Investigating the Post Office Scandal (Investigating the Post Office Scandal)

In which Rebecca, Nick and Silent Simon the Producer try to decide what the podcast should be called. And then they decide. And then Nick tries to explain the Post Office Horizon Scandal for people who may not be aware of it, and Rebecca talks about breaking the story back in 2009.

On 9 June 2022, Gillian Harrison and Richard Ormerod won their appeals against their convictions at Southwark Crown Court. They became the 74th and 75th Subpostmasters to have their convictions quashed. Rebecca and Nick went along to watch it happen and speak to Gillian, Richard and representatives from their legal firm, Hudgells. Rebecca and Nick start by discussing the awkwardness of being a journalist at a court case, then we hear about Gillian and Richard's criminal convictions and why the Post Office did not oppose their appeal. Then, an interview with Gillian and a second interview with Neil Hudgell, Executive Chairman of Hudgell solicitors. Neil talks about the wider issue of compensation and the apparent impasse between the Post Office and the Postmasters' legal representatives over how that compensation should be finalised. This interview was recorded before the Post Office and and Hudgells agreed to appoint a retired judge (Lord Dyson) to conduct an "early neutral evaluation" to decide on the issue of "non-pecuniary damages" (ie to reputation, health etc). 

On 6 July 2022, the statutory inquiry into the Post Office Horizon scandal held the first (see the video here) of two hearings into the issue of proper compensation for Subpostmasters at The Oval cricket ground. Rebecca and Nick went along and ended up interviewing David Enright from Howe and Co (a legal firm representing more than a hundred Subpostmasters at this inquiry) and Kevin Brown, whose wife Sharon is a member of the 555 High Court claimants who blew the scandal open in 2019.

Journalists Rebecca Thomson and Nick Wallis attend the Post Office Horizon Inquiry's second compensation hearing in Central London. Interviews with Flora Page, Seema Misra, Janet Skinner, Tracy Felstead and Parmod Kalia

A wide-ranging interview with Mark Baker, a long-serving Postmaster and CWU union rep, who has just announced his retirement. Mark posted a note on the CWU Postmasters facebook page stating that the Post Office has rendered the Post Office counter side of his retail business "totally unviable" due to what he calls "their scandalous remuneration system". He goes on to say "we will not allow our retail business to be damaged by the Post Office leeching off the income we derive from our retail side. Neither of us enjoy working in the Post Office anymore and we both have held a mantra throughout our working lives that we will not work in a job we no longer enjoy. We do not see a future for the Network. The Post Office are not prepared to change their ways and the Government has no plan for the Network it owns, except a managed - or mis-managed - decline."

In this interview Mark explains why he thinks this is the case and opens up about his NFSP past during the Post Office's prosecution spree. He also explains how he came to understand Horizon was not a reliable system, his departure from the NFSP and his work for the CWU helping Subpostmasters under the Post Office cosh.

Rebecca has been along to the Court of Appeal to witness five more Subpostmasters have their convictions quashed. She spoke to one of them - Richard Hawkes - about his ordeal. Rebecca has also interviewed legal blogger and academic Professor Richard Moorhead from Exeter University who has opened up an entire field of study based on the Post Office Scandal, particularly the legal failings which have been highlighted. Nick, on the other hand, is ill with what sounds like a suspicious dose of man-flue, and so has not contributed much to this episode other than sounding ill and needy.

Rebecca is holiday, but despite this she has helped put together a stunning Sunday Times piece and recorded an interview with Dr Hannah Quirk, a reader in criminal law at Kings College, London. Dr Quirk used to work at the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) and has an impressive breadth of knowledge on historical miscarriages of justice. She is obviously interested in the Post Office scandal and explains to Rebecca how it fits into other miscarriages of justice in the UK.

On 11 August there was a huge FOI drop thanks to the tireless efforts of  campaigner Eleanor Shaikh. You can read and/or download that report here, or just listen to barrister Paul Marshall, Rebecca Thomson and Nick Wallis discuss it. Paul also tells us why he wrote to the Director of Public Prosecutions outlining his concerns that there has been a Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice at the Post Office.

In this episode, John O'Sullivan, the recently elevated joint Subpostmaster of Borough Wash Post Office talks about his life working in his partner's Post Office for more than two decades, his childhood as a Jehovah's Witness and his Irish Rebel family history. John also explains his empathy for victims of the Post Office Horizon scandal and why he is focusing his attention on the NFSP and the Post Office hierarchy. Well worth a listen!

