The Big Exit Show (Peak)

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Hendrik Witt of Ubimax. Witt sold his augmented reality solution to Teamviewer in 2020. A story with many valuable lessons: 

• How to bootstrap your startup, by doing consulting on the side
• Successfully working together with the innovation department of big corporations
• The importance of momentum and why you need to close a deal as soon as possible

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this audio snippet of The Big Exit Show by Peak, entrepreneur Geert-Jan Smits of Flinders explains why he had to sell his house in order to fund inventory. You can listen to the complete story of Geert-Jan in the first episode of The Big Exit Show. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to serial entrepreneur Hannes Klöpper. Hannes is currently building a new company called HelloBetter, but sold his previous company that specialized in Massive Online Open Courses - Iversity - in 2017 to Springer Nature. It wasn't the exit you hope for as a founder when starting a company, but nonetheless a story with many valuable lessens: 

• The challenges when building a company with large education institutions as a customer
• When you know it might be the right time to hand over the company
• Why you should make an exit, even if the forecast of the company isn't looking too bright

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this short story of The Big Exit Show Emma Tracey of Honeypot explains how they solved the “chicken and the egg problem” and got supply and demand for their marketplace startup. Listen to more stories from Emma in the third episode of The Big Exit Show.

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Henk Jan Bijmolt who founded the webshop Gadero that specializes in large wooden objects such as fences for gardens. You will learn: 

• What to do if you get into an argument with your co-founder (in the case: your brother)
• How to balance new ideas you might have while also running a company
• Why you should keep a 1% stake in the company even after you exit

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Arco van Nieuwland who started the accounting software giant Exact in 1984 which he sold many year later. He started another SaaS-accounting tool called Yuki which was sold to Visma last year. In this episode you will learn: 

• What it was like starting and scaling a software company in the 80s
• Why Arco started a new company while still being one of the largest shareholders in Exact
• Why you shouldn't always sell to the highest bidder
• How much he eventually sold Yuki for to Visma...

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Paul Veugen who founded Usabilla, which was sold to SurveyMonkey and the iOS app of the year Human.co which was acquired by Mapbox. He is currently building a new venture called Detail.co to help creators make better video. Detail.co was funded with over 7 million dollars. In this episode you will learn: 

• Why Paul got kicked-out of his investors office, after he shared he wanted to step down as CEO of Usabilla
• What his experience was living in San Fransisco for a couple of years
• How nobody knew in the company he was working for at the time, he just made a mega-exit
• How Paul managed to secure an exit for Human in a couple of weeks time

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

Welcome back to The Big Exit Show! I'm Johan, and with me is Anke, and today, we dive deep into the world of entrepreneurial grit and personal triumph with our guest, Gerrit. From his days as a Royal Marine to the challenging world of banking, Gerrit's story is a compelling tale of transition, embodying resilience and determination.

In this special episode, we uncover the inception of Appical, Gerrit's brainchild, borne from his marine experience and onto the demanding tech landscape. We'll explore how his unique approach to customer relationships and financing helped scale the company and navigate international expansion.

Gerrit doesn't shy away from discussing the tougher times—raising funds, surmounting cultural shifts, co-founder dynamics, and the mental toll it took on him. We'll delve into the lessons learned from the stressful and hostile environment that led to his difficult exit from the company he passionately built.

Post-exit, Gerrit faced an intense period of recovery, choosing personal well-being over legal battles. Now, living life on his terms, he imparts those hard-earned insights, revealing the gift within the challenge—finding growth in struggle.

For startup founders, Gerrit's story offers valuable guidance on adding value, smart hiring, and charting your path with a mindfulness toward the dynamics of your team and potential future exits. So buckle up for a truly enlightening journey as Gerrit shares the roller coaster ride that has now transitioned into teaching and consulting, shaping his profound message for entrepreneurs everywhere. Stay tuned, and let's learn how to navigate the complexities of building and exiting a company, the Gerrit way.

 We will talk about: 

• 00:00 Grit and resilience crucial for successful founders.
• 05:21 Military induction, transformation, completion, reevaluation, departure decision.
• 09:45 Founding mobile learning app despite investment business.
• 13:37 Working with big brands, intense meetings frustration.
• 17:31 Received letter about shareholder meeting, solved problem.
• 21:45 Close customer relationship, upfront payment, cash flow.
• 23:42 Transition from Harriet to Hank, building relationships.
• 28:53 International expansion required customer and product scalability.
• 33:11 Seeking market leadership, secured funding, expanded into Europe.
• 35:38 Unfavorable work environment led to colleague's exit.
• 39:27 Exit from company, loss of control, burnout.
• 43:32 Prepare for exit while building your business.
• 46:09 Chose to exit legal battle, faced consequences.
• 52:03 "Adding value, hire right, create roadmap, coach."
• 55:41 Entrepreneur's personal story, struggles, and leadership reflection.

