People I (Mostly) Admire (Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher)

Climbing the corporate ladder to become head of Nike’s Jordan brand, he kept his teenage murder conviction a secret from employers. Larry talks about living in fear, accepting forgiveness, and why it was easier to be bookish behind bars.

When Freakonomics co-authors Steve Levitt and Stephen Dubner first met, one of them hated the other. Two decades later, Levitt grills Dubner about asking questions, growing the pie, and what he learned from Bruce Springsteen. 

Former professional poker player Annie Duke has a new book on Steve’s favorite subject: quitting. They talk about why quitting is so hard, how to do it sooner, and why we feel shame when we do something that’s good for us. 

How psychologist Dan Gilbert went from high school dropout to Harvard professor, found the secret of joy, and inspired Steve Levitt's divorce.

• SOURCE:
  • Daniel Gilbert, professor of psychology at Harvard University.

• RESOURCES:
  • "What the Data Says (and Doesn’t Say) About Crime in the United States," by John Gramlich (Pew Research Center, 2020).
  • Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress, by Stephen Pinker (2018).
  • "Mistakenly Seeking Solitude," by Nicholas Epley and Juliana Schroeder (Journal of Experimental Psychology, 2014).
  • "Just Think: The Challenges of the Disengaged Mind," by Timothy D. Wilson, David A. Reinhard, Erin C. Westgate, Daniel T. Gilbert, Nicole Ellerbeck, Cheryl Hahn, Casey L. Brown, and Adi Shaked (Science, 2013).
  • "The End of History Illusion," by Jordi Quoidbach, Daniel T. Gilbert, and Timothy D. Wilson (Science, 2013).
  • Happy Money: The Science of Smarter Spending, by Elizabeth Dunn (2013).
  • "If Money Doesn't Make You Happy Then You Probably Aren't Spending It Right," by Elizabeth W. Dunn, Daniel T. Gilbert, and Timothy D. Wilson (Journal of Consumer Psychology, 2011).
  • This Emotional Life, by Daniel Gilbert (2010).
  • Stumbling on Happiness, by Dan Gilbert (2006).
  • "Affective Forecasting," by Timothy D. Wilson and Daniel T. Gilbert (Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, 2003).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Drawing from Life (and Death)," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Who Gives the Worst Advice?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Am I Boring You?" by Freakonomics Radio (2015).

In this interview, first heard on Freakonomics Radio last year, Steve talks with the former top adviser to presidents Clinton and Obama, about his record — and his reputation. And Rahm explains that while he believes in the power of the federal government, as former mayor of Chicago, he says that cities are where problems really get solved.

Moon Duchin is a math professor at Cornell University whose theoretical work has practical applications for voting and democracy. Why is striving for fair elections so difficult? 

• SOURCE:
  • Moon Duchin, professor of mathematics at Cornell University.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Gerrymandering: The Origin Story," by Neely Tucker (Timeless: Stories from the Library of Congress, 2024).
  • "Redistricting for Proportionality," by Gabe Schoenbach and Moon Duchin (The Forum, 2023).
  • "The Atlas Of Redistricting," by Aaron Bycoffe, Ella Koeze, David Wasserman, and Julia Wolfe (FiveThirtyEight, 2018).
  • "In a Comically Drawn Pennsylvania District, the Voters Are Not Amused," by Trip Gabriel (The New York Times, 2018).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Why Are Boys and Men in Trouble?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Is This the Future of High School?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals founder Ingrid Newkirk has been badgering meat-eaters, fur-wearers, and circus-goers for more than 40 years. For a woman who’s leaving her liver to the president of France in her will, she sounds quite sensible when she tells Steve what we can learn from animals, why she supports euthanasia, and who’ll get her other organs. 

• SOURCE:
  • Ingrid Newkirk, founding president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Paradoxical Gender Effects in Meat Consumption Across Cultures," by Christopher J. Hopwood, Jahn N. Zizer, Wiebke Bleidorn, et al. (Nature Scientific Reports, 2024).
  • "PETA President Bequeaths Her Rump to a Reality Show," (PETA.org, 2023).
  • Animalkind: Remarkable Discoveries about Animals and Revolutionary New Ways to Show Them Compassion, by Ingrid Newkirk (2020).
  • "One Last U.S. Medical School Still Killed Animals to Teach Surgery. But No More," by Darryl Fears (The Washington Post, 2016).
  • "The Naked and the Dead," by Katie Glass (The Times, 2013).
  • "The Betrayal of 'No-Kill' Sheltering," by Ingrid Newkirk (PETA YouTube channel, 2013).
  • "The Lab-Monkey Controversy That Launched the Animal-Rights Movement," by Caroline Fraser (The New Yorker, 1993).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Peter Singer Isn’t a Saint, But He’s Better Than Steve Levitt," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Bruce Friedrich Thinks There’s a Better Way to Eat Meat," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • Project Donor.

The Power of Habit author Charles Duhigg wrote his new book in an attempt to learn how to communicate better. Steve shares how the book helped him understand his own conversational weaknesses.

• SOURCES:
  • Charles Duhigg, journalist and author.

• RESOURCES:
  • Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, by Charles Duhigg (2024).
  • "2023 Word of the Year Is 'Enshittification,'" by the American Dialect Association (2024).
  • "When Someone You Love Is Upset, Ask This One Question," by Jancee Dunn (The New York Times, 2023).
  • Smarter Faster Better: The Secrets of Being Productive in Life and Business, by Charles Duhigg (2016).
  • "The 36 Questions That Lead to Love," by Daniel Jones (The New York Times, 2015).
  • The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, by Charles Duhigg (2012).
  • "The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings," by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine N. Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee J. Bator (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 1997).

• EXTRAS:
  • "How Can You Get Closer to the People You Care About?" by No Stupid Questions (2023).
  • "How Do You Connect With Someone You Just Met?" by No Stupid Questions (2023).
  • "Can I Ask You a Ridiculously Personal Question?" by Freakonomics Radio (2021).
  • "Amanda & Lily Levitt Share What It’s Like to be Steve’s Daughters," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Marina Nitze: 'If You Googled ‘Business Efficiency Consultant,’ I Was the Only Result,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "How to Be More Productive," by Freakonomics Radio (2016).
  • Frozen, film (2013).

Columbia astrophysicist David Helfand is an academic who does things his own way — from turning down job security to helping found a radically unconventional university. 

