Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers (Stephen Seckler: attorney career, marketing and leadership coach)

The practice of law has evolved a lot in the three decades since I graduated from law school. Technology has replace many monotonous functions and computers have replaced paper.  The internet has revolutionized how legal research is done and how law firms market themselves.  It has enabled remote work and interaction in a way that was unimaginable in the 1980s.

At the same time, there are some fundamental things that have not changed.  The practice of law is still a service business that requires a lot of human interaction.

Law firms are still challenging places to work. Clients can be demanding, the stakes can be high, and the billable hour can create unwanted incentives.

In addition, lawyers like their autonomy.  Managing a group of lawyers is not for the faint of heart and takes a skill set that is very different than the skill set needed to practice law.

So what do you need to know to be an effective law firm leader?  How can you inspire partners, associates, paralegals, and administrative staff to give it their all?

Kristi Royse joins me in this episode to answer those questions.

Kristi Royse is the CEO of KLR Consulting.  She is a nationally recognized speaker, facilitator, management consultant, executive coach, and trainer. Since 1987, Kristi has been coaching executives to be stronger leaders and helping organizations optimize their most vital resource - their people. Kristi works with law firms and other organizations to help their leaders build the skills they need to thrive in rapidly changing circumstances. She helps leaders, teams, and leaders-to-be tap their potential, improve their leadership abilities, and strategically shift their perspective.

We talk a lot on this podcast about marketing and career management.  While great lawyers have great technical skills, getting the work you want and advancing your career, requires a different set of skills. The same is true for lawyers who move from being an individual contributor to taking on leadership roles in their firm or in their corporate law department.

In this episode, I speak with an expert on how to make a successful transition into leadership.  We discuss the things you should be thinking about if you have already made that move.  Whether you are chairing a department for the first time, new to the role of managing partner at your firm, or promoted to general counsel, this is a great conversation for you.

My guest, Steve Smith is the President of GrowthSource Coaching, an Orange County CA based business and executive coaching company.  Steve serves business professionals that want to become extraordinary leaders and savvy business owners.  He has coached nearly 600 clients over 14 years and enjoys moments when his clients gain the clarity that lets them know they can achieve what they want.  He has worked with many lawyers, and I am very pleased to say that he is my own coach! 

Attorney well-being continues to be a hot topic in the legal community.  While the most severe effects of the pandemic are now behind us, mental health continues to be a significant issue in our profession. But there is a lot being done to address these challenges.

To provide some context, several years ago, the Report of the Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being, issued by the American Bar Association, Conference of Chief Judges, and other legal organizations, called well-being an essential element of a lawyer’s duty of competence. In Massachusetts, Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers plays a vital role in supporting attorneys, and the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts has established a Standing Committee on Lawyer Well-Being to enhance the well-being of lawyers, judges, and law students in the Commonwealth.

In this episode, my former colleague, Amy Levine discusses the many initiatives going on in Massachusetts and around the country.  Amy is the Director of Programs and Volunteers at Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers (LCL) of Massachusetts. Amy has over 20 years of experience in the legal industry.  She has worked in in marketing, human resources, and legal recruiting and has a background in social work.   In 2018, Amy was one of the first guests on this podcast where she talked about interviewing.

At LCL, Amy creates programs for the Massachusetts legal community and provides customized educational programming for various legal organizations. She also recruits and manages LCL’s volunteers, who assist in running recovery groups, provide peer monitoring services, and act as ambassadors for the organization.

We discuss the critical role of Lawyers Assistance Programs around the country, the extensive range of services offered by LCL, and the impact these programs have on lawyer well-being.

Anyone who knows me knows that I’m a big consumer of podcasts.  For me, podcasts are a significant part of my own ongoing professional development. 

As someone who is not a big reader, I have also found podcasting an entertaining way to keep up on law, politics, marketing, and a host of other subjects that interest me including behavioral economics, psychology, mindfulness, true crime, health, and pop culture.

And so I was very excited to stumble upon The Lawyer's Edge Podcast a few years ago.  My guest, Elise Holtzman, is the host of that podcast and I’ve now become a regular listener. I was even fortunate enough to be one of Elise’s guests last year.

More importantly, I have been learning a LOT from Elise and her guests about a broad range of career and marketing topics.

Lately, Elise has been focusing a lot of her conversations on the advancement of women in the law and given the depth of Elise’s own knowledge on the subject, I thought it would be great to invite her on to talk about some of the challenges that women face when trying to advance their careers.

We talk about how the pandemic has impacted women, how her coaching helps women and non-women alike to develop the non-practice specific skills they need to be successful.

Elise Holtzman is a former practicing attorney, certified executive coach, and the founder of The Lawyer’s Edge, where she and her coaching team help lawyers become better business developers and leaders.

Elise began her career as a commercial real estate attorney at two AmLaw 100 firms.  She brings a deep understanding of the practice of law (and the demands of operating a firm) to her work.

Elise frequently speaks  and writes on the subject of business development and career acceleration and as I already mentioned, she is host of a GREAT podcast.

Additional Resources

Episode 68-Are there Gender Differences in Legal Marketing?—What Men and Women Can Learn From Each Other About Building a Law Practice

We have spoken a lot on Counsel to Counsel about the importance of building business relationships. But we have not spent much time discussing how to turn those relationships into actual paying work.

In this episode, I am joined by Gary Johnson who understands a lot about selling legal services.  We discuss a series of common hypothetical situations where there may be opportunities to generate business.  Gary walks us through the process for identifying needs and doing so in a way that does not exert pressure on a client, prospective client, or referral source.

Gary Johnson is President of J2 Marketing Consultants. He helps attorneys get more profitable clients. Gary’s experience building strategies and applying proven techniques offers an effective way to help attorneys grow their practice by bringing in ideal clients. He provides the tools needed to focus his clients on building value when approaching prospective clients. Gary makes the process easy, and I can vouch for that.

Artificial Intelligence continues to be a big unknown in the legal space.  It holds tremendous promise for streamlining the delivery of legal services and is already being deployed to expedite discovery, to help draft contracts, to assist with client intake, and to streamline many other functions that once required a lot more human labor. 

AI is now being used by some lawyers to help assess the strength of their cases, to expedite legal research, and to draft pleadings.

I know that I myself am using ChatGPT to help me prepare for presentations, craft social media posts, and to get quickly up to speed on an array of subjects that are of interest to my clients.

 At the same time, the use of AI raises legitimate ethical concerns. It also raises concerns about the need for so many lawyers. 

But according to my guest, Hamid Kohan, AI won’t replace lawyers.  It will replace lawyers and other professionals who don’t use AI.

Hamid Kohan is a serial entrepreneur, public speaker, and author of the book How to Scale Your Stupid AI Law Firm.

Hamid started his career in silicon valley where he served as Director of Business Development of Sun Microsystems, working alongside Eric Schmidt who is today the CEO of Google and Carol Bartz  the CEO of Yahoo.

More recently, Hamid saw an opportunity to bring his expertise in technology and business development to the legal world, and he founded Legal Soft Inc. in 2016.

In this episode, Hamid will answer some questions about where we are in 2023 with the use of AI in the practice of law.

Other Resources

Episode 107-ChatGPT and Trends in Legal Marketing Technology-with Jared Correia

 The Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Reader Rankings Awards are out, and I’m pleased to report that once again, I did very well.

This year I came in first for Lawyer Outplacement and for Business Development Coach.  I also came in second for Executive Coaching.  So the subject of awards is top of mind for me this week.

I’m happy to be in the winner’s circle and very thankful for the great clients and colleagues who took the time to support me.

But do awards really matter?  Listen in to this episode of Counsel to Counsel for my analysis.

Job interviews can cause a lot of stress.  Over the years, I’ve come to appreciate that this is true whether you are the candidate or the interviewer.

The stakes can feel high.  Both sides are trying to assess whether they are right for each other.  The candidate may be imagining that they are interviewing for their dream job. They may be worried about the competition.

The interviewer may have a desperate need to fill a role and there are few candidates with the right mix of skills and personality.  Or worse, they made a bad hire and they are now trying to fix the problem.

But just like dating, neither side will really know what it is like to be married until they are actually living together.

So what are some ways that candidates and employers can prepare for a good interview?  What can candidates and interviewers do to make themselves more attractive to each other? How can candidates and employers get the information they need to make an informed decision about whether to extend an offer or accept an offer?

In this episode, I have invited two seasoned recruiters who share their collective wisdom.

 Both are members of the in-house legal recruiting team at the search firm Major Lindsey and Africa.

Amy Katz is a returning guest on Counsel to Counsel.  Amy recently rejoined the team at Major Lindsey after spending a year recruiting in-house for her old employer Outside GC.  I last spoke to Amy about her journey from big law to in-house to OutsideGC, and finally into recruiting.

Amy’s career experience includes over 25 years as a practicing employment attorney. Prior to joining MLA the first time, Amy was a Member at Outside GC, advising employers on a wide range of employment law matters, conducting workplace and academic investigations, and designing and delivering compliance training. Before that, she served as senior employment counsel for Genzyme Corporation.

Today, she focuses on recruiting general counsel and other in-house attorneys in a wide range of industries, most notably life sciences and technology.

My second guest is Amy’s colleague, Nancy Reiner who spent over 20 years in private practice including stints at two major firms.  She last served as a partner at Brown Rudnick where she worked on business, environmental and public interest litigation.

Nancy has been in the legal search business since 2008.

Today she is the leader of the Boston In-House Counsel Recruiting team for MLA where she focuses on placement of general counsel and other in-house counsel for public companies and private businesses, major global corporations and disruptive start-ups, hospital and other healthcare systems, and colleges and universities.

Nancy has placed close to 100 senior-level leaders in corporate legal departments throughout New England and across the country.

Additional Resources

• Tips for a Successful Job Interview-Live and Virtual
  
• Episode 5-Nailing the Job Interview
• Episode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz

The pandemic was a mixed bag for me. As some of my listeners know, both of my parents died of COVID in April 2020. While that was very sad, it wasn’t tragic. My dad was 95, my mom was 94, neither suffered, and neither knew the other one was gone.

At the same time, the lockdown created some great new opportunities to expand my network both here in New England and throughout the country.

Zoom existed long before COVID. But going on-line in March of 2020 dramatically expanded my professional connections.

Through my ProVisors business network, I met hundreds of great professionals in every corner of the United States. I now coach clients in New England, New York, Texas, South Carolina, Chicago, California, and Seattle.

Beyond that, I’ve also met some other great people thanks to virtual platforms including today’s guest Rudy Rivera. Rudy is Chief International Counsel at Fidelity National Financial. He has extensive international litigation and business experience in Latin America, Europe, and Asia.

I reached out to Rudy after listening in on one of his live streaming presentations. The subject was leadership and Rudy and his guest did a great job of offering some very practical advice. I reached out to Rudy afterwards to thank him, and he responded right away. He suggested that we speak and soon after we did.

Since that time, I have listened in on a number of Rudy’s shows, Conversations With Rudy Rivera, and we have spoken about his career, his humble beginnings, and what it is like to manage counsel around the globe. I thought his story would be of great interest to my audience.

In this episode, Rudy tells his story and offers up some great career advice for younger lawyers.

If you listen to this podcast or spend any time around me, you know that I am an enthusiastic member of ProVisors, a nationwide business networking group that is home to some great lawyers, accountants, financial planners, bankers, and many other trusted advisors. The thing I love most about the group is that I get to meet great professionals from all over the country.  One of those individuals who I met early on was Frank Rudewicz. 

If you meet Frank, it won’t take you long to like him. He is the consummate professional who truly enjoys what he does. He is clearly invested in the success of those around him. And from his days at the FBI, he has great stories.

I invited Frank on the show because Frank has deep experience doing investigations.  Since some of my audience are lawyers looking for alternatives to the traditional practice of law, I thought it would be great to have Frank on as a guest.

In this episode, Frank and I talk about how he got to where he is today. He shares some thoughts about why lawyers make great investigators and offers some tips for anyone thinking about making a transition.

Frank Rudewicz specializes in forensics and litigation support at the accounting firm CliftonLarsonAllen.  He has more than 30 years of experience conducting domestic and international investigations for fraud, forensic accounting, asset tracing and other litigation-related matters. He has appeared on NBC Dateline and Forensic Files for his investigative work.

Frank is experienced in expert witness testimony and is the co-author of a book on Forensic Accounting and Fraud Investigation for Non-Experts.  Prior to joining CLA, , Frank served as Principal, Counsel and Partner-in-Charge of Forensic, Litigation and Valuation Services for several national accounting firms and Senior Managing Director and Counsel for an international risk consulting and investigative firm, as well as Vice President of a Super Regional Financial Institution. Earlier in his career, Frank spent 14 years in law enforcement with the Hartford Police Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Additional Resources

• Episode 77-Going Solo with Employment Law and Workplace Investigations
• Episode 19-Canoeing vs. Whitewater Rafting-A Career Conversation With Jose Sierra

Aging baby boomers now fill the senior ranks of many law firms across the United States. Because of this, hundreds of partnerships will be facing succession planning issues in the next decade. How can firms make successful transitions and ensure the long-term viability of their practices? How will senior partners transition their clients to younger partners, so the clients are well served in the future? How will the next generation assume responsibility for managing the firm of tomorrow?

Underpinning all this is a reality: Lawyers are living longer, lawyers have very strong professional identities, and many senior lawyers are not doing a good job of planning their own transitions. A lot of lawyers have worked hard for so long that it is difficult to imagine what might fill the void if they were to leave or cut back.

What will these attorneys do when they are no longer chairing a department or actively serving clients they have worked with for decades? What are some of the creative strategies that lawyers have used to figure out what comes next?

My guest Ida Abbott has thought a lot about the subject and has put together a great resource for helping senior lawyers to address these challenging existential issues. On today’s show, we will be talk about her book Retirement by Design and we discuss some of the practical considerations for lawyers who are further along in their careers.

Ida is a leader in the field of talent management and an internationally recognized expert in the areas of mentoring, sponsorship and the advancement of women into leadership. As a lawyer and consultant to the legal profession, she has focused on the power of mentoring relationships to guide, support and transform professional careers from the beginning of practice through retirement.

