Humans of Martech (Phil Gamache)
Explorez tous les épisodes de Humans of Martech
| Date | Titre | Durée | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 19 Apr 2022 | 53: Samar Owais: Rethinking your email discount strategy | 00:43:35 | |
What’s up everyone! Today on the show we’ve got one of my favorite email marketers and arguably the funniest marketing twitter account to follow, we’re joined by Samar Owais. She’s a top Email pro and female entrepreneur based in Karachi, Pakistan. She designs email strategies and writes email copy for SaaS & eCommerce clients with a simple goal: increase conversions and reduce churn. She isn’t your average consultant though. Samar is a model of courage and heart, known for being fiercely independent, doing excellent work, caring about results and always telling the truth. She’s worked with big brands like Drip, Pinterest and Hubspot, as well as solopreneurs like Paul Jarvis, Fix my churn, Copyhackers and a growing list of smaller Ecomm businesses. She runs an awesome email newsletter where she picks email fights and questions the status quo of how things are typically done in the email world. She also runs an ecomm bootcamp to help folks become email pros. Samar, we’re grateful to have you on the show. Pivot from content marketing to email Discounts and emails Do you ever make exceptions to your no discount rules like bundled discounts in dtc or shipping delays… How to email marketing - without using discounts, especially when your sales team is requesting them or you’re starting a role where it’s just business as usual? Email approach https://twitter.com/samarowais/status/1486534280725602305 Email should be owned by everyone at the company Growing traffic that’ll convert into email subs https://twitter.com/samarowais/status/1487200305515274245?s=20&t=nZYTI902PZupV-xvupvH7g Ecomm email bootcamp This is a very humble way of saying, “yo I’ve been doing this for 10+ years and I’ve crammed hundreds if not thousands of hours of experience and research into a digestible course so I can save you a shit ton of time.” Talk to us about your process for building an email course from scratch, how do you decide what’s important enough given the limited amount of content you can cover? follow-up: What are early signs that tell you someone has “it” https://twitter.com/samarowais/status/1489243917476192266 Saas bootcamp course one day? In all seriousness, many SaaS are completely blind to this and we don’t have to talk about the importance of understanding your customers but ‘how do you fix things’ with email, can you give us some practical examples? https://twitter.com/samarowais/status/1483513135499780097 Email newsletter platforms Who you don’t work with. “I’m not the email strategist and copywriter for you if you’re a tobacco, gambling, alcohol, or an arms and ammunition company.” What advice do you have for early freelancers that don’t want to work with specific companies but are afraid of being that bold this early? Girl educ... | |||
| 11 Jun 2024 | 123: Andrea Lechner-Becker: Creating content that people will give a f*ck about | 00:57:10 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Andrea Lechner-Becker, mostly retired CMO and Novelist. Summary: Andrea takes us on a wild ride filled with nuggets of wisdom, a few f-bombs and tons of laughs as she unpacks her deep understanding of marketing. Together, we explore how storytelling breathes life into content and why true enthusiasm for a product can transform marketing strategies. We navigate the crucial skills of recognizing patterns and forming strategic partnerships with finance departments. Andrea also sheds light on how flawed attribution methods can lead marketers to do dumb things, why investing in branding from the outset is table stakes and why marketers have what it takes to be outstanding martech sales reps. About Andrea
Andrea’s insight into the world of writing and fiction is both refreshing and straightforward. She starts by debunking the myth of the "aspiring" writer—declaring that anyone who writes is indeed a writer. This simple yet powerful affirmation encourages daily writing as a practice, not just a hobby, and stresses that writing is accessible to everyone, regardless of their goals. The creation of her novel, Willow, stems from her fascination with America’s Death with Dignity laws, a subject she finds both philosophically intriguing and politically complex. These laws allow terminally ill patients to end their lives under medical supervision, a right given more commonly to animals than to humans. Andrea's story sheds light on this contentious issue by weaving it into the fabric of her characters’ lives, making it more approachable and understandable. Through Willow, Andrea not only educates her readers about a delicate topic but also challenges them to rethink their positions. She shares feedback from readers who have shifted from staunch opposition to a more supportive stance—or at least to a reconsideration of their views—after connecting with her characters' journeys. Key takeaway: Fiction isn't just for entertainment; it can be a formidable ally in influencing public opinion and sparking debate on critical social issues. For marketers, Andrea's approach underscores the effectiveness of storytelling as a means to connect with audiences on a deeper level. By embracing narratives that reflect real-world challenges, marketers can create campaigns that resonate more profoundly with their audience, encouraging both engagement and reflection.
Andrea emphasizes the importance of going back to the basics in marketing, focusing on genuine human connections rather than overused jargon and AI-powered embellishments. She critiques the current state of B2B marketing, noting that many companies sound alike because they fail to make an effort to stand out. Drawing from Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Andrea highlights how understanding basic human motivations can enhance marketing strategies. She believes that businesses often overlook the importance of connecting on a personal level with customers, colleagues, and bosses. Her experiences at networking events reveal a lack of genuine engagement, prompting her to use specific conversational tools to foster meaningful interactions. Andrea uses a set of questions designed to deepen connections, which she adapts from psychologist Art Aaron's research. These questions help her navigate social interactions more effectively, especially as someone who identifies as introverted. Andrea argues that the lackluster approach to B2B marketing stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of marketing by those at the helm, particularly in large enterprises. She points out that many CEOs, often with backgrounds in finance rather than marketing, fail to grasp the essence of effective communication and its impact on sales and customer engagement. This gap in understanding leads to marketing strategies that do not resonate on a human level. She stresses the importance of conveying the 'benefit of the benefit' in marketing messages, using B2C strategies as a successful example. Instead of selling a product, companies should focus on selling the lifestyle or emotional benefits that the product enables. This approach is often neglected in B2B settings, where the focus might be too narrow or technical. Key takeaway: To stand out in the saturated B2B market, companies must prioritize genuine human connections and understand the underlying human needs of their audience. Marketers should strive to communicate not just the functional benefits of their products but also the emotional peace of mind they provide. By doing so, they can create more compelling, memorable marketing messages that resonate deeply with their customers, enhancing both engagement and loyalty.
Andrea vividly recalls her journey through the marketing world, from her educational roots to the exhilarating rush of launching campaigns and seeing the immediate impact of her work. With a twinkle in her eye, she talks about the magic of marketing—connecting people to products they'll hopefully love as much as she does. Even though she's stepped back from the front lines, her heart remains tied to the craft. After leaving a high-paced role, Andrea found joy in the simple pleasures of life, like spending time with her dog and tending to her orange trees. Yet, she still dedicates part of her time to sparking career growth in others through social media, teaching job seekers how to think of themselves as products ripe for the job market. Her methods are reminiscent of building a SaaS product—meticulous, thoughtful, and always aiming for scalability. Andrea's story is peppered with anecdotes of her early days in a dog art gallery, where she first realized the power of marketing. She could see the light in people’s eyes as they found joy in the art pieces she presented. This foundational experience shaped her belief that marketing, at its core, is about sharing passion. Whether she was working in a gallery or a tech firm, the essence of her approach didn’t change. Reflecting on her career, Andrea points out the profound impact passionate marketing has had on her colleagues' lives—transforming careers, enabling dreams, and changing life trajectories. It’s clear she sees marketing not just as a job but as a vital part of living a fulfilled life, a channel through which one can make a significant difference in both personal and professional realms. Key takeaway: Embrace the essence of marketing by sharing your genuine enthusiasm for the products or services you represent. This authentic connection not only enhances your marketing effectiveness but also enriches your professional life and touches those around you. Andrea’s story is a powerful reminder that at the heart of successful mark... | |||
| 31 Oct 2023 | 95: Battle of the CDPs: Packaged vs. Composable, 10 experts weigh in | 01:00:27 | |
What’s up everyone, today we’re taking a deep dive into customer data and the stack that enables marketers to activate it. We’ll be introducing you to packaged customer data platforms and the more flexible options of composable customer data stacks and getting different perspectives on which option is best. I’ve used both options at different companies and have had the pleasure of partnering with really smart data engineers and up and coming data tools and I’m excited to dive in. Here’s today’s main takeaway: The debate between packaged and composable CDPs boils down to a trade-off between out-of-the-box functionality and tailored flexibility, with industry opinions divided on what offers greater long-term value. Key factors to consider are company needs and data team size. But if you do decide to explore the composable route, consider tools that focus on seamless integration and adaptability rather than those who claim to replace existing CDPs. The 8 Core Components of Packaged CDPs: What the Experts Say A Customer Data Platform (CDP) is software that consolidates customer data from various sources and makes it accessible for other systems. The end goal is being able to personalize customer interactions at scale. I’ve become a big fan of Arpit Choudhury of Data Beats, he articulates the components of a packaged CDP better than anywhere I’ve seen in his post Composable CDP vs. Packaged CDP: An Unbiased Guide Explaining the Two Solutions In Detail. 8 packaged CDP components:
So in summary: Collect first party data and important data from other tools into a central database, id resolution, quality and compliance, finally having a segmentation engine and pushing that data to other tools. I asked recent guests if they agreed with these 8 components.
When asked about his definition of a packaged CDP, Boris elaborated on the role these platforms have carved for themselves in marketing tech stacks. To him, packaged CDPs are specialized tools crafted for marketers, originally in B2C settings. Their primary utility boils down to three main functions: data collection, serving as a reliable data source specifically for the marketing team, and data segmentation for targeted actions. The ability to gather data from various customer touchpoints, such as websites and apps, is crucial. These platforms act as the single source of truth for that data, ensuring that marketing teams can trust what they’re seeing. Finally, they provide the capability to dissect this data into meaningful segments that can be fed into other marketing tools, whether that’s advertising platforms or email marketing solutions. Though Boris mentioned the term “DMP,” it’s essential to differentiate it from a CDP. Data Management Platforms (DMPs) have historically been tied to advertising and don’t provide that rich, long-term profile a CDP can offer. The latter offers a more holistic view, allowing businesses to target their audience not just based on advertising metrics but on a more comprehensive understanding of consumer behavior. Key Takeaway: Packaged CDPs are functional units that collect, validate, and segment data for marketing utility. If you’re considering implementing an all-in-one CDP, look for these three core features: comprehensive data collection, a single source of truth for that data, and robust segmentation capabilities. Adding Predictive Modeling to Packaged CDPs When asked about her stance on 8 components of a packaged CDP, Tamara generally concurred but added nuance to each element. Starting with data collection and ending with data activation, she emphasized the critical nature of these components. Tamara also advocated for the necessity of drag-and-drop UI for audience segmentation, which paves the way for data democratization and self-service. Going beyond mere segmentation, Tamara revealed that her platform offers insights dashboards. These aren’t just Business Intelligence (BI) tools; they help marketers understand segment overlaps and key performance indicators, which further empower them to design more efficient campaigns. Her approach involves offering two types of audience segmentations: rule-driven and machine learning (ML) driven. The latter is a distinct component that allows clients to construct audiences based on predictive models, and it’s an option that has gained traction especially among mid-market businesses. Tamara also touched upon a salient point regarding large enterprises. Even these giants can benefit from predictive tools when dealing with new data sets they hadn’t previously accessed. Collaboration with their in-house data science teams ensures the quality and reliability of this predictive modeling. Key Takeaway: A well-designed CDP should not just offer data collection and segmentation but also facilitate data activation and provide actionable insights. Whether you’re a large enterprise or a mid-sized business, the predictive modeling feature in some modern CDPs offers a fast track to gain valuable insights into your audience. Keep an eye out for these extended functionalities when evaluating a CDP for your business. The Importance of Data Quality and Governance When asked about his agreement with the often-cited eight components of a packaged Customer Data Platform (CDP), Michael did more than just nod in approval. He concurred that these elements are, at a minimum, the pillars of first-generation CDPs. Yet, he warned that very few platforms are strong across all these functionalities, giving his own platform as an exception for its comprehensiveness. According to Michael, a robust CDP is not just a collection of features but an integrated system where the entire value is greater than its individual parts. Diving de... | |||
| 13 Oct 2020 | 03: Why you need a computer sign-in sheet | 00:19:57 | |
We’re not responsible enough to have unregulated internet usage. We need to be deliberate about our tool usage. We use the tool, not the other way around. One of the main points Cal Newport makes in his book DM is that the key to thriving in our high-tech world is to spend much less time using technology. A carpenter uses a hammer, the hammer doesn’t use them. Is the same true of digital marketers? We get sucked into our device and end up providing value to social media platforms, news site, content providers; not to ourselves, not to our employers. Digital minimalism could mean something different to different people. For some, it has nothing to do with the amount of tools you use but rather it's about how you make space to create and learn and be happy. But for some, and I think this is the case for you, it has everything to do with the amount of tools you use. It's getting rid of some of that clutter so you can focus on what's important. Think how much more productive you’d be if you had to go to a library to access the internet. I love the library analogy. It lends very well to the idea that it would force us to focus your online time on a small number of specific activities. And then happily miss out on everything else. As part of my digital declutter, I started a computer sign-in sheet to regular and filter my access. Here's how I set it up: * 4 columns; time, purpose, sites/apps, satisfaction * I fill in first 3 before every session. This forces me to really think about what I’m going to do during a work session; I plan my work and what tools I need to accomplish my job * After my work session, I rate my satisfaction. 10 is simple to get - I complete the task I set out to do and didn’t look at any other sites * Noticed my lower scores all came from session interrupted by Slack & Email; very interesting, when I scheduled that time on Slack & Email, I could still attain a 10; realized the problem wasn’t the tool, it was my relationship to it. I’m super productive and hitting all my deadlines; I only work 3 days a week and have rarely felt this type of sustained productivity, and I’d say I’m usually pretty productive and never miss deadlines. Biggest change for me was forcing me to spend time to plan out what to do in a work session. I'm good about planning my week, sometimes by days, but never tried work sessions. It’s really easy for me to tell when I need to think strategically about my priorities and refocus my to do list. Your computer is just a tool, and you should wield it with the same finesse and care as a carpenter; A carpenter always has a hammer in his or her belt but they’re don’t use it for anything other than pounding nails. What about those periods of time where you’re fucking around on reddit and you see something badass and it inspires you. You save it to your pocket, maybe you go back to it, maybe you don’t. But it’s it’s swipe file of shit that’s only there because of browsing. And you might be thinking cool but you can just schedule this reddit browsing time. But maybe the quality comes from the quantity of browsing. Maybe it’s just an excuse for using Reddit. Content is not king; your behaviour on the internet is; if your behaviour is different than your intentions when it comes to internet usage, it’s worth paying attention to. How can you be more intentional about your use of technology? Try a sign in sheet. | |||
| 22 Aug 2023 | 85: Arun Thulasidharan: Warehouse-native martech and an alternative pricing model | 00:46:08 | |
Summary: Arun clarifies 'warehouse-native' and 'connected' concepts, positioning Castled.io as a flexible solution that caters to specific customer needs. He addresses challenges in traditional martech, such as the disparity between customer base size and value derived, and presents Castled.io's unique solutions like an alternative pricing model and immediate data access. Arun navigates the issues of a warehouse-native approach, providing strategies for handling real-time data and minimizing compute charges. He cautions against seeing warehouse-native adoption as merely an escape from reverse ETL, emphasizing its potential to resolve existing martech problems and enhance functionalities. Arun encourages a positive attitude towards new, complex technologies, recognizing their transformative potential. About Arun
When asked about the transformational journey of Castled.io, Arun shed light on the genesis of the company's vision. It was a time when businesses wanted to move their data from warehouses to various tools, yet the market lacked the means to do this efficiently. Recognizing this gap, Arun embarked on the mission to develop an open source, reverse ETL solution. His concept was founded on the idea that no one-size-fits-all tool could cater to the wide range of companies' diverse requirements. This venture brought Castled.io a fair amount of traction, with many companies employing their open source solution in-house, and a growing clientele availing of their cloud-based offering. However, around this time, a critical analysis of the martech landscape provoked a pivot. Arun realized the long-term sustainability of reverse ETL solutions was questionable, especially with the burgeoning concept of warehouse-native apps. Other companies were beginning to develop their own reverse ETL tools. Arun observed that these ETL solutions were not truly designed for data teams but rather marketing growth teams, signaling a limitation in their scope. The need to constantly shift data to different platforms like Intercom was dwindling, given alternative and more efficient methods emerging in the martech ecosystem. In fact, he believed that the popularity of these reverse ETL solutions might begin to wane within a year. The most crucial feedback that inspired the transformation of Castled.io came directly from its target audience – the marketers. They indicated that a reverse ETL solution did not fully resolve their challenges, especially in scenarios where handling large amounts of data became a bottleneck for their existing tools. It became clear that simply copying data from warehouses to another tool wasn't an effective solution. Prompted by these revelations and the rising acceptance of the warehouse-native concept, Arun and his team decided to pivot. They transitioned from being an open-source reverse ETL tool provider to building Castled.io as a solution directly layered on top of data warehouses. This move allowed them to bypass data migration issues and directly cater to the marketers' needs. Takeaway: The journey of Castled.io highlights the importance of remaining adaptable and receptive to market changes and customer feedback. This awareness allowed the company to evolve from being an open-source reverse ETL tool to a robust, warehouse-native solution, directly addressing marketers' challenges. The company's pivot is a testament to strategic foresight and innovation in the martech space. The Similarities of Open vs Closed and Composable vs Packaged CDPs In the fiery debate around composed versus packaged CDPs, Arun weighed in with his unique viewpoint. He likened the contrast between these two approaches to the difference between open source and closed source systems. From Arun's perspective, the appeal of composable CDPs lies in the flexibility they offer. This format enables innovation on top of the data warehouse, unlike the constraints potentially imposed by a packaged system. If something isn't quite right, with a composable CDP, you're able to add more tables, create more transformations, and even integrate external tools. Arun cited examples like Mutuality and Thing, tools that perform identity resolution on top of the data warehouse. These systems, instead of operating deterministically, utilize fuzzy resolution. They identify rows that may be the same and join them together - an innovative process executed directly within the data warehouse. Such possibilities underscore the value of composable CDPs. Being locked into a closed system inhibits the ability to incorporate these innovations into one's data warehouse, a limitation he finds less appealing. Though there are countless other arguments surrounding this topic, Arun emphasizes this angle as one often overlooked in the broader conversation. Takeaway: In the composable vs. packaged CDP debate, Arun highlights the flexibility and potential for innovation offered by composable CDPs. By likening them to open-source systems, he underscores the opportunities to customize and integrate additional tools directly on top of the data warehouse, an often overlooked yet crucial consideration in the martech space. Unpacking the Definition of Warehouse-Native Martech When asked about the varying definitions in the martech space, particularly 'warehouse-native' and 'connected', Arun addressed these terms with a refreshingly pragmatic viewpoint. He observed that while the industry is caught up in different terminologies, often what doesn't fit into these boxes is what the customer actually wants. Arun described his understanding of warehouse-native as akin to the framework offered by Snowflake, where everything runs atop the data. A connected app, in his view, is one that separates compute and data - the data resides in a warehouse, not in the SaaS app, providing the flexibility we've discussed before. The actual computations happen on internal clusters, streamlining operations by removing the need for API integrations, enhancing consistency and security, and reducing data movement. Yet, for Arun, the appeal of warehouse-native martech extends beyond these definitions. The true advantage lies in its potential to transform data into a goldmine of information that can fuel powerful reporting and analytics. The ability to write data back to the data warehouse creates a wealth of opportunities for customers, a feature he deems as a significant boon of connected apps and warehouse-native tech. Despite these perspectives, Arun chooses not to classify Castled.io strictly as a warehouse-native or connected app. Instead, he emphasizes meeting customer needs. For some enterprise customers, the security of not moving data to an external system like Breeze or Iterable is paramount. Here, he sees val... | |||
| 05 Apr 2022 | 51: We're back for season 2! | 00:22:34 | |
What’s up folks – we’ve been away for a while but we’re back and in full swing for season 2 with even better content than season 1. Today we’re going to tease some of our early season 2 episodes and catch you up on what we’ve been up to since our break. JT, in August of last year, your world changed in two huge ways. Your wife gave birth to twin boys Felix and Clyde. You might hear them in the background of a few episodes as we usually coincide with feeding time. Man – a huge family of 6 now, 2 girls, 2 boys… are things starting to settle down a bit now having crossed the 6 month mark? As a hopeful parent one day myself, I have many questions, the first is: with your twin boys, did you ever mix up which baby was which and just went with it? Is it true that even in identical twins, belly buttons are always different and the best way to tell them apart? Walk me through the routine of managing a tsunami of children. When does Jon go to bed, between all the diaper changes, do you get any time for yourself, are you still finding yourself able to get up super early? You’ve said to me that having a 4th baby is like being handed a baby while you’re already treading water… Do you still agree that going from 0-1 is the biggest transition? Tell the listeners about your freaking sauna and how it’s changed your life LOL So after your parental leave – you took back the helm of leading Klipfolio’s marketing team. What’s exciting you the most about what the team is cooking up over there these days? Phil, you started at Automattic / WordPress.com in June last summer, you’re coming up on 10ish months now. Having only ever worked in startups before, how’s it been adapting to a 2,000+ person org? It’s been pretty wild honestly. Automattic is like a mini Berkshire Hathaway – a holding company of sorts that houses many different products and brands under one roof. I have colleagues that work on Woo Commerce (the open source Shopify), Tumblr (Taylor Swift’s favorite social media platform), and some that work with me on WordPress.com. But we also have WordPress VIP, JetPack, Long Reads, Simplenote and during my early days there we acquired PocketCasts (the best podcast app) and DayOne (a journaling app that I’ve been using for many years). So wpcom isn’t a 2,000 person company, we’re like 400 but yeah biggest marketing team I’ve ever been part of for sure. Biggest transition period for me was less about working with a bigger team and more about working asynchronously across multiple different teams. We use a tool called P2, its an open source collaboration app built on Gutenberg/WP and it’s how we mainly communicate with each other. Aside from a few HR emails, I don’t think I’ve ever had an email from a colleague. Everything is on P2 or on Slack. We do have some synchronous zoom calls, but any key decisions is always posted back on P2. Missed a week because of a vacation, you don’t need to have a colleague catch you up in a meeting, you have a nice list of unread P2 posts and you’re right back into it. It honestly feels like a different world… but I think it’s where the world is moving. What excites you the most about working at WP almost hitting the 1 year mark. I’ve sharpened my growth experimentation skills and my email copywriting skills but I find the product fascinating. I got to take a tiny part in rolling out FSE, WordPress’ big 5.9 update which came with some huge changes to the product. It’s already been downloaded by 60M sites across the world and it’s been really fun tagging along and seeing the next lineup of changes. So with all the stuff going on, we definitely leaned on guest episodes to start season 2 and we’ve got some big names, some folks are huge on twitter, some folks are c level in big tech, some are up and coming super stars, you know us, we've got a nice mix of folks with wide ranging topics and opinions. ✌️ -- | |||
| 16 Apr 2024 | 115: Amrita Mathur: ClickUp’s VP of Marketing on Optimizing for velocity of learning and balancing analytics with intuition | 00:51:55 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Amrita Mathur, VP of Marketing at ClickUp. Summary: Building a brand from zero is all about diving deep into what makes your audience tick and tailoring your messages to hit just right. Amrita digs into this, stressing the gold in blending hard data with your gut in order to spot what truly connects. It’s not about the immediate wins; it’s hunting for those less obvious cues that hint you’re on to something. When it comes to team-building, she’s clear: bring on board folks who are curious, the ones who ask all of the questions and are unafraid of constructive criticism. For Amrita, the secret sauce to thriving in marketing, beyond all the strategy and insights, boils down to enjoying the ride and the people you’re with, transforming work from a mere grind to an adventure worth every second. About Amrita
The Myth of the Ivory Tower in Tech Leadership The ethos at ClickUp, as Amrita describes, mirrors what’s often referred to as the ‘Stripe model’—a reference to Stripe’s renowned flat organizational structure. This approach ensures that despite rapid growth, the company maintains an environment where every individual, from interns to VPs, is expected to dive deep into the minutiae of their work. It’s a testament to the belief that understanding and engaging with the details are paramount to effectiveness. ClickUp’s CEO reinforces this by advocating for a culture where being ‘in the details’ is not just encouraged but required. This philosophy stands in stark contrast to what Amrita experienced towards the end of her tenure at Superside, where she could afford to step back, confident in her team’s ability to manage without her direct oversight. At ClickUp, the scenario is vastly different. The expectation to remain operationally involved means leadership roles are as much about rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty as they are about strategic oversight. The ClickUp model demonstrates a pivotal shift in how companies view leadership and organizational structure. It challenges the notion that senior positions are synonymous with distance from the day-to-day operations, highlighting the importance of a collaborative and transparent work environment. This approach not only ensures that leaders remain grounded and connected to their team’s work but also fosters a culture of accountability and shared responsibility. Key takeaway: At ClickUp, success is found not in the isolation of leadership roles but in their integration within the operational fabric of the company. This model serves as a compelling blueprint for marketers: to stay relevant and effective, immerse yourself in the granular aspects of your work, foster transparency, and maintain a willingness to engage across all levels of the organization. Choosing Between Testing and Informed Decision-Making For instance, the launch of ClickUp’s AI product, Click AppBrain, presented a scenario with zero initial traffic, making traditional A/B testing impractical at the outset. Instead, ClickUp opted for a bold approach, deviating from conventional landing page norms to create something distinctive and engaging. This strategy, as Amrita describes, is about ‘zagging’ when others ‘zig’, striving for uniqueness in a crowded marketplace. The success of their unconventional approach is evident in the substantial interest generated for their launch event, demonstrating that not all marketing initiatives need to be prefaced by rigorous testing. Amrita’s philosophy extends to broader marketing decisions, where not everything falls neatly into the ‘testing’ bucket. Certain endeavors, like sponsoring a podcast, defy straightforward measurement. The decision to proceed often hinges on understanding the audience and trusting the medium’s reach rather than on direct testing outcomes. This highlights the importance of leveraging different marketing disciplines to create compelling campaigns that might not initially lend themselves to A/B testing but are nevertheless rooted in strategic thinking. The approach to testing at ClickUp underlines a crucial balance between data-driven decision-making and intuitive marketing strategies. While A/B testing remains a valuable tool for optimizing conversions and understanding user behavior, Amrita’s insights remind us that marketing’s artistry lies in knowing when to rely on data and when to trust in creativity and market understanding. Key takeaway: Marketers should focus on cultivating an ability to discern which initiatives require validation through testing and which can advance based on informed hypotheses and innovative thinking. This approach not only streamlines decision-making but also encourages creativity and differentiation in a competitive landscape. Optimizing for Velocity of Learning in Early-Stage Marketing | |||
| 19 Mar 2024 | 111: Jessenia Francisco: Leading MOps at Asana and Lucidchart, feeding on your own martech and overcoming imposter syndrome | 00:52:22 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jessenia Francisco, Director, Marketing Operations at Lucid. Summary: Jessenia shares her journey from nonprofit to tech, emphasizing adaptability and purpose. She tackles imposter syndrome by fostering an inclusive culture, explores the strategic use of tools like Lucidchart in her own day to day, and advocates for mindful martech selection, particularly the integration of AI, balancing innovation with practicality. Her work with Women in Revenue underscores the power of mentorship in empowering women in revenue roles, highlighting the importance of community and strategic thinking for professional and personal growth. About Jessenia
Jessenia's career evolution from finance to the nonprofit sector was not just a job change; it was a pursuit of impact over income. She sought to make a tangible difference, moving away from the profit-focused dialogues of her finance days towards creating systemic change. This quest for purpose led her to the nonprofit world, where she found the work deeply rewarding. Reflecting on her journey, Jessenia realized she had been involved in operations long before it became a recognized field, combining her analytical skills with business operations even during her finance tenure. This foundation served her well in the nonprofit sector, allowing her to apply her skills to support community-driven initiatives. She was particularly moved by the stories of the communities she worked with, finding a profound connection to the people and the transformative changes her efforts contributed to. At NewSchools Venture Fund, Jessenia experienced the intersection of venture philanthropy and educational reform. This organization, pioneering in merging investment with educational innovation, aimed to disrupt traditional learning models. She was fascinated by project-based learning, as seen in a Napa school, where even kindergartners engaged in complex concepts like velocity and gravity. Such moments underscored the significant impact of strategic funding in education. The nonprofit sector also presented Jessenia with numerous growth opportunities, from implementing CRMs to leading marketing operations. These experiences built her expertise in sales and marketing operations, highlighting the sector's potential for rapid professional development. Jessenia appreciated the creative challenges and the "champagne taste on a beer budget" mentality, which taught her to maximize limited resources effectively. However, Jessenia also faced challenges, including under-resourcing in technology and potential career stagnation. The nonprofit world's inclination to deprioritize tech investments and the limitations in career growth posed significant hurdles. Additionally, leadership changes and political dynamics within organizations could disrupt projects and affect the effectiveness of operations work. Key Takeaway: Jessenia's narrative reveals the dual nature of nonprofit work: its capacity to fulfill a deep-seated need for purpose and impact, juxtaposed with the practical challenges of limited resources and career growth ceilings. Her journey highlights the importance of adaptability, creativity, and a steadfast focus on mission-driven work amidst these challenges.
Jessenia's career leap from niche nonprofits to tech giants like Asana and Lucid sheds light on the value and versatility of working in different organizational sizes. Initially joining Asana when it was a relatively small team of 350, she quickly dispelled the myth that smaller entities lack significance. Her experience at Asana, a company that grew from a "cult classic" to a major player, exemplifies the unique advantages of smaller companies, such as a close-knit work culture and rapid adaptability. Small companies, Jessenia notes, offer a level of intimacy and direct impact that larger organizations can struggle to match. From knowing a colleague's preference for Diet Coke to having the ability to influence business outcomes directly, these environments foster a sense of community and effectiveness. Yet, she also confronts the misconception that privilege and pedigree are absent in smaller settings. Even in a tight-knit team, backgrounds of privilege and elite education can influence dynamics, something Jessenia encountered firsthand. However, as companies grow, maintaining the essence of a smaller organization's culture poses challenges. Jessenia emphasizes the importance of meeting people and business needs as they evolve, advocating for empathy and adaptability in processes. She warns against being wedded to past solutions or technologies, stressing the need to tailor approaches to the organization's current context rather than relying on what worked elsewhere. Key Takeaway: Jessenia makes the point that smaller companies offer a richness of experience and that you will need a nuanced approach if transitioning to or scaling within larger tech companies. She highlights the importance of adaptability, empathy, and a keen understanding of the unique dynamics at play, offering insights into successfully navigating career transitions and fostering personal and professional growth in any organizational landscape.
Jessenia tackles imposter syndrome with a unique blend of emotional intelligence and mindful reflection. Instead of reacting on impulse, she takes time to process complex ideas, valuing collaboration over solitary effort. Recognizing when to ask for help has been crucial in her journey, turning potential hurdles into learning opportunities and stronger bonds with her colleagues. Her approach to leadership focuses on empowering her team, encouraging them to confidently express their insights and take ownership of their expertise. This method not only addresses imposter syndrome but also promotes a culture where accountability and teamwork thrive. Jessenia believes in the power of vulnerability and support, showing that admitting you don't know everything can be your greatest strength. Jessenia actively seeks out communities for both professional and personal growth, especially during challenging times like the COVID-19 pandemic. By engaging with networks, she ensures no one has to face difficulties alone, emphasizing the importance of collective wisdom and shared experiences. Key Takeaway: The cornerstone of her strategy against imposter syndrome lies in fostering environments where asking questions, seeking clarity, and valuing each team member's viewpoint are encouraged. This approach not only helps combat feelings of inadequacy but also strengthens the team's cohesion and effectiveness.
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| 24 Aug 2021 | 48: When to quit your job and follow your North Star | 00:34:32 | |
Whether you’ve got something lined up or you need a fresh start, quitting your job is a huge life decision, -- in today’s episode, we’ll cover signs to look out for that might be telling you it’s time to move on from your current role. Being successful and happy in martech requires having a true north for your career. Sometimes, that means recognizing that your current workplace isn’t helping you advance your career. It could be you’re not happy with your work culture or work for a bad manager; or, it could be that it’s time to move on to acquire the skills needed to reach the next level. Alright JT, I feel like this episode has been a long time in the making. We teased about it in the trailer, it’s something most people do a few times in their career; handing in that two weeks notice. But leaving a job isn’t always about leaving a bad workplace or boss. Sometimes you work for someone awesome at a great company, but it’s time to move on for your own progress. No one gets to decide that for you. You call the shots in your career. Leaving a job should be objective: Make a list of pros and cons when comparing two positions. What factors matter most to you? What are your goals? Knowing when to quit your job is about having a sense of your north star for your career. Having a north star for your career
For me, there’s many ways you can make this more complex for this but in its simplest form, the north star of your career is your vision for fulfilling 3 things: 1- Passion and meaning, something that motivates and energizes you That’s it, it’s a simple formula. It’s more guide posts. Early in your career, the 2nd factor is less important and usually the 3rd factor is less busy so you can double down on the first factor and discover your work passion and meaning. It’s okay to change your North star Career plans are meant to be flexible. My favorite part about the north star metaphor for career purposes is that the North star actually changes and it isn’t exactly north. The current north star is Polaris, but because the Earth’s axis shifts every several thousand years, different stars will serve as north stars. But also, the North Star isn’t exactly north. Polaris is the closest star to true north, and is "close enough" for most basic navigation purposes- So your career north Star can change and it doesn’t have to be super specific. Like our sailing ancestors, when we are lost at sea, it’s meant to guide us. We can always look up to the sky to reorient ourselves and get back on course. Example: Years 1-5, no salary objective. Only objective: trying shit out. Years 4-6, company objective; work with top talent in city Years 5-7, find a niche or dive into leadership Goals Advice: Have specific career goals every year or two, reset them. Maybe you joined a company as a marketing specialist with the goal of learning everything you can about their tech stack to one day become a marketing automation manager. That could be with that company, or another.
What does it mean to hit your ceiling and how do you know you’ve hit it? Is it when you staying in your comfort zone too often. “I learned everything I could” but did you? Is that even possible? Your career needs new stimuli:
At what point did you realize it was time to quit? What are the sure signs it’s time to leave a job?
You heard it here first folks,
So what’s your north star?
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| 23 Jan 2024 | 103: Britney Muller: Deciphering the alien nature and the ethical complexities of LLMs | 00:56:07 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with the acclaimed Britney Muller, Founder and Consultant at Data Sci 101 and former Senior SEO Scientist at Moz. Summary: Britney takes us on a wild ride through the intersection of marketing and AI, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and ethical considerations. Britney's journey from SEO to AI illustrates the need for data literacy and strategic decision-making in marketing. She delves into the ethical nuances of AI, discussing the limitations of LLMs and the importance of transparency and responsible development. Highlighting the human element in AI, Britney advocates for balancing technological advancements with human creativity and intuition, and underscores the transformative potential of AI across various sectors. This episode is a compelling call to action for professionals to harmoniously blend technical expertise with ethical mindfulness in the rapidly evolving martech landscape. About Britney
The pivotal moment came when she took the Harvard CS 109 course on machine learning. This experience opened her eyes to the transformative potential of feeding data to models and letting them learn patterns independently. The tangible results and potential applications she witnessed were not just intellectually stimulating but also professionally inspiring. As machine learning evolved, so did Britney's skills. She recalls the early days of TensorFlow, where complex lines of code were required for basic functions, which have now been simplified drastically. Britney's approach to machine learning is unique. She enjoys taking existing models and reengineering them for different applications, a process she describes as akin to being a 'Frankenstein developer.' This creative tinkering led to practical applications and fun experiments, like her first MNIST model, which could recognize handwritten numbers with high accuracy. Her pride in this achievement underscores her deep connection to her work and the joy it brings her. Key takeaway: Britney's transition from SEO to machine learning highlights the importance of pursuing passions and continuous learning in professional development. Her success stems from her willingness to embrace new challenges and innovate by reapplying existing technologies in novel ways. This story is a reminder that staying curious and adaptable is crucial in the ever-progressing field of martech. Data Literacy: Bridging the Gap in Marketing Her approach to education in this field is both innovative and practical. Britney focuses on creating content that is engaging and accessible, breaking down complex topics into understandable segments. She draws inspiration from her friend Daisy Quaker's approach, emphasizing the need to repurpose extensive resources into more digestible formats - akin to turning a large turkey into multiple turkey sandwiches. This analogy perfectly encapsulates her method of making complex data science concepts more palatable for the average marketer. Britney's journey in educating others began with her own realization of the lack of statistical training in her marketing career. This led her to delve deeper into data science, allowing her to identify and address the gaps in knowledge within the marketing community. Her efforts are not just about imparting knowledge but also about empowering marketers to leverage data more effectively in their strategies. Key takeaway: Britney's initiative with Data Sci 101 highlights the critical need for data literacy in the marketing world. Her commitment to educating her peers about the importance of statistical knowledge and her innovative approach to content creation serve as a model for making complex subjects accessible and engaging. This endeavor not only enhances the skill set of marketers but also paves the way for more data-informed and strategic decision-making in the industry. Deciphering the Alien Nature of Large Language Models Britney's approach to explaining complex concepts through relatable analogies reflects her commitment to making the abstract more accessible. Her use of post-it notes to jot down everyday analogies like baseball references showcases her inventive method of communication. This approach is crucial in a field where the technology is often abstract and difficult for the average person to grasp. “LLMs are essentially aliens from a different universe: while they have access to all our world’s text, they lack genuine comprehension of languages, nuances of our reality, and the intricacies of human experience and knowledge.” - Britney Muller, Introduction to LLMs, part 1. This alien analogy underlines a significant limitatio... | |||
| 14 Nov 2023 | 97: Lauren Aquilino: Alleviating burnout and recognizing the specialized skills in marketing ops | 00:50:02 | |
What’s up folks, today we’re joined by Lauren Aquilino, Founder & Principal Consultant @ EMMIE Collective. Summary: The essence of Lauren’s message transcends the specifics of MOPs; it's about the symbiosis between finding work that resonates on a personal level and the professional ecosystem that supports it. This is where fulfillment is found, and where problems are not just tasks but puzzles that invigorate the marketer. Her advice was not mere commentary but a call to action for marketing professionals to document their victories, engage with communities, and redefine the value of mops within their organizations, ensuring that the role is not just sustained but celebrated for its strategic importance. About Lauren
The Accidental Genesis of EMMIE Collective When Lauren delved into the creation story of EMMIE Collective, she shared a narrative that many entrepreneurs can resonate with—success often sprouts from the seeds of adversity. Lauren’s journey began not with a deliberate intention to start a martech freelancer network but as a response to the upheaval of COVID-19. The decision to step back from her role at Revenue Pulse was pivotal. Faced with the complexities of juggling work and a young family under the constraints of a pandemic, Lauren sought to keep everyone on one schedule. This pursuit of work-life balance inadvertently set the stage for EMMIE Collective’s inception. The ambition to purchase a church, a dream stemming from Lauren's passion for creating a communal third space, ironically nudged her back to work. Subcontracting for a friend in unfamiliar territory with Pardot became a catalyst for growth. Lauren’s adaptability and openness to learn were instrumental, emphasizing that it’s not the tools that define success, but the fit for the business and the individual’s capability to harness them effectively. What started as a solo venture quickly evolved, and Lauren found herself at the helm of a growing consultancy. Lauren’s story highlighted the organic nature of EMMIE Collective's expansion—how one client led to another, and how one consultant brought in another, embodying the adage of building the airplane while flying it. The addition of Sydney to the team was serendipitous, aligning perfectly with the needs of the collective. Her reputation and skills added significant value, illustrating the strength of forming strategic alliances based on mutual respect and opportunity. Key Takeaway: EMMIE Collective stands as a testament to the unexpected paths that lead to entrepreneurial success. It serves as a sanctuary for those who’ve grown weary of the corporate grind, offering a collaborative network that thrives on flexibility, respect, and mutual growth. Lauren’s experience is a reminder that sometimes, the best outcomes arise from the most challenging situations, and that embracing change can pave the way for unforeseen opportunities. The Multifaceted Benefits of Side Hustles in Marketing When Lauren was asked about the impact of side hustles on her career, she offered an insightful perspective that extends beyond the conventional wisdom. She champions the idea of side hustles not merely as additional streams of income but as avenues for personal fulfillment and professional development. Lauren's stance is that side hustles should be passion-driven endeavors, aligning with one's interests, such as yoga in her example, to ensure they serve as a complement rather than a detractor from one's quality of life. Lauren’s experience underlines the necessity for marketers to cultivate interests outside their core job, especially when their work is highly technical and the threat of feeling replaceable looms. In her view, this sense of replaceability is exacerbated when one's day job lacks a deeper sense of purpose or is entrenched in a profit-driven environment. Side hustles, therefore, can act as a counterbalance, offering a sense of uniqueness and value that one’s primary occupation might not provide. Moreover, Lauren's reflections on EMMIE Collective’s business model reveals the value of side hustles in creating a flexible work ecosystem. The collective’s freelancers, including a standout Salesforce admin named Nikki who also runs a skincare business, demonstrate that a side hustle can sometimes become the main hustle. This fluidity showcases how side hustles can evolve and adapt to one's changing career aspirations and personal goals. Key Takeaway: Lauren's discourse invites marketers to reassess the role of side hustles in their lives. It's not just about having a secondary job; it's about finding joy and purpose outside of one's primary employment. Side hustles can enhance skills, diversify income, and most importantly, provide a fulfilling escape from the replaceable nature of technical roles. For those looking to embark on such a journey, Lauren suggests seeking out passions that could lead to professional opportunities, creating a harmonious blend of work and personal satisfaction. EMMIE Collective's Answer to In-House Marketing Stability Lauren discussed the unique challenges in-house marketing teams face and how EMMIE Collective addresses them with its network of consultants. Her insights delve into the nuanced struggles of businesses desperate for stability in their marketing operations. Contrary to what one might expect, Lauren finds that clients are often open to the collective's unconventional setup, likely due to the network's reputation and the trust it engenders. The drive for stability is at the forefront of client concerns, especially as the market continues to wobble between a surplus of talent due to layoffs and a drought caused by high turnover. Lauren’s collective steps into this breach, not just offering expertise, but also a promise of consistency that's hard to find in the volatile job market. Where companies are grappling with the financial and operational repercussions of high turnover, EMMIE Collective provides a team that can absorb these shocks. Clients have embraced the collective’s model, finding comfort in the assurance that their operations will continue unimpeded, even if an individual consultant moves on. This safety net is particularly valuable in specialized areas where training and expertise are not easily replicated. Lauren shared an anecdote about a client who, instead o... | |||
| 10 Sep 2024 | 136: Benoit Leggieri: Livestorm’s Head of Growth on crafting revenue driving workflows with Customer.io | 00:48:57 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Benoit Leggieri, Head of Growth at Livestorm.
Livestorm’s Martech Stack Built for Personalization and Retention Livestorm’s martech stack is a powerhouse, meticulously crafted to enhance every stage of the customer journey. They use Customer.io, Hubspot, SEMRush, and Clay and Benoit unpacks a few other elements. The stack also features Amplitude, the go-to tool for analyzing website conversion rates. Amplitude also helps identify exactly where the user experience can improve, turning insights into action. Mutiny takes center stage for personalization. By tailoring website content to specific industries and personas, it ensures that each visitor feels like the site was made just for them. Whether it’s through social proofs or custom messaging, this tool helps Livestorm engage B2B clients on a deeper level, making every interaction count. Segment serves as the backbone of data management. It captures user data and seamlessly distributes it across various platforms, from email marketing to in-app messaging. This orchestration guarantees that every touchpoint with the customer is personalized and relevant, driving better engagement and retention. Benoit also gives a nod to Refiner, a key player in capturing user feedback. Whether it’s through NPS surveys or specific feedback on new features, Refiner ensures Livestorm stays in tune with its users. Integrated with Segment, it not only gathers data but triggers timely follow-ups, helping to refine the product based on real user input. Key takeaway: A well-integrated martech stack is essential for delivering personalized experiences and driving user retention. Tools like Amplitude, Mutiny, Customerio.io and Segment work together to create a seamless journey, while Refiner ensures user feedback directly informs product improvements.
Benoit doesn’t hesitate when asked about the centerpiece of Livestorm’s martech stack. For him, the core has always been their marketing automation tool, Customer.io. This tool has been instrumental since Livestorm's early days, especially when they were a small, self-serve business. Benoit attributes much of their growth to the strategic use of Customer.io, which not only automated specific messaging but also provided critical insights into the buyer's journey. The integration with Segment further amplified its impact, allowing Livestorm to capture and utilize data points effectively, which in turn, scaled conversions and expanded their customer base. As Livestorm grew, so did the complexity of their martech stack. Benoit mentions that as the company evolved, the data warehouse and Customer Data Platform (CDP) began playing a more significant role. Yet, despite this evolution, he remains adamant that the true orchestrator of their stack continues to be Customer.io. Its role in managing and optimizing the buyer journey is so ingrained in their operations that it remains central, even as new tools and processes are introduced. This perspective reflects a broader trend where companies initially rely heavily on marketing automation tools as their primary orchestrator. But as they scale and gather more data, the role of CDPs and data warehouses becomes increasingly important. However, for Livestorm, the foundational importance of a tool like Customer.io cannot be overstated, especially given its ability to adapt and integrate as the company’s needs grew more complex. The evolution of Livestorm’s stack from a single orchestrator to a more complex, data-driven system underscores the importance of flexibility and scalability in martech tools. While the CDP and data warehouse have become critical, the consistent thread has been Customer.io’s capacity to grow with them, demonstrating that even as the tech stack evolves, the initial building blocks remain crucial. Key takeaway: The backbone of a successful martech stack often starts with a solid marketing automation tool. As a company scales, additional tools like CDPs and data warehouses become vital, but the original orchestrator, like Customer.io in Livestorm’s case, continues to play a crucial role in managing and optimizing the customer journey.
When asked about what makes Customer.io a standout tool for Livestorm, Benoit highlighted three key features that have made it indispensable to their marketing efforts. 1 - First on the list is data integration. Benoit praises the seamless connection between Customer.io and their Customer Data Platform (CDP), Segment. This integration enables Livestorm to map user events and attributes effortlessly, which in turn allows for highly personalized messaging. By leveraging this data, the team can trigger specific campaigns at the perfect moment for each user, ensuring that every message is relevant and timely. 2 - The second feature Benoit appreciates is the user experience (UX) and user interface (UI) of the platform. Onboarding new team members has been straightforward, thanks to Customer.io’s intuitive design. The visual workflow builder simplifies the process of creating and editing campaigns and emails, making it easy for the entire team to collaborate and execute strategies without unnecessary complications. 3 - Finally, Benoit highlights the segment builder as a crucial tool in their arsenal. Managing recipient lists can be a nightmare in many platforms, but Customer.io’s approach, with tags and naming conventions, makes it much easier to organize and clean up lists. This feature not only improves efficiency but also ensures that Livestorm’s campaigns reach the right audience every time. Key takeaway: Customer.io excels in data integration, intuitive UX/UI, and efficient segment management, making it a powerful tool for personalized marketing campaigns. These features have allowed Livestorm to optimize their messaging and ensure smooth operations across their team.
