Conversing with Mark Labberton (Comment + Fuller Seminary)

Thema Bryant discusses her journey of becoming a psychologist and reflects on topics of trauma, thriving, mental health, and race, particularly in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. 

Thema Bryant is an author, professor, researcher, and president-elect of the American Psychological Association. 

President Mark Labberton interviews Jeanelle Austin (MDiv ’13) and Lindsey Wright (MAT ’12) on implicit bias, gender dynamics in the church and workplace, and their hopes for the future.  Read more on Fuller’s commitment to women in ministry and leadership: http://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/fuller-the-bible-and-women/

Jeanelle Austin works for Fuller’s Pannell Center for African American Church Studies as operations director. A poet and natural leader, she often shares spoken word in All-Seminary Chapel to inspire the Fuller community to pursue gospel-centered justice. Learn more about the Pannell Center here: http://fuller.edu/pannell-center/

Lindsey Wright works for Fuller’s Brehm Center for Worship, Theology, and the Arts as administrative assistant. She is passionate about literature and writes about the intersection of the body, food, and spirit. Learn more about the Brehm Center here: http://fuller.edu/Brehm-Center-for-Worship-Theology-and-the-Arts/

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode)

There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”?

In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education.

Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy.

About David Brooks

David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.

Show Notes

• “How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic)
• “The meritocracy isn’t working. We need something new.”
• Money and the elite meritocracy
• “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush)
• “Rich people rigged the system.”
• “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.”
• “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.”
• Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they’re five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they’re twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they’re two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.”
• “We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.”
• Too much power
• What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”?
• IQ is not a good indicator of merit.
• “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.”
• “What’s the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.”
• “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.”
• “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.”
• Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.”
• “We become what we love.”
• Predominant emotion of fear
• Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day
• “You’re plenty smart. You’re just not curious.”
• Tina Turner’s memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect.
• “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.”
• “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks’s eighty-nine-year-old father)
• A sense of purpose
• The drive for the future, to be bold
• Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy
• Moral materialism
• Vincent van Gogh said, “I’m in it with all my heart.”
• Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L’Oeuvre
• Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I’m a people person.”
• “Look at these creatures. They’re amazing!”
• Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances
• “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it’s an emotional capacity.
• Individuals and teams
• “What makes a good team? It’s not the IQ of the individuals. It’s the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.”
• Project Based Learning
• Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High)
• The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates
• Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body
• Emotional agility
• “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don’t solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.”
• “We’re all pilgrims. And we’re all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it’s, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.”
• Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election
• “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.”
• “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.”
• Jesus’s form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn’t give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.”
• “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.”
• Controlling the passions of your heart
• Christian humanism
• Ecce Homo
• Rene Girard and mimetic desire
• Ambition vs. Aspiration
• The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks’s favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.”
• *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton)
• “Am I yet evangelical?”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Roy Goble, author of Junkyard Wisdom and Salvaged, talks about learning from failure, measuring success, and engaging with the gospel in the wider world.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Beth Moore, author, speaker, and founder of Living Proof Ministries, considers the biblical imagery of the vineyard and what it can teach us about how we grow over time and through seasons of change and trial.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Beth Moore reflects on her journey as a woman in ministry, how she developed an authentic style of teaching that ministers to thousands of women, and her battle against misogyny in the church. 

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

William Pannell, looking back on his decades of experience, reflects on the American church’s engagement with race, the future of theological education, and the transformative power of the gospel.

He is the author of The Coming Race Wars, among other books, and is professor emeritus of preaching at Fuller Seminary.

Walter Brueggemann, renowned author and Old Testament scholar, speaks about engaging the Biblical text with an artistic interpretive lens that resists universal generalizations, then participates in a Q&A with the Fuller community.

This audio was recorded during the 2015 Fuller Forum.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

“A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America … May that combination not be overwhelmed by some disaster.” (New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, offering a blessing for election season)

Contemporary political debate and commentary operates from deeply moral sources. People tend to vote their conscience. Our values and ideals, our sense of right and wrong, and our beliefs about what contributes or detracts from the common good often inform our politics.

And across the political spectrum, Americans of all stripes exercise their citizenship and public engagement through a religious faith that grounds it all. So, what better space to explore this conjunction of faith, morality, and political life than The New York Times Opinion section?

Today on the show, Ross Douthat joins Mark Labberton to discuss how his faith and theological commitments ground his moral and political perspectives. Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He’s also a film critic for National Review and was previously senior editor at The Atlantic.

In this episode, they discuss the spiritual and political background of Douthat’s youth and how Roman Catholic Christianity grounded his religious and political views; the challenges for how the Catholic Church and its moral teachings can adapt to contemporary culture; how faith and morality can speak to our dynamic political moment during the 2024 election season; and finally Ross’s hope and faith in divine providence met with confidence in America’s resilience and capacity for good.

About Ross Douthat

Ross Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He’s also a film critic for National Review. Previously, he was a senior editor at The Atlantic. He is the author of several books, including The Deep Places: A Memoir of Illness and Discovery (2021), The Decadent Society (2020), To Change the Church: Pope Francis and the Future of Catholicism (2018), Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics (2012); Privilege: Harvard and the Education of the Ruling Class (2005), and, with Reihan Salam, Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream (2008). His newest book, Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious, will be published in early 2025.

Show Notes

Ross Douthat’s spiritual background as Episcopalian, Pentecostal-Evangelical, and eventually Roman Catholic

Our “spiritually haunted environment”

How Catholicism has changed from Pope John Paul II to Pope Francis

Adapting moral teachings to contemporary challenges

“Many, many of the problems in our culture and the reasons for people's unhappiness are related to issues of sex and relationships.”

“Jesus says incredibly stringent and strenuous things in the Gospels about sex.”

“I think if the church stops having some sort of countercultural message on those issues, then it won't actually be speaking to the big challenges and derangements of our time.”

“All of the developed world is heading over this demographic cliff…”

People aren’t getting married anymore. They aren’t forming relationships anymore.”

Pope Francis, pastoral sensitivity, and making moral concessions to contemporary culture

Pope Francis squelching the Latin mass

Commenting on the dynamics and craziness of our political moment

“Over the course of my career, I have tried to spend a lot of time with the idea that Catholicism in particular, and I think Christianity in general, should stand a little bit outside of partisan categories.”

How the Republican Party can address the needs of the working class

Ross Douthat’s views during the Trump Era

Providence and appealing to God’s control

"Man proposes, and God disposes.”

“The world has grown weirder in general, in the last decade, than it was when I was in my twenties.”

Providence and freedom

Ross’s thesis in The Decadent Society: “The Western world and really the whole planet was sort of stuck stagnant. We'd achieved this incredible level of wealth and technological power, we'd filled the earth and subdued it to some degree, but we were suffering from uncertainty, malaise, and ennui because we didn't know what to do next.”

Space travel and Elon Musk

Looking for help from some other power: God, Aliens, or A.I.

The unique perspective Ross Douthat brings to The New York Times

“As the world has grown weirder, I've felt a little more comfortable being weird myself, and that so far hasn't gotten me fired.”

“You know, not to brag, but yeah, I'm probably the weirdest columnist at a major American newspaper.”

Offering a blessing for the nation’s experience between now and election day

“Life in the United States is an underrated good. Americans have become very pessimistic, very unhappy with each other, sometimes unhappy with themselves … And I think actually, beneath that difficult surface, America has a lot of real strengths and real resilience and American culture is better positioned, I think, than a lot of cultures around the world to navigate the next 50 to 100 years of human history. So I think that should give people some confidence.”

“A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Camille Wooden, senior pastor of Abundant Life Covenant Bible Church, and Len Tang, director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Planting Program, reflect with President Mark Labberton on unlearning church, committing to neighborhoods, and the challenges of church planters.

