The BETWEEN Podcast (Matt Mattson)

"Our world is hurting and broken. People are divided, disconnected, and lonely. It’s time for a fresh reimagining of what it means to be the Church in our day." -New Wine Collective Website This new episode of The BETWEEN Podcast (the first that includes a video version!) features host Matt Mattson cherishing a sacred conversation with Eugene Kim, founder of New Wine Collective.

Eugene is an ordained minister with over 25 years of experience in local church ministry. For 17 years, he played a pivotal role in growing a church from its early stages into a thriving, multi-location community. However, recognizing the need to rethink traditional models, Eugene discerned that it was time to step beyond the familiar and reimagine what it means to be and do “church" from the ground up. He left his pastoral role in 2020 to establish New Wine Collective—a church innovation think-tank and R&D lab.
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Since founding New Wine Collective, Eugene has been learning, ideating, and convening conversations about the evolving spiritual landscape and future of the Church. He is New Wine Collective's chief architect and synthesizer of ideas but still a pastor at heart who loves walking alongside people in their journeys. He is passionate about systemic change and designing new ways of being the Church that can help heal the world and give everyone a place to belong.
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Eugene grew up in Queens, NY and Seoul, Korea, and now lives in the Boston area. He loves hanging out with his three children, enjoying good food, cooking, and watching Korean dramas with his wife.
Learn more about New Wine Collective: https://www.newwinecollective.org/

Whoa. Near Death Experiences is new territory for our podcast, and what a cool conversation this was. Host Matt Mattson shares a sacred conversation with Rev. Stephanie Chase Bradbury about the moments when people seem to transcend beyond our earthly realm and live to tell about it.

The Reverend Stephanie Chase Bradbury is a graduate of Yale Divinity School, ordained an Episcopal Priest for 28 years, and serves a congregation in Massachusetts. She is a wife, mother, and grandmother. She is drawn to the thin shimmer between matter and spirit, and how life in this world is affected by our connection to the next. She believes that every human being, every part of the cosmos, is profoundly precious to God. No exceptions. To that end she has a newsletter entitled “Jesus and the Enchanted Cosmos.” She also founded and hosts two support groups for Christians who have had Near-Death and other Transcendent Experiences, and regularly speaks at the conferences of the International Association for Near-Death Studies. In 2022 she published a book of sermons entitled, “Holy Incarnation! God Said What?” While grounded in the Christian tradition, Stephanie looks for truth beyond as well.

• Rev. Stephanie's Substack: https://revstephaniecbradbury.substack.com/

On this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast, host Matt Mattson has a wonderfully nuanced discussion with guest Catherine Flores. Catherine is a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And her one "Mormon claim to fame" is that her grandfather was the first 'COSMO THE COUGAR' mascot at BYU... which we're pretty sure makes her LDS royalty.

Catherine is a regular supporter of the content we post on BETWEEN's social media, and we were just so struck by the way she talks about her faith, her doubts, her deep questioning, her moments of spiritual unraveling, and ultimately... her hope and courage as she seems to be finding a way to hold her faith amidst all her uncertainty. Catherine is the mother of four beautiful and feral children, she's the wife of an amazing and humble man who balances out her "(sometimes) unreasonable expectations and impatience", and she was "born of goodly parents" which, if you didn't know, is a phrase that is really important in the LDS faith.

Find Catherine on Instagram at @flowers.flores.cg and on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/catherine.gallego.3

• Be sure to visit BETWEEN on the internet at https://between.church (SIGN UP FOR OUR EMAIL LIST!)
• Watch our weekly 5(ish)-Minute Interfaith sermons at https://www.youtube.com/@betweenchurch
• Follow us on Instagram and Threads www.instagram.com/between.church
• Join our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/betweenchurch

We never ask for money. We welcome believers (and unbelievers) of all kinds. Thanks for listening, BETWEENERS!

Reverend Bethany Peerbolte is known by literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people... maybe MILLIONS OF PEOPLE on social media... especially TikTok... as RevBethany... RevBethany is a loving, affirming, celebrating representative of Christianity who lifts up everyone who encounters her content... especially folks who have been pushed to the margins by organized religion in the past.

RevBethany finds these wonderfully creative ways to bring scripture to life... and to connect the message of the gospel to the headlines of the week.

She is a fearless voice on TikTok, on Instagram, and on YouTube where she loves not only sharing empowering messages, but also hearing the stories of so many folks out there in the world... and helping them maintain their relationship with God despite how the people in a church have treated them.

