Bloody Angola Podcast by Woody Overton & Jim Chapman (Envision Podcast Productions)

In this Part 2 we wraps up this series "The Richest Man in Bloody Angola" .

In this episode, we dive into the story of Wilbert Rideau, a man who spent 44 years in prison for a crime he committed in 1961. 

We explore his journey from a young man involved in a tragic incident to his time in prison, including solitary confinement and his reflections on regret and survival. 

We discuss his various trials, legal battles, and ultimately his release after being found guilty of manslaughter in his fourth trial. Wilbert's transformation during his time in prison, his accomplishments as a journalist, filmmaker, and author post-release, and the challenges he faced reintegrating into society are all highlighted. 

We also touch on the perspectives of the victims' families and the complexities of forgiveness and redemption. 

The episode explores the question of rehabilitation and whether Wilbert Rideau, now a successful author and consultant, has truly changed from the person he was in 1961. 

Ultimately, we reflect on Wilbert Rideau's journey and the contrasting feelings of justice, forgiveness, and the ongoing impact of his release.

Timestamps:

0:01:51 Facing Regrets and Solitary Confinement

0:03:37 Hope in Solitude

0:06:30 The Hope of Clemency

0:09:39 Linda LaBranche's Support

0:13:55 Legal Dream Team with Johnny Cochran

0:16:47 Judicial Rollercoaster

0:21:33 Opening Statements of Fourth Trial

0:26:01 Conclusion of Fourth Trial

0:28:44 Rideau's Release and Community Divide

0:37:00 Concerns and Plans Post-Prison

0:39:14 Wilbert Rideau's Biographical Success

0:41:58 The Richest Man in Bloody Angola

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In this PART 2 episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, woody and Jim continue to bring you into the case of the murder of Audra Bland. In 2007 William Lee Jr. was convicted of her murder and sentenced to life in prison at Louisiana State Penitentiary. A new law passed in 2021 made way for a reduction in his sentence, but that was just the start of a winding roller coaster ride that eventually led to the Louisiana State Supreme Court and a landmark decision pushed by Governor Elect and Attorney General Jeff Landry.

(part 2 of a 3 part series)

#bloodyangolapodcast #Thelakehousemurder #williamleejr #Podcast #Louisianastatepenitentiary #jefflandry #louisianaact104

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In this episode of "Bloody Angola," we share Joe Williams' daring escape from Angola prison, detailing his evasion for four days fueled by mushroom tea.

Timestamps:

08:17 A Desperate Decision

15:54 Early Life and Upbringing

25:20 Revisiting Clemency

27:14 Recent News: Drug Trafficking Conspiracy

30:06 Smuggling Contraband: Washington Parish Jail

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Woody Overton and Jim Chapman of Bloody Angola Podcast tell the story of Clifford Etienne and the Louisiana Prison Boxing Program at Louisiana State Penitentiary and other prisons.

#cliffordetienne #theblackrhino #bloodyangolapodcast #podcast

Full Transcript

Bloody Angola Podcast ( THE BLACK RHINO)

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Welcome, y'all, back to another episode of Bloody Angola. And we appreciate you listening and liking, subscribing, and all that good stuff.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: We want to thank our Patreon members who are very instrumental in the show. Y'all stay tuned at the end of the show and we're going to talk about that some more. But, Jim, today we've got something-- We always said it'd be different. Today, this is a very, very interesting story, which I do have a lot of personal connection with.

Jim: I think we can title this one The Black Rhino.

Woody: The Black Rhino. Absolutely. I knew the Black Rhino when he was becoming the Black Rhino. This guy's name was Clifford Etienne. And that's, y'all, not from South Louisiana. It's E-T-I-E-N-N-E. Clifford Etienne grew up in New Iberia, Louisiana, home of tabasco. We call it affectionately the Berry. If you're from South Louisiana, they just call it the Berry. I got paternal brothers from down there and Bobby [unintelligible 00:03:03], if you're listening, shoutout, Probation And Parole, State of Louisiana.

Jim: But there's not much out there either. It's the tabasco plain if you're going to New Iberia pretty much.

Woody: It's growing up a lot over the years, but back then, and specifically in this time frame that I'm going to be talking about, Clifford Etienne was coming up and he was truly, basically a stud.

Jim: Yeah. He dominated in wrestling. He played baseball. Woody: Linebacker in football.

Jim: Track and field. He threw the disc and the shot. Woody: 6'2", 290 pounds.

Jim: Big boy. And was recruited by LSU, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, which these days are dominant, but back in those days were extremely dominant.

Woody: And recruited as a linebacker. And he just was a stud-stud. But sometimes, life happens and people try cocaine or different things or they hang with the wrong crowd. And that's what Clifford started to do. He could have had the world as his oyster, and he would it in later years and seems like history repeats itself, unfortunately. Back then, on a certain day in Lafayette, Louisiana, when Clifford was a young man--

Jim: Yeah, he was 18. As most 18-year-olds do, he was getting away with what he could, and him and four friends decided it would be a good idea to rob some customers at a shopping mall in Lafayette.

Woody: It was the only shopping mall in Lafayette at the time. And that was in 1988. I was there in 1989. And when USL was USL, now it's ULL. Go, Cajuns.

Jim: Yes.

Woody: But they robbed some people. And ultimately, he got busted.

Jim: Yeah, he got sentenced to 40 years. The first stint was Bloody Angola. That was where he first went.

Woody: And 40 years, y'all, would have been the minimum on armed robbery. It carries up to 99 years in the state of Louisiana. I think he was like 18 years old, he gets sentenced and they ship him to Bloody Angola.

Jim: That's right. Eventually, after a few transfers, he ends up at DCI.

Woody: That's Dixon Correctional Institute, y'all. That's where I would come to know him. What happened was I was working the working cell block, which y'all heard me talk about before. It's different than admin seg, because there's two men to a cell. But working cell block is where you only get sent for major rule violations. Basically, for street charges, whether you're smuggling, dope, you attack an officer, you rape somebody, or you fight with weapons. Now, I had two tiers of the working cell block that I ran and I can remember distinctly, Clifford Etienne was in the cell with a guy from Livingston Parish, a white guy from Livingston Parish. Now, Clifford Etienne is a black man, and they were in the next to the last cell at the end of the tier. The tier only had cells on one side, y'all, face the screen windows. They had a couple of black and white TVs down the tier.

But I would stop and talk to them all the time because the guy from the LP, I knew him from the street, and I knew him back from the club days. We knew some of the same people. You're not supposed to become friends and stuff with the convicts, which I submit to you that when you are working 12-hour shifts in two on, two off, three on, two off, two on, three off, but even on my days off, the Department of Corrections was always short and they had an on call list. Basically, I could work 30 days a month.

But I'm doing time just like they're doing time. I was doing time just like they were doing time. They locked those doors behind you on that 12-hour shift, you can only shower them and feed them and have nurse calls so much and shit gets a little boring. So, I would stop, and I did a couple of years back there-- and I say it, I'm like a convict, but it [Jim chuckles] really was like doing time. Did a couple of years back there. When you get locked up on the working cell block, once you get locked up, you have to do 90 days without a low court or a high court write-up. You go back before the board and they basically hear your case as to whether or not you can be released in general population. Well, the problem with that is, y'all, in the working cell blocks, basically, they're worst of the worst because these are people that can't even follow the basic rules in prison, even the small rules, and the ones that, like I said, were back there for serious charges. Now, the white guy in the cell was back there for having or suspicion of having sex with a female guard. That's a no-no, but it is what it is, right?

[laughter]

Woody: If you can get over and do what you do, that's what they're going to do. Now, his cellie was Clifford Etienne. So, I began to talk to him. Look, this is a massive dude. Now, I was 6'2", probably 250 at the time. And he's 6'2", 300 pounds but he was all muscle. I mean, like solid as a rock. But he was a really cool dude, and I say that. I know he robbed people and shit like that, but he could have been an asshole to me or anything else, but I would hang out and stand in front of the cell late at night and shit. I'm entertainment for them also. We were talking and I found out that Etienne was a boxer, and he was actually on DCI's boxing team, but also found out that he was an accomplished artist.

He asked me when we're talking one night, said, "You married? You dating someone?" I said, "I'm dating someone." "Can you give me a picture of her?" "Bro, I'm not bringing you a picture of my girlfriend." [Jim laughs] He said, "No. I'm an artist. I'm going to draw a picture and you can give it to her." So, the next time I came back to work, I got a little snapshot and I gave it to him. The next evening, I came back to work, and he had hand sketched an exact likeness of this girl. And I can't remember her last name. I think her first name was Debbie. It was just fucking piece of artwork and I was blown away. It's on a basic piece of paper done in pencil. I'm like, "Bruh, you got talent." I didn't know what I would come to find out later on and what we're going to talk about.

Also, I talked to him about boxing because I like boxing, and I like to box. Both of my grandfathers went to college for boxing, one at USL and one for LSU. They boxed on the college boxing teams. I asked him, I said, "You get into a fight--" just more like bullshit. I said, "If you're going to hit somebody." He said, "Woody, if you're going to hit somebody, I want you to hit him hard as you can in the stomach. Don't let him know it's coming. You rear back, full body swing. Hit him in the stomach." And I said, "Why is that?" He said, "Because if you do it right, you're going to knock the air out of him. Then, they're defenseless. You can just beat him to a pulp."

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: He would go on to become the Interprison Boxing Champion for the state of

Louisiana. Y'all, each prison has their own boxing team, and it's big shit.

Jim: Yeah. I'm going to tell you about his reputation in prison and a little bit about a trainer that had actually started working with him in prison. There was a guy named Valrice Cooper. And Valrice Cooper had a nickname. It was Whoop. They called him Whoop because of boxing. Whoop, whoop. That's how he would say when you punch. It was a whoop. Everybody knew Whoop in the prison system. He was a steward of the Louisiana prison boxing scene. He was an inmate himself. Whoop, he didn't have the pleasure of meeting Etienne until after the boxer-- He was already the most dominant prison fighter in Louisiana. As Woody said, these different prisons have their own boxing teams. Angola has one, DCI has one. There's one in North Louisiana.

Woody: Hunt.

Jim: Hunt has one. This is a big deal in prison, these boxing teams. Whoop was the guy

who kind of managed that, even as an inmate.

Woody: Basically, helped Etienne perfect his craft better.

Jim: Absolutely. He had heard about this guy, this 6'2", 290-pound fighter, and he started working with Etienne. From the first second he saw him, he could tell from his movement, he had a ton of natural talent. He countered right, he stepped back right, he circled correctly. As a matter of fact, Whoop would describe him as a prison version of Muhammad Ali, y'all. That's how good he was. Anybody describes you as Muhammad Ali, you're good. But the

prison version of Muhammad Ali from a guy who really knew that sport was amazing. Etienne continued to dominate in the prison world. He actually won 30 bouts, never lost.

Woody: Y'all, real quick. Certainly, they would practice amongst themselves at Dixon Correctional Institute, etc.

Jim: Shadow box.

Woody: Right. Well, you're locked in a cell, you got a lot of time to shadow box. Jim: [laughs] That's right.

Woody: These bouts we're talking about that, they would actually go to other prisons, or sometimes they would host it there, and they would fight against other prisoners in the state. At the end of the year, whoever had the most wins got the banner.

Jim: That's right. And these were big deals. As a matter of fact- Woody: Huge.

Jim: -family of these prisoners would go to the boxing matches and they would have to pay. They would have to buy tickets. It was $5 for adults, $3 for children back then, and you would watch as if you were watching sanctioned event on HBO.

Woody: Even though they wore headgear, the bouts were three 3-minute rounds. I would bet you people love to go see the radio because they care about getting hurt and laying up in an infirmary in the air conditioner rather than a cell block. I bet you these guys got in there-- I wish I would have got to see one and just tried to absolutely annihilate each other.

Jim: I'm sure there was a lot of first-round knockouts. Headgear or no headgear. Woody: Headgear really doesn't mean shit.

Jim: [laughs]

Woody: It's not like you're wearing the NFL helmet.

Jim: Oh, yeah. Some of these people are lifers, y'all. Look, they're in there and they're swinging. You've heard on Real Life Real Crime, Woody described like prison muscle. It's a totally different type of muscle and all these guys had it. He fought in the heavyweight and the super heavyweight divisions. So, he was fighting the baddest of the bad, the biggest of the big-

Woody: And beating them.

Jim: -and beating them. Just never losing, 30 bouts inside. And that gets around. Outside of the prison system, Don King and all these guys are hearing about this Clifford Etienne and how he is the toughest man in prison and winning all these bouts. After his 10th year in prison, he gets paroled.

Woody: Right, which is basically, y'all, I would tell you that that's because of the outside influences from these promoters. They were like, "This guy can be heavyweight champion of the world." They go in for the parole board, "Look, we got contracts. We're going to train him. We're going to keep him on the straight and narrow. He can be on parole if need be, but we need permission to get his boxing license and everything else."

Jim: Well, let me tell you how promoters think. Number one, you've got an extremely talented individual to start with. He's getting paroled from prison. Here's your chance. I don't know if this is fact, but I would imagine his success helped with his parole because in a parole board's mind, this guy can probably actually rehabilitate and change his life because he's going to have unique opportunities not everybody is going to have when they're released from prison. He was well known.

Woody: Let me digress for a second. The reason he was on the working cell block, he got in a fight with a guard, with a correctional officer--

Jim: Named Woody Overton.

Woody: No, it wasn’t me.

[laughter]

Woody: I wouldn’t have fought that dude. [laughter]

Woody: He got in a fight with a correction officer. Now, when they went to the board hearing, and I remember telling me this, he had already been on the boxing team. So, the board considered his hands deadly weapons. So, they charged him with fighting with deadly weapons on a correction officer.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Woody: That's why he got sent to the hole for that. Now, he did his 90 days, maybe a little bit longer, maybe he went twice, I don't remember. But he got out while I was still there. He was good. He was locked on the block. He was good. He was never any problem. He was actually a pretty cool dude. He got out. You know why he got out too? He wanted to box again. He was like, "Fuck that. Imma going to behave. I know my future is in boxing."

Jim: Yeah, he was just the shit, y'all, in the Louisiana prison system and really the national-- He was well known in prisons all over the country as probably the best boxer to ever come out of prison. You're talking about-- look, Sonny Liston came out of prison, and he was getting a lot of comparisons to Sonny Liston. These promoters, they're not only salivating at the chance to get a hold to a guy who has an extreme amount of talent, he also had a hell of a story, and they loved that. He had a nickname in prison, which was the Black Rhino. Come on, y'all, if that don't scare you before you fight the 6'2", 290-pound boxer, I don't know what does.

Woody: Basically, he got that because the most dangerous animal in the world, the Black Rhinoceros or the Black Rhino was the name that he embraced. Like Jim said, these promoters, holy shit, now you got the Black Rhino coming out of prison that would sell tickets regardless.

Jim: Look, you can't spin a better story with all this. He gets out and he turns pro in 1998. Woody: That was five years after I left him or after the last time I saw him.

Jim: So, how does he do? Well, his first four opponents, he knocked them out. As a matter of fact, three of those first four was inside of the first ring.

Woody: He's cold cocking people.

Jim: Cold cocking people. Ring Magazine actually named him-- believe it or not, y'all, he

was later named The Most Exciting Heavyweight Fighter of the 2000s. Woody: That's true.

Jim: How about that?

Woody: He absolutely was destroying people. I remember late 80s, early 90s, when Tyson was coming up, and when pay per view had first come out, and we had all put up $20 and got a keg of beer, and he knocked out Spinks in like 30 seconds or whatever it was. Black Rhino was doing the same thing. A lot of the times, when big guys fight, they'll get tired and they'll hug on each other and stuff. Black Rhino didn't have time to get tired. He was annihilating people, like Tyson did when he was young.

Jim: Yes. And loving it. And what's he doing? He's living his best life, y'all. He's making tons of money. He's knocking people out for a living. Everybody's courting him. And he does what sadly, a lot of-- seems like it's not just athletes, but it seems like they struggle with this because there's so much of an influx of money under such a short period of time.

Woody: And fame.

Jim: And fame and all of that, that he starts dabbling in cocaine. Woody: Right. A line here, a line there.

Jim: Yeah. Give me a little bit of that sugar, whatever you tell them.

Woody: In the beginning, you think you can handle, it makes you feel even better. You're already on top of the world. Remember, you came from a working cell block. First of all, you got out in 10 years instead of 40. You come from a working cell block. You build yourself up to the prison boxing system, and now you're building yourself up as one of the top heavyweights in the world.

Jim: That's right. And he continues on. He continues knocking people out, and eventually he scoops up the IBA Continental heavyweight title. He actually won that title in Baton Rouge.

Woody: In Baton Rouge. It was at the Belle of Baton Rouge in the atrium. I didn't get to go for whatever reason, but I remember when it was happening and the white guy from the cell reached out to me, said, "I can get you tickets. Do you want to come see him?" And I couldn't go for whatever reason. But yeah, he won that there. Even though that's not like the biggest championship in the world, it's still a championship belt.

Jim: That's right. And continues on. Eventually, he suffers his first loss, that was in March of 2001, and y'all, it was a beating. He actually got floored seven times in that bout.

Woody: Knocked down seven times, and on the eighth, I think the referee finally stopped it, but he said it was just basically like a blood bath. But Black Rhino never gave it up. You knocked me down two times, I'm probably going to stay down. Seven times, but he kept getting up and fighting back.

Jim: That's it.

Woody: Finally, the ref is like, "Number eight, I got to stop this shit, he's going to kill him."

Jim: Yeah, he went out on his shield and never quit. After that bout, you may start to think, "Well, that was it." Well, no. Etienne couldn't be stopped. He ended up fighting six more bouts after his loss and knocked everybody out. He was again the talk of the boxing scene. When you become that much of the talk of the boxing scene, eventually you're going to run into somebody you got to fight.

Woody: When he was talking to the boxing scene, basically, besides being the Black Rhino, and he was always compared to young Mike Tyson.

Jim: Yeah. They actually knew each other before the opportunity showed its face and always got along. If you're a Tyson fan, you would know that he grew up very rough. He was very similar to Etienne, except for Cus D'Amato discovered Tyson before he had gotten so far out of hand that his whole life would have been spent in prison. Much younger when Tyson got discovered at 12 years old by Cus D'Amato. Etienne and Tyson had a respect for each other because they both came from the streets, they were both super tough, both amazing boxers. And in 2003-

Woody: Memphis, Tennessee. Jim: That's it. Tyson come a calling.

Woody: Tyson came calling. That was the first fight-- if y'all remember this, that was the first fight that Tyson had the tribal tattoos on his face.

Jim: Yes. If Tyson wasn't scary enough, he comes out-- and look, Etienne, I'm sure, was intimidated just like-- Tyson can intimidate anybody. I don't care how tough you are. Yeah. Except for Holyfield maybe. [laughs]

Woody: Yeah, he bit his ear off.

Jim: He did do that. In 2003, Tyson, the pinnacle of boxing and the Etienne fight, and Tyson

beats the shit out of Etienne in 48 seconds.

Woody: Now, the same guy from the LP, I talked to him after that, and he told me that what happened is one of the first punches that Tyson landed hit the Black Rhino on his eardrum and it busted his inner ear. So, Etienne's equilibrium was off, and he couldn't even defend himself.

Jim: Yeah. Could you imagine how hard Tyson hits to bust your freaking inner eardrum? Woody: In one punch. To Etienne's credit, he tried to stand and do whatever, shit, your room

spinning. I can't imagine that. Tyson, he ain't going to quit punching.

Jim: [laughs] No, he ain't. And I will never forget the interview, because actually, I can distinctly picture myself when I watched that live. I actually watch that fight live. After the broadcast, Jim Gray, who was a famous interviewer in boxing, pulls Tyson and he says, "What did you think of Etienne?" and all that, "And how did your training go?" Tyson says, "I broke my back last week." [laughs] And I'll never forget. I was like, "What?" It was bizarre, y'all.

Woody: That's crazy.

Jim: He supposedly broke his back in training.

Woody: The reason they were fighting in Memphis, Tennessee, Tyson couldn't get licensed in Nevada or anywhere else because of the rape allegations and all that.

Jim: Yeah. If you're getting a little upset about Etienne because he lost and all that, don't cry for him too much.

Woody: He made a million bucks.

Jim: [chuckles] Literally a million bucks in 48 seconds.

Woody: Paid for 48 seconds, I think I could last for 48 seconds. He might have hit me in the back of the head, but I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off. For 48 seconds, I'm going to give you a show for a million dollars.

Jim: For a million dollars.

Woody: I'll fight Tyson a day for a million dollars.

Jim: I'm telling you. Yeah. Etienne gets that million bucks. He unfortunately does what a lot of people who get money that never had money do. And that is he blows it. He buys sports cars, jewelry, multiple houses, and he actually got into a couple of businesses that suffered. He was in a busing company. It went nowhere. He opened a restaurant-- or he actually started a restaurant that never opened. He did the cardinal sin in any business which is, didn't pay his taxes.

Woody: Right.

Jim: I don't care who you are, ask Al Capone about that.

Woody: Tax man cometh.

Jim: Tax man cometh. So, he's spiraling downward.

Woody: Yeah. He's not surrounded by the best people either, taking advantage of him. Like I said, he never had so many cousins.

Jim: Okay. He's going along in life, Etienne, and he's making a lot of bad decisions. At some point, he decides it is a good idea to go get some money as he was spending all of his. [crosstalk] He figures, what better place to get money than a check cashing place, right?

Woody: Genius idea.

Jim: The only problem was he didn't have no checks. Woody: He didn't have a checkbook.

Jim: He didn’t have anything to cash.

Woody: I'll tell you what he did have, he had a pistol. Jim: He had a pistol.

Woody: He had a cocaine habit.

Jim: And a bad cocaine habit.

Woody: Getting as high as fuck, yeah.

Jim: That's right. Etienne goes to a check cashing place in Baton Rouge with a gun, and he pulls the weapon, and he decides he's going to hold up this check cashing place, and he gets a little-- I guess you could say a little pushback on that from the check cashing people. He takes a gun, and he shoots it in the air, and he says, "I will kill you, bitch." That's exactly what he said, because they have it on recording because she was dialing 911 while this was going on.

Woody: She was an African American.

Jim: African American female. Eventually, he gets in his hands $2,000 after he fires that

thing in the air, and he hauls ass out of there.

Woody: Right. Unbeknownst to him, the silent alarm had been hit and Baton Rouge PD was responding in force. They met him in the parking lot.

Jim: They did. They were there really fast for a specific reason. And that was that same day, sadly, an officer in Baton Rouge named Terry Melancon who was serving a warrant with some other officers in Baton Rouge was tragically killed.

Woody: They were making the entry-- we call it a high-risk warrant. It was a narcotics warrant. They were making entry in the door, and he was shot and killed. Rest in peace, brother. I was on the SWAT team at the time that happened. We went from serving high-risk warrants narcotics-- We used to do them every day without the SWAT team because the SWAT because it took so long. The policy got changed after that. Any high-risk entry warrant, you had to use the SWAT team. Rest in peace, brother.

Jim: Yeah. It was really just more bad timing for Etienne as this was going on, they were able to easily get there.

Woody: Before they got there, he's trying to make an escape. Well, you know what? I think he [unintelligible 00:31:37] this time, he goes rob a check cash in place with a piece of shit pistol, and he leaves, and he's trying to make his getaway, and he makes two attempts.

Jim: That's right. An officer with the Baton Rouge City Police Department, who was in an Exxon station across the street from the cash door, received a report of an armed robbery in progress. Comes over his radio, and the officer observed one of the check cashing employees actually outside of the business at this point, and he could tell she was panicking. At this point, he goes across the street and he starts talking to her and he says, "Did you report an armed robbery?" And she says, "Yes." A bunch of police officers at this time are pulling up. It becomes pandemonium. Etienne escapes into a little wooded area, and when he comes out of that wooded area, he sees a vehicle, and he just jumps in the vehicle. I guess he thought he was going to hot-wire it or whatever. He didn't realize when he jumped in there were two children in the back of that vehicle.

He goes to start it, realizes, "Oh, shit, there's no keys." The lady had ran into this beauty supply place and just left her kids in there while, I guess, she was quickly grabbing shampoo or something. He goes to steal that vehicle, realizes the keys aren’t on in it, and the cops are kind of on to him at this point. They're pursuing him through the woods, and he's panicking. He's in a bind and--

Woody: Still armed.

Jim: Yeah, still armed. He immediately exits the vehicle, and he has his weapon in his hand, and he aims it at two police officers.

Woody: Not only does he aim it- Jim: He pulls the trigger. Woody: -pulls the trigger.

Jim: And the gun jams.

Woody: Click. It's probably a piece of shit, high-tech 9-millimeter or whatever. I'm sure if it was an expensive weapon, he could have traded for coke instead of trying to rob a cash store. He pulled it and pulled it again.

Jim: He panics again, obviously, because at this point, y'all, Etienne just tried to shoot two police officers. If it wasn't for that gun jamming, he would have shot them, possibly killed them. So, he panics. He runs to a gold Pontiac Grand Am. He opens the door, and there's a driver in there. He puts the gun to the driver's head. He says, "Get out." The driver, he protests this. Why? Because his two young children are in the vehicle.

Woody: It's kiddie daycare around there.

Jim: That's it. Etienne pulls him out of the car physically, throws him to the ground, jumps in the car, and starts to drive away in reverse at a high rate of speed. He just basically goes backwards. He gets about 60ft. The vehicle hits a curb, and it stalls. Officers approach the vehicle with the weapons drawn, and they apprehend Etienne. How do you think that apprehension went?

Woody: I don't know, man. I mean, his weapon's jammed, and what we call a felony stop, I'm sure Black Rhino ended up getting some dirt in his face.

Jim: Oh, I can look. And then, don't forget, they are already dealing with that day a police officer getting shot and killed.

Woody: Absolutely. And you just tried to kill--

Jim: And you just tried to kill two more. If I'm a police officer, you're getting a fist to the face. Woody: Yeah, well, definitely.

Jim: Swim would have punched him.

Woody: Yes, Swim.

Jim: [laughs]

Woody: Swim would have gave him some justice, that was just us. But he might have sprung a leak too. Anyway, he gets arrested, armed robbery, two counts of attempted first-degree murder on police officers. So, God or somebody was taking care of them and those officers letting that pistol jam.

Jim: Amen.

Woody: He gets prosecuted, y'all, by the Baton Rouge's DA's office. And the prosecutor was Prem Burns. Now, I don't think we've ever talked about her on Bloody Angola, but I know her. I've been in the courtroom with her. She is fire. They had their best prosecutor on it, Hillar Moore's best prosecutor. The DA generally, in bigger parishes, is a political figurehead who oversees all the cases, but they have their top lieutenants or generals, whatever you want to call them, that handle the big cases. Prem Burns was the one.

Jim: And well known for the serial killing.

Woody: Yeah. For Derrick Todd Lee. As well as every top case in East Baton Rouge. She said that across 34 years and 100 plus felony cases and even taking down meddling cartel members and serial killers that she recalls looking at Etienne and thinking, that dude is huge, she remembers the day he was sentenced, he said something to her like, "I'm so sorry. The drugs were just really bad for me." But Burns also remember the 911 call and the words Etienne barked out that were recorded on security footage says, "I'm going to kill you." She remembers using that against him in her opening remarks. She remembers the jury convicting the boxer quickly and easily.

Years later, the prosecutor picked apart Etienne's processing the trial, and he said he received insufficient representation. She was like, "Dude, you could have Johnny Cochrane and you weren't getting off on this charge." And the jury are possibly in prejudice. She was like, "Your victims were black. You're black. It's not a racial issue." Anyway, he got sentenced to forever this time, but for luck, he would have been on death row. Y'all, he got 160 years. And guess where he was going? Bloody-

Jim: -Angola.

[chuckles]

Jim: No doubt about it. And look, let's recap real quick. This is a guy that just a couple of years-- as a matter of fact, a year before this, had just gotten a million dollars and fought arguably the most-- I would say the second most popular boxer of all time outside of Muhammad Ali, which was Mike Tyson. Definitely the most popular boxer in my era, by far. And now, you just got sentenced to forever, as Woody aptly put it, the rest of your life, pretty much in Angola. Etienne actually, in 2004, for whatever reason, applied for a pardon to Mike Foster, the then governor, which was denied, obviously. I don't know if he thought his popularity might get him a pardon, but it wasn't working with Mike Foster.

Woody: I think he was also trying to say stuff about traumatic brain injury and CTE and all that other bullshit.

Jim: Right. Look, here's why I don't buy that at all. I definitely think that brain injury from boxing or pro football, absolutely, it affects your decision making and all those sorts of things. But you were doing this at 18. I mean, you were robbing people at 18.

Woody: This lawyer said he's entitled to a new sentence because the CTE should be a major consideration. He said, "It's not his fault. The science wasn't there ahead of time. So, he did not do all this bullshit." I'm not even going touch on that anymore.

Jim: Yeah, that's ridiculous. Now, one thing we haven't mentioned to you is a unique-- and when I tell y'all this is a unique and an absolutely God-given talent is his ability in the painting world. Art, paintings, canvas.

Woody: I told you about the drawing. I didn't know that he was a painter also, but he drew that picture of that girl for me.

Jim: Yeah. If you're a Patreon member of any sort, we're going to put this on Patreon. It's just some examples of his artwork. It is unbelievable, y'all. God definitely touched him and gave him a talent with artwork. So, we're going to put that up there. Look, Woody mentioned this earlier, and I want to read this to y'all. Woody had mentioned, "Hey, he was a nice guy."

Woody: Yeah. He was cool.

Jim: Great personality. Cool dude. I'm going to read you a letter that he wrote to a fan. This is in 2019, so this is fairly recent. I'm also going to put this up on Patreon. But a fan had just wrote to him and asked him for an autograph, basically, a boxing fan. He said, "Sorry I took so long getting back to you. Just rediscovered the letter you sent me at the end of May. I always take time writing anyone back since they took time to write me. All letters are screened for contraband, and because of some drug heads attempts to smuggle contraband in here, the mailroom discarded the index card you sent me to sign. So, I'm sending you this large piece of paper signed by me. To answer your questions, I am still healthy, and I look forward to a better future. I WILL GET OUT OF HERE." And he says that in all caps.

"I paint and I cut hair almost every day. Number three, I'm not in a cell. I'm in a dormitory with a bit over 100 guys. I do watch TV sometimes, mostly news and sports. I have a TV in the barber shop where I work. Number four, my whole boxing career was an interesting story. Started writing a book about it, but I haven't finished. Number five, fighting Mike Tyson was like fighting the other 30 fighters I fought. It was a job that took care of my family. I never got into all the hype. I met Tyson years before they even talked about us fighting each other. Number six, the most fun I had in boxing ring was every time the referee raised my hand as the winner after all that hard training. You take care of yourself, and I wish you and yours all the best. Clifford Etienne."

Woody: Pretty cool.

Jim: Reading that letter, that don't sound like a guy they tried to kill two police officers, rob a check cashing place. So, when Woody mentioned that, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool, nice guy," reading that letter that sounds like a guy that is out of prison right now, is living his best life, just doesn't sound like that type of character, does it?

Woody: But that cocaine shit, does funny shit, even less [crosstalk] to people and will never take away the fact.

Jim: Nose gold.

Woody: Not only did he try to kill those two officers, but who knows what would have happened to those kids in the car, etc., had he not wrecked it, and stalled it out. But when he went back in the prison this time, y'all, it wasn't without incident. He had issues, he survived an attack. He would start painting, but we'll talk about that. He would start painting. The last I had heard of him before we talked about this, was I was watching something on the Rodeo about Angola Radio and they had him selling his paintings and they were street scenes and murals. Now, you're not allowed to make money off your crimes. He's not painting trying to kill two cops, but he's painting like murals-- Not murals, but like oil paints. Shit would cost you $20,000 in a gallery, and it was fantastic. The one I saw was of a second line that's a funeral procession for those from Louisiana where they play the music, the jazz band does it and they go behind the coffin and all that. But he was very, very good at it. And his paintings are hanging all across the world, people commissioned to do paintings, etc. But even when he was in the painting room one time, somebody tried to kill him.

Jim: Yeah. So bad in fact that he had to get transferred.

Woody: Right.

Jim: I do want to mention on those paintings, a lot of people may be surprised to know that

one of his paintings hangs in the New Orleans Police Department. Woody: Oh, I didn’t know this.

Jim: Sure enough, yeah, I found that somewhere. [laughs] Woody: Only Jim Chapman can get that shit up.

Jim: I found that somewhere. There's a picture online where the two New Orleans PD officers are posing in the police department and his painting is hanging. I guess to them, it's an example of convicts have talent too somewhere. God touches us all, gives us all unique talents, and that was his. And it's just a shame. In addition to his boxing, which was also a unique talent.

Woody: I'm going to digress for a second when I said he attacked a correctional officer with fists, I believe now, I'm thinking back on-- I think it was just another inmate. But instead of being charged with a regular fist fight, which wouldn't send you to working cell block, they charged him for fighting with weapons because his hands were considered deadly weapons because he's such a renowned boxer.

Jim: I believe it.

Woody: Y'all, he would go on-- after that attack, he talks about surviving COVID when they put them all in cells. When everybody else in the world is trying to be separated, they were locking them down. He talks about that, but at some point after the attack, another inmate, a friend of his, told him, say, "Hey, man, basically you got to get shit together." I mean, he'd let himself go, he'd gained weight, he was dressing sloppily. And Etienne listened to him. So, he started dressing better. He shaved his head bald. He started to exercise every day at 5:00 in the morning. He said he stayed away from rats or dudes, they would never amount to shit in their lives. That friend asked him, "What do you need to start painting again?" Etienne told him. Two weeks later, the supplies arrived like magic, canvas boards, paints and brushes. The friend told Etienne, "You're the Black Rhino. The man who went from prison to pinnacle boxing." Eventually, Etienne returned to the painting room, hearing or no hearing, he had to move forward. Now, talk about his hearing, y'all, I told you his eardrum got busted.

Jim: By Mike Tyson.

Woody: By Mike Tyson, and his equilibrium was still off and all that. But he to this day paints. Jim and I have had several offers to attend the Angola Radio, and I said that's the last fucking place you'll ever catch me on the face of this earth because of all the people I've put up there. But if I ever do go, I'm going to go see the Black Rhino.

Jim: There you go.

Woody: And I guarantee he remembers--[crosstalk]

Jim: We need to do that trip soon, and that would make for a great episode. Incidentally, we do want to welcome Woody back. Last week, of course, I flew solo for you Patreon members.

Woody: I appreciate you doing that.

Jim: So, we did a bonus episode. It's only up on Patreon, so if you're curious to hear about it was called Iron Mike.

Woody: Iron Mike.

Jim: It's about a guy that could fight in prison for sure, but it's just an absolutely crazy story of a guy who killed three inmates inside of Angola and just some amazing stuff there. But Woody was on a special assignment, which in the future we'll be able to tell everybody about. And I also recorded another episode that I'll be dropping as a bonus episode. It's Boss Bitches Part 2. But I'm glad to have Woody back now because I have to freaking think all by myself, brother. [laughs]

Woody: I appreciate it but tell them about Boss Bitches 2.

Jim: Yes, Boss Bitches 2. Of course, if you listen to the first one, we feature Martha Stewart, M. Diddy, and a bunch of other lady convicts. And this one, much of the same. It's four other lady convicts. Look, join Patreon and you'll find out who they are. How about that?

Woody: Y'all, you go and check it out. We have numerous bonus episodes. Jim, I appreciate you covering me while I'm gone.

Jim: No worries, man.

Woody: The bonus episodes are fire, and as are all Bloody Angola. But the Patreon, we

have different tier levels now each, go look it up. It'll be in the show notes.

Jim: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned it, because I want to shout out-- We've got over 130 members now. We're blessed to have that. They support us. We couldn't do this without them. So, we're going to read out real quick each of our Tie Down and Warden Team members, give them of a shoutout. Just to tell you really fast are what our teams include. The Warden Team is our top tier. You get ad-free episodes, obviously, early access to these episodes. You get full transcripts of all the Bloody Angola Thursday regular drops. Any shows that we do that are live, you get automatic VIP access. And you get a free piece of Bloody Angola of merch every quarter. So, four times a year, we're sending you something. I know I've sent out a bunch of merch lately to a bunch of people that are our Warden Team members, I appreciate y'all so much. If you're a Warden Team member, you haven't got that first piece of merch, please just message me and we'll get it to you.

Woody: If you're a Patreon member on any level-- because it's a lot y'all, but it's very important to us. If we miss something, we're human beings. Please, please message us, check into it.

Jim: Yes, that's our Warden Team. We also have our Tie Down Team, which they get ad-free episodes, early access, full transcripts of those Thursday drops, and they also get our Sally Port companion episodes like the Boss Bitches that we're going to drop as a bonus for them. Woody is going to read our Tie Down Teams, and I'm going to read our Warden Teams today.

Woody: And the Tie Down Team gets you--

Jim: That gets you the ad-free episodes, the early access, the full transcripts, and the Sally Port companion episodes.

Woody: Carol Hagen, you are a love. We appreciate you for being a Tie Down Team member. I hope you're enjoying your benefits. We appreciate you so much. All right, Kirsten Dahl. Now, Kirsten has been a Lifer forever, and she used to send me pickles and all kinds of stuff, Jim.

Jim: There you go.

Woody: But thank you, Kirsten, for supporting Bloody Angola also. We really, really love and appreciate you. You're awesome. Lisa Stevens, I know who you are. Thank you for being a Tie Down Team member. We love and appreciate you so much. And Tina Johnson. Tina, thank you for being a Tie Down team member. You rock. You kick ass. And we appreciate you. We couldn't do without you. Ms. Julie Easterday. Julie, thank you so much for being a Tie Down Team member. Enjoy those benefits, sweetie.

Jim: All right. We also want to thank our Warden Team members. Our Warden Team is our top tier. You just can't get any more than what we give those Warden Team members. They are high support. Look, if you can't even be a Patreon member, we still love you and appreciate you.

Woody: Absolutely.

Jim: But we really, really appreciate the support of all our Patreon team, especially our

Warden Team members.

Woody: Especially in these hard times when eggs are $9 a dozen and you take the time to subscribe, we're going to hook you up.

Jim: That's right. So, Melissa Jewel, thank you so much for being a Warden Team member. Ms. Christine Spence.

Woody: Thank you, Christine.

Jim: Thank you so very much for being a Warden Team member. And how about Ms. Amber

Morrow?

Woody: Ms. Amber. Thank you. We love you. We appreciate you.

Jim: 100%. Ms. Lisa Marks.

Woody: Ms. Lisa Marks, we don't even have a term for you. You know we love you.

Jim: Double Warden Team member. [laughs] She's just amazing. Thank you so much. Love you. Mandy Oliver.

Woody: Mandy Oliver.

Jim: Ms. Mandy.

Woody: Thank you so much. She's awesome.

Jim: Leah [unintelligible [00:53:53].

Woody: A part-time researcher, full-time crime junkie. Jim: And hellraiser. [laughs]

Woody: You don’t want to mess with Leah. Leah, thank you so much.

Jim: That's right. That's our Warden Team and we really appreciate the support of all of those members. We're going to be shouting out as many as we can every week here going forward. Thank you so much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: Your host of Bloody-

Woody: Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.

[chuckles]

Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe Derouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton.

[Bloody Angola theme]

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, we deep dive into the realm of serial killers, exploring their twisted minds and chilling actions. From defining a serial killer to examining the rise in serial killings, we analyze the stats and classifications, both in the US and globally. Uncovering demographics like average age for a first kill, youngest and oldest serial killers, and racial composition, we also discuss the link between childhood abuse and becoming a serial killer.

We explore different types of serial killers - psychotic, missionaries, power seekers - with examples like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, and delve into subcategories like lust and gang killers. Drawing distinctions between organized and disorganized serial killers, we shed light on their characteristics and behaviors. Listen as we dive into the dark world and motivations behind these heinous crimes on Bloody Angola.

Timestamps

05:43 Rise of Serial Killers

06:39 Global Serial Killer Stats

08:55 Age and Gender of Serial Killers

09:32 Racial Breakdown

10:13 Issues with Profiling

11:52 IQ and Methods of Killing

12:54 IQs of Well-Known Serial Killers

14:34 Child Abuse Statistics

15:22 Birth Order of Serial Killers

15:53 Profiling Types of Serial Killers

19:08 Types of Missionary Killers

20:43 Lust Killers and Profiling

21:42 Black Widows and Cost Cutters

23:46 Power Seekers

24:20 Not-So-Well-Known Serial Killers

25:12 Henry Landau's Twisted Actions

25:33 Revenge Killers

26:13 Organized vs. Disorganized Killers

29:14 Profiling Serial Killers

#SerialKillers #tedbundy #johnwaynegacy #profiling #fbi #bloodyangolapodcast #crime #podcast #killers #dateline 

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In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, they bring you into the case of the murder of Audra Bland. In 2007 William Lee Jr. was convicted of her murder and sentenced to life in prison at Louisiana State Penitentiary. A new law passed in 2021 made way for a reduction in his sentence, but that was just the start of a winding roller coaster ride that eventually led to the Louisiana State Supreme Court and a landmark decision pushed by Governor Elect and Attorney General Jeff Landry.

(part 1 of a 3 part series)

#bloodyangolapodcast #Thelakehousemurder #williamleejr #Podcast #Louisianastatepenitentiary #jefflandry #louisianaact104

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First it was the Red Hat, brutal.....Then upon the closure of the Red Hat Cell Block came its replacement, even more brutal was the notorious Camp J.

Closed in 2018 forever, Camp J was feared by even the convicts of Death Row and the most infamous solitary cell block in America.

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman of Bloody Angola Podcast share the story of Camp J and the details that made it so bad.

