How can retailers perform A/B testing of merchandise layouts in their stores without cost and without burdening store teams? By using Digital Twins, that’s how! So how does a retailer build a digital twin of their stores? Meet startup Site Bionics and founder and CEO, Adam Blair. It’s Part 3 of our #ShoptalkLive podcast cross-over series with This Week in Innovation and special guest host Jeff Roster, recorded live and in-person at Shoptalk!

In this episode, Jeff and regular host Ricardo Belmar sit down with Site Bionics CEO, Adam Blair, to learn how they are helping retailers solve merchandising and operational challenges via digital twins, dramatically reducing the cost of testing new store layouts. Plus, we learn how Site Bionics can even help validate coverage maps of loss prevention camera systems! Yes, Jeff and Ricardo have uncovered another trend at Shoptalk – using loss prevention camera infrastructure in multiple ways that will positively impact your revenue streams and lower your costs. It’s all in this episode!

We’re now standing at number 19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your regular hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

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TRANSCRIPT

S2E12c Digital Twins with Site Bionics

[00:00:00] Show Intro 

[00:00:20] Casey Golden: Hello Retail Razor Show listeners and viewers, and welcome to retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. I'm your host, Casey Golden.

[00:00:33] Ricardo Belmar: And I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar. Welcome to part three in our Shop Top Live crossover event with Jeff Roster, and This Week In Innovation podcast.

[00:00:42] Casey Golden: You guys really make me feel like I missed out on some great conversations. I think I'm getting more FOMO than our listeners here.

[00:00:51] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:00:52] Casey Golden: You are killing it with these amazing interviews. I have to come and join you guys next time, even though like I have no business [00:01:00] purpose to be there.

[00:01:02] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it would be amazing if you could make it, Casey, we definitely missed you on this. It was lots of fun to, to capture these sessions. So on today's show, we are talking about none other than digital twins. One of my favorite probably my, the favorite metaverse topic that isn't necessarily a metaverse topic.

[00:01:22] Casey Golden: Right. Well, I'm already hooked, so just tell me more. Spill it. Who did you guys chat with?

[00:01:30] Ricardo Belmar: So this time Jeff and I spoke with Adam Blair, c e o, and founder of Startup Site Bionics. And in this discussion we learned just how popular it is to use those loss prevention cameras in your store for so much more than loss prevention. I mean, this was the second startup we talked to that were tapping into those cameras as a resource for analytics.

[00:01:50] This time using them to help build a multi-layered digital twin of your store.

[00:01:54] Casey Golden: Interesting. And you guys uncovered a trend trend there. Wow. Like [00:02:00] not many people would've said those loss prevention cameras are so popular not too long ago.

[00:02:06] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Right. Exactly. So you, you'll also want to keep track throughout this discussion with Adam of just how many different use cases and questions you can answer about your store environment using this digital twin that you build with, with their solution and, and all the loss prevention cameras plus a few extra little add-ons that that I think are pretty clever that they do.

[00:02:25] Casey Golden: Well, let's not spend any more precious time talking about it. Let's get right into the discussion with you, Jeff and Adam Blair, c e o of Site Bionics, recorded live and in person at Shoptalk 2023.

[00:02:40] Site Bionics Interview

[00:02:40] Ricardo Belmar: ​hey everyone we are back at Shop Talk 2023, continuing our crossover event with This Week In Innovation. I'm Ricardo Belmar. I'm host of the Retail Razor Show and I am here with none other than the myth, the legend, Mr. Jeff Roster,

[00:02:59] Jeff Roster: [00:03:00] how you, how you doing today? I don't know about you, but I am dragging. I'm possibly, I went a little hard on the, on the evening research opportunities last night.

[00:03:08] Ricardo Belmar: Just a little, just a Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:10] Jeff Roster: little bit hard, but it was

[00:03:11] Ricardo Belmar: It's, it was, yeah. It's, it's what are we day three? Are we day three, day

[00:03:14] Jeff Roster: five. I tried to, I really was planning on being done by eight, but there was an event at the What Skyfall lounge, which was started at nine 30.

[00:03:24] Phenomenal. But boy, that got a little bit late Little 

[00:03:30] Ricardo Belmar: I hear you. I hear you. One, one more day to go. One more day. One more day to go. All right. All right. So the good news is we've got another great guest with us today. Jeff. We are here with Adam Blair and the CEO of Site Bionics, who's gonna tell us all about the cool things that he's working on over there.

[00:03:47] So Adam, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself here and dive in and give us your background and what Site Bionics is all about and what you know, what challenges are you solving for retailers and, and give us the scoop.

[00:03:58] Adam Blair: Sounds good. [00:04:00] Thanks for the intro. Yeah. At Site Bionics we're helping retailers make sense of their physical world.

[00:04:04] And what that means particularly is we're building digital twins for retail stores. And we, we view that as, just to be clear, cuz we, we you know, one of the things that you get into with digital twins is there's a lot of different uses of it.

[00:04:16] The different, it's an kind of an overloaded term. Right, right, right. We view the digital twin as a data, fundamentally a data model of the store. And it's a means of getting, taking the messy, unstructured, unstructured data that you get in a store when you have humans moving around doing what humans do.

[00:04:32] And and, and you try to make sense of it all. So yeah, for us, it, it actually getting into a little bit of how we do that, we start a little, we start by getting a, a sense of the site. So we have the means of going around and getting a physical rendering. So, to be clear, it's not sort of a metaverse play in that direct sense, right?

[00:04:50] Where we're just, you're not necessarily going into it. But we do have, for what it's worth, we do have a rendering that's like video game quality rendering of the space. But that's a tool it's a [00:05:00] tool that allows us to we, we can start there. We can help retailer to understand how the store is laid out whether or not their merchandising and their layout is matching what they expect from corporate and, and be able to feed that data back.

[00:05:11] And that's sort of our layer. Right. Then we have the ability to layer on to use existing cameras in the store as available and be able to add sort of our video analytics piece on top of that where you can track movement through the space. Right. And then we have an iot portion that can go beyond that too, where we can leverage on my, my pack background in, in R F I D particularly and, and other iot technologies and, and be able to.

[00:05:36] That and, and, and build really. So it's sort of these layers and we want to bring value to retailer to each of these layers, right? And but it's the full data source. That's really the thing. And, and, and then once you add that, you get that full system you get the learning that goes on top of it.

[00:05:51] And then you have the ability to move into higher levels of analytics where you're able to get a model and understand how things are behaving, why they're, why things are happening and, [00:06:00] and then help retailers better understand how to use their space and make the most of it.

[00:06:04] Building a Digital Twin

[00:06:04] Jeff Roster: So a couple questions right off the bat. How do you get the, the first rendering in, in layer one?

[00:06:10] Adam Blair: Yeah, we do that with it's, it's, it is using just a cell phone standard imagery. We have the ability and we, we've actually this is the piece we've built so far. We're, we're obviously very, we're very new startup.

[00:06:19] We've only been around for a couple months but this is a piece that we have, we developed the capability to go into a store and develop that rendering in about 15 minutes for like a mall size store. So yes. Yes,

[00:06:31] Jeff Roster: So who would actually do that? Would store associate level? I mean, just literally somebody just taking their phone and just videoing the the aisles and 

[00:06:37] Adam Blair: that's right. 

[00:06:38] Jeff Roster: Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:06:39] Adam Blair: Yeah. It's, it's, we don't want it to be specialized. We don't want to have to send our people in. We want to make that available to, you know, the, the people that are there for, for ease,

[00:06:46] Jeff Roster: Then I think in layer two, you said something about tying into existing cameras, is that the LP cameras or

[00:06:52] Adam Blair: we have the ability to do that. Yes. Or that, that's what we're working to build, I should say the, the, the DVR that's existing on the camera, right? I mean, we're, we're, we're very [00:07:00] sensitive about privacy. Right? That's a big, big deal for us. We mean that genuinely. So we don't, you know, we don't want to be storing any date, any, any image data.

[00:07:09] We wanna leverage the existing systems that, that are there.

[00:07:11] And so we would, yeah, we would be able to essentially connect in with the existing security system and, and be able to derive analytics from that.

[00:07:20] How Retailers Use Digital Twins

[00:07:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm, interesting. So tell us then a little bit about what kind of analytics you would expect a retailer to, to benefit from here, how would they use, so once you have the digital twin of the store, right. How are you expecting a, a retailer to use this?

[00:07:33] Adam Blair: Yeah, we're expecting I mean, it's, it's, look, we, we think that this if we can get to the full digital twin or when we get there, I should say that it, it can be used in, in all sorts of aspects of how they run the store. So and how they engage with their customers as well. Right? So it starts with making the most, the, the best use of the space that they have, right?

[00:07:50] Understanding how they wanna lay out a store, right? We would expect them to, in, in the long run, to be able to sort of model how they think it should work. Test it out, you might be able to [00:08:00] run AB testing in multiple stores, right. And, and, and really get to the next level of EF efficiency in sort of, in terms of the layout and, and merchandising.

[00:08:10] We expect to be able to understand that the full con, the, the full shopper path to purchase. We do believe we have the ability to tie that back to individuals as if they were to opt-in.

[00:08:19] They can opt in at any point in their journey, and the entire journey could be connected in. So you could start to actually conceive of a digital twin of the individual as they opt in and, and, and make better use of that.

[00:08:30] And then and then, and then operationally in, in terms of operational efficiency, right? Understanding how their staff are moving around, how they're, who they're interacting, when and why. And, and try to improve operations as well.

[00:08:41] So it's kind of, it can be kind of all things for all people. Right? I'm, I'm obviously sharing a vision here.

[00:08:46] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:08:47] Okay. Okay.

[00:08:48] What a Deployment Looks Like

[00:08:48] Jeff Roster: So what would a deployment look like?

[00:08:51] Adam Blair: That's a great question. Yeah. So the, the, the, the early deployment is you go in and you scan the store using our app which we, we are in the, we [00:09:00] we plan to productize, right? So you would go in and you would do that, that sort of first deployment, you'd connect into the back the, the security system just a computer in the back office kind of thing.

[00:09:09] And and that's, that's actually all you need, right? Because you have the, the imagery and the, the, the data. We have the ability to understand what's a fixture, what's what different product. And infer your merchandising plan and how it, how it's the store is laid out. And, and so that's, that's kind of all that's necessary to g to get going.

[00:09:27] We would be, you know, we would expect to be delivering dashboards and things like that. So your, your people in corporate, your merchandisers could actually interact with the store, right? You could actually lay it out in our tool set and drag and drop fixtures around and move them around in that way.

[00:09:40] And then, and then push that down to your in-store.

[00:09:44] You can get the, the feedback confirmation that the store has been laid out appropriately, and see how the behaviors adapt and how performance the store adapts.

[00:09:52] Jeff Roster: So you're getting live feed constantly out of the the LP cameras. right. Any issue with LP?

[00:09:59] Adam Blair: With, with [00:10:00] LP directly? It depends. I mean, it's gonna depend, it's gonna depend a lot on, on, on who, right?

[00:10:04] Jeff Roster: so easy to work with. I'm sure.

[00:10:06] Adam Blair: Very flexible. There is. Look, there's, there's absolutely a, a, a path in there with any, anytime. Look, anytime you put any computer system inside anybody's network, you have to be there's a process you have to go through. With lp it'll be more rigorous for sure.

[00:10:20] Like I said, we we're, we're totally open from a privacy perspective having, having the code, getting vetted right is, is totally, you know, among our expectations, right?

[00:10:31] Jeff Roster: Well, you know, Ricardo, that's interesting cuz that's the second, second startup we've talked

[00:10:34] Ricardo Belmar: That's right.

[00:10:35] Jeff Roster: tying in. So there's,

[00:10:36] there seems

[00:10:36] to be a trend

[00:10:37] Ricardo Belmar: trend here in leveraging that LP video

[00:10:39] Jeff Roster: 36 hours ago, if you would've said, You're gonna run stuff through the LP camera. I've said you're crazy, but, but I mean, obviously two, you know the last two folks we talked to, so Yeah.

[00:10:49] And it does make sense to sweat those assets. So

[00:10:51] Ricardo Belmar: right. No, I mean, it, it does because you, you've already got a lot of useful information there. You're already covering exactly what you want to see in the store, so [00:11:00] this is a great way of, of using that information to derive new data insights from it. 

[00:11:05] Adam Blair: In fact, one of, one of the, one of the potential early, early benefits you can have from this approach is you can actually get an, an immediate assessment of how good are your, is your security camera layout, right? Because we could show you exactly where in that 3D rendering you have coverage and where you do not. Right. 

[00:11:20] Ricardo Belmar: that's interesting.

[00:11:21] Interesting. 

[00:11:21] That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:23] Jeff Roster: Any sense right now what percentage of the store is covered? I would think in theory they would say a hundred percent, but obviously it can't be a hundred 

[00:11:30] Adam Blair: Yeah. Talk to the employees and see what they say. Right.

[00:11:33] where they take those hidden breaks. I, I don't actually have a sense for that. I mean, it, it's it's, and, and, and it's also the sort of thing again, we, we have the ability to go in and say where those holes are, how to fill them.

[00:11:44] The Digital Twin Vision

[00:11:44] Ricardo Belmar: So do you envision a retailer using this, so, you know, once you have that digital twin, they have the model that they're gonna do a lot of kind of what if and ab scenarios on, product placements on shelves, and rearranging things and doing some modeling with that before they push that down to stores.[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Adam Blair: Absolutely. I mean, I, I think that that's that, that's absolutely one of the expectations. The other way that I actually like to look about, look at it is you know, most retailers when they provide direction down to the stores, they're providing guidance. And there's different, retailers are different in terms of how much local control that they give, but I love the idea of giving a bit more local control. Right. You know, one, one of the retailers we spoke with about this, they had, they said that the reason they don't give more local control is that they found they don't trust the control at the retail at, at the, at the retailer, at the, at the local site.

[00:12:28] Right. They, they you know, the, the person that has best of intentions and, and the example that they gave us directly was then you end up with a beer next to the back to school section. Right.

[00:12:38] Jeff Roster: It might

[00:12:38] work. I don't know.

[00:12:39] Ricardo Belmar: I don't, I don't know if that's unintentional, that

[00:12:41] Jeff Roster: it would've worked at.

[00:12:42] Ricardo Belmar: exclusively as a parent. I don't know if that's unintentional.

[00:12:44] Jeff Roster: definitely would've worked at Chico State. Dropping a daughter off at San Diego State, it absolutely would've worked there.

[00:12:49] Adam Blair: Maybe a little off brand for the retailer though.

[00:12:51] Ricardo Belmar: Maybe just a bit. Yeah, maybe a little.

[00:12:53] Adam Blair: But, but, but, but you give that sort of control down and now you actually introduce some randomness into the larger system. And that's actually a good thing in this [00:13:00]case, because as long as you're able to measure and then close that feedback loop, when somebody goes and does something that's silly, you can, you'll see the behavioral changes of that.

[00:13:10] When somebody does something that's, that's surprisingly effective, you'll see those re results too and be able to understand why. And so then you can pull that data up to the corporate level and feed it down to all of your stores, and so you can, you know, create more of a, learn a much tighter, more effective learning cycle as a result.

[00:13:27] Ricardo Belmar: interesting. So I, I guess I have to ask, how did you come to this idea and what, what motivated you to create this solution. 

[00:13:35] Adam Blair: Yeah, so it's, it's I guess it, it came through through a, a, a path, a journey, I suppose. It actually started couple startups I've had now this is my third, my third startup. The previous two have been in overhead, R F I D.

[00:13:47] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. 

[00:13:47] Adam Blair: And and, and one in particular, the first one was we were partnered with Intel in, in their responsive retail platform from 

[00:13:54] Oh, okay.

[00:13:54] Years back.

[00:13:55] Ricardo Belmar: I remember that.

[00:13:55] Adam Blair: Yeah. And so one of the things that we found early on when we did some, some of our [00:14:00] early R F I D deployments, we were getting like 85% of the, the total I inventory that we could actually like read within about an hour of.

[00:14:09] we

[00:14:09] found if we just left it on running continuously for long periods of time though, and we added just a, a strong probabilistic algorithm on top of it, that we could actually infer the inventory you needed for the purposes of restocking to a 99% plus accuracy by just at any given moment, just running over an extended period of time.

[00:14:27] Because you could see the dynamics of the store. You could see how

[00:14:31] so I haven't read something for a day. It doesn't, is it more likely that it's outta stock or it's still here and it's just not readable? Or is it, is it gone? And so by applying that sort of that that sort of algorithm and that model on top of the store, we are able to make much better, much more effective use of the really messy data that we had.

[00:14:49] Right? So it, it started with that. As I got into talking to people in the computer vision space as well.

[00:14:54] They have similar problems, right? Where you have, it's very messy, very uncontrolled data. And so you [00:15:00] start applying these higher level algorithms to it, and you start to get to the better insights, right?

[00:15:04] You get, you start to answer the questions, you start to put yourself in a place where you can answer the questions that the retailers actually have, right? And, and to step back a little bit to the inventory question, ? Retailers don't really like, they think they want to know what, what is in their inventory list, right?

[00:15:21] But in reality they want to know, should I restock right now? Right? And, and what items should I be restocking when they want to know, can I ship this? Can I have somebody that's looking at this item online right now? Should I send them to the store to pick it up? Right? Those are two very simple, very, very different questions that are, you know, it's, it's somewhat arbitrary to ask them of the same list. Right? And so by building the more comprehensive model, you can get to something that can answer those real questions that are being asked of the store, right? And so that's how we think about it. We think about it as queering the digital twin for whatever information. And the, the digital twin will give you the best answer for that [00:16:00] question, given the full context of the store, right?

[00:16:04] If you're down to one umbrella, one umbrella, and you haven't sold them in a week, any, any in a week, right? You might be inclined to say, well, go ahead and send somebody that's 15 minutes away if I told you that it hadn't been raining in a week and it's raining now. Right? That answer's very different, So that's how we're looking at it, is the full context response.

[00:16:21] Jeff Roster: So who do you sell into in that regard? Is that, is that BI? Is that what is that?

[00:16:26] Adam Blair: Yeah, we think it's it, it, it's, it's most likely the cio ct CTO type level, right? Because we, we think about it in terms of the full data for the, for the, for the store. right? You think, we think about it in terms of you know, the, that the, the data source, because it, it, it is, it's a little bit tricky, right?

[00:16:42] Because it is a lot of potential users for any of this data within the, within the retail store, and, and we're thinking about it being the CEO or the CTO being the conduit into the rest of the retailer.

[00:16:52] Jeff Roster: Well, they'd be the one that buying it. But I mean, it it, where would I put that in my, in my tech stack? I mean, is that, is that business intelligence, is that I don't know, [00:17:00]video analytics, I guess. I mean that we've had that conversation too, it seems, seems pretty video in a lot of analytics. So are you comfortable with that sort of a classification. 

[00:17:08] Adam Blair: I mean, I think I'd prefer being more business in business intelligence than, than, I mean, I, I, I don't like it being the source of the data. I like it being the, the context of the data. But I, I, you know I think that's something we're gonna have to work through with the, the different retailers and how they're organizationally structured too.

[00:17:23] Right? Because sometimes the, the titles don't completely match the function.

[00:17:26] Jeff Roster: That makes sense

[00:17:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's, that does happen. That's true. Okay. . Well wow. I mean this is, I'm always fascinated by digital twin technology right now, as I think this is we're still sort of in early days on, on how retailers can leverage this kind of technology. What kind of questions can they answer by using it?

[00:17:43] Kind of your, your last example there, Adam, about, you know, how, how you can have just slight variation, right? Very different questions to answer. And by leveraging that digital twin, you can come up with an answer where the absence of that, you know, how, how many different systems do you have? To be able to figure out what the answer is that that's being [00:18:00] facilitated here.

[00:18:00] So I think this is really, really a fascinating space to watch. And Jeff, to your point, you know, now this is the second kind of conversation we, we've kind of come across where we're plugging into LP as a data source but using it in a pretty different, more creative way necessarily than, than we might otherwise think of.

[00:18:16] Jeff Roster: I w I am writing the email to my, our, our mutual friend Tony, to say,

[00:18:21] Ricardo Belmar: say are you thinking about this?

[00:18:22] Jeff Roster: just curious what, just so what the LP sense is on that. But

[00:18:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. So Adam, if somebody wants to reach out to you and, and find out more about what you're doing in Site Bionic, what's, how should they reach out to you?

[00:18:32] Adam Blair: Yeah. Honestly, best way is just reach out directly adam@sitebionics.com. Also on LinkedIn is always a good way to get in touch with me. And happy to have conversations. Right? We're early. The conversations are, are, are the greatest value. The building, the relationships is, is is the most important thing for us right now.

[00:18:47] Ricardo Belmar: Great. Fantastic. Well, Adam, thanks so much for joining us and we appreciate you taking the time out to meet with us, and we'll be, we'll be watching out to see how things progress for you.

[00:18:56] Adam Blair: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:18:57] Jeff Roster: Outstanding. Thanks. Bye.

[00:18:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:19:00] bye everyone. 

[00:19:00] Show Recap

[00:19:00] Casey Golden: Well, welcome back everyone. And wasn't that an interesting take on digital twins? Did you catch the ever important reference to computer vision? 

[00:19:15] Ricardo Belmar: Yep, I did too. I did too. And this was a short but sweet session that we had with Adam. I mean, they are really leaning into helping retailers answer tough questions about their store, ranging from merchandise layouts to just general operations. I mean, having that digital twin opens a door to so many possibilities and AB tests that you can run without having to spend the time and effort to physically change it in the store and know what kind of results you're going to get. And this is just why I've been a big proponent of digital twins, is that one super important and practical use case for metaverse applications today.

[00:19:50] Casey Golden: I agree. I don't think a lot of people know how much we have been doing physical twins in the [00:20:00] industry, like building the whole entire area of your Macy's shop and shop somewhere else to flo, do floor sets and and, and not just one, but you know, 30 retailers where their floors going, how that set's gonna look.

[00:20:14] Stack heights. I think that I mean, we'd have whole teams that flew in to go ahead and, and play with that before the merchandise plans went out. Having these spaces from your stores into like throughout the whole entire process. It's just, it's, there's so, there's such a money savings here that if you can turn those cameras from a cost center to generating revenue,

[00:20:40] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly.

[00:20:41] Casey Golden: How awesome is that?

[00:20:43] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly.

[00:20:43] Casey Golden: most times when we think of like a digital twin, everybody thinks that it's avatar clothing,

[00:20:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right,

[00:20:48] Casey Golden: right? Which I love. But I think that there's, there's so many different applications that where we spend millions of dollars every season [00:21:00] that could be recaptured and spent elsewhere by using these different types of digital twins in different ways of like visualizing Even just traffic pattern.

[00:21:11] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, E. Exactly, exactly. I mean, just think of all the what if scenarios you can do, like you were saying, right? Where before you could have a team of people take days, right. To experiment and try different options, different layouts. And now you just put 'em in that, in the digital twin you can see exactly, you can do a fly through, and and kind of walk through that virtual space, see what it, what it's gonna look like to you and decide maybe that's not the option you want. I mean, it it, and it really does turn that whole cost center of having to absorb the cost of making those changes. Now it's something that helps you get to revenue faster, right?

[00:21:41] Because now you, you can implement the changes. You'll know what the outcome is gonna be. You've predicted it. And now when you're asking the store teams to go and do these things, it's not an experiment anymore. Now, you know that you're doing something that's gonna have a positive impact right to your, your revenue stream. So it just makes so much sense. I really believe people should be [00:22:00] adopting this more and more. So I think that Adam is on to a good, a really good solid application here with Site Bionics, and we hope to see more of them in the future.

[00:22:08] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, cutting lead time is, is a really big

[00:22:12] Ricardo Belmar: Huge. 

[00:22:13] Casey Golden: So what's coming up next in this series? We've got one more to go, right?

[00:22:17] Ricardo Belmar: that's right. We've just got one more in the series and sure enough, this is probably my favorite of the set. You know, at the start of the series I teased that it was a follow up to that popular discussion we recorded at N R F. We did run into a few difficulties, however.

[00:22:32] Casey Golden: Difficulties. Okay. I didn't realize there was gonna be a mystery attached.

[00:22:37] Ricardo Belmar: Well, remember the TRI chat that Jeff and I had with Vicki Cantrell and Ron Thurston at nrf, the one that was supposed to be a a 10 to 15 minute discussion that turned into an almost an hour.

[00:22:48] Well, yep. Well, we all agreed to do that same chat again at Shop Talk. But we did run into some scheduling challenges.

[00:22:56] Sure enough, we were all so busy there was only one time slot that we could [00:23:00]manage to, to get together and, and RETHINK Retail was kind enough to let us use their booth space at Shop Talk to do this recording. So we planned it for the end of, I think it was day two at the show. But sure enough, that was also the time that Shop Talk had their happy hours scheduled on the expo floor.

[00:23:16] And I mean, literally as soon as Jeff and I got to the Rethink booth and we were about to start setting up the recording equipment, suddenly we. All kinds of loud music starts blasting over the speakers because, you know, it's happy hour time, so it's time to put some music on the, on the show floor. I guess that was part of the entertainment.

[00:23:33] So as you might guess, there was just no way we could record any audio under those conditions with all that background music playing. So we ended up deciding, okay, let's regroup. The week after the show, we'd all have some time to digest what we saw. Think about it. And we just do it a normal remote recording.

[00:23:50] And so this last episode was not exactly recorded in person, but as a bonus it does mean that there's gonna be full video for everybody to watch this time.

[00:23:58] Casey Golden: Well, that's [00:24:00] a fantastic way to close out the series and I'm sure it'll definitely be worth it. Now there's expectations that everybody's done their homework. So,

[00:24:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, maybe I set that up a little too strongly. I hope, I hope we meet everyone's expectations now that I said that. But, but for now I, I'm just gonna thank Adam Blair for joining Jeff and me for this recording that we just went through at Shop Talk. Thank you, Adam. We will definitely be watching for Site Bionics' progress over the rest of the year.

[00:24:27] Casey Golden: and on that note, Ricardo, this can only mean one thing. It's a wrap.

[00:24:33] Show Close

[00:24:33] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed this season's shows, especially our podcast crossover miniseries, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Plus, remember, you can watch us, not just listen on our YouTube channel and like, and comment there.[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] If you wanna know more about what we talked about today, including a full transcript of the episode, take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[00:25:10] Ricardo Belmar: If you'd like to connect with us and share your thoughts on this season and the crossover series, follow us on Twitter at Casey C Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter and LinkedIn at Retail Razor for the latest updates. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:25:27] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:25:32] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail if you cut through the clutter. Until next time. This is the retail Razor Show. 

It’s a new year, and after wrapping up another NRF Big Show, we felt it was time to share our Top 10 Predictions for retail and retail tech in 2023! What will retailers focus on this year? How will consumer shopping and buying habits change? From the evolution of retail media networks and loyalty programs, to web3, the metaverse, and ChatGPT, what technologies make the cut and deserve your attention? Hosts Ricardo and Casey cut through the clutter and give you their top 10 trends for 2023 in this episode. See if their predictions match yours and let us know on LinkedIn!

Plus, our new segment, Retail Razor Data Blades returns, with another special data insight from Georgina Nelson, CEO of TruRating, learned from their 100,000’s of point-of-sale customer survey polls. In this episode learn how aligning with consumer values still plays a critical role in consumer buying decisions!

News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show was a finalist for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during the NRF Big Show 2023!

News alert #2! We’ve moved up to #18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list - please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! Leave us a review & be mentioned in future episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, Overclocked, and Tech Lore, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

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Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

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Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S1E9 Top 10 Predictions for 2023

[00:00:00] Ricardo Belmar:

[00:00:20] Show Intro

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to season two, episode nine of The Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:26] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome retail show listeners to retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike.

[00:00:38] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey, this is the moment many of our fans have been waiting for.

[00:00:43] It's time for our top 10 retail predictions for 2023, and as a huge bonus, we are recording live and in person in New York City right after the end of the N R F big show. We're literally sitting face-to-face and we never get to do that for this show.

[00:00:59] Casey Golden: never, I [00:01:00] mean, we're always sitting face to face from the shoulders up, 

[00:01:02] Ricardo Belmar: and a little square on a screen, but,

[00:01:06] Casey Golden: I can't think of a better way to wrap up NRF than sharing our hot takes live.

[00:01:10] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. We don't often get to do this live and in person.

[00:01:13] Retail Razor Data Blades - "How aligning with consumer values still plays a critical role"

[00:01:13] Ricardo Belmar: But first, it's time for the newest segment of our show Retail Razor Data Blades, where we talk real world numbers and slice through measurable consumer insights. It's a bit like, show me the math so I understand where this data's coming from and bringing us that slicing and dicing of data is Georgina Nelson, CEO of TruRating.

[00:01:30] TruRating is changing the way retailers track how customers feel against how they spend with an innovative multi-channel feedback solution with an average of 80% response rate from consumers. Georgina will share with us some key data points and offer a bit of insight into what's behind those numbers based on their extensive customer survey data at the point of sale.

[00:01:48] Casey Golden: Welcome, Georgina.

[00:01:50] Georgina Nelson: Thank you so much for having me!

[00:01:52] Casey Golden: So today's Retail Razor Data Blade segment is "how aligning with customer values still plays [00:02:00] a critical role".

[00:02:01] Georgina Nelson: So, yeah, to that point, we wanted to really find out what was driving consumers loyalty behavior. As you know, as a time when retailers are, are feeling the, the pinch of inflation as of their shoppers. You know, we can often get to this race to the bottom where prices are slashed in desperation to, to try and win that customer loyalty.

[00:02:25] And so we, we asked some simple questions as to what was driving that loyal behavior. Interestingly, we found just over smidgen, over 50%, so 51% of consumers said they were influenced by their loyalty card and by money off vouchers. , but a staggering 77% said what actually drives their behavior and their loyalty is whether their retailers' values resonate with them and they affiliated with it.

[00:02:56] And so I think in this modern time of loyalty, [00:03:00] you know, that sends a really clear message for retailers to understand what values do their customers really affiliate with and how can they market those to them and ensure that that's understood and really build that, build that bond with their consumer base.

[00:03:17] Casey Golden: Yeah, really backs up the, you know, communicate your brand and your values. Stop talking about price.

[00:03:24] Georgina Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, even just recently, we've still seen that over 75% of US consumers. They do want to buy ecologically sound products. They do want to buy organic when those choices are available. And so it's really to retailers, you know, don't scrimp on these initiatives just because times might be toughed because consumers are still are looking for those.

[00:03:50] And looking for that stance in values to make their choices.

[00:03:54] Casey Golden: Yep.

[00:03:55] Ricardo Belmar: Georgina, it seems like for this to really be [00:04:00] beneficial for the retailers that are going to, like your data, is suggesting that they need to lean into this and, and not stop investing. They'd have to really understand how to communicate that to their customers to, to make it really worthwhile and beneficial.

[00:04:14] Georgina Nelson: Yeah, I, you know, I think strategies need to be, it's not like a blanket one, one email, one shot in the dark. We really need to have a nuanced understanding of the customer base and what drives that loyalty. And then that needs to be communicated across a website, across product placements, across brand messaging.

[00:04:36] And I think what's important is that, you know, all customers are not alike. You know, there's gonna be a mix. And what we see is that mix is more, you know, is obviously very prevalent at a store level. In terms of each store is a snowflake with different customer segmentation and really beginning to understand that at a store level, how you know, and testing and asking [00:05:00] customers now how have your, you know, have they understood the green initiatives which you are pushing?

[00:05:07] Do they understand the drive on organic produce in, you know, understanding that awareness and then being able to tailor. Better coms and better marketing is absolutely key. And and we recommend doing that at a granular store level.

[00:05:23] Casey Golden: I couldn't agree more. Well, that does it for another edition of Retail Razor Blades.

[00:05:28] Georgina Nelson: Does this mean I get to keep the segment intro music every time? I'm on the show.

[00:05:34] Ricardo Belmar: I, I think we can arrange that

[00:05:36] Georgina Nelson: Thank you so much both.

[00:05:38] Casey Golden: Absolute pleasure.

[00:05:39] So now let's get right to those predictions. Ricardo, what would you say there are any underlining themes that we'll see across our 10 predictions?

[00:05:53] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think there are at least two big themes. One would be the impact of the economy, of course, [00:06:00] that's having on retailer investments and consumer shopping habits, and I think the second is frankly, gen Z.

[00:06:05] We'll see how Gen Z's shopping and buying habits are gonna have a bigger impact this year than they have in past years.

[00:06:11] Prediction #1 - Private Label take over

[00:06:11] Casey Golden: Let's dive into number one. Private label is taking over our shelves. You all know that I love a good brand and I'm a label of label lover, but a lot of products have become brand neutral with the help of the homogenization of marketplaces, like Wayfair and Amazon marketing convenience over the brands that they carry. Many private label brands are actually in our cupboards without even knowing it.

[00:06:41] Margin is king, especially during these uncertain economic environments. Retailers need the most control over the product assortment and the bottom line. Finding a lot of Gen Z doesn't have the brand loyalty in CPG that a lot of other generations do. 

[00:06:58] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, I think that's [00:07:00] probably a key one right there too. Especially after a year of inflation consumers want lower cost options, but everyone still wants high quality. Nobody wants to go down in price and then get something that's just too cheap and not good enough. But I think the big difference that you just pointed out, it's, gen Z doesn't seem to care about brand loyalty, especially not with, with CPGs, might be a slightly different story if we're talking apparel or home goods. But I think at the end of the day, unless you're buying on the high end luxury side of home goods, most people don't care what the brand name is on it. It's just whatever looks good and feels good to them. When it's apparel, it all depends on who we're talking about.

[00:07:35] Department stores for sure, probably would love to have a third of their sales or more be their own private labels, but the fact is a lot of 'em haven't traditionally been good enough for most buyers, but Gen Z doesn't seem to care.

[00:07:46] Casey Golden: No. I mean, gosh, Shein did like a billion dollars in sales 

[00:07:49] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, exactly.

[00:07:50] Exactly. So , so, so what does that say? So yeah, I think that that's a, that's definitely a, a good number one to kick off the list. 

[00:07:58] Prediction #2 - Retail Media Network evolution 

[00:07:58] Ricardo Belmar: So let me take us to number two, [00:08:00] which for me is, is a big one. And everybody knows I love talking about this topic, and that's retail media networks and how they're gonna evolve. 

[00:08:07] This year it's all gonna be about the, in-store media experience and how that gets combined with all the digital channels to really make a, a good end-to-end media experience that retailers can sell to brands. So, everyone likes to debate this a little bit because it seems like a trend and yes, we all know that Amazon has the majority of the share, but the fact is even if a retailer can get one percent, of this total media network share.

[00:08:33] Those are big numbers and, and they're big numbers that come with big margins, so it really is helpful.

[00:08:39] for a

[00:08:40] retailer, and if, if we look at some relevant context to this, I mean, you've got a lot of things that are going on that make this special. I mean, one, there's all the first party data that retailers are getting from these media networks, and that's huge.

[00:08:51] That lets them deliver really strong return on the a on advertising spend, right? Good ROAS for the brands. And one of the things we heard during nrf, that's a [00:09:00] big trend on this that I a hundred percent agree with. You know, you've got a decline in TV advertising in general. We've got cookies going away and, and we've got just in general, right, the digitization of the store.

[00:09:10] All this stuff kind of combines to make it super attractive to actually put media bys and advertising at the point at which a customer makes a buying decision. So why would this not increase?

[00:09:22] And there's even, I think more from that, I mean, you know, people also like to debate where is the, where are these dollars coming from?

[00:09:28] You know, brands look at all these media networks and as a brand say, oh, do I have to spend now on 20 different retail networks in addition to all the other ads spend? I have? Well, well, maybe they do, but the truth is right, they're gonna shift the spend a little bit. So it, the, the answer is, you know, when you ask where do the dollars come from?

[00:09:43] Well, pretty much everywhere else, it's not a retail media network. But I think probably the biggest threat is to Facebook or Meta and to Google because it's their ad dollar spend that's gonna go to these retail media networks, Amazon and everybody else.

[00:09:54] Casey Golden: 100 Percent. They're already, brands have already and been shifting these [00:10:00] budgets and not by a hundred thousand dollars, but like numbers.

[00:10:04] 875,000 for those month

[00:10:06] Ricardo Belmar: it's big numbers. It's big numbers. And when you roll in, the more advanced networks, they're gonna have tie-ins to streaming tv. They're gonna have connections into, players like Netflix, Hulu, and everybody that are gonna tie into it.

[00:10:18] And it's all comes down to audience data, right? And, and when you start applying this in-store, let's remember that 85 percent of all retail sales still happen in stores. So this isn't just an e-commerce play anymore. This is about doing what, you know, Doug Stephens and others used to talk about the store as, as theater, the store as media.

[00:10:36] Well, this is the year that we're really gonna start to see that because of these retail media networks and, and I think the last thing I'll add to it is, The end goal isn't just, I think the media network. The end goal is for the retailer to introduce a collection of B2B services. They can sell to brands or, and even to other retailers.

[00:10:54] So, sure, Walmart's the obvious first one to do it because of their size and scale. But that doesn't mean that, Best [00:11:00] Buy, couldn't do it or, or any other large enough retailer couldn't take exactly what they're doing in these services, bundle 'em up and sell 'em as a package. They're gonna have so much more first party customer data.

[00:11:11] Every brand wants access to that.

[00:11:13] Casey Golden: I agree. And everybody's spent a lot of money over the last decade on creating their audience and all of their customer data. So this is just another monetization strategy that they can go ahead and not put it all just into the individual products that they're selling.

[00:11:29] Ricardo Belmar: That's right, that's right. And, and I'll just repeat again, one reason why I think this is such a, a major thing for the year, the margin is better than just selling products to consumers. So while it might not be, you know, it might only be a fraction of your total. Sales volume, it comes with a good margin.

[00:11:45] So it just helps the financials for the retailer. 

[00:11:48] Prediction #3 - Returns management is a top IT investment

[00:11:48] Ricardo Belmar: So speaking of things that help the financials for the retailer, let's go on to number three. And I think that's all about returns management becoming a top IT investment. [00:12:00] Particularly powered with AI-based solutions because every retailer has an issue with returns right now.

[00:12:05] It's not just because of of growing e-commerce buy, it's because it's just the new habits that consumers have had to buy more than what they need in return, what they don't after they decide. But this has caused massive logistics challenges for retailers. Huge cost impact. And it's one thing to say we just need to get consumers to not return things.

[00:12:25] But the fact is you can't just change those buying habits for, for consumers, you need to really look at it and say, well, what can I do to prevent the cause of the return in the first place? So, yes, we all know that this is hardest to do in apparel because we still have issues with fit. There's new fit tech coming around.

[00:12:43] We've seen some players in that. More and more of that is gonna be made available until that gets solved it's gonna be a real challenge to, to improve this situation in apparel. But if we look at any other product category, I think the key is retailers investing in solutions that are going to help them understand why the [00:13:00] returns are happening and then make adjustments.

[00:13:01] And it might even be in some cases, as simple as your product page description on your e-commerce isn't good enough. And people are buying it by, because without realizing it's not what they want in the first place,

[00:13:11] Casey Golden: a hundred percent better images, I'm seeing more 3D images, I'm seeing more videos available on the products. And I think that was pretty much the, one of the main topics that I heard from over the last week has all been about returns.

[00:13:26] We need to control our returns, we need to reduce our returns. And I think, you know, we still have to remember, too, every single time that package hits the doorstep and we pick it up, we get a dopamine hit, We really don't need what's in the box. We just wanted that dopamine hit. So there's, you know, there's that, too, 

[00:13:45] Ricardo Belmar: too there's, that too. 

[00:13:45] Casey Golden: some consumer buying behavior here that has caused some, a little bit of package addiction.

[00:13:50] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. And that has a, a huge sustainability impact. So as we see retailers lean in more into sustainability issues and control than ha controlling that [00:14:00] returns problem is a big, big part of their sustainability process.

[00:14:04] So, so that's definitely, I think gonna be a huge, again, huge area of investment is this.

[00:14:08] Casey Golden: Yeah. If you're a brand or a retailer and you have a a 35% online return rate, you're not alone

[00:14:15] that's right, 

[00:14:15] Ricardo Belmar: that's right, that's right. And, and that's, you know, at the risk of the new pun intended, but it's just not sustainable to keep having those high return rates.

[00:14:23] Casey Golden: Not unless you got a 60% conversion rate.

[00:14:26] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:14:27] Prediction #4 - Store Automation for Frontline Workers 

[00:14:27] Ricardo Belmar: So I'm gonna move on to number four. Continuing this little mini theme on where the investment dollars are going and technology, let's talk about store automation and how that's going to help frontline workers and store operations. Why?

[00:14:40] Because the, that labor shortage retailers have had this past year. It's not going away. It's not going away this year. There's still an issue of you don't have the staff that you want, which means you need that store team to be more efficient in what they're doing, more productive, but you also need to retain them.

[00:14:55] And retaining them means you need to make the environment better and and more [00:15:00] interesting, more enjoyable for them. So what are you gonna invest? When you're gonna invest in technology? Is it help get rid of all those mundane tasks that everybody doesn't want to do because they're not complicated, they're just kind of routine and they're tedious.

[00:15:12] Find ways to automate and get rid of all, all

[00:15:14] Casey Golden: mine. We all wanna walk the aisles and do a price change.

[00:15:18] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. Which, so, so things like electronic shelf labels comes into play here? I mean, that's not even a new technology, right? It's been around for a while, but because of the cost, no one's had a motivation to put it in.

[00:15:29] Now we're starting to see a lot more interest in that because it takes that job away from the store team so they don't have to deal with it and they can do more work in front of a customer. Workforce management, right? More investment in shift management. Let your employees manage their schedules.

[00:15:42] That's what every store team employee wants is flexibility in their schedule. Just give it to them. Put the tools in place, let all your store teams work with a mobile device, have the right tools on it. And then there's new things. We, we've talked on this show before about store associates leading your live streaming efforts from the store, especially in [00:16:00] smaller retailers.

[00:16:00] There are plenty of associates who are good at this and who probably already have their own livestream effort on YouTube or something on their own time. So why not take advantage of those skills, put those skills to work, which by the way, is gonna make that job more interesting.

[00:16:14] Exactly. For those story searches. Yeah.

[00:16:15] Casey Golden: it, it makes it a longer job retention because what used to be like, well, I'm gonna do this for a year. It turns into potentially five years and moving actually into your marketing department, 

[00:16:27] Ricardo Belmar: right? Which gives you a career path. And the whole goal is to make those jobs, not just jobs, but to turn it into a career path so that this is an area and a field that people want to work in now.

[00:16:38] And that's is gonna start with this, this new level of investment in these technologies this year.

[00:16:42] Casey Golden: I agree. I sure know. I expect people to know about the product when we walk up to them. Can't do that if they, they don't 

[00:16:50] Ricardo Belmar: it. Absolutely. And they gotta have access to the data and the information or, or they, they're, you can't expect them to know everything as the retailers, so you gotta put the information

[00:16:58] Casey Golden: Yeah, it's gotta be fine.

[00:16:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:17:00] Accessible. Exactly. 

[00:17:02] Prediction #5 - BNPL explodes even more

[00:17:02] Casey Golden: B N P L. 

[00:17:04] Ricardo Belmar: Number five 

[00:17:05] Casey Golden: Explodes or implodes. We'll see. But this holiday, B N P L got a big boost mostly from Gen Z. Regulators have started to look into this in 2022, but the debt this is causing could potentially, catch up in 2023. But we're seeing that they are expanding their businesses beyond their core, buy now, pay later product by launching new revenue channels, implementing new solutions, or even making new acquisitions.

[00:17:41] To become more than just a BNPL, but to be a marketplace, to be managing customer acquisition and getting more brands and products through as a connection point, I think we'll definitely also see more sustainability and wellness for financial literacy and, and [00:18:00] financial wellness tools to increase that engagement and, you know, potentially mitigating some of the regulatory concerns.

[00:18:07] But I think we'll, we'll definitely see something here mature as a product and a, and a space in general and could be a better opportunity for more brands to actually be exposed to some new customers and customer acquisition much like a, a marketplace.

[00:18:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think that, I think that one makes sense. And there's definitely, you know, again, that Gen Z connection o over the holidays for this one. I, I think you're right. We, we kind of predicted that last year.

[00:18:36] It didn't totally happen the way we thought it would or as quickly as we thought. So I think it's, it's fair we're kind of shifting in a little bit to this year because it, it's just inevitable at this point. I, I think the more this grows, the more attention it's gonna get, the more of the financial stability issues matter for consumers. So it's gonna get looked at. And I think to their credit, right, the BM p l providers that they know this is coming and that's why they're all [00:19:00] kind of protecting themselves at expanding beyond that core. Like you said, Casey turning into marketplaces,

[00:19:05] Casey Golden: they've changed their narratives. 

[00:19:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:19:06] I mean I think at the end of the day you can kind of say buy now, pay later in of itself probably wasn't an entire business, it was a

[00:19:13] Casey Golden: It was

[00:19:13] feature. so Right. 

[00:19:14] Ricardo Belmar: gotta be part of something else and, and that's what drove a lot of those acquisitions.

[00:19:18] Casey Golden: it was a feature, not necessarily the, the

[00:19:20] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly.

[00:19:21] Casey Golden: And just coming outta holiday, we've got a, and then going into what many would associate as like a recession or an economic downturn. There's a lot of debt sitting out there. There's multiple players.

[00:19:34] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:19:35] Casey Golden: So 

[00:19:36] Ricardo Belmar: definitely, definitely.

[00:19:37] Prediction #6 - CDP explosion

[00:19:37] Ricardo Belmar: All right, Casey, bring us to number six. 

[00:19:40] Casey Golden: Well, it's 2023 and everyone's a C D P. A term that, there was a few of us that knew what A C D P was, you know, three years ago.

[00:19:49] Now its seems to be everybody is a C D P. . And at the same time, nobody knows what a CDP is.

[00:19:54] Ricardo Belmar: is. . That's right. . It's so true. That's so true.

[00:19:57] That's so true.

[00:19:58] Casey Golden: So everyone [00:20:00] is, you know, essentially brands are continuing to build their own from scratch. While the marketplace landscape creates more sophisticated products these consumer data platforms create a persistent, a more unified consumer database and make this data accessible to other systems.

[00:20:16] Really pulling in from all of these multiple sources, being able to have this, single customer profile and really be able to manage consumer data to support compliance and governmental regulation requirements. This is definitely becoming a bigger and bigger concern over privacy and security, consumer data loss and, and protection in general.

[00:20:37] It's definitely a high priority for all retailers and brands right now, and even SaaS companies that are processing consumer data. But I think here is where we'll also see a big uptake in more productized solutions coming in with different AI and ML use cases that can be powered [00:21:00] because of the efforts going into scrub all of this data and create these, single API to be able to access it.

[00:21:10] And I think it's gonna be able to drive a lot of personalization going forward.

[00:21:16] So I am very excited about this trend.

[00:21:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I agree. I agree. And I think you're, you're absolutely right that that , while everybody's either wants to be a CDP or claims to be a cdp, there's still a lot of confusion over exactly what is a customer data platform.

[00:21:30] When you talk to retailers and understanding what, what can you do with it? What am I gonna use it for, and what's the right solution out there for it? And there are different, different products or different needs, just like in any other category, but this is definitely one that when you look at, like you're saying, anything related to all requirements around privacy and data security.

[00:21:48] There are new regulations, variations by state, by country you know, it's just becoming really hard to manage all of this. So if you don't have the right platform underneath it all, then how are you really ever gonna comply [00:22:00]with everything? Not to mention, before you even get to how you're using all this data and your own marketing efforts to consumers

[00:22:05] Casey Golden: Exactly. Just getting it in one place is one thing. Exactly. And being able to make an edit or a change or validate.

[00:22:11] These are not simple builds.

[00:22:14] Ricardo Belmar: right? Yeah, yeah. These

[00:22:15] Casey Golden: heavy 

[00:22:16] Ricardo Belmar: builds. That's right. 

[00:22:17] Casey Golden: And this, this is gonna be involv. 40 different other software companies that are plugging 

[00:22:22] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. That's right. That's why 

[00:22:24] Casey Golden: may or may not be new.

[00:22:25] Yeah. 

[00:22:25] Ricardo Belmar: So making the right choice is, is super important. And just making sure you have a good c d p is absolutely critical. Now it's, I think this, what we're saying, I guess we're saying this is the year that it becomes table stakes as you just have to have 

[00:22:37] Casey Golden: this

[00:22:38] yes. This is not, also not a fail fast product.

[00:22:41] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. That's right. 

[00:22:44] Prediction #7 - Loyalty program evolution 

[00:22:44] Ricardo Belmar: All right, Casey, give us number seven,

[00:22:46] Casey Golden: Loyalty. Loyalty. Loyalty programs are definitely going to be evolving beyond a point system or a punch card. I've never seen loyalty take such [00:23:00] a center stage as I have in the, the last probably four months of conversations and going into 2023. Retention, retention, retention, retention.

[00:23:10] And I think that all kind of goes back to the CPM cost the lack of performance from Facebook ads, the marketing costs lower conversion rates, and really being able to engage your customer. , we're seeing more paid tiers as a new revenue source for a lot of brands to pay more for better service or, or additional perks.

[00:23:31] And there's the web three evolution for the NextGen loyalty programs. And I think this is very interesting because there are so many. How do you communicate and how do you manage these VIPs online and in-store across different locations? via email

[00:23:51] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's gonna work 

[00:23:52] Casey Golden: well.

[00:23:52] Right? You know, I mean

[00:23:53] Ricardo Belmar: E emails that they're likely to ignore. 

[00:23:54] Casey Golden: Right? Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, we really go back to a email communication with our customer, [00:24:00] which is always one-sided. And so managing loyalty programs, potentially just by email not the best utility. And I see a lot of opportunity here with the blockchain and leveraging these different web three types of loyalty programs to manage this much better.

[00:24:21] And with Unlockables, I think that there's a lot of room here to grow and I think it's one part of Web three that makes sense for retail because we don't have 10 VIPs. , we have 1.5 million globally.

[00:24:38] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. I think this is one of our more interesting predictions, as well, but kind of putting it in context, what do you think then of what Starbucks is doing?

[00:24:48] Casey Golden: I love Starbucks. I've never used a loyalty at Starbucks. I pay full price since I should have bought stock when I was like 10. I should own a

[00:24:56] Ricardo Belmar: right? . 

[00:24:56] Casey Golden: So I mean, I think that what they've done is great. I'm a big fan [00:25:00] of the vendor that they're using. Of course, I think we all are right. But I, I love the fact that they just moved on web three and went on with the loyalty program and really focusing on the retention piece because when you are a regular, you are a regular, not for a year, but like 20,

[00:25:16] Ricardo Belmar: right?

[00:25:17] That's right. 

[00:25:18] Casey Golden: You know? 

[00:25:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. We're talking real loyalty. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And, and we know from, not even considering that the web three. evolution of this, which I think is going to have huge impact. But when you look at the most successful loyalty programs, right, I, I will call Starbucks existing one, one of those.

[00:25:34] I mean, Ulta Beauty's loyalty program is massively successful. Like huge, almost all of their customers are in that loyalty program. So it'll be interesting to see how they evolve it. But this is, I, I think this is a big one, and, and. . I, I would stress too, you, you mentioned that, the idea of having paid tiers and full membership programs as part of these loyalties, so loyalty is finally becoming more than just a discount.

[00:25:55] And, and I think now it's, yeah,

[00:25:56] Casey Golden: And this is a way to actually make it a club tier [00:26:00] and manage it, because otherwise you're managing it literally in email segments,

[00:26:04] Ricardo Belmar: emails that just get ignored.

[00:26:05] Casey Golden: You just, they just get ignored. And it's just, it's not scalable solution. And I think that this could be, Really, really compelling to be able to scale one your own loyalty program, but to be able to collaborate with other people's loyalty programs.

[00:26:20] So what if Starbucks loyalty program communicated to Ulta's loyalty program? And this is where Web three can play 

[00:26:29] Ricardo Belmar: very 

[00:26:29] Casey Golden: interesting, is it 

[00:26:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:26:31] Casey Golden: the collaboration's a 

[00:26:33] Ricardo Belmar: these an, an even more useful and, and valuable club like relationship

[00:26:38] Casey Golden: Yeah. I'm not exporting my, my email list and giving it to you. It's against yeah, it's against compliance.

[00:26:43] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. customer data. Yep. 

[00:26:47] Prediction #8 - Anywhere Commerce vs Immersive Commerce

[00:26:47] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Let's go to number eight, and this one I'm kind of referring to as anywhere commerce versus immersive commerce. Why? Because we all know that consumers want to transact commerce pretty much anywhere and everywhere [00:27:00] they are.

[00:27:00] And yes, we, everybody says that all the time. We all know you can sort of, kind of do this with, with mobile. The fact is it's still not quite good enough and not always quick enough to meet your in the moment needs, with just a, a phone or, or mobile device. , so what's new in this prediction is that the context of where you are and how that changes how you would conduct that transaction? It's not necessarily the same process that you want as a consumer if you're in your car or on the subway or walking down the street versus sitting on your couch or sitting at a desk. I mean, each of these has different requirements in how you shop and how you buy.

[00:27:37] And we've kind of generalized them to date, right? And maybe two or three different form factors. And, that's what we're saying. So, so to me, this idea of anywhere commerce is completely new kinds of solutions coming out. Some of them were at ces, some of them have been just started come out in, in the last year.

[00:27:52] We'll hopefully be talking to some of those in future episodes this year. But it, it's all about adapting the medium to [00:28:00] work in a matter that still reduces that friction, eliminates complexity and makes it easy to transact commerce for the consumer in that contextual moment. And, and that's not quite the same as just saying mobile solves everything.

[00:28:11] So that's the anywhere commerce side

[00:28:12] Casey Golden: I mean, we've really, I mean, how many years have we tried to get live inventory feeds for physical stores to go with mapping, right? I mean, and I, I keep saying this over and over and over again, like when I am, you know, speaking with, with people over the, the evolution of commerce, our physical software is just not digitally native.

[00:28:35] And so being able to work in real time it's, it's doable. And I think we're, we're finally gonna get to that point where you're gonna know the inventory one block ahead of you.

[00:28:47] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And, and how it's presented to you matters. So you might need to know that inventory, but depending on what you're doing, it doesn't do you any good to be shown an image of it. Right. Or to be shown, how to find it. You just need to be told [00:29:00] that it's there. Yeah. And that's all you need to know in that moment to, to make a decision. So that kind of adaptability, it makes a difference and it has an impact on conversion.

[00:29:08] So that, I think there's that. So now let's talk about the immersive commerce part of this. So that's the anywhere commerce piece. I like immersive commerce as a new term. And, and I'm gonna just kind of say this sort of for me replaces the broad. Metaverse discussion because I, I kind, if I break out the AR and the VR pieces for metaverse applications and, and look at, you know, how do you actually expect consumers to engage in commerce?

[00:29:31] I, I still don't think every metaverse example we have now implies that everybody's gonna sit around with a lot of gear on their head and on their hands. And who wants to do that for hours at a time? 

[00:29:40] Casey Golden: wants, who wants to be responsible for that for society? 

[00:29:44] Ricardo Belmar: there's that too. So, I don't see that yet happening for just general commerce.

[00:29:49] I mean, I can see it for, you know, if, if you're, if companies are hiring new employees and they want to do some new employee training and onboarding in a metaverse version of their [00:30:00] headquarters, I think that's a totally applicable use case. That makes a lot of sense when you've got so many people working remotely.

[00:30:06] But that doesn't mean they're doing it for eight hours a day. It means they might do it for half an hour and then take a break and then come back in another half an hour or, or, or whatever it is. But it's not all day long and I haven't seen enough examples. Yeah, I mean, the whole point to doing this is not just to replicate a store, but to do things that you can't do in a physical space.

[00:30:25] So we, we had Alan Smithson on here before talking about the mall in the Metaverse, and they're doing it a little differently, which I think is the right answer to enable you to do things that you couldn't do in the physical space, not just replicate it. But again, let's take the, the technology pieces out of it and let's look at, for example, AR. You can create as a retailer a really immersive experience with AR that lets someone understand the product.

[00:30:46] Feel like they're engaging it, seeing it, feeling it, touching it without actually having it there. You know, this year's NRF had a lot of hologram demos of showing people what outfits might look like. Look, very three-dimensional. That's pretty immersive. I think the one thing [00:31:00] coming out of a pandemic, everybody wants to go back to this experiential retail, and that's where the immersive commerce comes in.

[00:31:06] But you don't have to do it in the metaverse. So if you're a retailer, you know, where am I gonna invest money? And time and resources to do something that I expect to have a short term impact this year on consumers buy more from me. I think it's chasing those immersive experiences than chasing a brand new thing that the marketing team wants to do in the metaverse.

[00:31:25] Casey Golden: I agree. And I think it's, it's also too we went with like the metaverse and it's something else and you need to go to it, to I don't know, what was it, say like, decentral land had like 31 user, daily active

[00:31:36] Ricardo Belmar: something like that.

[00:31:36] Casey Golden: Where it's just like, okay, maybe the user adoption, it's too far of a bridge.

[00:31:42] So now everything's kind of coming back into a web two scope. To make it feel more immersive, but it's not necessarily using these technologies that are, are metaverse the way we defined it. I don't know. Or end of 2021 [00:32:00] all of last year. Right, right. You know, that too big a bridge. So now it's kind of changing.

[00:32:05] So I think it's more about more about what than where.

[00:32:08] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:32:09] Prediction #9 - web3 vs metaverse

[00:32:09] Casey Golden: but it's, I mean, that can lead us into the, the web three versus Metaverse

[00:32:14] Ricardo Belmar: which is our number nine,

[00:32:15] Casey Golden: which is number nine. Web three is carving out its space in commerce. While the Metaverse is a marketer's new shiny object you know, where we have this underlining technology.

[00:32:27] Can provide a more scalable utility and a more secure utility for a lot of different commerce applications. But it's not necessarily the metaverse. And I think that there's been some confusion over last year, everybody kind of figuring out what's an N F T, what's a digital twin, What is phygital, right?

[00:32:46] Like all of these different opportunities. Where, and then we have the crypto crash So then it's just like, oh, maybe the hype's over. Web three is a definitely, I feel here to stay. Digital twinning has become [00:33:00] much more operational after all of these players experimenting in it last year, and we'll see more mature products and use cases from streaming the operational and production changes for business processes for physical apparel, phygital apparel and really being able to leverage almost another type of infrastructure as we go into more scalable and digital, digital native software solutions. And the metaverse, I see being more of like that new immersive marketing medium where instead of it being a flat Instagram image or a reel or a video this is an opportunity to move from broadcasting to interactive brand experiences becoming the destination.

[00:33:48] But actually being able to have that fantasy that a lot of brands just can't afford to do in real life, you know? 

[00:33:57] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I think at the end of the day, [00:34:00] Meta and our friend Zuckerberg out there really burst the bubble on, on the excitement to this I think. Everybody thinks that they're just failing by throwing good money after bad. And, and that's soured a lot of people on it.

[00:34:10] But I agree. Digital twins is probably the, to me, the top use case that comes out of the metaverse. It's got real utility. There are lots of brands using that, especially on, on the CPG side to do a lot of new product development model their, their factories and production lines so that they don't have to.

[00:34:25] Figure out and spend money in the physical world and to make changes. They'll know before they make the first change, whether it's gonna work or not, and how much it's gonna save by doing the digital twins. So there's real value there. And I think you're, you're right, the web three part of it, you touched on it before on the loyalty program, so that's got real, real world value in that.

[00:34:41] So we'll see more of it. Yeah, so I think that's definitely web three versus the metaverse. I think Web three is gonna be the winner there this year. 

[00:34:48] Prediction #10 - Generative AI

[00:34:48] Ricardo Belmar: So let's move into the last one, number 10, which we would be remiss if we didn't have a predictions episode without talking about all these generative AI solutions that have come up in recent weeks, [00:35:00]whether it's ChatGPT and Dalle-2, all these things.

[00:35:03] And what does that mean . To me this is, these are cool technologies, these are amazing applications of AI that retailers, just like every other business, are gonna figure out where and how are they gonna make use of it. I mean, you could see , something like ChatGPT being used to help write their marketing material.

[00:35:19] For example,

[00:35:20] Casey Golden: like, why did we not just ask the question and. In chat, G P T before the podcast,

[00:35:26] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, we should, I'm afraid of what it would've

[00:35:27] told us. , I'm afraid what it would've told us, wonder if would've, we would've matched up to any other ones. It tells us are the, the top 10 

[00:35:35] Casey Golden: All 

[00:35:35] Ricardo Belmar: like to know. Okay, so, so yeah.

[00:35:37] Homework for all our listeners is go ask ChatGPT for the top 10. And my big question, would it list itself as one of the big predictions and big trends for the year?

[00:35:47] Casey Golden: Right?

[00:35:47] Ricardo Belmar: right. But if you think. There are tools coming out already to integrate these technologies into other applications, other areas?

[00:35:55] I mean, I'm, I'm just thinking of you know, this, this could have an impact in changing how people search for [00:36:00] products. For example, if I'm a retailer and I incorporate this into my app, maybe there's new reasons now as a consumer for me to go into the app and not spend time going to Amazon or Google to search for products.

[00:36:09] I can just do it in their app and I can do it in a conversational way by just talking to the app. I. I don't know. I personally don't think there are a lot of people asking Alexa or Siri to help them shop

[00:36:20] Casey Golden: No, I mean, you know, it it, it comes back to garbage in, garbage out.

[00:36:25] And so in shopping, we've had a lot of garbage in.

[00:36:27] Yeah, right. I just wanna see pencil skirts that have a double, double kick plate.

[00:36:31] I've never seen the word double kick plate on any e-commerce listing in my life. And I have to go store by store. Yeah. But there's opportunity here,

[00:36:41] Ricardo Belmar: right? And, and. Connect the dots on this to our retail media networks and B2B services prediction.

[00:36:48] I mean, you apply these things to all the media that you're putting into the network and how the retailer interfaces that with the brands there. There's impact on both sides of this, right? For the brands and using these technologies to generate the media they're [00:37:00] placing into the network on the retailer and how they're presenting it in store on digital screens.

[00:37:05] There's amazing applications and potential here. I, it's this one. I think at the same time, it's easy to predict. It's also hard to predict because knowing exactly what we're gonna see retailers create with this, I, I don't think anybody can legitimately do that right now in January. But I think, you know, it would be foolish not to have this on any predictions list for the year that it's gonna have a major impact.

[00:37:26] Casey Golden: No, I mean, it's really interesting.

[00:37:27] I've spoken to a lot of people in this, more on the tech side of the space. Everybody knows what it is, but when I've spoken to some brands and designers and and whatnot, they've never heard of it.

[00:37:44] Right.

[00:37:44] It's too soon. 

[00:37:45] there is definitely going, like, there, should

[00:37:50] we move so fast for, for these, these retailers and brands on the tech side that, you know, they can't keep track of all of these things.

[00:37:57] Thankfully there's, you know, a lot of retail consultants and a [00:38:00] lot of technologists that are really diving into here and finding the value . To bring back some type of a solution for Branson retailers with a use 

[00:38:08] Ricardo Belmar: case.

[00:38:08] Yeah. And, and I think this is a lot like what's we've been saying and the other predictions is happening with web three, right? Where we, where we're finally seeing major examples in loyalty. It's where the actual retail tech that's being used in some ways hides all of the complexities and, and things that you have to know to implement on the tech side for this or the retail.

[00:38:27] The brand doesn't need to deal with it, the solution just doesn't. And I think the same thing will happen here once we start to see the tools. Right now everybody's playing around with the raw capability that ChatGPT gives 'em or Dalle two. But when that gets integrated with the right tools and APIs so that you can put it in other things, we'll see new retail tech solutions come up that are going to use this, but they're gonna deliver a business outcome for the retailer of the brand without having to know that this is what's going on in the 

[00:38:54] Casey Golden: Exactly.

[00:38:54] They're probably not even gonna know.

[00:38:56] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And And that's what's gonna help at scale

[00:38:57] Casey Golden: what's coming in. Right. And I've seen a [00:39:00] lot more success on these solutions. when you have the context of the end use case. Right. And I'm, I think we're just gonna see in general a huge push of people from retail that are in tech are going to be making some really big moves in the industry.

[00:39:20] I think the most need for a retail technology consultant in general. It's not about omnichannel, it's not about bricks, it's not about clicks. It's literally about getting a technologist to work with you that understands the retail

[00:39:36] business. 

[00:39:36] Ricardo Belmar: There's, there's a big opportunity there for the consultants in the industry and for all the, the services companies that are gonna help with implementations

[00:39:43] Casey Golden: because it's a lot of, it's a lot of whiplash,

[00:39:46] Ricardo Belmar: It is. Yeah. . That's right, 

[00:39:50] Casey Golden: that's plus running your own business, you

[00:39:52] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:39:53] Casey Golden: has a job already, right? So

[00:39:55] Ricardo Belmar: Kind of implied, not so much because it's not really worth as a prediction, but kind of implied across all of [00:40:00] these that every retailer is actually focusing on the core business while dealing with all these things.

[00:40:04] So yeah, that's sort of a given to that. All right, well, those are the 10, those are our 10 predictions. So for all of our listeners and show fans, hit us up on LinkedIn. Give us your comments and feedback. Let us know what you think. And we'll be checking in throughout the year to see how we're doing on these, like we did last season and see what happens from there.

[00:40:25] Casey Golden: I, I've never been more excited for a year to work in my life. like 2023 Yeah. Is going to be the most fun.

[00:40:34] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right. There's so much potential here. Absolutely. Absolutely. . Well, Casey, I think that is a wrap for this episode.

[00:40:42] Casey Golden: Love it.

[00:40:43] Show Close

[00:40:43] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you [00:41:00] more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden. 

[00:41:14] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:41:31] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:41:32] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail, if you cut through the clutter! Until next time, this is the Retail Razor Show. 

Today as part of our Back to Basics of Retailing theme this season, we are once again focusing on people – the frontline workers in retail stores, and the process of hiring and retaining the best candidates. In this episode we answer two incredibly important questions– How do we change how we hire, connect, and match retail brands to retail workers, respectfully, transparently, and humanly? And can technology help? To answer these questions and more, we meet our latest Retail Transformer & fan favorite - Ron Thurston, author of Retail Pride, the Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career, Host of the Retail in America nationwide tour and podcast, former retail operations leader at Intermix, Saint Laurent, Bonobos, Tory Burch, Apple, and Williams-Sonoma, and now co-founder of Ossy, a business we’ll hear more about in the episode and how it’s disrupting the hiring process!

Plus, we bring you the second topic in our new leadership segment on the show – ‘Blade to Greatness’! In this segment, we invite a retail industry leader to offer one skill or trait that all retail executives need to become great leaders. Whether in stores or at corporate, we'll uncover valuable tips and advice that you can apply to your own retail career path. Jeffrey McNulty, Founder and CEO of New Retail Ethos Consultancy, author of The Ultimate Retail Manual, and creator of The Ultimate Retail Course: Become a Retail RockStar returns to the show for this powerful new segment to discuss an incredibly important skill retail leaders need – supporting employee autonomy!

Jeffrey is offering a special discount on his retail course for Retail Razor Show listeners with discount code RETAILROCKSTAR100OFF at this website: http://www.theultimateretailcourse.com/

We’ve moved up to No. 16 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts and help us continue our climb up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Wow! Join us in celebrating our recent top of the charts achievements on the Goodpods podcast player!

#1 in the Top Indie Management Podcasts chart

#2 in the Top Management Podcasts chart

#4 in the Top Marketing Podcasts charts

Thank you Goodpods listeners! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and provide your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag & Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

We return to our anywhere commerce theme for this season and shine a light on the future of in-car commerce! We’re answering a very important question - Will shopping on the go become the most important commerce channel for product discovery? We'll dig into what's new and what’s next for in-car product recommendation, BOPIS, and its impact on local search by meeting our latest Retail Transformer – Cynthia Hollen, CEO & co-founder of mavi.io! If you thought your mobile phone was all the mobile commerce you needed, you’ll think again after listening to this episode. Join us as we uncover the connection between car manufacturers, consumers, retailers, and brands that will deliver a new way of shopping from the convenience of your car. Did we mention how this will automate your routine shopping habits? And did you know that retail media networks have an important role to play in your car? All this and more in a fully loaded podcast episode!

Plus, we have the third topic in our new leadership segment– ‘Blade to Greatness’! In this segment, we invite a retail industry leader to offer one skill or trait that all retail executives need to become great leaders. Whether in stores or at corporate, we'll uncover valuable tips and advice that you can apply to your own retail career path. April Sabral, founder of retailu.ca, an online leadership development portal for field leaders and author of two books, The Positive Effect, and her latest, Incurable Positivity, joins us to share her valuable insights into an incredibly important skill every retail leader needs to master: why having a positive mindset is an advantage in growing your business!

We’re currently at No. 18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts and help us continue our climb up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Join us in celebrating our latest top of the charts achievements on the Goodpods podcast player!

#2 in the Top Indie Management Podcasts chart

#9 in the Top Management Podcasts chart

#7 in the Top Indie Marketing Podcasts charts

Thank you Goodpods listeners! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag & Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Did you miss Shoptalk 2023 this year? Or were you there and feel like you didn’t catch enough of the content and top trends? We’ve got you covered with another podcast cross-over event with This Week in Innovation and special guest host Jeff Roster! Kicking off this multi-part series, Jeff and regular host Ricardo Belmar sit down with Shoptalk’s content team of Krystina Gustafson and Ben Miller live and in-person on the final day of the event. Together they review the top 4 trends and what they mean for retailers, brands, and the retail tech community. The team goes deep to break down the hype vs reality of Generative AI and discuss how retailers are changing and evolving their relationships with consumers, employees, and suppliers. Plus, hear about the latest trends in shopper engagement!

This episode’s guests:

Krystina Gustafson, SVP Content, Shoptalk and Groceryshop

Ben Miller, Director of original content, Shoptalk and Groceryshop

We’re at number 19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list - please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! Leave us a review & be mentioned in future episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your regular hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E12a #ShoptalkLive – SPECIAL - Krystina Gustafson & Ben Miller

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:00] Show Intro 

[00:00:20] Casey Golden: Hello Retail Razor Show listeners and viewers, and welcome to retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologist, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. I'm your host, Casey Golden.

[00:00:33] Ricardo Belmar: And I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar. And boy do we have a special treat for you this episode! Today we are talking about the changing relationships between retailers and brands, the evolution of shopper engagement. How omnichannel is morphing into seamless stores, and we see how it's possible to transform over 320,000 meeting requests into over 50,000 actual meetings in a span of three days.

[00:00:57] But first, let's talk about our newest [00:01:00] crossover event, and this episode's special guests.

[00:01:03] Casey Golden: That's right after our wildly successful crossover event with This Week In Innovation podcast for our N R F Live miniseries. Joined by one of our favorite guest hosts, Jeff Roster. We've done it again for our Shop Talk coverage.

[00:01:20] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, indeed. By popular demand, and by popular demand, I mean, we really liked the idea, so we thought, let's do it again. Jeff Roster and I teamed up at Shop Talk for a few special interviews to bring you a Shop Talk live mini-series.

[00:01:33] Casey Golden: Well, I'm sad I once again had to miss this one, but I know you guys have pulled together a killer miniseries not to be missed. Who are the episodes special guests?

[00:01:45] Ricardo Belmar: I am glad you asked Casey. What better way to kick off this mini-series and with a deep dive discussion on all the hot topics at Shop Talk than sitting down with the Source, Shop talk's, amazing content team led by Krystina Gustafson, SVP of Content, [00:02:00] and Ben Miller, director of original content.

[00:02:02] Casey Golden: Christina and Ben are incredible. Uh, you and Jeff really got to dig in to all the hot topics and wasn't this right after they had delivered their retail zeitgeist presentation on , the main stage, right?

[00:02:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. We, we recorded this the very next morning after that session where Krystina and Joe Laszlo had run through what Shop Talk was seeing as the major retail trends for the year. Plus , Ben and Krystina gave us some insights into what they found most notable from all the sessions at the show.

[00:02:33] And did I mention those 50,000 meetings they orchestrated? I mean, just, wow. Wait until you hear all the stats about what was surely the, the biggest shop talk ever.

[00:02:42] Casey Golden: Well, let's get to it then and jump right into you and Jeff's conversation with Krystina Gustafson and Ben Miller from Shop Talk, recorded live and in person at the show. 

[00:02:54] ​

[00:02:59] The Shoptalk Review 

[00:02:59] Ricardo Belmar: Hello everyone [00:03:00] and welcome to our special Retail Razor crossover event with This Week In Innovation. I'm Ricardo Belmar, live and in person here at Shop Talk 2023, and I am here with the myth, the legend, Mr. Jeff Roster from This Week In Innovation. How you doing, Jeff?

[00:03:15] Jeff Roster: Really good. Ricardo. I, you know, I, I'm so proud of both of us. We're, we're here last day, literally working the show to the last minute, and that's how we roll. That's how we

[00:03:24] Ricardo Belmar: what we do. That's right. And for this special edition episode of our live series here at Shop Talk, we have the incredible pleasure of having two folks from the Shop talk team to talk to us about the event.

[00:03:36] We're here with Krystina Gustafson and Ben Miller. Krystina. Ben, how are you doing today?

[00:03:40] Krystina Gustafson: Doing awesome.

[00:03:41] Ben Miller: Yeah, very good. Thank you. Thanks for having us. 

[00:03:43] Ricardo Belmar: Fantastic. Fantastic. So let's jump in. And I think, you know, one of the, the probably most in, well maybe not most interesting, but something I'm sure everyone wants to know is just give us a little bit of data around just how big a shop talk was this, this year?

[00:03:56] Krystina Gustafson: Yeah, happy to start. 10,000 plus attendees, our [00:04:00] largest crowd so far. I would say though, what I take away even more than the size is just the quality of the a attendee. So it really sort of felt like this was. The big year. I know last year was technically retail's big reunion, but with the loss of corporate travel bands people just really being back down to business, the caliber of attendee, the amount of retailers and brands we had attending the show at a very senior level was, was one of the big takeaways to me beyond just kind of the scale of the event.

[00:04:25] I know we'll probably talk about meet up a little bit later, but we also were able to facilitate 50,000 meetings over the course of two days which was incredibly impressive. Other things to note about scale 275 speakers 70 hours. 50 hours of content, 80 sessions seven content theaters. So I would say those are kind of the high level numbers. But Ben, you might have some, some additional stats to toss out there.

[00:04:48] Ben Miller: kind of, yeah, I think when we talk about the Meetup 50,000 sounds an incredible number

[00:04:53] Ricardo Belmar: right?

[00:04:53] Yeah, it does.

[00:04:54] Ben Miller: We had 323,000 requests to[00:05:00] so the appetite the appetite for, everybody to want to get together, to have some meetings, to meet people, to build their business. And you could feel that energy when you walked around.

[00:05:10] And that energy, you know, it's, day four with lagging a little bit, but that energy that that energy is palpable. And that's, and that's been, yeah, that's been a key part of the show this year. 

[00:05:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's un 323,000 requests . Wow. What I, I, you know, one of the things we were talking about before, you know, what we think is sort of unique about the Shop Talk experience you have you know, for example, like how, how, how many vendors were here, whether exhibiting or, or attendees.

[00:05:39] I think that's always a key part of bringing all parts of the industry together. That Shop Talk is so, so special for 

[00:05:45] Ben Miller: key. No, we, we re really agree our. I think you've heard Sophie, our president talk before that we don't really think about a buy side and a sell side. We don't try and compartmentalize. We have a community and our vendors, the technology companies, whether they are [00:06:00] really small startups for whom a Series A feels a distant proposition still right through to Google Face meta.

[00:06:07] You know, some of the biggest organizations and biggest corporations in the country and in the world are here. We have about 700. Technology companies and technology vendors, and many of them are on our show floor exhibiting showing their wear, hosting their their, their clients, and also being involved in the meetings and they're a really important part of our community.

[00:06:26] Ricardo Belmar: And then tell us a little bit about you know, the, the startup community and the relationship with, with the shop talk there.

[00:06:32] Krystina Gustafson: Yeah, it's I think, been a part of our community that's been really special from day one. You know, we were really the first show that was putting Katrina Lake on, on the main stage when she had founded Stitch Fix. You know, the guys at Dollar Shave Club. So I'd say it's always been a core part of who we are.

[00:06:45] But we have recognized that it's Such a differentiator for us that we wanna pour more investment into it. And so we've actually been building out our team internally to make sure that we're really cultivating that community, bringing people on board who are specific to, you know, bringing the big VCs to, to the show because, hey, when you [00:07:00] get the big VCs here, you're also gonna be be building a, a big start of community.

[00:07:03] And I had jotted down the number, which of course is escaping me now, but yes, 475 founders who were at Shop Talk this year. I like to think that number's actually probably a little lower. When you think about the fact that some founders have potentially sold their businesses, gone onto corporate ventures, it's probably over 500 in, in some capacity.

[00:07:19] People who are current founders or have founded businesses before. But we just truly think that's what gives the show so much life. Just the energy that you have from those entrepreneurs who are coming here to learn share what they're finding. They tend to be also some of the more open folks , when they're talking about the challenges that they're facing, which is

[00:07:34] Jeff Roster: Yeah. Not tend to be a hundred percent. What? That's, that's why it's so fun to, to, to talk to the startup community cuz they there is no filter.

[00:07:41] And there was no AR person to, to say, don't say that. So, no, it's, I mean, the difference is an analyst working, you know, with, with the largest companies in my old days of Gartner to work covering the startup committee.

[00:07:52] I mean, it's night and day. It's so refreshing.