Steve shows a different side of himself in very personal interviews with his two oldest daughters. Amanda talks about growing up with social anxiety and her decision not to go to college, while Lily speaks candidly about her battle with anorexia and the conversation she had with Steve that led her to seek treatment. 

• SOURCES:
  • Lily Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt.
  • Amanda Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt.

• RESOURCES:
  • Can I Ask You a Question? by Amanda Levitt (2020).
  • "Does “Early Education” Come Way Too Late?" Freakonomics Radio (2018). 

• EXTRAS:
  • NEDA Crisis Support.

In addition to publishing best-selling books about pregnancy and child-rearing, Emily Oster is a respected economist at Brown University. Over the course of the pandemic, she’s become the primary collector of data about Covid-19 in schools. Steve and Emily discuss how she became an advocate for school reopening, how economists think differently from the average person, and whether pregnant women really need to avoid coffee.

She is one of the best basketball players ever. She’s won multiple championships, including five Olympic gold medals and four W.N.B.A. titles. She also helped negotiate a landmark contract for the league’s players. Sue Bird tells Steve Levitt the untold truth about clutch players, her thoughts about the pay gap between male and female athletes, and what it means to be part of the first gay couple in ESPN The Magazine’s Body Issue.  

• SOURCE:
  • Sue Bird, former professional basketball player.

• RESOURCES:
  • "‘We’re Betting on Ourselves’: Why WNBA’s Landmark New Deal Is a Huge Win for Women’s Professional Sports," by Percy Allen (The Seattle Times, 2020).
  • "Sue Bird & Megan Rapinoe," (ESPN The Magazine Body Issue, 2018).
  • "Missed Shots at the Free-Throw Line: Analyzing the Determinants of Choking Under Pressure," by Mattie Toma (Journal of Sports Economics, 2015).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Marc Davis Can’t Stop Watching Basketball — But He Doesn’t Care Who Wins," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "The Hidden Side of Sports," series by Freakonomics Radio (2018-19).
  • "The True Story of the Gender Pay Gap," by Freakonomics Radio (2016).

Nobel Prize winner Joshua Angrist explains how the draft lottery, the Talmud, and West Point let economists ask — and answer — tough questions.

As a neuroscientist and psychology professor at Columbia University who studies the immediate and long-term effects of illicit substances, Carl Hart believes that all drugs — including heroin, methamphetamines, and cocaine — should be legalized. Steve talks to Carl about his new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, and Carl tells Steve why decriminalizing drugs is as American as apple pie.

Under his helm, the TED Conference went from a small industry gathering to a global phenomenon. Chris and Steve talk about how to build lasting institutions, how to make generosity go viral, and what Chris has learned about public speaking.

• SOURCE:
  • Chris Anderson, head of TED.

• RESOURCES:
  • Infectious Generosity: The Ultimate Idea Worth Spreading, by Chris Anderson (2024).
  • TED Talks: The Official TED Guide to Public Speaking, by Chris Anderson (2016).
  • "The Best Stats You've Ever Seen," by Hans Rosling (TED, 2006).
  • "Do Schools Kill Creativity?" by Sir Ken Robinson (TED, 2006).
  • "Close-Up Card Magic With a Twist," by Lennart Green (TED, 2005).
  • "The Freakonomics of Crack Dealing," by Steve Levitt (TED, 2004).
  • ZoeCoral.com.

• EXTRAS:
  • "Giving It Away," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "We Can Play God Now," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Self-Help for Data Nerds," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Steven Pinker: 'I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).

His childhood dream of playing in the N.B.A. led him to a career as a referee. Marc is one of the league’s top performers after over 20 seasons, but he still reviews every single one of his calls. He talks with Steve about being scrutinized by players, fans, and management; how much work — and data — go into being fair; and why he talks about race with his colleagues and his kids.

He’s a cognitive neuroscientist and philosopher who has written five best-selling books. Sam Harris also hosts the Making Sense podcast and helps people discover meditation through his Waking Up app. Sam explains to Steve how to become spiritual as a skeptic and commit to never lying again.

How psychologist Dan Gilbert went from high school dropout to Harvard professor, found the secret of joy, and inspired Steve Levitt's divorce.

When she's not rescuing chickens from coyotes, Susan Athey uses economics to address real-world challenges — from online ad auctions to carbon capture technology.

She’s the C.E.O. of Zoox, an autonomous vehicle company. Steve asks Aicha about the big promises the A.V. industry hasn’t yet delivered — and the radical bet Zoox is making on a driverless future. Plus, Steve wants to know how she’s maintained her spark.

Seth Stephens-Davidowitz combs through mountains of information to find advice for everyday life.

Harvard economist Raj Chetty uses tax data to study inequality, kid success, and social mobility. He explains why you should be careful when choosing your grade school teachers — and your friends. 

Obi Felten used to launch projects for X, Google’s innovation lab, but she’s now tackling mental health. She explains why Steve’s dream job was soul-destroying for her, and how peer support could transform the therapeutic industry.

She spent nearly a decade as an undercover C.I.A. operative working to prevent terrorism. More recently, she hosted The Business of Drugs on Netflix. Amaryllis Fox — now Kennedy — explains why intelligence work requires empathy, and she soothes Steve’s fears about weapons of mass destruction.

Steve shows a different side of himself in very personal interviews with his two oldest daughters. Amanda talks about growing up with social anxiety and her decision to not go to college, while Lily speaks candidly about her battle with anorexia and the conversation she had with Steve that led her to finally seek treatment.

Kate Douglass is a world-class swimmer and data scientist who’s used mathematical modeling to help make her stroke more efficient. She and Steve talk about why the Olympics were underwhelming, how she won gold, and why she won’t be upset to say goodbye to the pool.

• SOURCE:
  • Kate Douglass, Olympic swimmer and graduate student.
  • RESOURCES:
  • "Kate Douglass HOLDS OFF Tatjana Smith to win 200m breaststroke | Paris Olympics" (NBC Sports, 2024).
  • “The Plane Partition Function Abides by Benford’s Law,” by Katherine Douglass and Ken Ono (UPB Scientific Bulletin, Series A, 2024).
  • “Swimming in Data,” by Katherine Douglass, Augustus Lamb, Jerry Lu, Ken Ono, and William Tenpas (The Mathematical Intelligencer, 2024).
  • "Why Some Olympic Swimmers Think About Math in the Pool," by Jenny Vrentas (The New York Times, 2024).

• EXTRAS:
  • "The Language of the Universe," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

He argues that personal finance is so simple all you need to know can fit on an index card. How will he deal with Steve’s suggestion that Harold’s nine rules for managing money are overly complicated? Harold and Steve also talk about gun violence — a topic Harold researches as a public-policy professor at the University of Chicago — and they propose some radical ideas for reducing it.

