overuse of AI

25:46 Setting Outcome-Driven Goals for Exploratory Research

32:31 The Role of Humility in Organizational Success

43:39 Common Failure Points in Organizations

45:24 The Future of Impactful Startups

Shownotes

Jeff Gothelf: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gothelf/

Jeff’s Website: https://jeffgothelf.com/

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Why is ruthless focus the most important skill in B2B, and why is it so hard to get right? 

As the CEO of a banking service that focuses on the impact of cashflow mismanagement on small businesses, he knows what it means when people only focus on what’s fun to them in a business and the price they pay for that.

We talked about the decision to seek VC funding and how he built resilience and dealt with negative emotions in tough times. What it means to him to deliver more value than just being a banking app by building out new channels like a podcast.

Takeaways

• Ruthless prioritization is crucial for productivity and success.
• Cashflow mismanagement is a major problem for small businesses.
• Recognize that negative emotions often feel worse and last longer than they are.
• Creating valuable content and delivering practical knowledge can help businesses establish trust and attract customers.
• Focus on quality rather than quantity in marketing to ensure relevance and engagement.

Timestamps

03:18 The Problem of Cashflow Illiteracy in Small Businesses
07:58 The Habit of Writing Down Priorities and ruthless prioritization
15:03 Mismanagement of unfun tasks in Small Businesses
19:37 The Challenges of Financial Management in Early Stages
23:08 The Decision to Seek VC Funding
32:34 The Importance of Effort and Determination
38:01 The Problem of Comparing Self to Others
42:09 Balancing Stressful Situations
46:27 Managing Negative Emotions
48:58 Starting a Podcast and delivering extended value to customers
56:36 Quality over Quantity in Marketing

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Summary

Peter Walker, Head of Data Insights at Carta discusses with me various aspects of startup funding and investment. We explore the value of small angel investments, the obscurity of startup funding letters, the selectivity of startup advisors, and the potential of angel investments as marketing assets.
We also touch on the excitement for the future of startups, the impact of accelerators and venture studios, and the importance of distribution and growth and whether a downround really is such a bad thing.

Takeaways

• There is a growing trend of companies exploring non-VC growth paths and aiming to achieve venture-scale outcomes without raising additional funding.
• The use of startup funding letters, such as Series A and Series B, can obscure the wide variation in funding amounts and create unnecessary pressure for founders.
• Angel investments can serve as marketing assets for startups, as investors with a strong brand can enhance a company's image.
• The current generation of startups is building on a higher foundation of knowledge and asking different questions compared to previous years.

Chapters

13:35 The Shift Towards Non-VC Growth Paths

25:24 The Impact of Liquidation Preferences and Equity Education

43:52 The Value of Small Angel Investments

44:50 The Obscurity of Startup Funding Letters

46:14 Angel Investments as Marketing Assets

48:02 Excitement for the Future of Startups, Accelerators and Venture Studios

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Summary

Jamie Gier, - CMO at DexCare and former Director of Product Marketing at Microsoft - and I talk about the importance of understanding the customer and the challenges of marketing in regulated industries. We also touch on the process of learning marketing, the concept of account-based marketing in B2B, and how to connect it to revenue through ROI cases for our customers. The conversation concludes with a focus on relevant outreach and communication concepts with the aid of AI.

Takeaways

Good Marketing plays a strategic role in product development, informing product strategy and ensuring a unified voice in the marketplace.

Marketing in regulated industries, such as healthcare, requires balancing compliance with innovation and user experience.

Learning marketing involves understanding the customer, creating value, and staying up to date with industry trends.

Account-based marketing in B2B involves aligning with sales, understanding ideal client profiles, and deploying the right sales and marketing motions. Effective processes and personalization are crucial in marketing and sales.

Making the ROI case for customers from Marketing is essential.

Chapters

06:42 The Importance of Personal Board of Directors
12:18 Measuring Marketing Impact
16:29 The Role of Marketing in Product Development
22:02 The Challenges of Marketing in Regulated Industries
38:14 Learning Marketing and Creating Value
45:38 Account-Based Marketing in B2B
47:30 Effective Processes and Personalization that doesn't feel artificial
49:17 Making the ROI Case through Account-based Marketing



My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

#productledgrowth

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Julie Zhuo, Co-Founder @ Sundial, Author of THE MAKING OF A MANAGER, ex-VP Design @ FB

Summary
Intuition and hiring is an uncomfortable topic. We should be rational, have reasons for why we choose to work with someone or not. When should we trust our gut feeling? When is it time to step back and say, no. I go with the hard facts?

In the end it’s all about building an honest relationship as a leader with our peers and what kind of person you want to be. Afterall, we spend a huge time with our peers, even if work is not our main focus in life.

We explore the journey of personal growth and learning, the challenges and strengths of introversion and extroversion, and the significance of choosing battles and seeking feedback.

How can we understand ourselfes better and become the inspiring leaders that we wish we had in our life when we were younger?

Takeaways

• Intuition and logic are both valuable in decision-making, and it is important to know when to choose which one.
• We don’t have to be leaders by embracing the bad stereotypes from the past.
• Clear communication and honesty are essential in building strong relationships.
• Taking risks and embracing vulnerability will lead to personal growth and learning.

Chapters

05:01 The Power of Clear Communication

07:13 Balancing Simplicity and Complexity in Writing

08:12 The Importance of Honesty in Relationships

14:25 The Wisdom of Intuition and Logic

23:00 Building Honest and Deep Relationships with your peers

26:17 Personal Growth and Learning

29:32 Navigating Introversion and Extroversion

32:59 Overcoming Fear and Embracing Authenticity

38:05 Inspiring Others and Building Meaningful Relationships

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Casey Hill is a Senior Growth Manager at ActiveCampaign, Institutional Consultant, and Founder. More importantly, he’s incredibly actionable and smart on LinkedIn around B2B Email channels, and that’s why I wanted to have him on the podcast.

Summary

We talk about how to approach Email, how to use it from the ground up to drive meaningful business and how to measure it. How to balance different channels, such as influencers, podcasts, and newsletters.

What IS good content and should you repurpose it? What is the difference between a Short-term and long-term goal, when to drop money into Ads vs. the quality of the content?

We talk about engagement metrics and validation points, how to encourage an open structure for content posting, tracking engagement metrics and pipeline opportunities, the long-term play and how to trust in a B2B content strategy, separating reporting for different content types, gathering information and filtering leads, and choosing the most valuable question to ask.

Takeaways

• Email marketing is still a valuable channel for demand generation despite the flood of automation and AI, but it requires targeted goals and effective use.
• Create good content that is valuable to a specific audience and consider repurposing content to maximize impact.
• Set short-term and long-term goals for growth, and use benchmarks to guide your strategies.
• Gating content in newsletters should be done sparingly, as building trust and showcasing content upfront are more important than gathering low-intent emails.
• Separate reporting for different content types to accurately evaluate performance.

Chapters

04:22 The Importance of Email in Demand Generation

10:56 Creating Good Content for a Specific Audience

13:38 Repurposing Content and Optimizing Channels

16:29 Short-Term and Long-Term Goals for Growth

21:46 Setting Targets and Benchmarks for Growth

24:06 Importance of Quality and Amplification in Newsletters

26:27 Gating Content in Newsletters

29:10 Differentiating Friction Based on Buying Intent

30:38 The Five Degrees of Content

35:18 Engagement Metrics and Validation Points

39:33 Tracking Engagement Metrics and Pipeline Opportunities

40:28 Long-Term Play and Trust in B2B Content Strategy

41:26 Separating Reporting for Different Content Types

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Adam Robinson, CEO of Retention.com & RB2B, is the CEO who builds in public on LinkedIn and is crushing it by discovering the power of product-led growth as he is doing it. He’s very specific about what works and what doesn’t and how he got started.

He explains the power of organic reach through LinkedIn and building a personal brand through social media, particularly LinkedIn, and how important it is to not be too rigid in your assumptions. Adam shares his experience with video content and its impact on building trust and affinity with his audience to sell and scale an impressive B2B product-led flywheel.

We talk about the concept of freemium product-led growth (PLG), the value of free users, and why it’s worth it to keep them around, even if they never buy.

Takeaways

• Building a personal brand through organic reach on social media platforms like LinkedIn can create trust and affinity with the audience, especially in B2B.
• Video content allows for a richer and more dynamic connection with the audience, enhancing the impact of your brand.
• Retaining free users is valuable for organic distribution and building domain authority.
• The combination of AI and influencer-type founders can enable bootstrapped startups to scale and compete with larger companies. We are just at the beginning.
• Point solution products with a massive free offer and a focus on viral expansion can disrupt traditional SaaS models.

Sound Bites

• "I want to challenge myself to just keep adding value to the paid plan until we get decent conversion rates instead of taking value away from the free one."
• "I think video builds an affinity for you in a way that nothing else can because people are sitting there, they're observing your mannerisms and the way that you say things and like the sound of your voice and everything."
• "No user is a free user. You get something from everyone."

Chapters

02:16 The Impact of Video Content on Building Trust and Affinity

08:45 Understanding Customer Churn and Market Dynamics

23:38 The Value of Offering a Free Product to Build Brand Presence

24:07 Freemium PLG and the Actual Value of Free Users

25:37 What can and should you “automate” about personal connections?

33:00 The Importance of Retaining Free Users

35:26 The Future of AI and Bootstrapping, hyper-efficiency

Adam's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/retentionadam/

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Anthony Pierry, partner at FletchPMM, focuses on messaging for early-stage B2B SaaS startups, and he brought a lot of actionable knowledge on how to do it right to the ProducTea.

Summary
I talk with Anthony about how to focus and narrow down your target audience and how to communicate it through your value proposition. How do we cross the chasm between the early-stage value proposition and the bigger market we want to reach?

How do we use qualitative feedback in these high-risk and low-data decisions to figure out whether we should focus on features vs. outcomes when we talk to our customers?