Other Resources

• Succession Planning for Your Career: What Comes Next?
• Episode 62- Financial & Career Planning for Senior Attorneys
• Episode 61-Succession Planning With Senior Attorney Match
• Episode 58-Managing Your Exit (Career Succession Planning-- with Bill Lahey, Esq.)
• Episode 40-Succession Planning for Law Firms Meets Chapter 3 for Lawyers

In the legal profession, AmLaw100 law firms get most of the attention.  With eye popping salaries now being given to first year associates, it is easy to conclude that getting one of these jobs means you are at the pinnacle of the legal profession.

While starting your career at a major firm has a lot advantages salary, and otherwise, the open secret is that many lawyers who work at these firms will end up leaving by the time they are midlevel associates. Some will go in-house, some will go to the public sector, and others will go to smaller firms.

I’ve spoken to many lawyers who have stayed and continue to have fulfilling careers. But in my experience, many of these lawyers are much happier after they leave. 

And the happiest lawyers are attorneys who have gone in-house or who have launched their own practice.

In this episode, we talk about the latter.

The decision to open your own practice is a daunting one. Lawyers as a group are somewhat risk averse. But it has never been easier to operate on your own or in a small partnership. Technology has made that so much easier.

And I can say as a solo entrepreneur myself, that the rewards are many.

Setting up your own shop requires a new mindset. Launching the practice is the first hurdle. But at some point, most lawyers want to grow or at least make their firms more profitable. Part of that is finding ways to generate more revenue. But another big part of that is finding ways to operate with greater efficiency.  Setting up better systems is important as companies grow and law firms are no different.

In a great conversation, Mark Rockwell,talks about how to do that.

Coach Rockwell, works with lawyers who are frustrated by their inability to scale up and become more profitable. He helps them create their vision, and implement an operating platform that builds healthy, thriving law firms. He is a graduate of Willamette University College of Law, and Northwestern University, Kellogg School of Management.

Mark is both an attorney and entrepreneur. He has started and grown several companies during his career, and he has struggled with the same frustrations and setbacks all lawyers and business owners experience.

I really enjoy stories about lawyers who have taken their careers on a less traditional path. I especially enjoy speaking with lawyers who have done some very unlawyerly and more entrepreneurial things. At the same time, I’m always looking for guests who can speak to my audience about alternative ways to practice, particularly when it involves better work life balance. My guest in this episode, Erin Giglia,  has deep knowledge about both subjects.

Erin practiced at several major firms in Southern California until she co-founded Montage Legal Group in 2009. Montage Legal Group is a nationwide network of experienced contract/freelance attorneys with impressive credentials from top law schools and training in prestigious law firms. Montage’s attorneys assist law firms with temporary and substantive legal projects on an hourly basis, providing a cost-effective way to manage case overflow.

Erin talks about building her business. She also discusses how lawyers, particularly women, can get back into the work force after an extended break.

We talk a lot on this program about finding ways to build a more satisfying legal career.  While many attorneys are drawn to the profession because they care about justice, they like the idea of becoming a trusted advisor, or they just enjoy the intellectual rigor of being an attorney, status and money are important too. 

But if you are like me, one of the reasons you chose law school rather than business school is because math is not your jam.

If you are a lawyer who has been practicing for a few years and thinking about your financial health and your financial future, you may have questions about paying off your student loans or figuring out how much to start saving for retirement.

Maybe you aren’t sure how to organize your finances now that you are planning for life’s big events like buying a house or starting a family.

Maybe you are thinking about eventually starting your own law practice and you aren’t sure how to get your financial house in order.

James Grace has joined me for a very practical conversation about managing your finances as you get past the early stages of your legal career.

Jim is the Director of Wealth Management for Silver Pine Capital.  Jim worked at regional wealth management agencies and banks before joining Silver Pine.  Jim describes himself as an educator, coach, motivator, confident, coach.  He is also the host of the Modern Financial Wellness podcast.  He is also someone I've gotten to know, like, and trust through my ProVisors business network.

Additional Resources

• Episode 62- Financial & Career Planning for Senior Attorneys
• Episode 93-Planning for Retirement with Julie Jason, The Discerning Investment Advisor

When I speak to lawyers about the changes they would like to make in their careers, there are a number of repeating themes. One theme I often hear from litigators is that they are tired of the conflict and petty discovery disputes. They are frustrated in having to deal with opposing counsel who seem more interested in winning than in justice. 

One path for these lawyers is alternative dispute resolution.

So where is mediation today and what are the career opportunities for lawyers who want to shift their careers in that direction?  In this episode, Amy Mariani answers that question. Amy Mariani is someone I would trust unequivocally if I were involved in a conflict. She is practical, knows how to take the temperature down in a conflicted situation and is someone who knows how to quickly build trust and rapport.

For twenty years, Amy tried cases in the areas of employment, personal injury, and breach of contract.  She began, mediating part time in 2014 and since 2016, she has done it full time.

In this episode of the Counsel to Counsel podcast, host Stephen Seckler is joined by Jordana Confino, a certified professional coach and founder of JC Coaching & Consulting. Together, they explore the pervasive issue of perfectionism within the legal profession, discussing how it often leads to anxiety, burnout, and career stagnation. Jordana shares her personal journey from practicing law while grappling with perfectionism to discovering the transformative power of positive psychology, which helped her redefine success and well-being in her career and life.

Jordana delves into the cultural and psychological roots of perfectionism in law, explaining how it can hinder career growth and creativity despite being viewed as a badge of honor in the profession. She outlines effective strategies for overcoming perfectionist tendencies, including self-compassion, distanced self-talk, and setting healthy boundaries. Through science-backed techniques and her own experiences, Jordana provides valuable insights for lawyers looking to achieve sustainable success and fulfillment without sacrificing their mental health.

 Additional Resources 

• Self-Compassion Guide — Jordana Confino
• Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL
• Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the Law

Lauren Rikleen knew from a very early age that she was destined to become a lawyer.  She was the one in her family who was always questioning. She was the one who was always concerned about injustice. One of her earliest childhood memories was trying to stop bullying on the playground.  

Today, Lauren is President of the Rikleen Institute for Strategic Leadership.  She is a nationally recognized expert on developing a thriving  diverse and multi-generational workforce.

I recently sat down with Lauren to reflect on her career and what she has been doing since she left the practice of law. 

Lauren was a guest on one of the first episodes of C2C where she spoke about success strategies for women in the legal profession. I invited her back to update us on her work since then and to talk about what inspired her to do the work she now does. She is an inspiration to me and to many women in the legal profession!

I speak to a lot of lawyers who are interested in moving into in-house roles. While not every in-house lawyer is happy leaving private practice, on the whole, I find that the in-house lawyers I meet have higher levels of career satisfaction.  In-house lawyers generally don’t keep track of their time, at least not in the same way.  And while the hours can still be demanding, lawyers who work in corporate law departments often have more predictability.

In-house lawyers also enjoy having an ongoing relationship with a client that they get to know on a deeper level. And for many in-house counsel, being the company lawyer means the opportunity to participate in more business decisions.

The path to in-house is clear for corporate lawyers.  Employment attorneys also have a relatively easy time moving in-house. But for litigators, the path is less obvious.

In this episode, I speak with Evan Slavitt, a former litigator who has some great advice for litigators looking to go in-house.  I recently reconnected with Evan after many years and after we spoke for a while about his experience as a General Counsel. I quickly realized that I had to have him on the show.

EVAN is the Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Corporate Secretary for KYOCERA AVX Components Corporation in South Carolina. Before joining AVX, Evan spent many years in private practice where he concentrated on complex commercial litigation and white-collar criminal defense.  He also did a stint at the US Attorney’s office in Boston in the 1980’s. I met him during that time when I was a law student working as a clerk in that office.  Evan can be reached at evan.slavitt@kyocera-avx.com,

Starting your own law practice is a bold and rewarding move, but it comes with its share of challenges. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Stephen Seckler sits down with Chris Earley, a Massachusetts-based personal injury attorney and business coach, to discuss lessons from his journey building the Earley Law Group from scratch. Chris shares insights from his ABA article, "Five Mistakes to Avoid When Starting Your Law Practice," and offers actionable advice for attorneys looking to take the leap into entrepreneurship.

Chris recounts the early days of his practice, launching in 2005 with no cases, money, or connections, and the hustle it took to get his firm off the ground. He emphasizes the importance of networking and creative marketing, lessons he learned the hard way. Chris also reflects on how shifting his mindset from being a lawyer to being a business owner transformed his approach to growth. From leveraging his last name in branding to building a strong referral network, Chris’s story is packed with practical tips for standing out in a crowded market.

The episode also explores the evolution of personal injury law, including trends like safer cars and self-driving technology that are reshaping the field. Chris discusses the challenges of scaling a practice, managing stress, and staying present for his family. Whether you're a new lawyer considering starting your own firm or an experienced practitioner looking to refine your approach, this conversation will inspire and equip you to navigate the path ahead with confidence.

Additional Resources

Five Mistakes to Avoid When Starting Your Own Law Practice (ABA membership required)

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Stephen Seckler is joined by Susanne Aronowitz, a senior consultant with Beard Strategies and a Professional Certified Coach, to discuss career transitions and job satisfaction for lawyers. Susanne shares her journey from employment attorney to career coach, offering insights drawn from her 25 years of experience. Together, they explore how lawyers can address career dissatisfaction, identify whether issues are fixable within their current role, and recognize when it’s time to move on. Susanne also provides actionable advice on navigating involuntary job loss, reframing layoffs as opportunities for growth, and leveraging networking for successful transitions.

The conversation covers strategies for improving job satisfaction, such as proposing changes to employers, adjusting responsibilities, and exploring complementary practice areas. Susanne highlights the importance of self-care and managing negative self-talk during career transitions, as well as practical steps for processing emotions and maintaining professionalism in the face of job loss. Packed with valuable tips and inspiring success stories, this episode offers a roadmap for lawyers seeking fulfillment and balance in their careers. Don’t miss Susanne’s expert guidance on turning challenges into opportunities! For more information, visit Susanne's website or contact her directly.

Additional Resources

• Strategies for Prioritizing Well-Being in Attorney Job Searches and Career Development
• Episode 142-Winning in Your Own Court with Dena Lefkowitz
• Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL

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In thinking about guests to invite to this podcast, I’m always on the lookout for attorneys who have taken alternative career paths. I also try to find both practicing attorneys and former practicing attorneys who have great advice to share with my audience.  Today’s guest is in the latter category.

Amy M. Gardner is a certified career and career transitions coach and team development and leadership consultant with Apochromatik. She works with employers to reengage teams and help them thrive. She also works with lawyers one-on-one and in small group masterminds to advance in their roles or transition to a new one.

Amy is a former Big Law associate, partner at a mid-size Chicago firm, and dean of students at the University of Chicago Law School. Her career and goal achievement advice has been featured in media including numerous podcasts, ABA publications, Glassdoor, Monster, and NBC to name a few.

In this interview, Amy shares some great practical advice for associates who are trying to build their careers in private practice.

Early December is a great time to start planning for the New Year. Creating S.M.A.R.T. goals is a great way to make sure that you achieve what you set out to do.  In this special edition of the Counsel to Counsel Podcast, I define S.M.A.R.T. goals and then share with you my own S.M.A.R.T. goals for 2022.

There is a lot of talk in my business networking group ProVisors about building a personal brand. But what is a personal brand?  How can it help you build your law practice?  Why should all lawyers create one?

In this episode, I speak with an expert on branding.  Barbara Kaplan is CEO of BSK Strategies, a business development consulting practice helping individual lawyers and law firms build their brands, target and win new and higher-value work, establish thought-leadership, and develop innovative strategies and approaches to distinguish themselves in a competitive marketplace.

She brings to her consulting and coaching work over 20 years of experience helping clients define, pursue and win the business they want. She is devoted to helping them make that skill second nature.

Join us for a great discussion about how to differentiate yourself in the marketplace by creating a personal brand, taming your inner critic so it doesn't interfere with your efforts to self brand, and a host of related topics.

It has never been easier to create digital content to market your law practice.  But what is the right mix?  How much should you be leveraging LinkedIn and other social media platforms to build your visibility.  Are email newsletters effective? Should you be using SEO to get more visitors to your website? What about podcasting?  What should you being doing yourself and when should you outsource?

In this episode, I speak with Marc Apple, a real expert in digital marketing.  Marc is the owner of Forward Push, a marketing agency that creates dynamic websites and manages SEO for companies in a range of industries.  His clients are startups and small-to-medium sized businesses including law firms.  Marc and I discuss how to leverage the full array of marketing options that are readily available and when to turn to an agency for help.

When lawyers approach me to speak about their careers, one question they often ask is “what else can I do with my law degree”.

The answer to that question is of course complex.  As lawyers, we are trained to spot legal issues, evaluate risk, document deals, and litigate disputes.  Most employers are not actively recruiting lawyers to do anything other than practice law.

But that is not to say that lawyers are destined to be lawyers for eternity.  As a lawyer, you do develop transferable skills that can make you valuable in other ways.

The challenge, of course, is to figure out what that transition should look like and how you can best execute a job search when your resume speaks largely to the legal work you have done.

One approach to find a bridge. Look for opportunities in an industry that you are already familiar with. Another approach is to take the experience you have in doing certain types of work and find something that leverages that experience.

That is what my guest, David Lesser, did after a long and successful career as a corporate and finance attorney.

David spent 17 years practicing in several large firms; but for the last several decades, he has run his own business consulting firm.  He and I discuss how he made that transition, what were some of the challenges, what lessons he took from the practice of law, and what advice he has for anyone thinking of moving out of private practice.

David Lesser is the founder and managing partner of the Klarian Capital Group in Chicago. He provides an array of management consulting services to small and middle market companies.  He helps his clients  with operational, financial, and strategic planning issues.

I recently met Dave at a meeting of our ProVisors networking group and we soon discovered that we both grew up in the same town on Long Island. We also figured out that he was the water polo coach of one of the kids in my grade.  More importantly, I was intrigued by the fact that he actually enjoyed being a lawyer when he left the practice.  He didn’t run from the law.