Jonathan Levin is an academic economist who now runs one of the most influential universities in the world. He tells Steve how he saved Comcast a billion dollars, why he turned down Steve’s unusual pitch to come to the University of Chicago, and why being a nice guy makes him a better college president.

• SOURCE:
  • Jonathan Levin, president of Stanford University.  

• RESOURCES:
  • "Income Segregation and Intergenerational Mobility Across Colleges in the United States," by Raj Chetty, John N Friedman, Emmanuel Saez, Nicholas Turner, and Danny Yagan (The Quarterly Journal of Economics, 2020).
  • "Jonathan Levin: The Most Recent John Bates Clark Medal Winner," by Steve Levitt (Freakonomics Blog, 2011).
  • "Winning Play in Spectrum Auctions," by Jeremy Bulow, Jonathan Levin, and Paul Milgrom (NBER Working Paper, 2009).
  • "Information and Competition in U.S. Forest Service Timber Auctions," by Susan Athey and Jonathan Levin (Journal of Political Economy, 2001).

• EXTRAS:
  • Vintage Pokémon card pack Instagram video, by Tyler Thrasher (2025).
  • "Higher Education Is Broken. Can It Be Fixed?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "How Much Are the Right Friends Worth?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

The legendary venture capitalist believes the same intuition that led him to bet early on Google can help us reach net-zero carbon emissions by 2050. But Steve wonders why his plan doesn’t include a carbon tax.

The documentary filmmaker, known for The Civil War, Jazz, and Baseball, turns his attention to the Holocaust, and asks what we can learn from the evils of the past.

He graduated high school at 14, and by 23 had several graduate degrees and was a research assistant with Stephen Hawking. He became the first chief technology officer at Microsoft (without having ever studied computer science) and then started a company focused on big questions — like how to provide the world with clean energy and how to optimize pizza-baking. Find out what makes Nathan Myhrvold’s fertile mind tick, and which of his many ideas Steve Levitt likes the most.

The Columbia neuroscientist and psychology professor Carl Hart believes that recreational drug use, even heroin, methamphetamines, and cocaine, is an inalienable right. Can he convince Steve?

Linguist and social commentator John McWhorter explains how good intentions may be hurting Black America — and where the word “motherf*cker” comes from.

He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, but things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used game theory to stage a victory on Survivor.

• SOURCES:
  • Yul Kwon, vice president of product management at Google.

• RESOURCES:
  • Teacher Application for ASU Prep Tempe.

• EXTRAS:
  • "Are Our Tools Becoming Part of Us?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Yul Kwon: 'Hey, Do You Have Any Bright Ideas?' (Part 2)," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Robert Axelrod on Why Being Nice, Forgiving, and Provokable are the Best Strategies for Life," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

Steve usually asks his guests for advice, whether they’re magicians or Nobel laureates. After nearly 60 episodes, is any of it worth following — or should we just ask listeners instead?

How likely is it that this conversation is happening in more than one universe? Should we worry more about Covid or about nuclear war? Is economics a form of “intellectual prostitution?” Steve discusses these questions, and more, with Max, an M.I.T cosmologist, physicist, and machine-learning expert — who was once almost an economist. He also tells Steve why we should be optimistic about the future of humanity (assuming we move Earth to a larger orbit before the sun evaporates our oceans).

Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope.

Sal Khan returns to discuss his innovative online high school’s first year — and Steve grills a member of the school’s class of 2026 about what it’s really like.

Robert Solow is 98 years old and a giant among economists. He tells Steve about cracking German codes in World War II, why it’s so hard to reduce inequality, and how his field lost its way. 

In her book, Rumbles, medical historian Elsa Richardson explores the history of the human gut. She talks with Steve about dubious medical practices, gruesome tales of survival, and the things that medieval doctors may have gotten right.

• SOURCE:
  • Elsa Richardson, medical historian at the University of Strathclyde.

• RESOURCES:
  • Rumbles: A Curious History of the Gut: The Secret Story of the Body's Most Fascinating Organ, by Elsa Richardson (2024).
  • Michael Levitt retirement speech (2024).
  • "Was There Really a Hawthorne Effect at the Hawthorne Plant? An Analysis of the Original Illumination Experiments," by Steven D. Levitt and John A. List (NBER Working Paper, 2009).
  • "Floating Stools — Flatus versus Fat," by Michael D. Levitt and William C. Duane (The New England Journal of Medicine, 1972).
  • "Factors Influencing Pulmonary Methane Excretion in Man," by John H. Bond, Rolf R. Engel, and Michael D. Levitt (Journal of Experimental Medicine, 1971).
  • The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals, by Charles Darwin (1872).
  • The Levitt Lab Founding School Leader, job listing.
  • The Levitt Lab, information page.

• EXTRAS:
  • "An Update on the Khan World School," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • “Is This the Future of High School?” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • “Sal Khan: ‘If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People,'” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "The Power of Poop," by Freakonomics Radio (2011).

The author of the classic The Selfish Gene is still changing the way we think about evolution.

• SOURCE:
  • Richard Dawkins, professor emeritus of the public understanding of science at Oxford University.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Genetic Book of the Dead, by Richard Dawkins (2024).
  • Flights of Fancy: Defying Gravity by Design and Evolution, by Richard Dawkins (2021).
  • "About Three-in-Ten U.S. Adults Are Now Religiously Unaffiliated," by Gregory A. Smith (Pew Research Center, 2021).
  • Cuckoo: Cheating by Nature, by Nick Davies (2015).
  • The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins (2006).
  • "Why the Universe Seems So Strange," by Richard Dawkins (TED Global, 2005).
  • "Surprising Stats About Child Carseats," by Steve Levitt (TED Global, 2005).
  • "Genes and Memes," by John Maynard Smith (London Review of Books, 1982).
  • The Extended Phenotype: The Long Reach of the Gene, by Richard Dawkins (1982).
  • The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins (1976).
  • "Child Endowments and the Quantity and Quality of Children," by Gary Becker and Nigel Tomes (Journal of Political Economy, 1976).
  • "Selective Pecking in the Domestic Chick," by Richard Dawkins (University of Oxford Ph.D. thesis, 1966).