Takeaways
Founders should narrow down their target audience and focus on specific use cases to effectively communicate their value proposition.

Copying the messaging of larger companies may not be effective for startups, as they have different levels of risk and value propositions.

Startups have an advantage as flexible specialists, offering solutions that larger enterprises cannot provide.

Qualitative feedback and testing are essential to ensure that the messaging resonates with customers.

A balanced approach is needed in B2B marketing between both features and outcomes.

Sound Bites
"The hypothesis can't be, we serve all industries for every use case. That's just not going to cut it as an early stage company."

"Be temporarily narrow. Just go for the next three to four months, but have your tracking in place, please. Narrow down for three months, see what happens."


Chapters

06:16 Finding the Right Messaging and Positioning
12:20 Having an Iterative Process of Finding, Messaging and Positioning
28:21 Reducing Risk through Product-Led Growth (PLG) in Positioning Experiments
34:54 How to optimize your Positioning in detail, features vs outcomes

Anthony’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/
My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Summary

The conversation with Mike Weir, former CRO of G2, focused on reducing churn and driving expansion revenue.

At G2, they used a churn model with 14 highly correlated variables to identify at-risk customers and prioritize actions for the customer success team. We also discussed the importance of product and marketing in customer education and engagement and how to align sales, customer success, product, and marketing in a product-led growth (PLG) organization.

The discussion also touches on the role of compensation plans in driving the right behaviors and the importance of measuring and rewarding actions that correlate to long-term revenue and whether founders should do sales and for how long.


Takeaways
A churn model with highly correlated variables can help identify at-risk customers and prioritize actions for the customer success team.

Compensation plans should reward behaviors that correlate to long-term revenue, even if they don't directly generate revenue.

Product teams play a vital role in supporting sales efforts and providing valuable data.

Founders should stay involved in sales for as long as possible to refine their understanding of the market and product-market fit.


Sound Bites

"You got a customer that's kind of like half in the boat, half in the water."

"Expansion is the best way to fight against churn."

"If they're already trusting G2, then why not use that G2 third party validated content in that direct conversation when you get them engaging with your marketing materials or in a direct meeting with you."


Chapters
00:00 Profile Completeness and Engagement
11:08 Using a Churn Model
30:41 Aligning Sales, Customer Success, Product, and Marketing
39:36 Measuring Handraisers and Sales Calls
48:15 The Role of Founders in Sales
57:24 Incentivizing Actions that Drive Long-Term Revenue

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube

Motivation, forming habits, managing time, and why it’s important to know how much you enjoy solving problems with Jason Fried.

Jason is really special to me and a 2nd time guest. Whenever we go at it, there are two worlds clashing in the best way possible. We are both never content with traditions and challenge the status quo; we just often disagree on how to challenge them while we agree on the first principles behind it all.

Our fight about calendars and time management is one of my favorite moments in the entire history of my podcast.

Takeaways

Real-world experience is the best way to learn and develop skills.

Consistency and finding what works for you individually are key to forming habits.

Calendars can be a useful tool for managing time, but it is important to protect one's time and not let others have too much control over it.

New employees at 37 Signals gain knowledge about the market and customers over time rather than being overwhelmed with information upfront.

Metrics should be used in conjunction with observation and intuition to make informed decisions.


Sound Bites
"The best way to learn is to do the work."

"If I'm putting something off for a long time, it's probably because I'm not motivated to get it done."

"The people you hire are pretty much your most important decisions you're going to make in any business ever essentially."

"At the one year point, we have to basically hire you again. This is how we think about it internally."


Chapters
02:02 Understanding and Harnessing Motivation
04:18 The Importance of Making the Right Hiring Decisions
06:16 Forming Habits: Consistency and Finding What Works
16:31 Managing Time: The Role of Calendars and Protecting Your Time
35:15 The Right Size for a Company vs Scaling
55:09 Measuring Subjective Factors in Product Development
58:53 Using Metrics and Intuition to Make Informed Decisions

Jason’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/
Jason’s Blog: https://world.hey.com/jason

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Summary

Chess.com has grown from being a simple chess service to a thriving 150 million ARR business. The company has focused on making chess accessible to everyone through services around a product that hasn’t changed in centuries.

We touch on the challenges of scaling a company and the role of titles and leadership in an organization and how many times Erik wanted to give up in the process.

Erik talks about the need for passion and love for the product, and the importance of hiring people who align with the company's mission.


Takeaways

Chess.com has expanded its user base beyond the chess community by making chess accessible to everyone instead of just pros.

Titles should not be the focus, and it's more important to hire people who are passionate and aligned with the company's mission more than anything else

Finding a balance between managing the company and staying involved in the product is key for being a CEO at a scale of 500 people and more.


Sound Bites

"Anyone can have a relationship with chess. It doesn't have to be old white guys in suits. It can be all genders, all ages, all races, all countries, all intellectual capacities. Chess is for everyone."

"Chess.com could not only serve the community, but we could grow the game and change the definition of who identifies as a chess player."

"Our next phase as a company is to be an engagement-focused business and drive revenue to invest in building the game and driving cooler media."

"Making money is just the fuel for the mission"


Chapters

15:39 Expanding the Chess Community

30:08 The Role of Growth Teams in Retention and Value Creation

37:03 Understanding User Cohorts and Behavior Tracking

39:21 Driving Revenue Growth Through Churn Analysis

41:29 The Role of Revenue in the Company's Mission

45:02 Using Metrics to Drive Product Improvement

54:04 The Challenges of CEO Responsibilities

01:02:32 Separating Leadership and Management Roles


My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Summary

Burnout and the pursuit of external validation in tech. 

The pressure to constantly achieve and the belief that success will bring happiness and fulfillment is driving some of us into ruin. It almost did with Andy Johns, he was never more successful and unhappier in his life until he his body hit the reset switch.

Top companies, top jobs, top titles. Achieve, achieve, achieve. And yet it’s never enough… A lot of us are chasing external validation so we don’t have to deal with and accept ourselves.

Takeaways

• The tech industry, with its emphasis on high performance and success, often perpetuates the cycle of burnout.
• Removing the masks we wear and being vulnerable with others is important for personal growth.
• Letting out suppressed emotions and desires is a crucial step towards healing and finding our true selves.

Sound Bites

• "The human superpower is the ability to imagine things that aren't real."
• "Not everyone who's succeeding, at least on paper, is doing as well on the inside as they are on the outside."
• "I was seeking something external to myself that would make me feel lovable, whole, and complete."

Chapters

03:42 The Pressure to Achieve and the Illusion of Happiness

09:56 The Importance of Self-Love and Addressing Traumas

15:45 The Tech Industry and the Cycle of Burnout

33:42 The Limitations of Free Will

37:35 Losing Touch with Our Authentic Selves

42:52 Strength in Vulnerability

57:03 Regretting the Delay in Self-Discovery

01:02:11 Depression as a Result of Suppression

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Summary

Jam.dev created a tool called Jam that helps product managers and engineers communicate and debug bugs more effectively. The company has grown to over 100,000 users and has fixed more than 2 million bugs.

They have adopted a unique approach to marketing, prioritizing community building and sharing their journey as builders. The company uses an R&D framework to evaluate and measure the success of their marketing initiatives.

I’m talking with Dany Grant about why it’s not just optional to be close to users in a product-led growth startup and why in-person interactions might matter more than you think.

Takeaways

• Jam.dev prioritizes community building and sharing their journey as builders to connect with their target audience.
• They use an R&D framework to evaluate and measure the success of their marketing efforts. 

Sound Bites

• "When you're a PLG company, the thing that's existential is are you giving value to your users."
• "We sometimes have this really weird thing with PLG companies that we just do not know who we're talking to because we do not foster this kind of real-life connection."
• "Even if we do not generate leads and money from the actual events, you kind of still do because you get information about who it is that is buying your stuff."

Chapters

03:51 Innovative Bug Reporting and Communication

08:13 Marketing Strategies: In-Person Events and Social Media

23:58 Being Close to Users in a PLG Startup

26:30 Understanding User Connections in PLG

27:54 Gaining Insights from Events and User Interactions

31:12 Struggles with Identifying the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)

33:30 Onboarding Larger Companies through Smaller Teams

38:13 The Journey of Building a Startup and Team Growth

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Summary

I talked with the amazing Andrew Ettinger from Appen about community-led growth in enterprise sales, the importance of cross-functional understanding, and the transformation of content and community in the sales process. 

We are also diving into the impact of AI on the industry and the need for cross-functional understanding and collaboration.

Takeaways

• Cross-functional understanding and collaboration between CROs, CPOs, and other leaders is crucial for successful sales strategies.
• The evolving role of lead scoring and product usage in sales
• The changing nature of sales and product management in the era of AI and automation

Sound Bites

• "Fundamentally, it doesn't matter what you sell. The way in which you need to generate demand is by building out content and value added interactions with the personas that your product or service can enable them to have a 10X better life."
• "If you provide enough high value and relevant content, what you're actually going to find is your form fills get much more detailed about the project."
• "We actually want to talk to all of these people because we learn and we wind up actually doing some projects, even at cost."

Chapters

00:00 Navigating the Challenges of Closing Deals in Modern Sales

05:23 The Role of Community-Led Growth in Enterprise Sales

08:12 Cross-Functional Understanding and Collaboration in Sales Strategies

16:30 Understanding Product-Market Fit in Modern Sales

26:29 The Impact of Data on Sales and Lead Generation

29:43 Evolving Role of Lead Scoring and Product Usage in Sales

31:33 Challenges and Opportunities of Inbound Leads and PLG

32:58 The Importance of Firmographics and Product Usage in Separating Leads

34:21 The Changing Nature of Sales and Product Management in the Era of AI and Automation

42:31 The Need for Cross-Functional Understanding and Collaboration in the Industry

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Dennis R. Mortensen is a serial entrepreneur and the founder of LaunchBrightly, which makes money by automating the most annoying things in our work lives (through AI).