[00:07:55] Krystina Gustafson: were you I don't know if you were in the keynote with Imran Khan from Veri Shop, but he, he was unfiltered while he [00:08:00] was up there on stage, which, I mean, we've been getting such good feedback on that interview, so yeah, I hear you. 

[00:08:04] Ben Miller: getting, I think we are incredibly proud about the keynote lineup this. year. And we, we, we've, it's an incredible process to work with all of our keynotes to, to be prepared. But one of the things that we have spoken about is how they can be open. Cuz nobody wants to come to an event and just see someone reading the press release.

[00:08:19] And some of, the, some the great conversations that we've had on the main stage this year and some of the openness of the speakers has been quite a revelation and yeah, I think it's probably the best keynote group that we put together.

[00:08:30] Krystina Gustafson: I agree. And I have to say, just being in the, I spent a lot of my time in the, the depths of the green room at the show, and I have to tell you the authenticity of those leaders. And I know that sounds really cheesy, and I'm not typically the type of prince Ben knows. I'm not the soft emotive type.

[00:08:44] But I mean, it was palpable. Every single one of them was incredibly kind, incredibly grateful to be here. Willing to be open, recognizing that our audience really wanted to learn. And so I didn't even feel to the same degree as impacious that we had to push. Obviously we're always pushing people to say interesting things, but they [00:09:00] were eager to do it which was really unique and special.

[00:09:02] Ricardo Belmar: tell us a bit more about some of the feedback you've had, both, both in the keynotes and then even in some of the other track sessions that I know there have been some really interesting speakers there. I know I was in some where you could just feel, you know, and some of the speakers are, or just, I, I would almost have to describe as entertaining and some of the things they said in, in the way that, that the crowd really reacted to them.

[00:09:20] Krystina Gustafson: Yeah.

[00:09:20] I think some of the interesting formats that we rolled out have been a lot of fun. So one session that got a ton of great feedback was our rapid fire session. We did two of them. One was with investors, which again, kind of getting back to your point about people that can be unfiltered, a lot of laughter coming outta that one.

[00:09:34] I think one of the, one of the questions at the end was you know, what's your most unpopular opinion today? And just really kinda, you know, use poking and prodding

[00:09:42] them. So that one was a lot of fun. 

[00:09:44] Jeff Roster: I'm stealing that one. I'm gonna, that, that's gonna be my,

[00:09:46] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, that's right. Right. Yeah.

[00:09:47] Krystina Gustafson: Exactly.

[00:09:48] We gamify it. There's a really loud, obnoxious buzzer when people run out of time.

[00:09:51] They have their four minutes. So, so that was a hit. And then we also did one on tech investing, which was really fun. It had CB Insights, Ulta Beauty and Patagonia on [00:10:00] it. And I think what was really interesting about that one was you had sort of Ulta that has this huge budget. They're always trying new things.

[00:10:05] They're always testing, and, learning. And then you have Patagonia, which is a little bit more conservative, maybe doesn't have that big budget to blow. So just kind of hearing Prama, who's the Chief digital officer at Ulta talking about, oh yes, we're trying this. Yes, we're doing AR. Oh, this is fantastic. And Patagonia just being kinda like, no hard pass on Metaverse hard pass on this.

[00:10:19] You know, it really represents the dynamics that our audience has, you know? 

[00:10:23] Ricardo Belmar: different. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:24] Ben Miller: And, and I think that authenticity has been something that's, that's thread throughout and we, we've programmed sessions that were, were about purpose and we wanted to talk about purpose and want to talk about sustainability.

[00:10:34] But actually what we've found is great. We've got the specific sessions, but the general principle of authentic leadership has, has woven through so many of the conversations. Whether that's, you know, leaders openly facing in some of the challenges that they've had or talk about their views on social issues.

[00:10:48] There's been some really dynamic conversations and that's been exciting to be part of. 

[00:10:54] Krystina Gustafson: I think to your question too about feedback though I haven't had anyone complain to me yet.

[00:10:57] so that to me is, 

[00:10:59] Ricardo Belmar: That's something, 

[00:10:59] Krystina Gustafson: [00:11:00] that's a big barometer of, of people being happy. So I think just generally kind of going back to where we started the conversation, everyone's gritting, ear to ear having a fantastic time, and that's not really something that's measurable.

[00:11:10] We'll get sort of the more measurable data after the show, but. , but it's, I mean, so far I think the buzz has been really great. I do really look forward to getting that feedback though. One of the things that I had mentioned for anyone who was in the opening remarks session, when we talked about how we were doing more on seamless stores this year, that was feedback that we got from both Shop Talk and the most recent grocery shop was that people wanted to see us lean more into physical stores.

[00:11:30] And so, We did that we made sure that it was covered on our keynote stage with Footlocker, with Brilliant Earth. It was something that we dialed up in our track sessions as well. So it's great to hear kind of the initial buzz and excitement. But we also try to take that constructive feedback post show when we're getting more concrete data, survey results, and then action that for, the next show 

[00:11:48] Seamless Stores & the "Death of Omnichannel"

[00:11:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. So tell, tell us a little bit more on that topic of Seamless stores, because I, I did, I, cause I noticed that difference as well, right? From back, from both, from last Shop Talk and, and progressing through grocery shop to hear that there was [00:12:00] more emphasis on what's happening in physical stores and how that ties back into the rest of of the retail organization.

[00:12:06] So how, tell us more about that.

[00:12:07] Ben Miller: I woke up this morning to a notification on my phone flicking through half jet lag still, and there's this great message that somebody had posted on my LinkedIn saying, thank you, shop Talk 2023 for finally killing omnichannel.

[00:12:24] And

[00:12:24] I think, 

[00:12:25] Ricardo Belmar: saw that post

[00:12:26] Ben Miller: do you know what, we've now reached that point where we talk about seamless stores, we talk about unified commerce, the general principle of how do we help customers wherever they are, whenever they want to interact with the brand, to be able to, discover, to be able to explore,

[00:12:44] to be able to excited it or to be able to buy and whether that's on a social media channel, whether that's on the retailer's own asset, whether that's having a fantastic experience when they walk through a store.

[00:12:55] That's shopping. And I think the number of times I've heard that, you know, [00:13:00]there's been very few conversations about channel management, cuz I think we've finally realized that channels are just this artificial construct and actually

[00:13:05] what it is he's getting, he's getting product to people and exciting. about product. And that's been one of the big things for me for, for the whole show. When we, we, we spent a lot of time talking about it in advance. We've been looking at how do you remove friction from the shopping experience, and places where a bit of friction's good, but also where you want to take out friction.

[00:13:23] And that's been a really important thought. How do you link some of these things together about the online experience and the offline experience What are the building blocks? What, what's the tech stack to enable that? But as a, as a concept, just getting product to people when they want, it has been, I think it's been the biggest thing for me, 

[00:13:40] Krystina Gustafson: One of the, one of the cheesy jokes I didn't get into the zeitgeist was it reminds me of the Nintendo Switch, you know, where you're playing on your handheld and then you plug it into the TV and your game is picked up. You know exactly where you were in, in the game progress, you don't have to finish a level.

[00:13:53] That's how I, that's how my brain thinks about what unified retail should be going forward. I didn't have room for it though. We were already five minutes over. But, but in all [00:14:00]seriousness you know, the example that I did share, which was probably more valuable to the audience, was Brilliant Earth, right?

[00:14:04] You know, go online. You do an online consultation, you get to the store, Hey, here's five rings that we picked out for you based off of what you told us online. Like I think that's kind of how we're thinking about unified these days. It's less about shopping where you want, when you want, and making that a continuous experience.

[00:14:18] Because we were talking, we didn't wanna undermine in in our zeitgeist presentation that frictionless isn't hard and it isn't important. But I think where we landed is more companies have solved for that already, right? The amount of companies that have curbside, that have redesigned their store formats.

[00:14:31] I think that's kind of more progressed, if you will. And I think Unified is really still in its early stages seeing what companies like Brilliant Earth are doing. The other speaker who we confirmed was the chief digital Officer from Panera. And they recently signed that deal with Amazon One for the biometric scanning in their stores linking to loyalty programs.

[00:14:47] So that's another great example. And it's a completely different category than fine jewelry, which is what Brilliant Earth is doing. But I feel like those are two early examples of where we see this trend heading. 

[00:14:57]

[00:14:57] "Follow the Money" ... but, Omnichannel?

[00:14:57] Ben Miller: And I was in a different room when the Panera presentation was [00:15:00]on, so I missed it. But the social comments and the social feedback on that yeah, we did some work. One of the things that, it goes right back to when Shop Talk was founded by, led by Anil and, and the team was to sit down and look at where does the VC And if you follow the money, then you start to pick up the trends. And we spend a, we spend quite a bit of time looking at this whole idea of, okay, if Shop Talk wants to talk about physical stores, well what's relevant, what's new? What's the future in that? So, you with our friends, at CB Insights, we went into the data and there's a phenomenal amount of funding's continuing to go into removing friction.

[00:15:38] Whether that's checkout free, for example, they say whole seamless of connecting that shopping journey. It's, there's funding there, but it's, it's still lower, but we really see that increasing and there some, some of the stats about the levels of is huge. So we believe that's only gonna get more and that's only gonna snowball.

[00:15:55] So understanding that further, pulling out great examples. We talked on the main stage [00:16:00] about Zara and some of the work that they're doing in their flagship stores. Yeah. Zara is is certainly the biggest apparel retailer in Europe, if not, yeah, the parent company, Inditex, the biggest in the world

[00:16:11] They're still only doing it in, in a couple of trial stores. So the potential is, is absolutely huge and, and we wanna celebrate trials like that.

[00:16:19] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah, no, that, that, that makes sense.

[00:16:20] Jeff Roster: Yeah, that's music in my ears. I mean, I've been fighting omnichannel forever. 

[00:16:25] No, no offense, but when, when your competitor coins the term, no, Gardner, Allen should ever use that term. What's funny, the funniest thing I ever had is somebody, one time, you know, no offense to the, the vendors in the room, but a vendor one time ask me, Hey, do you have omnichannel IT spend?

[00:16:39] And I said, well, I do, but you'll have to define what you mean. And the conversation went dead. He had no idea what he he was 

[00:16:44] Krystina Gustafson: I absolutely love that. My favorite, thing is when people apply to speak at Shop Talk and we're like, what do you wanna speak about? And they're like, oh, omnichannel, or, oh, I wanna talk about e-com. And I'm just like, gimme more, gimme more 

[00:16:53] Supporting Store Teams

[00:16:53] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Right. Could you be a little more vague?

[00:16:56] Yeah. Yeah. So, so one thing I [00:17:00] noticed in particular this time, which I haven't seen at other shows as much attention. And I think maybe it's part, it sort of comes out I think, a little bit out of the seamless stores. But I think Krystina, you or Joe mentioned it in this, session that there's this renewed, focus on how we're enabling store teams, whether it's directly with technology or just with different, by changing the processes, but just how they're able to work and how even if you didn't have a session that was stated on the agenda, that's what it was about. I heard that come up from so many presenters and speakers that part of what they were doing was tying back into how they're supporting those store teams to make their job better. And I, I think I lost track, but maybe three or four times, I heard one of the speakers mention how they see that as something that is enabling a better career path for these retail workers. And I thought that was super interesting to me because I haven't seen that at other shows or in other events.

[00:17:53] Ben Miller: I mean, let me give a big picture of you and I'll pass over to Krystina for a bit more detail.

[00:17:58] I would say take one step back from [00:18:00] that. And, and the first step back from that is, is the investment environment that we find ourselves in right now.

[00:18:05] And the decisions and the hard decisions that people have to make.

[00:18:10] So if we are going through continued elevated levels of e-commerce sales, we're going through a store Renaissance, something as we referred to it, and we need to try and deliver to customers, you know, commerce everywhere where, that's great, but all of those parts require investment.

[00:18:25] So how do you do it in an investment environment which is, which is tighter and it, this has felt a really optimistic few days, but we are really cognizant of the environment that we're in. The number of speakers that I've heard to say in an environment. The two things that they focus on right now are people and talent, and also the store infrastructure.

[00:18:44] If you take that together and you think, okay, well where's the investment in people? In stores?

[00:18:49] Then you start to realize that actually you've got a really cost effective way to be able to drive, drive digital transformation and to drive significant improvement. So we, we deliberately programmed some areas where we wanted to talk about some of the [00:19:00] detail about that, but actually is a theme.

[00:19:02] Completely agree. Ricardo. It's cropped up in so many different 

[00:19:05] Krystina Gustafson: Yeah. I would build on that. I think it's not only the store associates, right? I think people overall ended up being a much bigger theme than we had intended it to be. You know, to Ben's point, we did have a couple of sessions that were very specific to store employees, whether it was from the retailer brand side, whether it was from the tech side.

[00:19:21] We had a couple sessions, maybe one or two on culture and leadership. But that theme came up I feel, even more than usual. And I think it's this whole idea of empathy. Kind of going back to your point too, and, and how you leverage your workers. Leverage is probably a, a crass word, but. 

[00:19:35] Empower your

[00:19:36] Jeff Roster: There you 

[00:19:37] Krystina Gustafson: use Empower. What Use Empower. It was really interesting because I, I feel like the dialogue around store associates for so long has been about productivity. And of course we were hearing quite a bit of that. The lens of safety seemed to be a new conversation, right? As much as we hear about automation and the, is that, oh, the robots aren't gonna take your jobs now, it was sort of, you know, listening into Amazon, okay, well we're actually using automation to make the warehouse [00:20:00] workers safer and to make sure that we have, you know, safety protocols in place. And that was kind of a new spin on that theme that I hadn't previously heard and, and wasn't necessarily expecting coming into the show.

[00:20:08] Ben Miller: I'm trying to find a stat and I'm 

[00:20:12] we go. I got it. There's a great, there's a great session from Katie Reeves from, who's the managing director of Cos

[00:20:20] of the h and m group manager of Cos in North America, and she's talked about the investment that they are making their smart store

[00:20:27] portfolio. 

[00:20:28] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. I, I remember that session. 

[00:20:29] Yeah. But

[00:20:30] Ben Miller: one of the key components of the smart store was enabling their teams in the store and they talked about the app that they. And, and they'd use the app for process improvement, bring all the information into the right place to help them operationally as well as help serve customers better.

[00:20:46] And she shared that in the pilot stores where they have got the app running, their staff retention of install teams has increased by And if you think about the labor market we are in,

[00:20:58] Ricardo Belmar: wow. [00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Ben Miller: Joe shared on the main stage, the the quit rate is over 40% higher for retail than it is for as a whole.

[00:21:07] Yeah. It's harder to find people, people more expensive. If you're able to make that sort of change, enable that by technology. That's incredible.

[00:21:13] Not only that, she shared that because the process improvements their store staff are having an extra two and a half hours a week to be able to serve their customers better.

[00:21:25] And that's, that's transformational for a

[00:21:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's a massive difference. That's a massive improvement.

[00:21:30] Yeah.

[00:21:30] Krystina Gustafson: You know, one thing that comes to mind as you're saying that, and it sort of circles back to what we were talking about before I was in the session with Chobani, and they were actually taking this from more of a perspective. And you know, she was saying, we get asked the question all the time, how do you measure. The impact on sales. How do you measure the impact on the business? And she was actually making the point actually, we see the most measurable statistics in our employee acquisition and retention because there are so many people that want to be a part of a company that is mission driven. So I think it's always such a [00:22:00] good point.

[00:22:00] Technology is really enabling workers. It's, you know, boosting retention. It's helping that labor shortage, but also a really strong purpose and something that has nothing to do with technology could also be really powerful.

[00:22:10] Ricardo Belmar: strong purpose. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:12] Jeff Roster: I mean, how novel people wanna be part of something big. I'm shocking

[00:22:15] Ricardo Belmar: Shocking, right.

[00:22:16] Krystina Gustafson: We lose sight of it though, don't we?

[00:22:18] Jeff Roster: Well, we do. And you know, and that was such a strong point. And, and, and I was sitting here thinking as you're talking you know, of course our, our good friend Ron Thurston is this, is this like his legacy because. Five years ago, four years ago, we weren't really talking about this stuff.

[00:22:32] And then Ron pops on and does that amazing podcast and that amazing journey and now all of a sudden it's, it's like we all are, are able to say what, what's common sense? It's, it's a people business. You better put your people in front of your people business.

[00:22:46] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I, I even think, you know, the, the biggest change I've noticed to your point, if you go back five years, no one used the phrases enabling store teams. No one talked about empowering them with the right technology. What everyone said is, well, we have to get them the right training. [00:23:00] It was all about, training was always the key word, and it was investment in training as if, you know, the only thing you needed to do was to impart a set of skills to just work the store.

[00:23:09] And now that's completely transformed that it is. I, I think, you know, you have the right words, Krystina, right, it's about enabling, empowering those teams with the right elements, whether it's process, technology or the. People skills itself, whatever it is. And I can't remember which session it was, but the one that's also stood out to me, someone was talking about how they recognize that when they look across all of the store associates, they have, people have different skills and the different talents, and some are better than others at certain roles in the store. And that it doesn't make sense to assume that every store employee should be able to do every single job in the store. And especially if you start layering in things now, like live streaming, for example.

[00:23:47] And this was one that I keyed in on because and you may remember this, this trip because some time ago on, on the podcast we talked. This idea. And I had, and, and some other conversation I had with with Retail Wire. I think we talked about this idea that, the retailers [00:24:00] have this inherent talent in some of their employees.

[00:24:02] Because let's face it, if you go by the, just by age demographics alone, odds are in most retailers, you have employees in stores who may have their own YouTube channel already. Independent of that job function. And they're good at this and they like doing it. So it makes sense for a retailer to kind of take advantage of that in, in a sense, right?

[00:24:19] And encourage those skills. But at the same time, that that same person who might like to live stream, they might not be a good stylist. For example, if it's an apparel store and there might be another employee that loves to do styling with customers and is so much better at it than others. So give them that kind of growth path using those skills.

[00:24:37] Ben Miller: using, and this speaks to something at the sort, the very heart of shop content, which is how is technology enabling a lot of this transformation? And if you talk about, you know, enabling and empowering frontline workers, you've got a hundred percent, there is this sort of talent.

[00:24:51] How do you unlock this talent? And things like livestream shoppable video, creating new way for frontline workers to be able to unlock that talent that [00:25:00] they've had in that store. And they've probably been helping a small number of customers with, but now you can do it on a bigger scale. The second in training,

[00:25:07] it's really hard, to take a whole day out or to take a frontline worker away from their store to help them with some of the at times softer to be able to do that.

[00:25:18] We've got some amazing trials and Kroger on the front foot about doing some incredible work to help empower with app enable. Short, quick, accessible training to help be able to improve and to deliver a better experience for their guests. And then finally, there's that element you talked about, about playing to STRs. There is this group of workers in the in flexible environments economy and tech is enabling retailers to access that pool. But actually more broadly, is enable. Existing workers to have that flexibility to choose which all they want to work in, or tasks that they wanna pick up, working at times their families.

[00:25:59] So tech is [00:26:00] enabling all these things to take that workforce, drive the attention, drive the engagement, and ultimately serve their customers better.

[00:26:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:26:07] Krystina Gustafson: I'm laughing because , it's a little bit of a tangent, but as you're talking about this and, and we're just kind of on this theme about empowering your workers and thinking about building technology for the people who are running the organization. I think about maybe another industry, maybe the airline industry

[00:26:23] Ricardo Belmar: mm-hmm.

[00:26:23] Krystina Gustafson: didn't focus on this and Yeah.

[00:26:24] Somewhat imploded. And so i, I, I laugh because, We always tell people, if you tell me you're a data-driven, consumer-centric company, get off the stage.

[00:26:33] Cuz everyone else, like every single company who's on our stages. If you're, if you're not, get outta here.

[00:26:37] But I do think sometimes by saying that, and it's obviously the right approach we ignore what needs to happen for the employees to make this whole business run.

[00:26:46] And we've very clearly what can happen when that gets ignored. So I think, even just kind of looking to lessons from other industries. Made us realize just kind of how important is overall as well.

[00:26:57] All about the Data & Data Insights

[00:26:57] Ben Miller: Ricardo, there's a question that I, I wanted to ask you. [00:27:00] What one of the conversations, cause we're starting to touch about data Mm-hmm. and you, you've got such incredible knowledge in this space. We, we've picked conversation almost.

[00:27:09] The number of speakers that almost thrown their hands in the and said, you know what?

[00:27:13] Data, trying to understand the customer across all touchpoints. You just can't do First party, hear a party.

[00:27:19] I, I can't get an omnichannel, a true of my customer everywhere, and that's fine. I'm just gonna have to serve them where you can.

[00:27:27] Ricardo Belmar: Uhhuh

[00:27:28] Ben Miller: Is that a view you recognize?

[00:27:30] Ricardo Belmar: I, I I think kind of maybe the, the, I would kind of break that down to say that I, every retailer I talk to Will, will say, you know, at the end of the day, we are overwhelmed with data.

[00:27:39] There's no lack of data . It's, it's really a matter of a, what can I do with that? How can I actually analyze it in a way that tells me the story about my customer and who they are, what, what their preferences are, what, how they want to engage with us. That's what every retailer wants to know. And I think the challenge really is I forget what the statistic is, but the [00:28:00] amount of data that retail generates every day is just overwhelming. I think it's something on the order of it's more data than the internet generated five years ago or something. Un unbelievable like that. And so the question every retailer has to ask is, so what am I gonna do with this now?

[00:28:14] Right? What are the tools I have to use? And even if you have the tools, it's not enough, right? Because it, even that needs to be looked at by people to interpret what do I do now that I have this knowledge? If I convert that data into something useful and knowledgeable, that gives me a, a possible actions to take.

[00:28:29] Someone has to take those actions, someone has to make the decision, which is the best action, and then it becomes back to a, a people problem. And I know. . I think even today, but in past years, I've, I've seen retailers will say, you know, now we think we know how to select the right tools to help us with the analysis, but now my challenge is this is so new, we don't have anyone on staff that knows how to deal with this.

[00:28:49] And if I try to go out and hire those people, everyone wants to hire those people. So it's incredibly competitive and I feel like I don't even know if we can afford those people on to be part of our, [00:29:00] our organization because it's so competitive.

[00:29:02] Ben Miller: We're back to people in

[00:29:03] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly right. Exactly. It always seems to come back to that.

[00:29:06] You know, I guess what I'll maybe turn around because sort of the one thing we haven't talked about that has come up all over the, the place is, everyone's favorite new, hyped up technology , is generative ai, ? It's like last year's metaverse. And, and one of the promises, I guess I'll use that strong word about this, is that it is supposed to help with this problem and give you better tools and better decision making capability with all that data that you have.

[00:29:29] What About Generative AI?

[00:29:29] Ricardo Belmar: I, I'm, I'm wondering, I mean, what, what are your, for both of you, what are your thoughts? Cuz obviously everyone must be coming up to you and saying, oh, what, where, where is the session that we're gonna talk about generative ai 

[00:29:38] Krystina Gustafson: Every, yeah.

[00:29:39] You know was actually surprised people were more measured than I expected them to be. I thought it was gonna be like Metaverse last year where it was like, the session is not about metaverse and it's still snuck in. I, I feel like generative AI was a little bit more measured.

[00:29:50] Look, I think our big thesis on it is, again, still very early. What feels different to us though is that this feels immediately applicable and it feels like something [00:30:00] that you invest in and see real business results on. Right? So, so many opportunities I think.

[00:30:06] Gosh, he wasn't. Sean Downey from Google was just kind of talking about the various use cases for it, whether it's advertising, whether it's, you know, looking at supply chain data, whether it's creatives, whether it's customer service.

[00:30:14] We had a slide that was kind of making fun of in a, in a good way. The CB insights market map that they built with just all the, and it was just scrolling, right?

[00:30:21] I mean, it's not even retail. Right. It's every single industry, the use cases. Endless, which I think is a really exciting opportunity.

[00:30:28] I think we would both agree that a lot of work still needs to be done to make sure this is ethical, to make sure it's accurate. We're very early stages, but I think it just feels more real than the metaverse

[00:30:38] Jeff Roster: well, the, the thing that's real about it is we all, we all are, are playing on it in our own search engine. I

[00:30:44] Ricardo Belmar: right. Yeah.

[00:30:45] Jeff Roster: I wanted to ask you know, the Microsoft guys we talked to yesterday, just what. How many more hits on Bing has gotten in the last

[00:30:52] Ben Miller: own

[00:30:52] Jeff Roster: I mean,

[00:30:52] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it

[00:30:53] Jeff Roster: that's all I've used. Yeah.

[00:30:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it

[00:30:55] Jeff Roster: And, and so we're so it's

[00:30:56] Ricardo Belmar: extra users

[00:30:57] Jeff Roster: Exactly. Exactly. It just, it has to be [00:31:00] so, so literally. There's no technology that, that every single person is using that it has this immediate impact in the business. I mean, we all didn't pick up point of sale devices or all, didn't pick up whatever, but this one thing hit, but we, I mean, we were tracking it from an, from a startup perspective.

[00:31:17] I mean, the amount of, of spending AI even 2, 3, 4 years ago, it's, it's, it's orders of magnitude compared to everything else. Yeah. And then it just exploded.

[00:31:25] And then it got a little controversial, so then people even used it more and everyone's trying to trick it and all this stuff,

[00:31:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. It kinda 

[00:31:30] Krystina Gustafson: but I think you, you hit on something really important there, right? One of the biggest problems with the metaverse conversation, and we were very clear about this last year as well, the learning curve.

[00:31:39] To even understand what it is to understand what blockchain is.

[00:31:42] is virtual gaming actually, the metaverse, what ,is it goggles?

[00:31:46] ChatGPT, my parents can go, go. on the website, tape it. It is So easily accessible and it's so Easily understandable. And I think that's why you've seen just meteor meteoric rise in interest compared to the metaverse.

[00:31:57] Ben Miller: And the other thing is if you break it down, [00:32:00] There is three potential areas that generative AI can help with, which are fundamental retail challenges.

[00:32:08] Number one, can I make repetitive tasks more efficient

[00:32:11] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:11] Ben Miller: Mm-hmm. , and scale retail is the efficiency of process.

[00:32:16] that's what it is. it's, about 

[00:32:17] Ricardo Belmar: scale, right? It's about 

[00:32:18] Ben Miller: Great. This is something that can help it. So of course retail's gonna lean in. The second is can it help drive commerce everywhere? You know, we started a conversation with seamless stores, The amount of copy and creative that it be required to be wherever your customers want to be is mind boggling. Generative AI might be able to help. And thirdly, that the holy grail of mass retail, physical, of personalization, we've talked about it every time. And the reason we talk about it every single conference is cause we haven't cracked it

[00:32:45] Ricardo Belmar: confidence, right? That's right.

[00:32:46] Ben Miller: generative AI has the potential to be able to help in in stalled areas. So there's three absolutely cool retail, pr drivers that we can see. cases for. So no wonder people are very excited on the plus side.

[00:32:57] We were, we were in the staff room just before we came [00:33:00] down, and I, we brought up chat, G b T, and I asked you chat, G b T what were the key themes from Shop Talk 2023. And of course he told me that unfortunately it's historic and can't can't Do that. So Krystina pointed out that maybe our jobs were secure for another year yet. So 

[00:33:13] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. 

[00:33:14] Ben Miller: we'll take, we'll take, we'll take that. 

[00:33:16] Ricardo Belmar: that's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I think you're, you're, you're spot on on that. I mean, I, I, I like to I sort of, I steal a, a quote from one of my colleagues at Microsoft who like tells everyone in every meeting, you know, if I haven't had five retailers I talked to today about generative, generative ai, it's only because the fourth retailer didn't get off the phone with me till the end of the day and I couldn't get to the fifth call

[00:33:37] Krystina Gustafson: I like that.

[00:33:38] That's a good one! 

[00:33:39] Ricardo Belmar: And, and it's, and it so true.

[00:33:40] And, and I think, you're right about the, different categories. I mean, one of our. Favorite customers that we, we talk about is CarMax, where they've taken this technology and, you know, one of, they found that one of the pain points in their customer journey is people go to their website and they wanna research the cars they have in inventory.

[00:33:57] And one of the tools, of course, is to look at reviews and [00:34:00] comments from people who've bought past cars. Well there are thousands of reviews! So you go on there and if you wanna look at a car, what's your, your choice is to read a thousand reviews before you decide what you want to go look at. Or maybe you just give up or you find some other tool to help you do that research.

[00:34:14] So they've actually leveraged these tools now to do all of that summarization for you. So you can go to their website now and you give it the parameters that interest you about a car. Their new AI tool just comes back to you with immediately the summarization across all those thousands of reviews.

[00:34:29] Here are the key points that you're interested in. Here's how it compares in these cars that you chose to look at.

[00:34:33] Krystina Gustafson: I need this so bad. The joke, the joke. in Our household is whenever we travel, I don't read anything. I literally, I just see, I see a pretty picture and I'm like, book. And it kills my husband. He is like the one that's reading

[00:34:44] Ricardo Belmar: He wants to research everything, right?

[00:34:46] Krystina Gustafson: my god. Every single thing. Well, I think the bars in the wrong place in this hotel or the room is only this many. Yeah, he's, he's, on, he's on it. And I am not So this, this, will help me be a better 

[00:34:55] Ricardo Belmar: you go,

[00:34:56] Krystina Gustafson: partner

[00:34:57] Retail Media Networks

[00:34:57] Ricardo Belmar: There you go. So I guess let me shift [00:35:00] then to the kind of the last one trending thing I wanted to ask you about because it's, it's one that, it's probably one of my favorites. So, over the past year, and Jeff likes to poke fun of me for this quite a bit.

[00:35:10] You know, I, I've been really big on retail media networks and knew I was going this way. And part of the reason why I've been beating the retail media network's drum for so long cuz I, I started talking about it back in, what did I talk October, 2021,

[00:35:23] Jeff Roster: it seemed like two decades

[00:35:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:25] But it, it's evolved and and I think, again, I think you, you guys mentioned this in this session, that really, what has it evolved to? It's become more about retailers looking more like a technology company and offering technology solutions and services to other retailers. . And I think that to me is a, is just really interesting into how their own, their whole core business is evolving.

[00:35:45] Krystina Gustafson: I think that Ben will jump out of his skin if he doesn't get to answer

[00:35:48] Ricardo Belmar: I know. Well, and I, and Ben's laugh and Ben's laughing, so anyone not who's not can't see this. I mean, Ben's laughing because he and I have had this conversation exactly before . 

[00:35:56] Krystina Gustafson: I don't, think, I don't think an hour goes by without ben talking [00:36:00] about in a, in a Very positive way. 

[00:36:02] Ricardo Belmar: We're, we're of like, minds . 

[00:36:03] we're of like minds.

[00:36:04] Ben Miller: I, I, I, You did a very good job leaving that to the last question, because otherwise we'd have lost a whole of the podcast. 

[00:36:10] Ricardo Belmar: else if we had started with that. Yes. , 

[00:36:12] Ben Miller: this is, it's what the, why is it so important and why do I get so interested about it? Because there's two levels. One, I think at the, our friend Andrew lipman Insider says it so well. this is the third wave of digital. 

[00:36:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. I absolutely, yeah, totally agree.

[00:36:26] Ben Miller: You see the numbers, okay, the numbers, let's be honest, the numbers are hugely hugely skewed by investment in search returns on Amazon, so yes, we recognize the prize, but you've gotta recognize that's skew in it. But when you strip that back, there is a marketing a digital marketing channel where, which has the opportunity to directly attribute sales to investment and whether retail media is more efficient than other digital marketing channels or at, or it's just that you can actually prove it, then actually that point is really valuable.

[00:36:59] [00:37:00] it's a, it's a phenomenal trend. It's a, it's a huge wave and what's been really exciting in this particular event, and yeah, we, we, we'll continue the conversation in a, a European Barcelona as well, I is to stand back and say, okay, we all know what retail media is now. We don't need to do that. a lot of us are doing it, really, how do we get efficient?

[00:37:19] Okay, do we, and do I need 600, retail media networks in my portfolio?

[00:37:23] Where, where do I spend the money? What's exciting about it is he's coming back to, and I think this is a point that we made Joe made during the zeitgeist, is it's about the basics of great advertising. So let's talk again about creative, let's talk about engagement, let's talk about generating fun, and this is another channel to enable us, us to do that.

[00:37:41] So that that, that's really exciting. The second element of it, which is why it's so important, is that element about changing relationships.

[00:37:49] This idea that a retailer is as, as well as a buyer, is now a seller to their vendors. And it's not, that's not just limited to retail media that, that think you have these, we call it [00:38:00]collaborative commerce networks, which is the sharing of logistics, for example. and when you're adding marketplaces and you see how the Their customers and we feel the retailers are changing and how do you do all of that and drive the margin that's there to be taken at the same time as keeping that laser focus? Cause we know that as soon as a retailer loses their laser focus on the customer, then that's a challenge for them. How do you balance those two together? And that's, that's still a working progress.

[00:38:30] And that's one of the fun conversations that we've been having and seeing where, seeing what next and seeing how retailers map that you've got. Yeah. If you are a serious retailer or a significant scale, you've got to be in the retail media game.

[00:38:40] You cannot leave that margin on the table. But how do you do it in a way that keeps focused on the customer and you're targeted now calling that out in their earnings reports to say to the center of their thinking. And that customer-centric approach to alternative revenue streams is gonna be a really interesting trend to 

[00:38:56] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I agree.

[00:38:57] Jeff Roster: yeah, I gotta tell you, Ricardo, so, so I was [00:39:00] kidding you about, you know, that. I spent probably three and a half hours yesterday about four different vendors. And I think I now begin, am only beginning to understand literally how much money we're talking about in re in, in retail media. And it is it's never been, I mean, it really was never a focus at the, at the other show in in the cold part of the country in January and it's ever present here. Yeah. And you can't, as an analyst, it covers the entire landscape. You can't get away with it. But the people that actually built some of this stuff I talked to. Right. And it's, and you know, it got the history and it's like, oh my gosh, we're not talking about something that's been around a hundred years.

[00:39:38] We're talking about something, it's really exploding the last three years.

[00:39:40] Ben Miller: yes, 

[00:39:41] Jeff Roster: And, and it's like, that's what he's been talking 

[00:39:45] Krystina Gustafson: Ricardo, I'd be curious your thoughts. One debate that we've kind of been having, and we haven't come up with an answer to it yet, is just kind of the dynamics of how this plays out in industries outside of grocery because. . That's of course been the industry that's adopted it the fastest, but yeah, the incestuousness of, [00:40:00] of that industry compared to department stores. Apparel. Yeah. Places where companies have the opportunity to be more D to C.

[00:40:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:40:06] Krystina Gustafson: Part of me wonders if it's as scalable there where the retailers don't have as much, let's go back to the word leverage as they do in the grocery industry. Like, have you thought about that at all? 

[00:40:16] Ricardo Belmar: I have because you're right. I mean, there is a very unique kind of trade relationship in grocery between grocers and the CPG companies that, that have all, you know, all those products. That's a different dynamic. . Then you look at a department store, which is maybe the easiest, I guess, example to kind of look at here, where there's so many third party apparel products, right?

[00:40:34] Yes. There's private labels in, in your department store. Generally people are shopping there because of all the, the name brands that are available. So what's the say equivalent opportunity? I, I've actually been saying, department stores to me feels like probably the number one most untapped opportunity for this, because I think department stores, we all say the same things, right?

[00:40:53] They've sort of lost their luster a little bit, right. Just are shopping less at department stores, but what could department [00:41:00] stores do to make this more interesting? You know, I would say one of those is they have to increase the, just the overall experience in the store. And if you think of visual impression as a consumer walking into a department store versus, any an apparel store where you just see apparel hung on rack.

[00:41:15] In a department store. I think the merchandising opportunities are much bigger. And if you think about the in-store advertising they can do with digital screens, not the sort where, you know, oh look, there's a screen hanging on the wall showing a video clip about this designer and their products running.

[00:41:30] Not that right, because anyone can do that. And, and that's probably my, my number one least favorite example that anyone can do. And, and I've, I've been working with digital signage. Since more than 10 years, and, and Jeff is laughing because one of the comments I keep making about retail media is from the early days back in the, you know, maybe early 2010s when I was marketing digital signage solutions, we talked to retailers about creating this kind of media network.

[00:41:57] It for their brand in their stores. And [00:42:00] not one retailer ever executed it well. The only, they all never got as far as, let's hang a screen here, let's hang a screen there and then ask brands to give us content. And I suppose part of the, the conclusion we had is that you can't ask IT to run that operation.

[00:42:13] It really needs to be run by marketing, but. If you think about what you can do with screen technology now that you couldn't do then, you're not limited by the form factor of a traditional TV monitor type screen. You can have the screen shaped any way you want and you can have any sort of visual layout for it.

[00:42:29] And if you do that, then I think that opens up new advertising opportunities for those brands that the department store can work with, that feels more, you know, lifestyle oriented. It feels more aspirational for the apparel merchandise that's there, that they can build off of and entice customers that when you walk by it, you feel like, oh yeah, if I was wearing that jacket, I, I could be doing what this person's doing on, on that video.

[00:42:51] I'd be out on the mountain, you know, doing, doing this. And I think it, it just creates a different feel that even if you went to that brand store, you know, they may or may not be [00:43:00]doing that, but uh, it's different and it's a different experience. So that's why I think that's an untapped opportunity for department stores, and I think that's where that needs to go.

[00:43:09] And that's why I think, adding the in-store component to retail media is so important right now. I think that's why, that's where the, the real story is gonna start to surface in, in this whole concept. 

[00:43:18] Krystina Gustafson: It's almost like a And I, I, that was really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. But it, it, it sounds to me so different than the conversations that we hear about retail media today. Right. I. Know some friends who work for some large CPG companies, and it's more of a conversation of, you have to do this, but what you're describing is like a desire to differentiate your brand.

[00:43:35] It, it, it feels like a, a shift in, in, in the why.

[00:43:38] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:43:38] Jeff Roster: Don't you also think though, that with grocery groceries had slotting fees for forever mm-hmm. , and it just sort of seems like that's a logical extension of the, those co-marketing allows going back and forth where, actually, I don't even know this, but I don't think department stores really have slotting fees because the, the product is constantly changing.

[00:43:54] So you have other, you have other something, but I, I mean, but

[00:43:57] Ricardo Belmar: way. I mean, you, you have you know, a designer [00:44:00] like a Ralph Lauren may have an arrangement. The departments are based on how much space they get on the floor. and is allocated for them as a brand. And then that dictates, you know, what merchandise do they make available to that department store versus a competitive department store that might give them more space and they make different merchandise available to them.

[00:44:15] It's kind of negotiated that way. Not quite the same as the slotting fees that CPG is doing. Grocery.

[00:44:20] Jeff Roster: and I think the other thing that's the big drivers, the fact, I mean, just who was on the, who was on the the exhibit floor TikTok, and what were they doing? There was at least three or four live streamers. So the idea that we're all creating, we're all creating content and want to create content. , I mean, and that now we're finally getting to the point where retailers are comfortable maybe not having everything be so hyper produced.

[00:44:40] You know, I think the, the best example I have is I just love B n h photo. And if, if you don't know what that is, it's, it's a, it's the best photo shop in, in the world and super high-end skill photographers that, that are selling camera equipment. And my first experience with, I dunno if it's live streaming, it's one-to-one.

[00:44:56] Working with them. I mean, for a camera shop, the, the video quality was [00:45:00] not very high. I mean, it was a little shocking, but it didn't matter because the expertise and the engagement for me sitting in Silicon Valley to, to Midtown Manhattan and that experience was amazing. And if retailers just embrace that and let their associates create or do whatever they want and, and, and produce all this content to fill up all the screens, you're gonna see it's gonna be great.

[00:45:21] What I don't wanna see is it becomes so. So over, over marketed and just take the soul out of it because retail should be passion. I mean, I think, I think my dad back in the seventies, you know, in his, his butcher shop, I mean, it was all about passion. It was about this and that, and engaging up and down and da, da, da, da.

[00:45:40] And, and I think in some ways as we expanded retail, we've lost that a little bit of passion. And maybe this is an opportunity, maybe it's a nice thing, you know, post covid.

[00:45:50] We've now re-embraced and learned and knew what we missed. And man, let's just have this retail renaissance and let's get back to the business of having, having fun and having [00:46:00]people engage in this process that we call retail.

[00:46:02] And then you, and then, you know, all those years you pitched me, you know, with those whole digital signages, now all of a sudden everything's coming together. The infrastructure, the screens, the cheap, you know, the the screens, the abil, the, the equipment we have to, to create all this content. And we have now, we've taught almost everyone, you know, if you have something to say, turn on your, your, your phone and, and shoot something out.

[00:46:25] Well, when retailers unleashed that, holy smokes

[00:46:28] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And, and now we have all these tools. Kinda coming back to the whole immersive commerce idea. You know, I, I just gave an example of using, fancy screen design, but it could be much more tactile and immersive with all these sensor technologies available.

[00:46:40] I could pick up a product in a store and that triggers something on, on some sort of visual environment nearby that to give me a different bit of content about it because I interacted with the merchandise and that we couldn't do that before. Right. So, so that's another new, new approach that couldn't, I think, and again, it's, it's in-store media and I think that's why that's gonna be such a, an

[00:46:58] Jeff Roster: yeah, that's, it's just gonna be such an [00:47:00] insane category. I mean, I almost want to go back to my forecasting days and just start trying to build a model out of that, cuz it is gonna be a massive number. A massive number.

[00:47:09] The Evolution of Shop Talk

[00:47:09] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I guess maybe the last thing to kind of wrap us up here we, we talked a little bit before about just how the, how Shop talk is changing itself and you guys announced a new Fall Shop Talk for next year.

[00:47:19] So I mean, anything you can share with us about how Shop Talk itself is evolving.

[00:47:23] Krystina Gustafson: Well, we are taking on new challenges listening to customer feedback and just really kind of growing the brand in new and exciting ways. I'll let Ben kind of tell you a little bit about Europe, cuz that's in six weeks time, which is hard to wrap your head around. But that's that's gonna be really fun.

[00:47:38] And Barcelona, we've got 175 speakers. I'm stealing all your thunder. But, but a fantastic lineup. That's gonna be in Barcelona and then I think. You know, Ben kind of said it earlier with just the number of meeting requests that we saw in our platform. We recognize that doing this once a year just isn't quite fulfilling the appetite that people have.

[00:47:55] And so I think you'll see us lean a lot more heavily into the networking component. I think we have a [00:48:00] real differentiator there with the Meetup platform. You know, it's not something that other events in the retail industry have, and so it's a real competitive edge. The fact that it's powered by technology, you know, even if someone tried to do it there's just feasibly no way to do it manually. And so I think you're gonna see us lean really heavily into that. And I think, you know, to your point about getting back to business, we love content. We're the content team. We're always gonna talk about how fantastic the content is.

[00:48:22] But the p the reason people are here is to be part of our community, right? And so the more that we can do to enable that is I think really kind of the direction that us going in the future. And, and that's kind of the impetus behind the, the new events that

[00:48:33] Ben Miller: So it, it is not at all daunting that we are doing it all again and just slightly,

[00:48:38] Krystina Gustafson: We've tried to black this out. We're like, let's talk about this after

[00:48:42] Ben Miller: but you know, look, it's less less than six weeks now, 9 to 11th of May in Barcelona a fabulous, progressive and dynamic city, which is just where we want to be for our brand.

[00:48:52] And the challenge of how do you drive retail innovation through digital [00:49:00]transformation in a tough operating environment is as pertinent in Europe as it is in the US. What you've then got a layer on top of that is 30 plus different countries, e-commerce in different states of development, very local retailers.

[00:49:15] So, we think the opportunity for Shop Talk in even greater than it is here. And the reason for that is you've got in their own domestic who are trying to crack the same problems as somebody maybe only 200 kilometers away, but they don't have a relationship with, but they don't compete.

[00:49:29] So the opportunity for collaboration, for cooperation, for learning Immense. So we are really excited about what we are building in, in Europe what we're gonna build in Barcelona. And yeah, the show will open at 11:00 AM on the ninth.

[00:49:44] Krystina Gustafson: on May. 

[00:49:45] keep saying, are you guys ready? We're like, well, it's It's coming. So 

[00:49:49] Ben Miller: we've got, we've got incredible lineup. We, the, the European retail and brand community have lent into the event stronger than they ever have done.

[00:49:56] This is only our second year in Europe, but we've got an incredible lineup. [00:50:00] And it will be both from a speaker, but especially from a, a delegate perspective.

[00:50:03] The most senior Event that we've ever put and we are seeing

[00:50:07] people think, you know what, this is a great way to get our teams together, to bring our individuals from across Europe into a place to, to learn and be inspired. And, and we can be more excited to facilitate that. And can't wait to again, to the Spanish sun because I dunno where you, I dunno where you guys move.

[00:50:22] The heat of bar of Las Vegas, but this has not been what I was expecting.

[00:50:26] when I escaped the London winter. So hopefully the

[00:50:29] Jeff Roster: listen, I'm from California. I'm just glad the, the water's not coming down and it's been a long time since the California and said No more water Stop for a while.

[00:50:38] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. That's right. Yep. Well, I, I guess listening to you a Ben, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of gonna gonna say we're, we're back to the people element A again, from what you were saying. So it sounds like super exciting for what's to come and, and shop talk Europe.

[00:50:49] Fantastic. Well, Krystina, Ben, I wanna thank you so much for sitting down and spending all this time with us. It's been a fantastic conversation. I, I think we've all learned a lot and congratulations on a really [00:51:00] great event again, once again this year. I think content was fabulous of course and just the, the energy and like we've been saying now multiple times, that it really brought all the people together, and I think that's probably the most important part of it.

[00:51:12] Ben Miller: Okay. We really appreciate it and thank you for having us,

[00:51:15] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks again. Well, Jeff, I think that wraps us up. 

[00:51:18] Jeff Roster: think we're done. Another good show.

[00:51:19] Ricardo Belmar: Another good show.

[00:51:20] Show Recap

[00:51:20] Casey Golden: Wow, that was such a great discussion you guys had with Christina and Ben, and you covered so much ground. And no surprise you had to cover generative AI and retail media networks in there too.

[00:51:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's true. There's no escaping the impact of generative AI right now, and yes, it did kind of feel like last year's metaverse. I mean, it was everywhere at the show in the sessions and everything, but I think there's an important difference that we kind of touched on that metaverse at last year's shop talk was all about experiments, right?

[00:51:59] [00:52:00] Trying to see what consumers would like. How would you transform that into commerce? But with generative ai, the use cases are already out there. They're being implemented with real world results as we heard in in some of the sessions at Shop Talk. Plus, this doesn't really require consumer adoption like the Metaverse does.

[00:52:18] It's more about operations and efficiency so far, and that does include consumer benefits that just don't require the consumer to adopt anything yet.

[00:52:26] Casey Golden: Yeah, what about the retail media piece? I caught the shout out to Andrew Lipsman, our, our favorite retail media analyst.

[00:52:33] Ricardo Belmar: Well, probably another obvious one, right? I did find it telling that shop Talk picked up on what we've been saying here before, that retail media is just the start of a B2B path for retailers to sell services to other retailers and brands as a high margin way to improve profitability.

[00:52:51] Casey Golden: We definitely will need to revisit these two topics more in our next season.

[00:52:55] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely.

[00:52:56] Casey Golden: So what's coming next with, , you and Jeff?

[00:52:59] Ricardo Belmar: Well, we've [00:53:00] got a few super interesting startups that we talked with, and we'll cap off the series with another great discussion coming with a couple of fan favorite guests. Now, I'll just give one hint. It's a follow up to one of our N R F Live conversations.

[00:53:13] Casey Golden: All right. Well, I think I know who that is. I mean, obviously I know since I know what's on the show, but do our listeners.

[00:53:22] Ricardo Belmar: We'll just have to wait and see on that one. but now I do want to thank both Krystina and Ben for joining Jeff and me for this discussion. I know it was quite a feat for them to make the time for this on the last day of the show, just a couple of hours before they went on stage to give their official wrap up presentation.

[00:53:39] So thank you both so much for joining us.

[00:53:42] Casey Golden: So with that, Ricardo, it's time for us to wrap up this first episode in Our Shop Talk Live mini-series crossover with Jeff Roster and This Week In Innovation. It's a wrap. 

[00:54:00] Show Close

[00:54:00] Casey Golden: if you enjoyed our shows this season, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Plus, you can watch us, not just listen, on our YouTube channel and like and comment on this season there too.

[00:54:19] And of course, if you wanna know more about what we talked about today, including a full transcript of each episode. Take a look at the show notes and handy links for more deets. I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[00:54:30] Ricardo Belmar: If you'd like to connect with us and share your thoughts on this season, follow us on Twitter at Casey C Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter and LinkedIn at Retail Razor for the latest updates. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar,

[00:54:45] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:54:47] ​

[00:54:50] Ricardo Belmar: and remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail if you cut through the clutter. Until next time, this is the Retail Razor Show. [00:55:00]

Direct-to-consumer. DTC. What emotional response do those words conjure for you? The formula for DTC used to be simple – spend marketing dollars to acquire new customers. Today, customer acquisition costs can be 10X higher than they used to be, so what should be the new strategy in these challenging, post-pandemic economic times? Polly Wong, president of Bellardi Wong, and our latest Retail Transformer, has the answers. Polly’s agency works with the best, most successful DTC brands and she is sharing the best practices every DTC founder, brand manager, and category manager need to know to be successful in this episode! Should you open stores? Leverage print? Catalogs? Is Facebook still worthwhile? What about TikTok? Listen and find out!

News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show has been nominated for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during NRF 2023 in January in New York City! IF you’re a fan of the show, please give us your vote! You can vote here: https://bit.ly/VIPretail 

News alert #2! We’ve moved up to #19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list, so please keep those 5-star reviews in Apple Podcasts coming! With your help, we’ll move our way further up the Top 20! Leave us a review to be mentioned in upcoming episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

The Retail Razor Show

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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TRANSCRIPT

S2E5 Retail Transformers - Polly Wong

[00:00:00] Pre-Intro

[00:00:00] Casey Golden: Ricardo, I've got one word for you to describe this week's show. Dtc. 

[00:00:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, so Casey, I'm thinking that's technically three words, but, but nevermind that. Um, I don't think we've done an entire show focused on DTC before, have we?

[00:00:13] Casey Golden: Hey, I didn't write the script. So

[00:00:21] So this is exciting and. I'm especially pumped for all 

[00:00:24] the DTC founders out there tuning in. This one is for you.

[00:00:28] Ricardo Belmar: That's true, and honestly, if you're a direct to consumer founder listening or, or watching us on YouTube, stop right now. Go grab a pen and paper or your iPad or whatever you like to use to take notes, because believe me, you are going to be writing things down nonstop in a mad fury throughout this episode.

[00:00:45] Casey Golden: Oh yeah. The tips and tricks are going to be flying. And you just don't wanna miss a

[00:00:50] minute.

[00:00:51] Ricardo Belmar: So should we just start the show or should we make listeners suffer a little bit more first, with more of our carefree and eloquent banter,

[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Oh, you're so cruel. Let's get to the music already. 

[00:00:59]

[00:01:19] Show Intro

[00:01:19] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to season two, episode five of The Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:01:25] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome to the Retail Razor Show listeners, retail's unapologetically authentic podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everybody else in retail and tech alike. 

[00:01:39] Ricardo Belmar: We are 

[00:01:40] back with another 

[00:01:41] episode in our Retail Transformers series, and honestly, if you thought last episode's guest, Alan Smithson was an absolutely incredible, never ending source of value on the Metaverse, wow are you gonna be blown away with today's guest and topic!

[00:01:54] Casey Golden: Yeah. As a founder, I'm so excited we're going to dive into this world of D to C and talk with amazing expert that's working with most of the top D to C brands out there. You would not believe how much knowledge she has to share, and that could really impact your DTC business by multiples 

[00:02:16] Ricardo Belmar: Indeed! Faithful followers, you will learn exactly why Polly Wong is more than meets the eye. This may go down as one of our most listened to episodes. We're gonna hear about what the right marketing and media spend mix should be for customer acquisition today. Because honestly, if you think it's the same as it was in the early days of D to C, boy are you in for a shock.

[00:02:35] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, did you even consider print, like say catalogs? I bet you didn't. You will after this episode.

[00:02:44] Ricardo Belmar: And then there's all the tips you're gonna hear 

[00:02:46] on growth strategies, how to activate your CRM for more profitable growth, retargeting those customers. And what about opening stores? Have you thought about where to open stores? 

[00:02:55] Casey Golden: There's just so much we could list. I mean, you're going to hear so many incredible 

[00:03:00] nuggets on marketing, roi, ROAS, and just so much more. 

[00:03:04] Ricardo Belmar: All right, then let's get to it. 

[00:03:06] Casey Golden: Let's roll.

[00:03:07]

[00:03:12] Polly Wong Interview

[00:03:12] Ricardo Belmar: And we're here with our special guest and latest retail transformer to visit the show. Polly Wong, President of Belardi Wong, which some people may know as a direct to consumer marketing agency. But more on that in a moment. First of all, welcome Polly.

[00:03:26] Polly Wong: Thank you for having me.

[00:03:27] Casey Golden: It's great to have you on the show. Since we first met you, we've both been looking forward to this conversation and really digging in. So excited 

[00:03:36] Ricardo Belmar: Polly just to get us started, why don't you give us a more complete introduction of yourself and tell us about your company and what you do.

[00:03:42] Polly Wong: You know, I've been in retail for 25 years. I've had an incredible amount of experience. Really. It's both on the client side at some major retailers. I started 25 years ago at eddiebower.com. I was fortunate to work at Williams Sonoma Inc across their portfolio of brands before jumping to the dark side to the agency side, which is a lot of fun and an incredible learning curve.

[00:04:06] It's like learning on steroids, I like to say. Today at Belardi Wong, we have 400 active clients, about 90% D TO C brands. Of course, D to C brands have stores as well. And then some very large retail brands that that all of you would know as well. A tremendous amount of experience in fashion, at home decor, furnishings also in some niche categories as well.

[00:04:28] We definitely do tend to work with premium brands targeting an affluent consumer. So much of the vantage point that I have to share with you today is really from that angle of brands who are really targeting, you know, an affluent consumer. The folks out there buying, you know, two or $300 sweaters and expensive shoes and $5,000 sofa.

[00:04:47] So I, I like to make that clearer, but we're really privileged just to have an incredible vantage point into the industry. 

[00:04:53] Casey Golden: Really excited to dig deeper in this. As I mentioned before, I'm very intrigued in, in, into the side of the business of marketing. Compared to a lot of the more traditional route that have been taken over the last decade. So clearly you're focused on direct to consumer brands, both old and new, but certainly more established brands.

[00:05:10] I think based off of what you said, one of the areas getting a lot of press lately in the D to C space is really how the marketing spend is being shifted from Facebook, Google, versus other mediums. Can you tell us a little bit about what's happening here with D to C brands and how that's changing this marketing mix?

[00:05:30] Polly Wong: Sure. So it's been a really fascinating year to watch how the Apple platform changes have really impacted all of the digital platforms. Specifically meta we've found, as an aside, we've found that really Google is quite a resilient, steady, reliable channel. You know, Google continues to make enhancements that work for advertisers.

[00:05:52] Performance Max on Google has worked very well for our clients over the last several months, so, so Google's very kind of reliable and steady. Google has had 10 to 50% increase, 10 to 15% increases. And, you know, costs, but really in line with kind of all the cost increases we're seeing across the p and l as a brand or as a retailer.

[00:06:12] So really the challenge on the digital side in the last year has really come from meta and the Apple platform changes basically led. To less effective targeting and less effective measurement. And at the same time that our clients have seen a less effective measurement and less effective targeting on meta, they've also seen some pretty steep double digit increases on CPMs, on meta or Facebook, if you will.

[00:06:38] And so we've seen dramatic underperformance in the last year, specifically in the social landscape. And so, you know, D to C brands inherently were built on Facebook and Google. The inherent DNA, if you will, of, of D to C brands is that one, they're performance based marketers, and two, you know, they're just wholeheartedly focused on new customer acquisition.

[00:07:01] And so now you've seen that this Facebook channel just, you know, one of the top two most critical channels for new customer acquisition for DTC brands has really begun to plummet in the last year. I know across our client base through August, our clients have spent 19% less this year versus last year on Meta.

[00:07:21] And that's because of the significant underperformance. But obviously Meta has taken the lion share of most of the marketing dollars for D2C brands. So, the question is, where is it going? You know, where are they shifting marketing spend? And that's been really interesting to 

[00:07:35] Casey Golden: That's great, and you really mention it as like a CRM strategy. 

[00:07:39] Is that, Is that right? 

[00:07:40] Spending shifts and pivots

[00:07:40] Polly Wong: Yeah, so I think, well, I think we can talk about kind of where they're shifting their spend, but also, you know, what are some of the, the pivots that D to C brands need to make in order to be successful. And I think most D2C brands have not realized yet that the most incredible asset that they have is the customer file, the customer database.

[00:08:01] That they've built up over the last five to 10 years. Now they've spent millions and millions of dollars building their customer file. New customer acquisition always comes at a cost. It's an investment. You cannot have a profitable business when you are only focused on acquisition as a fact.

[00:08:15] Casey Golden: Oh my God, can you just like, say that 

[00:08:17] Ricardo Belmar: we should just frame that just to make that clear for, for everyone who's doubting that 

[00:08:22] Casey Golden: We're putting that in bold print.

[00:08:24] Polly Wong: Yes. Also I'll just go out on a limb and also say you can't have a large, scalable, sustainable business when you only have a handful of product as well, we can get to that later. But definitely you can't just single handidly focus on new customer acquisition so I actually see, you know, there's a lot of headwinds right now, but I see a major tailwind that D to C brands could lean into is really crm, right? You know, I've talked to many, many brands over the years that when you ask them, they say they spent a hundred percent of their marketing budget on acquisition, and it's almost like crm, customer retention management. It's just an afterthought, right?

[00:08:59] Like, Oh, we have email now, of course they'll say, We have email and sms. But there are really five major channels in the CRM toolbox, and we don't see D to C brands leaning into that. It's a discipline and a skill set they need to evolve to very quickly because that's where the profit is going to come, as we kind of stare down some economic uncertainty.

[00:09:18] So the five channels that we really think about, obviously e email. Second is sms. Some clients have leaned into it very quickly. Some have not. It's still a huge opportunity. I, for one, wondered at the beginning if really SMS would just be shifting sales from email, but we do find that SMS is an incremental revenue driver.

[00:09:37] So you've got email and sms. Obviously D to C brands are pretty good at targeting their customer file on Facebook, but they let it work too often on its own. And you really have to think about the segmentation and targeting of lapse customers. You have to carve out specific marketing dollars at targeting customers who've not bought from you in over a year.

[00:09:58] There's still a better focus for your marketing dollar than pure new customer acquisition. And so you really wanna target your lapse customer file, on Facebook, and you wanna make sure you're looking at the frequency and the messaging and the targeting and the testing against that segment. 

[00:10:13] So now hopefully you've got brands, you know, leveraging and leaning into reactivation on social. I think what we don't find enough is actually proactive spending on search with your lapse customers. Let's say that Mary Jane bought a sweater from you a year and a half ago, and now Mary Jane is on Google searching for a turquoise turtleneck sweater.

[00:10:36] You should be there targeting her. You should be buying that ad against Mary's search, right? Her click, you should be targeting her. And so really targeting lapse customers when they're searching for your product is a huge opportunity. We don't see clients carving out marketing dollars to really have that kind of proactive approach at customer reactivation on search, so I think that's a low hanging opportunity.

[00:11:00] And then for definitely print. So all 400, you know, retailers and brands here, at Belardi Wong, are in the mail. They're leveraging direct mail and catalogs for customer retention. It's extremely effective. And driving up purchase frequency and revenue per customer and overall lifetime value. The great thing about print is that, you know, you've got a hundred percent reach.

[00:11:22] So if you want to target Mary Jane who bought from you a year and a half ago she's gotta at least touch the piece to recycle it, so you've got a hundred percent reach. All of our data over the last year as we've looked at it, we've found that if you want to target a specific customer at a specific time within social, you've got about an 18% chance.

[00:11:43] Basically, you've got an 18% chance of reaching who you want. When you want to on Facebook, and that's because you're competing with other advertisers for her impression. Mary Jane your customer only has so much impressions and frequency on Facebook and you're competing with other advertisers, and especially in our case, as I said, our clients tend to target, you know, affluent consumers and so Mary Jane is a great shopper and there's a lot of advertisers who want her impressions, and so you can't be sure that you're going to reach her.

[00:12:13] And on email, you know, maybe you're lucky if you've got a 20, 25% open rate, but once you start looking at your lapse customers, maybe you've got a 10 or 15% open rate. And so the only way that you could make sure that you get a hundred percent reach is in the mail. And so we see this CRM toolbox with email, sms, social, search and print really is a major opportunity for D to C brands who built very expensive customer files at this point, to really lean into that as a major growth strategy.

[00:12:42] Casey Golden: It seems so basic, but yet at the same time, like, but nobody's doing it. , Right. Is to like really go back into that core of, of all those customers.

[00:12:54] Ricardo Belmar: And I, and I thought that a lot of these DTC would have used search when. came up, right, to try to get that initial customer acquisition. So I, I find it kind of curious that if, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I, it seems to me that that's one of the original tactics I expect to see DTC brands use at the start, maybe they don't come back to it, to your point.

[00:13:15] Polly Wong: You know, we don't see a fine level of segmentation and targeting honestly, within digital media buying. You know, I, I think about digital media agencies and I think of them as master tinkerers, and I can almost just see all the people behind the scenes, almost like behind a clock, you know, turning the dial a little bit this way and a little bit that way.

[00:13:33] And it's really about bids and CPMs and it's about creative and frequency and the type of ad. It's really not about. Okay, This is our cheerleader cohort. This is our loyalist cohort. This is our, you know, former cheerleader cohort meeting. This used to be a best customer, and now she's not a best customer.

[00:13:52] What percent of our spend are we going to target against her? What should be the target cost to retain? You know, the industry talks about the target cost of acquisition, you know, the cost to acquire a new customer, but you never hear anyone talk about the cost to retain a customer. And I think we're gonna have to see a major shift in how people think.

[00:14:11] I think that's the one thing in my, my 25 years in retail. I think there has to be an inherent pivot for D to C brands to embrace some of the real kind of retail operation discipline that has existed, you know, for many years and has allowed companies to exist for decades and to become billion dollar retailers.

[00:14:30] And that definitely includes financial planning. It includes inventory planning, merchandise planning, and definitely really thinking about, you know, your target customer and your segmentation and CRM and how you're allocating those dollars.

[00:14:46] Casey Golden: I always say, if you spent 

[00:14:49] half as much time retaining your customers as you spent all of these resources on acquiring them, you'd have a completely different business.

[00:14:58] Polly Wong: Yeah. You know, and I think we we're seeing, I think it's actually kind of exciting. There are definitely always some D to C brands who are leading in the space and we see. Really three major growth strategies and definitely activating more channels for both CRM and for active acquisition. You know, testing TikTok, testing connected TV or streaming tv, leaning into print for both acquisition and crm.

[00:15:22] And so definitely activating more marketing channels is an important opportunity for D to C brands. But also, I can emphasize enough, and I touched on this earlier, as a matter of fact, the more product you put in front of. Across categories and price points, the more revenue you will drive from her. And I always tell people, I learned two things in my years, at Williams Sonoma Inc.

[00:15:45] When I was on the client side. The first is that the best way to drive response rates is to have a range of product across categories and price points. So, okay, you know, she bought a sofa from you, what is she gonna buy next? And that's why you see these types of brands have an incredible assortment in tabletop and seasonal decor and all of those other categories, bed and bath.

[00:16:06] The second thing I learned at Williams Sonoma I tell people, is that on my second day on the job Chuck Williams himself, so I'm dating myself a little bit, he said to me, Polly, you know how you sell a $200 toaster? You put a $400 toaster next to it? And I never forgot that 

[00:16:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And, it completely makes sense. I mean, I to, I have to give credit to William Sonoma, right? Who has, mastered that technique of positioning and curating the right selection at different price points to drive a particular one that you might wanna drive, I think they, I've an amazing job at doing that, and that's certainly a lesson a lot of DTC brands would need to learn.

[00:16:40] And, and also kind of speaks. Theory, I've always put out that, you know, so many of these DTC brands that came to be, know, is digitally native, know, wanted to just disrupt one particular product they started with that one product and I always felt that, you know, the one question that does not get asked when they're seeing some initial success, right?

[00:17:02] They're getting a lot of new customers, they weren't thinking through, okay, what's the frequency with which these customers I've paid to 

[00:17:10] Polly Wong: Yes. 

[00:17:11] Ricardo Belmar: now in some way are going to buy again the 

[00:17:14] Polly Wong: Yes, exactly. 

[00:17:17] How often? ,

[00:17:18] Ricardo Belmar: most things people don't buy every week.

[00:17:20] Polly Wong: Absolutely. So how often do you need to buy a mattress and how often do you need to buy a suitcase? Right? Thinking 

[00:17:26] Ricardo Belmar: Two. two, good examples.

[00:17:27] Polly Wong: popular, 

[00:17:28] Ricardo Belmar: good examples. 

[00:17:28] Adopting Basic Retail Operations

[00:17:28] Polly Wong: Brands that we've seen now struggle to grow. Absolutely. You know there are some really great smart brands out there. You know, we've seen a lot of the really high growth soft goods companies, so bedding companies, you know, there's a reason why they launch into lounge wear, right?

[00:17:43] There's a reason why they launch into bath, right? So you see these bedding soft good companies launch into other categories because, okay, so I bought a set of sheets. I bought, you know, a beautiful comforter, but what am I gonna buy next from you? And you've seen home brands lean into apparel.

[00:18:00] You've seen apparel brands lean into home. You know, we're going to continue to see that. Absolutely. But honestly, you know, we were just putting together some strategies internally for clients cuz there are, as I said earlier, a significant amount of headwinds, I think facing brands and retailers in the next six to 12 months.

[00:18:18] There's a lot of really inexpensive ways that don't require a lot of research and development that don't require a lot of product development and long timelines. We were doing an assessment for a women's apparel company. And we were looking at their tops and we were looking at tops and the price points and the sizes and the colors of their competitive set.

[00:18:38] And as we were looking at the tops, we realized, you know, you sell that long sleeve basic tee in four colors, but on average your competitors sell their long sleeve basic tee in eight to 10 colors. And also you sell yours for $8 more on average. And so maybe if you could take and just add color ways, take your top selling.

[00:18:59] Products and add new colorways. Think about, you know, how much would a four, $6 price cut to be competitive? What kind of incremental revenue would that bring? And I think it's that type of merchandise analysis and merchandise planning and inventory management that honestly is a discipline that D to C brands don't inherently have.

[00:19:17] So it's time, as I said earlier, to hire some good old fashioned retail operations 

[00:19:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's an 

[00:19:22] That. an excellent point and 

[00:19:23] it's one that I think that has never been quite so obvious, right, to the DTC brands, because they had that single minded, I have this one product that we're gonna disrupt. It's this one product category, this one selection we're gonna disrupt. And there wasn't enough thought to, Well, what happens next? After you've done that? 

[00:19:37] I, do wanna ask you one question because you know, when Casey and I were thinking of, what we, we were gonna learn from you in this episode, and we thought, it really tells a story about that we think of as, you know, making old media, new media in a way, in a sense that as you've been describing to us now, different marketing mix and moving from a lot of pure.

[00:19:57] Digital marketing spend to other perhaps more, more traditional, maybe some non-traditional, because I heard connected TV in there as well. But I'm really intrigued by the success your clients are having in print and with catalogs, which call that maybe the most traditional option a lot of brands can go with.

[00:20:14] and when we've spoken to you before, you've mentioned that. When people hear catalog, sort of have an idea in their head of what that might look like. But what you're now with your, your, your clients is not exactly the same kind of format. I, I think it's a much. And maybe you could tell us a little bit more about what's evolved in this, in the print catalog space.

[00:20:33] Polly Wong: Yeah. They're not your mother's catalogs anymore. You know, it used to be that you have a hundred page catalog and you've got, you know, five to 10 items per page and you put the whole store inside the catalog. And it used to be that, 80% of catalogs went to women over 55. And she only bought what she saw on the page.

[00:20:51] And there's been just really a fundamental shift. First of all, there is a significant amount of print pieces folded pieces, catalogs going in home, The 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds. And so now the catalog isn't something you, you shop from the, the catalog or the direct mail piece is a channel driver and it's driving her to the store to buy or is driving her to e-commerce to buy.

[00:21:15] And over the years, as we've analyzed the results, we've seen and found that actually only about a third of the product that she buys after she gets the piece was depicted in the piece, meaning that two outta three times what she buys was not in the actual piece, but it drove her to the site or it drove her to the store.

[00:21:34] So she thought she wanted one sweater, she got to the site, she bought a different sweater, So as we began to understand that there was a new purpose to print that really it was to drive her to a channel to engage and then to buy, right? Always measuring, of course, the ROAS, actually, I think it's ironic, catalogers were really the original D to C brands and catalogers were always performance based marketers.

[00:21:57] So I like to throw that out there. But today, especially for our fashion clients and our home brand clients, definitely catalogs look more like look books they're more aspirational, more lifestyle photography, more storytelling. You know, we actually one of the most successful catalogs in history and the thousands and thousands and thousands of campaigns we measured, when you open up this catalog, the first two spreads are actually just really an aspirational story.

[00:22:25] And yet it was extremely productive as measured by sales. And so really you're here to engage the customer and to drive her to a channel to buy, and that is the ultimate goal. Now, what we've found, depending on the product assortment, depending on the price point, depending on the target consumer, First of all, you don't have to send a full, so full, huge catalog anymore, right?

[00:22:46] So most of our clients are sending catalogs that are maybe 28 or 36 pages, but not, you know, 80 plus pages. So you don't have to send her as many pages. You don't have to put the whole store. In the catalog, you wanna just say, Here's our our new products, here's our best sellers, and you wanna be compelling and you wanna send her to the channel to buy that she wants to buy in.

[00:23:08] And then also we've seen a whole new lifeline because print is acting as this channel driver and you don't have to put the full assortment in front of her. We've seen an incredible amount of success with folded pieces. You know, here is our top five new products of the season. Check it out online, check it out in store.

[00:23:25] And so we've found that there's a different messaging and creative strategy also because of this kind of new purpose and how consumers are interacting with print. And I should say that it, it has been an amazing ride. Really just, you know, hundreds of new brands in the mail the last couple of years.

[00:23:42] But, you know, starting over a decade ago, we launched brands like Shutterfly, Minted, Revolve, Zappos, One Kings Lane. You know, we Allbirds, right? We started with Allbirds had zero customers. You know, over a decade ago we launched all of these brands into the mail. And so some folks I think already could see it, you know, early on.

[00:24:03] I think what's happened is that the cost of digital marketing has become extremely competitive and saturated and promotional and expensive, and you can't always reach who you wanna reach. There's an amazing amount of real estate in print to tell your story and to put your product, and also it's effective for both.

[00:24:20] Crm. I would say that mailing customers is like printing money, but also for new customer acquisition. We tend to work with premium brands and you know, to get someone to buy a $300 sweater from you when they've never heard of your brand before, the amount of real estate goes a long way in convincing new customers to buy.

[00:24:36] Ricardo Belmar: That's a good point cuz in those scenarios, right, you're really asking that new customer to buy your story as much as your product.

[00:24:43] Polly Wong: Absolutely. And you know, I think there's an amount of credibility and authority just as stores give D to C brands credibility. I think the same is can be set of print and I like to say that millennials can spot a manufactured brand from a mile away. And I think that there's an amount of real estate that you have to tell your story.

[00:25:03] And if it's authentic, like we have clients, brands like Outer known who just have incredible, authentic story around sustainability and apparel. And a really, you know, just a huge commitment to that as a business. And they're able to build that story with their community through print 

[00:25:19] On Opening Stores

[00:25:19] Casey Golden: one of the initiatives that's been happening lately that has me very excited, just cuz I think we all kind of started in stores, is more of these digitally native brands or pure play brands actually opening up stores and more pop up. I'm a big advocate of the in-store experience. Not that many of us have had one lately, but with the world closed for a little bit.

[00:25:42] But I think it's a great opportunity to actually connect. Are you, are you helping them essentially kind of understand where they should be potentially opening up stores or opening up popups or working on that strategy based on, because you guys know so much about where the consumer lives and that community, 

[00:26:02] Polly Wong: Certainly you can build models regarding, you know, around trade areas to understand where your customers are at today and where your perspective best customers are at. I think to answer your original question though, you know, around just this kind of continued push of D to C brands in stores, honestly, it's really, really very simple.

[00:26:26] in any category, more than 50% of sales are still in physical stores. So if you're not selling either in your own stores or on the floor at Nordstrom's, for example, if you're not building your wholesale network, then you're missing out on 50% of your market. And so that's really what it comes down to. I think one of the things that I find more encouraging today about the retail landscape than I did before the pandemic.

[00:26:54] Before the pandemic. You just saw almost an absurd level of store openings from DTC brands. Brands that were suddenly opening 20, 30, 40 stores a year. When you open stores that quickly, you're not going into just a markets, you're not negotiating the best real estate deals. You aren't taking the time to build the models to understand where your customers are and where your best.

[00:27:17] New perspective customers are, but I think what's great to see is I'm seeing a more cautious approach. I'm seeing the D to C brands understand they need to have a physical footprint and that maybe at the same time, now they're only opening up five to seven stores a year. They're also exploring partnerships with department stores and other retailers to be on their floor.

[00:27:38] We have so many brands that we work with who sell on the floor at Anthropology, for example. And so I think that most of our clients have realized you have to have that physical presence in order to reach your customer where she's at when she's shopping, and also because it's a significant business opportunity.

[00:27:55] I also think, I mean, there's no question, you know, there is, I think, better real estate deals to be had in 'A' markets because of the amount of store closings in the last couple of years, I think there are still some significant opportunities in terms of finding the right space, the right price with the right consumer.

[00:28:12] And so I think that's very encouraging. I think from what I've last seen, this is gonna be the first year in a very, very long time where the number of store openings will actually outpace the number of store closings 

[00:28:22] Casey Golden: Yeah. I kind of saw, you know, it's nice to see that this, this natural transition, essentially it's all coming back to all these different channels and touch points where there was that moment. where it's just like you just need to be online and everybody else is doing it wrong, and then you just see it come full circle where they're starting to join. We've already went through this cycle.

[00:28:45] Polly Wong: Well, you said it yourself. Yeah, you said it yourself. What's old is new again, honestly, to me, advertising on podcasts, it's radio. to me, connected TV is TV advertising, right? Like it's all we've been through these channels. Even outdoor media is having a huge resurgence right out of home media. And so I think that, you know, what it really comes down to is that the most sophisticated marketers have realized that you need a channel mix.

[00:29:13] Online, offline, you need to be where your customer is at. You need to have multiple distribution channels, you need to have multiple products. And I think that the high growth brands, you know, have realized that, and I think everyone else is beginning to learn as well.

[00:29:25] On marketplaces 

[00:29:25] Ricardo Belmar: So let me ask you too, on, on, that Polly, one of the areas that I, I think is also interesting here is how these brands leverage different marketplaces you know, within that channel mix. I mean, what, what are your thoughts there and how do you advise brands around marketplaces?

[00:29:39] Polly Wong: Definitely D to C brands have had a lot of, you know, trepidation around the marketplaces. I definitely think though that they're going to be forced to consider it. we've already found is, we've just discussed that you can't have an e-commerce only business. And so we saw these e-commerce brands open up stores, and then we saw them add wholesale partners. And so now really the last major distribution channel as a source of revenue growth is the marketplaces.

[00:30:03] And historically, D to C brands have been very protective of their brand's message and of their new customers. And they don't want to let anyone kind of expose their brand other than how they want it presented. However, I do think that the pressure to continue to drive revenue with all of these headwinds and because the reality is that all consumers are on the marketplaces, and you know, now we've got Macy's leaning into their marketplace.

[00:30:30] I mean, every single major retailer is going to have their own marketplace online as well. I think you have to be there. I think, you know, we're finding clients kind of tiptoe into it. They're testing different strategies. They might only put part of their assortment within the marketplaces. They might actually develop a specific collection for the marketplaces.

[00:30:50] So definitely I think they're cautious. But I think that they're going to be forced to consider trying it in ways they might not have a few years ago because they've gotta drive revenue growth. And because there are so many, you know, headwinds, unfortunately at the moment,

[00:31:05] Retail Media Networks

[00:31:05] Ricardo Belmar: So one of the other big trends that we're talking about this season on our show are retail media networks. We've, dedicated an episode on it. I was just at the grocery shop event and that was a huge, huge trend there as well.

[00:31:17] So I'm curious, what, what's your recommendation for brands around you know, whether it's with the marketplaces that they may be new to or as they're getting into stores and, and wholesale agreements there? How are you advising DTC brands around retail media networks?

[00:31:31] Polly Wong: You know, it's interesting. I don't think that we'll see D to C brands leverage their own assets and their own impressions and their own emails and their own social for advertising income and revenue. Because D to C brands usually are not big enough to actually make it worthwhile to suddenly open up their own assets for advertising, but certainly as it relates to the really large retailers and the real large marketplaces, I don't know why you wouldn't choose to advertise there.

[00:32:01] You know, in order to make that advertising work, those platforms have to offer the level of targeting and segmentation that will drive the performance to justify the CPMs and the media spend. Why would you not test it? I mean one, I think really positive quality of DTC brands is that usually they're willing to test anything.