Get to know Gerrit better:
Born and raised in Bolsworth within a Frisian community, Gerrit harbored an unwavering aspiration from a young age to join the Royal Marines. And now  a business builder and a team enabler. He is an active interim manager for tech startups and scaleups and as an interim HR specialist for employee onboarding & retention. Furthermore, he specialised in data analytics to support data-driven initiatives in the candidate & employee journey.
Want to have contact with Gerrit you can do that through his LinkedIn
This is his book

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In today's episode, hosts Anke and Johan engage in a deeply reflective conversation with Manoj Adithya, the founder who sold his company, Roam AI, last December. Manoj walks us through a journey characterized by high-stakes decisions, ethical dilemmas, and the immense pressure of aligning his team and maintaining investor relations. He reveals the painstaking process of pivoting a location-based messaging app into a sophisticated location tracking enterprise, and the significant challenges faced during acquisition negotiations — including offers that fell through at the eleventh hour and the ethical stance he took in rejecting dubious deals that sidelined investors.

This episode provides a sobering look into the strategic and emotional complexities of startup life, highlighting the importance of maintaining a moral compass, leveraging mentorship, and the transformative potential of rebranding. Manoj’s story is one of resilience, offering valuable insights on navigating the unpredictable landscape of acquisitions, transparency during due diligence, and fostering investor trust.

Join us for an episode that delves into the profound lessons learned from Manoj’s entrepreneurial journey, the essential role of ethical decision-making, and the critical preparation needed for successful exits. This is The Big Exit Show.

This is what you will hear:

00:00 Excited to discuss Roam AI's beginnings and acquisition.

04:10 Location tracking tech pivoted into GeoSpark platform.

09:52 Launched platform, gained 5,600 signups, proved success.

11:09 Persistence secured investment after regular progress updates.

16:36 Rebranding due to lawsuit improved business perception.

17:20 Increased interest led to partnerships and decisions.

22:24 Wanted proof of funds; they couldn't provide.

23:38 Avoid distractions; maintain balance and focus.

28:32 Walking away was difficult but necessary decision.

30:16 Talk to mentors and walk to de-stress.

34:39 Extensive due diligence required detailed document preparation.

37:45 Echo analytics acquired Roam AI, a startup.

42:11 Deal with Echo almost failed; signed rollercoaster.

44:05 Stay prepared; research companies; highlight synergistic potential.

46:42 Starting company; expanding podcast operations and studio.

Want to know more about Manoj Adithya:
Manoj launched his entrepreneurial journey with the inception of a company originally named Holo. The innovative idea behind Holo was to create a location-based messaging app, allowing users to leave messages for friends and family at specific locations, which would get triggered and notified upon arrival. The concept gained considerable traction, amassing around 20,000 users at its peak. As the company evolved, it was rebranded as Roam AI, showcasing Manoj's knack for adapting and innovating within the tech landscape. His story is one of creative vision and strategic growth, marking him as a notable figure in the entrepreneurial space.

Connect with him on LinkedIn

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

We sit down with Dewi, the former CEO and co-founder of Flow Pilots, to discuss her remarkable entrepreneurial journey and the invaluable lessons she learned with her exit.

Dewi's story begins in 2011 when she and her then-husband established Flow Pilots, driven by a shared vision to revolutionize the user experience of computer programs. By focusing on mobile strategy, business applications, change management, and enterprise architecture, Flow Pilots differentiated itself in a competitive market.

Throughout the episode, Dewi candidly shares the challenges she faced as a founder, from navigating the complexities of running a business with her spouse to overcoming cash flow issues caused by delayed customer payments. She also discusses her transition to the CEO role in 2018 and the strategic decisions that followed.

One of the most significant moments in Dewi's journey was the decision to sell Flow Pilots in 2022. In this episode, she provides an honest account of the factors that led to this choice, the importance of finding the ideal customer profile, and the emotional and professional challenges that accompanied the transition period.

This episode offers a wealth of insights for entrepreneurs, including the art of negotiation, the value of transparent communication during mergers and acquisitions, and the importance of resilience in the face of adversity. Join us as we learn from Dewi's experiences and gain a deeper understanding of what it takes to build, grow, and eventually exit a successful company.

This is what we discuss:

• 00:00 Introduction to the Big Exit Show
• 00:33 Interview with Davy van de Vijver: The Beginning
• 06:09 Challenges of Running a Business with a Spouse
• 14:26 Navigating Financial Struggles and Growth
• 19:07 Transition to CEO and Company Evolution
• 20:43 Partnership with Sipal Schouwbroek
• 28:58 Strategizing the Future
• 29:27 Presenting to the Board
• 30:17 Engaging Potential Buyers
• 31:17 Team Involvement and Transition
• 36:58 Valuation and Exit Details
• 39:18 Post-Exit Reflections
• 42:29 New Beginnings
• 49:26 Final Thoughts and Advice
• 52:46 Closing Remarks 

More about Dewi Van De Vyver:
I plead for ethics in tech, sustainable business and more diversity in tech. You can find me on the panel of the podcast Tech45, with the event The Ada Talks, in several boards of directors, and in the government’s advisory group for technology education. I am all in, for as long as it takes. Want to connect? You can do that through LinkedIn

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Jeroen van Velzen who sold his corporate travel SaaS-company Roadmap in in 2021 to the American conglomerate Emburse. You will learn: 

• Why Jeroen never reads a contract.
• How to get clients like Nike, Microsoft and Pfizer. 
• Why you should keep your customers happy, even if a company is failing. 