We talk about why it’s important to own your own data set for competitive advantage and the misconception that successful entrepreneurs should become investors. Dennis refuses to do anything else other than focussing on his startups. No boards, no investing, just focus.

We conclude with a discussion on the future of user interfaces and the potential for voice-first products.

Takeaways

Owning your own data set is the only way to stay in business

Successful entrepreneurs are not obligated to become investors; they can continue to jump into the next startup

Genuinely hating a problem is the number one reason for motivation and success in solving it.

The future of user interfaces is uncertain, but voice-first products and more intelligent assistants are expected.


Sound Bites

"There is this belief, which I hate, that once you've had a little bit of success, say you make a startup, you get to the end, you make a few monies, you kind of won in that particular game, then you're supposed to become an investor, angel investor, something in between."

"I invite a bunch of folks to come and convince me to not do it."

"If we do more of this, everybody's happy."


Chapters

00:00 Owning Your Own Data Set for Competitive Advantage

03:03 Misconception of Successful Entrepreneurs as Investors

09:46 Automating the Process of Creating Product Screenshots

13:34 The Role of AI in Increasing Productivity

25:30 Genuinely Hating a Problem

26:28 Challenging and Deconstructing Business Cases

31:56 Tracking and Measuring KPIs

36:18 Owning and Operating Proprietary Data Sets

43:30 The Future of User Interfaces and Voice-First Products

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Summary

In the second conversation with Kieran Flanagan, SVP Marketing at Hubspot we talk about how we see AI really being used in tech and not just being a flashy thing you use once. From Sales, to Marketing to Product. Where are we today and where is all of this going?

The conversation explores the role of AI in strategy, the potential for AI-driven social networks, the impact of AI on user interfaces and customer service, the importance of data in AI tools, and the need for iterative refinement when using AI.

Takeaways

• AI can assist in strategy, but it requires human knowledge and the ability to ask for specific output.
• AI can improve user interfaces and customer service, but there is a risk of increased isolation and loneliness.
• Marketers and business leaders need to have a deep understanding of their own business before leveraging AI. 
• Challenges and limitations of AI include the need for large datasets and the resistance to adopting new software in sales.

Sound Bites

• "It’s not that AI cannot do strategy. You can't do strategy. You don't actually know how to talk to the AI and give it instructions in a way that would actually be helpful towards building a strategy."
• "AI can do a better job than nothing for people who are missing companionship, for people who feel like they are isolated, for people who just crave someone to be there at all times and talk to."
• "You give AI context, you teach it what good looks like before you use it productively."

Chapters

03:04 The Potential for AI-Driven Social Networks

05:59 AI and the Evolution of User Interfaces and Customer Service

08:52 The Importance of Data in AI Tools

14:17 The Limitations of AI in Understanding Context and Reasoning

31:12 Optimizing Workflows and Efficiency with AI

34:28 Enhancing Lead Generation and Conversion with AI

38:41 Improving the Customer Onboarding Experience with AI

44:26 Challenges and Limitations of AI in Sales

50:38 Using AI to Solve Real Problems and Create Value

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Summary

Kyle Pursell, the Head of Growth Optimization at Shopify, talks about impactful business strategies for growth.

What is the challenge of moving upmarket, and the role of product-led growth in driving this success. And why cross-functional collaboration in growth initiatives is often undervalued.

We also talk about the different paths to getting into growth roles and share their favorite podcasts and books.

Takeaways

• Building alignment and getting feedback before important meetings is never optional.
• Cross-functional collaboration is essential for effective growth initiatives
• Focus on maximizing user engagement in the first session to drive activation
• Implement strategies to retain customers who are canceling, such as offering compromises
• Consider different paths to getting into growth roles, such as starting in customer service or marketing

Sound Bites

• "Growth is not an overcomplicated craft. It's just identifying levers, using data to make decisions, experiment."
• "The aim of important meetings like that are just like a rubber stamp. Everyone is aligned."
• "Do not go into a meeting that is important to you without knowing how it ends."
• "Drive people as far down the funnel as possible in that first session as early as possible."

Chapters

07:01 Understanding GMV and Leveraging Metrics

14:28 The Power of Product-Led Growth

28:19 Optimizing Site Speed for Engagement and Conversion

32:10 The Importance of Cross-Functional Collaboration

35:30 The Importance of Stakeholder Alignment in Meetings

38:22 Maximizing User Engagement in the First Session

39:20 Strategies for Retaining Customers Who Are Canceling

51:34 Different Paths to Getting into Growth Roles

01:03:49 Unwinding with Podcasts and Books Outside of Your Field

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube

Summary

Kristen Berman, the Co-Founder of Irrational Labs discusses with me the psychology behind decision-making, the importance of understanding human behavior in product design, and the limitations of traditional research methods.

We are exploring the challenges of balancing friction and value in user experiences, the role of context in shaping behavior, and the need to focus on the first day of user onboarding. The concept of getting customers out of their status quo and the various strategies to achieve this, such as offering immediate benefits or making the onboarding process easier.


Takeaways
Traditional research methods, such as interviews, may not accurately predict future behavior.

The environment and user experience can significantly impact user behavior.

The first day of user onboarding is crucial for capturing user attention and driving engagement.

Context and reference points play a significant role in determining pricing and creating value for customers.


Sound Bites

"The psychology of not wanting to be cheated or feel like it's unfair can be pretty universal."

"Your job as a product person is to get me out of my status quo."

"Try to set your team up to do experiments. Starting higher is better because you can always come down if you start lower."


Chapters

00:00 The Psychology of Decision-Making and Product Growth

09:00 The Limitations of Traditional Research Methods

21:02 The Importance of the First Day of User Onboarding

24:16 Understanding the Context and Mindset of Users

27:06 Getting Customers Out of Their Status Quo

35:34 The Importance of Experimentation and Research in Pricing

43:28 Context and Reference Points in Pricing and Value Creation

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Summary

Guillaume Cabane and I discuss the future of marketing and the role of humans in a landscape dominated by AI and automation.  We’re talking about what does drive marketing and sales teams, and how their future will look like.

The conversation touches on topics such as product-led growth, market penetration, and the role of content marketing in engaging target audiences.

The conversation touches on the use of automation and human interaction in customer reactivation, as well as the ethical considerations of growth marketing. They conclude with insights on understanding churn and implementing effective re-engagement campaigns.

Takeaways

The role of humans in marketing is being challenged by AI and automation, raising questions about the future of engagement and trust.

Sophisticated scams and phishing techniques require marketers to find new ways to build trust with their audience.

Engagement and consumption metrics provide valuable insights into the effectiveness of marketing efforts and the level of interest from potential customers. Long sales cycles and complex products require a different approach to customer activation.

The NPS metric can be valuable for gathering feedback and identifying churn reasons, but it should be used in conjunction with other data sources.

Sound Bites

"Marketing generally has an incentive to over-promise, because that is what brings the people in."

"Why hand over to a human, which is a risk of failure at this point? Just automate the touch."

Chapters

07:31 Building Trust in the Face of Sophisticated Scams

13:13 Aligning Incentives and Metrics for Long-Term Customer Success

27:29 Measuring Engagement and Consumption for Effective Marketing

28:54 Customer Activation and Long Sales Cycles

31:22 The Importance of Customer Data and Tools

34:43 Automation vs. Human Interaction

39:18 Understanding Churn and Reactivation

49:18 The Limitations of NPS and Rebates

52:07 Timing and Strategies for Customer Reactivation


My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube

Summary

Activation and aha moments in product growth with Henrique Cruz, Head of Growth at Rows.com. How to find the right activation metric that predicts retention and how to iterate on the onboarding flow to improve activation.

Examples of activation metrics and the challenges of tracking and improving activation. The importance of branding, the land and expand strategy, and positioning a brand against larger competitors.

Benefits of dropping the homepage and allowing users to immediately access the product.

Takeaways

Importing a CSV file has no correlation with week one retention for Rows, while pulling data from an integration is strongly correlated with retention.

The onboarding flow and the post-onboarding flow are both important for activation.

Start by analyzing the actions of high engagement users to form hypotheses about activation metrics.

Separate core users from less engaged users to focus on retention.

Send churn emails to users who have stopped using the product to understand the reasons for churn.

Dropping the homepage and allowing users to immediately access the product can increase sign-up rates and provide valuable data for experimentation.


Sound Bites

"Importing a CSV file has basically no correlation with week one retention."
"Activation really only starts after onboarding."


Chapters

08:59 Iterating on the Onboarding Flow for Better Activation

10:53 Analyzing User Behavior to Improve Activation

18:02 Understanding Churn and Retention

23:00 The Impact of Embeds on Activation

23:30 Branding and Positioning

34:27 Dropping the Homepage and User Data

37:34 Selling to Enterprise Customers

46:42 Generating Curiosity Through Social Media

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube

Laura Schaffer, VP Product Growth @ Amplitude shares her experience of launching a self-serve paid plan and a free plan at Amplitude, a sales-led organization.

We discuss the changing landscape of selling, the power of self-serve product experiences, and the expectations of users. The conversation also delves into the tensions between sales and self-serve motions, the importance of buy-in and clear decision-making frameworks, and the structure and purpose of trials and freemium offerings.

We also talk about the disappearance of classical websites, questioning the need for a separate website and sign-up flow. What’s the role of Product, Growth and Marketing in that future?

Takeaways

The digital landscape has changed, and users now expect self-serve product experiences that allow them to try and evaluate products themselves.
Product-led growth (PLG) is a powerful approach that can drive pipeline and accelerate sales, but it requires buy-in and clear decision-making frameworks.
Trials and freemium offerings are effective ways to lower the friction of pricing and onboard users, but they need to provide enough value to get users over the next hurdle.
Digital web experiences and digital product experiences are becoming more similar, and the need for a separate website and sign-up flow is being questioned.