Camille Wooden planted Abundant Life Covenant Bible Church in Pasadena, California, in 2003. She also serves as the chaplain of the WNBA Los Angeles Sparks.

Len Tang is the director of church planting in Fuller Seminary's School of Intercultural Studies (SIS), which offers courses and a certificate in church planting. SIS was originally founded to proclaim the gospel through training cross-cultural missionaries, then later through equipping pastors at its Institute of Church Growth, and now trains church planters to reach an increasingly post-Christian culture.

Learn more about studying church planting at Fuller: http://fuller.edu/church-planting/

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

Cherie Harder discusses the state of political discourse in the United States and the task of helping leaders to more effectively cultivate ideas and Christian thought amidst today’s wider conversations.

Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum and formerly served in the White House as special assistant to the president and director of policy and projects for First Lady Laura Bush.

Cedric Williams (PhD ’19), founder and CEO of Legacy Consulting & Research Group, talks about his layered experiences of the military, ministry, and psychology, and about his current work of walking alongside others in the process of meaning-making.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Bethany McKinney Fox talks about how our understanding of disability shapes our understanding of healing, of community, and of how we do church.

Bethany McKinney Fox is founding pastor of Beloved Everybody Church and the author of Disability and the Way of Jesus.

Daniel Whitehead describes the work of integrating mental health services into the community offerings of the church, sharing particularly about the efforts of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries.

Daniel is the CEO of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries, equipping churches to support mental health and wellbeing in their community. Learn more at sanctuarymentalhealth.org.

Andre Henry (MAT ’16), writer, singer-songwriter, and activist, shares his personal journey of learning about systemic racism and explains the active and prophetic work he’s taken up against it.

This conversation was recorded on May 7, 2020.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Pamela Ebstyne King, Peter L. Benson Associate Professor of Applied Developmental Science, discusses how community and purpose contribute to human development and flourishing.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Shane Claiborne reflects on what it looks like to follow Jesus in the United States today—discussing policies and issues of gun violence, racial justice, and the death penalty.

Shane Claiborne is a cofounder of Red Letter Christians and the author of multiple best-selling books, including The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical.

Tony Amoury Alkhoury, PhD student in practical theology, shares about his experience of growing up with anxiety and what he’s learned about living in the tension between fear and the reality of God’s presence.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Brad Brisco, director of Bivocational Church Planting for the North American Mission Board, and Lance Ford, co-founder of the Sentralized Conference in Kansas City, reflect together on a theology of place and rediscovering what missionary work looks like in a local context. 

Jennifer Wiseman, astrophysicist and astronomer, delves into the complexity and beauty of the universe and explains how being scientifically informed relates to the flourishing and improvement of life.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Brad Strawn, Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of the Integration of Psychology and Theology, talks about mental health, psychological stress, self-differentiation, and emotional regulation in the context of a divisive political climate.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Tony Hale, Emmy Award-winning actor, chats about his career in the entertainment industry and how the creative process shapes his understanding of humanity and identity.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Anne Snyder joins Mark to discuss the need for deeper listening in the work of genuine encounter and exchange in public life. They reflect on the contributions of public theology to contemporary life, the values of Christian humanism, and the mission and vision of Comment magazine. They also announce an exciting new partnership between Conversing and Comment.

Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information.

For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.

Anne also oversees our Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).

Andy Crouch, author and Fuller trustee, discusses the dramatic changes the world is undergoing during this time of pandemic, focusing on how communities of trust help us navigate grief and the reconfiguration of our lives. The article mentioned in this episode can be read here.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Soong-Chan Rah reflects on the warped theologies that have shaped the American church throughout history and hopes for a new, anointed Christian imagination in the 21st century.

He is the Robert Munger Professor of Evangelism at Fuller Seminary.

Gary Haugen discusses the origins and organizational focus of International Justice Mission and reflects on the intersection between Christian faith and global justice. 

Gary Haugen is a human rights attorney, author, and the founder of International Justice Mission.

Civil rights activist John M. Perkins reflects on his storied life, friendship and justice, and the role of passion to shape our lives together.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Robert Chao Romero and Jeff Liou discuss critical race theory, how it relates to their personal experiences and faith, and what it means for the church in the United States.

Robert Chao Romero is professor of Chicana/o studies and Asian American studies at UCLA. Jeff Ming Liou is the national director of theological formation for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA.

The Rt. Rev. Dr. D. Zac Niringiye, a theologian and activist, explores the gospel, justice, and his formative experiences as a Ugandan bishop.

The Rt. Rev. Dr. D. Zac Niringiye is a theologian, pastor, Bible teacher, organizational development consultant, and a peace and social justice activist. He took an early retirement from his work as Assistant Bishop of the Diocese of Kampala in 2012 to focus on the work of peace and social-political justice in Uganda. He is now a Fellow in the Faculty of Social Sciences at Uganda Christian University, leading a project on Religion, Culture, and Public Life.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

“Reconciliation and reparations were never supposed to be two opposite things.” The Church is called to be a repairer of the breach. Drawing on the prophetic texts of Isaiah and Nehemiah, Brenda Salter McNeil joins Mark to discuss her latest book: Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities.

Together they reflect on the Church’s responsibility for social justice; the call to engage politics for the common good; the nature of systemic injustice and systemic change; empowerment and mutual investment in change; and the importance of moving closer to injustice in order to become a “repairer of the breach.”

Brenda Salter McNeil is a leader in the international movement for peace and reconciliation. She is an Associate Professor of reconciliation studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, where she also directs the Reconciliation Studies program. She also serves on the pastoral staff of Quest Church in Seattle, WA. She is the author of numerous books on Christianity, reconciliation, and racial justice. Follower her @RevDocBrenda.

AB

• Mark introduces Brenda Salter McNeil
• Learn more about Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities
• Isaiah 58 and “As If Worship”
• Isaiah 58:11-12—“And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water whose waters do not fail. And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt. You shall raise up the foundations of many generations. You shall be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of streets to dwell in.
• Repair and reparations
• Brian Stevenson: “Real reparations would mean to repair what was actually broken.”
• “We want to see justice. We want to see change. … Reconciliation and reparations were never supposed to be two opposite things.”
• Why the Old Testament prophetic book of Nehemiah is relevant to the church in this political moment: “I wanted to use a narrative in scripture that showed us how do you actually organize people. That it's not just enough to preach about it on Sundays, there's a way that we've got to bring a diverse coalition of people together and show them that we can rebuild what is broken around us.”
• “How do we retain our identity and our dignity?”
• How asking the right questions can generate empathy and motivate action
• Nehemiah’s Prayer of Confession
• Honest confession, just telling the truth
• Brenda’s son Omari’s social post: “We are always left saddened but not shocked. This will happen again. Another black queen or king doing what should be considered a regular activity will be killed just because. Black people will express outrage while everyone else will continue on relatively unchanged. We'll exclaim, hashtag Black Lives Matter, and we will get countless comments about, What about all lives matter? I'm looking at you, white evangelical churches. The shock will wear off for the rest of the world and we'll be left to rebuild again by ourselves. This cycle is so ingrained in the Black American narrative that we have learned to quickly spring into actionable next steps because we've done this before and we will do it again. We've had no choice but to normalize the trauma and carry on. So to those who wonder, I have no hope that I or my future children will ever live in a world that is quote unquote equal or totally safe or fair, even though I will always fight for it. Sadly for me and so many others, I lost that dream as a little boy.”
• Our own humanity is being diminished in every act of injustice
• Is systemic change possible?
• Individualistic vs communal lenses
• The need to get proximate to injustice in order to become a repairer
• When does proximity help? What causes proximity to stick and create change?
• Empowerment and mutual investment
• The work of justice is ultimately God’s work
• Fannie Lou Hamer’s activism
• James Baldwin: “I can’t believe what you say, because I see what you do.”
• Doing what we say
• “We might not change everything, but in our little corner of the world, we can make a difference in that spot and people get to see a glimpse of the kingdom. And that's life changing.”