[00:32:19] And I think in this case, not only why would you not test it and consider it, as long as you know that your target consumer is there from a sociodemographic profile perspective. But in some cases, if you are going to play, for example, on the marketplaces, you have to buy media on the marketplaces. It's not like if you build that, they will come.

[00:32:37] You've gotta have the advertising dollars to actually support your sales on the marketing place on the marketplace.

[00:32:42] Casey Golden: for a lot of our listeners. I'm sure they've been nodding their heads as as you speak. There's a lot of question marks though still 

[00:32:49] for anybody who hasn't been looking at their, their media spend in this way. What should brands be looking at a D to C or D to C brands? Be looking at a media spend breakdown.

[00:33:01] You know, what portion are you seeing more of a trend? Because we see it's so scary to move a portion of your business over to something new, even if it's starting to break, There's what are, what do you see more as a breakdown? Just so people can go ahead and make the shift and just close their eyes and go

[00:33:21] Polly Wong: Yeah. large brands that we see, large brands and retailers that we see doing well, that are significant in size and have e-commerce and have stores, they've really shifted to almost a 40, 40 20 marketing mix where 40% of their spend is digital marketing. 40% is offline, which could include actually tv, radio, print, out of home media.

[00:33:47] And then 20% is really PR partnerships, sponsorships, influencers, you know, things around content and community. So, You know, to 40% across the digital channels, 40% across all kind of other, you know non-digital channels. And then what's really encouraging to see and smaller brands can't afford often to spend, you know, top of funnel.

[00:34:12] But as a matter of fact, high growth brands do spend top of funnel. And so you'll see the. Companies are beginning to carve out 10 to 20% of their spend. So they get the pr, they get the influencers, they get the sponsorships and the partnerships that allows them to build community.

[00:34:27] Launching Direct Mail

[00:34:27] Casey Golden: So if there's a, if there's a direct to consumer brand right now that's listening what's the ballpark range they'd need to be? Looking at for budgeting to launch a campaign a, a direct mail campaign.

[00:34:40] Polly Wong: Okay. Well, I thought you were gonna ask a bigger picture question. What percent of top line revenue do you have to spend high growth, emerging brands are spending, you know, 20 to 25% of top line revenue on marketing. Mature businesses spend closer to 10 to 15% of top line revenue on marketing and big retailers and wholesale brands might only spend, you know, six to 10% of their top line revenue on marketing.

[00:35:10] But definitely if you're an emerging DTC brand today, you're definitely spending 20 to 25% of your top line revenue. So for every hundred dollars, you're spending 20 to 25 dollars. To get that. So just in terms of what you have to spend as an emerging brand to get traction. Absolutely. If you think you can build a brand from scratch that's spending, you know, $10 on the a hundred dollars, it'll never happen.

[00:35:34] Unfortunately, those days are, are past us in terms of, you know, really testing print, well here at Ballardi Wong, we only, you know, we run the largest, you know, Scalable, sophisticated programs in the country. So we don't do anything small, cheaper, schlossky. So we're, we're a little bit more on the premium side here . Really to get.

[00:35:52] A solid proof of concept with all of the industry best practices in place for both CRM and acquisition. You're looking at about a 75 to a hundred thousand dollars test in print and we've launched over 250 DTC brands into the mail successfully. And even little baby ones with a few thousand customers and they're all spending that much money.

[00:36:11] So on their first campaign still less expensive, you know, still half as much as a three week TV campaign. So,

[00:36:18] Casey Golden: mean hey, I mean, I mean that could just be one post by a tick, a certain, a couple TikTok influencers too. So, I 

[00:36:25] mean, you 

[00:36:26] know, 

[00:36:26] Polly Wong: That's the, you know, here's the ironic thing. You can put a beautiful full size catalog in front of a consumer for 85 cents. Your cost per click nowadays is, you know, two or $3. So the thing that's really crazy is that you can mail. 4, 5, 6 catalogs to a highly targeted audience for the cost of one click.

[00:36:47] So I think that that's, you know, it seems expensive, but actually, quality touch, yes, it's 

[00:36:54] Casey Golden: I agree. And it's really just being able to say like, instead of spending that hundred k, the 200,000 on this, let's just go ahead and move it over here and run a test. Because I think everything that you've really kind of ran through through this conversation and what you guys are doing is just, it's, it's incredibly compelling. And it's a lot of things that potentially these customer bases or the brands are just not as familiar with because they don't have a lot of seasoned retailers in their company orgs. And so a lot of it, we see somebody doing something or like, you really only have one product. Like you do realize that there's like issues with this who gave you. You know, and then now those 

[00:37:43] conversations 

[00:37:44] Polly Wong: think, well, you know what's gonna be really interesting to see is that it's not gonna be very easy. We're already finding this. We actually do due diligence on D to C transactions because of all of our experience at Belardi Wong. And not this summer, but last summer we worked on six transactions, and this summer we didn't work on any transactions.

[00:38:03] I think very quickly. It's going to be a very tough landscape for raising dollars at this moment in time. And already the industry has become a little bit weary because some of the evaluations and the losses that have happened over the last couple of years. And so I think companies are gonna have to be scrappier and smarter because it's not gonna be so easy to get someone to give you, you know, 20, $30 million just like that. 

[00:38:25] Casey Golden: Yeah. no, I mean yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I, I think that this is, I'm really excited to see some comments once this kind of goes, gets pushed out because I know that this is gonna be some new content that they haven't really thought about as even an option think it's 

[00:38:39] Using Influencers 

[00:38:39] Ricardo Belmar: I I, do wanna go back to one thing that you mentioned in the 40 40 20 split where you had in that 20%, you know, kind of lump together in, in pr, things like influencers, and that tends to get a lot of attention. Around, you know, what brands are spending with influencers and how they're using them.

[00:38:56] Are they on TikTok yet? What? are you seeing there that's actually successful?

[00:39:01] Polly Wong: You know, the truth is, is that for most clients you know, influencers can reach a small target community. But we haven't seen for most clients a huge amount of scale unless you're willing to spend, a few hundred thousand dollars, with an influencer who really has significant reach and real influence on what consumers are buying.

[00:39:25] We just haven't found that for most of our clients, that actually influencers can drive any kind of sustainable scale. So maybe you pay a lot of money and you know, Mary Jane, the influencer does a series of posts maybe over two weeks about some of your new product. Maybe you get a momentary surge in sales, but it's not sustainable and you can't continue to spend those kinds of dollars for those really high touch posts. And so the one challenge that we do find with influencer marketing is it takes a lot of leg work to implement and it is often not truly scalable. It's also kind of interesting to see what's going on on TikTok, because definitely, you know, that that cut meta spend is shifting to TikTok. But TikTok is also hard to measure for the same reasons that it's hard to measure meta, right? Because of platform changes and challenges. And for the most part, because it's hard to measure the return on ad spend, on TikTok, it tends to be a top of funnel channel. Well, I can tell you that in a recession the money for top of funnel marketing is going to dry up very quickly.

[00:40:37] And so you're gonna be focused on those channels that can drive real performance and ROAS because you just don't have enough funding to, to, to, to spend on those top channels. So it'll be really interesting to see, over the next six months how advertising dollars shift around. I usually feel pretty comfortable giving my predictions for retail sales and e-commerce sales, but honestly, at this point, just hand me an ball. I have 

[00:41:01] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's where 

[00:41:02] Polly Wong: I'm gonna continue to be I'm gonna continue to cross my fingers and my toes and hope that at least for our clients, that affluent consumers are still spending 

[00:41:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And so, so on what you just said, right around top of funnel and those, is there an argument to be made that if you're going to spend on influencers or TikTok, that you're, you might wanna save that for when you have a new product launch versus just trying to drive sales of an existing product? 

[00:41:27] Polly Wong: Absolutely. It's not something 

[00:41:29] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Because you scale it right 

[00:41:31] Polly Wong: you're gonna turn it on. You can't, you're gonna, you're gonna turn it on maybe three or four times. You know, in the world of retail, we think about five seasons winter. Spring, summer, fall, and holiday. And so you're really going to lean in just a few weeks of each season into your influencer marketing and that spend and really, lean into your peak sales curve to drive those new product sales and to get that reach.

[00:41:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. If that makes sense. That makes complete sense. So, so last question for you Polly, and if, someone were to come and ask you right now, what's your top recommendation when you think about growth strategies for a DTC brand, what would you tell 'em?

[00:42:07] Polly Wong: Considering the economic uncertainty, the headwinds and the rising costs across the entire p and l, I would say that my top two recommendations are to one, lean into crm. Make sure that you're activating all five channels targeting your existing customer base, and then two, Because you're targeting your existing customers, continue to focus on your product category expansion, you know, what is your range of product across categories and price points.

[00:42:37] Consumers may start spending down they may be more value focused than ever. So, you know, what is your good, better, best merchandise strategy, right? Not only are you adding simple things like more color skews to your long sleeve t-shirt, but you know, is there a good, better, best strategy for your product?

[00:42:53] Motorcycle clients we've have worked with have done this extremely well. There's a good, better, best motorcycle helmet and the best one has got bluetooth and all kinds of fun things in it. And in, in addition to keeping your, your, your head safe. So definitely I think, leaning into your customer file is a tremendous, profitable asset.

[00:43:11] And then just giving existing customers more to buy. I do think there's plenty of time to lean into new customer acquisi. You know, as we begin to see some of the, the economic uncertainty clear up, hopefully by spring, I actually am quite confident that I do think things will level out and I think we'll be back sailing along by spring of 2023 is, is my hope.

[00:43:33] So fingers crossed. 

[00:43:34] Ricardo Belmar: I think you maybe, may be right about that. And it kind of says that if I kind of read into, the two areas you highlighted for a lot of DTC brands, there's probably some new hires they need to look for to help them with those strategies, particularly around merchandising those new products.

[00:43:47] Products like you talked about earlier.

[00:43:49] Polly Wong: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you have to, and also to pay attention to the competition. You know, it's amazing to me. I think brands do tend to be inwardly focused and. You know, maybe now people will have the time and to kind of step back and say, how does my assortment look compared to my competitors?

[00:44:06] What are my price points? What are my size ranges? What are my number of colors? You know what is my returns policy? You know, how do I stand up against the competition? Everybody's gonna have to just be a little bit smarter. 

[00:44:16] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's another great point. I mean, I, even on for traditional retailers, I, I can't count how many times in the past I've been in, in a room with retailers and asked them, Well, when was the last time you walked one of your competitors' stores to see what they were doing? you know, I, I, I don't know sometimes whether I wanted to laugh or cry at the fact that they were just crickets in the room and nobody responded when I asked that question.

[00:44:38] so there's definitely some truth to that.

[00:44:40] Polly Wong: Absolutely. 

[00:44:43] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you So 

[00:44:44] discuss. I'm probably gonna go down as one of the, our, our most commented episodes with so much in good information and, and advice and I think really unique details that you've helped surface here for, for DTC brands as they grow into, I would call becoming a, full channel retailer in a sense.

[00:45:03] and really didn't, know, cover a lot of ground around making old media, new media, like we started to talk about earlier.

[00:45:09] Polly Wong: Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been fun this afternoon to connect with you and I, I hope you both have a, a lovely fall season.

[00:45:16] Casey Golden: Definitely. For our listeners who have been furiously taking notes during this episode, what's the best reach way for them to reach out to you or follow your company?

[00:45:26] Polly Wong: Yeah, obviously we're on the social channels, but if you wanna reach out through the contact us page at Belardi Wong, if you would like to talk to me directly or have any questions or comments for me directly, I know that they'll, they'll make their way to me and I'm always happy to chat and connect.

[00:45:39] Casey Golden: Great.

[00:45:40] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you again, Polly, for joining us. We hope to have you back soon.

[00:45:43] Polly Wong: Thank you so much. Have a great one.

[00:45:45] Casey Golden: You too. That's a wrap, Ricardo.

[00:45:48] Show Closing

[00:45:48] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden. 

[00:46:18] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:46:35] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:46:36] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter until next time, this is the retail razor show. 

In honor of the NRF Big Show we’re kicking off a special podcast cross-over series, #NRFLive, with Jeff Roster’s show This Week In Innovation. This episode is a very special, intimately authentic conversation between four top retail influencers, recorded live, and in-person during the NRF show.

Jeff and host, Ricardo Belmar, join retail legends, Vicki Cantrell, CEO of Vendors in Partnership, LLC, and Ron Thurston, author of Retail Pride and host of the Retail in America podcast and tour. Together our four retail friends chat about the VIP Awards ceremony, RetailROI’s Super Saturday event, what they expect to see during NRF, the impact of innovation in retail, & the latest retail tech buzzwords. Plus, they reach an important conclusion about why retail is, after all, all about the people.

Listen, or watch on YouTube, and join our four friends for the kind of discussion that can only happen when you’re recording live, and in-person in a setting like the NRF Big Show!

News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show was a finalist for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during the NRF Big Show 2023!

News alert #2! We’ve moved up to #18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list - please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! Leave us a review & be mentioned in future episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E10a #NRFLive SPECIAL - #TRI Friends Fireside Chat

[00:00:00] Show Intro

[00:00:00] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to a special season two episode 10 of the Retail Razor Show. This is the first of a multi-part series recorded live and in person at the N R F 2023 show from January 13th to 18th, otherwise known as N R F Week. And I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:37] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome, retail Razor Show listeners, retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. And for this special bonus, welcome N R F fans to our hot take, hashtag N R F Live mini series.

[00:00:59] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey, [00:01:00] this is an incredible treat for listeners and viewers. Just like our last episode, our top 10 trends and predictions for 2023, the recordings in this miniseries all happen live and in person. While you know about 35,000 or so of our closest retail friends swarmed New York City,

[00:01:16] Casey Golden: I just loved recording face-to-face when we're just not, these two little squares from the shoulders up on a Zoom screen.

[00:01:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So let's set the stage here for this series. Lot lot's happening. Cuz not only is this a special live and in-person recording series, but it's also a podcast crossover event.

[00:01:35] Casey Golden: Wait really?

[00:01:37] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, really we are crossing over with our fellow Retail Avenger, Jeff Roster and his This Week in Innovation podcast.

[00:01:45] Here's what'll happen. So this episode kicks off our hashtag N R F Live series with what may be my absolute favorite podcast recording of our entire run so far.

[00:01:55] Casey Golden: all time fave like that's saying a lot. I mean, I [00:02:00] adore Jeff, but this is an all time fave.

[00:02:03] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, yes. Really of, of, of all time. Well, at least until the next one, but no

[00:02:10] Casey Golden: All right. Well, with that kind of buildup you'll have to explain a little more so, spill.

[00:02:15] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. Okay. So late last year Jeff and I were talking about our N R F plans, comparing how many places we, we overlapped and realized it would be a great opportunity to do a series of interviews of super interesting people at N R F. Friends we don't often see in person and just talk trends. Talk about what's hot at the show, what's coming next in retail.

[00:02:37] So the crossover was born. And we thought, we'll, we'll jointly host these interviews and then we'll just release them all across both the Retail Razor Show and This Week in Innovation

[00:02:45] Casey Golden: Very cool. I'm digging this

[00:02:48] Ricardo Belmar: But wait, there's more

[00:02:50] Casey Golden: in your best announcement voice

[00:02:52] Ricardo Belmar: I'm trying to build up some suspense here

[00:02:54] Casey Golden: We're already on the edge of our seat. 

[00:02:56] Ricardo Belmar: So, so not only is this our first crossover series, but [00:03:00] it's also our first sponsored podcast.

[00:03:03] Casey Golden: Ah, look at our podcast. It's adulting

[00:03:06] Ricardo Belmar: exactly, exactly. We didn't realize just how popular we we've become. So while Jeff and I were making plans around who we tried to interview during N R F, there was one important thing we realized. We actually need a really solid place to sit down and record during N R F, because let's face it, the Javit Center isn't the most conducive to podcast recording

[00:03:26] Casey Golden: It's not the most conducive for much. So I mean, I don't think we could do this while sitting in front of Starbucks either.

[00:03:34] Ricardo Belmar: Right. E Exactly, exactly. But fortunately for us, our, our good friends of the show and avid podcast supporters at Avanade made us a really nice offer to use some space in their lounge area on the fourth floor, just above the expo hall. So fans of our show may have seen a preview photo of this setup on LinkedIn during N R F as we posted a few behind the scenes pics courtesy of the, the marketing team at Avanade

[00:03:56] Casey Golden: Oh, big shout out to the marketing team at Avanade [00:04:00] for their support and for providing such an amazing space. I wish I could have been there for all of these.

[00:04:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, we, we definitely missed you for those. And, and for this episode's recording, we were also fortunate to take advantage of another great spot in one of the conference rooms at the Microsoft Times Square office. Right after this year's retail ROI Super Saturday event had concluded right at the same location.

[00:04:22] So extra fortunate. We happened to run into two very special friends of the show who've been on before. They agreed to sit down with Jeff and me to have an open conversation about our first two days at N r. About what we expected to find, what we might uncover during the show. And to be fair, Jeff and I pitched this as a quick 15 minute recording to them to convince them to do it.

[00:04:42] And of course that turned into a nearly 50 minutes session because guess what happens when you have four retail friends get together? I haven't seen each other in person in so long.

[00:04:51] Casey Golden: Yeah, we just don't stop. I'm thinking it would be very much like a friends' TV show reunion episode. You just [00:05:00] keep going and going because there is just so much happening in the industry right now

[00:05:05] Ricardo Belmar: You, you said it. You said it. So, so we'll be hearing our, our conversation this episode with none other than retail legend, Vicki Cantrell currently c e o at vendors in partnership and organizer of the V I P awards event during N R F plus, Ron Thurston, author of the bestselling book, Retail Pride and Host of the Retail in America Podcast and tour.

[00:05:25] And of course, to top it all off, since we're all RETHINK Retail, top retail influencers for 2023 just announced at the N R F show.

[00:05:34] Casey Golden: Absolutely incredible and I'm so honored to be on the list this year and included, a big congrats all around to everyone for making the cut and sharing their perspective.

[00:05:47] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and fun fact, this might even surprise some listeners and viewers, but Ron and I met in person for the first time at this n r F show.

[00:05:56] You know, absolute, it's a like a pandemic story, right? I mean, as after all [00:06:00] these years that we've known each other. But this was the first time we actually met face to face in person.

[00:06:06] Casey Golden: Wow. I didn't realize that. I actually met Ron during the pandemic in Dominican Republic.

[00:06:12] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. That's right.

[00:06:15] Casey Golden: It's just, that is just an amazing little fun fact. You know, we forget how, how often we work with people that we've actually never been i r l with. 

[00:06:28] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. And you, and you'll hear us talk about that in the recording too, cuz we all had stories that had happened to us just in those first couple of days.

[00:06:35] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean how could we build up this episode any more than we already have? So let's get to it and not keep everyone waiting.

[00:06:44] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, I totally agree.

[00:06:47] Casey Golden: Ah, I wanna point out one more thing.

[00:06:50] Ricardo Belmar: Y you didn't just do that, did you?

[00:06:52] Casey Golden: I did. But first I wanna point out that you've said multiple viewer multiple times now. And I [00:07:00] know we told our listeners they could see us on video and episode one of the season, but we've had some tech technical issues plaguing us all season long. . This is actually the first one we've released this season with video.

[00:07:16] Ricardo Belmar: Good point. Good catch. Casey. Yes, yes. We actually do have video this time. And honestly we have our, our great friends at Rethink Retail. To thank for that Gabriela Bock, one of the producers at Rethink was gracious enough to record our conversation on video. And while what, if you're watching the video, you have to pay attention to just how small a conference room that was.

[00:07:38] I don't know how she managed to stay with us for, for almost the entire time. Carefully walking around the room with video gear and it, it was just an amazing effort. You know, we, we had also told her it was gonna be 15 minutes and she thought, oh great. This is, this will be fun to do and sure enough turns into 50.

[00:07:55] So, you know what, what an amazing effort and thanks so much to, to Gabriella and RETHINK for, for doing that for us.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Casey Golden: Well talk about commitment and just incredible continued support. And if you're a careful viewer, you'll also catch another familiar rethink retail face in the background, taking photos. I won't give away who it is yet, but when we come back, we'll let you in on the scoop.

[00:08:17] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, well, a, after this incredibly long intro that we've managed now, maybe our longest yet let's dive in and listen to what Jeff, Vicki, Ron, and myself had to say about the v i p awards, Retail ROI, N R F in general, and just the state of retail today and, and what we expect to, to happen this year.

[00:08:35] And, and you'll see why this is quickly my, my favorite podcast we've ever done.

[00:08:39] Casey Golden: Amazing.

[00:08:39]

[00:08:44] #NRFLive - TRI Friends Fireside Chat

[00:08:44] Ricardo Belmar: Hey everybody. I'm here with Jeff Roster and co-host of this weekend innovation, and you guessed it. This is part of our crossover series between our two podcasts. How you doing, Jeff?

[00:08:55] Jeff Roster: I am doing fantastic. Ricardo, how about yourself

[00:08:58] Ricardo Belmar: I'm doing wonderful. [00:09:00] And part of that I would say is true for you too because we are live and in person at the N R F show, which we haven't been in quite some time.

[00:09:08] three years. 

[00:09:09] Jeff Roster: Well, actually I was here. I was here last

[00:09:12] Ricardo Belmar: you get bonus points for last year. You get bonus points for last

[00:09:16] Jeff Roster: year, okay. The re the Startup community came strong last year

[00:09:18] Ricardo Belmar: That's true. That's very true. You can, we'll, we'll leave that one there and then on that one there. And we are joined by two incredibly wonderful people in the retail industry.

[00:09:28] Vicki Cantrell, how you doing? Vicki? And Ron Thurston.

[00:09:33] Ron Thurston: Hi everyone. Happy to be here.

[00:09:35] Ricardo Belmar: So we thought we would just kind of kick things off by talking a little bit about the first couple of events that have started N r F week this year starting with Vicki, with your event. Last night as of when we were recording this, the vendors in partnership awards ceremony.

[00:09:49] Why don't you give us a, a quick recap of some of the highlights.

[00:09:52] Vicki Cantrell: Oh, I'd love to. It was really an amazing night. Um, we, uh, I started this thing three years ago [00:10:00] and last night I think we kind of crossed a threshold because the message that I have dreamed about is really taking hold.

[00:10:07] And it's about how we do business, not who does business with who. And really about problem solving, not solution selling, and. The things that really resonated with me last night and the things that people come up and say to me have to do with the fact that I say that, you know, people buy from people, they don't buy from companies.

[00:10:30] Um, the gratitude that people had when they had to kind of put together their nominations and they realize. They took a breath and said how far they've come and they were able to recognize their teams. These are all the relationship aspects, um, that flowed through the night. Aside from that, it was a beautiful night, beautiful venue.

[00:10:51] So much love in the room. We sold out. 

[00:10:54] Jeff Roster: congratulations. 

[00:10:55] Thank you.

[00:10:56] Ricardo Belmar: a big achievement. Yeah.

[00:10:57] Jeff Roster: I kind of liked it when I could move around a little bit. 

[00:10:59] Vicki Cantrell: I know [00:11:00] you do.

[00:11:00] Jeff Roster: so you know,

[00:11:02] Ron Thurston: there were people here today are

[00:11:03] Jeff Roster: quite as easy moving around this, time,

[00:11:07] Vicki Cantrell: but uh, yeah, so, uh, we're really thrilled with the evening and, uh, a lot of great buzz and I just believe, I always thought I was pushing a rock uphill to take away this, this aspect of buyer, seller.

[00:11:21] Yeah. But you know, it's that rock is moving. And so I'm thrilled.

[00:11:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I, I, I, I like the way you put it because I really feel like your event, uh, so nicely demonstrate that it is a relationship.

[00:11:35] It's not just buyer seller. Right. Right. It's a partnership between what we're all collectively trying to 

[00:11:40] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. Yeah. Everybody in the room is equals and that's what makes this the most special party. And, and people are not tired. You know, they're, this is their celebration. This is the celebration for the people that actually run this show and, uh, are gonna go through a grueling four [00:12:00] or five days that's gonna make or break their year.

[00:12:03] Right. And why not. Let's celebrate for what they bring to the industry and what they allow us all to do.

[00:12:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. I'm well said. Well said. Ron, what's your impression so far at like, I, I guess I would call this day two of nrf,

[00:12:18] Jeff Roster: It's day two for us. I don't know about anybody

[00:12:20] Vicki Cantrell: for sure.

[00:12:21] Ron Thurston: a good one

[00:12:21] Ricardo Belmar: for everybody, but for us,

[00:12:22] Ron Thurston: you know, I had the, I had the, I've known Vicki for I think 15 years, so we go way back Tor Tory Birch years.

[00:12:30] Um, and Vicky was generous enough last year to invite me to give out an award to retailer's favorite and this year I was nominated. So it was great to just be there and to be, even though I'm not a vendor, I feel like I know so many of the vendors. I've been a retailer, I have so many friends in the room.

[00:12:48] It's just a joy. It's a joy to be there. And, and you're right, I think it's early. Everyone dresses up. Yes. You know, by Tuesday I have this feeling, you know, we'll, I'll be wearing jeans and

[00:12:58] Vicki Cantrell: Right. It's sneakers. [00:13:00] Hundred

[00:13:00] Ron Thurston: don't care anymore. But, um, it's a beautiful. Beautiful. 

[00:13:05] Vicki Cantrell: my feet are already cooked, but, and I'm only on day one and this is a, this I have not factored in, so I, I gotta,

[00:13:12] Ricardo Belmar: We're, we're all still learning

[00:13:13] Jeff Roster: No sensible shoes then,

[00:13:15] huh?

[00:13:15] Vicki Cantrell: I have some

[00:13:18] Ricardo Belmar: you, you can't get enough sensible shoes, I

[00:13:20] Vicki Cantrell: That's true. 

[00:13:20] Ricardo Belmar: Takeaway I have from that Yeah. No. No matter how much you try. So we're also all here on day two at one of my other favorite events of the week. RetailROI's Super Saturday. Uh, I was excited to be able to hosted this event at the Microsoft office in Times Square.

[00:13:37] Um, Jeff, I think you wanna, sh you had some stats you'd like to share maybe on how we did

[00:13:42] Jeff Roster: Well,

[00:13:43] very well.

[00:13:46] Ricardo Belmar: that's,

[00:13:46] Jeff Roster: that's analyst speak for, Hmm. I think we were well over $320,000. It's, it was the,

[00:13:52] Vicki Cantrell: the

[00:13:53] closer to three 

[00:13:54] Jeff Roster: Three 50. It was the second biggest year revenue wise. Um, the other [00:14:00] observations, uh, crazy energy. So I would agree with, um, you know, as, as, as somebody that was at, uh, Vicki's event, the energy was off the charts. That was the big speculation, um, that I was testing. You know, the, in the, the run up to N RF series I was doing is, what do you expect?

[00:14:14] You know, and we were talking about make sure you have, you know, masks and, and all this and be sensitive to who people, you know, whatever. And that's, that's all that advice is all still. But, uh, I think, I think people are ready to rock and roll and the energy's off

[00:14:27] Ricardo Belmar: The energy's there, right.

[00:14:28] Jeff Roster: they're definitely wanna be sensitive if people are still have, have whatever issues, but, uh, solid energy.

[00:14:33] We kind of got a sense of that. Maybe Wednesday, Thursday you could just start, I could start seeing the emails confirmed for, uh, v I p and definitely, definitely today for sure. This is day two and tons of energy. People wanna, you know, re reconnect. Um, I dunno about you guys, but, um, I've bumped into at least 10 people that I've known virtually

[00:14:58] Right. For years now, who I [00:15:00] believe I have a legitimate relationship and I'm like,

[00:15:04] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, no, that, that's

[00:15:05] Vicki Cantrell: that's so true.

[00:15:06] Ricardo Belmar: so, right Ron, Ron and I have now, I don't know, known each other I,

[00:15:11] Ron Thurston: couple years.

[00:15:12] Couple years now. Yeah.

[00:15:13] Ricardo Belmar: we, this was the first day we finally got to meet in person.

[00:15:15] Ron Thurston: true. It's really true. 

[00:15:17] Vicki Cantrell: So I'm shocked because as, as well as Zoom does things, people look different in person,

[00:15:25] And like somebody walked in who I've had probably 15 zooms with and choose about a foot taller than I expected. She walked in and I thought, and so you don't recognize, you know, it's, it's really something. There's gonna be a lot of that this, this

[00:15:40] Ron Thurston: there will be

[00:15:41] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah.

[00:15:42] Ricardo Belmar: no, no doubt. No doubt.

[00:15:45] So what's

[00:15:47] everyone thinking now that we've, we've kind of had a taste of the energy after a couple of events. The, the full-blown show starts tomorrow. So what is everyone thinking? The vibe is gonna be on the show floor.

[00:15:59] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.[00:16:00]

[00:16:01] Vicki Cantrell: I would say that, um, because of this energy and, and what I'm hearing just in a few conversations of today and yesterday is, uh, and people are actually saying that, you know, the pandemic, so we're ready to get back out there.

[00:16:16] They're using this kind of language and this is solution providers, and for them that means get back out there. I wanna go to events, I wanna pick and choose different types of events. I. You know, more involved in different types of things. And today we heard about two different vendors who are now heavily involved and didn't know anything about roi.

[00:16:38] So when you, when you think about a little bit, right? You said that, oh yes, but, but you know, you just, because they are now. Wanting to be involved in new things, new ways, get back out there. I would say the watch phrase is get back out there and that's what we're gonna see on the floor that people are gonna be looking to [00:17:00] like, am I up to date on technology?

[00:17:02] Let me stop at all these booths to really feel like I'm connected again. Yeah, that's what I think. 

[00:17:08] Ron Thurston: And I think because there's been so much conversation about all the new ideas and all the new technology, yeah.

[00:17:14] You actually need to touch and feel it. Yeah. Similar to shopping in a retail store, I think I'm excited to go down, you know, innovation. Lane and what are all these brands bringing? What are, what's happening? What are some big new ideas? Yeah, and you know, a lot of retailers, and I'm sure we'll speak about the Rethink retail bash coming up, but the minute I posted of, you know, hey, rethink retail is having this, the amount of responses that I received of like, I'd love to go, I'd love to go.

[00:17:41] Yes. The willingness and desire to reconnect is powerful.

[00:17:46] Ricardo Belmar: Powerful, yeah. Yeah, that's

[00:17:47] right. That's right. So, well since you brought up the, the rethink retail that we're, I think we're all going to be at, uh, Monday night. What, what other, so day one, official day one, I'll call it right. For NRF Sunday [00:18:00] tomorrow.

[00:18:00] That's on day two. Um, anything else anyone is excited to be going to, of the remaining

[00:18:07] Vicki Cantrell: I'm sorry, but I can't not talk about rock and roll retail. I, I mean Yep.

[00:18:14] Ricardo Belmar: I'm with you on that one.

[00:18:15] Vicki Cantrell: That's, that's the other thing where retailers are so embedded in different fun areas of life. Yeah. Okay. Yes. They do charity work.

[00:18:24] They go on trips. Mm-hmm. , they play music. They make a band, they

[00:18:29] Ron Thurston: and it

[00:18:30] Ricardo Belmar: comes together

[00:18:30] Vicki Cantrell: together here, and it all comes together here.

[00:18:32] Ron Thurston: Wow. So fun.

[00:18:34] Ricardo Belmar: for that one too. That's another, another Monday, late evening. Oh my god. Activity.

[00:18:39] Vicki Cantrell: Yes. And then of course the Retail Retailer Insiders

[00:18:43] Ron Thurston: was just gonna say that one too. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be my first year attending that.

[00:18:47] It'll be fun. You ready? Get ready. That's, that's all 9:00 PM on a Sunday night. A lot of

[00:18:51] Jeff Roster: tie at that one. That's a little more raucous for sure. Um, very good. Um, lot of people, um, you know, so it's, the [00:19:00] energy is clearly here.

[00:19:01] There's no doubt about it. The um, As ugly and hideous as Covid was, it clearly was a stimulant to, to innovation. I mean, we tracked that on this week. I think you did it on retail razor too. The, the, you know, I mean the number of BOPIS uh, setups were just off the charts, right? We now realize low code's, a real unique strategic advantage, uh, be able to move faster, more nimbler.

[00:19:20] And so I think what we're gonna see is. I don't wanna say an explosion of innovation, cuz I would argue, I mean I've been tracking it for 20 years. It's, it's, I, I, I don't think things just explode, but they accelerate and the ability to innovate. And the fact that startups three or four or five years ago really weren't even, I mean, Vicky, when you were there, I mean you were just starting to bring the startups in.

[00:19:42] They were always there. They were. I mean, I live in Silicon Valley. We've been doing startups really since Hewlett and Packard got together in 1938. So we're not new to startup. , but all of a sudden the industry has said, this is this giant opportunity to, to um, showcase this in this innovation has always been [00:20:00] going on.

[00:20:00] That's why, you know, the big companies have, are, have been, uh, making acquisitions, but now we're, we're featuring these people and this is the, I mean, the heart of of businesses. These and some young entrepreneurs, a lot, not so young entrepreneurs, but that energy and they're being featured now and it's just.

[00:20:19] And it's just gonna be, I think it's gonna be a celebration of innovation, is maybe the way I'm gonna 

[00:20:24] Vicki Cantrell: it, Jeff, you know, I also wanna say something about innovation. That that overused word. Okay. And because when you say innovation, everybody thinks tech innovation. Mm-hmm. . Okay. But what the last few years have shown us is that innovation is across the board, innovation on how you speak to each other, innovation on how you.

[00:20:45] teams work together. Innovation on how you approach something. By the way, you wouldn't, low-code wouldn't have such a, a presence if there was an innovation in how you do things, not just the tech. [00:21:00] And so people have really changed how they do business and that requires innovation of thought and innovation of mm-hmm.

[00:21:10] how you use your people.

[00:21:11] Ron Thurston: and Agreed.

[00:21:12] Vicki Cantrell: You know, because retailers have to be like super agile.

[00:21:16] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And, and it's only as effective as the adoption normally, which has to happen in a store.

[00:21:23] Vicki Cantrell: Oh boy. Isn't that the truth? 

[00:21:24] Ron Thurston: That's the truth.

[00:21:25] Vicki Cantrell: That's it, 

[00:21:26] Ron Thurston: there's so much 

[00:21:27] new, there's a lot of, I'll say this, there's a lot of people who develop technology that have never worked in retail. And so there's Yes. I know it's a bold statement, you know, just gonna say it, know, 

[00:21:40] Jeff Roster: We've got story. We got a whole podcast where, where we could talk, tell stories. Central office. No, it's not a central office. It's called a store. Please change that on your slide deck. I catch a lot of that. And you still see it at this store

[00:21:53] Ron Thurston: You do. I mean, it's the 50% want to quit their job working in retail stat. I

[00:21:58] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, right. Yeah.

[00:21:59] Ron Thurston: it's those, [00:22:00] and so I think there's this whole concept again of what does the store need.

[00:22:05] Ask the store. Right, right. Before you go and develop technology. Right. And there are, um, there's a solution that will be in the innovation aisle this year called Reflex, and they're doing on demand staffing. Yes. And so this is an actual need that is. In integral to the success of our industry. Yeah. To say that we need on-demand gig economy, style retail workforce, right?

[00:22:29] Because the workforce is demanding it. They're demanding flexibility. So here's someone that's innovating this idea. Yes. And coming up with new technology. So don't just create something because you think it's a good idea. ask the people who need this technology and how they'll use it. So why I'm such a big Yoobic fan who were, you know, also nominated last night.

[00:22:50] Yeah. They, they really listen to what the stores need. Yep. Stores and restaurants need, and it's, that's why the adoption's so high.

[00:22:59] Jeff Roster: I'll [00:23:00] tell you a little secret. Um, there's a bunch of CIOs that the first question they ask a tech vendor is, tell me what you think of my store? 

[00:23:07] Ron Thurston: That's a great question. 

[00:23:08] Vicki Cantrell: Yes. 

[00:23:08] Jeff Roster: want, you want to know

[00:23:09] Ron Thurston: who

[00:23:09] Jeff Roster: many vendors could wash out right up there? 

[00:23:11] Vicki Cantrell: Yep. 

[00:23:11] Jeff Roster: A

[00:23:11] lot. A lot.. 

[00:23:12] Ricardo Belmar: So these people 

[00:23:13] Vicki Cantrell: have so basic,

[00:23:14] hundreds, 

[00:23:14] Jeff Roster: if not thousands of dollars to maybe fly travel, prepare for a meeting, and they did not go to the physical store 

[00:23:22] Vicki Cantrell: mm-hmm.

[00:23:22] Jeff Roster: and make some observations.

[00:23:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:23:24] Jeff Roster: and, and it's just like, you know, it's just like a crocodile, just ready to pounce cuz the, you know, the cio Just first question, tell me what you think and, and it's not a trick question. No, I was in your store. It seemed busy, it seemed cluttered, it seemed really good. I liked the lighting. I did, I, it, it's easy,

[00:23:41] Ron Thurston: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Jeff Roster: you got to, you're telling me you're gonna try to do and you don't know their business and that's the point you're making and that's valuable 

[00:23:48] Ron Thurston: really valuable. I, I asked that question often of management candidates, you know, and my office was right here in Times Square. There were six intermix stores in the city. Tell me the story you're in. Yeah. And [00:24:00] the the question could end. Yeah. You know, very quickly. Yeah. And so you're right.

[00:24:04] Yeah. It's like, do your homework, learn what's necessary, learn what's important, and then help. Right. You know, help us be better because of it.

[00:24:14] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think that question is so powerful as to your point, RO I've used that myself being on the vendor side in a meeting with a group of retail executives, or I've asked them, well, More from a wanting to learn perspective. I said, well, tell me about your store. Tell me the last time you were in a store and what you thought were the biggest challenges.

[00:24:33] And I was always surprised. Half the time I asked that question, I couldn't get an answer because I was, had a room full of people who couldn't remember the last time they had walked to their own stores. So I think that's one, to me, it was one of the most simplest basic things that everybody in the industry can do is just, you know, Go visit the store.

[00:24:50] Yes.

[00:24:51] See what's going on. Ask the people that are there,

[00:24:53] what's 

[00:24:54] Vicki Cantrell: wrong. So simple. Right.

[00:24:55] So simple. so simple. 

[00:24:56] Ron Thurston: simple. You know,

[00:24:57] Ricardo Belmar: know? Well, we, we heard some examples today, right?

[00:24:59] Vicki Cantrell: [00:25:00] Right. Sharon Sessions from From

[00:25:01] Ricardo Belmar: Sharon. Yeah, true. From the Undercover, undercover 

[00:25:04] Vicki Cantrell: Boss

[00:25:04] Get to the source. It's that simple. , 

[00:25:08] Ron Thurston: and

[00:25:08] maybe it's not in New York City, you know, go, you know, as I have traveled across the country this year, I, I would be confident to say a lot of those stores in the, the heartland of this country have never been visited by an executive can guarantee it.

[00:25:24] Yes. And so maybe get out of la, New York. Right. And go visits the flagship store, the low volume. Yeah. Not just flag low volume, you know. 

[00:25:34] And look for those opportunities Yeah. That are available just by asking questions. 

[00:25:40] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:25:40] Vicki Cantrell: Yep.

[00:25:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think there'll be a lot of those questions hopefully be asked over the next few.

[00:25:45] days.

[00:25:45] Ron Thurston: Yeah,

[00:25:46] so too.

[00:25:47] Jeff Roster: So what do you think the big buzzwords for the show are gonna be? 

[00:25:51] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, that's a great question, Jeff.

[00:25:53] You know, every nrf I I come to, it seems in recent years though, always start with, I'm sure this is the year every vendor's gonna [00:26:00] talk about ai. Mm-hmm. I, I still kind of chuckle a little bit. I forget which year it was, when it seemed like every time I turn around the expo floor, there was a booth with a robot in it and then, and now I want to kind of walk through and say, where did all the robots go? Yeah.

[00:26:11] Jeff Roster: they're working, they're in the stores. Apparently working. I guess maybe,

[00:26:14] Ricardo Belmar: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I, I'm actually kind of interested to see what the buzzy words are going to be this time. You know, we we're kind of coming out of a year where the first half of the year, the big buzz was all about Metaverse.

[00:26:27] Mm-hmm. . I don't, I don't expect that to be the one. I think there'll be some, I mean, I, I still expect to see some web three discussion maybe.

[00:26:34] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:34] Ricardo Belmar: I think there's definitely gonna be a lot of, 

[00:26:36] maybe new applications. I'll, I'll put it that way, to ai you know, certainly things talking about pricing, I think that's a.

[00:26:44] Vicki Cantrell: seems to be a lot of conversation around pricing.

[00:26:46] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:48] Ricardo Belmar: I expect to hear a lot about returns management. Yeah. Just given where we're at, you know, that being a, a solution

[00:26:54] Jeff Roster: I agree a hundred percent. 

[00:26:56] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:26:57] Jeff Roster: just because it's so [00:27:00] unsexy. but it's, you know, returns are where profits go to die.

[00:27:05] And yet, if we're gonna talk about being sustainable, I mean the, probably the least sustainable process on the planet is returns.

[00:27:11] Ron Thurston: Agreed. 

[00:27:11] Ricardo Belmar: Right, 

[00:27:11] Jeff Roster: Just

[00:27:12] you ship you ship thing 8,000 miles or however you process it, you got it out. and it's coming back and it's coming back in a far be worse condition than it left.

[00:27:21] And it is a mess. And you're touching it again and every time you touch, you're hanging another dollar on that thing. Yeah. So if we can figure out how, and, and there were some great conversations today, like, you know, maybe we need to deselect some customers and I, you know, if we're gonna be serious about being sustainable.

[00:27:37] Yeah. Why are you returning so much? Is it an issue with sizing? Which it clearly is. technology. Uh, solutions. They're, they're starting to become some, you know, AI models and, and 3D models and all that stuff. I mean, there's a lot of things that we can look at, but if somehow we can say, how do we, you know, how do we not return 50% or 60% of stuff?

[00:27:57] That's a huge 

[00:27:59] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's A huge one. [00:28:00] Yeah. 

[00:28:00] Jeff Roster: Um, so I love that. So, re returns, I, I'm, How might debate with you a little bit on Metaverse. We'll have to settle up afterwards, but I'm much more of a fan of immersive commerce, which our friend Michael Zakour has, has 

[00:28:11] Vicki Cantrell: that. Yeah. So we

[00:28:12] Jeff Roster: can, we can talk about, uh, we can talk about augmented reality and not talk about, you know, getting

[00:28:17] Ricardo Belmar: virtual

[00:28:18] Jeff Roster: you know, 

[00:28:18] Ricardo Belmar: part. Well, I'll, I'll tell you. I, I will. Concede one point on, on 

[00:28:23] Jeff Roster: one 

[00:28:23] I'm getting one, 

[00:28:24] Ricardo Belmar: oh, you'll get one today. . Ask me again at the end, at the end 

[00:28:27] Jeff Roster: I will 

[00:28:27] Ricardo Belmar: You'll, I know you will, I know you'll keep, you'll hold me to that

[00:28:30] I, I would say the, the one, because I know there are sessions about this, so that, that's why I'm gonna bring it up. And I've already talked to some folks about it and I know I see it with our customers, with the partners I work with. One really strong use case for Metaverse is digital. Um, especially with, uh, the consumer goods brands that we work with there, there's lots and lots of interest in that because you can just have, if you're building the digital twin, right, you have your entire operations modeled that you can play around with.

[00:28:58] Come up with new operations, [00:29:00] new products, without ever having to touch anything physical and incur the cost for that. And you'll know upfront, now I built it in that digital twin. Now I know what the outcome's gonna be before I build version So I think.

[00:29:10] Ron Thurston: that's

[00:29:11] Ricardo Belmar: In my mind the most valid use case today,

[00:29:14] today.

[00:29:15] Cuz I know you're looking at me, Jeff, and, and you're thinking there's more to it than that.

[00:29:18] Jeff Roster: Oh, I'm waiting. I'm,

[00:29:18] Ricardo Belmar: I know, I know. You're, you're finding, I know you're waiting the pounce on me for that one, but I'm gonna say that's today's use case for metaverse. All the other ones I think, I don't know if it's this year.

[00:29:28] I think they'll come. I'll, I'll agree with you on that one. It it's coming, but I don't know that it's, this year.

[00:29:32] Vicki Cantrell: This has, this is in that same category of how much you have to pay attention. You have to be paying attention. But c, come where we are economically and where we are, it's going to be, I'm going to pay attention and I'm, but I'm also understand that no bright, shiny objects.

[00:29:51] Right. Okay. And that's where it is still, you know, it's still that,

[00:29:55] Ricardo Belmar: but you get some of the

[00:29:56] core core pieces.

[00:29:57] I think that to me is the, the key for some of these. And that's why I [00:30:00] keep bringing up the digital twin

[00:30:01] Vicki Cantrell: Well, just like ai, 

[00:30:02] the same core pieces,

[00:30:02] you need 

[00:30:03] Ricardo Belmar: pieces, right? 

[00:30:04] Vicki Cantrell: You 

[00:30:04] Ricardo Belmar: need that

[00:30:04] fundamental

[00:30:05] Jeff Roster: And that's why 

[00:30:06] Ricardo Belmar: so you can build on, that's 

[00:30:07] Jeff Roster: why immersive commerce is a superior word to Metaverse cuz you can get those pieces and you can kind of loop it. Cuz we, as analysts, we have to have something to hang that framework on. Cause we gotta study, we gotta survey it, we gotta forecast it.

[00:30:19] You ain't forecasting Metaverse? Cause that's nonsense. 

[00:30:21] Vicki Cantrell: Right? Right. 

[00:30:22] Jeff Roster: Right? Um,

[00:30:22] oh, it's, uh, $22 trillion. Okay. I picked what, it's ridiculous. What's that based on? But immersive commerce, you can break out ai, well you can break out AI's foundation, you can break out virtual reality, augmented reality, all these components.

[00:30:34] And now you can build

[00:30:35] a, you can build a deal. And I think that's probably a far better way for us to talk about it. And there's absolutely zero energy, pro or con around that 

[00:30:44] Vicki Cantrell: Right.

[00:30:45] Jeff Roster: And, uh, you know, unfortunately, I think the guy out in my, part of the, the, you know, states maybe kind of mucked up that word just won't say who

[00:30:53] Ricardo Belmar: just a little low,

[00:30:54] Jeff Roster: but, um, but no, I, so, so, we'll, so we'll have to, we'll have to, we'll have to square up, but I'm, I'm thinking [00:31:00] augmented reality, um, we've had it, we've had it in aviation for 20 years. 

[00:31:03] Ricardo Belmar: Uh, yeah. 

[00:31:03] Jeff Roster: I, trained in simulator, so pieces are not there. And I'll tell you the other thing that's the most interesting about this thing is not so much what Nike's doing in whatever the virtual reality world I think the best example is what Alta Cosmetics doing.

[00:31:18] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Jeff Roster: Um,

[00:31:19] and

[00:31:19] and they've got with Roblox and they've got a lot of young girls with moms playing in what sure sounds like a metaverse thing. So now you're taking it away from the boys playing world at war, and now you've gone, you know, a far bigger thing and there's clearly value there.

[00:31:34] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. And so

[00:31:35] Jeff Roster: that, that's when I heard that story. And it's actually even a better to share, but.

[00:31:42] that's telling me, okay, now we've, now 

[00:31:45] Vicki Cantrell: something 

[00:31:46] Ron Thurston: Yeah, and Altas such a great story because in every way, in every way, because it's accessible. You see it in, you know, the hundreds of locations, you see it all over the country.

[00:31:56] You have a very in-store touch feel, experience it as [00:32:00] you want. You have a metaverse digital immersive version of it, and I think that's, that's what great retail is. It's that incredibly immersive way to think about it. However you choose to experience it, 

[00:32:13] Jeff Roster: go. That's the point where you're not taking this entire heavy vision and you're just taking out the pieces. I mean, you look at like the smart mirrors that they're doing, where they're actually, they've actually invested in a, in an AI startup to be able to analyze skin. It's sort of started off as almost as a medical, uh, strategy.

[00:32:29] To determine skin cancers and all of a sudden, hey, well you know what, if we analyze skin, then we can better, you know, this is obviously not my area of expertise, but uh, I paid for a lot of this stuff with a daughter and a wife, , 

[00:32:39] I mean, that's heavy duty technology to involved in that business. And the other thing why I, I just love having Ulta on, on the pod is they have an investment firm 

[00:32:51] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:32:51] Jeff Roster: Okay. We're not talking about Walmart or Amazon now, we're talking and, and they're not small retailer. I mean, they're over $8 billion. So they're high, you know, they're not high. They're a [00:33:00] major tier one player, but they've set up an investment firm, so, they can go invest in the startup community for, for technologies that are appropriate to their business.

[00:33:07] And they've already made some acquisitions. And now, so, you know, the problem I've always had is an analyst using Walmart. And now Amazon is an example. Everyone says, oh, you know, you're giving permission to people not to pay attention. Oh, I'm not Walmart, I'm not Amazon. you're $2 billion retailer.

[00:33:22] You're a $4 billion, you do this. Or if, if you don't understand, somebody else 

[00:33:27] is 

[00:33:27] Vicki Cantrell: right. 

[00:33:27] Jeff Roster: And that's, you know, we're in the business of being in business and so, innovation, how you look at it. That needs to be in a mindset. Now, I'm not saying spend top dollar, but I am saying start thinking about your business differently.

[00:33:40] And most importantly, and this goes back to a bus ride, I don't know you remember in Honduras where we talked, started talking about the era of an intentional innovation.

[00:33:47] Vicki Cantrell: Uh, that

[00:33:48] absolutely right.

[00:33:49] Absolutely 

[00:33:49] Jeff Roster: You know, that was mid, that was more than a few moons ago, uh, I remember you and I were sitting there just kind of going back and forth and I was just expressing my frustration that the fact that retailers never, ever wanted [00:34:00] to talk about the mistakes they made from a technology perspective is, as an analyst.

[00:34:03] That was so difficult because that's how we learned. Well, and then you said, you know, Appropriately no one wanted to, you know, seem like they failed. And then, you know, being a Gartner and having colleagues in my direct practice that were in other verticals, when I would share that with them, they'd say, are you crazy?

[00:34:18] Our greatest successes in manufacturing were failures in theory. I mean, the 3M example of, uh, of um, uh, yellow, uh, stick notes

[00:34:27] that was post-its Yeah.

[00:34:28] it. That was like a failed glue experiment that, uh, that a guy that was in a choir wanted to be able to have some kind of a glue that he would stick so he could have his notes for, for singing and, oh, that glue that didn't work was perfect. We're, we're one of the few industries that don't celebrate, or at least didn't celebrate our failures. And that I think needs to change. And so if I can get 

[00:34:50] retail, senior retail leadership to say, you guys have to push the envelope and you have to be okay.

[00:34:56] Break the bank by failing, but fail fast, which is in Silicon [00:35:00] Valley.

[00:35:00] We live by

[00:35:00] Vicki Cantrell: right? Yeah.

[00:35:01] Jeff Roster: Fail fast.

[00:35:02] Ron Thurston: Yep, 

[00:35:02] Vicki Cantrell: you know, it's different now. The mindset is different now. Before there was a fear of that because it always touched the customer, and the customer was delicate. Now, today's customer very different. Today's customer lives, breathes and sleeps and eats with.

[00:35:21] Just

[00:35:21] mess in, in, in every retail experience, in every restaurant.

[00:35:27] You know, life, schools, education, politics, they live in a mess. Okay? So they are going to, and they don't make decisions about where they shop and who they shop with based on whether it was a perf. Perfect 

[00:35:41] experience, right? 

[00:35:43] They make it for different reasons. So again, you know, hate to beat a dead horse after 40 years of beating a dead horse,

[00:35:51] It starts with the customer and it's not about the customer who's walking in your store. It's about understand the human, what is happening to this [00:36:00] human these days? What is their life like? What is their family like? Understand them. And then apply your brand to it. Not here's my brand. Where do I find a person who will like 

[00:36:11] that?

[00:36:11] Ron Thurston: could not agree more?

[00:36:12] Vicki Cantrell: It's never been that way, but nobody, it just, it takes a long time to get that. And now the consumer, as they always do, is forcing. Mm-hmm. that so they are messier. So the retailer can be messier and be forgiven. And when the retailer says I was messy, I'm sorry.

[00:36:34] have at it. That's great. 

[00:36:35] Jeff Roster: Isn't that a better customer experience though? I'll, I'll, I'll

[00:36:37] Vicki Cantrell: go. It is. 

[00:36:38] Jeff Roster: if I, as a, if I as a retailer make a mistake, but then I fix it. Isn't that better?

[00:36:43] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:36:44] Jeff Roster: To that customer. Cuz then they, that's one that's, they perceive value in that they perceived honesty cuz it is in fact being honest. 

[00:36:50] Ron Thurston: Right, right.

[00:36:51] Jeff Roster: And you have a, you have a better, I think you have a better experience

[00:36:54] Ron Thurston: You do. It's authenticity and I, I would say the customer appreciates it. But so does the store team. The store [00:37:00] team knows when you've done maybe not the right thing. So if the company comes, senior leadership comes back and said, you know what we.

[00:37:08] We did make the right decision. We didn't spend money where we should have, and this is what we're gonna do differently. What that creates is retention for the store teams, which is probably another R word, along with

[00:37:19] the recession word, which I think will also come up this week. Um, I think employee, employee retention.

[00:37:25] I know I'm host, I'm, I'm doing, um, um, a panel tomorrow on that. I think this idea of what do brands need to do to hire, retain, and attract great talent. Yeah. It's, it's another 40 year like dead horse. To your point, Vicky , that you and I have been having this conversation also for many years, but it's, it's actually never been more important.

[00:37:48] Yeah. And it's really hard to say that in 2023, it's critical. It's it, it will make or break the future of any brand not retaining their talent.

[00:37:59] Vicki Cantrell: It's funny how it has [00:38:00] to do with people 

[00:38:00] still all still after

[00:38:02] Ron Thurston: still. It always comes back too. Yeah. Yeah. Which It's really good, but it's really, but it's messy.

[00:38:08] I love Vicky's word because managing humans is messy. Yeah. And it's hard, and which is also why I believe. Many people don't want to talk about it because it's really hard. Yeah, yeah. And it's emotional and there's, that emotion is bigger than ever. So that

[00:38:26] the ability to lead people in an inspiring way has never been harder.

[00:38:31] Yeah. 

[00:38:32] Jeff Roster: Yeah. You know what I like about that phrase, messy is, you know, one of the, one of the Metaverse technologies or uh, one of the 

[00:38:41] Ricardo Belmar: Immersive

[00:38:41] immersive commerce

[00:38:42] Vicki Cantrell: technologies

[00:38:42] Jeff Roster: technologies is live streaming. And now it's a done deal. It's a done deal in China.

[00:38:45] It's a done deals Asia PAC, and we just think we're now beginning to experiment with My only worry about that is if we try to over, over produce the live streams and I'll, the example I'll point to is B N H photo,

[00:38:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:39:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:01] So 

[00:39:01] Jeff Roster: n h photo, A lot of this equipment is from B&H Photo 

[00:39:05] Vicki Cantrell: right. I'm sure

[00:39:05] Jeff Roster: look around. And so for, for folks who dunno who that is, it's just literally the best, uh, camera shop in the planet, I would argue.

[00:39:13] Um, and it's, people are passionate. They're, the salespeople are exactly everyone you would want them to be

[00:39:19] Passionate about the product, use the product for our photographers. And so when you go in, you have this amazing experience. Well, I used to, you know, cause I live in California and there there's only one store and it's in right here in Manhattan.

[00:39:31] Um, you used to have to call in. , which was okay. And then they started doing text chat, which is actually okay, cuz then they could send links. Well, somebody said, why don't we just put a ca, we're a camera store, put a camera in there, . And the first one I did was like two years or whenever it was. And it was not 

[00:39:47] a good, I mean it was a good experience, but it was not a fancy, I mean, it was like, This is not a great stream, but the content was crazy and I'm like, this is fantastic.

[00:39:57] The guy's showing me this and he's, he's pulling out a [00:40:00] $3,000 camera lens and a 10,000, uh, Kathy, I put that one back. Okay. I didn't buy that one. . And then he brought over a cheaper way and I'm like, I'm like, this is crazy. And then, you know, Michael Zakour comes into your, your, uh, clubhouse and then he starts talking about what's happening in an Asia Pac.

[00:40:14] And I said, oh, that's novel idea. Why don't we look east? And then I go, wow, okay. So my only worry about that is if we try to make it too, If we over produce it, I think was the word I was looking for. And just, just let it be authentic. Let it be

[00:40:28] Vicki Cantrell: authentic, messy, let it be. Yes.

[00:40:31] Jeff Roster: you were the one Vicky at, when you were at Tori Birch, I think you were talking about, were at, at some conference you were talking about like a, a fashion show or something you did where you had nutty response, I mean, crazy responses, right? 

[00:40:44] Vicki Cantrell: Yes, because we, we did this test where we had such brand advocates. 

[00:40:49] Okay. 

[00:40:50] And it was. Path. I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, we went out to our customers and we made them part of the process novel.

[00:40:59] Here, [00:41:00] here's here's four buttons. Which one do you like? Okay. And they feel so in the know. Yeah. Look, people again, when I, I, I just bang that drum about, it's about people. It's about people, and it's about community. They belong to a community. People wanna belong. That's what they want. Right? Whatever it is, two people, 10 people, 5,000 people, and they became part of an insider community by being asked their opinion. It was extremely powerful. Yeah. And so, Yeah.

[00:41:33] Jeff Roster: I've never, I've never forgotten that story. 

[00:41:35] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. 

[00:41:35] Yeah. It's just 

[00:41:36] Ricardo Belmar: and just

[00:41:37] so I'll add on to that with one interesting point from one of the sessions today, from the, uh, the gmu consumer study that, that, uh, Gotham has been on the show many times.

[00:41:45] Uh,

[00:41:47] Preview.

[00:41:47] Jeff Roster: I haven't him on my show yet.

[00:41:48] How 

[00:41:49] Ricardo Belmar: I don't, well, I don't know 

[00:41:50] Jeff Roster: oh man,

[00:41:51] here

[00:41:51] Vicki Cantrell: I can, I 

[00:41:52] Ricardo Belmar: can yeah, maybe Vicki can pull some strings for you, Jeff, and get 'em on your. But he's, he's

[00:41:56] kind of been a 

[00:41:57] Vicki Cantrell: me. Maybe that would help.[00:42:00]

[00:42:00] Ron Thurston: Wow.

[00:42:00] Ricardo Belmar: be it. But he, 

[00:42:02] Jeff Roster: is is full contact 

[00:42:03] Ron Thurston: likes me too. He gives my book to his students. He likes 

[00:42:06] Ricardo Belmar: me too! 

[00:42:06] That's right.

[00:42:06] Yeah. . Here you go. So I think you, you've missed the boat on that one.

[00:42:10] somehow, Jeff. 

[00:42:11] Jeff Roster: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:42:12] Ricardo Belmar: So, but he did mention, uh, he had one of those points, if you remember, on, on the data he previewed about,

[00:42:18] Consumer pain points about having a, a, a store associate that wasn't helpful. It just wasn't around right when they wanted them to be.

[00:42:25] Right. That one's, and the reason I bring that one up is because, you know, you, you've been saying this now for, for half of our recorded time, Vicki, about the, that messy connection. Mm-hmm. . Right. And I think, Ron, you may remember, we've talked about this before, with that store associate being the live streamer, because they're the one that has the connection with the customers that shop at that store, which is exactly Jeff's story with B and h. Right? Because you, you know that store , you are a passionate fan of that store. So how could they not get you to buy something through a live stream showing you what it is, what the [00:43:00] product is, when you can't be there in the store to physically touch it?

[00:43:03] So I think that,

[00:43:03] that, to me 

[00:43:04] Vicki Cantrell: it doesn't have to be overproduced

[00:43:05] Ricardo Belmar: No. 

[00:43:06] It

[00:43:06] just has to be 

[00:43:06] Jeff Roster: that's, the

[00:43:07] Vicki Cantrell: because it's people working with people.

[00:43:09] Jeff Roster: and that's the key. And that's, I'm, I'm, I'm, you've gotta tweet out that term messy. If not, I'm stealing it because we need to make that, yeah. The standard. Don't screw this up. Right. Don't overproduce, sorry. Digital media folks, don't overproduce this.

[00:43:26] Vicki Cantrell: Perfect Is the enemy of the good? Yes. good.

[00:43:29] Jeff Roster: Make it clean, make it authentic. Make it honest.

[00:43:33] Ricardo Belmar: And I think the best proof point, and we were all talking about this before. The mics were on, about how many people have we run into on the second day that we're here, that we all felt like we're talking to them for about 10, 15 minutes.

[00:43:43] And so suddenly you realize this is the first time we're meeting in person , because we've only ever seen each other on Zoom calls and teams calls, and all these we're always just bit of square on

[00:43:52] a screen

[00:43:52] But we've done this for so long, now we feel like we have this existing connection 

[00:43:56] Ron Thurston: it's true.

[00:43:57] Ricardo Belmar: And, now we're in person.

[00:43:58] But you know, like [00:44:00] Ron, we, we hadn't met in person before.

[00:44:01] Ron Thurston: until Last night. Last night. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:44:03] Ricardo Belmar: So that's, to me is the proof point, right? Yeah. you know, that kind of a, I'll call it sounds negative, but I don't mean it to be low production value livestream because it's authentic and 

[00:44:15] Vicki Cantrell: Right.

[00:44:15] Ricardo Belmar: It's messy 

[00:44:16] Right, 

[00:44:16] Vicki Cantrell: right. That's why there's such tremendous buzz. Now that you say that, that's what what I'm thinking, it's a combination of seeing the people you've known forever and being so thrilled.

[00:44:25] Mm-hmm. to see that person. And at the same exact time, seeing a bunch of people that you've never seen in real life, only digitally. So you have this like, uh, information overload. 

[00:44:38] Ron Thurston: right? Yes, it's true.

[00:44:39] Vicki Cantrell: I have a, a statement I used to say like, when we were trying to implement systems quickly and let's get it done, I used to say, don't worry, be crappy.

[00:44:48] Mm-hmm. . Okay, and so . So now we could say, don't worry, be crappy because it's authentic.

[00:44:55] Ron Thurston: That's true.

[00:44:56] And

[00:44:56] Vicki Cantrell: add the authentic word. Yeah. 

[00:44:58] Ron Thurston: Authentics a

[00:44:58] good word for sure. It's,

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] Yeah.

[00:45:00] I think the challenge though, with some of that, that I've seen is it's just sometimes one more thing for the store to do. Yeah. So I actually think part of the conversation this week I'd like to hear is, what are you taking out?

[00:45:13] Yes. Not what are you adding to?

[00:45:15] Because it's, they've been asked to do BOPIS. They've been asked to actually do more returns from web. They've been asked sometimes then to livestream. They've been asked to chat from the website. Mm-hmm. , they've been asked to do many different things in stores. Yeah. What are you taking away so that the store can be that much better?

[00:45:32] What can you handle maybe in the office? How do you use staffing in a different way? How do. Hire people just to do livestream. Yeah. You know, so there's a lot of different ways, but adding more because you're in love with the new technology and the store's. Like what the hell?

[00:45:48] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. Sharon made such a good point about that today.

[00:45:50] Ron Thurston: She did. She 

[00:45:51] said

[00:45:51] Vicki Cantrell: you just don't realize that you're, that you're kind of piling on. Okay. 

[00:45:56] And you know, when's relative when you get to, um, [00:46:00] economic hard times and people are being laid off this, one of my least favorite sayings in the world is do more with less. Okay. And I've always said, no, that's not what you transitioned to.

[00:46:13] you, do less with less is what you do because there's always something to give up that does not hurt you. You just aren't thinking, you're not having innovation of thought. Okay. You're not looking at those things, those ham theory things that say, oh, why do you do that? Because I've always done it. So do less with less.

[00:46:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:33] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm. . And if

[00:46:33] you have less, maybe your budget is different in 2023. Right. What are your most important priorities Exactly. That are great for your team and great for your customer. And maybe you can't have everything you always dreamed of. Mm-hmm. , maybe this is not the year for it.

[00:46:47] Right. And that's okay. , it's okay. Yeah. But you should still come to an NRF show, learn what's happening. To your point, Jeff. Mm-hmm. don't be one of those brands that didn't pay attention and we're seeing the news, those that are not making it right. They didn't [00:47:00] pay attention. So pay attention, but maybe you don't execute everything in 2023.

[00:47:05] Right. And I think it's a thought process that I'm not sure all retailers do. I think they come here sometimes looking for that, all the ideas, and then want to execute all of them. You know, 

[00:47:17] Jeff Roster: Ron, you're the only voice in this industry for the store associate. I, I'm trying to think of, right.

[00:47:22] Is there anybody out there that would've just said what you just said, ? And the answer is no. I never would've said it because it it, I mean, I'm not a, I, I mean, I grew up in a store. I, well, I grew up with a World War II combat veteran father who, who would say you will absolutely do more with less. Because I did during the Great Depression, but he's not the most scalable person, so you're the only voice that's really even speaking to that.

[00:47:45] And how important is that? What can you take off the plate? Because it's just, it's crazy. 

[00:47:50] Ron Thurston: crazy. And it, it doesn't always mean that you want to do less. Sometimes you need to do more or just, but I think it's, it, it's that point earlier. [00:48:00] Listen, learn. What does the customer asking for? What does the team need?

[00:48:04] And then make a decision based on what you've heard, not the other way around. Right? Don't come to a conference call or to a, a big video call and say, guess what? I went to NRF and we're going into the Metaverse and you have, please don't say it, it's 300 stores on the call going. Okay. I can't even be on this call right now because I need to go ring some customers up, you know?

[00:48:25] So I think there's this sometimes like misconception. Yeah. Um, and thank you for saying that, Jeff. I just 

[00:48:31] think 

[00:48:32] Jeff Roster: I just, it's just, you're such an important voice out there and you're the only voice out there. 

[00:48:36] Ron Thurston: Okay. Yeah.

[00:48:38] And which is odd to me, you know, as someone just because I, I came from stores, but if 80% of your revenue.

[00:48:45] You know, comes from the store. 80% of the conversation should be about stores, in my opinion. Yeah. And it's not, it's not always the sexiest part, and it's the hardest 

[00:48:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:48:55] Jeff Roster: know 

[00:48:55] what? I have never

[00:48:56] thought of that

[00:48:57] Vicki Cantrell: before. Yeah, 

[00:48:58] Ron Thurston: yeah.

[00:48:58] Jeff Roster: Because I am willing to [00:49:00] bet in technology, 60 to 70% of the conversations around e-commerce.

[00:49:05] Because it's all technology driven.

[00:49:07] Ron Thurston: right? Yeah. I heck,

[00:49:08] Jeff Roster: don't know how we would analyze 

[00:49:09] that. Yeah. But I, it's gotta be that case. I've never thought about it in that regards

[00:49:12] Ron Thurston: before and most of those people don't come from stores. Right. So I think that there's this sometimes, you know, and I do believe in this, and sure, Vicky would back me up.

[00:49:23] Sometimes there's a lack of knowledge about the store because if you don't come from the store, you're uncomfortable in the environment. Yes. You actually don't know what questions to ask

[00:49:31] Vicki Cantrell: And you think it's easier than it, than it is. 

[00:49:33] Ron Thurston: That's exactly right. Right. So I would host often, you know, executive teams, or I would say to the office here in Times Square, I'm gonna be in Madison Avenue every Tuesday morning at nine.

[00:49:43] before you come in, meet me at the store to 150 people in the office, right? I'll be there every day. I will answer all of your questions. I will walk you through the store. Uh, you don't have to do anything except listen to the team and I'll lead the conversation. I could buyers, planners, finance [00:50:00] it, everybody.

[00:50:01] My, my own store team would come and listen and learn, but I did all the work for them cuz what happens?

[00:50:08] people go into stores, they don't actually know what questions

[00:50:10] Vicki Cantrell: Not a clue. 

[00:50:11] Ron Thurston: Right? They

[00:50:11] don't know. It's a way like, how's your business? Well read the flash. Like, you don't need me to do that. So I think that there's this almost fear, there's a fear of the store.

[00:50:22] Yeah. 

[00:50:22] Mm-hmm. that I'm personally trying to break down. 

[00:50:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:50:26] Jeff Roster: Yeah.

[00:50:26] Well, you know what's funny about that? So I, I really, a once I left my dad's operation and went off to college, um, I really was never in the store spot. I was in distribution and what do we have every year in distribution? We had a thing called inventory. And guess what we used to get to get, oh, we got all the people from the front office coming to.

[00:50:43] Ron Thurston: help us 

[00:50:44] Jeff Roster: and guess what we did about three days after -Unfix or fix all the help. So I, I was just thinking that, you know, I could really relate to

[00:50:53] that. The last thing

[00:50:54] you wanna see is, hey, we're from the upfront office, 

[00:50:56] Ron Thurston: we're here to

[00:50:56] help. 

[00:50:57] No, they, they're very proud that they work in stores on black Friday. [00:51:00] They're exactly, they're very proud of

[00:51:01] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:51:01] Ron Thurston: Holding down the

[00:51:02] Jeff Roster: turmoil. 

[00:51:05] Ron Thurston: No, it's true.

[00:51:05] Yeah.

[00:51:06] Jeff Roster: Let's

[00:51:07] put people, uh, in a high stress environment where everyone's on edge.

[00:51:11] Oh, it's funny. 

[00:51:12] Ron Thurston: Yeah.

[00:51:12] Jeff Roster: So funny.

[00:51:14] Oh, yay.

[00:51:15] Yayy. 

[00:51:15] Ricardo Belmar: Well,

[00:51:15] I, I'm gonna throw out one last thing for us to get some opinions on because maybe the, the final piece that I think we are going to hear more about, because the couple of conferences I've been to last year, this came up, uh, and it's been an, a pattern in a trend, and that's retailers doing more B2B kind of services than just selling to consumers to, because it goes right, you know, it's a high margin. Helps with the revenue might not be a lot, certainly not in the kind of com transactional volume you get from your stores, but taking things that you're good at as a retailer, bundling them up, selling it to other retailers. I'm seeing a lot of that. I, I think I, I have to believe we're gonna hear and see a good amount of, of noise about and buzz about that at N R [00:52:00] NRF this week.

[00:52:00] Ron Thurston: Hmm.

[00:52:01] Vicki Cantrell: I think that, uh, there's a couple themes there that, that play into that. Okay. First of all, it's, this is the best industry in the world and the most resilient, and the most creative, and the most agile because you are dealing with that customer and every day is different. For a retailer, every day is different.

[00:52:21] I don't know how else to say it. It's the truth, right? So since every day is different for, uh, a retailer, okay. In this world, nobody is doing anything by themselves. You can't be successful by yourself. This is why I talk about partnerships, right? Because what we've seen is the tech world coming together, spot solutions.

[00:52:47] Let me add on to this. I can help you. , look at the partner networks. They've grown and grown and grown like crazy. Right? Right. And and same thing with people thinking more partnership oriented. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . [00:53:00] I've just gotten to the point where no one can do it alone. Yeah. And they shouldn't. Yeah. And I think that is at crux of this is, yeah, look, if I can't build it, let's go find it.

[00:53:11] Let's work together. So

[00:53:13] Ron Thurston: yeah, I would agree with that.

[00:53:15] Jeff Roster: Well, I've always said, I think technology and retail is much more expensive than it needs to be because everything is competitive advantage, so we can't share anything.

[00:53:22] So everything has to be custom developed. You don't see that in other 

[00:53:25] Vicki Cantrell: Nope. Yeah, 

[00:53:25] Jeff Roster: in manufacturing, they're all, I mean, the CEOs are all 

[00:53:28] engineers. You're right. 

[00:53:29] I mean, they just, they just like, okay, if, if we all design a better drill rig, let's just compete on who can get the, you know, raw materials to market.

[00:53:37] Let's not compete on, Hey, I've got a, you know, A unique drill thing. I mean, it's just, it's crazy. When I, when I used to try to explain how retail operated inside my Gartner colleagues in other verticals, it was like they would look at us like, you are out of your mind, you're out of your minds. 

[00:53:55] Ron Thurston: Um, wow.

[00:53:56] Jeff Roster: and I get why we are, I mean, in some ways because we, I mean [00:54:00] we are the, the, we saw it in March and April of 2020 how thin the line of civilization is, it's one, it's one grocery, uh, supply chain. And if that supply chain would've crumbled, if, if the truckers would've said, Hey, listen, everyone's cutting and running and we're gonna cut and run too, we'd be, we'd be having a different conversation right now.

[00:54:20] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah, 

[00:54:21] Jeff Roster: Um, but, you know, let's just. Let's just maybe compete on doing better business and not necessarily on, I've designed conveyor some ways, you know, super unique. We'd be a better industry if we would would do that. We'd be, we'd be buying technology at a cheaper rate

[00:54:37] Vicki Cantrell: Yes, sure. Yes, yes.

[00:54:38] Ron Thurston: And I would argue that we're much more similar than we are different, of course, in many ways. And I think that's also often missed, that everyone thinks that their business is so special. Yeah. And, and they're not, you may you sell something different.

[00:54:52] Yeah. But the core of actually how this industry operates is not that different. And I do think we have to be more open to learn. Open to [00:55:00] listen, open to, you're right. Maybe it's, I, I buy it instead of developing it. Right. I don't hire someone or you do it in a popup and I learn how to do it uniquely. But I do think we, we.

[00:55:12] There's something, I don't know, Jeff, if you agree, there's something that we feel in this industry for every brand I've worked for, that no one does it as well as we do. 

[00:55:21] we're the best at it. And therefore I'm not gonna share my secrets. Exactly. And I, I'd like to like break that down a little.

[00:55:27] Jeff Roster: They're not secrets though, that's the thing. It's, it's like, you know, it's like, what is it? Um, uh, the emperor has no clothes. I mean, come on. It's, it's

[00:55:35] software. The people that benefit from that. And it's a bit heresy cuz these are some of my clients, but it's the consultancies who. Get, get, have gotten away with, you know, mass customization. And so if we could just absorb technology, and by the way, a lot of software companies say, listen, just accept code at base and you know, you, you'll drive the cost down.

[00:55:53] We'll be able to refresh what, and, you know, so it's, it's that whole mind shift

[00:55:57] Vicki Cantrell: Look, remember, people are always gonna protect their [00:56:00] turf.

[00:56:00] Jeff Roster: Hundred percent. 

[00:56:01] Vicki Cantrell: And when you think, not, not just from a brand perspective, but think about the infrastructure that's inside retail, where you have the heads of departments, okay? and, and when we tried to break down those silos okay. And get the communities to work together, cuz they have to do that to, to, have a great business.

[00:56:21] It's, people are very protective about their, whatever it knowledge, 

[00:56:26] their, their unique knowledge, their power, their salary, their, 

[00:56:30] you know, it's, it just goes to your core. And again, when you understand the person, you can deal with it in a, in a better way, but, You know, where that comes from is the protection of not what's mine.

[00:56:44] And, and then I've seen where each person thinks about it differently. A marketer's gonna be extremely protective.

[00:56:51] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:51] Vicki Cantrell: a digital person is much more open and free about, so, , how you were raised in the industry is really [00:57:00] affects how you react and how you are seeing all the groups together.

[00:57:05] They all have, CIOs have a very different personality. I'm not saying anything up or down, I'm just saying they all have a different

[00:57:11] Ricardo Belmar: personal, different 

[00:57:12] Jeff Roster: That's right,

[00:57:13] That's fair 

[00:57:13] Vicki Cantrell: They all totally valid and why and reason of how they grew up in the industry and now they're all. . Everybody has to work together. So it's, you're getting to the core of humanity.

[00:57:26] Ron Thurston: Hmm. Wow. That's deep. . It is

[00:57:32] Jeff Roster: and only only day two . 

[00:57:33] Ron Thurston: That's true. 

[00:57:34] Ricardo Belmar: And we're just getting started. Yeah. 

[00:57:36] Jeff Roster: But we're we're just getting started.

[00:57:38] Ricardo Belmar: That is probably a good place to wrap it up. What do you think, Jeff? 

[00:57:41] Jeff Roster: Fantastic

[00:57:41] I think so 

[00:57:42] kick 

[00:57:42] off I think so. Some of us have a San Francisco 49ers game to go watch 

[00:57:46] Vicki Cantrell: along. Yes. .Some of us have to go to the next thing. . 

[00:57:50] Ron Thurston: That's Yes, we 

[00:57:50] Ricardo Belmar: right. There's a lot of

[00:57:51] next things. for the next few days,

[00:57:54] Well,

[00:57:54] Vicky, Ron, thanks so much for joining Jeff,

[00:57:57] and myself to kick off this series. I can't think of two better [00:58:00] people we could have asked to join us for a great retail conversation.

[00:58:03] Jeff Roster: yeah

[00:58:03] Vicki Cantrell: This was very fun. 

[00:58:04] Jeff Roster: We need 

[00:58:04] Ron Thurston: there, yeah,

[00:58:05] Jeff Roster: like a little mini Ron podcast studio that we could tow 

[00:58:09] Ron Thurston: tell 

[00:58:09] Ricardo Belmar: right? That's 

[00:58:10] right. 

[00:58:10] Jeff Roster: Little foot wide Airstream. That would 

[00:58:12] Ricardo Belmar: the mini air stream to go

[00:58:14] Ron Thurston: It's, it's more glamorous than this little conference room, that's for sure 

[00:58:17] Jeff Roster: tell you gosh, Ron, you 

[00:58:20] I can't see an Airstream. I, every Airstream I see, I think of you. And there's an Airstream dealership in Morgan Hill too. And I, every time I go by that, I go, Ron over there, good good job, man.