#CampJ #WilbertRideau #PrisonPodcast #BloodyAngola #LouisianaStatePrison #SolitaryConfinement

FULL TRANSCRIPT

BLOODY ANGOLA: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman (Camp J)

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. 

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. 

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. 

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: And we're going to talk about Camp J today, Woody.

Woody: Yeah, y'all. Camp J was always controversial, and certainly we can't cover all of Camp J in one episode, but we're not going to make a series out of this. We're just going to bring you some as we go along. Everything from Jim's phenomenal research on stuff and some of the stuff we're going to play today to, in the future, having former inmates that were in Camp J and all that. But let me tell you real quick about Camp J. If you go back on the history part, you remember when they closed the Red Hat cell block, they had to come up with a new area to house the worst of the worst, and that was Camp J.

Jim: If you're sitting there and you're wondering, "What is the Red Hat cell block?", well, we covered that, and I believe it was Season 2's opener of Bloody Angola. One thing I'll make sure I do is link that in the description, because this may be your first episode with Bloody Angola. 

Woody: The Red Hat Cell Block, y'all, was notorious and they ended up shutting it down. How bad does a fucking place have to be if you're going to shut it down, when it's housing people that nobody cares about? But to get locked up in these places like the Red Hat before they shut it down and the new and improved Camp J when they opened it up, you have to be a real, real problem. Now, it doesn't matter what your crime is that you commit on the street, when you get to Angola, you get classified and most convicts do their time in dormitories. But you get locked down on Camp J was an extended lockdown-

Jim: CCR, Closed Cell Restricted.

Woody: -cell block. To get locked up there, you didn't just get in a fistfight with another inmate. That's a regular working cell block or admin seg thing. You had to either attack a guard with weapons, not just a fistfight. Weapons could be feces or urine also. Or get caught smuggling drugs and/or escape or try to escape. 

Jim: Rape. 

Woody: Rape. Yeah, you could call it raping somebody. You had to do something so bad that they wanted to lock you away from the rest of the prison population.

Jim: Think about it as a prison inside a prison. One of the questions you may have had was, "Well, you're already in prison. What else can they do to you?" Well, they have to have a place they can send you that is even worse than the situation you're already in. You're already in jail. You're already being told when to shit, when to eat, all those sorts of things. So, what can they do to you outside of that in CCR units or lockdowns or whatever you want to call it? Camp J was the place that you went to when you broke the rules in prison.

Woody: The worst rules. They like killed somebody or whatever. 

Jim: Shanked. Jugged them up.

Woody: Killed them good.

Jim: Killed them good. [chuckles] 

Woody: When you get sent to Camp J, you have to do 90 days before you come up for a review to be released back in general population. Now, that's 90 days without a low court or a high court writeup. And that means no rule infractions. If you're back there on your first day, and most of them do, and you fuck up, you do something wrong, guess what happens? You know you got to finish your other 89 days, or you're going to automatically get rejected. These guys aren't model convicts by any means, and they get the other 89 days to fuck up, and you can't do them anymore. So, when your review comes up again, you automatically get them denied, and then you get a clean slate for the next 90 days. But they got convicts in Camp J that are housed there forever.

Jim: Forever. 

Woody: I mean, like so many years. I guess we should tell them a little bit about it. 

Jim: One thing I want to go into before we do that, just paint the picture.

Woody: Oh, yeah. Paint the picture of the cells and everything else. 

Jim: Think of it like this, y'all. If you were like me and you were raised and your parents would do this to you, maybe you'd say a cuss word, you see how that helps us [crosstalk] saying-- Cusswords every now and then. So, maybe--

Woody: [crosstalk] -get the soap. 

Jim: Yeah, get the soap. That's one version. But a lot of parents would say, "Go in the corner, put your nose in the corner, and stand there till I tell you to come out."

Woody: My dad would just beat my ass-

[laughter]

Woody: -with a leather belt from Mexico which said "Mexico" and had dove imprints on there, it used to leave them on me. But I promise you, I deserved every one of them.

Jim: Every one of them. [laughs] But you put your nose in the corner and you'd have to sit there till your parents-- and 10 minutes seem like 10 hours. That's your parents' version of Camp J. That's their way of putting you solitary, by yourself, where all you have to do is focus on your nose in the corner. Well, that's what Camp J is, but obviously on a much higher level.

Woody: They're locked up 23 out of 24 hours a day. Most of the time, I would submit to you, they're locked up longer. They didn't get that hour out. Back in the day, they only gave them like one phone call a month. But if you got your hour out, it was for a shower and just sweep out your cell real quick because they weren't letting trustees in your cell. These are bad motherfuckers. And you get out. Now, I remember being a boy and going to Angola on a school tour, and they took us to Camp J. Outside the front of the camp, they had the exercise yards. Now it's not open yards, these were fenced in, wired-in yards, probably--

Jim: Dog pens, basically. 

Woody: -were basically, yeah. I was going to say like 15 yards around. I remember going up and there was this convict, and he was shackled, but he only had one arm. He was shackled with his one arm and shackled to his feet and he's running that circle. But guess what? They called him Wingding. We've got an episode of Wingding. Wingding was trying to escape and they shot him at the gate and blew his arm off and they killed the other guy during the escape. We'll tell that story--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Yes.

Woody: But Wingding was running around in circles and it's a bunch of impressionable kids and he's like, "Fuck you, you motherfuckers. Y'all coming in here and stare at us like fishing a bowl? You fucking motherfuckers, I'll kill all of you." What're they going to do to him? 

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: He's already--[crosstalk] 

Jim: He's already in Camp J.

Woody: [crosstalk] -like 15 fucking years. He ain't getting out. He was going to speak his mind. But when Camp J opened, it was a brand-new facility and top notch. But guess what? They didn't put a lot of money in Camp J. It would become known as the worst cell blocks in the United States of America, and probably in the world.

Jim: You've heard of us talk about this before, but budgets are always an issue with prisons no matter where you are in the country. Angola is no exception to that because obviously, us as free people, the last thing you want to do is have to pay for prisoners. Now, it's a necessary evil. It's just like insurance. You've got to have it just because if we didn't pay for these prisons, you'd have everybody roaming free, and that would obviously be a problem. But Camp J, when it opened, it was brand new. Well, as budgetary things came through every year, they would cut the budget for Angola. So, what do they start looking at? "Well, we got to cut staff. We've got to cut we don't need to fix that air conditioner that broke," although Camp J didn't even have that. Whatever it may be, they cut where they had to, and Camp J got cut a lot more [crosstalk] parts.

Woody: Camp J got [crosstalk] cut more than anything else.  

Jim: Sure.

Woody: Because nobody gave a shit.

Jim: Nobody gave-- yeah. It's CCR, right? 

Woody: Now, think about it, y'all. If you had 6000 inmates or 5800, however many it was, you've got that certain percentage. Now, it's all rapists and murderers and armed robbers and just the worst of the worst, but most of them are doing their time, not letting their time do them but you have a real, real big factor on Camp J. I mean, that certain percentage of that population that's in Angola, they're in there for not obeying the laws, for murder and rape and everything else but a certain percentage, when they get there, they're going to continue to act out. It's the only thing they know. I'm going to tell you right now, a huge percentage of them have severe mental issues. I'm telling you like cray, cray motherfuckers. But you know what? The state, especially back in the day, they only have one doctor come in from Baton Rouge, whatever, these guys didn't get the treatment, especially the mental stuff that they needed. 

So, the cells are so small, y'all. It's a single-man cell. It has a shitter, a little metal iron desk, and basically about it. I think it's like five steps down, five steps back. You probably can reach your arms out and touch both walls.

Jim: It's a closet.

Woody: You don't have any direct visual contact with anyone else. It's just the place that you didn't want to go. Now, again, it's used to take these worst of the worst, the ones that act so bad inside for the most serious charges, and they get them out of general population so they can't continue to rape, murder, or attack staff or whatever it is that they were doing in that general population to get swung.

Jim: Explain to them what "getting swung" is.

Woody: Getting swung, y'all, means that when you're in the general population and you're living in all these dormitories or whatever your job may be, if you do a rule infraction, you get-- that's the term, we call it get swung. They swung your ass to the cell block. 

Jim: I remember when you were talking to Kelly Jennings and you used to say, "Did you swing your clerk?" And I'm like, "What? What is that term?" [chuckles]  

Woody: Getting swung is something you didn't want to have happen, but it happens. Even like Kelly's clerk, I didn't have a clerk, but trustees that would have, if invariably they're going to try to get over on you or do whatever, and you swung their ass and they lost the privileges. They may go to admin seg before the hearing or whatever. If you're a real shit heel, like you attacked an officer or you raped someone or whatever, then they swung you to Camp J at Angola and you didn't want to go there.

Jim: Yeah, you didn't want to go there. Just the fact that it's Camp J guaranteed when you step foot on Louisiana State Penitentiary to Angola, and you know typically it's a life sentence. So, you step foot, word travels fast. I'm sure you're walking down that walk and they're catcalling you, the other prisoners. "Hey, hey--" 

Woody: You remember what the one guy on the documentary said? The white guy who was coming out? I'm not being racist. I'll submit to you that if you're Arnold Schwarzenegger and you're white in prison, you got a problem. They're still going to get you. Because on a cell block, I would have if there's 100 inmates, 98 of them would be African American and you got your two white boys. That guy said they interviewed him on that documentary, and he said, "Y'all, I'll tell you what you don't want to do. Everybody knows your fish when you get there, and you're coming down the side for a walk, try to carrying all your shit, and they're like, 'Oh, let me help you carry your stuff.' Don't do that, because they come to your bunk at 9 o'clock at night and take your ass." 

Jim: Yeah. "Remember, I helped you carry your shit?"

Woody: "Hey, man, I helped you carry that [crosstalk] bend over, boy." 

Jim: That's it. That's life. That's real life there. Kiana Calloway, who appeared on P2P Podcast.

Woody: Which is?

Jim: Which is Penitentiaries to Penthouses.

Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] check it out.

Jim: They're friends of our show, and he went on there and was discussing his firsthand look at Camp J but before we play you that clip, I want to read you something that he wrote. It was a blog online, and it says, "I was just 17 years old when I was sent to solitary confinement in Camp J, one of the most severe lockdown units at one of America's most brutal prisons, the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola. I languished in solitary for 16 months. Back then, I didn't know that Louisiana was solitary confinement capital of the world. All I knew was that I had been convicted of a crime I didn't commit, and I had to maintain my humanity in one of the most dehumanizing places on Earth. It's called 23 and 1, because you spend 23 hours alone in yourself and 1 hour to take a shower and make a phone call if you're allowed." 

"There's no education programs, you're stuck in yourself with just the voices in your own head and the cries of men who have already gone mad. Most of the other people in my unit were suffering from mental illness. I remember how they would ram their heads into bars, play with their own defecation, or throw urine or feces."

Woody: Getting gassed.

Jim: Yeah, getting gassed. "The hardest part of living in solitary is trying not to lose hope." Remember that word, hope. We say it all the time. "Each morning that I woke up in solitary, I would quote the same Serenity prayer. Remember my father reciting when I was young. 'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.' The consequences are devastating. It's been 22 years since my time in solitary and 8 years since my release from prison. But I still have flashbacks and nightmares. Even when I'm with someone else, I can find myself secluded in my own mind. I call it being psychologically incarcerated. I'm learning to identify and deal with it, but I am still not normal."

That's what Camp J was doing to people. Before we go any further, I want y'all to listen to this clip. This was directly taken from the P2P Podcast show. You're going to hear a story that absolutely blew my mind that Kiana told on that podcast. So, it's right here. 

Kiana: I spent 18 months in one of the most dehumanizing places that ever could have been created for a human being, and that was Camp J.

Interviewer: Okay. Angola, Louisiana.

Kiana: Angola, Louisiana, the Farm. So, [unintelligible 00:17:28] cell 11. They got cell 10. Cell 11 was the last cell. They had a guy named Money that slept on side of me for 10 months. Every morning, he woke up singing, "It's been a long, long time coming." Money's name was Alpha Baker. When I went to Camp J, Money had all been in Camp J for like 14 years at this time. 

Interviewer: Wow. In the cell block?

Kiana: In that same cell.

Interviewer: Wow.

Kiana: In that same cell. That's why I fight for solitary confinement today. I was in Camp. J. The man had come down, shift change 6:00 and 6:00, we know it's shift change. 06:00, man come down, "Who all used the phone?" Friday. What's on Friday? 

Interviewer: Chicken.

Interviewer: Chicken.

Kiana: Exactly. "Who want to use the phone?" Everybody hands coming out the bar. "Okay, let me get the plates. How many people are not getting the chicken plate?" 

Interviewer: [laughs] 

Kiana: Listen, I didn't talk to my--

Interviewer: This is the guard? 

Kiana: This is the guard.

Interviewer: He's trying to eat. 

Kiana: He's getting chicken so he could swing it on the other side of the town. 

Interviewer: You have the biggest [crosstalk] decision. 

Kiana: They got Joes. They got Joes around the corner. So, it's a whole situation here. You only get one phone call every 30 days in Camp J this time. 

Interviewer: Really? 

Kiana: It was coming through the walls, busting through the walls.

Interviewer: Cinderblocks.

Interviewer: Who were?

Interviewer: The inmates.

Kiana: They bust through the walls.

Interviewer: They come get you? 

Kiana: Yes. 

Interviewer: Oh, wow. 

Kiana: If they want you, they bust-- they coming through the walls. I'm talking about there's so many times that they had to replaster the cinderblocks. 

Interviewer: They just go and get moles and coming through. 

Kiana: Moles?

Interviewer: How they get in through--[crosstalk] 

Kiana: You can use--[crosstalk] 

Interviewer: Oh, you're talking about the guy on the--[crosstalk] 

Kiana: In 1998, they took the cell block, they have the flap wall where you put your stuff in there, you take that up out of there, and you can go through the wall.

Interviewer: No shit.

Kiana: Yeah, you can go through the wall.

Interviewer: So, Dudes are getting jugged up?

Kiana: Going through the wall. [crosstalk] Listen to me. Going through the wall. Listen to me.

Interviewer: Getting rinked? That’s wild, man.

Kiana: Listen, man, that is a world inside of the world, man.

Jim: That was crazy to say the least, Woody. Busting through cell cinderblock to get in the other.

Woody: By the time Kiana was there, certainly Camp J was known for not being maintained. They would do patches here and there and stuff like that, but the walls were rotting, the cinderblock and everything else. If you're down 23 and 1, which I'm telling you is a lot more than that, I can assure you. And you're crazy, or you're just a bad guy and you want to rape somebody or kill somebody, you just bust the fucking hole in the wall. 

Jim: Just bust--[chuckles] 

Woody: Bust the whole wall, "I'm coming to get you." 

Jim: Yeah. They would rape, they would go in the next cell and rape people. Some of these guys have been in that same cell for years. Rules say no more than like three months or something like that. 

Woody: They come up for the review in three months, but if they can't get out, they're not trying to rush them out.

Jim: Yeah. Depends on what you did.

Woody: Actually, the correction officers are trying to protect the other convicts and correction officers from these people, from whatever they did to get back in Camp J. Now, Camp J, y'all, the mental illness factor is a real deal. I'm talking about severe mental illness. You think about this. I believe the stat is something like, you can go insane after five days in solitary confinement. They've proven that. Not everybody does. Sometimes, it takes longer and what have you. But if you go back there and you go insane, [unintelligible 00:21:19] on the fucking rule. You can be back there forever. Like this guy that was in the cell block in the cell next to him, been back there 14 years and woke up singing every morning.

Jim: Every morning.

Woody: But also, right before Camp J closed, they were averaging one suicide a day. You're talking about 365 people a year killing themselves because they can't live in Camp J.

Jim: Yeah. That's absolutely insane. Now, one question you may have is what is it like from a correctional officer's perspective? Because if it's bad for the convicts, the correctional officers, just another day at work? You better believe it ain't. 

Woody: Let me tell you this. I ran the largest rec room when I first started out at Dixon Correctional Institute and Burl Cain was my warden. I had a convict, I told him, gave him direct verbal order, which is a real deal to catch his dorm, because he was standing back and saying and he was like, "Fuck you." He walked out into the yard knowing that I couldn't go. I told the captain about it, and he said, "The next time that happens, you use whatever force you got to bring the situation under control." It was a Sunday night, convict is standing on the back wall. I cleared the rec room, and he wouldn't fucking leave the wall. I told him, I said, "Catch your dorm." He said, "Fuck you, white boy." I said, "Okay." I hit my pager and I jumped on right as he's starting the end of the dorm, and we went fisticuffs. One of the only fireable offences for civil service is not helping another correction officer when they're in a fight. My captain said he hit the door of the rec room and didn't see me. All the people with radios are coming. Then, he knew sugar turned to shit, it was a bad show. Came down there and he pulled me off. I'm in this big fight in front of hundreds of inmates. The correctional officer on the desk is like, "Fuck that. Ain't getting involved."

Why am I telling you this? They sent me home that night, I thought I was getting fired. Burl Cain brought me in his office the next day and he said, "Son, I'm going to send you somewhere where you can fight every night." The work in the cell block, which was the worst one at DCI and the two admin seg tiers. The rule was if you don't want to work back there anymore, you say, "I can't handle it because it's bad shit." It's like a mini Camp J, but not nearly as bad. 

Jim: True.

Woody: But you're fighting every night and you get gassed.

Jim: Oh, my God.

Woody: Gassed, y'all mean, you walk down the tier and they have screens, not cell bars. They have screens. They'll will save up their shit and their piss and throw it on you. And then, they know you they're going to catch that ass whipping. Even if they act bad in that cell there, you've got to extract them and take them out and put them in Admin Seg until they hear them, whether they're going to fight, they flood, toilet flooded. Then, they'll cover themselves with shit and piss. So, you got to put your hands on and stuff like that.

Now Camp J, holy shit, if these people are killing themselves, yeah, I worked many suicides on the cell blocks, but none of them are easy. In Camp J, they're hanging themselves, or however they're doing, slitting their wrist once a day, the correctional officers, fuck, you have to be a special breed to work back there.

Jim: Yeah, you really did. Just to give y'all-- paint a little picture of the size of Camp J and things like that, it was four tiers.

Woody: Tiers being long rows of cells, y'all.

Jim: They were 13 cells on each side of these four tiers. At its peak, Camp J had as many as 400 prisoners. Now, you may do the math and say, "Well, wait a minute, that doesn't add up if you have one person in a cell." Well, there was a time they were stacking two in there, and it's because they had so many people acting out at Angola, and they had to send them somewhere. And Camp J was the answer. And so, hey, guess what? You just got a roommate in your five-foot-wide cell.

Woody: And you pray your roommate isn't mad. Not mad, like angry mad, but like crazy mad. Batshit. Y'all, Camp J, the names of the cell blocks are like Alligator, Barracuda, Gar, and Shark. Whereas, like Camp D is Falcon and Wet Bird [crosstalk] and stuff like that.

Jim: Yeah, they had units.

Woody: The main prison compound, the dormitories are named after trees, but Camp J was the worst of the worst. You told me this earlier, and I believe this wholeheartedly. Okay, I guarantee you to call in, and it's civil service, so you got so many days calling in sick and all that. They call in on Camp J, they're like, "Fuck, I ain't going in today." But guess what? Somebody else had to cover that shift, and they're correctional officers, they say, "Hey, you got to go to Camp J," they're like, "Fuck that, I quit." Y'all, what I am telling you about the correction officers, some of them just would rather quit than go work at Camp J. I'm going to read you from an article, so just bear with me. It's called Challenges at Camp J.

Camp J became infamous among officers and offenders alike, a spot where conditions were harsh and where severe mental health issues became commonplace. In a letter, Warden Darrel Vannoy wrote to LeBlanc- y'all, that would be Secretary LeBlanc, who's over the Department of Corrections, -in July of 2017, advocating for its closure. Vannoy explained that within one year, 85 correctional officers assigned to Camp J have resigned, retired, or terminated. The challenges staff encounter at Camp J are more complex than other areas of the institution," Vannoy writing the letter, "attained by the advocate in a public records request." "Numerous times upon an officer's knowledge that they will be signed to Camp J or loan to Camp J for work detail, they will leave work sick, walk off the job, or report to human resources to resign. Completed in 1976, Camp J has four cell blocks, each with eight tiers made up of 13 single-man cells. It was used to discipline offenders following grave infractions of prisons rules, such as fighting with a weapon or for behavioral issues, officials have said, with the opportunity for offenders to earn the way out after meeting certain conditions." 

Vannoy wrote, "That the locks for the cells in Camp J had recently begun malfunctioning, sometimes opening on their own, and offenders had figured out ways to jam the cell doors. Often with toothpaste caps or buttons, circumventing security checks by making unlocked cells appear closed. Weapons use had been on the rise along with security breaches," Vannoy wrote, "with 44 weapons found at Camp J in the first seven months of July 2017."

Secretary Department of Corrections LeBlanc said he felt especially glad they closed the facility knowing of its compromised security after hearing about the inmate fight that killed seven in a South Carolina prison. "I think we made the right decision. It was a public safety issue. A staff safety issue and an offender safety issue," LeBlanc said. Advocates say Camp J rates of suicides and attempts have become a major issue in the desolate cells. Two suicides occurred on the same day in April of 2016 at Camp J. LeBlanc acknowledged there had been some suicides at Camp J, but said they unfortunately happened everywhere in the prison complex and were not the driving force Camp J's closure.

I may have got my shit wrong, but I heard from somewhere, probably somebody who worked there, that they were averaging one a day at some point. 

Jim: Oh, I'm sure they were. 

Woody: That shit never gets advertised, ever. Unless as I did in Baton Rouge, I did a story on that people at random the first day at Angola, he hung himself. 

Jim: Yeah. One of the key things that was said in that article just now was 44 weapons. Me and Woody [crosstalk] in a couple of months.

Woody: But they're in their cells. It's not like they're out in the yard and hanging and going to work in the kitchen. Shit, they get they got 44 weapons in a couple of months.

Jim: Woody and I say it all the time, that prisoners, they have a lot of ingenuity.

Woody: Absolutely.

Jim: All they have 24 hours a day is to think about, "How the heck can we get weapons? How can we do this?" And they get them in there. You go out to a yard anywhere in Angola and you're going to find shanks buried in the ground. That's where they put them.

Woody: In cells, anywhere else. I mean, it could be anything from a melted state-issued toothbrush. It didn't take a lot to make a weapon, y'all. at Camp J, at its peak, housed more than 400 prisoners being disciplined in solitary cells for more than 23 hours a day.

Jim: Yeah. Imagine that you get out, and that's if you got out, I submit to you that Kiana said that a lot of times they wouldn't let you out.

Woody: Yeah, they never get out.

Jim: "Oh, we forgot you need to see the sunshine, you need your vitamin D." We're not saying some of those people that well deserved being in solitary, maybe they killed somebody in there or whatever, but very harsh, harsh environment. Now, interesting little sidebar fact for you. So, Harry Connick, Jr., who is a-- man, you get to New Orleans, you know now who Harry Connick Jr. is. 

Woody: His daddy was a district attorney forever--[crosstalk]  

Jim: And he's an amazing actor and singer. 

Woody: And singer, right.

Jim: And Harry Connick, Jr., was studying for a movie, and I guess he was going to be a prisoner or something in that movie. He contacted Angola and he said, "Look, I want to stay like three nights in Camp J, and I want to really give him this role and know what it's like to be in solitary confinement." Angola was like, "Okay." They let him go, and he goes into Camp J. Y'all, he didn't make it one night.

Woody: Not one night. 

Jim: Harry Connick, Jr., said, "Let me the hell out of here. I think I got it." [laughs] 

Woody: "I got a taste of what that's about."

Jim: Yeah. I mean, not one night in Angola's Camp J. So, that tells you about it. Angola's Camp J was looked at as a punishment camp, as we explained earlier. It is where you go when you break law in prison.

Woody: Serious laws.

Jim: Serious laws. You're not permitted to have even the basic of things. You don't get toiletries. They give you toilet paper while you're in there, but you can't go buy at a--

Woody: You're not getting any canteen--

Jim: Yeah, at the canteen--

Woody: You don't have any of those privileges. And canteen is a privilege. 

Jim: That's right. The food. Let's talk about the food for a second. You got a loaf when you went into Camp J. Y'all might be saying, "What the hell is a loaf?" Loaf is basically where they make everything for the general population that night. They might have peas, and they might have of sloppy joe, and they got a five-course meal. A loaf is at the end of the night when they take all of that and they dump it in the same trough, and they mix it up like you would your dog. They mix it all up. They make a loaf, almost like a meatloaf out of it and they just give it to you. 

Woody: Give it to you. The deal is, the rules are you have to feed them. They have dietitians who work in the prison, y'all. Each convict has to have a correct amount of caloric intake and a balanced meal or whatever. But I submit to you, I don't want my shit blended up. Let's say it was mashed potatoes, hamburger steak, carrots, and a piece of cornbread and a piece of pineapple turnover pie. You just mix it all up and they serve it to you in one loaf. 

Jim: In addition to that, another harsh living condition there was, they had no AC or heat or anything like that. 

Woody: [crosstalk] -screens on the windows.

Jim: I mean, here in South Louisiana, it is 100 degrees in the sunshine. In a cell with no ventilation, you're talking about it being probably 130 in there during the day.

Woody: Stunk.

Jim: Stunk to high heaven. They would actually-- look, this was common, you'd strip naked and you would lay on the concrete because that was the coolest part of the cell, and that's how you would sleep.

Woody: Right. Imagine that. But here's a problem. For many, many, many years, they didn't even have insect screens on the windows. Now, you are surrounded on the Mississippi River by three sides and swamp and all these big open agriculture fields. The mosquitoes, I mean, I know how they are in South Louisiana anyway, but mosquitoes in Angola like sabertooth--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Oh, yeah, they're eating that sugarcane--[crosstalk]  

Woody: They like rattling the window--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Terminator mosquitoes. 

Woody: They come in, and look, you can't stop them. To me, that would make my ass go crazy. 

Jim: Another inmate has told a story that they had a drain that was at the end of the tier and you would wash out the cells as people would, I guess, get put back in the general population. 

Woody: Or when they gas officers and stuff, you still--[crosstalk]

Jim: Yeah, you get spray down.

Woody: You've got to get the shit and the piss out. 

Jim: Oh, so gross. 

Woody: I know when I used to run cell blocks and they got that hour out, they would clean their own cell, most of it, unless mental illness, a lot of them just didn't give a shit, but most of them don't want to be in any more stink than they have to be.

Jim: Right. As they would have these issues, they would spray down the cells and there was a drain at the end of the tier. The rats, y'all, the rats, and I'm not talking mice, I'm talking squirrels. [chuckles] 

Woody: Killer rats.

Jim: They would come through the drains. From underneath, so obviously these drains have been eaten away underneath the ground by these rats and they fit through the whole of those drains, and they actually come up from the freaking ground, come out of the drain. And this was pretty much every night. The prisoners would have to throw things at them to keep them from coming in the cell. They'd sit there and stare at the prisoners, not unlike the Red Hat cell block, and they'd be like, "Food and cotton. I see you have some clothes on maybe at that moment."

Woody: "I'm about to get me some." 

Jim: Yeah, because they're hungry too. Rat got to eat too, and you ate all the loaf. 

Woody: Imagine the ones that fell asleep and did get eaten. 

Jim: Just a horrible situation, staring at them.

Woody: As the years went on-- again we're going to tell y'all many, many stories. We should probably have our own Camp J episodes or companion episodes, but we're going to tell you many, many stories about it. It went down, opened in the early 70s and it just went to shit. They didn't care. They pretty much lost souls locked back there and I would think most of them didn't get out.

Jim: They even had, Woody, a death row inmate at one point that was placed in Camp J. And his name was Abdullah Hakim El-Mumit. He sued the prison. Let me tell you why he sued them. He sued the prison and said, "I want to be moved back to death row."

Woody: Holy shit.

Jim: Because Camp J was so bad, he's like, "Screw that, I'm on death row. I need to be in death row." [laughs]

Woody: Right. "Give me my death row privileges."

Jim: I mean, it tells you how bad this was, y'all. You're suing to get to death row? Oof.

Woody: Yeah. Well, a lot of them escaped by killing themselves and just the most unimaginable conditions. And no air-- Well, most of them don't have air conditioners, but not even fans, locked up 23 and 1. No canteen, no privileges, no church, no education or schools. All those things we talk about in the Bloody Angola Live, you've got to give prisoners hope. Ones that grab a hold of the hope, like the programs and stuff like that, it helps to control them from acting out. They're like, "Ah, I don't really want to lose these privileges." They don't have any fucking privileges in Camp. J.

Jim: No privileges. There's story after story of just these horrid things that went on. I've heard a story that there was a stairwell, and that stairwell did not have cameras like the rest of Camp J had. Prisoners, whether it was deserved or not, I don't know, but prisoners will be moved to this stairwell and just get shit beat out of them by somebody.

Woody: Where it can't be seen, yeah. 

Jim: Yeah, where it can't be seen. So, it was a really bad place. It's important to remember how CCR in general, whether it was the Red Hat or whether it was Camp J, why those got started in Angola.

Woody: Closed cell restriction, y'all. 

Jim: Yeah, Closed cell restriction. Those got started because of an escape back in 1933 that we told you about. That was in response to that because before that, Angola was just open camps. They actually have one little picture of jail cell at a city hall. They have one little jail cell in each camp. That jail cell was where the guy that basically was bad went. But after that escape, they're like, "We need to build a whole freaking facility." They built the Red Hat. Of course, the Red Hat, notorious and got closed, and made way for Camp J. 

Woody: You've got to remember again that the Department of Corrections job is not to punish inmates for their crimes on the outside. Their job is to house the inmates while they're serving their term and to protect them from other inmates or protect you, John Q. Public, from these convicts escaping. Camp J, I think they probably started with good intentions, but it ended up being a hell hole nightmare.

Jim: Y'all, Camp J was four buildings. One was actually an open dormitory, and that open dormitory was not for the prisoners of Camp J. That was for the trustees. They had trustees just for Camp J. And they would be the ones a lot of times that were cleaning feces and spraying the--

Woody: Fuck, I wouldn't do it. 

Jim: I wouldn't want to be a trustee for Camp J. Good Lord.

Woody: Yeah. I guess it's better than being in the fields swinging a hoe. Let me talk about this, Jim, real quick. I think you have a clip on it. Matter of fact, I know you do. I wanted to talk about even how other inmates think of Camp J. Now, you can say this interview was coerced, whatever, but it is by two of Angola's most famous inmates, Wilbert Rideau, who was the editor of The Angolite, and-- Wilbert is a black male. Billy Sinclair, who you heard us talk about in the Brent Miller episodes. At that time, Billy Sinclair was on death row when Brent Miller was brutally murdered. He talked about hearing the inmates being tortured and all that stuff during the Brent Miller investigation.

Years later-- it's not that many years later, when there became public scrutiny in like PBS and different news channels want to look into this, all this outcry and these horrible stories they're hearing about Camp J, now CNN, Fox News and social media and all that, what they put out for is pretty much what they put out. They have Rideau and Sinclair in freshly pressed blue LSP shirts and Billy Sinclair's hair is combed neatly and both of them are very articulate, speak very well, but they do this interview. Play it for you now, and then we'll talk about it. 

[video clip starts playing]

Male Speaker: Members of the Louisiana Coalition on Jail say they have statements from former Camp J inmates attesting to the brutality within the facility. However, two inmates we questioned, Wilbert Rideau and Billy Sinclair, who are award-winning editors of the prison news magazine, have a different perspective on the nature of the violence at Camp J. 

Wilbert Rideau: Look, prison is a very physical and criminal world. I'm not just talking about Angola, San Quentin, Attica, anywhere, that is prison. You're going to find violence, you're going to find force, and you're going to find criminality in it. I mean, that is the way of the world. That's the way it is.

Billy Sinclair: The reign of terror is definitely an overexaggeration. It's a play on words to capture media attention. The reign of terror would be the situation that you would have if you did not have Camp J. Camp J is necessary to prevent having a reign of terror.

Wilbert Rideau: The way I look at Camp J is like this. You've got all these prisoners who go into prison. When you walk through that gate, you've got a choice. You can end up living in population like everybody else. We live in population. You've got thousands of people living together. On the other hand, you can end up in a cell. Now, you've got thousands of people who've never seen Camp J. They've never been in it. Those who are in it, they had a choice. Apparently, they made the wrong choice. I'm sure they're a victim of circumstances every now and then, because you'd have that in any system. No system is 100% correct.

Billy Sinclair: What Camp J does, and places like Camp J, is it permits the penal administrators to remove that segment of prison population which wants wholesale narcotic distribution, which wants wholesale protection rackets, which wants wholesale homosexual slavery. You can take when you have a place like Camp J and you can isolate that segment of the prison population from the rest of the whole population who want to go about just like anyone else in the free community, who want to go about doing their time as peacefully and law abiding as they can.

Primary focus now is being dealt with Camp J and the alleged brutality that's being inflicted on the DMH at Camp J. We sort of seem to be confusing our priorities. The guys who got to Camp J and those people who are there, no one is focused upon why they're there. What about that 18-year-old kid that was raped, that was brutalized and was maimed both psychologically and physically by the guy in Camp J? What happened to him? He's lost in a shuffle and if the guy at Camp J because he throws a bowl of urine on a free man, gets rapped upside the head for doing it, that becomes brutality. But what about the homosexual rape that he inflicted upon some 18-year-old kid and the damage that was done to him?

That gets lost in a shuffle. We seem to be confused in our priorities. I'm not saying it because somebody raped an individual, you're probably taking with them with ball bats. 

Male Speaker: Well, who's confused? Do you think these groups- 

Billy Sinclair: The groups are.

Male Speaker: -that are filing suits?

Billy Sinclair: [unintelligible [00:47:15] group has not ever alleged or made any kind of statement or charges about the brutality of prisoners protecting [unintelligible 00:47:28]. Even now when you have the jail rapes or when you have the gangrapes or when you have the narcotic traffic, the whole bit, the reform groups are not interested in it. They're not interested in what prisoners are doing to themselves and ways of stopping it. The only thing that penal administrators can do is to try to stop it and if they have to, stop it physically because their job is to maintain control. Now, when they go too far and maintain its control, then the reform groups want to jump up and say that they're imposing a reign of terror.

[video clip concludes]

Woody: You just heard it from two guys, were they swayed maybe by the powers that be to do this? Maybe. But the deal is, the truth of the matter is I guarantee you they slept a little bit easier at night knowing that these ones are back in Camp J for the gang rape of the 18-year-old and all that, that even the convicts that were doing their time, not letting their time do them, they didn't want these fuckers around. They were security risk also to them and made hard time harder on them.

Jim: That's right. You say it all the time. People do their time and they let the time do them. There's a difference between convicts and-

Woody: Inmates.

Jim: -inmates.

Woody: And that being, y'all, an inmate's your fresh fish, the young guys that come in always getting in fights and dealing with drugs and doing the different things. Convicts, I mean, you know you're going to die in Angola. The hope one day that you can get a better trustee position and more privileges and stuff like that, those are convicts. They don't want people to break the rules. They don't want to draw attention and have any of their small privileges taken away. 

Jim: No, they don't. I think it's important to, you've heard Woody use some terms on here, like working cell block. I wanted to define some of the different terms that you may have heard and you're like, "What's that?" Extended lockdown, for example, y'all, that's a single-person cell. Camp J will be considered extended lockdown. A working cell block is basically where the inmates or the convicts leave every day, they go out into the fields, and they work. 

Woody: Usually, they have two to a cell there, but they still have to commit such a violent crime or such an outrageous crime. Same crimes that you would do to get sent to Camp J. But the working cell blocks, they would do that 90 days without a writeup, but they would send them out into the fields every day. Not for long, y'all, because by the time you fed them up for breakfast and they came and marched them out in the field, it was lunchtime. And then, they brought them back. They got out to work. And for them, that's a good deal. Camp J, you didn't have a job.

Jim: So, it was segregated but it was a working cell block. And then, you had other maximum security and that's segregated for more administrative purposes.

Woody: If you just get in a fistfight with Joe Blow and you get arrested or even while you're waiting for these court dates I'm talking about while y'all are inside the prison. When you're waiting for your court date, if you get swung, you go to admin seg first, administrative segregation. You're handcuffed, you're put in a cell until you have your trial outcome. When you have a trial outcome, they'll say, "Hmm, send them to Camp J," or, "Send them to a working cell block." Now, if you go to working cell block and you fuck up again, you rape somebody or you gas a guard or whatever, you going to Camp J. 

Jim: That's right. And then, you also have protective custody. And that would be for example, we'll use Denny Perkins. That's segregated housing for offenders determined to need special protection. 

Woody: Whether you're chomo like Denny--

Jim: You're a church leader that molested kids.

Woody: Or you're a cop that came into prison or whatever. 

Jim: Then, you have death row. Of course, that's the highest security single-person cells. So you get to death row, definitely you're not going to have two inmates in the same cell on death row. That is the highest, most secure part of prison. That's where all your folks sentenced to death are going.

Woody: [crosstalk] -capital punishment, but even the guy, I can't remember his long ass name that you said, that even he got sent to Camp J from death row. I guess he was doing whatever, gassing guards or COs or whatever, he was like, "Fuck that, send me back to death row." 

Jim: Yeah. [laughs] He didn't like Camp J too much. The last one is treatment segregation. That's where basically, for some medical reason, you're segregated. So maybe--

Woody: It can be suicide watch or anything like that.

Jim: In 2018, Camp J ceased to exist. Primarily, the letter that Woody read you a little earlier by the warden, Vannoy, that started that process. Definitely, the state looked at that, this is coming from the warden of the prison, and they said, "Wow, maybe we have a problem." And then, you've got people like Kiana who tell stories of inmates busting through walls like the Kool Aid Man, and raping other people, and that's real shit, y'all. He ain't making that up. They were busting through the walls.

Woody: Every night you go to sleep, you have to worry about somebody breaking through the wall.

Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, the place--

Woody: Or the rats. 

Jim: Or the rats. So, just from a physical standpoint of the cell block itself, they had a problem. The second issue was it was completely overhoused. It was three times the population than it should have had in there, and that was because a lot of people were acting up, and they didn't know what to do with them. Eventually, they ran out of beds, and they were just, "Hey, if you shanked a guy, we don't have anywhere to put you. You're going to have to stay here in G-pop." And that caused a problem. 

Woody: Good luck. 

Jim: Yeah, good luck. From a physical standpoint, definitely, if not a closure, it needed to be remodeled, to say the least. But even on top of that, the conditions from a humane standpoint were a problem.

Woody: I'm like, "Mm, if you gas me, fuck you," but I don't think anybody should have had to live like that. 

Jim: That's right. It did close in 2018, and you may wonder, "Well, what do you do? Where do you send these people?" Well, they didn't do away with segregation in prison, obviously. You have to have an answer to those acting out. So, they went to more of a CCR-type thing, where it's just closed cell restricted, but you still have access to things like basic toiletries and newspapers and stuff like that. Before that, if you were in Camp J, you had no communication whatsoever. They also ensure nowadays that you do get that hour a day, and you're not exercising it at the park, y'all. It's a little--[crosstalk] 

Woody: Walking around a dog cage.

Jim: Little dog cage, but I mean, it's something. Keep you from going absolutely insane.

Woody: Well, I suspect some convicts are more successful to be going insane regardless, but either way, that's our first--

Jim: Some are already insane-- [crosstalk] 

Woody: That's our first story on Camp J. The ones in the future, we're going to bring out some murder stories, some attempted escape stories. Anything you can imagine, and we'll bring it from the people who were there. But this, we want to introduce y'all to Camp J. You heard us talk about it a lot, and it is what it is. It's basically hell on earth, or what it was.

Jim: That's right. And we just did a live this weekend.

Woody: Two lives.

Jim: A weekend of lives. Just want to thank everybody who came out. We told the story of the just horrific prison murder of Captain David Knapps and the hostage taking of Sergeant Reddia Walker and Lieutenant Chaney. And it was fire--[crosstalk] 

Woody: Very, very important story. We had fans come in from Dallas, from Tennessee, from Houston, or whatever, just to see us and we were blessed to have them. I think we did the story justice, and it was a great success. Thank you again, Southeastern and Krystal Hardison.

Jim: Oh, she's awesome. One thing we are going to do is we were videoing that particular live, and we are going to put it on for some Patreon members. If you're a Tie Down tier or above, you will get access to the actual video. If you couldn't make it, we're going to upload it as soon as we get it. It may be a week or two before we get it, but as soon as we get it, we're going to upload it to Patreon. If you're Tie Down team or above, and you couldn't make live, that's okay. You still get a chance to watch it. If you're not a Patreon member, you can join and take part of it. 

Woody: We want to thank our Patreon members. You rock and help make the show go. And we're doing three [crosstalk] now. 

Jim: Tell me about it. 

Woody: We appreciate and love each and every one of y'all. Thank you so much. Continue to like and share and leave us a review if you're so inclined, and just can't thank you enough.

Jim: Look, one more thing, speaking of lives, there's Krewe Bash coming up on the Real Life Real Crime side of things. 

Woody: That's right. That's February 3rd and 4th. 3rd is a VIP event. You can go to eventbrite.com and get your tickets. Also, Saturday night, split up, y'all, if you just want to go Friday night, there's a price for that. If you want to go Friday and Saturday night, that's the VIP package. You just want to go to Saturday night, that's another ticket for that. But go get them because they're not going to be there forever. We're only a couple of weeks away and LOPA, Louisiana Oregon Procurement Agency, which Jim Chapman and Local Leaders podcast are one of the many donors that have donated to our raffle. We have $50,000 in prizes or something like that. [crosstalk] $15 for one ticket, $100 for a book of 10. Get it. We're trying to raise money like we do every year for LOPA. So, appreciate y'all go check that out. Anywhere on social media, etc. 

Jim: Yes. Beautiful organization. 

Woody: Yeah. Great people. Hey, be a hero, Louisiana Organ Procurement Agency. Be an organ donor. 