Bethany also runs a ministry called Our Tapestry... which is a progressive digital community that serves folks in the theological deserts of society. Our Tapestry ​helps people actively declutter their faith, it works for justice, and it is a diverse and welcoming community of encouragement.

On the day Roe vs. Wade was overturned, Matt Mattson (the host of The BETWEEN Podcast) was in Washington, D.C. and he experienced two very different kinds of protests. One outside the capitol building. And one inside a Shabbat Dinner. Listen to this story and think about what YOUR faith has taught you about the kind of person you want to be.

Bonus episodes like this one are just a small snacks to enjoy BETWEEN the main episodes of The BETWEEN Podcast. Learn more about BETWEEN at https://between.church/

Our guest on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast is Barbara Ann Jacques, Ph.D.

Barbara is a graceful disruptor. And this episode is a magnificent spiritual journey inward so that we all might be better at outwardly connecting. You're going to absolutely love this episode.

For years, Barbara Ann Jacques, PhD led a secret life, keeping her spiritual practices separate from her professional/scientific side. But in 2014, she went into bone marrow failure. It was a dark time, losing everything she had outwardly defined herself by. She underwent a bone marrow transplant, and today her donors' DNA flows through her veins. Although not immediately apparent, this transformative experience showed her that true integration was possible — not just in her biology, but in her life as a whole. To live authentically and drive change in today's world, one must first integrate their true self, not keep it hidden in the shadows, while merely operating from ego. Today, she is an educator, speaker, intuitive, and international best-selling co-author. As the founder of Disrupting Gracefully, she creates coaching experiences that weave together scientific and spiritual practices, to support clients in embracing their inner wisdom, challenge conventions, and awaken their innate creativity. Her mission is clear: to inspire and empower those ready to disrupt old paradigm approaches by Leading with Grace and Disrupting with Purpose so they may usher in new paradigms of authentic leadership, growth, and success. Learn all about Barbara at https://www.disruptinggracefully.com/

This episode features host Matt Mattson and special guest, Nicole Mason. This slightly longer and deeply sacred episode is somehow about the future of faith communities, the heavy weight carried by so many women within the context of religious institutions, innovative church life, and really so much more...

Nicole Mason is a church planter. She is a writer. She is an innovative Christian. She spent 7 years in vocational ministry within complementarian spaces -- and then left that world. She now leads a non-traditional, non-Sunday-centric church community in Houston, Texas.

• Read Nicole's blog here: https://nicolemason.substack.com
• Follow Nicole on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_nicolemason_/
• Follow Nicole on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@_nicolemason_

Grace E. Kelley is a follower of Jesus, a wife, and mother of five, including a set of boy/girl twins. She graduated from Colorado State University with a Bachelors in Creative Writing and a double emphasis in Poetry and Creative Non-Fiction. She writes poetry and stories — both fictional and non-fictional, and occasionally enjoys the opportunity to speak. She is also a farmer, a foodie, an unrepentant mug addict, and a deep believer that incredible beauty can come from the compost heap.

Among her writing credits you can find her debut poetry collection titled, "as the Sparrow flies." And her newest collection that is soon to be released... in fact it might be out by the time you're listening to this episode... it's called, "Daughter of Breath."

What is a mystic? Can you be one? Is contemplative prayer something that might bring us closer to each other? Can a dirty diaper be a sacred thing?

Keith Kristich joins host Matt Mattson on this very contemplative episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Keith Kristich is a writer, a retreat leader, a contemplative, a mystic... and the founder of the online contemplative community called Closer Than Breath. His mission is to help people unlearn rigid religion, reimagine what is divine, and see God everywhere.

Keith's work revolves around:

• deconstructing rigid religion
• practical mysticism and
• contemplative practice

Specifically, he teaches centering prayer as a way of embodying the way of unknowing and surrender.

He also makes some really cool digital art that helps people understand the divine in new and beautiful ways.

Subscribe to his newsletter here: https://keithkristich.com/newsletter/

• Keith's website: https://keithkristich.com/
• Closer Than Breath: https://closerthanbreath.com/
• Follow Keith on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithkristich/
• Closer Than Breath on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CloserThanBreath/

Our guest on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast is Paula Stephens. Paula is many things... Here are five lines from her bio...