Sound Bites

"Whenever you layer in a self-serve motion into a sales led company, it will shed spotlight on any issues that are there at the company."
"Companies will start merging the website and product experience to avoid losing potential customers in the funnel."
Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Challenges of Implementing Self-Serve Motion

06:42 The Changing Landscape of Selling and the Power of Self-Serve Experiences

13:54 Tensions Between Sales and Self-Serve Motions: Navigating Conflicts and Gaining Buy-In

21:02 Trials and Freemium: Lowering Friction and Onboarding Users

26:02 Balancing Self-Serve and Sales-Led Motions: Serving Lower-End and Enterprise Segments

29:09 The Blurring Line Between Digital Web Experiences and Digital Product Experiences

37:01 Merging Website and Product Experiences

44:30 Measuring Success in a Product-Led Growth Model

50:36 The Importance of Support in the Self-Serve Environment


My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

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When is PLG just a fad? Vijay Iyengar, Senior Director of Product at Mixpanel discusses with me about the misconceptions around PLG and the role of analytics in driving business growth and why first principles is in our field the only thing we have.

Do PM’s really need to have a basic understanding of data and how it is stored and analyzed with LLMs being the norm? Why business intelligence (BI) tools are not the answer. 

Which key metrics and questions are correct to start with if you’re trying to get your data under control?

Takeaways

• PLG is not suitable for every business
• Business intelligence (BI) tools are good for consumption and reporting, but not for analysis.
• Data quality is a challenge, and engineers need to care about data and be involved in tracking.

Sound Bites

• "There's no best practices the way there are in other fields. Like it's all being written. It's all first principles."
• "There's plenty of businesses that can monetize much better and grow much better focusing on a different segment of the market where PLG isn't the appropriate sales motion."
• "Core root analysis, just following people around this is very, very underappreciated."
• "BI tools are good at consumption. It's good when you've predefined a set of metrics and dimensions and you want to push that out for general consumption."
• "Reporting is great to just keep a pulse on things, but nobody ever found an insight from reporting or nobody ever found something that's needle moving from a report."

Chapters

03:23 The Relevance and Overrating of Product-Led Growth (PLG)

05:15 Finding the Right Sales Motion for Your Business

09:28 The Importance of Tracking and Analytics in Sales Motions

13:44 Focusing on Churn and Retention for Sustainable Growth

22:14 Understanding the First Week Experience and Power Users

26:27 Understanding Data in Product Management

27:52 Limitations of BI Tools

29:19 Challenges of Data Quality and the Need for Engineers to Care

31:44 The Role of the CTO and CPO in Driving Data-Driven Decision-Making

46:34 Getting Started with Data Analysis: Focusing on Key Metrics

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What is the role of product managers in the age of AI and the potential impact of AI on roadmapping and expectation management?

Janna Bastow, CEO & Co-Founder ProdPad / Co-Founder of Mind the Product, shares her perspective on how AI is just another tool that can help product managers synthesize feedback and speed up certain aspects of their job.

Why AI should not replace the human element of product management, such as getting alignment from stakeholders and gathering feedback from real users and how we can think about evaluating roadmaps when they all look the same.

Why product managers being skilled in asking the right questions and validating their ideas with real customers is not optional anymore.

Takeaways

• The value of a roadmap lies in the roadmapping process, not just the document itself.
• AI can be used as a sense checker and sidekick to provide feedback and support decision-making, but human judgment is still crucial. Creating a company culture where employees feel comfortable challenging ideas is crucial for innovation and growth.
• Product managers need to understand how their work connects to revenue and develop roadmaps that align with the company's strategy.

Sound Bites

• "The job of a product manager is to get out of the building and understand what users and the market want. Especially with AI being around"
• "Nobody's getting fired for using AI."
• "Product managers who do not understand how their work connects to revenue will be in trouble in the future."

Chapters

00:00 The Role of Product Managers in the Age of AI

09:08 AI as a Tool for Feedback Synthesis and Speeding Up Product Management

23:17 Human Judgment and Decision-Making in Evaluating Roadmaps

25:34 Creating a Culture of Innovation and Openness

26:22 The Role of Product Managers in Driving Growth

27:41 The Impact of AI on Product Management

32:26 The Importance of Asking the Right Questions

35:19 Adapting to the Changing Landscape of Product Management

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Summary

Pedro Góes, the founder and CEO of InEvent, discusses with me the challenges and strategies of selling to enterprise clients in the event tech industry.

Why in-person interactions and relationship-building can’t be beat by pure self-serve. The value of certifications and how they contribute to higher retention rates.

He shares insights on the event tech market, the role of AI in their product, and the differences between doing business in the US and Europe.

Takeaways

• In-person interactions and relationship-building are important for establishing trust and are not just limited to sales.
• Expanding in-person operations and support can be a key differentiator.
• The challenges and regulations of doing business in Europe and the US differ.
• Finding a niche and focusing on a specific market segment can lead to success in an oversaturated market.

Sound Bites

• "We have been trying to focus on this type of clients because it's better retention."
• "We have been building this for 12 years and it's not ready yet."

Chapters

04:43 The Value of Certifications

09:48 Challenges and Opportunities in Enterprise Sales

18:07 Focusing on Key Product Offerings

23:30 The Importance of In-Person Interactions

28:41 Overcoming Sales Challenges

32:30 Expanding In-Person Operations

39:30 Navigating the European and US Markets

42:21 Conclusion

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John Cutler on the challenges of scaling and operating a collaborative product organization. 

We discuss different mental models for how different functions work together as teams and why it’s important to clarify and document the operating model, especially during times of growth, turnover, or changing strategies.

John talks about the concept of scaffolding is introduced as a way to navigate the process of change and improvement and why most crossfunctional initiatives fail.

Takeaways

• Define in an operating model team sizes, roles, and responsibilities
• Reduce single points of failure and promote shared accountability
• Establish a shared language around team and domain evolution
• Stay firm on the chosen operating model and evaluate it within a specific timeframe

Sound Bites

• "We invest in teams, products, and outcomes, not individual projects and deliverables."
• "What are the valid reasons to ask for money and what kind of rigor are you going to put for them for their team?"
• "Teams respond well if there are a small number of things that people are stubborn about."

Chapters

06:45 The Need for an Operating Model in a Growing Company

08:04 Running a Collaborative Product Organization

14:32 The Challenges of the CPO and CTO Tandem

19:26 The Importance of Clarifying and Documenting the Operating Model

29:00 Scaffolding and Navigating Change

38:23 Team Size and Misalignment in SaaS Teams

39:18 Investing in Teams, Products, and Outcomes

41:27 Valid Reasons to Ask for Money and Team Rigor

45:03 The Importance of Being Stubborn

46:46 The Power of Enable Constraints

51:54 Defining Team Sizes and Roles

01:05:30 The Role of Engineering Managers in Teams

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If you spend money on paid ads, chances are that you’re being taken advantage of. The biggest providers do it to you because they can and they optimize their systems more and more towards it.

Rand Fishkin and me discuss the challenges and limitations of paid advertising, the role of AI in marketing, the importance of organic initiatives and why you can’t skip good quality audience research.

Takeaways

• Many marketers spend money on ads that are shown to people who would have converted anyway.
• The best marketing channels are often the hardest to measure. Paid advertising can be limited and may not always provide the desired results because you don’t see how they really perform.

Sound Bites

• "There's lots of people being taken advantage of in the digital marketing and advertising ecosystem today."
• "There are literally hundreds of billions of dollars that flow into that ecosystem that don't necessarily have careful accounting."
• "We're going to need to do these sketchy things that essentially take credit for sales that would have already happened, show people more ad results, reduce the quality of the organic results, make it harder to identify ads, force people to scroll down further, lazy load the organic stuff and quick load the paid stuff."
• "Treat digital advertising the way Coca-Cola treated billboards in 1965. Test different messages and campaigns in specific markets and analyze the lift in same-store sales to determine effectiveness."

Chapters

06:30 The Issues with Digital Advertising

10:22 Taking Advantage of the Digital Marketing Ecosystem

13:14 The Challenge of Proper Accounting and Attribution

18:29 The Misleading Nature of Digital Metrics

23:03 The Difficulty of Measuring the Best Marketing Channels

23:59 The Limitations of Paid Advertising and the Need for Innovation

25:27 The Impact of AI on Marketing and the Changing Web

28:10 The Value of Organic Initiatives in Marketing

29:31 Testing and Experimentation in Marketing

34:13 The Importance of Working with Competent Experts

41:26 The Significance of Qualitative Metrics in Marketing

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Cringe Marketing, Dogfooding, and the limitations of Hubspot and Salesforce with Austin Hay, the Co-Founder of Clarify (CRM).

I talked with Austin on the rise of superficial marketing tactics and what they do to the importance of building a strong brand.

We discuss why Product Managers cannot ignore Marketing anymore and the value of good dogfooding in product development when everyone tells you to “listen to your customer”.

How to transition from being your own ideal customer to targeting a different market segment.

Takeaways

• Marketing is moving from a deterministic approach to a more probabilistic approach, where marketers have less control and understanding of who and how to reach people.
• The rise of superficial and cringe-worthy marketing tactics on platforms like LinkedIn is a result of increased competition and the need to stand out.
• Traditional CRMs have limitations in terms of speed, data entry, and automation.

Sound Bites

• "Marketing is moving back to the ways things were done in the 1960s to the 1990s, where you're not going to have as much control and understanding about who and how to reach people."
• "We're just shifting market shares around without deriving value to the customer."
• "You can be a really good dog fooder of your product, but you may not be the ideal ICP for your product in the future."
• "The core product is never done. Whenever you add something else, it becomes a little bit worse, and then you need to repatch it up."

