The Trauma-Informed Lawyer (Myrna McCallum)

This episode discusses trauma shock and wellness in judges, lawyers and law students as well as the benefits of developing a trauma-informed legal practice particularly in the context of Family Law. 

This is an emotional episode which discusses Indian Residential Schools, child rape, the memories that haunt us and the hard stories we have to tell. It also focuses on healing and empathy and the choices we must make in order to heal. This episode also offers listeners ideas on how they can connect to Canada's Day for Truth and Reconciliation. 

Support this podcast at: https://ko-fi.com/thetraumainformedlawyer 

This episode discusses the recent murders which occurred on James Smith Cree Nation and the town of Weldon in Saskatchewan. The focus of this conversation with Dan Jones is primarily on the subject of racism and stereotyping Indigenous communities as we have sometimes seen in the justice system, media reports and Corrections Canada as well as the National Parole Board of Canada decisions. 

The justice system in Canada is broken. It traumatizes people who go through it and leaves them worse off. But how can we change a system that refuses to transform itself? Today, I talk with Benjamin Perrin, a law professor at the University of British Columbia Allard School of Law. We talk about how this revolutionary author is shaking up the status quo with his book and podcast series, Indictment: Criminal Justice System on Trial, and about the tools and approaches that break the cycles of harm and trauma in the courts, policing and prisons. It's time to challenge the system! 

Check out Ben's companion podcast at https://indictment.simplecast.com/ and his website for more info: https://benjaminperrin.ca/

If you want to attend the Justice as Trauma Conference, where Ben will be speaking alongside Dr. Gabor Mate and others, you can find more details here: https://www.myrnamccallum.co/justiceastrauma

In this episode, we discuss relational client engagement, racism, trauma, and the value of bringing a racially diverse lived experience to the counsel table and the courtroom. 

This episode delivers a call to action from the courts to find a better way forward, to become trauma informed for the benefit of judges, counsel, court clerks, court officers and victim support staff. 

"The retributive focus of the colonial legal system results in much trauma, particularly with respect to criminal justice. The enlightenment that comes with becoming trauma-informed can assist lawyers, decision makers and others involved in addressing conflict to overcome deep-rooted systemic hurdles. Viewing conflict through a relational lens which embraces principles of restorative justice supports relinquishing control over the achievement of “justice” and instead focusing on restoration." - Vanessa Slater 

Season 3 is here thanks to a generous gift from the BC Law Foundation! Thank you BC Law Foundation. Dr. Amar Dhall is back for round 2 to talk about introception, bio-hacking the nervous system, the importance of trauma-informed practice, emotional intelligence and to share details on our upcoming retreat in Whistler BC from April 11-13, 2023. Join us! 

This episode discusses vulnerability, vicarious trauma, restorative justice, harm, healing, debriefing, personal trauma and the missing link between current legal education and the practice of law. 

Fritzi Horstman of the Compassion Prison Project discusses prisoners, policing, trauma, ACES, intergenerational trauma, the justice system, racism, and how our humanity can get lost in our occupations. This episode references acts of violence. 

September 30th is Truth and Reconciliation Day in Canada, will you be a witness? 

CW: This episode mentions suicide, sexual abuse of children and other acts of violence. 

Dan Jones and Nicole Whiskeyjack share their story of hope and healing in the criminal justice system. Nicole was sent to prison for kidnapping and Dan was the officer who arrested her. Many years later, Dan has become Nicole's father and the two of them educate law makers, law students, police officers and lawyers on the importance of possibility, healing and relationship building in policing. 

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Ontario Court of Justice Patrice Band discusses trauma in the courtroom and his decision in R. v. Marratt which is the first of its kind to comment on vicarious trauma in the courtroom in the context of CP cases. This episode is Justice Band's call for everyone in the legal profession to learn more about trauma, its impacts on all of us and to explore how we can reduce its frequency. If you have a Chief Judge or Justice in your life or a Minster of Justice, please share this episode with them. May we all, one day soon, see a trauma-informed courtroom in Canada. 

This episode is emotional, raw, real and it isn't my regular content and deals with heavy subject matter including addiction, death, overdose, suicide, self-harm, sexual abuse, residential schools and my Indigenous lived experience. Listen with care. Seek support at 988 if you are in crisis and/or need support. 

RIP my brother Ty Iron. May the spirit world deliver what your life could never. 

This episode with Jen Yong, Myrna's business partner delves into deep and meaningful topics including career changes, life changes, spiritual partnerships, friendship and healing trauma. Jen Yong is a lawyer and transformational coach. If you would like to connect with her, please email jennifer@myrnamccallum.co AND If you are interested in our upcoming events: please visit www.myrnamccallum.co 

CW: This episode discusses violence and victimization. 