[00:58:30] Ron Thurston: Thank you. Just Thank you

[00:58:32] . Thank you Thank you very much. 

[00:58:34] Jeff Roster: well done 

[00:58:36] Ron Thurston: thank you, Ricardo.

[00:58:36] Ricardo Belmar: Thank you. Thanks everybody. Jeff, until the next one. 

[00:58:39] Jeff Roster: Yeah, day three. 

[00:58:40] Ricardo Belmar: Let's

[00:58:40] day three. Let's 

[00:58:40] go.

[00:58:41] ​

[00:58:48] Show Close

[00:58:48] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone. Damn, you didn't oversell that intro. Ricardo. Killer discussion. I didn't even notice how long it was. It just had [00:59:00] me wanting more and wishing I was in the room.

[00:59:04] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, well, like I said, it, it's definitely getting my vote right now for best episode we've ever done. I mean, there, there, there's something to be said for capturing these kind of conversations in person, in a really small room among friends, and just a completely open discussion.

[00:59:18] Casey Golden: Well, I hope our listeners and viewers enjoyed that. I know I did. I really wish I had been there, but next time.

[00:59:26] Ricardo Belmar: Next time. Yep. And I'm, I'm sure this will not be the last time that you see this group get together for a chat. You can count on that and we'll, we'll, we'll bring them back for, for more in the future.

[00:59:36] Casey Golden: So for those of you paying attention, if you caught our other Rethink Retail friend in the background, well, if you've guessed it, Julia, Raymond . You'd be right. Julia was watching through the glass outside the conference room, taking a few pics. I bet she didn't expect you guys would be there so long either.

[00:59:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's so true. [01:00:00] That is so true. I'm sure she didn't think it would be quite that long. . Well, Casey, I think this wraps us up for the first part of our N R F Live mini-series.

[01:00:09] Casey Golden: Indeed it does. Stay tuned everyone for the rest of the series and be sure to catch the fun not only on the podcast, but also This Week in I nnovation hosted by Jeff Roster. Ricardo, that's a wrap.

[01:00:23] If you enjoyed the show, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcast. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Wanna know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets.

[01:00:46] I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[01:00:48] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about us and stay connected, follow us on Twitter at Casey c Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter, at Retail Razor, on LinkedIn, [01:01:00] and on our YouTube channel for the latest updates and content. 

[01:01:02] I'm your host Ricardo Belmar.

[01:01:05] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[01:01:06] ​

[01:01:06] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail if you cut through the clutter. Until next time, this is the Retail Razor Show. 

As we approach the end of Season 3 of the Retail Razor Show, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden engage in a rich dialogue with The Vitamin Shoppe’s Chief Customer Officer, Nadina Guglielmetti. They explore how customer behavior insights guide business decisions, the interplay between acquiring new customers and nurturing existing ones, and the evolution of customer experience amidst changing health trends. Nadina also details the role of The Vitamin Shoppe’s in-store health enthusiasts in enhancing customer engagement and trust, and their careful approach towards leveraging AI and 'headless commerce' platforms to enhance efficiency and personalization. In this final Retail Transformer episode of the season, you’ll learn why Nadina is truly more than meets the eye!

We also bring you the final episode in Season 1 of our "Blade to Greatness" mini-series. This episode features an insightful conversation with retail expert, Ron Thurston, co-founder of Ossy, author of Retail Pride, the Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career, host of the Retail in America nationwide tour and podcast, speaker, advisor, board member, and former retail operations leader at numerous famous retail brands. Ron shares his three pillars of success in retail and life- empathy, curiosity, and focus. He illuminates strategies to bridge the communication gap between corporate offices and stores, emphasizing the importance of empathy in grasping the pressures faced by in-store teams, the power of curiosity to understand their needs and experiences, and the role of focus in dealing with the information obtained. Ron also emphasizes the importance of maintaining transparency and dialogue with retail employees from the recruitment stage, thus enhancing their sense of belonging and commitment.

NEWS! We are thrilled to report that our fans support propelled us as a finalist in The Retail Voice Award for the Vendors In Partnership award gala at NRF 2024! You’re votes made a difference and we’re honored to be one of 3 finalists for this prestigious award!

WOW! As we march into our 3^rd year on the show, we’re honored and humbled to have hit the top of the charts on the Goodpodspodcast platform!

#1 in the Top 100 Indie Management Weekly chart

#3 in the Top 100 Indie Management Monthly chart

#3 in the Top 100 Indie Marketing Weekly chart

#5 in the Top 100 Marketing Weekly chart

#6 in the Top 100 Marketing Monthly chart

We can’t thank our Goodpods listeners enough! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag & Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Our spotlight shines again on immersive commerce this episode! We are answering a critically important question for retailers - what is the future of video commerce? To answer this question and truly dive deep into the treasure trove of conversion that is video commerce we've invited Vincent Yang, co-founder and CEO of Firework to the show! Vincent guides us through understanding the true nature and capabilities of video commerce. It's a fascinating discussion where you'll come away with an incredible list of insights and best practices you can apply to your retail business! We start with livestreaming, move to shoppable video and areas far beyond. Join us as we venture into mid-funnel and bottom funnel marketing strategies, to brand awareness tactics, to understanding marketing vs advertising and learn how video drives human engagement online. If you thought livestreaming was all there is to video in retail – think again! You’ll learn why a video commerce strategy is the digital equivalent to having an engaging store associate guide your customer journey.

Plus, we bring you the fourth topic in our new leadership segment on the show – ‘Blade to Greatness’! Ron Thurston, co-founder of Ossy, author of Retail Pride, the Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career, host of the Retail in America nationwide tour and podcast, speaker, advisor, board member, and former retail operations leader at Intermix, Saint Laurent, Bonobos, Tory Burch, Apple, and Williams-Sonoma joins us to share his insights on the issues facing frontline retail workers and retail leaders today.

In this episode, Ron talks to us about one of the most important skills a retail leader needs to master:

How to reframe your current job search processes to hire the right person!

We're currently at number 18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts & help keep moving our way up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Wow! Join us in celebrating our top of the charts achievements on the Goodpods podcast player!

No. 2 Podcast of the Week on the Management charts

Top 5 Podcast of the Month in the Management charts

Top 5 Podcast of the Week on the Marketing Charts

Thank you Goodpods listeners! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag & Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Co-host → Casey Golden,

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S4:E2 The Evolution from Omnichannel to Unified Commerce with Giri Agarwal

In this episode of the Retail Razor Show, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden discuss the shift from omnichannel to unified commerce in the retail industry. Special guest Giri Agarwal, Chief Strategy Officer at Incisiv, joins to share insights on how unified commerce is transforming customer experiences and driving revenue growth. They explore the concept of unified commerce, the integration of AI, and the challenges retailers face in adopting this approach. Key highlights include the importance of customer identification, empowering frontline staff, and rethinking store experiences. Giri also addresses the financial implications, generational differences in consumer behaviors, and the need for a cultural shift towards unified commerce. Tune in for an in-depth discussion on why now is the critical moment for retailers to embrace this change.

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Expert for 2024, 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, RETHINK Retail Top Retail Expert for 2024 and 2023, and Retail Cloud Alliance advisory council member. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, and E-Motive from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

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Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

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00:00 Show Start

00:20 Show Intro

02:35 Unified Commerce with Giri Agarwal from Incisiv

05:10 Defining Unified Commece

09:24 Challenges and Strategies for Unified Commerce

16:43 The Role of AI in Unified Commerce

23:10 The State of Unified Commerce in 2024

26:19 Generational Differences and Consumer Behavior

31:10 Key Differentiators for Unified Commerce

35:20 Financial Implications and Future Outlook

38:46 Risks of NOT Embracing Unified Commerce

44:51 Show Close

S1E8 – The Retail Avengers vs The Trials of Digital Transformation & Innovation, Part 2

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 8 of The Retail Razor Show!

For episode 8 we’re letting the Retail Avengers fly solo for Part 2 of our Digital Transformation & Innovation series and dig into understanding three key transformative technologies for retail – computer vision, Internet of Things, and 5G. Why are these so important for retailers, and how can retailers best use these technologies? Shish Shridhar and Trevor Sumner join our hosts for this lively discussion on Clubhouse!

And big news! Our podcast is holding strong on the Feedspot Top 60 Retail podcasts list! We’re sitting steady at #21, so please do give us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts if you like the show! With your help, we’ll be on our way to a Top 10 spot! 

Check it out here: https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

I’m your host, Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m your co-host, Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock and slayer of retail frankenstacks!

Together, we’re your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, we’ll help you cut through the clutter!

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

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TRANSCRIPT

S1E8 The Retail Avengers & The Trials of DX & Innovation, Part 2

[00:00:20] Introduction

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening, whatever time of day you're listening. Welcome to season one episode eight of the Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar a RETHINK Retail top retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:36] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the relationship between a brand and a customer. I've spent my career on the fashion side and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay franken-stacks!

[00:00:50] Ricardo Belmar: Well, this week, we are circling back to our digital transformation and innovation topic. For part two of this discussion, we had two other members of our Retail Avengers team join us both this time, Shish Sridhar and Trevor Sumner. 

[00:01:05] Casey Golden: I really enjoyed our conversation. We dive into three super interesting transformation and innovation topics that we didn't get into in part one. Last time we dug into how retailers are embracing digital transformation and innovation and where that innovation comes from, whether it's inside or outside of their business.

[00:01:26] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And that really set the stage for us by focusing on why today's retail, winners are winners and why others are well, not so much. 

[00:01:34] Casey Golden: Right. And maybe most importantly we discussed how much larger retailers and brands budgets are to invest in innovation, which is critical and frankly, new territory for a lot of brands. I don't think a lot of people realize how little investment has gone in to retail technology 

[00:01:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it, it honestly, it's, this feels like a once in a generation change for most retail businesses to honestly, a really positive change to be sure where we're finally seeing the level of investment that should have been there sooner. And again the people we see winning today, why are they winning?

[00:02:12] Because they started that increased investments so much sooner. So, you know, for listeners who didn't catch that part one discussion that we're, we're giving you the quick 50 cent tour right now. Go back, listen to season one, episode six, get caught up and then come back here for the deep dive into the three new topics. 

[00:02:29] Casey Golden: Yeah, open your pocket book and we'll be here waiting for you.

[00:02:33] Ricardo Belmar: Totally. Totally. We want to be sure and get those extra downloads on the pod too. So be sure and give that one a listen and come back. And if you missed any other episodes, boy, this is a great time to get caught up too. So you don't miss anything. 

[00:02:44] Casey Golden: Maybe we should let everyone know what the deep dive topics are for this episode.

[00:02:50] Ricardo Belmar: I suppose it's best not to keep it a surprise, right? 

[00:02:53] Casey Golden: Not unless it's a handbag or a plane ticket, but okay. So this way we go deep on three amazing topics, 5g, beyond a marketing campaign, internet of things also known as IOT. And of course Trevor's favorite computer vision.

[00:03:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. That's right. I am excited and just dying with anticipation. So let's jump into the clubhouse discussion and then we'll come back, wrap things up. Maybe we'll give some extra thoughts on those topics that we didn't get to in the clubhouse session

[00:03:25] Casey Golden: Sounds good. Ricardo. Let's listen to the retail Avengers versus the trials of digital transformation and innovation. 

[00:03:36] Clubhouse Session

[00:03:36] Ricardo Belmar: welcome everyone to the retail razor room today. Thanks for joining us. And we're going to talk about the future of digital transformation and innovation. Zeroing in on three areas of interest, 5g, internet of things, and computer vision. I'm going to let the other speakers introduce themselves here.

[00:03:53] Casey, why don't you kick us off? 

[00:03:54] Casey Golden: Hi there. Casey golden, I'm the founder of Lux lock a retail experience platform. And I've spent a career in the fashion and enterprise supply chain side of the business. Pretty much you name it. I've had to deal with the technology that I'm supposed to use to deal with it.

[00:04:14] So I'm looking forward to always being a part of our digital transformation conversations. There's a lot going on and like to contribute where I can. 

[00:04:22] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Thanks Casey. Shish. 

[00:04:24] Shish Shridhar: Good afternoon. I'm the retail lead with Microsoft for startups and I've worked with retail tech, startups, B2B retail, tech startups, and building out a portfolio of innovative, disruptive startups being in Microsoft for 24 years, really working in the retail industry for about 15 of those 24.

[00:04:45] And I'm also focused on AI IOT. So this conversation today is very interesting for me and looking forward to it. Thank you. 

[00:04:55] Ricardo Belmar: All right, Trevor. 

[00:04:56] Trevor Sumner: Hey everybody. My name is Trevor Sumner. I'm the CEO at perch. We do interactive retail displays and touchscreens at retail.

[00:05:03] What makes them cool is we use computer vision to detect what products people are touching at the shelf and respond with digital media, the moment that they touch it. So it's like minority report really interactive and kind of contextual commerce. And so really excited about this topic today.

[00:05:22] Ricardo Belmar: All right. And I'm Ricardo Belmar host of the retail razor club here on clubhouse. Also have spent the better part of the last couple of decades in the retail tech space, working with retailers, advising them on how to make the best investments in retail technology. Currently at Microsoft as a senior partner marketing advisor for retail.

[00:05:42] And let's go ahead and get things started. So quick summary on last week's session, this is sort of a continuation of our last room here. Where last week we talked more about broadly where digital transformation is headed, how that's fueling innovation in retail and retail tech. We talked about how retailers that are very much embracing the idea of digital transformation and digital innovation are the ones who are succeeding and winning.

[00:06:10] There's no doubt it continues to hold true that the retailers that wisely invest in the right technologies in ways that support their business and customers, not just for the sake of technology are the ones doing the best.

[00:06:23] And we also talked about where new investments are going to be coming from in various different areas in retail tech and fuel retail spend. Where IT groups and retailers are going to focus on that and which groups outside of IT even were going to look at different investment areas. And then we also talked a little bit about where retail tech startups are coming from, how they're seeking investment.

[00:06:45] And the fact that retailers themselves are starting to take on investment in those tech startups and how that's going to have an impact over the next few years in retail. So with that this week, we're going to narrow in on a few key areas that we touched on last week, but that we have previously talked a little bit about, but not really dove in deeply yet in, in this group.

[00:07:06] Computer Vision

[00:07:06] Ricardo Belmar: And since Trevor, you mentioned it, at the end there around computer vision. Why don't we start with that one? And let me just ask us some somewhat open question to the other speakers here on the panel, where do you see the most impact today with computer vision in retail, and where do you think that impact is going to be reflected and say by 2025?

[00:07:26] And how do you think it's going to change? Let's kick off the discussion with that?

[00:07:29] Trevor Sumner: I think, I think, you know, generally like the most like most technologies, it starts with basics, right? And so I think computer vision is really interesting in, in being able to understand the physical world and translate it into information that can be leveraged, optimized in interesting ways.

[00:07:49] And right now I think that a majority of it is looking at planagram enforcement, it's looking for out of stocks on inventory, things where they're cost centers to where there can be, basic optimizations to make things more efficient. Some of it is in, warehousing and in the back office inventory management there.

[00:08:11] But just looking at what's what's on the shelves, what's not on the shelves knowing what needs to be refreshed, et cetera. I advise a company called cooler group that does a little cameras that are attached into cooler doors that can take a look at what's in it because often, the coolers at a seven 11 are actually refreshed by the brand like a Pepsi or Coke.

[00:08:30] And so now they know which stores they actually have to go to and which ones they don't and can make their operations much more efficient. So that's where I think it starts, there are some basic, retail, analytics and retail next, and other people who are looking at traffic flow.

[00:08:43] But it's really basic. And I think it's going to get really interesting when you get granular down to the product level, but that's where I think kind of the base starting is. And we can talk a little bit about some of the exciting areas of where it's going.

[00:08:54] Shish Shridhar: I can think from a vision perspective. Yeah. Trevor covered everything that's going on. And the use cases are growing all the time. I've seen some interesting use cases as well when it comes to vision. So the most common is something that Trevor pointed out, which is the on-shelf availability, the planogramming, and, and really determining where, whether it is in compliance.

[00:09:19] And then. The main part of what Travis is doing, which is engaging the customer through, through video. And there's another company that I work with called cooler screens. There's also presenting media content on the cooler doors based on who is engaging with it. And all of that. In addition to that, the other interesting scenarios that I've seen popping up in addition to loss prevention is fresh food where video is being used to determine the freshness of food though there's another sensor at play that I've seen being used in addition to video and sort of augmented, and those are smell sensors. There is a company I'm working with out of Canada called Stratusint, and that is using smell sensors, and they train their models for different types of food for greens and others, to really determine what's the smell like when it is about to get spoiled.

[00:10:14] And then they hook it up to dynamic pricing system so that when it's fresh food, they can start dropping the price and driving promotions and things like that. So that there is a reduction of food wastage. So that's sort of an interesting use case that combines video and smell sensing.

[00:10:32] The other aspect of course, is in, within the store itself, that behavioral analysis of, of the customers where exactly are people moving around, which are the busy parts of the store at what time of day, and is a busy what's the demographics, is it you know, 20 year olds, 20 year old males females, it, it analyzes that information to get a better understanding of the store layout and, and where exactly the fast moving items are conversion as well, based on where people go to.

[00:11:04] And is there a conversion in those areas? So there's some interesting insights that, that companies are driving, just using video analytics which is super interesting. 

[00:11:14] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. That's a common one with looking at the demographics for video delivery and cooler screens.

[00:11:19] Which raised, I think just raised $80 million is doing some cool things and, a bunch of companies quividi and mobilize and others who are basically using demographics to determine , what to put on digital screens. But to your point, that the other way this is going is, you know, a lot of retailers are looking at their retail spaces as advertising networks and putting up large digital signage networks and they're selling that right now on a here's what my traffic is at this specific time in this type of store by demographics. So you can target by demographic, but where they're missing right now, and it's having a good conversation about this is that's not how media people want to buy on a CPM or, Hey, you want to reach, you know, 30 to 35 year olds or whatever it is that they want to know more kind of on the cost per interaction and verified impression side.

[00:12:09] And so that's a little bit of the frontier about, where it is right now, which is overall kind of demographics and CPM detection to be able to do much more kind of verified interactivity, verified engagement and kind of more CPC metrics. And I think that's gonna once you get there, you will see, like, if you look at it, 1% of digital media spend happens where 85% of transactions occur in store.

[00:12:39] So, you know, like that is going to be a major shift when they can crack that code and provide people, the data attribution that they need. 

[00:12:46] Shish Shridhar: Yep. And the, the other scenario that I failed to mention is the live streaming aspect, which is gaining a lot of traction. And there's multiple scenarios where livestream shopping is becoming a big part of brick and mortar retail where, it's either the store associates or personal shoppers, really driving that engagement and enabling the video to be shoppable.

[00:13:12] And that's again, another really interesting area where edge AI comes in, where the video streams you can detect, what products they're looking at and be able to based on, on what it is detecting. You're able to add it to your cart and, be able to buy directly from video. And I think that's a really interesting area that's growing s growing 

[00:13:31] Ricardo Belmar: so we've got a lot of good examples there from shoppable video to traffic analytics. I like the point Trevor raised about turning your store and treating it like media as relates to digital signage networks and how we can leverage video analytics and understanding the demographics of customers to know how to target content.

[00:13:52] I think that's something that will be really interesting as that develops. And then we also had an example, which was actually one of the first ones I was thinking of as well, that Shish brought up around analyzing store shelves particularly in, in grocery where I've seen a number of examples lately.

[00:14:08] Oftentimes coupled with robotics, which I didn't list that as one of the key elements here, but we've seen a lot of use cases for grocery, with robotics or the robot leveraging computer vision and shelf analysis. Well, moving down the aisle to understand where they're empty spots that need to be replenished quickly and kind of helping to alleviate some of the more tedious functions in running the store and having associates just check for things that are running low and restocking, but now having some added intelligence in advance to know where exactly do I need to replenish things. So there, there are things we can see coming that help both from a store operations side of the house to just general experience factors around the signage and around content that's being placed in front of customers, as well as analyzing effectiveness of that through computer vision from video analytics and video analytics, I think is also interesting because I've seen that that's been around for a few years now.

[00:15:02] I think even before we started really associating that with computer vision, a number of the analytics vendors started promoting video analytics, verge of basic traffic analysis in your store, understanding hot zones in the store and looking at those traffic patterns to kind of help you make decisions around where to place products in the store, where you might want to make changes based on what's most attractive.

[00:15:24] And what's the most common path through the store. In fact cause you to rearrange fixtures in the store to accommodate that. So I think there are a number of really interesting use cases there. I want to come back to a couple of areas here that I think were the most interesting. One is specific to the digital signage and content placement that you mentioned Trevor.

[00:15:44] So I I've been, dealing with digital signage for a long time and lots of different flavors. And I always remember, we'd have years where people would declare it. This is going to be the year of digital signage where every retail store is going to start peppering their, their fixtures and displays and walls with screens to get so much available content that's out there and leverage that in the store at the place of purchase.

[00:16:08] And I'll say one of the things that I always found was the most challenging for the majority of retailers in that scenario was actually getting the content for the store, which maybe sounds a little counterintuitive, but I found that with most retailers, the issue was refreshing the content and making enough of a volume of content available so that if you did want to take advantage of the more clever things where you rely on let's say you want to rely on the video analytics to tell you which content to place on what screen, based on the demographics.

[00:16:39] So, or customer information you have of who's actually in your store. It takes a lot of content to be available. Even if that content may not get shown on the screen, you need to have access to a significant enough amount of content to make this interesting and to get the right ROI on it. And in the past my experience, and I'd be curious, Trevor if you've seen similar or Shish if, you've seen similar as well. You know, a lot of retailers just weren't prepared for that volume of content. I think there was an assumption that if I had content on my YouTube channel, I just reuse that. Or if I had advertising content that I'd use for TV spots or other out-of-home video that I leveraged that, but it might not necessarily be the right content at the right moment in that customer journey when people are walking past the screen.

[00:17:24] Shish Shridhar: So one of the areas that I'm kind of seeing it in a lot of uptake and interest in is really retailers trying to monetize that opportunity where shelf edge, for example, the shelf edge video that Kroger experimented with some time ago. And there's other companies like SES imagotag , that's also working on where, what they're really doing is they have a platform in the background that enabled suppliers to bid based on the insights that is being gathered in the store the insights of behavioral data where exactly do people dwell?

[00:18:00] What are they looking at? What time of day what's the demographics and using that information. And feeding it back to suppliers so that they can bid for specific content to be displayed in specific areas at specific times. I think that is the area that there is a lot of movement in, and a lot of retailers are looking at this as an opportunity to monetize and have suppliers really use their content and push it down.

[00:18:30] And then this is based on, the insights that is gathered in the store. And that's something that I I'm seeing a lot of. And I think that's going to grow. 

[00:18:38] Thank you. 

[00:18:39] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. think it's interesting because traditionally, this has been hard, like a lot of digital signage systems. You were supposed to go with a USB and update the content and that's crazy.

[00:18:49] Right. And so internet connectivity is starting to be solved. You have Walgreens installing 5g in 9,000 stores. You know, we're seeing store wifi networks being updated and to, to Shish's' point that, we're moving towards a programmatic model. And you know, the part of the problem was they didn't go big enough.

[00:19:09] Right. And so you didn't have the network of inventory, it's like, I think of these programmatic networks is like banner ad networks for a variety of reasons. I think this, type of programmatic buys meant to be, you know, interruptive media and much more promotional based like a banner ad.

[00:19:25] But you need a big network so that you have people to bid on it, and then you need this attribution, which they also didn't have. They said, okay, well, I've got this many people in store. Why don't you advertise it to them? Like, well, what are the demographics? Okay. I lit up the advertising, what are my what's my sales stuff look like, oh, you won't share sales data with me.

[00:19:42] Like, how am I supposed to buy this stuff? Went on Facebook or Instagram or Google. I can measure exactly demographics, target very finely, look at clicks, which had conversion rates and have all that data. I can't. Yeah, go back to a world where, I know my advertising is working on half, but I don't know which half kind of thing.

[00:20:01] So I think that that's fundamentally changing. And I think underlying that is that kind of conductivity and people making big budgets. Like I think, you know, I was talking to somebody that, that like Kroger Kroger is hiring like 60 ad salespeople. So if you're asking me like, when is that happening?

[00:20:19] It's this world happening it's happening right now. Right. That Kroger's got this, you know, side company called 84 51 doing analytics video, that kind of stuff. Walmarts media network is now extending into store CVS put out an RFP to you know, 500, 800 stores with huge digital signage networks.

[00:20:38] So I think it's happening now. And, you know, over the course of the next year, you're going to see this because. It's a huge opportunity. Again, you know, only 1% of digital media spend is happens in store where 85% of transactions occur. I just think retailers need to continue to evolve their offerings, share data, so that you can look at demographic targeting, verifying interaction, some of the stuff that cooler screens as doing, and then also provide sales data.

[00:21:08] Like if you spent, what is my return on ad spend? Like, you need to answer that question or you're not going to get the ad dollars. And if you expect it just to come from trade dollars, I think you're missing out on the pie of, of, of where the media spend is. 

[00:21:21] Casey Golden: I completely agree. I really see a lot of this democratizing data and relief.

[00:21:29] A lot of the handcuffs that have been on it. I think it's going to be shared much more freely because it's going to be easier to get. And you're either a good partner or you're not. 

[00:21:39] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I agree. I think there's a key point there about being a good partner. If you think about what the brands for the products that you have in the store are used to experiencing, I think you've hit on the right point there where those brands are used to having access to that data.

[00:21:53] So they can calculate that return on ad spend. They know exactly whether this particular ad spend was the one that helped you make a denser and make, make. On purchases. They want to know that they don't want to just take, essentially take it on, on faith that yeah. I spent this money with you as a retailer and you showed an increase in sales, but do I even really know if it was sales that I care about because it was my product versus others in the category.

[00:22:17] I think that's important to have the granularity that you can talk back to your partners and share that information with them is going to be critical. And that's, what's going to help these things grow and expand. I would say that if we kind of look out a few years into this, what does, what does it look like?

[00:22:33] You know, you have a combination of much more intelligence around signage for content display, but it beyond just signage. I think if we think of computer vision and this maybe will help us kind of shift into a discussion on a more internet of things, type of things more of a. Three-dimensional capability, which I know Trevor's going to jump in here and tell me more about in a moment, but you know, the ability to actually interact with the merchandise in a way that also triggers new content on surrounding displays and tandem between sensors and computer vision, all helping to improve that experience for the customer.

[00:23:08] But at the same time generating the kind of data that brands are expecting to see for those products that they might get in other mediums, like an social, for example, where, you know, they'll know things, basic things like click-throughs I'll know, impressions, they'll know, viewing Tom, if it was a video, if you have a content that's going in a store and it's, you have multiple products in the category and a display case, of course, each individual brand is going to want to know, well, which product did the customer stand there looking at the longest? Was it mine? Was it a competitive product and the category? Which one did they pick up? How long did they hold it, did that. Was that was that followed by a sale. Those are the kinds of data points they're going to want to know which in other digital marketing mediums, you know, all of this data is there today.

[00:23:52] Internet of Things

[00:23:52] Ricardo Belmar: And it's been missing, in that store format. And these are areas that, there's so much room to free that data and make it more accessible to both the retailer and the brands to act on. I think there's, there's a significant, powerful capability that that's coming there and you can start to see it now, but I think we're going to see this much more ubiquitously in the years to come.

[00:24:11] So let's take advantage of this and kind of shift a little bit more into things like sensors and other internet of things. A couple of the examples we talked about have already touched on this. I'm going to circle back to grocery cause that's one of my favorite topics here and examples with shelf sensors that help you understand when you need to replenish that shelf.

[00:24:31] Okay. Sensors that help you understand the temperature in your cooler cases? You know, my, one of my favorite examples are grocers who are leveraging these sensors and coolers, and then having robotics go up and down the aisle and capture the, those data points, send them out so that we don't need to waste any employee's time with having to run around with the temperature sensor to actually check those times.

[00:24:53] You can do thousands of these temp checks throughout the day, and know exactly where you may have a problem coming up. You know, exactly if you're going to need maintenance, you know, exactly. If it was going to be an issue with product safety without having to ask people to repeatedly, go out there and take on this tedious task.

[00:25:08] So there's operational benefits of sensor type devices like this. Then there are things that are more experience driven and display cases shelf counts. We've heard a couple of these examples. Shish, Trevor you've both mentioned some. When it comes to leveraging the data generated by these sensors, I can see an example where, store associates who are engaged with the customer in a more personal one-on-one experience might be able to leverage data, being generated by sensors throughout the store. So that when someone says, you know, do we have something it's immediately available to them? And they know exactly where it is in the store, for example, without having to search or find it.

[00:25:46] We've seen some past examples of places where a customer in a fitting room, for example, realizes, oh, I need a different size of this particular merchandise. I have to wait until I talk to someone that, to tell them that I need help finding that. But if you have the right sensors in the fitting room and the right tags on the merchandise, you know exactly what merchandise is there, and you can offer an experience to the customer to, for example, tap on a screen or tap on their own device that sends a message to someone else in the store that says exactly what it is they need.

[00:26:13] And they can just bring it over to them. And I think that would bring a new level of in store personalization for that, that we've seen examples of this, but it hasn't quite gone mainstream. And I think that's something that's yet to come. But , I'll put it out to everybody else on the panel or some other examples where you see this area of IOT and then sensor technology, helping to improve that in store experience.

[00:26:35] Shish Shridhar: A couple of things that I, I I'm fascinated about is also the sensors driving automation. And one of them is, you know, the sensors that are detecting the shelves looking at availability of products or lack of availability of products, and then kicking off a process either as a notification to store associates, to replenish or kicking off a reorder process in the back end.

[00:27:00] So those kinds of automations are interesting. In addition, also video analytics that notices a spill in a particular aisle then creates a task automatically for a store associate or an employee to be able to, to be aware of what's going on in the store. Whether it is assistance needed for a customer based on behavioral data, whether it is detecting a potential fraud and it's it's notifying people.

[00:27:29] So that kind of an automation is, is kind of fascinating where the sensors, the noxious detecting information, but it kicking off processes and book flows in the background. And, and that's an interesting area that, that, that is happening. The other part of it is the, the range of senses. As I mentioned earlier, where for us aunts on shelf availability, there's weight sensors, there's video analytics.

[00:27:56] And then there is other kinds of sensing as well to detect whether with a product is going bad. Like for example, I mentioned smell sensors. So those are getting to be interesting as well, where there's a lot of sensors in place for detecting what's going on in store. The, the other one that I think is fascinating is sensors that bring in the experiences or what happens online into the store.

[00:28:24] A good example of that is retargeting where as a shopper may have done a search online using their account, gone to, you know, the online store and then done a search picked a product, but not actually bought it. Then when they walk into the store with a mobile device, it automatically detects that they've walked in and could potentially do a retarget or promo and so on.

[00:28:49] It also can act on dwell times. It knows that I have dwelled in front of a product. It indicates that I've got interested in the product, but I've not bought the product so that information can be acted on as well. When in the store or online that retargeting from store to online. And the other way around is sort of interesting areas that, that sensors come into play.

[00:29:13] Thank you.

[00:29:17] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. And I think as you look towards the future, right now, people have been talking about facial recognition as part of that identity closed, looping the identity from online to in store. And so, you know, we'll see how far we go down that and some of the privacy concerns or whether we'll tolerate these things, but that's why I thought, the whole face scan technology for payments was really interesting is because, you know, that's basically creating that facial ID library, which can then be used throughout the store. So I think some of that stuff, as you look at it is really a Trojan horse. And you know, one of the things I look at with all of these is just like, who is doing these clever things to capture data for computer vision. So when, for example, like we talked a little bit about identifying products from pictures, so you can do or video, so you can do social selling, right?

[00:30:04] So live shoppable videos. Well, where do you get the product imagery, right? Because you can hold the product and lots of different ways in a video, et cetera, et cetera. Well, what target does is, you know, during the, in the checkout counter when you scan the product, it has, it has cameras.

[00:30:19] And so you, you, you, you know, scan the product at lots of different angles, you know, just as people. And they take pictures of it. And then when they get the UPC code that they say, okay, all right, great. This is pro products to XYZ, 12 ounce that that's at the top and they have, you know, 50, a hundred pictures of that product, every scan.

[00:30:39] And so they have an immense fiber library of images of a product in every different direction. And it's a clever way to build a product recognition database. Right. And so, you know, at the same way that facial scanning for payment is a clever way to create facial identity, you know, a database. And so then when I look at all these technologies that are being adopted and when I think about Walmart giving away, you know, 700,000 devices to, to, to their employees, I always think, okay, what new access to data are these guys building and leveraging for the future.

[00:31:16] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's a good point about the, as I like to think of it, the volume of data that we're now generating by using these technologies and what are we going to do with that data, who's going to get access to it. And how will they be able to take advantage of it in a, in a positive way? 

[00:31:30] Casey Golden: think a lot of the computer vision and these types of technologies going in store, we'll be able to fill in a lot of gaps and add context to digital data that we've been sitting on.

[00:31:42] It'll be a lot easier to understand unconventional a recommendation like building out unconventional recommendation engines and really understanding how people are really shopping in store to improve the way that items are merchandised and assorted or even planned for online.

[00:32:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's another good point on the data aspects of it as well. Let me go back to, you know, again, so keeping this in the context of IOT and sensors, that we also just talked about computer vision, you know, the data piece reflects on all of these, especially around the volume of data, as well as your, where it's being used, how it's being used.

[00:32:26] 5G

[00:32:26] Ricardo Belmar: let's kind of connect this to the communications mean that that's going to become available both to the store and to other locations because of 5g. I'm going to kind of, I want to start with you Trevor, cause I know you've talked quite a bit and this was one of your predictions. If I recall at the beginning of the year as what was going to happen and what 5g would open.

[00:32:44] Within retail for this year. So I'd like to get your thoughts on how you see 5g kind of connecting the dots here and helping us move all this data around to where it needs to be. 

[00:32:53] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. I mean, the I in IOT is connectivity, right? It's connectivity to the internet. And you know, it's just amazing how bad store and vendor wifi is.

[00:33:03] I mean, it's, it's, it's horrible. Right? And they changed the password. They block ports, they do all these other things. It's not evenly distributed in store. They just didn't do a good job with it. And 5g promises to be able to solve this through, greater throughput, faster connectivity, the latency on a connection is much, much lower and then the devices can talk to each other.

[00:33:27] And so you can have really dense networks , of nodes, of devices and sensors and all these things kind of operating independently on very kind of low cost hardware. And so, the IDC projects that , you'll see about a 10 X increase in IOT in retail in the next four years. And like, this is happening now, right?

[00:33:48] Like Walmart, I think is processing 5 billion IOT messages every single day. And so people are doing it now, and this is where you're seeing like Walgreens implementing 5g across 9,000 stores. And, and what they're saying is there all these things that we talked about, right. They want inventory scanning robots, planagram enforcement, robots.

[00:34:08] They want interactive displays. They want all this type of stuff. And the reality is it's the dirty little secret about why this has been such a difficult business is all the operational low-level stuff that can go wrong. And it's especially hard when you don't have connectivity and you don't have visibility into what's going on.

[00:34:29] So I think it's just as a super core tenant to be able to network all these devices with lower cost hardware, much more reliable ubiquitous throughout the store. And it'll make engineering and development and deployment much less expensive, which then opens up a new suite of applications like, , for perch, we started off like doing these high-end displays for like Joe Malone, but our fastest growing customer segment right now is in grocery because we've got the price point to a place where it made sense. And, part of that is looking at the, hardware technologies and some clever things we've done around the financing and other things. But part of it is just the underlying technologies enabling, shifts in cost structure that make a lot of sense. 

[00:35:15] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I think that's a good point.

[00:35:17] And to your point about the the wifi, I've always been saying to retailers in the industry, you know, the only thing worse than no wifi in a store is bad wifi, because it's even more frustrating than when you can't get connected, the fact that you get connected, but then it's terrible makes the experience a hundred times worse.

[00:35:35] Trevor Sumner: Yeah, totally. And, because of that, I shipped with a 4g router with every single one of our Perch units, and that adds, 200, $250 in cost per unit that adds somewhere between five and $25 per month. So that's, another 60 to $300 on an annual basis.

[00:35:56] And so like that, that just pushes you off into too expensive territory for a bunch of stuff, as opposed to here's the CPU that speaks 5g right out of the bat. I don't have to buy any of that networking stuff and I don't have to pay Verizon or, Vodafone or whoever you're using. And all of a sudden, you're shaving 25% off my cost basis and operating this.

[00:36:18] I mean, that's, that's solid amount, but what that really does is it opens up whole new tiers of applications that make this kind of sensor enabled future possible. 

[00:36:29] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's a good point on a cost difference there. And then I think I'll even throw in there's some other advantages that will hopefully get opened up as the 5g carrier define what more detail specific services that make sense for retailers. You know, there are capabilities in 5g that lets you carve out dedicated capacity within a channel. So for example, a retailer could say, I want to have some dedicated connectivity between a set of stores and maybe a fulfillment center distribution center, or maybe I want to have a distinct channel back to a supplier for specific things or, you know, those digital signage media networks we talked about earlier.

[00:37:07] If I want to keep that separate such that it doesn't interfere with other store traffic which in the past has always produced the strangest of problems. I can't even begin to count how many different retailers I've worked with where fundamental performance issues in the store just came down to one set of technology interfering on the communications link with other technologies, all fighting for the same capacity. And nobody really realized that these things needed to have just some dedicated carved out capacity. So 5g should allow for some of these new models to, to appear, to let things function a little bit smoother with dedicated capacity and space for all the different things going on in the store to kind of play nicely together and share in that space, which is something that you know, I remember when 4g started, you know, that was supposed to be one of the promises, but I think we quickly learned that it just wants to really have the strength to do that in store compared to building a solid wifi network instead.

[00:38:03] Casey Golden: A hundred percent. Trevor really said it well with not having our stores with premium wifi. It's one thing to be able to make a phone call or look something up on the internet.

[00:38:14] But when we get to engage with more AR applications and hologram tech and just all the types of immersive technologies that will be able to be powered onsite it could get really interesting and really innovative as long as these systems can, can actually run. 

[00:38:32] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. I'll give another example, right?

[00:38:34] It's like, we're talking a lot about computer vision. Well, where does the vision processing happen? If you can't transmit video streams over, a significant sized internet pipe to some central location, you have to do it locally, which means that you have really powerful CPU's that cost money, right?

[00:38:53] So, our Perch CPU's costs, like a media players, 400, 500, $600, and they're capable of doing, a reasonable amount of vision processing. Now, if you can just communicate that video stream to some central server to be processed afterwards now at zero and not zero, but near zero.

[00:39:10] And so, it's tremendous what, again, the, challenge has been the costs, the maintenance, the, the way that these things break down, the more you can make them dumb sensors that can communicate through thick pipes to centralize processing. That's aware of all the sensors and looking at how it's not just a video from one view, but it's video from multiple views. You can do more intelligent computer vision and analysis and do that centrally once that model takes hold. It's just it's an exponential shift in computing power and, and intelligence and also an exponential shift, lower income.

[00:39:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And then just thinking more about, this video example, what better model than if you could take all of these devices and systems generating these video streams, especially for example, if we're talking about live streaming out of the store, what better model than to try to push that out over 5g and not even have it on the store network at all?

[00:40:08] Not have it go over the wifi, not to have it go over the same store network. That's driving all your POS transactions, but separate it and have it go out of her 5g on a low latency systems so that it gets good performance to all the people watching that video. Likewise, if it's sensor-based generating this, these video files or video streams and it, because it's shelf technology, that's looking for gaps for replenishment. You want accuracy. And the best way you're going to get accuracy is to have reliable high capacity connectivity for that. So I think those are all good models that really speak to what we can hope to accomplish here with 5g. 

[00:40:40] I would, put the stake in the ground now that says, if we're talking 2025, right. That's for three years out, we're going to see 5g quite widespread across stores everywhere in one form or another, even if it's just doing, and I'll put just in air quotes, because it's not like it's an insignificance activity, but even if it's just supporting live streaming, I think that's going to be a significant factor just right there to help facilitate the adoption of that technology.

[00:41:06] So I would even put it into those terms where I think this is what you were saying, Trevor is, is you reduce the cost to simpler devices that have that connectivity built in you're lowering that cost basis and making it easier to adopt these new technologies in the store and make it more ubiquitous across the entire brands store fleet.

[00:41:23] So this might be a good point to pause and I'll, ask, if anyone in our audience has a question we've taken a trip across computer vision IOT. We had some digital signage sprinkled in there and we've ended up at 5g. I'm curious if anyone in our audience has some questions.

[00:41:38] Questions

[00:41:38] Ricardo Belmar: I think I see a hand raised there.

[00:41:41] All right, Jamie. Welcome to the stage.

[00:41:42] Jamie Tenser: Well, hello, greetings. This is a great conversation. I really want to compliment every one of the speakers today, as it brings together some ideas that I've been thinking about for a long time. My, my real question, I guess right now is how inextricable are in-store media and in store sensing, we've tended to look at them as sort of separate areas of pursuit.

[00:42:06] Is it really converging into one thing? And I wonder what the panelists think about that. 

[00:42:11] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, that's a great question. You're really getting at what point is the store really starting to look like pure media, right? 

[00:42:18] Jamie Tenser: Well, yeah. And, if it's all right, I'll say that one of the statements I repeated for years is what I called the retail media ecology principle that the store is a communications environment for brand messages. That's on the front page of my website. So I'm a believer going in, but it does feel like the forces are converging as several people said today.

[00:42:42] So I'll shut up and I'm very curious what the smart folks have to say about it.

[00:42:46] Trevor Sumner: Yeah, I mean, look, I think it goes back to this, people don't want to put just straight digital signage, flashy texts that says maybe it's Maybelline, maybe it's Maybelline, maybe it's Maybelline. It doesn't really help.

[00:42:57] it doesn't help the shopper because it's not contextual and it also doesn't help the brand because they can't measure it. They don't know if it's working or not. And so sensors allow both you to be more intelligent and providing the right message at the right time and also to be able to attribute, you know, kind of action.

[00:43:14] So one of the things that we're doing is using computer vision to detect when somebody takes a product away from the shelf. So if the retailer doesn't want to share store level sales data with you, you don't need it. . Like somebody picked up, you know, the tide package and they walked away with it.

[00:43:30] So let's just say, let's call that a sale because 90% of the time it is, and we can say, you know, does that, does that work based upon, kind of the metrics that you're looking at? I mean, we're for example, we just made a major launch with Purina at Meyer supermarkets at two hundred stores.

[00:43:45] And, we're getting all this kind of interesting data, but one of the most interesting pieces of data to me is like, I can actually price this on a cost per click basis. If clicking on a product is the same as picking up a product in store. And it's one third that of Facebook. And it's like, oh, well, if media buyers start looking at this and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean one third?

[00:44:04] Like maybe we need to do a lot more of this. Right. But until you start putting it into terms that people like $8 CPM, $20 CPM dollars CPM, a couple who cares about a CPM, did it, did people take the action? And that's what people need to see to really open this up. And that's kind of the hope of IOT. 

[00:44:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:44:23] I think I would add to what Trevor said that really what we're looking at here is, is it an awareness issue we're trying to address with media in the store or is it more an impact on conversion? And I think Trevor, you gave some really good examples there where, if you're just, popping up that Maybelline message, that's just trying to get awareness, right? That's trying to get your attention to say, Hey, I'm here. But if we think about the customer journey, what particular customer went through that they got to this store, especially where we are now, we know that those customer journeys have changed because of the pandemic.

[00:44:53] We know that more often than not now they're starting as a digital journey and ending up in the store, ultimately converting. So if we take that as our premise and to Trevor's point, what value is it to have content that shows up in some form of media in the store, that's just designed to get your attention?

[00:45:13] And just get you to notice. I already know it's there but if I came to the store, then in this example, my journey has brought me here because there's some reason I wasn't ready to make this purchase. When I started researching it online, I want to see it. I want to touch it. I want to see, I might want to compare it to other products in the same category that I know the store might have five different options of.

[00:45:34] And because of that, if suddenly now I see some additional added value content that gives me meaningful information about the product and that's leading into a conversion. And to Trevor's point, I agree completely with this. Now it's measurable. Now I know that that media had an impact because if I know that this is in front of a display that has multiple products and there's sensors that tell me exactly which product the customer picked up and I displayed some form of content.

[00:45:59] And then later I know that product was purchased by this customer. I can map that direct impact and that's to me as much more meaningful than, than the traditional, Hey, look at me. I'm here kind of promotional material.

[00:46:11] Casey Golden: A hundred percent. I mean, I went to Ikea last weekend and there was a huge screen in front of the staircase on the second floor. And it was an ad. And obviously I'm looking for something because I'm walking up to the screen. I'm like, okay, nothing happens when you touch it. It was an ad for Ikea, not a product, but Ikea I'm like, I'm already here.

[00:46:36] Can you show me a map? And that adds value. Do anything, something that adds value to my journey because obviously I've already made it into Ikea. So I don't need an advertisement that shopping at Ikea is great. 

[00:46:49] Ricardo Belmar: You need something much more specific. Yeah. 

[00:46:52] Casey Golden: But it would have been nice to see something else. Maybe even something that was upstairs since I'm at the bottom of the staircase.

[00:47:01] Trevor Sumner: Yeah. I mean, the way I think about shopping is it about, it's fundamentally about connecting people and products and stores and departments are all kind of like abstractions and collections of this idea, but really what needs to happen is understand the interactions at a people and products level and, you talk about the journey starting online.

[00:47:20] It's like, part of it is because that's the first measurable place, right? I think there's plenty of interactions of people walking. If you've walked down a supermarket aisle, you've probably seen a hundred thousand products in the cleaning goods category and you don't even register which ones you've kind of, like subconsciously you do, but , it's not measurable.

[00:47:42] And so, you gotta be able to measure. Measure what people are interacting with. And so that's why fundamentally like at perch, we're really focused on that being the really centered the universe. Like those, those people product connection.

[00:47:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. I'll all good points out. Shish did you have something you wanted to add on this one.

[00:47:59] Shish Shridhar: I can thank the, you know, the way that all the systems across the store are going is the becoming in a connected systems. So the sensors really detecting behavioral information within the store and combining it with your behavioral data, if that is available outside, online, and then making recommendations and real time just-in-time is really the direction we're going.

[00:48:25] And that's where the, the signage within the store kind of interacts and works in tandem with the sensors and the data and this combined with inference models. So when we kind of combine the data, there'll be a collecting from external sources, the sensors that is collecting behavioral data within the store and.

[00:48:50] Applying AI models to it, to be able to determine in time, what is the most relevant and personalized messaging that can be delivered to you? I think that's the direction we are really coming with, but that combination of iOT and AI. 

[00:49:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's also a good point that that there's data to be acting on in near real-time based on the situation.

[00:49:11] And I think Casey's example Ikea was a good one where if you were, if you had a system that was taking in that data in the moment, then that's allowing you to make real time decisions on how to adjust the media offered to that customer for, for the particular scenario that they're in. And That to me is a pretty good step in the right direction for digital signage in particular.

[00:49:34] I know plenty of older digital signage systems where the, it lacks this sort of intelligence and everything was pre-programmed, but pre-programmed for sort of a default environment where you did really take into account how that customer's visit is changing while they're there. And that's something that I think, you know, to, to your point, you know, if you have the right sensors, the right even if it could be computer vision based, it could just be an IOT sensor, you have the right technology components there.

[00:49:59] You can act on the data in a more intelligent way.

[00:50:01] Jamie Tenser: And just let me say, thank you for addressing my ideas. I have to sign off because they have something coming, but this is one of the most timely conversations I've been able to listen to. About retail innovation in a long time. I appreciate it. If in my hat to you all, thank you. 

[00:50:18] Ricardo Belmar: Any other questions from the audience at this time,

[00:50:21] if not, I'm going to turn to my fellow speakers today. Casey, any final thoughts 

[00:50:26] Casey Golden: final thoughts is just keep it going every single step forward and new piece of technology implemented, failed or successful as a step forward. 

[00:50:37] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Excellent Any final thoughts? 

[00:50:39] Shish Shridhar: Yeah, the right now we're seeing a lot of these solutions in silos. So the IOT and the AI and 5g, all of them coming together.

[00:50:47] But I think what we are going towards is them becoming an entire ecosystem that integrates and does intertwines with each other communicating information one to the other. I think that's the direction we're going in. And that's my big takeaway. 

[00:51:02] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I agree with that. I think you're absolutely spot on, on that one that is typically, I think happens right in the, in the adoption cycle with these new technologies, you see them in very unique, specific use cases in silos.

[00:51:14] And then when they start integrating with other new technologies, you really start to see the magic. Trevor, any final thoughts. 

[00:51:19] Trevor Sumner: Yeah, the only final thought I'd have I was going to say something cheesy. Like there is an I, an IOT, but but what's really, I think interesting to me is, is we're going to start to learn what actually really happens in retail stores.

[00:51:31] And the reality is we don't know, and we have lots of theories, like like in planagram design, there's this notion that you want to put your products at eye level, because eye level is buy level, but you say, and we don't even know if it's true. The answer is it's sometimes true and we're actually starting to get data to show when it is true when it's not true.

[00:51:49] And it's just suddenly people who've been doing planograms their entire life for like their entire careers. It's like this can't be right. And I'm like, yeah, it's right. It's just like, well, that changes everything. Right. And I think when we get this, these types of sensor technologies and this insights into what actually happens, what actually drives customer behaviors, how customers, actually get impressions or products before they go online. And what is the importance of that and the attribution to the sales cycle? I there's just so much that's going to change. And I think, the people who embrace data and think about data and share data with their partners, if you're a retailer sharing that data with your brand partners, they will spend more with you.

[00:52:30] Your customers will spend more with you. You'll become a more valuable platform. And all of this becomes just kind of this reinforcing cycle. And, there's people investing very heavily in this and it's coming and it's exciting. So I'm going to leave into the weekend. Excited 

[00:52:50] Ricardo Belmar: here, here to that.

[00:52:51] I'm with you on that one, Trevor. I think we are absolutely going to start to learn significant new insights from data gathered in store that, that you're right. We've always made assumptions as an industry. We've. I had expected behaviors that we think we know when all we ever had to look at was a final sales data from the point of sale.

[00:53:11] And compared to the mountains of information we get on e-commerce and online, I think you're, you're spot on, on that one. We're going to, as each of these technologies gets adopted, we're going to find out some truly meaningful differences of what happens with customers in store that hopefully won't be too shocking, but hopefully we'll just validate a lot of things, but I'm sure there's going to be an equal amount of new things we see that are, are very unexpected that we're going to be able to take advantage of. 

[00:53:38] The risk to getting left behind is, is significant. I think at this point, and hopefully every retailer has either learned a lesson for themselves or observed it from others during the pandemic. And as we come out that the need for innovation is greater than ever because consumers are coming back to stores.

[00:53:54] So, on that note we'll go ahead and thank everyone for sticking through the session with us. I hope you enjoyed today's discussion on future digital transformation, innovation, particularly around 5g IOT and computer vision. Thanks everyone. And have a great weekend coming up here. 

[00:54:11] Recap Discussion

[00:54:11] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome back everyone. I hope you enjoyed our deep dive into computer vision, IOT, and 5G. 

[00:54:23] Casey Golden: Shish and Trevor are just phenomenal. I'm so lucky to actually be standing in the same room with them at Shop Talk. 

[00:54:29] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it was 

[00:54:32] retail's big reunion. Yup. 

[00:54:34] Casey Golden: we ever going to really have five G

[00:54:37] Ricardo Belmar: You mean other than a neat little symbol on your phone 

[00:54:40] Casey Golden: yeah.

[00:54:41] Ricardo Belmar: that it'll actually do something for us? Yeah you know, I guess it's coming. It's coming. I mean, you know, we had some good ideas come up in the discussion there. Trevor and Shish brought up some good, good thoughts there on 5g. I have to admit when, during, I'll say peak hype over that, I remember hearing people talking about how retailers are just going to totally dismantle all their, all their store networks and just put everything on 5g. And I thought, you know, I'm not so sure about that. I think we're looking in the wrong place. And I think it's interesting that all the things we talked about around 5g in the clubhouse session, they were all new things. We're not talking about converting and replacing old activities and old concepts went into stores and how we move data around the retail business. We're talking about new things and I think that's what really, really matters. 

[00:55:26] Casey Golden: So does that mean, we won't get cell service in Bloomingdale's on 59th street.

[00:55:32] Ricardo Belmar: Well, that remains to be seen. And maybe, I dunno, maybe you're making a good side argument there for better wifi, but I'm going to, I'm going to stay away from that wifi conversation. Don't get me started on, on bad retail, wifi. It's my number one, retail pet peeve is bad wifi. All right. So I'm going to put you on the spot now, Casey. I didn't warn you, but I'm doing it anyway of the three topics, 5g, IOT, and computer vision, which do you think is the most transformative for retail? 

[00:56:00] Casey Golden: Things that we can deploy now. That's what I like best.

[00:56:04] Ricardo Belmar: That's a great answer. 

[00:56:07] Casey Golden: So I'm placing my bets on computer vision. It has an incredible potential to flow through the entire organization and not just a department. I think it's completely under utilized today. And fashion is a visual industry. Commerce is visual. How do we sell our products with video media? 

[00:56:27] Ricardo Belmar: Right. 

[00:56:27] Casey Golden: video content is at an all time high adoption rate.

[00:56:31] I mean, it's finally normal. 

[00:56:33] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:56:34] Casey Golden: So I think, 

[00:56:35] Ricardo Belmar: that before. Yeah. 

[00:56:35] Casey Golden: Measuring and deciphering images and videos is still predominantly very human interpreting that. The success, what makes it a success? We're missing a lot of insights that computer vision can make a big impact. And I don't even think we know how big of an impact it can make because I just haven't seen it deployed strong enough.

[00:56:57] Ricardo Belmar: early stages yeah,. It's 

[00:56:58] still the early stages. That's true. 

[00:56:59] Casey Golden: But just even for what is it. The ability to back channel data entry and tagging alone,

[00:57:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:57:08] Casey Golden: that could be millions of additional data points on products that we've been selling for a decade.

[00:57:14] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Good point. Good point. Yeah. . It, it all, it does always come back to data, right? It comes back to getting more, more data. Knowing more about your customer. 

[00:57:21] Casey Golden: You don't get a pass. Ricardo, where are you placing your bets?

[00:57:24] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, I knew you'd ask me that. I knew you'd ask me that. So at the risk of being really cagey about this, and this may not come as a big shock, I'm also going to say it's computer vision, but more so as a means to an end, and you were kind of getting at it too. So here's what I mean. So for me, the 5g IOT, those are really enablers. They're going to enable. Yeah. Well, the thing is by either connecting them together in new ways, like we were just saying for 5g, new types of connectivity to do new things, that way, move data around or enabling a new way of gathering that data, which let's face that's what IOT is for.

[00:57:57] Right. Where every use case we always talk about now, it seems for IOT, it's all about getting a new data set that a retailer can use for whatever purpose it is. It's inventory management, supply chain, you name it, but you know, computer vision, it takes those and it kind of fuels a new experience around it. So you're not just transforming the value of the data brought in by the other two. . Kinda got into that, right at the end of the clubhouse discussion, it was turning more into a little bit of a data discussion. We had that great question from Jamie Tenser that kind of brought that up. He connected the dots to retail media which, another favorite topic of ours on the show, retail media networks, and connected that with all three of these things and for me, computer vision, it's almost like it's the glue that puts all of these things together and builds an experience around it. So to me, that's what makes it the most transformative one, because it's all about more and more data for retailers to leverage, to learn more about customers and how they engage. 

[00:58:49] Casey Golden: A hundred percent, understanding the visual world can change the way we think and how we engage with literally every aspect\. I mean, we were consumed like, what is it? Seven hours a day. People are spending online. We're looking at, I mean, it changes the way we search how we discover new products, but it's going to change what we see, why we see it, how we process it.

[00:59:11] And that frankly, it's, it's going to change the way that we do business.

[00:59:15] Ricardo Belmar: At the end of the day, that's why we picked those three topics because they really are the ones if you take them together now that they're just going to change so much about how retail is done.

[00:59:24] Casey Golden: Yeah. I mean, media is going to have a huge play with computer vision.

[00:59:28] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. I'm thinking we're going to have to do another show later. Maybe more, just specific on, maybe retail media, maybe another one on, on retail data. But there's, there's some, there's some good discussions to be had there. All, all around. 

[00:59:40] Casey Golden: Yeah. I mean, we're creating a lot of new visual experiences. And so with these new visual experiences or AR, or gosh, amount of 

[00:59:50] Ricardo Belmar: AR is another one we should do. 

[00:59:51] Casey Golden: that the amount of information that could literally be pulled in from the way that people engage in the metaverse 

[00:59:58] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, That too.

[01:00:00] I'm thinking Casey, that's the note we need to end on because if I let you keep going, you're going to create like 60 new episodes we're going to have to record in like no time to cover all this

[01:00:08] Casey Golden: I I know! 

[01:00:09] Ricardo Belmar: And be even more work for us. 

[01:00:11] Casey Golden: how lucky are we? 

[01:00:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, 

[01:00:12] Casey Golden: Yeah, it is that time back to the other work, the real work. This is all the fun.

[01:00:18] Ricardo Belmar: Right. 

[01:00:19] Casey Golden: that counts as work.

[01:00:20] Clubhouse Thank You

[01:00:20] Casey Golden: Well, before we close, I'd like to thank everyone who joined us on stage for this clubhouse sesh to talk innovation, transformation, and ask questions. A special shout out 

[01:00:30] Ricardo Belmar: a Jamie Tensor, principle VSN strategies and no stranger to the Retail Razor room on clubhouse. Thanks Jamie for that great question I mentioned earlier about tying our discussion to retail and media and how it all connects the dots between digital and physical together, which of course is a favorite topic of ours on the show.

[01:00:48] And for those who didn't catch it, one of our top 10 predictions for 2022. 

[01:00:53] Casey Golden: Thank you Jamie. So Ricardo, that's a wrap. Kind of actually , always wanted to say that.

[01:01:00] Ricardo Belmar: It is, and that brings us to a close. 

[01:01:04] Show Close

[01:01:04] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed our show, please consider giving us a five star review on apple podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Want to know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets.

[01:01:20] I'm your cohost, Casey Golden.

[01:01:21] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about us and stay connected, follow us on Twitter at caseycgolden and Ricardo_Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter at RetailRazor and on LinkedIn and on our YouTube channel for video versions of each episode and the occasional bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar. 

[01:01:39] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us 

[01:01:40] Ricardo Belmar: and remember there's never been a better time to be in retail, IF you cut through the clutter! Until next time, this is the retail razor show 

S1E5 – The Retail Avengers & The Sea of Academia

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 5, the fifth ever episode of The Retail Razor Show!

I’m your host, Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m your co-host, Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock and slayer of retail frankenstacks!

Together, we’re your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, we’ll help you cut through the clutter!

For episode 5 we’re tackling an issue that doesn’t get as much attention as it should – the role of academics and universities in the retail industry!

We have two special guests joining us. Gautham Vadakkepatt, director of the Center for Retail Transformation at George Mason University’s School for Business. Plus fan favorite, Ron Thurston, author of the book, Retail Pride – The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career.

Listen to our Clubhouse session with Gautham and Ron where we discuss how academia can change the perception of retail for students - our up-and-coming next generation of retailers! We also consider what contributions university centers can make to retail tech, particularly in the startup community as well as how research plays a role in furthering the spread of knowledge in the retail ecosystem.

You can learn more about the Center for Retail Transformation on their website. For more information about Ron’s book and his upcoming Retail in America tour, visit his website.

And big news! Our podcast has made it to the Feedspot Top 50 Retail podcasts list! We recently hit #20, so please do give us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts if you like the show to help us grow! With your help, we’ll be a Top 10 podcast soon enough! 

Check it out here: https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Join our club on Clubhouse: http://bit.ly/RRazorClub

Listen to us on Callin: https://bit.ly/RRCallin

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - ****https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - ****https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - ****https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - ****https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - ****https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S1E5 The Retail Avengers & The Sea of Academia

[00:00:20] Introduction

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. No matter what time of day you're listening. Welcome. Welcome to the retail razor show. I'm your host Ricardo Belmar a RETHINK Retail top 100 retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:35] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host Casey Golden CEO of Luxe lock and been obsessed with the customer relationship between a brand and a consumer and slaying, Frankenstacks 

[00:00:44] Ricardo Belmar: I love hearing how many Frankenstacks you've slain every time, Casey, how many since the last episode?

[00:00:49] Casey Golden: Well, we're still working on three. It does take a minute.

[00:00:52] Ricardo Belmar: Well, yeah, I guess it does take a minute. That's not bad. Considering we had a holiday break in there too. Right? So not too bad, not too bad. I wonder how many listeners would have guessed. I keep waiting to see if there are any tweets they're going to start flying out to us with everybody guessing before the next episode, how many Franken stacks get slain?

[00:01:11] So do I, or do I, anybody listening or watching on YouTube will look out for the tweet storm of guesses and we'll give you a shout out if anybody comes close to the right number.

[00:01:19] Casey Golden: So last week, Ricardo, we had a special guest dedicated to celebrating retail ROI, probably one of the most moving podcast episodes in 2021. 

[00:01:29] Ricardo Belmar: . Without a doubt, anyone that missed that one definitely go back, give it a listen. I'm sure you'll be as moved and inspired as we were. 

[00:01:35] Casey Golden: Well at this time, we've got another hot topic.

[00:01:38] Don't we? And not one, but two special guests joined us on clubhouse to talk about our super cool, but often underrated subject, how academics support retail. 

[00:01:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. This session was a long time in the making, for our listeners out there, who aren't aware I'm on the advisory council to George Mason University's Center for Retail Transformation, along with a couple of our retail Avengers team members, Jeff Roster, and Shish Shridhar.

[00:02:03] And we invited the center's director, Gautham Vadakkepatt to join the show. So we could deep dive into how academics and university programs help the retail industry and not just retailers, but the whole ecosystem.. 

[00:02:15] Casey Golden: And back with us again. Fan favorite, Ron Thurston, author of retail pride. The guide to celebrating your accidental career also joined us because this iOS is a topic near and dear to our hearts too.

[00:02:29] Ricardo Belmar: So we zeroed in on three main topics for the discussion, preparing the next generation of retailers, also known as students supporting an environment for startups now, also near and dear to our hearts and for creating, a neutral ground for industry research. 

[00:02:42] Casey Golden: There's so much ground to cover in these areas.

[00:02:45] And I can't wait to share what Gautham and Ron had to say, let's get to it. 

[00:02:49] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. So without further delay, let's listen to the retail Avengers and the sea of academia.

The Retail Avengers and the Sea of Academia on Clubhouse

[00:03:02] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome everybody to the Retail Razor room. We're talking today about what we call the sea of academia, and we're going to be taking a deep dive into the role that universities and academics play in the future of retail.

[00:03:20] We're going to focus on three areas and we'll get to that in a moment, but we have a couple of guest speakers with us this week, who I want to first let them introduce themselves. And then we'll do quick intros for the usual team and jump right in. Gautham why don't you introduce yourself first. 

[00:03:34] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Thank you Ricardo for having me.

[00:03:36] My name is Gautham Vadakkepatt. I'm the associate professor in the school of business at George Mason University and the director for the Center for Retail Transformation at George Mason. 

[00:03:46] Ricardo Belmar: Great, thank you. And then we also have a returning special guest to our room here, Ron Thurston. Ron?

[00:03:51] Ron Thurston: Sure. Thanks Ricardo.. Really happy to be here and always love any of these conversations. My name is Ron Thurston. I'm the author of retail pride and a long time retail leader. And most recently as the vice president of stores of Intermix and head of stores for several brands prior.

[00:04:08] And I spend much of my time now consulting and speaking, and really celebrating the millions of people who do the hard work and stories every day. And in education may play a part in that, which is why I was so interested in joining this conversation. 

[00:04:23] So thanks, Ricardo. 

[00:04:25] Ricardo Belmar: Great. Thanks, Ron. And moving on to our regular Retail Avengers team, I'll start with what's on my screen at least is our ghost speaker. Jeff, because I can't see you on my screen for some reason. 

[00:04:37] Jeff Roster: Hi, jeff roster. Co-host of This Week In Innovation and serve on several advisory boards. Most, most proudly the center for retail transformation with George Mason University. And I'm so happy to have my boss there, here tonight.

[00:04:49] Looking forward to hearing what he has got to say. 

[00:04:51] Ricardo Belmar: Excellent and Casey. 

[00:04:53] Casey Golden: Hi, I'm Casey Golden. I'm the founder of Luxlock retail experience platform, a former fashion exec and supply chain management tech.

[00:05:03] Ricardo Belmar: Maybe Shish is having a little bit of an issue. We'll come back to him in a minute. And I'm Ricardo Belmar, the host of the room. I created the Retail Razor Club here on Clubhouse. I'm a lead partner marketing advisor for retail at Microsoft, and also proud to be on the advisory council at George Mason University's Center for Retail Transformation as is Jeff, and also equally happy to have Gautham here to talk to us about what I think is a tremendously interesting topic that probably doesn't get as much attention as it should.

[00:05:33] I think in this industry particularly around what I'm going to introduce as our first topic for discussion here and that's how we introduce fresh talent and skills into the retail workforce and what role universities have in that. So it's not a new concept, of course, that universities have had retail programs and curriculums in the past, there are number of universities that do.

Preparing the next-gen of retailers - students!

[00:05:55] Ricardo Belmar: I claim that there's a bit of a misperception in what those programs are meant to do and that many people believe that they're really there just to produce more merchandisers and more buyers who are ultimately going to get hired perhaps by a department store brand and take on one of those roles, which at the end of the day, I think is really not what the industry is looking for from an academic environment.

[00:06:17] And I would argue that that's more a perception than it is a reality, but I'm going to, I'm going to stop there and ask Gautham to tell us about what you really think the reality of this situation is and why there is this perception.

[00:06:30] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Well, thank you, Ricardo, for giving me the chance to kick things off. Let me just quickly start by saying that, you know, the role of the university is to get students excited about a career in retail, B to kind of highlight the career opportunities that they have and C is to probably provide them with the skill sets that is most needed to manage the retail landscape as it is right now.

[00:06:58] To that extent, The job of academia is to address all three aspects, not just the last aspect of trying to create talent in a specific area and to bring them and give them skillsets. And generally, my perception to answer your question, Ricardo, is that where we have perhaps fumbled the ball slightly is that many of the students who work in retail really don't and in my class about 40% of them work in retail, don't understand what's the upward trajectory once they start working in retail, what the career paths that they have and what skills they have, and they don't have mentors to be blunt and honest, we are a minority-majority school, and I'm very proud of that fact. Many of them are first-generation students. And so they don't have people to guide them through that.

[00:07:51] Like, Hey, look, retail is a good paying job. What they see is just a store associate. Many of them start off a store associates, but they don't see that thing forward. And they don't know what skills that they need to kind of get to that next level. So I'll talk about the skills needed in a later time, but I'll pause here too.

[00:08:10] I'm sure Ron has, and others have things to add to this conversation.

[00:08:14] Ron Thurston: I would love to, to jump in, thank you, Gautham.And I had the pleasure of being a panelist on on a session that Gautham led with students. And I could not agree more with, with his statement because, when you think about the industry and whether it's you're coming to an education platform like George Mason or you are

[00:08:35] I'm coming into this from a, from a different angle or with no education at all. The opportunity that all of us have then in leadership roles is to provide that insight, to speak as loudly as possible to mentor, to find those chances, to, to share the unlimited opportunities there are available within the retail industry.

[00:08:59] And by unlimited, it's from all the different brands that you could potentially work for, the opportunities both in store from a career trajectory and to multi-store heads of stores into other corporate roles, marketing, finance, social, design, buying, the, the jobs are unlimited, but often the best candidates that come are ones that come from the store that really understand the customer and understand that the product category demand have really have a deep understanding of what's needed in the industry and have such expertise when you come from the field. And I just think we don't speak about that enough or give the language to retail teams to be able to say, this is, you know, I'm a store manager of a, of a million dollar business, and here are all the things that I do even on a small team today to run this million multimillion dollar business and the list of competencies and how that moves you forward and, and how the industry works.

[00:10:07] It's part of why we're in this situation today from a hiring perspective is because the industry doesn't see itself as one where careers are plentiful. And I know I personally love to change that in every way that we can.

[00:10:21] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks, Ron. Thanks Gautham. I think these are some good points about this. So let me ask then the question, how do we introduce the right, you know, whether it's particular courses or particular skill sets and training for that at a university level, and what's the right approach for that? Gautham you hinted at having a few thoughts around this as well.

[00:10:42] So maybe I'll turn this back to you for a moment and let you give us your thoughts on how you think that should be approached. 

[00:10:49] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yeah. I'll just give you a case study of what I experienced at my university. Right? So I, I teach a introductory class to retail management. We have 22 students out of which about 40% of them actually work in retail.

[00:11:01] When I started the course, none of them wanted to have a carer on retail. I'm not joking, not a single one of them wanted to work in retail. And what we did and I kind of went in anticipating this problem and what I did was to get various speakers. Ron was one of them. Jeff was another, we had several , speakers come and talk about their careers in retail, showcasing what they did, how you made progress up retail, what opportunities and skills that they have.

[00:11:32] And as of last week, when I asked the same students, Hey, how many of you are going to work? You still think you don't want to work in retail. All six of them who said that, Hey, I did not want to work in retail said, I would like to pursue careers in retail. I just don't know how to get there. So at least we addressed the first problem that, okay, now we know that there is interest.

[00:11:54] It's just about providing them with information and it's thanks to people, leaders in the space who come and present their viewpoint to classrooms and give them real world experiences of what retailers that addresses the talent, the first step of the talent going into retail. And then of course, providing them with the skills to succeed in retail today that that's partly on us academics to make sure that they have the skills.

[00:12:23] Right. And so, while I take the first class on retail foundations, the second class I teach is emerging technologies in retail. So that once we get them interested in retail, then I tried to provide them the skills that they need to succeed in retail today, which is not just the people skills very critical, but it's also the technology aspect that they need to be able to do the science and the art behind these two things.

[00:12:48] So that's the way, that's the approach that the center has taken to educate students at Mason on retailing. Give them an opportunity to succeed in the retail landscape today.

A student's first exposure to retail

[00:13:00] Ricardo Belmar: Let me ask you a question on that note. Two things I want to get at. Because I'm wanting to dig a little deeper into what you were saying about the component of teaching, more about emerging technologies as what I would consider a valuable enticement to someone in that program to understand more about the art of the possible and what maybe the future looks like versus what has gone in the past that they may need to learn.

[00:13:22] But one of the comments I'm seeing in the back channel is that when we think about where does that first exposure coming from to retail for a lot of students, you know, by the time they get to you, for example, they may have had a summer job working as a frontline staff in a store, and that has formed their opinion coming in as to what working in retail is like.

[00:13:44] So is part of the solution here, in one sense, What are the right programs and how do you describe it? What do you teach in that program at the university level, but then going back a few steps. And I think Ron, maybe you might have a few thoughts here. It's so critical then what that experience for that... let's assume it's a high school student, for example, who takes that first summer job at a retail store, that experience is going to define their perception of retail as an industry and as a business. So is that as important as what they might see looking forward into college programs that talk about retail, and how do you weigh the difference here? 

[00:14:21] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Ricardo, I'd love to jump in because you're, you're exactly right. And I speak about this often to say again, when you are placed in a, any kind of leadership role, assistant manager, store manager, multi-store leader, all, you know, all of us that have had those roles. It becomes your responsibility to pay that forward to wherever possible.

[00:14:45] And I love this idea of you creating an environment where young people are learning what it means to function in the workforce and that they go home until their parents, you know, what their experience was at work, and you have the opportunity to create something that's really magical through a great onboarding, you know, an interview journey and onboarding an immersion in the brand.

[00:15:10] You're learning how to sell. You're learning how a business operates back of house, front of house, visual merchandising in a cash management. You're learning all these skills and a well led store provides that opportunity for someone to say, wow, I really love doing this, which may turn into a a change of heart in a career trajectory, or may say, you know, I'd really like to learn more about this part of the industry and start to study, but I, you know, the, the data shows a variety of things, but on average, one in three, one in four first jobs in this country are in retail. And so we have the opportunity. We have the big base of people to do this well. And the kind of desperation that I think some brands find themselves in today means those people may not be getting a great first experience.

[00:16:01] And that's, that's something we could certainly improve.

[00:16:03] Ricardo Belmar: Jeff. I want to give you a chance here. Do you have some thoughts on this point? 

[00:16:07] Jeff Roster: Yeah. My first thought is I wish I could've worked for, for Ron!

[00:16:14] I started off with my dad. 

[00:16:16] Probably the toughest spot I've ever had in my entire life. And then was it another retailer and Ron, what's interesting how you said that, just how you phrased it. I mean, it was, you know, I just, the onboarding, the onboarding journey. I mean, what a, what a fantastic way to say that when I started at Mervyn's, I mean, it wasn't a journey. It was a very mechanical process and everything about that was a mechanical process. And I think the thing that was the roughest about that particular organization is the leaders, the senior leaders, didn't at least on the selection side didn't encourage their people to be successful away from under their direction .

[00:16:54] So in other words, I don't wanna, I don't wanna I don't want my junior manager to be successful because then I'm gonna have to replace that person. And that is a cancer that hopefully we get away from. Both my kids work in tech, shockingly, they work in tech and their management. I won't say the organizations, although, you know, the organization be proud of it.

[00:17:14] Their organization's leadership wants these kids to be successful. And they're rewarding their managers for making them successful, even if, even if it means moving out of their teams. And that is such a difference in, unfortunately I think how a chunk of folks in retail still operate. And that's, that's something that we, as a whole have to say, we, you can't do that.

[00:17:33] You gotta, you gotta promote, you gotta encourage, you got to let these people grow and you know, it, it's just a different mindset. So, Ron, I just want to celebrate you. I want you to be amazingly successful and I want you to carry that message far and wide, because that we have to get to that point.

[00:17:50] Gautham Vadakkepatt: If I could just echo what Jeff said. If, if there are more Ron's people who could actually create that amazing first experience, For people who get into college, that would be awesome because just frankly, in the past 10 years I've been teaching very few times have students actually come in saying that, Hey look, I've had a great experience.

[00:18:16] And so most of the effort I put in, in that first course is always towards trying to reframe what their experiences are and how Ron said it. Right? Like you can frame being a store manager, working in the store in so many different ways and so many useful skills that you develop, but they don't get to see it that way.

[00:18:38] And until we can actually change that, none of the rest of the point is difficult to address. You got to change that initial perception that people have.

[00:18:49] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And I think thank you for those compliments. That's really nice. And I'll tell you a funny side story and then I'll make a comment that there was, I was, a general manager for Banana Republic in 1996 in the Houston Galleria. And I just know that because I had moved from LA to Houston for Gap, Inc., and I was running that store and there was a young woman who was 16 at the time and who I hired, who was an absolute rock star.

[00:19:16] Her name was Sarah. And she went on to become the vice president of planning and allocation for Neiman Marcus because Texas based and through her journey we had stayed in contact. So today she's a mom of two kids and I was listening to a podcast and she was talking about me and learning those skills early in her career and kind of mentorship and inspiration.

[00:19:43] And it isn't as if I been a mentor for her for the last 20 years. But the impact that we can make early in someone's career is it's, it's like parenting. It's like every decision that you make has an influence on someone, how someone engages in the workforce. And I don't ever take that lightly. And I, I encourage others to do the same, but this is a really good example of investing in store level leadership.

[00:20:14] And we put so much emphasis in our industry on senior leadership and, how brands set the stage around culture and vision, but it is only done well and executed at the store level. And the whole thing can either be extraordinary and executed at the average store in average place. And Jeff I'm from California.

[00:20:38] So I know Mervyn's really well. And that's where I also grew up. But the idea of how does that trickle down, but what does that investment from the ground up versus top down and how we can make a huge difference and just the future of the workforce. And we are in desperate times right now, we see exactly what is happening.

[00:21:00] If we don't fix this, we are going to be in a very difficult situation. And for me, this is a fire that we have to fix right now. 

Priming students for a career in retail

[00:21:09] Ricardo Belmar: It is a crisis mode from that perspective. And what I usually talk about is it's years of neglect and just paying lip service to wanting to make conditions better creating career paths that, that are more meaningful.

[00:21:21] And it now it's all coming to the surface and, becoming a much more visible problem as workers have realized they have, other options that they can pursue. 

[00:21:29] I would argue it starts with the industry itself. Right. And I think Ron, this is some of the things that you were pointing out as well, that it has to come from within. Do you have the ability to present what are those career paths that might entice someone.

[00:21:42] Walk that path and pursue it as they go into a college setting. So I want to come back on that note then to something else Gautham that you said , back to the point you made about the emerging technologies class that you're doing, what, what are your thoughts on how broad of a retail focused program at a university need?

[00:22:01] How much breadth does it need to cover? So things like, the basics of a retail business, for example, but then also, you know, you're, you're talking about emerging technologies, which I would view as one of those more enticing things that might get people who would not consider a career in the retail industry, but maybe is very interested in one of those emerging technologies as a way to learn how that applies in this industry.

[00:22:22] But beyond that, even what are some of the other areas that you look to either introduce in your program or that you think, universities are best positioned to really enable that s 

[00:22:32] Gautham Vadakkepatt: That's a great question. So my own perspective, and look, there are lots of universities that have retail programs, right? So there's always, you got to get what I think we can be safe to say is that you got to get the fundamentals of retail, correct. Before you can build on to things, right. Which would be managing the stores, which would be managing the merchandise and so forth.

