Ten Cent Takes (Mike Thompson & Jessika Frazer)

Join us as Jessika takes us on a behind-the-scenes tour of the 1990s Ninja Turtle movies. Come for the stories about Jim Henson, stay for the ragging on Corey Feldman.

We will not be discussing the Michael Bay abominations.

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[00:00:00] Jessika: God, am I wheezy on my microphone right now? Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes the podcast where we serve comics knowledge on the half shell, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the righteous reader, Mike Thompson. Hello?  Mike: Hello. Jessika: Well, the purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're going to be discussing movies from a genre that is very near and dear to my heart, the Teenage Mutant Ninja [00:01:00] Turtles.Now we won’t be doing a deep dive into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise, but stay tuned for a future episode. We are going to be talking about the live action, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the nineties, the drama leading up to the making of the films, the ingenuity, and detailed involved in the filming itself, along with the casting crew and some of their recollections and anecdotes.But before we do Mike, what is a one cool thing you've read or watched lately? Mike: well, I know what we have both been watching actually. And I feel like, uh, maybe you need to start off this  conversation.  Jessika: So, yeah, cause I, I see that you have written the same thing as I, as we do have a shared file here.  Well, I watched the first few episodes of MODOK, which just came out this year and it is witty and wonderful.  Mike: I think it came out like a week ago.  Jessika: Oh, sweet. Mike: Yeah, like it's real [00:02:00] fresh.  Jessika: Well, thank you to my friend who was like, we need to watch this because you'll really enjoy it. And in fact I did. So, and now that I have my head sort of out of turtle world, I'll be able to watch a little bit more. But for those of you who haven't seen it yet, it follows a blundering Marvel villain with a big head and a super tiny body named MODOK. He flies around on this little hover in this little hover situation. It's very funny. And it follows his evil ventures and how they bleed into his family life in the suburbs, and it is produced by a variety of people. One of whom is Seth green and the show does have a very, a robot chicken vibe to it. It's done in Claymation and can get pretty violent and graphic,  in a Claymation kind of way. But I wouldn't say it's a kid show. I also got a star-studded cast Patton Oswalt is in it. Amy Garcia, Ben Schwartz -whom I loved in Parks and Rec- John Hamm, Nathan Fillion, Whoopie shows up. There's a ton of people.I'm only four episodes in out [00:03:00] of the ten, that comprise season one, but I'm super looking forward to laughing my way through the remaining six potentially tonight. Mike: I'm not going to spoil it for you, but Alan Tudyk shows up in a role where he sounds almost exactly like Joker from Harley Quinn. It’s great. Jessika: Oh, I'm so excited.  So what did you think about it? Mike: We loved it. So Sarah and I wound up bingeing it last Friday when we didn't have the kids, because we knew it was not a friendly show,  as you get the warning at the very beginning, talking about how this is a mature show and it is not, not for small children. I think we binged all of it in one night because you know, it was only 10 episodes and they're half hour.  So we didn't know  much about it. Other than I'd seen a promo image for it. I had seen a bunch of nerds getting mad about it online, but I also knew that Patton Oswalt was involved. So I was already sold because anything that man touches I will consume. We wound up just being blown out of the water. And it's so funny while also [00:04:00] being weirdly faithful to Marvel Comics lore and in a weird twist,  we wound up adopting a dog two days later. And, it was very unexpected. It was a very spur of the moment thing where we saw this dog online and then decided to apply for him. And we got him and I didn't think this was actually going to fly, but Sarah agreed to it, much to her chagrin I'm sure later on, but we named him MODOG. So MODOG stands for Miniature Organism Designed Only for Gnawing because he's a puppy and he's chewing on everything as puppies do. We call him Mo for short, there's a graphic designer at my company who immediately whipped up an image of him MODOK's doomsday chair. So it's his face, but then MODOK's body. It's great. And I've shared it everywhere. And now I have a new life goal where I want to have Patton Oswalt meet my dog and then sign a printing of that graphic.So. Patton Oswalt, future friend of the podcast, please hit us up.  Jessika: That was a really cute picture. [00:05:00] I literally LOL'd when I saw it. Mike:It was very good. It's also been turned into a Slack emoji in our work slack. And as a result, it's just getting spammed by everybody on my team.  Jessika:  Deservedly so.  Nowonto our main topic, which is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films. First, I want to give a shout out to the resources I used in my research of these films. IMDB.com, movie web.com. There was a whole  interview with the cast and crew of the making of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the Hollywood reporter.com. Turtlepediafandom.com, which is very well organized and has tons of information with resources cited and the film, The Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is basically the history told through compiled interviews of [00:06:00] those involved in making this amazing franchise. So these live action films, I don't know about you. I absolutely remember watching these as a kid, although I didn't realize that until I started watching them again and was immediately able to recall every scene from the first film. And we were also very much, and I've said this before on the podcast, we were very much a teenage mutant ninja turtle household.So it makes total sense that we would have watched that at some point, probably numerous times. I presume you also watched them as a kid. What was your experience with the films? Mike: I mean, I was born in the early eighties, I was very much that target demographic for the Turtles. My mom actually took me to see the first movie, I think four times.  Jessika: Oh, wow.  Mike: I think I mentioned in that Saturday Morning Cartoon episode, that the last time she just sat in the lobby and read a book Jessika: I still love that story. Mike: Yeah,  which, f you ever meet my mom, that, that checks out. She's like, meh, he'll be fine. He'll be [00:07:00] fine. What's the worst that could happen. Letting my eight-year-old go into a movie theater alone. But yeah,  I saw both sequels in the theater too. I think I saw The Secret of the Ooze twice. And then the third one was fine. I mean, we got it on video and I remember watching it a bunch of times with my siblings because they were pretty young and we would just pop it on because it was something that could entertain all of us, but it wasn't one of those things that we needed to see over and over again in the movie theater, as opposed to the other ones.I had so many of the action figures when I was a kid and I was just addicted to the cartoon for like longer than it was cool.  Jessika: Hard same. Very much so.  Mike: But I weirdly wasn't really into the comics. The Ninja Turtle comics were just never something that I was all that curious about. I was already into Marvel and DC and Image and all that stuff.  