Addition Resources

• Episode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage Legal
• Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams
• Episode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)

As we’ve discussed several times on this show, there are 100s of law firms  throughout the country that are facing succession planning issues.  Baby boomers are aging quickly and firms that want to be in business in 10 years need to have a plan that makes room for the next generation.  How can firms make a successful transition and ensure the long-term viability of their practices?  What options are available to firms?

In this episode, I’m excited to welcome Jeremy Poock who knows a lot about this subject.  Jeremy, who is Founder of Senior Attorney Match, works with lawyers who have practiced for at least 30 years. He helps develop, design, and implement succession plans for their law practices.  He has a great model for helping senior lawyers to get value out of their firms while ensuring a smooth transition into the future.

More Resources

• Episode 58-Managing Your Exit (Career Succession Planning—with Bill Lahey)
• Episode 50- Late Career Shift to Public Service
• Episode 40-Succession Planning for Law Firms Meets Chapter 3 for Lawyers

When I graduated from law school in the late 1980s, there was no internet, no email, and fax machines were widely in use.  I used a Dictaphone to generate correspondence and had an assistant to transcribe the tapes.  While working remotely was possible because of the telephone, going into an office was the norm.

In the intervening years, the rate of technological change has been truly astounding.  And while the internet, email, and social media have continued that evolution, in my opinion, the explosion of AI in the practice of law has been the most significant change in my lifetime.

Never before has it been easier to run a practice as a solo.  The array of tools for research, communication, analysis, and drafting are replacing human labor.

I’ve always been interested in technology and while I do try to keep up, technology is not my major. So I’ve invited Colin Levy to talk about the state of the art in legal tech in the practice of law.

Colin S. Levy is a lawyer and legal tech author and speaker. Throughout his career, Colin has seen technology as a key driver in improving how legal services are performed. Because his career has spanned industries, he witnessed myriad issues, from a systemic lack of interest in technology to the high cost of legal services barring entry to consumers.

Now, his mission is to bridge the gap between the tech world and the legal world, advocating for the ways technology can be a useful tool for the lawyer’s tool belt rather than a fear-inducing obstacle to effective legal work. 

Colin is the author of The Legal Tech Ecosystem which discusses the development of the legal tech ecosystem over the past two decades, and how legal technology can help lawyers work more efficiently.  In addition, he is the editor of the Handbook of Legal Tech.

A few years ago, I began seeing Colin come up a lot more in my LinkedIn feed and I realized that is was time to sit down with him and pick his brain!

In this episode we discuss his overall philosophy about the use of technology in the law, his book, the Legal Tech Ecosystem, the biggest obstacles the legal industry faces when it comes to adopting new technology, and his role at Malbek.

Additional Resources

• Episode 120-Scaling Your Law Firm with AI
• Episode 107-ChatGPT and Trends in Legal Marketing Technology-with Jared Correia

There are many efforts underway around the country to help lawyers address stress in the practice of law. Several years ago, the Report of the Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being was issued by the American Bar Association, Conference of Chief Judges, and other legal organizations.  It called well-being an essential element of a lawyer’s duty of competence.

In Massachusetts, there is an organization called Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers which helps attorneys deal with substance abuse and some of the underlying causes of attorney anxiety and depression and there are similar organizations in many states. In January of 2020, The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts created a Standing Committee on Lawyer Well-Being. The Standing Committee is charged with planning and overseeing efforts to enhance the well-being of lawyers, judges and law students in the Commonwealth and is doing a great job of educating these different constituencies.

As summer is coming to a close and the pandemic rages on, I thought this was a good time to revisit the subject of attorney well-being.  And if you happen to be Jewish like me, this is generally a great time for self-reflection and thinking about the changes you want to make in your life.  So with the start of the New Year, Jewish or not, I was pleased to welcome Shailini George, a professor at Suffolk University School of Law.

Shailini is someone who has thought a lot about the subject of attorney well-being and just published a book called The Law Student’s Guide to Doing Well and Being Well.  She was also co-author of Mindful Lawyering: The Key to Creative Problem Solving.  Shailini teaches legal writing  at Suffolk and focuses her scholarship on lawyer well-being, mindfulness, and the cognitive science of learning.  In this episode, we talk stress in the practice of law and about what Shailini calls distraction addiction.  She offers strategies for addressing stress and distraction in order to become a more productive, effective and happier lawyer.

Other Resources

• Episode 33-Mindfulness, Biofeedback, and the Practice of Law
• Episode 37-Managing Anxiety in a Time of Crisis
• Ten Percent Happier (Dan Harris, an ABC News personality, brings mindfulness to skeptics with his book, app and podcast; tons of content and a great place to start for a modest annual fee--look for discounts)

On this podcast, we talk a lot about relationship building.  Doing great work should always be your number one priority as a lawyer.  But successful careers are not built on merit alone.  The people in your network are critical.  Whether you are thinking about an in-house move or growing your law practice, relationships matter….a lot.  In this episode, I speak with someone who is a master at relationship building.  Ben Sigel is a lawyer who has been a litigator at several mid-sized and large firms, Director of Client and Community Relations for an AmLaw 100 firm, a Candidate for the United States Congress in my district, and President of the New England Chapter of the Hispanic National Bar Association.  He is someone who actively works to build communities and a natural connector. He is also someone with deep roots in both the LatinX and Jewish Communities.

About a year ago, I began working on a diversity initiative with ProVisors, a great business networking group that I belong to. I talk about ProVisors a lot on this show (and to anyone who will listen). When I was thinking that I wanted to build deeper ties in the Hispanic legal community, everyone said Ben is someone I should meet.

And so we had coffee in the lobby of his office building and he taught me something very important.  If you want to build connections in a new community, you need to show up.

Since that time, I’ve seen Ben show up over and over and over again.  He cares deeply about building bridges and he embraces both his LatinX and Jewish heritages.  Ben and I will be talk about his philosophy about bringing together constituencies and what it was like to run a congressional campaign during a pandemic. .

We speak all the time on this podcast about the many ways, lawyers can advance their careers and find more satisfaction in an out of the law. If you at a law firm that emphasizes professional development, chances are, you are learning how to be successful in your practice area.

If you are fortunate to have a good mentor, perhaps you are also learning how to succeed at your firm and maybe how to begin to build your own practice.  But if you are like most law firm associates, it is on you to decide what direction you want your career to go.  Career counseling has not traditionally been provided by your employer.  That was for your law school career services office.

But if you have been practicing for a few years, maybe you are unsure what comes next. Is partnership in your future?  SHOULD you be building a practice? Is in-house an option and how do you get there?  Is an alternative legal career in your future?  Do you want to leave the practice of law altogether?

Most law firms leave those questions for you to figure out on your own (or by seeking out resources outside of your firm). But there are several firms that have now brought that function in-house.  In this episode, I am very pleased to bring in one of the pioneers of the field of law firm career counseling, Kevin Agnew.

Kevin Agnew is Director of Attorney Career Services at Latham & Watkins an international law firm with almost 3000 lawyers. He runs the firm's Career Design program and oversees the global alumni program. In a confidential coaching environment, he works with attorneys on the full range of career issues. Kevin also is an Adjunct Professor at Northwestern Pritzker School of Law, where he was named Adjunct Professor of the Year in in 2017.

Kevin shares valuable career advice for associates and describes how Latham has embraced the notion that there can be different definitions of success (and that each of these paths can be benefit attorneys and their firm).

Related Podcasts

• Episode 30-The Key to Happiness in the Practice of Law
• Episode 27-Downsizing from Biglaw
• Episode 25-Thirty Years of Biglaw Wisdom

In the 25 years that I’ve been coaching attorneys, one of the common themes I hear is the desire to go in-house. We have spoken a number of times on this podcast about that.

Conventional wisdom says that going in-house means becoming more of a generalist and many of the in-house counsel I have interviewed have found that their work broadened a lot once they left private practice.

My guest in this episode, Misty Leon, took a different path. She has parlayed a niche practice into a great in-house role.  In this interview, we talk about her path into a corporate law department, what it is like to be in a compliance role in a rapidly changing legal environment, and how her life has changed since leaving private practice.

What I love about having the chance to talk to Misty is that we have only met virtually. But since the pandemic, our paths have crossed many times on LinkedIn, on webinars, and in ways that would never have happened since Zoom took over the world.

Misty Leon is legal counsel to Texas Instruments in Dallas.  She is a benefits attorney with 20 years of experience working with employer-sponsored retirement plans, health plans, and executive compensation plans. In 2021, she transitioned from being a partner at an employee benefits boutique firm to an in-house role. She also worked for several large law firms early in my career, and has represented both public and private employers, including governmental entities.

Additional Resources

• Episode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz
• Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a Litigator
• Episode 66-Going In-house with David Sclar
• What I've Learned as In-House Counsel
• Frequently Asked Questions About Going In-House
• Episode 49-Adapting to Change, Pivoting to In-house and DEI in the Legal Profession
• Episode 39-An In-house Career in the Life Sciences

Like most lawyers, I went to law school because I wanted to enter an honorable profession.  I wanted to have a career where the emphasis is on intellect and not on business.  Not long after graduation, I realized that law IS a business and if you want to be successful, being a great lawyer is not enough.  You need to learn how to run your practice efficiently.  You need to learn how to manage people. And you need to learn how to sell your services. 

If you can master those skills, your chances of success will greatly increase.

As I’ve noted many times on this program, sales is one area where many of us feel uncomfortable.  As attorneys, we are supposed to be above that.  People should hire us because we are good at what we do.  

In reality, that is not the way the world works.  Just like practicing law requires a unique set of skills, so does selling our services.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Dominic and I discuss the business of law and some of the ways we can be more successful in our sales process.

Dominic Grew is the Founder & Owner of Elevate Business Coaching, LLC.  He is an expert in business management and business development. 

Prior to opening Elevate, he spent more than 25 years working internationally in the insurance and investment management sectors.  As a former COO for Global Business Development, he learned how to scale to operational excellence and to prioritize and execute growth initiatives for complex and competing practice areas. 

Today, as Founder of Elevate Business Coaching, he partners with law firms and their lawyers to build, grow, and manage thriving practices.   Dominic’s tools of choice are coaching, training and facilitation.  He prides himself on bringing an outside perspective to the business of law, teaching attorneys to work smarter rather than harder to accomplish their business goals. 

Additional Resources

• Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael Katz
• Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business

The pandemic put a damper on international travel.  It also reduced the opportunities for American lawyers to practice law overseas.  But as travel has returned, the demand for legal talent trained in the United States has never been stronger in the Far East.

One country where the need is particularly strong is Japan.

So what does it mean to practice in Japan? How do you find opportunities? What are some of the cultural differences and what do lawyers who are thinking about an international adventure need to know? My guest, Catherine O'Connell, has practiced law in Japan for over 20 years and has a lot of the answers.

Catherine O’Connell is originally from New Zealand, and has worked for major firms in New Zealand, Tokyo and London. She has held several in-house positions for well know Japanese companies.

Today, she has her own boutique law firm in Tokyo where she serves as a fractional lawyer providing on demand legal services to big and small companies. She also serves as an outside general counsel on retainer. She is the first foreign female lawyer to launch a firm in Tokyo.

Catherine has won numerous awards and as host of the award winning Lawyer On Air Podcast.

In the episode, Catherine discusses her experience in assimilating into the Japanese legal community.  We also be talk about lessons she has learned from producing her own podcast.

I met Jim Durham in the early 1990s when legal marketing was just taking off in law firms.  For decades before, law was thought of more as a profession. And while it is still very much  profession, there has been a dramatic shift in the way law firms think about marketing. 

While there a few remaining firms that rely on longstanding institutional relationships to keep associates and partners busy, most firms today are actively looking for ways to promote their reputations. The most successful and most highly compensated lawyers are the ones who have figured out how to create a niche and build strong relationships with potential clients and referral sources.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s when law firms began hiring marketing professionals and lawyers began working with outside marketing consultants and coaches, I had the good fortune to meet some of the pioneers in this new field. One who really made an impression on me was my guest , Jim Durham.

I recently reconnected with Jim and spoke to him about my work with senior lawyers who are trying to figure out their next stage.  Jim is someone who has reinvented himself numerous times in his career.  As I learned more about his back story, I realized that Jim was a story waiting to be told.

Jim has been a partner at a major law firm, a sports agent, a Chief Marketing Officer for several major law firms, an outside marketing consultant and inspirational speaker, and an internal marketing executive for MLB.Com , the online arm of major league baseball. Today, Jim Durham is the Chief Operating Officer at Verrill, a large regional firm that has its roots in Portland, Maine. 

But his origins would not suggest that he would be where he is today. Listen to his story and hear his inspiring life lessons and valuable advice for being successful in your legal career, whatever path you choose.

For many lawyers, going in-house continues to be an attractive career option.  But the lawyers I speak to have a lot of questions about making a transition to in-house. They ask me about the timing, how to find good in-house jobs, how practicing in a corporate law department differs from private practice and how in-house jobs differ from each other. 

In this episode, I speak with David Sclar who has a lot to say on the subject. 

David is author of Workplace Strategies for Technology Lawyers, and he is joins me from Washington DC where he works as Healthcare Compliance and Privacy Officer for WW (formerly known as Weight Watchers.) 

David began his career doing a clerkship with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court.  He worked at two AmLaw 100 firms and prior to joining WW, he spent 6 years at a healthcare company until the company was acquired.  David has a lot of wisdom to share on going in-house

Additional Podcasts and Resources

• What I've Learned as In-House Counsel
• Frequently Asked Questions About Going In-House
• Episode 49-Adapting to Change, Pivoting to In-house and DEI in the Legal Profession
• Episode 39-An In-house Career in the Life Sciences

There are a lot of unhappy lawyers in our profession. But when I started this podcast three years ago, it was my firm belief that there are many happy attorneys as well and we can all learn from them.

In this episode, I speak with  Arivee Vargas, an attorney who really works at trying to find more fulfillment in her career. She is also someone who inspires others through her own coaching work.