Lee was there right at the beginning, has seen it all and has campaigned hard every step of the way. How hard is to be a campaigner when you've been sapped of your energy and you have no funds to fight? Lee should be celebrating victory after helping Alan Bates lead 500+ claimants to victory at the High Court in 2019, but the reality is very different. Lee is a great talker and one of the true heroes of the Subpostmasters' campaign. He featured in Rebecca's original Computer Weekly article in 2009, and they are reunited 14 years after they first spoke to talk about the toll the campaign has taken on Lee, his family and the other affected Subpostmasters.

Tim Brentnall had his conviction quashed last year. Tim was the Postmaster in the tiny village of Roch in Pembrokeshire, Wales. Tim was in his twenties when he was convicted. Nick and Tim talk about the whole experience and Tim's reluctance to join the inquiry, his viral video when he gave his personal statement at the end of his hearing, and what he was doing travelling to the inquiry for a clandestine meeting earlier this week. All very intriguing. After Tim, Nick and Rebecca conduct an internal review of how the podcast is going and whether it's working or not. Then Nick announces he has a speaking gig to talk about his book at his local library. He is very proud.

Deirdre Connolly is a former Subpostmaster from County Tyrone in Northern Ireland. She was one of the 555 civil litigants who took the Post Office to the High Court and won. In 2010, Deirdre, who had successfully run her Post Office in Killeter without a problem for four years, was told she had a £15,000 discrepancy. She was suspended without pay on the spot. Deirdre was asked by a Post Offie investigator if she was working with the paramilitaries. A whispering campaign began in her local village. Deirdre's mental health fell apart. Her family suffered. She went bankrupt. After nine years of fighting, Deirdre received £11,000 as part of the 2019 High Court settlement fee. She has received nothing since, despite the government making a £19.5m pot of interim compensation available to the 555 in March this year, telling them they'd get their share in 'weeks'. Deirdre tells a good story and she's a great interviewee. The companion piece to this episode - The Compensation Catch - can be found on the Post Office Scandal website, here. Deirdre's witness statement to the Post Office inquiry can be found here. Her oral evidence to Sir Wyn Williams can be seen here.

In this episode, Nick speaks to Lance Nielsen (writer and co-director with Dickon Tolson) and Suzette Pluck (producer) of False Accounts, a satirical play about the Post Office Horizon scandal. Lance and Suzette talk about the difficulties of putting on a play without funding, choosing which Subpostmasters' stories will be told and naming the characters who will feature, and those who did not quite make the final cut. False Accounts premieres in Birmingham at the Old Joint Stock Theatre on 19 October, and then moves to the Questors Theatre in Ealing, West London on 1 November.

This is the episode to listen to if you want a 60 second précis of the Post Office Horizon scandal and want to get your head round the re-start to the Inquiry, which begins Phase 2 on Tuesday 11 October. Plus - Rebecca has an exclusive interview with David Enright from Howe and Co, the law firm representing the majority of Subpostmaster participants at the Inquiry. To keep this podcast going through the Inquiry, Nick and Rebecca have also launched a crowdfunding campaign, which you can donate to via the new postofficescandal.uk website. 

A monster week in the Post Office Scandal - Tony Blair knew the Horizon IT system was a disaster (and ordered his minions to make it not so), the finger-pointing began in earnest, Post Office internal legal advice revealed for the first time, plus interviews with Flora Page and Lee Castleton. This podcast is powered by crowdfunding. If you can spare a dime... https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/ 

Like watching a Greek tragedy or a car crash in slow motion. Rebecca and I sat and watched as an IT disaster was picked apart in granular detail at the Post Office Horizon inquiry. Also Nick has an exclusive on a witness demand for 'immunity' from prosecution at the inquiry and the reviews are in! Notices from the opening week of False Accounts - a satirical play about the scandal.

Keith Todd, former CEO of ICL (owned by Fujitsu) and Tony Oppenheim, former director of Pathway (later Horizon, owned by Fujitsu) get to work on trying to explain to the inquiry how they let the Horizon IT system  into the Post Office estate and how the Post Office were allowed to use data from that system to prosecute Subpostmasters for crimes they didn't commit.