Jim: I'm Jim Chapman. 

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: Your host of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola. 

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. 

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Jim and Woody: Peace. 

Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433 with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton.

[Bloody Angola theme playing]

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*Patreon Bonus Episode Sneak Peek*

In this Patreon Jailbreak special release bonus episode of Bloody Angola, Kelly Jennings of Unspeakable: A True Crime Podcast by Kelly Jennings, joins Woody Overton and Jim Chapman as Woody and Kelly discuss 1st hand experiences of working for Burl Cain.

#Catchyourhouse #BurlCain #TrueCrime #BloodyAngola #LouisianaStatePenitentiary #Patreon #Jailbreak #LSP #AngolaPrison #ChaseTeam #PrisonEscape #Louisiana #Convict #Escapee #SRT #Swatteam

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In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, they wrap up the case of the murder of Audra Bland. In 2007 William Lee Jr. was convicted of her murder and sentenced to life in prison at Louisiana State Penitentiary. A new law passed in 2021 made way for a reduction in his sentence, but that was just the start of a winding roller coaster ride that eventually led to the Louisiana State Supreme Court and a landmark decision pushed by Governor Elect and Attorney General Jeff Landry.

Christine Tillman joins them in this Woody Overton.

(part 3 of a 3 part series)

#bloodyangolapodcast #Thelakehousemurder #williamleejr #Podcast #Louisianastatepenitentiary #jefflandry #louisianaact104

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In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, they wrap up season 4 of the podcast and give you an amazing sneak peek into season 5!

#thewrap #truecrime #bloodyangolapodcast #podcast

BLOODY ANGOLA PODCAST: THE WRAP FULL TRANSCRIPT 

Jim: Hey everyone and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- 

Woody: Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: And Woody Overton, we've been doing 18 episodes. This is the 19th episode of Season 4.

Woody: Wow. Sounds like it's time for a wrap [crosstalk] right? Jim: It must be.

Woody: That is a lot.

Jim: That is a lot. And, y'all, we have so much fun doing this. We just go and go and go, and before you know it, we've got four seasons and one. But we love it that way. And so, today we thought it was fun to not only kind of wrap up the season and discuss our thoughts on the Episodes that we did drop, but give you a sneak peek into what, Woody Overton, I think is going to be our best season ever.

Woody: It's absolutely going to be the best, because we got the best stuff coming up. Jim: Oh, yes.

Woody: And you did the best research and we got guests and everything else.

Jim: Yeah. We're raising the bar to say the least for Season 5. But let's talk about Season 4, which, y'all, our most successful season to date. We had so many different subjects that we covered and when we envisioned this podcast, that was one of the things that we envisioned was being very broad about how we covered Angola.

Woody: Right. We told you every story would be different. We've had some that were uplifting, we had some that were mentally disturbing about crime and we had just everything. We're going to talk about some, but it's all varied and all true.

Jim: Oh, yeah. And we started off Season 4 with The Rise & Fall of C-Murder.

Woody: That's right. Great one. We got a lot of response from that.

Jim: Really kicked off the season.

Woody: Really, really excellent. Loved it. I didn't really understand that he was such a legend in Louisiana.

Jim: Yeah, he really was. And what a story. A lot of what we covered surrounded the fact that his case, there was never a whole lot of, say, proof. There was a lot of circumstantial

stuff. And we covered some of the holes in that case and also covered some of the things that pointed towards C-Murder being involved. But we left it up to the listener to kind of judge for themselves what they thought.

Woody: Right. We brought to you a lot of facts on it, researched and watched documentaries and everything else. And then, you got it from our perspective, and you the story and me the detective on it. So very interesting. If y'all hadn't heard it, you need to go listen to it.

Jim: That's right. And then went straight from there into When Evil Escapes, which was the story of Casey White and Vicky White.

Woody: Yes. That's crazy. And, y'all, it ties back into Bloody Angola because that's unfortunately those relationships develop. That's a very real deal. And here you have this career lady. I mean, her whole life's been about this and then she falls under the spell of this monstrous-

Jim: Monster, yeah.

Woody: -big dude. And the story that unfolds is just so crazy and how they end up.

Jim: The ending on that one was fire. And we want to remind everyone you can go back and listen. If you hear us mention an episode that you haven't listened to yet, you can go back through and you'll find it. Just scroll down through Season 4. In Episode 3, we started our Death Sentence series which covered the death row exonerations with DNA and things like that taking place in Angola specifically.

Woody: Yeah. And those cases were phenomenal. And I know a lot of people are against the death penalty and always say, "Well--" You come home and find your kid raped and mutilated, etc. But this shows the other side of it and their valid argument that, "Hey, you know what? Sometimes they get it wrong." So, we gave you the unbiased truth on these people that got out. And what actually ultimately happened to them. Go back and listen to it because you'll find a common thread on every one of them that got released. Didn’t do so well.

Jim: That's right. And then we felt it only right to cover those that were executed, I guess you could say, for the right reasons. There was preponderance of proof and that was with our Death Chamber Part 1 and just covered those guys that walked down and sat in Gruesome Gertie.

Woody: Right. And not we only told about their crimes, we told about some of the [unintelligible 00:06:28] stuff, but then last meals, last words. And again, I think you find in most of those that some of the last words are almost the same and I don't want to ruin it for you, so go listen to it. But I've always been super fascinated by the last meals and last words.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: And some great, great two-part series, wasn't it?

Jim: Yeah. Well, yeah, two parts.

Woody: Because there's that much information and that much fire in it.

Jim: After that, we kind of got back to telling you the stories of some people that-- this guy in particular is still sitting in Angola and that is Principal to Murder, Justin Granier who committed some crimes in Gonzales, Louisiana.

Woody: That's right, yeah. Very, very interesting to say the least.

Jim: I found that as well because Justin is one that gained popularity on TikTok and some other places because he was on a show that featured Louisiana State Penitentiary and his work through several programs that they offer and does appear to be someone that is very resentful of his crime and all those sorts of things. But we're not going to ruin it for you. Go listen to it. Season 4, Episode 6, we covered The Escape From Angola in 1953. That was Ricardo Escobar who's--

Woody: That’s right.

Jim: --a little home invasion.

Woody: He did. And my grandfather actually ruled in this case. My namesake, actually, or I guess I'm his namesake and my son has the same name, but it's different time in what happened in this case. I think the first time ever any kind of verdict had come down like that in the state of Louisiana for an escapee.

Jim: Yeah, it's a good one. Check it out. Season 4, Episode 7, we finally did it. We brought you becoming the warden. Burl Cain Part 1.

Woody: Yes. [crosstalk] -legend- Jim: Wow, that was good.

Woody: -and such, an early influence on me in my professional career when I worked for him before he became the Warden of Angola. He was the warden of Dixon Correctional Institute. Y'all, this story is amazing.

Jim: It really is. And continues to this day. Woody: And we actually did several episodes.

Jim: We sure did. As a matter of fact, Season 4, Episode 8 and 9 are the second and third parts of that series.

Woody: Yeah. It covers everything from him coming up as the warden in Angola, to how he turned Angola around. Even to Hurricane Katrina coverage, and the bus station and all. Go listen to it. I get goosebumps. That dude just is amazing.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Woody: Sorry, Warden Cain, I said dude. Jim: [laughs]

Woody: That gentleman is amazing.

Jim: He really is. And if somebody's listening that knows him, we'd love to talk to him. We can do whatever, we can go up there, we can record him remotely, whatever, but I do know that he has paid some attention to our page and we'd love to sit down and talk to such a

legend. Season 4, Episode 10, we went back to the death chamber. Had a lot of people wanting us to follow up on that with more execution stories. And we brought you Death Chamber Part 2. And then Episode 11, we wrapped that series up with a Part 3. We actually covered all of them from 1980 on.

Woody: That's right. And then all the way up to Gerald Bordelon.

Jim: Yes.

Woody: Which was the last one put to death and he's right here out of the Livingston Parish.

Jim: That's right.

Woody: Very, very interesting. And you get to see the true nightmare of evil these people are.

Jim: Absolutely. And then, Season 4, Episode 12, we went ahead and did a part 2 to death sentence and talked about more exonerations that have happened due to DNA or other technicalities. It doesn't necessarily mean-- when someone's exonerated, it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do it. It just means there was-- unless it's a DNA situation, it just typically means that there was a technicality that was discovered later on that may have changed that sentence from death to life in prison.

Woody: Right. They may have commuted it or what have you, but it's very interesting on each individual case, no two are the same.

Jim: Then, we went and brought you to Season 4, Episode 13, and we started The Angolite Files.

Woody: Yeah, that was fascinating. Jim: Those are fun, man.

Woody: Where we go back, y'all, to the oldest editions that Jim found and the wording they use in. We read the actual articles and most of them are just really, really short, but it's like they didn't have any entertainment. They didn't have TV or radio station back then, the Angola's radio station. But the wordings are just crazy. And the things they talk about-- I know people, that's one of our most popular series, so y'all got to check it out.

Jim: A little plug on Real Life Real Crime here, but it's funny that Woody, okay, so he just wrapped a really, really good series that you got to go here when we were, I guess you can say marketing this, one of the things that I put out there was that this was your seat inside a courtroom during an actual death penalty trial. And Woody really brings you inside of that as he goes over these transcripts that were very important and needed to be included. But you do something unique, which is-- and I end up doing the same thing from time to time, which is your voice almost changes and you go into this role and it's great because--

Woody: Because you're in a character.

Jim: Oh, yeah. He gets into that character and he's like, "Let me ask you something." Love it, man. So, go listen to that on Real Life Real Crime for sure if you have the opportunity. In Season 4, Episode 14, we brought you the Elite Chase Team.

Woody: Ooh, what a great story.

Jim: Ah, that was a good one.

Woody: The best of the best at what they do, and not only for bloody Angola, they're so

famous, they get calls for assistance everywhere.

Jim: Absolutely.

Woody: If you going to run, that's one group of men that you don't want coming after you.

Jim: Yo, you don't.

Woody: And they've got it down to the science.

Jim: They really do. So, go listen to that. Learn all about this Chase Team that is probably one of the best, if not the best in the nation.

Woody: I'd put them up against anybody.

Jim: Season 4, Episode 15, we had so much response on Becoming The Warden that we dropped an episode called Catch Your House, and it was Woody and Unspeakable's Kelly Jennings joining him as a guest on that show. And they discussed their relationship with Burl Cain, having both worked for him.

Woody: Right. Very, very interesting. You get to hear from an old correctional officer's point of view and then a classification officer's point of view. And, of course, two totally different jobs. And KJ has awesome stories too. It's a great episode.

Jim: Yeah. And then, we just continued on, and something happened in Louisiana that was generating a lot of talk in the news. And because we have a lot of ambiguity with this show, we bring you current stuff too, if it's making these kind of headlines. And we felt like this was something important. And the response we got from people that listened after the fact let us know that it was important. And that was The Louisiana Clemency Debacle Part 1.

Woody: And that's actually a worldwide watch situation now because it's the first time it's ever been done in the history of certainly the state of Louisiana, but in the history of the United States and probably the history of the world. And then, you have both sides. Certainly, the people that wanted these things to go through and then I just don't understand it still.

Jim: You and me and million other listeners, apparently. We actually, y'all, got some very special messages from families of people who are actually facing this, and they wanted to just thank us for shedding light on that. Of course, no thanks needed. That was our honor to do and all those sorts of things. But it really hit home to both of us the importance of what we're doing as it relates to situations like that.

Woody: And we ended up telling, y'all, where they were from, what their crimes are, and it's just-- you got to listen to it.

Jim: Yeah. And then, we continued on with Season 4, Episode 17. That was part two of the Clemency Debacle. And then after that, we even dropped a bonus episode called-- just for patrons, called The First 20 that covered the first 20 of these clemency hearings, the first 20 inmates that are coming up for these hearings.

Woody: What it covered, y'all, everybody got the base list of the crimes and where they're from, etc. For the patrons, and thank you, patrons, the show wouldn't run without you, and

Apple subscribers now, we really delved into their crimes. We told exactly what happened and who was murdered and why was aggravating circumstances and the whole nine yards.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: I mean, you can't get any deeper than what we gave them.

Jim: That's right. And so, that episode just was absolute fire. And then, Season 4, Episode 18, we went back to The Angolite, and we did 1954 Through The Inmates Eyes and covered several Angolites in and around the year 1954. And one thing that's really great about those Angolites is it really does give you the view from that convict's standpoint. [crosstalk]

Woody: Right. Again, the language they use, of course, most of those terms wouldn't be not only politically correct today, but just flat out strange to hear some of them. And we didn't read the whole magazine, y'all. We just picked out certain little articles throughout. Everything from dude who stole and got busted stealing peanut butter, which they put it in their all own words to such and such. And they worded a different way, but basically-

Jim: Fights.

Woody: -who got stabbed. And such stories today, spung a leak, or however they say, but you got to go listen to it. If you love Bloody Angola, and you love the history of the show, I mean, these articles and the wording and all the history, just the day-to-day life on the plantation back then is crazy.

Jim: It really is. And the great thing was, back in those days, they didn't censor things that got out of Angola like they do now. Those Angolites, I mean, they really talked about some stuff that would make you raise an eyebrow that no way it would get out now.

Woody: Right.

Jim: But back then--

Woody: And back then, really, though, it was really put on for the convicts and then it became nationally known and everything else and people would get subscription. Hell, I had a subscription to it in the early 90s. But back then, it was more like their newspaper.

Jim: Yeah, that's right. And so that was the season that our most fire season so far as Woody would say. And so, when we're looking back at this, we're like, "Man, we just set a real high bar for Season 5," but we're up to the challenge.

Woody: That's right.

Jim: We're up to the challenge. [crosstalk] We're going to tell you more. That's right. Woody: We'll take it to the next level maybe.

Jim: The next level. That's what we do. And so, we're going to give y'all a look right now into Season 5 and some things that are definitely going to take place. And look, anytime you start off a season, you look for that one story, that one character that really grabs an audience because you're constantly gaining listeners. So, that's kind of your goal, is I want to put something out there first that people can really get attracted to and we found that.

Woody: We definitely did.

Jim: Charlie Frazier--

Woody: Probably the most infamous convict ever. Well, I can't say that. Jim: I would say in the South for sure.

Woody: Certainly, the Brent Miller killings and stuff like that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah.

Woody: But this guy overall, what he did, how he lived his life. And what he did to eventually end up in Angola and all the things that happened, holy smokes. Y'all, we're going way back in history here. It's not a stretch to say that-- our episode in whatever season, the Red Hat Cell Block, it's not a stretch to say they built that cell block for Charlie Frazier. He was a bad ass. He could escape from anywhere. But we're going to tell you everything about him.

Jim: And he did.

Woody: And Jim Chapman has outpunted his coverage this time. Jim: Oh, my God, ever, ever.

Woody: Wait till you see in Patreon, you'll get to see more than anybody else because all the documents and news stories and photographs and it's going to blow your mind. And as any proper great story that I've learned over the years doing on Real Life Real Crime, it's going to have to be a multi-part series. And you're going to want it to be a multi-part series. The only thing you're going to hate is when that episode ends because you're like, "Argh," till the next one.

Jim: There's no doubt about it.

Woody: And the patrons, of course, will get it commercial free and early releases.

Jim: That's right. Look, with this particular guy, ever since we first started this, Season 1, I have been digging, digging, digging. It is very, very hard to get information on this particular guy, Charlie Frazier, for a multitude of reasons. One, back then, they just didn't keep records like they do now.

Woody: No social media.

Jim: Yeah, there's things that happen every time things get lost. Woody: There's no cable news, no TV channels or whatever.

Jim: No doubt. This guy, I'm telling y'all, I'll make a promise to you. In my opinion, this will be the definitive history of Charlie Frazier. No doubt about it. I have over 100 pages' worth of information. Now, we're going to freeball this thing. Freeball, that’s kind of weird-- but we're going to freeball it. We might not wear no underwear in the studio today. [chuckles] But we're going definitely talk off the cuff about this guy.

But Patreon members, I want to say this just for you people. Look, everybody that gets this show outside of a Patreon or outside of an Apple Podcast and we're going to talk about that in just a minute. Anybody that gets information outside of that is getting it for free. And we love that. Look, everybody cannot be a subscriber. So, what we ask for those people to do is if you want to pay us back for the hours and hours we spend doing this stuff, all you have to

do is share the podcast. And that is all we would ever ask for those that just are not in a position where they can support any other way. We appreciate that, we love it, we get it, and so those people, we thank as well.

But our Patreon members, they have a financial investment in our success and that's huge. We love, love all of you, whether you do that or not. But for those folks, we give them something extra for that.

Woody: We give them a lot extra- Jim: Yes.

Woody: -Patreon members for Bloody Angola. Unless we are doing a little TikTok right now because--

Jim: We don't do enough of that, right? [crosstalk]

Woody: For the BA, y'all, on TikTok, we're discussing the ending of this season and the

beginning of the next and the fire stories. And we love y'all.

Jim: Yes. That's right. We actually just dropped it, so check out that TikTok, by the way, Real Life Real Crime on TikTok. And you'll see all kinds of great stuff. But getting back to that, this particular Charlie Frazier episode, y'all, I have newspaper articles, clippings. I have actual records from where Charlie Frazier checked into hotels and signed his name. I have actual pictures of the places where people were killed. All of that, we're going to put just for patron members.

Woody: We really think it's going to be such a success-- somebody's going to want to do a documentary on, and you've already done all the work.

Jim: Yeah. If you're not a member yet, join in the next couple of weeks. We're also going to talk about a little guy by the name of Huddie Ledbetter who is otherwise known as Lead Belly. Look, for those of y'all that aren't familiar, he is probably the most popular or one of the most popular convicts ever in Bloody Angola. He was a blues musician that actually got released from prison-

Woody: Because he was a blues musician.

Woody: -because he was-- some people say he's the best blues musician ever. So, we're going to be covering the story. His story is absolutely unbelievable. Phenomenal story. We're going to be doing that this season. How about-- y'all ready for this? Look, we've been working on getting someone on the show that would-- I've never seen an interview that this guy has done.

Woody: Me either.

Jim: But he has done something that is worldwide famous, and that is he was the detective

that actually caught Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro.

Woody: Not only caught them, he's the one that actually got confessions out of. FBI and everybody else also was there, and they flew Mr. Sharp in. They flew him in and he got the confessions.

Jim: So, this season, Detective Donald Sharp, for those of y'all, Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro, well, let me tell you this. Sean Penn played the character in Dead Man Walking that these guys were based after.

Woody: I think he won an Academy Award for it.

Jim: I believe he did as well. This exclusive interview with Detective Donald Sharp coming at

you this season, get ready for it.

Woody: And we would want to thank him ahead of time for coming in and doing this. [crosstalk]

Jim: Yeah, he don't have to do it. I want to thank his daughter who reached out to me and kind of got me in contact with Detective Sharp.

Woody: Thank you.

Jim: Yeah, thank you very much. And a fan of the show, and listens to the show, shoutout to

her.

Woody: Right. That’s amazing.

Jim: Also, how about there's something in Angola that we've been requested since Season 1 to talk about, and that is the Rodeo.

Woody: Rodeo. And by the time we get to this story, the Rodeo happens four weekends, every weekend in October, every year, and then I think one weekend in April. But anyway, it'll be that time by the time this story comes out. It's just a whole different world.

Jim: Yeah. We're going to bring it to you.

Woody: We're going to bring it to you and it's so much that goes on and all that.

Jim: So, we're going to be bringing you the Angola Rodeo. And how about something that I get a lot of requests for and that-- Actually, a lot of people are shocked, they know that at some point through listening to our show that women were imprisoned at Angola.

Woody: My grandmother was actually a correctional officer there for the women part of the prison. When my mama was a baby girl, they lived on the B-Line.

Jim: There you go, and I haven't even talked to Woody about this yet, but I actually have been doing an enormous amount of research on women in Angola specifically. I have a heck of a show that we're going to be bringing your way specifically about the women.

Woody: Yeah.

Jim: So, you're going to love that.

Woody: If the master historian researcher says he's got it, then-- [crosstalk]

Jim: I got it. I got the juice. [laughs]

Woody: He loves to give me the juice for the fourth time, and I'm like, "Oh, wow."

Jim: Yeah, man. When I found the juice on Charlie Frazier, it was 11 o’clock at night, I'm texting Woody.

Jim: I was like, "Yes, yes."

Woody: "You're not going to believe what I got my hands on."

Jim: When we finally do get to take the tour of Angola, we're going to be able maybe teach them something.

Woody: Oh, yeah. In addition to that, we're going to bring you a couple of single cases that have really made a lot of headlines in Angola. One of them is just a horrible individual. We're going to talk about, not only his time before he was incarcerated in Angola and what he did, but we're going to tell you about what he did when he got there, which includes escape attempts. And it's a guy by the name of Brandon Scott Lavergne. We're going to be bringing you that finally after a lot of research. And we're going to bring you another one that I have my eye on, but we'll leave that one a surprise. We'll let you wait. Now, so that's some upcoming stuff that we have.

And we also want to tell you about some new features that we have on Bloody Angola that we've been constantly working towards. When you're running these podcasts and you're doing these things, it's a constant work because you have to stay up with technology. And one of the things that I felt like we, and Woody also felt like we had a gap in, was our Apple Podcast listeners that we have a Patreon and let me tell y'all, the Patreon is where it's at, as far as detailed bonus content. There's no limitations to Patreon. You can have several different tiers and all that, but some people just don't do it. They're just not fans of it, maybe of that website or whatever. We want to make sure we didn't leave them out. So, we partnered with Apple Podcast to where you can get bonus episodes and early releases right from Apple Podcast. You don't have to sign up for another source. I think they just bill your Apple account like they do the App Store and stuff.

Jim: The other thing about it is, Jim, is they get to try it.

Woody: Yes, it's a seven-day free trial.

Jim: Free trial, we're offering a free trial for seven days.

Woody: So, go in and listen to content. If you don't like it, great. But I can promise you, you're going to love it.

Jim: Yeah, you're going to love it.

Woody: Like you said, it's different from Patreon and I get that. But some people just want to

be able to go and punch a button and listen.

Jim: Absolutely. And hey, look, were honored to have Apple Podcast approve us for that. That's an approval process. It's not automatic like some things are, so it spoke highly of our show that they would approve us for that, wanted us on board and pushing us and all those sorts of things. Also, another reminder on that front, two quick things. Bloody Angola, follow the Facebook page because we post all kinds of fun stuff on there. Sometimes, it's just updates. Sometimes, it's just what we're doing.

Woody: Jim always comes up with the coolest artwork for each episode. [chuckles] [crosstalk]

Jim: I love it. I'm so proud of my artwork. That is another thing I text Woody at 11 o’clock, "Check this out."

Woody: "Woody, look at this," and I am like waiting outside of my box [unintelligible 00:32:21].

Jim: [laughs] Yeah, no doubt about it. So, check that out. And we also have a website where you can purchase Bloody Angola swag. Look, we just added a couple of things. Another thing that our highest tier Patreon members get, they get a quarterly gift. We don't want to send the same t-shirt 10 ten times or a different t-shirt every time. So, every time we send that quarterly gift, it's something different. So, those of you out there that I know are listening right now that got one of those, maybe post a picture of you holding it, maybe a selfie, and send it to me and maybe I'll send you something extra and put it on the page.

Woody: Not only is it Bloody Angola related, this latest round, we even signed it. Jim: Oh, yeah, that's right.

Woody: Jim and I both signed them.

Jim: That’s right. And we'll be offering those also for purchase, I just got to get those uploaded to the website and you can buy. We have a few of those left and you can be styling in some Blood Angola swag. But don't forget about the website and the fact you can listen to all the episodes directly from it if you chose to. It has a swag store. We also do some blogging on there. So, I'm sure I'm going to be doing a lot of blogging coming up with these crazy episodes. But you can check those blogs out and those are great things to share on Facebook pages and stuff for people that may be interested.

Woody, our growth, which is what you look for is nothing too short of staggering.

Woody: Y'all validate us. And it's amazing. I want to say this, I think it's September 30th?

Jim: Yeah, for the Podcast Awards? Yeah, September 30th.

Woody: I want to remind you all, y'all voted and made us a Top 10 finalists for the History category-

Jim: Huge honor.

Woody: -in all podcasts in the world, in the History category. And it's a huge honor. Hey, just to make the finals is fire, and the Top 10 in the World in History? We're already winners and I think we got a real legit shot because of you fans.

Jim: Yeah. I do too. September 30th, another thing with the Facebook, we're going to post the link where you can go watch it live. They have a little award ceremony online. You can click on that and you can actually watch the whole Podcast Awards online. And they'll announce the winners and play little videos, acceptance videos.

Woody: I just want to thank y'all again for getting us there, just under a year old.

Jim: And we love it because with this award ceremony in particular, the fans vote on it. It's

not a panel of people that don't know us.

Woody: It's people's choice. Y'all did it. The top 10 belongs to y'all, not Jim and I. And if we win it, that'd be another blessing. And the award belongs to y'all.

Jim: That's right. Just a last little thing today. This will be a shorter episode than normal because it's a wrap-up show. But we want to let you know that next week, we're going to do a little episode swap, and we're going to have everything. We're going to be prepping for Season 5, but we're going to put a fire episode of Real Life Real Crime on the feed here with Bloody Angola.

Woody: Absolutely. It's going to be love, and I love it. We hadn't done one of those in a long time. We're also going to put a Bloody Angola episode on Real Life Real Crime Original.

Jim: That's right. Because everybody that listens to one, then listen to the other, our numbers will be exactly the same. [laughs] So hopefully, someone will hear that maybe they'll introduce other people to the family.

Woody: And y’all, this is a process, and certainly it is a business. So many podcasts come and go, but we have grown and grown and grown, and we've made it. And yes, Patreons, thank you so much, now our Apple subscribers. And thank you to our advertisers.

Jim: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that. HelloFresh, which is advertising on this episode.

Woody: Look, I'm a foodie, and I'm not just giving a senseless plug. They've been sponsoring me through Real Life Real Crime since like 2019. And the food is phenomenal.

Jim: It is.

Woody: I guess I get stuck in my old Cajun cooking ways or whatever. They send me this box of stuff and I'm like, "Oh," but all the sauces and the fresh meats and everything are in there, and I've never been disappointed. Sometimes, I tell my wife, like, "I'll reorder that right now." And it's a great deal.

Jim: It really is. And in the show notes of this episode, you can get that, and I believe it's 50BLOODYANGOLA.

Woody: That's the code.

Jim: And you get all kinds of perks. It's like 50% off 15 meals or something like that. Woody: It's way cheaper than going out to eat or having something delivered.

Jim: Especially with that code but make sure you use that code, y'all, and we'll link it. We're going to talk about it in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down and you'll get all the information you need on that deal. And it helps support the show. It helps keep your grocery bill down.

Woody: And it helps filling your stomach with some great food.

Jim: That’s right.

Woody: You'll be looking like a crackhead like me for that box to be delivered. Jim: [laughs] That's it. And it makes you look like a heck of a cook.

Woody: Oh, yeah. If you want to impress somebody, oh, yeah, it's--

Jim: Yeah. So, check them out, HelloFresh. We're very thankful for them. And look, on another note on that, and the last thing we'll bring up on sponsors, I've had a few local folks to Louisiana ask about sponsoring Bloody Angola. If you want information on that, just shoot me an email, jim@localleadersthepodcast.com or bloodyangola@gmail.com. I check the first one quicker than the second one. So, that one I check every five minutes, so the Local Leaders is the best one to use. But I can give you some information on how you can be a local sponsor for the show.

Woody: Yeah. And a lot of different options on that. And we have a huge listener base, especially here in Louisiana.

Jim: Absolutely. And we give you guys a special deal because you're local folks and we want to help you out. So, until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. I'm blessed and love all y'all. Jim: Yes, your hosts of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.

[Bloody Angola theme]

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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In this episode of Bloody Angola podcast we go back…to a long lost interview you need to hear when woody and Jim came up with the concept for Bloody Angola.

A special bonus drop for everyone!

Timestamps

02:42 Interview with Woody and Jim

06:01 History of Angola Prison

08:47 Collaboration Between Hosts

11:55 Guest Appearances and Stories

14:54 Graphic Content and Expectations

19:00 Unique Aspects of Angola Executions

23:20 Research and Historical Context

26:35 Conclusion and Promotions

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On July 21st 2022 Award Winning Podcasters Woody Overton and Jim Chapman bring you "Inside The Wire" for a unique look at the bloodiest prison in America. Bloody Angola is a no holds barred look at the convicts and the "free people" of the Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. 

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In this episode of Bloody Angola podcast, we delve into the chilling world of serial killers and the intricate process of catching them. Drawing from the case of Derek Todd Lee, a notorious serial killer in the Baton Rouge area of Louisiana, we discuss how the FBI profiling of serial killers has evolved over the years. We highlight the challenges law enforcement faced in accurately profiling Derek Todd Lee, who defied the initial FBI profile by being a person of color. The episode delves into the power of DNA evidence in catching serial killers, using examples like Brian Koberger's case, where familial DNA played a crucial role in identification.

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In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We drop a classic episode from Woody Overton's Real Life Real Crime original series entitled S.W.I.M. as we prepare for the Season 5 premier of Bloody Angola!

#BloodyAngola #Podcast #truecrime #SWIM #RealLifeRealCrime

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In this episode, The gripping tale of the Canton brothers is told, whose fateful robbery on Halloween 1911 led to the tragic murder of attorney Edgar Farrar Jr. and their subsequent arrest, sensational trial and the aftermath spent behind the wire, inside of Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola.

Timestamps

01:30 The Canton Brothers' Crime

09:23 The Murder of Edgar Farrar Jr.

12:48 The Trial Begins

14:02 A Mistrial and New Trial

17:13 Verdicts Rendered

21:51 A Letter of Clemency

29:29 Changes in the Prison System

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, Woody and Jim continue with the look into and response to the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as it relates to Louisiana Prisons by looking into the challenges faced as female prisoners made their way to Louisiana Correctional Institute for Women (LCIW), The use of Camp Amtrak as a temporary jail and the arrivals at lap at Angola. 

#LCIW #LSP #BloodyAngola #podcast #CampAmtrak #crime #truecrime 

Timestamps

18:49 LCIW Evacuees and Their Challenges

23:02 Influx at Louisiana State Penitentiary

34:21 Establishing Camp Amtrak

40:45 Operations at Camp Amtrak

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In this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast, Woody and Jim bring you some new details and insight into the C-Murder case and a revamped edition of our top downloaded episode of 2023!

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Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of Connor Wood. A 15 year old convicted of the murder of his parents and his best friend in Ferriday, Louisiana in 2008.

Timestamps

02:27 The Disturbing Phone Call

03:25 The Identity Revealed

04:48 Uncovering the Truth

05:46 Shocking Discoveries

06:47 A Surprising Revelation

10:29 Connor's Confession

15:43 The Failed Plan

16:57 Plan Gone Awry

18:37 Confrontation in the Hallway

20:09 Shocking Conclusion

21:09 Motive Revealed

21:51 Legal Proceedings

30:37 Sentencing Explanation

33:02 Parole Opportunity

36:05 Prisoner Rehabilitation Program

#bloodyangolapodcast #connorwood #crime #truecrime #podcast #louisiana #prison 

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, we delve into the second part of Extreme Heat, discussing a civil lawsuit by inmates against the prison. We examine the backgrounds of the inmates named as plaintiffs, detailing their convictions for serious crimes like murder and armed robbery. 

The discussion covers the judge's ruling on Eighth Amendment violations due to extreme prison temperatures. We also explore the Angola Prison Rodeo, focusing on inmate Myron Smith.

Legal developments include a federal judge ordering improvements for inmates working in extreme heat on the farm line, addressing allegations of inhumane conditions and forced labor. The conversation delves into the state's responses, and the aftermath.

Timestamps

02:19 Inmates' Criminal Backgrounds

06:56 Myron Smith: From Rodeo Champion to Plaintiff 

11:40 Federal Judge's Order on Angola Conditions

25:36 Inmates' Victories and Public Response

29:05 Legal Strategies and Inmate Advocacy

30:58 Inmate Law Libraries and Defense Strategies

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The second season of Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman has wrapped but that did not stop this dynamic podcast duo from dropping a Christmas special episode in-between seasons!

Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Birthday Jesus!

#RealLifeRealCrime #HellorJail #Christmas #Podcast

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Woody is stuck in the snow on the way back from Wisconsin, but it did not stop Jim from making sure you got your Bloody Angola fix for this week! He broke a previously unreleased episode from the Patreon vault out of jail! 

In this episode Bloody Angola Podcast covers several stories of serial killers who were released from prison on parole only to commit more murders.

#bloodyangolapodcast #tokillagain #serialkillers

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TRANSCRIPT

BLOODY ANGOLA PODCAST: TO KILL AGAIN

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody Angola, a podcast 142 years in the making the complete story of America's bloodiest prison. And I am Jim Chapman. And as you probably noticed, Woody Overton was not helping me with that intro. And I promise y'all, he's going to be back next week. Super-secret mission. 

Today, I thought it would be fun to talk a little bit with y'all about paroled, murderers and serial killers. And this is going to be kind of a companion podcast. We're not going to be talking specifically about Angola. There's just so much content out there, y'all, with all the presence, all these historic presence throughout the nation. And so today, I wanted to bring y’all something a little bit different. So first of all, just to discuss a little bit about parole. 

So parole is when you get released, but you're still in the charge of the prison system. So basically, they're letting you out back into society, but there are certain parameters you have to live up to. A lot of times, these folks that get paroled, they are under, what's called, supervised parole, where they have to report into a parole officer. Many times, you have to wear the little ankle bracelet that is basically like GPS and those sort of things. A lot of times, you can't leave a certain area. They've got to pretty much know where you are at all times, which is a great thing. But a lot of people think, when you get paroled, you're getting released from the system. You're not. 

Basically, they're saying you can serve out the rest of your sentence in society and you don't have to be, in Angola's case, behind the wire. But if you do anything wrong, you have to serve out the remainder of your sentence. And in some cases, a lot more than that, because then you're breaking another law. And that's a whole another case you just caught in many instances. So that's what parole is. 

Now, there's a lot of killers that you wouldn't believe were paroled nationally, and I'm going to give you a few of those today. We'll start with Kenneth Allen McDuff. So who is Kenneth Allen McDuff? Well, he was paroled not, so he could necessarily adjust a life, not to reduce recidivism, which is basically re-offense in all criminal justice systems, whether it's the United States or anywhere else. They track recidivism, which is, you get out of jail and then you continue to commit crime and you end up back in jail. Well, the United States has a high rate of recidivism. Many, many an extremely high percentage of prisoners that get released back into society do recommit, and end up back in prison. There's a lot of reasons for that. 

Sometimes they're just bad people and they're never going to quit doing what they do, and then sometimes they get released and really do try to change their life around. But for whatever reason, they end up recommitting like, maybe they couldn't get a job because they had a felony. So they resort back to the one thing they know. If they were someone that robbed people, they continue to rob because that's the only way they know to make money, and that's not making an excuse. But in some cases, some do try to change. And the way society is set up, in some ways, that's hard to do when you've got felonies on your record and you spend a long time in prison. So I would say the vast majority are just bad people and they just recommit, but not all of them are thrown into that bucket. 

So Kenneth Allen McDuff, well, he was paroled not because of any of those reasons and not because he no longer posed a threat to public society. He was paroled to reduce overcrowding, y’all. Big problem right now. Let's talk about that for a second. Overcrowding. So I would say the vast majority of the people in prison definitely deserve to be there. Do people go to prison that didn't do anything wrong and get wrongfully accused of a crime? Absolutely. It happens. As a matter of fact, I've seen stats as high as 5% to 6%, even higher than that in some cases. But if you find the average on those percentages, I've seen it's around 6% actually didn't commit the crime, they're in jail for a crime they didn't commit. And so it does happen. 

That contributes somewhat to overcrowding. A lot of it is the people that are in prison, there's a lot of people that aren't necessarily drug dealers, but they got caught with drugs, they're in prison. In a lot of cases, prison is not going to help rehabilitate a drug addict. And most drug addicts that have turned the corner and gotten on the good side of life, I guess you could say, they will tell you, prison a lot of times will make it worse. They need other types of help. But the prisons are full of drug addicts. And so that is probably the number one cause of overcrowding. 

Now, from 1966 to 1992, Kenneth McDuff, get this, committed between 9 and 22 murders in Texas. 9 to 22 murders, and they released him free into society on parole. McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara described McDuff as a “cold-blooded psychopathic killer who was more evil than the devil himself. Going as far to say McDuff never should have been released,” and I didn't have to read you that quote to figure that out. 9 to 22 murders, damn right he should have never been released. So he was on death row for actually murdering three teenagers in 1966. This dude was on death row, but his sentence got reduced to life with the possibility of parole in 1972. And that happens in a lot of cases. There's many, many lifers in Angola and in all kinds of prisons throughout the country that actually got their sentences reduced and changed to life in prison. So no different for McDuff. 

In 1972, his sentence was reduced to life. But get this, he was released in 1989 due to prison overcrowding. Absolutely crazy. Now, in 1990, the parole board actually had a chance to send him back to prison after McDuff was arrested for chasing and threatening black teenagers. That was enough. Remember what I told you? They let him out of prison, but he is still under all those prison parameters. Meaning, if he commits any crime, he has to serve out the remainder of his sentence, which in McDuff's case was life. 

So he chased down and he made a bunch of threats to these black teenagers. But neither of his actions nor the racial incentive he expressed at his parole hearing returned him to his prison cell. He just didn't go back to prison for it. I guess they figured it was just threatening. He didn't actually do anything. They regretted it because he killed at least three women between his release on parole and his return to prison finally in 1992. And he actually went to prison at that point for abducting and murdering a convenience-store clerk named Melissa Northrup and an accountant named Colleen Reed. He never expressed any remorse for his crimes. And he was finally executed by lethal injection in 1998. 

So this dude actually got released from prison. Well, first, he got his sentence changed from the death sentence to life in prison, then he gets released, then he kills at least three more people that they know of. He gets convicted of two of those, goes back on death row, and gets executed by lethal injection in 1998. So if you want to learn more about this asshole, you can definitely-- I invite you to go to google and just google Kenneth Allen McDuff. It's a pretty crazy story that one day we're going to bring to you. 

So I'm going to tell you about another one. His name is Loren Herzog, spelled L-O-R-E-N. So it may be Loren, but we're going with Loren, just because I'm not quite sure exactly how it's pronounced. But he was known as the California Speed Freak Killer. His last victim appeared to have been himself. Now, after committing a number of murders with Wesley Shermantine, who was a friend of his since childhood, he was sentenced to 78 years to life for murdering and raping Cyndi Vanderheiden. In 2004, an appeals court found that his confession may have been coerced, and a new trial was ordered for him. 

Now, when offered a plea deal, he agreed to plead guilty to manslaughter in exchange for a 14-year sentence, and he was actually paroled in 2010. Can you imagine? That sentence is 78 years to life. And over what was basically a technicality, his sentence gets reduced to manslaughter and he gets out of prison in 2010. So two years later, the parole agent who was monitoring him using GPS technology, just like I told you about at the beginning, those ankle bracelets and such, found that the tracking bracelet had a low battery. When Herzog failed to answer his telephone, the agent notified police and they found Herzog dead inside the trailer he inhabited on a fenced off property outside of the prison. So police basically investigated his death as a possible suicide. So the motive for a suicide was basically thought to have been his knowledge that Shermantine intended to tell police where the bodies of their victims were located. So he wasn't doing none of this alone. Sacramento bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla, relayed this information to Herzog shortly before Herzog killed himself. 

It's possible, he and Shermantine might have faced charges for additional homicides depending on the number of identities of the body's authorities recovered based on Shermantine's information. So, there's another one for you that was released and continued to murder. Again, you want to check him out, learn more about him? He's definitely our piece of shit number two for today. But you can google Loren, L-O-R-E-N Herzog, H-E-R-Z-O-G, and it'll tell you more information on him. 

So let's talk about Michael Keith Moon. Now, Michael Keith Moon was a career criminal who had numerous, y'all, numerous chances to reform. In 1981, he was convicted of stabbing a woman to death in Reno, Nevada. After his release from prison, in 1991, he was convicted of attempted murder for stabbing a man in a bar in Woodstock, Illinois. He was released again in 2005, and three years later was convicted of a second-degree murder after killing a 24-year-old man in California. So he goes back to prison. And guess what? In 2014, he was again granted parole and began living in a halfway house in downtown San Diego. Now, a detective by the name of Chuck Gaylor believes he committed even more murders between his time in Reno and his latest arrest and says that, “Chuck Gaylor is most likely a serial killer.” I don't even know what to say about that. You've even got detectives telling you this guy is a serial killer, and you're letting him out, just totally blows my mind. 

So let's go on to the next one, and that's Louis van Schoor, and that's spelled S-C-H-O-O-R. Now, in 1992, this serial killer, who was of South African descent, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for committing seven murders and attempting two others. So he was sentenced for those seven murders and the two he attempted. That's 9 total, 20 years in prison. That's all he was sentenced to. I couldn't believe that when I was researching this. Now, in 2004, he got released, and after serving 12 years, walking straight into the arms of his fiancé. So this guy actually was living a happy life after he committed all these murders. It was only 12 years after his conviction in 1992. 

Now, responding to silent alarms and businesses, van Schoor, who was a member of the police canine unit and security guard at the time of the murder, said he shot as many as 100 people between 1986 and 1989. And you just heard me right. I was saving that as a surprise. van Schoor was a cop. van Schoor said he was glad to be back in society and he hoped people would judge him by his future rather than his past crimes. Initially, he had nothing to say to his victims' families, but later conceded he'd appreciate their forgiveness. Absolutely freaking crazy. That's just nuts, y'all.