About Brenda Salter McNeil

Brenda Salter McNeil is a teacher, preacher, and leader in the international movement for peace and reconciliation. Her mission is to inspire, equip and empower emerging Christian leaders to be practitioners of reconciliation in their various spheres of influence. She is an Associate Professor of reconciliation studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, where she also directs the Reconciliation Studies program. She also serves on the pastoral staff of Quest Church in Seattle, WA. Dr. Brenda is recognized internationally as one of the foremost leaders of reconciliation and was featured as one of the 50 most influential women to watch by Christianity Today. She is the author of Roadmap to Reconciliation 2.0, A Credible Witness: Reflections on Power, Evangelism and Race (2008), The Heart of Racial Justice: How Soul Change Leads to Social Change (2005), coauthored with Rick Richardson, *Becoming Brave: Finding the Courage to Pursue Racial Justice Now,* and her latest book, Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities.

After decades of ministry, John M. Perkins reflects on his legacy with Mark Labberton at the Christian Community Development Association conference. A steadfast leader in the integration of Christian faith and civil rights, Perkins draws on his memories to reflect on the deeper problems behind racism, justice, the redemptive quality of pain and his desire for the church to recover a gospel with “fresh relevance for our days.” For more on the the topic of reconciling race, visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/reconciling-race.

John M. Perkins is a passionate civil rights advocate, community organizer, and founder of the Christian Community Development Association. For decades, Perkins has worked tirelessly to address civil rights, racism, justice, and more—all through the lens of his evangelical faith. His life’s work is an inspiration to many, including faculty and staff at Fuller as the school continues to wrestle with difficult topics of race and justice. To hear community members reflect on their own experiences with reconciling race, visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/story-table-reconciling-race/

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

People have been given so many reasons to despise Christianity. What would it be to communicate with and for the “cultured despisers of the faith”? This was the audience Friedrich Schleiermacher wrote to in his seminal work, The Christian Faith, and it is the audience Mark Labberton sought to speak to when preaching at First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California.

In this Conversing Short, Mark considers the importance of communicating the gospel in its fullness to a culture that understandably despises Christianity, rather than domesticating it as the ecclesiastical industrial complex has.

About Conversing Shorts

“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

19th-century theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher

"Cultured despisers of the faith” (introduced in The Christian Faith and On Religion: Speeches to Its Cultured Despisers)

Darwin, Freud, and Nietzsche

“If you were a cultured person, you would have abandoned the faith.”

“People's life circumstances have, for understandable reasons, left them in a position to despise the faith.”

Reflecting Jesus or reflecting the “ecclesiastical industrial complex”?

Christian questions about what really matters

“The gospel itself, by God's revelation in Christ, if that's true, is a shocking surprise to the world.”

How the Gospel has been domesticated by the Church

Annie Dillard: if we understood the power of what we’re dealing with, we’d hand out crash helmets and seatbelts in church.

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this episode of “Conversing,” pastor Albert Tate reflects on navigating the complexities of pastoral ministry. He and Dr. Labberton discuss personality-driven preaching, supporting younger voices in the pulpit, humility, an unexpected lesson from Pope Francis, and more. Read more articles on preaching at https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/tag/preaching/.

Albert Tate is the founder and lead pastor of Fellowship Monrovia, a multiethnic intergenerational church in Monrovia, California. He speaks widely on diversity in the church, intergenerational ministry, and more, and he serves on the Board of Trustees at Fuller Youth Institute.

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

Beth Moore shares her story of childhood abuse and about finding refuge in the Scriptures, the church, and the love of Jesus.

Beth Moore is an author, speaker, and teacher, and she is the founder and visionary of Living Proof Ministries. She has written numerous bestselling books, including her most recent, All My Knotted-Up Life.

Mary Glenn, affiliate professor with the School of Intercultural Studies, discusses her work as a law enforcement chaplain, her non-profit, Cities Together, and how she helps individuals process grief.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Hunter Farrell examines the impact of capitalism and colonization on congregational mission efforts and invites us to practice radical mutuality as we redefine the meaning of mission.

Hunter Farrell serves as the director of the World Mission Initiative at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and is the author of Freeing Congregational Mission: A Practical Vision for Companionship, Cultural Humility, and Co-Development.

Phil Chen talks about the development of AI and the ethics of sourcing material for large language models like ChatGPT.

This is the third in a series on artificial intelligence, based in part on the work of AI and Faith, an organization which seeks to engage the world in the moral and ethical issues around artificial intelligence. Learn more at AIandfaith.org.

Phil Chen is an investor, a serial entrepreneur, and a senior advisor at Race Capital.

David Swanson, pastor of New Community Covenant Church, considers racial reconciliation not as an optional ministry of the church but as a central part of the church’s identity—one which must be shaped over time by intentional discipleship.

He is the author of Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity (IVP 2020), discussed in this episode.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Todd Shy discusses the encounter between teachers and students, cultivating a classroom community and culture, and the power of passion in teaching.

Todd Shy is the Head of Upper Division at Avenues: the World School and is author of Teaching Life: Life Lessons for Aspiring (and Inspiring) Teachers.

Barbara Williams-Skinner, CEO and co-founder of the Skinner Leadership Institute and co-convener of the National African American Clergy Network, shares about her multifaceted work in pursuit of systemic justice and equity—and the need for prayer through it all.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Fuller Youth Institute’s Kara Powell and Steve Argue discuss the role of empathy in parenting and the ever-shifting challenges facing young adults in today’s culture

Download a free chapter of Kara Powell and Steve Argue’s new book, Growing With.

Jacquelline Fuller, president of Google.org, considers the complex intersections of public policy, technology, and philanthropy. She and Dr. Labberton discuss her previous work at the Gates Foundation, global health initiatives, and fostering a generous office culture.

As president of Google.org and vice president at Google, Jacquelline Fuller manages over $150 million given annually to nonprofits and initiatives around the globe. With a background in public policy and American corporate culture, Fuller helps foster meaningful work through giving.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

“The mystery has great meaning.”

Joy and sorrow don’t have to be dissonant opposites, author Amy Low suggests. There can be harmony in the space between triumph and tragedy. In her recent memoir, *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* she recounts her battle with Stage IV metastatic colon cancer following the end of her marriage.

Her gracious, generous wisdom is beautifully expressed on her book’s back cover: “Through the swirl of prolonged trauma and unbearable grief, a vantage point emerged—a window that showed her the way to relish life and be kinder to herself and others while living through the inevitable loss and heartbreak that crosses everyone’s paths.”

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Amy for a conversation about the lessons she’s learned from living with cancer, including: how to come to terms with our own deaths; dealing with divorce and a traumatic end of a relationship; how to walk the path of forgiveness and humility; the immense complexity and beauty of humanity; how to explore the meaning of mystery without fear; the role of friendship and community in dealing with cancer; and the hope of imagining heaven.

About Amy Low

Amy Low, author of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* has been a storyteller all her life. She grew up in and continues to live life through parables and metaphors. She sees her life as an invitation to discovering the new every day and even records some of these discoveries in her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain. As the managing director for fellowships and non-profit journalism at the Emerson Collective, she directs efforts to empower individuals and newsrooms to strengthen our shared conversation in the public square. Most important, Amy is mom to Connor and Lucy. Her proudest achievement is raising a son and daughter who are unafraid, grateful, and curious, whether in class, at home, on stage, or especially in the band.

Get your copy of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room.*

Follow Amy’s story through her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain.

