The Resilient Lawyer with Jeena Cho (Jeena Cho - Author of The Anxious Lawyer)

In this episode, I am so excited to have spoken to Debbi Mack. Debbi Mack is the New York Times bestselling author of IDENTITY CRISIS, the first book in the Sam McRae mystery series, featuring Maryland lawyer-sleuth Stephanie Ann "Sam" McRae. She has also written and published a young adult novel, INVISIBLE ME, a thriller called THE PLANCK FACTOR, and several short stories, including a Derringer nominee. Debbi's currently working on a new mystery and preparing to re-launch her Sam McRae series. She has her own podcast called The Crime Cafe, where she interviews other crime, suspense, and thriller authors. Debbi has also written two feature film screenplays, including an adaptation of her first novel, an original TV pilot and a short film script. A native of Queens, NY, Debbi currently lives in Columbia, MD, with her husband and cats.

Topics Covered

• Her diverse background which led her from law, to working with the EPA, and ultimately how it played a crucial role in her current writing works today.
• The "superiority" lawyers can feel that can hinder and alienate them from others, and how to combat this with a healthy perception of self and their career.
• She dives into the writing process; how she puts pen to paper, who she writes for, and how her writing is an expression of her self in a way. She also talks on the "creative sprint," and how it can help spark creativity in those that don't feel they are creative.

You can learn more about Debbi and her work at:

Website
Twitter
Youtube

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

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Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Today's show is sponsored by Spotlight Branding. Spotlight Branding works exclusively with solo and small law firms to brand them as trusted, credible experts and help them stand out in a crowded marketplace. Their services include web design, social media, video marketing and more.

Debbi Mack: [00:00:28] Being able to effectively balance your work with your life. And that sounds a bit trite, but your work should fold in neatly with what you want to do in your life.

Intro: [00:00:44] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:08] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am so delighted to have Debbi Mack, who is a New York Times best-selling author of "Identity Crisis." She has also written and published a young-adult novel, "Invisible Me," and a thriller called "The Planck Factor." Debbi's currently working on a new mystery and preparing to relaunch her Sam McRae series. She has her own podcast called Crime Cafe, where she interviews other crime, suspense, and thriller authors.

[00:01:38] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, please go back and check it out. I shared a short, six-minute guided meditation to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course Mindful Pause, and all of the components of Mindful Pause is designed to be done in six minutes. For obvious reasons for the lawyers out there, and it's really designed to fit into your very busy schedule. So head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more. And with that, here is Debbi. Debbi welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast, I am so happy to have you here.

Debbi Mack: [00:02:14] Well I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me on Jeena.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:17] So let's just start by having you give us a short 30-second introduction, I know you've done so much with your life. I want to dive into all of that, but just give us a little overview of who you are and what you do.

Debbi Mack: [00:02:32] Who I am and what I do. My gosh, I do so much these days that I guess I'll just say that I am an author and a screenwriter; that seems to be the best definition for what I am and what I do. I blog. I have a podcast, and what I'm working on now is a few things actually; I'm going to relaunch my Sam McRae mystery series, which is four books actually, only two of them are out right now. One of them in print, but it's with a small press and I have made a decision actually to go out again as an indie author with that series. It's not that I did not like the publisher; it's more about trying to get the product out faster. I think these days you really have to be kind of attuned to that.

[00:03:36] Unfortunately there's kind of a pressure on authors these days to publish fast, and I don't write particularly fast. And so I'm working on this other series that I started before I got into these discussions with the publisher. They're a really great publisher in terms of supporting their own authors, but again I just felt like you know, this is the time for me to take all the content that I have that's already been out there and get it out there again. So, but at the same time I'm also working on screen screenwriting; I have a feature-length screenplay that made the semifinals in the Scriptapalooza contest last year.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:26] Oh wow.

Debbi Mack: [00:04:26] Yeah that was, that felt like a real honor. I also have a TV pilot that I'm working on, and I have a short film script that I would possibly like to produce myself, with help from others who are more familiar with the techniques I guess is the right term. I mean I'm getting familiar with the industry for sure, but I have always written kind of with visuals in mind (let's put it that way), and with adaptation to the screen in mind. But screenwriting strips it down to its very essentials..storytelling. And it's caused me to exercise a whole nother set of skills, in terms of writing and editing. And looking at my work and saying okay, what can I cut here? What do I really need to tell this story and to tell you about these people?

Jeena Cho: [00:05:32] Yeah, and you know it's so funny because I was kind of struck by the fact that of all the descriptors that you used to describe yourself, one of them was not an attorney. And it's so interesting because I think so many lawyers sort of identify so much of who they are with what they do. But maybe that's a good place to kind of start your journey and kind of unpack it a little bit. So you were an attorney?

Debbi Mack: [00:06:00] Yes, I was. I practiced law for nine years and I was with different federal agencies. I started off with the Social Security Administration, actually. I was doing appeals to federal court. I actually got to appear before the 8th Circuit on one case, and it was like my first year practicing as a lawyer and I got to go before the 8th Circuit.

[00:06:24] I was like, oh my god. And I tried not to be really nervous about it but I'll never forget; I was there and there was this water pitcher, and I poured myself a little water and somehow or other some of it was splashing all over the table.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:41] Of course it did.

Debbi Mack: [00:06:41] I was like, okay this is not happening. I heard somebody snickering behind me and I was just like, ahem, I'm playing it cool. I'm taking a piece of pad paper and putting it down there and going, yeah yeah okay, that didn't happen. Pay no attention to me. But it was really a unique experience. And but it kind of a grind, to do these briefs. It was during the Reagan administration. And well, what can I say? I mean Social Security during the Reagan administration. Let's just say there were a lot of appeals.

[00:07:26] So I thought, I've got to do something else. I need something that I can do other than just crank out these briefs. And I went to work at a law firm. It was a local law firm in Prince George's County, Maryland. And started off in litigation and ended up going into land use. And when I was in land use I became interested in environmental law, so I thought, you know what I really want to do? I want to become an environmental lawyer. I made a decision at that point, okay let's focus on a specific niche, and I made it environmental Law. So I was looking and looking for a job, and happened to know somebody who knew someone else at EPA. And I got the job, but it was not as an attorney. It was as an Environmental Protection Specialist, which is basically fancy language for like, project manager or something. I was supposed to manage groups that were doing like rule-making, or thinking about rule-making. And I worked in the Office of Toxic Substances, where they effectuated the Toxic Substances Control Act. I don't know if you've ever heard of TOSCA.

[00:08:51] Most people have not heard of TOSCA. You see, it's one of those little known environmental statutes that I always think kind of gets overlooked in the grand scheme of things. Along with FIFRA, The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act; that covers pesticides. And it used to be enabled by the Department of Agriculture.

[00:09:17] So they used to do the reg-making for FIFRA, but now it's with the EPA. And so TOSCA is, well any environmental lawyer will tell you that it's a problematic statute in many ways, and difficult to write regs for. The whole area is difficult to regulate, and there was a whole nother set of issues with FIFRA. But it fascinated me because I had studied science at one point, so I was really intrigued with working with scientists while I was at the EPA. I enjoyed doing that.

[00:09:56] But I will tell you, I live in Columbia, Maryland, and of course I was commuting into D.C. I was getting up at like 4:30 in the morning every single day, getting on a train, and it was taking me more than an hour to get to work every day. Also, EPA had some sick-building issues at that time, and I was just coming home exhausted at the end of the day; it was a long day. And as much as I enjoyed working at EPA and the people I worked with, I just said you know, I need a life; I need something other than being on this train, going to work every day. I hadn't imagined doing this for the rest of my life. So that's how I ended up actually opening my own office.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:51] Oh okay, yeah.

Debbi Mack: [00:10:56] From there I went toward opening my own office, I took a lot of Marilyn's continuing legal education courses to try to prepare me for that. I had a lot of material that really helped out, in terms of forms, and I met people; I ended up meeting two women who ended up sharing office space with. So they were there as kind-of mentors in a way, because they had started their offices right out of law school.

[00:11:29] And I just thought that was the most admirable thing to be able to do, to just launch themselves out there like that. But those first couple of years that I did that were so rough financially, I was just like I can't believe I'm doing this. I wonder if I will ever make any money doing this. And it was a general practice, I was doing basically whatever came in the door; your wills, your DWI's, this that and the other. And at some point I somehow got in contact with, I think she was a lawyer and accountant who had decided to go into freelance writing. And that's when I started doing work for Matthew Bender, and at the same time I'd always been interested in writing fiction, always. There was always a part of me, like when I was doing something like making copies or faxing something, or doing something very administrative, where I would say, you know while I'm standing here doing this, I could be writing my novel.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:44] Oh how interesting.

Debbi Mack: [00:12:46] I mean, I kept thinking about that. I kept thinking about the time that I wasn't writing while I was doing other things. And it just spurred me at some point to say okay, I am going to sit down and I'm going to start writing something. And whether it's any good or not, we'll see. And of course, the first things I wrote were just terrible. I mean, my husband doesn't hold back when it comes to criticism; he basically said, this is just not working, it sucks, it's boring, it's not going anywhere. I said I know that, I'm just not sure how to take it anywhere else. So I mean, I took a class on mystery writing and horror writing. I started reading a lot of mysteries, and what I did is I would really read critically. I would look at what people were doing in the books that made me interested, and I thought okay, this is how it works.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] Like I want to actually pause for a moment and just ask you, like when you wrote that first draft and it sucked and your husband told you it sucked, I feel like for so many lawyers, they would be like oh my gosh I clearly suck at this. I should just give up. Was there any part of you that thought that? Or was it just like no, this is my first draft and I'll get better through practice. What was your mindset?

Debbi Mack: [00:14:20] My mindset was, I knew I could get better with practice. I just knew it, because I think it's that way with everything. I mean, when I started law school I didn't think I was going to make it as a law student. There were times when I thought I would just say, oh the hell with this I'm going to drop out because this is just so dull. briefing these cases over and over and over and over and over again. But then I thought, the subject is so interesting, every time I read a case I'm so interested in what I read. And at the same time, I also thought it was very special knowledge.

[00:15:06] Now you know, it's funny that you mentioned that I didn't say I was an attorney. Because at this point I'm not practicing, so technically I'm a lawyer. And it's funny how I don't self-identify that way, because I actually feel very much like a lawyer. I mean, I still think like a lawyer. But at the same time, it's as if I want people to feel like I'm not just defined as a lawyer. Or I'm a lawyer who happens to write, or I'm a writer who happens to be a lawyer or something like that. Sometimes people are put off by that whole lawyer aura, if you know what I'm saying.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:52] Oh totally, right. When you were a lawyer though, did you strongly identify yourself as a lawyer? Or did you just think, I'm a person and what I do for a living is law?

Debbi Mack: [00:16:04] Well it's funny, I did actually identify very strongly as a lawyer. And this is interesting, I mean your own self-perceptions do have to change a little bit when you get into a new field. You have to stop thinking of yourself as "better" or, I don't know what the right word is without being a little insulting..I tended to notice with some attorneys there was this kind of air of, well I'm better than that person because I have a law degree. You have to kind of get away from that feeling, you know. It's kind of like being in this club or organization, where you're all members of the club and you all know the language.

[00:17:05] And I mean I like that part of it, I like the part of it where you could just talk to people and they would totally get what you were saying. In fact, I recently went to my law school reunion not knowing how it was going to be, and I had a great time. I had an absolutely great time. It was so great to talk to other lawyers.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:31] Yeah.

Debbi Mack: [00:17:32] I don't get to have those conversations very much. And it was good to be able to tell them about what I'm doing, and they were excited by it. And I recognized people, it was just great to be there.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:47] Do you not have that sense when you're hanging out with other writers? Is it different than hanging out with other lawyers?

Debbi Mack: [00:17:57] It's, it's different. Hanging out with writers, you have different commonalities; you have different subjects that you share. It's a different club, so to speak; it's a different group, a different universe or something. When you're talking to other writers, we all know what a struggle it is to write and to publish and to find our readership, that sort of thing.

[00:18:30] With lawyers, there's the struggle I guess to market without violating any professional responsibility rules, to handle cases properly, all of those things. I mean, I know all of those pressures. I know what all of those pressures are like. And I can appreciate them. So when anybody says something mean or wrong about lawyers, it's like I want to set them right. In fact, the Sam McRae mystery series was inspired by my desire to present a lawyer in a good light, somebody who really cared about her clients, almost to her detriment. And that to me was a challenge. It was like, okay you know a lot of times in detective fiction, detectives will lie to find things out about themselves.

[00:19:44] And I thought, Sam isn't like that. Sam is not going to misrepresent herself. She will always be very above-board and ethical. Although, she has had those moments where she's had to kind of agonize over whether she was crossing the line. And that's part of the inner conflict of that character in the story, you know? So yeah, I do identify as a lawyer, but I don't do it to the exclusion of all else. It's not like being a lawyer is the be-all and end-all for me anymore.

[00:20:21] I mean, at one time I felt a distinct kind of sense of loss about not being in the profession. Because I was no longer in the profession, I was no longer practicing. And it was like, gosh I'm not with them anymore. I'm just me. But then it was okay, you know it was like you know what you're getting in exchange? That's the way I had to think of it. You're getting something in exchange for letting go of that. And it's that letting go that really felt good.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:57] Yeah, and so much of life is like that, right? It's a series of surrendering one thing to gain something different, or making room for something different. And it's not really clear exactly what you're giving it up for even.

Debbi Mack: [00:21:14] Yeah, oh I know. And believe me, I didn't get into this with the expectation of becoming a best-selling anything. All I wanted to do was to write and make a living at it. And it's still a continuing process.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:35] Yeah, yeah. So I've heard authors or writers talk about this in different ways, and I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on it. When you write, who are you writing for? Are you writing for yourself and this is something that you do because it's a way that you're expressing yourself? Or are you writing it for your potential readers? Like when you're writing, do you have an avatar of your ideal reader in mind that you're writing for?

Debbi Mack: [00:22:10] I don't think I'm writing for an avatar, but I do think I'm marketing to an avatar. When I write, I think it's really more of an expression of the things that I want to say. I know that there's an audience for this particular type of work, because I see it all the time. So, writing within a certain genre's conventions will lead you to that audience, or at some point that audience will grow interested in your work. I chose mystery because I heard somewhere (I love mysteries, I've loved them all my life) that if you can write a mystery, you can write anything. That's what I've heard anyway.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:05] I think it's because you have to get everything, all those clues and everything in there and have the plot makes sense in the end; have everything tied up. And there's a lot to that, for me it's a lot of plotting. That's a tough thing. But when it comes to actually writing, I think a lot of it has to be inspired by your own desire to express something. That's what I hear from other writers too. It's like, well you know, I grew up in Brooklyn and these are the kinds of things that I experienced. Or I grew up in such and such a place, and you can hear it in what they say.

[00:23:50] The things that they express, a lot of it is the kind of stories that you would like to see, that you wish you could see. For me it's like, when I was a kid there weren't very many strong female characters on TV (and I was just a compulsive TV watcher as a kid) and in the movies either. So my desire was to write strong women. And so Sam is a strong woman I think, and a lot of it is really inspired by that; the desire to see something that isn't there.

[00:24:38] Or is there but it is my own take on it. It's there now more because a lot of authors started doing strong women before I got involved. But now it's my own take on that.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:52] Yeah, and to me it sounds like there's some level of actually validating your life experience by sharing and saying, this is my story. And even though it's in a fictional form, it's an expression of who you are and what you want to say. And I would imagine that's really just comforting to be able to tell your story.

Debbi Mack: [00:25:21] It is in a sense. But I like to make sure that people know that I'm not Sam, because Sam is so different from me. Sometimes I actually look to other attorneys that I knew who were strong women, and thought what would she do in this circumstance? Because I found I had to get outside myself a little bit, you know? I had to come up with a snappier, more sarcastic answer than even I would even do to somebody, or a thought. You know it's like, I can't just write about me, I have to write about this person Sam. She's different, she's stronger, she's better. I like to think of her as a stronger, better version of myself. The person I would be if I were a stronger attorney, or a stronger person and wanted to be an attorney.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:16] So did writing that book and having to imagine a better, stronger version of you, did that change you in some way?

Debbi Mack: [00:26:31] Gosh I don't know. I hadn't really thought about that. I think that if anything, exploring the relationships between Sam and the various people who end up becoming recurring characters have spurred the additional ideas I've gotten for more books and sequels. Because I've always wanted to make it a series, I've wanted to make it the Sam McRae mystery series. And I had ideas for at least three books. And actually, the first book in the series, the one that made the New York Times bestseller list, was the second book that I wrote. The first book that I wrote, which needed a lot of work, ended up becoming the fourth book.

[00:27:25] And there is a reader of mine and a friend, who is very honest (he wouldn't hold back if he didn't like it), he said, I think this fourth one might be the best one in the series. And I was like, oh my god it's come a long way from those first drafts. So you see, there's hope.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:49] Yeah, yeah. So you wrote the first book and you showed it to your husband and he said it was terrible. How long did it take you before you felt like it was better?

Debbi Mack: [00:28:06] You know, I don't remember exactly how long it took, but I know that it didn't take long for me to make the decisions that needed to be made to turn it around. Let's put it that way. You see, when I was writing it I knew in the back of my mind this is not going anywhere, but I showed it to him anyway. And he said, this is not doing it. And so it's as if I had a sixth sense about it. It's like, okay I know I'm not doing this right, I know I can do something to fix it. It's just a matter of doing it, of sitting down and figuring out the problem and getting it fixed. And I think anybody who practices law, I know attorneys who practice law who write extremely well, who are doing wonderful work and are getting published. And I've had them on my own show, I mean think of John Grisham or Scott Turow. Look at these people, Lisa Scottoline. These are lawyers who write fiction.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:19] Yeah and I think you know, there is a certain mindset that has to shift to say I am more than just a lawyer, that I can do these things and that I can have interests outside of the office.

Debbi Mack: [00:29:33] Oh you can, yes yes yes.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:35] But you know, I don't think it comes naturally for most lawyers. We're kind of taught or trained to have this very singular focus. And also, it seems like the messaging is that if you divert your attention and do anything different, then that's going to end up hindering your ability to be an excellent lawyer.

Debbi Mack: [00:29:59] I hear completely what you're saying. And it's funny how this starts in law school, it's a terrible thing. But I think a lot of it is old type thinking, because when I went back to the law school, I've been doing moot court, I've been doing these mock trials actually, regional mock trials. I'll show up and be a judge. So, it's interesting to see the kinds of posters that I see now around the law school. I see posters for mindfulness and all this kind of stuff. I remember when I was at, my first year in law school was at GW and I couldn't afford it. So I ended up transferring to the University of Maryland.

[00:30:49] But while I was at GW, I remember distinctly somebody coming by and talking about if you ever need stress relief, we do art therapy. And there were these two guys sitting nearby, and they were in front of me and they looked at each other and just sort of snickered. And I was like, hello! I mean, this person is trying to help you, and you're snickering. Don't be snickering at art therapy, dude.

[00:31:23] I think what lawyers are afraid of is that feeling of letting go, that feeling of just allowing their minds to wander a bit off of the logic path. Now, you're not going to stop being logical simply because you do this. Seriously. Especially if you write something like crime fiction, because you have to have the story make sense. I mean, if you're writing something along the lines of, who is that guy, Burroughs? Or some of these beat poets or whatever. Okay that's wild stuff, okay if you do something that's really far out, out there. Yeah, sure. I mean you get a little crazy, but that's not going to change your ability to think. Even if you do that, it's all about what you want to express. And a lot of times that expression can come out of the very thing that you're doing. Let's say your own day-to-day frustrations as a lawyer. I certainly see my own frustrations as a lawyer expressed in Sam. I mean, there were times when I would just shake my head at some of the things that I saw. Where I said, this is unjust, this is wrong. And I see lots of things in the news now where I just say, oh my god I know Sam would be appalled.

[00:33:00] I see so many ideas out there that I can't begin to write all the stories that I could write about them. And it's a matter of queuing them up, like planes waiting to take off, you know? They're just there, waiting to be written about.

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Jeena Cho: [00:34:23] Yeah I love that, that you gave yourself the permission to explore and do things. I felt this way at certain points in my life, like I remember being younger and loving to draw. But then I graduated from law school and I felt like, well I don't have the permission to do that. Like no one gave me permission so I can write fiction or draw or paint or sew, or do all of these things. And I don't know where that idea came from, but it was just so strong inside of me.

Debbi Mack: [00:35:01] Oh my gosh, well I have a recommendation for anybody such as yourself. It's called "the creative sprint," and it's something that I have taken up actually. Noah Scalin, and his last name is spelled "S-C-A-L-I-N," Noah is the first name. And there's a book called "Creative Sprint."

[00:35:24] And the thing is, if you sign up for the emails, every now and then they do this thing called "creative sprint," where if you want to participate, you make something based on a prompt that they give you every day for a month or so, and then you post it on social media somewhere.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:48] I love this.

Debbi Mack: [00:35:50] It's great, it's fantastic. And, so I've been doing it every now and then. In fact, I want to put together a video of what I did.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:59] Oh, that'd be so awesome.

Debbi Mack: [00:36:02] I'm going to have to do that, because some of the stuff I did was pretty wild. I did a video of me singing the lyrics to the Star Trek theme as William Shatner would do it. I was using a William Shatner style, you know. Have you ever heard him do "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?"

Jeena Cho: [00:36:26] No, I'm going to have to look this up.

Debbi Mack: [00:36:28] Oh my god. You haven't lived until you've heard William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."

Jeena Cho: [00:36:35] Okay, I'm going to look this up.

Debbi Mack: [00:36:39] Look it up on YouTube, William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds." You will die. So I decided to do the lyrics to the Star Trek original theme as William Shatner would do it.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:54] That's awesome.

Debbi Mack: [00:36:56] Give yourself permission to do things like that, and you'll be on your way toward doing fun stuff.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:04] It's okay to do it. Yeah. So I want to shift gears a little bit, so think you have sort of hit that benchmark that I think every writer aspires to, which is to hit the New York Times Best Sellers List. So I'm curious, how did that happen? And tips or suggestions do you have for other aspiring authors?

Debbi Mack: [00:37:30] Get in a time machine, go back to 2009. Self-publish your book and offer it for 99 cents on Kindle and Nook. And oh, and have five blogs while you're at it.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:49] Wow.

Debbi Mack: [00:37:49] At the time, I had five blogs. I was reviewing books; I was doing reviews for Mystery Scene magazine. I was blogging like crazy, like I said. I was tweeting like crazy. I had these 99 cent books, and I was making more money with 99 cent books than I was making pricing them at $2.99 or higher, with the higher royalty rate, because of the sheer volume. So I thought, why would I want to raise the price and have this income drop? And then of course, when Nook came along, that was another platform. So I was on Kindle and Nook, and being on Kindle and Nook qualified me for consideration on the list. And then I made enough sales, simply by sheer volume. I think there was some kind of promotion that Nook did at one time, and I was just picked out. It was not even something I asked for, me and another author's book were featured, and I think that must have boosted my Nook sales. And the combination of great Kindle sales and Nook sales together caused my book to peak in late March early April. So I made the list twice. And I was like, wow, oh my god.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:22] So you didn't write the book thinking, this is going to be a New York Times Bestseller and have some grand scheme for making it there?

Debbi Mack: [00:39:28] No, I had no grand scheme whatsoever. I had no idea what I was doing half the time. I was just essentially, I was blogging about my life as a writer. In fact, my blog at that time was called "My Life on the Midlist." "Debbi Mack, My Life on the Midlist," something like that. It was kind of a take-off of "Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List" because I always felt like I was pretty much a nobody. And I still feel like nobody, which is good. I don't want to be a famous writer or anything, that would be like.. no, no, no.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:10] I don't know, I feel like once you make The New York Times Bestseller's List it's hard to say that you're not a famous writer.

Debbi Mack: [00:40:15] But I'm not! That's the funny part. Unless you're in stores, you know what I mean? Unless you're in stores, if you're on the New York Times List as an e-book writer, it's very different than being on the New York Times List as a print book author. So I don't know, I don't think I'm famous so much as I've had some financial success, and I have had some marketing success. I think that's really the thing, I'm still in the process of what I would call "putting my tribe together." You know, my real big fans.

Jeena Cho: [00:41:01] What does that process look like to you, put your tribe together? What does that look like sort of on a day-to-day basis? And let's say a month-to-month and year-to-year basis?

Debbi Mack: [00:41:14] I would say on the day-to-day basis, what I like to do is try to blog on my author blog at least once a week. And that doesn't count my Crime Cafe posts, I like to have something up there that's mine. And often it's a book review, or I've started something I call "Myths About the Law." And I try to dispel what people think about lawyers. Like for instance, I had one post that said, I had read this book by a comedy writer. I won't say his name, but he's a wonderful comedy writer. But he said something about the movie "Liar Liar." And he said, "This guy can't lie because his kid wishes for it. How's he going to do his job, because he's a lawyer. He has to lie, right? And I'm like, ahem no.

[00:42:17] So I said, no this is wrong. This is not what lawyers do for a living. In fact, if you watch the movie you'll see that he learns how to become a better lawyer by not lying. That's actually the message in the movie. And it's also an extremely funny movie. It's a great movie.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:37] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the thing that's hard. You have to put in that persistent and consistent effort and that building or finding your tribe doesn't happen overnight, obviously.

Debbi Mack: [00:42:54] I kind of like the idea of joint efforts, of joint marketing efforts, because the more we can help each other the better off we are. And that's something about the legal profession that people don't appreciate either. They don't realize how collegial it is. I mean, there's of course conflict between people when there is litigation or a situation where there's something that needs to be negotiated. There can be a degree of conflict of course. But at the same time, the legal profession I have always found was very collegial.

[00:43:34] I've worked in remarkably collegial circumstances, I guess. I've been very fortunate to work with people who work together well and share advice, that kind of thing. I know that there are probably law firms and things out there, places where people aren't like that. But I would say if that's the kind of place where you're working, maybe it's not the best place to be if it's causing you stress. Because you should be able to be happy with what you're doing with your life, not doing something that stresses you out.

Jeena Cho: [00:44:17] Yeah. And also it seems like there are attorneys who just don't see an alternative. They are at a law firm, they're making a great salary. They have a mortgage or they have kids in college and this just feels like, yeah yeah. And I think it's kind of hard to make space for a different possibility. And that's just a possibility that you are not aware of in this moment. But it doesn't mean that those possibilities don't exist.

Debbi Mack: [00:44:50] I think that's absolutely true. And I think if you want something badly enough, you can make it happen. It's just a matter of learning how to make it happen, and preparing for that. And I feel like right now I'm at the point in my life where I'm still learning all the different ways that I can make the things that I want to make happen.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:17] Yeah, although it's really weird for me to hear you say that, because when I look at you and all that you've accomplished. I feel like, wow, she checked off all the boxes and she's there. Wherever that there might be, but yeah.

Debbi Mack: [00:45:37] That's the thing, even the successful authors who are kind of famous, you'll always hear them say you're never quite there. Writing is a profession where you're always an apprentice. It's not just the writing process itself, there's also the unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know, it's easy to get yourself out there in the sense of, we have the Internet. We have blogs, we have social media. But knowing which thing to use and how to use it, these are all tools. Social media is a tool, you have to think of it that way. And how do you use it most wisely to get the most out of it, that's the trick. And like I say, I'm honestly still in the process of learning these things.

[00:46:29] I'm always in the process of trying to hone my skills at various different levels. I am teaching courses on Yudami now, and I'm actually uploading some of those courses to Teachable, if people do online courses and they're writing oriented. I'm thinking about adding some more courses on other life topics, because I have a condition called dystonia. It developed secondary to a stroke I had several years ago. I mean this was in the early 00's. It's more of an annoying condition than anything, it is constant and there's no cure for it. But the thing of it is, in or to deal with it you have to do things like exercise and make time for yourself.

[00:47:30] And so I'm thinking, there's a whole community of people out there who have chronic illnesses of various types. And I think there's a lot of advice I could give people on how to how to deal with that. Because I have had to deal with it out of necessity if I wanted to keep writing. I think if anything, this has really helped me to empathize more with people, and even just sympathize with them because some of them have the same problem I do. All I can say is, it's amazing what you can do even when you have a problem like this one. So I hope in that sense, I can serve as some sort of inspiration not only to lawyers, but to people who are struggling with chronic conditions.

Jeena Cho: [00:48:22] Yeah, and it almost sounds like you've sort of had to learn to treat yourself more kindly and say you know what, I'm tired, I need rest. And not feel like you should feel guilty for taking a nap because you're really tired.

Debbi Mack: [00:48:41] Exactly, right. It's kind of like learning to, there's a kind of a Buddhist concept to this sort of forgiving yourself and accepting, kind of all goes together.

Jeena Cho: [00:48:55] Yeah. And it sounds like it's a little bit of room just for you to digest and see what comes of it.

Debbi Mack: [00:49:04] Exactly right.

Jeena Cho: [00:49:06] Yeah. Debbi, it's just been so wonderful talking to you. One final question before I let you go. So the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Debbi Mack: [00:49:25] Being able to effectively balance your work with your life. And that sounds a bit trite, but when I say that I mean your work should fold in neatly with what you want to do in your life. The kind of work you do, is in a sense a byproduct of yourself. It's like, you do the things that you do because you care about them. And if you don't care about what it is you're doing, you should be doing something else. Don't be afraid to make a change.

[00:50:13] The way I see it, if you're going down the wrong road, you need to turn around at some point. And continuing down the wrong road will not take you to where you want to go. So it just doesn't make sense. It makes more sense to think about what you can do to change your situation to make it better and more in touch with your inner needs, your desires.

Jeena Cho: [00:50:46] And I think it takes courage to make space for that voice that's longing to be expressed in the world.

Debbi Mack: [00:50:56] Well thank you.

Jeena Cho: [00:51:00] Debbi, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you or your work, what are some places where they can find out?

Debbi Mack: [00:51:09] Well you can find me at my website, which is debbimack.com. And you can find a link there for The Crime Cafe podcast, it's right there on my website. You can also find my Twitter link, my Facebook link, and my Google Plus link. I'm pretty sure they're all on there.

[00:51:38] I'm also on YouTube. I do a lot of book reviews on YouTube I've become something of a "booktuber." I'll put in a plug for two writers whose books I just finished reading, who I absolutely love. Robert Crais and Terry Pratchett.

Jeena Cho: [00:52:03] Alright, so I will put all of those in the show notes. Debbi, thank you so much for joining me today. I certainly enjoyed our conversation.

Debbi Mack: [00:52:12] It was a pleasure. I'm very happy that you invited me on. Thank you so much.

Closing: [00:52:23] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Brodie Welch. Brodie is a licensed acupuncturist, a board-certified herbalist, Chinese medicine expert, and offers self-care strategies.

Topics Covered

• Restoring balance between our personal yin-yang and battling "yang addiction,"
  and concrete tools to breaking it and creating new, healthy habits.
• Utilizing different alternative self-care methods and practices to combat prevalent issues many people face like sleep issues/insomnia.
• Defining "time-blocking", maximizing our potential in the moment, and how multi-tasking is a myth.
• Her definition of meditation and mindfulness and how it can be a training ground for life.

Sources mentioned:

Asana Project Management: https://asana.com/
Basecamp Project Management: https://basecamp.com/

You can learn more about Brodie at:

Website: http://brodiewelch.com/
Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/a-healthy-curiosity/id1133292360?mt=2

Twitter: @brodiewelch

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Sponsor:

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Transcript

Jeena: Today's show is sponsored by Spotlight Branding. Spotlight Branding works exclusively with solo and small law firms to brand them as trusted, credible experts and help them stand out in a crowded marketplace. Their services include web design, social media, video marketing, and more.

Brodie: I've got all the time in the world, like you're going to be just as productive from an attitude of relaxation. You don't need the adrenaline to get stuff done.

Intro: Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena: My friends, welcome back to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. I am so happy to have Brodie Welch on the show. And this is going to be a slightly different episode than we normally have, because usually I have lawyers on the podcast. But Brady is a licensed acupuncturist, she is a board-certified herbalist, a Chinese medicine expert, and she also offers self-care strategies. And so she's going to share lots of different tips and tools for us to live healthier and more productive lives that are filled with self-care. So Brodie, welcome to the show.

Brodie: Thanks so much for having me, Jeena. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jeena: So I want to just jump right in and talk about actually getting more done. So as lawyers, we of course bill our time in six minute blocks and one of the things that I hear all the time from lawyers is how do I fit more in, how do I do more, how do I bill more hours? And I know one of your specialties or one of your expertise is actually teaching people how to get more done. So tell me, what's the secret behind getting more done?

Brodie: Well to share that secret with you I think it helps to have a little bit of a sense of where I'm coming from, in terms of Chinese medicine and it's theory. And what we have to learn from that yin-yang symbol that I'm sure everyone is familiar with, the black and white shapes that look like porpoises chasing each other inside that little circle. That is basically a symbol about what life looks like when it's in balance. And so, it's this balance of yin and yang energies. And so if the yang energy is the productive, the active, doing, the busy, the external, the speedy, that's represented by the white part of the yin-yang symbol. And the other part is the yin, it's that symbolized by the black part. And it has to do, you can't have black without white, you can't have inside without outside, you can't have up without down. In this world of duality, everything has its opposite, which is necessary for the other's existence. So in order to have productivity and speed and getting stuff done, you need to have good yin and the yin is of course the being, the stillness, the restful, the quiet, the inner. You, I'm sure have had the experience where you stay up all night doing something or like, you're burning the candle at both ends, and then you actually try to show up for the presentation, the meeting, the whatever it is that's really important, the trial, the negotiation and you're just not present because you're so exhausted. And so like, we know intuitively that we need to get good sleep in order to have a rockingly productive day the next day. But it's so much easier to prioritize the doing stuff and burning the candle at both ends because it's like, because it's hard for us to get that when we get hijacked by what I call your "yang addiction," which is a cultural decision and I myself I'm a recovering yang addict. It's like essentially, a paradox and that's something that Chinese medicine is really full of, it's a lot of paradox. That in order to have access to our sharpest minds, our most brilliant creativity, our most present selves, that's in the realm of yang. We need to be honoring our yin, which means taking care of our bodies, which means taking care of taking care of your spirit, your heart, your inner world. But even just in terms of productivity, let's just start with the body. Let's just start with the fact that like, even if we're incredibly driven, smart people, that we actually need to power that physically somehow, which means that automating the mundane, it means basically getting on autopilot, the core competencies of self-care that everybody needs in order to be not only healthy and prevent disease and to age optimally, but to really thrive in your career and your productivity.

Jeena: Yeah so if I can actually just break that down a little bit. When you talk about self-care, especially with lawyers I think there's a lot of misconceptions about, well that means I have to go to a spa and get a massage, and I don't have time for that. Or I have to get a manicure or pedicure; I have to go on vacation. When you talk about self-care, what does that mean, what is it and perhaps more importantly what self-care isn't?

Brodie: Yeah, that's a great question. There's those kinds of things, I love a good pedicure and a good massage. And you know, but those really I consider like the empty calories of self-care, like they can make you feel good in the moment but they're not really going to do a whole lot to change how you show up in the world. And the things that are going to change how you show up in the world are the things that you do every day, the things that you do yourself. So these kinds of things are like not sexy, they're not rocket science. It's like getting enough sleep, you know. You know like, or another thing is going to be having a meditation practice, making sure that you take a moment each day to fill up the well by tapping into the timeless and connecting with yourself and what matters most. So that you can streamline, so that you can be clear as to what actually doesn't need to happen that day, so that you can be clearer on what your priorities are. But basically it comes down to the simple first step is establishing a solid morning routine before you engage with the world, connect with yourself and a lot of times that that morning routine needs to start the night before, with going to bed a little bit earlier so that you have time to do that stuff. And you don't have to meditate for an hour; you don't even have to meditate for 20 minutes. But spending some time connecting with, uniting your breath, your mind, and your body can go a long way towards just helping you filter out the noise in your daily life and helping you stay connected to your priorities, instead of being jerked around by e-mails and by what other people need and want and really getting clear. I mean, when you're hijacked by other people's emergencies, like our bodies get hijacked into fight or flight mode which is what was once adaptive when we were running from predators on the savannah but not so useful when our emergencies are these things that don't require physical self-defense or fleeing from a predator. So it can be really rough on the body to go through life on adrenaline. And so it's really about breaking that cycle and getting into natural energy integrity so that you can move from a place of confidence and centeredness as opposed to frantic, scattered, you know and feeling like your life is always this time crunch where there's never enough space and there's never enough time. Because that jacks your nervous system, that's in Chinese medicine what we call "liver chi stagnation," and that's like our term for like the chi, the energy in the body, it needs to flow smoothly in order for us to feel relaxed and even-keel. And anytime we stress out, that basically our energy stagnates and that puts us into a very reactive place where (to go brain science) we're out of the prefrontal cortex, like we're out of our of our ability to stay calm and with equanimity and with empathy and with our full capacity as humans. Like we're more in our limbic system of just being in fear and it's not good for us, it's very expensive, it taxes the body you know. Every single system of the body is affected by stress, from immunity to our reproductive hormones to our ability to sleep to you know to really everything, like physical pain, inflammation. It's all, stress is a major driver for disease. For 80 to 90%, depending on whose statistics you're looking at, of all reasons that people see doctors and other health care practitioners if it's not the cause that amplifies. And so it's really, it's like it's easy to say like oh yeah, manage stress better. Well what does that look like, you know? And so, that's one of the reasons that I'm really passionate like, with acupuncture it's an amazing stress relief but it's kind of not enough to just get in and have somebody put you into this state of nervous system reboot and relaxation, like there really needs to be a way that you can practice that every day. Which is why I got into teaching qigong, teaching yoga and meditation. But really, much more about helping people bridge the gap between what they know they need to be doing and actually doing it.

And it's like, I think that what the missing piece is there is having support and accountability and doing it on a long enough time scale to really make a new habit stick. A lot of people make the mistake of biting off more than they can chew and deciding like, oh well I tried to meditate you know, I tried it for three days and I tried it for an hour at a time. And I tried it alone and I didn't have a space or a time for it. So you know it's like, good luck right, like that's not going to happen. So I got really interested in behavioral science and kind of like what does it take to, so in addition to studying Chinese medicine and mindfulness practices and some functional medicine and ayurvedic medicine and all the other tools that I use, being interested in like what actually helps new habits stick. And so that is something that, we can get into habitation if you feel like that would be useful or not...

Jeena: Absolutely, yeah. So I'm going to back up way back and actually talk about sleep, because sleep is one of the things that I feel like even though I'm almost 40 I still struggle with. Because I always just have really bad insomnia and then that leads to just making everything feel exponentially more difficult. I'm sure our listeners have had the experience of getting just a few hours of sleep, and then the next day everything just feels like a catastrophe. So what are some tools or practices that you can put into your life so that you can sleep better, and especially for folks that have sleep issues like I do, insomnia or not being able to stay asleep. What are some concrete practices or sleep hygiene practices that people can put into their life?

Brodie: Oh we can talk about this for hours. First of all, crazy amounts of empathy for you because I also struggle with sleep and I know how hard that is, that feeling of like knowing that the next day is going to suck. You know, because you're not able to asleep. So there's a few things that I can recommend, one is paying attention in the evenings. So like again with the yin and the yang, right the daytime, the light time of day, is when we're supposed to be active. And the dark time of day, or night, is when we're supposed to be restful. Now this doesn't mean that we have to be asleep, but really like after dark you know if we're stimulating, first of all telling our body that it's still day by staring at screens and their blue lights that literally disrupts our melatonin production, decreases it like crazy. That basically I recommend going screen-free as early as possible after dinner, like no screens after eight, no screens after seven, no screens after nine, whatever line you can draw. Put that line in the sand for yourself, you might notice that it helps you wind down to eat an earlier dinner, that can be huge because really digestion is this active metabolic process. And if your body's still doing that, you're not going to sleep great. Like ideally there's at least three hours between when you have dinner and when you go to bed. And so for a lot of people, it's like you know they're getting home you know, 9:00 at night they're having this big heavy dinner which is maybe most of the calories that day they're having a glass of wine, they're having you know something to help them wind down, and they're wondering why they're awake at 2:00 in the morning. You know and a lot of times like that can either, that's very much in the liver time in Chinese medicine. So like, insomnia is caused by different things and so I can't tell you what your particular insomnia is about. Like different things are going to be helpful for different folks, but if it's stress-related or if it's digestion-related, it's likely that you're going to wake up in that 2 to 3 a.m. time period which we associate with the liver. And so having that earlier dinner at least three hours before bed, planning to have a great night's sleep by getting up and doing your mindfulness practice, your qigong, your meditation, first thing in the morning is going to help you have a better night's sleep. Also, aligning with natural rhythms, like making sure you're getting outside in the morning to stimulate the pineal gland to hook you up with your natural circadian rhythms. And then if you're just, to pay attention to winding down in the evenings. So if you're exercising late at night you know, like you can't just immediately shut that off and expect that your body is going to go into relaxation mode. So really paying attention to just like, the timing of day and when you are doing particular activities. And so, in the evening, this is the time to do something gentle and something more yin, like read a book or you know, connect with your loved ones or you know call a friend or take a bath, actually taking an epsom salt bath can be fabulous for relaxation, the nervous system. It's one of my favorite hacks, if I know that like that it's already too late to do my wind-down routine, that I will make myself an epsom salt bath, I'll put in some essential oils like vetiver or cedar, that are very grounding and that promote relaxation just by how they smell and just, the messages that they bypass the rational mind and talk to the brain. But then the magnesium from the epsom salts just encourages this physiological letting go, and that can a lot of times be a wonderful ticket to get on the sleep train and to be able to stay asleep all night long.

And really it's a process, it's the kind of thing that like, that we are not machines and it can take a while to shift patterns. But really, like very few people who struggle with insomnia don't have issues that involve their nervous system and stress. And so really looking, and that could be coming from all sorts of places right? But typically lifestyle and pace. The other thing that I would encourage everyone that's just struggling with sleep issues to think about is that, where can you leave a little bit more space in your life? Like, because really that sense that illusion right, because time is an illusion, where are we buying into this idea that there's not enough time? You know like, if we can do the same amount of work, and I get a crazy amount done, I have way too many irons in the fire a lot. Like I said, I'm a recovering yang addict. But it's still a struggle for me to walk my talk around self-care. But it's important to me because I see where it leads. I've been in the healing arts for almost 20 years and I just see what happens when you try to take those shortcuts, it's like things break down and it's so much better to stay healthy than to break and then try to fix yourself. So it's the kind of thing where like, really paying attention to having a mantra that goes throughout your day in your head, where you're just reminding yourself that, I've got all the time in the world. Like you're going to be just as productive from an attitude of relaxation that you don't need the adrenaline to get stuff done.

Jeena: Yeah and I think that's such the paradox, is that we think if we just really try at it and sort of, effort our way through it that we'll be more successful, but in fact that's really the opposite. The more, sort of ease and common presence we can bring into each moment, the more efficiently we can actually get things done because we're not going into that fight or flight mode that we talked about just a little while ago.

Brodie: Yeah and there's really, that also requires a sense boundaries. Right, like that a lot of people, I do a lot of time batching like making sure that I've got, you know that I'm not checking e-mail every five minutes or that you know, the tasks that are all sort of similar happen at a particular time of day. But then, you know I've got I've got my Fitbit that reminds me to get up and move every few minutes or for the last 10 minutes of every hour, making sure that I'm getting enough steps. Because really, like you can't concentrate. Twenty five minutes is that sort of magic like, window of most people attention span and so, making sure that you're not just over-riding like again, this yang addiction, this belief that the mind has that it can do it all. And it's like actually, the body could really help you out if you just give it permission. You know, you need to fuel yourself; you need to eat good, quality food. If you're fueling up on sugar and caffeine, you know it's like, you know the quality of your thoughts is not going to be nearly as pure as if you are nourishing yourself with a more stable and wholesome fuel source. And it's like it really does, it's a feedback loop. And so really like, honoring the body and also honoring yourself by figuring out like, what is the most important thing that I need to do today? And then being ruthless about not letting other things get in the way; saying no to things that are extraneous, not letting what other people want get in the way of what you need to do in order to get the job done, as well as to have a life. Because you have the right to take care of yourself, you have the right to being even without doing. And that's something that in our society, it's really easy to forget that because we are in this culture that glorifies business; it's almost like the more exhausted we are the more bragging rights we have.

And it could be especially true for women, I see women especially running themselves into the ground because you know, because we're still doing most of the housework and kid work if we're partnered in a hetero relationship. And even if we're single, it's like just that we might be working harder in order to make the same amount of money that a man makes because we don't have that kind of justice right now. So it's the kind of thing where like yeah, that there is, it's really easy to feel like work is the only value. But like you know, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, like yeah. There is other tools in your toolbox that can help you do everything in life, and being able to kind of like, to mix my metaphors again, you can paint with more than just your favorite color, right. And that's one of the beautiful things I feel like about Chinese medicine is that, we think of ourselves in the constitutional types that correspond with the five elements, wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. And that each element type like, exploring what element you are can give you a sense of what your strengths and potential downfalls are, and that can help you kind of keep yourself in balance. So it's hard to shift to what you don't know is a problem, right? And so it's like, when you start to see...I would like everyone to understand yang addiction as a problem. That you know, it really is the kind of thing that like, if you're serious about wanting to feel different in the world, it requires a lifestyle change for the long haul. But once you dial that in, once you automate the mundane, once you bring the core competencies of self-care online, it will be a whole different way of living than what you're used to.

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Jeena: I think there's a sense, or at least I did, that I was almost waiting for someone else to tell me its okay for me to practice self-care. Like I was waiting for my boss to, "You know what Jeena? You've been working way too hard and I think you should take some time off." But I think I wanted some sort of validation or some sort of, because I felt like, well until someone tells me that it's okay to practice self-care it just means I am not doing enough in the world. It's almost like the self-care was this thing that I put on the very, very bottom of 186 other things that I had to do. And then it also meant that it never got done. So how do we start to like, shift that? How do we actually start to prioritize self-care? And as you said, sort of make it part of your mundane activity?

Brodie: Well you got to put it on your calendar, right. Like, you put everything else on your calendar that matters...

Jeena: So what does that look like on your calendar, like if I were to take a look at your calendar, what does it actually say?

Brodie: Well, the things that I've totally dialed in that I don't need to think about, like brushing my teeth is not on my calendar, right. You know, there's no way that's not happening. I get up, I brush my teeth, I scrape my tongue, I rinse my nose, you know like I do all these crazy Ayurvedic practices, you know. But then it's like, then I drink my water and I go meditate and it's just auto-pilot. Like there's not an option to do something else. And so, things like that that are just kind of like, what I do every day. Those are not on the calendar because I've already done 20 years’ worth of work to get them there, right.

Jeena: But like, in the beginning did you have meditation on your calendar?

Brodie: Absolutely, well like in the sense that I knew when it was going to happen. So I knew when and where it was going to happen and what followed and what it proceeded in my schedule. So literally wasn't on my calendar but its like, I don't get to have breakfast until I've meditated, you know. Like I don't get to leave the house unless...and again, like my practice could be modular, it could be one conscious breaths worth if you know, if I'm really running out the door and like my kid needs something and like you know, the cat throws up and you know like just life happens. So maybe I'm not going to get the 20 minutes that I want, but I like I absolutely, we all have time to take one conscious breath. We all have, you know? So it's just, so it's a matter of committing to it and making it absolutely non-negotiable, at first. Like just making that commitment. And, but yeah. And things like workouts, it's like those are absolutely on my calendar. I need to move in order to feel sane. And so, it's the kind of thing where like today where I'm doing a bunch of interviews, I've got a launch coming up for some courses, I've got a team to manage. You know that really, I did some time-blocking. I put that on my calendar so nobody else could schedule with me so that I could make sure that I got a hike in. You know and so, it's the kind of thing where like, that requires guarding your time and taking it as seriously as any commitment that I have to any of the other people that I'm talking to today.

Jeena: For the listeners that don't know about time-blocking, can you talk about what that is and what that actually looks like?

Brodie: Yeah. And I'm not an expert at time-blocking, but how I practice it is deciding that like, we know that every time we shift our attention that multitasking is a myth. and this is a teaching from qigong and from yoga, that when our intention, like when we're present in the present moment with one intention, with one focus, then we maximize our ability to be in the moment and to do whatever it is that we're doing. We're bringing our full presence to it. When we start splitting our attention and trying to do more than one thing, it's confusing and less efficient. And when we add like a third ball to the mix, it becomes just chaos. And so, it's the kind of thing where if you're checking, if you're constantly being interrupted, every time you lose focus and have to refocus, that takes minutes off of your ability to get things done. And so, it's really like putting things like email in bounds so that you're really only checking it a few times a day. Or you know, like once an hour for five minutes or like, just deciding whatever it is that you need in order to stay on top of your day. But keeping the boundaries around that or for example, like I am in clinic with patients a couple days a week and I am also developing now I do my coaching program and I do my podcast and things like that. The other days of the week, I'm not running back and forth from the office to podcast recordings. It’s like, I have days where I'm doing my coaching one-on-ones with people, and I have days when I'm in the office. And so it's just simple, it's like where can I cut out commuting, where can I have three hours in a row to really do some deep work with curriculum development, or with other writing projects or things that require more than just a few minutes here or there? Making sure that I've preserved that time on a calendar and that things that I need to do periodically are just, like having systems and things that happen automatically is something that I'm doing with my team right now, and making sure that that they are as trained and empowered as possible for the things that just happen every day. Where everybody's clear on whose job it is and you know, that's sort of like, if you're running a business you totally need that. But also just in your own life, just having the systems because we're not creatures of the willpower, we're creatures of habit.

Jeena: So one of the things that I personally struggle with all the time and I know that this is a very common complaint for lawyers is email, and I think this is something that we all struggle with. I think there's this sense of urgency, especially if it's a case and the client actually needs our attention. But I also see the truth of what you're saying, that it's much more efficient to check your email once an hour or twice a day. I mean ideally, that would be my preferred email schedule, is I check it first thing in the morning and I check it sometime in the afternoon and then I check it like, before I wrap things up in the evening but like, it's so hard to actually get myself into that habit of doing it. So if you're so used to that constant you know, I'm writing a brief and then all of a sudden I jump into my inbox because maybe I need some piece of information from my inbox to be able to finish the brief, and then of course then I get sucked into the email vortex. So how do we begin to actually disassemble and sort of you know, start to work with that habitual pattern of self-interruption?

Brodie: Well, do you have anybody else that can check your e-mail for you? Do you have a team?

Jeena: I probably could, but yeah, that also feels really scary to like, relinquish control of my inbox. And also there's just like, attorney client confidentiality issues and I don't know, I guess it's a possibility.

Brodie: Well we have that in medicine too you know, that we have confidentiality issues. And yet it's very possible for my office manager to make sure that the e-mails that I actually need to respond to, if somebody is having an issue with their health, that's very different than somebody who wants to schedule an interview with me, for example. So really, it's I had to stop doing her job. You know, like delegate and really get clear as to like, what are your $10,000 tasks that only you can do, right? Versus like, what are the $10 an hour tasks that somebody else could probably do for you? But also things like, having project management software that you can open instead of opening your e-mail. You open that and so you can just delegate things from there, or get clear on your own tasks before you get sucked into the world's priorities. And so just that, that's the kind of thing that I will look at first in the day and be able to remind myself of what my priorities are on a given day, and then get working on that. And then at some point, check email as a break, make sure that nothing is burning down, that nothing needs my attention. But otherwise it's you know, I'd say like delegate whenever possible, that kind of thing. And batched emails, like if you can take care of it in under five minutes go ahead and do it, but if it's going to take longer than that just than just put a little star, flag it to get back to it later, Do your brief.

Jeena: Yeah. What project management software do you recommend or use?

Brodie: Oh I use Asana personally, but there's also Basecamp, there's plenty out there. Or even just like something like Calendly, like a free calendar schedule can be super helpful in just automating, again like not having to go back and forth like, when's good for you to meet? Like just here, here's a link to my online calendar. So stuff like that, that are hacks on the time management side. But really, none of that matters as much as like making sure that I am living in accordance with what's really important to me. You know like, what do I really want to get done, what at the end of the day is going to give me a sense of satisfaction? And it's going to be some things on that list that are personal and some things that are professional but there shouldn't be more than three.

Jeena: I want to actually talk about meditation; it's a topic that's really big in my life. I feel like meditation has just been the single most profound practice that I've done and I can't imagine life without meditation. So let's begin by talking about what is meditation, when you talk about meditation, what does that look like, what does that mean?

Brodie: Well, there's so many different ways of meditating and so many different traditions so I'm wary of trying to put out an all-encompassing definition of what it is. But I think of meditation, and I would count (and I've studied many different kinds of meditation) as bringing your attention from the external world to the internal world, and stepping outside of the stream of thoughts to become the observer of the thoughts. And so that could be a kind of definition of mindfulness perhaps, is that awareness that you're not the sensations that arise in your body, that you're not the content of what flows through your brain, and that you're not your personality. You get, you step back and you realize that you've got this thing called consciousness or the witness, the wise observer, who can look at all this stuff and go wow, yeah. And so meditation basically like allows us to not react to the things in our bodies in a habitual way and to not react to the things in our minds in a habitual way. We can create space between the things that trigger us and how we choose to respond to that. And so meditation I see as a training ground for life and from a Chinese medicine tradition, so there's like in the yoga tradition there's all sorts of paths of meditation that involve like, sort of transcending the body. And one of the things that I really appreciate about qigong is that first of all, a lot of people feel like they can't meditate sitting still and qigong combines breath and movement and intention with light. So it's basically like, you can close your eyes, you can see these flowing movements that are designed to have particular medicinal purposes in the body or particular sort of mental, emotional, spiritual purposes in the body. And it's a way of just sinking in, like just basically being able to shut off your mind and just tune in to your breath and your body. And that creates a kind of unity that, it yokes the mind like yoga where it is union or yoke, where you're yoking the minds of the body together, you're creating this unity so that creates and amplifies your ability to focus and concentrate and that in turn gives you a kind of power over your life, because you are able to not be jerked around by your mind, gives you a sense of mastery and equanimity. And there's all sorts of interesting studies about how yoga, meditation, qigong, mindfulness, all of these things can increase, it can decrease pain, like there's all sorts of interesting stuff about the body-mind connection that we wouldn't necessarily think about. But really, a lot of people feel like meditation is like where you close your eyes and your mind goes to this peaceful, blissful place. And I can tell you like, I don't know anybody for whom that is their experience of meditating. Like just like you don't expect your heart to stop beating, you don't expect your mind to stop thinking. It's just gonna think, but it's a practice of being able to refocus on whatever it is, whether it's your breath or whether it's a mantra or whether it's a sound or a chant or an object of love or a person that you love or you know, like whatever it is that you're choosing to bring your attention back to, it is that process of catching the wandering away and bringing it back. And that's really where I feel like the practice begins.

Jeena: Yeah and I think that that's so key, and I find especially for lawyers who tend to be very perfectionistic they think, oh my gosh I'm thinking therefore I'm not doing this correctly and because I'm not doing it correctly it's not worth doing.

Brodie: Right. I suck at it, I'll never get it. Therefore I'm not going to do it, like it's not for me because I'm special because my mind is busy it's like, guess what, it's what minds do! So yeah like, I love the analogy of like training the puppy. It's just what the puppy does, it wanders off, it smells stuff and it's your job as walking the dog to just keep walking and gently to coerce it back to like okay no this is what we're doing now, okay we're not problem-solving right now. Okay we're breathing right now; this is all we're doing. And it takes discipline, so I feel like for someone that's interested in starting a meditation practice, I recommend getting acquainted with the breath. On my website I have a free breathing meditation, I have a free world's simplest qigong. If you want to do kind of a standing practice, moving your arms and breathing, that can be incredibly calming and centering. But I recommend getting a timer and just deciding that you're going to engage in this practice until your timer goes off. And start with one minute, start with five minutes, start with something small and doable. Because when you do that, then you can build on your success. And you know that you're not going to be there forever. And to not judge it as successful or failure, because you're just training. You know like, you don't go to the gym and expect yourself to pick up the 100 pound barbell your first day. You know, it's like you start with a lighter weight and you build up until something feels doable. And really, in terms of the research that's being done, in just 20 minutes a day for eight weeks you can increase the neurodensity in your prefrontal cortex and decrease the amygdala. Like that's really doable, right. That's two months.

Jeena: Yeah yeah. And I think that point you bring up about starting small and allowing those very small, intentional acts to build over time is so key. I think there's that tendency like, oh my gosh I wanted all the benefits yesterday so I'm just going to double down and start doing four hours a day, and it doesn't work that way.

Brodie: And it may be great to start with like a meditation retreat or something like that, that can certainly be something that's useful in jump-starting a new habit. But yes, I definitely am a firm believer that it's the small changes over time that are the ones that stick. And so, because it really, it's like going from somebody who starts their day you know, flying out the door with a cup of coffee and grabbing a bagel you know, like is really different than someone that starts their day with five minutes of conscious breathing and then, you know it just sets you up to have a totally different life experience. And so it does, it does change who you are and how you show up in the world.

Jeena: So I think maybe as we get ready to wrap things up, you were talking about this yang addiction that we all tend to have, where we try to do too much and try to do it as quickly as possible and we're not really fully present to the activities that we're engaged in. You know, some concrete tools or suggestions or practices that our listeners can do to start to unlearn those habits and create other healthier habits for breaking the yang addiction.

Brodie: Well, I've talked a lot about priorities, right. And so, really consider for yourself like, what am I willing to let go of, right? Like what could I really let slide? How many things that need my attention can I really pay attention to and expect them all to thrive, right? Like there's the analogy of the plants in your garden, right. Like sometimes you need to prune for there to be enough water to go around. And so, paying attention to like what is most important today and asking yourself like, just really getting clear in your priorities, like what might you need to stop doing.

Jeena: Yeah, right. That's so important to actually think about what we can let go of, so we can actually do those really important things better. It's not about trying to pile on more stuff and just try to cram more activities into our 1,440 minutes a day because that's all we get.

Brodie: Yeah exactly. And it's really easy to add stuff, especially for people who are super capable and get a lot done. It’s like, "Oh yeah sure, I'll do that. I'll do that." Yeah, like so like I'll give you an example. Like just last week, my husband invited me to go to a concert up in Portland with him. And it was an artist that I was, I was interested in the music, I thought it would be fun, but I also, it's the change of the seasons, it's a time where we can be vulnerable to getting sick. I have been really like doing a lot and the concert was on a Monday night and I had patients scheduled for Tuesday. And so I had to make the call that like you know, like I want to do this but I'm not going to; I'm going to kind of like engage my inner-parent and just decide like, "Sweetie, like that's really too much." Like it might be fun but it's not as fun as how you're going to feel the next day. And it's probably going to set you up for getting sick because we've got a kid that just went back to school which is like you know, germ factory, and you know it was more important for me to conserve my energy for what was really important, which was my work you know, and my health.

And so it's just one of those things where it's like, I wouldn't have been able to make that choice if I wasn't clear on what matters most to me, in the next day, in the next few weeks, in the next few months of life. Like, what area of life needs the most attention right now for you, is it health, is it career, is it relationships, is it family? Is it spirituality? Where am I leaking energy, right? Like what am I spending too much time on, is there one friend who constantly drains you? Are you staying up or are you blowing past bedtime watching Netflix? It's like that, and really figuring out like how can I put a boundary around that? So the example with using my a little Fitbit timer for example, like I have that to go off so that it reminds me okay, this is when you really need to start winding down. This is where you get to read fiction; this is where you get to do your two minutes of foot massage before you go to bed. Those kinds of things that I might not do if I was just kind of caught up in the moment and so I would recommend those those contemplative practices, like what matters most, either today, this week these next few months? What area of life needs the most attention? Where am I leaking vital energy, and what do I need to stop doing in order to have more time for the things that matter?

Jeena: Yeah you know, as I'm listening to you what I'm really noticing is the energy or the feeling tone behind all the things that you're saying and how you're saying it. And what I notice is the sense of joy and delight. And I think that's something that we often sort of miss as we go about our day and we just do and do and do and try to do more, is that we're not on this planet just get more shit done. And actually just to tap into that like, sense of delight is really what I'm sort of noticing from the way you're describing all of these activities. I mean like, 15 minutes to massage your feet before you go to bed, like that sounds delightful to me!

Brodie: Well yeah, and it's easy, and it's free. And really, it can feel totally self-indulgent, right? And yet, it's like yeah, we're here to enjoy our lives. And nobody looks back at their life and goes, "I wish I'd gone to work more."

And I freaking love what I do. You know and I do tend to do it too much and it is a creative hobby and a passion, but it's like, wow you know, we also have bodies, we have hearts, we have souls, we have relationships, and there's so much to experience that we're allowed to. And so yeah, like I'm actually, I've got a "you have the right to take care of yourself" manifesto if that would be useful for anybody to print out and put on their fridge. You can get that and it's, yeah I hereby give you all permission to take care of yourselves. Not that you need it, but a lot of times that's what I'm writing on a prescription pad for my patients and saying like, find that half hour a day to yourself. And really consider it, like what's going to make the most difference in your life right now? Is it about...oh the other thing that you can batch task is making healthy food. You know, like set aside a half an hour on Sunday or an hour on Sunday and a half hour on Wednesday to like, make a soup that's going to sustain you for the next three days or to chop some veggies so that you can get home from work and make the healthy thing, the easy thing. You know like, for some people it's going to be exercise, for some people it's going to be food choices, for some people it's going to be meditation, for some people it's going to be getting enough sleep. But really it's about like, identify what's going to have the most traction in helping me like, have feel the way I want to feel. Who is the person you're becoming next, and what how does she feel on a day to day life? And what kind of habits does she have? And it's like, those kinds of identity evolution questions are the things that I am intensely interested in and that I help people really bridge that gap between like, the person that they know they want to be, that doesn't really get any attention because they're so caught up in the daily grind and it's like, habit change is the hardest thing in the world. It is something that, willpower to change a habit like before something is automated, you have to do it with the strength of will. And the willpower wears out with stress. It's renewed every day by sleep, which is why it's really important to do the hard thing first. First thing in the morning and get that out of the way. But having support, like telling people in your life, who in your life can support you in making these changes? And if you don't have anybody in your life who is willing to hold you accountable and give you that support, then consider getting some help. Because even if you just change your trajectory a few degrees and multiply that over time, the compound interest of that, the compound effect of habits, you'll wind up in a very different place than you would be otherwise.

Jeena: I love that, yeah. That's so meaningful, and I think if we can all just start small and just pick one little activity. I think there is this sort of like, natural magnet that gets created where you pick up one healthy activity and then that tends to attract other healthy behaviors. And the opposite is also true right, we start to develop these unhealthy behaviors and then it kind of gets us in this spiral of finding other unhealthy behaviors that's not helpful.

Brodie: Totally, you're speaking to this notion of a keystone habit, which is like that there tends to be one habit that's most significant in your life that supports all the other good things. So for example, for me sleep is the keystone. And so like when I'm not getting enough sleep, like if I have a crappy night's sleep, I'm going to be more tempted to drink coffee and eat sugar, right. And I'm going to be less tempted, I'm going to be more exhausted at the end of my day, I'm going to be more likely to blow off my workout you know. So like, one thing leads to three things going wrong, right. And similarly, I think meditation is also kind of a keystone in that it gives us the separation from our life to understand, oh right, I actually could do this differently. It creates that space to make a different choice. And it's like building that muscle of our ability to choose differently instead of just react. So that's another reason that I'm a huge fan of having a mindfulness practice and can't like you, imagine life without it. Because it really is, it's the master habit un-locker.

Jeena: Yes, absolutely. So Brodie, I know that you also host your own podcast called A Healthy Curiosity. Tell us a little bit about your podcast.

Brodie: Yeah, have the podcast is a blast. I talk to natural healing experts to basically connect people who care about their health and are curious as to what might be out there to help them with the experts who know stuff. But also I feature people who have learned something along the way in terms of how to live a joyful, conscious, healthy life and have conversations with them. And so it's really a way where, I got into it because I wanted to democratize the information that I have. Because, the root word of doctor, docere, is "to teach." And as a Chinese medicine practitioner, we're doctors in some states, not others. But anyway, like I take my role as teacher, as an educator, teaching people how to take care of themselves, really seriously. Because so often like there's like, of all the people that come in with just a whole spectrum of different complaints and diseases, a lot of times I end up saying the same self-care advice to all of them, right. You know, it really does come back to the stuff that we've been talking about today, because you can't really outsource your health. And so really, it's also a place for people to get reminded that, hey like the things that we totally discount that are free and easy, like breathing and self-massage and sleeping and like eating foods for major, like that these are the things that actually work and that you can start anywhere; you can get younger as well as older. You can reverse chronic diseases all the time. We can switch on and off our DNA all the time by the choices that we make. And so my podcast is my ability to reach more people with the stuff that I know and allow me to get my message out as a teacher.

Jeena: Great. And for folks that want to either learn more about your podcast or your work, where is the best place for them to find out that information?

Brodie: Brodiewelch.com, that's Brodie with an "IE" and Welch with a "CH."

Jeena: Thank you so much for joining me on The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Brodie: It's been a blast Jeena, thanks so much for having me.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I interviewed Andie Kramer. Partner with McDermott Will and Emery and author of "Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work,"  Andie talks about how to combat biases and stereotypes that can hold women back in the workplace.

Topics covered:

• The issues and challenges of women in the workplace
• The importance of impression management and self monitoring
• Suggestions for handling interruptions in the workplace
• The concept of idea theft and how to circumvent it

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer Podcast, brought to you by Start Here HQ -- a consulting company that works with lawyers to create a purpose driven and sustainable legal career.
In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life.

Now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena: On today’s show I have Andie Kramer. She is a partner with McDermott, Will & Emery. Andie, welcome to the show.

Andie: Thank you very much. I’m very glad to be here.

Jeena: Andie, could we start by having you introduce yourself?

Andie: Well, I am happy to introduce myself.

I am the author of the new book, Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work which I wrote with my husband. We have been focusing on and worried about how women can succeed at work for quite some time now. This is basically been the culmination of many years of research, and speaking, and trying to see if we can change the dynamic of women at work.

Jeena: How did you and your husband become interested in this topic?

Andie: Well, I’ve been interested in it for most of my career with more than 30 years in the trenches as a lawyer. Certainly seen the thought originally that if you put your head down and you just do a good job then, miraculously, everything is going to be fairly reflected. What I learned was that’s just not the case.

One of the key things that holds women back in the workplaces, the stereotypes and biases that people have about women and men and leaders. These stereotypes and the biases that flow from them hold women back because women are either too kind, too sweet, too nice, too soft -- which we would refer to as being too communal -- or to assert as aggressive, ambitious which is too agentic which is the word that the social scientist use to describe characteristics that are predominantly attributed to man.

And so what we have is a goldilocks dilemma where women are too sweet, too nice, too kind, or perceived as too tough, too hard. Women have this narrow tight rope that men don’t have in advancing in their careers.

Jeena: In your book you talk about the importance of impression management. Can you talk about that?

Andie: One of the things that is almost second nature to men that women tend to have more of a problem with is what is referred to as Impression Management and whether you want to call it emotional intelligence or political savvy, there’s all sorts of different pieces of this elephant of impression management.

But one of the things is that if we want to be certain that somebody is actually hearing us so that we’re communicating and effectively being heard, we need to both understand ourselves meaning what do we want to accomplish in this conversation? It could be a written and oral or a non-verbal one, frankly. And so what we need to do is we need to be able to understand how the other person is hearing us.

If they’re not reacting the way that we want to then we dig into our characteristics of ourselves and we can modify slightly the way that we’re communicating what it is that we have to say.

Impression management is really something that men grow up doing since they’re 5, 6 years old when they want to get on the tee-ball team with the captain who they don’t like and, girls, we don’t really tend to be socialized that way. Impression management is something that we need to think about as women and understand that it is an effective tool that we can use in our careers.

Jeena: In your book you talk a lot about self-monitoring. What is self-monitoring and how is that related to impression management?

Andie: Well, I think that that’s the way that we are able to understand what it is that we want and how we’re communicating.

For example, when you wake up in the morning and you go to your closet and you’re going to figure out what you’re going to wear today, if you’re going to a formal business meeting, you’re going to dress very differently than you would if you were going to the beach, or if you were going to a casual event, you would dress differently from the way that you go to a formal.

Self-monitoring and impression management are really pieces of the same thing which is that what we need to do is we need to understand sort of the context of the environment that we’re in. And by understanding that context, we’re going to be able to communicate in the most effective ways using our own capacities, our own skills, our own characteristics and traits. It’s a way of understanding ourselves basically.

Jeena: You talk about the difference between the different communications now as agentic and communal. To me it sounded like what you are suggesting in the book is to try to figure out when to sort of reach into toolbox and which tool to pull out. Sometimes it’s more appropriate to use more a communal communication style and more… Sometimes it may be appropriate to use a more agentic communication.

So for women who may not necessarily be exposed or are not used to using more of an agentic communication style, how do you go about learning it? Is it your practice or… You may sort of, intuitively, know that you have to use a more assertive style of communication in certain circumstances but that may not be intuitive for a lot of women.

Andie: Well, that’s really why we decided to write our book because what we found was that we all have these characteristics, every one of us -- male and female -- are going to have communal characteristics and are going to have agentic characteristics. It’s just figuring out when one style or the other is going to be more effective that we need to do.

You raised a very important point which is you said that most women are going to behave in a communal way because we’re socialized to do that. But the way that leaders advance is by being more agentic.

Women who succeed very often are going to have adapted or have already grown up with a more agentic style. What they have to do is sometimes they have to reign it in a little because people could misunderstand or because of their stereotypes and the biases that they have may find us unpleasant or unlikeable. Some women need to dial it up and some women like to dial it down. Some days it may be a dial up for one type of style or a dial down for the other.

What we’ve done in our book is we’ve provided some real life situations and make suggestions and takeaways about ways you could practice; things that you can do to appear more trustworthy, or sincere, or confident.

Women have, again, unlike men, women, we have to balance being nice so people like us so that we’re not too far on the too agentic side. But we also need to be certain that if we’re really nice and sweet that we’re not then taken advantage of and believed to be nice and okay to have around but not somebody that we’re going to want to have on important projects. So that’s the goldilocks problem that we try to deal with.

Jeena: And you mentioned some of these tools that are important for increasing sort of self-monitoring and self-knowledge. There’s three that you talk about: grit, humor, and mind priming. Maybe we can start with grit. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Andie: Absolutely.

These are all concepts that have become very popular in recent years. In fact, there are some fabulous books out about grit and positive mindset and mind priming.

What it is I would also add one more to that though. I would also add having a coping sense of humor because grit is really when we are prepared to go at it, to make it work. If we hit the ground, we stand up, dust ourself off and we keep going. Grit is, in fact, something that there are workshops and tool kits to try to help men and women develop grittier ways of dealing with the world.

The positive mindset, or growth mindset, is also very important because what we have there is that if we keep hitting the floor and dusting ourselves off, we may not be able to advance unless we also have the capacity to step back and say “What am I doing wrong? What can I do differently? How can I grow from this?”

And so people who have growth mindsets, positive mindsets, are very likely to keep trying to try new things, to approach new problems, to raise their hand. And people who have fixed mindsets and who don’t have positive mindsets are more likely to be afraid of failing and so they’re less willing to take a chance. And so when we put grit and positive mindset together, what we’ve got is we’ve got attitudes that can really help us advance.

If we then factor in mind priming, which is very interesting, because what happens is that there’s been recent studies would show that if we think about and write about sometime when we felt like we were rock stars, when we had a great day, when we were really happy, it turns out then, in other settings, interacting with other people, we can actually come across as being the leader. It gives us a way of sort of… whether it’s placebo effect or not, I wouldn’t know but what I do know is that it definitely works.

We layer that on top of this and then the last piece, having a coping sense of humor, is that when… It’s not going our way, when we’re dealing with people who are small-minded or whatever, that we can either not become a standup comic but we can either laugh at the situation or get a wry sense of, well, this person really doesn’t understand where the world’s at. That helps us be stronger and move forward in adverse situations.

Jeena: Are there deliberate practices that you can engage in to increase your grit or, I guess, to become more grittier?

Andie: There are. There are.

One of the things that I would suggest is that we start thinking about and approaching the world in a way that allows us to give ourselves permission to fail basically. Allow ourselves, give ourselves permission to take constructive criticism.

There’s grit tests that you can take online. We have links to that in our book, like takeaways for the attitude chapter. We can think about how we could stick with it for purposes of a growth mindset. There’s also a mindset test that we can take. The ABA has a grit project and training tools for developing grit.

Basically, there are techniques that can be done and the one important thing about all four of these is that it’s not what you’re born with, it’s all trainable. We can all learn and expand our grit and our positive mindsets and our coping sense of humor. It’s not “Well, I don’t have it and so I’ll never get it.” It’s something that we can actually learn and grow with.

Jeena: Yeah, and I think it’s important to know that all of these practices that you’re talking about, increasing self-knowledge, you’re just becoming more aware; are all practices that we can actually practice.

I think that’s really the interesting thing about a lot of the research coming out of social psychology now is even things like happiness which researchers, for a very long time, thought was sort of fixed, we’re finding that it isn’t and you can actually engage and deliver practices like keeping a gratitude journal and actually boost that sense of happiness.

Andie: Absolutely, and smiling. Just smiling helps.

Jeena: Just smiling, yeah. Yeah.

Andie: It does help even if you don’t feel like it. Miraculously, all of a sudden, you’ll feel like it.

Jeena: I’m just reading a study that was published fairly recently in the last couple of months and they looked at all the Supreme Court hearings for the last couple of decades. Not surprisingly, the researchers found that the women justices were interrupted, I think, it was like two-and-a-half times the rate that the male justices were interrupted and I thought “Oh my goodness!” Even at the Supreme Court level this happens. Interruption is one of the topics that you talk fairly at length about in your book.

For women lawyers out there, what are your suggestions for handling interruptions?

Andie: Well, you’ve pointed to a very important issue, a problem that women face, because we’re perceived to be less valuable, again, by virtue of the stereotypes that somehow we’re going to be communal and nice and helpful but not the one who’s going to make a decision.

We’re very often passed over whether it’s in a meeting or in a conversation so that men will interrupt women. The statistics are something like seven times more frequently than they interrupt men as a general rule. So the Supreme Court justices are lucky if it’s only two-and-a-half times more that they get interrupted. What happens is they don’t even know that they’re interrupting us. They don’t even hear us.

On our website we have a blog about with interruption tip sheet as to how you can avoid interruptions. But, for example, you’re in a meeting and no one seems to be paying attention to you -- common situation complaint for women. One technique is to stand up. Go get a glass of water, get a cup of coffee, and then start talking. When you walk back to your chair you don’t sit down. It’s much harder for people to interrupt you if you’re standing and they’re sitting. That’s one technique.

Another technique is men can very easily say “I’m not finished yet” in a very harsh voice and people back off. If a woman does that then their hair catch fire and they don’t have a clue what to do. So women need to be able to do that in a more -- even if it’s offensive, in a more pleasant sort of “Fred, I’m not quite finish yet. You can have the floor when I’m done.”

But one thing is that there’s studies that say that senior men in board meetings -- and this is out of the UK -- that they complain that women let people interrupt them and that the women are much more willing to not defend their positions. That’s something that we, as women, need to think about is when we have something to say, we need to kind of screw up our courage so that we will, in fact, say it and make sure that we’re heard.

Jeena: Yeah. I think when we’re in conversation with other women, we sort of naturally interrupt. But the interruption isn’t to change the subject or to disagree with you. It’s almost like, “Oh, I’m affirming what you’re saying. It’s just how we sort of relate to one another.” I find that that actually has a very different tone when you’re in a mixed gender sort of an office type of environment when a manager of this because he’s just done with whatever it is you’re saying and he wants to change the topic and want to sort of move on to something different.

Do you have tips for saying it in a way that is it the tone? Is it the body language? This is almost silly to say but he doesn’t feel like his ego is bruised by you saying “Hey Fred, you’re interrupting me. I’m not finished.”

Andie: Well, you’ve touched on a few different points that are all very important in the context of interruptions because what happens is there’s basically two -- there’s many but you could divide interruptions into two buckets. One is the “I’m agreeing with you.” “Yeah, you’re right. Keep talking,” kind of interruption. Women tend to do that a lot more than men do. But the other type of interruption is to try to grab the floor from you.

So you have to be understanding which type of interruption it is. And if it is trying to grab the floor from you, then you have to hold your ground. You may need to say, at some point, “Fred, that’s enough. I’m not finished.” Sometimes what women can do is they can talk louder, they can talk faster.

If you don’t look at the person who’s trying to interrupt you, it turns out that it’s much harder for him to actually be successful with it. Depending on how senior he is can determine how you respond to him.

If he’s your boss, you should be always sticking to the “Fred, let me just finish” as oppose to “Fred, I’m not done yet.” Tone and whatnot plays a key part in it. But just talking faster or louder is not going to be enough. You have to confront the person if they’re persistent in trying to take the floor away from you.

Jeena: It’s a difficult thing to do. I think we should just acknowledge that saying to someone “Hey, you’re interrupting me. Can you not do that?” or in some variations, right? It’s kind of hard. Do you have suggestions on practicing it or kind of becoming more skilled at it because I think this is definitely a learned art.

Andie: It is and there are ways to do it.

If you feel uncomfortable holding your ground and you know that then what you could do is you could ask a friend to have a conversation with you where they intentionally try to take the floor from you. You could practice a speech or a presentation that you have in mind, something that you could then try to make a point. It’s not that hard to get a rhythm going if your understanding what it is your objective is. The objective is to be heard. Your objective is to be making a point or your objective is to be certain that if you’re making a contribution you get credit for it.

It’s very important if you remember that, and that goes back to the self-monitoring and the impression management part of everything. That’s really why we started our book there which is that you have to understand what your objective is. If your objective is to hold the floor, then you need to be certain that you hold it. If your objective is to make sure that Fred’s feelings aren’t hurt then you may be approaching the response in a very different way.

Jeena: I also love the suggestion in your book about sort of standing up for other women when she’s interrupted and say “Let her finish.” I thought that was such a great advice that we, as women, can support one another just by saying “Hey, let her finish.”

Andie: Exactly. It turns out… We refer to that as sort of men will very often pile on. So when a man says something great, that will pile on. But when a woman says something great, it’s as if nobody hears her. Then 5 minutes later when Fred says the same thing that all of a sudden they get out the golden chariot and they start carrying Fred around for coming up with this great idea.

The other side of that same issue is that when a woman gets interrupted, it’s very hard if she’s the only woman or one of the few women in the room. It’s very hard for her to really keep the floor and that it pushes her into that uncomfortable zone.

It’s not hard for somebody else to say “Oh, wait a minute. You’re saying something really interesting. Let her finish. She’s not finished” or “I thought that Jessica said that a few minutes ago” or “Gina said that a few minutes ago. Why don’t we go back and hear what she has to say?”

A really good leader of a meeting would be doing that for the whole group but, unfortunately, there are very few leaders that pay attention and have that much focus as to who actually made the statement first.

Women, we can help each other. Other men can help us. We could go into a meeting where we say to a friend of ours, “Listen, I’ll watch your back if you watch mine. Keep an eye out and we can help each other.” Overtime, miraculously, if it’s pointed out even just once or twice, the people in the room get it because they’re not trying to be pigs. They just don’t understand what it is that’s going on. They don’t understand that they’re buying into their own biases.

Jeena: Right. I think it’s also hard to kind of empathize and know what it’s like to constantly be interrupted, to have your ideas stolen from you. Yeah, I think these are sort of really great tools.

I think you’ve sort of alluded to the idea of idea theft. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Andie: Well, that happens, unfortunately, on a regular basis in many of the workshops and speeches that my husband and I will do about women in communication.

If we ask the question, have you ever been in a meeting where you said something brilliant and nobody pays any attention and then 5 minutes later Fred says the same thing and he’s carried around in that golden chariot? Almost every woman in the room is going to raise her hand. The men in the room look at the women like they’re crazy. They have absolutely no sense of it.

If you say something and your idea is stolen, you have to think first “Did I communicate it in a powerful way? Or did I possibly say what I had to say with ‘Oh, this may be a dumb idea but…’ or ‘I’m not an expert on this but…’” because women, very often… because we don’t want to be perceived as too agentic, we’ll dial it down to the point where we’re pouring cold water on our own ideas.

So the first thing we need to do is say “Did I articulate this and communicate it in the most powerful way that I could?” If the answer to that is no then we know that next time we’re going to practice and try harder. But if the answer to that is yes then we need to be certain that we own our own ideas. So we have to then say “Fred, that’s a very good recitation or repeat of what I said a few minutes ago.” Of course, you do it with a smile on your face not a wagging finger in Fred’s face. You can bring the conversation back to make it clear that you thought and made this comment first.

Unfortunately, women, we don’t do it as much as we should and we walk out of those meetings angry. The last thing we want to do is walk out of the meeting angry because then we’re going to be just stewing about it and stewing about it and it’s going to affect our all well-being as well as our standing in our organization.

Jeena: Yeah, so true.

Talk about self-promotion. How do women and men promote differently and what are some ground rules or advice for doing self-promotion for women?

Andie: Well, one of the problems that women have is that one of the big stereotypes about us is that we’re supposed to be modest. If we’re modest then how could we possibly be self-promoting?

You had asked at the beginning of our conversation, how did we get involved in this topic in the first place. For me where one of the sort of aha moments was when I was on my law firm’s compensation committee, I started to read the self-evaluations of my colleagues and the self-evaluations of the women were all about “I was on the X, Y, Z team and I enlist the 20 teammates. We did a fabulous result for the client. We want to applaud the following 12 people.”

A man who was working on that same project is not talking about the team or we, he’s talking about how he single-handedly scaled the Empire State Building and rescued damsels in distress on the way down. What I started to do was I put together a self-evaluation do’s and don’ts to try to help our women be certain that they were approaching their self-evaluations the same way that the men do.

It was an eye opener both for me to see that but also for the women to know that they had permission, if you will, to talk about themselves in that way. Not being too in-your-face that it triggers the goldilocks dilemma but you have to be certain to understand that if it’s a self-evaluation, you need to be talking about yourself. If you’re asked to talk about your team then you talk about your team.

If it’s a promotion conversation, what happens is men can go into a promotion discussion and say “I deserve it. It’s my turn.” Women cannot do that. Instead, what we need to do is we have to build the case for why promoting us is in the best interest of our organization.

So it’s not fair that we have to be balancing on this tight rope. It’s not fair that we have to do this but in today’s gender bias workplaces, this is a way that we can assure that we’re going to be treated fairly.

Jeena: That kind of brings me to another question about, you know, all the topics that we discuss so far really kind of giving advice to women about how they can shape their behavior so that they’re heard, that they’re compensated fairly, so on and so forth.

As an organization, especially like a law firm for example, how do we start to have this conversation and actually involve the men so that they become more sensitize? I mean are these type of trainings on gender bias effective? Are there sort of programs out there that you’ve seen? Because to me it seems like we can’t just tell the women “It’s up to you to fix this,” right? We really need both genders involved.

Andie: Absolutely. This is a problem that you have to fix for yourself.

By talking about what women can do that is not, in any way, intended to let men and organizations off the hook. So it’s a perfect point to say that men, first of all, need to understand how the stereotypes and biases work. They have to really should read our book as well because we wrote it addressed to women but Al’s participation and his objective really was to be sure that men were thinking about and focusing on the problems and why it is so much harder for women to get ahead than it is for men.

Men can be fabulous allies for women but they don’t see it and they need to understand why it is that women have these problems. We believe that it’s because of the stereotypes that hold women back.

Organizations need to make certain that their policies and procedures are fair and that their policies and procedures do not feed into these stereotypes and biases.

One of the things that we’ve done at my law firm, for example, is we’ve tried to move away from the subjective sorts of senior evaluations so that reviews of younger lawyers don’t have open-ended questions that would allow somebody to say “She doesn’t really fit in” or “She just doesn’t have what it takes.” It’s all based on core competencies and this is where law firms are moving to now.

So that it’s harder for somebody to criticize somebody because they don’t like them, because they’re too nice, or because they’re too aggressive. They’re too communal or too agentic. It forces them to evaluate the work product. That’s only one way but, also, holding people responsible for their evaluations.

There’s a lot of work about how we all react quickly and when we react quickly, it ends up this… The gut reaction, very often, is based on stereotypes and the biases that we have since we grow up with those since we’re 3, 4 years old. We’ve adopted stereotypes about women and men, about young and old people, and about people whose skin color is different from ours. What we’re doing is we have habits that are hard to break and that’s what this is all about.

What an organization can do is it can make certain that it doesn’t allow one person to evaluate who should be brought into the firm or the company for recruitment, for compensation, for promotion. That those processes need to have more objective standards imposed.

What happens is, miraculously, when people think slower or when they know somebody else is evaluating what the decision that they’re going to make, they tend to be much more fair and more gender neutral, more racially ethnically more neutral. And so for women today, what can we do to help ourselves? That’s really why we started with and focus on what women can do. But men and organizations need to get on the program and need to do their fair share. So don’t think I’m giving them a free pass because I’m not.

Jeena: There’s just a lot of things that you talked about -- starting to recognize your own stereotypes and implicit bias and kind of adding that pause between the stimulus. So you see someone that looks different from you, we have those sort of automatic responses. .

I think one of the more interesting research testings coming up recently is about how mindfulness just being more present to what’s happening in the moment and really kind of allows people to see their own implicit bias and that, actually going through mindfulness programs has been shown to reduce the implicit bias and that sort of like automatic reaction. I think it’s important to kind of say like we all have implicit bias and just because you have them doesn’t make you sort of a bad person.

Like I have these conversations all the time where I start to talk about all of these sort of implicit biases and, I think, sort of if you’re the old white guy in the room there can be the sense like somehow we’re saying you’re a bad person or that is can kind of sort of come across as being a personal attack.

What are your thoughts on that about how do sort of make them feel like they’re part of the solution and not the problem?

Andie: One of the tricks is that if you make them part of the solution as oppose to part of the problem. One of the things that Al and I have been doing in some of the workshops and the training that we’ve been doing is we’re providing scenarios and role playing -- depending on how much time we have -- and create set up the problem and allow the women and the men “How would you handle this?” and discuss it as a group.

By being part of the solution, it can be a very effective way of making the points. We’ve had people walk out of these workshops saying “I can’t believe that I really thought I didn’t have any biases and I now see that I do and I now see that there are things that I can do to prevent this going forward.

Jeena: I love that and I love kind of making people feel like they’re allies and that they can be part of the solution.

As we kind of wrap things up, do you have sort of final advice? I Guess I'm more actually interested in advice that you might have for the guy listeners on the podcast. I feel like we gave lots of advice to the women that are listening.

Andie: Well, I think, the first thing that men need to do is they need to understand why it is that women are not succeeding in the same pace that men are. They need to understand that it’s not that women are more interested in baking cookies for the party or being the party planner.

They need to encourage the women. They need to bring them onto their teams. They need to take the women out to lunch and talk to them and mentor them the same way that they mentor the men. They need to not follow the Mike Pence rule of “I’m never having a meal with somebody who’s a woman.” They need to understand that they need to be champions for women as well as for men. That’s really the starting point. From there, I think, the whole world would open up.

Jeena: I think just to sort of recognize that, you know, sometimes it may not be comfortable. So a lot of these suggestions that you have might not come naturally. You might actually have to look at why is it that these suggestions make you feel uncomfortable and kind of doing it anyway.

Andie: Exactly. Exactly.

And that we’re all educable because, probably, 80% of the people that we interact with wants to do the right thing. Maybe there’s 10% that are going to need more work at it and then there’s maybe 10% that just don’t care. But 80% of the people that we deal with want to do the right thing.

So, to the men out there who are listening, they have an opportunity to be a change agent and they can help make sure that women do succeed at work.

Jeena: Perfect. I think that’s the perfect last comment. But before I let you go, I have one additional question.

The name of this podcast is called the Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Andie: Resilient lawyer to me is a lawyer who is going to adopt the grit, mindset, mind priming, and coping sense of humor that is what’s going to allow you to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and figure out that if you keep hitting the wall, maybe if you step 2 feet to the left, you could actually go through a door. That’s what it all is.

If we apply, if we put these pieces together, we can’t just keep doing the same thing. But being resilient is learning from our mistakes and raising our hands so that men and women need to raise their hands to get on the projects that are going to give us the strength to do more and more important work going forward.

Jeena: Andie, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Andie: Well, thank you so much for allowing me to share my thoughts and resilient lawyers going forward. Go team, go.

Jeena: Thanks.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Billie Tarascio on to talk about starting and operating a law firm that focuses on putting a wellness culture first.

Billie is a family law attorney and the owner of Modern Law and Modern Law Practice, LLC in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country through it's focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is a mother of four, a yoga and mind enthusiast, and the author of two books: Decode Your Divorce and Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys.

Topics Covered

• Starting a small law practice: how she ended up starting her practice and tips/tools she used to navigate such a large life change. She also talks on how she got into family law.
• How her law firm is organized differently than a traditional firm and how she finds balance, skills she had to learn, and what she wishes she had known. She also talks on time management and how to intentionally carve out time to do the things that need to be done.
• How she decided to start her own practice, how she chose her practice area, and how although we are not taught to be business owners, it can be easier than you think if you go about it the right way.
• She talks on marketing, how she figures out what works for her and how law firms should approach marketing.
• The COBE set of standards that her law firm holds as their core values: Compassion, Optimism, Bravery, and Empathy.

Learn more about Billie and Modern Law Practice at:
Modern Law
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

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Transcript

Billie Tarascio: [00:00:01] Marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table.

Intro: [00:00:23] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Billie Tarascio. She is a family law attorney and an owner of Modern Law and Modern Law Practice in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country, through its focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is the mother of four, a yoga and wine enthusiast, and she's the author of two books: "Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys" and "Decode Your Divorce."

[00:01:18] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6-minute guided meditation practice to work with loneliness. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Billie. Billie, welcome to the show.

Billie Tarascio: [00:02:07] Thank you so much, glad to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:08] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Billie Tarascio: [00:02:16] Well, my name's Billie Tarascio. I'm an attorney, a mom, an entrepreneur, a business owner, and I love wine, yoga, and all things outdoors and travel.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:30] Wonderful. So maybe we can go back a little bit, did you start your own law practice right out of law school? How did you end up starting this business?

Billie Tarascio: [00:02:43] I knew really early on that I did want to own a law firm and start my own practice, and I knew I didn't really want a traditional career path. My oldest son was born my third year in law school, and I knew right away I didn't want to go into big law. So right away I sort of designed a career path that would allow me to learn as much as possible. And I worked for four or so firms as a contractor, different sizes and different types of individuals, and just started studying how they did what they did.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:26] And how did you end up focusing on family law?

Billie Tarascio: [00:03:31] I knew early on I wanted to do family law. I was probably impacted most by my parent's divorce; they went through a divorce when I was early in college and I knew I wanted to go to law school, and it just seemed like such a real law. Law that really had an impact on people's lives, and was less focused on technical terms and more focused on how do I solve problems and how do I really have an impact on people.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:03] Yeah, I think that's the reason why a lot of people end up in their practice areas, because of personal experience. I have talked to criminal defense attorneys and they had some run-ins with the law that also inspired them to do their practice area.

[00:04:17] So tell me more about Modern Law, how are you guys organized and how is it different than a traditional law firm?

Billie Tarascio: [00:04:26] Sure. Modern Law is a family law firm in the greater Phoenix area, and I think it looks like most modern law firms; we have work-from-home policies, everything's cloud-based, it's very millennial-focused where I'm not asking you to check in a certain time. We work when we need to to get our jobs done, and there's a lot of freedom and a lot of autonomy. And at the same time, there's accountability and structure, meetings, communication, and collaboration.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:05] Do you guys have a physical office that you come to, or are you guys completely virtual?

Billie Tarascio: [00:05:11] No, we do we have two physical office spaces, but attendance in them is not required.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:17] It's just so different than a traditional law firm. I think it's less true now, but I remember when I started practicing law back in 2003 or 2004, face time was very important. There was a lot of emphasis on spending as much time as you possibly can sitting behind your desk, because I don't know why. It was always drilled into me, you should just have like a lot of face time at the office. I remember being like, I don't have any work. Why do I need to be sitting behind my desk? That doesn't make any sense.

Billie Tarascio: [00:05:50] No, it doesn't. And it's not that face time isn't important, but face time for the sake of face time is not important.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:58] Yeah, great point. So I know you have this law practice, but you also have an interest in having a more balanced lifestyle, especially I would imagine with kids it's always a struggle. So how do you go about finding balance, and what does balance look like to you?

Billie Tarascio: [00:06:20] Balance, for me, is spending time on things that are important and most valuable. And by constantly doing that analysis and determining what is the most important thing for me to be spending my time on right now, I find that I can do almost everything that I want to do.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:45] What are the top three most important things, and how do you go about actually checking in to make sure that you're prioritizing those things? I think we all kind of intuitively think, I need to have a healthy diet, I need to get some exercise, I need to spend time with family and friends, and I also need to get work done. But just in terms of the day-to-day, "how to prioritize," I think oftentimes we tend to do the thing that feels most pressing and important, rather than taking a step back and saying, "Okay these are my priorities, and how do I actually carve out time?" Because I think things like spending time with friends and family can often go by the wayside.

Billie Tarascio: [00:07:30] Right, I completely agree. What happens to me, and probably a lot of people, is things just creep up and we can feel ourselves approaching burn out. We can feel anxiety growing or we're not sleeping, our body is giving us indications that things are out of balance. Sometimes it takes a while before we're like, oh my gosh I'm miserable. And I think we all go through it, but I think it's a great time to say let's take a step back, let's look at all of my tasks, all of my priorities, and reassess and make changes. Because we're not slaves to our circumstances at the moment; we have the ability to make changes, to change priorities, to delegate different tasks, and to be living the life we want to live. It just takes a lot of effort.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:34] Yeah. What tools or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there for gaining clarity on those things that are important to you, and also actually intentionally carving out time on a regular basis for including those in your schedule?

Billie Tarascio: [00:08:55] Two amazing questions. Let's start with the second one, how do we make sure that we can take the time to do the things we know we need to do, but they're hard to get done? And I think that that all comes down to routine. At Modern Law we close early on Friday's and we bring in a yoga instructor, so that at least every Friday we've got time set aside for physical activity and mental wellness and checking in. I find it really hard to spend as much time doing physical activity as I wish I could. I don't have a great routine for that; it's pretty easy to do on the weekends, it pretty easy to do on Friday afternoon when we close early, but it's challenging to do during the week. And it's challenging to do when I'm traveling, which I've ended up doing more and more. So if you have any tips, I would love to know how to work that in.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] Yeah, so once a week on Sunday's I look at my week and just see what's in my calendar. And I'm all about scheduling things, so I will regularly put 15-minute breaks in my calendar. Because you know how it goes, if you just allow things to end up on your calendar you'll just devote all of your time to everyone else, and then not yourself. I also like to sign up for things where there is no refund; my local yoga studio, you have to sign up in advance and I hate losing money, so I'll sign up for 2 yoga classes and I just feel terrible if I don't go, so I make myself go. I also try to spend as much time as I possibly can on the weekends outdoors, I think having that connection to nature is so healing. I also have the best insights when I'm out and about and just walking around.

I will also schedule personal retreats, I usually try to take a week a couple times a year where it's just.. it's not really a vacation because I feel like when you go on vacation there's a lot of stuff that you do on vacation. But I'll find a little cabin out in the woods somewhere with no internet and bring good reading materials, and just spend a lot of time outdoors. But I think also finding something that works for you is really important. I know for some people it's playing a musical instrument or painting; I think there are just different things that we all need to do to nourish ourselves, and that's such a challenge. It's a struggle for me, and I have yet to meet someone that's like, I've got this wellness thing all figured out. I think it's always a challenge and a struggle.

[00:11:55] So one of the things they don't teach you in law school is how to be an entrepreneur, and I certainly found that to be a challenge when I started my own law practice; no one taught me how to do accounting, how to manage a trust account, or how to do marketing. What tips or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there that are thinking about starting their own practice?

Billie Tarascio: [00:12:24] Well I'm glad that we're talking about this, because it's something that I'm hugely passionate about. You gave a couple of examples, how to do a trust account, how to do accounting, or how to do marketing. And no, we are not taught how to be business owners, but you can go learn something like accounting or trust accounting; there are directions and rules. But most of law practice there isn't; there is no guidebook, there isn't a standard model that works. When we talk to our mentors who are 30 years older than us, they were living under a different set of conditions and completely different rules for how to practice and how to make practicing work. I happen to just really like this stuff. so I've spent the last 10 years in my law firm experimenting with how we do consultations, how long should intake take, what are the conversion rates from the number of people who contact us to schedule to show up? What is the right AR ratio? All these little, nuanced details of practicing. A projection that I'm working on now in my practice is taking these best practices that I've been able to create, predictability and security in my firm, and plugging them into other law firms to say, does this work across the board? Not every lawyer wants to be an entrepreneur; some lawyers don't want to work for a firm that is outdated and works poorly, but they also don't want to spend the time to figure out everything from scratch.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:22] So I guess for the lawyers out there that are like, I want to start my own practice but don't really like the idea of marketing.. and I think also sometimes lawyers have a misunderstanding about what marketing is. They think I don't want my face on a billboard, or they think about doing marketing in a way that doesn't align with who they are. So I'm curious, when you're doing marketing how do you think about doing it and go about figuring out what's going to work for you?

Billie Tarascio: [00:15:00] So, we have marketing philosophies that are pretty ingrained, and that's that marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:35] How is your law firm different than other family law firms? When you're doing your 30-second pitch about who you are and what you do, what makes you unique and different?

Billie Tarascio: [00:15:52] It all comes down to our values. And it took several years to really uncover these values, but once we did (and it's not that we chose them, it's that we dug down to find them, because they were always there) and they are: whole health, growth, and this acronym called "C.O.B.E.", which stands for compassion, optimism, bravery, and empathy. So we've taken these values and we've written out, what does this really mean? Both internally in how we treat one another, and externally in how we treat our clients. These values are our Constitution, so we are committed to the whole health of our clients. Which means we will not take actions in their divorce that will hurt them or their families long-term. It's not an option. So if you ask us to do something that is outside of our values, then we're not going to do it and you're probably not a good fit for the law firm. So really knowing who we were and communicating to our potential clients who would be a good fit has made all the difference in attracting the right clients, and being able to differentiate us from the lot.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:05] Oh, I love that. So let's go through COBE. The first one, compassion; I talk a lot about compassion with lawyers, and usually I get the rolling of the eyes or I can sense the collective cringe in the room. So when you say compassion, what does that mean to you?

Billie Tarascio: [00:17:26] It means understanding that even though I've been practicing divorce since 2005, the person sitting across from me is going through this for the first time. So even though I may feel like this doesn't matter or this is routine, it is not routine for them, and the things we take for granted are not things that they may know. And we're going to intentionally set aside our baggage to be present for them, and compassionate for where they're at.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:00] So it doesn't mean that you're going to concede to what the other party wants always, or always show up chipper and happy, or you are going to get along with everyone, which is some of the feedback that I get whenever I talk about compression. They're like oh Jeena, I know you live out in California and you do the compassion stuff. And I think the point you made about the things that are important to our clients that we may not even think about is so true. I do bankruptcy law and I'm often surprised that know clients will have these huge concerns about losing their dog or their mother's necklace that they got when their mom passed away. And I'm usually like no you can keep your dog, but I think sometimes we need to pause and dig a little bit and say, tell me about the significance of that. Because I think we can actually end up getting a lot of information and also gain a better understanding of where our clients are coming from.

Billie Tarascio: [00:19:06] Right, yeah. So compassion is probably also like curiosity; be there, get to know these people on a human level, and be willing to meet them there on a human level, and then you'll get loyalty and happy clients who are happy to pay their bill.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:23] All right, so let's do the O: what does it stand for, and what does it mean to you?

Billie Tarascio: [00:19:30] It's optimism, and it means that it can be very easy to get discouraged or to say it's never going to work, what you're asking we're never going to be able to get, and we're not going to practice law that way. Be creative, and being creative and optimistic means we will think about this for a while. If you have something that's really important to you that normally a judge doesn't care about, it does mean we can't get it, it means we need to be a little bit creative and figure out how can we make that happen for this client.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:08] How do you maintain optimism in a practice area.. I think in law practice in general, there is a struggle for keeping up your optimism. What do you do on a daily basis to restore and recharge your optimism?

Billie Tarascio: [00:20:28] Well, we try to hire people who tend to be naturally optimistic. It's a whole lot easier to be optimistic if that's just how you look at life. And the internal dynamics really, really affect the way each of us feels when we come to work. But also, we read things like Crucial Conversations and we take time to invest in one another and our clients. We celebrate all of our wins, so any good client feedback that we get goes out to everyone. I think that really helps encourage optimism and help people understand wins. So we celebrate every court win, every client win, all the good feedback, and just try to put positivity into our working measurement.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] I love it. And the B?

Billie Tarascio: [00:21:18] B is bravery, and it's sort of related to optimism. It means that we're not going to get discouraged; it's very easy to get discouraged, but we're willing to take risks on our client's behalf. And it kind of comes along with the creativity and optimism. We're going to take on tough cases, we're going to make bold arguments, and we're going to really go to bat for our clients and hope for the best outcome - even if it means the judge may say no.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:48] Right. And I think so often the clients really appreciate you going to bat for them, even if they don't get the outcome that they want. They just appreciate having an advocate that stood up for them and fought for what they wanted, or what they thought was just. And I think as lawyers we tend to put so much emphasis on the winning part and getting the client what they want, which of course is important; I'm not dismissing that at all. But I think we often underestimate how important it is for our clients that we tried; we showed up and did our thing, and tried our best.

Billie Tarascio: [00:22:25] Right, right. And as lawyers, we win. We are people who like to be successful, so we may have a tendency to aim lower than we could because we don't want to fail. And that's not in our client's best interests; in our client's best interest is our ability to look outside of ourselves and be brave.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:50] Yeah, totally. Alright, and finally last but not least, the Y.

Billie Tarascio: [00:22:56] Empathy, it's actually an E. It's empathy.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:59] Oh okay, got it.

Billie Tarascio: [00:23:01] COBE's a made-up word, obviously. And empathy is kind-of related to that compassion piece, of really being able to see each person's perspective. It doesn't mean we agree with them, and it doesn't mean that we cave to them, but it really allows us to understand where are they coming from and why are they saying the things that they're saying. And this allows us to communicate better to every single person we come into contact with; having empathy for the opposing counsel or for the judge, or for the mediator who's in a bad mood. All of those things help us get better outcomes for our client.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:39] I'm curious, in your mind what's the difference between compassion and empathy?

Billie Tarascio: [00:23:47] That's a good question, I almost feel like I need to pull up the long, written descriptions. I don't know, what do you think is the difference between compassion and empathy?

Jeena Cho: [00:24:12] This totally isn't something that I came up with, it's something that I learned in a book.. I wish I can credit the source, but compassion is when you walk alongside someone that is going through a difficult time or suffering. So you're their ally, you're there for support. Versus empathy, which is where you literally put yourself in the shoes of someone else. So you are feeling with them, which can take a toll on you. So you want to be careful of how much empathy you put out there, because that can lead to burnout. When you over-identify with what the client is going through and imagine yourself in their situation or their scenario, which can be really hard. Versus compassion, where you have some distance from what they're going through.

Billie Tarascio: [00:25:10] Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it's something that comes up with new family law attorneys all the time. We have to understand our role as attorneys, and our role as an attorney is limited in their life. They've got their whole life story, so compassion does really seem to be the more appropriate role for an attorney. Like I want to understand you, but your life and your problems, we're not going to take them home; we're not going to take responsibility for them.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:39] Right, yeah totally. Billie, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you and your law practice, where is the best place for them to do that?

Billie Tarascio: [00:25:53] I am all over the place, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. So if you just Google me, you'll get to me for sure. Or tweet @MyModernLaw, the website is www.mymoderlaw.com or www.mymodernlawpractice.com.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:11] Great, you have such a great website so I encourage everyone to go check it out. And Billie, before I let you go one final question. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Billie Tarascio: [00:26:25] That's a good question. Resilience I think is adaptability. And I heard recently something that I think is so important. Stress doesn't hurt us, it's our reaction to stress that hurts us. So our ability to take our stressful situation, pull out the positive, figure out the next direction, and do it quickly, and be forgiving ourselves, I think is the key to being resilient.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:59] I love that. Billie, thank you so much for joining me today, I really appreciate you sharing your time and your wisdom with me.

Billie Tarascio: [00:27:07] I appreciate being here, thank you so much Jeena.

Closing: [00:27:12] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I interviewed South Carolina Circuit Judge Kristi Lea Harrington. She currently serves as the Chief Administrative Judge for General Sessions and Common Pleas for the Berkeley County, in the Ninth Judicial Circuit. Judge Harrington has completed her 200 Hour Yoga Teacher Training through Gaea Yoga School in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina. She volunteers her yoga teaching with a local church group.

Topics covered:

• The importance of valuing your time
• Recharging your personal battery to remain attentive
• Spreading and encouraging your mindfulness habits on others
• Yoga is not only for the experts

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Check out this episode!

Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer Podcast, brought to you by Start Here HQ -- a consulting company that works with lawyers to create a purpose driven and sustainable legal career. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life.

Now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena: In this episode, I’m so thrilled to be sitting down with Judge Harrington. She is a South Carolina Circuit Judge currently serving as the Chief Administrative Judge for general sessions and common place for the Berkeley County and the Ninth Judicial Circuit.

Judge Harrington has completed her 200 hour yoga training through Gaea Yoga School in Mount Pleasant in South Carolina. She volunteers her yoga teaching with a local church group. Her passion for mindfulness and yoga has led her to be involved with the South Carolina Bar Wellness Section and Charleston Wellness Luncheons coordinated with a local attorney. Judge Harrington, I am so happy to have you on my show. Thank you for joining me.

Judge Harrington: Thank you for having me.

Jeena: To just jump right in, can you give our listeners maybe just a little brief overview of your career and how you got to be a judge.

Judge Harrington: I was the child of a attorney who was a late in life career change. I actually saw my dad change careers. He graduated from law school when I was about 9. I got to see, firsthand, some of the stressors although I didn’t, at that time, realize what it was. The change that he went through and how our family had to adapt to those stressors.

Really became interested in the law and went to the University of Tulsa. Both of my parents grew up in Tulsa. That my dad had been in the military and retired here in Charleston and then went to the University of South Carolina College of Law. I had gone to visit some relatives and ended up falling in love with Tulsa.

At that law school, at the time, they needed some geographic diversity and being from the south, they offered me admission, and so it seem like a great fit. Really began to be immerse in the District Attorney’s office. At that time, he was still the beginning of the transition where there more females in the legal profession. I was able because nobody else wanted to do the crimes against women and children, the bails, and say that’s where my niche became.

I was fortunate enough to be able to return back home in 2001 after the birth of my son, just the bar here, if there’s no reciprocity in South Carolina. Then was hired and was prosecuting crimes against women and children in the Ninth Circuit where I’m now a judge.

We are kind of a hybrid election process in South Carolina. We are elected by the General Assembly through a series of exams and interviews with community leaders and bar questionnaires in a judicial exam. The members of the General Assembly actually have an election and we are elected.

I was fortunate enough to make it through the process. They go through a very lengthy process and then there’s three individuals and then those people are actually the ones that are voted on.

At the time that I was elected to the bench, I was the youngest circuit judge and one of six females in the circuit judges in the state. So it was pretty momentous for me. I was 37 when I was elected, 38 when I took the bench. And then being so young and a female in a traditionally male dominated world, primarily only having criminal experience, I faced some challenges. I think that’s probably what led me to this mindfulness -- again back to yoga and meditation and calming techniques.

Jeena: When did you know that you are interested in being a judge? Like, to me, being a judge just feels so adult. Being a lawyer is pretty adult but being a judge is like super adult. How did that decision come about where you’re just like “Yeah, I think I would like to sit on the bench.”

Judge Harrington: I remember, and this is probably is just going to sound very cliché, but I remember when Sandra Day O’Connor got appointed. That was Ronald Reagan. That was about the time my dad was graduating law school and entering into practice and how significant it was that that was the first female on the bench.

I think that stuck with me more than anything else. Just knowing that being a judge is really… I don’t think it’s for everyone. I don’t think that’s a decision… There are some days that I miss being on the other side of the bench and actually practicing law and being an advocate. But I realized that I could really love the law and be a learner and a student of the law on this side of the bench. Just the ultimate, I think, realization of all of your efforts and hard work.

Jeena: Yeah. You touched upon just being a woman and also being a young judge. Can you share like some of the difficulties or the challenges that you’ve had to face and also, perhaps, how you sort of overcame it or if you just sort of had to accept it as it is.

Judge Harrington: Probably for the first three years because we travelled the circuit. I was travelling so often I wasn’t necessarily in the same courthouse every week. I remember coming into the courthouse, I had my robe and my laptop and everything. The bailiff was looking at me and he says “Where’s your judge?” I said “I am the judge.” He goes, “No, no, I’m waiting for Judge Harrington. Where is Judge Harrington?”

About that time I had a male law clerk. He was a non-traditional student, a little bit older, walk ed behind me and he goes, “Oh, there’s Judge Harrington” and I said “No, that’s my law clerk. I am the judge.”

I had very similar stories about that. You just try to… South Carolina is a very traditional state. You understand where people are coming from, that that deputy did not have any ill intent. He was not trying to slight me in the least. You just realize where people are coming from and go about and just do the very best that you can. I don’t have that very often anymore.

When I was running for election, I did have people ask “Who’s going to take care of your child?” That was less than 10 years ago. I’ve been on the bench now 9 years. I don’t know that the female judges, the candidates that are running now have that same questions asked of them. But, again, I think you have to determine how offended are you going to be. Why did that person ask that question and what was really the reasoning behind it?

While it’s not pleasant when you’re dealing with it, I think that we all… For me, it was just questions that people were asking out loud and I think, sometimes, the same biases and prejudice are hidden. I was fortunate that people were saying these things out loud to me so that I could deal with them and confront them head on.

Jeena: When I think about doing something that seems very important like becoming a judge, like really what I sort of notice is that kind of like that inner credit. It’s like, “Wait, you don’t know enough. Who do you think you are?” I’m curious, did you sort of have to wrestle with that as you were kind of going through the judgeship or even like once you took the bench because you’re a baby judge. I’m sure there’s a lot of those moments where you’re just like “Oh my gosh, what do I do now?”

Judge Harrington: I have those moments every day. I don’t think that it ever gets any better, or at least it hasn’t for me. While I was running, I just didn’t know enough to be scared about the process. It just seemed… We, as lawyers, think that we’re invincible. We can do whatever it is that we set our minds to and, I think, for me that was the next logical step and there was an opportunity and I was going to make that opportunity available to me.

But the inner critique, every day, because, for me, what I do matters to so many people in so many levels. It matters not only to the defendant but it matters to the victim, the attorneys that are involved, the community, and to the legal profession and to what my decisions stand for around the state and then potentially could impact decisions around the country, depending upon if they are appealed. I have made a bad decision and it makes bad law and so I think about those things.

I want everybody that comes in front of my court to feel that they might not have been given a perfect trial because there is no such thing and the law does not require that. But that they got a fair trial and they had the opportunity to be heard.

Jeena: Yeah, which I really think is really what people want at the end of the day. Like an opportunity where they feel like they were truly heard. I certainly find that with my clients. People might be sort of fighting about the money but that’s really not what the fight is about, you know, so there’s like all of these sort of underlying things that’s happening in every case. If you can sort of address that in some way just by like listening to them, that kind of gives people that sense of, “Yeah, like I was heard. Even though the judge didn’t rule in my favor, I feel like I was treated fairly.”

Judge Harrington: I hear that a lot from defendants or when I’m doing criminal cases. From defense attorneys, my client just wants to talk to you. He just wants his day in court. It’s that opportunity to have his side of the story or her side of the story heard and acknowledged even though it legally may not be the winning argument or anything of that nature. They just want the acknowledgement that what they said is important.

Jeena: I would also imagine that just having to really focus and sort of pour all of your attention hour after hour, day after day, can feel very tiring and can certainly lead to potential burn out and, of course, all of these issues that lawyers face, and I’m sure judges face to a certain extent. What are some practices that you do on a, sort of a regular basis, to sort of recharge your own battery so that you can continue to be a judge that’s attentive and just fully present?

Judge Harrington: Those are really good questions. The question that I struggle with on a daily basis is how do I get everything that I need to get done in the day done well and practice self-care? That’s the struggle. Always it’s preparation. It’s constantly, for me, looking ahead and saying “What can I get done that is truly important? What can I either delegate or cut out in order to carve time?” We all know if we don’t put it on the calendar, it’s not going to get done.

I have been on Sunday afternoon looking at my calendar and scheduling in my favorite yoga classes and I started spin class. Scheduling to make sure that those things are on the calendar and I treat them like an appointment. I go ahead and sign up for the class so there’s a penalty to me if I don’t show up. I will be charged a late fee, or something of that nature. I think then that holds me accountable and my staff knows the calendar and set aside a time for me.

It does mean that some days I have to be at the gym at 5:30 in the morning in order to get it done. But I know that that’s what I need to get done just for the mental clarity. I think a lot of people think because judges sit so much that they’re lazy and they can’t be tired but it’s mentally exhausting.

Especially if I’m doing a multi defendant construction case, that I may have 20 attorneys involved in one case and it’s me and my one law clerk. When they bring me 3 and 4 inch binders every attorney, it’s a juggling act and, I think, attorneys forget. I don’t have the staff behind me that they think that they have access to or that they may think that I do. I’m unable to read and listen and write all at the same time.

I think that being really protective of your time and not wasting it, keep it a sacred space and you know, “Okay, this is important to me and I’ve got to concentrate or focus on this particular case but I’m going to give you the 2 hours that you’ve allotted. And then I’m going to move on to the next thing because that’s just as important.”

Jeena: Yeah. Those are all such great points. And I love that you actually calendar in self-care time because often when I talk to lawyers, they’ll have 26 things that’s on their to-do list and maybe yoga class ends up on the bottom of that list and I’m always like “No, yoga class doesn’t belong on the bottom of your to-do list.”

Judge Harrington: Right. Right. I also teach at the law school and I make it a priority for every semester that I have some sort of wellness activity. That we have a yoga class as a class, that we have a spin class, that we do something outside of the law school that has nothing to do, it’s not for a grade, there’s no judgments. It’s just to have fun totally for the mindfulness and to take care of yourself. Just to start cultivating those practices.

Because, for me, as wonderful as I try to be, that’s the first thing that goes. If I’m tired then I don’t make that 6:15 or 5:30 spin class and then you just never make that back up. Making and realizing how much better you feel.

I also think it’s really important to reach out to people that you see may be struggling and say “Hey, what are you doing Friday? I'm trying this new class at yoga. What do you think about going with me someday?”

I think that’s important too that when you see your friends and she says “I haven’t seen you at the yoga studio. Where have you been?” That’s also something you fell.

Jeena: Yeah. I find that all of these sort of healthy behaviors make it easier to link additional healthy behaviors. So if you know you have to be up at 5:30 for a yoga class, that also means you have to go to bed earlier so you get sufficient amount of sleep because you don’t want to show up to yoga class sleepy, and tired, and cranky. Which also then means you have to eat dinner a little bit earlier and it also probably means you’re probably not going to want to eat like something super unhealthy because then you’re not going to feel very good in yoga class the next day. I find that all of these healthy behaviors link to one another. Also, the really importance of making these a habit in your daily life.

Judge Harrington: Right. Simple things like that, to me, were also competitive. So I have a Fitbit, that I have several Fitbit friends, some are other judges.

Jeena: I love that.

Judge Harrington: Every so often we’ll get… I’ll send a challenge to see how many steps we can do in a week. I’ve got reports back that some of my judges are in their courthouses just walking up and down the hallways just so that they can beat me. Those are good things.

Jeena: Yeah.

Judge Harrington: Because if we just sit -- as judges, particularly, we sit so much. If I’m traveling to different county, I may be in the car for 90 minutes before I even get to the courthouse. So that means that I am really almost sitting 12 hours a day. Then by the time you get home, you’re having to prepare for the day the next day reading cases and getting caught up from emails and those things. You’ve just got to say.

But, I think, it is so important once you just get started going to yoga class. It’s going to be… you get to bed earlier. It means you’re going to be drinking more water and eating better. So, I think, they all do kind of intertwine and play into each other.

Jeena: Yeah, definitely.

We’ve kind of talked about yoga but… I guess maybe a good place to start is just have you explain like what exactly is yoga?

Judge Harrington: I have my… so we went through yoga teacher training but before then, I don’t have one that really definition of yoga. I have done aerial yoga. Tried that. I’ve done laughing yoga, I’ve done Bikram, hot yoga. Again, I’ve done various styles of yogas. So as far as what styles of yoga, I think there’s a variety.

I think where a lot of lawyers are non-practicing yogis get caught up as they think that you’re going to go into this room and you’re going to be chanting and all these contorted poses and that’s just not at all what it is. I have yoga teachers in all shapes and sizes. There’s not one body shape or one background for a yogi.

For me what yoga is is the opportunity. What it means for me is the opportunity to take that time to reconnect my mind, and my breath, and my body. To kind of bringing them all back into a union and then forgetting that for just however long I can do that. Forgetting yet, at the same time, being able to be in touch with the breath and the body and letting all that crazy -- we call it crazy monkey mind -- stop.

Jeena: Yeah.

Judge Harrington: That I’m not worried about the client’s view and did I meet that deadline? And I’m not worried about what opposing counsel Bob said to me today. And I’m not worried about what my husband said to me on the way out of the house this morning. Is the dinner ready and all of these things.

It’s just that time it take to get that center the way we needed it to be.

Jeena: I love that.

You talk about sort of this union of mind and body and I find that -- especially with layers, we play such a high value on the mind. I had lawyers tell me things like, “Well, my body is just there to carry my head around.” That was kind of funny.

Can you just talk a little bit about the importance of creating that union between the mind and body. Because, I think, just so often, lawyers… like I said, they place such a high value on just their mind. So when you talk about bringing a union to those two things, what does that mean and like why is it important?

Judge Harrington: What I understand the true purpose of yoga was to train the body and condition the body for you to be able to sit for extended periods of time, to meditate, and to utilize the highest potential of the mind. The very traditional pose is not the aerial yoga or things like that but the very traditional yoga poses are… that’s what they were was the conditioning of the body, to allow the mind to achieve its highest function.

When you think about that, sometimes that explanation will give attorneys or the skeptics so they can buy into that concept. That it’s not just a bunch of chanting or people in lululemon pants walking down with a cute yoga bag. There’s actually a purpose behind every one of the poses.

I know, again, just from sitting, if I don’t engage in… If you want to call it stretching, it’s better for you to wrap your head that I’m going to go to stretch class, that’s fine. But that’s what helps, in just the physical aspect of yoga, is allowing the blood to flow where it needs to flow. That we loosen up the fascia and the blockage and all of those things to allow our body to function the way that it needs to function.

Again, it’s not about being a particular size or shape, it’s about making sure your body is functioning and flowing the way that it needs to flow. The blood is getting to the brain as our bodies are designed to do in order for your mind to function at the highest.

If I’m sitting and I’m uncomfortable because my hips are tied and that my muscles are not loose enough and I’m stressed and clenched, I’m not focused on what I need to be focused on.

Jeena: Right.

Judge Harrington: If I’m able to breathe into that tightness then that allows the body to get out of the way so the mind can takeover.

Jeena: I guess maybe like a simple way of… or like a simple example might be when you have the flu, it makes it really, really hard to do all of your work because your body’s not feeling good. It just makes sense that when your body feels good that it naturally makes it easier to focus, and concentrate, and have your mind perform at optimal peak.

Judge Harrington: Right.

Jeena: I’m curious, you went through yoga teacher training, you’re teaching yoga. Have you sort of noticed the benefits of your yoga practice kind of going off the mat? So does it help you a better judge? Does it help you to be a better mom? Does yoga sort of help you in other arenas of your life than just the obvious sort of physical benefits?

Judge Harrington: I think, kind of all the aspects that we’ve touched on, it helps in every aspect. For me it puts what’s important back in focus. It’s a calming influence as well that I realize if I can hold the pose for 90 seconds, or 30 seconds, or work through the pain, then I can get through this situation. I could breathe in a certain way that I am able to take my emotions out of it and really start working from the conscience, in consciousness than the emotions.

Because people don’t come in front of me for happy reasons. I do felony criminal and common pleas which is civil. And, typically, I’m doing medical malpractice or a million dollar construction defect cases. People are coming to me because there’s a serious issue. People aren’t coming to me with happy thoughts. There’s a lot of emotion.

Somebody lost their child or their house has been taken away. For me, the yoga does help me put that in notion where it needs to be so that I’m not taking it home and giving it back to my child in an improper way. I’m not yelling at my son because of the way that a witness was on the witness stand. Or the way a defense attorney spoke to me in court. Think that it helps me get through the day and realize what the true emotion is and what the purpose of what it is that I’m doing.