Now, let's talk about William Huff. So calling himself The Phantom. Serial killer, William Huff murdered seven-year-old Cindy Clelland and six-year-old Jenelle Haines and targeted a third girl before he was arrested. The murders took place in Sierra Vista, Arizona. Now, on April 30th, 1967, Cindy had been collecting bottles in exchange for candy at her neighborhood store. Following the discovery of Cindy's naked body on May 2nd, the police received a handwritten note. The note basically said, “I am The Phantom. You have found my first victim. My next victim lives on Steffan Street. Nine years old,” and in the parentheses he put (Fools!!!) and three explanation points. Now when police provided the targeted girl with 24 hours protection, Huff apparently decided to kill Jennelle instead, which was a military colonel's daughter. She was playing by a pond near the Lakeside Officers Club on June 22nd when Huff abducted her. Later that day, Janelle's body, just like Cindy's, was found naked. Six-year-old girl, y'all. 

Now police had already suspected Huff a neighborhood teenager at the time, and following Jennelle’s murder, the police chief saw Huff leaving the army post at which the Officer's Club was located. A handwriting sample obtained from Huff matched the note from The Phantom. 

Now, upon conviction for the girl's murder, he was sentenced to 15 years for one homicide and 40 for the other. And in 2005, the parole board voted unanimously to grant him parole. In 2006, he began living under house arrest in a halfway house in Tucson, Arizona. Ellen Kirschbaum, who chaired the parole board said she couldn't predict whether Huff might murder someone else. Absolutely fucking bananas, y'all. Crazy. This dude killed a six-year-old girl in addition to two others and was walking free. 

Let me tell you about Vernon Tatum. In 2017, after serving 13 years for raping and murdering several elderly women, serial killer Vernon Tatum was paroled for good behavior while incarcerated. After living in a halfway house downtown, Tatum planned to return to the Kansas City neighborhood in which he committed the crimes. Local police were disturbed at the thought a killer would soon be back among them. “He's one of the most dangerous individuals I've ever dealt with,” police detective Lester Scott said. 13 years for raping and murdering several elderly women considered a serial killer, not considered he was. And he's walking free. 

Let me tell you about Arthur Shawcross. Now, he began his career as a serial killer at the age of 27. In 1972, when he killed a 10-year-old boy, he had lured into the woods on the pretext of going fishing with him. The same year, he sexually assaulted and murdered an eight-year-old girl, who he led to a deserted area and showed her a new bicycle. He was arrested after eyewitnesses identified him as the man they had seen with their children, and he confessed to both murders. Confessed to him. But in a plea deal, he was charged with only one count. It wasn't even a murder, it was a manslaughter, which is a slap on the wrist in comparison. Now, because he was a model prisoner, he was paroled after serving 14 years only of a 25-year sentence. His criminal records were sealed. 

He settled in New York. And in 1988, guess what? No surprise. He starts killing people again. He would get prostitutes, he would kill them by asphyxiation, choke them to death, and then he'd mutilate them. A helicopter pilot happened to spot him near a murder scene, and he was arrested. He admitted to committing 10 murders, y'all. 10 murders. And he was sentenced to 250 years in prison. But I want you to think about this. Had they just kept him in prison the first time, 10 people may have been alive today that are not because he got out. Absolutely crazy. 

Let me tell you about Louise Peete. Yep, that's a female, Louise Peete. And I swear she looks like just your regular, everyday lady. Now, after serving 18 years for the murder of Jacob Charles Denton in 1920, Louise Peete was paroled. She was arrested again in 1944 after the decomposing body of Margaret Logan, who was 60, was found in a grave in the victim's California backyard. Peete admitted to burying her body but refused to say anymore. Now, in a written statement, Peete later claimed that Margaret's husband, Arthur, had shot his wife to death after first attacking Margaret. Peete said she waited for Arthur to retire for the night before burying the dead woman in Logan's backyard, afraid she'd be convicted of the murder and return to prison if the body was discovered. So her story essentially was, “I didn't kill her. Arthur did. But I went ahead and buried the body because I knew y'all would think I killed her because I'd already been in jail for murder.” So she was tried for Margaret's homicide, and Peete was found guilty of murder in the first degree, and at this time, they sentenced her to death. 

Prosecutors proved Arthur couldn't have killed his wife at the time, because he was already dead, having passed away in an insane asylum prior to the discovery of Margaret's body. So they were able to basically date even back then. Way back in 1944, they were able to date that body back to a particular time period, and they were like, “Wait a minute, he was already dead, so he couldn't have killed this lady.” And so Peete gets executed at San Quentin state prison’s gas chamber. They had the gas chamber in 1947. The motives for her crime were monetary, basically. She just wanted money. By shooting her victim, she hoped to gain their property and their estates. And as she was about to be executed, she told the prison's warden, who was Clinton Duffy at San Quentin that, “I've been ready for a long time.” And then she inhaled that gas. I hope she took the deepest breath she ever took in her life and just choked and burned. When you suck in that gas from the gas chamber, it's going to burn your throat, and I hope she suffered. 

So let me tell you about Gerald Gallego and Charlene Williams. Gerald was twice paroled before committing multiple sexual assaults and 10 murders. He was paroled in July 1961 after serving less than a year, y'all, in a boy school for committing lewd and lascivious acts with a six-year-old girl. So he rapes this six year old girl and serves less than a year in a boys school for it. And then in 1963, he gets arrested again and serves two years for armed robbery. Now, after five marriages in which he abused his wives, he meets Charlene Williams at a poker club in Sacramento, California. And together, in 1978, they began abducting girls in California and Nevada to serve as sex slaves. 

The first two victims were 17-year-old Rhonda Scheffler and 16-year-old Kippi Vaught, both of whom he shot dead following an apparent trust with them in a secluded wooded area. In all, by November 1980, the couple had racked up 10 victims, all teenagers, most of which they kept as sex slaves before murdering them. A friend of the last two victims, Craig Miller and his fiancé, Mary Sowers, saw the couple get into Gallego’s vehicle and wrote down its license plate number. At a remote location, Gallego shot Miller killing him before he and Williams drove to another location, where he sexually assaulted and murdered Sowers. 

Now, when Miller and Sowers didn't return home, the witness gave Gallego’s license number to the police. Convicted of the murders of Miller and Sowers, Gallego was sentenced to death in 1984. For testifying against him, Williams received a short 16-year, 8 months sentence and was paroled in 1997. And definitely google these. Not a bad looking couple. Definitely not a couple you'd look at and think they were having sex slaves and killing them and all this sort of stuff. Williams is still around, I mean, running free. So paroled for testifying against her husband or her boyfriend rather. 

Now, let's talk about Richard Marquette. Richard Marquette was a cannibal serial killer who chopped up and froze his victims. He'd save them to eat later. And his fellow inmates believed he'd kill again. But he was found fit for parole after serving only 12 years of his sentence. This is a dude that would kill people, freeze them, freeze their body parts, chop them up, freeze them, and eat them later on. And after 12 years, he was found fit for parole. Now, shortly after his release, as you would assume, he committed more murders. 

His first victim was Joan Caudle. She was 23. He said he met her in a Portland, Oregon bar on June of 1961. He strangled her when they argued after having consensual sex. Chops up her body to make it easier to dispose of her remains. He was arrested on June 30th of that year and got convicted in December of 1961 and sentenced to life in prison. Now paroled after serving 12 years, he killed again, but this time, the murder went undetected. He wasn't as lucky when he murdered and dissected Betty Wilson, however, in Salem, Washington. And guess what? He was sentenced to life in prison yet again. Crazy. Crazy. 

So that's just some of the probably hundreds of people that have been released after being serial killers or murders. They walk amongst you every day in some cases. You just never know who you're dealing with. And I thought that all of you, Patreon supporters, would appreciate hearing about several different parolees that sure as hell don't deserve to be walking amongst the free. I do want to say, and I know I speak for Woody when I say how much we love and appreciate all of you. Next time that we bring you something, I promise you, Woody will be with me. I hope y'all enjoyed my little solo stuff here. I don't do the solo stuff as much as Woody does. Typically, I'm more interview style. So with my podcast, which is Local Leaders: The Podcast, I interview business owners and with Real Life Real Crime Daily. Obviously, it's a three man deal with me, Woody and Mike Agovino. And so I've rather enjoyed talking to y'all. 

I'm not really talking by myself or talking to myself, because I'm talking to y’all, but I'm in here by myself and I've rather enjoyed it. This may be something that I consider doing more often at some point. But much love, I appreciate all of you. Please, please, please, very important before we get out of here. Obviously, if you're a supporter of Bloody Angola. You like the content and you definitely appreciate what we do. I would ask that just two requests. Number one, if you haven't reviewed us yet, I'm sure the majority of you have, please do so. Go to Apple podcast, if that's the app that you would get podcasts. Normally if you weren't listening on Patreon, go there and give us a review. If you're a Spotify person, please do that. Reviews are so important to our rankings. And the higher we rank, the more that they share our podcast with the world. So it's just so important. 

Also, please, if you could share us on Facebook, you can share the link from your Patreon and just say, “Hey, I love supporting Bloody Angola podcast.” If you'd like to join their patron, here's the link. If not, we understand, we totally get it. Times aren't great right now, financially for a lot of people, and we totally get it if someone can't do that. But they could sure join, they could listen on for free with ads included on iTunes and all that sort of stuff. So we're just trying to build this and make it as successful as we possibly can. Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman, your cohost of Bloody Angola, a podcast 142 years in the making a complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Peace. 

Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain, created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody. 

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, we explore the distinctions between inmates and convicts in the prison system.

Through the lens of various inmates' lives like James "Black Maddie" Robertson, Parnell Smith, Henry Patterson, and others, we unveil the challenges, growth, and survival strategies within Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola's confines.

 This episode also features intimate interviews with six lifers, offering candid insights on racial dynamics, faith, and personal reflections.

Timestamps:

04:31 "Black Mattie"

07:32 Parnell Smith

12:18 Henry Patterson

15:42 James Dunn

20:13 Mooreese Bickham

25:11 Voices of Angola

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From the creative minds of award winning podcasters Woody Overton of Real Life Real Crime  @Real Life Real Crime Podcast    and Jim Chapman of  @Local Leaders:The Podcast  

 Bloody Angola is a no holds barred podcast based on stories and interviews of the bloodiest prison in America, told like you have never heard it! 

Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola has a notorious history and the best in podcast storytelling and the best in interview style podcasting have joined forces to show bring a podcast experience like you have never seen! 

 Episode 2 "The Heel String Gang" is engineered and Produced by Jim Chapman and Envision Podcast Studios LLC 

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In this episode of "Bloody Angola," we explore the dark history of the Ware Center for Youth and the just released Louisiana Inspector General findings of the conditions within. 

The focus of this initial episode is on a New York Times investigation exposing shocking abuse and neglect at the facility, prompting a call for change that spearheaded an investigation of the Juvenile Facility by then Governor John Bell Edwards.

Allegations of rape, physical abuse and an unusually high number of suicides are covered in this episode.

It is important to note that this episode covers the Allegations made by the New York Times and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of this podcast.

Timestamps

07:18 Allegations by the New York Times

12:39 Investigations by the State Inspector General

16:17 The Politics of Ware

19:21 The Beginnings of Ware

22:22 Shakira's Journey to Ware

26:11 Punishments and Abuse at Ware

30:06 Horrific Allegations of Sexual Abuse

39:03 The Sheriff's Response

40:01 Uncovering Indifference

42:44 Surprising Outcomes

44:54 Superficial Oversight

46:09 Inadequate Corrections

47:35 Concealed Interviews

50:56 Rising Dysfunction

52:10 False Assurances

56:12 Regulatory Failures

57:47 Escalating Incidents

1:00:55 Reflecting on Impact

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In this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast we discuss the remarkable journey of Warden Ross Maggio at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. The youngest warden in Angola history at just 36 years old, he was renowned for his resilience during a harrowing kidnapping incident and his transformative leadership. Through prioritizing inmate work, security, and rehabilitation programs, Maggio reshaped Bloody Angola from a violent environment to a safer, disciplined prison. 

By implementing proactive security measures and emphasizing discipline, Maggio significantly reduced violent incidents and set a new standard for effective prison management. Despite facing challenges and criticisms, his unwavering commitment to safety and order left a lasting impact on Angola's prison system.

Timestamps

04:01 Retirement Reflections

09:10 Winds of Change

19:16 New Beginnings at Hunt

23:25 Advocating for Inmates

25:40 System Crossroads

28:26 Farewell to Angola

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The last meals of convicts, what would you choose if you were facing execution?

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman bring you another episode of Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman where the topic is some of the most infamous of those executed and what they choose to eat just before they ride the lightning or get the needle!

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman (LAST MEALS)

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The complete story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Jim: I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: And last meals, Woody Overton, are on our mind today.

Woody: I've always just been totally fascinated by the condemned and what they ask for their last meals. 

Jim: That's a big decision. I mean, people don't really think about it, but this is the last meal you'll ever eat and I'm sure these death row inmates, like all of us-- people ask y'all the time, "What is your favorite food?" And sometimes people can't decide on that.

Woody: I know Angola, back in my time, during corrections, they actually had an inmate that all he did was prepare the last meals for the condemned.

Jim: Yeah. And I'm sure considered it like quite an honor.

Woody: I think they even did a cookbook of it. I'm going to have to look that up. We have to do an episode on that cookbook.

Jim: We might have to do a cookbook.

[laughter] 

Jim: The Bloody Angola-- look, and I guarantee you some people going to message us down and say, "I'm a buyer, I want a cookbook."

Woody: We told y'all it would always be different. Today, we're not going to talk about Angola, we're going to talk about some really fascinating last meals from across the country.

Jim: Yeah. And last meals of death row inmates, they've been around a long time. Actually, they date back to the 20s in the United States, but in the UK, Europe, they were prevalent even in the 1800s.

Woody: Yeah, but they were killing a lot more people back then.

Jim: [laughs]

Woody: "Off with your head," and shit.

Jim: Yeah. I don't know how many people actually got to this side.

Woody: I think the [crosstalk] the public executions in England [unintelligible [00:03:20] were used until the early 20th century.

Jim: Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. And last meals of any sort-- and we're going to stick to the United States here, especially in the United States, when they were first invented or became in vogue or whatever, they were looked at as an act of mercy on the prisoners, kind of humanize them in the eyes of the general public.

Woody: "We'll feed you before we kill you."

Jim: Yeah. "He likes pizza and I like pizza. We got something in common," that kind of thing, I'm sure. It has become in vogue since the 20s. Usually, there's a certain time period in which these inmates have, it's not necessarily their last meal, it might be two days earlier that they get that special meal.

Woody: Yeah. In Louisiana, it is on the day of execution, but it varies by state to state.

Jim: Is every inmate entitled to a last meal?

Woody: No, they're not. Like I said, it varies state to state, including some states, you don't get your request for a last meal.

Jim: No last meal at all. You just eat whatever they got. 

Woody: Texas was the first state to introduce last meals to death throw inmates in 1924. It was quickly shared among other states. And after death row inmates, Lawrence R. Brewer's extravagant large and expensive last meal that he did not eat. Texas said, "We're not doing this shit anymore," but this dude didn't even eat, like, his last FU to the state of Texas. "You spent that money on me, and I'm not even going to eat it."

Jim: In Arizona, state procedures on executions state that an inmate can request the last meal by completing a form 14 days before their execution. So, they can't wait till the last minute. They got to give them at least two weeks' notice just like when you're hired and fired from a job or whatever. 

Woody: I can see that wouldn't be unreasonable to think that if you've been on death row probably for 20 years, you probably already know what you want probably way ahead of time. We're the state, right? We got red tape. Give us a form to sign.

Jim: That's right. Florida, just another reason for me to like Florida, other than the sunshine and the sand and all that sort of thing, Florida believes in local, and so when you have a last meal, it's got to be local.

Woody: And it's a $40 budget. Hey, it could be local, but you better not order a grass fed.

Jim: If you order a T-bone, you ain't getting a potato.

Woody: Yeah. $40.

Jim: So, that's interesting. Now in Louisiana, right here at home, the warden will join you.

Woody: Yes. Burl Kane was very instrumental in that, and I think he tried to show compassions to the inmates and that the state is really not their enemy. We're going to sit down. Actually, Warden Kane would eat the meals with him. Whatever they're eating, he would sit down and break bread with them right before he killed him.

[laughter]

Jim: Seems kind of bizarre, doesn't it? I'll tell you what, it's a show of respect, I think, more than anything else. Warden Kane actually started that program at Angola, and it continues today.

Woody: Remember, the Department of Corrections' job is not to punish the inmates, don't beat them every day for the murders they committed or whatever. You're simply to house them and stop them from escaping and hurting other people. So, even though you're going to kill them in a couple of hours, you can sit down and with their family members, usually, and break bread with them.

Jim: Yeah, right. If you thought $40 was wow, how can I make that stretch? I know what y'all are doing right now. You're sitting there and you're thinking, "For $40, could I get my favorite last meal?" Well, guess what? Be glad you don't live in Oklahoma, if you're not an Oklahoma listener right now, because in Oklahoma, you only get $25.

Woody: They say that a reasonable effort shall be made to accommodate the request, but the budget shall not be exceeded. [crosstalk] 

Jim: You can't get a Happy Meal for $25. 

Woody: Right. But in Maryland, they don't even offer a final meal selection. They say the death row inmate will eat the same as any other inmate in the prison.

Jim: That's right. States that maybe don't have the amount, I think of Vermont right off the top of my head, don't have the amount of executions. They'll let you go a little bit more crazy. They'll give you more personal choices of meal and things like that. That's just because their budget, it allows for that. They don't put a whole lot of people to death. Maybe they're just a small state, like a Vermont.

Woody: Right. Well, it's typically assumed that inmates sentenced to death can ask for anything they want for the last meal. It does, like we told y'all vary from state to state. Some states have budgets, and some have rules on locations of where the meals can come from, like Florida being local but some states don't allow last meals at all. 

Jim: Yeah. Not only that, this is going to surprise y'all, no state allows cigarettes.

Woody: That's crazy. Back in the day, cigarettes were everything in the prison. According to the Department of Corrections, no states allow cigarettes. Under an order by former Texas Governor George W. Bush, who would become the president later on, cigarettes were banned for health reasons.

[laughter]

[crosstalk]

Woody: We won't let you have that last cigarette before we let you ride Ol' Sparky, right? 

Jim: That's actually pretty good. Now, in 1997, there was an inmate by the name of Larry Wayne White. He requested a meal of liver fried onions, tomatoes, cottage cheese, and a cigarette. He got everything but his final smoke. How about that? I don't know if I'm picking liver as my last meal number one.

Woody: [crosstalk] -cottage cheese, livers, fried onions, maybe. Yeah, I probably like to have that cigarette but he didn't get it. 

Jim: Now, you may wonder, well, they can't smoke, but can they drink? Actually, alcohol is not allowed.

Woody: But it's frequently requested. In the earlier years, alcohol was allowed, and it sometimes still is, but it depends on who it is and where it's being requested.

Jim: Now, they've even had inmates, and I could see some out there doing it. They have actually requested Dom Pérignon. 

Woody: Dom Pérignon. 

Jim: One death row inmate actually requested but they denied him.

Woody: Denied. 

Jim: [crosstalk] 

Woody: He didn’t even get a pink champagne either.

Jim: MD 20/20, baby. [chuckles] 

Woody: But unorthodox or unavailable requests are replaced with similar substitutes, and it was not unusual for an inmate's final choices to reveal something about them.

Jim: That's what I find so interesting about this, and we're going to get into specific inmates and what they requested, and it does. It kind of reveals something about the inmate that you may pick up on by what they request for the last meal. Now, some decline a last meal in order to basically demonstrate contempt for the prison authorities. "I'm not going to give you the pleasure of giving me a last meal," or they're just so dadgum scared of going to the electric chair or getting a dose of the good ol' shot that they are unable to eat. Stomach's just in knots. They're not hungry. They're about to get the chair or get the needle, one of the two. 

Woody: They might have a little upset tummy from the nervousness, right?

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: But some inmates ordered things they had never tried before out of curiosity. Of course, some ordered their favorite foods to remind them of happier times. [unintelligible [00:11:43] thing, other kids had McDonald's in the neighborhood--

Jim: Ice cream. Oh, yeah.

Woody: [crosstalk] -Mama's soggy burger-- [crosstalk] [laughs]

Jim: [unintelligible [00:11:52] dough. Dough and a piece of meat.

Woody: Yeah, but [crosstalk] and later on in years of life, he'd love to have had that soggy burger, right?

Jim: Yeah, that's right. 

Woody: Or piece of gourmet cheese. 

Jim: Maybe you had a memory, you were at a circus or something and you wanted cotton candy as your last meal because you remember eating that when you were a kid at the circus. Who knows?

Woody: Yeah. But there are still 27 states that continue to authorize capital punishment. Well, y'all, that being the death penalty. The top 10 last meal requests in these 27 states, now, I don't know who's keeping these stats, y'all, but somebody did it. One of them is KFC.

Jim: Number one. The number one.

Woody: Number one is KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Jim: That don't surprise me.

Woody: Yeah.

Jim: Woody Overton told me his favorite meal at Angola was the fried chicken.

Woody: I like that better than I like KFC.

[chuckles] 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: Give me some Popeye's or something. 

Jim: Yeah, man, I'm telling you. 

Woody: KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken. You know what? That may have been all the parents could afford to feed them when they were a kid. The Colonel, right?

Jim: That’s right.

Woody: -[crosstalk] -like bucket. 

Jim: That's right. And pie is number two. Don't surprise me. It doesn't specify whether it's pumpkin or whatever, but--

Woody: Blueberry. 

Jim: Blueberry, pecan.

Woody: Rhubarb if you're a Yankee.

Jim: Yeah. 

[laughter] 

Woody: Another one, y'all, is ice cream. 

Jim: That's number three on the list.

Woody: I mean, I guess takes you back to your kid days or whatever. I'm not really a sweet tooth here, but the next one--

Jim: That don't surprise me. Number four, a steak. Of course.

Woody: I'd be down with a steak.

Jim: Yeah. Number five, pizza.

Woody: Who doesn't like pizza? Right?

Jim: That's right.

Woody: They could be the 99 cent Tony's Frozen Pizza my 12-year-old still likes to eat or--

Jim: Number six.

Woody: Boy, I was going to say, most pizzas nowadays will bust a $40 limit. 

Jim: Oh, yeah, you're right. 

Woody: But how about this one? A lobster.

Jim: That's number six on the list. That would be my wife's last meal choice. There's no doubt about it. Wendy loves her some lobster--[crosstalk] 

Woody: And how about this one? I guess you've never had steak. A hamburger.

Jim: Yeah, I [unintelligible [00:14:04]. I'd go with the steak personally but--

Woody: [crosstalk] -give me quarter pound cheese please, before you stab me with that needle. 

[laughter] 

Jim: Spaghetti, number eight on the list. 

Woody: Spaghetti. 

Jim: I can see that. 

Woody: Unless they bust them out of can, but spaghetti in the list.

Jim: Yeah, Chef Boyardee. I wouldn’t want none of that. It better be homemade.

Woody: Here's one that Jim Chapman would probably choose. Sushi. 

Jim: I could go with some sushi. Yes, indeed. 

Woody: Take all you want, eat all you take. 

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: [crosstalk] 

Jim: Number 10 on that list is crab potatoes or crab cakes, as we call it down here in Louisiana. 

Woody: Is that what it is? Because I was thinking like, potatoes from a crab bowl, but I didn't really get that. But crab cakes, I get it. I mean, you got a lot of people that have crabs, I guess.

Jim: That's right. Can't beat a little crab cake every now and then. Now, we're going to get into some peoples that these are infamous inmates you may or may not have heard of, but their last meals, we knew you'd find this interesting. The first one on our list is a guy by the name of Bruno Hauptmann. You might be saying, "Well, who the hell is that?" Well, you've heard of the next person I'm going to mention, which is Chaz Lindbergh. Of course, that was Charles Lindbergh's son, the 20-month-old who was basically kidnapped for ransom.

Woody: Crime of the Century, that’s what they called it back then. 

Jim: The Crime of the Century, that's right. Eventually Bruno Hauptmann, and I'm sure I'm mispronouncing his name, was convicted of that. He died by electric chair.

Woody: Electric chair. Ol' Sparky, but his last meal was celery, olives, chicken, French fries, buttered peas, cherries, and a slice of chocolate cake. Now, the celery, the olives, the chicken could all be put in a Bloody Mary is what I'm thinking.

[chuckles] 

Jim: [crosstalk] 

Woody: Fries, I like French fries, butter peas and the cherries. Actually, I like all that. I don't really care about the chocolate cake. But he got it and then they fried him. If the French fries weren't fried enough, they fried his ass and they fried them in his belly.

Jim: That's right. The next person we're going to get to is Victor-- Man, these names.

Woody: Feguer.

Jim: Feguer. 

Woody: F-E-G-U-E-R. 

Jim: He was from the SS or something.

Woody: But he died by hanging.

Jim: Yeah, he did.

Woody: He was convicted for kidnapping and murdering of a doctor because he wanted drugs. Basically, what he did, y'all, that’s when they had the Yellow Pages and doctors made house calls, he called all these doctors saying his wife or whoever needed some medicine and Dr. Bartels ended up going there and Feguer kidnapped and killed him. And then later found his body in a cornfield with a single gunshot went to the head. FEGUER was convicted. His last meal was, I love this one, he requested a single olive with its pit still in it. After his hang, the olive pit was found in one of his pockets. He had told the guards he wanted an olive tree to grow from his body. 

Jim: Yeah, he was crazy, obviously. He wants an olive tree to grow out his body. Now, in 1977, gentleman by the name of Gary Gilmore who got death by firing squad. Now, he was convicted of two murders that were committed during armed robberies. His two victims cooperated with him, but he still shot and killed him and demanded execution for his crimes after the reinstatement of the death penalty by the Supreme Court in 1976. He basically fought for the right to be executed after a 10-year moratorium. During that time, he was wanting to die. Probably jail wasn't for him. So, he's ready to go ahead and get the needle or ride the lightning or whatever it was he was going to do, but ended up, he did get executed. His last meal was a baked potato, a couple of cups of coffee, hard-boiled eggs, a hamburger, and three shots of whiskey.

[chuckles] 

Woody: Got to have a whiskey. 

Jim: Hell, yeah.

Woody: I want to talk about him real quick. So, his execution was by firing squad.

Jim: And this was in 1976, y'all.

Woody: Right. Actually, I think Utah still has an option. You have like three different options, and one of them is firing squad. The firing squad is made up of volunteers and then put them behind a wooden wall with holes cut into it from the sheet through. The volunteers then picked loaded shotguns. Gilmore was strapped to a chair that looked like Gruesome Gertie that Angola used, and his head was covered by a hood. What they don't tell you in this is the volunteers, some of the shotguns had blank rounds in it, so the shotgun still went off, but you never know who actually killed it so that volunteers wouldn't feel guilty later on for killing this asshole. 

Jim: That's right. In 1994, and we're to a female here, y'all, Margie Barfield, died by lethal injection.

Woody: Stuck her up. 

Jim: She was known as the Caretaker Murderer. She was the only woman in North Carolina to be executed by lethal injection. She was a convicted serial killer who was convicted of one murder but eventually confessed to six in total. She killed her own mother, whom she had poisoned with arsenic. Now, after autopsies, it was confirmed that she had killed others she had been taken care of, including her second husband. She was North Carolina's Black Widow to Louisiana's Black Widow, Lynette Kirby. Look for some episodes maybe on our Bloody Angola Boss Bitches coming up at you in our companion episodes. Her last meal was cheese noodles and Coke.

Woody: I don't even know what that is. I know what Cokes are.

Jim: Cheese noodles is probably like macaroni and cheese or something, I guess. I'm taking a guess.

Woody: Real quick on her, they went back, and when they examined these other people that she confessed to, they tested them for arsenic, and a lot of them had it in there. So, she was slowly poisoning her victims, and I think it's appropriate that she got the needle and got some poison of her own.

Jim: Yeah. Now, 1989, someone I know a good bit about. I've been researching this guy since I was a kid. Ted Bundy.

Woody: I met one of his survivors.

Jim: Died in the electric chair. Now, he kidnapped, raped, and murdered numerous young women and girls during the 1970s, and they suspect possibly earlier. He typically strangled or bludgeoned his victims and even mutilated them after death. He would prolong the events, but return to the corpses at their dump sites, or even take them home in order to gain further sexual gratification. Somewhat not unsimilar to an episode we did on-

Woody: Sean Vincent Gillis.

Jim: Sean Vincent Gillis. That's right. He'd go as far as to sleep with the corpses until putrefaction became unbearable. And what's putrefaction? 

Woody: The stink. Stunk.

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: [crosstalk] 

Jim: He just couldn't take it anymore, the smell. 

Woody: Everybody knows pretty much about Bundy, but his last meal, he declined a special meal, but he was given the works. The standard death row meal of a medium rare steak, eggs over easy, hash brown, toast, milk, coffee and juice, butter and jelly. He did not eat a single bite. When asked why, his response was that he didn't choose it, talking about the meal.

Jim: And he was given a chance. Order whatever he wanted.

Woody: Even though he was given a chance and declined. 

Jim: That's right. So, an asshole to the end. 

Woody: Probably some of the trustee had a good meal that night. 

Jim: Yeah, no doubt about it. I ain't wasting his food. [laughs] 1994 [crosstalk] another famous serial killer by the name of John Wayne Gacy, who's also known as the Killer Clown, died of lethal injection. He was a serial killer who raped, tortured, and murdered 33 young men and boys. Of course, he buried them in a crawlspace. Now, his last meal, 12 deep fried shrimp, a bucket of KFC original recipe chicken. He didn't want spicy.

Woody: That’s the number one.

Jim: Only original, and French fries and a pound of strawberries. That sucker put down a meal. He wasn't nervous to go.

Woody: He wasn't worried about-- [crosstalk]

Jim: No. He's like, "I can eat. I ain't worried about it." 

Woody: All right, y'all, 1998, Jonathan Nobles from Texas died, they killed him by lethal injection. He was convicted of a double murder/stabbing of two women at their rented home in Austin, Texas, after consuming alcohol and drugs. Ironically, he had been employed by the Central Texas Crime Prevention Association of Round Rock. Y'all, Round Rock is just above Austin. After 12 years, he was executed. But during that time, he claimed that he had converted to Catholicism on death row, eventually becoming a lay preacher. People said he had no remorse and hadn't changed. His last meal, he requested the Holy Eucharist or communion for his last meal because he had found God. He had asked for seconds, but didn't receive them.

Jim: Asked for seconds.

[chuckles] 

Jim: "I want two crackers." 

[laughter] 

Woody: "Two wafers please."

Jim: Yeah. Wow. 

Woody: That's crazy. 

Jim: Okay, so in 2001, another very infamous inmate, Timothy McVeigh--

Woody: I remember when it happened.

Jim: I do too. Oklahoma City bombing died of lethal injection. Now, he was convicted of domestic terrorism and, of course, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, where he killed 168 people. 680 others were injured, and it destroyed half of the Alfred Murrah Federal Building. 

Woody: Y'all, in case you don't remember this, I actually watched this live on TV when they were doing recoveries. In that federal building, they had a daycare where you could bring your children if you worked in the building. So, 19 of his 168 victims were kids. In his last meal, he had two pints of mint chocolate ice cream.

Jim: That's it. Man.

Woody: [crosstalk] -that cools you off when you went to hell.

Jim: Yeah. In 2007, Philip Ray Workman died of lethal injection. He was convicted for a 1982 murder of a police officer following a robbery at a Wendy's restaurant in Memphis, Tennessee, and was sentenced to death by lethal injection in 2012. For his last meal, Workman didn't have a last meal request for himself. Instead, he asked for a large vegetarian pizza to be given to a homeless person. They denied that request, and Workman said, "Well, if you ain't going to do that, then I don't want anything. I'm going on a hunger strike." 

Jim: He's going to show them.

Woody: Yeah, he's going to show them. "I ain't going to eat nothing." That led to his outside followers to give away vegetarian pizzas to homeless like all over the place in Memphis, Tennessee. 

Woody: That’s crazy. Hunger strike before you kill me by lethal injection.

Jim: I don't think they cared.

Woody: In 2009, John Allen Mohammed from Baton Rouge, aka the DC Sniper died by lethal-- he didn't die. They killed him by lethal injection. State-sanctioned killing. Mohammed and a 17-year-old accomplice-- we all know that his stepson, accomplice gunned down 13 people in Washington DC and were responsible for another seven murders across the United States. His last meal was chicken and red sauce. I don't think I've ever had that combination, Jim. 

Jim: I don't either. 

Woody: And red sauce? 

Jim: I don't either. 

Woody: I don't get it.

Jim: Interesting, John Allen. In 2011, Lawrence Russell Brewer from Texas, who was a white supremacist, was one of three suspects convicted in the Jasper dragging death of a 49-year-old handicapped man by the name of James Byrd until he was decapitated. They actually drug him until he was decapitated.

Woody: Until ripped his head off.

Jim: Disgusting. Brewer is one of three men charged in one of the most gruesome racial crimes of the post-Civil Rights era. In the early morning in 1998, him and some folks basically picked up a black guy and drug him on a chain around his ankles for three miles until his head was torn off by the jagged edge of the roadside concrete culvert. 

Woody: [crosstalk] Like they were going to turn or something, his body went off, and the-- I watched the special. The culvert literally chopped his head off.

Jim: Here is the reason that Texas no longer allows special death row meals to be requested. His last meal, two chicken fried steaks with gravy and onions; one triple-patty bacon cheeseburger; an omelet with cheese, ground beef, tomatoes and onions, bell peppers and jalapenos; fried okra with ketchup and a pound of barbecue meat with a half loaf of white bread; three fajitas with all the fixings; a meat lover's pizza; a pint of Blue Bell ice cream and peanut butter fudge with crushed peanuts and three root beers. I kid y'all not.

So, Texas said, "Screw that. We're changing the law."

Woody: Right. I think he's the one that ordered that big extravagant meal and was like, "Fuck it, I'm not eating. The joke is on you."

Jim: That's right. So, get this. He ordered all of it and said, "I ain't eating none of it." That was the whole thing.

Woody: He just was trying to spend some of that Texas tax-

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: -payer money. Crazy. All right. In 2019, John Bill King was executed by lethal injection. It was John who started this gruesome chain of events. He offered Mr. Byrd a ride home, knowing he was a handicapped man since he had known him all of his life. Little did he know that it would be the last ride he ever took. King had just gotten out of prison where he said he had been repeatedly gangraped by black inmates, and that was his motive. He was convicted in the death of Byrd by beating him with a bat and then dragging him behind the pickup truck. King met Brewer anywhere else but a maximum-security prison where he was there for stealing. His last words were cryptic and more hurtful to BR. Whitmer called the post execution letter insensitive and perhaps even harmful to the family of Byrd. This man," talking about King, "was treated a lot better during his 20 years in prison than Mr. Byrd was," Whitmer said. Lawrence Brewer was executed in 2011 for his part in the killing. And the third man, Shawn Allen Berry, longtime friend of King, was sentenced to life in prison. So, y'all, we're all talking about Jasper, Texas, and the horrible case when they drug Mr. Byrd to his death.

Jim: In 2012, Gary the Butcher died of legal lethal injection, so he got convicted of rape and murder and decapitation of his victims. His last meal, he became quite gluttonous. He requested a pizza, Super Supreme Deep Dish, double portion with mushroom, onions, jalapenos and pepperoni. Another pizza with three different cheeses in it. Ten 8-ounce packs of parmesan cheese, ten 8-ounce packs of ranch dressing, a family-sized bag of Doritos. I mean, this dude went crazy. He got a super-size order of McDonald's fries.

Woody: Eight-ounce jalapenos, nachos, cheese. 

Jim: Two 20-ounce Cokes. Yeah, he went--

Woody: [crosstalk] -ounces of sliced jalapenos, two large strawberry shakes, two 20-ounce Cherry Cokes, one super-size McDonald's fries.

Jim: He would not--

Woody: Hey, I do like my McDonald's fries. With extra ketchup of mayonnaise and two pints of strawberry ice cream. His calories for that feast were 28,974. He ate one half of the ranch dressing and one half of Parmesan cheese.

Jim: There you go. 

Woody: All right. 

Jim: 2018, Edmund Zagorski died by electric chair. Zagorski requested the electric chair over death row. He was convicted for the murders of two men during a drug deal in 1983. He lured men into a wooded area under the pretense of selling them 100 pounds of weed before shooting them and slitting their throats.

Woody: This guy had a really refined-- what do you call that, a taste bud or a really refined palate. 

Jim: Yeah, he really did. His last meal was a jar of pickled pig feet and a pickled pigtail. 

Woody: [laughs] 

Jim: Thomas Grasso, in 1995, was executed by lethal injection in Oklahoma. Now, his last meal was two dozen steamed mussels, two dozen steamed clams, a double cheeseburger from Burger King, a half dozen barbecue spare ribs, two strawberry milkshakes, a half pumpkin pie with whipped cream with diced strawberries and a 16-ounce can of a spaghetti and meatballs served at room temperature. So, don't heat it up for him. Don't burn his mouth now. 

Woody: That's spaghetti and meatballs in a can. Nothing says last meal like spaghetti-

Jim: [crosstalk] That's right. 

Woody: -and meatballs in a can. They probably went to Dollar General Store and got the no-name brand. 

Jim: Yeah. Now, he strangled an elderly woman using her own Christmas lights, stole $8 from her purse, $4 from around the house, and sold her television for $125. He then murdered an elderly man and stole his Social Security check.

Woody: You know what? Fucking--[crosstalk]

Jim: I wouldn't have given him all that food. He sounds like a bitch, mean--

Woody: I definitely wouldn't have given him a Chef Boyardee [unintelligible [00:32:24] or whatever. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: So, Dennis Bagwell, his last meal with steak, fried chicken, barbecue ribs, fries, onion rings, bacon, a dozen scrambled eggs with onions, fried taters. That's their spelling, y'all, not mine. Fried taters with onions, sliced tomatoes, a salad with ranch dressing, two hamburgers with everything, peach pie, milk and coffee, and iced tea with real sugar. Now, Bagwell had invaded the home in Texas of Ronald Boone, who returned home to find the bodies of his wife, Leona, his daughter, Libby, and his granddaughters, Reba and Tassy. According to reports, McBee and Tassy had been beaten and strangled, necks broken, and Tassy was raped. Libby was shot in the head, and Reba's skull was crushed with a hammer and a metal exercise bar. Bagwell was linked to the crime by a bloody shoeprint found underneath Tassy Boone's body. Bagwell denied any involvement in the crime. His lawyers implicated Tassy's mother is the killer, but she established that she was in California at the time of the crime. He was linked to another murder two weeks prior. He threatened law enforcement, and he was arrested claiming innocence, then tried to buy drugs. He was addicted to cocaine. 

Jim: Imagine that. 

Woody: Oh, Dennis.

Jim: In 1999, Allen Lee Davis was executed in a botched execution by electrocution, [chuckles] crime of pedophilia, rape, and robbery. He was convicted for the murder of Nancy Weiler, who was three months pregnant in Jacksonville, Florida. She was beaten beyond recognition with a. 357 Magnum and hit more than 25 times about the face and head. He was additionally convicted of killing her two daughters who were nine years old and shot in the face, and Katherine, who was five years old, who was shot as she tried to run away. So, he's a piece of shit, basically.

He was executed by electrocution. His execution was considered botched with witnesses reporting that Davis was still alive after the powered Old Sparky was switched off. Blood had also leaked from his nose during the execution, although prison officials claim this was caused by a nosebleed. Controversy, regarding the nosebleed, he was on blood thinners for his health. Because of the controversy, Davis remains the last person executed by electric chair in Florida. Basically, there was a bunch of people up in arms around that and so they made him the last inmate until they worked that out.

Woody: They swapped over to lethal injection and Florida has carried out all of them by lethal injection, although inmates can still choose to be executed by electric chair. Karma is a bitch.

Jim: It is a bitch. Davis had prior convictions for armed robbery. He was just a piece of shit. Now, for his last meal, Davis requested and received a dinner consisting of one lobster tail, fried potatoes, a half a pound of fried shrimp, 6 ounces of fried clams, a half a loaf of garlic bread, and 32 ounce of A&W root beer. 

Woody: Crazy, bro. 

Jim: Yeah. First of all, I want to thank someone who helped us research this and that is-

Woody: Leah Marie.

Jim: The Leah Marie. Thank you very much. 

Woody: We love you, Leah. You are awesome.

Jim: You are awesome. We appreciate you. 

Woody: Super, super cool. Very interesting. We're going to do more on these in future. I think this being presented the way Leah helped us do it is fascinating. You get to hear the crimes. We're making jokes about the meals, and of course our hearts go out to the victims of these crimes and we're not making light of that. I find these last meals fascinating.

Jim: Yeah, I do too. We hope y'all enjoyed that just a little bit, constantly giving you different stuff around here and this is just a little bit different that. We hope y'all enjoyed. Now, we got a live event and you're getting this on Thursday. So, it's tomorrow.

Woody: Two live events. 

Jim: Two live events. Yeah, a live weekend. 

Woody: Friday and Saturday night. 

Jim: Friday and Saturday night. Sold out. Sold out.

Woody: Sold it your way. 

Jim: I cannot tell you the amount of people who have messaged me wanting tickets and I posted it a million times on Facebook that it was about to sell out. So, thanks all of y'all who purchased tickets. And all y'all who were interested, I'm sorry that there was none left, but I do appreciate everybody who's coming out to the Southeastern Livingston Center to see Bloody Angola Live, brought to you by Sporting Center.

Woody: That's going to be heck of a story. We'll do more lives in the future, y'all. This is inaugural.