[00:22:56] And then you got to get to prepare yourself for the future, which is where the emerging technologies. So from my perspective, you need to have a combination of both typically where I see some of the programming lack is that later aspect, being able to react to those waves of destruction that are coming through or create a destruction, right.

[00:23:19] And being able to prime the students. To be ready and to be able to respond to those changes. What I always tell my students is a very simple thing. Look, retail is a sector, anything and everything that is cool and current, you can learn and apply in retail. Right? So I've always said this to my students and many of them are computer science students.

[00:23:44] They always say, Hey, I don't want to work in retail. And then a year of working with me, then they are actually working in retail. Right. And so there is something for everyone. That's the really awesome part about retail and my job as an academic and most of our academic institutions jobs is to expose students to that options, the variety of options.

[00:24:04] And today the cool thing is technology, right? And it's, it's just, it's the cool thing. And many of the, the talent deficit when it comes to that is how do you apply these technologies into re. And most of the students who have the skills and technology don't want to go into retail. So by trying to build these bridging classes, that applied technology into retail, the hope is to get them excited and to keep that pipeline going.

[00:24:29] If that makes sense. So I hope I answered the question because it's not one or the other, right. It's talk to get the fundamentals. The merchandising aspect is critical. If you are a retailer, you have to get that right. But you also have to get it right. To understand what's that future of retail look like.

[00:24:45] And that's where things like people are doing a really amazing, right. You need to know how do you apply NFT. How do you apply things like blockchain and how do you apply AI into retail? Those are things that you need to understand so that you can do better moving forward.

[00:25:00] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's a critical aspect is to really cover that wide variety of things and to kind of create an awareness that says, you know, retail is not just about one thing. You can do all of these other things in this industry as a way to really you know, get those students excited about it and interested in wanting to pursue that career path.

[00:25:18] So let's go on to another topic that I think is another significant area that universities can contribute in retail. And that's what I'm going to call community building, which is creating this environment where in addition to students and that young talent pool that you're developing, you're also connecting retailers with other parts of the ecosystem in really a neutral environment, right? It's, you know, you might be connecting other technology providers and vendors. You should be connecting startups even connecting VCs with those startups because you have this kind of neutral platform. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts around, what would you expect universities to be doing in this area where you're creating that community within the retail ecosystem?

[00:26:02] Gautham Vadakkepatt: I'll be the student and I'll listen to all the comments, because this is, 

[00:26:05] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. I'd like to hear you. Yeah. I'd like to hear your thoughts Gautham at the end. And in fact, I'm going to put Jeff on the spot and ask Jeff to start 

[00:26:12] Jeff Roster: let's see. What would I like to see? Given that retail is such a large employer and given universities are looking for connections, I would like to see universities that want to engage in retail to have to reach out to the retail industry, set up mentorship programs, set up online conversations set up a clubhouse room to bring in, you know, retail executives and invite students to come and engage.

[00:26:35] You know, all of the above, reach out to the industry and say, who wants to, you know, who wants to help transform everything? I mean, you know, Ron, Ron set it up perfectly. W w you know, it's a, what's a five alarm fire going on right now. So let's start, let's start figuring out how to fix it.

[00:26:49] Let's open up conversations. Let's, let's think about what university needs to do, you know, in 2023, not what it did in 1980 .

[00:26:56] Ricardo Belmar: That's a great point. You got a long list of good suggestions there. Ron, I'll ask you, what, what are some of your thoughts on this point? 

[00:27:02] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I agree with it all the Jeff said that and, and I think what we can do is make it even less complicated. So when we think about how we, how the industry can insert itself into the, into the education system to make it a a lunch and learn, make it a quick conversation, make it a zoom call with your class.

[00:27:26] I know the other night I was on the phone with Ricardo and Casey and then jumped onto a class at NYU of students who were studying law with a focus on retail. And interestingly enough, they had a lot of questions about how the industry actually works. How do retail executives engage with the legal community, how like good experiences I may have had how was the org how are organization set up? It's like they had almost no knowledge of the industry yet they were studying it and choosing a specialty of retail and you know, so fine. It's an hour for me. And that's an easy ask for any of us to just jump in and share our experience, share the brands, share a careers talk about the power of the industry.

[00:28:16] And I personally like would like to be asked more. And then I have a large set of peers who would say the same. It's a pleasure because when we were growing up, whether it's Jeff at Mervyn's or, you know, myself at, at Broadway department store to start, and then many years at gap, I would have loved to have heard from other people about how to navigate this industry, that no one's going to teach you how to do, you either figure it out yourself, or you have people around you that you can ask great questions. And so I think ask more and and make it easy for us to do.

[00:28:53] Ricardo Belmar: Want to introduce Mia Lupo, who just joined us on stage. I think Mia, you have some thoughts you wanted to share on this topic.

Retail Curriculum Example 

[00:28:58] Mia Lupo: Yeah, sure. Thanks Ricardo. And thanks everyone for being here. I'm gonna share my experience coming from a small liberal arts university, I graduated from Salve Regina university. It's based in Newport, Rhode Island, beautiful school. That's what everyone seems to just test has to say about it, but we do have other things besides being beautiful school.

[00:29:19] So one thing I think it depends. It's like the, it's the commitment of higher education to recognize retail is vital and relevant, which we, of course we know that, but you know, having the commitment, having retail integrated in the curriculum. So for example business is the business degrees.

[00:29:41] They're a strong arm at Salve Regina's campus. And so one of the professors doctor app grab, she does have a semester course dedicated to retail. And not only does that include, kind of the ins and outs of how retail business works, but it also includes kind of hands-on interactions with alumni who are in retail, working retail currently.

[00:30:05] And on top of that, it building upon a depends on the university's commitment to exploring retail, you know, the alumni network. I think that's a huge, under utilized, simple, easy way. For example, Ron was talking about, these meet and greets for like an hour to, talk about who they are, for alumni to talk about who they are, what they do.

[00:30:26] And so. For example, for me, I was invited to virtually visit campus and discuss, my career journey and retail, which is, will be nine years, like next year. And a lot of students I believe are curious, but it's like being able to provide those opportunities. And I think, being able to utilize our networks accordingly to, help get the word out.

[00:30:51] So that's my 2 cents on that.

[00:30:53] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks for sharing that Mia. I appreciate it. So let me pause here at this moment, Gautham you've been listening to everybody's comments so far is anything standing out to you or do you have any strong thoughts either about what everyone has suggested?

[00:31:05] Or maybe there are things that we didn't suggest yet? 

[00:31:09] Gautham Vadakkepatt: No, I love all the suggestions and it, you know, I love it, particularly both Ron and Mia had to say one Ron saying like, it's an hours commitment, right? That the simple, low lying fruit that can actually transform. I can say this personally, like I got about eight speakers in my class, and that was one small comment that one of the speakers made that literally brought one of the students to tears.

[00:31:35] And they connected, and then they had some further conversation. So it's a very limited ask, but it can have the potential to transform literally students' life. And so all these simple opportunities, the one that we have said, right. To getting people and talking to the alumni base and so forth, we're trying to do all those things.

[00:31:54] But any other thoughts to make students more excited about retail in general would be greatly appreciated. 

[00:32:02] Mia Lupo: I do have one other thing I can offer. Salve Regina, we do have a center dedicated to connecting small businesses. So for business majors, their final project for the year is to do like the business plan and they are connected with a number of small businesses or small to medium-sized businesses throughout Rhode Island.

[00:32:27] And to come up with suggestions and ideas. And I think that something like that, like a hands-on opportunity, connecting with the community is a really interesting way to, you know, kind of give them that real life experience to really fully analyze what it really takes to, be in retail and, the, the opportunity of it now, again, that's, for, a small liberal arts university.

[00:32:51] That's just, an example of a smaller scope, but, it's still all the more reason it could be something that's, very important to get students involved. I mean, plenty, plenty of colleges and universities use students, as you know, mini think tanks to, think of so many great ideas and to push their business forward.

[00:33:11] So maybe that's something that, larger retailers could invite, could invite students to new, do more projects to submit things. It could be very interesting

[00:33:21] Gautham Vadakkepatt: if I could just make one comment on that. I would love the larger retailers to do that, but I will say this on behalf of the small re, like our school does this with the small retailers and there's a lot of it and they give students a great opportunity to make their resume look different. And it also exposes them to the opportunities in retail.

[00:33:41] So that'd be a really great opportunity to have. And if there are retailers in the room, please do reach out.

[00:33:47] Ricardo Belmar: I do think that is a wonderful idea of, or any kind of project work like that, that you can connect with a retailer that just would provide so much valuable experience for the students to really understand the business and understand the impact of the problem they're trying to solve. But with that project, I think that's just a wonderful, wonderful way to go.

Retail vs Commerce - a misperception?

[00:34:06] Casey Golden: I think there's also something that I've found is the difference of perception between retail and commerce. The commerce seems to be cooler. And go figure. But what retail means to a lot of people is very different. And everybody seems to understand what commerce is whether or not it's omni-channel or bricks or clicks or, or whatever that is, whether or not it's it's travel or fashion or home goods.

[00:34:33] It's kind of just not it's not as, as, as pigeonholed by perception, I'm finding. So I do find that that might be something that is interesting. I find it, I find your program to be so impactful the way that you've, you've designed. As somebody who, I mean, I've got my second bachelor's in apparel design and merchandise planning, and it was still very much designed around the fact and marketed that I was going to be a designer.

[00:35:03] And granted, I thought I was going to be a designer till I learned production, but it was never brought up to go into the tech side to go into supply chain management, managing production was never a conversation about an ERP system. And I feel like a lot of the, the more that changes that you can be in tech and be in commerce or retail.

[00:35:26] There's a lot of other jobs out there that do pay better than what they may have that preconceived notion of. So I think it's, I think it's all very interesting as we kind of build out these new curriculums and Gautham, I think you're just doing a really great job. 

[00:35:42] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Thank you. 

[00:35:43] Ricardo Belmar: That's a really fascinating point you made there Casey about how the perception is different if you frame it in terms of commerce versus retail. And I wonder if, if there's some of that have to do with I guess you were saying right, that the production side of things, or, you know, if you're looking at fascia and it's because you're looking at the design side of it, or is it because in recent years, we've, we've had so much more build up from a media perspective of direct to consumer brands and digitally native brands that somehow that appears different to students than what they might think of as a traditional retailer.

[00:36:14] Gautham does that ever come up, but with your students, is there a variation in that perception.

[00:36:19] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Absolutely. There is don't, please don't take this the wrong way, but there is a negative perception around retail and that's why I applaud Ron for what he does in changing that initial experience. And it's, it's part of that, right? When you take that frame out of their thinking and you juxta position a different framework, they seem to have a different mindset.

[00:36:46] Very, very different mindset. And I'll say it, it is just a mindset issue because through the length of the program, what students have come to realize is that commerce and retail are the same thing, and retail and have for negative connotation. This was one of the students who actually said that they'd like, yeah, I didn't think about all these other things that you had.

[00:37:11] The speakers have highlighted as far as being retail. I was like, yeah, but I thought that was all commerce. So that's part of just the mindset mentality that is driven by past lived experiences. And this is where, those first impactful moments are crucial to ensure that the supply of talent into retail continues to be of high quality and addresses the new skills that's needed.

[00:37:37] Ricardo Belmar: Perception it's really, it's such an important point an issue to overcome, right? Because it all comes back to that perception of, is this, or is this not an interesting career path for me as a graduating student? And where is it going to lead? I want to kind of connect the dots with this on the, the question of community building, because, we're bringing up a lot of interesting facts around what makes it interesting to that student into that graduating student to stay in the, in the retail industry.

[00:38:04] So when I look at community, I'm also thinking about how the university as that kind of neutral environment. And I like to think of it as a neutral environment, because in that sense, the university doesn't have an agenda other than to educate students at this point. So it is neutral from the perspective I believe of the retailer and technology providers.

[00:38:24] If we look at this from a perspective of what if the university brought together some of those key technology providers that are doing these new emerging things for retailers and some of the startups that are coming around who are probably also looking for young talent, that they can bring into their startup organization with a fresh perspective and with an ability and understanding of what retailers need to have, because they've been through this program. What can universities do as they pull those together that not just makes it useful and enticing for the students, but then in turn makes it valuable for those organizations.

[00:39:00] You know, what's going to make it valuable for the startups to be interested in coming to this neutral environment at the university to meet the students as well as any of the other technology providers. So I want to spend a few minutes on this point and Shish, I think you've got your audio issues sorted out, right?

[00:39:15] Shish Shridhar: Yep. 

[00:39:15] Ricardo Belmar: Really curious to give you a chance to comment on this part. 

Building an ecosystem for startups

[00:39:19] Shish Shridhar: Well, so one of the areas that Gotham and I have been working on figuring out is really trying to build that ecosystem where one, I think the point that he made that that universities are really that neutral place where retailers could go to one of the challenges I find, when working for tech vendor is there is potential perception of bias there and where, there's multiple tech vendors and, and each one will come in with the buyers for their technology. And universities are in a position to kind of work across all of these tech vendors and be able to pick the best of the, startups out there and make recommendations based on that.

[00:40:08] So I kind of think from that perspective, there is a possibility for us to bring together identify what are the top innovations happening? What's the emerging technologies happening and a respective of what tech vendor they are affiliated to, to have that unbiased rating and capabilities being listed out.

[00:40:31] So that's one aspect of it. And what you pointed out is, you know students and engaging students is an important element for, for startups. And that ecosystem could be beneficial for startups as well where they could engage, collaborate with startups, with the students. The other aspect of it that Gautham and I have been talking about is really building GMU to be the place where startups could be born.

[00:41:00] One. Really reaching out to retailers to determine what are the big business challenges that retailers are trying to solve today that we don't have solutions for. And then building out potentially maybe a hackathon around that and bringing together students, bringing together startups to help address those challenges, providing the resources for that, and then building an ecosystem that will create startups, innovative startups that are trying to solve the top problems in retail.

[00:41:37] And that's again, another aspect that Gautham and I have been talking about as well. 

[00:41:42] Casey Golden: Yeah, I think that's really great. I just spoke to Northwestern. And they have a, program of, they call them company cohorts and companies come in and it's almost like a job fair at the beginning of a term. And you literally, the students go in there and they sign up for a cohort with a company and they spend the next 16 weeks working for the company as their class.

[00:42:12] I find it incredibly interesting. And the person I was speaking to mentioned that there's a huge interest in fashion and retail and retail tech and direct to consumer brands and people who want to open up their own or work in that field. But there was no brands or retailers or fashion companies that are part of the cohort.

[00:42:34] And so, you know, JP Morgan's there, Bain is there, there's, there's all these other companies, but there wasn't any brands or retailers. So I think that that's a really good way as just reaching out even and putting ourselves with the universities to, to build it so that we can also, you know, start developing that talent early and these students get a chance to participate.

[00:43:00] They even have a venture program, which I found really interesting. Ron and I both met this gal Gabby when we were in Dominican Republic , and they have a, a venture analyst team there and they work with the alumni for deal flow so that these people, these students are able to start understanding venture capital.

[00:43:23] And they're just, they're just helping startups. To get experience,

[00:43:30] you know, so I think more practical ways that, and it's, it's considered a cohort and it's a 16 week class. Just like if you were going in to taking a class for biology, but you're actually working for companies, 

[00:43:41] Ricardo Belmar: what a great experience. 

[00:43:43] Gautham Vadakkepatt: I was going to say, I love that idea. And you know, Casey to your point generally, what academics, what is common across all academia is that there is a gap, right?

[00:43:54] Like once you get into a company takes my statistics, are it takes two years to kind of bring them on board or that's the statistics that I've been provided. So doing these kinds of cohorts stuff, actually sharpens that. Right. And so they get hit the ground running. I hadn't thought about that. So it'd be wonderful to get retail involved in something like that.

[00:44:16] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think that would be a fantastic experience for everyone involved that would be producing really amazing outcomes too. I think that would be fascinating. 

[00:44:24] Casey Golden: Yeah. I mean, a lot of times these new grads, they they're not ready for the job. 

[00:44:28] Ricardo Belmar: And I think that's a great way to kind of give them that early exposure, right?

[00:44:31] Casey Golden: Yeah. Really getting that early exposure. And you know, we have a history of wooing people into the fashion industry about trips to Paris and living in New York. And we never, there's no TV show that ever mentions that you're spending, you know, nine hours a day in an Excel file. 

[00:44:55] Ricardo Belmar: I think that part gets edited out of each episode.

[00:44:59] Casey Golden: And then you don't realize how much math you. The amount of math that you do in retail would make any person's head spin that they didn't realize you could do math like that. And I think that that's, that's something that's definitely underlooked or overlooked. Right. You know, like it's heavy math.

[00:45:19] Gautham Vadakkepatt: It's true. I will support that point even to this day when I, my classes is always numbers heavy. And they're like, this is retail. I'm like, yeah, it does retail. That's what you got to do fully agree with that last 

[00:45:36] Casey Golden: No, you get marketing and go into fashion is like pretty much what is that? That, that commentary? I wouldn't have ever really learned math if it wasn't for Polo University. I started out Ralph Lauren, I got handed a $30 million business and they put me into retail math classes every Friday.

[00:45:57] So I think it, I think it's really important that students know really what's expected of these jobs and especially the senior positions on what it's going to take to get you there. And if, if you're prepared you don't have to be that coordinator for that long. 

[00:46:17] Ricardo Belmar: That's a great, great point.

[00:46:18] And also speaks to an opportunity where the retailers that don't have that kind of Polo University, they should be working with universities to create those professional programs and make them available for both, you know, any existing executives or anyone who's wants to go down that path and get to those positions and have that available to them.

[00:46:37] So they don't research it and feel like they have to do that in house, right. They have access to other education institutions that can help them with that. And then would love to see more of that happening. 

[00:46:47] I have one last topic to throw out for everyone. And I'm going to direct this one to Jeff first as who we all collectively always refer to as "the analyst."

Universities drive neutral research 

[00:46:55] Ricardo Belmar: And this point is really about how university can contribute as a, again, focusing on the neutrality aspect of it, but as a neutral research platform that, and be able to research and contribute to the different projects in that way, in a way that, you know, you can't expect other vendors or technology provider sources to do, to do things that retailers are trying to solve. So, Jeff, what's your, what are some of your thoughts on that research perspective? 

[00:47:19] Jeff Roster: Well, I mean, you got it. You got it exactly right. The only neutral platform out there is universities and could maybe make the case. They, you know, a vendor might have some influence there, but no, no one else is neutral.

[00:47:31] Literally. No one else's neutral and no one has as many scientists and engineers and want to be scientists and want to be engineers. So to me, It's just such a natural marriage. I just love, love what Casey said. What gosh, how could I, how could I get into that training program for venture? What if I could fake, like I'm a kid again?

[00:47:51] It just, it's such a logical place to go. We're all trying to figure out the next iteration of, of the consumer. And guess who's sitting, sitting, you know, in a giant sea of these consumers, it's the university who is who, who is paid to research universities. You know, it's just such a perfect venue that I don't think we in retail have really even begun to scratch the surface of.

[00:48:14] And that's why, I love what Gautham is doing now. He's stepping out and not just talking about supply chain or not just talking about merchandising, but, but really if you look at a lot of the work it's it's AI, which I'm obviously a huge fan of it's low code it's, it's blockchain, it's all of these emerging technologies that these kids are going to get exposed to.

[00:48:33] And whether they stay in retail or not, they're going to be literally working with 21st century technologies. And I just, I just think this is a fantastic opportunity for, for literally everyone involved, including the executives that'll get involved, they'll gain five X more than they'll ever give. You cannot out-give generosity.

[00:48:50] It always, it always comes back fivefold. 

[00:48:53] Casey Golden: Well, that's it. These are our customers, you know, like crazy. They are our customers. We want them about to get jobs.

[00:49:02] They are our customers. I worked at Abercrombie and Fitch back when that was super cool to do. And I was always very impressed. At the time I was there in order to get a job at corporate or move into corporate, you had to be a store manager. Unless you were like probably some very senior executive that got transferred in.

[00:49:24] Otherwise you had to be a store manager for at least one year before you could take a job at corporate. And I fought, I felt that that was such a great way to bring everybody in with. Real experience managing the stores. And they too did all of their recruiting. At high schools and colleges, they had a huge footprint on campus.

[00:49:48] I mean, I went to games like I was at football games. I was at basketball games with like five to 10 people on my staff, recruiting employees to come work at the store, but there was such a presence on campus and the brand was on, was there and coming to games and starting to make that impact. And, you know, at that every single what, two days a week, we had a minimum of 50 people wanting to interview twice a week.

[00:50:19] And there was huge amounts of people that wanted to work at the company because. You know, one of the reasons is we showed up.

[00:50:26] So I think that, you know, there's a lot of opportunity there to get involved with, with more campuses and, and get the brand presence involved with the culture so that people are aware and, and they've known for a long time and, and they got to work for the company. They got to intern for the company.

[00:50:44] And that's the beginning of brand equity. I feel in a lot of places. 

[00:50:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that becomes a much more collaborative environment and in much more inclusive that way. And I think you're absolutely right in calling it a brand equity, because it really just creates an affinity for not just that brand, but even for the industry as a whole.

[00:51:02] Gautham, I know you have a specific point of view on contributions that universities can make on the research perspective. So I wanted to hear your thoughts 

[00:51:10] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yeah, my job is correlated with my research productivity, right? Teaching is a required aspect, but I get evaluated mostly on my research.

[00:51:20] And so there is a large opportunity for universities to get involved in research that addresses industry specific problems. Right? All universities are trying to do these things, right. So it is, it is a shared responsibility. It's a shared dance. It can't be that one person comes to the table. It has to be everyone.

[00:51:41] And by that, I mean, the retailers, as well as the vendors all have to come together to do research that actually helps advance industry, but really are, we get paid to do research, right? Why not leverage us and our students, actually, many of us students crave to do research as well. And so this is a good training ground to get the future prepared for what it is, it hones their thinking ability, it hones their ability to do research.

[00:52:12] It also gives them a deeper dive into specific industries. So for me, I get most excited about the opportunity to do research and the, the possibility of the center and full disclosure, every center, and most institutions try to do. Right. The opportunity to partner with retailers or retail associations to address industry specific problems excites me.

[00:52:38] The challenge is trying to figure out how to do the dance, right? How do we how do we do the research that helps both the university as well as a retailer, while still maintaining the critical aspect that Jeff said neutrality to be the neutral ground. We don't have an option. We cannot pick sides. And so we have to be neutral and that requires more detail, more thoughtful and careful research.

[00:53:04] Ricardo Belmar: I hear what you're saying. I think you're absolutely right. And it's one of these things that's so overlooked, I think by the industry when there's so much opportunity here, because as you pointed out, one of your primary roles is to do research. And as, as every university is doing, and the students have a very big role to play in, in many cases, in that research. So it's just something that the industry and I think Jeff said this as well, just doesn't take enough advantage of and, and leveraging to really understand how they could solve so many different problems by just looking at this research. And, and again, from that neutral point of view, because the university is not doing this from a perspective that some vendors are going to be perceived as yes, we'll help you figure out that problem because we hope to sell you something at the end.

[00:53:48] And sometimes that's true. Sometimes that's not. But from the university's perspective, that's not even in anyone's head, right. It's not a goal that anyone has is just do the research to see what the outcome is. And then what can we learn from that? And how can that be applied? And that's something that would be a benefit to any retailer.

[00:54:04] When you look at it, what can be done in that kind of outcome? 

[00:54:07] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yeah. And if I may add, right, there's also the opportunity that each retailer or solution provider, whatever we'll house specific problems that are particular to them, right. And they might not have the bandwidth or the resources to dedicate time and effort to do it.

[00:54:23] These might not be high priority, obviously should not be high priority problems. But these could be problems that are important to their operations. And this could be another chance to partner with universities and faculty and students to kind of get those problems addressed, get some insights from there and, you know, move from there.

[00:54:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's another excellent point on the research component to this. And just for me, more, more reasons why that should be leveraged more often and in so many more ways that are just a missed opportunity and the way it's looked at today. 

Closing thoughts

[00:54:56] Ricardo Belmar: I think we could probably talk for even another hour on this topic. I think, you know, Gautham, I think I probably won the bet on that one about how much interest there would be in how long this conversation would go. But we, we were kind of curious what to everyone would want to contribute to this discussion, but I think we've actually touched on a lot of different areas.

[00:55:12] I want to give Gautham, Ron, both of you as our special guests this week. Any, any last thoughts you have before we close?

[00:55:19] Ron Thurston: Thanks. Thank you, Ricardo. It's so interesting because we all, we all can be involved in this. And I think that the conversation from the brand side to find new ways to develop and hire and train and bring people into this industry is at a point where new ideas have to come forward and, and capitalizing on some of this university partnership.

[00:55:45] Could 2022 could be the year where this actually gets much better. And that's what I'm hearing tonight is, we, some of us have had great experiences when it was really good and in some earlier years and we have to get back to that place. That's how people came into this industry. Many of us did, we have to get back there and now is the time to do that well, and it's, it's actually really exciting, as hard as it is right now.

[00:56:12] I find the opportunity to be really thrilling what the future is going to look like. So thank you for having me tonight. 

[00:56:18] Ricardo Belmar: Thank you, Ron. I think you're spot on the fact that this is a subject area where everyone has an ability to help move things forward and contribute for the better of the industry.

[00:56:29] And I think it just requires that everyone participate at the end of the day and in whatever ways those are you know, and I think universities and academics have a really great ability to help lead us on this path. Gautham, any final thoughts. 

[00:56:42] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head Ricardo and Ron.

[00:56:44] First, Ron, thank you for all the mentorship. Right? We need mentors. We need people who will step up and thanks to everyone who does that. And we need more of that. We can change the dialogue if more people step up and thank you for everyone who's doing it. The second aspect is that, the George Mason university is just one of the centers that's trying to change retail, right? There are lots of schools just connect with academia in general, and to try and make those moments, those contact points with the students to help and our faculty to help change the conversation. And it could be an hour long.

[00:57:23] Most schools, at least Mason has a program where you tell me how many hours you want to engage with our institution and we'll get you into the right type of program for that. And it could be from a research perspective, it would be from a teaching perspective, it could be from a mentorship perspective.

[00:57:42] So this is a call for anyone and everyone to kind of come support the centers, as well as all academic institutions. We're trying to change the conversation.

[00:57:52] Ricardo Belmar: thanks Gautham. I appreciate you and Ron joining us today. I think this was probably one of my favorite topics that we've done in the room and in recent memory. Kind of feel like we came to the end here with, with very significantly more positive vibe maybe then we came into it because we had so many constructive and useful suggestions that everyone offered.

[00:58:10] I'm really pleasantly surprised that we had such wonderful contributions to a topic that doesn't really get enough attention for the betterment of the retail industry. So again, I want to thank everybody for having joined us today in the Retail Razor room and everybody have a great weekend. 

Gautham Vadakkepatt Interview

[00:58:24] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome back everybody. We are fortunate to have one of our special guests with us, Gautham Vadakkepatt, director of the Center for Retail Transformation at George Mason University. 

[00:58:33] Casey Golden: Welcome to the show. Gautham, glad to have you with us today. 

[00:58:36] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Thank you for having me. 

[00:58:38] Ricardo Belmar: So Gotham one area, we didn't get a chance to dig into very much in the clubhouse session is a bit related to what Shish brought up in relation to startups.

[00:58:47] And that's building an ecosystem of technology innovation and thought leadership around retail operations, and retail tech topics that all have different things retailers are challenged with today. And in fact, you have some pretty interesting plans for the center to address those needs starting this year, don't you?. 

[00:59:05] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yeah, we do. So let me just begin by setting the stage by talking about the idea that academic centers are really neutral convening points, right? Our job is to advance the discipline and to help build new knowledge and disseminate new knowledge. And if you think about retail, the fundamentals of retail are critical for retailers to succeed, but how they get those fundamentals, how they arrive at the right mix of the fundamentals is largely predicated on technology, data and so forth. And so what we're trying to do here at the center is trying to help showcase how those elements are able to help retailers succeed and to share that knowledge with a larger audience, but providing that neutral platform. So you asked me, how are we going to do this? So first and foremost is that we're going to build a sequence of thought leadership events.

[01:00:03] So I'm happy to say that in 2022, we'll be having a five-part transforming retail webcast series, where we talk about different aspects of retail that help retailers succeed. Particularly for the first session, we're going to talk about frictionless checkout customer data with regards to how companies can utilize it to do better.

[01:00:26] And enhance the customer experience in-store experiences that retailers can kind of engage in talking about sustainable retail returns. And then finally, everyone has to talk about this these days, talk about Metaverse and how retailers can incorporate web 3.0 largely speaking into their portfolio of tools to help enable a better customer experience. So that's largely one step that we got going with regards to thought leadership and sharing knowledge that has been generated by a lot of startups. The intent of these webcast series is to bring startups in conjunction with retailers to showcase the critical problems and to provide a unifying framework, to think about these problems.

[01:01:14] The second aspect that we have intended is to kind of help to research, right? So a lot of startups want research to showcase the value of their products to showcase how they are different and where else to go. But to, in my opinion, obviously there's a bias here, but where else to go but an academic center where we are bound to be neutral, to kind of help build some of the research that supports these various entities.

[01:01:43] We have students who are eager to do research. And so this is a pairing in some ways made in heaven, like no pun intended. And we have faculty who want to engage with a lot of the startups to understand what's at the cutting edge. So we launched this brown bag series where we bring, start ups to talk to our faculty.

[01:02:07] It's a close room. Everything that happens in that room stays in that room. We discuss the problem and they walk away with ideas. It's just a one hour session, but we've been doing this for a while now, and it's been very successful. To the extent that it's allowed startups to generate ideas, understand what's been done in research before, walk away with some ideas to leverage to their own context and allows faculty to know what's going on in the retail startup space.

[01:02:37] And the last point, Ricardo that we're trying to do with regards to efforts to support the retail ecosystem. It's projects for students and trying to get startups to work with these students who eventually will work with some of these startups to get them in early, get them excited about these startups and to help them solve the problems that the startups have, go to market strategy building databases or doing analytics for the startups and are being creative problem solvers for problems that startups have. So broadly speaking, that's the three different domains in which we have efforts going in 2022 thought leadership, research, and getting students to work with these companies.

[01:03:23] Casey Golden: That's great. There's no shortage of challenges to solve in retail. 

[01:03:28] Gautham Vadakkepatt: I hope so we've been getting some good traction there with people saying, Hey, you know, help me with the go-to-market strategy or help me figure it out really what's our value proposition and the students love it. The faculty love it because now we don't have to preach.

[01:03:43] In some ways we get students to work on real projects and it helps build a CV and it helps us to showcase the relevance of what we're educating them on with real world examples.

[01:03:56] Ricardo Belmar: Sounds like such a great set of activities. 

[01:03:58] I remember a little bit about that in the clubhouse session too. And with different ways you get students to engage. I'm sure that goes a long way too, towards getting the students to understand why they might want to go into the retail industry. Because they're seeing it from that technology angle that I think so often we don't see , other places just don't put an emphasis on that.

[01:04:16] I think that's just a great uniqueness to what you're doing to really bring a different perspective for the students. So they get a much broader view of what's happening in the industry.

[01:04:24] Casey Golden: Yeah. It is its own animal. You know, you can go to school for marketing or communications or, or business, but retail is really it's own segment. And it's not really something that you go and get a degree in. So I think it's great being able to open that up and, and expose what types of opportunities are available because it's very diverse.

[01:04:48] There's so many different pieces that they can build a career from that they didn't even know that it existed as a job. So Gautham given all of these amazing activities and resources that you've planned at the center, can you tell us more about the objectives and mission and how you see it differentiating from other universities.

[01:05:06] Gautham Vadakkepatt: So, there are a lot of centers that focus on retail and the objective is to have all the centers have the same unifying objective, which is to support retail and to provide talent to that retail ecosystem. And everyone has, their own unique take to it where our take is that retail is transforming .

[01:05:27] The way things are being executed in retail is changing. And it's mostly driven by innovation and understanding the changing needs of customers. And to do that, the center believes that there are four pillars. And that's customer analytics and data insights. It's technology, it's rethinking the supply chain.

[01:05:51] And we came over these four pillars prior to COVID. So let me just be clear on that. It's to rethink the supply chain so that we are more efficient and allows the supply chain to deliver growth, which is a primary objective of the supply chain. And the last aspect is to get the talent equipped with what the retailers need.

[01:06:11] And so those are our four pillars. And so we try as a center, to be the center that is the foremost academic institution that leads the transformation in retail. And we build off of these pillars of innovation and changing customer needs, which require the retailers to do the fundamentals of retail very well.

[01:06:31] But those fundamentals are delivered on the wings of technology and the wings of data on the wings of reimagining certain fundamentals of retail, like supply chain and the sustainability aspect. And of course the talent, right. We are living in a world where retailers are finding it super hard to find talent.

[01:06:50] And we're trying to showcase that. So that's broadly speaking the objectives of the center and our focus largely is on where we you'd ask Casey, how we differ from other centers. So we stated this publicly many, a time.

[01:07:07] We are focused on startups in a small and medium retail, which is probably 90% of all retail. The transformation that's facing retail applies to all retailers. The big companies can manage those transitions well, lot of the unique aspects are being generated by the startups. And so what we're trying to do is to try and help the startups, showcase what they're doing and bring it to light to the smallest retailers, and we're not talking just about the mom and pop stores. You're talking about tier two, tier three. I'm trying to expose them to all the innovation that's happening in retail and retail tech is one of the fastest growing sectors, startups, tech sectors right now. And there's a whole other,

[01:07:58] I shouldn't be preaching to the choir here.

[01:08:02] Oh, to keep abreast of the number of startups in the space and the unique aspects that we're doing. And we're just trying to use that platform that an academic institution has to showcase like, Hey, these are the amazing things the guys are doing and letting the retailers pick what solution matters to them.

[01:08:22] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's such a great emphasis that you have in that area is I, have not seen that before in other centers or other associations. There's a lot of attention given to all the large retailers, who, of course they have the resources typically to investigate these different technologies to support startups themselves directly, but it leaves a big gap.

[01:08:41] You know, from tier two, tier three, all the way down to the small mom and pop shops or so many retailers that are maybe five stores, right. That's not 500 and they're kind of left out. And I think so often in other industries anyway, that when you see new technologies come out, that technology tends to be an equalizer.

[01:08:59] It tends to equalize the capability for the smaller operators versus the larger ones, but in retail, I think it's been a little bit more challenging because the technology gets I don't want to say complicated because a lot of technologies, the better ones try to simplify things, but just being able to deploy is a skill in and of itself. And being able to scale a deployment across a retail chain is another skill that you have to have, and not every retailer is as skilled at that as they could be and they need help. And I think the kind of resources and activities that you're leading with the center are really going to go a long way to help that segment of retail 

[01:09:33] Gautham Vadakkepatt: and Ricardo, it's not just about deployment, right?

[01:09:36] Like for, in many cases with many retailers, it's even discovery, that's rough, the solutions, 

[01:09:42] right?

[01:09:42] It stops. If you think about the one. 

[01:09:44] It starts with that discovery. And we have a problem with regards to discovering what there are solutions. There is a right solution for the retailer. Discovering those solutions is the first step before you can move them down.

[01:10:00] And I also want to say one thing is that not all academic centers have the same goal, which is to support the retail ecosystem. And we are all partners in that crime of trying to get students to get into retail and actually be excited about what retail has to offer. And to that, they're all, we all support each other efforts and we learn from each other as best practices and so forth.

[01:10:26] Ricardo Belmar: That, of course that makes complete sense. And again, going back to, I think the first topic we had in the clubhouse session, which was how do you get students excited about the industry, where, especially when there's so much happening in retail and particularly in retail tech, which is what we're all focused on in this show.

[01:10:43] So yeah, it just makes all the sense in the world to be doing. So Gautham, this has been great having you join us here on the podcast and our, we could keep talking about these subjects for hours as I think you and I often do outside of this forum. So we will absolutely have to ask you to come back and visit us.

[01:10:59] Gautham Vadakkepatt: I would love that opportunity. Thank you for having me. And yes, I could talk forever on this issue. When I, when I started on this journey, you know, I hadn't learned the depth and breadth of retail that I have now become a big evangelist of the role of retail startups and what they bring to the whole startup ecosystem in itself.

[01:11:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. 

[01:11:21] Absolutely. 

[01:11:22] Casey Golden: Thank you for all your support on my end as well. 

[01:11:24] Ricardo Belmar: So before we wrap up Gautham, can you tell our listeners how they can reach out to you if they're interested in getting involved with the center's programs or how they can follow you and the centers activities? 

[01:11:35] Gautham Vadakkepatt: Yes. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Gautham Vadakkepatt importantly for the center we'll be launching our new website and it's fairly easy to follow GMU retail.org will be the website. We also have a LinkedIn page. If you type in GMU center for retail transformation you should be able to find us there.

[01:11:58] Give us a follow if you are. Thank you for giving me this last second opportunity, but if any of you. Be at a startup be a small retailer or the bigger retailers or solution providers. If you want engage with the center, please feel free to reach out. We have a lot of opportunities to connect. We see our role as being a connector and trying to help build bridges.

[01:12:19] And so if anyone wants to be in involved with the center, feel free to reach out. 

Clubhouse Thank You

[01:12:27] Casey Golden: We'd like to take a moment to just thank everyone who joined us on stage for this clubhouse sash and ask Ron and Gautham questions and a special shout out 

[01:12:38] Ricardo Belmar: to Mia Lupo, no stranger to the retail razor room on clubhouse. Thank you Mia for sharing your nine years of retail experience with us and with our guest speakers.

[01:12:46] Casey Golden: Thank you Mia. So Ricardo, that's a wrap . 

[01:12:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, indeed. It is. Thank you everyone for listening. 

Show Close

[01:12:54] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed the show, please consider giving us a five-star rating and review on apple podcast. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. So you don't miss a minute. Want to know more about what we talked about? Take a look at our show notes for handy links and more deets.

[01:13:11] I'm your cohost Casey Golden. 

[01:13:12] Ricardo Belmar: If you'd like to connect with us, follow us on Twitter at Casey C golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter at RetailRazor, on LinkedIn, and on our YouTube channel for video versions of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[01:13:29] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[01:13:34] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter. Until next time, this is the retail razor show!

S4:E6 Unlocking Generative AI for the Retail C-Suite with Peter Cohan

In this episode of The Retail Razor Show, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden explore the transformative potential of generative AI in retail, featuring insights from Peter Cohan, an associate professor, strategy consultant, startup investor, book author, columnist and AI expert. The discussion covers AI's evolution compared to the dot-com era, the influence of large tech companies, and the substantial growth opportunities AI presents for retailers. Key topics include the contrast between the relay vs. rugby approaches to AI transformation, the crucial role of CEOs in AI adoption, and the importance of a quality data foundation for AI inputs. The episode highlights strategic investment, customer-centric innovations, and practical examples of successful AI implementations, guiding C-suite listeners on how to embrace AI as a long-term investment for unlocking new revenue streams versus a short-term quick fix.

About Peter Cohan:

Peter is an Associate Professor of Management Practice at Babson College, he is the faculty lead for the core undergraduate strategy course and has created popular electives on Startup Cities and Scaling Strategy. His strategy consulting firm has completed over 150 projects to help companies identify, evaluate, and profit from growth opportunities created by changing technology. He has invested in seven startups, three of which were sold for over $2 billion and one of which, SoFi, went public in 2021 at an $18 billion valuation. He is the author of 17 books, most recently "Brain Rush: How to Invest and Compete in the Real World of Generative AI" and he is a senior contributor at Forbes and a contributor at Inc. RETHINK Retail named him a Top Retail Expert every year between 2021 and 2024 and chose him as a Top AI Leader for 2024 this year.

Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://retailrazor.substack.com

Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

00:00 Show Intro

02:49 Meet Our Guest: Peter Cohan

04:21   Unlocking Generative AI for the Retail C-Suite

05:40 Peter Cohan's Background and Journey

10:25 Impact of Generative AI in Retail

12:48 Challenges and Risks of AI in Customer Service

16:34 Strategies for Embracing AI in Retail

17:21 Relay Race vs. Rugby Approach in Product Development

28:48 Best Practices for AI Implementation

32:43 Driving Company Growth: The CEO's Role

35:15 The Value Pyramid Framework

39:36 AI's Role in Retail Innovation

47:49 Challenges and Opportunities with AI Data

53:19 Entrepreneurial Insights and Cognitive Hunger

57:18 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

58:56 Show Close

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar is an NRF Top Retail Voices for 2025 and a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Expert from 2021 – 2024. Thinkers 360has named him a Top 10 Retail Thought Leader, Top 50 Management Thought Leader, Top 100 Digital Transformation Thought Leader, and a Top Digital Voice for 2024. He is an advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and is the director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, is the CEO of Luxlock, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Expert for 2023 and 2024, and Retail Cloud Alliance advisory council member. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, and E-Motive from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

S1E9 – Retail Transformers – April Sabral

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 9 of The Retail Razor Show!

With this episode we introduce a new series– Retail Transformers! Who are the people in retail changing how we look at the business, how we're operating, redefining and reimaging what retail is? These individuals are transformers in every sense – they truly are more than meets the eye!

In this episode we meet April Sabral, CEO of RetailU, online training for the next generation of retail leaders, and author of the book, The Positive Effect, A Retail Leader’s Guide To Changing The World. April shares with us her retail journey, what she has learned about leadership along the way, and how she applies that to train the next generation of retail leaders. If you’re working with aspiring retail leaders, want to better understand what makes a great retail leader, or just want to learn how to grow your retail career to the net level – this episode is for you!

Have you heard! Our podcast is staying strong on the Feedspot Top 60 Retail podcasts list! We’re currently at #22, so please give us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts if you like the show! With your help, we’ll be on our way to a Top 20 spot! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts:

I’m Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay franken-stacks!

Together, we’re your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, we’ll help you cut through the clutter!

The Retail Razor Show

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Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Join our club on Clubhouse: http://bit.ly/RRazorClub

Listen to us on Callin: https://bit.ly/RRCallin

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S1E9 Retail Transformers - April Sabral

[00:00:00]

[00:00:20] Introduction

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello! Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening, whatever time of day you're listening. Welcome. Welcome to season one episode nine of the retail razor show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar a RETHINK Retail top retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:35] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host Casey Golden CEO of Luxlock Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay Frank and stacks.

[00:00:49] Ricardo Belmar: So Casey, this is a truly momentous episode for us. We finally are launching our Retail Transformers series.

[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Yeah. I'm actually quite thrilled. We've been talking about how there are so many people in retail right now that are really changing how we look at the business, how we're operating and what we need to do next and so much more. This is such an exciting time for this industry and they are true transformers In every sense.

[00:01:18] Ricardo Belmar: In fact one might say they are truly more than meets the eye.

[00:01:22] Casey Golden: that was smooth.

[00:01:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I'm pretty skilled at that, actually. So you can give me, give me any small moment to work in a cool eighties, pop culture reference. I am all in on that.

[00:01:29] Casey Golden: I'm sure the appreciation will make it into the comments. Anyway, let's talk about our amazing first interviewee. April Sabral

[00:01:37] Ricardo Belmar: April is absolutely amazing. As listeners will find out in this episode, she's really transforming how retail leadership is evolving. April's got such a wonderful perspective on how retail teams should be managed, how people should be treated and so much to say about what leadership looks like for a modern retailer.

[00:01:55] Casey Golden: A hundred percent. I mean, I really can't think of a more important conversation to be having right now. So let's cut through the clutter and get right to the interview. So kickback or keep your eyes on the road and listen to our session with April Sabral, founder and CEO of Retail U online leadership training for retail managers and author of the book, the positive effect, retail leaders guide to changing the world.

[00:02:19]

[00:02:19] April Sabral Interview

[00:02:19] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome to the show April. It's great to have you here. We've been planning for this for some time and so glad to finally make it happen!

[00:02:29] April Sabral: Thanks. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:31] Casey Golden: April, absolute pleasure. Just to get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're focused on now? What brought you to this, this moment? And how do you see your role transforming leadership in retail?

[00:02:44] April Sabral: Yeah. So I'm the founder and CEO of retail U which is an online leadership learning platform for field operators. After having a 30 year career in retail, working through the stores, all the different ranks, all the way up to vice president just really found an opportunity to build affordable leadership development.

[00:03:03] And what I'm focused on now is really helping leaders transform their leadership in this new era of empathy and compassion and connecting with people. And so I've been focused on you know, getting retail U out there , along with the book that I just wrote introducing a new leadership methodology that I've used over my 30 year career.

[00:03:23] And so I'm coaching and teaching that hour and doing a lot of leadership development coaching right now.

[00:03:28] Casey Golden: That's great. I actually ordered it. I haven't read it yet. But we brought it over to like our head of talent and really super excited to, to read.

[00:03:38] April Sabral: Oh, amazing. Thank you.

[00:03:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I've been in the midst of reading it myself and I've been thoroughly enjoying it. I'm finding a lot of really interesting nuggets on I'm going to be popping a few of those in, as we, as we go to get more details from you because you've had such a really interesting journey.

[00:03:55] I find just from reading the experience you've described in the book from all the various retail roles that you've had you know, like you said, just starting from, front lines in the store all the way to being VP and heading up stores. You mentioned a number of really valuable lessons that you learned along the way and particularly around managing people in retail. So I'd really love for you to kind of tell us a little bit about some of those , and maybe think of what kind of advice would you give to other retail employees on, on how to build their retail career and really growing into one of those retail management roles.

[00:04:26] April Sabral: well, I think that, you know, along the way certainly when I started off in retail, I didn't think of it as a career choice. Right. I share a lot about that in the book. It was like a part-time job that I got when I

[00:04:37] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:04:38] April Sabral: moving out of home. And it just, you know, Started providing me a way to, to pay for my bills and look after myself when I was younger.

[00:04:46] And so, however, you know, I think that I was very fortunate because I worked for a huge brands back in the day at pivotal times for them when they were entering new markets. For example, like when Starbucks came to the UK and when the gap came to the UK, I happened to be there. And I was a part. That expunction and then moving to the U S with Starbucks and then to Canada with Banana Republic.

[00:05:08] So I do think I had great opportunities along the way. The one thing I would say about retail, or if you're a manager or if you're not a manager and you're just a part-time sales person to really see it as an opportunity to build your people skills because your people skills are life skills, Right.

[00:05:24] And retail, we teach people life skills, like how to problem solve, how to have confidence in speaking to people how to sell something even like, you know, in life, you've got to sell yourself every single day, whether you're in an, a job or whether you're an entrepreneur. So I think that there's just so many skills that you learn. And my journey along the way, I was fortunate, like I said, I worked for those mega brands back in the day and they had really good leadership development programs back then, they were really invested in their people.

[00:05:50] This was before e-comm came about. So it was a really big focus on talent. And so, what, I've learned along the way is that if you continue to grow, develop your skills and invest in yourself, then you will have a great career and you can move up the ranks and get compensated for it. You know, frontline employees always see it as a job as like, it's not a great career choice because I think they're underpaid.

[00:06:11] But once you start moving into manager multi-site and moving up, everything changes. So that's why I think it's a great career choice. And I also think that it's a huge career because you can move around the world with it. You know, it employs, millions of people. So I think we need to start looking at it a little bit differently.

[00:06:28] And so I would say, work hard sign up for things. If there's different projects that you can get on or transformation happening within your organization, say, yes, I did that a lot. Like I moved around a lot. I was willing to take risks and move to different countries even, or different districts to just take on projects and get myself known.

[00:06:49] And I was always really good with people. And so that just really helped me. I was one of the easiest people to manage, I would say, and the easiest, really easy person to get along with. And just, and that helped me deliver the results that they were asking of me. And so every time I moved up and took on more responsibility, the results would just keep growing.

[00:07:07] So yeah, you have to deliver results, but you have to do that through a team of people.

[00:07:12] Casey Golden: traditionally, it's pretty hard to make the jump from being on the floor and read. Into corporate, any advice there on how to make that.

[00:07:24] April Sabral: Yeah.

[00:07:24] There's not a lot of us that have done that, me and Ron, talk about that all the time and, and how we can help that in our industry continue to build that because there's so many great people in the field. I think it's about building those relationships in advance. Like in the book, I talk about an experience when I first got promoted from a district supervisor into a director role.

[00:07:45] So that was that first experience of going from like field leadership, into working with corporate partners. And I had a lot of feedback given to me that wasn't super positive at the time. I had. Sells re results for the awards for the, you know, the four years leading up to that. So people saw me as very highly competitive and the team that I was going to assume didn't really want to work for me.

[00:08:08] So I had to take some humble pie, take that feedback on and then realize that the relationships that I had, weren't just about the relationships with the people that report into me, but really the relationships that I worked alongside with. And so if you want to get promoted and you want to be successful and work with your corporate partners, you need to have those relationships in advance so that you can influence the things you need to influence.

[00:08:33] And you have the backing because now it's not just about your team in the field, you have this huge team of support in the office. But if you don't know how to build those relationships, guess what? They're not going to help you. They don't know what your job is. So I think just building those relationships and networking with them, just like you would on LinkedIn, right?

[00:08:51] Like network with your corporate partners and think about collaboration and, and don't think like, what are they doing and why are they rolling out this out to us and complain about them? Instead see yourself as a conduit to kind of help them help you and I think that's something that we really need to teach and build that bridge between the field and the head office.

[00:09:10] Ricardo Belmar: of the things I noticed you, you mentioned quite a bit in the book that maybe gets lost sometimes in this industry is that a lot of the roles are defined as sort of a sales leadership role, but you point out many times in the book that you really need to see yourself as a people leader, not just a sales.

[00:09:27] And I guess just based on what you just said, right? A lot of it has to do with how you interact with the people you're leading and the teams that are in the field. And as well as everyone around you, not just focusing on those sales performance numbers.

[00:09:41] April Sabral: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's like, you know, we build relationships with our customers, right? Why do we do that? Because we want to get money out of them. And we want to have them coming back to us and feel good about the experience. And so it is sales is a relationship driven business. So if you want to sell your employees and get them to do something for you for the organization, well guess what, then you need to have a really strong relationship with them because every employee wants to feel three things from their boss that they're cared for, that they can trust them and that they they're going to help them do the job better. And that only comes from a relationship. So, I'm a very results driven leader. And so I had to learn to cook. You know, yes, the results really matter, but the results is an outcome of how you're leading your team. at the end of the day, people get up and come to work every day, wanting to do a good job and for the person that they work for. And if they don't like the person, they work for good luck getting results out of them. It's just not going to happen. You think about that in your own life, right?

[00:10:41] Every time you've had a boss and you've loved them, you're like, oh, I love going to work. I want to do a good job. And when you have somebody that's just a pain. It just can control your life. So it really is about positive relationships. I can't say that enough.

[00:10:55] Casey Golden: I always think of do I want this person to win? Right? Because we all work together so much. And it's so much of a back and forth and it's just like, you know, I want them to want me to win. But then at the same time, you want to work with people who you believe in and you want to win and you genuinely will build that relationship and be like, how can I help you?

[00:11:13] April Sabral: Yeah. And it's funny, right? Because like, when we talk about retail to other people, the let's say I'm in a dinner party or I'm somewhere, and there's not a lot of retail folks. They'd be like, well, you know, you just sell clothes, right. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. We drive millions of dollars and like lead thousands of people and make an impact on their life every day.

[00:11:33] Right. So I think there's a misperception about what we do. And if you ask anybody in the field. Nine times out of 10, why they love what they do in retail, especially at a leadership level. They always say it's the development of people because coaching really exists in the field teams because we're always coaching for performance.

[00:11:53] Just like, a basketball coach, who's coaching his team on the, on the court. It's the same idea. So I think. We're very fortunate in the fact that coaching really does exist and people already passionate about, and that's why I say it's not just a sales business, right? It's a people business.

[00:12:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I was probably one of the most hidden things I think in retail, right? It's this aspect of coaching in the field, that has always been there. I just. Talk about it enough because we always focus so much on the selling,

[00:12:21] April Sabral: a hundred percent. But if you think about sales floor leadership, most companies have flow leadership, cell phone leadership programs, and it's all about coaching

[00:12:30] Ricardo Belmar: That's right.

[00:12:31] April Sabral: in the moment.

[00:12:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:12:36] Casey Golden: obviously a lot of the focus in this book is really about positivity. Both how you see your career goals and how you. Others in your organization, you talk about how leaders are in a position to foster creativity and imagination to develop new ideas, but you also kind of remind leaders that they don't have to act on every idea that their team presents.

[00:12:58] But they need to be acknowledged. This is an interesting point because I know that there are so many leaders that believe the opposite of this. And they, they don't have to embrace every idea. In order to recognize the contribution of those team members, how do you coach leaders to embrace this approach?

[00:13:14] Because store teams can be quite large and there can be a lot of ideas. And it's not a very formal process of write down all of your ideas from all of these stores. And then I'm going to put it in a, put it in a pivot. I mean, it is so much of just taking in all of this information. And where do you, where do you feel like some, some great recommendations for a manager today that is looking for those contributions? How would you recommend that they kind of extract that?

[00:13:50] April Sabral: I mean that's Yeah. That's, there's so many ways now, like when I was at David's tea, we had an app called nudge. Right. And so that was a way for field employees to kind of write everything down and give feedback. And at the office we could say, Like, like real time, because we would ask questions about things and they would provide their feedback.

[00:14:10] So I think there's lots of technology that can help with that. I think the number one thing is, like you said, that people think that they have to embrace every idea and act on every idea to make people feel acknowledged. I don't agree with that because the thing is, there'll be really great ideas floating around out there.

[00:14:27] And some of them know. That's just, you know, that just can't do that. Maybe it's like the budget's not there or you just don't have the time to do it because you can't focus on 25 things and do it well. Right? Like you can only focus on a few things and do it well. And so, I think this idea of acknowledging what people are contributing in their ideas is very important because in the book I talk about making every person feel valued on your team. And so to make somebody feel valued, they have to be seen and heard. It doesn't mean to say that you have to execute their strategy or their idea. That's not what most people are looking for.

[00:15:03] Most people are looking for just to feel like I said, seen and heard. So just acknowledging that and saying, "That's a really great idea and thank you so much, but maybe we'll park it and we'll bring it back out and we'll use it next time." And I think most people want transparency.

[00:15:20] The worst thing you can do is ask for a whole load of ideas, not use them and never acknowledged that they were given. Right. So I think that leaders just need to have managerial courage. I think it's just being transparent with your team and not feeling pressured, but one of the biggest things that I coach on is leaders having that managerial courage to be able to be transparent with their team.

[00:15:43] Nobody likes conflict and nobody likes going into a conversation where conflict could occur. But it's not it's, it's just human nature. We just don't like that. We kind of shy away from it. So they don't know how to deal with difficult conversations. Right. If you think about people and performance management, it's the same kind of idea, but it really isn't about that.

[00:16:02] It's just, just acknowledge it. Like, thank you so much for that idea and acknowledging everybody's idea, but yeah, you get 150 ideas. There's no way you're going to be able to act on them. You're going to have to pick a few that are going to work with that strategy at that time. Right.

[00:16:17] Ricardo Belmar: and you know, that reminds me of, you mentioned in the book, you, you, your formulas, so to speak for, for this successful process, you call it your act model or accept, create and teach. Right. And you also talk about leading with awareness, which I think was a really critical point and how you accomplish that can kind of walk us through that model and tell us more about, you know, the importance of leading with awareness.

[00:16:40] April Sabral: Yeah. I mean, I'm a self-development junkie, right? My whole life, I have been focused on just self development and reading self-help books and what that has done for me has made me a very self-aware person. Like I know when I've messed up. You know, every boss I've ever had, they're like, we don't need to tell you what you've not done.

[00:17:00] Right. Because you actually know before somebody else tells you because I'm very self-reflective. And so I think going back to leading people and building relationships, the more self-aware you are about how you contribute to that relationship and your communication tone connection the better result you're going to get out of people because you're going to be paying attention, being mindful, being present. . And that just comes again from my years of self-development. And so when I lead that self-awareness is really important and I filter it into this model because this is the way that I've led for over 25 years and incorporates yes, my professional coaching training, if you like.

[00:17:43] But it also incorporates that mindful piece of being present through my self development journey. So the first step. "Accept" it's about being supportive and having no judgment and assumptions on people. This is one of the hardest things for leaders to do because we all judge people, right? There's so much training out there on bias now and inclusion and our natural ways that we do make assumptions and judgements on people.

[00:18:10] And it's simple things like the way somebody looks, the way somebody dressed The way our sister treated us yesterday, like so many things that we judge people on, but when you lead a team it's really, really important that you help them feel supported and encouraged to be themselves. And all the stores that I ever visited every time I would ask a leader what makes them feel successful? It was always around when they felt they were showing up to work, being their whole self and that their boss could see them and hear them. So that's what that pillar is all around. It really teaches leaders to , look at that judgment, stop making assumptions, managing the moment and being present, and really accepting people for who they are.

[00:18:51] And then "create" Is all around being responsible and responsible with your thinking and your envisioning, because I'm a big believer in the law of cause and effect ,

[00:19:02] and manifesting things. Like I know that sounds like a little bit of a spiritual idea and a bit hokey pokey, but honestly it's like nothing is created until you think about it first, you think about a business. anything you think about this business and you have to like mindfully envision it and then you put the plan in work. Right? So create is all about how you create this into your business and thinking mindfully.

[00:19:25] I mean, I used to sit there on Monday mornings and kind of envision what I wanted my week to look like my conversations to look like. I just watched actually. The Serena Williams story over the weekend on a plane. And I was watching her father and I was like, he was totally demonstrating, create in action.

[00:19:42] Cause he was like, there was no way my kids are going to fail. They're going to be the best tennis players. And it was the way that he showed up every day. He just created that. So that's what that pillar teaches leaders. And I really think that that needs to be talked about more in business. I think entrepreneurs get it a lot.

[00:19:58] And then "teach" is really about being selfless and being a mentor and a coach. So if you take a coach approach to leadership, you'll always be passing on knowledge and you'll always be teaching people and it will make you less frustrated because. So many leaders I work with, like I told that person that and why aren't they doing it?

[00:20:16] And I'm thinking, well, did you actually coach them on their performance? And did you actually help them understand and train them? And so those are the three pillars wrapped up. And so I kind of looked at it as like, it's a way of being, that's why I say it's leading with awareness because if you can have more awareness of what your contribution is, you'll have a very highly engaged team.

[00:20:37] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think that's really spot on . I'm sure we've all been in large corporate organizations where it seemed like the upper tiers of management felt that the obligation was to reward their best performers by just deciding to turn them into managers and leaders in the organization, but never actually giving them the tools , or the methodology on how to actually lead a team.

[00:20:57] I think they kind of assume that, well, if they could manage a project, they could manage a group of people. And that's not always the case, but it's not an automatic thing. If you don't take into account all the different points you just mentioned April, I think that's a really great way to frame that

[00:21:11] April Sabral: Yeah. And like you normally in retail, it's like usually the best sales person on the sales floor that gets promoted. Right, And then all of a sudden they have like five, 10 people and it's not going so well. And then your top performer, it's not your top performer anymore

[00:21:24] Ricardo Belmar: more, Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's just the, see in the management changes to assume assumes that because they hit the numbers so well that they can automatically lead everyone else in doing the same thing.

[00:21:34] Casey Golden: Well, where are you guys working? You would get top sales and like, well, we can't take you off the floor. I'm like, let me create 20 of my me. But can't take you off the floor. You do too much in sales. No, I mean, I think that's great. I mean, we have all had great managers and we've all had learning experiences from not so great managers, but I think, I think there there's something to be said that retail is so many people's first job. And this is really like that building block of you're essentially installing work ethic and process for the first time.

[00:22:12] April Sabral: Yeah. Yeah. And also you're giving somebody, and this is another thing, right? I have a 24 year old, 24 year old daughter, and she was sharing a story with me and Ron about her first retail job and how terrible it was. Experience because of her boss. Right.

[00:22:26] And me and him were like cringing at lunch. Cause we were like, oh, this is so many people's story.

[00:22:32] And the thing is, we're trying to fuel retail with newer leaders because we need them cause bricks and mortar are not going away. And one of the big gaps now is that middle management. And so it starts off with your first job. I was. 17 when I got my first job in retail and I had a great boss. And so it sets the tone.

[00:22:52] Right. And so that, you know, it's so important, like you said, it's the first time somebody's having a first experience of having a boss and a work environment. And, we need to really take responsibility for that and help our managers for say, managers that are like 20, 21, you know, managing an 18 year old.

[00:23:09] How are they doing that? You know, like we really need to help them with that.

[00:23:13] Casey Golden: Yeah, I agree. And if that manager feels like that there is communication and there is way to move up in the company. They're less likely to push down to keep from taking, you know, cause they, they don't feel like they have. So it really gives you that position of leadership to, to inspire team. I loved like my team, like being a manager to like I had 17 year old, 16, 17 year olds.

[00:23:35] And it's just one of my favorite retail experiences, because I got to be their first boss. I still talk to these people most like 18 years later. And they're "Casey, like you inspired me to get in the fashion industry." I'm like, they're like an SVP that Nike now. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It does. It opens up that whole world of like, whatever they're doing and wherever they go, you get to be that moment in somebody's mind of their first work experience. And you get to be that first amazing boss that I've ever had, or you get to be that pain point that changes their perspective of leadership, even moving forward for years, potentially.

[00:24:22] That is your first moment.

[00:24:24] Ricardo Belmar: And it really sets that that first impression is so strong, especially when you think about the age groups we're talking about. And we had this come up in one of our previous episodes where we talked with I think Ron was in that discussion. And in fact, what a Gotham from the George Mason university retail center, and he even pointed out, or when he first asked students in one of his classes, you know, who here has a retail job.

[00:24:48] Lots of students raised their hands. Yeah, they had, they were in a retail job. And then he, when he asked them, how many of you plan on pursuing a retail career and all the hands went down because they all had a bad, first impression and most likely because of, what their experience was. And if we don't do something to change that experience, and what's going to motivate people to pursue a career in this industry

[00:25:07] Casey Golden: Yeah. So, I mean, this kind of brings us back to, you know, you might say it's the reason we're having this conversation today and why the show exists and you know, some, a lot of the motivation behind your book, we're experiencing a movement in retail around changing how frontline staff is treated both by the customer but more importantly by retailer, management teams and where they sit into an organization. I mean, we've had these conversations with Ron Thurston who we're, we've all had I mean, everybody adores him B because it does, we all have that shared experience right. Of having that first retail job that we're able to build a lot of these things off of when retailers think and talk about wanting to change these behaviors the initial why right? That, that initial why? And because my initial, why for my company was the people who I worked with on the floor. I saw that they were hurting and. I wanted to help them. And that was, that was back in 2007 and it's kept me motivated to continue trying to build this solution to make sure that retail staff has a thriving career.

[00:26:13] And I'm not even on the floor anymore. Right? I mean, we go through all of these different. Do you agree that like, maybe by seeing that transformation of how frontline workers are treated on their jobs, do you agree with, this, this whole conversation and this movement, like just really realigning that focus on making sure that that experience is a positive one.

[00:26:38] April Sabral: Oh, Yeah.

[00:26:39] a hundred percent. It should have always been a positive one. I just think that the investment in people got shifted to e-com in the last seven years. , cause that's where all the money went into, building your e-comm your channels, trying to figure out that whole customer journey.

[00:26:53] And so leave like development of teams. But it's put in polls. Like there's a lot of companies that don't have proper onboarding programs for managers right now. And so I think that has to come back around. Pay is a big thing, you know, advocating for pay and like different incentive programs because comp sales, the traditional way of looking at comp doesn't incentivize people anymore because the sales have shifted the mix of the channels where it's coming from.

[00:27:18] So I just think there's many different components that go into it. But one of the easiest things to do is just give your team training and development. So everybody wants you read any exit interview and the top two reasons why people leave is I'm not growing in my career and the person I work for, isn't helping me.

[00:27:35] So it's just like, that's just something that can change an environment. And the clients at retail, U that have implemented the online leadership programs are seeing that in the surveys from the staff, like from just having that coaching and leadership development, full people, it gives them something additional that is not very expensive, but it's a very easy thing to do to shake that environment.

[00:27:57] Casey Golden: So let's say if we were thinking about what are, what are a handful of things that we might be seeing on the transformation of this culture change? Because it's a huge culture change in the organization from like a corporate. Corporate side, from my perspective, we're looking at different compensation, strategies training and development.

[00:28:19] Do you foresee anything else like that stands out that you feel is going to adjust over the next? Let's say two to five years when it comes to how the retail staff and how that really works.

[00:28:32] April Sabral: I mean, I think they need to retell needs to embrace bringing on more coaches. I'm a leadership development coach, right? I'm a Forbes leadership development coach now. And I think that because we assume that way, such a high coaching, high touch environment in the stores, which we are, but at that middle level from district supervisor to director, That's where the gap is right now.

[00:28:52] And I think that a lot of organizations bring on coaches, retailers don't really bring in people from the outside as coaches. So what I'm doing now is working with that middle level and to help make a difference and kind of succession planning people up. So I do think that we need to embrace that more and realize that you may have a leader like a VP or a director, but maybe they do need a leadership development coach to help them actually develop their team and succession plan and help that leadership. And I hope that that's embraced more because it's not something I was ever provided. I had to go and seek that myself outside of the organization that I worked for.

[00:29:30] So I'm really hoping that that gets embraced more because what I'm excited about the future is new leadership coming into those senior spots. Like a lot of us now some of us have, we we've done it and we've been through it, but how do we get the next level up into these seats? Because they're going to be the leaders of the organizations in the next 10 years, and that's going to really shape it. ,

[00:29:51] Casey Golden: I really want them to be the leaders over the next 10 years, you know? It's such being somebody who spent, you know, a, a good portion of my initial career on the floor. There's so much that you've learned that you want to take and do good with at corporate and being able to just even know that you can have a future, that it doesn't have to end with that, that store. I think it's just really, really important.

[00:30:16] Ricardo Belmar: There really should be able to say that, you know, today's frontline workers are tomorrow's retail leaders because they have all the built-in to build. Right.

[00:30:25] Casey Golden: Yeah, you can indirectly, right.

[00:30:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. So April along those lines, and if you look out, you know, in case they ask you about the next two to five years, I'm going to be a little closer to near term, like over the next year. What, what are you most excited about when it comes to retail leadership? What do you think is most likely to change for the better.

[00:30:42] April Sabral: Ooh, what am I most excited about that more people get retail U programs because people seem to be finding it now and embracing it. And I think it's a really good way to develop teams. And I just think, like I said, like more middle like that, more of that field leadership moving into. The additional roles, there's a lot of head of store roles posted right now, by the way, the most I've ever seen a lot of director roles.

[00:31:06] So I think we've come through a massive shift in the last couple of years. A lot of people left those roles in those Chris because of what was going on and, and opted to do something else. So I think there's a big opportunity now for that management to move up and really take those seats. So that's what I'm really excited about.

[00:31:21] Just seeing new leadership and new ideas and the new generation coming into that talent pool.

[00:31:26] Casey Golden: How would you suggest someone wanting to go ahead and start taking the first step? Do you see that first step at corporate? Do you see it at that district level?

[00:31:36] April Sabral: Yeah, , one of the things I'm working on right now with a few leaders is just development, planning sessions. So what does that actually look like? Because back in the day, when I was at Starbucks and I was at gap right before in e-comm and all of that came about, we had individual development planning sessions.

[00:31:53] With competency base and we had it on paper and we had these two things that we have to focus on and I think that's really disappeared. So I think if you were going to stop wanting to grow in your career, you need to start tapping on your bosses shoulder and being like, okay, I need a plan, not an action plan to drive your sales.

[00:32:11] But a personal development plan. And if you don't have one, there is so many tools out there. You could go and get one, because if you, somebody said to me a long time ago, if you leave your career in the hands of somebody else, you're going to be waiting for somebody else to promote you. So, you know, I took it upon myself like that whole self development journey.

[00:32:29] Right to read books about leadership, to watch Ted talks, to put a plan on paper for my own personal development, my competencies that would help me drive my business. And FYI is an amazing book that I use with a lot of leaders, but I just think a development planning session. What are the two things that April's going to work on this to become better at my job, that's going to impact the results?

[00:32:51] Is it my communication? Is it my managerial courage? Is it how to have performance conversations? What is it? And if you don't have that on paper right now, and you're in a, in a leadership role and you want to grow. You need to make sure that you have that. And unfortunately, that lacks skill in a lot of organizations.

[00:33:09] So I find myself doing that with leaders and once they've left it, they're like, and I'm doing it with their boss and them. So usually it's like a district manager with a director and I'm sitting with them and we're assessing what they need to do to do the job. And, and they walk away going, man, I have a plan and six months later, people get promoted like all the time.

[00:33:28] So I'm really good at promoting people in succession planning. It's because I focus on their development of skill, not just not just the action plan that needs to drive the results of the operational things, let's say, you know, it needs to be the people's side as well.

[00:33:44] Casey Golden: Well, and then we'll also start with reading your book, right? Start the conversation. It'd be passive aggressive, drop it on some of these guys.

[00:33:57] April Sabral: Well, and that's why I launched the second book. The lift purposely lead positively workbook because so many people read that book and they were like, but how do I actually turn this into a developed plan? I'm like, let me give you one. Now. Now there's a workbook with 15 activities that you can do to develop those skills.

[00:34:15] Right.

[00:34:15] Casey Golden: Oh, that's great. I I'm, I'm a fan of work books.

[00:34:18] Ricardo Belmar: Well, April , thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure hearing about your retail experience or your journey, everything that you're doing now with retail U. We probably haven't said it enough that our listeners should all run out and get a copy of your book if they haven't already, because there's so much fantastic advice and ideas on how to just improve your own retail career, as well as how you lead others.

[00:34:42] So how can listeners reach out to you April? You know, learn more about retail u or just follow your work?

[00:34:47] April Sabral: Yeah. So retail U like university.ca that's the website. So you can go on, check out everything that's going on there. And then I have my own, which is April Sabral.com, but you can find that through retail U or just connect with me on LinkedIn. And I always usually respond to people pretty fast.

[00:35:04] So that's where you can find me.

[00:35:05] Ricardo Belmar: Fantastic.

[00:35:06] Well, I want to thank you again for joining us.

[00:35:08] Casey Golden: I am excited. Everybody's going to be reading your book

[00:35:10] Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:35:14] Recap

[00:35:14] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone.

[00:35:20] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey,, I would be surprised if this doesn't end up being one of our most popular episodes so far. I mean, April's background and experience has so much to offer retail leaders just to make themselves better, you know, better at running their business. And most importantly, better at leading their teams.

[00:35:33] Casey Golden: Hundred percent.

[00:35:34] We can't recommend enough that if you're leading retail teams.

[00:35:38] you need to get a copy of April's book and really absorb what she's saying. You'll see the difference.

[00:35:44] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. You know, Casey you've led retail teams before. And you mentioned in the session kind of how your philosophy around managing those teams aligns with April's. So what, what would your top tip be for retail leaders? Is it pretty much the same as what April said?

[00:35:58] Casey Golden: Yeah, I could've stolen April for the entire show. There is a lot of overlap but I think a skill that, that lacks in management is learning how to be an advocate for change we have a lot of incredible talent on regional levels, but find a disconnect at corporate. April provides some great tools to be a good steward, not just from management and going downstream to their teams, but being able to develop those managers to be a good steward of getting that information and managing upstream. It's always been a gap. Even professionally moving from the field to corporate. The information flow and continuity is no different. So managing up, I think is a huge opportunity for a lot of different like HQ corporate to benefit from talent that they've been developing for years

[00:36:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's a great point. April definitely had a lot to say about that. I can see what you mean about that gap. I think we've all, if we've worked with retailers have seen the differences between what's happening in the field with store teams versus what corporate's point of view is on that and necessarily, is it the same point of view?

[00:37:04] So there's definitely an opportunity there in that upstream direction to get the information flow right, to really manage that part of the process so that everyone is getting the right learnings from those field teams. And I think April does a really good job too, of highlighting that in the book and in her retail U program on how to really set up those leaders for success, to really understand who it is they're leading

[00:37:25] Casey Golden: I remember many times where it was a weekly conference call, but we didn't have the ability to talk. We just listened

[00:37:34] every single person's phoning in to listen,

[00:37:37] you know, so I think there's a huge opportunity here that April highlights

[00:37:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah and I think you mentioned this too in April talks about it. You know, I just remember being in those store teams and when you'd hear that message would come through, oh, there's going to be a call with corporate has to review something or one of these other higher up regional managers is doing a store visit and everybody kind of panics that that's coming and you really shouldn't have to do that.

[00:37:59] Right. That shouldn't happen. It should not be such a massively stressful thing. When somebody from corporate or one of the regional. Or like a VP or somebody comes through the, to the story team, you know, it should just be a normal mode of operation, right. Because if everything is going well, then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

[00:38:13] And I think, the way April kind of positions this as a, as a leadership tool, it makes a difference here. There's that level of understanding that has to be there..

[00:38:23] Casey Golden: I agree. I think we have such an opportunity over the last couple of years that the frontline workers have been highlighted and what these jobs feel like. And how they're being led. And then we have this great resignation as well. , and I, this is a hard job, but it's filled with a lot of passionate people that are highly skilled.

[00:38:42] And, and I have to say most of them are overeducated. I know a lot of people with master's degrees that are on selling Salesforce at, in retail brands, they have master's degrees, they're fully qualified to have a voice.

[00:38:56] they need the opportunity and some refreshers on some tools on getting that management, you know, up management, upstream management, to have those voices heard.

[00:39:06] There's a lot of benefits.

[00:39:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I really hope this episode helps listeners in those retail management positions, especially those that are managing store teams. Right. Understand how important they are, not just to the role they're filling, but to that overall employee experience. Hopefully they'll take away some useful lessons from what we talked about with April.

[00:39:24] And, as you say, Casey, you gotta go out and get a copy of April's book. I think everyone. Yeah, in this industry can stand to learn quite a bit from it.

[00:39:32] Casey Golden: Yeah. Sometimes you have to step back from the tech and realize we're all only human and recognize how you lead, how we're managing people is just as important to the business as anything else we do operationally or with technology.

[00:39:48] Ricardo Belmar: A hundred percent agree with that. And on that note, Casey, I think it is time to wrap up this episode. Once again, we'll want to give a big, thank you out to April Sabral for spending some time with us and sharing her experience and knowledge. Thanks again, April, we look forward to having you back on the show.

[00:40:03] Casey Golden: and that's a wrap!.

[00:40:04]

[00:40:04] Show Close

[00:40:04] Casey Golden: If you enjoy our show, please consider giving us that special five-star rating and review on apple podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. So you don't miss a minute. Want to know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your cohost, Casey Golden.

[00:40:25] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about us, follow us on Twitter at casey-c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on LinkedIn, on Twitter at retail razor and on our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and the occasional bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:40:41] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:40:42] Ricardo Belmar: And remember there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter.

[00:40:49] Until next time, this is the retail razor show.

[00:40:52]

How do you leverage micro-fulfillment capabilities as a retailer? What are the costs and capital investment necessary? Micro-fulfillment is a hot trend to bring retail products closer to the customer to meet rapid delivery schedules. But is there a better way, at a lower cost, without capital investment, that can deliver the customer experience you want? Enter 1MRobotics, a nano-fulfillment as a service provider that turns the concept into a cookie-cutter approach the size of a shipping container!

This episode continues our special podcast cross-over series, #NRFLive, with the This Week In Innovation podcast. In Part 4, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Jeff Roster speak with the VP of Sales at 1MRobotics, Gonen Gershuni. 1MRobotics delivers a nano-fulfillment center as a service to retailers, designed especially for urban deployments at scale. Join Jeff & Ricardo as they learn how nano-fulfillment can revolutionize retail with new use cases. Regular cohost Casey Golden also joins Ricardo for a quick introduction and recap

This discussion was recorded live & in-person during #NRF2023, in the fabulous Avanade lounge. A big thank you to Avanade for sponsoring this series and making the recordings possible!

News alert! We’ve moved up to #18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list - please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! Leave us a review & be mentioned in future episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your regular hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E10d Micro-fulfillment with 1MRobotics

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:00] Show Intro 

[00:00:00] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to a special season two episode 10 part four of the Retail Razor Show. This is the fourth in our multi-part series recorded live and in person at the N R F 2023 Show in January. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:33] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome to the Retail Razor Show, retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. And once again, for this special bonus, welcome N R F fans to our hot take hashtag N R F Live mini-series.

[00:00:54] Ricardo Belmar: So Casey, we are here again with our podcast crossover event with [00:01:00] Jeff Foster and the This Week in Innovation podcast. And thanks to our sponsor, Avanade, we were able to record in this series live and in person at the N R F Show in Avanade's fabulous lounge space overlooking the main expo floor.

[00:01:12] Casey Golden: A big shout out to our friends at Avanade for giving you and Jeff such a great space to record from. They know how to get things done!

[00:01:20] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. So let's dive right into this week's discussion. Casey, when I say micro fulfillment to you, what do you think of and what would you say if I said micro fulfillment specifically for dense urban locations?

[00:01:32] Casey Golden: Hmm. Quick and smart fill-ins for your best sellers so you don't miss out on a sale?

[00:01:37] Ricardo Belmar: Ah, well, I think you're gonna be fascinated by this discussion with our special guest, Gonen Gershuni, the VP of Sales at 1 M Robotics. Have to say, when Jeff and I sat down with him in the lounge to talk about how they're transforming micro fulfillment, especially for dense urban areas where, let's face it, you, you don't expect to find a lot of available space for really [00:02:00] large micro fulfillment centers.