Heather Hart, host of the I'm Human Too podcast and Spokane area therapist stops in to chat with me about psychedelic assisted therapy. For more info on psychedelic assisted therapy or to find a therapist, visit maps.org and https://firesideproject.org/ And be sure to check out Heather's podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/imhumantoo/episodes/Introducing-Im-Human-Too-with-Heather-Hart-e2hgom5 Please also check out: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025 for info about my upcoming conference, where Heather will be speaking on how psychedelics are studied and used to heal trauma. 

Dimple Dhabalia began her career as a lawyer but after a stint at the Attorney General's office in Denver, she found her calling as an asylum officer. Working for almost two decades at the crossroads of the government and humanitarian sectors, Dimple found her job fulfilling, but it also led to vicarious trauma, compassion fatigue, moral injury, and burnout. 

With a mission to put the word “human” back in “humanitarian,” she started “Roots in the Clouds” which - among other things - supports humanitarians around the world in challenging the narrative of service before self  and normalizes improving and protecting mental health in the workplace.

Dimple’s book is titled, Tell Me My Story: Challenging the Narrative of Service Before Self. You can find here on Twitter @dimpstory  And don’t forget to check her website: rootsintheclouds.com

You can also listen to Dimple's podcast, Service Without Sacrifice: Conversations on Hope and Healing here: https://pod.link/1720788849

This episode discusses racism, sterotyping and the harm legal educators and legal institutions can sometimes cause racialized, Black and Indigenous law students - as well as those experiencing mental health challenges. 

In 2019, Marlee Liss's sexual assault case became the first in North America to get resolved in a restorative justice process instead of ending up in a criminal trial. Today, Marlee Liss is a restorative justice advocate, award-winning speaker, and embodiment coach. Her story is a testament that restorative justice provides a rare opportunity for survivors to heal in a way that respects their need for boundaries, care, and consent...while also initiating a transformative process for those who cause harm.

Marlee’s social media handle is @marleeliss. Find her work at www.marleeliss.com 

The second edition of her (poetry) book Re-Humanize is just out.

This episode discusses sexual violence,suicide and sexual harm. If you need support please call 8-1-1 in Canada or visit https://endingviolencecanada.org/sexual-assault-centres-crisis-lines-and-support-services/ for a list of crisis lines, support services and sexual assault centres in your area. 

Louise Marra is a systems healer and founder of Spirited Leadership and Unity House. By coaching companies and NGOs across sectors in New Zealand, Louise aims to create a space for what she terms "walking restorers." These individuals can foster new relationships and promote practices that help heal historical wounds that creep into today’s workplaces. Louise believes that leaders have the responsibility to bring restoration of past and present trauma into their organizations.

Louise’s book is called “ReRoot: The Nature of Change Through the System of Trees”. Watch out for a trauma-informed leadership course with Louise Marra on the pocketproject.org

Ret. Police Officer Dan Jones and I discuss the disturbing trend of dehumanizing Indigenous women in Canada. The most recent case in point: the refusal of the Manitoba premiere to search for the remains of Marcedes Myran and Morgan Harris. This episode may be triggering for some as we discuss murder, violence, sexual abuse, policing, homelessness, sex workers, and the Pickton murders. 

This truth and reconciliation episode with my daughter, Alicia, and Dr. Judy Jaunzems-Fernuk, is inspired by a recent event which transpired at a local Women of Distinction awards ceremony in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. 

Kisâkihitin, nitanis means "I love you, my daughter" however many of my people also accept the interpretation, "I love you, my girl". This is a personal story about my mom and I. Her name was Judy Marilyn McCallum. This story is my contribution to National Truth and Reconciliation Day, 2023. One day - maybe - this story will be published among other stories in a book. 

CW: I cover topics including suicide, sexual assault, child abuse, physical violence, residential school, Indian hospitals, medical experimentation and addiction. The National Indian Residential School Crisis Line provides 24-hour crisis support to former Indian Residential School students and their families toll-free at 1-866-925-4419.

Natalie Netzel of Mitchell Hamline Law School explains why trauma-informed lawyering is the way forward for law schools, legal educators and future lawyers.

Christopher Howarth is a retired Cheshire Police Officer. In the last 2 years of his service he moved into the training department and had responsibility for the interview training in relation to vulnerable and intimidated witnesses which sparked his interest in ACES, trauma and adopting a trauma informed approach to investigations.

