“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies (HR Heretics)

Friends of the podcast and experienced CPOs Colleen McCreary (CreditKarma, Zynga, Twilio, EA) and David Hanrahan (Flare, formerly EventBrite, Zendesk) join hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for this roundtable discussion of where the puck is going for DEI in 2024. They offer their takes on the progress made over the years, the current camps in this debate propelled by the recent capitol hill hearings and Harvard controversy, and the necessity of founders and companies to better understand their own priorities and define their position on DEI.

Check out our individual episodes with both Colleen and David who have both been former guests on the show!
Colleen McCreary on Layoffs, M&A, and Recruiting the Best Talent - https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=aLgdLcjTR0eK6wBCv6KrGw


David Hanrahan on High Performance, Comp Strategy, Performance Cycles, and New Norms - https://open.spotify.com/episode/46H0HSchsnl52DaP9aPsrG?si=jTZ9tTjzR36cNsdqPkjrAQ


HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
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SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/
David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
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LINKS:
Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/harvard-dei-interview-question-best-avoided-roxanne-bras-petraeus-wzope/
Joelle Emerson’s piece: https://fortune.com/2024/01/04/anti-dei-movement-fringe-mainstream-corporate-america-diversity-equity-inclusion-meaning-joelle-emerson/
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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview and Intro
(01:16) The current facts about DEI
(04:50) The inability to have a real dialogue about what practices work and what practices matter
(06:59) Current conversations move people out of the conversation on DEI to the detriment of an effort on diversity
(09:07) The prerequisites of doing DEI the right way
(11:08) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company
(14:19) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(16:05) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company (continued)
(17:57) Allocating resources and improving a company's DEI efforts and programs
(31:50) Where do we see the puck going with DEI in the future?
(41:05) When CPOs can't be everything for everybody and the importance of going back to who you are, your values and your culture
(46:22) DEI in 2024 is going to be more of an expectation of leadership as opposed to standalone efforts

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

On the inaugural episode of HR Heretics, author and former Chief Talent Officer of Netflix Patty McCord joins co-hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a candid interview to talk through how to innovate from the HR role, buck best practices, and how to build a high performing company. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice www.lattice.com/hrheretics
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Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum: HR Heretics listeners get 15% off of their first month using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: 
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH PATTY, KELLI, & NOLAN ON LINKEDIN
Patty: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pattymccord/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
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LINKS:
Netflix Culture Deck- https://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664 
Powerful by Patty McCord- https://pattymccord.com/book/
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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(02:19) How we got Patty on this podcast
(05:22)The true story behind Netflix’s culture deck
(09:15) High Performance cultures actually take 4-5 years to pull off
(09:40) Why releasing the culture deck changed Netflix’s hiring immediately
(11:33) What to do when employees are averse to change
(15:10) Delivering effective feedback
(18:15) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum 
(19:50) Why execs need to get used to short tenures
(22:10) If you’re successful your company will change
(24:30) Retention and the truth we need to tell employees about career pathing
(26:19) How Reed Hastings hired Patty McCord
(29:45) How HR officers can get a seat at the table
(33:25) The P&L is the most important HR metric
(35:10) Are HR leaders getting soft?
(37:40) What Patty would tell her younger self
(39:00) Why an HR officer is a business leader, not a business partner
(40:00) What do HR people do?
(41:30) Fixing equal pay and compensation strategy
(43:28) Why HR keeps doing stupid stuff and needs to abandon best practices
(48:10) What HR can learn from product managers
(52:44) Compartmentalization and terminations
(55:20) If Patty rewrote her book, she would change the chapter about relationships at work
(56:40) Why HR people invite inappropriate therapist-style relationships
(59:50) Why having arguments at work should be normalized
(01:04:25) Does Patty miss being in the arena?
(01:06:58)The portions of the workforce most impacted right now
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HR Heretics is brought to you by Turpentine www.turpentine.co
Exec Producer: Amelia Salyers
Producer: Natalie Toren
Production: Will Henderson-Nold, Seth Hahn, Michelle Poreh
For inquiries about guests or sponsoring the podcast, email Natalie@turpentine.co
Extra thanks to Patty McCord for hosting our team at her home.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Brett Queener is a partner at Bonfire Ventures, with a background extending to nearly every function as an operator at Salesforce, Smart Recruiters, and more. Brett is well-versed in the mechanics of early-stage companies and this conversation covers the death rate of startups, the point of board meetings, getting people to work outrageously hard for you, and more.
Kelli and Nolan’s segment this week (54:00-01:09:30) discusses Jack Dorsey’s decision to eliminate PIPs and expands into a broader discussion of the right sized management layer, span of control, performance review systems and how businesses can change their approach towards feedback and evaluations

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
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SPONSORS: Metaview | Continuum | Lattice

✅ Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Robinhood, Quora, and Replit say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself for free on your first 5 interviews: https://www.metaview.ai/1000

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH BRETT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Brett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
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LINKS:
Brett Queener’s exceptional (free) Guides and templates: https://www.bonfirevc.com/team/brett-queener
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00) Preview
(04:31) Insights on what's in store for investors, founders, and execs for 2024
(09:06) Making that pivot in 2024
(12:32) The economics of how a VC works
(16:34) Sponsor - Continuum | Metaview
(19:20 There's nothing that replaces the soul of a founder
(23:11) On talent planning at the executive level
(29:39) Sponsor - Lattice
(30:50) Signs that how a company has the right people leader
(35:50) Does Brett think HR leaders, founders, companies have gone a little soft?
(41:51) How to get people to love working hard and appreciate it and the negative connotations of the 40-hour work-week
(46:21) On the importance of the relationship between the CHRO and the founder for company health
(50:20) Brett's best hire who has transformed a company
(52:49) Brett's favorite interview question that gives the best signal on candidates?
(54:00) Kelli & Nolan's segment on PIPs, Performance Reviews, and Managers vs ICs

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, we have a conversation with Matt Oberhardt, partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), about the complexities of recruiting executives and finding talent. Matt explains the importance of precision in referencing and maintaining professionalism in recruitment processes. We also cover specific advice for founders, the transition of veterans into start-ups, and dealing with the 2024 macro and job market. Find the best fractional execs at Continuum: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co -- SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum ✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics ✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com – KEEP UP WITH MATT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Matt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattoberhardt/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ – LINKS: Andreessen Horowitz Exec Hiring Guide: https://a16z.com/executive-hiring/ – TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (03:21) Matt's Role at a16z and Approach in Talent Assessment (06:10) Balancing External and Internal Roles (07:35) Measuring Success in Talent Assessment (09:10) The MOC Process in Executive Hiring (15:02) Assessing Fit in Executive Hiring (18:39) Effective Reference Processing (22:25) Support our sponsors: Lattice | Continuum (24:35) Dealing with Negative References (26:48) The Importance of Nuance in Hiring (27:46) The Concept of Personal Growth in Candidates (28:43) Reengaging with Executives and Understanding Their Growth (29:56) The Challenge of Making Decisions as a Founder (37:44) The Role of Veterans in Startups (44:16) The Impact of Market Shifts on Hiring (46:49) The Challenge of Retaining Top Talent (50:55) The Value of Tough Feedback in Interviews

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Cara Brennan Allamano is the Chief People Officer at Lattice and previously at Udemy, Pinterest, and Adobe. Nolan and Kelli talk to Cara about the intricacies of building relationships with CEOs, different career paths for people leadership, undergoing layoffs with dignity, and the importance of saying "no" when necessary for the health of the organization. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH CARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Cara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carabrennan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(03:16) Being a people officer but having low tolerance for pain
(05:40) On getting excited about helping other people become successful
(06:55) The meta thing of careers according to Cara
(10:58) How do you get to that point where you can say no to your CEO?
(13:24) Sponsors - Lattice | Continuum
(14:52) How do you pick the right CEO to work with?
(17:17) On building a CPO career: Shiny object syndrome and focusing on the relationship with the CEO
(22:36) The paradox of choice
(30:40) On leaders coming outside of HR into HR
(37:34) Cara's insight on rolling layoffs
(41:46) Cara's biggest screw up in her career
(45:42) What does it look like to be an effective people team?
(46:56) All anybody wants is to be heard and respected
(50:50) On the biggest things to build successors in Lattice (and the idea of meritocracy)
(53:59) Cara's best hire
(54:40) Cara's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Dan Portillo is the founder and GP of The General Partnership, a fund that prioritizes talent in a network-based approach. Formerly he was early-Mozilla and then went on to Greylock where he carved out a role as a talent partner. Dan talks to Nolan and Kelli about how VC and VC talent partners operate, an influential world that most people in the venture and startup ecosystem don't actually know that much about. They also talk about backchannels, going from HR leadership roles to finding success as an advisor, and the necessary skill of framing new ideas as experiments. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH DAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Dan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielportillo/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview
(02:40) Dan talks about Mozilla, being the 20th employee, his role and how the became the VP of Talent
(06:21) On scaling Mozilla: handling both the HR side and recruiting side
(10:00) Dan's take on creating a leveling structure and performance reviews
(13:00) Dan talks about his journey building talent at Greylock
(17:05) Dan's experience working with the founders Greylock has backed
(19:35) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(21:20) Dan's "Aha!" moments with executive hiring and with how the industry shifted from 2011 to 2018
(25:55) Dan's transition from Greylock to Sweat Equity Ventures (now The General Partnership)
(34:30) Shifting from Talent to VC and making the portfolio companies better
(38:40) Should I get into a VC talent partner role?
(41:00) How to get into advising and pitfalls to be careful of
(43:32) When does a founder need an advisor?
(44:55) Dan's expectations expecting going into 2024 and how he is positioning the fund and advising founders
(47:30) Dan's best hire and why
(50:25) Dan's secret for finding undiscovered talent
(52:30) The power of back channels and executive hiring
(55:00) Seven degrees from Dan Portillo

LINKS:
https://www.thegp.com/builders/daniel-portillo

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

David Hanrahan is the Chief People Officer of Flare and a highly respected people leader. David joins Kelli and Nolan for an unfiltered discussion on pushing for high performance in your company, normalizing scorecards, and what qualities separates the best HR leaders. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
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SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH DAVID, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Intro
(03:00) On People leaders getting a little soft and being burned out
(05:00) David 20+ years vs David 10+ years experience
(07:35) The gap between what employers and employees are expecting
(10:55) Putting together deviations of different generations and tips on how to get them coalesced
(14:25) David's view on what high performance is
(21:10) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(22:55) David's advice on company transparency with practices and organizations
(26:00) On normalizing scorecards
(27:24) On unlocking higher levels of performance
(30:00) David's insights on compensation and how is he advising on compensation
(34:10) Salary increase: manager's discretion versus the model
(35:30) On making sure a manager delivers the right message to top performers
(37:50) How David assesses a people leader?
(41:30) Where people leaders fail and how do you get that ship back on the right track?
(44:00) Staying sane while aligning with all the competing interests in a company
(48:50) David's advice for people having a hard time trying to get the Head of People role
(51:15) David on continuous learning and staying sharp
(52:30) Staying aligned with a company's founder

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

At scaling companies. navigating parting ways with an executive requires finesse, strategic insights, and insider experience. Run The Numbers podcast invited Kelli and Nolan to break down every facet, lever, and little known facts behind successfully exiting execs. Its a great conversation - Kelli and Nolan have seen it all and break down termination packages, terms like double trigger and garden leave, exec pay parity, and how to fire CEOs. Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9

Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com

–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Run The Numbers
Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, KELLI , and CJ
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/

–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Intro
(02:08) Exec Departures
(03:47) How the Decision-Making Process Happens in Executive Departures
(04:49) The Continuum of Executive Departures
(05:57) The Ideal Scenario
(06:42) The Challenges of Replacing Executives
(09:03) The Compensation Aspect of Executive Departures
(10:59) The Controversy Around Executive Severance Packages
(16:06) The Biggest Golden Parachute
(22:11) The Concept of Garden Leave
(23:40) Understanding Single Trigger vs Double Trigger Clauses
(25:41) Understanding the Double Trigger
(26:03) Kelli's Experience with Double Trigger at Looker
(27:12) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(28:57) Common Positions to Get Axed
(29:30) The Importance of Parity Among Executives
(31:30) The Role of Employment Agreements
(39:22) The Process of Firing a CEO
(45:45) How to Handle Being Fired as an Executive

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Colleen McCreary, a seasoned Chief People Officer (Zynga, Credit Karma, EA, Twilio) -turned-venture capitalist at Ribbit Capital, sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church. This insider conversation covers tactical advice for navigating Mergers and Acquisitions (she’s been through multiple), layoffs, recruiting top talent, and transitioning from an HR leader into the world of the board room. Before the interview, Nolan and Kelli also discuss the recent negative press for Carta's CEO Henry Ward, and offer listeners a behind the scenes understanding of executive departures and settlement packages. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum
✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum: HR Heretics listeners get 15% off of their first month using this link (https://bit.ly/40hlRa9)
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. HR Heretics listeners get 15% off
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: 
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Colleen:https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/
Nolan:https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
LINKS:
- Ribbit Capital: https://ribbitcap.com/
- Henry Ward’s blog post about negative press: https://henrysward.medium.com/what-i-tell-employees-about-negative-press-7c134e7a601c 
 –
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(01:43) The Carta story: executive terminations and lawsuits
(05:15) Rolling Layoffs
(13:45) Setting expectations after a layoff event
(17:49) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(19:23) Employee accountability and RTO debate
(21:00) CHRO/CPO’s responsibility to be the voice for the company
(26:20) Moral challenges and breaking up with a CEO - infamous Zynga story
(31:28) Colleen’s experience being an advisor for Silicon Valley, the HBO series
(34:25) Recruiting lessons from Silicon Valley
(36:20) Colleen’s tactical lessons from multiple M&As
(43:30) Most important ‘gotchas’ to watch out for in M&A process
(47:08) Transitioning from HR to VC
(50:40) Being a long date in the interview process to create opportunities
(53:15) Navigating the choice between CPO at a big company, COO, and VC 
(55:40) Colleen’s best hire(s): Mike Vernal and his crew
(58:28) Colleen’s best interview question
–
HR Heretics is brought to you by Turpentine www.turpentine.co
Producer: Natalie Toren
Production: Graham Bessellieu, Michelle Poreh
For inquiries about guests or sponsoring the podcast, email Natalie@turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Steve Cadigan scaled LinkedIn from 400 to 4000 people in 3.5 years, and is now an author and consultant on global talent strategy. He joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss lessons from working with LinkedIn’s CEO during hyper scale, recruiting talent, going public, and debate the future of work. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

