Beyond Compliance: In Conversation (Beyond Compliance)

In this episode of ‘Beyond Compliance: In Conversation’, Katharine and Florian talk to two experts from the International Committee of the Red Cross about armed groups, civilian agency and international law.

Almost 200 million people live in areas controlled or influenced by armed groups, finds the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). How do armed groups govern these areas? What does the relationship between civilians and armed groups look like? And what are the obligations of armed groups under international law? To tackle such questions, Katharine and Florian are joined by two experts from the ICRC in this  episode of ‘Beyond Compliance: In Conversation’. Matthew Bamber-Zryd is the advisor for armed groups located in the operations divisions at the HQ of the ICRC in Geneva. Tilman Rodenhäuser is a legal expert in the ICRC’s Legal Division, focusing on armed groups.

Cited documents:

ICRC engagement with armed groups in 2023, Humanitarian Law & Policy, ICRC, 10 October 2023, Matthew Zryd-Bamber

https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2023/10/10/icrc-engagement-with-armed-groups-in-2023/

Speaker information

Dr Tilman Rodenhäuser is a thematic legal adviser at the International Committee of the Red Cross’ headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland. Prior to joining the ICRC in 2016, Tilman has worked with the German Red Cross, DCAF, the NGO Geneva Call, and the United Nations, with missions in Africa and the Middle East.

Matthew Bamber-Zryd is the ICRC’s Adviser on Armed Groups, based in the Geneva headquarters. Prior to joining the ICRC, Matthew conducted research on armed groups in the Middle East and North Africa for a variety of governments and international organizations including the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO), Swedish MFA, UN and International Alert.

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

More than half the world’s population are living in settings where they are regularly exposed to violence, whether from armed actors, gangs, community defence forces or criminal groups. What do civilian communities do to protect themselves and others in these settings? And what can we learn from them about civilian protection? To look at these questions, Katharine and Florian are joined by Juan Masullo and Emily Paddon Rhoads, who are two of the editors of the new book ‘Civilian Protective Agency in Violent Settings: A Comparative Perspective’ (Oxford University Press). 

Shedding light on the dynamics in different countries, Emily and Juan also discuss the conceptual foundations of their work, reflect on the methodological and ethical challenges  of doing research in this field and share some of their novel theoretical insights.

Cited documents:

Krause, Jana, Masullo, Juan, Paddon Rhoads & Welsh, Jennifer, Civilian Protective Agency in Violent Settings: A Comparative Perspective, Oxford University Press, 2023

Guest Bios:

Emily Paddon Rhoads is Associate Professor of Political Science at Swathmore College. She is the author of Taking Sides in Peacekeeping: Impartiality and the Future of the United Nations (Oxford University Press, 2016) as well as several articles on civilian protection, peacekeeping and the United Nations. 

Juan Masullo is Assistant Professor at the Institute of Political Science, Leiden University. He is also co-editor of Qualitative and Multi-Method Research, the biannual publication of APSA’s Qualitative and Mult-Method Research Section and member of the Editorial Board of the International Studies Review. 

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

How do people protect themselves in violent environments outside of ‘traditional’ war zones? And to what extent does international humanitarian law (IHL), the law of armed conflict, apply in such contexts? In this episode, Katharine and Florian talk to Chiara Redaelli and Anjan Sundaram about Mexico. Together they dive into the activism and courage of indigenous frontline environmental defenders in Mexico and explore the  difficulties, risks and benefits of applying IHL in this context.

Cited documents:

Redaelli, Chiara & Arévalo, Targeting drug lords: Challenges to IHL between lege lata and lege ferenda, International Review of the Red Cross, 105 (923), 652-673

Ted Talk, Meet our Planet’s Hidden Defenders, Anjan Sundaram, April 2024

Anjan Sundaram is an author, journalist, academic and artivist currently working on Mexico. His books include Breakup: A Marriage in Wartime, Bad News: Last Journalists in a Dictatorship and Stringer: A Reporter’s Journey in the Congo. He has reported from Central Africa, Cambodia and Mexico for Granta, the New York Times, the New York Review of Books, the Guardian and the Associated Press, among others.

Chiara Redaelli is a Senior Legal Advisor at Diakonia IHL. She is also an adjunct professor at Catholic University of Lille Lille University and La Sabana University in Colombia.  She is co-editor in chief of the Journal on the Use of Force and International Law and member of the ILA Committee on the Use of Force. 

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

How do civilian communities negotiate with armed groups? What do people try to achieve in these negotiations? And what enables them to negotiate with an armed actor? In this episode, Katharine and Florian talk to Riyad Anwar, Ashley Jackson and Abellia Anggi Wardani about their novel research on civilian agency during the armed conflicts in Afghanistan and Myanmar.