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

In this episode of The Big Exit Show, Marc gives details about Usabilla's significant pivot in 2012, which involved shifting focus to enterprise clients, phasing out less profitable products, and instituting annual contracts. This strategic move led to exceptional revenue growth and helped the company achieve breakeven within nine months. The conversation sheds light on the intricate process of preparing for and executing an acquisition.

Marc also emphasizes the importance of aligning shareholder interests, exploring various exit strategies, and ultimately partnering with SurveyMonkey—a decision influenced by their people-focused approach and solid valuation.

And finally Marc discusses his post-acquisition experience, including the challenges of adjusting to a new corporate environment and the personal toll during the COVID era. He reflects on his tenure, shares his activities post-exit, and offers advice on the significance of calculated risks and the benefits of bootstrapping in the initial phases of a startup.

This episode provides valuable insights into the nuanced journey of managing a tech startup through transformational change and a successful acquisition.

This is what we will talk about this episode:

• 00:00 Learning from late founder about company management.
• 07:11 Determining founder type, admitting limitations, and startup challenges.
• 09:45 Podcast discussed Paul's companies, including Usabilla.
• 12:32 Creating technology for website screenshots, monetization struggles.
• 14:51 Transitioned from 11 to 2, did everything.
• 20:34 Early feedback led to successful product pivot.
• 23:44 Cap table, cash flow, invoicing, healthy organization.
• 27:29 Explored investment with advisors and experienced investors.
• 29:43 Selected boutique firm understood global market, sealed  deal.
• 32:03 European company considers exit amid market uncertainty.
• 38:38 Running two businesses with a solid partner.
• 39:43 CFO managed finances, kept sale quiet. Cultural fit.
• 45:24 Celebrated with team, had dinner, partied.
• 47:58 Separation beneficial after company integration, typically within 2-3 years.
• 50:25 Yusabila's public acquisition for 80 million USD.
• 54:30 Business, family, running, and a new company.
• 56:13 Successful journey with ups and downs. Great outcome.

Get to know Marc van Agteren a little better:
Marc van Agteren, a former Ernst & Young employee with a deep passion for web development, is a co-founder and key figure at Usabilla. A long-time friend of Paul Veugen, the original founder of Usabilla and fellow member of their student rowing club, Marc was witness to the company's inception in 2008. Despite being entrenched in a secure role at Ernst & Young, Marc's interest in innovative tools and web development grew. By 2010, the same year his girlfriend, now wife, relocated from Estonia to the Netherlands, Marc made the pivotal decision to join Paul at Usabilla, embracing his entrepreneurial spirit and technical expertise.
Contact him on LinkedIn.

Want to listen to the episode from Paul:  The Big Exit Show | Selling Usabilla and Human.co - Paul Veugen on his multiple startup exits (transistor.fm)

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

On this episode of The Big Exit Show, hosts Johan and Anke sit down with Patrick Löffler, the former snowboarder and entrepreneur behind the successful credit card company Givve. They explore Patrick’s unique journey from bankruptcy to building a company that prioritized digital work culture and employee well-being. Listen in as this episode discusses the following:

• Givve's strategic pivot
• The complexities of the acquisition process
• The crucial role of workplace culture in choosing an acquisition partner
• And Patrick's personal takeaways from the exit experience

All wrapped up with insights on the true cost and rewards of entrepreneurship. It's a tell-all episode packed with lessons on innovation, perseverance, and the art of a graceful exit.

More about Patrick:
Patrick launched GIvve in 2010 as a company selling universal gift vouchers. Initially targeting consumers (B2C), the business saw limited success. Recognizing the need to adapt, Patrick strategically shifted GIvve's focus to a business-to-business (B2B) model. Capitalizing on country-specific tax incentives, such as Germany's €50 per employee tax-exempt benefit, GIvve now supplies prepaid credit cards for companies to offer as tax-free perks to employees. Patrick's leadership and agility have made GIvve a key player in providing practical financial solutions that fit seamlessly into an employee's daily essentials—right next to their keys and phone.
What to learn more about Patrick, check this out
givve® » Ihr erfahrener Partner für starke Benefits

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

Today we have a special guest – the dynamic entrepreneur, Josef Brunner. Josef, who founded his first company at 16, has since sold multiple businesses for over $400 million. In this episode, we delve into the emotional rollercoaster of selling a business, emphasizing the essential support mentors can provide. Josef shares wisdom on personal and ethical conduct, the value of work ethics, and how to protect intellectual property during acquisitions.

We’ll explore his stoic philosophy, the importance of transparency and trust in acquisition processes, and the delicate balance of control and delegation in managing a company. Josef also highlights the significance of meaningful legacy over financial gain, his approach to maintaining relationships post-acquisition, and how he prepares his organizations for seamless leadership transitions. Tune in for invaluable insights on dealing with acquisition challenges, the pitfalls of relying too heavily on bankers, and the importance of direct, personal engagement throughout the exit journey.

Whether you're gearing up for an exit or just curious about the highs and lows of entrepreneurial success, this episode is packed with lessons that resonate far beyond the boardroom. Let's dive in!