After the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent incidents of employees being fired for hate speech at work.
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: 
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH STEVE NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Steve: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cadigan/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
LINKS:
Steve’s podcast: The Work Week After Hours hosted by Steve Cadigan and Shane Howard https://open.spotify.com/show/54IQnRsvb4pCPA0InnjV5u

Steve’s book: Workquake https://stevecadigan.com/workquake/

Incident at Apple: https://twitter.com/stopantisemites/status/1720380304073035906?s=46&t=DYK-BZSQG0qJD_0l2IU7fQ

Incident at Wix: https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/article-769922

Kelli and Nolan’s discussion on Politics at Work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULeqedDFYM&t=2s
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(05:24) Week one at LinkedIn
(08:30) LinkedIn’s biggest problem was recruiting: Why would anyone want to work here?
(18:49) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(21:13) Overcoming the resistance against boring HR foundations
(23:27) How to navigate leadership’s expectations for HR
(27:52) Steve’s take on HR leaders
(28:30) How Steve led his team at LinkedIn
(30:21) Stories from working with LinkedIn’s CEO Jeff Weiner
(37:42) How to get other stakeholders to own comp
(42:30) When LinkedIn went public
(46:48) Counseling organizations on creating opportunities with a distributed remote nature
(54:13) Blitzcaling at LinkedIn - what didn't go well and finding the right leaders for a billion dollar company
(01:01:35) Would Steve return to the chief people seat?
(01:04:03) Rapid fire: Steve’s favorite hire and interview question
(01:12:20) Kelli & Nolan's segment: Hate speech at work

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Molly Graham is a seasoned exec, builder, and widely-read writer in tech. She joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss her lessons from working on different challenges (HR,Comms, GTM, COO) in hyper-scaling companies, career building, assembling strong leadership teams, and managing the rollercoaster emotions of zero-to-one startups. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

After the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss the uproar over whether to use LinkedIn's Open to Work badge, since Nolan was quoted in the press as being very critical of the feature and the signal it sends to hiring managers.
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: 
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH MOLLY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Molly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
LINKS:
Molly's newsletter: https://mollyg.substack.com/
Molly's operator community: https://www.andthen.com/club-for-the-glue-people
Give Away Your Legos: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups
Make Friends with the Monster Chewing At Your Leg: https://review.firstround.com/make-friends-with-the-monster-chewing-on-your-leg-and-other-tips-for-surviving-startups
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode Preview
(01:06) Introduction to this episode
(03:30) Behind Molly’s viral articles and her years at Google and Facebook
(06:15) Emotions at work
(08:39) Normalizing founder/ early team depression
(09:50) Lessons scaling at different stages
(11:00) Becoming the 9th employee at Quip
(14:20) Overnight success
(15:35) You have to pick a big problem
(19:10) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(21:30) Navigating a career with a high risk appetite
(23:50) Molly’s Chamath story
(27:25) Creating opportunities by cementing relationships
(33:40) How to get teams to work well together
(37:45) Hiring great execs
(40:30) Exec tenures
(43:00) Moving faster on terminations
(49:50) What do founders want now from a CPO?
(53:10) Rapid fire: best hire, best interview question
(54:30) Kelli and Nolan on the Open to Work controversy
–
HR Heretics is brought to you by Turpentine www.turpentine.co
Producer: Natalie Toren 
Production: Lauren Ligovich, Michelle Poreh 
For inquiries about guests or sponsoring the podcast, email Natalie@turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Tomasz Tunguz is a General Partner at Theory Ventures and the writer of one of the best blog/newsletters in tech. Tom joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss the relationship between boards, founders and People leaders, and how HR strategies interact with boards in key moments of a company’s history, including M&A. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

After the interview, Nolan and Kelli discuss the dynamics of navigating politics at work in your companies.
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: 
Every week investor and writer of the popular newsletter The Diff, Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Subscribe to “The Riff” with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg: https://link.chtbl.com/theriff
–
KEEP UP WITH TOMASZ, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Tomasz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasztunguz/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ 

–
LINKS:
Tomasz Tunguz’ Blog: https://tomtunguz.com/
Theory Ventures: https://theory.ventures/
Tom on Span of Control: https://tomtunguz.com/span-of-control/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Episode preview
(02:40) Span of Control: eliminating middle management
(04:19) Tom's take on the ratio of managers to doers
(06:19) What should ARR per employee be?
(07:19) Talent today vs 5 years ago
(08:30) Tom's view on exec searches
(11:45) Evaluating the decision for a down round
(13:15) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum
(15:00) Opportunities for new talent
(16:45) Flexibility of Mind
(19:15) Hiring: Getting it Right and Changing When It Goes Wrong
(20:40) How should departures be communicated to boards?
(21:00) Life cycle of an executive
(22:49) On interim roles
(25:15) How Tom diligences people
(26:20) What makes a great head of people
(30:30) Google's acquisition of Looker from Tom and Kelli's perspective
(31:00) How does a Mergers and Acquisition process work?
(37:00) The 3 kinds of Acquisitions
(39:15) Where the puck is going for venture-backed tech companies
(41:25) Predictions for AI
(43:55) HR Folks and founders should get back on the offense in 2024
(45:00) Kelli and Nolan on navigating politics at work
–
HR Heretics is brought to you by Turpentine www.turpentine.co
Producer: Natalie Toren 
Production: Graham Bessellieu, Michelle Poreh 
For inquiries about guests or sponsoring the podcast, email Natalie@turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Q Hamirani, the Chief People Officer at Paper, joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss navigating the CPO seat under immense pressure, the real deal behind Airbnb's remote work policy, how design thinking helps solve people problems, and how the people function should not be left behind by the AI revolution. They also touch on great stories and tactical insights from Q's time as AirBnB s and his current CPO role at edtech company Paper (https://paper.co/).

Learn more about Q's AI community for people leaders: https://www.thepeoplegpt.com/

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Q: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamirani/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00) Preview
(01:30) Q's wild background
(07:40) How the engineer in Q handled the rejection going into HR
(09:27) Having a business background
(11:37) Balancing the dynamics of design thinking and love for iteration
(13:07) Transitioning from Airbnb to Paper
(17:27) On avoiding burnout while building your team
(19:47) How Airbnb handled layoffs
(23:53) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(25:37) The Digital Nomad program
(31:05) What would Q change in terms of handling comp given the circumstances of today's market?
(33:50) The future of work debate with AI
(36:38) Getting people back in the office and maintaining morale
(41:51) How do you react when things don't go your way?
(48:21) AI and the direction of People Ops and recruiting
(57:10) Q's favorite interview question
(58:10) Q's best hire and why

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Melanie Naranjo is the VP, People at Ethena and an insightful writer at the forefront of HR thought leadership. In this episode, Melanie, Kelli and Nolan dig into the current sentiment in HR, why the bar is set lower than it should be, why you should abandon PIPs, instilling a culture of feedback among execs, and why EQ isn’t the most important skill to develop in a people leader. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
–
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com
–
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers
–
KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
LINKS:
The Cost of Tolerating Underperformance: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cost-tolerating-underperformance-overlooking-your-high-naranjo/

Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview
(00:43) Intro
(02:40) Melanie's Ethena Journey
(05:17) Is it fun being in the HR tech space?
(06:19) Biggest learnings for HR leaders
(12:41) Sponsors - Lattice | Continuum
(14:24) Is High EQ the most important quality in a people leader?
(16:50) Emotional maturity and logical problem solving
(20:04) Having support and guidance and intentionality
(27:07) Ego, politics and feedback
(29:00) On meritocracies in tech
(32:48) On handling performance issues
(35:00) Insights on writing "The cost of tolerating underperformance — and overlooking your high performers" - see links
(37:47) Using or abandoning Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs)
(40:26) Ethena's selling points
(41:45) Most people suck at giving feedback
(43:08) On growing personal and employer brand awareness on LinkedIn
(46:06) When a CEO and CHRO works together
(48:23) How to find the CEO and leadership team to partner with
(51:20) Assessing for intellectual nimbleness during an interview
(53:16) Why Melanie doesn't backchannel for non-execs
(55:43) The best interview question
(56:40) Melanie's best hire
(57:44) Advice for people leaders going into 2024

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan discuss their different perspectives on the effectiveness of DEI initiatives and the temperature in tech businesses right now.
–
Feedback is welcome - send a note to Kelli and Nolan on LI to let us know what you think.
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–

SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.joincontinuum.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Jen Trzepacz, or JT as she's widely known, is a Silicon Valley vet (Yahoo, EA, Salesforce, Living Social) and currently the CPO of SymphonyAI. JT joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to talk about how HR needs to be expertly aligned with the business bottom line, how to do transparency around compensation well, how to recruit the best talent, navigating complicated CEO relationships, and takes us on a trip down memory lane for her biggest F-ups.
HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co
--
SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum

✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics
High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics

✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9
Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com
–
KEEP UP WITH JT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN
JT: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jetrzepacz/
Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/
Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/
–
TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Preview and Intro
(04:33) Jen's biggest F-ups in her career
(07:35) The merit files of Yahoo and the ripple effects
(15:12) JT's thoughts on comp transparency today
(20:09) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum
(21:54) Making hard trade offs and understanding competitive differentiation
(41:10) When the relationship between a CEO and CPO doesn't work
(47:01) JT's best hire and her secret weapon in the candidate experience
(51:49) JT's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates
(55:46) Chief people officers are going to have to deal with AI

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Katelin Holloway, founding partner at VC firm 776 which she started with Alexis Ohanian. Holloway, the former VP of People at Reddit, shares insights from her experience both in HR and breaking into venture. Katelin shares a ton of practical advice - and tactics - for HR leaders who want to start investing or break into VC, explaining how to develop a founder-focussed approach, the benefits of advising relationships, and the need to deliver value.We highly recommend subscribing to free newsletter HR Brew: https://bit.ly/hrbrew

–KEEP UP WITH KATELIN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Katelin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelinholloway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

–In addition to being a partner at a VC firm, Katelin hosts the excellent podcast All Hands which we recommend: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/all-hands/id1515795663–TIMESTAMPS:|(00:00) Preview(00:46) Intro(04:24) Waking up one day in the boardroom: Katelin's career journey in HR(11:50) Sponsor - Lattice  | Continuum(13:48) On meeting Alexis Ohanian and the evolution of their relationship(19:03) Getting more people leaders in venture(22:33) The fork in the road: how to transition out successfully from an organization(27:45) Why aren't there a lot of HR people working in venture?(37:32) Katelin's gripes with the VC operating system, and how it’s changing(42:20) Building an investor reputation and brand starts with building a good relationship with founders(49:27) Tactics: How to become an investor(56:22) Past experiences that helped Katelin get to where she is now(58:50) Wrap✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

The only reason we do interviews is because we’ve done them in the past. Hear Nolan and Kelli discuss Linear’s recent announcement that they’re moving from interviews to work trials for all candidates (https://twitter.com/linear/status/1735019663875264958)

Also discussed is Nolan’s experience with a failed interview policy from his time at Google.Let us know what you think by sending us a message on LinkedIn, sharing your thoughts in the comments. Our substack is new and we’re excited about this new way to watch the podcast, so we’d appreciate you subscribing, sharing and forwarding this to anyone you think would love it.

This episode is brought to you by Continuum. Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

- Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

- Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

rjJKJsGxi3r4iX7Qh5uo

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is dedicated to covering what rising mid-career HR professionals really want to know. Janelle Lopez, an incredible HR professional, is brought in to interview us about her next move. Janelle, who worked at Yahoo and SurveyMonkey, has 12 years of transformative experiences under her belt, yet finds herself faced with biases and apprehensions from CEOs and founders reluctant to hire a 'number two'. Kelli and Nolan offer advice about taking control of the narrative during the hiring process and leaning into work trials. 

Forward our substack to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to Subscribe: https://hrheretics.substack.com

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro & Janelle’s background

(01:46) What should Janelle’s next steps be?

(02:07) The Debate: Number One or Number Two Role?

(07:45) Overcoming Biases and vhallenges during the search

(08:14) The reframe: loyalty and learning

(15:45) Imposter syndrome

(17:02) Work Trials

GET IN TOUCH WITH JANELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Janelle:https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Brigette McInnis-Day, CPO of UIPath — a people leader at the biggest company we’ve had repped on the podcast to date.Timestamps and the transcript of our episode with Brigette are below. We love feedback! Subscribe to our substack to get VIDEO episodes in your inbox. You can also always listen to the podcast on Apple & Spotify.