Benoit shares a fascinating look at how Livestorm has leveraged Customer.io to create sophisticated workflows, particularly those focused on driving revenue. This year, the team concentrated on revenue-centric workflows, addressing challenges like incomplete subscriptions and payment issues—common hurdles in any SaaS business. One notable experiment revolved around abandoned carts. By integrating Customer.io with their data stack, they tracked users who landed on the billing page but didn’t complete their transactions. This e-commerce-in... | |||
| 07 Jun 2022 | 60: Kamil Rextin: Death to personal branding and dark social | 00:47:26 | |
Today on the show we have a veteran of the SaaS marketing industry, we’re joined by Kamil Rextin. After moving from Islamabad, he worked in Karachi for 2 years at P&G and completed an MBA at Waterloo University. He got his start wearing many different hats like Growth, Demand Gen and Ops at early/mid stage SaaS companies in Montreal and Toronto including Breather, Pressly, Uberflip and CrowdRiff. In 2018, he took the entrepreneurial plunge and went out on his own and started an agency called 42Agency. 4 years later, Kamil’s agency counts more than 5+ full time team members providing demand gen, marketing ops and ABM services. He’s worked with top brands like ProfitWell, Hubdoc, Sproutsocial, Knak and many more scaling B2B saaS companies. Kamil’s a father, a founder, a podcaster, a community moderator, the author of the 42/ newsletter, a neurodivergent advocate… but most of his time is shamelessly spent on memes and hot takes on Twitter. Kamil – we’re pumped to chat with you today, thanks for taking the time. Questions and topics Kamil, I’ve dived into your twitter feed over the past year and there’s a ton of hot takes that we can dive into that I’d love longer than 280 character take on. Recently you did an AMA on the B2B marketing community on Twitter, I pegged you with a bunch of questions and wanted to let you expand on some of those – maybe we can start there. Running an agency vs in-house For guests that have gone the in-house and agency route, I love asking the pros and cons of both of them. You’re even more fascinating because not only did you do agency… you founded an agency from scratch and have been running it for more than 4 years now. What’s the biggest upside/downside of running an agency vs being an in-house marketer? What are some of your early learnings from starting your own agency? Future-proofed marketing skills Whether they end up in-house or at an agency, if you were mentoring a fresh marketing grad, you said that you would recommend them to specialize in the technical side of marketing. Why do you think the quantitative side of marketing is where a lot of opportunity is? Technical marketing Let’s dive into that a bit more, I think people generously add technical marketing to their skillsets. What does it mean to you? Is it anything that has to do with reporting and integrations or using martech or is it more technical than that? Like how to manipulate data and build basic models or building a Data Warehouse? Analytics and Tracking in 2022 From a quantitative marketing standpoint, the tracking analytics world is weird in 2022. The industry is moving away from session based tracking and with Apple and others making a big business out of privacy and with click based tracking only getting harder with cross browser tracking, what should marketers be relying on in 2022 and beyond? Is it incremental testing? Is it statistical models or ML? Martech buyer’s guide – Wirecutter for SaaS I actually discovered you 4 years ago when I stumbled upon some of your early martech buyer’s guide work. You were building the wirecutter for SaaS, I think the first one you did was on CMS, can’t remember how favoroubly you talked about WP (lol) but what happened to this project, are you going to pick it back up one day? https://twitter.com/kamilrextin/status/1338536972608999425
Some influencers have denigrated tracking and attribution to the point where many recommend just ignoring it and trusting your gut. One of the main culprits of this is the rise of dark social. WTF is dark social, is it just a buzzword for offline referrals like in group chats or in Slack threads and forums, and do you buy into all of this hype? How much do you hate this term? SaaS companies should be a media company narrative Sticking to some of your hot twitter takes here, there’s a few more I’m excited to dive in with you. One of them is this idea that many influencers proliferate that SaaS companies should be a media company narrative. Why do you think this is bullshit? https://twitter.com/kamilrextin/status/1362544724813430786 Personal brands Another of my favorite twitter takes is your disdain for personal branding. A quick look at LinkedIn and Twitter reveals that building a personal brand has been dry humped to death. Every influencer is only an expert at self promotion. There’s a total lack of receipts and actual experience. It’s all about 24/7 self aggrandizement. Twitter screenshots on LinkedIn and nothing but dolphin claps and clicks. How do you really feel about building a personal brand?
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| 03 Feb 2023 | 65: It takes a village to build a dashboard | 00:27:38 | |
What’s up everyone, today we’re taking a dive into the world of dashboard building. Startups may not always have the luxury of having a dedicated data analyst on staff, which means marketers may need to get more hands-on with data. Yeah I haven’t had the data analyst luxury in my career very often! In episode 38, we discussed marketing reporting and how you can use key reports to help highlight impact and find new opportunities. But we’re not talking about reports here right? That’s right, dashboards aren’t reports. They are living breathing snapshots of key areas you want to keep an eye on in your business. Yeah I think a lot of people don’t make that distinction and just assume reports = dashboards = chart. Where should marketers be starting? With charts? Scatter plots, bar charts, pie charts, maps, funnels, box plots… There’s a bunch of different chart types and visualizations at your disposal when you're designing your dashboard, but this isn’t where you should start. Here’s today’s main takeaway: When designing a dashboard, it's important to focus on the decisions you want to make, rather than just the metrics you want to track. Before building your dashboard, consider your audience and bring together the right people to answer key questions. This will help you create a prototype of your first version. Dashboard projects are close to both of our hearts. Both having worked for Klipfolio (a dashboard SaaS for startups and SMBs), we’ve spent a fair amount of time researching and writing about the internal dashboard building process. There’s obviously a critical collaboration piece to this that would be an initial starting point for anyone taking on a dashboard project. Yeah one thing we always said about building good dashboards is that it takes a village. So Phil, you’ve actually led the charge in this area at a few startups. What are some of the questions you should be asking as a marketer to get started? Questions before building The first questions to tackle as a team are: What metrics would you look at on a regular basis to measure performance and determine areas for growth? What metrics do you care about the most? So ultimately, this depends entirely on your team goals and the top priority metrics we’ve selected as a group. These goals further inform how to prioritize views and metrics in our dashboard. What does this group of stakeholders look like when you’re starting to build things? Stakeholder groups:
Yeah I’ve gotten a taste of both of these. Small teams and bigger teams. There’s advantages to both. But I think regardless, it’s important to get a lay of the land first. Yeah it might be helpful to walk through an example. You’ve been pretty deep in lifecycle marketing in your career. Maybe give us a real life example wearing a lifecycle hat. So Phil, you’re Director of lifecycle and you’re tasked with building out a lifecycle dashboard. Here’s a list of example questions to ask yourself and stakeholders Yeah I like the lifecycle example actually. It’s broad enough to touch most parts of marketing so I can use it as goal posts as we unpack some of this stuff. Your goal with these questions is to figure out what metrics we care about the most, getting a benchmark and establishing a goal for each of these metrics and how they have been trending over time.
Exactly. Next we can talk about metrics that flow in from those questions. What metrics you should consider for the first prototype The critical piece of this phase is to spend time understanding the most important things to monitor and give ourselves time to explore different ideas before rolling out a finished dashboard. Here are the core areas of a lifecycle dashboard, with a focus on conversion rates, starting at signups (explicitly did not scope content lead > signup):
The main takeaway of this episode though as we said is that When designing a dashboard, it's important to focus on the decisions you want to make, rather than just the metrics you want to track. So how do we do that? Focus on the decisions you want to make Something we want to keep in mind as we narrow the list of important metrics are the decisions we want to be able to make. The goal of our example dashboard is to monitor the lifecycle marketing performance and identify growth opportunities. That means answering questions like:
So now that you have a better idea of all the metrics you want to start with, one of the next steps you can start thinking about is chart types, how you’d like to ideally display your data. Choosing chart types Scatter plots, bar charts, pie charts, maps, funnels, box plots… There’s a bunch of different chart types and visualization... | |||
| 02 Apr 2024 | 113: Abby Gailey: Automating direct mail with webhooks, navigating B2B2C and leveraging Slack communities | 00:52:23 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Abby Gailey, Director of Marketing Operations at Vibrent Health. Summary: Abby walks us through the complicated marketing ops world of B2B2C healthcare SaaS, emphasizing a move from sales-centric to engagement-focused martech. We dive into curiosity and continuous learning, using tools like webhooks to blend digital and physical marketing effectively. Quality assurance through negative checklists and professional growth through mentorship and communities are key themes for future proofing your martech career. Abby simplifies success in martech: blend innovation with teamwork, and balance your professional and personal life. About Abby
Abby sheds light on the unique challenges and opportunities of managing martech operations within a B2B2C business model, particularly in a sector as sensitive and regulated as healthcare research. At Vibrant Health, Abby's role straddles the line between serving business clients and engaging end users in medical studies. Her experience is notably distinct from the traditional B2B or B2C marketing roles, often dominated by discussions around lead generation, MQLs, and SQLs. Abby’s work involves partnering with prestigious institutions like the Dana Farber Cancer Institute and the National Institutes of Health, utilizing their platform to facilitate crucial medical research. The essence of her work emphasizes engagement and enablement over direct revenue generation, a departure from the revenue-centric focus seen in many marketing operations roles. This divergence stems from the regulatory landscape of healthcare, demanding precision and adherence to stringent guidelines in communications. Abby's toolkit is unique, relying less on mainstream martech solutions like Marketo or Salesforce, and more on specialized tools that cater to direct engagement through emails, SMS, and direct mail. Abby's perspective underscores a broader theme in martech: the necessity of tailoring marketing operations to the specific needs and regulations of the industry and business model. While mainstream conversations in martech often gravitate towards lead generation and sales enablement, Abby's experience highlights the importance of engagement and enablement in scenarios where direct revenue generation is not the primary focus. Key Takeaway: Abby's experience at Vibrant Health highlights the significance of customizing martech strategies to fit the unique requirements of a B2B2C business model in a regulated industry. The focus shifts from revenue generation to precise engagement and adherence to regulations, underscoring the need for specialized tools and approaches beyond the conventional sales-centric martech solutions.
Unlike many marketers whose performance metrics revolve around revenue generation, Abby's focus is on engagement — a critical component in the context of medical research. This pivot away from revenue-centric metrics allows her team to concentrate on the effectiveness of communication strategies that encourage participation in health studies, which is paramount for the success of their projects. Her work involves navigating a complex landscape of HIPAA and governmental regulations, making her tasks not just about engagement, but also about compliance. Abby points out the similarities between challenges faced in healthcare marketing and those in other tightly regulated sectors like FinTech, highlighting the creative and nuanced approaches required to provide value within these constraints. Despite these challenges, Abby sees significant opportunities to impact user engagement and support the overarching goals of research and funding. Abby’s work underscores the importance of engagement in the success of healthcare research, where the actions of participants directly contribute to the progress and outcomes of studies. Her approach offers insights into the broader potential for marketing operations to support and enable core business functions beyond direct revenue generation, especially in sectors where regulatory compliance plays a significant role. Key takeaway: Marketers in regulated industries can leverage creative engagement strategies to drive participation and compliance, highlighting the value of focusing on outcomes beyond direct revenue. Abby's approach underscores the importance of tailoring marketing efforts to meet the unique challenges and opportunities of highly regulated fields.
Curiosity isn't just a trait; it's a fundamental skill for anyone navigating martech. Abby champions the idea of curiosity as the driving force behind learning and innovation in martech. She equates curiosity to the eagerness to press a button just to see what happens, a simple yet profound analogy for the exploratory mindset required in this field. This approach to technology and problem-solving isn't about reckless experimentation but embodies a deeper, more meaningful engagement with the tools and strategies at one’s disposal. Abby highlights the importance of continuous learning, whether through webinars about new features or strategies to enhance user engagement. The martech landscape is perpetually evolving, with an endless array of tools emerging. Staying ahead, or at least keeping pace, demands a proactive attitude toward learning and experimentation. Abby's method underscores an essential truth about martech: its dynamism is not a challenge but an opportunity for those willing to explore and learn. This mindset transforms potential obstacles into puzzles to be solved, making the work engaging and rewarding. Her favorite activities for skill acquisition—such as attending webinars and exploring new features—illustrate practical ways professionals can cultivate their curiosity. Key takeaway: Regularly engage with webinars and hands-on experimentation with new martech tools to sharpen your problem-solving skills and keep pace with industry innovations.
There's a unique value placed on hands-on, experiential learning in MOPs. Abby emphasizes how on-the-job training surpasses traditional education for practical skill acquisition in the martech field. Abby’s journey, like many in our field, showcases the immense benefits of diving directly into the tools and systems that define the industry and learning through direct interaction and problem-solving. This method of learning isn't just about understanding how a particular platform operates; it extends to grasping the soup of data flows, system integrations, and the art of engaging end-users in meaningful ways. Abby highlights the importance of facing real-world challenges—those specific to a company’s vertical and the common hurdles encountered with tech systems. This hands-on approach cultivates a problem-solving mindset, essenti... | |||
| 08 Dec 2020 | 11: Jonathan Simon: Do you still need a degree to have success in marketing? | 00:39:33 | |
Our guest today is Jonathan Simon. Jonathan is Director of Marketing and Professor of Digital Marketing at Telfer School of Management - University of Ottawa. He teaches an undergrad and a master’s level course. Before that, he also taught at Algonquin college for almost 4 years.
He’s an extremely well networked marketer, he’s found more jobs for marketing students in Canada than any other prof in history, ever.
Some of the topics we cover in the episode: How do you teach while also being a Director of marketing? Do you still need to do a degree out of highschool to have a successful and happy career in marketing? What are some of the best side projects students can take on to help get them jobs early on? How do you manage interns and fresh marketers? How do you stay happy in your career while managing multiple hobbies and being a father? | |||
| 14 Jun 2022 | 61: Nick deWilde: How marketers can get started in web3 | 00:50:57 | |
What’s up everyone, today we’re diving into a fascinating conversation with Nick deWilde who’s leading an exciting web3 project.
Questions and topics There’s so many things I’d love to unpack today. I've become a huge fan of your newsletter and your work around career strategies, but I had to prioritize some of the topics today given the time we have together. I want to get into some web3 stuff as well but maybe we can start off by taking us back to 2021 when you were on paternity leave.
Nick you wrote about stepping off a rocketship and strapping on a jetpack into web3. You did this 3 months after having a baby. Talk to us about this decision and what impact having your first child had on making a big career change. Nick’s Notes:
Zone of genius One of your guiding principles when you took the leap and went independent was to work in your zone of genius. For you that meant, creative ideation, crafting + executing a strategy and collaborating with people you admire. Walk us through this concept and how others might determine what their zone of genius might be? Nick’s Notes:
When it’s time to leave your job In episode 48 last season we talked about when to quit your job. Being successful and happy in martech requires having a true north for your career. Sometimes, that means recognizing that your current workplace isn’t helping you advance your career. You built a chart that can tell someone when it’s time to leave their job. I’d love it if you could break that down for our listeners. Nick’s Notes:
The Great Online Game “We now live in a world in which, by typing things on your keyboard, or saying things into a microphone, you can marshall resources, support, and opportunities.” You reference this article written by Packy McCormick (the author of Not boring newsletter) many times in your work. Many of the folks I follow in web3 reference it as well. Talk to us about how this article lit a fire in you. Nick’s Notes:
Every marketer should get the opp to launch a web3 project Last year you tweeted that your hope was for every web2 marketer to get the opportunity to launch a web3 project. Talk a bit more about that, why is launching a web3 project vs web2 such a rush? https://twitter.com/nick_dewilde/status/1473064169557553152?s=20 For marketers who might not have the current bandwidth to launch something of their own right now, what’s a smaller commitment – first step that they could take? | |||
| 11 Feb 2025 | 156: Chris Golec: The Godfather of ABM is on his 3rd company and he’s solving attribution for B2B marketers with AI | 00:58:59 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Chris Golec, Founder & CEO at Channel99. Summary: The Godfather of ABM takes us through his humble beginnings in Detroit's industrial trenches to category creation and entrepreneurial expeditions. His journey spans building magnetic company cultures, cracking the code on remote work, sharing candid hiring wisdom, and transforming marketing failures into fuel for growth. Now building Channel99, he's rewriting attribution with a touch of AI engineering, predicting marketing ROI, using a white box approach. About Chris
Chemical engineering graduates in Detroit followed a well-worn path: automotive paint lines, waste treatment facilities, and methodical career progression through established industry giants. The conventional trajectory promised stability but offered minimal room for pioneering new ground. This reality sparked Chris's pivotal decision to pursue innovation beyond Motor City's industrial confines. DuPont's Delaware operations presented an intriguing opportunity to spearhead European manufacturing technology adoption in the US market. The role demanded technical expertise while cultivating strategic thinking, setting the stage for an unorthodox career evolution. Engineering polymer sales, though seemingly mundane, opened doors to Boston's dynamic business landscape, where GE recognized potential in this chemical engineer turned sales strategist. The 1990s tech boom transformed the West Coast into a crucible of innovation. As GE's industry marketing lead for high-tech materials, Chris orchestrated global deals with Apple and HP, bridging the gap between traditional manufacturing and Silicon Valley's emerging titans. The experience revealed a stark reality: technical expertise alone created opportunities, but market understanding determined success. In 1995, this insight drove Chris and fellow GE engineers to launch Supply Base, despite their complete unfamiliarity with software development. Supply Base embodied Silicon Valley's audacious spirit. A team of engineers, armed with industrial experience but zero software knowledge, secured funding through sheer determination. The venture grew into a profitable enterprise, culminating in an exit that coincided precisely with the market peak on March 13, 2000. Yet amid this success, frustration brewed. B2B marketing remained technologically underserved, a gap that became increasingly apparent as Supply Base scaled. This observation planted seeds for future innovations in marketing technology, proving that sometimes the most valuable insights emerge from professional pain points. Key takeaway: Career evolution thrives on identifying market gaps and embracing unconventional paths. Chris's journey demonstrates how technical expertise combined with market understanding creates opportunities for innovation, especially when traditional industry boundaries blur in the face of technological advancement.
Creating genuine company culture runs deeper than the usual corporate playbook suggests. Demandbase's remarkable journey illuminates how sustained, intentional investment in organizational DNA attracts and retains exceptional talent. Chris discovered through years of leadership that authenticity, transparency, and meaningful impact serve as the bedrock of thriving workplace environments, transcending typical office perks or superficial initiatives. Demandbase's cultural investment materialized into tangible recognition, propelling them to the tenth spot among 500,000 companies on Glassdoor by 2016. The achievement reflected genuine employee satisfaction measured through independent surveys rather than manufactured accolades. This momentum persisted as the company consistently earned "Best Places to Work" distinctions throughout the Bay Area, validating their approach to fostering genuine workplace connections. The company's distinctive approach integrated philanthropy seamlessly into their organizational fabric. A partnership with Stop Hunger Now transformed from an office-wide meal-packaging initiative into a stadium-scale operation at their annual customer conference. This resonated profoundly with their marketing-focused clientele, spawning similar programs across multiple organizations. Additional initiatives supporting women's education and the Challenge Athlete Foundation enabled employees to contribute meaningfully beyond their B2B software focus, creating ripple effects throughout the industry. Cultural development demands attention from inception, though its manifestation evolves with company growth. While Series A funding often marks the formal introduction of HR functions and recruitment strategies, companies under 20 employees thrive when leadership directly shapes and nurtures cultural foundations. The rise of remote work introduces new challenges, requiring deliberate effort to maintain community through strategic in-person gatherings and shared experiences that transcend virtual boundaries. Key takeaway: Purpose-driven culture requires deliberate cultivation from day one. Organizations that prioritize authentic connections, maintain radical transparency, and create opportunities for meaningful impact naturally attract and retain exceptional talent. This foundation enables sustainable growth while fostering genuine employee satisfaction and engagement.
Remote work demands a brutally honest examination beyond the standard flexibility narrative. The stark reality reveals a complex equation where career stage, personality type, and organizational DNA collide to determine distributed success. During a pre-pandemic executive assessment at Demandbase, the remote work preference split tracked perfectly along introvert-extrovert lines, foreshadowing the fundamental role of personality in distributed work effectiveness. Career stage emerges as the make-or-break factor in remote work dynamics. Fresh graduates and early-career professionals require an apprenticeship period that Zoom simply cannot replicate. The professional polish developed through observing seasoned colleagues handle meetings, presentations, and workplace politics creates an invisible foundation for later career success. Close CRM's remote-first model crystallizes this reality; they exclusively hire veteran professionals with 10+ years of experience, acknowledging that virtual environments demand battle-tested practitioners who learned their craft in the trenches of traditional offices. The SDR experience at Demandbase's New York office illustrates this principle in vivid detail. Post-pandemic, a group of SDRs met face-to-face for the first time, creating an impromptu laboratory for examining remote work's limitations. Physical proximity unlocked a treasure trove of professional development opportuniti... | |||
| 13 Feb 2024 | 106: Crissy Saunders: Funnel reporting, composable automation and the future of outbound | 00:56:24 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Crissy Saunders, CEO and Co-Founder at CS2. Summary: Crissy takes us through the evolution from tactical management to strategic leadership, and the adaptation to changing marketing strategies. We discuss the significance of specialized platforms in marketing automation, the critical role of the sales funnel in revenue growth, the shift in email marketing towards 'inbox influence', and revitalizing outbound marketing strategies. This episode is a concise yet profound guide, offering actionable insights for martech professionals to navigate their careers and strategies effectively. About Crissy
Crissy's journey with her husband Charlie in the realm of marketing operations (martech ops) is a testament to how personal and professional relationships can synergize effectively. Their story began in a work environment, where they were assigned to different global roles. Crissy, based in Palo Alto, and Charlie, working from the EMEA office, quickly realized the need for a counterpart due to the time difference. This necessity sparked their collaboration. Their work dynamic evolved as they discovered not only their professional compatibility but also a personal connection. This dual relationship blossomed into marriage, and after a year of living apart, they decided to venture into consulting. The transition from employees to business owners was facilitated by their solid professional background and the initial success in acquiring clients. This success was a result of their extensive network and the burgeoning field of marketing and sales operations, which at the time, was not as recognized as it is today. Their business, initially named CSU Marketing, evolved to focus on revenue operations, reflecting their diverse expertise beyond just marketing ops. They attribute their successful business partnership to aligning on business goals, leveraging each other's strengths, and maintaining constant communication. Daily meetings help them stay connected and address priorities, a luxury not all business leaders share. However, blending personal and professional life has its challenges. Discussions about the business often spill into their personal time, but they view this as a constructive process. Differences in opinion are not seen as conflicts but as opportunities for 'storming' – a phase in the McKinsey framework – leading to innovative solutions. This approach underscores their ability to balance their roles as business partners and life partners. Key takeaway: Crissy and Charlie's experience highlights the importance of communication, alignment of goals, and leveraging individual strengths in a business partnership. Their journey from colleagues to spouses and business partners demonstrates that professional and personal relationships can coexist and thrive, provided there's a clear understanding of roles, constant communication, and a positive approach to resolving differences.
Crissy sheds light on a crucial challenge in the martech sector: the transition from a tactical, technology-focused manager to a strategic, business-minded director. In her view, the key to success in operations roles lies in balancing tactical knowledge with evolving strategic approaches. Understanding the operational landscape and keeping abreast of technological possibilities are vital for leaders in this field. She emphasizes the importance of building a solid operational foundation rather than being mired in constant 'firefighting' mode. This foundation is crucial for moving beyond immediate tactical challenges and focusing on long-term strategic goals. Crissy advises against solely aiming for a position where one only manages people and devises strategies. A true leader in martech needs to grasp the practical aspects of the technology they oversee, even if not involved in the hands-on work. Her tips for professionals aspiring to advance include aligning with business goals and key metrics, particularly those of the revenue team. She advises creating a flexible roadmap that accommodates unforeseen challenges while ensuring that the team remains focused on impactful, long-term projects. Moreover, she underscores the importance of data analysis and insights in driving operational efficiency and informing higher-level decisions. Key takeaway: To progress from a tactical role to a strategic leadership position in martech, professionals need to balance their technical knowledge with an understanding of evolving business strategies. Building a solid operational foundation, aligning with key business goals, and emphasizing data analysis are essential steps. Success in this transition requires not just managing teams but also possessing a deep understanding of the technology and strategies that drive the business forward.
Crissy delves into the complexities of unbundling marketing automation platforms in the current martech environment. She identifies several issues that make this process challenging, particularly for established operations. The primary concerns include understaffing, high turnover, and the necessity for comprehensive training on these tools. Marketing automation platforms offer a wide range of functionalities, which can be both a blessing and a curse. While they provide a one-stop solution for various needs, Crissy points out that many features often go unused, leading to questions about cost-effectiveness. However, the real worry lies in the management and upkeep of these systems. The existing tech debt in marketing automation and CRM platforms complicates the situation further. Crissy suggests that while the idea of a more flexible, composable solution is appealing, especially for small and medium businesses (SMBs) focusing on profitability and investment appeal, the historical and operational challenges in B2B settings make it a difficult transition. She also highlights the potential benefits of having a single tool to master, simplifying contract management and expertise development within teams. The future of marketing automation, according to Crissy, lies not in the immediate unbundling of these platforms but in the advancements and specialization of these tools. She emphasizes the need for marketing ops professionals to choose platforms based on their specific use case... | |||
| 09 May 2023 | 71: Find the top AI marketing tools and filter out the noise | 01:14:27 | |
What’s up everyone, If you haven’t checked out our previous 3 episodes in our AI series you might want to before this episode, we give you a lot of context around some of the events that have happened and will shape the conversation today. So basically
Today we’re diving into specific tools… there’s a lot of noise out there right now.
In TMW #107 | ChatGPT and the artificial marketer, Juan Mendoza explains that “...generative AI tools are already everywhere. From text generation to video and audio production, to image creation, there’s a thriving industry of technologies taking small slices out of our creative talents, packaging them up, and selling them as a SaaS product on a recurring revenue model. If you’re wanting to stay relevant five years from now in the marketing technology industry, you’re probably going to have to learn some of these platforms. In 2010 we used to say: “there’s an app for that”. In 2023, we will be saying: “there’s an AI for that.”” Outline Here are some of the topics for this third AI episode:
Here’s today’s main takeaway: The key to future proofing your marketing career with the ever changing AI landscape is to stay curious, get your hands dirty and experiment fearlessly: Fill out some forms, spin up free trials, get on wait lists, and give new AI tools a chance. It's only by actually getting your hands dirty that you'll discover which tools truly work for you and which are just part of the ever growing sea of gimmicky AI tools.
I’ll be using some of these terms throughout my analysis of some of these tools so here’s a primer explaining the three most common AI technologies used for marketing applications:
Machine Learning): ML is a way to teach computers to learn by themselves, without having to be programmed for every task. They learn from examples and data patterns to make predictions or decisions. Applications include segmentation, predictive analytics and propensity models.
Natural Language Processing: NLP is a subset of ML and focuses on enabling computers to understand, interpret, and generate human language. Includes sentiment analysis, machine translation, named entity recognition, text summarization, and more. NLP techniques usually helps computers understand and communicate with humans using everyday language.
Graph Neural Network: GNN also a subset of ML is a type of neural network that aims to handle graph-structured data, data organized like a network or web of connected points. Applications include analyzing relationships between different things like users in a social network or users in your database or recommending additional products based on past purchase history.
Part of the reason AI gets a really bad rep, especially in martech, is that anything that’s built on if statements or simple Javascript logic gets called AI. There’s still plenty of AI startups that shout about their proprietary AI when it’s probably just a few decision trees and a few interns running spreadsheets. Now though, you have an even bigger bucket of noise that’s essentially “slight tweak on Chat-GPT”. Developing AI that was comparable to human performance was a challenging feat prior to GPT's arrival. To achieve this level of sophistication, a company would have had to:
But it’s so easy now because GPT is so good out of the box. Allen Cheng puts it simply. Starting a new AI venture can be achieved by simply assembling a few elements:
This is why we’re seeing hundreds of AI tolls pop up every week. A lot of these GPT-based products are pretty much indistinguishable from one another. Maybe a handful have a significant advantage over others but most are gimmicky. And over the next few months, every tool is going to be integrating ChatGPT features inside their products in the hopes of making it stickier. The threat of GPT-n The part that I find trickiest and the most discouraging about building anything on top of GPT is that any progress you make on fine tuning GPT-4 will totally be wiped out by GPT-5 or GPT-n… Kind of like we talked about in a previous episode with all the tools GPT’s plugins killed. So let’s cut through the noise and dive into legit AI tools, the ones you should be playing with and experimenting.
AI text generators are very common these days, the two most popular tools, especially for marketers are Copy.ai and Jasper. Both allow you to bypass the initial stage of writing where you face a blank page. The promise of these tools is that they help you in generating ideas, saving time on brainstorming and drafting, and ensuring a consistent production flow, freeing you to focus on higher-level strategic tasks, original research, and connecting with your audience. I’ve played around with both Jasper and Copy.ai before ChatGPT came out… and they were super unique. But both Copy.ai and Jasper are built on top of GPT, they essentially rent usage of the platform. So they built a pretty nice UI on top of GPT… but now that ChatGPT came out, I’m sure they’ve seen a drop in usage. Plus GPT-4 is 3 times more expensive. They still offer marketing specific value though and can get you up to speed faster than using CGPT in the form of templates, prompts and workflows. Both are super powerful, you could make a case that Jasper outshin... | |||
| 06 Apr 2021 | 28: Beware false marketing idols | 00:27:37 | |
In this episode, we’re going to talk about the best ways to integrate influencers into your marketing education.
But what about networking? YES! Great way to build your brand :) How have you used influencers in your growth as a marketer? I’ve followed quite a few, but mostly it’s been through reading articles and doing research. Read a book! They need to be peer reviewed. I follow influencers for their smart content. I know you talk about graduating influencers -- what do you mean by that? I want to be super clear: I have nothing against any influencer. They’re brave enough and bold enough to put themselves in the public, and share their wisdom. I truly respect everyone and their talents. If it sounds like I’m throwing shade, then please know I’m being genuine! Take Neal Patel - Digital marketer, SEO - He’s done a ton of work for the community, and is particularly valuable for folks at the start of their career. As an SEO, 12 years ago I started reading some of his blogs, and ended up, moving over to the Moz blog where I started to learn more from a class of advanced SEOs like Rand Fishkin, Cyrus Shepherd, Dr. Pete, etc. I don’t read about writing good SEO content anymore — I read things like The Definitive Guide to JavaScript SEO (2021 Edition). Obviously a massive Rand fan. I still remember reading his letter. It’s one of those saas marketing moments right? Where were you when you found out Rand was leaving Moz? I feel like the guy embodies integrity and morality in marketing. In the early days of Klipfolio, you guys built out dashboard templates and you had one with Rand. How was that? At Klipfolio we worked on an SEO dashboard Rand Fishkin described in one of his whiteboard videos. I’m a huge Rand Fishkin fan -- he’s a genuine, smart dude, and watching & reading his content makes me happy. Anyway, we built this dashboard for him, and then reached out. He was still CEO of Mox at the time, so he was super, super busy. We ended getting him to review the dashboard and promoting it out on social. Why should you follow influencers? I’d say to round out your perspective and education. Don’t just blindly follow anyone and expect results. If you find someone entertaining or witty or whatever, follow them. I’m not your mom! It’s funny, I don’t actually see myself following influencers so much as just following smart people. I also really check whether the people I follow already confirm existing biases - it’s super helpful to find people who have different opinions or perspectives. It’s really easy to swim the same direction as everyone else -- look to people who do the opposite and then follow them. I like what you said there “smart people” not influencers. What’s the difference between a fluffy influencer and a legit smart influencer? The difference lies in the content. Dig deep. The fluffy influencer is just repeating the same things that are already shared at nauseum, that’s if they’re not talking about themselves. Real experts focus on their field, not themselves. They are opinionated, they drive real discussion, they share valuable practical things. They back up what they say, they work in the craft, they are super deep. They aren’t afraid of saying I don’t know. But it’s tricky. It’s super easy for someone to have a legit social presence and appearance, but once you hire them or work with them you quickly uncover whether they can back up all those tweets. How do you spot a smart influencer vs a false idol? Instead of saying, wow, Rand is so cool, I want to be like Rand and do what he does. You should be saying, wow what Rand said is fascinating, he's really made me rethink my take on mobile vs desktop, mobile didn’t kill desktop, it just took up all our free time. There’s something super fascinating about a lot of influencer relationships. I know you’re trying to be nice and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. We just saw a prominent influencer/podcaster get called out for some pretty shady practices. Yes, and you see this all the time. Pay me a bit of money and I’ll give you 15 minutes of advice or whatever. It could totally be worth it. I question the value. I think that you’re better off forming your own opinion and working through challenges with information available. I see this a lot on platforms like Product Hunt, where getting an influencer to hunt your product is like the number one factor in being successful. I disagree - I think having a great product customers love is more important. But it doesn’t change the transactional nature of influencer life. We have a podcast. Are we influencers? How do you sleep at night JT? Yes, the irony is not lost on me! I think that we have to recognize that we do influence folks -- we put content on the internet, and with it our opinions. I will say this: my goal is to provide the kind of advice I wish I got when I was starting out. Or, if you’re more senior, to provide a unique perspective... I have young kids at home -- I sleep like shit :) Alright, let’s drop a list of some of the legit people you’re following and learning from right now: Marketing celebreties https://twitter.com/andrewchen https://twitter.com/jackbutcher Badass marketers https://twitter.com/crestodina https://twitter.com/davegerhardt https://twitter.com/guillaumecabane https://twitter.com/KyleTibbitts https://twitter.com/JoelKlettke https://twitter.com/ClaireSuellen https://twitter.com/JHTScherck | |||
| 15 Aug 2023 | 84: Tejas Manohar: The past, present, and future of Composable CDPs | 01:00:24 | |
Summary: The future of CDPs, as envisioned by Tejas, is a more flexible, adaptable data architecture that Hightouch is actively shaping. Hightouch, even without the data collection component, is recognized by some of the largest companies in the world as their go-to CDP. Tejas stresses that the reconciliation of 'truth' in data between marketing and data teams isn't solely a tech or architecture problem; it requires an operational shift and closer collaboration between teams. The conversation serves as an essential guide for businesses seeking to optimize their data use and enhance customer experiences. The Software solutions like Hightouch provide a solid framework to tackle this, but the human element—teamwork, alignment, and communication—remains a key determinant in solving these challenges. From Corporate Travel to Reverse ETL: Teja's Journey Back to Data However, Teja's departure from Segment wasn't just fueled by an entrepreneurial itch. He had reservations about the future trajectory of Customer Data Platforms (CDP). He didn't fully believe CDPs were set to become the standard for managing customer data across industries. With inklings of impending acquisitions and significant changes in the data industry, he left Segment. Teja then spent about eight to nine months with Carry until the onset of COVID-19. Despite the inherent challenges of the travel industry—low margins, high human operation requirements, price-sensitive customers—Carry was growing. Yet, COVID-19 brought it to a grinding halt. With business metrics falling to zero almost overnight, Teja and his co-founders, Auren and Josh, found an unexpected opportunity. They decided to pivot back to their roots in the data industry, tapping into their old ideas and experience from their Segment days. The pandemic, in all its harshness, became a catalyst for their return to the customer data space. Teja's story is far from a linear narrative. The travel venture, the COVID-19 pivot, and the return to the data industry all added unique layers to his entrepreneurial journey. Looking back, Teja feels gratitude for these unexpected turns of events, which led him back to the dynamic world of data and customer platforms. Takeaway: An entrepreneur's journey isn't always a straight path. Teja's experiences, from his departure from Segment to his foray into the travel industry and eventual return to data, highlight the unforeseen opportunities that can surface in the face of challenging times. His story underscores the importance of adaptability and leveraging past experiences to seize new opportunities in the ever-changing business landscape. Composable CDP - The Birth and Journey of a New Paradigm Tejas recalled collaborating with one of their esteemed partners to develop a novel way of approaching Customer Data Platforms (CDPs), distinct from the traditional models. Their goal was to define an architectural blueprint that would resonate with a marketing audience while providing a fresh solution to existing CDP challenges. The result was the "composable CDP." Despite its somewhat confusing nature, this term became a touchstone for their market positioning. But Tejas admitted, many terms in the martech world like "marketing cloud" or "engagement hub" often induce more head scratching than clarity. Their aim, however, was not merely to coin a catchy phrase but to address a pervasive dissatisfaction within the industry. At the time, many large enterprises and mid-market companies were investing heavily in CDPs, hoping to enable marketers to freely explore customer data, create audiences, and tailor customer journeys across all channels. Yet, despite the widespread adoption, most were finding little value in these investments. This stark discrepancy between aspiration and reality was the driving force behind Hightouch. The aim was not just to sell another CDP, but to propose an innovative approach that would enable marketers to leverage data more effectively across the organization. This approach advocated the utilization of the rich data sources already present in company warehouses, and activating it across various customer journey touchpoints. Tejas highlighted that the core value of a solution should not be whether it's bundled or unbundled, but rather, the tangible business outcomes it can drive. As companies invest in housing their data using various BI tools, from Microsoft Power BI to newer players like Looker, the potential to empower marketing teams with this wealth of data is tremendous. Solutions like Hightouch or a robust CDP should offer infinite flexibility, not limiting themselves to specific data collected for a CDP. The term "composable" was chosen to reflect this mindset - working with existing resources, scaling with future technologies, and avoiding the rigid, off-the-shelf solutions. While the term may elicit confusion, the purpose behind it - empowering businesses to effectively use their data - remains clear. Key Takeaway: The term "composable CDP" emerged from the need for a novel approach to CDPs that focused on empowering marketers to use data more effectively. It's about leveraging existing data, offering infinite flexibility, and scaling with future technologies, rather than sticking to rigid, traditional solutions. Breaking Down the Power of Composable CDP vs Packaged Solutions He started by emphasizing the fundamental flaw in traditional customer data platforms (CDPs) - their reliance on a pre-defined data architecture. Brands using conventional CDPs like Segment, Oracle, or Salesforce CDP are forced to adapt their data into a format acceptable to the platform, and this restriction severely limits the platform's capability. In Tejas' words, "they can only operate on data that they understand and that was built for them." This myopic vision becomes problematic in the complex, diverse landscape of large enterprises where every business is unique and possesses an array of distinct data. Tejas vividly illustrated this point by citing the case of a Fortune 500 company that wanted to leverage its pet loyalty program data - a dataset unique to their business - to drive personalization and engagement. Traditional CDPs failed to handle this unique set of data due to their rigid architecture, but Hightouch's flexible and inclusive approach brought the data to life. The ability of Hightouch to tap into an organization's existing data, whether it's stored in Snowflake, Databricks, or any other system, and utilize it to deliver highly personalized experiences is at the heart of its value proposition. By contrast, the challenges of molding data to fit into a traditional CDP's format have led to a high failure rate, Tejas pointed out, making the novel architecture of Hightouch all the more appealing. Takeaway: The real power of a composable approach like Hightouch's lies in its flexibility and inclusivity. It's not restricted to pre-defined data architectures and can handle unique... | |||
| 07 May 2024 | 118: Mandy Thompson: Intent data pitfalls, diagram-first automation, and agency-style team management | 01:01:50 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Mandy Thompson, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Reach. Summary: Mandy shares powerful mindsets and practical frameworks for marketers aiming to future-proof their careers in the complex galaxy of martech mixed up with AI, data privacy, and genuine customer engagement. We cover the art of documentation to avoid feeling like you’re in an Indiana Jones adventure sifting through digital cobwebs from ghosts of marketers past when you dive into a company’s martech setup. We also examined the use of intent data, urging a balanced approach that respects privacy. She highlighted her practical use of virtual whiteboarding to pre-plan automations and using ChatGPT for marketing automation use cases. Most importantly, Mandy shared how blending personal authenticity with professional savvy creates genuine connections, far more valuable than superficial likes on social media. About Mandy
Mandy shares a piece of her life with us, a story that's as much about the tattoos on her skin as it is about the unseen marks her experiences have left. It's a peek into the life of someone who's part of the LGBTQIA+ community, a proud woman in a world that still wrestles with equality, and a professional who's dared to blur the lines between her personal and professional selves. Her story isn't just hers alone; it echoes the journeys of many who feel like they're juggling multiple identities, trying to find a spot where they fit in without having to compromise on who they truly are. She talks about starting with what's comfortable and pushing the boundaries from there. It's like dipping your toes into the ocean to gauge the temperature before plunging in. Mandy found that the more she shared, the more she discovered people who were like her or, at the very least, people who were open to embracing her totality without judgment. Her tale is a reminder that often, our fears of rejection are far greater than the reality of it. The pandemic, for all its chaos, played a surprising role in Mandy's life. It pushed the professional world into a more authentic space, where business suits met bedroom backgrounds in Zoom calls. For Mandy, it was a time when the digital nomad lifestyle she had always embraced suddenly became the norm. The shift wasn't just about work cultures becoming more accepting of remote work; it was about the world getting a glimpse into the personal lives of its workforce, making everyone a bit more human. Mandy's discussion about the intersecting circles of our personal and professional lives—how we must find that sweet spot where we can be true to ourselves while still rocking our roles at work—is insightful. She doesn't shy away from dressing up for an important client meeting, not as a betrayal to her identity, but as a nod to the professional context. It's about knowing when and how to showcase different facets of ourselves, a dance between being authentically us and professionally adaptable. Key takeaway: Embracing your full self at work is less about a grand revelation and more about small, confident steps towards being true to who you are. For marketers, this means understanding that your personal story and how you choose to share it can become your strength, allowing you to connect on a more genuine level with your audience, colleagues, and industry at large. It's about finding your voice in a way that resonates with both who you are and who you aspire to be professionally.
Mandy's got a point that'll make you rethink your whole LinkedIn strategy. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking you need to blend in to get ahead. You know the feeling, scrolling through your feed and it's like everyone's marching to the beat of the same drum. But Mandy's here to tell us that's not where it's at. The real magic happens when you break from the pack and share what makes you, well, you. It's not about racking up likes or followers. It's about striking a chord with the people who get you. She's pretty clear on one thing: chasing popularity isn't the goal. Imagine reaching your career milestones, not because you played it safe, but because you were real with your network. Think about it. Do you really need thousands of likes to say you've made it? Nah. If your post lights up the day for just a handful of people, those are your people. They're the ones who dig what you're saying and that's worth its weight in gold. Let's be real, though. It can sting a bit when you see others with their crazy-high follower counts and endless stream of comments. Mandy feels that too. Putting yourself out there and then hearing crickets? Tough. But she's adamant that finding your voice and your tribe beats playing it safe any day. It's not about shouting into the void but whispering to those who are actually listening. Mandy reminds us that the digital world is vast, but the corners where we find our kindred spirits are precious. It's less about impressing the crowd and more about connecting with the few who truly appreciate your uniqueness. Key takeaway: Don't lose yourself in the quest for likes and approval on LinkedIn. Authenticity is your superpower. For marketers, remember, it's the genuine connections that count, not the size of your audience. Focus on those who resonate with your true self, and you'll find not only your tribe but also your path to true professional fulfillment.
Mandy has this straightforward way of talking about managing marketing teams that feels like a breath of fresh air. She takes us behind the scenes of running an agency, where it’s all about juggling different accounts and making sure everyone’s rowing in the same direction. It’s this dance of making sure what you promise on one hand, you can actually deliver on the other. And it all boils down to something she calls mutual accountability - a two-way street where the team and leaders keep each other in check. The trick is to always have a clear picture of what’s doable. Mandy points out how essential it is to match up the team's workload with what clients are asking for. It's pretty much like saying, "Let's not bite off more than we can chew." If someone’s schedule is already packed, promising a client that their request can be done next week isn't just unrealistic; it's unfair to the team. It's about finding that sweet spot where the team's capacity meets client expectations without anyone having to burn the midnight oil unnecessarily. Mandy's a big fan of using smart tools to keep everything on track. She talks about something called teamwork, but it’s clear the real teamwork happens when these tools give everyone a clear view of the workload, deadlines, and what's at stake financially. It's not just about checking tasks off a list; it's about making informed decis... | |||
| 28 Jun 2022 | 63: Recaping takeaways from guest episodes in season 1 | 00:46:51 | |
Season 1 featured our first 50 episodes, 20 of which were guest episodes. In today’s episode we’re going to recap our key takeaways from each guest episode in season 1. Our first guest episode featured Lauren Sanborn, Director of RevOps at CallRail. She recently moved over to DataRobot, an AI cloud platform for Data Scientists. Aside from leaving us with several marketing and sales alignment tips, my favorite takeaway from Lauren was to not be so hard on yourself if you don’t know what you don’t want to do (for work). Her advice was to get out there and try different things so you can start to mark off what you don’t like. Eventually you’ll find something that you love.” Our next guest in episode 07 featured one of our most senior and perhaps most accomplished guest, Brian Leonard, former co-founder of TaskRabbit and now CEO of Grouparoo (recently acquired by Airbyte). Brian went pretty deep on the relationship with marketing and engineering and my favorite takeaway was that marketers and engineers shouldn’t think of themselves as doing completely different things inside a company. At the end of the day, both groups are there to move the needle on the business. So the best way to think of it is to come together to power the right stack. Instead of pitching to product, marketing needs this, pitch it as, the company needs this and this is how it will benefit everyone. For example, marketing attribution isn’t a marketing or a marketing ops thing. It’s a company thing. Next up was our boy Nick Donaldson in episode 10, fresh off a new consulting gig at Perkuto. Another marketer who’s moved on to another company, he’s now running Marketing Operations at Knak. Nick is wise beyond his years and my favorite takeaway from our chat with him was that the number 1 skill to succeed in marketing ops is curiosity. Early in your career Google and twitter are your best friends. There’s so many smart people that have been in your shoes and are nice enough to share those insights. Find them. Read them. Learn from them. So 10 episodes in and we already had a RevOps Director, a CEO and founder and a consultant. We also had a Professor. In episode 11 we were joined by friend of the show Jonathan Simon. This might have been controversial amongst his peers at the University but we’re happy to report he’s still in his current gig (lol). My favorite takeaway from our chat with Jonathan is that you don’t need a degree to have a successful and happy career in marketing anymore. More than anything, marketers need to be adaptable to changing tech and strive to be lifelong learners. He talked a lot about side hustles and starting something, in his course he actually gets all his students to start a blog and build something during their time there. Episode 17 featured Ottawa native Julie Beynon who leads analytics at Clearbit. Things got technical pretty fast but I think Julie did an awesome job introducing data warehousing and making it seem a lot less intimidating. My favorite takeaway was when she explained that a DWH doesn’t have row limits and isn’t limited by your laptop’s CPU. She loves a Google sheet as much as any data driven marketer, but at some point, startups need to upgrade from that clunkiness to a data warehouse solution. It’s been fun seeing the martech landscape shift from; APIs for everything and we integrate with all your tools to – we build on top of your data warehouse or we connect natively to Big Query. Keeping to the data theme, we had Steffen Heddebrandt in episode 19. Still almost a year later he’s trashing Google Analytics on LinkedIn (lol). He’s the co-founder of Dreamdata, an attribution solution for B2B startups and SMBs. Attribution still gets a bad rep, we heard Corey trash it in season 2, but Steffen has solved big pieces of this puzzle at his startup. My favorite takeaway from our convo was when he declared that when it comes to revenue attribution, GA is basically close to useless for B2B companies. Multi touch attribution software does sound like magic when you’ve tried to orchestrate it yourself, but give Dreamdata a spin if you’re still skeptical about it. Episode 25 featured Naomi Liu, Director of Global Marketing Ops at EFI. Naomi spends some of her time mentoring future marketing ops leaders and was hiring for an entry level marketer on her team at the time so we centered our conversation around how to ace your first marketing job. My favorite takeaway was when Naomi said that new marketers should be asking lots of questions. Be that annoying kid in the back seat asking all of the questions. Episode 27 featured friend of the show and local Ottawa social media maven Erin Blaskie. She recently made the switch from leading marketing at Fellow to go back to freelancing as a fractional CMO. My favorite takeaway was when we asked her how marketers should choose between the freelance route and working in house. She thinks everyone should try both. Throw out everyone else’s definition of success and make your own by trying different things. Big company, startup, agency, freelance, give them all a shot. In episode 37, we had another manager who was hiring on her team. Shannon McCluskey leads marketing ops at Clio and my favorite takeaway was when she described the role of marketing ops. We are not order takers, we’re active consultants designing our own destiny. Sometimes we need to evaluate solutions our partners haven’t thought of. We don’t always say yes to every request we’re given. Episode 39 featured co founder and CEO of Kank Peirce Ujainwalla. A well known face in the martech scene, we asked him to weigh in on the html vs text debate for emails. He said it’s important to do a mix of both. Text emails have that personal feel, but HTML is still super important for all your visual users and telling your brand story. Episode 41 featured another local Ottawa and social media expert and now head of marketing at Fellow – Manuela Barcenas. She’s also a productivity nut and my favorite takeaway was when she said that her biggest productivity superpower is knowing what to work on when you open your laptop in the morning. Time blocking and planning your week ahead of time by scheduling tasks and deep focus blocks. In episode 44, friend of the show Roxanne Pepin from Rewi... | |||
| 17 Aug 2021 | 47: Vladlena Mitskaniouk: Grow your marketing career one data mystery at a time | 00:29:57 | |
Hey everyone, today on the show we are joined by Vladlena Mitskaniouk, Director of Digital Marketing at Snyk. Born in Moldova, raised in Ottawa, she’s a communications grad who’s spent her decade plus career carving a craft in digital marketing and marketing analytics. She got her start at a real estate agency where she learned content marketing before working at MD Financial where she became Digital Marketing Manager and started getting really deep into tracking, analytics, marketing operations and advertising. Vladlena then transitioned to the tech industry where she led a Global marketing analytics and digital marketing team at Trend Micro. She’s now a year into her role as Director of Digital Marketing at Snyk — a security company for cloud native apps on a mission to make the world a safer place with more secure software. Vladlena thanks so much for chatting with us today!