• EXTRAS:
  • "The World’s Most Controversial Ornithologist," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Is Gynecology the Best Innovation Ever?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

He’s one of the world’s leading neuroscientists, with a focus on the physiological effects of stress. (For years, he spent his summers in Kenya, alone except for the baboons he was observing.) Steve asks Robert why we value human life over animals, why he’s lost faith in the criminal-justice system, and how to look casual when you’re about to blow-dart a very large and potentially unhappy primate.

He’s the chief creative officer of Pixar, and the Academy Award-winning director of Soul, Inside Out, Up, and Monsters, Inc. Pete Docter and Steve talk about Pixar’s scrappy beginnings, why it costs $200 million to make an animated film, and the movie moment that changed Steve’s life.

Philosopher Will MacAskill thinks about how to do as much good as possible. But that's really hard, especially when you're worried about humans who won't be born for many generations.

Psychologist Thomas Curran argues that perfectionism isn’t about high standards — it’s about never being enough. He explains how the drive to be perfect is harming education, the economy, and our mental health.

He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, where he helped build tools to track the spread of COVID-19. But things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used his obsession with game theory to stage a come-from-behind victory on Survivor.

He’s been an Arctic scientist, a sports journalist, and is now a best-selling author of science books. His latest, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, makes the argument that early specialization does not give you a head start in life. David and Steve talk about why frustration is a good sign, and why the 10,000-hour rule is definitely not a rule.

He’s a professor of computation and behavioral science at the University of Chicago, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and author. Steve and Sendhil laugh their way through a conversation about the importance of play, the benefits of change, and why we remember so little about the books we’ve read — and how Sendhil’s new app solves this problem.

Steve Levitt is obsessed with golf — and he’s pretty good at it too. As a thinly-veiled ploy to improve his own game, Steve talks to two titans of the sport: Greg “The Shark” Norman, who was the world’s top-ranked golfer for more than six years; and Mark Broadie, a Columbia professor whose data analysis changed how pros play the game.

Ellen Langer is a psychologist at Harvard who studies the mind-body connection. She’s published some of the most remarkable scientific findings Steve has ever encountered. Can we really improve our physical health by changing our mind?

• SOURCE:
  • Ellen Langer, professor of psychology at Harvard University.

• RESOURCES:
  • Brave New Words: How AI Will Revolutionize Education (and Why That's a Good Thing), by Sal Khan (2024).
  • "F.D.A.’s Review of MDMA Cites Health Risks and Study Flaws," by Andrew Jacobs and Christina Jewett (The New York Times, 2024).
  • The Mindful Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health, by Ellen Langer (2023).
  • "Physical Healing as a Function of Perceived Time," by Peter Aungle and Ellen Langer (Nature: Scientific Reports, 2023).
  • "Aging as a Mindset: A Study Protocol to Rejuvenate Older Adults With a Counterclockwise Psychological Intervention," by Francesco Pagnini, Cesare Cavalera, Ellen Langer, et al. (BMJ Open, 2019).
  • Counterclockwise: Mindful Health and the Power of Possibility, by Ellen Langer (2009).
  • "Mind-Set Matters: Exercise and the Placebo Effect," by Alia Crum and Ellen Langer (2007).
  • "The Effects of Choice and Enhanced Personal Responsibility for the Aged: A Field Experiment in an Institutional Setting," by Ellen Langer and Judith Rodin (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1976).

• EXTRAS:
  • "The Future of Therapy Is Psychedelic," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Extra: An Update on the Khan World School," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Is This the Future of High School?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "What It Takes to Know Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Sal Khan: 'If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Caverly Morgan: 'I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).
  • "Does 'As If' Thinking Really Work?" by No Stupid Questions (2020).
  • "Havana Wild Weekend," S28.E7 of The Simpsons (2016).

It was only in his late twenties that America’s favorite brainiac began to seriously embrace his love of trivia. Jeopardy!’s newest host also holds the show’s “Greatest of All Time” title. Steve digs into how Ken trained for the show, what it means to have a "geographic memory," and why we lie to our children.

He’s an M.I.T. cosmologist, physicist, and machine-learning expert, and once upon a time, almost an economist. Max and Steve continue their conversation about the existential threats facing humanity, and what Max is doing to mitigate our risk. The co-founder of the Future of Life Institute thinks that artificial intelligence can be the greatest thing to ever happen to humanity — if we don’t screw it up.

He’s tried to shake up the status quo — as a Democratic presidential candidate, a New York City mayoral candidate, and now the founder of the Forward party. Will his third try be the charm? Andrew talks with Steve about what it’s like to lose an election and why a third political party might be the best chance for avoiding a new civil war. 

The prisoner’s dilemma is a classic game-theory problem. Robert, a political scientist at the University of Michigan, has spent his career studying it — and the ways humans can cooperate, or betray each other, for their own benefit. He and Steve talk about the best way to play it and how it shows up in real world situations, from war zones to Steve’s own life.

The author of Sapiens has a knack for finding the profound in the obvious. He tells Steve why money is fiction, traffic can be mind-blowing, and politicians have a right to say stupid things in private.  

Thomas Hildebrandt is trying to bring the northern white rhinoceros back from the brink of extinction. The wildlife veterinarian tells Steve about the far-out techniques he employs, why we might see woolly mammoths in the future, and why he was frustrated the day the Berlin Wall came down.

• SOURCES:
  • Thomas Hildebrandt, head of the department of reproduction management at the Leibniz Institute for Zoo and Wildlife Research and professor of wildlife reproduction medicine at the veterinary faculty of the Freie Universität Berlin.

• RESOURCES:
  • "An Inside Look at the Embryo Transplant That May Help Save the Northern White Rhino," by Jeffrey Kluger (TIME, 2024).
  • "Mud, Bugs, and Dung: How Rhinos Shape Their World," by Rinjan Shrestha (World Wildlife Fund, 2022).
  • "The Last Two Northern White Rhinos On Earth," by Sam Anderson (The New York Times Magazine, 2021).
  • "Embryos and Embryonic Stem Cells From the White Rhinoceros," by Thomas B. Hildebrandt, Robert Hermes, Cesare Galli, et al. (Nature Communications, 2018).
  • "Loss of a Species – A Giant, Extinct," by Thomas Hildebrandt (TED, 2017).
  • Colossal.

• EXTRAS:
  • "Why Do We Still Teach People to Calculate?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "What’s Stopping Us From Curing Rare Diseases?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2023).
  • "We Can Play God Now," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

For 37 years, Rick Doblin has been pushing the F.D.A. to approve treating post-traumatic stress disorder with MDMA, better known as Ecstasy. He tells Steve why he persisted for so long, why he doesn’t like calling drug use “recreational,” and what he learned from his pet wolf. 