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We highly recommend you subscribe to HR Brew: a free daily newsletter for people leaders and operators https://bit.ly/hrbrew

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KEEP UP WITH BRIGETTE, KELLI, + NOLANBrigette McInnis-Day: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brigettemcinnisday/Kelli Dragovich: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan Church: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

----TIMESTAMPS* (00:00) Intro 

* (02:38) Shout Out to HR Brew https://bit.ly/hrbrew

* (04:07) The Looker Acquisition by Google

* (05:04) The Role of HR in M&A

* (14:12) The UiPath Team Construction

* (21:11) Building a Company with the Right HR Toolkit

* (21:35) The Importance of Prioritizing in a High-Growth Company

* (24:56) Pay Transparency and Pay Equity

* (33:08) The Future of Comp

* (38:41) Negotiating

* (41:56) Learning from Failures in HR

* (47:51) The Strategy of Hiring a SuccessorHR Heretics is a part of Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is sparked by a recent viral video of a layoff recorded by an employee. Kelli and Nolan cover the recent layoffs at Google and Cloudflare, how treatment of an employee during the layoff impacts both the employee and employer, and how companies should handle parting ways with an employee in 2024. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: https://hrheretics.substack.com/.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Special segment alert

(00:17) January is the biggest month in the last 20 years for layoffs in tech

(01:10) Kelli's take

(02:41) Bad behavior, bad policies and the need for big tech companies to be called out for doing rolling layoffs

(04:32) Google layoffs

(05:20) Cloudflare employee records her layoff

(06:10) The litmus test of being part of a team (not just HR teams)

(07:03) When CEOs think they can get away with bad behavior since other companies do it

(08:05) What happens when you don't treat employees in good faith

(10:05) Accountability checks on companies during layoffs

(11:20) Back to the golden rule

(11:41) Important reminder for employers

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary delve into diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) with Mita Mallick of Carta. Mita is the Head of Inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta and the author of Reimagine Inclusion. They discuss the benefits of cross-cultural marketing, how DEI roles aren't set up for success in tech companies, inclusion as a business driver, and successful career succession planning.

Want more Colleen? Check out her DEI Roundtable episode here (https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/colleen-mccreary-on-layoffs-m-and-7cb) and our 3rd ever episode interviewing Colleen about her career ups and downs (https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_source=navbar&utm_medium=web&r=39tmjr)

SPONSOR: Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

We highly recommend you subscribe to HR Brew: a free daily newsletter for people leaders and operators https://bit.ly/hrbrew

TIMESTAMPS:

* (00:00) Introduction 

* (01:09) Welcome to HR Heretics

* (01:31) Intro to Mita Malik

* (02:56) Shout Out to HR Brew https://bit.ly/hrbrew

* (04:00) Mita's Book Reimagine Inclusion

* (05:42) Mita's Career in DEI

* (08:52) The Importance of Inclusion in Business

* (14:37) Sponsor: Attio

* (15:40) Measuring Success of Inclusion

* (20:54) The Role of Leadership in Diversity

* (28:55) The Myth of Meritocracy

* (30:02) Realities of Career Progression

* (31:36) Talent Management

* (34:59) The Importance of Honest Feedback

* (38:12) The Role of Inclusion in Competitive Advantage

* (49:05) The Impact of Generational Shifts on Workplace Norms

* (49:55) Wrap

LINKS:

Mita Mallick’s book Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace

KEEP UP WITH MITA, COLLEEN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Mita: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mita-mallick-2b165822/

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church talk with Elizabeth Patterson, Partner (People & Talent) at Sapphire Ventures. The conversation is all about how to find the best CPO roles, how VC talent partners actually work, and what it's like engaging with portfolio companies and execs. Lots of insider info. Elizabeth manages Sapphire Venture’s human capital network, including the Sapphire Fellows program.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH ELIZABETH,NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

- Elizabeth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabetharnsdorfpatterson/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(03:17) Stories

(08:08) Navigating the Venture Capital World

(11:00) The Gotchas and Ahas of Finding the Best Opportunity into Venture Capital

(13:50) How Success is Measured

(16:00) Sponsor - Attio

(17:11) How to Find the Best CPO Roles

(22:56) The Relationship Between Talent Partners and Executive Recruiters

(27:24) Correlating the Business with Cultural Fit and Vibe in Recruitment

(31:28) Back Channels in Recruitment

(35:49) Executive Compensation on Recruitment

(40:18) How Photographic Memory Helps in Recruitment

(45:53) Elizabeth's Favorite Interview Question

(48:02) Qualities of a Great Leader

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

We are so excited to bring you Kelli and Nolan’s interview with L.J. Brock, the CPO of Coinbase – a trailblazing company that has come under scrutiny in the press for their ‘no politics at work’ stance and talent density policies. L.J discusses how Coinbase continues to innovate to drive the company mission, how they ensure the company hiring standards stay at the highest level, how he works with Coinbase’s CEO Brian Armstrong to conceive of new policies, and how Coinbase sees career development.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH L.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

L.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbrock/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview and Intro

(02:34) Coinbase's Controversial No Politics at Work Policy

(07:29) The Aftermath of the No Politics Policy

(11:25) Running Headfirst Into Your Death Moment

(13:53) Talent Evaluation: Designing an Interview Process That Gives A Realistic Preview

(15:46) Sponsor - Attio

(17:53) Coinbase's Process of Implementing Radical Changes

(24:13) Making Two-Way Door and One-Way Door Decisions

(25:27) On Transparency and the Challenges of Innovating and Implementing Change

(27:51) Sprint Concept

(29:25) How Talent Density Came to Be at Coinbase

(35:10) The Impact of Hiring Processes on Talent Density

(36:57) Challenges of Implementing Real-Time Feedback

(43:00) Doing Work Trials

(45:47) Being More Equitable and Diverse

(48:46) Moving to Single Pay Target and Stock Grants

(55:41) Grooming and Developing More CPOs and HR Leaders

(59:52) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is sparked by the situation at Bolt, where employees who participated in an employee loan program were impacted by the company's valuation which was slashed by 97%. Kelli and Nolan discuss the post termination exercising window, the need for employees to be better educated about equity, and share personal experiences with options. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe hrheretics.substack.com

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Bolt’s revaluation and how it affected employees

(03:30) Get smart about equity

(04:00) Carta’s Guides to Equity

(05:00) Post termination exercise window

(08:00) Sponsor: Attio

(09:00) Why 90 days?

(10:25) Nolan’s personal story with his options from DoorDash

(13:00) Early employees get screwed

(14:00) Request for crowdsourced google sheet

LINKS:

Carta Equity 101 - https://carta.com/equity/learn/

Carta Equity 102 - https://carta.com/blog/personal-finance-102-table-stakes/

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Kelli and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary go from 0 to 100 with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-founder of 37signals (Basecamp). The discussion covers 37signals’ radical policies and the “no politics at work” policy that got them canceled on Twitter after corporate America “went woke”. They also discuss the no managers rule that embraces more efficiency in a limited 40 hour work week and why overworking is a dated mindset. David also talks about his love of programming and the development of Ruby on Rails through his unique approach, and how it went on to impact other programmers.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Susbscribe now: Hrheretics.substack.com

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co

--

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH DHH, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

DHH: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-heinemeier-hansson-374b18221/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(05:00) Creating Ruby on Rails: DHH's Experience

(10:00) Making Your Code Sing

(12:31) The Role of Management

(14:34) Sponsor - Attio

(16:21) Code is Easy, People are Hard - Aligning and Developing Philosophies

(20:50) Refining the Work Week and How to Get More Out of It

(25:53) Having a Creative Space Within a 40-hour Work Week

(31:01) Office Work vs Remote Work

(34:27) Discussing Diversity and Choices in Companies

(36:10) Wokeness and Surviving Cancel Culture

(41:42) The Importance of Clarity and Identity

(47:18) Radical Candor

(50:54) The Misinterpretation of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion

(56:58) Honest Conversations in the Workplace

(59:50) DHH's Take on the HR Profession

(01:05:35) Wrap—

--

LINKS:

Radical Candor by Kim Scott

DHH's Writing: https://world.hey.com/dhh

Employee Handbook: https://basecamp.com/handbook

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discusses Shopify's recent announcement of their ‘~Mastery’ dual track system, rewarding management and craftspeople equally.

Kelli and Nolan also delve into topics such job leveling, advancement, and performance reviews and share personal stories from DoorDash and Yahoo.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com

--SPONSOR:This episode is brought to you by Attio, the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction to Shopify's New Mastery Approach

(01:09) Nolan and Kelli’s Initial Reactions

(2:13) The Concept of Six-Month Work Sprints

(05:43) IC Track and Manager Track

(07:20) The DoorDash Story

(08:42) Sponsor - Attio

(09:39) The Evolution of Workforce and Organizational Structures

(14:07)  Shifting from Management to Mastery Roles

--LINKS:Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery

--GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

--

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli host A.J. Thomas of X, the moonshot factory from Alphabet. A.J for a discussion about failure, innovation, and embracing adversity. They also discuss the importance of scenario planning and asking all the questions upfront as a baseline for business optimization.

While at X, A.J. embraces the notion that professional breakthrough requires personal breakthrough and her perspective on the relentless pursuit of truth, dispassionate assessment, and the power of curiosity provides invaluable insights into cultivating a mindset of innovation and resilience.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network.

HR Heretics is brought to you by Attio the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:07) Unique Approach to Onboarding

(10:09) Creative Hiring and Community Outreach

(13:07) Change and Clarity

(14:20) Sponsor: Attio

(15:52) Scenario Planning

(19:07) AJ's Journey to X, Google’s Moonshot Factory

(29:56) Embracing Failure

(33:00) The Unrecruiting Route - Why You Shouldn't Join

(42:23) Dispassionate Assessment

(44:46) The Relentless Pursuit of Truth

(47:58) Authenticity

(50:48) Being on the Front Line and the Quest for Learning

KEEP UP WITH A.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

A.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelejeanthomas/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Do companies need HR? Kelli and Nolan discuss a recent episode of All In (the #1 Business podcast in the world) which championed a utopian vision of dismantling HR inside companies, a conversation ignited by Sequoia’s Shaun Maguire exposing Google’s promotion policies. Kelli and Nolan discuss how we even got to this point of frustration, what’s worth decentralizing, and what would fall apart without HR. What do you think?Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: video episodes in your inbox: hrheretics.substack.com

This episode is brought to you by Attio.Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Emergency Segment

(00:49) Discussion on the All In Podcast's Take on HR

(01:05) Shaun Maguire’s Tweet About Google

(02:16) Debate on the Role and Future of HR

(08:56) Sponsor: Attio

(09:55) High Growth Companies Without HR?

(11:37) HR & Business Outcomes

(15:27) CTA

—

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment delves into the intricacies of board member dynamics, specifically focusing on the removal of board members. Highlighted by the situation involving Michael Moritz's removal from Klarna's board, the discussion covers the complexities and nuances of board construction, including the distinction between preferred and independent board members, contract terms, and the impact of diversity.

We need to demystify board operations — how they work, voting dynamics, and what they do! Open call for any listener (ex-CEO preferred) who can come dig into the gritty details of board dynamics in a future episode.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe. hrheretics.substack.com

--

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:22) The Complex World of Boards

(03:53) Sponsor - Attio

(04:48) Nolan and Kelli Share their Experiences and Expectations of Board Members

(07:52) Picking Investors and Board Members

(08:22) Board Construction

(09:52) Diversity of Boards When A Company Matures

(10:32) Stories From DoorDash

(11:32) The Mysterious Notion of Board Votes and Equity Approval

--

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Nolan and Kelli investigate the “recruiting is like art and science” analogy with the Chief People Officer at Pendo, JR Rettig. 

JR digs into the decisions that led her to the CPO seat, working closely with Kelli. JR also covers the needs for businesses to budget for leaving C-Suite leaders and succession planning, the advantages of a hybrid internal and external recruiting method for execs, and how to maintain a high bar in talent acquisition.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now. hrheretics.substack.com

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JR, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

JR: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenrettig/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:22) How JR and Kelli Became Work Wives

(05:35) Yin and Yang in Professional Relationships

(08:26) CPO Seat Then and Now

(11:06) Learning Together: The Secret Sauce of Success

(14:10) Sponsor - Attio

(15:06) Pulling top talent in a Competitive Tech Landscape

(19:24) The CEO's Role in Hiring: Ensuring Quality Over Quantity

(24:19) Scaling the Recruiting Team

(28:19) Mindset Shift from Recruiter to TA Leader

(30:11) Maintaining High Quality in Recruitment Amidst Challenges

(34:26) Balancing In-House and Agency Recruitment

(41:49) Succession Planning and Building Trust within Teams

(45:40) A Culture of Openness and Trust for Smooth Transitions

(50:49) What Really Makes a Great Company?

(57:10) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is all about getting promoted while playing the game of corporate politics, maintaining great relationships, and executing well in your role. In the second half, Kelli and Nolan discuss whether you can get promoted too fast.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com

--

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:36) What Drives Promotion Obsession?

(01:18) Get Your Foot in the Door, Then Climb the Corporate Ladder

(02:13) The Game of Corporate Politics and Relationships

(04:26) Get Used to the Politics…

(05:21) …But Don’t Be Like a Slimy Car Salesman

(06:21) Advocating for Yourself

(09:10) Sponsor: Attio

(10:05) The Double-Edged Sword of Rapid Promotion

(12:38) Framework for Employee Scaling

(14:51) The Dirty Secret of A Founder Not Doing Well

(16:48) Wrap

—

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about how to be recession-proof and share tactical advice on network-building for a resilient career.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:24) How to be Layoff-Proof

(01:00) Investing in Your Network and Building a Recession-Proof Career

(07:08) Practical Steps to Expand Your Professional Network

(10:02) The Job Doesn't Just Happen

(12:35) Sponsor: Attio

(13:32) Make Time to Keep Your Network Warm

(15:24) Expand Your Surface Area of Luck

(17:02) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Richard Ni joins Nolan and Kelli to discuss diving head first into a leadership role at Scale AI, a Series E AI startup that supplies data for AI models last valued at $7.3B.

From software engineer turned Head of People, Richard talks about his experience heading into a role with zero experience but with an aptitude for people where he needed to be honest with himself about his limitations and how this became pivotal in his learning. He also talks about the importance of building trust with the CEO and the value of self-reflection in career decisions. 