Chapters

08:12 The Rise of Superficial and Cringe-Worthy Marketing Tactics

13:55 The Importance of Building a Strong Brand

23:40 The Role of Marketing in Product Development

29:03 The Value of Dogfooding in Product Development

31:25 The Value and Challenges of Dogfooding

38:12 The Never-Ending Process of Product Development

39:07 Balancing Customer Feedback and Vision

53:46 The Limitations of Traditional CRMs

01:00:15 Introducing Clarify: Disrupting the CRM Market 

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Ami Vora, CPO at Faire, brilliantly lays out a lot of concepts about how she views senior leadership:

How to build a strong bench of performers, balancing authenticity and urgency. How do you make yourself care about boring topics and find joy in work?

Why feedback loops and building team connections become more important as an organization scales. How do we deal with weak performers, skip-level meetings, and when to invest in strong performers?

Why growing others is always paying dividends and make you more secure.

Takeaways

• Balancing authenticity and urgency is a challenge in leadership, but it is important to be true to oneself while maintaining a sense of urgency.
• Transitioning from an operative role to a product leadership role involves a shift in power dynamics and the need to build connections with team members.
• Managing weak performers can be challenging, but it's important to depersonalize the conversation and focus on finding the right match for the role.
• Skip-level meetings provide unique insights and opportunities for career development.
• Generosity and supporting others in their growth are key qualities of a secure leader.

Sound Bites

• "Invest in what you think the future looks like"
• "Recognize and address mistakes, then move forward"
• "What I do like is like calling everyone on the phone and saying like, 'How are you? What's going on with your career? What can I help with?'"

Chapters

00:00 Investing in the Future: Building a Strong Bench

06:03 Balancing Authenticity and Urgency in Leadership

08:19 Forgiving Oneself: Learning from Mistakes

18:13 Finding Motivation: Understanding Why

25:08 Building Connections: Fostering Unity in Scaled Organizations

26:03 Navigating the Shift in Power Dynamics

27:28 Building Connections through One-on-One Conversations

28:55 The Importance of a Growth Mindset and Feedback

31:20 Managing Weak Performers with Empathy

32:17 The Role of Skip-Level Meetings

34:07 Investing in Strong Performers for the Future

36:27 The Power of Generosity in Leadership 

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Summary

The branding experts Shannon Deep and Kevin Lee dig into exploring the multifaceted nature of brand measurement and strategy.

Misconceptions surrounding brands and risks associated with brand decisions, the importance of aligning brand strategy with business goals, and the challenges faced by founder-led brands in maintaining their identity.

What does marketing look like in the future? Where does product marketing sit?

Takeaways

• Many senior leaders conflate brand with just design and visuals.
• Brand is an additional filtering mechanism for attracting the right customers.
• Measuring brand effectiveness can be complex but is crucial for growth.
• Founder-led brands face unique challenges in separating their identity from the company.
• Brand marketing is becoming increasingly important in the current business landscape.
• You can measure brand through various metrics, including share of search and brand awareness.

Sound Bites

• "Brand is the sum total of all experiences."

Chapters

07:31 Understanding Brand Beyond Visuals

14:41 Navigating Brand Decisions and Risks

22:46 The Role of Brand in Business Strategy

30:43 Measuring Brand Effectiveness

37:28 The Challenge of Founder-Led Brands

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The dynamics of leadership in product management, the importance of a low-hierarchy organization, the challenges of founder mode, and the balance between control and empowerment.

Data in product management, the limitations of traditional tools, and the future of product management with AI. 

Takeaways

• Founders often struggle with letting go of control.
• Micromanagement can be necessary but should be balanced with empowerment.
• Traditional product management tools often fall short in meeting modern needs.
• AI will transform the way product management operates.
• Unshipping features is essential for product evolution.

Sound Bites

• "Ego should really never play a role here."
• "I never make any decisions here alone."
• "There's nobody more incentivized to make this whole thing work than the founders."

Chapters

03:12 The Journey of AirFocus

05:59 Navigating Founder Mode and Micromanagement

09:13 Balancing Control and Empowerment

11:59 The Role of Data in Product Management

14:53 Challenges of Traditional Product Management Tools

18:03 The Future of Product Management with AI

20:55 Empowering Engineers in Product Development

23:49 Unshipping Features and Product Evolution

27:03 Connecting Sales and Product Management

29:51 The Importance of Customer Insights

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We discuss the complexities of change management, the importance of direct communication, and the evolving dynamics of workplace relationships vs in the past. How to build trust within teams, the significance of clarity in roles, and the challenges of hiring in today's market, particularly for executive positions.

What’s the difference between really good leaders and bad managers?

Takeaways

• Change management should simplify processes, not complicate them
• Workplace dynamics are influenced by external advice.
• Hiring should focus on long-term vision and fit.
• Leadership requires balancing urgency with pragmatism.

Sound Bites

• "People are getting too much of their work advice from TikTok."

Chapters

02:55 The Art of Direct Communication

05:50 Navigating Workplace Dynamics

09:07 Building Trust in Teams

11:55 The Evolution of Work Structures

14:48 Effective Team Management

18:05 The Importance of Clarity in Roles

24:04 Hiring for the Future

26:54 The Role of Leadership in Change

30:01 The Challenge of Executive Hiring

33:13 The Impact of AI on Recruitment

36:02 Networking in Today's Job Market

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The importance of vision, careful pivots, and the balance between innovation and optimization. 

Her concept of a vision is, to me, one of the very few that I think is actually cutting through the noise and has an impact aside from the cookie-cutter frameworks we had so far.

It’s beyond processes over mere goal-setting in achieving long-term success in startups.

takeaways

• Pivots should be treated as silver bullets, used deliberately.
• A strong vision can save not just a product line but also sanity.
• Innovation should not be sacrificed for optimization.
• Processes should be prioritized over mere goal-setting for better outcomes.

Chapters

17:28 The Importance of Vision in Startups

36:54 Aligning Teams Through Vision and Strategy

51:26 Balancing Innovation and Optimization

01:02:17 The Role of Processes Over Goals

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 Learnings from the transition from B2C to B2B in the fintech space focus on what can be carried over and what not. Forming behavioral habits and the challenges of building a sustainable business model while addressing the social determinants of financial health were just a few topics in this fascinating episode I recorded with Erin Papworth.

The complexities of navigating the B2B sales landscape suddenly after selling to individuals.

takeaways

• “The core concept was how can we get people to do something for less than three minutes a day around their finances.”
• The shift from B2C to B2B requires different strategies.
• Internal tools often fail to meet market needs.
• Navigating the complexities of B2B sales is a learning process.

Chapters

06:00 Innovative Approaches to Financial Health

11:48 Engagement Strategies in Fintech

18:12 The Human Connection in Financial Services

24:06 Building a Sustainable Business Model

27:22 Financial Stress and Mental Health Nexus

30:39 Challenges in Internal Tooling for HR

32:31 Pivoting from B2C to B2B Strategies

36:03 Data-Driven Insights for HR

40:56 Navigating the B2B Sales Landscape 

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 Vincent Pierri interviews me (Leah Tharin) about my journey into public speaking, particularly within the tech industry. How I found a platform, overcame stage fright, and built confidence. How does it feel to speak to different audience sizes?

How do you train this muscle? And where do memes fit into our dry tech industry? Why is building a brand such a painful experience due to the needed consistency,

Interview conducted by Vincent Pierri 🙏 (Public Speaking Voice Coach), who offered his time to generously donate his time to turn me into a guest for once about a topic I don’t specifically talk about.

Takeaways

• Different audience sizes require different speaking strategies.
• Feedback loops are essential for improving public speaking skills.
• Humor can be a powerful tool in public speaking.
• Consistency is key in building an online presence.
• Having a unique point of view is essential for engagement.
• Rising recognition can lead to a more isolated experience.

Sound Bites

• "Public speaking is not just in the public."
• "You should not be a senior leader if you cannot speak well."

Chapters

02:45 The Journey into Public Speaking

09:11 The Importance of Content and Delivery

12:00 Navigating Different Audience Sizes

14:53 The Role of Feedback in Public Speaking

18:10 The ROI of Public Speaking for Tech Leaders

20:52 Crafting Effective Presentations

26:52 Gary: The Memorable Character from Sales

29:50 Preparing for Talks and Finding Your Voice

38:14 The Value of Podcasting

42:02 Navigating LinkedIn for Audience Building

47:01 The Pain of Personal Branding

51:49 The Journey of a D-List Celebrity 

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What is driving a company's value in 2024? How do we identify and copy trends that work until they don’t anymore? Why is product-led growth no longer a differentiator but becoming a table stake fast?

Why is everyone suddenly providing a pipeline from product, marketing, sales, and customer success while the only way that most companies measure pipeline is through Marketing and their MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads)? Why does this old model not work anymore?

takeaways

• Demand comes from various sources, but visibility is lacking.
• MQLs are often an arbitrary measure of lead quality.
• Valuations in the market are not always reflective of true value.
• Building a sustainable company requires a focus on customer conversion. MQLs often lead to inefficient marketing practices.

Sound Bites

• "There's very little visibility into what's actually working."
• "MQLs are an arbitrary definition of leads."
• "It's very spray and pray-oriented."

Chapters

04:56 The Evolution of Growth Strategies

10:01 The Dichotomy of Product-Led and Sales-Led Growth

15:05 The Importance of Founders and Team Dynamics

19:54 The Future of CRM and Data Integration

25:07 Rethinking MQLs and Sales Incentives

27:30 Rethinking MQLs: A New Approach to Marketing

30:55 Defining Success: The Role of ICPs in MQLs

34:41 The Interplay of Marketing, Sales, and Customer Success

39:42 Navigating Customer Journeys: The Role of Support

44:03 The Future of Investment: AI and Market Dynamics

49:10 The Evolution of Inbound Marketing: Finding New Channels

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Maranda Dziekonski on the evolving landscape of customer success, the importance of driving value for customers, and owning revenue outcomes for a function that traditionally never has. Like product.

Why the traditional role is shifting to a more integrated approach and how this works when “the sale never ends”

We discuss the complexities of customer success, the impact of budget constraints on customer retention, and the importance of understanding customer churn.