This is what you get to hear:

• 00:00 Josef Brunner discusses entrepreneurial journey on podcast.
• 09:03 Embrace curiosity; avoid thoughts of failure.
• 15:15 Stable networks indicate success; prioritizing relationships matters.
• 19:32 Institutionalized entrepreneurship and supported former employees' ventures.
• 23:05 Build strong relationships for successful deal-making.
• 26:55 Clearly define goals and build a sustainable organization.
• 34:48 Rumors impact productivity; transparency risks misinterpretation.
• 39:07 Decision based on legacy, gut feel, offers.
• 42:49 Big risks in venture capital yield results.
• 50:25 Regret selling them too early for money.
• 53:52 Be the person you want others to be.
• 01:03:41 Relentless resilience eventually overcomes opposition.
• 01:06:27 Invest in employees who innovate externally.
• 01:11:00 Engage cross-organization for effective leadership succession.

Want to know more about Joseph Brunner:
Josef Brunner's life took a dramatic turn at 15 when his parents' bakery went bankrupt, rendering his family homeless as they lived in the bakery. Faced with these harsh circumstances, Josef made the difficult decision to drop out of school, despite his passion for studying physics and love for numbers. Determined to support his family, he channelled his entrepreneurial spirit into starting a company, which he successfully sold by the time he was 18. With the earnings, he was able to buy a new house for his parents, where they continue to live to this day.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In today's episode, we're delving into the remarkable entrepreneurial journey of Robin van Lieshout, the founder who recently led his company Insided to a monumental acquisition by Gainsight.

In this intimate conversation, Robin opens up about the highs and lows that come with building a successful business from its online consumer electronics origins to a community software leader netting 100 million ARR in 2022. Listen in as he shares the ups and downs of partnering with a friend, the emotional impact of downsizing his team, and the strategic moves that substantially increased his company's valuation.

We're also tackling the personal side of selling a business. Robin reflects on his quest for meaning and purpose post-acquisition, the significance of creating a network of peers for support, and the influence of company culture on a successful team dynamic. Get an inside look at what it takes to navigate the challenges of international expansion and hear Robin's candid take on the decision-making process that eventually led to Gainsight's purchase offer.

Learn about the considerations that outweighed even high valuation term sheets, and discover why Robin made the tough choice to prioritize stability and strategic alignment over greater financial incentives. Robin also imparts wisdom on the value of external perspectives and the role they played in his company's pivotal moments.

So, tune in as we explore these insights and more with our exceptional guest, Robin van Lieshout, on this episode of The Big Exit Show. Whether you're a founder, investor, or merely intrigued by the art of the exit, today's conversation is sure to enlighten. Stay with us, as we uncover the complexity and victories within the ultimate entrepreneur's rite of passage—the big exit.

• 06:41 Starting a company with close friends.
• 11:21 Invested in culture and team dynamics from start.
• 16:17 Changed my perspective on board meetings positively.
• 21:19 Balancing ambition with honesty and realism is crucial.
• 28:42 Struggles as a CEO, seeking external perspective.
• 32:39 Organization crashed due to selling to many segments.
• 39:08 Flew to London for 20-minute vision presentation.
• 46:55 Disagreement over currency reporting, causing nerve-wracking delay.
• 52:04 Considering selling company to unknown brand name.
• 57:50 Assumptions about customer base and revenue growth.
• 01:02:30 Quiet office celebration for pending acquisition announcement.
• 01:07:42 Considering future roles and potential time off. 

Getting to know Robin van Lieshout:
Robin is an Entrepreneur, Investor, Strategist and Community Builder. He founded and sold two companies, most recently inSided, a SaaS platform for technology companies to build their own Community. He raised $7M in funding, scaled to 100+ employees worldwide and eventually sold to San Francisco based Customer Success leader Gainsight.
Robin currently acts as the Chief Strategy Officer at Gainsight, where he is responsible for several product lines, new market development, long term corporate strategy and M&A. He recently did his first $50M+ acquisition and has the experience of being on both sides of the table. In his free time he is an advisor and investor in many startups, large VC/PE funds and in family time.

You could find Robin's book: Customer communities here.

Thanks for joining us on The Big Exit Show! If you liked our chat with Robin van Lieshout, please follow us on your podcast platform of choice to stay updated with our latest episodes.

We'd also really appreciate if you could leave us a review. Your ratings and feedback help us reach more listeners and keep delivering the content you love.

Catch you on the next episode for more incredible exit stories!

In this conversation, Anthony shares his entrepreneurial journey, starting from his early fascination with sales at the age of 12 to founding Swogo, a company that evolved through multiple pivots. He discusses the challenges and strategies involved in transitioning from B2C to B2B, the importance of customer insights, and innovative sales tactics that helped him build credibility. Anthony also reflects on his experiences with crowdfunding, the decision to avoid traditional VC funding, and the pivotal moment that led him to sell his company, achieving his long-held goal of financial success. In this conversation, Anthony shares his journey through the exit process of his company, detailing the strategies he employed to create interest and FOMO among potential buyers. He discusses the importance of engaging a banker who understands the entrepreneurial mindset, the dynamics of his executive team during the sale, and the timeline of the exit process. Anthony emphasizes the need for entrepreneurs to define their personal goals and the significance of delayed gratification in achieving long-term success. He concludes with insights on maximizing value during the exit process.