Cited documents:

Jackson, Ashley (2021) Negotiating Survival: Civilian-Insurgent Relations in Afghanistan, Hurst/Oxford University Press, 2021.

Widiatmo, D. & Wardani, A.A. (2023). Chinese War in Southeast Asia's Frontier: Contesting Kokang's Chinese Identity on Myanmar-China Border Conflict. Small Wars and Insurgencies, 34 (7).

Guest bios:

Abellia Anggi Wardani is a lecturer in the Faculty of Humanities, Universitas Indonesia, Indonesia, previously Executive Director of Knowledge Hub Myanmar and principal investigator for Exploring Community Perceptions and Coping Strategies on Violence in Rakhine State - Myanmar, funded by Creating Safer Space project - University of Aberystwyth. She received her PhD in Culture Studies from Tilburg University, the Netherlands. She was a fellow at the University of Sydney Southeast Asia Center, Center for Comparative Studies of Civil Wars at the University of Sheffield, and part of the Myanmar expert working group Folke Bernadotte Academy (FBA) Sweden. She became interested in peace and conflict issues when she joined the Geneva-based Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue from 2015 – 2021 working on conflict-affected areas in eastern Indonesia. 

Riyad Anwar is a Human Rights Impact Assessment Research Consultant at the Centre for Advocacy and Legal Consultation at the University of Hasanuddin. His research focuses on protection of displaced communities in Southeast Asia. In his previous position as Research Manager at the Knowledge-Hub Myanmar, his works prominently addressed the everyday violence and nonviolent protection of local ethnic communities in Rakhine State, Myanmar 

Ashley Jackson is a Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups. She has written widely on negotiating with armed groups and advised various UN agencies, NGOs and governments on humanitarian access and conflict mediation. Her first book, Negotiating Survival: Civilian-Insurgent Relations in Afghanistan (Hurst/Oxford University Press, 2021), focuses on life under Taliban rule and the nature of civilian agency in wartime. Ashley holds a PhD from the War Studies Department at King’s College London, an MSc in Gender and Development from the London School of Economics.

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

What influences civilians' decision to stay or leave in times of armed conflict?  In this episode, Katharine and Florian talk to Mara Revkin and Justin Schon about their research on civilian decision-making, access to information and flight in Syria and Iraq. They discuss the concept of civilian agency and talk about the challenges of conducting research straddling multiple disciplines.

Cited documents:

Revkin, M. Competitive Governance and Displacement Decisions Under Rebel Rule: Evidence from the Islamic State in Iraq, 65 The Journal of Conflict Resolution 46-80 (2021).

Revkin, M. When Terrorists Govern: Protecting Civilians in Conflicts with State-Building Armed Groups, 9 Harvard National Security Journal 100–144 (2018).

Schon, J. 2020. Surviving the War in Syria: Survival Strategies in a Time of Conflict. Cambridge University Press.

Guest bios:

Dr. Mara Revkin is an Associate Professor of Law and Political Science at Duke University, where her research focuses on armed conflict, peacebuilding, transitional justice, migration, and security sector reform with a regional focus on the Middle East and Africa. Dr. Revkin holds a JD from Yale Law School and a PhD in political science from Yale University, where her dissertation examined the Islamic State’s governance of civilians in Iraq and Syria. 

Dr. Justin Schon is a Statistician in the Migration Analysis Center within the Office of Homeland Security Statistics at the Department of Homeland Security, where his work focuses on modelling unauthorized migration into the United States. He holds a PhD in Political Science from Indiana University, where his dissertation examined civilian survival strategies with a focus on Syria and Somalia. He has field research experience in Turkey, Jordan, Kenya, and Malawi. 

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

In this episode, Katharine and Florian speak to Sophie Haspeslagh from Kings College London and Gloria Gaggioli from the University of Geneva about their research on counter-terrorism law, its mechanisms, effects and how it links to civilian agency and international humanitarian law. During the conversation, Sophie and Gloria provide insights on how ‘listing' affects armed groups, civilians, everyday life and peace processes. 

Cited documents:

Haspeslagh, Sophie, Proscribing Peace, Manchester University Press 2021

Haspeslagh, Sophie, The ‘linguistic ceasefire’: Negotiating in an age of proscription, Security Dialogue 2021, Vol. 52(4):361-379

Gaggioli, Gloria & Sobol, Ilya, Proscription and group membership in counter-terrorism and armed conflict: areas of tensions betwen criminal law and international humantarian law in Fortin K & Heffes, Armed Groups and International Law: In the Shadowland of Legality and Illegality, Edward Elgar 2023

Guest bios:

Sophie Haspeslagh is a lecturer in International Relations in the Department of War Studies at King’s College London. Her research focuses on the impact of counterterrorism on conflict resolution, the transition of armed actors away from violence and the international relations of non-state armed groups. She holds a PhD in international relations from the London School of Economics and Political Science and a Master's in international relations from SAIS Johns Hopkins University. 