Jeena: I always love yoga practice because it’s like a space where… Of course you kind of have to have this mindset that I can just show up as I am. I can show up tired, I can show up cranky, I can show up and to just kind of do the best that I can. For me, that’s just been such a huge learning. It’s not about trying to force your body or contort your body to look like the yoga instructor’s shape but it’s all about sort of meeting yourself exactly where you are in that moment. I think that’s such a great way to sort of approach life.

Judge Harrington: Right. There’s some days I do have a yoga mat set up in my home, in a room if I can’t make it to class. I do prefer going to a class. But if I’m in a hotel room because I’m traveling or at home, there’s just some days that I’m okay with just being in child’s pose on the mat. And that may be my practice for the day, that I have 20 minutes of child’s pose or a 20-minute savasana and that’s just okay. I think that’s exactly what you were saying that sometimes we expect so much of others that it’s nice for us to take that and say “I’m okay right here, right now.”

Jeena: Yeah, so true.

Of course, one of the things that we all struggle would is trying to find time; trying to find time for rest and for yoga and for enjoying time out in nature. Do you have suggestions or tips for, you know, actually like carving out time in your life.

Judge Harrington: Again, that’s a huge struggle because I think we’re being pulled not only as lawyers but as women and parents and spouses, friends, that we’re being pulled in in so many different ways. And for us to say “I’m going to take a 50-minute, or 1 hour, a 90-minute yoga class and take that time out of the short amount of time that we do have.” Especially those… I’m very fortunate. I’m not living by the billable hour and so I think for attorneys that live by the 15-minute increment, it’s really hard to justify taking that block of time.

But I know that it’s two-fold. I get rewarded not only for the time that I’m there but it’s an ongoing and I can feel the benefits into the next day. And I also feel the consequences when I don’t go. I feel cranky. My body is not performing at its best. I’m responding in ways that I don’t wish to respond.

I think we want to be the best that we can as lawyers, attorneys, and judges. We just need to make sure that we take a moment and kind of what is it? Is this really helping me to have that best life and to achieve what it is that I want? Taking something out may be what you need to do in order to put something better in.

Do you really need to be on every bar committee? Do you really need stay and go to every function that your law firm has? Can you say “I’m going to do one function a week and make sure that I do three yoga classes a week” instead of going to every happy hour.

Jeena: Yeah. And I think that is just the reality, right? That there are only 24 hours in a day and so time is one of our most precious resources. So I think we have to be sort of [unclear 00:34:02] sort of protect and guard how we allocate our time and also just be mindful about other people sort of taking our time without like our permission maybe or just kind of watching.

And I’ve been noticing, in terms of how I manage my inbox because that’s really one area where people can just demand all kinds of time from you. So now I’ve just gotten just more protective about how much time I spend in my inbox. For a lot of us, that’s where we spend just a tremendous amount of time.

When I sent you a list of questions and I asked you about how do you overcome your resistance, you offered an answer that I really love. I would love for you to sort of expand on it. But you said, “Ask yourself what can you do today that your older self will thank you for.” I thought that was such a great advice. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Judge Harrington: My yoga instructor at Gaea, Kate Smith, was wonderful and kind of started laying that thought process. She wasn’t teaching us to be today. She was also teaching us to be in great health when we’re 90. Talking about that, in her focus, was always on the anatomy and the spine and being protective of getting movement into your body, no matter what it look like. It didn’t have to be a particular pose but just making sure that you were utilizing the function of your body. And that we see, as we are ageing and we’re becoming an older population, that people are breaking hips and needing knee replacements and hip replacements even now at younger ages and it’s because we had become so sedentary.

I think to myself, “Alright, I really…” like today I had to go to a luncheon and there was a wonderful piece of key lime pie. I wanted that key lime pie because it had been a particularly trying day for me in court, and I knew I was going to have a equally challenging afternoon. I thought “You know that pie will make me feel good and I want that pie.” But I thought to myself “I don’t need that because that sugar and all of the contents of that pie, not only… it’s not the calories, it’s everything else.”

When I don’t want to exercise I think, “What is it that I’m not doing for my body that at 70 I will wish that I had done?” I think, as I get older -- I just had a birthday, I just turned 48 -- 70 seems to be coming quicker.

I probably, at 25, would have thought the same thing and now 70 does not seem that old. But what I want to do for me and for my best 70-year old self, or 80-year old self, is what can I do today?

I think when you look at it like that, it’s not about the traditional concept of beauty and thinness and exercise. It is “What am I doing to create a healthy lifestyle that can fit into my daily life that does require me to be at work for a particular schedule.

I don’t get to work out. I can’t work out 24 hours a day as much as I would love to do yoga for hours at a time. I don’t have that ability because I do love what I do as a judge. But I can do little small things everyday that will help me keep flexible and it’s touching the toes and just moving the spine and doing those things. I am certainly not a bendy yogi, by any mean, but I do like to move and make sure that every body part and muscle group is utilized.

Jeena: Yeah. That’s so important.

Anyway, you just actually talked about something I want to ask about is that just being flexible. Often, I think, people have this idea like “Oh, I can’t do yoga unless I’m super flexible.” So for the listeners that are complete newbies and maybe they feel inspired to go and try a yoga class, what do you think about that, that whole… Do you have to be flexible to practice yoga?

Judge Harrington: No, you do not have to be flexible to practice yoga. I think that’s a really common misperception about what yoga is. You don’t have to be flexible. The only thing you have to be flexible about is going and allowing yourself to have that opportunity. Again, it’s not about can you get into this twisted position? You talked about it beautifully. I am going to be on my mat and do what I can do today. That’s what yoga is. Whatever it is that you can do today, that’s where you need to be today.

Jeena: Yeah.

Judge Harrington: That’s where you need to meet yourself on the mat. What really is a beautiful thing and I think people get caught up me in your neighbor next to you on the mat. Don’t worry about that person. You don’t know what that person’s been through. We focus a lot on anatomy and structural variation. Your body is not like my body and we all know that there are structural variations, even amongst our size.

When we try to do bilateral poses, we can do a tree pose as a great example. You may be able, on your left leg, to hold 3 to 4 hours but never even be able to stand it all and balance on your right leg. Judging what your neighbor is doing on the mat is never what you need to do and I think that’s another really good life lesson to take from yoga.

Jeena: Totally, yeah.

Judge Harrington: There’s times that I go to a class and I have absolutely no balance because I’m not focused and I’ve let something else get into my head and so I don’t get frustrated. I would appear, probably from the observer, that I wasn’t flexible but that’s not what we’re doing in yoga.

Jeena: Yeah. I notice the same thing happens in my daily meditation practice is sometimes I’ll sit and I’ll have what seems like just endless streams of thoughts and a lot of those thoughts are unpleasant. You can easily get into this mode of like just judging, “Ugh, I shouldn’t have been thinking, I shouldn’t have been remembering that,” and then judging, judging, judging. But rather if you can sort of take a step back and kind of approach it with curiosity, right?

If you can say “Well, yesterday I meditated and it felt really good and I didn’t have that many thoughts but today it feels different.” We can bring that same sense of like curiosity to our yoga mat. It’s like “Huh. I have this thing called the body and how is it feeling today? Why is it that I was able to do the tree pose on my left leg yesterday and then today I can’t?” Yeah, I think just sort of holding that judgment that we all have with a lot of kindness. As lawyers we’re such perfectionist. I think this is such a great life lesson.

Judge Harrington: Yes, because I don’t know any perfect yogis. Even I have wonderful yoga instructors and teachers that came during the training but they are not perfect and they will tell you as well.

“Yesterday’s pose is not going to look like today’s pose, as much as you wanted to” to give up that attachment to what the pose looks like. And more important, to what you were saying, what does it feel like today?

Jeena: Yeah. Yeah.

Judge Harrington: And to let go of that perfection, the pursuit of the perfect posture.

Jeena: Yeah.

Judge Harrington: I love going into the Yoga Studios that I haven’t been try to go when I’m travelling to different locations, just always so welcoming. I would take that anybody that has never done yoga before wanted to try yoga, that that would be absolutely the best place to go because everybody is… they’re welcoming. I’ve never been to a studio and see the new person come in that the people did not just envelop that person with love and encouragement.

Jeena: Yeah, totally.

Also, you mentioned this earlier, there are so many different types of yoga. So I think it’s also probably worthwhile to try a few different ones and just find something that works for you. I’ve also notice just depending on… I don’t know if that’s just like ageing or for various reasons like I’ll fall in and out of different yoga’s. Like I’ve done Hatha yoga for a really long time, and then I did Bikram for a really long time, and now I’m doing more like Yen yoga. So I think it’s important to try different yogas and also try different instructors, right? Because I find some instructors are sort of better at holding that sort of space very kindly. I may also be perceiving the instructor as well.

Judge Harrington: No, I think that’s very, very true that there’s some that you’re feeding off their energy. And so it could be… You could take the same yoga class, the same sequence, with two different instructors and it would be totally different experiences. During training I experience that. Not that one is better or worse, they’re just different. What you find and what you need to guide you through that experience may be different from what I want or need.

I went through a period where all I did was Yen and now I, for some reason, have cycled back through and I’m doing a lot of Bikram.

Jeena: Oh, nice.

Judge Harrington: I think with where you are mentally and physically and what you’ve got going on physiologically with your body, your makeup, and what you’re hoping to achieve. And, I think, the studio matters. My local Bikram studio just changed owners so it’s a different feeling and I like the new instructor. It’s a really positive place.

Jeena: Judge Harrington, we’re kind of coming to the end of our conversation together. I just want to pause and see if there’s anything that you wanted to touch upon or any advice that you’d like to offer to our listeners or just want to see if there’s anything that wants to be said.

Judge Harrington: Well, I just… no matter where… If I’m speaking to a group of lawyers, I always encourage them not only to make sure that they’re taking care of themselves and whatever that looks like for them. I have attorney friends that are runners and that’s their meditation phase.

However it is that you’re taking care of you, that you have something that you’re carving out that time to reconnect with your body and your mind and that you realize how important it is to take care of you before it’s too late.

Likewise, to always be aware that other attorneys may be having challenges and to be kind when an attorney may not be as kind back to you or who may seem to be struggling to step back and make sure that that attorney has something. Maybe offer “Would you like to go get… do you want to go to a yoga class?” or to do something to make sure that that attorney… Because we are sometimes not… we’re tough on ourselves, certainly, but sometimes we do not lend that hand. We tend to be more adversarial than collegial.

So I encourage the collegiality because this is such a hard way to make a living and it can be difficult on the mind and the body and your relationships if you’re not well-balanced and grounded.

Jeena: Yeah, I love that advice. Much appreciated.

So my final question is this. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Judge Harrington: Excellent question.

It means that things are not always going to go well. As a matter of fact, I can guarantee you that things are not going to go well.

Jeena: Yeah.

Judge Harrington: But that you acknowledge that things are not going to go well and that you have prepared for that. That’s when the judge rules against you or when you have not prepared or missed a deadline or something, that you have skills and tools in place to stand back up and be who you need to be. And that you have separated the profession and your profession from your individuality, from your person and who you are.

Jeena: That’s so important. I really want to just thank you so much for being on the show, for sharing your time with me and the audience. I really appreciate it.

Judge Harrington: Well, thank you. It’s a pleasure.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on Rielly Karsh to talk about reframing the conversation around politics and motherhood, and why having more moms in positions of leadership matters.

Mom motivator and kid wrangler, Rielly is a former attorney, photographer, and passionate community leader. Lately, she answers to mom and councilwoman. An elected official in Clinton, NJ, where she lives with her husband and two kids, Rielly is dedicated to increasing the political engagement of moms at every level of the political landscape, helping them "run like a mother."

Topics Covered

• Her journey running for office and why having more moms in positions of leadership matter.
• Why we need more moms to run for office AND serve in leadership roles on campaigns, and how to deal with the nagging feelings of self-doubt.
• How the process of running for office starts, and what tools Moms Running offers to women to get more moms to run for office.
• How we help moms and society see beyond the label "just a mom," and see value in who they are and what they do.

Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode I am excited to have Robyn Pollack on to talk about the implementation and practice of diversity and inclusion, and treating it not as something we have to correct or fix, but rather who we are and our daily mission.

Robyn Pollack is CEO and Founder of Trellis Consulting LLC. A business strategist with an expertise in diversity and inclusion, Robyn increases financial return by teaching organizations to leverage their D&I initiatives more effectively. She was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years and addresses D&I issues through a distinct, business-oriented, strategic lens. She is also an adjunct professor at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, where she earned her J.D.

Topics Covered

• Her background in law, why she left, and what her company does in terms of diversity and inclusion for law firms and other business. We also talk about women and risk-taking in law.
• Turning a passion into a profession - how she had been involved in D&I issues throughout her career, and it only made sense when she decided to focus on it full-time.
• D&I in the law - what has to change and how to get there. She talks about how her law school classes are very diverse, but how does that translate into practice.
• The importance of building cultures of trust, value, and respect - having authentic, transparent cultures.

Learn more about Robyn at:

Trellis Consulting LLC
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Are you going through a personal or professional transition? Considering a career change but aren’t sure where or how to start?

If you’ve been neglecting that inner voice nudging you to look at your life, to try something different, but aren’t sure where or how to start, join Jeena Cho and Laura Mahr for a 1-hour free webinar.

August 22, 2018

9:30 AM – 10:30 AM PT
11:30 AM – 12:30 PM CT
12:30 PM – 1:30 PM ET

Register here: https://jeenacho.com/navigating/

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Robyn Pollack: [00:00:05] Risk-taking is about taking courageous, brave chances that are calculated and not reckless, and figuring out how to make it happen.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm happy to have Robyn Pollack. She is the CEO and Founder of Trellis Consulting. She is a business strategist with an expertise in diversity and inclusion. Robyn increases financial return by teaching organizations to leverage their D&I initiatives more effectively. She was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years and addresses diversity and inclusion issues through a distinct, business-oriented, strategic lens. She is also an adjunct professor at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, where she earned her J.D.

[00:01:15] Before we get into the interview, I want to tell you about my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should be practicing mindfulness and meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have a little bit of time carved out for yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Try practicing mindfulness six minutes a day for 31 days and see for yourself the difference it can make in your life. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that here's Robyn. Robyn, welcome to the show.

Robyn Pollack: [00:02:02] Hi Jeena, I am so excited to be here! Really honored to be taking part in this podcast with you, so thank you again for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:10] Give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Robyn Pollack: [00:02:14] So as you alluded to in the introduction, I am a business strategist with a focus in diversity and inclusion. So really what we do is we go into organizations, we do assessments and audits, we look under the hood to see what kinds of issues they're having or they may have, and then we take that data and we create customized, strategic business plans to solve their diversity and inclusion issues, and then we help them implement them. So really a big issue right now, I was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years as you said. So looking at diversity through a business lens, taking all of my experience and advising companies on financial and operational and legal and strategic issues, and utilizing that in the diversity space. So it's been a nice marriage of two areas of expertise for me.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:13] So how did you go from being a practicing lawyer to saying, I'm going to open up my own consulting company?

Robyn Pollack: [00:03:20] It's not as crazy.. well the jumping might be a little bit more risk-taking, but the journey itself isn't as crazy as it sounds. I was really involved in issues of gender diversity throughout my whole career, and I was very involved in a professional organization for restructuring professionals called the Turnaround Management Association. And as a young lawyer, I was asked to join the TMA; many people in my department were involved and said you've got to join, so I did. And my very first event was at the Union League in Philadelphia. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's very masculine, very male-dominated. In fact, for the bulk of it's history women weren't allowed in, so you can imagine what that looks like. They have huge portraits of men along the walls; huge, huge portraits, and their eyes sort of follow you as you walk down the hall. And I walked into this breakfast event and it was like the men in the portraits had jumped off the walls and were standing there in their dark suits, eating breakfast. So I felt very uncomfortable, very out of place, there was no one that looked like me.

And after a couple of these experiences, I went to the president of our chapter and I said, "Do we have a women's networking group?" And he said no, I asked if I could start one, and he said yes. So I did. Fast forward all of these years later, this international professional organization now has a women's group in almost every chapter that it has. I also ran the Women's Leadership and Development Initiative at the global level for several years while I was still practicing, and it was through that that I really learned that women need the substantive tools to succeed in the workforce and that we really need to change the workplace so that they can succeed and that everybody can succeed. So I really had a passion and an interest in all things diversity and inclusion throughout my career, and was at a crossroads at the law firm: did I want to sit here for another 20 years, or did I want to do something else? And I decided to take that leap and start my own company.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:41] What was the most challenging part of leaving law and starting your own consulting company?

Robyn Pollack: [00:05:48] I think the collaboration aspect of it is something that I certainly miss. I worked in a very collaborative department, we were always running in and out of each other's offices and bouncing ideas off of each other. So when you leave a situation like that and you go out on your own (and I am you know a solopreneur) you miss that camaraderie and collaboration. And there are certainly times where I miss practicing, but I do integrate. I write my own contracts and I negotiate my own deals within my business, so I do get to utilize my legal skills.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:34] I know you mentioned this already, that idea of risk-taking. What does that mean to you, and why is that so important for women in particular?

Robyn Pollack: [00:06:44] You know it's interesting, being a woman and a lawyer I think it's a double-whammy. I think women are traditionally less risk-taking than men. And maybe it's more that we're more cautious; not that we don't take risks, but that we think them through and we don't act rashly. So I think it maybe gives the perception that we are not risk takers because we take our time when taking a risk. And then, of course, being a lawyer we are quintessentially not risk takers at all. So you sort of put those two elements together, and it's amazing anybody ever leaves.

But I think that taking small steps and building on your successes.. and of course, I didn't just up and leave; I actually started my company while I was still at the law firm. I was trying to sort of ride that line and see if it was able to get any traction before taking that big leap, so I think that's one way to bridge the gap. But it takes a lot of bravery to take a risk, and I think that that's something that we all need to think about in our careers. Not that you have to do something as drastic as leaving, but what are the little risks that you can take every day in the law? How do you ask for stretch assignments, how do you position yourself for the next level, how do you make the ask? Those are things that women in law (particularly) need to think about as they move through their careers; if you don't ever take a risk, you're standing still.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:26] Yeah, so true. And also, as lawyers, we're so risk-avoidant. So how do you get better at risk-taking, and do it in a way that isn't just reckless?

Robyn Pollack: [00:08:41] That's a good question, and I think taking those small steps and testing the waters is one way to do it; you see that you can have success. It's really about building confidence, and also about having a plan. We talk about strategic plans with diversity, you really need a plan if you're going to take a risk. I mean, I didn't just wake up one day and say, hey I'm leaving my 20-year career to start this company. It was very well thought out, it was very methodical. I positioned myself in a way that I thought was the best way to position myself to make that transition. I also think starting it while I was still at the firm was part of that. Again, I wanted to see that there was some potential there before I made that leap. So I think having a plan, being agile, being able to shift the plan if things come along, all of that goes into good risk-taking.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:50] So what did that planning process involve? So you're working at a firm, how did you even go about testing the water for your business idea?

Robyn Pollack: [00:10:01] Well I started approaching people that I knew; I'd been doing a lot of speaking and programming through my work with the TMA. So that was a way to test the response I was getting, were people interested in this, was I providing value, was this going to be helpful? So that was one way that I was able to test the waters and see that there was a need for what I was doing. And then the planning process of thinking through how I was going to make that change; how was I actually going to implement that exit, how was that going to work? That was staying at the firm for a period of time, negotiating a period of transition where I was still there but I wasn't there as much.

It was sort of a slow slide to make that change. Again, I didn't just wake up with no planning and say, I'm doing this. And of course, it involves talking to your family and other people that a change like this is going to impact. My son was about to start college, so it's like what kind of crazy person leaves their secure, big law job to start a company when their child's going to college? It sounded crazy to me as a person, as a lawyer, as all of the things that make me risk-averse. But I did it, I did it. I think risk-taking is about taking courageous, brave chances that are calculated and not reckless, and figuring out how to make it happen. Again if you never take that risk, if I never did that, I would have lost something; I would have been standing still. So it's worth it, I think sometimes no risk, no reward. Sometimes you've got to do that to move forward in your life.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:58] Yeah. When you think about leaving law and doing something completely different, it can be really overwhelming to go from something that you know how to do really well into potentially an area that you're not as familiar with. Were there resources, whether people you worked with, coaches, or other people that you found to be helpful in helping you transition from being a lawyer to being a consultant?

Robyn Pollack: [00:12:27] Yeah, I certainly have had people along the way. And I think what's interesting about the question you just asked is that you need people at different points for different things, and I think I've had those people. I have somebody that has advised me on marketing and social media. Again, not something that lawyers really focus on as much as they probably should, especially in a big law firm where they have their own marketing department. So I was always good at networking, but I had somebody actually help me with sales. How do you actually take somebody through a sales process, how do you close a sale? Very, very different than getting a client in a law firm. So I think those people have been helpful to me. I do have a business mentor; somebody who's very successful, has a great leadership development company, a New York Times bestseller, she's a rock star and has been a great champion and a real resource to me. So yes, I definitely need those people along the way. And again like any mentor, you have several of them and you have different mentors for different purposes along that trajectory, as you learn and as you move forward.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] So switching gears just a little bit and moving into talking about diversity and inclusion, I remember when I graduated from law school in 2003 (it was a little while ago) we actually had slightly more women than men in our graduating class, we had a fair amount of people of color in our class too. And it just seems like this promise of having a more equal and inclusive legal profession has been talked about, yet when we look at the numbers they just aren't translating. And I don't know how you feel about it, but sometimes it feels tiring to even talk about D&I. And it always feels like it gets talked about in a vacuum. Like there's the firm and what the firm does, and then there's this little piece that's D&I, and we make sure that the D&I people do what they do so it looks good on some article or on some journal somewhere.

Robyn Pollack: [00:15:08] I totally hear you, and it's interesting because I teach at a law school and my classes are very diverse. And it's surprising to me how that doesn't get reflected in law firms, I don't know where people are necessarily going. Particularly people of color. I remember at my firm, we didn't have many people of color. Certainly, at the younger associate levels, there are more women than as you move up through the pipeline. But yeah, it surprises me when I walk into my class every year how diverse it is, and I'm wondering what is going on when it gets to the law firm level.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:55] So what is going on?

Robyn Pollack: [00:15:57] I think there's a couple of things. One thing is that activities do not equal strategy, and I think that is a point that is lost in law firms, and quite frankly in other companies and organizations. People think that they can run around and do a lot of stuff and that they're going to see results, and that's simply not true. That is not the way to do it. The only way diversity and inclusion works is to take that strategic approach like you would when you're rolling out a technology initiative or a marketing initiative or a safety initiative. You've really got to look at, what are the issues you're trying to solve, and how do we put together an actual, implementable, measurable, data-driven plan to solve those issues?

[00:17:05] A lot of times firms are just throwing stuff against the wall and they don't know why they're doing it; there is no measurable results, it's not tied to the overarching goals or objectives of the firm. All of the things that firms are doing for diversity should be tied to attraction, retention, evaluation, promotion, compensation, and leveling that playing field for everybody. I also think part of that is a circular issue, in that women, attorneys of color and other diverse attorneys don't see enough role models in leadership. Because they're not strategically helping people get up the pipeline, there's nobody there for people to look at. And I think particularly for younger lawyers, especially women looking at the women that have "made it," they look at those women and think, I don't want to do it this way.

If this is what I have to do to get there, then this isn't for me. I see that a lot, when firms put their top women equity partners on a panel and they talk about how they got there, I've seen younger associates sitting in the audience saying, "Oh my god is this my future?! This is not how I want to do it." And that creates issues too. So I think the law firm model has to change, I think law firms need to really embrace the importance of diversity and inclusion, and really appreciate what diversity does for them. It's not just a "check the box," it creates innovation, better problem-solving, better teams. I mean this is what lawyers do, right? We solve problems. If you have diversity of thought and experience and perspective on those legal teams, you are going to be creating much better results for your clients.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:07] And also, I think it's particularly hard in the legal industry because we don't like change and we like to go by precedent. So even things like the number of hours you're expected to be physically in the office versus being able to work remotely, I think the old guard is like no, I made partner doing it this way, and everybody else should do it this way too. Which just doesn't work for the non-white male lawyer, who lives in a traditional household where the wife either stays at home or works at a part-time job and she takes care of all the child-rearing responsibility, so on and so forth. And also as you mentioned, some people are like no, I don't want that model, that's not for me. And if you have enough younger attorneys rejecting the old model, then, of course, you're going to have the diversity issues. So how should the law firms be thinking about these issues? In terms of not only attracting new talent but also changing the structure of the firm so that it's more friendly towards women and people of color?

Robyn Pollack: [00:20:22] Yeah. And just before I answer your question, I think that generational issue that you're talking about is really important, because I think there are a lot of younger, millennial, white male lawyers who don't want that life or those hours either. Irrespective of what their family situation or other situation is. When you're talking about work-life integration, there's so many components; people want to have lives, people want to go to yoga, people want to volunteer on political committees. People want to do all kinds of things to round out their lives, so I think the normalization of this work-life integration concept needs to cross gender lines and needs to be throughout firms. And also, that starts to take the stigma away from it looking like a "mommy track", or a traditional woman's role that she wants to work part-time or needs to be home by 5:00, or whatever it is.

[00:21:25] To answer your question, the business world itself is changing. When people are retiring, it's Baby Boomers that are retiring. It's not millennials or Gen Z that are coming up, it's the older people. And so the newer, younger people that are coming into law firms are looking for something very different than what exists. And as you said, change is hard; change is hard for organizations, and really hard for firms because we are so risk-averse. We are trained to avoid risk and prevent risk, so that's where our mentality is. But I think the sooner that firms recognize that in order to be sustainable and to remain competitive, they've got to adopt a new mindset and shift the culture to be more amenable to what people coming into the workplace are looking for.

I also think there needs to be an investment in lawyers throughout the lifecycle process. So mentor and sponsor programs, sponsorships particularly for women are incredibly important. But they need to be more formalized; there's a lot of mentor programs where the mentor and the mentee meet, they go to lunch, the mentor says how's it going, the mentee says okay great, and then they talk about something else. We need to have something a little bit more formalized; what are the obligations, what are the responsibilities? We need to be tracking people and looking at people at different stages through the employee lifecycle. Another thing that's really pertinent for firms is to look at their interview processes, to look at their evaluation processes, to look at their promotion and compensation processes.

How do you strip bias from those processes? Because that's something that is especially important, even for law firms, because traditionally (with the law firm model) you are evaluated on your billable hours and your business development. Well, there is bias-inherent in that. So how do you look at other measures of value? How do you look at what somebody else is doing? How are you rewarding somebody for supporting a diverse lawyer? How do you integrate that into your employee lifecycle processes? I think that that's something that law firms need to look at and examine as part of the shift.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:05] I think that kind of brings me to my last topic, which is building a different culture; building a culture where everyone can feel like they could be their true, authentic selves. Where they can bring their whole selves into the office. And I think that's just harder when you're working in a place where you're the only one (or perhaps a handful of people) that looks like you or share similar backgrounds and life experiences. So thoughts about building a more inclusive, or shifting the firm culture?

Robyn Pollack: [00:24:37] Yeah, I think all of these things move in that direction. And I tell people that we work with that change takes time. It's like turning the Titanic around, again, law firms are at the top of that list for having trouble with change. I think shifting culture is primarily a top-down initiative, and then a bottom-up secondarily to that. So I think that if there is a visible commitment from firm leadership.

And again it's not that check the box let's just throw it up against the wall. It is a rollout of a strategic plan and a strategic initiative. Look we've done this assessment, we've talked to you, we've interviewed you, we brought in a third party to figure out what's going on. And here's what we've identified, here are the priorities that we set, and here's what we're going to do about it over the next one year, three years, five years. And here's how we are going to accomplish a shift in making everybody here feel valued and trusted and respected and part of it. And everybody's part of the process, but I think that top-down, real willful commitment is where it needs to start. Because that's where culture is really set, from the top.

[00:26:02] And then there are ways to really roll out organizational management and organizational change; how do you implement a change in an organization, and some of those methodologies need to be used in law firms. With the reminders about what we're doing and the constant weaving of diversity and inclusion and the kind of workplace we want throughout everything that we're doing so that it's not a second thought or it's not something we're trying to correct for or fix, it becomes who we are.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:36] Right, it has to be more than the thing.. it often just feels like with a lot of law firms, you have a diversity and inclusion specialist or person in charge of managing it, and it almost feels like they say, "Well, we hired that person over there. She is supposed to fix all of our diversity and inclusion issues." It's like no, that's not exactly how it works. I've also been on planning committees and different things where they wanted me to be on the planning committee because I'm going to go and find some stickers that are non-white. And it's like no, sorry.

Robyn Pollack: [00:27:22] Well it's true, and you can't just do one-off training. A lot of firms and companies think, well we brought this speaker in and she talked about unconscious bias, and okay we're good now; we've got unconscious bias covered. And that's simply not true; that's not how people learn. People learn over time, people learn experientially, people learn by doing. And you can't just have a one-off thing and expect everything to be fixed, and I think that's another shortfall in the diversity space. People think, oh yeah we had a program on that. Well, one program isn't enough.

[00:28:06] I think that with some of the backlash you heard with Starbucks; they had this one program, but what does that do? Where do you go from there? So, you need something that's integrative, you need something that's consistent, you need something that is thoughtful and over time, in order to be effective. And we're not going to see those numbers change, going back to when you graduated law school so many years ago and it seemed like it should be fixed by now, and it isn't. It's because people aren't looking at it like a business imperative that needs a plan and a strategy, they're looking at it as, "Oh yeah, that person over there, she takes care of our diversity." But what does that mean? And nobody really knows.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:50] Right. And also I think oftentimes for the white male managing partner, this is not a conversation that's easy for him to get involved in. I think there is some level of discomfort, or if he's sitting around the room and saying, "Well we have a diversity and inclusion issue," I think there may be raised eyebrows like, well what do you care? You're not part of that group. So thoughts about how people, let's say the white male lawyer that actually does have the power to change some of these issues, how they can be better allies? How can they get more involved in making these shifts?

Robyn Pollack: [00:29:36] Yeah, I think they have to use that power; I think that's the first thing. I think one of the hurdles that we need to overcome is that stereotypical white, male, middle-aged managing partner who knows he needs to have a diversity initiative so that he can go on to on-campus recruiting and answer that question. But you've got to actually understand that while the status quo might be great for you, it's really not good for the long-term sustainability and health of that law firm. I think people in those positions of power need to think about what do you want your legacy to be? In terms of how do you want to impact the firm going forward because you've got the ability to do that. I also think that access to those leaders, we talked about sponsorship a little while ago, but having diverse attorneys to have access to more powerful male leaders in a firm, is huge.

Those are the people that should be serving as mentors and sponsors to people because they are the ones that still have the power. So I think that's a great way for them to be allies; to actually take a couple of people under their wing and mentor and sponsor them. It makes a difference. When I look at many of the women that are successful lawyers, all of them will tell you that they had a man who helped them; a man who touted them in meetings when they weren't there, who made sure that they had exposure to clients, who made sure they had stretch assignments. So I think that's a really important way that quintessential white male partner to be an ally and to be able to help.

And to understand. When we talk about unconscious bias and the things that hold diverse attorneys back, we really need to implement a "stop, drop, and roll" mechanism; we need to think about what it is that you are about to do or say. How is that going to be perceived by the person you're interacting with, and do you need to revise that? And revise what you are thinking, and say it or do it in a different way? You really have to think until it becomes more natural. So another to be a good ally.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:17] I think that's a great place to wrap things up. Robyn, for the folks that are interested in learning more about your work, where is the best place for them to do that?

Robyn Pollack: [00:32:28] You can certainly go to our website, which is www.trellisconsultingllc.com. So check us out, there's a place if you want further information to e-mail, and we're happy to talk. We're really looking to help firms and companies in this endeavor, that is our goal. We talk about being uncomfortable and having these difficult conversations, that's 100% true but that's how you make progress. And we're here to help facilitate those conversations and make the process of turning the Titanic around easier for people. We're very much about that culture shift, and truly believe that this is the future of firms and organizations, and really want to help push that forward.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:23] Robyn, thank you so much for being with me today, I really appreciate it.

Robyn Pollack: [00:33:27] Thank you so much for having me Jeena, it was a lot of fun.

Closing: [00:33:34] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Rhonda Magee on to talk about utilizing mindfulness to help combat biases.

Rhonda Magee is Professor of Law at the University of San Francisco. She teaches Mindfulness-Based Interventions, and is a student of awareness and compassion practices from a range of traditions. She is a facilitator of mindful and compassionate communication, and a Fellow of the Mind and Life Institute. Rhonda's teachings and writings support compassionate problem-solving and presence-based leadership in a diverse world, and humanizing approaches to education. She sees awareness practices as keys to personal, interpersonal and collective transformation in the face of challenge and opportunity. The author of numerous articles on mindfulness in legal education, Rhonda is a thought and practice leader in the emerging fields of contemplative legal and higher education.

Topics Covered

• Rhonda kicks the episode off by diving into her past as a mindful lawyer and why having a mindfulness practice is a must working in such a high-conflict field as law, especially in terms of constant and consistent self-growth.
• How utilizing mindfulness practices help develop and condition our faculties around social justice, social bias, and working with identity-based biases. She talks on practical ways that we can combat the apathy we see and can respond with, such as the STOP practice.
• Tips and tools for maintaining a consistent mindfulness practice and mindfulness in Legal Education and Professional Development
• Concrete examples of using mindfulness to work on our own implicit biases. As socially embodied beings, we are both signaling and sending signals that people are reading and perceiving differently. It is our responsibility to be mindful of this, and reflect on how we can better engage our own identities.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

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Transcript

Rhonda Magee: [00:00:03] Just simply engaging in mindfulness on a regular basis can broaden our capacity to be with these changes with more grace, with more intentionality, with more skillfulness over time.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am so happy to have Rhonda McGee. She is a professor of law at the University of San Francisco. She teaches mindfulness-based interventions. As a student of awareness and compassion practices from a range of traditions, Rhonda's teaching and writing support compassion problem solving and presence-based leadership in a diverse world, and humanizing approaches to education. She sees awareness practices as keys to personal, interpersonal and collective transformation in the face of challenge and opportunity.

[00:01:21] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a very short six-minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety as a preview for my new course Mindful Pause. You can check it out over at my website JeenaCho.com, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Rhonda. Rhonda, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Rhonda Magee: [00:01:49] Thank you so much, Jeena. It's beautiful to talk with you and to hear a little bit more about the other work that you're engaged in again.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:58] Yeah. Rhonda, it'd be great to start with just a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do.

Rhonda Magee: [00:02:05] Sure. So primarily my main job is I'm a law professor, so I teach law at the University of San Francisco. I have been for 20 years, and I love the opportunity that that work gives me to engage with new entrants into our profession, and to be constantly a part of the process by which we have real conversations about what it means to be a lawyer, about particular aspects of law, and its impact in the world today. So that's my main job, but in addition to that I teach mindfulness.

[00:02:48] My mindfulness teaching grew out of my mindfulness practice, which for me started many, many years ago. I guess kind of more or less formally in the way that I practice it now, I could date the start to around 1993. Which is a year that I graduated law school, came out to San Francisco, and just realized I needed a little bit more than the cognitive and skills-focused set of tools to really get myself grounded in the way that I felt I wanted to be, to begin practicing law. So I started practicing mindfulness then, and the work that I've done to integrate that into my work teaching law and then teaching other populations the tools of mindfulness has grown from there.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:44] Why is it important for lawyers to be mindful or to practice mindfulness?

Rhonda Magee: [00:03:52] Well I know this is what your audience reflects on all the time. So just to take it from my own personal perspective, I went to law school at the University of Virginia and practiced law here in San Francisco at a firm that like many firms, had a number of attorneys working on a range of different types of practice areas, in a range of areas. It was a civil litigation practice. I actually did a fair amount of insurance coverage while I was there, but dabbled in other things and I practiced for about four and a half years. And based on that experience, which of course is somewhat dated now, but based on that experience as well as my interactions with people in the practice today, not the least of which is my relationship with my partner (who is a law partner at a law firm today, and we've been together for many years), so I'm aware based on my own experience and my own engagement with lawyers in the practice right now, in a variety of settings. That brings me an awareness of the ways that, first of all law practice is as we all know holistically challenging. It is a beautiful profession for many reasons, not the least of which is that it calls upon us to really be as effective as we can in the midst of engaging with people who, in many cases, are at their most distressed and vulnerable, in some ways weakened by circumstances in their own lives or the intersection of their own lives with the legal system in some way.

[00:05:49] So because we are so often called in or called upon to really bring our knowledge, skills, and values from our law practice, our legal education, and our experience in the world as lawyers, to bear on these high-conflict, high-intensity situations. And in such scenarios, having a range of different skills at our capacity is essential to number one: effective lawyering, right? Really accessing well that which we can do to support people. So thinking well about the application of law and policy to a particular problem, but also recognizing that there are values and ethical considerations that might be brought to bear, and sensing into the ways that our own human biases or orientations or limitations might also be getting in the way. Having the ability to do all of those things at once is really highly sophisticated work, and really does call upon us. I think as we all know who've done any practice, to really have commitments that involve self-development at progressively more profound levels over the course of our careers. And I myself have not found any more effective set of practices to support that kind of 360 ongoing commitment to personal development than the practices of mindfulness. And in that I know I echo people like Michael Zimmerman, former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the state of Utah, who is a colleague of mine in this work. Who has often said as well from his perspective as a lawyer, an appellate court lawyer, a judge, a deep practitioner of mindfulness, the kind of skills and the way of being with reality if you will, that is supported by mindfulness practice are really THE skills; the greatest support we have seen for the development of these kinds of skills for lawyering.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:37] Yeah, I find it really difficult to try to explain to someone that doesn't have a mindfulness practice, to explain what all the benefits are. They think a lot of us sort of find our way into mindfulness and meditation because we're really stressed or there is some discontent. But then what it ends up opening up is this whole new way of engaging with the world, and it's not really easy to explain what that is. Like when you start a yoga practice and you notice all of these ripple benefits that you weren't anticipating.

Rhonda Magee: [00:09:21] Yeah I agree, and so I do think we can talk about some of the benefits that we have experienced and that research has shown. And of course, at the end of the day I think that when people (as you suggested) take that yoga class or engage in any kind of suggested practice, via exercising or taking time for themselves, engaging in mindfulness and the allied disciplines of mindfulness, we learn from that experience in ways that maybe supplements what we've learned through external reports and testimonials. But for me, just starting with the simple practice of developing more comfort with being with the body and whatever state it's in in any given moment. For many of us, it's hard to be actually present to what we are feeling and what we're experiencing.

[00:10:29] And so for that reason, number one mindfulness can seem more difficult and counterproductive, especially if we've spent a lot of our lives as many of us have, kind of running away from or finding ways to distract ourselves from those things, and even positive ways to distract ourselves by working hard, by focusing on trying to do good. But at the end of the day, if we each pause and take a look, for many of us we can see that we've spent some time in our lives going away from what it feels like to be here now, to being present to what we're feeling, what we are sensing. We don't quite maybe have words for sensations in the body that we might not want to give time to, and we're all differently oriented and conditioned around the capacity to be with what is arising. So for me for example, I grew up in a home where I really didn't feel a lot of support for just allowing feelings to exist. Even sickness, I grew up in a home where everybody was working and there was a felt sense that we didn't have a lot of time to even get well when you needed to. So even I realized at a certain point I'd internalized from just that, a way of being critical with myself, even when I wasn't feeling well. Pushing, pushing myself so hard. Hard, harsh language, internal language for myself, just at the moment when I might need most to just allow myself the time that the body needs to heal.

[00:12:19] So I find that that's not an uncommon kind of way of having a relationship with ourself, that those of us who are productive in the world and making things happen; we can have these ways of relating with our own self and our own experience which make it hard for us to adjust. First of all, to give ourselves time and to kind of turn away from our habits of pushing away what we're feeling and move and pushing through it, when mindfulness invites you to engage with those realities and those feelings and sensations differently; to actually allow them in, create some space around them. And so, given the ways many of us are conditioned not to be present, to not give myself time when I needed it, to see that maybe as a little bit of a weakness, this work is kind of counterintuitive or certainly countercultural. If we look at the particular cultures we've been raised in or we've helped create to be successful for ourselves, so it doesn't surprise me that many people in law find it difficult to actually practice the kind of opening invitations of mindfulness, like creating space to just sit in silence for a few minutes each day.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:48] Right, and also we as a legal culture really looked down upon that. I remember being a very young attorney and being told things like, leave your emotions at the door; there is actually no room for your feelings in this room. And it wasn't until much later, once I started really getting into my law practice, it's like no actually the majority of what brings clients into the office is because they're experiencing emotional pain. And we're so driven by emotions, you know that's what propels the action. So if we can really understand our client's emotions we're better able to help and serve them, but we can't do that if we're not emotionally intuned with ourselves.

Rhonda Magee: [00:14:38] Exactly, exactly. And I agree with you entirely and have seen that in my own practice life and also in the work that I've done in academia. So I've been socialized into two different quite formidable professions, law on the one hand and academia on the other. And that is, I know you have experienced as well. You know, in academia there's a similar set of norms. So I just find that all over our society, wherever we are, when you get into relatively high-status environments and professions, it's not uncommon for there to be a corresponding set of norms that minimize the importance of being present to emotion, allowing space for emotion.

[00:15:29] Your story reminded me of a story I received as a young law professor, which was very similar in that one of the mid-level professors who had just successfully obtained tenure was giving me some advice and counsel about how to conduct myself in the classroom. And one of the things he said to me was, "I have a practice of not smiling at the students for the first six weeks of class" And he had a whole story for how this was a way of instilling a certain sense of faux intimidation; an environment that he thought was somehow conducive to the kind of order he wanted to be in the class. Then after the six weeks or so you can loosen up and allow a smile. But a smile is an indication as a sort of a signal of a certain kind of emotional experience that most of us experience on a regular basis, if we're just allowing life to hit us. Humor happens, joy happens, connection happens, and smiles normally will happen. But to have that be a norm that's being passed on from law professor to law professor in some setting.. And thank goodness I think it's less so today than it used to be, but certainly 20 years ago when I started it was certainly not considered at all odd for this junior mid-level professor to tell me that this was one of the tactics he had adopted to successfully get him where he was. So yeah, just to sit with that. That is a deep indication of the kind of culture that you're talking about.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:29] Yeah and speaking of culture, I know you've written and done a lot of work around social justice and our implicit bias, and how mindfulness can help us to be more aware and to start to shift, and really use mindfulness as a tool for uncovering our own bias. Tell us about that.

Rhonda Magee: [00:17:57] Well yeah, thank you for asking because I do think all of us can see (if we're paying attention at all) how we're struggling as individuals, as institutions, organizations, workplaces, the larger community and society, to just deal more effectively with the challenges of living in diverse and changing times. So living with the changes of our demographics, different populations coming together with different cultures, and a time of other rising anxieties right. Everything from climate change to what seems like endless war. So we as humans are just being challenged on many levels, and our history tells us that one of the ways we are tempted to respond to such challenges has to do with a kind of a reversion to the dynamics of tribalism. We know from neurobiology that our bodies are formed to respond to perceived threats in one of a few deeply ingrained ways; to flee right, the flight response. And we do that as much as we can, we do those things in explicit and implicit, obvious and subtle ways. We flee situations where we're feeling some sense of threat, so fleeing can look like just sitting in the space but not contributing anymore. Or everything from that to literally leaving and never coming back. So flight is one way we respond to these kinds of threats. Fighting, right? Just figuring out an “us versus them” kind of, who's on my team, who isn't on my team.

[00:20:03] Polarizing is another common response. So the flight or fight syndrome much written about by social biologists and other neurobiologists, neuroscientists, really to help us understand what's happening to us cognitively and holistically when we perceive threats in our environments. And others have helped us understand that there are other options available to us, like tending and befriending. But to choose to tend and befriend, to not flee, to know that there are other options often involves a more sophisticated engagement with our capabilities. So moving from what many people call the early human aspects of the developed brain, the reptilian kind of brain and cortex and into the neocortex; the later evolved part of our brain that assists us in making these more sophisticated decisions, responses to these stimuli in our world. Including the kinds of threats, we perceive when we're looking at say, demographic change in the midst of all kinds of conflicts that are being presented to us and coming at us at what seems like warp speed in our culture today. And mindfulness can help really, by assisting us in regulating the emotional reactivity that can come with a sense of concern or anxiety. It may or may not be consciously perceived as a sense of threat, but the body might be sensing some anxiety. As we know, research has shown for example that when analysts, demographers report on the changing demographics in our time, the "browning" if you will of America, the fact that we are becoming more comprised of minority or minority populations here in America. The percentage of Americans who are for example identified as and identify themselves as white over time has been lessening, and is predicted to lessen in the next generation or so in a way that will be apparent to us and may call on us to meet each other around difference in different ways, and I think it's already doing so. Research has shown that just to hear about those changes can create a sense of anxiety for people. And so right then and there then, if the body is physiologically reacting, even if we don't think cognitively that we feel that to be a bad thing or that we are necessarily biased against these changes or any one individual who might be seen as a reflection of such changes in our environment, our bodies often are signaling something different. So mindfulness is just one of the ways that we can develop greater emotional intelligence, a greater capacity to notice different ways that our bodies might be signaling anxiety or discomfort. And again, through mindfulness and the allied disciplines of mindfulness, the reflections on our values, reflections on the insights that arise from mindfulness, that we are actually profoundly interconnected. So to the degree that we see ourselves as these isolated beings, us against the world. One of the things that mindfulness can do is help us to sense our way into our inherent interconnectedness. The breath alone by itself, for example, reminds us we don't create the air that we breathe.

[00:24:29] We depend on each other profoundly for that air to be of a quality that we can all survive and thrive in. And those kinds of subtle insights are part of the way the modality, the methodology for how simply engaging in mindfulness on a regular basis can broaden our capacity to be with these changes with more grace, with more intentionality, with more skillfulness overtime.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:07] Yeah, and you and I were chatting before the show started about how mindfulness helps us to.. Especially now, the amount of information and data and news, we're so inundated yet there is a sense of a lack of intimacy with one another, that sense connection. It's like we talk at each other in sound bites. On a very practical level, thoughts about how to stay connected and engaged and aware of what's happening out in the world, but also not so sucked into it where it becomes harmful or toxic?

Rhonda Magee: [00:25:58] Mmm, yeah. There are many practical tools we can use that I've discovered through mindfulness. One is I'm sure your listeners are probably quite familiar with, this practice called the S.T.O.P. practice, with the acronym "S-T-O-P." But it is really aimed at encapsulating how it is that through our mindfulness practice, deepen our commitment to be more proactive about how we move through the world, and to giving ourselves the support we need as we need it. This particular practice is an example of just what I mean by that, so it's a S.T.O.P. practice, it is again the acronym "S-T-O-P."

[00:26:54] And with the "S", it is a suggestion that when we are feeling the first signs that we notice that we are feeling any kind of overwhelm, we literally take the invitation to stop. The "S" in "S-T-O-P" really just means stop. By that we mean pause, and this dovetails well with your current new project around the pause, but really just to pause in the middle of what it is that we're doing. Even if ever so briefly, right? This can all take place within seconds, if not less. But we just take a moment, if we are scrolling through our email, noticing some level of reactivity and about to respond or react. Send that email off in the state of the reactivity, send that tweet off in the state of the reactivity. We have so many technological ways that can make manifest the way in which in real time we struggle. But mindfulness is about giving us a bit of an assist. But it does require orienting ourselves to say, we will take the time to give ourselves the assist. So it is saying, bring mindfulness to the first signs that we are about to be in a state of some kind of overwhelm, and in that moment to stop; to pause, to then move to the "T". And I'm doing it instinctively right now. Take a deep breath, take a cautious breath. Within which we can, just by doing that we invite the sort of neurobiological support that comes with the conscious engagement with a simple, intentional breath.

[00:28:56] We know that if we allow ourselves to engage in deep breathing, we naturally engage in deep breathing as a means of calming ourselves. And again, neurobiologists can tell us that we are formed, our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous systems, that part of us is profoundly conformed to assist us in calming ourselves when we are distressed. So a deep breath in the face of whatever it is that is causing us anxiety, is a natural and nature-approved way of assisting us and calming down. So take that conscious, intentional breath, that's the "T". And then "O". "O" is simply to observe what's happening as you breathe. You open up to sensing into the state of the body and the mind, this sort of embodied being that we are in that moment. So you observe the quality of the breath that you just sort of interrupted a bit while taking a deeper breath. Where we're breathing very high in the chest, shallow breathing we know is associated with a stress response. So just noticing, observing, what's the quality of my being in this moment? Perhaps starting with the breath, which is where we are already kind of landed as we engage in the "T", so "T-O", we are observing what's the quality of that breath? What's the quality of the rest of my being at this moment? Am I feeling the ground beneath me?

[00:30:40] So really, you observe from the breath the whole body, perhaps dropping down to the feet. Feeling the support of the ground that is beneath you that we might not have been in touch within the moments prior to engaging in just this brief "S-T-O-P" practice. But the ground is there, we are supported. So allowing an observation of, alright where my feet right now, how is my own being in this moment? Kind of allowing myself in my embodiment to support myself in this moment. So we can sometimes notice if we are hunched over, if we are leaning forward or racing forward in a way that really doesn't provide necessarily the most grounded way of handling a distressing situation. So to allow an observation of what's the state of the body; what's my posture right now? What's happening my mind, what thoughts are coming to me? So thoughts, what emotions, what other related sensations? So that "O" is a point of allowing a space for observing what it is right, that is characteristic of this moment of distress for us. And from there, really inviting a shift, knowing as we do if we practice mindfulness a little bit, if we study mindfulness a little bit, at what I call the allied disciplines of studying about mindfulness: reading about it, engaging in practice with others, looking at your ethical commitments for doing mindfulness or practicing mindfully. Once we pause enough to observe what's going on, and then if we have been engaging in mindfulness in this more wholesome way, ideally then some of the benefits of that can arise as we pause, as we observe what's going on, and are there to support us in consciously shifting into a more skillful way of moving forward.

[00:32:47] So then with the "P", it's "S-T-O-P", we reflect on how it is that we might want to respond rather than react. So if we're just racing in a way that maybe we can walk with purpose and support ourselves with each step, if we are about to send off that email maybe we can think a little bit about the sender or senders.. If we're about to send off that tweet, just pause to think about the different audiences that might receive that, and just how they might receive it. We may decide to send it anyway, but we've done it then though from a place of deeper ground, of having reflected on it from a variety of sides in a way that can prepare us for whatever might be to come. So the "P" then is about a bit of processing and then proceeding with intentionality, based on having allowed ourselves the support of mindfulness as we go.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:48] Yeah, that's such a simple and beautiful practice that we can all incorporate into our entire life. So I know you've been meditating for a long time, how do you keep your meditation practice going? This is something that I hear a lot of (I guess it also applies to nonlawyers too) us struggle with, is just you keeping a consistent formal practice of meditation going. So tips and tools on maintaining the practice?

Rhonda Magee: [00:34:25] Well it's a great question, it's never not timely. For me, it really is about making daily if not moment to moment commitments about staying mindful; writing in and supporting myself to be mindful. So that is about, again asking myself really specifically, what do I want to do to support myself in being mindful and being able to draw on mindfulness as a support throughout my day. How do I make that happen? I make that happen by making time to commit to mindfulness before I need it, in a certain sense. The idea that we can just listen to people talk about mindfulness or read about mindfulness, but not actually practice mindfulness and then have it as a resource for us that is part of our being, is a little bit of a false way of really understanding what mindfulness is about. We really do need to practice. And even though I've been at it for years, I know I need daily practice.

[00:35:49] So it starts with again a commitment. One of my teachers says, a way that he counsels students who are struggling with the commitment to practice is to ask at the end of each day. Because we can look at our day and say, wow I could have used a little bit more mindfulness today, I'm feeling depleted. Where was the practice when I needed it today? That recognition that we needed can then be a support for saying, alright what will I do tomorrow to give myself time to deepen my mindfulness practice. Can I commit to getting up tomorrow? Again, each of us may have different ways of doing the practice. For me, starting the day with mindfulness is important. Sometimes that means a long sit.

[00:36:43] And I don't mean hours, but for me long given the way my work and day often moves, a long sit is 20, 25, 30 minutes. And some nights I begin with a commitment that tomorrow I'm going to do a long sit. One of my teachers says, "It's not enough to just ask am I going to do it? It's to really say, am I really going to do it? What time am I going to get up to do it?" Ideally, we may have already identified a space, a place where we engage in our practice. And so this is about, again I talk a lot in the work that I do about this thing, that executive functioning of the brain; the decision maker. The part of the brain that can actually help us with our good intentions. The neocortex, we enlist that when we ask ourselves am I really going to do it, what's my plan for doing it? We know that when we take those kinds of extra steps, we're just that much more likely to follow through the next day.

[00:37:47] So that's one way to sort of allow the sense that we're maybe not quite making time for it to prompt us, to deepen our commitments. And that may look differently for each of us, it might look different for each of us. But it might look like saying, I've said I want to do a regular daily practice that begins with a morning sit. I will do it tomorrow. I will do it for.. If 20 or 30 minutes is too much for you on the day that you have given the state that you're in; you're totally exhausted, you're not sure you can do 20 minutes or 30 or more. But you might be able to really easily say, yes I can do ten minutes. I can do ten minutes, and tomorrow I will do ten minutes. So those kinds of agreements to be mindful, and to kind of plan and mindfulness. It's the discipline of saying, I have a commitment, I'm going to fulfill it. And knowing that there's some Momentive benefit; there's a momentum that can be established if you do that one day and you see some benefit, and then you do it again the next day. And I caution this in these conversations about staying with the practice, that some days it won't feel like yes I see a benefit. And those are the days when we have to say, but we're going to stick with it because we made a promise to ourselves; I made a promise to myself. I can stick with it, I can do this regularly. For some of us just starting out, we might say I can do this regularly for a week; I can do it regularly for 28 days, 30 days. And even if I'm feeling like I'm not sure, I can keep at it.

[00:39:36] But at the same time, recognizing that there are ways that we must be our own best friend and counsel as we do this. And it is true that mindfulness is not necessarily for every person, or for all aspects of our distress that we're feeling. And there are times when actually we know that by just sitting, we know that we're spiraling into a little bit more distress than we can handle at that moment. And so, of course everything I say, and I'm sure Jeena it's true for you as well. We're always reminding everyone who listens, everyone who would engage in the practice to be your own best supporter and guide and counsel. If you need to take a break, if you need to get some other kind of support or a counselor or other, that is what you need at that moment. Do it and then come back perhaps to mindfulness when you're ready.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:43] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really important point to highlight, that there may be situations and circumstances where mindfulness may not be like the cure-all. I think sometimes it's sold in that way, but definitely get the help you need for sure.

Rhonda Magee: [00:41:10] And at the same time, there are degrees of struggle. So if your struggle is I'm just feeling bored with this, that's one where you might say well just notice it and investigate it a little bit. But don't give up on the promise that you made that you're going to stick with it long enough to see what might be the benefits, if you can get through the period of almost predictable resistance to it. It is, you're doing something that's completely different from what you normally do. Know that there's going to be a period or periods that may recur of just reaction to the mindfulness, I don't want to be mindful, I don't want to sit. But just to let that be; maybe allow a little bit of levity, a little bit of, "Here I am in my reactivity against mindfulness, but I'm going to sit. I'm going to do it." Just letting yourself go through what we all go through as we develop our relationship with our practice.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:14] It's so funny that you mention boredom, because that was literally the thing that I sat with for the first two years of my practice. And I remember my teacher being like, well what does boredom actually feel like? And I was like, I don't know, it's really unpleasant. I don't know what it feels like. And he was like, well why don't you go and explore it. Like actually just sit and explore what boredom feels like. And I was like, ugh fine damn it. I was a resistant student, like most lawyers are. But it was fascinating, because there are lots of interesting things about boredom. And what I found even more interesting was that sensation of boredom would reoccur everywhere in my life, but I never noticed it. So it was really interesting to go, here I am standing in the grocery line and there is boredom, and how do I be with boredom? I reach for my phone. We all walk around with this pacifier now, and it really shifted my relationship with how I relate to digital technology. It's like, what do I do entertain myself? And do I always need to entertain myself when I'm bored, or can I just be with boredom. All of these interesting things that you'll learn, especially when you're resisting against something in your practice.

Rhonda Magee: [00:43:32] That's true, right? It's an ongoing revelation, right? That's what I do when I'm bored, and I do it all the time it seems like, it's coming up everywhere.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:46] So Rhonda, before we wrap things up I do want to have a more concrete discussion about how do we use mindfulness to work when our implicit bias? And for the folks that are listening to you, they may not know that you're black. And for the folks that are listening, they may not know that I'm Asian. Sometimes being a woman of color, we have very different experiences going through the world. So I'm wondering if you can give some of the tools on mindfulness, as a way that we can work on ourselves. For the listeners out there that are either people of color or women or in some group of minority in some way. Or if they're the white guy and they're wanting to take part in this conversation but aren't sure how to. And I think that can also be a really uncomfortable place to be as well. And I realize that's a huge question, so I'll let you take it any direction that feels good to you.

Rhonda Magee: [00:45:01] Well it is a great, huge, meaty question. And of course, like all great, huge, meaty questions, I will really only be able to invite some reflection that is really just pointing toward what I hope will be ongoing ruminations, thoughts, reflections, ways of continuing the conversation that we do collectively and individually from here. So I would say that mindfulness for me is a way of deepening my experience with reality. And what reality is is always changing, and my reality (as you alluded to in your question Jeena) may be different from yours in a given moment because of the way that our reality, the sense that we have of what is real is based on perceptions that we have as we move through the world. So we are constantly encountering stimuli from the environment, we're meeting people, we're seeing people. People are engaging us, we're reading about incidents in the headlines, comments are being made in a meeting that suddenly trigger some sense that perhaps you've experienced or witnessed a micro aggression. One of these sudden, stunning statements that may leave me or some other person feeling disrespected, or rendered an outsider in some space.

[00:46:44] So these are the kinds of things that are the stimuli that we're experiencing as we move through the world. And each of us experiences these things differently, and partly as a function of the ways that we are differently embodied in different time and space. So, depending on the context that we're in; if it's a context in which we all look very much the same, we've all been raised to think very similarly, that's going to be a different kind of space than if we are in a space where it's that but then now someone's entered who physically looks different. Maybe of a different race, maybe a different gender, the intersection of those two is very profound. Maybe have a different class background. In other words, as socially embodied beings we are both signaling and sending signals that people are reading about who we are and what we know, what we think. People are perceiving and making assumptions and all of that. We do it, and it's been done to us all the time. And that comes with being a human being in a social environment. And so bringing mindfulness to the way we engage with our own identities and the way that our perceptions about others in the world may be shaped by the particularities of our own embodied experience, which are very different perhaps than the lived experience of others in that space. Just bringing mindfulness to the fact that our experience is just our experience; it's just one part of a big, complicated, beautiful story about who we are in this moment together. That we might tell and retell with ever increasing complexity and capacity to hold complexity, if we are given the time and opportunity.

[00:48:55] Generally we're not given much time and opportunity. So a lot of what can happen at the intersection of identity and some kind of suffering happens in the space of what we do when we don't have a lot of time, but we're operating on a little bit of automatic pilot. We meet someone; we prise them before we even consciously do it. Cognitive scientists tell us that we make perceptions about one another that key into race and intersect race with gender, and perceptions we have of class based on the way perhaps someone is dressed or the way they speak. What kinds of accents people have or don't have. We evaluate these things at a subconscious level before thought even arises around it. So part of what we're learning, if we look at the cognitive sciences, helps us understand how mindfulness practice can assist us in these areas. We are often operating from the place of that automatic reactivity; that automatic way. I see this person, I put this person in this category, and I respond to this person in that way based on that. Mindfulness can help disrupt that automatic processing. I've written, and others have written, about research studies that give us reason to be hopeful; actual, real reason to be hopeful that mindfulness can assist us in just that part of the problem. The problem of automatic application of the preconceptions we have about each other, based on notions of identity, stories about whose identities matter and what types of spaces and places; we all carry these. We can't not have them, having grown up in a world where narratives about who matters and what groups matter where and why are constantly being consumed and presented to us. So, of course, we have imbibed these biases. We imbibe the culture's preferences for different types of bodies and people and cultures and different spaces. So that's always a part of what we ourselves bring to a space.

[00:51:09] I know for myself, growing up in the south in a part of the country which had whites and blacks and African-Americans and Caucasians. And those are terms that we created to label people, and yet we know what they mean when we use them. Because we've all been trained to use them. So mindfulness is about deepening our capacity to understand all the different ways we all are brought into a world in which identities are constantly being constructed and reconstructed, and we are acting on each other and with ourselves in ways that reflect these notions. And the problem comes when (well there are many problems that can come from that) what the social psychologists called schema, these ways we have of categorizing the world and moving through the world based on those categories. They're really effective in enhancing efficiency and moving through quickly. The example I often use is we have a cognitive schema for a chair, such that when we see something that looks like it's got a flat bottom or a seated area and four legs, we know that if we're tired we can sit on it and not have to worry about whether or not it'll support us in that activity. We don't want to have to every time we encounter a chair be like, wait what is that? Let me do a test on that. So we get that, we can work with a schema for a chair and move through the world in a way that is supported by that. The problem is when we use similarly reductionist schema for people. I mean, to have a schema for an Asian-American woman and then to say every time I meet.. And often we have these and we've not consciously interrogated them. We've just received them because of stereotypes and film and media, stories we've heard from people who went overseas and came back with stories.

[00:53:08] I mean there are all kinds of different ways that we imbibe these stereotypes. We may or may not have made them conscious, interrogated them. And so when we meet a person who we think embodies those characteristics, those stereotypes are operating already; before we have a chance to really be mindful about whether or not they should, or if we would want them to if we have choice. And so mindfulness can get us regularly engaged. Regularly is the key. This is something that for me, I see this as a profound aspect of what it means to be mindful. Because so much of our everyday suffering is mediated through the particular embodiments that we live in. So really, not to see mindfulness and identity and social justice as a side topic, but really to see oh we're just talking about bringing mindfulness to everyday life and lived experience. And not failing to name that we all have lived experience that's characterized by race, characterized by gender, people's notions, our notions of class. These are all already in the mix. So bringing mindfulness more intentionally to bear on those aspects of our own experience, how we began. If you grew up in the south like I did, you may not have met very many Asian, identified Asian, diasporic people before. You might not have heard a lot of language from different Asian countries before, in your everyday life. And you move to a place like California as I did, and suddenly hearing different languages is new. And we all know that again, the human body being what it is, we often don't react so well to every new environment, every new experience.

[00:55:01] We often are sort of challenged when we meet the new. So mindfulness can help us notice, I am (in a way that I didn't predict) reacting to having these languages around me; I'm not comfortable. I need to pause and notice what's happening. I am meeting something new; I am having a kind of reaction to it that would suggest I might need to work on this. This might be an area of work for me. So that's really just one of the micro ways that mindfulness can help. I talk about the allied disciplines right, which have to do with committing to being mindful in community. I don't think we would be talking about mindfulness together today if many people before us hadn't realized the importance of practicing with others. So really, you develop by being engaged in practice with others. So it's great to have these podcasts and support for individual practice, but it really is also important to try to find ways of practicing in community when we can. Because it's there that we really do learn on a day-to-day level. How it is that here I am judging this person, because they had this way of responding to this comment that I have now evaluated. And now I've maybe made some other assumptions about this person that are impacting my interaction with this person, all of these sorts of ways that we are human and in community.

[00:56:35] I think if we have a commitment to mindfulness that includes practicing with others, we are always being supported then in deepening our ability to make room to include the so-called other; to learn from others, and to constantly work on ourselves as part of our practice of mindfulness

Jeena Cho: [00:56:58] Right. Yeah, and I often think as a society we made it very convenient not to have to interact with others, whatever that other might like. Even just being a lawyer, it means a good bulk of the people that I interact with are lawyers, or they're at least educated (most of them are highly educated). And they all sort of in this social economic group. So even though I may have friends and people in my life that are different culturally and on other spectrums, but we still have this commonality of being in the legal profession. I think it takes intention to interact with people that are very different from you and come from different life experiences. And also (kind of looping back to what you were saying earlier) there can be this feeling like, well I've never had that happen to me, therefore it couldn't have happened to you. I remember telling someone I like that I walk into a courtroom and the judge looked at me and he just said, "Oh you're the Asian language interpreter." Which by the way, the wording of that is so bizarre. But I and shared that with someone, and he was like, "No, I don't believe it. That didn't happen to you.”

[00:58:25] And I was like, what do you mean it didn't happen to me? But because he could never imagine that ever happening to him. Because he's different than me. And I think it can be this feeling of, well that's not part of my life experience, therefore, it couldn't have happened to you. Or, it couldn't have happened with the frequency in which it's happening to you.

Rhonda Magee: [00:58:47] Right. Or it couldn't have done the harm. Because if somebody says something like that to me, again not knowing the frequency, the cumulative effect, the way it links up with other incidents in our lives, that history. Another person can hear that and say, oh well is that really a big deal? You could easily brush that off. So yeah, mindfulness helps us, and can help us. I do think we need to (as you said) be intentional about this. I don't think this is necessarily an offshoot of mindfulness, because of the ways we're getting trained not to turn toward this aspect in so many other realms of our lives. So we almost have to actually invite an intentional embrace of looking at how it is that we hold the sense of what the real world looks like and is. And how it is necessarily constrained by our own position, experience, limited by that. It's one of the reasons why for me, I kind of see being with others and practicing with others and working with others around these issues as just this great gift that we can have and experience.

[01:00:02] Because we need each other; I need to hear your experiences for me to have a better understanding of the full range of experiences that are causing suffering in the world. And I invite and then hope that there will be others who will be open to hearing mine. So developing the desire, not just the capacity (like I can tolerate it) but knowing that you want that, to really work with being a more mindful human being in the world, is something that I think can come with our practice. But it often needs to be invited intentionally in.

Jeena Cho: [01:00:45] I think that's the perfect note to end on. Rhonda, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom. Thank you for all the good that you do in the world.

Rhonda Magee: [01:00:57] Thank you, and I reflect that 100% back to you Jeena. It's good to be in conversation with you, and I thank you so much for what you're doing and for this chance to be a part of your work today.

Closing: [01:01:14] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Heather Weigler to talk about the importance of prioritizing yourself after motherhood - to be a better you and a better lawyer.

Heather is a lawyer and stand-up comedian in Portland, Oregon. She works for the Oregon Department of Justice as a Senior Assistant Attorney General, regulating charities and their fundraisers. She also serves on her union's executive committee and volunteers with Oregon Women Lawyers and the Campaign for Equal Justice. She got her start in comedy at a fundraiser for Legal Aid and has since performed in Portland, Los Angeles, Palm Springs, and Las Vegas.

Topics Covered

• Recognizing and dealing with post-partum depression and anxiety, and ways to manage through a regiment of wellness and medication.
• What work-life balance really means when re-learning to take care of yourself, and reducing the stigma of taking a step back from work so you can regroup and come back at 110%.
• Finding yourself after motherhood, and how she uses stand-up comedy to be both a better lawyer and a better parent.
• How she went about forgiving herself for being "imperfect."

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Nefra MacDonald on to talk about how awareness of one's emotions can revolutionize your presence and how you communicate with others.

Nefra MacDonald is the Business Development and Strategic Partnership Coordinator at Rocket Matter. After working in various capacities at law firms, corporations, and non-profit organizations, she decided to use her experience to help address the pain points that practicing lawyers feel every day. She currently co-chairs Rocket Matter’s Product Advisory Committee, which serves as a source of targeted feedback for the company’s product improvement strategy. Her passion for wellness has also led to heavy involvement in producing more wellness programming for lawyers, including Rocket Matter’s Legal Wellness Retreat, where I will also be presenting.

Topics Covered

• Nefra talks on how personal hardships changed her path from being a law student working at a firm, to where she is now helping other lawyers balance their life with mindfulness.
• How Kundalini Yoga helped her to be more present, more aware of her emotions, and how she uses that awareness to better control her emotions rather than the opposite. She talks about how she expresses those negative emotions to others and allows herself to feel it rather than bury it deep down.
• Common pain points with lawyers, work/life balance issues, and wellness and mindfulness issues, such as the inability to disconnect from work without feeling anxiety and trying to manage staff.

Find out more on Nefra at:

Twitter
Legal Productivity podcast

Links mentioned:

Rocket Matter's Legal Wellness Retreat- save $100 off registration for the conference with the discount code "JEENALWR18"

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Nefra MacDonald: [00:00:12] I need to show up for myself first, every single day before I can be of service to anyone else.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Today I have Nefra MacDonald, she is the business development and strategic partner coordinator at Rocket Matter, and she has worked in various capacities at law firms, corporations, and non-profit organizations, and she decided to use all of her experiences to help lawyers address their pain points that they feel every day. She is currently the co-chair at Rocket Matter's Product Advisory Committee, which serves as a source of targeted feedback for the company's product improvement strategy. Her passion for wellness has also led her to be heavily involved in producing more wellness programs for lawyers, including Rocket Matter's Legal Wellness retreat, where I will also be a presenter so I'm looking forward to talking about that. And with that, here's Nefra. Nefra, welcome to the podcast.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:01:33] Thank you so much Jeena, it's great to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:36] So I want to just jump right in, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is how'd you decide to go from going to law school to be a lawyer, and to take a different path. So can you share your experience on how you went from going to law school with the intention of becoming a lawyer, to becoming a business development strategist at Rocket Matter.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:02:03] Yeah, so when I decided to go to law school I was actually already working at a law firm; I was working at a local personal injury law firm in South Florida. And I started to see ways that I could benefit other people; I've got all these skills, I'm a really great people person, and being able to take my education and give people access to justice was something that really excited me. So I applied to law school, I got into the University of Miami, I got into their dual degree program for music business, because my dad was a musician. And I thought man, that would also be a great way to help with the family business. So it was so multi-faceted, really exciting time. And then I started my first year, and all of the lawyers that are listening to that, I'm sure you've got your favorite first year memories, probably the first time you got cold-called on or something like that, that sends a shudder through your spine. But for me, that wasn't the most traumatic thing about my first year. A few weeks into my first semester of law school, I found out that my father was diagnosed with lung cancer, pretty late stage. And it was really, really difficult. And his biggest ask of me was, "Just keep going, just keep going; focus on what you have to do there, and I'll focus on what I have to do here." And that worked for a few weeks, and then things started to get really bad as he started to go through treatment.

[00:03:37] He had a heart attack one night after chemo, and it was just one thing after another that his health just continued to deteriorate, for the reasons of the cancer and other things. And it was very hard to stay focused at school, you know I'm getting updates from home in the middle of class. And of course emotions take over, and your classmates are interpreting that as, oh she can't handle law school. And really, in reality if I'm being completely honest, it was like I can't handle this and my life. But I didn't know what to do or what to reach for, I didn't have very good coping mechanisms at the time, and things just started to take their toll. I lost a ton of weight, I was completely anxious all the time, I was shaky and really just depressed. I was in complete auto-pilot, and I knew that if I'm going to make it here, nobody can see these emotions; nobody can see me struggling, I just have to keep going.

And I know that a lot of people can empathize with that feeling, especially in this profession. Showing any sign of weakness, it's an opportunity for opposing counsel to prey on you; you feel like prey. And showing weakness doesn't exactly inspire confidence when you're dealing with clients and people that are paying you to get them a certain result. So how do we build up some of those skills and some of those coping mechanisms to combat that? Well I had no clue, and I didn't really have a whole lot of resources.

[00:06:38] The only resource that was available to me at that time was our school counseling center. So I went to the counseling center and I was seeing a psychologist and a psychiatrist, we came up with a treatment plan and I was a guinea pig. I was on all sorts of medications that weren't really making me productive or focused, I was losing a lot of sleep, all sorts of fun stuff, and just trying to get through classes. So law school in general, those few years were actually really difficult for me. My dad passed away my second year, and things with my family did not get much better after that, things actually were just getting started. So I don't think I was ever fully present during that time. And it wasn't until after I walked across the stage that I realized, maybe this isn't for me; maybe I'm not cut out for this. Maybe this kind of lifestyle is demanding too much of me for where I am right now. And I started to get on the path of taking good care of myself, because I knew that no matter what I decided to do, I needed to just feel better to approach it from a place of clarity. And so I started to dive into some self-help books, I started to work with a life coach who pointed me in the direction of resources that could really help to shift the way that I was approaching getting control of my own life. I'd been living my life for other people for a really long time, and you take on other people's problems.

[00:08:01] And that really distracts from you focusing on what might be coming up for you, and how you show up for yourself. So the biggest lesson I learned out of that time was: A. I never want to get back to that kind of dark place that I was in, and B. I need to show up for myself first every single day, before I can be of service to anyone else. So I just started to dive into tools that could really help me do that. And one thing that has totally changed the way that I live my life and the way that I am mindful and present in the moment is meditation. And I've experimented with all kinds of meditation over the years, most recently I've been diving into Kundalini meditation. Which is a little weird for some people, it was a little weird for me at first too. I mean, the first time I saw somebody doing Breath of Fire and teaching someone how to do it, they were sticking their tongue out of their mouth and panting like a dog, and I was like oh my God there's no way I can do this. But really, you start to feel shifts and it's kind of a great new addiction. It's the healthiest thing that I've done for myself, and I'm more aware now of my emotions than I've ever been. And that awareness helps me to manage them and control them, and not get sucked down the rabbit hole of negative thoughts, or experience periods of really high anxiety or stress. I can really bring myself back to center fairly quickly because I'm so aware of what's happening now.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:32] Yeah, I love that point you made about being aware of your emotions, because I find that so many lawyers are afraid of their emotions. So they just think, oh if I just disconnect and not feel them.. of course you still feel them. It's not like the emotions disappear just because you go, oh it doesn't exist; I'm going to deny its existence. So when you're working on coming more in touch with your emotions through mindfulness and meditation, how did that help you to actually.. because I think one of the things people are afraid of is that they're going to react from that place of emotion. So if you feel anger you're going to react in anger, which is actually very different than allowing yourself to feel it. So how did mindfulness actually help you to become more familiar with your emotions? And then how did that change or shape how you manage and express your emotions to others?

Nefra MacDonald: [00:10:26] Yeah, so when a negative emotion comes up there's a feeling in your body that happens. And when you're doing certain meditations, well most meditations actually, you're bringing awareness not only to your breath, but to the feelings that are coming up in your body. Whether it's pain or discomfort or tightness, or if you're taking really short breaths as opposed to deeper breaths, any sort of illness you might be feeling; you really become so aware of what is happening in your body. And because of that, you know that those things may have an influence on how you react. They may be making you more irritable, and having that time to not judge what's happening but just notice what's happening allows you to also in the day-to-day life notice what's happening without judging it. We're really quick to react because we're being forced to judge something and say this out of it. When you're just taking a step back, being fully present, seeing what might be triggering you in the moment to maybe be angry or upset or cry. And say I'm not going to judge this, but what is this? What is it bringing up for me, and how does this really make me feel?

I know I feel angry, but what else could this be? Especially in the context of interpersonal relationships, like when you're dealing with a boss or a co-worker or opposing counsel or a judge or your client, what else could this be? What could they be going through that's causing them to express themselves in this way, and how can you react from a place of kindness and love? And the thought process seems really long, but actually when you're sitting in that place constantly, at some point in your day (whether it's for six-minute increments, I know Jeena trains her lawyers to do, or 10 minutes or 20 minutes or however long your practice is) when you're practicing, doing that every single day, it's easier to do it moment by moment. To temper those reactions, to not ignore how you're feeling but also just asking yourself to approach it in a different way, and to choose differently than you normally would. And it starts to feel really good, it becomes a part of your practice.

[00:12:41] But getting back to how I got to Rocket Matter, after I started doing some of this deep work I started to ask myself what kind of work I wanted to do. And I fell into a job at a healthcare technology company, and I really loved tech. I loved still being able to do the legal side of things, as far as helping with forming the corporation and doing minutes for board meetings. I worked under an attorney to help with due diligence for acquisitions and all of that really fun stuff. And there were certain parts of it that I really enjoyed, but the environment was very high stress; it was still a lot of the same. And I was also working with people that were not very good for me, they were very toxic people. So those two things were not good, I was still attracting some of that chaotic environment into my life. And so I needed to figure out a way out of that. So I started to think about what I really wanted out of a work environment, what I really wanted out of a job, how I wanted to grow.

And I wanted to work with like-minded people who were passionate about what they do, who really wanted to help people. I wanted to get the opportunity to lead and to teach, and to expand my skills in new ways. And some of my skills, I went to undergrad for broadcast journalism and I really loved public speaking, so I also wanted those kinds of opportunities. And I thought to myself, if it happens it happens, but you never know.

And I was working with a temp agency that I used during law school to find those rare paying jobs, and Rocket Matter had a position open. And so I got the call and it was supposed to be a two-week assignment, and then it got extended to another four weeks, and then our CEO Larry created a position for me. And it was something that they never had before. But I basically get to play a little bit in our product world, where I take feedback from our lawyers and hearing some of the things that they're going through day to day that are super painful, and figuring out how we can take our technology and develop it in a way that it eases that pain point. So they have more time to build, to develop their business, to become more profitable. I also was working in our customer success department, so helping our customers and training them. And I got the really cool experience to go back to my home country (I'm from Trinidad, and I got to go to Trinidad) and train an all-female law firm how to use Rocket Matter. They also wanted to go paperless, so help them develop their paperless protocols. So that was a really cool experience. And then last year I transitioned to our marketing department, where I get to work on our strategic partnerships with integration partners, that can also be really helpful to our clients. And then I also teach our CLE's and webinars every month, I host our podcast occasionally. So I'm getting to use all of these skills that I really love, I've gotten the opportunity to grow, I DO work with like-minded people, and because of my own experience and the things that I've done, I get to bring some wellness aspects to what I do at work.

[00:16:14] I'm the girl at work that's diffusing essential oils and doing meditations at 4:00, but that's who I am and I'm proud of it. And I work at a place that embraces that, so it's been pretty amazing. But there's a lot to be said about what you can do when you approach things from a place of being centered, and what you can actually manifest in your life once you focus on core qualities that you need more of in your life. I've been able to achieve that over time, and be patient and allow it to happen, as opposed to stressing about it. So it's been great, it's been really good.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:00] What are some of the common pain points that you hear from lawyers?

Nefra MacDonald: [00:17:06] Oh man, there are so many.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:08] Maybe we can narrow in on some (and I hate this term) work-life balance issues, and sort of overall wellness or well-being issues that they struggle with.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:17:24] Yeah, one of the biggest things that I hear all the time is feeling like they can't disconnect. That even if they're on vacation or they need to take a day off, they have to be tuned in to what's happening in the office. Otherwise they can't feel right about taking time off, especially if they're the only managing partner at the firm where they've got associates under them that aren't well-trained, or staff that's not as reliable as they should be, it makes those things a whole lot more stressful. And I know from your story, you couldn't take vacations either Jeena, without feeling super anxious. So it's something that isn't completely uncommon, but one of the things that we try to help our attorneys with is understanding some of the mechanics behind running a business, and how those things can help you disconnect.

So if you have processes and procedures in place for how things should go, and you've got a way that you can check in on those things very quickly and from a bird's eye perspective, that might be one way that you can take a break and maybe set aside 20 minutes a day to check in and just take a look at your practice management software. And you can see how many outstanding tasks there are, how much time your associates have billed, or whether certain phone calls got made or certain e-mails got sent. It's all from one central location, and if you're utilizing the tools properly (like utilizing our project management features) you can see when things are past due or the statute of limitations is coming up, and all of those things can really help to give you peace of mind. If you're not going to be missing a deadline, it's totally okay for you to take a break for a week and spend time with your family, spend time with yourself, and not really worry about what's going on at the firm. Because you've done the hard work of making sure that things can run without you being there every second. The other thing that I hear a lot about too is trying to manage staff. When we're in law school, we don't learn how to manage others.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:03] There are so many things we don't learn in law school!

Nefra MacDonald: [00:20:04] Oh gosh, yes. But aside from not knowing how to track your time and what you can actually bill clients for and all of that good stuff, how to manage others. And it comes in two perspectives: one is having unrealistic expectations of your staff, how much work can they really handle and creating the opportunity to have a constructive conversation about it. So if you're delegating a ton of stuff to your support staff and they're not getting it done in a timely fashion, you may want to blame it on laziness or lack of skills or what have you, but a lot of the times it's because they don't have the support they need; in terms of training, in terms of processes, in terms of support, and they may not feel like communication is open to be able to come and tell you these things. So we also direct our users to really utilize the software to take a look at productivity reports, to take a look at task reports and see, okay if you've delegated something to someone, how long is it taking them to get things done? And how much do they really have on their plate? Is that reasonable?

[00:21:24] And being able to look at those things and then have a conversation with someone to ask what it is they can handle and what they can't, that stuff's really important. And then mindfulness also comes into play here, because if you've got your own stuff going on, like you've got a sick child at home and a ton of deadlines and you've got trial in two weeks, you may be feeling a certain level of stress. And if you haven't checked in with that and somebody comes to you with a problem or there's a screw up that happens with one of your staff members and you need to address it, you may address it in a way that is not from a place of kindness or love. And that can really blow up and it can really affect the relationship and the dynamic in your office. If you're taking the time to be aware of where you are and then addressing the problem, you can address it from a place of compassion and also understanding what's happening with that. And it's more constructive that way, you can be a part of the solution as opposed to expressing anger and frustration, and not really getting things anywhere because now that person's upset.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:39] It's like working on processes and streamlining everything, and utilizing technology but also working on actually developing some of these tools and to be able to manage stress and anxiety. And I think those two things actually sort of feed on each other, even though we may not necessarily think about it. Like if your mind is constantly going 150 mph and you're constantly distracted, having all of the processes in place probably won't help you because your mind is just not available to actually pay attention to those things, so it's almost like you...

Nefra MacDonald: [00:32:41] Yeah, you don't have the bandwidth.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:42] Right, yeah. And I love that point you made about knowing what your limitations are, and I think having a system where you can see exactly what your capacity is is really helpful. Because if you're going on feel or a memory, it's probably not going to be all that accurate because it's just going be how you're feeling in that moment.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:32:57] Yeah, that's not real business intelligence. We're able to give people actual numbers and things that they can act on from a place of knowing what's actually going on. And if everyone is trained and using the system in the right way, you have the ability to make intelligent business decisions. Like hiring more staff or bringing in somebody twice a week to help with billing, or hiring a temporary file clerk; you can see where the bottlenecks are in your office and how it's putting stress on the system itself, and come up with solutions that can work temporarily, until you can figure out a more permanent way to tighten up those processes. Business is an iterative process; you're constantly looking at it and finding ways to improve. And I think it's also analogous to the way we should be living our lives. Like I am so comfortable always being a work in progress, because I just know how much more full my life is going to continue to be because I think that way. It should make you really hopeful for your business too, in knowing that there's always going to be a way for you improve. And it doesn't have to happen all at one time right now, but it can happen over time and you'll get to experience and see that growth and enjoy it.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:07] Right, I think it's that ability to hold both. So being okay where you are right now and accepting things just as they are, and also being open to the possibility of something more, something better, being a slightly better version of yourself or even having your business be where it is now, but also recognizing that that's a temporary state. That's not how it's always going to be, and that you can actually work on improving it over time.

[00:34:32] So as we mentioned before, Rocket Matter is hosting its first legal wellness retreat. Some people might be like, oh they're a technology company why are they doing a wellness retreat? So tell us about the idea behind the wellness retreat, and what your goals are.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:34:46] Yeah, so Rocket Matter as a company, our values have always been aligned with health and wellness. It's actually one of our cultural pillars internally, so we do a lot of wellness programming for our employees. We have a gym upstairs on our second floor, we do company picnics with tons of sports, we had a meditation expert come in and train the entire company on meditation, and it opened a lot of people up to the practice that weren't familiar with it before. But it's really a company where people can try to find that balance for themselves, and we always want to provide those tools to our employees.

[00:35:20] It ties into our attorneys as well and our customers, because they're a part of our extended Rocket Matter family. And when our firms are doing well, so are we. And there is this really big problem that we're aware of, in terms of depression and anxiety, suicide rates, substance abuse problems, and just people not really enjoying the practice of law anymore. And the Florida Bar has been doing so much this year, in terms of studies and surveys. And there are a significant portion of the attorney population that, if they could do anything else with their lives, they would not be practicing law. Hi, living example. So how do we shift the culture, how do we make a change? And we want to be a part of that, we want to give people ways to really reframe the way they look at lawyering and running their businesses and practicing law. And what is it like to be in the same room with someone who is highly stressed versus someone who brings a little bit more peace and centeredness? It really does shift the energy and the dynamic, in terms of negotiations, in terms of how you deal with clients, in terms of how you deal with your staff, and how things are with your family. And we see that with our own employees, and because our customers are our extended family, we want to bring some of that knowledge and awareness to them as well. So that was how the idea for the legal wellness retreat was born.

[00:36:42] We want to bring aspects of wellness in terms of your mind, your body, financial wellness for your firm, practice management and processes; all of those things will be topics that we discuss at the retreat. So attendees will be able to get those hours of CLE's in the morning. But it's also going to be mixed in with programming to help you tune in, like in the morning you can run one of the trails or you can do yoga in the afternoon. We'll have activities that you can take part in in the beautiful mountains of western Massachusetts, which are just so stunning, stuff like ropes courses or hiking one of the trails, canoeing on the Housatonic River; there's so many beautiful, beautiful parts of nature that you can experience and connect with. So it's a really great chance to do a mix of both.

You get those CLE credits, you get some time in nature, a lot of our attendees will be bringing their families so they can spend some time with them and extend the trip through the weekend. But there's gorgeous food and culture and views, and it's going to be a really awesome experience. We're really glad that Jeena is going to be there to share her tips for mindfulness and take our attendees through some practices they can take home with them. And that's what we want too; we want people to have action items to take home with them. We want to continue to be your accountability partner once you leave the retreat. So any insights that you get, any next steps that you come up with, we want to be able to check in with our attendees and see how it's going, offer support and make sure that the experience is actually transformative in one way or another for them.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:17] I love it, and I'm really looking forward to it. So the dates are July 18 through the 20th. And for the listeners out there that want to learn more about the retreat, where's the best place for them to do that?

Nefra MacDonald: [00:38:29] So they can go to legalwellnessretreat.com, and from there you can see a list of our speakers, our agenda, and be able to register for the conference.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:38] Great. So once again, that's legalwellnessretreat.com. All of this information will be in the show notes. And for my listeners, there is a $100 discount code that you can use, it's "J-E-E-N-A-L-W-R-1-8." And again, all of this information will be in the show notes. Nefra, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom with the listeners.

Nefra MacDonald: [00:38:50] It's been my pleasure and honor, thank you guys so much.

Closing: [00:38:52] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I had the pleasure of changing things up and interviewing Dina Eisenberg. Dina Eisenberg Esq is the award-winning Legal Ops Strategist who teaches lawyers to delegate, automate and design a law practice that fits their life. Learn more about her coursework and consulting at http://OutsourceEasier.com,

Topics Covered 

• Dina explains how modern law is evolving and different ways lawyers today can leverage their time to better to adapt and utilize their most precious resource while avoiding common mistakes.
• The advantages to automating and outsourcing your social media branding, blogging, and other daily tasks that can take you away from where your time could be better spent.
• Where she sees law going in the future and how lawyers will change, her thoughts on “limited license legal technicians”, and how getting more information to the public and pro-bono work is not the end of lawyers careers.
• Issues facing women of color in the lack of representation in the legal profession and facing adversity of stigmas and qualifications set on us.

You can learn more about Dina and her work at:

Her Website : http://OutsourceEasier.com
Her Facebook page : https://www.facebook.com/groups/109742476315873/

Twitter : @DinaEisenberg

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hi@startherehq.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho 

For more information, visit: startherehq.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible 

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq 

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6-minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b 

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms. 

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Transcript

Jeena Cho: [00:00:00] Hello my friends, thanks for joining us today. In this episode, I am so delighted to have Dina Eisenberg. Dina is an award-winning legal ops strategist who teaches lawyers to delegate, automate and design a law practice that fits their life.

[00:00:23] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a Six Minute Guided Meditation Practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often lawyers tell me things like, I know I should practice mindfulness but I just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, you know what, just start with six minutes. Just start with .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work and others, don't you deserve to have at least one .1 hour to yourself?

[00:00:58] Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into their very, very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Dina! Dina, welcome to the Resilient Lawyer. I am so happy to have you.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:01:20] Oh Jeena, I am delighted to be here and to chat with you. I know that we're going to have the best conversation ever.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:26] I am so excited and I love that we have a mutual friend Stephanie, who I guess has told you that we were going to break the internet. So let's see if we can make that happen.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:01:35] For sure, for sure. Let's do it.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:37] All right, so let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:01:44] So I am a legal ops strategist, which basically means that I love to help lawyers learn how to streamline and automate and delegate in their practice so that they actually design a practice that they love to work in and serve their clients in.

[00:02:02] I did practice law. People ask me all the time, I practiced, I was a prosecutor. And I practiced in the area that was kind of sad. I prosecuted doctors for sexual misconduct.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:12] Oh my gosh.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:02:13] So, very heavy but necessary work and I walked away from it with a lot of respect for those women and some new skills around how to stand up for yourself and make your way in the world.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:26] I love that. I also started as a prosecutor too. So we also have that in common.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:02:31] There you go.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:32] So, walk me through. How did you go from being a prosecutor to going — you know, I'm going to do this thing — legal ops and help people delegate, automate and design a law practice?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:02:44] It is a patchwork quilt, I have to tell you Jeena. It was one of those things so, you know I was working with the women...and really what they wanted to know and the world to know is that, "I've been done wrong, and I want to have my day in court." Which is what everybody wants when they go to see a lawyer. But they didn't have the ability to do that. They didn't have the information or the knowledge to make it happen and that's why they came to me.

And while I wasn't happy as a prosecutor, I knew that I wanted to help more people stand up, say what was true for them and use the knowledge to have power over their own lives. And so, that's why I went to law school actually. You know, most people don't know why they go. I went to law school because I wanted to be able to give people more power to have the information to change their lives. Because I grew up in a family where that didn't happen. And I saw what can happen when you have the right information, you can make good decisions. When you don't have that information, you do the best that you can. So I've always had my career focused on helping people gather information to turn that into power to make things happen.

And from that, I became the ombudsman at Bank of America, where I had 60,000 employees across the domestic U.S. come to me on a daily basis and say, "I need help managing my life, I need help managing the emotions I have at work, I need help understanding other people." And I really enjoyed being in the business environment as a lawyer, because it sort of balanced me if you will. So I had all this sort of emotional content on one side around being a conflict expert. And then the sort of more rational, analytical side, looking at business and doing the analysis of why problems happen. And that really led me to be more curious about how I can help people deal with their work life on a day to day, and particularly lawyers, because I'd been away from the law for a while. I had an incident where these two guys made me cry over being a lawyer. They were just so nasty that I thought I never want to be associated with the law again. And it took me about 10 years to get over that.

[00:04:57] And so when I got curious about being a lawyer again I started looking around and I thought, "Oh my gosh, you know my brothers and sisters at the bar are struggling." They are not using the most up-to-date technology to drive their practices, to make it easier. But worse than that, they have so burdened under these emotional chains of feeling guilty, of feeling afraid, of feeling burdened. And I knew that I could impact that, right, because I'd worked with folks who had been in conflict with themselves or with others. And I knew I could share some tools around being emotionally smart and stronger and resilient. So you didn't get buffered around by all the emotions of practicing law, because the law is very intimate. I know people won't think of it that way, but I think of it that way. You're intervening in someone's life when they're at the most challenged, they're on their worst behavior, they're stressed, they're angry, they're upset. And then you get to intervene, and you're going to get some of their emotion on you.

[00:05:56] There's no way to avoid that. We have to be able to manage it. And so far, lawyers learn in law school emotion is bad, it's suspect. We don't want to deal with your emotions.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:08] Right. Good lawyers don't have emotions, which is one of my favorites. It's like, no you're a human being I'm sorry you have emotions.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:06:15] Right, right! So if you're stuffing your client's emotions down because it makes you feel like you're more effective in your work, you're also stuffing your own emotions down and you know like I do, the emotions have to go somewhere, they're like matter they never disappear.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:30] So walk me through, when you start working with an attorney, who are sort of your typical clients that you work with and what does that journey look like? It seems like you're doing a lot, like you're helping people with sort of sorting through their own emotional world and kind of working through that. But you're also helping people sort of design law practices and helping them delegate and automate. So walk us through that journey, what does that look like?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:06:57] Yeah it is actually both, it's the tactical, practical side figuring out what are we going to offer to clients, you know how are we going to increase our revenue. We're at a really pretty exciting time right now in the law. I might be one of the few people who thinks that, but we have an opportunity to change the way that we're delivering legal services. And so I like to encourage lawyers to think of, particularly solo ones, small-firm lawyers, to think of that as the opportunity for them to leverage their time; create ways for you to share your legal knowledge that don't necessarily involve you.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:31] Can you give us an example of what that looks like, what would be an example of something that lawyers can do to leverage their time that doesn't actually involve them doing? Which is what most of us do right, trade time for money.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:07:43] That's exactly it. So right now I think that it's a great opportunity for people who are doing transactional law, so your consumers, and there's a segment of your people who come to see you who maybe are not your ideal client, maybe they can't quite afford you. Why would you let that segment go away without helping them? You could create a guide or a short mini-course to help maybe a pro se client in a divorce, or maybe in an immigration matter, learn enough to be able to help themselves.

So you derive a small bit of income based on your legal knowledge that you're sharing with them. They still get the help they need even though they can't maybe afford your regular rate, you're able to assist them. So maybe a course, something like that. I've been encouraging people to talk about how to select a lawyer in your category. So for instance, if you're a family lawyer, people don't really know how to pick a divorce lawyer or the difference between a divorce lawyer and a family lawyer. That's a point of education where you can help somebody understand, okay here is the distinction between the two things. Here's what you're looking for in a family lawyer. Here are the credentials you're looking for, but here are the personality traits you're also looking for.

[00:08:59] This is going to be the kind of person that you want to select because clients don't know how to pick lawyers right, they're just really picking based on somebody else's referral. If you could educate them on what would make a good choice, then you become more likely to be a good choice.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:15] Yeah. I mean that makes so much sense and you know, having practiced bankruptcy law for many, many years often like a lot of clients don't even realize they need a bankruptcy lawyer. They don't realize, oh right, I have you know $500,000 of tax debt. And they don't think like, oh I need to go see a bankruptcy lawyer, they think, I need to go see a CPA or a tax attorney. Often the tax attorneys don't even know that the client maybe should be referred out for a bankruptcy consult. So yeah, I love that but you know as I was listening to you talk about sort of creating these online courses, I can also hear sort of the objections from the lawyers right, going, "Oh my gosh, if I sell this little booklet then the client's going to sue me for malpractice because they're going to assume that I'm their lawyer." Or there's some sort of ethical obligation for me to enter into an attorney-client relationship. So what do you say to those attorneys?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:10:09] Well you know what, that question came up live when I was giving a talk in New York about a month ago. That question came up and I'm honest with people, it's an area where we're still in a grey spot. I've reached out for some ethical opinions, I'm doing some research. But I think that we can proceed because if you put the right disclaimers in place and help clients understand what you're offering, why is this any different than what we're doing now with unbundled services, right?

[00:10:43] It's not any different. It's just explaining how the message and the information is being shared in this vehicle as opposed to some other vehicle.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:52] I'm sure that one way that lawyers can leverage their time. What are some of the common mistakes you see lawyers make all the time, like what are your top let's say three things that lawyers should just stop doing immediately?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:11:03] Immediately? Do we have like a couple of hours? This is my pet peeve...

[00:11:10] So the only thing that lawyer should be doing is practicing law and building relationships. Everything else could be delegated or automated. We just don't think that we should give those things up because to your point, we are afraid things will go wrong you will get blamed. Or we sort of drank the kool-aid at law school and we think that there's nothing that we shouldn't be able to do. So, of course, I have to do that myself. Very destructive attitude. I think lawyers should stop answering the phone, first thing right off the bat. There is no reason for you, in a solo or a small firm, to be answering your own phone. One, it's a distraction. And if you're up on contact switching, which means that once you've answered the phone it takes your brain between 5 to 20 minutes to get back to the task that you were doing before you stopped to answer the phone. So it seems like five minutes, but it's actually more like a half an hour of wasted time. And you know, we're reporting now that lawyers are only billing for 1.76 hours a day.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:16] Yikes, yeah!

Dina Eisenberg: [00:12:18] Isn't that horrible?! So if you're answering the phone, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. So stop answering the phone. Stop working on your own web site people, please, please!

Jeena Cho: [00:12:29] I am totally there with you. Unless for some reason, actually I think there are people out there that really like love it and they love to tinker with them and they like actually want to learn how to code or whatever. But I think like 99% of us, yeah like hire someone to go and do your website for sure.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:12:51] That's exactly it, it's not your thing unless you went to design school. And there are actually is some disadvantage to having an ugly, non-functioning website. If you don't have the time to keep it updated and keep the content fresh, then you need to hire someone to help you do that. You can hire a virtual assistant who is a legal writer to write your content, to keep your blog updated.

[00:13:16] When I go to a lawyer's blog and I see that the last entry was June 2014 you know what happens, right? Off the list, because that means if they can't be bothered to update their website, how do I know they're staying up to date with the latest law to help me?

Jeena Cho: [00:13:33] Or at least just take your blog down. I mean, I actually question whether every lawyer needs to have a blog, like I almost feel like that's sort of the standard operating procedure advice. Like every lawyer should be on Twitter and Facebook and have a blog. And I think that might be pretty good advice for people that do consumer-facing work. But I don't know that every lawyer needs to have their own Twitter handle and I see so many of these, especially like some of the big law firms, all they tweet about is like, I don't know just stuff that I can't imagine that any of their clients are looking at their Twitter profile thinking, "I'm so glad that partner won that award of the year." It's like no one cares, like stop.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:14:18] So the blog thing, I actually think you need to have a blog. I think the blog is a way to have a conversation, and you know I use my blog to talk about the things I want to talk about that are important. So that's for me the use for having a blog, that you can start having these conversations you know, put ideas out, share information. It doesn't have to be you, right? You can do the one that sets the agenda for the blog. So you use an editorial calendar that plots out the content for the year and you find somebody else to write it, it doesn't have to be you doing the writing. But I think it's a way to express ideas and that's how people hire us. They read our ideas and how we think and then they decide, okay I like that thinking, I want this person to help me solve this legal problem.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:01] Yeah. I guess the other question or concern might be if that's the point right, so that someone actually reads my writing or the writing that's on my blog and says, oh I want to hire that lawyer based on sort of the tone or the conversations that the person is writing. But if you're not actually writing the content, are you actually able to you know, sort of put your personality or who you are out there in an accurate way?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:15:30] You know what, that question comes up all the time, will somebody get my voice? Yes, somebody will get your voice! And since you're providing the oversight, in terms of the topic and how you want to shape the interview or the article, they're going to write it, you're going to review it again. So you have another opportunity to look at it. It takes less time to edit than it actually does to write, so you're still saving time and the voice will still be the same. It's always so funny to me, people cling to that one point but we all wear designer clothes, right. I have to say, I don't think Ralph Lauren is in the back with the sewing machine, zipping out you know outfits for all of us.

[00:16:09] He directs his staff and his vision is you know, recreated by other people. I think the same thing can happen when you write a blog.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:18] Yeah. So I will agree with you because, for such a long time, I was completely against the idea of hiring someone to do any writing for my website. And recently I launched a program and I was just struggling with the sales page, like just writing the content. And I almost feel like, you know, like writing my own resume. I can write anybody else's resume all day long and do a fantastic job at it, but it was like writing my own resume and it was hard. It's really hard. And I was talking to a business coach and she was like, you know what just hire someone to do it. And I was like, (gasp) I couldn't possibly! No one else can get my voice, but you know what, I did. I hired someone, he did such a fantastic job and I edited the hell out of it and actually made it my own. But you know, I would say I probably kept about 70% of what you wrote, and I got it done. And I think that's really the important, key highlight here. If you're not regularly blogging anyway, maybe just consider hiring someone. Because then really the only thing you have to do is edit and just get it out there into the world.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:17:26] I so agree with that. I mean, it's about the communication, not necessarily who creates the communication, so keep doing that. The other things I think we should stop doing is you know, really stop doing the social media and it's to the point we just had. You want to be president, you want to be offering relevant content, but finding that content and then delivering it is hours that you don't necessarily have to spend in your day to do that. You can use automation tools to gather up that information like Google Alerts and Google Trends is where other places where you can find that information. Somebody else can be curating it, sending it to you in the morning to look at. You can pick the ones you want and your social media manager can then go ahead and create the post that you're going to push out across your platforms. It doesn't have to be you, you just have to give the oversight.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:17] Yes. And I'm a huge fan of Buffer, which automates a lot this and you can put your favorite blogs on there and just grab you know, really great posts and share it with your audience. And you know, I have a virtual assistant that manages that for me and it's like, it's made life so much easier.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:18:36] It is! And for folks who are not going to get the virtual assistant, which you and I both know is a good thing to do, there's a tool called Opscalendar by Brian Castle. And what I love about that particular tool is that it sits inside your blog. So once you finish that blog post, or whoever's writing it for you, you can then immediately schedule social media. So it's not like, "Oh I forgot to do it, I didn't have time." Right there, you switch over to the Opscalendar and you can set it to post for you in different outlets, so Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and over different days, you can actually post you know, this week and have it deliver the post next week, the week after, or the week after that. It's a great way to recycle all your old posts.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:24] I love that, is that like a WordPress plugin?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:19:27] It is.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:28] I learned something new today, I am definitely going to check that out. Because I have so many blog posts on my website and I just feel like, it's great content but it's just now sitting on my blog and I'm not really getting any mileage out of it, so I love that.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:19:45] Opscalendar is a great way to recirculate all that stuff, and that saves you time. Because people maybe didn't catch it the first time around. So now you don't have to write something new.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:57] I love that. So maybe we can transition, this feels like a good next topic for us to talk about. So where do you see the future of law going? We talked a little bit about you know, lawyers offering online courses and really leveraging their time more. But you know, what's sort of your bigger vision or you know, where do you see the law headed in the next 20-30 years?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:20:25] Oh, 20-30 years. Okay I was just thinking 10...

Jeena Cho: [00:20:31] Why not, start with 10, yeah.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:20:33] You know what, in 10 years I think I imagine us having more hybrid practices, so that there's still some of the elements of a traditional practice, but that more and more lawyers create other digital assets that create income streams for them. So it is not just trading the hours for the time, that you have courses, that you have books, that you teach courses or workshops. That just going to court is not the only way that legal knowledge is shared with people.

I'm really excited about how much unbundling is going on, I hope that trend's going to continue because I think it gives us so much more opportunity in a couple ways. One, the opportunity for access to counsel. I've been saddened and very saddened to discover how little access people have. As I've been studying more, so I think as we begin to break down the legal matter into it's smallest bits and then say that we can offer you that little bit based on how much you know, budget you have at the moment, is a great thing, good for lawyers who are able to boost their income a little bit. Good for clients who wouldn't otherwise be able to get that help. So I'd love to see a lot more un-bundling.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:53] Yeah. What do you think about you know like, in Washington State and some other states, they're starting to have these limited license legal technicians come on board?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:22:04] I know it won't be a popular opinion, but I like that idea.

[00:22:09] I think that you know, in some ways, it will give lawyers a chance to give up that part of practicing law and focus on maybe larger issues, societal issues that we could focus on and really use our talents. Not so much on the transactional day-to-day stuff, so I see that as a good trend.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:27] Yeah. You know and, I wish I had the study at my fingertips, but it was something like, you know there's like millions and millions of cases that take place in the U.S. where the person can use a lawyer but they can't afford one. And I looked at those numbers and it's sort of, the point of the study was that like you know, like a lot of these bar associations are creating these, legal clinics and maybe taking on a few thousand more cases. Like no amount of pro-bono work, like literally every lawyer in this country can just start working pro-bono for free for 40 hours a week, and we still wouldn't be able to meet all of that unmet need. And so I think that leads to a question of, what do you do for the folks that you know, don't qualify for a public defender, that are going in and representing themselves? And it could be something pretty simple like, you know doing a will or a simple divorce or whatever it is. And I think we really need to figure out a way to empower people to do those things.

[00:23:35] Exactly. And I don't really see that being a threat to my job. Even though I think bankruptcy is one of those areas that I think will become more and more automated and I think that the will leave bankruptcy lawyers more freedom to be able to take on those cases where WE are actually needed. To have like, a simple bankruptcy case like I think you can actually create (a lot of bankruptcy lawyers are going to be angry at me for saying this) that we can actually probably create an intake questionnaire that is sophisticated enough to be able to spit out a simple, chapter 7 bankruptcy petition that that person can then go and file themselves.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:24:16] I agree, I agree. And how much fairer would that be? I learned the other day this kind of astonishing fact that more people of color actually go to chapter 13 because they can't afford the fees for a Chapter 7. And maybe they're not aware of the fees and maybe I'm incorrect in that, but it seems like if there was another mechanism to help people either deal with that small fee or get the help to work through that process, it would be great.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:40] Oh how interesting, because yeah I mean, most courts will allow you to make installment payments. I mean it's a separate application, which again is kind of crazy, like there's this $360 fee but you have to fill out this whole other application so you can make installment payments and then you also have to provide supporting documents and it's just like, I don't like, how do we realistically expect a pro se client to know that and to be able to fill out those forms? And so, yeah there's just a lot of different layers of issues that we need to sort through. Is just like, how difficult it is to actually access the courts...

Dina Eisenberg: [00:25:23] That's right. I think it's just the technical aspects that people fail on. They don't know the way to navigate the court, what form to use, even how to address the court personnel is also daunting. And so if we can have ways for people to either get that information or get the assistance, that would be great. I know we've been focusing a lot on low-bono and I like that trend, but it's hard to get people on board with that.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:55] Yeah. And then whenever I see the Bar Association kind of wanting to ban the legalisms of the world. I mean to me, it's almost like trying to stop the tide. Like, it's already here, you know. I mean like automation and Google become smarter and information becomes democratized. You know, I think lawyers sort of thinking, I'm just going to sit on all this legal knowledge and that's what they're going to pay me for. Uhmm yeah, I don't know.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:26:29] Not anymore. Consumers are so much savvier now in terms of what they're willing to pay for. It hasn't escaped their notice that we're not the only way to get things done. And so, I think smart lawyers are figuring that out and saying yes, of course I want to present as many ways and options for me to be able to help you as possible. Pick the ones that work for you and work for your budget. That, I think is the smart way to practice law now, as opposed to holding on to the traditional ways of doing it, being exclusive in terms of the knowledge and sort-of lording that over people, which is what law has been in the past.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:06] Yeah, yeah. I'm debating on whether I should have you talk about lawyers, I'll give you two potential options or maybe we can do both of them in very short bursts. Talk about what lawyers can do to sort of stay ahead of the trend and not become irrelevant is one, and also talking about the women of color in the legal space, because I think that's very relevant to the conversation.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:27:37] Yeah let's just go for it. Let's talk about that one. I might get myself in trouble, but you know it won't be the first time.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:45] So speaking of your vision for law practice in the future, you know I just read another study from the National Association of Women Lawyers and it's just disheartening. Even though women, women of color, people of color have been going to law school at a much, much higher rate for the last several decades. We're just not making that much great progress in terms of making it to partnership in law firms, equity partnerships. And you know so, obviously for people that are not able to see us like, we're both women of color and you and I were just chatting before we got started on the interview about just, that feeling of like going to a legal conference and seeing the entire panel of speakers be white, or more likely white male, and how that impacts us as women of color.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:28:40] I'm so happy we're having this conversation because I don't think there's been enough discussion around how challenging it is to be a woman of color in the law profession. You know, now when I look at articles and things that come up through conferences, I look at the pictures. And if everybody looks the same. I'm less likely to go to that conference. Now that's a bad thing for a couple of reasons. One, it's bad for them because they're not going to get the benefit of my knowledge, my expertise, and my different perspective. It's bad for me because the conference is not going to see me as an equal who has something to offer them.

We are so behind, and I don't mind saying I'm 55, and I remember when I first started out and ended my 20's, I was part of a group where they were going to bust the diversity question wide open and bring more people of color into the law profession. How is it that 30 years later we are still talking about this? The only reason that can be so I think is because some folks are holding the notion of what the success model should look like in play. And it does not look like you or me. And that's what is keeping things from moving forward. We can talk about the change all we want, but until people start admitting that when they see a woman lawyer they don't necessarily think the top of the class, they don't necessarily think outstanding leader. More often than not they think, is that the court reporter? It's just so annoying.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:20] It is super annoying. So I want to back up a little bit so, you know when you see a list of speakers and none of them look like you, what's the impact that that has on you?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:30:36] It's very hard for me to believe that my perspective is in the room when I don't see anybody that looks like me in the room. And I don't necessarily mean it in a harsh way, that people are intentionally trying to exclude me. Although I'm sure that some of that is true. It's just that (and I've actually been in a room when this has happened) if there's no one there to say, "Please take another look or ask another question." There is a group-think around, okay. Let me see if I can explain how this happens. So, for a long time was an ombudsman. I would go to senior-level meetings where would be talking about who's going to move up to the next level. And there would always be you know, a woman candidate. Sometimes the woman would be of color, and people would agree she would be wonderful. And then somebody would say the code word, which is "seasoned". "I don't know if she's seasoned enough."

Jeena Cho: [00:31:35] Or, "She's too nice. Or not nice enough." Or too assertive, or not assertive enough.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:31:42] Unless there's somebody else in the room to say, "Come on, really? What do you mean by that?" Then everybody else just nods and they go on to the next person. So I think it's the same thing, when someone who doesn't look like you is not in the room, I don't think our perspective gets in the room. I don't think our brilliance is considered, and there's a loss for everybody when that happens.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:04] Right. Yeah for me it's the sense like, "Oh, I'm not invited into this space." Now it may not be intentional, and I want to make that very clear. Because often when I point out the lack of diversity on the speakers, the organizers will tell me, "Well it's not intentional." And I'm not saying that they all sat around and said well, we want to make sure that we only allow white folks to speak. None of us are saying that, but the actual impact that has on people of color or women of color is not, oh I'm not welcome in this space. And I don't think that if you're sort of, the white lawyer like you even know what that experience is like, to walk into a space where you're like, "Oh I'm not invited." Because that never happens because you're always the majority.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:32:52] And to take that one step further which is the other piece of it is, I'm not welcome and I have to defend my right to be here. I cannot tell you how many professional meetings I've been at where someone has said, and it shocks me, "What are you doing here?" Okay. I think I'm at a professional meeting networking, you're here at the same meeting - wouldn't I be doing the same thing you're doing? Right? It's, that kind of attitude makes it very hard to walk into a room because you know your armor has to be up, you have to be on, and you really have to be spending a lot more energy managing things other than being in the conversation and making that connection.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:34] And I think this is such a relevant conversation when we talk about the future of law, because as lawyers we serve the public. And you know, the truth of the matter is that the population of the U.S. is becoming incredibly diverse. I mean I think it's something like, by like 2040 we're not going to have a single race, right, like white people are no longer going to be the majority race. And so I sort of feel like, how are we going to serve a population that's going to become more and more diverse over time if we're still lacking in diversity as a profession ourselves? Can we truly relate to the experience of the other, if we're not actually welcoming diverse perspectives?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:34:28] I love this conversation. I love this conversation because it's not one that, hopefully, our having this conversation will spark other people to begin to question what they can do to move this issue along a little bit. Can you ask, you know, I wonder why there's not a diverse panel? Can you suggest names, because often to your point Jeena, I've heard people say, "Well we couldn't find anybody."

Jeena Cho: [00:34:55] Or my other favorite, "Oh, we just pick the best speakers."

Dina Eisenberg: [00:35:00] There you go, of course, that wouldn't be you. So you know, we just have to ask people to be more aware and ask more questions. As women of color and lawyers of color, we can't always be the ones asking this question.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:14] Nor are we actually, nor do we have the power to be able to change it because we're not on the organizing committees at these, you know 6,000 people conferences. And so my husband's white and we've had a lot of these sort of difficult conversations, and I think sometimes it's really hard to say like as a white person say, "Hey, you know what? Every single speaker is white, and that's a problem," because I almost feel like the other people in the room are going to look at you and be like, well why do you care, you're white?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:35:47] What's it to you?! Exactly, I think that is exactly right. I think somebody who decides they're going to stand up and speak about this is very brave because it really will point out to other people that you are different and not necessarily going along with the group think that goes with white privilege. So, I'm applauding the person who does that quite a bit. I admire that person.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:12] Yeah, and I don't think that you need any sort of justification or reason to say you know what, diversity and inclusion matters to me. I don't think you have to be like, "I want you know I think diversity inclusion is important because my wife is Asian," or "Diversity inclusion is important because my cousin is black." I mean it's like, you don't need any justification to say like you know what, I believe in diversity and inclusion as a principle. And this matters to me. And I think every person can stand up and say this is something that's important and it matters to me, regardless of what your race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, so on and so forth. Yes.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:36:55] We have to be able to stand up for each other and protect each other when necessary. And that you know, that used to be something that was one of the guiding principles of this country, not that I want to get into politics, but it doesn't seem to be anymore.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:11] Yeah, I know. And I just feel like these types of conversations are so needed right now but we don't have the language, we don't have the tools to be able to have these conversations in a civil manner.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:37:25] That's exactly it. Very hard, you know I always say that the most underrated skill that we don't recognize is listening. Listening is an amazing skill that will really bring you so many gifts and keep you out of so many scrapes if you use this tool. But we don't listen to each other anymore, we don't even listen to ourselves to be perfectly honest.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:49] Yeah, yeah. And I think listening to ourselves is a great place to start because if we don't have self-awareness it's really hard to actually know what your position is and be in the world.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:38:01] Something we don't spend enough time talking about.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:07] Yeah. You know I feel like I need to have you come back on the show so we can devote like another episode on this specific topic, because it just doesn't get talked about very often and I'm just really kind of shocked that you know, even in 2017 just the lack of diversity inclusion and so many legal spaces, I mean particularly like legal technology and it's just shocking. And if they're going to claim to serve the public but they completely lack diversity in themselves like, are they really in the best position to be able to serve an incredibly diverse group, like the public.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:38:50] The short answer would be no.

[00:38:55] Yeah I would, I would love to come back and talk about it. You know it's funny, I'm interested in talking about this and I'm interested in effecting change and making things happen. I'm scared that there are so few people of color in the legal profession and that we don't have the words that we should have. I'm scared that there are so many women who are in what I would call "the pink ghettos of law" who never even think about moving to other more profitable, lucrative areas. It's like, oh yeah, we can have a long conversation.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:29] But before I let you go, so the name of this podcast is the Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:39:37] Oh my gosh, great question. You know, I think resilience is about admitting that you're not always strong. That there will be times when you will break down, that you will need help, and that you ask for that help when you need it. And that's a lesson that's really hard for lawyers to embrace because we're used to being the ones who give the help, we're used to be the ones who are the rescuers, not the ones getting rescued. But I like to say that if you cannot rest, if you cannot give yourself that time you need to heal, how can you be effective in protecting somebody else? You can't, you can't give them your full self.

[00:40:25] So I think that self-care really is a tool that lawyers should embrace. Not just because it's good for you; it is. I think that meditation is something we should be doing, we should be doing nature baths, we should be embracing our emotional selves. It's good for you but it's also good for your clients. The more you're in touch with your emotions and how to manage them, the more that you can be in touch with their emotions and help them manage them. I had a great conversation with someone the other day about social media and family law, and they were saying how crappy it is when their clients go on to social media and talk about the case. I was like, "Yeah that is crappy," and they really, the lawyer's really upset and getting frothy about it, and I was like, "Okay, I totally get that. And can you see where, from their perspective, they needed that vehicle and you didn't give them any other choice about what to do?" Right. So you knew they were going to be upset because family law clients do get upset, you knew you didn't want them to be on social media, but you didn't give them any alternative. You just said don't do it. Why didn't you give them any other tools to cope with that?

Jeena Cho: [00:41:34] Yeah, it's so challenging. That level of emotional intelligence and empathy and compassion. These are all things they don't teach you in law school.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:41:51] They must now, right? It's been a while since I've been in law school. But now there are some courses on that, right?

Jeena Cho: [00:41:58] I think a couple here and there. But certainly not taught to the masses, I think a lot of law professors still cling to the Socratic method, sadly I know.

[00:42:12] Dina, for people that want to learn more about your work or want to connect with you, what are some ways that they can do that?

Dina Eisenberg: [00:42:19] Oh I would love to be in touch with the listeners. They certainly can join me on my website, which is outsourceeasier.com. I'm on Facebook, my Facebook Mastermind is The Intentional Lawyer's Club. Where we're talking about "three-exing" your income and chilling. Yeah, I'm a big chill girl. Certainly, you can find me on Twitter at @dinaeisenberg.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:45] And I have to thank Twitter for bringing us together, where I also find a lot of my guests. It's such a wonderful tool, so I am happy to be living in this time where we have all these amazing tools that we can leverage for connecting with others.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:43:02] We are so blessed.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:03] Yes. Dina, thank you so much for joining me today. It was such a delight.

Dina Eisenberg: [00:43:09] Oh you know what Jeena? This has been the highlight, not only of my day, but I'm going to say the whole month. I am looking forward to getting to know you so much better and having so many more conversations. Thanks so much for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:20] Thank you.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

Mindful Pause discount code: resilient2020

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Fleshman on to talk about a different view of racism and the immediacy of the call to action she aims to instill in the future generations.

Karen Fleshman is an attorney, activist, and a nationally recognized expert on racism, workplace fair practices, and police brutality. Her recent video plea to white women to stop calling cops on people of color went viral, with over 4.2 million views. In 2014 Karen founded Racy Conversations, a training company to inspire the first anti-racist generation in the United States. She facilitates workshops on racism, unconscious bias, microaggressions, sexual harassment, inclusive management practices, and raising anti-racist children.

Topics Covered

• What inspired her to leave the law, and how she stumbled upon her current career of activism and inspiration.
• How anti-racism can be considered a mindfulness practice, and how she defines mindfulness and wellness as a communal environment.
• Why she is so focused on white women, and how sexism and racism are intertwined irrevocably in their fight for justice and equality. She even shares her thoughts on how white sexism has been used to propagate racism.
• How we fight against diversity apologists who "would hire more diversely, but can't lower our standards." We talk on how this mindset started, how it has been spread through white privilege, and how we can communicate and seek each other out more to show diversity in it's true form.

Learn more about Karen at:

Racy Conversations
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Karen Fleshman: [00:00:04] I think that's where we get confused about what racism is; racism is a system of privilege and wealth accumulation, it is not a personal fault. And I think that's where white people start to have the breakdown because they associate racism with a bad person.

Intro: [00:00:25] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:46] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Karen Fleshman. She is an attorney, activist, and a nationally recognized expert on racism, workplace fair-practices, and police brutality. Her recent video plea to white women to stop calling cops on people of color went viral, with over 4.2 million views. In 2014 Karen founded Racy Conversations, a training company to inspire the first anti-racist generation in the United States. She facilitates workshops on racism, unconscious bias, micro-aggression, sexual harassment, inclusive management practices, and raising anti-racist children.

[00:01:32] Before we get into the interview, I want to tell you about my new course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Try practicing mindfulness for just six minutes a day for 31 days and see for yourself the difference it can make in your life. Think about it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Karen. Karen, welcome to the show.

Karen Fleshman: [00:02:15] Thank you so much, Jeena. I'm so excited to be here and to get to have a conversation with you.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:21] Thank you. Before we get started, can you just give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do?

Karen Fleshman: [00:02:28] Yes. So my mission is to inspire the first anti-racist generation in America. 43% of millennials are people of color, 47% of Generation Z are people of color. And I'm trying to inspire 10% of white people in those generations, as well as 10% of white women, to flip anti-racist so we can have a majority anti-racist generation that will transform our society for the betterment of all people. That may be more than 30 seconds.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:03] Wow, I love your vision. When you say anti-racist, what does that mean?

Karen Fleshman: [00:03:11] Anti-racist, I really got that language.. I'm very much influenced by Dr. Ibram Kendi, the author of "Stamped from the Beginning," and he defines racist thought as the belief that one group is inherently superior to other groups, and therefore are deserving of domination. And to be anti-racist means to not believe in the inherent superiority of any race, or believe that any one race should be dominant. And to actively engage to actually dismantle racism within oneself, within one's community, within one's sphere of influence.