Jim: Yeah, the inaugural. We do want to mention that there'll be food and drink on site. So, if you're coming, they'll have some of the best-- I saw the menu yesterday and it is absolute fire. Tommy over at Sombrero is going to have a massive food truck out there. We've got an awesome lady who's going to be throwing drinks left and right at people with a food truck, complete with beer, wine, mimosas, you name it. MajestiK Mimosa. 

Woody: Of course, we're going to have Bloody Angle swag. 

Jim: Oh, yeah. Got three different styles of t-shirts going to be available. We've got some of the event posters that we're signing and putting up for sale. We're even going to have some scripts that we've signed that we're going to-- original scripts now, that would be some great little collectible items for you. 

Woody: Right. Don't forget about the Bloody Angola wine.

Jim: Wine. [laughs]

Woody: It's good stuff, bro.

Jim: Yeah, it's good stuff.

Woody: $25 a bottle and we could sign it for you if you want. 

Jim: And this ain't no cheap crap, y'all. This is good wine. 

Woody: Yes. Everybody sends me pictures of the empty bottles of wine. They're saying, "Now, I need to get some more. Will you sign it for us?" We're like, "Hell, yeah. We'll sign it for you." 

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: And then, we signed it all day long and twice on Sunday. But the bottle, whatever type of wine-- 

Jim: Well, I'm going to tell you. You got a Fusion Red, which is-- what a Fusion Red is, it's a mixture between red and white zinfandel. You got that, so good. You've got a white wine and you also have what I would call a Rose.

Woody: Right. 

Jim: Some people call it Blush. 

Woody: And all delicious, but it has the Bloody Angola logo on it. We will be happy to sign them for you. $25 a bottle. But if you're a Patreon member, don't forget, one of the many perks we can give you is you get $5 off. Now, if it sounds like we're selling, well, we are.

[laughter]

Woody: We had to buy this stuff--[crosstalk]

Jim: Woody Everton is looking at me like, "We better not have nothing left." [laughs]

Woody: The $5 off. Hell, if you drink two bottles wine a month, you're-

Jim: Yeah. That's right. 

Woody: -paying for your tasting--[crosstalk]

Jim: Get that wine for $20 nowhere else in the world. So, yeah, just come on down to Bloody Angola Live. Obviously, you'll be there. You got tickets and we're going to meet with you after sign anything you want us to sign. We're going to have some great swag there. We even got some lighters, y'all, with Bloody Angola on them because Woody constantly says, "It's fire," after everything. So, we've got the first inaugural "It's fire" lighters that he'll be glad to sign for you if you'd like him to, or me or both of us.

Woody: If you don't get to make it to the event and you're interested in the swag or the merchandise, just hit us up. Especially the wine or even the shirts, things that we can order. You see people posting the pictures and you want it, hit us up.

Jim: Yeah. And then also, Patreon, first of all, thank you to all our Patreon teams.

Woody: Thank you. 

Jim: We have four or five teams now. We've got a Tie Down team, we've got a Chase team, we've got a Warden team, we've got a CERT team, and we're offering all kinds of new things on those, depending on which team you're on. I can tell you there's teams that have transcripts available. These transcripts are fire. It's like reading our episodes out of a book. These are full transcripts. Of course, there's an extreme cost to getting things transcribed properly, and I'm talking human transcription, y'all. You can't transcribe Woody's voice into an automatic transmission machine because it never comes out right. This is humans that are actually retyping this stuff. You bump up $5 a tier, you get that information. We're even giving quarterly swag out to our Warden tiers. Every quarter, you'll get a piece of swag that is-- I ain't just talking a bumper sticker or something like that. Some of this stuff is real good stuff. 

Woody: Good stuff. Y'all, this show is not free for us to produce or have our time and the research and everything else.

Jim: [crosstalk] 

Woody: Absolutely, Patreon members, thank you so much for your support. It really goes a long ways. If you can't be a Patreon member, we get it. If you like the show, please like it and subscribe and leave us a review.

Jim: And share it. 

Woody: Yeah. Share it. 

Jim: Every one of you.

Woody: Our growth is phenomenal. We're on the third season and we're blessed every day. 

Jim: Absolutely. 

Woody: And we're blessed because of y'all. We love and appreciate each, every one of y'all. 

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: Your host of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola-

Jim: A podcast 142 years in a making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Woody and Jim: Peace.

Jim: [chuckles]

Woody: Great one.

Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433 with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton. 

[Bloody Angola theme playing]

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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We continue to blow your mind with some of the most Brazen prison escape stories of all time!

Timestamps

04:21 Japanese Prisoner Escapes: Yoshi Shiatori

05:23 Prison Break in Fort San Cristobal

06:55 Penal Colonies and Escapes

07:06 Escape-Proof Camp: Colditz Castle

08:52 Escape of French Resistance Fighter: Andre Devigny

15:13 Acre Prison Break: Jewish Underground Groups

19:56 Serial Killer Escape: Monroe Hickson

21:17 Escape from Alcatraz

22:09 Alcatraz Escape Continues

25:05 Monroe Hickson's Fate Revealed

29:40 Escape and Recapture of Thomas Knight

30:44 Escape of Drug Smuggler: Billy Hayes

32:45 Escape from Puente Caritas Penitentiary

34:24 Helicopter Escape from Mountjoy Prison

36:49 Escapes of Serial Killer Carlton Gary

36:56 Carlton Gary's Capture and Execution

38:59 Escape and Capture of James Robert Jones

39:16 Ted Bundy's Christmas Escape

40:39 Prisoner Mentality and Escapes

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Woody and Jim into the history of the electric chair, discussing various executions that took place in the past. William Kemmler's execution in New York in 1890 marked the first time the electric chair was used, aiming to replace the gruesome public hangings of the time. The podcast highlights the mishaps that occurred during electrocutions, such as William Taylor's legs ripping off during the process. It also explores how Louisiana transitioned from hangings to using the electric chair in 1940 and eventually to lethal injection in 1991.

Additionally, we want to acknowledge the support of Lori Johnson, a Louisiana community figure participating in a fundraising event for the Big Buddy Program. If you would like contribute to the cause and show support for Lori, we provide her specific link below.

https://dancingforbigbuddy.com/dancer/lori-johnson/?fbclid=IwAR0aHVAqaX_u_kCMjAn4mw_7E1eY5MXNUifV8mpKfHEdkT2VCmbJaEtHgig

Timestamps

0:03:57 The History of the Electric Chair

0:06:49 Public Executions and the Shift to Electric Chair

0:14:19 Transition to Electric Chair in Louisiana

0:15:31 Introduction of Portable Electric Chair in Louisiana

0:19:44 Increase in Louisiana Executions via Electric Chair

0:28:05 History of Executioners in the US and Bloody Angola

0:29:30 Exploring Alternate Forms of Execution

0:33:11 Reflections on the Justice System and Executions

0:35:22 Shout-Out to Lori Johnson's Fundraiser

0:37:24 Wrapping Up and Rodeo Plans

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As our last official swap we brought back a Real Life Real Crime favorite for those that may have not yet heard it!

False Positive parts 1 and 2 have been combined into a "Supersized' episode of Bloody Angola! 

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When they needed a confession from the real “Dead Man Walking” …They Called “Duck”.

Check out this once in a lifetime in studio interview with Donald “Duck” Sharp who performed the interrogation and gained the confessions from Robert Willie and Joe Vaccaro sending Willie to the death chamber.

#deadmanwalking #duck #robertwillie #podcasts #truecrime #bloodyangola #JosephVaccaro

GET 50% OFF PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!

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Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!

www.Hellofresh.com/BloodyAngola50

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Woody Overton AND Jim Chapman lay out the details when prisoners incarcerated at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola die. 

What is the funeral procession like....Do family members claim the bodies...where and how are they buried? 

Answers to all this and more on this 5th episode of Season 3 titled Dying in Prison.

#BloodyAngolaPodcast #Dyinginprison #Podcast #Podcasts #truecrime #prison #convict

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

BLOODY ANGOLA: A PODCAST BY WOODY OVERTON AND JIM CHAPMAN (DYING IN PRISON)

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Bloody-

Woody: -Angola. 

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. 

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. 

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: And we're going to talk to y'all about some amazing programs that take place in Angola today. It's going to be a little different episode. No murder stuff going on today.

Woody: Right. Well, it's got a lot of death in it. 

Jim: It sure does. [laughs] 

Woody: Not necessarily murder. Some of them, I'm sure, were murders that occurred inside the wire. 

Jim: That's a great point. 

Woody: But ultimately none of us are getting out of this life alive.

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: Always talk about almost 6000 inmates and how 80% of them are going to die inside the wire. Well, think about that, y'all. If you get sentenced to life Angola, let's say you're 20 years old and you're going to have family members and they care about you and love you and all that stuff. But over the years, what happens? Your mom and your daddy are going to die. Your grandparents are going to die. Your siblings are going to have lives of their own and life goes on. We've heard so many times that the inmates say everybody forgets about them. If you live another 50 years in Angola, then really you don't have anybody to care about you on the outside anymore but the people that you're locked up with basically become your family and your best friends.

Jim: That's right. A lot of these people or probably the vast majority are locked up for things that are just horrific, and you don't end up in Angola for life if you were an altar boy. In a lot of cases, family maybe turned their backs on them and was the black sheep of that family or whatever and they don't have anybody to pay those respects at the end of their life and so they get buried at Angola in the prison. We're going to go into of that information. 

Point Lookout Cemetery is the prison cemetery in Angola. It's located on the north side of Angola. It's at the base of the Tunica Hills. This is obviously a situation where what we just told you about, family members are also deceased or there's just no family members that want anything to do with them. 

Woody: Or maybe they don't have the financial means to come and claim the body when the inmate dies. So, they're forgotten about. But Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate of any US state and of course, sentencing is extremely harsh. But at Angola, 73% of the 6250 inmates are serving sentences of life without parole. The average sentence for the remaining 27% that aren't serving life without is still 90.9 years.

Jim: Pretty much alive.

Woody: Right. Prisoners aren't even sent to Angola unless they're sentence is over 50 years. Y'all, I believe that's more likely 80 years, like I said in the past. Basically, the result of this is with sentences of this length, most inmates lose touch with the family members and there's no one to collect the remains when they die. 

Jim: This prison has been around a long time. Go back and listen to The Walls and how Angola got started, but Angola has been around forever.

Woody: 140 some years.

Jim: 142 years in the making, if you want to get specific. During that time, they did have another cemetery. Woody's going to give you a little heads-up on what happened with that.

Woody: Well, the first Angola cemetery got destroyed by a flood in 1927. Now, y'all remember, Angola is surrounded by the Mississippi River on three sides, and every few years, it grows outside of this bank and floods everything. But in 1927, when the flood happened and the water receded, the remains and caskets were found along the levee, and it was impossible to identify anyone. The bodies were reburied in a mass grave in a new cemetery called Point Lookout. It was about two acres, but it was full by the mid 1990s. It contained 331 marked graves and an unknown number of people in the mass grave. An annex, Point Lookout 2, is now in use, and it has a capacity of 700 plots. Approximately 100 of those graves now have been filled, and with the aging inmate population, it will likely max out-

Jim and Woody: Near future. 

Woody: In the past, convicts were buried basically in cardboard boxes, y'all. And today, thanks to Warden Cain, the deceased are buried in coffins made at the prison woodshops by an inmate master carpenter. That's his only job, y'all. These handmade caskets are constructed with brown stained birch and pine. It takes about a week to make just one. Other inmates make the shrouds for the coffins. I want to read you a quote of what Burl Cain said. He said, "Once a man dies, his sentence is complete, and there should be dignity in the passing," Warden Burl Cain.

Jim: There you go. You've heard us mention Warden Burl Cain before, and I can't wait to be in the future we're going to do an episode centered completely around Warden Cain, because like every other human being in the world, he had faults in his life, but be hard pressed to find a more respected warden than Warden Cain, and I'm talking nationally. This guy is well known to people that aren't even in the prison circles. So, that tells you who he was, absolutely-- and still alive today and runs the Mississippi Correctional-- the entire correctional system for the state of Mississippi. So, I don't mean to talk as if he's not with us anymore. 

Woody: Y'all, I've known him for over 30 years. I've worked for him at Dixon Correctional Institute. He is a very religious man, but he's a nonsense man. But he actually cares about the prisoners, as strange as that sounds. He cares about them and he wants to give them dignity, even in death. 

Jim: Yes. 

Woody: He was very instrumental in bringing all the changes to Angola, from healthcare to prison inmate programs and give them hope and stuff like that. But he specifically cares about them in death. And even the executions, he stands with them he eats their last meal-- or he used to when he was in Angola. He would eat the last meal with them, whatever they chose. He was there with them when they took the last breath.

Jim: 100%. I'll tell you a quick story about how Burl Cain transformed not only the caskets themselves, but the entire process of conducting a funeral for these Angola inmates. When he was in his first year at Angola, they had a burial for one of the prisoners that he attended. At that burial, they were lowering the prisoner into the ground. At this time, they were essentially crates with cardboard--

Woody: Basically, like a cardboard box. A big, long cardboard box that holds the body.

Jim: They're lowering this inmate down and the bottom fell out of the cardboard box. If that wasn't bad enough, as they started piling dirt on, the top end of the cardboard casket collapsed. In Burl Cain's eyes, this has got to change. It was a total loss of dignity.

Woody: Right, dignity there.

Jim: At that point, he seeked out who was considered the best carpenter in Angola, talked to him and said, "Look, we want you to head this new program where we're going to build caskets for the prisoners." The guy was more than willing to do it, obviously. And off they went with the casket building that has become world renowned. We'll tell you later about some people you may have heard of that have actually been buried in caskets built by prisoners of Angola.

Woody: Right. Now, think about this, y'all. Everybody gets sentenced to Angola-- well, I can't say everybody, but a lot of them have certain crafts that they're masters of before they went in. This guy was a master carpenter. I mean, you have electricians, you have lawyers, you have doctors, you have painters, whatever. Burl sought out the best carpenter. I know they have a lot of them, but he sought out the best carpenter to make these caskets. Now, I know we're going to talk about more in detail but think about how much a casket costs. It costs you like $7000, $8,000 for a general casket for a funeral now, but think about how much it would cost you to have a hand crafted-

Jim: Custom made.

Woody: -custom-made, just beautiful piece of artwork so you can go to eternal rest in it.

Jim: 100%. And he also instituted some other programs.

Woody: In 1998, Burl, the funeral process, just taking a casket out there, even though it was hand built and all that in the back of a pickup truck, that still is not like a funeral procession. So, in 1998, he had inmates build a black horse-drawn hearse modeled after an 1800s vintage funeral coach for use during the burial rites. Now, this hearse is a beautiful piece of artwork in itself, and it's pulled by two large white Percheron horses. The hearse is driven by an inmate dressed in black tailcoat and a black high hat, which are also made in Angola in the sewing shop. And six pallbearer follow the coach on the road to the cemetery and assist with the burial. Inmate ministers conduct a service, and the living, traditionally sinned, they're departed away with acapella rendition, "Praise the Lord, I'm free. No longer bound. No more chains holding me. My soul is resting. It's just a blessing. Praise the Lord. Hallelujah. I am free." 

Jim: Yeah, it's a sight to be seen, really, these horse-drawn carriages, and so much respect is put into that. You may ask yourself, we're talking here about two cemeteries now that have been built since the one in 1927 flooded, and why is that such an issue? Well, to tell you a little bit about the issues, not only with Angola, but any prison in the country, most likely that's a maximum-security prison, is most people that are sent there, it's horrific crimes that they're going to spend a lot of their life, if not the majority, if not all of their life there. And it's caused a problem. The rise in lengthy mandatory sentences that have really come along as of late has caused a big boom in lifers in prison. As a matter of fact, there's about 2.1 million lifers in the United States right now, compared to about 500,000 in 1980.

Woody: Let me tell you this, Jim. In 1991, when I was studying criminal justice at Southeastern, the incarceration rate for the whole United States was only like 700,000 people. Now, there's millions. We do lead the world in locking people up, and a large percent of that are people who are going to die of prison.

Jim: Yeah, so it has caused quite an issue when it comes to what do you do with these people when they die? Not everybody gets cremated. Some may choose to get cremated, but a lot of inmates now, because the healthcare is so much better in the prison systems than it used to be, they're living a while, 70, 80 years old, and then they die from natural causes. As a matter of fact, that has risen over 40%, the death from natural causes in the last 10 years. That's why they're having to add to these graveyards and all of that. I would imagine family isn't what it used to be with collecting-- I don't know if the right term is collecting these prisoners after their death but claiming the bodies. 

Woody: Again, they're down for so long, people die. Their family members die, or they just lose touch. Or, like you said, they don't want to have anything to do with them. Well, then the burden falls back on the state. Now, certainly they could just bury them in the mass grave. There's no rules on that, no laws on it. They don't have to do anything. They could just cremate everyone if they wanted to. But Burl Cain took it to the next level.

Jim: Yeah, he really did. Just another thing on Burl Cain now that we've mentioned him, is Burl Cain was also kind of a businessman in Angola. What I mean by that is he watched the dollars and cents and all of that really was an important part of how you ran a prison. One thing he figured out early on was that these flimsy cardboard crates, essentially, that they were burying these prisoners in, it was costing anywhere from $650 to $900 a piece to bury these guys. Well, he figured out, and he went to that carpenter that we mentioned earlier, and he said, "Look, what about $250, you think you can make a--?" The guy said, "Yeah, I can make one." And he wasn't paying the prisoner $250. He was saying how much would it cost for the wood and the nails and things like that. It came up to be an average cost of about $250. So, not only did he give them a more dignified, beautiful coffin that was handmade around their specifications, but he also saved about $400 a burial in the process.

Woody: That's crazy. Anyhow, Burl was a big champion of making Angola as self-reliant and I guess you call it self-producing, as you can, everything from the vegetables in the field to making license plates to whatever. Try to make it where it pays for itself. 

Jim: That's right. Another reason why prisoners, convicts loved Warden Cain was when you do things like that, that's a respect thing with them. And it's obvious that Cain respected them. 

Woody: Probably, respect is something they never got in their entire lives.

Jim: Yeah, right. So, very beloved, beloved warden of Angola and still active today in the system. Now, another thing that we want to bring up with regard to the burials is the process of taking care of these guys before they die. Now, there's hospice. If you're a free person, you have hospice when you get cancer at some point, or Alzheimer's or all these things, but you're not immune to that in prison.

Woody: That's right. Certainly, prisoners get cancer or-

Jim: Alzheimer's. 

Woody: -Alzheimer's, every type of disease that free people get. I mean, it's there.

Jim: You may be surprised to know that Angola has probably the top hospice center in the country, relative to the prison system.

Woody: The majority of that care is given by other inmates to the dying inmates. So, there's a respect thing there. Certainly, they become attached to the people who are dying even if they didn't know them throughout their prison career.

Jim: That's exactly right. That was another brainstorm by Warden Cain, and that was to start a hospice care system. He already had a treatment center there, a medical center for your obvious injuries that you get every day in prison. Whether you getting shanked or-- [chuckles] 

Woody: Back in the old episodes when they say broken backs and stuff. 

Jim: Yeah, you're getting the bat applied to you. They had a treatment center and they realized that one thing they lacked was a hospice center, especially as cancer became more prevalent and Alzheimer's really reared its ugly head. You were having to deal with these inmates in a totally different way. 

Woody: Basically, like we said, the average lifespan inmate grew tremendously.

Jim: Tremendously.

Woody: As long you live, certainly the higher percentage chance that you're going to contract some type of disease or illness.

Jim: Yeah, 100%. He did what he does, and he went to his inmate trustees, and he said he needed volunteers for a hospice unit to assist the medical staff there, and tons of these trustees volunteered. This was something to them that was an honor to get involved with. Actually, they had seminars for weeks and weeks on how to deal with hospice patients. So, you have these inmates that are in Angola maybe serving life themselves for murder and they were taking care of these cancer patients.

Woody: And probably some of the best trained hospice caregivers in the world.

Jim: There's no doubt. And he didn't stop there. He even went as far as to have sessions that were devoted to managing like personal stress and working through the bereavement process with families because you've got to remember, some of these inmates still had families that visited them every visit day. They were going to miss this person when they died. They're going through cancer or whatever it is. So, they actually even had certification classes on how to deal with family members. So, you would have these convicts actually counseling the family--[crosstalk] 

Woody: They're basically the grief counselors. 

Jim: Yeah, exactly. 

Woody: Seven stages of grief. 

Jim: 100%. One of the most well-known hospice care individuals was Wilbert Rideau who is the--

Woody: Award winning--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Angolite editor. Yeah, just an amazing writer and very, very well known in Angola and all of that. One thing that we definitely wanted to impress on today is the care that Angola takes with that population. It is their own little world there, even down to their burials, even down to the hospice care treatment that they receive. You would never think, you would think these guys get Alzheimer's and they're just in their cell, not knowing who they are anymore. But very similar to what you would get-- not quite the facilities and things that you would get on the outside, but state of the art for prison.

Woody: Right. Certainly, the care level, the respect given to them, they could just lock them away and let them die, like you said, in a cell, but they didn't do that.

Jim: Yeah. An interesting stat for you to chart down in your mental brain is just last year, nearly three times as many inmates died at Angola as made parole. 

Woody: Really? 

Jim: Three out of four died in Angola. So, you've got to bury those folks or cremate them or whatever. I don't know really who gets a-- I would imagine the convict gets a choice of whether they want to be buried or cremated. If anybody knows out there, maybe comment, let us know. That would be interesting.

Now, one recent trend is in the favor of building geriatric prisons, where actually it's a prison centered only for older prisoners. They've even had, Woody, some recent success, and this is nationwide, not just Angola, but if you're a prisoner, you're 85, you get Alzheimer's, they slap an ankle bracelet on you and let you go home. I don't know what everybody's feeling, all the listeners feeling would be on that. But if they're considered absolutely no risk anymore to society and they're six months away from death--

Woody: And confined to wheelchairs and mentally, they're gone and stuff like that, it would be much cheaper for the state to-

Jim: Bingo.

Woody: -let them go. Not let them go because certainly they'll be monitored to a certain extent, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than housing and paying for the medical care yourself.

Jim: You just to hit the nail on the head. You're exactly right. It costs about $3,200 a year for ankle bracelet to be applied to a geriatric prisoner, versus over $10,000 a year it would cost to house one. So, if it's someone who had psychological and emotional damage, basically to where they had like Alzheimer's and they're no harm to society--

Woody: I mean, you can monitor them. 

Jim: Eighty-five-year-old guy--

Woody: And electronically monitored. If they go outside their geofencing area-- which you're 85, I doubt that's going to happen. But if they do, then probation, parole gets alerted, they can go check in on them. 

Jim: Yeah. Another interesting stat for you that you may want to write down as well, and this is from 2011. But in 2011, which is the last time this stat was released that I could find, state and federal prisons were housing approximately 100,000 inmates over the age of 55.

Woody: Hell, I'm almost that old.

[laughter]

Jim: And you're still in the free world, Woody Overton.

Woody: [crosstalk] every day. 

Jim: [laughs] That's right. So, that was some really interesting stuff. From there, Angola's got this state-of-the-art hospice system. They've got these caskets that are just absolutely beautiful that you may at least consider a dignified burial if you're a convict. There's some pretty well-known people that have been buried in these, one of those being Billy Cannon.

Woody: Right. 

Jim: We talked about him. 

Woody: First one to ever win the Heisman for LSU and would spend his career at Angola. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: Helping inmates.

Jim: Helping inmates. He was a dentist by trade. Eventually, he led up the entire medical department at Angola because he was such a leader. When he passed away, he requested, and it was one of his dying wishes that he be buried in a casket built by the Angola inmates. So, not only were they totally honored to do that for him, meaning the convicts, but they also paid for it, out of their own money.

Woody: That's right. Their own inmate fund. And, y'all, that casket was seen by thousands of people at the memorial service.

Jim: Yeah. Of course, Billy Cannon being buried at what's known as the PMAC-- Well, that wasn't where he's buried, but where his visitation was at the PMAC and the only person I'm familiar with that had a visitation at the PMAC. 

Woody: I've never heard of that before. 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: Probably tens of thousands that came to pay their respects, and every one of them saw the casket that was built by and paid for by convicts.

Jim: That's right. We'll tell you about another famous individual that was also buried in an Angola casket that was built by convicts, and that was the Reverend Billy Graham. 

Woody: That's crazy to think about. 

Jim: It's unbelievable. I'm going to tell you the story of how that came about. But first, I don't even want to say, for those of you that aren't familiar with the Reverend Billy Graham because I can't imagine one person that's never heard of-- [crosstalk]  

Woody: I'm pretty sure Billy Graham had a straight line to heaven.

Jim: I'm going to tell you what, he was an amazing, amazing person that I didn't know personally, obviously, but just following his life, and this is a man that could have as many millions as he wanted.

Woody: Oh, yeah. He could have been Jimmy Swaggart and built colleges and everything else, but he just-- 

Jim: Lived in a small house pretty much. 

Woody: Right. He's a humble man and dedicated his life to God.

Jim: That's right. And you know he's not from Louisiana. You may wonder, "Well, how the heck did Billy Graham end up in a casket by Angola inmates?" Well, his son actually visited Angola. His name is Franklin Graham. As he was touring Angola, he ended up in the Casket Room, is what they call it, where they're building these caskets. And he was absolutely blown away. Could not believe what he saw. Thought it was the most beautiful caskets ever made. On the spot, he asked the casket maker, "I would like to order two of these," and this is going to sound morbid, "One for my mom and one for my dad," and they were still alive, but he was so blown away from him. He's like, "I want to go ahead, I'll pay for them right now. And when they pass away, we won't have to worry about caskets or picking anything out. I want something simple. My dad would love this."

Woody: Right. That's something that as a son, I can respect that because you can go to any funeral parlor and buy some mass-made-type whatever casket. But he saw the care and the ornate woodwork and the love that was put in this casket making, and he was like, "I want that for my mom and dad." That tells you what kind of awesomeness these caskets are.

Jim: Yeah. Set your eyes on them, just blow you away. The simplicity and beauty. 

Woody: I'm pretty sure Billy Graham could have got any free casket from anybody in the world. 

Jim: In the world. He could have got a gold casket. 

Woody: He could have got a solid gold casket, yeah. But he wanted or his son wanted him to have caskets built in Angola. 

Jim: Yeah. So he did. He went home and of course told his mom and dad about this. His dad thought it was the most beautiful gesture ever because it fit him perfectly. It fit his wife, Ruth, perfectly. These are simple, stained, beautiful caskets that have a cross, basically formed into them on the top. There's nothing that you would look at and it would be, "Oh, look at the shiny gold," or look at the--

Woody: The brass.

Jim: Simple beauty. 

Woody: Yeah. 

Jim: No brass on the side. It's all made of wood and handcrafted and lathed and sanded just to this almost ice-skating rink. 

Woody: I want to know how many hours go into building one.

Jim: Well, they say that the casket maker spends eight hours a day and it takes about a week for each one. So, you're talking about--

Woody: 40 plus hours.

Jim: Solid working.

Woody: Right. 

Jim: To make one of these beautiful caskets. Of course, Billy Graham had a very full life and a very long life, a blessed life. He lived actually to the age of 99, y'all.

Woody: That is crazy.

Jim: 99 years old. He died and was laid to rest after lying in state for two days on the US Capitol rotunda.

Woody: Wow. Talk about Billy Cannon's casket getting being seen, president saw Billy Graham's and all congressmen and senators and everybody else. Two days laying in state.

Jim: Two days laying in state. [crosstalk] Millions of people, because it was televised. 

Woody: Televised, that's right. So, if you saw Billy Graham laying in the state, you saw an Angola casket. 

Jim: That's exactly right. Another interesting thing about Franklin Graham, when he went to Angola, he was really blown away by the history, much like you and me, Woody. He loved history, and apparently prison history, but especially as it relates to religion. In Angola, as we've talked about, you probably don't have more churches on a prison than Angola. A lot of that, again, credit to Burl Cain, who really is credited with bringing religion to Angola. When Franklin Graham visited, he noticed everything from the beauty of the pews in these churches inside Angola and all the woodwork, which obviously goes into building a casket as well. He even noticed the steeple for one of the churches was one of these high-up steeples. From death row, if you looked out of one of the windows in death row, it would be directly in front of the steeple. And that was never necessarily intended. It just kind of worked out that way. 

Woody: Isn't that amazing?

Jim: Yeah. It was the perfect placement for that steeple because as you look out that window, the way he described it is all you saw was a cross.

Woody: Right.

Jim: Pretty powerful stuff. So, he was very touched by Angola, and obviously that is evidenced in the fact that he purchased the caskets for his parents from Angola. But what a story that is. We always want to bring you something different on Bloody Angola, and that's something that's different and unique about it.

Woody: Jim and I are going to go to Angola, and everything we're talking about, and we'll be able to bring you more information on it as we see with our own two eyes, right?

Jim: Yeah. We're not going to tell you exactly when we're going, but we're going to do an episode. [chuckles] 

Woody: Security. 

Jim: We're not going to tell you, but when we get back from that trip, we're going to give you an episode centered around our trip. We're going to tell y'all about it. It's going to be an episode just on everything we did and who showed us around, what we learned, what we saw.

Woody: I can assure you, we're going to the casket shop. [crosstalk] 

Jim: Absolutely.

Woody: The place where they build the caskets, and Point Lookout Cemetery. I want to stand there. 

Jim: I want to see everything. We'll see everything. So, look for that episode soon. I want to give you another little quick story, I thought y'all might find this interesting. We've been talking about prison cemeteries today, obviously, with Angola, and I thought it'd be kind of cool to tell one from something away from Angola, but definitely very historical and definitely a prison cemetery. I want to tell you about one in Yuma, Arizona, and you might be familiar with Yuma. Old West times, right?

Woody: Right. 

Jim: Six shooters, pow. 

[chuckles] 

Jim: Yeah, draw it. 

Woody: 3:10 to Yuma. Have you seen that?

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: That's a good movie. 

Jim: I've seen that. You may wonder back in those days, did they have prison cemeteries? And they absolutely did. I'm going to tell you about this one in Yuma. There were a total of about 111 prisoner deaths that occurred within that prison. This is during kind of the Wild West times, y'all. A total of 104 of those persons were buried at the cemetery in Yuma. So, the bodies of the other seven prisoners, those got claimed by the family. Think about that, y'all. Out of 111 prisoners, 104 of them, nobody wanted back or they didn't even realize they were dead or where they were. I mean, this is Wild West times.

Woody: It wasn't like that, social media. [crosstalk] 

Jim: Yeah, they don't have emails. 

Woody: You don't get your loved one. 

Jim: That's right. I mean, it was literally Pony Express back then if you find anything else. I'm going to tell you about a guy named Pete Devereaux. Pete Devereaux was a convict that on his way to Yuma, tried to escape by jumping off the train. He was going to Yuma prison, he couldn't deal with it, jumped off the train, hit his head on a rock on the way down and died.

Woody: That hurt.

Jim: Yeah. That was the 112th death that you won't hear about from Yuma. But only one female died in prison, and her name was Pearl Iker. There's not a whole lot of research on her. But people do wonder about, "Didn't females commit crimes in those days?" Yes, they did, but only one on record died in prison.

Woody: Only Jim Chapman can find this, y'all.

Jim: [chuckles] I'm telling you, I was digging. Now, burials were simple and quick, so I did. I was wondering about burials. A shallow grave was dug where a wooden casket containing the body was lowered. They would cover that with dirt and overlay it with rocks. They didn't have like the crosses.

Woody: Keep the--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Yeah, which incidentally, at Angola's cemetery, they do have the cement crosses for every prisoner that marks where their grave is. So, you may wonder what some of these prisoners died from, and this may or may not surprise you, but the majority of those prisoners died from tuberculosis.

Woody: Really?

Jim: Yeah. Wyatt Earp. He wasn't a prisoner, but he died-- at least that's what Tombstone, my favorite movie--

Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] in Colorado cemetery. 

Jim: I'm your I'm Your Huckleberry. 

Woody: [crosstalk] - I'm Your Huckleberry.

Jim: Johnny Ringo. I love that movie, y'all. But 46 prisoners died of tuberculosis, which is known as consumption. They used to blame it on drinking alcohol. 

Woody: Really? 

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: When I worked for Department of Corrections, I had to get TB tested. What they do is they give you like a shot in your arm and you have to come back a couple of days later. If you have a bump, guess what? You got the TB. TB is a very real thing in prison to this day.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: You think about COVID, but TB is the original COVID, I would guess.

Jim: That's right. My wife has to get a TB shot every year because she works at a hospital, and they take a chance of coming in contact with people with tuberculosis. So, they have to get checked for that every year and get, I guess, vaccinated or whatever for it.

Interesting thing is they figured out over time that tuberculosis was not caused by alcohol and they figured out it was more caused by people living in close quarters like you're speaking of, a prison. 

Woody: Right. If you think it's not caused by alcohol, probably [crosstalk] living in the wrong time, y'all. 

[laughter] 

Jim: So, they figured that out. Of course, one of the ways that they figured that out, so if y'all were ever wondering how they discovered tuberculosis was people in close quarters, it was the majority of people that were getting it were locked up in prisons, and they were like, "Wait a minute, there's some commonality here." In Yuma Prison, 46 of them, that's what they died in. Most of the grave markers at Yuma prison, they remained intact until about 1950. Since then, all of them were kind of taken by souvenir hunters. Think about it, you see a gravestone that says "Yuma" on it, these souvenir hunters would steal them. A lot of them just deteriorated over time. I mean, 100 years, that's a pretty old cement back in those days. They were typically made from either cement, like we just mentioned, or sometimes slabs of wood. It would just be wood that was burned and with, "Here lies--"

Woody: Johnny Joe. 

Jim: "Johnny Joe. He fell and stumped his toes." 

[laughter] 

Woody: Something like that. "And he'd be here no mo."

Jim: "And he'd be here no mo." I'm telling you, y'all, that's how they used to mark them things. 

Woody: Those probably got taken. Johnny Joe's probably got taken--[crosstalk] 

Jim: No doubt about it. Actually, they would mark at Yuma specifically the prisoner's name, number, and the date of death. So, they wouldn't even have the birth on there. 

Woody: I'm pretty sure that there is no theft of headstones from Angola from Point Lookout [crosstalk] being that's inside the wire. 

Jim: [laughs] Yeah. Ain't nobody looking to take that route. They might end up in there.

Woody: [crosstalk] 

[laughter] 

Woody: Grave robbery is still a very big thing to this day. 

Jim: Oh, it's huge. 

Woody: Don't bury me with any-- I don't wear jewelry anyway, but if I had it, I don't want to be buried. Thank God I don't have any gold teeth. Yeah, that's good. What kind of sick bastard does it take to dig up a grave? 

Jim: I'm going to tell you, and then to take a gold tooth-- I mean, some of these people probably buried with nice watches and wedding rings, but I mean, you've got to be the one [crosstalk] right? 

Woody: It's not like you know what's in there. It's a potluck. You're going around in the middle of the night digging up graves, hoping you'd find a gold tooth. Bro, get a job. [laughs] 

Jim: Yeah, get a job, man. What are you doing?

Woody: Grave robber.

Jim: Grave robber. I'll tell you what, speaking of that, Woody, in Denham Springs, they had a situation where they just destroyed about 10, I guess it's headstones that sit up on the graveyard here and just tipped them over, broke them, a vandal. I'm like, "Man--"

Woody: What a disrespect.

Jim: "Bruh, you got problems." 

Woody: Yeah, I worked a case, it just popped in my mind. It was in Tangipahoa Parish where the family members kept going out and putting flowers and little mementos on the graves, and they always come up missing. They tracked it back to a lady probably about my age, in her mid-50s, and she would go out there and steal the items off the graves, and she was a hoarder. She had them all stashed in her house.

Jim: Oh, my gosh.

Woody: That's probably a mental illness there. 

Jim: Yeah, there's got to be. So, you may wonder, can you visit the Yuma cemetery to this day? The territorial prison cemetery they called it? You can. It's on South Levee Road in Yuma, Arizona. So, if you're in the Yuma area- [chuckles] 

Woody: Go check it out. 

Jim: -go check it out. You can also visit the Angola cemetery at certain times. You'll have to get in touch with Angola to find out when or when we get back, we'll tell you, how about that? So, we appreciate y'all listening. We want to bring you something this week. It's been a busy week for Woody Overton. He has on Friday, which would be tomorrow, the Real Life Real Crime Krewe Bash.

Woody: Starts, right? 

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: Friday night, VIP event. Saturday night, the main event. And the tickets are on sale eventbrite.com for both. You can do one or both nights. You can just go to the VIP Friday night event, which we're having a huge auction for LOPA, or you can buy the tickets for both nights through the VIP. Or you can just buy Saturday night event.

Jim: Let's go through it real quick. On the Friday night, what do we have going on?

Woody: Friday night, I'm going to go in and take pictures and sign autographs with everybody that's there. We got Lifers already from all over the United States. A lot of them take this like a vacation week and come to South Louisiana and hang out, and it culminates with the Krewe Bash. But Friday night, it's more of an intimate setting, a couple of hundred people, and I get to spend time with everybody, and we drink. And then, we have so many donations that people donate everything from diamond necklaces and the earrings to cooking pots to [unintelligible [00:45:53] to whatever. 

Jim: Tons of stuff, y'all.

Woody: iPads and iWatches and all this stuff. I'm going to get on the stage later on in the night after we had quite a few-- oh, including two hog hunts being auctioned off with me, yours truly, where you come stay at my place. Now last year when I was on stage, I had a little bit to drink, and somebody said I should auction off a hog hunt. Then, the money started going and up and he got up in the thousands and I said, "Hell, for that much you can sleep with me." I didn't mean with me, I mean in my house. 

[laughter] 

Woody: That's going to go on. And even Chase Tyler is going to be there. The two-time Louisiana Country Music Hall and Fame and [unintelligible [00:46:39].

Jim: One of my favorites. 

Woody: Hanging out as a fan with his wife. If you want to meet him, he'll be there. It's just going to be a blowout chill time, Friday night, intimate gathering. Because Saturday night, the Krewe Bash, it's going to be packed. I'm going to take the stage and do a live, never-before-heard interactive adult podcast. If you've been to the Krewe Bash before, you know what that means. You know what it means on Sunday morning when you hit-- [crosstalk] More importantly, we're celebrating justice for Courtney Coco.

Jim: Amen.

Woody: And the conviction of David Anthony Burns after 18 years for her murder. The cold case we solved on Real Life Real Crime. We're celebrating all the awards we won this year, the podcast awards. My 53rd birthday will be at midnight, and Chase Tyler is going to play. Chase Tyler band is going to rock after I get done with my show.

But we also-- when I get down with the show and you'll be on the stage with me, brother, because you've done it again, we're doing our big raffle draw for LOPA, Louisiana Organ Procurement Human Agency. We've raised a lot of money for them in the last couple of years. I'm hoping to do that again this year, but we're going to have the drawings for all the big prizes and Local Leaders podcast is one of the donors, one of the many. And it's just going to be fire.

Jim: Look, it really is. I've been to every one of the Krewe Bash, and I can tell you, number one, prepare your liver.

[laughter]

Jim: Drink plenty of water before and after, even in between. 

Woody: Now, they got this hydration packets.

Jim: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Woody: Liquid I.V. 

Jim: Liquid I.V. That's right. 

Woody: Y'all should sponsor us. 

Jim: Yeah, [chuckles] that's right. That's a free plug for them. I'll tell you, it is an absolute blast. You're there with nothing but true crime fans, which is--

Woody: It's like our family. Everybody's chill. Everybody's there to party and have a good time. 

Jim: And it is. It's a great time amongst the hundreds and hundreds of your best friends. So, look forward to seeing any and all of you there. There's still tickets available. You can get them through Eventbrite, and you can get those links on any of the-- just trust me, go to Real Life Real Crimes Facebook, you'll find the link.

Woody: And the LOPA raffle tickets links are there also.

Jim: We love LOPA.

Woody: You don't have to be present to win the Saturday night, the big prize drawings. Friday night, you do have to be present to win or to bid on any of the auction items.

Jim: Yeah, those would be live auctions. Look, they're always a hit. And this is good stuff, y'all. We ain't giving away jelly of the month. 

Woody: Right. [chuckles] Jelly of the month [crosstalk] that’s the gift that keeps giving all year long. 

Jim: That’s right.

Woody: Thank you for everybody that’s coming and everybody's already here. It's crazy. 

But what I want to do, Him, is flip it back for a second. I want to thank our patron members for--[crosstalk] 

Jim: Absolutely. 

Woody: You don't know what it means to us. Ultimately, this is a business, and we have expenses and things cost, and we could not do these shows without y'all. We hope you're enjoying your bonus episodes and your benefits.

Jim: Yeah, you've got everything from commercial-free early releases, which are a huge deal. If you're listening to this episode, it's definitely Wednesday because we release it on Thursdays to our non-patron members. So, if you're listening to it commercial free right now, it's on a Wednesday, you're getting that as a benefit for being a patron member and supporting us. There's benefits from there, including bonus episodes from time to time. And look, you get complete full transcripts, even with some of those upper-level tiers, and those are not cheap. We actually use the best transcription company. They transcribe these by hand. 

Woody: We don't even have that for Real Life Real Crime. I don't know of another true crime, although this is true crime documentary, I guess you would classify Bloody Angola. I don't know of another true crime show that does it.

Jim: Yeah. I'll tell you, it's something where me and Woody got these good Southern accents. The problem with that is nobody can transcribe us right.

Woody: I can't even transcribe my own shit.

Jim: [laughs] The people that actually do this, they do it by hand. It's not a machine, so there's no errors in it. You can literally print that thing out and it's in PDF form. As a patron member, you get the PDF version of this. You can print it out and it's just like reading a book.

Woody: I have had, in the five years of Real Life Real Crime, numerous people reach out to me about that. I never pursued it. You had numerous people reach out to us about it and you pursued it, so hats off to you for that.

Jim: Tons of people just said they like reading better than listening.