1. Paula Stephens is an ordained Chaplain in the Zen Buddhist tradition.
2. She wrote a book a while back and spent a significant part of her career helping parents overcome the unspeakable grief of losing a child.
3. She is a Gold Star Mom. Wife of an SVU detective. Mom to a firefighter. And Mom to two other boys who are incredible humans!
4. She's also a Nationally Recognized Speaker on Resilience & Healing from Adversity.
5. And she spends a large amount of her time now serving people in the helping professions... where she helps the helpers overcome compassion fatigue and burnout.

This episode covers the fundamentals of Zen Buddhism, cups of coffee potentially falling off the roofs of cars, death, grief, resilience, love, and our desperate longing to be seen. You're going to love it.

You can learn all about Paula at https://www.paulastephens.net/

Join host Matt Mattson and special guest Pastor Justin Spurlock as they take a deep dive into the "unofficial sacrament of conversation." They discuss whether or not the "space between people" is actually sacred, they explore the importance of BELONGING in-depth, they talk about the challenges of faith-related language, and they share stories in an authentic exchange of real sacred conversation. Learn more about BETWEEN at ⁠our website⁠ and subscribe to our ⁠YouTube channel⁠. Don't forget to ⁠follow our Instagram account⁠ for daily prayers and fun content.

Lizz Enns Petters and Esther Joy Goetz are our special guests on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Lizz and Esther host The Deconstructing Mamas Podcast and... If you are trying to figure out how to navigate the tricky tightrope of parenting while you have questions, doubts and wonderings about your spiritual journey, their podcast is for you (and so is this episode of our podcast!)

Lizz Enns Petters is a passionate voice for so many people out there... she encourages her readers and listeners around the themes of MOTHERHOOD, MENTAL HEALTH, and MINDFUL CHRISTIANITY. Her father is biblical scholar Pete Enns and she's a chip off the old block (as they say). Lizz is deeply passionate about creating a space for spiritual misfits so that they can find a sense of safety and belonging on their faith journeys... and she's especially passionate about empowering young moms and parents who are doing the hard work of healing themselves while raising kids. Lizz has young kids of her own and so much of her fantastic online content is about the exciting, beautiful, sometimes difficult, and often hilarious life of a mother with little ones... Lizz was diagnosed with anxiety, OCD, and a panic disorder at a young age and those diagnoses have been a big part of her life.

Esther Joy Goetz was born and grew up as an evangelical missionary kid ... Esther has written that her parents' mission was to keep the people they encountered in war-torn Ethiopia from going to Hell. She lives in rural New Jersey and loves the outdoors. Esther's kids are grown now and she has a grandson and a granddaughter on the way. She has a fierce passion for helping people uncover what's been hidden, discover what's been lost, recover what's been wounded in their lives, and know and love their truest and most healed selves. She does this through her books, her spiritual direction practice, the podcast that she shares with Lizz, and hopefully just by being a sanctuary (a safe place) for any and all who come across her path.

LEARN MORE

• Deconstructing Mamas Website
• Lizz Enns Petter's Website
• Esther Joy Goetz's Website
• Lizz's BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute Sermon
• Esther's BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute Sermon

When Paul wrote about being "DEEP-SPIRITED FRIENDS," well, we aren't exactly sure what he meant. But he might have been hinting at our longing for the full colors of our soul to be seen. He might have been encouraging us to feel all of the humanness that the people around us are feeling. Alongside them. Even if only for a while.

This BONUS episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson sharing a story about a friend who helped him understand the technicolor potential that lies inside each of us. And the fine, fuzzy line between emotions and our spirit.

• Learn more about BETWEEN at https://between.church/ (please consider signing up for our free email list)
• Follow BETWEEN on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/between.church/
• Join the private BETWEEN community on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/betweenchurch
• Watch our weekly BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute Sermon at https://www.youtube.com/@betweenchurch

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a gentle and beautiful conversation between host Matt Mattson and our special guest, Sarah Westfall.

What if BELONGING isn't something to attain, but instead is someone to become?

How could faith offer a kind of belonging that could transform us all into "people of welcome"?

Sarah E. Westfall is a writer, speaker, and host of the Human Together podcast. She has a brand new book out titled, The Way of Belonging: Reimagining Who We Are and How We Relate. Her previous work includes serving as director of community for online writing groups and as a student development professional on college campuses. She has been published in RELEVANT, Fathom Mag, and (in)courage. Sarah lives in Indiana with her husband, Ben, and four sons.