Our conversation covers a variety of topics including mental health and wellness of police officers, how to conduct a trauma informed interview of a vulnerable witness and how collaboration is one solution to current criticisms facing police in America. 

Myrna's conversation with Vina Brown of Copper Canoe Woman Creations will uplift and inspire you. Vina Brown is a force, a healer, a helper, an artist and a successful Indigenous business owner. This conversation explores healing trauma for Indigenous people including the long-silenced/secret many carry: childhood sexual abuse (trigger warning) and the need for communities to heal together. CW: This episode also discusses eating disorders, sexual trauma, grief and loss. 

You will hear about an upcoming Indigenous-only course called "LoveBack" so if you're interested in attending, contact jennifer@myrnamccallum.co for more information. 

Please follow @coppercanoewoman on IG and order some "LoveBack" earrings today!

This episode covers topics including transgender issues, vicarious trauma, trauma education for judges, resilience strategies and positive transformation in the judiciary and legal profession. 

Myrna recaps 2022 and highlights holiday depression, suicidal ideation, grief, gratitude, Gabor Mate and the healing we need in the legal profession. Caution: Myrna also drops a couple F bombs. 

This episode discusses the psychological harm lawyers may experience as a result of doing what they love to do: advocacy. This episode references working with abuse survivors, suicide, mental health, vicarious trauma and vicarious resilience. 

This episode explores what advocacy looks like from the perspective of lawyers who understand and practice cultural humility from a trauma-informed lens

This episode discusses generally the abuses Indigenous children experienced at residential schools, trauma, healing and reconciliation from the Anishinabe perspective. 

The episode discusses Canada's genocide against Indigenous people, sexual assault cases and culture as  healing tool for Indigenous people. 

Myrna and a few of her friends and colleagues are delivering a course on trauma-informed justice which will be delivered via Zoom Events from July 20-22. This course is for everyone, not just lawyers. This course is open for registration. Register today at www.myrnamccallum.co 

Helgi Maki discusses mental health, sustainability and how the legal profession creates a double life and in doing so, demands that lawyers also maintain impossible appearances which may cost them their mental well-being. 

This episode discusses racism, colonization and intentional Indigenous exclusion from the Canadian judiciary. 

It is time to courageously reflect on how you show up, how you impact others, how others impact you and why we all need to make space for psychological safety and boundaries in our workplaces.

This episode provides guidance and advice for working with Indigenous people whether as a lawyer, judge or police officer. It also introduces you to the concept of cultural humility with the hope that you will practice humility as you commit to the hard work of transforming our justice system from one of "deliberate destruction" to one of fairness, equal representation and healing. 

TW: There is some discussion about exposure to graphic evidence and prosecuting crimes involving sexual violence.

This episode provides you with relationship building strategies and explores why you need to look within before you endeavour to help others. 

In this episode, Iain Smith shares how becoming trauma aware has changed his approach to practice and the way in which he relates to his clients. He also explains why justice systems everywhere need trauma informed education to effectively reduce crime and criminalization. CW: Some discussion of child abuse is had with no details provided. The focus of this episode is on  trauma awareness and how judges and lawyers can positively improve and redirect the lives of offenders by simply being kind and compassionate with them, and by recognizing how a history of childhood trauma may be influencing their criminal behaviour. 

In this episode, I sit down with personal injury lawyer Jordan Assaraf to discuss his role as co-counsel for the plaintiffs in the Ukraine Airlines case. Jordan shares his insights on the challenges of advocating for victims of large-scale tragedies and how his willingness to adapt has shaped his approach to trauma-informed legal work.

We explore:
🔹 The complexities of the Ukraine Airlines case and the commitment to do no further harm to the families of the victims
🔹 How Jordan’s background in personal injury law informs his work in mass litigation
🔹 The importance of a trauma-informed approach when working with survivors and their families
🔹 What it means to adapt as a lawyer in high-stakes, emotionally charged cases

Join us for a powerful conversation on justice, resilience, and the evolving role of legal professionals in supporting those impacted by tragedy. If you can join us at the Justice as Trauma Conference, visit www.myrnamccallum.co for more info and tickets. 

You can check out the Ukraine Airlines case and the trauma informed guidelines Jordan helped create here: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2024/2024onsc3303/2024onsc3303.html

Guest Bio:

Jordan Assaraf is a personal injury lawyer with extensive experience in complex litigation. His work on the Ukraine Airlines case reflects his commitment to advocating for those who have been harmed and ensuring a trauma-informed approach to legal representation. 