Woody: There's also people who are deaf and can't hear it.

Jim: That's right.

Woody: So, that's a big deal.

Jim: Huge benefit for them. All those benefits are yours on our Bloody Angola Patreon page. So important to what we do here. We couldn't freaking do it without these members.

Woody: Tell them how to sign up for Patreon or go look go look it up. 

Jim: Yeah, there's several ways you can do that. You can go to the Bloody Angola Facebook page, and there's a link tree on the home page there. You'll see it'll say L-I-N-K-T-R-E-E. You click that and it'll pull up the various links to get our media. The very first link you see will say Patreon page or say Chase Team. You click on that will bring you to the Patreon page. Or you can just go to www.patreon.com/bloodyangolapodcast, and that will bring you right to the Patreon. 

Woody: It has all the different tier levels. 

Jim: It does.

Woody: What the benefits are, what the subscription fee is a month. And we even have a yearly subscription fee now where you save money.

Jim: Yes. Two months off with that annual subscription, and you save two months off of what we consider already very fair pricing for what you're getting out of that Patreon. Look, it's really all love that y'all support what we do here, and we're just trying to continue to build it. Please share Bloody Angola with your family, friends, and even people maybe you don't like. [chuckles] If you hadn't rated us yet-

Woody: Yeah. That's a big one.

Jim: Huge. If you like what we're hearing, please go and leave a rating on wherever you're listing this, if it's Spotify, Apple Podcast, whatever. It helps other people to find the show, and it helps build our following. 

Woody: The larger we grow, the more we get to do.

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: We hope you enjoyed it. We love and appreciate each and every one of y'all. Hey, if you can't be a Patreon member, we get that. 

Jim: Totally. 

Woody: We totally get it. We love you, too. Right? 

Jim: That's right. We love anyone that listens to us talk about the history of the bloodiest prison in America. 

Woody: Absolutely. 

Jim: And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. 

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: Your host to Bloody-

Woody: -Angola. 

Jim: A podcast, 142 years in the making. 

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. 

Jim and Woody: Peace.

[chuckles]

[Bloody Angola theme playing]

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Kelly Jennings of Unspeakable:A True Crime Podcast by Kelly Jennings graciously filled in for Woody Overton today and joined Jim to dive into the murder case and the life inside of Angola of Justin Granier, who, in 2001 was involved and eventually convicted as principal to murder and sentenced to life without parole in Angola for the murder of Luke Villar , a teenager working at a grocery store in Gonzales, LA during an attempted robbery.

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Woody Overton and Jim Chapman discuss the brutal murder of Angola Prison Guard Brent Miller with inside information and details you may have never heard.

Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tells the history and stories of the bloodiest prison in American history, Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola.

From the creative minds of award winning podcasters Woody Overton of Real Life Real Crime  @Real Life Real Crime Podcast    and Jim Chapman of  @Local Leaders:The Podcast   Bloody Angola is a no holds barred podcast based on stories and interviews of the bloodiest prison in America, told like you have never heard it! 

  Episode 3 "Brent Miller and the Angola 3" is engineered and Produced by Jim Chapman and Envision Podcast Studios LLC 

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, we conclude the look into and response to the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as it relates to Louisiana Prisons.

Timestamps

10:13 Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina

17:07 Medical Emergencies and Evacuations

25:53 Lessons Learned for Future Evacuations

35:58 Conclusion and Next Steps

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In this episode of Bloody Angola, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell you some stories you will have to hear to believe regarding inmate of Louisiana State Penitentiary who were sentenced to DEATH ROW getting exonerated after DNA evidence or other substantiating evidence cleared them of their crime and saved them from getting the needle.

#DeathSentence #DNA #InnocenceProject #BloodyAngola #Podcast

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. 

Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. 

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. 

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. 

Jim: And we're going back to our roots, Woody Overton.

Woody: Right back inside the wire. 

Jim: Back inside the wire. Just when you thought we got out. Just coming back here. 

Woody: Yep. [crosstalk] They made me come back in. 

Jim: That's right. Look, we talk a lot on this show about the advancement, especially DNA, something you've worked with in the past many times. 

Woody: Yeah. This is a huge testament to DNA. When I started, it was really coming in its own. Now it's so much more advanced. I remember putting rushes on murder cases, and it taken six months to get the results back. 

Jim: That's crazy. Even back, we talked about Sean Vincent Gillis, and that was really probably one of the first times they were ever able to really rush something to the point where it really helped because you had to get that serial killer off the street. 

Woody: Derrick Todd Lee too. Still, even the rush back then took a long time. Not like it is now. 

Jim: Right. 

Woody: You know what? I'm totally for it. And let me do this real quick. I want to give a shout out to all our patrons. We love and appreciate each and every one of y'all. We love all you listeners, and bloody shooting to the top of the charts. It's because y'all are listening, liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. And we love y'all very much. Back to the DNA, it's just come leaps and bounds that continue to change every day. We always tell you Bloody Angola is going to be different, and this is different. You would think, oh, hard ass like me, lock everybody up, I don't believe in that. I believe if you're innocent you're innocent. 

Jim: If you're guilty, lock them up.

Woody: If you're guilty, you- [crosstalk] 

Jim: Don't wait [crosstalk] 

Woody: [crosstalk] -you'll pay hella jail. 

Jim: [laughs] Hella jail, that's right. We did want to preface this episode with some of these guys were exonerated from DNA. Some of them, it was other reasons. And we're going to get into that. The intriguing thing about today's episode is many of these guys that we're going to tell you about were actually serving in death row. They've been sentenced to death. 

Woody: Today, we're going to be talking about people or convicts who were exonerated and released from Bloody Angola.

Jim: Yes. We want to kind of start this off. I'm just going to tell you about the Innocence Project. The Innocence Project was founded in 1992 by Barry Scheck, y'all, familiar with him through OJ. It was basically formed to assist incarcerated individuals who could be proven innocent, primarily through DNA testing. Although sometimes they find so many holes in a case, they'll pick up a case where there's so many problems that they take that case on and look for exonerations in those cases. The average prison sentence before they'll take on a case is 14 years before their exoneration or release. And so, it's a process, even with those guys, but we're going to them to it. 

Woody: They don't just take anybody, right? 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: One of the ones I can tell you about if-- ready to get started?

Jim: I'm ready. 

Woody: Is John Thompson. John Thompson was from Orleans Parish. I'll just read you some of the facts of the case, some of the highlights, and what ultimately ended up happening. Shortly after midnight on December 6th, 1984, Raymond Liuzza was shot several times in the course of an armed robbery just around the corner from his New Orleans, Louisiana apartment. When the cops arrived, they found Liuzza laying on the ground, but he was still conscious. He told them he was robbed and shot by an African American male and then took him to hospital and he died. On December 8th, responded to tip, the police arrested two men in connection with the crime. John Thompson and Kevin Freeman. Photos of the two men were published in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, and soon afterwards, police received a call from a family that had been carjacked several months earlier, claiming that Thompson looked like the person who had robbed them. Thompson was charged with the murder. Meanwhile, Freeman agreed to testify against Thompson in the murder trial, and in return, prosecutors charged him only with being an accessory to the murder. He was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. We're talking about Freeman, y'all. 

The world-famous New Orleans district attorney, Harry Connick, Sr,, not Junior, that's his son, the singer and actor, decided to try Thompson for the carjacking case first, knowing that a conviction could be used against him in the murder trial. Based primarily on the eyewitness testimony of the three carjacking victims, all of whom were minors, Thompson was convicted on April 4, 1985, and sentenced to 49 years in prison. That is for the carjacking. Y'all, always told you that eyewitness testimony is the worst testimony there is, but doesn't mean it's not true. 

At his murder trial, held shortly thereafter, the prosecution demonstrated that Thompson had at one time been in possession of both the murder weapon and a ring taken from Liuzza’s finger. Thompson decided not to testify in his own defense because if he did, his felony carjacking charge would have been admissible to the jury. As a result, he was unable to tell the jury that Freeman had sold him the murder weapon and the ring. Freeman, the main witness for the prosecution, claimed that he and Thompson had robbed Liuzza together and that Thompson had shot him. This testimony was contradicted by the statements of eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen only one man running from the scene of the crime. Richard Perkins, who had originally called in the tip implicating Thompson and Freeman, also testified for the prosecution, claiming that he had heard Thompson make incriminating remarks. Thompson was found guilty and sentenced to death on May 8th, 1985. 

Fast forward a whole bunch of years, y'all, and events took a dramatic turn in April 1999, 30 days before scheduled execution, an investigator discovered that there was a blood stain from the robber on the clothing of one of the carjacking victims and that this evidence had never been disclosed to the defense. It's Brady, y'all. If they had it, they got to give it up. The prosecutor had ordered testing to determine the blood type of the stain, and in fact, they had rushed the test. But when the blood type was determined-- I guess this was before DNA. Blood type was determined and was different from Thompson's. They concealed it. Defense attorneys then obtained an affidavit Michael Rielhmann, a former district attorney, who said that five years earlier, in 1994, Gerry Deegan, one of Thompson's prosecutors, admitted on his deathbed that the blood evidence was intentionally suppressed and that he left a report about it on the desk of James Williams, the lead prosecutor. Williams denied ever seeing the report. Defense attorneys also learned that Perkins, the witness who testified that Thompson had admitted the murder, had received $15,000 from the Liuzza family as a reward. When this evidence was presented to the trial judge, he granted a stay of execution and dismissed Thompson’s carjacking conviction, but he denied Thompson’s motion for a new trial on the Liuzza murder. In 2001, however, he reduced Thompson’s death sentence to life in prison without parole. 

Jim: Wow. 

Woody: Pretty crazy, right? 

Jim: Very crazy. 

Woody: In July of 2002, the Louisiana Fourth Circuit Court of Appeal overturned Thompson’s murder conviction and remanded the case for retrial, ruling that the false robbery conviction obtained by deliberate government misconduct had deprived Thompson of his constitutional right to testify on his own behalf at the murder trial. Y'all, I'm not against that. I mean, give him a new trial, if it was messed up. At the second trial, Thompson was able to explain that he purchased the murder weapon from Freeman, and the defense called several new witnesses who claimed to have seen only one man fleeing the scene of the murder. They said that the man did not look like Thompson, but did resemble Freeman who, in the meantime, had been killed in a shootout with a security guard. On May 8, 2003, a jury acquitted Thompson after deliberating for 35 minutes, and he was released from prison the same day. Y'all, 35 minutes is for conviction? That's outstanding. But for exoneration, I mean, that's unbelievable. It normally takes hours--[crosstalk]  

Jim: They were pretty convinced. 

Woody: Yeah, they want to make sure. In 2008, Thompson won a $14 million civil suit against the District Attorney’s Office. That judgment was reversed by the US Supreme Court in March 2011 on the grounds that the misconduct in the case was not the result of a deliberate policy or systematic indifference by the New Orleans DA's Office. He got $330,000 in state compensation. But you know what? That's a long time to be on death row, and you didn't do it. 

Jim: He's a good example of someone that it wasn't necessarily DNA evidence that exonerated him, but it was the facts of the case. 

Woody: I have heard this case before, and actually, I think it's pretty well documented-

Jim: Thank you.

Woody: -but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. But you know what the sad thing is? In 2017, Thompson died of a heart attack at age 55. 

Jim: Yeah, man. And you nailed it when you're talking about those bloodstains. Back when he was convicted, it was '85. There was no DNA. 

Woody: I think it was like '92 when the first time it was used successfully. Even then, most prosecutors thought it was junk science. So, it had to be used over and over again successfully and tested and tested and tested and it grew to what it is today. 

Jim: That's right. Let me tell you about another case out of death row in Angola that was actually-- 

Woody: That place you don't want to go.

Jim: No, you don't want to go there. But was actually reversed over DNA, and that is the case of Ryan Matthews. So, Matthews was 16 years old, y'all, at the time he was sentenced-- or arrested rather, and was 17 when he was sentenced to death for shooting of Tommy Vanhoose, who was a convenience store owner in Bridge City, Louisiana. You familiar with Bridge City? 

Woody: Yeah. That's where the juvenile prison used to be. 

Jim: There you go. So, in April of 1997, a man wearing a ski mask entered the store and demanded money. When Vanhoose refused, the perpetrator shot him four times and fled, taking off his mask and diving into the passenger seat of a window of an awaiting car. Several eyewitnesses viewed the perpetrator's flight. One woman was in her car and watched the perpetrator run from the store, fire shots into her direction, and leap in the car. So, these guys were hightailing it. They done shot somebody four times. When she was later showed a photographic array, which is like a six pack, y'all, she tentatively identified Matthews as the assailant. By the time of the trial, she was sure that Matthews was the gunman. Two other witnesses in the same car watched as the perpetrator shed his mask, gloves, and shirt as he fled. The driver claimed to have seen the perpetrator's face in his rearview mirror while he was being shot at and trying to block the escape. The witness and his passenger were brought to a show-up hours later. The driver identified Matthews. His passenger was unable to make an identification.

As per our previous case, identifications not very reliable now.

Ryan Matthews and Travis Hayes, both 17 at the time, were stopped several hours after the crime because the car they were riding in resembled the description of the getaway car. They were arrested and Hayes was then questioned for over six hours. His initial statements to investigators, Hayes claimed that he and Matthews were not in the area where the crime occurred. Hayes eventually confessed that he was the driver of the getaway car. He stated that Matthews went into the store, shots went off and Matthews ran out and got into the car. Both boys were described as borderline intellectually disabled. In 1999, based mainly on identifications, Matthews was convicted of murder and sentenced to death.

Woody: There you go. 

Jim: Hayes was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. Matthews had maintained his innocence since the arrest. The defense presented evidence that forensic testing of the mask excluded both Matthews and Hayes. A defense expert also testified the car the two boys were driving, the reason they were stopped, could not have been a getaway car because the passenger side window that Matthews allegedly jumped through was inoperable and could not be rolled down. How do you get around that? I don't know, but they did. Other witnesses to the crime described the shooter as being much shorter than Matthews as well, which that's not necessarily that reliable. Height is hard to determine. 

Woody: You can put four people in the room and four people may get the different height and weight or whatever on. If it's a correct identification, basically you can bring them back two weeks later and they can still pick out the facial features.

Jim: That's right. So, y'all ready to hear how this person got exonerated? Well, DNA testing in another murder case proved to be the keys to proving Matthews' innocence, another murder occurring shortly after Vanhoose's death in the same area. A local resident named Rondell Love was arrested. He pled guilty, and Love bragged to other inmates that he also killed Vanhoose. And that happens, y'all, you'd be surprised. 

Woody: Street cred. 

Jim: This got back to Matthews' attorneys, I'm sure, through Matthews, and they began to investigate Love. DNA test results from the second murder were compared to the results from the Matthews' conviction, indicating that Love had been wearing the mask that was left behind in the Vanhoose's murder. Testing on the mask, gloves and shirt had already excluded Matthews and Hayes, but they became conclusive after Love's profile was included. 

Woody: There you go. 

Jim: So somehow, even though they were excluded from all that DNA in the first trial, there was no one to necessarily pin it on. So, it got pinned on them. Well, you can't get around it when someone else's profile shows up. Over a year after this information was discovered, he was granted a new trial. He wasn't released. He was just granted a new trial. But he did eventually get released. The new trial, he was found not guilty and became the 14th death row inmate in the United States proven innocent by post-conviction DNA testing. 

Woody: That’s crazy.

Jim: After two more years of legal battles, you'd think he'd get out right away?

Woody: They got to make sure. 

Jim: Yeah. Travis Hayes was released in December 2006 and exonerated in January of 2007. You may think that someone in this position, they must have got a ton of money. I mean, you sentenced to death, for Christ's sake. He received $252,000 in state compensation and another $133,000 from the federal courts. To tell you how resilient this cat is, in 2019, Matthews graduated from Texas University with his bachelor's degree. 

Woody: Cool. 

Jim: I get chills from that because, man, look--

Woody: They were going to kill him.

Jim: They were going to kill him. 

Woody: I get it, not to get into death penalty arguments, whatever, but I'm telling you this I'm glad John Thompson got off death row, and I'm glad he got off a death row, but I promise you, there's some monsters up there deserve to be there.

Jim: Oh, there's no doubt about it.

Woody: Don’t deserve [crosstalk] to breathe. 

Jim: Well, it's like you always say, just make sure you get it right. That’s the important thing.

Woody: Yeah, that’s it. If you're going to do it, do it right. Especially when you're talking about taking somebody's life. That's why they have the appeals process the last 20 plus years before they kill them. Let's talk about Glenn Ford. Glenn Ford from up in Caddo, that's where Hugo Holland-- 

Jim: That's right. Caddo--[crosstalk]  

Woody: He was another one, y'all, sentenced to death. He was convicted in 1984. But let me tell you about it. On November 5th, 1983, a 56-year-old Isadore Rozeman, a jeweler and watchmaker, was found shot to death in his shop in Shreveport, Louisiana. His pockets were pulled, and items were missing from the store. One of the first people to be questioned was 34-year-old Glenn Ford, an affable man who did yard work for Rozeman. Ford denied being involved in the crime, though he admitted he had been near the store at some point earlier in the day and witnesses told police they saw him near the store. In February 1984, items from Rozeman’s store turned up in a pawnshop and a handwriting analyst said that Ford had signed the pawn slips. Marvella Brown told police that her boyfriend, Jake Robinson, Jake’s brother, Henry, and Ford were at her house on the day of the crime and left together after Ford asked "if they were going." Brown said Ford was carrying a brown paper bag. When the men returned later that day, Ford was carrying a different bag and had a gun in his waistband. Jake Robinson also was carrying a gun. Brown said Jake showed her a bag containing watches and rings. That is suspicious.

Ford, along with Jake and Henry Robinson and a fourth man, George Starks, were charged with capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery in February 1984. November 1984, Ford went to trial. And Ford was represented by two appointed defense attorneys, neither of whom had ever handled a criminal trial, and one of whom had never handled a criminal case of any sort. That's kind of bad. 

Jim: Yeah. That's not the attorneys I want to represent--

Woody: Right. When you're on trial for your life. 

Jim: Oh, my God. 

Woody: If you're in Livingston Parish, you want Jasper Brock handling your business. [crosstalk]  

Jim: Yeah. This is a death penalty trial. 

Woody: If you're anywhere else over on that side of Louisiana, you want Thomas Davenport out of Alexandria to handle it, because that's what they do. These guys had never even handled a case like this. 

Jim: It's crazy. 

Woody: Anyway, Brown fell apart on the witness stand and said on cross-examination that detectives had fabricated her responses and she had lied in her testimony. She said she had been shot in the head earlier in her life and the bullet was never removed causing difficulty with thinking and hearing. 

Jim: Makes sense.

Woody: Several witnesses testified that they saw Ford near the victim’s store on the day of the shooting, but no one testified that they saw the crime. A gunshot residue expert testified for the prosecution that after Ford had voluntarily come in for questioning, he recovered gunshot residue on Ford’s hands. A fingerprint analyst said he lifted a single fingerprint from a paper bag found at the scene. He said that the print contained a “whorl” type pattern and that Ford had such a pattern, while the Robinson Brothers did not. Dr. George McCormick, Caddo Parish coroner, testified that he had analyzed the scene of the crime, including the position of Rozeman’s body and a duffel bag found next to the body with a bullet hole in it. McCormick said he concluded that the victim was shot by someone who held the gun in his left hand. Ford is left-handed and the Robinsons are right-handed. Not looking good for Ford.

Jim: No, not at all. 

Woody: McCormick also said that Rozeman had been dead for as long as two hours by the time the body was discovered, a time when witnesses said they saw Ford near the store. Ford testified on his own behalf, which most of them don't, but he testified and denied his involvement in the crime. He admitted selling items to the pawn shop, but said he'd got them from the Robinson brothers.

On December 5th, 1984, the jury convicted Ford of capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery. Following the jury's recommendation, Ford was sentenced to death on February 26th, 1985. After Ford was convicted and sentenced, the prosecution dismissed the charges against the Robinson Brothers and Starks. 

Jim: Let me just say this, okay, the inexperience of the lawyers that you mentioned is glaring when they allowed him to testify in his own defense in a death penalty case. Holy crap.

Woody: I don't know when they changed the law, but I know Jasper Brock in Livingston Parish-- [crosstalk] 

Jim: Yeah. Jasper Brock would say, "He ain't talking." [chuckles] 

Woody: And I know Thomas Davenport, they're certified in death penalty cases. You have to actually get certified to defend somebody in death penalty cases now.

Jim: Yeah. Probably, this case caused it.

Woody: Probably one of them I mean, they should've known this shit was going to get done the way--[crosstalk] 

Jim: That’s crazy. 

Woody: Still, I believe everybody has the right to a fair trial. Ford goes to death row. His appeals were unsuccessful until 2000 when the Louisiana Supreme Court ordered a hearing on post-conviction petition for a new trial filed by the Capital Post Conviction Project of Louisiana. At the hearing in 2004, a defense expert testified that McCormick's attempt to reconstruct the crime had no connection to known facts and were speculation at best, and I agree with that, they're talking about the coroner. You can't tell somebody's left-handed from a bullet hole and a duffel bag. Anyway, another defense expert said that the gunshot residue evidence was meaningless because it was gathered more than a day after the crime and that Ford could have easily picked up the residue merely by being in a police station where such residue is extremely common.

Another defense expert said that the prosecution's fingerprint expert misidentified the fingerprint on the paper bag, and it could have been left by the Robinson Brothers. All very, very true. Ford's lawyers at the trial testified that they were very inexperienced in criminal cases. 

Jim: Even the lawyers. 

Woody: [crosstalk] -Jasper and Thomas Davenport. And had no training in capital defense. If I was Ford, I'd be raising hell. I'm like, "You got me two guys that are wet behind the ears. Give me a pro."

Jim: Crazy, man. 

Woody: Jasper Brock or Thomas Davenport. They're even saying that he deserves--

Jim: Yeah. They go on the stand and say, "Yeah, we pretty--" [crosstalk] 

Woody: One of the lawyers who specialized in oil and gas law had never tried a case to a jury, either civil or criminal. That's like my brothers. One's a tax lawyer and one's a maritime lawyer. They've never been inside a courtroom. The extent of his prior criminal work was handling two guilty pleas. That's easy enough. The other lawyer, who was out of law school less than two years and was working at an insurance firm handling personal injury cases. Both said they were unaware they could seek court funding for defense experts, shocker, and didn't hire any because they couldn't afford to pay out of their own pockets. Both were unaware of how to subpoena witnesses from out of state. So, Ford's family members, who lived in California, did not testify for Ford at the guilt or punishment phase of the trial. The defense presented numerous police reports that had never been disclosed to the defense.

The report showed that Shreveport Police had received two tips from informants implicating only Jake and Henry Robinson in the robbery and murder. Other police reports showed that some detectives had falsely testified at Ford's trial about statements Ford made during his interrogation. Testimony that the prosecution should have realized was false, the defense claimed. Moreover, other police reports that were withheld from the defense contained conflicting statements by Marvella Brown and by the witnesses who said that they saw Ford near the store at the time of the crime. Reports could have been used to impeach the witness testimony at trial. 

Jim: Wow. 

Woody: But still, the post-conviction motion was denied. In 2012, the Caddo Parish District Attorney's Office began reinvesting the case, and in 2013, disclosed that an informant told authorities that Jake Robinson had admitted shooting Rozeman.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Woody: So, the honorable and right thing to do, in March 2014, the prosecution filed a motion to vacate Ford's conviction and death sentence in light of the newly discovered evidence from the informant. On March 11th, 2014, a judge vacated Ford's convictions, and the prosecution dismissed their charges, and Ford was then released. 

Jim: How about that? 

Woody: Even after all that, they'd fallen so hard in the second trial, etc. They came forward-- I think, you know what? I don't know if Hugo Holland was still the prosecutor up there at the end. I'll have to look it up. Maybe I'll ask him. He just messaged me last night. But that's an honorable thing to do. But in March 2015, a Caddo Parish district judge denied Ford's request for state compensation. Judge ruled that Ford knew the robbery was going to happen, did not try to stop it, that he attempted to destroy evidence by selling items taken robbery, and that he tried to find buyers for the murder weapon. Unfortunately, in June of 2015, Ford died of lung cancer. 

Jim: Yeah, that's a good kind of segue for a second, Woody, just to talk about, look, not all the guys we're going to tell you about today are Citizens of the Year. Some of them definitely committed some crimes or may have withheld some evidence, like in this case. But that's a long jump from being sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. 

Woody: Look, we have our legal process for a reason. A lot of my cases are bad cases where the witnesses are like really shady people or they're criminals themselves. Well, guess what? A lot of these crimes don't happen with a bunch of choir boys. You know what I mean? You're not running with choir boys when you're going to murder somebody and steal the jury. 

Jim: You're going to put them to death--

Woody: But having two inexperienced attorneys and all the other stuff and the guy saying about-- whatever, that's not enough to kill somebody.

Jim: That's right. We're going to give you a two for one right here. And you're not going to believe this. 

Woody: Let me tell you real quick, I know I keep talking about [unintelligible 00:31:23]. I don't know if this is-- we'll have to get him on. This part, he's a part of this Innocence Project, but I don't think it's the same one. Barry Scheck is another one. He got a guy off a death row. 

Jim: Wow. He'd be great to sit down and talk to.

Woody: He got a guy off a death row. He told me about the case, and I was like, "Holy shit." But I think it was out of Missouri. He's in all federal courts and everywhere else, Thomas Davenport, but he believes everybody deserves a criminal defense. And I agree with that. If you're a cop and you got it right, you got them right. Don't sentence them to death, don't send them away for life on some bullshit. 

Jim: That's right. We're going to tell you about Michael Graham and Albert Burrell. Now, both of these gentlemen were sentenced to death back in 1986.

Woody: I was 16 years old. 

Jim: That was a long time ago. Long time ago. On the night of August 31, 1986, 65-year-old William Delton Frost and his 60-year-old invalid wife, Callie, were fatally shot in their two-room home in Downsville, Louisiana, which is almost like a plantation area of Louisiana, very rural. The front door had been smashed in and police believed the motive was robbery because Frost didn't trust banks and was believed to keep cash in a suitcase in his home. A lot of older people, especially in those times, they didn't put money in the bank. They put money everywhere but the bank. The shots appeared to have been fired through a window and their bodies were discovered a couple of days later.

Now, six weeks after the murders, in October of 1986, Janet Burrell told police that she had met with her ex-husband on the night of the crime and that he had $2,700 in $100 bills and blood on his boots. That don't look good. She said he admitted firing the shots and she saw Frost's wallet on the front seat of his car. Wow. That's dead to rights. So, Burrell was arrested within the hour. Not long after, Kenneth St. Clair, another witness, told police that he had come to Louisiana with Michael Graham to find construction work. St. Clair told police that on the night of the crime, Graham and Burrell left the trailer where Graham was living near St. Clair about 8:30 PM returned, Graham had blood on him, St. Clair said. Now, you've got another person seeing that blood. At the time, Graham was in the Union Parish Jail on forgery charges for stealing a checkbook from a woman who hired him in St. Clair to do some work and then cashing about $300 worth of checks. 

Woody: Like you said, everybody in these stories aren’t angels. 

Jim: Yeah. On October of 1986, Graham and Burrell were each indicted on two counts of murder. Two days later, Graham's cellmate, Olan Brantly, told authorities that Graham had admitted he and Burrell committed the crime [crosstalk] [chuckles] that's it. And that Burrell had fired the fatal shot. So, Graham goes on trial in 1987 in the Union Parish Courthouse. The state's key witnesses were Janet Burrell, who we told you about, and Brantly, we also told you about. So, they got him dead to rights although police reports said that Frost's wallet was recovered in his home. A deputy testified that he believed Burrell had returned to the Frost home and put the wallet back because he suspected his wife had seen it the night they met. 

Woody: That makes a lot of sense, right? 

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: Why wouldn't you just throw it the fuck out-- [crosstalk] 

Jim: Yeah, that's a stretch and a half right there.

Woody: If you go back to the murder scene to put the wallet back, you got to think, "My wife might have seen it." 

Jim: [chuckles] Yeah. You're dumping it in the ditch or something. You're not putting it back. Another witness, 14-year-old Amy Opiel, who had spent the night of the crime with the St. Clair Family testified that she saw Graham Burrell sitting on the couch of a trailer with a suitcase and stacks of money. So, Graham was convicted on March 22nd, 1987, and sentenced to death. Burrell went on trial in August of '87, and he was also convicted and sentenced to death on pretty much the same evidence as Graham. Five months after Burrell was convicted, Janet Burrell, who by then was remarried to Burrell's brother James, I told you this was a good one, recanted her testimony, Woody Overton. She said she lied because she wanted to get custody of their child, which had been awarded to Albert Burrell prior to the murders. That's called motive to lie. So, the Louisiana Supreme Court, they grant--

Woody: That’s cold hearted.

Jim: Yeah, that's cold.

Woody: [crosstalk] 

Jim: That’s as cold as you can get.

Woody: How shitty of a mom does she have to be for the dad to get custody in the state of Louisiana? That’s a rare deal. 

Jim: Well, somewhere along the line, her conscience weighed on her and she admitted she lied. The Louisiana Supreme Court granted Albert Burrell a hearing. A hearing. But at the hearing, Janet Burrell changed her testimony back, she's figuring it out, "Uh-oh. I might get in trouble for this," to her original story. The motion for a new trial was denied. Eventually, the conviction and death sentence got upheld by the Louisiana State Supreme Court. Meanwhile, Graham, don't forget about him, his case was also sent back for a hearing in motion for a new trial because of all this going on. His lawyers, they continued to get extension after extension, and they began to cover new evidence. By 1995, Janet Burrell shows up again. She says, "I'm going to recant my testimony again."

Woody: She's unreliable now. 

Jim: Yeah. The crazy thing was, the execution date was in August of '96, she recants it in 1995. The lawyers, closer it gets to that execution date, they're 24 hours a day trying to get you a stay. 17 days away from his death, Burrell's lawyer obtains a stay. In 1998, Amy Opiel shows up again and recants her testimony, claiming she was pressured to lie and that it was St. Clair she saw with blood on his clothes and counting money. It wasn't Burrell. Okay, so Graham, he finally gets a hearing in 2000 where lawyers present all these recanted statements, as well as evidence that prosecutors failed to turn over, exculpatory evidence and impeachment evidence, including that Brantly had cut a deal with prosecutors on a pending charge, and then he was taking medication to control his mood swings. So, Brantly had a little bit of an anger problem, probably. On March 4th of 2000, Graham was granted a new trial after the Third Judicial District judge, Cynthia Woodard, ruled that prosecutors have misled the jury and failed to turn over exculpatory evidence. Woody, what is exculpatory evidence? 

Woody: Anything that could possibly make the jury find them not guilty.

Jim: Yeah. On December 28th of 2000, they dismissed charges against Graham, and he was released from prison. This is a man that was 17 days from getting the needle. 

Woody: From executing.

Jim: Yes. On January 2nd, you may wonder, "What about Burrell?" January 2nd of 2001, charges against Burrell were dismissed and he was released. Now, in 2016, a state appeals court upheld a lower court ruling denying Graham and Burrell compensation from the state of Louisiana. Burrell and Graham filed a federal lawsuit, but a jury ruled against them.

Woody: They never solved the crime now. That's a cold case.

Jim: Cold case. And here's the interesting thing. You may wonder why they're denying this money. 

Woody: It's hard. It's almost impossible to get a nickel for being wrongfully convicted.

Jim: Exactly. Especially when you don't have DNA evidence to back it up, because basically that was so many inaccurate statements, but it didn't necessarily mean you didn't do it. It just means the people that said you did it were lying.

Woody: A lot of times, if they have find gross negligence, they have to prove that DA actually did what they said that you did or whatever. 

Jim: That's it. 

Woody: Really, people don't really care about people that are exonerated, basically in paying--

Jim: Those are two for one right there for you. 

Woody: A lot of states have a set amount. If you get exonerated, it's just whatever, which is crazy. There's no amount of money worth being on death row. In Angola, much less on death row. 

Jim: Yeah, the guy that was the singer that we did the episode. 

Woody: Yeah, Archie. 

Jim: How can you give that guy enough money? 

Woody: You can't. 

Jim: And he was exonerated on DNA evidence. He did not do it. 

Woody: You cannot give him enough.

Jim: You can't give him enough. So, why are you putting a ceiling on it? Because every situation is different. Someone like that, you can't give them enough, but Goddang, you need to give them millions. 

Woody: They should never have to work or do anything.

Jim: Period. 

Woody: Y'all, we will tell you another one, and this one is a rape and a murder. It's the case of Damon Thibodeaux, which is a good, strong Cajun name. And another Louisiana man that was sentenced to death row at Bloody Angola. On July 19th, 1996, at around 05:15 PM, 14-year-old Crystal Champagne left her apartment in Marrero, Louisiana, to walk to a nearby supermarket. When she didn't return home as expected, her mother went looking for her. At around 6:45 PM, her father and 21-year-old stepcousin, Damon Thibodeaux, also went out to look for her, as did several neighbors. The search continued until the following afternoon, when friends of the family heard that a girl who looked like Crystal had been seen walking on the levee. Y'all, if you're not from South Louisiana, levees are manmade walls that hold back the rivers or the bayous or whatever. Said Crystal been seen walking on the levee in previous evening. Not long after, Champagne’s body was found near the levee. She was partially naked and had been strangled with a wire.

Before the girl’s body was found, JPSO investigators began interviewing people who had been with Champagne before she disappeared. An officer was interviewing Thibodeaux, who had been at the Champagne’s home when Crystal left for the store. When he was informed that her body had been found, a homicide detective then took over the questioning. Thibodeaux initially said he knew nothing about the murder. He agreed to a polygraph test, which police said indicated deception regarding the girl’s death. Uh-oh. 

Jim: And you being a former polygrapher--

Woody: I'm still a polygrapher, actually-- it's just so hard. Basically, at that point, the polygraph is an interrogation tool. It's hard to clear somebody who's accused of murder if you're not good as fuck like me.

Jim: [laughs] 

Woody: No, seriously. You got to set the questions, the questions that they lied to, their response has to be stronger than, "Did you rape and murder this girl?" Well, fuck you, you're in the hot seat. You're looking at a death penalty. It's hard to do. So, they failed him, whoever it was, I don't know who it was. They failed him on the polygraph, which, let me tell you, the polygraph is a long process, but it's basically made to break people down if they're guilty. And it's five or six hours. But I always said a good homicide interrogation doesn't even begin until after five or six hours. That's when you really start to get in that ass. 

Eventually, after nine hours of questioning, Thibodeaux said that he had raped and murdered Crystal. He was arrested and charged with both crimes. After he was allowed to eat and rest, Thibodeaux quickly recanted his confession, but was ignored. At Thibodeaux’s 1997 trial, the prosecution built its case around his confession to the rape and murder. Dr. Fraser MacKenzie of the JPSO Coroner's Office, who performed autopsy on Crystal, testified the girl had been strangled to death and had injuries to her right eye and forehead consistent with getting hit by a bat or a rock. He noted bruises on the girl’s buttocks, which he said indicated a struggle. He estimated Crystal had been dead about 24 hours before she was found. Separately, Dr. Lamar Lee, a professor of entomology at Louisiana State University, testified about the insect samples taken from Crystal’s body. He said flies will lay eggs on a carcass within a couple of hours after death but will not lay eggs after dark. He said that the eggs were laid before nightfall--

Jim: That’s true?

Woody: Yes. 

Jim: [crosstalk] as hell.

Woody: Came out of the body farm originally out of Tennessee, but I didn't if they used maggots and the generation of flies, and they could tell you how long a body's been down like almost within 15 minutes. 

Jim: Damn.

Woody: On July 19th, 1996, and calculated the age of the fly larvae or the maggots at between 24 and 28 hours old. They eat until they turn and fly, die and have more babies in cycle. There was no physical evidence linking Thibodeaux to the crimes, and though Crystal was found undressed, they found no semen on her body and no other physical evidence that she had been raped. A police officer testified that the semen could have been eaten by maggots. I guess.

A week after the crime, detectives questioned two women they found walking on the levee. Both said they saw a man pacing and acting nervously on the evening of the murder. Both women picked a photo of Thibodeaux from a photographic lineup, and both identified him at the trial. Thibodeaux’s attorney argued that detectives coerced the confession and suggested facts of the crime to him during their interrogation. On October 3rd, 1997, a jury convicted Thibodeaux of first-degree murder and rape. He was sentenced to death.

Jim: Oh, my God.

Woody: It's another one of our boys going up to death row.

Jim: Death row. 

Woody: So, fast forward ten more years, in 2007, the JPSO district attorney's office agreed to reinvestigate the case with the Innocence Project and other lawyers who volunteered to work on the case. Now, DNA testing as well as other forensic testing was performed, and investigators interviewed numerous witnesses. The investigation revealed that the women who identified Thibodeaux as the man they had seen pacing near the crime scene had seen Thibodeaux’s photo in the news media before police showed them the photo line-up. Moreover, the date of the sighting turned out to be the date after the body was found, when Thibodeaux was already locked up.

Jim: That could be a problem. 

Woody: Right. Well, you know what, you got to give props to JPSO DA's office for even trying to reopen and look at this, because most of them are like, "Fuck you. I [crosstalk] conviction."

Jim: Yeah, you did it. 

Woody: And he's on the death row. But extensive DNA testing on items recovered from the scene of the crime failed to detect any trace of biological material connecting Thibodeaux to the murder. Tests also showed that despite Thibodeaux’s confession to rape, Crystal had not been sexually assaulted. And DNA testing on the cord used to strangle Crystal identified a male DNA profile that did not belong to Thibodeaux.

Jim: Uh-oh.

Woody: Well, doesn’t totally excuse him. It could have been anything. Somebody else could have held the cord, and Thibodeaux could have been wearing gloves, we don't know. But the reinvestigation established firmly that Thibodeaux's confession was false. He claimed to have raped Champagne when in fact, no rape occurred. He said he strangled her with a gray speaker wire he took from his car, when in fact she was strangled with a red cord that had been tied to a tree near the crime scene. The prosecution consults an expert in false confessions who concluded that the confession was the result of police pressure, exhaustion, psychological vulnerability, and fear of the death penalty.

Jim: Wow. 

Woody: Yeah. I mean, it can happen, y'all. I hope every day that I didn't get the juice from somebody on the wrong level, and I don't think I did. Anyway, on September 29th, 2012, he was released from death row. Thibodeaux later filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was put on hold in January 2017. Like most of our guys, he died in August of 2021.

Jim: Wow. 

Woody: But you know what? I know false confessions do happen. It's a real deal.

Jim: Yeah. You'll confess to anything if you're tired enough.

Woody: You had your ass [unintelligible 00:49:06].

Jim: Yeah. 

Woody: [laughs] -eight, nine hours not eating, I mean, you're going to get the needle, da, da, da. It might have been, "Help me help you. You tell us what happened, we're going to tell that you cooperated." But the fact that he confesses and then they give him some food and he's like, [crosstalk]

Jim: Yeah. All right, we're going to give, y'all, one more today. We're going to tell you about a guy that definitely did not do it, was exonerated by DNA evidence, and that is Mr. Rickey Johnson. I saved this one for last today because he was in prison a long time for a rape he didn't commit. Matter of fact, he was in prison 25 years. 

Woody: That would suck. 

Jim: Yeah. One day in prison for something you didn't do, it sucks. All right, imagine 25 years. Let me tell you about the crime. In the early morning hours of July 12th, 1982, a 22-year-old woman awoke in her Northwest Louisiana home to find a man holding a gun to her head.

Woody: Wow. 

Jim: The man raped the woman twice, stayed at her house for four hours. He told her his name was Marcus Johnson, and he mentioned several details. He claimed they were about his life. He claimed to be looking for an ex-girlfriend of his from Many, Louisiana. He said he was on probation. He was from Leesville, Louisiana. He even said he had relatives in the town of Natchitoches and Monroe. The weird thing is, he raped this chick twice and then he starts telling her his life story. It's almost like he felt like, "Now, we have a connection." 

Woody: Yeah, I got this special nut dumping connection.

Jim: Yeah. What do you think the victim did? 

Woody: Pillow talk. 

Jim: She reports the rape the next morning, and at which point she told police her attacker was an African American man. He was between 5'6" and 5'8", and he weighed about 140 pounds. He had facial hair and a scarf tied around his head. A detective from the Sabine Parish Sheriff's Department contacted the Leesville Sheriff's Department to ask if they had a man named Marcus Johnson on file. There was no record of Marcus Johnson, but Leesville officers did tell detectives about Rickey Johnson. They said, "Well, we got another Johnson here. His name is Rickey. He's African American," and he was on probation for a traffic violation, a misdemeanor. Rickey matched some of the details that the lady provided of the perpetrator. He was from Leesville, he did have a child with a woman in Many, and he had relatives in Natchitoches and Monroe. So, he becomes a suspect. Nothing wrong with that. Police showed the victim a six pack, but it was actually only three pictures in this one. So, we're going to call it a three pack. 

Woody: Three pack. 

Jim: Yeah. It had Johnson's photo, which was at the center. 

Woody: I don’t know how you get away with that.

Jim: That picture was eight years old, and it was in the center. That's important. Mentally, you go to the center picture first. The victim told police that she had ample time to see the perpetrator's face and she identified Johnson as a perpetrator, even though he had a prominent gold tooth, which was never part of her description of the attacker. If a guy rapes you or a girl rapes you and they have a gold tooth, you're probably going to mention they had a gold tooth. 

Woody: You mentioned facial hair and everything else, and the gold tooth would stand out. 