• Sarah's website: https://www.sarahewestfall.com/
• Sarah's Substack: https://sarahewestfall.substack.com/
• Sarah's podcast: https://www.sarahewestfall.com/human-together
• Sarah's social media: https://www.instagram.com/sarah_westfall/

Our special guest Rev. Lindsey Turner (They/Them) joins host Matt Mattson on this celestial episode of The BETWEEN Podcast.

In 2018, Reverend Lindsey Turner who was a pastor at a church... was forced out of that church. In one swift and painful moment, Lindsey lost the house, career, and community they had built. After learning that Lindsey had offered a home to a young adult who was both trans and housing-insecure, a small group of church leaders demanded Lindsey's resignation in secret.

Lindsey, who is also known as Bad Pastor, is a consulting astrologer, community minister, and ritual arts specialist. They work at the intersections of liberationist theology, traditional astrology, and time magic. Lindsey offers one-on-one consultations and spiritual accompaniment, teaches theology-astrology classes, guides group development workshops, and hosts an online community called "Starpals," for people who find themselves at the intersections of queer/trans and Christian/post-Christian identity. Lindsey also travels around the country, speaking on ritual theory and praxis for chaplains and other faith leaders.

Learn all about Lindsey at https://badpastor.me/ and follow Lindsey on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/bad.pastor/

Today's guest on The BETWEEN Podcast is Rev. Nathan Albert (he/him). Nathan is a professional actor turned university chaplain, author, and religious pluralist. He seeks to be a disruptor of the dominant, a multifaceted theologian, a champion of religious diversity, and a multiple religious participant who promotes interreligious learning. As a chaplain, his focus is interreligious learning, spiritual engagement, and religious difference.

He earned a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Musical Theatre Performance, a Master of Divinity, a Certificate in Spiritual Transformation, and is currently working on a Doctor of Ministry in Interreligious Chaplaincy focusing his research on the ways chaplains disrupt Christian hegemony and supremacy.

Nathan is also an avid meditator, lover of cities, maintains a plant-based diet, and is a passionate user of the Oxford comma.

Nathan is the author of the book, EMBRACING LOVE: My Journey To Hugging a Man in His Underwear. At the Chicago Pride Parade, Nathan Albert stood with his friends bearing signs of apology on behalf of Christians who had failed to represent Christ’s love to the LGBTQ community. Little did he know that millions around the world would soon see him captured in an iconic viral photograph and read his blog about hugging a man in his underwear.

Embracing Love is the story behind that photograph, the story of a musical theatre actor turned pastor whose deep desire is that the Gospel be seen, heard, and felt by the LGBTQ community in every tangible way. Through personal stories, pastoral encounters, a gospel-centric church model, a comparison of approaches to the biblical texts on homosexuality, and a fervent call to unity among Christians, Nathan Albert invites readers past the intimidation of controversy for the sake of embracing people with the love of the Divine.

Find Nathan online at https://nathanalbert.com/

We're so excited to feature Sarah Bessey, author of Field Notes For The Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast.

Listen in as host Matt Mattson and Sarah Bessey discuss faith deconstruction, reconstruction, and things that are helpful if you find yourself wandering out there in a spiritual wilderness.

Sarah Bessey is the author of the popular and critically acclaimed books, Out of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving Faith, Jesus Feminist, and Miracles and Other Reasonable Things. This episode focuses on her newest book, Field Notes for The Wilderness. She is a sought-after speaker at churches, conferences, and universities all around the world. Sarah is also the cocurator and cohost of the annual Evolving Faith Conference and she serves as President of the Board for Heartline Ministries in Haiti. Sarah lives in Calgary with her husband and their children. Visit Sarah's website (buy her books, find her social media accounts, and sign up for her Substack newsletter!)

Join the Evolving Faith Community (discussed in this episode)

In this episode, regular host Matt Mattson is joined by Dani Hillyer (in her debut on the show as an occasional co-host). Their sacred conversation is a deep dive into the idea of "worship" and whether it can be something we do in every moment.

Tune in to receive a spiritual invitation, some new perspectives, and an exploration of how your faith might intersect in new ways with the ways you connect with the humans around you.