I met Arivee for the first time when I sat in on a career panel that was sponsored by Region I of the Hispanic National Bar Association. Arivee and her fellow panelists were all lawyers who had graduated law school around the time of the 2008 financial crisis and they had some very practical advice for law student looking for work in a pandemic.  I was blown away by her take charge attitude and her ability to demonstrate resilience in the face of adversity.

This past Spring she launched The Humble Rising Podcast and I began listening.  Again I was blown away at what a what an inspiration Arivee can be. 

Arivee is a first-generation lawyer who has worked in two large law firms, clerked for the First Circuit and US District Court in Massachusetts, works for a major biotech company, and has a side hustle now as a Certified Life and High-Performance Coach to professionals who are first generation and women of color.  She also manages to be mother to three young children. This is her story.

In this Episode of Counsel to Counsel, I'm bringing you the feed from Steve Fretzin's great podcast, Be That Lawyer.

Steve is an outstanding business development coach for attorneys. He is an author and friend who has taught me a lot about BD coaching.

In this episode, Steve interviews me about why coaching can be a great tool to help lawyers achieve higher levels of career satisfaction and marketing success.  I talk about one of my favorite topics: why lawyers need to wear a different hat when they are not giving out legal advice (and why that can be hard for some attorneys.)

Steve has been a guest on Counsel to Counsel and this is my second time as a guest on Be That Lawyer. Steve has also been great about inviting me to participate on his panel of attorney coaches called Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner.

He is a practitioner of co-opetition and very generous with his time.

Additional Episodes

• Steve Seckler: Coaching to the Next Level (on Be That Lawyer)
• Episode 44-Getting the Most from Networking Meetings and Troikas (Steve Fretzin on Counsel to Counsel)

Launching your own law practice can be both energizing and scary. For lawyers who are accustomed to earning a steady paycheck, hanging a shingle means saying goodbye to security. Leaving a large firm means that there is no one between you and the client. You need to figure out how to advise them without the help of partners who are just down the hall. You also need to develop your own infrastructure.

At the same time, starting your own practice means having a lot of flexibility and a chance to really build something of your own.

In one of the first episodes of Counsel to Counsel, I interviewed Matt Yospin, an IP lawyer who went solo after several years at an AmLaw 100 firm. Since that time, I have coached a number of lawyers who have started their own practices. 

Matt Yospin spoke a lot about how he has leveraged technology to make his IP practice run smoothly with far fewer resources.  In this episode, I speak with Allan MacLean about starting a solo employment law practice, what he wishes he had known when he launched his firm, and how he has shifted the nature of his work after leaving a large national labor and employment law boutique.  Allan described what it was like to start representing employees after focusing on representing only management.  He also talked about how workplace investigations are a nice adjunct to the litigation he is doing.

Allan MacLean is the owner of MacLean Employment Law in Cambridge, Massachusetts where he concentrates on employment law and civil litigation.

Allan now counsels and represents both individuals and employers regarding the full range of employment matters, including leaves of absence, compensation issues, terminations, and harassment and discrimination claims. He also assists clients with "non-compete" agreements, and a growing part of his practice is workplace investigations.

In this episode, I'm coming off of a string of marketing successes. Therefore, instead of interviewing someone else, I've decided to share my experiences.

The Reader's Digest version is that most lawyers who achieve marketing success do so through a variety of channels. The important thing is to choose the channels where you'll find your clients and referral sources.

But it is equally important to choose activities that you like.

In the end, you won't be able to predict which ones will work and which ones won't.  And that is to be expected.

Related Episodes

• Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael Katz
• Episode 79-Digital Marketing for Your Law Firm: Getting the Right Mix
• Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business
• Episode 63-LinkedIn in 30 Minutes (with Kristyn Brophy)
• Episode 44-Getting the Most from Networking Meetings and Troikas

Is it possible to practice in the public interest at a major law firm?  How can you build a legal career working on complex commercial real estate deals while serving a higher purpose? 

David Abromowitz has been doing that for almost 40 years.

David Abromowitz is a real estate attorney who is nationally known for his work on complex development and finance deals.  A major focus of his practice has been on affordable housing and economic development.  He also has significant experience in workforce development issues supporting youth opportunities.

David is a longtime partner in the law firm Goulston & Storrs, where he headed up the firm's real estate group and its pro bono committee. For the past dozen years he has been moving more into the non-profit and political realm.

Most recently, David launched the New Power Project, a national effort supporting people who’ve grown up in underserved communities run for local and district elective office. Before that he served six years as Chief Public Policy Officer at YouthBuild USA.

He is a past chair and founding member of both the Lawyers’ Clearinghouse on Affordable Housing and Homelessness and of the American Bar Association’s Forum Committee on Affordable Housing and Community Development.  He also served six years on the board of Mass Development, the Commonwealth’s economic development agency.

And he recently wrote his first novel!

Additional Resources

• Episode 21-Creating a Mission Driven Law Practice 
• Episode 41-Using Pro Bono to Build Your Skills and Enhance Your Career Satisfaction in a Time of Crisis

Being a great communicator is essential to your success as a lawyer. Whether you are counseling a client, managing paralegals or associates, giving a presentation, or just trying to cultivate relationships that might lead to business, effective communication is everything to your success.

If you are like me, in law school, you learned to think like a lawyer.  You cultivated your legal research and writing skills and learned to interpret the law.  When you entered the real world, you soon learned that you need a whole different set of skills to succeed.  And a lot of that has to do with how you communicate whether it is with clients, referral sources, colleagues, and other lawyers.

In this episode, I speak with Donna Mac who has a lot to say on the subject of effective communication. Donna is founder and President of iVoice Communication and trains current and emerging leaders to create new, healthier communication practices so they can become influential, resilient and speak with confidence.  She teaches mindfulness techniques that her clients can use to be more present and more successful in delivering a message.

I met Donna through my business networking group ProVisors and since that time I've had the chance to speak with her about my own challenges in communicating with difficult people (including family members and clients).  I’ve also heard her give great presentations on communication at the New York Public Library speaker series.

There are many ways to build a law practice.  Legal marketing is not a one size fits all. Lawyers have different personalities and interests.  Different practice areas lend themselves to different marketing techniques. Beyond this, there can be some gender differences in the way men and women approach marketing.

In this episode, I speak with Lana Manganiello who has put a lot of thought into this subject.  Lana is a business development coach with Equinox Strategy Partners.  We met through our business networking group ProVisors and I’ve been learning a lot from her. Lana works with attorneys and firms to create bespoke and measurable business development strategies and actionable plans.  She truly believes business development is the key to career fulfillment in the legal profession.

Recently, Lana and I were on a call with several other ProVisors members who coach attorneys. As the only woman on the call, she brought a perspective that I thought would be great to bring to Counsel to Counsel.  Lana and I talk about how she helps attorneys achieve success with her three-part plan. We then dive into the question of legal marketing and gender.

Additional Resources

Check out other episodes of the C2C podcast and read articles and blog posts. Visit the Resources section on my website

If I had to name one thing I work on with almost every client, it would be FOLLOW UP! Follow up and persistence are critical if you want to build your business relationships, generate referrals, find that great in-house job, or get alignment from the partners you are trying to lead.

The explosion of email and the added proliferation of spam filters, has made this all the more challenging.

If you add in the fact that many lawyers don't like "sales", follow up is challenging....but critical. If you want to generate work, leverage your network to find your next great career opportunity, or be an effective leader in your law firm or corporate law department, follow up is a core skill to cultivate. But at some point, you actually can overdo it!  Listen in for some practice tips on how to follow up in a professional and effective way.

There are many paths to success in a law firm.  I’ve emphasized on this podcast that growing your practice is a good place to start.  Having your own clients gives you a sense of ownership that is hard to achieve when you are just servicing firm clients.  If you have your own book of business, there is more opportunity to focus on the work you enjoy and the clients you like.  

For some, getting involved in the management of a firm is another way to find more fulfillment.  But it is not for everyone.

I once heard someone say that managing a law firm is like being the only fire hydrant in a town filled with dogs. David Maister and Patrick McKenna put it another way in their book First Among Equals.  When you are running a professional services firm, you must lead through influence rather than authority.

In this episode, I have a great conversation with David Rosenblatt who has been one of the longest serving Managing Partners in the Boston legal market.  He has served as Managing Partner at Burns & Levinson since 1998.

During that time, David has seen a lot of changes in the practice of law and a lot of changes at his own firm.

A few months ago, the firm announced that David would be stepping down from the role in 2023 and I thought it would be a great opportunity to speak to David and get him to reflect on his experience.

In this episode, we talk about David’s career, the changes he has seen, what has been most fulfilling for him, what advice he has for lawyers thinking about law firm management, and a host of other topics.

In the legal press and even in popular media, larger law firms tend to get a most of the attention.  In truth, a high percentage of lawyers in the United States practice in firms that are under 20 attorneys.  And many of those are solo practitioners or very small firms that have broken away from larger firms.

While I know that there are many lawyers who are satisfied with practicing in a large or mid-sized firm, as technology has continued to improve over the last two decades, I have seen many attorneys realize the benefits of running their own practice.

Being your own boss is not for everyone, but I can say as a solopreneur, it can be very rewarding.

I have worked with quite a few lawyers who have left comfortable law firm jobs to go out on their own or join forces with a handful of colleagues.  Most of them are happier on the other side.

The challenge for lawyers who are contemplating this type of move is that they have never run their own business.  Where should the practice be located?  What services should the firm provide?  And perhaps even more challenging:  What technology should you be using to run your practice? Should you hire anyone? What are your obligations to employees? How should you set up your books? Who should do your website or maintain it? and What things should you be outsourcing?

To answer those questions and provide some tips on how to be successful as you launch your own practice, I invited Diane Camacho.  Diane is the owner of DLC Consulting Services, LLC.  She and her team work with established law firms to improve operations and increase profits.  They also help attorneys start their own firms.

Diane has worked with many partners who have decided to break away from much larger firms. She has helped them get set up so that their launch is smooth, and they are set up for future success.

Counsel to Counsel is now in it’s third year and with this episode, we decided to try something a little different. Many people ask me to explain what coaching is.  While I’ve written about the subject and had on today’s guest in an earlier episode to talk about coaching, I thought that doing a mock coaching session would be a great way to demonstrate the power of working with an executive coach. 

I decided that Beth Masterman would be a great guest to invite back. Thankfully, she agreed to do it.  Beth has been a wonderful mentor to me and I truly value her wisdom and the guidance and support she has given me over the last two years.

Beth is a certified and credentialed by the International Coach Federation and has a Graduate Certificate in Executive Coaching.  She is also a lawyer and has a master’s in psychology.

As an executive coach, Beth is great at helping her clients consider possibilities and interpret the big picture.  She was recently named the Number One Executive Coach in the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Readers Rankings awards.

In this mock session, I play Steve, a 9th year real estate associate at Smith Johnson, an AmLaw 100 firm.  Steve has been passed up for partnership and he has reached out to Beth for help. Steve is is based on a client that Steve Secker worked with several years ago.

This is the first of two parts.

Additional Resources

• Listen to my original interview with Beth Masterman
• What is attorney coaching and how does it work (follow links to see examples and read more about how coaching works.)

The New Year is finally here and without getting into it, let’s just say that many of us are happy to welcome 2021.  A new year brings hope, a chance for a new beginning, and if you are in private practice, a great opportunity to ramp up your marketing and business development. So today, that is what we will be focusing on: how to grow your practice in 2021, and what it is like to work with a business coach to achieve that goal.

For this episode, I have invited Alay Yajnik, award-winning business coach and founder of Law Firm Success Group. Alay's firm helps law firms owners across the country make more money, get better clients, and take more vacations. He hails from the San Francisco Bay Area, and we met through our business networking group ProVisors. I’ve already appeared as a guest on his podcast  the Lawyer Business Advantage. 

Additional Resources

• Can Hiring a Coach Enhance Your Practice and Your Life?
• How Coaching Can Help Attorneys Increase Career Satisfaction-Stephen Seckler on the Legal Toolkit 
• Coaching to the Next Level-My Guest Appearance on the “Be That Lawyer” Podcast 

I was beginning to think that live conferences were in my rear view mirror...until I attended the Annual Education Conference of the National Association for Law Placement.  It was my first live conference in over four years.  And I was like a kid in a candy shop.

While I've made a point of going to an occasional live event, especially in the last two years (including speaking at live events), I had pretty much give up on conferences.

Attending the NALP conference changed that for me.  The quality of the networking and the quality of the workshops convinced me that going to live conferences is still an important part of marketing and professional development.  Listen in to hear my story.

Additional Resources

• Checklist for Networking Functions (before, during, and after)
• Active Listening-Do I Really Need to Say This?

This episode was recorded during Well-Being Week in Law 2023.  In Massachusetts and around the country, there are a lot of programs being offered to get lawyers thinking about the many mental health challenges that are widespread in the legal community.  This particular week was designated to align with Mental Health Awareness Month which is May, and many organizations ran workshops and gatherings to talk about depression, substance abuse, anxiety, stress and a host of other topics.

Underlying many of these issues is having too much to do and too little time to get it done.  Many lawyers need tools for effectively managing their time and dealing with overwhelm. 

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with Sarah Tetlow of Firm Focus who gave some great tips on delegation, dealing with interruptions, and generally managing our time more effectively. Sarah is an expert on the subject.

Sarah is an experienced productivity consultant, trainer, and international speaker for attorneys and other busy professionals. Through one-on-one consulting, strategic planning, workshops, and group trainings, Sarah works with attorneys, law firms, and busy professionals to find personalized ways in which to manage one’s day with a proactive and focused approach.

Sarah is also the creator of the ARTT® Email Productivity system and course which she discussed in this episode.

Through Sarah’s passion for focused work and her unique and sympathetic coaching approach, she helps her clients change their behavior and reduce their stress and anxiety.