Jim: Two days later, what do you think they do? They go arrest Rickey Johnson and they don't even investigate any other suspects at this time. They think they got their man. Johnson asserts his innocence. He says, "I didn't do any of this crap." Six days later, they conduct an in-person lineup with five individuals. Again, Johnson, they put in the center. And again, the victim identifies him as the assailant. The lineup was not presented at Johnson's trial because it was ruled inadmissible since Johnson did not have an attorney present at the lineup. I mean, it happens. Doesn't mean he didn't do it. Tests at the Shreveport Crime Lab determined that evidence collected from the victim at the hospital included sperm and serological testing that showed Johnson and 35% of the African American population could have been the contributor. So, that's basically no evidence. Too many people. 

Woody: Too many people are-- [crosstalk] African American. 

Jim: 35% of the entire population. Johnson was charged with aggravated sexual assault and tried before a jury in Sabine Parish, Louisiana. The victim identified him at trial saying she was positive. 

Woody: Game over.

Jim: Positive that was him, and there was no question in her mind. She said the apartment was dark until about 15 minutes before he left. Prosecutors presented the victim's photo ID of Johnson and the serological evidence that his blood type matched the blood type of the perpetrator as determined--

Woody: Back then, they didn't have DNA. They could give you blood types, basically. 

Jim: That's it. So, long story short, he gets convicted by the jury and he's sentenced to life without parole. 

Woody: Bloody Angola.

Jim: Bloody Angola, baby, that's where you're going. So, Johnson contacts the Innocence Project at the suggestion of a guy named Calvin Willis, who was also a fellow inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary. Willis was exonerated in 2003 after the Innocence Project secured DNA testing that proved his innocence. He basically called his boy and said, "If you really didn't do this, I got some people you need to talk to." Now, in late 2007, that DNA testing was performed on the sperm from the perpetrator of the crime. Remember, we said they had sperm. And the results proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Johnson could not have been the attacker.

Woody: Wow. 

Jim: This is the first DNA exoneration using the new technology with DNA at this time called Mini-STR, which allows labs to accurately test degraded or extremely small samples. First time. [crosstalk] In January 2008, they do what anybody would do, they took that DNA profile and now they have a database in 2008.

Woody: CODIS.

Jim: Uh-oh. 

Woody: They got somebody else.

Jim: They got a hit, Woody Overton. And John McNeal, who was already in prison serving a life sentence for rape committed in 1983 in the same apartment complex incidentally as the crime for which Johnson was convicted.

Woody: How the hell do you not investigate that?

Jim: It's crazy, ain't it? He's already in prison for that rape committed in the same complex. And so basically, they offer their apologies. After 25 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit, Rickey Johnson was released and exonerated in 2008 after 25 years in prison. The state of Louisiana later awarded him $245,000 in compensation. That ain't even close to what he needed. 

Woody: Did Johnson go beat that other guy's ass? [crosstalk] 

Jim: [chuckles] That's a good question. I couldn't find the answer to that. I'm sure he wanted to. 

Woody: [crosstalk] -find, you could. 

Jim: He would've got some inmate justice. 

Woody: Yeah. "Bitch, you knew I've been here all this time for this," and you know they all know what they're down for. 

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Woody: You get your David Constance been in there lying, saying, "My wife put me up, but not on rape charge."

Jim: No. 

Woody: [crosstalk] 

Jim: In the same apartment complex.

Woody: No doubt. That is crazy. 

Jim: It's freaking nuts. You would think that guy's already serving another life sentence. Why not just come clean and say, "I raped that girl"? Yeah, that's exactly right. 

Woody: Even convicts don't like rapists. 

Jim: That's right. 

Woody: Especially kid rapers and all that. 

Jim: That's right. So, long story short, he got $245,000 from the state of Louisiana. A federal wrongful conviction lawsuit was settled confidentially in 2011. So, he did get some money federally. Doesn't say how much. [crosstalk] Look, we hope y'all enjoyed these. 

Woody: We got to do more of these. 

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Woody: These cases you find, criminal mind is always fascinating to me, but this shit is--

Jim: Love it. 

Woody: Hey, we're all about the Gerald Bordelon getting executed for raping and killing Courtney LeBlanc. We're all about--[crosstalk] Almost every one of these, except for Rickey Johnson was on death row. 

Jim: Yeah, something. There's been actually, for those of you out there that are playing trivia games, there's been 11 people released from Angola alone from death row based off of either DNA evidence or strong evidence to force an exoneration. 

Woody: I get that why people are against it. They say, "Oh, you kill one wrong, it's too many, shut it down." You haven't sat across the table or looked at the dead bodies and shit that I've looked at and looked in the face of evil. But hey, I'm a champion, and would go on-- As you know Jim, after my law enforcement career, I went on and defended people that were innocent, that I believe they were innocent. So, it is what it is. We're not totally one sided, but hell or jail or freedom. 

Jim: That's it. 

Woody: It's another great episode. 

Jim: Yeah. We loved it. Thank you, patrons, couldn't do it without you. 

Woody: Yes. 

Jim: If you're not a patron member, go join Patreon. We may do some of these just for patron members. 

Woody: Patrons get commercial-free, early release episodes and locked up episodes, which we probably have more locked up for Bloody Angola than I have locked up for Real Life Real Crime, so a bunch of them. All different kinds of stories. So, y'all go check it out. You can go to patreon.com and type in "Bloody Angola."

Jim: Yep. /bloodyangolapodcast will pull you right to it. We appreciate it. We love each and every one of you. And until next time-

Woody: I'm Woody Overton.

Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman, your host of Bloody-

Woody: Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. 

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.

Jim and Woody: Peace. 

[Bloody Angola theme]

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In this episode, we delve into the world of America's most dangerous prisons, starting with Holman Correctional Facility in Alabama known as the Slaughterhouse. Moving on to Orleans Parish Prison with its reign of violence and numerous deaths. Pelican Bay State Prison in California is criticized for gang violence control, contrasting the setup with Angola. Rikers Island in New York is notorious with notable inmates like Tupac Shakur. Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, the largest maximum security prison in the U.S., known for its violent history, San Quentin, the oldest prison in California with death row for male prisoners, housing infamous criminals like Charles Manson. Folsom State Prison gained notoriety through Johnny Cash's concert. Sing Sing Correctional Facility, known for its electric chair executions. Attica Correctional Facility marked by riots and brutal violence, including the infamous Attica riot of 1971.

The episode also explores some of America's most dangerous female criminals, such as Belle Guinness, who killed over 40 people for insurance money. Gwendolyn Graham and Catherine May Wood, who killed elderly patients for thrill. Patty Hearst, who orchestrated her own kidnapping for ransom. Andrea Yates, who tragically drowned her five children due to severe mental health issues. Jane Toppin, a nurse who killed multiple patients. Nanny Doss, who poisoned multiple family members for financial gain. Delphine LaLaurie, who tortured and murdered slaves in New Orleans.

The episode further delves into the lives of the 10 most dangerous inmates globally, including Dennis Radar, the BTK killer, and a man nicknamed Charles Bronson, infamous for his violent prison behavior. El Chapo Guzman, the former drug lord, and David Berkowitz, known as the Son of Sam. Charles Cullen, an angel of death in the medical profession, and Joseph James D'Angelo, the Golden State Killer and we even cover an inmate named “Eyeball”

Timestamps

02:43 Most Dangerous Prisons in the United States

13:37 America's Most Notorious Female Criminals

19:59 Patty Hearst - Daughter Turned Criminal

25:37 Delphine LaLaurie - Torturer of Slaves

32:47 Aileen Wuornos - The Tragic Serial Killer

36:32 Call him Charles Bronson - Violent Prisoner

38:45 El Chapo Guzman - Drug Lord Extraordinaire

38:51 David Berkowitz - The Son of Sam

39:44 Charles Cullen - Angel of Death

40:52 Joseph James D'Angelo - The Golden State Killer

42:21 Jason Barnum - The Infamous Eyeball

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Woody Overton and Jim Chapman continue the discussion into the brutal murder of Angola Prison Guard Brent Miller with inside information and details you may have never heard. 

#AlbertWoodfox #BloodyAngola #PrisonPodcast #Podcast

Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tells the history and stories of the bloodiest prison in American history, Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. From the creative minds of award winning podcasters Woody Overton of Real Life Real Crime @Real Life Real Crime Podcast   Jim Chapman of    @Local Leaders:The Podcast    Bloody Angola is a no holds barred podcast based on stories and interviews of the bloodiest prison in America, told like you have never heard it!   

Episode 4 "Brent Miller and the Angola 3 Part Two" is engineered and Produced by Jim Chapman and Envision Podcast Studios LLC  

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Scott Huffman who spent over 5 years in a Louisiana prison joins Woody Overton and Jim Chapman to discuss what landed him in prison, life inside of prison and how learning sign language completely changed his life upon his release!

Bloody Angola Sally Port are podcast companions to the Bloody Angola series and are released 2 times weekly!

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In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman Kelly Jennings if Unspeakable: A True Crime Podcast by Kelly Jennings joins Woody and Jim and shares some stories about her time in Angola.

This episode has never been released to the general public and prior to today only available to patreon members but due to the extreme popularity of our patreon we decided to make it available to everyone.

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In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman they cover an escape from Angola in 1953 that resulted in the invasion of a home off prison property and the shooting of the homeowner.

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In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman the guys tell give you current updates on the teens being housed at Angola as well as female inmate being recently moved to the facility.

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In this episode of "Bloody Angola," we explore the fascinating history of prison escapes worldwide. 

From narratives of breakouts in the Tower of London to daring escapes during the American Civil War and gripping incidents throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. 

The lengths in which one will go to escape prison will blow your mind and we discuss it all today!

Timestamps

02:18 Prison Escapes

04:21 Escape History

12:11 Criminal to Detective

16:16 Escaping War

18:52 Lifetime Escape

23:56 Daring Adventure

27:46 Unexpected Escape

32:59 Dillinger's Escape

36:10 World War II Escape

38:16 Spanish Civil War Escape

#SerialKillers #tedbundy #johnwaynegacy #profiling #fbi #bloodyangolapodcast #crime #podcast #killers #dateline 

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In June 2016, Andrew Hundley became the FIRST juvenile lifer in Louisiana to be paroled following the U.S. Supreme Court’s Miller and Montgomery decisions that prohibited the mandatory sentencing of children to life without parole. It was clear that he was not the same 15-year-old who went to prison in 1997 to the parole board who approved his release.

Since his release from Angola, Andrew has earned a Masters degree in Criminology, is founder of the Louisiana Parole Project and is known in all circles of justice as the real life Andy Dufrane.

Whatever side of this issue you sit, you will not want to miss this episode.

In this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast Woody and Jim sit down with him for an in depth interview you are not going to believe on Bloody Angola Podcast.

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A 16-year-old brutally murders an 8-year-old while biking in Saint Francisville, Louisiana. Trevor Reese confesses which leads to a sentence in Bloody Angola for life without parole. We discuss the horrific crime, the legal proceedings, impact statements in this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast.

Timestamps

0:04:24 Background on Clinton and St. Francisville

0:12:44 A typical summer day in Louisiana

0:14:32 Tragic encounter with Trevor Reese

0:16:36 Monique's Desperate Attempt to Save Jack

0:18:10 Trevor Confesses to the Carpenter

0:18:34 Trevor's Brutal Crime

0:20:11 District Judge rules Trevor eligible for prosecution as an adult

0:22:54 Arraignment: Not guilty by reason of insanity plea entered

0:23:42 The shocking murder and the grief-stricken parents

0:26:06 Trial dates set and the plea deal confusion

0:28:14 Judge Carmichael questions Trevor's plea and explains the process

0:30:49 Trevor's monstrous nature and absence of remorse examined

0:32:15 Dr. Scott speaks about Monique's trauma and PTSD

0:34:04 Monique's realization and the horrifying details of Jackson's injuries

0:35:56 Jack's grandfather's heart-wrenching victim impact statement

0:36:32 Devastation and Hatred: The Scar You Left Behind

0:37:39 Jack's Father Pleads for Maximum Sentence

0:40:04 Trevor's Admission of Guilt and Sentencing

0:42:31 The complexity of victims on both sides

0:43:04 A Father's Responsibility and the Change in Law

Thank you to Cyndi Overton for her assistance in researching this case.

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Woody and Jim discuss the facilities at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola and cover the entire 18,000 Acres of devices available there, some of which may surprise you!

#LouisianaStatePenitentiary #AngolaPrision #BloodyAngolaPodcast #Podcast

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In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We continue to cover the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.

#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart2 #deathchamber #Execution #Convict

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Full Transcript Death Chamber Part 2

[Bloody Angola theme]

Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody- Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Thank y'all for listening and liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. Leave us a review wherever you listen up in your podcast. And Patreon members, we appreciate y'all, you rock. Thank you for your continued support. This one, we're going back to one that got a whole lot of interest and-- [crosstalk]

Jim: People loved it.

Woody: Well, I love it.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: I guess, you're twisted y'all, right? We're going to tell you about- Jim: Death chamber.

Woody: -death chamber stuff.

Jim: Yeah, Part 2.

Woody: Execution. Yeah, Death Chamber Part due. Jim: Part duh.

Woody: Duh.

Jim: Yeah. So, we're going to get into it and what we do with these folks-- If you hadn't listened yet, you can go back and listen to Death Chamber Part 1. The good thing about these is we cover just individual convicts that were executed at Angola. We tell just a little synopsis of their crime, and they got some really interesting final words in there for these guys.

Woody: [crosstalk] -things like that.

Jim: People just loved it the first time, so we're going to continue with it. I'll start out with our first convict up for, I guess, grabs today, and that is Leslie Lowenfield. Leslie Lowenfield was executed in 1988, and he rode the lightning.

Woody: Yeah, he graduated-- [crosstalk] Jim: Electrocuted. Gruesome Gertie. Woody: Gruesome Gertie.

Jim: He had a seat in that chair. And to tell you a little bit about this guy, he was a native of Guyana. He came to Louisiana from Canada in 1981, and he met his primary victim, which was a lady named Sheila Thomas.

Woody: I think he's well-traveled. I think Guyana is like in Africa or somewhere.

Jim: Yeah, then he goes to Canada.

Woody: And then he comes to south, to Louisiana.

Jim: He figured it out. He figured out the USA was where he wanted to be, I guess. And we didn't want him here after--

Woody: To make [crosstalk] Gruesome Gertie.

Jim: Yeah. Sheila Thomas was his primary victim. She was a deputy sheriff in Jefferson

Parish, Louisiana,-

Woody: JP. Yeah.

Jim: -which is around the New Orleans area.

Woody: Actually, it's one of the largest parishes geographically, because it expands all the way around Orleans, all the way down to Grand Isle. Did you know Grand Isle is in Jefferson Parish?

Jim: I did not.

Woody: Absolutely. There it cut across all that marsh and everything else, land wise,

Tangipahoa is the longest parish in the state. North and south, I think JP is the biggest. Jim: Interesting. I didn't know Tangi was the longest.

Woody: Yeah, Tangi is longest state north and south. Very longest parish--[crosstalk]

Jim: Very interesting. So, Sheila Thomas was a deputy sheriff. And Ms. Thomas, along with her daughter, young daughter, who was Shantel Osborne moved in with Lowenfield in the summer of 1981. So, you can already see. Uh-oh.

Woody: Right.

Jim: Lowenfield and Ms. Thomas, they lived together off and on for about a year. During that year, Ms. Thomas left Lowenfield on three separate occasions and returned to live with her mother. So, they're probably fighting, having arguments.

Woody: Off and on. Went off and on.

Jim: Yeah. Lowenfield became increasingly bitter following each separation. So, every time

she would leave, he would get more and more pissed.

Woody: Right.

Jim: When Ms. Thomas returned to her mother's home for the last time, he repeatedly threatened and harassed Ms. Thomas and her mother, victim, Myrtle Griffin. In the late afternoon of August 30th, 1982, Owen Griffin, Sheila Thomas' stepfather, was in a vacant lot near his home in Marrero, which is like an outskirts of New Orleans. He was playing cards with friends. Owen Griffin, all of a sudden, hears shots ring out from their home. He runs to the house, rushed inside, where more shots were fired. When police arrived, they found five bodies sprawled about the living area of the house, they found the bodies of Sheila Thomas, her four-year old daughter Shantel, Owen Griffin, his wife Myrtle Griffin,

Woody: Wow.

Jim: -and Carl Osborne, the father of Shantel. All of the victims had sustained multiple gunshot wounds, each had been shot in the head at close range.

Woody: That's crazy. Well, think about that last seconds when you're sitting there and whatever pops off and he shoots the first one. You're like, "What the f--?" And then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Jim: Just blasting--[crosstalk]

Woody: You're just sitting there. You know, I'm sure someone trying to scramble and get

away, but he's close enough to shoot them in the head. Jim: No doubt about it.

Woody: No mercy. Animal.

Jim: No mercy, and total animal. And he goes to court, gets convicted, gets sentenced to death. And eventually, as a matter of fact, in 1988, he does get executed. His final statement included remarks directed at his two attorneys, Wayne Walker and John Craft, who had worked on his trial and appeal. His last words were, "I hope you feel satisfied. Don't give up on me. Although my life will be over tonight, because the one responsible is out there."

Woody: Wow.

Jim: Yeah. Deny it to the end. "There is no reason to hold anything against me. And the rest who would lie when I'm gone, the body will be gone, but the spirit will live on. Mr. Walker and John Craft, your job was more important than my life. I hope you feel satisfied. Thank you to all of you, and peace."

Woody: Did he say peace?

Jim: He said peace. That was his final words.

Woody: Peace-- [crosstalk]

Jim: How dare he use the word.

Woody: Right. Road to hell. Yeah.

Jim: [chuckles] Yeah.

Woody: [crosstalk] -use a moniker.

Jim: But here's an interesting thing about this entire case. Dale Brown, the head basketball coach at that time, actually attended his execution.

Woody: Oh, I didn't know that.

Jim: They had been corresponding since Dale Brown toured Angola years earlier with the LSU basketball team actually became friends, and he attended that execution. I found that very interesting.

Woody: Wow. That’s crazy. So, that was the real deal execution. Gruesome Gertie. I got to sit in probably around that same time, and the chair would not, obviously, get executed, but think about the difference between what they do now. They just put him asleep, in a Gruesome Gertie,-

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Woody: -they strap you in and you about to ride, "rahhh." Jim: Yeah, lights.

Woody: Yeah, lights in. And off-on. rahhh. They don't just hit him once. They did it like, three or four to five times. So, fuck him, and he got what he deserved.

Jim: Yeah. And don't use our peace anymore. [laughs]

Woody: Yeah. Never use the peace. Tell the devil peace, son of a bitch. Jim: That's right.

Woody: All right. I'm going to take you to a guy named Timothy Baldwin. And the date of the murder was April the 4th, 1978. He killed a lady named Mary James Peters. Now, what's unusual about this killing one person and getting a death penalty? Well, Mary James Peters was 85 years old. That's bad, right?

Jim: Yeah. Elderly.

Woody: But she was blind.

Jim: Oh, my God. That's horrible.

Woody: He beat her to death with a skillet, a stool, a small television, and a telephone. You would think, me being retired from, say police, I would have all these pronunciations correctly, but I'm going to say this one wrong, because every time I say it, somebody corrects me. But I say Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, which is, y'all, is all the way up northeast in Louisiana. Great fishing and hunting. He was electrocuted in Louisiana on September 10th, 1984. Let me tell you about the case.

Timothy Baldwin, and his wife Rita, and their seven children were neighbors of Mary James Peters in West Monroe, Louisiana. Again, y'all, that's way northeast Louisiana. He was roommates with them from 1971 until 1977. Mrs. Peters was godmother to their youngest, Russell. During the latter part of their stay in West Monroe, William Odell Jones also resided with the Baldwins. Okay.

The group went to Bossier City for six months, and now, y'all, Bossier City is on the other end of the north part of state by Shreveport. All right, so probably about a three-hour drive. The group went to Bossier City for six months and then moved to Ohio. The oldest daughter, Michelle, remained in West Monroe with one brother. A second son entered the service. Marilyn Hampton and her three daughters stayed with the Baldwins in Ohio. Marilyn, Timothy Baldwin, and her children then left, accompanied by Jones. Baldwin and Jones worked together in the business of installing aluminum siding. After the departure of her husband, Rita Baldwin got into financial difficulties and was picked up on bad check charges. Her four younger children went to live with Michelle in West Monroe. Meanwhile, Timothy Baldwin, our bad guy, Jones, Marilyn Hampton and her three children led an itinerant existence. Their last means of transportation was a 1978 black Ford van which had been rented in Tampa, Florida.

On April 4th, 1978, Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin drove the van to West Monroe. Jones and the children stayed at a cabin in Holmes State Park, near Jackson, Mississippi. Jackson, Mississippi is not that far. Ouachita, however you want to say it in the Monroe is pretty much on the Mississippi, Louisiana. And just north of that is the Arkansas line. So, about an hour from there to Jackson. So, Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton visited Michelle's apartment in West Monroe but left there around 8:00 PM. Shortly thereafter, a van was seen parked in front of Mrs. Peters' house. A man and woman were observed leaving the residence between 10:00 PM and 11:00 PM. Shortly before their departure, passersby saw and heard indications that someone in the Peters' home was being beaten.

Baldwin testified in his own behalf and admitted that he and Marilyn visited Mrs. Peters that evening but denied the murder. Mrs. Peters, who was 85 years old, was beaten with various things, among them a skillet, a stool, and a telephone.

Jim: Oh, my God, and this is a blind woman. Woody: Right.

Jim: She doesn't even know it's coming at. Woody: Right. Yeah.

Jim: Poor. Damn.

Woody: That's unimaginable, right? Jim: Poor lady. Argh.

Woody: Think about the one I had Ms. [unintelligible [00:12:39] had the 57 blows. It was from a base and a Coke bottle, but she was on a walker and stuff. But at least she could see it coming, yeah?

Jim: Yeah, that's awful.

Woody: Anyway, she remained on the kitchen floor overnight and was discovered the next morning shortly before noon by an employee of the Ouachita Council Meals on Wheels, who was bringing her noon meal. Although helpless and incoherent, Mrs. Peters tried to defend herself against the police officers and the ambulance attendant who took her to the hospital.

Jim: Poor woman, man.

Woody: She doesn't know who they are. Jim: Yeah.

Woody: Dr. A. B. Gregory saw her in the emergency room around 12:30 PM on April 5th, 1978, and found her in a semi-comatose. Her left cheekbone and jawbone were shattered. She had brain damage from multiple contusions and lacerations. According to Dr. Gregory, Mrs. Peters could not communicate rationally. She died of the injuries the following day. Dr. Frank Chin, who performed the autopsy, attributed her death to massive cerebral hemorrhage and swelling, secondary to external head injuries. So, brain bleeds ultimately killed her and it didn't kill her instantly. Can you imagine that, living there, laying there on the floor all night?

Timothy Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton were subsequently located in El Dorado, Arkansas. Remember, y'all told you, Arkansas is just north. Timothy Baldwin signed consents for the search of their motel room and the van. Two blue bank bags, one empty and one containing savings bonds and certificates of deposit payable to Mary James, were found in the van. Jones, to whom Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin had made statements both before and after the crime, helped police officers locate a safe that had belonged to the victim in the LaFourche Canal in West Monroe. Baldwin's finger and palm prints were found on various items in the Peters' home, a cigarette lighter, a television set, and a coffee cup.

Baldwin was found guilty, and the jury did what they should have. They recommend the death sentence. So, Timothy George Baldwin was executed on September 10th, 1984. Baldwin was convicted of beaten to death the 85-year-old blind woman, Mary James Peters. And Peters, who was a former neighbor of Baldwin's and the godmother's of his youngest

child, was beaten with everything I told y'all about. Baldwin maintained his innocence and gave this final statement. He said, "I've always tried to be a good sport when I've lost something, and I see no reason not to leave this world with the same policy. After all, it was a hell of a battle. I therefore congratulate all those who have tried so hard to murder me. I definitely have to give them credit as it takes a very special kind of person to murder an innocent man and still be able to live with themselves."

Jim: Victim [unintelligible [00:15:37], huh? Woody: Burning in hell.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: I'm going to tell you something. Jim: Hella jail as usual.

Woody: Hella jail. But you go through all these years, he sat on death row for shorter time than they do now. You know, you're strapped down and that's going to be your last words. I'm thinking about trying to find me some Jesus.

Jim: Amen.

Woody: Even if I don't believe them and be like, "Oh, Lord, if you could please forgive me if

you're really there and bring me home." But he's saying, "Mm, I didn't do it."

Jim: What a horrible human. Wow. Yeah, we're getting real on this one. Look, these guys, they were executed. So, you're going to hear some disturbing stuff, but we're real with this stuff.

Woody: Executed for a reason.

Jim: That's right. I'm going to tell you about Sterling Rault. And Sterling Rault was executed, y'all, by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie in 1987, August 24th to be exact. And this is an interesting case, because a lot of these guys that end up on death row and executed, they come from really hard upbringings, and a lot of them didn't have money their whole lives. Sterling Rault was a little bit different. He had a good job, he was a Comptroller at a company called LUTEX. And there was a lady there named Janie Francioni. And Mike, if he were here, could help me pronounce that Italian last name.

Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -for sure.

Jim: But we're going to go with Francioni. She worked as a secretary. On the evening of March 1st, 1982, which was a Monday, fellow employees observed Rault and Francioni leaving work together in her car. Less than an hour later, three U.N.O. students, which is University of New Orleans inside of New Orleans, they saw the two struggling in the campus parking lot. Francioni screamed at the students, asked them to call the police and make him leave her alone, because he was attempting rape. The students closest to the car observed what appeared to be splashes of blood on her clothing. Rault repeatedly said he had to get her to the hospital, before throwing her into the car from the driver's side all the way to the passenger's side and driving away.

Woody: He was saying [crosstalk] the witnesses.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: "Oh, I got to get her to the hospital." [crosstalk]

Jim: Basically, grabbed her and threw her so hard into the car, she went straight into the passenger seat. So, he was probably a strong guy.

Woody: Right.

Jim: Approximately 9:20 that evening, a state trooper driving north on Paris Road in an isolated area of New Orleans East stopped to investigate what appeared to be a brush fire and discovered a burning female body.

Woody: Ah, worse way.

Jim: Close by were partially used five-gallon cans of gasoline and Francioni's blood stained car, which smelled strongly of gasoline. So, he's trying to burn the car in her. A spent bullet was even found on the floor of the car. The victim had a man's belt wrapped around her neck and a jagged wound on the right side of her neck. She had been shot twice. One bullet had struck her in the thigh, traveling into the abdomen, through the small intestines, stomach and liver before exiting the left side of her chest. The pathologist actually testified that this that this would have caused extensive slow bleeding. The wound would have been very painful and would have resulted in death in less than a matter of hours.

The second bullet entered directly into the abdomen, and damaged blood vessels in the right kidney and the large blood vessel known as the interior vena cava, before lodging in the spine and would have also caused really rapid bleeding. That wound would have been fatal in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. So, we're painting a picture of here is how she suffered. It was just horrible. The victim was dead-- [crosstalk]

Woody: [crosstalk] twice. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. The victim was dead when the neck wound was inflicted and she was set on fire. Thank, God. Her fingernail scrapings have human blood on them. So, she fought. She's a fighter. Janie Francioni had been with her mother and a friend during the preceding weekend and had had no sexual encounters. I'm sure they tested for that. Her mother took her to work on Monday morning. However, she had engaged in sexual activity 12 to 24 hours prior to her death. Vaginal swabs showed semen fluid but no sperm. Sterling Rault had a vasectomy in 1979.

When police searched the area, they detected movement under a nearby bridge. As they approached, a man broke out and ran. After a brief chase, he turned around, threw up his hands, and hollered, "I'm Sterling Rault".

Woody: Ran like a bitch.

Jim: Yeah. He appeared quiet, calm and relaxed. He was dressed in casual clothing. He was lacking a belt. What his detective brain can put two and two together on that one. And he had a strong aroma of gasoline. So, there were several fresh red scratch marks across his chest. His right hand was swollen. After being advised of his rights, he claimed two men in ski masks kidnapped him and Francioni and raped her. Of course.

Testimony at the trial revealed that Rault had been embezzling funds from LUTEX, and his secretary was about to basically ride him out. So, in December, 1981, .25 caliber semi-automatic weapon had been sold to a buyer with a driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones. In executing a search of Rault's residence, they recovered a gun box or the pistol, a box of .25 caliber cartridges and a Mississippi driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones.

Woody: Jerry Jones.

Jim: So, there it is. They end up taking him to court, obviously, and he gets the death penalty. So, he got executed on August 24th, 1987. He was convicted of raping, stabbing, shooting, and burning the body of Jane Ellen Francioni, a 21-year-old secretary, as we told you. And his final statement was, "I would like the public to know that they are killing an innocent man at this time."

Woody: Yeah, three for three. All innocent, huh?

Jim: Crazy. "I pray that God will forgive all those involved." How nice of you. "I, personally, do not hold any animosity towards anyone. The country professes to be 'One nation under God,' but the death penalty goes against the word of God. Into the arms of--" [crosstalk]

Woody: So does murdering, shooting, laid twice, and choking her with a belt and everything else.

Jim: Yeah. "Into the arms of love of God I now go. I love y'all. May God bless y'all." There was a little write up in the paper shortly after these. It was interesting, because he was fighting to try to get these stays of execution, as are typical, but unsuccessful. He rode the lighting as he deserves.

Woody: I'm so glad Gruesome Gertie was still involved in all these stories. Jim: Yeah.

Woody: I just think that's such a good way for them to go. I know so many people hate the death penalty, and I don't want anybody that's innocent, but these people-- [crosstalk]

Jim: Hear some of these stories. You know what?

Woody: It's like having a migraine. Everybody knows about someone, not someone about murder, but unless you're going through it, unless it's your loved one. I've seen people who said before their family members got murdered, they were against the death penalty. And after their family members got murdered, they wanted the death penalty.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: You understand it, but you don't get it. Jim: That's right.

Woody: Well, let's take to our next winner, Antonio James. And, y'all, he's a murderer during some robberies, and he killed two people in January of 23rd, 1979, and was arrested on the 26th of 1979. He was born in 1954, so he was at 1964, 1974, so he was like 24, 25. This happened in Orleans Parish. He actually, this winter, got lethal injection instead of Gruesome Gertie.

Jim: Got the needle.

Woody: Right, got the needle. Let me tell you about it. So, James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of-- He murdered two people, y'all, Henry Silver, age 70, and Alvin Adams. I don't know what Adams age was. But James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of Silver. The post-sentence investigation report-- Let me tell you about that. Anytime you get convicted of any crime, especially you're going to do a lot of time, there's actually a division of the parole officers and probation officers who do, what they call a PSI, presentence investigation report on you, and they tell your whole prior

criminal history, work history and everything else, drug use, whatever, and then they write a synopsis on whether to tell the judge whether or not they're likely to offend again.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: So, that helps the judge determine how many years or whatever they're going to

get.

Jim: I didn’t know that.

Woody: Unless it's automatic life in prison. The post-sentence investigation report prepared for the sentencing court listed 37 juvenile incidents. 37. That's the ones that they called [crosstalk]. That's the ones that they called him for. Think about all the ones he got away with.

Jim: Probably double it.

Woody: Right. James was ordered confined to the Louisiana Training Institute at age 14.

And, y'all, that is basically the Angola, we need--[crosstalk] Jim: LTI.

Woody: LTI.

Jim: [laughs] That's what you used to call it.

Woody: That was right down the road from me. We're going to actually cover that one day, because that's real shit there too. But most of these guys, a lot of them go to death row. But anyway, he was locked up in basically juvenile prison which was a very bad place at age 14.

In 1973, he was convicted of attempted armed robbery and sentenced to serve three years at the state penitentiary. During this period of confinement, he was convicted of attempted simple escape. He was released in 1975. I don't understand all these years, because armed robbery carries 99 attempted, I think is 40 up to, and then the simple escape alone is 10 years. Anyway, he was released in 1975. In 1978, he was charged with aggravated rape. That's a mandatory life, if not death penalty. But the charge was later refused by the prosecution.

James was convicted of the first-degree murder of Alvin Adams on January 23rd, 1979 and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Okay. The first-degree murder, he could have got the death penalty. He was convicted on January 26th of 1979. So, just shit, three days later, armed robbery of Robert Hooten and was sentenced to 99 years for this offense, the maximum under Louisiana law. Now, we go to Henry Silver.

On January 1, 1979, James approached 70-year-old Henry Silver as the latter was getting out of his car in his neighborhood in New Orleans. James placed a gun to Silver's head and demanded his money. When Silver shouted for help, James placed the gun under Silver's right ear, cocked the hammer, and fired a shot into Silver's head. James then rifled through Silver's pockets and removed his wallet containing $35. He drove away in a nearby waiting car. Silver died a few hours later at Charity Hospital.

Now, let me tell y'all this, I used to go there all the time back in the day. It's closed now after Katrina, but Charity Hospital was rated as the number one trauma center in the world for gunshots [crosstalk] you know why? Because it handled all New Orleans shit. In the 1990s, the Orleans was the murder capital of the world. So, I've seen some crazy shit in there. But anyway, he obviously lived on the machine for overnight. James was arrested on January

26th, 1979 when he bungled another armed robbery attempt and was shot with his own gun. He was indicted for first degree murder.

At trial by Orleans Parish grand jury indicted in first degree murder. In December 1981, jury found him guilty as charged at a trial where the principal witness against James was his accomplice, Levon Price. After deliberation, the same jury unanimously recommended that the defendant be sentenced to death. Rightfully so.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: So, let's go to March 1st, 1996. All these years later, that's 15 years later, James

was executed by lethal injection at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, listeners know it as- Jim and Woody: Bloody Angola.

Woody: -at the age of 42. The execution team had difficulty locating a vein to insert the catheter into his arm in order to commence the execution. Our hero, Warden Burl Cain requested that James make a fist in order to assist the process. James complied to this request. James declined to give a final statement. However, when Warden Cain later said that James stated, "Bless you," as he was strapped to the execution gurney. His last meal was fried oysters and crab gumbo.

Jim: Wow. Good choice. I'd say that. Woody: It made me hunger.

Jim: Yeah, dang.

Woody: James' execution was the subject of an ABC News documentary on Prime Time Live. In the UK the BBC broadcast a 40-minute piece on April 18th, 1996 on Radio 4 about this case, with particular reference to the role of the British lawyer Clive Stafford Smith in providing adequate defense. So, there you go.

Jim: Yeah. Antonio James, we talked about him a little bit on our-- [crosstalk] look, go back and listen to that series, the Burl Cain series, we just wrapped up.

Woody: Three or four parts.

Jim: Well, it was three parts.

Woody: Three parts and then me and Kelly. So, it's four parts. Jim: Yeah. So, the patron, we did an episode with Kelly Jennings. Woody: That's right.

Jim: Only available to patron. So go join that patron. Listen to that one. But we discussed Antonio James, and it was interesting. That was the second execution for Burl Cain and the one that he said, "I'm going to do this one right:"

Woody: Because the first one-- y'all, go listen to series.

Jim: It's really good.

Woody: Super powerful. Burl, we're still waiting on you to come on the show, buddy.

Jim: You know what I notice about that whole thing? Yes, we are. What I notice about that whole thing is, he's the first one we've come across today that didn't blame it other people.

Woody: Yeah, that's right. The first one that didn't-- [crosstalk] Jim: He just said, "God bless, and I'm out."

Woody: Yeah, God bless and riding out.

Jim: Yeah. At least took it like a man. That's right. So, John Ashley Brown. Let's get to him. John Ashley Brown was executed by lethal injection in April of 1997. I'm going to tell you a little bit about this crime. On the night of the murder, Mr. Laughlin and his wife had eaten dinner at a restaurant near the corner of Dauphine and Touro Streets in New Orleans. Very famous.

Woody: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah, area of New Orleans. At approximately 11:45 PM, they left the restaurant and began walking to their car, which was located about a block away. Brown exited a nearby vehicle and he confronted the Laughlins. He pinned them against their car, and demanded money from Mr. Laughlin. Mrs. Laughlin screamed and ran back towards the restaurant. When she returned to the scene, her husband was dead.

According to NOPD, who had arrived at the location, the victim who had arrived at the location, the victim was found lying face down in the street and bleeding profusely. An autopsy later revealed that Mr. Laughlin had been stabbed 13 times.

Woody: It's a lot.

Jim: Mrs. Laughlin provided the police with a description of the perpetrator and the vehicle which she had seen him get out of prior to the attack. She also told police that a woman with dark hair had been driving. So, Sergeant James Scott of the NOPD was stopped at a traffic light when heard the description of the crime and saw the suspect being broadcast over the radio. He looked to his left, and there's Brown sitting in a vehicle that matched the description given by the victim's wife. And there was a female at the wheel of the car.

Brown’s vehicle was pulled into a nearby service station, and Sergeant Scott followed, believing that the occupants of the car might be the suspects. The officer watched as the woman put gasoline in the car while Brown walked over to a water hose and he began washing his hands. He then-- [crosstalk]

Woody: [crosstalk] -blood all over him.

Jim: He then re-entered the car. Good point. Sergeant Scott approached the vehicle and ordered Brown to step out and place his hands on the hood, when Brown did so, the police officer observed scratches, marks and droplets of blood on his forearms. He also observed blood between Brown’s toes, which were visible through the sandals that he was wearing. In plain view on the floor of the car was a New Orleans shopper's card which belonged to the victim. Wow, the evidence is mounting up, right?

Woody: Right.

Jimmy: He was arrested, taken into custody, and a search yielded Mr. Laughlin's wallet. A second search pursuant to a properly secured warrant led to the discovery of a Bowie knife which had been concealed underneath the front seat of the car on the passenger side. Mrs. Laughlin positively identified Brown from lineup and basically nailed that, "This is the guy that attacked my husband and killed--"

Woody: For those of you who don't know, Bowie knife is a big ass knife.

Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, he goes to court, he gets convicted, he gets sentenced to death. And on April 24th, 1997, he was put to death by lethal injection at Bloody Angola. His final words were, "Let my baby sister know I love her and the rest of my family, for supporting me. I love you very much. I'm ready to go now." As he felt the lethal drugs enter his system, Brown stated, “Wow.”

Woody: Really?

Jim: That's it.

Woody: Wow. That's crazy.

Jim: Pretty crazy stuff. And those final words, man. But I guess, credit to the guy for not denying it.

Woody: Yeah, saying, "You got me bad. Go find the real murderer," and all that shit, right? Jim: Yeah.

Woody: And he said, "Wow."

Jim: "Wow," when he felt that stuff-- [crosstalk]

Woody: [crosstalk] -saw face of Jesus. Jim: Yeah, it could be.

Woody: All right. So, now, y'all, we're going to take you to our next, whatever you want to call him. His name is Willie Watson, and he's a murderer. And not only he is a murderer, he's a rapist and a kidnapper and a robber. This offense took place on April 5th, 1981. And Willie Watson was born in 1951. And he killed a lady, Kathy Newman, who was 25 years old, who was a Tulane University medical student. If you don't know that, if you're not from Louisiana, Tulane is basically the Harvard of the south. He did so by shooting her in St. Charles Parish.

On the evening of April 5th, 1981, Willie Watson abducted Kathy Newman, a third-year Tulane University medical student, at gunpoint as she arrived at her apartment building in the Carrollton section of New Orleans. Very familiar with that. Watson forced Newman to drive to an isolated area in St. Charles Parish, which would be towards El Paso, he drove her across the bridge, anyway, where he robbed her of her jewelry and raped and sodomized her. [unintelligible [00:37:42]

Watson then instructed Newman to dress herself, and as she did so, he shot her in the back of the head, killing her. Watson later confessed to the murder, stating that he shot Newman because he feared that she could identify him. On June 5th, 1981, Watson was found guilty of first-degree murder. And Willie Watson was executed on July 24th of 1987. Watson was convicted of the kidnapping, rape and murder, like we told you, of Kathy Newman. When they asked if he had any last words, Watson calmly shook his head, "No." Let me read you the article.

Jim: Mm, no last words.

Woody: This article is from The New York Times. It's right up after execution, dates July 25th, 1987, New York Times. "Willie Watson went calmly and silently to his death in an electric chair of Gruesome Gertie." They didn’t say that, y'all, it's me.

Jim: [laughs]

Woody: "Early today, for the rape, robbery and murder of the Tulane University medical student. He was the sixth murderer executed in Louisiana since early June and the second this week--" [crosstalk]

Jim: Wow. They making it happen back in those days.

Woody: The student, Kathy Newman, 25 years old was abducted, raped, and shot. Now, not just raped, y'all, sodomize I'll say, also and shot to death in 1981. Mr. Watson, 30, confessed that he killed her, attributing the crime to his drug addiction while an adolescent growing up in New Orleans housing projects. Look, back then they were real and legit projects. Did I ever tell you about that? You could be on where Mike's house is on St. Charles and go two blocks in any direction, they had the project-projects. The big high rises and shit. They had their own New Orleans police authorities for it. It was so bad. They wouldn't go in there in the daytime unless they had three units at a time.

Jim: Wow.

Woody: But anyway, this is a-- [crosstalk] Jim: So, he grew up rough.

Woody: That was rough shit, the concrete jungle. So, the execution, which had been scheduled for midnight, was delayed two hours after the US Supreme Court rejected Mr. Watson's appeal on a 4-to-4 tie vote. And Mr. Watson's lawyers made a last-minute plea to Governor Edwin W. Edwards, my boy, in Baton Rouge, and he refused the final statement. At 1:58 AM, Mr. Watson walked into the death chamber. His head had been shaved of the shoulder-wide afro, because he had a big fur, y'all, hairstyle he had the day before when he appeared at the state Pardon Board in a futile appeal.