I'm really convinced if banning discrimination were enough, we wouldn't be where we are 50 years after a very successful movement that got our laws changed to ban discrimination. This has to be a grassroots, from the bottom up movement. And some people look at me like I'm crazy, but I do firmly believe that racism is not in the self-interest of the vast majority of white people. It is definitely in the self-interest of a tiny fraction of white people, and they have been able to convince the rest of us that it's in our self-interest too. But it's actually not, and I'm trying to help people to see that.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:52] Say more about that, how is it that racism doesn't benefit the majority of whites?

Karen Fleshman: [00:05:00] Well, we are a society in which 20% of the people control 95% of the wealth. And apparently that's not enough, they're trying to make it be 100%. Which I really don't understand, that just does not end well.

[00:05:18] So you have many white people in the 80% of people in who are controlling 5% of the wealth, and they are somehow lulled to think that the 20% has their interests at heart by this notion of racial superiority. And that's been the whole history of racism in our society, is that it was created by a tiny group of white men as a means of wealth and power accumulation. And then they were able to persuade white people without power and wealth to be their enforcers of it, by persuading them that they were racially superior to other people.

And then, of course, it makes sense to massacre and genocide Native Americans. And of course, it makes sense to enslave people from Africa and run around capturing them, bringing them back and torturing them, and doing all the horrible things that we've done. And I really do think this whole concept of white fragility is our post-traumatic response to all of the horrible things that our ancestors did and that we've never reconciled. We've never faced this history, we've never confronted its outcome and how it continues to impact us today. And I think that's why many, many white people experience a lot of trauma if you bring up the issue of race. Because I think we have very deep-seated fear and shame and guilt. Stemming from generations of trauma that we inflicted.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:18] Yeah, I get the sense that when we talk about racism and the privilege that whites have, the pushback that I often get is something like, but I'm not racist; I'm not doing anything to contribute. I have black friends. So when we're having this conversation, what is it that you're trying to get people to do or see or think about in a different way?

Karen Fleshman: [00:07:58] Well I think almost all white people in our country grow up learning what racism is from our white parents. And I don't think it's intentional on their part, they just literally did not know what they were doing. So I grew up with learning racism is terrible, Dr. Martin Luther King is wonderful, and the way to be not racist is to be colorblind and to treat everybody equally. But I grew up in an all-white community, so I never saw my parents interact with people of color. It wasn't intentional on their part, we just literally did not know any.

[00:08:49] As I grew older and started to notice, well why is there so much racial inequality in our society? The story I got back was we used to have terrible racism in our society, but then there was the civil rights movement led by Dr. King, who is wonderful. And now opportunities are distributed equally. And some families, like ours, choose to work really hard, and that's why we're in our situation. And other families choose not to, and that's why they're in their situation. And no recognition of all the racial wealth accumulation strategies that my grandparents had access to that other families did not have access to.

And it's undoubted, my grandparents, great-grandparents, they worked their tails off. They were farmers, they were the general contractors. But everything that they did, they had access to because they were white. And other families did not have access to that. And all of that magically lands on me, and I have no idea that racism played a role in that. And I'm sure probably they weren't racist either, I don't think they harbored.. I think that's where we get confused about what racism is.

Racism is a system of privilege and wealth accumulation. It is not a personal fault. And I think that's where white people start to have the breakdown because they associate racism with being a bad person. And I am not a bad person; I'm an ethical person, I'm a kind person. I am all these things that are good, so therefore I can't possibly be racist without understanding. But when you exclusively associate with white Americans and maybe a few Asian Americans, and when you do all these different things. Who we who we believe when we serve on a jury, who we socialize with, where we send our kids to school, where we live, who we hire, who we promote, who we listen to.

[00:11:11] Yes, you are racist; because you are perpetuating white supremacy in all those daily interactions, in all those little decisions that cumulate to the situation that we are now in. And I think that's where the breakdown occurs, is that they say, "I'm not racist," because they think that racism is to harbor ill-will toward black people. But we all have extremely deep-seated, unconscious bias that has been intentionally manipulated for us to fear black people. And if we don't recognize that and start to work on it, we just keep perpetuating it. I'm sorry, I'm going on and on.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:06] Yeah, I am totally on board with you and everything that you're saying. And then my next question is so then, what? And I know you speak a lot to white women, and I want to get more into why it is that focus on that group. But let's say you're a white person and you're like okay I see what Karen is saying, that there is a system set up that is there to make things easier or make things more challenging, depending on the color of your skin. And I am part of that system, but I am just one person. How do I fix it, what do I do?

Karen Fleshman: [00:12:50] Oh my God, I love that question. And I will say this, if you are a white person and you want to become a radicalized white supremacist, you have 18 bazillion, right? You've got your InfoWars, you got your Breitbart, you've got StormFront, all these places to go. But if you are that white person that's like, I think there might be something wrong, where do you go? I think this is a really bad problem. And what I would say to that person is that it's about mindfulness and changing your heart and your mind, the way that your mind works to come in alignment with each other. And then paying attention to these everyday interactions; things are happening all the time.

And I think that because our brains are not designed to handle the way we are just bombarding them with so much information, like social media and online. We need to pause (I like your pause thing), take some time, pause, slow the heck down, spend some time in nature, get really quiet, and really start to think about why do I have these beliefs? Where did they originate, what kind of narrative about race did I grow up learning? And how am I demonstrating that in my daily interactions? And then start to change; start to intentionally seek out and develop relationships with the people against whom you're biased.

[00:14:51] All the literature on unconscious bias says that the way to get rid of it is to start to supplant all those negative stereotypes with actual relationships with people that you know and care about. And then we're not dehumanizing people based on race, then we are re-humanizing them and we can start to recognize things. And in the building of those relationships, we also start to share social capital, which is a big part of this.

Like if a white friend invites me to any kind of social event, their kid's birthday, a barbecue, a networking event, 9 times out of 10 90% of the people there are white, with maybe a few Asian Americans. If a woman of color invites me to a networking event, 9 times out of 10 I'm one of maybe 2 white women at the networking event. So we have to get to know each other because in these social settings is where we're exchanging all this social capital that is also really leading to the wealth inequality, right? How did you get your kid into that school? My company has an awesome opening I think you'd be perfect for. Oh, can you help my kid get an internship at your company? Whatever it is, that's where these things are happening. So if there are no people of color present, then we are perpetuating the racial wealth gap in these social settings. And then the next step beyond that of the building of the relationship is to really take a look at, you know people are like systemic racism, institutional racism, it's out of my hands. Bullshit, okay? Institutions and systems are created by people.

[00:16:52] So look at whatever sphere of influence you have; it could be your kid's school, it could be your workplace, it could be your faith-based organization. Whatever it is, how does racial inequity show up in this organization and what am I going to do? Am I going to change where we're recruiting positions for, apply the Rooney Rule in recruiting? Whatever it is, each of us can do something that is going to move us toward racial equity. And that's how these systems are going to change. The people in power in these systems could not give a hoot, they have absolutely zero interest in changing them. I mean, I'm really so down on the whole Diversity and Inclusion profession. And I feel sorry for my friends, I have many, many friends who are heads of diversity for organizations. It's an extremely stressful and isolating job because, in the end, very few companies have any interest in actually changing this. It's going to take a groundswell of people saying no this is unacceptable and this has to change.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:14] Yeah. And I often find that those people that are responsible or put in charge of diversity and inclusion get scapegoated. Because it's like, well yes it's true that all of our incoming group of new hires is white, but that woman of color over there was supposed to fix this whole diversity thing. So why isn't this happening?

Karen Fleshman: [00:18:38] Yeah it's all her fault, right? Meanwhile, she's looking at them like, I told you what needs to change and y'all don't want to do anything. So don't scapegoat and isolate me. And that's why the role of the white ally in the workplace is so important because the poor woman of the color head of Diversity and Inclusion needs real supporters pushing for her to be listened to and for actual change to happen.

[00:19:31] And you asked why do I focus so much on white women? It's many, many reasons; I do believe that white women are sexism's number one tool. Because white men use white women to maintain racism, and we cannot end sexism without ending racism. But no matter how many times black women have tried to tell us this, for centuries and centuries we're like, "Oh no no no, we must end sexism first." And we remain factionalized as women, and this is how sexism just keeps going and going and going.

[00:20:23] That's part of it. I also think white women in the workplace can be very harmful to other white women; I've been harmed by white women in the workplace, as well as to women of color. They're not leveraging their positions of power within the workplace to open up opportunities for other women; they view other women as threats, and they don't ally with the women of color in the workplace. And this is why we don't ascend. We cannot ascend if we remain divided, we only ascend when we unite and when we have the numbers to actually transform this. So I firmly believe it is in white women's self-interest to get over our racism, unite with women and men of color, and really take on the inequality in the workplace.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:23] I think how this normally shakes out though is you have a bunch of white males on a board or some executive committee and they're like oh, we need a little bit of diversity so we're going to open one seat up. So now you have all the people of color and all the women competing for that one seat. And when you get into that one seat, you don't want to be like hey can you pull up some extra chairs here? Because you don't want to be thrown out of the group. Because I think the perception is that then the other men in the room will say, we'd be happy to, you can surrender your seat.

Karen Fleshman: [00:21:58] Right. And they intentionally seek out people with the Clarence Thomas viewpoint for that role. Like we just want you for the photo opportunity, but we don't really want you to change anything. And that's kind of an unfair characterization, there are plenty of people in that one seat who don't have the Clarence Thomas viewpoint. I agree with you, but people have to take some risk. We only have one life, are we going to allow this inequity to just keep going? Or do we actually care about our children? Do we actually care about this more than we care about our own narrow, short-term self-interest?

And people have to take some risk and they have to make other people uncomfortable. All of this gets perpetuated because, well making so-and-so feel uncomfortable we're putting so-and-so on the spot. Who cares?! Go for it! You know what I mean? And if you wind up losing your job, I think you have a lot to be proud of. Look at the woman from Uber (whose name is eluding me) who memorialized all of the terrible things that were happening, and then found another job and went public with her memo. Look at all the change that has been spawned from that one blog post. Or look at Leslie Miley not signing the nondisclosure agreement about why he left Twitter, saying he mentioned in front of an all-hands engineering meeting, "What are we doing about diversity?" And the head of engineering turned to him and said, "Well diversity is important, but we're not going to lower the bar."

[00:24:07] How much of an impact did his going public with that have? And it's not like these people are now destitute, because you become like a paragon. Look at Ellen Pao; you become a role model for other people. So I think those are the people that we need to highlight and uplift and support when they're going through this. I am friends with one of the plaintiffs in one of these horrible Silicon Valley sexual harassment cases, which we can get into another conversation about how it's Asian American women who are being targeted for the sexual harassment in Silicon Valley.

[00:24:54] It is emotional to be a whistleblower; it is extremely difficult. So when women are bold enough to do these things, we need to be by their sides, holding their hands and supporting them in doing this, because it does take a lot of courage. But that's who makes change, the meek don't make change. The bold do. And I want to encourage everyone listening to this to be as bold as they can be.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:28] I love that. I want to go back to something that you just said a moment ago because it comes up for me all the time; that idea of "we're not going to lower our standards." I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard this, because I will be at some conference somewhere and I'll see a sea of white male speakers, all the "manals." And I'll be like, hey you have a diversity and inclusion issue here. And they will say, well we wanted to have the best or most qualified speakers. And it drives me crazy, I mean it's frankly insulting. Like how dare you, how can you think that? But where does that idea come from, that we're only going to pick the best people, and the best people happen to be only white men? And also, how do you respond to that?

Karen Fleshman: [00:26:29] Well you know, our society is very intentionally set up that way. You look at the Declaration of Independence where it says, "All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," then 30 lines below it it says, "The merciless Indian savages whose known rule of warfare is the destruction all ages, races, and sexes." So it's in the founding documents. Because when they were talking about all men, they were talking about white men who were landowners, and many of whom were slave owners. This is who the United States has always been designed to serve. I mean, look at the U.S. Senate. And I really do think that the rise of 45 is white men's freaking out about the demographic change. They're like, oh my god we are going to ban Muslims, we're going to build a wall, we're going to do everything in our power because our numbers are dwindling and we have to go into battle to preserve our power.

[00:27:56] It's this zero-sum game notion of power where only we can have power, and if we were to share power with other people that would mean there's less power for us. So I think this whole, "these are the best people," is the grassroots manifestation of that and the accumulation of privilege and status conferred upon white men. Well, of course, they went to Stanford, and of course, their IPO was successful and now they're millionaires; all these things without any recognition of the fact that all of this success was totally weighted in their favor because of their status as white men, to begin with.

[00:28:47] And this notion that everything they accumulated is to their own individual merit, and their own individual intelligence, to their own individual work. And this notion of rugged individualism is such an important narrative in American history, and it's completely inaccurate. But try convincing them of any of it. They literally don't see women and people of color as fully human; they don't see them as their equal. So it's very difficult for them to imagine that a woman of color or man of color has a viewpoint that could possibly be as intelligent or as insightful as they are because they don't see them as fully human.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:40] Right. Or if they are going to choose someone that's a person of color or a woman, then the person has to be so incredibly exceptional. It's not enough that you went to Harvard and Yale, you must have clerked for a Supreme Court Justice. It's just all the nonsense, and it happens so often. And I always struggle with what do I say? What do I say that isn't going to make the person feel defensive?

Karen Fleshman: [00:30:19] Listen, I just troll the hell out of it. I quote them, I make fun of them, and then at the end I write a blog post about it. Because honestly, I don't care about making them feel defensive. That's my style, other people have different styles, but I am so tired. And also quite honestly, these "manals" or the white woman equivalent, it's just boring. It's completely irrelevant. You're only talking to other people with your shared life experience, you know what I mean? There are no real learnings to be had there. So those are the types of things that I like to point out.

[00:31:13] But if you look at some of my blog posts, I wrote one after going to a UCLA Anderson Women Lead conference about how you can't throw a women's empowerment event and only focus on white women. Especially if you're UCLA! But we're so in our little bubble that we don't recognize this until somebody points it out. My style of pointing it out is not very gentle, other people's is more gentle. I think we all have to do what works for us.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:52] Yeah. For me, it's a constant trial and error. Sometimes I say, okay I am going to write an article about this conference where it's a sea of white men speakers; I'm going to write an article about you on Above the Law and call you out on your bullshit. And then they will issue a non-apology and basically, say, but we're not going to lower our standards.

Karen Fleshman: [00:32:24] Oh yeah, that's what UCLA did. I started tweeting, it's noon and we haven't heard from a single woman of color at this conference, unacceptable. So then UCLA Anderson tweets back, oh my god you're 100% right. We should have a conversation about this. And then they never actually follow up to have a conversation. Again, they honestly don't give a hoot but they just don't want to publicly make it seem like they didn't acknowledge the criticism. So just keep at it Jeena, just keep at it. And you don't have to do it all the time either. Sometimes we're tired and we don't have to fight this battle every single day, you have to practice some self-care in there too. But when it does feel right and we're feeling bold, I say go for it.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:20] Right. And also, I will say it's exhausting to be the woman of color in the room that's constantly the one that's pointing it out. I'll have other white friends tweet at me and say, oh look at this "manal", expecting me to do their job. And I'm like no, you call them out on their bullshit; that's not my job. But somehow they think that's now my job, to call out all the "manals." It's like no, you can also take part in this movement.

Karen Fleshman: [00:33:49] Since they obviously only want to listen to white men, wouldn't it be more effective for a white man to call them out on it? Use our privilege, use our power; that is something that we can use. Sometimes I think I shouldn't comment on something because this is for a person of color to comment on - no it's not. Calling white people out on their bullshit is white people's 100% prerogative. Go for it.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:33] Yeah. What I have heard, and I've had this conversation with several white men, is that they feel uncomfortable saying there are no women or there are no people of color sitting around the table. Because then the room, whoever's sitting around the room, is going to look at them and say, "Well what do you care? You have a seat."

Karen Fleshman: [00:34:54] Well yeah, that's what this is all about; making people feel uncomfortable, including ourselves. When you start to go down this path it is not a path of comfort, because white people want nothing to do with you. And then a lot of people of color, because this is such a very sensitive, longstanding, painful thing. When white people start to engage in it, then you get a backlash from people of color too, who don't trust you or who don't think you're engaging in it in the right way. Which I totally welcome, but some white people are like, oh my god why did I do this? Now I've alienated both the white people and the people on whose behalf I was trying to be an advocate.

My whole thing is, apologize if you've made a mistake. Take ownership of it, learn from it, but don't stop; just keep going. There are people of color who are always going to be offended, there were some people of color who were mad at the video plea I made for white women. They were saying it should have been done by a woman of color, you know why are you making this video? My whole thing is, just like everybody else, white people can't be who they don't see. So I'm going to keep raising my profile. We don't have a single example, there is not a white woman celebrity, executive elected official, we do not have a single example of a household name white woman who can be a role model of what it is to be an anti-racist white woman.

And so I'm going to keep raising my profile because I want to encourage many, many people to come on this path. Is everything I'm doing 100% right? No. I'm a human being, I'm making mistakes left and right. But I want to encourage 10% of my white millennials, 10% of Generation Z, 10% of white women; if we can flip those people (and we have the numbers) we can actually have an anti-racist generation. And that's what's going to transform our society. That's what I'm trying to do, is build a movement that's big enough to have a transformative impact.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:30] Powerful message. Karen, for the folks that are listening to the show and want to learn more about you and your work, where is the best place for them to do that?

Karen Fleshman: [00:37:42] RacyConversations.com, there's a contact me form on there. I do workshops on unconscious bias, microaggression, sexual harassment. I'm an attorney admitted in New York, so I'm able to do California-compliant sexual harassment training. I love to work with a company to facilitate the creation of their harassment policy, and then train everybody up in the company. I also give talks and I host a lot of events around interracial sisterhood, and I'm super passionate about stopping Cavanaugh; I wish we had time to talk about that.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:24] I might have to have you back to chat again now.

Karen Fleshman: [00:38:27] Yes! If you are in a red state and you have a women's group, a young people, a group of people of color, I want to come to your state and talk to you about what we can and must do to stop the Cavanaugh appointment. It is the number one threat to every marginalized group in this society, we have to stop this appointment. So please contact me and I would love to meet you and to work with you.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:58] Karen, thank you so much for being with me today.

Karen Fleshman: [00:39:00] Oh my god, Jeena thank you. I'm delighted and I can't wait to hear this, I'm so excited to listen to it.

Closing: [00:39:11] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Gifford on to compassion towards others as well as ourselves. Karen Gifford is COO of Ripple Labs, global leader on distributed financial technology. Previously, she worked in the financial industry, first as an attorney in the private sector and at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where she was Counsel and Officer in the Litigation and Enforcement Group. Alongside her legal and consulting career, Karen began meditating in a yoga tradition more than fifteen years ago, initially as a means of coping with the stress of her legal practice. Her executive coaching work incorporates meditation and mindfulness practices, placing a strong focus on the importance of inner skills such as detachment and resilience for effective leadership. She also teaches meditation, with an emphasis on bringing the insights of meditation into everyday life. Karen is active in the start-up world as a founder, investor and advisor. She holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and an A.B. from Vassar College.

Topics Covered

• Karen talks about how she began practicing compassion, how she had to reframe her outlook and definition of compassion, and why it was such a challenge at first.
• We describe what practicing compassion can look like; it's positive impacts and benefits on the self, as well as seeing the enlightened spirit inside each person.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Karen Gifford: [00:00:06] Try to see the enlightened being in every person you meet today.

Intro: [00:00:11] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:35] This is The Resilient Lawyer podcast; meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and agents of change. The Resilient Lawyer is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage.

[00:00:46] This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference. This is episode number 38 and I'm your host, Jeena Cho. In this episode I have Karen Gifford with me, and we're going to chat about compassion towards ourselves and others; which we both have struggled with it, in perhaps slightly different ways, sort of different flavors to it.

[00:01:11] So Karen, you've been meditating for about 20 years and you didn't really start to practice compassion maybe until about five, six years ago. Why was it such a challenge for you?

Karen Gifford: [00:01:25] It's a good question, why it was such a challenge for me. But compassion practice really did not seem appealing to me in any way. Like at all, for so long. And it was only really when a very close friend of mine talked to me about how meaningful it was to her, that I even really gave it a chance.

[00:01:48] Meditation was very inward and not so much-outward facing for a long, long time. And then the idea of having compassion for others, I think I framed it in a way that was maybe not accurate. And that that was part of the issue for me, was that I confused compassion with like, pity.

[00:02:22] And I really felt like you know, to me pity is sort of looking down on people and putting myself above them; and so that felt uncomfortable. I think also just temperamentally, I'm a super optimist; I like to be a doer. I think that I'm very attracted to positivity, and so compassion was problematic for me in that sense too. That it meant really looking at the dark side of life, which we all experience. So I think both things were blockers.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] So maybe we can sort of put the practice of compassion into a context. So when we're talking about compassion, can you explain what that means?

Karen Gifford: [00:03:19] Sure. So holding compassion for someone is seeing our common humanity, would be how I would now frame it. And just connecting with that. And someone may be in a very different circumstance from myself, but I can still imagine how I might feel in that situation. And I certainly had analogous challenges and struggles. And at the end of the day, we're all human beings faced with this world that ends in death, that inevitably has suffering; that is mysterious and that is wondrous, but sometimes it's also baffling. And that human condition is something that also connects us all.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:11] Why was the compassion practice so unappealing initially?

Karen Gifford: [00:04:17] I really do think it had to do with being open to that darker side of life, and really recognizing that this is something that we all face; that it is part of the human condition. Maybe (this is just kind of coming up for me now as I'm thinking about it) I think another aspect of my resistance to compassion practice was having a concern about what I would have described as wallowing and suffering. Like oh you know, these bad things happen in life, people face challenges, they have heartbreak, there's tragedy; but why spend a lot of time focusing on that?

[00:05:02] You know, the reality is we do face those things. And whether we spend a lot or a little of our conscious time focusing on them, we still have to integrate those experiences. We still have to rise to challenges that come up, you can't just react by pushing them away. And yeah, I was very comfortable pushing them away for a very long time.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:27] Yeah, and I feel like the compassion practice kind of shines light on different parts of yourself in a way that I wasn't expecting. So when I took the compassion cultivation training class, one of the exercises the teacher asked us to do was, when you're walking through a Safeway or your local grocery store to just randomly look at strangers and just wish them well. So you would just silently say something like, "May you be happy," or just kind of recognizing that common humanity. And I remember being like, what?! Why would anyone do that?!

[00:06:04] That is just a crazy practice, I do not understand this practice at all. And then I started to sort of notice the resistance and it's like, okay why am I so resistant to just wishing others well? And I think part of it was you know, if you're sort of wishing others well you have to sort of then notice other people. Where most the time we sort of walk through life with blinders on, where we never really notice the cashier at our local grocery store. Where all the people, we can sort of walk around in this tunnel vision.

[00:06:39] I was very comfortable living in that tunnel vision image of the world, you know?

Karen Gifford: [00:06:45] Right, people can't be cardboard cut-outs anymore.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:48] Yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:06:49] If you're relating to them at deeper level, they have to become 3-D. Yeah, no that's a great point. That's a great point.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:59] Yeah and also I think part of it is I didn't want to really notice other people in that way. And also I just felt like, oh like that's going to make me go soft. I don't know, I just felt like it would somehow make me sort of lose my edge. If I became that compassionate towards others, I would become like those bleeding heart, touchy-feely humans; and I am not that.

Karen Gifford: [00:07:26] Right. No, I mean I think that's what I was getting at a little bit when I was saying I felt like this would be somehow like wallowing in sadness, right? Like you know, if you do that where is that going to lead? It's not going to get your brief written.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:44] Totally. So you had a conversation with your friend about compassion, and then how did the compassion practice start to get folded into your life? What did that look like?

Karen Gifford: [00:07:56] My friend told me about doing a practice really, really similar to what you've just described, about offering good wishes to someone, you know a stranger in a storm. She did it on public transportation on the bus, she would pick one person to send good wishes to everyday. And then she was saying how that really lightened her whole day, like she'd get to work and feel so much lighter and happier than she was used to.

[00:08:24] So I think just hearing that from her, then I started trying it a little bit. At the time she said that to me I was taking a yoga class, and the yoga teacher said something like, "Try to see the enlightened being in every person you meet today." And I didn't really know what that meant, but it was kind of inspiring too; that there is an enlightened being inside each of us was a pretty interesting thought. So I started by sort of combining that, like trying to see the light in each person that I met and also wishing them well.

[00:09:08] And it was very palpably different. If I did that for a little bit in my morning routine, just strangers who I encountered sending them good wishes in that way. I definitely noticed that it re-framed the day in a very nice way.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:26] Yeah, and I think I've been really surprised by the positive impact it's had on me. And I think this is something that I wasn't expecting, I think if I'm doing compassion practice towards others I thought somehow it would benefit them. But I wasn't expecting the benefit that it had on me, like what you're saying. And in that class, one of the things is that you find sort of, a stranger but like someone that you see on a semi-regular basis. Like the cashier at your local grocery store or the bank teller or whoever. And so I picked this guy, this cashier that I see all the time at our local Safeway.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:06] You know and he's just like a, very like friendly person so I always sort of noticed him. But you know now I would see him and I would do my like, be happy or whatever the little saying is. And, I don't know, it just like really..

[00:10:21] It was so funny because you know I hate making small-talk with strangers, it makes me feel anxious and I feel really uncomfortable. But that really dissipated once I sort of picked him as my object to offer compassion to, And you know, once I saw he had a wrist brace I took notice of that and we had a conversation about it. And a few weeks later he didn't and I also noticed that.

[00:10:45] And then once I was at our community garden and I was gardening, and I heard his voice. And I was like, this is so weird I'm hearing Art's voice. And so I walked over and I saw he was coaching the little girl's basketball team. So the next time I saw him at Safeway I was like, "Hey I saw you coaching your girl's basketball team." And he's like, "Yeah, I've been doing it for like 10 years, and I coach like four different leagues." And so I feel like now I have this little insight into this person's life that I wouldn't ever have before.

[00:11:19] And you know, I mean I feel like it's somehow made my life feel a little bit richer and a little bit fuller, just by sort of noticing this one particular person in a very unexpected ways.

Karen Gifford: [00:11:38] Well what comes up for me when you say this is what you have said many times, and it's just a terrific insight. Or you know, certainly not one that I had had or thought about; is that whatever you're sending out into the world, whether it's if you're angry or compassionate or whatever it is, you're the one who's feeling it.

[00:12:00] And so, you can't be angry at somebody without the anger being in you. And you can't be compassionate toward someone without all of those good feelings and good wishes being in you. So, it stands to reason that taking a stance of compassion towards other people would have good effects for yourself.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:23] Yeah. I remember this one woman in class, in the compassion class, talking about how she would have to sit in traffic a lot, like you know many of us do living in the Bay Area. And so when she was stuck in traffic she would pick one of the cars that's surrounding her car and she would start doing compassion practice. And she was like, she came into class so excited one day and she was like, I don't think about how awful it is to sit in traffic. And she's like, now it's an opportunity to practice compassion towards this stranger, and it completely changed her relationship to sitting in traffic.

Karen Gifford: [00:12:56] Oh my goodness, I have to try that.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:02] Which, you know I feel like that's a higher level, but yeah. But I think you have a choice, right? In every moment, you have a choice. You can either be like, super angry and frustrated and pissed off that you have to sit in traffic.

[00:13:16] Or I don't know, maybe you don't do compassion practice, but I think there is, right? Like you're actually sharing this common human experience with other people that are sitting in traffic with you. Because we are literally all in the same boat, like sitting in traffic with you.

Karen Gifford: [00:13:30] And she saw it as an opportunity, which is really awesome. Like you're sitting in traffic and instead of going grumble grumble, you're like oh boy.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:41] Yeah, yeah. I think that's a great thing to practice whenever you're standing in a line you know, not just in traffic but like standing in long grocery lines, or just standing in queue somewhere, anywhere.

Karen Gifford: [00:13:55] No, that's a great idea.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:58] Do you still do compassion practice in your meditation?

Karen Gifford: [00:14:02] On and off. It depends; I don't know what's going on for me. One thing that I do notice, is it's a really nice thing to do (for me) towards the end of my meditation. Like maybe even after the bell goes off, just to spend a moment sending good wishes. What I tend to do is first think of somebody (this is relatively classic) who I love a lot. And then think about someone who's more just generic.

[00:14:43] And I know traditionally then you're supposed to think of somebody who is challenging for you, but I don't always do that. Those challenging people I tend to need to really consciously engage that like, oh I'm going to have compassion for this person; I'm going to see our common humanity. It's you know, not something that just instinctively comes up for me. But you know, who knows where my practice will end up going.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:17] I love that openness.

Karen Gifford: [00:15:20] One point that does come up when you're saying this is, one thing I would encourage anybody listening to do is to have an open mind about some of these practices that seem non-intuitive. You opened this segment by talking about the fact that I did not do compassion practice for probably 15 years of my meditation practice. And yet, it ended up being something that is very meaningful to me. So circling back to some of the practices that you didn't like when you first started meditating, and just you know trying them on again and seeing if they fit now is a really useful thing to do. You know, it keeps your practice fresh.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:02] Yeah. And I don't think there's any need to like, force yourself to get to the next level.

Karen Gifford: [00:16:07] Oh absolutely.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:10] I think what you're talking about, like starting with someone that you love. I mean, you can spend a long time just doing that. And then you can then move to that sort of neutral person and spend a long time doing that. And I don't think there's any need to hurry through and try to get to the most difficult person in your life, to offer compassion to.

Karen Gifford: [00:16:29] Right, it's a practice, right? So you can keep practicing.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:37] Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please consider telling a friend. That's really the only way we have to grow the show. Also, why not leave us a review on iTunes? It only takes a minute and really does help with the visibility and promotion of the show. If you have any questions, email me at questions@resilientlawyer.com or you can find me on Twitter @Jeena_Cho or @AnxiousLawyer.

Closing: [00:17:02] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Alexis Robertson on to talk about the balance of self-care: remaining dutiful to responsibilities without martyring yourself for your work.

Alexis is a lawyer turned Diversity and Inclusion professional. She attended the University of Michigan law school and practiced for 7 ½ years at Kirkland & Ellis and Seyfarth Shaw, before leaving practice to become a legal recruiter and subsequently a Diversity and Inclusion professional at Baker & McKenzie. Outside of work, if Alexis isn't listening to a podcast or wrangling her two sons, she can probably be found at her local pilates studio.

Topics Covered

• How big firm lawyers are like pro-athletes and as such, we have to focus on our personal health to perform at our peak.
• The benefits of receiving formal instruction in meditation (versus self-guided), and the importance of finding a way to meditate that is right for you.
• The role of meditation/self-care when you have children, and how it helps with combating the knee-jerk reactive mind in stressful situations.
• Why meditation/mindset is just as important as physical fitness and nutrition.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Dineen Pashoukos Wasylik on to talk about being an active mother and lawyer, and how utilizing the morning hours can revolutionize your days and allow you to maximize your billable hours.

Dineen is the founder of DPW Legal in Tampa, Florida, a boutique intellectual property and appellate litigation firm where her team helps entrepreneurs protect everything that they have worked so hard to create and protects litigants in appellate courts. She is the only lawyer in Florida who is board certified both in intellectual property and in appellate practice. Dineen's husband is also a lawyer-entrepreneur, and they have two teen sons.

Topics Covered

• What her self-care practice looks like and what willing yourself to be a morning person can look like so you can carve out time for your personal health.
• Fighting the sedentary lawyer nature and utilizing exercise as a key element to mental clarity.
• Putting yourself first while parenting teens.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

Hi everyone!

Sorry for the long absence. In this episode, I'll talk about what's next for The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Plus, you can listen to the first 20 minutes of The Anxious Lawyer book! It's narrated by myself and my co-author, Karen Gifford. You can purchase the entire book in hardcover, kindle or Audible over on Amazon. http://amzn.to/2l5HNQu

Questions? Comments? Drop me an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com

Sound Credit: http://www.bensound.com/

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Mike Ethridge, attorney from Charleston, SC, champion of wellness for lawyers talks about his journey from burnout to wholeness.

Topics covered:

• Working with negative thoughts
• The importance of mindfulness
• The importance of self-care
• Letting go of the “what if” game and unhelpful, unproductive thinking

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Check out this episode!

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

In this episode, I had the pleasure of talking to Salem Afangideh. Salem is an Attorney at Law (also known as the Problem Solving Ninja) in Montgomery, Alabama. She practices yoga daily so she can stay sane while running her many roles, which include practicing law, running an organization, and coaching law students with grace and passion.

Topics Covered

• Salem explains her story and how graduating from law school at the age of 20 helped shape and define her personally, spiritually, and professionally, as well as how she combatted the shame of being a young, black, female attorney in the U.S.
• The idea of belonging as a POC and immigrant lawyer and the necessity of the conversation to make sure everyone feels a sense of belonging.
• Her thoughts on being a black yoga instructor, how teaching yoga and its practices have shaped the foundation of her law practice, and her experience with her series "Black Zen" that helps bridge the gap between women of color and the yoga world.
• How she learned to love meditation through yoga, how she remains in a place of mindfulness, and the stifling nature of perfectionism.

You can learn more about Salem and her work at:

Her Website : www.salemafangideh.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Today's show is sponsored by Spotlight Branding. Spotlight Branding works exclusively with solo and small law firms to brand them as trusted, credible experts, and help them stand out in a crowded marketplace. Their services include web design, social media, video marketing, and more.

Salem Afangideh: [00:00:29] That space of allowing and becoming and just, with being a young lawyer I think one of the biggest things my yoga practice has taught me is just to allow; to allow things to happen, to become, to grow into what I want.

Intro: [00:00:44] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:08] Hello my friends, thanks for joining us today. In this episode I am delighted to have Salem Afangideh.

Salem Afangideh: [00:01:16] Yay you got it!

Jeena Cho: [00:01:16] It that good? Okay. Salem is an attorney at law, also known as "problem solving ninja" in Montgomery, Alabama. She practices yoga daily so that she can stay sane and able to effectively handle the many roles, practicing law, running an organization, coaching law students, with grace and passion.

[00:01:39] But before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a six minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's also a preview for my new online course, Mindful Pause. So often (and I'm sure we're going to talk about this today) we want to actually engage in activities that are healthy for our bodies and our minds, but it's so hard to fit it into our really, really busy schedules. So I wanted to create a course that every lawyer can do, no matter how busy their schedule. And just little bite-size practices can make all the difference in the world.

[00:02:18] Head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more, or check out the show notes. And with that here's Salem.

[00:02:25] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer show, I am so happy to have you here.

Salem Afangideh: [00:02:27] Thank you Jeena, I'm so excited to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:34] And you have just such an interesting journey, so I want to start from the beginning, where were you born? And yeah, just tell us your story.

Salem Afangideh: [00:02:48] Yeah so I was born in Nigeria, that is in West Africa. My dad is a lawyer and my mom was actually in law school when she was pregnant with me, so I kind of was born into this legally-minded family. So law just kind of became the thing that I grew up seeing. And I really say that law chose me as a 5 year old because I just loved it and I pushed myself and I just could not wait to become an attorney. I just knew that it would be challenging and fun and good.

[00:03:24] And I just had that intuitive knowing and so even when my dad (is a practicing attorney) kind of cautioned me a little bit about law and said you know, this is really stressful. For me just always was like, this is one of the things that will really define me. And I think I knew that at a really early age, and so I just pushed myself into the legal field. I'm actually 22 years old as you know, but I have been practicing law for two years. So I really did like, speed through school because I knew that this is what I wanted to do.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:01] Wait a second here, I have to stop you for a moment. So how did that happen, did you start college when you were like six?

Salem Afangideh: [00:04:09] Yes, well actually in Nigeria, I think this is something that I'm always so grateful for, in Nigeria our school systems are more ability-based than age-based. And so you're allowed to skip grades, kids are allowed to like just test out of certain grades, depending on their abilities for those grades. And so, I was able to skip out of a few grades in elementary school and so I think I started our seventh grade equivalent when I was seven. And so I like, sped through elementary school, skipped out on a few grades, and then graduated from our 12th grade equivalent at 13 and started college at 14 here in the U.S. I finished college at 17, started law school at 17, finished law school at 20, and I've been practicing since 20.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:59] Wow, that's such a wild story. I actually did not know that you were 22. I'm sort-of having a mind blown moment. That's amazing.

Salem Afangideh: [00:05:11] Thank you, yeah. I don't really talk about it a lot, but I think lately I've just been recognizing that it is a part of me. In some ways, my story has been like reclaiming the shame that's associated with being a black female lawyer and young.

[00:05:26] I'm just saying, "Hey! This is who I am. I'm black, I'm female, I am a lawyer and I'm very young but I also am really professional. I know what I do and I know what I bring to the table."

Jeena Cho: [00:05:36] I want to actually pause for a moment and just ask you about that shame, because I mean to me like none of those things are anything that should have shame behind it. So say more about that.

Salem Afangideh: [00:05:46] Well I grew up in Nigeria, so I grew up seeing lawyers that looked like me. But then I go to the U.S. and I moved to Alabama and I didn't see people that were young in law, people that were black female in law. And so for me, coming out of law school or navigating that just felt like, because there are not many people doing it there's something wrong with me for doing it. And so it was kind of an internal thing in my head that I wouldn't have said aloud that that's what it was. But there was just so much shame, especially in the fields of law that I practice, because I just often seemed to be the only person in the room that was black, female, young and also pushing in this field.

[00:06:33] So it just, for me that created a feeling of, "You're not enough, you don't know what you're doing, you're lacking in some way.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:40] Yeah, and that feeling of not enough or that I don't belong is so incredibly painful, especially when it's your profession and we identify so much of who we are with what we do. And I can so relate to that.

Salem Afangideh: [00:06:57] I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way, because I've had to work really hard at it and just kind-of reclaim and not try to hide. I think like for people of color, there's this thing we do where we know how to "sound white." So you would "whiten" your resume, and this was advice that I got in law school which was whiten your resume a little bit, don't make it too black, so that you can go to certain places and do certain things.

[00:07:28] And so like, even with being a woman, I would apologize for certain things. You know, if I was having a bad day I would go out of my way to make it feel like I wasn't having a bad day so people would not assume that you know, she's just on her period. You know, all the side comments that people make to female attorneys. And so, in so many ways I felt like I had to overcompensate because I felt like I began from a position of black in the profession.

[00:07:55] And I think that's why traveling back to Nigeria is always so grounding to me, because there I get to see young, black, female attorneys and that's the norm; that's a norm back there. So for me, whenever I feel shame in that area I can go back to hey, this is this is where I come from, this is not my reality. Even though it feels this way, this is not actually the truth. So I can go back to the truth of you know, there's nothing wrong with me.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:26] Right, I mean that must be such an amazing experience, to able to just be with other people that you know, look like you, can relate to your life experience, and just feel at home. Yeah I mean, I've certainly had the experience of walking into a courtroom and having the judge look at me and go, "Oh, you must be the Asian language interpreter." Which by the way is like, the most ridiculous thing to ever say, right?

[00:08:50] Because there's at least 50 main languages in the entire continent of Asia, and probably like 2,000 dialects. And it's like, "Yes, Your Honor, I speak every single one of them." And I just want to be like really? That's so...yeah.

[00:09:04] And I feel like people say things like that and they don't mean it to be cruel or unkind, but I've also been mistaken for the secretary. It's like, you're never mistaken for the lawyer. Whereas I think if you're just a white male in a suit and you walk into a courtroom, everyone will just assume that you're a lawyer. it kind-of really just puts you behind the starting line.

Salem Afangideh: [00:09:29] Yeah that was my experience. My first year (of course I look like a baby, I look young) I would go to the courtroom and in my first year out, I worked at a firm. And the attorney in the first six months made me go to over 70 court cases. Because she wanted to make me feel confident, and so she just put me out there. And a lot of those cases in a lot of rural cities where the judges knew the attorneys, and so I was the new kid on the block coming in. And I got mistaken so many times for the defendant or I wouldn't be allowed to go to where the attorneys were sitting until I showed my bar card, like this small version of my bar I.D. card.

[00:10:08] There was just so much of that that just made me feel so out of place. And I think like relating that to someone like my dad, who's been practicing law for 30-40 years, that was just never his reality, because he practiced in Nigeria. And so I would say those things to him, and he did not have the capacity to understand that this is what it was about.

[00:10:32] And he did not have the capacity to understand how that would affect me in my practice, because it just wasn't his reality. And so that gave me empathy for some of the white males that I would try to talk to about these issues, who just don't have any capacity to understand that reality because that's not their reality. Like I could see where they were coming from because in the same lane when I told my dad, who that wasn't his reality in law, he just couldn't understand why that would be a big deal or why that would make me feel lesser or inadequate.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:13] Yeah, and I almost feel like what you're talking about is such a poignant thing because I feel like that's the thing that we're all struggling with right now, just as a country. Trying to understand the experience of like, the other. I talk to people all the time about being an immigrant and just all the hardship that comes with it. Like coming into a country where you don't speak the language and just trying to share the immigrant experience and a lot of people will be like, "I don't know. I still think every undocumented immigrant should be deported." And it's like, let's start the story all over again. Like, you don't understand the hardship or just how hard my parents worked so that we could be here. And also just feeling like, do I belong? You know, do I belong in this country? It's just an interesting time as people of color to live in this country.

Salem Afangideh: [00:12:15] And I think, okay I'm sure you're familiar with Brene' Brown and her work. So she just came out with a new book called 'Braving the Wilderness' and I'm maybe on the fourth or fifth chapter but it's on belonging and I think it's so relevant to having to navigate this topic of belonging because I've just always told myself, "You don't belong." Like you don't belong "with".

[00:12:41] And in her book she kind of spins it with the idea that you don't have to find belonging in a place or with a group, you can find belonging within yourself and connect with other people. Belong "with," but being okay with not belonging "to." I think that was so comforting for me because as I've navigated the immigrant experience here you always come to the conclusion that there's so many spaces where you don't belong. So you either try to force -it finding belonging, or you just know that different parts of you will belong in different places. But all of you never fully belongs all the time in any one place.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:29] Yeah, yeah. And she talks a lot about a quote from Maya Angelou where she says something like, I don't belong anywhere. But it also means, I belong to myself. And then she says like, I truly at the end of the day, I belong to myself; and I like Maya very much. And I got just choked up hearing that because yeah, it's that sense of self-love and just feeling like you can ultimately belong to yourself. I sort of felt that way, I remember going back to Korea as an adult and being like, "Oh I don't really belong here either because other Koreans can tell that I'm not a native Korean."

[00:14:17] Even though I was born there, but I had spent like 30 years of my life in the U.S. And so I didn't really belong there, but then I don't really belong here in the U.S. either. Yeah and just reading her book made me, and I really think it's such a great read for like every lawyer. I think every single one of her books should be mandatory reading for every lawyer.

Salem Afangideh: [00:14:41] Yeah I finished "Rising Strong" last month and I was like, every lawyer needs to read this! And every time I read her book I just always think that it should be mandatory law school reading.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:52] Totally, and her research on shame was profoundly impactful to me. So maybe we can shift gears a little bit and talk about your journey to yoga. Because you know, I mean I love to go to yoga and I love doing yoga, I love practicing yoga, it's such a huge part of my life. And I can't say that I've ever had a person of color that teaches yoga, I figured you might be the first person that's a woman of color that teaches yoga. So tell me about your journey and how you ended up practicing and teaching yoga.

Salem Afangideh: [00:15:31] Yeah. So like I said, working with survivors of human trafficking really did it for me. While I was doing that work in Washington D.C., we had a studio to donate yoga services to our clients. And so part of my job was taking them to yoga every week. First I would sit out and watch them take the yoga classes and then we would debrief and talk about it. And seeing these survivors who had been through so much in life, and taking yoga and really watching how yoga was changing the way that they related with each other and the way that they view themselves and their bodies made me feel like, okay this might do something to me.

[00:16:10] And so one time when they went, I went in and I tried yoga. And I remember just in the middle of the yoga class thinking to myself (because I was the only person of color in the class apart from one of our survivors, who was a person of color) do black yoga? And in my head it was such a legitimate question because I just had never seen any people of color that did yoga. And so in my reality, it just wasn't a thing that we did; it wasn't for us, we didn't really have access to it. I mean I had never heard of yoga growing up in Nigeria, it just wasn't a thing. But I ended up loving it, I loved it so much. I loved being present in my body, I loved having my mind shut down. Because I think as lawyers we have this thing where our minds are constantly going.

[00:17:03] And so I loved that even though I was being trained in law school how to think differently, yoga was also teaching my mind to relax and to be present, and not to see the bad in every situation. Because I think as lawyers, that lawyer brain is always going to, what's the worst possible thing that could happen? And then I get on my yoga mat and it's like, okay, what's the best thing that happened today? So it was a tangible shift and a way for me to get away from all the things that law was teaching me that was really challenging to me, to kind of debrief and get into a rhythm that was healthy.

[00:17:40] And so like that began my journey with it, and of course yoga led to meditation, led to mindfulness, led to the whole lifestyle. But yoga was the key that unlocked that space for me and I think it's always going to be something different for different people, but yoga was just it for me. And so when I began to get certified, really I just felt like I want to take this back to my mom, I want to take this back to my sister; I want to take this back to people that would benefit from this but just don't know how to do it.

[00:18:10] So that was my driving force for learning, was I want to take this back to people who need to learn how to calm themselves and suit themselves and be present, but just have never even known that that was a possibility. And to some extent that's what I do now, so I host this series in our city called 'Black Zen,' and it's for women of color. We come together, do yoga, talk about some of the issues that face women of color in the wellness space. We typically have a nutritionist talk about diet and just helping tangibly to get into this zen space for women of color. And that's been really rewarding but I think there's just not many women of color in the yoga space, there's a little bit more now. I have connected with other women of color in D.C., New York, that are kind of infiltrating into that space, but there's just not as much representation. And I do think that, especially now with the stressors that women of color face, with the stressor that is being black in America today, I think it's definitely a necessary space that should be created. But there's just not the resources or the manpower to do it.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:29] Right, and there's almost a stereotype that the only people that can or are welcomed into that space of yoga is if you're white. I'm sorry, I think that you have to be skinny to do yoga. That's the other weird thing, you pick up any yoga magazine and it's always like, beautiful white young women that are skinny. And I always kind of thought like, oh what if you're not skinny? Like would you feel welcome in that space? Probably not.

[00:19:56] Yeah. I think that's really important. And it's just one of the things that saddens me, popular media's perception of who gets to practice mindfulness, who gets to practice meditation and yoga and how it's sort of become like usurped by this particular demographic of people and which has the, whether it's intentional or unintentional, it has the impact of excluding different categories of people. I mean not just people of color, but also people that have different body sizes, shapes. Yeah and I really just want to emphasize that yoga belongs to everyone and no matter where you are in terms of your physical abilities or disabilities, you can do it.

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Salem Afangideh: [00:21:45] I think when I first started doing yoga I got toned really quickly, and I have always been on the curvier side, but I toned up really quickly. And I was very meticulous about toning; I was running and just lifting all the weights, doing all the other things. And then I realized that a lot of the people that were coming to my class didn't look like me, they were not on the skinny side and they weren't on the toned side, they just wanted to do yoga. And so part of my practice too was loving myself well enough to know that health doesn't equal skinny, right? And then letting my body do it's thing naturally, like being healthy but recognizing that my body at it's peak healthy state is not skinny. And so as I've done that work with myself, I'm more able to say to people that are interested in coming to my class, "Hey look, I'm curvy I'm not skinny, and this is what I can do." Like I can do a headstand; these are things that don't come with being skinny, they just come with flexibility. And of course there are some things that you have to be strong to do, but as you do more practices, your body just gets stronger and you're more able to do the things. But you don't get to strong until you start the practices.

[00:23:01] And so, really just encouraging people. I mean, I say it on my fliers, I say it when I'm talking to people, I go ahead and address it head on - you don't have to be a certain size to yoga. I say those things up right because I know that there are people that I thinking it, because I thought it before in certain classes. And I think that's what a lot of the studios miss out on, they think that if they just put out a flier with a skinny white girl that a curvy person of color will say, "Oh, I'm going to come to this class and I know that I'll feel alright."

Jeena Cho: [00:23:34] Right?! Clearly I belong in that class!

Salem Afangideh: [00:23:37] Your yoga space should be a place where you feel welcome, where you feel that you can breathe and not necessarily just another workout. Like I don't think of yoga as just another work out to lose weight, I think of it as holistically creating this safe space for people.

[00:23:54] And so that's something that's very important to me, is just putting it out there, creating representation in the flyers that I put out of my yoga classes of different body diversity in my clients that are practicing. Just creating those things that I know will make people feel welcome and feel like, if she can do this then I can do that.

[00:24:15] You know you don't look a certain way to do it. So really being intentional and the goal is not (you know I hear you hear this a lot, you're just trying to be politically correct) to be politically correct. The goal is to make people feel included, to make people feel welcome, to have more people find this space that could potentially kick start their wellness journey and make them live a holistically better life.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:42] Yeah, and it's interesting how diversity and inclusion has become a "PC" thing now. It's so weird. Like no, that's what we're supposed to do because it's the right thing to do, not because it's politically correct.

Salem Afangideh: [00:24:56] Yes.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:57] So I'm curious, what is that experience like, to be able to practice with other women of color and people that come with different body shapes and sizes? I just want to hear more about that.

Salem Afangideh: [00:25:10] I think it's been really fun, like we do a 50 minute flow series and then we it's typically restorative. There are times when in the winter when it's a little cold and we'll do some more heat warming practices. But for the most part it's mostly restorative and it's just, it gives me creative license to use different kinds of music and just create a space that I know will be welcoming to people of color. So I typically, it's very curated, we use a lot of like digital...like I typically know the people that are coming, so I incorporate music that I know they'll love, sounds that I know they'll love.

Salem Afangideh: [00:25:49] So it's very much tailored towards the people that show up and it's just, practicing itself has been really healing. Like I think there's a lot of humor in it, just because when you get women of color together it is going to be a lot of humor. There's humor and then there's phases where people just cry and they let themselves cry. Every time it's so different, but I just create the space and give them the freedom to express whatever it is that they need. Like I had a class where one of my ladies just did three poses, and for me that was so encouraging because I felt like I did a good job conveying that you can do what your body needs. And if that just means staying in child's pose, getting to downward dog and then getting back on child's pose; just getting, doing what your body needs and not feeling the pressure to do what everybody else is doing or and even do what I'm doing.

[00:26:43] But listening to your body. And so when I get to see women of color listening to their body or really connecting with the music because they know what this music is, or really connecting with a specific meditation mantra, it's just always so powerful.

[00:27:01] One of the mantras that we did was, we had a whole series on your body not being an instrument of sin. And there's a lot of messaging on you know, rape culture, what did women wear, just so much conveying that women's bodies are sinful. And so when we had this series, the only mantra that we used in those classes were "your body is not an instrument of sin." And because I've lived it and because I know how powerful that mantra was for me, I knew that it would be extremely powerful, but it was so powerful every time it came up and a lot of women really connected with it and were able to cry and feel the feelings, and just release shame from their bodies in ways that they didn't even know they had. It was extremely powerful and I think for me, that's what being able to teach that class allows me to do. It allows me to curate classes in the ways that I know people relate with and really be able to feel safe in.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:11] I want to come to your class! It sounds so amazing. One of the things that yoga has really taught me, which I think is so relevant for us lawyers, is that you show up on the mat as you are. Because that's the only way you can show up. But this tension between striving and trying to get into a posture. But also like, relaxing into how you are in that moment.

[00:28:36] I feel like that's such a great metaphor for practicing law, because you show up, you're prepared or unprepared whatever, you're sort of however you may be in that moment. And then there is that wanting to strive and wanting to get the right outcome for your client. But then also, needing to actually pay attention to what's happening in the moment and actually relax in that moment because stress and anxiety does nothing but actually derail your performance.

Salem Afangideh: [00:29:03] Yes. And it's actually been really helpful for me in practicing law because again that space of allowing and becoming and just with being a young lawyer. I think one of the biggest things my yoga practice has taught me is just to allow, to allow things to happen, to become, to grow into what I want.

[00:29:23] And I think of it like my journey to a headstand or just different poses that I've been working on for a while, like recognizing that I am not there, I'm not where I want to be. But every day I'm taking steps to be there, and just giving myself an open timeline to get there. Because I think with law school, we create these timelines for ourselves that work when we're still in law school.

[00:29:48] But then out in the profession, I remember one of the first cases I tried I thought it was going to be done in three months, it ended up taking a year. And I was so overwhelmed that I kept trying to make the timeline fit what I wanted it to fit. But just again, understanding that okay, this is not going to be the timeline that I expect for myself. And so my yoga practice has really benefited from me being in law, and my law practice has also benefited from you being in yoga. Because they both kind of fed into each other to make me more holistic.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:24] So you talked about earlier how you went from yoga to mindfulness to meditation. So tell me about that journey.

Salem Afangideh: [00:30:30] So yeah, so from yoga I used to hate the meditation part of yoga. Because when I first started it was all about the movement. And then I think one day it just clicked and I kind of liked it. I was like, "Oh, this feels really good. Silencing and paying attention feels really good." And so then I started to practice more, and it kind of was a flip that switched in my head for a second. Like I didn't like it and then one day I was in class in a meditation pose and I just liked it. And so that for me has just grown my meditation practice. I use Insight Timer a lot, I know you do too.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:21] Mmm hmmm, I know, we need to connect in Insight Timer and be buddies.

Salem Afangideh: [00:31:21] But I get on there probably meditate on there every day now. I just love the silence of quieting and I think a lot of the reasons why I didn't like quieting my mind or getting into meditation was because there was so much noise whenever I finally was quiet. What I realized and what I tell all my students when I teach yoga and meditation is, I think I realized this actually from my brother. So I have a 13 year old brother. And whenever I'm away from him and we don't talk a lot you know, we don't talk. But whenever I come back to him, he just he sits me down for like three hours and just goes into everything that's going on with him. So he's speed-talking, he's jumping. He was very excited.

[00:32:12] And so one day we're having one of those and I said you know, this is my mind. This is exactly what goes on in my mind when I haven't meditated for awhile. It just goes and goes and goes and I'm overwhelmed because it's like oh, my mind has finally been trying to finally quiet myself and pay attention but my mind is racing and all of these thoughts start coming up. So it's really helped me to practice on a daily basis because I don't ever want my mind to get too overwhelmed where I can't stop. And when I finally stop there's so much noise and chatter going on.

[00:32:45] And so that that has been really helpful to me, that analogy from my brother has helped me meditate more consistently, but also recognize that when I go for a few days without meditating and I come back to this space and there is just so much chatter, then that's okay. Just paying attention to what comes up and writing them down or keeping them somewhere to come back to them. But just paying attention and allowing the thoughts to come. And I think meditation kind of led to this more mindful lifestyle of where, now that I'm paying attention to what's going on in my brain, I had to pay attention to my body, I had to pay attention to where I was living, what I was eating, all the things that are mindful.

[00:33:30] So both of my grandmothers were gardeners, they loved to plant stuff. I grew up as a kid hating planting and just not wanting to be connected to the soil in any way. But I think living this more mindful practice has made me want to go back to the soil, want to go back to gardening. So it's kind of been this holistic change in my personality, what started with yoga and continued with meditation has now led to me just making more mindful choices, just paying attention. And I think at the end of the day that's how I describe mindfulness. Just paying attention to what's going on. Paying attention to what's around me, what's fueling me, what's depleting me, what's depleting the planet, what's depleting other people. And I feel like that's an internal work and when we do that within ourselves we're more able to do that with other people.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:21] Yeah, yeah, so true. Whenever I work with lawyers they'll say, "I noticed that my mind is really distracted or I'm thinking a lot when I'm meditating. Therefore I'm not doing it correctly, and I'm not going to do it anymore." Which I think is such the lawyer mindset, if I can't do it perfectly I shouldn't do it at all.

[00:34:42] And I think it's also a great way to highlight or shine a light on our default mental mechanisms that say the only way I can do something is to do it perfectly. And when it comes to something like meditation or yoga, what does that even mean to do it perfectly? I think it's a good time to pause and say where does that desire to do things perfectly come from? In what way is it helpful, and it what way is it harmful?

Salem Afangideh: [00:35:14] Ooh so I want to speak on that because one of my practices that I have that actually stemmed some mindfulness was I give myself permission to have two or three things that I really suck at. So I am really bad at painting, I suck at it but I let myself do it consistently and I think because it helps combat this idea that everything that I do has to be perfect. Because that's very damaging. We're not perfect as human beings, we're never going to achieve perfection. But with our work, I think with a lot of lawyers there's so much on the line if we make mistakes or we think there's so much on the line if we make mistakes, so we don't give ourselves room to make mistakes.

[00:36:02] And so we feel like everything has to be done perfectly and I think there's room for excellence, but I think that when we put that pressure on ourselves to be perfect in our work and we spend so much time working then that naturally translates to, well then I need to have the perfect home, I need to have the perfect finances, I need to have all these things that are perfect. And so part of my ongoing practice to combat that is just regularly practicing things that I'm not good at, and without the desire to improve and get better, just to do it because it brings me joy, even though I know that I am not good at it.

[00:36:38] So it helps me because I think perfectionism is stifling and stifling to our profession and to our mental health. Just that idea of, well if it's not going to be done perfectly it's not worth doing at all. Because there's so much that we won't have clarity on and we won't know until we take a risk. And so it makes you risk adverse, but you're also just not living up to your full potential if you're stifled by perfectionism.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:08] So I want to drill into that a little bit because when I think about doing something that I "suck" at (using my air quotation mark here) I actually have a physical reaction and I go, "Oh no I am not going to do that thing because I know I am going to suck at it. And why would I do that, why would I put myself through that when I can do that other thing that I'm excellent at it?" So how do you even begin? How do you go about overcoming, or maybe you don't need to overcome it. How did you get over that, I don't know that ick feeling like oh no, that feels awful I don't want to do it.

Salem Afangideh: [00:37:44] Yeah. Because I think the reward for me was, I think in our brains we have this reward system, and so if you've been really good at doing certain things you've been validated for your good. And so changing that reward system in my brain to validating myself or an effort rather than validating myself for perfection. And so it took doing the mind work first to actually be able to do the thing that I wasn't good at. But doing the mind work of saying, "Okay, today I showed up and showing up was enough. Today I showed up and I put in 10% of effort, and showing up and putting in 10% of effort was enough. So rather than waiting to do things right to validate ourselves, I think validating ourselves on just showing up and doing the work.

[00:38:32] And so and when I show up with a canvas and some paint and I know that this is going to suck, for me it's like okay I'm validating myself for showing up because I know in my head that this practice is going to help me overcome perfectionism, which I know in my head is not me at my best.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:50] Right. You get an A just for showing up and doing that thing. Yeah, and I think so often we don't reward ourselves for just showing up and doing the really hard thing.

Salem Afangideh: [00:39:01] Well we reward ourselves when we get the results that we want. And so even the idea of a lawyer thinking that they've failed at a particular case because they weren't able to get the results that their clients wanted. I think you do have some clients who will be very upset at you for not getting the results that they wanted. But a lot of clients also recognize that they came to you with an impossible situation and I do care.

[00:39:27] And I think for me, even with clients where I didn't really know what I was doing and they didn't really get what they wanted out of it, they've still been appreciative that I cared. And that's something I'm in control of. I'm not in control of what the other party will do, I'm not in control of what the judge will do. The only thing I'm in control of is what I do, and I know how to care and I know how to make them feel like they're human and that I'm there with them in whatever process you're navigating.

[00:39:55] And that's something that I think is part of the collective human experience that we all appreciate. And I've even flipped that on other professionals that I've hired. They may be a disappointment if I don't get the results that I desired from hiring them. But at the end of the day, I feel like I connect more with them if they care, if they were able to show up and be with me when I needed that service.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:21] I know there is just so much stuff out there that we should all be doing, we should be doing more yoga and doing more exercising and getting more walks in and taking more vitamins and eating more kale, and just sort of on and on and on and on and on. And I think sometimes we can feel sort of overwhelmed by just the list of the shoulds. So you know, suggestions on places to start or how to just integrate these little bits of practices into your daily life.

Salem Afangideh: [00:40:52] Yeah, so I would suggest just start with one thing and let that one thing build into another thing. Start with one yoga pose; start with one minute of breathing in and out, like start really small. I think the temptation for us lawyers is we are fixers naturally. And so you can analyze, okay I am not being mindful, I need to do better in this wellness practice. Give yourself a time limit of, this should take me six months. Then we try to do everything within the six months and then find that that's not working out.

[00:41:24] But I think what's more important is recognizing that this is a lifelong journey and it's a practice. It's the daily practices every day, and not the one two-hour long yoga session once a month that you do. This is a daily, and I think of a time when I had to take a break from teaching yoga and I just couldn't practice because I was burned out. And so I set a mat at the foot of my bed. So I would literally wake up and get on the mat. And my challenge was just to do one pose. And I mean I'm a yoga teacher, I know all the poses, I lead like 90 minutes flows. How do I do just one pose?

[00:42:01] But for me I knew that to get back into this practice and for it to be nurturing I couldn't lead a session, I needed to just do one thing. And so doing that one thing, like spending five minutes journaling, and it doesn't have to look pretty, just bullet points. I'm thinking this, feeling this, thinking this, feeling this, upset at this; just writing it down. I think there's so much that you could do, but what I found is things lead to other things. And when you create a little bit of room for one thing and kind of practice that one thing, when it's time for the other thing to be added that will come more naturally.

[00:42:42] And I'm a big fan of just letting things flow with ease rather than trying to force things to happen. And so just letting it flow, like really recognizing that your body knows what you need and if you're paying attention you will eventually know and listen and hear what your body is trying to communicate to you. But also just recognizing that it's a journey, you don't have to figure it all out in a year or day. You know, there's still things within my wellness journey that I'm trying to incorporate. But I just know that that will take a few more years and that's okay, because this is where I am at right now. So just recognizing that we don't have to do it all. We don't have to do all the wellness processes, but we can just pick one little one and practice it today and be consistent and then add something else.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:33] I love that, and I always tell lawyers don't try to start meditating an hour a day. Just do like six minutes a day, that's a great place to start. Yeah and that's also why I designed my course in just six minute bite sizes. Because that's really enough, like if you do six minutes every day for a month you're going to be amazed at the difference that it makes.

[00:43:55] Same thing for yoga, I feel like you can literally just do like 5-10 minutes of yoga every single day, consistently, and see huge, huge changes in your life. And just like you said, then you can add on additional healthy habits and sort of link those pieces together.

[00:44:11] Awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with us. But one final question before I let you go. The name of this part is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Salem Afangideh: [00:44:27] To me it means getting back up after you've been kicked down and I know that's the most basic thing. But there's always going to be things that kick us down, there are always going to be things that don't go as expected. And rather than trying to prevent those things from happening, because that's our profession right, we're very risk adverse. You try to prevent the risk from taking place; not living from that space. Like understanding that professionally this is what I do, but as a person my job is to just allow. And if I allow and the outcome's not favorable, I have what it takes to get back up and do something different.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:10] I love that. For the listeners out there that want to learn more about you and your work, what's the best way to get that information?

Salem Afangideh: [00:45:20] So I have a website that is kind of a comprehensive account of everything that do. I do some coaching, I do some practice. But my website is salemafangideh.com and I'm sure you'll probably put a link because nobody knows how to spell that. And I talk about mindfulness and I talk about practicing law, what it feels like to live in the skin and the reality that I live in as a black female immigrant lawyer.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:58] I love it. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Salem Afangideh: [00:46:00] Thank you, Jeena.

[00:46:07] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

We're launching Mindful Pause on June 4th. Join me for 31 days of mindfulness practice. For the first time ever, you'll get access to both the Mindful Pause program AND the Mindful Lawyers Community.

Register over at Mindful Pause and use the discount code "Podcast50" to save $50 off of registration.

You can find more information here: http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause-2/

In this episode, I am excited to have Charlotte Tschider on to talk about how the concept of having work and personal life being two completely separate and isolated entities could be a dated way of seeing things.

Charlotte is an Affiliated Professor at the Mitchell Hamline School of Law's Health Law Institute and Cybersecurity and Privacy Law Programs and Owner/Principal for Cybersimple Security, a privacy and cybersecurity consulting firm. In her spare time, she writes on law, health, and technology topics, and recently published the book International Cybersecurity and Privacy Law in Practice (Wolters Kluwer, 2018).

Topics Covered

• We talk work/life balance; how we should treat and value both, how to identify burnout and how it hinders our work for our clients, and rediscovering joy in our hobbies.
• Productivity; understanding the ebb and flow of efficiency at work to best maximize work output while remaining mindful of what your motivation level is.
• Managing stress, in particular the concept of reframing actions for a less stressful response and looking for things to be grateful for, to get a new perspective on your situation.

For more information on Charlotte:

Twitter: @CybersimpleSec
www.cybersimplesecurity.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Demetria Johnson on to talk about diversity and evolving the talent pool.

Demetria Johnson is a diversity professional with expertise in global and U.S. diversity and inclusion initiatives, women's initiatives, and talent strategy. As a pioneer in the legal community, she has served in numerous leadership roles with notable legal organizations such as The Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals, NALP, Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, and Washington Area Legal Administrators Association. She is a frequent speaker at conferences focused on women's initiatives, mentoring, leadership, and professional development.

Topics Covered

• How she found herself in this line of work, and how she attributes her success to her natural people skills. She also talks on what lens she has to look through when it comes to diversity and inclusion with law firms.
• What is diversity tax/tokenism within law firms, and how this can be seen as covert racism or doing the bare minimum to seem inclusive is insensitive. She also offers strategies or tools that diverse attorneys can do to "find their sea legs."
• She touches on her perspective of the culture of diversity and inclusion, and how well-being and a sense of belonging stem from allowing others to speak without fear of shame or feeling like their voice matters less.
• What evolving the talent pool looks like, and how to start having that conversation in a larger scale to redefine one of the least racially diverse professions in the nation.

Find out more and connect with Demetria at:
Twitter
LinkedIn

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Demetria Johnson: [00:00:00] In an environment where you are again trying to find your fit for lawyers of color, it's much harder than it is for their non-diverse counterparts. Diversity is not only my vocation, it's my avocation.

Intro: [00:00:19] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Demetria Johnson. She is a diversity professional with expertise and global and U.S. diversity and inclusion initiatives, women's initiatives, and talent strategy. As a pioneer in the legal community, she has served in many leadership roles with notable legal organizations such as The Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals, NALP, Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, and Washington Area Legal Administrations Associations. She is a frequent speaker at conferences focused on women's initiatives, mentoring leaderships, and professional development. Demetria, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Demetria Johnson: [00:01:29] Jeena, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor and a privilege to be able to share this podcast and share this space with you and your audience from The Resilient Lawyer, so thank you.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:43] Thank you. So maybe we can start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Demetria Johnson: [00:01:51] Sure. So as you said so eloquently in my bio, I am a diversity and talent strategist who has had the good fortune to share that space with global and U.S. expertise for several different law firms. So I find myself as a change agent, a thought leader, and an advocate for the members of the diversity arena and under-represented groups here and abroad.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:32] How did you come to do this work? What's your background?

Demetria Johnson: [00:02:35] My background actually started in the customer service area many, many moons ago. And through that, people skills is something that I've always had such a knack for. From the early days of being a lifeguard to working in customer service for county government, and then going into the financial area. And while I was working for a bank, I had the opportunity to join a law firm. It's now one of the Top AmLaw 100 Law Firms. And that experience, I started at the ground up. So I left the financial market to try something different, and because of my experience it seemed to work well with my personality and my background in customer service, and I jumped right in and had a knack for it. And I think it's more of my personality as a type A person that I worked well with lawyers. So that's how it evolved organically, and then through that I got more and more experience. And working with the lawyers that I work with, I found myself being engaged with the diversity market. So that's how I became a diversity professional as well.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:13] Great. I always think it's such huge shoes to fill, whenever you are the director of diversity and inclusion for a firm with hundreds and hundreds of different people who are all going to come to the table with different perspectives, different life experiences. So when you think about diversity and inclusion in the context of law firms, what's the lens that you come to that role with?

Demetria Johnson: [00:04:47] As I said, I think most (well myself and my own opinion, for me and I would also say for a lot of my peers) come to it as a thought leader, an innovator, a change agent, and a champion; a champion in this mindset that champion that you're fighting for, those people of under-represented groups, people who don't have a voice. I say also, because at this time many of us are currently operating from a place of fear, and fear bringing our authentic self to work, in our personal life, fear seeking our full potential, and fear of the unknown. So I think that as we as diversity professionals are somewhat being known as again as those champions, or those who often at times are seen as the minority within the organizations that they're working.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:59] Can you tell us a little bit about a diversity tax or tokenisms within law firms. I guess to start, what do you mean by diversity tax or tokenism?

Demetria Johnson: [00:06:13] Sure. So recently, I presented with a couple of my colleagues, one who's in professional development and someone else who worked within law schools. And we did a presentation at the NALP Diversity Summit, and it was called "Don't Ask me to be Your Poster Child." And we came up with that because of the factor when you're looking at, we put it as sort of a true poster. When you have diverse associates who will let us use their photos over and over again on the website and brochures or will meet every diverse recruiting candidate. They'll also attend every diversity event, lead affinity groups, mentor other diverse lawyers, and be everything to everyone. So for example, the true definition as I say of tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to do a particular thing, especially by recruiting a small number of people from under-represented groups.

So it's otherwise known as covert racism, so it's defined as ambiguous because the perpetrator's actions are very indirect and often expressed through innuendos. And this was recently described by Haiku Hansen in a Huffington blog, and one of the other things that I've seen as it relates to what we see today (not only in law firms but also in the media) and Netflix I think does a good job of bringing to the forefront, biases in every day. Whether it's in your workplace, in your neighborhoods, in your communities or wherever. But Netflix released an original series "Dear White People." I don't know if you've seen that, where it's based on the acclaimed film of the same name. So this original series follows a group of students of color at Winchester University, and it's a predominantly white Ivy League college. And the students are faced with the landscape of cultural bias, social injustice, and misguided activism. And they take this through a slippery politics and sort of through an absurdist lens.

[00:08:32] And the series' irony and self-deprivation provide brutal honesty and humor to highlight these issues. So as I was watching the second season, and within the first episode of that second season they had a clip, it was in the first 45 seconds I think of the second season. In that first episode where they were gathering the new incoming class to take a photo, and as the photographer gathered everyone together he made sure that he put the minority students (which were one or two) and the one student who had a disability in the front, to showcase and make it seem as though this white Ivy League school was very inclusive of diversity and culturally sensitive to that.

However, as you went through that episode, later in the episode they showed where the white fraternity was hosting a blackface party. So it's sort of two-fold and how we look at today's post-racial society. Again, that's how I talk about the work that I do. You know, I reflect often on a workshop that was a huge "aha moment" for me, and it was conducted by Steven Young, who's a senior partner at InSight education systems and an author on micro-inequities and the power of small. And Steven provided the attendees at this workshop with the skills and techniques that could be used to improve the quality and productivity of daily interaction in the workplace and in law school environments. And in turn, it measurably raised diversity performance. So the workshop focused on the importance of analyzing the impact of underlying messages, which were showcased in this Netflix series, as well as through diversity tax at firms.

[00:10:42] So some of this is called micro-messaging, as a part of any diversity inclusion initiative. He stressed that professionals should never underestimate the power of small, and the significant impact the small has on the commitment of performance and success of those around us. So we look at micro-messaging are the key to unlocking or shutting down potential, micro-advantages are positive micro-messages that have the power to unlock potential, while micro-inequities are negative micro-messages that have the power to shut down potential. So when we look at how all of this is played out in law firms, these taxes that we put on our diverse, LGBTQ, as well as the lawyers who have disabilities.

We're doing this on a day-to-day basis; we're asking them to be our face and our brand ambassadors for activities. And you're especially seeing it more and more on new hires and new associates because they're the ones that are looking to get their "sea legs" more or less within the time they joined firms. So we presented this at this workshop, and we asked our peers to really think about how they, in turn, could turn this around within their organizations and look at ways to turn the tax into a reward. And think about how it can benefit the diverse lawyers, instead of creating problems for them down the road.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:30] Yeah, and it seems like this problem is so multi-faceted because they're offering the tools and support for the diverse lawyers within a law firm, but also helping people within the law firm see that this is something that is happening. And I think sometimes you're just resistant to even acknowledging that this is what's happening. So what were some of the strategies that you offered or what are some of the tools or things that diverse attorneys themselves can do, so that they can find their sea legs as you put it?

Demetria Johnson: [00:13:11] Sure. It's looking at giving credit hours and providing sponsorships, including opportunities and acknowledging and appreciating the work that they're doing. So for diverse attorneys, it's also seeking feedback from the individuals that they're working for. Everybody likes to be acknowledged for the work that they're doing, correct? So we want to make sure that they're out there seeking feedback that they need because, in an environment where you are again trying to find your fit in it (and especially in big law and for lawyers of color), it's much harder than it is for their non-diverse counterparts. So seeking sponsorships and we talked about seeking mentoring from the individuals within your practice groups, being inclusive; because diversity is not just counting, it's a culture. And finding a firm that matches the culture that you have, and being your own advocate as important as well. So if you're going to attend these events, make it to your benefit when you do it. So for instance, if the firm comes to you and wants you to participate in a recruiting event, ensure that it's your school that you're going to, to participate in. That way, you can help with the recruitment of individuals from your school or from your association, whether to be BALSA, APALSA, or OUTLAW. Find out what your affinity group is, and use it to your advantage in those ways.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:09] Yeah, I think that's such a great suggestion. How about for the firm in general? So for everybody else at the law firm, what can they do to make their law firm a more inclusive place? What can they do to be as you said "champions," which I really love. I tend to just call them allies, but for the lawyers within the firm that are kind of looking around saying, hey I think we have a diversity and inclusion problem here. What can we do to make this place more inclusive, where people can truly feel that they can be home and feel that they can be free to be their authentic selves?

Demetria Johnson: [00:15:50] Right, I think that's so true. It's important to have a culture where people can be their authentic self. And so I use that term before like you said, champion because you want to create that environment. So I feel where people can do that is to really sit back and listen. Because as Brene Myers said when I was working at a firm a few years ago, we were conducting an unconscious bias program and it was for all lawyers. And the first session of this training started with the leadership because it was important to start from the top down. And your champions, especially when you look at the leadership, leadership is going to be majority white in these major law firms.

[00:16:49] So the one message that she tried to hone in and resonate with them is no shame, blame, nor heart attack when you have these conversations. And if you can start and get people to understand that everybody has a say, everybody has an opinion, you can bring more people to the conversation. And I say that because I try to live that also, you know diversity is not only my vocation it's my avocation as well, being a woman of color. So I say that in my everyday life; when I conduct conversations with people in my community, with people in my family, and with my friends. For instance, if I have a different view or belief of someone else, and someone will say to me, well how can you be friends with this person and they have a totally different view of what you do for your vocation? And I say, but that's the reason why; because everybody has a right to their own opinion and a voice to say what they want to say. So how can I stifle that opinion or their voice? I have to be someone who is not judge and jury, but someone who can listen to them. And if we all would open up and just sit and listen and utilize our listening skills...

[00:18:33] As my good friend and colleague Kori Carew said on her podcast with you the other day, if we would invoke those listening skills and a sense of grace, we would be in a much better place. Even within our own communities, but also within law firms. Because oftentimes we're not listening to what people are saying and having open and meaningful conversations and communications. And I think that's where you bring champions in. Because after we had our unconscious bias training program, people were having more difficult conversations amongst themselves and in the room, because they felt that there was no shame, blame, or attack being held during that time.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:31] Yeah, I really love that; No shame, blame, or attack. You know I find that it's one thing to say I'm going to show up to this conversation, and I'm going to show up with no shame, blame, or attack, and then the person just said something, right? I had this happen recently where I was interviewing someone, and I said, "I'm noticing that your entire team is white, male, and I want to know what your company policy is on diversity and inclusion." And he said, well diversity and inclusion are certainly important to us, but we're not going to lower our standards in hiring. And I felt so... I'm telling you this story now and I'm just feeling so angry. It makes my stomach turn and I just feel so angry, and I wanted to be like, "How dare you, how dare you say that!" But of course I have to keep my calm, and I just get so tired. And I'm sure you must have that sensation too, so thoughts on showing up and having that be your practice or your prayer; like please allow me to show up without shame, without blame and attack, but sometimes you feel attacked, you feel so unheard and unseen. So thoughts on that?

Demetria Johnson: [00:20:58] Right, right, right. That's true, that's true. Because people also, I think you're right Jeena, people have to also see you. So if you don't see me, you can't hear me, and you're not going to listen to me. So how are you going to make them see you, without being as they say (and I'll use this because I am a black woman) the angry black woman. And be seen as the angry black woman, stomping my feet and raising my voice. And there are ways in which you can do that, for example, I had the opportunity to present diversity strategy and business plans to the executive board of one of the firms that I work with. Every six months, we would have the opportunity to present our diversity strategy. And I was glad that I had a voice or a seat at the table to be able to do that. I was attending one board meeting, and right before I went to the board meeting I received notice that an African-American, a black lawyer was leaving the firm. A young black lawyer, and also an LGBT lawyer was leaving the firm.

[00:22:30] Now at this time in my role I was the Director of Diversity, but I had recruited these individuals from law school. And I remember thinking, sitting at my desk like five minutes before I was supposed to go up to this board meeting. And I felt such rage and such anger that they were leaving the firm. The same day, on the same day that morning I get the same notification. And I thought to myself, what are we doing wrong? What are we doing wrong? Now we applaud ourself when we're doing so many things right, but on the same day, I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I couldn't think beyond that e-mail that was in front of me. And I went up to the meeting and I had my notes and was ready to do my presentation. And as I presented to the board, I sat there. Now these are all the top stakeholders in the firm are in this room, and there is a room full of 20 people. And I'm sitting there and a conversation started, and one of the stakeholders brought up that this person was leaving. And at that time I guess I didn't have my poker face on.

And one of them asked me what were my thoughts on this, and I took a little pause and I leaned forward and I said, "We're sitting here and we keep having this conversation over and over and over and over again. It's like the act of insanity, we keep doing the same thing over and over again, looking for something different." And I said I'm just frustrated. We talk about the numbers, we talk about what we're doing, how we're going to achieve a certain target for women and diverse lawyers, how to put them through a sponsorship program, how we're going to work on audits within our practice groups. But we're sitting here and we're talking about the same thing every time we have this discussion, the same thing. And they said, what do you propose? And I said, we need to have a conversation with those individuals and find out why they're leaving.

And it may not have anything to do with the work that we're doing here, the work that they did here, the initiatives and the programs that we have going on. Because sometimes it's not necessarily saying that they (use that term, people) are dying on the vine, but it could be that sometimes people just don't want to stay in a law firm. And I said it could be non-diverse and diverse lawyers; sometimes we have to realize that people just don't want to stay, that's not their path to be partners. But if we're not having a conversation then we don't know, right? So going back to your original question, that was me having my, one of my colleagues in the international office called me up and I raced out of there and she said, "You had that Sheryl Sandberg moment - you leaned in." And I said I guess I did.

[00:26:16] I didn't realize at that time, at that moment that that's what I was doing. But I think it was, as you were talking with your own experience, it was a moment of frustration that led me to that point. And after that, I was able to get people to see me and to hear me and to take into account thoughts on how we need to move the needle forward and think about what we were going to do. And it was the right room to have the conversation at that time because you had the right stakeholders there. And so things started to change at that moment, more people listened at that time. So I think that's the important factor, is having the people in the room; and that's how you create champions. And those naysayers and the non-choir members, that's how you bring them in. Once you can bring one, you know reach one teach one, once you bring one on and you teach them, you start to create a ripple effect.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:25] Yeah, yeah I think that's such a great message. And I've been on various planning committees and things like that, and being a woman of color (and I'm sure you get this too) where they invite you because you're supposed to fix a diversity and inclusion issue for that conference, or whatever that group may be. And I've had those moments where I keep having these gentle conversations with people, and I always think it's such a win when on their own, without me prompting they'll look and say, this panel is lacking diversity. Maybe we should go out and reach out to some other folks, and I go YES! It's such a winning moment when it enters into people's ethos. Because I think if you're always in the majority it's a space in which you feel comfortable obviously, so you may not necessarily have that awareness or that mindful practice to be able to pause and say, who's NOT at this table? Who are the key stakeholders that should be here, and where are the voices that are missing? And I think that's such a wonderful practice to have as humans, you know? Like how do I create a space where I can be more inclusive and more welcoming of other people, and what does that practice look like on a day-to-day basis?

Demetria Johnson: [00:28:56] I agree, I agree. And I think that especially given that law is one of the least racially diverse professions in the nation. I was doing some fact checking, you know the Bureau of Labor & Statistics for 2017 says that 89% of lawyers are white. So when you look at that statistic and look at the statistics of VAULT, which says out of that 90% of equity partners are white, even though one in four law firm associates is a person of color. Where is that experience for minority attorneys? It's based on their demographic group. So we have to, as a profession of diversity professionals, as a profession of lawyers, you are looking in lawyers of color. You are looking that you need champions who are of the majority.

And I think Timothy Ryan has done a great job of putting together the coalition of CEO Action, which is forming CEO's of top corporations and a few law firms as well to come together and say what can we do to enhance diversity within our corporations, and enhance the pipeline of diversity? And by bringing together the CEO's and bringing together the diversity professionals, and that's one thing that I think is very important because you're looking at not just CEO's of law firms as I mentioned, but as corporations. And LCLD does a great job doing that as well, but this is starting much further down the pipeline. Like CEO Action is starting with the pipeline and bringing this bus, they call is The Blind Bus, to HBCU's. So they're working with presidents of HBCU's to start the conversation early, and it's about having that conversation. And when you look at the makeup of these CEO's, the majority of the CEO's again are white. So we've got to be able to come together and as I said in the beginning, many of us are operating in a place of fear. But we have to bring our authentic self to the conversation and have a conversation with the individuals who don't look like us. Because we'll die on the vine if we don't.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:07] I totally agree with you. Maybe we can shift gears a little bit because as I'm talking to you it occurred to me that the work that you do is taxing for so many reasons. And I'm curious what you do to nourish yourself and to practice self-care. How do you get up every day and show up with that open mindset? Because I think it takes a lot of energy to show up to spaces and say, I'm going to show up and let go of shame, blame, and attack. And also tips that you might have for the listeners out there, just in terms of I feel like we're all constantly drinking from the firehose now, and I struggle with trying to find my sea legs or that sense of groundedness.

Demetria Johnson: [00:33:07] Sure. So I would say that my peace comes from my relationship with my religion, so with God. That is the one thing that keeps me going, keeps me motivated, keeps me centered, keeps me focused. If I didn't have that relationship I think that I probably would be in a mental institution at some point, you'd find me wrapped up in a crazier place than I am some days, without that being my guide. And I think family helps me, and my friends help me stay centered. And I think wherever I find it, whether it's spiritual, whether it be working out, exercise, yoga; I wish I had more time to spend exercising. Also I'm a voracious reader, I like to read. And I like to travel whenever I can get a break, so anytime I can sort of release.

[00:34:23] I have a friend who is the CEO and founder of Diversity, Flexibility & Alliance Group, which is an organization that is focused on flexibility and agile work and diversity. She does this great program on mindset and grit. One of the things is to just let your mind find a place where you can relax, and I think that's so important for lawyers and for the professionals. If we don't take time to provide self-care for ourselves, then we're no good for those that we're trying to help. And also my personal board is another; they sort of center me and focus me.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:14] I love that, I love all these tools that you have in your toolbox for practicing self-care. Demetria, for the listeners that are out there that want to learn more about your work, where is the best place for them to do that?

Demetria Johnson: [00:35:28] Sure, so I'm on Linked In and I'm also on Twitter @DemetriaRene.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:38] Wonderful. And Demetria, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Demetria Johnson: [00:35:48] Being a resilient lawyer to me means putting on your body of armor each day as you approach the work that you do, for both your internal and external stakeholders and to focus on being your authentic self.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:03] Demetria, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Demetria Johnson: [00:36:09] Jeena again, thank you for having me. And I appreciate you again and the work that we are doing, and I am thankful that we have this space where we can share this type of information. So thank you.

Closing: [00:36:28] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Jennifer Day on to talk about breaking down the stigma that comes with depression and how lawyers are susceptible.

Jennifer graduated from law school in 2004. She served as a judicial law clerk in Anchorage, Alaska, then became a prosecutor in 2005 and has never looked back. She has prosecuted a variety of cases, and has also presented on the topic of depression amongst prosecutors across the state of California for the past few years. Her spare time is spent with her family, or you can find her out on a photography adventure.

Topics Covered

• Managing clinical depression with work life, and how much to share at work about being clinically depressed.
• How depression manifests itself to her, and how she recognizes it.
• The stigma of discussing depression amongst prosecutors.
• The difference between compassion fatigue and clinical depression.
• How it was harder to come out as depressed than it was to come out as gay.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Samara Anderson on to talk about the effects of stress in the practice of law and the difference proper mitigation of stress can have for the mindful lawyer.

Samara is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy advisor, and an entrepreneur creating a non-profit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals, nature, and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has evolved from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy advisor with the State of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practices with the practice of law in her Mindful Practices workshops to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness.

Topics Covered

• What brought her to incorporate mindfulness into her law practice, and how to use a mindfulness practice to recognize when you are being reactive and triggered.
• The effects of stress on the practice of law (the power of the mind to hurt and heal).
• The power of mindfulness in improving your role as an attorney, and using stress and adrenaline to your advantage.
• How to be more efficient, productive, happier, and have more integrity as an attorney.

Learn more about Samara at:
The Happy Human Projects

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:23] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am really happy to have Samara Anderson. She is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy adviser, and an entrepreneur at creating a nonprofit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals nature and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has a ball from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy adviser with the state of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practice with the practice of law and her mindfulness practices workshop to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness and who doesn't want that.

Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new cars mindful pause so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness but they don't have the time and I was hell lawyer start with just six minutes or point one hour of all the hours you dedicate your client's work and others don't deserve to have at least point one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for lawyers like it to fit into your schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to booze show while being head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. Or check it out in the shownotes. And with that, here’s Samara. Samara, welcome to the show.

Samara Anderson: [00:01:48] Awesome thank you. I'm really excited to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:51] So let's just start by having you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you know.

Samara Anderson: [00:01:57] Well I like to refer to myself as a Yagur so I combining Beany yoga teacher with being a lawyer and that started about five years ago. I started my professional legal career as a complex commercial litigator in Manhattan working on securities fraud antitrust violations products liability. Very very stressful work high stakes very wealthy clients and it was very hostile and you know I kind of transitioned out of that environment into being a yoga teacher thinking I would never practice law again. And then I realized I could actually combine the two. I could bring the mindfulness and the healing that I was feeling both physically and mentally from from yoga and meditation into the practice of law.

And so I returned to the practice of law as an assistant attorney general here in Vermont which is where I live now doing some really complex challenging family law cases representing people that were being abused neglected or violated as either adults or children with developmental disabilities. So it was a very stressful kind of situation. But I was able to bring the mindfulness into it and that's made all the difference and now I've kind of transitioned into managing some of their complex projects and representing the agency of Human Services. I'm still you know integrating the two. I teach a lot of mindful practices courses to all types of lawyers Vermont Legal Aid. I teach to other government attorneys law firms. And I'm really passionate about combining these two things and helping other lawyers the less stressed and happier.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:51] Well it is combining the two books like they did day basis. Know client by client basis how does that look different than what you were doing previously.

Samara Anderson: [00:04:04] I think previously I was just I felt like I was in a rat race. I was just I felt like I was just rushing from one thing to the next. Never really even enjoying whatever it was I was doing even if it was something that could be enjoyable I was just in in those moments. I was thinking of other things are planning the next thing or thinking about something that happened before. And so when I look back at my first seven eight years as a lawyer I was essentially not present at all. I think I was physically present. And my mind was engaged but I wasn't actually there.

I think I was always somewhere else. And I think you looking back at you know it just didn't allow me to maximize everything I was doing. But now after you know I have a very solid practice. I incorporate our Iveta into my day as well. So I have in our Ubaid it's called a Jeena Cho area it's a routine that's kind of there to support your body to maximize what you eat when you sleep when you exercise. It's kind of this holistic way of approaching you know your health and that. So those things yoga meditation are kind of all combined to now allow me to be present in all of the moments so I'm really there as much as I can be of course I'm human I'm not. You know I'm not completely enlightened yet but I think the moments of mindfulness and being present are much more powerful and I'm getting a lot more of it out of everything I do. So yeah I think that's the biggest difference just in a kind of a general context.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:53] Yeah. And can you talk more specifically about you know when you talk about the power of mindfulness and harnessing it to improve your role as an attorney what that looks like. Can you give a specific example of how you may have handled this situation differently before than you do now.

Samara Anderson: [00:06:10] I think that the biggest thing is efficiency and that's really coming from self awareness so you know when you become mindful you become a little bit more self aware. You know you start to realize when you're being triggered you start you starting to realize when you're being reactive. And I think you know the biggest thing is starting to look at both efficiency and sustainability so you know let's say looking at my daily tasks. So before I would be sitting at my desk and e-mails would come in and phone calls would come in and I was just a victim to everyone else contacting me. So if I get a phone call I would answer it if I got an e-mail I would read it if I got to it. This is before the time of cell phones they were just starting to pick up and then now that you know when those cell phones came in I had a BlackBerry and so it was you know e-mail notifications and all these notifications and I was just you know kind of rushing from one thing to the next and getting distracted and not being able to focus on anything that was just you know kind of my mind was jumping from one thing to the next.

And now I do what's called batching. So I'll bad I'll let all the e-mails you know just accumulate and I'll have a notification that says I check my e-mails three times a day. So I check them one hour in the morning one hour in the afternoon one hour in the evening. And then you know I take that one hour and it's you know I complete the analysis of all the e-mails looking at the e-mails responding to the e-mails and giving them my full attention. It's the same with phone calls so that the phone calls go to voicemail and then you know Habba time that I've said that I've determined I'm going to you know listen to those phone messages and then I'll listen to them and prioritize the responses and let people know I'll get back to them. So I think it's it's just a different way of of actually practicing. And I think that plays out not just being a lawyer but I think you know anyone in the professional context that that kind of distracted practice is not very efficient or sustainable.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:19] So it is one of the things that I often will talk to lawyers about is time management and how to structure their time more efficiently and often I'll get something like well but my clients expected to be available 24/7 and if I don't respond right away they get upset. I'm curious when you started to make these changes. Did you get any pushback. And if so how did you deal with that.

Samara Anderson: [00:08:40] Yeah I get that a lot from lawyers especially those that are in the criminal context of the civil litigation context where you've got judges you've got cook you know opposing counsel you've got clients and in one of the things I started to kind of look at I have a government client and I think the key is to set their expectation with the client or the expectation with opposing counsel to state that you know I want to give you all of my attention. And if I respond to your e-mails right away it means I'm not giving you all your all the tension that you know you really deserve. And so I'd rather wait give myself space to like schedule the time to do it. I know there is an emergency.

You know I will be available. But typically clients are fine with that. I mean once you set the expectation I mean if the expectation is you're always available then you're you know if that's what they expect then that's what you have to provide. And I've had many lawyers even in the Ledet litigation context as I don't actively practice litigation anymore that are able to actually set those expectations with their clients. So I think that's the key. You know just communicating that upfront. And and you know and then allowing the media negotiation to occur with a client to say well you know if they do have something that's urgent then I'll let that come through. You can set up all these different you know an outlook and different e-mails you can set up certain e-mails can come through with the notification that they're important. So you can actually prioritize things that way.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:07] So just not have outlook open during the day when you're not supposed to be checking your e-mail or you sort of internally manage that.

Samara Anderson: [00:10:17] I just turn the notifications off. So I mean it's there but I'm not actively looking at it. And I think you know the key is to kind of you know take all your time so if you're you know in the office for eight hours to you know kind of schedule everything. So look down at your calendar and schedule that schedule. You know the break that you're going to take I have a little notification that pops up. Be mindful and it pops up at 1:00 and so it's always like I'm always rushing. That is like. Be mindful. And it's just I can just be mindful for one breath if I don't have the time to take the full five minutes. But usually I can take five minutes and then sometimes it's ten. But you know to really maximize it so if you give if you batched everything you've put everything you know in your calendar then you're just then there's less stress too because you know I'm going to get to this. There's my mind isn't racing to be like how did I do this. Did I do that you've already prioritized everything you already know what you have to do and then you just do it when you schedule it.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:13] Yeah. And I think also scheduling things kind of you know it's respecting your own energy right because we don't think you know it's lawyers. We like to think that where we can just work and work and work and work but it's not true. So recognizing that there are only so many hours in the day and you know you're going to prioritize those things that are important and make sure that you are able to do those things when you're sort of at your know optimal energy level and that kind of trying and doing you know for me as you say earlier in the morning tends to be sort of my better hours in terms of getting work done and not putting the most important things to be done at 4:00 o'clock. Oh my energy levels is not going to be as high.

Samara Anderson: [00:11:58] Exactly. Or 3 o'clock when all over serotonin and dopamine levels drop later.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:06] And you know I think that very nicely kind of leads us into the next topic which has the effect of stress on the practice. Applying this ability of the mind to both hurt and heal so say more about that.

Samara Anderson: [00:12:23] I think this is this is something that it kind of developed as I started to teach mindfulness because as a lawyer you know we always kind of want to look at it what's the problem like what is the problem what are we what are we dealing with. And then what is a solution. So as always you know I always start with that kind of a two step analysis. What's the problem. What are my you know possible solutions. And so as I started to break down what had really started to fall apart for me both physically and emotionally it was the effects of stress. And it was the you know the physical and the mental effects of stress. So the example I always use when I write teach my mind for practice practices workshops is I ask all the participants you know what causes stress in your life.

And they all you know they have different things and they go around the room and then I say Alright imagine that all the things that you just identified as causing stress your so you're mentally saying these things are causing me stress. Physically your body is reacting as though a supportive tigers chasing you because your mind is telling your body. I'm under stress. There is something that is you know coming after me and it could just be a deadline. It could just be you know a phone call an awkward conversation an argument. And so you know I say well if a saber toothed tigers chasing you what are your options like. What do you need to do. And you know everyone's like run. And I said while you could run or you could you know you could you could fight. You know it may not be the best option but maybe you could. Or you could freeze. And all three of those states cause the same exact amount of hormones in the body. So you've got first nor epinephrine an adrenalin are created. Those are the like. I've got to get out of here.

I've got I got get moving. And then and then after that cortisol starts to come online and that stays in the body much longer. But they all are meant to get you to run. You're supposed to be running. So all the blood flow is now going out into your extremities. You know your heart rate increases your respiration it increases your hands could get sweaty. You know and so you're having a stress response. And you know when I tell people that I have them in vision that they're getting chased by sabertooth tiger they start to think wow I actually do kind of feel that way. Like when you and I have a deadline or when I'm under stress it's like my body is reacting that way I could just be sitting in a room thinking about something and my body is going to have that response. And so you know I really talk about how powerful the mind body connection is and it really hits home like you know I'll even do the example of just everyone close their eyes and take your awareness to your left index finger and then I'll have them you know just take their awareness their take their energy there and then open their eyes and say well what did it feel like.

Did you feel. What did you feel in your left index finger in there like tingly and it felt like buzzing it felt warm. That is your mind. You're just taking your mind and you're putting it on something. And you know that mind body connection is so powerful and so I say well you know if you've got these stress hormones how how do you decrease them you know how do you kind of get out of the sympathetic nervous system and get into what's called the parasympathetic nervous system and then in that system you've got the other three opposing hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin and those actually decrease those stress hormones. So you know mindful practices and there's a lot of documented evidence. Lawyers always want to see the evidence so I always have my studies about you know how deep breathing and mindful movement whatever kind of movement it is.

Even if you're running if you're doing it mindfully you'll still have the same facts yoga a tight tchi all of these different motions activate the parasympathetic system and they activate those hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin so you actually you've got these I almost kind of see it as like stress hormones versus relaxation hormones and like you know which can you start to increase the relaxation and decrease the stress. And what can you do during the day what can you do in the moment. What can you do to to start to to alter that balance so that you know when someone cut you off in traffic you're not reacting you're just thinking what a person must be having a bad day you know you're your reactive state is much different because you're in he start to cultivate this place of of of more relaxation. So that's kind of how I Jeena I generalize that I have a lot of lawyers say we can handle the talking about the prefrontal cortex I'm like well you know that's probably more advanced mindfulness. Let's just stick with the basics right. And a lot of people are blown away just by the basics right. Because it does have a complex.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:17] you explain the actual practice. Can you give one example of a practice of filibusterers and that I like I yeah reading she says is totally making sense. But what do I do in that moment. So you're sitting in the office. The phone rings and says to someone that you like low then you know your heart's racing our stomachs tightening up and you just yell like you can sort of feel that adrenaline kicking in. So what's a practice that you can recommend a lawyer try to do in that moment.

Samara Anderson: [00:17:49] Well I think the most critical pieces that you actually are aware that you're having a stress response you know and that in itself is extremely powerful. The second you are realizing wow I am I am I'm I'm really upset right now. I can feel my heart beating faster I can feel my breath rate increasing like you don't want to even talk about stress. I have a lot of lawyers say how many people feel stressed just talking about stress syndrome it raised their hands because even like as you describe that I started feeling it. So you know you know and so the awareness number one that you're having a stress response is extremely powerful. Like that is I think that is probably the key to decreasing your stress is knowing that you're having stress right. You have to know you have to become aware that you have a problem before you can solve it. And then so you realize I'm having a stress response. I'm having a reaction. I think that second piece is is can be very simple and very profound and it's completely free and it's available all the time. It doesn't require any advanced training or any kind of special clothing.

It's just your breath. So the second you realize I'm having a stress response. So stress that kind of sympathetic nervous system when it activates that's the inhale. So when I teach yoga when you end it so if you're going to get hit by a car you know you almost get hit and go you know you breathe them. So that's sympathetic system that activates the sympathetic system and usually that happens you look at this phone call or email or you know my mother's calling or whatever could be stressing you out. And and then. So the parasympathetic response is the exhale. So it's. It's letting the breath out. And I think even if you just took one mindful breath like one deep breath in with your eyes closed softening the jaw relaxing the teeth and then one deep exhale out and try linger a little bit in that exhale just that one breath could be enough to have you shift just slightly. It's not going to decrease all the stress hormones. It really depends on how big of a trigger that was. You know how intense the emotion was. But that one breath that could be enough.

You know if you still have to take the call you might be a little bit more present because you've just taken two huge steps in mindfulness. Number one you're aware of a stress response. Number two you're trying to become present bring yourself into the moment out of the reactive state. So you know mindfulness is not I'm judgmental it's subjective. You know you're cultivating it which is extremely difficult. You're like sane. I know I have this whole past and I have this you know all these environmental issues and where I was raised and how I was raised and all these things are in me and they alter my perception of reality. But I'm going to try and look at this objectively and try and breathe through the reaction that I'm having so that I can actually be present and non-judgemental. And I think that's I think that's the practice. I mean I guide I guide my students into awareness of their bodies. I mean like really feeling the body. And I think for some people that can be traumatic especially if you've had any kind of abuse in the past. So sometimes coming into the body can be very stressful sometimes you can get the eyes open and just a where the body and then become aware of the breath. So those two things that's mindfulness and it and it's available all the time completely free.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:30] You know often when I suggest paying attention to the breath just what you suggested a lot of a lot more so at lawyers and non lawyers they find that that just paying attention to the brand to be very distressing. And you know I think a lot of it just has to do with Ed because we're such control freaks and all of a sudden they are paying attention to this thing that you and doing all of your life. And now that all of these dots are going through it's like am I breathing right. Am I not breathing. And then they start to change your breathing pattern and then they start speed up their breath and all this and act like they can't prevent it. It's just very very distressing so for the listeners out there like you know like pay attention to the press just doesn't work for me. Are there other practices that you can suggest.

Samara Anderson: [00:22:16] Well I mean if paying attention to the breath is going to be challenging how is the one thing that I've realized about practices that are challenging it. They're usually there to kind of be our best teacher you know like people that are the most challenging. They're our best teachers you know. You know any kind of practice that I find challenging is my best teacher to say well maybe this is something I really need to look at. But if it's if it's something you absolutely can't do so you're having a really hard time you know doing it alone. Sometimes it works better in a group maybe a guided situation or just use other tools. So instead of focusing on the breath you can focus on the body or you can you know become aware of your surroundings and really start to look around June. What do you see. You could also pay attention to sounds you know eyes are open or closed. I find it easier to pay attention to sound with the eyes closed. I also find it easier to pay attention to sensations in the body with the eyes close.

So you know if the brass if trying to and I guess you know what you're talking about is more like a pranayama. So prandial would be breath control you're trying to alter the breath maybe do counties and I've noticed a lot of lawyers when I do accounting so I have them I'll have them count to four on the inhale and I'll have them count to six on the exhale because what I'm trying to do is lengthen the exhale right. So I want to get the parasympathetic system online and I'll have lawyers after it say that was really hard. I start to compete with myself because I'll say well you could do five count inhale and seven count exhale. Or you could do a 6 hour inhale and an eight count accelerate like I was trying to get to succinate and it was so hard and I was really forcing it. And so I think we know because we're so competitive you know we will compete.

So if given the opportunity we will start to ratchet it up like five and five and seven is really comfortable for me but succinate is a challenge. I won't push myself and all of a sudden your jaws. You know you're stressing yourself out doing it. And so I say well if that if that practice is stressing you out. And let's try something else let's just try another sense right because what you're trying to do is just bring yourself into the moment. So right. You know take our hands as the breath is the vehicle into the body. So what it does is it brings you if you're in the body you're present like you're here. And so you know if the if there's other ways to get you to into the body that you're out using the breath then you can use those and I find feeling sensations. What does the body feel like. And it's more actually I don't like that word feeling either when you get into some of the verbiage it's better to think about like what is this sensation. What is a sensation in the body because feelings are different. You know there's thoughts and then there's feelings that could be associated with those.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:02] Right. Yeah you know words can be tricky. What you may mean by feel or notice or I think maybe didn't know how somebody else explained for that.

Samara Anderson: [00:25:12] Yeah. Yeah. Woman is very. Because we're working with lawyers right. And words are our life. So when you start to use a certain word and certain words can be triggering. I find yoga to be triggering. I find meditation to be triggering people like you know what is a some kind of spiritual thing like it and I'm like now you're just focusing on your breath. So it's like I always had to scrub things out so that it's just it's mindfulness you're just mindfully practicing your mindfully moving your mindfully breathing. You know sometimes I do some manual work and so I was like oh what are in it is some kind of seance. It's like no all you're going to do is inhale and think the words Let's exhale go let go. And so I always say the the mind and the body there's no separation of the mind is thinking let go the body will start to let go and then the mind can start to let go of whatever it's holding onto. So you know there's there's lots of little tools and I think you know as I say with yoga it's like and it's the same with the practice of law you take the practice of law.

You take the practice of yoga and you add you know add whoever that lawyer is and you get a certain experience and not everyone is going to like every lawyer and not everyone's going to like every yoga teacher and not everyone's going to like every practice. And so I always say if something doesn't work then keep working night. Don't give up on mindfulness just because something didn't resonate for you. Find something that does. You know and maybe it's visualization maybe it's another sense but keep looking because there's something out there that will resonate for you. And then that will be your gateway that will be your path forward into less stress and more happiness. So that's where it's worth looking for. If she can't find it.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:06] Yeah that feels like the perfect place to wrap things up. Isomer for. The lesson is out there that want to learn more about you or your work it was the best placement Jeena.

Samara Anderson: [00:27:18] The best place is I have a website. It's called The Happy Human projects plural because I didn't really think one would be enough. And it's really a place where you know I teach therapeutic yoga. I teach mindful practice workshops but I also what my biggest passion is is really one on one and group work around mindfulness. And I just I just love working with people and helping them. I feel like I am becoming more mindful. You know as I work with other people you know I learn more as a teacher than I sometimes think my students do so extremely you know passionate about that I travel all over the country teaching. So I would love to have people connect with me.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:59] Wonderful. One final question before I let you go. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer.

Samara Anderson: [00:28:07] I think they are resilient lawyers really honoring everything that that has taken you to where you're at. You know it's honoring all of the all the horrible things that might have happened to you as in your legal practice. All the wonderful wins that you had and kind of looking at all of that as you know your teacher. You know I'm so glad that I worked in a very challenging stressful legal practice where I was building you know 3000 hours a year because if I hadn't done that I would not have come to a place of of mindfulness. And so I think being resilient is honoring everything that that that has happened to you that has gotten to you to where you're at. And then you're using it and you're maximizing it to maximize your life. So I think that's for me that's what resilient lawyer and resiliency in general mean wander smile.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:58] Thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate it.

Samara Anderson: [00:29:02] Thank you I really enjoyed it.

Closing: [00:29:10] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show to leave us a review on iTunes search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that. So we really appreciate it. As always we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile at the anxious lawyer dot com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Gina Biegel on to talk about redefining mindfulness in the 21st century and the idea of positive neuroplasticity.

Gina Biegel is a psychotherapist, researcher, speaker, and author in the San Francisco Bay Area who specializes in mindfulness-based work with adolescents. She is the founder of Stressed Teens, which has been offering mindfulness-based stress reduction for teens to adolescents, families, schools, professionals, and the community for over a decade. She created MBSR-T to help teens in a large HMO's outpatient department of child and adolescent psychiatry whose physical and psychological symptoms were not responding satisfactorily to a multitude of other evidence-based practices. An expert and pioneer in bringing mindfulness-based approaches to youth, she is the author of multiple works on the subject, she provides worldwide multi-day training and intensive ten-week online training, and she works with teens and families individually and in groups. Her work has been featured on CNN and Reuters, and in the New York Times.

Topics Covered

• Gina kicks the episode off by talking about how she got interested in mindfulness and easy ways of making mindfulness accessible to all people, especially for those with time constraints, and how that ties into her work. She also dives into the "Body Scan" practice and the two types of mindfulness practice: formal and informal.
• Defining mindfulness for those in the 21st century and positive neuroplasticity, the benefits and pitfalls of introducing yoga and mindful practices to children/teenagers, and why the need for mindfulness for young people today is more relevant now than ever before, given the political and social climate.
• She wraps the show up talking about her new book Be Mindful and Stress Less: 50 Ways to Deal with Your Crazy Life.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Gina Biegel: [00:00:06] I think we tend to put ourselves down that totem pole and put everybody else first and doing things for other people. And we all know that you can't take care of others until you take care of yourself.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I have Gina Biegel, who is a psychotherapist. She's a researcher, speaker, and author in the San Francisco Bay area. She specializes in mindfulness-based work with adolescents. Her work has been featured in CNN, Reuters, and in The New York Times. Today we're going to do something slightly different. Gina has written a new book, "Be mindful and Stress Less: 50 Ways to Deal with Your Crazy Life," and she has very generously offered to give away five copies of the book. You can get a free copy of the book shipped directly to you by retweeting this episode and tagging me, so head on over to Twitter and share this post and tag me. It's @Jeena_Cho. So if you would like a free copy of "Be mindful and Stress Less," and who doesn't want to be more mindful and stress less, go ahead and share the episode and tag me on the tweet.

[00:01:49] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't heard the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, and perhaps Jeena will offer some advice on how to make mindfulness a daily habit. So I wanted to create a course that would make it easy for lawyers to fit in a daily mindfulness and meditation practice. So it's just six minutes a day for 31 days. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Gina. Gina, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Gina Biegel: [00:02:30] Hi Jeena, thanks for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:31] You know I don't think I've ever had another Jeena on the podcast, so this is great.

Gina Biegel: [00:02:35] Yeah, when you just mentioned your name I was confused for a minute. I was like, wait a minute I know your name is Jeena, but hearing it was kind of funny. So we can savor that moment and take it in, Gina power.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:50] So let's get started by having you tell the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Gina Biegel: [00:02:57] Sure. So I'm a psychotherapist, as you know, a marriage family therapist. I've had about 15 years experience as a psychotherapist with doing a lot of family therapy, and a particular focus with working with teens, teens of all types. So those that "normal" or those that don't actually have a mental health disease or disorder, and then those who are really experiencing a lot of distress and have a lot of mental health difficulties. I've also worked in the inner city, I've worked with young people of privilege, and in both clinical and educational settings. And mostly in the United States, but North America and also elsewhere outside of the country.

[00:03:40] Something that struck me was that you were just saying, you know that lawyers feel the need like they should practice. And I too, you know just because I am a practitioner of mindfulness I am by no means perfect, and I think it's really important to share that. A lot of us have our ebbs and flows and our waxes and wanes with how much we practice, and the thing is noticing when we don't and trying not to judge our judge. Because then we could start judging the fact that we're judging ourselves for not practicing. And although my book is technically for teens and young adults, I think it's completely appropriate for all people; for people who are on the go, people who don't have a lot of time, who want to bring mindfulness into their life and get benefit from it but not spending 45 to 60 minutes a day sitting on a cushion.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:30] Yeah, yeah. How did you become interested in this topic of mindfulness?

Gina Biegel: [00:04:35] Yeah. You know it was not something I was planning on really. I was in grad school at Santa Clara University, and one of my professors Shawna Shapiro is a prolific researcher in the MBSR, mindfulness-based stress reduction for adults. And I started learning about it through her, and then through that was trained by Jon Kabat-Zinn and Saki Santorelli, and then I started getting really immersed in it. And seeing how it was benefiting me personally and really changing my life, and helping me with my own type-A personality really. I always, when I think of what I do now I always think of this old commercial, the Hair Club for Men commercial. And if you don't know this commercial, it's this guy who has this Hair Club for Men business and he says, "I'm not only a member, I'm also the founder," meaning he uses his own products and it's his business. So when I created the mindfulness-based stress reduction for teens program, it's like not only am I the creator of this program but I'm also a member. Meaning I need to practice mindfulness myself, it's helped me and it helps me in my life all the time.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:49] What were some of the personal benefits that you've gained from practicing mindfulness on a regular basis?

Gina Biegel: [00:05:56] Yeah, I think the thing that's helped me the most is quieting the to-do list. I was one of those people that would lay down at night and just kind of go over all the things I had to do, because when you're a professional and you're busy it's hard to turn that off. And so when I brought mindfulness practices into my life, particularly the body scan practice, it really got me out of that to-do list. And then the other practice with that that helped me was just, sometimes a pain just wants to be heard; sometimes your to-do list just wants to be acknowledged. It's like, okay I'm thinking of my to-do list right now. Okay, thank you for sharing, and its here right now. Instead of this aversion to it, or this clinging to it, it's more of this witnessing it; it's here, okay. And by witnessing it kind of takes that power out of it, to make it that attachment to continue thinking about it. So that has helped me a lot. Also, just how do you bring mindfulness into everything you're doing?

[00:07:01] You know, you're awake for let's say 16 hours a day. There are two types of mindfulness practice: formal and informal. Let's say formal practice is setting a specific amount of time aside to practice mindfulness. Well, let's say in 16 hour waking day I spent a half hour on formal practice; there are still 15 and a half hours left in the day for me to be bringing mindfulness to everything I'm doing, which is informal practice. And so for me, its how do I make it accessible and tangible and understandable, so that I can be applying it to everything I'm doing throughout my day?

Jeena Cho: [00:07:39] And how do you remind yourself to bring yourself back into the present moment throughout the day?

Gina Biegel: [00:07:46] Because I've been practicing a long time now, I almost envision this kind of anchor in my body, this anchor in my chest. Or I think of the things that are always constants with us; the grounding focal points, our breath, our heart rate, our heart rate variability. But also things like our fingers have a lot of sensations in them and a lot of nerves in them, so if you just put your hands in the air you can feel something. So it's like, how do you constantly shift out of the thinking and the doing, and then it's the shift back to my body. The shift back to my feet and walking on the ground, or feeling the air around my fingers. And then as my thoughts wander, it's this kind of witnessing, this invitation to return back to this moment. It's like you're in a rowboat and you're kind of going about in the ocean, and you drop your anchor and it holds your boat, hopefully in place. It helps ground you.

[00:08:45] So when you're learning the practices that you teach, when you're learning the practices that you might read in my book, you're going to learn different ways to get back to that anchor using what works for you. And so to me it's about practicing different things, and finding the things that really ground you the most, that center you the most, that are the most tangible for you. I think a lot of times when I was first learning mindfulness, sitting practice was the crown jewel and you needed to sit and you needed to do it for a certain amount of time. And what I've come to learn is that to be honest, sitting practice isn't my thing. Walking practice I really love, focusing on my body and getting out of my head I really love. Spending time in nature or flower arranging or whatever self-care activities fill me up, those are the things that I turn to. Which might not be what some other practitioners might say is the most beneficial, but they are for me. And so it's making a program for yourself that you're going to have the most success at practicing. Because if you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole it's not going to work.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:05] Yeah. That's why I think there is so much value in just the experimentation process itself, like trying various types of meditation or different practices, and figuring out what works for you. And I know when I work with lawyers, there can be a lot of discouragement or self-criticism that says you know, I shouldn't be focusing on doing meditation or I should be doing that. But if that's just not your thing, but it's also going to take a little bit of practice to know what you like.

Gina Biegel: [00:10:40] And experimentation. It's your willingness to do things more than once. I always ask teens to practice a practice more than once, at least a handful of times. And the same is true for us adults, over time our practice changes and develops as we change and develop. So maybe a practice that wasn't really something you resonated to at the beginning, I encourage you after time, after being practicing mindfulness for longer, to try some of the other practices that might not have fit for you. Because as you grow and change they might very well be a good fit for you.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:18] Yeah, I definitely noticed when I was going through the MBSR class that I hated doing the body scan, because I was so detached from my body. I would listen to a guided meditation and it would be like, okay bring all of your attention to your left foot. And I'm like, what does that even mean? I know I have a left foot, I know I have toes, but feeling your left toe I don't know that I have any sensation there. And I found that really distressing, but after a while I was like oh, I'm really just disconnected from the body. And I think a lot of lawyers are, I think we tend to highly value our intellect and that's the space that we live in. Can you talk about why it is important to actually connect with the body? For the lawyers that are out there that are like, I just use my mind for everything, why should I care about my body, why does it matter?

Gina Biegel: [00:12:14] Our thoughts unfortunately can be like fake news sometimes, they're not always the most accurate and they're not always the most forgiving or nice to us. So for me, it's helping me because (I'm not a lawyer but I'm definitely a thinker as well and I'm up in my head a lot) it helps me to get into my body. Because usually our body gives off a lot of red flags and a lot of information that we might not pay attention to, and it's also information that's usually much more honest.

[00:12:47] Pain, red flags signals our body gives us is actually there for a reason, and sometimes we don't listen to it and we don't tune into it until it's like a pot of boiling water that's overflowing. So if we start checking in with our body and how we feel physically; do we have a headache that we didn't notice we had, do we have a stomachache or are our muscles tense or tight? Are we sitting with our shoulders really high up towards our head, are we holding our jaw tight or teeth clenched? And if we're not really paying attention to those things, we're missing opportunities to engage in well-being for ourselves, and in and being for ourselves.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:27] Yeah, I remember I was working with a somatic therapist of some sort, and the first time I went in to meet her (because I was having really bad anxiety) she goes, "Well where in your body do you feel anxiety?" And I was like, what, what are you talking about where do I feel it?! No, it's totally up in the head. And of course, that's totally not true. There is a set of physiological responses that my brain interprets as being anxiety. And once that clicked for me that was really life-changing, because I realized when my heart is beating faster and my stomach feels like it's getting tied up in knots, and it's just that really uncomfortable feeling, and then my brain goes, oh I'm anxious. Why am I anxious, like what's going on? And then the brain goes out there really happily and gives you all the reasons in which you are anxious. And just by actually paying attention to the physiological response, and noticing my heart's beating faster so let me breathe a little bit slower and let me try to relax my stomach. So that I'm not engaging in that catastrophizing thinking space, where it's like one anxiety-provoking thought leads to like ten more, and before you know it I'm knee-deep in anxiety.

Gina Biegel: [00:14:46] It's also powerful to actually know what's going on in your body; you have an edge, you have a leg up maybe from some of the people in your community when you're tuning into those things, and tuning into them before they become more chronic problems.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:02] Yeah, definitely.

Gina Biegel: [00:15:04] I remember I was teaching a sitting practice and I was checking in with the group after I was done, and this person said, "You caused me to have a headache." And I was like, well I don't think I'm that powerful but I could have. But the odds are you probably had that headache before, but you hadn't tuned into it yet; you hadn't noticed what was already there.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:26] Right, and that happens I think quite frequently. When I work with lawyers, often they'll say, "I really felt a lot of anxiety doing the meditation." So they then associate doing the meditation with having more anxiety or noticing the stress. And it's like no, no, no, the meditation didn't cause anything. All the stress and anxiety you were noticing was there. But in order to actually know what was going on, you actually had to drop into that place of stillness so you can actually pay attention to what's going on in your inner world. And I don't know if you notice this with teens, but certainly with adults or at least lawyers, they kind of fear doing the meditation practice because they're so not used to just being alone with themselves without external distractions or stimulus, that they can sort of resist it.

Gina Biegel: [00:16:18] I couldn't agree with you more. And I say virtually what you just said about teens, and all of us I think our phones have become an appendage to us. We're so used to constant dopamine hits from what we're doing on social media and our texting or posting or e-mails, that we're also very used to having many things going on at the same time. And so it's like this relationship we have with this external world and the stimuli, and not really learning how to be okay alone and in our own skin and in silence, and that nothing's going to happen if you're if you're not doing something; nothing bad's going to happen if you learn how to just be. And it's such a useful thing to start as early as possible, so for all of you, lawyers out there who have young children or teens, helping them to be okay without a constant device going on is so important. And I had this experience with a teen where I taught a practice and she had tears in her eyes after. And I said, what's going on? And she said, I couldn't stand it, it was so silent in here. Mind you, it wasn't ever silent. I was talking, people were wrestling about.. in fact, it was the winter and a heater vent was going on above us. It was literally above the tables we were around.

[00:17:47] What I learned is that because of our electronic devices we don't necessarily pick up the ambient noises anymore, we kind of don't even hear them. And so when people feel uncomfortable with silence and practice, what I ask them to do is to listen to the ambient noises and listen to the space between sounds, so you can track sounds. Like okay, I heard that noise, and now there's a space, and now I hear another noise. So there is something they can be attending to, and they're not just kind of flailing out there without any direction. At least they have something that they can anchor to, which is their sense of sound.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:26] Yeah, I love that. You know, sometimes I get questions from lawyers about, I want to get my kids to meditate. And I don't have kids myself, but often it just seems like a huge challenge to try to get your kids to meditate. And I'll sometimes say, "Well maybe you should just start meditating and your kids will sort of pick it up by osmosis." Because I don't think just telling your kids to meditate is a terribly effective way of doing it. But for the adults out there that want to try to get their kids into this wonderful practice and for their kids, some tips or suggestions?

Gina Biegel: [00:19:04] I agree with you that having a parent practice themselves and having their kids see them practice is a strong, good, positive, suggestion. Kind of forcing it on your kid is a terrible idea. Just think about yourself as a teen and your parent came and suggested something to you, you wanted nothing to do with it. So sometimes I'll say, maybe a family friend or a relative that the kid gets along with, kind of like a big sister or brother that they feel comfortable with, maybe that person could bring it to them. But honestly, I think if you bring mindfulness into your own life as a parent, you're going to be more present to your kids. You're going to be a better parent, and therefore it's going to change the relationship you have with your kids. Obviously, I would say you could buy my deck of cards or you can buy my book and just kind of set it on the kid's nightstand or on their desk. But honestly, it has to become an organic experience. A lot of the mindfulness and education community, some of the leaders in this community started practicing when they were really young and because of their parents being pretty well-known mindfulness leaders in the community. And they said the same thing, "I'd see my parents practice and I'd be curious about it, or I'd be interested in it." And that got them interested in doing it themselves, without being forced to do it.

I would say there's a really cool organization out there called I.B.M.E., which stands for "inward bound mindful education." And they do teen retreats all over the world, mostly in North America. And I had the opportunity to sit as a staff on one of the retreats in Toronto a few years ago, and it's an amazing experience. It's five days where teens are in the wilderness somewhere, forest or somewhere in a pretty setting, and they're with other teens and they get to immerse themselves in learning mindfulness practice. But not so much where it's so overwhelming, but in a very safe and secure environment. And they're also are not with their TV and their phones and computers. So that's a cool thing that you could have teens that you feel would be a good fit for that, meaning that they have some interest; I wouldn't force them to go. But if it seems like they would maybe like to spend a few days with other teens in a retreat setting, that would be a really good way to go.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:46] Yeah I love that, and being on retreat is such an incredible opportunity. Because you're kind of being plucked from your natural environment, and it gives you the space to think about things differently because you're having different experiences. I'm a huge fan of retreats, so I highly, highly agree with you.

Gina Biegel: [00:22:05] Last night I was having a conversation with another person who often sits on retreats themselves. And for all of you who are going on your first retreat, turn off your radio before you leave your car. Because if you go sit on retreat and you go back and you turn your car on and you left your radio on, it's one of the most jarring experiences.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:24] Oh totally, yeah.