Learning about your audience Vladlena, you’ve marketed to consumers in the real estate industry, physicians in the finance industry, Chief information officers in the cybersecurity industry and now developers in the cloud native application industry. Talk to us about your process for learning about your audience and your users when you start a new role? Starting out as a director Talk us through joining a marketing team at a director level on a remote team. For our listeners, what does that process look like and what are the first 90 days like? Buzzwords Digital marketing, analytics, operations -- how interchangeable are these to you? What skills are transferable and what skills are net new? Ops and analytics What should all marketers learn about operations and analytics? Demand for technical marketers IMO - The demand for specialized, technical marketers has never been higher. For folks looking to go that path, what advice do you have? How do you get the skills required? Roles at Snyk Talk to us about some of the open role(s) on your team, I counted 10 open reqs in the marketing department at Snyk! Continuous learning A quick look at your goodreads profile shows your love of non fiction books (The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail—But Some Don't and Standard Deviations: Flawed Assumptions, Tortured Data, and Other Ways to Lie with Statistics) -- You recently posted about being one of the first LinkedIn Ads certified--what’s the value of certifications from your perspective and maybe talk about how you handle continuous education? Last question We always end by asking our guests what tips they have for maintaining a healthy and balanced life? -- Vladlena on LinkedIn and twitter. ✌️ -- | |||
| 25 Feb 2025 | 158: Jeff Lee: How Calm’s Billion customer message machine unites martech and engineering | 00:51:05 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jeffrey Lee, Lifecycle Marketing Technical Lead at Calm. About Jeff
Product collaboration is the cornerstone of impactful marketing initiatives, yet many organizations struggle with this crucial partnership. Jeff's unconventional journey from engineering to marketing reveals a powerful framework for building authentic cross-team relationships that deliver both immediate results and long-term value. The Technical Foundation Most marketing teams fall into the trap of overwhelming engineering with urgent requests, only to face a wall of indifference. Jeff's engineering background helped him recognize that technical credibility forms the bedrock of successful collaboration. Rather than making desperate pleas for resources, he leveraged his technical expertise to create working prototypes that demonstrated clear business impact. His subscription management project exemplifies this approach. By bootstrapping a solution achieving 90% accuracy in promotional targeting, he transformed abstract marketing concepts into concrete engineering challenges. The remaining optimization represented pure customer experience enhancement and operational efficiency – metrics that resonated deeply with the engineering mindset. Building Emotional Capital The impact extends beyond technical competency into the realm of emotional intelligence and operational empathy. Engineers particularly value colleagues who demonstrate respect for their workflows and time constraints. Jeff's approach of presenting production-ready queries and implementation frameworks eliminated the typical friction of translating marketing requirements into technical specifications. This combination of technical fluency and operational understanding creates a powerful multiplier effect. When marketing teams blend technical capability with genuine empathy for engineering processes, they evolve from being perceived as an external burden to becoming a valued strategic partner. Each successful collaboration reinforces credibility and builds momentum for future innovations. Creating Sustainable Partnerships The formula for lasting engineering-marketing collaboration emerges from this dual focus on technical excellence and emotional intelligence: 1. Start with working prototypes that prove business value before requesting engineering resources The result is a partnership model that transcends traditional departmental divisions, creating sustainable value for both teams. By approaching collaboration through both technical and emotional lenses, marketing teams can transform skepticism into enthusiasm for projects that deliver meaningful impact across the organization. This framework provides a blueprint for marketing teams looking to build authentic engineering partnerships that drive innovation and results. The key lies in demonstrating both technical competence and operational empathy – proving value through tangible outcomes while building emotional capital through genuine understanding and respect for engineering workflows. Key takeaway: Win engineering trust by showing, not telling. Build working prototypes that demonstrate clear value, then present solutions in engineers' technical language while respecting their workflows. This combination of proven results and operational empathy transforms marketing from a burden into a valued partner, creating momentum for future collaboration.
Whether it’s product, martech or channels, sometimes decisions masquerade as data-driven choices but are actually running on raw emotion and bias. At Calm, adding push notifications sparked a three-year battle that exposed how deeply personal experiences shape enterprise product strategy. Through their struggle to balance user psychology with organizational resistance, we uncover essential principles for building sustainable engagement in mobile products. The Psychology Behind Product Resistance Product teams operate on gut reactions and personal biases more often than anyone wants to admit. At Calm, Jeff discovered this reality when a straightforward push notification feature turned into a three-year battle, exposing how deeply personal experiences shape product decisions at the highest levels. The resistance stemmed from visceral reactions to notification overload. Product leaders, scarred by their own encounters with aggressive casino apps and notification spam, projected these experiences onto Calm's notification strategy. Their instinct to protect the product from becoming "one of those apps" created a powerful organizational inertia, even in the face of compelling engagement data. The turning point arrived through an unexpected avenue: leadership turnover. A new Chief Product Officer, armed with positive experiences from previous roles, transformed the three-year roadmap struggle into a six-week sprint. This shift illuminates the stark reality of enterprise decision-making; technical complexity often plays second fiddle to personal conviction and past experiences. Jeff's evolution from email skeptic to engagement advocate mirrors this journey. His own transformation from viewing email as "the scammiest thing" to recognizing its profound impact on user engagement adds a layer of irony to his push notification crusade. Small-scale pilots proved ineffective at winning support because they failed to demonstrate the compound effects that emerge over time. Like SEO, the true power of these engagement channels only becomes apparent through sustained, systematic implementation. Industry-Standard Functionalities is More Important Than Competitive Dynamics Competitive pressure normally drives product decisions, except when you're number one in the market. Jeff experienced this paradox at Calm, where their market leadership position actually worked against the adoption of push notifications. The common rationale? "We're number one. We don't need to do what others are doing to catch up." This mentality exposes a fascinating blind spot in product strategy. While lagging competitors enthusiastically embrace proven engagement channels, market leaders sometimes cocoon themselves in a false sense of security. Their position at the top becomes a psychological barrier to adopting industry-standard features, creating vulnerability to more nimble competitors. The definitive proof of push notifications' value emerged through an accidental experiment. When discussing hypothetical scenarios about turning off push n... | |||
| 17 Jan 2023 | 64: Procrastinator’s guide to Google Analytics 4 | 00:28:50 | |
Universal Analytics is sunsetting in July 2023, and its replacement, Google Analytics 4, isn’t exactly getting a warm reception. For digital marketers, SEOs, analysts, and basically anyone else who got used to GA3 over the past decade, it’s a bitter pill to swallow. Ok, I’ll confess: I’ve been a bit further behind on Google Analytics 4 than I wanted. Like many marketers, I struggle to balance martech innovation against the reality of my day-to-day life. I admit I had been procrastinating on learning GA4, but no more. I’ve spent the last few months going as deep as I can on GA4 and, by extension Google Tag Manager. I’m not going to sit here and tell you that GA4 is Google’s gift to digital marketing – I think it’s still an immature platform. I am going to tell you GA4 is getting a much worse rap that it deserves precisely because so many marketers have been deep in GA3/UA for so long. Changing habits is tough, and GA4 makes it more challenging because of a new interface, not too mention a completely different approach to web analytics. No big deal - you can learn all this in a Sunday afternoon, right? Yeah, that’s going to be tough. Today I’m going to give a procrastinator’s guide to GA4. If you’re expecting me to complain about GA3, this episode isn’t for you. We’ll mourn the loss of GA3, briefly, but then move on to making the most of this situation. I don’t think GA4 is all bad – actually, GA4 is pretty slick and I think if it weren’t for the contrast to its predecessor, many folks would be pretty happy with GA4. – – – Alright JT, it’s great to be back behind the mic. We’re starting off with a fun one here. I’ll admit I’ve been out of touch with top of funnel reporting and analytics for the last couple years so I’m excited to learn about GA4. There’s rightfully been a lot of noise since its release in October 2020… maybe we can start there actually, the Google decision. Google has basically said that they are making the switch from Universal Analytics (UA) to Google Analytics 4 (GA4) in order to provide users with “more advanced tracking for digital marketers” But aside from new features like automated events, cross-device reporting and BQ support, there’s a lot more behind the decision to make the switch. Why is Google making the switch from UA to GA4? Needs attribution:
What are the important dates and why are they important July 1, 2023, data collection stops. 6 months later, you won’t be able to access your data You’ve got 6 months to move to GA4 or another web analytics solution or you’ll be flying blind… You need a solution for your historic data (excel, bigquery, or API) Sounds like it’s time to put down that Netflix remote, grab a cup of coffee, and dive into the exciting world of GA4! It seems like such a big hurdle… JT, how can marketers start to learn GA4? How do I learn GA4 There’s going to be a few layers to learning GA4. Let’s break it out into 2 roles:
There’s a whole episode or series about Google Tag Manager we could do, but the short of it is that GTM gives you a huge toolset to do tons of cool stuff: event tracking, sending additional data through dataLayer, and modifying your implementation without having to directly modify your website. If you’re not already using GTM, GA4 should push you to start using it. For digital marketers and analysts, the task is about getting used to the new interface, migrating configuration settings from GA3, and making a habit of pulling reports from GA4. The big hurdle here is matching up the data from both tools – because I’ve never actually seen both tools give the same number. I think this is what people are most unprepared for: the new reporting paradigm and definitions. Things like users have modified definitions, in no small part because GA4 is better at tracking individual users and corrects known errors in GA3. However, whenever a disparity in the numbers arise, much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth ensues… So getting it installed and playing around with new features is one of the first things folks should be doing. Data history and collection is important. These new features are more powerful and are said to help you better understand and optimize your digital marketing efforts… JT, what are some of the new features that excite you the most compared to UA vs GA4? What is different between GA3 & GA4 Bounce rate, conversion tracking, user definitions; Event-based approach, more akin to product analytics tools, and, frankly, this is better for modern web (problem: vast majority of sites aren’t on modern tech)
No, still more than enough in GTM. Enhanced Measurement gives us some events out of the box that seem to mostly work for some websites. Events are much better in GA4 – can send custom parameters One thing a lot of folks mention is improved cross-device reporting, have you dived into this? How is Google associating traffic from multiple devices to unique users? I’m more of a Redshift guy than Big Query these days but I do feel like the switch to GA4 is also pushing many users to adopting Big Query right? GA4 includes native support for BigQuery integration, which allows you to connect your GA4 data with other data sources in Google BigQuery. JT what do you like the most about GA4 so far? Is it the Conversion Probability report or the Customer Lifetime Value report? Or just the new UI and design? What does Jon like about GA4? It might seem like putting lipstick on a pig, but I kind of like GA4. Maybe I’m just coping a bit or being obstinately positive, but change is the name of martech. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to switch tools against my will, and it won’t be the last. Everything is a tool, and GA4 is no different. Events are customizable and don’t have to send same parameters/fields as UA. You can send anything which is powerful when looking at custom data.
Do you know what this looks like practically? Can you push segments of these users to BQ then Hubspot and send custom emails or better yet, to your product and surface different offerings? So like we said, there are many wa... | |||
| 17 Sep 2024 | 137: Liam Moroney: Rethinking measurement by balancing pipeline, brand, and long-term value in a nonlinear world | 01:02:03 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Liam Moroney, Co-Founder of Storybook Marketing.
About Liam
Marketing, historically viewed as the "arts and crafts department," has evolved significantly. Yet, according to Liam, there’s a lingering misperception, particularly in B2B, that needs addressing. When asked about his concerns with marketing being reduced to a mere pipeline number, Liam didn’t shy away from dissecting the issue. It’s not about rejecting accountability—marketing should indeed own a number. The real problem lies in how we've overcorrected, narrowing the focus to such an extent that it undermines the broader role marketing plays. Liam points out that this shift in perception—driven by the need to demonstrate that marketing is a data-driven, outcome-producing function—has caused demand generation to become nearly synonymous with marketing. This reductionist view oversimplifies marketing’s contribution. When marketing is pigeonholed into a single metric, such as its share of the overall pipeline, it suggests that marketing is just another channel, responsible only for a fraction of the sales process. This perspective shortchanges the true purpose of marketing. Liam believes that marketing's ultimate goal is to make the sales process smoother and more efficient. When more people know about a product, believe in its value, and have confidence in its efficacy, selling becomes easier. Marketing should be responsible for influencing the entire pipeline, not just a portion of it. The role of marketing is to make deals faster, bigger, and more frequent. By restricting marketing’s scope to its contribution to the pipeline, we inadvertently diminish its impact. In B2C, marketing drives consumers directly to purchase. In B2B, it drives prospects into the sales process, partnering with salespeople to guide the purchase decision. While the dynamics differ, the overarching responsibility remains the same: marketing should facilitate the entire journey, not just the initial steps. Key takeaway: Marketing should not be reduced to a pipeline number. Its true value lies in its ability to influence and enhance the entire sales process, driving not just awareness but also belief, confidence, and ultimately, conversion.
When asked about the perception that marketing hides behind long-term goals to avoid accountability, Liam was quick to dispel this myth. He argues that marketing isn’t unique in balancing both short and long-term objectives—many functions, like data science and financial advising, operate with a future-oriented perspective. Yet, marketing often faces undue scrutiny because it’s expected to produce immediate, tangible results each quarter. Liam acknowledges that some of this mistrust is self-inflicted. Marketing has, at times, oversold its capabilities and doubled down on being seen solely as a pipeline-generating function. This narrow focus has contributed to the misconception that marketing’s only job is to deliver immediate results. However, Liam emphasizes that marketing's true role is both long-term and short-term. The primary objective is to generate future customers by building awareness, while also activating efforts that yield results today. In B2B and B2C alike, successful marketing requires a dual approach. Brand awareness campaigns, for example, are designed to create a long-term impact by making more people aware of a product. Simultaneously, demand generation activities work to convert that awareness into action. The two functions are interdependent—effective demand gen relies on strong brand awareness, and vice versa. Liam draws an interesting parallel with B2C marketing, where the distinction between long and short-term strategies is often clearer. Brand campaigns might run over months or years to build awareness, while in-store promotions are designed to trigger immediate purchases. The same principles apply in B2B marketing, where demand gen efforts must be supported by a solid foundation of brand awareness. Without this balance, even the best demand gen strategies will falter. Key takeaway: Marketing must balance long-term brand building with short-term activation efforts. Success comes from integrating these approaches, ensuring that immediate demand generation is supported by strong brand awareness.
When marketers find themselves trapped by the constant demand for immediate pipeline results, it can be challenging to advocate for the long-term value of brand building. Liam addresses this issue head-on, acknowledging that while it’s easy to champion long-term thinking on platforms like LinkedIn, the reality for in-house marketers is different. Every marketer has targets to meet, and failure to hit those can lead to quick dismissal. However, Liam emphasizes that this doesn’t mean abandoning the long-term strategy—rather, it’s about balancing both while educating leadership on what brand marketing truly entails. Liam points out that part of the problem lies in a lack of education—both for marketers and the C-suite. Marketers need to articulate better what brand marketing is and how it contributes to the overall business objectives. However, the burden of education doesn’t end there. Liam advises against the common notion of only working for CEOs who "get" marketing, as those opportunities are rare. Instead, much of the work involves reeducating leaders on the role and impact of marketing. The key, according to Liam, is alignment with the sales team. If sales perceive that marketing isn’t contributing to their efforts, it can create friction that quickly undermines marketing’s initiatives. By engaging in conversations with sales, marketers can uncover the real challenges that hinder sales efforts. For instance, if sales teams find themselves consistently listed last in RFPs, it might indicate a brand awareness issue. Or, if there’s a widespread misconception about pricing, that points to a perception problem that marketing can address. By identifying these pain points and framing them as marketing challenges, marketers can gain the trust of their sales counterparts. This trust can, in turn, lead to greater permission to allocate resources toward long-term brand-building efforts. It’s not an overnight process, but Liam stresses that when done correctly,... | |||
| 12 Nov 2024 | 145: Barbara Galiza: The inconvenient truths of attribution no one wants to admit | 00:57:29 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Barbara Galiza, Growth and Marketing Analytics Consultant. Summary: Attribution is a bit like navigating Amsterdam’s canals: mesmerizing but full of hidden turns that don’t always make sense. You don’t need to chart every twist—just focus on finding the direction that moves you forward. Instead of obsessing over every click, use attribution like a compass, not a GPS. Multi-touch attribution (MTA) gives you some of the story, but often misses those quiet yet powerful nudges that drive real decisions. Layering in rule-based or incrementality testing can fill the gaps, giving a clearer picture of what’s driving your wins. For startups, it’s even simpler: stick to what’s working and forget complex attribution—qualitative feedback is often the best guide in the early days. Data doesn’t need to be perfect, just practical, and sometimes trusting that a strategy is working is enough to keep pushing it. About Barbara
Data literacy is essential for modern marketers, but it doesn't have to be intimidating. Barbara’s advice is simple: learn SQL. While marketers today are surrounded by user-friendly tools and drag-and-drop interfaces, those who want to truly grasp their data should get comfortable with SQL. It’s not about becoming a data engineer but about understanding how the numbers you rely on every day are built. SQL helps you see how data connects, how it’s organized, and how you can group it to make sense of what’s happening in your campaigns. What’s great is that you don’t need to dive into formal classes or certifications. Start where you are. Most companies are sitting on a goldmine of structured marketing data, whether it’s Google Analytics data in BigQuery or Amplitude events stored in a data warehouse. The next time you’re building a report, try using SQL for a small part of the process. It’s a skill that compounds over time. Once you get familiar with the basics, you’ll start to see data in a different way, and you’ll be able to spot insights faster. Barbara also points out a crucial, often overlooked skill: understanding why your tools give credit to certain campaigns. Why does one Facebook ad outperform others in your reports? Why does Google Analytics attribute more conversions to certain sources? Getting to the bottom of these questions puts you in a much stronger position as a marketer. If you can explain how attribution models work and why certain data points appear, you're already ahead of most. At the end of the day, it’s about making smarter decisions. Barbara believes that marketers who can confidently say, “I know why these numbers look the way they do,” are in the top 10% of data-driven marketers. It’s not just about collecting data; it’s about making sense of it and using it to steer your strategies. Key takeaway: Learning SQL gives marketers the power to truly understand their data. Starting small, even with basic queries, can unlock a deeper understanding of how marketing data is structured and why campaigns perform the way they do. The key is to build practical skills that help you make more informed decisions.
Barbara brings clarity to two commonly conflated concepts: attribution and measurement. While many marketers default to thinking of attribution as purely click-based or multi-touch attribution (MTA), Barbara challenges this view. She argues that attribution goes beyond just tracking clicks and touches throughout a customer’s journey. It’s about understanding the overall impact of marketing efforts—whether through incrementality tests, media mix modeling (MMM), or holdout groups. Attribution is meant to explain how marketing drives results, but it’s not the only tool for assessing campaign success. MTA, particularly click-based models, excels at measuring bottom-funnel actions like search marketing, where high-intent users click on an ad and then convert. This method works well for campaigns that rely on clicks to move the needle. However, Barbara notes that it has its limitations, especially when it comes to non-click-based channels like video or display. MTA often over-credits search campaigns because that’s where the conversion is tracked, but it misses the broader influence of awareness-building efforts. In essence, MTA can tell you what happened after the click, but not what inspired it in the first place—be it a podcast mention or an engaging piece of content seen days before. On a broader level, Barbara explains that attribution is not the same as measurement. Attribution focuses specifically on tying marketing efforts to business results, such as leads or revenue. Measurement, on the other hand, casts a wider net. It includes performance across various metrics, not just conversions. For instance, measuring how well different messaging resonates with audiences is crucial, but it doesn’t always directly lead to immediate sales. Measurement can inform future strategies by offering insights into engagement, customer preferences, and channel effectiveness. As Barbara sees it, attribution is a subset of measurement. It’s a tool for understanding what drives business outcomes, but it shouldn’t be the only tool marketers rely on. For example, MTA has its place but should be used alongside other models like MMM to paint a fuller picture. Measurement, meanwhile, helps marketers assess the effectiveness of everything from messaging to customer touchpoints, beyond just the end goal of conversion. Key takeaway: Attribution is one piece of the measurement puzzle, focusing on business outcomes, while measurement encompasses a broader range of insights. Marketers should use a mix of attribution models to understand their campaigns and apply measurement tools to gain a holistic view of performance.
Multi-touch attribution (MTA) is often seen as a way to distribute credit across different customer touchpoints, but Barbara questions its effectiveness in this role. She argues that MTA is inherently limited because it only attributes credit to interactions that involve a click. This creates a skewed view of the customer journey, where only click-driven strategies—like search ads—are recognized, leaving other key touchpoints, like connected TV (CTV) or social media, out of the equation. The result is a narrow perspective that doesn't capture the full influence of various channels. Barbara points out that for marketers to make better decisions, MTA needs more than just click data. One alternative she suggests is pairing MTA with rule-based attribution models, where data from "How did you hear about us?" surveys are integrated into the analysis. This way, marketers can capture insights from channels that don’t typically generate clicks but still play a crucial role in driving awareness or consideration. By adding this type of first-party data, businesses get a broader understanding of what’s really influencing their customers. Some data agencies are also experimenting with es... | |||
| 30 May 2023 | 73: The art of healthy escapism and the importance of disconnecting from work | 00:46:48 | |
Today, we are diving deep into a topic that's pertinent in our fast-paced, hyper-connected world… no not AI, taking a break from that haha - Talking about escapism, and the importance of disconnecting from work. On the show we like to balance the hard martech topics but also the human angle. This is an episode that feels quite timely. In a time where being 'always-on' is the norm, and our work Slack is just a ping away, it's crucial to understand the significance of stepping back. Escapism isn't just about dodging reality or ignoring responsibilities; it's about giving our minds the necessary break to recharge and rejuvenate. I’m a big fan of fiction and love sharing top TV show and book picks and always wanted to find an excuse to do this on the podcast so what better way to do it then an episode about the benefits of escapism and detaching from work. So stay tuned later in the episode for my fav TV shows and books. Here’s today’s main takeaway: When used properly, escapism through fictional narratives is an essential aspect of maintaining our mental health, enhancing our overall creativity and helping us become better humans. The irony of recording this episode on the weekend isn’t lost on me, but this is my hobby and we’re having our best month ever on the podcast so I wanted to keep the momentum going and continue giving JT a bit of a break. Here’s a quick outline of what I’ll cover today:
I’ll start off by confessing that I didn’t always think this (that escapism is an essential aspect of maintaining our mental health and enhancing our creativity). In my younger career, I fully embodied the idea that an hour spent on learning things that can’t help your career is an hour wasted. If I read a book, it was about business or marketing. If I was listening to a podcast, it was about marketing automation. If I was reading a blog or a newsletter, it was about martech. If I was watching Youtube videos it was Photoshop tutorials. While this is great and likely contributed to increased performance at work, it didn’t give my brain the break it needed to disconnect from work topics. Movies and TV shows were the exception though. If I watched a movie it was sometimes a documentary about consumerism or psychology but movies were where I got my main dose of fiction. I grew up an avid movie buff and watched all the classics and most of IMDB’s top 250 movies of all time. I didn’t grow up in a household with workaholic parents but they did love their work. My dad, specifically a photographer and video editor, spent a lot of his down time watching youtube videos and tutorials following industry tech and other photographers. He’s definitely a source for instilling this growth mindset in me. But what he also did was read a lot of books. Some non fiction biographies, but lots, lots of fiction. John Sandford, Ian Rankin, Peter James. I guess it kind of instilled this idea that you can be amazing at your craft, but still indulge in fiction. I’ve had several jobs that you could describe as high expectation, high pressure. I remember when the shift to remote work began a few years back. Working from home was initially exciting. No commuting, being in the comfort of my own space, it sounded amazing. But soon, the boundaries between my work life and personal life began to fade. My home was my office, and my office was my home. I found myself answering Slack messages on the couch and at dinner time and checking email campaign reports late into the night. The expectation to almost always be online to answer questions for teammates that work in different time zones was real. Reflecting back, my health took a hit, my personal relationships suffered and my anxiety grew. Some days were always more stressful than others, but I think aside from learning to build boundaries and deleting Slack on my phone, one of my coping mechanisms and what inspired my ability to separate work from home was the ability to disconnect, mainly through fiction. Definitions I should’ve started with this disclaimer, I’m not a psychologist or a counselor. I do work for a startup conquering addiction that employs a large group of clinicians and counselors, but I’m not an expert. I’m not saying, watching movies and reading books and ignoring your life responsibilities is the key to managing stress. It’s worth unpacking the positive and negative lights of escapism. Let’s start with defining the concept of escapism.
The common definition of escapism is a psychological concept where a person distances themselves from the realities of life, often as a coping mechanism to alleviate stress. This disengagement from reality can take on various forms, including immersive experiences in music, books, movies, video games, or other hobbies. I like to think of escapism less as an escape from reality and more as the ability to seek solace in alternative realities to give you a different perspective on your current reality instead of just focusing on the unpleasant or mundane aspects of everyday life and work. It’s a way of stepping outside of yourself, so to speak, to get distractions or find relief from real life.
More simply, escapism is temporarily diverting your attention from the routine of daily life. That’s what many refer to as healthy escapism. Healthy escapism isn't about avoiding reality, but taking necessary breaks to recharge. These breaks diving into fiction stimulate different areas of the brain, promoting overall mental well-being. But remember, the key is balance. All forms of escapism can be beneficial when used mindfully and in moderation.
There are several psychologists who perceive escapism negatively. Often thought of as a way to avoid responsibilities. Excessive escapism could cause individuals to become increasingly disconnected from reality. It can become a crutch that inhibits personal growth and problem-solving, and in extreme cases, it can escalate into addictive behaviors. It’s worth calling this out. Some even argue that escapism is the opposite of mindfulness (source). While it's true that escapism can be a diversion from facing reality and seemingly at odds with mindfulness, it doesn't have to be seen in such a negative light. Engaging in a good book, video game, or movie, can provide a needed break from reality, which is not only healthy but necessary in managing stress. It gives us time to recharge and provides a mental buffer to deal with life and work. I’ll make the case more i... | |||
| 23 Jul 2024 | 129: Re: Why Martech is Actually for Engineers | 00:52:25 | |
What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now. Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims. Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.
So the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating: “I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.” Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight. But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.” We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category. Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not. I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future. Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why. His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers. I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts. What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?
Martech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most Engineers Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints. She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea that martech will decline due to competition from in-house engineers and platform limitations. "I don't think martech is the sexiest thing for an engineer to do," she noted. Vish argued that talented engineers building martech are more likely to work for CRM companies to enhance their products rather than find in-house martech development appealing. Vish explained that building a CRM in-house is often not the best approach. She emphasized that knowing popular systems like Customerio, Marketo, and HubSpot adds more value. She questioned the practicality of finding the right talent for in-house solutions, given the complexities and specialized skills required. Regarding the idea that successful martech companies cater primarily to engineers, Vish disagreed. "Martech teams are actually part engineer, part product marketer, part IT person, part biz ops," she said. She believes the value of an operations professional lies not in owning and maintaining tech but in resolving business problems by aligning the right people, technology, and tools to accelerate pipeline generation. The engineering work in martech spans across data, data engineering, IT, and business operations, but this is just one aspect of a martech professional's role. Vish also questioned the notion that the rise of in-house engineers creating tailored solutions for their companies will lead to a decline in martech. "Just because you can, should you?" she asked. She emphasized the importance of a good quantification model and total cost of ownership (TCO) analysis when comparing in-house engineering teams to martech solutions. She highlighted the challenges of integrating customer and product data in a compliant manner, which often requires a holistic approach. "It's not just your martech stack; where's your customer data living? Where is your product data living?" Vish noted. These challenges often make martech an operational project rather than just a marketing function. Ultimately, Vish believes that martech will never be just for engineering. The value of a martech professional lies in understanding what marketers want to achieve and enabling them to get there. "The value is being able to see this is what the marketer wants to do, and here’s how we can enable them to get there and measure success," she explained. This holistic view is crucial for martech to function effectively, a perspective she feels engineers alone may not fully capture. Key takeaway: In-house martech development is off-putting for most seasoned marketers. The preference is usually with popular systems like Customerio and HubSpot. Also, Martech just isn't that appealing to engineers. So martech can’t just be for engineers, it requires a blend of skills from marketing, IT, and operations. The real value of martech lies in enabling marketers and measuring success, a role not easily filled by engineers. Engineers Can’t Stand the Chaos of Marketing So far we’ve uncovered two themes: Marketers don’t find homegrown tools that appealing and engineers don’t find martech sexy. But why? Why isn’t martech appealing for engineers? Let’s hear from the legendary Sara McNamara, former Senior Manager, Marketing Operations at Salesforce.. Her answer stemmed from the complexities and cultural challenges of integrating engineering into marketing operations. Sara began by acknowledging the trend of engineers becoming more involved in creating custom solutions for marketing. However, she expressed skepticism about marketing operations teams becoming predominantly composed of engineers. She explained, "A lot of the engineers I've worked with cannot stand the chaos of marketing." Engineers typically prefer clear requirements and stable projects, while marketing often involves rapid changes and freque... | |||
| 15 Dec 2020 | 12: Lifecycle: A Martech Saga part 1: Future-proof your Martech with lifecycle | 00:25:48 | |
Main takeaway: Set yourself up for long term success with a solid Lifecycle program. Not only does it help you exert control and mastery over your reporting, it provides a framework for having tough discussions between sales & marketing. It opens up career opportunities - average salary according to glassdoor and others for lifecycle marketing manager is $80-$120K - yeah, you unlock big value for your own career. This topic is too big for a single post, so here’s what’s in store:
Traditionally, a lot of companies refer to leads as if you’re taking their temperature. Hot medium and cold leads. The system isn’t really based off of metrics and is not an effective way to sort leads for sales. There’s no consideration for a lead’s progression from first visit to conversion then to customer. In this scenario, marketing and sales often clash because there’s no system in place to create alignment. Sales isn’t tackling leads in the most optimal way. Marketing is generating leads that sales might not care about. What is lifecycle, JT? How do you define it? Lifecycle is the journey contacts in your database take to become a customer. It mirrors your typical funnel journey and operates in much the same way. Unlike funnel, lifecycle is a bit more specific to conditions in your database. Your funnel has basic stages that describe the buyer’s journey: awareness through interest, evaluation, purchase, etc. They are totally compatible! But lifecycle requires data properties or fields in your marketing automation platform to track. Everyone gets lost in acronym land. Enterprise teams largely follow the standards from the SiriusDecisions waterfall model. What are the standard stages as you see it, and do you think they have to be customized/adapted for each company? Let’s run through them quick:
Of course, you can do whatever you want! I’m not your mother! This is a cross section of the database. To me, this is table stakes for any MAP. Benefits are huge but can be summed up in two points:
So I’m putting my startup hat on, maybe the ops person on that team is wearing many other hats and doesn’t have time to build all these fields and time stamps and create all this alignment. If you don’t have the cycle, at lest start with master lifecycle lists. Some kind of way to get a sense of what stage people are in your db. Because this is a big project, there’s no getting around that. Multiple teams agreeing on definitions and standard operating procedures. So like every problem, there’s a systems and tech side, how to implement what's possible, but there’s the human side, if we build this, will it be used, is this helping people? Do people even want this? What makes this project so hard? Lots of stakeholders, the people side is so much harder. Lots of things that need to be agreed upon. Can be sprawling and daunting if your DB is a mess. Needs long term follow up after deployment to be successful.
It’s 101 for anyone looking to go deep into marketing operations and opens up a super cool avenue for your career. It will allow you to attain mastery over your database. It opens up career opportunities - average salary according to glassdoor and others for lifecycle marketing manager is $120K - yeah, you unlock big value for your own career.
If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here: www.humansofmartech.com. -- | |||
| 11 Jul 2023 | 79: Aliaksandra Lamachenka: The rise of data product managers and the organic evolution of AI in marketing | 00:46:12 | |
What’s up folks, today we’re joined by Aliaksandra Lamachenka, Marketing Technology Consultant and Nonprofit founder. Summary: Aliaksandra takes us on a journey through the evolving AI landscape in marketing, promising a future shaped by deep human expertise and broad understanding, all areas where AI is still playing catch up. The episode is ripe with insights about the rise of hybrid, business-savvy data product managers, who are subtly revolutionizing martech by marrying marketing perspectives with innovative thinking. They are unearthing overlooked insights, much like Duolingo, which leveraged data science to redefine its target metrics and boost its DAU. Amidst the din of the composable vs packaged CDPs debate, Aliaksandra brings our attention back to the basics - the crucial need for quality, traceable data. This illuminates the pivotal role of open data hubs, which could unlock the next chapter in efficient data management and utilization. Meanwhile, vendors of composable data platforms face a crossroads: will they expand to cater to growing customer needs or hold fast to their roots? Their decision could very well shape the future of martech, steering its course towards either the democratization of data or maintenance of the status quo. About Aliaksandra
The Organic Evolution of AI in Marketing and Lessons from Architectural History Aliaksandra takes a particularly compelling approach to understanding the potential role of AI in marketing. Drawing a unique analogy from the records of Japanese architectural history, she paints a picture of how AI's integration could be less of a disruptive force, but rather an organic and gradual process. Following the Second World War, a group of young Japanese architects refused to view architecture as merely a functional tool. They envisioned buildings as living organisms, an idea that later came to be known as "Japanese metabolism." These architects designed structures with a central spine, to which they could add or subtract modular capsules as needed. At the time, their ideas were regarded as revolutionary, indicative of what the future would undoubtedly hold. Decades later, their concepts have not been realized in their envisioned form, mainly being used for storage purposes, yet they have certainly left an indelible mark. The idea of high modularity, the foundational spine with small attachable elements, is now visible in various facets of our lives. You can observe it in modular housing, landscape-integrated buildings, and even in the functionality of platforms like Pandora, Tesla, or the App Store. Aliaksandra sees AI's trajectory in a similar light. Like the revolutionary architectural concepts of the past, AI's ideas may appear bold and groundbreaking. However, their integration will likely be more gradual than anticipated, quietly shaping our future. Much like the world adapted to the concepts of modularity, so too will it adapt to AI. Just as we accept modular buildings as a natural part of our world today, in 20 or 50 years, AI's presence in marketing will feel just as natural and intrinsic. AI won't displace marketers overnight but will instead weave itself into the fabric of the profession organically. Takeaway: The progression of AI in marketing is not likely to be a sudden, disruptive force. Instead, as Aliaksandra's rich analogy suggests, AI will bring about a natural evolution in the field, slowly but surely shaping its future. AI and the Future of Early-Stage Marketing Careers, Depth, Breadth, and Generalism One of Aliaksandra’s key points is the future value of professionals who can operate at the intersection of different industries or specialties. In a world where the boundaries between industries are blurring, being an expert in more than one field could be a significant advantage. For instance, understanding both engineering and marketing, or medicine and business, can provide a broader perspective and unique insights. In the future job market, the collision of different worlds could be the breeding ground for innovation. However, depth of expertise remains equally critical, and this is something Aliaksandra wishes she had realized earlier in her career. She warns against the temptation of becoming a generalist too early on, of trying to learn a little bit of everything. Instead, she suggests starting by deepening expertise in one or two fields, then gradually acquiring knowledge in additional areas. This approach allows for a solid foundation of deep expertise paired with a broad understanding, a balance that she believes could be crucial for early-career success in the evolving landscape. Lastly, she draws our attention to the inherently generalistic nature of AI language models, like ChatGPT. These models are designed to draw on a wide range of sources and generalize information, lacking the depth of expertise that humans can have. In this regard, individuals with profound expertise in their field have an advantage, as it would be challenging for a language model to compete with their specialized knowledge. Takeaway: The future of marketing careers may lie in cultivating a blend of deep expertise, cross-industry knowledge, and a broad understanding. Above all, it's the depth of human expertise that AI has yet to match. The Impact of Business-Oriented Machine Learning/Data Product Managers in Martech Teams Aliaksandra opened up about her experiences working with these dynamic professionals known as business-oriented machine learning/data product managers. Their passion for growth and marketing sets them apart as natural innovators. Interestingly, their lack of traditional marketing knowledge or business processes doesn't limit them, but rather fuels their innovative mindset. She explained that these professionals constantly challenge established beliefs and norms within the team. They aren't afraid to question the reasoning behind the set processes and methodologies. This sense of inquisitiveness often leads to uncovering novel perspectives and solutions that may have been neglected due to the team's ingrained biases. Another area where these data product managers excel is in their effective collaboration with engineering teams. With a firm grasp of technical complexities and trade-offs, they can have meaningful exchanges with engineers, propose manageable initiatives, and break down larger projects into smaller, achievable parts. In essence, they're the link between the marketing and engineering teams, bringing valuable perspectives to both sides. However... | |||
| 09 Mar 2021 | 24: Why marketers should learn to code | 00:25:07 | |
Ever get stuck waiting on a dev to update a small piece of code to fix a form/email/webpage? How about the confidence that comes from speaking at eye-level with development? Marketers have so much to gain from learning even a baseline of code. In this episode, JT is going to make the case on why you should learn some code, and I’m going to introduce you to a new community focused on helping marketers learn to code. Dude, you are always talking to me about coding. Share with our listeners your own journey. What is unique about marketers wanting to learn how to code? How hard is it to learn coding? It’s going to take time to learn to code. How do you stay motivated over the long-haul? Detach learning to code form your career -- make it a side-hobby with no implications on your job Devil’s advocate: why not just spin up a webflow website or some other no-code option? I know you’re itching to introduce it: tell our listeners about the community. | |||
| 05 Mar 2024 | 109: Deborah Mayen: Logitech’s Head of MOps on simplifying martech and antifragile cultures to withstand chaos | 00:46:09 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Debbie Mayen, Head of Marketing Operations at Logitech. Summary: Debbie went from dreaming of diplomacy to steering the global martech ship at Logitech and takes us through a masterclass in making well timed bets and the art of simplifying martech. Her marketing operations mantra includes clear processes, open lines of communication, and giving her team the reins to shine. She walks us through why she’s big on the whole marketing-meets-IT vibe, pushing for teamwork that taps into the best of both. And how her focus on celebrating wins and building an anti-fragile culture is key to withstanding chaos and uncertainty in a profession riddled with burnout. About Deborah Deborah got her start as an International Project Manager where she led big IT projects, and later pivoted to international MARCOM projects and bizdev Embracing Nonlinear Paths into Martech Debbie's foray into the world of martech is a tale of unexpected turns and adaptation. Growing up with a nomadic lifestyle due to her father's career in the oil industry, Debbie was exposed to diverse cultures and languages from an early age. This multicultural upbringing sparked an initial desire to pursue a career in international law or diplomacy. However, as she ventured through university, the reality of the constant movement and its impact on family life led her to reconsider her career trajectory. Opting for a more stable living situation, Debbie still yearned to maintain her connection to the international sphere. This longing eventually steered her toward the realm of international business, landing her a role at Encyclopedia Britannica, focusing on the Latin American market. It was here, amidst the challenge of managing a vast geographic area with a limited budget, that Debbie stumbled upon martech. In the early days of martech, with fewer than 200 vendors and most tools available only in English, resources were scarce. Yet, this did not deter Debbie. Leveraging tools like Silverpop, she ingeniously maximized her small budget to achieve significant impact across Latin America. This experience not only honed her skills but also ignited a passion for martech, drawn to its capacity for measurable results and efficient campaign management without the need for expanding her team. Debbie's entry into martech was born out of necessity but flourished into a deep-seated love for the field. Her journey reflects a seamless blend of her identity and her professional path, showcasing how embracing change and leveraging available resources can lead to unexpected and rewarding destinations. Key Takeaway: Debbie's transition from aspiring diplomat to martech enthusiast underscores the power of adaptability and the unexpected paths our careers can take. Her story is a testament to the impact of embracing one’s background and challenges as opportunities for growth and innovation in the ever-evolving martech landscape.
Debbie's entrance into the martech scene came at a time when the landscape was vastly different from today's sprawling ecosystem. Reflecting on Scott Brinker's landscape charts, she recalls a period of consolidation and the nascent stages of martech, drawing parallels to the current explosion of AI tools in the sector. For Debbie, the early days presented both challenges and opportunities. The relatively small number of tools available meant she could delve deeper into the resources at her disposal, turning limitations into advantages. This era of martech was marked by significant acquisitions, such as Silverpop's integration into IBM's portfolio and Pardot's acquisition by Salesforce, signifying the beginning of industry consolidation. For Debbie, being part of the martech field from its inception allowed her to develop a comprehensive understanding of marketing automation platforms, a knowledge that would set the foundation for her future expertise. Her early start in martech endowed her with the ability to navigate the ever-expanding landscape without getting overwhelmed by the plethora of choices available today. Debbie's journey underscores the importance of foundational knowledge and the advantage of focusing deeply on available tools before branching out. As the martech landscape continues to grow, her experience offers valuable lessons in staying grounded amidst the noise and the allure of new technologies. Key Takeaway: Debbie's early experiences in the evolving martech landscape highlight the benefits of deep specialization and a focused approach to technology adoption. Her story is a testament to the power of leveraging limited resources for maximum impact and the importance of discerning evaluation in the face of rapid industry expansion.
Debbie champions a philosophy of simplicity in navigating the galaxy of martech tools. She believes in a measured approach, cautioning against the allure of new technologies without a clear understanding of organizational needs. For Debbie, each addition to the martech stack represents not just potential benefits but also added complexity and potential debt. She emphasizes a cost-benefit analysis to ensure the advantages of any new tool significantly outweigh the costs, considering factors like team workload, system integration, and the tool's alignment with the company's evolving goals. This practical mindset extends to prioritizing work-life balance for her team and ensuring that any new technology seamlessly integrates into existing systems without creating unnecessary burdens. Debbie's old-school martech perspective of "less is more" serves as a guiding principle, advocating for a focus on what truly adds value and drives forward the company's objectives. Key Takeaway: Debbie's strategy in martech selection is grounded in simplicity and practicality, underscoring the importance of a discerning approach to tool adoption. Her advice encourages a balance between embracing innovation and maintaining a streamlined, effective martech stack that aligns with both immediate and long-term business goals.
At Logitech, the marketing operations team faces the intricate challenge of serving various internal and external stakeholders across different groups and brands. Debbie highlights that the key to managing these challenges lies in recognizing the team's central role as a service arm within the organization. With each business group having unique demands, it becomes crucial to maintain a bird's-eye view of all requests, ensuring no group is unaware of the others' needs. Process orientation emerges as a fundamental strategy for the mops team. By adhering to well-defined processes, the team not only safeguards the quality of their work but also empowers themselves to manage and prioritize requests effectively. Debbie stresses the importance of clarity and communication in this dynamic environment. She encourages her team to engage in open dialogues with stakeholders, offering the ability to push back on requests when necessary, provided it's done with clear reasoning and possible alternatives. This approach fosters a culture where markete... | |||
| 17 Apr 2023 | 68: How fast could AI change or replace marketing jobs? | 01:06:37 | |
What’s up JT, good to chat again. When you aren’t podcasting or consulting, what are you reading or listening to these days? Yeah I’ve been BUSY. Bobiverse books, of course but also lots of Mario with my kids – haha, my downtime totally spent on guilty pleasures. Haha yeah you had a head start on Bobiverse but I overlapped you… that’s probably going to change soon for me… I don’t think I’ve announced this on the cast yet but my wife and I are on baby watch, first born arriving at any second now which s why we need to record a few episodes haha I’ve actually been getting back into podcasts lately. Maybe I’ll plug a few of my favorites ahead of our next episodes. I’ve really been digging Making Sense of Martech lately. Juan Mendoza is the guy behind the podcast, he’s a friend of the show and he’s been doubling down on it, pumping out weekly episodes. If you want to go deep on some technical topics, in episode 37 he had the CEO of Hightouch Data on and he debates the merits of reverse ETL and they really unpack CDPs. Check it out. In the non marketing podcast world I’ve been taking a dive into the world of AI. No, not fluffy my top 10 ChatGPT prompts and buy my course type of content, way darker shit, like will marketing be replaced by AI in 10 or 20 years… sooner? My buddy Alex recommended The Ezra Klein Show. The episode is titled Freaked Out? We Really Can Prepare for A.I. On the show he has Kelsey Piper, a senior writer at Vox. She basically spends her time writing and being ahead of the curve covering advanced A.I. In that episode she says something like: “The AI community believes that we are 5-10 years away from systems that can do any job you can do remotely. Anything you can do on your computer.” Recently Goldman Sachs released a report saying AI could replace the equivalent of 300 million jobs. A day later Elon Musk, Andrew Yang, Wozniak and several other tech leaders wrote an open letter urging a pause in AI development, citing profound risks. So I went down a rabbit hole and it really prompted the next 4 episodes
So basically 1. How soon and how significantly will this impact my job 2. How do I keep up with changes? 3. Is it possible to adapt? How can I future-proof myself? 4. How can I start right freaking now?!? Today we’re going to be starting with setting the scene and covering how fast shit is changing right now. Here are some of the topics for this first episode:
Here’s today’s main takeaway: It's not like our jobs are gonna vanish overnight, but the shift is happening faster than many of us realize. AI's no longer just a loosely backed buzzword; it's doing things today that we used to think were impossible. So, as marketers, we've gotta take this tech seriously. Instead of asking if AI's gonna replace our roles in marketing, we should be talking about how quickly it could happen and what it'll look like if it does. A bunch of really smart marketers (and non marketers) out there are saying we need to hit the panic button. They're predicting that in just 5 to 10 years, we'll see a massive change affecting all sorts of remote jobs. Times are wild right now. So, fellow humans of martech, let's keep our eyes on the future and continuously evolve and adapt. JT I don’t want this episode to be fear mongering… I’d actually love to chat with people that are way smarter than us about AI and get both sides of the coin,
I think it's ok to be a bit uncertain or even afraid of what the future may hold with this new technology. As humans, we face an interesting dilemma -- we are capable of using and creating technology that don't fully comprehend ourselves. Our society is built on layers of abstractions -- you don't need to know how water purification or plumbing works to turn on your tap and get a glass o water. My deepest fear is not that we adopt and use these technologies -- it's that we do so without considering the cost. The only thing worse than being afraid is being unprepared. I think marketers can benefit immensely from a boom in AI tech -- that easily could extend to basically any other human discipline. Truth is that we have to deal with the facts on the ground. I think there are a lot of smart people to consider following to get different takes on the potential of impact. We'll load the show notes with links so you can check out our research.
We’re not just waking up to AI for the first time lol we’ve obviously talked a lot about it on the cast and have been playing with AI and automation tools for a while right? ChatGPT is my big one – Really love it as a prompting tool to help me round out topics; I’ve used it for a personal coding project and I’m pretty stoked with what it can produce. But even before GPT, as marketing automation admins, we’ve actually been playing with ML features… maybe not considered AI for everyone but things like:
It’s worth s... | |||
| 25 Mar 2025 | 162: Rich Waldron: How to build and manage AI agents from a single, composable platform without coding | 01:05:57 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rich Waldron, Co-founder and CEO at Tray.ai. Summary: Marketing ops folks stand at a crossroads where iPaaS platforms and AI agents are colliding in crazy ways. Rich pulls back the curtain on what happens when workflows become agent "skills": Imagine your carefully built automations transformed into autonomous assistants that diagnose tech issues, provision applications, and manage complex Salesforce campaigns without manual intervention. Your marketing stack could suddenly act like a "junior admin" on demand, while you focus on strategy. The explosion of AI features has turned martech leaders into "AI referees" juggling competing vendor tools, yet those who master both fundamentals and experimental curiosity become "10X automation heroes" - the first teammates that are called when problems need solving. As Rich explains, career security comes from momentum, not stability. About Rich
iPaaS exploded because enterprise suites were too slow to open up their integration capabilities. CDPs made similar mistakes with rigid architectures, birthing today's composable alternatives. Every software system eventually faces the same primal challenge: intercommunication. Rich recounts how this pattern also repeats throughout computing history with startling consistency. Monolithic ERPs dominated early landscapes, where engineers cobbled together custom connections between internal components. These hand-built bridges crumbled easily, leaving teams scrambling for standardized frameworks that could withstand daily operational stress. As specialized software proliferated around these central systems, integration pressure mounted. "We're still not that far through on adopting the cloud," Rich points out, puncturing the tech bubble many of us live in. While cloud technologies feel omnipresent to industry veterans, countless organizations remain firmly planted on physical servers. This reality created distinct evolutionary phases for iPaaS: On-premise to on-premise connections (the original integration challenge) Each phase demanded fundamentally different architecture. Cloud applications introduced unique payload structures, execution patterns, and API designs that rendered previous integration approaches obsolete. "Every application now has an API," Rich explains, describing how this technical shift triggered organizational transformation. Marketing departments grew increasingly technical, with marketing ops professionals discovering they could craft custom experiences by tapping into these newly accessible APIs. > "iPaaS has to evolve because if your iPaaS was built purely for an era when AI wasn't a consideration and your customers are now suddenly saying, 'We're looking at how we infuse AI in these processes,' the requirements have changed again." You've likely witnessed this evolution in your own organization. Remember when connecting two systems required an IT ticket and weeks of waiting? Now your marketing team builds automations while the sales team creates their own customer journey orchestrations. Technical power diffused across departments, democratizing integration capabilities previously locked behind developer expertise. Today's iPaaS platforms face their greatest evolutionary pressure yet: AI integration. Rich describes how existing processes built on traditional platforms now crumble under AI's weight. Semantic analysis, novel reasoning models, and entirely new integration approaches have rewritten the rules. iPaaS vendors who built for the pre-AI era now race to adapt as customers demand intelligent workflows. The platforms that flourish will embrace AI as a core architectural principle rather than a bolted-on feature. Key takeaway: Evaluate your integration platform based on whether it was (re)designed for today's AI-centric landscape or simply patched to accommodate it. The most effective iPaaS solutions evolve alongside major architectural shifts rather than struggling to catch up after they've occurred.