Jessika: Yeah. Very nice. I'm going to get into production, actors and success of each of the films along with some other fun facts. [00:08:00] But first, can you please give me a brief overview of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle film? Mike: Sure. So Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is  the proverbial superhero origin movie. It's set in a New York that's still rocking the grit of the eighties, and it's also showing a bit more urban decay than we're used to. This New York is in the throes of a crime wave due to the Foot Clan, which has been recruiting wayward teens, and eventually training them to be ninjas of all things. I don't quite understand how you go from recruiting teens to just  commit petty burglaries and then rewarding them with a giant warehouse full of video arcade cabinets and skateboarding ramps and graffiti walls. And regular or menthol cigarettes as was demonstrated in the scene that we get to see a very young Sam Rockwell selling the Foot Clan to teenagers.The movie introduces us to the Ninja Turtles, their leaders Splinter, the vigilante Casey Jones, [00:09:00] and TV reporter April O'Neil, as they all deal with the crime wave in their own ways. But then they eventually work together to defeat Shredder and his army.  Jessika: Yeah. That totally sums it up. What did you think of the film overall on the rewatch? Mike: Honestly, I was surprised by how well it's aged. it's not like the current crop of superhero movies where those are clearly meant to be watched by adults who are fans of the franchise. And then also make it accessible to kids. This was clearly meant to be a kids movie that was tolerable for their parents who got dragged to the theater. It's a lot darker and grittier than I remembered. And a lot of those elements really went over my head as a kid. The Turtles and Splinter themselves, I also think are really impressive, which isn't surprising since the costumes and puppetry were handled by the Jim Henson company. I mean, when you hire the best you get the best. But yeah, most kids during this era had really only been exposed [00:10:00] to the cartoon. So it's a little weird at how serious they went with the overall tone and storyline. My only real complaint was how kind of janky Shredder's costume was, but he actually doesn't show up that much. It's  like he's wearing, do you remember those like weird sequined , evening dresses that were all the rage in the late eighties, early nineties? Jessika: Oh, yes. The ones with the shoulder pads? Mike: Yeah, it kind of looks like someone took the fabric from that and then attached Shredder's blades and shoulder pads. And it's also the wrong color. It's red. They really needed to give him a cape and a belt and I would have been way more okay with that. But it's fine.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: What about you? How do you feel about it?  Jessika: I think it held up pretty well on the rewatch. Like you said, it was super fun. As fun as I remember it. And I really liked April's role in the film, which was kind of, I would say edgy for like the nineties. She's independent. She lives alone, although her boss has absolutely [00:11:00] no boundaries. He just fucking shows up there with his kid and the kid's fucking stealing things from her. Like screw that, don't bring your kid here. Mike: She lives in this weird shithole of an apartment, too. Which doesn't make sense to me because she's apparently  a really well-respected and popular TV journalist.  Jessika: Mike we're women. We can't both have success and nice things  Mike: I'm sorry.  Jessika: That would be really threatening to the patriarchy. I really dig that she follows stories regardless of what others may advise her she should do. Like, she's not about doing fluff pieces. She's just like, no, let's do this thing. And at, one point she's almost mugged and she doesn't tell her boss because why, why, why, why should she, like, nothing happened really? And when he asks her about it, she has this like “for what” attitude, which I'm like, yeah, exactly. For what? Like, why should I, I'm not going to call my boss and be like, “I tripped on the [00:12:00] sidewalk and sprained my ankle.” I don't know. It didn't make any sense. So Mike: That producer really was, he was really there as an excuse to introduce the character of his son. That was really the only purpose that he was there for.  Jessika: Yeah, he popped in and out. He wasn't doing much with that. Yeah. Also the animatronics were surprisingly great. I know it's Jim Henson, but like  the nineties were a really good decade for, good animatronics between like that and Jurassic Park.You know, very, very good. So their movements were just really convincing. And we'll get into, part of why that is, in just a couple of minutes when I talk about the animatronics and the costumes. Mike: Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about that actually.  Jessika: So picture this: It's 1989 and comic book movies were not wildly popular after a couple of recent superhero flops. Their turtles were initially [00:13:00] discovered by Gary Proper, who was a road manager for the comic Gallagher. He had previously worked with Kim Dawson and got her on board as producer. And they signed on Bobby Herbeck as the writer. This was kind of cool because during the writing process, there was a lot of back and forth between Herbeck and the original writers, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird to ensure that the movie was staying true to the comic and, per an interview I read, it was definitely a longer process than Herbeck  had initially thought it would be. Mike:  That makes sense because to be completely honest, the movie feels like a pretty faithful adaptation of the tone of the original comic, which was very over the top and gritty and violent.  Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do like that. They went back and checked instead of just said, okay, well we have the rights and we're going to run and do what we want to do with this.  So now that they had a script, they had to find funding and a studio and a way to make the Turtles come to [00:14:00] life. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood. All three of them were incredibly enthusiastic, but the studios were super wary after the recent comic book related box office failures. Mike: So out of curiosity, which movies were those that failed?  Jessika: Howard the Duck? Mike: Oh yeah. Jessika: Yeah. And so it didn't do well. And there was another one before that, too, although it doesn't say on here, but Howard the Duck was the big one that people were like, yikes, we're going to go ahead and back off. Mike: That was George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. And they thought they had like the next star wars and ET their hands. Jessika: I've never even heard of it. Mike: Oh, oh, we should totally do a retrospective on it at some point.  It's based on a Marvel comics character who is a anthropomorphic duck.  They  had a full animatronic suit.  It's like, you know, Ninja Turtle-quality animatronics, and puppetry. It had all sorts of talent involved with it. And it was one of the biggest box office bombs. So that makes a lot of sense actually, because that'd be the closest [00:15:00] thing where you're talking about anthropomorphic comic characters. Jessika: I'm getting flashes of like a big duck costume. So I may have even seen flashes of it in my life,  Mike: It's a weird movie. It's real weird.  Leah Thompson, you know, the mom from Back to the Future is in it and this was like at the height of her popularity too.  Jessika: Oh no poor Leah.  Mike: It's real uncomfortable. There's a whole scene where she's in bed with Howard in lingerie.  Jessika: Ew, with the duck?.  Mike: It's, very weird  Jessika: I don't like it.  Mike: And very uncomfortable. Jessika: It's weird enough having these teenage, like teenage, they are supposed to be fun. Fact, they're supposed to be 15 during this, that they're all like  over April. It's like, Ooh. Like she is definitely a full adult, a full adult, like you are 15 years old and you're, a turtle! Like…  Mike: And that's unfortunately, [00:16:00] something that's carried on. I feel like the one thing that they don't actually ever do a very good job of adapting is the teenage aspect.  