What we will talk about:

00:00 The Journey of Entrepreneurship
03:16 From Idea to Product
05:34 Navigating the Retail Landscape
07:49 Innovative Sales Strategies
10:34 Early Influences and Motivation
11:40 Funding the Venture
14:48 Crowdfunding Success
16:48 Sales Skills in Fundraising
18:10 Choosing Crowdfunding Over VC
20:01 The Decision to Exit
21:35 Preparing for the Sale
24:44 Creating FOMO in Acquisition
26:22 Navigating the M&A Process
29:53 Engaging the Right Banker
32:03 Communicating Vision and Value
35:48 The Offer and LOI Process
39:52 Understanding Personal Goals in Exits
41:39 Delayed Gratification and Celebrating Success
43:27 The Entrepreneurial Spirit Continues

Want to know more about Anthony NG Monica:
Anthony worked at a number of startups, including ‘Seedrs‘ and ‘Student Money Saver‘, as well as at Venture Capital Firm ‘DFJ Esprit‘. It was whilst working as an IT Support Analyst that he came up with the idea for Swogo. His colleagues would consistently ask him to help them choose the right electronics product, and even though he kept up-to-date with the industry, he‘d have to research for hours across several sources to find the right product. He felt that there had to be a simpler way, and that‘s when he came up with the idea for Swogo.
You can contact him best through email at: anthony@dailybodycoach.com

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Eline Vrijland who sold her medtech startup Nightbalance in 2018 to Philips. You will learn: 

• How Eline is approaching multiple VC’s at the same time. 
• Why pitching your company is valuable in the startup phase. 
• When to be realistic about the valuation of your own company. 

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

Today’s episode, is a fascinating tale of ambition, strategy, and the significance of timing in the business world. With us are our insightful guest, Magnus Jern from TAPP Water.

Magnus, a serial entrepreneur with a tech and human-centric design background, took the challenge of changing consumer behaviour head-on with the creation of TAPP Water. A company dedicated to reducing plastic waste by providing a convenient solution to tap water filtration.

Our conversation with Magnus reveals his journey from celebrating Tap Water’s first online sale to the eventual acquisition by Blue Water Group. With a deep dive into the strategies that led to 80% of their sales being organic and 20-30% of new customers coming through referrals.
We'll discuss the pivotal moments like launching on Amazon, emphasizing convenience over sustainability, and the importance of hiring adaptable problem-solvers for a mission-oriented startup.

Beyond the numbers, Magnus shares with us the intricacies of leading a company to be acquisition-ready. From raising funds and facing rejections to choosing the right moment to sell, informed by a past experience that taught him the cost of greed.
So don't miss out as we uncover the mix of timing, luck, and the critical role of preparation when navigating the sales process.

We will talk about:

• 00:00 Experience makes talent attraction and acquisition easier.
• 04:23 Successful tech entrepreneur transitions to impact space.
• 07:39 Challenging journey to live eco-friendly lives.
• 11:43 Building a sustainable, valuable business is key.
• 13:51 Overcoming challenges in hardware, hiring struggles.
• 18:53 Tech space easy to raise money, hardware challenges.
• 19:50 Investment criteria limited, importance of right questions.
• 23:56 Reluctantly took over business due to challenges.
• 26:55 Seeking opportunities by keeping communication channels open.
• 29:32 Buyer role during pitch calls essential preparation.
• 35:21 Having clear goals can be life-changing.
• 36:23 Embracing career change, learning from diverse experiences.

Get to know Magnus Jern:
Founder/co-founder of 7 companies, including 4 successful exits. Pioneer and thought leader in mobile apps, clean water technology, innovation and human centric design. Currently, fully involved in the mission of TAPP Water to reduce human impact on the planet by providing clean, tasty tap water to everyone in affordable and sustainable ways. My previous startup Golden Gekko became the leading mobile app developer in the world within 5 years from its inception. We continue to drive the mobile transformation journey at DMI (new owner) combining human-centric design with modern IT. Infrequent speaker at conferences around the world, including Mobile World Congress. Like: Understanding problems and working with experts to solve, implement and see the results
Don't like: Talk without action
Motto: Let's get things done!
https://www.linkedin.com/in/magnusjern/

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

We kick off this new season with not only new guests but also a new co-host, Anke Huiskes. A startup operator and angel investor building NP-Hard Ventures, an early-stage VC fund investing in product-obsessed founders, creating the building blocks of tomorrow. 

In this episode Rudo and Esther shed light on Th3rd's innovative journey. Starting with the creation of the website Human Alloy, which generated high-quality 3D models that attracted big brands like Adidas and Nike. As 3D models and augmented reality gained popularity, Th3rd shifted their focus to creating digital 3D models of products for marketing purposes. Brands were seeking a full surface solution, which initially posed a challenge for Th3rd.

The journey to the acquisition was not without its share of setbacks and nerve-wracking moments. Join our hosts and guests as they reveal the stress and challenges faced leading up to the deal, including the loss of assignments and the impact of the pandemic. They reflect on the significance of signing the contract and the gradual release of stress that followed. 

The acquisition has brought both excitement and pride to Th3rd's team as they become one of the standards for 3D asset creation worldwide. Discover how having a big company like Snapchat as a backer gives them confidence and simplifies working with prominent brands.

Want to know more about our guest?