Gina Biegel: [00:22:28] So turn your music off, or leave it on and be surprised.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:35] I remember I did a month long about a year ago, and they specifically said if you don't have to drive yourself home, that's what we recommend. And I was like, "What are you talking about? Of course I can drive myself home." But after not driving and just being in this incredible space of stillness and having a very structured day of sitting and walking meditation, when I got in the car and started driving it felt like the world was moving so fast. Because I wasn't driving obviously for the whole month, the fastest I was going somewhere was walking speed.. and not very fast walking speed.

Gina Biegel: [00:23:16] It's like you want to drive home at five miles an hour because you're like wow this is really fast.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:23] Yeah, exactly. It's a funny experience. I'm curious, when parents bring their kids in to see you, what are some of their reasons typically that the kids are sent to go in and meet with you? 

Gina Biegel: [00:23:38] Mostly due to anxiety, a lot of worries, a lot of depression. Maybe some sort of addiction towards their phone or not being able to put their social down or their video games down, or a lot of the pressures they're putting on themselves. These days it's not even necessarily the parents are putting pressure on them, that they're putting it on themselves. So a lot of times I get a lot of young people who are just kind of wound very tight. And they don't have the emotional regulation or metacognition skills yet to be able to handle a lot that's coming their way. I mean, if you think about all the things that are available to them on the internet and compare that to when we were younger, those things were not readily available. Whereas today, you're having at your fingertips access to so many topics, so many things. And it's overwhelming, it just is. So how can we expect young people to manage what they're having to deal with if we don't teach them how to do those things? Like if we don't teach young people how to pay attention, how are they going to learn it? If we don't teach them about self-care, how are we going to assume they're going to engage in positive coping skills, for example?

Jeena Cho: [00:25:03] Yeah, it's so true. I always thought that was so interesting, where we tell kids to pay attention all the time but we don't actually teach them how. The same thing as adults, we try to get ourselves to pay attention but we don't really have the management.

Gina Biegel: [00:25:20] We didn't take Attention 101, that class didn't come to me.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:26] Right, yeah. Why do you think mindfulness is so important for kids nowadays?  Is it more relevant now than for previous generations? Thoughts on that?

Gina Biegel: [00:25:42] I think it's more important now than ever because of the current climate socially and politically, particularly in the United States. And as you know, yesterday there was a walkout for teens and gun violence. Teens are having to deal with things that are traumatic, and I think mindfulness has many layers to it. Mindfulness is simply put as paying attention. But then, what is a deeper dive beyond just being mindful? Once you're mindful, it's where do you choose to put your attention? Where do you direct that attention? And you can direct it towards things that are helpful and positive, or things that are hurtful and harmful. And so I think there's this other layer to mindfulness, which is being compassionate, being grateful. Learning how to respect yourself and have self-confidence and sense of agency. And to me, those are things that I bring into and under that umbrella of mindfulness. I had a teacher leave me a note, and it said (it was so sweet) "I see you and I hear you," with a big heart in the middle. And it was like, isn't that what we all want; to be seen and heard? Truly seen and truly heard. I mean all of you lawyers out there, your clients all they want is to be seen and heard. And then you think about yourself, all you want is to be seen and heard, by your kids or your significant others. And the love piece of mindfulness, that's the other part. It's that connection, that humanness that we sometimes miss when we're up in our heads.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:36] Yeah, and I think what you're talking about.. and I think sometimes when we talk about mindfulness, like oh you're just paying attention. But it's so much more than that, it's also how we're paying attention. Are we paying attention with this lense of criticism or lense of anger, or are we paying attention with this lense of compassion? And that was very life-changing for me, when I can see different situations and also myself with this lense of kindness and actually giving other people the benefit of the doubt, giving myself some slack. And I would also imagine that that practice of learning to be a good friend to yourself and being kind to yourself is so important, especially as teens.

Gina Biegel: [00:28:26] I have a book chapter in my new book on zooming in and zooming out, and it's helping people see where they put their focus and attention. And what I suggest people do, you know we have these phones and we're going to use them, so bring mindfulness to our phones, to our devices. So what I suggest people do is to do a walking practice, and take pictures of the things that you notice. Things that maybe don't fit or don't belong, or things that grab your attention, that you like or whatever it might be. And then practicing on your phone literally zooming into something and zoom out. And seeing how you can zoom in on that picture or you can zoom out, and then you can translate that into our thoughts. Where do we put our attention, how do we perceive situations? For example, do we only focus on the one bad review we got, or the one bad thing someone said, or can we take a step back and look at all the wonderful plethora and myriad of things that we received. So the zooming in and out, while sounding very simple, is quite deep. And the same can be true of mindfulness, although it sounds simple it's quite complex. And it's something that evolves as you change in the whole lifespan.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:45] Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I love that practice of actually using your phone to actually help you pay closer attention to your life and your experience, it's really great tip.

Gina Biegel: [00:29:58] The other tip I would give for people with their devices is just because you get a text does not mean you have to send one back right away. And I talk about mindful messaging and posting, like consider your intention for sending what you send, whether it's an email or text. Consider how you feel in your body; are you angry, are you sad, are you jealous or resentful? And okay, maybe this isn't the best time to be sending that email. And the good ol' advice of reading it before you send it; I've learned that and it's very much helped me in my own life.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:40] Yeah, totally yeah. And I often say, go ahead and write you're super angry, triggered response. . just don't hit send.

Gina Biegel: [00:30:49] Also, don't address it to anybody. 

Jeena Cho: [00:30:53] Right? Start a brand new email with the 'To' field completely blank, and then write whatever it is. And so often if I can just hold off, when I re-read what I wrote a day or two later it's like, oh that is so not the response I want to send; it's not going to get me where I want to go, and this is not..

Gina Biegel: [00:31:14] It might be what you want to send, it just isn't necessarily the smartest idea.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:20] Right, right, yeah. I think there's a lot of value in brain-dumping and getting whatever it is out of your system, but just not sending it. Gina, before we wrap things up tell the listeners about your new book.

Gina Biegel: [00:31:38] Sure. My book is called, "Be mindful, Stress Less: 50 Ways to Deal With Your Crazy Life." And really, it's a book chock-filled with practices that you can be doing any time of the day, in all different aspects of your life. And I weave through that a lot of positive neuroplasticity practices. My opinion is that you can become mindful, become more aware, spaciously indirected in your awareness.. and then what do you do with it? And it's in short practices, you can change your brain that tilts to the negative to start tilting toward the positive, to feeling better. I say, taking the good in, pull weeds and plant seeds. And resource yourself. So the thing I would suggest the most to all of you out there is engage in self-care. In the profession I'm in as well, I think we tend to put ourselves down that totem pole and put everybody else first and doing things for other people. And we all know that you can't take care of others until you take care of yourself. But then that line of actually engaging in it and doing it is a different story because I think that sometimes we think we can take on a little bit more than other people. And I would say be rigorously honest with yourself, and continually bring self-care into your life. Whether it's putting perfume on or shaving or having a nice cup of coffee, even little minute self-care practices can show you that you matter. And also model for your kids if you have kids, that it's important to take care of yourself, even if just for a minute.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:24] Gina, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with me and for sharing your wisdom today.

Gina Biegel: [00:33:31] Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it. It was fun.

Closing: [00:33:37] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Amy M. Gardner on. Amy M. Gardner is an attorney and certified professional coach who coaches attorneys on career, leadership, and professionalism issues as a principal at Apochromatik. She also provides group trainings and consulting services to law firms and other organizations. Amy has a unique track record of working with law students as dean of students at the University of Chicago Law School and a successful career practicing law, first as a Skadden litigation associate and later as an associate and then partner at a mid-size Chicago firm.

Amy has been interviewed by news outlets and websites on topics including time management, leadership, professionalism, and developing and maintaining friendships as an adult. She received her B.A. from Luther College, her J.D. from the University of Chicago Law School and her M.A. in Public Policy and Administration from Northwestern University. She is a graduate of the Institute of Professional Excellence in Coaching.

Topics Covered

• Amy starts out the episode by talking about her career path and how she kept focused on keeping her career in line with her true self.
• Different important aspects lawyers should be aware of when thinking about time management, as well as different tips and tricks to tracking your time.
• For attorneys with a significant other or spouse, what the most important hour of the week looks like in keeping the relationship strong.
• An amazing perspective on goal-writing to make sure you are staying motivated in reaching them, are realistic and attainable, and how to avoid beating yourself up with goals that seem too hard.

For more information on Amy, find her at the following sites:
www.apochromatik.com
linkedin.com/in/amygardner

Sources mentioned:
http://amzn.to/2BUoXYZ

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Check out this episode!

Transcript

Amy Gardner: [00:00:08] Nor am I investing my time the way that I want to and the way that I need to in order to achieve my goals.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:38] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so happy to have Amy Gardner. She is an attorney and certified professional coach who coaches attorneys on career leadership and professionalism as she is at Appochromatik. She also provides group training and consulting services to law firms and other organizations. Amy has a unique track record of working with law students as dean of students at University of Chicago Law School and a successful career practicing law or as a litigation associate and later as an associate partner at Miss Chicago firm. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause, which will relaunch in March. So often I hear lawyers say they know they should practice mindfulness but they don't have the time, and as I always tell every lawyer they can start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, you deserve to have at least one hour to yourself. Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Also, check it out in the show notes or head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. And with that, here's Amy. Amy, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Amy Gardner: [00:02:01] Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I really appreciate it.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:04] So let's just get started by having you know give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you Dale.

Amy Gardner: [00:02:10] Sure. So as you mentioned I previously practiced law first at Skåne Chicago and then at a mid-sized firm in Chicago. It is now part of Nixon Peabody and after making partner there realized. About a year later that it wasn't quite the right fit for me and quite what I expected it to be. So I went to the University of Chicago Law School as the dean of students there created a number of professionalism and leadership programs there and had the opportunity to do some coaching trainings and start using a Coaching Approach with students which I found really rewarding and enjoyable. And so when I decided to leave the University of Chicago Law School I wanted to hang on to some of the elements that I had really liked about the Dean of Students job and one of those was the coaching aspect. So I completed an intensive coaching certification program and now I coach attorneys and other professionals often as you said on career and leadership issues. So people who are not sure if they want to make partner or people who want to make partner but need to work on certain skills to be able to get there or people who just have been sliding through their careers and need help to start move into moving into a place where they're actually deciding what they want and then for people who want to make a change. I often do mock interviews resume review cover letter review and things like that.

[00:03:33] And then as you mentioned we also do trainings often for law firms and other organizations on things like time management. How to receive feedback how to give feedback how to be a good mentor or good mentee. All sorts of topics like that just trying to help attorneys and other professionals to get rid of the distractions and distortions in their careers and really focus on what they want out of their careers and lives and then how to get there.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:02] I think your career is just so interesting because I find that so often lawyers like really super identify with who they are with what they do. It's almost like the sum of their entire sum of who they are as just being a lawyer and just seems like such a huge jump to go from like being in a law firm to going back to a law school as as a dad and then now kind of going off on your own and doing coaching and you just talk a little bit about that journey. And like you know how did you know that it was time to shift. And did you have any like hesitations about letting go of your identity as a lawyer.

Amy Gardner: [00:04:45] I think for me it was I loved practicing law. I had done two trials. I had second chaired a really big jury trial in Texas. I had taken a bunch of depositions I had done all the things that you're supposed to do. And I had enjoyed a lot about that. I enjoyed the intellectual challenge but several of my professors came to me and said hey you know the Dean of Students is leaving. You should think about doing this. And I was sort of like give me a break. I'm a law firm partner. Why would I want to go be responsible for 700 students.

[00:05:20] And I had the opportunity to do a four week fellowship in Europe through the German Marshall Fund and I met all of these amazing lawyers in different cities in Europe who were doing things that felt more meaningful to me than the work that I was doing at that point and it got me thinking more broadly about what I could do with my skills and experience. And that didn't necessarily involve discovery disputes and things like that and I realized that OK maybe the Dean of Students thing is a good idea and as I talked to friends about it people person after person kept saying oh my gosh that's perfect for you. When I get my notice my old firm the partner I been working for started laughing and said Of course you are of course an expert. And so it was and I was working for a particular Dean makes schol who is now the president at the University of Oregon. And Mike really wanted as he put it. He liked the fact I downshifted from a law firm to higher ed and he really gave me a lot of runway and support to do a lot of things with community building and professionalism and leadership training that the university Chicago Law School hadn't done before. So he really enabled me to approach it from the standpoint of somebody who had been supervising junior associates and knew what they needed and the opportunity to see students learn and grow was really exciting and meaningful. And so I really liked that aspect in terms of when I decided to leave and deciding what I wanted to do next. It was a long process.

[00:07:00] I won't bore you with but I had decided back in 2014 to leave and I stayed for two years after that. And so during that time I had met with a career coach had really I had the gift of being able to think about what I wanted to do and how I would do something that was aligned with my values. But that didn't have some of the drawbacks that I had seen as a dean of students because I had had offers to go to other schools and knew that that wasn't where I wanted to spend the next segment of my career. And I saw how valuable it was to work with a coach who didn't have her own agenda and who simply wanted me to figure out what I wanted and then helped me get there and as opposed to a mentor or even a significant other who often has their own slant or viewpoint on things. And I saw how valuable that was and realized how valuable that might have been. At other points in my career and especially as I started using coaching techniques students realized wait a minute. I really like this and this actually could be my career rather than just a segment of it.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:11] Yeah. You know maybe we can spend a little bit time talking about you know working with a coach. I think it's not something that's necessarily familiar to lawyers. I I would go to college. I love working at a coach. You know how is working with a coach Lessie different than seeing a therapist like what's the role of a coach and why should a lawyer consider working with Coach Sure.

Amy Gardner: [00:08:38] So it's different than working with a therapist in large part because coaching and agreements are set up to be short term. So for example you might sign on with a coach for 12 sessions and that isn't to say that you can do a second set or third set of sessions but it's generally focused on discrete issues so another difference is that with a therapist where and I say this not in any way as a dig against therapists and I have recommended therapy to many many former students and attorney friends over the years but in therapy often it can be more focused on looking at the past and looking backwards and understanding actions and issues and focused on more mental health issues like that that can be more pervasive versus in coaching. If somebody comes to me and says I need to learn how to have a better relationship with my boss we're going to look backwards a bit to understand how the relationship got to where it is but then we're going to be focused on the strategies going forward.

[00:09:44] And it's going to be more focused on not looking at underlying issues I would never ask a client about what my relationship with your father teach you about this situation and things like that if there are deeper issues that I'm going to refer a client to a therapist because I have loads of counseling and coaching training but I'm not a therapist. And so there are times where I have clients who work with both a therapist and a coach. I have clients who have worked with a therapist who then has recommended that they work with the coach. So we're going to be more focused on how the client can move forward and address particular skills and the changes they want to make in life. So things like if you know you want to make partner figuring out what skills you need and then how you can get those skills versus getting into more mental health type issues it.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:37] Can take a little bit about sort of the nitty gritty of how to be a better human. If he had a lawyer and I knew a thing that so many lawyers struggle with that is actually managing their time you know first time as one of our most important resources and most valuable resources and we only get fourteen hundred forty minutes a day and I think there's this expectation that if you just keep adding more things onto your to do less somehow it will magically get done and now that we're in this really all that mindful about what we put on that list is just more stuff gets piled on there and then we and then our entire goal is to just try to work through that to do less and we sort of measure how well we're doing by how many things we checked off our to do that. Now what are some things that lawyers can do to kind of stay on top of their time and manage their time better.

Amy Gardner: [00:11:29] So it may sound counterintuitive but one thing that I found incredibly helpful is for lawyers to track their time and often lawyers say wait a minute I already have to record my time for my job. But what I found with my clients and in my own experience is that there are all these things you do during the day that aren't reflected in your time sheet. And those are things both at work and afterwork. And so what I recommend is tracking all of your time for a week and if you do that you'll figure out where those 4800 and 40 minutes a day are going and then you can use that information to evaluate am I investing my time the way that I want to and the way that I need to in order to achieve my goals and when I've done this for myself. I've often found that I am doing things that don't need to be done or I'm doing things that could be automated or delegated off of my To Do list.

[00:12:25] And so you do lose that dogmeat head us crossing something off your to do list. But what you save is just a little bit of your energy for things that really matter rather than things that are getting you distracted.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:38] Yeah that makes a lot of sense. You know when I was going through my career transition I was working with a coach and she kind of had me do something similar which was as I'm going through my day actually color. Could the calendars I use google calendar show you know when I look back if I the last hour that I spent if I really felt like at ease and if I really enjoy what I was doing I would be a different color. And then if I like really trended and hated what I was doing it be a different color. No it's really interesting to see after a week just seeing like you know where where these little pockets of time where I like really hated what I was doing and there I knew other pockets of time where I was really enjoying and feeling like I was you know experiencing that sense of flow and ease.

[00:13:23] Now I was like OK like now I'm going to try to do more of coming of course like like can't be just all about you know the stuff that makes you happy and whatever the pleasure chasing. But it was a really interesting experiment to do and I think there's a lot of value in just seeing where your time goes and not sort of going through it mindlessly.

Amy Gardner: [00:13:43] It's fascinating that there are all these studies that show that we overestimate in our minds how much we actually work during the week. And this can be really revealing to see OK maybe actually I'm not working as many hours as I think or maybe I'm not spending as many hours on housework and hoping that my significant other being an active part of the relationship as I thought maybe I'm not spending as much time with family members or friends as I thought. And for me sometimes as little things like when I've done this sometimes I've discovered that I waste a lot of time. If I start with e-mails in the morning and that's been really valuable to realize that I'm starting my day with other people's priorities and of course there are limits to how much you can ignore your email for the first hour of the day when you're a lawyer. But it can really lead to some useful insights about where your time is going and where you can find more of it. And like you said where you would like to be spending more time and what's making you happy.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:41] Yeah. So do you not take your e-mails pacing in the morning.

Amy Gardner: [00:14:45] So I try to not check my e-mail first thing in the morning but it's really hard. So my compromise is usually I just skim it to see if there's anything urgent and then I try to come back to it spend a couple hours getting concentrated work done and then come back to it a bit later because I've found that otherwise if I start off by replying to emails first thing in the morning my day goes down a path that may or may not be consistent with what I need to get done that day or want to go on holiday.

[00:15:13] Often if you give things a few minutes rather than responding instantly a lot of things work themselves out.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:19] Yeah that's true. Yeah that's one of the things that I struggle with all the time and I you know and especially when I teach mindfulness classes as one of the things that comes up really often lawyers as I tried to find a healthy relationship with your inbox and that there is anything like single or easy answers to that because I notice you know I also try not to check my e-mail friends in the morning but then I just have that anxiety around like what's that. And then when I do use the Internet you know usually there is like if there's nothing urgent then it's like okay great I can sort of go home at my day.

[00:15:57] But if there is something that requires my attention that can end up derailing my day in a way that I wasn't anticipated in hindsight it's like that. Think how we could have waited until some other day to reach Antti but it's really hard not to kind of get sucked into the vortex of whatever it is. And bandsmen your inbox and I feel like as we kind of evolve and trying to figure out. Like what. Like what. No. And it really hasn't been that binds. So e-mail became such a crucial part of how we communicate and I think we're all sort of struggling to try to figure out like what does that balance look like.

Amy Gardner: [00:16:40] And I think there's a big difference for me. So it's often a client emergency as a client just got an interview on very short notice and I need to help the client get ready for the interview. So it's not an emergency persay but it's you know it's something urgent. But obviously if you're practicing law there are times where I think they have an emergency that may or may not be an emergency. But then there are true emergencies.

[00:17:04] But to the extent that you're just dealing with normal things that are you know the things that make up your day and you have something that is more critical. You have to figure out what works for you in the setting that you're in and with your clients and try to stick to it but it can be credibly difficult to do that.

[00:17:25] You have a tool that you like to use for what your client's son BNA to track their time and see where you know they're spending how they're spending their time so we do. And if your listeners visit our Web site it's Apple chromatic dot com notably in the show notes. But if they go there and sign up for e-mail list and type in the word time to me I'm happy to send them a link so that they can download it for themselves. But it's just one page essentially where you log what you've done every day you do that and I recommend doing it on paper. We just found that there's something about the physical act of writing it down and if you use an app has made that on your phone then you can get sucked into the rabbit hole of all the other things going on on your phone.

[00:18:12] So I recommend using paper and then once you log your time for the week and the second page of the download has an exercise you can do to tally up what categories of your life most of your time is going to and which I think that second step could be really instructive. I think the first step can help you see. Yikes. I actually spent half an hour today trying to figure out a perfect Spotify Running list and I only ran for 20 minutes anyway. And so that piece of it is really helpful for awareness but then that second step I think is really helpful to see whether you're spending your time in a way that's consistent with your priorities and your values. And of course every week is different.

[00:18:53] All that but I really think it can be credibly valuable.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:58] For the lawyers that are married and they have significant other you know people that they love and want to spend time. Like what's your suggestion for kind of carving out time for that person and really prioritizing it or you have like tools or shedded GS or actually cultivating those relationships that are meaningful and important to you.

Amy Gardner: [00:19:24] Sure so I got married at the beginning of my 3L year in law school to my college boyfriend. So many many moons ago. We've had a lot of practice of this and one thing that has worked for us and that has worked for several of our clients is and bear with me because I know this is going to sound completely unromantic but it's a weekly calendar meeting and we really recommend that you set aside an hour where there are no distractions and you sit and talk with each other about your week ahead. And in the coming weeks. And the idea is that it gets you in touch with each other. It gets you in sync and it just helps minimize the chaos.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:09] Yeah I really like that idea that anything there is all this expectation that your relationship should just work magically vanish.

Amy Gardner: [00:20:19] If only if only that level of eight words.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:22] Yeah. And sometimes you actually need a little bit of planning to be spontaneous rationing. Yeah.

Amy Gardner: [00:20:31] We have a checklist that we go through to make sure that we had everything. And it really it makes a tremendous difference.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:40] What is your checklist.

Amy Gardner: [00:20:42] So we like to start with three things that we're grateful for from the previous week. And the idea is that that starts things off on a positive note and helps you share in those joys that you may not have had the chance to talk about yet. And then we focus on the week and weekend ahead. So who has what major commitments who will be home late one night of the week who will be swamped which days. Things like that. And then after we go through the week then we look over the next month to try to minimize big surprises. So who has a work trip coming up who has a big meeting to prepare for that's going to take a lot of her time. Any upcoming holidays or birthdays that you need to get a gift for. And then any upcoming trips or 3 day weekends that you might want to schedule something fun during and then we go on to meal planning for the upcoming week and make a grocery list and then go through duties. Who is going to get the drycleaning when it's ready on Wednesday. Who is cooking that week. And certainly for people who have children you'd want to go through and who's handling the soccer team snacks on Thursday. Things like that and what we found you know there's been a lot written lately about emotional labor and how that can end up divided in a relationship.

[00:21:59] We found that having this meeting where we're both talking about all these issues has really helped make our marriage much more equal that I think it might be otherwise and it just helps you feel more like a teen because you're approaching the league with the United Front you with better communication and it just it increases the feeling of camaraderie when things don't go quite as planned. And for us it's really helped minimize the chaos.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:25] Yeah yeah I can see how this would help to sort of reduce that cognitive overload that we can have a kind of like does running through all of these scenes that we have to keep in the back of my mind. It's like OK like I just have to keep running through that safe. Don't forget it.

[00:22:40] But this actually kind of set its proper place in space so that you don't have to like constantly think about us and what the fear of forgetting is you know that I might do to pick up the dry cleaners or go pick up the milk or raid and I guess this kind of does heal nicely into and it's also like beginning of the year. It's a nice time to start to think about them and I don't even really like that word. New Year's resolution because I think it's just kind of has her baggage and kind of goes along with that. You know I think so I feel like we started off the beginning of the year with all the best intentions but you know eat or kale you get more exercise or whatever it is. Now of course by January were ready for gotten high resolution.

[00:23:27] So suggestions or thoughts about how to sort of plan your goals so that you know you don't like immediately forget it or else it's just one of those things that kind of just add to that sense of burden and guilt.

Amy Gardner: [00:23:44] Yeah. There's nothing actually magical about January 1st. And so I encourage people to give themselves Grace with January and think about goals you know year round because any day is an opportunity to start a new habit or to start working on a goal. One of my favorite resources for goal setting is this book by Michael Hiatt that came out in January of 2013 called best year ever. And so a lot of my thinking about goals has been really informed by my clients programs and books about goal setting. But one of the things that he recommends is we've all heard of SMART goals. He recommends the smarter goal framework which I really love and basically the idea is that your goal should be specific measurable and actionable. But instead of realistic like we normal talk normally talk about with smart goals he recommends that your goals be risky and the ideas that you give yourself the chance to rise to the challenge by setting goals that are going to stretch and challenge you. And so that's one piece that's a little different. And then he of course recommends a b time keyed then the the E.R. pert of smarter is E is for exciting and the idea is that it has to be something you feel inspired by because whether it's the thing itself or the thing that will result. So you may not be excited by the thought of paying off your student loans but the thought of the financial freedom you'll have afterwards might be the exciting piece for you.

[00:25:13] And the idea is if you don't have something about the goal or the outcome that's exciting you're not going to follow through. And then he has a second R so that the smarter is relevant. And they're saying you know this goal has to align with my life my values and then my goals have to align with each other. So if you're a junior associate at a big firm you could have a goal to go from a couch potato to running a marathon in a year. And that might work for you but you're also trying to get home to new baby. Then you might just not have the hours that you'd need each week for the long runs to be able to run a marathon. So it might be that a goal of running a 5 K or a 10K might be more relevant to your life. And so the idea is that from the get go you're writing goals that are going to be achievable but also excite you and be relevant to your life. And so you're setting yourself up for more success just as you're writing your goals than another piece that so many people advise. And I've definitely seen in my own life and with my clients is the importance of writing your goals down and so you can have that frame of reference and so you don't just put them in the back of your mind. And also keeping your y front of mind. So it's when you reach the point that things are you're actually having to deliver on these goals and do the work to achieve them. Remembering your why is so vital to keep you going. I actually had a goal last year to finish my master's degree from Northwestern and public policy and administration.

[00:26:54] And when I wrote out my Y in January it seemed so obvious why I wanted to finish my master's degree and the weekend that my final capstone paper was due. I actually went back to my wife to remember why am I doing this and and it and I was like okay I can get through three more days.

[00:27:11] All right. It was really helpful for me. And then you know we also we often write down our goals and then set them aside and you know January 15th to remember what they were because we haven't kept them front of mind. But we also have a schedule time to work on them. So I encourage my clients to set aside some time whether it's every day or every weekend. When you're actually going to work on those goals. Yeah I didn't really know.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:36] Yeah I think it's you know sometimes really counterintuitive but actually setting goals that I think there's this sense like if I you know set the goal to run a marathon then that's somehow better than you know running a 5 k. But I think sometimes it's actually more helpful to set like a fairly easily achievable goal because then you don't have that sense of discouragement. So by January or if you're not on track to run a marathon then you feel sure discouraging you start engaging in negative self taught. Like oh my guys are you again so going into it and then saying like you know what. I'm just going to you know walk or run specification potato. And that's like an easily achievable goal. And then you can sort of work your way up from there like I often talk to lawyers about you know meditation and then it's like I'm going to start meditating I'm going to do half an hour a day and I'm like No no no.

[00:28:32] You know it's over like two minutes a day you know like honestly that it's just so many of these habits are really more about consistency rather than duration.

Amy Gardner: [00:28:43] Absolutely. And I think that you know help letting yourself build momentum and get some easy wins can encourage you and keep you going. So you could do something if you your goal was to say run a 10k in November you could set a goal. I'm going to run a five K by April. And you know you give yourself that checkpoint so you can feel that sense of accomplishment and celebration and give yourself something that's more readily attainable as a stepping stone on your way to that bigger goal.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:12] Yeah. Anything that feels like a nice place to pause in and if the list is out there that are interested in learning more about you or your services. Where should they go.

Amy Gardner: [00:29:27] Sure so we'd love to have them visit epigrammatic dot com. It's a p o c h r and h t. K dot com. And again if you enter a time in the message on the sign up box to join our email list you'll automatically receive a download of a Time Tracker and that you can use to receive tracking your time helps you get more on top of it and find more time.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:51] And we finally get to one more question. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Amy Gardner: [00:30:00] So to me, being a resilient lawyer means hanging onto the reasons that you went to law school and keeping those in mind, even on the days when it can be very easy to forget. And then every day trying to be a little bit better than you'd been the day before.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:17] Thank you so much for joining me today, I really appreciate it.

Amy Gardner: [00:30:21] Thank you.

Closing: [00:30:28] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

On today's show, I have Ruth Carter! She is a former therapist turned lawyer. She has found her niche law practice by following her interest and passion. We also talked about her long struggle with anxiety and depression. She shares her tips on tools she uses for managing both. 

Ruth Carter: http://carterlawaz.com/

The Anxious Lawyer book is here!!! You can pre-order now and get some goodies. For more information, go to: http://bit.ly/20U8JSW

Upcoming events:

• April 29, 2016: Shape the Law, Unconference for women attorneys. shapethelaw.com/
• June 1, 2016: The Anxious Lawyer book event at Fastcase. Please join my co-author, Karen Gifford and me for a book event from 11:30 AM - 1:00 PM. Register here.

Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com
Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

In this episode, I am excited to have Harvey Freedenberg on to talk about how a daily meditation practice can revolutionize how you perceive the world and potentially help your firm.

Harvey Freedenberg is Firm Counsel at the law firm of McNees Wallace & Nurick LLC, a firm of approximately 135 lawyers in Harrisburg, PA. He will soon be retiring after 40 years of practice that included insurance defense, general commercial and intellectual property litigation. Since August 2015, he's been engaged in a daily mindfulness meditation practice. He's participated in a week-long retreat with Jon Kabat-Zinn at the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies, and has completed an eight-week Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Course.

Topics Covered

• Harvey goes into both how he found himself practicing meditation daily and the benefits of his retreat and the MBSR course he is completing.
• How he went about introducing his firm to his meditation practice and how they received it.
• What the benefits that lawyers can see personally, professionally, and health-wise are when they adopt a consistent meditation practice. He also dives into his past work in loss-prevention work for his firm and how a healthy meditation practice could help curb incidents in firms.
• Harvey talks about resources he would recommend to lawyers who want to start meditating or improve their meditation practice.

For more information on Harvey, find him at:

Twitter: @HarvF

Sources mentioned: https://www.headspace.com/

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book ? Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:00:01] There's really no separation between what you're experiencing sitting on the cushion or on a chair, and the experience that you might have stopped at a traffic light or talking to a colleague about a case, or dealing with a family member.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am so happy to have Harvey Freedenberg, who is the firm counsel at the law firm of McNees Wallace and Nurick, which has approximately 135 lawyers, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. He will soon be retiring after 40 years of practice that included insurance defense, general, commercial, and intellectual property litigation. Since August 2015 he has been engaged in daily mindfulness meditation practice. He's participated in a week-long retreat with Jon Kabat-Zinn, I am totally jealous by the way, at the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies and has completed an eight-week Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Course. We have lots of things in common and to talk about, so I'm really excited.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:01:30] Thank you, and I'm happy to be here. It's really a pleasure when we've interacted on social media. But this will be the first time we'll have a chance to chat so I'm looking forward to it.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:37] Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm curious, what led you down this path of practicing mindfulness?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:01:46] Well it was something that I had dabbled with years ago, and didn't really have any kind of understanding how to go about it. I would say it was probably in the 1990's, and I was one of those people who tried it a few times and thought that the goal was to make my mind blank. And when I couldn't do that I sort of put it aside. So as you said, a little over two years ago in August of 2015 I had just read an article in The New Yorker magazine about the Headspace app. And reading that coincided with a period in which I had a couple of cases that were causing me quite a bit of angst, shall we say. And I thought, you know I'm going to give this meditation a try, to see if I can turn to this to perhaps relieve some of the stress I was feeling from this litigation; it was a couple of particularly contentious cases. So I downloaded the app, which offers 10 free ten-minute sessions, and I have to say I was pretty much hooked from the first session. I gained a pretty quick understanding of how the process of meditation was supposed to work, with the guidance of Andy Puddicombe, who was the one of the founders of Headspace. And the timing was right and it just clicked for me. And I've continued as you said on a daily basis since that time, which was late August of 2015. So it's now been about 27 months.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:23] Yeah, I want to also give a shout out to Headspace. It's such a wonderful program, and I think what it's really excellent at doing is making it a part up your daily diet, just like brushing your teeth. And I think the way that Andy guides you through the process and really explains what meditation is all about, because I think so often there is that misconception that meditation means that we sit quietly and that our mind goes blank. And then when of course that doesn't happen and there's lots of thoughts and sometimes very distressing thoughts, then we become discouraged and say I'm not doing this correctly. And of course as lawyers we are very much focused on doing things correctly. Now I'm using my air quotation marks here. So I am a huge fan of Headspace. Do you still use it?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:04:11] Yes, I still use it. I have been through all the packs as they call them, which are basically structured courses that run either 10 days or 30 days around a given topic. So for example, there's one on stress, there's one on anxiety. There are a number that they started last or I guess earlier this year on various sports and fitness activities. And you work through those on a day-by-day basis and they are all organized around that theme. So yeah, I'm finding that very useful. And I've branched out into other guided, unguided meditation. As you mentioned, I've been to a retreat, which I'm happy to talk more about.

[00:05:00] But that was really the door that opened it for me, and since that time I've recommended it to a number of attorneys in our office. My brother has become an avid meditator as a result of my telling him about it. So it's something that I think is a good entryway for people who might be on the skeptical side about whether or not they can meditate.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:25] Yeah I think it is a really great doorway for entering into your own mind, which is what meditation is all about. Did that happen before or after you took the MBSR course?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:05:43] The retreat was before, I'm actually just finishing up the MBSR course right now. That sort of grew out of the retreat. I decided I would say after about a year or so that I wanted to have a retreat experience, and I was familiar with the Omega Institute from a couple of friends of mine who had attended other programs there. It's located about a four hour drive from Harrisburg, so it was very convenient. And I had read a couple of Jon Kabat-Zinn's books, "Wherever You Go, There You Are," "Coming to Our Senses." And if I have ever anyone who I consider a sort of meditation and mindfulness mentor, I would say he would have to be that person. So when I saw there was an opportunity to study with him and with his son, I jumped at it. So by the time I got to the retreat, which was in May of 2017, I had about 21 months of daily meditation.

[00:06:50] So I considered myself a fairly experienced meditator. It was when I when I got to the retreat (this was not a silent retreat by the way, although significant portions of it were silent, so during periods at meals or when we were not actually engaged in practice) I talked to a number of people who had been through the MBSR, the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course, and that got me interested in taking the course. And I found that there was an instructor here in Harrisburg that was offering that course, so it was convenient for me to take it and I started in October this year.

[00:07:28] So the retreat was just a way of I thought deepening and strengthening my practice, and it was it was quite valuable. It was a different experience from sitting down and meditating 15 or 20 minutes first thing in the morning, which is the typical practice that I have. We were meditating from 6 a.m. or 6:30 a.m. until about 9 in evening, with breaks of course. There was yoga, there was both sitting and walking meditation. There were discussions in the group, so it was a pretty intensive experience. Again, not as intensive as a silent retreat, but certainly something that gave me more of a foundation in a meditation practice.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:20] Yeah. What did you learn or when I say what did you get out of the retreat I don't mean you go to get something out of it. But what did you realize, what did you learn about yourself, or what insights did you gain?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:08:37] Yes that's striving, if you're going to get something out of it you're striving, which was something we were cautioned against. Well I think that is the largest takeaway I got from that retreat was that meditation is really about life. That as John repeatedly said, "You're not here to learn how to do some trick or to operationalize a technique." It's so much more than that, and that everything that's happening in that retreat experience and of course you hope when you walk out of it and come back to your daily life, is part of a mindfulness practice.

[00:09:32] And there's really no separation between what you're experiencing sitting on the cushion or on a chair and the experience that you might have stopped at a traffic light, or talking to a colleague about a case, or dealing with a family member. So it's kind of a seamless integration. I would say that was the strongest takeaway that I took from that experience.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:58] Yeah, what a delightful realization that mindfulness is not something that you do here, and then there's the rest of your life; that it's really an integrated experience.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:10:13] Right. And that's one of the biggest challenges, is to take the experience that you're having, of sitting in silence and watching your thoughts, of not reacting to them, letting thoughts go as they're going through your mind, focusing on your breath; that's the kind of meditation and I'm doing. Translating that experience into your daily life when you get up out of the chair and you have to go to work or some other activity, that you need to have those reminders that this should be seamlessly integrated with your life.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:58] Yeah, definitely. Have you tried to take this work or this practice to your law firm, and if you did how was it received?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:11:07] I did. I have, and I've been very pleased with the results. There's a little bit of a backstory that. Your book has something to do with that, "The Anxious Lawyer" which I was very excited about. I don't remember when I first read about it, but I remember I was meditating at the time, and as soon as I saw this book was coming out I placed my order for it. So I had it on the day it was published, and I read it very avidly. And I recall you and Karen Gifford, your co-author, did a series of webinars, I think it was in conjunction with the National Association of Women Lawyers, I think that was the name of the organization, right?

So I participated in those, I think that was in the fall of 2016. And one of the nice benefits was that you kindly gave everybody who was in the seminar two copies of the book. So I had the copy I purchased, and I thought you know this would be a good introduction to mindfulness meditation to lawyers in the firm. So I sent out a firm-wide e-mail and I said, I have two copies of this book and I included a link to the Amazon description so they could read a little more about it. I said I'll raffle these off, send me an e-mail if you're interested. We have about 135 lawyers at our firm, I think 30 lawyers responded; roughly a quarter of the firm. And I raffled them off and I thought, well there's some interest here.

[00:12:53] And sort of on a parallel track with that, again this was in 2016. One of the things that I do as part of my responsibility as firm council is to attend an annual meeting that our malpractice insurance company holds every June, because part of my duty is lost prevention. So I handle the ethics issues and I also deal with preventing claims against the firm and if necessary, defend those claims. And there were a couple of things that happened at that meeting. One was a gentleman named Patrick Krill, who you might be familiar with.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:35] Yeah, I do know him.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:13:36] Who was the organizer of the study co-sponsored by the American Bar Association and the Hazelden Foundation on mental health in the legal profession, presented the findings of his study. And they were quite alarming. And I don't think it's an exaggeration to use that term.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:00] No, definitely not. The results were that basically a third of the lawyers in our profession are suffering from depression, stress, anxiety, and very, very heavy rates of problematic drinking.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:14:12] Right, and probably some drug addiction thrown in there, which I think he said was under-reported. So that was sort of another piece of the puzzle. And then third was some discussion about a trend in the in the professional liability field, that insurers were starting to see a spike in claims arising from mistakes that were the kinds of things that good lawyers generally don't find themselves getting in trouble for. That is, conflicts of interest and other problems are more the source of malpractice claims.

[00:15:02] And so there was some discussion about what might be driving this. And some of the concerns surrounding technology, the pace of legal practice. The fact that we're basically on 24/7 because I can turn on my smartphone at 11:00 on a Sunday night and find an e-mail from a client. And so with that information, I went back to the firm and I thought about this some more and I said, this is something.. all the issues that are being talked about here, whether it's the issues relating to mental health or problems in practice that might contribute to mistakes, are the kinds of things that I think meditation and mindfulness potentially can be helpful in addressing.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:53] Right.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:15:54] So for several years I was the chair of a committee we have at our firm called the professional and personal development committee, which in part focuses on life issues. In addition to things that will benefit attorney’s practices, but we put a lot of emphasis on wellness at our firm, on making sure that people stay physically and mentally healthy. And I thought this was a program that the committee might be interested in, and I pointed out that I had 30 lawyers who said they were interested in getting a copy of your book.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:32] Yeah, so you had a little bit of data.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:16:35] Yeah, so they eagerly embraced the idea and we agreed on a time to do it. So it was about two months ago that I did a lunchtime presentation. I think we had 25 people sign up for it. Our main office is in Harrisburg and we have several regional offices around the state and elsewhere, and a few people called in, several other people e-mailed me and said they were sorry they could not attend because they had a scheduling conflict, so we had about 20 people in the room. I did about a one-hour presentation, which included a brief guided meditation. Five minutes or so, I didn't want to do it any longer than that. And I got a great response. I know of at least one or two people who at least said they have continued to try to meditate since that time. So I think it was a really good introduction to the practice.

[00:17:40] So that's how I brought it to our firm, and I think it's certainly something that lawyers generally should be introduced to and will benefit from.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:51] Yeah, which leads me perfectly to my next question, which is what are those benefits that you think lawyers can gain from practicing mindfulness? In your own life or in your own law practice, what type of benefits have you seen? And what are sort of the practical implications for other lawyers?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:18:14] Well I have to break this down into two parts. I sort of joke about the first part of this, which is I wish I had discovered this oh I don't know, 25 years ago when I was a busy litigator. By the time I started meditating, I was definitely in the winding-down phase of my active litigation process. But I know enough of it, and I certainly can reflect enough on my experience as a litigator, that first as a way of relieving the inevitable stress that comes with a busy litigation practice. It gives you an opportunity to have something to turn to when that stress intensifies. And I think it certainly is beneficial, I can think of occasions when I was in a difficult courtroom battle or in a deposition with a particularly unpleasant lawyer on the other side, that being able to have the mental space that I think meditation creates would have been very helpful to me. So I think it's an extremely practical tool that a lot of lawyers would benefit from if they could incorporate that into their practice.

[00:19:40] So that's the one piece. The other piece is, and this may be.. I won't say it's unique to me because there are lawyers in other firms that do this job. But I have found it to be extraordinarily helpful in the work that I have done as the firm counsel. What happens typically, I have other people on an ethics committee I don't do this all by myself for a firm of our size, so there are two other members that work with me on loss prevention issues and several members on an ethics and conflicts committee. But the vast majority of questions have come to me over the nine years that I've been doing this job. And they come from every area of the practice. I would say the majority have to do with conflict issues, but they could deal with anything from difficulty with an opposing counsel, inadvertently receiving a document, what do would do with it?

An improper communication that somebody has made with our client, I mean the whole gamut of issues that arise in regards to professional conduct. So it's sort of like a helpline and I've got to be prepared to respond to all these questions. And it's certainly been a great value to me in becoming a better listener, sort of listening for the question maybe below the question that I'm being asked. And to help the lawyers in our firm and to help me sort of clarify what our values. Not every question is as simple as, do we have a conflict or don't we have a conflict. There are a lot of judgment calls that go into this job and in handling, I've literally had thousands of interactions with our lawyers over the time that I've served.

[00:21:55] And I think having a mindfulness practice helps you clarify what your values are, to shift your perspective to look at something from a variety of different angles. I love the idea, I know you're familiar with it, the beginner's mind. I don't approach these consultations with the idea that I necessarily have all the answers, and therefore I'm willing to listen and to sort of allow my perspective to take shape. And I think all that is just enhanced and deepened by a mindfulness practice.

[00:22:39] And then the other aspect, if I can go on for one more minute about this, is on the loss prevention side. These can be very difficult conversations, for anyone who's ever had them. When a lawyer comes to you and says, "I think I made a mistake," or, "I did make a mistake," and you're the one in whom that person is confiding, you're dealing with what can be a very fragile situation. And I think you need to approach it an empathetic way. The lawyer who you're talking to has probably been beating himself or herself up for at least 24 hours, maybe lost some sleep over the issue. And in addition to that, they are imagining all of the horror of the consequences that they think are going to occur as a result of what they believe their error might be. So they're engaged in catastrophizing about that. Your job is to sit there, even in a situation where you say, well this might be bad. And not to respond to it, not to react to it in any kind of an impulsive way. Not to do anything that's only going to exacerbate that person's psychological distress.

[00:24:24] I like to think I had some of those qualities before I started meditating, but I assure you that they are a lot better than whatever I had. Since I have been meditating, because I'm very conscious now of the thought process that I'm going through. So it's just, it's kind of a long-winded answer and there's a lot in there, but there are just so many ways in which this has enhanced the way that I practice, and the way that I really look at what the practice of law is all about.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:02] Yeah. And I know to be true what you're saying just from my own experience and just having worked with lawyers on bringing mindfulness into their own life. You know, for me I feel like it actually has made life clearer. It just feels like we all sort of walk around with these blinders and these filters, but it feels like I can see life with just so much more clarity. And so when my mind is doing the catastrophizing like you say, I can go oh, I'm catastrophizing and I'm literally imagining the worst case scenario because I missed a deadline and I know, maybe forgot to file this thing. And the mind is doing that thing where it inevitably leads to, like I'm going to be disbarred and then I'm going to be homeless.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:25:56] Right, that's it. And the mind doesn't sort of stroll down the road to those, the mind races to the worst possible consequences of what might happen. And this acts as a brake on that. So it's very helpful to have that, I think that kind of approach to it. And I think I have some of the feeling that you have, that I think I am able to see some things more clearly. You know this is not a panacea, it's not going to transform someone's personality overnight. But I think there is an evolution that takes place over time, and if you ask people who are close to me about certain behavior traits or certain personality traits that I had before I started meditating and to compare that to now, they will tell you there's been an improvement. So I would say don't ask me, if you want to know whether meditation is having an effect, ask your spouse or your close friends and I think they will tell you that it has.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:14] Yeah, it's so funny because my husband also meditates with me. And there will be days where for one reason I don't meditate for a few days, and he'll actually notice and go, "Have you been meditating?" And I'm like, no. And he's like, "Maybe you should." So it's apparently very noticeable when I'm not meditating.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:27:34] Well one of the things about Headspace, and it's not without some controversy, is they have something called a streak, where they will tell you how many days in a row you've meditated. And I've had this very long streak, and some people derive that idea. They say, you know it's not about counting and striving and all that, but to me it's useful to track how much time you're doing it, how dedicated you are to it. And I don't know what I would do if I didn't meditate, I wish I was committed to physical exercise as I am to meditation, because I can't imagine what a day would be like if I didn't sit down for at least ten minutes to meditate.

[00:28:22] I have made it an absolute priority in my life, and I try to do it first thing in the morning because I find I'm most alert then. I find if I do it late at night I'm more likely that maybe nod off, which is not the ideal. But it's just, it's like brushing my teeth or eating or getting dressed.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:44] Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I found not only my ability to respond to difficult situations, but also like I'm able to just experience more joy in my life that I didn't notice before. And I think a lot of that is that we as lawyers spend so much time sort of in that space of catastrophizing, and also we have the negativity bias. Where we're constantly looking at all the things that's not going right in our life, and we don't have that counter-balance. And I feel like meditation has really served as a counter-balance. And you know, even being grateful for something that's really important and critical, like oh I have a healthy body, or I have a roof over my head. Or I have you clean water.

[00:29:33] Just so many incredible blessings, and I think often we can just get into this mode of looking at life with this grim lense and saying, oh everything's not okay, and look at all these things that are not going my way. And we really just forget the incredible amount of blessings that we all have.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:29:53] Yeah, and the problem is that our professional training.. I mean some of us come to profession with that kind of mindset, but our professional training exacerbates that if we are already that way, or inculcates that if we aren't. And that is to look at things like, what's the worst case scenario. If you're a litigator, you're by definition in a situation of conflict. One of the things that's occurred over my 40 years of practice is of course there's much more emphasis on alternative dispute resolution, mediation, and things of that sort. But those are still situations of conflict. And then you throw in the fact that lawyers are I think by definition perfectionists; everything has to be done exactly right. You know, you read and re-read a contract or a plea to make sure that you have not missed anything. So all these things are sort of reinforcing that kind of negative self-critical mindset, and that makes it very hard to walk outside your office and look up at the sky, or pick up a leaf and look at it, or focus on what's happening in the moment. You know, John Kabat-Zinn likes to say, "This is the only moment you have. This moment that you're in right now is all you are doing. If you're living in the past with regrets about what you did last week or last month, or your anticipating something in the future, you're missing out on what's happening right in front of you.

[00:31:46] And it's easy to do that as a lawyer. There's always a deadline coming up, there's always a trial next month or six months from now. Your phone's ringing, your clients are upset about what's going on in a case. So I think you need something to anchor you. And I found that meditation for me has been that anchor.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:10] Yeah, yeah. So true. I remember when I did the eight-week mindfulness based stress-reduction class, there's like a day-long retreat that you go on. And we were doing walking meditation and I saw this giant, beautiful rose bush and I walked over to it and I smelled the roses. And it's so cliché, like smell the roses. But I did, and it was just one of those blissful moments, and I remember being like this is why they tell you to smell the roses. I mean, like you know its so cliché. Like oh, smell the roses. But how often do we actually pause to do nothing but savor and smell a rose, which is like this incredibly delightful experience. So now I take it to heart and I make a point to actually go smell the roses when I see a rosebush.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:33:02] Well we just had our retreat for the MBSR course, and I had a similar experience watching a duck glide across a still pond. To stand there and say, when have I done that? I don't want people to leave this podcast with the impression that you're going to be walking around this blissful smile on your face and all of life's stresses will suddenly bounce off of you. It's not that way, but just the fact that more times a day than you could ever imagine you're going to stop, you're going to take a deep breath, you're going to look at something in a new way. You're going to focus on a problem in a different way that you wouldn't have if you were wearing the blinders of your conventional thinking. Suddenly these things are going to start adding up and give you a much richer and fuller perspective on life.

[00:34:10] At least that's been my experience. And in conversations with lots of other people who are doing this as well, I don't think there's anything unique about me by any means.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:21] Right. Yeah, I remember going into my first MBSR class and I was just so stressed and so anxious. And typically they start by asking the group, you know what brings you here. And you kind of go around and everyone shares. And I'm like, oh! There are 49 other people in this room that have the exact same thing that I'm struggling with.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:34:44] The idea of as I've heard it expressed of "just like me." If you look at people who are doing something, or if you're critical of somebody, you're being trained through this process to take a step back and say you know, that person wants the same kinds of things that I want. Maybe they're not going about getting them in the most skillful way, but they're no less human than I am. And it gives you a very different perspective on the people that you interact with.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:24] Right, yeah that idea, "just like me," was so critical for me. Especially for the litigators out there and the lawyers that are handling really contentious cases. Because there are just people that you come across and you're just like, I really do not like this person and I have nothing in common with this person. And you can really start to personalize every interaction with this person. I had this one particular opposing counsel, and she and I were just not getting along, to put it mildly. And we were doing that thing where we would send one nasty e-mail after another, trying to find each other.

[00:36:01] And something clicked inside my head when I learned that concept of "just like me," because I realize you know just like me, just as I find her to be incredibly difficult and I don't want to be on this case with this woman, she probably feels the exact same way. And just like me, she too wants peace and happiness and joy and safety and security; all of these very, very human things. And I think we can often sort of lose sight of that, our common humanity.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:36:34] Well you mentioned the e-mails, sending off nasty e-mails. And that at times has been the bane of my existence, both as an attorney, a litigator representing clients, and on occasion as firm counsel. Of course not too often because I've tried to reinforce that message to our lawyers, but think about the way e-mail, (which has been around basically for 20 years, I'd say since the mid 1990's) people send the most outrageous things and do it in such an impulsive way. And they live to regret it. If you have something that's going to intervene between writing that nasty e-mail that's going to get you or your client into a lot of trouble in that case and clicking the send button, that's a really valuable skills to have.

[00:37:38] And there have been times when I've completely rewritten an e-mail, when I said no this is not the right tone. I just had to get this down, get it out of my system. Now I'm going to go back and re-write it. So I think mindfulness gives you the space that is going to have you sending fewer of those e-mails, or reacting to the bait. You know how there are certain lawyers who's game plan is to try to get you to lose control? Every litigator has them, they have one or two or three of those.

[00:38:17] One of the worst things about caller ID is, you now know you're going to have a phone call with that nasty lawyer you can't stand because you see the phone number or the name of that person. At least in the old days in my practice, the phone would ring and I would pick it up. Now you have an opportunity through mindful to say.. and one of the things I've started doing, this is fairly recent, is I will let the phone ring three times before I pick it up. I've had to educate a couple of lawyers in our firm who give me one ring and then they hang up. But the point is you know, take a couple of breaths, get yourself grounded. It's kind of a mini-meditation that you're doing, and then you're able to field that (what you know is going to be a stressful phone call) with a little more mindfulness.

[00:39:17] I think that's a technique that, you don't have to be meditating to do that. It certainly helps to get into that meditative state, but it's something that I think is very valuable. And then when the other attorney starts hurling insults at you or at your client, you're less likely to get into an escalating war of words. And that could be very valuable.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:40] Yeah and often mindfulness is talked about in the context of there's a stimulus and there's that knee-jerk reaction, and mindfulness gives you that ability to pause before your knee-jerk reaction. Which then becomes a response, so you can sort of respond with the best intentions. Sometimes we send off e-mails and it might not get us or our clients into trouble, but we just know that was not my best work. That was not my most genuine, I didn't show up as my best self when I sent that e-mail. Which was a little bit hitting below the belt or was unnecessarily unkind, or you know whatever that may be.

[00:40:23] And I think as lawyers we have that obligation to try to show up as our best selves, and to really be clear about our intention and what we hold to be true and what we value as sort of the core of who we are as lawyers, and how we're going to show up for every case or every situation.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:40:43] Well one myth that I would like to offer my small debunking of, is the idea that a meditation practice and mindfulness are somehow going to make you soft, weak, ineffective, not aggressive on behalf of your clients; and none of those claims are true. I would say if anything, they're going to make you a better lawyer. Because you're not going to leap to instant judgments. You're not going to think that you know all the answers and find yourself closing off avenues of thought or investigation that might help your client's case. So when I've heard that objection, I think that's one of the easier ones to debunk. I think it makes you potentially much more powerful and much more effective, because you're learning more about how your own mind works. And you know as a lawyer, that's our tool. We don't have machines, we don't have MRI's or x-ray machines, we have our minds and we have our thought process. So anything that contributes to clarity of thinking and soundness of judgment and empathy, that's a good thing. And those are all qualities that meditation fosters.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:23] Yeah. So I guess to kind of wrap things up, now that we've hopefully shared very fully all the different benefits and why lawyers should practice mindfulness, what are some resources that you would recommend for lawyers who want to start meditating?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:42:41] Well I'm allowed to say this because I know you're not a soft promoter, so I would strongly, strongly recommend your book "The Anxious Lawyer" that you and Karen Gifford wrote. The thing that I think is beautiful about that for lawyers is that as distinguished from the many, many hundreds of fine meditation instruction books that are out there (and I've read a number of them), this is specifically geared toward lawyers. It has a lot of information about your experiences and Karen's experiences in practice, and how the techniques of meditation and mindfulness are applied. So if you're looking for a book to get started, I would certainly highly recommend "The Anxious Lawyer". And then Headspace, As I said has been a great app for me. Another app that I've experimented with a little bit is Dan Harris' app, 10 Percent Happier, which has a variety of instructors in the app and it's I think maybe a little glitzier than Headspace. Either one of those. And then there are lots and lots of apps out there, Insight Timer is another one that has free meditations..

Jeena Cho: [00:44:03] Right, that's the one that I use, yeah.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:44:06] So there are plenty of resources out there, but I think your book is as good a starting place as any. And it's also got a program, a week-by-week program for eight weeks to introduce somebody to a mindfulness practice. And it's very clearly written, there's no jargon in there, so go buy Jeena's book.

Jeena Cho: [00:44:34] I appreciate that, that's very kind of you. Harvey, for the folks that want to connect with you or ask you questions, or just want to pick your brain. what's a good place where they can go and do that?

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:44:51] Well I think the best place Jeena, since I'm transitioning out of my law practice, would be on Twitter. My handle there is @HarvF, "H-A-R-V-F". I've also created a couple of lists there, one is on mindfulness and meditation, which has several hundred people that are involved in various aspects of meditation. So you might want to check out that list. So that's probably the best place to get in touch with me right now.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:25] Wonderful. And you are very active on Twitter, and I always enjoy reading what you have to say. So definitely go connect with Harvey on Twitter and I will also include his Twitter handle in the show notes. And my final question to you is, the name of the podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:45:50] I love the name of the podcast, and I thought a lot about this. To me, it's somebody who keeps the practice of law in its proper perspective. And it is someone for whom the various aspects of life, which would include work as a lawyer, family, community service, exercise, sleep, nutrition; all the things that go into healthy living. And through mindfulness and meditation, in my case a practice of mental and emotional self-care, that all of those elements are in harmony or balance. I think if you can achieve that or strive in that direction, that you will be well on the path to becoming resilient.

Jeena Cho: [00:46:45] I love that answer. Harvey, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with me and the audience. I really appreciate it.

Harvey Freedenberg: [00:46:54] Thank you Jeena, it's been a real pleasure. And thank you for all you're doing to spread the message of mindfulness.

Jeena Cho: [00:47:04] Thank you.

Closing: [00:47:05] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I interviewed Adam Feldman. Adam is currently a Fellow in the Empirical Study of Public Law at Columbia Law School.  He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Southern California as well as a J.D. from the University of California, Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall). Prior to receiving his Ph.D., Adam practiced law at McDermott, Will and Emery (Century City, CA) and Kendall, Brill and Klieger (Century City, CA). Adam and I discuss his interesting study on the gender dynamics of the Supreme Court justices and the underlying, surprising statistics of interruptions and how they play into gender roles.

Topics covered:

• Exploring the data Adam recovered in his research.
• Understanding the importance of the study and benefits of the research moving forward
• How Feldman's personal perception evolved throughout the study

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

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Transcript

Adam: The Supreme Court justices had all reached this real pinnacle of legal profession that, perhaps, they were on more equal footing than we would see with mixed genders in lower level legal proceedings or practice.

Intro: Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer Podcast, brought to you by Start Here HQ -- a consulting company that works with lawyers to create a purpose-driven and sustainable legal career.

In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life.

Now your host, Jeena Cho.

Adam: My name is Adam Feldman. I recently completed a Ph.D. in Political Science with the emphasis focusing on law at the University of Southern California. I’m an attorney. I practiced law for about 4 years prior to entering the Ph.D. program. I completed my legal studies at Boalt Hall School of Law in Berkley.

A little over a year ago I started a blog called Empirical SCOTUS where I look at contemporary and historic issues facing the Supreme Court from a statistical perspective. That goes on my academic work looking at the Supreme Court mainly empirically and also recently extended that work to other court systems both domestically and internationally.

My work is mainly focused looking quantitatively at studying judges, judging courts, court opinions, and other phenomenon in the legal sphere.

Jeena: Today I want to talk about the study that you’ve published titled Echoes from a Gendered Court: Examining the Justices’ Interactions during Supreme Court Oral Arguments. Can you tell me the genesis of the study and how you became interested in this topic?

Adam: Sure.

Around 2010, there were few thousands by political scientist that focus mainly on public law. Looking at oral arguments at the Supreme Court and particularly at this phenomena of interruption between justices. It was an interesting focus because although in prior work there was clearly instances of justices interrupting attorneys -- especially the focus on points that were of interest when attorneys were deviating -- there wasn’t really much of any scholarship looking at what happens between the justices at oral arguments.

There were two studies that looked at interruptions and looked at oral arguments and the justices’ speaking behavior and interactions.

I initially was going to look at this from an updated perspective. I wanted to see what was happening with the more modern court where Sotomayor had a few more years on the court where there’s some data on Justice Kagan. I uncovered the data for the 2015 Supreme Court term. I did this kind of soon after the… I actually did this after oral arguments last year before all the decisions were made.

I noticed this kind of interesting from a statistical perspective, difference between the male justices on the court interrupting the females and the females interrupted versus the males where the male justices were interrupting in higher numbers and the female justices were interrupted in higher numbers. This seemed to be interesting because there was this clustering aspect where it wasn’t just one justice but there were multiple male justices interrupting at the high end and multiple female justices interrupted at the high end.

It seemed like something that was interesting. It was notable because of the scholarship on gender interruptions which I was somewhat familiar with prior when look at greater detail after completing this pilot study.

After I completed this pilot study in May of last year, I became very interested in doing a follow up where I look at multiple years of data and also have other variables in the mix. So control factors such as how often the justices were speaking and then other things that might spew interruptions differently for the justices to really focus in on this behavioral interaction between the justices and see if there was really a gender dynamic at play in more than one term.

Jeena: To back up a little bit, can you talk a little bit briefly about what you mean by interruptions. I think we all sort of have an intuitive sense of what interruptions are and also the two different types of interruptions that you talk about in your study.

Adam: It’s somewhat variable how there actually… There’s multiple ways that interruptions could be conceptualize. One way would be -- and as I’m listening to oral argument audio and then coding any time, one, justice speaks over another, two, to look at this large number of potential interruptions in our study, we use the transcripts from oral arguments and we use all the available transcripts from 2004 through 2014.

We did this because prior to 2004, the justices’ names weren’t listed on the written transcripts. So we couldn’t differentiate who is interrupting whom prior to 2004. Starting with 2004, the justices’ names are written on the transcripts.

Any point in time when one justice or when any person at oral argument starts speaking and then stops when another one cuts them off, there’s a mark in the oral argument written transcript where there’s a double dash prior speaker’s at the end of their speech and that moves into another attorney or justices’ speech. So we were able to use the coding on the written transcripts to then come up with statistics of interruptions where essentially one justice was speaking and before the justice was finished speaking, another justice began speaking.

Jeena: In your study you say, at a basic level, research suggests that men tend to dominate conversations while women are traditionally more passive participants. Do you find the same trend at the Supreme Court?

Adam: This was somewhat interesting for myself and my co-author because we had some prior expectations on this based on literature that was available to us in prior studies. But there weren’t any studies within a political institution at the elite level like the Supreme Court.

So we had hypothesis based on other conversational dynamics that we studied but we’re applying them to a totally new area. Although based on non-prior literature, even in the legal spirit, we found that men tend to talk more often and to also be more aggressive in conversation where they would interrupt both male and female colleagues at a higher rate. We weren’t sure if that was going to translate in the elite environment of the Supreme Court.

But once we actually ran the numbers, we saw multiple different trends overtime. One of which was the male justices ending speak more often but also the male justices would interrupt the female justices more often than they would interrupt their male colleagues.

Jeena: Why does that matter? Why does interruptions matter?

Adam: They matter for several reasons. One is that they can be perceived as threatening.

One area of interest for us was what is the effective and interruption. Does it lead to any noticeable effects? One that we pinpoint right off the bat was that when somebody is interrupted they lose their opportunity to speak at a given point in time.

This is meaningful in Supreme Court oral arguments because a lot of what is asked is contextual based on the point in oral argument. If a justice is asking a question based on the previous questions and based on where the point in oral argument is at any given point in time, if they’re interrupted then it’s unlikely that they’re going to get back to that same exact place again.

The interest of interrupt the justice might be forever lost and so that question is never necessarily answered. Also then the information is lost that might be useful for the opinions for the justices both on the merits. This could potentially shift the outcome of the case depending on when an interruption occurs.

A second effect that we found -- and this was something that was drawn from the data -- was that there’s a differential impact on the male and female justice on the court for when interruptions occur. This was one of the more interesting and somewhat startling findings of the study but it reverberates based on prior evidence from the studies both within and outside of the law where female justices, when they were interrupted, would tend to speak less after an interruption and would speak less for the oral argument than male colleagues.

So there’s this perceived threat that we identified in the data where when female justices were interrupted, they tend to speak less.

This wasn’t only a point in time when they wouldn’t speak more -- when any justices would speak more interruption but actually a behavioral shift that we saw that was different in female justices than male justices that very well might disrupt the female justices’ positions and the questioning at oral arguments.

Jeena: That’s fascinating.

Is that isolated to that particular argument or does that have a ripple effect meaning the female justices interrupted and cheat then tends to speak less in that particular oral argument but does that sort of carry over into the next oral argument?

Adam: We didn’t find downstream effects beyond oral arguments in isolation. We think this might have to do with the different questions that are asked in different oral arguments. The justices’ engagement often times has a lot to do with both their preparation in given phase, their interest in the subject matter.

There are multiple factors that we engage the justices from the outside of oral arguments. We think that it has more to do within oral argument effects and that between oral arguments there are so many factors that need to… whether a justice is prepared to speak at greater length or less.

Jeena: I found the study just so fascinating because it really confirmed what I know from my own life experience of being interrupted and having been in lots of different meetings with other lawyers where you just notice the male lawyers just tend to occupy more of the time that’s actually available to speak and also has a tendency to interrupt each other more.

I’m curious, after having done this study, did that shift your perceptions or shift your own behavior about interruptions and how much you speak?

Adam: To better answer that, I should back up for a second and just get into a little bit of how I ended up co-authoring this paper, it shifted the way that I thought about this dynamic between male and female justices and male and female interaction in general.

After I completed the pilot study, I went to a friend and colleague who I respect greatly. Who also studies public law but also has background studying gender dynamics. Her name’s Rebecca Gill and she’s a faculty at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas in Political Science. I had several discussions with Rebecca about what I had found in the pilot study, what was interesting about this to me, and how I was thinking about this and how I was interested in studying this in greater detail.

Rebecca really had much greater background knowledge of the interruption subject matter than I did. That, along with the first person anecdotal evidence of this, really made it interesting to me to engage her and to see if she would be willing to work on this project with me because I knew she had experience and knowledge that I don’t have and that would very possibly deepen my ability to fill in some of the nuances. So, this was really an educational experience for me from the outset.

Going through the literature with Rebecca helped me understand a little bit deeper of a level of what the gender dynamics in conversation really amount to and how the effects of interruptions effects the impact men and women in conversation -- how men and women and how different types of speaking behavior.

Although this was something that I had seen both in my legal career and in other work settings, it was not something that I studied before and so qualitatively I could base some hypothesis on the observations that I had. I didn’t really have a deeper understanding of this behavior in a sociological context. It was very helpful, for me, to have a co-author who would really help me learn about this dynamic and how we could apply what was already known to the Supreme Court.

Jeena: I’m curious after, or before or after you’ve done the study -- I don’t know if you’d be willing to out yourself. Do you notice the trend in yourself, just that natural tendency for males to interrupt females more?

Adam: I’ve been more tuned in to this since then. I think you would actually be done to ask a question before about the two different types of interruptions.

We look at both interruptions that end up cutting a justice off at a given point in time where a justice brings up a new point. We also look at interruptions where a justice might be supporting in other justices’ point but still talking in their place. Even if it’s a support of interruption, this very well might lead to the interrupted justice losing their train of thought, losing the ability to ask a question at a given point in time.

What I found in speech, and I found this much more in my interactions with female friends and colleagues, was that I might want to insert a point not to change the topic but maybe to echo a thought or to add something that I thought was important into the conversation before the other participant in the conversation was finished making the point.

I did notice this happen relatively frequently in conversation. It’s something that I was not really at all tuned into prior and it was interesting to me because I never thought of myself as an interrupter. I’m actually, I think, often times somewhat soft spoken. When actually tuning in to this, it was much more of a trend that I notice within myself that I’m happy that I’m more tuned into now because, I think, the first step in changing behavior step we’re not thrilled about is becoming aware of them.

Jeena: Yes. I teach mindfulness which is all about awareness.

I want to put a pin in that about what we can actually do to change this behavior. But before we do that, you talk about the difference between the genders when they speak. So you think about apologizing, politeness, and differential speech. Talk more about that.

Adam: We wanted to, in the study, look at speaking behavior in general and see… Sequentially in the paper, we look at the differences in gendered speech behavior prior to looking at the interruptive behavior.

Based on prior socio-linguistic literature, there were many different phenomena that we could attempt to understand at the Supreme Court level and that we also thought would correlate with interruptions, that would correlate with aggressive and passive behavior. We thought that if these interruptions were really significantly impact in female justices’ ability to speak oral arguments that we might see some of these other behavioral pattern in speech.

Two of the patterns that we looked at were deference and politeness. Politeness more in the apologetic sense really. We want to see if the female justices were apologizing more frequently than the male justices. We’re also interested in whether the female justices were actively differing to the male justices more often. If two justices were competing to speak at a point in time, if female justices would yield the oral argument speaking time to their male colleagues.

We did find that in raw numbers that both of these expectations were occurring where the female justices and one in particular, Justice Sotomayor, was apologizing at a grade higher than her male colleagues. But this was also linked  to the female justices on the courtroom generally. We did see this apologetic behavior and a little bit less so but still to a…

This was in the female direction where we saw this deferential behavior as well where the female justices were willing to yield the floor. This was a little bit muddied because we have Chief Justice Roberts also who is a male justice and often times will be the justice that dictates who should speak when it’s unclear which justice had the floor at a point in time.

Because Chief Justice Roberts has a little bit of a different rule than the other justices as he’s somewhat the unofficial moderator of oral arguments, this change, I think, the deference dynamic somewhat from what would have been… We’re looking at nine justices who were in exactly equal roles during oral argument. The apologetic behavior was a little bit easier to identify than deferential

Jeena: Looking at the study, it’s really interesting that Roberts, his “I am sorry account,” is at 30, 34 followed by Justice Kagan at 92.

Now, of course, we have more female justices on the court than before, did that actually change the rate of interruption?

Adam: It did. What we found which, I think, kind of helps explain the story and conceptualize a little bit more is that the two more recently appointed Supreme Court female justices: Justice Kagan and Sotomayor were more active speakers in oral argument than the two prior female Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg and Justice O’Connor. There is a correlation that we found between how often the justice speaks, how many words a justice speaks, and how frequently they’re interrupted.

With greater rates of speech we did see more interruptions. But we also found that Justices Kagan and Sotomayor were interrupted at higher rates than Justice O’Connor and Justice Ginsburg. Justice O’Connor, we only have limited data for because she retired in 2005 and our study begins in 2004. We only have preliminary remarks that make about interruptions that involved her.

We do see the rate increase with Justices Kagan and Sotomayor and it made us wonder whether their increased speech or their greater speech relative to the other female Supreme Court justices acted as some… would have been a threat to a male justices’ dominating oral argument and backlash to that whether conscious or more likely subconscious was more aggressive behavior from some of the male colleagues.

Jeena: Interesting. Is that because they’re violating gender norms?

Adam: Very possibly. We did find that gender norms were prevalent in oral arguments. Somewhat surprisingly getting back to this point that we began kind of naively, assuming the possibility that because the Supreme Court justices had all reached this real pinnacle of legal profession. That perhaps they were on more equal footing than we would see with mix genders in lower level legal proceedings or legal practice.

We expected, at least the possibility, that the gender norms wouldn’t hold strongly in the Supreme Court but they did for the most part. And so because of the other norms that we noticed and that we found with our data, we think that a greater number of these norms were likely and are likely prevalent in the Supreme Court oral arguments and justices’ interactions.

Very possibly, this is due to the socialization of the justices because even though they’re at oral argument, they’re at this high point in legal profession, the justices all had careers prior to that and had backgrounds where they were raised based on gender stereotypes and where this likely created into their subconscious behavior from an earlier point in time.

At the point where they reach their careers in the Supreme Court, they’re already prime gender norms that were not, and are not, easily shed. We assume that the justices’ backgrounds likely contribute to the way that they interact in oral argument than the way that the interrupted behavior is really spewed to where the female justices are interrupted at a greater rate than the male colleagues.

Jeena: You point that in your study that professional women, including politicians, are expected to sort of conform to the gender norms. What happens when we break these gender norms? What happens if a woman justice, or a woman lawyer, or woman politician asserts herself, becomes more aggressive .What does the study tell us about what happens when women break the gender norms?

Adam: We find in the Supreme Court that when the female justices are more active speaker, they’re also interrupted more frequently. This seems like almost like a backlash and then it can work to… Since we see that female justices tend to become more passive after they’re interrupted, this backlash is somewhat effective if the goal is to reassert these gender norms where the male justices speak more often and the female justices was often.

One thing that we found from other studies that was really interesting that we can’t say for certain apply at the Supreme Court level but we do feel like there’s a relatively reasonable chance because this works in other settings but is also occurs at the Supreme Court level is that in behavioral studies of gender interactions, when females interrupt male, this has been seen both by the group as a whole as more detrimental and really is more a negative behavior than when males interrupt.

This notion that females interrupting are judged to a higher standards or to a different standard than men, this plays into our findings that the female justices are treated differently and treat themselves differently after they’re interrupted in the Supreme Court. And that this very well might have to do with these differing perceptions on the effect of male justices interrupting female justices.

Jeena: When women break the gender norms, they’re judged more negatively by both genders. It’s not just the other men in the room that sort of judges that behavior as a negative behavior.

Adam: Yeah. Both the literature and our own findings show that both genders are -- both men and women, I should say, are judging according to the same standard or similar standards that the priming really [unclear 00:34:42] to everyone. Because we’re primed and socialized into this culture of male dominance, we see this effect in both men and women.

Jeena: What is the goal? Is the goal to sort of get rid of these gender norms? Is that even possible? Is that even desirable? Is it a matter of train the men to interrupt less? Is it training the women to speak up more and to take a more assertive position? What does literature say? What are your personal thoughts on this issue? How do we change this?

Adam: I think there are two ways to look at that question. One is what might be the best approach and two is what is most practical.

If we were looking for true equality, we could come up with a system, through oral arguments, that is more equitable from the starting point so that more aggressive behavior doesn’t necessarily garner the ability to speak more often. Whether that’s pushing a button when the justices break speak, whether that’s ordering the justices eventually so they each are given equal share of time to question or even having the chief justice possibly be the one who has a greater role in moderating with this notion in mind that the allotment of speaking opportunity should be equal between the justices.

There are some of these more rigid frameworks that could be employed although we don’t think are necessarily practical given the history of oral argument and the likelihood of major change at this point in time. It’s a practice that’s been in place since… We are from England prior to coming to United States and so it’s unlikely that we’re going to change the dynamics so greatly in a formal way. Although we think of these as possibilities, we think that informal means of change might be the most effective.

We’re not certain that, just like I noted in my own experience, we’re not certain that the justices are aware of this behavior. We’re not certain that they’re not only aware that behavior occurs but also at the numbers and the relative frequencies with which female justices are interrupted and male justices are interrupted.

The starting point might very well be to educate the justices a little bit about both the differential behaviors and about the differential outcomes between the male and female justices and how this affects the trajectory of oral argument, we think that a starting point might very well be to make this more of a conscious subject on the justices’ minds rather than something that’s whether subconscious or conscious, something that is done because the justices are used to certain gender dynamics due to their socialization.

Jeena: Will the similar awareness training be effective for the general populations or for lawyers in particular?

Adam: Possibly as a starting point. But the problem with going about it this way is that some of this is so deeply rooted in our culture and in our psyches that it’s unlikely do necessarily change even with education. It might be something that shifts in the short term. But to make long term change, it’s a point that really has to be reasserted and on a continuous basis.

One approach might be changing the setting somewhat making settings more accommodating for the speakers. This might be taking more active approaches for lawyers, taking more active approaches in meetings to engage the female attorneys and then to prevent some attorneys from taking most of the time from others.

I think, at some situations, there might be more formal means to shift this differential type of interaction. So education is definitely a starting point. It’s not an end point. And because this is something that most everyone has grown up with, it’s not likely that education, in one point in time, is going to then drastically change behavior moving forward.

Jeena: Right. And I would also imagine it’s not just enough to educate but also that there has to be a desire to actually want to change it. If a male just thinks, “Well, I’m happy with the way I talk and I think it’s just fine that I’m interrupting,” I think all the awareness in the world is probably not going to shift the behavior.

Adam: Yeah. I think that’s definitely true. What’s hard to gauge is what level of awareness both men and women have of this to begin with because as I’ve seen and as the studies show, this has become… we become so acculturated to these type of interruptions that it’s not even recognized. It’s just a normal pattern of speech.

Education is definitely, at least it means, to make sure that this becomes a subject of discussion. That it’s something that’s on the forefront rather than the background of people’s minds.

You’re right that education isn’t going to change somebody’s behavior that doesn’t wish to change if there are no associated penalties for acting in a certain way or no guidelines that specify the way that people should talk in a given environment, giving equal opportunity to all participants.

We really see this, the possibility of bringing this up as bringing this to people’s attention as it might not be. Beyond that, more active approaches within different settings, I think, could equalize the situation somewhat and then some of this is going to likely have to be the way that we socialize the next generation so that the norms that were set that are really hard to move away from, that are still being reiterated with current professionals, don’t take hold as strongly in the future.

Jeena: At what age do these gender norms become the norm? Are there studies that show at what age that you’re seeing these gender norms in?

Adam: I guess the differentiating factor is there’s studies that are pre-oral behavior -- so pre-speaking -- that show that we’re already priming boys and girls to act in a certain way, to interact in a certain way. Where some of this… looking for more differential behavior in females, girls, and more aggressive behavior than men is already becoming something that boys and girls are shown and are taught.

Some studies also show that kids mirror their parents. They see the way that their parents interact. When they see these gendered rules that they very well might see that as a way that they should act as well. This happens from a very early age. By the time that kids are beginning to speak and interact with one another, some of this already might be filtered into their understanding of how to behave.

Jeena: Wow, that’s shocking. How do we reverse this? How do we change this if these kids are sort of soaking up these gender norms before they’re even able to speak?

Adam: Well, I think that gets back to somewhat how we educate ourselves; how we raise the next generation.

If we’re somewhat conscious of this and also take a more active approach to equalization in different settings and allowing equal opportunity to both men and women, then perhaps we’ll have a better shot at beginning to mirror the types of behaviors that we hope to see in the next generation in ourselves.

It’s a multi-faceted approach to both educate kids when they’re young and to try to engage in some of this shifting behavior in ourselves. That’s really the only way that we’re going to see change from the ground up. It’s important to both integrate this as best we can within our own lives but also to start kids off in early age and seeing that it doesn’t have to be a situation where males are dominating interaction.

Jeena: Adam, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate the conversation. I think it was really enlightening.

Adam: Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it as well.

Jeena: Adam, for those that are interested in learning more about your study or want to get a hold of you, what’s the best way?

Adam: My email address is adfeld@gmail.com. I’m more than happy to respond to questions via email. If people are interested in some of this empirical work, along with the pilot study and want to look at in greater detail, my blog is Empirical SCOTUS. So www.empiricalscotus.com and you’re more than welcome to browse the site.

Jeena: Fantastic. Well, hopefully our listeners are a little bit more educated about these gender norms and interruptions and, perhaps, might feel inspired to just notice these patterns in their own lives and perhaps we can slowly, but surely, change these interruptions between people so we can all have better communications.

Adam: That does sound like a plan that we should try to bring to fruition.

Closing: Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Jennifer McClanahan-Flint on to talk about diversity, inclusion, and the impact on being a woman of color in the legal industry.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint is the founder of the Leverage to Lead Group and Programs. As a Career Strategist, she works primarily with ambitious women of color to help them navigate bias, compensation, and their career progression so they can continue to rise. Through her work at Leverage to Lead, she has built a process to help her clients get clear about what they want out of their careers and build a plan to get it. She works with her clients to help them stop trying to fit in and identify how their difference is the key to their continued success. One of the best ways to get to know more about her and her work is to receive her weekly newsletter. You can sign up for it here. If you would like to schedule a one-on-one consultation, email Jennifer at support@leverage2lead.com.

Topics Covered

• She defines what diversity means to her and why diversity should matter to lawyers and law firms.
• The two types of diversity and how our awareness to these is paramount in moving forward to a more inclusive work environment and society.
• How diversity is related to mindfulness and how mindfulness can be the best tool for overcoming adversity and uncomfortable situations.
• Why leadership matters in diversity efforts and how everyone should see this as a community effort.

For more information on Jennifer, find her at the following sites:

www.leverage2lead.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermcclanahanflint/

Sources mentioned:
https://www.amazon.com/White-Like-Me-Reflections-Privileged/dp/1593764251

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:00:02] That's why I think the work I do with women is so important, because they have skills just based on who they are that they've had to develop and they've had to refine, and they refine and incorporate it so much they don't even know it's a skill anymore. It's just how they navigate the world.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:38] Hello my friends, thanks for joining us for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Today I have Jennifer McClanahan-Flint, who is a founder of Leverage to Lead Group and Programs. As a career strategist, she works primarily with ambitious women of color to help them navigate bias, compensation, and their career progression so that they can continue to rise. Through her work at Leverage to Lead she has built a process to help her clients get clear about what they want out of their careers and build a plan to get it. She works with her clients to help them stop fighting to fit in, and identify how their difference is the key to their continued success. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:01:21] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:23] So let's just start with having you give us a 30 second overview of who you are and what you do.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:01:31] So as you know, I'm Jennifer McClanahan-Flint and I'm an executive career strategist. And my goal is to work with women of color and really help them face the future with anticipation and not apprehension. I think so often we feel so uncertain about what we should do and how we get there, and how does race, bias, and discrimination impact that. And so what I really do to work with my clients is give them certainty about who they are, their value, and what they want, so that they have the capacity to navigate uncertainty, especially in these uncertain times.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:12] Yeah, and I think that's such a hard practice, to be become more comfortable and finding ease in light of uncertainty.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:02:22] Absolutely. I mean you know we talk about in your work is focusing on mindfulness and meditation, and being mindful about who you are I think is one of the biggest challenges that we have as individuals.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:36] Yeah. So I wanted to have you on the show for so many different reasons, because I just so admire all the work that you are doing. But I wanted to specifically talk about diversity and inclusion, and also just the impact of being a woman of color in the legal industry. So, you work a lot with lawyers, I guess just maybe we can start by talking about (I feel like the words diversity and inclusion get thrown around a lot, but) what does diversity actually mean to you?

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:03:12] So diversity really is all about difference ultimately. I mean, I think we can use diversity in different context, but difference is at the root of what diversity is all about. Now when we think of it from an equity standpoint, and we talk about diversity, it's about differences that impact social status and differences that impact access to resources and opportunity. And then other privileges and disadvantages of entire groups of people in a community, based on their diverse attributes.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:45] Which leads me to my next question, why does it matter, why does diversity matter? Why should law firms care about diversity, why should we as individual lawyers care about diversity?

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:03:56] Absolutely, right? I mean we hear diversity is good, but why is diversity so good? But ultimately, diversity helps us learn. It encourages us to think critically and differently, and consider information more accurately and open-mindedly. And ultimately, that's really what we all want. It prompts us to think creatively instead of making assumptions about what we all know or believe. And that in turn actually cultivates growth in us. Because often when we don't have diversity, we all kind of think and assume the same things. I mean, we're comfortable with the friends that we have because our friends think like us. And so what we really want is diversity so that we're with people who stop and make us think.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:40] Yeah, and there's so much research out there about how teams that are more diverse are actually more successful, but also that they also have more conflict. And it makes perfect sense, because if you have carbon copies of each other, if all the people on your team went to the same law school and grew up in the same neighborhood.. I mean not that every single one of those people are going to think the exact same thing, but that you will be biased because of your life experience and perspectives. And we want to have a group that has huge range of different life experiences and cultural backgrounds, and just a different way of viewing things. And I think we can often forget that the way that I view the world may be very very different than the way you view the world.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:05:32] Right? And you know, this actually brings up a couple of tensions in diversity. Right? Because all that diversity is really good, and most people are really good with "makes things different diversity," "makes things interesting diversity." Diversity that's interesting, you've traveled the world, maybe we're all lawyers but you grew up here and you've had this experience; "it makes things interesting diversity," when you get to know, people we like that. But then there's the "makes me uncomfortable diversity," which is really kind of at the root of what we're talking about, diversity that makes you stretch and that makes you grow. Because "makes things interesting diversity" means that at some level, you're asking them to be included in how you see the world. Right? So they might be different, but there's also this ability for them to come over to your side of the fence, right? Or you can go over to their side of the fence, which brings inclusion in areas that you're already comfortable, not really stretching. "Makes me uncomfortable diversity" is the diversity where you're like, I don't even know what to say to this person; I'm not sure how to communicate. It's so vast and inclusion becomes something about equity, where everyone has an equal voice at the table, not that everybody's comfortable at the table.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:45] Yeah, and it's been so interesting ever since the election, it almost seems like there's like a hyper-focus on diversity and inclusion. And at the same time, as as a woman of color I never had such a moment where I felt so uncertain and just fearful, you know? And I talk to a lot of people, especially people of color that feel this way. And I think it's almost hard to relate to that or even understand what that feels like. I mean you know, I'm an immigrant. And because of that, I have certain life experiences and perspectives, and I always sort of bought into this idea that you come to America, you work hard, you do what you're supposed to, and that you'll have a place where you can have a sense of belonging; which is what diversity and inclusion is all about. It's like having a place where you feel secure and safe and you can express who you are as a person. And I don't feel that way, it almost seems like the foundation that I lived on has completely shifted. And now I feel fearful; I feel fearful for my safety, I feel fearful for other people of color and their safety.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:08:03] And you know, it makes me think of a couple of things. Just as I work with my clients, and this is just something that I learned as I work with my clients, like how do they feel and how do we manage it and how do I manage my own feelings around that. Because I absolutely echo, I've never felt so uncertain in the world as I do now, in a country that is my country; there is no other place for me to be. And one, as as a woman of color, as executive level work, a very successful career. Part of what I've been able to do, and other women of color do all the time, is they're like an ambassador to so many different cultures. You have the capacity to figure out how to make people comfortable with you in a culture that's not your own, right? You learn, whether consciously or unconsciously, how to adapt and study a culture so that your presence makes other people comfortable, right? Makes you fit and gives you opportunity. I think it's very unconscious when we do that, and there was some certainty about being able to be your level of safety, or when you weren't safe. Like you could go into a culture and know I'm not safe in this culture, I don't want to be in this culture, and I'm going to go back to myself and find out how do I navigate an area that's outside of who I was fundamentally or who I was raised to be. And now I'm working with all these white males, how do I make myself comfortable in this culture?

[00:09:37] And those things that we've known, and known how to navigate for so long are off the table I feel. So this certainty that you've navigated with being different and being comfortable with being different, and knowing when your difference is something that people can accept and can go with and that you'll have opportunity, and know instinctively that's not my group and I'm not going to try and be part of that group. Now all of that to me, it's a surprise personally how many people are comfortable with racism. Not to say they are or they aren't racist, but there's so many people that either are not conscious of it or are comfortable with it, it gives me pause. Which goes back to my bigger issue of "makes me uncomfortable diversity," "makes me uncomfortable diversity" is only successful with leadership. You have plenty examples around the world, and we can now look unfortunately in the United States, where diversity raises conflict. "Makes me uncomfortable, I am not comfortable with you diversity," conflict is prevalent. The thing that makes "makes me uncomfortable diversity" work is leadership, and you can do it within your organization. And we need it here in our country. But what our leadership is giving us now, and I don't mean simply our president, I would say from our congressional leadership, from our media leadership, is that we're digging in to our differences and making those the things that are most important. As opposed to the fact that our differences are the things are going to make our country better, smarter, stronger.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:10] Right, and again I just just shifting and not looking at just the political landscape but even when you look at the Fortune 500 companies, and their leadership makeup. And it's just nauseating, just how white, older white male that those positions are held by. And it also feels exhausting, because it's like every one of those companies probably have a diversity statement and a commitment to diversity. But then it's like, you can't tell me that you're truly committed to diversity when you don't have any person of color on your executive team or on your board. But yet they will very strongly argue with you that they deeply care about diversity and inclusion, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:12:05] Well, I'm not their minds. I'm not in their head so I don't know what they're thinking about that in particular. You know, I work with individuals who are in this situation. And basically I look at my clients and I say, "What else would you do?" So you know, can you understand why they say that they're diverse and they're not? Probably not. But here you are a diverse woman, in this organization. So the question isn't what do they think of you, the question is what do you think of yourself and how are you going to navigate it? Because what is your option, what are your options? Where are you going to go? You can't decide to not be a part, you've got to go make a living. You've got to go use this education, you've got skills and values and things that you're contributing. So the question isn't how can I make them more diverse or more understanding or more aware or more woke. I mean hopefully they get there, but the work I do with my clients is about how do you navigate this?

Jeena Cho: [00:13:07] Yeah I mean, it's almost like moving past the point of "this is unfair."

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:13:12] It's been unfair for years, I mean that's the other thing I think when I look at our political landscape. I want to say, yeah I'm not down with our current president, but our current president hasn't done anything that has not been happening in corporate America for years. To all of a sudden point to the president like, we have a problem. He is just outlying, he is laying bare the problem that has been there since the founding of the country. Since any woman, no matter what her color, has decided to go and become part of the workforce. Women of color, I mean if there wasn't a problem we'd have a plethora of black, female CEO's. I mean look, there's not a harder working, more understanding, more compassionate, more flexible group of women or people on this earth as black women. And to know that there's not many black CEO's, we don't need a President Trump to tell us that there's a problem. So I think it's clear now that we have a problem. I think it's really clear that the people who used to say, oh we love diversity and we love you we just don't really know how to do it; there's a little bit more to that, like you don't want to do it. And that's what I think this current climate has shown us, that they're really comfortable not being diverse. It's not that they just don't know how to not be diverse. And it's a front and it's shaky ground, right? Then there's this, we can't really give the benefit of the doubt like we've done before because we know it's been intentional, and now we know it's really intentional.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:55] Yeah, you know I spent a lot of time traveling around the country and speaking at all of these different bar organizations, and I'm just shocked. I mean this is the legal profession, we're supposed to be the ones that uphold the law and hopefully create a more diverse and equitable world, and just so many of these conferences I go to are just full of white men that are speaking on these panels. And so sometimes I'll actually reach out to the organizer and be like, you know 86 speaker and you had two people of color; those are not great odds nor numbers or statistics. And they'll say, well you know we just really wanted to have the best speakers. And I'll say, well what did you do to go about actually finding diverse speakers? Well you know, I just asked all of my colleagues. Well how many of your colleagues are people of color, how many are women? And they're like, well I have one black lawyer friend. And it's like, no. And so I think that actually is what contributes to what's happening. It's like we tend to have circles of friends or acquaintances, or we work with people that are like us. You know, I think there is just that like tried mentality to want to have a sense of belonging and security and safety with other people that are like you. And it's really uncomfortable to reach across the aisle and reach out to people that are different from you, whatever the dimension that may be.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:16:39] So I think what complicates that (just to go in), what complicates that is that when you do decide that you're going to be diverse, your diversive people who make you uncomfortable. So even if you get past the idea that we need to branch out and I need to have a wider net, so that I can begin to incorporate diverse perspectives and ideas in what I know and what I practice in a particular industry, in a particular organization. It's only done if I'm comfortable with this level of diversity, but I will not go to diversity that makes me uncomfortable. So I think that's even, there's a strata there. Which compounds it, because then people think they're being diverse because they have a black friend, right? I'm diverse because works there, but it's because they're comfortable with those women. And what's happening, to me which makes me so sad, is that part of what's making them comfortable is that that person finds himself oppressing a part of themselves in order for that group to be comfortable with the fact that it's "makes things interesting diversity," not "makes me uncomfortable diversity," right?

Jeena Cho: [00:17:48] Yeah, and and we've also had to learn to walk that tight rope, to make people comfortable.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:17:58] Absolutely, but what my work is is about stop walking the tightrope. Because this is the bottom line - what we've done is we've tried to fit in, right? So you become successful, you start to get at a certain level in your career, and you attain success. And then you kind of plateau and it's frustrating, like why can't we get beyond? And we tell ourselves that we're going to do all the right things, and all those right things are about trying to fit when you don't fit. Like, it's apparent that you aren't "WMP", white male partner, white male privilege, white male whatever you want to call it. And at some level you stop fitting, no matter what your actions are.

[00:18:41] And so, the answer that I have found that makes my clients successful, is that you start digging into why you're different. Because if you're there and you start leveraging your difference, you start leveraging different perspectives, you start leveraging different ideas, you start coming at things in a way that's surprising, and your difference becomes an asset. And it's unfortunate, it shouldn't be our responsibility to make that happen, but it is what it is so what are you going to do?

Jeena Cho: [00:19:12] Yeah. And I think this line of conversation actually leads very nicely into what I want to talk about with you, this idea of mindfulness. So when you were talking a little bit earlier about being with what is uncomfortable, that is almost like a definition of mindfulness, right? It's like okay this is really, really hard and this makes me feel really, really uncomfortable. And this is a really difficult thing for me to acknowledge about myself or my world, but despite that I'm going to show up for it. So talk about diversity and how it's related to mindfulness.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:19:55] And I think I'm going to go back to my definition that makes me uncomfortable to. I think make makes things interesting. Diversity there are different for me but they are interesting and are kind of like doesn't really wounded self to mindfulness like makes me uncomfortable. Diversity is when you have to stop and think about your next word.

[00:20:13] It makes what you say and how you think more thoughtful and intentional. So if you're with if you don't have black people in your life and you are across the table negotiating with someone and ethnicity comes up and you have to say black or African-American and you're asking yourself like well do I say black or do I say can I say. I don't know how to reference. Suddenly you become a lot more mindful and everything that happens in that conversation not just around the topic. The same thing is if it's a transgender person. Do I say he she or they. Yeah. Like if I have to he said or she but I don't know what to say. You stop and become very intentional sometimes even to the point where you ask the person what would they like to be called. Like. Like if it's something that you actually have to name. If you look at someone and they have a disability do I look at their disability or do I not get their disability. I don't know what to do in a situation.

[00:21:09] Typically what we do because we're so uncomfortable is avoid it. You say they're not a good fit. This isn't going to work. I don't know what to do. Instead of leaning into the fact that I don't know what to do it's going to disrupt what I do about everything is going to everything and that conversation becomes so much more aware. You're aware of so much more intentional so much more in some ways it becomes collaborative because you have to let go of what you assume to be true or what you seem to know because you know you don't know you're so uncomfortable because I don't know how to swim in this water. And that's why I think it becomes like mindfulness it I mean you're in a situation where you are so ultra aware of everything you say and everything you do and that it's really good for us.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:22:01] Yeah. And you know I think it's outrageous. Like all worthwhile naming that it gets not easy and had evidence of Albia like you know a life long journey like learning to be what what's difficult and not running away from that. And also like screwing up and you know finding your way through it you know as just having a confrontation with this partner and he shared with me he goes you know it's not that I don't care about their recent inclusion it's not that I don't want to help women and people of color succeed. And my team is he said but I just feel like every time I try I don't do it right. I get angry at me for not using the right language or you're not seeing things properly. And you know I'm. And people like jumped down my throat for it and then you know and I can see that being Harga. And so I think you know what part of what has happened is we need to sort of give each other a little bit of a benefit of doubt and I certainly don't. I

[00:23:08] swear it's like someone's actually trying to be helpful but it's like if you just use the wrong word.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:23:13] I know I had a telephone number seminar's by Allison Park she's from Fleet consulting and she gives us you know she gave these bullet points on how diversity helps us learn and these are from studies that she's just kind of summarized and she says you know one way that diversity helps us long is it jolts us into cognitive action in ways that homogeny simply does not how much data it does it does it do. And I think that that sense of adequacy right. I mean this is what happens is you feel incompetent when you don't know how to make something successful and it's very interesting because when you're with a white male in an organization that is the assumption is that they're competent that's just the SNP and if they're not they can quickly learn how to be corrupt. Part of it is a cultural advantage that helps them to be able to do it but when they get in in a situation where they are not. Not only is there anxiety around not being able to be competent and there's a sense of conscious incompetence. They also haven't learned to be resourceful enough to reach out to get the help they need to become competent and in some ways that's not that's frowned upon right. That may have because somehow you think you think that I've made it through my smarts and my intelligence without understanding really you've made it through privilege.

[00:24:47] You've always had a hand up but now you need a hand up in a different way from people that you aren't accustomed to getting a hand up from. It's really having the flexibility to be able to want to learn how to be successful in this way and make it work.

[00:25:04] And it's becoming conscious of wanting to be comfortable being and competent until you get cocktease competence.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:15] And that's especially hard for for loners because I now everything was supposed to be perfect.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:25:24] But you know on the other side of that people of color have to do things they don't have a choice but to do it like they they are there they come in unconscious of of of law firm culture. Let's just name more culture is what it is right. It's challenging for anyone to come into law from culture and learn regardless of what your race is as a woman of color to come into law firm culture you know you got to be totally comfortable with failure. You have to be totally comfortable with people mistreating you. People misunderstanding people making assumptions and you get up and magine deal and then go on to be even more successful. I mean so it so it's not this sense like it can't be done or it's so hard or I understand I don't really understand women people of color.

[00:26:12] They have to they had to do it when they walk in the room and they have to fail and they have to recover and then to recover gracefully and they learn how to do it. I mean that's why it's so like if we really had equity in the world black women would be CEOs of so many companies right.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:28] And they are judged more harshly when they fail than their white male counterpart.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:26:34] Yeah which is why I think we talked about earlier this need to build relationships like that so often people of color lead with relationship building. You know everyone fails but when you fail it's deemed so much harsher. So the Chet the challenge the coping mechanism that we do is build relationships so that other people share their credibility when we do. All right. The cushion that fall for us by vouching for understanding mentoring. Right. They share their privilege with us to give us some benefit of the doubt. Yeah and that's a lot of work.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:10] It does. Yeah that's some really.

[00:27:15] It is exhausting.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:27:16] We do it. We do it everyday we do it consciously we do it as a matter. You do it in school you do it when you're in law school you learn how to do this. So I think that's why I think the work I do with women is so important because they have skills just based on who they are. They've had to develop and it had to refine and refine and incorporate it so much they didn't even notice anymore. It's just how they navigate the world that their white male counterparts have never really had to build. They've never really had to be resilient in the same way. And so it's when you begin to recognize that you have skill sets and you will find them in a way that other people just haven't even had to think about dealing with. How do you start employing that in your day to day work. How do you start identifying that is making different and many times making you better. How do you wear that right and how do you start to navigate that instead of continuing to think that if I keep adapting and keep blending in and keep doing all the right things are going to notice all they really notice is that you're different. They don't notice the things that the skills that you want until you tell them about the skills and why they need to notice them and why your difference makes those skills so prevalent and how you operate and how you navigate your career and your work.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:36] What do you think about leadership why weren't taught thinking about diversity efforts.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:28:42] You know until we have leaders that understand that they're missing out of market opportunities right. They're missing client opportunities by not having diversity. Right. They're missing out on innovation by not having diversity and become committed to it be great if they were committed because of social justice perspective. But even if it was a gender justice perspective. Right. And it was a perspective of how do we continue to make our organization thrive.

[00:29:11] Right. And how do we continue to have the skilled workforce that we need. We need to be able to tap people's right. And communities that we don't have because they're not part of our network. Unless leadership really decides to do it it's always going to be an uphill battle and you cannot manage makes me uncomfortable. Diversity without commitment from leadership be it doesn't. You have one offs right. I mean sometimes that's what I find in my work which you know I work with. The only way you know I work with the only woman here the only black woman doing this. The first Asian woman to do this. You know that that's who I work with and really for us to have true diversity leadership has to be committed to it. And they have to be able to make space for incompetence around diversity. Right. Until people learn and they have to be committed to social justice within their organizations so that it's equitable that people are rarely truly acknowledged and promoted based on what it is that they bring to the table. And you can't do that. I mean you can't do that without leadership train.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:24] I feel like this is such a complicated and complex issue but dangerous thoughts about someone is like oh hey like I you know I want to try to be more mindful and aware of these diversity inclusion issues because I am part of privilege and I may not see the world the way that or I may not express the world that other people of color women experience. I'm what. Like what are some things that they can do what are some steps like what does that journey like even look like you know. Because I think sometimes what happens is like you don't making the men kind of feel like well this isn't my problem this isn't my issue. Like it's not like I I can't be the one to look at a panel and say I'm not going to speak on that panel because you don't have any women or you know like you have a diversity problem here because some people might look at them and say well why do you care. Are you a white male like this helps you. Why do you care. I just some thoughts about you know how do you even begin that journey. Yeah I just increasing your own awareness.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:31:32] You have to decide that maybe maybe it does concern me in a just because I'm a white male and I have white male privilege doesn't mean things continue to go on in our organization exactly as they are. We really have the support the knowledge the innovation the work force to continue to really be at the top of our game right. There's a buy now finite number of excellent white males but a lot of white males attorneys are mediocre. Right. And there's a finite number of really excellent white males attorneys. Who else are going to be your excellent attorneys to do the work in your firm. Number one and number two if that concerned you then you have to do a little education. I mean Google is your friend right.

[00:32:23] I mean at this point if you understand diversity equity social justice if you don't know what redlining means if you don't understand the impact of racism the impact of slavery right the impact of immigration. You could just do some google. You have to leave your office. You don't have to go anywhere and talk to anyone. You could do some googling. Right. And if there's something that comes up that makes you really comfortable go google things that don't make a profile and do a little research you're a little learning with this great book that I read it's called white and white like me and I forget Debbie and I can't remember her last name.

[00:32:59] She wrote this book and she it's hardly her discovery of understanding how white she is in America and she didn't grow up thinking that White was a culture.

[00:33:09] She thought that white people were all individuals and that other people had culture and that she grew. It's. It's really a it was a fantastic read.

[00:33:22] First of all she uncovered a lot about American history that cultivate this idea that white people are individual contributors when really they benefited as a group based on policy. Right.

[00:33:35] So she outlines in a way that so relatable but it was also fascinating for me to read how white people think like I read it like I'm not a white person. I don't I don't think like white people I wasn't raised that way and reading her talk about how white people think the world was just such a revelation to me.

[00:33:52] It was set to publish it. And I think of other like of other people read white people read that book. They were told not everyone of course but they would resonate with her point of view and her perspective. So if you want to be able to lean into it then you need to do some work.

[00:34:07] Maybe you don't if someone tells you you know a math problem and you don't understand the math problem but you really want to get better in math what do you do. You do the work until you start to understand the math problem you don't just say oh math doesn't really exist. Oh

[00:34:23] that's that's not a valid point. If enough people say it and it's a point you go figure out why don't I see this. I'm going to figure out the math problem. You know racism social injustice right discrimination bigotry. It existed and exist as much today as it has ever in our country. And so if you don't understand it and you can't see it then you have to be dedicated to learning and you have that. I

[00:34:48] mean to me it's basically the growth mindset just because I don't know it doesn't mean it does. That's my.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:52] Yeah yeah. And also there's no I don't think a singular version of the truth. I mean like I always feel like sometimes people look to you and be like OK like explain this old like Black Lives Matter nothing to me I like explain I like whatever the topic is and they sort of look to you as a black person on the emperors or whatever to like sort of give them this collected answer that will Juni apply to every Asian woman or every black woman. It's like no no no. I asked her for her dislike is this entire style.

[00:35:30] This has been on my mind since. Cornel West has been talking about Banaszak coat's right. And there's this thing going back and forth on whether they agree or they agree. And to me it is the perfect example of assuming that black people are Wachira as a group like they're like white people do not see themselves as a group. They might join a group right. They might decide they want to be democratic they might decide they want to be a Republican liberal liberal. They might decide they want to be religious. They might decide they want to lead and they might decide that they wanted to be part of a group but they do not see themselves as a collective. But they assume everyone outside of what they don't think is a group is a group is their own individual group.

[00:36:19] And then they judge them as a group. And if we could actually talk to people as individuals because every person is on the spectrum right we know that I really learned this from doing work with gender diversity right. And people on the gender spectrum and gender inclusion and gender identity is so individual that you cannot make a blanket statement about gender and what gender means and what you call so one unless you just can't make a blanket statement and you begin to understand it based on how that person views themselves right when that person guides how you view their gender based on how they see themselves not on how you see them. There is no he or she really period right we're all somewhere on that spectrum. It's the same with whiteness. It's the same with blackness. Black people are across a spectrum of how they view being black and their experiences being black. And so this idea that white people also aren't on a group and that and that as individuals within that group they're on a spectrum. If they could begin to see themselves that way they could begin to see other groups that way.

[00:37:38] And I think some you know a big root of why the block is because they think they've been we've all eaten the be who he wanted self-determination and if you work hard enough and strong enough then you can you know make it and do whatever you want to do. And it's a rugged individualists on we we drank off of that bottle since the day we were born and we believe it as Americans that is so absolutely true but it really only applies to white people because white people do not see people of color as individuals.

[00:38:11] They see them as groups I mean this is a generalization but ultimately I think that's what happens.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:20] Yeah and I guess we should all as I put like a footnote and say like to be fair and we truly understand not every white person thinks.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:38:28] Yes I do.

[00:38:30] I like it or not I think but I think more often or not that's the deal that would say that's something that I started to pay really close attention to is what media consuming think just an era of fake news. And you know I was really really surprised like I went back and I looked at all the books that I purchased from Amazon the last couple of years and I looked at like my partners and look that who am I. Follow me on Twitter who are my friends. But on Facebook and just shockingly white when I was like who you really surprised. Just like how many books I read by you know white male. And so I actually had to be like like just a little bit more conscious about you know what am I consume because I think what you consume obviously is going to impact how you view the world. And if you're only viewing the world with this particular lens and it's hard to kind of get all the different perspectives on it. So I've been just making a more conscious effort to really pay attention to you know who who. Who do I engage with on on Twitter and Facebook and as they were saying or is it a group that I feel good about or do I feel like I get different of opinions and perspectives. And do they challenge me on my police. And how do I react when I feel like you know what I noticed what I thought I knew to be true is being challenged.

[00:40:00] Zain I think that's perhaps one place where we can all start to kind of see our own unconscious bias. And you know I absolutely like a way that we can just be more mindful and be more mindful of know when you go out to Happy Hour on Friday and like look around like who we know who are the people that are joining you for happy hour and now you see people that you see week after week after week and if they're all sort of carbon copies of you know what are you really doing to get yourself out of the comfort zone.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:40:31] Yeah. Deseret Attaway she runs the diversity 101 program and I took her last year and one of the challenges was specifically finding someone who believes something totally different from you and just follow them on social media in what they write. Don't comment don't say anything just follow and I've followed a group that was a pro you know pro life group. Not that I don't believe in pro life but it was a very interesting to understand how they are this person.

[00:41:07] I don't see them. But to humanity than it was it was a way for me to be in a position where I just said Yeah. And I couldn't because the commitment was not to respond or not said anything. I wasn't busy formulating my response. I was really in the position of just listening and it was such a great opportunity to find their humanity. Batan doesn't mean that I changed my mind or that I agreed but I was in the position myself to look or I did not even look for it but just tear it over time because I could. I committed to following them for six weeks. I was just going to listen I'm not going to say a word. And you as you listen you begin to find this shred of where who they are right and what they think. It doesn't again mean that you agree.

[00:41:58] But it does sometimes give you the opportunities you make them human.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:05] Yeah. And I think you know that's such a basic human need to be seen to be heard to be understood even if they the other person doesn't agree what you know and I think often we can fall into that trap of thinking well I have to agree or we have to agree. And I don't know that that's true. I think there's just so much power and healing actually that can happen just by being seen and being heard even if you don't agree with the other person.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:42:34] Right. And I think that the challenge is having the resource to always stand the ground to say it. So you know you talk about how you know if we talked about white males and their discomfort leaning in. But then you also have people of color whose exhaustion of always standing out. You know I I do promote for my clients that it's turned out to be different but you have to acknowledge it's exhausting. Great you're always educating you're always explaining it. It's a lot it's a lot of work. So you know I just think on that. On the other we have to just be cognizant of the energy that it takes right to be able to support who we are when we're in an environment that doesn't really understand us. Yeah. Another thought thinking about reading I've been reading a lot lately and I was reading some books by white male authors and there were some basic cultural assumptions that they were making that you know prior to doing this work.

[00:43:36] I would have read it and just assume what they said was true or just assume that that is the way the world is. And so I just want to put out there like a consciousness I have about being Gary. Like I wrote an article beginning in January about Adam Grant's book. His latest book I can't remember it but there's a S.S book that talks about black people and you know why black people are comfortable with settling for less. Basically it was what the read article I wrote it's on Muggeridge Salita we'd like to find it. And I don't know that two years ago I read that paragraph I would have noted the cultural bias that he's putting out in that paragraph. So even when you're a person of color rate it takes a lot of work and consciousness building and intentionality to be able to name the thing that's happened to you so often experience and you know when you're experiencing racism right you know when someone is discriminating against you but to actually name the dynamic at work and to be able to see it and call it out and and just speak to it right to speak to not only is it happening I understand why it's happening take so it's its own educational journey. It's not something that you will find me when I come to learn about it in school. Not going to learn about it through your family experience you get to talk to your friends and then say oh yeah they were definitely racist but you wouldn't be able to explain why.

[00:45:01] And they did talk about what it means and the impact of it and to even let them know that what they've done is not appropriate. And they bring that up because part of when you're in the dynamic when you're an only around people who don't really understand you. Your ability to give voice to bias when it happens in a way that people can't see it and it doesn't necessarily threaten your position. It's a skill that you have to work on consistently. And so I think in reading and educating yourself you know white people yes they need to educate but we also need to be able to educate be educated enough in our own experience to give voice to really what's happening in the.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:44] You know is really hard for me to say like I feel like I'm being excluded.

[00:45:54] You know. And also I feel like it's like no one's ever going to say like well we're not going to select you for this committee because you're black. Rarely is that ever going to happen. So I think for me there's like this feeling of like crazy making because it's like they there's no it's like OK. Like I feel like I'm being treated a certain way because of my race because of my gender. But that. But when you called and try to call him out on it they'll vehemently deny it like they are. And also I think they may truly believe that they're not acting with any bias when in fact they are. And so I guess I haven't really figured out how to have that conversation and I don't think there's any way of having a conversation without I don't know making them feel uncomfortable.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:46:47] I don't know. I don't know. I think it's a skill. But there are some right there are some basics like is it worth having a conversation. So the question isn't can you have the conversation or do you or should you or shouldn't you or even how the first question is Is it worth having that conversation. But how it would best it might. That's right. Is this my company. What am I going to get out of it. So that has to be the basis of what's in it for me to even have that conversation. And then you then you can decide how do I have the conversation if you indeed you want to. And it's worthwhile having a conversation and that's why I mean when I said earlier when you're a person of color the only you really have to be conscious of your energy smart space and how to use it and how you spend it and how you promote yourself or how you call out is when you need to do it because it is exhausting so it has to be worth it. You have to also be in an environment where they're invested in you right. No matter what that might look like even if they don't know how invested they are in you but they've invested in you. They promoted you they worked with you so that you also have a stake in your development and your ability to help them. So a lot of times the guys I've worked with have a certain level of expertise in an area and people are invested in the help and the expertise that they've developed.

[00:48:11] They need them and so it gives them some leverage to come back and say well you need me this is my standard by which I will work with you and the level of respect I need. Is that how I need you to treat me. This is what I need you to understand but you are not doing I cannot continue to happen if you want to continue to work with me. So I think it's not a simple women to go in and defend myself against bias it's why do I have to learn. What do I have to lose. Is this place invested in me. Is it my energy and fighting an organization in a place that needs substandard support that you need to meet. Even if they're not as diverse as they want to be if they are committed to diversity it's going to be a better organization to make that stand to you know an organization that doesn't really care about diversity at all. Does that make sense. I think sometimes we try to make it black and white and it's really art and it's possible it's not. But it has to be worth it. And you have to do some work and then you have to practice good humor troops in a way that helps you move forward. And so what's so interesting in the work that I've done Gina is most people of color actually have the diplomatic way to have those conversations because they've been having them all their lives. They just don't think about being more directly diplomatic.

[00:49:35] But once you get to that what's my truth is it worth that and what do I have to lose and am I afraid or will I stand out or not stand out once you get past that issue that actual having a conversation isn't the hardest part because you've been having those conversations all your life really. I mean think about like my husband is white. So I go to his family's house for holidays.

[00:49:58] I have worked on being diplomatic I haven't worked on that. I am really good at diplomacy.

[00:50:07] That is not that's not us. It's not. I wasn't full or I matter and angry is just is what it is. So to think that I can't transfer that skill that I've honed to in any circumstance that really matters to me. And that's a career defining moment for me and that I want to be on this committee. But you are not allowing any black people on this committee. And how do I raise that. We have the skill to raise it. It's just matter. Is it worth raising it. Do I want to be on that. What does that committee get to do. Is it worth it is it worth it. Be spending my credibility chips on this committee or not. And then how do I build a strategy to be able to say it artfully to the right people. And I think it helps to have someone who can support you a group a community a colleague someone outside of that that can help you. Thank you. How do I raise the question that we just can't raise question. We need diversity in this country. But it is the thing that makes this country great. And we need diversity in organizations that agree that we don't embrace that we fall behind stagnate and it is incumbent on everyone white black brown just matter to embrace how they add to that diversity dialogue.

Jeena Cho: [00:51:36] For people that want to learn more about you or your work. Could we use the best place they can go.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:51:43] So the best way is they can go to leverage2lead.com.

 I also love to I mean I am so passionate about talking to supporting working with helping women of color that you can reach out to me and support and leverage to lead dot com again it's number two. Let it's you know and I'm happy to you know share what I know and support people in whichever way I can be my my goal is to help take the apprehension right out of college manage our careers and look towards anticipation be rooted with who we are so that we have the capacity to navigate uncertainty.

Jeena Cho: [00:52:43] Jennifer thank you so much for being with me today.

Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:52:47] Jeena thank you so much for this opportunity for a fantastic conversation.

Closing: [00:52:58] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on Stephanie Holland to talk about career, home, and personal changes to revolutionize what the modern working lawyer parent looks like.

Stephanie is a labor and employment attorney with Ernest Law Group in Virginia Beach. She practiced law in Washington, DC for 11 years, then left a stable, well-paying job last summer to build a practice from scratch in Virginia, and find a path with a balance between work and home life.

Topics Covered

• Changing legal markets from a large city to a much smaller market.
• Going from a salaried position at a mid-sized firm to an "eat what you kill" arrangement, the business model that comes with that arrangement, and what that looks like in terms of balancing work, social, and parenting life.
• Developing boundaries with work after not having any for years (inspired by having a little one), and realizing you don't want to be like your mentors.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on my personal friend Dr. Rachel Fry. Rachel joins the show to speak on the importance of mental health in a profession that not only can be exhausting on our faculties, but requires us to be of top mental fortitude at all times. Dr. Rachel Fry is a clinical psychologist in Birmingham, Alabama.  She is passionate about helping her clients become more aware and intentional in their daily lives, in an effort to create a better balance and reduce overall stress. Dr. Fry has a lot of experience working with lawyers, in her practice and also with programs she has led and coordinated with law firms and bar associations. 

Topics Covered

• How to discern when is the right time to seek help and when tips to recognizing and bringing personal awareness to your current state.
• Rachel talks about the trends of issues that can affect lawyers, finding happiness in where you are at, and the importance of reframing your thoughts on your career identity.
• We define what it means when we talk about setting boundaries and concrete tools to help draw and outline these boundaries.
• We take a look at self-care as something that you have to work at daily and the importance of seeing it as a mandatory practice and not selfish.

For more information on Dr. Fry, you can find her at: drrachelfry.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:00:06] You may not be helping people in the sense that you thought you would be when you went to law school, but you actually are helping people.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:39] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am so happy to have my dear friend Dr. Rachel Fry, who is a clinical psychologist from Birmingham, Alabama. Rachel started her practice in 2011 because she really wanted to work with adults and adolescents, and she specializes in anxiety, depression, personal growth, self-esteem, and relationship issues. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. It was a few episodes ago, I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice, to help you let go of stress and anxiety. And it's particularly great for this time of year because I know for me it's always a stressful time. And so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should meditate and practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell them you know what, just start with six minutes. Start with just .1 hour. All the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have just one .1 hour for yourself? And so I created a program, it's called Mindful Pause and it's designed for lawyers like you so that you can fit it into your very hectic schedule. So head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com. Or you could also look at the show notes. And with that, here's Rachel Fry. Hi Rachel, it's so nice to have you on the show.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:02:06] Glad to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:09] So I know that you are married to a lawyer, and so you have a special place in your heart and sort of a dedication to working with lawyers. So I want to kind of jump right in and maybe you can just share with us a little bit about how it is that you got interested in working with lawyers.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:02:33] Sure, yes. So like you said, I am married to a lawyer. My husband has been practicing law for about 18 years roughly I guess. 15 years. I’ve kind of seen the really good parts of practicing law, and I've also seen the struggles that he's gone through. With the firm atmosphere and just trying to build clients and billable hours and all those things. But also, I've encountered a couple of things in the community that made me kind of realize there's a little bit more of a need to bring programs and education into law firms and with lawyers, and start conversations that people haven't been having. About some things that come up in terms of stress and anxiety and depression, just kind of managing a law career.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:25] So maybe that's a good place for us to start. When lawyers come to you because they're experiencing stress or anxiety or depression, I think that takes a lot of courage; particularly for the people in the legal profession. We're taught to be sort of invincible, we're supposed to be the savior, we're supposed to sort of have this warrior type of mentality. And so I want to start by asking you, when should a lawyer consider going in and seeing a therapist? How do you know if it's just the blues or maybe you're feeling bad because you've lost a case, versus something more serious?

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:04:11] Sure, I think that's a great question and I think it's something that's very confusing for a lot of people. And what I would say is if you're not able to work through feeling down, for example, if it's not something that stays for a couple of hours and then you're able to kind of move on into a better mood or different state, then that's definitely something to kind of notice. But really, it's kind of if it just stays and it won't go away for days or a week or a couple of weeks you know, and you kind of feel like something's off but I can't pinpoint what it is. And I'll also just add that we're not very good observers of ourselves.

[00:04:58] So it may be that friends are saying you know, you don't seem like yourself this week, or you seem kind of down or even really irritable. You've been kind of difficult to deal with. And so those are kind of things, wording to kind of be aware of in terms of, other people can see us much more clearly than we can often. And just knowing okay, something feels off but I don't really know what it is. But I know that this is not my normal state, and I cannot work out of it.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:28] Yeah. And I know for me, I've been in and out of therapy throughout my, probably starting in law school. And I don't, I'd be curious just to hear your thoughts on this, but I actually found that like I didn't need to feel like I have depression or some sort of an anxiety disorder to go see a therapist. Because I actually found that therapists are just so helpful. And like, working through everyday life stuff. Like something happens at the office and I feel like I let that person sort of step all over me. And I have held feelings and I'll go and talk to the therapist, and you know the therapist would actually help me sort of sort through and give me a better vocabulary or words or maybe a different way of framing things. Something I can actually go back and say to that person and say, "Hey you know I feel like when you did this in front of that other person, you know I felt disrespected, or I felt that you were sort of undermining me." Can you talk a little bit about that? You know like what do therapists actually do?

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:06:37] Right? I think that's a great question, because I think a lot of people aren't really sure what we do, or what we do helps, or if it's worth the time or if it's something that they should even look into. And there are so many mixed messages in the media that it's certainly confusing. So I would say what we do or what I do is you know, someone comes in and I kind of evaluate. All right, what's kind of the initial thing that brought them in? Because there's usually something that's happened recently that's made them go, okay I need to call and make an appointment. And then kind of get a full picture of what does their life look like, what are the stressors in their life, where are they struggling maybe with setting some boundaries, or not seeing there need to be some boundaries? Or where how do they cope with things, what is their stress level but also what is their stress capability?

[00:07:35] You know because we all have different levels of that. Some people have very high levels of stress that they can tolerate and deal with very effectively. Whereas other people have really low stress you know hardiness skills and really need to be a little bit more aware of exactly what is creating stress and how they deal with. So I really kind of get a gauge of where their stress level is for them their personal stress level but then how do they deal with it. How do they interpret things from the outside and bring them and know how they are and do they internalize or do they react behaviorally maybe back to someone inappropriately when they're stressed and trying to figure out OK. What messages are going and the thought processes that they're creating and kind of you know start going in a circular pattern switch.

[00:08:30] And how can we rephrase that set up effective coping strategies and then try to just really eliminate a lot of the extra stress because we all have that regardless of how we feel on a given day. We do have control over cutting out different stress stressors in our lives. Yeah yeah, I'm feeling you there.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:55] Yeah I found just that like often with a therapist will help me do is to just help me reframe the situation. You know like maybe like I lose a sharing and I just don't have it. And that brought her back that nagging voice inside of my head is like Gina you're like the witch lawyer on Earth because you lost that hearing. You should just never practice ever and doubting your entire life. And you know can you just be any more awful.

[00:09:24] And make and then like those type of like internal messaging or voices was actually causing so much unnecessary stress. Right. And then like I would go and say like you know I just feel like the worst lawyer. Like on the face of the planet. And she would be like OK let's step back and look at this like home hearings have you done in your entire life man. No a couple hundred. Like how many of them have you MOS have you like lost more than winning or you know and like I would just like a really simple question. Well, how did the client feel about it? And I would say well the client was actually OK because we knew this was going to be a difficult hearing and we actually had a really low chance of winning but the client was actually grateful that I helped them and I was an advocate for them, and then be like see?! So like is it really true that you're the worst lawyer on the face of the planet. I know that's not true. Yes.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:10:19] It's so helpful because we get into these automatic thoughts and we're in very convincing a base and we can come up with all kinds of evidence that's not really realistic but it's just where we get.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:34] Yeah. Even just like learning about the thinking as it has been. So how fun. It's like I'm doing the back thinking again. And has amazing yes. Yeah. The lawyers come in to see you. Are there sort of typical issues that you find that they're struggling with.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:10:54] Yes so a lot of the things I see with the lawyers particularly are you know just feeling like OK I went to law school because I wanted to help people. And now I feel like I'm stuck in a cycle of billable hours. You know sometimes not enjoying my work. And. And I'm not feeling like I'm helping people. And so it's kind of part of what I think is important as helping reframe in terms of like OK may not be helping people in the sense that you thought you would be. You went to law school but you actually are hoping people in being able to kind of look at different clients in different scenarios and help them see you know. Yes. You are helping this person create a great business or you're helping this person you know really figure out a fine tuning of how they can be more successful how they can have their policies and procedures. And I find too that it's helpful for a lot of lawyers to have work outside of their practice to kind of fill that.