Being in the last room of one’s life

The profundity and sacredness of discussing one’s “last room”—”the most human place of all”

Bravery, imagination, and generosity

Amy Low’s cancer diagnosis of Stage IV metastatic colon cancer at 48 years old

Discovering metastases

Living in the last room: an unusual place to inhabit in mid-life

There are different ways to live in the last room.

St. Paul’s “last room” as described in the Letter to the Philippians

Lament and levity

Grief and being with people in their last rooms

Being fully alive in the midst of facing one’s death

“I can say with confidence for me that divorce was far harder than cancer. When I had to grapple with the gravity of my disease and the diagnosis and what I was going to face … I had come through a space of the woods that I can say was far more ominous, far harder, far more heartbreaking.”

Divorce

Forgiveness and receiving care from her ex-husband

How to create a new story in the wake of tragedy and trauma

Forgiveness as “releasing people from the negative consequences of their behavior”

“Giving yourself permission to be truly loved, and to be truly released from shame.”

Fear

Amy’s honest, artful, candid expression of her story

“Metaphors are places that hold ambiguity.”

Finding peace with ambiguity and mystery

Joy and purpose

“The worst thing anyone ever said to me was, you know, this whole thing is like so random. … And I thought, ‘No. No. The minute you call this random, the minute this doesn’t have any meaning.”

“The mystery has great meaning.”

Grappling with the tension of purpose and pain

How specific friends stood by Amy in approaching the experience of her cancer diagnosis

“Don’t just do something. Stand there.”

The challenge of receiving without giving much back—and reframing the meaning of “giving back”

The hope of imagining heaven

Heaven on earth as parachuting hot dogs

“The great hope is that we all wake up and we laugh at the good stuff and be brave at the hard stuff.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Danté Stewart shares about his family’s visit to The Legacy Museum in Montgomery, Alabama, and about the sacred experience of knowing the whole story of Black life in the United States.

Danté Stewart is an award-winning writer, speaker, and author of Shoutin’ In The Fire: An American Epistle.

Bobette Buster, writer and producer, who has consulted for Disney, Pixar, and Sony, among other major studios, discusses sound design in the film industry and the powerful role sound plays in storytelling.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Tim Alberta takes a deep dive into the contemporary state of American Evangelicalism in a time of extremism.

Tim Alberta is a journalist, author, and staff writer for The Atlantic.

Pastors Delonte Gholston (MDiv ’15) and Justin Fung (DMin ’19) speak about pastoring in Washington DC and on peacemaking amid the realities of sociopolitical violence.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

Kathy Khang reflects on Asian American experiences of silencing, on what it means to be heard and belong, and on anti-Asian racism during the pandemic.

Kathy Khang is a writer and speaker and is the author of Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up.

Jemar Tisby, author of The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church’s Complicity in Racism, discusses the history of racial inequality in the United States and in the American church.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson talks about how God offers healing and renewal, sets us free from fear, and calls us to love.

She is the owner and president of In-N-Out Burger—whose foundations include the In-N-Out Burger Foundation and Slave 2 Nothing—and is the co-founder of Army of Love.

Matthew Kaemingk talks about cultivating a theology that does not separate worship from work but instead reframes our work in Christian mission and practice.

He is the associate dean for Fuller Texas and assistant professor of Christian ethics.

Robert Chao Romero, professor of Chicana/o studies and Asian American studies at UCLA, shares about the long history of the Latina/o church and the necessity of a holistic gospel, which prioritizes both evangelism and social justice.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

Tara Beth Leach, senior pastor of First Church of the Nazarene of Pasadena, reflects on the complexities of preaching, female leadership, and how she finds comfort in Christ's treatment of the outsider.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Kerry Morrison, program director for Heart Forward LA, shares about her work on mental health with the homeless communities in LA and for her innovative and experimental approaches to taking on the broken systems.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Andrew Root, professor and Carrie Olson Baalson Chair of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary, talks about what ministry, worship, and encountering transcendence looks like in contemporary secular contexts.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Rob Bell, author of Everything is Spiritual and other notable bestsellers, shares about his continuous exploration of spirituality and about embracing the ongoing journey of knowing God more deeply.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Nick Vujicic, evangelist and author, speaks about his life without limbs, his early struggles of finding hope in God, and his understanding of faith and ministry today.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

David Brooks, cultural commentator and columnist for The New York Times, discusses social transformation and the power of commitment in forming communities.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

How can Christians with differing political commitments discuss their views with grace? What is Christlike political engagement? Reflect on these questions and more as Fuller President Mark Labberton interviews President Emeritus Richard Mouw on the topic of political civility. For a reflection on the politics of the church, visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/politics-church-world/.

Richard Mouw was Fuller’s fourth president and now serves as Professor of Faith and Public Life at the school. For years, Dr. Mouw has lectured widely on the subject of “convicted civility,” a method of political engagement that creates space for both convictions and generosity. He has written extensively on political engagement, and he continues to shape and inform Fuller’s voice within the political sphere. Read more of his reflections here: https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/richard-j-mouw/.

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/. For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

What is the role of wisdom in our shared public spaces? Listen as Mark Labberton interviews Krista Tippett, the award-winning radio host and founder of “On Being,” on the importance of embodiment, insights from her decades of conversations with religious and cultural leaders, and more. For more on spiritual formation and wisdom visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/spiritual-formation/.

Krista Tippett is the founder of the Peabody Award-winning public radio broadcast and podcast “On Being,” an interview program on “the big questions of meaning” with leaders in a variety of fields. She speaks and writes widely on the intersection of religious and moral questions in public life and has received a National Humanities Medal for her work. Learn more about “On Being” at http://www.onbeing.org.

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton, visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/. For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

“I’m here because you’re here.”

Berkeley, California is known for being the home to the Free Speech Movement of the 1960s. It was and is the site of many protests, drawing vocal minorities to Sproul Plaza and People’s Park for demonstrations, activism, and public assembly. So it’s come to symbolize what it means to speak out and be heard. But what does it mean to minister to an energized public square?

In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton thinks back to his time ministering in Berkeley, CA. First Presbyterian Church remains a close neighbor to the University of California, Berkeley campus. He describes an approach to public engagement marked by generous listening, a desire to know the individuals so moved to protest and speak out, and offer faithful presence to a community dedicated to protest and activism.

About Conversing Shorts

“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• Berkeley, CA
• People’s Park
• Sproul Plaza (site of famous Free Speech Protests of the 1960s)
• How to intensify their thirst?
• “What I really wanted was a conversation.”
• “Listening to God, which is what the life of Christian worship actually is.”
• “Living a life of listening, which is central to all Christian discipleship.”
• “I’m here because you’re here.”
• “I wish there had been a lineup of protesters outside first press asking, ‘How dare you?’… why are we not gathering protestors?”
• “I was wanting to so authentically speak and preach and live the gospel, that we would be the peculiar people that would cause people to say, ‘Why are you so peculiar?’—not just in that sense of church oddness, but in that deeper sense of why are you the peculiar people of unexplained mercy, unexplained forgiveness, unexplained passion for justice, unexplained sensitivity to individuals, and to societal, social, and systemic needs.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Imagine preaching in front of a crowd of protesters holding a banner: “HOW DARE YOU?” That’s what Mark Labberton did every Sunday preaching in the clear, glass-walled sanctuary of First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California.

In this Conversing Short, Mark reflects on this foundational, animating question that defined his public leadership during his sixteen years as senior pastor of First Pres.

About Conversing Shorts: “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”

About Mark Labberton

Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.