You can learn more about Jordan's work at www.gluckstein.com 

You can also read Jordan's blog post here: https://www.gluckstein.com/news-item/are-we-seeing-a-positive-paradigm-shift-in-our-justice-system--trauma-informed-trial-guidelines-for-ukraine-international-airlines-flight-752 

Gluckstein also has their very own podcast: https://www.gluckstein.com/resources/videos-and-podcasts 

Natalie Gutierrez, author of The Pain We Carry, Healing from Complex PTSD for People of Color, is a critical POC voice in a wellness space dominated by white trauma experts. Through her personal lens and professional lens as a Puerto Rican complex trauma therapist, Natalie explains how historical and cultural trauma is experienced by Black people, Indigenous people and People of Colour - and how cultural burdens and legacies inform our relationships and internal family systems. 

Natalie is remarkable and you can catch her among a line-up of powerful presenters at the upcoming Justice As Trauma conference, in Vancouver from April 3-5, 2024. Please visit https://www.myrnamccallum.co/justiceastrauma for details - and don’t forget to order her book, The Pain We Carry: Healing from Complex PTSD for People of Color. 

CW: our discussion briefly mentions suicide and murder

Bonus episode. Myrna gave a talk to the women of the Trial Lawyers Association of BC in Whistler, BC on October 22, 2022. She discussed boundaries, self-regulation, the consequences of never saying no and feeling like a smeagol in a room full of frodos. Enjoy! 

What does it mean to be visible in a job where you need to remain impartial? Today on the show, I speak with Michael Sonberg, a retired NYC judge who was one of the founding members of the International Association of LGBTQ+ Judges. We talk about Michael’s experiences as an openly gay judge and how the Association is helping to build community for LGBTQ2S+ members of the judiciary all over the world. We may be at the end of Pride Month, but pride and solidarity are a year-round practice. 

Gabor offers lawyers and judges an education in trauma and explains how his approach, compassionate inquiry, could be applied in the courtroom.

This episode includes a discussion about mental health, wellness, vicarious trauma, mindfulness, yoga and collective care practices among police officers within the Edmonton Police Service. 

Today's conversation is with Asha Frost, published author, speaker, spiritual mentor and modern day medicine woman. To learn more about Asha, please check out her website: www.ashafrost.com To learn more about the Justice as Trauma Conference, visit: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025

This episode touches on sensitive subject matter including sexual assault, suicide, PTSD, mental health and murder.

Myrna invites listeners/lawyers to reflect on what they offer and what they don't when engaging with clients, the courts and each other.

Judge Ginger Lerner-Wren describes her pathway to creating the first Mental Health Court in America and offers compelling insight into how education, understanding, compassion and dignity can transform lives for lawyers, judges and defendants who appear in her courtroom. This episode discusses mental illness, mental health, decriminalization and justice as healing. 

Exploring Racial Trauma and Transforming Justice with Robert Seymour Wright. Join Myrna McCallum, a Métis Cree lawyer and passionate advocate for trauma-informed lawyering, in this compelling episode of The Trauma-Informed Lawyer podcast. Myrna sits down with Robert Seymour Wright, a queer, African Nova Scotian social worker and sociologist, to discuss the profound impact of racial trauma and the importance of integrating trauma-informed practices within the legal profession.

Robert shares his remarkable journey and insights, shedding light on the systemic challenges faced by Black and Indigenous communities. He delves into the significance of Impact of Race and Culture Assessments (IRCAs) in the justice system, highlighting their role in addressing systemic racism and promoting fair sentencing. Robert's candid reflections on his personal experiences and professional mission provide a powerful narrative on resilience, advocacy, and the transformative potential of trauma-informed approaches.

Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the intersectionality of racial trauma, the importance of community, and the need for holistic support systems. Robert's engaging storytelling, combined with his profound knowledge and humor, makes this episode a must-listen for anyone committed to fostering a more equitable and compassionate legal system.

This episode introduces lawyers to the education they didn't know they needed to become effective, compassionate and relational advocates.

Dr. Amar Dhall shares his wisdom, insights and data on emotional intelligence and the art of living. The conversation is critical for those in occupations which value IQ over EQ. 

This episode is a reproduction of Myrna's closing Keynote for the 16th Annual Family Law Summit sponsored by the Law Society of Ontario and their Continuing Professional Development Department, originally delivered via Zoom on March 29, 2022.

Myrna discusses why psychological safety is an imperative in all our relationships and invites listeners to prioritize the same. She also shares a recent experience where no safety was present or promised, as well as, an entirely different experience with a group of Indigenous people who knew exactly how to hold a safe space for her and each other. 