The team also chat about being the bad guy in HR and building thick skin around unpopular company decisions.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to hrheretics.substack.com and never miss an episode or segment.

--SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

--

]TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:56) From Software Engineer to HR Leader

(03:10) The transition from Cruise to Scale AI

(04:33) Leveraging Technical Background in HR and Recruiting

(06:22) Embracing Leadership Roles Early in Career

(11:17) The Power of Authenticity and Self-Awareness in Career Growth

(12:36) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(16:43) Building Trust and Navigating HR Challenges

(20:26) Learning from Mistakes and Valuing External Advice

(23:44) Mentoring

(24:22) Being the 'Bad Guy' in HR

(25:19) Finding Balance: The Importance of Safe Spaces and Ownership

(26:34) The Unpopularity of HR Decisions and Its Impact

(30:21) Learning from Mistakes and Self Reflection

(35:07) Valuing Your Own Happiness

(38:18) Creating a Culture of Openness and Trust

(43:09) Insights on Early Stage Hiring and CEO Involvement

(49:24) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan tackle the ongoing discussion around remote versus in-person work environments. They talk about the tradeoffs based on where you’re at in your career, the importance of questioning work environment structures, and encouraging listeners to consider what work environment aligns best with their current life phase.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:17) Remote vs. In-Person Work Debate

(01:16) Navigating the Remote Work Landscape

(03:36) Work in the Office if You're Young in Your Career

(06:50) Sponsor: Attio(07:46) Serendipitous Encounters

(08:50) Reflecting on Work-Life Tradeoffs

(10:33) Understanding the Seasons of Your Career(

12:16) Work Culture

(13:00) A Sudden Interruption

(13:08) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli chat all things “data from Carta” with Peter Walker, Head of Insights and Data Storytelling at Carta.

They discuss Carta’s comprehensive report on startup compensation trends in H2 of 2023 influencing the flow of “dry powder” and the alarming increase in startup shutdowns. Peter proves VC’s will have less leeway in 2024 to throw good money after bad forecasting an even tougher year ahead.

The team also discuss honesty in HR around equity structures, including liquidation preferences, and Peter offers advice for job candidates on evaluating startup offers with an investor's mindset. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro: Peter Walker and Startup Compensation Trends

(00:39) VC in 2023: Dry Powder and Capital Deployment

(03:02) 2023's Investment Distribution: Early vs. Late Stage

(07:43) Startup Shutdowns and Future Predictions

(11.13) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(12:09) The M&A Market for Startups

(15:05) The Impact of the Economic Shift on Startup Hiring and Industry Trends

(21:59) Job Offers in Today's Market

(22.30) Valuations and Equity in Job Negotiations

(24:07) Key Questions Candidates Should Ask About Equity

(25:34) Understanding Equity and Liquidation Preferences

(27:59) Transparency in Startup Equity

(30:17) Educational Resources and Support for Job Candidates

(34:22) Options vs. RSUs in Late-Stage Companies

(37:35) Startup Compensation

(41:21) The Equity Dilemma: Exercising Options and Market Realities

(42:32) Post termination Exercise Window

(43:49) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss “happiness police” overkill with Jeff Diana, former Chief People Officer of Calendly and Atlassian.

They talk about the importance of being clear on who you are as a business to avoid massive swings and over-rotations in current HR programs. Jeff believes it’s driving shareholder value that creates employment and that HR pros need to think more like investors and shareholders with focus on business impact rather than focusing on employee satisfaction alone.

Jeff also offers advice on being OK with saying no to a job that doesn’t “light you up”… and testing the alignment with HR philosophies and execution of business outcomes with the ones that do! 

He also offers advice on building a strong relationship with the CEO and is it better to report to a CFO or CEO if you’re aiming for that number 1 CPO role?!

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:24) The HR Market Today

(02:37) The Shift in HR's Role

(04:44) Understanding the Market Shift

(05:05) Changes in HR's Role Amidst Economic and Cultural Shifts

(09:23) Over-rotations in HR Programs including DEI and Employee Expectations

(11.40) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(14:19) Understanding Why Businesses Want To Cut HR

(19:05) Embracing Business Model Changes as a Leader

(23:00) Thinking Like an Investor

(25:45) Employee-Employer Dynamics

(26:52) Expectation Misalignment

(29:24) Realigning Business Focus: Mission, Values, and HR Opportunities

(33:23) Due Diligence in Career Moves and Hiring

(36:51) Building Relationships With The CEO 

(45:43) Board Dynamics and CEO Feedback

(49:39) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan discuss the news out of McKinsey this past week: generous packages for employees to opt out of their workforce. Is this a sign that there are no more golden tickets? Kelli and Nolan cover what this move says not only about McKinsey but about pedigreed qualifications more broadly. They also identify the key skillsets for this economy and the single most important thing you can do to make yourself recession-proof.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:53) The Opt-Out Strategy: A Personal Perspective

(01:52) Clarity and Transparency in Layoffs

(03:00) Business Continuity During Layoffs

(04:43) Rethinking the Value of Prestigious Institutions

(08:25) Sponsor: Attio

(09:22) Networking and Layoff-Proofing Your Career

(10:39 )The Changing Landscape of Employment and Skills

(13:35) Final Thoughts and Advice for Navigating the Job Market

(14:00) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss the audacious quest to change the HR market with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist of 15Five.

The team discuss the new reality of strategic HR business outcomes and the importance of developing and nurturing high-performance cultures and building great leaders, with the critical necessity of upskilling leadership development fast to adapt to new trends such as the addition of AI which will change the face of how we know HR today.

Adam also advocates for having courage and standing up for what you believe is true in the business and valuing the role of the Individual Contributor.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Subscribe to our substack: hrheretics.com

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Adam wrote the best selling book Lead Like A Human on leadership and culture: how to bring your full self to work and unleash your full potential.

HR Superstars podcast: https://www.15five.com/resources/podcast/

KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetadam/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(02:57) From Founder to Team Member

(03:09) Role Power In Practice

(04:51) HR Superstars Community

(05:26) Autonomy and Decision Making Post-Acquisition

(07:22) The Amplify Team's Integration and Evolution Within 15Five

(09:33) Old HR vs New HR: Changes and Expectations

(13:44) What CEO’s think

(15.23) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(16:40) Showing Courage and Backing Yourself

(21:11) Understanding the Business on A Deeper Level

(24:40) Superhero Mentality vs Delegator Mentality

(27:10) AI’s Impact on HR

(28:38) Upskilling and the Future of Work

(29:16) The Dichotomy of Company Strategies on Upskilling

(35:00) Celebrating Individual Contributors 

(41:00) Rethinking Best Practices and Embracing Experimentation

(43:32) Visibility and Sharing Wins and Losses 

(46.12) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli chat humanity in leadership with Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch (now part of Amazon). Michelle Weaver has 25 years experience including Hired (with Kelli), StitchFix, Axiom, Gap, Inc. and EA.

Michelle emphasises the importance of a human-first leadership approach and that growth and learning can come from the projects you work on, not just promotions. 

The team all agree that building a strong relationship with the CFO builds a strong business foundation and knowing the business you’re in makes you a stronger leader. They also advocate for taking the wins from experiences with bad managers by being the outcome you want to see.

Michelle also offers advice on selecting the company you want to work for and understanding the 'why' behind business numbers. She also goes deep on staying grounded through the M&A process and gives her own spin on personal growth and burnout in high-stress environments. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Get new episodes straight to your inbox: HRHeretics.substack.com.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-weaver/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:45) The Human Side of Being a CFO

(04:10) Rethinking Team Management and Development

(06:20) Promotions and Organisational Changes

(08:03) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(08:59) The Power of CFO and CPO Collaboration

(12.18) Structural Alignments Within The Company

(15.46) The CPO interviewing the CFO 

(17:16) Choosing the Right Company

(21:10) The Expansion of Gaming

(24:06) M&A Trends and Staying Grounded

(27:37) The Role of a CFO in Navigating M&A Challenges

(30:31) Deep Dive into the M&A Process

(32:45) Red Flags and Deal Breakers in M&A

(37:15) Addressing Burnout and Understanding What Your Passion Is

(42:59) How to Discover Your Passion

(48:00) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

HR Heretics bestie Colleen McCreary joins Kelli Dragovich for today’s segment to discuss a recent viral post about a VP People candidate who was denied a job because she didn’t wear makeup. Colleen and Kelli discuss the expectations and norms about appearance in the workplace and the nuances of providing helpful feedback to candidates.

—

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe at hrheretics.substack.com

—

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, KELLI + NOLAN ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

—

LINKS:

Viral Post: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/woman-says-she-denied-job-because-didnt-wear-makeup-aywoe/

Colleen’s Writing: https://medium.com/@colleenwheelermccreary

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Colleen Guests on Today’s Segment

(00:19) The Case of Melissa Weaver & Workplace Appearance Standards

(07:20) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(08:18) The Legal Perspective: Can Appearance Influence Hiring?

(10:18) Navigating Interview Feedback

(15:22) Authenticity at Work

(15:55) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment , Nolan and Kelli discuss new information about Shopify's Mastery Program. Employees are assigned a mastery score, and if their score does not increase, they do not receive a raise. They cover the implications of this new approach, comparing it to previous systems used by other companies which also relied on ratings and algorithms to determine merit increases, and discuss the concept of creating a zero-sum game in the workplace. While not exactly new, internal competition is front and center in Shopify’s transparent new approach.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery

Information article: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/shopify-employees-go-head-to-head-for-raises-in-new-ranking-system

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Shopify's Mastery Program

(04:34) Exploring the Broader Implications of Performance Review Systems

(08:59) A New Era of Performance Management and Employee Evaluation

(09:04) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(09:57) Nolan’s Time at Carta

(11:55) Commending More Experimentation

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This week Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Peterson Conway, headhunter, investor, and advisor who shares insights from his epic career working closely with Silicon Valley greats like Peter Thiel, Kevin Hartz, Keith Rabois, and Joe Lonsdale. Conway has assembled talent for the founding/early teams of Xoom, Palantir, Founders Fund, and 8VC

Strap in for some crazy stories. Conway's journey highlights the significance of curiosity, optimism, and unconventional hiring practices in Silicon Valley. Conway reflects on the profile of talent he looks for and drills down to certain keywords he uses to search for seeking individuals with strong convictions and a "fight from the bottom" spirit.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

--

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

LINKS:

Zero to 1 by Peter Thiel & Blake Masters: https://www.amazon.com.au/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296Butthole Notorious: https://pconway-73418.medium.com/butthole-notorious-e4ac4ff12db4

Peterson Conway: https://www.petersonconway.com/

KEEP UP WITH PETERSON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peterson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersonconway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(01:49) Intro

(02:41) Peterson's Unconventional Path to Silicon Valley Success

(09:23) Navigating Challenges and Learning from Silicon Valley Titans

(16:18) Exploring the Magic of Silicon Valley and Beyond

(18:56) Sponsor: Attio

(24:46) The Dynamics of Connectivity, Safety, and the Future of Work

(27:37) Exploring the Intersection of Fear and Love

(27:55) The Therapeutic Journey: From Fear to Healing

(28:13) On Guilt, Shame, and Vulnerability

(29:55) Unfiltered Conversations: Embracing Discomfort

(31:42) The Power of Silence in Communication

(32:26) Team Construction and the Quest for the Right Hire

(35:04) Recruiting: From Elite Schools to Keyword Searches for Grit and Determination

(39:14) The Role of HR in Shaping Company Culture

(43:36) On Unconventional Recruiting and Finding Hidden Gems

(50:19) The Art of Asking for Forgiveness, Not Permission

(50:41) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today's segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss Google firing employees who barricaded themselves in the CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Kurian's office for nine hours, to protest Google providing cloud computing services to the Israeli Ministry of Defense. Google CEO swiftly released a 'No Politics in the Workplace' message. The discussion explores the broader implications of protesting in the workplace, raises questions about protests and explores alternative ways to voice dissent without disruption.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) The Google Protest Controversy: An HR Perspective

(01:23) Analyzing the Protest: Tactics and Consequences

(02:35) The Fine Line Between Protest and Workplace Disruption

(06:13) Google's Response and the Shift in Tech Culture

(07:48) Sponsor: Attio

(11:31) Exploring Solutions and the Future of Workplace Politics

(14:19) Thoughts on Politics in the Workplace

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Kristy McCann Flynn, a seasoned HR professional with 25 years of experience, who shares her journey from working in traditional HR roles to founding SkillCycle, a company aimed at revolutionizing talent development and performance management.

The lively debate covers the evolving role of HR,  why HR software purchasing power might be changing, why  HR practitioners are doing it wrong if the 50% of their time is spent hearing staff concerns, and as ever, the fundamental importance of aligning HR initiatives with business outcomes.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

https://www.skillcycle.com/

KEEP UP WITH KRISTY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Kristy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmflynn/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:41) The Genesis of SkillCycle: A Response to Industry Frustrations

(01:17) Navigating Corporate America's Challenges and Changes

(03:29) Revolutionizing Talent Development

(04:20) Transforming HR and Talent Management

(04:54) Addressing the Skills Gap: A New Approach to HR Tech

(05:33) The Business Case for Investing in Talent Development

(09:04) SkillCycle's Strategy: Performance, Engagement, and Learning

(09:26) Skill Development vs. Hiring

(13:20) Sponsor: Attio

(16:31) Enabling Your Entire Workforce

(17:39) Investing in Employees Without Bias

(20:04) Burnout in HR

(24:18) The Future of HR and Shifting Focus to Business Leaders

(27:37) Strategies for Professional Development and Growth

(29:04) Navigating Budgets and Building Relationships with CFOs

(31:02) The Importance of Business Acumen in HR

(32:12) Redefining HR's Role Beyond Being a Complaint Department

(37:29) On Engagement and Pulse Surveys

(43:26) Transitioning from HR to CEO: Insights and Reflections

(47:31) Optimism vs. Pessimism in Leadership

(50:00) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the recent FTC ruling to ban non-compete agreements nationwide in the US, the broader implications of the ruling for employers and employees, and the future of AI and tech post-ban.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) FTC Bans Non-Competes Nationwide

(00:53) Personal Takes on the Non-Compete Ban

(01:13) The Surprising Impact of Non-Competes Across Industries

(02:49) Freedom and Innovation

(05:09) Balancing Trade Secrets and Employee Freedom

(07:33) The Future of Tech and AI Post-Ban

(10:41) Embracing Side Hustles and Innovation

(11:56) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli have an honest and transparent discussion with CEO and founder of Remote Job van der Voort (also the former VP of Product at GitLab) on the nuances of running an international remote company. 