RESOURCES:

• "MDMA-Assisted Therapy for Moderate to Severe PTSD: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Phase 3 Trial," by Jennifer M. Mitchell, Marcela Ot’alora G., Bessel van der Kolk, Scott Shannon, Michael Bogenschutz, Rick Doblin, et al. (Nature Medicine, 2023).
• "MDMA Therapy Inches Closer to Approval," by Rachel Nuwer (The New York Times, 2023).
• "Psychedelics Reopen the Social Reward Learning Critical Period," by Romain Nardou, Edward Sawyer, Young Jun Song, Gül Dölen, et al. (Nature, 2023).
• "The Social Costs of Keystone Species Collapse: Evidence from the Decline of Vultures in India," by Eyal Frank and Anant Sudarshan (SSRN, 2023).
• "Global Health, Climate Change and Migration: The Need for Recognition of 'Climate Refugees,'" by Saverio Bellizzi, Christian Popescu, Catello M. Panu Napodano, Maura Fiamma, and Luca Cegolon (Journal of Global Health, 2023).
• "Comparison of Prolonged Exposure vs Cognitive Processing Therapy for Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Among U.S. Veterans," by Paula P. Schnurr, Kathleen M. Chard, Josef I. Ruzek, et al. (JAMA Network Open, 2022).
• "MDMA-Assisted Therapy for Severe PTSD: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Phase 3 Study," Jennifer M. Mitchell, Michael Bogenschutz, Alia Lilienstein, Charlotte Harrison, Rick Doblin, et al. (Nature Medicine, 2021).
• "Inner City Blues: Children Raised in Inner-Cities Face Comparable PTSD Causing Conditions and Consequences as Military Veterans and Deserve Our Attention," by Eric Citizen (SSRN, 2019).
• "Intergenerational Transmission of Trauma Effects: Putative Role of Epigenetic Mechanisms," by Rachel Yehuda and Amy Lehrner (World Psychiatry, 2018).
• "Durability of Improvement in Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Symptoms and Absence of Harmful Effects or Drug Dependency After 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine-Assisted Psychotherapy: A Prospective Long-Term Follow-Up Study," by Michael C. Mithoefer, Mark T. Wagner, Rick Doblin, et al. (Journal of Psychopharmacology, 2013).
• "RETRACTED: Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA ('Ecstasy')," by George A. Ricaurte, Jie Yuan, George Hatzidimitriou, Branden J. Cord, and Una D. McCann (Science, 2002).

EXTRAS:

• "Why Aren’t All Drugs Legal? (Replay)," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
• "Can the Big Bad Wolf Save Your Life?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022).
• "How Are Psychedelics and Other Party Drugs Changing Psychiatry?" by Freakonomics Radio (2020).

SOURCES:

• Rick Doblin, founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS).

She’s best known for playing neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler on The Big Bang Theory, but the award-winning actress has a rich life outside of her acting career, as a teacher, mother — and a real-life neuroscientist. Steve Levitt tries to learn more about this one-time academic and Hollywood non-conformist, who is both very similar to him and also quite his opposite.

The African-born economist has written four bestselling books, including Dead Aid, which Bill Gates described as “promoting evil.” In her new book about corporate boards, Dambisa uses her experience with global corporations to explore how they can better meet society’s demands. And she explains to Steve why, even as a Harvard and Oxford-educated economist, her goal in life might sound “a little bit like a Miss America pageant.”

Ken Ono is a math prodigy whose skills have helped produce a Hollywood movie and made Olympic swimmers faster. The number theorist tells Steve why he sees mathematics as art — and about his unusual path to success, which came without a high school diploma.

• SOURCE:
  • Ken Ono, professor of mathematics and STEM adviser to the provost at the University of Virginia.

• RESOURCES:
  • "‘Digital Twins’ Give Olympic Swimmers a Boost," by Katherine Douglass, Augustus Lamb, Jerry Lu, Ken Ono, and William Tenpas (Scientific American, 2024).
  • "Swimming in Data," by Katherine Douglass, Augustus Lamb, Jerry Lu, Ken Ono, and William Tenpas (The Mathematical Intelligencer, 2024).
  • "Integer Partitions Detect the Primes," by William Craig, Jan-Willem van Ittersum, and Ken Ono (PNAS, 2024).
  • The Man Who Knew Infinity, film by Matt Brown (2015).
  • "Proof of the Umbral Moonshine Conjecture," by John F. R. Duncan, Michael J. Griffin, and Ken Ono (Research in the Mathematical Sciences, 2015).
  • "Ramanujan's Ternary Quadratic Form," by Ken Ono and K. Soundararajan (Inventiones Mathematicae, 1997).

• EXTRA:
  • "Richard Dawkins on God, Genes, and Murderous Baby Cuckoos," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

He’s an economist who studies even weirder things than Steve. They discuss whether economics is the best of the social sciences, and why it’s a good idea to get a tattoo of a demand curve on your bicep.

Born in Morocco and raised mostly by a single mother, Moncef Slaoui is now one of the world’s most influential scientists. As the head of Operation Warp Speed — the U.S. government’s Covid-19 vaccine program — Slaoui has overseen the development and distribution of a new vaccine at a pace once deemed impossible. Steve Levitt finds out how the latest generation of vaccines improve on their predecessors, why “educated intuition” is important in innovation, and what we can do to be better prepared for future pandemics.

Claudia Goldin is the newest winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. Steve spoke to her in 2021 about how inflexible jobs and family responsibilities make it harder for women to earn wages equal to their male counterparts. 

SOURCES:

• Claudia Goldin, professor of economics at Harvard University.

He’s the chief creative officer of Pixar, and the Academy Award-winning director of Soul, Inside Out, Up, and Monsters, Inc. Pete Docter and Steve talk about Pixar’s scrappy beginnings, why wrong turns are essential, and the movie moment that changed Steve’s life.

• SOURCE:
  • Pete Docter, chief creative officer of Pixar.

• RESOURCES:
  • "‘Inside Out 2’ Becomes the Highest-Grossing Animated Film of All Time Globally," (The Walt Disney Company, 2024).
  • Soul, film (2020).
  • The Red Turtle, film (2016).
  • Inside Out, film (2015).
  • Up, film (2009).
  • Monsters, Inc., film (2001).
  • Toy Story, film (1995).
  • Paper Moon, film (1973).