Rudo Bisschop
Esther Bisschop
Th3rd

Remember, our podcast is available on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe and share with your fellow podcast enthusiasts.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

Anton’s journey is remarkable; from writing his first software at age 14 and becoming a programming finalist at 17, to founding his first company at 21 and successfully selling it. This episode delves into his business development strategies, the significance of recurring revenue, and crucial financial metrics like EBITDA.

We will also explore Anton's personal development, his experience with venture capital and private equity, and the lessons learned from managing partnerships and preparing for an exit. Additionally, Anton shares insights on balancing professional and personal life and offers advice for aspiring entrepreneurs.

Tune in for a comprehensive look into Anton Loeffen’s entrepreneurial journey, filled with valuable insights and lessons. Don’t forget to subscribe and provide feedback. 

We are discussing:

• 00:00 Founder shows dedication, passion, and deep involvement.
• 03:35 Interest in programming sparked by TV series.
• 06:38 Learning communication, marketing, sales; consulting banks successfully.
• 10:06 Split company; hired co-founder; later separated.
• 12:43 Learn from mistakes; trust and value your team.
• 15:55 Respected feedback prompted management improvement through learning.
• 19:27 Bootstrapped initially, funded by software earnings and consulting.
• 24:15 Angels were hands-off but sometimes frustratingly repetitive.
• 27:40 Exited investors, considered growth or personal exit strategy.
• 30:45 41 interested parties narrowed to 3 finalists, negotiated exit.
• 34:25 EBITDA is crucial for venture capital success.
• 37:59 McKinsey and Holland Capital managed preparation process.
• 40:47 Escrow valued at $330 million via SaaS multiple.
• 45:26 Hire top talent; ensure strong, buyable strategy.
• 47:29 Regretted work-life balance, improved, now more relaxed.
• 50:28 Subscribe, feedback welcomed, join next episode.

More about Anton Loeffen:
Anton Loeffen's interest in programming began during his school years, sparked by the TV series "Wizkids," which dealt with artificial intelligence. Intrigued by the idea of creating virtual reality friends, he asked his parents for a computer and began learning to code. This newfound passion allowed him to see the potential of software in creating something from nothing. Anton went on to develop software for various companies and even sold his first software to banks, marking the start of a successful tech career.
You can connect with him though LinkedIn

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode, hosts Johan and Anke dive into the intriguing journey of Ferdinand Goetzen and his company Reveall. Ferdinand discusses the rapid growth, acquisition challenges, and strategic pivots that shaped the company over a short two-year period. From acquiring initial technology to adapting amid market volatility and eventually securing an acquisition, Ferdinand shares valuable insights on the dynamics of startup growth, fundraising difficulties, and the critical role of transparency and team morale in navigating these challenges. This episode offers a comprehensive look at the complexities of entrepreneurship and the importance of strategic decision-making in the path to a successful exit.

This is where we talk about:

00:00 Introduction and Key Takeaways

01:34 Starting Reveall: The Unique Journey

02:48 Building the Customer Insights Platform

05:27 Challenges and Realizations

14:40 Fundraising and Market Dynamics

18:45 Lessons Learned and Future Recommendations

26:37 Reflecting on Early Decisions

27:48 Facing Financial Realities

28:47 Pivots and Market Challenges

31:25 The AI Insight Generation Pivot

33:11 Exploring Acquisition Options

34:49 Negotiating the Deal

37:05 Team Transparency and Transition

45:39 Launching a New Venture

48:20 Final Thoughts and Farewell 

Want to know Ferdinand Goetzen better:
Ferdinand Goetzen is a Founding Partner of The Growth Syndicate where he’s aiming to build the go-to brand for b2b rounds and professional looking to unlock scalable growth. He is the former CEO and Co-Founder of Reveall (acquired by NEXT) - a platform that allowed product teams to better prioritize what to build next with the help of customer insights. Previously, he was the Director of Growth at (3D) Hubs and the Chief Growth Officer at Recruitee (both exited in 2021). He is passionate about customer-led products and growth and is regularly featured at leading events and podcasts. He has helped countless companies, from the likes of PipeDrive to KLM, develop and implement strategies for growth.
Connect with him on LinkedIn

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Please follow our podcast page on LinkedIn, you will now first when a new episode is coming.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode from "The Big Exit Show" we have the privilege of speaking with Marcus Laube, a true paragon of business acumen and perseverance. His is a journey from salvaging a company on the brink of collapse to steering it towards a prosperous and strategic acquisition.
Marcus' story begins with a bold decision to buy out a bankrupt company, armed only with resourcefulness and an unwavering conviction in the obsolescence of paper invoices. From the modest initial financing through the sale of second-hand furniture to its impressive turnaround and Nordic acquisition, Marcus's tenure laid the groundwork for a new venture, conceived in the shadow of the financial downturn and subsequent market adversities.

We explore the network effect that was integral to the company's success, weaving a tale of how connecting a multitude of smaller suppliers catapulted to significant business growth. Beyond business strategies and financial details, we delve into the personal dimensions of Marcus’s experiences. Navigating the complexities of business relationships that bleed into personal interactions, handling the emotional weight of parting with a business nurtured for 25 years, and the strategic contemplation that led to Marcus’s final exit.