Additional Resources

• Episode 97-What Law Firms Can Learn From Corporate America About Well-Being
• Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the Law
• Episode 64-Building Your Practice and Your Management Skills with Mindful Communication
•  Episode 57- Billable Work v. Investment Hours (Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking on Time Management)
•  Episode 37-Managing Anxiety in a Time of Crisis

With aging baby boomer in their senior ranks, 100s of law firms  throughout the country are facing succession planning issues.  How can the firm make a successful transition and ensure the long-term viability of their practice?  How will the younger partners step into the role of managing client relationships so the clients are well served in the future?

Underpinning all of this is a reality for many firms. Lawyers are living longer, practicing longer, and have very strong professional identities as lawyers.  What will these attorneys do when they are no longer chairing a department?  What are some of the creative strategies that lawyers have used to figure out What Comes Next.

My guest, Bill Lahey, has thought a lot about that subject.  Bill began his career in the public sector, worked for one large firm, one small firm and over 4 years, cut his hours by 20% per year and is not entirely out of the practice of law.  Along the way, Bill has experimented with pro bono work, taken a sabbatical in Bhutan, and explored graduate degrees in two fields.  He is anything but a “typical lawyer” and I invited him on the show to share some tips for senior lawyers who aren’t sure how to make their own transitions.

Additional Resources

• Episode 40-Succession Planning for Law Firms Meets Chapter 3 for Lawyers
• Episode 50-A Late Career Shift to Public Service
• Episode 19-Canoeing vs. Whitewater Rafting-A Career Conversation With Jose Sierra
• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life

In this episode, Michael Katz, returns to Counsel to Counsel after a 3 year hiatus. In 2019, Michael and I spoke about how to use newsletters as an effective marketing tool. Check out Episode 29 of this podcast.

Newsletters have only grown in value, especially during the pandemic when in-person marketing went away.

As many of us have resumed in-person activities, however, live relationship building is moving back to center stage. Of course it never truly went away and Zoom made sure of that. But more than ever, we now have the chance to build strong referral relationships by participating in activities that we enjoy.

One of the challenges of relationship building is how to stay top of mind so that our prospective clients and referral sources will think of us when they hear about an opportunity that is right for us.

If you are like me, it is easy to deliver a lengthy discourse when someone asks what you do. In all likelihood, you do a lot of things. And some of those things are actually hard to explain.

While a lengthy discourse may be effective when you are making a closing argument in a $200 million dollar theft of trade secrets case, it’s probably not effective for generating referrals.

So how do you make a lasting impression on someone so they will tell someone else to call you?

Michael Katz has some great tips on that very subject.

Michael Katz is an award-winning humorist and former corporate marketer. His company is Blue Penguin Development and he is founder and Chief Penguin. Michael specializes in coaching professional service firms and solos in improving their marketing.

Since launching Blue Penguin in 2000, Michael has been quoted in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Business Week Online, Bloomberg TV, Forbes.com, Inc.com, USA Today, and other national and local media.

He is the author of four books and over the past 20+ years has published more than 500 issues of “The Likeable Expert Gazette,” a twice-monthly email newsletter and podcast with 6,000 passionate subscribers in over 40 countries around the world.

And he is someone I have learned a lot from through our business networking group ProVisors.

Additional Resources

• Episode 29-How Newsletters Can Set You Apart From the Competition
• Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business
• Episode 44-Getting the Most From Networking Meetings and Troikas
• Making Introductions that Generate Referrals

LinkedIn is a critical marketing tool for lawyers. This has been underscored this year as the world of in-person networking has remained largely shut down.  But as the world opens up and we find ourselves at conferences, networking functions, meeting for lunch or coffee, LinkedIn will continue to be an important tool in the marketing tool bag.

In this episode episode, we do a quick dive into LinkedIn and talk about how to make the most of LinkedIn. My guest Kristyn Brophy has a lot to say about using the platform more effectively. 

Kristyn has worked in-house at a number of major law firms in the Boston area .  More recently she joined Legal Internet Solutions Incorporated as Director of Client Strategy.  She is a fountain of knowledge about legal marketing, social media, and the newest platform in the social media ecosystem, Clubhouse.

Additional Resources

• With LinkedIn, Measure Quality of Engagement not Quantity
• Getting Personal on LinkedIn Once in a While
• Episode 11-The Social Media Maven
• Networked: How 20 Women Lawyers Overcame the Confines of COVID-19 Social Distancing to Create Connections, Cultivate Community, & Build Businesses in the Midst of a Global Pandemic

Over the last 25 years, I’ve spoken to many lawyers who have expressed interest in going in-house.  When I graduated from law school in the late 1980s, opportunities to work in a corporate environment were more limited.  Today, there are many more lawyers working in-house. So what has changed?  And more importantly, what does it mean to leave behind a law firm job. 

Since most in-house jobs are no guarantee of lifetime employment, how should lawyers position themselves for future career success after they shift their careers in-house?

My guest, Amy Katz,  is someone whose career I’ve been following for over 20 years.  She began her career in a large firm, but has experience working for a major biotech company, going back into private practice, and more recently, has been working in non-practicing roles as a recruiter.

Today, Amy is the Chief Talent Officer for Outside GC.

Prior to rejoining Outside GC she did in-house recruiting for Major, Lindsey & Africa where she focused on recruiting general counsel and other in-house attorneys in a wide range of industries, most notably life sciences and technology.

Amy’s career experience also includes over 25 years as a practicing employment attorney. Prior to joining MLA, Amy was a Member at Outside GC, advising employers on a wide range of employment law matters, conducting workplace and academic investigations, and designing and delivering compliance training. Before that, she served as senior employment counsel for Genzyme Corporation.

Amy began her legal career in the employment law department of the Boston law firm Foley Hoag LLP.  Most importantly, she is someone who I consider a friend.

In this episode, Amy shares her insights about moving from private practice to in-house to a virtual law firm and finally into legal recruiting.

Additional Resources

• Episode 86-Career and Life Lessons from Jim Durham-A Pioneer in Legal Marketing
• Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a Litigator
• Episode 66-Going In-house with David Sclar (see show notes for additional resources)

It is axiomatic that if you want to have a successful legal career, you need to learn your craft. Most areas of legal practice require highly refined analytical abilities coupled with good judgment. For the most part, the first developmental task of any new lawyer is to learn how to practice law.

But if you want to advance in your career, you need to be more than a good technician.  Demonstrating executive presence is also key.

In this episode, I am pleased to introduce John Buckley, Board Secretary and General Counsel for the North Carolina operations of a multinational mobility infrastructure company.  John talks about how building your executive presence is critical to advancing your career, especially if you want to want to take on leadership responsibilities.

In a great conversation, John discusses what executive presence is, who needs it, and what it looks like. He offers his practical tips on how increase your own executive presence.

Over the summer, I heard John give a great presentation on this topic for the American Bar Association and I decided I had to have him on the show.  Lucky for me, he accepted my invitation right away.

John Buckley has served 3 times as the first in-house counsel for start-ups.  He has 15 years of solo/small law department General Counsel experience.  He began his professional life as an engineer for Duke Power.

Additional Resources

• Ted Lasso (🍎TV+) and Lessons in Leadership and Performance
• 15 Tips for Leadership Success
• Episode 118-Paths to Partnership in 2023 and Beyond-With Laura Terrell
• Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams
• Episode 87-The Advancement of Women in Law with Elise Holtzman
• Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department

It has been over a year since I finally left the legal recruiting business to focus exclusively on coaching.  Since the market has changed a lot since early 2022, I thought this would be a good time to invite someone who is still in the business to talk about the state of legal hiring.  I also thought this would be a good time to revisit the topic of legal recruiting in general and who can benefit from working with a recruiter.

Emily Witt is a legal recruiter with over 20 years of experience. She began her career as an in-house recruiter for Wachtell, Lipton in New York. In 2016, she moved over to the agency side and today, she places attorneys in both law firm and in-house positions.  In particular, she enjoys focusing on women's advancement in both tech and healthcare.

Emily hosts the podcast, Beyond the Legal Lens, that helps open the door to jobs in tech and health law. She also has a platform, the Advocate's Mic, that highlights mission-driven attorneys who are creating impactful initiatives in their communities.

Emily shares her wisdom on the state of legal hiring in 2023 and offers some tips about working with a recruiter.

If you are an attorney, what does it mean to be a professional?  What is the borderline between zealous advocacy and uncivil and obstructionist behavior?  My guest in this episode, Don Frederico, has a lot to say about that subject. 

Don is a lawyer I met over 30 years ago when I began my own legal career at Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education.  At that time, Don was a litigation partner at the law firm McDermott Will and Emery. Today, Don leads the Class Action Defense Practice at Pierce Atwood. 

I met hundreds of lawyers during my days at MCLE.  While many of our volunteers were true experts in their fields and generous with their time in helping to educate the bar, there were some standouts.  Don was not only someone who was willing to step up when asked, but he was an enthusiastic participant and someone who I thought really modeled true professionalism in the way he treated everyone.

In this episode, I speak about Don’s career, how he has found career satisfaction beyond serving clients, and what he thinks it means to be a professional in the law.

In many ways, practicing law and being an entrepreneur are completely opposite activities.  Entrepreneurs are all about possibilities: What might be? What problems can we solve? Where are the gaps in the marketplace? Lawyers, on the other hand, spend their days identifying risks, thinking about what can go wrong, and managing those risks.

There are numerous examples of lawyers who have left the practice to pursue a law-related entrepreneurial opportunity. There are legal technology firms that have been started by former practicing attorneys.  There are lawyers like me who have gone into legal recruiting and coaching.

There are also attorneys who decide to move in an entirely different direction and start a restaurant or some other business which is not law-related.

But what about lawyers who want to continue to practice law but operate a business on the side?

My guest in this episode, Lori Mihalich-Levin, is someone who has done just that. Lori is a partner at the law firm Dentons.  But she is also the creator of a successful consulting business. Lori and I discuss the genesis for her business, how she grew it, and how she balances her work as a lawyer with her business.  Lori also talks about how practicing law makes her a better entrepreneur and how being an entrepreneur makes her a better lawyer.

Lori, is a partner in the health care practice at Dentons and the founder and CEO of Mindful Return.  She is the author of Back to Work After Baby: How to Plan and Navigate a Mindful Return from Maternity Leave, and co-host of the Parents at Work Podcast. She is mama to two wonderful red-headed boys (ages 7 and just turning 10). Her thought leadership has been featured in publications including Forbes, The Washington Post, New York Times Parenting, Thrive Global, and The Huffington Post.

This past year has been one of great reflection for many attorneys. The lawyers I speak to are thinking more about what they want from their careers and how they can find meaning in their professionals and personal lives.

One group I'm particularly enjoying working with are senior lawyers who have 30 or more years of experience in practice.  The pandemic has caused this group of attorneys to think more about existential questions (What do I really want to do the next 10-15 years?  Am I ready to make a big shift? Should I cut down on my practice or leave the practice altogether and if so, how do I fill my time in meaningful ways?)

Making a career transition raises a host of issues for lawyers at any stage of their career.  But financial issues are particularly salient for senior lawyers.  Do I have enough to retire?  When can I stop working full time?  How do I protect myself and my family as I go through this transition?

In this episode, my guest Chris Cahill talks about these issues and provides a framework for thinking about the financial part of making a career transition.   Chris is a financial planner who is also an attorney. A lot of his clients are now attorneys and I had Chris as a guest speaker in the Fall.  Chris is much more than a money manager.  He brings a host of skills to wealth management and most importantly, he understands the attorney psyche.  Chris and I talk about the financial planning issues that face senior attorneys, how Chris got involved in this work, and what are the issues that are particularly challenging for attorneys in managing money.

In Episode 112 of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with David Lesser, a corporate lawyer who transitioned into management consulting and quit his day job as a corporate lawyer. 

In this episode, I speak with a litigator who has transitioned into jury and trial consulting while keeping his day job as a litigator.

Marc Diller is the managing partner of Diller Law, LLP. He concentrates his practice on plaintiff side wrongful death and catastrophic bodily injury cases. As a partner with Total Trial Solutions in Massachusetts, he also acts as a trial consultant to other well-respected trial attorneys. 

Marc serves on the Executive Committee for the Massachusetts Academy of Trial Attorney and as chair of the Judicial Administration Section Council of the Massachusetts Bar Association.  He has been involved in some of the largest jury verdicts in the state of Massachusetts.

Related Episodes

• Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David Lesser
• Episode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage Legal
• Episode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)

In this episode Steve Seckler speaks with Judith Kurnick, an executive transition coach who specializes in guiding late-career lawyers, executives, and business owners as they navigate career transitions. Judith delves into the “longevity revolution,” the idea that professionals in their 60s can expect to live and thrive for another 25-30 years. 

She shares strategies for overcoming challenges like ageism, health concerns, financial planning, and maintaining relevance while transitioning from demanding roles. The episode provides practical advice on shifting mindsets, exploring new roles, and developing personalized plans to stay productive, engaged, and fulfilled in later career stages. Judith also emphasizes the importance of repurposing skills rather than retiring, helping listeners rethink what’s possible in their next chapter.

Judith Kurnick is an executive transition coach, speaker, and writer with over 35 years of experience as a strategic communications leader. Drawing from her background as a former classical musician, C-suite executive, and consultant, she helps clients create personalized plans to remain relevant, productive, and energized as they move into the next stages of their careers.

 Additional Resources and Episodes

• Episode 134-Law Firm Succession Planning with David Wood
• Episode 67-Retirement By Design (for Lawyers)
• Succession Planning for Your Career-What Comes Next

As attorneys, we share many qualities that make us effective in representing our clients.  Our skepticism, aversion to risk, sense of urgency, competitiveness, and pessimism, can all be good for out clients.

But when it comes to building a practice, advancing our careers, or taking on leadership roles, we are more effective when we remove our lawyering hats.

As it turns out, these qualities can also have a pernicious effect on our mental health.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I share my thoughts on why it is important to stop thinking and acting like a lawyer in social situations.

Additional Resources

• Stop Thinking (and Acting) Like a Lawyer–unless you are giving legal advice!
• Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers of Massachusetts- free and confidential mental health and substance abuse services for attorneys (check your state bar for similar resources in other states)
• Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the Law

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Stephen Seckler shares insights from his recent experiences volunteering during the 2024 election. Drawing lessons from the power of listening in political campaigns, Steve explores how lawyers can apply the same principles to business development. He emphasizes that active listening and understanding client concerns are key to building trust and turning relationships into business opportunities.