I have hope for what we have coming in the future. We'll talk about that later.  Jessika: Yeah, yeah.  Mike: But yeah.  Jessika: Ugh. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood.  After those comic book related box office failures, after months of persistent nudging, they finally wore down Tom Gray, who was the head of production for Golden Harvest and got approval to light the project with a $3 million budget. And apparently they already had another couple of million  already floating around, like, yeah, no problem. Just, but we need more. Mike: They were already huge, and the funny thing is this is very much like how they actually got their first pitch for getting the action figures made where their agent was driving around with this giant turtle.  I think Playmates was the last toy manufacturer that was actually willing to talk to them and they agreed to it, but they had been making pitches right and left [00:17:00] and no one had picked them up.  Jessika: it was just, it sounded like such a whole thing that they were just like, Fox! How about you? How about blah, blah, blah. And everybody was like, whoa, whoa, you need to leave like exit through where you came from, because we don't want anything you have to tell us.  Mike: Don't even take the main exit, go out the servant's exit. Jessika: Yeah, we don't want to see you leave. Just do it. can teleport. That'd be great.  Mike: We don't want any association with you or your trash. Get out .  Jessika: Oh no. So they hired Steve Barron as director.  Mike: Right. Jessika: Barron  wanted to make sure that the teenage mutant ninja turtles were a hybrid of the lighter animated series, along with the darker vibe of the comics, which is why there is that kind of middle point. It is a little darker, but it's maybe not as dark as the comics and that's intentional. They did want to make it family friendly because the comics really aren't, they're very violent. They're very graphic. You can put a dark spin on things and still make it [00:18:00] family friendly. Barron had also worked with Jim Henson on a previous project and knew Henson's  Creature Shop would make the Turtles more fully believable on screen. Now, the issue was that this was 1990. Jim Henson was arguably the biggest name in the animatronics game, which of course meant his services were not going to be cheap. This edition would be $6 million, which of course was far over their budget. They also had to convince Henson to actually take part in the film because he was concerned that it was too violent for what his puppets should portray and might be a risky move due to his younger fanbase. Took some sweet talking from Barron -which seems to be kind of the name of the game for the Turtles- but Henson finally agreed to assist. And this was the first and what is thought to be the last time that Henson lent out the name to use in this way?  Yeah.  They [00:19:00] had to get another studio involved because they just simply did not have enough money.  Mike: Right.  Jessika: And finally signed on with Fox for a larger budget. Which also fell through. I read an interview that said within 10 days of when they were supposed to start filming, they still didn't have the funding.  Mike: Wow.  Jessika: So they were cutting it incredibly close. I mean, it had literally everything else.  Mike: Come to think of it. I mean, yeah, that's wild. And then also - given the time that this came out- this has gotta be one of the last films that Jim Henson was personally involved with  before he died.  Jessika: Yeah. Actually we'll get into that. We will. Yeah. And not even on this, this part of it, but we'll we'll we'll we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. New Line Cinema eventually came through and signed on to produce. But offered significantly less money than the 6 million that had been proposed. Golden Harvest owner, Raymond Chow, agreed to fund the remainder of the expenses, whatever those were. Mike: Okay. I mean, that was a great bet for him. [00:20:00] Jessika: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Shoot. So this is wild. We were talking about Jim Henson. Let's talk about the costumes because those things were awesome. There were actually two sets of costumes for each turtle, one for the animatronics, s

Happy Halloween! We're joined by comics scribe Daniel "D.G." Chichester to talk about the history of horror comics, Marvel's return to the genre in the early 1990s, and the macabre anti-hero Terror (whom Chichester co-created). 

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Mike: [00:00:00] It's small, but feisty, Mike: Welcome to Tencent Takes, the podcast where we dig up comic book characters’ graves and misappropriate the bodies, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson, and I am joined by my cohost, the Titan of terror herself, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: It is I. Mike: Today, we are extremely fortunate to have comics writer, Daniel, DG Chichester. Dan: Nice to see you both. Mike: Thank you so much for taking the time. You're actually our first official guest on the podcast. Dan: Wow. Okay. I'm going to take that as a good thing. That's great. Mike: Yeah. Well, if you're new to the show, the purpose of our [00:01:00] podcast as always is to look at the weirdest, silliest, coolest moments of comic books, and talk about them in ways that are fun and informative. In this case, we looking at also the spookiest moments, and how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're going to be talking about horror comics. We're looking at their overall history as well as their resurrection at Marvel in the early 1990s, and how it helped give birth to one of my favorite comic characters, an undead anti-hero who went by the name of Terror. Dan, before we started going down this road, could you tell us a little bit about your history in the comic book industry, and also where people can find you if they want to learn more about you and your work? Dan: Absolutely. At this point, people may not even know I had a history in comic books, but that's not true. Uh, I began at Marvel as an assistant in the mid-eighties while I was still going to film school and, semi quickly kind of graduated up, to a more official, [00:02:00] assistant editor position. Worked my way up through editorial, and then, segued into freelance writing primarily for, but also for DC and Dark Horse and worked on a lot of, semi-permanent titles, Daredevil’s probably the best known of them. But I think I was right in the thick of a lot of what you're going to be talking about today in terms of horror comics, especially at Marvel, where I was fiercely interested in kind of getting that going. And I think pushed for certain things, and certainly pushed to be involved in those such as the Hellraiser and Nightbreed Clive Barker projects and Night Stalkers and, uh, and Terror Incorporated, which we're going to talk about. And wherever else I could get some spooky stuff going. And I continued on in that, heavily until about 96 / 97, when the big crash kind of happened, continued on through about 99 and then have not really been that actively involved since then. But folks can find out what I'm doing now, if they go to story maze.substack.com, where I have a weekly newsletter, which features [00:03:00] new fiction and some things that I think are pretty cool that are going on in storytelling, and also a bit of a retrospective of looking back at a lot of the work that I did. Mike: Awesome. Before we actually get started talking about horror comics, normally we talk about one cool thing that we have read or watched recently, but because this episode is going to be dropping right before Halloween, what is your favorite Halloween movie or comic book? Dan: I mean, movies are just terrific. And there's so many when I saw that question, especially in terms of horror and a lot of things immediately jumped to mind. The movie It Follows, the recent It movie, The Mist, Reanimator, are all big favorites. I like horror movies that really kind of get under your skin and horrify you, not just rack up a body count. But what I finally settled on as a favorite is probably John Carpenter's the Thing, which I just think is one of the gruesomest what is going to happen next? What the fuck is going to happen next?