The AI agent landscape is blurring with contradictions and wild claims and it’s only going to get crazier. While vendors plaster "agent" labels on everything with an algorithm, Rich isn’t worried about definition. The terminology matters far less than what these systems actually do. > "The AI isn't just reasoning over a set of data, but it's actually going and taking action on a user's behalf... I've done the response for you and I've handled the follow up and I've gone and filed this over here, and it's actually carrying out a series of actions based on the reasoning that occurred in the first place." AI agents take autonomous action. They handle support tickets end-to-end. They file documents. They complete multi-step processes without human intervention. They execute rather than suggest. Tray's team experienced genuine goosebump moments when they combined their connector infrastructure with LLM reasoning. You could almost hear the click as puzzle pieces fell into place. Their ten-year vision suddenly materialized before their eyes: Semi-technical staff performing complex cross-organizational tasks This capability triggered an immediate "holy shit" reaction during internal testing. Everything changed in that moment. The strategic implications struck like lightning: adapt or die. Many category leaders fail exactly here, at this precipice of change, clinging to outdated paradigms while disruptive innovation rewrites the rules. The adoption curve is also likely to be shockingly steep. Century-old enterprises with conservative DNA are already running AI workloads in production using Tray. Some skipped entire technological generations, leapfrogging directly into AI implementation. They've dumped their data into databases, layered AI analysis on top, and built reactive systems around the outputs. The comfort level with these technologies has accelerated across industries at a pace that defies conventional adoption timelines. When Tray rebranded from tray.io to tray.ai, they acknowledged that connection alone provides insufficient value in this new world. The platforms that enable autonomous action through AI will dominate the future landscape. The rest will fade into technological obscurity, remembered only as stepping stones. Key takeaway: The future competitive advantage in your martech stack is going to come from AI that acts on your behalf, not just analyzes and recommends. When you implement systems where AI executes complex workflows based on reasoning, you empower your teams to achieve broader impact with fewer technic... | |||
| 29 Aug 2023 | 86: Deanna Ballew: Embracing open source composable martech, AI literacy and qualitative insights | 00:49:25 | |
A Two Decade Journey Through the Whirlwind of Tech When asked about her impressive tenure at Acquia and Widen, spanning nearly 20 years, Deanna offered a wealth of insight. Unlike many professionals in the tech industry who frequently switch roles, Deanna has remained at Widen, continuing with the organization even after its acquisition by Acquia. The secret to her long-term commitment, she explained, is the opportunity for growth and the freedom to evolve without stagnation. In search of what she referred to as the 'Goldilocks' of companies, she found the perfect balance at Widen. The organization was large enough to offer learning opportunities and yet small enough to let her make an impact. This was back in 2004, a time when print was still dominant, smartphones and social media were yet to revolutionize the world, and 'martech' hadn't entered the business vocabulary. Deanna was part of a small software team tasked with the transformation of Widen, a pre-press company established in 1948, into a leading player in the software and martech industry. Deanna has been instrumental in the company's journey to becoming a significant provider of SaaS solutions and a force in martech. The excitement of riding the waves of innovation in marketing technology, she admitted, has been a captivating part of her career. Over the past decade, Deanna's focus has shifted to the human element of martech—exploring how people use these technologies, how behaviors intersect with tech growth, and what software vendors can do to support everyday tasks. This focus on the people-centric side of the rapidly advancing martech world has fuelled her passion in recent years. Takeaway: Deanna’s enduring presence at Acquia and Widen is a testament to her adaptability and eagerness for growth. She has navigated through tech revolutions, transforming Widen from a pre-press company into a significant player in the martech world, all the while maintaining a people-centric focus. Her story underlines the significance of seizing opportunities and staying agile in the ever-transforming tech landscape. Unraveling Martech Acronyms: DAM and DXP When queried about the confusing array of acronyms in the martech space, Deanna readily acknowledged the "alphabet soup". She then proceeded to shed light on two key terms - DAM (Digital Asset Management) and DXP (Digital Experience Platform). Deanna's enthusiasm for DAM was infectious as she described it as a system that allows organizations to create, manage, and distribute thousands, if not millions, of digital assets for their brands, products, and services. DAM is essential to industries ranging from non-profits and higher education to financial services and hospitality. In essence, any sector that needs to manage a slew of digital files benefits from DAM. The aim is to ensure consistency and reinforce brand management. Next, Deanna turned her attention to the concept of DXP, the digital experience platform. At its heart, a DXP is about combining data and content to craft meaningful user experiences. Key tools like Drupal or WordPress, known as content management systems, come into play here. The process involves weaving together images and data to tailor personalized customer journeys. Machine learning is used to further enhance and scale these experiences across various touchpoints. The discussion highlighted the need for organizations to embrace technologies like DAM and DXP to meet the evolving expectations of their audiences, whether it's web-based interactions or exploring potential frontiers like VR, AR, and metaverses. Takeaway: Acronyms like DAM and DXP are more than just letters—they signify critical aspects of modern martech. DAM helps organizations manage an immense amount of digital content, ensuring brand consistency, while DXP amalgamates data and content to create personalized customer experiences. In the realm of martech, understanding and leveraging such tools is the key to delivering effective digital experiences.
When Deanna was asked about the debate between packaged and composable solutions in the martech space, she provided an insightful response. Her viewpoint emphasizes the importance of tailoring solutions to an organization's internal team dynamics and willingness to change. In some cases, Deanna explained, packaged solutions like Acquia's suite of offerings - which includes a content management system (CMS), a hosting platform, a customer data platform (CDP), and a marketing automation platform - might be the best fit. These ready-to-go solutions can provide faster time to value and seamless integration. Yet, Deanna was quick to recognize that not all organizations are poised to change their processes to fit into a pre-bundled solution. For organizations that find it challenging to adjust their processes, Deanna advocated for the flexibility of composable solutions. With these, companies can choose individual point solutions and integrate them into their existing tech stack. This approach allows for customization to suit the unique processes and needs of an organization. It's about making the solutions meet your processes, rather than the other way around. Intriguingly, Deanna highlighted the tension that often exists between IT and marketing teams. She noted how the composable nature of Acquia's offerings helps balance the agility and experimentation desired by marketers with the stability and scalability requirements of IT teams. This balance, Deanna suggests, is essential for successful martech deployment. Takeaway: The debate between packaged and composable solutions in martech is not a one-size-fits-all question. It's about matching the solution to the organization's willingness to change, their unique needs, and the dynamics of their internal teams. A successful martech deployment navigates the delicate balance between the agility of marketers and the stability requirements of IT teams.
When asked about her perspective on the ever-evolving martech trends, Deanna, the SVP of Product at Acquia, embraces both the complexity and the opportunities. This perspective is rooted in her experience with the first martech landscape map by Scott Brinker back in 2011, where only 111 vendors were listed. Now that number has exploded into thousands, driving an invigorating competition. Deanna's viewpoint reflects a healthy attitude towards competition. The fast-paced, diverse landscape ensures that no player, however established, can rest easy. Innovation isn't optional, but essential. If a company, such as Acquia, decides to pause, they risk being left behind. Deanna sees the high-speed evolution in martech as more of an opportunity than a curse. It ensures that companies consistently deliver value to their customers, always striving to stay ahead of the curve. Deanna also touched upon some of the emerging trends in the industry, with a particular emphasis on composability and generative AI. Coming from a software background, Deanna views composability as a new label for the time-tested concept of modularity. This modularity, inherent in Drupal's open CMS, has been embraced by Acquia. While eager to explore trends, Deanna emphasizes the importance of listening to customer pain points. This approach helps her team identify where changes in customer behavior may drive the adoption of new technologies like generative AI. The popularity of AI and machine learning has been simmering for years, but generative AI's advent has sparked a significant culture shift, with tools like ChatGPT becoming mainstream. To stay at the forefront of ... | |||
| 16 May 2023 | 72: Bobby Tichy: AI and the future of Martech, a deep dive from SFMC to Braze | 00:26:09 | |
What’s up folks, today we’re joined by Bobby Tichy, he’s Co-Founder and Chief Solutions Officer at Stitch. Bobby’s a highly respected Martech veteran having spent over a decade working in technical roles for some of the biggest names in martech:
I’d love to start by getting your take on agency vs in-house, pros and cons and maybe get the inside scoop on going from SF to arch-nemesis Marketo a few years ago?
So what problem are we trying to solve? It’s much more about business problems and outcomes than it is technology problems and outcomes. That’s probably the best way to think about it. Or at least the the biggest delineation that I’ve seen over the years, which the consulting side is so much more fun and so much more complex. It has each has its own challenges.
So you went from SFMC to Marketo before going back to a SFMC focused agency but now you’ve left both platforms and at Stitch you guys focus on Segment + Braze. Did you play around with Braze before joining?
These are broad strokes, so they’re not specific or like universal comments. But I think the number one thing that we’ve seen for folks who are using Braze is those teams are typically more innovative and fast moving where they’re relying on marketers to build out campaigns and be in the tool every day and where they they understand. I think the other area of that too is they have the best understanding of their data. So what’s really awesome about Braze is this, this real time or event based architecture but also the the ability to to layer in some of those things. One thing that we always came up against whether it was at Marketo or Salesforce Marketing Cloud was we don’t want to bring in all of our PII into the platform. And so you started to see like Movable Inc does a really good job of this, of being able to combine multiple different data sets and then just put to like push out a piece of content or copy that is personalized. But Movable Inc doesn’t require that PII, It’s just based on these integrations that are happening in real time and with Braze we can do something very similar right where I can call out to my Snowflake instance at the time of an e-mail send and I don’t have to bring that PII into the platform, but I can still populate the PII and the e-mail. So these things that are are really fast-paced and moving.
Implementating Marketo at Tesla
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| 13 Aug 2024 | 132: Ashleigh Johnson: Tales of a Marketing Technologist from Microsoft | 00:45:38 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ashleigh Johnson, Marketing Technologist at Microsoft. Summary: Ashleigh gives us a glimpse into the enterprise world of martech, and it might not be what you’re expecting. She emphasizes embracing the unexpected by seeking diverse roles and rotational programs. Building a personal network within large organizations like Microsoft is crucial for navigating corporate silos. Curiosity and people skills, including shadowing colleagues and effective communication, are paramount. Ashleigh highlights the need for robust documentation and the strategic use of AI for routine tasks to boost productivity. Finally, she advocates for marketers to lead AI deployment, ensuring flexibility and innovation by empowering tool owners to make technology-driven decisions. About Ashleigh
Ashleigh highlights the significance of being open-minded in the marketing industry. She reflects on her early career, noting that she had no idea what martech was when she started. College had prepared her for traditional marketing roles—branding, PR, content management—not martech. She envisioned a straightforward path in these areas but ended up somewhere entirely different. Her entry into martech came by chance, thanks to a rotation program at Trend. This experience unveiled a whole new side of marketing she hadn’t considered. Ashleigh stresses that there’s much more to marketing than what college teaches. She urges young professionals and students to stay open to various roles and experiences. Ashleigh advises against the narrow approach of targeting only specific job types based on college education. She encourages a broader perspective, exploring different facets of marketing, and being receptive to opportunities that might initially seem outside one's defined path. This openness can lead to surprising and rewarding career paths, as it did for her. Her journey exemplifies the benefits of keeping career options open and exploring the full spectrum of the marketing industry. By stepping outside conventional boundaries, one can discover new and exciting opportunities in martech and beyond. Key takeaway: Embrace the unexpected by diversifying your job search beyond traditional roles. Actively seek out rotational programs or internships that expose you to different facets of marketing. This strategy will help you uncover hidden opportunities and potentially lead to a more fulfilling and dynamic career path.
Working at a behemoth like Microsoft offers a unique perspective on martech operations. Ashleigh, who has been with the company for two and a half years, admits that the scale still overwhelms her. Coming from smaller enterprises where she handled marketing operations for the entire company, the shift to Microsoft’s segmented structure has been significant. At her previous companies, Ashleigh was part of small, global marketing ops teams, typically ranging from three to seven people. These teams managed the martech stack across the entire organization. In stark contrast, Microsoft’s martech environment is vast and compartmentalized. Multiple teams handle different aspects, and Ashleigh often finds it challenging to keep track of all the players and their roles. Ashleigh's current role focuses on supporting enterprise cloud products and services, specifically in a pre-sales capacity. There are separate teams for post-sales, gaming, hardware, and other areas, each with their own martech stacks and operations. The sheer size of the company means that even after years, she doesn’t know all the teams or their specific functions. Adjusting to this environment has required a significant mindset shift for Ashleigh. She’s accustomed to having a comprehensive view of martech operations, working closely with marketing and sales, and understanding the big picture. At Microsoft, she’s had to accept a more siloed view, focusing on her specific area and recognizing that she won't have visibility into all parts of the company. It’s a continuous learning process, and embracing this limited scope has been a significant adjustment. Key takeaway: When transitioning to a larger organization, prioritize building a personal network within your company. Regularly schedule coffee chats or brief meetings with colleagues from different teams to understand their roles and how they intersect with yours. This will help you navigate the segmented structure and foster a more collaborative and informed working environment.
Ashleigh values the collaborative culture at Microsoft. One of her favorite aspects is working with diverse teams and individuals. In such a large organization, there’s a role for everything, which means constantly interacting with new colleagues. This variety keeps her projects dynamic and introduces her to smart, creative minds across different domains. When addressing common criticisms of enterprise environments, Ashleigh counters the notion that things move slowly. Contrary to the stereotype, she finds Microsoft’s pace anything but sluggish. There’s always a project in motion, and new initiatives constantly arise. This fast-paced environment ensures that her work remains engaging and ever-evolving. Another positive is the breadth of experience she gains. Unlike the narrow focus some might expect, Ashleigh’s work spans various aspects of martech. Her background in events has expanded to encompass broader martech roles, offering her new perspectives and skills outside her previous specialization. This variety keeps her job interesting and allows her to grow continuously. The enterprise environment at Microsoft provides Ashleigh with both depth and breadth in her career. She appreciates the chance to collaborate with a wide range of professionals and tackle diverse projects, all while maintaining a fast-paced, stimulating work environment. Key takeaway: To maximize your growth in a large organization, actively seek out cross-functional projects that require collaboration with different teams. This approach will not only broaden your skill set but also help you build a diverse professional network, keeping your work dynamic and your career development continuous.
Curiosity has been a cornerstone of Ashleigh's career in martech. She attributes much of her success to her insatiable curiosity and willingness to figure things out on her own. Unlike traditional roles with clear guidelines, martech often lacks a roadmap. This absence of predefined instructions demands a curious mindset, constantly seeking to understand how tools and technologies work. Ashleigh enjoys shadowing senior team members, a practice she values dee... | |||
| 14 May 2024 | 119: Adam Greco: The Future of event-based web analytics and the overlapping landscape of data tools | 00:59:59 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Adam Greco, Field CTO / Product Evangelist at Amplitude. Summary: Adam is a leading voice in digital analytics and he unpacks event-based analytics and how it’s transformed how marketers interact with data. Data tools are complicating the martech landscape with overlapping functionality and confusing terminology so Adam breaks down the nuanced difference between product analytics, customer data infrastructure and ETL. Adam also walks us through how his team combines marketing, product, and experience analytics getting a fuller view that informs smarter, more effective strategies. We also cover the shift to interactive dashboards as well as warehouse native martech and what it means for marketers. Marketers need to work closely with data teams to ensure these new tools are practical without being overwhelmingly complex, allowing them to lead confidently in their industries. About Adam
Adam unpacks the shift towards event-based analytics, a concept that may seem confusing to those accustomed to traditional digital analytics. He explains that back when the internet was simpler and mostly about websites, tracking was straightforward: look at pageviews and sessions and hope for conversions. But as technology evolved—think smartphones and apps—the old methods became less effective. Mobile apps changed the game. Interactions on these platforms are brief and frequent, shifting the focus from long sessions to brief, meaningful interactions, each marked as an event. Adam points out that his company, Amplitude, was at the forefront of adopting this approach, realizing that tracking every tap and swipe gave a clearer picture of user engagement than the traditional methods. As both websites and apps became integral to user experience, the analytics field faced a choice: stick with the old or adapt to the new. The answer was overwhelmingly in favor of event-based analytics. Major players like Google and Adobe redefined sessions as just another event, creating a unified model that could track interactions across platforms, be they digital or physical, like visiting a store or calling customer support. This evolution means marketers can now see a fuller, more dynamic view of how users engage across different platforms. Understanding that a session is a collection of events, rather than a fixed time slot, offers a richer, more nuanced understanding of user behavior. Key takeaway: Embracing event-based analytics allows marketers to capture the full spectrum of customer interactions, offering a granular view that is vital for crafting targeted, effective marketing strategies. This approach not only keeps pace with the evolving tech landscape but also provides the insights needed to enhance customer engagement and satisfaction.
Adam explains the evolving landscape of martech tools, focusing on how they intersect and differ, simplifying a topic that can be quite bewildering for even experienced marketers. Initially, the task for marketers was to employ simple tools provided by companies like Google or Adobe, which handled data collection via embedded codes on websites or apps. These tools offered convenience but at the cost of flexibility and depth in data manipulation. With the advent of more specialized tools, the dynamics changed. Customer Data Infrastructure (CDI) tools like Jitsu, MetaRouter, and Rudderstack focus mainly on collecting first-party data from apps and websites, pushing this information directly into data warehouses. They don’t delve into analytics but excel at gathering clean, structured data. On the other hand, Extract, Transform, Load (ETL) tools such as Airbyte and Fivetran specialize in integrating data from various third-party tools into a central warehouse. They transform the data during this process to ensure it fits well within the existing structures and schemas of a company’s database, enhancing the data’s utility for comprehensive analysis. Customer Data Platforms (CDP) like mParticle and Segment represent a more holistic approach, incorporating features of both CDI and ETL. They not only aggregate and organize data but also enrich it, providing a robust platform that supports marketing automation and personalized customer experiences based on the unified data they help curate. Adam highlights that while CDI, CDP, and ETL tools are vital for data orchestration, they often lack robust analytical capabilities. This is where Product Analytics tools like Amplitude step in. Amplitude starts with some features of CDI but integrates extensive analytics and visualization capabilities, allowing marketers to not only collect and see their data but also to derive meaningful insights and build complex reports directly. Adam also emphasizes the importance of flexibility in Amplitude’s approach to integrating with the broader martech ecosystem. Despite the overlap with features typically found in CDIs, Amplitude continuously expands its capabilities to better meet the needs of its users. Central to its philosophy is maintaining an open system. Unlike some platforms that might restrict interoperability with competitors' tools, Amplitude encourages its users to integrate as they see fit, whether that means using Amplitude in conjunction with other products or relying on it more heavily for certain functions. This openness not only provides users with the flexibility to tailor their data strategies precisely but also offers potential cost savings by allowing them to choose the most effective combination of tools for their specific needs. By listening to customer feedback and adapting its offerings, Amplitude aims to provide the most value, ensuring that clients have the best tools at their disposal, no matter the complexity of their data needs. Key takeaway: Marketers looking to refine their tech stacks should consider how each tool fits into their broader strategy. Integrating platforms like Amplitude that handle multiple functions—from data collection to visualization—can simplify operations and cut costs. This approach not only makes managing marketing technology easier but also ensures that teams can quickly adapt to changes and opportunities in the market, keeping them one step ahead.
When Adam penned his thoughts on the convergence of digital marketing, experience, and product analytics back in 2021, the concept faced skepticism. Fast forward to 2024, and the landscape validates his insights, showing a clear trend toward unified analytics platforms. The separation of marketing, product, and design analytics is becoming obsolete as companies recognize the inefficiencies of siloed data approaches. In his early career at companies like Salesforce,... | |||
| 20 Apr 2021 | 30: Be productive, stay sane and healthy | 00:26:36 | |
Jon and I are both pretty busy dudes. Jon
Phil is
So how do we do it while staying happy and healthy (for the most part). Alright, I want to start by breaking down our weekly schedules by putting everything into 6 priority buckets:
Go through the list of priorities, break them up into 1-2 tasks and block time in my calendar for it. As much as I can, I like to theme my weeks with 1 big thing I want to do. What’s my #1 focus. Key here is not over blocking. Leave some flex in there to move things around as things pop up during the week.
Tuesday and Thursday nights I alternate between a book on Tuesday and on Thursday I learn something, right now learning Segment.js but have plans for SQL and deeper API. Wednesday nights Something we want to try is everyone picking the same recipe, we open Zoom and watch each other chaotically build a recipe and eat together. Sometimes I’ll host a Zoom with friends and we watch a bunch of hockey games over screenshare. Friday nights
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| 26 Mar 2024 | 112: Stephen Stouffer: The dawn of AI Ops and the practical wonders of combining AI tools with iPaaS | 00:49:27 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Stephen Stouffer, VP, Digital Transformation & Innovation at SaaScend. Summary: Stephen shares practical and innovative examples of combining AI tools with iPaaS tools to do things like parsing email auto-responses and subcontracting tech support questions from family members. He’s a fan of starting simple, gradually advancing to more complex solutions, all while maintaining a keen focus on ethical considerations and human interaction. We also cover growth potentials of having a stint in the agency world, is martech really for engineers and the benefits of thinking of emails like billboards on the highway. About Stephen
Stephen's journey into automating tech support for his mom using AI showcases a blend of ingenuity and practicality. Faced with an array of tech-related questions from his mother, from resetting routers to converting recipes into different metric units, he sought a solution that could offer simple, direct answers without the clutter of search engine results. Recognizing the ease with which texting comes to his parents compared to navigating the internet, Stephen ingeniously integrated Twilio with GPT, leveraging Tray.io as the intermediary. This setup allows text messages to transform into queries for OpenAI's API, which then sends back clear, useful responses. The beauty of this system lies in its simplicity and effectiveness. By funneling questions through a familiar medium—text messaging—Stephen's mom can now access a wealth of information at her fingertips. Whether she's looking for new restaurant suggestions after moving to a new area or needs quick answers for her culinary adventures, the AI assistant provides concise, relevant information. This approach not only empowers his mother to find information independently but also maintains their daily communication, highlighting the importance of family connections amidst technological solutions. Key Takeaway: Stephen's inventive use of AI for handling his mother's tech support inquiries demonstrates the transformative potential of integrating simple technologies to solve everyday challenges. This strategy not only streamlines the process of obtaining information but also enriches the user's experience by delivering tailored answers through a preferred communication channel.
Stephen's presentation at Dreamforce was a bold exploration of AI's potential in streamlining email management, a topic ripe with complexities and nuances. Opting for the risky path of live demos, he engaged his audience directly, inviting them to submit various types of emails into an open text field. Utilizing Tray.io as his iPaas tool of choice, these inputs were then processed through OpenAI's API to classify the emails and execute appropriate actions based on their nature—whether setting up follow-up tasks, unsubscribing contacts, or updating records in Salesforce and Pardot. This daring demonstration not only showcased the practical applications of AI in automating mundane tasks but also ignited discussions on data compliance and ethical considerations in AI usage. Stephen's session highlighted the efficiency and adaptability of AI in handling massive volumes of email responses, providing a glimpse into the future of digital communication management. The success of this live demo, buoyed by flawless internet connectivity, underscored the reliability and transformative power of AI in enhancing operational processes within the tech ecosystem. Stephen's process for integrating auto-responses from email clients into GPT is remarkably straightforward. By designating a reply-to address in your automation platform, all auto-responses are directed to a specific inbox. From there you create a forwarding rule for all incoming emails in that inbox to another address provided by Tray.io. This address acts as an endpoint, channeling the email content directly into the iPaas tool for processing. From there you can prompt ChatGPT by bringing in the payload of those individual emails. Despite the simplicity of this setup, Stephen cautions about the volume of data being handled, highlighting the importance of managing the flow to ensure accuracy in parsing and prompt building. This method not only simplifies the initial step of data collection but also underscores the intricacies involved in refining AI to perform nuanced tasks like accurately unsubscribing contacts. Key Takeaway: Stephen's Dreamforce presentation exemplified the innovative use of AI in automating useful tasks that are often left behind because of the manual nature. His live demo reinforced the potential of AI to transform mundane operational tasks into automated, intelligent workflows, setting a precedent for future applications in business and technology.
Stephen's insights into the maturity of the martech market, particularly regarding the integration of AI into marketing operations, highlight a crucial phase of development that many professionals are navigating. His observations, shared after captivating the audience at Dreamforce, shed light on the novelty and potential of AI to revolutionize marketing practices. Stephen emphasizes that we are at the beginning of this journey, with much of the excitement and innovation concentrated in regions like North America, notably ahead of other areas such as Europe and Australia. This disparity showcases the varying pace of technological adoption across the globe, reminding us that advancements like marketing automation, now seen as standard in some parts, are just gaining traction elsewhere. Stephen points out a common misconception within the industry: the belief that AI's application is limited to those with deep technical expertise, such as data engineers. This notion, he argues, often overshadows the simpler, yet profoundly impactful uses of AI that can benefit marketers at all levels. For instance, AI's capability to generate email subject lines or assist in content ideation represents an accessible entry point for professionals seeking to leverage technology to streamline their workflows. The enthusiasm Stephen encountered post-Dreamforce, where attendees expressed astonishment at AI's capabilities, underscores a widespread underestimation of AI's current role and potential in marketing. This reaction suggests a gap between the perceived complexity of AI applications and the practical, immediate benefits they can offer. Stephen's approach to demystifying AI—highlighting straightforward applications and encouraging experimentation with basic tasks—provides a valuable roadmap for professionals looking to embrace AI without feeling overwhelmed. Through his experience, Stephen advocates for starting small with AI, focusing on automating simple tasks that can significantly enhance efficiency and creativity. This strategy not only makes ... | |||
| 02 Jul 2024 | 126: Michael Rumiantsau: AI's role in democratizing data narratives for marketers | 00:50:28 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michael Rumiantsau, Co-Founder and CEO at Narrative BI. Summary: This episode delves into the future of Business Intelligence, highlighting AI's role in democratizing data for marketers, automating insights with LLMs, and the importance of anomaly detection. Michael’s on a mission to make data insights accessible and useful for everyone, not just experts, by leveraging AI to provide tailored, easy-to-understand insights that boost decision-making. The episode also discusses how proprietary data gives companies a competitive edge in the AI market by refining models and creating tailored solutions, while well-structured data sources enhance natural language query tools. Anomaly detection is crucial for quickly identifying issues and uncovering new opportunities, with tools like Narrative BI automating alerts for unusual patterns, reducing the need for constant monitoring, and enabling more strategic decisions. Michael explains how Narrative BI, an augmented analytics platform, not only presents data but also provides context, explains trends, and suggests actionable steps, helping marketers focus on significant changes and improve performance. About Michael
Starting a business varies greatly depending on personal circumstances. Michael explains that while it might be easier for a young, single entrepreneur to take the plunge, it's a different story for someone with a family. Despite these differences, one thing is clear: at some point, you must go all in. Without full commitment, building something substantial is unlikely. Michael highlights the need to have "skin in the game." This means demonstrating serious commitment, which can convince others to support you. Investors, for example, are more likely to back someone who has shown they are fully invested. For Michael, this commitment meant leaving a secure, high-paying job and investing his own money into his venture, Narrative BI. Michael’s story shows the kind of dedication required. He left behind a seven-figure salary to pursue his startup. This kind of personal risk can be a powerful motivator and a strong signal to potential investors and team members. Making the transition from a stable job to a startup isn’t just a career move; it's a significant life decision that requires careful thought and total commitment. Key takeaway: Aspiring founders need to move from part-time dreamers to full-time entrepreneurs. Taking this leap is crucial for success. Without it, the foundation of your startup may remain weak. It’s about believing in your vision enough to put everything on the line.
Michael isn’t on his first entrepreneurial venture. He believes expecting startup employees to match a founder's dedication is unrealistic. Founders often work around the clock due to their significant equity stakes, but employees with smaller shares shouldn't be pressured to do the same. Michael values his employees' time and boundaries. He doesn't track how many hours they work, focusing instead on their contributions. This approach creates a healthier work environment, where employees feel appreciated for their results, not just their hours. He also encourages side hustles. For Michael, these ventures aren't distractions; they're sources of valuable experience that can benefit the company. His small team of eight includes individuals with diverse entrepreneurial backgrounds, with many already engaged in other income-generating activities. Michael sees this diversity as an advantage, bringing fresh ideas and perspectives to the company. This is a refreshing perspective coming from a founder and not shared by everyone. Shopify CEO for example is well known for discouraging side hustles and expects unshared attention from his team. Michael takes pride in his employees' entrepreneurial efforts. If someone leaves to start their own company, he sees it as a success and supports them fully. By fostering an entrepreneurial spirit, he believes his team becomes more innovative and motivated. Key takeaway: Supporting employees' side hustles and respecting their work-life balance can lead to a more innovative and motivated team. Encouraging entrepreneurial efforts within the team benefits both the company and the individuals, fostering a culture of mutual growth.
BI is here to stay. Michael points out that despite its $30 billion market size and growing influence, BI tools are still primarily designed for data specialists. In even the most advanced tech companies, adoption rates hover around 20-25%, leaving a vast majority of knowledge workers without direct access to valuable data insights. Michael sees a significant opportunity in democratizing BI. He believes every knowledge worker should access data insights, regardless of their technical background. This can be achieved through automated or AI-generated insights, making data more accessible to those who make critical business decisions but lack deep data expertise. Discussing dashboards, Michael notes their static nature as a limitation. Traditional dashboards rely on predefined metrics and queries, which can miss the nuances of a constantly evolving business environment. The static approach often results in overlooked insights that could be pivotal. Michael envisions a future where BI tools are dynamic, AI-powered, and user-friendly. This would allow real-time insights tailored to specific roles and individuals, enhancing decision-making processes across all organizational levels. By enabling a broader audience to harness the power of data, the potential impact of BI could be far greater than ever imagined. Key takeaway: The future of BI lies in making data insights accessible and actionable for all employees, not just data experts. Embracing AI-powered, dynamic tools can help businesses stay ahead by providing real-time, personalized insights, fostering a culture of informed decision-making.
Michael acknowledges that while BI tools are a boon for data enthusiasts, their complexity often hinders wider adoption among knowledge workers. Even with advanced natural language query tools, users need to understand database structures, table names, and relationships. This level of data literacy is uncommon among marketers and executives, creating a significant barrier. AI offers a promising solution to this challenge by proactively generating insights. Instead of waiting for users to ask specific questions, AI can analyze data trends and patterns to provide pers... | |||
| 08 Oct 2024 | 140: Jared DeLuca: Appcues’ Director of Ops on integrating demo bookings within your product and using AI to uncover incremental lifts from drip campaigns | 00:58:02 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jared DeLuca, Director of Operations at Appcues. Summary: Jared takes us inside the mad but amazing world of martech at Appcues – the top product adoption SaaS on the planet. We cover his transition from demand gen to ops, how he’s integrated demo bookings within the product using RevenueHero, the difference between ops and revops. We also cover a ton of ground on AI topics for marketers like machine learning lifecycle management, how to QA AI-driven messages and how to leverage AI to uncover incremental lifts in your campaigns. About Jared
Jared’s shift from demand generation to front-end development was a mix of opportunity and curiosity. When his team’s operations lead left, he stepped in naturally. As the demand gen guy who relied heavily on those systems, Jared was the most logical choice. It wasn’t a calculated career move—it was about filling a gap. That’s how things go in startups, where you often find yourself doing a bit of everything. His transition into front-end development had a different spark. Budgets were tight, and they didn’t have the luxury of hiring contractors. With years of HTML and CSS experience under his belt from working on emails and landing pages, Jared figured he could handle some of the coding work. AppCue supported the idea, allowing him to stretch into JavaScript. For small teams, having someone in-house with a broad skill set is invaluable, and Jared was more than willing to step up. What made this shift special was Jared’s personal interest in coding. He enjoyed it. Coding wasn’t just a job; it was something fun to experiment with. One evening, while watching TV, he built a lead-gen magnet prototype in just an hour. It was born from a simple idea pitched by the content team, but Jared’s ability to quickly turn that into a working model showed the kind of spontaneous creativity that startups thrive on. The prototype may soon go live on their website. Jared’s experience highlights the unpredictable nature of roles in smaller companies. You often find yourself taking on responsibilities you never planned for, and those unexpected opportunities can lead to new skills and career growth. For him, it wasn’t about following a clear path—it was about being adaptable and ready to learn. Key takeaway: In a startup, being adaptable and willing to learn new skills can lead to unexpected career opportunities. It's less about having a perfect plan and more about being open to filling gaps when they appear.
When asked if tools like ChatGPT make learning HTML and CSS easier today, Jared didn’t hesitate to agree. He pointed out how much simpler it is for anyone looking to pick up coding now compared to when he started. Back then, you had to figure things out manually, while now, AI tools can assist with the heavy lifting. However, there’s a caveat—knowing what to ask for is still crucial. Jared challenged the idea that AI is replacing developers. Instead, he emphasized that understanding the underlying structure of HTML and CSS is still key. Tools like ChatGPT can help speed up the process, but without knowledge of where to apply that code, the benefits are limited. AI can’t tell you how to structure a website; it can only help fill in the blanks once you know what you need. He highlighted that while AI can handle repetitive keystrokes, the real value comes when you already know what you're aiming for. It’s not about AI replacing junior developers—it’s about leveraging these tools to work more efficiently. If someone understands the basics of coding and web structure, AI can cut down the time it takes to implement those tasks significantly. For Jared, the most significant takeaway is how much time he saves. What used to take him hours can now be done in minutes with AI. The difference is in the efficiency, not the replacement of skill. If you know what you're doing, ChatGPT and similar tools become an incredible resource for improving speed and output, but they don’t replace the need for foundational knowledge. Key takeaway: AI tools can dramatically speed up coding tasks, but the real advantage comes when you already understand the basics of HTML and CSS. It’s not about replacing developers, but about working smarter with the right knowledge and tools.
When asked why developers often seem disinterested in marketing, Jared’s perspective was insightful. In his experience, particularly in software startups, it’s not that developers are “allergic” to marketing; they simply don’t think about it. Their focus is on building and coding—creating the product itself. Marketing, and the role it plays in attracting users, often doesn’t even cross their mind. Jared pointed out that many developers operate with a clear mindset: give them the requirements, and they’ll build exactly what you need. They’re more concerned with functionality than how the product will reach customers. This differs from product teams, who tend to think more about market fit and bridging the gap between building something and getting it to the user. However, Jared has worked with engineers who do think more broadly. In some cases, especially in smaller teams, developers will ask key questions about the user experience and how people will engage with the product. But this tends to fade as companies scale. Jared mentioned his time at Keurig, where engineers were more specialized—focused on delivering exactly what was requested, with little thought to the next steps. In Jared’s view, it’s less about a lack of interest in marketing and more about developers not having the bandwidth or inclination to focus beyond the task at hand. Their job is to build, and for many, thinking about the next phase—how the product reaches customers—isn’t a priority. Key takeaway: Developers in startups aren’t necessarily disinterested in marketing; they’re simply focused on building. For those seeking to bridge the gap between engineering and marketing, fostering collaboration and highlighting the user journey can encourage developers to think beyond their immediate tasks.
Jared emphasized how crucial responsive support is in marketing ops. When discussing his shift to Revenue Hero, he highlighted the frustration many teams face when relying on traditional support teams. He described how long it can take to get a response—sometimes 24 to 48 hours—and how those responses are often unhelpful, requiring even more back-and-forth communication. What made Revenue Hero stand out to Jared was its approach to customer support. The team integrated seamlessly into his company’s Slack workspace, offering real-time access to their expertise. This level of support was a game changer. For Jared, it wasn’t just about the product performing well (which it did), but about the reassurance of knowing that if something went wrong, help was just a Slack message away. One example Jared shared was when a demo request system broke—a critical part of ... | |||
| 27 Apr 2021 | 31: Marketing Artifacts and the website of doom | 00:24:13 | |
Who built this? Why did they build this? What was the purpose of this? Sometimes, marketing can look a lot like archaeology. Unearthing ancient relics, reverse engineering them, and trying to understand how they were used by your ancestors. Like an ape discovering a tool for the first time, you look at them with a mix of bewilderment and awe. I didn’t know we were so advanced back in --- 2011. You’ve discovered a marketing artifact, and the internet is full of them. Form submits that go to legacy email automation systems, blog posts written before the last ice age, and strategies for a trend that went extinct long ago. As marketers, we need to be experts at carefully extracting these artifacts, evaluating their worth, and deciding whether to revitalize them or put them in a museum. Honestly, you’ll encounter this more in your career than you’d probably like, so we’re going to chat about how to work with marketing artifacts
Nothing sucks the wind out of a new job like cleaning up someone else’s mess. It’s easy for the content side to sweep things under the rug. But for tech systems, it’s way harder to clean up. You get this perception that tool X sucks or tool Y sucks. I know you’re deeper in the ops area -- how often do you hear a new CMO or VP start looking to migrate off of marketo or hubspot or whatever?
Martech artifacts are everywhere! The maretch landscape of doom is growing everyday, and each of these vendors can easily be a failed trial. If it’s a free product, then you could be using it forever. One thing that really gets me is how underutilized existing software is before we start asking for budget for the next thing. I was the type of kid who had to finish each portion on my plate before I moved on to the next thing -- I’d eat my broccoli, then my potatoes, then my chicken. In marketing automation especially, you get players like Marketo / HubSpot that have so many features available out of the box. These features sometimes, however, aren’t as powerful as you can get from other tools. I noticed this with web personalization and forms.
Yeah, customer’s hate this -- it’s right up there with online chat that doesn’t connect with a live agent.
You’re giving me PTSD. Enough about marketing automation and let’s talk about the website.
Years ago I ran an experiment where I started updating existing content to see if I could improve traffic and rankings. What I found is that I could consistently move pages from 2nd page and beyond to the first page => this gave something like a 200-400% lift on conversions.
Resist the temptation to clearcut! There are often very valuable plants in that garden.
JT, is there really value in updating and managing all this content? We live in such a transactional society, it’s almost always easier to create new.
I feel like it’s a skillset that you really need to work on. In my own career as a consultant and in-house marketer, I’ve almost always seen or been a part of website migration projects. I think this... | |||
| 23 Apr 2024 | 116: Kevin Hu: How data observability and anomaly detection can enhance MOps | 00:50:36 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Kevin Hu (Hoo), Co-founder and CEO at Metaplane. Summary: Dr. Kevin Hu gives us a masterclass on everything data. Data analysis, data storytelling, data quality, data observability and data anomaly detection. We unpack the power of inquisitive data analysis and a hypothesis-driven approach, emphasizing the importance of balancing data perfection with actually doing the work of activating that data. He highlights data observability and anomaly detection as a key to preempting errors, ensuring data integrity for a seamless user experience. Amid the rise of AI in martech, he champions marketing ops' role in safeguarding data quality, making clear that success hinges on our ability to manage data with precision, creativity, and proactive vigilance. About Kevin
When Kevin shared the profound impact César Hidalgo, his mentor at MIT, had on his journey into the data world, it wasn't just about learning to analyze data; it was about asking the right questions. César put together one of our favorite TED talks ever – Why we should automate politicians with AI agents – this was back in 2018, long before ChatGPT was popular. Hidalgo, recognized not only for AI and ML applications but also developing innovative methods to visualize complex data and making it understandable to a broader audience, was the most important teacher in Kevin’s life. He helped Kevin understand that the bottleneck in data analysis wasn't necessarily a lack of coding skills but a gap in understanding what to ask of the data. This revelation came at a pivotal moment as Kevin navigated his path through grad school, influenced by his sister's work in animal behavior and his own struggles with coding tools like R and MATLAB. Under Hidalgo's guidance, Kevin was introduced to a broader perspective on data analysis. This wasn't just about running numbers through a program; it was about diffusing those numbers with context and meaning. Hidalgo's approach to mentorship, characterized by personalized attention and encouragement to delve into complex ideas, like those presented in Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate," opened up a new world of inquiry for Kevin. It was a world where the questions one asked were as critical as the data one analyzed. This mentorship experience highlights the importance of curiosity and critical thinking in the field of data science. Kevin's reflection on his journey reveals a key insight: mastering coding languages is only one piece of the puzzle. The ability to question, to seek out the stories data tells, and to understand the broader implications of those stories is equally, if not more, important. Kevin's gratitude towards Hidalgo for his investment in students' growth serves as a reminder of the value of mentorship. It’s a testament to the idea that the best mentors don't just teach you how to execute tasks; they inspire you to see beyond the immediate horizon. They challenge you to think deeply about your work and its impact on the world. Key takeaway: For marketers delving into data-informed strategies, Kevin's story is a powerful reminder that beyond the technical skills, the ability to ask compelling, insightful questions of your data can dramatically amplify its value. Focus on nurturing a deep, inquisitive approach to understanding consumer behavior and market trends.
During his career in academia working alongside Olympian-caliber scientists and researchers, Kevin garnered insights that have since influenced his approach to running a startup. The parallels between academia and startups are striking, with both realms embodying a journey of perseverance and unpredictability. This analogy provides a foundational mindset for entrepreneurs who must navigate the uncertain waters of business development with resilience and adaptability. At the heart of Kevin's philosophy is the adoption of a hypothesis-driven approach. This methodology, borrowed from academic research, emphasizes the importance of formulating hypotheses for various aspects of business operations, particularly in marketing strategies. Identifying the ideal customer profile (ICP), crafting compelling messaging, and selecting the optimal channels are seen not as static decisions but as theories to be rigorously tested and iterated upon. This empirical approach allows for a methodical exploration of what resonates best with the target audience, acknowledging that today's successful strategy may need reevaluation tomorrow. Another vital lesson from academia that Kevin emphasizes is the respect for past endeavors. In a startup ecosystem often obsessed with innovation, there's a tendency to overlook the lessons learned from previous attempts in similar ventures. By acknowledging and building upon the efforts of predecessors, Kevin advocates for a more informed and grounded approach to innovation. This perspective encourages entrepreneurs to consider the historical context of their ideas and strategies, potentially saving time and resources by learning from past mistakes rather than repeating them. Key takeaway: Embracing a hypothesis-driven mindset should be familiar grounds for marketers. Challenge your team to identify and test hypotheses around underexplored or seemingly less significant customer segments. This could involve hypothesizing the effectiveness of personalized content for a niche within your broader audience that has been overlooked, measuring engagement against broader campaigns.
For startups grappling with survival, the luxury of perfect data is often out of reach. Kevin points out that data quality should be tailored to the specific needs of the business. For instance, data utilized for quarterly board meetings does not necessitate the same level of freshness as data driving daily customer interactions. This pragmatic approach underscores the importance of defining data quality standards based on the frequency and criticality of business decisions. At the heart of Kevin's argument is the concept that as businesses scale, the stakes of data accuracy and timeliness escalate. He highlights scenarios where real-time data becomes crucial, such as B2B SaaS companies engaging with potential leads or e-commerce platforms optimizing their customer journey. In these cases, even slight inaccuracies or delays can result in missed revenue opportunities or diminished customer trust. This discourse on data quality transcends the binary choice between perfect data and rapid action. Instead, Kevin advoc... | |||
| 01 Apr 2025 | 163: Danielle Balestra: Building AI and Martech Stacks Inside Regulated Enterprise is More Rewarding Than Startups | 00:59:10 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Danielle Balestra, Director of Marketing Technology and Operations at Goodwin. Summary: Marketing operations power organizational change through deep system understanding. Danielle reveals how strategic operators transform corporate landscapes by mapping intricate human networks, turning complex bureaucracies into adaptive innovation platforms. Her approach reconstructs marketing from a tactical function into a critical strategic driver, where understanding organizational dynamics becomes the primary method of creating meaningful business transformation. About Danielle
Marketing ops in enterprise moves like molasses compared to SaaS startups—and Danielle has the battle scars to prove it. After years in consulting, she deliberately jumped into the enterprise arena, not despite its notorious sluggishness but because of the massive internal transformation potential. "The reason I pivoted into large enterprise was because it's an opportunity to sell innovation internally, but also get paid," she explains with refreshing candor. You face a completely different animal when implementing martech in a 4,000+ employee organization. Your job morphs into part-marketer, part-internal lobbyist: Finding the hungry change-makers scattered across departments The satisfaction comes from moving mountains that seemed immovable. Tech startups already expect and fund scaling technologies—the path glows with green lights. Enterprise paths bristle with red tape and "we've always done it this way" roadblocks. Danielle's enterprise journey reads like a marketing ops fairytale gone rogue. "My three enterprises was like Goldilocks," she laughs. Memorial Sloan Kettering, despite its prestigious reputation, crawled at a pace that drove her to distraction. "It took us six months to put a preference center up. This is way too slow." The bed was too soft. CIT offered more speed but lacked investment for sustained growth. The bed was too hard. Then came Goodwin, where the legal industry's appetite for evolution aligned with her expertise. Fresh leadership—a new COO and chairman committed to "running business with data and intelligence"—created fertile ground for her marketing ops vision. This bed was just right. The transformation feels electric precisely because legal firms typically move at glacial speeds. You'll recognize the right enterprise fit when leadership actively hungers for data-driven decisions rather than merely talking about them. Words matter less than resource allocation and willingness to disrupt comfortable patterns. Key takeaway: Map internal influence networks, document wins with leadership-valued metrics, and secure early budget control. Build a six-month roadmap of small victories that advance your larger vision without triggering organizational resistance. Treat internal stakeholders as customers by selling efficiency improvements as competitive advantages.
Enterprise martech gets a bad rap for being outdated and slow. "Legacy enterprise tools-ish," as the skeptics call platforms like Microsoft Dynamics and Marketo. But this surface-level dismissal misses what actually happens inside regulated industries. Danielle dismantles this misconception with the calm precision of someone who's lived both worlds. "Being in a healthcare organization, being at a bank, do you really want to put your data out there for anyone to grab?" It's a practical question that trendy martech vendors conveniently sidestep. > "The banks and even some financial institution clients have had data lakes and orchestration systems in place for over two decades. This is old hat for them and just new for the tech world." Regulated industries pioneered data intelligence while today's "innovative" startups were still in diapers. "The banks and even some financial institution clients have had data lakes and orchestration systems in place for over two decades," Danielle points out with a hint of amusement. "This is old hat for them and just new for the tech world." The irony stings: what passes for cutting-edge today has been standard operating procedure in banking since before most SaaS companies existed. These industries understood customer behavior, engagement patterns, and product usage long before "customer journey orchestration" became a conference buzzword. The real enterprise challenge isn't technological capability—it's processing time. When vendor onboarding takes nine months and you need a solution in six, you return to established platforms with comprehensive portfolios. Danielle's experience with an event scanner technology purchase illustrates this perfectly: "We started the process in 2019 and ended it in mid-2020. It took us almost a year to process that." During that implementation period, the vendor was acquired by another company! You face two options: Wait patiently through lengthy security reviews for innovative tools Microsoft Dynamics gets unfairly maligned in this "latest and greatest" obsession. Danielle's first experience with the platform revealed unexpected advantages: "Working with an organization that still programs and builds from their own code is pretty awesome." With native integrations, consistent data across systems, and direct connections to BI reporting through Fabric, Dynamics eliminates the integration headaches that consume marketing operations teams. No more asking, "Why is this in Salesforce but not in Marketo?" The data lives in one cohesive environment. Key takeaway: Master enterprise martech by: (1) Ruthlessly audit system integration points, recognizing each connection as a data vulnerability and maintenance challenge. (2) Distinguish between product limitations and implementation failures by testing workflows across deployments. (3) Create a security-first evaluation matrix scoring tools on compliance, data isolation, and authentication before considering features. Transform security constraints into competitive advantages that protect data and career.