Its part 2 of week 3 of phase two of the inquiry and three senior former executives from the Post Office and Fujitsu try to explain how they let the dodgy Horizon IT system out of the test labs and into the live Post Office estate where it wreaked havoc with Subpostmasters' businesses and lives. Rebecca and Nick pick over some of the key evidence and Nick plugs his live event with former Subpostmaster Pam Stubbs on 10 November at the Kenton Theatre in Henley on Thames. He promises to put the box office link in the podcast blurb, and look - here it is: https://kentontheatre.co.uk/event/the-great-post-office-scandal/

Another week of evidence from the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry concludes with a burning question still unanswered. Who at the Post Office decided to start using data from an obviously unstable IT system to criminally prosecute its own subpostmasters? The underlings didn't seem to know, the senior execs didn't seem to care. Rebecca Thomson and Nick Wallis pull it all apart for you.

We also promised you some links. Here you go...

The Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk

This is the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry website: https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

This is Rebecca's seminal 2009 Computer Weekly article which broke this story open: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240089230/Bankruptcy-prosecution-and-disrupted-livelihoods-Postmasters-tell-their-story

This is the link to come and see Nick and former Subpostmaster Pam Stubbs in Henley on Thames on 10 November: https://kentontheatre.co.uk/event/the-great-post-office-scandal/134078/

This is the link to buy an new updated paperback edition of Nick's book, The Great Post Office Scandal: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Before the summer Lord (James) Arbuthnot (or Baron Arbuthnot of Edrom to give him his full title) very kindly agreed to give up some time to talk to Rebecca and Nick about his involvement in the Post Office Horizon scandal. We finally caught up in October and have only just got round to publishing the final podcast. An hour wasn't quite long enough, but the good Lord did reveal some intriguing details we haven't heard before including the revelation he applied to the government to succeed Tim Parker as Chairman of the Post Office, and didn't even get an interview!

The Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk

Rebecca's substack page: https://rebeccathomson.substack.com

Lord Arbuthnot: https://members.parliament.uk/member/56/career

Come and see Nick and former Subpostmaster Pam Stubbs in Henley on Thames on 10 November: https://kentontheatre.co.uk/event/the-great-post-office-scandal/134078/

Come and see Nick and former Subpostmaster Ian Warren Norwich at the Playhouse on 21 November: https://norwichtheatre.org/whats-on/post-office-scandal-the-inside-story/

Buy an new updated paperback edition of Nick's book, The Great Post Office Scandal: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

This week Nick and Rebecca get under the bonnet of Fujitsu and watch various people chucking spanners around. They discover Fujitsu had a Special Horizon Laptop, that Fujitsu engineer Anne Chambers wasn't particularly happy about giving the evidence that helped bankrupt a Subpostmaster and that no one at Fujitsu cared much about Rebecca's 2009 investigation for Computer Weekly even though it suggested the company might be responsible for miscarriages of justice. As one Fujitsu manager - Mark Ascott - sneered, 'I tend not to believe what journalists write'. Hmm...

The Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk

Rebecca's substack page: https://rebeccathomson.substack.com

Come and see Nick and former Subpostmaster Ian Warren Norwich at the Playhouse on 21 November: https://norwichtheatre.org/whats-on/post-office-scandal-the-inside-story/

Buy an new updated paperback edition of Nick's book, The Great Post Office Scandal: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Dave McDonnell becomes the most important witness of the second phase of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry so far by explaining in detail exactly how the Horizon system did not and would not work, how he told his bosses at Fujitsu and how they ignored his advice, sidelined him and rolled out a financial system into the Post Office estate, leaving it to wreak havoc on Subpostmasters. Nick and Rebecca trawl through two days of pretty intense evidence to bring you the audio highlights.

Inquiry website:

Dave McDonnell and Jan Holmes videos and transcript - Wed 16 Nov
Bob Booth and John Meagher video and transcript - Tue 15 Nov

Other links:

The Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk

Rebecca's substack page: https://rebeccathomson.substack.com

Come and see Nick and former Subpostmaster Ian Warren Norwich at the Playhouse on 21 November: https://norwichtheatre.org/whats-on/post-office-scandal-the-inside-story/

Buy an new updated paperback edition of Nick's book, The Great Post Office Scandal: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Our first former Secretary of State - Stephen Byers - and the first woman - Dr Sarah Graham - give evidence to Phase 2 of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. Nick and Rebecca have parsed the week's testimony to present all the newsworthy tidbits to you. We also promised  lots of links - so in the order in which they are mentioned in the podcast:

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

Tony Collins' excellent blog post on how a similar scandal is likely: https://ukcampaign4change.com/2022/10/07/most-of-the-underlying-causes-of-the-post-office-it-scandal-are-unfixable/