Rev. Dani Hillyer brings vibrant passion and deep commitment to all of her work -- while she is a co-creator of BETWEEN, her primary professional roles have her serving two local churches in the Denver area as a pastor with a specialization in innovative ministries. ,Her journey into pastoral ministry was sparked during her tenure as a Children and Youth Director. Equipped with an M.Div. from McCormick Theological Seminary and a B.S. in Business Management from Grand Canyon University, her blend of theological depth and practical acumen enriches her ministry. Native to Colorado, Pastor Dani and her family embrace the state's beauty through hiking, paddle boarding, skiing, camping, and exploring mountain towns. Her heart is devoted to cultivating spiritually vibrant environments within families and communities. With dynamic leadership and unwavering dedication, she eagerly looks forward to journeying alongside all she has the honor to pastor, guiding them in deepening their faith and impacting their community.

Paul Fahey, founder of Pope Francis Generation joins host Matt Mattson for a deep dive into Catholicism, human connection, Pope Francis, systemic abuse, and paradox. This conversation was playful and intellectual... serious and fun... really deep and just skimming the surface of some huge ideas.

Paul Fahey is a lay catechist, a student of counseling, a writer, a speaker, and founder of Pope Francis Generation which is a newsletter, social media presence, podcast, and online platform about the impact of Pope Francis on today's Catholic (and larger) world. He writes and speaks about what he loves: I love: the Kerygma, the Sacraments, Catholic Social Teaching, and Pope Francis. Paul lives in Michigan with his wife Kristina (check out her art here) and their five children.

Mentioned in the episode:

• Fratelli Tutti (Paul's take on it)

Learn more about Paul's work with Pope Francis Generation here: https://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/about

Welcome to the second season of The BETWEEN Podcast. This short episode features host Matt Mattson encouraging us all to not get sucked into the vortex, the mud pit, the rage machine. We are called to be peacemakers at a time like this. We are called to move our attention away from abstraction and into the up-close-and-personal.

If you're new to the podcast, we focus on the intersection of FAITH (your faith) and HUMAN CONNECTION. We are radically inclusive of all points of view. We are wildly curious and perpetually uncertain. We believe the space between us is the most sacred space on earth.

Learn more about BETWEEN (join our email list) at https://between.church/

Subscribe to our Substack at https://matthewmattson.substack.com/

Learn more about our host Matt Mattson at https://matthew-mattson.com/

This episode features Kristen Lavalley (author of "Even If He Doesn't") and host Matt Mattson diving deeply into the experiences of trauma and suffering that mark so much of our life path. Our guest has experienced so much -- a major faith crisis, witnessing a murder, the loss of a pregnancy, a traumatic birth experience with twins, and yet finds faith even when God doesn't show up in perfect ways.

Kristen LaValley is a gifted writer whose words provide a refreshing perspective on faith and spirituality. Her writing resonates with those who carry tensions in their faith, offering insights that intersect doubt and belief, hope and suffering, beauty and heartache, complexity and simplicity. With a deep love for the Christian faith and a willingness to explore its complexities, Kristen's writing offers nuanced conversations that challenge readers to think deeply and wrestle with important questions.

Kristen lives in Massachusetts with her husband Zach and
their five children - Jonah, Emery, Anna, Chloe and Lydia.

• Website: https://www.kristenlavalley.com/
• Substack: https://kristenlavalley.substack.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kristen.lavalley

Welcome to The BETWEEN Podcast! We are on a mission to inspire millions of people all over the globe to apply THEIR OWN beliefs to creating more moments of sacred human connection in the world. This is a little 5(ish)-Minute teaser episode of The BETWEEN Podcast, and we hope you'll subscribe so you can enjoy every episode we produce!

Learn more about BETWEEN at http://between.church (that's where you'll find info about being a guest on a future episode too!)

The space BETWEEN us is sacred.

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson diving deep into some old bible stories with Pastor Josh Scott. Josh is the lead pastor at GracePointe Church in Nashville, Tennessee, and he is also the author of "Bible Stories for Grown-Ups" and "Context: Putting Scripture In Its Place." Josh and Matt invite everyone into a warm conversation about the many different contexts that each of our faith experiences exist within.

• Learn more about Josh (and buy his books) at https://www.joshscott.co/
• Sign Up for Josh's newsletter at https://www.joshscott.online/
• Learn more about GracePointe church at https://www.gracepointe.net/

As always, sign up for the BETWEEN email list, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and find all of our social media at http://between.church

Catherine McNiel is our guest and WOW, what a powerful and sacred conversation this is about fear and faith.

Catherine's newest book is titled, Fearing Bravely: Risking Love for our Neighbors, Strangers, and Enemies. This book is an amazing mirror into which we all might look to see how much we might have been unknowingly discipled in fear instead of love.