Enterprise martech builds differently—forget your perfect-world stack exercises. While workshop participants happily connect hypothetical Salesforce instances to Outreach in frictionless diagrams, real enterprise teams face vendor mandates and security roadblocks that crush agility. "You can't really just connect to this," as the stark reality goes. Danielle brings refreshing clarity to this enterprise constraint, flipping perceived limitations into p... | |||
| 20 Aug 2024 | 133: Simon Heaton: Buffer’s Director of Growth Marketing on agile sprints, holdout testing and why a CRM or GA4 isn't in their tech stack | 01:04:03 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Heaton, Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer. Summary: Simon helps us explore Buffer's martech journey, highlighting their shift from traditional tools to a product-led approach driven by data and server-side analytics. We unpack their use of Customer.io for automation and hold out testing, Redash for data insights, and their agile sprint model that fosters continuous innovation. Discover how Buffer's small team thrives with efficient, data-driven strategies. About Simon
Buffer’s marketing strategy is unique. They don’t use a traditional CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. Simon explains that Buffer is a product-led company without a dedicated sales team. This means they don't need typical CRM functionalities like lead routing and scoring. Instead, Buffer relies heavily on data and product analytics to drive their marketing efforts. The core of Buffer’s operations is their data warehouse, with Segment acting as their Customer Data Platform (CDP). This setup allows Buffer to integrate various tools and centralize crucial information. Mixpanel, their product analytics tool, is pivotal in this system. It gathers both product usage and marketing data, providing a comprehensive view of user interactions. Simon highlights the importance of server-side tracking and integrating data from diverse sources such as AdWords, Customer.io, and Pendo. This integration helps Buffer understand the user lifecycle and measure the impact of marketing efforts beyond basic website metrics. Tools like Customer.io are also essential for Buffer. It manages most user communications, making it a critical component of their stack. The combination of Mixpanel, Customer.io, and other integrated tools ensures that Buffer can seamlessly track and analyze user behavior. Key takeaway: Not all B2B companies need a CRM or a sales team. A product-led approach, using robust data and product analytics tools, can effectively drive your marketing efforts and provide comprehensive insights into user behavior.
Simon loves working in a smaller team like Buffer, where he can get hands-on with their tools daily. He highlights how Buffer uses Customer.io for their marketing automation, a tool he's familiar with from his previous experience at Shopify. Unlike Shopify, which eventually switched to Salesforce Marketing Cloud for more enterprise-level needs, Buffer continues to thrive with Customer.io. Buffer relies on Customer.io to manage email marketing, push notifications for mobile apps, and various communication programs. Simon appreciates how the tool handles both marketing and transactional communications, offering a unified view of user interactions. This integration ensures consistency in messages, whether they're marketing emails or product notifications. Simon praises Customer.io's user-friendly interface, especially the journey mapping functionality and the WYSIWYG editor, which make it accessible for non-technical team members. Despite its ease of use, the platform also boasts deep technical capabilities, allowing for extensive customization through HTML and API integrations. This flexibility has been crucial for Buffer's needs. The integration with Segment, Buffer's Customer Data Platform (CDP), is particularly valuable. Simon emphasizes that having all data in Segment and seamlessly integrating it with Customer.io enables precise data handling. This setup ensures accurate and timely data flow, essential for personalized and effective marketing automation workflows. Key takeaway: Even as a small team, you can effectively manage complex marketing automation needs by choosing user-friendly tools like Customer.io that offer both simplicity and deep customization. This approach allows your non-technical team members to contribute meaningfully while ensuring your technical needs are met, enhancing overall efficiency and personalization in your communications.
Experimentation is a cornerstone of Buffer’s approach, and Simon is particularly enthusiastic about the capabilities provided by Customer.io. He explains that the platform's holdout testing functionality is essential for validating new programs and comparing campaign performance. Unlike some tools, Customer.io counts a delivery for the holdout group, simplifying the tracking process over time. The integration with Segment and Mixpanel is a game-changer for Buffer. This setup allows them to surface Customer.io data in Mixpanel, creating unique reports and dashboards to support their experiments. Tracking differences in behavior between groups becomes straightforward, thanks to the detailed delivery events logged for both test and holdout groups. This level of detail ensures that Buffer can effectively measure the impact of their campaigns. Simon also highlights the ease of A/B testing within Customer.io. Whether at the message level or within workflows, the platform’s randomization logic allows for extensive testing. Buffer can run tests on content, sequencing, and other variables, ensuring they continually optimize their marketing efforts. The ability to branch workflows and test different variants simultaneously is particularly valuable, enabling ongoing experimentation. Key takeaway: Leverage holdout testing and detailed event tracking within your marketing automation tools to gain deeper insights into your campaign effectiveness. This approach allows you to validate new programs, compare performance, and optimize your strategies based on precise, data-driven insights.
Simon praises Customer.io's QA draft mode, a feature he finds invaluable for Buffer’s marketing automation. This functionality allows the team to build complex workflows, trigger off specific data points, and test the entire process in a production environment without actually sending emails. It’s a unique capability that Simon has not found in other tools, making it a standout feature of Customer.io. Simon highlights how QA draft mode lets them see real users qualifying for different branches of the workflow while emails remain in draft. This means they can verify that users are correctly segmented and the emails look as intended, all without prematurely sending any messages. This testing phase is crucial for catching errors that might not be evident during initial previews. Buffer has used this feature for several initiatives, such as new onboarding iterations and product notifications. Given the high frequency and volume of these emails, ensuring everything works perfectly before going live is essential. Simon appreciates that once the testing phase is complete, it only takes a click to start sending the validated emails to users. This capability saves time and reduces the risk of errors in live campaigns. It allows Buffer to maintain high st... | |||
| 16 Mar 2021 | 25: Naomi Liu: How to ace your first marketing job | 00:33:05 | |
Naomi is Director, Global Marketing Operations at EFI, a 3,000+ person tech company in the printing industry. She’s based in Vancouver but she’s been working remotely long before it was cool. She has 12+ years of experience leading high-performing global B2B demand generation teams. Before EFI she ran Marketing Ops at Sophos a cybersecurity enterprise company. Naomi is also one of the founding members of “MO-Pros”, the biggest Slack community for marketing Ops pros and recently launched a platform/site. She’s been interviewed by prominent podcasts for her efforts spearheading a large scale enterprise migration to Marketo. David Lewis, the godfather of marketing ops podcasts says that Naomi is in his top 10 marketing ops people he’s ever worked with. Noami dives into the 3 things that stand out in most marketing operations profesionals:
- technical chops - cultural fit
Take home assignments are not super common for entry level roles, you can get a ton from how someone answers a question. Naomi values curiosity, looking for data opinions. How do you test that in an interview, what attributes shine? The attribute that allows you to suceed is you have to be curious and always ask why. You have to be willing to break things down and rebuild it better fast and stronger. Open ended questions get interesting conversations. Let candidates explain problem solving. Look for condidates that demonstrate personal bias recognition. What's it like being a Director level MOPs at an enterprise company? How can people who want to stay in the IC path develop a long term career growth? Here are key elements of Naomi's onboarding strategy:
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| 26 Nov 2024 | 147: Nataly Kelly: Making global feel local through the power of marketing localization | 01:00:37 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Nataly Kelly, CMO at Zappi. Summary: Global expansion is a wild process that connects brands to the unique vibe of each market, it’s not just creating a website or translating content. Every market brings its own needs, from how audiences navigate sites to what resonates visually and emotionally. Moving into international territories means showing up prepared, with a localization strategy that’s flexible and has a ton of local insight. Marketing Ops and RevOps both play a key role in localization as a strategic partner, organizing data and decision-making to fuel growth across departments. About Nataly
Nataly decided on LinkedIn for her newsletter with one primary goal: reaching more people, fast. In marketing, there's always talk of “owning your audience,” but for Nataly, the built-in reach LinkedIn offers outweighed the usual risks. Sure, LinkedIn could shift its algorithm or start favoring video, but Nataly isn’t fazed. She believes adaptability is more valuable than control. “If LinkedIn ever moves entirely to video, I might reconsider,” she says. “But for now, it’s a writer’s platform, and I’m a writer.” What really sold her, though, is LinkedIn’s “triple play” effect. Each time she publishes a newsletter, her audience doesn’t just see it once—they get three reminders. The content appears in their feed, triggers a platform notification, and even lands in their email inbox. This multi-touchpoint delivery isn’t just convenient; it significantly boosts her visibility. In a crowded digital space, those three nudges are powerful. And the best part? It doesn’t take any extra work on her end. For Nataly, this setup is gold: “If I can reach my audience in three different ways without doing three times the work, I’m in.” On top of that, LinkedIn’s algorithm has started indexing her posts for keywords, so they pop up in search results long after she hits “publish.” Nataly likes this longevity. She’s seen her posts gather momentum over time, which reassures her that LinkedIn isn’t likely to abandon text-based content anytime soon. This layered exposure works in her favor, especially since she’s already built a solid following on LinkedIn. Her audience is naturally expanding, without any additional ad spend or email list management. This approach ties back to a guiding principle Nataly picked up at HubSpot: follow the growth. When a channel shows traction, commit fully and ride the momentum. LinkedIn’s growth trajectory fits perfectly with her goals, allowing her to spend her time effectively—engaging with followers, creating relevant content, and letting the platform do the heavy lifting. “I see LinkedIn growing, and I’m here for the ride,” she says. While email newsletters and other platforms might come into play in the future, right now, LinkedIn is her sweet spot. It’s a low-maintenance option that lets her connect with her community directly, on the platform where she’s already active. She’s writing for the sake of sharing knowledge, and LinkedIn offers a direct, hassle-free way to reach a broad audience without splitting her focus across multiple channels. Key takeaway: For marketers aiming to maximize reach, LinkedIn’s multi-touchpoint setup and organic audience growth make it an ideal platform. When traction is the goal, LinkedIn’s notification, email, and feed distribution offer valuable, low-effort exposure—perfect for those who want to focus on content, not channel management.
Nataly makes a clear distinction between "going global" and "going local," a distinction that goes beyond simply putting content online for everyone to see. Launching a website, or even setting up a LinkedIn profile, can technically connect a person to a global audience. But creating an intentional, local connection demands a specific approach, one that carefully considers language, cultural context, and user experience. For Nataly, globalization isn’t just about reaching people across borders—it’s about meeting those audiences where they are, with language and content that resonate. Her insights stem from years of experience, including her work at HubSpot, where she developed a practical framework to explain these concepts to teams across the company. She found that simplifying these ideas into one-word definitions helped cut through the confusion. For example, “internationalization” is about adapting the technical side, like making code accessible to different languages and regions. This step ensures the foundational structure can support localized content, but it’s just the beginning. Translation, Nataly explains, isn’t about directly swapping words. True translation involves adapting the message itself. For one audience, a particular phrase might evoke excitement; for another, it might fall flat or even offend. Nataly emphasizes that effective translation reaches beyond literal words to convey a message that feels native to each audience, maintaining intent, tone, and cultural relevance. Localization goes further, adapting the entire user experience for specific markets. It's not just about making text comprehensible but ensuring every interaction—from navigation to design—feels intuitive for users in diverse regions. For instance, a website optimized for American users may assume all visitors speak English, but this model doesn’t apply universally. In countries like Canada, India, or across the EU, multi-language realities complicate navigation. This level of adaptation requires deep cultural and technical knowledge to avoid common pitfalls and create a seamless experience. Globalization, however, is the ultimate adaptation, demanding a complete rethinking of the framework itself. Nataly notes that one of the biggest challenges is getting teams to shift from a single-market mindset to a truly global perspective. A platform initially designed for one language or culture may struggle when stretched to fit a multilingual or multicultural user base. Globalization requires a build-it-right-from-the-start approach, anticipating diverse user needs and ensuring the platform can expand without limitations. Key takeaway: Successful globalization is about more than just reaching an international audience; it requires intentionally adapting every layer—from code to experience—to create content that resonates locally while remaining accessible globally.
When HubSpot considered expanding internationally, it wasn’t about leaping into new markets; it was about waiting until the timing and resources aligned. Nataly recalls that CEO Brian Halligan was deliberate, even drafting a Harvard Business Review piece outlining Hu... | |||
| 17 Dec 2024 | 150: Welcoming Darrell Alfonso as a co-host, celebrating baby milestones and the top 2 predictions for martech by 2030 | 00:34:40 | |
What’s up everyone, today is our last episode of the year and if you paid attention to the intro, I’m excited to officially welcome Darrell Alfonso as the newest co-host of the podcast! Summary: The Humans of Martech enters an exciting new chapter with Darrell Alfonso joining as co-host, bringing fresh energy and insights to the show. As a long-time listener and new dad, Darrell offers relatable stories of juggling work, family, and community while sharing bold predictions like the shift to warehouse-native architectures in martech, which promise to streamline data operations for enterprises. With AI poised to handle executional tasks, Darrell emphasizes the evolving role of marketers as strategic thinkers guiding AI with emotional intelligence and ethical oversight. As the podcast heads into 2025, it remains committed to delivering actionable insights, thought-provoking predictions, and a fresh perspective for the martech community. Welcoming a New Co-Host and Celebrating Baby Milestones Darrell’s journey to becoming a co-host on the podcast came full circle, blending mentorship, passion, and personal milestones. He shared how one of his mentees suggested the idea, sparking an opportunity he immediately embraced. As an early listener of the show, Darrell highlighted his admiration for its unfiltered and geeky deep dives, calling it his favorite podcast—a sentiment that fueled his excitement for the road ahead. On a personal note, Darrell and his wife recently welcomed their baby boy, just eight weeks ago. Parenthood, he admitted, has been a whirlwind of sleepless nights and steep learning curves. As ambitious and organized as he and his wife are, they’ve quickly discovered that babies don’t operate on predictable timelines. Moments of progress—like better sleep—often take a step back as developmental leaps shake up routines. While the lack of rest is taxing, Darrell’s outlook reflects a blend of exhaustion and gratitude. Balancing professional life with a newborn is no small feat. Darrell recounted a whirlwind day of delivering a keynote, driving home, and immediately diving into baby duties. He joked about the unpredictability of these moments while acknowledging the personal growth they inspire. Virtual support groups like Maven have also helped him navigate the early stages of parenthood, offering both guidance and camaraderie with other new parents. For all the challenges that come with parenthood, I always like to emphasize gratitude. Reflecting on the struggles my family faced in our journey to parenthood (and how many other couples have it much harder), we need to emphasize the importance of cherishing even the tough parts. The joy and fulfillment of finally welcoming our child outweigh the sleepless nights and ever-changing routines. Key takeaway: Parenthood is a mix of exhaustion, growth, and gratitude. Embracing the ups and downs, leaning on community support, and focusing on the meaningful moments can help navigate this transformative stage of life.
Okay… enough baby talk haha. Darrell predicts that in 5 years, most marketing tools will no longer rely on databases. At first glance, this concept might seem shocking—after all, marketing automation platforms, CRMs, and CDPs are fundamentally built on relational databases. But Darrell suggests this assumption is rooted in tradition, not necessity, and outlines a shift toward a warehouse-native or zero-copy data architecture that could redefine how tools operate. To illustrate this point, he draws a simple analogy. Consider apps like Yelp or Google Places. When you share a restaurant with a friend, the app doesn’t create a duplicate of your contacts database; it accesses the data on-demand. Contrast this with the typical marketing stack, where almost every tool replicates contact data, creating endless updates, sync errors, and manual fixes. Darrell estimates that more than 80% of a team’s data work revolves around ensuring consistency across these copied datasets—a cumbersome and inefficient process. The inefficiency extends beyond wasted effort. Darrell shares examples of bi-directional sync loops that occur when two systems endlessly update each other, introducing a frustrating complexity to even the simplest workflows. These scenarios highlight how deeply ingrained data copying is within current systems and how much time is spent combating its limitations. Shifting to a zero-copy model, Darrell argues, could eliminate these inefficiencies. A warehouse-native approach would enable tools to work directly from a centralized data warehouse, bypassing the need for constant synchronization. This not only streamlines operations but also reduces the risk of errors. It’s a radical departure from the status quo but one he believes is inevitable as teams demand greater agility and accuracy in their tools. Key takeaway: The future of marketing tools lies in a warehouse-native approach, eliminating the inefficiencies of duplicated data. By moving beyond traditional databases, teams can reduce errors, streamline processes, and focus their energy on strategic initiatives rather than endless data synchronization.
I think the shift toward a warehouse-native approach for marketing tools feels inevitable, but its timeline remains uncertain. While this approach won’t entirely replace APIs, it will change how tools interact. Instead of passing data back and forth through integrations, tools will increasingly work directly from a centralized data warehouse, eliminating inefficiencies tied to duplication and synchronization. This prediction, often misunderstood as futuristic, is already shaping current tools. Vendors like MessageGears and Castle.io are leading the charge, offering solutions that bypass traditional database structures and avoid charging based on record counts. Despite their innovations, the challenge lies in industry adoption. Many teams are accustomed to older models, making this transition as much about change management as it is about technology. A critical insight from my past research and conversations with experts on the podcast highlights the importance of internal readiness. Tools can only perform as well as the data they rely on. High-quality, structured data is the foundation for warehouse-native success. Teams must focus on improving internal processes now, rather than waiting for the perfect tool to arrive. This means investing in data hygiene, organization, and strategy to prepare for the opportunities that a warehouse-native architecture will bring. However, the path forward isn’t without challenges. Many companies are still immature in their data strategies, making widespread adoption a longer process than anticipated. Whether this shift takes five years or more, the direction is clear: vendors and teams must align their operations with the possibilities of a warehouse-first world. Key takeaway: Warehouse-native tools represent a significant step forward in reducing inefficiencies and modernizing operations. Teams can prepare for this shift by prioritizing high-quality, well-structured data. The strength of these tools lies in how they interact with clean, organized data, making internal readiness the best first step for embracing this future.
Darrell explains that the value of warehouse-native tools becomes clear especially when dealing with large volumes of data. For small and mid-sized companies, the classic setup—a CRM, marketing automation platform, and a few connected tools—works perfectly fine. He notes that for organizations with 500 employees or fewer, traditional data architectures remain suff... | |||
| 10 Nov 2020 | 07: Brian Leonard: Be friends with engineering with open source Martech | 00:37:01 | |
You reached out to us to come on and talk about the world of open source martech and other than knowing that Mautic was an OS automation tool, I didn’t really know much else about the space. So I’ve gotten down some rabbit holes prepping for this episode so pumped to dive in with you today. Why don’t we start with the big differences between martech and open source martech. I know that normal software does not include the source code while open source does and modifications and customizations are encouraged, but what does that mean in a martech context? Brian: You have the ability to control how your customer data is handled and where it is stored. We’ve seen this lead to people taking advantage of more data in their marketing efforts. So then, you can see the code. You can control the data. This leads to trust. Only give the external tools what you want to share. Privacy and compliance get easier. We are talking with lots of medical companies, for example. JT: Brian: Because there are so many tools to integrate with, open source will also help us build up those connections. We will actively engage with the more popular ones, but it’s exciting to see others interested in contributing connections to the long tail of tools. Finally, there is cost. These SaaS solutions tend to be quite expensive and the incentive structure doesn’t line up between the company and the SaaS tool. For example, with Segment you send it a lot of events and more or less get charged per event. Then you pair back what you send. But then, later it turns out that you needed that. Doing all of this and owning that data is great for not only for privacy, flexibility, but also for cost. Phil: The most successful open source projects tend to be developer oriented—developers building tools for other developers, but in this case, the end user is often a marketer. I’m guessing you disagree? Brian: It would certainly seem so. When you want to integrate with Marketo, it’s the engineers that do that. I’ve talked with companies with millions of users that have been paying for Braze for a year and haven’t automated anything. I’ve met marketers that come in as CMO and demand tool X because they like it. A few quarters later, it’s more like “I just want to send a cart abandonment email! VPE, whatever you want to use is fine.” I think there is a lot lost when we think of marketers and engineers as separate things and not the organization as a whole. The right thing to do is engage with the engineers that power your marketing tech stack. And meet them where they are. Open source helps with that. If we can get the engineers excited about setting up the right architecture in an open way, then it will be easier to get more data later to existing and new tools. JT: Do you see an evolution of open source tools in the automation space? Brian:
There’s a similar trend in the engineering world, especially on data teams. Data teams are growing and getting their own budgets. They are getting their own set of specialized tools. One example is Fivetran. That will store everything from Hubspot in your data warehouse. The missing piece, as we see it, is to make that actionable in the best tools for use cases in an efficient way.
The problem still isn’t fixed though. If you’re using 14 martech tools, chances are several aren’t Adobe products. What’s the solution? Brian: I’m focused on building out a community around this tool. We won’t live or by whether the code works. That’s not a problem. The main thing is to make sure we get in front of the people that would benefit from it. We need to get the word out so that when there is this need, Grouparoo is the obvious solution - both for now (easy to get going) and later through self-serve and lots of integrations. To do that we’re doing podcasts, blogging, talking with people that are interested in using it, and building out the team. JT: Brian: We’ve talked to others and they saw something similar. So we made Grouparoo to sync data from your product database or data warehouse to the tools you use like Salesforce or Zendesk. But we also made it open source and targeted at engineers to get it installed and data flowing. And then we added in ways for those non-engineers to help themselves to the data they need to be successful. This help to solve the organizational problem through empowerment hat kind of autonomy for, say, a marketing operations team. Phil: Brran: What it will do is create a profile for each of our users, starting with their user_id or email or something like that. Then you can keep building out that profile from that or other sources until you have a centralized profile of who that person is with many properties. With those properties, you can do segmentation. We can create dynamic groups of users based on their property values. For example, “High Value Bay Area” customers or “About to Churn” customers. These will always stay updated automatically with the real data. Now we know these properties and group membership about each user. We can sync this data to destinations like Marketo, Salesforce, Hubspot, Zendesk, etc. You choose what you want to sync and it happens. And it keeps happening as the data changes. | |||
| 28 Jan 2025 | 154: Confessions of Product Marketing Misfits Who Actually Know GTM and Translate Marketing Buzzwords for Breakfast | 01:01:09 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with the lads from We're not marketers. Summary: When did everyone on LinkedIn suddenly become a GTM expert? The misfits from ‘We're Not Marketers’ dive into this chaos, explaining why Go-to-Market strategy has become the most misused term in marketing. They share product marketing stories about rigid product launches, cross-functional chaos, and small test groups. They open up about their love and admiration for marketing operations folks, similar cross functional translators between tech and marketing and how martech can support message testing. We explore the debate of who should have final word on messaging, PMMs or the channel SMEs. Join us for the laughs, stick around for the love between PMMs and martech. About the 3 Misfits
The concept of go-to-market (GTM) strategy has entered peak buzzword territory in recent years. What was once a product marketing-specific term focused on launching new products or features has been hijacked by nearly every department under the sun. These days, everyone from sales and marketing ops to customer success is suddenly a "GTM expert" on LinkedIn. The term has become so diluted that it's starting to lose its meaning entirely. The transformation of GTM into a catch-all phrase stems largely from corporate politics and self-preservation. Teams across organizations are scrambling to attach themselves to GTM initiatives, fearing that being left out might signal their irrelevance. As Zach points out, there's an underlying anxiety that not being involved in GTM somehow makes a team dispensable, leading to a kind of organizational FOMO that has stretched the term beyond recognition. The reality is that successful GTM execution has always required coordinated effort across multiple teams. Product marketing traditionally orchestrates these initiatives, but they can't execute alone. It takes sales for implementation, product teams for development, and marketing for awareness. The problem isn't collaboration; it's the current trend of every team claiming to be the primary GTM driver, creating confusion about who actually owns the strategy. Eric makes a crucial distinction between "going to market" and "go-to-market strategy" that cuts through some of the noise. While the strategy might come from product marketing or revenue leadership, the execution involves multiple teams working together. The challenge is maintaining clear ownership of the strategy while preventing it from becoming another meaningless corporate buzzword that everyone claims expertise in. Key takeaway: Organizations need to stop the free-for-all claiming of GTM expertise and return to clearly defined roles within the GTM process. Success depends on having centralized strategic ownership while enabling individual teams to excel in their specific GTM responsibilities, not turning every department into self-proclaimed GTM experts.
Picture a chill Broadway production: everyone from lighting to sound plays a crucial role, but someone needs to direct the show. Product Marketing's role in GTM execution presents a fascinating operational challenge. While multiple teams claim ownership over GTM initiatives, the real question isn't about territorial control but about orchestrating complex product launches effectively. The operational reality of GTM involves intricate coordination across specialized teams. Marketing and sales ops teams manage the technical infrastructure, configuring everything from CRM workflows to marketing automation. Lifecycle marketing teams often gatekeep new feature and product notification announcements and balance that with existing messages. Product marketing develops the strategy and messaging, while sales teams handle direct customer engagement. Each group brings essential expertise to the table, making territorial claims over "GTM Ops" not just unnecessary but counterproductive. Gab's makes a really good point that Product Marketing Managers excel at running small-scale experiments, gathering feedback, and iteratively refining go-to-market approaches. This methodology allows teams to validate strategies before full-scale deployment, reducing risk and improving outcomes. It's not about owning GTM ops; it's about facilitating successful product launches through methodical testing and collaboration. You should view GTM operations as a collaborative framework rather than a power structure. PMMs serve as strategic conductors, coordinating efforts across teams while respecting each group's expertise. When campaigns underperform, the root cause typically traces back to poor coordination or unclear direction, not technical execution. Success requires letting each team excel in their domain while maintaining a unified strategic vision. Key takeaway: Focus on establishing clear operational frameworks where Product Marketing Managers guide strategy and testing, while specialized ops teams manage technical implementation. Success comes from collaboration and respect for expertise, not from claiming ownership over the entire GTM process.
There’s often a natural tension between PMMs who think every feature deserves a big email to everyone in the database and the martech or marketing ops team who has an existing roadmap and existing comms in place. New GTM initiatives don’t get to market on certain channels without the SME team converting words into code and automation. This creates a complex decision making process that often requires somewhat lame but important evaluation of business impact and strategic alignment. Strategic prioritization requires product marketers to approach each situation with an analytical mindset focused on identifying the most pressing business needs. As Eric explains, the process resembles assessing multiple issues requiring attention but having limited resources to address them all simultaneously. The key becomes determining which initiative will deliver the most significant impact toward established organizational goals and objectives. The reality of product marketing involves making difficult trade-offs between seemingly equally important initiatives. While new product launches naturally generate excitement and momentum, they must be weighed against the potential impact of operational improvements that are already on the martech roadmap like enhanced product analytics or refined lead scoring mechanisms. These behind the scenes projects often create foundational improvements that enable better execution of future go to market activities. At the end of the day, most product launches have flexible timing - what's critical is identifying the few relea... | |||
| 22 Dec 2020 | 13: Lifecycle: A Martech Saga part 2: Don’t overthink lifecycle | 00:23:42 | |
You want to keep your project neatly scoped and deliver this project on time. Give a skinny MVP and build upon it rather than starting with a complex model that no one will ever use. We've seen these types of projects be it scoring or lifecycle go into dark rabbit holes and never emerge. You build a 5 step process, but somewhere in the depths of the definition of a picklist value in step 1.15 has erupted this debate between sales and product……… Let's preface the value of project management for these types of projects, and even talk about why a lot of marketers don’t really work on these skills enough. Project management is key to getting lifecycle off the ground. How do you organize projects to ensure they don’t go down the rabbit hole? I used to think that anybody could manage projects and it wasn’t a great skill to specialize in. And then I discovered how bad I was at it. I’ve gotten pretty hardcore about projects, particularly when I’m working as a consultant. I like a 5 stage model based on Discovery, Design, Build, Deploy, and Review. Each stage has clear deliverables so that we know when to leave that stage. I’m also pretty hardcore on timelines. I’d rather we hit a timeline and reduce scope than expand timelines to keep scope. One thing I’ve seen ops people obsess about a bit too much is these micro stages in between stages. Your main stages are Lead to MQL but along that path a lead might get confirmed and engaged. How many micro stages is too many? At the end of the day it’s about conversion rates and you don’t want to muddy your table with too many percentages. Lifecycle really allows for measurement of conversion points. Question: JT, I know you’ve worked in Marketo and HubSpot. Marketo gives you unlimited freedom, but HubSpot’s default lifecycle stage is fixed. What model do you like better? Yeah, I’ve used Marketo for 7 years before I started working HubSpot. At first, I was like, of eff this noise with HubSpot. But I’m a little more lenient - HubSpot forces you to simplify and focus on really key stages. Going from MQL to SQL is a big change - one that can trigger insights if you’ve got your analytics tuned properly. Also, no one is making you use HubSpot’s properties - you can totally spin up your own. I think as a mental exercise, it’s better to lean more toward the HubSpot model than completely reinventing the wheel. This is the type of trivial details that bogs down the project. You want to customize things, but you don’t overcomplicate things. We talk about the importance of alignment in this endeavour and something I’ve wrestled with a lot has been the best vehicle to communicate to my team what is happening along the lifecycle. The scoring, the micro stages, the touch points, the segments, the emails the in app messages. Like as much of that story as possible. How do you prevent this type of scope creep that’s bound to happen as everyone starts to unpack things? I think it’s so important to use a visualization tool like a flowchart -- LucidChart, Mural, or whatever -- to show your lifecycle. People are resistant to complexity when you start to chart things out for them. No one wants a complex process but we often arrive at complex solutions before we’re trying to compromise. By using a flow chart, you start to grind away at the concerns folks have that this stage isn’t represented or whatever. It also allows you to show that there’s a lot that goes into each stage. Like an MQL stage that depends on scoring also requires building a scoring program. The concept of an MVP is so important here. It gives us unrivaled permission to push something that isn’t 100% what we want. It’s a forcing function that gets something out the door. It’s like conversion rate testing -- everyone just leaves you alone as soon as you say, “oh, I’m testing this.” You do need two things before this magic trick grows old: 1) you need to follow up with future deliverables; 2) you need to show data. For lifecycle, it’s getting an initial report into your stakeholders hands. This isn’t a PhD dissertation - it’s something you need to do and deploy.
Doon't forget to check out part 1 in the last episode. If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com. -- | |||
| 30 Apr 2024 | 117: Julz James: Automation inception, teaching martech and unraveling intent data | 00:56:51 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Julz James, Senior Marketing Ops Manager at 6sense and Adjunct Professor at St. Edwards University. Summary: Jul is a marketing ops leader and a martech Professor who's rewriting the rulebook on how to navigate the martech galaxy. She walks us through automation inception, like a dream within a dream, and how she’s leveraged an iPaaS tool to automate her automations. She also unravels intent data and how her team has moved beyond lead scoring to adopt account scoring. Sprinkle in her freelance learnings, and you've got a recipe for someone who's not just working in marketing ops but thriving, bringing fresh insights and strategies to the classroom. This episode is a nice reminder that with a bit of curiosity, a dash of adaptability, and a love for teaching, the galaxy of martech tools isn't just approachable—it's yours to automate. About Julz
Imagine walking into a marketing class and instead of cracking open a dusty textbook that smells like the '80s, you're handed a sandbox loaded with today's leading marketing software. This isn't a scene from a futuristic movie; it's what Julz is bringing to the table in her marketing courses. Gone are the days of learning marketing theories that feel like a DVD. Julz has swapped them for lessons on the tools that marketers actually use in their jobs today. Julz loves teaching not for the sake of it but for the lightbulb moments she sees in her students when they connect the dots between class material and their day jobs in marketing. She draws from her own reservoir of experiences, sharing how she navigates the marketing world with tools like Marketo and Salesforce, making her classes a treasure trove of real-life wisdom. Her approach is refreshingly practical. Remember learning about the four P's and Porter’s Five Forces? Julz believes those concepts are as relevant to today's marketing as a pager is to personal communication. Instead, she's all about diving into the digital tools that shape modern marketing strategies, shifting the focus from memorizing models to mastering martech. Creating course content is no walk in the park, especially when the galaxy of martech tools changes faster than you can hit refresh. But Julz is on top of it, crafting her materials from a blend of up-to-the-minute blogs, community discussions, and the latest ebooks. It’s about making sure her students aren't just keeping pace but are ahead of the curve, ready to apply what they've learned in real-time scenarios. Key takeaway: If you're in marketing and looking to make your mark, take a page out of Julz's playbook. Forget the dry theories that gather dust on a shelf. It's all about rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty with the tech that's shaping our world right now. Being quick on your feet, always hungry to learn something new, and getting cozy with the latest martech? That's the secret sauce for not just making it but also having fun.
Ever think you need to be a coding guru to rock at marketing tech? Julz has some news for you: that's not the case. Picture this: you're more like a tech-savvy wizard, weaving different digital tools together, making them do exactly what marketing needs them to do. And guess what? You don't need to write lines of code to pull it off. Julz puts it simply – her gig in marketing operations is kind of like being an IT whiz but all jazzed up for marketing. You get systems to play nice with each other, not by coding from scratch but by knowing just enough to make smart tweaks here and there. It's like knowing how to change a tire without being a mechanic. Sure, dipping your toes into HTML or JavaScript is helpful, especially when you need to adjust something small on a website or in an email. But the real game? It’s all about seeing the big picture, understanding how different platforms and tools fit into the marketing puzzle. Drawing from her own adventures, Julz shares how her journey through engineering and tinkering with gadgets wasn’t about the math or the mechanics but about solving puzzles and being curious. Whether it’s figuring out why a campaign isn’t performing or integrating a new tool into the tech stack, it’s this curiosity and problem-solving drive that counts. Here’s the kicker: the world of marketing tech is becoming more user-friendly by the day. Tools that used to require a developer to set up can now be managed with a few clicks and drags. This shift doesn’t mean technical skills aren’t valuable; it just means the focus is shifting towards strategy and understanding how to connect the dots between different technologies to create a seamless marketing engine. Key takeaway: Jumping into marketing tech doesn’t mean you need to bury yourself in code. It’s all about understanding the flow between different tools and technologies and using that knowledge to craft marketing strategies that hit the mark. So, if you're curious, ready to tackle problems, and can think on your feet, you’re already well on your way to making a big splash in martech, no coding required.
When Julz landed at 6sense, she walked into a whole new playbook for marketing ops. Gone were the days of obsessing over who's scoring what in leads. Here, it was all about tuning into accounts showing us buying signals, loud and clear. It took her a hot minute — okay, six months — to really get why they weren't sweating over lead scores. Ditching lead scoring felt like saying goodbye to an old friend, but it opened her eyes to a smarter way to connect with potential buyers. Think of it this way: It's not about waiting for someone to wave a flag saying, "Hey, I downloaded your ebook!" It's about catching those signals that someone's already scoping you out, ready to chat about what you do. They call these signals from their AI buddy at 6sense, the 6QAs. It's like having a secret decoder ring that shows them who's already thinking about buying without them having to say a word. But here’s the wild part: Once you spot these ready-to-buy accounts, how do you know who to talk to? That's where things get really interesting. They dove into their win stories and figured out who's usually in on the buying decision. Not by names, but by their roles. Are they in ops? Sales? Marketing? This wasn’t just a wild guess; it’s about knowing the committee that’s going to nod yes or no to what you offer. Their sales conversations shifted dramatically. Instead of chasing down every single lead, they started having real talks with the right folks in these companies, all thanks to a mix of their own tools and a hefty dose of strategy. They’re not just throwing darts... | |||
| 06 Aug 2024 | 131: Siobhan Solberg: A guide to ethical marketing with data minimization and privacy strategies | 00:53:57 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Siobhan Solberg, data privacy consultant and advisor. Summary: Siobhan takes on a behind-the-scenes look at the hidden mechanics of data privacy, ethical marketing practices, and effective data management. Marketers often overlook the importance of data privacy, but the increase in data breaches shows that people do care about their data. To address this, marketers should experience tools from the customer’s perspective, implement regular data reviews, and foster collaboration between marketing and compliance teams. By breaking down the user journey into distinct phases, they can attribute value more effectively while minimizing data collection. Focusing on key metrics and regularly auditing for dark patterns will enhance user experience without deception. Prioritizing ethical practices and transparency builds trust and leads to more informed decisions and stronger customer relationships. About Siobhan
Siobhan dives straight into the issue of privacy and its varying levels of importance across different regions. She highlights a stark contrast between the United States and the European Union regarding privacy regulations and cultural attitudes. In the US, the adoption of stringent privacy measures lags significantly, partly due to cultural differences and the absence of comprehensive regulations. This has allowed some companies to exploit these gaps by selling data products that would be deemed illegal in many other parts of the world. When asked about the prevalence of tools that exploit privacy laws and whether people genuinely care about their personal data being resold, Siobhan points out an interesting dichotomy. She references studies, particularly from the Netherlands, showing that while many people claim to care about privacy, their actions often tell a different story. There is a significant gap between expressing concern for privacy and taking concrete steps to protect it. Siobhan believes that at a deeper level, everyone does care about their privacy. She mentions the common justification of having "nothing to hide" as a coping mechanism for the lack of control individuals feel over their personal data. This helplessness leads many to adopt a nonchalant attitude towards privacy. However, as incidents of data misuse and the ramifications of lost privacy become more apparent, even those previously indifferent are beginning to take notice. In the European Union, the implementation of strict privacy regulations has fostered a culture of awareness and proactive measures. This early adoption has forced companies and individuals to prioritize privacy. Conversely, in the US, the conversation is only now gaining momentum, driven by emerging state regulations and the increasing misuse of personal data through advanced technologies like AI. This growing awareness is slowly shifting the cultural landscape towards a more privacy-conscious mindset. Key takeaway: Challenge the notion that people don't care about privacy. Actively take steps to protect your data and demand transparency from companies, as the growing awareness and incidents of data misuse show that everyone values their privacy more than they might admit.
Siobhan gets straight to the heart of ethical marketing. Marketers often face the challenge of using tools that skirt privacy laws. The advice she offers is simple: put yourself in the customer's shoes. She believes this empathetic approach is crucial. It’s a lesson we teach kids about bullying—how would you feel if it happened to you? Marketers should apply the same principle to their practices. When asked about using questionable tools, Siobhan emphasizes the need to consider personal feelings. How would you feel if your email was shared without consent? Or if your personal information was used to cold email you? Most people wouldn’t appreciate it. Marketers need to step back and think about the human impact of their actions. Siobhan points out a fascinating contradiction: many marketers use ad blockers themselves. They don’t want to see ads, yet they’re creating them for others. This highlights a disconnect. By putting themselves in the recipient’s shoes, marketers can make more ethical decisions. This approach doesn’t just make legal sense—it’s about making the right choice morally. Cultural differences also play a role. Siobhan recalls a trip to Korea, where CCTV cameras are ubiquitous. What’s normal there might feel invasive elsewhere. Marketers must consider these cultural nuances. By understanding the context, they can make choices that respect privacy across different regions. The goal is to balance legality and ethics, making marketing more humane. Key takeaway: Evaluate your marketing tools by experiencing them as a customer first. Before deploying any tool, use it on yourself to understand the privacy implications and emotional impact. This practice helps you make more ethical and customer-friendly decisions.
Marketers often face the challenge of balancing necessary data tracking with personalization without crossing into creepy territory. Siobhan addresses this by acknowledging the delicate nature of data collection. Marketers need data to do their jobs effectively, but they must avoid overstepping boundaries. She recalls her time in measurement and technical marketing, describing it as a playground where data was plentiful, and the possibilities were endless. However, she emphasizes that what was once fun and innovative can now be seen as invasive. When asked about maintaining this balance, Siobhan suggests that marketers must be mindful of consent. If a user willingly shares their data and understands the implications, marketers should feel free to use it. However, it's crucial to ensure that the user is genuinely aware of what they are agreeing to. The key is transparency and clear communication about data usage. Siobhan also highlights the importance of being selective with data. Instead of collecting everything just in case, marketers should focus on the data they will actually use. This approach not only respects user privacy but also makes data management more efficient. Aggregated data can provide valuable insights without compromising individual privacy. Finally, Siobhan acknowledges that balancing ethical considerations with business needs is not easy. Marketers must navigate regulations and user expectations while striving to achieve their goals. The challenge lies in finding creative solutions that respect privacy and deliver personalized experience... | |||
| 05 Nov 2024 | 144: Steven Aldrich: Identify the martech you really need with a bottom-up analysis | 01:05:51 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Steven Aldrich, Co-CEO and Co-Founder at Ragnarok NYC. Summary: Like the aftermath of Ragnarök according to Norse mythology, the martech world is emerging stronger, more focused, and ripe with potential. Rather than being overwhelmed by the chaos, marketers should use this time to rethink how to evaluate technology choices through the lens of business value. Prioritize platforms that drive real-world impact and avoid getting lured by features that blaze brightly for a moment, only to be swallowed by the tide of irrelevance. About Steven
When asked about the future of martech, Steven immediately highlighted the ongoing consolidation in the industry. He pointed to acquisitions like Twilio snapping up Segment and Salesforce expanding its Customer Data Platform (CDP) offerings as clear signals. According to Steven, these moves indicate that we’re in the midst of a reshuffling phase—one that will shape how martech platforms are built and used over the next decade. However, it’s not just about merging and acquisitions. Steven sees the next wave of growth stemming from generative AI. This technology, while still in its infancy for many organizations, will soon be as fundamental as marketing automation tools were a decade ago. Platforms are experimenting with Gen AI features like automated content creation, but they’re still scratching the surface. “Right now, a marketer isn’t likely to sit down and have their AI tool write an entire creative brief,” Steven noted. “But once the tech reaches a level where it’s drafting briefs and campaign strategies, it’ll fundamentally change what marketers do day-to-day.” He also predicts that the next few years will separate the genuine innovators from the rest. Startups focusing on AI-powered automation and advanced integrations will emerge as key players. Those that fail to embrace this trend will struggle to maintain relevance. Steven pointed to companies like Castle.io as an example—a newer entrant that has managed to make a name for itself by rethinking traditional automation and going all-in on a warehouse-first approach. Looking ahead, Steven envisions a future where marketers become more like strategic curators rather than operators. Instead of creating every campaign element manually, marketers will outline goals and high-level structures, and let the tools figure out the rest. “Think of a platform where you set your conversion goals, outline your audience, and the tool builds the journey for you,” he explained. Some companies are testing these capabilities internally, but we’re still far from a world where it’s the norm. To reach that stage, platforms need to overcome significant technical challenges and gain marketer trust. Ultimately, Steven believes that by the ten-year mark, the martech industry will look entirely different. The focus will shift away from basic integrations and automation to more complex AI-driven orchestration. Platforms will evolve into decision-making engines, allowing marketers to focus on strategy, creativity, and innovation, leaving the grunt work to the machines. Key takeaway: The martech industry is undergoing a consolidation phase as it readies itself for the next wave of innovation: generative AI. Startups that embrace AI-driven automation will emerge stronger, while legacy platforms must integrate these new capabilities or risk becoming obsolete. In the next decade, marketers will transition from hands-on campaign execution to strategic oversight, as tools handle more of the complex work autonomously.
When it comes to AI and automation in martech, there’s a spectrum of opinions. On one end, some marketers insist that only a human can truly understand and engage their audience. On the other end, there’s a growing camp eager to hand over the repetitive tasks to machines and focus on strategy. Steven pointed out that the real value lies in finding a balance between the two extremes, especially for industries with strict compliance requirements like FinTech and health tech. Steven used abandoned cart programs as a foundational example of automation’s role in marketing. Not long ago, these campaigns were inconsistent and cumbersome. Companies like Klaviyo and Shopify stepped in, making abandoned cart emails table stakes for eCommerce. Now, if you abandon your cart, you can almost predict when you’ll receive that follow-up email offering a discount or reminder. “It’s just expected,” Steven explained. He believes this kind of automated functionality has become the baseline for what customers and marketers alike view as the norm. But not every industry can afford to automate at that level. With sectors like finance or healthcare, there’s a need for humans to review and validate messages for compliance. “A legal person is at the end of every review,” Steven said. “It’s frustrating and time-consuming, but the cost of sending the wrong message at the wrong time is just too high.” He sees these industries gradually adopting AI where they can—incremental optimization, message testing—but keeping a human in the loop for quality assurance. The evolution of martech, in Steven’s view, will be about advancing beyond these early stages. He predicts that the future will bring a seamless integration where humans set high-level goals, and AI takes care of execution. The role of the marketer shifts from managing individual campaigns to curating experiences and setting strategic parameters. Some platforms are already testing these capabilities, but they’re far from ready for mainstream adoption. “Imagine a future where marketers simply set their audience, goals, and content, and the tool builds the entire journey for them,” Steven envisioned. This approach would redefine what it means to be a marketing operator, giving professionals more time to think strategically rather than tactically. Ultimately, Steven sees the evolution of martech as an interplay between speed and quality. Some companies will succeed by automating faster, launching multiple initiatives, and iterating based on outcomes. Others will opt for a more deliberate approach, spending more time crafting the perfect message. “There isn’t one clear winner,” Steven concluded. “It’s about choosing the right tool for the job and understanding what’s at stake when the human element is minimized.” Key takeaway: Martech’s future lies in balancing automation with human oversight. While some industries can embrace full-scale automation, others need humans in the loop to maintain compliance and quality. Marketers must choose tools that fit their strategic goals—whether that’s rapid iteration or precision crafting.
When asked about the role of data science in marketing operations, Steven was quick to point out the di... | |||
| 29 Dec 2020 | 14: Lifecycle: A Martech Saga part 3: A simple formula for a basic lifecycle | 00:19:11 | |
Okay, you’ve got everyone to agree on a flow chart; you look like a wizard for building it all out, now the easy part, right? Is it the easy part? It should be the easy part but what I’ve often seen is that folks deploying lifecycle are doing it for the first time; often they are unsupported except some high level guides from vendors. Once you get it down, it can be highly formulaic. As a marketer, you’re kind of in between your data team/revops/IT/bizops and sales, your end users. I see the role bridging the gap between was possible on the tech side and balancing what the end user wants, not always sales, sometimes marketing. But it can be stressful managing these projects. Some companies have massive programs that are triggered off of lifecycle stage changes. So what’s the formula? First, you need strong stage definitions. Hand-in-hand with this is knowing what constitutes a transition. I think the transition part of lifecycle is often where people get hung up. Mechanism for transition needs to be a data signal of some sort. Moving from Marketing side of the fence to Sales side needs a clear hand off. 3 typical mechanisms for transitioning records are:
Lifecycle Stage = Roadmap One of the big value points of deploying a solid lifecycle is reporting. What are you doing during set up to make sure your reporting is top-notch post deployment?
In terms of a technical problem, it’s a solved problem. You can mix and match components, and tailor things to your needs. The real challenge will always be getting buy-in:
If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com. -- | |||
| 10 Aug 2021 | 46: Danica Bateman: A day in the life of a Marketing Automation Manager | 00:28:09 | |
She’s a product of Dalhousie University where she studied Commerce with a major in Marketing Management and completed 3 Coop work terms: first with Excel HR, Syntax strategic and finally Canada Post. Those internships landed her a marketing strategist position at Versature, now net2phone Canada, a local cloud business phone service provider. She’s spent almost 3 years there and has been through a big acquisition. She’ll probably agree that in her time there one of her biggest projects was a big re-branding to net2phone. Danica was promoted last year to Marketing Automation manager where she holds the keys to Salesforce Pardot, one of the biggest marketing automation platforms on the market. She’s certified by SEMRush, Hubspot and Google and she’s also a lights-out brilliant copywriter. Danica, thanks for logging out of pardot for a bit and chatting with us! Here are the questions we asked Danica: Marketers like to make fun of formal business degrees because of how far removed they are from the practical world? What are things that can be self taught that were useful in your first role that you didn’t learn in your degree? What are things you are super thankful you picked up? Walk us through a day in the life, what’s your typical schedule look like? What are some of your favorite projects so far? What advice do you have for marketers looking to transition into marketing automation? How have you invested in your personal development? What do you wish you had known before starting a career in marketing? You joined your company in an entry level role and last year you were promoted to MA manager. Walk us through things you think helped you get promoted and gain trust among your peers? We always end by asking our guests what ti-s they have for maintaining a healthy and balanced life?
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| 17 Nov 2020 | 08: Why your job is better than getting eaten by lions | 00:21:13 | |
It’s a funny visualization but I find it always grounds me in what matters: why am I at work, what is really important to me, and why being happy is more important to us than anything else. It’s easy to let work get to you and invade your happy space; I’m going to share my strategies for staying happy wherever I work.