Show Notes

• The clear glass walls of First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, CA
• “You’re doing everything that you’re doing in public.”
• “I wanted to welcome the outside, inside.”
• Berkeley protestors
• An imaginary poster: “How dare you?”
• Accepting responsibility, being held to account by the City of Berkeley
• Preaching in God’s name
• Mark on the question, “How dare you?”: “And it felt like the question was legitimate. How dare you get this land? Why should it be given over to this purpose? What is it that you're worth? What are you actually bringing to the city? On what grounds can you make such outlandish claims? What are the implications of it? How will it show up that you actually live what you're saying? And therefore, how dare you do this both intrinsically? How dare you do this existentially? How dare you do it theologically? But also, how dare you do it culturally and politically and socially.”
• “What does it mean in this place at this time, surrounded by this community of believers and unbelievers, skeptics and critics of every kind?”
• Preaching to the “Cultured Despisers of the Faith” (a term coined by 19th century theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher in The Christian Faith)
• “Having grown up largely outside the life of the Church … I was one of the cultured despisers.”
• Representing classic Christian faith in an entirely unclassical community like Berkeley
• “I felt like if the Christian faith can't show up and make some kind of intelligent, purposeful, meaningful, transformative difference, then there is no case to be made and I should just walk away.”
• What’s worth giving your life to?

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Lorne Buchman discusses how the creative process can become a way of knowing—through improvisation, discovery, and engagement in a space of uncertainty.

Lorne Buchman is the president of ArtCenter College of Design in Pasadena, California.

Kate Bowler, assistant professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School, reflects on her research on the prosperity gospel, her recent stage IV cancer diagnosis, and her desire for authentic faith in the midst of suffering.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

“Wisdom is not just about knowledge. Wisdom adds to knowledge with discernment, with understanding, with a moral sense of what’s right and wrong.”

We live in a time of overflowing and interweaving crises. A global pandemic exacerbates a mental health crisis caused social media technology. The upheaval of American electoral politics caused by an erosion (or breakdown?) of social and relational trust. The rise of nationalism, the proliferation of war, and longing for justice in the realms of gender and race.

Underneath it all appears to be a crisis of knowledge and its convergence around skepticism of science, a culture of suspicion, and confusion about basic factual information, let alone right and wrong.

We need wisdom. Badly. But in times of crisis and chaos, where are we to turn for wisdom?

In this episode Mark Labberton is joined by longtime friend Francis Collins, physician, researcher, and former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Known for his leadership in mapping the human genome, his public service at the NIH spanned three presidencies and culminated with overseeing the national response to Covid-19 pandemic.

The author of many books, including his bestselling The Language of God, Collins’s new book is *The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust,* a reflection on the crisis of truth, science, faith, and trust, and how the exhausted middle might chart a path toward a better future.

About Francis Collins

Francis S. Collins, MD, PhD, is the former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). As the longest serving director of NIH—spanning twelve years and three presidencies—he oversaw the work of the largest supporter of biomedical research in the world, from basic to clinical research.

Collins is a physician-geneticist noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the international Human Genome Project, which culminated in April 2003 with the completion of a finished sequence of the human DNA instruction book. He served as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the NIH from 1993 to 2008.

Collins's research laboratory has discovered a number of important genes, including those responsible for cystic fibrosis, neurofibromatosis, Huntington's disease, a familial endocrine cancer syndrome, and most recently, genes for type 2 diabetes, and the gene that causes Hutchinson-Gilford progeria syndrome, a rare condition that causes premature aging.

Collins received a BS in chemistry from the University of Virginia, a PhD in physical chemistry from Yale University, and an MD with honours from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Prior to coming to the NIH in 1993, he spent nine years on the faculty of the University of Michigan, where he was a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. Collins was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November 2007 and the National Medal of Science in 2009.

Show Notes

• Get your copy of The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust
• “The crisis behind the crisis. It’s the crisis of culture. It’s the crisis of mind and heart. It’s the crisis of society. It’s the crisis of faith.”
• Collins occupying various roles through this book: professor, advocate, mentor, philosopher, coach, scientist, pathologist, and perhaps most saliently, cultural diagnostician.
• Being on the road to wisdom
• Helping those in the exhausted middle, to offer ways to do something to address cultural crises
• Collins summarizes the arc of the book
• TRUTH: “There is such a thing as objective truth. But it is not necessarily very popular in many circumstances.”
• “Facts—*established facts—*are now sometimes called into question because somebody doesn’t like the fact.”
• Jonathan Rauch on the “Constitution of Knowledge”
• “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. He doesn’t say the counter that lies will imprison you, but you might have to think about that.”
• Science as a pathway to the truth
• Anecdotes vs. empirical science
• “We have to bring faith into this conversation if we’re trying to shape a future that it gives you a chance to tap into all the wisdom that's there.”
• TRUST: “I found in my own experience, some of the information that turned out to be most life-changing came from a source that I never would have considered as part of my reliable circle of buddies, but I needed to hear it.”
• “Wisdom is not just about knowledge. Wisdom adds to knowledge with discernment, with understanding, with a moral sense of what’s right and wrong.”
• “Our society is in trouble.”
• Where will the solution come from? No politicians, not media, but only us.
• Empowering people to be part of the solution
• “Love is your calling. Anger and fear are not your calling.”
• “Listen to understand.”
• Don’t distribute information unless you’re sure it’s true.
• Build bridges with neighbours and within communities.
• Braver Angels Website
• “If you put information in front of people that’s well established, they’ll make rational decisions. And I assume that’s what science is all about.”
• Collins’s experience leading the charge to develop Covid-19 vaccines, and then managing the resistance to vaccines
• “People of faith in many instances were the most likely to fall into the category of not trusting what science had to say.”
• The cultural crisis beneath the medical crisis of Covid vaccine skepticism
• Collins reflects on public health responses to Covid-19 (school closures, mask mandates, etc.)
• Systemic breakdown caused by fear, anxiety, distrust, and suspicion
• Collins comments on Anthony Fauci’s public service throughout Covid-19
• Discrediting and redefining science, subverting faith
• Postmodernism and the erasure of objectivity and reason in science
• “Nothing is true except our perspective.”
• Francis Collins’s perspectives on the Christian church
• Christians’ ungrounded fear that this is a war
• Tim Alberta’s book The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory
• “Seeing through a glass darkly.” (1 Cor 13)
• A book of hope and whole human experience
• “There are profound reasons for each of us to engage. This is an argument about not standing aside. It’s crucial to see that what we are fighting for is great and glorious, and worth every bit of the effort from each of us. Truth, science, faith, and trust are not just sources of relief from a painful period in our country’s life. They represent the grandest achievements and insights of human civilization. They literally hold down the promise of a better life for every person on this planet in material terms, in spiritual terms, and in social and cultural terms. To take up this challenge is therefore not an act one of exhaustion or desperation. But one arising from the hopeful pursuit of the promise of greater flourishing of our entire humandom.”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

W. Thomas Boyce discusses new research on sensitivity and resilience in childhood development and talks about how learning to see our children well helps them flourish and thrive.

W. Thomas Boyce is a pediatrician, professor emeritus of pediatrics and psychiatry at UC San Francisco, and author of The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why Some Children Struggle and How All Can Thrive.

Janette Ok delves into 1 Peter, reflecting on what it teaches about the formation of Christian identity and its features of belonging, holiness, and unity.

Janette Ok is an ordained minister and is associate professor of New Testament at Fuller.

Peter Wehner, author and senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, discusses the intersections of faith and politics and considers how to pursue truth and justice in a broken and divided world.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

In the wake of Election Day, Brad Strawn, Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of the Integration of Psychology and Theology, discusses navigating our anxiety and fear while moving toward emotional regulation and empathy.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

Right Reverend Rowan Williams, 104th Archbishop of Canterbury, reflects with President Mark Labberton on a wide variety of pressing topics: his own journey to the Church of England, negotiating power in the global church, and the spiritual disciplines that ground him in the midst of political and religious cross-pressures.