Job strongly emphasises how trying to replicate the office environment in a remote setting doesn’t work and how giving small teams extreme autonomy with focus on outcome-based-management far outweighs surveillance and micro management. 

Kelli, Nolan and Job chat about early career growth and development in remote settings vs learning by osmosis in the office and how the company committed to developing new methodologies to mentor and train up juniors.

Job also gives insights into the complexities of global hiring, geography-based compensation, and geographic mobility for remote workers and discusses the impact it has on contracts and mutual obligations.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JOB, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Job: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobvo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Replicating Office Culture in Remote Settings

(06:45) Embracing Asynchronous Work and Team Autonomy

(09:48) Hiring and Training in a Remote-First World

(13:51) Innovative Remote Work Practices and Tools

(17:50) Addressing the Challenges of Remote Work 

(22:10) Remote's Approach to Documentation and Communication

(26:00) International Employment and Expansion

(26:54) Global Employment with Remote

(28:10) Global Compensation Strategies

(33:52) Equity and Performance in Global Teams

(39:40) Mobility and Compensation In Employee Relocation

(46:55) The Global Hiring Market and Future Trends

(51.24) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today's segment, Kelli welcomes back Janelle Lopez, discussing her recent career decision to take a second-in-command role at Coursera over the top Chief People Officer position elsewhere. She gives us an honest look into her decision-making, her networking efforts (75 meetings!), and how to assess a company for fit.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH JANELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Janelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:27) Career Decision: Chief People Officer vs. Number Two Role

(01:27) Networking

(04:29) Evaluating Opportunities

(08:04) The Real Power of Networking

(12:01) Biggest Lessons From the Job Search

(13:23) Janelle's Future Aspirations

(14:20) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan Church breaks down what is happening over at OpenAI and what we know about three developing stories involving exec departures, equity, and transparency. Kelli is on vacation this week. He touches on:

* The departure of Ilya Sutskever, co-founder and chief scientist, along with Jan Lieke

* The journalistic investigation by Vox's Kelsey Piper, who broke the story of OpenAI's practice of requiring departing employees to sign life-long non-disclosure and non-disparagement agreements, threatening the loss of vested equity for breach

* The incident involving Scarlett Johansson being approached to voice OpenAI’s AI, without her consent, raising questions about ethical use of voice likeness in AI technologies

Nolan debriefs with lessons for HR leaders and company founders.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) The Big Departures: OpenAI's Executive Shake-Up

(03:31) OpenAI's Controversial NDAs

(05:12) Sponsors: Attio

(08:21) The Scarlett Johansson Voice Saga

(10:04) The Future of OpenAI and HR Lessons

(10:50) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Nathan Tanner, an executive coach, author of The Unconquerable Leader, and former HR leader at DoorDash, Neighbor, and LinkedIn. Nathan demystifies the black box of coaching as a career path for people leaders, getting into the nitty-gritty of setting up the business, getting clients, and the economics of coaching. They also discuss the fine line between the empathy required of an HR leader, an executive coach, and a therapist.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NATHAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nathan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathantanner/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) Nathan’s journey into coaching

(02:53) Impact and philosophy of coaching

(05:25) Navigating the coach, HR leader, and client relationship

(13:08) What makes a great coach?

(15:52) Sponsor: Attio

(16:49) Assessing client’s perspectives

(21:49) Lifecycle of a coaching relationship

(24:29) Balancing revenue and client success

(26:03) Strategies and challenges of building a client base

(30:38) Economics of coaching

(35:33) Maximizing your coaching business

(39:34) Essential tools for success

(42:20) Value of transparency and resilience

(44:13) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli discuss an article from Business Insider about the ongoing white-collar recession, particularly affecting those earning over $100,000 a year.

They discuss significant changes in the tech job market, including the influence of AI, global competition, and the shift from managerial roles to more individual contributor positions. The episode concludes with insights into personal fulfillment versus financial stability in career choices.

Vanguard data reveals a hiring freeze for six-figure earners, impacting tech and finance. Is this the start of a white-collar recession?

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

—

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction to the White Collar Recession

00:30 The Dichotomy of Employment Data

00:48 Challenges for High Earners

01:56 The Big Stay and Trapped in Place Economy

02:34 Industry-Specific Impacts

05:21 Global Competition and AI's Role

06:23 The Future of Tech Employment

08:34 Personal Reflections and Career Changes

08:43 Sponsor: Workvivo | Attio

11:12: First-World Work Problems

13:02: Self-Reflection and Assessment

15:34: On Gratitude on Salaries and Roles

16:11 Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Casey Woo, a former public market investor turned 7x high-growth executive (including WeWork). He is now the founder of Operations Guild and General Partner at FOG Ventures. Casey shares eye-opening experiences from his time at WeWork and describes working with Adam Neumann, and the dynamics of rapid business scaling. They also highlight the impact of AI on business operations, the rise of the business operator, and discuss what skill-based ‘‘specialist generalists” do.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH CASEY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Casey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywoo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:14) Casey's journey and WeWork experience

(08:39) Lessons from WeWork

(14:19) Current Climate and Operators Guild

(19:48) Sponsor: WorkVivo |  Attio

(20:45) Current pace of AI development

(26:26) The Rise of the Operator

(35:03) Importance of generalists in business

(41:10) Building a Community: Lessons Learned

(44:42) Future of operators and founding businesses

(49:56) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dive into the devastating impact of toxic managers, featuring real stories of burnout, mental health struggles, and even suicide.

They delve into the misconduct of a Baidu executive who displayed horrific behavior towards her employees and the extreme pressures leading to suicides among investment bankers, highlighted by a tragic case at Bank of America.

From recognizing the signs of toxic management to building a strong support network, Kelli and Nolan offer actionable advice on navigating difficult workplaces and prioritizing your well-being.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

Related Articles:

* Top exec at Chinese search giant Baidu tells workers ‘I’m not your mom’ — then loses job

* Death of Former Green Beret (IB Associate at BofA)

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:37) Toxic Managers: Baidu Executive's Shocking Behavior(01:03) Toxic Managers: The Tragic Case of the iBanker(01:34) Kelli's Take on Toxic Management(04:26) Nolan's Perspective on Work-Life Balance(06:40) Sponsor Workvivo | Attio(09:19) The Impact of Fear-Based Leadership(11:15) Balancing Work Expectations and Employee Well-being(13:57) Encouragement and Community Support(16:17) An Element of EQ Is Necessary(19:19) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church welcome Michelle Delcambre, an operating partner at Felicis (and formerly of Stripe & Databricks), to discuss company growth trajectories, and strategic HR practices around talent, comp, and exits.

Michelle shares the development of Felicis’ ‘Benchmark Your Org' tool — which you can access here — it’s a free platform utilizing data from 15,000 companies, updated monthly, to help founders benchmark organizational growth. This conversation, which is one of Nolan's favorite episodes of the year, covers common founder mistakes and offers insights around pre-negotiated exit packages, comp strategies, company attrition, and so much more.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:Benchmark Your Org: https://www.felicis.com/benchmark

LINKEDIN:Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledelcambre/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(04:30) Actually useful benchmarks for founders(07:25) What metrics do people care about now?Boomerangs(09:30) Missing people data metrics(10:30) The talent vortex(15:35) Sponsors: WorkVivo | Attio(18:15) The anxiety of the “Regrettable attrition” metric and boomerang employees(23:07) Compensation challenges in startups(25:52) Tender offers and secondary markets(28:13) Innovative solutions for employee equity(38:41) Pre-negotiated severance and employee retention(43:56) Common mistakes founders make(49:36) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli explore the rising trend of replacing managers with coaches, examining the pros and cons of this model and its potential impact on employee development.

They also discuss the practicalities of implementing a coach-based management model, including the role of functional expertise and the need for rapid onboarding of coaches.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & The Big Changes in Tech

(01:40) Tweaking the System

(02:52) The NVIDIA Model: Pros and Cons

(04:14) One-On-Ones and The Middle Ground

(6:00) The Importance of Spontaneous Communication

(07:18) Sponsor: Attio

(08:15) Skillset and Capability Considerations

(09:09) Assessing Candidates for New Environments

(11:07) The Canva Model: External Coaches

(13:00) Executive Coaching vs Functional Coaching

(13:53) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan engage in a heartfelt discussion with Todd Olson, CEO and founder of Pendo.

Todd shares his personal and professional journey, from his early days as a developer to his current role as CEO. He provides deep insights into leadership, his unique hiring process, and why he believes HR is essential to business success where human connection and vulnerability are prioritized.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

HR Heretics podcast with JR Rettig: Building Legendary Teams: Trust, Transition, and Quality with JR Rettig of Pendo

LINKEDIN:Todd: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddaolsonNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(03:00) Typecasting and the importance of being the CEO

(05:00) Co-founder dynamics at Pendo

(09:00) The CEO card and cultural decisions

(12:00) Blending human elements with leadership

(16:00) The impact of personal life on leadership

(17:13) Sponsors: Workvivo | Attio

(19:47) Todd on Elon Musk

(21:00) Building a culture of followership

(24:00) Hiring practices

(27:00) The "why" behind joining Pendo

(31:00) Interviewing Senior SDRs

(34:00) CEO involvement in offer review

(37:00) Hiring executives

(41:00) The first 90 days of an executive

(45:00) The role of HR in 2024

(50:00) Hiring a head of HR

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Rippling is banning ex-employees who work at competitors from participating in a secondary stock offering. Is this ethical or a smart business move? Kelli and Nolan discuss the pros and cons of this controversial HR policy.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(01:26) Initial Reactions and Previous Examples

(03:07) Rippling's Justification and Cynicism

(04:31) The Zero-Sum Game and Company Messaging

(06:42) Openness vs. Pettyness & Employee Value

(07:42) Future Implications and

(08:50) Sponsor Break: Workvivo

(10:25) Regulatory Implications and Cam's Argument

(11:13) A More Brutal Form of Non-Compete & First Principles

(13:00) Rippling's Perspective and Understanding the "Why"

(13:58) Conclusion: Experimentation and Openness

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan and Kelli sit down with Lars Schmidt, Redefining Work podcaster, author, world of work content creator, and founder of Amplify Talent. Lars shares his journey from leading talent at NPR to establishing his voice as a creator, to founding his own advisory firm. Lars, Kelli and Nolan discuss the motivations for becoming a content creator, challenges in building a brand and community, and why in the age of AI HR practitioners need to be more selfish.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

—

KEEP UP WITH LARS, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Lars: https://www.linkedin.com/in/larsschmidt/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:26) Lars’ journey into content creation

(03:05) Transitioning to solo ventures

(05:25) Building an Empire: Writing, speaking, and more

(11:31) Importance of creating content for personal expression

(14:30) Sponsor: Metaview and Workvivo

(17:22) LinkedIn podcast partnership

(19:00) Downsides on being online

(22:23) Future of media and AI

(26:30) Handling content for HR community

(29:09) Sponsor: Attio

(30:06) Challenges and responsibilities in HR

(32:29) Importance of diverse opinions

(38:39) Navigating polarizing ideas in HR

(40:15) Amplify community and modern HR

(48:39 ) Traits of successful CPOs

(51:48) Generational shift in HR leadership

(54:34) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Scale AI's CEO sparks debate with "MEI" - is meritocracy a threat to diversity?

Kelli and Nolan, together with Richard Ni, Scale AI’s former Head of People, weigh in on the implications of this new hiring policy. Together, they discuss the role of meritocracy and company culture and offer actionable insights for HR professionals for talent acquisition and building a diverse workforce.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni-a5605543

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(02:09)  Richard's Perspective on MEI

(04:16) Kelli's Take on Meritocracy vs. DEI

(07:11) Nolan's Counterpoint: Meritocracy's Imperfections 

(09:06) The Importance of Transparency and Seeking Improvement

(13:00) Richard's Analysis of Scale AI's Motivation

(14:34) The Importance of Human Decision-Making and Corruption

(19:00) The Imperfections of Humans and Systems

(22:22) The Impact of Tech Giants on Expectations

(24:40) The Impact of Economic Pressure on Companies

(29:48) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Andrew Bartlow, a multi time VP of HR and co-founder of People Leader Accelerator. Andrew shares his extensive career from startups to Fortune 100 companies, the distinct challenges at each company stage across VC-backed startups and public companies, and the danger of being relegated to your HR island.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH ANDREW, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Andrew: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bartlow/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:06) Andrew's career journey

(02:49) Differences between company types

(06:57) Power structures and company culture

(12:26) Talent assessment in private equity

(17:47) Sponsors: Metaview | Workvivo

(20:39) Private equity misconceptions

(28:20) Sponsors: Attio | Warp

(30:11) Changing reputation of private equity

(33:11) CEO and Chief People Officer relationship

(37:07) Assessing CEO's expectations

(39:00) Concept of HR island

(41:34) Engagement metrics: A critical view

(44:58) Challenges in HR leadership

(46:13) Engagement surveys: Pros and cons

(54:56) Exec comp debate

(01:00:51) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit with Michelle Wagner as she shares her journey from Chief People Officer at AOL and Evernote to becoming the CEO of MindStrong, a healthech company.