Steve breaks down practical strategies for lawyers:

• Ask open-ended questions to uncover client needs.
• Help clients articulate the urgency of solving their problems.
• Position yourself as a problem-solver, not a salesperson.
• Build trust by guiding clients through a thoughtful, solution-focused process.

Tune in to learn how these strategies can help you grow your practice authentically and effectively.

December is a great time to take stock, hit the reset button, and do some planning.   With 2024 around the corner, I’ve been speaking with my clients about setting goals for the new year. 

I’m not talking about making New Year’s resolutions.  It's important to understand that resolutions and goals are not the same. Resolutions often lack specificity and a plan of action, making them easy to abandon. On the other hand, setting clear, well-defined goals lays a foundation for measurable progress and sustained success.

In this episode, I’m pleased to welcome Wendy Merrill and Jennifer Forester, two great coaches who also work with the legal community.  Jen and Wendy are also talking right now to their clients about goal setting and they have some great tips to share.

In our conversation, we speak about setting marketing and business development goals for your law practice. But Wendy and Jen also have some thoughts about other areas in your professional and personal life where setting goals can help ensure that you are moving forward in all aspects of your life.  They also discuss creating a “To Don’t” list.

Jennifer Forester helps lawyers avoid random acts of marketing. She’s a business development coach for corporate and consumer attorneys, drawing on 20 years of experience in sales, marketing, and client service roles with big law and boutiques. Jen lives in northern California with her two Boxer dogs and her husband, who is a family law attorney.

Wendy Merrill is a growth strategist, thought leader, and founder of StrategyHorse. StrategyHorse is a consulting firm dedicated to improving law firm profitability through alignment and engagement strategies. For over a decade, Wendy has been working with lawyers and firms to revolutionize the practice of law.  Wendy lives in the DC area.

Additional Resources

• Episode 109-Sarah Tetlow on Delegating and Dealing with Distraction
• Episode 57- Billable Work v. Investment Hours (Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking on Time Management)

One of the things I love most about doing this podcast is that I get to meet really interesting people and interview them. My guest in this episode takes the meaning of “interesting” to a whole new level.

Susan Ibitz is a face reading profiler who  describes herself as a Human Behavior Hacker.  Through her company, Human Behavior Lab, Susan has trained, consulted, and worked with lawyers, politicians, law enforcement, managers, sales teams, and literally anyone who wants to be more effective in reading body language.

She was trained in profiling by the CIA, FBI, U.S Military, and international militaries.  She is certified as a Level III Hostage Negotiator and has many other certifications to her name. 

Susan’s mission is to reach, teach, and train others to unlock the science behind human behavior.  She has worked with police departments, trial lawyers, sales teams, governments, and corporations as well as many other institutions.  She helps her clients utilize profiling skills to increase sales, team productivity, employee engagement, team building, strategy, effective communication, marketing, and growth. 

She is fluent in Spanish, Portuguese, English, and most importantly, body language, micro-expressions,  linguistic forensic analysis, and face reading with a mask or without. She has worked in the U.S., South America, Mexico, Europe, and the Caribbean. 

In this episode, Susan talks about her work and offers us some practical tips that we can use to be more effective in and out of the courtroom as well as in leadership roles and in marketing our legal services.

In this episode, I speak with Ben Sachs of the Landing Group.    Ben is the author of a terrific new book entitled: All Rise-Practical Tools for Building High-performance Legal Teams.

In the conclusion of the book Ben writes:  For many attorneys, the legal work is their comfort zone.  They would rather be consumed by case law, deal papers, policy memos, or other traditional billable tasks then have to navigate a tricky issue of team dynamics or dysfunction.

In this episode, Ben addresses those issues head on and why good leaders need to change these attitudes.  He also talks about his own alternative legal career.

Ben Sachs is President of The Landing Group.  He is an expert in management, strategy, negotiation, and communication. He serves on the teaching faculty of the University of Virginia School of Law, offering courses on negotiation, public speaking, and legal ethics. Ben also provides consulting and training services for government and private sector organizations in the United States and internationally. His past clients cover a wide range of industries, from law firms to telecommunications providers to retail and more.

Additional Resources

• 15 Tips For Leadership Success
• Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department
• Episode 89-Carol Marzouk-The Executive Lion Tamer

As the baby boomer generation of lawyers approaches retirement, many firms are facing the looming challenge of ensuring a seamless transition for their clients. This process is not just about maintaining business continuity but also about safeguarding the firm's legacy and client relationships. Unfortunately, many firms are not adequately addressing these issues, which can lead to significant disruptions.

In this episode, I speak with a consultant who is working with law firms to change this.

David Wood is a former senior partner with an AmLaw 100 firm, who planned and executed the succession of his entire $6 million practice to talented younger partners before he retired.  Recognizing that many law firms struggle to achieve this outcome, he now advises firms and practice groups on retirement succession issues and strategies.

Key Takeaways

• Many law firms struggle with effective succession planning when senior partners retire
• Transitioning client relationships and revenue streams to younger partners is crucial
• Open communication about retirement plans and identifying successors is key
• Retiring partners need a vision for their post-law life to ease the transition

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Steve Seckler interviews Naïs Mouret, a global leadership advisor and certified emotional intelligence consultant. Naïs shares insights on the critical role of emotional intelligence (EI) and physical well-being in the legal profession. Drawing on her experience working at the United Nations and her extensive background in leadership consulting, she highlights how empathy, resilience, and mindfulness are essential tools for both professional success and personal satisfaction. Naïs emphasizes the importance of developing EI to better connect with clients and colleagues, particularly in high-pressure environments like law firms.

Naïs also discusses the profound impact of physical well-being on professional performance, advocating for small, practical steps that lawyers can integrate into their daily routines to enhance both mental and physical health. From mindfulness exercises to movement breaks, she shares tips on how busy legal professionals can foster resilience and maintain balance. This episode provides valuable advice for young lawyers on building long-term success by prioritizing both emotional intelligence and personal well-being.

Related Episodes and Resources

• Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino
• Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL
• Episode 130-Emotional Intelligence and EQ i-2.0 With Susan Schwartz
• How Developing Emotional Intelligence Will Lead to Long-term Success for Lawyers
•  The Power of Physical Wellbeing - Beyond Self-help and Mental Health Practices

[Reach out to Stephen Seckler for PDF versions of articles]

The subject of attorney well-being is a topic of conversation at most major law firms today.  Several years ago, the Report of the Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being was issued by the American Bar Association, Conference of Chief Judges, and other legal organizations.  It called well-being an essential element of a lawyer’s duty of competence.

More recently, Law.com and ALM Intelligence  conducted a survey of lawyers and staff members, mostly from large firms, has found that anxiety, depression, and isolation remain at concerning levels.  And about 74% of the respondents thought that their work environment  contributed to their mental health issues.

When asked about the factors  that had a negative impact on mental health, top concerns were always  being on call, billable hour pressure, client demands, lack of sleep, and lean staffing.

In January of 2020, The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts created a Standing Committee on Lawyer Well-Being.  And there are similar initiatives in jurisdictions all over the United States.

But what are the core issues that these committees are addressing?  Why are businesses paying attention to the subject? How are these issues playing out in a corporate environment and what can the legal community learn from corporate America.

Mari Ryan has thought a lot about well-being in the workplace and while her focus is not the legal community per se, she has worked with companies in many industries to address these issues.

Mari Ryan is a workplace well-being strategist, speaker, and award-winning author. Mari works with organizations to create workplaces where both the people and the business thrive. Mari is the author of award-winning book The Thriving Hive: How People-Centric Workplaces Ignite Engagement and Fuel Results.

Additional Resources

• Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the Law
• Episode 64-Building Your Practice and Your Management Skills with Mindful Communication
• Episode 33-Mindfulness, Biofeedback and the Practice of Law
• Massachusetts SJC Standing Committee on Lawyer Well Being (there are a lot of other resources on this site)

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Stephen Seckler welcomes Dena Lefkowitz, a professional coach and former practicing attorney who helps lawyers navigate the complexities of career development, marketing, and finding professional fulfillment.

Dena practiced law for over 20 years before transitioning to coaching and has authored the book Winning in Your Own Court, published by the American Bar Association. The book has garnered notable recognition, including the Nautilus Silver Award for Inner Prosperity & Right Livelihood. Together, Stephen and Dena discuss key insights from the book, focusing on how lawyers can take control of their careers, improve well-being, and discover greater satisfaction in their work.

Tune in as they explore topics such as why attorneys often become dissatisfied in their careers, strategies for managing burnout, the importance of self-awareness, and practical steps for improving time management. They also delve into networking, setting boundaries, and how lawyers can embrace change in their professional lives. This episode is packed with actionable advice for attorneys seeking to boost their career satisfaction while maintaining balance and personal fulfillment.

Related Episodes and Resources

• Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino
• Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL
• Episode 122-For the Sake of Your Mental Health, Stop Thinking (and Acting) Like a Lawyer

In the past year, I’ve done a number of interviews with lawyers who have transitioned from the traditional practice of law into other corporate or consulting roles. In this episode, I speak with Shawn Hoyt about how to transition into an operations role in a corporate environment.

Shawn is someone who has thought a lot about managing his own career and he has a unique perspective on career advancement.

Shawn Hoyt is a Vice President at OutSystems.  He began his legal career as a corporate associate at a large law firm. In 1999, I actually recruited him to his first in-house legal job.  Over time, his responsibilities expanded way beyond legal.

Shawn brings an unusual perspective on how to get more from your legal career and how to transition into much broader roles.

Shawn is a senior legal and operational executive who has led a broad range of teams through periods of both rapid growth and transition. He has deep functional experience running commercial, Deal Desk, pricing, proposal/RFP, contracting, deal operations, vendor management, and legal teams.

But he has also managed People, Talent Acquisition, Office Operations, IT, Security, Finance, and Leadership operations through periods of transition.

Related Episodes

·       Episode 114-From Biglaw to In-house to Business Role and Back Again with Carl Berglind

·       Episode 113-From Litigation to Trial Consulting with Marc Diller

Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David Lesser

In this episode, business coach Dominic Grew returns to discuss how solo and small firm lawyers can strategically grow their practices without overextending themselves. Dominic shares practical insights on leveraging time, outsourcing non-billable tasks, and using fractional resources before committing to full-time hires.

Key Topics:

• When to consider hiring support staff or associates
• The benefits of fractional hires and outsourcing tasks like bookkeeping and IT
• Avoiding common mistakes when expanding a law practice
• How to balance delegation while maintaining quality
• Real-world scenarios: Hiring a first employee, sharing an associate, and weighing contract help vs. joining a larger firm

Why You Should Listen:
If you’ve ever wondered how to scale your law firm while maintaining efficiency and profitability, this episode provides actionable strategies to help you make informed decisions about growth.

Additional Resources:

• Episode 110: Getting to No – Turning Leads into Business with Dominic Grew

In this episode, I’m taking a break from interviewing guests to share some exciting news—my new book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, is being published by the American Bar Association in late March!

If you’ve ever struggled with marketing yourself or felt uncomfortable with business development, this book is for you. As lawyers, we’re trained to be analytical and risk-averse—great for legal work, but not always helpful when it comes to growing a practice. In the book, I share practical strategies to help you shift your mindset, build relationships, and integrate marketing into your professional life in a way that feels natural.

Tune in to hear about my own journey with business development, why I wrote this book, and how it can help you market yourself without feeling like a salesperson.

To order, click here.

When I work with lawyers who are doing career exploration, I always encourage them to have informational interviews with attorneys who can give them some perspective.  The lawyers who have the best career perspective are attorneys who have varied work experience.  My guest, Linda Ricci, is an attorney who has A LOT of that perspective.

Linda Ricci is a partner with the law firm Greenberg Traurig which she joined in the Spring of 2021.  Prior to that, she spent 15 years as an Assistant United States Attorney in Boston.

Linda began her legal career with two federal court clerkships, worked for two other major law firms, and spent two years as in-house counsel prior to joining the US Attorney’s office.

Today, she focuses her practice on white collar criminal defense, including matters related to corporate compliance, internal investigations, and government investigations.

I invited Linda to talk about the career lessons she has learned working in several public sector jobs, three different law firms, and a stint in-house.

Additional Resources

• Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a Litigator
• Episode 50-A Late Career Shift to Public Service
• Episode 38-Breaking the Glass Ceiling on a Part-time Schedule

Bruce La Fetra

According to Bruce, the ability to consistently attract great clients sets the best lawyers far above their peers.  Your best clients are:

💲 Easier to manage
💲 More profitable
💲 Quicker to buy
💲 Provide more referrals
💲 More fun to work with

Sounds simple. But as it turns out, it takes work to figure out who these clients are and what they are really looking for in a lawyer.  And clients may not be completely frank with their attorney.  That's where The Client Whisperer comes in.

In this great conversation, Bruce talks about the ways he helps his clients grow and work smarter, rather than harder.  Bruce can be reached at bruce@eastwoodsa.com .

In this episode, we return to a coaching session with Beth Masterman.  If you haven’t heard Part I, you should go back and listen to that first.  In today’s episode, several months have now past and Beth and I are continuing to explore my next career move.

To recap,  Steve, is a 9th year real estate associate at Smith Johnson, an AmLaw 100 firm.  Steve was passed up for partnership and reached out to Beth for help. Steve is not a real person but he has issues which are similar to the issues that some of my clients have faced.

After our first session, I reflected on some of the insights I gained from speaking to Beth.  Here is what I came up with:

• The decision by Smith Johnson was a business decision; it had little to do with me.
• While there are things I like about Smith Johnson and it has been a great experience, it really isn't the best platform for building my practice. Real estate is not a strategic focus of the firm and because my bill rate is so high, it is hard to generate the work I want to do.
• The partners I work with are not good role models for what I want from my life and my career.
• I've never thought about a Plan B and always thought that I'd make partner; but now I get a chance to think more critically.