[00:04:00] And just utter dread. I mean, there's just so many things that combined for me on that one. And I think in terms of comics, I've recently become just a huge fan of, and I'm probably going to slaughter the name, but Junji Ito’s work, the Japanese manga artist. And, Uzumaki, which is this manga, which is about just the bizarreness of this town, overwhelmed with spirals of all things. And if you have not read that, it is, it is the trippiest most unsettling thing I've read in, in a great long time. So happy Halloween with that one. Mike: So that would be mango, right? Dan: Yeah. Yeah. So you'd make sure you read it in the right order, or otherwise it's very confusing, so. Mike: Yeah, we actually, haven't talked a lot about manga on this. We probably should do a deep dive on it at some point. But, Jessika, how about you? Jessika: Well, I'm going to bring it down a little bit more silly because I've always been a fan of horror and the macabre and supernatural. So always grew up seeking creepy media as [00:05:00] a rule, but I also loves me some silliness. So the last three or so years, I've had a tradition of watching Hocus Pocus with my friend, Rob around Halloween time. And it's silly and it's not very heavy on the actual horror aspect, but it's fun. And it holds up surprisingly well. Mike: Yeah, we have all the Funkos of the Sanderson sisters in our house. Jessika: It's amazing watching it in HD, their costumes are so intricate and that really doesn't come across on, you know, old VHS or watching it on television back in the day. And it's just, it's so fun. How much, just time and effort it looks like they put into it, even though some of those details really weren't going to translate. Dan: How very cool. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Yeah. So, but I also really like actual horror, so I'm also in the next couple of days is going to be a visiting the 1963 Haunting of Hill House because that's one of my favorites. Yeah. It's so good. And used to own the book that the movie was based on also. And seen all the [00:06:00] iterations and it's the same storyline the recent Haunting of Hill house is based on, which is great. That plot line has been reworked so many times, but it's such a great story, I'm just not shocked in the least that it would run through so many iterations and still be accepted by the public in each of its forms. Mike: Yeah. I really liked that Netflix interpretation of it, it was really good. Dan: They really creeped everything out. Mike: Yeah. There's a YouTuber called Lady Night, The Brave, and she does a really great summary breakdown explaining a lot of the themes and it's like almost two hours I think, of YouTube video, but she does these really lovely retrospectives. So, highly recommend you check that out. If you want to just think about that the Haunting of Hill House more. Jessika: Oh, I do. Yes. Mike: I'm going to split the difference between you two. When I was growing up, I was this very timid kid and the idea of horror just creeped me out. And so I avoided it like the plague. And then when I was in high [00:07:00] school, I had some friends show me some movies and I was like, these are great, why was I afraid of this stuff? And so I kind of dove all the way in. But my preferred genre is horror comedy. That is the one that you can always get me in on. And, I really love this movie from the mid-nineties called the Frighteners, which is a horror comedy starring Michael J. Fox, and it's directed by Peter Jackson. And it was written by Peter Jackson and his partner, Fran Walsh. And it was a few years before they, you know, went on to make a couple of movies based on this little known franchise called Lord of the Rings. But it's really wild. It's weird, and it's funny, and it has some genuine jump scare moments. And there's this really great ghost story at the core of it. And the special effects at the time were considered amazing and groundbreaking, but now they're kind of, you look at, and you're like, oh, that's, high-end CG, high-end in the mid-nineties. Okay. But [00:08:00] yeah, like I said, or comedies are my absolute favorite things to watch. That's why Cabin in the Woods always shows up in our horror rotation as well. Same with Tucker and Dale vs Evil. That's my bread and butter. With comic books, I go a little bit creepier. I think I talked about the Nice House on the Lake, that's the current series that I'm reading from DC that's genuinely creepy and really thoughtful and fun. And it's by James Tynion who also wrote Something That's Killing the Children. So those are excellent things to read if you're in the mood for a good horror comic. Dan: Great choice on the Frighteners. That's I think an unsung classic, that I'm going to think probably came out 10 years too early. Mike: Yeah. Dan: It’s such a mashup of different, weird vibes, that it would probably do really, really well today. But at that point in time, it was just, what is this? You know? Cause it's, it's just cause the horrifying thing in it are really horrifying. And, uh, Gary Busey's son, right, plays the evil ghost and he is just trippy, off the wall, you know, horrifying. [00:09:00] Mike: Yeah. And it starts so silly, and then it kind of just continues to go creepier and creepier, and by the time that they do some of the twists revealing his, you know, his agent in the real world, it's a genuine twist. Like, I was really surprised the first time I saw it and I - Dan: Yeah. Mike: was so creeped out, but yeah. Dan: Plus it's got R. Lee Ermey as the army ghost, which is just incredible. So, Mike: Yeah. And, Chi McBride is in it, and, Jeffrey Combs. Dan: Oh, oh that’s right, right. right. Mike: Yeah. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. Mike: All right. So, I suppose we should saunter into the graveyard, as it were, and start talking about the history of horror comics. So, Dan, obviously I know that you're familiar with horror comics, Dan: A little bit. Mike: Yeah. What about you, Jess? You familiar with horror comics other than what we've talked about in the show? Jessika: I started getting into it once you and I started, you know, talking more on the [00:10:00] show. And so I grabbed a few things. I haven't looked through all of them yet, but I picked up some older ones. I did just recently pick up, it'll be more of a, kind of a funny horror one, but they did a recent Elvira and Vincent Price. So, yeah, so I picked that up, but issue one of that. So it's sitting on my counter ready for me to read right now. Mike: Well, and that's funny, cause Elvira actually has a really long, storied history in comic books. Like she first appeared in kind of like the revival of House of Mystery that DC did. And then she had an eighties series that had over a hundred issues that had a bunch of now major names involved. And she's continued to have series like, you can go to our website and get autographed copies of her recent series from, I think Dynamite. Jessika: That's cool. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Nice. Mike: Speaking of horror comedy Elvira is great. Jessika: Yes. Mike: I recently showed Sarah the Elvira Mistress of the Dark movie and she was, I think really sad that I hadn't showed it to her sooner. Jessika: [00:11:00] That's another one I need to go watch this week. Wow. Don’t- nobody call me. I'm just watching movies all week. Dan: Exactly. Mike: It's on a bunch of different streaming services, I think right now. Well it turns out that horror comics, have pretty much been a part of the industry since it really became a proven medium. You know, it wasn't long after comics became a legit medium in their own, right that horror elements started showing up in superhero books, which like, I mean, it isn't too surprising. Like the 1930’s was when we got the Universal classic movie monsters, so it makes a lot of sense that those kinds of characters would start crossing over into comic books, just to take advantage of that popularity. Jerry Siegel and Joel Schuster, the guys who created Superman, actually created the supernatural investigator called Dr. Occult in New Fun Comics three years before they brought Superman to life. And Dr. Occult still shows up in DC books. Like, he was a major character in the Books of Magic with Neil Gaiman. I think he may show up in Sandman later on. I can't remember. Jessika: Oh, okay. Dan: I wouldn't be surprised. Neil would find ways to mine that. [00:12:00] Mike: Yeah. I mean, that was a lot of what the Sandman was about, was taking advantage of kind of long forgotten characters that DC had had and weaving them into his narratives. And, if you're interested in that, we talk about that in our book club episodes, which we're currently going through every other episode. So the next episode after this is going to be the third episode of our book club, where we cover volumes five and six. So, horror comics though really started to pick up in the 1940s. There's multiple comic historians who say that the first ongoing horror series was Prized Comics, New Adventures of Frankenstein, which featured this updated take on the original story by Mary Shelley. It took place in America. The monster was named Frankenstein. He was immediately a terror. It's not great, but it's acknowledged as being really kind of the first ongoing horror story. And it's really not even that much of a horror story other than it featured Frankenstein's monster. But after that, a number of publishers started to put out adaptations of classic horror stories for awhile. So you had [00:13:00] Avon Publications making it official in 1946 with the comic Erie, which is based on the first real dedicated horror comic. Yeah. This is the original cover to Erie Comics. Number one, if you could paint us a word picture. Dan: Wow. This is high end stuff as it's coming through. Well it looks a lot like a Zine or something, you know it's got a very, Mac paint logo from 1990, you know, it's, it's your, your typical sort of like, ooh, I'm shaky kind of logo. That's Eerie Comics. There's a Nosferatu looking character. Who's coming down some stairs with the pale moon behind him. It, he’s got a knife in his hand, so, you know, he's up to no good. And there is a femme fatale at the base of the stairs. She may have moved off of some train tracks to get here. And, uh, she's got a, uh, a low, cut dress, a lot of leg and the arms and the wrists are bound, but all this for only 10. cents. So, I think there's a, there's a bargain there.[00:14:00] Mike: That is an excellent description. Thank you. So, what's funny is that Erie at the time was the first, you know, official horror comic, really, but it only had one issue that came out and then it sort of vanished from sight. It came back with a new series that started with a new number one in the 1950s, but this was the proverbial, the shot that started the war. You know, we started seeing a ton of anthology series focusing on horror, like Adventures into the Unknown, which ran into the 1960s and then Amazing Mysteries and Marvel Tales were repurposed series for Marvel that they basically changed the name of existing series into these. And they started doing kind of macabre, weird stories. And then, we hit the 1950s. And the early part of the 1950s was when horror comics really seemed to take off and experienced this insane success. We've talked about how in the post-WWII America, superhero comics were kind of declining in [00:15:00] popularity. By the mid 1950s, only three heroes actually had their own books and that was Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Which, I didn't realize that until I was doing research. I didn't, I just assumed that there were other superhero comics at the time. But we started seeing comics about horror and crime and romance really starting to get larger shares of the market. And then EC Comics was one of those doing gangbuster business during this whole era. Like, this was when we saw those iconic series, the Haunt of Fear, the Vault of Horror, the Crypt of Terror, which was eventually rebranded to Tales from the Crypt. Those all launched and they found major success. And then the bigger publishers were also getting in on this boom. During the first half of the 1950s Atlas, which eventually became Marvel, released almost 400 issues across 18 horror titles. And then American Comics Group released almost 125 issues between five different horror titles. Ace comics did almost a hundred issues between five titles. I'm curious. I'm gonna ask both of you, what [00:16:00] do you think the market share of horror comics was at the time? Dan: In terms of comics or in terms of just like newsstand, magazine, distribution. Mike: I'm going to say in terms of distribution. Dan: I mean, I know they were phenomenally successful. I would, be surprised if it was over 60%. Mike: Okay. How about. Jessika: Oh, goodness. Let's throw a number out. I'm going to say 65 just because I want to get close enough, but maybe bump it up just a little bit. This is a contest now. Dan: The precision now, like the 65. Jessika: Yes. Mike: Okay. Well, obviously we don't have like a hard definite number, but there was a 2009 article from reason magazine saying that horror books made up a quarter of all comics by 1953. So, so you guys were overestimating it, but it was still pretty substantial. At the same time, we were also seeing a surge in horror films. Like, the 1950s are known as the atomic age and media reflected [00:17:00] societal anxiety, at the possibility of nuclear war and to a lesser extent, white anxiety about societal changes. So this was the decade that gave us Invasion of the Body Snatchers The Thing from Another World, which led to John Carpenter's The Thing eventually. Um, and the Creature from the Black Lagoon. Hammer horror films also started to get really huge during this time. So we saw the beginning of stuff like Christopher Lee's, Dracula series of films. So the fifties were like a really good decade for horror, I feel. But at the same time, violent crime in America started to pick up around this period. And people really started focusing on juvenile criminals and what was driving them. So, there were a lot of theories about why this was going on and no one's ever really come up with a definite answer, but there was the psychiatrist named Frederick Wortham who Dan, I yeah. Dan: Oh yeah, psychiatrist in big air quotes, yeah. Mike: In quotes. Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. And he was convinced that the rise in crime was due to comics, and he spent years writing and speaking against them. He almost turned it into a cottage industry for himself. And this culminated in 1954, when he published a book called Seduction of the Innocent, that blamed comic books for the rise in juvenile delinquency, and his arguments are laughable. Like, I mean, there's just no way around it. Like you read this stuff and you can't help, but roll your eyes and chuckle. But, at the time comics were a relatively new medium, you know, and people really only associated them with kids. And his arguments were saying, oh, well, Wonder Woman was a lesbian because of her strength and independence, which these days, I feel like that actually has a little bit of credibility, but, like, I don't know. But I don't really feel like that's contributing to the delinquency of the youth. You know, and then he also said that Batman and Robin were in a homosexual relationship. And then my favorite was that Superman comics were [00:19:00] un-American and fascist. Dan: Well. Mike: All right. Dan: There’s people who would argue that today. Mike: I mean, but yeah, and then he actually, he got attention because there were televised hearings with the Senate subcommittee on juvenile delinquency. I mean, honestly, every time I think about Seduction of the Innocent and how it led to the Comics Code Authority. I see the parallels with Tipper Gore’s Parent Music Resource Center, and how they got the Parental Advisory sticker on certain music albums, or Joe Lieberman’s hearings on video games in the 1990’s and how that led to the Electronic Systems Reading Board system, you know, where you provide almost like movie ratings to video games. And Wortham also reminds me a lot of this guy named Jack Thompson, who was a lawyer in the nineties and aughts. And he was hell bent on proving a link between violent video games and school shootings. And he got a lot of media attention at the time until he was finally disbarred for his antics. But there was this [00:20:00] definite period where people were trying to link video games and violence. And, even though the statistics didn't back that up. And, I mean, I think about this a lot because I used to work in video games. I spent almost a decade working in the industry, but you know, it's that parallel of anytime there is a new form of media that is aimed at kids, it feels like there is a moral panic. Dan: Well, I think it goes back to what you were saying before about, you know, even as, as things change in society, you know, when people in society get at-risk, you know, you went to Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Right. Which is classically thought to be a response to communism, you know, and the feelings of communist oppression and you know, the different, you know, the other, and it's the same thing. I think every single one of these is just a proof point of if you want to become, suddenly well-known like Lieberman or Wortham or anything, you know, pick the other that the older generation doesn't really understand, right? Maybe now there are more adults playing video games, but it's probably still perceived as a more juvenile [00:21:00] thing or comics or juvenile thing, or certain types of movies are a juvenile thing, you know, pick the other pick on it, hold it up as the weaponized, you know, piece, and suddenly you're popular. And you've got a great flashpoint that other people can rally around and blame, as if one single thing is almost ever the cause of everything. And I always think it's interesting, you know, the EC Comics, you know, issues in terms of, um, Wortham’s witch hunt, you know, the interesting thing about those is yet they were gruesome and they are gruesome in there, but they're also by and large, I don't know the other ones as well, but I know the EC Comics by and large are basically morality plays, you know, they're straight up morality plays in the sense that the bad guys get it in the end, almost every time, like they do something, they do some horrific thing, but then the corpse comes back to life and gets them, you know, so there's, there's always a comeuppance where the scales balance. But that was of course never going to be [00:22:00] an argument when somebody can hold up a picture of, you know, a skull, you know, lurching around, you know, chewing on the end trails of something. And then that became all that was talked about. Mike: Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, spring boarding off of that, you know, worth them and the subcommittee hearings and all that, they led to the comics magazine association of America creating the Comics Code Authority. And this was basically in order to avoid government regulation. They said, no, no, no, we'll police ourselves so that you don't have to worry about this stuff. Which, I mean, again, that's what we did with the SRB. It was a response to that. We could avoid government censorship. So the code had a ton of requirements that each book had to meet in order to receive the Comics Code Seal of Approval on the cover. And one of the things you couldn't do was have quote, scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead or torture, which I mean,[00:23:00] okay. So the latter half of the 1950’s saw a lot of these dedicated horror series, you know, basically being shut down or they drastically changed. This is, you know, the major publishers really freaked out. So Marvel and DC rebranded their major horror titles. They were more focused on suspense or mystery or Sci-Fi or superheroes in a couple of cases, independent publishers, didn't really have to worry about the seal for different reasons. Like, some of them were able to rely on the rep for publishing wholesome stuff like Dell or Gold Key. I think Gold Key at the time was doing a lot of the Disney books. So they just, they were like, whatever. Dan: Right, then EC, but, but EC had to shut down the whole line and then just became mad. Right? I mean, that's that was the transition at which William, you know, Gains - Mike: Yeah. Dan: basically couldn't contest what was going on. Couldn't survive the spotlight. You know, he testified famously at that hearing. But had to give up all of [00:24:00] that work that was phenomenally profitable for them. And then had to fall back to Mad Magazine, which of course worked out pretty well. Mike: Yeah, exactly. By the end of the 1960s, though, publishers started to kind of gently push back a little bit like, Warren publishing, and Erie publications, like really, they didn't give a shit. Like Warren launched a number of horror titles in the sixties, including Vampirilla, which is like, kind of, I feel it's sort of extreme in terms of both sex and horror, because I mean, we, we all know what Vampirilla his costume is. It hasn't changed in the 50, approximately 50 years that it's been out like. Dan: It's like, what can you do with dental floss, Right. When you were a vampire? I mean, that's basically like, she doesn’t wear much. Mike: No, I mean, she never has. And then by the end of the sixties, Marvel and DC started to like kind of steer some of their books back towards the horror genre. Like how some Mystery was one of them where it, I think with issue 1 75, that was when they [00:25:00] took away, took it away from John Jones and dial H for Hero. And they were like, no, no, no, no. We're going to, we're going to bring, Cain back as the host and start telling horror morality plays again, which is what they were always doing. And this meant that the Comics Code Authority needed to update their code. So in 1971, they revised it to be a little bit more horror friendly. Jessika: Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with, walking dead or torture shall not be used. Vampires, ghouls and werewolves shall be permitted to be used when handled in the classic traditions, such as Frankenstein, Dracula, and other high caliber literary works written by Edgar Allen Poe, Saki, Conan Doyle, and other respected authors whose works are read in schools around the world. Mike: But at this point, Marvel and DC really jumped back into the horror genre. This was when we started getting books, like the tomb of Dracula, Ghost Rider, where will finite and son of Satan, and then DC had a [00:26:00] bunch of their series like they had, what was it? So it was originally The Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love, and then it eventually got retitled to Forbidden Tales of the Dark Mansion. Like, just chef’s kiss on that title. Dan: You can take that old Erie comic and throw, you know, the Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love as the title on that. And it would work, you know. Mike: I know. Right. So Dan, I'm curious, what is your favorite horror comic or comic character from this