Michelle, who may be “N of 1” in the CPO to CEO company trajectory, discusses her early career, the challenges she faced in different leadership roles, and the strategic decisions she made during her tenure as CEO of MindStrong.

This candid conversation offers valuable insights for HR professionals and aspiring leaders, highlighting the multifaceted responsibilities and realities of executive leadership — plus what the job search looks like after you’ve been a CPO and a CEO.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support our amazing sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

--

KEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledwk/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:52) Nostalgia and Beginnings at AOL

(04:43) Evernote: Peaks and Challenges

(08:46) The Unexpected CEO Transition at MindStrong

(12:50) Navigating Chaos and Rebuilding: The First Year as CEO

(15:00) The Tension of a CEO Transition: Navigating Dynamics and Loyalty

(16:42) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(19:23) The Tension of a CEO Transition: Navigating Dynamics and Loyalty (continued)

(29:06) The CEO Learning Curve: Mastering Business Acumen and Facing Vulnerability

(33:03) Heartbreak and Determination

(33:44) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(35:49) The Acquisition Process: Balancing Patient Care, Investor Expectations, and Team Stability

(40:30) Finding the Next Chapter and Overcoming Preconceived Notions

(41:52) Career Reflections and Future Plans

(47:00) The Unfairness of Expectations on CPOs

(55:26) The Power of Transparency: A Case Study in Building Trust and Respect

(1:03:11) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this 4th of July special episode of HR Heretics, hosts Kelli and Nolan discuss the hurdles of taking vacations, particularly in the context of modern HR practices.

They explore the challenges and strategies of making use of unlimited PTO, the importance of setting regular boundaries for mental health, and the importance of planning ahead for time off. They also discuss the importance of training your colleagues to enforce your vacation, deleting Slack off your phone, and recognizing false urgency.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:02) The Vacation Dilemma

(00:42) Unlimited Vacation Policies

(01:23) Personal Vacation Strategies

(02:26) The Importance of Taking Breaks

(04:45) Setting Boundaries and Expectations

(10:06) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:29) 4th of July Plans

(15:04) Wrap

(15:12) Sponsor: Workvivo | Warp

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan is joined by regular guests/friends of the pod Colleen McCreary (Ribbit Capital) and David Hanrahan (CPO, Flare) to unpack Alexandr Wang’s MEI stance at Scale AI, the growing backlash against DEI initiatives, and a discussion of how businesses can move forward productively from this debate.

The conversation also touches on the new culture deck from Netflix! If you haven’t listened to HR Heretics episode #1 where we interviewed Patti McCord, architect of the first Netflix culture deck, queue it up right after this episode.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support Our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

—

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, DAVID, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

00:33) Meritocracy Needs a Rebrand

(02:19) Challenges of Meritocracy

(04:22) Real-World Examples and Hypocrisy

(06:38) Striving for Alternatives

(09:21) DEI and Meritocracy: Are They at Odds?

(15:15) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(19:15) Transparency and Context in Leadership

(21:35) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(34:34) Final Thoughts and Call for Unity

(36:17) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nick and Kelli sit down with Nick Cromydas, CEO of Hunt Club, and discuss the executive search evolution, leveraging technology, and AI. His company Hunt Club uses a network of thousands of leaders to find the perfect candidate, revolutionizing the traditional search firm model. Nick, Kelli, and Nolan discuss common negotiation points and terms surrounding executive compensation, equity, and the importance of transparency and feedback in hiring processes.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

—

KEEP UP WITH NICK, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cromydas

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Hunt Club: https://www.huntclub.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:19) Founding Insight of Hunt Club

(02:21) How Hunt Club Works

(06:57) The Role of Technology and Human Element in Executive Search

(10:14) Executive Severance Negotiations

(14:49) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(20:31) Equity and Compensation Insights

(26:13) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(28:04) The Importance of Upfront Process

(32:00) Effective Executive Interview Processes

(34:46) The Value of Working Sessions

(36:42 )The Importance of Executive Feedback

(48:31) Evolving Trends in Executive Search

(52:42) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss Meta's latest round of VP cuts which raises questions about the future of big tech jobs and the impact of efficiency initiatives on employees.

Is Meta's large number of VPs hindering efficiency? Listen as Kelli and Nolan discuss the impact of bloated management structures in big tech, the future of leadership and management, and their insights on how to prepare for a changing job market.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:04) Meta's Push for Efficiency

(02:03) Employee Perspective on Job Security

(03:30) Company Perspective on Executive Roles

(06:01) The Issue of Title Inflation

(08:04) Navigating the Job Market

(08:55) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(13:08) Networking and Career Advice

(15:15) Concluding Thoughts

(15:26) Sponsor: Warp

(16:27) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire.

How is the tech talent landscape evolving, and what are the challenges and opportunities that come with these changes? Listen as Heather shares insights from their State of Talent report, uncovering shifts in location trends, Gen Z job hopping, and the truth about AI's impact on hiring. Plus, hear why "remote ready" is more important than ever and why Heather calls out the reliance on pedigree and college degrees in hiring, arguing for a more skills-based approach to talent acquisition.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

RELATED EPISODE:

Tomasz Tunguz on Hiring the Right Talent, Firing the Wrong Execs, and Navigating M&As

* Substack

* Apple

* Spotify

—

KEEP UP WITH HEATHER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINHeather: https://www.linkedin.com/in/doshay/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS

SignalFire: https://www.signalfire.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(00:20) Heather Doshay's Career Journey(01:39) SignalFire's State of Talent Report(03:13) Geographic Talent Shifts(08:06) Gen Z vs. Gen X Workplace Trends(12:52) The Value of College Education(14:41) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(17:25) Job Descriptions and Requirements(24:53) Challenges of HR Leadership(28:36) Challenges of the Chief People Officer Role(29:49) The Complexity of Hybrid Work Environments(30:54) Navigating Remote Work During the Pandemic(31:58) The Future of Remote and Hybrid Work(34:15) AI in Recruitment: Transforming Hiring Processes(34:32) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp(41:22) Common Mistakes in Early-Stage Companies(42:40) The Problem with Over-Leveling Titles(50:27) Rethinking Pedigree in Hiring(54:38) The Impact of AI on Jobs(56:18) Wrap 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss the reality of PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans).

Are PIPs genuine efforts to help employees or a company CYA tactic? Kelli and Nolan explore the misuse of PIPs, arguing that they should be a last resort, not the first step in addressing performance issues. Listen to their insights as they discuss PIP alternatives, like the "fork approach," focusing on open communication and employee empowerment over PIPs.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(03:12) Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs)(01:46) Pips As A Forcing Function And The Misuse Of The Process(05:06) The Misconception on PIPs(06:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(08:00) The "PIP or Package" Approach and its Alternatives(13:21) Surviving PIP(16:38) Advice for Employees Facing PIP

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Chris Vasquez, Investor and Founder of Quantum Talent, and discuss the insane AI talent market, executive hiring, and the future of work in a world where AI is rapidly changing everything.

Hear their insights on the dynamic AI talent market covering the evolution of tech trends, challenges in hiring, the changing dynamics of diversity and merit, and the race for top talent.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-vasquez-66137553/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Quantum Talent:

https://www.quantumtalent.io/

Related Post:

Alexander Wang’s LinkedIn Post on Meritocracy at Scale

The Architect of the Paypal Mafia: Peterson Conway

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:25) The Evolution of Tech Recruiting

(02:00) Impact of AI on the Job Market

(03:41) Challenges and Opportunities in AI

(06:06) The Competitive AI Talent Market

(07:06) AI Strategies and Realities

(07:57) The AI Gold Rush

(10:39) Winning in the AI Talent War

(22:01) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(25:51) Diversity and Merit in Tech

(26:56) The Importance of Diverse Personality Traits

(27:39) Meritocracy and Bias in Hiring

(28:25) Challenges and Changes in Defining Diversity

(29:42) The Role of DEI in Companies

(31:38) Balancing Company Culture and Performance

(36:03) Sponsor: Metaview | Warp

(40:34) The Future of AI Executives

(44:05) Advice for Job Candidates

(50:10) Emerging Trends in Tech and Beyond

(52:41) Conclusion and Final Thoughts

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss how HR teams can break out from behind the curtain and be a proactive force for good within the organization.

HR can be more than just a reactive function. Learn how HR teams can demonstrate their real impact on the business as Kelli and Nolan share tips for increasing visibility and showcasing your team's value.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) The Importance of Feedback

(02:17) Mediocre vs. Amazing Work

(03:07) Employee Awareness of HR Functions

(04:41) Town Hall Presence: Communication and Transparency

(05:01) Engagement Surveys

(06:06) The Importance of Transparency - The "Sausage Making" Analogy

(06:35) AMA Example - Comp Transparency

(08:30) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(11:09) The Art of Compensation

(12:19) Transparency is Scary but Necessary

(13:00) Explaining the "Why" - First Principles

(14:00) Time Commitment and Building Trust

(15:18) Strategic Vulnerability and Humanization

(16:40) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos for his insight into how AI is transforming recruiting -- and creating unexpected leverage for teams that know how to use it.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/?originalSubdomain=uk

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Metaview:

https://www.metaview.ai/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(06:51) The Pain Points of Traditional Hiring

(10:59) Interviews are Broken

(14:20) Conversations are Key

(14:26) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(17:00) The Future of Hiring

(20:00) Conversations in the Future

(21:59) The Evolution of the Recruiter

(24:34) Legal and Accuracy Considerations

(25:57) AI as an Iron Man Suit

(27:50) AI's Next Level: Detection & Trends

(29:31) The Power of Data

(30:41) Sponsor: Metaview | Warp

(32:00) Metaview's Value Proposition

(35:00) The Efficiency Drive

(36:55) The Future of Hiring Tech

(39:23) The Importance of Product Management

(41:00) Metaview's Roadmap

(44:01) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich weigh in on a listener's question (shoutout Karissa!) about implementing 'bar raiser' interview programs at her Series D company. Are they worth the hype, or just an HR trend? Kelli and Nolan dig in.

You too can email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:21) Implementing a bar raiser interview process

(00:57) Amazon's Bar Raiser Program

(01:36) Rebranding the "Bar Raiser" Process

(02:42) The Amazon Approach

(03:24) Avoiding Bias & Alternative Approaches

(04:46) DoorDash's Experience

(06:00) Challenges & Trade-offs

(07:18) Sponsor: Metaview | Workvivo

(08:16) DoorDash's Shift From the "Bar Raiser" Program

(10:18) Alternatives & First Principles

(12:31) Addressing CEO Expectations

(13:25) Bias & Homogeneous Cultures

(14:44) The Role of CEOs & Founders

(15:19) Diligence & Feedback

(17:21) Going Slow to Go Fast

(18:17) Misaligned Expectations

(19:10) Start Small & Experiment

(19:33) Wrap

(19:47) Sponsor: Planful

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss The New York Times article making waves this past week: "So Human Resources Making You Miserable". Nolan and Kelli dissect the article's claims, share their own experiences and what they're hearing from other leaders, and discuss the disconnect between HR and the rest of the org.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

New York Times: So, Human Resources Is Making You Miserable?:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/03/business/human-resources-professionals-workplace.html

Referenced book:Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up:

https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Therapy-Kids-Arent-Growing-ebook/dp/B0CBYHTV2D

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:15) "HR Making You Miserable" Article(01:22) HR Community Reactions & The Past Few Years(02:43) HR vs. The Rest of Business(06:20) Taking Ownership and Spreading the Love(08:24) HR's Role & Shifting Expectations(11:00) Learning from Other HR Leaders & Changing the Mindset(13:08) Experimentation and Collaboration(14:23) Communicating with CEOs and Setting Boundaries(14:38) Sponsors: Metaview | Workvivo(15:08) Training Leaders and Changing the Culture(17:06) Relationship Debt and Resetting the Relationship(19:32) The Power of Mentorship and External Help(22:23) Sponsor: Planful(22:33) The Sixth Sense & Influencing Key People(24:54) Taking Responsibility & Shifting Your Worldview(26:33) Resilience and Managing Emotions(08:00) Focus on Solutions(30:00) The Impact of Personal Well-being on Work(31:48) Building Resilience & Prioritizing Yourself(33:10) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss the dramatic shift in the tech industry's work culture. They explore how the once-glamorous perception of tech jobs, filled with lavish perks and easy success, has given way to a more challenging reality.

While this transition is painful, it may ultimately lead to a healthier, more sustainable tech ecosystem with professionals who are truly committed to building the future.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(02:03) The Contrast: Past Tech Perks vs Current Reality(03:30) Changing Perceptions: From Love to Hate in Tech(04:43) Sponsor: Planful(05:41) Expectation vs Reality: The Tech Industry Illusion(07:51) First Major Downturn: Impact on Young Tech Workers(09:21) Silver Lining: Creating Better Leaders Through Adversity(11:28) The New Normal: Reaching Equilibrium in Tech Industry(12:11) Wrap(12:48) Sponsor: Metaview | WorkOS(15:30) Outro

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli are joined by Joelle Emerson, CEO of Paradigm, to discuss why diversity numbers aren't improving quickly in companies and the challenges in measuring DEI progress.