We invite you into this comprehensive discussion that celebrates entrepreneurial victory and confronts the arduous challenges and profound emotional investment that come with a life dedicated to innovation and leadership. Thank you for joining us on The Big Exit show, where we navigate the complexities of exits, transitions, and the sheer grit it takes to make it to the top in the tech industry. Let's begin.

We will talk about:

• 00:00 Obsession with market timing leads to success.
• 04:33 Pioneered electronic invoicing before it was common.
• 07:22 Investment refusal led to personal buyout and restart.
• 11:37 Market advanced, early days for e-invoicing, challenges.
• 15:16 Financial crisis drove e-invoicing with large buyers.
• 18:24 Focus on large buyers, diverse portfolio gained. Missed geographic expansion opportunity.
• 20:49 Seeking long-term investors, avoiding reliance on venture capital.
• 24:50 Board of directors, friends and family, crucial.
• 27:46 Reflection on age, investment, and business decision.
• 31:51 Detailed discussions and due diligence were exhausting.
• 34:31 Realizing the need to let go. Massive company transition with uncertainty for employees.
• 37:37 Minimal celebration, focused on work and family.
• 39:25 Transition from CEO to management, positive cooperation.
• 43:46 Discussed multiple aspects of geographical leadership challenges.
• 46:11 Impressed by Mark's resilient entrepreneurial journey

Get to know Marcus better:
Marcus is an entrepreneurial pioneer who had the foresight to delve into the digital realm just as the internet was blossoming. His journey began shortly after his studies, when he secured his first job at Lufthansa in the late 1990s. Fascinated by the new technological frontier, Marcus contemplated the potential uses of the burgeoning World Wide Web for established companies like Lufthansa. This early experience sowed the seeds for his first venture, Seals, an invoicing company he launched in 1999, right at the dawn of the internet era. With this initial foray, Marcus positioned himself at the forefront of internet-based business solutions, showcasing his innovative spirit and his knack for recognizing and capitalizing on emerging technologies.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this short story from The Big Exit Show you hear entrepreneur Emma Tracy who sold her company Honeypot to XING about starting in the tech world without a tech background. If you want to hear the entire story of Emma, you can listen to the third episode of The Big Exit Show. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Bernd Gross who founded IoT-platform Cumulocity in 2010 in Düsseldorf. He sold the company nine years later to tech giant Software AG for an undisclosed amount - but the mathematical wizards of Peak Capital will do an informed valuation of the deal at the end of the episode. You will also learn: 

• How a smaller company can compete with large scale competitors like Azure and AWS
• Why you need to focus as a startup to be credible to end customers
• Why you need a M&A advisor when selling a company.

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Geert Jan Smits who sold his design furniture e-commerce company Flinders in 2021 to the Danish Nine United. You will learn:

• How to get multiple potential buyers for a company. 
• Why Geert Jan did all of the negotiations himself. 
• When to focus: opening a store in China was not a profitable business. 

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the route towards making a successful exit.

In this audio snippet of The Big Exit Show by Peak, Geert-Jan Smits answers what the main points of discussion were while raising money for Flinders from Peak. To listen to the whole story of Geert-Jan, you can visit the first episode of The Big Exit Show. 

Welcome to another episode of The Big Exit Show, where we delve deep into the heart-stopping world of entrepreneurship and the bittersweet symphony of company sales. We have an absolutely thrilled to have an exceptional entrepreneur, a visionary who turned a family legacy into an international sensation—Xaviera Plooij, the force behind The Wonder Weeks.

Xaviera's journey is nothing short of a rollercoaster, from rebranding her parents' book to creating a cutting-edge app that revolutionized parenting support worldwide. She's faced the challenges of a growing business head-on, learning to manage everything from print-on-demand hurdles to realizing when it was time to let go for the company to reach new heights. Xaviera will share the emotionally charged story of how her personal circumstances nudged her towards considering an acquisition and the swift, determined steps she took towards sealing the deal—all on her terms.

From understanding the value of pain in the growth process to embracing her competitive and intuitive edge, Xaviera's narrative is a remarkable testimony to the entrepreneurial spirit. So, listeners, buckle up as we dive into the high-stakes game of business acquisitions, uncovering the strategies, the emotional rollercoaster, and the wisdom that comes with selling your life's work. This is Selling The Wonder Weeks with Xaviera Plooij.

  We will talk about: 

• 00:00 Innovative, competitive, and intuitive businesswoman excels.
• 06:24 Rebranded, inspired by TED, launched early App.
• 07:32 Early success with first phones, app's global impact.
• 12:09 Navigating between global perspectives and scientific evidence.
• 15:56 Pain is the start of growth opportunity.
• 20:14 Rebuilding Sevira, embracing femininity after exit.
• 22:05 Early struggles shaped dream of better life.
• 24:08 Dispute over collaboration and management decision-making.
• 30:21 Competition over European author rights and publication.
• 32:13 Success in print on demand and distribution.
• 34:44 Surprising, but you create your destiny actively.
• 38:29 Confidently pursuing my unique business vision and terms.
• 41:12 Mobile app revenue estimated at 24 million.
• 43:53 Assess carefully before selling your company.