Karl Flinders' Computer Weekly piece on Horizon inquiry IT expert Charles Cipione's findings: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252527436/Post-Office-scandal-inquirys-expert-IT-witness-troubled-by-his-findings

Donate to keep us afloat! https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Have a look at the inquiry website! https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Buy Nick's book! https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Four more former Secretaries of State gave evidence in the final week of Phase 2 of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry as did former General Secretary of the National Federation of Subpostmasters, whose evidence was jaw-dropping. Colin Baker MBE told a Subpostmasters' barrister she shouldn't be asking what his organisation was up to whilst the Post Office was prosecuting his members over dodgy accounting data. Elsewhere Alan Johnson spoke about his days as a postie being watched by the feared Post Office Investigation Department goons and his disgust at the way Subpostmasters were prosecuted. He said if the NFSP had told him what was going on he would have put a stop to it immediately.

Donate to keep us afloat https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Inquiry website https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Buy Nick's book https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

A day of tedious technicality and extreme misery combined to flatten any Christmas cheer around central London on Thursday 8 December. Both Nic and Rebecca attended a special compensation hearing to find out that most things are a mess and going nowhere slowly. For the Subposmasters in attendance it was a very frustrating day. The one man with the power to do anything about this is the inquiry Chair, Sir Wyn Williams, but he wasn't saying anything. 

Please donate to keep this podcast in lunch money https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Post Office Horizon IT inquiry website https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Nick's book https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

Phase 3 of the inquiry begins with a statement on the running sore of Postmaster compensation (three schemes now running and counting) - we have news of Alan Bates, founder of the Justice for Subpostmasters' Alliance turning down an OBE - Nick has got his hands on the Altman Advice (or one of them, anyway) and oh yes - all the evidence from the inquiry itself. It's all go-ish. The inquiry evidence was a bit dull. 

In 2002, Baljit and Anjana Sethi (pictured), were trusted Subpostmasters in Essex. They were was sacked by the Post Office over a £17,000 discrepancy in one of their branches' accounts. The Sethis had successfully run a Post Office branch for more than 20 years. Baljit told the Brentwood Gazette at the time it was not their fault, rather it was down the Post Office's Horizon IT system. In 2019 the Sethis were proved right. Baljit and Anjana have been fighting for compensation for more than two years. They have yet to be made an offer, despite applying to the Post Office's Historical Shortfall compensation scheme in 2020. Baljit and Anjana's son Adeep has taken up their fight, and he tells us everything on this episode of Investigating the Post Office Scandal.

Link to the Brentwood Gazette 2002 article featuring Baljit and Anjana

Please donate to keep this podcast in lunch money https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Post Office Horizon IT inquiry website https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Nick's book https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

In which Nick interviews Nadhim Zahawi's nemesis, Dan Neidle, founder of Tax Policy Associates. Dan has recently waded into the Post Office Horizon Scandal, and is pretty sure at least one compensation scheme for victims of the scandal is unfair. Dan is a great talker and entertaining company. He talks about his career as a tax layer, The Downfall of Zahawi, SLAPPs and of course the Post Office. In the podcast we promise plenty of links to aid your understanding and reading, but before we do...

A CORRECTION. I say in the podcast the Overturned Historical Conviction Scheme was managed by the government. The Post Office have got in touch to tell me they are administering the OHCS. My apologies for putting this incorrect information in the podcast.

Right. Off we go:

The Daily Mail article about the appalling case of Francis Duff which prompted Dan's interest: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11745221/Postmaster-lost-Horizon-scandal-forced-hand-322k-compensation.html

Dan's first piece on the Tax Policy Associates website: https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/02/19/postoffice/

The new proposed legislation exempting two Post Office compensation schemes from tax: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/184/made

Dan's Times op-ed piece: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/taxing-post-office-victims-means-yet-more-humiliation-822tgtcd0

The Post Office's response (as discussed by Nick and Dan in the podcast): https://twitter.com/DanNeidle/status/1630113607731011585?s=20

Please donate to keep this podcast going: https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Post Office Horizon IT inquiry website:
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Nick's book: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

In which Nick, Rebecca and special guest Varchas Patel pick over the recent evidence to the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. One Fujitsu witness who worked on the Horizon Helpdesk described hearing colleagues shout about having 'another Patel scamming' on the phone again. We also discuss Nick and Varchas' experience of being trustees on the Horizon Scandal Fund, a charity set up by Nick's publisher, Bath Publishing, to help Subpostmasters and their families in need. Donate below!