This episode explores the complexities of measuring impact, discusses the trade-offs of long-term strategies, and offers insights for navigating the current backlash.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH JOELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Joelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelle-emerson-4a24225

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Paradigm:

https://www.paradigmiq.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) Paradigm's mission and work in diversity and inclusion 

(01:55) Discussion on slow progress in diversity representation 

(03:48) Long-term investments in diversity initiatives 

(06:52) Measuring progress and acknowledging small wins in DEI 

(10:47) Adapting DEI work in response to backlash 

(14:37) Importance of effective messaging in DEI efforts 

(14:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(17:26) Distraction from the Backlash

(27:28) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(27:55) Legal considerations and challenges in DEI work 

(30:51) Discussion on problematic hiring practices in DEI 

(34:43) Turning down clients who don't align with DEI values 

(36:37) The role of dedicated DEI teams in organizations 

(39:29) Echo chambers and polarization in DEI discussions 

(44:38) Trade-offs in DEI investments and hiring processes 

(47:38) Debate on blind auditions and diversity in hiring 

(49:45) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about "back channels" in the hiring process.

They dive deep into this controversial practice and how back channels can impact candidate selection, emphasizing the need for a thoughtful, mature approach that considers the full context of a candidate's experience and potential.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) - Intro

(00:54) - Defining back channels as "underground mafia" of feedback 

(01:52) - The right way to do back channeling 

(03:03) - Maturity in back channeling conversations 

(04:12) - When to do back channeling

(05:43) - Avoiding the "back channeling frenzy" 

(06:42) - Timing of back channeling in the hiring process 

(07:55) - Sponsors - Planful | Workvivo

(10:48) - How to properly conduct a back channel inquiry 

(12:04) - Sponsor - Metaview

(13:40) - Typical back channel communication methods 

(14:50) - Real example of a nuanced back channel situation 

(15:59) - The "family reunion" analogy for bias in back channels 

(17:18) - Importance of considering human growth in back channels 

(18:31) - Handling negative back channel feedback 

(20:05) - Using back channel feedback as a litmus test for candidates 

(20:53) - Criticism of board members' approach to back channels 

(21:51) - Shallowness in high-level back channel feedback 

(22:45) - Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church sits down with Valentina Gissin, former Head of Talent at Bridgewater and current Chief People Officer at Garner.

Valentina shares the lasting lessons and people practices from working under Ray Dalio at Bridgewater, Garner's unique approach to the interview process, and her approach to hybrid work, manager training, L&D, and performance reviews. Valentina offers an absolute masterclass in innovating hiring and people strategies.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VALENTINA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Valentina: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinagissin

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Garner Health: https://www.getgarner.com/

Principles by Ray Dalio: https://www.principles.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Valentina's Experience at Bridgewater

(01:27) Dot Collector and Feedback System

(09:38) Managing Hybrid Work Environments

(11:27) Commitment to Remote Work and Hybrid Teams

(16:21) Managing Global and Synchronous Work

(18:15) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(20:03) Improving Interview Training through Recording

(22:06) Getting and Giving Signal in the Interview Process

(25:38) The Correlation Between Structured Critical Thinking Questions and Successful Performance

(28:18) Creating a Feedback Culture at Garner

(30:49) Sponsor: Metaview

(31:03) The Role of Performance Reviews in Compensation and Data Gathering

(36:21) Using Real-World Simulations in Manager Training

(45:55) Designing a Function for Difficult Performance Situations at Garner

(46:16) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich tackle knowing when it's time to leave a job -- considering factors such as energy levels, learning opportunities, and impact. They cover the art of giving notice, protecting your financial interests, and nurturing professional connections when moving to a new opportunity.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:55) Recognizing It's Time to Leave(03:54) The Importance of Networking and Taking Recruiter Calls(06:57) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo(09:59) Job Tenure and Career Narratives(12:53) How to Put in Notice(16:55) Sponsor: Metaview(18:55) Vesting and Financial Considerations When Leaving(19:53) Maintaining Relationships After Leaving a Company(22:53) Closing Thoughts and Lessons Learned(23:01) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Dr. Vijay Pendakur, DEI expert, author, and principal and founder of Vijay Pendakur Consulting, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich to discuss the current pushback against DEI, the future of the movement, and how companies can find success in a shifting landscape.

How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value?

Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and exchange ideas for how to evolve diversity initiatives for impact.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network: https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VIJAY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Vijay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaypendakur

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

“Closing the Opportunity Gap”

https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Opportunity-Gap-Identity-Conscious-Strategies/dp/1620363127

Watch out for “The Alchemy of Talent: Leading Teams to Peak Performance” available for pre-order: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Talent-Leading-Teams-Performance/dp/B0DCHB9RYZ/ref=sr[…]d=1724904614&refinements=p_27%3AVijay+Pendakur&s=books&sr=1-1

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:28) Current state of DEI and recent pushback from various sectors

(03:12) Analysis of DEI investment timeline and systemic unfairness

(05:26) Higher education's response to DEI legislation and demographic shifts

(08:38) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(09:58) Challenges in measuring DEI progress and impact

(12:48) Misunderstandings and Semantics

(17:55) Corporate vs. Social DEI

(22:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(26:38) Scope of care in corporations and how COVID impacted DEI initiatives

(35:12) Challenges in measuring DEI impact and focus on hiring metrics

(40:41) Team effectiveness and the role of inclusion in high-performance teams

(45:00) Impact of diversity on team performance and manager effectiveness

(50:25) Future of DEI programs and evolving role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

(53:38) Reframing DEI for business performance and organizational effectiveness

(55:00) Discussion on colorblindness and meritocracy in business contexts

(57:03) Critique of MEI framework and the need for ongoing DEI interventions

(58:10) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk about ‘Founder Mode’ a concept coined by YC founder Paul Graham in a recent essay — based on a talk by Brian Chesky, founder of Airbnb. They discuss how founders feel gaslit by advice to delegate without micromanaging, and that the right approach IS a ruthlessly hands-on approach. The hosts explore the tension founders face between maintaining control and trusting hires, emphasizing the need for empathy. This is a sign that the paradigm is shifting, and all business leaders need to adjust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK:

Founder Mode https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) What is Founder Mode?

(03:59) Empathy for Founders

(04:54) The Role of Executives and Operators

(07:19) Blending Founder and Manager Mindsets

(09:56) Defensiveness and Personal Growth

(11:45) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:50) Kelli’s Best Take Ever?

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Guissu Baier, a talent expert at General Catalyst who navigated the treacherous waters of startup equity compensation at Instacart, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich challenging conventional wisdom about refresh grants, and revealing that most companies lack a clear strategy.

Is it time to ditch the old-school "wait and see" approach and embrace a more performance-driven model?

Listen to Guissu, Kelli and Nolan as they offer insights into how to bridge the gap and foster collaboration between legal and HR teams.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH GUISSU, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Guissu: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guissu/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

General Catalyst:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/

General Catalyst's Equity Refresh Survey:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/perspectives/equity-refresh-survey-2024

Related Podcast:

How Big Should Your Org Grow

https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/how-big-should-your-org-grow

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Key Findings of the Equity Refresh Survey

(06:03) Treating Equity as Carefully as Cash

(07:11) Vesting Schedules and Equity as a Long-Term Incentive

(08:23) The Debate on Vesting Cliffs in Refresh Grants

(09:46)The Logic and Challenges of Refresh Grants

(11:43) The Importance of Paying for Performance

(14:34) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:40) Challenges in Designing Equity Refresh Programs

(19:07) Different Approaches to Refresh Grants

(25:24) Retaining Top Performers

(28:51) Connecting New Hire and Refresh Ranges

(29:25) Equity Choice and Fairness

(30:49) Equity Trade-Offs and Innovation

(32:57) Collaboration between HR and Other Departments

(37:11) Facilitation as a Key Skill for HR Leaders

(40:28) Branding and Executive Involvement in Training

(43:30) The Reputation of Lawyers in the HR Profession

(44:54) Risk Calculus and Cultural Risk

(46:02) Communication as a Key to Problem Solving

(47:37) One-Way Door and Two-Way Door Decisions

(47:55) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

US white-collar promotions are down 24% in Q1 2024, with a near 50% drop since 2022. What does this mean for employees and the job market?

Kelli and Nolan discuss causes, including pandemic effects and company restructuring, and talk about strategies for retention and career growth in a restructured, doer-focused workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK:

Report: Promotions disappeared in Q1 2024

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:16) Promotion Data Analysis

(01:15) Discussion on Promotion Trends

(03:49) Impact of Economic Changes on Promotions

(06:39) Future of Job Market and AI

(07:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(09:55) Continued Discussion on AI and Job Market

(16:27) Final Thoughts and Advice

(16:43) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Is context switching hurting your HR productivity? Kelli and Nolan talk about how leaders effectively navigate multiple roles and explore practical techniques for maximizing productivity in HR to build an adaptable team.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED:

Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) Challenges of Multiple Roles

(01:45) Navigating Different Relationships

(03:14) Setting Boundaries in Conversations

(04:49) Balancing Work and Personal Life

(05:36) Building a Strong, Adaptable Team

(07:52) Maximizing Meeting Effectiveness

(08:50) Prioritizing Tasks and Self-Care

(09:00) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:36) Reducing Digital Distractions

(11:33) Better Meetings

(12:14) The Power of Phone Calls

(14:33) Walking and Talking

(15:45) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

You've got your daily team, the folks you work with every day, but then there's the executive squad. Patrick Lencioni’s "Five Dysfunctions of a Team" says that should be your true loyalty, but how does that translate into practice? Nolan and Kelli talk about navigating those tricky waters and avoiding toxic team vibes when the big boss throws down some tough choices.

Explore how HR pros can keep things from blowing up when the executive team calls the shots.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED BOOK:

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable by Patrick M. Lencioni

https://www.amazon.com/Five-Dysfunctions-Team-Leadership-Fable/dp/0787960756

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The "First Team" Concept

(01:09) Balancing Executive and Functional Teams

(03:07) Importance of Organizational Alignment

(05:58) Handling Team Disagreements with Executive Decisions

(07:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:02) Avoiding Toxic Leadership Behaviors

(11:44) Explaining Decisions to Teams

(13:52) Value of Transparency in Leadership

(15:11) Addressing Team Members' Concerns

(17:01) Managing Team Turnover and Succession Planning

(18:06) Preventing and Addressing Team Toxicity

(18:36) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Thinking of swiping right on a colleague? Find out with Kelli and Nolan if workplace romance is worth the potential awkward elevator rides and why mixing power and passion is a recipe for corporate disaster.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(01:16) Workplace Relationships

(03:01) Why Dating Within Reporting Chain is Improper

(05:17) Company Policies on Office Relationships

(09:15) Hypothetical: CEO Dating a Junior Employee

(09:33) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:31) Leaders Dating Employees from Different Departments

(16:18) Disclosing Relationships Between Colleagues

(18:29) Handling Unwanted Advances from Coworkers

(19:02) The One-Ask Rule

(20:04) Codifying Relationship Policies

(21:38) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Amazon CEO Andy Jassy announces return to office policy, sparking debate on workplace culture and employee expectations in tech industry.

Will Amazon's RTO policy lead to increased employee turnover and a decline in morale? Listen as Kelli and Nolan explore the implications of these changes on workplace culture, employee expectations, and the broader business landscape.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

RELATED EPISODE:

Everyone’s Talking About Founder Mode

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS

(00:20) Andy Jassy's Letter on Culture

(01:50) Two Big Changes at Amazon

(03:00) Amazon's Employee Growth

(04:40) Innovation and In-Person Work

(05:10) Trade-offs of Remote Work

(06:00) Clarity in RTO Communications

(07:56) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:10) Exceptions to RTO Policy

(11:40) Top Performers and Exceptions

(13:20) Business Reality vs Expectations

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This episode of HR Heretics dives into the treacherous waters of giving feedback to friends without capsizing relationships.

Candid feedback or comfortable silence? Kelli and Nolan dissect the art of critiquing colleagues, challenging listeners to reconsider their approach to workplace honesty. Discover why your ego might be your own worst enemy, and learn how to transform awkward conversations into opportunities for growth.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

BOOK MENTIONED:

"Ego is the Enemy" by Ryan Holiday:

https://www.amazon.com/Ego-Enemy-Ryan-Holiday/dp/1591847818

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(01:14) A Real-World Example: Kelli's Feedback to Nolan

(02:27) Nolan's Response: The Importance of Inquiry

(04:56) Building Relationships Through Honest Communication

(06:36) Ego as a Barrier to Effective Feedback

(07:34) Challenging Perceptions: The Curious Leader

(08:46) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(10:50) Learning from Blunt Feedback: Nolan's Robot Story

(13:36) Using Humor to Ease Feedback Conversations

(14:31) Overcoming Perfectionism and Job Security Fears

(15:44) Reframing Feedback: Alternative Conversation Starters

(16:42) The Golden Rule of Feedback: Reciprocity in Communication

(17:58) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This HR Heretics segment dives headfirst into the controversy surrounding Mr. Beast's leaked 36-page employee manual.

Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as as they unpack this viral document that's part survival guide, part corporate manifesto, with a dash of unapologetic ambition. Is it a brilliantly authentic approach to leadership or a recipe for workplace burnout?

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) Mr. Beast's leaked document

(03:58) Praising clarity in workplace expectations

(05:06) Discussing document accessibility 

(07:04) Authenticity in company culture

(09:10) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:13) Speculating on the document's origins

(13:02) Learning from negative experiences

(13:57) Authenticity in leadership

(16:13) The role of authenticity in attracting talent

(20:53) Balancing critique with appreciation for clarity

(21:42) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, dive into the world of HashiCorp's HR innovation with Christine Centa, as she unveils the challenges of scaling a remote-first culture, navigating post-IPO transitions, and embracing AI in recruiting.