This session takes place several months after this first session.  In working with Beth, I reaffirmed that I actually do like practicing law and even like doing real estate (although it would be nice to branch out a little and do more than leasing).  I met with some contacts at several mid-sized firms but I’m now feeling  that running my own practice is the way to go. But I have some concerns.

Additional Resources

• Listen to Part I of the Mock Interview
• Listen to my original interview with Beth Masterman
• What is attorney coaching and how does it work (follow links to see examples and read more about how coaching works.)

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I am joined by Jeffrey Soilson, Esq. and Ashleigh Louis, Ph.D., founders of Quantum ADR, an innovative co-mediation practice. Quantum ADR takes an interdisciplinary approach to conflict resolution by combining Jeff's 25 years of family law expertise with Ashleigh's deep understanding of psychology.

Together, they offer a unique "two-coach" model that addresses both the legal and emotional aspects of disputes, creating a more holistic process for their clients. In this episode, Jeff and Ashleigh share their insights into how their combined expertise helps clients navigate complex situations like divorce, co-parenting, and even workplace conflicts while also fostering skills for conflict prevention.

The conversation highlights the distinct advantages of having both legal and psychological perspectives in mediation, such as the ability to understand emotional blockages that often hinder resolution and the importance of aligning clients’ actions with their core values. Jeff and Ashleigh describe how their model aims to prevent future conflicts by helping clients resolve their inner struggles, ultimately leading to more effective and lasting agreements. They also discuss how their co-mediation practice is structured to be more cost-efficient compared to traditional litigation, allowing clients to save both time and money while receiving comprehensive support through the mediation process.

Tune in to learn how this innovative approach to mediation could redefine how we think about dispute resolution.

In law school, we learn how to think like a lawyer.  We develop the analytical skills we need to analyze a case, draft documents, research legal issues and provide sound legal advice to our clients.  But like many  professionals,  we don't spend a lot of time studying the human  component of the practice of law.

While some of us come to the practice with strong interpersonal skills,  many of us  have not been in a position to lead prior to entering the profession.  As lawyers move up the ranks  this can create problems.

Lawyers who are individual contributors  may provide outstanding legal services to their clients.  But as they move into leadership roles in their firms,  they need a different set of skills.  And if they don’t have those skills, that can create a bad culture.

Moreover, a bad work environment  can cause numerous problems for a law firm.  For starters, it can cause turnover which can be costly.

As someone who spent many years earning a living in the recruiting business,  I know how much it can cost to replace a good lawyer.

So what can law firms do?  To address some of the behaviors which are impeding the success  of their firm,  my guest,  Carol Marzouk, has some answers

Carol is CEO and Chief Executive Lion Tamer for Leadership ‘N Soul. Her business is all about transforming behavior, relationships, and culture in the workplace. She founded it on the principle that nobody has to endure a toxic boss, toxic employees, or a toxic workplace. In this episode, Carol shares some tips for how to improve the culture, your firm and how to lead more effectively.

I met Carol through my ProVisors business network, and I can say with certainty that she is someone who was very insightful and very generous with her time.  She is also a pleasure to speak to.

Listen in for a great conversation about how to deal with toxicity in the workplace.  Whether you work with toxic people or recognize some of those behaviors in yourself, Carol has some great advice.

In this episode Stephen Seckler speaks with Lana Manganiello, author of the new book Careers in Business Law: Forging Your Path to Success (American Bar Association 2024).

Lana shares insights from her extensive experience working with AmLaw 200 firms on business strategy, attorney development, and implementing innovative growth initiatives. They discuss the evolving landscape of business law, the importance of aligning career choices with personal values, and how thought leadership can be a powerful tool for lawyers.

Whether you're a law student, early-career lawyer, or seasoned professional, this episode offers valuable advice on navigating and succeeding in the legal profession. Tune in to learn more about Lana's career journey, her motivations for writing the book, and the key lessons she hopes readers will take away.

Additional Episodes

• Episode 68-Are there Gender Differences in Legal Marketing?—What Men and Women Can Learn From Each Other About Building a Law Practice
• Episode 118-Paths to Partnership in 2023 and Beyond-With Laura Terrell

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I'm taking a summer pause from interviewing to catch up on some projects.  I share with you my thoughts on using time blocking as a way to get to the things that are important but not urgent.

Related Episodes

• Episode 123-Setting Your 2024 Goals and Creating Your “To Don't" List with Jennifer Forester and Wendy Merrill
• Episode 57- Billable Work v. Investment Hours (Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking on Time Management)

Relationship building is the key to growing your practice. But who should you be focusing on when it comes to relationship building?  In this episode, Steve Seckler explains how the acronym C.H.I.L.L. can help you to make smart choices in finding the "right" professional relationships to cultivate.

Additional Resources

• Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael Katz
• Episode 85-Peristence, Follow-Up, and Avoiding Fatal Attraction-Tips for Building Your Business Relationships
• Inexpensive Ways to Build Business Relationships

In the last two episodes of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with a lawyer who left corporate practice for management consulting and a trial lawyer who has built a trial consulting business but continues to try cases.

In this episode, I speak with a corporate lawyer who cut his teeth at international law firms, went in-house, moved into a business role, and is back again at an international law firm.

Carl Berglind is a Shareholder with Greenberg Traurig’s Health Care & FDA group. He is based in Denver, Colorado. He focuses his practice on M&A and other complex transactions in the healthcare industry,  representing both sellers and investors.

In his business roles, Carl served as the CEO of an early stage animal health / AgTech company.  He was also VP of M&A of a private equity backed ophthalmology platform, and Senior Vice President of Strategic Transactions at a Fortune 500 diversified health care services company.

Carl was born in Sweden, and grew up in New York, Copenhagen, and Brussels. He speaks fluent Swedish and conversationally fluent French and Danish. He uses his background by working with international clients in addition to his domestic health care transactional practice.

Additional Resources

Law is a conservative profession where change happens slowly. Law firms generally lag far behind accounting firms in creating new models. But since the explosion of the internet in the late 1990s, that rate of change has begun to accelerate. And with the rapid proliferation of ChatGPT and other AI tools, law will surely undergo a lot more change in the next five years.

In this episode, we dive into the innovative legal model of Aliant with Managing Partner Jacob Stein. Aliant is a global network of independent mid-sized law firms that combines the credibility of a large firm with the flexibility and profitability of a boutique practice.

Jacob discusses how Aliant LLP operates as a distributed/remote law firm in the US, offering back-office support while allowing lawyers to maintain high profit margins and operate independently. We explore the benefits for lawyers, including increased control over workload, high profit margins, and reduced stress, as well as the advantages for clients, such as personalized service and access to a global network. Tune in to learn more about how Aliant is revolutionizing the legal industry and providing a new model for legal practice.

In this episode of the Counsel to Counsel podcast, host Stephen Seckler engages with Nancy Capistran, founder of Capistran Leadership and a Vistage chair, to delve into the transformative impact of peer advisory groups and executive coaching. Nancy, an internationally certified executive coach and crisis advisor, is renowned for her commitment to Expanding Human Excellence®. She is also the author of the best-selling book Open Your Eyes and LEAD: Hardship and Wisdom Shape the Best Leaders in Life, which offers insights into overcoming challenges to achieve exceptional results.

In this conversation, Nancy shares how group coaching fosters leadership growth through collaborative learning, diverse perspectives, and collective problem-solving. She also distinguishes between group and one-on-one coaching, emphasizing how each format can transform leaders both personally and professionally. Whether you’re a legal professional or a business executive, this episode provides practical insights into leadership development and maximizing your potential.

Additional Resources

• Episode 130-Emotional Intelligence and EQ i-2.0 With Susan Schwartz
• Episode 129-Law Firm Leadership with Kristi Royse
• Ted Lasso (?TV+) and Lessons in Leadership and Performance
• 15 Tips for Leadership Success

Paul Morton has a lot to say about the term “non-billable hours”.  Paul is the COO of the law firm Burns and Levinson in Boston.  He has been a figure in law firm administration for well over 30 years and he has seen a lot of changes during that time including increased billing pressure on lawyers.  But according to Paul, billable hours should not take priority over all non-billable work.  In fact according to Paul, the phrase “non-billable hours” should be replaced with “investment hours”.

Simply put, attorneys need to generate income for their firms in the short run.  But they also need to invest time in marketing, law firm management, professional development, and self-care.  In the long run, investing in these activities is good for firm profitability, career satisfaction, and mental health.

Carving out time for “investment hours” is challenging for many lawyers.  There are many things competing for an attorney’s time and time management is not a skill taught in law school.  And once you are on a law firm, you are largely rewarded for the number of hours you bill. So how do you balance the two?

Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking, has some answers!  She is an expert on the subject.

Sarah is the founder of True Focus Coaching Inc. She is a speaker, coach, and Productivity and Time Matters Expert with over 20 years of experience.  She empowers professionals and entrepreneurs to get a grip on time so that they can get to the next level in their lives and businesses.

In this episode, Sarah and I discuss some of the challenges that busy lawyers face in managing their time. Sarah offers some very practical tips to help us understand how to be more productive, more effective, and more present.

For the last 10 months, most interviewing has gone on-line.  Zoom interviews are the norm right now and new hires are even being on-boarded virtually.  While the world will eventually shift back to in-person interviews, Zoom, WebEx and other virtual platforms are likely to continue to play a significant role in the hiring process.  The convenience of bringing together parties who are in different locations and have different schedules, it high.  As we enter 2021, I decided to that updating my interviewing tips was long overdue.  In this episode, I share with you the latest tips for on-line interviewing.  Click here to read my more comprehensive interviewing guide which covers both live and virtual interviews.

I also invite you to listen to a conversation with my former colleague Amy Levine.  Her advice on interviewing is pre-COVID; but her tips remain very relevant (Nailing the Job Interview).  And as always, I welcome your emails and phone calls if you would like to discuss.

For many lawyers in private practice, going in-house is the ultimate goal. For transactional lawyers and for some specialties like employment law, the path to a corporate role is more obvious. For litigators, less so.  Most companies outsource a lot of their litigation because the need tends to fluctuate.

But litigators can bring valuable skills to a corporate environment. And there are many examples of litigators who have gone on to have successful in-house careers.

In this episode I speak with Matt Campobasso, a litigator who has built a solid in-house legal career after having a successful career in private practice and public service.

Matt Campobasso is the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary of Enfusion, Inc., a publicly traded fintech company headquartered in Chicago.  He joined the company in 2020 as Deputy General Counsel and helped take the company public.  Prior to that, he served as in-house counsel to two other companies.

He began his career as a prosecutor and then spent ten years litigating with a major firm in Chicago.

In addition to discussing his path to in-house and why he thinks litigators make good in-house counsel, Matt shares his philosophy about leadership and how he has grown the legal function and the legal team at Enfusion.

Achieving partnership was once the goal of most  law firm associates.  The rules were relatively simple.  Work hard, do a good job, and after several years, get rewarded by being elevated.

Today the law firms are more complex.  Many associates entering the practice of law do not aspire to become partners, at least not at the first firm they join.

And at many firms, there are different paths to success which don’t include equity partnership.

So, how should a young associate navigate these new realities?

What is the path to partnership in the 2020s and what are other ways to define success in private practice.  How do you get there?  What is the impact of hybrid work arrangements on career advancement and professional development?

My guest Laura Terrell has some answers.

Laura Terrell is an executive coach with over 25 years of professional experience as a legal and business leader. Prior to launching her coaching practice, Laura was a Special Assistant to the President at the White House, a senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, an equity partner in two large global law firms, and in-house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm.

Laura has led and managed teams of hundreds of people across multiple countries and has been a top advisor for many Fortune 500 and FTSE 100 companies. Her clients come from a wide variety of industries, including law, education, financial services, pharmaceutical, oil & gas, non-profit, health care, and technology.

Some of them are senior corporate executives like CEOs and general counsels; others are lawyers and consultants, entrepreneurs, and small business owners, as well as professionals who may be returning to the workforce, making a pivot to a new career, or switching roles mid-career.

Laura is my favorite kind of guest because she has such a broad perspective on the legal industry and has experienced legal careers from all sides.

Additional Resources

• Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department
• Episode 73-Managing and Advancing Your Law Firm Career

We’ve talked a lot on this show about sales and marketing and how selling legal services is different than selling a product.  That’s good news for those of us in the legal industry because many of us don’t like the thought of being a salesperson.

Selling legal services is about relationships building.

The challenge, however, is that clients generally don’t need your services all the time. You don’t know when a client, potential client, or referral source will have a need or hear of a need.

That’s why it is important to stay top of mind over a long period of time.  But how do you do that?  How can you make yourself memorable whether you are delivering a pitch, giving a presentation, or simply building relationships in the community.

In this episode, Merry Neitlich talks about that.

I’ve know about Merry for years, but we only met more recently through the ProVisors business network.  Back in the early 1990s when legal marketing was starting to take off, Merry was one of the pioneers in the legal marketing community.

Merry Neitlich  has over 25 years of experience in law firm marketing, business development, and strategic planning. She provides attorneys and law firms with tools to grow their business and to successfully identify, court, and convert targets into clients.

She has conducted hundreds of client feedback interviews and has a lot of experience helping firms with branding,

Merry has been an active member of the Legal Marketing Association. She is a frequent national speaker and author.   In 2017, she was inducted into the Legal Marketing Association Hall of Fame.

She is also an accomplished nationally ranked adult competitive figure skater.

Additional Resources

If You Are Not Memorable, Don’t Expect to Be Remembered

 I don’t spend a lot of time talking about technology on this podcast. But I use technology all the time to manage my business and to increase my marketing efficiency. In fact technology is a critical reason why I am able to operate as a solo and while I don’t have to outsource much of my own marketing.

While I haven’t focused on technology on Counsel to Counsel, my interest in technology is actually high. And when the next shiny object comes into my consciousness, I’m often intrigued.

In general, I’m not an early adopter. I’d rather let others do the beta testing.  But in the four months since we heard about ChatGPT, I’ve been meaning to give it a try.  And this month I finally did.  And what I discovered blew me away.