[00:02:01] And, and yeah, I know it sounds kind of odd to say large micro fulfillment centers, but that's the way, the way it goes. But 1 M Robotics, they're, they're talking about a fully automated, micro fulfillment center, that's basically the size of a shipping container. And did I mention they can easily convert it into a fully automated store that's customer facing.

[00:02:18] We're, we're gonna hear about a lot of different possibilities and configurations of this technology.

[00:02:23] Casey Golden: So the first thing I thought was, sounds expensive for a large micro fulfillment center. Now I'm intrigued when you said shipping container. So I'm ready for it. And you know how much I love powering the future of e-commerce, and this sounds like something really interesting to help those use cases.

[00:02:43] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree. So let's jump right in and listen to Jeff and my discussion with Gonen from 1 M Robotics.

[00:02:55] 1MRobotics Interview

[00:02:55] Ricardo Belmar: Hey everyone. We are back at NRF 2023 [00:03:00] with another special bonus episode in our series here. I'm Ricardo Belmar, and I'm here with my special guest host Jeff Roster, host of This Week in Innovation.

[00:03:09] Jeff Roster: Ricardo, how you doing today?

[00:03:11] Ricardo Belmar: I am doing great. A little tired at this point after I lost track of how many days this is again, we start each of these sessions trying to remember where are we, , what are we doing?

[00:03:22] How far into the event are we? And I guess that says it's kind of back to normal because in a normal NRF, I'd be lost by the time we get to the end,

[00:03:30] Jeff Roster: I can see the finish line.

[00:03:32] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, there you go. There you go. 

[00:03:33] Jeff Roster: I can feel it. We're running through the tape. And what a tape it is to run through.

[00:03:38] What what an amazing week couldn't be prouder of, of N R F, the industry, the tech community. They showed up strong strong energy. Literally, literally at the end of the show. And they're still laughing. Some of your colleagues at Microsoft are toasting. I know. I noticed you've giving up the champagne toast, just so you know.

[00:03:54] I'm not sure I would've done

[00:03:55] Ricardo Belmar: I know. Yeah, I know.

[00:03:56] Jeff Roster: know. So just a fantastic deal. Excellent. All around. Could not be [00:04:00]happier, could not be proud of the industry.

[00:04:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. I agree. I agree. And to that end, we are fortunate enough to have another special guest. So we're joined here by Gonen Gershuni of 1M robotics and Gonen I think we're just gonna jump right in. First of all, I'm, I'm super excited that we've got some time with you here to record, but why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background how 1M Robotics came to be and what your solution is, how you're helping retailer is, and, and give us the, the scoop on 

[00:04:31] that.

[00:04:32] Gonen Gershuni: Sure. So Ricardo, Jeff, thanks so much for this opportunity. Couldn't be more excited to be here with you today. What an amazing stage this is. I mean, NRF B Beck, B Beck larger, bigger than ever. And this is an amazing facility. Well done for the NRF crowd.

[00:04:50] A bit about myself, Goen Gari, VP sales at one of robotics.

[00:04:54] I joined the company a bit under a year and a half ago. Prior to that, I worked at another successful [00:05:00] Israeli startup called Bring. They're also here. Shout out to the Bring team. You guys are

[00:05:03] Ricardo Belmar: know The Bring team. Yeah.

[00:05:04] Jeff Roster: met them, I bumped into them.

[00:05:05] Gonen Gershuni: Yeah. So

[00:05:07] Jeff Roster: the

[00:05:07] only company that actually had a bottle of wine that we toasted while we were, while, while we were talking.

[00:05:14] That, that, that's a, that's a first now I've had, I've had people at, at happy hour bring, not in the middle of the day. So that was, that was a fun, fun interview.

[00:05:22] Gonen Gershuni: It's yeah, it's always Happy Hour at Israeli Startups. And Israelis like the party, so it's a great it's a great company. I worked at Bring for about five years in various sales roles, from business development to global partnership sales, overseeing various strategic initiatives.

[00:05:37] So this gave me, I would say, a very rich and deep understanding and background on e-commerce, last mile fulfillment and all that. Prior to that, I was about, I was in performance marketing for about three to four years, so for the better part of the last decade and a bit more, I wa I'm, I've been in various high-tech companies in very, at various lifecycle lifecycle stages and very proud to be at 1M robotics today.

[00:05:59] In a [00:06:00] nutshell, one of robotics is a startup that's focused on automating hyper-local logistics infrastructure. It's a mouthful, but this pretty much means that we are creating urban facilities for last mile fulfillment that are leveraging automation and robotic technology to alleviate the main pain points of last mile.

[00:06:19] Those two, those are being, those are mainly two challenges, unit economics and scale operating at scale while remaining ROI positive.

[00:06:28] Ricardo Belmar: I think that was a mouthful, but I'm, I'm like it so far. So let me ask you this, give us a little more go down another layer and tell us how you're doing that.

[00:06:36] Gonen Gershuni: Okay, great. So let's first start with a quick background story or the origin story, as I like to say in comics of 1M Robotics.

[00:06:43] 1M Robotics was founded by co-founder and ceo, Eyal Yair, and co-founder and coo, Roee Tuval. Eyal is a seasoned entrepreneur having led various startups, this is his fourth, two were sold, one was less of a success story, but nonetheless, a great experience to be [00:07:00] had. And he brings a wealth of experience in sales, business development, and other related functions.

[00:07:05] Roee Tuval co-founder and COO, brings a rich background in robotics, photonics and other related materials, material handling. The two collaborated as they got together to identify the main needs in last mile or fulfillment infrastructure, and they saw that micro fulfillment or just about any other large sized facility leveraged today, that's a hotly contested field, a red ocean as they, as it's typically called, meaning tons of competition, tons of players operating in the space, and they're all great formidable companies addressing some major pain points, but not last mile fulfillment, not rapid delivery. They are at best able to offer what's called same day order today, receive it later in the day toward the evening time at best. Again, most of the time it's next day, but really they saw a major gap when it came to rapid delivery.

[00:07:54] And when we say rapid delivery, yes, it can be the quick commerce type of delivery increments of [00:08:00] 30 minutes and below, but it's just about anything below two hours.

[00:08:04] And that was a, a really blue ocean with tremendous opportunity and a major need from just about any retailer and CPG brand looking to address or to reach their customers in a closer and faster, timely manner. So they saw that there was zero automation in that space, and that's how they decided to form this company to create urban facilities that are way smaller. So we're talking about facilities that are about the size of a standard store, convenience store, et cetera. So think some, think somewhere along the lines of hundreds to to thousands in the few of square feet.

[00:08:40] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. So I, I take it then based on, on the size, right? When you, when, when I, when I think of micro fulfillment, I think of a larger format, large store, not the size of a distribution center, but, or fulfillment center, but something smaller than that.

[00:08:54] So clearly larger form factor than you're talking about, which I guess makes it difficult to put that in an urban [00:09:00] environment cause it's hard to find that large space. So is the idea here then, that, by doing this in that smaller format, you're able to get a higher density in an urban environment for someone that wants to do this kind of rapid delivery.

[00:09:12] Gonen Gershuni: It's twofold. First of all, spot on. Physically it's very challenging to place a micro fulfillment center in a dense, urban, metropolitan area, think downtown Manhattan.

[00:09:22] It's impossible. Authorities wouldn't allow it. It's very costly and it would create lots of friction because those facilities are predominantly not 100% automated. Now, let's take a facility that's about the size of a standard seven 11 store Micro fulfillment operators would not take such a project on.

[00:09:38] It's too small for them, and they also would have to adapt their technology solution to fit inside a way smaller form factor. And this is where we come in with our technology innovation. We're able to fit into very densely populated urban metropolitan areas and locate our, or deploy our facilities within a very small retail footprint. By introducing [00:10:00] automation, we're able to also do two things. For one, expedite workflows alleviate the pain of the human workforce, and in doing so, also completely eliminate shrinkage, human error and other related challenges.

[00:10:12] Ricardo Belmar: So, so how automated are, are we talking about? Are, are you saying this is, this is a fully automated facility or is very light to no human touch required?

[00:10:20] Gonen Gershuni: So we have two types of solutions, two types of installments or two types of systems, as we call them. One, an autonomous lights out facility. And that, as you said, Ricardo, is 100% lights out, an end-to-end automated facility. We've already got this deployed with various exciting customers around the world, such as Nespresso, such as AB InBev, et C.

[00:10:41] And that is a, a facility that requires zero headcount. A customer places an order on an online channel, and then our system does everything picking, packing, and the pushes out an order for a delivery guide to collect or a customer pickup. In addition to that, this can also serve returns and [00:11:00] things are way faster and easier to do from one single, let's call it omnichannel presence.

[00:11:04] Second option or the second infrastructure that we've created is what's called collaborative automation.

[00:11:09] In cases where the, the human workforce is still required to operate some sort of function within the facility, we expedite and simplify workflows by introducing automation into the game, taking a fully manually relying operation and adopting it to this new reality.

[00:11:30] Incorporating innovation into the story and automation makes things a lot faster. It's sort of like, think about the assembly line as it was first introduced in the days of. All the way to where it's at today with Tesla,

[00:11:40] a lot more innovation, a lot less reliance on the human workforce while still having some workforce, some, some work tests done by the human operator.

[00:11:48] Jeff Roster: Now you you showed the ne I can't even talk right now. My, my throat's so thrashed, the coffee example. How many SKUs was that in that automated footprint store?

[00:11:58] Gonen Gershuni: So in that specific facility, because [00:12:00] we're talking about a rather limited product assortment to begin with, right? That's a few hundreds we can support all the way up to around 4,000 SKUs. And I would say another differentiating factor in our technologies is that we also support frozens.

[00:12:13] That's unheard of in warehousing automation,

[00:12:16] Jeff Roster: So 4,000 SKUs. What's a typical 7-Eleven. 

[00:12:19] Le less than 4,000 SKUs. Okay.

[00:12:22] Gonen Gershuni: Aldi US for example, they're around, they're somewhere along the lines of 2000 

[00:12:27] Average quick commerce players between 1,500 to 3000 ma max. We are, we are not trying to address a hypermarket.

[00:12:36] I am less relevant for that Costco, that Walmart, but for the small format stores, for the convenience store chains, for consumer, electronic, small format stores like the Best, like Best Buy is trying to now launch. This is a great fit.

[00:12:49] And this is where we play. We're playing in the fast moving goods line where we're talking about product assortment that you want to get out your customers as fast as possible, offer that brand new [00:13:00] iPhone as fast as possible.

[00:13:02] As you are doing the npi,

[00:13:04] Jeff Roster: There's also a almost a loss prevention component of that too, I would assume. I, I'm, I'm in California and we have loss prevention's, a major, major issue.

[00:13:11] You sort of solve that by no one's inside the, the store. 

[00:13:15] Exactly. 

[00:13:15] Wow. Interesting.

[00:13:16] Gonen Gershuni: Yes, we provide the software suite as well, so we've developed our own wms.

[00:13:20] It's not a must, it's not a mandatory element to, for our customers, but we do have live visibility and true inventory tracking at any single point. And this also allows us to provide demand forecasting, restocking, and replenishment reporting, and other smart alerts to support our businesses with their mission critical operations.

[00:13:37] I would also add that shrink is a major pain point because at the end of the day when we're talking about consumer electronics, we, we are operate, we are already working with some leading apple distributors globally. And in many markets, the product it's that is being sold might be more costly than the human workforce.

[00:13:53] One single human employee. And in such case, if you lose one iPhone, this is a major [00:14:00] challenge for you as a business. And we're able to completely eliminate that by providing live visibility to each and every single skew that we.

[00:14:06] Jeff Roster: That's so interesting. Wow. How many deployments do you have of that? That that example where it's literally, I mean, it's, it's automation, but I mean, it almost feels like a giant giant you know, kiosk.

[00:14:19] Gonen Gershuni: Yeah. So we've touched on an important point. Our system go, comes shipped in a container sized form factor, meaning we use standard shipping containers to ship our systems globally by land or sea.

[00:14:32] This allows us to operate very flexibly and to ship out our system super fast. In addition to that, we can deploy the system just about anywhere, either as is, as a standalone unit within the container, and then it's a great way to address smaller towns, rural areas and also deploy this next to a venue or where ever.

[00:14:50] Second option is to remove it from the container shell and just re and place the system as is within a retail facility within a retail real estate in such [00:15:00] case takes us about under two hours to deploy inside of a facility. So it's an off-the-shelf solution with almost with near as the zero launch time.

[00:15:09] So this for a business is a game changer.

[00:15:11] Jeff Roster: Yeah. So, so you are in fact an automated store.

[00:15:15] I didn't realize that.

[00:15:16] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:15:16] Gonen Gershuni: but I think that that's also a

[00:15:18] Jeff Roster: I mean, you're, you're a really automated, automated store. I mean, cuz you're not even, I guess the difference is, you know, some of the examples we look at I don't wanna say which, which vendors, but I mean, you walk into the store, you pick it up and you, you know, so shop and go, or however you wanna say it.

[00:15:31] You're not, I'm obviously not getting into the store, which makes you a perfect loss prevention.

[00:15:37] Gonen Gershuni: Correct.

[00:15:37] But I would add though, that in some cases, for example, let's think of Walgreens. Okay? They work with Verizon. Verizon effectively develop, gives them a store within a store, right? A designated section that's purely the product assortment of a, that Verizon is selling.

[00:15:52] At Walgreens, we can also incorporate our system directly into a retail facility. So for example, this we be, we can be talking to a [00:16:00] retailer. And he might be thinking, okay, how do I utilize this within my existing real estate network? They can just allocate or designate, designate a specific zone for us to add to automate, and then they can have one third store automated for e-commerce orders and deliveries and colle and customer pickups.

[00:16:18] And the other part be experiential. Have the customers, the walk-in traffic roaming around the store doing their purchases. Not nothing is interrupted. And this allows me to avoid that friction of couriers coming in, flocking into the store, while also having walking traffic roaming around.

[00:16:36] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Interesting. But then, and then, So you have lots of different ways and that you can help because I, I'm assuming because of the automation, you could also operate in a truly totally dark, you mentioned before a lights out mode right? Where completely standalone everything is, is, is packaged up. You just have whoever's doing the delivery basically picks it up.

[00:16:53] Gonen Gershuni: Yes. 

[00:16:54] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:16:55] Gonen Gershuni: I would also add that because it's it's an automated robotic mechanism, we're able to also [00:17:00] leverage addition, I would say expansion dimensions. What I mean by that is that if, for example, the ceiling height within retail facility is around four meters. We're able to expand going higher, longer, or wider, accommodating the needs or the challenges and constraints of the actual retail facility.

[00:17:17] So let's say it's an L-shaped facility, the system can be expandable to accommodate and to maximize on storage capacity. 

[00:17:24] And in doing so, we can cover more SKUs. We can reach higher, wider, longer, whatever. Some, some, some specific areas where a human operator simply put would not be able to. I'm not four meters tall.

[00:17:37] I wish I was 

[00:17:38] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:17:39] Gonen Gershuni: I'd have a promising NBA career.

[00:17:41] Ricardo Belmar: Right. . Right, right. So there's so a lot of flexibility obviously in the, in the form factor you can take and how you support a given retailer. So and I guess that's the differentiator then for you versus other. You know, cause like you said at the beginning, there's so many other micro fulfillment players, but they're all geared around the much [00:18:00] larger form factor where almost each location is like, is like a custom build out.

[00:18:04] Gonen Gershuni: Yeah. 

[00:18:04] Ricardo Belmar: And you've almost made this into almost a cookie cutter approach for the retailer 

[00:18:08] Gonen Gershuni: it's, exactly a cookie

[00:18:09] Jeff Roster: I would a yeah.

[00:18:10] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. 

[00:18:11] Gonen Gershuni: an off-the-shelf solution with zero 

[00:18:13] launch 

[00:18:13] Jeff Roster: shipping in the cart, the container that you would just drop at a stadium or at a 

[00:18:19] racetrack or something. You literally just drop it.

[00:18:21] Gonen Gershuni: it. Indy 500, let's go.

[00:18:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:18:23] Yeah 

[00:18:23] Gonen Gershuni: do

[00:18:24] Jeff Roster: somebody, there's somebody already there though.

[00:18:25] Gonen Gershuni: No problem. You're right. But I think it's three main differentiators. It's size, scale, and the fact that we're off the shelf size-wise. Again, we can work in a very impractically, a way smaller facility that's about the size of a standard convenience store scale because the system is off the shelf.

[00:18:41] This means that it can be deployed in zero time and can easily be deployed in many, many more locations. It's practically, it's practically something that can easily be duplicated to address more crowds, reaching more customers. And third it's an off the shelf offering so that we are able to mass produce these systems [00:19:00] and be up and running faster.

[00:19:02] The, just to give you some under general understanding on the micro fulfillment space, a traditional facility requires around a year to just launch one single site. It costs in the millions, and it requires a lot of onsite construction. Here we're talking about a plug and play offering that costs a fraction of the price at an OPEX commercial model, meaning we're only pay, the customer is only paying us one a monthly usage fee.

[00:19:28] No installation fee, no hidden costs. Nada. It's way faster and easier to adopt. I think that it's pretty much an an adoption or an adaptation of a SaaS model. Mm-hmm. on a hardware and software base.

[00:19:41] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Wow.

[00:19:42] Gonen Gershuni: It's an adaptation.

[00:19:43] Ricardo Belmar: that's an interesting model!

[00:19:44] Jeff Roster: That I know we're, we're, Ricardo and I both looked at each other and after five days of exhaustion, that, that, that perked me up

[00:19:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:51] Jeff Roster: And I, I didn't realize in the demonstration, you're literally an autonomous store.

[00:19:55] I, yeah, I got the whole, the whole pick and pack or thing, but boy, that's a, that's a whole interesting [00:20:00] con scenario to say the least.

[00:20:02] Gonen Gershuni: the retail. I think that the retail angle is clearly a very strong one for us in terms of product market fit, but we are also seeing high demand now also from coming from upstream, meaning taking this into a DC. A facility that still is very much manually operated and incorporating our systems directly into that to address a specific line of products within the DC or to take this into industrial use cases, auto parts.

[00:20:26] Just think of an example. Let's say you're now about to board that plane taking you home, right? If right now there's a maintenance issue, they're putting out a, a real-time request, right? Calling the maintenance crew to bring that missing part, even a tiny. Every single, any single minute of delay is now costing millions to the airline.

[00:20:44] Customers are now frustrated. They're, they're, they're annoyed. They're gone to demand compensation. So that's a lot of, that's millions of dollars in fines. We're able to address them with front, front frontline warehouse that is fully [00:21:00] automated with full visibility into inventory. This is also a game changer for the airline industry, and that's just off the top of my head. Yes, 

[00:21:07] Jeff Roster: that's, I 

[00:21:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, 

[00:21:08] that's a big deal. 

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:09] Jeff Roster: Wow. 

[00:21:10] Ricardo Belmar: So, so then if we look out into 2023 and this year and, and beyond, obviously you, you, you've got a really positive outlook on, on the potential here. I, I'm just thinking this year in particular, how, how would you gauge the retailer interest?

[00:21:24] Just based on what you've seen here at the show? Are you expecting to have. A really successful 2023. You think you expect to see a lot of engage new engagements with retailers because there's a lot of pent up demand for this.

[00:21:36] Gonen Gershuni: So I, yes, there's definitely a huge demand for this, but being a startup, we need to be minded to the fact that we should also be focused on the markets where we are seeing the immediate the, where there's a clear line of site on the ROI we're bringing for our customers and the value to be had.

[00:21:53] If it's a nice to have. Then we, we'll probably not dive into any such opportunity. We're mainly [00:22:00] addressing the businesses that have, that have an immediate need for this. Whether it's urgency driven in terms of their customers demanding faster service, whether it's because of the tight SLA that they're promising to customers and are failing to meet or various other parameters.

[00:22:14] I would say that the immediate sectors that we are addressing are those in retail, where there is a urgency for the product to.

[00:22:22] And also an understanding on the retail side that automation is their way to go forward, their future for the business. We're not trying to replace an existing warehousing automation technology stack.

[00:22:34] Contrary. On the contrary, we are happy to work alongside an MFC because we are not replacing them. It's an additional node in their supply chain, and we see this as an ecosystem play. Where're partnering up with additional players such as Microsoft powering their tech stack such as SAP maybe, or any other player, is an additional part in this holistic approach.

[00:22:57] Ricardo Belmar: wow. 

[00:22:57] Jeff Roster: Yeah.

[00:22:58] Very

[00:22:58] Ricardo Belmar: interesting. Very, yeah, [00:23:00] really fascinating. Wow. Looking forward to seeing how, how this plays out for you this year. Yeah. This is

[00:23:05] Gonen Gershuni: When are you guys coming to either Israel or, or either dep, other deployments? 

[00:23:09] Jeff Roster: You gotta invite me. 

[00:23:10] I'd come in a heartbeat.

[00:23:11] Gonen Gershuni: Okay. We need to check two things first, number one, that you that you are open to having lots of hummus. Number two, that you're open to drinking anytime of the day.

[00:23:20] Ricardo Belmar: I, I, I think we've got those two covered. 

[00:23:21] So, yeah.

[00:23:23] Jeff Roster: so funny story on that. I've never, ever, ever liked eggplant. And well, well, you'd have to see how Americans cook eggplant. And I got, I got to Israel and we're having, I mean, I've never seen more hummus in my entire life.

[00:23:36] And I'm eating, there's, I'm eating this and I go, wow, what is this? And the, the waiter comes and says, well, that's baba ganoush. 

[00:23:42] Ahhh. I go, what's 

[00:23:43] Ricardo Belmar: yep. I love Baba ganoush.

[00:23:44] Jeff Roster: It's eggplant. ah,

[00:23:47] Gonen Gershuni: I'm with you Jeff. I'm not a fan of eggplant. Eggplant is my nemesis, archnemesis

[00:23:52] Jeff Roster: But I'll 

[00:23:52] lead 

[00:23:53] Ricardo Belmar: that baba gsh all day

[00:23:54] Jeff Roster: I like saying it, I like 

[00:23:55] eating it. So that is, that is a, that is an, an offer I will like gladly [00:24:00] accept.

[00:24:00] Gonen Gershuni: Okay. Sounds good to me.

[00:24:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. That'll work. All right. Well, Gonen, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an, an another really special learning experience, I think for us to, to hear about what you're doing. And this is really fascinating. I'm looking forward to seeing how this grows.

[00:24:16] Gonen Gershuni: Ricardo, Jeff, thank you so much for this opportunity.

[00:24:18] I've been following your show for a long time now, and I love your work. Keep up your amazing energy and pretty much driving innovation across retail through your thought 

[00:24:26] Jeff Roster: It's, It's,

[00:24:27] wilted, but we'll rally when we get home.

[00:24:29] Ricardo Belmar: And, and.

[00:24:30] right. After we recover and 

[00:24:31] Jeff Roster: me just say special thanks to Microsoft for Startups, Shish and, and Ricardo for what you've done up here. We're up in this beautiful suite overlooking NRF and there have been a per a parade of startups that have come through and, and I, you've just done a fantastic job.

[00:24:46] So well done Microsoft and Shish. Looking forward to seeing more of what you do going forward.

[00:24:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. And then I'll also add another special thank you to Avanade for having made this series that we did possible by graciously letting us use some of your space. And [00:25:00] helping us be, be quite flexible on the timing and our ability to react quickly to use this. So thanks to to both groups for, for helping us out on this series.

[00:25:09] Gonen Gershuni: Just to chime in, thank you. Also, I'd also like to thank Microsoft, our close partners for their amazing work, Shish and the rest of the team. You guys are phenomenal. Keep driving the industry forward with your forward thinking, thought leadership, and amazing work.

[00:25:22] And thank you Ricardo and Jeff.

[00:25:23] Jeff Roster: Excellent. 

[00:25:24] Ricardo Belmar: excellent. Thank you. 

[00:25:25] Jeff Roster: Safe travels.

[00:25:26] Show Recap

[00:25:26] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone. So, wow. Talk about endless possibilities with something that started out as just a small form factor micro fulfillment service. I mean, I can totally see this being integrated into other stores in urban geographies and maybe by e-commerce brands trying to offer rapid delivery.

[00:25:54] So much opportunity here.

[00:25:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it's like I previewed at, at the start, Gonen goes through a number of use [00:26:00] cases that I just wouldn't have thought of as micro fulfillment as the solution for those.

[00:26:04] Casey Golden: when you think about it. I can really see these guys taking off and being very successful.

[00:26:11] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I certainly came away learning so much about new use cases for micro fulfillment with the way 1M Robotics can deliver it. Honestly, we, we may have to have Gonen or, or one of their founders come on the show next season just to give us an update on how they're doing.

[00:26:25] Casey Golden: Absolutely. 

[00:26:27] Well, Ricardo, I think that is a wrap for part four of our N R F Live crossover series. Can't wait to see how you and Jeff wrap up this next episode.

[00:26:37] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, Jeff and I saved a really great fun discussion with Greg Jones from Avanade to wrap us up with a discussion on trends we saw at NRF. Plus a few thoughts on the startups in retail. So tune in next time for part five.

[00:26:49] Casey Golden: Oh, I love to hear that. So that means this episode is a wrap.

[00:26:55] Show Closing

[00:26:55] Casey Golden: [00:27:00] If you enjoyed our show, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Wanna know more about what we talked about today. Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets.

[00:27:18] I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.

[00:27:20] Ricardo Belmar: If you'd like to connect with us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on Twitter at Retail Razor on LinkedIn, and on our YouTube channel for the latest updates and content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:27:36] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:27:37] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there has never been a better time to be in retail if you cut through the clutter. Until next time, this is the Retail Razor Show. 

What will the holiday 2023 shopping season look like for retailers? How are consumers adjusting their shopping, buying, and gifting habits this holiday season given the current economic environment? It’s our Holiday Special episode and we’ve brought in two incredible experts to dive into what’s really happening this season and explore what we expect the season will bring retailers.

Meet Roshan Jhunja, Head of Retail for Square, who recently released their holiday Festive Forecast report based on surveying merchants and consumers, and Bridget Johns-Pavlopoulos, co-Founder of To&From, a premium multi-brand marketplace for gifts of all occasions.

Square/AfterPay Festive Forecast Report available here: https://bit.ly/3EwpqP2

To&From gifting marketplace: https://app.toandfrom.com/

News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show has been nominated for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during NRF 2023 in January in New York City! IF you’re a fan of the show, please give us your vote! You can vote here: https://bit.ly/VIPretail

News alert #2! We’ve moved up to #19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list, so please keep those 5-star reviews in Apple Podcasts coming! With your help, we’ll move our way further up the Top 20! Leave us a review to be mentioned in upcoming episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Made It On Stream (Xmas), from the album Lo-Fi Christmas, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. Includes sound effects provided by Free Sounds Library.

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E6 Holiday Special

[00:00:00] Ricardo Belmar:

[00:00:20] Show Intro

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to a very Merry and Joyous season two episode six of the Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo.

[00:00:28] Casey Golden: And I'm your holiday spirited cohost, Casey Golden. Welcome retail Razor Show listeners to retail's favorite jingle, bell filled podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike.

[00:00:45] Ricardo Belmar: And if you didn't guess by our whimsical and seasonal intro, this is our holiday specials for 2023 episode of the show.

[00:00:54] Casey Golden: So Ricardo did. Did you start your holiday shopping or this season?

[00:00:58] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. Actually, [00:01:00] no, not really. I mean, had every intention to, honestly, ever since that second Amazon Prime day that we're not supposed to call Prime Day, cuz apparently I'm one of the few people who did buy things on that sale, but they were mostly for me and it didn't really help me get the shopping started early.

[00:01:14] Casey Golden: Oh, shame on you, Well, didn't you know that every industry expert is saying customers started the season early? Maybe you just need to hear it from our two guests today to get you into the shopping season of giving mode.

[00:01:30] Ricardo Belmar: Well, funny you should say that, Casey, because I bet many of our listeners are just like me and could use some insider knowledge on gifting and shopping ideas for the season. And by the way, did you start your shopping already,

[00:01:42] Casey Golden: Of course I did. My grandmother taught me to shop for thoughtful gifts all year long, but there are always a few emergency pur purchases before, you know, black friday, of course.

[00:01:52] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I should have known. So let's tell our listeners then all about our guests for today. Since we're not like other retail podcasts, we don't [00:02:00] just bring you a holiday special episode and talk about sales numbers for year over year stats for the season. No, no, no, of course we don't do that.

[00:02:09] Casey Golden: Certainly not. I mean, if you just want those types of numbers, check out the reports on NR F'S website instead, we're bringing you some much needed insights into what retailers and consumers are, not just thinking. , but what they're actually doing so far this season.

[00:02:25] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. Today we will be chatting with Roshan Jhunja, the head of retail for Square, who will be sharing some valuable insights from their recently released holiday forecast and survey of merchants and consumers.

[00:02:37] Casey Golden: And we also have Bridget Johns co-founder of To & From a premium multi-brand marketplace for gifts of all occasion. Who will share some interesting data about how consumers are shopping for gifts, and maybe she'll give us a few hints on what the hot presents really are this season.

[00:02:54] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I could certainly use some help in that department, so let's not keep everybody waiting and dive right into our [00:03:00] discussion with Roshan and Bridget.

[00:03:06] Holiday Special - Gifting

[00:03:06] Casey Golden: welcome everyone. We all know that finding that perfect gift is no easy task. But our guests have been making holiday shopping a lot more productive for retailers to prepare for the holiday season and less stressful on our pocketbooks. Alarming stat, 41% of Americans are willing to take on debt to gift shop with a whopping 15.2 billion is the estimated total of unwanted presents.

[00:03:35] This is worth the conversation. We all say we're starting out our holiday shopping early this year, but what are we buying? What are the trends in who's shopping where and with what? Let's unwrap the holiday gift shopping season. This is our 2023 holiday special report.

[00:03:53] Ricardo Belmar: And of course when the retail razor show does a holiday special, we don't just run through all the usual stats everybody else talks about. [00:04:00] You know the ones, how much will sales increase year over year? What categories will underperform or overperform, all the usual suspects? No, we like to take a different approach and leverage some real world experts that have read the pulse of both retailers and consumers.

[00:04:14] So to help us unwrap this holiday special extravaganza. We brought in two experts on the topic, Roshan Jhunja, head of retail at Square joins us today hot off the heels of releasing Square, and AfterPay's festive forecast report, Roshan will be sharing many facts and stats from that extensive merchant and consumer survey.

[00:04:33] Welcome Roshan.

[00:04:34] Roshan Jhunja: Thank you, Ricardo Casey. Glad to be here.

[00:04:36] Casey Golden: And since it's the season of Gift Giving, we've also brought in Bridget Johns, co-founder of To and From a Premium Multi-brand marketplace for every occasion guest to share interesting facts and figures about how people are shopping, why they're shopping, and. What they're shopping for. As we learn why To and From's mission is to change how we feel about gift [00:05:00] giving and receiving.

[00:05:01] Welcome Bridget.

[00:05:02] Bridget Johns: thanks so much for having.

[00:05:04] Ricardo Belmar: let's go to you first. We're gonna talk a lot about your Festive Forecast report in this episode because we're all about the data on this show. So why don't you start us off by telling us a little bit about your background and what you do at Square and Afterpay, and explain to us the methodology in the survey and you know, who are the respondents?

[00:05:22] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah. Glad to do that. So just to recap, square started with a purpose, which was to enable any individual or business to participate in the economy. And today,

[00:05:31] 13 years after that,

[00:05:31] founding, we've got a full ecosystem of commerce solutions from software to hardware, enabling merchants of every size type and complexity to run their business on Square.

[00:05:39] That includes retailers, restaurants, beauty, personal care. And so my role at Square is looking after the retail vertical. So in particular, I'm the head of retail at Square. I've been at the company for six years. Before this I was largely in financial services, but kind of was interested in the mission and purpose of Square, and that's what sort of brought me and keeps me and, and my goal.

[00:05:59] And I'm, I'm, you know, [00:06:00] the thing that keeps me excited and, and eager to get going every day is to empower retailers of all sizes to. By leveraging Square's platform. So I over oversee all the aspects of the vertical and we were really looking to create the best possible experience for retailers who run their businesses on square. terms of the methodology of this survey you know, like any good survey, it's important to make sure you've got a broad cross section. So we looked at both the consumer side 1000 consumers in the US as well as the seller side. So on the consumers, you know, we surveyed at the beginning of September, we made sure that we got equal gender representation.

[00:06:33] We made sure that it was a broad demographic from, you know, the, the different regions in the us, northwest south, the Midwest, and, and. generationally, because that's increasingly an important access to look at. We made sure to include gen Z and millennials. In fact, you know, those kind of younger cohorts made up about 40% of the survey, but we also heard from Gen X, baby boomers and the postwar generation.

[00:06:55] And so, you know, by doing so, we were able to draw out some meaningful distinctions between [00:07:00] how those different consumers operate. And then lastly, we also made sure to, to cover the seller side of the story. So we surveyed almost 600 square sellers in the us you know, of varying sizes, including some larger sellers.

[00:07:11] And you know, one of the things that we did here was we looked year over year factoring, you know, some data that we have both on the square and after pay side. And yeah, eager to get into some of the the.

[00:07:21] Ricardo Belmar: All right, fantastic. I'm looking forward to that. So Bridget, let's have you jump in here. You know, we've known each other for a long time now, but for listeners, why don't you tell us your background and what did you, and why did you get into the, the gifting side of the business and what makes gifting such a challenge?

[00:07:34] And of course, what makes to and from unique.

[00:07:37] Bridget Johns: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. I've been in retail my entire life. I grew up on a farm and my first retail business was a corn stand when I was 10 years old. I moved on to more exciting retail. Worked for many years for brands like Ralph Lauren Home Collection, Tiffany and Co L'Oreal. And for the last 12 years as you know, Ricardo, I worked for Retail Next, which is an analytics company based in Silicon Valley, really focused [00:08:00] on brick and mortar data, data gathering of, of customer.

[00:08:04] Action inside of brick and mortar stores. So as I started thinking about how I wanted to take my two sets of experience and bring them together to start my own company, gifting was obvious. It's my love language. It always has been. And I see a lot of pain points in today's gifting in the gifting world.

[00:08:22] So those sort of break down into three categories that I talk about as discovery. It's hard for people to find good gifts. If you go to large marketplaces and you search for something, you are probably gonna be disappointed in those search results. there are No tools really for modern gifting.

[00:08:45] On the digital side when you get outside of those large marketplaces. So there aren't things like widely adopted universal registry. There isn't a data set that really allows. Somebody to understand a consumer and their [00:09:00] preferences when it comes to when it comes to the people that are they're buying for and the occasions they're buying for them in their life.

[00:09:06] And the third thing is, as Casey talked about, you know, 15.2 billion in returns of gifts, people don't like the gifts that they're getting. So our idea. That there is enough data in the market and that people will tell you about what they actually want as gifts, that if you bring it together intelligently and layer it in with some really good curation and some really awesome tools that help to just manage the day to day gifting that you can deliver a much better experience for consumers.

[00:09:37] So that's what we're building at, to and from.

[00:09:40] Casey Golden: It's great and it is all about consumers. So let's talk about the first step to any gift giving inspiration, stocking up on ideas and making a list. This is really where I see an opportunity for retailers to win customers over through product discovery. Where are shoppers getting their inspiration from holiday purchases?

[00:09:59] Bridget?

[00:09:59] Bridget Johns: That is [00:10:00] a great question and I think Roan will probably say the same. They get through inspiration everywhere and sometimes in the most unusual places. I have a 10 year old son who is a hockey player in a hockey mom's group on Facebook, and you would be shocked to see how much conversation is about hockey related.

[00:10:21] For their hockey players. So I think, and it's like one of the things that we do at to and from is we get very precise about the occasion, the relationship, and the interests of the people who you're buying for so that you can get very targeted in really good gift recommendations.

[00:10:38] Casey Golden: Roshan, your report has some interesting stats on this topic. What did your surveyed customers say about how they come up with their gift ideas?

[00:10:46] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, well, you know, picking up directly from what Bridget was touching on earlier family and friends, right. So, you know, what we found was that about. 43% of consumers are looking to family and friends of their top sources of inspiration. You know, and I'm sure that includes, you know, [00:11:00] Facebook forums and whatnot that that hockey thing resonated.

[00:11:03] My father-in-law is an avid Giants fan. And you know if I could find the right place to source more giants gifts for him, I absolutely would. I think I've kind of exhausted what's out there. But for sure family and friends followed by being in. And you know, this is where retailers really get a chance to cultivate some of the in-store experience and make sure that it's a great place to discover new products.

[00:11:22] And then, you know,

[00:11:23] following along after that would be websites, blogs, and forums. And so, You know, obviously social media's gotten a lot better with targeting. You know, a lot of folks in their, you know, as they're scrolling their feeds are gonna you know, be presented with lots of ideas there.

[00:11:36] But one thing that I will mention that, that I found relevant is that, you know, almost 20% of shoppers really are preferring products that are sustainable or ethical. So that's a pretty important trend, and one by the way that I expect to continue, especially as you know, gen Z continues to come into more purchasing power and makes up a larger portion of the consumer base.

[00:11:55] Casey Golden: Speaking of Mary Zema and Mary Exes, I think there's a bit . Our, our, our [00:12:00] target markets have actually quite changed recently. So I heard Gen Xers spend the most money on gifts and they feel like they receive the worst gifts with 44% of them disliking what they receive. So since they're impossible to please end up the forgotten generation, let's just talk about Mary Zema and Gen in Gen Z, , because this is very interesting as like a prime.

[00:12:24] Consumer target for a lot of retailers right now is, is trying to capture those eyeballs.

[00:12:29] Ricardo Belmar: And I think as I looked through the festive forecast report, one of the things I took away is it seems like one of the indicators that younger shoppers, let's say Gen Z and millennials, are really looking to create something meaningful with gift giving versus just finding something they think will be a super interesting gift or, or item that the other person wants, which I think tends to be the way Gen Xers look, look at that concept. So I'm, I'm curious lemme go to you first. I, are you seeing trends like that reflected in your data at, to and from?

[00:12:59] Bridget Johns: [00:13:00] Yeah, a hundred percent. So we have deeply attributed all of the products that are on our, on our platform. So we have 5,000 products across 500 brands, and each of those products is attributed for all the normal things that you would expect, like size and function and form, and. All those things, but also we have attributed across values that people care about.

[00:13:21] So you're able to, you know, search for black own businesses or female female owned companies, or sustainable, or B corporation or whatever it is. And what we see is that not only do we overindex on search. With those attributes. So people are very highly interested in gifts that have a social tag attached to them, as Roan was saying before.

[00:13:46] So we're definitely seeing that. But then we also see that those products lead to when you can find the product that has that social attribute, it leads to higher conversion. So, not only are people searching them, but they're also buying [00:14:00] and we see that across Across all of our demographics. So as a proud Gen Xer gen Xers also I think are interested in finding those right those right products that match the values of themselves or for someone else.

[00:14:14] As someone once told me, he said, you know, I might know, not know what my girlfriend would like for her birthday, but I know what she's interested in. Like I know the social causes she's interested in. So it becomes this trigger that can actually help. The gift making decision, the decision making around gifting.

[00:14:32] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. That's super interesting. So, Roshan, what, what else can you tell us from the findings in the report about these generational differences in shopping and are, are there different expectations from in each demographic?

[00:14:47] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah. You know it's interesting because this is where a bunch of elements in the kind of the buyer journey may start to differ. I think, you know social media that I touched on earlier is certainly a more important influence for some of the, [00:15:00] the younger generations. I think 25% of shoppers, for example would spot gift ideas on Facebook or I.

[00:15:05] I also think that it changes a little bit of the the buying timeline, whereas older generations are likely to get more of their holidays shopping earlier. We do have you know an emphasis on the younger generations trying to, and maybe waiting more towards promotional periods and, and sometimes even you know, pushing it right up until the holidays.

[00:15:23] And so I do think that there's also a difference. Motivations, whereas older generations focus on value and making sure that the gifts are kinda targeted. There's more of an emphasis on the emotion from younger generations and kinda, you know the feelings that you know, they're creating meaningful connection.

[00:15:39] And you know there's a, a sentimentality that's attached to.

[00:15:42] Casey Golden: I like to hear that. So customers will look to family and friends for recommendations and in-store experiences and environments provide these high impact results for gift ideas. Sales may spur to get them to spend. Bridget, I can imagine disseminating customer behavior [00:16:00] during this season is difficult, and you mentioned that you have a lot of different types of tags and, and the way that you're indexing your catalogs and products.

[00:16:09] How do you look at your assortment planning and really build those recommendation builders when it's not on the customer shopping, but who the customer's shopping for? I can imagine it's much more complex.

[00:16:23] Bridget Johns: It's very complex and I think it's one of the reasons that gifting fails so often on the regular digital commerce experience. Like you don't have those normal tags that you would have in your regular life. Like we don't go shopping with our husbands anymore, like you. Walk around the mall and something catches your eye and you, your husband notices that something caught your eye just doesn't happen.

[00:16:52] So we hear stories about husbands like creeping on their wives, fa Pinterest accounts, and , all of these wacky things that people do. But at the end [00:17:00] of the day, what you really need to do is you, I, well, the way we've approached it is, Assorted based on what we know as retailers. So a team of retail experts.

[00:17:10] We've lived in brand, the brand, world merchandising world. Product world, understand the, you know, brands that we wanted to start with. And then we from there we've really led with the data, like what are customers telling us? How are they experiencing the platform? What are the things that are important to them?

[00:17:29] You know, when we started, we didn't have a like mandate around values. And as we started doing a lot of consumer testing, one of the things that we heard time and time again was that consumers, as we've talked a little bit about really were leaning into the values of the brands that we were recommending.

[00:17:47] So now I think. , probably 90% of our brands have some kind of a social tag attached to them. So if a customer is really wanting to shop their values, they're able to do that. And [00:18:00] it's the beauty of a digital business is that you can react really quickly. And we can flex up and down based on what we're hearing from our consumers and what their interests are at any given.

[00:18:10] Casey Golden: And where does all of this excitement come from? You know, why are people gifting and, and how has that changed? You, your report mentioned kind of the, the purpose behind the why of this motivation for gift giving across these different demographics and the way that they look at it or feel about it.

[00:18:31] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah. You know, what I'd say here is, is just, you know, again, to revisit why people are looking forward to the holidays. You know, the, the social connection is actually right up at the top of, of motives, right? I think we, we see a lot, especially the younger generations interested to see friends and family you know, the celebratory atmosphere.

[00:18:48] And so, you know, but to lesser extent, you know, there is a, an important component of holidays that, that is really about gifting.

[00:18:56] The good news is that in my book, you know, it's actually kind of a minority [00:19:00] that's focusing on gifting because it's expected, because it's traditional. And, and what you have instead is a big focus on showing love and care, putting a smile on somebody's face, you know, the, the, the good feeling you get from giving a gift.

[00:19:12] And so these are all things that are kind of driving some of the behaviors out there. And so, you know, I think it's, it's important for retailers to consider how they can actually enable those outcomes, right? How they can Effectively cultivate their product assortment that aligns with what will make people feel good and, and make them feel like they're able to convey that love and care.

[00:19:31] Casey Golden: A hundred percent. The the why leads to the what.

[00:19:35] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, exactly. And you know, as you, as you I hear you saying that, RO I'm, I'm thinking about the opportunity retailers have to really lean into their loyalty programs during this season to help drive some, of these gift purchases. you know, do, do you have any. Tips for retailers just based on the research findings in the study or on what you would tell 'em to do and how to leverage or how to best leverage their loyalty [00:20:00] program.

[00:20:00] Any interesting examples from some of the merchants you work with?

[00:20:03] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah. You know, that's a great question. There's a couple of high level things I think that are going on especially this year, which is, you know, obviously we've had a lot of macro things going. On with inflation you know, and you know, symmetrically what, what our report found was. Despite what's going on out there, people are still interested in spending money for the holidays.

[00:20:22] Consumers are gonna go out and the majority of them are gonna spend more. Some of them intend to spend, you know, quite a bit more. Still a very important time you know, for retailers to really think about how to reach those consumers now. But the, but the interesting aspect here is also that consumers are more than ever interested in.

[00:20:38] Given that their money is, is you know, there might, it might not buy as much as it did before, really focusing in on what's gonna be a great value. And that's not always about the dollar. It sometimes comes down to things like return policies and, you know, a bunch of other value add components that retailers can add to kind of take some of the risk outta it and, and make sure that, you know, again, dealing with some of the the unwanted gift giving you know, there's, [00:21:00] there's ways to deal with that.

[00:21:01] So, so as far as loyalty is concern I think this is a great time, especially for retailers that have oversupplied given some of the supply chain concerns and have just a lot of inventory sitting. There is a buyer out there for, for these things, right? But you may have to do a little bit more work to find them.

[00:21:17] And so I think leaning into loyalty and marketing to make sure that you're kind of targeting the right people. And, and for some retailers that means doing so in different ways. Leaning into omnichannel, leaning into, you know, social channels to promote their items is gonna be super. So here, I would say that, you know, sending out marketing messages make sure that folks are, it's not just enough to, to have the sale.

[00:21:37] People have to know about it. And, and there's, you know, a lot to choose from out there. So making sure that there's marketing messages that are promoting what's going on, keeping your brand top of mind. There was one seller that I would call out Sasha, who's the operations manager of the Chakra Shack, which is a spiritual gift shop in Laguna.

[00:21:52] They're using Square for in person online this season. They're excited about using loyalty for the first time. It's something where, you know, they are really excited to [00:22:00] see what happens with customers in terms of, you know, how motivated are they by the rewards and the discounts? How's that gonna impact the business in the long term?

[00:22:06] I really think that leaning into marketing, you know, especially with a lot of folks thinking about potential downturn next year, this is a really great time to kinda, you know focus. Refining your marketing approach because it's likely to be important for your business in the, in the coming months.

[00:22:21] Bridget Johns: Yeah, and I would just, I would just add to that, that I think when you talk about loyalty, all of the things Rashaan said a hundred percent, but you also have to think about what's the value add for your consumer. And I'm surprised, especially in the, in the digital world, how few brands offer. Gift messaging and gift wrapping.

[00:22:41] Two of the easiest things that you can do to really build loyalty for your customers and retailers, by and large fall short. Either the wrapping is terrible, there's no way to have a gift card, or it's so terrible that you wouldn't wanna use it anyhow. So just like think a little bit more [00:23:00] about what you would like as a consumer and build that into your loyalty program, I think could have a pretty tremendous impact.

[00:23:06] Casey Golden: And just to validate that I do all of my Christmas shopping at one store. Because they offer free gift wrapping, beautiful note and free shipping

[00:23:18] Ricardo Belmar: There you go.

[00:23:19] Proof

[00:23:19] Roshan Jhunja: That's amazing. I hope, I hope lots of retailers. Yeah. I hope the retailers hear

[00:23:23] that. That's loyalty. If

[00:23:24] Casey Golden: because I have a wonderful time shopping. I take it to the counter, I write my little notes and they gift wrap it and mail it out, and I'm done. And can go get a cappuccino and or a glass of wine

[00:23:37] Bridget Johns: Yeah, really.

[00:23:39] Ricardo Belmar: It's the way we all wanna shop

[00:23:40] Casey Golden: not saying where I shop .It's not for everyone.

[00:23:45] Ricardo Belmar: So I, I guess I, I want to kind of maybe switch a little bit here and talk about something, Roshan you touched on it a little bit a few moments ago, which is maybe the, in some ways the big elephant in the room for this season, which is, you know, everyone's worried about what impact of inflation may have on [00:24:00] shopping.

[00:24:00] I think you've both kind of mentioned that if, if we go by what you're seeing so far, it actually maybe doesn't seem like it's causing consumers to shop less or to buy less at least so far at this stage in the holiday season. And I wanna talk a little bit about what, what the impact of buy now pay later has on

[00:24:18] all of this , to be totally honest about it, right? Casey and I talked about this way back into our predictions episode at the start of the year, and we probably weren't the, the kindest people towards the, the category of type of payments and that, you know, our prediction was that there was gonna be a lot of consolidation in that space and that there was a risk that, you know, there may be regulators looking at what the impact on savings and consumers in general was gonna be, and I suppose you could make an argument that, you know, after pay becoming part of Square kind of speaks to that consolidation piece of it. But I think for the most part, all the other things we predicted on this one really haven't come to pass. And I think the momentum is still there behind buy now pay later.

[00:24:54] So what I wanted to get into, and, and you have some interesting data on this in, in [00:25:00] the report, Roshan, on what impact, let's maybe start with the merchant side of it, you know, does offering B NPL to consumers, but both online and in store and across channels, what impact is that having this season on consumers either, either ability to buy their propensity to want to buy from a retailer that offers it, for example, versus one that's not?

[00:25:20] Or what interesting trends are you seeing?

[00:25:22] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, it's great. It's a great lead in to say that you know, there were some predictions about this particular service and you know, looking at how it's been faring, I think is honestly, you know, the most important. And that is It's only increasing in terms of its importance for consumers, you know, and I think most online shoppers you know, have heard about it at this point.

[00:25:40] And increasing more online shoppers this year, plan to use by now, later compared to last year from the, from the seller's standpoint from people that are offering this as a service. A hundred percent. Believe that it's going to help them with the, the younger demographics. So like the Gen Z you know, who are more, have a higher propensity to use by now, pay later.

[00:25:57] You know, those are consumers that are citing an [00:26:00] interest in budgeting and immediacy, right? So, so wanting to actually have the item in hand at the moment. So being able to reach newer shoppers and I. We have seen this with more traction online for sure. But a lot of in-store retailers, what they're finding is that the need to have a coherent experience, you know, across channels.

[00:26:16] This is the kind promise of omnichannel and always has been, is that, you know, your, and your ability to transact. Extends across all the various, you know, in-store, omnichannel, social, you meet your customer where they're in a consistent way. They know what to expect from you. And so I think that's a really important translation to make sure that, you know, those customers that maybe found you online or discovered you on social you know, have the same experience when they come to visit your store.

[00:26:39] And, and that's just, you know, a powerful consistency and, and coherence kinda. But in terms of discovery a hundred percent. You know, there's a, there's a really impactful, you know, for, for the fa the fans of B now pay later who are looking to discover more sellers. I think there's several tools including you know, with Square and Afterpay, where you can actually use buy now

[00:26:58] after pay supporting sellers [00:27:00] to kind of filter and discover who else out there might be able to support you with this really powerful buying mechanism.

[00:27:07] You know, I think the stats are, are pretty telling here. It did start in Australia there, you know, there was you know, it skyrocketed in terms of its penetration both for consumers and, and of course for sellers. And in the US it is continuing to take off. We have now one in eight shoppers that would sign up for a buy now pay later service.

[00:27:23] Like I said earlier, you know, it's trending up in terms of the number of online shoppers planning to use buy now, pay later, like after pay. So again, it's it's, it's here. I think the inflation inflationary impacts are an extra tailwind because you know, more people are looking to smooth the, the impact of their purchases and, and it helps a lot with budget planning.

[00:27:40] Ricardo Belmar: Let's move into, talking about sales channels , one of the biggest recent debates going on in, the media about retail has to do with e-commerce, of course, since the pandemic taking over in store shopping is, is it true, is it not true? What, what's happened with social commerce? How does this all compare to the numbers of [00:28:00] people shopping in store versus these other digital channels and, and which one is likely to come out on top as the dominant format?

[00:28:07] Which in some ways, I think a lot of times what consumers want gets lost in the noise. When we read about all this, all these reports in the media. So Roshan lemme start with you on this one. You know, given that this popular narrative right now for so long, and again, because of the pandemic, is that e-commerce was just gonna leapfrog all this growth.

[00:28:25] Massive growth stores would close and suffer. Of course, it turns out that didn't happen. consumers are still going to stores and I think we're seeing in, in a surge now in consumers wanting to. In store and get that experience. you had some interesting in the surveys to both consumers, I think, and to your, your merchants about this.

[00:28:41] What, what can you tell us and about what's happening here?

[00:28:44] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, I think you know, some of what we found in the survey was that Americans are most likely to get their gifts at online marketplace. You know, followed by discount department stores and superstores. One of the interesting things about this point you made about online is that in fact what we saw post pandemic was a lot of folks [00:29:00] interested to go back and reconnect with that in-store shopping experience.

[00:29:03] And so, you know, while there was a very pronounced immediate shift when folks had no other option, we definitely saw it kinda rebound back to a place where people. Still value in store. Now, one of the most exciting trends to me personally is experiential retail, where, you know, interestingly from a staffing perspective, we've found that as brick and mortar retailers are adding staff to with in buyers to stores.

[00:29:26] Who they're adding is actually, you know, baristas and, and more of this experiential aspect of, you know, coffee with your, your retail purchase. I know Casey values that, especially when she's done wrapping things up. You know, but, but it's kind of the, the retail store, the, the brick and mortar retail store as like a, a core component of your your neighborhood and your c.

[00:29:46] And being a destination for folks you know, to get more than just a product. You know, also, you know, for bookstores doing book signings or, or music or, or coffee shops. And so I think that's in my mind one of the more powerful drivers of the channel mix is in store for discovery, [00:30:00] but also for experience.

[00:30:01] But in terms of, you know, the, the, the buyer journey, this is an interesting one. It's not as cut and dry. You, you, you alluded to, you know, there's a lot of predictions out there in the media. It's not as cut and dry as you know, Hey, all, every, you know, online's gonna eat everything or social's gonna eat everything.

[00:30:15] I think what we see instead is that discovery may happen in one place and that sometimes can be like social media More information often happens with, you know, researching, you know, product listings, maybe going in store to touch and feel and try something out, and the actual purchase may happen at yet a later time, whether that's via, you know, a conversational commerce with you know, the seller, like texting them, you know, what, I actually did decide to buy that thing.

[00:30:38] Or, you know, maybe hitting the website. And so really it kind of this is, you know, the emergent omnichannel nature of, of shopping, right? It's kinda like your discovery to your. Finding more information to your ultimate purchase, and then even your return may all be at different places and at different times.

[00:30:54] And so that's that kinda you know, in some senses muddies the waters, but but also make it more important to have a, [00:31:00] a coherent strategy of a presence across all the, your buyers wanted to. But in terms of the. The other point you raised on which social platform is it gonna be and, you know what's kind of most compelling?

[00:31:12] I don't think that that there is a, a right answer to it. I think it has a lot to do with generational preference. I think there's always gonna be some social media platform or right around the corner, many of whom are trying to keep people on the platform. And by this I mean, if you are a retail seller one of the things that we're always encouraging folks to do is try to the grave you can to drive that purchase back to your site.

[00:31:33] And the reason for this, Your ability to kind of have the customer information and to you know, be able to market to them is, is greatly diminished if, if it's, you know, entirely transacting outside of you know on a different e-commerce property. Right? And so there's also, there's a hundred percent powerful convenience, but this is where.

[00:31:51] Being very deliberate about your strategy. Which products are you going to sell, and which channels and which marketplaces, and what, how then will you draw your [00:32:00] consumer back to learn more about your full assortment in, you know, on your website or in your store? I think that's an increasingly important strategy for, for all retailers to think about.

[00:32:08] Casey Golden: are you seeing any trends around that buy online, pickup in store? I mean, I haven't had a lot of success with. That personally, but I know that it's been had huge growth over the, the pandemic and if it's carrying on here through holiday season.

[00:32:22] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, I think it's one of these things that along with the shift to e-commerce, the, the buy line pickup in store, buy. Buy online and return in store as well are here to stay. I don't think again that they're at the levels of engagement when there was no other option. But for sure we see increasingly retailers asking for ways to support this and looking for solutions that help them support you know, that flexibility of buy online and, and, and coming back to.

[00:32:46] Casey Golden: I found it quite interesting that the report found that like 53% of customers are planning to purchase gifts online compared to in-store. But it still sounds like. E-commerce matters just as much as in store and you almost can't [00:33:00] operate one without the other. How do you see this with your reports and then just experience with Square being able to understand how that customer's buying online and in store.

[00:33:09] Is there like certain KPIs that this is increasing, that it's 50 50? Is it 30%? Just kind of curious what, what that looks like from an omnichannel perspective.

[00:33:19] With Square you have a really unique visibility to how much omnichannel business is driving each other.

[00:33:26] Being able to track that customer from in-store purchases, online purchases. What does it look like? in the past has been kind of like a black hole and we just make assumptions. But you have a unique perspective.

[00:33:38] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah. So what I would say here is I find that this varies a lot by the types of seller you know, with with our Square for retail offering, we tend to concentrate a lot on apparel. Where, where we see that a lot of discovery is happening online. We were just talking to hot Sam in Detroit.

[00:33:51] A week or two ago, and they were describing how discovery online is a really important component of the, the buyer journey, but ultimately coming into the store [00:34:00] to engage with staff, to, to finalize that purchase, make sure that the, the fitting and whatnot is right. And, and that experience will be different for something that's a little bit more commoditized and not as bespoke.

[00:34:10] You know, that requires kinda the assistance of an in store person. And so something like electronics or home goods, what we find is that there's a lot of folks who are willing to transact online. So the answer unfortunately isn't you know, as straightforward, although I, I will say that I, you know, they continue to be equally important channels.

[00:34:27] You know, like you said before, you've got 53% of consumers planning to purchase. Gifts online compared to in store, that that's kinda an equal mix. And so really it, it goes back to that omnichannel journey that I mentioned where I think consumers really want a blend of online and in person experiences so they can purchase the way they want depending on what its, and you know, what they need in that moment.

[00:34:47] Ricardo Belmar: So Bridget, obviously to and from focuses on the e-commerce experience and as you told us at, at the beginning of our session that, you know, you were looking to change things around [00:35:00] on, on solving discovery issues and gifting. , I'm sure you are now, you know, obviously well into the holiday season, seeing a increase in site visits and searches, et cetera.

[00:35:09] What, what can you tell us about some of the unique trends you're seeing there? And I'm curious. How are consumers finding your site when they start their search for.

[00:35:18] Bridget Johns: Yeah, so I think there are a few things that are important. I, you know, said before that you have to be where the consumer is. And for us that means being very precise about how we communicate to them. So we've talked a little bit about how we attribute and about how we organize our products to be able to.

[00:35:35] Really dial into the occasion and the relationship and the preferences of the person receiving the gift. So because we've built our system to because we've built to and from, to allow for that, it allows us to be very precise in our marketing so we can very easily. Create a blog post about, you know, my sister who lives in a mid-century modern house who loves gardening.

[00:35:58] So you can bring these [00:36:00] like disparate attributes together and create a very quickly create a list of gifts that will be appropriate for that person. And what that allows us to do is it allows us to meet the customer where they, where they are. To very specific Facebook group or whether it's a creator that's focused on a particular segment or topic or whatever it is.

[00:36:20] And we've had a lot of success just being able to, to be so precise with the, the data and the assortment.

[00:36:26] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, so you really do kind, kind of play on the whole discovery piece by creating these kind of interesting, inspirational moments of, of discovery. I, I would describe,

[00:36:36] Bridget Johns: Yeah, and we do that across lots of different channels because customers are everywhere. So, you know, for one particular customer it might be a Facebook group for another customer, it might be a creator that's focused on gift wrapping and really like dialing into their audience and the. The types of people who like to follow their content, whatever it is.

[00:36:55] So it's been like a really, a really interesting journey for me having lived my whole life in brick and [00:37:00] mortar to start being able to really dial into these little micro moments in a impactful way.

[00:37:06] Ricardo Belmar: So Roshan mentioned this or touched on a little bit earlier and some of the sources of inspiration, I mentioned social media and that always makes me think about social commerce in general. So I, I'm curious, Bridget, what opportunity you see in the social commerce space in particular what you're doing at, to and from.

[00:37:24] Bridget Johns: Yeah, I mean, it's been obviously a big important conversation for us, and I think there is so, so much interesting retail happening in the social commerce space, having, you know, Having studied retail for, you know, all of my career as, you know, I think being able to tap into that's critically important because it's such an important place for consumers and where they are and what they expect.

[00:37:48] What we've done for this holiday season is we've allowed, we're allowing a beset of creators to create these custom gift lists that then they can kind of manage and share to their audience. So they can be pro, [00:38:00] you know, products from our assortment, but they can also be products that they. Think are interesting as gifts and we've given them some really good tools and the feedback has been very good so far.

[00:38:10] We'll see through the holiday. Like I said, it's just a test we just launched in June, so we, you know, are still learning along the way. But we think

[00:38:17] that, you know, giving tools to creators and, you know, having more visibility for social commerce, we think is important and will continue to be, you know, a growth area over time.

[00:38:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I have to agree with that as a, as a growth area for.

[00:38:30] Bridget Johns: Yeah,

[00:38:31] Ricardo Belmar: so makes me think, you know, timing is everything. and so back in holiday 2020, I, I wrote an article for the Robin Report about the death of Black Friday. And yes, it was meant to shock readers quite a bit. but my point was that Black Friday didn't really need to live on the way we're all used to thinking of it given how consumers started shopping so much earlier in the season, and frankly, how that actually helps retailers manage their inventory better and, and their pricing and discount structure for the season, particularly when we keep running [00:39:00] into these never ending supply chain challenges.

[00:39:02] Roha, let me ask you, I mean, one of the findings I noted in the report where that. Younger generations might kind of spring into action with Black Friday and, and, and maybe Cyber Monday as well and get more shopping done. Whereas maybe, you know, gen Xer is like myself and maybe older generations, we might move a little slower and leave the holiday shopping for later and, and end up, you know, doing a lot more of that shopping in December.

[00:39:27] Is there really a difference in timing for when each generation starts shopping from the findings you have and, and how should retailers react to thi

[00:39:35] Roshan Jhunja: s?

[00:39:35] Yeah, it's a, it's a great question on the timing. You know, for a while I think we all know that there was a bit of concern that the, the windows kept stretching earlier and, and, you know, are we gonna eat Thanksgiving dinners or are we just gonna go straight to the stores that day? And so I think what's interesting here is that, you know, we know that three quarters of Americans are gonna have their holiday shopping.

[00:39:53] By December 1st. And so there's, it's more crucial than ever to kind of get started. Here we are in November you know, almost [00:40:00] halfway through it. And you know, I think Casey said she was already done. So you know, there's definitely evidence for, for starting earlier. That's not to say that folks won't be purchasing later in the season.

[00:40:08] We do know that one in six are gonna start purchasing in earlier December, but by the time you get to mid-December, it's only one in 12. One of the ways to think about this is it makes it crucial to start your marketing as early as possible and to, to target on the channels that you think are important to get visibility out there.

[00:40:25] But also it all is not lost, right? Black Friday, I think the term originated from, you know, retailers, you know, that might be in the red all year. Finally get into the black as they get into the holiday season. And so, you know, all is not lost if you kind of miss those early windows. I think still in December what you get is a lot of last minute shopping folks are, are still, like I said, there's a lot of consumer purchasing power out there.

[00:40:45] So there's still a big windows opportunity to think about, you know, what inventory you have that you were interested in moving during the holiday season. And again, just continue to lean into marketing and discounting and make sure that you can reach those consumers that are trying to finish up their.

[00:40:59] Casey Golden: said that [00:41:00] we weren't gonna focus on like the typical holiday retail trends that everybody else talks about. But what can I say? Like, show me the money we have to say a little bit before we close on what sales expectations are. Right. Ro in the report it says that 44% of retailers expect sales to grow this season.

[00:41:19] Another 20% expect everything to remain pretty flat. Putting you on the spot here, how much of this do you think is due to inflation prices? Especially considering the expectations of heavy discounting? What's, what's kind of your prediction here?

[00:41:35] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, you know, It's, it's a good thing. You know, you let in with a follow of the money. Best I can tell folks are still spending and, and it's surprising in some ways because, you know, there is a lot going on. There's a lot of uncertainty and turbin in the world, but consumers are still spending.

[00:41:49] And so really what I think, you know, in terms of retailers, they're kind of keyed into this and they know that you know, that there's still you know, transactions that folks are, are interested in. Some of the stats that we cited [00:42:00] earlier where there are significant portions of the consumer base that is going to spend more than last year.

[00:42:04] Some of them ex expect to spend quite a bit more. You know, that right there is your inflationary answer. Even though those dollars are buying less, they're going to spend more of those dollars to make sure they can get the gifting done that they wanna do. And so, you know, yes, there's expectations in heavy discounting.

[00:42:19] I would expect that to skew more towards the larger retailers. We've all seen headlines, whether it be Target, and you know you know, Some of the other folks that really leaned heavily into supply chain by overstocking. But I would say for smaller retailers, I don't know that there's gonna be as aggressive ing.

[00:42:34] We do know that, you know, most folks in order to be moved by a discount, it needs to be 20% or more right. For them to even consider that changing their behavior. But here I would expect that I expect that retailers are still gonna see a lot of strong purchasing this holiday season.

[00:42:48] Casey Golden: Bridget, I'm not gonna let you escape this one either. What is your overall hot take on sales this season? I come from a world of luxury, so there's no discounts on designer handbags. They're under the trees , [00:43:00] but.

[00:43:03] Bridget Johns: Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting. I mean, I have been really impressed with actually the transparency from brands particularly the direct to consumer brands where they have. Not started their discounting, but they have told you they're going to start it. So you get an email that says, our friends and family or our Black Friday is going to start on this day, sign up to be on the list.

[00:43:25] So it automatically puts it in your mind and you're like, okay. Like I, to me, that is one of the biggest shifts in email marketing. I haven't seen it and. Past years where you're getting like proactive notifications that the, you always know the sale is coming, but for D to C brands to be like, okay, next Friday we're gonna have 20% off, so be ready, or, you know, get early on the list.

[00:43:47] I think it's super interesting this season. And I, I agree with Roshan. I like, I think it's going to be like flat to up. I don't think it's gonna be down.

[00:43:56] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. I think everyone will be happy to hear

[00:43:59] Bridget Johns: I [00:44:00] also don't, I also don't, but I also don't think it's gonna feel like a win

[00:44:03] because I think retailers are gonna have to work so hard to get that flat up that it's gonna feel very painful.

[00:44:11] Casey Golden: Very painful. I mean, we're not really used to this holiday rush. Right. And if they're. They're budgeting their staff and increasing their budgets on the experiential associates. In moments like baristas rather than store staff. I think we can expect that there's gonna be some longer lines. Longer hours, rather than hiring more staff.

[00:44:30] Everybody's just gonna be working longer, so, Take it easy on everybody working in

[00:44:35] stores this season. Be kind, find your patience. Bring your own hot cocoa

[00:44:42] Ricardo Belmar: That's

[00:44:42] right.

[00:44:42] Casey Golden: if you have to.

[00:44:43] Ricardo Belmar: telling stat, maybe what we're all gonna look at after the season is what was the margin pressure for retailers? So wherever the sales end up, I, I think even if we all say it's flat to up how, much of those dollars, you know, translated into [00:45:00] margin for retail, I think that's gonna be the, the big question.

[00:45:02] So, to close this out today, Roshan, If you could leave our retailers retailing listeners your top holiday tip, what would it be.

[00:45:11] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, look a lot of what we covered today, including omnichannel and wanting to meet buyers where they are as well as making sure that you're leveraging your discounting. I think you really have to lean into the data. Here the top tip I have is to make sure that your inventory management system, your, your catalog management is up to date.

[00:45:29] You can lean heavily into those reports, right? So, you know, one of the things that Square's been doing to empower retailers is to make sure that we allow you to have insights into your data where, you know, to your point on margins, right, and your costs are good, sold. But also, you know, what's selling, you know, what are your velocities like, and, and what should you do as a result?

[00:45:43] And maybe the things that are moving less quickly need more aggressive discounting. So I would say that the, the more you can leverage digitizing your catalog and inventory information, the less, like the more able you are to sell effectively online. The less likely you are to run out of inventory unexpectedly, right?

[00:45:58] And, and those dreaded outta stock [00:46:00] moments. And most importantly, you can leverage that reporting. You can learn from what you're, if you've been doing this for a year, you can learn from last year to project, you know, how you need to run this holiday season. Or you can leverage what's happening now to predict the future.

[00:46:11] And so I would say really emphasize leaning on your, your digital systems to kinda power you through this holiday.

[00:46:18] Casey Golden: So to bring us back to the present. Pun intended. Bridget for everyone starting to shop. I mean, you've got quite a special destination for gifting at to and from, but what are the hottest items under the tree this season? What does everybody want? What are people buying?

[00:46:35] Bridget Johns: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I have like the hot take. This is the gift because we're all about that personalized gift that's very specific to you. But we do see gifting breaking down into three very distinct categories. Val values led not value, but values led gifting. So what is important to the person you're gifting for?

[00:46:56] I think the second area that we haven't really talked about, but I think is [00:47:00] very important, and it's. Been a bit of a trick I think from retailers is personalization. Cause you can't return something that's personalized. So I think like the personalization has been very key in finding ways to make those gifts feel even more special.

[00:47:16] And then the third trend that we're seeing are gifts that really help you spend time together as a family. I think that's something that has continued post covid. Like people have learned that they actually like spending time with their family. And I think that trend.

[00:47:30] Actually continues. Like I think that's not something that has gone away.

[00:47:34] So I would say those are the three areas. And then, you know, if you're a mid-century modern lover who, you know, likes gardening, you're gonna get something very different than the hockey mom.

[00:47:45] Ricardo Belmar: That's very true. Very true. Well, Bridget, Roshan, this has been a fantastic discussion. We can't thank you enough for joining us today for our holiday shopping special episode. We covered so much ground. I can't believe how time has run out on us so [00:48:00] quickly.

[00:48:00] Roshan Jhunja: Yeah, I had a fantastic time chatting with you all. Thanks for having me on.

[00:48:04] Bridget Johns: Yeah, I really enjoyed it, so it was a lot of fun.

[00:48:06] Casey Golden: Thank you both for joining us. This show is a wrap

[00:48:10] Closing Wishes

[00:48:10] Casey Golden: wrapping up this holiday special edition retail razor show and wishing our guests and listeners a very merry holiday. We hope you slay your sales targets and delight your customers this festive season.

[00:48:22] Show Close

[00:48:22] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden.

[00:48:54] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore [00:49:00] Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:49:10] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:49:11] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter until next time, this is the retail razor show.

Wondering how retail businesses are strategizing to enhance the role of physical stores for a more festive shopping journey this holiday season? What sales impact will Gen Z and millennials have this season? To find out, we asked two of our favorite commerce experts to share their insights and help us unwrap this holiday season’s mysteries! Roshan Jhunja, head of retail at Square, and Andrew Lipsman, principal analyst for retail & ecommerce at Insider Intelligence join hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden for an enlightening analysis of the 2023 holiday shopping season!

We explore the unpredictable behaviors of consumers since the pandemic and examine consumer and seller sentiment going into Black Friday and Cyber Monday. We also consider the evolving dynamics of mobile and social commerce, AI, the continued importance of omnichannel, and Buy Now Pay Later, touching on established e-commerce giants and up and coming platforms. The conversation also reviews how businesses strategies have shifted regarding staffing and technology augmentations, and the implications of such changes on customer experience.

There’s much to unwrap in this episode and it’s all covered in less than 50 minutes!

Reports mentioned in the podcast:

Square and Afterpay Festive Forecast 2023: https://squareup.com/us/en/press/festive-forecast-2023

Insider Intelligence Holiday Shopping 2023 Forecast: https://content-na1.emarketer.com/holiday-shopping-2023

NEWS! We are pleased to announce that the Retail Razor Show is a Vendors In Partnership Awards nominee for The Retail Voice Award at the upcoming NRF Big Show 2024! We're asking all our listeners and YouTube viewers to help us win by showing your love for our show in the voting polls:

Here's how you can help by voting:

1. Visit https://bit.ly/3QlKr4X

2. Register to vote.

3. Vote for The Retail Razor Show in The Retail Voice Award category.

WOW! As we zoom past our 2-year anniversary on the show, we’re honored and humbled to have hit the top of the charts on the Goodpods podcast platform!

We can’t thank our Goodpods listeners enough! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Made It On Stream (Xmas), from the album Lo-Fi Christmas, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. Incldues sound effects provided by Free Sounds Library.

The Retail Razor Show

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Interested in the metaverse and need to know how to get started? Meet Alan Smithson, founder of MetaVrse, multiple TED Talk speaker, and builder of “The Mall” in the metaverse, but not just any mall! If there were a hundred-page encyclopedia of the metaverse, Alan would fill every page but you’d still need more room to cover his vast knowledge of all things metaverse. It’s season 2, episode 4, and we’re continuing our Retail Transformers series – you’ll see why Alan Smithson is truly more than meets the eye!

Alan tells you what you need to get started with the metaverse, but takes us on an even deeper journey that touches on the future of jobs in digital technologies, how education needs to change to keep up, how the metaverse could make the world a better place, and of course, why shopping should be fun again! Plus, we’ll learn why asking children what they want to be when they grow up is the wrong question to ask. The real question is …

News alert! We’re back at #20 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list, so please keep those 5-star reviews in Apple Podcasts coming! With your help, we’ll move our way further up the Top 20! Leave us a review and be mentioned in a future episode! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E4 Retail Transformers - Alan Smithson

[00:00:00] Pre-Show Intro

[00:00:00] Alan Smithson: Good morning. Retail Razor. No, maybe too much. 

[00:00:05] Ricardo Belmar: actually we might, we might use that at the, in the intro beginning. 

[00:00:07] That was pretty 

[00:00:08] Good. ..That 

[00:00:09] Alan Smithson: like bit connect . I wanna go to a crypto conference and start doing that. Bit connect

[00:00:17] Ricardo Belmar: Now that would be fun to see. 

[00:00:19] Alan Smithson: Too early maybe. Okay. We'll just start now. 

[00:00:21] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. All right, here we go. Here we go. 

[00:00:23]

[00:00:23] Introduction

[00:00:23] Ricardo Belmar: hello, and welcome to season two, episode four of the Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:49] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome Retail Razor Show listeners to retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike.

[00:01:01] Ricardo Belmar: And we have a truly special treat this week. Following up from our season debut episode on the Metaverse, we are back to talk more metaverse this week, aren't we?

[00:01:10] Casey Golden: Yes, and I'm excited. Our listeners and viewers should be excited because this week we're not only talking Metaverse, but we're continuing our Retail Transformer series with special guest, Alan Smithson, founder and CEO of the company, Metaverse.

[00:01:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yes. Our faithful followers will learn exactly why Alan is 'more than meets the eye'.

[00:01:31] Casey Golden: Aww, you're gonna use that line, every time for these series, aren't you?

[00:01:35] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely, a hundred percent. I am totally here for that.

[00:01:39] Casey Golden: Okay, so let's talk about Alan. There are few people in the early days of the Metaverse that can talk in depth about what retailers need to look at when building their metaverse strategy.

[00:01:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, when we first talked to Alan, you know, when he first came to one of our clubhouse rooms, I was really impressed. And just like you said, he's got the knowledge about the metaverse. We'll also hear about his solution, the mall, that he's building, that will really change how retailers look at the metaverse.

[00:02:03] And listeners or viewers are gonna come away with a really smart plan on, on how to attack the metaverse and get experimenting right away, just like we predicted back in season one episode four.

[00:02:13] Casey Golden: And experimenting, and experimenting, trying things out is a matter of showing up and learning how to experiment. Alan hits on all of these topics and more honestly, each episode this season has been incredibly informative, but our guest energy is solid, true innovators. I don't know how we keep doing this from one episode to another, but keep those notepads handy.

[00:02:35] You'll need it.

[00:02:37] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. I mean, we could go on and on about all the juicy details Alan will talk about, but I think I can sum it up by saying if you were gonna write a hundred page Encyclopedia of the Metaverse, Alan would be on page one all the way through page 100, and you'd probably be asking for more pages after that.

[00:02:54] Casey Golden: Agreed, so let's get to it then. Our interview with Alan Smithson co-founder of MetaVrse. 

[00:03:04] AlanSmithson Interview

[00:03:04] Ricardo Belmar: And we are here with our very special guest, Alan Smithson, co-founder of the company MetaVrse, whose mission is to enable creation in the Metaverse for everyone. Following from our clubhouse session in our season one opener on the Metaverse and one of what's likely to be many more discussions we'll have on the metaverse going forward.

[00:03:23] Alan, welcome to the Retail Razor Show. 

[00:03:25] Alan Smithson: Thank you so much, Ricardo and Casey. Thanks for having me. This is so, so exciting. You know, we we got to meet in person before these things, which is super cool, you know, and normally it's the other way around. You do all these podcasts and things, and then you finally meet somebody, you're like, Oh, yeah.

[00:03:38] So it's really great to see some familiar faces and, and dive into the, the Occam's razor of retail .

[00:03:46] Ricardo Belmar: exactly

[00:03:47] Casey Golden: I'm so glad to see you Allen and having you here with us this morning. I'm just really excited to catch up and learn what's been going on since the last time we saw each other. 

[00:03:59] We're 

[00:03:59] Alan Smithson: many things. 

[00:04:00] Casey Golden: right. We're not casting from the, the metaverse yet. But who knows? This time next year, a seismic shift is taking 

[00:04:06] Alan Smithson: time next week we're gonna be releasing some cool stuff and we built in full video chat capabilities into our project. So we'll get into that later. But yeah, the three pushed some technology that will allow us to do this inside of virtual world.

[00:04:21] Casey Golden: Interesting. Yes. Experiences on the internet are expected to be more immersive, three dimensional and virtual with the realization of web three . I believe the metaverse will will play , an integral role in product discovery and brand experiences.

[00:04:36] Some people are saying it's dead and now it's like coming back. Some people said it's, this is just natural traction. So I mean, I think we're all here for the dips and we're all here for the eyes.