[00:12:05] OK I feel like I am helping people whether that be through pro bono stuff or volunteering or somewhere they're giving back to the community in some way can be really helpful for a lot of that. A lot of people some people some lawyers. They can kind of reframe it that way. OK. So I am fulfilling this that some other people sometimes need to add some other things into their lives their daily lives just to feel like they're feeling that a little bit more.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:38] Yeah I mean I certainly feel like often when I talk to lawyers there's this sort of yearning for wanting to just find more meaning in the work that they do when there is such a disconnect between what you thought that meaning would be when you're in law school or even in the beginning of your law practice. And like when you enter the daily grind of like we get some patent application and you're just like OK like helped me understand or especially when you're working like a large firm where you don't actually get to see the whole picture of the defense or the impact that you're making it's just you're sort of doing like demanding work or silly thoughts about how to find the meaning right where you are. You are finding just happy right where you're at.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:13:22] Well and I think that's you know really looking and like I was saying earlier just to be able to look at some of the clients that you really enjoy working with and trying to reframe know how what am I really doing for this person and how is that impacting me. Then I think you know talking with other people that you work with about how they're finding meaning and what they're doing.

[00:13:50] And even within the firm, you know the kind of assessing OK how is our firm contributing or finding meaning through our work and having kind of focuses or highlights or discussions on that. Also, I think you know moving outside of work we're where d where do people find meaning outside of work. Because I think that's another thing that can kind of come up is you know people are putting themselves to work so much and putting sand much weight on having to mean and like from work. And then if you're not finding meaning at work it's like I'm having a hard time finding any meaning. So really being able to evaluate what or how are work and everything else coming into play. And where are the places? Worker otherwise this person is getting meaningful.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:44] I have to talk to lawyers who are like really unhappy at their job for whatever the reason is and that they have this idea like OK like if I just quit and start a new job then that will sort of tour all of its problems and I know from personal experience that that's not really true. Like it was two that had that happened where it's like I quit and I go somewhere else and like all the same issues would just show up again because somebody like unresolved that sat there if you can just talk about the height you know.

[00:15:16] And I think there's like two different thoughts like that you have to sort of work through the issues like right where you are so it doesn't sort of follow you and I think the same thing happens from some relationships right like you did a guy and he has this particular negative behavior. And then like you know you dump him and you find somebody else and then the same pattern repeats itself like what is that all about. Why does that happen?

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:15:40] Great. Well, I think a lot of this is this is part of what I really enjoy in therapy with individuals is you know it's our personalities and how we interpret and how we. Respond to things. And again. We can't be our best observer with that. You know we're very subjective and can't see all the different pieces that are from different points.

[00:16:09] We have a high-stress personal stress level and they are going into stressful scenarios you know every single day then we've got to figure out a way out of we how do we deal with this. And so it is it is kind of immediacy people are really warriors right. It's not uncommon for them to move. Firms are new you know working with different practice groups and that kind of thing and then again it's kind of the same. And for me taking the time to figure out how do you match up with what your expectations are. And even kind of writing them out thinking about what are my actual expectations because a lot of times don't take the time to sit down and think about what we are literally really expecting anyway. Or right.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:59] Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know something you mentioned earlier in the conversation that sometimes you help lawyers sort of work on their boundaries and I think that's one that I certainly have struggled with. And I don't know if it's more just common from women lawyers but just from my observation, I feel like that's just you know that seems to be more of a struggle for women lawyers. And I wanted to dive in a little bit and talk about it.

[00:17:29] Well first what boundaries are what you know what we mean when we talk about boundaries. And also some of you can offer some concrete tools to the listeners on. You know how to actually begin to draw boundaries because they think there's so much fear and hesitation like I know for me like Al you know it's like someone will offer me and asked me to do something and I just know like that's not the right thing for me. But like I don't want to say no and disappoint that person I have that person be upset at me so I find myself saying yes and then I sort of do it like begrudgingly and then like I hate myself for that. So maybe it just offers some suggestions.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:18:07] Sure. No I will say and when I'm working with clients they laugh because I love boundaries and I get really excited about people making up Feira areas to work with people on though I like to think of boundaries in terms of perceived boundaries and then really like I'm setting this up so in terms of perceived boundaries maybe there are some situations you can't get away from. But we have but you have to work on. How to think about this I'm going to set a mental boundary for myself. This person I know you know and Jane shows up every day and she comes to my office and starts complaining. It makes me feel you know I just kept going through the day and so when Jane comes in I know she's going to do that.

[00:18:56] And I'm just going to special rainbows in my head or I'm in a place of music and I'm going to an end and then the physical like OK I've got to be somewhere in five minutes you know kind of figuring out what are some real actual behavioral things that you can do to set a boundary. It doesn't have to be this awkward you know very aggressive direct approach. It can be very subtle. A lot of times. But knowing again I have certain expectations and know kind of how some situations are going to go. And I know I need to be prepared ahead of time and have some boundaries in my mind options ways to deal with the situation.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:38] That's when they're so certain that I anticipated places where I need to drop boundaries like when like if you work with a toxic co-worker or someone that's just not much healthy for you to be around.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:19:51] Right. Right. And kind of knowing OK this is the scenario and I've just got to figure out some ways and again this is easier to do with someone else. If you go to your desk when your stress levels that have made out a tan and you're having a bad day you just you just need to be somewhere. And I'm depressed mental state to think about it. But I guess to like just thinking about you know the pros and the cons like with what you were saying about you we're asking you to do things and just knowing when you say yes you're really saying no in your head. And you're like no.

[00:20:31] And one thing that's the and I even use this term I saw is like a hundred dollars. The very beginning of the day and I know you know I only use this amount is all I have. And I think 50 percent before ten o'clock and then I find that I have a negative no negative stay balance of about three. Then I've got to look at how much energy do I really have to be able to throw out there today. How do I really want to spend my energy? There are some things I have you know there are always things we have to do that we can't get out of. So that kind of comes and going also. What do I choose to do outside of those things?

[00:21:17] And I think looking at pros and cons like sometimes saying yes to someone that's over you a boss benefits you. Right. And it's like OK I've got to look at this and take a second and say well I don't really want to do this but if I do this then this will really help me with X or no and so that's kind of that's where that accountability kind of comes into. Because it's also easy to get into this cycle where you keep doing that and then you have nothing. And so I'm just kind of being aware. And intentional about OK I'm going to do it this time but next time this comes up I'm not going to do it and I'm going to kind of see how each one of those responses feel for me.

[00:22:05] The other thing I guess I would say about boundaries I think are really good coming up with reasons why we should do things come up with all kinds of awesome scenarios about OK this I'm feeling though about this I'm still saying to myself I need to do this. There's just no vision I just got to do it. And so I think to be aware of your physical response and what your gut is no windows. When you say yes. And you really feel like it's a no. Watch that over time. Yeah. And I think you know what most people find is it's the same scenario is that kind of bring that up and all of that stuff again goes back to that hundred dollars for the day. You know just taking stuff away from you to where you can really thrive and be productive in the areas where you need to be.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:00] Yeah so true. And I think there's this feeling especially for lawyers like that and we should be able to do at all. And we just keep adding more and more and more stuff to our to-do list. And then it's like well I just have to work harder not realizing that and I think I use a similar analogy to your 100 dollars that there are only 4800 40 minutes a day and that it is literally one of our most precious resources. It's so precious in fact that we sell it. And point one-hour increments and so this actually being really intentional about like no I'm not going to get to that point three hours because you know this other way that it's you know that time is actually not just like the Internet. And I don't know why.

[00:23:47] It's like let's just have like really hard times for them and really just like there's like there's so much dysfunction like how we set boundaries and particularly when it comes to like you know how we allocate our time.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:24:01] And I think that's particularly hard for lawyers because the legal profession is so focused on time. So you know I can bill in a bill in six-minute increments then figuring out time and you know the time at the office or you're not billing. I mean it's it's a balance it's hard. I mean me.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:28] Yeah. Oh, you just brought up my favorite topic which is self-care. So it's not about that. When does that mean when you say self-care is that you don't have to go on a vacation to Hawaii for a week or have to go get massages or like what this health care actually.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:24:46] Though I think self-care and I think I'll just I'll just say at the beginning I think a lot of people do look at it like OK I'm just going to kill myself and work and then I'm going to go on this awesome vacation and then that happens you get on the airplane you get there and you're like I'm a little bit relaxed and I'm not as relaxed Zapata would be. And then you'd come back to the fire.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:08] Like your plan was back at the office the entire time while you were on vacation. Right.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:25:14] Right. So it's kind of like is there really a point a way I like to look at self-care is. You know not looking at one three week vacation. You like to solve yourself here needs for the year right. But trying to add pieces of vacation into your daily life. So you know really kind of we're all we're all also different in terms of what makes us recalibrate it and what brings us back to being reenergized.

[00:25:46] And so I think self-care is you know if it's getting a message you know every couple of weeks or once a month or if it's exercise or if it's just going and is sitting by yourself at a park you know with absolutely nothing around you. If it's meeting with a friend really being intentional about setting that up like this is a monthly saying it's on my calendar. Think we're so here is not an optional thing. I don't look at it that way at all. I think it's a necessity. And I think in women I think we as women especially are really bad about. Letting that piece go and taking care of everyone else. Or you know making sure everything else is lined up but then it's like end up in a hurry.

[00:26:36] And stress and no energy and not able to sleep. So I think. That's a huge thing that I work on with my clients is like this is not an optional thing this is like brushing your teeth. I'm thinking this is something you have to do every day to be you. And I'm yeah I totally agree with you there. So.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:00] But isn't being a practicing self-care kind of selfish like you're doing something like free you know and it's like pampering yourself. Many say a client that's like oh no that's selfish I couldn't possibly go to yoga for an hour. And Nick like my kids or neglect work.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:27:25] No it's not selfish. Again I think it's totally it's totally unnecessary it's mandatory. But I think sometimes you know a lot of people feel that way right. And I certainly for a long time and so I realize though that other way wasn't working so well for me. But I think people have to try things out slowly and they. So I would say try yoga class this week instead of picking your kids up right at 3:00. Or whatever it might be and see how you feel about doing that for a couple weeks.

[00:28:01] See seeing what kind of difference you see. A lot of people. Have to have kind of experimental stages. It's like I'm not sure I can buy any of those yet. But I'm willing to take maybe one or two small steps and just see where this leads me. And then realizing the difference in seeing OK I feel calmer when I pick my children up here because I want to do is like I'm actually a better mom I'm a better person because I'm gone and taken care of this whereas before maybe it was just you know agitated or not calm and not feeling good at all. And then and then starting to get frustrated and then starting to beat yourself up over that. Right.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:49] Right. Yeah, I think it's you know particularly for women lawyers for moms like you think it's actually really important to like a model for your kids what it looks like to take really good term view. You know because it's like saying like secure your own oxygen mask before helping others. And if you know if you're tired of running yourself to the ground if you're just consciously running on empty on fumes. I don't think that's like modeling great behavior for your kids and I think you know it's probably not fair and productive to tell your kids to pack self-care when you're not to yourself.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:29:28] All right. Right. And do you think you know we tend to put our kids some towns ahead of ourselves? And that's. Not necessarily a problem. But it can become one if it just continues and there's no self-care out there.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:49] What do you do for childcare. Well.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:29:52] I have a lot of things to call it my toolbox because sometimes I need different things now so I'm a runner. I love to run. That's my only. Really clear bought time to think. You know what I'm doing that day feeling about things where I'm at with different projects and energy levels and that kind of thing. I like to do volunteer work. Just a little thing each week. That's you know an hour and that just brings me kind of reasoners me back and see. Where I am and what's important and very helpful for me.

[00:30:41] I'm a big believer in massages. I probably don't do that as often as I should. And then you know I also have found I need to get better of time by myself whether that be ten minutes. I mean a lot of times I'll just make sure I schedule 10 minutes in between clients. And then just not get on e-mails and not do things like that but either I'll do you know a short little meditation or I'll just sit there and sometimes I'll bring a book and just read you know just something that kind of breaks up the day and what I'm working on intensity or whatever is going on around me.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:25] Yeah. And you know I found that I'd want things that I certainly struggle with and I think it actually gets in the way of practicing self. Tara, it's just my relationship to digital technology.

[00:31:39] I feel like I'm honestly on a device line when I'm not I can actually feel the discomfort of like not being on digital device so they have thoughts or suggestions on like sort of raking yourself out of that habit of like constantly needing to be connected and constantly needing to check again. Yeah. Like I actually find that I don't feel like I sometimes feel sort of hung over because of just how much screen time I've gotten on any given day and it's like wow that's like really not healthy and I know it's not healthy. But then I'm like I can't it's like really hard for me to rate myself that how do I actually do is I just go on a week-long meditation retreat. So then I just don't have access to the digital technology. But aside from that, it feels kind of dramatic. And you like that.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:32:36] Sure. Well, I know for me. I have my spine on Mr. Most of the times and a lot of that is because I'm meeting with people on my phone beeping you know the whole time. But I've also found myself doing outside of work because even though I know things are coming and I can't hear it and there's something mental about not hearing a ding you know every 15 minutes or so I wasn't there. But I can't hear it I can't hear what's going on on it. And that that brings me a lot of calm and I think the other thing is and I think this is something that you mentioned in the past media as well as just putting it in another room recharging.

[00:33:20] You know I'll try that when I get home I'll try to take it upstairs and plug it in. You know stairs are better or something, where it's just not down here, are just as likely to go. The most recent thing I've been trying to and I have been very successful at this but it's still a goal is to get an alarm clock and just leave my phone downstairs and hide. Her. I have another thing that I do without which I suggest is just I love to go to the bookstore and get new books. And I find that if it's a book I'm really excited about that I will that I will not be on my phone and I will be excited about reading the book. That's just kind of go in and it's easy easier when I have something else. I'm really looking forward to doing more relaxing read that.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:14] I love all the gestures and. You know the other topic that I want to have with lawyers and money is when we can chat a little mix a sort of like a hot topic. When you work with lawyers and they think there's a sense for lawyers because we trade our time for money there's this constant feeling of well I just have to make. I just have to work more and therefore earn more. And then there is also this extra final yardstick that we measure ourselves against. You know it's like oh my co-worker and this much money worries that particular client and brought this much revenue. And so there's this sense of like keeping up with the Joneses now thoughts about it. I don't know how to have a healthy relationship with money.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:35:05] And this is a challenging one because you know a lot of lawyers I mean have gone to law school and have loans. So that's kind of hanging over and then-then you get a job at a firm and you look at you look at the income you think wow this is awesome. Right. Then kind of go down the road a little bit further and you realize well I'm spending a lot of those. So I'm getting used to this which is not a bad thing. But when it becomes so linked to the billable hour I think it's really hard to separate. And I think for a lot of lawyers it's hard to imagine doing any other type of job. Not not because they don't want to because they get used to the money and the lifestyle and you know knowing OK you know it may not make as much as I'm making right now and I'm not sure what my life looks like without making as much money without being able to have you know to be able to buy and afford these things.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:08] And I think kind of try to. It's not like I've certainly not had this experience of like I'm just sort of buying stuff. It's like the self-soothing measure because it's like my work so hard to earn this money than if I'm going to do you know a little too much like I'm shopping therapy because I don't deserve it. You know I deserve to buy this really expensive thing. But then I also don't get any like much today out of buying it like there is now sort of like momentary pleasure in buying that thing. But then afterward they sort of have like cancer you know.

[00:36:47] And I didn't really have like a very clear understanding of like what actually really matters to me and am I being intentional about how I spend my money. I think kind of going back to what we're talking about in terms of like managing our time prioritizing those things that are important to us. If the same thing applies too to how we spend our money and.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:37:09] Lo and I think obviously having nice things and you know nice things by you know have nice things is really awesome. Right. Like it's nice to be able to go in and buy something really nice even wanting one side I guess is what I would say it is what's driving that. Right. And so when your fun and I mean especially with our culture and society I mean we all fall into the swirl humans.

[00:37:37] But when you find that you know every time I have a really bad day at work I end up at a mall or on Amazon or you know it's kind of become just that coping strategy right. And it's very. And that will not ever get to the root of the problem or the issue. So just I mean some are waves of all or whatever else it might be. Right. So when you find yourself in the pattern its words like I can't break free of this and I feel OK I feel better for a minute but then I feel just as low as I did before. Then it's time to kind of assess and figure out what's up to read about.

[00:38:27] Yeah a lot of people think of therapy and they think oh I don't really want to go into all that work and it's still going to the plow of everything that happened in my childhood and everything happened and that does sound like golfing and not. And I just want to say that's not how it was. And I think I mean I realize that I'm a psychologist. I think therapy is awesome. And just for me just be able to see little the small changes people can make to realize how strong they are or where they can grow that it's that it's not always Leggott stuff being brought up are actually very positive. And for people to be able to realize things need to shift and change my life. They don't have to take me back to the joys of my childhood always when they were still small things I can do make big changes.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:25] Yeah. And I know I really just got so many tools that I didn't before going to therapy. That's really one of the benefits of it and so that when I am in a challenging way difficult or you know a situation like I can go into my tour bus and say OK which of these tools I need rather than just having one which is a hammer which is a super effective and efficient healthcare like every other job where the hammer is perfectly appropriate but not always.

[00:39:57] So yeah I mean I really would encourage you to know to everyone that soliciting like I know no I almost feel like everyone should just like don't because it's pretty like mine because I'm feeling depressed or just because with me some life skills. And I found it to be so helpful and in even more kind of going into like the childhood stuff.

[00:40:23] I mean to spend a lot of figuring stuff out and go oh like why is it that I just often have this sensation of like never having enough money. And like I always fear that I'm going to go home last think that's completely irrational like my rational mind knows that that is not true. And then when I actually you know kind of like I dug into it a little bit you know kind of poked around and I realized oh that's the message that I got from when I was a child that like I grew up really poor and that there was this sensation that like we were on the verge of homelessness.

[00:40:56] And even though that condition no longer exists that messaging is still there and then I was like oh OK well that messaging is no longer help all that and that like little 6-year-old self inside of me is still going wait for no. Like we might go homeless if you buy that sweater. Right. Just like Suze that part of myself think I know it's OK like you know like things are OK now and I've got that. So yeah like just learning those like self-soothing techniques which have been so helpful just in managing stress and anxiety but also like living my best self you know like really stepping into like all of my possibilities and not like living in this constant state of fear and anxiety and worry.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:41:43] Right and also normalizing. OK. That's kind of what led and graded that framework. That doesn't mean that that has to mean pieces that are always there but that doesn’t mean that forever.

Jeena Cho: [00:41:58] Yeah exactly. Yeah. And I said just love talking to you because you know like I'll be like hey look I have this weird thing happening in my life and you will just be like I know that totally comments and. I had to even just from that perspective like normalizing whatever you're experiencing because I know for so many lawyers are just feeling like Oh my gosh like I'm the only one that feels complete. And in effect, you know in December and I can't Bill and I just yawn and blue. And I think just having someone that like gets to work with a lot of lawyers and go oh no. Like I actually just saw eight patients last week that have told me actually think that you're going through. It's like I'm not the only one and really normalizing that experience. Yeah.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:42:43] And it's a powerful thing because I think I think a lot of us can get in our mindset of like no one else is going through that. There is there are always other people going through.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:55] Wow. So I feel like this feels like a good place it just kind of pause. And before I ask you my final question if people want to just learn more about you and your work what are some of the best ways to connect with you or just learn more about you.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:43:15] Sure. Well, my website shows how the dot com. And then I'm always open to getting e-mails or setting up calls to people others topics that come up are questions. So please feel free and all my information is on my Web site.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:36] So happy to do for anyone though and suggests and you have such a beautiful website. I was just telling you before the show that you like I love you I'm upset it has like such like soothing colors and images and I think it just reflects perfectly who you are so I dearly love it. And so my final question is always does the name of this podcast is called a resilient lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:44:15] I think it means really learning more about yourself and trying to figure out what-what really makes you passionate. Really what creates stress for you. And how can you build those muscles you know are those parts of you to be the best you can be in. And to be feeling like you're giving where you want to go. But overall we can't all do that every single day obviously. But overall in your overall life, you have your very thing going on. Being able to get back up those strong to get back up have the tools to get back up and bounce back.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:02] I always love attachment and now we've been trying to make this interview happen for some time. I'm so happy to have you and to chat with you again. Thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Rachel Fry: [00:45:16] Thank you so much for having me.

Closing: [00:45:22] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Donna Branca on to talk about meditation and mindfulness in the legal profession.

After 13 years spent at Blank Rome as their Director of Talent Management, Donna Branca left to further develop her leadership and coaching skills. Given her extensive experience in coaching and leadership, as well as her institutional knowledge of the firm, Donna returned to Blank Rome four and a half later as the Director of Strategic Leadership. She works to help the firm leadership, partners, and associates be the best they can be.

Topics Covered

1. Her introduction to mindfulness; how it became an instrumental part of her healing through a turbulent period, and how she utilizes it in her training at the firm.
2. Acute stress (fight or flight) vs. chronic stress, and why it can be important to distinguish for mental well-being.
3. The practice of meditation and the importance of seeing it as a journey rather than something to be conquered.
4. The impact of mindfulness on one's overall success, and mindfulness in the legal profession.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Donna Branca: [00:00:00] We can either be in the river and getting banged around by the rocks and the currents and the everything, and if we can get to the side and climb out we might be beaten up and wet, but we can look at the river. To me, that's what we're doing when we're practicing. It's all still there, but we're seeing it with some clarity.

Intro: [00:00:25] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:47] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Donna Blanca. She has spent 13 years at Blank Rome as their Director of Talent Development. Donna left to further develop her leadership and coaching skills. Given her extensive experience in coaching and leadership, as well as her institutional knowledge of the firm, Donna returned to Blank Rome four and a half years later as the Director of Strategic Leadership. She works to help firm leaders, partners, and associates be the best that they can be.

[00:01:21] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode please go check it out. I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice to work with loneliness, which I wrote about on the ABA Journal this month. So often even though we can work with others in our firm, we can have that sense of isolation and loneliness. And I found that having a regular meditation and mindfulness practice helps me to be more aware. You can learn more about Mindful Pause and the six-minute program over at JeenaCho.com, or you can also check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Donna. Donna welcome to the show.

Donna Branca: [00:02:00] Thank you. Thank you Jeena, appreciate it.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:03] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Donna Branca: [00:02:09] Well you gave a nice introduction there. It's my pleasure to be back at the firm, having spent a great part of my career here. But I'm now in a different function and at Blank Rome building a coaching culture. We do that both to help from a leadership perspective as well as a business development perspective. So in my space, it's pretty much on the leadership side. So I work with senior leaders, but I also work with any number of our partners and associates, and I do training and coaching and one-on-one coaching, some group coaching, and then a smattering of some other things that involve leadership. So it's been great to be back, and it just seems like a good fit.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:59] I know that you have a personal mindfulness practice, and I'm curious to hear how you got into practicing mindfulness and what that practice looks like for you now?

Donna Branca: [00:04:19] Yeah, I've been meditating now for about 12 years. And I actually was at the firm, part one at Blank Rome; and I had some things going on, and it's actually also how I was introduced to coaching. I retained a coach for myself and we were working through some career goals, that sort of thing. And one thing led to the other and the coach actually asked me if I knew anything about mindfulness, she had just taken a course at the University of Pennsylvania. So I had zero introduction to mindfulness until then. And I was a little skeptical, but I'm curious by nature so I researched it and ultimately signed up for it, in part because I thought it might help the lawyers that I worked with. So I registered for that course, and somewhat ironically instead of starting that course the same day at the University of Pennsylvania, I woke up at the University of Pennsylvania Hospital with a diagnosis of ovarian cancer.

[00:05:06] So I didn't actually get there for that course, I remember in my fog at the time saying to my husband I think you better wheel me over to that mindfulness class because I think I'm going to need it. And frankly, it became a big part of my healing and it became a big part of my life since that time. So that's pretty much how I got introduced to it.

[00:05:22] I should add that I did get back to the program about a year later, and it was remarkably powerful. I found myself saying at the end of the program, my teacher Michael Baime went around the room to say what did you get from this eight-week program? And I went first, having no idea what would come out of my mouth. And what I found myself saying was that it was remarkable how I felt like I had shifted my perspective and been able to pull myself away from the thought that were yanking me around, and that frankly if I found that my diagnosis had gotten worse and that I was even looking at dying that I found a tool that would help me do that. And that was a big "aha";

I didn't realize that that was going to come out of my mouth. But it's very true, that's how profound an effect it had on me. And about nine or ten months later I did a program for them with just cancer patients, because the Abramson Cancer Center was thinking of picking up the funding for it. And that's where it really locked in for me, going through a program with people who had not been introduced to mindfulness before and were at.. we talk about ruminating about the past and worrying about the future. There's no time more than when you have a life-threatening diagnosis. And watching what it meant to these people, it really locked it into me, as to how important this can be at any point in your life. But like I said, that locked it in for me; from the standpoint of how important it was to me, and to some extent a passion and to be able to introduce other people to it when they're ready.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:57] Can you say more about how mindfulness practice helped you to recover? Not necessarily recover, but how it helped you through that journey through having cancer? Because obviously there's just so much uncertainty and fear, and all of the other emotions that I would imagine would come along with having that diagnosis and the treatment. But how did it help you in the day-to-day of your illness?

Donna Branca: [00:07:29] So by the time I got to it, I was post-chemo. I really wish I had a mindfulness practice before I got to that point, but where it helped me (since I was post-chemo) was in that limbo stage that you go into; where you're not treating, you're not going through an active regimen of something, and you're just waiting. And where your mind can go with that can be either dark, or you can pull yourself out of it and have it not be so dark. And be grateful for the fact that you did get the medical care that you had and whatnot, and you just vacillate back and forth. And it's as if your mind decides where it's going to go on a given day, and what the mindfulness allowed me to do was really understand how to zoom out and look at the situation and choose my response.

And I try to do, the University of Pennsylvania and this program that I do host two retreats a year, I try to do at least one. And it was at a retreat where I found what I was doing, when I was able to actually look at my thoughts almost as a focus of my meditation. Which I hesitate to say to some people, because it doesn't always resonate. But it was a moment of clarity that has stuck with me. I would say that.. I'm sure you've seen this news of the kids that were in the cave in Thailand, and thinking about that really resonates with me. And to answer your question around how it helped me, I mean when you think about what they were up against and sitting in this horribly dark cave where you can't see your hand in front of your face literally, being together and learning how to get mindful in order to get through that is just astounding.

[00:09:43] But to be honest Jeena, I feel and have always felt that this is not something new that we're trying to learn; it's actually something we're trying to re-learn. You know when we look at babies and we look at children, they're much more mindful than we are.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:04] Right, they're always in the present moment.

Donna Branca: [00:10:06] Right. And at some point, we pull away from that. So it's kind of telling that these young men and children were able to get there somewhat quickly. And I don't know, I haven't talked to them obviously but that's what I'm making up about it; that that we are able to tap into what my experience has been around mindfulness, what I've watched plenty of other people's experience (I'm sure to some extent yours) has been around mindfulness. The diagnosis, the stress, the fear of what it means; I still get emotional seven years later. What it means to your family. Like right now, I cannot just pull myself out of it and get positive about it, but literally look at the thought and make a choice as to what road I'll go down.

[00:11:13] So really, I have such gratitude towards this work. I actually have a lot of gratitude towards the work you do, that's how important I think this is. So I hope I answered your question, about how it helped me get through that. And frankly it's still a journey, once you have a diagnosis like that. I mean I'm very grateful, I have a fairly good bill of health. The doctor says something else is more likely to kill me than my ovarian cancer, but when you face death that way and your own mortality, it shifts thing quite a bit. So I count on my practice to help me in all sorts of things.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:01] I remember when I went through the 8 week mindfulness MBSR class for the first time, I was so struck by the range of human experience that were present in the room. There were first year (I took it at Stanford) undergrad Stanford kids and they're like, oh I don't know what I should do when I grow up and I just feel so anxious all the time. To people that were caregivers to loved ones that were dying, we also had people that had terminal illnesses. It was just the whole range, and I think that class is so impactful because it pulls you out of your own experience and you start to see human suffering happens to everyone. It just gave me such an appreciation and that ability to be a little bit softer. I think as lawyers we're so used to striving and forcing our way through things, and it makes you think no. Sometimes I guess there's a place for it, but oftentimes all it does is just aggravate the situation. To back up a little bit, can you talk a little bit about the difference between acute stress and chronic stress?

Donna Branca: [00:13:27] Absolutely, and I just actually did a program yesterday for our summer associates. So if we think about the predator jumping out in front of us ready to eat us, our stress response is involuntary; it just kicks in. And our essential systems, our non-essential systems shut down. Take it back to high school, the whole stress response, right? We know this, but it serves to remind ourselves in this context. Where if we think of a predator jumping out and we hit fight or flight, and that trigger puts our system into this involuntary. Where our heart beats faster and our lungs beat faster in order for us to either fight this thing or get rid of it. At the same time, our non-essential systems shut down. So we don't need our digestion, we don't need reproduction, we don't need our immune system.

We lose our ability to creatively problem-solve, because we don't have time for that in this situation. So all of that can be, once the predator is either gone or you've killed it, it automatically brings us back to homeostasis. So the relaxation response kicks in, but in chronic stress that's not happening. So if we're keeping ourselves in this constant state of chronic stress, then it does impact those non-essential systems that shut down. It does impacts digestion and reproduction and our immune system and our ability to creatively problem solve. So what we want to do there is to insert a relaxation response, in order to bring us back to homeostasis. And the relaxation response is both voluntary and involuntary, so we can actually do that.

And to me, that's what mindfulness practice does. Being able to calm yourself and bring in the relaxation response, to me helps if you actually have a practice. So you are conditioned to do that, as opposed to trying to remember to settle and breathe at a time where you want to insert the relaxation response. Because when we are at chronic stress, it's hard to remember it. So that's why I think a regular practice helps me do that, and I've seen this work with people; it certainly has worked in my life. To insert something that brings me back to recovery, right? So chronic stress is really just that stress with the absence of recovery, and we can actually impact that.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:14] Right. And so often we can keep that chronic stress going by re-remembering some triggering event. So you may have a hearing and the hearing didn't go your way, and rather than let it go and return your body back to homeostasis you just keep repeating the hearing over and over and over again in your head. You keep repeating what the judge said, what the opposing counsel said, and think about how unfair it was. You build up a whole narrative in your own mind, and then that just keeps your body in that elevated stress level.

Donna Branca: [00:16:50] Absolutely. And we talk about how this trigger that might be a predator, this trigger can be a partner standing at your door or a law professor making a demand; it can also be an internal thought. This inner voice that we have can be a real trigger, like you just said. So we're just re-triggering and re-triggering and re-triggering when we are ruminating about that. So I couldn't agree more, I couldn't agree more.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:23] Yeah, and so often our own mind is our worst enemy. I remember when I first started practicing mindfulness, I would sit to meditate (and I'd actually be curious to hear your thoughts on this) because that's what they tell you to do. Like okay, you want to let go of chronic stress and find these and find relaxations. So I would be sitting there and I'd be meditating, and I found it to be anything but relaxing. And I would just sit there the whole time (10 minutes) and I would have to force myself through it. And I was convinced that it was actually making me more anxious, that I couldn't find relaxation and ease.

[00:18:03] So, have you noticed that in your own practice? And what do you say to the beginning meditators that's like no, when I sit down to meditate I actually notice more anxiety and more stress?

Donna Branca: [00:18:21] Oh absolutely. I think it's a bit of a misnomer and it's unfortunate that people come into this believing that they can clear their minds, or that that's the goal. And to some extent, the opposite is true. That might be a lovely byproduct at some point of your practice, but that's not the goal. And what I tell people and what resonates with me, is what you're really doing is you're being completely with what is. And that includes your thoughts. And if you can sit and be with them, without adding more thought and just looking at them, knowing that they exist; the trick is not to add more thought.

[00:19:02] And what I tell people is whatever you've decided the focus of your meditation, whether it's breathing, whether it's parts of the body, whether it's something else, that the practice is in when you've seen your mind go off. And then you say okay, not judgmentally, and you bring it back. It's in the bringing it back that's the bicep curl; it's not trying to clear your mind, it's noticing where it went and being a choice to bring it back. And it's making that choice that is building the muscle that's going to allow us to make that choice when we're really in the midst of something else.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:45] Yeah, that's so true.

Donna Branca: [00:19:46] There was one metaphor that my teacher used that resonated for me, which was: we can either be in the river and getting banged around by the rocks and the currents and the everything, and if we can get to the side and climb out.. we might be beaten up and wet, but we can look at the river. To me that's what we're doing when we're practicing. It's all still there, but we're seeing it with some clarity and we're just not getting re-attached to it. And to me it's just this slight separation. But at the end of the meditation, you can meditate for ten minutes and get up and say oh my gosh, I only remember one breathe. But to me, that's still.. they say (and I believe this) your meditation practice can't suck, if you just set the intention and you sit and you set the intention.

[00:20:54] If you only get three conscious breaths, its still doing the work it needs to do. And not every practice is going to be like that, most aren't going to be like. But you have to be with the ones that are in order to really gain some confidence that that's true.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:15] Yeah I always find it to be so interesting, often I'll have lawyers come up to me after a talk and they'll say, "You know I tried meditation once, and it just didn't work." And I'll say, well what does that mean it didn't work? And they'll literally say something like, well I downloaded one of those apps and I sat down and I did a meditation, and it just wasn't calming; I found it to be very stressful. And it's like, well if you buy a gym membership and you went once and afterward you're sore and you didn't have the perfect body (whatever you were expecting from going to the gym), you wouldn't say well that didn't work. It's a journey, it's a practice; it's a life-long practice.

Donna Branca: [00:21:57] It is. And I think when we got started, we did do the eight-week program and the homework that we were supposed to do; the 45 minutes of meditation every day. And the science is now telling us that that's not necessary, and that it's more important to be consistent every day, rather than long sits now and then. And I don't know if you agree with that, but that's what I understand to be the case. But I do feel like I needed that; I needed that to jumpstart what I saw to be so true by the end of the eight weeks.

I think that had I not done that, I would have been one of those people that I said yeah, I did the Headspace thing once and it didn't work. So that's for me. I also meet people that that's not true for; I meet people who are very self-taught. But again, it's usually someone who can be with how yucky it can be sometimes to sit, and still do it every day and set the intention. Whether it's five minutes, whether its 20 minutes, but I have met plenty of people who are self-taught that way. But it is a bit of a discipline, in my mind.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:30] Yeah, and it's such an interesting practice because it's almost like just showing up and doing the work, showing up and meditating; that's all there is to it. And letting go of how good it was, how bad it was, how often your thoughts drifted off. And I think that's so hard especially for lawyers, because we are such perfectionists and we want to do things perfectly, and we want to do things correctly. And I think it's very distressing when you sit down and you have some expectation about how it should go, and you very quickly learn your mind is like a tornado. It's really distressing, and I think it's just sitting in the midst of that distress and saying, well I'm just going to be with that. And it took me a long time, to get out of that judging mode. And I think having an eight-week class, where I would go back every week and say, you know I'm still sucking at this. And the teacher would smile and say, "Yeah? Keep doing it.”

[00:24:31] And then after a while it wasn't so distressing that I was sucking at it, it was just like okay I'm just going to do it and not worry about whether it's good or bad. And that's such an important life lesson too, because so often we do something and we have no control over the outcome. You go and argue a hearing, and you don't get to control whether you win or lose. So really the only thing that you can put your effort into is showing up and doing the thing, you know? And I think that's what meditation teaches you, to just show up and do the thing and let go of that attachment to having a certain outcome.

Donna Branca: [00:25:12] Absolutely, absolutely. And I do, as far as teaching this to lawyers or working with lawyers or how this might be a tool for lawyers in particular, I feel really, really committed to that, as I know you are. With law students, I'll just give you a quick story.. I was asked by a law school to do a presentation to a group of students and professors. There was a professor who was trying to get a mindfulness curriculum in the school, and she had asked me to come. And she had told me that she was really trying to draw professors to it, because that's the buy-in she really needed.

And so I said I'd be happy to bring my husband (who is a judge) because although not a meditator, he had gone to a meditation retreat for me. Because I had been asked to do lots of work at that point with various firms and whatnot, and I asked him to go to this retreat for lawyers, judges, and law professors. And he was really resistant, but I really wanted to send in a skeptic with zero experience and allow it to inform my work. Because there is such a high level of skepticism among lawyers; it's what makes you so good at what you do. It makes you so valuable to your clients, to get them out of their own way. But when he came back, he was absolutely certain that it would have a huge impact on lawyers.

[00:26:59] And from his literal perspective from the bench, watching lawyers who are so often either thinking about the next thing they're going to say or what just happened and how they can strategize, as opposed to listening to the witness and the nuances, or being really present with the jurors. He went back and it was somewhat of an experimental laboratory for him to watch this happen, and he was absolutely convinced. So he came to this program with me, as well as another judge who was self-taught, who heads up the drug court. And he uses it both for himself as well as to introduce it to the people who are in his drug court. He's a huge advocate of it, but he also believes that law students can often self-medicate and otherwise, to try to get through the stress. And he really asked them to look at this as a potential tool. And it was really powerful, the professors did come. As I thought they might, having a couple judges show up as opposed to just me. And it was really impactful, really impactful.

[00:28:29] And I'm proud and happy to say that the professor did get her curriculum approved. And then subsequently, I was asked to be a guest speaker at one of her classes. And it was remarkable to see the curriculum and how rich it is. My piece was on mindful leadership, which for law students to be hearing this and learning it and experiencing it first-hand, really powerful. And it was so clear that this was such an important class for these students and such growth in it, that I believe every law school should have a curriculum of mindfulness. You know, the resilience that it takes to be a lawyer, the resilience that takes to be in big law or small law.

It's every day you need to be resilient. You practice, you work, and you're at odds with someone all day. And the resilience that a lawyer needs is really critical. And I believe this is such an important tool to allowing them to look at things from a growth perspective; if they can shift and remove themselves from the turmoil of what's going on in a current moment and have a mindful response makes a huge difference.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:59] Yeah. I Had a conversation with a judge, and he has a deep mindfulness practice. And one thing he told me that I thought was so heartwarming was it helps him to remember and to see (he also does criminal law) that every defendant that comes through his court is an individual, and to see that person as a human being with the full scope of human experiences. And that he's more than the sum of the crime that he committed, which led him to be in this courtroom. And I just thought, what if every lawyer can bring that level of thoughtfulness to everything that they do? Because I think we can get into this way in which we try to do things in bulk, because we're so overwhelmed and we lose that humanity.

Donna Branca: [00:30:59] So true. When we talk about criminal law, it makes me think about the mindfulness programs that are going on in prisons and in police departments. And how that ability to learn how to insert a pause before you react, both as a criminal or as a cop.. the world would be a bit different, if we could just insert that pause. It would have a huge impact. So there's a lot of good things.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:40] Sometimes when I talk to lawyers and talk about mindfulness, they'll say well that all sounds good, but I'm afraid that it's going to make me less effective; I'm going to lose my edge, or it's going to make me go soft. And I sort of like this aggression that I have all the time. And I think they're afraid of getting in touch with their own emotions, getting in touch with their own experience. And even just that pausing, I think is really frightening for a lot of people. Even just the idea of sitting quietly with your own mind. I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on that.

Donna Branca: [00:32:23] I have, I do. It comes up in coaching, and it also is true of not wanting to come into coaching necessarily. Because they don't want to get in touch with this. I don't know if you'd call me "type A", but I am best when I am working like crazy. And so I'm more of that acute stress person, or maybe used to be chronic and now has learned acute, and it makes me so much sharper. And I have talked to many partners and associates and judges who have heard that, who have a practice but have heard that, and say they know that they are a better lawyer and are less stressed. They know when they are in a conference room with adversaries, that they can just look at how getting worked up is having people not be clear and not be as focused.

So the lawyers that I talk to who have a practice absolutely say it makes them a better lawyer, and there is nothing about it that has made them lose their edge; it has sharpened their edges. And when we talk about the fight or flight, if our ability to creatively problem solve actually shuts down when we're in that state, then we aren't; then we aren't at our best and we are not focused. And we are not as resilient or as mindful or as present. There's not a lawyer that I know that got soft as a result of a mindfulness practice, there just isn't.

[00:34:23] Again, it's tapping into this sixth sense that we forgot we had. Right? Like there's this backpack that is full of tools on our back that we've been carrying around we forgot, that's how I see it. And I really do see it as making people sharper, better lawyers, and better leaders. I do, I do hear that. I think that goes along with the higher level of skepticism. You know Larry Richard's work, where he found that lawyers do have a higher level of skepticism and we've talked about that. So I think there's a resistance, but I would encourage people to try it.

It gives more space, not less space. We also talk about they don't have the time or what I talk about is that concept of managing your energy versus managing your time; that if you learn how to manage your energy, you will get more time. That seems to resonate with people. And a mindfulness practice (or whatever practice is important to you) that is going to help you sharpen your ax is really about managing your energy and refining how you utilize your energy, rather than being a prisoner to time.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:00] And both of those things, time and energy, have their limits. In terms of how much energy and how much time you can exert on any given day.

Donna Branca: [00:36:14] I'd agree but for the fact that energy is renewable, time is not. So what do we need to do to renew our energy? Because you're right, it's limited. If we keep our foot on the gas pedal we'll run out of gas. So what do we need to do to renew it? Sleep helps, mindfulness helps, running helps, exercise helps.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:46] It's all the basics: eating well, getting enough sleep, getting some exercise, having connections with others. All of those things I think we all know to do, but somehow it's not a priority or it ends up on the bottom of our to-do list and then it doesn't get done.

[00:37:11] Donna, one question for you before we wrap things up. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Donna Branca: [00:37:24] It means more than just bouncing back and being able to bounce back from adversity, but bouncing back better. It means when these things happen (and they do often happen, on a daily basis), things don't go the way you need them to go, you went into a courtroom and the judge is in a mood or something doesn't go your way, and it's going to happen every day. And how can you grow from that, what have you learned from that, and how does that make you a better lawyer tomorrow? I'd say that’s what being a resilient lawyer means to me. When we look at the lawyers that we admire most, there is resilience there; they have learned a whole lot along the way.

[00:38:27] It reminds me, if I can just throw in this last joke, where someone asks this CEO what made him so successful and he said really good decisions. And when he was asked what enabled him to make really good decisions, he said experience. And then he was asked, how do you get that experience? He said, bad decisions. So to me, that's resilience. Right? Learning from all of the stuff that goes wrong, and figuring out what that might look like and how that might have changed us and shifted things going forward. That's a resilient lawyer.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:14] Thank you so much for being with me today Donna, I really appreciate it.

Donna Branca: [00:39:18] Oh it is such a pleasure, it really is. And thank you for your work.

Closing: [00:39:25] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode I am excited to have Joan Williams on to talk about gender and race, and how they play out in the workplace through her new "Bias at Work" survey.

Joan is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades.

Topics Covered

• She defines implicit bias and examples of the four basic ways they can show up at work: Prove It Again, Tightrope, Maternal Wall, and Tug of War.
• Why WorkLife Law created the "Bias at Work" survey, and it's goal.
• How the types of subtle bias that are captured in the "Bias at Work" survey affect lawyers.
• What law firms and legal organizations can do to stop these subtle biases from affecting their employees.

Learn more about Joan at:
Bias Interrupters | Small Steps, Big Change

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Joan Williams: [00:00:00] Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it, it implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle. And I think actually that's quite misleading, I think a lot of it is pretty blatant. And I frankly don't think it's that important, whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not.

Intro: [00:00:27] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:47] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I have Joan Williams. She is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades. Joan welcome to the show, I'm so happy to have you.

Joan Williams: [00:01:19] I'm delighted to be here, thanks for inviting me.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:22] So can you give us a quick 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do?

Joan Williams: [00:01:29] I've been a law professor for a very long time, and I've been studying gender for a very long time. I started out studying work-family issues, and now my chief focus is on gender and race in the workplace, and how they play out in subtle ways. Which is why we're excited about our new "Bias at Work" survey that allows people to go in and answer a few questions, and get a quick readout of what kind of bias climate they are reporting at work.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:00] And what have you been finding, in terms of bias at work so far?

Joan Williams: [00:02:05] Well, the "Bias at Work" survey is part of a larger survey that we've used on that, to assess the bias climate first in engineering, and more recently in the legal profession. I co-wrote a study for the ABA Commission on Women in the Minority Corporate Counsel Association, where we gave the larger survey to a national sample of lawyers, and we're just about to come out with the results. Bottom line is, there's a lot of implicit bias going around.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] To start off, I think that term implicit bias gets kind of tossed around a lot. What do you mean when you say implicit bias?

Joan Williams: [00:02:50] There is really just a lot of gender and racial bias, in addition to bias based on other personal characteristics. Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it. It implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle, and I think actually that's quite misleading. I think a lot of it is pretty blatant, and I frankly don't think it's that important whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not. I always say, if you're clueless whose fault is that?

Jeena Cho: [00:03:32] What are some examples of how these implicit biases show up at work?

Joan Williams: [00:03:38] Well there are four basic types. The first, I call "prove it again." And it's that some people find they need to prove themselves more so than their colleagues. And it's definitely triggered by race, it's triggered by gender, it's triggered by class origin in professions like the legal profession. People who were born in non-elite backgrounds have to prove themselves more than people from elite families. It's also triggered by disability, so that's proved again. The second is quite different, it's called "the tightrope." It stems from research on women that shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted from women. So women often have to choose between being liked but not respected, or respected but not liked. And when they're assertive they're called aggressive, or worse. Anger is less accepted, self-promotion is less accepted from women than from men. And our research with things like the "Bias at Work" survey shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted not only by gender, but also by race. So it affects people of color, men as well as women. For example, anger is less likely to be accepted in a professional workplace when it comes from an African-American.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Yeah.

Joan Williams: [00:05:21] And the third pattern of bias is actually the strongest, it's called "the maternal wall"; its gender bias triggered by motherhood. It affects dads too, if they play an active role in family care. And then the final one is called "the tug of war," and that's when gender or racial bias turns into a conflict within those groups.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:46] You know, these issues just seem so big. And so often people aren't aware of it, or you may not be aware that you're treating someone that's a woman or a person of color differently than you do someone who's a white male or looks like you. So how do we begin to become aware of it, and change these behaviors?

Joan Williams: [00:06:14] Well actually people are in luck because they can go to our website, which is www.biasinterrupters.org, and we have a full set of open-sourced toolkits for interrupting bias based on a bias in performance evaluations, in hiring, in meetings, and in assignments. And just going to the website and using the tools for individuals will help give you a very abrupt (and we hope efficient) education on how these patterns of bias commonly play out in the legal profession, and how it interrupt it.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:01] I love that, I love that there's a toolkit and people can just go there and look at it. I often feel like, especially being a woman of color and in the legal profession, I always felt like there was so much focus on changing me, or changing us and our behavior. I remember going to these workshops on how to handle interruptions, or how to handle when someone else claims your idea as their own. So how much of this work needs to be done by the people that these behavior's impact, so women and people of color, versus white males?

Joan Williams: [00:07:49] Yeah. And I think it's important to point out that for some of these patterns, specifically proven again, white men from non-elite backgrounds may be having the same kinds of problems that women and people of color are having.

[00:08:06] I mean we've been working on these problems and supposedly deeply caring about diversity in the legal profession for 20 or 30 years, and almost nothing has happened. When I gave my first program on women in the legal profession in 1997, 17% of a law firm's partners were women. Do you know what it is today, for equity partners?

Jeena Cho: [00:08:33] Oh I look at the data, yeah.

Joan Williams: [00:08:35] It's, oh my gosh. So what we've been doing hasn't been working, and that's chiefly because the chief tools have been diversity initiatives or women's initiatives. And as you point out, that's totally great if the problem is with the women and people of color, but typically that's not the problem. The problem is that these forms of bias have been constantly transmitted through an organization's basic business systems, which is why the other set of toolkits on that Bias Interrupters web page are tools for organizations, tweaks they can make to their hiring or performance evaluations, systems that will in an evidence-based, metrics-driven way, interrupt this constant transmission of bias through basic business systems and workplace interactions.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:33] So for the listeners that are out there that are like, yeah maybe I have some biases and I want to figure out a way to interrupt it, can you give one or two concrete examples or suggestions on how they can change their behavior?

Joan Williams: [00:09:54] I actually wrote a whole book on that with my daughter Rachel Dempsey, it's called "What Works for Women at Work." And what I did for that book is just went around to the savviest women I could find, recited the common patterns of gender bias, and said any of that sound familiar? 96% said yes. And what's worked for you? Then that's what works for women at work. And I'll give you some examples. You mentioned the stolen idea, when you mention an idea and someone else gets credit for it. Well the next time that happens, you can do several different things. One is you can just say really mildly or with humor, "So glad you liked that idea, here's the next step." Or you can work behind the scenes if, that happens persistently, and set up a little posse of people who either echo each other's ideas, making it clear who the idea came from. Or when someone steals an idea, they can say, "I'm so glad you like Jenna's idea. I think you've added something important Jim, here's the next step." So what we have and what we gathered in what works for women at work were a lot of low-risk strategies for interrupting bias (on your own or on behalf of others) without spending too much political capital.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:32] Yeah, I love that suggestion. What can law firms or legal organizations do to stop these subtle or implicit biases from affecting their employees?

Joan Williams: [00:11:44] Well lucky them, because within the month or very early next month will be released a new report that we did for the ABA Commission on Women and Minority Corporate Counsel Association. It's called "You Can't Stop What You Can't See," and it has not only the results of our national survey on racial and gender bias in the legal profession, but also a full set of open source toolkits specifically designed for law firm lawyers and in-house counsel. So they're going to have to toolkits very specifically designed for those environments that will allow them to find out if they have bias through the workplace experiences survey, and then interrupt the biases if they do.

I'll give you an example on the issue of assignments, because that's been less talked about. In "What Works for Women at Work," my daughter Rachel Dempsey coined the term "the office housework," and that women do a lot more of the office housework than men. The undervalued work, the literal housework like planning parties, and administrative work like finding a time or place to meet. So one of the toolkits that we have is a toolkit that provides a protocol for an individual manager or department or a whole organization, to find out if there is a fair allocation of the glamour work on one hand, and the office housework on the other. And then to establish a very specific protocol for remedying both problems. If you have nothing but women doing the office housework, there's a protocol for spreading that around more evenly. And if you have nothing but a small group of white men getting the glamour work, there's a step-by-step protocol for remedying that problem.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] Yeah, I love that. And I think that's something that happens all the time in offices. I remember being given instructions like, don't sit next to the food because you don't want to be responsible for serving the food, and all of these rules that you to keep in your head for just trying to navigate the law firm environment, so you don't end up as the office housewife.

Joan Williams: [00:14:19] Yeah, and the bottom line is that takes up brain space, and it has the potential of undercutting women's credibility. Asian American women are under more pressure than any other group of women to behave in feminine ways, and face often more pushback if they don't. And the bottom line is that that shouldn't be your job, to constantly be heading off bias at the pass. That is really the organization's job, to put in systems that seamlessly interrupt those common patterns of bias.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:58] Sometimes when I have these conversations I get pushback, and the pushback is why should we treat the women or the people of color special? Why do they get their own retreat, for example, at a law firm? Why do they get their own woman lawyer meetings or groups? And that's somehow biased against the white males. I'm curious what your response is to that?

Joan Williams: [00:15:29] We are already treating the women and people of color differently. The nationwide study of engineers found that if you ask American engineers if they feel like they have to prove themselves more than their colleagues, it's true that 1/3 of white men say yes, but 2/3's of women and 2/3's of people of color say yes. So those women's and diversity initiatives are designed, at best, to help women and people of color navigate problems that they face, in that case twice as often as white men.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:15] The other place where I often notice is very glaringly, because I spend so much time traveling around the country and speaking, is so many legal conferences. I can probably randomly pick any legal conference (unless it's being put on by a woman's organization or an Asian Bar Association or the Minority Bar Association) and there is not a whole lot of diversity in the pool of the speakers. And often when I point this out to the organizers and say, "Hey you have 80 speakers and you literally had six women and one person of color, me. That's a problem." They will come back and say something like, well we care about diversity but we're not going to sacrifice quality to have diversity, and we just picked the most qualified speaker. What's your response to that?

Joan Williams: [00:17:16] You know, it kind of depends on the field. Some fields are very small and they have a certain demography. If that's true, then you should be thinking about what fields are represented at your conference. But most fields in the law are large and diverse, and probably what's happening is.. I remember going into the Dean when I was at Harvard Law School and asking why there was one woman on the faculty as a tenured woman. And he batted his eyelashes at me, bless his heart, and said there's none qualified. And I said, in the whole country? And he said no. So that is a failure of imagination and it's a failure of social networks. Because how do people put together conferences? They're putting them together under time pressure, they go through their networks, and the single strongest determinant of who is in your network is who's similar to you. So they need to either diversify their network, that would be a good idea, or make sure that the planning committee represents diversified networks by adding other people to the planning committee whose networks will help them tap the full pool of talent.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:52] Yeah, and also the other thing I often notice is the planning committee will be let's say 10 people, 9 of them will be white males and they'll have one woman or one person of color, and they'll literally tell me, "Well she was responsible for finding us diverse speakers, and she didn't." And I always feel like no, it can't be up to one person within an organization or within a conference planning committee to fix your diversity problem. And I think so often that happens, like in law firms we have people that are Director of Diversity and Inclusion, and that person gets scapegoated if you fail on the diversity and inclusion front.

Joan Williams: [00:19:34] That's not called caring about diversity, that's called not caring about diversity. One of the problems and reasons there's been so little progress is that again, the organizational response to the failure to retain and advance women and people of color often has been to hire somebody as a Diversity and Inclusion manager, and give them a budget for programming. Well the reason that women and people of color are falling out of the pipeline is because they have to prove themselves more than the white guys from elite backgrounds, a narrower range of behavior is accepted from the women and people of color, they're under a lot of pressure to play back office roles, they're not given equal access to the glamour work. For women, motherhood is often used as an excuse to sideline women, and the ideal worker still is designed around a man married to a homemaker. Those are not problems that you can solve by hiring a D&I manager and giving her a budget. That response is again showing that you don't care as an organization.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:59] Hmm. You just made this point a little while ago, but we do tend to hang out and associate with people that are like us; I think that's sort of a human nature. So if you look around your network and your circle of friends and colleagues and you notice, they all look like me, they went to the same law school. If you're a white male, it's like oh yeah so many people that I work with are white males and they all went to the same law school that I went to. Thoughts or suggestions on how to expand your network? Even just opening your mind to different ideas. I think it's sometimes harder and uncomfortable to try to reach out and make connections. You know, how to be with that discomfort and start to make those positive changes in your life?

Joan Williams: [00:21:58] I think it's particularly hard for women, I think it's particularly hard for Asian Americans. It's hard for women because the default model of friendship differs by gender. For women, the default model of friendship is to be a good friend you're very open, you have a deep emotional connection, you share troubles. The default model of friendships among the bros is that you have a broad network of relatively shallow ties, and the fact that you're going to help each other's careers is kind of a given. Whereas, if a woman tries to, for example, get business from a friend, it may be seen as, "Oh my gosh I thought we were talking about emotional issues and having an emotional connection." And that context, particularly for women in law firms who really have to take steps towards rainmaking, that is where the action is in almost all law firms.

You need to establish what's called an entrepreneurial network. You need to understand that another genuine way of interacting with people, male as well as female, is to engage in what the guys do. Which is kind of a ritual exchange of favors, like I'll do you this professional good turn and you'll do me this professional good turn. That's not a bad model of friendship, it's just a different default model of friendship. So that's one of the things that women really have to understand. For Asian Americans, this can be particularly challenging because so many, at least from immigrant families, have been taught that the path to success is to keep your head down and just do awesome work.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:58] Mmm hmm.

Joan Williams: [00:23:59] And of course doing awesome work is a precondition, but it's not the whole schmiel. Because if you just keep your head down and do awesome work, the risk is that people are going to be very happy for you to work for clients so they can go out, get more clients, get the origination credit, and hand the work over to you, who now will have to even work harder because you're not getting any origination credit. I remember that my institute, the Center for WorkLife Law, was doing an analysis of performance evaluations of a large and major law firm. And again and again and again and again, it was so blatant; the Asian Americans were being slated into back-office roles. And believe me, you may be doing important work, but if you're not doing the work that's valued at your organization, you're not going to be promoted and compensated in the top bronze.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:12] Joan, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your time and your wisdom with us. Thank you so much.

Joan Williams: [00:25:20] Thanks for the invitation, Jeena.

Closing: [00:25:27] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Jared Correia on to talk about looking at our law firms from the business aspect and how to grow them without driving ourselves insane.

Jared Correia is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. A former practicing attorney, Jared has been advising lawyers and law firms for over a decade. He is a regular presenter at local, regional and national events, and he regularly contributes to legal publications, including his columns for Attorney at Work and Lawyerist. Jared is also the host of The Legal Toolkit podcast on Legal Talk Network.

Topics Covered

• How law school doesn't teach us to be entrepreneurial as lawyers, and how change management is hard on law firms. Jared talks on how he specifically helps lawyers to overcome that.
• How law firm managers can better focus on the business aspect when there is a constant overwhelm of new technology and financial burdens.
• The positive effects of appropriate delegation on the small law firm owner, from differentiating yourself from others and content marketing. He also talks on general time management tips.
• As a business owner, including the owner of a small law firm, you need to be able to bounce back from failure. Jared talks on how to manage that and what that looks like.
• What he does in his personal life to maintain his sanity as a business owner, and what we should adopt to help better protect ourselves from burnout.

Find out more on Jared at:
Red Cave Legal
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Jared Correia: [00:00:01] And I think a lot of what lawyers get stuck on their headspace is okay, I've got to get clients and I've got to crank out the substitive work, and I don't have time for anything else. But business management techniques are just like anything else, you just have to take the time to learn them and figure out what you're doing.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm delighted to have Jared Correia, he is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. He is a former practicing attorney, and Jared has been advising lawyers and law firms for over a decade. He is a regular presenter at local, regional, and national events, and he regularly contributes to legal publications, including his column for Attorney at Work and Lawyerist. Jared is also the host of The Legal Toolkit podcast on Legal Talk Network.

[00:01:14] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation to help you work with loneliness. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes, .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself?

[00:01:45] Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more or check out the show notes. And with that, here's Jared. Jared, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Jared Correia: [00:02:01] Hey, thanks. I'm very excited to be here. And yes, make time for mindfulness everybody. So true.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:07] Also, I wanted to have Jared on the show because not only is he my coach, but my husband (who is also my law partner) also uses him. So I wanted to have you on to just share your wisdom and your knowledge with the listeners. But before we get started, why don't we just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do?

Jared Correia: [00:02:28] Yeah it's a family affair, right? So I have a business management consultant for law firms for the last ten years. I had previously worked for the State of Massachusetts, and currently I have a private firm where I help lawyers with technology, financial management, and marketing decisions, and I also have several bar associations I work with on a contract basis, and have been more regularly. And for more information you can check out my website, which is redcavelegal.com. Was that 30 seconds? I hope so.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:07] Great. So to get started, I think there's such a disconnect between what they teach you in law school and the actual practice of law, and you talk a lot about having an entrepreneurial mindset. Tell us what you mean by that, and why it is that lawyers aren't naturally entrepreneurial.

Jared Correia: [00:03:26] I should say that law school is getting better about teaching lawyers about business management, but it's still not great. And I think lawyers are just not great at business management because they were never taught it. Like if you get an MBA, you learn how to run a business. But when you're in law school, generally speaking the whole curriculum is focused on substitive legal work, and that's great to turn you into a lawyer who can practice law, but that's not great at turning you into a lawyer who can practice business. And it's a totally different mindset, to run a business than it is to work for somebody. You've got to be resilient, there's a lot of highs and lows, you got to be on top of things constantly. There's not a day where you can take an afternoon off and go on Amazon and shop for stuff; you've always got to be gunning for the next client. And you have to potentially manage other people too, which is difficult for many folks to do. And sometimes you have to do that coming right out of law school, or without a whole lot of experience doing it, and that's a really difficult part of it. The places I see lawyers falling on their faces who could be managing businesses better but are not, are the ones who don't want to take the time to learn. business management techniques. And also, taking the time to learn how to manage people. Especially if you're going to grow a law firm and the idea is to be bigger than a solo shop at one point, you really need to figure out how to leverage staff. And that's a hard thing to do.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:47] Yeah. How does one go about learning any of that stuff?

Jared Correia: [00:04:53] Well of course, you want to talk to somebody who is a really good business consultant. But outside of that, a lot of it's trial and error honestly and figuring out as you go, and trying to do as much research as possible. I think knowledge is power with a lot of this stuff, and there's information available online. So if have time to sit down and watch YouTube videos or read articles about how other people have done it, that's helpful. If you can find a mentor who's an attorney who has the kind of practice that you want to have, then that's another way to figure these things out. Sit down and talk to somebody, or go into their office for a day and see how they manage their practice.

Sit in on a staff meeting and see how that's run, ask people to show you who have successful law firms how they run the back end of their office. Do they use a case management system, do they use tasks and workflows, how do they delegate work? All that stuff can be really helpful and can be learned, it just takes some time. And I think a lot of what lawyers get stuck on in their headspace is okay I've got to get clients and I've got to crank out the substitive work, and I don't have time for anything else. But business management techniques are just like anything else, you just have to take the time to learn them and figure out what you're doing. And a lot of lawyers don't want to put in a time, they just want to be told what to do.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:05] Right. Well and law school is really good at training you to do that, just to be a follower and do what they tell you to do. And then you graduate and it's like wait, there's no more script. No one's going to give me a syllabus and a homework assignment.

Jared Correia: [00:06:18] Yeah exactly; there's no script, no syllabus. That's a good way to look at it. You have to learn by doing, and law schools have not traditionally been great at teaching people that.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:27] Yeah and also to go along with that, there is just so many frequent changes and upheavals that is inherent in starting your own business. So thoughts about how you can cope with that or just become more resilient?

Jared Correia: [00:06:42] Yeah and I'm sure this is a topic you talk about regularly and well, but that's the thing. If you've got a job, you know you're being paid every two weeks. If you have a business, it's not that way. And what law firms, especially starting law firms should think about, is that even very successful law firms have lines of credit they can borrow against. Because realistically, you could make $20 one month and $30,000 the next month. So you've got to figure out how you're going to manage those ebbs and flows of practice, and a lot of that is money-related. But the problem is, you can't let those money issues (and they're not real issues, just how a business is run) overwhelm your thinking and make bad decisions based on that. You need to be even-keeled; you need to always look at the long view. And the problem is, a lot of attorneys don't project for this type of stuff.

[00:07:35] So if you're setting up a practice and you're doing revenue projections for example, which a lot of attorneys don't do and which are relatively straight-forward to put together, you'll have a better sense of what your practice is going to make on a monthly basis, on an annual basis. And realizing that it's not going to be the same every year, every month, but you're going to consistently hit the marks hopefully, help. Because it gives you some clue as to what you're doing. You've kind of got goals, whereas otherwise you're just swimming against the tide. And that's tough to do. So I think the main issue for law firms, especially those starting out, but even law firms that have been around for a while, is beating back this idea that your doors are going to close because you have a bad month.

Everybody's had a bad month, and the likelihood is that you're going to have a good month following it up. And I hear this from entrepreneurs all the time and it's true because I have my own business as well - just when you think your business is crashing and burning, you'll get a couple client e-mails or you'll get a couple of phone calls for referrals. It almost always happens that way. And if you can weather the storm of the first one to three years, you're far more likely to be successful and your percentages of closing down that business go way, way down after that. So really it's just trying to be even-keeled, sticking to a plan, and working that plan over the course of years. And it's not going to happen overnight, which I think a lot of people think it might.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:57] Right. And also I think as you become more experienced, you start to have less of those panicked moments. Like I remember when we first started LC Law Group, the phone wouldn't ring one day and I would be like, oh my gosh we're never going to get a new client, we're going to go homeless, we'll have to shut down our business, we'll have to go back to the old law firm. And now it's like, ok there are just slower months during the year. Like winter is always a bad time for filing for bankruptcy, no one wants to go through the holidays filing for bankruptcy you know?

Jared Correia: [00:09:34] And the sooner you can get away from my thinking like, I'm going to be living under a bridge next month, the better.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:40] Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also where that mindfulness practice really comes in handy, because you start to see the errors of your own thinking and you can learn to manage all of those internal anxieties.

Jared Correia: [00:09:53] Oh absolutely. If you can stay away from the self-sabotaging behavior, it helps tremendously. And if you can focus reasonably on what the reality of the situation is, not the negativity you're throwing down on it, the better. And I agree, that mindfulness is a good way to center yourself. As you know very well, probably better than anyone.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:14] So technology.. You know, I feel like I am constantly bombarded by all of these different technology companies. And they're like, I can help you do this thing! And part of me is like, well but I don't really need that thing, what do I really need that thing for? And it just feels so overwhelming, even something like finding a practice management software. There are so many of them, and I'm sort of like do we really need one? So thoughts about how to manage the overwhelm of the available technologies out there, and how to go about smartly selecting the ones you're actually going to use, that are appropriate for your practice?

Jared Correia: [00:10:49] You're certainly not alone. Most of the people I talk to, one of their big issues is how do I choose technology? And the case management example is one that is particularly apropos, because there's probably 250-300 case management software’s out there, it's insane. There are some industry leaders of course, but there are just a lot of them. And the other thing too is that this is not the end, this is just the beginning. Legal technology is still a pretty nascent field, and there are some genres of technology that legal hasn't even really explored yet. Like there are very few legal CRM's, or customer relationship management software’s out there. I suspect there will be more.

[00:11:31] So what you're seeing is attorneys who already feel overwhelmed, with more entries into this field every day. So you really need to take your time to manage the technology and choices you make for your law firm. And this is another thing that relates to okay how do you manage your business? Well, you have to take the time to do it. A lot of attorneys will Google technology for five minutes and they're like that looks like a good product, I'll buy that. And then it's a flaming disaster, and three months later they're like this sucks and all of technology sucks, so I'm going to go back to the Stone Age and I'm going to be faxing everything. I have those conversations quite a bit as well.

[00:12:09] So I think what you want to do is not purchase the technology until you need it. And in terms of needing it, is a pain-point related to it? So let's talk about a case management software, for example. I tell people, if you want to keep your overhead low just keep a spreadsheet of your clients. Until it becomes painful for you to keep the spreadsheet for your clients. What does that mean? You find you're getting behind on administrative stuff, you find you are having trouble doing conflict checks. You find you're having trouble finding things related to client information. Once those things start to happen, you're going to get in trouble if you don't have a higher level of technology you can use. So at that point, it's good to get into a case management software.

[00:12:53] And then I'd look at three to five options and extensively vet them, including about technology and data security. Because that's an important topic for lawyers as well. So that's how I would approach it, when you feel like you are overwhelmed about a task, look for technology to solve for that task. And then if technology is not the only solution you need to use, then look for people to help you. And then you're talking about contractors or employees who can also use the technology you're now going to apply for your office generally. And the advantages like, you've got so many cloud-based software’s now. And from now until 10 years ago, you would never be able to get into a system or a case management software for less than $5,000 up front. Now you can get into a system like that for $10 a month. So the pain points can be a little less painful, because you can get into the software more quickly because the costs are flattened and predictable.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:54] I think the next big thing (aside from office management) that lawyers struggle with is marketing. And you know, I struggle with marketing and have this feeling like if I'm really good at what I do, do I really need marketing? What do you say to that?

Jared Correia: [00:14:12] Yes that's a perfect evolution, because that's a mistake a lot of lawyers make, The lawyers are always like, I went to law school and I learned to be a good lawyer who manages substitive legal work, and that should be enough, right? Like everybody should come to me. But that's not the case, because when you look at states that have high legal populations, like I'm in one in Massachusetts and you're in another California, the problem is okay you want to find a good bankruptcy attorney? Well throw a stone, there are 20. So you have to differentiate yourself from everybody else. So how do you do that? I think one of the ways you do that is you consistently talk about what you do well. And it doesn't necessarily have to be salesy, it can be very natural. Think about what your client's main issues are. So maybe you know that your clients generally come to you with three or four major problems. So write about those problems or speak about those problems. And there are so many publication methods out there now that it's really easy to engage this type of content marketing. Which is essentially advertising yourself, but also offering some free advice that is not giving away the house. What do I wear to court, how do I file bankruptcy, what type of bankruptcy should I file, that type of thing. You've got to be thinking about, what long-tail search terms are people using online to answer these questions? And you want to write for those.

[00:15:33] That could be the title of your blog post or your video. You need to repurpose as well. So that can be the title of a blog post and then you turn it into a video also. Now you get two pieces of content on two different channels, that if someone explores that topic online they're going to be able to find something that links to you and you're going to be more relevant than other people who not writing about those things. And this is different than doing a standard paperclip campaign, where people are mostly focusing on shorter phrases or single words. This is a way to get after people who ask specific questions and they're searching in places that are not necessarily Google or Bing, not that anyone really searches on Bing. But if they're on Facebook or LinkedIn, you can publish this stuff broadly. And it's free to do, it just takes a lot of sweat equity. So I guess I jumped in and answered the question about how to do this, but I think step one is you talk, speak, and write about things that are related to your practice and problems that your clients have, and then you publish those items as widely as possible.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:37] Well that gets me to this question of time management, because we have so many things that we have to do. I mean we obviously have to service our clients and do that very well, and then we also have to market and we have to be an entrepreneur and run our business. And especially when it comes to marketing. I was just reading some blog post and it was like, "Why Every Lawyer Should be on Instagram," and I was like no, I just don't think every lawyer needs to be on Instagram. So I have these conversations all the time, like how much social media should lawyers actually engage in? Because all of these things have a cost to them, right? Whether it's money or time. So thoughts how to prioritize your time so that you make space for these things that you need to do, but also figuring out what it is that you should be focusing your time on. Do you have thoughts about how to structure your day or general time management tips?

Jared Correia: [00:17:37] Just between you and me, some lawyers should definitely not be on Instagram. But that's the thing, there are so many channels now out there. There are social media channels for business people, there are social media channels that you use for family stuff which sometimes bleeds into business. There are these video platforms, there are these photo platforms. It's overwhelming. So if I go into a law firm for example, and tell a lawyer to do these 15 things, they're going to do exactly zero of those things. So I like to focus on 1 to 3 campaigns at one time. I found in my practice and personally in the work I do and the attorneys I work with, is that it's not overwhelming as long as you keep it to one to three things per quarter.

[00:18:22] So for example, what we were just talking about. So for this quarter you want to do a blog post a week, and then you want to post it to Twitter, and then you want to revise your LinkedIn profile. Alright, that's what you're doing for the next three months. That's it, don't get distracted. Don't chase another shiny object and just do those things, and then after that quarter is done see if those are still viable things that you should do, or if you want to move on. And if you want to implement those things moving forward and say you dropped one or two, pick up another two things to do for the next quarter. But I think proceeding like that is really helpful, because you don't get overwhelmed. And in terms of social media as an example, yeah there are like 50 different channels you could use. So I tell attorneys, make one your primary channel and then populate information by others. And there are these management tools for social media, for example. And I'll just tell you how I do it.

[00:19:17] So I'm very active on Twitter, have been for years. Wrote the ABA book on that subject, so that's my primary channel on social media. So I have a publication schedule for Twitter, I repurpose all my stuff through there, and then if I'm posting things on other systems like LinkedIn or Google Plus, I don't have an Instagram account yet I'm probably one of those people who shouldn't have an Instagram account. You just repurpose from the main one, and you say oh that's a cool article let me repost that to my LinkedIn. And do it that way, and then it does feel less overwhelming. And then if you've got a major publishing engine, and again Twitter is mine, I publish more frequently to that than to others. And I think that's fine as well. So pick a main channel, set up subsidiary channels, and derive the content that you're placing on your subsidiary of channels for your main channels. And I think that helps too, in terms of time-management.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:08] Yeah, and there are lots of different programs out there that will cross-post things for you. Like I use Buffer, that's what I use. And it'll post things on different schedules to all the different platforms, and I find that that just makes it a lot easier rather than to log in to LinkedIn and post it there, and then go over to Facebook and post it there.

Jared Correia: [00:20:30] Scheduling is great. And people always tell me, I'm talking to you right now and you just posted something online. And I'm like yeah, that's because I did it like three days ago. And people are still staggered by that, and I'm sure you run into the same thing. It's like, you too can schedule posts online. It's great.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:46] Yes, it is great. Or they'll be like, I thought you were on a retreat? I was on a retreat. It happens magically, automatically.

Jared Correia: [00:20:57] My time management could be better, because I'm clicking through e-mails as I'm recording your podcast and you're about to murder me. So I need to work on that a little. But that's one reason why I don't have a smartphone, because when I'm out meeting with people or I'm hanging out with my kids at the playground or whatever, I don't want to be distracted all the time. So one of the ways I combat that is I don't give myself access to those things, at certain points.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:32] Well I think in every business, as well as just in general in life, there will be obstacles and challenges and failures. How do you deal with that?

Jared Correia: [00:21:44] I try to look at the process more than the result. And I know that sounds crazy, I know most people are totally results-focused. If I have a process in place and something doesn't work out exactly the way I want it to, I'm comfortable with that because I felt like I took the time to do it right. To be able to think of things in that way, you have a notion that things not going to go perfectly every time and you're not going to have a 100% hit rate in business; it's just never going to happen. And that's okay. It's okay to step back and reassess things or not move forward on something because it wasn't working out. If you look at professional baseball, you get 3 hits out of 10 at bat you're a success. And I think for a lot of small businesses it's the same way. Once you find out what your bread and butter is, that's great and then you can experiment outside of that. But not every experiment you take is going to be successful. So I think focus on the process, focus on being thoughtful about what you're doing, and then don't just throw that failure into a bucket and be done with it. Analyze it and see what didn't work, and you never know. You could rehash it later on at a different time, tweak what you were doing a little bit, and it might be successful. Maybe you were a little bit ahead of the curve, maybe you a little bit behind the curve.

[00:23:03] But you don't know unless you take the time to analyze it. And that's fine, but it doesn't mean you stop taking swings. And eventually, if you've got the process right I think you're going to hit on results more often than not. But do take the time to analyze why something failed or why something is successful, and you can use it next time. And also, you never know. I'm very bad (or good, depending on your outlook) about taking every call or e-mail that comes into me. I always talk to somebody or respond to somebody, because you never know what's going to happen. So I think there are potentially opportunities within things that you would label failures, that might work out in the long run. Maybe you try something different, but you end up meeting a great referral source that you never would have if you had not done something like that.

[00:23:47] I think it also tracks back to business owners being comfortable taking chances. Creating a business is a real risk, especially in this economy. And just because you have one successful endeavor or one successful niche practice that's working for you doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to take risks anymore. You don't want to push the risk out of your profile, because it might cause your practice to stagnate. And that's the last thing you want.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:15] Right, yeah. And also, I'm obviously like a lot of people, risk adverse and I don't like to have failure. But I took a class on design thinking, and it really changed how I view failure. Because in design thinking, you never think about failures as like, oh this didn't work. It's always an opportunity for learning, and also an opportunity to gather data. So you take that data and you repurpose and you iterate, and come up with the next prototype. So I think if you can look at it in terms of like, I'm gathering more data and I'm just running an experiment rather than I'm a failure as a human being. Because I think that's what often happens, we internalize these "failures". So if you can adjust your thinking in terms of, oh I failed at this, now I suck at this and I'm a terrible lawyer. Like no, I ran an experiment, it didn't work. Let me gather some data so I can figure out what I can do differently next time.

Jared Correia: [00:25:16] And that's a great way to look at it. Yeah, the design thinking idea is great. I also use software terminology when I talk about this, sometimes I'll say this is my beta or this is my alpha, or this is a skunkworks project that I'm working on that nobody really knows about that I'm testing it out. And I think if you can think of it that way, that's great because software companies, design companies, they don't think of failure in the same way that business owners do, traditional business owners. And then you're completely right about this notion that people feel like, I failed at "X" part of my business or "X" experiment within my business, so I'm a terrible person and I failed my family. That happens, and the quicker you can get over that, the more you get back into running your business effectively. You can't let that drag you down for a day or an hour, because you've lost time moving on to the next thing.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:07] Yeah. What are your thoughts on helping people maintain their sanity as business owners?

Jared Correia: [00:26:15] Good question, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I think you need an outlet. Mindfulness is a great outlet for example, and all the things associated with that, like yoga. If I could do yoga, that would be great. But I've almost died doing yoga several times, so maybe that's not what I do. Exercise good though. If you can get on a regular exercise schedule, that's helpful. If not on a daily basis, at least regularly with a system and a plan. That helps you get stress out. If you don't have a way to get your stress out, you're going to carry that over into the work, you're going to carry that over to your family, and you're not going to be particularly effective.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:54] Yeah, I think putting yourself first and caring about your own well-being is really, really important for not only being a good lawyer, but a good business owner, good family member. All of the things you do in life.

Jared Correia: [00:27:08] I also try to differentiate between work and hobbies. I think people don't necessarily do that, especially lawyers. People are always looking to gain new revenue, and I think lawyers are always thinking what's the next thing I can do that can make me money? But I think it's okay sometimes to do something that doesn't make you money, just because you enjoy doing it. I don't know if it's scrimshaw, I don't know if it's woodworking, I don't know if it's writing the great American novel. But whatever it is, take some time out to do it.

[00:27:36] And the last thing I'll say on this is, I often tell people the problem with a lot of lawyers too is they work seven days a week and they never give themselves a break. So once a week, take a day off. A full day and don't do work from midnight to midnight, and then get back after it and catch your breath. Oftentimes attorneys and small business owners don't give themselves a chance to do that.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:58] Yeah, totally. And that's a recipe for chronic stress and anxiety and burnout.

[00:28:03] Well before I ask you my final question, for the people that want to learn more about you and your work, what are some of the best places for them to do that?

Jared Correia: [00:28:15] Oh yeah. Let me say two places: I said my website before, and that's a great place to go. I have a lot of information there, it tells you everything I do. RedCaveLegal.com. And as I said, I'm also very active on Twitter. Most of the stuff I do, I'll post on there. And that's at Twitter.com/JaredCorreia. Just my name, Jared Correia. Yes, I have three vowels at the end of my name, my kids and my wife complain about it constantly. Such is my life.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:53] And all of that information will be in the show notes. And my final question to you is this: the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Jared Correia: [00:29:01] Oh, that's a really good question. I think a resilient lawyer is somebody who can strike out on their own, build a practice from scratch as a solo attorney; those are the lawyers I have a lot of respect for. And you can maintain that over the course of years and not be overwhelmed by viewing themselves as potential failure or imposters, which happens a lot for lawyers. So I think a resilient lawyer is somebody runs a successful practice and has a healthy psychological profile.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:30] Great response. Thank you so much Jared for joining me today, I really appreciate it.

Jared Correia: [00:29:36] My pleasure, this was really fun. I'm glad we could do it.

Closing: [00:29:42] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Megan Boyd on to talk about what transitioning into a new career from law looks like.

Megan Boyd is a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. Before entering academia, Megan served as a law clerk and practiced law at a mid-sized firm, where she did insurance coverage and bad faith work as co-chairperson of the firm's appellate practice group. She has written numerous articles about legal writing and is a frequent speaker on that topic at continuing legal education events and conferences throughout the country. She is also the co-author of the book "Show, Don't Tell: Legal Writing for the Real World."

Topics Covered

• How she made the decision to leave the traditional law practice and focus on legal writing, and her advice to law students to better prepare them for working in a law practice.
• Advice for students and lawyers thinking about leaving law; understanding that although the job can be stressful, constant anxiety towards the amount of work is unhealthy, and balancing your happiness with a career is possible.
• How to discern when is the right time to re-evaluate your happiness/career, and tools to help manage work anxiety.
• Challenges with and benefits of leaving the law practice.

You can contact Megan on Twitter or via email at boyd_megan@yahoo.com.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Megan Boyd: [00:00:09] When you find something that you love, one of two things will happen. Either the money will come, or it won't but you won't care.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I have Megan Boyd. She is a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. Before entering academia, Megan served as a law clerk and practiced law at a mid-sized firm, where she did insurance coverage and bad-faith work as co-chairperson of the firm's appellate practice group. She's written numerous articles about legal writing, and is a frequent speaker on the topic at CLE events at conferences around the country. She is also the co-author of the book "Show, Don't Tell: Legal Writing for the Real World." I wanted to have Megan on the show to chat about career options for lawyers that don't want to practice law anymore.

[00:01:25] Also, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episodes, go back and check it out. It was on May 16th and May 30th. I shared 2 six-minute meditation and mindfulness practices to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course, Mindful Pause. I know for so many lawyers, finding any time for themselves and giving the thinking mind a rest can be a huge challenge. So I wanted to create a course that can fit easily into even the busiest lawyer's schedule. It's called Mindful Pause, and you can learn more about it on JeenaCho.com. Again, that's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, or head on over to the show notes to check it out. And with that, here's Megan. Hi Megan, welcome to the show.

Megan Boyd: [00:02:13] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Megan Boyd: [00:02:19] Sure, my name is Megan Boyd. I'm a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. I teach a number of different classes, including legal writing classes, animal law, civil procedure (which is going to be new for me this coming year), and I have written a number of articles about legal writing. I do CLE's and speak at conferences about it, and I am the co-author of a book on legal writing, so it's a topic that I'm very, very interested in.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] And so I want to start your story back when you were in law school. When did you decide, law practice isn't right for me?

Megan Boyd: [00:03:03] So, I loved law school itself. I mean literally loved every minute of it. I'm that rare person who really, really enjoy law school, because I love to learn, I loved the environment. But after my second year of law school, I did a summer clerkship, was a summer associate, and it was a really, really terrible experience. And I found myself crying on my drive home most days, and I just knew that this was not normal.

[00:03:31] Something was wrong, and so I thought do I really want to be a lawyer, if this is what lawyers do every day? And obviously a summer associate experience is not necessarily indicative of what lawyers do every day, but the fact that I was unhappy doing that told me that there might be some problems in the future. But I graduated from law school in 2008, a lot of my classmates didn't have jobs and I felt really lucky to have a job. I had gone straight through from college to law school, and I needed to get out and earn some money and try this at least, I thought. Even though I was pretty sure after that second-year summer that I did not want to practice law for the rest of my life, which was really sad and hard and difficult, a really, really, difficult situation to find yourself in. Because I still had one more year of school to go, and I'm thinking did I make a huge mistake in coming to law school? And now thinking, I'm going to have spent these three years going to school to be a part of a profession that I don't think I really want to be a part of.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:47] Wow, yeah.

Megan Boyd: [00:04:49] So that was tough.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:50] Yeah. And going to law school is such a huge commitment, and to be halfway through it and go oh, did I make a mistake? That must have been really hard and scary.

Megan Boyd: [00:05:02] It was, it was really tough and really scary. And the prospect of being as unhappy as I was that summer for the next 30 years or more was really, really daunting for me. And again, I went back for my third year. And I loved law school so much, and I couldn't figure out why it was that I didn't like doing the things that lawyers do. And subsequently, I figured out what it was about law practice that I didn't really enjoy. But at the time, I really couldn't put my finger on it.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:41] What were the specifics for why you didn't enjoy law practice?

Megan Boyd: [00:05:46] Well I think one of the things is that I am a Type A person, which many lawyers are, but I did not like not having control over my own schedule. I always felt like I could not anticipate what each day would bring. And I know for some people that's a really exciting thing, they love new challenges and things like that. But I'm the type of person where I need to get up each day and be able to know what my day was going to look like, and further ahead what the next few days or the rest of the week was going to look like. And I never felt like I could do that in law practice, because there were always "emergencies" that weren't really emergencies that would come up. Or I would have prepared extensively to go take a deposition and it would get canceled the night before, and I had in my mind mentally prepared for that and that's what I'm going to be doing tomorrow. And I just found that that was really bothersome for me. And I remember the first year I practiced law, a big document review project came up right before Thanksgiving.

[00:06:57] And this was when we had a bunch of documents still on paper. And I remember lugging home binders and binders full of paper, and sitting on my grandmother's floor over my Thanksgiving holiday when I wanted to be spending time with my family, sitting and reviewing these documents. And it was a miserable experience.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:22] So when you're working with law students now, how do you have that conversation about the realities of being a lawyer? Because so much of what you say, and I'm sure every lawyer that's listening to this podcast is like yeah, that's just what law practice looks like. So what do you tell the law students?

Megan Boyd: [00:07:44] So I walk a really fine line, because I never want to discourage anyone from being a lawyer, from completing law school and becoming a lawyer. Because I do think that in many ways it's a really great, honorable profession. And there are many people I know who are happy practicing law. So I never want my dissatisfaction with law practice to rub off on them. But I do talk to them quite a lot about figuring out what it is in law that you want to do, what is it that motivates you? I'm thinking about writing a little article for the ABA law student blog about this, but I think one of the things that I did not do as a law student and that would have served me well was to figure out what it is that motivates me, what it is about law practice that I enjoy. And then look for a job or look for a job in the future that met all of my criteria and the things that I wanted.

Some people are motivated by money, and that's absolutely fine. Other people are motivated by doing good, having that hands-on client contact and making a real difference in some folk's lives. Other people are motivated by a job where they get a lot of praise and they feel like they're being told on a regular basis that they're doing a good job, and that they're earning their keep and that type of thing. So I really encourage students to figure out what it is that motivates them early on, and to work for that and toward that. I always tell students, so many of the students that I see and so many people who go to law school are motivated by the prospect of money. And I tell them from my own experience, when you find something that you love one of two things will happen: either the money will come, or it won't but you won't care. And I think that that's a really important thing for law students and young lawyers, and even more developed lawyers to remember. When taking a risk in particular, maybe changing a practice area or firm, or whatever the case may be. That when you're doing something that you really love, even if you are motivated by money, it stops mattering.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:08] Yeah, that's really great advice. And also, I really appreciate the fact that you're willing to have these conversations with law students. Because when I was in law school, I don't know that I had a whole lot of conversations with my professors about the actual practice of law. And it's kind of a charming experience to go from law school to my first job and go, I don't really know anything and no one told me about having to work around the clock. And just the constant level of anxiety that I would feel.

Megan Boyd: [00:10:44] Yeah, and talking about things that made me ill-suited for the practice of law, that was one of the things as well. I lived in pretty much 24/7, constant anxiety. When I started practicing law, initially I would look forward every week to Friday because I would have the whole weekend. And then the dread would start setting in on Sunday afternoon, which was bad in of itself. But the longer I practiced, it got to the point where I didn't even have my weekends anymore; the dread started setting in earlier and earlier, and there was no point at which I was happy or comfortable, or anxiety-free.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:34] Wow. So, did that anxiety dissipate once you left law practice and went into academia?

Megan Boyd: [00:11:42] So I will tell you that it did, but it took a number of years for it to come down, which sounds strange. So I initially practiced at one law firm, and about two years in I left to go to another law firm. And changing firms did make some difference, because at the second firm I had a little bit more control over my own schedule. Still not any real control, right, because of clients and courts and scheduling, things like that. But I had more control, and so it did get a little better there. And I thought for about a year, maybe I can do this; maybe I was wrong, maybe it was just the two prior environments that I was in. But after about a year of being at that job, I still was not happy. So I knew that I really had to consider making the change. Once I left law practice, it really took about two years for me to come down from the constant level of stress and anxiety that I existed under when I practiced law.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:52] Wow.

Megan Boyd: [00:12:53] And that was, it was amazing to me that it didn't immediately dissipate. I think in my mind I thought it would, I thought as soon as I leave law practice all of a sudden my life will change immediately. And it didn't, it really took a while to get rid of all of that anxiety that had built up inside of me.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:16] Because you know, I think that's always something that I struggle with internally. How much of the anxiety is just the way that I am wired? And so going and seeing a therapist and getting more tools under my belt, having a mindfulness practice and having all of these tools to manage anxiety is really what I need? Or is it just that the job itself is wrong for me? So I feel like it's always that dance of being able to discern the two. Do you have thoughts on that? Because you can experience anxiety in any job, but how much of it is sort of you having to do internal work on yourself and have tools to manage anxiety, versus an, "I just need to leave this job" kind of situation?

Megan Boyd: [00:14:14] Yeah, it's definitely both. I am a high-anxiety person; I always have been. So it's not that my job now is no anxiety by any stretch of the imagination. So I think that one of the things that leaving law practice made me see was that I needed to learn to control the anxiety that is always present within me. Now my anxiety decreased substantially by the end of those two years after I left, but it certainly didn't go away. And again, that was something that was surprising to me because I thought it would. So that's when I really started looking into how can I learn to control the anxiety that is always going to exist within me. I'm one of those weird people who if I don't have something to make me anxious, I start creating possible things to make me anxious; it's that bad. So it was once I left law that I was able to start thinking more deeply about tools and strategies and the work I needed to do so that I could live a life that I didn't need to take a vacation from all the time.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:11] What were some of those tools or help or strategies that you found to be helpful for managing that persistent, low-grade anxiety?

Megan Boyd: [00:16:17] One of the things that I learned from a therapist (she taught me a lot of really great things, but) was every day I would write down (I would just do it on my phone, make myself a little note) ten things that I was grateful for. And in going back and looking at some of those now from years ago, it's many of the same things. And at first I had trouble coming up with ten things that I was grateful for; I was in such a bad state that I couldn't really think of ten things that I was grateful for. And every now and then, even now when I'm feeling a lot of anxiety, I will sit down and do that. And sometimes it's something really simple, like I was able to take a nap today. And sometimes its big things, like my family and my friends and stuff like that. So that was one of the things that really helped me. It sounds really simple, but it really helped me focus on the things in my life that bring me joy and that make me happy. Instead of focusing on the things in my life that stress me out, give me anxiety. So that was one of the things.

[00:17:23] Meditation practice is another, I use an app called Insight Timer. I recommend it to students who I talk to who have anxiety issues, I think Insight Timer is really great. Sometimes I use the guided meditations, sometimes it's just the music. But it really puts me in a good state, if I'm willing to focus and work on the meditation. You know that's another thing, meditation is really a practice; it does require effort. That's the misnomer people think, that meditation you can just sit and do it and not have to work at it, just passively. But doing that, learning to take better care of myself in terms of doing things that I enjoy. For so much of my life, literally everything I did was work. My therapist used to tell me that I collect jobs like people collect knick-knacks. Because at any given time I would have two or three jobs that I was doing; I am a workaholic and I've always been a workaholic.

And it's stepping back from that, and I honestly had gotten to a point where I could not remember the things that I enjoyed doing that weren't work. Which is a really sad and sick place to find yourself in. I remember one thing I started doing is I really liked to read magazines, so I would give myself permission every week when I would go to the grocery store on Sunday, to buy a magazine. I didn't want one that came in in the mail, but to actually purchase a magazine and to sit down and read it. Which Was something that I really enjoyed, but I had gotten to a point in my life where everything that I used to enjoy no longer brought me any joy, because when I was doing it I was just worried about what I needed to be doing instead. Exercise is great for me; I need to exercise on a regular basis. When I do not it is not good for my mental health. So it's just knowing that and knowing that even if I really, really don't want to go to the gym or don't want to go for a walk or run, that I really need to do so for my own health, that it's a self-care thing.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:35] I love all of those, and that word self-care is just so key. It's funny, I also had a therapist that suggested I write down just three things I'm grateful for every day. And I actually started having so much anxiety around the fact that my grateful list wasn't good enough. I'd write down things like, I'm so grateful for the lunch that I ate today, and then I'd be like oh my gosh really, you're grateful for your lunch?!

Megan Boyd: [00:20:00] Right, yeah. You know my therapist was really good at telling me, these can be silly things. They can absolutely be silly, they don't have to be big, monumental things. I laugh, I always tell people I am the best direction follower you can possibly imagine. So I was dutiful about doing this, and I would bring it and I would show it to her and she would give me approval, and I was like yes I've done this right!

[00:20:30] Which is in itself not the greatest thing, but I was dutiful about doing it. And the more I did it, the easier it sort of got to do. And again, it sounds like a really silly thing, but it really, really did have a big impact on me. And like I said, even now I'll go back and I'll read the things that I wrote as long as four or five years ago, and see what it was that day that I was feeling really grateful for. And it's many of the same things that I feel grateful for now, so it's a reminder that these really good things are still in my life.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:08] I use an app called Happy Feed, kind of the same thing. It's three things you are grateful for, it prompts you. And I also like being able to scroll back and see what I wrote previously. I'm also a huge fan of Insight Timer. I have some of my guided meditations on there too, so definitely check it out. And what I love about Insight Timer is that you get stars, and I feel like as adults we need more opportunities where someone give you a gold star for a job well done.

Megan Boyd: [00:21:36] Yeah, absolutely. I love it that it's like you've meditated five days in a row. And I'm like yes, yes I have! Again, it's the gold star thing. It's really good at cheering you on. And I think Insight Timer is really cool because it has so many different options for you. So whether you want a really short practice or longer practice, whether you want to sleep, whether you need help with anxiety, or various things that you can put into Insight Timer and it'll pop up with suggestions for meditations and talks and all kinds of things that will really help you.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:14] And for the younger attorneys out there, or even law students that are like, I just don't think law practice is right for me. What advice or tools or strategies would you offer to them?

Megan Boyd: [00:22:32] I would say that you need to at least try it out. Even though I really didn't want to, I needed to go and try it out and see if maybe it was just a bad time in my life that led me to believe this. And so I stuck it out for five years, but it was about at the end of year three where I started getting ready to make my move. And it took two years for me to do it. So I think that that's a good lesson, because even if you get in and you're like gosh, I really, really am ill-suited for this, I need to find something else to do. It's oftentimes really difficult to do that. It's figuring out how to, number one. And it's getting up the courage to do so. That was one of the things that was hard for me, because as unhappy as I was, it was still fear of the unknown was worse than the unhappiness that I felt. And actually, one of the things that I did was I got some bonus money (one of the years when I got a bonus) and I took that money and I hired a career coach. I remember some of my friends saying, that's a waste of money, you don't even know that that's going to work. And I said yeah, but what I'm doing right now isn't working so it's worth a shot. And the thing is that the stuff that the career coach did for me was nothing that was rocket science right?

Now in retrospect, it makes perfect sense. But what she did was sit me down and say, "What is it you like to do? Are there parts of law practice that you really enjoy? Could we figure out a way for you to practice law so you did mostly those things and little of other things?" And she really got me thinking about what is it that I do really enjoy about law. I loved law school, as I've said several times here, and I really thought that I might want to go teach. I had no idea how to get on the path to do that, and she really helped me to figure out what I needed to do to get to a point where I could go into academia and teach. And again, because I'm a good direction follower I did everything that she asked me to do. She would give me homework assignments and it was the fear of disappointing her or letting her down that really motivated me to do them, because they were things that made a lot of sense but it required me to reach out to people and go outside of my comfort zone. And without that additional motivation, I'm not sure I would have done it on my own or I would have done it as quickly as I did.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:30] Yeah and I think that's really the key, is to do those things that scare you and make you uncomfortable. Because that's really the only way you're going to grow and find your path.

Megan Boyd: [00:26:38] Yeah, absolutely. I talk to so many lawyers who my friends, my age, many older, who are really, really unhappy, but they're not willing to put in the work it would take to figure out how to change what they do or to leave law. There's not a lot of advice that either you or I or really anybody else can offer somebody who's just not willing to do that. It is scary, it takes a lot of courage to leave something that you've spent so many years of your life both preparing for and doing. And so you really have to motivate yourself to get up that courage to do it, or you're never going to leave. Because let's face it, there are lawyers who make a ton of money and lawyers who don't make a lot, but nobody is living at the poverty line. People who practice law for the most part make an okay living to survive.

[00:27:36] So for those people like me, who made a pretty good living, it's also hard mentally to think to yourself, I'm going to be leaving all of this for the unknown. I know when I was getting ready to leave, people (including my family members) thought that I was just absolutely out of my mind. They said why would you leave what you have? You have a great job, you're doing well at your firm (which I was), you have a job that many people would die to have. Why are you voluntarily giving this up? And it was again having the strength and courage to be like, this isn't for me. And it took years to get up that courage, it wasn't something that happened immediately.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:21] And also I think that's where working with a coach is really helpful, because they're not going to have an agenda. "You have such a good thing going, why don't you just stay?" They're going to be unbiased and figure out what is it that you want, not what your friends think you should do or what your family thinks you should do. So I think that's the other benefit of working with a coach.

Megan Boyd: [00:28:34] Yeah, absolutely. And that's where it's different than talking with friends or things like that, people who know you. Having somebody like a coach or a therapist, who is unbiased and who is not willing to put up with your crap, is really, really important. Not everybody can afford to hire a career coach or things like that, but I think finding somebody you can talk to, who will give you good advice is key. And honestly it's frightening; it was frightening for me because I didn't want my firm to know that I was thinking about leaving law practice. So I was initially very hesitant to even tell anybody, and it was actually the telling people once I got more comfortable with that idea that really got me thinking about other things that I could do. Because of course my experience was somewhat limited, but talking to other folks they said, have you thought about doing this, or have you thought about going here? And it was really sharing that with other people and hearing their feedback that convinced me that I could do it; that it was something that I could do, and that the world wouldn't end if I left.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:45] And so much of that is thoughts that are not based in fact or reality.

Megan Boyd: [00:29:48] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know I really loved the boss that I worked for at my firm, so much so that my friends would say, yeah if you can't be happy practicing law for him you can't really be happy practicing law. And I absolutely thought that that was true. And one of the things that was very stressful for me was leaving him, because he was great and he was so good to me. So that stressed me out, and I left and the world didn't end, and everything is fine. He's still practicing law and doing great, and has other associates and partners who work for him, and everything is fine. But again, when you're caught sort of in yourself and in your own head, that was something that also stressed me out. Money is a huge stressor for many people who want to leave the law but don't feel like they can because of finances.

I wasn't a person who was in that position because I didn't really have a lot of loans from law school, I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to go to law school so I didn't have a lot of student loans. I hadn't bought a big house or a fancy car, I didn't have children in private school; I wasn't caught by the golden handcuffs. And so I felt that I had a lot more ability to do this than maybe some other lawyers did. But it still took preparation for me to leave. My job after I left traditional law practice was as a law clerk for a judge, and I made less than half of the money there that I made the year before. So that required looking at my finances and figuring out what am I spending extraneous money on that I don't really need to. And I found that there were a lot of things that I was doing and buying that I was doing and buying to make myself feel better.

[00:32:49] I was justifying my retail therapy; I had worked so hard, I had been up late at the office many nights in a row preparing for this trial, and then it settled. So I'm going to go out and buy myself something to celebrate all the hard work I've put it in. And once you get to a place where you're happy with your job and happy in your life, you don't need that anymore. But for anybody who's thinking about leaving, obviously money is something that you have to think about. You have to start preparing for that ahead of time, reducing your debt or minimizing your expenses, or figuring out can my spouse maybe go back to work or go back to work full-time, and can we make this work in that way if I do this? I don't think for most lawyers it's something that you can just one day say I'm going to do this and immediately make that happen.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:49] Megan, it was so nice having you on the show. For the listeners out there that want to connect with you, what are some of the ways they can connect with you?

Megan Boyd: [00:33:51] I am pretty active on Twitter, my handle is @LadyLegalWriter. And I tweet about language and writing and travel, and other things that just really interests me. And anybody who is interested in chatting about leaving law practice or figuring out ways to find an area of law practice they really love and enjoy, can absolutely e-mail me. I'm happy to chat about it, because again I've done it and I think it always helps to talk to somebody who's done it before. And so my email address is boyd_megan@yahoo.com.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:23] And Megan, my last question to you is this. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Megan Boyd: [00:34:31] To me, being a resilient lawyer means always learning from everything that you do. Whether it's law-based, learning from past mistakes that you've made, figuring out what you would do different in handling cases in the future. Or learning more about yourself as you go along in law practice, and figuring out what it is again that motivates you. What are the areas that you love, what are the areas that you don't love as much, and how can you figure out a way to develop a law practice in the traditional sense, or to move outside of a traditional law practice to find something that really makes you happy and brings you joy? Because now that I have that in my life, I realize how unhappy I was beforehand and how I would be so unhappy now if I were still in the area of practice and in the traditional law practice that I was in. So it's absolutely about figuring those things out, and being willing to take a chance and figure out what it is that really motivates you, and to move outside of what people think that you should be doing or should do into something that you love and that you want to do.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:41] Great advice. Megan, thank you so much for joining me today.

Megan Boyd: [00:35:44] Thank you Jeena.

Closing: [00:35:44] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Kori Carew on to talk about awareness of how we interact with each other and the side effects of inactive interactions.

Kori Carew is a community builder who generates awareness and understanding of critical human issues by creating the space for open dialogue that enables people to expand their perspective and drive positive change. She is a disruptor and social justice advocate that brings a keen sensitivity to belonging and inclusion across differences and creating space for the under-represented. Kori's drive toward redefining the circle of belonging fuels her work in her community.

Topics Covered

• Practicing a higher level of listening where you are trying to connect with the other person in terms of values and understanding to see past bias and help to see each other for who we really are.
• Authenticity and covering in conversation in a world where we all have implicit bias from living in a world where we have the same stereotypes and myths about different groups of people.
• Self-care for women of color.
• Toll of bias and micro-aggressions on people of color and how we can better integrate mindfulness into our lives.

Find out more and connect with Kori at:
Twitter
LinkedIn
Instagram
www.KoriCarew.com
Kori Carew | TEDx | Just belonging: finding the courage to interrupt bias

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Kori Carew: [00:00:04] Practicing a higher level of listening, where you are trying to connect with the other person in terms of values and in terms of understanding what they are saying.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Kori Carew. She is a community builder who generates awareness and understanding of critical human issues by creating a space and climate for open dialogue that is meaningful, enables people to expand their perspective, and drives positive change. Her drive towards redefining the circle of belonging fuels her work in the workplace, as well as in her community. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last couple of bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared very short, six-minute guided meditation practices to help you let go of stress and anxiety.

[00:01:31] Also, I think it's really interesting there's a body of research which suggests that when we're more mindful, we are better able to listen to others. And so a lot of my conversation with Kori was around listening to another human being with empathy and compassion. And listening not only just to hear the words, but listening with your whole heart. And I certainly found that as my meditation practice deepens, my ability to listen without judgment and listen and have less knee-jerk reaction has certainly improved. And these are skills that we can practice, and of course what we practice becomes stronger.

[00:02:18] So I invite you to check out Mindful Pause, which is a daily, six-minute mindfulness practice for lawyers. And it includes guided meditations as well as very practical ways of incorporating mindfulness and meditation into your daily life. You can head on over to JeenaCho.com. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, again that's JeenaCho.com to learn more about the program. And with that, here's Kori. Welcome Kori Carew to The Resilient Lawyer podcast, I'm so happy to have you.

Kori Carew: [00:02:53] I'm so happy to be here Jeena, so honored and thrilled to be having this conversation with you.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:58] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do.

Kori Carew: [00:03:03] Ah. I am a child of the world, one of those kids who grew up in a family that used to be referred to as a "United Nations family". I am an oldest daughter of four to a very West African family. I grew up in an area that was very, very diverse. I grew up in Niger, where there are over 300 different ethnic groups with different languages, traditions, cultures. I grew up on a university campus with people from all over the world. My family is multireligious, multiethnic, multiracial, multi a whole bunch of things. Half of my family is Muslim, half of my family is Christian. And I grew up as a Christian in a very conservative, some would say somewhat fundamentalist part of northern Nigeria. But, I am a mom, social activist, social advocate. I am first and foremost, I think of myself as an advocate called to speak for people who don't have a voice, for people who are marginalized and under-represented.

[00:04:05] I am called to help people build bridges across differences, and to equip and empower women and marginalized people to succeed despite the challenges. So that's essentially what I do, whether it's at work or elsewhere. In my work, official paid work, what I really do is develop organizational solutions to help create a more inclusive and diverse workplace. I work with leadership to empower them to be more inclusive leaders and to interrupt bias. And essentially, I see my job as disrupting the status quo to create more equity and belonging.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:46] I love that, I love all of that. And I just saw this wonderful TEDx talk that you did, which I will link to in the show notes. I think it's a wonderful talk about how do we start bridging the gap. And it just feels like at this particular moment in time that we're talking past each other often. And you give this wonderful example of saying, "This is my lived experience," and the other person says, well I too had a hard life. And feels like that's what we often do; as a woman of color you say, I was mistaken for the secretary, I was mistaken for the defendant, I was mistaken for the court reporter. And then the white male lawyer says, well I may not have had any of those experiences, but I too had it hard; I grew up in a really poor family, and just on and on and on.

[00:05:45] So as we start to frame this conversation about we start listening to one another, what are some tools or suggestions that you recommend for being able to build empathy?

Kori Carew: [00:06:01] Yeah. Wow, that's a hard one. One of the things that strikes me that we suffer with as a culture is a mindset of scarcity. We act in so many ways as if there isn't enough, and you see it in the political discussion around who's getting opportunities and who isn't, right? The other day somebody said to me on a Starbucks Facebook wall page that when we talk about diversity, what we mean is everybody but white men. And that is not true, that's not accurate, but it's a mindset of scarcity. There isn't enough. If you progress or opportunities come your way, then it's coming away from me. And that shows up in our conversations, because instead of listening to one another we start to compare; as if we can rank suffering.

[00:07:01] You know, that's what it feels like to me. And we do it not with just race. I think you've given some excellent examples where you talk about your experience as a marginalized person, because you're a woman or because you're a woman of color, or that intersection of the two that we know is a double whammy. And somebody wants to, rather than sitting in the space and listening to you and absorbing and trying to understand what must that feel like for her, and how can I use my experience to connect with her and be part of the solution, wants to one-up you by telling you their experience. Which may be different or inapplicable.

[00:07:38] And what I see is that we not only do this with race, but we do it with everything. I say I'm in grief because I had a miscarriage, and someone says well at least you didn't have a stillbirth. Or I'm having trouble getting pregnant, we've been trying for two years. "Well, I've had seven years of infertility treatment." And we do that with the small things and the big things, and when we do it with race we're taking something that is a national wound, something that has generational impact, something that so deeply affects people's day-to-day lives, and we minimize it even more. And what it does is it shuts down our ability to actually have a conversation. When you hear a lot of people of color say, I've seen articles and books written where people are saying, "Why I won't talk about race with white people anymore." And it may seem very harsh for them to say that, but what they're saying is that it's exhausting if it becomes a competition.

[00:08:49] So in terms of tools and practical things that we can do, practicing a higher level of listening. Where you are trying to connect with the other person, in terms of values and in terms of understanding what they're saying. To be able to still ourselves and our temptation to make it about us, to center the conversation around us, to be able to say, "How can I try to put myself in this person's shoes? I've never walked in their shoes so chances are I'm not going to be able to get myself all the way there, but how can I get close?"

[00:09:29] So perhaps that tendency to say, well I may not be a woman of color but I've also had it hard, maybe leveraging that experience to say, okay I know what it feels like to have things hard. So now let me imagine what that feels like to not only have things hard, but to constantly be marginalized or to be made to feel like I don't belong. And this is where listening with empathy and suspending judgment, being able to not attribute good or bad to it. To listen to your story when you're sharing about all those times you have felt diminished and not try to attach judgment to it. To not say, "Oh Jeena you're being too sensitive," or well I wouldn't have cared about that, or, well this is the problem with women; you make everything into a big deal and it's a problem because you've chosen to make it a problem. And these are skills that we can learn, but we have to practice them. If you have children, I think children are great people to practice this with, because lord knows we definitely always want to steer them and correct them. And it's so incredibly hard to just listen and ask them questions to better understand, as opposed to jumping in and telling them what to do because we feel responsible for them.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:56] Yeah. I think part of what makes this conversation hard is that there is this sense, whether it's implicit or explicit, that "you" the white person is responsible for this. So I think there is this natural tendency to become defensive. When I talk about the judge that looked at me and said, "Are you the Asian language interpreter?" And when I share that story with another white male lawyer, I think there is this feeling like oh, I am part of that category of people and therefore I am bad. And I think that's perhaps what leads to that inclination or temptation to say, well you know I was once mistaken for whatever, the defendant. You know, that kind of one-upmanship, rather than say wow, that must have been really hard. Or I can't even imagine that happening, tell me more. So how do we move from this place of blaming others, and also moving away from feeling like you're being blamed? How do we encourage people to move towards solutions?

Kori Carew: [00:12:16] The first part of the question was how do we move away from blame; I think it's twofold. I think there are times that people are being blamed, and then I think there are other times where people are hearing blame where none is ascribed. Robin D'Angelo comes up with the term "white fragility" and "white tears" which a lot of people have been using lately. I generally don't use it in my work, but I understand the concept. And some of what has to happen is we all have to agree that it's going to be uncomfortable and painful at times, but that if we ultimately want things to be better we have to commit to sitting in that discomfort.

[00:13:02] And so there are going to be times that topics are going to come up where people are going to feel like they're being blamed or attacked. But part of emotional intelligence and part of developing better people skills is being able to step back and say, wait a minute am I being attacked? Or is this person just sharing their experience? And one of the things that I don't think we do very well in the United States when it comes to race or other systemic isms, is we don't differentiate between what is systemic or cultural and what is individual. We have so collapsed the conversation on racism, for example, we've reduced it down to an overly simplistic idea that it is somebody being malicious or discriminating based on race. Right?

We've dulled it down so much, so a lot of times when people are reactive and say, well I'm not racist or I'm not this or I'm not that, or when they minimize bad behavior. When they say, well I know that person, I know Jeena, Jeena is a good person; she has a good heart, she couldn't have done that. We completely misunderstand how racism works. So once we begin to understand that there are systemic and structural elements to this, historical elements that are woven into the foundation of this country and the culture, you then begin to be better able to separate the conversation of what is happening to people and the experiences from individuals who are in the system who may benefit from privilege or who may be harmed through oppression. And that begins to create an area, some space where we all can say okay, we're all in this system.

[00:14:54] Just like implicit bias; we all have implicit bias, and the reason we have it is because we're all subjected and bombarded by the same messages, the same stereotypes, the same myths, about different groups of people. And so I can look at that and say, here's the system. I as a Christian am showing up to work. And I get to celebrate Christmas, I get to celebrate Easter. I don't have to take special days off for Christmas, the office is going to be closed. But the person who is observing Ramadan right now, or who may need time off for Eid, they may not have that privilege. So when someone is talking about Christian privilege, I don't necessarily have to be defensive and feel attacked. I can say, in this system that has been created through nothing that I did, I certainly benefit from that Christian privilege. But somebody else is at a disadvantage. How can I use my position to be part of the solution? So that's part of it.

[00:15:54] A second part of it is that there are times that people are blamed and shamed and attacked, and we have to have a philosophy that that is not okay. A big part of my work, a foundational part of my work and how I approach things at my workplace, at church and the community, is that we have to develop a culture of grace. And that is a culture of acknowledging that while we're on the journey, people are going to come into this conversation at different places of awareness. You're going to meet people who are going to join the conversation who think of themselves as advocates and allies, who probably perpetuate some problematic racist views. And we're seeing a lot of that.

[00:16:35] There's a lot of conversation now about liberal progressives, and how even those of us who consider ourselves progressive, sometimes we hold some views that are really problematic. You're going to have people who are going to come into the conversation because they've never had to deal with it, but they want to be part of the solution. So they are at the early stages, they may not even know the foundational things. You're going to share some of your stories with them and they're going to say, Oh my gosh. Here's a common one. "Oh my God, this is not America." And then some person of color is going to say, excuse me? This is the America I've known. Just because you were not aware of it doesn't mean that this hasn't always been real. So if we don't have grace in that process to say people are going to come in at different levels, and if we want to encourage people to speak and to be part of the conversation then we can't shut them down when they say something we don't like. And we have to have better ways of showing when they say things that are offensive.

[00:17:37] One of the things that I've learned from Renee Myers, she has this terminology where she says, "Give people the permission to say ouch." So when you say something that you may be well-meaning or we're having a discussion on how to fix a problem and you start saying something like (because I've heard this), "I don't really see what the obstacles are, I don't understand why minority attorneys aren't succeeding they've been given everything." Or at one firm that I worked at, a partner saying, "I've heard feedback that the women feel that there aren't the same opportunities for them and that we have some sexism, and I'm going to call a meeting and tell them all that that's not true." And I thought to myself, that's a great plan; please come tell us about our experiences and come tell us, because you apparently know better than we do.

[00:18:30] But what she talks about is in those situations, develop terminology to be able to say things like ouch. So what I've done in my work is, we may have different ways but encouraging people to be able to say, wow that's very interesting that you feel that way. But can I give you some feedback? When you say "X," what I hear is "this." I had one partner that I worked with that I would joke with him because he used to coach soccer, I would tell him I'm going to have yellow cards ready for you and red cards. And when you start seeing that yellow card, you need to slow down. And when I show you a red card, you need to stop. But we had that personal relationship because he had asked me to coach him. And that was our system for when he would get emotional; when he needed someone to help him see, "Hey, some of what you're saying is not landing okay."

[00:19:32] So as part of our communities, as part of our groups, we have to learn to do that. If we're going to have conversations with people, we have to learn to be able to communicate back to them about why something they're saying or doing is problematic, without attacking them as a person. And shame is such a part of our culture. You know Brene Brown differentiates shame from guilt as shame is when someone feels like they are a bad person, as opposed to they did a bad thing or they made a mistake. And what we've done in our culture is we use shame to control people. We communicate to them in ways to make them feel like they are a bad person, or you are the thing that you've done; you are that mistake that you've made. And it creeps up in our conversations around racism and other isms.

[00:20:25] And I think for the most part, it is possible to have conversations with folks without getting into that. Now, when people are outright problematic, we sometimes have to be firmer in shutting that down. There has to be a line where we say, we're all for free conversation but this here crosses the line, and we're not going to belittle other people; not in this space, because those are not our values.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:54] Can you talk about this concept of covering, what that means and how that shows up for people?

Kori Carew: [00:21:02] Ah, covering. So I first learned about covering when I listened to Kenji Yoshino several years ago. And when I heard him speak I just decided, oh my god I'm in love with this guy; I'm in love with his brain, he is brilliant. But the way he presented it, I walked up to him and I said, "Kenji I never had a word for what I was feeling and you just gave me a word." That's how I felt. What he described and what he talked about, it resonated with me. I'm like, oh my god I know exactly what that is. What I didn't know was that there's a word for it. And so, the concept of covering actually dates back to 1963. A man named Goffman wrote a book called "Stigma," and what he talked about was how people from groups, various demographic groups, sometimes have traits that are disfavored or stigmatized in the mainstream. And so what they do, people from these groups, is they go through great effort to minimize those so-called disfavorable traits. It's different than passing, with passing for example passing would be a very light-skinned black woman who people think is white. So you can get away with people thinking you're white.

[00:22:27] With covering, people know that you're black, they know you're Hispanic, they know you're a woman. But there's something about that group, traits, stigmas, myths, stereotypes, whatever, that we go out of our way to downplay. Some of the common examples, in Kenji's research he found that one of the most common ways that black woman will cover is straighten their hair. So there's a lot of myths and pressure that in order for us to look professional and to be professional and to be accepted in white America, our hair has to be straightened. And so people will straighten their hair not because they authentically wanted, but these are the roles that we've been given in order to succeed.

Another common example is women who are mothers who will not have pictures of their children in the office, or not talk about their children because they're trying to stay away from that double-bind stereotype where we are perceived as not being very competent if we're mothers, or not dedicated to our career if we're mothers. And conversely, judged and criticized for not being good mothers if we're really good at our job or dedicated to our job. People who are LGBTQ who may not have pictures of their spouses in the office, or when they're asked what they do on the weekend deliberately go out of their way to use neutral language so you can't figure out that their spouse is same-sex, says them. So it's those things that constitute covering, and part of what Kenji points out in his work is that there's an area where the civil rights laws actually don't protect people. And ironically, yesterday I delivered a workshop on intersectionality and advancing women, advancing all women. And the same concept applies; there is this idea that there are ways in which we can still discriminate against people, but skirt the law. So if I am marginalized and mistreated in my job because I've chosen to wear my hair naturally, the way the case law falls out they can say, well this is not about race. That was a choice that you made in how you style your hair.

[00:24:55] When in fact, it is a core part of who I am and how I was created. And I am being asked to alter it to fit into some normative lens that is based on white culture, you know. So it's a very important concept I believe, and I believe another reason it's very important is it really conflicts with authenticity. And we know more and more how critical and important being authentic is, and what the toll is. We know from the studies that there is an emotional tax for example, that black employees face that women of color face. There's that extra burden that people have when they're being asked to conform. We know that when you have organizations that have different cultures, the ability for the organization to succeed in being inclusive depends on how well people are able to adapt across differences. And when you're asking people to cover, you're essentially asking them to minimize their diversity; you're asking them to minimize the areas that make them different.

And it's a form of denial, it's a form of saying, "Hey Jeena, we really value diversity so we want you to work here, but when you get here please be the whitest Asian woman that you can be." And I've used that example with people when I've talked to them about it, to say you know don't ask me to be the whitest black girl that you can find; give me space to be who I am. So that concept of covering I think is critical. It's a critical part of the conversation and creating inclusion and belonging, and being able to appreciate that there are different ways that people can show up and be and live. Some of the more powerful examples of covering that Kenji talks about, he talks about President Roosevelt and how even though people knew he was disabled, he deliberately would take pictures and meet with people behind his desk so that you couldn't see the wheelchair.

[00:27:02] So essentially, all you're doing is trying to remove from the consciousness of other people this disfavored trait. And think about how much energy goes into doing that. You know, changing how you speak and changing how you present yourself, and constantly thinking about the things that you have to downplay, just in order to be included. And that certainly is not inclusion.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:27] Well and also it is for the benefit of the other person, so that they would feel comfortable. You're sacrificing your own well-being so that the other person doesn't have to look at your afro or learn to say.. like I was born in Korea, my birth name is Shihan. And of course no one could say my name correctly, so eventually I was like okay I'll just go by Jeena because people can say that. But I think that too is a form of conforming who I am, so that I don't make other people feel uncomfortable. And that's such a lived experience for people of color, for all marginalized groups where you can't truly be yourself. What do you think is the impact on the company where people have to engage in covering?

Kori Carew: [00:28:25] Oh, the impact is detrimental; we know that from studies. It affects productivity, it affects engagement, it affects your energy. When an organization is pushing covering.. so I want to go back to something that you just said. The difference between covering is whether it's imposed externally by pressure, by perceptions, versus an individual choice. So if in your case you just decided, you know what I'm sick of them messing up my name so I'm going to go by Jeena because it irritates me when they mess up my name. That feels slightly different than when someone says, "How do you say your name? Say it again? Well I'm just going to call you Jeena because that's too hard to say.".

Jeena Cho: [00:29:09] That's exactly what happened when I was in third grade, yeah.

Kori Carew: [00:29:12] That is covering. That is covering. And I'm going to add something else to that. I think it is also so disrespectful, it's so disrespectful. You know my husband and I had this conversation when we were having kids. He's from Iowa, he was worried about the African names. And I really wanted my kids to have African names, I tried to negotiate for hyphenated names and he said no. And I thought, well doggone it there needs to be some.. I'm the one growing these babies. I'm the one doing the hard work, they need to have some stamp of Africanness on them. I wanted their first names to be African, and he was concerned about bullying, he was concerned about people making fun of their names. And then I heard from friends and other people saying, well what if people can't say their name, and what if this, and what if that. And I thought to myself, I have a difficult name; My name is Koriambanya.

[00:30:09] And almost my entire life, unless you're from my mother's ethnic group, you have not pronounced it correctly. But it is my name and I am proud of it. And I will go by Kori because Kori is truly part of my name, and it's the name of my father's chiefdom. You know, there's a story behind my name. Lady from Koriambanya chiefdom. So my name means something, and my parents took the time to name me, and I have pride in my name. But it bothered me that we have these conversations as people of color, we have these conversations as immigrants, but I'm supposed to be able to say Tschaikowsky and other hard names. I mean, if you can figure out how to say that I'm sorry, you can learn how to say other ethnic names. And I think our brains, we choose to be lazy. So what we're going to do when this podcast is done, is you're going to teach me how to say your name. Because I want to learn how to say your name correctly.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:12] I got kind of teary-eyed hearing you say that.