The Right Reverend Rowan Williams, Baron Williams of Oystermouth, is a Welsh Anglican bishop, theologian, and poet. Williams was the 104th Archbishop of Canterbury, Metropolitan of the Province of Canterbury and Primate of All England, offices he held from 2002 to 2012. He was previously the Bishop of Monmouth and Archbishop of Wales, making him the first Archbishop of Canterbury in modern times not to be appointed from within the Church of England. His principal responsibilities as Archbishop were pastoral—leading the life and witness of the Church of England in general and his own diocese in particular by his teaching and oversight, and promoting and guiding the communion of the worldwide Anglican Church.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Cameron Lee, professor of marriage and family studies, reflects on relationships through the lens of romance culture, the complexities of social media, community and peacemaking.

Cameron Lee was the keynote lecturer at the 2018 Integration Symposium, ”Integration and Integrity: The Christian Therapist as Peacemaker.“ Learn more here: https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/fuller-dialogues-therapy-as-peacemaking

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio

Vince Bantu, assistant professor of church history and Black Church studies, talks about the varied dynamics and histories of African American communities around the United States, Black experience in the American church, and his own journey of reclaiming identity through African history and Christianity.

(As Dr. Labberton and Dr. Bantu speak briefly about Juneteenth, FULLER studio has chosen to release this episode outside of its regular schedule, for this very significant day.)

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Rich Stearns, president of World Vision U.S., reflects on international development, insights from his leadership, and the whole gospel.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Shirley Hoogstra, president of the Council for Christian Colleges & Universities, reflects on the complex social and political pressures on Christian higher education and considers why holistic Christian formation is “one of the best avenues to create a deep soul.”

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Shannon Sigler explores the church’s engagement with culture and the integration of worship and the arts, while reflecting on the history and future of Fuller’s Brehm Center.

Shannon Sigler is the executive director of Fuller’s Brehm Center for Worship, Theology, and the Arts.

Today’s complex political climate is an opportunity to reflect on what a distinctly Christian approach to political leadership could look like, says Vincent Bacote. Dr. Bacote reflects with Drs. Labberton and Mouw on the virtue of moral impatience, the importance of active—and hopeful—participation in society, and the opportunity to reimagine what Christian political engagement looks like post-election. For more on political civility, visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/political-civility/

Vincent Bacote is the director of the Center of Applied Christian Ethics and associate professor of theology at Wheaton College. He has written and spoken on topics of Christian ethics, race, and social issues for Fuller in a variety of forms including a lecture at the 40th anniversary of the Pannell Center for African American Church Studies. Watch the lecture and more from the Pannell Center here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47XaAkO6rV8

Richard Mouw was Fuller’s fourth president and now serves as Professor of Faith and Public Life at the seminary. For years, Dr. Mouw has lectured widely on the subject of “convicted civility,” a method of political engagement that creates space for both convictions and generosity. He has written extensively on political engagement, and he continues to shape and inform Fuller’s voice within the political sphere. Read more of his reflections here: https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/richard-j-mouw/.

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at http://www.Fuller.edu/Studio.

Pamela Ebstyne King discusses her research and work on the topic of thriving, as well as her new podcast, With & For.

Pamela Ebstyne King is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science and executive director of the Thrive Center for Human Development.

Tara Beth Leach talks about her experiences as a woman in ministry and her new role as senior pastor of Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois.

Tara Beth Leach is a preacher, writer, and the senior pastor of Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois.

“When we pursue excellence it doesn’t have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” (Ben Houltberg)

How do we form an identity and sense of self? Do we define ourselves based on the fragile glass shelter of what we achieve or how well we perform? If so, how does that affect our sense of meaning and purpose in life?

With the 2024 Paris Olympics underway, it’s easy to imagine how an elite athlete at the top of her game might form an identity based on her athletic or competitive performance.

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes developmental scientist Ben Houltberg to reflect on the pursuit of achievement and excellence, exploring what’s at stake for our psychological and spiritual health when we find our identity and life’s meaning in our performance.

Together they discuss: the glass shelter of athletic achievement and the opportunity that emerges when it inevitably shatters; the various performance contexts of family, relationships, education, sports, career, and religion; the dangers of conditional acceptance based on performance; the performance-enhancing impact of healthy coaching and mentoring relationships; the transformative effects of unconditional love; and ultimately, how to be free from a performance-based identity.

About Ben Houltberg

Benjamin Houltberg is a developmental scientist, experienced marriage and family therapist, and president and CEO of Search Institute. He is associate research professor at the University of Southern California, and was previously associate professor of human development at Fuller Theological Seminary’s School of Psychology. Follow him @benhoultberg, and learn more about Search Institute online.

Show Notes

About Ben Houltberg: developmental scientist, licensed marriage and family therapist, and CEO of Search Institute

About “performance-based identity”

Olympics and athletic performance-based identity

“When we pursue excellence it doesn't have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.”

“What is my purpose?”

Olympic athlete Simone Biles’ public breakdown and dominant return to gymnastics

“If you think about the natural trajectory of an elite athlete, it is towards a performance-based identity.”

How elite athletes form their identity in their athletic performance.

“A Glass Shelter” of athletic achievement: what happens when that glass shelter breaks?

When the glass shelter breaks, it becomes a transformative opportunity.

“Whether it was youth sports and training for a marathon, or whether it was in elite athletes or whether it was in different large organizations and their staff employees … the profile emerges that it is in some ways a human condition: that performance-based identity can really trap us into an approach to life and an approach to relationships and approach to competition that is undermining us and will eventually lead to a shattered sense of self.”

Actor vs performer in the world (Action vs. Performance)

Influenced by what other people think we are

How to understand “performance context” across domains of sports, education, career, relationships, family, morality, and society at large

The dangers of limiting our identities to performance

Conditional acceptance based on performance

Human relationships, connectivity, and collectivism as performance enhancing

Coaching and mentoring to deal with the stress of performing

NCAA sports

Helping young people find “the spark”—their passion and potential and purpose

How the Search Institute studies performance-based identity

Christian faith and unconditional love

How to be free from a performance-based identity

Finding our identity in beauty, connection, and commonality

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Chris Henry talks about the importance of rhythm in the church year and about leadership in a post-pandemic world.

Chris Henry is senior pastor of Second Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Gary Haugen, founder and CEO of International Justice Mission (IJM), reflects on his work in Rwanda, the beginnings of IJM, and the ways Christian spiritual formation naturally leads to working on behalf of the suffering and poor.

Note: This conversation contains explicit descriptions of sexual and physical violence that may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Is perfection possible? And if so, is it worth the cost to your mental and spiritual health?

The quest for perfection haunts many people: students, athletes, employees, parents—and the children of those parents!

While this quest is often framed as the pursuit of excellence, virtue, and success, perfectionism often results in various maladaptive behaviours—such as procrastination, people-pleasing, relational stress, and mental illnesses, including anxiety and depression disorders.

In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Dr. Kenneth Wang, Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology, to talk about the psychological and spiritual dynamics of perfectionism.

Together, they explore the connections between perfectionism and a range of personal and mental health issues, such as depression, achievement, religiosity, racial identity, and self-esteem. They reflect on the cultural obsession with perfection; the severe psychological and social burdens of trying to be perfect; the toxicity of comparison to others; the meaning of being “good enough”; and the spiritual impact of encouraging perfection in education, career, relationships, and personal life.

About Kenneth Wang

Kenneth Wang is Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology. He’s an experienced therapist, and has conducted extensive research that spans the psychology of religion, to mindful meditation, to coping with trauma, mental health and race, moral character and virtue formation, diversity, and cross-cultural adjustment. His expertise is in the psychological study of perfectionism in familial, educational, religious contexts—looking at the phenomenon across a variety of cultures. Visit Dr. Kenneth Wang’s website to take an online assessment for perfectionism and consider guidance and coaching from Dr. Wang.