era? Dan: I would say, it was son of Satan, because it felt so trippy and forbidden, and I think comics have always, especially mainstream comics you know, I've always responded also to what's out there. Right. I don't think it's just a loosening the restrictions at that point, but in that error, what's going on, you're getting a lot of, I think the films of Race with the Devil and you're getting the Exorcist and you're getting, uh, the Omen, you know, Rosemary's baby. right. Satanism, [00:27:00] the devil, right. It's, it's high in pop culture. So true to form. You know, I think Son of Satan is in some ways, like a response of Marvel, you know, to that saying, let's glom onto this. And for a kid brought up in the Catholic church, there was a certain eeriness to this, ooh, we're reading about this. It's like, is it really going to be Satanism? And cause I was very nervous that we were not allowed even watch the Exorcist in our home, ever. You know, I didn't see the Exorcist until I was like out of high school. And I think also the character as he looks is just this really trippy look, right. At that point, if you're not familiar with the character, he's this buff dude, his hair flares up into horns, he just wears a Cape and he carries a giant trident, he’s got a massive pentacle, I think a flaming pentacle, you know, etched in his chest. Um, he's ready to do business, ya know, in some strange form there. So for me, he was the one I glommed on to the most. [00:28:00] Mike: Yeah. Well, I mean, it was that whole era, it was just, it was Gothic horror brought back and Satanism and witchcraft is definitely a part of that genre. Dan: Sure. Mike: So, that said, kind of like any trend horror comics, you know, they have their rise and then they started to kind of fall out of popularity by the end of the seventies or the early eighties. I feel like it was a definite end of the era when both House of Mystery and Ghost Writer ended in 1983. But you know, there were still some individual books that were having success, but it just, it doesn't feel like Marvel did a lot with horror comics during the eighties. DC definitely had some luck with Alan Moore’s run of the Swamp Thing. And then there was stuff like Hellblazer and Sandman. Which, as I mentioned, we're doing our book club episodes for, but also gave rise to Vertigo Comics, you know, in the early nineties. Not to say that horror comics still weren't a thing during this time, but it seems like the majority of them were coming from indie publishers. Off the top of my head, one example I think of still is Dead World, which basically created a zombie apocalypse [00:29:00] universe. And it started with Aero comics. It was created in the late eighties, and it's still going today. I think it's coming out from IDW now. But at the same time, it's not like American stopped enjoying horror stuff. Like this was the decade where we got Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm street, Evil Dead, Hellraiser, Poltergeist, Child's Play, just to name a few of the franchises that we were introduced to. And, I mentioned Hellraiser. I love Hellraiser, and Dan, I know that you have a pretty special connection to that brand. Dan: I do. I put pins in my face every night just to kind of keep my complexion, you know? Mike: So, let's transition over to the nineties and Marvel and let's start that off with Epic Comics. Epic started in the eighties, and it was basically a label that would print, create our own comics. And they eventually started to use label to produce, you know, in quotes, mature comics. So Wikipedia says that this was your first editorial job at Marvel was with the [00:30:00] Epic Line. Is that correct? Dan: Well, I'll go back and maybe do just a little correction on Epic's mission if you don't mind. Mike: Yeah, yeah. Dan: You know, first, which is it was always creator owned, and it did start as crude. And, but I don't think that ever then transitioned into more mature comics, sometimes that just was what creator-owned comics were. Right. That was just part of the mission. And so as a creator-owned imprint, it could be anything, it could be the silliest thing, it could be the most mature thing. So it was always, you know, part of what it was doing, and part of the mission of doing creator-owned comics, and Archie Goodwin was the editor in chief of that line, was really to give creators and in to Marvel. If we gave them a nice place to play with their properties, maybe they would want to go play in the mainstream Marvel. So you might get a creator who would never want to work for Marvel, for whatever reason, they would have a great Epic experience doing a range of things, and then they would go into this. So there was always levels of maturity and we always looked at it as very eclectic and challenging, you know, sometimes in a good [00:31:00] way. So I'll have to go back to Wikipedia and maybe correct them. My first job was actually, I was on the Marvel side and it was as the assistant to the assistant, to the editor in chief. So I would do all of the grunt work and the running around that the assistant to the editor in chief didn't want to do. And she would turn to me and say, Dan, you're going to go run around the city and find this thing for Jim Shooter. Now, then I did that for about five or six months, I was still in film school, and then left, which everyone was aghast, you don't leave Marvel comics, by choice. And, but I had, I was still in school. I had a summer job already sort of set up, and I left to go take that exciting summer job. And then I was called over the summer because there was an opening in the Epic line. And they want to know if I'd be interested in taking on this assistant editor’s job. And I said, it would have to be part-time cause I still had a semester to finish in school, but they were intrigued and I was figuring, oh, well this is just kind of guaranteed job. [00:32:00] Never knowing it was going to become career-like, and so that was then sort of my second job. Mike: Awesome. So this is going to bring us to the character of Terror. So he was introduced as a character in the Shadow Line Saga, which was one of those mature comics, it was like a mature superhero universe. That took place in a few different series under the Epic imprint. There was Dr. Zero, there was St. George, and then there was Power Line. Right. Dan: That's correct, yep. Mike: And so the Shadow Line Saga took his name from the idea that there were these beings called Shadows, they were basically super powered immortal beings. And then Terror himself first appeared as Shrek. He's this weird looking enforcer for a crime family in St. George. And he becomes kind of a recurring nemesis for the main character. He's kind of like the street-level boss while it's hinting that there's going to be a eventual confrontation between the main character of St. George and Dr. Zero, who is kind of [00:33:00] a Superman character, but it turns out he has been manipulating humanity for, you know, millennia at this point. Dan: I think you've encapsulated it quite well. Mike: Well, thank you. So the Shadow Line Saga, that only lasted for about what a year or two? Dan: Probably a couple of years, maybe a little over. There was about, I believe, eight to nine issues of each of the, the main comics, the ones you just cited. And then we segued those over to, sort of, uh, an omni series we call Critical Mass, which brought together all three characters or storylines. And then try to tell this, excuse the pun, epic, you know story, which will advance them all. And so wrapped up a lot of loose ends and, um, you know, became quite involved now. Mike: Okay. Dan: It ran about seven or eight issues. Mike: Okay. Now a couple of years after Terror was introduced under the Epic label, Marvel introduced a new Ghost Rider series in 1990 that hit that sweet spot of like nineties extreme with a capital X and, and, you