Get to know Xaviera Plooij better:
Xaviera is a bestselling author, serial entrepreneur and professional bon vivant. Her big break was the app 'The Wonder Weeks' which was the world's best-selling app for 10 years in a row. As a strategy, she was on the advisory board of several multinationals. Her two P's: that of Pijn (it's nice, that's where you grow!) and Pipi (never lose the little child in you, that's where the creativity lies!) are her mottos. Nowadays she is committed to making the world more beautiful… with a sparkle of life!

Connect on LinkedIn
The Wonder Weeks

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Olaf Molenveld who sold his scaleup Vamp to one of the world's most popular CI/CD platforms - CircleCI. You will learn: 

• When to pivot your initial business idea
• How serendipity works, even when exiting a company
• What to do when you found a dream partnership for your company

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Dr. Gero Decker who sold his Berlin-based software firm for business process automation Signavio to technology giant SAP. In this episode you will learn: 

• How Signavio got big brand companies to sign on, even as a small startup
• The strategy of Signavio to conquer the US
• How to ask for the right price during negotiations
• And of course... the amount of the mega-exit

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Tuomas Toivonen who sold his Finnish neobank Holvi to the Spanish multinational BBVA, only to reacquire it 2021. In this episode you will learn: 

• What it is like to sell a company to a multinational and work as a subsidiary 
• Why the company decided to quit its activities in the UK and focus on other markets
• How Holvi had to let go of some staff to be more cost-effective, but made sure they all found new jobs
• And of course... our estimation for how much Tuomas sold Holvi and for how much he reacquired it

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show, hosts Johan and Anke sit down with Robin Haak, a seasoned entrepreneur and investor, to delve into the fascinating journey of his startup, Jobspotting. Launched over a decade ago with three co-founders, Jobspotting was at the forefront of AI-driven job matching, a concept ahead of its time. Robin shares the challenges and triumphs of navigating the VC landscape in Berlin when there were just a handful of venture capitalists and explains how they adapted to the evolving market. As a growth investor and founder of Robin Capital, Robin offers invaluable insights into structuring deals, performing due diligence, and the dynamics of exiting a company. Tune in to learn from Robin's rich experience and discover strategic approaches to building and successfully exiting a tech company.

This is what we discuss:
00:00 Introduction to the Big Exit Show
01:00 The Journey of JobSpotting
05:00 Scaling JobSpotting Internationally
11:02 Challenges in Growth and Funding
17:02 Deciding to Exit JobSpotting
23:08 Navigating the Exit Process
28:23 The Importance of Timing in Business
29:09 Navigating the Acquisition Process
30:53 Due Diligence and Team Dynamics
34:14 Lessons from the Exit Process
36:11 Final Offer and Human Connection
40:24 Valuation Insights and Strategic Fit
42:43 Trust and Due Diligence in Acquisitions
49:06 Reflections on the Acquisition Journey
51:34 Introducing Robin Capital and Future Aspirations

Want to know more about Robin Haak:
Robin Haak is a co-founder of Jobspotting, an innovative job discovery platform. He teamed up with three technically skilled co-founders, who collectively spent 20 years at Google and were among its first hundred employees in Europe. One of them, Hassam, hailing from Lund, Sweden with Iranian heritage, moved to Ireland and later to Berlin after marrying a German woman. Hassam's personal challenge of finding jobs in Berlin became the impetus for creating Jobspotting, underscoring the idea that personal obstacles can lead to groundbreaking solutions. Robin's collaboration with a diverse team highlights his knack for turning challenges into opportunities in the tech world.
You can find him on LinkedIn:  Aage Reerslev or on his site: Robin Capital 

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak and NP-Hard. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website. Want to know more about NP-Hard? Have a look at our website.

Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Stian Rustad who founded the Norwegian ERP cloud solution 24SevenOffice in 1997. Rustad, who currently lives with his family in Bali, took his company public twice. You will learn: 

• How to take a SaaS-scaleup public to the stock exchange to raise funds
• How to choose the right exchange
• When to hire a full time ceo, so a founder can focus on other tasks such as internationalisation

In The Big Exit Show our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

The Big Exit Show is an initiative by Peak. Peak invests in early-stage SaaS, marketplace, and platform companies ran by kick-ass teams. Want to know more about Peak and the ventures we back? Check out our website or send us a message! Feedback for our podcast or want to be featured on our show? Please reach out at podcast@peak.capital. 

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Emma Tracey who sold her job platform for developers Honeypot in 2019 to the publicly listed XING. You will learn: 

• When you need an NDA in the process. 
• Why exiting a company takes a lot of time. 
• How they celebrated the exit with their staff. 

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Jochem Wijnands who sold his magazine-app startup PRSS to Apple. You will learn: 

• Why Jochem sold his company within two years to Apple
• How to negotiate with a technology giant
• What it is like to work at a company after selling it

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.

In this episode of The Big Exit Show we talk to Thijs Verheul and Sjuul Berden who sold their online marketplace for vintage fashion United Wardrobe to Lithuanian competitor Vinted. In this podcast you will learn:  

• Why the company's bet to conquer France did not pay off
• When Thijs said "we will cruch you" in a conversation with a competitor
• Why a previous exit deal of United Wardrobe got cancelled at the last moment
• The dynamics between multiple founders and how to decide who will be ceo

In The Big Exit Show by Peak our hosts Johan van Mil and Remy Gieling talk to tech entrepreneurs about scaling their companies and the lessons and pitfalls of a successful exit.