[00:04:47] Alan Smithson: I really love the articles that say, you know, the Meta versus Dead or, you know, these are the same articles that in 10 years from now, people will look back and go, Oh yeah, you, you're the guy who wrote the internet as dead article. Good for you. You know, that really inspired a whole generation of people to build the internet, so, 

[00:05:04] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, it's like how many years ago when everybody was saying physical retail was dead,

[00:05:09] Alan Smithson: I mean, yeah, like you can say everything's dead. Look, when we invented tv, people said, Oh, this is gonna replace radio. Every car still has a radio in it. 

[00:05:20] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. 

[00:05:21] Alan Smithson: like, radio didn't go away. It just changed and morphed. And you know, now we, now we have Spotify. Okay, maybe radio is not the primary thing, but it never died.

[00:05:32] You know, TVs didn't go away when we got the internet. You know computers didn't go away when we got mobile phones. And, you know, mobile phones aren't going away anytime when we get VR and, and AR glasses. So, you know, adding new mediums does not necessarily mean that you, the other one fades away and dies, you know, it just becomes another medium.

[00:05:51] There's, , let's say 10 years ago you had, I don't know, a billion people on the internet. Now we have 4 billion people on the Internet. Like, you know, the, the time right now is, is explosive growth. I mean, companies are raising, hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, tens and then hundreds of millions of dollars for internet technologies and metaverse technologies and web three technologies.

[00:06:14] You know, this is just the money going in to invest to the future. So, I mean, we're in for a, a really, really interesting next, I guess, eight years now that we're almost kind of at the end of 2022. , By the end of this decade, the world will look very different than it does today,

[00:06:30] Ricardo Belmar: Oh yeah. Yeah,

[00:06:31] Casey Golden: I agree with that a hundred percent.

[00:06:33] Ricardo Belmar: so, 

[00:06:34] Alan Smithson: none of the things will be dead.

[00:06:35] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. No, none. None of it. We're just keep adding more and more I think as we're gonna get 

[00:06:39] into 

[00:06:39] Alan Smithson: more people coming on the

[00:06:40] internet and more 

[00:06:41] Casey Golden: I'm 

[00:06:41] all 

[00:06:41] Alan Smithson: I like reading. 

[00:06:42] Casey Golden: web, like 6.0 already, right?

[00:06:45] Alan Smithson: Why don't we have six G? I mean, my 5G phone doesn't really do anything for me. I'm like, 5g. I still have no signal. What the heck?

[00:06:55] Casey Golden: It's still a marketing boy.

[00:06:57] Alan Smithson: I bought a big phone that folds in half so that I can have all the things

[00:07:02] Ricardo Belmar: And you're still waiting. And you're still 

[00:07:04] Alan Smithson: That's the wait. I still

[00:07:05] Ricardo Belmar: so 

[00:07:06] Alan Smithson: but the technology's getting super fast. The the one thing that's exciting that. Most people are consuming the internet on a mobile phone now. Mobile phones and computers are the kind of dominant, but mobile phones kind of leapfrogged and it's places like Africa. They, they just bypass computers altogether and just went straight to phones.

[00:07:22] Same with China. And so the phone technology is

[00:07:25] Casey Golden: say, with 10 year olds,

[00:07:27] Alan Smithson: exactly. 10 year olds in the Chinese, they, they just bypass computers all together.

[00:07:32] Ricardo Belmar: Right. 

[00:07:33] Alan Smithson: But yeah, the, the world is using mobile phones to access the internet, and the mobile phones are getting so good. You know, the iPhone 14 came out y. These things are super, super computers now.

[00:07:45] I mean, if you, One of the people that I, I really think highly of is a guy that runs this company called Otoy. They're a rendering engine and I can't remember the guy's name, but they came up with this concept of the render token. This was way before the whole crypto craze, and they said, What if we could tap into everybody's phone and computer and do batch rendering around the world?

[00:08:06] So let's say Disney as a project, right? And they, you know, they need 500 servers to, to run this, you know scene of a Disney movie. Well, can't we then just push it out to a thousand phones, Have everybody, you know use the GPUs that are bit, you know, kinda sitting idle for most of the time on your phone.

[00:08:22] Can we leverage that and then pay people for, for using this idle time on their phones?

[00:08:27] seem to take off because I think it was a bit early, but that ability to tap into the billions of smartphones and computers out there and the processing power that is sitting idle, I think is going to be a key part of the metaverse moving forward in, in kind of the long term strategy. I mean, this is not, it's not an overnight thing. Nobody's really figured it out yet. But if we can do that, you think of how many computers around the world we could tap into for ai, for modeling, for protein folding for, you know, the good of mankind.

[00:08:55] We can really use these these idle devices that are sitting idle for, you know, let's say most people, their phones are only sitting idle while they sleep, but

[00:09:04] you know, it's, eight hours of sleep, depending on who you are. Casey, who only sleeps four hours a night,

[00:09:12] What is MetaVrse & The Mall

[00:09:12] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Well, Alan, so, diving into this space a little bit more, tell us a little more about what Metaverse is in your company and what you're doing and what you're and what that means for retailers and brands.

[00:09:24] Alan Smithson: So we we started a company called Metaverse back in 2016, spelled M e t A V R s E, you know, for the vr idea, we built all sorts of projects in, in virtual, augmented, mixed reality, and 3d. We've done over 160 projects now but we've done everything from building retail locations virtual stores.

[00:09:43] We've done virtual showrooms for automotive. We have built virtual training for, for medical, for consumer electronics. We did a lot of work for Samsung where we took their their new phone models, actually including this one, and then we animated them opening and you could turn it around and, you know, look inside and all this stuff.

[00:09:59] We did a bunch of stuff for Samsung. We built virtual showrooms for MasterCard, but all of these things were actually built on our own engine. And so over the years we actually were building and working on our. What you would call a game engine or a creation platform. So similar to Unity and Unreal we have our own base, you know, rendering technology that allows us to render directly to the internet, directly to a web browser on a mobile phone.

[00:10:24] So one of the, the claims to fame for us is that we have a low code, easy to create platform that bypasses the app stores. We actually don't have to go through Apple or Google. We just hit publish. It goes to a browser and works on any device. So this is super powerful and we really set up a goal in mind to build a platform that would let anybody participate and create in the Metaverse.

[00:10:47] And so our mission is Metaverse creation for every. That's you know, that's always kind of been our ethos. It used to be XR creation for everyone, and then the whole world moved to the word metaverse. So we're like, Okay, well I guess we should jump on the bandwagon. Even though we started the bandwagon,

[00:11:01] Casey Golden: What was xr 

[00:11:02] Alan Smithson: virtual augmented mixed reality or XR or extended reality is like a

[00:11:06] Ricardo Belmar: yeah,

[00:11:06] so it mixed, all of it

[00:11:08] Alan Smithson: Yeah, I mean, we, we were all in on xr. We did the XR for Business podcast. We did the XR for Learning podcast. We did XR collaboration, which is a whole thing on, you know, collaboration platform. . We really, truly thought the whole world was going to xr and then outta nowhere Zuckerberg said, Hey, we're gonna be called Meta.

[00:11:24] And the whole world went to Metaverse and we're like, Oh, well it's a good thing. We called our name That, and applied for the trademark before then

[00:11:30] Ricardo Belmar: Ha. Good thing.

[00:11:31] What moment led to creating MetaVrse?

[00:11:31] Casey Golden: What was that one moment? Where you're just, cuz you've had some other businesses, you've had some worked in some other spaces. But what was that, that moment? Was there a special aha moment or something where 

[00:11:44] Alan Smithson: yeah. 

[00:11:44] Casey Golden: you're just like, I'm gonna build like the next version of the world,

[00:11:48] Alan Smithson: It was a combination of things. Casey, honestly, it we owned a, a DJ product company called Emulator where it was a big glass, see-through touchscreen that you could play on and you could perform, but the crowd could see what you're doing cuz it was a see through piece of glass that you were DJing on.

[00:12:01] We worked with, you know, infected Mushroom and Morgan page. And actually just recently a year ago Jean Michelle Jarre did a huge New Year's Eve virtual New Year's Eve party. It was huge. 7 million people attended and he used our emulator on stage in the virtual world as well.

[00:12:15] So, I mean, we built this piece of tech.

[00:12:17] We brought it to the world. We were working with big artists. And then we unfortunately brought on the wrong investor and so we lost that company. But right before that happened, I got invited to perform at Curiosity Camp by Eric Schmidt. And Eric Schmidt is, you know, obviously the former CEO of Google and he has this camp that everybody goes to called Curiosity Camp.

[00:12:36] And so you go there and it's like camp in the middle of nowhere. I performed, it was kinda like a mini burning man for like 150 entrepreneurs, investors. AI nerds and a bunch of really smart people getting together just to have an UN-conference about what's coming in the world and, and, you know, new economic models and new technology models and these types of things.

[00:12:55] So I got to perform. And then after that, I tried the R for the first time in this tiny little tent. And I remember putting it on, it was like a giant brick putting on my head. It was the DK one, the Oculus, and this was in 2014. Put on these giant headphones. And I sat there and they turned it on. And I remember sitting there going, Oh, like having this gasp of, Oh my God, this is amazing.

[00:13:14] And I remember staring and I was looking at a concert, but it was so visceral that I felt like I was at the concert. The sound sounded right and, and I just sat there and I was like, Wow. And I remember somebody taking their hand and putting them on my shoulder, and I was on a swivel chair and they turned me around like this, and I realized that I could look everywhere. I was like, Oh my God. I could see the ceiling and the lights and the floor, and I just looked every. Then they hit a button and put me on stage, like I was up in the crowd. And then all, I was standing on stage next to Beck, looking at the artist, hearing it from my ears, looking up the crowd. And I thought, Oh my God.

[00:13:49] And as a DJ myself for 20 years, I had this kind of moment where I was like, Holy crap. They just put me on stage in a place where nobody in the world gets to stand. Think about that. You know, like only the artists and the band or the DJ and maybe his manager get to stand on stage. Nobody gets to see this . And by transporting me in vr, I was there and I was like, This is gonna change everything, everything.

[00:14:13] And that's, you know, right after that, we kinda lost the company, the, the DJ company. And I said, Well, let's just get into this now. And so in 2014 we started working in VR and we 3D printed our own cameras. We, we had 360 cameras built out of GoPros. We did everything. We did 360 videos. We did AR apps.

[00:14:30] We did projection sandbox where you, you had connects and you, if you dug the sand out, it actually projected different things like topography of the sand. Did a VR photo booth for Samsung, which is super cool. We use their camera and you could take a picture with you and your friends and would Photoshop you into space, so you jump outta the machine and you could look at yourself in space with your friends in vr.

[00:14:50] Casey Golden: That's great. So like as soon as you got like that one exposure hit, 

[00:14:54] it 

[00:14:55] Alan Smithson: that was it. That was.

[00:14:56] Casey Golden: we're going this way,

[00:14:57] Alan Smithson: Oh yeah. You know, I, I kind of had this thought that this is the future of human communication. This was like, okay, if I'm gonna communicate with somebody from long distance and we can stand there and like put these glasses on and be in the same room, this is gonna be the future of human communication.

[00:15:11] And that was my whole ethos. I've since expanded that because, you know, and even if you go on our website, metavrse.com, we say that the Metaverse engine is the future of human communication, collaboration, commerce, and culture, because if you kind of take all of those four, that's really where we are right now.

[00:15:29] The metaverse is impacting these things. So yes, we can communicate better, we can have a sense of presence, we can collaborate. You know, the, the new Bugatti was just designed in nine months rather than three years because they used VR to collaborate. You know BMW's been using VR to calibrate all the automotive companies are using it, not just to sell things, but to create.

[00:15:47] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, to build,

[00:15:48] to help them build faster. 

[00:15:49] Alan Smithson: so you know, collaboration is gonna be a big part. And then commerce, obviously 3D retail, duh. I mean, you know, Shopify's already showing in 96% improve, you know, uptick in conversion rates when using 3D on a site versus just 2D images and videos. So we're gonna go to 3D for sure.

[00:16:09] Everything in the world, every brand, every company in the world will need all of their products and assets. Converted to 3D into 3D worlds, and over the next, you know, by the end of the decade, let's say. And that's a challenge because, you know, how do you convert them? Do you take CAD models and change them into 3d?

[00:16:27] Do you take photographs and try to use photogrammetry? Do you use the scanners that are coming in the phones now? Do you use AI just using photographs to convert to 3d? So I think the biggest challenge over the next, you know, eight years or 10 years, end of the decade, This technology is showing massive upticks and, and conversion rates and all of the things from training to marketing to retail to e-com.

[00:16:48] All of these things are being impacted positively, really positively, but it's still hard to make them. It's still hard to create the 3D worlds, the 3D environments avatars, clothing for avatars, these types of things. And so I think we're only just scratching the surface of what's possible. But AI is going to fill in a lot of the blanks over the next decade 

[00:17:07] Casey Golden: That's great.

[00:17:08] Nexus of Three Technologies

[00:17:08] Alan Smithson: I recently wrote an article called The Metaverse is the nexus of these three technologies. And the article, it, it's kinda like you have to read halfway through the article before I talk about them, because you know what, A little leading thing there. But the idea is that you have three technologies in addition to the internet we have today.

[00:17:24] So the internet today, we have the ability to have video and audio and record and all these things that we're doing now, but then you wanna have depth, you wanna be able to walk around a virtual world. So it has 3D or XR vr, right? So you've that 3D component we call xr. Then you've got ai, which is gonna be, you know, natural language processing for maybe you wanna talk to a character, maybe you wanna get help in the store.

[00:17:44] You can have conversations. Then computer vision, maybe you wanna see a product and you're like, What does that look like in my house? I hit a button, it changes the camera. Now I can see that couch in my house because the camera itself is using computer vision to understand my living room. Actually, IKEA came up with this really cool thing.

[00:18:00] A quick video of your house and it blocks stuff out. Like it'll take your existing couch out and put the new one in for you. You're like, Whoa, this is crazy. So

[00:18:08] computer 

[00:18:08] Casey Golden: love AR for home goods, like for furniture. I mean,

[00:18:12] Alan Smithson: So you've got, you know, this 3D ar and then you've got ai, which, you know, kind of enables all that. And the new AI algorithms are allowing you to we have one called in World where you can talk to characters, and the other one that we're looking at right now is anything world.

[00:18:26] And the idea is that, Use a text description and it will build a 3D environment for, you can say, I, I need a room with four walls, five windows, a tree in the corner, and a couch over here, and it will build it for you. Now it's very low poly and it's, it's not, you know, it's not perfect, but it's, it's automatic.

[00:18:44] It's kinda like, you know, Have you seen Mid Journey and Dall-e yet

[00:18:47] Casey Golden: I love Mid Journey. I've been playing on there until like I ran out of 

[00:18:52] Alan Smithson: credits 

[00:18:52] Casey Golden: could play 

[00:18:54] Alan Smithson: I was like,

[00:18:55] What the amount of credits, Here's my credit,

[00:18:57] my 

[00:18:57] money, 

[00:18:58] Casey Golden: do it again. I was having so much fun with it. 

[00:19:01] and it. 

[00:19:02] Alan Smithson: and licensing. So like, why would I ever go to a stock photography site ever again? Because I say, Okay, I need, the other day I said I needed a metaverse, whatever. I typed in whatever I, you know, description. It gave me a couple. I was like, not happy. I did it again. I was like, Oh, that one's nice. I up resd it and now that's the image for my article.

[00:19:20] Casey Golden: Yeah,

[00:19:21] Ricardo Belmar: it's exactly what you wanted. 

[00:19:22] Casey Golden: I, actually think that it's brilliant that if I could just go ahead and create one. and then it would create like 500 versions.

[00:19:31] Alan Smithson: Oh, I'm sure that's coming. I,

[00:19:33] I'm sure. 

[00:19:33] Casey Golden: I'm just like, okay, I like this, but like, don't gimme one now I want like a set of four. Well, you know what, just gimme a set of 500.

[00:19:41] Alan Smithson: Yep. You know, this was a really good processing power at that point

[00:19:45] because these images, so you know, instead of four it can generate 400. It's, this is the thing with ai, if people don't understand, it's just raw processing power. That's why if we can tap into the phones around the world, You know, use some of this idle processing power, then you just have more power available to do it.

[00:20:01] Because right now it's kind of expensive, right? You, you put in a request through mid journey, it goes up to their cloud. Somebody's gotta pay for, you know, an actual computer to process that. Create these four or five or 400 images for incident em back. Anyway, the last technology that we didn't touch on, so xr, ai, and the last one's blockchain. know, how do you have a decentralized ownership of assets? How do you have a record of maybe, you know, maybe you just want something simple like a record of your employment or your record of the things you took for training. Cuz right now you go to university, you have a degree, right? That degree is held by, let's say, you know, let's just use Harvard, right?

[00:20:36] Harvard holds your degree. You now put on your, on your LinkedIn, Hey, I went to Harvard at, you know, there Now does, do employers go and verify that? Do they go to Harvard? Chances are, or they. a lot of times. So maybe having a, you know, verified way to not only take your degree, but all the courses that you took.

[00:20:53] Maybe you took a course on Udemy or Udacity or you, you did a side course. The side courses are really the skills that you're gonna need, because that's why people are taking, that's why people are learning on YouTube, because right now the world's moving faster than the universities, colleges, and high schools can keep up, and so the curriculums have to go through rigorous vett.

[00:21:13] By the time they go through that, it's maybe two, three years, the technology's already passed and like moved on. So we're kinda in this weird technology meets, you know, learning model. And actually I did a TED talk called the, the Marriage of Technology and Education and where I just said, Look, we should be using all these technologies that are, that we're inventing not only to train people on those technologies and how to use them, but use them for this, for for learning.

[00:21:39] So we should be using AI algorithm. To do this, and actually something I read yesterday, you know, the company Striver s Str r ivr, they do all the training in VR for Walmart. They've trained over a million people for Walmart. And one of the things they said in their early Stanford hit Human Interaction Lab, the, the early study they did was a teacher, very simple study.

[00:22:00] They had a teacher and two students, and they were all represented as avatars in VR. Now the teacher is looking at a student, right? So they have eye contact with the student. But imagine the avatar can look at both students equally. So even though the teacher may not be looking at either student, maybe looking down the middle, the avatar looks like it's looking right at you.

[00:22:19] And so you have this personal one-on-one connection, even though it's one to many. And so you imagine if a, a class of a hundred people, everybody feels like you're looking directly at them, and this is super powerful.

[00:22:31] Casey Golden: That's 

[00:22:31] interesting. Yeah, I think that, you education versus application. It's definitely behind. I don't feel like we're, we're really preparing kids for work or to understand what the career opportunities are because it's just so antiquated of yet you don't have to do that anymore. Like, these are all the new jobs in that space, under that topic that literally nobody's talking about.

[00:22:58] So I think it's very interest. I asked a, a nine year old before the pandemic, which I'm like, So what do you wanna do? Like when you grow up, right? The, the, the number one question. And she just like, shrugged and pushed back on the pool and like, went backwards. 11. She's like, It doesn't really matter.

[00:23:19] It's not like they'll ex, they won't exist anymore by the time I need it. 

[00:23:25] I just mind 

[00:23:27] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Wow.

[00:23:28] Yeah. 

[00:23:28] Alan Smithson: think that the key to this is asking a different question. The different question is, is this instead of what do you wanna do when you grow up? Or what job do you want to get? Because we don't know what the jobs are gonna be. We don't, we're inventing them as we go. And something like, I read a stat, something like 60% of jobs over the next decade won't exist,

[00:23:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that's right.

[00:23:46] Yeah. 

[00:23:46] Alan Smithson: So what are we training people

[00:23:47] for? 

[00:23:48] We don't 

[00:23:48] Ricardo Belmar: Right. We don't 

[00:23:48] Casey Golden: a nine year old to tell me that.

[00:23:50] Ricardo Belmar: we, We don't even know. That's why we need better tools, Right. To be able to do 

[00:23:53] What problem do you want to solve?

[00:23:53] Alan Smithson: so here's the better question to ask in my opinion, is what problem do you wanna solve in the

[00:23:58] world? 

[00:23:59] Ricardo Belmar: That's the 

[00:23:59] Alan Smithson: know, technology can be used. It doesn't matter if you have a problem you wanna solve, like climate change, I want to solve, I wanna stop sharks from being harvested for their fins. Okay? If you take that, that singular cue, you can use all sorts of technologies to disrupt supply chains to, you know sink ships. You could do everything in your power to people from fishing for sharks, cutting their fins off and throwing them back. I mean, imagine just one person had a singular vision on that and used every piece of technology to disrupt that industry. Of course, you do 

[00:24:32] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. It, it's like the, the number one thing, right, the technology brings is agility to do these things quickly. 

[00:24:37] Alan Smithson: we're not teaching people. that, one, they have all the technology at the fingertips as long as you have access to the internet and a phone or a computer. Two, you can make a big difference as an individual. And three, we're not teaching people to set goals and look at long term horizons. So when Julie and I got into Metaverse, this was actually not our long-term goal.

[00:24:59] Our long-term goal is to build a new education system using this technology. But we're in year seven of a 30 year plan. mean, literally, you know, we started in 2014, we're now in, you know, 2022 and we're going out to, you know, 20, I think it was 2048 or something, was our kind of goal. So imagine looking 20 years out as a student instead of saying, What do you want to, what kinda job do you wanna get?

[00:25:22] Well, I'll get a job and then six months later, my employer will lay me off and then I'll go through this thing. And once you get into the the rat race of having to pay rent, your opportunities to dream huge and solve world problems really diminishes. Because you just need to pay your bills. And I think this is one of the one of the things that we can do better as a society is, is give people a bit of a safety net so they can start to try to cha to take on big problems in the world.

[00:25:47] But you have to tell them what the problems are and what are some of the solution opportunities, and then say, here dedicate your life to one, solving this problem.

[00:25:55] Casey Golden: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that that's a much better way of looking at it. And I think it's just gonna be inevitable. Like I will never ask that question again after I got that answer because I too realize that like, it's a wrong question.

[00:26:09] Alan Smithson: You know, ask me, what are you gonna do when you grow up? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. I, I have been in my life, I, I graduated with a degree in molecular biology. I was a pharmaceutical rep. I owned a medical billing company. We owned a hostile, We we had a nutraceutical company.

[00:26:26] We had a DJ business. I was a DJ for 20 years. We had a technology company and now we own a game engine. So who knows where life will take you. But now we have a, a singular vision and, and mission to, to create a new education system for the world using the technologies that we're talking about today.

[00:26:41] And we, we actually settled on retail as a model to focus on that because all the technologies we need for retail at the highest levels. So, you know, we're building a virtual mall, which is insane, but we're building the world's largest virtual mall, and all the technologies in there are actually being built in mindfulness of what we're gonna need for education.

[00:27:02] So the hundredth floor of the mall, each floor of the mall is a million square feet, so it's a hundred floors tall. Each floor is a million square feet, so you have a hundred million square feet of virtual space to build retail. Experiences and entertainment and all these things. But the hundredth floor is actually owned by the Unlimited Awesome Academy, which is Julie and i's trust to build this new education platform.

[00:27:23] So the hundredth floor of the mall will benefit from the entire mall. The 20th floor of the mall is an education floor, so we have, you know, floor one to 20 is owned by the mall and leased to brands. So we've got like a luxury floor, automotive floor, consumer electronics, all these things. Floor 20 is actually reserved for education.

[00:27:39] So we're gonna put education systems in there and let them have the, the floor, There's no charge for that. So we really do have this kind of long term vision of how we can leverage the, the retail world for the technology. Cuz we're, we're working with our partners to build insane amounts of technology, like crazy stuff.

[00:27:56] We can, We built a technology recently called Infinite, l o d, or infinite level of detail that allows us to have an infinite virtual world. Meaning the mall's one building, when you leave the mall, it's vast. I mean, you could build anything you want in as far as you see. And it could be out in space like we designed it so that it doesn't, it, it loads on any phone fast and you can load and go anywhere in the world and walk around and it's just vast, right?

[00:28:22] So that technology, I think is gonna revolutionize how. Build these things, because now what it typically happens is you build a scene and the scene is a fixed map, like, you know, Decentraland, a fixed map, sandbox, it's a fixed map. And then what you do is as you walk around the map, it's kinda loading different parts of the map.

[00:28:40] Well, we don't have a fixed map. We have the fixed mall, but then the map is completely open to the world and what they wanna build. And so this is kind of our way of saying, okay, what does an open and unlimited metaverse look like? You know? And because that's really what people want. They want a persistent. Is never ending. It's kinda like Second Life, but you know, at a much, much larger scale available. And then Second, Life is still successful. They still have probably a million people a year on Second. Life doesn't work on mobile, Decent land, doesn't work on mobile Sandbox doesn't work on mobile. Roblox barely works on mobile.

[00:29:11] So you know, having the ability to onboard billions of mobile phones into the Metas is gonna be the key. And then of course, we'll move to glasses over the next decade as well. You're seeing Oculus moved over to Meta now. Meta is introducing a new a new headset. So we're gonna see vast improve improvements of this. And then I would, I'd venture to say Apple makes their entrance into this space probably in the next year, would be my guess. We've been waiting for years and there's been lots of rumors over the years. I remember somebody in 2014 saying, Apple's gonna come out with VR glasses this year.

[00:29:43] And I was like, I don't know about. Now, here we are, seven years 

[00:29:47] later. It's still 

[00:29:48] Why are brands coming to the mall?

[00:29:48] Ricardo Belmar: So, so Alan, let me ask you more about the mall. I'm curious, when you talk to retailers and brands about the floors in the mall that you've got set aside for them, what, what's, what's your pitch to them? What, what's the selling point for the retailers to, Is it, for example, because you'd run on mobile where so many of these other platforms either barely do or, or don't what, what's the big selling point for the retail on the brand to, to be in the.

[00:30:10] Alan Smithson: sure. I think it's, it's being part of something bigger. First of all, you know, you look. Brands are jumping into De Central and because it's, it's there and it works and it's bigger, right? It's a bigger community and there's gonna be more chance of eyeballs falling on. The problem is there's just not a lot of users there because the graphic fidelity is ma and there's a lot of barriers to entry.

[00:30:27] If you wanna buy something physical, you cannot, If you want to use your credit card to buy something digital, you cannot, You have to buy with Manna, which is their in world currency. So we took a lot of the ideas from what these other platforms were doing. We said, Okay, well, how. Specifically make that for retail.

[00:30:46] And really it was less about what we thought. And we've just had a lot of meetings with a lot of brands in the hundreds. And so when we, when we show them the mall, when we walk around, when we show them stores, when they say, Oh, well can it do this? Can it connect to our backend order management system?

[00:31:00] Yes, it can because we use JavaScript. Can it, can we connect our loyalty program? Yes, absolutely. We have a, a backend system. And so it's just a really, a combination of. Having this idea for 'em all because we were building virtual showrooms for all different brands, and they were saying, Oh, I want a video chat on this one.

[00:31:18] And this one would say, I want to dress the avatars and I, I want something over here. And so all these different disparate virtual showrooms that we're building, we built one for MasterCard, we built one for, for Samsung. We built all these things and they were asking for the same thing in different ways.

[00:31:30] So we said, What if we built in a persistent mall so that if,

[00:31:33] if we build a new piece of tech for one, one person, one brand, it now everybody in the mall. So you have the central part. Now brands can start driving people into their stores. So the mall.io/brand, it drops you right into the brand store. You can walk around, you get the full brand experience, but you can walk out the door as well. 

[00:31:52] So we've been meeting with, with hundreds of brands, and the brands that have interest in the mall, they want to get into the metaverse. And now here, here's the thing is it's a big cluster. You know, everybody's like, Oh, talking about the metaverse, the buzzword of the year. You know, do I make NFTs, do I not?

[00:32:06] NFTs are kind of got like a, you know, negative connotation now that they've lost half their value. So it. Do we build our own virtual store? Do we go into Decentraland? Do we build something over here? Do we go into Roblox? And you know, the question or the answer's probably you gotta try all of the things, right?

[00:32:23] And so you know, what we recommend is, look, take a budget, you know, whatever it is, 50 grand, a hundred grand, 200 grand, whatever your budget is, that's discretionary. You know, don't invest too much in this right now because nobody knows what's gonna work and whatnot. So we have like a 50 grand entrance package.

[00:32:37] You get lease, you get, you know, kind of all the things included. We build everything out for you.

[00:32:41] We have a full studio. And so the idea was how do we just get rid of all of the barriers to entry for a brand and then just get them into the mall. Because it's, it's all new for all of us, right? You know, people are saying, How are you gonna get any traffic in the mall?

[00:32:53] Well, you know, of course we're the mall. We have to get traffic in there. But we're coordinating that effort with the brands. With the brands that we're working with, because really we don't have the brand gravitas of a, you know, of a, of a large shoe company or a, a large electronics manufacturer. You guys have, they have hundreds of thousands or millions of consumers. 

[00:33:12] And we're working with a candy company. They're gonna put QR codes on the candy, so that's gonna drive people directly into their store in the mall. And, they have multiple stores in the mall, so it's. It's really intriguing how, we've kind of realized that the marketing and getting people into the mall is, is less our responsibility is more of the brands, but where our responsibility is to have the right brands there and encourage them to build cool stuff because it's really less about, you, know, a store and it's more about an experience. And so, you know, one thing that I think the mall replaces or, or at least adjuncts is that, or not replaces, but adjuncts is that Amazon and Mall Walmart are the two largest retail stores on earth digitally, right? amazon.com and walmart.com. But you wouldn't invite your friends to go shopping on amazon.com.

[00:33:58] You'd be like, Hey, we're gonna have a shopping date on, Go on Amazon. See what I'm ordering in my cart. It, it's taken the fun out shopping it, it's taken a front out. It's, it's just ruthless procurement of goods. Casey we'll go Amazon shopping

[00:34:12] Buying vs Shopping - it should be fun!

[00:34:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. It's buying versus shopping. 

[00:34:14] Alan Smithson: it is. Procurement of goods versus shopping and shopping should be fun.

[00:34:18] There is a reason why malls aim the cultural center of communities, and we wanna do the same thing. So our, our mall is multiplayer. You can invite your friends, you can go walk around. It's super fun actually. And we're putting little mini games in there. There's daily games that change every day so you can win prizes.

[00:34:34] Just super cool stuff. So. 

[00:34:35] Casey Golden: That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I think that big, that big benefit at the end of the day of participating. It may not necessarily be a conversion rate because that's not necessarily the goal Right. 

[00:34:48] now. What would you say is that roi? Because I don't feel that it's going to be money, like sales revenue, but I might be wrong.

[00:34:59] Like today, if somebody wanted to go and have their first Metaverse experience with you, what is that main transformation or moment that you expect that that brand is going to be mentioning in the meeting to a hundred thousand or 800,000 next season? There?

[00:35:19] Alan Smithson: I think you nailed it. Is, is really up to the brands to build some cool stuff and, and look, right now we made the mall look like, like a mall. It's got stores you can walk around. It doesn't need to look like a mall. It could be a, a field, it could be a space, it could be anything, right? So when you walk in your store, , Yes.

[00:35:34] It looks like a store from the outside. And then when you walk in through the barrier of the door, it changes and, loads a new project. And the new project is like, Oh, now I'm in a, you know, basketball court, or now I'm like sitting court side watching you know, Nicks and nets, right? So it's one of those things that right now there's a term called skew amorphism, meaning we kind of tend to take what is already existing and build things like that.

[00:35:56] So we. A mall. Looks like a mall. We put it into digital format so it feels and looks like a mall. Like you're walking around. You don't, it just feels right. It just looks like a mall or, Okay, great. I get it. I understand it this, really understand it. But that doesn't mean we can't push the absolute limits on the other end.

[00:36:09] But what we need to do, and we need to do this for everybody, is make people feel comfortable in these virtual spaces and, and skew amorphism or, or bringing kind of the traditional world into the virtual world for now seems to. The right path. We've done some crazy, crazy stuff on the, on the, you know, way out there, NFT galleries and stuff. 

[00:36:30] And it doesn't really resonate with people. They don't know how to navigate it. They, they don't understand it. They're, there's a bit of a mix mix mash, so I think it's really gonna be up to the brands to build cool experiences that engage with their customers that. Really drive brand awareness. You look at Samsung's 8 37 store in New York. I think it's a prime example. And even Nike Store in New York City, I mean, yes, they sell shoes, but it's really about the experience of experiencing the brand. You go into Nike store and the whole first floor is the history of Nike. You can look at the old shoes, like it's just really, really cool. Yes, you can buy some shoes on, you know, one of the other floors, but it's not about that. It's about the experience of, oh my God, I was in New York and I went to this crazy store. And it, it, made me realize how how much research has gone into the Nike shoes and then like, you can really build these experiences and Samsung 8 3 7 in New York as well.

[00:37:16] You go in there, you can't buy anything. You can literally just, you can look at the fridges, you can look at the kitchens, you can look at the, the mobile phones. You can, there's all these really cool experiences. There's lots of places to take selfies, which is fun. And you, you know, people's new selfie flex is gonna be, Hey, I gonna dress up my avatar.

[00:37:33] And dripping in Gucci and and take a picture. But I think people's online personas are going to start being more important than their in-person personas. We're already seeing that. I mean, like, you know, people in virtual worlds are spending billion, billions on skins. 

[00:37:49] Ricardo Belmar: Oh yeah. Oh 

[00:37:51] Alan Smithson: You know, night skins.

[00:37:53] I mean, I think Fortnite did something like $9 billion last year, Something 

[00:37:57] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. 

[00:37:57] It's crazy. Yeah. So, Alan, let me ask you this. What, what would be your top advice right now for, for, let's say for this over this next year for retailers, DTC brands, I mean even retail tech businesses who are all looking at the metaverse and kind of thinking, Okay, how do I get in? What, what, what are my first steps?

[00:38:17] What do I do to get started?

[00:38:19] Alan Smithson: Sure. Find a, a decent partner who understands retail, who's done with this. There's, you know There's a company called Max, a Maxent. They do a great work on kind of, you know, for furniture companies, a bunch of retailers. 

[00:38:30]

[00:38:30] Alan Smithson: Marxent 

[00:38:31]

[00:38:31] Yeah, they, they do a great job. Converting things to 3d, you're gonna have to have teams that understand 3d.

[00:38:36] And 3D is not easy. It's not as easy as creating a JPEG or a video. It's quite complicated. There's. You have a 3D model, then you've got layers and layers of of images that go on top of that to make it look realistic. You've got a bumpy one that makes it look bumpy. You've got texture files, all these things.

[00:38:51] It's not, it's not really that easy a technology. Now, it's getting easier and we're getting there, but I think by starting now and starting small, taking a, you know, let's say 50,000 to a $500,000 budget, building something and then starting to have your teams internally. Understand how the sausage is made. How do we go from an idea or a concept or some photographs of a store to a fully, 3D environment with avatars, with products in there and everything, and, click to buy everything.

[00:39:19] And so one of the reasons we did the mall is because we've done this a bunch of times for individual clients and it, it ended up becoming kind of rinse and repeat, right? We're like, Okay, well this, this client wants, and now we can build a virtual showroom in. Oh man, the last one we built, we took three days and it was beautiful. Just because we're getting really good at that. So I think the first thing is understand, learn a bit. So there's lots and lots of . I don't know how many guides to the metaverse there are, but there's probably at least a hundred that I know of. So go read some of those. You know, have somebody in your team dedicate somebody in your team to be the head of Metaverse, you know, and it's not just about, you know, 3D and that sort of thing, but you have to understand the crypto world as well.

[00:39:58] People are gonna start buying in cryptocurrencies. What does that mean for you? How. How do you get paid in cryptocurrency and convert that to fiat because brands don't have accounting systems that that can take into account crypto. Right. So we have a, a partner named BitPay. So anybody can pay in any crypto they want using 95 different wallets.

[00:40:16] It automatically takes their money, converts to U s D on at the end of the day and then settles with the brand at the end of the day. So you, the brands get settled in USD. . And, and the client doesn't know any, any difference in between and it's actually cheaper. So a stripe is like 3% for, you know, paying with credit cards or whatever.

[00:40:34] With fiat and BitPay is only 1% because, and there's no chargebacks. Cuz once a crypto payment's paid, it's, there's, you can't reverse it. So I think there's gonna be a, a combination of. Onboarding customers or guests, we call them guests in the mall. Onboarding guests into, the crypto world slowly, but allowing them to pay in anything they want.

[00:40:52] You pay credit card, PayPal, Amazon Pay, you know, it doesn't matter. We will, we will take any form of payment for physical and or digital goods in fiat and or cryptocurrency. And so from a brand standpoint, something like the mall kind of gives you. A boost because you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[00:41:10] If you're going into Decentraland again, there's a platform already there, there's people there. Roblox is great if, let's say, for example, you're a brand and your, your target customer is 25 to 30, well, your next target customer is, you know, 15 to 25. Right? Like that block. So if they're playing Roblox, and then I think something like 62% of Roblox players are under the age of 16. So if that's your next target demographic, like Gucci wants to be in the next, you know, they wanna be generationally relevant. 

[00:41:39] So if you're a brand that wants to be generationally relevant and be put in front of millions of people, go Roblox, you know that, that's a great starting point there. But it's, it's hard to get people's attention in there too. You've got, something like 10 million games on Roblox or something, or 4 million games on Roblox. So and then with the mall, it is a dedicated retail experience. You know, people are going there for that. They know what they're getting, and there's, there's gonna be a lot of, malls, digital malls, metaverse malls and these sorts of things.

[00:42:06] But I don't think a lot of the startups that get into this realize the true depth of what's required. I mean, we spent seven years building a game engine for Enterprise. So when a, when a client says, What are your security protocols? We, we have a SOC two compliance and SOC two is not an easy thing to do.

[00:42:23] It's, you know, it's eight months of, they basically take everybody on your team rip apart of their computers and you know, digitally 

[00:42:31] inside, make sure you don't have anything hidden. You gotta go through all these security protocols. So now that when we go to our clients, we say we are of SOC two, we also have Kronos compliance.

[00:42:40] So Kronos is a 3D standard so that if you have a 3D model that you use on walmart.com, you can just pick it up and drop it into the mall and it will look the. This is important. Your product is not gonna look real in Roblox. It's gonna look like it's made out of Lego. You go, same thing with Sandbox, same with the Decentraland.

[00:42:58] And they use a technology called voxels. So it's, very gamey looking like, like it's made out 

[00:43:02] Ricardo Belmar: Very 

[00:43:03] blocky. It's very 

[00:43:04] Casey Golden: of a standard of visual aesthetic that a lot, the higher end the brand, the less familiar that feels. And it's, but it's being adopted and it's, You don't have to be photorealistic all the time, 

[00:43:21] Alan Smithson: Yeah. You can have fun with it. And that's what I tell brands. Look,

[00:43:24] You can use Unreal Engine for your commercials, your, your Hollywood movies. You know, they, they high, super high end. Maybe you want to build a film, a car, you know, driving through things. You can use the Unreal Engine for that. Then you can take the same asset. Down res it put it into Metaverse Engine. And now you can use it on the web, on, on the mall, right? You can use that same thing now it's interactive. You can drive it, you can, you know, on a mobile phone. Then you can take that same thing, pixelize it, and throw it into, into Decentraland or sandbox or, or Roblox or Minecraft.

[00:43:51] And the idea is that you're using one asset to create several experiences and brands are gonna start doing this. I mean, it's just very few brands are doing it. 

[00:44:00] But I predict that you're not gonna be in one metaverse. You're gonna be in a bunch of different things, try different things, and some will be successful, Some won't.

[00:44:06] Try things on your own website as well. I mean, our system. When you b build a store in the mall, you can actually build a hit, copy, paste, make a separate one and put it on your website as well. Now it'll link over to the mall, but it can reside on your know your brand.com website. We, we've taken out as many barriers to entry for brands as possible from, from our standpoint. 

[00:44:26] Casey Golden: Yeah. 

[00:44:27] Alan Smithson: We just, we've done so many meetings and it's been, I mean, our FAQ page is 50 questions long now for the mall 

[00:44:33] Casey Golden: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard enough to wrap your brain around it. At least once you make the decision. Let me take you right to it. 

[00:44:44] Alan Smithson: Let's just get it done, shall we? 

[00:44:46] And shouldn't be like one year thing. Oh my God, we're gonna build this thing in a year. Like what? No, man. If you can't build it in a, you know, eight weeks. 

[00:44:53] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. you'll be too late. 

[00:44:55] Alan Smithson: Yeah. maybe. Maybe. 

[00:44:58] Ricardo Belmar: You might be too late. 

[00:44:59] Alan Smithson: It's a crazy world we live in. It's moving so fast. That's why, one of our benefits of the engine is that it's low code.

[00:45:04] We can build these things in in hours, you know like building the whole thing from scratch takes three days. You imagine how long that used to take? Six months ago, that took three weeks.

[00:45:14] Ricardo Belmar: There's definitely a magic to to low code for sure, to really speed things up.

[00:45:18] Alan Smithson: Yep. 

[00:45:19] How to reach Alan?

[00:45:19] Casey Golden: what's the best way for someone to get in touch with you and follow the journey? 

[00:45:23] Alan Smithson: Sure. I, I, there's a couple ways. Metaverse Engine, which is, you know, the creation platform that is powering the, the mall. You can go to metaverse.com, m a t a v r s e.com. The mall is simply the mall.io. You can go sign up there, and if you sign up now for the mall, whether you're a brand or a guest, or an investor it'll ask you, you know, a dropdown for that.

[00:45:43] You'll get put into a, an email funnel. So you'll have, if you sign up now, you'll have all early access to everything. So, for example, we're launching a new website for the mall, And that new website is fully built as a 3D world. So you scroll down the mall and you actually walk in and you end up inside of 3D website walking around.

[00:46:00] It's not the mall, it's the website for the mall. we used our engine to build a revolutionary new website. So go to mall.io, the mall.io. And then you can just add me on LinkedIn. I can't add anybody from that, but you can follow me on LinkedIn. Cause I hit the limit of LinkedIn. Just use this my name alan Smithson. And you'll see fireworks above my head. I, I took a picture at the Formula one and that's my profile pick now 

[00:46:22] Casey Golden: Oh, 

[00:46:22] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, nice. 

[00:46:23] Alan Smithson: was like, this 

[00:46:24] Ricardo Belmar: cool 

[00:46:24] Alan Smithson: awesome. 

[00:46:25] Ricardo Belmar: Very cool . 

[00:46:26] Alan Smithson: Yep. 

[00:46:27] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I, I, I know I have really learned a lot today, Alan. Thank, thank you for that. I'm sure all of our listeners and, and viewers did too. Casey cause, you're already a, a Metaverse and, and web three advocate, so I'm sure a lot of this was old news for you after your debut event. Right. 

[00:46:40] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, we just had our second successful brand activation with Lux Lock on the 12th for New York Fashion Week. So with five brands everyone is enjoying. The experiences and looking forward to the future of commerce, like the brands are excited, the con consumers are excited. Making these early experiences is just critical into understanding like what these channels could potentially mean to your company.

[00:47:06] Just do something And see what happens. 

[00:47:11] Alan Smithson: Yep. No, it's absolutely true. And look, one other thing that I, I didn't really mention is set some KPIs. What, what is it you want to get out of it? Because a lot of times, you know, for the last five years or six years, we've been building all sorts of marketing things, and they never really set KPIs.

[00:47:25] They're just like, Hey, let's do this cool thing over there. And you're like, Yeah, I'll take your money and we'll do it. No, there's no measurement of success. So then you don't get a subsequent budget. And, and marketing teams are, they, they sometimes do this a lot, you know, they'll, they'll do things without measuring it, and that's fine.

[00:47:41] Then maybe they want the media hits or whatever it is. But you have to have some metrics of success. Is it conversions? Is it time spent on platform? Is it, is it the number of visitors? What I, is the metric that you're measuring for success?

[00:47:52] Because then, you can measure that. We can make changes. You can change completely everything or just some things, and you can get to the successful metrics. If you're not measuring it there's no point. So that's why actually one of the things in our mall is, complete analytics dashboard with, with everything from time spent on how much time somebody spent on a product. I mean, looking at it did they invite a friend? Did they convert from there? You know, these things are all really important.

[00:48:15] And so we built, built this cool dashboard so that you can kinda look at your store and, and see a heat map of where people walked. Cause if somebody walks in your store and they all go right, and you want them to go left, well you can put a little display. 

[00:48:27] Casey Golden: they always, always go right. 

[00:48:29] Alan Smithson: Do they

[00:48:29] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. 

[00:48:33] Casey Golden: apartment? Buildings. We'll go right

[00:48:38] Alan Smithson: love it? Well, you know what? The heat map data will tell us where people go. 

[00:48:42] We'll find it. Yeah. Once we have this segregated data in the mall, we'll be able to tell, you know, okay. 57% of people went that way. 37 went that way. 

[00:48:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And then you can keep adjusting, right? I mean, that's kinda the whole point is you want to keep adjusting and adapting to what, What's gonna work? 

[00:48:55] Alan Smithson: Yeah, you could put a plant there to make them sure. They go around it the other way. You just literally, and this is the other thing, you can re-merchandise your store for every day if you wanted to, you could be like, Hey, today we're gonna do, you know I don't know. It's October, so we're gonna do a Halloween theme, and for the month of October, it's Halloween theme.

[00:49:10] And then, you know, as soon as November one hits, you just hit published to the next one, and now you're a Christmas. Right. So rebranding doesn't take, Okay, we gotta build a store, then we gotta ship out all the pieces to all the stores around the world, and then you gotta remerchandise it and then we gotta take photos to make sure that you did it right.

[00:49:25] No, it's like one small team can remerchandise a store for potentially billions of people. 

[00:49:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's, that's incredible. That's an amazing approach. Love it. Well, Alan, thank you so much for, for joining us today. You're, you're truly, I think transforming retail and coding meta versus is more than meets the eye in doing so. And I'm sure we are gonna be asking you to come back on to give us an update on how the all is going in the

[00:49:49] Alan Smithson: We'd guys. Honored. 

[00:49:50] Casey Golden: Always an absolute pleasure to to listen to you and to chat with you. I just love to hear how your world is progressing. 

[00:49:58] I'm still so web two

[00:50:00] Alan Smithson: We're we're ? That's a, Yeah, we're on the two five spectrum 

[00:50:05] Casey Golden: Yeah. 

[00:50:06] Alan Smithson: Awesome. Well, 

[00:50:07] Casey Golden: But thanks again a I hope to have you back soon 

[00:50:11] Alan Smithson: awesome guys. a great one. 

[00:50:13] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks.

[00:50:14] Show Closing

[00:50:14] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden. 

[00:50:44] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:51:01] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:51:02] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter until next time, this is the retail razor show. 

Hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden explore the diverse applications and benefits of RFID technology in the retail landscape, unlocking the potential for innovation from supply chain to in-store operations. Special guest John Pierre Kamel, managing director of RFID Sherpas, demonstrates how RFID excels in offering inventory visibility and accuracy to drive significant performance increases in retail business operations and sales.

We also bring you the latest episode in our "Blade to Greatness" mini-series. In this segment, we invite a retail industry leader to offer one skill or trait that all retail executives need to become great leaders. Whether in stores or at corporate, we'll uncover valuable tips and advice that you can apply to your own retail career path. April Sabral, founder of retailu.ca, an online leadership development portal for field leaders and the author of two books, The Positive Effect, and her latest, Incurable Positivity, joins us to share her insights on an incredibly important topic that every retail leader needs to master: how to cultivate a positive culture for your retail employees!

NEWS! We are pleased to announce that the Retail Razor Show is a Vendors In Partnership Awards nominee for The Retail Voice Award at the upcoming NRF Big Show 2024! We're asking all our listeners and YouTube viewers to help us win by showing your love for our show in the voting polls:

Here's how you can help by voting:

1. Visit https://bit.ly/3QlKr4X

2. Register to vote.

3. Vote for The Retail Razor Show in The Retail Voice Award category.

WOW! As we zoom past our 2-year anniversary on the show, we’re honored and humbled to have hit the top of the charts on the Goodpods podcast platform!

We can’t thank our Goodpods listeners enough! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

About our Guest:

With over two decades of experience, JP Kamel is a seasoned retail technology veteran, with a keen focus on RFID, Mobility and Omni solutions. As the Managing Director of RFID Sherpas since 2010, JP has been a driving force behind transformative change for global retailers, branded suppliers, and technology companies implementing RFID. He specializes in helping to effect transformational change for his clients by harnessing the power of data, inventory accuracy & visibility, process re-engineering, and Artificial Intelligence. JP is a regular contributor to leading retail publications on the value of Inventory Accuracy and Visibility and has been a guest speaker and keynote at multiple conferences around the world.  

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag, And Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Our latest recording, live and in-person, raw and uncut, from Groceryshop 2023 shines a light on one of the top trends from the show – Retail Media Networks! Part of our special cross-over event with guest host, Jeff Roster, host of This Week in Innovation podcast, Jeff and regular host Ricardo Belmar invited leading retail media analyst, Andrew Lipsman, principal analyst for retail & e-commerce at Insider Intelligence, to the mic. Together they analyze everything from Instacart’s IPO, which landed on Day 1 of Groceryshop, to defining what it takes to create a successful retail media network, to identifying how RMNs will expand beyond search, and beyond in-store media. Hint – start thinking about connected TV and streaming TV! What will the future hold for retail media? Our trio spells it out in about 30 minutes!

We also bring you the latest episode in our "Retail Razor Data Blades" mini-series, where we discuss real-world numbers and consumer insights based on research at the point of sale with the help of Georgina Nelson, CEO of TruRating. In this episode, Georgina continues our exploration of self-checkout to help retailers understand why the perception of choice is essential during the checkout experience for consumers!

NEWS! We are pleased to announce that the Retail Razor Show is a Vendors In Partnership Awards nominee for The Retail Voice Award at the upcoming NRF Big Show 2024! We're asking all our listeners and YouTube viewers to help us win by showing your love for our show in the voting polls:

Here's how you can help by voting:

1. Visit https://bit.ly/3QlKr4X

2. Register to vote.

3. Vote for The Retail Razor Show in The Retail Voice Award category.

WOW! As we reach our 2-year anniversary with the show, we’re honored and humbled to hit the top of the charts on the Goodpods podcast platform!

No. 1 in the Top 100 Indie Management Podcasts of the week chart

No. 2 in the Top 100 Indie Management Podcasts of the month chart

No. 5 in the Top 100 Indie Marketing Podcasts of the week chart

We can’t thank our Goodpods listeners enough! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star ratings and send us your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Tech Lore from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Goodpods: https://bit.ly/TRRSgoodpods

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Follow us on Threads: https://bit.ly/TRRSthreads

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

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Did you miss #NRF2023 in January this year? No worries, we’ve got you covered this episode with our special NRF Recap! It’s all part of our special podcast cross-over series, #NRFLive, with the This Week In Innovation podcast. In Part 5, the final episode in the series, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Jeff Roster speak with the North America Lead for Retail & Consumer Goods at Avanade, Greg Jones. Join Greg, Jeff & Ricardo as they discuss the biggest trends and themes they saw at the show, from exhibitors, to startups, to what retailers told them were their main takeaways from the show. Regular cohost Casey Golden also joins Ricardo for a quick introduction and recap!

You’ll also find out why this episode was not recorded live and in-person at #NRF2023 in the fabulous Avanade lounge. Instead it was recorded post-NRF – and yes, there is a story behind that! As a bonus, you can watch the video of the entire conversation on our YouTube channel. A big thank you to Avanade for sponsoring this series and making the recordings possible!

News alert! We’ve moved up to #18 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list - please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts! With your help, we’ll move our way up the Top 20! Leave us a review & be mentioned in future episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your regular hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S2E10e Avanade - Greg Jones

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:00] Show Intro 

[00:00:00] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to a special season two episode 10 part five of the Retail Razor Show. This is the fifth and final episode in our multi-part series recorded live and in person at the N R F 2023 Show in January. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:36] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome to the Retail Razor Show, retail's favorite podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike. And welcome N R F fans to our hottake, hashtag N R F Live the mini-series.

[00:00:56] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey, we are at the last episode in our crossover [00:01:00] event with Jeff Roster and his This Week in Innovation podcast, and this is a, a special final episode to close out the series. Thanks to our sponsor, Avanade that graciously allowed us to record the whole series in their, in their fabulous lounge space overlooking the main expo floor.

[00:01:15] For this final episode, Jeff and I were fortunate enough to sit down with Avanade's Greg Jones, their North America lead for Retail and Consumer Goods, and, and also a friend of ours, to recap what we saw at N R F, talk about the state of startups in retail which AAuD actually hosted three startup showcases during NRF with Microsoft for Startups team and our fellow Retail Avenger, Shish Shridhar.

[00:01:36] And two of our podcast guests came from those showcases, the 1 M robotics and Z blocks. They're both part of that program. And of course I know it's always near and dear to your heart anytime we talk about retail startups.

[00:01:47] Casey Golden: It is so a big shout out to Avanade for supporting and sponsoring this crossover and just, wow. I mean, this whole series has been a celebration of [00:02:00] retail and just showing us what N R F was all about this year.

[00:02:04] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. And you know, this discussion with Greg really highlights what I think so many in the media have been missing about the retail industry. That is really a more positive outlook about what's to come in 2023. You know, we hear about all the, the negative things that get reported, but that wasn't really the mood.

[00:02:22] At this N R F and, and we talk about that in this in this episode, you know, positive in the sense that even with all of those headwinds that are out there and global problems and everything, retail still finds a way to innovate and finds a way to deliver great customer and employee experiences.

[00:02:35] Casey Golden: Yes, and, and the customer experiences always begin with the employee experience, and often that starts with what software they're using or lack thereof. So really enjoy this highlight.

[00:02:50] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's dive right in and listen to our conversation with Greg Jones from Avanade

[00:03:01] Greg Jones Interview

[00:03:01] Ricardo Belmar: Hello everybody. We are back to wrap up our N R F Live series that Jeff roster and I have been fortunate enough to speak to a number of fascinating folks during N R F Week and graciously as Avanade has sponsored us and gave us the space and facility to record. We're coming back after the show now with Greg Jones from Avanade to kind of talk through what stood out to us, what were some of the highlights of the show, and you know, see what where we think things are gonna go next. So, without any further delay, Jeff, what do you say? We just dive in.

[00:03:36] Jeff Roster: Absolutely. Let's get, let's get it going.

[00:03:38] Ricardo Belmar: All right. So please to welcome Greg Jones from Avanade. Greg, why don't you introduce yourself, kick us off and tell us a little bit about your background and what you're doing at Avanade.

[00:03:47] Greg Jones: Yeah, absolutely. Ricardo. And, and look, thank, thank you both. Yeah, Ricardo and, and Jeff for the time and the opportunity. I think we're, we're. Yeah, really excited collectively on the, on nrf. You know, it was obviously great to be back in, back in person and, and [00:04:00] yeah, great to be able to have this conversation as well.

[00:04:01] Cause there's a, a lot, a lot that got learnt and a lot that kind of excited the industry as well. So a bit of background. So Greg Jones run the, and look after the North America practice here at Avanade for retail and consumer goods. Avanade, you know, for, for those who don't know was a, a joint founded organization back in 2000 between Accenture and Microsoft.

[00:04:20] We're a global system integrator, you know, over 60,000 people globally, but very focused around industry as a whole. And, and retail is one of the priority industries that we have. And that's what we definitely brought together as part of Avanade as and NRF was the opportunity to be able to showcase some of the capabilities that Avanade is delivering. 

[00:04:38] So bringing all of our expertise together. So I've been with Avanade for two years. Prior to that I was with Microsoft as part of the global retail team looking after everything from partner ecosystem and business strategy for quite a number of years. And again, pleased to be able to be here with yourself and, and Jeff.

[00:04:54] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thanks very much for, for joining us, Greg. What, why don't you give us your sense of, [00:05:00] you know, obviously Avanade, you guys had a, a number of really great activities during N R F. You had the the breakfast session at the beginning of the week. You had some startup showcases happening with Microsoft for startups.

[00:05:11] Why don't you, you know, give us what you think are some of the highlights from the various activities, and then maybe we can talk a little bit about what, things stood out to all of us from the overall, from N R F?

[00:05:20] Greg Jones: Yeah, no, absolutely. I was gonna say, yeah, we, we did a, a lot to be able to, to really bring you know, the, the view of retail in the current climate as well. So we needed to make sure that, you know, we were coming to the event with capabilities. And some of the, the demos that we had that were very focused around helping organizations you know, get the value out of what they've got now as well.

[00:05:40] And, and I would say that, you know, retailers as a whole yeah, I've never faced such a, a volume of, of, or a variety of challenges as well that that's facing them at the moment. And it's also facing and, and making some tough decisions. And that was part of the conversations that happened throughout NRF is that people are there.

[00:05:55] To look at where they need to be able to pivot and how to be able to pivot their organizations, you know, during [00:06:00] the, the current climate at the moment as well. And I would say, yeah, through the discussions, there were two primary challenges that were, were being discussed, which is the, the need to control costs.

[00:06:09] And also to, yeah, protect margins and there need to be a responsible retailer as, as well and around, you know, doing what matters in the current climate, being able to still ensure that delight experience for the customers. But there's also an element of the employee experience that really came through as part of the discussions that we had.

[00:06:27] In particular a breakfast panel. That we did during nrf, where we had, you know, the Chief HR officer from Northern Tools and Equipment, very much talking about the importance of the employees and how through enabling those employees can continue that delight experience and, and be that, you know, continuation of that brand engagement with customers as well.

[00:06:46] So, It was actually really interesting on, on some of the elements that that came together. The way that we really came, you know, to N R F was to be able to look at what we're calling yeah, we call it reignite Physical Retail, which is really bringing that [00:07:00] physical retail and, you know, obviously the online worlds together.

[00:07:03] And how to be able to, you know, look at all aspects of that, that journey or, you know, what we're calling the, the customers. The only channel is how to be able to engage with that customer through all aspects of the channel of engagement, how we can help retailers and being able to do that. Yeah, it was great to be able to see the, the messaging landed very well with the, the client conversations.

[00:07:20] You know, the discussions that we had with, uh, with customers was very on point in regards to, you know, the, the challenges that they're facing and how we can definitely help , but there are also some surprises out there as well that we could talk about a little bit later as well.

[00:07:33] Ricardo Belmar: I'm, I'm curious in, in some of your client conversations, so some of the things I heard fairly consistently, and you, and you mentioned it at the beginning too, is this idea of you're trying to find and identify the things I need to do as a retailer to make my operations more efficient, to kind of lower that cost basis while still.

[00:07:50] Doing it in a way that's not gonna impact my overall customer experience, particularly in store now, that I think we can all agree that we can put to bed all, all those worries about stores going away, that hadn't been [00:08:00] real narrative for so long that you know, we can now all safely point to and say, yeah, that's not happening.

[00:08:04] Stores, stores are here to stay. But we're any, you know, was that a consistent theme that you heard as well?

[00:08:09] Greg Jones: Yeah, it was, I mean, you know, obviously the, the stores aren't going away. At all. You know, we've all heard that the business models of stores have to change. You know, and that's, that's no secret. You know, you're looking at new store designs that are, are coming out across the globe of, of how to be able to provide more of a curated experience.

[00:08:24] You know, and that, that in itself, I think is just part of the new business model that, you know, retailers are having to be able to make sure that the, the stores are, you know, the showroom. It's that way to be able to bridge , their online channels with the physical channels. And that pivot, I think definitely has been occurring more so post pandemic as well.

[00:08:42] And I think that's where, where people are now starting to see we need best, best of both worlds. You know, we're seeing Nike as an example, that are, are very much looking at redefining their, their store environments you know, through that whole direct to consumer engagement and, and element that they're, they're driving for as well, which I think is, is super, super cool in regards to [00:09:00] what they're doing.

[00:09:00] And. It almost like if I look at, you know, the Nike store in New York, it's a, it's a destination. You walk past there and people are there to do experience that, that whole engagement point. But I think it also came back to some of the, the fundamentals as well where retailers are, are sitting there going, we've invested in, in a lot of technology over the course of the last three years.

[00:09:19] Are we getting the most out of that as well? And that's, again, that was a pivot of the discussion on kind of doing more with less or doing more with the investments that they've already made and, and looking at ways to be able to really squeeze the most out of those investments. Is there opportunities to be able to consolidate?

[00:09:35] Absolutely. But it's also a way to be able to look at maximizing the investments that they've already put into place. So I'd be def definitely curious, like, you know, Jeff and, and Ricardo. I mean, you know, from discussions that you had with, with customers, did you look at that or hear in regards to getting more outta the investments that people have made to be able to, to reach the, the goals their wanting to achieve.

[00:09:53] Jeff Roster: You wanna go first, Ricardo, or you want.

[00:09:56] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, sure. I mean, from, from my perspective, I, I, I definitely heard [00:10:00] quite a bit of that, of, you know, what do I need to do to extract that benefit, right? From everything I've already invested in. I, I kind of, I tended to hear that coupled with, you know, this recognition that I, my goal isn't to cut a cost, right?

[00:10:14] My goal was to gain efficiency. You know, strengthen some aspect of an operation that perhaps when we first created this new capability, the goal at the time was to just get that capability out there with, with not too much regard for how expensive was it gonna be to deliver it. And now was the time to figure out, well, now that I've delivered it and we have this cap, this customer facing capability, how can we do it in a more efficient way?

[00:10:37] And if that means I have to invest in, in another, you know, supplemental capability on top of that to help facilitate the overall reduction of the operational cost long term, then that's okay. There was some recognition that that might be necessary, but I think I, I saw as a trend that You know, if there are a lot of really interesting new technologies out there, they were being viewed with the lens of how does that [00:11:00] make me more efficient?

[00:11:01] Or how does that make my operation better? Versus where, you know, the last N R F I remember the, the, the thought would've been, wow, that's really neat. How, how, how well received is that gonna be? If my customer sees that, then therefore I need to have it,

[00:11:13] Greg Jones: Yeah.

[00:11:14] Ricardo Belmar: which is a very different lens.

[00:11:15] Greg Jones: Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, one of the, as I said, you know, one of the surprises that, that I saw and certainly heard across, you know, the entire show, show floor was, you know, Leading into N R F. There was certainly, you know, there was you know, amplification, there was obviously the buzz that was happening about the metaverse.

[00:11:32] How is that being applied? You know, retailers that are looking at that, brands that are, are definitely jumping in and, and, and exploring and engaging with the, the metaverse for their, for their particular brand. But I was actually quite surprised that, you know, I didn't see walking into, you know, walking into the Javits Center,

[00:11:48] yeah, I remember the days where, you know, AI was the, the big topic and you'd have banners all over the place in regards to ai, this and, you know, AI empowered retail and you know, what AI can do for you and your customer experiences [00:12:00] or the, the wonderful world of big data. You know, it was kind of all over the, the place walking to the Javits Center didn't see anything in regards to metaverse.

[00:12:09] Now and visually, just in regards to, it wasn't necessarily there as a, you know, welcome to, or the, you know, the metaverse is changing the world and enabling, and I think part of that is, is the fact of people are still on, not on the edge, but they're still looking at how that can be applied and what that is going to do for their engagement, but also from an operational standpoint, given the current climate as well, is around do we look at supply chain visibility in inventory, our employees, how do we gain control of our, our entire data estate? Do we do that or we do metaverse? It's kind of the, there's a, there's an interesting kind of like, almost like a, a, an internal debate that people like it's, it's there, understand it, it's kind of, there's a new way to engage, but there's other things that we need to be focusing on as well.

[00:12:56] Jeff Roster: Yeah, that's such an interesting point. Is, in the first three quarters of my [00:13:00] career I was about adoption. You know, my Gartner in i h l days where, where are we in adoption. And it's interesting kind of even talking about the M word metaverse. You know, a lot of analysts that I'm friends with are going back and forth and are saying, well, I didn't see any Metaverse stuff there.

[00:13:15] Well you should have went up to the innovation lab because there was plenty of that there. But it, but the thing was, and I agree with you a hundred percent, Greg, there was, I, I don't think I saw the word metaverse once, but there was all the components of it, which is why I'm really such a big fan. And I got this first from Microsoft, the term immersive commerce, because it's not right now, it's, I don't think anybody's looking to buy a metaverse solution, but boy, you sure can find some very interesting stuff around holograms.

[00:13:41] You can definitely find a lot around 3D objects. You can definitely find some stuff around around augmented reality. Not so much on the, on the, on the, on the goggles yet. I, I kind of get that. I mean, you know, I, I don't know know they see that, but boy, When you start thinking about what Ulta's doing with Roblox, what [00:14:00] home, what see not Home Depot Walmart is doing with Roblox, you are in, you're really seeing that immersive commerce.

[00:14:06] Pieces begin to pick up and it's almost like there's a maturation in how we message the, how the vendor community messages this stuff. And it really, I, I didn't see, I, it just felt like a very mature approach to, to the show. Just. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Like screamy there's a great example.

[00:14:24] I'll use, it's one of your competitors. Like, I, I'll, I'll be nice and not use it, but there was one a few years ago, there was like a, a, a certain signage that was everywhere and it was like, you know, it. I don't know. It seemed kind of silly, so I thi I just felt like it was a really, really mature way of going about the business of not just adopt, you know, technology adoption, but also also the, the, the push towards innovation.

[00:14:49] Definitely on the you know, in the, in the innovation lab and definitely it. You know, in the Microsoft for startup stuff, I mean, there was some crazy interesting technology. So I, I love that balance. You [00:15:00] know, I just, I, I'm not sure, I'm not sure my, my fellow analysts though, picked up on that, that nuance cuz they're not chasing innovation.

[00:15:05] They shouldn't be, they should be worried about where, what, you know, where, where we are in adoption. And boy that's that's gonna be a fun thing for us, some of us to chase, I think in the next, next 18 months.

[00:15:15] Ricardo Belmar: Well, and, and you know, there, there's some things I saw too, so, I mean, I agree too. Greg said that, you know, that you didn't see Metaverse being flashed around everywhere. Like, like we had, you know, in places last year. And, and I agree with what you said, Jeff, that there are a lot of components about it spread out and, and lots of different places because, and I kind of perceive it that, as, you know, some of these components have useful things you can do with them today. Whereas I think everyone is still kind of figuring out what's my truly useful revenue generating thing that I can do that's customer facing in the metaverse that I, I know is gonna work with the customers I have? Or what, what can I do that's gonna attract new customers for me?

[00:15:52] And I think everyone's still kind of figuring that part out. But there's some things, you know, I, I, I saw people thinking and talking about digital twins, which I view [00:16:00] that as a metaverse use case.

[00:16:01] Greg Jones: Yep.

[00:16:02] Jeff Roster: I want to, you know, I want a digital twin. I want, I want me, so I can go in and have two or three people going around the show. That's what I

[00:16:09] Ricardo Belmar: your own digital twin go and 

[00:16:10] Jeff Roster: I need my 

[00:16:11] Ricardo Belmar: right? and go go talk to some 

[00:16:12] Jeff Roster: still, I

[00:16:13] Greg Jones: I was gonna say, I think we had a startup about that as 

[00:16:16] Jeff Roster: there you go. There you go. And I'm, I still haven't only covered about 15 or 20% of the show.

[00:16:20] I mean, I, it was unbelievable how complex that show was to cover. I mean, it was

[00:16:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:16:26] Jeff Roster: I, it just, so there was so much stuff and then we haven't even talked about, you know, the stuff that was happening offsite. Really, really that show is just absolutely maturing and, and exploding.

[00:16:36] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Well, well let's, let's kind of drill into this theme a little bit on what some of those new things were that it may not have been metaverse, but, you know, I, I, for example, I mean, I still saw some things around web three that I think were pretty interesting, particularly connecting with loyalty programs.

[00:16:51] Which I see as a trending, trending thing. And then also saw some things around micro fulfillment that I think continues to be, maybe isn't a, a new topic to [00:17:00] talk about, but still I, I would consider it new in terms of adoption. To your point, Jeff, you know, where are things in adoption and ways to apply it.

[00:17:07] So I think a lot of interesting things in, in pockets and areas, and particularly with what different startups were showing.

[00:17:12] Greg Jones: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'll, I'll jump onto the, the startup side. So a as, as you both know, you know, throughout the course of nrf, every day we, we, , in partnership with Microsoft brought together a number of, of, you know, very interesting and unique startups to be able to, it was more of an opportunity to be able to just share, share what are some of the things and, and organizations that are out there, the problems that they're trying to solve.

[00:17:33] and the way that we broke it up was, again, very intentional. So the first day that we had we focused around what we were calling the intelligent store. So really looking at the, you know, kind of what is happening around that physical store element. Yeah. And there was some interesting, interesting startups with a likes of Shopic, right?

[00:17:48] So Shopic, you know, it was a more of a smart cart frictionless shopping approach where, you know, it's a. Yeah, it's a self, it's a unit that then mounts onto a shopping cart. You can then pick the product off to the shelf, put that into your basket, [00:18:00] transact on the, at the cart itself, bag your product go and put it into the car.

[00:18:04] And then you just put the, you know, put the, yeah, the, the rack back onto the, the charging station. Again, a, a cost effective way to be able to provide that frictionless shopping experience. And then you had others with you know, if I look at the, likes of Pathr AI. Which is, you know, really starting to look at, not just around measuring traffic, but it's also looking at the analytics of that physical world.

[00:18:26] Understanding the shopper behavior within the retail stores, but it's leveraging the infrastructure that's already in place as well. So being, again, cost conscious, but being able to drive and, and, and pull value out of what's in the, the store that was, there were, that was a couple that we had on, on day one.

[00:18:40] Day two, again, we pivoted around what was happening in the, the current days. So it was around looking at unified commerce and supply chain. So, you know, we had, you know, organizations like Next Billion ai. Again, looking at, you know, scale and managing the mapping ecosystem as well, and, and, you know, tackling , complex location based problems and [00:19:00] how to be able to use AI as a means to be able to bring, you know, geography and scale together to be able to look what was happening.

[00:19:06] You then start to, to look at the likes of, you know, pocket. You know, and Pocket themselves is, is really a sort of a, a checkout platform that helps businesses access and retain that, the digital native shoppers globally. And it's, it's really, it was quite interesting on the way that they were looking at merchant partners looking at shelf analytics and, and you know, being able to bridge the yeah, bridge that online and, and in-store experience. 

[00:19:30] But the Day three was the one that kind of, I think, blew people's minds a little bit. And yeah, Jeff it comes back onto what we were all saying about, about Metaverse. We did have a session on Metaverse, but it was to be able to bring different elements.

[00:19:42] You know, you start to look at this, you know, this commerce approach, you start to look at how, how different types of capabilities are, are being enabled. And one of, one of the startups that we had there was, was phenomenal. I mean, it it, you could have had an an hour just with this particular startup called Deep Brain ai.

[00:19:58] And they're, they're all about, you know, [00:20:00] conversational artificial intelligence. And they were talking about stories of, you know, in the Asia region where, there is a mainstream news program that instead of having a, a, a. and, you know, a physical host hosting the, the TV program. It's a conversational AI and a, it's an AI driven you know, en engagement that happens.

[00:20:21] And then radio stations that are you know, we're on a podcast. But, you know, it was kind of scary when it's starting to talk about, you know, again, this, conversational, , AI and how that could become the voice of radio moving forward. And that was one where, . It was good to have it sort of on the last day because I think people were just like, oh, you know, last day we're sitting down.

[00:20:39] That's all good. And then there was all of a sudden this, well, hang on a minute. What, what, what are you talking about? And it was actually, it was kind of, it, it created a lot of, lot of great follow on discussions as well. But it was kind of, again, it was an opportunity to be able to bring something new to, you know, customers and, and anybody that was able to, to come past our showcase.

[00:20:58] Jeff Roster: Yeah, that was the one with the [00:21:00] the Howie Mandel avatar, correct.

[00:21:02] Greg Jones: Yeah, that's correct. Yep. Jeff.

[00:21:04] Jeff Roster: So they were up in the they were up in the innovation zone. That's actually real. I mean, Howie is sending his, I don't know, what do you call it? His AI out and you can license that and for a, a, a cheaper rate than having Howie come out personally, I, I, I, I was shocked by that.

[00:21:20] I mean, not shocked. That's probably too strong. But you know, again, that innovation versus adoption. Wow. You, you can, you now can you can. Pounds, dollars Euro rupi and say, there, there is money being generated. And obviously it's just, I mean, that's such a crazy scenario. How that's gonna play itself out feels really super metaverse to me.

[00:21:41] So.

[00:21:42] Greg Jones: Yeah,

[00:21:43] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:21:43] Jeff Roster: It's just, I, I just, 

[00:21:45] Greg Jones: just,

[00:21:45] just say

[00:21:46] Jeff Roster: adoption. The

[00:21:47] Ricardo Belmar: Just saying.

[00:21:48] Jeff Roster: The the, the, not the, not just the innovation, but the adoption. When you can start going in stuff that we really, I don't think that was even around what, three years ago or at least before Covid, and now you, you can say, [00:22:00] wow, there's money being generated here.

[00:22:01] That is

[00:22:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:03] Jeff Roster: adoption. That rapid innovation followed by, I think, pretty significant adoption coming forward. So a lot of stuff happening there.

[00:22:11] Greg Jones: And I think to be honest, Jeff, that that in itself is, is part of the challenge for the industry, right? So as you said, yeah, three years ago, you would, I don't think we would, any of us would've been having a conversation about, you know, you know, Howie, Howie out there with his, you know, with his ai and that is, and you can, you know, you can purchase that, get him out there speaking and, and create this kind of character.

[00:22:33] you've also then sort of blend that within the, the conversations that really bubbled up on the last day of NRF around chat G p T, right? You and, and you start to look at, okay, as a retailer, how do we, how do we, what do we do with this? How do we consume it? How does it get applied? And I think collectively, if I look at, you know you know, the, the three of us, I think there's a, an element of how can we help retailers? Really start to look at how it could be applied in that, in that [00:23:00]conversation of like responsible retailing, I think there's an element of, of, of a good conversation to have around that as well.

[00:23:05] Jeff Roster: Yeah, that, that one's not going away because every analyst I've talked to is, is both intrigued and sweating bolts about that. Um, since I'm on, I'm on the other side of my career, I'm like, yeah, this sounds great. You know, let me just, let me just have this, absorb all this in unbelievable amount of information and then and, you know, spit out some content and let me edit it.

[00:23:27] And then, just you know, roster's, opinion edited, or, you know, created by chat G P T and, and edited by me. And it seems fine to me. As long as somebody's sort of validating that Basically. Basically it's just ghost writing. So what does that, what does that mean for retail? I mean, how.

[00:23:41] How are they gonna process that? How are they gonna absorb that man? We're, we're, we're, we're really out on the edge when we're, we're talking about that. And just imagine if by next year where we've really now spent six months, eight months, nine months, really beginning to live with this and seeing and seen podcast.

[00:23:59] I mean, [00:24:00] there's a podcast where it's already interviewed the ai I mean, you know, it's, and did live. I mean, it was crazy. And that's, we're only on the, the earliest edge. So, So when I look at that, when I look at what teams are gonna need to do what, uh, what retailers are gonna need to do, we've always been screaming about, you know, air of intentional innovation is upon us.

[00:24:16] Boy oh boy, that's on, that's on steroids now. You, you live streaming. What are you gonna do with live streaming? Are you gonna be comfortable having your store associates out there presenting your brand out in all kinds of environments? Are we gonna over-engineer that live streaming like we probably would've done 10 years ago?

[00:24:31] Hopefully not. You know, 

[00:24:32] Ricardo Belmar: now you'll also have the option that maybe if, for your best store associates that do that, right, you could have their digital avatar do to live streaming for them while they're still helping a customer in the store.

[00:24:40] Jeff Roster: I mean that that

[00:24:41] Ricardo Belmar: Think about it that

[00:24:42] Jeff Roster: that's just a g. Yeah, that's 

[00:24:43] Greg Jones: now you've just taken it next level.

[00:24:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. , I mean, just, just thinking out on some of the, I, you know, there, everyone likes to talk about the customer service use cases, right?

[00:24:51] Where today it might be, you know, the what, what every consumer probably learns to hate the chatbot on ev on every retailer's site that tries to solve their support [00:25:00] questions when they come in, ask. But now, when you have something like a chat g p t trying to solve those, you might actually get meaningful responses. And the consumer won't even realize that they're talking to an ai, if you don't tell 'em they're, they're gonna get the answers they want and move on. , you know, you can think of it in, in like, call center applications. I can think of. You know, I, I think to me those demos that we saw from like the deep brain ai, there, there's gotta be an example there of, whether it's Howie or some other celebrity type, you know, pseudo endorsement, right?

[00:25:25] Standing at the, in a store window, kind of waving to the people coming by offering to tell 'em about what great new thing is inside the store, ? And to get people inside when it's just, it's not really them, it's their digital avatar.

[00:25:34] Greg Jones: Yeah, it's, it's, gonna, it's, it's gonna be really, it's, it's exciting. I think it is exciting in regards to how it gonna be applied. I mean, I, you know, talking to my, my 17 year old son about Chat GPT and he was just like, yeah. It's like, I've known about this for months. I'm like, okay, good.

[00:25:47] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:25:48] Greg Jones: you might, you might wanna, you might have wanted to share that with me before I step foot at nrf, but that's, that's a different, different 

[00:25:53] Jeff Roster: the second question is how much of your homework has, has that done for you?

[00:25:57] Ricardo Belmar: has it done for you.

[00:25:59] Greg Jones: Yes, [00:26:00] there is, is that subliminal sort of. Okay, let me, let me, let me re-look at your grades and see if there was a spike in improvement. Now I know. Now I know why, but now he's, he's a.

[00:26:10] Ricardo Belmar: So, so Greg, let me ask you this to kind of last thing here, to close this out with all these things we just talked about of, based on, on what we saw at N R F. You know, what, what's your take on where retailers go next this year coming out of n r f. 