What it means to build around mission-critical services and having the correct timing to introduce customer success to a company. How does sales compensation integrate with customer success actions and how can we transition customers smooth between sales and customer success?

What do “Head of” titles mean if anything?

Without a doubt one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded.

takeaways

• The role of customer success is evolving to include revenue ownership.
• Customer success can be seen as an extension of sales but with a different approach.
• The sale never truly ends; it's an ongoing relationship.
• Customer success leaders need to demonstrate their impact on revenue.
• Customer success should be integrated into product development.
• Sales compensation should align with customer success goals.

Sound Bites

• "Own revenue outcomes."
• "The sale never ends."
• "A ‘head of’ is a lawyer for their function."

Chapters

06:46 The Evolution of Customer Success

13:48 Revenue Ownership in Customer Success

19:57 The NPS Debate: Metrics and Insights

28:21 Understanding Customer Churn and Budget Constraints

31:08 The Role of Customer Success in B2B SaaS

33:59 When to Introduce Customer Success Management

36:14 Sales Compensation and Customer Success Integration

39:37 The Importance of Smooth Handoffs in Customer Success

40:34 Connecting Product Usage Data to Sales

45:22 Navigating Titles: Head of vs. VP in Organizations

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Founder-led sales done well has a lot of power especially in product-led companies. Tadas Labudis shares his experiences with founder-led sales and how it helped him build confidence in the product and himself.

How to embrace your vulnerabilities and the importance of leaving a positive impression in sales interactions while getting insights you would never get just by looking at data.

How to balance product-led growth with effective sales strategies before its too late.

takeaways

• Sales can be enjoyable once you find your own style.
• Calculated risks in entrepreneurship are often misunderstood as reckless.
• Product-led growth can coexist with sales-led strategies.
• The definition of product growth is evolving. Founder-led sales is crucial for early-stage startups.
• Hiring salespeople too early can be risky.

Sound Bites

• "I learned to enjoy sales."
• "Entrepreneurship is not as risky as it seems."
• "You cannot hurry your clients."
• "Sales is about refining the ICP and messaging."
• "Product-led growth is about cost efficiency."

Chapters

03:09 Understanding Risk in Entrepreneurship

05:59 The Psychology of Product Development

08:48 Balancing Product-Led and Sales-Led Approaches

12:06 Navigating Early Sales Challenges

14:52 The Importance of Customer Retention

18:11 Building a Product That Sells Itself

21:00 The Role of Paid Pilots in Sales

23:57 Leaving a Lasting Impression in Sales

27:36 The Power of Founder-Led Sales

30:26 Misconceptions About Sales and Selling Styles

33:16 The Importance of Personal Sales Experience

36:19 Leveraging Sales Insights for Product Development

43:01 Refining Messaging and Understanding Customer Expectations

48:03 Balancing Product-Led Growth and Sales Strategies

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Kristi Faltorusso, a CS executive and coach, joins me in this high-energy conversation about customer success-assisted onboarding, alignment, and the dreaded realities of cross-functional working with product & sales.

We explore effective onboarding strategies, the importance of aligning customer success with product development, and the necessity of quantifying challenges faced by customer success teams.

What’s the importance of defining effective KPIs for customer success, focusing on leading indicators rather than lagging ones? How DO we measure customer happiness? Is the NPS as useless as I believe it is?

takeaways

• Onboarding strategies must focus on delivering value quickly by measuring time to value.
• Consultative approaches to customer success add significant value.
• Customer success teams often act as advocates for product improvements.
• Focus on leading indicators for customer success.
• Customer segmentation should be based on use cases, not just size.

Chapters

04:45 Understanding Customer Success and Onboarding Strategies

09:48 The Role of Customer Success in Product Development

14:50 Bridging the Gap Between Customer Success and Product Teams

19:56 Quantifying Customer Success Challenges and Solutions

23:41 Understanding Product Impact on Business Metrics

28:19 Defining Effective KPIs for Customer Success

33:06 Measuring Customer Engagement and Value

38:07 The Myth of Customer Happiness

43:11 Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed Decisions

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The nuances of executive communication and the importance of building buy-in for ideas with Wes Kao. The role of credibility, understanding bandwidth in conversations, and strategies for framing discussions to enhance clarity and reduce cognitive load.

De-risking strategies to avoid surprises and the significance of celebrating good decision-making processes rather than just successful outcomes. 

Takeaways

• Working autonomously means communicating more, not less.
• Surprises in the workplace are generally unwelcome.
• Celebrate the process of good decision-making, not just results.
• Make your proposals easy for others to present.
• Communication should be proactive, not reactive.

Chapters

01:51 Introduction to Wes Cowell and His Journey

02:51 Obsession vs. Discipline in Achieving Success

06:30 The Art of Executive Communication

07:51 Building Buy-In for Ideas

11:10 The Role of Credibility in Communication

15:24 Understanding Bandwidth in Conversations

19:34 Framing Conversations for Clarity

22:22 Reducing Cognitive Load in Communication

27:31 Cross-Functional Communication Strategies

30:51 Effective Communication in Leadership

34:06 De-risking Proposals and Feedback Loops

39:38 Celebrating Good Decisions Over Results

44:10 The Importance of Rigorous Thinking

54:30 Preparing Others for Success in Presentations

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 The pervasive issue of layoff anxiety in the tech industry, particularly in the wake of COVID-19, overvaluation and the rise of AI. Dr. Joan Palmiter explores with me the importance of networking and personal branding as essential tools for job security and career advancement.

Are multiple income streams and optionality realistic to mitigate the fear of job loss? How does personal career development overlap with product management? The significance of networking and communication skills and the evolving field of AI and how to adapt to it.

takeaways

• 70% of job seekers find opportunities through personal connections.
• It's important to be open and generous in networking efforts.
• Finding personal goals is crucial; not everything is monetizable.
• Continuous learning and adaptation are vital in the tech landscape.

Sound Bites

• "Don't stay in one lane; connect two lanes."

Chapters

12:47 The Importance of Networking and Personal Branding

24:07 Exploring Optionality and Income Streams

26:10 Leveraging Product Management Skills in Diverse Fields

27:09 Finding Personal Goals: Money vs. Joy

28:31 The Importance of Passion in Career Success

30:34 Navigating Career Choices and Social Status

32:54 Building a Career Roadmap: Steps and Strategies

34:23 Overcoming Hurdles: Grit and Resilience in Career

37:18 The Art of Follow-Up: Networking and Communication Skills

41:00 Understanding AI: Getting Started in a New Field

46:28 The Future of AI: Learning and Adapting to Change 

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Why is it so difficult for most companies to shift gears after reaching product market fit? Why can’t we just keep doing what made us successful?

Francesca Cortesi shares with me insights on the difficult journey from finding product market fit to getting to an IPO. We particularly explore the details of Hemnet, a Swedish B2B2C SaaS marketplace and how they dealt with this challenge.

takeaways

• Defending existing revenue becomes a priority as companies scale.
• Diluting your value proposition can occur when scaling too quickly.
• Sustainable growth should be prioritized over rapid expansion.
• Post-market fit requires speed within control and structured decision-making.
• Founders must transition from product-centric to organizational leadership roles.

titles

• From Market Fit to IPO: The Hemnet Journey
• Scaling Strategies for Product Leaders
• Navigating Growth Stages in Tech Companies
• The Role of Innovation in Sustaining Growth

Sound Bites

• "It's a matter of taking down your ego."
• "Don't forget about your core product."

Chapters

04:53 The Journey of Hemnet: From Startup to IPO

09:57 Navigating Company Growth Stages

14:57 The Importance of Innovation Post-IPO

20:09 Challenges of Scaling: CFO and CPO Perspectives

23:53 The Challenges of Scaling and Alignment

27:59 Mindset Shifts for Sustainable Growth

30:18 Navigating Post-Market Fit Dynamics

35:22 The Lottery Win: Managing Growth Expectations

39:34 Focus and Structure: Keys to Avoiding Pitfalls

44:27 B2B2C Dynamics: Balancing Customer Needs

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Teresa Torres offers a rare sneak peek behind the curtain of how she runs her business. How can you maximize your chances when you’re reaching out to people like us who have limited attention to go around?

What is our pricing strategy for what we do, and how did we come up with it? How does Teresa’s demand generation differ from Marty Cagan's or mine?

takeaways

• Coaching should be a mutual investment of time and resources.
• Not all requests for help are equal; specificity matters.

Sound Bites

• "I charge a speaking fee to protect my energy."
• "Be brief when reaching out for help."

Chapters

01:13 Understanding Introversion in a Social World

04:02 Setting Boundaries: The Challenge of Social Requests

08:15 The Value of Speaking Engagements and Energy Management

12:09 Crafting Effective Requests: The Importance of Specificity

15:27 Navigating the Landscape of Help Requests

20:30 Monetization and Value: Setting the Right Price

30:12 The Evolution of Pricing Strategies

37:19 Final Thoughts: The Importance of Investment in Coaching

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We explore the rising significance of interactive demos in B2B SaaS. How these demos serve as a bridge between potential buyers and products, improving all relevant pipeline numbers.

The evolution of demo technology, the role of Gen.AI in enhancing demo creation, and the shifting dynamics of the sales process towards a more self-service model.

How does the future of marketing in a product-led world look like for Sales?

Takeaways

• Gen.AI will revolutionize demo creation and usage.
• The market for interactive demos is expanding rapidly.
• Buyers prefer to explore products independently before engaging sales.
• Budget holders are becoming more flexible and decentralized.
• Value-driven marketing will replace traditional methods.

Sound Bites

• "Interactive demos are a stepping stone towards PLG."
• "Stop playing with words, play with value."