Disconnect all work tools from my phone. I’m unreachable unless you text or phone. How do you develop this balance? Having a healthy and disciplined routine and schedule. My Monday’s are no meeting days and have several focus periods, team meetings are on Tuesdays and I try to schedule other meetings then. I walk my dog at the end of each work day. It’s my queue and my reset button. I have an office upstairs with a work laptop that stays up there. When my work hour is done I leave that room and leave the laptop there as well. All my work for the podcast or hobbies is using a personal laptop. Letting Go How do you practice letting go? Being able to let go. Give less fucks. Don't over think things. Good work is important. Perfection will haunt you. It's okay to be invested in your work and care deeply about it. But it's healthy to try to not being emotionally attached to work. Similar to your lion analogy, something that grounds me in times of stress is a quote by Stanley Kubrick. “Whenever you have a dreadful day, take a moment to consider how small we are as humans in this galaxy. In the grand scale of it all, that bad day is virtually meaningless.” Part of this mental state is the product of almost a decade of personal growth and hard work. It’s a gift to not worry about finding employment. So patience is key here. This won’t be instant. Investing in your career over your jobFind what you love about your career and invest in thatYour job is just a job; it could change; your employer may lay you off tomorrow and despite all the fucks you give, they’ll continue on without youYour career will continue to grow; besides your job will benefit from investing in your career. How do you invest in your career? Building a network. It used to be going to events, speaking at meetups. Now it's more virtual groups, paid memberships and private Slack communities. But it's so important to reach out to other humans and make connections. Your goal is to help progress as many people so that some of them can help you in turn. Being Candid Why is being candid so important? Eggs in more than one basket Quit shitty jobs Alex shoutout, Shopify inspiration story. Hated construction industry. Quit, learned to code, applied and failed a few times, kept trying and getting better, now he works there. Never seen someone’s job satisfaction rate go up that high. | |||
| 16 Jan 2024 | 102: Revealing the secret prompts and process behind our AI images | 00:56:47 | |
What’s up folks. As we close in on episode 100 and the end of this season, one episode that’s been on the list for a while now is revealing how we do our AI images. Most of the comments we get on our social posts aren’t “wow amazing content, love the CDP topics, I learned so much about email deliverability…” It’s usually “that cover art is SO cool, what’s the prompt that you use, what tool are you using for these amazing images?” So without further ado, let’s go behind the curtain and walk you through the process that we use to repurpose our audio only podcasts into long form blog posts packed with eye popping AI images. Of note, this is a highly visual episode so check out the blog post here for all the images: https://humansofmartech.com/2023/11/21/98-revealing-the-secret-prompts-and-process-behind-our-ai-images/ Here’s today’s main takeaway: Agenda for the episode:
JT: Alright so Phil, we’ve been using Otter.ai to transcribe every episode after you’ve edited them. What’s the first step to converting that long not so great raw transcript into the polished blog posts we have on the site today? PG: Yeah so step number 1 involves our trusty friend ChatGPT. Here’s the prompt I start with: I’ll provide podcast transcripts with [guest name], and I want you to convert each Q&A into a blog passage. Third-person only. No fluff or weird words. Remove 'ums' and 'likes.' Each passage gets an H2 title and ends with a key takeaway. Ready for the first question and answer? So I go through our transcript, I copy paste the question we asked and I copy paste the answer from our guest. Here’s an example from our episode with Scott Brinker. Naturally, the output isn’t always perfect. You’re asking ChatGPT to turn your raw transcript filled with ‘ummms’ and ‘likes’ and probably has several mistranscribed words. So it’s always worth going through it and looking for issues. JT: Yeah that’s a super cool use case for ChatGPT, the output is usually pretty solid and it doesn’t always have that generic GPT signature or style to it because it starts with something vs just asking it to generate something from scratch. So do you move to generating images for each section now? PG: Not yet haha. I actually use ChatGPT to help me write a summary of the episode and suggest variations of titles as well. I start with getting a list of all the takeaways from each section and paste them all into Chat GPT and ask it to come up with a summary based on those takeaways. JT: Very cool… okay now are we ready to move on to Midjourney haha? Getting Started in Midjourney First step here is creating a Discord account if you don’t have one already. Then you’ll want to create your own server so you can generate images in your own private channels. Then you join the Midjourney Beta on their site, that’ll get you invited to the Midjourney Discord server. You can check out the #getting-started channel in there to get some startup instructions. You can start seeing what others are building in any of the #newbie channels. But I prefer building in private so you can hit the ‘Show Member List’, click on the Midjourney bot and then add it to the server you just created. JT: So it’s free up to certain point right? PG: Actually since the Pope Francis in a puffer jacket earlier this year blew up their servers and they now require paid plans for all subscribers. Well worth the $10 to start playing around though. You just need to hit the /subscribe command in Discord and you’ll get a link to sign up. JT: One thing I find fascinating playing with DALL-E myself is that a lot of your illustrations and images have a crazy likeness to our guests. Are you gonna share the secret sauce behind that? PG: Yeah this is a bit of trial and error and I can drop some screenshots in the blog post version of this episode but it all starts with another Discord bot. It’s called Picsi.AI by InsightFaceSwap Bot. It’s a highly realistic portrait creation tool that you can use for free with their Discord invitation, or head over to Patreon to subscribe and access more features and higher usage limits. The creators are InsightFace.ai, an open source Python library that offers 2D and 3D face analysis. It efficiently brings together top-notch face recognition, detection, and alignment algorithms. It's designed for performance, both in training and deployment phases. Both research institutes and businesses stand to benefit from using InsightFace. Picking your style JT: Another thing that lots of people comment on that I think is awesome about your art is how consistent it is. You can just tell that’s Humans of Martech. That’s something I’ve struggled with playing around in DALL-E rarely can I come up with two things using the same prompt that feel the same. How do you accomplish that? PG: Yeah picking your style in Midjourney is one of the most important steps. At first you want to experiment and play around with a variation of style prompts and once you have something you like. Save it. There’s probably thousands of styling permutations and combinations that can give you a pretty unique style. You can reference specific styles like cyberpunk, 8-bit, cubism, pop art. You can reference styles from video games like Zelda, GTA or Firewatch. You can also reference famous artists like Picasso, Davinci, Warhol, Kubrick and Tolkien. You can stick to real life and even reference specific cameras and lenses. I went through a bunch of my favorite ones in my virtual talk at MOPSapaloza all using the same prompt, be sure to check out the blog post for these images. Adding images to your blog post JT: So are we comfortable having you reveal the prompt? PG: Yeah I mean I dropped it at MOPSapaloza and on the Martech Podcast. But folks can also take one of our images and using the /Describe command Midjourney can spit out a prompt that’s probably close to what I use. I’ve settled on 3 recurring keywords in my prompt:
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| 02 Mar 2021 | 23: Don Draper style storytelling in your presentations #topmartechprospects | 00:19:55 | |
In this series we profile a recent marketing grad or a current student and answer some of their most pressing questions about the world of martech and how to be happy in your future marketing career. Sonya Gankina, listener and recent University of Ottawa graduate joins the show as our fourth and final #topmartechprospect. Sonya's question for us: Do you think there is still a place for Don Draper-style verbal presentations in the 2021 remote marketing world? I'm mildly ashamed to adminit I've watched all 92 Mad Men episodes at least twice. This is my favorite scene out of all the episodes. The Kodak carousel is the perfect example of how to tell a compelling story. Your average marketer would've described the new Kodak product as a NEW revolutionary slide projector. You can take a TON of pictures and put them into slides and you can share them with a room of people. But instead, Don took a different approach. "This device is not a spaceship, it’s a time machine. It takes us to a place we ache to go again. It lets us travel around and around and back home again, a place we know we are loved." The full clip is worth the watch to get the full emotional punches.
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| 15 Jun 2021 | 38: How skilled do you need to be at marketing reporting? | 00:25:31 | |
Data, data everywhere! If this conjures up the green vertical parade of binary numbers from the Matrix, you’re not alone in being confused. You might be thinking -- I didn’t sign up for this! You didn’t go to school for statistical analysis, so what makes you qualified to produce a marketing report? There’s a lot that makes you qualified to produce reports, even if you don’t feel like an expert. Marketers, particularly in smaller companies, need to learn enough to be dangerous. The main takeaway for this episode: you need to incorporate reporting into your skillset, and it’s not as scary as you think.
The terms are used interchangeably so often that it’s hard to really understand the difference. I think that one way to think about reporting and analytics -- for reporting, you’ll almost always have a clear understanding on what you need to report on. Analytics, you’ll likely be exploring data and not always sure what you’ll find. This is where having a data analyst is useful -- they can look at a data set and tell you if an insight is relevant or meaningful. Performance and exploration. That’s how I see the difference between reporting and analytics. Most startups don’t have time to prioritize either. But in the venture backed startup world, comes a bit more process and a board of directors that ask for monthly/quarterly reporting updates. A really nice sweet spot for learning to become dangerous is a bootstrapped startup that doesn’t have a big data team or requirements for long tedious reporting processes. But regardless of the environment that you’re in, marketers need to learn these skills if for nothing else -- to be able to show their worth, their impact on key metrics. Every marketer needs some reporting skills
Think of analytics as exploring data for unknown insights and buried treasure. We can think of reporting as being accountable for the things you get paid to do. Start there. All my marketing reporting comes back to the question: is what I’m doing making a difference? Reporting on anything else is purely intellectual. So this sounds simple right? Show your impact… Reality is that different marketers will have access to different tools and metrics. But as soon as you start talking about marketing reporting, you quickly get to attribution and then multi touch points and you get lost really easy in all the noise and options of reporting. How do you get to what’s important?
For example, Awareness is the total sum of impressions across advertising and social media and interest is all web sessions. Boom - you’re already starting to get somewhere. This is how nearly every marketer structures their reporting and strategy. Start at the top of the funnel and work your way to revenue. Yeah we had a full series on lifecycle, starting at episode 12, check that out. You don’t need to be able to report on end to end multi attribution from the start. Small steps. Conversion rates from one stage of the funnel to the next is an awesome starting point. Even just focusing on one slice of the funnel. Lifecycle reporting
This is where lifecycle is so key. You need a set of common definitions to even start getting to reporting nirvana. If you and sales don’t agree on what constitutes an MQL, it’s going to be hard to be successful creating good reports. The lifecycle series goes super deep into how to set all this up. Lifecycle reporting is probably one of the most useful ways to report on marketing data. This is definitely high level reporting and should map to your strategy quite nicely. As you progress through each stage, you get a series of conversion rates and baselines. Ultimately lifecycle reporting answers the question how effective you are at turning sessions into contacts and then customers. I love this narrative, that lifecycle is at the heart of growth marketing. It’s so easy to over-complicate reporting. One thing that makes things tricky is where your data lives. Lifecycle reporting sounds straightforward, number of impressions > number of views > number of signups… but often you’ll get a different number of signups from your crm compared to your goal in GA compared to your automation system. Every marketer will work with a tool that provides data
It doesn’t make you an expert -- yet -- and you’ll need to apply those skills to real-world problems to truly master those skills. I learned these tools by always being the guy people came to ask questions.
You don’t need the answer, but you do need the curiosity and discipline to dig deeper. This is one of the reasons I think early marketers should spend time in small startups. You won’t come close to the amount of time or freedom to dig deeper in a big enterprise where tools and data teams are already full fledged. Learning through trying and breaking things right? What makes someone good at reporting?
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| 04 Mar 2025 | 159: Ana Mourão: Privacy-first data literacy and modernizing legacy martech at a global enterprise with data templates and POCs | 00:53:14 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ana Mourão, CRM, Customer Data and CDP Advisor. About Ana
In theory, we all understand that martech has the potential to shape customer experiences, transform internal processes, and drive business growth. But mastering individual tools offers limited value. Ana's experimental marketer framework proposes an interesting ideat: martech professionals must evolve into systems architects who orchestrate intricate technological ecosystems while maintaining laser focus on business outcomes. The framework, born from Ana's battlefield experience, advocates for marketers to embrace technology as a force multiplier. You already understand how martech drives conversions and engagement. Now imagine wielding that same power to revolutionize marketing operations, break down departmental barriers, and create seamless workflows that amplify team performance. This systems-level thinking separates strategic leaders from tactical operators. Marketing technologists possess unique insights into customer engagement processes, campaign execution, and performance optimization. The framework pushes you to leverage this knowledge beyond traditional boundaries. Step into cross-functional conversations with authority. Guide IT and operations teams toward solutions that serve marketing's mission while improving organizational efficiency. Your perspective proves invaluable in bridging the gap between technical capabilities and business objectives. Consider the ripple effects of your technology decisions. Each tool implementation, integration choice, and process automation creates waves that impact multiple teams and workflows. By viewing martech as an interconnected system rather than isolated solutions, you'll spot optimization opportunities invisible to those stuck in departmental silos. This elevated perspective transforms you from a tool specialist into a strategic architect of marketing operations. Some practical applications Ana recommends:
Marketing technology demands ruthless precision in system design. When tools operate in isolation, data fragments and teams falter. Ana examines how Stanley Black & Decker, the world’s largest industrial tool company, architected a unified martech ecosystem that transformed scattered tools into an integrated engine of market intelligence. Strategic Foundation & Business Context The system's strategic architecture spanned Latin America, Asia, Middle East, and Africa, deliberately excluding mature markets to focus on high-growth regions. This geographic scope demanded sophisticated balance between centralized control and local market agility. Rather than imposing rigid global templates, the architecture provided regional teams with dynamic frameworks for market-specific adaptation while maintaining brand integrity. Local empowerment emerged through granular control mechanisms. Teams gained the ability to modify email templates, adjust campaign elements, and launch market-specific promotions without technical dependencies. This operational autonomy accelerated time-to-market while reducing vendor reliance. A promotion in the Philippines could launch within hours instead of weeks, using pre-approved templates that maintained brand standards while accommodating local market conditions. The Tech Stack Evolution and Adding a CDP Marketing automation tools give your stack lightning-fast reflexes. They'll send emails, trigger workflows, and chase leads across channels with robotic precision. But Ana's work with Stanley Black & Decker exposed an uncomfortable truth: pure automation creates mindless action without strategic intelligence. You need a brain, not just a nervous system. The team's marketing automation platform fired off messages like clockwork. Yet it remained blind to the deeper patterns hiding in plain sight. User behaviors painted intricate stories: Anna gravitating toward e-commerce content while ignoring product launches, segments showing distinct engagement rhythms across markets. These crucial signals vanished into the void between automation triggers. The Customer Data Platform (CDP) entered as the cognitive center, not another mechanical add-on. This neural hub absorbed data streams from every market, brand, and channel. It learned to recognize behavior patterns, predict engagement paths, and surface hidden user affinities. The stack evolved from a collection of reflexes into an intelligent system capable of adapting to market-specific needs while maintaining coherent user understanding. Data Governance Through a Data Template Data governance rarely sparks joy. Yet Ana's work at Stanley Black & Decker proved that operational elegance hides in unexpected places. A data template, speaking the CDP's native language, transformed scattered global operations into a synchronized intelligence network without strangling regional teams in process. The system worked through elegant behavioral design, not brute-force mandates. Forms matching the template's structure flowed seamlessly into unified customer profiles within 36 hours. Non-compliant data languished in digital limbo, requiring manual resurrection through tedious cross-departmental coordination. This natural selection pressure rapidly evolved team behavior from template resistance to passionate advocacy. Market dynamics morphed at quantum speed. Regional teams caught form errors before deployment. Landing pages multiplied perfectly across continents. Data streamed automatically into unified profiles while teams slept. New requirements integrated organically without breaking existing flows. Most critically, cross-market performance comparison transformed from weeks of reconciliation hell into instant insight generation. The template's adaptive properties challenged conventional governance wisdom. It maintained rigid standards while enabling local flexibility.... | |||
| 20 Jul 2021 | 43: There’s a domain reputation behind every email | 00:30:11 | |
What’s up everyone, this is part 2 of our two part episode on email deliverability and getting into the primary tab in Gmail. If you haven’t yet, start with last week’s episode where we covered 2 crucial classification factors according to Google. The content in your email and how users interact with your emails. Here’s today’s main takeaway: Most email marketers understand that email domain and IP reputation play a critical role in your ability to land in the inbox. But most email marketers will admit they are easily spooked by all the accompanying fancy authentication acronyms. SPF, DKIM, DMARC, they just mean allowing Gmail and other email clients to verify you as the sender. We’ll break those and many more email deliverability tips right now. Today’s episode will cover things you can do that would help with other email clients, not just Gmail. We’ll cover sender reputation, authentication as well as tactics in your automation tool to improve deliverability.
We know for sure that factors that influence the spam folder are also factors in the inbox vs promos tab, that’s who the email is from. There’s an IP behind the sender, but there’s a domain behind the IP. Domain reputation vs sender ip reputation. There’s two main types of email reputation that can affect your sending: Both reputation scores are calculated separately but as you’ll see as we unpack things, both scores are closely related as your sending ip is mapped to your domain. Mailgun has a dope article on this https://www.mailgun.com/blog/domain-ip-reputation-gmail-care-more-about/ Mailgun claims that things like domain age, how the domain identifies across the web and whether it identifies with entertainment, advertising or finance industries can all impact your domain reputation. They believe domain reputation ultimately matters more to Google. Other suspected factors by rejoiner.com Domain reputation / Past behavior of the sender Google is quite clear about this: When messages from your domain are reported as spam, future messages are more likely to be delivered to the spam folder. Over time, many spam reports can lower your domain’s reputation. Gmail best practices
There’s currently 3 main authentication methods to prevent email spoofing; aka spammers from sending emails that appear to be from your domain:
DKIM DKIM lets a company take ownership of an email. This is why the reputation of your company domain (not your sending IP) is the basis for evaluating whether to trust the message for further handling, such as delivery. DKIM uses a pair of cryptographic keys, one private and one public. A private key aka the secret signature is added to the header of all your emails. A matching public key is added to your DNS record. Email servers that receive your messages use the public key to decrypt the private key in your signature. That’s how they verify the message was not changed after it was sent. Google has a simple guide for doing this, you start by generating a key for your domain, and just like your SPF record, you add the key to your domain's DNS records. DMARC Publish a DMARC record for your domain. DMARC is used in combo with SPF and DKIM, should be setup after. Specifically helps you prevent spoofing, aka a message that appears to be from your company but is not. Once you start sending after DMARC is setup, you can start to access reports from email servers... | |||
| 06 Jul 2021 | 41: Manuela Barcenas: From first marketer to team manager | 00:37:46 | |
What’s up everyone, today on the show we are joined by another local favorite marketer, Manuel Bárcenas. She’s a personal growth enthusiast and a startup marketer on a mission to help managers & their teams work better together. By the age of 18, Manuela had lived in three different countries: Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru. In 2014, she decided it was time for a new challenge and moved to Canada. She’s a journalism and communications graduate of Carleton here in Ottawa. She caught the startup marketing bug pretty early interning with Startup Canada right out of school and then working as a community developer at Carleton University. In 2018, Manuela was marketing hire #1 at Fellow.app one of the hottest startups in Ottawa. She’s been living the startup marketing life for nearly 3 years. At Fellow, she helped launch the successful Supermanagers podcast, she runs a huge newsletter (Manager TLDR newsletter) and self taught Hubspot and Google Analytics and much more. Manuela is a rising star and a must follow on marketing Twitter, she tweets about mindset, marketing and management. Manuela, thanks so much for coming on the show. Early journey
Some awesome tweets from Manuela: https://twitter.com/ManuelaBarcenas/status/1337155886545039362 https://twitter.com/ManuelaBarcenas/status/1395077830250225664
Manuela on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelabarcenas/ Manuela on Twitter: https://twitter.com/manuelabarcenas ✌️ -- | |||
| 25 Jul 2023 | 81: Pini Yakuel: Self-optimizing campaigns, the cost of generalization and packaged Martech | 00:46:29 | |
What’s up everyone, today we’re joined by Pini Yakuel, a trailblazing entrepreneur and the dynamic CEO of Optimove, a company at the forefront of AI in marketing. Summary: Pioneering the intersection of AI and marketing, Pini Yakuel sheds light on the transformative potential and present limitations of AI in the creative process. With Optimove, the era of hyper-personalized marketing campaigns has been around for a while, encouraging early-stage marketers to embrace the uniquely human aspects of their craft. Pini's vision harmonizes human creativity and AI precision, reshaping marketing strategies through self-optimizing campaigns and introducing an innovative approach to email marketing metrics. Underneath it all, Optimove's CDP, powered by Snowflake, emphasizes the power of packaged marketing solutions and the critical role of intelligent data usage in a unified platform. As we unpack Optimove's cutting edge AI features and we navigate the dynamic landscape of AI in marketing, Pini's insights offer a valuable compass. About Pini
The Evolution of AI in Marketing: A Perspective from Pioneers Pioneering AI marketer Pini has witnessed first-hand the transformative impact that AI, and specifically language models like GPT, have had on the world of marketing. His fascination isn't new; he's spent over a decade using AI to analyze customer data, setting trends rather than following them. Now, the advent of natural language processing (NLP) technologies is opening up new frontiers. Pini's fascination lies not only in the evolution of AI but also in the practical applications it can bring. Currently, GPT is sparking a lot of excitement in marketing, particularly in areas like copywriting and email marketing. Innovators are continuously finding creative ways to leverage GPT's capabilities, and Pini is no exception. He's eager to explore different ways to utilize GPT, from innovative marketing applications to shaking up traditional homework assignments in schools. Yes, you read that correctly. With AI's progress, school assignments as we know them might soon become a thing of the past. However, Pini also raises a note of caution amid the hype. There are bold claims out there about how AI will revolutionize industries, with some suggesting a handful of developers with OpenAI could outperform a traditional development team of a hundred. Predictions abound that marketers and designers could be entirely replaced, that professional photo shoots will cease to exist, and that human copywriting will become obsolete. But Pini isn't entirely sold on these extreme forecasts. He sees these as part of the hype cycle, where reality and expectations might not align perfectly. Despite the hype, Pini acknowledges that AI's advancements represent a significant step forward in AI capabilities, and it's this progress that fuels the current excitement. His prediction for the immediate future? A revolution in search engine technology, brought about by AI. He envisions a future where search engines provide deeper, more contextual responses to queries, effectively eliminating the need for multiple clicks or further reading. In Pini's eyes, this improved search experience will become a reality sooner than we might think. Takeaway: The rise of AI, especially in the realm of natural language processing, is transforming various sectors, including marketing. While it's essential to temper expectations amidst the hype, there's no denying the impact of AI's progress. For pioneers like Pini, the future of AI in marketing is about harnessing these capabilities in innovative ways. His immediate prediction? A revolution in search engine technology for a more efficient and rich user experience. The Potential and Limitations of AI in Marketing Jobs A common question that arises whenever there's a breakthrough in technology like AI is: will it replace human jobs? For marketers, this question is at the forefront, given the recent rise of AI into mainstream conversation. Pini, however, sees the situation in a nuanced way, particularly when it comes to creative tasks such as design work. For instance, let's consider AI applications in the context of creating digital art or graphic design, like the type of work generated by DALL-E, OpenAI's art-producing AI. While AI has demonstrated its prowess in creating complex, comic-book-like visuals, it still faces challenges in capturing and accurately reflecting unique brand aesthetics. In Pini's experience, one of his designers noted that while an AI might excel at creating a fantastical image of a unicorn riding a motorcycle on Mars, it's a different story when tasked with designing a banner that encapsulates the unique look and feel of a brand. Brands often have specific design languages and style guides that have been carefully crafted and evolved over time. Integrating these elements into AI-generated designs poses a significant challenge, and according to the designer Pini spoke to, AI isn't quite there yet. Takeaway: While AI is making strides in various areas, including creative tasks, it has its limitations. As per Pini's perspective, AI might struggle to replace the nuanced understanding and creativity of human marketers when it comes to creating brand-specific designs. This illustrates the importance of seeing AI as a tool to augment human capabilities rather than replace them entirely. Adapting to the AI Wave: Advice for Early Stage Marketers The rise of AI has created apprehension among early-stage marketers, especially recent graduates who are about to step into the job market. There's a fear that entry-level roles, such as email marketing or copywriting, could be taken over by AI, as it can save businesses a significant amount of time on initial drafts. Pini, however, offers a perspective that provides reassurance amidst these concerns. He acknowledges that automation has been a part of human progress for a long time, replacing certain tasks across different sectors. But he also underscores that AI and automation, for all their capabilities, can't replace the unique human touch. What makes us human - our ability to ask profound questions, carve out narratives, design experiments, and exercise creativity - is something that machines can't yet replicate. While AI can handle mundane, repetitive tasks (which many people don't particularly enjoy), it falls short when it comes to tasks that require a human touch. So, what does this mean for early-stage marketers looking to navigate the AI wave? Pini's advice is to double down on cultivating the uniquely human aspects of their craft. The future may bring new professions like AI technicians or AI designers, but the principles of curiosity, craftsmanship, and continuous learning will continue to be valuable. Takeaway: Despite the rise of AI, the uniquely human asp... | |||
| 12 Mar 2024 | 110: Josh Kim: Notion’s Growth Marketing Lead on choosing and democratizing experiments and the marketer’s role in a growth pod | 00:51:33 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Josh Kim, Growth Marketing Lead at Notion. Summary: Josh elevated growth marketing from scattered tactics to a unified framework, emphasizing data-informed decisions, teamwork, and a cohesive vision. He detailed the significance of a marketer's adaptable role in a growth pod, the value of strategic martech use, and the power of experimentation in understanding user motivation. By highlighting the synergy between community, product innovation, and growth, alongside the importance of continuous learning through programs like Reforge, Josh provided a compact yet rich guide for marketers seeking sustainable growth. About Josh
Josh shares invaluable lessons from his journey through renowned tech companies, spotlighting the essence of growth marketing and brand development. At the heart of his experience is a nuanced understanding of how to blend growth strategies with brand identity, creating a compelling narrative that resonates with users and drives business expansion. Starting at Credit Karma, Josh dove deep into the mechanics of marketing, where he honed his skills in crafting campaigns that not only speak to the product but do so with personality and flair. This foundational stage was crucial, laying the groundwork for his growth marketing philosophy: combining effective brand communication with a genuine connection to the audience. His tenure at Spotify offered a masterclass in synchronizing brand and growth efforts to fuel business scalability. Josh highlights the Spotify Wrapped campaign as a quintessential example of this harmony. This initiative wasn't just a branding triumph; it was a data-driven strategy that leveraged insights to engage both creators and consumers, showcasing the power of integrating brand narratives with growth objectives. At Notion, leading the growth marketing team, Josh finds himself among a cadre of exceptional talent, all united in their mission to make tool making ubiquitous. This role has underscored the importance of working on products that strike a chord with their users. Notion's success, according to Josh, lies in its ability to articulate a brand voice that appeals to a wide array of communities and individual users alike, demonstrating the profound impact of aligning product utility with user passion. Josh's reflections from his experiences at Credit Karma, Spotify, and Notion reveal a consistent theme: the significance of building a brand that not only stands out but also genuinely connects with its audience. This connection fosters an approachability and loyalty that transcends the traditional boundaries of product marketing, turning ordinary users into passionate advocates. Key Takeaway: Josh's experience underscores the critical role of brand marketing in growth. By weaving together insightful data, compelling narratives, and genuine consumer engagement, companies can cultivate a loyal user base and drive sustainable growth. This approach not only elevates the product but also cements the brand's place in the hearts and minds of its audience, proving that at the intersection of growth and brand, remarkable business success can be achieved.
Josh reflects on the journey of growth marketing from its "growth hacking" days to its current multidisciplinary nature, offering a nuanced perspective on how the field has matured to become an integral part of strategic business development. His insights shed light on the transformation of growth tactics from quick fixes to foundational strategies rooted in data and collaborative team efforts. Growth hacking, once the buzzword of startup culture, aimed to shortcut success with clever tricks and shortcuts. Josh candidly shares his discomfort with the term now, emphasizing that true growth cannot be "hacked." Instead, it requires a solid foundation based on first principles and a deep understanding of data to drive sustainable progress. This shift signifies a move from seeking immediate gains to establishing strategies that ensure long-term success. At the core of successful growth teams today is their multidisciplinary composition. Josh advocates for the inclusion of growth marketers directly within product teams to facilitate faster, more impactful decisions. This approach, pioneered during his tenure at Credit Karma and Spotify, has proven highly effective, especially at Notion, where growth marketers play a pivotal role in most product groups. This setup fosters an environment where different perspectives converge, leading to more holistic and successful growth strategies. Josh outlines three critical elements that define a strong growth team: Key Takeaway: The evolution of growth marketing from opportunistic "hacking" to a strategic, multidisciplinary approach highlights the importance of foundational data analysis, cross-functional collaboration, and a clear, shared vision for success. Josh's experience illustrates that the most effective growth strategies emerge from teams that integrate diverse expertise, focus on fundamental principles, and align around a common objective, paving the way for sustainable business growth.
Josh provides a compelling narrative on tailoring the growth marketer's role within a team or "pod" to enhance effectiveness and foster innovation. His approach underscores the importance of matching a growth marketer's strengths with the team's needs, creating a dynamic synergy that propels both strategy and execution forward. At the heart of Josh's strategy is the nuanced matchmaking between the team's requirements and the growth marketer's expertise. This process begins with a thorough assessment of both the team's strengths and gaps and the growth marketer's skill set. Whether it's proficiency in paid ads, data analytics, email marketing, or lifecycle management, the goal is to identify where the growth marketer can add the most value. This bespoke alignment ensures that the growth marketer's contribution is both impactful and complementary to the team's existing capabilities. Josh's personal experience at Spotify serves as a prime example of this approach in action. Identifying his strengths in data and analytics, lifecycle email engagement, and experiment design, Josh integrated himself into a pod th... | |||
| 30 Jan 2024 | 104: Paul Wilson: The Butterfly effect of martech pros and why they will bring a new hope for AI | 00:55:07 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the honor of sitting down with a true martech Jedi Master: Paul Wilson, Founder and Chief Strategist at GTM Systems. Summary: Paul wielded his lightsaber of wisdom, skillfully navigating the nebula of modern marketing technology and the rise of generative AI. He shared insights on the strategic dance of early freelancing in martech during the dawn of marketing automation and how there are similar opportunities today with harnessing the Force of generative AI. We delved into marketing operations, where professionals are like astute navigators of starships, steering through the complex cosmos of data management and AI integration. Paul's approach emphasized the importance of emotional intelligence and human intuition in a digital marketing realm. This episode was a hyperdrive journey through the galaxy of martech, peering into the future and illuminating the path for marketers to balance the Force of technological advancement with the art of human creativity. About Paul
During the nascent stages of martech, specifically around 2012-2013, Paul chose to freelance at a time when marketing technology was just beginning to take off. The industry was in dire need of experts who could navigate these new waters, and mature agencies were yet to build a team of experienced professionals. Paul's decision to freelance offered him a unique opportunity to work with diverse organizational structures and challenges, significantly enhancing his skill set and expertise. Paul's story serves as an example for those considering freelancing in the early stages of their career. The current state of martech and generative AI, according to him, mirrors the early 2010s. He observes a stagnation in marketing automation but anticipates a new wave of growth driven by generative technologies. As many professionals embrace independent consulting in 2023, Paul believes that their ability to adapt and apply their skills in this changing landscape will be crucial. Key takeaway: Early freelancing in martech, particularly for those with specialized skills, offers a strategic edge. It not only broadens experience but also hastens skill development. In the current martech landscape, similar to the early 2010s, adaptability is key. With generative technologies driving growth, professionals, especially independent consultants, must adapt and apply their skills to thrive in this evolving sector. Navigating Generative AI in the Martech Landscape The first key point Paul emphasizes is awareness. He illustrates this with the classic steps meme: a person with one foot on an escalator several steps higher than the other, symbolizing the disconnect between a CEO's perception of generative AI capabilities and the organization's actual position. This gap in awareness is where many companies struggle. Paul stresses the importance of understanding where an organization currently stands in its readiness to adopt these technologies. Paul touches on the necessity of a solid data foundation. He points out that fragmented data across silos impedes the effective implementation of generative AI. The quality, accessibility, and integration of data are crucial for creating a cohesive and scalable generative experience. Lastly, Paul discusses the organizational impact of adopting generative AI. He underscores the need for robust privacy and data governance policies. Organizations must evaluate how these technologies align with their existing structures and policies to avoid potential pitfalls like data leakage or misuse. Paul is currently focused on helping companies initiate their journey into this new era. He aids them in assessing their capabilities and readiness, a crucial first step in building a strategic roadmap for leveraging generative AI effectively. Key takeaway: Successfully integrating generative AI in martech hinges on three main factors: organizational awareness of current capabilities, a solid and integrated data foundation, and a thorough understanding of the organizational impact, including data governance and privacy policies. This strategic approach enables companies to navigate the complexities of generative AI and harness its full potential. How Marketing Operations Drives the Butterfly Effect in AI-Driven Martech Paul observes that marketing operations professionals are now the custodians of digital experiences. He reflects on the evolution of the field, noting how roles and responsibilities have shifted over time. For instance, the emergence of platforms like Outreach and SalesLoft around 2... | |||
| 26 Sep 2023 | 90: Lucie De Antoni: Startup alchemy, mixing data literacy and attribution with empathy and collaboration | 00:47:43 | |
What’s up folks, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Lucie De Antoni, Head of Marketing at Garantme. About Lucie
The Limits of AI in Taking Over Marketing Jobs When Lucie was asked about the rapid advancements in AI and the looming question of whether it could entirely replace marketing roles, her answer was a measured one. Yes, AI is making waves in various industries, including marketing. It's great for automation and can handle a variety of tasks that were previously manual and time-consuming. But don't start thinking it's time for marketers to pack up their desks just yet. According to Lucie, the real barrier for AI lies in mimicking human creativity and emotional intelligence. Marketing isn't just about numbers and algorithms; it's also about connecting with people on an emotional level. You're telling stories, crafting narratives, and essentially understanding what makes your audience tick. And that's where AI falls short. As of now, AI lacks the ability to truly understand human emotions and to use that understanding to create compelling stories or campaigns. Lucie emphasized that this limitation is actually good news for marketers. It means that while some tasks might become automated, the core of what makes marketing genuinely effective—the human touch—is something that AI can't replicate yet. In her view, this complex blend of creativity and emotional insight is why marketers are still very much needed in the business landscape. Key Takeaway: AI can automate and streamline a lot, but it can't replicate human creativity and emotional intelligence. This limitation is less a setback and more a reaffirmation: the essential skills marketers bring are irreplaceable. The Future of AI in SEO and Content Creation When asked about new categories or areas in martech that excite her due to AI advancements, Lucie got straight to the point—SEO and content creation are the game-changers. Not just because they're trendy, but because they've been persistent challenges for marketers across industries, whether you're a startup or an enterprise. Lucie candidly shared her experience with SEO; it's a field where you think you've finally cracked the code, only to find out months later that your results are still lackluster for the amount of effort you've poured in. This is where AI, particularly natural language processing, is starting to rewrite the rules. According to Lucie, it's the technology's ability to produce high-quality, relevant, and personalized content at scale that's truly groundbreaking. Teams can now churn out market-matching content without the human resource bottleneck. It doesn't replace the human touch, but it does elevate it, allowing teams to focus more on strategy than menial tasks. But it's not just about churning out content. Lucie emphasized the role of AI in data-driven decision-making. With AI-powered tools, you're not just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. You can now conduct market research, adapt your content strategy, and even adjust your editorial line. This is particularly invaluable in SEO, a field that's not just about numbers but also about understanding market dynamics, content quality, and the right toolsets. Lucie also made an interesting comparison between SEO and SEA/SEM. While SCA is primarily about numbers and budgets, SEO requires a more nuanced approach. It's not just what your competition is doing; it's also about the content you create and the tools you use. AI is now setting the stage for a much-needed evolution in SEO, enabling teams to be more effective and strategic. Key takeaway: Natural language processing through AI isn't just a 'nice-to-have' feature for your content and SEO strategies. It's become the edge that cuts through the noise, enabling not just automation but actual quality at scale. Forget the manual grind; AI allows you to adapt in real-time, revolutionizing the way you approach SEO from a problem to be solved to a game to be won. Elevating Data Literacy: A Marketer's Roadmap to Success When asked about the significance of data in today's martech landscape, Lucie doesn't hesitate to emphasize its pivotal role. AI, machine learning, automated lead scoring—none of these buzzwords matter if they're not grounded in solid data. But what does it mean to be truly data-literate in this space? For Lucie, it starts with internal alignment between the team and the overall objectives of the company. It's about asking the right questions, not just to your team but first to yourself. If you can't substantiate your marketing strategies with data, you can't expect to instill a culture of data-driven decision-making. There's no one-size-fits-all approach to data literacy. According to Lucie, the path depends on multiple factors, including the company's structure and the maturity level of the marketing department. Therefore, her first piece of advice for team leaders is straightforward: prove the importance of data-driven decisions to your team by asking the right questions yourself. Once that mindset is in place, the next steps involve setting clear marketing objectives and KPIs that are both specific and measurable. The mission doesn't stop with setting KPIs; it extends to continually scrutinizing them. As Lucie points out, SEO is a prime example where you could have a plethora of KPIs, but what's the point if you're not evaluating their relevance? Data literacy is not a static achievement; it's an ongoing dialogue that requires regularly reviewing and analyzing performance metrics to make real-time decisions that impact your business. Finally, Lucie encourages leaders to maintain an agile approach. A data-informed culture isn't rigid; it's adaptive. When a project takes an unexpected turn, don't be afraid to adjust your KPIs and your strategy. This flexibility not only fosters a data-driven mindset but also becomes a lesson your team will carry into their projects. Key Takeaway: Data literacy isn't about collecting KPIs for the sake of having numbers. It's about purposeful metrics that feed into agile decision-making. Being data-literate means you're not just gathering data, but you're agile enough to adapt your strategies based on that data. It's not a checkbox but an evolving skill, crucial for both individual projects and the overarching company strategy. SQL Skills in Marketing: Luxury or Necessity? When quizzed about whether SQL skills should be a staple in the marketer's skillset, Lucie offers a nuanced view. It's not about everyone on the team turning into SQL pros; it's about fostering specialized expertise. SQL and other data-query languages offer a gateway for some marketers to evolve into a new kind of expert within the team. Why? Because most in-house data teams are often too tied up with f... | |||
| 29 Oct 2024 | 143: Danny Lambert: A guide to data transformation and building a warehouse-first martech stack | 01:03:05 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Danny Lambert, Director of Marketing Operations at dbt Labs. Summary: Marketers often feel like they're battling a dragon when it comes to integrating data. We’re overwhelmed by technical jargon, stuck with outdated methods, and facing roadblocks from data teams. Danny walks us through his journey of cautiously entering the data world and the role dbt can play for marketing teams. By learning just enough SQL, knowing what tools you need to get started with and leaning on dbt’s tools, you can start small and gradually build a warehouse-first martech stack. The reward is more control over your data, flexibility to deploy personalized campaigns independently, and a competitive edge that no pre-packaged solution can match. About Daniel
Many marketers struggle to engage with data teams because they feel worlds apart. Danny points out that it’s a lot like the early days of marketing’s relationship with product teams. Before product-led growth (PLG) became a buzzword, marketers and product teams operated in separate silos. It took a concerted effort to break that wall, and the same shift is needed with data. Marketers often find the mechanics of data engineering and warehousing intimidating, and for good reason—they weren’t trained for it. But it doesn’t have to be that way. Danny recounts his time at CareCloud, where he was exposed to the concept of a data warehouse. The idea was gaining traction, and he attended a Snowflake event to grasp the essentials. After an hour of slides and schemas, he walked out just as confused as when he walked in. The issue wasn’t the information; it was the delivery. Marketers need to see things in action. Theoretical talks don’t cut it—practical, straightforward tutorials that walk you through the steps are what marketers crave. Installing tools like dbt and seeing data move can make it all click. It’s the difference between hearing about a new tool and actually feeling it work in your hands. There’s also a major gap in educational resources that cater to marketers. As Danny highlights, marketing professionals who want to embrace data often get lost in the flood of courses and jargon-heavy materials. It’s a jungle out there—marketers want concise, actionable guidance, not a deep dive into tech theory. Without the right content, many opt to stay in their lane, using tools and methods they already know. It feels safer, especially when they’re under pressure to perform quickly. Danny points out that this pressure to ramp up fast can discourage experimentation with a warehouse-first approach. New roles often come with tight timelines, and there’s a tendency to lean on old habits. Shifting to something like data warehousing means slowing down, learning the ropes, and building enough belief in the new approach to back it up internally. But if you’ve spent years doing things differently, it’s hard to develop the conviction needed to push for change. Confidence comes from exposure and understanding, but without that, the warehouse-first idea feels too foreign to champion. Key takeaway: Marketers often shy away from data teams because they lack practical, accessible education and feel pressured to stick with familiar methods. Building confidence through hands-on learning and real-world examples is crucial for integrating data and marketing in a meaningful way.
Many marketers hesitate to engage deeply with data, often because they don’t see it as central to their roles. Danny explains that for most, data feels like a secondary tool—something meant to assist rather than dominate their day-to-day work. The challenge is that the pathway to becoming data-savvy isn’t straightforward. Even among those who’ve made the leap, each person’s journey looks different. Some take online courses, like those on Codecademy, learning SQL from scratch. Others find mentors who guide them through the maze of data management, or they happen to work in environments where they can lean on a data specialist nearby. But there’s no universal roadmap, which makes the process feel daunting. Danny believes that the lack of a clear, predictable path to mastering data is one of the biggest hurdles marketers face. With so many options available—some technical, others more hands-on—marketers often struggle to identify which approach will actually get them the skills they need. For those with limited time, this uncertainty can be a dealbreaker. Without knowing if the investment will pay off, it’s easier to focus on other areas of marketing that feel more familiar and essential. Danny points out that while resources like Udemy are improving the situation, marketers still need a straightforward, reliable way to become proficient in data. Another critical factor is the perceived opportunity cost. Marketers are often juggling multiple responsibilities, from staying up-to-date with industry trends to managing campaigns. For many, the idea of dedicating time to learning data—an area they may feel they have minimal expertise in—feels like too large a barrier. Why spend time learning about data warehousing when there are immediate, pressing marketing concepts to master? This fear of committing time and energy to an unfamiliar, complex area keeps many from taking the first step. Danny emphasizes that while the accessibility of learning tools is improving, there’s still a significant gap. Even for those who want to upskill, the fear of the unknown and the lack of a guided pathway can make it feel like an insurmountable challenge. Until marketers can see a clear, accessible way to develop these skills, many will remain hesitant to dive into data, choosing to stick to familiar ground instead. Key takeaway: Marketers often shy away from learning data skills due to a lack of accessible, consistent learning paths and the fear of time investment without guaranteed outcomes. Creating structured, easy-to-follow resources is crucial to making data literacy a viable option for busy professionals.
Danny describes the transformation dbt brings to the data landscape, making it accessible not just to engineers but also to marketing ops and other non-engineering teams. In the past, accessing and manipulating data was a highly specialized skill, often requiring a marketer to rely heavily on a single engineer. As Danny puts it, you needed to build a relationship with this “one person in a closet somewhere” to get any insight or change implemented. This old approach made data access exclusive, slow, and frustrating for teams trying to move fast. With dbt, Danny explains, the dynamics shift dramatically. It creates different roles and permission levels for everyone interacting with data, enabling a self-service model for marketers and operat... | |||
| 26 Jan 2021 | 18: Make the most of your welcome email in your onboarding campaign | 00:27:44 | |
Try to send your welcome emails on behalf of coworkers who live in the same shoes as your target users. If you’re in B2B, chances are you’re using your own product, at least a coworker is. Let them write the welcome email for new users. This is especially powerful when you serve many different verticals. Example: if you sell to marketers and sales. Ask all new users to identify with sales/marketing in the signup process. Send the welcome email to marketers from a marketer at your company who showcases how they use the product for marketing use cases. Send the welcome email to sales reps from someone on your sales team who showcases how they use the product for sales use cases. JT: Okay Phil, you showed me a screenshot of this question you answered in a Slack community. PG: Yeah shoutout to Elite Marketers and Founders Slack community that was started by Joel Musambi and Tomas Kolafa, two Ottawa-Toronto marketers. JT: So the question was about building email onboarding flows for b2b products and any great resources or things that have worked well. I know that during our time together at Klipfolio we experimented a lot with emails but in your past you’ve done a bit of freelancing and moonlighting in email onboarding land. What’s this magic welcome email that works extremely well? PG: So I want to preface this by saying that this really only works if your product sells to different segments of users. And this is usually the case right? If you only sell to marketers for example, there might still be segments in the decision makers, so you could talk to the marketing manager who’ll be using the product, you might talk to the marketing ops person who needs to integrate new tools and you might need sign off from the Director who’s the decision maker. JT: yeah we could do a full episode on segmentation, maybe we should. Okay so let’s actually use an example here, let’s go with a popular name and let’s pick a tool that tons of verticals can use, lots of use cases. PG: Yeah let’s go with Basecamp. Project management tools. There’s so many of them. In part because everyone can use a project management or todo list type of tool. Basecamp sells to a bunch of different roles. Marketers, sales, product teams, finance, you name it, there’s a use case for it. JT: So I’m on their site now, when you start a trial, there’s a few questions they ask you up front, did you go through this already? PG: haha yeah I did a bit of prep for this. When you start a trial of Basecamp they ask you for name and email, then company name and job title/role. They then ask if your company has these departments/anyone that works in these roles, they list sales, rnd, marketers, finance and managers. Then they even ask for a use case, if you’re working on any of these projects, site build, event, new product launch or rebrand. JT: That’s actually quite a lot of info to ask upfront. I’m okay with it if companies are doing something with that info though. So you finished creating an account, Welcome emails come in about 5 mins later. Are you happy? PG: I’m actually really sad haha. Basecamp is a tiny team so email segmentation and onboarding is probably super low on their list. I remember when they hired a head of marketing their job posting said something like “this job isn’t about email nurturing, though very important, the scope of this role is much broader”. And that makes a ton of sense. Small team, you gotta prioritize. JT: So the welcome email wasn’t segmented? PG: Sent from support@ and there’s no segmentation content in there despite knowing my role and my use case. They are probably using that data to inform other decisions, but I didn’t get any segmented content that could’ve boosted engagement. JT: Okay, let’s say I’m Jason or Andy at Basecamp and we hire you to upgrade our email onboarding and you need to impress the shit out of these guys. What does the welcome email look like? PG: Yeah so let’s go back to some of the questions Basecamp asks users in the signup process. By asking for job title, they could lookup specific words and put me in a role bucket. Something really cool that they do in the onboarding is ask what departments you have setup and to invite someone from that team. In this case Basecamp knows if someone is from rnd or finance. JT: So user signs up, you know they fit into 1 of 5 role buckets:
PG: So then next step is nominating 1 person in your company for each of those role buckets. And you help them write the welcome email from their perspective and share how they use the product. So the welcome email to marketers comes from Andy, their head of marketing, he shows Basecamp in action for a product launch he completed recently and walks through his daily process for running marketing through basecamp. Rnd email comes in from DHH, their famous CTO. He probably reminds you that he created ruby on rails in the welcome email haha but he’s probably able to craft something totally different for a technical user compared to a marketer in Andy’s email. So maybe in that email DHH talks about Basecamp 3’s API improvements or how they break up user stories into subcomponents and sub tasks. The manager email comes from Jason their CEO and he walks other managers and team leaders through the Small Council team setup they use internally or maybe the campfire sections and how to keep the team in touch and highly collaborative. JT: love it. What you’re doing is creating instant connection with empathy in your welcome email. It’s written in language you’re familiar with and the use cases shown are super familiar with your world. PG: Yeah so haven’t done this in a bunch of places there, it doesn't always work, especially if you serve a very niche audience. But usually in B2B someone in your company resembles your target user. I find it super fun to work for a B2B company that sells to marketers or marketing ops. So I’m someone on the team but I’m also very close to the customer’s worlds, I live in similar pain points every day. | |||
| 11 May 2021 | 33: What is async work and is it truly attainable? | 00:40:16 | |
Back to office, staying fully remote, flexible hybrid setup. Global pandemics gave millions of knowledge workers the taste of remote work. And a lot of them are never going back. A global distributed workforce means access to untapped talent but it also means time zone and synchronous meeting challenges. Getting everyone from your local Toronto office to show up to the same meeting at 10am EST is pretty easy. Running the same meeting with a team spread across 5 time zones makes this much more challenging. Especially if you want to promote autonomous and flexible work schedules. The solution isn’t less meetings or hybrid meetings. The solution is asynchronous communication. In today’s episode we’re going to cover what async means exactly, being able to say “I’ll get that done on my own time”. We’ll dispel some of the misconceptions and dive into the stages of transformation towards autonomy. Hopefully you’ll be better positioned to encourage async in your day to day, whether you're in-house or freelance adapting now is key for leading any teams in the future. Intro Hundreds of companies declared themselves remote first and digital first last year. A lot of them are massive corporations too. This transition will be excruciatingly slow and painful for big orgs. These orgs are studying companies who have been doing this for decades. Remote work isn’t new for everyone. Convertkit, Close, Basecamp (60+ actually much lower with recent policy changes), Helpscout, Clearbit, Buffer, Doist (100+) and Zapier is 500 people, remote-first all smaller, very little funding, innovators in the remote space. There’s also the bigger teams too. Automattic, the people behind WordPress are 1,000+ global distributed team and have been from the early days. InVision is fully remote, 1000+, GitHub is 3,000+. Something all of these distributed work pioneers talk about is over-communication in the written form, but specifically, asynchronous communication. In the world of most marketers, and knowledge workers for that matter, very little of your day to day tasks are emergencies, or require immediate action. The nature of async can be summed with a short sentence: I’ll get to that as soon as I get the chance, or on my own time. Async is sending a message and having a common understanding that an immediate response is not expected. Email is usually async. You send it and you expect an answer in a day or 2 or more. Recipient opens that email on their time and responds when they get the chance. Synchronous communication is sending a message and the recipient needs to process and respond in real time immediately. In a meeting with your team on Zoom, you say something, your team members receive and respond right away. When you take the time to think about it, most of what you do in your job could be done with a 1-way written update sent to a single person or a group of people, who can respond as soon as they get the chance. Obviously there’s times when there’s emergencies, or sometimes the nature of your work requires real time collaboration like live support teams or front line sales reps, and there’s different ways of tackling those situations than async. Examples Instead of saying: hey do you have 15mins to chat today About this project? Async is saying: here’s two questions I have regarding the last update you made on this project. Instead of saying: here’s an invite to a meeting where I’m going to walk you through a project update and I’m mostly going to be doing the talking, everyone will be seeing this for the first time and I’ll be asking for your attention for 1 hour and immediate feedback. Async is saying: here’s a short summary of a project update followed by a detailed overview of a problem I’m having and specific questions I’d like guidance on. Here’s what I’ve done so far, here’s when I need an answer by. Benefits Deep work / flow state Tons of research shows that increasing response times allows people time to reflect and remove emotion from the equation thus making better decisions. Human centered way of working “…the ability to let people in whenever they want to work, however long they want to work in a day…that’s what asynchronous is about. If you think that way, you have to make more intentional changes in the work process, collaboration process, to enable every one of those people to come into the workforce.” Productive night owls This is derived from chronotypes, our preferred sleeping patterns. But imagine forcing a pure night owl to work 9am to 5pm. And then giving this same person the ability to work 11-3pm and 9pm-11pm. The opposite is also true for ultra early risers like JT. Async teams give everyone way more flexibility to get their work done when they are more alert and productive. Just gotta strive for some overlap, you can’t NEVER have in-person meetings. Misconceptions / passing baton is too slow / project management tools suck Passing the baton with project management tools Consider this: globally distributed teams, who work async and master ‘passing the baton’, can get three times more done than a local team relying on everybody to be in an office between 9am and 5pm. This is something that Matt Mullenweg, Automattic CEO and WP founder has pointed out in a few podcasts. A local centralised company that runs on real-time noisy office environments with plenty of all too common consensus-seeking meetings cannot and will not survive in the next few years. Project management tools such as Asana are key to helping you run an async ship. How many sync/update meetings have you had where people go around the room one after the other updating everyone on their asana tasks when everyone knows they could’ve read up on those updates without a meeting. This requires diligence and it’s not for everyone. Project management tools often drive tennis games of back and forths. Avoiding tennis games of back and forths One of the biggest knocks against async is that it slows things down and often times, what could’ve been a simple pre-game discussion turned into a marathon tennis game of back and forth. Tips to avoid this:
5 levels: 0 - Coffee baristas, construction workers. You need to be in a physical location to do the work. 1 - Not remote-friendly, old school but in seats, company space, company time. ... | |||
| 03 May 2022 | 55: India Waters: The path to promotions is raising your hand up | 00:39:53 | |
What’s up folks, today on the show we are joined by India Waters
You spent 4.5 years there and I’m sure things changed quickly and often. The importance of trying new things Constantly changing strategies in startups Target customers You first started working at Memoir which was an app for consumers and was probably hard to segment as it could be used by anyone. Then the company (Veri) refocused to pivot the app for the wedding industry which led to the acquisition. Now you’re at a tech company selling marketing software to marketers. Talk about how different it is to sell a product with product market fit or a more focused target customer? Community-led growth Working up to different roles at a bigger company MessageGears – on premise vs SaaS
On premise software vs SaaS and cloud based tools Connecting and using DW data vs (API) operating on a copy of your data MessageGears vs Pardot and Marketo
Baby podcast
One question we ask all our guests is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you’re working on while staying happy? -- India’s twitter: https://twitter.com/indialandwaters India’s LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/india-waters/
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| 26 Apr 2022 | 54: A blueprint for getting a job at a company you love | 00:23:54 | |
The great resignation phenomena has taken over mainstream media, but what does it really mean? Is it simply a buzzword for saying, more people than ever are sticking to remote work and not going back to the office? Or does it actually mean that more people are taking the leap and leaving bad workplaces, and toxic jobs? Let’s call it the great realization or the great awakening. COVID and the pandemic didn’t just open up the eyes of CEOs and managers to remote work, more importantly, it awakened a class of workers who’ve been sucking it up in a bad job thinking it was normal and that things aren’t better anywhere else. But these people are awake now. And better jobs and companies do exist. Here’s todays main takeaway: Hustle culture is dying. You deserve better pay, more flexible hours, less meetings, better benefits and better leadership. Last season in episode 048, we told you when to quit your job. In today’s episode, we’ll walk you through a simple playbook for finding a good job, with a company you love. JT are you ready? — The importance of networking in finding a job and how this doesn’t mean what it used to.