Show Notes

• Societal perfectionism and the lure of the perfect through technology
• Comparing perfectionism in Asia vs America
• Comparing ourselves to others
• “Editing for the perfect shot”
• “There’s no time to relax or rest.”
• “One thing that's underlying challenges of perfectionism is that we compare ourselves with others and we feel like we're not good enough.”
• Rank-ordered report cards in Taiwan
• The psychological weight of pressure to perform
• Competition and perfectionism
• The elusive search for contentment
• The difference between performance and perfectionism
• Perfectionism’s two core dimensions: (1) striving to meet very high standards of excellence / (2) discrepancy or evaluative concerns—being truly bothered by any amount of imperfections
• “Extreme perfectionists can’t tolerate any imperfection.”
• Shame, rumination, and anxiety
• Kenneth guides Mark through a live perfectionism evaluation
• “Is your best good enough?”
• “Adaptive perfectionism”
• “I did the best I could” vs “I’m sure I always could have done better.”
• Cross-cultural dimensions of perfectionism: wanting to fit in, the exhaustion of trying to get things right, and language apprehensiveness
• Timidity and fear to make a mistake
• Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder and perfectionism
• The view of oneself: performance achievement mentality, seeking validation, unstable self-worth
• Perfectionists magnify imperfections
• Inner critic
• Kenneth Wang’s recovery as a perfectionism
• Can perfectionists forgive themselves for displeasing others?
• How to deal with the emotions that come along with perfectionist catastrophizing
• Training mental muscles to become more resilient to negative emotions
• How to “sit with emotions”
• Japanese Kintsugi practices and the visibility of a history of brokenness: gold paint that highlights brokenness and imperfect repair
• Theological reflections on perfection: “Only God is perfect.”
• How does Christianity speak into perfectionism with grace and truth?
• “I am the vine, you are the branches.”
• Shame and giving up on our illusions of perfection
• Coping with inadequacy
• Allowing God to lead us into the broad place instead of the narrow place
• Fuller Theological Seminary’s “Imperfect Culture Lab”

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Bethany Hanke Hoang and Kristen Deede Johnson, coauthors of The Justice Calling: Where Passion Meets Perseverance, talk about living a sustainable life of working toward justice over the long term.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Francis Collins discusses his experience at the intersections of faith, science, politics, government, and public health—talking also about the COVID-19 pandemic and other areas of research.

Francis Collins is a geneticist, author, and former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Michaela O’Donnell explores our ideas of calling and vocation in our work and beyond—reflecting on discipleship, community, and the centrality of Christ.

Michaela O’Donnell is executive director of Fuller’s De Pree Center, owner of Long Winter Media, and author of Make Work Matter: Your Guide to Meaningful Work in a Changing World.

Daniel D. Lee, assistant provost for the Center for Asian American Theology and Ministry, speaks about the history of racism against Asian Americans and the racism Asian American communities are currently experiencing during this ongoing pandemic.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

Justin McRoberts talks about his upcoming book, Sacred Strides, and the balance of work and rest in life and faith.

Justin McRoberts is an author, coach, speaker, and songwriter. He is the author of six books, including the forthcoming Sacred Strides: The Journey to Belovedness in Work and Rest.

How should we approach disagreements when our deepest convictions and commitments are challenged or questioned? A healthy society is built around the ability to navigate these kinds of disagreements with responsibility and respect, but in our increasingly polarized society, it’s becoming harder and harder to cultivate the habits, skills, and virtues that can keep us united amid our vehement disagreements.

In this episode Mark welcomes legal scholar and law professor John Inazu to discuss how to approach disagreement with wisdom, care, and a commitment to the well-being of the other. John is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He speaks and writes frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, and religious freedom. His latest book is Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect.

Together Mark and John discuss the role of fear management when approaching difficult conversations; how to appreciate the complexity and diversity of perspectives in others; the role of empathy in communication; how to learn to disagree constructively in different life contexts from work to home to politics; how authority, power dynamics, and social roles factor in productive disagreements; the light and dark sides of civility; and how to navigate and negotiate our disagreements with compassion and love.

About John Inazu

John Inazu is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He teaches criminal law, law and religion, and various First Amendment courses. He writes and speaks frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, religious freedom, and other issues. John has written three books—including Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (Zondervan, 2024) and Liberty’s Refuge: The Forgotten Freedom of Assembly (Yale University Press, 2012)—and has published opinion pieces in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, USA Today, Newsweek, and CNN. He is also the founder of the Carver Project and the Legal Vocation Fellowship and is a senior fellow with Interfaith America.

Show Notes

• Get your copy of Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (https://www.jinazu.com/learning-to-disagree)
• John Inazu’s background as a legal scholar and expert on first amendment rights, including the freedom to assemble peaceably, or “the right to peaceful assembly”
• How to learn from lawyers about how to disagree
• How does fear factor into communicating through disagreement?
• What neuroscience has taught as about fear
• “I can understand why you feel that…”
• Well-practiced habits
• Be prepared to engage differently
• Learning how to practice communication outside of a toxic social media or online context
• Empathy and the complexity of others’ views
• Canadian psychological research on empathy
• Avoiding abstraction in order to cultivate empathy
• David Brooks’s book, How to Know a Person
• How to understand fundamental versus surface-level differences
• Heated political issues and the social roles we inhabit
• Power dynamics, authority, and responsibility
• Power dynamics in the classroom
• How to approach disagreement in political protests on college campuses, e.g., Columbia University
• “Part of that responsibility is recognizing that people are hurting in very deep ways. … We’re not talking about abstractions or debating some historical event, we’re talking about real felt emotions.”
• “I'm aware that the capacity for interpersonal interaction has fallen off and it becomes more and more a school, or an environment, or a culture in which disagreement is not allowed.”
• Civility as a virtue or a vice?
• Purely cognitive rationality vs complex, emotional passions
• Fannie Lou Hamer and playing by a different set of social norms and rules
• Polarization and political tensions in partisan America
• “Totalizing positions” and the shrinking possibility of genuine communications
• Shirley Mullen’s book, Claiming the Courageous Middle
• How to uphold convictions without surrendering any ultimate truth claims
• How John Inazu has been shaped, formed, and influenced
• Curiosity and patience
• Close relationships that do formative work
• The Antidote for our cultural moment: “A lot of very small and very personal efforts where individual lives change postures … and contribute to social change with storytelling and exemplars and costly practices.”
• Small incremental steps: Jesus’s metaphor that the Kingdom of God is like yeast
• What would happen if American Christians started listening to the global church?
• What is the role of the imagination in learning to disagree?

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Kat Armas speaks about the profound wisdom and lived theologies of the women who have come before us—in our families, in history, and in the Bible.

Kat Armas is the host of The Protagonistas podcast and is the author of Abuelita Faith.

John K. Chan, founder of Formation Association and lead architect of Fuller’s new campus, explains how buildings influence and activate the community around them.

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.

In this episode of “Conversing,” author and teacher Dave Evans applies the discipline of design to the search for a meaningful life. He and Dr. Labberton consider the “collaborative process” of following God’s will, the role of humility in solving problems, and practical tools for anyone reflecting on their own vocation. Read more articles on vocation at https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/voices-on-vocation/

Evans is an adjunct lecturer in the Product Design Program at Stanford University, a management consultant, and cofounder of Electronic Arts. A coauthor of the book “Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life,” he writes and lectures widely on design principles and vocation.