Horizon Scandal Fund: https://www.horizonscandalfund.org/donate.html

Post Office Horizon IT inquiry website:
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk

Rebecca's Substack page: https://rebeccathomson.substack.com

Nick's Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Nick's book: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news

In which the Post Office Minister Kevin Hollinrake explains the new compensation scheme for Postmasters who were part of the High Court group litigation, declares the Historical Shortfall Scheme fit for purpose, says he wants people held to account over the Horizon scandal and appears ready to support a Duty of Candour law if it prevents something similar happening again. After the interview with Mr Hollinrake, Nick speaks once more to Lee Castleton, a likely applicant to the scheme, nineteen years to the day after Post Office auditors walked into Lee's branch and closed it down, setting him on the path to bankruptcy and ruining his life.

Government's compensation scheme for Group Litigation Subpostmasters: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compensation-scheme-for-group-litigation-order-case-postmasters

Post Office Horizon IT inquiry legal advice on bankruptcies:
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/legal-opinion-catherine-addy-kc-matters-relating-bankruptcy-and-compensation

A longer interview with Lee Castleton: https://audioboom.com/posts/8156279-ep-10-lee-castleton-justice-for-subpostmasters-alliance-founding-member

Rebecca's Substack page: https://rebeccathomson.substack.com

Nick's Post Office Scandal website: https://www.postofficescandal.uk/donate/

Nick's book: https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandal-updated-pbk

Rebecca's first investigation for Computer Weekly in 2009: https://www.computerweekly.com/news
Update Description

As both Nick and Rebecca were unable to attend the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry Compensation Hearing on 27 April, they thought it best to speak to some people who were. Sadly Rebecca was also unable to co-host the podcast so Nick brought in Professor Richard Moorhead from Exeter University (and member of the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board), Helen Lacey from Bath Publishing (and trustee of the Horizon Scandal Fund) and Robert Nicholson, Senior Editor at Whistledown Productions (and award-winning producer of the BBC's Great Post Office Trial series) to help talk around the issues raised.

The written submissions, youtube video and transcripts to Thursday's compensation hearing can all be found here on the Inquiry's website.

As promised in the podcast, this is the Horizon Scandal Fund website.

Prof Moorhead is currently recruiting a post-doc researcher who can help his team investigate the Horizon Scandal more fully. Apply here.

And here is a link to The Great Post Office Trial on BBC Sounds.

Rebecca and I were delighted to record an episode with Howe and Co partner David Enright, a lawyer who represents more than 100 Subpostmasters at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry. This is a proper wide-ranging chat covering Sir Wyn Williams compensation report, the Post Office disclosure debacle, bonusgate, restorative justice, whether ALL Post Office prosecutions should be re-examined, how long the inquiry will last and what it's like to be working at the coal face of a process like this.

Sir Wyn Williams' interim inquiry report on compensation

Howe and Co and other Core Participants' submissions on compensation

The Post Office's disclosure debacle

Howe and Co's website

Nick's interview with Post Office CEO Nick Read on BBC Sounds

Nick's recent Sunday Times piece

Lord Arbuthnot's call for all PO prosecutions to be revisited in Computer Weekly

The Post Office Scandal website

Nick and Rebecca interview Noel Thomas and Aled Gwyn Jôb, who with Sian Thomas have co-written a book about Noel's experience of being prosecuted by the Post Office for theft and false accounting.

The book is called The Stamp of Innocence. It has just been published and currently only available as an e-book from Amazon, but there are plans to make it available as a paperback, most likely early in 2024.

Noel has already published the Welsh language version of his story ("Llythyr Noel: Dal y Post"), which you can buy in paperback from www.gwales.com and of course, from all good Welsh language bookshops.

In the podcast Noel and Aled talk about the experience of putting the book together, read from both the Welsh and English versions and give their thoughts on the wider Post Office Scandal. Sian sadly had a sore throat so couldn't participate, but she set up the technology to make it all work in Ynys Môn/Anglesey.

Our thanks to Whistledown Productions for continuing to provide production support and assistance with our podcast project.

In which Nick is joined by Mark Baker, former Postmaster and CWU rep, and Ron Warmington, forensic accountant, fraud investigator and Chairman of Second Sight, which conducted the first independent investigation of the Post Office's Horizon system.

In which Nick interviews the former Post Office minister about his experience of taking office in the weeks after the Bates v Post Office settlement, overseeing the establishment of the Post Office Horizon Inquiry and the various compensation schemes.