So I figured this was a good time to invite back Jared Correia, a legal tech guru who gave me my start in podcasting 5 years ago.  Jared was last on Counsel to Counsel in 2020 when he spoke about podcasting as a marketing tool. You can hear him on Episode 34.

Jared has also been kind enough to have me on both of his great podcasts, The Legal Toolkit which is sponsored by the Legal Talk Network, and the Non-eventcast Podcast hosted by Above the Law.

Jared Correia is the founder & CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which provides business management consulting to attorneys directly, and through partnerships with bar associations.  He is also the cofounder & COO of Gideon Software, a technology company that offers chat-based intake, qualification, scheduling and document assembly services to law firms.

And he was a pioneer in legal podcasting.

Jared is all about helping  law firms improve their operations and grow their businesses.  Part of that includes helping lawyers be more effective in leveraging technology.  He’s been a huge help to me as well when I have technology questions.

Today, Jared will give a quick overview of ChatGPT and how it can help you streamline your marketing.  And while I have him here, I’m going to pick Jared’s brain about other marketing. 

So today will be a high level overview of the tools that you should have to ensure marketing success.  You should listen to the Non-Eventcast if you want to get a lot more depth.

Additional Episodes

• Episode 34-Podcasting as a Legal Marketing Tool -Jared Correia on Counsel to Counsel
  
• How Coaching Can Help Attorneys Increase Career Satisfaction-Stephen Seckler on the Legal Toolkit
• Referral Marketing and Marketing Technology-Stephen Seckler on the ATL’s Non-Eventcast

Retirement today is very different than it was 50 years ago. People are living longer, and lawyers, like many other knowledge workers, have the ability to work well into their 60s, 70s and beyond. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was productive well into her late 80s.

But for many lawyers, continuing to work is a default option rather than something that has been carefully planned out. Part of the reason is that lawyers have very strong professional identities. Part of the reason is finances.    

As high-income earners, many lawyers fear that they won’t have enough money to last them throughout retirement. That fear needs to be addressed before decisions can be made. 

From my perspective as a career coach, I see lawyers creating meaningful and productive “third chapters” of their lives. A crucial part of this is to look at finances. 

Given how long many Americans are now living, taking the time to prepare to finance your possibly lengthy retirement is essential in making a successful career transition. Finances should really be the first step in any transition planning.  If you are healthy, it can be an exciting time of life.  Figuring out how you will make it all work financially is an important first step.

My guest,  has written a new book on that very subject.  In this episode, we discuss her book and the financial considerations for lawyers who are planning for their next stage of life.

Julie Jason is the author of The Discerning Investor: Personal Portfolio Management In Retirement For Lawyers (and Their Clients).

Julie is an investment manager who started out on Wall Street as a lawyer. Thirty years ago, she founded her own Investment Counsel firm—Jackson, Grant, Investment Advisers, Inc. of Stamford, CT, a fiduciary boutique—where her team manages personal portfolios for high-net-worth families. She writes and speaks frequently on financial literacy and related topics .  I met Julie while serving on a panel put together by the  Senior Lawyers Division of the American Bar Association. 

Other Resources

• Succession Planning for Your Career: What Comes Next?
• Episode 67-Retirement By Design (for Lawyers)

In this episode, host Stephen Seckler welcomes back Gary Johnson, president of J2 Marketing Consultants, for a dynamic session of role-playing client intakes. They explore how lawyers can turn initial business conversations into productive relationships. Gary, an expert in coaching attorneys on growing their practices, shares practical techniques for understanding client needs, building trust, and addressing objections.

Role-play scenarios include consultations with a restaurant owner expanding his business, a divorcing client navigating complex emotions and custody issues, and parents of a special needs child seeking estate planning advice. Each scenario highlights the importance of active listening, empathy, and providing tailored solutions. Gary also emphasizes the long-term value of relationship-building in legal marketing. This episode is packed with actionable insights for lawyers aiming to enhance their client interactions and business development strategies.

Additional Resources

Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business-with Gary Johnson

Episode 144-Turning Business Contacts into Business: Lessons From the 2024 Election 

Episode 110-Dominic Grew on “Getting to No”-Turning Leads into Business and Other Ways to Succeed in Private Practice

IMHO, the two most important words in the English language are "Thank You".

As lawyers, we can be stingy in offering thanks to our colleagues and the people who support our work.  In addition, as we enter the holiday season and are thinking about showing more gratitude, now is a great time to start thinking about the changes we'd like to make in the coming year.

In this special addition of Counsel to Counsel, I share my thoughts for Thanksgiving in the run up to 2023.

In this episode, host Stephen Seckler sits down with Carrie Flynn, a fractional CMO and growth marketing consultant, to explore the evolving landscape of marketing for lawyers and law firms. Carrie brings over eight years of experience helping professional service businesses scale their revenue and impact through tailored digital and traditional marketing strategies. Together, they unpack the essential elements of building a robust marketing plan that balances relationship-building with digital tools. 

Key Topics Discussed: 

• Marketing Fundamentals for Law Firms: How to identify your ideal client and develop targeted messaging to stand out in a competitive market. 
• The Power of Diversification: Combining referral marketing with digital strategies like email marketing, social media, and SEO to drive consistent lead generation. 
• Data-Driven Strategies: Leveraging past performance to inform future marketing decisions and optimize results. 
• AI in Legal Marketing: The opportunities and ethical considerations when incorporating AI into your marketing efforts. 
• Actionable Steps: Tips for creating a focused 90-day marketing plan and evaluating its impact. 

Carrie also shares her journey from public school teacher to marketing consultant and offers insights into how law firms can establish effective marketing practices that drive growth without sacrificing work/life balance. 

In this episode, I speak with my first “threepeat” guest, Lauren Rikleen.  This is Lauren’s third appearance on Counsel to Counsel. She was actually one of my first guests when I launched the show in 2018.  In that episode, we spoke about success strategies for women and the work she has done on that issue. 

In the Spring of 2022,I invited Lauren back to talk more about her legal career including working in the field of environmental law as it was just taking off. We also spoke about what inspired her to make a career shift away from the practice of law.  If you haven’t already listened to it, I invite you to go back to episode 81.

I met Lauren in the early 1990s when I was at Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education and later had the privilege of sitting on her Standing Committee on Work/Life Balance when she was President of the Boston Bar Association.  I knew soon after I met her that Lauren is someone who is not afraid to speak up when she sees injustice.

She is also a person with a big heart who cares not only about making an impact but also about investing in the success of professionals who come from disadvantaged groups.

Most importantly, she laughs at most of my jokes and keeps me laughing as well.

I invited Lauren back because she is the editor of a new book entitled Her Honor. Her Honor is an inspiring compendium of the lives of 25 female judges including many judges of color.  Most of these  judges were women who overcame significant gender and racial discrimination to get to the bench and all of them are judges who felt a great sense of responsibility to continue the fight for racial and gender equity.

I also invited her back to talk about the important work that she is doing through Lawyers Defending American Democracy.

Lauren Rikleen is  President of the Rikleen Institute for Strategic Leadership.  She is also the Executive Director of Lawyers Defending American Democracy. 

Additional Episodes

• Episode 87-The Advancement of Women in Law with Elise Holtzman
• Episode 81-Lauren Rikleen-Rebel with Many Causes

In the past year, I’ve been talking a lot on this show about The Next Stage, my program to help senior lawyers figure out what comes next.  My guests have discussed ways that lawyers can find meaning later in their careers.  One topic that we’ve addressed is succession planning, or ways that lawyers can ensure that what they have built will live on as they scale back or exit the practice of law.

In larger firms, succession planning may mean handing the reins of leadership over time to the next generation and starting a process of transitioning the clients.  For smaller firms, there may not be a deep bench ready to take over.  In those instances, lawyers may simply opt to practice until they are no longer able to because of incapacity or death.  Some lawyers will simply close their doors.

But some small firms may choose another option, and that is a sale.

In this episode, Tom Lenfestey discusses selling a law practice.  Tom is a lawyer and CPA in North Carolina who runs the Law Practice Exchange where he helps senior lawyers get value from the enterprise that they have spent a lifetime building.  Tom speaks and writes regularly on the subject and is author of Designing a Succession Plan for Your Law Practice.

Additional Resources

• Succession Planning For Your Career: What Comes Next
• Episode 67-Retirement By Design (for Lawyers)

On Counsel to Counsel, I speak with attorneys and  consultants who share their advice about advancing your legal career.  We  discuss practical issues to help you build the career that you want. In recent episodes we have talked about how to build relationships in a virtual environment, how to leverage the LinkedIn platform, how to go in house, how to manage your time more effectively, and how to create a side hustle while practicing law.

In this episode, we take a step back to look at much bigger existential issues (how we find meaning in our lives more broadly.)

My guest, Rochelle seltzer, discusses what she calls living big.

Rochelle is a Creative Core Coach and author of the acclaimed book, Live Big: A Manifesto for a Creative Life. Her mission is to unleash the untapped creative capacity inside women everywhere, so they bring all of their greatness into the world.

She teaches and supports accomplished women to move past what keeps them blocked, stuck and small, to create and live their biggest, best lives.

Rochelle began her career as a designer. Thirty years later she sold her firm and embarked on a new chapter, studying creativity. She wanted to unlock her own creativity — and learn to help others unblock theirs. It has been my pleasure to get to know Rochelle through my business networking group ProVisors in the last year.

For a long time, I’ve been meaning to invite a judge onto Counsel to Counsel to talk about judicial careers.  Going on the bench is a logical next step for many litigators and I wanted to speak to a judge who could offer some practical wisdom on the subject.

When I met Paul Wilson at an ABA conference in late 2022, I realized right away that I had a great prospect. 

At the time, Paul was still sitting on the bench, so we decided to wait until he reached mandatory retirement.

Paul is in fact now retired; but he remains very active in a number of law related activities.

In this episode, Paul shares his wisdom on judicial careers.  What does it mean to transition from litigator to judge?  What are the pluses?  What are the potential minuses?  And how do you position yourself for a judgeship?

In the Spring of 2023, The Honorable Paul Wilson retired from the Massachusetts Superior Court, the highest trial court in the Commonwealth.  He sat for over a decade on the Superior Court after being in private practice for 30 years at the law firm of Mintz Levin.

Paul spent most of his career doing real estate, land use, and environmental litigation.  He has always had a strong commitment to public service and has received a number of awards for his pro bono and volunteer efforts.

I've had a number of guests on this show speaking about leadership. A large part of this is that I'm very interested in the subject. But I also feel that this is a skill set that is often neglected in the legal profession.

As lawyers, we learn a lot about our craft in law school and even more once we are in practice.  As professionals, we are taught to analyze the law and help our clients to identify legal risks.

Our job is to be skeptical and to apply dispassionate reasoning to the situation so that our clients can protect themselves from legal exposure and comply with the law.  We work to get our clients the best possible outcome whether it is in a litigation matter or in a corporate or real estate deal.  We help our clients to achieve their personal or business objectives in a way that avoids legal risk or accomplishes their legal objectives.

But the same skills that we cultivate in practicing law can interfere with our ability to be an effective leader.

Whether you are a managing partner, a practice group leader, running your own law firm, serving as a general counsel, or managing other members of the legal team as an assistant general counsel, you need a different skill set to be successful.

In particular, emotional intelligence is one skill that you need to cultivate in order to be successful in a leadership role.

In this episode, Susan Schwartz provides great insights on that subject.

Susan Schwartz is a leadership coach and management consultant. She equips technical experts and teams with the skills they need to become excellent leaders.  Her tagline is :  Transforming expert professionals into emotionally intelligent leaders.

Additional Resources

• Episode 129-Law Firm Leadership with Kristi Royse
• 15 Tips For Leadership Success
•  Episode 121-John Buckley on Building Your Executive  Presence  
•  Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams
•  Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department

Coaching is a field that has exploded since I graduated from law school in the late 1980s.  There are now life coaches, business coaches, executive coaches, marketing coaches, career coaches, and coaches like me who borrow a little from each. 

Coaching is about achieving your goals and moving past roadblocks that are getting in the way of your success. A good coach is a sounding board and holds you accountable to your stated goals.  But not every coach uses the same tools or focuses on the same things.

My own focus is helping lawyers to stop thinking like a lawyer when they are not giving legal advice.

In this episode, I speak with a career leadership coach who takes a different approach from my own.  She talks about her approach to attorney coaching, why attorneys make good clients, and how she helps lawyers manage their energy to move towards their goals.

Emily Hirsekorn is a certified career leadership coach who works with attorneys. She speaks regularly on authentic leadership, work-life balance, career fulfillment, confidence, and energy management.

After earning her JD, she represented educational institutions in employment law and special education matters. She then left the practice to conduct anti-bias education, and soon after, moved into law school career development at the University of San Diego where she worked for six years. 

In 2020 Emily launched her coaching business and now lives in her hometown of Kansas City with her husband, two children, and two rescue pups

She is passionate about disrupting outdated legal industry norms, advancing women in male-dominated industries, anti-bias education, and animal rescue.

Additional Resources

• Energy Leadership Assessment (mentioned in the episode)
• Emily Hirsekorn's Career Accelerator for Lawyers Who Lead

In this episode, I'm very pleased to welcome back Kevin Agnew.  I spoke with Kevin just about a year ago about his career path.  We talked about the career services program he runs at one of the largest firms in the world, and he shared many pearls of wisdom for lawyers who are navigating their careers in private practice. If you haven’t heard it, you may want to go back and listen to Episode 83 first.

Kevin Agnew is Director of Attorney Career Services at Latham and Watkins, an international law firm with almost 3000 lawyers. He runs the firm's career design program and oversees the global Alumni Program. In a confidential coaching environment. He works with attorneys on the full range of career issues.  Kevin created the program and now offers services to attorneys at the firm, firm alumni, and friends of the firm.

In this episode, we continue the conversation we started and focus more on what success looks like in private practice.

Additional Resources

• Episode 83-Career Services at Latham & Watkins-How One Law Firm is Creating New Models for Success
• Episode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz
• Take Steve Seckler's career assessment and sign up for a complimentary discovery session
• Career Paths: Mapping Out Your Future (Program Notes from a Boston Bar Association Panel Discussion)