• EXTRA:
  • "Walt Hickey Wants to Track Your Eyeballs," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

The director of the Hayden Planetarium is one of the best science communicators of our time. He and Steve talk about his role in reclassifying Pluto, bad teachers, and why economics isn’t a science.

• SOURCE:
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium.

• RESOURCES:
  • Starry Messenger: Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization, by Neil deGrasse Tyson (2022).
  • “The Universe and Beyond, with Stephen Hawking,” by Neil deGrasse Tyson (StarTalk, 2018).
  • The Pluto Files: The Rise and Fall of America's Favorite Planet, by Neil deGrasse Tyson (2009).
  • "Pluto's Not a Planet? Only in New York," by Kenneth Chang (The New York Times, 2001).
  • The Sky Is Not the Limit: Adventures of an Urban Astrophysicist, by Neil deGrasse Tyson (2000).
  • Merlin's Tour of the Universe, by Neil deGrasse Tyson (1989).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Richard Dawkins on God, Genes, and Murderous Baby Cuckoos," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

Boys and men are trending downward in education, employment, and mental health. Richard Reeves, author of the book Of Boys and Men, has some solutions that don’t come at the expense of women and girls. Steve pushes him to go further.

• SOURCE:
  • Richard Reeves, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, and author.

• RESOURCES:
  • Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It, by Richard Reeves (2022).
  • "The Crisis of Men and Boys," by David Brooks (The New York Times, 2022).
  • Dream Hoarders: How the American Upper Middle Class Is Leaving Everyone Else in the Dust, Why That Is a Problem, and What to Do About It, by Richard Reeves (2017).
  • "An Empirical Analysis of the Gender Gap in Mathematics," by Roland Fryer and Steven Levitt (American Economic Journal: Applied Economics, 2010).
  • John Stuart Mill: Victorian Firebrand, by Richard Reeves (2007)

• EXTRA:
  • "What Is the Future of College — and Does It Have Room for Men? (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2024).

The creator of "The Wire", "The Deuce", and other shows is leading the Writers Guild on the picket lines. He and Steve break down the economics of TV writing, how A.I. could change television, and why he’s taking a stand even though he’s at the top of the game.

At 27— and without a college degree — she was named chief technology officer of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Today, Marina Nitze is trying to reform the foster care system. She tells Steve how she hacked the V.A.’s bureaucracy, opens up about her struggle with Type 1 diabetes, and explains how she was building websites for soap opera stars when she was just 12 years old.

By cataloging the steady march of human progress, the Harvard psychologist and linguist has become a very public intellectual. But the self-declared “polite Canadian” has managed to enrage people on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Steve Levitt tries to understand why.

He’s a pioneer of using randomized control experiments in economics — studying the long-term benefits of a $1 health intervention in Africa. Steve asks Edward, a Berkeley professor, about Africa’s long-term economic prospects, and how a parking-ticket-scandal in New York City led to a major finding on corruption around the world.

The dean of Yale’s School of Management grew up in a small village in Guyana. During his unlikely journey, he has researched video-gaming habits, communicable disease, and why so many African-Americans haven’t had the kind of success he’s had. Steve Levitt talks to Charles about his parents’ encouragement, his love of Sports Illustrated, and how he talks to his American-born kids about the complicated history of Blackness in America.

Monica Bertagnolli went from a childhood on a cattle ranch to a career as a surgeon to a top post in the Biden administration. As director of the National Institutes of Health, she’s working to improve the way we find new treatments — despite regulatory constraints and tight budgets.

• SOURCE:
  • Monica Bertagnolli, director of the National Institutes of Health.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Steven Levitt and John Donohue Defend a Finding Made Famous by 'Freakonomics'," by Steven Levitt and John Donohue (The Economist, 2024).
  • "Why 'Freakonomics' Failed to Transform Economics," (The Economist, 2024).
  • "Steven D. Levitt (Freakonomics Co-Author and U Chicago Econ Prof) on His Career and Decision to Retire From Academic Economics," by Jon Hartley (The Capitalism and Freedom in the Twenty-First Century Podcast, 2024).
  • "Why Autoimmune Disease Is More Common in Women: X Chromosome Holds Clues," by Elie Dolgin (Nature, 2024).
  • "Casgevy and Lyfgenia: Two Gene Therapies Approved for Sickle Cell Disease," by Carrie MacMillan (Yale Medicine News, 2023).
  • "Fact Sheet: President Biden Reignites Cancer Moonshot to End Cancer as We Know It," (2022).
  • "Mini-Antibodies Discovered in Sharks and Camels Could Lead to Drugs for Cancer and Other Diseases," by Mitch Leslie (Science, 2018).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Who Pays for Multimillion-Dollar Miracle Cures?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2023).
  • "What’s Stopping Us From Curing Rare Diseases?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2023).
  • "Abortion and Crime, Revisited (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2022).
  • "John Donohue: 'I’m Frequently Called a Treasonous Enemy of the Constitution,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

Bestselling author James Nestor believes that we can improve our lives by changing the way we breathe. He’s persuasive enough to get Steve taping his mouth shut at night. He explains how humans dive to depths of 300 feet without supplemental oxygen, and describes what it’s like to be accepted into a pod of whales.

• SOURCES:
  • James Nestor, author and journalist.

• RESOURCES:
  • Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art, by James Nestor (2020).
  • Deep: Freediving, Renegade Science, and What the Ocean Tells Us about Ourselves, by James Nestor (2014).
  • "Open Your Mouth and You’re Dead," by James Nestor (Outside Magazine, 2012).
  • "The Brain on Sonar — How Blind People Find Their Way Around With Echoes," by Ed Yong (National Geographic, 2011).
  • "How I Held My Breath for 17 Minutes," by David Blaine (TED Talk, 2009).
  • Project CETI.

• EXTRA:
  • Data Science for Everyone Survey.

Soil scientist Asmeret Asefaw Berhe could soon hold one of the most important jobs in science. She explains why the ground beneath our feet is one of our greatest resources — and, possibly, one of our deadliest threats.

Physicist Helen Czerski loves to explain how the world works. She talks with Steve about studying bubbles, setting off explosives, and how ocean waves have changed the course of history.