Gloria Gaggioli was the Director of the Geneva Academy from 2020-2024 and is an Associate Professor and Vice-Dean of the Law Faculty of the University of Geneva. She is also member of the board of Geneva Call since August 2019. Her work focuses notably on issues related to the interplay between international humanitarian law and international human rights law, the right to life and the use of force, including the conduct of hostilities, law enforcement and self-defence.

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

What role did civilians play during the conflict and peace process in Northern Ireland? How does agency relate to victimhood and transitional justice? And how can people contribute to ‘everyday’ peace? In this episode, Katharine and Florian talk to Kieran McEvoy from Queen’s University Belfast and to Roger Mac Ginty from Durham University about Northern Ireland and their research on civilians navigating armed conflicts across the world.

Cited documents:

Mac Ginty, Roger, Everyday Peace: How so-called ordinary people can disrupt violent conflict, Oxford University Press 2021

McEvoy, Kieran, Mallinder, Louise & Bryson, Anna, Lawyers in Conflict and Transition, Cambridge Studies in Law and Society, 2022

McEvory, Kieran, Beyond Legalism: Towards a Thicker Understanding of Transitional Justice, Routledge, 2014

Guest bios:
Kieran McEvoy is the Senator George J. Mitchell Chair of Peace, Security and Justice and Professor of Law and Transitional Justice at the Senator George J Mitchell Institute for Global Peace, Security and Justice, Queen’s University Belfast. He is also currently a Leverhulme Major Research Fellow working on how armed groups address past harms. He has conducted research in over a dozen conflicted or transitional countries contexts on topics including among others politically motivated prisoners, ex-combatants, victims and amnesties.

Roger Mac Ginty is Professor at the School of Government and International Affairs, and the Durham Global Security Institute, Durham University. His 2021 book, Everyday Peace: How so-called ordinary people can disrupt violent conflict (Oxford University Press), won the 2020-2022 Ernst-Otto Czempiel Award for best book on peace. He edits the journal Peacebuilding and is co-founder of the Everyday Peace Indicators.

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.

What was the role of civil society in the Basque Country conflict transformation process? How did civil society succeed to even influence the process of ETA's disarmament? And could this happen elsewhere? Florian and Katharine talk to Dr. Véronique Dudouet and Urko Aiartza Azurtza to find out more about how the conflict moved towards peace, whether lessons could be replicated elsewhere and the role of international law in the process.

Cited Documents:
Dudouet, Véronique, From the Street to the Peace Table: Nonviolent Mobilization during Intrastate Peace Processes, United States Institute of Peace, 2021

Basque Permanent Social Forum, ETA's disarmament in the context of international DDR guidelines: Lessons learnt from an innovative Basque scenario, Berghof Foundation, Transition Series No. 12, 2017

Guest Bios:

Urko Aiartza Azurtza was deeply committed to promoting peace in the Basque Country through extensive involvement. Member of the Gipuzkoa Bar, he was involved in many human rights cases in Basque Country and he is currently CoPresident of the European Lawyers Association For Democracy and World Human Rights. He stood as Senator in Madrid from 2011 to 2015. In recent years, he has been actively providing advice on peace and mediation to public and private international institutions in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. He is senior advisor at EIP and a consultant at OCHA's Humanitarian Negotiation Unit as well as a fellow of the Centre on Armed Groups. Since 2019, he has taken on the role of director at the Olaso Dorrea Foundation and its “TM eLab”, a centre for generating innovative ideas in the Basque Country, his birthplace and current residence.

Dr. Véronique Dudouet is a Senior Advisor at the Berghof Foundation (Berlin, Germany), where she serves as focal point for inclusive peace processes, and conducts research, trainings and policy advice on conflict transformation, with a specific focus on non-state armed groups and social movements. In 2019, she was a Jennings Randolph Senior Fellow at USIP, Washington DC.  She is the (co-)author of four books, including Civil Resistance and Conflict Transformation: Transitions from Armed to Nonviolent Struggle (Routledge 2014). She has a PhD in conflict resolution from Bradford University, UK (2005).

The Beyond Compliance Consortium is a co-productive, socio-legal research partnership that traverses the fields of international law, conflict studies, humanitarian protection work and human rights policy, and brings together these communities of scholarship and practice with people with lived experience of conflict. It is funded by UK International Development. The first series of this podcast series is also funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).


Katharine Fortin is an Associate Professor in human rights law and international humanitarian law at the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights, Utrecht University.

Florian Weigand is the Co-Director of the Centre on Armed Groups.