Chapters

03:57 Defining Interactive Demos

09:46 The Evolution of Demo Technology

14:02 The Impact of Gen.AI on Demos

20:04 The Future of Sales and Interactive Demos

26:05 The Evolving Role of Sellers in Tech Sales

27:05 Changing Dynamics of Budget Holders

28:54The Shift in Market Approach

30:15 The Importance of Market Understanding

32:05 Navigating the Competitive Landscape

33:32 The Power of Buyer Enablement

34:32 The Role of Interactive Demos

36:50 The Future of Interactive Demos

39:22 The Impact of Interactive Demos on Sales

41:13 The Fragmentation of the Interactive Demo Market

44:05 The Integration of Sales and Product Analytics

48:50 The Future of Marketing in a Product-Led World

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The evolution of sales models, the critical role of customer success in driving revenue, and the responsibilities of C-level executives in fostering cross-functional collaboration with Harini Gokul, CCO @ Entrust, from a first principle perspective.

The challenges of implementing product-led sales strategies and the importance of simplifying metrics for effective decision-making. Why traditional customer metrics don’t work that well anymore and why it’s all about two things in business, no matter the scale:

Securing and growing customers.

Takeaways

• C-level roles require a focus on company-wide outcomes, not just departmental interests.
• Cross-functional problems often feel dangerous with little upside.
• Sales teams often lack the skills to interpret data effectively.
• Transforming organizations requires a willingness to challenge the status quo.

Sound Bites

• "Revenue happens everywhere."
• "What does good look like?"

Chapters

00:00 Rethinking Sales Models for Modern Business

12:04 The Role of Customer Success in Revenue Generation

24:06 Understanding C-Level Responsibilities and Cross-Functional Collaboration

28:19 Bridging Data Silos in Organizations

32:34 The Challenge of Product-Led Sales

36:47 Simplifying Metrics for Better Decision Making

39:11 Rethinking NPS and Customer Success Metrics

42:56 Time to Value: A Key Metric for Success

46:48 External Benchmarks and Customer Perspectives

49:40 Transforming Organizations for Modern Business

55:50 Closing Thoughts and Future Connections

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“The only time where I saw all the VPs align is when they all hated the CEO” Why do we keep getting organizations wrong? How should you think about your team, the team of teams, and the organization you’re in?

Our five principles of organizational design and how to navigate growth and scaling challenges, particularly in startups.

takeaways

• Growth should be a collective responsibility across all departments.
• High internal conflict is a sign of poor organizational health.
• C-level executives must act as translators between departments. Internal curiosity is as important as external curiosity.
• Smaller companies often scale too quickly without solid foundations.
• Founders should maintain humility about what they don't know.

Sound Bites

• "We start out with a high-level idea, then complicate it."
• "You should measure MQLs, not celebrate them."
• "Make sure you're alive to fight in the next round."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding the Dual Role of a CMO

06:08The Ownership of Growth: A Collective Responsibility

12:12 Organizational Design: Indicators of Health and Conflict

17:51 The Complexity of Metrics and Data Overload

23:56 Cross-Functional Collaboration: The Role of C-Level Executives

30:38 The Importance of Internal Curiosity

31:36 Lessons from the GE Hawthorne Experiments

32:32 Feedback and Communication in Organizations

34:21 Five Principles of Organizational Design

36:14 Designing for Healthy Conflicts

37:40 Rethinking Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs)

40:02 The Role of Incentives in Organizational Success

42:17 Establishing Fail-Safe Processes

44:13 Challenges Faced by Smaller Companies

45:08 The Need for Humility in Startups

48:57 The Complexity of Large-Scale Projects

50:50 Understanding Time vs. Money in Enterprise Sales

52:00 Practical Advice for Implementing Change

56:41 Managing Big Projects Effectively

59:01 Staying Alive in the Competitive Landscape

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 Kris Rudeegraap, Co-CEO of Sendoso, talks about Sendoso’s journey from plg to sales-led back to plg and what all of this has to do with personal branding in B2B marketing. Why is Sendoso betting on physical advertising channels like gifts and direct mail as a provider, and what does he see the future of getting attention from the market looking like with AI changing everything?

Takeaways

• Companies are exploring underutilized marketing channels for 2025.
• Direct mail and gifting are emerging as effective marketing strategies.
• The evolution of Sendoso reflects the need for both sales-led and product-led growth.
• Sales and product-led growth must be balanced for success.

Sound Bites

• "The inbox on LinkedIn is broken."
• "Resumes are almost dead."

Chapters

00:00 Exploring Underutilized Marketing Channels

05:00 The Evolution of Sendoso: From Sales-Led to Product-Led Growth

09:49 Navigating the Challenges of Product Development

13:50 The Importance of Personal Branding in B2B

20:11 The Future of Content Creation and Marketing Strategies

24:39 The Evolving Landscape of Business Growth

25:57 Rethinking Go-to-Market Strategies

27:48 The Renaissance of Employee Education

29:44 Building a Sustainable Outbound Engine

31:10 Balancing Sales and Product-Led Growth

33:20 Navigating Customer Success and Sales Dynamics

35:35 The Future of Account Management

38:26 AI Agents in Customer Interaction

41:43 The Integration of AI in Customer Support

43:37 The Expanding Definition of Go-to-Market

45:31 The Future of Cross-Functional Teams

47:27 The Role of AI in Product Optimization 

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 The amazing Emily Kramer talks with me about B2B Marketing, the rise and fall of influencer marketing, and the challenges of navigating the 2025 social media noise.

What does the future of marketing look like while everything changes so rapidly?

takeaways

• Influencer marketing is becoming less effective.

Sound Bites

• "The death of channels might be more accurate."
• "You have to figure out your strengths first."
• "You need to shut up about the other things."
• "Don't run your startup like an enterprise."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Marketing Channels

05:06 The Evolution of Marketing

10:07 Influencer Marketing in B2B

15:13 Navigating the Noise of Social Media

19:58 Identifying Unique Marketing Advantages

25:13 The Importance of Focus in Marketing

26:39 Navigating Brand Messaging and Differentiation

29:02 The Importance of Focus in Marketing Strategies

31:11 Balancing Ideas and Execution in Marketing Plans

33:05 Marketing as a Product: A New Perspective

35:51 Lifecycle Marketing: Engaging Existing Customers

39:20 Rethinking Marketing Goals and Metrics

42:39 The Evolution of Marketing Structures

45:02 The Future of Marketing: Innovation and Adaptation 

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Senior Scientist Julia Chantin unpacks how cognitive biases and flawed feedback loops sabotage learning—and why SaaS leaders need to care. From debunking misconceptions (like why “proving” someone wrong often backfires) to the power of embodied learning, Julia reveals how diverse perspectives and physical interaction drive breakthroughs. Learn actionable strategies to challenge assumptions, build resilient teams, and design products that align with how humans actually learn - not just how we think they do.

• "We need to reward effort, not just success."

01:20 - 07:30
Why Feedback Loops Fail (And How to Fix Them)
Julia breaks down why homogeneous feedback reinforces biases, the danger of “echo chambers,” and why SaaS teams need diverse perspectives to challenge assumptions.

07:30 - 14:45
Embodied Learning: The Science Behind VR, Physicality, and Retention
Deep dive into Julia’s research: How physical interaction (e.g., movement, touch) reshapes learning, why traditional education often misses the mark, and implications for SaaS product design.

14:45 - 22:00
From Theory to Practice: Actionable Strategies for Leaders
Tactical advice: Building resilient teams, designing experiments that embrace failure, and fostering curiosity over “convincing.” Includes Leah’s relatable analogies (e.g., gym consistency vs. learning).

22:00 - 28:50
The Emotional Side of Learning: Fear, Identity, and Incentives
Julia explains why emotional engagement matters (e.g., imposter syndrome, fear of failure), and how leaders can align incentives with sustainable learning processes.

28:50 - 33:00
Key Takeaways & Closing
Julia’s final wisdom: Why “explaining to understand” beats “explaining to convince,” and how SaaS leaders can start small (e.g., toy projects, cross-functional feedback).

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From streamlining user research to improving cross-functional alignment, Tal Raviv shares practical tips for PMs to embrace AI without fear. The key? Start small, experiment often, and use AI as a thought partner - not a replacement. Whether it’s summarizing transcripts, building custom assistants, or leveraging tools like ChatGPT and Notion AI, the future of PM work isn’t about avoiding AI - it’s about mastering it.

Key Takeaways

1. AI Won’t Replace PMs, But It Will Change the Job: AI is a tool, not a threat. PMs who learn to use it effectively will thrive.
2. Start Small & Iterate: Don’t wait for the “perfect” AI solution. Experiment with tools like ChatGPT, Claude, and Whisper to find what works for you.
3. Cross-Functional Alignment Gets Easier: AI can surface insights from unstructured data, helping PMs align teams and avoid conflicts.
4. AI as a Thought Partner: Use AI to generate ideas, simulate scenarios, and streamline workflows—but always stay connected to the raw data.
5. The Future is Contextual: Tools like Notion AI and Slack AI are powerful because they have access to your company’s unique context.

01:36 - 04:16
Why Product Management Feels Less Fun (And AI Isn’t Helping)
Tal dives into why product management has become less enjoyable in recent years, citing increased pressure, fewer PMs per team, and the added uncertainty of AI. He emphasizes the importance of staying hands-on and experimenting with AI tools to cut through the noise.

04:16 - 07:59
AI’s Impact on PM Workflows: From Discovery to Go-To-Market
AI isn’t just changing how PMs work—it’s reshaping entire workflows, team structures, and even job applications. Tal breaks down the four key areas where AI is shaking things up and why PMs need to adapt quickly.

07:59 - 10:07
The Antidote to AI Fear: Small Experiments & Tinkering
Instead of fearing AI, Tal advocates for small, hands-on experiments. He shares practical tips for PMs to start tinkering with AI tools, like dedicating time each week to test new tools and iterate on prompts.

10:07 - 14:20
AI for User Research: Summarizing Transcripts & Building Craft
Leah and Tal discuss how AI can streamline user research, from summarizing transcripts to identifying key insights. Tal emphasizes the importance of iterating on prompts and staying connected to the raw data to maintain product intuition.