Asked if he wanted to make a final statement, Mr. Watson shook his head, "No." He was then strapped into the wooden electric chair before his face was masked. Y'all, they do that because the eyes fry out of the head and the scalp will catch on fire. Before his face was masked, he looked at his spiritual adviser, Sister Lee Scardina, and mouthed ''I love you, Sister Lee.'' Then he received the first of four jolts. Remember I told you earlier, hit it, they go, "Hit it. [imitating electric sound]." Turn it off. And they did, "Hit it," four times. Anyway. So, then he received the first of four jolts of electricity at 2:02 AM. He was pronounced dead at 2:09 AM. After it was over, the spiritual adviser went to Jed Stone, Mr. Watson's lawyer, who was outside the death chamber, and cried on his shoulder. Outside the prison, six advocates of the death penalty marched in the darkness.

Now, I remember back in those days that basically the neighbor in parish where I grew up and-- Shit, I remember, they were rolling [unintelligible [00:41:39] Governor Evers was in office. My mom was on the parole board, parole and pardon board. Anyway, he was good friends with my dad.

Jim: Wow. That was like six minutes, they were jumping.

Woody: Yeah, they give him for a minute, turn it off, give him another minute, and then--

[crosstalk]

Jim: Good. Very good.

Woody: Nothing more but fuck you. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk]

Woody: Killed 25-year-old, she was going to be a doctor. He raped her and butt raped her.

Jim: Awful. All right, we're going to tell you-- Look, and this one's disturbing, so prepare yourself. But we're going to tell you about Andrew Lee Jones. And he was executed by electrocution on July 22nd of 1991. Tell you about the crime. On February 17th, 1984, 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was living with her mother, grandparents in the Scotlandville section of Baton Rouge. Tell them about Scotlandville, Woody.

Woody: Yeah, I'm just going to tell you. I'm about to do a full-blown episode. I have all the research and everything on this case, and it's bad.

Jim: Yeah.

Woody: Scotlandville, y'all, it's in north Baton Rouge almost to Baker, what they call Baker, Louisiana, which is really Baton Rouge just runs into Baker. It's all still east Baton Rouge Parish.

Jim: Bad part of Baton Rouge.

Woody: Yeah, it's-- [crosstalk]

Jim: A lot of gang activity in that area. It used to be way back in the day, a decent area.

Woody: Decent. Back in this time, it wasn't that bad. But this dude is that bad. Again, Real Life Real Crime original episode, you're going to get all the details, we'll get you.

Jim: There you go. So, at 04:00 AM on February 17th of 1984, the grandmother discovered that the child, the 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was missing from her bedroom. The police discovered that someone had broken the screen of the rear den window and had opened the back door. In the muddy ground, near the house, police obtained a cast of an imprint made by the left shoe from a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. There were no signs of a struggle inside the house. The investigation immediately focused on Jones because his stormy romantic relationship of several years with the victim's mother. It had been broken off the week prior to this incident. The victim knew Jones well, and he had been in the home many times. On the evening of the child's disappearance, Jones had called the mother's home three times and had told the grandmother that he would not be responsible for his actions,-

Woody: Not going to be responsible.

Jim: -if the mother continued to refuse to see him. About 6:30 AM, the police went to the apartment where Jones lived with his sister, Terry Jones, and his half-brother, Abraham Mingo. Jones told the police he had been home all night, and Mingo and Ms. Jones confirmed his story. A few hours later, Ms. Jones called the police and said she may have been mistaken about that. After questioning her further, the police obtained a written consent to search the apartment. When no one answered the officer's knock, Ms. Jones used her key to open the door and officers found Jones in the bathroom washing a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. The bath tub was full of dirt and leaves. The officers seized the tennis shoes and a pair of green gloves, and they requested that Jones give them a statement. After signing a waiver, Jones gave the police a tape-recorded statement in which he denied any knowledge of the offense.

Woody: "I don't know nothing."

Jim: Lack of evidence, so they had to allow him to leave with his sister. But approximately 06:00 PM, the victim's partially nude body was found in a drainage canal.

Woody: In a ditch.

Jim: An autopsy established a child had been beaten, raped and manually strangled. The police again questioned Mingo. Although he initially told conflicting stories, he eventually gave a detailed account of his activities with the defendant on Friday night and Saturday morning. According to Mingo, he and Jones were out with the defendant on Friday evening, but dropped him off in Scotlandville. About 1:00 AM, Mingo and Jones went to the Snowflake Lounge, but Jones left alone about 30 minutes later, and Mingo returned to the apartment.

Now, at some point between 04:30 AM and 05:00 AM, Mingo was awakened by Jones, he knocked on the door, whereupon he let defendant in and went back to bed. When Mingo and Jones were alone in the apartment later that morning, the defendant told him that he should've stayed home, that he did something he didn't want to do, and that he done fucked up. Jones gave Mingo a TG&Y bag and asked him to throw it away, which he did without looking inside. At Mingo's direction, police recovered a TG&Y bag from a dumpster near a grocery store. The bag contained socks, a pair of blue jeans and a pink sweatshirt, which were wet, muddy and stained. Of course, they put some analysis on that and identified the stain is a mixture of blood and semen fluid.

Woody: This is before DNA.

Jim: Mingo also told the police about a pair of boxer shorts that he had found in the bathroom of the apartment. The shorts belonged to Mingo, but Jones had worn them on Friday night. Pursuant to Mingo's written consent, the police recovered a pair of stained brown and white boxer shorts. Analysis confirmed the presence of blood and semen fluid on the boxer shorts. On the basis of this information, they finally got a warrant. They arrested Jones. Jones gave a videotape statement in which he asserted that he and Rudolph Springer had gone to the victim's house on Saturday morning to commit a burglary. They were scared of being recognized, so Jones remained in the car while Springer entered the house. When Springer returned carrying the victim, Jones got in the backseat and pulled his cap over his face.

After a few minutes, Springer drove Jones to his apartment. That was the last time the defendant saw the victim. That was his story, they didn't buy it. And eventually, he gets sentenced to death.

So, he was executed on July 22nd, 1991, by electric chair. While he did not make a final statement, at a pardon board hearing three days before he was executed, he said, "There's a possible chance I did it. A possible chance I didn't do it. If I had not been drunk, nothing like that would have happened. I'm like anybody else. I don't want to die or anything like that." So, that was his statement after that. I hate it when it involves children. It's disgusting.

Woody: Yeah, I actually have some more in-depth knowledge on that case. I'm going to bring it to you on a original RLRC episode in the future.

Jim: Oh, very good.

Woody: He is a real piece of shit. I know of Mingo personally, and I'll explain all that. Jim: I look forward to that, fellas.

Woody: Right. Let's take to the next one. John Brogdon. I'm going to give you the facts of the case. On the evening of October 7th, 1981, Rubeta Brown and her 11-year-old sister, Barbara Jo, walked to a convenience store near their home in Luling, Louisiana. Y'all that is in St. Charles Parish. Again, down there in the El Paso area and all that kind of outside New

Orleans, but across the swamp. So, they walked to use the telephone. 19-year old Brogdon and his 17-year old friend, Bruce Perritt, arrived at the store while Rubeta was on the phone.

Perritt approached Barbara Jo and put his arm around her. Rubeta called her sister away, and the two left. On the way home, Barbara Jo asked her sister if she could visit a neighbor's home for a few minutes. Rubeta allowed her sister to leave her to do so. Rubeta went to the neighbor's house, about 10 minutes later to pick up Barbara Jo. Barbara Jo wasn't there. And after short search in the neighborhood, Rubeta informed her mother that Barbara Jo was missing. And they called the sheriff's office.

After that, a friend of Barbara Jo's came forward to say that he had seen Barbara Jo earlier that evening in a car seated between Brogdon and Perritt. Two men discovered Barbara Jo's body later that evening behind a levee. Again, y'all levee are high dirt walls, usually dirt, sometimes cement, hold back the rivers in the water. But anyway, they saw him behind the levee in Luling. And look, you get no fucking business being behind a levee, period.

Jim: Yeah, especially in Luling.

Woody: Right. Perritt's car was found parked a short distance away. Two other men later informed authorities that they had seen Brogdon and Perritt walking on the road near this levee. Brogdon was without a shirt and appeared disheveled. Brogdon and Perritt were arrested that evening at Brogdon's home on suspicion of Barbara Jo's murder. After being informed of his Miranda rights at the sheriff's office, Brogdon waived his right to counsel and confessed to the murder and aggravated rape of Barbara Jo. In his statement, Brogdon told how he and Perritt tortured and killed her. Instead of visiting the mother's home that night, Barbara Jo had returned to the convenience store and met with Brogdon and Perritt. The confession-- Well, that's their story, y'all. Confession admitted that after they picked her up at the convenience store, Brogdon and Perritt drove her to the levee where her body was later found.

They repeatedly raped her and forced her to perform oral sex on them. All during these acts, they beat Barbara Jo with their fists. They also broke bottles on the cement and then stabbed her repeatedly with the edges. Perritt also struck Barbara Jo in the head with a brick that he found lay nearby. Brogdon then beat her with the brick. The two also used pointed sticks to pierce her body. Brogdon and Perritt left the scene of the crime and Perritt's vehicle when they heard another car approached and they hauled ass in Perritt's vehicle.

Brogdon was convicted by St. Charles jury of murder and aggravated rape and sentenced to death. So he was executed on July 30, 1987. Brogdon and his co-defendant Bruce Perritt were convicted of raping, beating. We told you about all that. Perritt received a life sentence, y'all, because the jury deadlocked in the penalty phase. I don't know what fucking--

Jim: Some juror. Yeah.

Woody: -idiots on that jury. Brogdon made no formal final statement. As he turned to seat

himself in the electric chair, his last words were, "God bless y'all." It's crazy, right? Jim: Horrible.

Woody: We do some really uplifting stories. We've done some great, great shit. But sometimes, you got to let it be known. Wow.

Jim: How the cow eats a cabbage.

Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -the worst fucking place in the world.

Jim: Yeah. These people that are getting executed are not always angels. Woody: They did everything to that girl. Poor-- [crosstalk]

Jim: Blind woman. That's just awful. Thank y'all so much for supporting us. We hope y'all enjoyed this episode. We've got a Part 3 that we'll drop at some point that you'll really like as well. But we just thank y'all for all you do for us.

Woody: Definitely patron members, hope you're enjoying your commercial free, early releases, and all your bonus episodes, and everything else. And you want to be a patron member, you can go to patreon.com, type in Bloody Angola.

Jim: Yes. And it'll pull it right up.

Woody: Follow us on Facebook, and look for Bloody Angola announcements and everything Real Life Real Crime, including Real Life Real Crime app, and follow our other show, Real Life Real Crime Daily, [crosstalk] me and Mike Agovino.

Jim: Yeah, absolutely.

Woody: Original Real Life Real Crimes like the one I'm going to tell you about with Mingo

involved in it. It drops on Tuesdays as of now, y'all. Jim: Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.

Woody: And I'm Woody Everton.

Jim: Your host of Bloody-

Woody: -Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: Complete story of America's bloodiest prison.

Jim and Woody: Peace.

[Bloody Angola theme]

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In this episode of the Bloody Angola podcast, we explore the Louisiana State Penitentiary Execution Manual. We discuss the procedures and requirements for executions, the role of witnesses, and the importance of professionalism. We also touch on the legal process and the rarity of exoneration.

Timestamps

0:03:20 Chain of Command and Roles in the Execution Process

0:05:48 Incarceration and Transport of Death Row Offenders

0:07:02 Communications and Media Regulations

0:09:11 Visits, Visits with Family, and Special Visits

0:15:47 Preparation and Security Measures for Executions

0:18:13 Witness Selection and Pool Reporters

0:23:25 Execution Process and Post-Execution Procedures

0:28:34 Execution process and the role of the coroner

0:30:13 Paperwork involved in the execution process

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In today's podcast episode of Bloody Angola we tell you 3 short stories of Life at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola including the story of Warden John Whitley who started his professional life and ended it at Angola, the story of Billy Blake Johnson who lost his life attempting to escape Angola, and the Prison View Golf Course which makes "Life" better for the Correctional Officers at Angola.

#bloodyangolapodcast #LifemeansLife #JohnWhitley #Podcast #Louisianastatepenitentiary

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TRANSCRIPT

BLOODY ANGOLA PODCAST: LIFE MEANS LIFE

Jim: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Bloody Angola, a podcast, 142 years in the making the complete story of America's bloodiest prison. And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody Overton could not join us today. We're working on some big, big stuff. And Woody's on assignment, that's all I can say. But there's going to be some really big stuff coming around the bend for everybody, so look forward to that. And I thought today, it would be fun to tell you some of the stories of Angola that you may not be familiar with, that aren't necessarily stories that can fill up, like, a whole hour of content, but at the same time, need to be told and are really good stories. So I wanted to share those with you, and we're going to jump right into it. 

The first story I'm going to tell you about is actually about a former warden of Angola by the name of John Whitley. And John Whitley was actually the warden of Angola from 1990 until 1995. Look, John Whitley, the prison warden, was probably as prototypical as you can get to a prison warden when you would think of one. Kind of like the opposite of Burl Cain. Burl Cain was someone that, when you saw him, you wouldn't think he was the warden for the largest maximum-security prison in America. Same thing with John Whitley, but on the total opposite end, he is exactly what you would picture. He was a cowboy character. Actually, wore a cowboy hat and dressed with button up shirt. The picture I'm actually looking at now, he has a vest. It's almost like a leather vest over that button up shirt, and wears glasses, mustache, just looks like someone you would picture as a warden. And had a short but storied history at Angola relative to being a warden. Although he started off at the very bottom, and we're going to tell you all about that. 

John Whitley attended Southeastern Louisiana University in Hammond, Louisiana, which is actually probably about an hour and 20 minutes from Angola. From where we record, right outside of Baton Rouge, it's actually about a half hour from us. It is I guess the second largest college in Louisiana outside of Louisiana State University. Good college. Whitley attended that college. He was actually born in Hammond, Louisiana as well. So he went to school same place he was born in. Now, after he left college, he ended up graduating in 1968. He enlisted in the United States Army. That's important. That was an important step in his life, because that was kind of in the heyday of Vietnam. People weren't necessarily just enlisting into the army. They were getting drafted. So it shows you John Whitley's courage and his commitment to his country that he would enlist in the United States Army. He actually served during the Vietnam War and was discharged in 1970. 

Now, shortly after that, he started his career in corrections. So Whitley started that career at Angola in 1970, and he rose pretty much through those ranks quickly. He eventually became a deputy warden, and then he was promoted to warden of another Louisiana prison. So he was deputy warden at Angola. I know you've heard about us talk about Hunt Correctional Center, which is a prison, it's kind of like the baby brother to Angola, just a smaller, not so violent a prison as Angola. They needed a warden, and he actually got promoted to the warden of Hunt Correctional. From there, he left the state, and he ran a private prison in Texas. I know you've heard us talk about that with the private prisons are actually-- they're not ran by state employees. They're ran privately, and the state pays them for that service, and Texas has several of those, and he ran one of those private prisons in Texas. 

Now, in 1990, Louisiana was like, “Man, what's going on here? This guy is in Texas, and he's got all this experience. He's a Louisiana guy, and we need him at Angola.” This was 1990, and Angola was in just a mess at that point, and they needed someone to restore order there, basically. At the time that they were seeking out John Whitley, they were having frequent, very frequent stabbings, suicides. They were dealing with a lot of escapes. And a US federal judge had actually declared, what's known as, a state of emergency at the prison in response to an ACLU lawsuit against the state specifically for the horrendous conditions at Angola. So it was a situation where they needed someone, not only with some Louisiana ties that really cared, but they also needed someone that had the experience to handle such a prison. John Whitley started there, rose all the way up to deputy warden. That was back since 1970. He was the perfect candidate for that. And so he took that job. 

Within two years, Whitley had pretty much stemmed all of that violence. He established incentives for good behavior, which is something they did not have in Angola prior to his arrival there as warden. Some of those incentives for good behavior, he'd allow the inmates to have extra visits. He would increase the educational opportunities for the inmates. If you were good, maybe you had the opportunity to learn a trade that you had to have good behavior in order to get to learn, like maybe welding or something. I mean, you don't want someone that's causing a bunch of trouble in Angola getting a halt to a welding machine. So those things, he figured out-- He figured out the important thing-- When you're running a prison, and that is you've got to have incentives for the inmates. If there's no incentive for good behavior, they're not going to be good. That's just the bottom line. 

So that was something he really stemmed, education wise for them. Also, literacy tutoring, computer and paralegal courses. He started bringing those into the prison not quite at the level that Warden Cain did later on, but the infancy of that is a credit to John Whitley and the things that he did. So he also enabled some trustworthy and deserving inmates to travel outside of the prison as part of some athletic teams and inmate bands that provided entertainment for-- They would entertain churches, they would entertain nursing homes and other charitable organizations throughout the area. John Whitley was kind of the guy who came up with the idea to start offering these things as a deterrent, if you will, against violence. He knew that these programs were the way to start. 

So he also launched an outreach program to all the criminal justice programs in the state of Louisiana. So he would basically send prison officials and inmates, and they would go into these college classrooms, and they would help, both the students and the faculty better understand the realities of not only managing a prison, but life in prison as an inmate. Those things weren't done, at least with Angola inmates, before John Whitley became warden. 

Now, one thing that's very important in prison, but is not commonly practiced, I guess you could say, is having an open-door policy with the media. Take it from me, y'all know that I love to research. It's not easy at all to find information about Angola, or probably most of your state prisons, and that is, they keep things that go on inside that prison, and you got to really dig to find information on stuff like that. But he was committed to, what I would call, an open-door policy with the media, and even The Angolite, which-- We've done several episodes about The Angolite and read many, many articles on that. 

Well, The Angolite, the biggest concern with that magazine as time went on, and I noticed this as I was reading it was, it got a little farther and farther away from what was actually happening. What they were printing was the truth. But where in the 40s and 50s, when The Angolite was produced, they were talking about all these escapes and stabbings and all the things that happened inside that prison. When it got around to the 80s and 90s, it was a lot softer. There were things going on, but they weren't allowing The Angolite publishers or editors, rather, to print that [chuckles] or talk about it. And so didn't necessarily mean it wasn't going on. It's just the editors weren't putting it in there. But he wanted to have a welcoming nature with the media and try to cooperate with them rather.

And so one of the things that he allowed The Angolite to do was to produce material for radio and television journalism inside the prison, which-- Believe it or not, they have their own radio station there. They have a lot of film equipment there. They can actually film documentaries and stuff. The prisoners actually learn how to do this, and are as good as-- They got some producers in Angola that are as good or better than I am at doing that. Some of them probably better, and just amazing people out inside that prison that produced these things. But he didn't want them censored. The claim is that John Whitley did not censor the radio shows and stuff that were coming out of Angola, which is very interesting. 

So he's continuing on and he's starting all these programs. Shortly after his first year at Angola as a warden, it was actually July 1991, some inmate welders were ordered by the corrections department to build a “hospital examining table.” So they soon learned that it was a gurney to enable executions by lethal injection. Now, this took place hours after an execution by electric chair had taken place. One of the welders actually had a brother who had been executed at the prison. And learning of these plans that this “hospital examining table” was actually going to be the table they were going to use for lethal injection, he didn't like that too much. So of course, as we told you, inmates like to gossip, inmates like to talk, and so he goes around and he starts firing up inmates and telling them of this plan. They're not making us build a hospital examining table, they're wanting us to build the table for the lethal injections. He's riling up these inmates, and they're bucking up. So they decide to stage a work strike. This is hundreds of fellow inmates. 

Now, when Whitley learned this was happening, what does he do? He locks up all the guys that are striking. He says, “Okay, y'all-- Are all getting locked up in solitary.” He brings in the SWAT teams and he tells them to get prepared for that strike. He also told the media that deceiving the inmate workers was wrong and the work order should have never been issued. He understood that it put the inmates in a bad position and he wasn't going to subject them to building the lethal injection gurney. 

When the inmates heard that, they basically ended that strike. There was no violence. And honestly, Whitley gained a lot of respect, not only with the inmate population, but also with his security force over coming out and saying, “Hey, this was a bad call and a major lack of judgment.” And look, regardless of what you may think about inmates inside of Angola, I agree that it's not right to ask inmates to build the lethal injection table for death row. I can see why they'd get pissed off about something like that. And he did too, and he admitted to that that was a little bit too much to ask. 

The Baton Rouge Morning Advocate, let's talk about them for a second. They're the premier paper I guess in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and are no fans of Angola, to say the least, especially with Burl Cain, The Baton Rouge Morning Advocate and Burl Cain have a long history of hatred, to say the least. So they're a very conservative paper. Even they commended him in two editorials for admitting that the prison had screwed up and made a mistake by asking the convicts to build that table. They went as far to say that was a refreshing thing to have a warden actually come out and admit that mistake. He was nationally even accredited for that with national magazines such as Time magazine, which had a glowing article that they put out on John Whitley. So I'm going to go ahead. I want to read you that article because this is really going to paint a picture of who he was, and then I've got another story I'm going to tell you about the prison view golf course. There's actually a golf course in Angola that we're going to talk about, but I'm going to go ahead and read you this article by Time magazine that was put out Monday, December 14th, 1992, and the headline says, Bringing Decency Into Hell: JOHN WHITLEY. 

So it says, When John Whitley wanders into the courtyard of Camp H, he's not just any visitor. He is the warden. The Man. Yet his presence stirs hardly a ripple. He inspects a flower bed, points to some asbestos dangling from a pipe. Mostly he just loiters, signaling that he is open for business. Slowly, as if they have all the time in the world, which, of course, many of them do, half a dozen inmates drift his way. One complains about missing laundry another asks that recreational time be extended. All are polite, but none display the eagerness of someone anxious to please. 

Whitley, 48, listens intently, asking occasional questions in a gravelly twang. Nothing in his courteous demeanor suggests, “I am the keeper, you are the kept. You understand that even if it's a small problem, it may be the biggest problem they have,” he says later. You don't just blow anyone off. Conditions were not always so relaxed and congenial at the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola. Just three years ago, the main prison and five outcamps at the 18,000-acre facility were rocking with murders, suicides and escape attempts. The mood was so tense that a federal judge declared a state of emergency, which included a state investigation and tightened federal oversight. Discontent among the 5,186 inmates could be summed up in a word, hopelessness. Prisoners, the vast majority of them lifers in a state where a life term means life, blamed their despair on tough parole laws. At risk was a reprise of the chaos that in the early 70s earned Angola the dubious distinction of being the nation's bloodiest prison. 

Enter John Whitley, a quiet-spoken Louisiana native with a lazy smile, whose cowboy hats and elephant-hide boots, hey, y’all, I like that, make more of an impression than his low-key manner. In just 32 months, he has turned Angola around, relying on little more than his sense of decency and fairness. The number of stabbings, hangings, and escape attempts has dropped dramatically. The malfeasance has lifted. Security officers say that Whitley has improved communications between the prisoners and the 1,500 member staff. Inmates credit Whitley with providing new educational and recreational programs. Most important, inmates feel they have an advocate in Whitley at a time when the courts and the Louisiana legislature seem bent on locking up felons. The way inmates and security guards tell it, “Whitley sounds like the hero of a movie. He is open-minded, impartial, considerate.” “Warden's pretty cool people,” says Curtis Kyles, one of 35 inmates on death row. "He sees people as individuals, not throwaways." 

To illustrate their point, prisoners start with an incident that occurred on July 22nd, 1991. At 12:10 on that date, Whitley presided over Louisiana's final execution by electric chair. Later the same day, orders reached the prison metal shop to construct the gurney that would henceforth be used for lethal injections. Two inmate welders balked, then 375 convicts joined their work buck. Confronted by every warden's worst nightmare, a prisoner rebellion. Whitley did the unthinkable, he backed down. He publicly called the idea a bad one and said a private contractor would build the table instead. "He admitted he was wrong," says lifer Patrick DeVille. "Wardens just don't do that." So, y’all can see he was earning their respect there.

Initially, some prisoners interpreted Whitley's reversal as a sign of weakness. But many changed their mind. A few months later, after the state legislature imposed a strict October 1991 deadline for inmates to challenge their convictions, Whitley, alone of Louisiana's 12 prison wardens, helped inmates beat the cutoff. He authorized the prison printshop to run off 5,000 appeal applications. He instructed the prison radio station to hold a question-and-answer program, brought in a lawyer to field questions, then ordered all inmates to listen. He also made sure that illiterate inmates which is about 70% of Angola’s population got help filling out the forms. 

So you can see there that he was building up this rapport with the inmates. And then the article goes on later. Whitley describes himself as very conservative on crime. He favors the death penalty and believes executions would serve as a deterrent if they were carried out more swiftly. He has presided over two executions. After each, he said, he went home and fell into a deep, undisturbed sleep. Whitley also says that his number one concern is security and that he has no-- his number one concern is security rather and that he has no moral problem locking up an inmate for life as long as citizens understand that it'll cost them. As a starry-eyed corrections rookie, Whitley admits, "I was going to save them all." 22 years later, he thinks it's a complete farce to speak of rehabilitating inmates. They must do that for themselves. "All we can do," he said, "is provide the opportunity. Does he believe a person can really change? Sure, I've seen it. They've aged. They've matured. They've shown they can handle their emotions." Would he give some of them a second chance? "Sure," he said. Coaxed, the warden allows that there are a couple hundred he could set free tomorrow and he would have no reservations.

Now some of those men were inmates back in 1970 when Whitley first started out at Angola as a classification officer. Armed with sociology and zoology degrees from Southeastern Louisiana University, he tried and failed to secure an appointment to the state police. Disappointed, he settled for a corrections job. After nine years at Angola, he moved to Louisiana's Hunt Correctional Center, where in 1983 he became The Man. "I never really had a desire to be a warden," he says. "I just kept being promoted up." Sybil, his wife of 17 years counters that She says, “He says he's not ambitious, but I say he is." 

After retiring from the civil service in 1989, he became warden of a privately run prison in Texas. When the call came from Louisiana asking him to return, Whitley's first reaction was to laugh. "I couldn't see coming back to a prison of the size and the problems of Angola.". He set what he believed to be an unreasonably high salary. Get this y’all, $70,000. Then found the joke was on him when his price was met. These days, Whitley's stiffest challenge is finding time to himself. The 28 square mile domain over which he reigns is as demanding as any small town. There are fire and sanitation departments, a civilian population of 300, which is mostly security staff and their families. A cemetery, a community, swimming pool and even a post office with its own zip code. 

Although Whitley and his wife and seven-year-old daughter, Susan, live in grand isolation in a spacious brick house atop a hill overlooking Angola, the sense of privacy is just an illusory. He can't even see Susan's swim meet without someone saying, “Hey, boss, I've got a problem. So when you live on Angola, you not only high access to the prisoners that are constantly complaining but you're employees that are constantly complaining.” That was one thing about Burl Cain when he was at Angola. If you remember, he didn’t live on the B-Line. He actually kept his house, which was at Dixon Correctional Center. I would imagine some of that might have been he foresaw these issues. Now the article goes on, it says, when Whitley took the wardenship, he signed on for three years. Extending his stay, he says, it would depend on how much he feels he can accomplish. It is clear he wants more. More medical, culinary and maintenance staff, a bigger hospital, more classroom space like every other warden in America though he runs up against budget limitations. 

Let’s talk about that second. That is the biggest issue with any state prison. Nobody, including myself, wants to pay for prisoners. And wardens from every prison in America will tell you they never have enough money. It makes sense in a way. I mean, “I don't want to pay extra tax dollars to lock someone up. I know it needs to be done, but I don't like to have to pay for that." So some of these programs are very expensive. When you have to rehab a prison, it's very expensive. And although I know there's a need there, nobody likes to pay for it. So these state prisons always have budget issues. “It was short sighted,” he said. What you send out of prisons is going to reflect what you had in them, if that includes the warden, Angola’s graduates are now just a little more likely to come out to fair, decent, straight up people just like The Man[?].

That was written by Time magazine, another magazine that you wouldn't expect necessarily to be very complimentary of wardens. But in this case, it was. That should tell you a lot more about who John Whitley was. Just a reminder there. He served right before Burl Cain. So Burl Cain came in and the foundation was built. It wasn't what Burl Cain brought it to while he was there, we all know, and we did a three-part series, so I'm not going to harp on this too much. It wasn't what Burl Cain did after he got there, but it laid the foundation for that. Whitley did a good job of that. So there's a little bit about John Whitley. We're going to try to bring you more information on some of these I guess Angola's wardens from the past every now and then, so you can hear that. 

Now, I made mention of telling you a little bit about the golf course at Angola. It may surprise some of you that they actually have one. They do. It was actually built by the prisoners at Angola. It's located on the grounds at Louisiana State Penitentiary, and it's operated by the Louisiana State Penitentiary Employee Recreation Committee. It offers players a challenging round of golf. It's a nine-hole facility. Meaning, most of your golf courses are 18 holes. This is a 9-hole facility, so you would basically play those nine holes twice to get a full round of golf in. It's a really beautiful golf course. The number one tee box is actually elevated 75 yards above the ground. It's set in the Tunica Hills. The entire course, it's a par 72 course. It measures around 6,000 yards in total. There's 37 sand bunkers, and there are some water hazards there as well. It features a restaurant serves po-boys fried seafood, hot dogs, cold drinks, and other assorted snacks. 

Now, the course was designed by the prison dentist, which is a guy by the name of Dr. John Ory. It's O-R-Y, y'all, so we'll call him Dr. John. The course was built with prison labor and funds generated from the Angola Annual Prison Radio. No public funds were spent to build that course. It is open to the public, so you can actually go play that course. The course opened for play in 2004. Now, if you're interested in playing the course, you have to present valid state ID, and play may be suspended anytime due to the institutional needs or at the warden's discretion. So if someone escapes, they're going to say, “Yeah, you got to get off the golf course.” Convicted felons and individuals listed on any inmate visiting list are not allowed access. And of course, you can't bring firearms, drugs, alcohol, or contraband items to that golf course either. But a really beautiful golf course. I'll try to put some pictures of it on the Facebook page and maybe some special pictures on the Patreon page. 

So I'm going to read you another good article here quickly. This was put out by the New York Times in 2004 when that golf course was built. It's pretty interesting because they actually talk with some inmates who help build that course. And it says, Golf Course Shaped By Prisoners' Hands. Golfers who step onto the new 9-hole course here encounter a rarity. The green felt fairways of Bermuda grass were graded and seeded by hand. The sand pits were actually dug by workers using shovels, not heavy equipment. More striking is the view. The first tee, a perch carved from the Tunica Hills near the Mississippi River, and provides a survey of all 18,000 acres of the prison. And that explains the hard labor. Prisoners built the course, which is on penitentiary property and open to the public. Though they cannot play, a few inmates have earned the privilege of tending the greens for 20 cents an hour at what is officially the Louisiana State Penitentiary but better known as Angola, which is 45 miles northwest of Baton Rouge. 

Lester Wright, who is serving a life sentence says, “Watching golfers on the course as he rides his mower is a bittersweet pleasure. 'When I look at them, I look at all the hard work that we done trying to fix this thing for them.” It's like, “Man, we did all this here and look at them dudes out there playing. Sometimes I do want to play.'' The course, called Prison View, was conceived by the prison's warden, Burl Cain, a man who views incarceration with a sense of humor. Visitors to the prison can buy T-shirts that say ''Angola: A Gated Community,'' along with Guts and Glory hot sauce, named for the prison's famous rodeo, at which inmates play chicken with angry bulls. At the golf course, the tees are marked with handcuffs. I do like that, nice little touch. 

Warden Cain brushes off the suggestion that some prisoners might dislike the markers. ''No, they think that's cool,'' he said. ''They wear striped shirts in the rodeo. They like it.'' But Mr. Wright, 49, said he was not amused. ''What are they doing with handcuffs out here?'' he says. ''Everybody knows it's a prison. It really offended me when I first seen it. After that, I just passed by and mowed the grass, it don't matter.'' Well, Mr. Wright, you're in prison, brother. Mr. Wright added, ''They're going to do what they want, we have to accept it, so that's all it is. It's all in trying to stay at peace with them and yourself.'' 

The course was built primarily for the use of prison employees, many of whom live on the grounds in a little settlement called B-Line. The course lies near Camp J, the 'behavior modification unit. Y’all, Camp J was the-- we did a whole episode on Camp J and how horrible-- how bad the reputation for Camp J was. It's no longer open. From the seventh hole, it is possible to wave to inmates on the Camp J basketball court, where they are permitted to spend three hours a week. 

On a sunny Sunday, the course attracted a handful of players, including a pecan sheller, an oil executive, and a telephone network manager, from nearby towns. Players said the charms of the course, its doglegs, short drives, and a lake with an island went beyond novelty. ''I've played a lot of courses, and I've paid more money to play a lot worse,'' said Joseph Lamartiniere, a corrections colonel at the prison, as his 3-year-old son, Peyton, hit a 15-foot drive. The transformation of the property from bull pasture to golf course took two years. Warden Cain said, it was the type of job that gave inmates a sense of accomplishment and taught them useful skills like groundskeeping and horticulture. 

Richard Mikkelson, a 47-year-old prisoner from Alexandria, Louisiana, was on the work crew and he said, it is indeed proud sight to see. ''I don't know how they build these things out here on the streets, but we did it with shovels and rakes and hoes.'' James F. Moore, the Director of Construction Education for the United States Golf Association said, he had a hard time envisioning a course built without modern equipment like mechanized levelers, seeders and powered trenching equipment. ''My guess is it's the only golf course built this way in at least the last 50 years. I'd have to see it to believe it.'' 

Mr. Mikkelson, who like most of the prisoners is serving a life sentence said, if he ever gets out of Angola, which would require an act of clemency, he would know exactly where to go for networking opportunities. ''A golf course is a place to meet people,'' he said. ''I've been told the main two places you go is to a golf course and church. That’s where you can get certain types.” Dr. Ory, who designed the course said, ''We want to go from a fun place to play golf to where people come back and say, that's a first-class deal. The fairways he said are planted with 419 Bermuda, as good as any country club. The whole course was built for $80,000, paid for by the employees' recreation fund and donations. A typical course costs $4 million to $7 million. And course fees are low. A membership is $200 a year, and the greens fee and cart are $20.” 

Dr. Ory said, “The hope is for the course to pay for itself, with some money to buy better equipment. The inmates have also learned a gentleman's sport. The par depends on the hazards and the length of the fairway,” he explained. ''From building the course and learning what each particular thing is as we built it, we knew how to play.” They just couldn't swing a club yet, and that's something we're not going to be allowed to do. Warden Cain draws the line at letting inmates caddy. “We're going to avoid the hint of impropriety,” he said. Some of the inmates who work on the course are known as trustys because of their good behavior records. And though Mr. Wright longs to play on a real course, he says he would not choose prison view. “I would like to play as a free man,” he said. “I would want to learn all I can. But once I get out there free to play like I want to, I'll enjoy it more.” So there you go. Look, I'm going to go play that course sometime, hopefully soon, and I'll give you all a report on my personal experience with it. 

And lastly, for today, I'm going to give you a quick story. Look, we got to have an actual story for you on Bloody Angola every week, right? So I'm going to give you one that I'm almost sure 99% of the people listening have never heard. Billy Blake Johnson was born on December 3rd, 1933, in Texas. He was the son of Emmett and Edna Johnson. And Emmett and Edna, his mom and dad, divorced when Billy was just a young boy. And by 1940, his father remarried and the family moved to what is known as Kern County, California, where Emmett worked as a truck driver. Nothing further is known about Billy growing up. But in 1951, he joined the Marine Corps and was stationed at Camp Pendleton. 

His military career would be short lived, and in January of 1952, Private First-Class Billy Blake Johnson was being held in the Camp Pendleton Brig for robbery. So he's starting some trouble. Then on July 18th of 1952, Johnson was able to open his cell door with the aid of a screwdriver he had acquired, and he then overtook the guard along with his firearm. Now, armed with a weapon, he commandeered a car belonging to Captain George Atkins and made his way off the military base, headed to Los Angeles. So what do you think they do? They put out an APB, an All-Points Bulletin, and eventually two LAPD officers spot a stolen vehicle occupied by Johnson. So he gets ordered out of the car, he comes out, and he's shooting, just like one of these old fashioned shootouts, and he shouts, “This is it.” 

Officers return fired, but he's able to escape injury somehow. He jumps several fences before he was taken into custody. And after his capture in LA, he was returned to that brig at Camp Pendleton and was sentenced to five years for burglary and theft, among other charges. He sits in that cell for several months and likely, what do we always say on this show? You got nothing but time in prison. He's contemplating his next move. And on a Saturday in late June of 1952, he escapes again. This time, he had an accomplice, someone by the name of Bobby Davis who had enlisted in the Marine Corps a year prior. The two make their getaway at 03:30 AM that morning in a green 1952 Chevy convertible with Texas plates. It's reported that the two were armed and known to be dangerous, and no details were really given as to how they managed to escape the brig, but they were apprehended a week later in Arizona. 

Guess what happens? There's another escape, a third escape in subsequent. Capture, and Billy Blake Johnson, eventually he serves his time and he gets paroled. But y’all, that did nothing to rehabilitate him. So in January of 1962, Johnson went to a service station in Texas, in a little suburb kind of south of Fort Worth, Texas, he buys $3.43 of gas, which back in 1962 might have filled up your whole car, and then he pulled a gun on the attendant and he says, “Act right or I'll kill you.” Johnson then takes $100 from a cash register and he forces a woman by the name of Hilleary Beck into the car with him. Beck tries to fight him off, and Johnson, in the vehicle, further threatens to kill her with this firearm. 

After driving about a mile, he then orders her out of the car and into a ditch, and he tells her, “Lie down,” and he drives away. Beck gets out of the ditch. She goes to a nearby home and calls authorities. So law enforcement, they're in hot pursuit. They're looking for him everywhere. They spot Johnson and they start chasing him. And both parties are like firing at each other, sticking guns out the window. Picture it. They're shooting back and forth at each other. Police set up a barricade to catch him. They set up a perimeter and they know he's heading in a certain direction. Johnson approaches Denton, Texas, and a patrolman by the name of A.C. Ballard leveled down on the hood of his truck with a sawed-off shotgun, and he blows out one of the tires of Johnson's getaway vehicle. The car goes out of control, y'all, it rolls over, it lands upright in a ditch. He somehow manages, again not to get hurt. He escapes serious injury in this. 

So he gets out of the car and runs. [chuckles] There's like a major man. This guy is like, impossible to catch. Major manhunt ensues and he eventually gets captured at a ranch in Denton County, Texas. Now, while in custody, he tells the arresting officers he had escaped three times from military prisons and had served time in four civilian prisons. He gets treated at the hospital for some very minor injuries, and then he's taken to jail. He goes to trial for all of this. But they find him to be insane, legally insane by a jury. here's not really, in the research I did, there's not really a whole lot of information as to how they came to that conclusion. So his criminal career doesn't end there, y’all. In 1964, Johnson went to Bonham, what's known as the Bonham, Texas jail for the sole purpose of breaking out an inmate. So it's important to note that a jury actually released-- when you were found to be insane, it's not like nowadays where you still stay in jail or whatever. He actually got released. 

But in 1964, he goes to a Bonham, Texas jail, and his whole point of going there was to break out an inmate by the name of Walter Ray Crews. He has a gun, and he literally breaks into the jail, overtakes a guard, and he forces the jailer to release Crews, and the two men haul ass. The pair makes it some 35 miles southeast to a city called Commerce, Texas, where they steal a car, and they drive 300 miles to Fort Polk, Louisiana. Now, while stopped on the side of the road, a state trooper pulls over to check on them. He sees them, doesn't realize at the time that they're escaped convicts. He just figured they were broke down, he was going to help them. Johnson, what does he do? He robs the trooper, which is a guy by the name of Jerry Raines at gunpoint and handcuffs him to a tree with his own handcuffs. Crews and Johnson then return to the stolen car and speed off. They head north. The trooper is able to eventually free himself with a spare key, and he, of course, radios in. “Hey, I just got handcuffed.” I'm sure that was an embarrassing conversation. But the duo ends up getting caught by an armed roadblock near Leesville, Louisiana. 

So Johnson gets sentenced to 15 years, and this is when he get sent to Angola, the notorious Angola prison. Bloody Angola, if you will. So he goes to Angola, and they're thinking, “Okay, he's not going to escape Angola.” Well, I wouldn't be so sure about that. On February 22nd of 1969, Johnson and two other inmates, armed with knives and a pistol, overpower guards in two separate dormitories. The guards were locked in a closet while the escapees cut the power of the main prison. Kester Lee hall, serving 189 years for murder, was captured just outside the prison. But Johnson, along with Philip Hudgins, had managed to avoid capture, but they didn't make it far. Authorities closed in on the two fugitives who were found in the swamps that surrounded the prison. Billy Blake Johnson, however, had made his last escape. Overtaken by the waters of the backed-up Mississippi, Johnson could not battle his way through the swamp. Hudgins tried to assist him and even carried Johnson for several hundred yards until he realized Billy was no longer breathing. He propped the body up of his fellow inmate against a fence and just waited while guards closed in. 

Exhausted Hudgins surrendered to law enforcement, and believe it or not, he would be released from prison in 1981. In 1983, he took a butcher knife and slashed the third of his wife and stabbed two others incidentally. Billy Blake Johnson was buried in Oak Ridge Cemetery in Ladonia, Texas. Although a cold, calculating, and elusive criminal, his mother still loved him. It's like Woody always says, “There's a mom somewhere and a dad and a sister and stuff that love you no matter what you've done.” His mother still loved him. His headstone was engraved with the simple epithet “Son.” So there you go. That's a story I bet you're not going to hear anywhere else, the story of Billy Blake Johnson. 

Look, I appreciate each and every one of you, Woody as well. We love, y'all. We couldn't do this without our patrons. Thank you so very much. We have a “big” thing coming to you very soon, and that's why Woody's not joining us this week. But he'll be back next week, I promise. I want to bring y'all something a little different. I hope y'all liked it. Just a little bit of everything. Golf courses, Billy Blake Johnson, and even the story of a famous warden at Angola. 

And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. And for Woody Overton, we are your host of Bloody Angola, a podcast 142 years in the making the complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Peace. 

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