• SOURCE:
  • Helen Czerski, physicist and oceanographer at University College London.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Blue Machine: How the Ocean Works, by Helen Czerski (2023).
  • "Ocean Bubbles Under High Wind Conditions – Part 1: Bubble Distribution and Development," by Helen Czerski, Ian M. Brooks, Steve Gunn, Robin Pascal, Adrian Matei, and Byron Blomquist (Ocean Science, 2022).
  • "When It Comes to Sucking Up Carbon Emissions, ‘The Ocean Has Been Forgiving.’ That Might Not Last," by Bella Isaacs-Thomas (PBS NewsHour, 2022).
  • "Ocean's Hidden Heat Measured With Earthquake Sounds," by Paul Voosen (Science, 2020).
  • "Why Is the Ocean so Important for Climate Change?" by Kathryn Tso (MIT Climate Portal, 2020).
  • "Issues Brief: Ocean Deoxygenation," by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (2019).
  • "Behold the Bubbly Ocean," by Helen Czerski (Physics World, 2017).
  • Storm in a Teacup: The Physics of Everyday Life, by Helen Czerski (2016).
  • "Research Highlight: Scripps and the Science Behind the D-Day Landings," by James Vazquez and Mario C. Aguilera (Scripps Institution of Oceanography, 2014).
  • "A Mechanism Stimulating Sound Production From Air Bubbles Released From a Nozzle," by Grant B. Deane and Helen Czerski (Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 2008).
  • "β-δ Phase Transition During Dropweight Impact on Cyclotetramethylene-Tetranitroamine," by Helen Czerski, M. W. Greenaway, William G. Proud, and John E. Field (Journal of Applied Physics, 2004).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Reading Dostoevsky Behind Bars," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Can Data Keep People Out of Prison?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Joshua Jay: 'Humans Are So, So Easy to Fool,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

Harvard economist Claudia Goldin and Steve talk about how inflexible jobs and family responsibilities make it harder for women to earn wages equal to their male counterparts. But could Covid actually level the playing field?

From baseball card conventions to Walmart, John List has always used field experiments to say revolutionary things about economics. He explains the value of an apology, why scaling shouldn’t be an afterthought, and why he moved to the private sector to stay at the forefront of science. 

She used to run a behavioral unit in the Obama administration, and now has a similar role at Google. Maya and Steve talk about the power (and limits) of behavioral economics and also how people respond to change — the topic of her new podcast A Slight Change of Plans.

She’s the author of the bestselling book Grit, and a University of Pennsylvania professor of psychology — a field Steve says he knows nothing about. But once Angela gives Steve a quick tutorial on “goal conflict,” he is suddenly a fan. They also talk parenting, self-esteem, and how easy it is to learn econometrics if you feel like it.

The mathematician and author sees mathematical patterns everywhere — from DNA to fireflies to social connections.

Artist Wendy MacNaughton knows the difficulty of sitting in silence and the power of having fun. She explains to Steve the lessons she’s gleaned from drawing hospice residents, working in Rwanda, and reporting from Guantanamo Bay.

• SOURCE:
  • Wendy MacNaughton, artist and graphic journalist.

• RESOURCES:
  • "What Happens if Two Complete Strangers Draw Each Other?" video by the National Gallery of Art (2024).
  • How to Say Goodbye, by Wendy MacNaughton (2023).
  • "How to Have Fun Again," by Wendy MacNaughton (The New York Times, 2022).
  • "Inside America’s War Court: Clothing and Culture at Guantánamo Bay," by Carol Rosenberg and Wendy MacNaughton (The New York Times, 2019).
  • "Drawing the Guantánamo Bay War Court," by Wendy MacNaughton (The New York Times, 2019).
  • Think Like a Freak, by Steve Levitt and Stephen Dubner (2014).
  • DrawTogether.
  • The Grown-Ups Table.
  • Zen Caregiving Project.
  • DrawTogether Strangers.

• EXTRAS:
  • "Rick Rubin on How to Make Something Great," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Sendhil Mullainathan Explains How to Generate an Idea a Minute (Part 2)," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

Steve Levitt has spent decades as an academic economist, “studying strange phenomena and human behavior in weird circumstances.” Now he’s turning his curiosity to something new: interviewing some of the most interesting, unorthodox people around — from actresses to athletes, authors to inventors. Here is a preview of Levitt’s new podcast, which premieres August 21st. New episodes every two weeks. “People I (Mostly) Admire” is a production of the Freakonomics Radio Network.

Ecologist Suzanne Simard studies the relationships between trees in a forest: they talk to each other, punish each other, and depend on each other. What can we learn from them?

A leading expert on the Reformation era, Brad, a University of Notre Dame professor, tells Steve about how the “blood gets sucked out of history,” and why historians and economists don’t quite see eye to eye.

Clementine Jacoby went from performing in a circus to founding a nonprofit that works to shrink the prison population. 

Avi Loeb is a Harvard astronomer who argues that we’ve already encountered extraterrestrial technology. His approach to the search for interstellar objects is scientific, but how plausible is his argument?

Author and YouTuber John Green thought his breakout bestseller wouldn’t be a commercial success, wrote 40,000 words for one sentence, and brought Steve to tears.

It was only in his late twenties that America’s favorite brainiac began to seriously embrace his love of trivia. Now he holds the “Greatest of All Time” title on Jeopardy! Steve Levitt digs into how he trained for the show, what it means to have a "geographic memory," and why we lie to our children.

The primatologist discusses the thrill of observing chimpanzees in the wild, the value of challenging orthodoxy, and why dying is her next great adventure.

• SOURCES:
  • Dr. Jane Goodall, GBE, founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and U.N. Messenger of Peace.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times, by Jane Goodall, Douglas Abrams, and Gail Hudson (2021).
  • Jane, by Brett Morgen (2017).
  • “Remembering My Mentor: Robert Hinde,” by Jane Goodall (2017).
  • The Soul of an Octopus: A Surprising Exploration into the Wonder of Consciousness, by Sy Montgomery (2015).
  • Dr. Spock On Parenting: Sensible, Reassuring Advice for Today’s Parent, by by Benjamin Spock, M.D. (2001).
  • The Mentality of Apes, by Wolfgang Kohler (1976).
  • “Miss Goodall and the Wild Chimpanzees,” (1965).

• EXTRAS:
  • Roots and Shoots.
  • Jane Goodall Hopecast.
  • The Jane Goodall Institute.
  • Grameen Foundation.
  • “A Cross Between Sherlock Holmes and Indiana Jones,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • “‘No One Can Resist a Jolly, Happy Pig,'” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

Steve is on a mission to reform math education, and Sarah Hart is ready to join the cause. In her return visit to the show, Sarah explains how patterns are everywhere, constraints make us more creative, and literature is surprisingly mathematical.

Astronomer Jill Tarter spent her career searching for extraterrestrial intelligence. She explains what civilizations from other planets could teach us about our own future.