“Conversing” is a podcast series produced by FULLER studio in which Dr. Labberton interviews leaders on the intersection of theology and culture. Mark Labberton has served as Fuller Seminary’s fifth president since 2013. His experience includes 30 years of pastoral ministry, 16 of those as senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. For more reflections from Dr. Labberton visit https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/contributor/mark-labberton/.



For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit FULLER studio at Fuller.edu/Studio.

“Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” (Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson)

Growing up in Oakland, California, Jackie Thompson didn’t know that sociologists were referring to her neighbourhood as “The Killing Zone”—a part of the city with the highest concentration of homicides. Now, as senior pastor of Allen Temple Baptist Church, the Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson continues to serve the Oakland community throughout its ups and downs, offering a Jesus-centred vision of justice and hope, present to the pain and suffering of the city.

In this episode Thompson joins Mark Labberton for a discussion of her local pastoral ministry in Oakland, California. Together they discuss Jackie’s life and experience as a one of the first women to be appointed senior pastor in a black Baptist church; her college experience at UC Berkeley; what it means to respond to the call of social justice and biblical faith; the blessings and challenges of pastoring a large black church in Oakland; how to centre local ministry on the pain and suffering of a community; the temptation of power; the political season and candidacy of Kamala Harris; and how to “fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.”

About Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson

Described as a transformational preacher, dynamic leader and ministry trailblazer, Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson is an inspiring example of what God can do with a life committed to the call. She currently serves as the beloved senior pastor of the Allen Temple Baptist Church in her native Oakland, California. Her 2019 election made history nationwide as the first woman called to serve as senior pastor of this historic African American Baptist Church founded in 1919. Before being called in this capacity, Thompson served as the assistant pastor at Allen Temple and as youth minister at Shiloh Baptist Church of Washington, DC, the first woman to serve in both capacities.

Committed to excellence in scholarship, Thompson received her bachelor of arts in political economics from the University of California, Berkeley, and a master of divinity from Howard University School of Divinity in Washington, DC. While at Howard, she received the Nannie Helen Burroughs Award for Academic Excellence and the Henry G. Maynard Award for Excellence in Preaching and Ministry. Believing in the importance of both orthodoxy and orthopraxy, Thompson continued her studies at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, where she was awarded the doctor of ministry degree in African American church leadership.

She is a member of the NAACP and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. Her activism and leadership have been recognized by various chapters honouring her with the Community Excellence Award and as Distinguished Woman of the Year. Among other honours, Thompson has been inducted into the distinguished Morehouse College Martin Luther King Jr. Board of Preachers.

Thompson is a gifted preacher, administrator, and published author travelling and ministering extensively nationally and internationally, often in arenas previously unchartered by women. In addition, she has been called on by local and national print and electronic media as an opinion leader to offer perspective and hope amid the pressing issues of the day. She is currently on the teaching staff of the Berkeley School of Theology in the area of public theology and preaching.

Her mission is to see transformation in the lives of others and is humbled by every opportunity to serve.

Show Notes

• Learn more about Allen Temple Baptist Church: https://www.allen-temple.org/
• Growing up in “The Killing Zone” in Oakland, CA
• “There was a really big difference in how we look at something and describe it and how the people who experienced it describe it themselves.”
• “At twelve years old, we started visiting all kinds of churches in Oakland, right? So I've been to every church just about storefront, larger church, every one.”
• The experience of Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland
• Matthew 28:18–20
• Dr. J. Alfred Smith—one of the most beloved heralded African American pastors in the United States
• Restlessness
• Youth ministry in Oakland
• Social justice and biblical faith
• The power of a pastor: “I miss your voice in the choir!”
• Choir for young adults
• The ministry of Dr. J. Alfred Smith—”God was absolutely central and primary, and the point of action that held everything together. And then you had this galaxy of every kind of life experience that was being represented, talked about, honoured, celebrated from children to all, all generations and ages, but also women.”
• “Pastoring was never something I wanted to do. … But what happened was life.”
• “She’s a very dignified, prideful black mom. … And she said, ‘I don’t recognize you before.’”
• Trailblazing as the first female assistant pastor of a major black baptist church
• An imaginative tour of Oakland
• Oakland is a tale of two cities—the hills and the flatlands
• Shifting the narrative about Oakland, violence, justice, and power.
• “I believe part of our responsibility, particularly at Allen Temple, but not just Allen Temple, as people of faith, as people who say that we are followers of the way and that we believe in Jesus—that we call power structures to account.”
• “Fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.”
• Walter Brueggemann: “The numbness that can come with royal consciousness”
• Remaining connected to the epicentre of people’s pain
• Joshua crossing the Jordan: twelve stones to build a memorial
• Good Samaritan on the Jericho road
• The history of Oakland’s ups and downs
• Washington, DC, and the power centre of the world
• “There are no permanent friends. There are no permanent enemies. They’re just permanent interests. … What that taught me is that the players around the table will change. As long as the interest in the centre of the table stays the same, it does not matter how the players change.”
• Oakland as microcosm for other urban cities
• “The temptation is always power.”
• “I try and keep the centre of the cross with the vertical and the horizontal meet before the eyes of the people in a way that they can see it, that they can grab hold to it, and they can decide how that, that’s how will they, they centre and position themselves in there for the cause of the kingdom.”
• “What is the burden that you feel like you're primarily carrying?”
• “Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.”
• Comparing Obama’s nomination to Kamala’s nomination
• Focusing on the needs of the people
• Thompson’s preaching as centring the pain on a deeper centre of Jesus Christ

Production Credits

Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Rick Warren shares about his many years of ministry—from the beginnings of Saddleback Church to his current work of participating in the Great Commission—and about what he’s learned of leadership, church, and God along the way.

Rick Warren is a pastor, an author, and the founder of Saddleback Church. He is also executive director of Finishing the Task.

Erin Dufault-Hunter discusses the COVID-19 pandemic and vaccine rollouts, considering questions of ethics, broken systems, and neighborly love.

She is associate professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Seminary.

Resources discussed in this episode include the following—which are not necessarily representative of FULLER studio or Fuller Seminary:

“Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines” according to the CDC.

“Christians and the Vaccine,” a project of Redeeming Babel addressing “common spiritual questions Christians have regarding the vaccine.”

“How mRNA Vaccines Work,” a short video by Harvard University explaining mRNA vaccines.

Elijah Davidson explores the movement of God’s Spirit throughout cinematic history—in and through the world’s greatest films and the work of filmmaking itself.

Elijah Davidson is co-director of Brehm Film, author of Come & See: A Christian Guide to the Greatest Films of All Time, and creator of the Come & See devotions and community.

Shirley Mullen talks about the work of intentional engagement in our polarized contexts and advocates for actively bridging divides in our society.

Shirley Mullen is president emerita of Houghton College, where she served for 15 years, and author of Claiming the Courageous Middle: Daring to Live and Work Together for a More Hopeful Future.

Tod Bolsinger, senior congregational strategist and associate professor of leadership formation, speaks about the importance of resilience, vulnerability, and self-reflection in the development of a leader.

Jennifer Wiseman shares about the journey of her finding a career in science, the interactions and connections between science and faith, and the upcoming solar eclipse.

Jennifer Wiseman is an astrophysicist, author, and speaker, and she is director emeritus of the program of Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion (DoSER) for the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Russell Moore, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, reflects with Mark Labberton on the impact of the civil rights movement, the need for a new moral imagination in American Christianity, and more.

As a public theologian, Russell Moore speaks and writes widely on the intersections of evangelical faith, politics, and social issues. Prior to serving as president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, he was the dean of the School of Theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Moore also discusses Carl F. Henry, an important voice in early American evangelicalism and one of the founding members of Fuller Theological Seminary. For more on the beginnings of Fuller Seminary, visit here: http://fuller.edu/about/history-and-facts/our-history/

For more resources for a deeply formed spiritual life, visit Fuller.edu/Studio.