Kori Carew: [00:31:18] Don't be. But I do want to know how to say your name right. And I think there's this part of it that what we indicate is, we don't have the energy to put into learning your name, so I'm just going to call you something else. I had somebody else call me KoKo. I'm like, no, no, that's not my name. Don't give me a nickname, it's not that hard. It's not that hard. And there are people from Nigeria who say, there's an ethnic group, everybody from the ethnic group will say my name as "Kor-Ee." And then "Kor-ey". You know, there are all kinds of accents that people have. I am forgiving of that.

[00:31:57] I am forgiving of the fact that depending on what your first language was, it's going to impact how words come out. That's why people have accents. And I grew up around a ton of accents, and I'm okay with that. What I'm less okay with is when people don't even try to even come close. So at this point, I don't remember what your question was. I think your question was what is the toll in the workplace or the consequences in the workplace of covering.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:31] Yeah, and as you mentioned there is so much research. And I think that's the point that sometimes gets missed; it's not necessarily even just about that person, it's about the impact that it has on the group, on the team, on the organization, when people in that group don't have that sense of belonging, where they can truly be themselves. And if you've always been part of the majority and everyone that you work with looks like you, talks like you, has a very similar background, probably went to college, maybe law school together. You know, it's really hard to even describe the impact that it has when you have to engage in covering.

Kori Carew: [00:33:16] You're so right. But you know, the good thing, the positive thing about a conversation on covering is that it is an area where we can capture the attention of more people in the majority than a lot of other traditional areas of conversation. Because even white men report experiencing covering. So people who grow up in a different socioeconomic class, and they show up in the white-shoe law firm and they feel like they have to cover. They didn't grow up playing golf but now they have to act like they understand the country club culture, all kinds of different areas of covering. So what happens is, similar to the conversation that we started with before, where people say oh I had it hard too, but they use it negatively. The positive part with covering is that it can open up the door for people to go, oh yeah I know what that feels like.

One example that we've used almost every time at my firm we've talked about cultural competency, and we've talked about the different dimensions of culture and what that feels like when we create artificial standards that are based just on one cultural dimension and a normative lens that is not inclusive. What we have seen is, when we use the example of introverts extroverts. So there's some research that indicates that up to 70% of lawyers are introverts. But yet, still when you look at our stereotypes of what we believe a good business developer, good rainmaker is, it's always this person who is an extrovert and can walk into the room and just be the center and walks the world, you know or works the room rather. There's so many things that when we're interviewing people we're making these decisions. Do we think this person would be good with clients, do we think that they will be on their feet, do we think they will be good in the courtroom? And they're all based on extrovert attributes.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:23] Yeah.

Kori Carew: [00:35:24] Whereas, if you actually look at law firms and a lot of the people who are very good at what they do, I know extremely good trial lawyers that are introverts. Some of the best rainmakers that I know are introverts. They don't bring in business by working the room, but by building relationships with people one-on-one. And the difference between introverts and extroverts when it comes to dealing with people, it's not the stereotype of shyness or not liking people, it has more to do with where they get their energy. So an extrovert can walk into a room of 200 people and they can chit chat with a bunch of different people and work the room, whereas an introvert would rather just have a one-on-one conversation and go deeper with people. Which is an asset for business development; it's an asset for helping the client feel like, "I am present, I am here with you and what's going on with you is what I care about right now."

[00:36:25] And so what we do in the room is, there's always a question I'll ask or the facilitator will ask: how many of you in this room are introverts? And then people will raise their hands invariably. And then, how many of you feel exhausted by the time you get home, because you've been playing an extrovert all day? Or rather, how do you feel when you get home? Exhausted, worn out, those are the kind of terms that people use. And so then you say ah, okay.

[00:36:58] So when you come from a culture that is more direct and you're working in an indirect environment, or if you come from a culture that's hierarchical and people are saying you have to knock on the partner's doors and demand work and advocate for yourself and push for yourself, that's how you feel; exhausted. And they get it, they get it. Because most of us are covering something. It's just that when it comes to race and gender, we're really talking about some negative, really negative biases. Same with disability actually, and LGBTQ status; really negative biases that people may have. So it's something that we can use to our advantage to really create more inclusive environments.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:53] Yeah, that makes so much sense. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. Kori, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about your work, what are some places where they can do that?

Kori Carew: [00:38:05] Well I have a website, www.KoriCarew.com. And it's really a place where I go to talk about what does it look like to live an authentic, powerful life that's full of grace, being fierce, inclusion, and faith. So, my website is www.KoriCarew.com. I'm also on Twitter, and my handle is simply my name @KoriCarew. I'm also on Instagram, but I don't post very often on there. My nine-year-old niece over spring break said to me, Aunt Kori I think one area I could help you is helping you maximize your Instagram account. She also showed me how to get an account on YouTube. So yeah, the children in my life are educating me. So I'm on Twitter and Instagram with my name, @Kori Carew.

[00:39:00] I'm also on LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is probably where I post the most content that relates to diversity and inclusion and belonging. Sometimes I talk about authenticity there, but I weave all of that stuff in because I believe they're interconnected. Authenticity, leadership, belonging, inclusion, equity. So you can find me on any one of those places, but check out my website. Check out the articles there, and the videos. And, I love talking about this stuff because I think it's important and I think we have to create better ways of being, because everything our children are learning, they're learning from watching us and how we navigate the world.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:44] Yeah, so true. Kori, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Kori Carew: [00:39:54] I think being a resilient lawyer means being able to connect with who you are, what you're called to, and keep getting up. Keep moving forward, not moving forward in the sense of striving or a worldly definition of success, but more so putting out the light and the beauty and the work and the art that you were born to do. And continuing to grow as a person as you continue to do that, and just getting up. Some days we get up and we're exhausted. Like today, I got up and my body said, "I keep telling you-you're not 25 anymore." And being able to listen to that and say okay, so today I'm going to go a little slower. But still you keep moving, and you keep doing the work. You do the work that you're purposed for, that you're called for. That is your gift to this world and this universe, and you stay at it and you keep growing and you do it. To me, that is what being a resilient lawyer is.

Jeena Cho: [00:41:14] Beautiful. Kori, thank you so much for being with me today. I just so appreciate you and the work that you're doing in the world. And I just want to high-five ya!

Kori Carew: [00:41:26] Thank you, and I appreciate the work that you're doing. And we have got to get your work out further to our profession. We are desperate for this, whether we know it or not. We are desperate for more mindfulness, resilience, and just being better people. We're hungry for it. So thank you so much for what you do, and I love your podcast. Please, please keep it up. You're giving us some great content out there to help us live better lives. So thank you.

Closing: [00:42:09] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Brittany Allison on to talk about how to find joy as a diverse attorney and how to pursue a career you will enjoy. Brittany is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity.

Topics Covered

• Pursuing big changes to build a practice and career you enjoy, that aligns with your skill set, and where you can provide value.
• What the on-going process of determining how you want your career and practice to look like moving forward can look like.
• Exercising self-awareness, self-reflection, and purposeful decision-making to find fulfillment in law practice.
• Building confidence as a diverse attorney.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Brittany Allison: [00:00:03] For me, my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling that I'm having, and the next step from there is why am I feeling that way.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. I am so happy to have Brittany Allison. She is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity. Today we're going to chat about how she finds that sense of meaning and purpose in life, and also her experience as a corporate attorney.

Before we get into the interview, if you haven’t listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It’s a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don’t have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don’t you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Brittany. Brittany, welcome to the show.

Brittany Allison: [00:02:00] Thank you so much for having me Jeena.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:02] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Brittany Allison: [00:02:09] So as you mentioned I'm currently a transactional attorney at the law firm Greenberg Traurig. I focus on health care and private equity mergers acquisitions and other transaction and I came from a Healthcare Regulatory background. I've worked in-house as well as in law firms. I'm licensed in New York, Washington, D.C. and most recently in Florida. As far as who I am. I'm someone who values both my professional and my outside of work life. I'm someone who strives to make thoughtful and purposeful choices and to pursue success but also happiness and fulfillment. I'm also a diverse attorney and a child of immigrants and for fun I enjoyed venture traveling and being outdoors.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:54] Kerry started by chatting about how you go about intentionally creating a career that you enjoy that aligns with your skill sets and also gives you that sense of purpose and value. And that's a really big question. So I guess maybe to start you know at what point did you decide you know this is important to me I'm not going to just let life happen to me but I'm going to be very intentional about how I build a practice that I enjoy. I feel like a lot of lawyers don't really give much thought to that.

Brittany Allison: [00:03:29] I think that's exactly right. And I think for me when I was working at a previous law firm it was it was really kind of apparent that we should be thinking about moving forward in business development. You know how we can improve upon our careers. And it just it just kind of hit me that I should really be looking a little bit deeper and if I'm starting to have those conversations professionally I'm starting to have those conversations internally. I really wanted to make sure that I was moving in a direction that I wanted to take my career and that I felt like my career would with my personality with my skills that I would really be able to add value and I could see the kind of the career that I that I had in mind and take the direction.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:20] Q I would say more specifically about what that process looks like. Like I think it's one thing to say you know I have decided that having a career that enjoys is important to me. And so I've made those things a priority. But on a day to day or let's say a week to week or even month to month Hector like what doesn't. How does that look?

Brittany Allison: [00:04:43] So I started the process really just kind of making the LIST mentally and then making actual physical with of what I enjoyed what I did not enjoy as much the things that interested me the thing that excited me about law practice and some of the things that I was doing that I thought were purposeful and meaningful but did not really fit who I was or where I thought I could add the most value. So you know it's kind of an ongoing process and it is for me a day to day or week to week process to really kind of sit down with myself for maybe an hour a week depending on how busy I am on home and just say just check in with myself and recognize those feelings when for example I'm really excited when a deal closes or.

You know I really feel like I use my skills for effective communication throughout the field. It's a process of self-reflection that I think you know can is important to take the time out of your week to sit down and check in with yourself on those things and have that information where you want to take your practice going forward I think we don't always take the time out. You know the time out to sit down with ourselves and go over the things that we're doing sometimes it can kind of be like you're on one of those moving walkways and you just know where you're supposed to be going and you may have metrics for how you can get there and how you can succeed on the path that you're on. But you don't always take the time out to say is this the path I want to be on. Is this something that I'm actually enjoying is this something that I can actually see in terms of a direction from my career or am I just on that moving walkway.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:41] You know I often hear from bank law attorneys especially those that are more junior and I think sometimes it can be difficult to find that sense of meaning in them. Especially when you're on a big team and you're working on this huge mega deal so your portion of what you're working on might seem very mundane. Then it's hard to even see the whole picture in terms of how your work contributes to the larger project. So I'm curious if that's an experience that you've had and also how you go about finding meaning and you know in some of the more grindy air projects and I think a lot of lives just like that you know it's just very like grindy.

Brittany Allison: [00:07:28] Yeah I mean there is certain kind of days or weeks or months of the project where you may not feel kind of as inspired. But I think the way that you keep that motivation going at least for me I'll be kind of my personal experience is I really love the feeling of being on a team and reaching that finish point and kind of knowing that that's coming. And I think part of finding a practice that that fits your personality is you enjoy a lot of those day to day. And you also are able because you're so interested because you feel like it's a great fit you're able to engage kind of outside of the day today.

So you know you're able to take a few minutes out sit down with the shareholder and talk about when you think we'll get to closing or what do you think are some of the big issues that are still on the table or how do you think we're going to be able to solve this problem. Even if you're not the person doing that even if you're are a person, for example, drafting that language or bringing a deal over the finish line if you're engaged and you enjoy what you're doing you know there are those opportunities. And for me, I want to get for that kind of conversation. And you know that that certainly helps me to be motivated and to keep in perspective that. Sure I might not have the biggest role on a certain transaction but I have a role and I'm happy to be part of that team. And I'm interested to learn more about it.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:17] Either things that you do outside of work that also gives you that sense of meaning and purpose in life. I also have I know for me at least for the first at least a decade it was just all like kind of work. And as I got older I was like OK. Like I can't expect to work to fill all of those needs that I am a multidimensional human being and not all those other needs. You know creativity or you know that I have to have a sort of hobbies and other things that I do outside of work. So I'm curious how you balance that.

Brittany Allison: [00:09:59] Sure absolutely. I'm a nature lover. I recently moved back to Florida and South Florida. I love going to the beach. I love hiking. My last trip was to Colorado to go hiking kayaking in stand up paddleboard. I love getting outside I love being in nature. I also really love spending time with my friends my family and my partner and a lot of times most of the time those conversations have nothing to do with law practice you know and there were other things that we're interested in. So there definitely and know as I mentioned kind of at the beginning I really value my time outside of the office as well. Kind of focus on the focus on some other things and focus on my personal relationship.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:50] And they will sort of wrap things up but this question. And you know any now on top of the interview you mentioned that you identify yourself as a first attorney and I am one as well. Now I'm curious how you go about finding your voice or finding that sense of belonging or you know you're just your confidence is that they burst attorney or if you have advice for other papers attorneys out there.

Brittany Allison: [00:11:17] I thought a lot about this one because you know you hear a lot about things like impostor syndrome. And I've certainly experienced kind of some of those attacks. And I think everyone goes through moments of insecurity. So I think kind of my advice here is twofold. If you're worried that you can't really relate to someone else you know in a professional environment I have found that ironically enough focusing on the work really helps to start a conversation. So I may not be able to find commonality with someone else kind of just on the outset but I can only talk to that person about their practice.

[00:12:06] I can always talk to that person about what it is they're doing what it what it is they're interested in and you know if it's someone you interact with more closely or let's say you're on a transaction with you know you can talk to them about that. And I found that that helps to really open up the conversation and start to build that relationship. You know if you're a little bit nervous that you may not have a lot of things in common with that other individual I've just always found that helpful to come from that place because certainly you can both talk about what you're doing there you know and where you want to take your careers and kind of my second piece of advice. There also is too when you have those willing to really focus on your relationships outside of war. You know I have a strong support system to my friends and my family and my partner. And that really helps to keep things in perspective because a lot of times you know if you're at a big firm or here as an organization and there's a there's great sophisticated work being done. Sometimes you do worry.

[00:13:16] And my goodness the people but you can always count on our mom to remind you that you're better than she is. I mean at home and there you know you might be kind of a small fish in a big pond at work but outside of work people can remind you know you're actually great at this or you're actually really interested in and don't get kind of caught up in that environment where you're surrounded by people who are good at it because there's a larger environment where there are other people who you know have not focused on that don't have the same skills that and a lot of times they think you're great you know and I've just been able to anchor myself to my support system outside of work and also and also internally you know I had mentioned before when we spoke previously I believe in meditation a big proponent of meditation. I've found that it's helpful in stressful situations and I have found that help as a practice as a way of just checking in with yourself and talking to yourself and building yourself up when you need it. Those are really kind of the two pieces of advice I would have to give Yeah.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:38] I mean I certainly found I curious to hear how it's landed for you is having a regular mindfulness practice gets me out of that really self-destructive and negative way of thinking where I'm constantly thinking like oh I'm not good enough I'm not good enough or I'm not good as these other people especially in like a law firm you know there isn't often that tremendous amount of positive feedback. You know the people in your team might think you're great but they do not necessarily go around and you know consciously tell you how great they are. So I at least for me I found that I was able to when those voices pop up stepped back a little bit and say Is this objectively true or is this just my inner narrator or my inner critic talking and often it was that voice and that you know if I could truly sort of objectively look at the entirety of all the work that I've done and taken the good with the bad and because we had both rights that often I sort of underestimate the good work that I do and places where I do shine like those things just don't matter. It's almost like while I just got lucky by winning that motion or I just got you to know like it wasn't my own doing that. But to that result, versus if something goes wrong then I take it very personally then it's like oh it's because I messed up that we've lost that motion. So you know when you from your mindfulness practice how that helps you to shape it. You know just sort of working with the like in our voices.

Brittany Allison: [00:16:18] For me my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling I'm having. I kind of figured out a couple years ago that I wasn't so great at that, to begin with. You know I could tell I wasn't feeling great but I couldn't really articulate deeper what was going on. And my practice has really helped me to be able to identify right. It's what I'm feeling and kind of the next step from there is why I am feeling that way. Because as you mentioned things can certainly snowball when you get into that kind of negative mindset and you know all of a sudden everything that it was that is your fault. I eat a lot of really take the time to say what am I actually feeling what is actually making me feel that way. And as you mentioned is that true. You know. Is that really true?

[00:17:18] And remind me that there's a bigger perspective here. Maybe I made a mistake but maybe I did kind of saying well you know and maybe I'm not you know another big one for me is kind of dealing with learning curves. We don't all know everything you know. And I switched practice areas and there are certain things that I have to learn and I spend a little more time on the catch up to understand slowly just by nature of the fact that some of my colleagues have been doing it you know their whole careers and it's not something I engaged with as much. You know before my current position but I do give myself space to kind of remind myself. All right I may be learning that. Or you know trying to get better at that one thing. But you know what I think been great is the thriller thing. And I think those things provide value in these three ways. And even further I'm going to see if I can find opportunities to contribute that value. So that I feel like a meaningful member of the team even if there's one way. One place where I feel a little weak is not as strong as the rest of the team. I'm going to find a place where I know I can help push us along. And I think that that's part of the mindfulness practice that's part of what self-reflection practice where you just start to really identify the things that you feel like you're really good at or you are uniquely good at or you. You bring to a team.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:12] Well Brittany, it was so nice having you here. One final question for you. Before I let you go, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Brittany Allison: [00:19:25] Ah, that’s a very good question. To me, a resilient lawyer is someone who takes ownership of their career who is overcoming obstacles or challenges or naysayers whatever the case may be to pursue all the opportunities that they're interested in and build a career that is engaging and fulfilling for that individual. And where that individual can also provide value.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:55] Brittany thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation.

Brittany Allison: [00:20:00] Thank you so much, Jeena for having me.

Closing: [00:20:13] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Emily Markos on to talk about fighting anxiety and finding peace through mindfulness.

Emily graduated from Rutgers Camden School of Law in 2010. After graduation she clerked in the US District Court in Pennsylvania, and then spent 6 years as a general commercial civil litigator. In 2014 she became a mom, and in 2017 she left private practice to work for the Social Security Administration. She has recently incorporated a mindfulness practice in her life through yoga, and has found a lot of peace and happiness through that practice.

Topics Covered

• Yoga as a mindfulness practice, some misconceptions about yoga, and what to look for if you want to try yoga or if you are looking to deepen your existing practice.
• Understanding EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) and how it is used to help process and reprogram trauma.
• Some of the common causes of anxiety in lawyers, and discussion on coping skills that can be developed to manage that anxiety and find peace.
• Postpartum depression and anxiety, erasing the stigma and being open about it.
• Tips and suggestions to make time for things as a mom and lawyer.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

Mike Ethridge, attorney from Charleston, SC, champion of wellness for lawyers talks about his journey from burnout to wholeness.

Topics covered:

• What to do when you freeze
• How to recover from a difficult moment
• What is body wisdom?
• Ways to access the body wisdom

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

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Check out this episode!

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

In this episode, I am excited to have Heather Hubbard on to talk about her experience as a lawyer pioneering the yoga and wellness environment in Minneapolis.

Heather Hubbard is the founder and president of All Rise and host of the weekly podcast, Hustle & Flow. A former partner and practice group leader at an AmLaw 200 firm, Heather is focused on helping women and minorities rise in the legal profession. She does that through retreats, masterminds, online programs, and full-day strategy sessions. You can find out more at HeatherJoyHubbard.com.

Topics Covered

• Heather speaks on how she came about developing a yoga and mindfulness practice, and how it helps to center her when she feels overwhelmed at work.
• Different tips, strategies, and helpful tools to incorporate to help yourself and when working with clients, such as her "priority matrix" which she uses to help identify and delegate what work is the most important in the now.
• How the billable hour is backwards in terms of incentivizing taking a longer time on work and adding stress to the attorney/client relationship.
• Combatting the judgmental mind when meditating and fighting your inner perfectionist by being an advocate for yourself.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book ? Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Heather Hubbard: [00:00:01] Look at yourself, right. And look at that voice and say, okay if that's my opposing counsel, if I have to go to the judge, what is my argument in defense of this person, myself?

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today on another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am delighted to have Heather Hubbard, who is the founder and president of All Rise, and she hosts a weekly podcast called Hustle and Flow. And I'm really delighted to say that both of our podcasts made the "ABA 100 Best" list. I'm just so thrilled and I feel like I'm in such good company, so thanks for that. And she's a former partner and practice group leader at an AmLaw 200 firm. Heather is focused on helping women and minorities rise in the legal profession. She does that through retreats, masterminds, online programs, and all-day strategy sessions. And you can find out more about her work at heatherjoyhubbard.com. Heather, welcome to the show. I'm so thrilled to have you here.

Heather Hubbard: [00:01:35] Thank you so much. I've been following your podcast for so long, it's fun to be interviewed.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:42] Really? Yes. Yeah and I definitely feel like we now have this little group of amazing women lawyer podcasters. So I'm just so happy to be part of this community.

Heather Hubbard: [00:01:56] Absolutely.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:58] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do.

Heather Hubbard: [00:02:06] Sure. I mean I guess 30 seconds, I kind of feel like I am a rebel rouser. I bring the feminine and the masculine to the table and it's all in an effort to completely turn the legal industry on its head. So I'm just really here to help attorneys, one attorney at a time, learn to practice law in a way that is authentic and fulfilling to them.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:36] So when you say you want to turn the legal profession on its head, what does that mean to you? What are some of the specific task or specific things that you're trying to work on?

Heather Hubbard: [00:02:49] Sure. I mean part of it is I do come from kind of a big law background, but I think that these issues permeate every part of our industry. And that is that we follow this really, really masculine model. And we know that it's very slow to change, so in some ways I think we are the most antiquated profession out there. And sometimes what that means is we think in very black and white terms, we aren't willing to change. We think that you have to kill yourself to be a good lawyer, we think that it's okay to be stressed out all the time, its okay to not be nice to other lawyers. You know, I just think that there's just this belief that this is the way it's always been. And I just feel like that is over, and it's time. We're seeing this in a lot of different areas in our society and culture, but I'm here to empower attorneys to you know, how do break through that glass ceiling? That looks different for everyone, but it's time for us to shift the culture. It's just no longer acceptable to be the norm. And so, that's why I do work with law firms but I mostly work with individuals because I'm not here to convince people that things need to change. I'm here to empower those that want the change, to figure out how to do that on their own.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:27] Yeah, and I think that's so true. And I definitely feel and I know to be true, the things that you're talking about. We are ready for a change as a profession, and it is changing. Not as quickly as I would like it to, but I'm also not known for my patience. Yeah so I so appreciate the work that you do, and it's just been so great actually to have a community of very strong and powerful women lawyers who are sort of speaking out against the very masculine culture that permeates throughout our profession. And I think that we need a balance of both, and it's not to say that we want to exclude men. But just look at the numbers in 100 and 200 law firms in terms of equity partners and who manages those firms, and you know just like I mean we can just go on and on and on about the ways in which there's still just so much inequality that persists throughout our profession.

Heather Hubbard: [00:05:35] Absolutely, I was just going to say. And I definitely cater to women and under-represented attorneys, but I don't exclude white men. And I always say, I actually think there are a lot of white men out there that really want a more balanced approach as well. So I think we've got to bring them into the equation so that they too feel empowered to push back against the patriarchy, or however you want to say it.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:05] Yeah, I've been having more of these conversations (and I'm using my air quotation marks here) with the middle-aged white male lawyer. And I think there is a yearning to practice in a way that is more aligned with their authentic selves. And to give vocabulary and tools around it. And I also think a lot of men are interested in being allies and actually trying to create a more balanced and more inclusive workforce, but they don't really know how to go about doing it. So giving them actual tools and strategies for being an ally. Because I think it's actually much more powerful when it's a group of ten lawyers sitting around talking about who is going to be promoted to a partner, you know if it's a male lawyer saying hey look, everyone we're considering are other white males and we really need to broaden our circle. And maybe even there are people that we're not considering that we should be. Rather than always having that responsibility land on the women in that group, or the person of color in that group.

Heather Hubbard: [00:07:15] Absolutely, absolutely. And I think when we talk about balance or being more authentic, I think because of the role that many white men are in they actually have the opportunity to go ahead and start pushing those boundaries a little bit themselves, and basically modeling for others what can be accomplished. So I think that's another great way for them to be allies, is to use their privilege to start pushing for what we all want as a whole in the industry. Because I think that's where we can start to have more momentum and faster; because I too don't have much patience.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:56] Yeah, I think that's really one of the good things about lawyers is that we get stuff done. But it can also cut both ways. So I know both you and I have lots of different things in common, but one of them being mindfulness. So I'm curious, how did that journey to mindfulness start? And I'm curious how that sort of helped you in terms of your own life and your career.

Heather Hubbard: [00:08:29] Sure. So it started when I was practicing law. And it's a bit of a long story so I'm going to make it super short. But I was doing great in my career, but started to have one personal crisis after another pop up for me; to the point where I just had this breaking point and knew that something had to change. And I didn't know what that was, but for the first time I was willing and open to receiving and learning new things. So as I was exploring that piece of how do I go through all of these personal issues and deal with these personal issues, one of the things I stumbled upon was mindfulness. And it made the biggest difference for me. Not only did it help me deal with what was going on in my personal life, I realized how reactive I was in my professional life.

[00:09:30] I mean oh my goodness, I had no idea how dysfunctional I was or my brain was at that moment. And when I was able to apply that to my professional life as well, my life got so much easier, right? Nothing externally changed it was all internal, and people noticed.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] What's different about you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:10:02] And I would say meditation and mindfulness. And then they would look at me like I was an alien with three heads and many times they had no more questions. Or like, okay she's gone to the dark side. But it was true, it was true. I suddenly did not have nearly as much stress and anxiety. And you know, it's kind of embarrassing to admit how reactive I used to be. But maybe that's the norm, I don't know. But yeah, it's had a huge impact on my life and I bring that to the table and everything that I do and everything I teach. So and I think that's part of being this rebel rouser, right? Because I'm talking about business strategy, but I'm also doing it in a holistic way. And that is a challenge to the status quo.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:05] Yeah, yeah. You know, so often when I talk to people that practice mindfulness, it's kind of hard to have a conversation about mindfulness without talking about meditation. I'm curious you know, what does your daily or if you have a regular meditation practice, what does that look like? And more importantly, how do you find time for it?

Heather Hubbard: [00:11:25] So when I started meditating.. and by the way, I had tried to meditate on and off over the years. And I was one of those people that said that does not work for me, I cannot do that. But it was because I never had a good teacher, and I didn't realize how many options there were. To me, meditation was just trying to turn off my thoughts and just sitting there in silence without anything going on. But when I then started learning about mindfulness, I started following, it's UCLA. It's "Mindfulness at the Hammer," and it's a podcast now but it used to be on iTunes U. And so it was free, and they're lectures and they're guided meditations. And they last about on average 30 minutes, some are an hour, some are a little bit shorter. And so every morning.. because keep in mind when I was going through all of these personal issues, I had a lot of pain, immediate pain that I wanted solved. I wanted it to be eased and released.

[00:12:38] So in the morning before I would go to work, every single morning I would listen to one of their lectures and guided meditations. And I found that guided meditations work so much better for me than anything else. And I still use a few different techniques, just kind of depending on my intention. But if I'm ever busy and distracted and think I can't quiet my mind, I personally do better with a guided meditation where I'm actively focusing on a concept or a storyline. So that's I started it.

[00:13:18] And one of the other things I did, and I always encourage people to do, we all have five minutes at lunch. And we generally get crazy by lunch, so it's easy to just reset. I used to use guided meditations on that too. Now I have found that I prefer to do my meditation in the afternoon, so I generally do it once I get tired, which is generally around 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. for me. And I now have on my iPad.. And by the way I work from my home, so I have this area set up just for meditation. And I have my iPad there and it's already got my favorite play lists, whether it's just music and I'm going to meditate with that music or whether it's guided meditations or whether they're just for me, spiritual inspiring lectures. Which in my mind, is a bit of a mindfulness practice in and of itself because I’m focused just on that, and trying to be mindful and intentional?

[00:14:25] But that's kind of the way I approach it now. Now when I get really busy, I tend to want to skip that time and I'm not..

Jeena Cho: [00:14:33] It's like when you most need it is when you least want to do it.

Heather Hubbard: [00:14:37] Yes. So I try to force myself to do it, no matter what. And what I say when I'm like super busy is, you've got ten minutes. There is nothing that you're going to accomplish in ten minutes that can't be accomplished later. And the truth is, when I get in that crazy-busy zone I lose perspective. I forget what's real and what's not real. And I create a story in my head that all of these things have to get done or the world is going to stop spinning. And I'll come up for that ten minutes that I knew I didn't have, and it generally turns into longer because within the first five minutes I realize I'm spinning wheels and I'm creating stories that are not real. I don't have to get everything done.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:22] Yeah, so true. Sometimes when I talk to lawyers about mindfulness or meditation they have this sense like, you know I just have so many things on my to-do list and I like literally cannot add a single thing to my to-do list. Or you know it could be just any other thing, like practicing self-care or going for a walk, or whatever those activities for you might be that really sort of nourishes and recharges us. When you're working with those lawyers, what kind of tips or strategies or sort of helpful tools, or just something that you've found to be helpful either for yourself or working with clients?

Heather Hubbard: [00:16:01] Well, two things. I mean one, I think research shows that when our brain is fried, we are not as efficient or as productive. So it is a lie to think that we don't have extra time, because if you actually spend the extra time on the self-care or the mindfulness or the meditation, it actually helps you have a sharper mind when you are working. And so I know that's counter-intuitive, but you don't need as much time as you think if you have a clear, sharp mind. And you and I know from the research you know, mindfulness and especially the mindful meditation practice, it changes the brain. It changes how you respond and react. You're going to be able to perform at better levels if you're taking the time to take care of yourself.

[00:16:53] The other part of that is lawyers are terrible at time management. And when I'm talking about time management, it's generally in the form (and this is related to mindfulness) of they are so reactive that they don't know the difference between priorities and what has to get done versus just people-pleasing and putting out fires all day long. So I generally try to help people with that first and foremost, because the vast majority of what they're doing they don't have to do. Either it can work itself out on its own, it can be delegated. I mean so many of us just have open-door policies, we pick up the phone any time it rings, we have our email up so we see everything that comes in.

[00:17:42] We're multitasking and we completely lose track of our days because we're there for them; and that has to shift. That has to shift and you'll find that you don't actually have to do all those things for all those people, and you won't lose clients. And if you do lose any, it's probably the ones that you didn't need anyway.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:06] Yeah. When you say that has to shift, what does that shift look like? Going from this multitasking, constantly-frazzled state to right? What's the there?

Heather Hubbard: [00:18:20] Yeah, so part of it is that you decide you are in control of your schedule. And one, you're not going to show up and say I'm a lawyer, I have no control of my schedule. So that's step number one, is just recognizing that that's not even true. Maybe that's a story we're telling yourself, and you're going to not follow what everyone says is the norm. You’re going to say, well what if it's different? What if I could do this differently? So one of the steps is to start to just notice what your day looks like. Do you have your e-mail up all the time? And if you do, can you not let it pop up? Can you just respond to e-mails once an hour?

[00:19:07] We'll start with baby steps, like you can only pull your e-mail up for the last ten minutes of an hour. And it's going to completely stress you out, because you told yourself if you don't respond immediately it's an issue. What I say to that is, well what about when you're in a deposition, or what about when you're in trial, or what about when you're with a client? You don't answer your e-mails then, you don't answer phone calls then. And no one fires you. It's just because you're sitting at your desk and you're available that you assume people know that.

[00:19:39] So that's one piece. Another is, and I actually have a podcast episode coming out soon called "Scheduling Secrets" and I go through some of this. But you have to be able to identify if something's a priority or if it can be delegated. And I generally use what I call the priority matrix on that, is just training people to start to identify where things fall, and treating them accordingly. So it's really about just getting out of the firefighting mode. And for people that say they love to firefight, I'm always like okay you can be an ER doctor but you have to have a support team that looks like an ER room. ER doctors don't do all the work, they're just trouble-shooting. So where are your residents, where are your nurses? Where are the other physicians that are following through? Because you can't do both. You can't be spotting all the issues and doing all the work. And I think that's where attorneys get into a lot of trouble.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:47] Yeah, yeah. And also just the way that our profession is structured, right? This idea that we literally trade .1 hour of our time for a certain dollar amount. So there is this constant pressure to just bill that extra one hour, regardless of the quality of those hours that we're billing. So I think it's really just sort of ripe for all of these dysfunctions that we're talking about.

[00:21:12] And I often think, if we can just get rid of the billable hour we'd solve so many of these issues. But somehow as a profession I don't think we've hacked that problem yet. I've been practicing for 15 years and I remember they were talking about it when I graduated from law school in 2003. So, yeah I do think.. how much of it do you thing has to do with the billable hour? Just so many of the dysfunctions that we experience as lawyers. And you know, when you talk about sort of turning the legal profession on its head and shifting the paradigm, is that part of the conversation that you're having?

Heather Hubbard: [00:21:45] Absolutely. I mean, the billable hour.. anytime you're swapping just time for money anyway it's not the best business model. There are a lot of problems with the billable hour, but one of the things is if you were being efficient and really had the client’s goals in mind, you really shouldn't be getting compensated based on how long it takes you. Because you're basically being incentivized to spend way too long on these matters. And if you ever hear people talk about attorneys, they're like, "They can't give me any predictability, my bill changes every month. I never know what's going on.

[00:22:30] And then attorneys say, well we can't predict that. That's just the nature of our business. And I'm calling B.S. on that, because if you go look at any other business, they figure it out. They don't get to have that excuse, they have to track the data. They have to make best guesses and yeah, they lose sometimes. You know, lawyers are funny; we want guarantees. Like I never want to lose any money, if I've spent this much time I want.. And it's like, well what kind of business runs that way? And you can have that safety and security, but you're losing out on the upside by not being innovative and thinking of your firm like a business. I mean that's honestly the thing that probably drives me more crazy than the billable hour, is how firms do not run like businesses. They don't think like businesses, and I think they are just leaving so much money on the table by doing that, and they're losing on the balance piece.

[00:23:28] But I do find a lot of women (and this is a bit stereotypical but I do find it to be true), because they're juggling so many things they actually want to be efficient. They're super-efficient in the way that they approach things, and a lot of them are really great at organization and so they can just knock things out. But the problem is, at the end of the day they still have to bill a certain amount of hours if they're in a firm that requires that. So they're not actually being valued for being more efficient. And they can't find the balance they're looking for because at the end of the day, the firm only cares about how many hours they billed. So I totally agree with you that it's not a great system.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:17] Yeah, I was having a conversation with a partner at a law firm recently and he goes, "You know, I think if I were to re-design the system, I would actually do my billable hour depending on the time of the day." And he's like, "You know, my hourly rate from like 7 a.m. to like 10:00 a.m. would be a thousand dollars and it would tier down from there." And then he said, after three o'clock I should be paying them to do any work. And I thought, that actually makes sense, right? Because why is it that you bill the exact same amount of money whether you are sort of at your peak time, when you're in that state of flow at like, seven or eight a.m., if that's sort of your peak time for you. Versus at like four, when you're doing your worst work. So many inefficiencies, and it really drives me crazy how we think about work.

[00:25:12] And I think that's also one of the reasons why so many women are just leaving the big law practice, because they're just like no, this is not an efficient way to do work, and I'd rather go in-house or doing something completely different. So I really feel like addressing some of these underlying issues is going to be key in terms retention issues too.

Heather Hubbard: [00:25:32] Absolutely. So many firms blame women leaving on children, and I just don't buy that. I don't believe that. It's certainly not really what comes up for the women that I'm working with, or when I talk to women in general, or firms where they're very aware of what's going on with retention issues. It's that they're so frustrated with the system, and that firms won't work with them to create an environment that's just better overall. That's the issue. And they say, well we've got flex schedules or we do this or we do that, and it's like yeah but you're still trying to create this structure where you value them less and you see them as less than. And that doesn't work.

[00:26:19] I mean you've got high achievers that want to be seen as doing great work and bringing value to the table. So as soon as you start making these trade-offs it's like you're just trying to make concessions, and that's how you see them, that's how you view them. That's how you compensate them. As opposed to saying, maybe they just have a better way of doing things. And if we allow them to come to the table from the perspective of, we're going to try to do this for everyone and figure out what's the best way to approach this for clients and attorneys, I swear they could actually make more money and all be happier. I don't think it's a trade-off, I just think they're terrible at business.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:07] Yeah, and I think the billable hours, it's something that no one actually really likes. The clients don't like it, the attorneys don't like it. It perplexes me why we are still struggling with this.

Heather Hubbard: [00:27:22] It's kind of like changing the time, I've said that we could probably start to bring the country together if we all agree just to get rid of the whole Daylight Savings Time snafu every fall and spring. I think we can all get on board.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:40] Yeah, the Daylight Savings Time drives me crazy too. So what are some of the mindsets that you bring into your training and programs? You really talk a lot about sort of changing your mindset. Because of course that's sort of the only thing you can control, is your responses and your mindset and how you you're thinking and viewing things. And I know you talk a lot about that on your podcast, so when you're working with lawyers what does that look like?

Heather Hubbard: [00:28:06] Yeah, so that is the first thing that I start with no matter what I'm doing. So for example, I have a career clarity online program, and that's the very first thing we talk about. We talk about mindset, and we talk about how having the right mindset is going to impact the results you get on the program you're having, as you go through the program. And as you're answering the questions and thinking about what you want. And when my retreat starts, that's our very first session. We talk about mindset and we talk about stories. And you know, the neuroscience and mindfulness aspects.

[00:28:45] For example, I did a presentation yesterday. It was only 55 minutes, and it was about goal-setting. But the very first five minutes, we talked about mindset. So for me, I'm not going to start a conversation, start a program, start coaching, anything, without talking about mindset first. Because without it you're not going to get the results that you want. I'm a highly competitive person. I am super results-oriented. So I always say, look I'm doing this for you. And I am, because I want you to get the most out of this and you have to start with mindset. And you know, people push back. They're like, oh do we have to do this? And I'm like, yeah you do.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:30] Well it takes a lot of work to look inside, because I think it's so much easier to just be like, no no no no no, your job is to help me fix everybody else. Which is what I often get when I'm teaching mindfulness to lawyers. It's like no, you're supposed to help me learn how to get that attorney to be better. Or you're supposed to help me so I can come back and have the perfect response to every annoying thing that somebody else says. And it's like, no I'm sorry.

Heather Hubbard: [00:29:56] Well it's interesting, on the career clarity one, on that program people are like, hey can we jump straight to what are my options? And I'm like, no we've got a lot more work to do before we get there. And they're like, oh gosh. But this is going to matter. And by the end, they're like I am so glad that you forced me to do that work because I would have had a totally different answer had I not done it. And the thing is, it would have been wrong. Like it would have been under this false pretense, because you get the answer that you think is right. But the truth is, it's not because it's not really at the core of what you want. It's just what you think is the safe answer.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah that's so true. And everything you're saying is so true, just in my own experience and in my own life, also having worked with lawyers.

Heather Hubbard: [00:30:56] I mean I think your listeners probably know this already, but if you were the kind of person that tends to say that you can't meditate, I highly encourage you to keep trying. Because it's totally doable once you find what works for you.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:17] Yeah and it's really just about like showing up, right? It's like show up every day and do it really, really badly; give yourself permission to do it as badly as you possibly can. There's such this expectation that I have to do it perfectly, and if I can't do it perfectly then I might well not even try. And I find that that actually bleeds into so many different arenas for lawyers. We're sort of saturated in that thinking, like I'm not even going to try unless I know I can do it perfectly.

Heather Hubbard: [00:31:48] We are such perfectionists, and I am convinced that that is my life-long lesson. Like when I am 98 years old I will still be working on that one, and I think that's a pretty common trait for lawyers.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:03] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's such an important thing to remember, is that this is not something any one of us are going to perfect today or tomorrow. That it's really a life-long journey, and just really taking a kinder stance towards yourself, it's so key. And I think we're sort of really trained, hyper-focused and sort of motivating ourselves with the whip, and we don't often realize like hey, there is this other method that typically works better, so let's try that.

Heather Hubbard: [00:32:37] Yeah, I mean the non-judgmental piece is so important. And often I find when people are learning about mindfulness for the first time, especially attorneys, the non-judgmental piece is the biggest one for them. Because we are so judgmental of ourselves and the way we're doing a meditation, or anything else.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:59] Thoughts or suggestions on how to sort of quiet that inner critic, that sort of naysayer or saboteur that's saying you're doing this poorly and that you might as well just not try. Or whatever that inner critic might be saying, and doing the practice despite those narratives.

Heather Hubbard: [00:33:22] So one of the things I encourage lawyers to do is to actually step in and be an advocate. We're really good at being advocates for others, so I always say notice first and foremost that that voice is not real. It is just a voice that is not you, and there can be another voice that's louder, and you can be in control of that voice. And I want you to look at yourself and look at that voice and say, okay if that's my opposing counsel, if I have to go to the judge, what is my argument in defense of this person, myself? Right?

[00:34:05] And sometimes it's a lot easier to look at it from that perspective, because you're not personally attached and you can step away. And you can see things a little bit more objectively. And so I'm like, are you going to lose this argument or not? And then attorneys get pretty good about being able to make the argument, but I ask them to write it down. I just think that you feel it more, and sometimes we need to go back and look at it to remind ourselves, okay objectively, what did my lawyer have to say on my behalf?

Jeena Cho: [00:34:40] Yeah. I love that practice, I'm totally going to steal that one from you. Yeah, and I often think in the context of working with thinking hours. And that not every thought is fact, you know just because your brain somehow created this set of thoughts does not mean it's based on reality or that it's true. But yeah, I love that idea. Just like, what would you do if you were defending yourself against a jury?

Heather Hubbard: [00:35:15] And some people, right.. It's like well okay, if someone was saying that about your child or if someone was saying that about your best friend, what would be your response? So sometimes I just think we have to get into that parental, authoritative, lawyer role to take care of ourselves.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:33] Yeah, I so agree with you. Heather thank you so much for being with me this morning, I really appreciate it. For the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about your work or interested in working with you, what are some of the best ways to get a hold of you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:35:51] So the best way is just to go to my website. It's heatherjoyhubbard.com. And you can kind of see what I do offer. And I have a "Contact Me" form on there, so that is the best way to reach out.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:06] Perfect. And Heather my final question is always this, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:36:18] To me, being a resilient lawyer is having the courage to stand in what you know to be true. So it's really about looking at yourself, what you want, where you want to go, and blocking out the rest. Not letting society, not letting the legal industry tell you what you should be doing or how you should be doing it. But being resilient enough to say, you know what I can make these decisions on my own. And I can thrive on my own. So that's really what a resilient lawyer looks like to me.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:57] Heather, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time out of your very busy day to share your wisdom and knowledge with me and the audience. I so appreciate it.

Heather Hubbard: [00:37:09] Thank you so much Jeena. It's been such a pleasure.

Closing: [00:37:18] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Megan Zavieh on to talk about mental health and well-being, and how to pick up on symptoms and handle yourself appropriately.

Megan Zavieh is a lawyer for lawyers, saving careers through attorney discipline defense. She also advises bar applicants on moral character issues and takes moral character appeals to trial. Megan is the creator of The Playbook: The California Bar Discipline System Practice Guide, the only practice guide for defending discipline cases in California. The Playbook is an innovative online platform through which self-represented state bar respondents can meet each other, obtain sample court filings, and access the practice guide.

In addition to defending lawyers, Megan also advises them when they want to expand their practices in new business models or through new methods of delivering legal services. She is also a speaker on legal ethics and a prolific writer. Her work can be found on Lawyerist, Attorney at Work, and her own blog CaliforniaStateBarDefense.com.

Topics Covered

• The spectrum of mental health issues that plague lawyers, from addiction to depression and more. She also delves into the emotional trauma and baggage that comes with being an effective lawyer.
• Telltale signs of mental health issues and how mental health issues are sometimes handled within the attorney discipline system (sometimes "help" is worse than not seeking it).
• How mental health symptoms begin to show at work and how you can stop the spread of problems before it gets too bad for you and your clients. She also talks on thinking about treating time for mental wellness as an investment: a poor mental state can lead to a higher risk of losing clients or malpractice which can have detrimental effects on your career.
• Do's and Don'ts when facing disciplinary action, and resources for attorneys facing a mental health crisis.

For more information on Megan, find her at the following links:

Twitter
Blog
Podcast

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Jeena Cho: [00:00:02] Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of The Resilient Lawyer Podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Megan Zavieh, who is a lawyer for lawyers. She is saving careers through attorney discipline defense. She also advises bar applicants on moral character issues and takes moral character appeals to trial. Megan is a creator of The Playbook: The California Bar Discipline System Practice Guide, the only practice guide for defending discipline cases in California. She is a speaker on legal ethics and a prolific writer.

[00:00:39] Before we get into the interview, in case you haven't heard by now, the Mindful Pause program is up and running and going out into the universe. It's a 31-day program to help you develop and cultivate a mindfulness practice. Every module is just six minutes long for the very busy lawyers out there, and I'm sure Megan and I will chat about the importance of maintaining our mental well-being. Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Megan. Megan, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Megan Zavieh: [00:01:25] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:27] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do.

Megan Zavieh: [00:01:34] Well what I do is I help lawyers who are facing bar discipline, that's the biggest part of what I do. I also deal with the fallout of personal crises of lawyers through, whether it's a moral character issue, when a lawyer tries to move into another state, or simply a discipline problem or trying to get reinstated after a discipline problem that led to disbarment. But basically all of my work is about saving lawyer's careers, and so whatever facet of the discipline system or regulatory system they end up falling into, I try and help my colleagues come back from things that have plagued them.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] And what are some of the common issues that you see that plague lawyers?

Megan Zavieh: [00:02:22] Well one of the biggest ones is depression. And that's one that we do not talk about enough, if you ask me. A lot of our fellow lawyers suffer from it. It's also not always necessarily clinical depression, but burnout. I tend to put them in one category, but they're not synonymous. But the overwork and the lack of taking care of themselves, which leads to lawyers being overburdened. There's also a huge financial component to that. Lawyers who have struggled to maintain their practices profitably end up sort of in a downward spiral. And that's a very common thing in my cases, where lawyers were financially struggling so they took work they really shouldn't have. Maybe they couldn't handle the work for whatever reason, but the finances are why they took it. Then they fall off their duties, not being able to fulfill what they need to do for their clients, which leads to depression and other psychological problems. Which leads them to fall even further behind on their clients, ultimately leading to discipline.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:30] So how does that cycle typically begin? I don't know if you're sort of involved with the lawyers early enough to be able to say, but is it that they feel overworked and then that leads to depression, or is it that they're already suffering from depression, therefore they can't handle their caseload?

Megan Zavieh: [00:03:49] I think a lot of us, its depression caused by the profession. So some certainly come into the profession already struggling, you know particularly military veterans who are suffering from PTSD who then get into law, which is incredibly stressful. And the two don't mix well. But I think an awful lot, they begin with profession-related problems. So for example, if you practice in a particularly emotional and stressful area, the substance of the work can be the source of the original problems. Family law certainly comes to mind in that respect. If you are daily dealing with child custody issues, perhaps child abuse issues, some really deep emotional problems that your clients are suffering from, it's hard not to internalize that. Being a good lawyer requires us to internalize it to a certain degree. And so a lot of times I see lawyers who were in that kind of practice area, who started suffering from depression definitely derived from the work. Others, it's the work load. You know, we kill ourselves for our clients sometimes. The number of hours we'll take on, the number of cases we'll take on, the fear of not having another case come so you take one more, even though you really don't have the capacity for one more.

[00:05:21] So the profession, not so much substance-wise but procedure-wise, dumps onto lawyers too much sometimes, more than we can handle and that can trigger the breakdowns, the burnout, and you know ultimately the depression.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:37] I think it's so interesting the way that lawyers are trained and taught that despite whatever your clients may be going through, a child custody issues or some horrific injury if you're a personal injury lawyer, that we're supposed to be robots. That if we allow the clients to impact us in any way, like I meet with a client, the client tells me this horrendous story and now I can't stop thinking about the kid that my client lost or whatever it may be, that somehow we're like bad lawyers. Thoughts about healthy ways of coping with all the emotional trauma that comes with the territory of being a lawyer and practicing?

Megan Zavieh: [00:06:24] Well, I think that we do have to empathize and relate to our clients on an emotional level. If we don't, for one thing we are not as effective as lawyers, but we turn ourselves off emotionally when we're too robotic. When you're dealing with something that taps into your human side, that really gets under your skin emotionally, but you insist it won't and you're actually battling your natural inclination, I think you're doing more harm than good. You actually end up in an emotional state where you don't feel anymore. And when you don't feel, that leads to depression. I mean right there, if you talk to someone who's seriously depressed, they will frequently say things like, "I don't feel anything, and I don't feel pleasure. And now I don't even feel pain anymore."

Well I think that as lawyers, if we tell ourselves we're not supposed to feel, that we're not supposed to feel compassion or emotion relating to our client's underlying issues, then we're just setting ourselves up to become like that; to become robots who don't feel. And that seeps into your personal life, you know your spouse isn't going to be very happy with you if you can't feel anymore. It just spirals, you know a downward spiral in so many ways. So I think that the first step really has to be acknowledging that it's okay and even beneficial to feel when it comes to your clients. Let yourself take on some of their emotional burden.

Megan Zavieh: [00:07:54] I still relate back to this article, and I think I mention it probably more frequently than Sam Glover ever intended for anyone to.  But Sam wrote a piece on Lawyerist years ago that had to do with why lawyers are not overpaid. And the thrust of the article was that we take on our client's problems; we take them on as our own, we lose sleep at night, and we now are more effective as council, we help them by them not having to worry as much because someone else is taking it on. And I love that idea, but it has to also be done in a healthy way. You have to have some emotional boundaries for yourself, and that's a healthy practice. So admit that you need to take on some of their burden. Admit that it's okay to have those emotions when it comes to your client, but then you need to set some boundaries. If you find yourself obsessing as if it really were your life, you've probably gone too far. So you need healthy outlets and I think we need people to talk to about this. So that would be my second thing, is finding the boundary. And the third thing, finding an outlet.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:04] When you say setting boundaries, what does setting healthy boundaries actually look like on a day-to-day basis? What does the actual practice of setting boundaries look like?

Megan Zavieh: [00:09:18] Well I think a lot of it comes down to being very mindful and present. And so I think a huge boundary that we have to establish is when we are at work and when we are not. And you'll hear me say in other contexts that the line between work and home is incredibly blended now. My work travels with me; you will find me sitting at the gym while my kids work out on my computer or on the phone for work. So there's not a physical barrier anymore, it's not that kind of a boundary. But there has to be an emotional one. You've got to find a way where you say to yourself, "Right now I'm not at work. And so this particular client's problem that I have been ruminating on all day, that I have been working on, that I have been feeling this compassion for the client and really working hard to solve this problem for them, I can't think about it right now." And to me the way that you do that isn't a negative view of, I'm not going to focus on that. It's a matter of being present and saying, I am going to focus on where I am now; I'm cooking dinner with my family, I'm eating dinner with my family, I'm putting my children to bed. I'm at the gym and I'm focusing on my dead lifts, whatever it is. Finding a way to be present, and I think that's a lot of the stuff that you talk about with mindfulness. Finding a way to be present by itself creates that emotional boundary, so that you're not allowing the stress of work to constantly nag at you.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:00] And also, I think it's important to just say that it's not an easy thing to do, you're making dinner for your family and your brain is thinking about your client John and all the stuff that he went through, and you may feel sadness or whatever, the whole range of emotions. It's kind of hard to be like, okay brain we're cooking, so let's focus on the cooking.

Megan Zavieh: [00:11:25] That's true. It's not easy, but if you never even think about it, if you never say to yourself, I want to try and be more present, I want to try and establish a boundary in my head and my heart for when I'm at work and when I'm not, then it'll just seep in all the time. And you'll be cooking and you'll be thinking about clients, and you'll somehow probably think its good, that you're a good lawyer because you're so devoted, and you don't even realize that what you're doing is harmful to you. That you've crossed that line from how effective advocate because you care into lawyer setting themselves up for burnout because they never step away.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:07] Yeah. What are some telltale signs of mental health issues that someone may be struggling with?

Megan Zavieh: [00:12:15] Well judging from the discipline cases that I see, which are usually things that have festered long enough that someone's been either really harmed or at least very angered to reach the point of a discipline case. If we go back in those cases and trace the relationship between the attorney and the client and see where it started to break down, some of the biggest warning signs are when client communication falls off. And I'll see it repeatedly, where the lawyer maybe hasn't even made a substantive mistake yet, but they stop returning phone calls, they stop communicating with the client. I think that tends to happen before the real misconduct happens. So for example, I'll have a client who agreed to represent one of their clients and they're hired, they start to do the work. The deadline is still three weeks out, whatever the first project is they haven't missed a deadline yet, they haven't screwed it up. But the client calls and the lawyer says, "I just don't want to talk to this person." And maybe they don't even really know why, but probably the reason why is that something's going on with them where they're starting to burnout, or they're starting to suffer from early symptoms of depression. And they don't return the calls.

[00:13:42] And then eventually because they haven't returned the calls, it's gotten to be too long and now if I call them back, they're going to be so angry. I really don't want to hear it, so I'm still not going to call them back. Then the deadline comes closer, and as the deadline comes closer they go, I really need to talk to the client to do the work, to meet the deadline but I don't want to talk to the client because now they've been calling me for two weeks and I haven't called them back. And so then it just keeps going.

[00:14:07] So I would say that initial failure to communicate or unwillingness to communicate is a really big early warning sign, that some lawyers maybe can be aware of on their own, or if you have people in your office who work with you or even an answering service that maybe you let keep tabs on your phone logs, that you actually returned calls or not. Those are warning signs that someone, an outside person might notice. Another warning sign would be financial warning signs. If you start to see the firm finances are falling off and you're not making payroll or you're not making rent, and this unfortunately is very common in small solo practices that literally go month of invoices to month of invoices; because you're not paycheck to paycheck, because we don't have them. That's a really big warning sign as far as mental health goes, even though they might seem not directly related, when the financial pressures get to be too great, lawyers start to fall into depression.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:21] So if you're an outsider and let's say this is a colleague of yours that's starting to miss deadlines. Maybe you referred a case to this attorney and now the client calls back and says, "You know she's not really doing what she should." What can you do as an outsider to try to help this attorney, or is that even really possible?

Megan Zavieh: [00:15:45] Is it really difficult. I would say it's not impossible, but it's extremely difficult. Oftentimes the lawyers who are suffering are not willing to admit it. If finances are a part of it, they are not willing to give up any work that they have because they're afraid of having to refund money or give money to a new lawyer to take over a case. So they will deny that there's a problem. It's really difficult. I would say that the ones who I've seen be effective in approaching someone have been very close friends who have approached with a tremendous amount of love and patience and have often also approached with financial solutions. I've seen it where a lawyer was suffering from severe mental illness and their bar license was on the chopping block, they were going to be done. And friends approached with a tremendous amount of care and a financial solution to obtain help for the depressed lawyer.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:59] Yeah. I can imagine that can feel very threatening, for someone to come to you and be like, you're not..yeah. I remember I worked at a firm where we all knew that one of the attorneys had a serious drinking problem, like if you wanted this attorney to do anything you knew you had to get him at like 8:00 or 9:00 AM because by after lunch he was going to be, not drunk but definitely intoxicated. And no one really did anything and it was just shocking to me. And of course as a baby lawyer, I didn't dare I say anything. But what do you do in those kinds of situations, where there's some sort of substance abuse?

Megan Zavieh: [00:17:45] It's so hard to help someone if they're not looking for you to help them. And you know, you think about especially substance abuse in families, where families have interventions to try and help someone. There are things you can do like that in a professional context, if you're close enough. If you're financially beholden to someone, such as a law firm partner and the other partner is putting you at risk; not only your income if they're falling off the job, but if they're putting you at risk. Such as the alcoholic lawyer right, they're putting the whole firm at risk because they are likely to commit malpractice. So in that situation, you sort of have the leverage to approach the person in I guess the intervention sort of sense and say, "We don't want to be your partner anymore if this is going to continue." So if there's a financial incentive I can see it being more effective. In just the, 'I'm really concerned about my friend, the lawyer,' it's tough. It's really tough to get someone to listen.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:52] You know, it always seems like there's this weird tension that happens in our profession where of course we should, and I even hesitate to say put our clients first, because it always seems like it's a choice between putting myself and my family first or putting my client first; as though somehow those two things are not intimately intertwined and interdependent. When I feel at my best physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, I'm actually able to be my best lawyer self. That there is no inherent conflict between the two, but it often feels like there is in the minds of so many lawyers. And I think part of that is because we bill by six minute increments, so there's this constant drive to bill more. So if I take an hour to go do my yoga class or go for a walk, then I'm somehow taking an hour away from my clients. Do you run into that mentality, and if you do how do you address it?

Megan Zavieh: [00:19:54] I definitely do run into that mentality. A lot of my clients bill by the hour, and so they'll have that same idea, "I had to take on this one more client, or I couldn't stop to do this healthy thing for myself because I had to get this done and earn that money." And this fee, and they equate like you said, taking an hour for a yoga class as well, that's $400 dollars an hour as my billing rate, so that's a $400 yoga class. And it's really not. I've tried a few different approaches to reach people, because with what I do I see the underbelly of the profession, right? One of my colleagues says that we're the trash collectors of the profession, because we're taking out all the bad stuff that happens to lawyers and we see all the worst sides of it. But I do sometimes try and get across to people that if you don't take that time, if you don't take care of yourself or find a way to separate work from home at times, to be present, to do all of these healthy things for your own sanity, then it's no longer going to be a $400 yoga class that you're going to be thinking about. You're going to be facing severe sanctions; you're going to be facing time away from work measured in months, not in one hour increments. A pretty small sanction from the State Bar Court would be a 30-day suspension, that's really on the low end of things. Think about what you earn in a month, stop thinking about what you earn in an hour and say, "Do I have the time to invest to keep myself healthy so I don't lose a month?"

[00:21:39] If you put it that way and you think about, that's not the one hour yoga class, it's a one month bit of work that you're going to miss if you're not healthy, I think the financial angle starts to change in the analysis.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:57] For the lawyers out there that maybe haven't committed some sort of malpractice but they can kind of sense they're on this trajectory, like maybe they just don't feel as enthusiastic about their life, maybe they just feel tired all the time and they just feel disengaged, or they don't feel that sense of aliveness, what are some things that they should consider doing in order to get help?

Megan Zavieh: [00:22:27] I definitely think taking stock of what they do in the course of a week for themselves is a very important question. I recently met with someone who is advising lawyers. She's a lawyer but not practicing, what she does is engage with other lawyers to consult and help them grow their business. We met for coffee and we had this great conversation about podcasting and about article writing and growing business. And at the end, it was the most amazing thing to me because no one's ever said this to me, she goes, "And after all that, what are you doing for you?" It was kind of out of the blue because I wasn't expecting it, it wasn't part of the conversation's thrust. And when she said it I go, "Oh okay.." and I did have an answer, and I was happy I had an answer, and she was surprised that I had an answer. But I thought yeah, that's something that lawyers need to be doing. They need to look at their week and say, is there any point during that week that I do something that's just for me? Not for my kids, it's not for my clients; it's not for my law partner. Something that is really just for them.

[00:23:39] And so if they're starting to feel that sense of burnout, the lack of caring, starting to just not love what they're doing anymore. I think the very first step is look at what you're doing for yourself, and if there's nothing or there's not enough, pick something and try it. Find an hour of every week where you're going to do something just for you. And start to invest in yourself, start to detach and find something that's just entirely pleasurable, maybe has no benefit to anyone else. You know you really have to take it that far. Just something that is going to start to spark that sense of well-being again.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:21] Yeah, that self-care is so important. And sadly in our profession we tend to really frown upon it. Like no one in your work is ever going to come to you and say, "You know Megan, you worked really, really hard last month. You had that trial and all these things, take a day off." It just seems like we really have to be very diligent about caring for our well-being and being like, no sorry. I am leaving at 5:00 to go to my yoga class, or whatever it is that you do and not feel lessened. It's almost like shame you know, to say I need to go for a run or whatever it is, I need to do for my own.. or even just to say, I need an hour to go and see a therapist. There's so much stigma around just seeing a therapist, whose job is to help you maintain your mental and psychological well-being. It's very strange.

Megan Zavieh: [00:25:21] I totally agree with you. In fact I have a good story that that plays into that. When I was an associate in New York, I was taking the MCAT to go to medical school. I didn't end up going, but I was studying for it. And it was coming up, I think I had something like six weeks until the exam and I realized that I needed some quiet time for myself, to get myself in a better frame of mind. Because this was really difficult for me, I'm not science-minded and I spent all day doing law. You know all day and all night oftentimes. So our office was literally directly across the street from the Y and they had yoga classes in lunchtime or thereabouts, maybe between 11 and 1. And so I made a promise to myself that for that period of time, I was going to spend every lunch hour over at a yoga class. And our version of lunch hour was five associates go downstairs, grab food, go back to their desks, continue working, there was no lunch hour. So I'm not even sure where I got the idea I had a lunch hour.

[00:26:29] But I would sneak out every day, and I had a gym bag and I ran to the elevator, press the button feverishly. When I came back, I would like dart around the corner and throw my bag under the desk and hope no one noticed. But that was the mentality, here I was actually trying to do something good for myself, but I knew it was not going to be accepted. And that was probably the best law firm I ever worked at, and so if anywhere was going to accept it it would have been there. And I'm quite certain that it would not have been well-received. And I think that's terrible, that that's what our profession has come to.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:09] Yeah, yeah. And I think shifting that workplace culture is really worth thinking about, and probably a discussion for another time. You know, one of the things that I often get asked about from law students who don't feel like they need to go get help. Maybe they're two factors you know whatever it is but there is this fear that if I go get help that I have to disclose it on you know the moral character fitness for the bar. And they're just terrified about the fact that they're not going to be admitted to the bar, so they don't get help. So thoughts on that.

Megan Zavieh: [00:27:55] You know, whether the state bar is going to ask about it or not is sort of a different issue. I don't think that they should, it doesn't mean that they won't. We've got 50 states and everyone wrestles with that question, so I can't say that they won't ask. What I would say though is that I would far rather fill out a moral character application where I had to say I've been treated for depression, then to fill out a moral character application which says I was accused of academic dishonesty when I didn't finish my work. And I panicked on an exam and I looked at the next person's paper. Depression and mental health issues, they all lead eventually to some form of misconduct. You are so likely to fall down in a more dramatic fashion because you failed to get help then whatever consequence there will be of having gotten it.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:53] Yeah, yeah I totally agree with you. And I think it's also very problematic the way the question is often phrased on the bar application. Also, who gets to decide if you're mentally fit to be a lawyer of not?  A bunch of lawyers sitting around a room to me, are not qualified to make that determination. That's another completely bizarro area of our profession that I haven't quite figured out, but yeah. Great advice.

Megan Zavieh: [00:29:23] I think it's strange enough that a committee of lawyers gets to decide if we are morally fit, they should not be sitting around deciding if we are mentally fit.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:34] Right, at least have a therapist in the room. Like ok, how do you know if the treatment was sufficient to get over depression or whatever it is? It's very strange. Any last thoughts or parting advice to lawyers about, if they're facing a disciplinary action what are some definite do's and what are some definite don'ts? Or anything else you'd like to share before we wrap things up.

Megan Zavieh: [00:30:04] Well that's a perfectly fair question. I think I'll answer that in two parts. One is sort of last advice to people is, keep in mind that being well and being mentally healthy and emotionally healthy is a long game. It's kind of like going to the gym to get physically fit. You don't go in one day and come out of your workout going, Hey I just lost all the weight I needed to lose, I look fantastic. It's a long-game. You got to keep going, and you see the benefits later. The same with being mentally well in terms of being a lawyer. You don't necessarily realize the benefits right away, and maybe you never will quite see them but you won't necessarily recognize them. Because what's happening is you're avoiding a problem in the future. Just like staying physically fit, you might never realize that you escaped three heart attacks because you were physically fit, right. You don't get a notice going, if you hadn't been going to the gym for the past few years, today was going to be your day. You were going to have a heart attack today. You don't see it.

Megan Zavieh: [00:31:10] Well same with being fit mentally in the profession. You don't necessarily realize that because you're being physically or mentally healthy, you end up avoiding future problems with your clients; bar complaints, disciplinary matters, malpractice claims. So it's a long game, and it's one that you might not see tangible benefits to as you go through. But guaranteed if you don't take care of yourself, you're going to end up seeing the opposite. Just like if you gain all the weight and never go to the gym, you're probably going to have a heart attack someday. If you don't take care of yourself in the profession, you are probably going to end up facing a bar complaint, or a malpractice action. So don't think you've got to have some immediate benefit to it to invest in yourself. And then the other part of your question, as far as if you do end up finding yourself the subject of a bar complaint. And I'll confine my answer to one that stems in part from you having mental health or burnout issues; I'd say you need to get help from someone who's experienced in those issues, and in discipline in your state. Because a lot of lawyers go into the discipline system self-represented. And if you look at any of my materials out there, you'll see I don't always think that's a bad idea. I think a lot of lawyers are capable of handling their own defense. I do not think lawyers who are suffering from depression and burnout and mental health issues that lead to bar complaints are capable of handling their own discipline defense.

[00:32:45] The fact that these issues are there make it so that you really need help. And within the bar there are resources, there's lawyers assistance programs throughout the country. But those don't necessarily make for the first place you want to turn if you've already gotten a bar complaint. And so I would say for anyone who needs some representation after a bar complaint stemming from mental health issues, needs to go find someone experienced in this area.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:20] Megan before I ask you my last question, for folks that want to learn more about your work what are the best places for them to do that?

Megan Zavieh: [00:33:30] Well you can find me on Twitter at @ZaviehLaw and I'm always on there and commenting on these sorts of things. I blog at CaliforniaStateBarDefense.com, and I now podcast on a show called Lawyers Gone Ethical, where we talk about a lot of ethics issues.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:47] Wonderful, thank you so much. And my final question to you is, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Megan Zavieh: [00:33:59] Well that's a really good question, I like that. To me, being resilient as a lawyer and in the context that we're talking about today is that you can bounce back from having fallen off the wagon and gotten yourself in a place where you're not mentally and emotionally healthy. If you're overcome with client burdens and you're feeling the stress of the profession and you're feeling really burned out, you can come back from that by simply focusing your attention on wellness and turning around the focus in your practice so that you being healthy and competent becomes a priority. And I have seen it happen with clients and with colleagues who have really fallen down in the dumps and struggle as lawyers, coming back and being some of the most successful ones. And that's because of their focus.

Jeena Cho: [00:34:51] I love that. Megan, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

Megan Zavieh: [00:34:58] Thank you for having me Jeena.

Closing:  Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on Nancy Giles to talk about her journey from big law to starting her own practice and balancing running a practice as a parent.

Nancy created Giles Law, PLLC to support, advise, and represent businesses facing legal issues and conflicts. Nancy considers herself a member of her firm's clients' teams, staying in close contact with them to keep their goals and strategies in focus. Equipped with 20 years of experience in commercial litigation, Nancy and her team use inventive and efficient solutions to create exceptional results.

Topics Covered

• Starting out in "Big Law," looking back on the major differences between the different types of law practices, and what her transition looked like.
• How she ended up being a happy litigator, happy mother, and happy business owner.
• How her personal journey affected her work and both how she found herself co-parenting and what that looks like for her.
• What advice she would give to other lawyers feeling stuck, uninspired, or worse.

Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am so excited to have spoken to SaraEllen Hutchison. SaraEllen is a Fair Credit Reporting Act lawyer in Seattle, Washington and on top of being a talented law professional and entrepreneur; she is a writer for her blog on finance and work-life balance which can be found on her website saraellenhutchison.com. She joins us today to talk on "lawyer burnout"; from defining "burnout", it's causes, and different aspects of the recovery.

Topics Covered

• SaraEllen goes into detail as to how her work as a Consumer Protection Lawyer, and the politics/policies that go with that, led to her starting and developing her blog that aims to have a joint conversation on consumer issues and mindfulness.
• She defines her own personal experiences with burnouts, the symptoms that led to them, her own recovery through journaling and meditation, and how burnouts can happen to anyone, working for a practice or running their own.
• How her journey of self-care led to her creating a more frugal and lower over-head solo practice and the importance of knowing your worth and valuing your services appropriately.
• The dysfunction of the way we think of money by comparing ourselves to other lawyers financially and valuing our days by the 6-minute increment.

Sources mentioned:
Write It Down, Make It Happen: Knowing What You Want And Getting It
Your Money or Your Life

You can learn more about SaraEllen and her work at: 

Her Websites:

www.saraellenhutchison.com
http://seattlefaircredit.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Today's show is sponsored by Spotlight Branding. Spotlight Branding works exclusively with solo and small law firms to brand them as trusted, credible experts and help them stand out in a crowded market place. Their services include web design, social media, video marketing and more.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:00:28] It takes time to calibrate your boundaries, your sense of case selection at your firm. And then when you go solo, all of a sudden you need to learn it all over again. But you learn it faster than you did the time before.

[00:00:44] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:08] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so delighted to have SaraEllen Hutchinson. SaraEllen is a Fair Credit Reporting Act lawyer in Seattle, Washington. She's also an entrepreneur and a writer. She blogs about personal finance and work-life balance over on her website, saraellenhutchison.com.

[00:01:28] But before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. I shared a six minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers tell me that they know they should practice mindfulness meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always suggest just starting with six minutes. Or just .1 hour of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, your work and others. Don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more. And with that, here's SaraEllen. SaraEllen, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:02:27] Hi Jeena. Thanks for having me here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:29] So to get us started, can we have you just give us a 30 second introduction to who you are and what you do?

[00:02:36] Well I am a consumer protection lawyer and my area of focus is Fair Credit Reporting Act. And essentially that is if Equifax, Experian, TransUnion, or one of the other smaller credit reporting agencies, also called the bureaus, if they mess something up on your credit report, like put somebody else's debt there that's not yours or merge your records with another person who might have a similar name, social security number or something like that. Or even you know, report something that was discharged in bankruptcy like it wasn't discharged, things like that.

[00:03:22] You can bring a lawsuit against the credit reporting agencies and, in certain instances, against the creditors who report things to the bureaus. So that is my day job. And I also recently started blogging earlier this year, because as a consumer protection lawyer my work is so intertwined with politics and policy. And I think consumer issues are like a great uniter, they're pretty universal to people; fairness, truth, your good name, being treated well in a customer service context or by banks. That's pretty universal stuff across political affiliation. And I just saw how polarized people had become in this country, and I thought you know, this conversation needs to be about consumer issues and mindfulness at the same time. And when I started the blog, I wasn't completely sure how I was going to meld those together. But you know, we're working on it and it makes a lot of sense to me. And some of my blog posts are a little more political, and some of them are a little more about the mindfulness journey and the spiritual path. So that's what I'm doing on the side now.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:57] Wonderful, I love that. And I know on your blog and you talk about lawyer burnout and sort of the causes of burnout and recovery. Before we sort of get into what burnout is, what got you interested in that topic and what made you start to write about it?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:05:19] An intimate familiarity with burnout; all the different flavors and qualities of burnout. I've been a lawyer for 12 years; I went to law school pretty young. And it took me a while to find my current practice area, and to have the courage to go solo, which I did in 2010. And I found myself getting burned out pretty much everywhere I worked, for one reason or another. Either I was dealing with the wrong kinds of clients, or I was dealing with the wrong kind of workplace culture, or I loved everything about it but I wasn't being paid nearly enough. There was all these reasons and they always seemed external to me, and in many ways they were.

[00:06:15] You know if you're wearing the wrong pair of shoes, you're going to rub a lot of blisters into your feet. But then you have to look into yourself and go, why do I keep picking the wrong shoes? Why do I keep walking around in them for so long? Uphill in the snow both ways.

[00:06:30] So when I went solo in 2010, I had this great renewal of energy and enthusiasm for practicing law. And for the first time, I actually started to like it and realized, you know, find myself as a lawyer and have confidence and feel motivated and really love the clients that I was working with. But that didn't by itself make me immune to burnout forever. That wasn't just like, okay I fixed it. I'm never going to be angry or frustrated or burnt out at my job ever again. You know, there's no fix. Burnout is such a universally understood thing for American professionals these days, that it really is so cultural, it's so ingrained in American culture and Western culture too.

[00:07:36] But from the very origins of our you know, the kinds of people who first settled the country, the colonial people. And the kinds of people who came here throughout the years and even today as immigrants, as people who just want to work really hard and make something of themselves. And that's wonderful, right? But the flip side of that is, is it sustainable? Are you going to get exhausted? Are you going to burn yourself out? Are you going to you lose sight of the goal behind the goal for why you're working so hard?

Jeena Cho: [00:08:12] Yeah, yeah.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:08:13] I had to then encounter burnout while I was basically still very happy with what I was doing. And I was pretty surprised, I was like, oh I'm self-employed. I can go skiing on Wednesday, what do I have to complain about? I'm making good money. And then I realized that the deeper origins of my burnout, and I think a lot of other Americans, were just sort of the liabilities of those positive traits that say, I'm going to go out and make something of myself. I'm going to go out and change things for the better. And I had to just come up with a way to realize that burnout was something that, it's always a risk. I think if you're working in law, it's always a risk if you have a position of much responsibility even in some other field in modern American life. And so it's a mindfulness practice to not dance too close to that fire.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:24] Yeah. Well when you were going through burnout, what were some of the symptoms? Because I went through a burnout, and I don't know that it necessarily looked like what I thought it would. Like for me, I just felt really disengaged from my job, and I would just feel tired like all the time. Despite having gotten enough sleep, I just sort of felt lethargic and just tired and I thought, oh I'm just losing focus, all I have to do is just work harder. Which is of course just the opposite thing that you need to do when you're going through burnout. So what were some of the symptoms or signs you were going through a burnout?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:10:04] Well earlier in my law career, I had mysterious health problems. My skin was a mess; I was tired all the time. I had to be perfect about my nutrition or I would immediately feel bad. And so I changed a lot of those external habits in my 20's and felt a lot better. But then when it hit me again a few years into my solo practice, I had this year where my neck would never be right. And I was also more active in CrossFit at the time. And I'm not now; part of it is my neck. But I just could not get my neck to feel right.

[00:10:56] And I wake up in middle of the night and my mind would just be racing. Not really about anything upsetting, but just thinking about you know, miscellaneous stuff. Yes. My mind is just very, very active. So I had to quit drinking coffee. I cut way back on caffeine you know, from like tea and everything. And that helped. You know, there's always some external thing you can do to probably help support you in recovery from burnout, but ultimately you have to examine everything mentally and emotionally as well. But for me it was just like thinking too much. Waking up and thinking. And then my neck; I was in the chiropractor so much it was almost like a rent payment or a car payment, to go to the chiropractor. And my chiropractor was really nice and I kind of miss chatting with him. But I sure don't miss going to the chiropractor twice a week to have my neck and shoulders worked on.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:16] So what was the recovery process, that journey from burnout to wholeness or well-being? What did that journey look like for you?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:12:28] It was a few steps. I have off and on been a big journaler. So what I did, because I realized I had been just so happily working, working, working, that I hadn't been journaling. And my life was pretty good and happy, so I wasn't meditating. And I felt pretty good physically, I was active and everything. So I thought well, you know, no reason for me to slow down. I realized I had to do all of those things; I had to pick up my journaling practice again. I had to pick up meditation practice again.

[00:13:12] You know, there's a big part of me that's a bit of an introvert. So I had to just create more downtime for myself, so for me that turned into going out to eat less and just riding my bike to the grocery store or something very simple like that. Where I'm just bathing in my own energy and not necessarily having a constant hustle and bustle of being out in the world. Just having some active meditation time where I'm just quiet, you know. So being quiet, doing activities by myself; just because the work can be so busy, and your social life could be so busy. And just taking that time and you know, changing what I was doing to stay physically healthy. Like you know, if my work is kind of intense, you know litigation practice can be pretty intense, maybe I don't need to also be in a competitive CrossFit class.

[00:14:21] As much fun as that is for a lawyer and a type-A person, to go be competitive for fun, maybe that was counterproductive on certain levels. Will I say no to that forever? You know, probably not. I mean I don't like absolutes, but just trying to create a counterbalance to the intensity and in the fast pace.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:49] Yeah, it sounds like so much of that journey was learning to treat yourself kindly. There's this tendency for us lawyers to sort of go and drive ourselves exhaustion, rather than treating ourselves kindly and as we would a good friend. And I've certainly gone through that experience of almost using exercise as, you know it's like exercise is supposed to be good for you. But there is also a point in which you're doing it but it's, you know maybe like counter to the actual goal. Like you were talking about, going to CrossFit and just pushing yourself a little bit too hard. Which is probably not what you were needing, especially if you were going through burnout at the office.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:15:43] There is a time and place for everything. There was a point in my life where I had a job that I really enjoyed but I was not challenged very much. And so you know, being competitive outside of my job helped scratch that itch. But then when the stakes were higher several years later, I don't need to raise the stakes in every aspect of my life. You know, there needs to be a place where you can just be average. Where you don't have to perform, you don't have to be on. You don't need to measure yourself, you don't need to strive or achieve or even have a goal.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:35] Yeah and I think that's such an important point, that over the course of your life your self-care practices are going to look different and that it will shift. Like it may be fine to do CrossFit at certain points of your life, but then as your life circumstances change, as your body changes, that we sort of have to modify what we do for self-care and those various activities.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:17:02] Exactly.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:03] So I know that this whole journey from burnout into, I don't know, something better, healthier, also gave you some insight into creating a more frugal and lower overhead solo practice. So tell me about that.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:17:23] Yeah, so I was making pretty good money. I am making pretty good money. And the first couple of years that it started to really take off for me, I was just enjoying the relief of like, ahhh I can breathe. Everything's paid off and I can breathe. And then you get to another level where I had this huge tax bill. And it was about the time that I was burned out, that income was the product of a really hard working year you know, I earned it. Right? And I knew that I was going to have this tax bill, and I had the money set aside, I was responsible and all that stuff. But when it came time to pay it, I was not emotionally ready for it.

[00:18:29] It made me look very deep into myself and go, why am I working so hard? Did I put forth double the effort to just get 30% more benefit? And so I had to ask myself, what I am a part of here? You know, doing consumer protection law you are running into people who are all across the socioeconomic spectrum, and they're all middle class people. But there are some at one end who are barely making ends meet and have you issues with debt collectors and creditors and are doing a spinning plates game with credit cards just to get by because they've been dealt a bad hand or have been unconscious about their own relationship with money.

[00:19:47] And then on the other end, you have people who have great credit and high incomes, and spend a great deal of what they make. And when something happens that isn't their fault that still interferes with their ability to get the credit that they're otherwise qualified to get, it's a big deal to them. And so I was like, what am I working for? I'm bailing people out on one end, and then I'm just helping people spend money on the other end. And you know, is this good for anybody? And the busier I got, and I've always had a pretty low overhead practice. Off and on I've used a little contract labor here or there, I don't have any assistants or anything. But off and on I have used independent contractors and off and on I've used an answering service. And I got so busy that I was spending more on the answering service and the phone was ringing a lot. And a lot of it was just you know, I didn't have time and I didn't have space in my caseload. And I was spending all this money just to manage things that I wasn't going to get any benefit from and wasn't going to benefit anybody else. These are just people calling me that I can't help.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:18] Yeah. And you know, I think that (because I do bankruptcy law, so I see my clients go through their own financial struggles) we're not really given a whole lot of tools for having a healthy relationship with money. And it wasn't until more recently that I actually had to sort of sit down and ask myself, these money beliefs that I have and like where do they actually come from, and are they actually serving me. And some of them are just, I don't know beliefs that I had that weren't true. Like I always sort of thought well you know, really wealthy people they're all bad or that someone like me can never be wealthy or someone like me can only earn a certain amount of money.

[00:22:12] And it's just such an interesting thing, and for me it's actually become sort of more like a spiritual practice. To really sort of examine my relationship with money. And it sounds like maybe that was kind of part of your journey too and just sort of figuring out what is my relationship with money, what are the limiting beliefs I have around money?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:22:34] Absolutely. I grew up in a middle-class household, middle-class family, everybody has a college education but no one's rich. And just the messages I got about money, some of them were really, really good. And some of them did limit me, and I had to work through those to just open up my channel to really earn what I was worth it. And once I had done that, then it was a whole new level of (and I feel like it's a privilege to even be able to ask this question) what's the larger meaning of my work. And you know, in the consumer credit realm, very broadly law, what's my spiritual role in the lives of my clients? You know, I just I don't really go there with my clients. There are limits to what we can do as legal practitioners.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:53] Right, they're there because they want to hire you as a lawyer, not as their financial therapist.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:23:59] Exactly. But when I am in that role, I'm holding an energy of this is a teaching opportunity. This is an educational opportunity. I'm still learning. I've been learning. And I spend a good deal of time thinking about what is the energy of money. What's our relationship to money in American culture, because that's a topic unto itself. And there's a reason why this person has found me and not one of the other lawyers in town. I mean that's one thing, there's not a lot of Fair Credit Reporting Act lawyers running around. And the other ones who are Washington licensed are excellent. But we all have our own flavor; we all have our own vibe and our own styles about how we relate to our clients. And I think it's really important to like your clients, only take on the people that you like. That's very important because you might be with this person for a year or two, on a journey toward their wholeness. Making them whole from their harm.

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Jeena Cho: [00:26:28] You know I want to actually go back to something you just said a moment ago about knowing your worth, because that's something that I often struggle with, it is figuring out how much are my services worth, and actually valuing it appropriately. Talk a little bit more about that, how did you figure out, when you say I had to figure out what I'm worth, what did that journey look like. And how did you end up coming up with that conclusion? And was it a certain dollar amount that you came up with? Or was it just more, I don't know, something different?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:27:11] That's been a lifelong process for me. For whatever reason, I had a pattern growing up and in my younger adulthood where I felt like I had to work really hard to get half the credit of other people around me. I don't know why. It started in ballet class. That's a whole nother topic. But I just had to, I guess we're taught to be humble and not to toot our own horn too much. And not to be shamelessly self-promoting. I mean those were definitely messages I got. You know, don't be too boastful. And then, when you get into a workplace...I mean when you're in law school, there's a lot of ego flying around, whatever. But at the end of the day, you're just competing for a grade and you don't have the office politics dynamics in law school that you have in actual workplaces.

[00:28:36] And once got out into the work world, and I might have been one of two female lawyers. And there might have been seven or eight male lawyers for every gal. I found that my reluctance to toot my own horn or to overestimate my abilities and actually to underestimate my abilities in the interest of humility and caution and good taste, that did not help me. And I just wanted to compete for a personal best, and that just wasn't the culture of most places to work.

[00:29:28] And when I went solo, I finally could have a safe bubble around myself where I am not really in any kind of power struggle with anybody in my workplace. All of the jerks are external to me. It's opposing counsel or it's a judge who has no feelings for the little guy or whatever. But then I was suddenly removed from it. And I decided that I wanted to do well financially, I was doing okay but it wasn't great. I knew that I was underpaid in my previous jobs. And so I just started journaling affirmations about income goals, like and it seemed really huge. The kind of numbers that now are what I expect to do and is not all that remarkable for me, was a big deal five years ago. And so I would journal goals. There was a book that I found about the time that I was studying for the bar called, "Write it Down, Make it Happen." It's a really light read but it really inspired me. And I was already a journaler and already somebody who would write down goals and everything, but it gave me a lot of ideas about how I could use visualization to greater effect and gave me some ideas for my journaling that were really effective. And I continued to refer back to that book off and on for years. That was a great find.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:35] There is that Goldilocks dilemma, and I feel like it's more permanent for women. But you know it's like, be successful but don't be too successful. It's like what you were saying earlier about like, don't be a showoff but be really good at what you do. But don't brag about yourself. And earn money, but don't earn too much. And it's just this impossible tightrope that we have to walk.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:32:04] Yeah. I mean so no wonder a certain amount of anxiety has been normalized. It's great that we all can identify with each other and hopefully have some empathy, but it's not good if something that's not really optimal is the "new normal." What an excuse, the new normal. Why be normal if you can be healthier? it takes a little bit of mental jiu-jitsu sometimes, but it's worth it.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:42] I feel like as lawyers there's this pressure to sort of "keep up with the Joneses" or you your partner or other lawyers in your circle. And there's also this weird dynamic with money where we literally trade six minute increments for a certain dollar amount, which necessarily means that we can only generate so much income because there's only 1,440 minutes a day. And I feel like the way that we even think about money, there's just something really dysfunctional or not healthy about it.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:33:20] Exactly. The life cycle of your average lawyer is, you work your butt off in law school and you pay a significant amount of money to go. And then you emerge into the practice and you have a big bill and your student loans to pay off. And then if you are working at a law firm, I mean obviously it depends on where you're located, if you are in a city or if you're in a small town. If it's public sector, if it's nonprofits, if it's private firms. There's a big, big, wide variation. But let's just take an average, all of a sudden you need to look the part, you need to look like you're a success.

[00:34:26] You don't want to look like that frumpy person who shows up to court in the suit that has a stain on it and a bunch of pilley fuzzies under the arms or something. And there's a lot of lawyers who are like, well you know I'm making money now. As long as I'm servicing all of my debts and I have enough to live in this expensive house and drive this expensive car and have these expensive dinners out and also pay my student loans, then that's fine.

[00:35:09] No one thinks that it's going to crash down on them. And no one thinks that they're going to run out of energy. Like oh, as long as I don't run out of money I'll be fine. I'll just continue to work harder and do better every year. And then I'll have enough when I'm when I'm 65 so I can retire and sail off into the sunset. And I think a lot of people get to the point where, if you're making a million dollars a year, but you're spending $900,000 to do it, to live the life, to keep up with it. Then how are you any different from the person who's just got a part-time practice out of their kitchen? And ultimately it's the utility of your time, and your time is money.

[00:36:11] Like you said, we live in these tenth of an hour increments. Well what about the value of your own life force? I really like the book "Your Money or Your Life." by Vicki Robin. Some of the finance advice in there is a little bit dated, and that's acknowledged in later editions of the book. So you might want to branch out and read other things to get a complete plan for yourself. It's like when you're exercising on a treadmill or outside running hills. What's your rate of perceived exertion? Is this a five, where you can still carry on a conversation? Or is it a 10, where you can't talk and you are about to collapse in a pool of your own sweat?

[00:37:10] If you can calibrate that for yourself in your work and then you look back at the past year, you will find that there are certain cases where maybe you might have made a large pile of money on it. But it took a lot of your life force, and it's trade-off. Like that's fine, you make that trade-off. But are you going to make that trade-off at the same pace every year for the rest of your life? And are you going to set up your own personal financial plan on the assumption that you're going to be able to continue at this pace for that many years? And I offer to anyone listening that practicing law, especially if your practice touches on policy at all, in today's polarized culture and environment it's not going to be sustainable at that pace. For all but the most special amazing people; an average person with an average amount of energy is not going to be able to sustain it at the same pace and keep up with their lifestyle for that long. But unfortunately the culture of law is, if you want to take a mini-sabbatical and go travel for three months, you don't have a job when you come back. You're a weirdo if you want to do something like that. And the millennial generation, people criticize them for being flighty or whatever, but they got something right. They're honoring that part of themselves and I know that some of them I've talked to really struggle going into the traditional law firm environment. Because you know, they want your butt in that chair X number of hours a week, pushing it and billing it whether it's really billable and they're to be billed or not.

[00:39:39] It's very disordered. It's kind of a factory farm model of employing people to perform a service. I like to be more of a free-range lawyer.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:58] Yeah. And I think understanding your own boundaries and your limitations is so important. And coming around full circle and avoiding burnout is, you know, I think burnout is stress, chronic stress sustained over a period of time that leads to burnout.

[00:40:19] And often we just, you work and work and work, and we don't realize that we're kind of going at that 10 speed, where you're just sort of huffing and puffing, trying to catch your breath and you can't carry on a conversation. But we don't even recognize that that's where we're at. And I think that's where the danger comes in, like if that's your intention to work at that pace, great. But at least be mindful of it, like be cognizant of the fact that that's what you're doing. And also have it be something that is coming from a choice, an intentional choice that you're making rather than just going along with it whatever lands at your desk and not really paying attention to your own well-being.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:41:05] Exactly. I think you know, you want to sustain that pace for five or ten years, then you should be saving a large portion of your income. So that you can slow down considerably after that amount. Even if you love it, even if you never want to actually retire from practicing and being of service, that's not what this is about. It's giving yourself the option to take care of yourself. For me you know, that's been self-employment. The answers might be different for other people.

Jeena Cho: [00:41:51] Yeah and I think that's really important to point out, that there's no like singular right answer. And I think also that's where having self-knowledge is really important. Which is why I'm also such a huge advocate of having a regular mindfulness practice, because that gives you insight to yourself. And it's kind of shocking how little we often know about ourselves and what our limitations. Or even what we desire.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:24] Well SaraEllen, I am so grateful to you for joining us and for your time. But one last question before I let you go. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:42:41] I liked what you said earlier about boundaries, to know yourself, to know your limits, and to find a sustainable way of practicing.

Jeena Cho: [00:42:55] And if you're doing it right, hopefully this will be a long career. It's a marathon not a sprint.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:43:01] Yeah, and it takes time to calibrate your boundaries. And they change. You know, you might have a great sense of case selection at your firm, and then when you go solo all of a sudden you need to learn it all over again. But you learn it faster than you did the time before. And I think just being flexible. That would be part of it too. Being flexible, knowing yourself, being flexible and being willing to constantly question and experiment.

Jeena Cho: [00:43:39] I love that. SaraEllen, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you or check out your blog or connect with you, what are the best ways of doing that?

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:43:50] I would love it if you would check out my blog, it is at saraellenhutchison.com. And Sara does not have an "H" and Hutchison does not have an "N" there, it's just the end "Hutch-is-son." And you can also check out my practice website that is seattlefaircredit.com.

Jeena Cho: [00:44:18] Awesome. SaraEllen, thank you so much for joining me today.

SaraEllen Hutchison: [00:44:23] Thank you. I am honored to be part of this great podcast.

[00:44:33] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I read an article I recently wrote for the American Bar Association. They put out a call for lawyers that come from an underprivileged background to share their "My Path to Law" Story, so I thought this would be a perfect time to share my story in terms of how I went from being an immigrant from Korea at the age of 10 to being a lawyer.

My Path to Law: Finding Meaning and Purpose

I watched a lot of Law & Order growing up. My family immigrated to the U.S. in 1988 (the same year that Korea last hosted the Olympics). I was 10 years old and didn't speak a word of English. Neither did anyone else in my family. As I watched, I repeated the phrases the lawyers said on the show, trying to learn the words, the intonation, the meaning.

When we moved to the U.S., we settled in Astoria, New York, where my grandparents owned a grocery store. My dad went from being an architect at Samsung to working seven days a week at the grocery store. My mom had been an art teacher; in New York, she worked at a nail salon.

Here's the thing. When you're an immigrant in a country where you don't speak the language, where you aren't familiar with its rules and laws, you get taken advantage of.

We moved into an apartment with no hot water but plenty of cockroaches and rats. We didn't know for years that you can report the landlord to housing agencies. I still remember waking up in the middle of the night, screaming, terrified because a rat ran across my torso. Once I found a cockroach in a bowl of soup.

Eventually, my dad bought a laundromat. More than once, customers threatened to sue him for some claimed loss or damage to their clothing. He usually paid them because he didn't understand how the legal system worked.

I knew from watching Law & Order that there were rules in this country designed to protect the innocent, punish wrongdoers and restore justice. I loved the show. In 60 minutes, bad people were always prosecuted and justice served. To my naive 12-year-old self, this was obviously my path: Go to law school. Become a prosecutor. Send bad guys to jail. Protect the innocent.

As a sophomore in high school, I decided I was going away for college, but my parents were very traditional and didn't approve. They often said that the only way I was allowed to leave the house was if I were (1) married or (2) dead. Neither option appealed to me.

I saved every dollar I could from my job as a cashier at Boston Market and applied for colleges out of town. I faked their signatures on the applications, completed all the financial aid forms, and got into University at Buffalo (SUNY Buffalo) 420 miles away with a full scholarship.

Once it was clear that I wouldn't need their permission or financial support, I "ran away" to college. I was 17 years old. I didn't speak to my parents for a long time after that.

As an immigrant working menial jobs, you often feel unseen and unrecognized. I'll never forget the summer I worked in my mom's nail salon. She told a customer (very proudly) that I had just graduated from college. The woman looked at me as if seeing me for the first time (while I was washing her feet), and said very sweetly, "Well, isn't that nice. So, will you be working here then?"

Stunned, I paused and responded that I was there for the summer but was starting law school in the fall. Her facial expression changed and she responded, "Well, good for you."

I graduated from law school at 24 and got my dream job as an assistant state attorney in Florida. There I learned that one privilege of having that role is seeing images we'll never be able to unsee and hearing stories we'll never be able to unhear. I was assigned to the domestic violence unit, where I learned that our criminal "justice" system is a terrible mechanism for helping people.

Later, I was assigned to misdemeanors court. The first day was arraignment day. The judge, through a Spanish-speaking interpreter, asked everyone who was there for driving without a valid license to move into the jury box. A group of about 30 men stood and walked over. There were too many of them for the jury box, so they huddled around it. They looked tired, with leathered skin from working in the fields all day, their hands and fingers swollen.

The judge had the interpreter tell them his rule. "The first time you're caught, it's a fine. Second time, it's 10 days in jail. Third time, 364 days." For comparison, a third-time DUI carried with it a minimum mandatory sentence of 30 days.

One by one, the men were asked to plead. Those that pled guilty were sentenced according to the judge's rule. Often the defendants didn't understand the consequences of pleading guilty, and more than once would start wailing when they were taken straight from arraignment to jail. Those that didn't plead were assigned a public defender and set for trial.

This was deeply traumatizing. Although I was in the U.S. legally, I could see myself, my family in the faces and stories of these workers.

Bryan Stevenson asks in his book Just Mercy, "Why do we want to kill all the broken people?" I didn't try capital cases, but his question resonates with me. As an assistant state attorney, I saw how we want to lock away, criminalize and shun people who are broken.

Like most state attorneys' offices, we were overworked (I had over 250 cases) and there was no time. No time to sit down and figure out how to help people. No time to consider what would be a just outcome. I was burning out, desperately trying to keep my head above water, and having regular nightmares of seeing my parents in the jury box - nightmares of their being taken away from me for 364 days.

I needed a change. So, I moved from Tampa to the San Francisco Bay Area. I met my husband, Jeff Curl, who is also a lawyer, and we started a bankruptcy practice. This was the perfect practice area for me (even though it doesn't make me very popular at cocktail parties). I get to help people who are experiencing financial trauma and give them a fresh start. It is healing and restorative.

The first bankruptcy case I ever filed was for a very sweet 69-year-old immigrant. He was HIV-positive and struggling with bipolar depression. After the meeting of creditors, we hugged and he cried.

I started practicing mindfulness and meditation in 2011 after being diagnosed with social anxiety disorder. This eventually led to co-authoring a book with Karen Gifford for ABA Publishing, The Anxious Lawyer.

Here's what I know. While my 12-year-old self's understanding of how our justice system works was flawed and naive, what I've retained is the deep desire to make a difference, to create a better world, and to live with compassion.

As Rainer Maria Rilke writes in his book Letters to a Young Poet, "The point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer."

Every day, I live with the question: "What would be the most kind, generous and compassionate response?" I am practicing living into the answer.

This article was first published in the ABA Journal, My path to law: one immigrant's journey. You can also find the related blog post from www.JeenaCho.com here.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Dr. Kimberly Jarvis on to talk about career transition: opening up that internal dialogue and finding those next steps.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis is the CEO and Founder of All Career Matters, a consulting firm focused on leadership and team development. Kimberly has over 20 years' experience in career and leadership development coaching with individuals and groups from diverse backgrounds and industries. Leveraging her leadership experience in several different industries, Kimberly creates and delivers customized organizational, leadership and talent development initiatives aimed at improving individual and team performance and engagement. She specializes in implementing large-scale programs and initiatives geared toward people development. Kimberly's mission is to support leaders and teams with exceptional productivity and performance through practical strategies to enhance leadership and interpersonal skills.

Topics Covered

• What someone who is unhappy at work should do to change the situation and start thinking and acting proactively.
• How someone should determine what aspects of their current work situation are not a fit and the difference between a change of career and a change of environment.
• How a career coach can help people that are going through these transitions.
• How people can assess future promotions/job changes with this knowledge as a foundation, and redefine their career by changing into a different niche rather than change their career altogether.

Find out more on Kim at:
AllCareerMatters.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:00:00] Thinking about what you do like about your current job and previous jobs and what you do not like is valuable, because sometimes people are in the wrong environment and they assume they have to change careers, when actually they just need to change environments.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Before we get into today's interview, I have a favor to ask. Making this podcast is all about relationships; cultivating relationships with the guests, and also relationships with you, the listeners. You probably know a lot about me, but I don't really know anything about you. So here's the favor: please head on over to JeenaCho.com. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, backslash podcast and tell me a bit about you. Also, I'd love to know what you like about the show and what could be improved. On today's episode, I have Dr. Kimberly Jarvis. She is the CEO and founder of All Career Matters, a consulting firm focused on leadership and team development. Kimberly has over 20 years experience in career and leadership development, coaching with individuals and groups from diverse backgrounds and industries. Kimberly is a member of Forbes Coach's Counsel, and her career advice has been featured in Forbes, Barron's, CNBC, and Vogue.

[00:01:49] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last two bonus episodes go back and check it out. That is from May 16th and May 30th. I always tell lawyers to start with just six minutes of meditation a day. Why six minutes? Because of course, that's how we keep track of our time. So I'm offering a program Mindful Pause, and its six minutes of daily mindfulness practice. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into a hectic schedule. Think of it as like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com or check out the show notes. And with that, here's Kimberly. Welcome Kim to the show, I'm so happy to have you.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:02:40] Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:02:48] Great. So I am CEO and founder of Career Matters, which is an organization, a consulting firm that helps primarily leaders and teams to grow and develop. I'm focused on executive coaching, but also work with leaders on career transition as they're considering next steps in their career.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] Great. So it's a career transition piece that I wanted to have you on the show for, because so often I talk to lawyers and they'll tell me something like, "I'm just really, really unhappy at my job but I don't know what else I should do." They don't know if it's a matter of finding another job, or leaving law altogether. And I think so much of that is because they're not really willing to even have that internal dialogue about the things that would make them happy. I know this is a big question to start with, but what should someone who is really unhappy at their job, what are the first two or three steps they should begin with?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:03:51] Well, and I think one of the things that's most important is recognizing that they're unhappy, and then being willing to change. Because many people who are unhappy just suffer through it, sometimes for years. So I think recognizing your feelings and thinking about how you can change the situation are really critical. One of the things that I think is really important to do in this process is think about what's making you unhappy specifically; is that your role, your day-to-day job responsibilities, or is your environment at work? The culture of the organization, your leader's style, your boss's style. I actually recommend that people write a list of the things that they're unhappy about, and assess which of those things relate to their role, which relate to the environment. So that they're taking the time to pinpoint what's making them happy, instead of just a generalized feeling of discontent. And then I encourage people to think about what's within their control, and what's outside of their control. So when you take that list, thinking about what are the things that you can control and influence, and focusing all of your attention on that. An example of this is a company that's going through rapid growth, sometimes that means rapid pace and rapid burnout, unless people are strategic about it. So rapid growth relates to your environment.

[00:05:22] You can't control the growth of your company, unless you actively try to decrease that growth (which is not recommended at all) but you can control how you react to that pace. You can control what are you doing, what are the activities that are giving the best and biggest ROI, and what can you stop doing, to be more strategic and planful, and eliminate some things.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:50] Yeah. It also seems like when, especially for lawyers that have really high billable hours and all they do is work, even the idea of job searching can be really overwhelming. Like they don't really have the time or the space to even look for another job. Advice for those lawyers?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:06:11] Well I think if you're unhappy, it has to be a priority. Just like taking care of yourself, I know you are focused a lot on wellness and mindfulness. People who are unhappy could do nothing and continue to live that way, or they could make it a priority and squeeze in the time that's needed to think about these things. And honestly, I think if you have a little bit of guidance and support it's not as overwhelming as it might seem without that. So a great mentor, a really good coach, somebody else who can be objective and help you think through these things, and maybe have you outline steps to take to move in a different direction would be recommended.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:00] Yeah, I love that advice. You know, I often find that for some lawyers they get to a point and they go, you know I just don't think law is right for me. And of course that leads to tremendous feelings of guilt and uncertainty, because that's what they went to law school for. It was just such a huge commitment to get to where they're at, so the idea of doing something different is terrifying. And also because all they do is law, they don't even know the possibilities of different career choices that are out there. How should lawyers go about exploring their interests outside of law, how do you figure out what you should do with your life, what you should do when you grow up?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:07:46] Well I've worked with a lot of people who are lawyers, or even medical doctors, priests, honestly in my career who have spent a lot of time committing to a particular career path and tons of time in school, and it is difficult. But I think thinking about what you do like about your current job and previous jobs and what you do not like is valuable, because sometimes people are in the wrong environment and they assume they have to change careers, when actually they just need to change environments. So I think that's why when you're thinking through what are the things that are making you unhappy and do those relate to your role or to your environment, that's really an important piece. I've worked with many people who have come to me and said, "I have to change careers, I'm absolutely miserable." And when they tell me about what they're miserable about and it relates completely to the culture of their organization, I'll say, "What about what you do every day, your day-to-day job responsibilities," and if those responsibilities are things that they enjoy, that's a different situation than somebody who absolutely loves where they work, they love their boss but they're bored to tears by their day-to-day responsibilities. They're not challenged, they're not stimulated, or maybe they're over-challenged and stimulated by those activities.

Or sometimes it's a matter of way too much quantity and not enough quality. So I think again, going back to what is it that is not working for you and being really specific about that. Because there might be a chance that you can still use your law degree and your background, but in a different way. Maybe in a different role or on different projects, or within a different organization that would value your experience but use your talent in a new way. So I think learning, everybody knows some jobs that really interest and excite them; everybody does, even people say, "I have no idea what I want to be." People know. I have not worked with one person in the thousands of people I've worked with who didn't know, after being pushed and probed, what they would actually like to do if they could do it and if there were no restrictions, based on finances or based on paradigms that they tell themselves or negative self-talk. Everybody has an idea of what they would be spending their time doing if they could and if there were no restrictions.

[00:10:43] So I would think about those ideas that you've had in the past, the things that have bubbled up. What would you like to be doing and what is it about those things that you think you'd enjoy? How can you learn more about them, how can you connect to people who are in similar roles or do similar work and do informational interviews? 10 to 15-minute meetings, often on the phone. They don't have to be face-to-face, asking questions about what is a typical day like, how did you get to where you are, what would you recommend I do if I wanted to make a similar transition? How is my background preparing me or holding me back potentially from a role like this? So I think it involves taking a step back, and taking the time. And it doesn't have to be a lot of time, to think about what's not working specifically, and what would you like to have incorporated into your daily work or environment? What are the things that you think you'd enjoy doing, and how can you learn more about them?

Jeena Cho: [00:11:48] How does a career coach help people that are going through these job transitions? What do they do specifically?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:11:56] So coaches are a great way to objectively help you assess your values, your goals, your skills, strengths, interests, knowledge, background. Skills that are transferable from job to job, help you to think about what do you need out of work, what has worked in the past and what hasn't worked. Help you think about a plan for next steps, so it's customized to your particular situation and to all of those things that we just talked about. Many coaches will include assessments to help people understand their personality type, their emotional intelligence, communication style preferences, so that they can better understand why things were not fit or why they're feeling uncomfortable in a particular role, and identify cultural variables that would be really important to them. Leadership styles that they may thrive under, and different kinds of opportunities that may offer that to them. So I think it's an objective source of feedback on some of the things that are difficult for you living in your life to take a step back and think about. And if you're working with a coach, you're also dedicating that time. And usually coaches structure work with clients, so that it's pretty regular and ongoing. And you're dedicating that time, you have homework after each of the sessions and things you're going to do before the next meeting that help you be accountable to the process and move forward.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:41] Yeah, I've worked with various coaches over my career and I really found the homework, it's really the in-between time that I often get the most out of. And also I really enjoy working with a coach because the coach, they don't have an agenda. They come to you to serve you and figure out what would make you happy, give you that sense of contentment and belonging. Whereas talking to a friend or your spouse, they sort of have their own agenda, right?

[00:14:14] So I found just having someone hold up a mirror and perhaps shedding some light on the blind spots, or helping me think about things in a different way. Like I knew that I really wanted to teach mindfulness and meditation to lawyers, but I was like wait, there's no job title for that. There's no job description, there's no degree that you can get where you become certified and they say, okay now are you're certified to go and do this thing. So I kind of knew what I wanted to do, but I had to figure out what that looks like for me. And then I figured out that there was a whole world of consultants that work with lawyers, and of course coaches that work with various professionals. And I went, oh! So I think that's the other thing that's important to keep in mind, when you're in this place of feeling stuck and you're just so happy, is that's how it is in this moment. But that doesn't mean it's permanent, it's subject to change. And I think often that working with a coach is really helpful from that perspective, because they help you to see, okay this is just where you're at. But you're making progress and progressing through it.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:15:31] Well and I think your point is great, because that discomfort is what encourages people to change. It's not until there's a certain level of discomfort that people will change. And so the misery involved in some of your situations, and we've all been miserable in jobs in the past. If you haven't, you're incredibly fortunate. But, that misery is what really is a catalyst to change. So it's a blessing in disguise in some ways, because it gets you out of those negative and toxic situations that aren't good. And I think your example about making this nitsch that didn't really exist is brilliant, because you've done this so well and you have filled a need and a gap that wasn't filled very well prior to you getting into that space. So I think it's a great example of, I'm sure that you told yourself at some point, "I can't do this, it doesn't exist." Like you said, there is no job description. So because nobody else has done it, I can't do this. Those are the kind of paradigms that coaches can help you identify and reframe into, it's because nobody has done this that I can be successful. Because there's a need, there's a gap there.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:54] Yeah, and I think lawyers are really nicely positioned to do this. Like you can do family law, but you can also find a niche within family law where you do things your own unique way, and your clients are going to find you because you offer that thing that no one else offers. And I think with all the technology that's available, it's really easy to set yourself up and start your own business, or really carve out a life for yourself that I don't know would have been possible 20 or 30 years ago.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:17:32] Right, we're so fortunate in that respect.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:36] Sometimes I work with lawyers and they're clearly going through some level of burnout and depression, but it's almost hard to tease out how much of that is a mental health issue and therefore they should see a therapist versus it's being in the wrong job and that's contributing to the burnout and the depression, and it's just a matter of finding a new job. Can you share your perspective on when it's appropriate to see a therapist versus working with a coach?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:18:11] What's interesting is there are some coaches who are clinically trained. So I'm a clinical social worker and am able to diagnose and treat mental illness, in addition to doing the more pragmatic and kind of practical approach to career coaching. But I think if you have an ongoing challenge with depression or anxiety or some of the common symptoms around that, like difficulty sleeping, lack of interest in things that usually would interest you, lack of motivation, being tired all the time. And some of these symptoms are things that you can experience just from being in a miserable work environment. I've experienced some myself working in a miserable environment, so it's hard sometimes to discern. But I think if you have a history of mental health issues, or if you have been medicated for mental health issues and you've had experience working with a therapist and that's been helpful, I would start with your therapist, if you aren't currently working with a therapist. If most of your challenges and concerns have stemmed from more, you've noticed align with a particular situation or work environment that you're in, or maybe a personal situation that you're struggling with in addition to challenges at work, a coach may be the best option for you.

[00:19:47] Coaches will know when they have reached their limit on this, good coaches, and will know when to refer people to a therapist. And your coach and/or therapist may be able to work and encourage a referral to the other profession, and (with your permission) update each other. With the correct, signed, appropriate paperwork, update each other, the coach and the therapist, on your progress. So that's something that's a possibility as well. So I think I'd think about is this acute or is it chronic, and when did you notice these symptoms occurring? And it's not always super black and white like you said Jeena, and I think that strong coaches will understand when they need to refer.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:44] You know, I know that as lawyers we really frown upon being vulnerable, or being perceived as weak in any way. But lawyers are still human beings, and we're subject to the human condition. Which includes things like burnout and depression, and being at jobs that aren't quite the right fit. So I really want to encourage the listeners out there, if you feel like you've done what you can, there's no shame in asking for help. If you're an athlete and you're training for the Olympics, of course you would have a coach. So it just seems very strange that there's this expectation that we should know how to manage our careers on our own without help, and somehow getting outside help is a signal of weakness or that you're flawed in some way.

[00:21:44] I mean, I certainly felt that way at times. But now that I've seen for myself just the incredible benefits of having someone outside that can guide you and help you and just offer more tools, I really feel like that's one of the things that both coaches and therapists do, is to help you have more tools in your toolbox so the next time you come across a tricky situation or a similar situation, you go ah, I have a tool for that; let me pull it out and use it again.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:22:16] Right, and the stigma isn't just for lawyers. I think other people question whether or not you know.. and maybe it's the word "help." Help, I need help. And I would encourage you to reframe that from I need help to, I'd like another perspective; I'd like an objective opinion about my situation, I would like somebody to help hold me accountable, because I've had trouble focusing enough attention and energy to make a change. Which is common for people who are really busy and struggling just to get through the work week because of everything that they're juggling, families and jobs. So I would reframe it; it's not necessarily getting help, it's getting an extra opinion. It's getting like you said a new tool, to move you forward in the way that you'd like to move forward.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:17] Yeah, I really like that reframing. Okay, so once someone does their homework and figures out what is it specifically about this particular job that's not working, what are the things that are working, what do you do with that knowledge? How do you then use that knowledge to find your next job that will be a better fit for you?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:23:40] Well I think that is absolutely critical knowledge that everyone should go through before they look for a new job, even if they're happy with their current job. And I think it's often not happening, but I've seen the ramifications of people not taking a step back and thinking about these things. Taking a promotion and then realizing, I didn't want to be here what am I doing?! I don't want to do this kind of work. Or leaving an amazing company for another company that is not a fit. So I think really carefully thinking about what's making you unhappy, do those things relate to your role or your environment, is an awesome foundation. Thinking about what you have liked and disliked in your current job, in previous jobs is a great foundation, so that you can then assess future opportunities. Whether it's an internal promotion or an external opportunity, against what's important to you and what you value. And then what I highly recommend doing is if you're looking outside or inside an internal promotion with a department that you don't have a lot of information on, do informational interviews with people within those organizations or departments, so you can get a better understanding of the culture of the team, the leader's style, how things operate, their strategy. And you can ask probing questions in informational interviews, those conversations will help you in the interview process. Because you'll have inside information that will help you when you're sharing with the interviewer what you know about the organization or that department.

It will also help you assess whether or not that's a fit, right? And when you're in interviews, you can ask probing questions to assess aspects of the role and of the environment against what's important to you and your values. For me, strong, fair, and credible leadership is one of the absolute most important aspects of a new job. So I spend a lot of time talking to anyone that I can who currently works at a company, and get as much information as I can. And when I'm interviewing, I ask a lot of questions about those things that are important to me. And I will ask questions related to the manager's approach to leading the team, how they set strategy, how they support work-life fit, how they provide constructive and positive feedback. Because I've experienced leadership that does not do these things well, and I've learned from that and I've learned that I have to assess that in the future. I will ask, and I encourage people that I coach to ask, behavior-based interview questions. "Tell me about a time when you supported your team's work-life fit. What Happened, what was the result? Tell me about a time when you had to offer constructive feedback to someone who reported to you. How did you do that, what was the impact? Tell me about a time when you involved your team in setting the strategy for the next few years. How did you gather their input, and what was the impact on result?"

[00:27:07] Because just like interviewers ask you behavior-based interview questions, because they're much harder to kind of BS (sorry, can't think of another way of putting it) your way through the answer. You can do the same with hiring managers, it's much harder for them to BS their way through that answer and to make something up on the fly. It's a lot easier to do that for questions like, so do you support work-life fit? Yeah, yeah I do. They have to tell a story, and that's why interviewers ask candidates behavior-based interview questions. Because past performance is an indicator of future performance, and it's one of the strongest indicators.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:55] Well Kim, it was so nice having you on this show and thanks so much for sharing your wisdom with us. For the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about you and your work, what's the best place to do that?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:07] My website would be a good place to go, allcareermatters.com.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:13] Great.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:14] And thanks for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:15] Thank you. And you also work with lawyers on career transitions?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:21] I do, I do not specialize in working with lawyers but I have worked with many lawyers who are focused on career transitions. I work with all industries and functions, primarily leadership level.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:34] Great. And my final question to you is this: the name of the podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:45] I think resiliency is struggling and learning from that struggle, and making changes so that that struggle is less intense, less difficult. Also seeing failure or mistakes or dark times as an opportunity to grow and develop, not just as dark and failed times but an opportunity for you to continue to develop as a human being, and incorporate new strategies into your daily work.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:23] Great. Kim, thank you again so much for joining me.

Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:29:27] Thank you.

Closing: [00:29:32] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

This is a mini session where I reflect on a CLE I offered at the Women's Bar Association of Illinois.

I talk about:

• Managing stress/anxiety
• Thinking errors
• Reframing
• Design thinking
• The harm of not living your authentic self

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Check out this episode!

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the "rubber-stamped" version of what a lawyer should look like.

Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments.

Topics Covered

• What obstacles he has faced based solely on his appearance, and instances where he has been pressured to alter his appearance or conform.
• How owning who you are can turn some people off to you, but will help bring you closer to your tribe of those that will be drawn to you.
• Choosing to enjoy the work you do and shaping your practice in a way that gives you a sense of contentment.
• How recent tragedies inspired him to overcome some of the intrinsic prejudices his looks can garner in a courtroom and add criminal law to his practice.

Learn more and connect with Marcus at:

Website
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:00:01] Inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody and being open with them. And so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation, to say well let's just challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today for another episode of the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the “rubber-stamped” version of what a lawyer should look like. Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments. In this episode, we're going to chat about staying true to yourself and perhaps not looking like the rubber stamp version of what a lawyer should look like. I think you'll really enjoy this episode.

Before we get into the interview, if you haven’t listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It’s a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don’t have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don’t you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Marcus. Marcus, welcome to the show.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:25] Thank you for having me, I’m very excited to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:28] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:35] So as you did say, my name is Marcus Shute, Jr. I am a sports and entertainment attorney here in Nashville Tennessee. I’m made of Nashville you know, went to high school here. Moved to Georgia for a brief minute and came back for undergrad and opened up my law practice as soon as I passed the bar.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:53] Wow that is a big jump in anxiety. I'm kind of attracted media and want me to chat with you. Is that you all sort of built a brand around you know who you are and especially how you look. So maybe for the listeners out there that, of course, can't speak. Can you just started to describe you know what you look like and what you know your client might see when they come in for their first client interview

Jeena Cho: [00:03:50] So you know I certainly remember when I was in law school there was and I went to law school back in the 2000s and there was sort of a lot of talk about you know confirming that you want to look like a lawyer or you want to dress the part. And you know I know that I certainly spent a lot of time sort of trying to look the part I was an assistant state attorney immediately after graduating from law school. And you know when I start and put on a suit and especially because I had to sort of be in the courtroom all the time and I didn't want to be mistaken for you know a court reporter or a Korean language interpreter. So I'm curious you know like Did you ever feel like you felt the pressure to conform you know to cut off your dreads or to cover up your tattoos. Of course, she can't really do much about the color of your skin or your height.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:04:41] Right you're right. Yes. So I did. And actually, it started you know back when I was an undergrad so I was an undergrad in the 2000s and I had a teacher a professor you know say to me that hey if you plan on pursuing your career in law that you're probably going to have to cut your hair. Most law firms won't accept you. And at the time I was a student athlete so I was hoping that I would go pro but it didn't work out that way. So I was still adamant in opposition about why I don't think that I should have to make that change of who I am to fit in or to still practice law. So and also again in law school. I also was told by some teachers there that I should consider changing my hairstyle to fit in to make sure that I'd be able to advance forward in different law firms. So those are things I face. And like you going into courtrooms wanting to make sure that I look the part of an attorney was something I was conscious of because I didn't want my clients you know my potential client in the future to be impacted by somebody presuming that you know I'm not an attorney because I look like I could be a defendant.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:00] Right. Well I mean well I guess to back up a little bit. So at what point were you like I am not cutting off my tights and I'm not going to try to look like the rubber stamp fashion of what a billion looks like.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:06:15] I would say in my undergraduate years is kind of when I got that foundation. Now OK this is kind of who I am like most people when they're going through undergrad. You know you're away from your parents is your first time being on your own. So you are learning a lot about yourself. And you know I learned a lot about my history and it was something that is so important for me personally and also it also started conversations so for me you know when we talk about inclusion and I know we'll probably talk about that later but it's inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody being open worker and so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation to say well let's challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful. I would say definitely no undergrad.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:36] And I think you know do you think the reverse is also how some people are going to look at you look at your Web site and be like Yup he's not only my lawyer.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:08:45] Absolutely. I mean so I mentioned I taught high school so I taught Spanish in government when I taught there. And so you can imagine you know young African-American boys and girls that see somebody who looks like them. They can talk like them but they can also speak another language. And I think that's the same thing that applies to my law practice. When I recruit players or musicians or writers or I go to a writers workshop and my kind of blend in and almost look like I could be one of them and then when I say hey I'm an attorney. Let's talk about you know what you're doing as they do some research and like you said to go to my website and almost immediately feel like they're drawn to me because they can relate to me instantly.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:58] You know. Yeah. And especially as lawyers you know there is so much pressure to look the part of a lawyer and that you know and to have a certain type of job and strange type of prestige and you know just on and on and often that's like the end ingredient or unhappiness you know like you. And you can kind of get on that treadmill of just checking all the boxes. But then someplace you look up and you're like wow I'm really unhappy and I think that unhappiness that this content comes from being completely out of touch with yourself you know.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:12:36] So true. So true. Like you know when you are taking the boxes like where I have to do this or I have to drive this type of car I had to practice this type of way where I had to have my office set up this type away and you start running trying to achieve all those goals that you think our goals. And then once you do that you will go back and say wow I'm on the field and that's another thing that you know makes it makes it easier for me to do what I do because I want to enjoy what I do. I wanted to be a passion and I want to feel like I'm just going in punching the clock. I want to you know look forward to every day when I'm getting up to go to work. This is what I'm choosing to do and I enjoy it.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:14] So yeah will say more about that about choosing to enjoy the work that you do on shaping your practice in a way that gives you that sense of contentment.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:13:26] So it would help to give a little context of why I chose sports entertainment. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies before been a store manager. And you know I've worked for other companies and help you know reach their goals and metrics and indeed will perform well. But you know I was frustrated because I felt like I was in the field and it didn't bring me joy. It was like oh I did I did something well. I don't feel good about you know what I did. So when I started to look at what area of law I wanted to practice or you know being an attorney period I wanted it to be something that I enjoy doing where there wouldn't be a time where I look up to say I'm frustrated. I'm angry with what I'm doing because if pay if I am then that means I need to refocus on what it is that I chose to do because it's all up to me.

[00:14:19] And that's part of the reason why I opted to start my own practice and the law firm as opposed to going to join a big law firm. Although I interviewed I knew that I would be working you know 50 60 hours a week. At the direction of my superiors, whatever case came to the door that you would be my job for the time being. And I learned that if I could find a way to choose the things that I enjoy and it relates to my law practice then it won't feel like work I'll just be challenging myself to be a better version of myself to learn more about certain areas of law and those things have been very helpful. You know it helps keep you away from that thing. We were just talking about checking out those boxes because I'm not looking for accolades because it's my personal enjoyment it's not you know I need a B.A. you know top layer 100 in this area practice because that's not what drives me you know.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:20] Yeah. And I always find those warrants are so strange because it's like you pay for it.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:29] Right now.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:32] Like you're like that and whatever and superstar lawyer and we want you to pass. And in fact, it's like now.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:39] Right. Or they give you a tour you go pay a hundred bucks to get Lycett or 250 for this nice little placard 30 50 for a little mini there. And it's like it's you know ego. I don't know how you go. Someone once told me ego means edging God out. And you know just not thinking and the idea that you know it's bigger than you. So what I do is intentional so having my hair like it is having my tattoos like they are is intentional because it's bigger than me it's for those that come behind me so that the obstacles that I face they won't have to.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:14] Yeah. Talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that do face because of you know your locks.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:16:21] Yeah. So one particular incident that has kind of been my driving point in WA opened up my practice to criminal law. When I was in law school I interned with a law office and went to court. And when the recess was about to happen the attorney that I was practicing under wanted me to aim once to introduce me to the judge. And so she got the judge's attention and said you know this is Mr. shooty is pregnant under Rule 7 with our office. And the response from the judge in open court was oh I thought that was your client. And it was very disheartening because I had been there all morning had spoken to her on some other Clines cases and so, of course, there were people in the courtroom. So immediately I felt ashamed because of her perception of me and for the beginning of my practice, I didn't do a lot of criminal work because I always would assume that everybody would have her same perception. And so it wasn't until she knows some of the tragedies like Michael Brown Eric Garner happened. I felt inspired to get involved in the criminal justice system and with a law degree what better way than to defend those that are innocent. And so that that would really launch me into it.