— I’m part of several marketing communities, one I’ve heard great things about and just recently joined is ALL IN, a free Slack community for in-house marketers created by Brendan Hufford, the guy behind SEO for the rest of us. One of the coolest channels is the #career channel where you can post questions about specific challenges. Recently a fellow member posted about having a hard time finding a new role. He mentioned applying to a bunch of places but not hearing back from any of them. I helped some of my former students in this exact situation and I’ve boiled it down to a simple blueprint for this episode. —
— I like the advice on having a companies you’d love to work for. I imagine this requires a bit of soul searching on what you want out of your own career. How did you figure that out? And what does that list of companies look like for you?
Before getting a gig at WordPress, some of the companies I was actively keeping an eye on we’re
— How do you come up with the list?
The key thing here is don’t just flat out cold ask for a connection request. Some of these folks are super friendly and they'll accept. But you don’t have a relationship yet so you’re better offer clicking on the “follow button”. Once you’re on their profile, scroll down to the activities section and click on See all activity, then hit Posts. That’s a direct feed to everything they post on LinkedIn. Grab that URL and add it to your spreadsheet next to the company name and the hiring manager’s name. As an extra step, you can search twitter to see if they are active on there too. –
They key thing here is engaging with their posts, start with a few likes and eventually if you have value to add, add some comments to their posts. In time, the hiring managers will get familiar with your name, they might even check you out.
When you see something you want to apply to, reach out to the hiring manager before you do. Don’t ask them for a coffee or a quick intro, be direct and offer to let them answer async. Have some thoughtful clarification questions about the role and show your passion for their work/company. You want to standout ahead of applying here with some thoughtful questions and feel free to even ask for tips on the hiring process. And then let the magic happen, crush those interviews. —
Eventually you won’t need to apply to jobs anymore and all these connections you’ve made will naturally evolve into new opportunities. ✌️ -- | |||
| 06 Feb 2024 | 105: Josh Hill: Mastering martech with a hands-on, exploratory approach and rigorous data hygiene | 00:49:40 | |
What’s up everyone, today we’re chatting with Josh Hill, a GTM operations and tech executive with more than 20 years of experience in B2B sales, marketing, and technology. Summary: Josh delved into how integrating sales experience into marketing strategies leads to more customer-centric approaches. He highlighted the importance of hands-on experience with martech tools, blending marketing creativity with technical know-how, and the significance of high-quality data for effective AI implementation in marketing. He shared his journey of juggling personal projects with professional growth, striking a chord on maintaining work-life balance in a high-octane career. This episode is a backstage pass for anyone in martech, offering practical insights and strategies to take center stage in this mad world of martech. About Josh
Josh's career trajectory from sales to marketing is a story that demonstrates the value of cross-functional skills in today's business world. His time at The Economist, where he honed his skills in account renewal and new business acquisition, laid a solid foundation for his later transition to marketing. Josh highlights the importance of direct customer interactions and negotiation skills developed in sales, which provided him with a unique perspective and skill set. These skills proved to be invaluable as he moved into marketing, particularly in stakeholder management and vendor relations. In his sales role, Josh realized a disconnect between marketing materials and customer perceptions. This insight led him to rethink the approach to customer engagement, moving away from traditional sales pitches to a more content-focused marketing strategy. His success in sales, where he was one of the top representatives, stemmed from aligning customer needs with marketing messages, an approach he sought to scale in his marketing role. Josh's transition was not just a shift in job functions but a broader business transformation. He emphasized the importance of aligning sales and marketing, leveraging marketing automation tools, and understanding the nuances of demand generation. His hands-on experience with attribution reporting and CRM systems further enriched his marketing expertise. Josh's journey is a testament to the benefits of integrating technology and customer service experiences into marketing strategies. Key takeaway: Josh's transition from sales to marketing at The Economist underscores the value of integrating sales insights into marketing strategies. By utilizing his direct customer interactions and negotiation skills acquired in sales, he crafted marketing approaches that were more aligned with customer needs and expectations. This fusion of sales and marketing perspectives proved crucial in developing effective, customer-centric marketing strategies, demonstrating the importance of cross-functional skills in the martech industry. Building a Respected Martech Resource: Marketing Rockstar Guides Josh's journey in the martech world is a remarkable story of how personal branding and content marketing can converge to create a powerful platform. His blog, Marketing Rockstar Guides, emerged as a response to the growing curiosity and challenges professionals faced in understanding and utilizing marketing technology tools effectively. Recognizing the gap in practical, hands-on knowledge, Josh leveraged his own experiences and insights to create a resource that would demystify complex martech concepts for a broader audience. Initially, Josh's venture into content creation was fueled by his innate ability to understand and implement emerging martech tools, a skill that many in the industry were struggling with. His hands-on approach to learning by doing became the cornerstone of his content strategy. He began addressing common workflow problems and providing solutions through his blog, quickly transforming it into an essential resource for martech professionals. This move not only established him as a thought leader but also laid the groundwork for his first consulting gig, showcasing the power of sharing knowledge. As the blog grew, it became a significant inbound engine for his consulting business, attracting professionals who were grateful for the practical guidance it offered. Topics on the blog often stemmed from community questions, reflecting Josh's commitment to addressing real-world problems and aiding career development in the martech sector. This engagement also opened doors for speaking opportunities, further solidifying his position as an expert in the field. However, managing a growing platform while balancing a full-time job became a challenge for Josh. His decision to pass on the baton of his blog was not an easy one, but it was a strategic move to ensure the continuity of the resource he had built. The sale of the blog marked a new phase in his career, as he began exploring other content platforms and mediums, like LinkedIn, to continue sharing valuable insights in the evolving martech landscape. Key takeaway: Josh's creation and eventual sale of Marketing Rockstar Guides is a testament to the impact of sharing expertise and practical solutions in the martech industry. His approach demonstrates the power of content marketing and personal branding in building a respected resource, while also highlighting the challenges of balancing personal projects with professional commitments. The Practicality of Hands-On Martech Experience Josh's insights into the martech world emphasize the invaluable role of hands-on experience in mastering marketing technology. His journey, particularly during his early days at The Economist, showcases the significance of directly engaging with tools and processes to understand and improve them. This hands-on approach, he believes, is crucial for anyone looking to excel in the martech field. Initially, Josh tackled attribution by manually analyzing data within a limited scope, using tools like Salesforce campaigns. This process, though time-consuming, was instrumental in understanding the effectiveness of various marketing tactics, such as content types and event charges. This hands-on experience allowed him to develop a deep understanding of low-level attribution, leading to more effective marketing strategies and cost reductions. However, Josh advises against relying solely on manual processes. Instead, he encourages a 'play to learn' approach, advocating for exploration and experimentation with martech tools. This involves questioning every step of a process, from sending an email to capturing data for a white paper. By understanding the components and mechanics of these tasks, martech professionals can more effec... | |||
| 18 Jun 2024 | 124: Angela Cirrone: How to pick between similar martech solutions and master platform migrations | 00:46:35 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Cirrone, Senior Director, Marketing Operations at Optimizely. Summary: Angela brings a fresh perspective to marketing operations, a key theme throughout the conversation is curiosity and how it helps boost your confidence and be a key lego block to a successful career. What makes her a unique leader is her experience being part of over a dozen acquisitions which came with over a hundred platform migrations and integrations. She’s developed a framework for platform migrations and a knack for evaluating software and building a stack with martech minimization in mind. We also navigated the convergence of martech and analytics in MOPs and pondered whether MOPs should report into GTM? About Angela
Angela reflects on her initial days at Optimizely, surrounded by experts in marketing operations. She didn't start out knowing all the answers. Instead, she focused on moving challenges forward, a method she credits for easing her entry into a field filled with experienced professionals. Angela quickly realized the power of not knowing everything but having the skills to find out. She champions the idea of empowerment through curiosity within her team. This approach shifts the emphasis from having instant solutions to developing the ability to explore and tackle problems efficiently. Angela believes that when a marketer faces a new issue, the goal shouldn't be to solve it immediately but to start unraveling it bit by bit. Angela suggests that anyone can build confidence by being inquisitive and resourceful. This means enhancing one’s skills in using tools like AI and Google, and tapping into a network of knowledgeable peers. This skillset turns daunting challenges into a series of smaller, more manageable tasks. She openly shares her moments of doubt, reassuring us that even seasoned professionals feel uncertain at times. What matters is how they handle these moments—by seeking solutions and learning from the process. Key takeaway: Angela's journey teaches us that true confidence in marketing operations comes from cultivating curiosity and resourcefulness. Marketers can future-proof their careers by learning to decompose complex issues and steadily work through them, which not only builds individual confidence but also enriches team dynamics.
When Angela joined Upland Software, she found herself right in the middle of a tidal wave of acquisitions—14 in total during her time there. Each of these mergers, including one with her former company Kubity, thrust her into a role that tested her skills and confidence. Her task was to merge different technologies and operational cultures into Upland’s existing framework, and in some cases she had just six months to make it happen. This period marked a significant leap in her career, filled with both challenges and substantial learning. Angela's experience at Upland was filled with managing logistics but it also presented an opportunity to shape the company’s future. With no formal marketing ops team in place and the function previously outsourced to an agency, Angela saw a gap. She proposed and established a dedicated team, shifting the company's approach from external reliance to internal strength. This move was about building a foundation that was robust and could handle the complexities of future growth. Each acquisition brought different practices and technologies to the table. Angela emphasized the importance of understanding the reasons behind each company’s methods. She saw this as more than just integrating new tools into Upland’s tech stack but a chance to think critically about what improvements these new elements could bring to the company. Reflecting on her time at Upland, Angela highlights the formation of the marketing ops team as a key achievement. Her approach shows how tackling immediate challenges with a strategic mindset can lead to lasting advancements within a company. Key takeaway: Dealing with acquisitions in martech requires strategic foresight and the courage to drive change. By viewing each migration and integration project as a stepping stone for improvement, marketers can capitalize on the opportunities these changes bring.
We asked Angela to unpack how her first few integration projects looked liked compared to her 13th and 14th acquisitions. She started by sharing details on the evolution of the process for merging data from new acquisitions into existing systems. Initially, the process was somewhat indiscriminate, with an emphasis on transferring as much data as possible, regardless of its immediate value or relevance. Over time, Angela and her team developed a more nuanced strategy, likening it to "packing a suitcase, not the whole house." This approach meant being selective about which data and tech assets to integrate, focusing on quality and relevance rather than quantity. They established clear criteria for what to include, such as activity levels and the strategic value of certain accounts or campaigns. This method allowed them to streamline the integration process and avoid cluttering their system with unnecessary data. Naturally, when two companies merge, two tech stacks also need to merge. A key part of refining their approach involved making tough decisions about existing contracts and technologies. Angela encountered scenarios where newly acquired companies had recently entered into multi-year contracts for technologies that were not part of her company’s preferred tech stack. Deciding whether to honor these contracts, transition to preferred technologies immediately, or find a middle ground was a complex challenge that required strategic thinking and careful negotiation. By the time of the later acquisitions, Angela’s strategy had matured significantly. The team had moved from a lenient approach to a more standardized method, focusing on aligning new acquisitions closely with operational standards. This shift not only improved the efficiency of the integrations but also ensured that new additions could seamlessly contribute to the company’s overall strategy. Key takeaway: By focusing on what truly adds value and aligning new assets with established standards, marketers can enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of their tech stacks and data strategies. This strategic integration ensures smoother transitions during acquisitions and can significantly boost a company’s capabilities in the competitive martech landscape.
Angela often faced a common scenario: deciding whether ... | |||
| 06 Oct 2020 | 02: The right questions can get you a job | 00:19:26 | |
How do you decide what type of company you want to work for? Figure out who your dream companies are in that size, space, industry by trying new things. In college, I worked for a startup sized agency, a public enterprise, a governement department. I knew I would be likely happier in smaller companies. The most important part of an interview is not to be prepared for what they will ask, but rather making sure you ask the right questions. One of my favs: Totally ask the company what the salary range is for this position. Usually it's just the candidate forced giving a range. Doesn't have to be the case. Questions to ask based on size of company (Startup) Data/technical support, is there a data warehouse (Scale up) What's the plan/reporting structure, ops report to marketing or revenue, examples of projects (Enterprise) Ask biggest problems right now, ask about tech stack, ask about change resistance, age of staff. Questions to ask regardless of company size: Ask people what they love the most about the job. What they think of manager. what are the big upcoming projects, make sure they match your KPIs. What sod you see as the biggest hurdle for this role. How to show your passion: pick a project you loved, and go deep into the details and why you loved it. Idea: Send a cover letter via video; play on the remote factor. If it's an email job, tell the manager you wrote an email series for them as an introduction to your experience and background. If it's a lifecycle role, send them your favorite workflow template. How to differentiate yourself: show how much you learn on your own, not just in your day to day, talk about mentors, courses, Slack groups, favorite authors and thought leaders. | |||
| 24 Oct 2023 | 94: Ryan Gunn: HubSpot cheat codes, AI features, attribution and documentation | 00:50:16 | |
What’s up folks, today we’re joined by Ryan Gunn, Director of Demand Gen & Marketing Ops at Aptitude 8. Summary: HubSpot is not just a user-friendly CRM but also a forward-looking tool in the rapidly evolving world of AI and martech. While it's not a substitute for a dedicated data warehouse for complex queries, it serves well as a real-time connector to other systems via CRM cards. Gaining practical skills from HubSpot's developer portal is critical—certifications alone won't cut it. If keeping up with martech changes overwhelms your in-house team, specialized consultancies offer a reservoir of constantly updated expertise. Sound documentation serves as the bedrock of your internal processes, setting you up for long-term success. Don't just read about it; listen to the podcast episode for deep, actionable insights into leveraging HubSpot for AI integration and data quality. About Ryan
HubSpot's Emerging AI Landscape and Market Adoption We started by asking Ryan about his experience with HubSpot's new AI tools and their current usage in the market, he offered a comprehensive view. HubSpot is rolling out two significant tools: Content Assistant and ChatSpot. Content Assistant serves as an internal ChatGPT, letting users draft blog posts or emails directly within HubSpot's interface. ChatSpot, while more complex, operates as an external system linked to your CRM data, generating reports through natural language prompts. However, these tools are still in the nascent stage. Ryan revealed that the implementation rate is relatively low at this point. Despite the curiosity among clients to explore these features, the tools haven't fully integrated into business processes yet. But don't let that deter you; HubSpot is ahead of the curve in the AI game. According to Ryan, HubSpot has already laid out a roadmap for AI-based tools that will extend far beyond just Content Assistant and ChatSpot. We're talking about reporting assistants, automation assistants, and even an AI-powered website builder. This isn't a mere extension of existing features; it's a reimagination of what a CRM can be. HubSpot is not stopping at providing the basic CRM tools; they're layering AI functionalities on top, touching every aspect of their platform. While current adoption may be slow, Ryan sees this as an indicator of an inevitable, transformative change in how businesses will interact with CRMs. Key Takeaway: The adoption rate of HubSpot's new AI tools may be in its infancy, but that's more a function of market readiness than a comment on the tools' potential. With an expansive AI roadmap, HubSpot is setting the stage for a future where AI isn't just an add-on; it's intrinsic to the CRM experience. It's worth keeping an eye on HubSpot's next moves, as they'll likely set the pace for the industry. The AI Integration Dilemma for Emerging Tech Founders When Ryan was asked about the hesitation some tech founders have regarding AI integration into their products, his stance was unequivocal: it's early days, but progress is rapid. A mere six months ago, AI was barely a blip on most of our work radars. Now, it's becoming integral. Founders find themselves at a crossroads, forced to make a pivotal decision. Either integrate AI into their software or offer the option to connect their software with AI tools via third-party platforms like Zapier. But this isn't a decision to make lightly. According to Ryan, it boils down to whether the company aims to be a comprehensive platform or a specialized point solution. Opting for the latter means the pressure is on to excel in that niche. If they don't, larger platforms like HubSpot are poised to scoop up those features, layer AI functionalities over them, and package it as a part of their already established CRM systems. These integrated solutions may not be better, but they offer convenience by residing in an ecosystem clients are already invested in. So what's the crux of the issue? To integrate or not isn't just a technical decision; it's a strategic one that could define a company's future. Choose to stay specialized, and you need to be the best in that realm to stay relevant. Integrate AI, and you may not outshine the giants, but you become a part of a broader, rapidly evolving landscape. Key Takeaway: Hesitation to integrate AI into your product could lead to missed opportunities. You're choosing between being a specialist in a niche or part of a wider, faster-evolving tech ecosystem. Each has its merits, but understand this: indecision is a decision in itself, and the pace of AI development waits for no one. The Vital Role of Data Structure in AI Adoption When Ryan was asked about the practicalities of implementing AI tools in CRM systems like HubSpot, he was quick to pinpoint the critical role of data structure. It's simple: your AI experience is only as good as the data you provide. If you've got a shaky foundation, don't expect the sophisticated algorithms to correct your mistakes. AI isn't a magic wand that turns bad data into insightful outcomes; it's a magnifier that accentuates the quality—or lack thereof—of your existing information. This isn't a new phenomenon. Ryan compares the situation to current reporting structures within organizations. How many times have you heard, "I don't trust this report" or "These numbers aren't right"? Often, the blame doesn't lie with the reporting tool but with the underlying data or its flawed structuring. Just like you wouldn't blame a mirror for how you look in the morning, pointing fingers at AI for poor results steers the attention away from the actual culprit: bad data. This brings us to an important realization: if you're going to integrate AI into your processes, you need to take the time to audit, clean, and structurally organize your data. AI isn't forgiving; it doesn't make bad data better, it makes it obvious. And in the realm of business where data-driven decisions are pivotal, shoddy data is not just an inconvenience—it's a handicap. Key Takeaway: Before even thinking about adopting AI into your CRM or any business process, ensure your data is clean and well-structured. Anything less and you're setting yourself up for failure. AI amplifies the quality of your data; it doesn't fix it. Make this your first step in any AI implementation journey. The Tug-of-War Between All-In-One Solutions and Niche Expertise When asked about the consolidation of martech tools, particularly in platforms like HubSpot, Ryan offered a clear-cut viewpoint. The future belongs to either all-encompassing platforms or specialized point solutions catering to niche markets. There's a thinning middle ground, and if you're neither a giant like HubSpot nor focused ... | |||
| 02 Feb 2021 | 19: Steffen Hedebrandt: Reaching B2B attribution nirvana | 00:41:20 | |
Steffen Hedebrandt is co-founder of Dreamdata.io. Phil Gamache: What's up, guys? Welcome to the Humans of MarTech podcast. His name is Jon Taylor, my name is Phil Gamache. Our mission is to future-proof the humans behind the tech so you can have a successful and happy career in marketing.
Today on the show, we have a super special guest. We're joined by Steffen Hedebrandt. Steffen got his start in the world of marketing doing some SEO and some growth consultancy in the startup world. And he moved to Oslo in Norway to work in sales/BizDev for a company called Elance, which would eventually become Upwork after the oDesk acquisition. And he stayed there for three and a half years and moved back to Copenhagen and took a position as Head of Marketing at Airtame, a wireless HTMI product startup which John and I know very well. And at some point during your time at Airtame, you solved some pretty cool big attribution problems with some custom engines, and you started to get this itch about starting your own company.
In the summer of 2019, you, Ole and Lars, both former SVPs of Trustpilot made the plunge and started DreamData. So today the main takeaway is going to be that, gone are the days where enterprise companies are the only people who can solve multitouch B2B attribution and tools like DreamData are solving this for startups and SMBs. So Steffen, thanks so much for being on the show, man.
Thanks a lot, Phil. Really looking forward to it. We've talked a lot about this topic before. I'm sure we'll get pretty deep pretty fast.
Like myself, I've evaluated DreamData quite a bit, so I'm super familiar with the platform itself. John, I don't know how much you know about it, but I wanted to kind of start off with your journey a little bit and go back to when you were working at Upwork basically, this big tech role and how different was that from your previous role in the startup world and what did you like most about both roles?
From the get-go out of university, I joined the Vintage and Rare, which is basically, or I don't know if they exist anymore, but it was a platform for selling vintage instruments where kind of gathering shops and the shops would then put their instruments up there. And the first craft that I really learned after studying was really SEO because if you have 10,000 instruments, then you really want to have those instruments on top of Google instead of your competitors there. And, I just got super fascinated by actually how big an impact you can have when you understand that Google algorithm and how to friendly manipulate a little bit towards your own business. Steffen Hedebrandt: But, that was an almost bootstrapped kind of project which led me to reading The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris and dipping my toes into places like Elance and trying to hire people from India and try to connect them with the other freelancers you had in Europe and other freelancers you had in the US and then suddenly you have this web of people all over the world that you have to make work and that's quite a challenge. Steffen Hedebrandt: Fun story, my first job was, I put up a job for a person to add people on Myspace that's set with a guitar in their profile image. Super non valuable, but it was just to test down. So our vintage and rare profile had more followers. I learned a ton there and we didn't make any money, but we were greatly successful on Google and having been there for I don't know how long the was, three years or so. I actually got approached by Elance as they were setting up their European office and asked whether I wanted to join that and try to promote Elance in Europe. And, me being a big fan of the platform, I thought, okay, well, I haven't made any money in the last three years, so, let me go get a real job for a period. Steffen Hedebrandt: So, the music instrument platform was really fixing anything digital, this ads, SEO, et cetera, where Elance's and Upwork was much more the traditional business development like doing PR, doing events, handing over a list of keywords that you would like to have targeted. And so it's a much more you can, say hands-off than the nitty gritty of running your own a platform, but it was really interesting to try to be part of this classical California tech company and see that from the inside. It also got big so I think we were 70 when I started at Elance. And then, when it was Upwork, it was maybe 500. I think my true love lies around the smaller companies where it's bigger from thought action, and you see the impact of your work much faster.
Something we talk with so much about on the show is the value of small companies. And well, just knowing what you like and the environment that works best for you. You touched on the SEO front. I think, as we talk more and more about attribution in this episode, SEO and attribution that they go together like peanut butter and salty water. It just is such a hard combination to get right.
How many times in SEO land are you talking to an executive and your trying to explain like the value of SEO and you're like, hey, well, you know that dominating search rankings and owning thought leadership and the brand space that you have there. But then connecting those dots, I think, a lot of SEOs end up thinking attribution a lot because they want to really tie things to that revenue. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how your journey has brought you from SEO into the attribution?
Yes. It's like super critical spot on topic for attribution. And I think we also showed some of you, some of this stuff still when we pitched Dreamdata. The main attribution challenge is that there's so few things that we purchase the very first time we experienced it. I’d buy an ice cream on a hot summer day right away. But even just a pair of running shoes you’d go to a couple of sites. You'd maybe switch between your computer and your phone, et cetera. And if we’re then talking B2B, which that's what we address with Dreamdata, then we're also talking maybe multiple months, multiple stakeholders, even your teams has multiple touches with the customer as well. And then, very quickly it gets really complex.
Just before I go to kind of how we solve it, what we really can see across all our customers is that all the organic traffic works really well to start journeys, but they're so rarely the last step of the journey. So that's where you end up in this disconnect between all the value you actually create by driving a lot of search traffic to the website. But then the sales people is the ones that convert the traffic, and then they get all the reward for closing the deals. But the deals might never have gone there if you hadn't brought in all the traffic.
And, we go to this data-driven path where we want to see direct lines and businesses becoming so data-driven that we almost detach ourselves from thinking through the real marketing picture. You're right. You come in through SEO and then you download and nurture, you get ... | |||
| 21 Jun 2022 | 62: Ramli John: Writing the book on product-led onboarding | 00:42:46 | |
Hey folks, today we’re joined by Ramli John, one of my favorite marketers and someone I’ve admired and followed on Twitter for many years. Ramli got his start in marketing at PepsiCo as a Marketing Systems Analyst where he stayed for 4 years. After a co-founding stint Ramli moved to Toronto where started his freelancing career as a SaaS growth consultant. Along the way he also worked at a few different companies including SkyVerge which exited to GoDaddy. He also spent a few years teaching as a Marketing Instructor at big name spots like RED Academy, Centennial College and CXL Institute. He started what’s widely known as one of the top marketing podcasts on the planet, Growth Marketing Today and he’s one of the inspirations of our podcast here. He went on to join Product-Led - The leading community for PLG Pros founded by Wes Bush the famous author of Product-Led Growth. During his time there Ramli wrote his own book with Wes. It hit shelves last year: Product-Led Onboarding. I’ve read it twice and it’s been a huge career growth lever for me. Now he’s landed in what seems to be the perfect role, Director of Content at one of the top no-code onboarding tools in Appcues. Damn what a resume, what a journey, Ramli it’s an honor to have you. Questions and topics Ramli there’s a bunch of jumping off points here, I want to get into the podcast, the book and also the new gig but I’d love to start with an early career question. Early career at Pepsi and startup Podcast growth Teacher question On writing your first book PQL vs. PAI Key onboarding milestones
Appcues, 6 months in Happiness question --- Ramli’s links Twitter: https://twitter.com/ramlijohn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/ LinkedIn posts: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/recent-activity/shares/ Product-Led Onboarding book: https://productled.com/book/onboarding/ Appcues: https://www.appcues.com/ Growth Marketing Today: https://growthtoday.fm/ ✌️ -- | |||
| 05 Jan 2021 | 15: Lifecycle: A Martech Saga part 4: Picking the right MQL model | 00:27:44 | |
You once told me you don’t care about the tools. I remember when I started working with you, we talked about pardot and marketo and hubspot, and you said you’d use carrier pigeons and smoke signals if that’s all you had. We’re Martech geeks -- of course you’re going to say to deploy a lead scoring model -- but why is it important to imagine a universe without one? It’s important to understand things in their most basic form. The concept of abstraction in programming is instructive here - basically it means that we build upon the sophistication of the code that came before us to create simpler code. In other words, you don’t need to know binary to write javascript. Same goes for MQLS - we’ve accepted scoring as the definition of MQLs without always thinking it through. For me, an marketing qualified lead is a lead that marketing has qualified. When marketing qualifies a lead, it’s passed to sales, sales follows up with it, and you make more money. Exactly. We get stuck on the how and what too often. Why is this important? Marketing is casting the net -- they build personas, execute on strategy to fill the funnel, often even own the automation systems. Marketing also deals with leads at scale -- one to many communications. It makes a lot of sense organizationally that marketing helps filter leads to sales. By recentering on the why, we can now talk about the how and the what. Let’s start with the what: Marketing could define an MQL as any of the following:
You need a model that builds trust and keeps it. Ideally it provides some sort of feedback mechanism. Need to answer the question: which leads are best to pass to sales? A+ leads, should sales talk to them if they are going to convert already? Most common is numeric. Pros -> Super easy to implement, easy to maintain, easy to understand (and therefore trust). Cons -> Harder to extract insights from, a bit basic in some cases, and sometimes you want more sophistication. Data enrichment tools like Clearbit, not 100% match rate but help you figure out what matters, then you can ask that question instead of inferring it. Grading model: Two axes: Fit & Engagement (or whatever). Get your 1-4 and your A-D. Matrix to plot out where leads land. Lots of precision and predictability. Pros -> Precise, easy to understand, easier to extract insights. Cons -> Harder to implement, harder to train folks on, more technical stuff AI algorithm: Usually you plug in list of best customers, AI looks up common attributes and then sets up predictive model based on those attributes. Usually pretty black box. Pros -> Easy to set up, sophisticated, and uses latest tech. Cons -> Expensive, requires trust. Thanks for listening homies. If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for our finale, part 5, we'll give you a super secret link to the unpublished episode if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com. :) -- | |||
| 07 Sep 2021 | 50: How do you stay happy at work and balance home life? | 00:26:36 | |
HUGE thank you to all of our awesome guests. In celebration of our 50th episode, we're rounding up all the answers to the most important question we asked every single one of our guests: what advice do they have on how they've managed to balance everything life throws at them and how they stay happy and sane at work. This is our 50th episode. Most of our episodes were actually just the two of us, jamming on a topic. Sometimes we went deep in a technical topic like email deliverability or lifecycle. Sometimes we talked about the people skills, working in tech, working remote. 15 of our 50 episodes had guest interviews. We showcased martech folks from different roles and seniority levels. But for each of our guests, we finished by asking the same question: What advice do you have on how to balance everything life throws at you and how do you stay happy and sane at work? Our guests share their answers back to back, time stamps below: 02:00 - Lauren Sanborn (05: Happiness at the intersection of sales & marketing) 05:22 - Brian Leonard (07: Be friends with engineering with open source Martech) 06:16 - Nick Donaldson (10: Curiosity, learning & success in your MOPs career) 07:40 - Jonathan Simon (11: Do you still need a degree to have success in marketing?) 11:02 - Julie Beynon (17: Making marketing analytics not intimidating) 13:10 - Steffen Hedebrandt (19: Reaching B2B attribution nirvana) 14:40 - Naomi Liu (25: How to ace your first marketing job) 15:08 - Melissa Ledesma (26: Melissa Ledesma: Women of Martech) 16:45 - Erin Blaskie (27: Startup marketing, in-house vs freelance) 19:11 - Shannon McCluskey (37: Searching for remote martech pros) 20:37 - Pierce Ujjainwalla (39: Creativity in marketing is under attack) 22:33 - Manuela Barcenas (41: From first marketer to team manager) 24:38 - Roxanne Pepin (44: Startups and the ability to learn RevOps) 26:54 - Danica Bateman (46: A day in the life of a Marketing Automation Manager) 27:48 - Vladlena Mitskaniouk (47: Grow your marketing career one data mystery at a time)
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| 30 Mar 2021 | 27: Erin Blaskie: Startup marketing, in-house vs freelance | 00:48:36 | |
Today we are joined by the powerful Erin Blaskie. Erin is currently a fractional CMO advising startups and scaleups, currently working with Jamieson Law, Ridgebase, Heirlume and Staffy. Before going back to freelance, Erin spent 4 years leading marketing teams at Fellow, a SaaS platform for meeting productivity as well as L-SPARK, a SaaS accelerator. But Erin’s start in marketing goes further than that. in 2004 she launched a virtual assistant business (one of the firsts) and later pivoted that to a marketing agency where she worked with brands like Disney, Microsoft, Ford, she’s worked with Hollywood actors, authors and speakers helping them craft their brands. She runs a no fluff-tactical newsletter with 10k+ subscribers, she has a huge Twitter audience topping 36k. She’s a TEDx speaker, her writting’s been featured in Forbes, entrepreneur, adweek and the wall street journal. She’s also a post grad intructor, an entrepreneur mentor and a mental health advocate. Holly shit, Erin, how do you find time to appear on podcasts with all the stuff you have going on haha? Here are the questions our listeners submitted! Freelancing What do you wish someone would have prepared you for before starting your digital marketing career? I would especially love to learn her tips on setting expectations and boundaries with clients in her freelance/agency work.
All things being equal, do you think that as a freelancer, you can learn faster? more clients, more projects, more breadth of problems and tools. Startup in-house What are some of the biggest tactical marketing mistakes you see startups make? I say tactical because I think the de facto answer is based on not having a strategy in place. What are the best marketing strategies for early stage companies when budgets are sparse? Show notes | |||
| 18 Mar 2025 | 161: Angela Rueda: Meta’s Director of Martech on build vs buy, vendor selection and hybrid stacks | 01:03:53 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Rueda, Director of Business Martech at Meta. Summary: Angela walked into Meta's engineering-first culture, discovering a sprawling mess of DIY custom martech solutions, and leading the organization through a fundamental mindset shift about build vs. buy decisions. She brings us through the technical and emotional journey of aligning more than 150 stakeholders ultimately forcing them to embrace a hybrid build-and-buy approach during a pivotal merger. Angela shares an honest look at what it means to lead big changes at a company like Meta, showing what really works when you're trying to transform how marketing and technology work together. About Angela
Building custom marketing technology sounds like a tech leader's dream: unlimited resources, world-class engineers, and total control over the final product. Angela walked into Meta with stars in her eyes, ready to architect a marketing infrastructure that would reach 200 million global businesses. The mandate sparkled with possibility - create something truly custom, uniquely Meta, uniquely powerful. Then reality hit. Meta's growth had spawned a sprawling organism of marketing tools, each piece stitched onto the next as urgent needs arose. What looked like a blank canvas from the outside turned out to be a complex tapestry of tactical solutions, each thread woven tight to solve an immediate problem. The engineering team kept adding features: Custom targeting modules for specific campaigns For that first year, Angela doubled down on the in-house vision. Meta's engineering DNA made external tools feel almost taboo. The team kept building, feature by feature, convinced they could craft the perfect solution. You might recognize this mindset - when you're surrounded by brilliant engineers, buying off-the-shelf software feels like admitting defeat. A major organizational shift cracked the foundation of this thinking. Business marketing teams merged, exposing a stark reality: half the company used internal tools while the other half relied on third-party platforms. Maintaining multiple stacks drained resources and created confusion. The breaking point arrived organically - continue forcing an internal-only approach, or step back and reimagine the entire stack? This constraint sparked the creative breakthrough Angela had dreamed of, just not in the way she expected. The pressure to consolidate forced hard questions about build versus buy decisions. The team had to examine their assumptions about custom development and weigh them against business needs. That original blank canvas materialized after all, painted with the colors of experience rather than theory. What makes Meta's story feel universal is that enterprise teams everywhere build tech kingdoms in isolation, they’re all racing toward their own goals with blinders firmly in place. Marketing squads assembling custom tools and processes at breakneck speed, treating enterprise-wide alignment as a distant luxury and a future-team problem. Then all of a sudden, organizational shifts take place. Restructures, mergers, leadership overhauls… they generate enough force to crack these silos open. When the dust settles and processes collide, teams finally see the cost of their fragmented systems. Key takeaway: Build a hybrid Martech approach: identify core functions that need customization, integrate best-in-class tools for standard operations, and focus engineering resources on unique competitive advantages. Track implementation time and team satisfaction to measure impact.
Meta's engineering culture practically demanded they build everything in-house. You could feel it in every meeting: the subtle eye rolls when someone mentioned third-party tools, the reflexive reach for custom solutions, the collective pride in crafting bespoke technology. Their homegrown marketing stack embodied this philosophy, sprouting feature after feature until it required a small army of PhDs just to create basic audience segments. Angela walked into this technical labyrinth with a mandate to reach 200 million global businesses. The existing tools scattered across Meta's landscape told a story of rapid growth and tactical thinking: Data lived in isolated kingdoms, making it impossible to identify true marketable audiences Then came the organizational earthquake: a massive merger that exposed half the company running on internal tools while the other half relied on external platforms. The duplicate systems drained resources faster than a leaky pipeline. This crisis created a rare moment of organizational clarity, pushing Angela's team to step back and question their build-everything DNA. The evaluation process sparked intense emotions. Engineers who poured years into custom solutions defended their work with spreadsheets and scoring frameworks that mysteriously always ended in perfect ties. You could see the internal struggle written across faces in every meeting: let go of years of custom development or double down on the DIY approach? The breakthrough came through radical simplicity. Meta chose to build where they held unique advantages (their data foundation) and buy proven solutions for standard capabilities. This hybrid model gave both the engineering perfectionists and practical business stakeholders something to embrace. Key takeaway: Start with ruthless problem definition before touching tools. Map your unique challenges, build organizational alignment around those problems, then evaluate build versus buy decisions through that lens. Your best solution might combine internal strengths with external innovation, creating a practical path forward that serves both technical excellence and business reality.
Engineering pride runs deep at Meta. Their developers wield a particular swagger, architecting some of the world's most sophisticated social platforms. So when Angela's team questioned whether to keep building marketing tools in-house, the debates turned fierce. The war room crackled with strong opinions about resource allocation, privacy constraints, and the true cost of maintaining bespoke systems. The arguments for building centered around three thorny challenges: Privacy requirements demanded granular control over data handling Yet the buy advocates painted a compelling picture: Meta's elite engineers could focus on revenue-generating products instead of reinventing marketing wheels. Angela watched the back-and-forth intensify as both camps dug in their heels. One side... | |||
| 27 Jun 2023 | 77: Boris Jabes: Decoding the composable CDP, the future of data activation and AI in marketing | 00:53:15 | |
What’s up folks, today we’re extremely privileged to be joined by Boris Jabes, the Co-Founder & CEO at Census.
Boris's first venture was into password management, but it wasn't out of love for passwords. It stemmed from a frustration with the scattered nature of employee identities across numerous apps. Each login seemed to represent a different version of oneself. The solution? A first-of-its-kind enterprise-grade password management tool designed for teams, aimed at streamlining the login process for any office application. Boris describes this as a quest to create a federated version of oneself - a concept known as Single Sign-On (SSO). Behind the tech jargon, the aim was simple: to make people's lives easier by reducing the friction caused by hundreds of passwords. His journey then led to Census, a reverse ETL venture. Again, the core issue was fragmented identities, but this time, it was the customers' identities in question. Why were these identities inconsistent across different divisions within a company? Just as with the password management venture, Boris saw the need for a central place from which customer identities could be federated. He was addressing the same problem but from a different angle. Boris's focus has always been on alleviating the pain points created by disparate data. From password management to reverse ETL, he continually seeks to resolve identity disparities, a testament to the power of innovation that lies at the intersection of distinct yet interconnected problems.
It was when Boris's first startup was acquired that he truly felt the problem Census would later solve. Joining forces with LogMeIn, a larger company with a keen interest in their software and user base, illuminated a stark issue. The marketers and salespeople at LogMeIn wanted to engage with the users and cross-sell the software, but they struggled. The key issue? They didn't seem to have a clear understanding of what the users were doing. Despite the availability of tools to connect data, none seemed to coalesce the company around a single version of reality. The tools used by marketers were different from those used by salespeople. These fragmented solutions failed to bring everyone onto the same page, especially considering that product behavior was becoming an increasingly important driver. The seed for Census was thus sown. Boris and his team envisioned a solution that would work at scale, bridging the gap between different divisions and providing a unified view of customer data. The challenge was technical, but the ultimate goal went beyond that. They aimed to empower various stakeholders – marketers, salespeople, product teams, finance – to take action based on reliable, trustworthy data. Census was born out of the need to solve a real problem – to provide a single version of truth that would allow different divisions within a company to understand and act upon user behavior efficiently and effectively. This venture underlines Boris's ability to observe, understand, and respond to the intricate problems arising from fragmented data, paving the way for more streamlined operations and decision-making within organizations.
As we delve deeper into the realm of martech, there's no escaping the maze of terminology and definitions, especially when it comes to the concept of the Customer Data Platform (CDP). From a distance, it might seem like yet another acronym tossed into the complex landscape, but understanding it is essential. In Boris's view, the packaged CDP (or pack CDP) is a lineage of software specifically designed with marketers in mind, most often serving B2C companies (at least initially). But what does it really do? It performs three critical functions:
Whether it's channeling information into advertising platforms or feeding into an email or direct mail tool, a packaged CDP is designed to facilitate these processes. But remember, it's not just about the technical definition. It's about building tools that people find genuinely useful, solving real problems and creating value. A packaged CDP is more than just another piece of software. It's a testament to the evolving world of marketing technology and the efforts to streamline data management and utilization in the B2C sector. It stands as a symbol of how understanding data can help us build more efficient, more effective systems for connecting with customers.