Catherine is an author and speaker who lives in the Chicagoland area with her husband, where they care for their three kids and their enormous garden. Catherine has studied and taught Intercultural Studies and Theology, has an degree in Human Service Counseling, and is working on a Master of Divinity at North Park Theological Seminary.

She has a couple of other books that came out before Fearing Bravely.... those books are also about the intermingling of spirituality and our ordinary lives... One is titled, All Shall Be Well: Awakening to God’s Presence in His Messy, Abundant World.... and another is called Long Days of Small Things: Motherhood as a Spiritual Discipline which was an ECPA New Author finalist.

Catherine is a sought after writer and speaker; her work has been featured by numerous magazines, websites, churches, and ministries.

Find all of Catherine's amazing contributions to the world, including her books, newsletter, and links to her social media at https://catherinemcniel.com/

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host, Matt Mattson, joyfully getting to talk with one of his favorite authors, Shannan Martin. The episode explores ordinary places, what it means to be a neighbor, how to survive a politically challenging year, the sacred gift of awkwardness and more.

Shannan Martin, author of Start With Hello, The Ministry of Ordinary Places , and Falling Free, is a speaker and writer who found her voice in the country and her story in the city. Shannan works as a cook at The Window, a local nonprofit dedicated to feeding its community. She, her jail-chaplain husband, and their kids live as grateful neighbors in Goshen, Indiana.

• Start with Hello by Shannan Martin
• Falling Free by Shannan Martin
• The Ministry of Ordinary Places by Shannan Martin
• Find Shannan on Instagram
• Subscribe to Shannan's Substack called "The Soup"

Our special guests on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast are Ashlie Sanders and Emilie Call... and these two sisters are doing something really cool... Ashlie and Emilie are the hosts of a podcast called "That's Church." They're also both members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In fact, Ashlie has a separate big social media presence... she goes by "The Nuanced Mormon."

Ashlie and Emilie's "That's Church" podcast features the two of them visiting and talking with people at different religious communities around Utah. They've visited with people all over their home state about traditions like Krishna Consciousness, Catholicism, several different flavors of Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Islam, and more.

Their mission is to build bridges between many diverse religious communities.

They're inspired by their grandparents' mixed-faith marriage. Grandma Maxine always said “there is good in all religions.” This example of love and mutual respect, inspires the hosts to reach beyond their LDS backgrounds and embrace different ideas, beliefs, and truths.

They explore how their friends and neighbors experience spirituality and define church for them.

This episode features an amazing new author, Jenai Auman having a beautiful and sacred conversation with host, Matt Mattson. Her new book, Othered is for anyone who has felt left out or pushed out of the church, Othered is your invitation to find spiritual rest and belonging in a God who loves, restores, and blesses the outcast and the marginalized.

Jenai Auman draws on her experience growing up as a biracial kid in the American South as well as working within toxic ministry environments to reveal a hopeful, trauma-informed way forward. Her book illuminates how hurt and betrayal in the church are longstanding problems that God neither sanctions nor tolerates. It offers holistic responses to the grief, anger, and trauma that come with being ostracized or oppressed by the church. And it shows how God provides shelter and provision in the midst of the wilderness. Buy the book: https://www.jenaiauman.com/otheredbook

Learn More about Jenai: https://www.jenaiauman.com/about-jenai

Subscribe to Jenai's Substack newsletter: https://jenaiauman.substack.com/

Moments of transition in our lives and relationships can be really scary. They can be really sacred too.

This short episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson offering some thoughts on this season of transition, and the transitions in our lives. This episode also serves as the official conclusion of Season 1 of the show (don't worrry... we're already working on Season 2!)

As always, listen to our show wherever you listen to podcasts, or just visit our website: https://between.church/podcast

Thanks to everyone for their support with this first season of the show! We're so grateful for the sacred connections we share with you.

Enjoy this short BONUS episode of The BETWEEN Podcast featuring host, Matt Mattson telling you the secrets of the alternate universes he has discovered (and some that he learned about from people on social media). These alternate universes are "thin places." They are places where the rules of social engagement are morphed. They are places where it is incredibly easy to feel God in the presence of others. Do you know of any alternate universes like the ones described in this episode?

Visit https://between.church/ to learn all about our global, digital, highly inclusive faith community. Follow us on social media, watch our weekly YouTube videos, and become a part of our community. Be sure to sign up for our mailing list.