[00:26:22] Greg Jones: Yeah, look, I think it's sort of coming, coming out on the, on the back of nrf. You know, I would say that, there's the consistent excitement that is still there in regards to, you know, the market opportunity. You know? Yes. P their discretionary spend is starting to, to definitely slow down and we, we see that in all the reports and, yeah.

[00:26:39] Discussions that we're having with our customers. I think, yeah, really for, for me, it's, it's, kind of the, the challenge and the opportunity is really just that bridge, you know, how to be able to bridge that physical and digital world together. You know, really unleash that, that customer experience.

[00:26:52] And the other part of it is, is really around the data estate. You know, the, the one thing, and certainly one of the, the key themes that came up [00:27:00] and, and through the discussions that we had is what to do with this vast amount of data that has, yeah, I would say significantly grown over the last three years, just given the, the new.

[00:27:09] New market opportunities, new direction that retailers have had to go. And there's a, there's a need and a, and a desire to, to look at, you know, how do we try and get control of of what we have as part of the data estate? Is there the opportunity about to monetize that as well? So if I really look at sort of the, the three th three themes, you know, data, data monetization, how to be able to, to do that, enable and sort of that bridge that physical and digital worlds and, and drive the most out of the investments that that organizations have had.

[00:27:35] But being, keeping that in a responsible way. And, and I think, you know, the employees you know, We're having a lot of discussions with with retailers in regards to their employee enablement and how to be able to do that you know, in a responsible way as well. We need, we want to make sure that, you know, the associates are being given access to the right information to make them more informed and to be able to deliver a better customer experience.

[00:27:57] But we also wanna make sure that it doesn't open. You know, [00:28:00] kind of the other counter worms in regards to, you know, on the clock and off the clock and hourly employee discussions. And I know that, Microsoft, you know, is very focused on around that, on, you know, the, the whole enablement and controlling access.

[00:28:12] You know, it's, I I would say it's still, it's, it's an exci, it's still an exciting time and, and you know, I just know that we're, we're all in this together to be able to help retailers through, you know, through where we are and how to be able to get on the, the other side as well. I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to NRF 2024.

[00:28:29] I think it's gonna be exciting but it's gonna be, it's gonna be a journey over the, the course of the next few months just on how, how people are pivoting over the, the course of the, of the economy as well.

[00:28:38] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I think that makes a, a lot of sense and I, I'm gonna delve a little bit on one of the points you made that we didn't talk as much about earlier, but that I caught it in some key moments around the show may not necessarily always a, a big focus, but certainly lots of people talking about is, you know, what kinds of things can be done that focus on, supporting those store associates and, and [00:29:00] frontline workers in, in the store, you know, what's the technology doing to serve them? It, it's not a discussion I believe, anymore about a technology that's replacing people. It's what's the technology that's helping the people that are there? Partly knowing that, , in most cases, re retailers aren't expecting to hire more people.

[00:29:16] In the stores, there's still an issue of, of, you know, where do I find enough labor to run the store? And so you, , there's that element of needing the technology, but I think there's, there's now a renewed I'll say, I don't know if I should say new or renewed, but there's an interest for sure now in leveraging the technology to make that store environment a better work environment overall. For the team that's there and you know, doing it in a way that causes people to want to do that job. I, I think that's a key differentiator from what I've seen in past years.

[00:29:44] Jeff Roster: Yeah, I'd agree with that. Almost the point where it was noticeable I thought. Uh, where, I don't, I'm trying to think back over the years was the discussion around the employee as, as predominant and I, I just don't think it was, and I just wonder if that maybe is a kind of [00:30:00] a, a fallout from, from Covid where we really saw how, how critical our supply chains are.

[00:30:05] We saw how important people in those supply chains are, how important it's to have, you know, a working store, physical store in our neighborhoods. When it came time to get, know, milk or eggs or whatever. I don't know. It just felt, it just felt like a really interesting, it just felt like a better show.

[00:30:21] It just felt like a better experience. It just felt like everyone

[00:30:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:30:25] Jeff Roster: I don't know. And if, if that, if we got that out of that mess, we've all been through the last three years, uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it was worth it, but, but at least it's something positive that came out of all that, all that train wreck

[00:30:34] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:36] Greg Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I look at NRF as being, you know, it's, it's the big show. Absolutely. But this year was the big reunion, you know, it was really that opportunity for people to be able to get back together in person, catch up, Have a laugh, you know, get and, and just reconnect. And I think it was, it was absolutely, it was, you know, it was energizing to be able to be in that environment.

[00:30:56] But as I said, I think it was very much the, the big, big industry [00:31:00] reunion is really what N R F was about this year.

[00:31:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:31:02] Jeff Roster: a good phrase.

[00:31:03] Ricardo Belmar: I, I, I even kind of think of it almost like a big reset moment in that, you know, everybody had been in sort of a mode the last few years because of Covid, and this was almost felt like finally it was the, the one industry moment that let everybody get past that mood and to move to now we're ready to move on to what we're gonna do to make this industry better.

[00:31:22] And I, I, I might, I would probably sum it up as much more of a collaborative note. from an industry point of view on how we're gonna do this than in past years, even pre covid, where, , it wasn't about What am I gonna do? This was more about what are we going to do? 

[00:31:37] Greg Jones: Yeah.

[00:31:38] very much so. That's

[00:31:39] a good. 

[00:31:40] Jeff Roster: that.

[00:31:40] Ricardo Belmar: All right, Jeff, any, any last, , thoughts?

[00:31:43] Jeff Roster: Oh man. It just, it's so exciting. All that. You know, I, I was one of the 6,000 that was there last year, and it was just, it just broke my heart. , and I just thought, my gosh, are we watching the, the end of retail? You know? And of course, remember that was all the talk about, you know, [00:32:00] buy online, pick up the store.

[00:32:01] Awesome, awesome thing. But then, you know, do we are, do we even need this? And all the last mile stuff? And I'm like, no, no, we're, we're people, we're humans. We, we want to, we want to gather. And when I walked in, well, starting with v i p awards on Friday night, and then all the way through, , getting on the plane Wednesday afternoon or yeah, Wednesday afternoon, it just was all about re you know, re-engagement, you know, return.

[00:32:23] You know, the celebration of the human experience, which I think retail probably more so than any industry, really captures that. And I just, I haven't felt as good coming out of a, a trade show, probably, probably ever actually. I just, yeah, I'm, uh, it's, it, it's an exciting time ahead. There's tons of stuff for, for us analysts to talk about.

[00:32:41] There's a bunch of stuff for us focusing on innovation to talk about, and then there's just this tremendous celebration of, of what we can do as a society and as a, as a group and an industry. I, I'm, I'm really, really excited about the, about 2023.

[00:32:54] Greg Jones: Yeah,

[00:32:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. Greg, any final thoughts?

[00:32:57] Greg Jones: I was gonna say sim, similar to Jeff, like excited about [00:33:00] 2023. You know, the. NR NRF is, it's really kind of the, it's the Super bowl of, of the, the industry and it brings everybody together and there's the, you know, the excitement around it. What I am definitely, you know, looking forward to is again, just the continuation of the conversations.

[00:33:14] And, you know, it's, The industry is small. We know it's a very small world. You know, and keen to be able to, learn as we're all going through this through this year, just in regards to where we need to be able to pivot and, and how we need to be able to partner. And, you know, really looking forward to, you know, looking forward to a successful 2023 together and and celebrating great successes in 2024 at nrf as well.

[00:33:34] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, I agree with that. Fantastic. Well, Greg, thank you so much for, for joining us for this N R F recap. I know we, we, we all attempted to do this live and while we were still in person during the show and had, let's say, a few technical glitches that maybe prevented us from successfully completing

[00:33:52] Jeff Roster: One slight one.

[00:33:54] Ricardo Belmar: Just, just one slight 

[00:33:55] Jeff Roster: have an 

[00:33:56] Ricardo Belmar: uncooperative microphone that, that prevented us from capturing all that [00:34:00] gold commentary that we knew we were gonna get. But , but 

[00:34:03] Greg Jones: app, Apparently Apparently there's some technology that can help with that.

[00:34:06] That's 

[00:34:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Yeah. We'll, we'll, Jeff, we have to look into that for sure.

[00:34:10] Jeff Roster: Oh man.

[00:34:11] Ricardo Belmar: the next time.

[00:34:12] Greg Jones: That all, all good!

[00:34:14] Ricardo Belmar: All good. All good. Well, well, thanks again, Greg for joining us and thanks to Avanade for having sponsored us and giving us the ability to, to. Take on this series during n r f by letting us use your, your space which was such a, a, a fabulous, fabulous spot for us to, to capture some, some golden moments w with a number of really interesting people, and that will everybody's been able to enjoy in this series.

[00:34:35] Greg Jones: I was gonna say, you're, you're always welcome.

[00:34:36] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks very much. All right, Jeff, I think that is a wrap for 

[00:34:39] Jeff Roster: this

[00:34:39] Well, and thank you Ricardo, for letting me shadow you throughout this whole crazy week. I mean, you know, we've talked about doing this sort of a thing for a while and man, what a, what a crazy deal. What an awesome, crazy, fun way to cover N R F 2023. I think we captured some good memories and, and I cannot wait for what [00:35:00] you and I have planned for going forward.

[00:35:02] Ricardo Belmar: Absolutely, absolutely. Quick little hint your dropping there for you dropping for, for what's yet to come.

[00:35:09] Jeff Roster: that's a, that the term is

[00:35:10] Ricardo Belmar: listeners and viewers anxiously awaiting.

[00:35:12] Jeff Roster: The term is foreshadowing

[00:35:14] Ricardo Belmar: foreshadowing. There you go. There you go. All right, and with that we will sign off. Thanks everyone for joining us.

[00:35:20] Jeff Roster: See ya.

[00:35:20] Greg Jones: Thanks.

[00:35:21] Show Recap

[00:35:21] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone. So Ricardo, you have to give us some more details. What happened to the original recording of this conversation? I, I, I understand there's a story.

[00:35:37] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, there, there is. And as much as I'd like to find someone else to blame , I can honestly say I have no idea what happened. So, you know, Jeff and I set up all the mics all our equipment, just like we always did in the Avanade lounge for each of these sessions. But somehow despite, you know, all the, all the sound checks we did when we start before we hit that record button, When I went back to listen to that [00:36:00] recording that, that I got on my Zoom Podtrak recorder, it turned out that Greg's mic was somehow just not functioning at all, and we only had his voice spill over onto the other two mics, so he sounded totally faint and distant.

[00:36:12] It just was not a useful recording at all. So Jeff and I had to go back to Greg after we all got back from N R F and we set up a remote recording session to wrap up the series. So of course that meant technically we didn't record this last one in the crossover series, live and in person at N R F, like the others in the series.

[00:36:29] But in exchange, you know, we get to show off more video podcasts this season with this one.

[00:36:33] Casey Golden: Yeah, and hopefully some of our listeners became viewers on YouTube for this one. I also really love how you guys wrapped it up by talking about the energy and emotion that everyone brought with them at N R F this year. I was there. I felt it, and I don't think I've ever seen that much at nrf. Have you?

[00:36:55] Ricardo Belmar: No, no. I mean, that's a hundred percent of That's so true. This was a really unique N [00:37:00] R f I have to give a special shout out to Jeff Roster too for, for joining me on this little onsite recording adventure. We honestly didn't know if we'd be able to pull this off. For both of us it was our first true, legitimate attempt at some live onsite, in-person recording at an event like this.

[00:37:17] I gotta say, we've all been so used to doing this remotely in, in our podcasts. and looking at each other like we are right now and a little square on our screens. It was just so amazing to have the chance to do this in person. It really brings a whole new feel to the podcast.

[00:37:29] Casey Golden: Absolutely. I know. I really enjoyed listening and watching these. I hope our show listeners and viewers did too, and I just, I adore what Greg mentioned Avanade is doing with those startup showcases. It's just, I feel it's really important at nrf, so now I have to ask. , were you and Jeff hinting at the end there?

[00:37:52] Are we able to say something here about what's to come?

[00:37:56] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I think we're gonna have to keep listeners in suspense on [00:38:00] this one for a little bit longer, but let's just say this won't be the last time you see our two podcasts team up. In fact, we may be doing something even bigger next time, so just stay tuned, keep listening to the show you know, keep listening to our show.

[00:38:11] Keep listening to Jeff's This Week in Innovation so you don't miss out.

[00:38:14] Casey Golden: Fine. Keep everyone in suspense. I know it's worth it. And I'm going to give one last shout out to Avanade. We can't say enough about how grateful we are for you providing a space for you and Jeff and sponsoring this series for us. Thank you Avanade. And I do also wanna thank Jeff again. He's just absolutely awesome to work with.

[00:38:40] And at this, I wish I could have joined you guys for those recordings. But as you know, N r F and Startup Life. Uh, soon we gotta divide and conquer

[00:38:52] And one final thank you to Shish for helping us connect with 1MRobotics and Z [00:39:00]Blocks. They're doing incredible things.

[00:39:02] Ricardo Belmar: I totally agree. And with that, Casey, this crossover event is a wrap.

[00:39:07] Show Close 

[00:39:07] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed our show, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Wanna know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes and handy links for more deets.

[00:39:31] I'm your co-host Casey Golden.

[00:39:34] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to connect with us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c Golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on Twitter, at Retail Razor, on LinkedIn, and on our YouTube channel for the latest updates and content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:39:50] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:39:52] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail if you [00:40:00] cut through the clutter. Until next time. This is the Retail Razor Show.

[00:40:03]

In this episode we answer an incredibly important question in retail – what is the future of local delivery services? Delivery has become a core convenience service for most consumers in recent years. How will retailers continue to offer these services in a cost-effective manner for both them and their customers? The market for these 3^rd party providers has also changed. Can business models adapt or will we continue to see consolidation and market exits from providers such as quick commerce delivery services? We’ve invited Raj Kapoor, COO of Shipt to help us answer these questions, and more, about the future of delivery!

Plus, we introduce a new leadership segment on the show – ‘Blade to Greatness’! In this segment, we invite a retail industry leader to offer one skill or trait that all retail executives need to become great leaders. Whether in stores or at corporate, we'll uncover valuable tips and advice that you can apply to your own retail career path. Jeffrey McNulty, Founder and CEO of New Retail Ethos Consultancy, author of The Ultimate Retail Manual, and creator of The Ultimate Retail Course: Become a Retail RockStar returns to the show for this powerful new segment!

Jeffrey is offering a special discount on his retail course for Retail Razor Show listeners with discount code RETAILROCKSTAR100OFF at this website: http://www.theultimateretailcourse.com/

We’ve moved up to No. 17 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list – if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts and help us continue our climb up the Top 20! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Wow! Join us in celebrating our top of the charts achievements on the Goodpods podcast player!

#1 in the Top Indie Management Podcasts chart

#2 in the Top Management Podcasts chart

#4 in the Top Marketing Podcasts charts

Thank you Goodpods listeners! We love your support! Please continue giving us those 5-star rating and provide your comments!

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023, 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock, and RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2023. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!

Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring Overclocked, E-Motive, and Swag, Tag & Brag from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno. 

The Retail Razor Show

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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Co-host → Casey Golden,

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S1E10 – The Retail Avengers & Building a Culture of Innovation

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 10 of The Retail Razor Show!

In this episode, we turn the dial up to eleven on our ongoing innovation discussion! We previously focused on digital transformation & innovation both from a “what” and “who” perspective, but how do you create an environment and culture that fosters innovation without breaking the business?

To answer that, we bring you a special guest, Andrew Laudato, Chief Operating Officer of The Vitamin Shoppe, fellow Advisory Council member of George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, fellow RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer, and author of the new book, Fostering Innovation – How to Build an Amazing IT Team. Andy joins our Retail Avengers team to share his winning framework for building a strong foundation for innovation in IT teams, including his tried and tested approach to hiring, budgeting, and project management for innovation, plus more!

Have you heard! Our podcast is staying strong on the Feedspot Top 60 Retail podcasts list! We’re currently at #22, so please give us a 5-star review in Apple Podcasts if you like the show! With your help, we’ll be on our way to a Top 20 spot! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts:

I’m Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay franken-stacks!

Together, we’re your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, we’ll help you cut through the clutter!

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Join our club on Clubhouse: http://bit.ly/RRazorClub

Listen to us on Callin: https://bit.ly/RRCallin

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

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Host → Ricardo Belmar,

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TRANSCRIPT

S1E10 Building a Culture of Innovation

[00:00:20] Intro

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening, whatever time of day you're listening. Welcome to the retail razor show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar a RETHINK Retail, top retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:33] Casey Golden: I'm your cohost Casey Golden CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the relationship between a brand and consumer, the experiences, everything. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I'm slaying Franken stacks to power the future of commerce.

[00:00:48] Ricardo Belmar: So Casey, this episode is a real treat for listeners keeping with our recent themes on innovation and leadership. Our retail Avengers crew on clubhouse brought in none other than Andy Lodato currently the chief operating officer at The Vitamin Shoppe, a CNBC technology executive council member, a fellow advisory council member at George Mason University's Center for Retail Transformation, also a fellow RETHINK Retail top retail influencer, and most recently author of the book Fostering Innovation, How to Build an Amazing IT Team. Andy joined us for a deep dive on building the right environment for innovation.

[00:01:24] Casey Golden: It's a great clubhouse discussion. Andy brings a fresh perspective and has valuable experiences to share about creating that ideal environment to foster innovation.

[00:01:34] After our two part series on digital transformation and innovation, this one really dials it up. With best practices from a real world retail expert, making changes.

[00:01:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Andy has lived through a lot when it comes to innovation, he's got so many examples and he's, he's worked hard to figure out what the right way is to create that ideal environment for innovation. And he shares with us what worked and what didn't throughout the discussion.

[00:02:00] Casey Golden: Spoiler alert. You'd be surprised how concrete is a retail requirement. Stick around for his stories.

[00:02:07] Ricardo Belmar: It's definitely one of Andy's best stories that he shares in this session. But let's not give away all the best parts, Casey.

[00:02:13] Casey Golden: All right. All right. I'll let the dialogue unfold.

[00:02:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yes. Quite clever. Nice and smoothly done. I bet you've been waiting to say that haven't you.

[00:02:20] Casey Golden: I can neither confirm nor deny that. Totally never got to use that phrase before. I'm digging these one liners.

[00:02:32] Ricardo Belmar: you're getting a lot of those in.

[00:02:33] Casey Golden: So let's cut through the clutter and get to the clubhouse session. The retail avengers build a culture of innovation with special guest Andy Laudato. He'll be with us when we come back to ask him even more questions, so stick around!.

[00:02:47] Clubhouse Session

[00:02:47] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome everybody to the retail razor room. We've got a special treat this week. We're going to be talking about building a culture of innovation. We have a special guest that we'll introduce in just a moment, but in case anybody in our audience here is not one of our regular visitors.

[00:03:07] We'll do some quick introductions of the Retail Avengers team that's always here in the room. Casey, why don't you kick us off?

[00:03:14] Casey Golden: Hi, I'm Casey golden. I'm the founder of Luxlock retail tech platform. Focusing on customer experience. Been on the industry side of the fashion and enterprise tech. So kind of moved myself into the convergence of both.

[00:03:28] Ricardo Belmar: All right, great. And Trevor,

[00:03:30] Trevor Sumner: My name is Trevor Sumner. I'm the CEO at perch. We do interactive retail displays that use computer vision to detect which products people touch. So they wake up and immediately tell you about the right product at the right time. And so a exciting frontier of computer vision, IOT, and interactive retail display.

[00:03:48] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks Trevor, Jeff.

[00:03:49] Jeff Roster: Hi, Jeff Roster, a former Gartner

[00:03:51] and IHL retail sector analysts. Now co-host of this week in innovation and on a couple of advisory boards

[00:03:57] Ricardo Belmar: Great. Thank you. And Shish.

[00:03:59] Shish Shridhar: Good afternoon, I'm Shish and the global lead for retail, with Microsoft. I've been in retail for about 20 years focused on AI and currently from an innovation perspective, driving co innovation with startups, for retailers looking forward to the conversation with Andy today.

[00:04:16] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks Shish. And I'm Ricardo Belmar for those that don't know me, I'm the lead partner marketing advisor at Microsoft, and I've also been in the retail tech side of the industry for the last two decades trying to help retailers really get the best value from technology investments and super excited to have with us, our special guest today, Andy Laudato COO at The Vitamin Shoppe. And Andy, I'm gonna let you kick off about yourself and how you got to where you are today and what led you to write your book that was just published, Fostering I nnovation which is the topic of our room today.

[00:04:48] Andy Laudato: Great. Well, thank you, Ricardo. And hello everybody. Great to be here. I've been a longtime listener and a contributor to the retail avengers. I am the chief operating officer at the vitamin shop. The vitamin shop is a, just over a billion dollar health and wellness retailer. We're mostly in the U S we have over 700 stores in the us.

[00:05:06] And then of course we sell on vitamin shop.com. So in my role, as COO, I oversee the P and L for our e-commerce. I run the supply chain, technology, what we call enterprise portfolio management, which is something I think we'll hopefully talk more about today. As well as the quality and commercialization of our private brand or another way to describe it as I do everything at the vitamin shop that the CEO does not want to do.

[00:05:27] Ricardo Belmar: love that description,

[00:05:30] Andy Laudato: I'm assuming people are laughing at my jokes, but you know, I can't hear him, but I'll just assume that they're all laughing. Okay,

[00:05:35] perfect.

[00:05:40] So. I started my career way back in 1990 as a computer programmer at the limited fashion apparel, I was the first ever IT guy at a little startup called Bath and Body Works, and I really just fell in love with the business sides. I consider myself a business person who happens to love technology, not a technologist that works in business.

[00:06:01] And I'm 20 years as a CIO. And during that experience, I made a lot of mistakes, especially early on, and some of them costly. And it really inspired me to write a book about some of the mistakes I made, what lessons I learned and the goal was to help young people or people in their early in their career.

[00:06:18] Learning the easy way, right? Buy a book, read about it and do things better. I believe a rising tide raises all ships and especially in retail, we need to help each other out. So I'm hoping that this book will inspire and help everybody that reads it.

[00:06:30] Ricardo Belmar: Thank you, Andy. I'm sure everyone who does read your book in retail is going to greatly appreciate all the wonderful insights and stories that you've told in there, as well as all the great tips. Now, I know I certainly came away from reading the book with a number of them as well, and I'm not even a CIO.

[00:06:46] So I think everybody's going to have something to learn from that.

[00:06:49] Andy Laudato: My books for every man, woman, and child in the United States.

[00:06:52] Ricardo Belmar: There you go, there you go. That's the right way, right way to look at it. Now, not to mention the fact, I think we all agree that there's a good need for lots and lots of collaboration in the retail industry given all the current day and future challenges facing the industry,

[00:07:05] Laudato's Hierarchy of IT Needs

[00:07:05] Ricardo Belmar: So let's start in one particular area Andy, that you dive into right upfront in the book, and that's what you call Laudato's hierarchy of IT needs which as you might guess is based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[00:07:18] And while Maslow postulated of course that in order to achieve things like love, belonging esteem, and self actualization, you've got to first satisfy a lot of physiological needs, things like I don't know, little things like eating, drinking, sleeping and then safety needs. So I think you drew a really great analogy, to that, to put together your hierarchy of IT needs and not to steal too much thunder from that.

[00:07:40] Why don't you walk us through , your version of the pyramid and how that relates to running your night?

[00:07:46] Andy Laudato: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think a Maslow is saying, if you're being chased by a bear, you can't fall in love. Right? You got priorities. And so making sure you have air and food and water, and then you're safe, all these things have to happen.

[00:07:58] And we all want to innovate. We all talk about innovation and innovation is very important, but if the basic it needs are not met, it's just not going to happen. So at the very bottom of the Lodato hierarchy for IT is just, KTLO keep the lights on. And the emails have to email and the paychecks have to print in the registers, have to ring and the website has to perform and like it or not, if you're in it, leadership, this is your most important job.

[00:08:24] It can do a lot more harm than good. An amazing IT department's not going to make a company successful, but a failed IT department will, I don't care how nice your product is. If you can't sell it, you can't ship it. If you can't return it, then you're going to fail. This is the main job is keeping the lights on.

[00:08:41] It's not the exciting job, right? It's not the fun, sexy stuff we get to do like digital signs and things like that. The Trevor does, but it's at the foundation. So that's what you start with and you gotta figure it out and you have to have a well-oiled machine for nothing else matters. Every single CIO always talks about, they want a seat at the table.

[00:09:02] And a lot of times they'll tell you to demand a seat at the time. But it doesn't work. You have to earn your seat at the table and I'm talking about the exact table, the boardroom, and the reason you have to earn it is because in every company I've ever worked in the true org chart is the informal, not the formal.

[00:09:17] So let's assume that we get this figured out and you have the things running smoothly. The next level up then is what I call lean and efficient IT. So this is about first you get it right? And then you get it cheap. And lean and efficient. It means it's affordable. It's functioning well, because if you're a CIO and you start to go talk to other departments about programs and projects and systems, and your budgets are out of control, you just have no credibility.

[00:09:47] Now look, if you can't keep the lights on, you know, so you have a big problem, you're going to pay any amount of money possible. So you've got to get it right. Then you work on optimizing. And every dollar that you can save or avoid spending is a dollar that could be added to innovation. So if you really want to innovate, it's possible to self fund by finding other things, to make efficient.

[00:10:09] Ricardo Belmar: I want to turn to the Avengers panel members here and see what everybody thinks about those first two layers, keeping the lights on and creating that lean and efficient IT.

[00:10:18] Jeff Roster: Gosh. Well, the first question I want to ask is what's your, what's your overall it spend Andy, but, but I know you're not going to answer that. So keeping the lights on it used to be almost 60 to 70% of her, of an it budget was, was basically depending on how you define that, that case. I'm assuming that everyone's trying to drive that down.

[00:10:35] Is that part of the process that you're, you're going to.

[00:10:39] Andy Laudato: Yeah. So the first, the bottom of my pyramid is just keeping lights on any way you can. And then the lean and efficient it is about just that it's about optimizing your cost so that you can have a higher percentage that's going towards creating value and innovating.

[00:10:52] Casey Golden: Where do you think that we are right now in general for let's just say the predominant of retail. Do we feel like everybody has a core efficient we're beyond keeping the lights on and everybody's made those investments. Would you say it's like 60%, 80%? How close are we at? Like the core basic,

[00:11:12] Andy Laudato: you know, it's astonishing to me that it's 20 22 and in order to build a retail stack for omni-channel, you probably need to include at least 20 to 30 different companies. I mean, Everyone's got a different, and I know that a Microsoft's on their path to being able to , provide these as are others trying. But the leading e-commerce platforms are not the leading OMS platforms.

[00:11:34] I mean, I ask about subscriptions and then everyone tells you to use another platform. And then if you know, you look at the stack, people have on their websites, it's just layer after layer of these really niche. Functions and features. And so when you think about it, when I had a little short stint in healthcare and there were big enterprise tools and kind of ran the whole company.

[00:11:55] So I think we're there. Casey. I think that, most retailers have built these things, but it takes an awful lot of work, effort and coordination to keep them all working together. I mean, imagine if you wanted a new car and you had to buy your chassis from Ford and your steering wheel from Chevy and your engine from Honda,

[00:12:12] Casey Golden: that's a great analogy.

[00:12:14] Andy Laudato: And this is how we live

[00:12:16] in some of the parts don't exist. You've got to build those custom, right? And so this is what we're doing in retail. So where are we? We've come a long way, but it's still a giant mess.

[00:12:24] Casey Golden: I love that analogy. I want to see a diagram.

[00:12:29] Andy Laudato: I can go very fast.

[00:12:33] Trevor Sumner: I mean, that's certainly dovetails into my question, which is. You know, certainly the, the markets, the retail is changing faster than it ever has. And I think of IT almost like electricity, right? You don't think about electricity in your offices or in what you do on a day to day basis, but it powers everything that you do.

[00:12:50] Where the IT budget goes

[00:12:50] Trevor Sumner: Similarly, IT powers everything that you do. How do you think through like the different departments, whether it's marketing sales, supply chain in it. And how to think through budgets, innovation and managing that. Is it all, is all IT in the IT budget or like where is the line where it flirts into a department, even though it's powered by technology because these days technology is like electricity.

[00:13:20] Andy Laudato: Yeah. So I do agree, right? You walk in a room and flip the switch you want, you expect the light to come on. And a lot has to happen, there has to be a power plant and distribution and a lot had to happen, but it's there and it's figured out generally, except for in Texas, that stuff works. And so you pick up a telephone, at least an old fashioned telephone, and you expect the dial tone and it's the same thing with the internet, right?

[00:13:41] It's a commodity. And even past the internet, it's about the cloud having, you know, CPU, so processing and storage. So I absolutely do agree that it is a necessary, I mean, I was looking for a new place to live and I checked on what kind of internet is available and , we all remember used to have to research before we went to a hotel and how much was it going to charge? So I definitely agree with that.

[00:14:05] As far as where the budget should go. And I actually talk about this in the book. I'm a big fan of showback, not chargeback. So I do believe that the cost of technology should be an IT budget because if not, how can those costs be managed and how can you get to lean and efficient, which is the second step. Now showback is about actually letting everyone know how much of IT costs are being attributed to each of the different departments.

[00:14:30] But if you let the departments of a company pay for IT, then they're going to have a bigger say. So the head of marketing might be all in on the Amazon cloud. And the head of sales is all in on the Azure cloud and someone else wants to have their own computer. So, you know, the people writing the checks have a lot of power, so I'm not a proponent of individual departments paying for IT.

[00:14:51] Trevor Sumner: I guess, part of my question is. There's certainly, like you said, laptops, internet connectivity, but from a data perspective, let's say you have a customer data platform. Is that marketing budget is that IT budget? Is that being integrated into other systems for e-commerce or even supply chain?

[00:15:10] So then marketing heads into operations and everything needs to be talking to each other. And then there might be integration. Is it when you cross departments that it becomes IT. What is it versus a departmental technology spend in your world?

[00:15:27] Andy Laudato: Yeah, there just aren't that many siloed solutions. I mean, a customer data platform has this role in stores. It has role in the website ,it has a role in outbound marketing , it has a role in customer care. And so to have that and be in a single budget, to me, IT is the kind of the neutral party for that. So, yeah, I guess I'll repeat myself, but I'm a big proponent of anything that's technology , should be an IT budget because it's the glue that holds it together. I mean, there's a really good book called the corporate underpants by Tamra Adler. I think her name is, and it talks about how you could look at a company's website and kind of see the different departments. And I think when you start to silo your tech, then you're going to, it's going to show up to the customer.

[00:16:02] You're not going to be seamless to the customer if you're not seamless on the backend.

[00:16:06] Ricardo Belmar: So Andy, one thing that I'm going to ask you about there, on that specific point where, you just mentioned how that has an impact in giving the appearance and perception to the customer that it's all seamless. You make a point in the book about complacency and how that's the number one enemy of reliability.

[00:16:22] And when I saw that, that reminds me of a lot of conversations I've had with retailers in the past about consistency in execution at the store level, from store to store and how that also impacts that consumer perception of the whole retail brand. So when you mentioned it, in the context of, keeping the lights on,

[00:16:40] it's never really a solved thing, or you don't stop keeping the lights on ever. Right. It's always an ongoing thing. And that's why it's the foundation in your pyramid. Is that the right way to look at it?

[00:16:51] Andy Laudato: Yeah, absolutely. Ricardo we operate in a dynamic world. So whether it's bandwidth, you need more and more bandwidth, processing power, security measures.

[00:16:59] There's always new tools being added to the stack or existing tools being used differently. The bad guys are out there. They're, you know, they're continually coming up with new attack vectors. Like we're not having enough trouble, we're getting attacked by a bad actors. And so if you build it and it's great and you don't, nurture it, it's gonna fall apart.

[00:17:17] That's why it's a full time job. You know, they always have to just stay on top of KTLO and the more you do and the more routine and the more process that you can put in place and now even automation and AI, then the smoother it's going to go.

[00:17:28] Ricardo Belmar: And if you're doing that well, that should lead to, the lean and efficient IT part of the pyramid and make that easier. Right. If you're have that consistency and reliability.

[00:17:38] Andy Laudato: Right. I like to use the word institutionalized. If you can institutionalize a process, then it's bigger than just one person it's repeatable. I always start my day with a stand-up.

[00:17:47] We actually do a hundred person stand up every day at the vitamin shop with operations, our CEO's on there. And we just talk about what new systems or any changes, any problems. And so that becomes institutionalized that we're all talking about it and just gets really smooth. And as it gets smooth and automated and consistent, then it becomes cheaper, more affordable.

[00:18:04] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, that makes complete sense. Why don't you take us to the next layer of the pyramid?

[00:18:08] Creating Value

[00:18:08] Andy Laudato: Yeah, so the next one is called creating value and in a lot of cases, creating value is what many people think all that IT does, which is projects. So this is putting in maybe an accounting system or a new order management or all the different tools we talked about from a CDP.

[00:18:22] So you do a ROI and then you go to your FP and a group. You bicker over the benefits. She gets signed off, you hire an integrator and implement technology, and this is really important. But it's just not all IT does. Right. You only want to create value after you've got a nice firm foundation.

[00:18:37] You don't want to throw more tools or more software on a wobbly foundation. So probably the most common activity that apps group does. And I think the most important thing is to work on the right things. And this is why portfolio management is so important. So I do think that good project management practices do exist and agile has really brought a lot, especially on the software side.

[00:18:58] I actually created a class on project management on Udemy because I have kind of a passion for that. But portfolio management is important because even if you have a very well-run project, but you're not working on the right thing, then you're wasting your company's money or you just not optimizing the spend.

[00:19:14] So a couple of principles I'd like to share. The first one is stop starting and start finishing. People love to kick off projects because it feels like they're getting something done. It's like, oh, when are we going to get our new order management tool? Oh yeah. We had a meeting. We got some demos.

[00:19:28] Right? So starting a project doesn't deliver value. Working on a project does nothing but spend money. It's only when you deliver the features that you actually add value to your company. Another thing is a agile concept is called a WIP limit or work in process limit. And I contend I make the argument that everybody has too many concurrent projects going on.

[00:19:48] So my advice is to stop starting new things until you've finished at least 10 or 15% of what's in flight. If you have 20 projects in your company and you rank them one through 20 and you finish number one. Now you have 19 projects, what the company will typically do is they'll start a new project, right.

[00:20:04] Which will be your new number 20. Then you put people on it. What you're actually doing is you're putting people on, but you defined as the least important project in your whole company. So instead, what I recommend is that you take people that free up and then you add them to project the new number one.

[00:20:19] And this is an agile called swarming. Take your people and just continue to push really hard to complete the most important project as has been decided by your executive team and get it done and just, focus on completion and then that's creating value. And then finally we get to the top, it seems like a journey and it is, and that's when you get to innovate.

[00:20:37] So you've got a really well-oiled machine every day, just like Trevor said, It's like electricity, it just works. And , all your systems are smooth and they work. And then it doesn't cost you a lot of money. And honestly, when it's affordable, it doesn't even matter what budget it's in because it's a one and a half or 2% of the company's spend.

[00:20:54] And now you've got projects going on and everyone knows what number one is and it's getting done. I mean, if you just do all those three things, you're going to be a star, right. But now, if you get there, now you can start to focus attention on innovation. Because innovation is spending time and talent and treasure on things that probably won't work.

[00:21:12] So you're literally telling your company, we're going to spend money. We're going to take, hopefully our very best people, and we're going to have them do something that probably won't work. How do you do that if the first three aren't met? So in my mind you get all three working and then boom. Now , you've earned the right. to innovate.

[00:21:26] Choosing Innovation

[00:21:26] Casey Golden: That's a great point. How do you pick the next innovation or project to bring in when you have 19 other projects that haven't completed yet and started impacting the business? Because ideally you'd want to layer the next projects on top of the, the ones that have completed, you know, and that are starting to work in and be rolled out through the organization.

[00:21:47] Andy Laudato: Exactly. And when people have already done the work to say that those projects will succeed and they have an ROI that people believe in now you're trying to do something innovative that doesn't have that. So, you know, what I like to do is box some kind of funds and say, this is our R and D funds and our R and D people.

[00:22:03] But yeah, exactly what you said, Casey. And so now if your projects aren't completing on time and they're going over budget. Then it becomes next to impossible to ask for funds to try something innovative.

[00:22:14] Trevor Sumner: How do you think through you know, at perch, we do the majority of our deals directly with brands who are spending their trade dollars towards innovation.

[00:22:23] And often, it's being presented as category captaincy to almost look at an innovation project for the retailers. How do you think through brands bringing new innovations as part of that kind of budget, because it's still your resource, it's still your treasure and talent, right?

[00:22:40] Just in terms of time and how do you balance, what brands are trying to accomplish with what you're trying to accomplish as a retailer? You know, if the spend is coming from them.

[00:22:49] Andy Laudato: Yeah. I mean, it helps, right. If someone else is funding it. And so now all of a sudden it has the much lower burden to get approved. So I think that still has to fit into the priority or it has to be, somebody has to sponsor it as an innovation, but absolutely of course, if someone else's coming forward with, with funding it's an easier burden of the risk.

[00:23:09] Casey Golden: Andy, when you're thinking about, moving those budgets out of departments and into IT, I don't know if you're, if you're selling into a department, IT might be the last conversation that you have before contract signed. How do you see that having those business owners Working with IT.

[00:23:25] I know a lot of times they're not necessarily even in the same buildings. So being able to just even foster that type of a culture where you, you create that culture of being able to cross collaborate so that the business pain and the problems that our department's having is, is actually being presented and heard by IT.

[00:23:45] Andy Laudato: Right. Imagine a place where the CIO and the, the directors and managers and VPs, and IT understand the business and they understand the business goals and they're there to help something get done. Right. And they can become champions because almost all tools have to be integrated. They have to be the security.

[00:24:01] I mean, how many companies, you have a different user ID and password in your own company for every different system, right? That's, that's ridiculous, but that's normal. So, if IT is a partner, they build a single sign on tool or implement a single sign on tool that works across every, every single app. So the store person logs on once and it gets to all their different tools.

[00:24:20] And even though it's different tools, at least it feels more seamless if it's on a single pane of glass with a single password. So, I mean, it just starts with embracing IT, but I say all the time that IT has to meet the business, that 95% where they are, it's not about IT. It's about whatever the business is, right?

[00:24:37] Whatever we're selling and whoever our customers are. But yeah, IT in a different building is a nightmare. IT in a different floor with a different culture in different working conditions and different hours and just not part of a company culture and they have their own culture, then they're just a roadblock instead of a partner.

[00:24:52] So it's all gotta be fixed, but it starts with leadership.

[00:24:55] Casey Golden: If you could give one piece of advice to the companies that are looking to implement software this year that do have department budgets or manage it at the IT level. If you could give one piece of feedback on how to pull everyone together to make those decisions together, what do you think the first step is?

[00:25:12] Andy Laudato: This is not a direct answer, but I think the most important thing is to get those IT people working in the store, shopping on the website, really living, take a call from the customer care. Right? I mean, if you're a database analyst and it takes two minutes for the registered or run, that's like an interesting problem that you might ponder.

[00:25:31] If you're a store associate standing at a store and the line starts to form, cause register's not performing that two minutes is like an eternity. I mean, I've been there, you know, sweat comes dripping off and so getting that empathy by actually getting the people out of their, whatever they're working now, remote, you know, their home basements into stores is the most important thing I think to start with.

[00:25:51] Casey Golden: That's great.

[00:25:52] Shish Shridhar: Andy curious about your opinion about where innovation should sit in a company. I know a couple of years ago there was this big wave of innovation labs happening in retail. And many of them didn't quite survive very long and there was various reasons quoted for failure. Including that they were created for the wrong reasons.

[00:26:15] They were innovation theater. And they were disconnected from the business. All of those things, kind of curious about what your thoughts are on innovation labs and separate innovation teams within an organization versus integrated.

[00:26:30] Andy Laudato: That's a great question Shish it's kind of like when that e-comm started happening and the 1990 nines, then everybody said, oh, we gotta be in California. So they all built separate organizations. And look, we spent 10 years using the word digital, and now we're using the word innovation. I put up my book, we got to define what we mean by innovation. And so for me, it's coming up with solving an unmet need for a customer, right?

[00:26:53] I think about Uber having text taxis and the idea of paying someone to drive you somewhere, probably is as old as cars, you know, probably over a hundred years old, but Uber came up with a new way to deliver that. So that's innovation, even though it's just getting in someone's car and getting a ride and paying him for it, I think defining innovation is important.

[00:27:10] And for me, then it's got to be your best and brightest and boy, that's an easy thing to say. A hard thing to do because you know, and Casey alluded to it with projects, right? You got to take your best developers or project managers or business analyst or product owners, scrum masters off number one project and stick them on innovation.

[00:27:27] But yeah, I'm not a fan of separating people. Now look, we're all remote and I think we're all going to be remote. So that whole proximity thing is almost like a moot point in a sense. Yeah, I think it's gotta be part of it. I think an innovation project should be in the same list as everything else.

[00:27:42] I'm a huge fan of, and I call it a one list of having a single list force ranked one through X and not having a separate here's my department's projects or my department's money because you're just creating conflict internally. Now. Look, I've mostly worked at the biggest company I've worked at. You know, I worked at a $4 billion company.

[00:27:58] So if you're a really, really big company, probably different, but to me, one list of projects, one team, one partnership, all focused around the three or four business objectives is how the "must" gets done and how everyone can come together.

[00:28:10] Shish Shridhar: And you kind of mentioned something interesting, which is the unmet customer need and keeping focused on the customer. One of those aspects that was interesting for me was JC Penny's attempt at innovation and also maybe Virgin America's attempted innovation where the customer needs were not quite in focus when they did that.

[00:28:30] So that's interesting too.

[00:28:31] Scaling Innovation

[00:28:31] Andy Laudato: The thing I think is crazy about JC, like in retail and when we talk about stores, we can try something in one store and then do it in 12 and then do it in a hundred and then do it at a thousand. Right. And if we're talking about online, we can AB test. We AB test every feature.

[00:28:45] So we give it to 5% of the customers. So the fact that Penney's actually went to hundreds of hundreds of stores at the same time. It's astonishing. Right? Why would you, why would you do that? Make it, make sure get it right in the morning before you do it in 10.

[00:28:58] Casey Golden: Yeah. I'm a big advocate for doing those rollouts in your bottom doors.

[00:29:03] I'm like anything, almost anything will work in a flagship. . It produces great KPIs, but can you do it at and afford it on a bottom door?

[00:29:13] Andy Laudato: Yeah, that's a great point. And if you can't then of course you can't scale it, yeah.

[00:29:17] Casey Golden: Scale those up because if it doesn't work at a bottom door, then come on. We've only got, five top doors typically.

[00:29:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's, that's like my favorite thing that I've had to say to a number of retailers over the years is, almost every time your proof of concept will work when you do it at your, stores that you've tagged as the test stores, because they're always ready right there, anticipate, and they're there, know what to expect and they're having higher tolerance.

[00:29:41] If something doesn't work out in a proof of concept, then to your point, right, they pick your bottom doors where they can't tolerate anything not working. And you put something new in there and if you can make it work, then you've probably figured out how to make it work everywhere else.

[00:29:53] Casey Golden: Yeah, exactly. It's easy to scale it up. I've seen a lot of projects be rolled out with large budgets at a top door, and then it's, you know, one 25th of the budget to do it at a bottom door and it doesn't work and it's like, it's terrible experience.

[00:30:10] Trevor Sumner: Yeah, I guess, we see that too. I think overall, there's this trend to kind of personalize stores by geography, different product selection, different offerings.

[00:30:20] And I'd love your thoughts on how do you balance the importance of consistency and consistency and measurement consistency and standard operating procedures, consistency and systems with the desire to both innovate and regionalize and personalize

[00:30:38] Andy Laudato: yeah, you asking me Trevor or Casey.

[00:30:40] Trevor Sumner: I'm asking everybody, but you're the, you're the star this week, so

[00:30:44] Andy Laudato: Sure. That's a great question. I mean, we just rolled out our first franchise store. So this is really top of mind for us because you know, one of the benefits that we're looking for from franchisees is their creativity and bringing ideas back.

[00:30:56] Everyone knows like a franchisee came up with the big Mac and the $5 footlong, you know, But we want to make sure when you walk into the store, the customer shouldn't even know that that vitamin shop is not owned by the corporation. So I think it's all about guardrails and say, here's where you do not have leeway to change on branding on product.

[00:31:15] And here's where you do. So you kind of loosen the reins on local stores and whether it's assortment or culture or process or fixture design, but all within guardrails of the brand.

[00:31:27] Casey Golden: That's interesting that you guys opened up your first franchise. How are you dealing with, e-commerce and some of the tech stacks with the franchisees?

[00:31:36] Andy Laudato: We didn't really open up, how do we even think we sold the store, but we sold the territory. So think of it as a five mile circle. And so any e-commerce sale that happens.

[00:31:46] And that circle belongs to that. So we share a royalty on e-commerce sales. We have a reverse royalty if they sell something and I'm getting extra, but every single thing we're doing is being there's a participation from the franchisee. So even if there's a subscription they sell and then we fulfill it, we're going to give them a royalty on that.

[00:32:04] It's, it's a really neat model and we worked through it in detail. We just didn't want to compete against them. And a lot of people that were franchised in retail before, e-commerce, they're kind of struggling now with some of these, these things.

[00:32:14] Casey Golden: Yeah. It's been a definite struggle for a lot of fashion brands specifically in that franchise model in different countries, because they don't have access to the e-commerce store or a lot of the digital technology on the backend. So interesting.

[00:32:28] Ricardo Belmar: So Andy, I want to ask you a slightly different point. So in, in all of the areas that you've talked about on what you've learned are the best ways to do this. I'm curious, what kind of resistance have you come across from different organizations when you've tried to follow this approach, as you've outlined it in the book, as you're creating value and you're doing that to lead to innovation. And for example, you referenced concrete a lot in some of your examples . So I'm curious, where does that come from and is that anything to do with, you know, the kind of challenges and resistance you ran into through different organizations?

[00:33:01] Andy Laudato: Yeah. When I worked at a peer one, we built this new headquarters and we built this parking garage and everybody was so excited about the parking garage, right? It's you're going to park close LER, co it was covered. And I was just getting jealous of the parking garage because it was like this solid thing that you could see every day and you could see the progress and you could see the benefit like, oh yeah, I get to park my car in the sun and the shade.

[00:33:22] Meanwhile, I'm working on a million dollar new HR system and no one really can see what they're going to get and why we're doing it. So I just, to me, I talk about the parking garage is my project that I try. If we can make IT projects is visible as building a garage. I mean, because ultimately it's more important to pier one, to have a new HR system.

[00:33:41] Then they have really good parking for the employees, but no one really felt that way so we know where Pier one ended up . And then just in the hierarchy, it's about a firm foundation and really with two feet. So as you move up the pyramid, you got to have a firm foundation. So yeah, those are kind of some of the reasons I think about that.

[00:33:56] Just a little jealousy of a project that parking garage.

[00:33:59] Ricardo Belmar: I bet everyone has their own version of the parking garage story.

[00:34:03] Andy Laudato: So much of IT is nebulous and not tangible. Right. And so it's, it's our jobs to make it more, more tangible.

[00:34:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. I would expect that even when you're in the creating value project, how you state the value has to be pretty, pretty important part of the process to that point, because as you just said, if the, overall project is one of these I'll use the phrase kind of behind the scenes, projects where the outcome of the technology is something that employees are going to take for granted of, okay. It's just working and not think through why it's so critical for the business.

[00:34:33] How do you sell the value of those kinds of projects?

[00:34:35] Andy Laudato: Well, you got to start in, in the beginning, right. And be clear about what you're getting while you're getting it while you're doing it. I mean Shish mentioned AI. AI is really difficult in my mind to prove value because a lot of times you stick in data and then out comes the answer.

[00:34:47] And is it really the best answer and what was it based on? And, so if I can translate, a sentence from one language to another, that's pretty tangible. But if it's just send this offer to this customer, because she's more likely to buy this blue sweater instead of this pink one that that's a little trickier.

[00:35:02] Managing your team

[00:35:02] Ricardo Belmar: So, let me jump to another set of constants in the, in the book we've had in this room. And I think you've been in the audience for some of those. Andy's a lot of discussions around people and how you should treat the team. That work in your organization. And you have quite a bit to say about this in your book, on what the CIO's job is in terms of building the IT team, and actually how that team interacts, not just with, within their own teams, but also with other groups in the business. Can you tell us a little bit more about, what some of your views are and what are your suggestions are there and how, both from an organizational structure point of view, but just general ideas on how you should be managing the team to help foster innovation.

[00:35:41] Andy Laudato: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't know when I had this moment, but this was an aha moment in my career that really leading an IT department is not about technology. It's a people job. I can't configure a router or open up space on a cloud or program in AI.

[00:35:54] I can't do any of these things. And even if I could, I wouldn't have time to do it. So it's just about people and it's having to work with different constituents. I mean, I think we kind of got a feel for it today, right? Trevor has a, maybe a different opinion than Casey and I love that. .

[00:36:06] It's all about understanding everything. So it's, all about people, but yet the people we put in these jobs have a background like me. I went to technical school and learn how to program in COBOL. That's my education. So I had to learn these things, you know, through just my own education over the years.

[00:36:21] We think about people. It's about engagement and engagement to me is about, are we actually getting people's discretionary time? So for me, I do all my thinking. When I go out and long bicycle rides, I go out and think about how I'm going to solve the world's problems. So I spend a lot of my time riding my bike, doing laps at central park and thinking about how I'm gonna make things better at the vitamin shoppe.

[00:36:42] Now if instead I was spending my time thinking about how I was going to find a new job or horrible, my boss is, that's not engagement. To me, engagement is, am I getting peoples brain power, their creativity, their passion. So there's kind of this old joke that people quit and don't leave.

[00:36:57] They don't tell you, they quit. Nowadays, people are leaving, they're quitting and they're leaving. And so, understanding what each person is motivated by is a big, big deal for me. For a lot of tech people. And again, I won't stereotype for a lot. It's about getting to work on cool things. And so in some cases, innovation does become a motivator.

[00:37:14] I mean, if IT is just need is electricity, then it's not that exciting of a career. And people have choices. So as much as you can make, keep the lights on smooth and automated and free up your time and resources to work on the fun things, creating value and innovating, then that's a better chance that people are engaged.

[00:37:31] So you know, I do have a long list of ideas to take care of people. But one that I'd like to share is I think leaders need to focus on spending their most time with their best people. And I do believe that I've been coached by my HR partners to do the exact opposite.

[00:37:46] So you have a poor performer. You're supposed to be coaching them, writing them up, you know, giving them warnings And a lot of people think you take your best people and you leave them alone because they're great. And then there'll be happy. But my advice is do the exact opposite. I'd rather take a, A player to an, A plus than a F student to a D.

[00:38:02] So that's some advice that I've had to learn is and I learned it because, and it's in my book because I had an A player. Quit. And he said in his exit interview that he just felt kind of ignored and our philosophy was, oh, he's so valued. And he's so productive. We're going to leave him alone. And it just backfired.

[00:38:19] So that's when one of my 10 ideas I'd like to share

[00:38:22] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that was one of my favorites as well. In fact, one of the things I find in that particular approach is that when you spend time with those a players with those best team members, it, it tends to rub off on, let's call it that the next layer of team members.

[00:38:39] In the sense that when you're making that A player really happy in what they're doing. A lot of that happiness, I believe rubs off on other team members and helps elevate them as well. And it just kind of propagates that way and maybe you've found the same thing, but that's kind of the way I see that approach really working favorably in any organization.

[00:38:57] Andy Laudato: Yeah. I agree with that. And I have another concept that says be kind enough to let someone go. So the bad apple spoils the bunch is an absolute truth. And if someone's negative complaining a lot, they're going to go to lunch with the team. Or a virtual launch and that's going to drag the whole thing down.

[00:39:13] So people that are just not a fit in, and I believe that everybody's good at something. And so the reason I say, be kind enough to let someone go, if someone's not succeeding as a leader, as their manager, you are, it's your job to let them go so they can go find where they'll do well. I've had someone work for me, went off and became a successful stockbroker.

[00:39:30] Or maybe different, you know, people always land on their feet and they always seem to do better. You know, that we're succeeding after they leave the company. So, what you said, Ricardo, where the A-players and having that positive, and then you combine it with not having any people dragging the team down.

[00:39:45] Then all of a sudden the team becomes very high performant.

[00:39:47] Ricardo Belmar: And if you then couple that with one of the comments you made earlier about when the team that's working on that priority one project, when they finish and then you have them move down to the second most priority project, rather than having them start the next fresh project at the bottom of the list, I think that has that same kind of energy, right?

[00:40:06] Where that, that team now they're coming off having finished, you have to expect that they're quite happy and pleased and appropriately so, right, that they finished that project. And now they take that same kind of energy to the next project. And hopefully if that group that was working on the second priority, they were just as pleased to be working on that one.

[00:40:25] Now they've got these new people coming in with even more energy. You would hope that that helps drive that project to conclusion that much faster and so on down the line. So you get through all of them done.

[00:40:34] Andy Laudato: Yeah. You know, next time you talk to a CIO, everyone can do this, right. Say to them, you know, buy him a beer and say, do you think it makes sense to put your very best people on your most important project?

[00:40:43] Do you think every single person will say, of course we should put our very best people and our most important projects. Then I then say, "do you?",

[00:40:51] And the answer is no, it's always no, it's like, well, we put the next person up, right? The next person, the next project manager available next product. So everyone in common sense, sometimes we forget that course. You should put your very best people on your most important project. And because that's what gives it the most, the highest chance to succeed.

[00:41:09] But no one ever does that. They just don't, it's just resource modeling and people are not fungible. So you got to realize that.

[00:41:16] Ricardo Belmar: That's a good point.

[00:41:17] And while I wait to see if there are any questions Andy, one of your other concrete examples that stood out to me, you had a great quote where you said that sticking a group of people in a room and just telling them to innovate is no better than putting a seed on a concrete floor and telling it to grow.

[00:41:32] I think that's actually a very appropriate statement.

[00:41:36] Jeff Roster: That's a good one.

[00:41:37] Andy Laudato: This is where we talking about psychological safety, right? We're we're talking about risk taking and you just order someone to innovate. They're not, they don't feel safe to there's kind of an old joke. Maybe it's not a little, but fail fast, but not always.

[00:41:48] And so are you really willing to have a failure in retail? Are you willing to lose money? I think, risk-taking when you make where something doesn't work. Has to go with the education we all spent so much, you know, I borrowed money to go to college. You know, we all spend money on our children, lot of money, a lot of it borrowed.

[00:42:06] And because we all know how important education is. And so a very expensive innovation project that doesn't work. If you kind of pretend like it never happened, you wasted every dime. But if you talk out loud about why it didn't work, what you learned, what you learned about your customers yourself.

[00:42:21] It's just money well spent. So building a nurturing environment where people can feel safe and allowed to fail without getting fired is the key. And that's what I'm talking about there.

[00:42:31] And then I'll just end by saying it all goes back to the customer. Who's the customer, what am I doing this for. If your job is website developer, you're so far removed from the end customer sometimes. So just making sure that the people doing the work know who they're doing it for. They're not doing it for the scrum master.

[00:42:47] They're not doing it for the product owner. They're not doing it for the head of digital, you know, they're working on a feature for a customer. So to me, that should energize you because all of us, ultimately are customers. So we can, we can relate to that.

[00:42:58] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Well, any final thoughts that you want to leave the audience with on your journey to innovation?

[00:43:04] Andy Laudato: Thanks

[00:43:04] for

[00:43:04] coming . I love this stuff and I, I believe just strongly that we'll all go up together. And so I really appreciate the time and the opportunity.

[00:43:12] Ricardo Belmar: And I want to thank you, Andy again for agreeing to join us today. I think this has been a fantastic session. I think we all learned a lot.

[00:43:19] I, very much enjoyed reading your book. I know it's not a retail specific per se, but it definitely is worth the reads for everybody here listening, who hasn't already picked up a copy.

[00:43:29] And with that, I'm going to wish everyone a great rest of your day, wherever time zone you're in. And thanks for joining us. This has been another session in the retail razor room, and we will be back with a new topic, and we hope to see you then. Thanks everybody for joining us,

[00:43:43] Thanks,

[00:43:44] Casey Golden: Ricardo.

[00:43:44] Thanks Andrew.

[00:43:45]

[00:43:45] Interview with Andy

[00:43:45] Casey Golden: Welcome back everyone.

[00:43:51] Ricardo Belmar: I hope our listeners enjoyed that discussion as much as we did. And the best part is we've got Andy here with us now. Welcome to the show Andy

[00:43:59] Andy Laudato: Yeah. Hello, Ricardo and Casey. Great to see you again.

[00:44:02] Casey Golden: Great to see you actually see you.

[00:44:04] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly. Yeah. It's so great to see you. Although I guess our listeners can't see you, but that's okay. We can see you that that's what counts here. And in this case it was a real treat. Having you join our clubhouse room, Andy, and as usually happens with these sessions, right. There is just so much to talk about.

[00:44:19] It seems like we never have enough time to get through all the questions we want to ask and talk about. So in that spirit, we've got a few more questions for you

[00:44:27] Casey Golden: Talking a bit about career development. This is an important part of your book. And I've heard, you mentioned 70, 20, 10 rule. I love it. Can you fill in our listeners on what this means?

[00:44:40] Andy Laudato: Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of people, when they think about career development, they're looking for formal training. This could be going to a class or even out of college. You know, continuing education, but in the 1980s, it's something called the center for creative leadership. They did research and said, actually to develop in your career, formal training only will give you about 10% of what you need.

[00:45:01] So although it's important, it's not sufficient. And what they learned was that 20% comes from interaction with others. This could be what you learned for directly from your boss or mentors. So formal training and feedback directly from others, get you to the 30%, but the bulk of what you get to be successful in the move up in your career comes from actual experiences.

[00:45:24] So the 70 20 10 rule says that 70% comes from actual experiences, 20% from others and 10% from formal education. So that means if you're working with someone that works for you or you're looking to grow your career, you really need to look for opportunities to immerse people in the job. So this could be job shadowing.

[00:45:42] This could be a stretch assignment on another team. You know, this could be a hanging out on a special project. So it's just really important to think about. Don't just be pounding, the fist demanding formal education, although important. It's not, the whole picture.

[00:45:56] Ricardo Belmar: I really like that approach. It makes a lot of sense. So Andy understanding that rule now, what else can you tell us about your hiring preferences and practices?

[00:46:05] What, what do you look for in a candidate?

[00:46:07] Andy Laudato: Yeah. So I look for things that I can't teach somebody. I always say these are things you learned from your mother, or you got genetically, or you learned them in kindergarten, but by the time you get to me, it's too late. Right? So. I start with integrity. Someone needs to be honest and always do the right thing and, you know, without integrity, nothing else matters.

[00:46:25] And again, I don't feel like I can teach someone or coach someone to have integrity by the time they get to us. That's already been kind of ingrained in who they are as a person. The second one is intelligence, I can't make someone smarter. So that's my second one. The third one is ambition. Again, these are the things that people kind of come with inherently. What's your learning style? What are you doing to learn? Do you have drive or are you proactive? Do you push? And then finally temperament, you know, look in retail business there's ups and downs. And so, how do you handle yourself when something goes awry? So, yeah, all four of those integrity, intelligence, ambition and temperament are things that I specifically interview for because I feel like whatever the skill is that you need, whether it's, programming or creative, these are the things that people and should be able to learn.

[00:47:16] And especially in technology where things change so rapidly anyway, right? If you're an expert on this tech in two years, we're going to be using that tech. And so if you have the ambition and the intelligence and the interest of learning the new, you're going to be a more successful.

[00:47:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, that really makes up for whether you have the existing skill or not, it's something that you can learn, but it's the things that you can't learn that harder ones to seek out.

[00:47:39] Andy Laudato: Exactly.

[00:47:40] Casey Golden: you mentioned in your book. You talk about the true org chart is the informal one. What do you mean by that?

[00:47:47] Andy Laudato: Let me explain it, Casey, with an example. So you'll hear every person, who's a CIO say, I need a seat at the table. I have to have a seat at the table. There's a book called a seat at the table and you can demand it. You can insist on it. You know, you can do that, but so much, so much decision making at a company doesn't happen in the formal meetings.

[00:48:06] So to me, the informal org chart is when the CEO's looking to brainstorm on ideas, who's he going to invite to have a coffee or who she can invite to have a coffee, go to lunch. Just, you know, I want to run an idea by you. So to me, the informal org chart is where some decisions and debate, discussion, and brainstorming happen in a company that may or may not be how it's listed on the formal HR organizational charts.

[00:48:30] So to me, more important than a seat at the table is kind of a seat at the coffee shop. That you become the go-to person.

[00:48:38] Ricardo Belmar: you want to be the person that somebody, everybody calls.

[00:48:41] Casey Golden: Yeah, I got most of my budgets approved in the hallway.

[00:48:48] Ricardo Belmar: Isn't that true. Yeah. That's how it works. That's how it works. It's so true.

[00:48:51] Andy Laudato: Yeah. Another really important person on the informal org chart is always the executive assistants,

[00:48:57] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:48:58] Andy Laudato: Cause they got to decide

[00:48:59] Ricardo Belmar: But right. Yeah. Like the kind of the ultimate gatekeeper. Right. And who gets time.

[00:49:03] yeah.

[00:49:03] Yeah. That's right. That's so true.

[00:49:06] Andy Laudato: leaders in a company.

[00:49:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:49:10] absolutely.

[00:49:10] Andy Laudato: I remember that. Yeah,

[00:49:12] Ricardo Belmar: I'll walk and talk. Yeah. So true

[00:49:14] Andy Laudato: I have, when I was early in my career, my boss was a smoker and we used to have this smoking room and that's how old this story is from the nineties. And if I wanted to meet with them, I had to go suffer it out, you know, in

[00:49:24] Ricardo Belmar: in the smoking room.

[00:49:26] Andy Laudato: Yeah, I think I probably took five years

[00:49:28] off my life getting face time with my boss.

[00:49:33] Ricardo Belmar: You go, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, right. To get the time.

[00:49:36] Andy Laudato: Exactly.

[00:49:38] Ricardo Belmar: So one of my favorite concepts you bring up in the book, Andy, and something, I don't think we got to in the clubhouse sessions, which you call be a diode. Can you talk us through that?

[00:49:46] Andy Laudato: Yeah. So a diode is an electronic component. That's actually found inside computers, phones, and even everyone's actually heard of diodes because it's the D and light emitting diode or LEDs.

[00:49:57] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:49:59] Andy Laudato: And so the very simple thing that a diode does is it allows electricity to flow unimpeded in one direction. So the electricity goes into the diode and comes right out, but it completely blocks the flow of the electricity in the other direction.

[00:50:12] And so it's really important for computers because it's how we make gates to say yes, no on-off which ends up being binary. So the analogy that I like to use in business is that if you become a diode as a leader, anytime there's any kind of complaints, anger, problems, you as the leader block those. So just like the diode blocks of electricity, the current flowing in one direction you take all of the crap and stop it with you and don't let that ever get to your team. Now in the other direction is when there's praise compliments, you know, good jobs, those should flow right through the leader, not take the glory, but let that flow to your team. So if you're a leader that stands in front of the problems and protects your team, but doesn't stand and take the praise.

[00:50:58] You give that to your team. That's my analogy for being a diode as a leader. And I feel like the very best ones are the ones that exhibit these behaviors.

[00:51:05] Casey Golden: Absolutely.

[00:51:06] Ricardo Belmar: I love that one. I love that concept.

[00:51:08] Casey Golden: Yeah. I've never heard it like that before, but we we've all experienced that I feel in our careers. That's great. One last question for you, Andy. And this one is probably something you get all the time. What's the most important takeaway or lesson from your book?.

[00:51:21] Andy Laudato: Yeah. . When you think about innovation, what innovation is, is spending your companies, treasures it's money, it's talent, it's people. And it's time on something that probably won't work, right? Whatever data you look at, one in 10, things work one in 20 weeks. You know, you talk about having a career. We have all had

[00:51:38] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:51:39] Andy Laudato: wonderful ideas.

[00:51:40] We spent time and energy

[00:51:41] Ricardo Belmar: right. That's right.

[00:51:42] Andy Laudato: they don't work. And so in order to successfully innovate, you need to earn. And you earn the right by a building, a really well-run organized, trusted, you know, machine, And so that's why my is called fostering innovation. It's not called innovation. My book's really not about innovation.

[00:51:59] It's just creating this environment where have a firm foundation. People have psychological safety, you're in the right financial place that you're able to take time and money away from the day-to-day activities of running the business so you can stretch on innovation.

[00:52:14] Ricardo Belmar: Well, I love that, that makes so much sense, like so many other things, even in the retail business, , when you don't have that foundation, It's really hard to build anything successful on top of it. It's so critical to get those details, all those core elements right.

[00:52:28] And when I run through the book , you really bring that message home that it's not about the innovation necessarily as much as it is having that environment where innovation can happen and setting yourself up the right way so that you can create innovation because I think you're absolutely right. The whole premise is that, one out of 20, whatever it is is the one that's going to work and the other 10, 15, 19 aren't. that's okay. As long as your foundation let's you keep going.

[00:52:56] Andy Laudato: Yeah. Now that we're having in-person conferences again, I was just at a conference and I think then all the years when I go to conferences, there's always those few people that spend the entire three days in the hallway on their cell phones, talking back to the office. Cause they've got an implementation gone wrong or network down issue.

[00:53:11] Right. And so this to me, visualizes, the example of the person who's not in the presentation, learning about new things, innovating, interacting. Even though they spent money, they've ended up having to deal with putting out the fire, back home. And so it's just one real life example that, and you'll notice it now, but there's every conference, there'll be somebody

[00:53:32] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:53:33] Andy Laudato: unfortunate, somebody that's in a hallway on, you know, on the phone, dealing with that.

[00:53:37] They don't have a firm foundation.

[00:53:39] Casey Golden: That's And I think there's, there's so much value right now. So you kind of have these conversations. So many brands and retailers have inherited their tech stacks, or haven't really gone back to the foundation and really looking at it for can we implement new technology? What do we have?

[00:54:02] What's what is already in the works? And I thought you had a really great perspective something that I've really taken away. Is insights on project management for new technology initiatives on how to actually complete them? And I thought it was great, but I think every brand really should be looking at kind of doing house check, you know and kind of going back to that foundation and saying, well, just because we've been doing it for the last 25 years or 30 years. You know, most of the team is inherited what's existing and you're always working on what's oncoming on your plate and you have, there's no shortage of fire drills. We all know that. There isn't a lot of time dedicated to going back and looking at the foundation and saying , how are we set if we start stacking on top of this?

[00:54:49] Andy Laudato: Yeah, . Some people think it's boring or, you know, it's not value add, but I kind of make the joke that. Well, if you look at a pyramid, you always look at the top and go, wow, look how tall that pyramid is. Right? No one looks at the bottom rows. Isn't that amazing, but

[00:55:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:55:02] Andy Laudato: I bet there was some pyramids built with a really bad bottom row that just don't exist

[00:55:05] anymore.

[00:55:06] You know, only the ones left

[00:55:08] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Yeah. Cause they're

[00:55:09] the ones that didn't have that, that bottom foundation. Yeah.

[00:55:11] Casey Golden: no, it's great.

[00:55:13] Ricardo Belmar: Very true. Well, Andy, I have to say it's been a pleasure having you on the show and I really hope that we can get you back on soon. And of course, to have one final recommendation to everyone to rush out and buy a copy of Andy's book, Fostering Innovation.

[00:55:26] You'll be well rewarded for your efforts for giving it a good strong read.

[00:55:29] Casey Golden: I agree,

[00:55:30] Andy Laudato: Thanks for having me. It's been fun.

[00:55:32] Casey Golden: Yeah, Andy, if listeners want to learn more about you and follow your work, what's the best way for them to connect with you or stay in contact with some of your content,

[00:55:41] Andy Laudato: Yeah, for me, it's all about LinkedIn. In fact, in my book, I talk about how I use social media and LinkedIn is my one and only business platform. And so I think it's pretty easy to find me. The only trick is I go by Andrew on LinkedIn. That's my name on my birth certificate, but I go by Andy to my friends.

[00:55:57] But as long as you know, Andrew, then you'll find me easily.

[00:56:00] Casey Golden: Perfect.

[00:56:01] Ricardo Belmar: there you go. Well, Andy, thanks again for joining us.

[00:56:03] Andy Laudato: Yep. Thank you both.

[00:56:04] Casey Golden: Well, it's time to call this one a wrap Ricardo.

[00:56:07] Show Close

[00:56:07] Casey Golden: if you enjoy our show, please consider giving us that special five star rating and review on apple podcasts. Smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss a minute. Want to know more about what we talked about today? Take a look at the show notes for handy links and more deets.

[00:56:26] I'm your cohost Casey Golden.

[00:56:27] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about us, follow us on Twitter at casey c golden and ricardo underscore belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure and follow the show on LinkedIn and on Twitter at retail razor, and on our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and some bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.

[00:56:43] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.

[00:56:44] Ricardo Belmar: And remember there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter.

[00:56:51] Until next time, this is the retail razor show.

S1E12 – The Retail Avengers & The Future of Social Commerce

Welcome to Season 1, Episode 12 of The Retail Razor Show!

Social Commerce is one of the hottest (and noisiest!) topics in retail today! What exactly is it? How does livestreaming fit in? And what should retailers do to take advantage of this trend? As a retailer, how will you find the right platform to work with, and convert sales transactions? So many questions!

The Retail Avengers team is back with two special guests to cut through the clutter in social commerce: First, Mohamed Amer, a member of multiple retail tech advisory boards, a RetailWire BrainTrust member, and former global head of strategic communications for consumer industries at SAP. Second, a friend of the Retail Avengers on Clubhouse, Darius Vasefi, co-founder and CEO of Visional Commerce, host of the Retail Tech podcast, and frequent contract chief product officer. From our Retail Avengers team, Brandon Rael, Shish Shridhar and Jeff Roster join. Plus, for the recap returning guest, Alicia Esposito, VP of Content for Retail Touchpoints and a fellow RETHINK Retail top retail influencer, joins us to spice things up with some not-to-miss items you will not see coming!

Have you heard the news! We’re up to #20 on the Feedspot Top 60 Retail podcasts list, so please keep those 5-star reviews in Apple Podcasts coming! With your loyal help, we’ll be moving our way up the Top 20 in no time! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/

Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:

I’m Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University’s Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.

And I’m Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. I've spent my career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business. Now I slay franken-stacks!

The Retail Razor Show

Follow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazor

Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazor

Join our club on Clubhouse: http://bit.ly/RRazorClub

Listen to us on Callin: https://bit.ly/RRCallin

Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTube

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShow

Retail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPod

Host → Ricardo Belmar,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmar

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmar

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmar

Co-host → Casey Golden,

Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCasey

Connect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICasey

Read my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCasey

TRANSCRIPT

S1E12 The Retail Avengers & The Future of Social Commerce

[00:00:20] Introduction

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. And good evening, whatever time of day you're listening. Welcome. Welcome to season one episode 12 of the retail razor show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK retail top retail influencer, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.

[00:00:36] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host Casey golden CEO of Lux lock. I'm obsessed between the relationship of brands and consumers. The experience is everything. I spent my career on the fashion side and supply chain technology of the business. Now I'm slaying Franken stacks to power the future of commerce. 

[00:00:53] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Casey, this episode, we've got another amazing clubhouse discussion to share, and the topic is social commerce. Definitely one of the buzziest trends going on in retail right now. And of course, one of our 2022 predictions.

[00:01:06] Casey Golden: not surprised that our predictions keep working out this year.

[00:01:11] Ricardo Belmar: no kidding.

[00:01:11] Casey Golden: really hit a groove and dug into fundamental challenges to find these opportunities. I hate that I missed this clubhouse session. It's just a real treat for our listeners.

[00:01:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yes, indeed. It is. And keeping with last episodes example, we had two guests join the retail Avengers team this time in clubhouse. First, we had Mohamed Amer. Member of multiple retail tech advisory boards, a retail wire brain trust member, and former global head of strategic communications for consumer industries at SAP and second, a frequent friend of the retail Avengers on clubhouse, Darius Vasefi, a co-founder and CEO of visional commerce, host of the retail tech podcast and frequent contract chief product officer plus from our regular retail Avengers team, we had Brandon Rael, Shish Shridhar and Jeff Roster joining.

[00:01:57] Casey Golden: You guys took a deep dive on the value of current social commerce platforms and really identifying what works, what doesn't, and how live streaming is a centerpiece to this equation. I can't wait to listen and come back here and chat some more about it. Plus, we've got a repeat visitor to the show.

[00:02:15] Alicia Esposito from retail touchpoints, joining us for the recap.

[00:02:18] Ricardo Belmar: And spoiler alert. Our recap will have a few surprise discussion points that listeners will not see coming. So stick around.

[00:02:26] Casey Golden: I thought I was the one that takes us off script.

[00:02:28] Ricardo Belmar: No, I can do it too. You know, we have there's equal hosting privileges and everything.

[00:02:32] Casey Golden: In that case, let's go straight to the clubhouse session. Let's listen in to the Retail Avengers and the Future of Social Commerce. 

[00:02:44] Clubhouse Session

[00:02:44] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome everyone to the Retail Razor club. Our session today is the Retail Avengers and the Future of Social Commerce. So let me move into doing some introductions here with the folks we have up on stage. I'm Ricardo Belmar. I founded the retail razor club here on clubhouse, and I've been in the retail tech side of the industry for a better part of the last two decades working for different technology providers and managed service providers.

[00:03:08] Most recently joined Microsoft as a senior partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods. So I'm gonna move across the stage here. Darius, why don't you introduce yourself? 

[00:03:17] Darius Vasefi: Hey Ricardo. And everybody else good friends and the audience thanks for having me.

[00:03:22] My name is Darius Vasefi. I am the co-founder CEO of a company called Visional Commerce. As well as a startup studio called Infini Ventures. My passion is e-commerce and retail, especially retail tech, the picks and shovels of what makes retail and e-commerce move forward. So look forward to our interesting conversation today.

[00:03:42] Ricardo Belmar: All right, thanks. Darius, and we have another guest speaker today, Mohamed 

[00:03:45] Mohammed Amer: thank you very much, Ricardo. Mohamed Amer in Southern California Ventura area. And I've been in retail, retail technology for the past about two decades similar to you. And most of that time in the large enterprise space with with SAP. 

[00:04:02] Ricardo Belmar: Great. Thank you. Jeff. 

[00:04:03] Jeff Roster: Jeff Roster, former retail sector analyst for Gartner and IHL.

[00:04:07] Now a cohost on This Week In Innovation and serving on several advisory boards in retail. 

[00:04:12] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Thanks Jeff. Shish. 

[00:04:14] Shish Shridhar: Good afternoon. Shish. I've been in retail for about 20 years working with retailers specifically around AI, IOT analytics. I'm currently the retail lead for Microsoft for Startups and I'm building out a portfolio of innovative, disruptive startups.

[00:04:30] Thank you. 

[00:04:30] Ricardo Belmar: Thanks, Shish. And Brandon. 

[00:04:31] Brandon Rael: Well, everyone happy Friday. Brendan Rael, I'm up in the the Tristate New York area been in and around the retail consumer industry, my whole career, then made the shift over to the digital transformation work on the strategy side to help enable and empower retailers and consumer companies to accelerate growth and pivot to the new digital world we live in today.

[00:04:48] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Great. Thanks Brandon. So what do we mean when we say social commerce? When you hear those words start thinking immediately about all of the big social media platforms, places like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, even Twitter is now getting into the idea of social commerce. You're probably familiar with Facebook shops and Instagram as those have launched over recent years. And we also hear more about social commerce because of activities coming out of China.

[00:05:15] And as it moves into Western countries, we hear about live streaming and other specialized platforms that maybe focus around particular retail segments, like apparel and all of these things play together to enable an ability to have commerce, just like you want on your e-commerce site, but natively within some kind of social networking platform.

[00:05:34] So I wanted to share some stats just to put some of this into context, and then maybe we can go around and see what to everyone's reactions are to that. A number of these stats come from eMarketer. So for example, china's estimated social commerce sales are gonna be somewhere on the order of 315 billion, and social commerce will represent about 13% of all e-commerce sales in China. If we look at what's been happening in the us, e-marketer had an interesting forecast that this year we should see social commerce sales rise up to about 36 billion dollars, which is an increase of about 35% and will represent about 4.3% of all retail e-commerce sales.

[00:06:10] let go around the stage here and just get everyone's reaction. Darius, wanna start with you. What, what do you think about those stats? 

[00:06:15] Darius Vasefi: So I think definitely the difference between China and the us, I is something that I've also heard.

[00:06:21] Now one thing that I don't know as much about the details of what e-marketer means by social commerce is I guess one, one question that I would just like put out there, but I think if we make an assumption that they are talking about transactions made on some form of social media channel and then the definition of what do they think, what these social media channels is?

[00:06:46] Another thing we can probably talk about later, but I think the numbers sound good. And actually, I mean, the us definitely makes sense. 4.3%. The sounds about right, because it's just getting started here. 

[00:06:59] Ricardo Belmar: And my understanding reading through the e-marketer report, they are considering these to be any transactions originating from social media platforms, which they view right now the leaders in that being Facebook, Instagram but also up and coming from Pinterest, Twitter and Snapchat. 

[00:07:13] Jeff Roster: What do we do with live streaming though? Is that, I mean, I know that is social commerce, but that really isn't the social platform. It's a digital media platform, but