Now you know I have a very successful you know area of law practice in criminal defense and a lot of that goes to. To me, I think that it helps to change the perception of police officers that I have to question in cross-examination when looking at somebody that normally in their line of work they only are arrested. And now they're having to look at this same type of description that they normally get as an attorney that questions them. So those are some things I'd definitely say some of those obstacles. You know sometimes when I go to different courthouses they don't know that I don't frequent ally sometimes security guards may ask me for my bar card different things like that. But you know just kind of comes with the territory. I've accepted that I will say some of those obstacles. And for me, it's about how I go how I am able to overcome them because I know that someone is always watching and the way that I know proceed through dealing with those obstacles will help somebody else.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:44] Yeah. So how do you deal with that? You know how do you deal with watching you know five white Villiers just get way Theriault and then you come up and he's like can I use your marker and I'm presuming you're in a suit like you're in a court and walked it.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:00] Absolutely yeah absolutely.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:02] How do you deal with that. You said when you say you know I've learned how to overcome those obstacles like what does it look like.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:10] So you know the thing to be learned is you can say a lot of things untrue and it's about how you say. So there are some signs where we say speak the truth in love or you know even if you can joke about it a little bit and not take it to heart that they haven't been exposed to a lot of different cultures. For me I was exposed a lot of different cultures and growing up I went to magnet schools and so I learned Spanish at a young age because I was just interested in the culture and because of that, it taught me to respect people that were different from me. Everybody doesn't have that same upbringing. So when you know the security guard say Can I see your bar card as you know out may laugh at him and say Did you forget to ask. You know the other guys are there. And then they may smile sheepishly or something like that and or I may say this new policy that we're doing now. Do we ask everyone you know and if not they try to do it in a way that makes them feel comfortable to wear it?

[00:20:18] They will want to respond because then by me asking them that openly question it. It challenges them to give me an answer and they don't want to say oh because you're the black guy because you know you know so you know. But even then a month and then once I do show them your car they never forget me. So that's true and that's why I've learned you know because there were times where I and I have to be honest I'm very transparent. There are times where I didn't respond as well where I would respond with anger and frustration. And I had to learn that that's not the best way for me to handle it. Because what could happen to me. And then too it's a teachable moment for them. So give them the opportunity to learn.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:03] Yeah. How do you deal with that, when you're in the courtroom and a juror mistakes you for the defendant?

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:21:10] You know that that was the only time that has happened that I have not had it happened before. I think that now for it at least and most of the courts that are practically in the middle Tennessee area. I've met a lot of the clerks and there are some judges that I haven't been in front of him and some just for good that I have been there from them before there one judge or particular that introduces himself to me every time I mean it's more that I go maybe every two or three months and he's always like Well welcome to the core of this issue in his car just kind of puts her head down like I know I know.

[00:21:45] Like we e-mail a lot. So you know sometimes it happens and you know because they're in the position that they're here. You know I always will defer to give them that grace because again at the end of the day I'm advocating for someone else and I have to always keep that in mind. And I want to keep their interest you know at the top of my list. And so you there if there is if it is a time where they say something they do something now wait till the case is concluded and then I'll go speak to the judge in chambers.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:18] What do you say when you go into chambers.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:22:21] So I'll just ask. You know I got out asked Mike like the one, in particular, that doesn't remember me when we go back to our side. Now I know I don't come here a lot but you know you would think they would be looking at me. You remember me at all the others that come up here and most of the time with their state they laughed like them and said oh you know I just want you know some you know something and I wasn't paying attention. I was looking at the next case or you know and then we just talk about you know other things I use that as an opportunity to advocate for things that I think to change in the law and get their perspective. So sometimes by their mistakes gives me insight and you know gives me a little bit more information that I otherwise may not have got. Had they not made the blunder.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:07] Yeah and I think how you handle those moments. It's tricky. It's hard. I mean I you know I've never been mistaken for a defendant probably examination female and you know we don't fit that stereotype. But I have been mistaken for you know whatever various Asian language interpreter or-or you know the paralegal and you know I think those type of experiences can really like wear you down if you're not careful about it. You know you internalize that and not have these conversations with my white male lawyer colleagues and know like what's a big deal. You know you brush it off and I'm like but you don't understand what walking into a place and people assume things about you just based on your look how that can just get really you know it just wears sign you and I had to say you know I can either allow this to really impact me or-or I can choose a different response. But it's not you know it's not always easy and sometimes I feel really frustrated by those sort of like what's the big deal. You I just laugh it off like but that doesn't happen to you when you when have you ever been mistaken for the defendant or the language you know the language interpreter or that you know the paralegal.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:24:32] Right yeah. So I'm a male. And so I've never been in the position of a woman before. And so I have two daughters and now that I have daughters and of course with you know the need to move and leave things in a different perspective than I would before I had children and a daughter specifically because I have three younger sisters and even still some of my perspectives was a male privilege perspective. And a lot of times like even hearing you talk about her you know white male colleagues when they say just brush it off or this or just there.

[00:25:04] I've seen myself do that too when or if a woman tells me something and says You know I feel this way about you know how that may interact with me and I would say wow I never would have considered that because I'm a male. So I don't know what it's like to be in your position. And so it is sometimes when I hear like I hear somebody or special specifically you know white male white male colleagues I believe that because of how I live they feel comfortable with asking me questions about things that they may be looking at from a lens that's not respectful of everybody else's experience. And so I use that as an opportunity to try to tell them why we're here is why it's so exhausting. Because when you get waved through I get stopped and I get one did not have to take my bill call and I it slows down my day and not only that you get to look like this great guy.

Turun just as waved through and this guy's got to take off his clothes pretty much to get to security. And so it's the perception of who's the attorney that you want to deal with. Right. The guy has waved through the looks like he is buddy buddy with everybody or the guy that didn't treat like he's trying to get on the airplane to get into the court. And so I definitely can appreciate that the sentiment that you feel about when they tell you to get away with this dog is ok it's not a big deal. And so for me, I did try to keep my try to be respectful for other people's experiences because I don't know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes. And I think that oftentimes that that value is held by those who are in the minority. It's really all about those that are in the majority.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:47] So yeah I think that you know is a person of color and it teaches you to be empathetic. I think if you're sort of in that super majority and you are always sort of given all of these privileges that is something I choose it like not I mean like I've you know I've had these conversations with my colleague and they're just like sometimes I'll get like this like this like disbelief like I really just can't believe it that happens to you all the time. Like butter. Yes. Because I think we all kind of have this assumption that the way that we experience the world is how everybody else experiences the world right. And you know and I often feel like this is sort of what happens when we talk about you know like police misconduct is like well I've never had a negative interaction with the police. I just like the right here.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:27:45] That's what's so true. And in that we're in Nassau we're having it is where the devices on that specific subject because there are people that feel like certain areas of national or over the police. And you know they feel threatened when the police are around there other people they feel like well that's you know who is come to for help or who I go to for help and I take my child with right along. So it's so different you know to have those different perspectives and that's why I always encourage people to just you know try to take a look from their perception her position to see what it's like from their perspective because you never know what it's like for someone else. And when you genuinely take the time to understand you know what they've been dealing with and you may change your mind. Like I say I tell my friends like I don't. I don't get on Facebook to say what my priest my position is on one where or another because I think most times people use their platform to read.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:46] Like reinforcing bullies.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:28:48] Yes. Yes exactly. Exactly that's it. That's what it's for. Because you want them to like it and agree with you to make you feel better about it but you really don't want to engage in a dialogue to help you learn something that you know maybe differ in the way that you've been taught. So but I think that you know that those are having those conversations are helpful to try to shift the world's perception.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:12] Yeah. So Marcus, for the listeners out there that want to check you out or want to learn more about you, where’s the best place for them to do that?

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:29:25] So the best place is on my website, that'll be shutelaw.com.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:36] So Marcus before I let you go, one final question for you. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:29:53] So to me to be a resilient lawyer to someone that knows who they are. And still, allow that to dictate how they move in their life and in their practice of law when they face challenges and obstacles in the field that there may be feeling defeated to revisit those values again. What brought you to their place to want to be inspired to move forward as you do? So that's what a resilient lawyer would be to me.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:22] Marcus, thank you so much for sharing your time with me today.

Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:30:26] Jeena, thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it.

Closing: [00:30:34] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

Hello! A short request for listener feedback. Doing a podcast can feel very lonely, like speaking into the void. Yet, there were almost 7,000 of you that listened last month! (Wow!)

Please drop me an email and let me know what conversations you're wanting to hear. What "necessary conversations" aren't being had?

Email: hello@jeenacho.com or use the form in this link: http://jeenacho.com/podcast/

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Gifford on to discuss co-writing our book, The Anxious Lawyer, her wellness routine, and life after law. Karen Gifford is COO of Ripple Labs, global leader on distributed financial technology. Previously, she worked in the financial industry, first as an attorney in the private sector and at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where she was Counsel and Officer in the Litigation and Enforcement Group. Alongside her legal and consulting career, Karen began meditating in a yoga tradition more than fifteen years ago, initially as a means of coping with the stress of her legal practice. Her executive coaching work incorporates meditation and mindfulness practices, placing a strong focus on the importance of inner skills such as detachment and resilience for effective leadership. She also teaches meditation, with an emphasis on bringing the insights of meditation into everyday life. Karen is active in the start-up world as a founder, investor and advisor. She holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and an A.B. from Vassar College.

Topics Covered

• Karen tells us on her writing process with The Anxious Lawyer, her thoughts on the end result, and how living at a meditation ashram helped her find her inner quiet, which helped formulate the thoughts for the book.
• How the internalization of the job that can lead to feeling burnt out and stuck in your career, and the importance of a wellness practice to create space and distance to stay motivated and vigilant.
• The impact that distance and awareness can have on self-reflection, both personally and professionally.
• Life after law: Finding joy in your work, always remaining sensitive to where you stand instinctually, and always looking for the obvious answer when it comes to making a transition in your career.
   

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

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Transcript

Karen Gifford: [00:00:03] Joy doesn't have to express itself with puppies and rainbows and flowers, it can also express itself in a great argument or a beautifully presented witness.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] This is The Resilient Lawyer podcast, meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and agents of change. The Resilient Lawyer is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference. This is episode number 37, I am your host Jeena Cho. Hi everyone. It's been forever since I recorded my last podcast, but I've been very busy with the launch of "The Anxious Lawyer" book and I have in studio with me Karen Gifford, my co-author.

Karen Gifford: [00:01:18] Hi Jeena, it's so great to be talking about our book together.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:24] I know, it's been such a long journey, it feels like.

Karen Gifford: [00:01:27] It sure has, it sure has. And it's just an amazing feeling to be not coming to the end of it. I don't think this is the end. But getting to the end of the work, of reading the book, creating the audio recording, going out into the world and talking about the book, that sort of thing.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:49] Yeah. So how does it feel to you?

Karen Gifford: [00:01:52] Well you know, when I first started practicing law one of the partners I worked for said about going to court, he said there's the argument you were going to make, there's the argument you actually made, and then there's the argument you would have made.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:07] Yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:02:07] And I was thinking about that with the book, and I was thinking you know I do feel a little bit like I go back and read the book and I think, oh I should have said this, or I should have said that. But all in all I'm happy with it. I don't have a big feeling like it should have been very different from how it ended up being. We were talking earlier and discussing the fact that doing the audio recording has brought us back into closer relation with the content of the book. And as I read it, I really enjoy reading it. I like what we said, and I appreciate the insights that you have in the book, and I'm happy that I remembered to say some of the things that I wanted to say. So it's good, I'm feeling pretty happy.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:56] What was the writing process like for you?

Karen Gifford: [00:03:01] Well, the writing process really had two big parts to it for me. So when we first started out writing, I got into a nice rhythm where I was getting up early and writing for three hours every day. And that was pretty wonderful, I get really sweet memories of doing that. Then maybe six months into that, I had a big interruption there was a big crisis at my office, and you and I had talked about that and I just completely got pulled away from writing. And that's pretty stressful because the work situation was quite stressful, and I also felt like I was neglecting this thing I cared about a lot. And that was rough. And then getting back into writing again, I actually felt like a relief after that, when I finally had time again. It was just nice to be doing something that I liked and cared about and was sweet, instead of dealing with a lot of crazy work crisis issues.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:09] Yeah. Is the writing itself sort of peaceful? Did you feel like the content sort of flowed out or was it is a struggle to try to find the words? What was that process like?

Karen Gifford: [00:04:22] A lot of it really flowed. I think early on, you and I spent a bunch of time laying out the chapters and talking about the things that we wanted to cover, and also talking about how we wanted to frame what we were doing. And I think that was the important work, and it was really useful. I had never really had a chance to talk about meditation practice with another lawyer in so much depth as what you and I did. We had so many meetings over coffee, meals and stuff, and talking about not only our experience of starting to meditate while practicing law, but also the reactions of our colleagues. And who was excited by it, who was really like weirded out by it, why we thought that might be the case.

[00:05:14] Once we had talked all that through and talked about the way we wanted to present meditation to lawyers, so that maybe they wouldn't have to face some of the barriers that we faced when we got started, the writing itself I guess came pretty naturally.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:32] Yeah, well I guess for the listeners that don't know you, might be helpful to give them a little bit of a background, just in terms of like what you've done throughout your career and the work that you're doing now. I think you talk your career transition in the book, but I don't know that too many people actually know what you do now.

Karen Gifford: [00:05:55] I practiced law in the private sector, I practiced at a law firm for a while when I first graduated from law school. And then I was at the New York Fed for quite some time, for eight years doing civil litigation on behalf of the Fed and also civil enforcement actions, bringing of enforcement actions. Which is pretty similar to what the SEC does. It's bringing enforcement actions either against individuals or entities who've broken the banking-related laws in one way or another.

[00:06:31] So I did that for quite some time and then left and ended up doing regulatory consulting after moving from the East Coast to the West Coast, and worked for a boutique consulting firm doing that for quite a bit of time. And after the financial crisis I just really got burnt out doing that. I felt like some of the changes I was hoping to see in the financial industry were just really taking a long time.

[00:07:05] Especially, you do a consulting project and then you leave so you don't know what happened, you come back maybe to the same company or a similar type of company, and you see the exact same issue again. And it gets discouraging. So I left consulting, maybe like five years ago now. Since then have just been doing some investing in a small way, in the FinTech industry. And also advising, spent about two years working on the management team of FinTech company, getting their compliance program set up, also helped recruit a general counsel, kind of help to get the control side organized. So I wrapped that up maybe a little over a year ago now. And so I'm now just doing advisory work and working on the book, which has been terrific.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:08] OK so when you talk about FinTech, what does that mean?

Karen Gifford: [00:08:11] What does FinTech mean? You know that's a great question also, because it means a lot of different things to different people. So you could say PayPal is a FinTech company, because it offers financial services using technology. And really everyone uses technology, even if you're using an abacus that's technology. But delivering financial services through electronic means is really what is meant by FinTech. And I got attracted to working in FinTech because I saw a lot of really entrenched problems in the financial industry.

[00:08:51] In the case of Ripple, the company where I was working, around payments and how payments are executed, the way banks do it today is really slow. It's got a lot of operational problems, it's expensive. It makes it hard to serve the people who are poorly served by the banking community. And a technology like the one that Ripple has really represents a major improvement, a major step forward, particularly in being able to do kind of small value, high volume payments. Which is what we need if we're going to serve the billion people who aren't in the formal banking system today.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:44] So there's a billion people that don't have access to checking, savings account and what we typically consider as access to financial services?

Karen Gifford: [00:09:51] Up until last year, people were saying there were 2 billion people who were capable of having a bank account, who are adults with a financial life who didn't have one. And I think there have been some pretty big strides, particularly in India, about getting people into the formal financial sector. So it's not 2 billion any more, but it's more than a billion.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:14] Obviously in the book you talk about how you sort of started your mindfulness practice. But I feel like there's parts of your story that didn't make it into the book, like you lived in a yoga ashram for some period of time. Like how did that come about?

Karen Gifford: [00:10:29] How did all of that come about? Spending time at the meditation ashram came about really through my husband, who this particular retreat center, they wanted to change their business model around a whole lot. Which sounds like a funny thing to say about a meditation retreat. And I think it was funny for them, but they had been very big and had thousands of people coming to stay there every year. And what they were finding was it had gotten bigger than they wanted it to be, and just having it be quiet and a place where people can come and be contemplative and really build their meditation practice had started to be threatened by the size of the center itself.

[00:11:20] So they were trying to downsize, not because they were having problems but because they had kind of drifted away from what they felt their core mission was. So my husband has an MBA, so he went to help with that. And it was outside the city, we were living in New York City at the time. So I really had a chance to go, I mean I did do some work in the communications department but I wasn't really.. compared to having a full-bore litigation practice, it was a chance for me to really step back a little bit. And it was terrific. It was terrific.

[00:12:02] And also while we were there, even though we're both doing some work and we had kids who were in school so there's a lot of ferrying children back and forth and the normal responsibilities of parenting, we also did get to follow the ashram's schedule, which involved daily meditation practice twice a day, a lot of quiet. There was one TV set in the whole place, you know people talked about whether we would turn the TV on or not, mostly not. There weren't a lot of magazines. It was really a very, very, quiet place intentionally so, and that was terrific. That was terrific. One thing that I experienced when I was there, and I know you're going on an extended retreat coming up next year so we'll have to compare notes.

[00:13:00] But one of the things I experienced, was when you do the same thing every day, when you are on the same schedule every day, day after day, and you're not getting a lot of outside stimulus and the kind of stimulus of every day, the internet, television, movies and even newsprint media that way. After a while, your mind gets really quiet. And in a way that I had never experienced, maybe as a kid but certainly not as an adult. And it was lovely. It was a very, very sweet experience.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:41] You say your mind becomes quiet. What does that mean, what does that feel like?

Karen Gifford: [00:13:46] So, if you notice how your mind is most of the time.. most of the time, even though you and I are talking right now, both of us I'm sure I know, if I pay attention I can see this. My mind is going, I'm thinking about what we will say next, what time I have to get home, how much studio time do we have. All of these thoughts are just kind of in the background, it's not like they're taking up my attention particularly but I know they're there. And they're just kind of buzzing you know, all the stuff that's been in the news in the past few days with the election.

[00:14:26] There's just this whirl of thoughts in the background, and I always thought that was just the environment of a mind. And it is, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's great and lovely to experience a mind where your thoughts are whirling less. And there's just more space between each thought, kind of like when we closed the doors of the recording studio and we were both noticing how lovely and quiet it was in this room, it's kind of like that.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:00] Yeah, yeah. And I always feel like these types of experiences are really difficult to try to explain in words to someone that hasn't had it. It's like trying to explain how does meditation change your mind or how does meditation feel in your own mind. It's hard to describe it in words.

Karen Gifford: [00:15:22] It's true, it's true. Because it's just like any felt experience, right? One of the things, an analogy that I have is the taste of ice cream, right? You can describe it as much as you want, with as many words as you want, but until somebody picks up the spoon and tastes ice cream they don't totally know what you mean. And the experience of having your mind get very quiet is a very particular experience, and you can ironically use words to describe it. But it's in the experiencing that it really becomes clear.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:04] So you've obviously gone through a lot of career transitions, and big career transitions really. And I think you and I have had conversations about this, but how do you think your meditation practice helped you through those pretty big transitions, or life transitions?

Karen Gifford: [00:16:24] Oh I would definitely say it helped me, probably the biggest change that I made in terms of how it felt was to stop practicing law from practicing law. I was very, very identified with being a lawyer.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:39] As most of us are, yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:16:42] Yeah, I don't know what it is about practicing law, probably practicing medicine is similar. It takes up so much of your day and also your mental space, your energy, and it's such a peculiar stance towards the world, right? That after a while you just start to identify so deeply with like, I am a lawyer, I fight for my clients. The whole framework just gets internalized, and for me to step away from that was really difficult, way more so than I thought. You think on a day when you're frustrated, you've had a fight with your opposing counsel, that's it I'm never doing this again. But then to actually stop doing it, you're not just giving up that fight with your opposing council you're giving up a whole you worldview really.

[00:17:42] So I was surprised by that, I wasn't thinking about the fact that that would feel so big. And my meditation practice I think gave me spaciousness around it, and let me see that being a lawyer is an idea. It's not real, it's not a room that you literally move into. It's just something, it's a room you've made in your mind. And you can walk out of it and you're still all the qualities that you think of yourself as having, you still have those qualities. I think also another thing I went through is thinking, okay I'm never going to work again. I think a lot of litigators go through that, because we're jacks of all trade. We don't really know anything deeply. I used to say I only know something if somebody's been fighting about it.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:38] Which is so true, yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:18:39] Right? And I thought, well who wants a regulatory lawyer? I'll never find a job doing what I was doing, and that turned out to just totally be my own trip. It was actually pretty easy to find work, and I didn't even know that regulatory consulting was a thing. But it's actually a pretty big thing that happened during the time I was practicing law. So it wasn't just my thing, my meditation practice made me open to trying something and realizing the difference between not knowing what was going to happen and disaster happening, right?

Jeena Cho: [00:19:31] Right, your mind thinks, oh my god I'm never going to work again, I'm going to become homeless. But that's not the reality of the situation, yeah. So when you decided you were going to leave law, was it a particular moment or was it a transition, or was it a set of experiences where you were like, okay I think I need to leave. And then a year later, you finally made that decision. How did that process come about? Because I feel like this is something that I talk to a lot of lawyers about. They sort of know that being a lawyer is no longer the right career for them, but they don't know what's after that so then there's that fear of what am I going to do, what's my livelihood going to be? And I guess I'm curious about that decision-making process. Or maybe it's a felt experience, I don't know.

Karen Gifford: [00:20:23] It certainly was a felt experience, for sure. And for me, it was something that unfolded over some time. So, part of it was trying to reconcile legal practice with parenting. So I was doing litigation, so there were always all these deadlines and I had done this big trial and promised my family that I was going to have time for them after the trial was over. Well, no sooner did I come back from doing the trial than six weeks later I was at this pre-trial conference that was meant, I thought was a scheduling conference. So we were going to be talking about something that was going to happen in a year, and my opposing counsel gets up and is like, "We want this to go right now!" And I was like, whatever. And the judge is like, okay fine, you're on for in two months. And I just watched my whole life, all my plans for hanging out with my kids and everything, go up in smoke. So that was big, that was a big part of it.

[00:21:38] And then, I tried working part time and I didn't really like being a part time lawyer for a lot of different reasons. So that was that was going on, and then also I think this is a big thing that happens with lawyers, we just get to a point where we've done what we've come to do in practicing law. I had done a couple of big trials and some smaller ones, and I'd written a lot. I'd written a lot of briefs, I'd written position papers, written speeches for different Fed officials, and it just felt like it was of a piece, like I wasn't going to make it more complete than it was.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:30] Yeah, yeah that makes sense. Yeah. And I think just that knowing requires a lot of awareness you know, almost like a day-to-day or week-by-week. So many of us just end up in this habitual pattern, where we just get up and do the thing that we're supposed to do. And all of a sudden years go by, and then we wake up one morning like wait. We don't really pause to assess our life and actually have those kinds of reflections. I mean for me, that's where sort of the day-to-day, having that moment of quiet has been super helpful because it's not like I get up one morning and think, I think I'm going to quit practicing law today. But you're actually making a little bit of space to have those thoughts about, oh well you know like what you said, now I feel like the work that I came here to do feels more complete than it did a year ago or two years ago.

Karen Gifford: [00:23:26] That is such a good point, that is such a good point. I certainly have that tendency to just get caught up in the day-to-day, and not step back and sort of look at what am I doing. That's probably one of the biggest changes that meditation has brought in my life, and it has so many implications. Certainly for career, and also for relationships. In terms of seeing my own nonsense, you know? They pay me to fight, right, so like I'm a righty person so I'd always want to be right with my spouse or my kids.

[00:24:07] And stepping back from that and going, wait a minute. Just look at this from the other person's perspective. I wasn't that capable of doing that years ago, and I feel really happy that it's not my first instinct, but it does it does come up. That, oh this other person might have a point of view here.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:32] Yeah. Something I've been thinking more about is, obviously we both practiced litigation, this idea of knowing joy in the work that you do on a day-to-day basis. And whether that's possible when you're a litigator, especially in the context of the litigation system; the way it exists now, or has sort of been very traditionally. I find so many lawyers, like I talk about happiness and joy because you know, why else are we on this planet? I don't mean it in a trite sense, right? I don't mean it like, I get to have a bowl of ice cream so therefore I'm happy. But more of that deeper sense of feeling like the work that you're doing is meaningful, and finding joy in that. And I'm curious, when you're doing litigation do you feel like you had a joyful life? Is there a way you can have both?

Karen Gifford: [00:25:39] I like to think that. I do see a lot that isn't consonant with that, in the way that litigation is practiced today. There's a lot of just you know, things get personal really quickly unfortunately. And kind of the level of professionalism has declined unfortunately. So that's a problem, that's hard you know. I don't want to say that you can just joy your way through that.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:19] It's not like a, fake it til you feel it kind of thing.

Karen Gifford: [00:26:21] No, and there is a real joy in expressing who you are. And sometimes who you are is a great litigator, right? Joy doesn't have to express itself with puppies and rainbows and flowers. It can also express itself in a great argument or you know, a beautifully presented witness. I've certainly had those moments where I felt that way, and interestingly I think those moments when you really do feel very deeply joyous or contented or happy with how things go in a work setting, they're not the ones where you're saying the nasty thing or scoring a cheap point. They're the ones where you feel like not only are you making your self shine, but you're making the whole system shine. Like if you think about those really big moments in your career, everyone felt uplifted.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:33] Regardless of who won or lost, yeah. And I've also had experiences where the client didn't get the outcome that he or she wanted, but felt deeply cared for throughout the case. And somehow they didn't feel more.. You know I think a lot of times when you come out of the litigation system you can feel more broken than when you went in, I think that's the majority of the case. But if you can sort of help your clients through.

Karen Gifford: [00:28:03] Oh absolutely. And I can't imagine that for you in a bankruptcy practice, that must have been a huge challenge. Because it's just such a rough time that people are going through. And you've spoken so eloquently about the really heartbreaking sides to a bankruptcy; it's not just a money thing. I think making people feel that the system at least cared about them is a huge step forward.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:41] Do you ever miss practicing law?

Karen Gifford: [00:28:46] You know, not enough to go back to it. I really loved it when I was doing it, but when I think about practicing law I have that feeling that I was saying before, like I really did with it what I wanted to do. I don't feel like oh, if only I had X, Y, or Z. But it was great, it was great when I was doing it.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:15] So for the listeners out there that are considering some sort of transition, either staying in law or out of law. Any particular advice that you might want to offer them?

Karen Gifford: [00:29:33] Well, when I was thinking about these changes and they did feel momentous to me, one thing that I told myself was I'm going to make a decision, and it's going to be obvious. The answer is going to be obvious. And I just stuck to that. And you know, there are pluses and minuses in everything you do. And looking back, I think maybe I stuck to practicing law like six months or a year longer than maybe I probably should have. On the other hand, I have the satisfaction of knowing that it was obvious by the time I made that decision, and that worked for me. And so if that's how you're feeling, you're really unsure and you're not comfortable with that, I think you can have the confidence to know that your instincts are going to take you in the right place. And that you can get to a place where you're absolutely comfortable with whatever decision you make, whether it's to stay with the practice, leave, go part-time; whatever variation makes sense for you, your own instincts are going to guide you well.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:46] I love that. So the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Karen Gifford: [00:30:55] Oh, that's such an interesting thing to reflect on. I think the practice of law has a lot of challenges. And really, if we take the practice seriously, those challenges can really implicate our core values, implicate what kind of people we want to be, and being resilient in the face of those challenges to me means engaging with them fully, and also staying anchored in our core values and our commitment to ourselves, as well as to all that we want to accomplish.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:36] Beautiful, I love that answer. Karen thank you so much for joining me.

Karen Gifford: [00:31:42] Thank you Jeena for having me. It's just such a huge pleasure.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:48] Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please consider telling a friend. It's really the only way we have to grow the show. Also, why not leave a review on iTunes. It only takes a minute, and really does help with the visibility and promotion of the show. If you have any questions, drop me an email at questions@theresilientlawyer.com. Until next time.

Closing: [00:32:14] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Gifford on to speak on heartfullness; its definition, its application, and its benefit. Karen Gifford is COO of Ripple Labs, global leader on distributed financial technology. Previously, she worked in the financial industry, first as an attorney in the private sector and at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where she was Counsel and Officer in the Litigation and Enforcement Group. Alongside her legal and consulting career, Karen began meditating in a yoga tradition more than fifteen years ago, initially as a means of coping with the stress of her legal practice. Her executive coaching work incorporates meditation and mindfulness practices, placing a strong focus on the importance of inner skills such as detachment and resilience for effective leadership. She also teaches meditation, with an emphasis on bringing the insights of meditation into everyday life. Karen is active in the start-up world as a founder, investor and advisor. She holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and an A.B. from Vassar College.

Topics Covered

• Karen defines the term "heartfullness" and the many ideas and attributes that make up this emotion and act, as well as its role in the legal profession.
• Breaking down the barriers and stigmas that come with heartfullness and awareness to ones emotional state.
• How one cultivates this quality of heartfullness and the many ways of reaching a sense of being heart-centered.
• The similarities and differences of heartfullness and gratitude.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Karen Gifford: [00:00:02] There is something about the courage it takes to go and you know fight boldly and the courage it takes to be with yourself.

Intro: [00:00:15] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer Podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:34] This is The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and agents of change. The Resilient Lawyer is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference. This is episode 39. I am your host, Jeena Cho. On this episode, I have Karen Gifford and we are going to chat about heartfullness and gratitude.

Karen Gifford: [00:01:03] That's great, thanks Jeena. These conversations are really just terrific.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:12] And it's so funny because I've been saying I want to have you on my podcast for, I don't know, the past two years.

Karen Gifford: [00:01:18] Something like that, and I've been saying, oh that's a great idea. I'd love to do that. So at least we're doing it now.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:25] Yeah. So heartfullness, what does that mean?

Karen Gifford: [00:01:29] Heartfullness is a term that I think I made up to capture a whole group of qualities. So I would say courage, boldness, generosity, kindness, compassion; all are qualities that come from the heart. And we don't necessarily think of them as connected, but you know they are. And my own experience in legal practice is that legal practice brings those all out; and legal practice also tends to attract people who are heartful people, who have that constellation of qualities can right up front.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Yeah I think when we talk about the heart, especially as legal professionals, we're like oh no the heart, that's messy. And you know law practice is supposed to be very sort of clinical, and we don't want to involve the heart. So how do those sort of qualities, which all feel very messy and difficult, play into our legal role as lawyers?

Karen Gifford: [00:02:45] Well you know, I think this is one of the un-admitted aspects of the legal profession, right? Is that one of the things that we don't think about is that it's a service profession.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:57] Yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:02:58] And the people who are drawn to it, whether consciously or not, there's something that really speaks to them about representing a client and helping that person; being of service. Those kinds of people are the people who are heart-forward people.

[00:03:17] Yes we're also we also tend to be brainy. And that feels safe to talk about. We don't necessarily feel safe talking about the fact that we're also a very committed, warm group of people. And yet, get a bunch of lawyers together and it tends to be a pretty warm crowd. People talk a lot, there's a lot of joking. A lot of war stories are told; we're great storytellers. All of that should give you a hint that it's about more than just intellecting our way through our practice.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:55] Yeah. I don't know about you, but I always found that lawyers are in many ways very afraid of their own emotional world. So how is that connected to this idea of heartfullness, and how do we start to make space for it. You know, for our own emotional world and that sort of heartfullness quality?

Karen Gifford: [00:04:26] Well this is where meditation can really be very, very useful, right? One of the nice things about having a meditation practice is after a while you start to know yourself better. And a lot of things that seemed really scary or uncomfortable, you realize they're not actually that big a deal. It's not that big a deal to be a warm-hearted person. It's not that big a deal to admit you have feelings of kindness, that you feel protective towards your client, that you want to do a good job. Right? All of that stuff is less threatening viewed with some spaciousness. So for myself, meditation was really, really key in acknowledging that. And I think it's useful for most lawyers.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Do you think a lot of this comes from sort of you know, these sort of ideas about what lawyers are supposed to act like, the thoughts lawyers should have and feel? And I think the legal profession has been very masculine for forever really. I don't know, because to me it's like a lot of these qualities that we're talking about has feminine traits.

[00:05:46] And I don't mean that in a gender sense, but sort of being more in-tune with your emotions, or even like thinking about the heart. Even though I think the heart can have this fierce quality to it. But it does have this sort of feminine overtone. And I don't know, to me it feels new and I don't know, just being a lawyer and making room. I mean I think it makes us better lawyers when we're sort of bringing our whole selves into the picture and our law practice.

Karen Gifford: [00:06:24] Sure, absolutely. What you're pointing out isn't something that I have thought about a lot but I think it's true. I mean it's obviously true, that women tend to be more comfortable acknowledging their emotional sides than men. And that's you know, nature or nurture. It's the case in our society today. And I agree with you, it's to the good. It's really to the good. It's probably a way in which our profession is changing; that's great.

[00:06:52] When I started practicing law, especially I was doing commercial and financial litigation, it was so masculine. I don't think I even really thought about that so much. I did see the logic and reason versus heart side to legal profession, but I wasn't thinking about masculine versus feminine. But it's an aspect in acknowledging what's there, but I think heartfullness is something I think of as a very balanced energy. You know, I think we talk about this a little bit in the book, but there's a lot of warrior traditions that are also meditation traditions. And it's not necessarily from the intellectual side of meditation, right? So the Zen monks who had this great meditation practice and fearlessness were super inspiring to the samurai warriors who encountered them, and then those traditions kind of melded with each other.

[00:07:50] But the sort of fierceness of the samurai got blended into the discipline of the Zen tradition, and I don't think that's an accident. I think that there is something about the courage it takes to go and you know, fight boldly. And the courage it takes to be with yourself; there is a very clear analogy between the two stances. So that's a very masculine example, but there's plenty of examples of the feminine side of heartfullness. We were talking last time about compassion practice, and that could be seen as a very feminine flavor of heartfullness.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:40] Yeah. Yeah and I guess when I was talking about it in the legal profession, that I feel like we never really had a balance in terms of these two qualities. And I think now we're just trying to figure out at this point what does that even look like, to bring qualities like heartfullness and compassion into the legal practice. And also, I feel like those qualities are needed for me to practice law in a way that feels whole, where I feel like I can bring all of myself into the law practice. I mean if I had to walk into every client meeting very detached and clinical, I feel like I would lose something in the relationship with my client.

Karen Gifford: [00:09:25] Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I also think, we were talking much earlier about the loss of professionalism in legal practice; I believe that being connected with your heart is a really good grounding strategy, that helps you stay professional even in very contentious situations. Right? There's just a dividing line between when it gets personal and not constructive. And when you are defending something that's worth defending or fighting for something that's right.

[00:10:05] And of course there's edge cases always, right? And different people might come out differently on very specific things. But overall I know when I keep that in mind, I don't practice law anymore but I still get into contentious negotiations or whatever, when I keep that in mind I can be very strong without crossing the line into behavior that I don't want to have.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:35] And I think a lot of that comes down to sort of the intent. Like am I acting in this really aggressive way because I'm feeling spiteful? Why am I acting in this really aggressive way? And I think you can act in a very aggressive way but come from a very heart-centered place. Where it's like, okay I have to act this way because it's in the best interest of my client. And I'm able to sort of see that being aggressive in this circumstance makes sense, but I'm not coming from this place of negativity and hostility.

Karen Gifford: [00:11:13] Right, and being able to see the whole picture, right? Like I think of it sometimes as like the "mama bear perspective." Like a mama bear is very fierce, but if she burned down the whole forest there wouldn't be anything for what she's trying to protect or whatever. Going beyond what the situation calls for or what's right in the larger context is something you can avoid if you have the spaciousness to remember that there is a bigger picture, and that you're part of that picture.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:55] You remember like a long time ago, I was really struggling with how do I stay in litigation and do the work that I'm doing without just completely abandoning myself. And we've had many lengthy conversations about the Bhagavad Gita and that whole story about.. and I think that's a story at its essence about heartfullness, right?

Karen Gifford: [00:12:21] I see it that way, so the Bhagavad Gita is one of the core myths of the yoga tradition and the Hindu religion. And just super briefly, the context for it is there's these two sides of the family and to oversimplify, you could say there were the bad cousins, the mean cousins, and then there were these five brothers who were the good cousins. And that is an oversimplification, but they have all these conflicts and they finally can't work them out and they're going to go to battle and one of the brothers are Arjuna is getting ready. He's like the strongest warrior of the brothers, and he's in his chariot, he's getting ready to go fight.

[00:13:14] And he goes to look across the battlefield, and he looks across the battlefield and he sees his cousins and his uncles and his teachers, and he's just bereft. He thinks I cannot do this; I cannot fight this fight. And Krishna is his charioteer, and he and Krishna have this conversation about how do you have this fight. And that's the Bhagavad Gita, is their conversation about you know, what stance do you take when you think the battle is impossible? And there's many, many different answers that they discuss over the course of this conversation. And it is a parable because no one in the yoga tradition would say you should actually commit violence against your relatives or anyone else. But it's a very dramatic way of framing a situation when you're called to do something that just feels too hard. And how do you face that situation with strength and determination, but also without losing yourself; without becoming the kind of person that would kill your cousins? I've always really drawn a lot of inspiration from that story and you know, there's so many different answers to the question of how do you face that battle. But one of the many is that you can just go, you're in this situation not of your own making. And you need to face it with integrity, right. And if Arjuna in the story, if he had walked away and said like, okay I'm not going to fight my cousins. It's not like there would have been peace in the land.

[00:15:08] There would have been like, you know the wrong people would have triumphed, his relatives would have been killed, nothing good would have come of him walking away, so he had to fight. So it's that feeling of how do I engage with integrity, without getting caught up in the negativity of what the situation is also presenting?

Jeena Cho: [00:15:28] Yeah, yeah, which so often is a situation we're faced with as lawyers. We can recuse ourselves from the case, but that doesn't mean the battle is going to stop.

Karen Gifford: [00:15:40] Right, or our client will be okay.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:46] And we're sort of forced to become these hired warriors or worriers that fight on behalf of our clients. And how do you do that with your integrity intact and not completely lose yourself? In what can you know often be sort of dirty, is that the right word? Not so pleasant, yeah.

Karen Gifford: [00:16:15] And another thing I love about that story is, Arjuna is not dehumanized. He's looking at the situation, he's like it would be better to die here right now today than have to fight the fight that I'm fighting. He's very, very human and he's not asking, how do I win this war? He's asking, how I go into battle? And I just think that's a great framing of the question, that we are part of the picture as lawyers. We are human beings in a situation. We're not tools, we're not inhuman beings. And to your point earlier about logic and reason versus the heart. I think that is where the heart comes in, is recognizing the human sides of ourselves. That we're not just computers fighting these fights. We are human beings, and there will be implications for ourselves and how we think about ourselves, based on how we act when in challenging situations.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:29] And I think to your point or in the story, not going in and saying okay how do I win this battle? And I think the outcome is oftentimes not really up to us, like we only have control over so much. And how do we do the best that we can, given the set of circumstances that are completely beyond our control? And what does that look like?

Karen Gifford: [00:17:54] Yeah, no thank you for raising that. That is another super important aspect of this story, but also aspect of what we deal with when we practice law. I always say, lawyers are so crazy because we're all a bunch of control freaks stuck in situations we can't control at all. And it is very crazy-making, if the only thing that you're focused on is the outcome. Right? Which, just realistically, we all want the best possible outcome for our clients.

[00:18:27] And that's absolutely true, and that's probably the one thing we can't guarantee. Judges get arbitrary, witnesses say things we weren't expecting, clients decide that they want to settle cases on terms that we don't even agree with or they do goofball things that we weren't expecting. So we are just not in control of the outcome. But what we are in control of is our engagement with the situation, and how we are as human beings and how we do our best.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:03] So for lawyers that want to try to cultivate this quality of heartfullness, how do you do it? What's the technique?

Karen Gifford: [00:19:15] There's so many things you can do, that's the good news. One easy thing is, so my own meditation practice is very heart-centered. And a simple heart-centered practice is mantra repetition. There is something about, so mantra repetition is just repeating a word or phrase as the technique that you use to center yourself. And all meditation techniques use one means or another of just kind of centering yourself, helping your mind get quiet.

[00:19:51] But with mantra repetition, there is something about that in and of itself that tends to kind of pull your attention and your focus into your physical heart. And that has repercussions. It also has a tendency, there's something about repeating a word or phrase, I've been told it has to do with the fact that it improves concentration so much; it's called a concentrative practice. It tends to make you feel happy. And that just very naturally pulls you into your heart.

[00:20:37] So your meditation practice can reinforce your heartfullness, doing service. If you're not actively practicing law right now, which you know can be you can just recognize the service component of what you're doing already. You can also do volunteer work, engage with people that way. That can connect you with your heartful side. Things like we were talking about in the last podcast, about doing compassion practice, brings you into your heart. All those things, and there's many more that can just bring out the kind of sweet side of life.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:26] How does heartfullness tie into or connect with the practice of gratitude?

Karen Gifford: [00:21:33] Well, gratitude is a great practice that engages the heart, right.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:42] If you see it as two separate practices, or do you see gratitude as falling sort of under the umbrella of heartfullness?

Karen Gifford: [00:21:50] I see it as falling under the umbrella of heartfullness. I would say that gratitude, to me is one of many ways to connect to the heart. It's one stance towards the heart that is a very powerful one. If you feel grateful, you're immediately in your heart, right there. Like instantaneously. I had a meditation teacher say being grateful is like giving your heart a bath.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:21] I love that analogy. Beautiful.

Karen Gifford: [00:22:24] Very renewing. Yeah, refreshing.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:27] And sometimes you hear these practices, like write down three things you're grateful for every day. You know, whatever these sort of practices are. And there's sometimes a sense like, oh that's such a simple, almost kindergarten practice, and we want the more advanced stuff. Like where are the more advanced practices. Yeah, like doing those simple (I'm using air quotations right now) practices really make such a huge difference. Even just having a daily meditation practice makes a huge difference.

Karen Gifford: [00:23:04] Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that we have to get past as lawyers who have made a big effort to get where we are, is that a lot of these practices are deceptively transformative. It doesn't seem like it should have such a big effect to remember three things that we're grateful for every day, but if you really do it and you do it consistently, it has an enormous effect.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:35] Yeah. And I always notice it like, once I've sort of fallen out of the practice for some period of time and then I kind of go back into it. It's like, oh right. Like that's why I was doing this practice, because it does have such a big impact. But I think that deceptiveness of its simplicity can make us feel like, oh I don't know. And I often feel that way about meditation, like I'm going to just sit quietly for five minutes, like what's that going to do? But it does. And, yeah. And also I think for the skeptics out there, try it. Try it for 21 days or a month, for some period of time, and see if it makes a difference in your own life.

Karen Gifford: [00:24:24] Right, right. Absolutely, absolutely. Why do it if it's not working for you? But these are practices that generally do work. Not every single thing will resonate with every single person, but there's so many different great ways to engage the heart and engage with meditation, chances are something is going to resonate.

[00:24:49] One of the reasons why we get baffled by these practices, why they seem too easy, is in our society we act as though we don't need to take care of our minds. We just treat them like are the background, and then we fill them up with every kind of garbage in the world, and then we wonder why we feel bad. And I say this as somebody who's as guilty as anyone else, I can spend all kinds of time doing nonsense social media that makes me feel frustrated and angry, and then I wonder why I feel frustrated and angry afterwards.

[00:25:30] So just taking a little time to attend to the state of our minds can have a big payoff. One of the reasons why that seems surprising is no one ever has told us to do that.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:46] Yeah, and I think sort of having those good mental hygiene, just like any other hygienic practices that we do. I often notice whenever I start slipping into long periods of having insomnia, it's because I've fallen out of those sleep-hygiene practices that I put into place. And I think similarly, when I don't meditate and when I'm not getting enough movement, all those things can kind of make your mind feel like, I don't know if lazy is the right word but like less clarity. Where you just feel like there's this fog..

Karen Gifford: [00:26:28] And I'm more reactive, I'm more crabby. There's no real reason for me to be, it's just that very thing is that if you neglect something, that doesn't work as well. Surprise.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:48] Yeah.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:53] Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please consider telling a friend. It's really the only way we have to grow the show. Also, why not leave us a review on iTunes? It only takes a minute, and really does help with the visibility and promotion of the show. If you have any questions, e-mail me at questions@resilientlawyer.com, or you can find me on Twitter @Jeena_Cho or @AnxiousLawyer.

Closing: [00:27:21] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Chelsey Lambert on the show to speak on different technology and products for lawyers and her website, lextechreview.com. Chelsey is a Legal Technology Specialist, published author, and CLE speaker. As a former Practice Management Advisor for the Chicago Bar Association and executive for legal technology companies, she has seen our industry from many angles. She recently founded the legal technology blog LexTechReview.com, where she reviews products lawyers can use to run their business and teaches tech training classes.

Topics Covered

• Chelsey opens with talking about her thoughts on being one of the few women in the male-dominated field of law technology and how her time invested in the field has paid off.
• Why so many firms are afraid of adopting new and pioneering technology out of fear of change, and the benefits of taking the leap into new technology to keep your firm running as efficiently as possible.
• The importance of needs assessments, and investing the time and money into learning how to utilize the programs and have it ready for you.
• The differences between legal-specific tech and tools to non-legal specific, and the importance of the distinction depending on where your firm is and it's specific needs.For more information on Chelsey, find her at the following sites:

Twitter: @chelseylambert
            @lextechreview

Website: www.lextechreview.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Transcript

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.  

Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] My friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am delighted to have Chelsea Lambert who is a legal technology specialist, author and speaker as a former practice management adviser for the Chicago Bar Association and executive for legal technology companies. She's seen in our industry from so many different angles. She recently founded the legal technology blog LexTechReview.com where she reviews products lawyers can use to run their businesses, and teaches tech training classes. And I know that I can certainly use Chelsea's help like so many other solo attorneys, because I sometimes feel like managing my technology for my firm is like a full-time job in itself. So I'm really excited to have Chelsea share her wisdom and her knowledge on this topic.

[00:01:31] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. It was a few episodes ago, I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice, to help you let go of stress and anxiety. And it's particularly great for this time of year because I know for me it's always a stressful time. And so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should meditate and practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell them you know what, just start with six minutes. Start with just .1 hour. All the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have just one .1 hour for yourself? And so I created a program, it's called Mindful Pause and it's designed for lawyers like you so that you can fit it into your very hectic schedule. So head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com. Or you could also look at the show notes.  And with that here is Chelsea. Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer podcast.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:02:50] Oh thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do, of course, they provide it's been a great service and help to a lot of similar space that just you know need some more balance and an A level that reset button every now.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:05] Thank you so much. So let's start by just having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:03:14] Yeah absolutely. So I have a legal technology blog called Lex Tech Review. My passion is training and providing education on ARIAD solutions that we work within our daily lives at the office and also schools and apps that we use to help. The US get more done in our inner lives at home. So I provide webinars. I write articles and reviews. I recently published the legal technology buyer's guide which is another shopper's handbook for anyone who's trying to navigate this. Crazy ocean of providers that we have now there are over 700 solutions available in different categories whether it's case management virtual receptionist’s services or even courses like yours is listed in the guide. So if anybody is in that shopping's days right now they might want to check that out and then try and teach as often as I can online or at a bar association.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:18] So you know we've sort of bumped into each other in the legal tech space or that world. And we met one family one of those conferences and I think that I'm often just so surprised to see as just how male tremendous field is the legal tech space and I've written articles just this is where I go on my crisis as so many legal technology conferences are just like you know white male techs that seem to just completely dominate this base of any age and it's totally crazy.

[00:04:59] So yeah I mean I'm just curious like what is it like to be one of the few. I mean I know I can probably count and like one or two hands just a number of women that are in that in the space of Biegel technologies so you know what is that like.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:05:16] Yeah. So you know I was really fortunate to have kind of fallen back into this space when I was 22 and did my first stage show that year. And you know my perspective there is a tremendous amount of opportunity to make a name for yourself and establish a personal birthright mountains and really come into your own as a woman in the legal tack. If you have the determination persistence and just straight up grit to make it happen because there is you know you're going to get there there's that you know you're going to get the conversation that you don't want to hear you're going to.

[00:06:05] Be judged based on how you look you're going to get that leg just naturally because you're one in a sea of like tens of thousands. Right. So that's a nice starting so young in this space I think was helpful because I knew that this is where I wanted to invest my career. Like I love working with law firms and solo lawyers like I can. My parents were small business owners and I think in so many of the challenges that solo and small firm attorneys faced the challenges that my family went through when I was growing up like when you. Have that at the office it doesn't work like they're raving about it at the dinner table at all. I've lived that before I was even in that space so you know over the years I think some of the challenges that you have to overcome is.

[00:06:54] Unfortunately just proving that you are actually smart. You know like having people like I worked I worked almost every single conference in the legal space all over the country. You know trekking boxes and trade show materials all over the place in my heels and you know breaking nails and putting bulls together you know and all of that stuff.

[00:07:17] And that's part of my journey. And you know as hard of it as it was it is forbidden to say it's time to get in front of thousands of attorneys to meet and build relationships with bar associations all over the country. And you just have to. For me at least I just have to really keep at it. And once I you know like he was talking before we started. Once you kind of climb that mountain and you establish credibility and you build a reputation of integrity and. Respect and trustworthiness in this space and you kind of cross the cement on the other side of that mountain that is just killing fields like the amount of opportunity for women who build a name for themselves in the legal tech community is pretty astounding. Namely because quite honestly we have a crazy diversity problem.

[00:08:18] So oftentimes like I wonder if I'm getting picked for the panel based on the fact that we need a woman to feed their diversity in my mind is actually valuable which like I would love to believe that I'm providing really useful material to my audience and it's actually a motivator for me to do that. Like I always have to make sure you know my presentations are on point and that I'm giving like so much value that people are coming up afterward you know asking for a follow-up call or something like that Rick. I just want them to be overwhelmed with information and resources. But also you know I've been lucky enough over the last few years to finally crest you know the summit and I feel like I'm on the other side of that hill climb.

[00:09:04] Now when you're going through the climb you just got like you know you're going to have to have a little bit of a thick skin because as much as I don't want to admit it or talk about it and I don't want this to be the focus of the call there is still kind of like that mentality like you know you get asked like oh he work outside the home or like you know where is her husband and that has evidence. Like a person. Who somehow. So there's still a little bit of that it's much much better now and I have to say that it was five or ten years ago we were dramatically different.

[00:09:40] I feel like it's the playing field is leveled out much more so than it was 10 years ago and I think that also has to do with just maturity and may not be 20 20 years.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] Feel like your whole different standard as. And like all taxpayers other.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:10:05] I feel like it is whether it's self-imposed. You know look I'm a pretty critical of myself and just think that Taipei you know OCV no personality. My mom hires brutes just would also show that I feel like I impose my own. Expectations on myself. Because I don't want there to be an opportunity for anyone to take a jab or discredit me in it. Like I don't want to give that opportunity outright. And then also I know like the standard I feel like women in general.

[00:10:49] Are critical of themselves. Like there's so much in the media. You know I have this conversation like I have I'm very lucky to have a social circle and purposefully so of really successful. You know also the women who you know professionally have done very well for themselves because we can relate to each other. And I feel like we're the pressures that we impose on ourselves. Like ok well I have to make sure that I'm dressed appropriately and that I'm working out that I'm eating healthy and then I'm also like on top of my game from a work perspective that oh my gosh there's and if there is a typo newsletter. You're like really about it like a day.

[00:11:35] You know you're going to get that attorney that comes back you know highlights a paragraph of something that you wrote it rips it to shreds and here goes. You know you internalize a lot of it because I feel like we have we imposed in some cases a double standard on ourselves of. You have to be perfect in every area of your life. And it's you know in your professional career as well. And so. I do feel those pressures my related to the industry. We work with attorneys and it's who some argue for a living and that's really where you know just coming back to that thick skin. I know that there's always going to be in a room of four or five hundred people there's going to be that one or that two that comes up to me and tells me how I should talk my second.

[00:12:27] I'm ready for it. Like I'm just ready for it. And like you also have to have to have an open mind because those are also opportunities to work. Like maybe I could have done better. So to answer your question I think we-we I personally impose a higher standard and level of expectation on myself because I am fearful of a situation occurring where you know I would be I would be put on the spot and made an example of because you know I'm a woman. And it's also it also varies depending on where you are working you know like I said I've spoken in.

[00:13:11] States all over the U.S. and you will see a different viewpoint when you will you know speaking in Texas or Mississippi or Florida or you know California. You know it does very much differ based on how progressive the geographic location.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:30] One my reasons is legal and all male speakers have sort of response and I often get as well we just couldn't find any that they wanted the best speakers. And I'm suggesting that somehow I've invited a woman or person of color that they would be lowering their standards like that you know that in fact, they couldn't find anyone to speak on that particular topic. That is either a man or a person of color. Like. How did how do you respond to that?

Chelsey Lambert: [00:14:09] So it's an unfortunate you know I put the last two conferences that aren't attended. I think even at one point took a picture of the states when they brought all the speakers up because it was you know like 10 for 10 or 12 or 12 all you know the typical white male speaker and you know it's just kind of disappointing get in the audience. I could have picked out like three women that were that great. I think that is something that we can acknowledge. But at the same time where is from my perspective. Where is that expert? Where should that effort the spent and I come from you know like sales and an entrepreneurial background?

[00:14:53] So my attitude around it is while I'm just going to flood the market with so much content and so much value and I'm going to reach out to a bar association for a month and know that I'm available and me and build relationships with these conferences so that when it does come time to speakers that I've best positioned myself to be chosen because I think it's like if I dedicate that energy to trying to make an issue out of it I think it needs the issue more than it does the solution right now. You know that's really the struggle that I have with you I recognize that it is happening.

[00:15:39] Absolutely. I think that you know Adriana Artist as actual chair did and the rideable job of really changing the percentage and profile of the overall tech faculty. I mean that there were more women speakers at a tech show last year than I think that I've ever seen previously and it was something that just kind of happened under you know behind the scenes that weren't like a calling it out. But it was just almost every room that I would walk in it was like oh that's refreshing.

[00:16:10] Oh wow. Hey, it was kind of like this women's day like tomorrow we're going to be all guys I know it was just it was prevalent through the whole thing and that was really refreshing. I mean it's horrible that you know we have to call it out and say that but that's really what I see is that it's not true.

[00:16:29] You know women like us in the industry to really push forward and get on as many panels as we can and provide as much content as we can and flood the marketplace with quality material so that it was an inspiration and a motivator for other women to get involved because we are also responsible for mentoring and grooming and being you know the role models for the ones that are going to come after us. And you know I jumped at the opportunity to help another woman making a name for her in this space cause.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:14] We make sure we slammed the door behind us. And I think as women and we have an obligation to make sure that the people that are perhaps even more marginalized like women lawyers of color and other folks also kind of get their fair share of you know time and space and have their voices be heard because we really need just more diversity and inclusiveness in our profession than we care and it's just often just feels like it's an echo chamber. And I actually just stopped. Like and so like for me personally I'm like when I see the lack of diversity like I will just e-mail the organizers off the line and say like hey I just noticed that I know it's an attendee at your conference. You had you know male speakers to women speakers and none of them was a color.

[00:18:06] As a woman of color. It makes me feel like I don't belong with that I don't have a place in your confidence and that's something you might keep in mind for future conferences and most of the time they're very appreciative and nice I will change. And then if they don't know if it's like a persistent continuing problem then maybe I'll write an article about it because I don't like advocacy and I'm certainly not suggesting like this suddenly that everyone should do. That's something that I choose to do. I'm going to call bullshit. I see. And you know and I'm not going to be like I'm just going to play nice and pretend that this isn't happening. It's just so obvious and blatant.

[00:18:49] So now you know and I think that's also where being an ally is really important that if you're a male and like you know you might think like well you know I'm just so white do. Like what can I do to be part of the part of this solution? And that's also something that you can do is if you go to a conference and there are so many well it's you know there's a disproportionate number of white males speaking you might just say hey you know what I attended your conference and I noticed that there is a lack of women and black people of color at the conference and I think that actually is perhaps more powerful than a woman or person of color short of men it could be perceived as just like whining or complaining about you know not having your fair space. Whereas I think it's a white male coming stepping forward and saying that it can be more powerful.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:19:40] So I mean just yeah it and it was you know my first positions on 88 committees. You know I was nominated by my met. So you know you really have to. And my mentor you know all of my mentors almost all of my mentors support to have. And you have to have good friends versus well throughout your career but you have been men and so you have to as you know to seek out people who proactively you have to grow actively seek out people who recognize they you have the value and intelligence and you know a lot to give and contribute in this space.

[00:20:25] And then you have to ask like I think that there is one thing that really you know it's like you read Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In. It's you know you are responsible for going to taking your seat at the table. You know so it's I really cannot hammer that point home enough. You know we are responsible. Everything in your career and life. It's really cool. It's a sale of some kind.

[00:20:49] I know that as lawyers and we you know we don't always like the word selling we don't like the word sale but you are not leaving yourself every step of the way and it's your responsibility to find those advocates and you ask like an equal who is reasonable and blatant about it. Like I want to be involved in this magazine. I want to speak at this conference. All right. You know what do I need to do to get there and then I'll wavering we persisted until you get to the other side because that's the whole climb you know and that's really it for me. That was kind. It was just constant you know constant accent constant you know but when you ask you are show up and you know that's the other part of it too is the follow through.

[00:21:39] So if you ask for the world and somebody gives you an opportunity then you better you know put up when you get there. You know that's the last thing that they want is open the door and then you don't do anything which I've also you know just really are. I've also done that for quite a few women where they you know complain about a problem or they're citing an issue and I go out of my way to make an introduction and give them an opportunity and then they dropped the ball and then I'm like they are you for real. That's right. You know so it goes both ways. Two of you know one thing you have to have to do the ask because you're never in life didn't get anything that you don't ask for.

[00:22:25] And then you go out or show up and do the work. So you're willing to do those two things like you know take this problem take this challenge that we have into your own hands and force your way into this space. Because I promise you from personal experience once you go through that process. The opportunities are endless and by that, you have earned such a heart. And I know it's kind of messed up to say this but you have earned such like are one level of respect from the people around you-you know like. And to this day have people come up to me and say wow you know like from 10 years ago like here actually really smart like I thought you were just like a day like I don't know what a backhanded comment or like what I do with that.

[00:23:13] You don't but I mean that goes to show that 10 years of like burning my way. You know that's just you know. So I still get a little bit of that and it doesn't make me upset and it doesn't make me angry but it does. Just like you just got to continue to push and push and push. But when you get to the other side I mean there's I've been booked for speaking engagements last week. Right. So then all of a sudden it's this windfall of our approach you know which I am very grateful for very grateful. And there are you know it's like the SES is.

[00:23:52] It has a diversity problem. But there are also some really amazing awesome people and I think we might share the same philosophy of knowing you. You pick your family and you choose who you are who you choose to allow into your life and the ones who are supportive. I mean like you've got some real like amazing rock stars like Conrad Saam of Mockingbird marketing and Aaron 3 of the lawyer and the attorney saying and leaders of the case management for writers know like Larry Ward and the time of rock matter and practice and there it's like these are like you know the leaders of these tech companies. Jack wouldn't you know it's the leaders of these soccer fans has been very welcoming very supportive and you would never hear anything like that out of their mouth.

[00:24:46] So it's kind of like surround yourself with the people who they don't walk through those glasses and that's you know another way that you can really give yourself a nice lake more you know wildling environment to do your work.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:03] I'm shifting gears of technology now. You work with saws and small law firms and helping them sort of manage the technology helping them choose the best solutions for them. You know what do you think holds back so many fans and lawyers from adopting technology are trying that.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:25:29] Change can suck. Really bad. It's a scary thing. And you know I always say solo and small firms. Two things. One software companies you know coming from working within it in one and being a marketer or a tech you know technology firms are. Just as much in competition with a solo or small firms open Amazon shopping cart as you are. You know other competitors are only 40 or so if I had to put a number on it.

[00:26:05] 40 percent of the overall market actually adopted some type of case management or software solution to this because it's easier to keep doing things the way that we are great. It's just that well you know my business didn't fall apart yesterday. So why should I invest in this today? And it's also you have to make a commitment and you have to be accountable because once you buy that solution and starts hitting your credit card every single month are you actually using it. And if you have a single aide or you have it in enough cases to use the payment processing tool or whatever it is you have to be accountable to yourself. So it's one you know acknowledging that you need to better your business and make a change. And like I personally you know just signed up for a very intense 90-day program for my own business. And then when I did it I was like oh look this is going to be one of the hardest 90 days.

[00:27:07] You know lay in it. But you really want the things that you say you want managed to do well that should be your motivator to make that change. What is that goal that is going to be you know we see all of these like marketing terms like it's going to make you more productive and it's going to make you more efficient? That's going to do. And yes that will do all of that stuff that absolutely. But what is it really good for you.

[00:27:32] Can I help you bring in an extra two or three you know ten thousand dollars or two cases a month so that you can take your family on vacation. You haven't done in five years. What is that? What is that all. And I think that that's what we need to tie you to technology to be not just necessarily like oh it's going to make you more productive and more efficient. What's the person driving motivating factor for making that investment and I feel like that's kind of like the missing puzzle piece when it comes to Barclay. The solution is you know it is a really getting home early and you know are you really going to do that or are you just going to fill your time with. So tying those two things together getting over the change and making that commitment which is one of the hardest things and this is 21 days 41 days to make a habit so we can get them through the first 21 days of usage. That that's always the hardest. And 90 days to really see true results and are alike.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:33] All right. You know if you notice suspension notices when I have like I stole some piece of technology that's supposed to do like whatever unless it's posted right. But like I can't seem to integrate it and actually make making a habit of using it because you can buy the best technology in the world. But if you don't integrate it into your daily life and actually use it it's actually not going to be really effective so no thoughts about selecting ones that are going to be easy to integrate into your backpack. And also just sort of making and part of your daily life.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:29:09] Yeah. And I can actually use an I can use a recent console that I did with a law firm. So the software that came through my Web site entered their contact info and said you know we're looking to choose between I think it was like Zola's sweet rocket batter and caused all that's really the case manager at the writer Sitka on the fall at the firm and they say. Okay, what. You know I'm like What are the most important things to you.

[00:29:36] They're like Okay we're really you know we want them all and want an accounting. We also want built-in. We also want slick ease of use because we're not tech savvy. The third one being the most important thing and we had a long talk. We narrowed it down to two and my homework for them as I want you to go and do these two actions. I want you to go and send your group e-mail inbox. And I want you to go and issue a bill and you know go through the process like building your time and showing the invoice they came back to me after they had demo both solutions and I said so which one feels like home. And it was a night and day difference between that two because you know and really like it wasn't even at that point like we went it has signed up as soon as we finished the job because they knew right away.

[00:30:30] And I feel like a train which is the reason why I wrote this buyer's guide. I feel like attorneys have been trained to shop based on a feature checklist, not SSN. I mean that is how tech-savvy at my water the things that are most important to me and my career. It's like they're going around with a with a clipboard. And I know because I work in a trade show who has to go through this is they come to you with like a clipboard with a feature checklist and they say okay well for 50 dollars per user per month. Do you have that? And they go through this whole thing. Right. And it shouldn't even matter. You know what the money that you're spending per month is I mean obviously like I understand that we need to be budgeting conscious but you don't lose it. It's not going to matter if you're saving 13 dollars a month or you're paying an extra 30 dollars.

[00:31:21] Why is that it should feel like home. And that's what you should. There should be usability there where you feel like people just jump in and move around and find things. And we're all different types of learners. You know there are visual learners there are auditory learners also barring technology and not making time training.

[00:31:40] So if you're going to go about it on your own do a needs assessment and then the second bit of advice that I would have is and I do this with my own business. I use consultants freelancers who know contractors that are specific in what they do to help me with this stuff because this is what happens here by piece of technology just like you said I needed to integrate with X Y Z and it becomes one of those things on your to do list where it's like I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it tomorrow and all the sudden it's next week and all of a sudden its next month and now you've been paying this thing for like a month or two months and you still haven't done anything with it. Just go ahead and spend the extra money like we're there a few hours of somebodies time which in some cases will be like ten dollars an hour. And just how to have them get you a jumpstart right. And then once you know you've got a little bit of information it could be as simple as like going there. And you know one of your kids come in on the weekend like set up my address is set up. You know this is that and the other thing I'm not like if they're like 5 or 6 or 8 but you know if you have a teenager or so they can help you.

[00:32:50] You know it's just taking that little bit of extra effort to have it ready for you. And all of these providers too. I mean I can honestly say that there is not a provider in this space right now that doesn't have a day isn't jumping over you know bending over backward to deliver exceptional training because space is that competitive where they have to.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:17] Think about lawyers. I actually found this to be nice for myself is that actually there's a lot of technology out there that is not here specifically towards the lawyers right. I mean things like Sword like just you know how each other and I don't know that it been so often mentioned like no I have to find which specific program.

[00:33:37] And I always found that to be really puzzling because it's like you know for example like CMOC just like there are so many better client management programs out there that are designed for nonlawyer it's just designed for like the average you know solo printer or whatever but like they want to like try to do the voice-specific program. So what are your thoughts on that? Is it really necessary for employers to have a more specific program specifically designed for employers and when it is an appropriate practice kind of looking at more programs that are designed for the general you know School of Business Owner?

Chelsey Lambert: [00:34:17] Yeah absolutely. So coming back to that needs assessment. Let's start with you know what type of law that you practice and that type of cases that you serve. So I've seen law firms where they. And there is there's also the front office and the back office. So if you're going to give you kind of two different scenarios if you are a business law attorney who is a very heavy marketer you know marketing to startups in your area sending newsletters you know using e-mail marketing automation tools and forms connected to your Web site.

[00:34:56] You very well might be investing in something like Inseam or hot spot to handle all of that. Like you said they see around the contacts is more relationship management system and marketing to try business into your firm and then in the back office, you would use tools for filing and form creation. You know make a legal link by Legal Aid. You're not going to be very hard for anybody in this space to find an all in one tool that is also legal specific. So it means that in a lot of situations I'll recommend that they run. And you'll see this when firms search grows to be midsize which is around like 30 employees. They'll start using nonlegal tools.

[00:35:52] You'll start seeing them use like a sales force or a marketing tool for the front office and then back office will be delivered through something like a Clio Or a or in other case management system also practice areas specifically that to me in the back office environment. That is where those practice areas specific tools down and make the biggest difference. Like Cate's here for a personal injury like you'd be hard-pressed to find you know a better case management system than one that is specifically built for practice area because that's all that it does.

[00:36:32] So finding a back office tool that can handle the case management that's the Civics’ your area of law that has document automation that has really complex billing tools is going to be a solution that makes the office function very well and run like a well-oiled machine and actually equate to a better quality of life for employees whereas those nonlegal specific tools for the front office tasks like client communication or marketing you know things like that might be better serves you know in the front of the House and really I mean if you're looking at the spacewalk Secede is born are the only solutions that bridge the gap between that initial leak capture wind generation taking care of. It's like a sales force and then moves it over into your practice management system like Puleo. So you're starting to see those two sides of the business be a little bit more divided as far as technology options are concerned.

[00:37:40] And the Chinese adopting things to serve the front end of marketing the generation the web them the advertising and then using the back office schools to actually manage the delivery. And that's really where I see the differences. And then also you know if you want to open it up to nonlegal tools I mean that could take years because there are so many thanks so much.

[00:38:05] News coming out of the startup community now that you can barely keep up with it. So just be mindful that if you're going to use something that's not legally specific your shopping list of potential options gets exponentially longer.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:25] Yeah. So when someone comes to you and says you know how when crafting timeline time entry. Now Clutterham might be like what design journey and most likely. Where does the inquiry begin? And how do you how the lawyers find the best solutions for them?

Chelsey Lambert: [00:38:49] So I go through the kind of a series of questions of how many people do you have in your office. You fill your time on a flat fee or an hourly basis. How often are you sending those out? Are you transactional or are you-you know continued the base? There's a lot of variables in there. What's the level of tech savvy you were on a Mac or a PC? Are you looking at new forms driven by document automation is something where there are only a few providers that actually have it built in and do it well. So there might be a little you know kind of like nugget of information like oh where we primarily use florals and that's like really where we spend a majority of our time and it's there.

[00:39:37] It's about understanding that workflow in the locker room and where a majority of time is spent because if you're spending your time tracking hours and belittles then we're going to go with lists of recommendations that are stronger in that time and billing category. Maybe they have tiered rates maybe they have like contingency fee tracker and projection tool. Just let to go to the bank and borrow money against the cases they have open that it's settled like there's a lot of nuances isn't there.

[00:40:11] Whereas if you were to have the need to do a lot of corms creation then I would and you were a Mac or a PC then it was like OK well then maybe we should focus on attacking our dimension. Built-in because you're going to be able to eliminate the work of you know two days’ worth of paralegal time per week just automating these forms and you will have any errors. So where is the bulk of the work in the firm and how you leverage technology to eliminate or is it up as much of that as possible and site that?

Jeena Cho: [00:40:52] Yeah I think that's an issue it's really kind of figuring out what it is that you do and finding solutions that are appropriate for what it is that you need rather than just being ikons hands and chai and then maybe just working with someone like you can really help to speed up that time not having to test 15 different products to make sure that to find the one that's actually going to market for you.

[00:41:16] So I highly recommend working with you know consultants. I mean I don't know and I also like it's so we think there is this mentality like that we should do it all and we should know at all and we're very like a dense. Oh, so I know the listeners out there like crazy to go out there and like you know to get help when you need it out there and like you know consultants and experts like you that 10 million make lives easier for employers.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:41:45] Yeah and it's really not as painful as it sounds. I mean most of the costs also that I do like this is the level of involvement I will submit as contact information for them through my website.

[00:41:56] We get on the phone for about a half hour to an hour and then I give you a list of solutions and potential consultants work with because some people are with certified. Some people work with tabs. Some people are implementing Cosmo flex so you know here's your list of solutions that I think would fit into what you might best be suited for. Now your homework is to go demo them so that you don't have to demo you know the 27 different case management systems that are out there or you know if you're looking for a virtual receptionist you know now we've got a whole handful of virtual receptionists services it used to just be Hruby now there is answer 1. Now there is at Live Now there are other occasions that say even that space is starting to expand.

[00:42:42] So you know and for some of those integrate you know it's like what's your end goal. OK. This is your potential stack. Like that's kind of what I like to call it it's like this is your software stack that you're going to run your business off of. And I recommend that you go talk to these people and here you know are your contacts that which like a lot of them on a first name basis with so I'm going to save you the trouble of having to go through the whole sales you know rigmarole go to these three companies come back to me if you have any questions and it's very rare that after that initial call someone backed me and says I need more help because in just that that talking out loud with someone who's seen a lot of these different tools we can arrive at a short list of options for you that make this selection process a lot easier.

[00:43:31] So it's not even like I'm in intensive. You don't get involved with the consultant. And then once you have made your decision then I 1000 percent recommend especially if you've got a migration that needs to happen or you've got like a lot of custom fields that you want to invest the money in a consultant someone like Adriana Lin or as for global macro I.T. or affinity consulting or Yon's square one or like one of the hundreds of Clio consultants that they have all over the country if you're going that route or complex like all of these people have solutions and that money will be some of the best money that you have ever spent.

[00:44:11] I'm a technology specialist and I pay for consultants to set my stuff up because I realize I'm like Okay we'll I can go in and I can fiddle with this for about 10 or 12 hours and it's still not going to be exactly the way that I want it where I can pay this person who does this all day for two hours of their time and it's going to be exactly how I want to know answers for me to find 10 or 12 hours over the course of you know it could take two months because you're always going to prioritize it. So finding 15-minute chunks is not an effective way to onboard into the software. Make that commitment. Spend the money to get a and then invest in using it to run your business.

Jeena Cho: [00:44:56] Advise Chelsea for the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about you and your services. What are some of the best places to do that job?

Chelsey Lambert: [00:45:04] Absolutely. Lax Tech Review is where you can find me. You can also find me on Twitter at Chelsea Lambert and at LAX Tech Review. There is a context for him as well as a link to my calendar. You're always more than welcome to enter your information or just go ahead. Schedule time for us chats. It's been a long 12 years in this space and any information that I can share that will help make someone else's life easier at the law firm or outside. Happy to do that.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:43] My final question to you is the name of this podcast is called the resilient voice. What does it mean to be a resilient boy to you?

Chelsey Lambert: [00:45:53] Oh wow. To be a resilient lawyer means to have the fortitude to continue into untap to serve the needs of your clients and to also recognize the opportunities for you to grow. Because it creates the growth creates additional resiliency in yourself and quality in the service that you provide to others.

Jeena Cho: [00:46:27] Chelsea thank you so much for spending all of our time with me. I so appreciate the work that you're doing in the world. And I just appreciate you know and just great determination and thank you.

Chelsey Lambert: [00:46:38] Oh thank you so much and thank you for everything that you do as well. It was an absolute pleasure to be able to include you in the book I recently published in hope that more and more juries download and learn about you as well.

Closing: [00:46:56] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Janine Sickmeyer on to talk about her journey in starting her legal tech business and the importance of mindfulness and wellness for her and her team.

Janine is the CEO and Founder of NextChapter, a web application for attorneys to prepare, manage and file their bankruptcy cases online. Janine is particularly fascinated in the intersection between law and technology, and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO, Janine is also a wife and mother to two, with twins on the way!

Topics Covered

• Both boundaries she sees for female business founders, and how she avoids burnout for herself and her employees in a legal tech startup.
• How mindfulness plays a role in developing relationships with employees and clients.
• The importance of philanthropy in your business, and how it aids in personal growth for herself and her employees.

Learn more about Janine at:
NextChapter
Twitter

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:00:01] When you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation and just being aware of what the actual problem is and how to resolve that. It's just you know it's going to help the employees and clients.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so happy to have Janine. She is the CEO and founder of Next Chapter a web application for attorneys to prepare manage and filed their bankruptcy cases online. She is particularly fascinated with the intersection between law and technology and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO she is also white a mother of two with twins on the way.

Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they don't have the time. I always tell the lawyers just that it was 6 minutes to a point one hour of all the hours he dedicate to your client work and others don't deserve to have a point one hour to yourself mindful pauses is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your wellbeing. Head on over to Jeena Cho. Com to learn more. Check it out and the show notes. And with that huge Janine Janine welcome to the show.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:08] Hi Jeena thanks so much for having me and thanks for all you do for legal professionals.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Thank you so much. So to get us started. Love to have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:22] Of course.

[00:02:23] So as you said I am CEO and founder of Next Chapter and next chapter is a web application for attorneys to prepare and manage their bankruptcy cases online. Prior to this I was a paralegal in the bankruptcy field. It was on the consumer side. I did that for several years and I just I saw a need in the market for something like Next job there a web based application. There are other applications that are a desktop in that space and I created next chapter just out of a need to fill the market. So I've been doing that for almost five years now and we launched about two years ago and it took about two and a half years to build but now that we are. You know kind of established Jeena out there we were just trying new things and to get new clients and adding new products. And it's been been a really fun venture.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:23] Yeah I peak you and I connect that because the listeners probably know my husband and I have a bankruptcy. So I think we may have met like net worth. Can get help.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:03:34] Actually yeah actually I remember this because I was in San Francisco for Dreamforce which is a sales force compromise. This was back in 2013. So this was right there as getting started and we met up at Peets Coffee. I sent you an email to see if you would talk with me just about you know. Being a bankruptcy attorney. And I knew that you and your husband were you know innovative and looking into I could just tell from your website. Frankly I believe at the time so when you love from Web sites or you know a little a little dated. And I was like well maybe I could meet up with her and see what she would think about this idea. So I remember meeting with you for coffee and sharing you just sketches and talking about it before it was even a product.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:28] So I learned Yeah yeah we remember that. Yeah. Sure. Thanks

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:07] Yeah it was it was funny because I met with a lot of investors on that trip and basically anyone that I could talk to. I was like I'm going to try to reach out to any bankruptcy attorneys any investors you know potential clients whoever I have. It was like researching kind of. Experience for me. So it was really it was really cool.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:24] So you know it's kind of rare being a female founder. I'm curious if you can just share a little bit about that journey of becoming an entrepreneur and starting a tech company.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:35] Yes it is. It is a little bit rare especially about five years ago. And in the legal market and even more narrow the bankruptcy market. So there. You know. I feel like it's starting to kind of come around. You know there's a lot more female founders that are starting tech companies but there's still not enough resources out there for them. And I'm actually. Playing with the idea of starting my own typecast and I don't know writing a book to help female founders. And I'm I'm working on that now. It's you know a little bit of a challenge to fit in with my current current position here and also with all the kids on the way.

[00:18:13] So it's it may take a little bit of time but I have some pretty good ideas of how you know what women are looking for when they're trying to start a tech company and how challenging it can be I guess to get out in front of investors especially when they're you know kind of wondering when the next step of your life is going to be. And it's you know I don't think that that's always.

[00:18:32] That's always important when it comes to business if you're you know looking to start a business.

[00:18:36] It's OK if you also want to start a family you know. Right.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:39] And of course men do it all the time. We're not the person responsible for raising the children. So yeah. So I know you have like lots of balls in the air that you are juggling you know how do you keep yourself from burning out. How do you go about nourishing yourself and maintaining your well-being.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:18:55] Well it's for me personally. I do a lot of a lot of the physical wellness where I'm going to bar classes.

[00:19:01] I do yoga. I'm doing spinning you know running a lot of that really helps me just kind of unwind and you know free balance after a long day either you know with kids or with the business with with work. We actually do a lot. And next chapter to kind of avoid that burnout and help kind of get everyone back together and you know just have a little more human interaction because we're all behind the screens all day long talking to our clients and trying to find new ways to find clients. And we actually we have a lot of remote employees too. So we think our team is 14 right now. And there are six of us in our headquarters so the rest of the team is anywhere from Serbia to New York to California. And we actually we do like annual retreats to bring everyone together to make sure that we're not just working in that set and you know day in and day out. So we do a lot of our annual retreats involve a lot of team building activities and bonding and personal development. And it's it's a lot of fun because it gets us together. And I think that's one of the you know one of the main things that we've been able to help with avoiding burnout for them I know especially our developers and you know the designers and those kind of more task oriented positions.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:19] And I know that you are a proponent and a practitioner of mindfulness. How did you end the practice saying that it should go about getting into mindfulness.

[00:20:29] Yes. So when I was first starting the next chapter it was very lonely. I feel like you know just building a company from scratch can can just be a difficult thing. And I was working in the coffee shops and you know late nights and I didn't have an office yet. You know and Next Chapter was just this idea that I was like I'm passionate about. But it felt you know very stressful too.

[00:20:53] And so as much as I loved it there was a lot of anxiety that came with that and I had a lot of loneliness just developing with a few you know a few people through the Internet. And that was it. So I started to take to mindfulness and work on myself when I you know I found that it was just getting very overwhelming to start a business by yourself. So I started meditating. I.

[00:21:16] It's not something that comes easy. That was that was something that I had to practice every day. And you know it's weird at first you're like What am I supposed to be doing or thinking about. Am I doing this right. Well yeah but I feel like after I started to develop this habit it was actually very very enlightening and helped me bring back you know all of that stress and kind of let that go and just spring back you know what my actual goals were and think more clearly about how to resolve issues. I actually do a lot of that now with my children too with Elouise about my daughter. She's two and a half and before bed time she's you know a little wild up or kind of a grumpy mood or something. I will you know I'll say let's sit down together and practice our breathing and just you know dim the lights and all kind of have this exercise together. And we've been doing that since she was you know six seven months old and I was like why don't start now. And then she gets it. You know she's like you know when my son's a little wound up he's only one and a half surely he needs to take three deep breaths relax. Guess cute things you know kind of involve that men and some of their favorite little shows. They also talk about it. You know Daniel Tiger is like OK when you're upset count for you know and so she she can relate to that too.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:30] And how have you found your mindfulness practice helping you in terms of how you relate to your employees and your clients.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:22:38] Oh yeah I think I think that's when you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation.

[00:22:45] And a lot of times just being aware of of what the actual problem is and how to resolve it. It's just going in you know it's going to help the employees and and clients feel like you know you're actually encouraging them connecting with them better. It's I mean with my employees now I can you know we have a lot of customer support that we deal with with an application like Next Chapter. And so there's a lot of attorneys that are using our product that you know may have run into a snag or a bog or something like that and it can just be very stressful for everyone in the office because we're in a very tight space. So there's like six of us in a very small room so we kind of feed off of each other. You know if there's a difficult client. All of us are kind of in it. And so I'm like you know we we need to find a way to not let these things bother us and just take a break like Get out go on a walk. Just go to yoga. I mean all like basically everybody goes to work out through the middle of the day must be a great way to come back and feel energized and relaxed and really you know once you come back to that to the desk you're like oh that wasn't actually a big deal.

[00:23:52] I just needed to get away for a minute and think about what you know the actual problem is so. And then you know it we like to do a lot of our activities together through the day. I think that it will be things like cooking classes or you know we do a lot of volunteer work together. And I think all of that also helps. The company and ultimately helps our clients just feel like we're connected and better mindset about about the business.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:17] What are some of the things that you do in your business that makes your business stand out that makes it unique and makes it different from other perhaps other tech companies.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:24:26] So from the very beginning of the business giving back was something that I really wanted to involve in our company and it was it was something that we were all of us were passionate about who kind of started next chapter. And I wanted to find a way to be able to help debtors you know file these bankruptcies but we didn't want to be a consumer facing product at the time. So we kind of found a way to do that through this this one on one model which is is actually inspired by sales force. They they give back the same way. And it's like an integrated philanthropy. We're able to give 1 percent of our equity 1 percent of our time and 1 percent of our product to those and underserved markets. So for us the way we do that is by allowing the attorneys to use the product for free for any pro bono cases. So it's it's been really nice to be able to include that. And you know I know that it's not easy for every company to be able to get back in the same way I think for technology though you can do that with you know students or you know with us we also allow law school students to use next chapter for free. Sometimes professors ask us for their bankruptcy classes if they can use it to you know have their clients or have their students practice. And I think that's you know I think that's really cool.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:43] Now I really loved Tad. Thank you so much for your time and for joining me today. Before I let you go the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be The Resilient Lawyer to you.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:25:54] Well I think striving in life after all of the struggles and challenges that it takes to build a company.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:01] W. Onderful Janene for the listeners that are out there that want to learn more about you and your company what's the best place for them to go and do that.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:08] So you can find next chapter online next chapterB.K. dot com or find us on Twitter. Next chapterB.K.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:14] Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:16] Oh sure. Thanks so much for having me.

Closing: [00:26:17] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Jane Springer on to talk about physical and mental health for the modern woman lawyer.

Jane is a Certified Life, Wellness and Style Coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage the stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so that they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane also serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee.

Topics Covered

• The main stressors for a woman lawyer, the coping mechanisms they use to deal with them (like stress eating), and what the results are.
• How she helps her clients address the underlying feeling that can trigger their coping mechanisms, and how they can change the way they think and feel so that they get different results.
• What kind of fuel they need to be feeding their bodies so they get the maximum body and brainpower to handle the stressors.
• She also talks on which kind of movement will serve them best with a busy law practice.

Learn more about Jane at:
JaneSpringer.com
E-mail - jane@janespringer.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Jane Springer: [00:00:00] All the actions that you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you might go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back to the original thought that you had.

Intro: [00:00:26] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:48] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I am really happy to have Jane Springer. She is a certified life wellness and style coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage their stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee.

[00:01:15] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes.

[00:01:58] And with that, here's Jane. Jane, welcome to the show.

Jane Springer: [00:02:01] Thank you Jeena, it's a pleasure to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:03] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Jane Springer: [00:02:09] Well my name is Jane Springer, and I am a certified life and wellness coach. I also do style coaching for busy professionals like lawyers, who want to feel put together and confident. So I sort of roll it all into one. My husband is an attorney, so this area of helping women lawyers was really a topic that is of personal interest to me. I have three nieces who are lawyers, so de-stressing and helping women lawyers lose weight is really a sweet spot for me.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] Great. So when we talk about wellness, what does wellness mean to you? I think so often we think about it in terms of exercise, but to me it means so much more than that. So I'm curious how you would think about wellness, and what that means.

Jane Springer : [00:03:03] To me, wellness is an overall, overarching, broad feeling that you are handling your life well, that you're eating well, that you have energy, you have enthusiasm for what you're doing, you're taking care of your body, mind, and spirit. It's a large, overarching viewpoint.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:34] And in your work with women lawyers, what are the main stressors that you see them struggling with? And how do they typically deal with it?

Jane Springer: [00:03:46] Well I've interviewed many women lawyers (in addition to my own family members), and what I have found is that their main stressors are worrying about deadlines; there's a brief due, there's an order due, there's research due. So deadlines, demanding clients, and demanding partners. And now that you're available 24/7 it's even more so, because they can reach you at any time. Work and family life balance, trying to leave work in time to pick up your children, trying to have time to spend with your spouse, that's another stressor. And then money. If you are an associate, you may not be making the kind of money that you would really like to make, so you may be worrying about money and your family. But also if you're a solo or duo practitioner, you're concerned about the money coming in and the money going out, and how to pay all the bills and pay your employees. There's a lot of stressors going on.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:56] And what are the default tools that lawyers use, or what are some of the coping mechanisms that they use to deal with all the stressors?

Jane Springer: [00:05:07] What I have found is: stress eating. In the demanding world that they are in, they may reach for something to eat, something sugary, or a carb or processed food that's fast so they can get back to work. So something to give them a little boost of energy. Stress drinking; that when they get home all they want to do is sit down and have their wine, and they may not eat the way they should. They may have very little time for exercise, or make no time for exercise because there's so much going on. And there's anxiety, depression, you may have weight gain because of all that you're doing and trying to cope with. And it may end up in burn out, or even leaving the profession because of all the stresses involved.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:07] So these are self-soothing behaviors that they're engaging in that are not helpful, and that are probably actually exacerbating the situation?

Jane Springer: [00:06:19] Yes.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:19] So when you start to work with a client, what are some of the first steps that you have them take? How can they change the way they think and feel, so that they stop doing the behaviors that they know are not working for them?

Jane Springer: [00:06:36] Back to your point that you just made, what they're getting from those ways of coping (like in the eating and the drinking) is a dopamine hit. And yeah, that will give you energy and lift you up for a little while, and then you crash after that. So it is a habit that you develop. So what I like to do when I work with my clients first is have them explain to me what their main issue is; do they want to lose weight, do they want to de-stress? I find out what their needs are.

[00:07:14] I also almost right away will teach them a tool that they can use in looking and examining (because lawyers can be very analytical and critical thinkers, so I like to give them something that they can work with right away) that all the actions you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back up to the original thought that you have. So I like to teach them that first, so that they understand the consequences and the results that they get from the thoughts and the feelings that they have. That's the first thing I do.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:10] Okay, so if we can actually drill down a little bit and use a specific example. Let's say it's Friday at 4 pm, I'm getting ready to run out the door and I have weekend plans, and the partner comes up to my desk and says, "Hey, I actually need you to work on this motion to dismiss this weekend." What would be an example of a thought that would trigger this cycle?

Jane Springer: [00:08:35] I'll never finish that by 5 pm, or by 6 pm that I have to pick up my child by.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:42] Right, and now my weekend is ruined; I'm not going to be able to go away with my girlfriends, or whatever it is that I had planned for the weekend. And then what is the behavior that follows that thought?

Jane Springer: [00:08:54] Well the first thing that happens after the thought is a feeling that you get inside. So the feeling would be either anxiety, because you've got this work assignment that you weren't planning on having. But whatever the feeling is, disappointment that you can't do what you were going to do with your family or your girlfriends, but you identify the feeling..

Jeena Cho: [00:09:16] So anger, frustration, outrage.

Jane Springer: [00:09:22] Exactly, all those things. And from there, what is the action that you take? You realize you've got to do this work, so you undertake doing the work; you either stay late, or you're tied up over the weekend. But when you're doing it, you are feeling very resentful and under more pressure because your family or friends are disappointed as well, it's affected your whole weekend. So your feeling at that point is resentment, maybe still anger, it could be anything. And then your action is you're doing the work that needs to be done, but you may not do it to the best of your ability or focus, because of the feelings that you have involved. And the result is, you may have a work product that's not your best work; there may be errors in it, and it may not be your best product.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:28] And the action could also be, you know what I just don't have the capacity to deal with this right now. I'm going to go home, open up a bottle of wine, and I'm going to treat myself for a few glasses, and then we'll see how I feel in the morning about this whole work situation.

Jane Springer: [00:10:44] Exactly, that's exactly what can happen as well. And then the result is your resolve to eat healthy for dinner may go out the window, your interaction with your family may be affected because you're still angry and frustrated. So the results are less than ideal, for sure.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:15] So when you're working with your client.. I mean, I understand that obviously going home and drinking to excess, or sitting down with a bag of potato chips or a pint of ice cream or whatever may not be the best way to soothe those feelings. Then I also get that you're then saying try eating some pistachios or cashews, instead of eating that gallon of ice cream. But how do you help the clients actually address that underlying feeling?

Jane Springer: [00:11:47] The first thing I do is help them identify the process that they just went through, by using the tool. What I tell them is, let's be curious about this; not with a spirit of condemnation, but with curiosity about how this process happens. And also, be compassionate. Because it always is better for yourself when you're being compassionate than when you're in a negative state of mind about yourself. First of all, we're curious about what drove this action and all that, but then I help them to turn it around. And then we use that tool again, but in a way that has a more positive action end result.

[00:12:44] So let's say this happened, your partner came to the door and said I need you to have this done by 8 am on Monday. Instead of immediately reacting, I recommend that they stop; take a pause, as you were talking about you're Mindful Pause, stop and take five deep breaths. Take an inhale, hold it for a little bit, and just let it out so that you can decompress that moment right when that happens. Then think about what drove the thought, but then we're going to think about what might be a better action? And you can attack it from the result-action feeling or thought. Or you can attack at the other direction, what thought would you need to come up with that would be better? Because what you're doing is creating new neuropathways; you're going to really develop and use your brain.

[00:13:59] And lawyers are smart, so they're going to be able to identify with this. But you want to develop new neuropathways, and then the more you repeat that thought, that action, that feeling, the old thought is going to recede. So instead of reacting like, he's so he's so thoughtless to do this at the last minute to me, your new thought might be, "Okay I can handle this. I've done it before, I can do it again. Perhaps I can work out a way to finish this and still have some family time." But come up with a thought that turns around your brain, so that you can handle it better.

And then from that thought, I can figure this out (that's a good one, I use that one a lot) and maybe still have some time with my family or my friends. And then the feeling from that is definitely calmer, you're not going to have that frustration to that level. And then the action you take is, okay well I'm going to work on this from this to this time, and then from this to this time, I'm the set aside for my friends or my family. And the result is, you get the paper done, but you also got at least some time with your family. So I'm helping them work a model that turns around the negative.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:29] Does that also involve sometimes helping the clients to set boundaries? Because I think so often that happens with women lawyers, they let everyone pile work on them, without any consideration as to how much work they can realistically do, and do well.

Jane Springer: [00:15:48] Yeah, I totally agree with that. One option, and I know that it's intimidating if you're an associate and it's the partner that comes to your door. But you can say I'm sorry, I need to do this right now, or I have plans for the weekend but I will come in early on Monday morning and do whatever it is that they assigned you to do. So yes, I definitely agree on setting reasonable boundaries for sure. Otherwise, they'll just keep dumping that stuff on you.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:21] Right. So let's shift gears a little bit, and talk about actually feeling the body. What are some of the suggestions that you have for feeding the body, so that lawyers can get the maximum body and brain power to handle all of these different stressors?

Jane Springer: [00:16:40] Well it probably won't be a popular way of looking at it, but I would say limit your sugar and your flour, your processed foods. And the reason for that is, I mean everybody says you should quit sugar, but your body really does not need them. It wasn't made for them, and it actually drains your natural energy. It's going to give you a boost right away, but then it's going to come right back down. What happens when you raise your blood sugar with sugar or flour products, it raises your blood sugar, but it also raises your insulin level.

And insulin is a fat-storing hormone, so you don't want to eat those types of food because the result will be you'll have more fat storing, especially around your middle and liver. So avoiding sugar and flour products, and eating whole foods; having a healthy fat, a protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, that will give you your maximum energy. And then my recommendation is to limit your alcohol, but that's always up to the individual. It does take you out of a fat burning state into another state that is not as good for your body, and it also changes your resolve. You're having empty calories; it may relax you, but it's also going to relax you making good choices, in terms of diet and exercise. So yeah, healthy fat, protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, and limit your blood sugar, insulin, and alcohol.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:32] When you say limit alcohol, now the lawyer in me is like well how much is too much, and what do you mean when you say limit? So if you had to offer some general guideline, in terms of let's say daily consumption, how many servings are we talking about?

Jane Springer: [00:18:47] I hate to even say that, because I don't really know. I am not an alcohol drinker myself, so I can't really address that. All I know is that the clients that I work with, they have a very tough time losing weight when they're still consuming two or more glasses of a wine a day.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:13] Yeah, you know the food rule that I really like, that I think really kind of keep things simple is.. are you familiar with Michael Pollan?

Jane Springer: [00:19:20] Yes.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:21] He says, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. And I think that's such a great rule to live by, eat real food. And he also suggests shopping in the outside of the grocery store, not in the middle where all the boxed and canned and frozen stuff lives, and sticking to the outside of the grocery store where all the produce is. So I think having these simple rules, because I feel like we are so bombarded with all these different things that we're trying to keep in our heads, and I think having too many food restrictions is very taxing. At least I find it to be very taxing, to try to remember what it is a grain that I'm supposed to eat and I'm not supposed to eat? And I think obviously finding something that works for you is super important too.

Jane Springer: [00:20:17] Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's pretty much what I do as well. Anything you're going to find in the middle of the aisles is going to be processed food for the most part. Anytime you've crushed and condensed any kind of flour down, down, down, and then made it into some concoction with chemicals and stuff to hold it together so it can stay on the shelf longer, it's going to drive your insulin up. So I totally agree with you. Now I will say that frozen vegetables can be a real handy thing for busy lawyers, because when they freeze those vegetables they do it right away. Sometimes those vegetables are more fresh (as long as you don't cook them to death) than the ones you'll find that have been sitting around out in the outer.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] Let's talk briefly about movement, and I also notice that you use that word movement and not exercise. I tend to be somewhat allergic to that word exercise because that makes it sound like something that I have to do. Whereas movement is just something that I naturally do. So what kind of movements do you recommend for busy lawyers?

Jane Springer: [00:21:38] First of all, I recommend that if you can do it early in the day, before work or on your lunch hour, you're much more likely to continue to do it, because that's when you have the energy. You're going to be less likely to do it in the evenings, put it that way. So the time of day is important. And I recommend walking; even if you're at your desk, you've got an assignment due or a brief to finish or whatever. Getting up and walking around, or getting up and walking the stairs if you're in a building that has stairs, just take a break.

Walking, at a minimum. And you should do a form of movement that you'll continue to do, and it's something that interests you or is fun. So if going to the gym is fun for you and you'll stick with it, do that. if you liked to bicycle as a kid, try cycling. If you like to swim, do that. Run, if that makes you feel good. Walking, yoga, any kind of slow movement like that will help your anxiety levels. I think you should go with what interests you, and what you're most likely to stick with.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:59] Yeah, I think that's such great advice. Also, I noticed throughout my life, I at different times I’ve felt more pulled to different types of movements than others. Like when I was younger I used to do a lot of rock climbing, and then once I got older I was like, you know it's not really my thing anymore. So now I do more yoga and walking and hiking; I love going on long hikes, where I can free-up the brain. I find it to be very therapeutic, that physical activity and movement, that consistent movement. And seeing the beauty and being able to breathe in the fresh air and all that stuff. So I think that's also important, to try to find something that works for you in that moment. Obviously, you know, if you're pregnant you're going to do something different than when you're not, and all the different.. If you have little kids, you might also have to adjust what you do for movement.

Jane Springer: [00:23:54] And I totally agree with you about the hiking in nature, if it's at all possible. I know for my husband, when he's de-stressing from what he's been working on, if we go on a hike on Saturday it totally changes his mood, and mine too. Because I love being out in nature and spending time together, but it does have a way of freeing up your brain, with the beauty and just getting away and being in nature.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:28] Yeah, yeah. And also, it's a great time to chat with your spouse while you're going on one. I find that when I'm able to have a little more spaciousness and talk to my husband, I tend to be more relaxed about it and I feel like the conversations go better. As opposed to if we're sitting over dinner and we're completely stressed out, and it's like alright we have to figure this thing out. And then I get more snappy and more agitated.

Jane Springer: [00:24:52] Yes, we do the same thing. It may be 9:00 by the time he de-stresses and comes down enough to.. and then we don't really feel like having a deep, meaningful conversation at that time. So we definitely have more meaningful conversations when we're walking outside, for sure.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:13] Great. So one final question for you before I let you go. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Jane Springer: [00:25:25] To me, it's a lawyer, a person who is able to bounce back from a disappointment. And they keep on going, but with a healthy attitude. There's no self-imposed pressure or condemnation that they might have lost a case. And then one who's a resilient lawyer is someone who knows how to take care of themselves, so that they can bounce back and have the maximum energy and their maximum brainpower. And also to tag onto that, the resilient lawyer is one who bounces back with compassion and kindness for themselves, because I think that's super important.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:10] Great response. Jane, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your wisdom.

Jane Springer: [00:26:15] You're very welcome, it was a pleasure being here.

Closing: [00:26:20] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Matthew Foli and Elissa Meyer on to talk about their experience as lawyers pioneering the yoga and wellness environment in Minneapolis.

Elissa Meyer is a Program Attorney at Minnesota Continuing Legal Education in the Twin Cities, and a yoga teacher at a small community studio in Northeast Minneapolis called YOGA Garden. She loves the idea that both law and yoga are “practices,” with endless opportunities for learning and growing.

Matthew Foli is a real estate attorney / yoga teacher in Minneapolis. He regularly sends out emails about yoga, meditation, and mindfulness, geared towards attorneys and beneficial for everyone.

Topics Covered

• Matthew & Elissa talk on their past that led them to where they are now. Elissa talks on being a lawyer, her upbringing in yoga, and how everything came together for her to become a teacher of yoga and wellness. Matt touches on how his view of yoga as a practice has shifted from his initial misguided outlook of “practicing to perfection”, as opposed to practicing for self-betterment.
• Their efforts on bringing yoga and wellness to the local legal community and how it has/is being received. They also reflect on how humbling the experience of starting up a practice and teaching yoga can be.
• We discuss and dispel the myths of practicing yoga, as well as all of our different definitions for yoga and how it benefits us. Matthew goes into detail on how just meditation as a practice can create a pivotal change in how we approach the day-to-day.
  
  
  For more information on Matthew or Elissa, find them at the following sites:
  
  Matthew: matthewfoli.com.

Elissa: www.yogagardenmpls.com

Sources mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/user/yogawithadriene

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Transcript

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Matthew Foli and Elissa Meyer on to talk about their experience as lawyers pioneering the yoga and wellness environment in Minneapolis.

Elissa Meyer is a Program Attorney at Minnesota Continuing Legal Education in the Twin Cities, and a yoga teacher at a small community studio in Northeast Minneapolis called YOGA Garden. She loves the idea that both law and yoga are "practices," with endless opportunities for learning and growing.

Matthew Foli is a real estate attorney/yoga teacher in Minneapolis. He regularly sends out emails about yoga, meditation, and mindfulness, geared towards attorneys and beneficial for everyone.

Topics Covered

• Matthew & Elissa speak on their pasts that led them to where they are now. Elissa talks about being a lawyer, her upbringing in yoga, and how everything came together for her to become a teacher of yoga and wellness. Matt touches on how his view of yoga as a practice has shifted from his initial misguided outlook of "practicing to perfection", as opposed to practicing for self-betterment.
• Their efforts on bringing yoga and wellness to the local legal community and how it has/is being received. They also reflect on how humbling the experience of starting up a practice and teaching yoga can be.
• We discuss and dispel the myths of practicing yoga, as well as all of our different definitions for yoga and how it benefits us. Matthew goes into detail on how just meditation as a practice can create a pivotal change in how we approach the day-to-day.

  For more information on Matthew or Elissa, find them at the following sites:

  Matthew: www.matthewfoli.com

        Elissa: www.yogagardenmpls.com

Sources mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/user/yogawithadriene

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Matthew Foli: [00:00:07] If you say you aren't flexible enough for yoga, that's like saying you're too dirty to take a bath.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today and joining us for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am so delighted to have some Elissa Meyer who is a program attorney at the Minnesota Continuing Legal Education in Twin Cities and also a yoga teacher at a small community studio in NE Minneapolis called The Joyful Garden. And we also have Matthew Foli, who is a real estate attorney and also a yoga teacher in Minneapolis. He regularly sends out e-mails about yoga, meditation, and mindfulness.

[00:01:50] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. It was a few episodes ago, I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice, to help you let go of stress and anxiety. And it's particularly great for this time of year because I know for me it's always a stressful time. And so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should meditate and practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell them you know what, just start with six minutes. Start with just .1 hour. All the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have just one .1 hour for yourself? And so I created a program, it's called Mindful Pause and it's designed for lawyers like you so that you can fit it into your very hectic schedule. So head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com. Or you could also look at the show notes.  Alyssa and Matthew welcome to you both.

Matthew Foli: [00:02:56] Thank you.

Elissa Meyer: [00:02:56] Thank you. Hi Gina.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:59] Yes and they said. I'm assuming we can start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and why you know.

Elissa Meyer: [00:03:08] So as you mentioned in the intro. I am a program Attorney at Minnesota continuing legal education. So in that role, I think of it sort of as producing continuing education seminars for lawyers and that starts often with a planning process. Working with practicing attorneys to help design programs that are really timely and relevant and then following it all the way through. So designing a brochure and developing a marketing plan and working with the volunteer speakers collecting materials all the way to the date of the program where it's sort of a hosting and just making sure everything runs as close to as we intended it as we can. It's really a fun job and I'm grateful to have it so. And then I also on the side have this little gig as a yoga teacher and all the time I'm thinking about and learning ways to try to combine those things which are really fun. Thanks for having me.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:08] Oh wonderful I can't wait to hear more about how you're combining this studio and what you have in the 30-second introduction. So

Matthew Foli: [00:04:19] I'm a title examiner at a commercial real estate title insurance company. I've just started that job a month ago. Jeena, you'll love this. I lasted two days at the new job before I broke out in hives and I had come from a government position as in Minnesota we have a Torrens land system and it was a title examiner there for 13 years decided to make a switch for a career and it's interesting what I've been preaching before to attorneys about taking time for themselves. And now I'm ready to change that message because I notice that I'm busy now or a busier than I was before.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:00] Yeah and I think that's a really interesting point maybe we can work into here because I often find that whatever. Is the reason for you leaving your job often that issue will all be to you? So it's almost like leaving one bad relationship for another. So yeah Elissa just learn more about what you've learned from this experience of teaching jobs.

Matthew Foli: [00:05:27] And you know I think I just really think like transition it's interesting what Elyssa said about how like she has this little part this little thing of yoga on the side. But you know they're both they're both slash careers for us. Yes, and I are friends we're actually right here together doing the podcast in the same room. We are both motivated to change the profession in a good way here in the Twin Cities. Yeah, and the yoga part in the wellness part fills us up as much as the day job does.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:02] And I love that and love having it some other outside and that you al-Sadr works and that actually helps you better your job and also helps you to be better at all areas of life because that's how you find balance work.

Elissa Meyer: [00:06:21] Yeah I think the thing about finding ways to combine them you know where they intersect. To me, that's made my work at Minnesota CLB like so much better and so much more valuable and fulfilling. You know I came to Minnesota CLB after work you know practicing for almost eight years in a small firm and in-house and I had to make that transition because I was just sort of miserable and at the end of my ability to sustain myself where I was and I found that when I finally made the switch that felt more aligned for me professionally. I was I was able to focus on sort of these personal things that were meaningful to me like yoga and then I was able to figure out how to put them together and have it just be this more integrated thing. And Matthew pointed out that I said yoga was just a little thing a side gig. But I guess that's just sort of a historical like you minimize the thing on the side but it really is like that. It's really a critically important part of my life. So I appreciate Matthew kind of calling it because it is so. It's a big thing. It is a big thing for me.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:30] You know I'm always like how do you go from this thing a lot to deciding oh I'm going to start acting seeing that much. You know I can see it happening. But then it kind of turned me into that really big leap to say I'm going to jump in and go through training. I teach at what was the abolition of I guess.

Elissa Meyer: [00:07:51] I've had sort of an awareness of yoga even from the time I was a small child. My mom practiced yoga and I had this little book when I was little and I would you know the sort of make the shapes of the poses a lot of the poses have names that translate to like animal names and so this book was this really cool like a visual book with kids in the yoga poses. But the animals are the tree or whatever were superimposed over them and so it's just a really fun book. And then that continued in high school I was a dancer and so I use yoga as part of that training and then in college and by the time I got to law school I'd sort of fallen away from any kind of regular practice like really at the time when I could have used it the most probably. But and then that sort of continued as I started to practice you know so I have in fits and starts I would kind of come back to yoga and I knew it helped me but I just felt you know like sort of so stressed out that trying to do it sometimes just created more stress. So in 20, I think 20 14 when I kind of realized that I had to make this job transition like for my own mental health and wellbeing.

[00:09:08] I after I sort of did some work some self-study to figure out what kind of job I wanted and I was really fortunate that things just sort of fell into place. And once I started that new job I. This opportunity came up to do a yoga teacher training program and I really hadn't had a regular practice and I was just like oh this thing is right here right in front of me. I'm going to do it. And so I didn't take the yoga teacher training program really with the intention to teach. I took it with the intention to refocus on my own practice. But once I completed it I the idea of teaching became more of like a dare to myself because I was so I was so terrified of teaching that I was like you know this is important to me I feel like I want to share it. And I was lucky to find a little studio where I could. The stakes were pretty low. Like I could do it in my own time. It didn't really matter if anyone showed up to my classes or not.

[00:10:10] And for a few months, there were definitely days where no one came. But it was sort of just like this thing I wanted to do. So I was going to you know I was in this big transition I was feeling I don't know maybe sort of emboldened and I just decided I was going to do it and try to figure it out and not worry about the outcome just engage with it and just kind of been a continuation from there. You know its like exploded into all of these other great things and opportunities. And so getting to where we are today.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:44] Yeah and I just really good not just that you know I mean there's definitely some amount of courage that you to say yes something that you know that you just like you did a 200-hour training.

Elissa Meyer: [00:10:58] Yes. Yeah, I did. And actually, since then, I've done another one so I've done like two hundred hour training which they were you know they were different. So that's been interesting but yeah I just I sort of jumped right into this 200-hour training you know with teachers I didn't really know and I was like well I don't know what I was really doing but yeah just sort of made a quick decision and it was a good decision.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:26] I love that. Well you know I feel like that's so like the opposite of how we're supposed to do things as lawyers were very I don't want to go and watch from every single angle and you didn't spend six months sort of weighing the pros and cons differently.

Elissa Meyer: [00:11:43] You know and after the fact you know it's like if you really wanted to weigh the pros and cons like there are so many articles about like how to pick the right teacher training program and what are you looking for and I'm just like man I didn't do I didn't do any of that work. But you know which is not. It's not meant to be critical it's just sort of a funny observation and I think it's really just a reflection of where I was at that time in my life like I was just needed to sort of bust out of this place that where I'd been and that was that was sort of how I decided to do it yeah.

[00:12:17] Right you know it's really funny because as I'm listening to your story I was like visiting my parents in New York and I saw an e-mail coming from Spirit Rock which is I've done a lot of my meditation training and they announced that they're doing a 200 hour teacher a yoga teacher training program starting in January and this was back in might. And something you like out next year which felt like far away but they only I think there were only opening it to like 20 people and I know that most events asparagus sells out. Like almost immediately I was like you know what I'm just going to do it. And so I signed that and it sounded like such a great idea. Back in June and now I'm looking at my calendar for next year and I have this like 200-hour law which ends up being like several. You know like Monday through Friday works workshops and now sort of going back as I ate.

Elissa Meyer: [00:13:17] That's exciting though right. Like this. That sounds really great.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:22] Yeah it's definitely really excited us a little bit scared because I think also at the same place that you're in where it's like I have no regulating yogi and quite some time that I like to fall in and out of practice and same think me I was like I don't only have a desire to teach but I felt like if I went and did the teacher training program that may be forcing me to get into that. It's safe.

Elissa Meyer: [00:13:49] In a way there's something kind of nice about that too because it's like you're maybe a little more open like you're not putting so much pressure on yourself or like if you haven't had a practice like it's fun you know it's more like I'm just going in to see what's going to happen. And yeah you know maybe I can't do all these poses but like I'm just going to I'm going to sort of be curious and check this out and in some ways, that's kind of nice so yeah.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:17] Matthew how about you. How did you end up doing and getting into yoga and doing the training?

Matthew Foli: [00:14:26] So my last job with Hennepin County that's where Minneapolis is the county seat. One of my co-workers probably likes in 2006 or 2007 something like that she was going to a noon yoga class in the building. And like she looked at me and said Why don't you come with me like she was challenging me. Let's go right ahead. Didn't they have the clothes? I don't think I'd ever been to a class before. Went there went the next week. Went to next week kind of thing. And it's funny because this teacher Nita I don't remember this but she's told some other people that I asked her at the beginning what was the point of Chavira and at the end of class why don't you just end class five minutes early and let us.

[00:15:14] So that was my mindset at the beginning and I continue to do that. And then I think like 2009 we became members of Lifetime Fitness here in town. And I think I don't know. From 2009 to 2014 that five years stretch at work I was not very happy and I was looking for the next opportunity which was a retirement. By the by the supervisor and I was absolutely attached to getting that position. And that came around in 2014 and I did not get that position. And so that was like the life changer kind of thing for me. And I was doing yoga before that but I was doing more group fitness and my wife was doing a Sunday morning yoga class and I wasn't coming with her. But then I started to go to her class reluctantly and started to go back to that class more and it was so funny because like at the beginning like I'd go up to the teacher and I'd be like after class and I would whisper to her am I getting better.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:19] You know you watch me in class you know and I think you are a lawyer right.

Matthew Foli: [00:16:27] You know like I do I do a lot better that type of thing. You don't you have you noticed any progress in all of that is so misguided. Because like it doesn't matter right it doesn't matter what you look like it's like what you take away. I've got one teacher right now who like she just breaks it down to say that the whole point of a yoga class is for you to walk out afterward feeling better than when you walked in. That's it. So whatever the class is whatever they end up doing that's all that's he’s the only goal so I think I was finally at the right place at the right time.

[00:16:58] I actually started to listen to those crazy messages that the teachers gave us in class and it was starting to. I started to take them with me outside of the yoga studio. There was one where one of the studios had glass mirrors on the front and some others that I go to do not because you know the point isn't really to stare at yourself or to see what your neighbor is doing. But then the teacher like halfway to class she just said you know try not to compare yourself to others by looking in the mirror. And then she kind of like just as a throwaway says and when you leave the studio try not to compare yourself to others. And you know I had figured out this was probably like 2000 15 or so I'd figured out at that point that I had spent the first 20 years of my luck. We're comparing me to others within the profession starting with law school certainly with other students and you know who was getting the on-campus interviews and who wasn't and who was getting the summer jobs and who wasn't. And then afterward you know just going on and on and on and always comparing yourself where you are on the short end of the stick.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:09] You don't have that comparing mind is very strong and for us in all of us particularly in.

Matthew Foli: [00:18:18] So at the end of 2014 I told one of these teachers that did the Sunday morning classes Drew and I had this big blow out birthday party because it was such a crappy year and she came and I just told her all of the benefits that I had received from her yoga classes. And actually then that fall I had also had pneumonia. And so the only thing I could do was yoga and not group fitness so I took like 17 classes one month and he was like you know like you start here you know you have to be at the right place at the right time. It has to be correct for you I've got one friend of mine who after I had become this yoga convert I said Just come with me we'll go to your office and we'll meditate for five minutes and then she was like I don't even have five. She's an attorney. She's like I don't even have five minutes to minute and then like a year later she would start to come to my classes and then she would say I feel like I've got three times as much time during the day than I did before I started doing yoga.

[00:19:11] So you know you have to be at the right place at the right time. But so I told this friend drew about the benefits that I had had. And then she tells this story the next day Sunday morning she goes to her own class that she's teaching and she relays the story about how well there's this other person who usually had class and he told me yesterday that these are the benefits he gets from yoga. And then after class, she says well these people came up to her and they said they really liked her story and I'm like well I can cut her out of the middle. I mean I can just tell these stories myself.

[00:19:38] So I really think that and also for the yoga teaching you do not need to do all the poses to be a good teacher and the person that I've used as a great example of that is this gentleman that's in town here Matthew Sanford and he's in a wheelchair and he's a great yoga teacher. So you know if he can do it then any of us can cue the polls too and then I listen I really find beneficial for especially for my target audience which is attorneys.

[00:20:10] I think it's beneficial to have an attorney teaching the yoga class because we can totally say me too. I mean we know so when people say well I just I have this judge in this case where I'm working on this and my target audience was real estate attorneys in this field. And so like we would be working on the same deals. So I did the teacher training. I actually received a scholarship they were giving away one free scholarship. All you had to do was give 150-word essay about what yoga meant for you. That was super easy for me.

[00:20:46] And I don't think many people applied did so I did that. My wife was hoping we would do it at the same time actually once our daughter got out of high school. But she's just a sophomore now. So I did it on my own. And then Nancy my wife actually did it the following You know a six month period afterward so she's gone through her teacher training. I've gone through mine. Listen I met through the Minnesota Citlali program stuff and yeah so we've just taken it from there. I'm not teaching at a studio and actually, I'm not teaching a regular class right now. I started out by being invited by a friend of mine at her. She was the local boss of a national title insurance company not where I'm working now.

[00:21:28] And she wanted to do a summer of fun for her. For her employees. And so I started we used a conference room in her office building and I just started doing Fridays for free for several months and then that office building offered me another place within their building to teach for free. And so it was right downtown and then so I just started to create this email list and invite more and more people. And it started out with me just saying I'm teaching on Friday at noon and then it became more. Here's an interesting e-mail about here's an interesting yoga story that I read. And here's an interesting thing about mindfulness. And so I started to provide more resources to my yoga peeps.

Jeena Cho: [00:22:11] Yeah I love hearing that journey of just how things unfold. Just because he showed up I mean you didn't have this like you know this entire plan figured out in terms of like a candidate. Do you have a teacher training program then and I start teaching it to you know lawyers it just kind of unfolds and. I often feel like that's what yoga teaches us. Sort of shelling out as you are you know in the moment and just seeing what unfolds as you know like a fire everyone that happens you know I think can relate to us. Is that.

[00:22:45] How you show up today is not going to be high up tomorrow like the body changes you change. And I love like just that teaching about life yoga. Yeah. It's Riffle. Yes.

Matthew Foli: [00:23:02] If I think the three of us certainly and you've got other guests if we are willing to just express that hey I'm not ready for this but I'm still going to do it anyways. And I'm not waiting for everything to be lined up before I embark on this journey. I think that our audience members are absolutely receptive and are looking for that in their own lives.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:24] Yeah. Yes. Regrade Yeah. And I now that both of you are involved in trying to bring these sort of Balmes masterful beings health care type of barbershops to them. The Minnesota legal communities. Curious to hear more about your efforts and also how that's being received in that community.

Matthew Foli: [00:23:47] Elyssa can talk about this and so can I. But so the Hennepin County Bar Association has created clubs. They've got like a knitting club in a wine tasting club and a book club and things like that trying to create social communities for the attorneys and I'm all for that. On a grand scale which they think that if-if you can connect with other attorneys on a nonbusiness setting it makes the business settings go so much smoother because you can be patient with each other and forgive each other because you've already you know it's harder to just snap at somebody who you already know in a social setting.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:22] Yeah so true.

Matthew Foli: [00:24:24] So one of them was the yoga club and they had had it for a year. And I think Elyssa got an email from them and then she contacted me and said Why don't we reach out to them see what they're doing. And the two people that were in charge were looking to hand it off and they had had only one event. I think in 2016 and so we listen to me what we what we are doing right now is we are offering one class a month. We do it at the CBA offices in one of the conference rooms. We've tried before work at noon and after work and we do it for FREE. It's an ctually it's a freewill donation for Minnesota lawyers concern for lawyers.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:05] But you know yeah such a wonderful organization. I know this giving them a shout out and using more than just cash is king right.

Matthew Foli: [00:25:16] So they give us cash and we turn around and we give it to LCL and they use it as they are. So the classes have been small. I mean you know and that's so funny with us too. And I'm sure this happened with the list and when she started teaching you to know you would tell people while I'm teaching and then the first question would always be well how many people come to your class.

[00:25:38] Like as if the judge said you only sold out crowd but you know elicit gets that with her day job because of the seven hours that she puts on. You know she you know I'm speaking for her but I know like I'm one of her speakers. And like I want a packed room. I don't want a small room even though for the people that come. It can be just as beneficial. You know let's say like you know you've never been to a class where you probably certainly for yoga when you've said Geez I wish there were more people in class you know so like where I feel like I would get less one on one attention from the teacher. So the classes have been small but we've been offering them and we have somebody else that sends out these gorgeous looking flyers and it's promoted in the HCB a website.

[00:26:31] So I think part of our plan of attack here is simply to make it relevant and show people that it's happening on a regular basis and not judging the results by the number of people that are in class.

Jeena Cho: [00:26:44] And I feel like that's the right attitude to have because you know attorneys may not be able to come to that particular yoga class but I think just seeing that on the schedule or at your bar associations events is a really powerful message. I think it normalizes you know health care normalizes is actually taking time for yourself. And that being a lawyer isn't just about knowing the law. You know it's really about the person's love.

Matthew Foli: [00:27:19] So we switch off classes I teach one month and then elicit teaches the next month.

Elissa Meyer: [00:27:23] And we don't compare who gets more than one time.

Matthew Foli: [00:27:28] OK. I think it does. But you know something else that we've learned and this is something that with my new job now is that I used to have time for the lunch hour. And you know with my e-mails and then my classes my own classes that I would teach on Fridays I would teach one at 7:00 and one at noon and I would have plenty of classes where nobody would come. Nobody would come and I would send out an e-mail to 180 people. I told one person that it felt like inviting a 180 people to your birthday party and only 60 people read the invitation. And zero come you. That's how I was personalizing everything. Right. And Elyssa offers yoga before a full day Sealy's as a little wellness component. And she's been pushing that where maybe it's like a two-day conference and each day in the morning they're going to have yoga and they provide the mats and maybe like the first day. But nobody came at them the second day one person came and said hey listen we'll send me this e-mail saying like you know I'm not judging this and this is OK and she's got such a good attitude.

[00:28:35] If she can believe it and like you know if she can. So the deal that I wanted to say was that like with this new job that I have now I even think like a 45-minute yoga class at noon maybe too long no I think like maybe a half hour is what we should be offering. Just because we want to get them there and Gina you talk about this a lot. Right. You don't say that you should be meditating for 20 minutes you. You had that one where you said two minutes a day for 21 days now. Right. Just like doing it every day for two minutes. It's been more beneficial than doing it. You know like having that crappiest a day and then saying oh jeez you know something maybe I should meditate some more and then meditate for the first time in three weeks to teach yoga.

Elissa Meyer: [00:29:22] I think to practice yoga like you. And I think another person you interviewed about this you know mentioned something like this like its humbling. You know you put yourself out there and you don't know how it's going to be received and despite your best intentions and your greatest hopes like it just might not work out how you anticipate it and so that's humbling and to not personalize it is difficult but important. So like what I what I've started to try to process the longer I teach and the more I teach and in them the more venues that I teach fight like the practice it's I'm the teacher maybe I'm up there but like it's never really about me.

[00:30:03] It's about what you know. So the time and holding that space like it's just none of it's about me. Like when people come to class whatever experience they have like it's really not about me and this I get reminded of this it shows up in all different ways. A few nights ago I was teaching a class and you know the studio I teach is small and it's kind of quirky and it's very informal and throughout the class there were a couple of people next to each other and they kept like sort of chattering and laughing and I would say something and then they would chat or laugh and I kind of felt like they were laughing at me and I was like Why are you laughing at me.