Boris highlights the major shift in the martech landscape, specifically focusing on the evolution of customer data platforms (CDPs). When examining the traditional packaged CDP model, it's clear that these platforms often duplicate data from existing company databases, such as a data warehouse. However, this model assumes that all companies have a data warehouse, which is not always the case, especially for smaller startups. In recent years, there's been a considerable increase in companies investing in data warehouses or other forms of data platforms. These platforms, such as Google, Snowflake, Amazon, or Databricks, can store a massive amount of data and are used to answer a wide array of questions. Therefore, duplicating this data to solve problems seems counterproductive. With this in mind, Census was built differently. It was designed from first principles, focusing on giving marketers more trustworthy data without contributing to unnecessary data duplication. The tool connects directly to a company's existing data warehouse, eliminating the need to recreate a separate customer database. This, in turn, saves both the data and marketing teams a significant amount of time. This shift is part of a broader trend towards composable solutions. Composability, in this context, refers to a philosophy where components of a system are designed to work together seamlessly, fostering flexibility. Each piece of the system can be customized and int... | |||
| 12 Sep 2023 | 88: Tamara Gruzbarg: A hybrid approach to CDPs, white box predictive modeling and AI as a human in the loop system | 00:55:58 | |
What’s up folks, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Tamara Gruzbarg, VP Customer Strategy at ActionIQ – an enterprise Customer Data Platform. Summary: The discussion centered around the nuanced relationship between AI, marketing, and customer data platforms (CDPs). Tamara highlighted the excitement and limitations of AI, emphasizing the irreplaceable role of human creativity and business context. Her insights extended to the advancements in generative AI, the flexible approach of ActionIQ in dealing with CDPs, and the importance of aligning technology with an organization's strategy and capabilities. The conversation provided a rich exploration of the future of AI in marketing and the evolving landscape of CDPs, offering actionable insights that stress the need for human ingenuity and flexibility in today's market. Can AI Replace Everything a Marketer Does? Tamara eloquently pointed out that AI has the power to take over menial, repetitive tasks within marketing, thus automating and optimizing several functions. This transition, she noted, will require professionals to acquire new skills to effectively partner with AI, often referred to as "Gen AI." She further illuminated the philosophy of ActionIQ, where AI is seen as a "human in the loop" system. In other words, AI can assist with content generation, but it still needs human guidance. This insight reflects the company's belief that AI doesn't pull ideas out of thin air; it requires a marketer's creativity, tone of voice, and style to guide its output. Without this human collaboration, marketing initiatives risk becoming monotonous and less effective. Using the widely accepted phrase "we need to cut through the noise," Tamara argued that it's even more critical to have a human in the loop with systems like ChatGPT to ensure uniqueness and effectiveness in marketing strategies. In her thoughtful and informed response, Tamara envisioned AI as an extension of existing tools rather than a replacement. She reinforced that building robust models for predictions such as conversion or churn rates necessitates a strong grasp of business context and data structure, something only humans can provide. Takeaway: AI's role in marketing is neither an all-encompassing replacement nor a threat to creative and strategic aspects. Instead, Tamara sees it as a tool for enhancing productivity by automating repetitive tasks and acting as an assistant in content creation. Its success, however, relies on human intelligence and intuition to guide it, maintaining the unique flavor and effectiveness of marketing initiatives. The human element is not only vital but irreplaceable, especially when it comes to cutting through the noise in today's competitive landscape. Machine Learning and Personalized Messaging She acknowledged the promising nature of the area, reflecting on how the journey began with email service providers (ESPs) optimizing send times to maximize email open rates. This has evolved to include subject line testing, allowing a winning version to reach a larger audience. These components, Tamara explained, are part of a more comprehensive journey towards achieving self-optimizing customer experiences. With the advancements in generative AI, it's now possible to couple micro-segments with the dynamic capabilities of language models. Tamara finds this intersection particularly exciting, yet she maintains a skeptical stance regarding the idea of fully self-optimized journeys. Her perspective as a "human in the loop" proponent leads her to foresee the near to medium future as one where businesses might perceive the journey as self-optimizing, but human involvement will still be essential. Vendors promising self-optimization will require considerable human effort to ensure that these AI-driven journeys not only function properly but also drive the business forward. The allure of using AI to personalize messaging and orchestrating the best message at the perfect time may be strong, but Tamara's insights suggest that we are still on a path where human insight and input are invaluable. Takeaway: The intersection of AI and marketing is an exciting area that promises innovations in self-optimizing campaigns. However, as Tamara explains, the road to complete automation is still a work in progress, and human involvement remains crucial. The blend of AI with human insight can create powerful tools, but reliance solely on technology may not yet be the complete solution for personalized customer experiences. The Synergy of Human Intelligence and Automation in Marketing Campaigns The process outlined from another episode with Wyatt Bales begins with humans playing an indispensable role. They're responsible for the creative and strategic aspects, defining the campaign's goals, identifying the ideal journey for the user, and initiating the automation process by creating a ticket in a project management tool. This triggers a generative AI tool, producing drafts that the human team reviews and refines. Tamara highlights the value in this synergy, with the human touch being essential in understanding the nuances of the campaign and reviewing AI-generated content. She firmly believes in automating tasks such as data uploading and report distribution but maintains that the human aspect is irreplaceable in areas that require critical thinking and strategic vision. She further relates this perspective to her own career experience, managing what she terms "human CDP's." Leading teams of highly skilled data professionals, she witnessed firsthand how manual handling of tasks that could be automated often limited their potential. This realization fueled her enthusiasm for the CDP space and led her to her current position. In her view, automation in marketing shouldn't be about completely replacing human roles but rather enhancing them. By automating mundane and repetitive tasks, skilled professionals can focus on more complex, valuable activities that machines can't replicate. Her experience in the field reinforces the belief that the combination of automation with human insight creates a more efficient and focused approach to marketing. Takeaway: Tamara's insights provide a balanced view of the integration of human intelligence and automation in the marketing landscape. By embracing automation for specific tasks, human professionals can focus on strategic and creative roles, driving innovation, and maximizing efficiency. The fusion of human expertise with automation isn't about replacement but rather collaboration, leading to more effective and personalized marketing campaigns. The Hybrid Approach to Customer Data Platforms in ActionIQ | |||
| 29 Jun 2021 | 40: Sustainable growth marketing experimentation | 00:27:52 | |
Experimentation lives at the center of growth marketing and it’s one of the best ways to explain how marketing combines art and science. Too much of today’s marketing is about attribution and data and reporting. We know that’s part of experimentation obviously, tracking lift on certain metrics. But the art side is really the idea generation part of experimentation. Trying things that not a lot of other folks are doing, going against the grain, trying crazy ideas. Isn't that what marketing is all about? Today’s main takeaway is: The most important part of designing experiments isn’t to have a single metric in mind or a rock solid hypothesis. It’s to create a knowledge base of insights from past experiments that everyone on your team can learn from. That’s what we’re calling sustainable experimentation. Sangram Vajre talks about 3 kinds of superpowers in marketing leaders: The doer; They make sure the world is running today in the best way possible. They get stuff done. People count on them to be operational. The driver; They can push projects through and assist with the process of securing buy-in from internal – and sometimes external – stakeholders. The dreamer; They are forward-thinkers who can help shake things up and come up with new suggestions. They spend time imagining the world we want to live in, the future. Bunch of ideas, but not always ability to focus and move those along. I’m wholeheartedly a dreamer. I spend my time digesting information, taking notes of cool ideas and keeping a swipe file of things to try. I don’t see growth marketers as scientists experimenting in a lab… I think of us as early adopters. We’ve talked about channel fatigue before and how eventually marketers ruin every new strategy and everything has diminishing returns. That’s why experimenting with new channels, new ideas is so so important. How to design an experiment
Double the conversion rate of free trials to paid in the first 30 days from 2% to 4%. Next up is the hypothesis. Assumptions that back up your hypotheses For our free trial conversion rate objective for example, it’s important to have a complete understanding of user needs. In the free trial part of the funnel, users are still in the discover and try phase of their experience with your product. So in your hypothesis doc you could you can share supporting data that shows free trial users are more likely to convert to paid users if they have successfully experienced a series of key moments of delight. Hypothesis example Implementation I also encourage folks to take a cohort approach to implementation. We split half the audience into a control group and a test group. The control group would continue to receive the current onboarding email series and the test group would be part of the experiment. In our example, we would split all signups into a test group and control group. The control group receives the current time based emails and our test group receives the new trigger behaviour emails in our experiment, and we compare conversion rates as well as monitor other metrics like product behaviours. Sharing insights across your team I’ve used VWO in my past and love how they use some cool collaboration features. You can log observations from past experiments or data you’ve uncovered in other tools and log them into VWO. Eventually you could have a miny filterable db of observations that folks on your team can prioritize or sift through. These observations lead to hypotheses which are also a unique object in VWO. Before launching an experiment you need to first create a hypothesis, then link it to your experiment. After your experiment has run its course, the last object in VWO is Learnings, or insights. This is building a knowledge base of learnings from tests you’ve run so everyone is in the know. When you think of ideas in your company they all come and are stored in different places, word docs, project management backlogs, emails… VWO adds a bit of structure to everything that touches experimentation. ✌️ -- | |||
| 22 Feb 2023 | 66: A guide to data models and dynamic dashboards for marketers | 00:26:18 | |
What’s up everyone? Today is a bit of a follow-up on the previous episode about building dashboards, check that one out first if you haven’t already. Today we’re taking this a step further and talking about data models and the limits of building dashboards. Here’s a typical stance on dashboard design: It is best to focus on the ideal scenario, and worry about the practicalities of implementation later, Or “let the ops team worry about that” as they call it. Haha yeah… This approach may seem appealing at first, as it allows designers to imagine and create without constraints. However, as a marketing operations person, I’m not a fan of this. Here’s today’s main takeaway: I believe that understanding how a dashboard is powered, and having a sense of what is possible and what is not, is a crucial differentiator. Too often, I have seen dashboard projects built in a vacuum, disconnected from the reality of the data and the systems that support them. In these cases, valuable time and resources are wasted building an idealistic dashboard that cannot be implemented or used effectively. Today we’re going to be breaking down how you can level up your knowledge about data models or the capabilities and limitations of the data and the systems that support the dashboard, and designing solutions that are feasible and effective. By understanding these constraints, designers and marketers can create dashboards that are not only beautiful and engaging, but also practical and useful. I feel like this topic could get hairy pretty fast, so let's break down some definitions for the listeners. Da hell is a data model, let’s start there. What’s a data model? Data modeling is a way to organize and structure data from different sources in a consistent and useful way. It helps to make data more accessible and organized, so it can be easily analyzed and interpreted. Gimme a non marketing example, how would you explain this to your mom? Example: A simple example of a data model is a phone directory. The data model for a phone directory would include information such as the names and contact information of individuals, as well as the relationships between them (e.g. family members, colleagues, friends). By organizing this information in a consistent and structured way, the phone directory can be used to easily look up and contact individuals. This data model helps to make the information more accessible and useful. Okay what about a marketing example, that was too simple. I’ll go with my bread and butter, Email marketing example: One example of a data model for email marketing might include information about the email campaigns that have been sent to different segments of your audience. This data model might include details such as
For example, the data model might show that certain subject lines or content types don’t generate as many opens as some emails but they perform better at driving clicks and conversions, and the email marketing team can use this information to optimize their future campaigns. So why should marketers care about this? It’s to prevent shiny object syndrome and understanding where the numbers are coming from but also give you the ability to customize your dashboard. Exactly. A data model is the first step in allowing you to have a dynamic/interactive dashboard. Describe an interactive dashboard in simple terms Describe an interactive dashboard in simple terms for the listeners. It’s being able to interact with the charts and elements to analyze different parts of your dashboard, for example; filtering certain elements and changing date ranges. This is what sets them apart from reports. For me, I see it as a personal assistant of sorts. An interactive dashboard allows you to easily filter, slice, and drill down into the data, revealing insights and patterns that might otherwise be hidden. Unlike a static dashboard or report, which shows the same view for everyone, an interactive dashboard lets different users explore the data in their own unique ways. What’s a simple example that most folks would understand? Imagine a sales manager who needs to understand the performance of her team across different regions and product lines. With a static dashboard or report, she would see the same view for everyone, with no ability to filter or drill down into the data. But with an interactive dashboard, she can easily select the regions, the individual reps and product lines that she is interested in, and see the data that is most relevant to her. She can even save her custom views, and share them with her team, so they can all see the data in the way that is most useful to them. Basically, a dynamic dashboard allows you to go from metric reporting to data exploration and analysis. In episode 64 we talked about GA4 so I have a GA example here. Example: Now imagine that, instead of a static GA dashboard, your marketing team has built a dynamic lifecycle dashboard that is powered by a data model. This dashboard allows you to filter the metrics by user attributes or campaign events, so you can see the data that is most relevant to you. For example, if you want to see how your email campaigns are performing, you can easily filter the metrics by channel. Or, if you want to see the impact of in-app messages, you can filter the metrics by that attribute. And, because the dashboard is dynamic and interactive, you can explore and analyze the data in your own way, without being limited by the pre-defined views of a static dashboard. Yeah. So where does the data model fits into this? Well the data model is what allows you to have a dynamic dashboard, especially when it comes to combining data from different sources. So data source > data model > dashboard? Is that the hierarchy? Yeah I think that’s fair.
So here’s a practical example:
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| 13 Jun 2023 | 75: Mike Rizzo: Building resilient Marketing Ops through community | 00:46:42 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of chatting with Mike Rizzo, you’ll be hard pressed to find someone who’s done as much for the marketing Ops community.
MO Pros Can you shine a light on everything that is MO Pros these days and is the revenue you are generating from it just re-invested into the community and paying your costs? What’s stopping you from going all-in on this project? "No Bullsh*t Demo" program Walk us through how you got this idea and if you’re seeing this more in other communities?
I’ll give you the floor to pitch the conference to the audience. Why is this going to be different from other events we’ve been to? You know those events that cost a pretty penny only to get disappointed by talks and come back to your company with little insights and a few new business cards. What’s a certified marketing ops pro? You got a lot of interesting comments on your post. One thing I was surprised that no one commented about is how wildly different the role of MOps is at a startup as a 1 person MOPs team doing everything under the sun vs. at a big 50+ MOps team at a massive enterprise company. I’ve seen this first hand. Different skills and different types of humans… maybe there’s a cert for startup/smb/enterprise marketing ops pro Based on the feedback you got, what’s your current thoughts on this, what’s a certified marketing ops pro? AI not replacing any marketers any time soon I don’t think you’d describe yourself as an AI critic or detractor but you’ve said in a few places that you don’t think AI will be replacing any marketing jobs any time soon. I think the key thing here is that you’re using the term “anytime soon” haha… that could be 3 months like it could be 5 years so you’re saving yourself from potential ridicule by not giving a fixed definition on your time horizon. But maybe we can spend a bit of time here because this is something we don’t totally agree on. AI not replacing community-focused roles What advice would you have for listeners who don’t have any or little experience with community and events to get some experience and potentially explore this area of speciality? Immersive, personalized events of the future One that’s thrown around a lot – and likely only going to get even crazier with Apple’s Vision Pro announcement – is VR and metaverse applications, curious what your thoughts are on: Immersive, personalized events. A future that involves more gamification and VR activations. Starting a fractional business Last question — | |||
| 04 Jul 2023 | 78: Juan Mendoza: The ethics of generative AI, trust, transparency and the threat of dehumanization | 00:58:25 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of chatting with the profoundly eloquent Juan Mendoza.
About Juan
The OpenAI Approach: Laser-Focus and High-Quality Language Models Juan underscored the significance of OpenAI’s niche focus and dedication to developing large-scale language models. Unlike big tech giants—Google, Amazon, Meta and others—who spread their resources and attention over various types of AI technologies, OpenAI chose a distinct path. They concentrated all their efforts on building transformative generative models like GPT-3 and GPT-4, which set the groundwork for the success of ChatGPT. Juan suggested that OpenAI’s edge lies in their extreme focus, patience, and funding. Established as a Silicon Valley tech company, OpenAI was backed by tech tycoons like Elon Musk and Microsoft, as well as some of the world’s largest venture capital firms. However, OpenAI’s goal differed. They weren’t trying to distribute AI across various services and products. Instead, they strived to create something unique and powerful—a tool that could manipulate language with an unprecedented level of precision. Juan further highlighted how OpenAI’s technology feels “magical” compared to competitors. For instance, Google’s BERT, although an impressive model, doesn’t meet the same level of accuracy as ChatGPT. Moreover, it ‘hallucinates’—generates incorrect or nonsensical outputs—significantly more often than ChatGPT. Juan also reminded us of the chatbot craze of 2016, which, despite the hype, resulted in less-than-stellar customer experiences. Fast forward to today, the launch of GPT-based models has reinvigorated the chatbot space, breathing new life into the industry. The key difference? An AI agent that can actually provide intelligent, useful responses. Takeaway: OpenAI’s specific concentration on creating large, high-quality language models, backed by extreme patience and funding, was pivotal in their success story. Their dedication to a niche allowed them to develop an AI that is more accurate and less likely to hallucinate than its competitors. This focus transformed the realm of chat interfaces, redefining the future of AI agents and encouraging a fresh wave of startups to build on this advanced technology. The Adoption Race: Comparing ChatGPT and Snapchat’s AI Tools Juan’s analysis of the rapid spread of ChatGPT brought fascinating insights. He cited how ChatGPT became one of the fastest-growing apps globally, reaching a million users in merely five days. This impressive rate outpaced even Instagram and TikTok’s growth, both of which took weeks to months to reach the same number of users. He attributed this meteoric rise to the simple yet brilliant user experience, which only required users to create an account and start chatting. However, Juan posed an interesting counter-argument, comparing ChatGPT’s growth with the newly launched AI tool by Snapchat—Snap AI. Despite being on the market for only two months, Snap AI already boasts 125 million users and over 10 billion messages sent. It reached 100 million users faster than ChatGPT, achieving the feat in just two months compared to ChatGPT’s four to five months. Juan speculated on the factors driving Snap AI’s rapid growth, posing two possibilities. One might be the timing—Snap AI could be riding the wave of excitement and acceptance generated by GPT-based technology. Another potential factor could be a generational shift, with younger users flocking to the more AI-enhanced environments provided by platforms like Snapchat. Takeaway: While ChatGPT has been a massive success, becoming one of the fastest-growing apps globally, other AI tools, like Snap AI, are rising quickly in the adoption race. The rapid growth of these platforms may be due to a combination of riding the AI hype cycle and a generational shift towards AI-enhanced environments. It is a reminder that, in the ever-evolving AI space, being first to market doesn’t always mean you’ll be the fastest-growing or most widely adopted solution. The Metaverse, AI and the Hype Cycle: A Critical Analysis Juan expressed his concerns about the hype cycle surrounding emerging technologies like AI, the metaverse, and web 3.0. He opined that such hype cycles often lead to exhaustion, especially among senior individuals who are tired of constant pitches for the “next big thing.” Juan cited an example where he was at a conference and representatives from Meta and an advertising agency were zealously promoting the metaverse. According to him, they were pushing marketers to prepare for the metaverse, without critically analyzing why it should be included in their marketing strategies in the first place. Juan also expressed disappointment in certain consultancy companies for their uncritical acceptance of Mark Zuckerberg’s vision for the metaverse. McKinsey, Accenture, and Bloomberg were among those criticized by Juan for their generous predictions of the metaverse’s economic impact, without rigorous analysis of the feasibility and practical implementation of this new trend. Contrasting this with the iPhone, Juan pointed out that it took five years for the iPhone to reach mass consumer market penetration, despite it being recognized as one of the most significant shifts in consumer experiences, software development, and mobile technology. Thus, according to Juan, hype without actual products often... | |||
| 12 Apr 2022 | 52: Corey Haines: Writing the book on startup marketing | 00:49:17 | |
What’s up everyone! Today we have a super special guest on the show, this interview is more than 12 months in the making – You probably already follow him on Twitter – I’ve personally learned a bunch from him and know you’re going to get a lot of value from our conversation today. Today we’re joined by Corey Haines.
Most importantly, Corey’s all-round great dude with a world class beard. Corey, we’re grateful to have you on the show – thanks for taking the time.
How has the journey been 1.5 years later? Do you know where you’re going yet? Yeah. Oh, man. The last year has been a whirlwind. I guess it's almost been like a year and a half now since I left. The North Star guiding goal has been to get into SaaS myself, start a SaaS company, maybe even a couple of products, and just have a small portfolio of bets and multiple things going on at once and see where they all kind of take me. I knew that doing that with a full time job is pretty hard, especially when I didn't want to step on your toes at Bearmetrics since we sold other SaaS startups. So I didn't want to build something that ended up competing with one of our customers. So I just kind of knew, like, that wasn't really an option for me. I didn't want to get another job and then start working on those side projects as well. But also, I wasn't really even close to building anything quite yet anyways. But I just wanted to kind of pull the trigger and jump and strap onto the rocketship, get into space. And then I could figure out where I was going from there. And on a personal level, very, very challenging. And like a lot of learning on hey, here's how to manage cash flow for all the different kinds of feasts and family cycles of freelancing and consulting. And just like knowing where to kind of find money and all the different revenue streams that you have when you're on your own, you don't have a paycheck really coming through the door. From a time management perspective, I've really learned how to be super ruthless with my time. I would say for the first four or five months I imagined once I left, I was like, I'm going to be free. I have so much time, I'm just going to get so much done. All these things are on my list. And then I didn't get anything done for like four months. I was like, what is happening? And because I had so many different meetings, so many admin things. I was busy doing emails, I was trying to chip away at small things here and there, but I was never really moving the ball forward in any one direction. And so I learned to be really ruthless. Now I do most of my meetings, like 95% of my meetings on Wednesdays. The rest of the week is completely wide open and I set what I want to get done, and I get those things done. And sometimes I work late, sometimes I work early. But you have to be really ruthless. It's been a great learning experience because really through the startups that I've worked for, consulting, advising, freelancing. Now I’m basically the marketing lead for Savvy Cal as well. So that's kind of helped bring back some stability in my life. And I see them all as just kind of practice rounds and getting in the reps and sets for learning how to build and grow a SaaS startup for when I want to do that for myself and for my own, especially the last year and a half, it's been like an invaluable learning lesson. Bootstrapping SaaS is really hard. You have to put yourself in the right position. Honestly, I wouldn't say that going the VC route is easier because I think raising money is really, really hard and it's a grind. And once you're on that track, there's a lot of expectations and it's a whole different game. But in the early days, it's easier because you have money, you pay yourself a paycheck. You hire the people to work with you. Bootstrapping is not easy. And so I would count this last year and a half as a part of my bootstrapping journey for building SaaS because it's all the work you have to do in order to be able to be financially stable, to put your time on something else completely without your whole world kind of exploding and going broke or, like, maxing out your credit cards. So I'm doing the best that I can, but I think I’m doing a pretty okay job so far.
One thing I want to ask about – you kind of mention the various different projects you're working on, like the idea of having multiple eggs in different baskets. What is the appeal of that for your personality? And how do you manage that as you're pushing these projects forward? I think that it's not necessarily, like, shiny object syndrome. I think that's what a lot of people conflate with having a lot of projects. You start one thing and then jump to the next one before you really kind of see the potential of it. I'm not really like that. It's more that I'm just mega impatient, and I just want to see all these things exist, and I want to do them and I'll do them all at once. My life is kind of, like, chaos sometimes. That's also why I leave four days out of the week completely wide open to get a lot of work-work done. I just want to see those things exist. I just want to work on them. I'm kind of a yes person and where I want to have my cake and eat it too. I just don't really like compromising and leaving something for later. So that's more the thought and the spirit behind multiple things. It's not really diversifying my income and multiple revenue streams and millionaires have seven sources of income. It's more just like, I want to work on all those things. I think they're fun. I want to see them exist, and I don't want to do them sequentially. I want to do them currently.
So, in-house, freelance, consultant, entrepreneur… Now you're getting a taste of all of them at the same time. Maybe someone in the audience right now is kind of thinking to themselves, I want to hire this Corey Haines guy that maybe this is not likely to happen… You possibly get a lot of offers to go back in-house. What would it take to get you back in-house? Or how would you design your ideal in-house role? Or scrap the question completely and tell me why the entrepreneur journey is the only way to go. Okay, well, I'll give you a Humans of Martech exclusive, because I haven't talked about this really anywhere else. So for last year, I've been working with someone who we were going to build SaaS together, and it's sort of like that was like the main thing. I'm putting most of my eggs in this basket. Long term, I want to work with this person. Then it turned out, his other businesses became too successful to really be able to step away from it even part time. So basically it came to a point where like, hey, we're good friends. We would love to do this, but it's just like not going to happen. It's just not realistic for this stage of our lives. That's a huge bummer because I was kind of j... | |||
| 04 May 2021 | 32: Is the future of Martech no-code? | 00:23:08 | |
We're going to argue two main points:
Is marketing hijacking another development trend and bending it to our own purposes? Is this an attempt to fit in with the cool kids by being part of a trend?
What does no-code really mean? Have you ever been half way through building something, a new campaign, a landing page you’re really excited about... but you hit a technical hiccup. “Oooh, might need a script for that” or “Damn, if only I could code”. As marketers, we’ve all felt this roadblock. We had a full episode dedicated to this-- episode #24: why marketers should learn to code. No-code is not using that excuse. Can’t code? Don’t know how to build scripts? No problem, there’s a no-code solution for that. Is Canva a no-code tool? Did you use code to create images in Photoshop or Illustrator? This is what tripped me up in the beginning — but Canva is one of the hottest tools today and it’s absolutely considered in the same breath as other no-code tools. While your typical definition of no-code would look at the ability to create software applications with a user interface, I’d argue that marketing’s use of no-code is a bit looser. I’d define a no-code solution as one that lowers the barrier entry to the point that you only need to use a user interface to complete your objective. No way am I going into photoshop - someone tried to teach me photoshop before and it was terrible. I’m not layering stuff — but Canva, I can get something good enough in minutes. These are pretty murky waters for us to be wading into — but such is this fascinating trend. So there's a cool difference between tools to build products and tools to sell products and run companies.
Example, Convertkit is no-code email marketing tool, unless you know css/html and you can totally customize things behind the scenes. Is Convertkit a no-code tool to sell a product/martech or is it building a product? Convertkit is is more than just an email marketing tool, it’s what newsletter creators use to build an audience and connect with fans, it’s an email designer, a landing page builder, a form builder and they are just diving into ecommerce. Isn’t every marketing tool a no-code tool? I’ve been using Marketo or HubSpot my entire career - turns out I’ve been using no-code tools my entire. But before I start congratulating myself on being on the cutting edge of this trend, I think it’s important we really sharpen our focus here. No code isn’t about using user-interfaces to accomplish a job — I think in the marketing context it’s about breaking the dependency on technical experts as well as subject matter experts. The idea of Canva as a graphic design tool may drive some designers crazy — but it’s borne out of a marketer’s need to get good enough now and not perfection later. I love this idea of breaking the dependency on technical and subject matter experts. This has been fascinating to watch in the indie maker community. Some call this the creator economy. Think there’s a lot of newsletters and podcasts already? Think again. Worldwide pandemics have accelerated remote work but they also motivated millions of people to become creators. More and more writers, teachers, film makers, photographers, artists all go DTC-- direct to consumer. Categories:
The no-code category needs to be narrower to be relevant. I see lists all the time saying that tools like Slack or HubSpot are no-code. They are awesome tools — but no marketer is coding databases and setting up scripts to send our instant messages or emails — no developer either for that matter. Instead, to be relevant, no code martech tools need to replace or substitute the need for technical or subject matter expertise. Is no-code anti-code? The no-code movement is borrowed from development and is most certainly not anti-code. In fact, the no-code movement could be said to be pro-code! In development land, the idea of no code is to remove redundant and repetitive tasks from the coding process. For example, if you’re application requires online payment, you don’t want to get bogged down coding an payment system from scratch. You’d just plug into Zuora or Stripe. No-code is about reusing components that solve common problems so you can focus your development efforts on your secret sauce. I get a sense sometimes from marketers that we mix this up — no-code isn’t anti-code! You need code to build to build these tools. Developers don’t worry about no-code taking their jobs — in fact, most I’ve talked to love them because they can focus on writing dope code instead of solving redundant problems. Is marketing hijacking a development trend? Marketing loves technology. The CMOs budget has grown exponentially in the past 10 years, and this trend continues. The rise of Revenue Operations puts a mission behind all this software — and imbues those operational activities with a mission — to enable revenue generation. These twin trends supercharge marketing when it comes to getting exposed to new products and technologies. Naturally, marketing has picked up on the no-code trend and the question is whether this really applies. Is marketing hijacking a development trend? This is an interesting question. As someone who has dedicated a lot of time to learning to code, at first I felt that — yes, marketing is borrowing a buzz word so we could fit in with the cool kids at the lunch table. I’ve been digging in a lot deeper on this, though, and I’ve refined my perspective. I believe the no-code trend absolutely applies to marketing. The future of no-code Martech is definitely heading into the no-code waters. I don’t think it’s a transformative force per se, but rather a rapid evolution of applications to make those jobs to be done easier, faster, and better. I don’t think folks working near marketing need to be worried -- marketers want to spin up a landing page with a form almost as fast as they want to tear it down and rebuild it. I think the benefit of no-code to experts who support marketers is they’ll work on more interesting, nuanced projects. Don’t build a landing page -- let’s build a custom product page or home page. I do think one potential downfall is that quality may drop in some areas. You can’t replace a great graphic designer with Canva -- the skills required to do this work are still important and are the difference between an Apple-esque brand and your friend’s yoga studio. But that’s the point -- it allows all of us the opportunity to build and sell our stuff on the internet. Even advanced no-code martech will still r... | |||
| 28 Nov 2023 | 99: Striking a balance: Sustaining happiness and success in work and life | 00:47:06 | |
What’s up folks, if you follow the show you know that we wrap up each conversation by delving into how our guests manage to juggle their personal and professional lives while maintaining their well-being and career success. Our most popular episode continues to be our compilation of insights on this very topic. Due to its popularity, we've decided to revisit this format and bring you a fresh perspective with new voices and reflections. I’ve categorized all 23 of our guests’ answers into 7 categories:
Main takeaway: Balance is a continuous journey rather than a final destination, involving passion alignment, personal recharging, and appreciation of life's path, including those who accompany us along the way. And never underestimate the power of a well-timed 'no' to maintain balance and propel your journey forward. Igniting Passion and Finding Meaningful Work Harnessing Passion for Professional and Personal Fulfillment https://humansofmartech.com/2023/09/26/90-lucie-de-antoni-startup-alchemy-attribution/ The key to a fulfilling life, Lucie posits, is to weave one's passions into the fabric of their daily lives, both in personal and professional realms. While the notion might echo familiar sentiments, for her, it serves as the engine of daily motivation. This approach isn't about blindly following joy; it involves critical reflection and the transformation of lackluster experiences into positive ones. Lucie treats her engagement with AI not just as a job but as an integral part of her life's canvas, indicating a seamless integration of work with personal interests. This blend is increasingly rare in a world that often dichotomizes professional and personal life. Her strategy includes a pragmatic approach to time management, a learned skill that she has honed over her career. Lucie now exercises discernment in her work, asking whether late hours are truly necessary or if they encroach upon her personal time. Her journey towards finding balance has been iterative, a process marked by growth and the ability to prioritize more effectively than she could just months before. Lucie attributes part of this evolution to the people she surrounds herself with, suggesting that a supportive network can significantly influence one's ability to maintain equilibrium. Building a career that resonates with one's values is not without its challenges. Lucie acknowledges that recognizing one's strengths and facing obstacles head-on is essential, yet she also stresses the importance of choice. It's about alignment—ensuring that professional actions and personal values are in concert. Key Takeaway: True happiness emerges from the intersection of passion, self-reflection, and the prudent management of one's time and choices. Lucie’s experience underlines the importance of integrating personal passions with professional endeavors, the power of a supportive network, and the continuous journey towards balancing various aspects of life. In essence, fulfillment is about doing what you love, prioritizing what matters, and sometimes, having the wisdom to say no. Embracing the Momentum of Passionate Work https://humansofmartech.com/2023/09/05/87-michael-katz-the-evolution-of-packaged-cdps/ At the heart of a fulfilling life, according to MK, is the enjoyment of one's endeavors. He prioritizes his roles not by societal standards, but by personal significance, with fatherhood at the pinnacle. His career, while varied and demanding, trails behind his family in his list of priorities. This clear hierarchy is the cornerstone of his contentment, allowing him to approach his other roles with a grounded perspective. MK's experience has taught him that the objective isn't merely to become adept at riding the rollercoaster of entrepreneurship but to reach a state where the highs and lows no longer dictate his emotional landscape. The concept of equanimity emerges as a desired state—one where external circumstances lose their grip on one’s inner peace. This is not an attitude of disengagement, but rather a refined approach to emotional investment in the business world. His philosophy is crystallized in a dinner conversation with a friend, echoing Lupe Fiasco's words. The common adage of pursuing happiness is, in his view, a misguided one. Instead, MK posits that the pursuit itself ought to be happiness. Finding joy, meaning, and growth in one's work is the real measure of whether one is on the right path. It's a subtle but profound shift from happiness as a goal to happiness as the journey. MK gauges his alignment with his work through his emotions—the excitement of starting a new week and the anxious drive at the week's end, fearing time was not maximized. The day these feelings invert is the day he’ll reconsider his commitments. This barometer of passion versus productivity serves as his compass, keeping him engaged in work that fuels rather than drains him. Key Takeaway: Defining success on your own terms involves identifying what brings you intrinsic joy and pursuing it with relentless passion. MK’s reflections remind us that true happiness in our professional lives is achieved when we relish the journey itself, not just the milestones along the way. When work aligns with our values and excites us consistently, we find ourselves exactly where we need to be. Harnessing Passion as the Antidote to Burnout Juan draws his inspiration from an unconventional yet stirring source—Steve Irwin, the iconic Crocodile Hunter. Irwin's fervent commitment to wildlife conservation becomes a beacon for Juan, illustrating how unwavering passion can fuel both happiness and success. Like Irwin, Juan is energized by a mission that transcends mere occupation; for him, it's about making sense of the tangled web of technology and marketing, aiming to illuminate paths for others within this intricate maze. Juan's dedication to his work keeps him up into the wee hours, not out of obligation but from a deep-seated enthusiasm for discovery and education. This zeal parallels Irwin's approach, who was not merely a television personality but a fervent educator and conservationist. Juan recognizes that to be successful and fulfilled, one must be driven by a cause that ignites a “red hot passion,” much like the one that powered Irwin's every action. The notion that such passion is “kryptonite to burnout” encapsulates Juan's philosophy. It's this intensity that sustains him, allowing for extended work hours without the usual fatigue. However, he doesn’t neglect the fundamentals—adequate sleep, healthy eating, exercise, and maintaining relationships. These are the building blocks that support the demands of a passiona... | |||
| 03 Dec 2024 | 148: Stephen Stouffer: Understanding AI's Role in Customer Journeys and Messaging | 00:50:50 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Stephen Stouffer, Director of Automation Solutions at Tray.ai and the first ever returning guest. We had Stephen on earlier in the year in episode 112 where we unpacked the practical wonders of combining AI tools with iPaaS solutions. Summary: AI can transform your marketing without overwhelming you. Start with one use case. Watch the results, and go from there. You don’t need to master data science to add AI value, but you need to be willing to experiment, keep what works, and let the tech do the heavy lifting.
Customer journey mapping, as Stephen puts it, is best approached as a clear, structured framework. For marketers, this often starts by examining the visitor's first few seconds on a website. Stephen’s “three, five, seven rule” is a useful guide: three seconds to capture attention, five to build engagement, and seven to prompt action. Reviewing homepage or landing page performance through this lens keeps the focus on essentials. Are calls-to-action (CTAs) clear and accessible? Does the page guide users toward the intended outcome effectively? Stephen further notes the importance of every element “above the fold.” Content here needs to be concise, visually appealing, and should naturally lead users to the next step. A well-placed CTA, such as a prominent button, encourages forward motion, while a hidden or confusing one can derail the journey. Each interaction should be straightforward and intuitive. Beyond landing pages, Stephen highlights the journey before a visitor even arrives. Campaign managers, for instance, should ensure that ad copy and visuals align with the landing page, creating a smooth transition from ad to action. Consistency here reduces friction and keeps the experience cohesive. For advanced mapping, Stephen recommends storyboarding different customer personas and their digital pathways. By tuning each stage to fit these profiles, marketers can craft a journey that feels relevant and trustworthy, engaging each segment from the very first interaction. Key takeaway: Use the "three, five, seven rule" to evaluate each customer touchpoint on your homepage or landing pages. This approach helps ensure your content captures attention, fosters engagement, and prompts action—all within a few seconds. AI’s Role in Automating Personalized Emails Stephen recently demonstrated how AI automates personalized emails with just a first name, last name, and email. AI uses data from sources like LinkedIn, company details, and job history to craft messages that feel genuinely tailored to each recipient, far beyond typical generic responses. This level of automation doesn't just boost engagement; it saves significant time. Instead of setting up complex variable fields or spending 15-20 minutes per email on manual research, AI handles it all in seconds. Stephen notes that marketing teams can skip intricate field configurations, while sales teams gain back valuable time to focus on high-impact tasks. AI also serves as a replacement for traditional enrichment tools, pulling in dynamic contact details without third-party data providers. For sales, it means delivering relevant, personalized content effortlessly. AI does the heavy lifting, creating an email that feels custom-built for the recipient—no manual assembly required. Key takeaway: AI enables efficient, data-rich personalization for customer outreach, saving marketing and sales teams time and resources while boosting the quality of each touchpoint.
AI agents are redefining how teams approach personalized outreach, offering new ways to automate highly customized interactions. Stephen explains how Tray.ai leverages a powerful combination of APIs—OpenAI, Google, LinkedIn, and more—to build out complex automation processes directly within its platform. Each AI agent is designed to use the best tool for the task at hand. Given the right context and instructions, these agents can gather relevant data from press releases, Crunchbase, LinkedIn profiles, blog posts, and other sources to craft an email that feels genuinely tailored. Imagine a marketing email generated entirely by an AI agent. With the recipient’s email, role, and other contextual clues, the AI might produce a message like, “Hey, congratulations on your recent speaking slot at AntiCon in London. Hope you had a safe journey back!” This level of personalization would usually require about 15 minutes of research by a BDR or ISR. Now, it can be fully automated, freeing up sales and marketing teams to focus on strategy and high-priority tasks rather than time-consuming data gathering and crafting. Stephen points out that the true power of AI agents comes from implementing them in real, tangible ways. For instance, rather than abstract promises of efficiency, Tray.ai demonstrates AI’s impact with practical use cases like this automated email personalization, which resonates more directly with the people using it. By creating a functional demo that allows teams to see this technology in action, Tray.ai bridges the gap between AI's potential and its practical application. For anyone curious to test it out, Stephen offers a live demo of the personalized email automation. This hands-on approach helps users understand the realistic possibilities AI agents bring to customer engagement and outreach, transforming the process from concept to actionable, impactful workflows. Key takeaway: AI agents streamline personalized outreach, combining data sources and automation tools to generate highly customized emails without manual research. By automating these tasks, teams can focus on high-impact activities while still delivering meaningful, individualized interactions.
Implementing AI-driven customer journey mapping and personalization comes with its share of challenges. Stephen highlights three primary obstacles teams face: complexity, connectivity and compliance.
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| 15 Oct 2024 | 141: Rutger Katz: Cutting through the fluff of Lean methodology and recognizing when process gets in the way of efficiency | 01:03:19 | |
What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rutger Katz, GTM Operations Consultant. Summary: Rutger helps us cut through the fluff of Lean methodology in marketing and how to spot when process gets in the way of efficiency. His advice is to cut out the waste—whether in your process, your tech stack, or how you measure success. Focus on what drives conversions, keep your systems lean, and use simple structures to maintain speed without sacrificing alignment. We also tackle tech debt and how a top-layer AI interface could simplify the case for a composable martech stack. About Rutger
Lean marketing is all about eliminating waste and doubling down on what truly matters. Rutger emphasizes that no matter the size of the company, from a startup to an enterprise, inefficiencies always creep in. These processes—whether learned from someone else or ingrained as “the way things are done”—often aren’t optimal. Lean seeks to strip down these ingrained habits, perfecting the path to deliver value to customers. Rutger highlights that lean marketing goes beyond just being "efficient." It is about understanding how every action connects back to the entire organization. The real challenge is aligning marketing efforts with revenue-driving KPIs, rather than fixating on vanity metrics like page views or social media follows. For Rutger, Lean is about cutting through those superficial measures to ensure that marketing impacts the business holistically. What makes lean particularly valuable is that it doesn't stop at marketing. Rutger explains that Lean should apply to your entire go-to-market strategy. This means assessing not just how marketing operates but how it interlocks with sales, customer success, and even product development. It's about delivering maximum value to the customer while ensuring that the organization operates as efficiently as possible in providing that value. Lean marketing is not a standalone function—it’s a way to optimize the whole organization. When done right, it leads to higher customer satisfaction, longer-term retention, and ultimately, a more streamlined business. For Rutger, this is where the real impact of Lean lies—not just in marketing efficiencies but in enhancing the customer experience across every touchpoint. Key takeaway: Lean marketing is about focusing on what truly drives value. It's not just about marketing—it's about creating efficiency across your entire go-to-market approach, from sales to customer success, all while tying back to key business metrics.
When asked about real-world applications of lean methodologies, Rutger didn’t hesitate to dig into a common yet overlooked issue: the disconnect between sales and marketing. In his experience, CMOs often claim that everything is running smoothly. But when the conversation shifts towards collaboration with sales, the cracks begin to show. One CMO even mentioned that their sales team requested fewer leads, as they were overwhelmed by the volume. Others spoke of back-and-forth frustrations trying to sync efforts between both departments. For Rutger, the root of inefficiency often comes at the handoff between marketing and sales. He explained that marketing teams frequently misinterpret sales-qualified leads (SQLs), sending what they define as SQLs but which sales deems unqualified. This misalignment creates friction, wasting time and resources on both sides. To fix this, Rutger advocates stepping back from just marketing processes and focusing on sales first. Understanding sales capacity and needs becomes essential to deliver the right leads at the right time. A critical step in this process is optimizing for sales’ actual conversion capacity. Rutger highlights that if sales needs to convert 100 leads per month, with a 5% conversion rate, marketing needs to deliver 20 times that amount—2,000 SQLs. He stressed the importance of timely response, pointing out that conversion rates jump by 40% when sales follows up with a lead within 10 minutes. Aligning on this kind of data helps both teams work more effectively toward shared goals. Rutger also urged teams to reevaluate the quality and cost-effectiveness of their campaigns. While campaigns may generate leads, some are far too costly or inefficient, with payback times stretching out to three or four years. Google paid accounts, for example, are notoriously expensive, yet still widely used, particularly in larger organizations. For Rutger, focusing on the most effective campaigns, while pruning inefficient ones, is key to driving sustainable growth. Key takeaway: Marketing and sales alignment is critical for driving efficiency. Understanding sales capacity, optimizing lead delivery, and focusing on high-converting campaigns can reduce friction, improve collaboration, and significantly increase conversion rates.
When asked about navigating the complexities of consolidating a tech stack, Rutger didn’t mince words: aligning stakeholders across IT, marketing, and sales is often more political than it is technical. Large enterprises, in particular, face daunting hurdles when trying to scale back on overlapping tools. Rutger noted that the desire to build a “Frankenstack”—a collection of fragmented technologies—comes from every department wanting its own ideal solution. As a result, the journey to a leaner tech stack can seem like a never-ending project. Rutger’s approach starts with identifying the biggest redundancies. While some overlap is by design, like when one product offers a superior feature, the challenge is to minimize overlap where it's unnecessary. In some cases, up to 60% of a company’s tools perform redundant functions. His advice: focus first on those areas where feature overlap is significant, perhaps 90% or more, and tackle these redundancies gradually. Start small, prioritize high-cost inefficiencies, and avoid a complete tech overhaul in one go. Another common issue Rutger raised is "shadow IT"—the tools that departments purchase without full organizational knowledge or alignment. Marketing might opt for a quick-fix solution, or sales might buy something that works for them but doesn't integrate with other systems. These rogue tools further complicate efforts to streamline technology, making the case for better communication across departments. One of Rutger's key strategies is calculating the cost of maintaining outdated systems against the cost of migration. In legacy-heavy sectors like insurance and banking, this is critical. His pragmatic approach weighs the resources, time, and potential revenue impact of migrations. With the rise of AI, Rutger suggests that migration tools could become faster and cheaper, potentially offsetting the costs of restructuring a tech stack. His advice? Keep your options open and l... | |||
| 10 May 2022 | 56: Michael King: Decoding Search Engine Algorithms | 00:34:22 | |
What’s up everyone, on the show today we have one of the planet’s leading search engine marketers. We’re joined by Mike King. He’s the founder and CEO of iPullRank, an awarding-winning SEO agency. In 2020 he was named Search Marketer of the Year by Search Engine Land, and has been a Global Associate for Moz for more than 10 years. He’s been on the cutting edge of technical SEO his entire career, and he’s currently working on an upcoming book, the science of SEO: Decoding Search Engine Algorithms. He’s a confident introvert and proud Philly native, but these days he pulls rank in a cabana in South Beach, wearing Nike Air Max 1s, and listening to Snoh Aalegra. Mike’s also a Dad, a freestyle rapper, and a highly-engaging keynote speaker. Mike, it’s great to have you on the show – thanks so much for your time. Career path to starting your own agency
Future-proofing for SEO
Technical SEO & Modern Digital Marketing
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| 07 Mar 2023 | 67: How a marketing roadmap can keep your team focused | 00:38:49 | |
What’s up everyone today we’re talking about marketing roadmaps. Rodmaps are usually more common with tech product teams and they are also very common in the project management world. It’s about giving your team the big picture and helping everyone align on project goals. Anyone who’s been in marketing knows that this is something super useful that can be applied to this practice as well. Key takeaway: While it doesn’t always have to be set in stone, a roadmap helps your team stay accountable to certain tasks and deliverables but it’s also a focus weapon that arms you with the ability to say no to new requests. You work on priorities and capacity, you share it with other departments for feedback and it becomes marching orders. Definition Okay so how would you define a roadmap? Definition: A team roadmap is a visual overview showing what projects and tasks will be worked on and when. It usually includes objectives, milestones/tasks, deliverables, resources, and a timeline. A roadmap can serve as a reliable reference guide to help keep the team on track and share with other stakeholders your key projects and objectives. So how do you bring this to life? So I like to do this quarterly. Usually I have a backlog list of projects. This is made up of ideas and things that have popped up over time that we want to get to eventually. From the backlog, you want to try and assign a priority. This exercise can be wildly complex but it can be a simple ICE exercise (Impact, confidence, effort). One keep component as you score projects is company goals and OKRs. Defining the business goals and objectives that the marketing team will work to support. This is usually trickled down in some capacity from management. It might include goals related to increasing brand awareness, generating leads, or improving customer satisfaction. Then you look at capacity, how many hours of work does your team have this quarter, subtract meeting time and PTO. One thing I like to do here is keep a buffer of 15% time for unexpected urgent tasks that pop up. Then you can decide what stays in the backlog and what gets prioritized for the upcoming quarter. There’s a bunch of different tools you can use for roadmapping, whether it’s Jira, Asana, Trello, Notion or others, they all boil down to very similar functions.
What are the best tools to developing a timeline for the initiatives and activities, including key milestones and deliverables. There are many different tools that organizations can use to develop a timeline for their marketing initiatives and activities, including key milestones and deliverables. Some common examples include: Project management software, such as Notion, Asana, Trello, or Microsoft Project, which can be used to create a visual representation of the timeline, track progress, and manage resources. Collaboration tools, such as Slack, Google Hangouts, or Microsoft Teams, which can be used to communicate with team members, share information, and collaborate on tasks. Gantt charts, which are graphical representations of the tasks and dependencies within a project. Gantt charts can be used to visualize the timeline, identify potential conflicts or bottlenecks, and adjust the schedule as needed. Spreadsheet software, such as Microsoft Excel or Google Sheets, which can be used to create a tabular representation of the timeline, track progress, and perform calculations. Overall, the best tools for developing a timeline will depend on the specific needs and preferences of the organization. By using a combination of different tools, organizations can create a comprehensive and effective timeline that helps them plan and execute their marketing initiatives and activities. What’s your fav tool? Trello never fails. But I’ve become a big fan of Notion. Yes, Notion can be used for project management and roadmaps. It’s usually thought of as a company wiki or a place to write memos, but it’s so much more… and if it can also help you manage your projects… imagine combining all of that in one place. Many teams have
I use it personally but also at work, like I mentioned. But because of its versatility, Notion sometimes gets a bad rep when it comes to project management or roadmapping… I’m here to tell you it can all work in there. Notion has a database that enables you to have a variation of views on projects and items, it has templates, it has comments and tracking changes features, it can do anything Trello or Asana can and more. Identifying stakeholders It’s easy to assume you chatted with important folks before diving into projects but speaking from experience, forgetting a key stakeholder and realizing it too late can create major chaos. What's the best path to identify dependencies and stakeholders? Conducting a stakeholder analysis, which involves identifying and prioritizing the stakeholders who are relevant to the project or initiative, and assessing their interests, needs, and potential impact. This can help organizations understand who the key stakeholders are and what their priorities and expectations are, and can inform the development of the project or initiative. Creating a stakeholder map, which is a visual representation of the relationships between the stakeholders and the project or initiative. This can help organizations understand how the stakeholders are connected, and can identify potential areas of conflict, collaboration, or influence. Developing a stakeholder engagement plan, which outlines the strategies and tactics that will be used to engage and communicate with the stakeholders throughout the project or initiative. This can help organizations ensure that the stakeholders are involved and informed, and can provide feedback and support as needed. Overall, identifying dependencies and stakeholders is an important step in the project or initiative planning process, and can help organizations understand the potential impacts and risks, and develop strategies to manage them effectively. By using a structured and systematic approach, organizations can improve their chances of success and achieve their goals and objectives. Sharing your roadmap Finally, how do you share this roadmap? Some possible approaches include: Creating a visual representation of the roadmap, such as a timeline, mind map, or infographic, which can be used to illustrate the key initiatives, activities, and milestones in an engaging and easy-to-understand format. Using storytelling techniques to communicate the roadmap, such as narrating a journey or... | |||
| 27 Jul 2021 | 44: Roxanne Pepin: Startups and the ability to learn RevOps | 00:33:33 | |
Today we are joined by Roxanne Pepin, she’s currently based out of Spain but works for Rewind-- an Ottawa based startup as a Revenue Operations Specialist. She manages all the tech that powers Rewind’s sales, marketing and success teams. Before carving a niche in operations, Roxanne wore many digital marketing hats working for an SEO agency then a tech company. She’s actually a computer science drop out turned writing grad where she also spent time in content marketing. More than just a fixer or a troubleshooter, she’s a convergent thinker. Roxanne is described by her peers as a poised and knowledgeable Salesforce admin and a Hubspot platform whiz with a knack for bridging departments together. Her journey growing into a role at one of the coolest companies in Ottawa is deeply rooted in mastery and pragmatic problem solving. Roxanne, we’re pumped to finally have you on -- thanks for taking the time and chatting with us. Is being a digital nomad really as good as it looks?
Remote comms You’re servicing a team of what 40+ marketing and sales teammates? How do you effectively communicate and collaborate with your team remotely from your spain office?
How to say no One of my favorite quotes from a presentation you gave to my students this year while describing your role and journey was: “everything is doable, but it doesn’t mean you should do it” lol Maybe walk us through some of the stories behind that mantra and why it might be helpful for other marketers when it comes to prioritization and concentration.
Training As someone who works in Ops, you don’t always get the chance to play on the front lines and do customer facing stuff. You often need to also focus on your teammates. Walk us through how big of a role training and facilitation comes into play in your day to day?
No barriers Something I struggled with when I was in an Ops role was that I didn’t always get to pick projects, I didn’t always get a say in strategy. So if you could remove all barriers and constraints, what project or idea would you love to tackle or be known for solving.
We can dive into some of these roles a bit closer but I wanted to start by getting your take on why you gravitate towards Ops?
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