Discover with Kelli, Nolan and Christine how transparency, data-driven decisions, and a willingness to swear occasionally are reshaping modern tech workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CHRISTINE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Christine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-centa-0a809b7/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Hashicorp:

https://www.hashicorp.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:59) Christine's Approach to HR and Compensation Trends

(03:40) Compensation and Equity in a Macroeconomic Environment

(07:12) The Importance of Recruiter Feedback

(07:35) Compensation and Internal Equity

(10:49) The Challenges of Changing Equity Plans

(11:30) The Trade-Offs of One-Year Grants

(12:27) Balancing Retention and Performance

(12:37) Stepped Approaches to Equity Grants

(15:57) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(18:02) The Importance of Transparency and Frequent Check-Ins

(18:52) Predicting Attrition and Hiring

(19:57) The Shift to Publicly Traded HashiCorp

(20:08) Scaling Processes and Maintaining Culture

(23:25) The Remote Work Debate

(31:34) Championing Successes and Addressing Concerns

(35:15) AI Strategy in HR and the Challenges of AI Deployment

(37:16) AI in Recruiting

(40:15) Candidate Adaptability to AI

(42:58) The Hidden Work of AI Deployment

(43:06) The Emerging Role of AI Specialists

(43:59) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

As tech giants like Microsoft dismantle DEI teams, this segment probes the industry's true commitment to diversity. Are we witnessing the death of corporate DEI or its evolution?

Kelli and Nolan dissect the disconnect between lofty promises and marginal progress, questioning whether current approaches are effective, and challenge listeners to envision a "Chapter Two" for DEI—one that prioritizes authentic inclusion over mere metrics.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:20) Microsoft Fires DEI Team: A Growing Trend in Tech

(01:01) Conflicting Messages: Microsoft's DEI Stance Analyzed

(03:16) Evaluating DEI Tactics: A Decade in Review

(04:26) Early Intervention: Google's Approach to Long-Term DEI

(05:42) The Missing Piece: Lack of Alternative DEI Strategies

(07:28) Questioning Tech's DEI Commitment

(08:10) Recognizing DEI's Cultural Impact

(09:40) Chapter Two of DEI: Hoping for Creative New Approaches

(10:32) Sponsor: Metaview

(11:43) Progress in Workplace Inclusivity

(13:35) Rethinking DEI Implementation

(14:10) Leading the Way in DEI Innovation

(15:31) The Need for Qualitative DEI Measures

(16:15) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Seasoned executive recruiter and venture capitalist Andy Price joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for an inside-the-room look at the intricate dance of hiring, retaining, and evolving top-tier talent. Andy has assembled leadership teams for companies like Snowflake, DocuSign, Confluent, Amplitude, and ServiceNow.

From the critical role of empathy in leadership transitions to the long-term value of investing in talent development, Price's insights challenge listeners preconcieved notions about hiring and maintaining world-class execs. This episode is a compelling exploration of how the right people, in the right roles, with the right support, can transform good companies into great ones.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Andy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Artisanal Ventures:

https://artisanalv.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39)Why is the hit rate for execs so low?

(03:47) How to mitigate a bad executive outcome

(04:18) The Artisanal process to mitigate a bad outcome

(07:44) Back channels in executive recruiting

(11:05) When should a CEO back channel?

(12:40) How many back channels are too many?

(14:00) Dealing with personality fit issues after hiring an exec

(16:34) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:46) The importance of onboarding and post-hire support

(18:47) How to vet search firms

(22:37) Name-dropping in executive recruiting

(25:13) Founders trying to run searches on their own

(29:05) The importance of staying close with search firms

(30:13) Hiring for experience vs. trajectory

(34:16) The importance of orchestration in executive transitions

(35:40) The role of ego in executive transitions

(36:13) Involvement of layered executives in the interview process

(38:53) Setting expectations for layered executives

(39:22) The importance of studying successful executive transitions

(40:40) How to help up-and-comers scale

(43:03) The importance of advisors and coaches

(45:36) Executive career management

(48:43) Executive tenure and the importance of grit

(51:17) Importance of doing meaningful work before seeking new roles

(51:55) Importance of authenticity in the executive world

(52:38) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In a world where AI blurs the line between genuine skill and digital deception, HR professionals face an ethical minefield. As candidates leverage AI to cheat interviews and fake applicants infiltrate tech companies, the very fabric of recruitment is being tested.

Kelli and Nolan explore the unsettling convergence of technology and human ambition, challenging us to redefine trust, authenticity, and competence in the modern workplace.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Candidates Cheating on Interviews with AI

(02:40) Interviewing is High Stakes

(04:07) AI is Getting Better

(05:21) AI Native Candidates

(06:49) The Importance of Human Qualities

(7:44) Sponsor: Metaview

(08:56) Quality Over Quantity

(10:18) Referrals and Bias

(11:04) Soft Skills Are Hard to Replace

(11:17) Fake Candidates

(12:43) The Need for Verification

(13:36) Poor Recruiting Practices

(14:02) Proof of Personhood

(14:32) A Chasm of Technology

(15:15) Expect the Unexpected

(16:02) Awareness is the First Step

(16:19) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Peter Walker, Head of Insights at Carta, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich for a round 2 discussion to talk about the hidden currents reshaping the startup world.

From the brutal reality of today's hiring landscape to the unexpected reasons top companies avoid IPOs, Walker challenges conventional wisdom, exploring how the "Big Stay" phenomenon and emerging equity models are redefining employee-company relationships.

With startling data on fund performance and company shutdowns, this conversation poses a provocative question: Are we witnessing the end of the startup golden age, or the birth of a new, leaner ecosystem?

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Carta:

https://carta.com/data/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:29) Hiring Market Remains Brutal(05:06) Tenure Correlation in Layoffs(10:08) The "Big Stay"(10:15) Sponsor: Metaview(11:27) Venture Ecosystem Driven by Investor Returns(15:34) M&A Activity is Rising(17:22) Emerging Fund Managers Under Pressure(19:37) Employee Compensation Trends(21:16) Company Valuations(25:13) Dissonance Between IPO Market and Public Market Performance(29:14) Series A and Beyond Round Activity(32:05) Resetting Expectations in Venture(37:38) Emerging Models for Employee Equity(40:23) Equity Returning to the Pool(42:16) The 90-Day Exercise Window(43:48) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this candid episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan dive deep into workplace burnout and share vulnerable insights on maintaining resilience in high-pressure roles.

From conquering impostor syndrome to escaping the corporate echo chamber, they offer practical strategies—like daily routines, nature walks, and building authentic relationships—while reminding leaders that it's okay not to have all the answers.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:20) Practical Approaches to Reducing Burnout01:48) Key Insights on Managing Professional Burnout(05:01) A Perspective on Failure(07:14)  Confronting Negative Self-Talk in High-Pressure Roles(08:36) Sponsor: Metaview(09:48) Importance of Saying "I Don't Know"(10:17) Finding Balance: Avoiding Professional Extremes(12:53) Breaking Free from the Corporate Echo Chamber(14:08) The Signifiance of Strong Relationships(15:13) Sharing and Collaboration(16:34) The Tangible Nature of Energy(17:07) Understanding Energy's Impact in the Workplace(18:17) Gaining Fresh Perspectives Through History & Experience(19:00) Practicing Gratitude in Professional Life(20:09) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli talks with Silicon Valley prodigy turned seasoned operator and former Google director Jared Fliesler.

From revolutionizing feedback systems to challenging the "founder mode" hype, Jared shares raw insights from his journey as Silicon Valley's youngest executive.

But that's just the beginning – he also unveils the psychological trap keeping high achievers perpetually unfulfilled (hint: it's not what you think), and shares the counterintuitive secret to genuine satisfaction.

Whether you're a startup founder, HR leader, or ambitious professional, this episode will fundamentally change how you think about performance, leadership, and success. Warning: your perspective on workplace traditions will never be the same.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredsf/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

First Call Coaching:

https://www.firstcall.co/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:59) Radical Performance Review Process 

(06:18) Getting the CEO on Board

(08:48) People Operations as Core Business

(10:20) The Move Away from Performance Reviews

(10:50) Feedback Systems for Introverts

(12:07) The Semantics of Performance Reviews

(12:48) Experimenting with Performance Reviews

(13:52) Founder Mode

(19:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(20:10) Copy-pasting Culture Decks

(20:54) Revolt Against Traditional Management

(21:46) Fandiger Mounder

(22:16) Treating People Like Wrists

(24:14) Being the Youngest Person in the Room

(27:37) The Importance of EQ

(28:42) Layoff Experience

(30:35) The Ego Trap

(32:38) Founder Coaching

(33:03) Jared's Coaching Practice

(37:21) Hiring and Firing in Hyper Growth

(37:54) Hire With Speed, Fire with Respect

(42:00) The Cost of PIPs

(43:04) The Importance of Respect

(43:52) The Hedonic Treadmill

(48:06) Gratitude as the Antidote

(48:22) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan discuss "empty suit executives" – a term coined by product leader Tyler Hogge, highlighting executives who manage from above but scoff at doing the work themselves.

Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sleeves might be the new key to power in modern business.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

The Empty Suit Executive by Tyler Hogge

https://tylerhogge.com/2024/10/16/the-empty-suit-executive/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:29) The Empty Suit Executive

(03:43) Shift in Management Styles and the Rise of Doers

(05:34) Clash Between Founders and "Empty Suit" Executives

(06:17) The Changing Dynamics of Large Tech Companies

(07:17) Venture-Backed Companies as a Bellwether

(09:00) Sponsor: MetaView

(10:06) Recognizing Our Own "Empty Suit" Tendencies

(11:30) Building a Brand and Leading by Example

(12:40) New Era of Leadership

(13:30) Adaptability in a Competitive Landscape

(14:04) The Rise of AI

(14:36) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Former Dashlane HR leader Ciara Lakhani shares her unfiltered journey from New York to Paris tech, debunking myths about French business culture while revealing the art of cross-cultural leadership. From smoke breaks with works councils to earning trust through authenticity, Ciara offers practical wisdom on navigating international business dynamics and building bridges between American and French work cultures.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Ciara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciaralakhani/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Elevate People:

https://elevatepeople.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) Ciara's move to Paris in 2020

(04:54) Challenges of being an HR exec in another country

(05:53) Stereotype against French HR people

(07:08) Communication style in France

(08:30) Assimilating with French HR professionals

(10:30) Generalizations about France

(11:45) Learning the nuances of French labor laws

(13:35) Navigating HR in different countries

(15:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:18) Punitive government in France

(18:39) Being a translator in HR

(19:50) Working with lawyers

(20:45) Org politics in France

(23:04) Unpacking the co-founder story

(23:50) Org navigation and politics in Paris

(27:30) Earning trust in a new culture

(29:50) French tactics and meeting people where they are

(30:00) Ciara's transition to being independent

(31:38) Assimilating into French culture

(33:00) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

On Election Day 2024, Nolan and Kelli examine how to navigate an increasingly polarized workplace during a contentious election. They discuss the decline of 'presidential' discourse, the impact of social media on political rhetoric, and practical strategies for business leaders managing divided teams.

Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The Election and Preparing for a Divisive Outcome

(04:00) Supporting the Winner

(05:10) Homogeneous Support and the Undoing of Progress

(08:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:35) Social Media and Mental Health

(10:20) The Addiction of Election Results

(11:25) The Importance of Routine and Mental Health

(12:20) TikTok and Chaos

(12:21) Confusing Voting Laws

(12:53) Historical Context and Election Integrity

(14:00) Navigating a Divided Workplace

(14:25) Setting Expectations Before the Election

(18:04) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Today Kelli and Nolan tackle a real-world HR career challenge: a candidate who received feedback that while they could handle their current role, the hiring manager was unsure about their ability to scale with company growth.

Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of their career narrative.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) Dear Heretics Question - Scaling HR

(02:45) Understanding Hiring Manager Requirements

(04:24) Focus on Aptitude and Mindset

(04:58) Recruiters' Current Challenges

(06:13) Anticipate Feedback and Be Proactive

(07:00) Highlight Strengths and Address Gaps

(07:35) Proactive Preparation for Interviews

(08:22) "Show Up With A Solution"

(08:40) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:52) Value of HRBP Experience

(10:47) Don't Underestimate Your Experience

(11:02) Narrative is Key

(11:25) HR and Sales Parallels

(11:46) Focus on Personal Narrative

(12:13) Gain Experience Inside Your Company

(13:36) Turn Feedback into Growth

(14:05) Architect Your Own Experience

(14:18) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

How do you lead product when your CEO is the product visionary? Pendo's Chief Product Officer Trisha Price reveals the delicate dance of setting boundaries with founder-CEOs, the evolution of HR from gatekeeper to strategic partner, and why she uses AI to write letters to her 102-year-old grandmother. A candid conversation about power, trust, and the changing face of tech leadership.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Trisha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Navigating a Founder-CEO, Product Guru Dynamic

(03:00) Establishing Boundaries and Trust

(06:40) The Importance of a Lengthy Recruiting Process

(09:40) Assessing Product Leaders

(14:40) Managing Stakeholder Input and AI Pressure

(17:50) Managing the Tension Between Sales and Product

(20:10) Navigating the AI Hype Cycle

(24:20) Tricia's Personal Use of AI

(26:40) Emerging Female Executives in Tech

(30:40) The Future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I)

(36:00) The Evolution of HR and the "Department of No"

(40:50) Working with a Great HR Leader

(43:40) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies.

In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?

Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering practical insights on navigating these challenges. The conversation balances protecting employee rights with managing unfounded claims, providing valuable perspectives for HR professionals and business leaders trying to build fair, transparent workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:10) Rising Employee Litigation

(03:25) Traditional & Contrarian Responses

(06:10) Deeper Issues & Lack of Transparency

(07:30) Subjectivity & Company Liability

(09:30) Litigation as a Trend & Setting Expectations

(11:40) Employee Perspective & Open Dialogue

(15:40) Company Burden & Employee Expectations

(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(18:10) Clear Expectations & Self-Selection

(21:40) Internal Training & Consistency

(23:20) Value of Community & Legal Counsel

(26:10) Key Takeaways & The Bambi Golden Rule

(28:08) Wrap

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com