MaryB Safrit is a NYC-based relationship coach, an author, the host of the Found Family podcast, and she also makes and sells some pretty fun and empowering clothing and merch. She’s also your friendly neighborhood bisexual, recovering people-pleaser, and current goblin obsessed with all things relationship-building, hospitality, spirituality, and culture. (We talk about those obsessions in this episode). This episode is a truly sacred conversation about the idea of found family, about the idea of "church" in the modern world, about the idea of singleness within the weight of marriage culture, and about the idea of hospitality as a way to think about our cultures and organizations.

Learn all about MaryB at https://www.marybsafrit.com/

What could living a monastic way of life teach us about how we're supposed to connect with each other? Is it possible to apply monastic principles to our busy, hurried, hungry, hangry lives? Paul Prins joins Matt Mattson as a guest on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Paul is a founder and Director General of Urban Monastics, and he is trying to live a simple, gracious, and integrated life.

This conversation explores the idea of monasticism, and Paul's work with Urban Monastics provides an invitation for anyone to explore what that life might be like.

More About Paul: "I’m trying to live a simple, gracious, and integrated life. I believe the way we live flows out of the deep wells. Wells that are filled with our beliefs and values. As I meditate and contemplate, these wells have deepened. Since 2004, I’ve been a minister in different contexts and countries. These have included churches, student ministries, and homeless shelters. I received a Masters of Divinity from Bethel Theological Seminary in 2012. Alongside my ministry work, I have founded and built two successful companies. Midwest Skier was founded in 1998. Fresh Vine was founded in 2007.

I enjoy teaching, preaching, writing, and creating art. My life and faith are drawn together with the monastic practices of fasting, contemplation, and prayer. They inspire me to be present with God during my days. Since 2016, I have felt God drawing me to help found Urban Monasticism."

Follow Urban Monastics on social media. Links below.

https://www.instagram.com/UrbanMonastic/

https://www.facebook.com/UrbanMonastics/

https://www.youtube.com/@urbanmonastic

https://www.tiktok.com/@urbanmonastic

https://bsky.app/profile/urbanmonastic.org

Enjoy this short bonus episode of The BETWEEN Podcast featuring your host, Matt Mattson. It's just a quick little nugget about the shrines to togetherness we've manufactured around us, and why that's so important (and how we can work to put a little more sacred connection into the middle of our normal lives).

Be sure to sign up for the BETWEEN mailing list and learn more about us at: https://between.church/join

Follow BETWEEN on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/between.church/

Watch our YouTube videos at: https://www.youtube.com/@betweenchurch

What if loneliness isn't the boogeyman we've made it out to be? What if in our pursuit of belonging we skipped self-worth and it has left us feeling inauthentic? What if God showed up in a hotel lobby, would you recognize God?

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a wonderfully sacred conversation between host Matt Mattson and our special guest, Dr. Kelly Flanagan.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan is an author, speaker, relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist. He writes regularly at drkellyflanagan.substack.com. His writing has been featured in Reader's Digest, Christianity Today, and The 5 Love Languages, and he has appeared on the TODAY Show with his daughter. Kelly’s two non-fiction books—Loveable and True Companions—both debuted as a #1 New Releases in Interpersonal Relations on Amazon. His first novel, The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell was an ECPA bestseller and has won multiple literary awards. Kelly is married to another clinical psychologist named Kelly, and they have three children who are twenty, sixteen, and fourteen years old. They live in a small town outside of Chicago.

• Kelly's website: https://drkellyflanagan.com/
• Kelly's Substack: https://drkellyflanagan.substack.com/ 
  

In this special episode of The BETWEEN Podcast, host Matt Mattson gets baptized in a coffee shop.

Baptism is an incredibly important and meaningful ritual. But the host of this podcast (and the creator of BETWEEN), Matt Mattson, simply had never experienced baptism (he explains why in the intro). What better way to explore the sacredness of simple moments of human connection than to put a holy sacramental ritual right into the middle of a very sincere and meaningful conversation between friends.

Rev. Justin Spurlock, the Senior Pastor at Grace Presbyterian Church (and a former guest on The BETWEEN Podcast - check out this episode from season 1) graciously joined Matt to conduct this beautiful ritual right in the middle of a coffee shop conversation.

Enjoy the video or just listen in to the conversation. You're invited right into the middle of this beautiful faith moment.

This new episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a sacred conversation between host Matt Mattson and author Gregory Coles, Ph.D. about his book No Longer Strangers.