Today's episode is a special one. I am sharing an episode of Ben Perrin's podcast, Indictment: the Criminal Justice System on Trial which can be found here: https://indictment.simplecast.com/ In the most recent episode of Indictment, Ben shares Harold Johnson's final public talk - and what a gift it is to listen to Harold one more time. 

For more info on the Justice as Trauma Conference, please check out: www.justiceastrauma.ca 

Below is a copy of Ben's show notes from the original Indictment episode: 

Powerful. Unflinching. Visionary. Hear Indigenous lawyer and author Harold Johnson (1957-2022) deliver his final public lecture powerfully indicting the Canadian criminal justice system and making an impassioned case for Indigenous justice. A member of the Montreal Lake Cree Nation, Harold was a Harvard-trained Crown prosecutor and criminal defence lawyer who quit practising law because of the harm it was causing Indigenous people. Instead, he devoted the rest of his life to advocating for Indigenous justice and developing and implementing initiatives to bring healing and restoration in Indigenous communities. This special episode was recorded live on November 8, 2021 at the UBC Peter A. Allard School of Law in Vancouver as Harold spoke to the entire first year class. Harold Johnson passed away three months later on February 9, 2022. His legacy and words live on.

Content Note: discussion of trauma, intimate partner violence, violence, suicide, death by impaired driving, substance use, colonial violence against Indigenous people including residential schools and incarceration. There is also mention of sexual violence. Click here for mental health support resources if you need support. 

Harold's book include:

Harold Johnson, Peace and Good Order: The Case for Indigenous Justice in Canada 

Harold Johnson, Firewater: How Alcohol Is Killing My People (and Yours)

Order your copy of Indictment: The Criminal Justice System on Trial  (Aevo UTP, 2023). Visit www.benjaminperrin.ca for the latest news and upcoming events. Thank you to Joan Johnson for permission to share this lecture. 

This episode addresses vicarious trauma in the legal profession and the personal traumas that can sometimes interfere with our ability to connect with each other and live in alignment with our core values. 

This episode reflects on an earlier episode called, The Duty to Do Better: The Law Student Version. Law professors and instructors offer their perspectives on teaching in a trauma-informed way, lawyer and law student mental health, and modern legal education in Canada and the USA. This conversation includes Claudia Pena (UCLA), Anna Lund (UofA), Sarah Katz (Temple Uni), Andrew Pilliar (TRU), Zara Suleman (UVic), Brittany Goud (UVic), and Jeffrey Meyers (TRU). 

This solo episode explores concepts of healing, humility, humanity and collective trauma put forward by Thomas Hubl, Sherri Mitchell, CJ Robert Bauman, US Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger and Nelson Mandela. 

Chantel Sparklingeyes offers criminal court actors advice on how to decolonize the unjust legal system known for its dehumanizing practices when working with Indigenous people as victims, survivors, offenders and witnesses. CW: This talk covers subjects of sexual abuse, IPV and intergenerational trauma.

In this powerful episode, we welcome the brilliant Nkem Ndefo, founder of Lumos Transforms and creator of The Resilience Toolkit. Nkem is a visionary leader in the fields of trauma-informed care, resilience, and organizational healing. Together, we explore the intersections of compassionate communication, trauma-informed leadership, and DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), offering insights that can transform not only our personal lives but also the way we lead and build workplaces and communities.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

- What resilience truly means and how to cultivate it in times of stress  

- How trauma-informed leadership can create healthier, more effective organizations  

- The power of compassionate communication in fostering meaningful connections  

- The role of DEI in creating sustainable, inclusive workplaces  

- Practical strategies for organizational healing and cultural transformation  

About Our Guest:

Nkem Ndefo is a certified nurse-midwife, trauma expert, and founder of Lumos Transforms. With a background in nursing, midwifery, and somatic healing, Nkem has dedicated her career to helping individuals and organizations navigate trauma, build resilience, and create systemic change through compassionate and sustainable practices. She will also be a featured speaker at the Justice as Trauma 2025 Conference in Vancouver, bringing her expertise to a global stage. For more info on this event, visit: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025

Resources & Links:

- Learn more about Nkem Ndefo and her work at [Lumos Transforms](https://www.lumostransforms.com)  

- Explore The Resilience Toolkit: [Resilience Toolkit](https://www.resiliencetoolkit.co)  

- Follow Nkem on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nkemndefo) and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lumostransforms)  

Join the Conversation:

Have thoughts on this episode? We’d love to hear from you! Share your reflections on social media using #ResilienceToolkit and tag us. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast—it helps more people find these important conversations!