14:20 - 18:25
Trusting AI Outputs: When to Double-Check & When to Let Go
Leah shares a practical tip: test AI with data you already know well to gauge its accuracy. Tal adds that even when AI gets it right, PMs should still engage with the raw data to keep their intuition sharp.

18:25 - 22:54
Cross-Functional Alignment Made Easier with AI
AI can help PMs connect the dots across departments, like spotting conflicts between marketing campaigns and product launches. Tal and Leah discuss how AI can surface insights from unstructured data, making cross-functional collaboration smoother.

22:54 - 27:14
Building Custom AI Assistants: From SQL Queries to API Docs
Leah shares how she built a custom ChatGPT bot to handle SQL queries and API documentation, saving hours of manual work. Tal highlights the importance of giving AI context to make it truly useful.

27:14 - 29:53
AI Isn’t Magic: Start Small & Iterate
Tal debunks the myth that AI requires “magic spells” (aka perfect prompts) to work. He encourages PMs to start small, iterate, and not overthink the process.

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Lidia Oshlyansk reflects on navigating decades of tech evolution - from webmaster days to AI - and shares tactical advice for product operatives. Drawing parallels between today’s AI boom and past shifts (web/mobile revolutions), we talk about transferable skills (negotiation, systems thinking) over fleeting tools, debunks "future-proofing," and advocates curiosity-driven adaptability.

Key Timestamps

• 01:58 - Lidia’s unconventional path: From "business architect" to CPO roles at Spotify/Google
• 04:07 - Case Study: How "information architects" evolved into modern UX strategists
• 08:51 - Reality Check: "GPT-5 won’t fix human-centered leadership" (critical systems thinking)
• 14:21 - Data Point: 27 COBOL developer jobs in Sweden today (adaptation > prediction)
• 20:21 - Framework: Transferable skills that outlast tools (with PM/UX examples)
• 27:46 - Leadership Hack: Building "future-proof" teams through skill adjacency mapping
• 34:39 - Candid Talk: Why existential crises plague tech leaders (and how to reframe them)
• 42:02 - Tactical Takeaway: "Block 30 min/week for AI upskilling – no agenda required"
• 50:26 - Counterintuitive: "Stop future-proofing careers – start curiosity-proofing"

3 Strategic Themes for GTM Leaders

1. Navigating AI Disruption
   • Why AI adoption curves mirror mobile/web revolutions1
   • The critical human skills that remain automation-resistant (e.g., negotiation, prioritization)
2. Building Resilient Teams
   • Identifying "evergreen" skills (e.g., information architecture → modern UX strategy)1
   • Creating psychological safety for continuous reskilling
3. Personal Adaptation Playbook
   • Curated peer learning networks > generic upskilling platforms
   • Career capital vs. career comfort tradeoffs

Quotes

"Your ability to negotiate priorities with engineers/designers/execs is the ultimate transferable skill" – Lidia

"We don’t need future-proof careers – we need curiosity-proof humans" – Leah

Guest Background

• Current Role: CPO @ Gillian (building the world’s largest growth platform for founders)
• Career Highlights:
  • Scaled products at Spotify, Google, and Eschew
  • PhD in Human-Computer Interaction (early web/UX focus)
  • Pioneer in animated GIFs and 1990s web design

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Adam Fishman, interim SVP of New Products at Mozilla, shares insights on zero-to-one product development, killing unsustainable projects, and navigating AI’s impact on B2B SaaS. He breaks down Mozilla’s stage-gating process for innovation, the challenges of balancing ambition with practicality, and why distribution often trumps product in today’s crowded market.

Chapters with Timestamps

00:00–03:30

• Adam’s role at Mozilla: Building beyond Firefox, managing innovation, and why “killing projects” is critical.

03:30–15:30

• Stage Gating 101: How Mozilla’s framework prioritizes ideas, allocates resources, and avoids “innovation theater.”
• The 5 stages: Discovery, Exploration, Viability, Growth, and Sustaining.

15:30–30:00

• AI’s Double-Edged Sword: Turbocharging prototyping vs. drowning in “wrapper” tools.
• Why distribution (not product) is the new battleground for SaaS.

30:00–45:00

• Corporate Innovation Realities: Avoiding “software sprawl,” managing founder-minded PMs, and surviving existential pivots.
• Adam’s take on AI-driven sales tools: “We’re flooding the zone with crap.”

45:00–01:00:00

• Hot Takes: Why B2B SaaS companies built on “forms + databases” are doomed, and the future of AI agents.

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Ross Pomerantz (aka Corporate Bro) pulls back the curtain on turning sales cringe into viral gold. The ex-Oracle SDR turned B2B comedy king reveals how he monetizes corporate absurdity, why "scalable AI solutions" make audiences snooze, and how to survive when algorithms decide your career. Contains NSFW cold call stories, LinkedIn rage-bait truths, and why Salesforce pays him to roast CRMs.

Chapters with Timestamps

00:00–04:30

• From MLB dreams to Oracle’s cold call trenches: “My first prospect told me to blow him – and my manager said ‘that’s normal’”
• Why 2013 Vine videos mocking sales culture became accidental career fuel

04:30–15:00

• Influencer Economics 101: Turning “drowning in SaaS spam” into $500B brand partnership opportunities
• Why Salesforce pays him to clown CRMs: “They know I’ve suffered through 9,462 pipeline updates”

15:00–28:00

• AI’s Content Apocalypse: Why B2B marketers are “flooding the zone with bot-written bullshit”
• Survival Playbook: How to outlast AI-generated influencers and OnlyFans-for-CFOs nightmares

28:00–40:00

• The Algorithm Trap: Why LinkedIn rage bait dies faster than a SDR’s first quota
• Ross’s non-negotiables: “Never let brands own your content – unless they pay stupid money”

40:00–01:00:00

• Hot Takes: Why “product marketing language is corporate ASMR” and how to monetize exec foot pics (allegedly)

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Connecting your work to business outcomes is a phrase we hear more and more in product and growth. Here's how Mackenzie Hughes and Tara Goldman from Goldhue lay it out and why we can't sleep on this anymore.

Chapters with Timestamps

00:00-05:30 Meet the "Therapist for Type A Product Leaders" and the "Ops Whisperer"

• Tara Goldman's journey from VP of Product to coaching PMs on speaking executive
• Mackenzie Hughes' transition from GTM strategy to the "dark side" of product ops

05:30-15:00 The Great Disconnect: Why Product Teams Struggle with Business Impact

• The dangers of incentivizing output over outcomes
• Why most PMs can't answer "How much revenue do your ideas need to generate?"
• The critical importance of understanding churn at a granular level

15:00-30:00 Beyond Metrics: Building a Culture of Commercial Product Leadership

• Why having 40 metrics is worse than having none at all
• The power of driving a single metric through your entire organization
• Rethinking validation: "We've lost the art of experimentation"

30:00-45:00 The $5 Million Roadmap: Thinking Bigger (and Smarter) About Product Bets

• Why your product ideas need to generate 3-5x their cost (an article I recently wrote on this.)
• The counterintuitive truth: Bigger bets often require less upfront validation
• How to structure gates and learning milestones for major initiatives

45:00-60:00 Empowering Teams in an Age of Anxiety

• Why "empowered teams" is an overused term few actually implement
• How AI will shift the focus from shipping to go-to-market excellence
• Resources for product leaders looking to boost their business acumen

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What’s up with the disconnect between product teams and business goals? Why vibes won't pay the bills, and how product teams can avoid the "elephant graveyard" of low-impact work. If you've ever wondered how to align your work with business outcomes - or why your CEO might be the "support worker of the board" - this one's for you.

Chapters with Timestamps

00:00–04:30

• The Vibes Economy: Why founders sell visions to investors but fail to communicate existential realities to their teams.
• The dangers of "pitch deck culture" infiltrating internal strategy.
• Matt's take: "Reality comes back to get you eventually."

04:30–15:00

• Product Teams vs. Corporate Reality: Why product managers need to embrace their role as business contributors.
• Leah and Matt discuss the importance of standing up to "Gary" (or sales) while staying revenue-focused.
• Gut vs. Data: Are vibes just pattern recognition in disguise?

15:00–28:00

• Simplifying Strategy: How Matt helps teams draw a direct line from their work to company goals.
• Christina Wodtke's "Radical Focus" approach: Orbiting company goals instead of cascading confusion.
• Real-world example: Turning multi-product chaos into measurable customer lifetime value gains.

28:00–40:00

• The Cost of Low Impact Work: Why Product Managers Must Think Beyond Their Immediate Team Resources.
• Leah’s rule of thumb: A team’s roadmap should aim for $3–5M in value annually.
• Survival Metrics vs. Success Metrics: Knowing when to kill a project before it drains resources.

40:00–52:00

• The Eye of Sauron Effect: Why teams avoid high-impact work and how to overcome it.
• Aligning incentives across teams and leadership to prioritize meaningful outcomes.
• Matt’s advice: Treat your CEO like a customer—help them tell the story that aligns work with business success.

52:00–End

• Long-Term Planning vs. Cadence Chaos: Balancing five-year plans with three-month cycles and monthly check-ins.
• Leah’s warning: Don’t let sales hijack long-term plans for enterprise promises.
• Final thoughts on commercially-minded PMs being the happiest (and most impactful) ones.

Key Quotes

1. Matt LeMay: "If you were the CEO, would you fund this team? Twice in my career, asking that question has prompted a team to proactively disband itself."
2. Matt LeMay: "Don’t wait for a perfect strategy from leadership; connect your work directly to what the business cares about most."

Resources Mentioned

1. Books:
   • Impact First Product Teams by Matt LeMay (available now).
   • Radical Focus by Christina Wodtke (for goal alignment strategies).
2. Key Concepts:
   • Survival Metrics (via Adam Thomas).
   • The "Eye of Sauron" phenomenon in corporate environments.

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