Gregory Coles is a tangle of identities: born in upstate New York, raised on the Indonesian island of Java, and now working as a freelance author and scholar in Idaho's Treasure Valley. He holds a PhD in English from Penn State and has been in love with language since age 8, when he started learning his older brother’s SAT vocabulary words and reading Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

Greg’s fiction and expository writing have been published by Penguin Random House and Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. His academic research on rhetorics of marginality (how language works in society for disadvantaged groups) has appeared in College English and Rhetorica and in an edited collection from Cambridge University Press. His two memoirs, Single, Gay, Christian and No Longer Strangers, have earned awards that include a Foreword INDIES Award Finalist and an InterVarsity Press Readers' Choice Award. His newest book, a novel exploring the power of language to shape human thought, is The Limits of My World.

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In this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast, we explore the challenges of sacred connection... especially for men.

Shannon TL Kearns is a transgender man who believes in the transformative power of story. As an ordained priest, a playwright, a theologian, and a writer all of his work revolves around making meaning through story.

Shannon’s first book In the Margins: A Transgender Man’s Journey With Scripture is available now from Eerdman’s Books. He has three books forthcoming: No One Taught Me How To Be A Man: What A Trans Man’s Experience Reveals About Masculinity (Broadleaf), Come and See: An Invitation To A Radical Encounter With Jesus A Youth Devotional (Hodder Faith), Reading the Bible Through Queer Eyes (HarperOne, co-written with Brian G. Murphy). 

Shannon is a recipient of the Louisville Pastoral Study Grant for 2025/2026, the Humanitas New Voices Fellowship for 2022, a Playwrights’ Center Jerome Fellowship in 20/21 and he was a Lambda Literary Fellow for 2019 in playwriting and in 2022 for screenwriting. He was a Finnovation Fellow for 2019/2020. He is a sought after speaker on transgender issues and religion as well as a skilled facilitator of a variety of workshops. 

Shannon co-founded QueerTheology.com with Brian G. Murphy. Since its start in 2013, this work has reached more than two million people all over the world through videos, articles, and online courses and community. Their Queer Theology podcast is the longest running LGBTQ+ Christian podcast. 

Selected recognition: Winner of the ScreenCraft Pitch competition, finalist for Bull City Film Festival for his pilot Transformed. Winner of the New Hope Film Festival for best premium/tv script. He’s been a playwright in residence at the Inge House, participated in the Seven Devils’ Playwright Conference and the Great Plains Theatre Conference. He was a semi-finalist for the O’Neill and a finalist for the Blue Ink playwriting award.

Shannon’s plays include Laughing, Flexing, Dying, The Stories We Tell At The End Of The World, Body+Blood, in a stand of dying trees, Line of Sight, Twisted Deaths, The Resistance of My Skin, and Who Has Eyes To See.  

• Shannon's Website: https://www.shannontlkearns.com/

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson jumping into the "MESS" with special guest, Melissa Neeb. They discuss faith, deconstruction, parenting, mental health, addiction, and public speaking -- all within the context of building sacred moments of human connection in our lives. S

Melissa gives some powerful advice about showing up and creating "honest rooms" that could be transformative for listeners trying to bring more meaningful (and maybe even holy) connection into their lives.

You can find Melissa at the following:

Faith in The Mess ("love big, live kind")

Instagram: @faith_in_the_mess

Facebook: Faith in the Mess by Melissa Neeb

Never Empty Nest (how to mom teens)

Instagram: @never_empty_nest

Facebook: Never Empty Nest by Melissa Neeb

Christy Lynne Wood is a writer, a podcast host, and a speaker who spent 10 years of her youth in a Christian Cult. Today she hosts a podcast named after her powerful book titled, "Religious Rebels."

Growing up in the IBLP Christian cult-like culture (brought to light recently in the documentary "Shiny Happy People" featuring the Duggar Family, stars of "19 and Counting") is the topic of Christy's book. But her story and her faith has grown and evolved from those challenging childhood days. Christy says she now "walks the awkward middle way of faith." She has shed all the controlling religious baggage of her past and found a loving, gentler relationship with her Christian faith.

Connect with Christy Lynne Wood

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LetMeBeFoolish/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/christylynnewood/

Threads: https://www.threads.net/@christylynnewood

Substack: https://christylynnewood.substack.com/

Website: https://christylynnewood.com/

Religious Rebels book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/dHSLR76