Arnold Schwarzenegger has been a bodybuilder, an actor, a governor, and, now, an author. He tells Steve how he’s managed to succeed in so many fields — and what to do when people throw eggs at you.

• SOURCE:
  • Arnold Schwarzenegger, professional bodybuilder, actor, and former governor of California.

• RESOURCES:
  • Be Useful: Seven Tools for Life, by Arnold Schwarzenegger (2023).
  • "Arnold Schwarzenegger: Environmentalists Are Behind the Times. And Need to Catch Up Fast," by Arnold Schwarzenegger (USA Today, 2023).
  • Arnold, Netflix documentary (2023).
  • "Gubernatorial Recall Election Debate," (C-SPAN, 2003).
  • "Cinema: Best of '84: Cinema," (TIME, 1985).

• EXTRAS:
  • "This Is Your Brain on Pollution (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2022).
  • Twins, film by Ivan Reitman (1988).
  • The Terminator, film by James Cameron (1984).

Beatrice Fihn wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons. As Russian aggression raises the prospect of global conflict, can she put disarmament on the world's agenda?

A special episode: Steve reports on a passion of his. Most high-school math classes are still preparing students for the Sputnik era. Steve wants to get rid of the “geometry sandwich” and instead have kids learn what they really need in the modern era: data fluency. Originally broadcast on Freakonomics Radio, this episode includes an update from Steve about a project he launched to revamp the education system.

Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records.

RESOURCES:

• The Covenant of Water, by Abraham Verghese (2023).
• "Abraham Verghese’s Sweeping New Fable of Family and Medicine,” by Andrew Solomon (The New York Times, 2023).
• “Watch Oprah’s Emotional Conversation with Abraham Verghese, Author of the 101st Oprah’s Book Club Pick” (Oprah Daily, 2023).
• "How Indian Teachers Have Shaped Ethiopia's Education System," by Mariam Jafri (The Quint, 2023).
• “How Tech Can Turn Doctors Into Clerical Workers,” by Abraham Verghese (The New York Times Magazine, 2018).
• Cutting for Stone, by Abraham Verghese (2009).
• "Culture Shock — Patient as Icon, Icon as Patient," by Abraham Verghese (The New England Journal of Medicine, 2008).
• “The Cowpath to America,” by Abraham Verghese (The New Yorker, 1997).
• My Own Country: A Doctor's Story, by Abraham Verghese (1994).
• "Urbs in Rure: Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection in Rural Tennessee," by Abraham Verghese, Steven L. Berk, and Felix Sarubbi (The Journal of Infectious Diseases, 1989).

EXTRAS:

• "Are You Suffering From Burnout?" by No Stupid Questions (2023).
• "Would You Rather See a Computer or a Doctor?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2022).
• “How Do You Cure a Compassion Crisis?” by Freakonomics Radio (2020).
• The Citadel, by A. J. Cronin (1937).
• Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriet Beecher Stowe (1852).

SOURCES:

• Abraham Verghese, professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist.

Google researcher Blaise Agüera y Arcas spends his work days developing artificial intelligence models and his free time conducting surveys for fun. He tells Steve how he designed an algorithm for the U.S. Navy at 14, how he discovered the truth about printing-press pioneer Johannes Gutenberg, and when A.I. first blew his mind.

• SOURCE:
  • Blaise Agüera y Arcas, fellow at Google Research.

• RESOURCES:
  • Who Are We Now?, by Blaise Agüera y Arcas (2023).
  • "Artificial General Intelligence Is Already Here," by Blaise Agüera y Arcas and Peter Norvig (Noema Magazine, 2023).
  • "Transformer: A Novel Neural Network Architecture for Language Understanding," by Jakob Uszkoreit (Google Research Blog, 2017).
  • "Communication-Efficient Learning of Deep Networks from Decentralized Data," by H. Brendan McMahan, Eider Moore, Daniel Ramage, Seth Hampson, and Blaise Agüera y Arcas (arXiv, 2016).
  • "How PhotoSynth Can Connect the World's Images," by Blaise Agüera y Arcas (TED Talk, 2007).
  • "Has History Been Too Generous to Gutenberg?" by Dinitia Smith (The New York Times, 2001).

• EXTRAS:
  • "'My God, This Is a Transformative Power,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "How to Think About A.I.," series by Freakonomics Radio (2023).
  • "Satya Nadella’s Intelligence Is Not Artificial," by Freakonomics Radio (2023).
  • "Yul Kwon (Part 2): 'Hey, Do You Have Any Bright Ideas?'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Yul Kwon: 'Don’t Try to Change Yourself All at Once,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

She might not be a household name, but Suzanne Gluck is one of the most powerful people in the book industry. Her slush pile is a key entry point to the biggest publishers in the U.S., and the authors she represents have sold more than 100 million books worldwide. Steve Levitt talks with Gluck — his own agent — about negotiating a deal, advising prospective authors, and convincing him to co-write Freakonomics.

The economist Joseph Stiglitz has devoted his life to exposing the limits of markets. He tells Steve about winning an argument with fellow Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, why small governments don’t lead to more freedom, and why he’s not afraid to be an advocate.

• SOURCE:
  • Joseph Stiglitz, professor at Columbia University and chief economist at the Roosevelt Institute.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Road to Freedom: Economics and the Good Society, by Joseph Stiglitz (2024).
  • "Equilibrium in Competitive Insurance Markets: An Essay on the Economics of Imperfect Information," by Michael Rothschild and Joseph Stiglitz (The Quarterly Journal of Economics, 2010).
  • "Hirsh: The Missing Link on Obama's Economic Team," by Michael Hirsh (Newsweek, 2008).
  • Globalization and Its Discontents, by Joseph Stiglitz (2002).
  • Two Lucky People: Memoirs, by Milton Friedman and Rose Friedman (1998).
  • "On Value Maximization and Alternative Objectives of the Firm," by Sanford Grossman and Joseph Stiglitz (The Journal of Finance, 1977).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Remembering Daniel Kahneman," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Ninety-Eight Years of Economic Wisdom," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).

This new Jeopardy! host is best known for playing neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler on The Big Bang Theory, but she has a rich life outside of her acting career too, as a teacher, mother — and a real-life neuroscientist. Steve learns more about this one-time academic and Hollywood non-conformist, who is both very similar to him and also quite his opposite.

Jane McGonigal designed a game to help herself recover from a traumatic brain injury — and she thinks playing games can help us all lead our best lives.