[00:30:40] And they're like oh we're not. And I was like Oh right because it's not me. You know they were like sort of having this experience and they were like you know it was about something else entirely and it just sort of was like oh remember like it's this is not about you.

[00:30:55] And so I just kind of try to keep that in mind when no one comes or when someone doesn't come back to a class you know it's like well I hope they find you know another place or another teacher or something that feels like a better fit because it's about their experience and what it means to them and it's not so much about.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:13] So I think such a beautiful metaphor for how we live life and also how we pass this law because the outcome is never up to us like I can prepare all we want and that he and I we don't. It's not you know it is just like you can shop and do everything you can to chat at all.

[00:31:32] What are some issues that are not completely up to you and instead of letting go of that and resolve and not judging yourself by the ultimate outcome is such a hard but important lesson to learn.

Elissa Meyer: [00:31:49] Yeah and you know it's just like one of the yoga in general for me is just sort of this great metaphor and why I think it's so compatible with a law practice like in all these different ways it just reveals kind of these important and helpful lessons that make it easier to sustain you know sort of yourself in a practice that's as intense as law you know like it's really intense and conflict ridden and emotional and so you know finding ways to sort of manage that. And for me, yoga has been a really important part of it so I just think it's interesting all the time learning these different ways to look at it and use it. So thanks for helping to capture that yeah.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:34] Yeah. And I actually think that kind of leads me to my next topic a conversation with trendies NYTs that we have about yoga practice like. You know I can only do yoga or you know you start to like me. So it was sort of the purpose of practicing yoga which you already started to talk about and it's not just about the physical aspect of it it's not meant to be like an aerobic exercise. Now can you talk a little bit more about some of the myths that you noticed particularly lawyers have about yoga and spelling?

Elissa Meyer: [00:33:16] Yeah so start I know Matthew has a lot to add here too but right. So traditionally the physical yoga practice was meant to prepare people to sit still to sit in meditation. So the practice of the physical component of the practice was this lead up to finding stillness in the body and readying the body to be still and that's you know I think in the western world in a modern culture that's not really how we look at it. We look at it like this really intense opportunity for physical practice and that sometimes that can be OK. But you know if you if you look back and learn more about the philosophy and the history there's a little bit different picture to find.

[00:34:01] I think one other thing is that US asana practice the physical practice is just one small component of what yoga is right. There are all these other ways in the tradition to practice yoga which include studying the philosophy or kind of karma yoga like service yoga there's meditation there are breathing exercises you know there are all these different ways to experience it. So. So I think that's one thing that is not always discussed yoga right like we hear or compare it to Yoga means all these crazy contorted poses and practices or Instagram version of yoga right. And the poses are beautiful. I mean I don't mean to minimize them. But there's a bigger picture to it I think and then you know then I think some other common things I hear like well I'm just not flexible so I can't come to yoga. And you know I don't know I didn't I'm not naturally that flexible. So you don't know.

[00:35:08] So if you can sort of put that aside and be like you build flexibility by coming to yoga and that's you know some physical flexibility is also translating into a little mental flexibility. So if you can set that aside and sort of think about the growth opportunity there like what you start to build as you practice more. That's helpful. And then you know I think like what you look like when you practice like you know there's a lot of attention about like the right the right athletic wear what looks great you know.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:40] But one thing you know when you speak your mind. Right.

Elissa Meyer: [00:35:46] Right. So when I you know when we teach during the lunch hour or like a couple of times that I've taught before seminars like I'll come in the you know sort of like business casual wear that I plan to wear for the rest of the day because the point is not that you're going to get so sweaty and like you need to be wearing like separate clothes it's that if you're comfortable if you're in something that's comfortable you can move in it like you can do yoga and that. So I think she's trying to help people understand that you know it's not going to be so intense.

[00:36:17] And so I don't know I mean the last one I think is just I hear people talk about like well how awkward it would be to be doing yoga around your colleagues like I don't want it to. So I think that you know and that's like that's hard. I sometimes feel like I've had a little anxiety about wanting to teach my colleagues or teach to people at seminars where I'm like teaching yoga first and then I have to go like be the you know be the voice of the seminar introducing and welcoming them like there is a boundary there right that like traditionally I think we see like we don't cross it or whatever but you know so like we try to keep the lights a little lower and like you know make it so.

[00:37:01] Like real people are coming there for themselves kind of goes back to remembering really like much about you like no one's really going to be that focused on what you're doing so you can sort of just show up there and have the experience like it might not be that awkward after all.

Jeena Cho: [00:37:16] So I don't know Matthew has unhappy before and you share some of the myths and you don't run across anything one that comes up so often as that joke is only for women. I don't know. You know I think that's because like so many yoga classes tend to be very women have these self when I kind of start there and say just ask you know what. What's that like. I mean I'm assuming when you're going to the yoga teacher training and you're sitting up and I could be wrong that you were sort of in the minority in terms of gender.

Matthew Foli: [00:37:52] Yeah totally yeah. Yeah so my teacher training it was probably it was me and another gentleman that were the students and the rest were women I think we had like 10 or 11 total and you know for me on a personal level like that's you know that's OK. Like you know I got a twin sister she's my only sibling. My mom and dad got divorced when we were 10th graders and we lived with my mom basically. It is so yeah you know it was OK.

[00:38:23] I mean I'm comfortable in settings that are predominantly female. But what's also interesting there is just then the male perspective and the male perspective like open up about stuff all men are they do not and especially like this profession male attorneys do not like to on a whole like to deal with their emotions.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:46] I know. Yes. Completely Yeah and I think when you are it National I actually have a male.

Matthew Foli: [00:38:57] And certainly plenty of women are the same way. So I'm the one then who has decided like I'm just going to like lay it all out there all the time you know like a friend of ours in the real estate community that committed suicide last October 2016. And so I started sending out my e-mails probably like around like June or so and started getting more people. And then the suicide happened on October 16 and I sent out one afterward. Just said like you know like play times over like this is what we're talking about like this is serious. This is one of our own. We were all better off when she was around and instead of like just going back to work Monday morning and forgetting about this let's think about what can we do to enroll the yoga and the meditation like those are not. Those are things to take the rough edges off to smooth the rough edges. You know you've got bigger problems you need to go seek to counsel. You may have other issues.

[00:39:52] But for me I was kind of like in-between like with LCL like I'm the person who's supposed to I'm like the poster child for just being like dealing with insecurity and perfection and then like coming out as being really judgmental like That's my target audience because that was me like I didn't have an alcohol problem. And I did like a drug addiction or things like that I didn't feel like I might have gone through counseling more than once. But I just felt like you know these other things were like You know I'm trying to talk to the people that are just struggling with the same stuff that all of society is struggling with and I'm just saying like well like try yoga like go to a yoga class. So I think it's absolutely good for men and Gina. I'll send you the little blurb that says that if you say you aren't flexible enough for yoga that's like saying you're too dirty to take a bath.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:51] I'm hearing now that that's treatable. Yeah.

Matthew Foli: [00:40:57] So I'm going to switch it up and just talk about the benefit of meditation because I actually think for attorneys that the meditation more so than the yoga is the that's the secret weapon that we just have chosen not to tap into. And I think if you know just the consistent meditation and I'll tell you what I do not consistently meditate and I've had like stressful weeks. And Nancy my wife says to me is you meditating. And I say no I'm not. Why would I do that?

[00:41:26] So I mean I'm not doing it on a regular basis but I certainly have seen the benefits of it and I just know that it's there for me when I get back into it and I'm going to be doing that with my co-workers. I think I want to preach to them about it. But like for instance like when I had this yoga teacher beginning of 2015 I went to her class and it was like one of my worst days that I can remember. And I chose to be in the corner of the classroom was a small rectangular class and I decided to be in the corner so that I could I could choose not to have people on two sides of me. And she decided to start the class.

[00:41:59] It was right after the Monday after the Super Bowl and she said well I read that the Seattle Seahawks had practiced like vision work and then also meditation and so we're going to meditate for the first 10 minutes. And so I just sat there not knowing anything about it. And then it was an hour long yoga class and then the 10 minutes go up and she said well you can certainly stay meditating. You would get all the same benefits that we will get from actually flowing in this yoga class. And so I stayed there for a little bit longer because nothing for me was working in my life at that point. And I just figured well what the hell I might as well try this.

[00:42:33] So I stayed for a little bit longer with my eyes closed until I got too self-conscious and then I just picked up where the class was and I saw her after class and I just walked up and I said well what would be the benefits of actually doing an hour-long meditation and she said her eyes got wide and she said well you would be less quick to react to others and more able to respond. You would be able to utilize a pause before you react.

[00:43:01] I'm not as judgmental and you know I just thought God I could really use a lot of that my life you know my job. I was such where I was in a position where I felt like I was playing chess with a beginner and I was always five moves ahead. And I would be impatient on the phone calls and I would know exactly where they wanted to get and I was you know I was in the public sector and so they're calling me for help getting to someplace and I'm like you know you don't have to tell me what you need I'll just tell you what you need. Like I mean I knew where you needed to go. Right. And you know meditation is what we could use to just smooth out.

[00:43:38] You know it's just it's all the stuff you know and I love those metaphors about how like while you're waiting for the elevator that doesn't come while you're in the checkout line and somebody has to go out and get a carton of eggs you know they leave the line to go get something in front of you while you're waiting for the stoplight. That won't change and you're late to get to the meeting. You know all those times when you can. And so the meditation they say about how well that's just breath work all you need to do is focus on your breath but every yoga class that I go to right now that's what they say at the beginning of class. They say you know this is a breathing class in the poses are secondary. And so I think that it also I think meditation would be more accessible to our audience that finds it difficult to take time out to go to a yoga class.

Jeena Cho: [00:44:22] You know I think that's always a challenge. I like actually making it to a yoga class. And I want to just give up high-grade hair for a YouTube yoga instructor its yoga with Ajman. And she has these amazing. And like such a fangirl of her, it is very she is really sharp practices some of them like less than five minutes where you can just get it you know on your iPhone or your TV or your laptop and just do these really sure at this. So I think if you have well you like a full yoga class like an hour long class you know it's really about meeting yourself where you're at. So I think that's another really great thing that's a matter of living in the era that we're living and why there's just so much content available. And so you don't necessarily have to go to your yoga.

Matthew Foli: [00:45:17] Jeena I'll send you the one that I like of hers which is yoga at your desk.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:21] Oh I love that line use that one all the time.

Matthew Foli: [00:45:25] And I think the audience members would appreciate that one too. Yeah, she's great. I love her too. You know she had that 30 days of yoga a couple of years ago and you don't get you.

Jeena Cho: [00:45:36] This is January like a year. My husband and I did all 31 days and it was such a great way to start off that year. So I hope she does it again. But if she doesn't like you go check it out.

Matthew Foli: [00:45:50] Yeah I know like some days would be 20 minutes and then some days would be 50 minutes and I tried to do it with Nancy for a while and they just gave up and she continued to do it because I wasn't as consistent as she was. But yeah I would I like about her is you really kind of feel like you're getting her authentic personality through the videos and that was something that I was promoted to me by the people that do the business of yoga for yoga journal which was to be a good yoga teacher. You have to be yourself like you like. You should not be a different person outside of the yoga studio as you are inside the yoga studio and they talk about one person that like he swears a lot and he plays rock n roll. Well, that's the type of teacher he should be. Should be swearing in the studio and you should be playing right. You know that's people that's who people gravitate to. So it's when you are yourself in all facets of your life.

Elissa Meyer: [00:46:40] Yeah I think the thing about the timing or the place of a yoga practice suits like it's important to see that it will come in cycles right like sometimes you'll be able to maybe go to a studio or take a class somewhere at the YMCA or your gym or whatever and other times it's not going to happen. And so like an allowance for letting that change over time and being flexible with it or maybe sometimes it's like a book or I think there are even like flashcards for yoga there are all these different ways to access it. So I like that point too that you can find it. It's about finding where it meets you know are meeting it where you can.

Jeena Cho: [00:47:26] Yeah. So we kind of get ready to wrap up the conversation I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about what you guys are seeing and I can certainly share my observations just about. Louis is a profession that really embracing the wealthy. You know I was just so thrilled to see that the AP actually published an entire. Bar on well-being for lawyers and they gave every stakeholder to our situation. Law firms law professors lawsuit as you know these different ways that they can help to further lawyer involve things they think that the data is really kind of scary and alarming.

[00:48:17] And you know I don't use that word lightly. You know when I heard of our profession is suffering from depression and high levels of stress and anxiety a problematic trend and in a trend that is said and certainly just the most heartbreaking suicides it's and it just feels like we've been talking about these issues for such a long time without much in terms of solutions so you know I guess you notice actually your role as a working with a Sealy's and doing this program is like what have you been observing it just in terms of our wellbeing type of workshops or courses and how it's being incorporated.

Elissa Meyer: [00:48:58] Yeah I think there's just it's so exciting to me because there's so much more receptivity you know. Right. There's so much more opportunity I think to incorporate it and like that task force report. Do you know that you're talking about you know when it came out in August this year? I was. I saw it posted right away. I like her into that. I started reading it and I was just thrilled. You know I was just like yes we're finally going to start talking about solutions like we're going to. It's not just going to be terrible reports and data that tells you know these stories about how we're struggling and then we fail to really acknowledge what that means and what we can do about it as a profession.

[00:49:36] So like it was exciting especially for me because I flagged all these points in the report where they talk about Citlali as sort of a vehicle for talking about wellbeing and wellness. And I had you know so I think that report just helps kind of validate and give momentum to this. And I've seen that lots of other places you know Minnesota CLV as part of a trade group of sort of national CLV a national group of Seelie providers so state bar associations and private providers. And I think among that group there's a lot more attention to these topics and how to how to incorporate them into programs how to heighten awareness and make information more accessible and so I definitely brought the sort of tipping point of the conversation I know locally here.

[00:50:30] I've also seen other leaders in our community who are writing more and talking more about their experiences and the past. One of the past presidents of the head of the county bar association wrote an article I think he kind of wrote a monthly blog post but one of them was about sort of him starting a yoga practice you know kind of unexpectedly finding it and then unexpectedly seeing all these benefits that he wrote about. So just you know more and more people coming forward and being willing to talk about their experience and what they're doing you know sort of how they're struggling and what they're doing about it and sharing those ideas because I think you know it comes back to this point that we sometimes forget when we're like in our heads and just trying to deal with all the stuff in our own lives. But like we're all in this together like we're all here in this profession trying to figure it out together.

[00:51:26] And that goes beyond just the profession. I mean that's just a human thing. But it's helpful to remember that and I think work forward under that framework. So the more we can support each other and figure out ways to do this together you know the sort of easier and it becomes awful.

Jeena Cho: [00:51:46] Yeah and I think you know it sort of focusing on while being kind hum and much many different labors is right there is like one singular to care for your well-being because it's like multi-dimensional and a one ship that I have been noticing since some of the conferences that I'm going to is that there is the emphasis on activities that involved drinking. So certainly there are certain conferences where they just don't have the open bar happy hours but other conferences are noticing or doing like mornings sort of physical activities like a fun run or yoga and meditation in the morning so that you know they do sort of have the open bar the night before there is this you know I think people feel freer to say well I know I'm actually I signed up for that 10k in the morning so I'm not going to stay up until 2:00 am getting tranquil.

[00:52:39] And I think that's really just at least one step in the right direction is just something as simple as like not having all of your social functions. You know the focus on the drinking which I feel like a sort of. So the fabric of our culture as lawyers and you know like from law school. Oh, my grace I like bar reviews on Thursday where we just get drunk and that's really sort of problematic in our profession that sort of the only tool we have in our toolbox are letting go of stress and anxiety.

Matthew Foli: [00:53:13] Yeah I agree and especially this time of year with holiday parties. No law firm holiday parties and things like that and gifts that are being sent out. I talked to somebody at my office because they had started out well would you like Matthew would you like to be part of the wine tasting for the gifts that we're going to give away to clients. And I said Well how about like non-alcoholic gifts. What about just like a donation to LCL or a donation to a food shelf or something like that weight where you make a donation in that company's name or something like that. You know it's just like they don't even have to do it. And this is what the whole thing I think with like there really is resilience thing. It's just being the awareness.

[00:53:56] You know I just think like we need to end up talking to the three of us but in the audience members to like just voice these other alternatives to show that like I'm at least make the other person think about it rather than just being the unconscious decision that well the only option is the bar. But the only option is the party with alcohol or something like that. You know there are like just about a little about five minutes of meditation and one less beer you know whatever that like. So that means in my mind years and let us unlet instead of six or you know two instead of three. It doesn't matter. It's just like you know that's kind of a little bit of the balance that we're talking about. You know Jean I just want it so Elyssa had brought the report with her and she had it all.

[00:54:39] Dog-eared she said to me back in August. And this lead that she's putting on in January practiced well for the Minnesota state Minnesota. That's a full day thing about health and resilience for lawyers. It's kind of patterned upon the this the path to lawyer well-being but the one quote that I found in this thing and this is on page 12 of the article itself it says that many in the legal profession have behaved at best as if their colleague's well-being is none of their business.

[00:55:16] And at worst some appeared to believe that supporting well-being will harm professional success. And you know when I read this the first time about when it says they behave as if their colleague's well-being is none of their business. I thought of that as being like one law firm where the partners would not care about their other partner's well-being. But I think you can read it more globally to say that all of us in the profession that we have done we have not done enough to care about other attorneys within the profession because I feel strongly that and you see this like you know when they have the article that's about how this law this law school is now having a mindfulness class. And then you see the letters to the editor which is well all attorneys can just go to the bottom of the ocean and we would all you know the society would be better.

[00:56:06] You know I think that you know society as a whole doesn't respect or appreciate the legal profession and then so like why are why the US within do the profession beat up on each other so much. You know we should be protecting and supporting each other. So I think that that's kind of like the bigger issue for me. And you know like you think about the person that's in the law firm that you know all the issues that you go through on a personal level. Right.

[00:56:33] Like whether it's like a breakup a relationship or a breakup of a marriage or a miscarriage or a family member that's struggling or a suicide in the family or you know all of those things and you do not want the response to be from like the partner to be to the association which is well you know we really need you to jump to bounce back quickly from that because you know we need you to get your hours up again. You know we should all be supporting each other whether it's within the law firm or outside of the law firm. And part of it takes the courage of the person to not answer the question how are you with just saying I'm fine. You know part of that requires the person. This is what I stumbled onto. If you listen to the podcast terrible thanks for asking.

Jeena Cho: [00:57:17] Okay good yeah.

Matthew Foli: [00:57:19] Nora Mack and Ernie and that is the whole premise of that podcast are that you know if we were honest with each other we would say I'm having a bad day. You know Prince Harry I don't remember her name. She had a podcast from Britain last year which was this mad world and he was the first guest and he talked about his struggle with mental illness and he said you know on a Friday we would all be better off if we just told somebody close to us that I've had a really crappy day and get it off your chest rather than carry it around with you on the weekend.

[00:57:51] So I think we can do all of us on just the individual level we can all do a better job at it. You said this Gina. I listened to your Florida webinars that you did and you talked about that situation where you had somebody another attorney that you were not connecting with and somehow either she said it or you prompted her and she said I had a sick kid this weekend and that was what broke down the barriers for you to connect with her on a more personal level. And then it makes you kind of like then realize that you know what. Like this lease, negotiation doesn't have to end up being attended anything victory for me.

Jeena Cho: [00:58:33] Yeah. Even just that idea of like just like me and my dad just recognizing our common humanity like just like me you know I have bad days she has bad days and good days and just like me you know she sometimes has scared and maybe that's the reason why she sent that nasty e-mail and not because she's a terrible person.

[00:58:52] So yeah I think we can really sort of give ourselves and each other a little bit of a benefit to going out and to really this that's of empathy and compassion and really feel like is sorely lacking in our society now. Maybe like when I have the guys back. Around you and me because I do kind of enjoy the unfolding conversations and now I'm like I want to come out and see that in good a yoga class. So yeah we are. And my final question and I'll let you guys decide who's going to answer first. Is this the name of this? I've is the entire resilient lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient boy?

Matthew Foli: [00:59:37] It's ego so I'll go first. What it means to me is being aware of the triggers that we face on a regular basis and not necessarily always seeing down before we react poorly but perhaps recognizing them afterward and saying next time I can do better. You know I don't have to answer the phone on an empty stomach. I did it just now. It didn't turn out well. Next time I'm going to eat before I call that person back. So it's like these little things that you can use on a regular basis to promote longevity in this profession because I do not think that the idea of Wake Up Kick-Ass repeat is sustainable in our profession.

Jeena Cho: [01:00:25] Yeah I totally agree with.

Elissa Meyer: [01:00:28] You know we sort of prepped that this question would be coming so I've been thinking about it a lot and as with many things you know what you find like when you're thinking about something or trying to come up you know trying to reflect on it. Like all these, all these things start coming back at you. So I was reading an article written by a friend last week and she was not talking about lawyers or anything to do with a resilient lawyer but she was writing this article responding to a question about like what-what quality she most wants to teach her children. She has these you know twins that are almost 1 year old. And as she wrote the story you know she came to this point where she was this quality the thing she most wants to impart to her children is resilience and the way she defined it was returning to the self after being banned compressed or stretched.

[01:01:25] And I just thought that was so you like. Yes right. Yes. So you know this ability to come back to yourself after something happens or as you gain experience and say like how can I use this. What does it mean to me? You know being able to take it for a lesson and layer it on and if it's useful keep it and if it's not useful you know to figure out where to place it and then move forward.

Jeena Cho: [01:01:58] I love that. Thank you so much for taking time to be with us. I appreciate your time and I said I just appreciate the work that you're doing and also thank you so much.

Matthew Foli: [01:02:14] You're welcome. This is fun. I'm glad we did this.

Elissa Meyer: [01:02:16] Thank you and thanks to you for all that you're doing and all of the wonderful conversations that you're having with people across the country it's really fun to be a listener of your podcasts as well. So thank you. Thank you.

Closing: [01:02:32] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this bonus episode, I share 3 concrete strategies for working with the negative inner chatter or the "inner critic."

Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th.

I’ll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week.

Register here: https://jeenacho.com/workshop

Hi everyone! The Resilient Lawyer has been on a long hiatus because I've been super busy with the book project. I am SO happy to say, the book is out in the world! It's been a l-o-n-g project (3 years).

I'm delighted to bring you this new episode with my dear friend, collaborator and co-author of The Anxious Lawyer! She's such an amazing person and this project would not have been possible without her.

In this episode, we chat about:

• FinTech
• Karen's background — her career, meditation practice
• Navigating career transitions 
• Reconciling litigation practice with parenting
• Importance of having a daily practice

Also, The Anxious Lawyer book is now available in Audio! Head on over to Amazon and download it. 

In this episode, I am excited to have Leslie Wallis on to discuss the benefits of compassion, care, listening while seeing, and recognizing secondary trauma that comes with the career.

Leslie Wallis is a shareholder at Ogletree Deakins, where she provides advice and counsel, training, and litigates employment-related matters. Before entering the legal arena, Leslie was a professional ballet dancer. Now she works with individuals and companies as a mindfulness facilitator and speaks about bringing mindfulness programs into the workplace. Her passion is in increasing the breadth of human awareness and introducing anxiety-ridden professionals to the concepts of compassion and self-care.

Topics Covered

• The underlying trauma of practicing law that most lawyers don't recognize and how it impacts attorneys.
• The "C" words that we don't speak (compassion, care, "kindness") and how these attributes help you to be a better lawyer.
• Finding the body and learning how to see and feel how different parts of the body are affected by different secondary trauma ailments. She also goes into how dance and movement and the intellectual exercises in both law and business can compliment each other.
• Learning to listen, and the effect attentive listening has on ethics and secular mindfulness.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

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Transcript

Leslie Wallis: [00:00:00] Well I don't think compassion is concession. If you can exercise compassion, you have a better ability then to make an argument that's going to be heard by the other side, so that you can move forward and advocate for your client in a much more effective way.

Intro: [00:00:19] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have my friend Leslie Wallis. She is a shareholder at Ogletree Deakins, where she provides advice and counsel, training, and litigates employment-related matters. Before entering the legal arena Leslie was a professional ballet dancer. Now she works with individuals and companies as a mindfulness facilitator and speaks about bringing mindfulness programs into the workplace. Her passion is in increasing the depth of human awareness and introducing anxiety-ridden professionals to the concept of compassion and self-care.

[00:01:22] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my bonus episode on working with loneliness, go back and check it out. I shared a 6-minute guided meditation to help you work with a sense of loneliness, which I think a lot of lawyers can feel. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, but they don't have the time. Mindful Pause is designed for busy lawyers like you, and is designed to be done in just 6 minutes. So head on over to JeenaCho.com or check it out and the show notes. And with that, here's Leslie. Hello Leslie, welcome to the show.

Leslie Wallis: [00:01:56] Hi Jeena, I'm so happy to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:59] Let's get started by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Leslie Wallis: [00:02:05] Well, my name is Leslie Wallace. I have practiced law now for 32 years. I'm kind of surprised I'm still doing it, but I do still do it. And I also, as you said, have a passion around mindfulness and how we practice law now, watching how the practice has changed over the years. And so my goals are more around resolution, understanding each other, advising people, and trying to remember the human aspects of being a counselor, as well as what we do as zealous advocates.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:47] Yea, and I think that idea of being a counselor is so critical to what we do as lawyers. We're not just robots, we don't just produce documents; that we play the role of being a counselor. And I know you have spoken a lot about working with the trauma of that is often involved in practicing law. So tell us about that.

Leslie Wallis: [00:03:11] Yeah, it's been an interesting journey for me, that I have done some training around facilitating mindfulness. But as I have introduced these concepts to people I work with or people who are our clients, I've started to realize that there is, for many of us, a trauma associated with the practice that we don't really recognize or maybe want to accept. And for some of us, it's a form of secondary trauma that comes from interactions with opposing counsel, it could be with court, it could be with our clients, either because our clients themselves are in pain or they're difficult.

But our practice on a day to day basis involves a lot of dealing with other people's problems, which we then tend to take on ourselves; it leads to demands on ourselves and some very unreal expectations about what we are capable of as people. And as a result, we end up experiencing ourselves either compassion fatigue or a form of secondary traumatic stress. And what I see that leads to is a number of things, avoidance of emotions and numbing, we see a lot of anxiety and depression in the profession. We may see that we become even more judgmental, not only of colleagues and opposing counsel and clients, but of ourselves or the people that we are close to, and that we may become cynical or even angry in terms of our practice. And these are all symptoms of experiencing this kind of trauma that we don't even talk about, and certainly we are not trained to deal with. Law school doesn't mention anything about trauma.

Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Yeah. Can you give maybe a specific example from your own life about some type of trauma that you experienced as a lawyer, and also how the mindfulness practice helped you to move through that trauma and what that looks like?

Leslie Wallis: [00:05:38] I practice employment law, and I actually practice it primarily now on the defense side; I do management practice, so we are typically defending cases. So we often have people, for example, who may be accused of something that they didn't do, or feel they didn't do. And so I might be hearing that for them, but I want to use a current.. something that just recently happened, because it's alive for me right now. And it was around trying to resolve a case. We had mediated it some months ago, it did not resolve. And then I got a call from a mediator saying, we can maybe resolve this. The other side is willing to move tremendously if you can do it basically immediately; you have two days to try and do this.

And it was like, 6:00 at night when I got the call. Like if you can do it by the end of the next business day, we can make this happen. And I was a little bit flummoxed about what the rush was suddenly after all this time, and I was told that my opposing counsel was going to sign a declaration saying that I had said something that was going to impact the case, and that after he signed that he assumed I would be unwilling to work with him anymore around resolution. So the immediate thing that happened for me, and I could feel it in my body, was that initial what did I do, what have I done wrong? What is my client going to think, and did I create some problem here? What is he talking about, where is this going? And then, being able to step back from that with all the arising emotions; I could feel it in my shoulders and my chest. And think wait a minute, this is where the mindfulness kicks in. This isn't about me, this is not about me. This is about this case, this is what my client wants to have happen, not what I want to have happen. That's not how I operate anyway.

And the idea that somebody who really doesn't know me, except I have not litigated across from this person before, would automatically jump to the idea that his opponent would be so unwilling even to talk once a statement which he must believe to be true would be made was rather astonishing. So yeah, it brought up all kinds of things about my own sense of self-worth, my own capabilities and all of that. And also then having to present to the client in advance, this may be coming down the pipe. And in this particular case, I was lucky my client didn't say, well why is he saying that? But that could happen, that has happened. Where you have your own client frustrated with how you got to a certain point; that in the process of making it happen it made sense, but in the context of whatever's coming up in your litigation or resolution is now a problem for them. And the blame starts coming or their frustration may shift to you, and you're trying to hold the other side's sense about you, your client's sense about yourself, and then whoever is actually involved in the litigation, hold their space at the same time to let them know what's happening. It's a lot to hold.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:39] Yeah, yeah. And as you're telling the story, I can feel the pit of my stomach drop, I can feel that tension. It's just such a bad feeling, when something like that happens and you just don't know what to expect and they're threatening you. It's just such an unpleasant feeling, and I think we as lawyers is something that we often experience. Which actually then leads me very nicely to the next topic of compassion and care, what you call the "C" words. So tell us about how compassion and kindness and caring for yourself and others helps you to be a better lawyer. Because I think so often lawyers kind of frown upon that, I know that's certainly been my experience. I talk about compassion and they're like, no I'm a lawyer. No, there's just no room for compassion. So actually maybe backing up a little bit, when we talk about compassion what does that mean to you, to start with?

Leslie Wallis: [00:10:39] So compassion (and this is not probably my definition, but one I've heard) is when caring comes up against someone else's pain. So there is some issue that is definitely not mine in the room, somebody else who is suffering in some way, and that I can see that person and whatever they are saying or doing as first of all human, and not just a vehicle for a message. And I think we lose that a lot in our effort to want to dive into our point and our message, and to show how smart we are and to remove ourselves from the emotional aspects of what we are doing.

Sometimes forgetting that this whole process, the whole legal process, is designed as a problem-solving vehicle for the society. So that we don't go around punching each other or hurting each other in other ways, we have a system set up that is without a doubt not perfect, but is better than some of the alternatives of what people try to do. But we are also, the one "C" word I think many, many lawyers, particularly litigators, would use is "competitive." And competitive, sometimes we don't think that it can be in the same room with compassion. And I don't know that that's true number one, and number two if I have a choice between competition and compassion I'm going to choose compassion every time, because I think ultimately that's going to get us to our result. Which is a resolution of a problem that both sides are acknowledging exists, whether or not they think that they are at fault for it; there is a problem or they wouldn't need us.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:51] Yeah. So what do you say to a lawyer who says I can't be compassionate because it's my job to advocate for my client? If I'm being compassionate towards the other side, that I would be conceding to what they want, or that I wouldn't be doing what's in the best interests of my client.

Leslie Wallis: [00:13:11] Well I don't think compassion is concession. Again, I think in order to make the best arguments we can for our clients, (we were taught this in law school) you need to be able to see the other side. What better way to see the other side and see what that human.. and I mean that even when you have a corporate client because a corporation has a name at the top of a building or on the door and a bunch of walls, but the people are what make it what it is. So it is understanding where they are coming from, why they're acting in the way they're acting, and understanding on the other side what they may be feeling that is driving whatever their concerns are. And if you can exercise compassion, you have a better ability to make an argument that's going to be heard by the other side, so that you can move forward and advocate for your client in a much more effective way. So I don't believe that compassion and effectiveness are at either end of the spectrum, I actually think that they coincide in the middle.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:25] Yeah, yeah. And I think you can be fierce and you can advocate for what you believe to be true and stand up, and do it in a way that's compassionate. And I know for me, when I started practicing compassion one of the hardest things I had to learn how to do was to be compassionate towards myself. And I remember having all kinds of concern in the beginning, like if I'm being compassionate towards myself how am I ever going to get off my butt and do stuff? I'll just be a complete lazy ass, right? I just had all kinds of misconceptions about being compassionate towards myself. Can you talk a little bit about what that journey was like for you? That journey of learning to be kinder towards yourself, and to hold yourself to a standard that's less than perfection?

Leslie Wallis: [00:15:18] Well that was really hard for me, and although I don't like to make generalizations I think that I'm going to make this one. Which is, I think many, many lawyers, maybe not all, but many lawyers are perfectionists. That's the type of personality often that is drawn to the profession, are people who have very high expectations of themselves and somehow, somewhere believe that perfectionism is possible. So this vision of the lawyer who always gets it right, who knows what to say in every situation, is in a lot of our heads. And the ability to look at myself and say, "I, like the person next to me, is also human, and that means I'm going to make mistakes is a form of compassion towards myself, but it doesn't mean I'm a doormat. And so I let everybody roll over me because I'm imperfect, and therefore I'm just going to make mistakes so oh well."

So there is a drive to do things right, and then to also appreciate that I am an imperfect human. I am imperfect because I am human. And then the part about self-care, I did find for myself also that in doing compassion practices or kindness practices of any sort, that (and I don't think my experience is unusual) being able to bring those to myself was far harder for me than being able to do that for somebody I care about, and people that I don't really know that well. That I might go out of my way to help them in a way I won't go out of my way to help myself, because that is seen as somehow a sign of weakness, that I need to take care of myself. We tend to push through to believe we can do things without sleep or without food or without.. you know, we're going to be stronger, better or faster than everybody else. And I'm sure you've used this phrase before as well, that we do need to put our own oxygen masks on first. We aren't really capable of taking care of our clients, our cases, whatever it is that we need to take care of, without standing on the ground ourselves, knowing where we are coming from. Because otherwise, the question will come to us, well how did you get there? Why are you saying this?

And when the ground isn't underneath your feet around that, you haven't really thought that through; you haven't really taken care of the space for yourself to say this is why this is going to work or I feel this way, it's really hard to make anybody else believe it. So that's part of it, but also just that self-care of the physical self-care that we tend to really abandon very quickly in this practice of law, as opposed to the practice of mindfulness, is something we do need to learn and stop thinking about as being selfish. It is not selfish to take care of oneself. I had someone tell me some years ago, and I really like this image, that they want to be a safe space for other people to be around. And my image of that was a tree that people could sit under, and be comfortable being there next to it. If the roots of that tree are not stable, you're not safe for the people who are sitting under you, or the people sitting by you.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:08] I love that image, wow.

Leslie Wallis: [00:19:10] So I see that self-care as watering and caring for the roots, so that I am able to be a safe space for my clients, for the people in my personal life as well, and to be able to hold myself steady and strong in the face of when people come after me. So when they are attacking, to realize how impersonal that attack may be; that that's not mine. I'm not carrying that, and I can stand with the issues that are important and be able to come back in as kind a way as I possibly can. Which may mean I'm very firm and I don't take what someone is saying to be even true in certain instances and point out why; that may be the kindest thing to do under the circumstances.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:02] You know, I think one of the things that come up often when we talk about self-care is caring for both the mind and the body. And it's interesting because when I first started going on this mindfulness journey, I think one of the things you realize is that emotions and so much of your direct experience to the world happens in the body, but I remember feeling like no, I don't have any emotions in the body. I don't even know what you're talking about; I do all of my thinking and all of my processing and all of my life experiencing through the mind. So can you talk a little bit about that connection between the mind and the body? That connection between the intellectual exercise in law and the importance of being connected to the body?

Leslie Wallis: [00:20:54] Yeah, this is a place that I really like to talk about and focus on. I think in some ways, I have an advantage over other people driven to this profession, because I started my life from when I was 3 years old in dance. I was a ballet dancer, so in ballet there's a lot of discipline; your expression is focused in a particular way. But it is definitely expression through the body. And still some of the same senses of perfectionism again and discipline that you get in the legal profession, so when people ask me how I got from point A to point B those are things I can actually talk about. But it was a little bit easier when I started in the mindfulness journey to say, oh I see that; I can feel that in my body, because I'm used to seeing where things happen in the body. Whereas I.. I have a slide in something that I present sometimes to lawyers, and it's a statue that's a head with two legs coming out of it. And I feel sometimes that that's what the people around me are like; that everything is in the head, and all that body is is a vehicle to move that head around the world. But if we stop for a minute and think wait, where am I feeling this? I'm agitated for example, that is something that we tend to think about in our head. Or I'm anxious.

What I can say to myself is, how do I know I'm anxious? How do I know I'm agitated? And it may be that there's looping thoughts going on in my head, but in fact the reason I know I'm anxious is because there's a tightness in my chest and my fists are balled or my shoulders are tight. I can remember when I first started practicing, there was a place on the left side of the middle of my back that was this hole that I would experience a lot of pain in, and I realized that's where I was holding a lot of the stress. That that's where it was for me. And then where does it go in my body, so I can trace it down? And the other question that can I ask myself to understand the mind and body connection is, where am I not feeling this? Is there a place that I don't feel anxious? Do my feet feel anxious, do my earlobes feel anxious? Does my nose feel anxious? And then noticing oh wait, I don't feel things perhaps in those places. So what anxiety is for me is this collection of sensations; and once I could see that, then I can pull those apart, they're not so controlling. Over, "Well I'm just anxious and my thoughts are zooming, and I can't stop them," which is a place that I certainly tended to go. Like, how do I stop this or I need to fix it.

[00:24:26] I'm a fixer. You know, you could be judgmental, you could be comparing, you could be a fixer. I'm probably all three, but my default is fixing. I'm just going to fix the problem and I'm going to think my way out of it. And noticing one, no matter where my thoughts are, no matter where my mind is, which is often planning in the future for me. How am I going to fix what happened yesterday? My body is here in the present; it's always in the present. So when I can come back and see what's happening right now, you can say wait a minute I'm not at risk right now; nobody's threatening me right now in this moment. So I can take a breath around that, I can notice.. or even just engaging in the conversation and I think, oh am I saying the right thing? Where do I feel that? I actually can feel it in my thighs right now. That's interesting, that I'm feeling that there. And as I breathe into it, it doesn't go away but it releases a little bit.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:39] And I found paying attention to the physiological response of anxiety.. so I always feel it in the center of my chest; I can always notice my heart beating faster, my stomach will clinch up. And paying attention to that and working on softening the belly and breathing a little bit slower and deeper is much more effective in managing anxiety than trying to logic or reason my way out of anxiety. Because my mind, the anxious brain, is so much better at telling me that it's totally justified to feel anxious and why wouldn't you feel anxious. So it's not a fight that I can win with my own mind; versus it's much easier for me to go, oh yeah I can definitely feel it in the pit of my stomach, let me just focus on breathing. I actually found that to be a much more effective strategy for working with anxiety than trying to think my way out of it. I think that's so often what we try to do, is we try to logic our way out of that unpleasant feeling that we're experiencing.

Leslie Wallis: [00:26:48] The one thing we're trained in is logical thinking. So it's not exactly surprising, especially as lawyers that that's what we do. But I have found, even with clients.. I've had clients where they're really frustrated about some problem that's going on or they have an issue with an employee and they'll call and say, "In my day I'd just do this and that." And that I can actually say to them before we even start this conversation, just take a breath. Because (and here's where the compassion comes in too) I understand you're frustrated; I understand this is really upsetting and this is what you would like to do. But if you could take a breath, then we can then actually reason our way through what's going on. But in fact, very often where we think we're reasoning we're going from an emotional response.

And being with the body allows us to get back to noticing again like you said, just releasing the things that are causing the tensions physically in the body, to a place where we can hear; we can hear what's actually being said. We can hear what's around us, and then resolve whatever the issue of the moment is and really look at that issue instead of what happened yesterday, what's happening tomorrow, and how we're creating problems before they even happen. That happened for me a lot in advice work, where people will say well what if this happens, what if that happens? There are an indefinite number of possibilities of what might happen. Here are a few of the ones that are most likely, but really we need to take the next step. So just focus on this, and then let's reconvene and see how to deal with the next step instead of going into that anxious loop about what if, what if, what if, what if.

Jeena Cho: [00:28:51] Yeah, which is not particularly helpful because when things do go off track, it never goes off track in the exact way that you had anticipated or imagined. So I find that "what if" exercise to be not terribly helpful; all it does is increase anxiety and that sense of helplessness.

Leslie Wallis: [00:29:11] And that's the other thing we as lawyers like to do, is control everything. So when we feel helpless, we tend to wind ourselves up a lot. So understanding that we don't have that much control over our clients, opposing counsel, what the court's going to do or the docket, and we realize how little we actually do have control over, it allows me to let go of more things and just say okay something's going to happen. Things happen, right now it's like this. What am I going to do about what's happening right now?

Jeena Cho: [00:29:57] I think one thing that mindfulness has taught me is that, I always considered myself to be a good listener but I realized I'm not actually that great a listener. It actually taught me to listen in a very different way than the way that I was used to, and I'm curious how a mindfulness practice has helped you to be a better listener, or learning how to listen?

Leslie Wallis: [00:30:24] Yeah, that's a really important thing. One of the things that we learn in law school is we are trained how to listen with one ear. And it's important, it is important to a certain extent. We need to think on our feet a lot, particularly in the litigation context where the judge or opposing counsel may be making an argument and you need to be able to think about that, and to be formulating your response. That is necessary, I'm not pretending that it's not. But if we actually are able to (and I think mindfulness has really helped this) listen with instead of 20% of our body and our ear towards what they're actually saying, and 80% creating what we're going to do next. If we can shift that dynamic so it's 50/50 or maybe, even more, listening than planning the next part of our argument or our conversation, we may find that we're hearing different things and that our response is going to change.

And that that response may be much more reasoned, and also much more engaged. When the other side or the judge or your client or your friend or your spouse or your child thinks you are listening, really listening to them, they are much more likely also to listen to you. And your response to that, the message that they're giving out is going to be framed in a manner that may be more effective rather than less effective.

[00:32:20] It is a hard exercise to do. I mean I like also to think that I am able to listen, but I've realized in my mindfulness practice how often I want to jump in, either to say oh yes I've experienced that also, or no no no, this is really where you should be going. You need to go or have you heard, or have you thought about..? Instead of letting the person get to the end of their discussion, where they will actually be turning towards me.. to stream back to where I started this and that traumatic experience of what this attorney was going to say about me, it ended up that what he put in his declaration was very, very limited. And what he put in his papers was very, very complimentary of me. I don't know whether it was out of fear, it certainly wasn't based on a personal experience. But he ended up almost undoing his own comments, by saying how much he respected me. And it left me with this smile and this feeling of, well that is really interesting where that landed. And had I not waited to see that that was coming next and only attacked or been prepared to attack the first comment, my interaction with him would be very different.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:56] Yeah. And I think we can so often fall into that trap of jumping to conclusions, or even the way that you're listening; you're listening, but your brain is yammering away the whole time, coming up with your defenses and coming up with your responses and your rebuttals. And you might miss what the person is actually saying in the process and not fully understand what's being said, and oftentimes what's not being said. And if you truly listen, you can ask follow-up questions and with curiosity say, "Well I heard you say this, but how about that?" And it's almost magical in a way, when you can show up with that sense of openness. It diffuses the other person; they may show up with a lot of anger, hostility, defensiveness, so on and so forth. But if you can allow yourself to listen with that sense of openness, then it's like they don't have something to push up against so it makes it less likely that the conversation will spiral out of control and get hostile or unproductive.

Leslie Wallis: [00:35:07] Yeah, in my personal life I have some family members who are very, very difficult people; just suffering a lot of both physical and emotional pain. And my lessons in dealing with them have carried over into my professional life, and one of the things I have learned is when there is this push back and blame and, "I think you're saying this or why are you doing that or I believe this is wrong or immoral or difficult or whatever," then I can say I don't disagree with you about "x" maybe, but I disagree with you about "y". Or I disagree with you about this but I still feel.. let me use a specific example because it's a little hard in the generalities. I was sitting in the car having a conversation with one of my family members who said, "I don't know why you're still friends with this particular person; they've done something that I think was harmful." And my response, that I don't think would have been before I was a mindfulness practitioner; I might have been very defensive.

The friend is somebody I've known essentially my entire life. And I said, you know I don't disagree with you what this person did was wrong. I might even argue that it was unethical or immoral, but he's still my friend. And that action was not all of what I know this person is. And that was a much wiser response than I would have been able to do, had I not listened to everything that my family member was saying to me, and be able to say, "Yeah I hear you; I'm listening to what you're saying. It makes sense to me that this is how you feel, and my feelings about this are different. And they're my feelings, they're just my feelings. This is my own experience." And I think we can bring that into our professional lives; I hear you, we hear what you're saying. This is what we do as lawyers, and I have a different perspective. Can you hear me?

Jeena Cho: [00:37:37] Yeah, and that's such a powerful experience. Even if you don't agree, just that sense of being heard and understood can really soften and have that human connection; I think that's one of our most desired things that we want as humans, is to be heard and understood and have that sense of connection with others. So that doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with the other person; all those things can happen and you can still have your different perspectives.

Leslie Wallis: [00:38:10] Yeah, I think it also leads to trust in the professional relationship. The other side trusts that you're going to do what you said. And that they trust in you as a person to listen to them, even if you're going to do something completely different than they want you to do. And that trust is important in allowing our system, our legal system, to work. We have to, on some level, believe that we are working towards a common goal within the system. We may not want the same outcome, but we're working to make the system work for our clients.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:55] Yeah, definitely. One last question before I let you go. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Leslie Wallis: [00:39:06] Well that's kind of a big question as the last one, but I think what it means to me is to remember that I'm human. To remember when I am judged, to try to be less judgmental of others. To notice where I've become rigid or overinvolved, and to be able to be aware that that's what I'm doing. And then to come back to a place where I'm standing my own ground, and I feel content with myself standing there; that I'm not unhappy with what I have done or what I have said in the interaction. That's the resilience that I work for, so that I can come back and fight another day.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:16] Leslie, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate it.

Leslie Wallis: [00:40:20] It was a pleasure.

Closing: [00:40:26] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

Learn more and register here.

How would you like to improve your legal practice and increase your well being, in only 6 minutes per day? I can show you how to build a more sustainable, peaceful and productive law practice with just a tiny investment of your time.

I'm excited to introduce you to my new online course, "Mindful Pause: 6 Minutes to Better Lawyering." 

Who is Mindful Pause for?

It's for lawyers who want to find a better way to create a more sustainable, joyful and fulfilling law practice. Often, we as lawyers are not taught healthy behaviors or tools for managing the stress, anxiety and the daily pressures. Mindful Pause will create an accessible and enjoyable entry into practices that can reduce anxiety, improve focus and clarity, and enrich the quality of life.

[Learn More]

In this episode, I interviewed Mike Ethridge. Mike Ethridge, attorney from Charleston, SC, champion of wellness for lawyers returns for our discussion on creating your own happiness to delve into different methods of happiness achievement.

Topics covered:

• The benefits of learning or pursuing new talents and hobbies in the name of self-care.
• Understanding the concept of "Digital Fasting" and how it can be necessary to unplug to achieve focus.
• How to see the range of possibilities to changing your routine in a positive fashion

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

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Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Check out this episode!

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I interviewed Jack Pringle. Jack Pringle is a partner with Adams and Reese in Columbia, South Carolina, and focuses his practice on privacy, information security, and information governance; administrative and regulatory law; public utilities; land use litigation; and class action litigation. Jack and I discuss the important connection between a healthy mind, spirit, and body and how to achieve a balance in such a turbulent field of work.

Topics covered:

• How he started and maintained his yoga practice and helped him become better at his career.
• Understanding the importance of a nimble mind.
• Defining yoga and how to begin practicing.

You can learn more about Jack at http://www.adamsandreese.com/jack-pringle/

Find him on Twitter at https://twitter.com/jjpringlesc

And read some of the things he writes at https://pringlepracticeblog.blogspot.com/ or https://medium.com/@jjpringlesc

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Check out this episode!

Transcript

Jack: In order to be effective, whether it’s oppose and holding oppose or going a little bit farther, it can’t be accomplished by having every muscle in your body being tensed. You’ve got to figure out how to relax.

Intro: Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer Podcast, brought to you by Start Here HQ -- a consulting company that works with lawyers to create a purpose driven and sustainable legal career.

In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life.

Now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena: Hello my friends. Welcome back to another episode of The Resilient Lawyer Podcast. Today, I am so happy to have Jack Pringle back on the show.

For those listeners that’s been listening to this podcast for awhile, you’ll remember that I interviewed Jack Pringle while I was at the World Domination Summit in Portland, Oregon. Jack Pringle is a partner with Adams and Reese in Columbia, South Carolina and he focuses his practice on privacy, information security, and information governance.

But the thing that I really love about Jack is that he has this really interesting balance between his law practice and also, perhaps, what I would consider to be a more of a spiritual practice. He has a regular meditation practice and a yoga practice. In this episode we’ll chat about both and how those practices actually helps him to be a better lawyer.

But before we get to the episode, I want to share a couple of exciting upcoming event. The first is a retreat. I’ve been having this daydream about having a retreat, just for lawyers, where we can truly unplug, restore, and rejuvenate. So I put a link to a quick survey in the show note. If you’re interested in joining me for a weekend retreat, it will be sometime next year -- most likely in the April or May time period -- please complete the survey and I will be in touch with you.

The other program that I have coming up will start on October 9th and this will be a 6-week mindful pause program. This program is really designed to offer you bite-size actionable tips and tools and practices that you can do every single day. So the challenge is to spend 6 minutes really focusing on yourself and your well-being.

The intention behind the 6-week program is that we’re really going to look at our life a little bit more closely, with a little more introspection. And actually think about how to structure it so that we can find more ease and joy and actually have more satisfaction in our life.

Again, if you’re interested in the upcoming retreat or the 6-week mindful pause program, just look in the show notes.
With that, here’s Jack Pringle.

Jeena: Jack, welcome back to the show. I am so happy to have you back.

Jack: It is my pleasure to be back talking to you, Jeena.

Jeena: I think it was just about 2 years ago when we first met each other at the World Domination Summit.

Jack: That’s exactly right. As I’ve described that experience, and no disrespect to the conference and its organizers -- it’s interesting name, great experience because that name was off-putting to some when they heard it. I can’t believe it’s been 2 years.

Jeena: I know, yeah.

For the listeners, you can go back to episode #21. It was released on July 24, 2015. So it’s really fun to have you back on the show. Of course we’ve stayed in touch through all the various social media and we even got to do a presentation together for the Canadian Bar Association so that was really interesting.

Jack: That was and that was about a year ago. And then, of course, you were kind enough to come and speak to a overflow room at the South Carolina Bar Convention in Greenville earlier this year. That was tremendously well-received and I was proud to mention to everybody that I knew you before you got all famous.

Jeena: Maybe for those listeners who didn’t hear the first episode, you can just give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are and what you do.

Jack: Sure.

Well, I am a partner with the firm of Adams and Reese LLP and I’m located in Columbia, South Carolina. Our firm is located throughout the southeast, generally speaking, plus Washington DC. My practice day-to-day, in large part, is information technology and information governance which includes a fair bit of privacy and information security. I also do what can be best characterized as a lot of regulatory law.

And, as we’ll talk about, I’ve had the benefit of having a pretty consistent yoga and mindfulness practice for a number of years which, as we’ll also discuss, has been pretty helpful in my law practice day-to-day.

Jeena: Let’s just jump right in and talk about yoga. How did you start your journey to practicing yoga? How long have you been practicing it and why did you get started?

Jack: Well, oddly enough, after I graduated from college in 1990 -- which, I guess, is really beginning to date me -- I moved up to Washington DC to look for a job on Capitol Hill or in government affairs. A number of my friends were moving up there with me. As a lot of people were in that timeframe, I was pretty, pretty anxious and pretty much in my head worried about getting a job, not so happy to be out of college, and thrown in to the world.

I actually saw in the back of the -- what was then the Capitol Hill paper/newspaper called Roll Call, there was an ad asking if I was stressed or anxious or wanted to try something that might help deal with day-to-day stresses and anxieties. It was a insight mindfulness class that was taught in Northern Virginia by someone named Tara Brock who went on to, and has gone on, to have quite an active and notable practice.

It was, at that point, that I had the opportunity to begin the movement of yoga and service, at that time, of actually trying to do vipassana insight meditation to use some movement in order to help me and others in the class sit for long periods of time. And to practice the mindfulness and focus practices that now seem to have come into the culture a little bit more fully.

That was, and ever since then, and it sort of waxed and waned at times, law school, professionally and with children. But have developed a fairly regular practice that combines some amount of yoga along with sitting, trying to sit still for a certain amount of time every morning. Again, it hasn’t been… certainly hasn’t been consistent and unbroken since 1990 or 1991 but at least, as of right now, it’s become a pretty regular part of my routine.

Jeena: I think that’s such an interesting point that yoga isn’t or wasn’t started as sort of an aerobics or an exercise practice that really where yoga stems from is to actually ready the body so that we can sit and meditate.

Jack: Absolutely.

I come off sounding like a scold when I mention that from time to time because someone will tell me these things are all true and are all reasons to do yoga by themselves but they’ll say, “Wow, I’m so relaxed” or, “It makes me feel so flexible” or, “I feel three-quarters of an inch taller” or, “It really helped me deal with some anxiety.” I then respond and say, “Well, it really makes sense to do it as a prelude or as preparation for sitting still.”

Because I remember when I started sitting and as with Tara’s classes and things, there were actually sittings that took place for… sometimes even several hours at a time. I remember, in that timeframe being so painful to -- it’s still even for a few minutes -- and recognizing the benefits of some of those postures and practices and service of being able to sit still or still enough in order to start to try some of those mindfulness practices was really helpful and, without being too clichéd about it, eye-opening or enlightening in terms of…

Because, the truth is, sometimes if your body is too rigid and if you’re holding too much pain, it can be a very, very hard row to hoe to ask somebody “Well, just sit still.” That can be too difficult, in some instances, and so it’s another one of these wonderful paradoxes about doing some movement in order to be able to sit still. But it’s pretty profound.

Jeena: What does your day-to-day or, let’s say, an average week of yoga practice look like for you?

Jack: Well, sometimes it involves actually going to a studio, City Yoga, here in Columbia, Stacy Millner-Collins’ studio. But, I guess, ever since children came along and professional obligations become more and more prevalent, I’ve developed a daily practice on my own that involves waking up and having some coffee and then really doing a series of poses or series of movements not set amount of time. And then followed by, actually sitting using, say, headspace or sometimes just my own stopwatch to try to be still and then you use any number of those types of sitting techniques whether it’s counting the breath, or visualizing, or just letting the mind wonder.

Jeena: How does yoga help you to be a better lawyer? Does it help you be a better lawyer?

Jack: Well, I think it certainly does. Purely on the physical plain, I think it’s being shown over and over again that regular movement and, specifically in yoga, being able to sort of be a little bit of a student of your own body is extraordinarily helpful in managing the aches and pains and difficulties that tend to happen as one agent. Or, frankly, just as one as you exist.

Jeena: Yeah.

Jack: Learning to notice where you’re holding tension and, as you’re aware, there’s a fair amount of tension that can exist and build up in the law practice or in any profession where there are high steaks, ore there are raw emotions, or there are deadlines. In the first instance, learning to recognize that and a way to deal with it; to be able to, frankly, know where your core is and know how you’re moving. The way you can hold yourself and stand and sit, move in order to kind of minimize the stresses that inevitably come.

In terms of the mind and the thinking, you and I have talked about this before, the ability to see, or to get a little bit of a sense when you’re being set off, or when you’re becoming distressed, or when things aren’t going well and to use the breath as an anchor. Something you can just come back to notice that you’re getting a little bit upset or you’re getting distracted. Or someone or something is throwing you off your game is extraordinarily important and extraordinarily useful in terms of, “Well, what am I doing?” Come back to what’s important here. “What are my themes? What’s going on with me and how can I come back to the focus on where I am and what I’m supposed to be doing right now.”

That sense of whether you call it insight, or perspective, or context and seeing the way your own brain and mind work, I think is invaluable when you’re dealing with other people, dealing with decision-makers, dealing with the myriad tasks and challenges that you have in a given day. It’s hard to measure it but I would say that just that ability to be somewhat flexible and the way you think and the way you respond is very important in this business.

Jeena: Yeah. Do you think there’s a correlation between having the body be more flexible and the mind becoming more nimble?

Jack: Without question. That’s one of the ways that yoga is such a good metaphor. You can see this in athletics too. I used to play a fair amount of sports and still try to although it looks a little comical as I get grayer and older. But is recognizing that in whether -- and yoga is a good example of this. In order to be effective in whether it’s oppose and holding oppose or going a little bit farther, it can’t be accomplished by having every muscle and your body being tensed. You’ve got to figure out how to relax in order to really focus and extend.

Likewise, I think it’s taking it to the professional realm. I can’t remember if it was David Allan who said that if you want to be effective, truly effective, you have to relax and figuring out how to have a relaxed mind that is receptive and nimble.

The other way that I connected back to technology where I spent a lot of my days and this… I happen to see this. I read Kevin Kelly’s book which is called The Inevitable. It’s about the technologies that are going to change our world. He said that because of the pace of change that we’re all going to have to be and we are going to be perpetual newbies meaning always learning things for the first time. Always having to have the ability and that just… you make a direct line between that and the idea of beginner’s mind. Being able to see things without undo bias, or prejudice, or routine and to see things with a fresh outlook that you’ll need to solve problems when you’re seeing new things for which you don’t necessarily have a framework to evaluate them anyway.

So, I think, it really does help with that idea of a nimble mind that can be, certainly, somewhat fresh, somewhat rested, and somewhat capable of seeing things for the first time or in a way that’s not blundered or too encumbered by other things. Whether those things are the past, or the future, or the stresses of your life, or making America great again, or whatever might be…

Jeena: Sure.

Jack: …on your mind.

Jeena: Yeah, so true.

One of the things that I often hear in yoga classes, or even in a lot of meditation teachers, is that the body has a wisdom and that by practicing yoga we can tap into that wisdom that’s contained in the body. Talk a little bit about that.

Jack: Well, I think that’s absolutely true and it sort of helps me remember or recognize that the… just how connected the mind and the body are. As somebody, and lawyers aren’t the only… or the law isn’t the only profession that has this but you end up spending a lot of time in your head and thinking about a lot of things over and over again. Starting to tap into the body and recognize what the body does in certain situations and what you’re thinking can affect the way you act and the way you hold yourself and vice versa is extraordinarily important.

Your body will often tell you lots of things about the kind of day you’re having. I don’t know whether I’ve told you about this but -- and this is a pretty simple example but it’s telling to me, if I manage to notice, that if I’m on a phone call or if I’m even in a courtroom or in a deposition and I’m standing there with my fist balled up, there’s definitely some wisdom in that, at least in terms of where my body is going or where my mind is telling my body to go. We can have a conversation for days about that chick and egg process but learning to recognize.

Another area where the wisdom of the body or where either body propels mind or vice versa is -- and this is something I’ve been tremendously focused on is trying to become or improve the act of listening; this concept of active listening and actually leaning in.

I’ve spent a good part of my career and I’m a little bit sheepish to admit this but it’s not just my career but in my life I’ve spent a lot of time waiting for somebody to finish their sentence so I could start talking again and talk about how smart I think I am and recognizing that. The body’s a big part of that. Really learning to listen in a way that involves your body, not just turning your ear but leaning your body in. The body language that you bring to listening to somebody and really trying to understand them rather than as just a means to an end is
extraordinarily important.

And particularly important for lawyers, for clients, for people on the jury, for judges. If you’re not listening to questions, if this is just your ball game and you’re trying to get your oral argument out or say what you want to say, you’re going to miss a whole heck of a lot in not understanding your audience or the person who’s going to be deciding your case. Learning to cultivate those practices that give you a little bit more awareness of your surroundings and the context in which you’re presenting or interacting is extraordinarily important.

Jeena: Yeah. I think mindfulness really teaches us to be better listeners. I think lawyers, in particular, do this and we’re trained to do this is that we listen so we can respond or react but we’re not very good at listening just to simply understand or to sort of open ourselves to what the other person is saying. Like kind of absorbing what they’re saying. We’re very hardwired to kind of check out as the other person is speaking, at some point, so we can prepare our response and kind of becoming aware of that, right?

And I think the body is a great place to notice is because the other person is speaking and you can almost feel that tension building up in your body where it’s like “Oh, I want to speak. I have something to add. I want to contribute. I want to interrupt.” And then noticing that and going “Oh, isn’t that interesting?” Rather than just sort of almost automatically reacting to that impulse to interrupt or to interject or just sort of that natural, habitual pattern. How we communicate with each other all the time.

Jack: Sure, without question. Part of that is because I think about it in the appellate argument context. You’ve only got a certain amount of time that you’re before a panel of judges or justices. So part of you wants to make sure that you say as much as you can, that you get through your argument, that you don’t leave anything out.

The other part of that in wanting to respond quickly is that there’s some sense of “Wait a minute, this thought just came in my head and if I don’t respond immediately, I might forget it. This is urgent. This is urgent.” But the problem with that, as we’ve already discussed, if you’re not paying attention to the question that you’re getting and the nuance that might be involved in that and reading the cues of those around you, it really does become all about you.

I hate to break it to everybody but it’s not all about you or me. That’s one of the things, you know, you and I have talked about this before is when you see the way your mind works, you can’t help but be a little bit humble and recognize that you’re not the only game in town and that there’s things to be learned from those around you, especially by listening and taking in a scene or a context.

Jeena: Maybe we can back up a little bit and talk about kind of starting to practice yoga. When they talk about practicing yoga, particularly to people that aren’t familiar with the practice, they immediately think of sort of contorting your body into these impossible positions through doing handstands.

What advice would you offer to someone that’s brand new to yoga and doesn’t have any exposure to it?

Jack: Well, I think the first point, and that is to as what just about anything, is to take it easy and to start fairly slowly and to avoid biting off more than you’re ready to chew. It’s somewhat a can to the kinds of things that happen when you make grand pronouncements about beginning and exercise program or that you’re going to start running again and you remember that you ran regular 15 years ago and you go out and run 4 miles for the first time after you haven’t been running at all. You get too tired and you get too sore.

The good news is there are many different studios and places to practice yoga, offering yoga at all levels. There are also YouTube and all of the other video platforms are full of tutorials. There are different ways to figure out how to dip your toe in if you’re not ready to march down to the studio and stand in front of other people and sit in front of other people. I think it’s important to recognize that you’re always going to stay within yourself and start slowly and figure out how to do it in a way that is comfortable to you and to where you can learn somewhat gradually.

I think the other thing I like to tell people is that when somebody says he or she is good at yoga, that’s a dead giveaway because it’s… Again, there certainly are people who can do amazing poses and do things and showing off but that’s not what it’s about. It’s all about having the opportunity to watch what’s going on in your own body, to learn or to practice that breathing and to see how that works, and then proceed at your own pace.

Having said that, it did take me a long time to stop looking at everybody in the room to see, “Oh gosh, am I doing this as well as or more poorly than someone else?” But I think too easy does it and to find somebody from whom you can take a class, somebody that you trust, and maybe as with lots of these different practices and routines to maybe have a buddy that you go with that will hold you to that decision to go from time to time.

The other piece of advice and, again, without biting off more than you can chew, is to see if you can make something a daily practice. I’ve read or seen that 5 minutes a day, 7 days a week might be more beneficial than one hour on Saturday and not on any other days.

I’m a huge fan of routines and practices, especially in the early morning, and I think there’s something really to be said for doing some movement in the early morning to prepare you for your day; to get your body moving and your brain or mind still. If you can, even for a very short period of time do that, I think it will pay big dividends and enable you to incrementally do more if you want to. There’s always more that you can do if you want to get into serious backbends and acro yoga and bikram and all of these things now. Those are always there. But you need to have those core practices where you get to be a student of your body and to see what you’re capable of.

Jeena: Yeah. I think it’s so important to find a teacher that you resonate with. Also just… maybe finding a teacher whose philosophy sort of aligns with yours.

I love going to yoga classes where the teacher really focuses on Savasana. So it’s not just like 30 seconds of Savasana but we actually have maybe 5 to 10 minutes of like cooling down and just kind of paying attention to the mind. I’m also like just immediately turned off by any teachers that kind of pushes you to get into a form that the body is just not ready for because I think that’s also a way that you can easily injure yourself. Also, it doesn’t make the practice all that fun. Like I had one teacher say “Well, if it’s not hurting, you’re not doing it right.” I was like, “No, this is not for me.

Jack: Right. That makes perfect sense. Again, there are ways -- and it all depends on your preference. There are ways to ease somebody and to pushing out beyond their edge a little bit that isn’t necessarily, you know, no pain, no gain, or if you can walk you can pose. I’m not sure that Vince Lombardi was a yogi and I’m not sure mixing those two things but I agree with you.

Likewise, you have to decide, for whatever reason, in the West not everybody is necessarily comfortable with chanting Sanskrit or those kinds of things although… I mean from my perspective, I don’t see any problem with that at all but you can find your level of that plus the extent to which a teacher is doing some talking or some inspiration throughout the class. That’s, like I said, that’s the good news. There are so many different disciplines and ways of approaching this that you can find your level. But you most certainly should not take your wanna-be-a-hero sort of approach that you might have had in sports into that. Because just like any other physical exercise, there can be injuries if you’re not paying attention and you’re not being guided properly.

Jeena: Yeah.

I want to go back a little bit and talk about the judging mind. So you were just talking about being in the studio and seeing everyone else in the room and comparing your posture, comparing your practice to others. What are some ways of sort of working with a judging mind?

Jack: Well, there’s any number of them. I mean one, of course, is just having the capability to notice when you’re doing it. To see that it’s happening. It certainly doesn’t just happen in a yoga class. For me it happens on the basketball court, it happens in court. Let’s be honest, there’s nobody who’s better looking than I am. But if there were, I might look at somebody in kind of a jealous way.

I think the first is to recognize that it’s happening and to see if you’re rationalizing it in some way. That’s why, going back to the kind of humility that comes with these practices, is that overtime you see that, yes, everybody has silly thoughts and things that would not be so flattering, for example, if they were being shown on a video screen as you were having them. But recognizing it and seeing that, well, everybody has thoughts like that from time to time. Whether you decide at that point, if you’re on the yoga mat to, well, go back to your breath, focus on what you’re doing or just recognize that it’s something that happens from time to time.

And then if you can understand why you might be doing it or that’s what’s so fascinating is to see, well, why is this person setting me off? Or why does this person appear to be pressing my buttons? What is it about that behavior or this context? It doesn’t mean that you don’t respond or it doesn’t have some effect but recognizing it a couple of times when it happens can lead to, I think, a fairly substantial amount of insight into why it happens and what you do to try to just keep moving and recognize that if you just let a little time past that thought, by and large, is going to go its way and then you’ll be thinking about 1975, or 2022, or this brief you have to finish or how you’re going to meet your goal or what you’re going to have for dinner at night.

It’s just one of many thoughts that presumably will come and go and that’s part of this practice is recognizing that that does happen and trying to avoid where you can getting stuck on certain thoughts or ideas or emotions.

Jeena: Yeah. I was a very dedicated bikram yoga student for probably about a year.

Bikram for those folks that aren’t familiar with it, are 26th postures done at a really hot room. I think it’s like 110 degrees with something like 56% humidity. But the interesting thing about doing the 26th posture over and over and over again is that you can really see where you’re at and see the improvement, the incremental improvement overtime.

But what I found to be so fascinating is that there were days where I can just nail the posture. Where I can actually get my head to the ground while I’m sort of standing there with my legs spread apart. And then the next day, I couldn’t nail that posture again. At some point, I realize, “Oh, my body is different every single day.” That was so eye-opening for me and, I think, that’s one of the things that yoga teaches us is to sort of accept ourselves as we are. That’s not an easy practice to do by any measure.

I think that’s such a beautiful practice because it helps us to just see where our body is, where our mind is. I mean there’ll be days where I get on the yoga mat and my mind is going 150 miles per hour -- I have the monkey mind -- and I spend the entire hour thinking about my to-do list, right?

Jack: Oh yeah.

Jeena: There are other days where I get on the mat and it’s just like this blissful experience.
Not to judge those experience, not to say “Oh that one was so great and this one is so terrible” but just kind of using it as like data gathering.

Jack: Right. That’s being in somewhat of the same set of postures or the same situation on a fairly regular basis does give you the insight. What’s a little bit different today? Where am I feeling this a little bit differently? Or why am I having these thoughts over and over again that I can’t necessarily resolve?

You and I have talked about this and we probably talked about it last time but I think it was Kelly McGonigal and the Willpower Instinct who said that that’s one of the main benefits of meditation, oddly enough, paradoxically is that it shows you where your distractions are. It sort of helps you key in on those things, to some extent, that you can’t necessarily resolve or that are cycling over and over and over again in your brain. And maybe you can get a little bit of an objective since of, well, what’s going on here and why is this bothering me so much? Or why is this taking so much of my attention.

Jeena: Jack, you’re telling me that you are now teaching yoga which, I think, is really exciting. Tell me about teaching yoga. What has that experience been like?

Jack: Well, let me frame it a little bit. I’m not doing any formal teaching. I don’t have any teacher certifications other than the numbers of years that I’ve practiced. But I did have the opportunity recently to get ask to lead a class over at the University of South Carolina Law School. We have a brand new law school that has a big courtyard which is a perfect place to practice yoga, with the possible exception of how hot it is here in the summer. I agree to get in the sun which maybe experience a little bit bikramesque for me.

Jeena: Yeah.

Jack: It was a tremendous experience in part because -- and I notice this when… now that I’ve had the opportunity to do some speaking and to teach on certain subjects and other context whether it’s information security or any of the other number topics is the act of teaching is very, very difficult. This is, I guess, is fairly obvious but the act of standing in front of people and actually leading the class as oppose to just going long for the ride as a participant is very challenging but as is often the case, the flip side of that is extraordinarily rewarding because of the opportunity to see, well, how well do I know this and how well can I convey these concepts or these ideas in an hour-long class?

So I came away from it having been really challenged and also feeling some sense of satisfaction as well as that humility of, “Well, I talk a big game but maybe I don’t know this quite as well as I thought I did. Maybe back to the mat, back to the drawing board.” But extraordinary and what I think was a pretty meaningful experience, I hope the folks that were there learned a little something or at least had a decent time. But it’s something that I’m happy to have the opportunity to do and we look forward to doing that in the future.

What was interesting about it, and I told several of the participants this in preparation and the run up to it, I was having the same sort of stress that you’d have before an oral argument like “Oh goodness, I need to make sure I don’t leave this out. Am I going to be able to get it all in there? I don’t want to be wrong. I don’t want to look silly. Let’s add this or let’s add this.”

Just as with PowerPoint presentations or other oral argument outlines, I realize that I packed way too much information in there that I needed to just take the foot off the gas and recognize that, at some point, you just have to have a little faith in the process.

It was not going to be about spouting off every pithy line I’d ever read about yoga or something like that. But it’s interesting to see that pattern manifesting itself again when you get nervous and when you feel like you’re going to be assessed or judged. It does lead you to the “Well, I want to look good. I want to make sure that I impress” when that’s not really the aim at all.

Jeena: Yeah. So you had an opportunity to practice mindfulness.

Jack: Absolutely and to recognize, “Look, I’m doing it again.”

Jeena: Yeah.

Jack: I’m going overboard with this when I really just need to take a step back and call on the mind and body’s wisdom to just lead. Because, honestly, if I didn’t have that stuff well before the class, it was not like learning it in the last 10 minutes before I talk in the class was going to make the light go on for me or anybody else. It was really eye-opening.

I like having experiences like that that either push me or force me sometimes into situations that are uncomfortable and that are new and give me a chance to take that challenge on. I think that’s going to continue to be important for all of us as the world keeps changing and to find ways to get out of our comfort zone and do things that help us grow and learn.

Jeena: Yeah. I think that’s the perfect place to wrap things up.

Jack, thank you so much for joining me. It was so much fun to chat with you and I hope to have you back on the show soon.

Jack: Well, anytime and I really appreciate the opportunity and look forward to seeing you soon.

Closing

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’d like to build a more profitable and purpose driven law practice, learn more about us at startherehq.com.

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As always, we’d love to hear from you and you can drop us an email anytime at hi@startherehq.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Diane Costigan on to talk about different ways to experience wellness and mindfulness, from meditation to EFT tapping.

As a seasoned executive and career coach, Diane works with all levels of attorneys to drive performance and career-related goals. She currently serves as Winston & Strawn's Director of Coaching, where she coaches lawyers on topics such as business development, peak performance, and leadership and career strategy. Diane is a prolific speaker and writer and has been quoted in Forbes, Law360, and Law Practice Magazine. Diane earned her M.A. in Organizational Psychology from Columbia University, and B.A., cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, from the College of the Holy Cross. She has a certificate in Organizational and Executive Coaching from NYU and is an Associate Certified Coach (ACC) with the International Coaching Federation. She is also an Integrative Nutrition Health Coach (INHC) through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, and a certified Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT/Meridian Tapping) practitioner. Diane is a second-degree black belt in karate and a long time meditator.

Topics Covered

• Diane reflects on how she got into her current career path, and how she feels her spending 10 years consulting at a firm really helped set her up for where she is now. She also talks on how coaching can be such a general term, and defines what she does now.
• How she first started meditating, the benefits she sees from a regular meditation schedule, and progressive relaxation. She also talks about how her definition of meditation to less organized and formal practices helps her keep a consistency in her meditation exercise, and tips to how she "cheats" it and stays on top of it.
• She defines the psychological modality of Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), how this technique is used to cope with emotional and physical pain, as well as your own critical voice.

Resources mentioned:

thetappingsolution.com
EFTUniverse.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

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Transcript

Diane Costigan: [00:00:04] You know, feel feelings so that you can free them.

Intro: [00:00:12] Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:33] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I have Diane Costigan. As a seasoned executive and career coach, Diane works with all levels of attorneys to drive performance and career-related goals. She currently serves as Winston & Strawn's Director of Coaching, where she coaches lawyers on topics such as business development, peak performance, leadership, and career strategy.

[00:01:00] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't heard the last episode on The Resilient Lawyer podcast, go back and check it out. I shared just a six-minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers tell me that they know they should meditate, but they just can't seem to find the time. So I wanted to create a course that would make it really easy for the busy lawyers to fit it into their very busy schedule, it's just six minutes a day. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you; think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Diane. Diane, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. I'm so happy to have you.

Diane Costigan: [00:02:03] Thanks Jeena, it's such an honor to be part of this podcast so thank you for inviting me. I'm really grateful.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:09] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do.

Diane Costigan: [00:02:16] Sure. I'm an integrative coach and I help lawyers successfully reach their goals by tapping into and/or increasing their personal power and resourcefulness. I like to think of myself as a resource for them to leverage along their path to success, and also happiness because I don't think they're mutually exclusive, even in the law.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I'm often surprised by lawyers that will look at me sideways when I mention that word, happiness. "We're lawyers; we're not supposed to be happy." You know, it seems like no one really goes through life thinking, "I'm going to be as miserable as possible." That's such an innately human thing to desire, happiness and peace and love. And all those words that I think some lawyers have an almost allergic reaction to. So you know I feel like you have one of those jobs that is very coveted and everyone would love to have, so how did you end up in-house as a coach?

Diane Costigan: [00:03:28] It is funny you say that, because I almost feel like my career path is that I spent 10 years at a law firm doing more professional development type stuff, then I was out as a consultant for 10 years doing coaching, training, and consulting. And now I'm back on the law firm side, and I have said several times that the job I have now is actually the job in hindsight that I really wanted the first time around when I was in a law firm. So it just kind of took me a little bit of time to realize that. But how I got it, I do think that my 10 years of consulting really helped to tee me up nicely for the job. Like I said, I had 10 years of seeing how a law firm works and doing true professional development. And then I had the benefit as a consultant of seeing how different firms approach professional development. And then I was also, during that time (and this was one of the reasons I really left my first law firm job, because I was able to work so personally and one-on-one with so many different lawyers, probably like hundreds of lawyers in the last 10 years) I was really able to see things they all had in common, things that show up differently, and I was able to create programs and training, and just really customize the coaching that I was doing as a consultant. But it kind of got to the place, I loved consulting and I loved the firm, I worked for Volta Talent Strategies, which is an amazing company. But I really got to the point about a year ago where I wanted to just grow some roots, and rejoin a law firm so that I could almost go deeper in a sense, and really learn only one way of doing things or system of doing things.

[00:05:23] You know I do a lot of business development coaching for example, and you know when you're an external coach who does business development, you have to understand the compensation and credit system of every firm you're working with. And while there are a lot of similarities, there can be differences. And so it's just nice to be at one place and learn one system, one culture and one way politics shows up. So you know, I think that's sort of how I decided that I wanted to come back to the firm. And then you know, being that I do career coaching I literally put myself through the process I would have suggested to a client as well. I got really clear on what I liked and what I didn't like about my job, I went back and reviewed all the jobs I had had and did the pro-con for all of them.

And I think probably the biggest thing I did was informational interviews, you know I talked to people. I think my role is a little different in that I'm working with partners and associates, and I'm doing mostly performance coaching actually, and some career coaching. So I talked to everyone I knew who did something similar or had bits of that job at law firms, and that's sort of how I got the information I needed. But I think how I ended up here specifically at Winston & Strawn, is I followed my longtime mentor Sue Manch. And I really do credit our mentor relationship, but also just staying in touch and networking and you know, really looking to her for any career move I made. And it just, I think all of the stars kind of aligned between all of those things. And so once Sue decided to join Winston and they had already had this position kind of in mind, you know all the stars kind of aligned.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:25] Wow. Are you the only full-time coach at the firm, or are there other full-time coaches as well?

Diane Costigan: [00:07:31] I'm the only full-time coach, but we do have at least one other person. My colleague Julia Mercier, who is our Director of Planning and Development. She is also a certified coach. And so you know, she's working with me on some coaching things, I'm working with her on some training things; so that's been a really nice synergy. And I do intend at some point, probably calendar year 2019, to train up some of our other internal staff, particularly on the HR side and the Recruiting and Attorney Development side, and then some other people on the Learning and Development team. So we're going to train them at least to have coaching skills; we're really trying to build a total culture of coaching, and that's one way (in addition to my role) that we're going to try to deploy resources to that end.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:32] That's great. You know I need to zoom out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about what coaches do? Because I often find that lawyers don't fully understand what a coach does.

Diane Costigan: [00:08:45] Yeah, no that's a great question. You know, coaching at its root is focused on helping you achieve goals that you set that are meaningful to you. And, it's a process. I like to say it's a process of both transformation and empowerment. So transformation meaning, you know something because you're going to have a goal, something will always be different by the end of your time in coaching. And that might be that you've developed a skill further that you wanted to develop, that you have changed or enhanced a way that you're approaching something. It could be accomplishment-based, making partner in a law firm for example, or bringing in a certain amount of business. It could also be changing your mindset around something, or changing beliefs that you have, limiting beliefs that might be getting in the way. Or it could be changing behaviors that you're engaging in that are getting in the way. So it's a process of transformation, and then it's also a process of empowerment in that (in theory) you know, coaches don't tell you what to do; they don't give you the answers. It's not advising or mentoring or counseling. It's really working with you to pull the information from you, as coachee, to reach your goals. So that's in general what coaching is and what coaching can do for lawyers. And I'm probably implementing it in different ways internally, but that's really the route. There's always something that we're working on.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:25] Yeah I've worked with various coaches over the course of my career, and I always found that I love working with a coach because they don't have their own agenda; they're fully focused on you and what your goals are. And there's not that many people in your life that play that role; where they're going to really listen to you, ask you really great questions. And I think when I first started working with a coach I was sort-of like, "Okay here's my problem, go solve it."

Diane Costigan: [00:10:54] Exactly, yep.

Diane Costigan: [00:10:55] That's not what happens at all, it's like okay, let me ask you some questions about your specific questions or your issue. Sometimes they ask one right question and you see the problem in a completely different way and I think that's where the magic in coaching happens.

Diane Costigan: [00:11:14] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for a mentor the compliment you can give is, wow that was really good advice. And I think for a coach the best compliment you can get is, wow that was a really great question. But I agree, I would be staffed up with coaches all the time if I could. I do work with my own coach. But I mean, I've used coaches for a ton of different things. And you're right, it is kind of a luxury to have someone who's just intently focused on you.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:44] Yeah, totally. So I know that you and I also have, well we lots of different things in common. But I know you meditate. So, will you share a little bit about your journey, how did you start meditating?

Diane Costigan: [00:12:00] I've definitely had a long journey with meditation, I probably started later in my teenage years, it kind of started where I would drift in and out and it wasn't a full-time thing, but I would say in the last ten to 15 years it's been more of a constant in my life. And I think I got into it as a teenager, someone introduced me to a progressive relaxation. Have you ever done progressive relaxation, where you tense your muscles and then release them with breath? It's a great stress reliever. So someone introduced me to that, and so that's kind of like my early day's entry into it. And then I went to a Jesuit college, and I did this five-day silent retreat. I think it was five days, anyway, it was such a powerful transformational experience. I mean, really when in your life do you ever. I mean for an extrovert like me it was incredibly intimidating and frustrating, but so, so powerful. Because really, when do you get that kind of time just yourself and your thoughts? So you know, that definitely got me more into it. And then I guess I got into it also as I started getting deeper, I started to really see there are spiritual benefits to it. Anyone who's sort of a seeker or really always working on personal development, I think there are lots of benefits so you know, that was probably the next kind of wave for me. And I did this online course through the Meditation Society of Australia, which was so amazing and lovely and I just love to hear their Australian accent, that really helped.

[00:13:48] So that got me even deeper, and then I think shortly before I left my first law firm job, I really got into (and it's still a big part of my own practice as a coach) just focusing on stress management. Then I got more into seeing the benefits of meditation from that angle and the neuroscience, so that pulled me in a little bit deeper. But I guess I would say over the last 10 or 15 years, I've had a very regular practice where I probably meditate every weekday. I mean I shouldn't say every, you know sometimes when I'm traveling or I don't sleep well it doesn't happen. But I try to meditate every morning before work for about half an hour. And then on the weekends, I try to do something else that's meditation but not so organized or formal, maybe some focused reading or quiet time or just doing something I'm really interested in. But I think if somebody put me on a panel and asked me, if you could only pick one tool for success in life and career what would it be? Hands down, no question I would say meditation.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:14] Yeah, I feel the same way. It's like one of the most important things I do in my life. And I can tell the difference on the days when I don't meditate, it's funny because sometimes if I go for like a week without meditating, my husband can notice and he'll be like, "Are you meditating?" So it makes a difference, yeah

[00:15:43] So I think one of the things that are such a challenge, especially for lawyers who are so busy, is actually getting your butt in the chair or on the cushion and actually doing it. Do you have tricks or habits or other things you do to make it easier to habitualize that practice?

Diane Costigan: [00:16:07] Yeah, I have a few. I think one is, I like to say I cheat it. And what I mean by that is I think you need to find a way to meditate that works for you. And sometimes (and this is true for me) it's not sitting formally. I do have a sisyama bench and very rarely I will get it out and sit, fully erect and straight up, with my hands and some Mudra position and I meditate. But for me, what I have found works is I meditate laying down. And sometimes I don't even get out of bed, truthfully. But most days I get out of bed, I basically commute from my bed to our couch. I get a heating pad, this will change in the summer but certainly, for the winter months I get a heating pad and I put it under my back. I wrap myself in a cozy blanket and then I put one of those sleeping masks over my eyes. I put headphones in and for now I mostly do guided meditations. Occasionally I'll lead myself in meditation, but I think because I have a job that's so people-facing to me it's such a luxury to have someone else tell me what to do, or guide me through something.

[00:17:37] And for me, it just feels so good and it's such a critical part of my self-care. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's like I'm creating this safe womb experience for myself. And it's just such a powerful way to start my day, I only do it for half an hour, and I look forward to it. So I think if you can do it in a way that works for you, that you look forward to, that's great. But I guess what I tell lawyers who are interested in meditating is, and I know you'll relate to this. I think there are several challenges, but one is I think they set bars (no pun intended) so high for themselves that you know, if they can't be on an ashram in a week-long meditation retreat, they don't want to do it. Or you know, they feel like they're not doing it right. So I always say, set realistic expectations when you're beginning a practice. So even if you're meditating for one minute, you don't want to go from meditating zero minutes a day, zero days a week to trying to do it for an hour, five days a week. And there are lots of good apps out there, I mean that's what I love about your six-minute meditation. I just think that's genius. And I have something similar where I say, 'everyone has 10 minutes.' Like everyone has ten minutes, especially you have to have ten minutes if it's something good for you. Ten minutes or something good for you is better than no minutes of nothing good for you.

[00:19:17] And I guess my other recommendation I usually make to busy lawyers is to go for guided meditation. I mean, I think going for an eight-week MBSR course really works for some people and they come to a place in their life where that's what they need. And that's great, but it can be too much for other people. So just going to something where you're popping headphones in and listening to a guided meditation is a great way to whet the appetite. And then you build from there, instead of trying to do something that's not realistic and then not feeling good about not keeping up with it, and then running a bad or negative script in your head about it.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:05] Right, totally. Yeah. And that desire to do things perfectly, you know I think when you start to meditate that shows up so strongly. And that's sort of the funny thing about meditation, you start to notice I do have this perfectionist tendency. and so be it myself enticed allow myself to do this as I am you know. And I think that's such a critical reason for doing this practice, like whatever your idea of a perfect meditation practice is, letting go and just showing up as you are.

Diane Costigan: [00:20:48] Yeah, I think also another myth that I think many people have but I know lawyers specifically have, is this worry or myth that they have to quiet their minds to be able to medicate. They say, I just have so many thoughts I can't stop them, and so I'll say awesome, you're going to be an amazing meditator. Because that's what you do in meditation. We're not trying to stop the train of thought, we're just trying to sit with it, label it, be with it, inquire about it, process it, and then let it go. So I think there are a lot of misconceptions, and that's a big one.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:31] Yeah, and I think what you said about starting small, to me that's the key. You know, if you don't have half an hour do fifteen minutes, if you don't have fifteen minutes do five, but do it as close to daily as you possibly can. And then also if you don't do the practice for a while.. and that's the other place where I notice a lot of lawyers will get tripped up. Because they'll do the practice for a while, let's say ten days. And they're feeling great, they're starting to notice that they're feeling a little bit less stressed and they have a little spaciousness. And then something comes up and then they don't meditate for five days, and then it's like well I didn't meditate for the last five days, so therefore I failed at this, and I might as well just not do it at all. And it's like no, you can just pick up right there. Just start on that day; let go of all the negative self-talk and the self-judgment and just begin again. And again, I feel like that's another thing that meditation teaches, is that you can just pick things up and continue your practice. And letting go of all the inner narrations of not doing it perfectly and not doing enough, and on and on and on.

Diane Costigan: [00:22:43] No, absolutely. I think that's a lot of what happens in coaching too. If somebody is on the business development side and they're working on moving their conversations more to the professional side from the personal side if they're trying to convert a personal friendship to get business. And we might be working on different strategies for them to do that, and they may be implementing them but then there's one day where they didn't, for whatever reason. And they'll come back in the next time, and to your point its like, "It's an epic fail." They kind of catastrophize about it. And I'll just say, "Well let's just do an automatic do-over." Right? The point is you're aware now; you might not have been aware, or maybe you were aware and you made a choice not to do it, it doesn't even matter. In this current moment of awareness, what are your choices? So what might you have done differently, what's your plan moving forward? But let's just leverage the awareness wherever it's happening.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:52] Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit from meditation to Emotional Freedom Technique, and I'm actually not that familiar with that is. So can you start by explaining what it is?

Diane Costigan: [00:24:05] Sure. Emotional Freedom Technique or tapping or EFT is basically a modality, it's an energy, psychology, modality where you simultaneously use your fingers to tap on different Meridian points from the acupuncture/acupressure system, while you're talking about or experiencing something that's uncomfortable or painful. Whether its physical pain, emotional pain, or even the pain of being in that critical voice that you mentioned before. And what it does is while you are stimulating the acupressure points, it actually switches on the relaxation response. So it basically pulls your body, your nervous system out of the fight or freeze response, so that you can then experience whatever's going on while you're being calm about it.

[00:25:10] I've probably been tapping for about 15 years, and similar to meditation I got into it originally for public speaking. Because I had a huge (and I know that's something else you and I share) really deep fear of public speaking. And so I used EFT to work on my anxiety around that, and then I would kind of come back to it over the years. But I would say probably six years ago it ended up back on my radar screen, and it's something I do every day. I really believe in it so much that I got certified in it, and it just has so many benefits. I mean first and foremost, it's a stress-reduction tool. Who doesn't need one of those in their toolbox, right? So it physiologically reduces stress, but I think it also is so powerful to help you process that critical voice; those unhelpful thoughts and emotions that we have that then inform maladaptive behaviors that get in the way of our success. So that's the upside, the downside of tapping is it sounds a little weird and it looks a little weird.

[00:26:34] I've been saying EFT is in new meditation, because 10 or 15 years ago when I was trying to introduce meditation to law firms, people would look at me like I was crazy. And then it kind of shifted to this interest but resistance to it, where they'd say okay let's talk about meditation or mindfulness but can we not call it that, can we call it something else? And now it's so mainstream, everyone wants to talk about it. Before I left my firm, we were getting so many requests for proposals on meditation stuff, and I refer people all the time who are interested. So I think EFT is the new meditation, I have tapped with a number of lawyers at this point. I did a stress management workshop here at Winston for our first and second years, and I had them meditating and tapping. So I do think that's my next big passion is to try to bring that in more of a powerful way to the legal community, because I just think it's so helpful. And even when I'm not necessarily having someone tap, I'm kind of using the armature or the structure of EFT, which is really feel feelings so that you can free them.

[00:28:07] And I know this is true for me but I know for many of the lawyers I work with, sometimes when they get into trouble from a stress management perspective or if they're just blocked from their goals or their success, it's often because they're not allowing themselves to feel the emotions that are coming up for them. I think sometimes we either stuff down our emotions and just ignore them or deny them. And unfortunately, they'll come out somewhere at some point, and probably not in a helpful way. Or we just hunker down, as my coach likes to say, "We unpack our bags and stay there." And emotion is energy in motion, and if you're stuffing it down or if you're staying in it, it's not doing its job of moving through you. And so EFT (and other modalities, it's not the only one) is a really effective tool for giving you some peace and calm to feel those feelings and to process them. So even if I'm not tapping with someone, I may be asking them what's the predominant feeling they have about that. And then we'll go through, which you can do in meditation as well right. Once you create that space and once you can detach from the emotion, you can explore it. Is it appropriate, does it make sense that you're feeling anger right now?

[00:29:45] And sometimes the answer is yes so then you go to the next question, and sometimes the answer is no and that's all it takes. But if the answer is yes and okay, sounds like based on what you're telling me anger is an appropriate emotion, we might explore why the person's angry, what the system around that anger is. Or we might say okay, well sounds like it's valid that you're feeling anger. Is that a helpful emotion for you to be feeling, based on what you're working on? And sometimes it is, anger can be a very helpful emotion if it inspires you to action around something, whether it's standing up for yourself or setting a boundary. But again, you don't want to stay in that anger; you want to use it for what it can do for you and then move past it.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:36] Right, it's just like fuel and you can kind of propel yourself forward and move through it. You know, I didn't realize the tapping technique was called Emotional Freedom Technique, because I've done it before with my therapist. So I was like oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. So for folks who might want to try it, where do they go to learn how to do this? Is this something they have to go see a therapist for, where would you learn this?

Diane Costigan: [00:31:06] That's such a great question, and to me that's one of the best parts about EFT and similar to meditation; you don't have to go to a tapping practitioner to do it, you can do it on yourself and so it's very effective and versatile. I would suggest, I'm a big fan of The Tapping Solution, and their website is thetappingsolution.com. And they have a number of books, they have just a general The Tapping Solution Approach to Stress and Anxiety, they've got a book about how to use tapping for weight loss and body confidence, they have one for chronic pain. So they have lots of different resources. And then another good resource is eftuniverse.com. And that's where I did my training and my certification. But I think one of the best parts is you can work with someone, but you can also do it for yourself. And I would also go onto YouTube. There are lots of wonderful YouTube videos. The EFT practitioner that I work with who is amazing, her name is Julie Schiffman and she has a number of videos that I will often send lawyers links to. Like I will introduce the concept of tapping if I think it will be helpful, and then if they seem skeptical I'll send them a video and then we might do it the next time. And then Brad Yates is another EFT practitioner who has a lot of really wonderful videos. It's so wonderful to hear that your therapist uses tapping, I think it's such a great complement to a therapeutic practice, but I would say if you're tapping on things that are rooted in trauma I would definitely recommend that you work with a certified practitioner.

Jeena Cho: [00:33:11] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, we covered a lot of ground today. So one final question before I let you go: what makes a resilient lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Diane Costigan: [00:33:28] To me, it's about taking ownership of their well-being. When I think of resilience, I think about the ability to bounce back from things that are stressful. And I think to be able to do that, you have to be on top of your stress management game, and paying attention to your well-being. So I think as part of that, it's the willingness to be aware: aware of what might not be working (with respect to your well-being,), and a willingness to work on that. To look at the things that aren't working, and put yourself through a process of working on that. And I think resilient lawyers really understand that it is both a practice and a process. It's not like you all of a sudden in the mail get this diploma that says you're fully resilient, right? I mean, it's something that we constantly have to work at. So it's a process and you're always learning, but the process is fueled by the practice. It's about showing up every day and engaging in self-care, whether that's meditation, nutrition, exercise, getting time out in nature, spending time with the people who are really important to you in life, or hopefully a combination of all of those things. That's part of the everyday practice that will help you to be more and more resilient. And I think resilient lawyers get that.

[00:35:10] But I think it also (this may be a way longer answer than you were looking for) involves courage. Even if it starts with a tiny nugget of courage, but its courage to stand up for yourself. It's courage to set boundaries where you need to set boundaries, it's courage to say no to the things you need to say no to, the courage to say yes to the things that will stretch you and help you build that practice of resilience. But I think, I'm probably going to end up alliterating here because I just love alliteration, but I think it also involves a level of compassion, particularly compassion for themselves. To your point, if you don't meditate for five days, there's no reason to self-flagellate about it. Self-compassion is much more of a resiliency skill there, to say hey it happens, and here I am going to pick it up again. And I think they also are good communicators, they're willing to communicate about their feelings, what they need, when somebody has pushed a boundary, and maybe even apologizing when they've pushed a boundary. So I think those are some of the ingredients that go into being a resilient layer.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:30] Thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom with us today, I really appreciate.

Diane Costigan: [00:36:36] Thank you so much, thank you for having me. I'm really grateful.

Closing: [00:36:42] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

Hello! A short request for listener feedback. Doing a podcast can feel very lonely, like speaking into the void. Yet, there were almost 7,000 of you that listened last month! (Wow!)

Please drop me an email and let me know what conversations you're wanting to hear. What "necessary conversations" aren't being had?

Email: hello@jeenacho.com or use the form in this link: http://jeenacho.com/podcast/

Check out this episode!

In this bonus episode, I share how to use the body scan meditation to soothe the worried and anxious mind.

Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th.

I’ll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week.

Register here: https://jeenacho.com/workshop

In this episode, I am excited to have Chelsey Lambert on the show to speak on different technology and products for lawyers and her website, lextechreview.com. Chelsey Lambert is a Legal Technology Specialist, published Author and CLE Speaker. As a former Practice Management Advisor for the Chicago Bar Association, and executive for legal technology companies she has seen our industry from many angles. She recently founded the legal technology blog LexTechReview.com, where she reviews products lawyers can use to run their business, and teaches tech training classes.

Topics Covered

• Chelsey opens with talking about her thoughts on being one of the few women in the male dominated field of Law Technology and how her time invested in the field has paid off.
• Why so many firms are afraid of adopting new and pioneering technology out of fear of change, and the benefits of taking the leap into new technology to keep your firm running as efficiently as possible.
• The importance of needs assessments, and investing the time and money into learning how to utilize the programs and have it ready for you.
• The differences between legal specific tech and tools to non-legal specific and the importance of the distinction depending on where your firm is and it’s specific needs.
  
  
  For more information on Chelsey, find her at the following sites:

Twitter:@chelseylambert
           @lextechreview

Website: www.lextechreview.com

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Transcript

Thanks for joining us on the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for the Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Tiffany Southerland on to talk about owning your past to better understand yourself and your future.

Tiffany is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is the founder of Four Corners Coaching, where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strengths so they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany transitioned to higher education and eventually back to a law firm in a recruiting role. She also hosts her own podcast and a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion.

Topics Covered

• Owning your story by accepting the good and the bad to develop an increased sense of self-awareness, and having a better platform to launch yourself into where you want to be.
• How she believes confidence is the best tool you can have in your professional toolbox to both make yourself feel more comfortable in stressful situations and help others feel comfortable around you.
• How her faith and spirituality has shaped her work and her podcast.
• Making career transitions, and knowing your value and values.

Sources Mentioned:

• Use http://bit.ly/10tiff to contact Tiffany and schedule a time to talk with her.
• Text "TiffSouth" to 444999 to get her free workbook "The Leverage List"

Learn more and connect with Tiffany at:
Linked In
Instagram
Four Corners Coaching

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Transcript

Tiffany Southerland: [00:00:03] In my own career journey, I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up, and how I got there and why. I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today In this episode I have Tiffany Southerland. She Is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is a founder of Four Corners Coaching, where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strength so that they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany's transition to higher education and eventually back to a law firm and a recruiting role she also hosts her own podcast. How does she do it in a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion.

[00:01:14] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode. Go back and check it out. A shared a six minute guided meditation practice the like though of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause and I know you've been hearing me talk about meditation and mindfulness and why it's so important. But really it is the best tool I found to manage stress and anxiety and also increase focus and productivity and so often lawyers ask me Well how much time do I need to dedicate this. And I said you know what just start with six minutes with two minutes if that's all you can fit into your schedule or six minutes of all the hours you dedicate to your clients and others don't you deserve to have at least one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for boys like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily by The to boost your well-being. Head on over to Jeena Cho dot com to learn more. Check it out in the show notes. And with that here's Stephanie Tiffany welcome to the show.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:13] Thank you so much for having me Jane I'm very happy to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] So let's just jump right in and have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:22] I like to say that I am a lawyer by training and a change agent at heart and I am a girl from Hempstead Long Island who really loves to help people be their best selves. I am the oldest of four children so that comes with this sort of protective desire to help you know kind of nurture and help people be their best and I love haribo gummy bears which is something that I like to mention to people it is the best brand of gummy bears ever. And I'm just really really excited and grateful to have this conversation with you today.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:57] Wonderful it was. I didn't know that you are a long island. They're my parents. They'll live in Huntington and I grew up in Kuwait and said.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:05] Look at that.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:06] Surprised to find out we have this connection.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:09] Yes.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] So let's start by talking about owning your story. What does that mean in terms of lawyers specifically. And how do you help your clients find their own story. What does that process.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:22] So I think owning your story is really about the way this is something that I and I developed this kind of this idea or this concept that it is only your story is not novel to me but in my own career journey I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up and how I how I got there and and why and what I had to do when I started practice which you know kind of led me to actually leaving practice full time was I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward and in order for you to do that.

[00:04:00] It starts by you really taking ownership and acceptance of the things that you have been through the things that have contributed to who you are the things that have driven you and pushed you in a direction that maybe you didn't realize you even wanted to go and or that you don't actually want to go in. And then from there being able to then step back and say Okay now that I recognize these things about my past and my present how does that influence the way that I want to show up in my present and my future.

[00:04:29] And so when you own your story you are accepting the the good and the bad that has helped shape you shape who you are developing an increased sense of self awareness working to heal working to be honest and authentic and then that really just helps open you up for so many more possibilities that that allow you to show up as a better professional and a better person generally.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:52] Hmm thinking about working with boys and I can also say lawyers being like well why does that matter. You know I do transactional law that is out of me only my story. Help me be a better transactional lawyer.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:05:05] So that's a great question. And I think what it helps you. What what I do. I do not believe that we operate and live in compartments although we are. We live in a society and in a world that tells us that there is our work self and that there is our home self. And while we are not the same way with our you know colleagues may be as the way we are with our best friends or with our you know our family and things like that. There is this disconnect between how we show up at work and who we are as people and that creates a tension and when you have to put on your work face and put on your work self and not be able to bring in parts of who you are you are you're not being your best self.

[00:05:47] You may be a great transactional attorney but are you the best person to work with. Are you the best colleague. Are you even. Are are you joyful in the work that you do. And I think that there's this assumption that as attorneys who do you know very high level sophisticated work that you can't then also be you can't necessarily balance and be more of who you are and not be conservative and sort of buttoned up because this profession and this work is very serious and very high stakes. So I think it matters in the sense that you can bring more of who you are at work and it makes you a better colleague. It makes you better for your clients and it makes you happier and it makes you less exhausted because you're not putting on a front if you will for the sake of just being this work self.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:35] Right. It kind of makes me think about that concept of cover saying where you feel like you can't bring all of yourself into your work environment or whatever it might be and now that's something I've been thinking more about recently because I am an immigrant. I came over from Korea when I was 10 years old and then I realized you know I spent so much of my teenage years and certainly my adult years of trying to race the fact that I am an immigrant.

[00:07:04] I changed my name. I lost my accent and I worked really hard at it to try to appear mainstream more and are now just more normal or why. Then just more recently I had to be like Oh OK. But what were the pieces that I left behind. And how is that impacting me now and how is that impacting the way I show up for other people. And as I start to sort of reclaim all of those parts that I've you know hidden or left behind that it actually gave me just more of a sense of comfort and also just like feeling just more comfortable in my own skin and then sort of an interesting realization but yeah I'd totally just hear and feel what it is that you're talking about.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:07:55] Absolutely. And I think what you mentioned is feeling more comfort comfortable in your own skin and when you're more comfortable in your own skin and can show up to work that way you are a more confident attorney. You are a more confident person. And what we know in this profession confidence is what is what is the thing that that draws people to you. It draws your it draws your colleagues to you to give you more an additional work.

[00:08:23] It draws clients to you and it it just makes everyone else feel more comfortable because there's an assumption that comes with confidence competence the assumption of competence comes with confidence in this profession. And so when you are able to show up more full and that's that's what I help my clients do is if I can help you become more confident at your core and be clear about who you are as a person. We can figure out the career stuff that stuff will come. It's the it's though it's the personal stuff that we try to keep separate from our career. That often inhibits us in our in our development in our career.

Jeena Cho: [00:08:57] And you know before we started this interview right sharing with me about how you sort of started opening your your own faith and how you actually started talking about that on your podcast so if you can just share with the audience you know how your own faith your own spirituality or religion has sort of shaped who you are and how you approach your work.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:09:20] Absolutely. So when I started my podcast three years ago I started it as a really focused a lot on personal development and the frame of reference that I came from was I was this older millennial who felt like I'd gotten dropped into this professional world that school barely prepared before right. And so all of the different pressures and things that come with being an adult knowing how to balance your your finances and your physical health and your profession and your relationships all at the same time. I didn't feel like I had a good handle on that. And so started my podcast really with that kind of frame of reference in mind.

[00:09:56] And over time I felt I felt myself growing in my faith. I am a Christian and so I felt that that was becoming a bigger part of my identity. But I kept I was holding it back in my conversations. And once I realized that it was it became difficult for me to talk fully and authentically in that particular vulnerable space without mentioning my faith. I I felt like I was being inauthentic and I felt like I had to to keep myself from you know sharing parts some things that were really important and things that I thought could be helpful to other people. And once I pulled that wall down once I let that fear go then I was able to draw and in an entirely new group of listeners to me.

[00:10:40] And I think the lesson for everyone else there is that when you show up more fully as you are in a in an authentic and in a full in a whole way you will draw the people to you that are meant to be drawn to you you will help people in ways that you don't even realize just by simply being more of who you are and so that was that was really how that came through for me because it just became such a natural part of my conversation outside of the podcast. I couldn't I could not talk about it and even at work I don't you know I don't it's I'm obviously very measured about the way that I speak about my faith in the professional environment. But when I'm thinking about the principles that that my face it the reasons why I care about people and things like that those things are connected and so I can't encourage without that perspective in my mind at least. And so that's kind of the frame of reference that kind of keeps me grounded.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:35] Was some other reason why you kept the wall up this year. Like go I'm going to turn people off.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:11:41] That's a great question. I think I was worry that people would that I would come across as preachy if you will and this and there's something about being a Christian that. And it just is. It's observation and in society that sometimes it comes across as very harsh. It comes across as dogmatic. It comes across as alienating to people and that was my fear was that the exact opposite of what I wanted to do. And so what I recognized though is that my tendency is not to be that way anyway. And so by talking about my faith more I wouldn't automatically become somebody who I wasn't I would become more of who I actually was and I wouldn't Nessus I wouldn't turn people off by virtue of me talking about it in and of itself. It would be maybe that somebody might not be interested in hearing about it and so they would choose to.

Jeena Cho: [00:12:25] Now yeah. And I love that that you can define it what that means for you. You know being able to incorporate your faith into the work that you do when you cannot really awesome model for other people what that looks like. I think you're right people do have you know ideas about what it means to be Christian and how especially if they're not Christian how other Christian people behave. And you can also help to maybe take down that stereotype and go Oh I am you know I thought that he meant that as she is showing me that it might actually mean something very different. So yeah I really love that.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:13:05] Thank you. Exactly and I think it really is just a matter the way that I try to live my life through the way I engage in social media the way I show up at work is really around the idea that if you are more of who you are and if you can be whole in who you are than other things that you don't even expect will fall into place in ways that you just can't anticipate because we're too busy boxing ourselves into these compartments that we assume we need to be. And that's just not it's just not the case.

Jeena Cho: [00:13:35] I'm well let's shift gears a little bit and talk about career transitions. Seems like I've been getting a lot of listener questions about changing careers or not even changing careers. More specifically I get a lot of questions around me. I think you kind of go through life and you check all the boxes right. You go to a school you pass the bar or you get a job you make partner or you buy the house with the white picket fence Yep two kids you have to the car in the garage but then all of a sudden you hit this wall and there's this feeling of like oh I have everything but I'm still just content I have everything but I am still so incredibly unhappy.

[00:14:12] I was just talking to a lawyer recently and she said she literally sits in her garage everyday and cries before she goes into the house and she's like but I just don't like I don't even feel like I have a right to feel that way and it just feels so overwhelming to think that you know think that while I put so much work and so much effort to get to where I am and to think that I was all for nothing or all for not. So I know that's a huge bag of topics that I sort of threw out there but you know when someone comes to you when they're just in that state of like I just don't know. You know I got to the end of the rainbow and there's no pot of gold and all I see is just more misery and dread where someone who's in that situation.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:15:00] Yeah that's a great question and I definitely have had that conversation many many times with some with them some of the clients that I work with. What it comes down to I start with how let's talk about how you got here because and this is a reflection my of my own career journey. I got to the desire to become an attorney by virtue of me seeing the power that was associated with the with being an attorney. Me also seeing that there is a security of of of of a financial future that came with being an attorney.

[00:15:33] And so and I never wavered from that and I never explored anything else. And so when you're talking about kind of why people are unhappy where they are. We have to figure out what got them here first because when you deconstruct why they are where they are today you start to hear them talk about the things that they actually cared about or that they wanted you start to hear about the things that they feel gives them purpose and where that disconnect is why doesn't this job that you're in right now make it light you up. Why don't you feel that it's fulfilling or that you're living intentionally.

[00:16:08] And they start to when you're just ask them questions about their journey they tell you answers to what those next they give you at least insights into what those next step might need to be. And it may not mean leaving the profession. It may not mean leaving your law firm it may be asking for some setting harder boundaries. It may be asking for permission to you know become a leader in a different type of way. It may mean making shifts in the way you show up at work every day and it may mean resolving some of the issues that keep you feeling guilty about being successful.

[00:16:42] Because again that's it's not that the career the career is is really just it is kind of the surface part of it. We are people before we show up to work every day. We were people before you know where people as attorneys were not just attorneys. Right. And that's and saying just attorneys is not to diminish the profession but it is to say we are people who are attorneys. And so how do you service the whole person who's shows up as an attorney are a jobs are not our identities but we live in a society that makes our job our identity. I'm sure you have encountered you go to a professional networking events or what do you do. Where do you work. It's the way that we label and we attach value to people and if we can't attach value to ourselves outside of our work when our work isn't fulfilling us we will therefore feel like we have less value.

Jeena Cho: [00:17:31] Hmm yeah that's some yeah that's Hanako's brings us back full circle to what we started talking about as we have to begin by owning our stories of where our journey has taken us so far. Step after you sort of figure out OK. This is my story. This is how I got to where I am but what's the next step.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:17:54] The next step is to really think about well what do you care about what is important to you. Why do you like certain aspects of the work that you do. And what about certain aspects of your of your work is draining you. That was one of the questions that I was posed by one of my mentors when I first raised the concern that I'm I didn't think I wanted to practice in a law firm environment anymore. Was well figure out if it's though if it's right now or if it's the whole thing. Figure out if it's the project that you're on. If it's the season at work or if it's the entire kind of experience that you're having.

[00:18:30] And so basically what you have to do is you have to really ask yourself some very very hard questions and figure out OK how why am I feeling the way that I'm feeling what at a certain point in the day when certain a certain person speaks to me. Why am I reacting the way that I'm reacting. And from there you can then start to say OK so maybe it's not that I don't want to be an attorney but maybe I don't want to practice in this environment anymore. Maybe it's this type of work that I'm doing. Maybe it's maybe it's a management issue. Right. It may actually be that it's there's a team issue with the work that in the way that you're currently working it could be.

[00:19:04] So it really is. You have to ask yourself a bunch of questions that really get to okay the here and now and then from there depending on what those answers are. Now we have to figure out OK how do we get how do we get from here to where we hope to be that in a place that will make us feel more whole. And what strategies do we have to figure out to make those to make that leap. And those are you know those strategies can come in a hundred different types of ways but it's really assessing the here and now and then kind of reverse engineering your way into a strategy to move onto the next step.

Jeena Cho: [00:19:39] So I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk about values. How I want us to start. You know what. What does that even mean. You say knowing your values and honoring them when does that mean.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:19:53] So I use I always think about values in two senses. Knowing your value as a person and as an individual and the things that you were uniquely gifted with that make you that makes you you based on your experiences based on the things that come most natural to you the things that you really enjoy. And when it comes to your values does is it important for you to have flexibility so that you can stay in work at home every day. Is it important for you to work in an organization that is dedicated to servicing the community in a certain way. Is it important for you to to make sure that you have time with your family by a certain time every day.

[00:20:34] Is it is being able to come to work in jeans every everyday or versus the business professional right. What are the things that you know that really are really really important to you that you find may be at odds with or are affirmed by the current space that you're working in. So you really have to. Again it's this is all about self-awareness as it comes. This all of this the conversation that we're having really revolves around having a very heightened self sense of self awareness because then you you will unequivocally know what's important to you and then be able to figure out if your work and your career aligns or is not aligned with those things.

Jeena Cho: [00:21:14] How do you go about figuring out what your values are. Is it just like something you sit around and think about it.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:21:22] I think you know you have to pay attention to to what you how you spend your time. Pay attention to where your where your energy is is fullfil is kind of refilled or drained. And pay attention to how you talk. Pay attention to the things that you say and ask and ask people when you talk to people who know you best when you see me and when you what do you think. What do you think is really important to me based on what you know about me. And then kind of check in and say you know what if that person thinks that that's really important to me and that sounds crazy to me then you know I need to figure out what I'm putting out there that makes it seem like that's what's really important to me.

[00:22:01] So it's not just you know kind of sitting around thinking about it but really being active in your and being active and present in your everyday existence and seeing where there's where there's synergy and where there's disconnect for example when I knew that was something that was really important to me was being able to physically interact with people and help change individual people right and to be able to help develop people on a really individual level that's something that's really important to me and really almost I want to say it's central to my identity which is why the shift that I made when I first made it out out of out of litigation practice really helped kind of fulfill that and helped me explore that more. But that was only something that I recognized when I sat down and said well why am I so unhappy right now. And when do I get really really excited when someone comes to my office with an individual problem and I don't I'm not happy that person has a problem but I'm really excited that I am helping them find an answer to that problem.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:00] Tiffany for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you and your work. What's the best place for them to go into that.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:23:07] You can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can search Tiffany Southerlyn that's Tiffany with two F's and o u you you can connect with me on the at Four Corners coaching that com and that's the number four spelled out EFO you are. And you can also connect with me on on I'm on Instagram. I don't know if your listeners are big on instagram but I'm at TIFF south on Instagram as well and that's tiff with two s. So anytime you search for Tiffany with two F's and s o u t h you can find me online. You can find me on social media.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:39] Fantastic. The lesson is that I like. I think I kind of want to work with her or just have a chat with her. How did they go about scheduling a better time. Chali.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:23:48] If you go to B T dot l y slash 10. Tiff and that's the number 10 and that's tiff again with two F's again. L y slash 10. Tiff and TIFF were two F's. You will be able to connect with me there and I also want to offer your listeners a lot of what we talked about today was you know how do you reflect on where you've been. How do you reflect on what you've done.

[00:24:12] I've created a workbook that is really designed to help you reflect on the experience that you've had over the course of your career so that you can documented and really be prepared to understand how you how you can improve and how you can position yourself for different opportunities so if you text tiff south and that's tiff with two EFFs 2 4 4 4 9 9 9 you'll be able to get that workbook and you will be able to connect from there and you'll really get a good idea. It's called the leverage list workbook and you'll really be able to get a good idea of how you can progress and really what you've done. Because we often discount our experience in favor of you know thinking that everybody can do this but we are unique and wonderfully made individuals that allow us to show up in ways that nobody else can because you are you for a very specific reason.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:04] I love it and if you're driving you're like wait what did she say. You can just check it out at the show to all the information will be available in the show. Now it's said Tiffany before I let you go. One final question. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a The Resilient Lawyer to you.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:25:22] It means to show up whole and be confident in doing so knowing that you showing uphold you showing up as authentically you will encourage other people to do the same and it will help make you a better professional and a better attorney and a better person by doing so.

Jeena Cho: [00:25:41] Tiffany, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate it.

Tiffany Southerland: [00:25:44] Thank you so much for having me Jeena.

Closing: [00:25:47] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us that smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on Allison Holzman to continue our parenting series on her journey balancing her career in family law and her 2 sons as a single-by-choice mother.

Allison is an attorney at Weinberger Divorce and Family Law Group, a midsize firm in New Jersey. She has been practicing for nearly 18 years and has focused exclusively on family law since 2002. Allison is also a single mom by choice to two adorable boys, ages 2 and 3 months, who make sure her life is never boring. When she isn't running after her boys, she enjoys pilates, Netflix, and warm chocolate chip cookies!

Topics Covered

• Being a single mom by choice as a practicing attorney and the steps one would take in starting down a single mom by choice path.
• Single mom does not just mean "get some sperm" - Allison goes into the online dating-like process of finding a donor and the many facets of control she had in deciding on the best candidate.
• Strategies for coping with the loss of pregnancies, and dealing with the waiting and rising out-of-pocket costs.

Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have on Katy Young to continue our parenting series on what her IVF treatment journey looked like while managing her firm and caseload.

Katy represents plaintiffs and defendants in business and real estate disputes, including matters for cannabis industry litigants. She graduated from University of the Pacific, and then she went to University of San Francisco for law school. She is a Northern California Super Lawyer Rising Star for 2014 through 2019. In 2018, she was named to Benchmark Litigation's 40 & Under Hot List. She is also the President of the National Cannabis Bar Association.

Topics Covered

• Both how she found herself working in cannabis law and what that growing segment of law looks like from the inside.
• What infertility treatments look like while practicing law, and dealing with the associated impatience while having a breast cancer scare that postponed her treatments.
• How she balanced running her firm, managing her caseload, and the emotional energy that it takes to go through IVF at the same time.

 
Find out more about Katy at:

Astra Legal
Facebook
Twitter

Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Jessica Glassburn on to talk about juggling career transitions and motherhood.

Jessica grew up in Washington D.C. but has spent most of her adult life in the Midwest. She has practiced in family law and worked in law school admissions offices, and currently works as the Program Chair for Paralegal and Legal Studies at Ivy Tech Community College in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She has been happily married for 4 ½ years with an almost 14-year-old, a 2-year-old, and their dog.

Topics Covered

• Career transitions, defining your identity outside of the law, and shifting and balancing your career with family.
• The trials of online dating, getting married later in life, and dealing with infertility.
• How her surprise adoption came about and the process of being there for her adopted son's birth.

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

Free Webinar

Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

How would you like to improve your legal practice and increase your well being, in only 6 minutes per day? I can show you how to build a more sustainable, peaceful and productive law practice with just a tiny investment of your time.

I'm excited to introduce you to my new online course, "Mindful Pause: 6 Minutes to Better Lawyering."

Learn more and register here.

Who is Mindful Pause for?

It's for lawyers who want to find a better way to create a more sustainable, joyful, and fulfilling law practice. Often, we as lawyers are not taught healthy behaviors or tools for managing the stress, anxiety, and daily pressures we face. Mindful Pause will create an accessible and enjoyable entry into practices that can reduce anxiety, improve focus and clarity, and enrich the quality of life.

[Learn more]

In this episode, I am excited to have spoken to Nicole Sandoz, Lauren Dubin, and Michael Goldman: 3 amazing lawyers from Georgetown Law School. Lauren Dubin is Director of Public Sector Careers in the Office of Public Interest and Community Service and an administrator and facilitator for the Lawyers in Balance: Mindfulness for Law Students Program.  Lauren graduated from the University of MD with an M.A. in Counseling, Higher Education and Career Development. She is dedicated to bringing the lessons of mindfulness to the Law Center community through ongoing meditation opportunities, continuing education and enhanced awareness of contemplative practice in professional development.

Nicole Sandoz is the Director of Student Life and Sexual Assault and Relationship Violence Liaison (SARVL) at Georgetown Law.  She is also a facilitator in the Lawyers in Balance: Mindfulness for Law Students Program.  Nicole is a graduate of Amherst College and Cornell Law. After law school, Nicole practiced for five years as a labor and employment attorney in Los Angeles in top-tier law firms.  While in private practice, Nicole discovered meditation and yoga, and they have since become a regular part of her everyday practice. 

Michael Goldman, a Georgetown University Law Center graduate and a lawyer in a previous career, has been the Jewish Chaplain for the Law and Medical Centers since August 2002. He has been a student of Judaism for most his adult life and has taught numerous courses on Judaica, including courses at Georgetown. Prior to his involvement in LIB, Michael facilitated groups at the Georgetown Medical Center in their mind-body seminar. Based on that experience, Michael worked with administrators at the Georgetown Law to adapt the mind-body course for law students. In this regard, Michael has studied the works of Jon Kabat Zinn and Thich Nhat Hanh, among others, on the subject of mindfulness. He attended and presented at the June 2013 Workshop on Mindfulness in Legal Education at Berkeley Law.

Topics Covered

• What led each of them down the path of mindfulness as lawyers, the inception of the program from Michael's background at the Medical School, and how the course is structured.
• The students feedback to the program and the benefits that they receive; from stress and anxiety reduction to skills that help them ultimately become better lawyers, like attentive and active listening and better focus in their courses.
• How this grass-roots program became all it's own over the years and how they train their facilitators. They also speak on tips for big law firms on implementing programs similar to theirs.
• The other applications of meditation and mindfulness at the law center and how the students founded The Contemplative Law Society to expand their reach to the community at large.

You can learn more about them and their awesome work at:

Lawyers in Balance

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Sponsor:

Spotlight Branding provides internet marketing services exclusively for solo & small law firms.

Unlike most internet marketing firms, they do NOT focus on SEO. Instead, they specialize in branding their clients as trusted, credible experts, increasing referrals, and ultimately driving growth.

For our listeners, Spotlight Branding is offering a complimentary website review. Go to: SpotlightBranding.com/trl

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:02] Today's show is sponsored by Spotlight Branding. Spotlight Branding works exclusively with solo and small law firms to brand them as trusted, credible experts and help them stand out in a crowded market place. Their services include web design, social media, video marketing and more.

Michael Goldman: [00:00:25] I think there are so many times where you're engaged in an issue, you join the issue, you're wrestling over the issue. And it can go sideways, as you indicated, but the ability to step back a little bit and say, wait a second, what if I concede this?

Intro: [00:00:44] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:10] Hello my friends. Thanks for being here with me today. In this episode, I am so delighted to have three amazing people from Georgetown Law School. I have Nicole Sandoz, Director of Student Life and Sexual Assault and Relationship Violence Liaison. I have Lauren Dubin, Director of Public Sector Careers in the Office of Public Interest and Community Service. And finally, Michael Goldman, Chaplain of Georgetown Law and Medical School. All three of them are part of the Lawyers and Balance: Mindfulness Meditation Program at the law school. I'm really excited to see that law schools are actually making student well-being part of their priority.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:51] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't heard the last episode, please go back and check it out. I shared a six minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's also very apt because we'll be talking about mindfulness and meditation in this episode. So often I hear lawyers complain that they know they should meditate, but they don't have the time. And so I created a program Mindful Pause, which is designed to help you incorporate mindfulness and meditation into your very busy schedule in six minutes or less. So if you're interested in learning more, please head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more.