know, [00:34:00] it also gave us a spooky anti heroes like that Venn diagram, where it was like spooky and extreme and rides a motorcycle and right in the middle, you had Ghost Rider, but from what I understand the series did really well, commercially for Marvel. Comichron, which is the, the comic sales tracking site, notes that early issues were often in the top 10 books sold each month for 91. Like there are eight issues of Ghost Rider, books that are in the top 100 books for that year. So it's not really surprising that Marvel decided to go in really hard with supernatural characters. And in 1992, we had this whole batch of horror hero books launch. We had Spirits of Vengeance, which was a spinoff from Ghost Rider, which saw a Ghost Rider teaming up with Johnny Blaze, and it was the original Ghost Writer. And he didn't have a hellfire motorcycle this time, but he had a shotgun that would fire hell fire, you know, and he had a ponytail, it was magnificent. And then there was also the Night Stalkers, [00:35:00] which was a trio of supernatural investigators. There was Hannibal King and Blade and oh, I'm blanking on the third one. Dan: Frank Drake. Mike: Yeah. And Frank Drake was a vampire, right? Dan: And he was a descendant of Dracula, but also was a vampire who had sort of been cured. Um, he didn't have a hunger for human blood, but he still had a necessity for some type of blood and possessed all the attributes, you know, of a vampire, you know, you could do all the powers, couldn't go out in the daylight, that sort of thing. So, the best and worst of both worlds. Mike: Right. And then on top of that, we had the Dark Hold, which it's kind of like the Marvel equivalent of the Necronomicon is the best way I can describe it. Dan: Absolutely. Yup. Mike: And that's showed up in Agents of Shield since then. And they just recently brought it into the MCU. That was a thing that showed up in Wanda Vision towards the end. So that's gonna clearly reappear. And then we also got Morbius who is the living vampire from [00:36:00] Spider-Man and it's great. He shows up in this series and he's got this very goth rock outfit, is just it's great. Dan: Which looked a lot like how Len Kaminsky dressed in those days in all honesty. Mike: Yeah, okay. Dan: So Len will now kill me for that, but. Mike: Oh, well, but yeah, so these guys were all introduced via a crossover event called Rise of the Midnight Sons, which saw all of these heroes, you know, getting their own books. And then they also teamed up with Dr. Strange to fight against Lilith the mother of demons. And she was basically trying to unleash her monstrous spawn across the world. And this was at the same time the Terror wound up invading the Marvel Universe. So if you were going to give an elevator pitch for Terror in the Marvel Universe, how would you describe him? Dan: I actually wrote one down, I'll read it to you, cause you, you know, you put that there and was like, oh gosh, I got to like now pitch this. A mythic manifestation of fear exists in our times, a top dollar mercenary for hire using a supernatural [00:37:00] ability to attach stolen body parts to himself in order to activate the inherit ability of the original owner. A locksmith's hand or a marksman, his eye or a kickboxer his legs, his gruesome talent gives him the edge to take on the jobs no one else can, he accomplishes with Savage, restyle, scorn, snark, and impeccable business acumen. So. Mike: That's so good. It's so good. I just, I have to tell you the twelve-year-old Mike is like giddy to be able to talk to you about this. Dan: I was pretty giddy when I was writing this stuff. So that's good. Mike: So how did Terror wind up crossing into the Marvel Universe? Like, because he just showed shows up in a couple of cameos in some Daredevil issues that you also wrote. I believe. Dan: Yeah, I don't know if he'd showed up before the book itself launched that might've, I mean, the timing was all around the same time. But everybody who was involved with Terror, love that Terror and Terror Incorporated, which was really actual title. Love the hell out of [00:38:00] the book, right. And myself, the editors, Carl Potts, who was the editor in chief, we all knew it was weird and unique. And, at one point when I, you know, said to Carl afterwards, well I’m just gonna take this whole concept and go somewhere else with it, he said, you can't, you made up something that, you know, can't really be replicated without people knowing exactly what you're doing. It’s not just another guy with claws or a big muscle guy. How many people grab other people's body parts? So I said, you know, fie on me, but we all loved it. So when, the Shadowline stuff kind of went away, uh, and he was sort of kicking out there is still, uh, Carl came to me one day and, and said, listen, we love this character. We're thinking of doing something with horror in Marvel. This was before the Rise of the Midnight Sons. So it kind of came a little bit ahead of that. I think this eventually would become exactly the Rise of the Midnight Sons, but we want to bring together a lot of these unused horror characters, like Werewolf by Night, Man Thing, or whatever, but we want a central kind of [00:39:00] character who, navigates them or maybe introduces them. Wasn't quite clear what, and they thought Terror, or Shrek as he still was at that point, could be that character. He could almost be a Crypt Keeper, maybe, it wasn't quite fully baked. And, so we started to bounce this around a little bit, and then I got a call from Carl and said, yeah, that’s off. We're going to do something else with these horror characters, which again would eventually become probably the Midnight Sons stuff. But he said, but we still want to do something with it. You know? So my disappointment went to, oh, what do you mean? How could we do anything? He said, what if you just bring him into the Marvel Universe? We won't say anything about what he did before, and just use him as a character and start over with him operating as this high-end mercenary, you know, what's he going to do? What is Terror Incorporated, and how does he do business within the Marvel world? And so I said, yes, of course, I'm not going to say that, you know, any quicker and just jumped into [00:40:00] it. And I didn't really worry about the transition, you know, I wasn't thinking too much about, okay. How does he get from Shadow Line world, to earth 616 or whatever, Marcus McLaurin, who was the editor. God bless him, for years would resist any discussion or no, no, it's not the same character. Marcus, it’s the same character I'm using the same lines. I'm having him referenced the same fact that he's had different versions of the word terrors, his name at one point, he makes a joke about the Saint George complex. I mean, it's the same character. Mike: Yeah. Dan: But , you know, Marcus was a very good soldier to the Marvel hierarchy. So we just really brought him over and we just went all in on him in terms of, okay, what could a character like this play in the Marvel world? And he played really well in certain instances, but he certainly was very different than probably anything else that was going on at the time. Mike: Yeah. I mean, there certainly wasn't a character like him before. So all the Wikias, like [00:41:00] Wikipedia, all the Marvel fan sites, they all list Daredevil 305 as Terror’s first official appearance in. Dan: Could be. Mike: Yeah, but I want to talk about that for a second, because that is, I think the greatest villain that I've ever seen in a Marvel comic, which was the Surgeon General, who is this woman who is commanding an army of like, I mean, basically it's like a full-scale operation of that urban myth of - Dan: Yeah. Mike: -the dude goes home with an attractive woman that he meets at the club. And then he wakes up in a bathtub full of ice and he's missing organs. Dan: Yeah. You know, sometimes, you know, that was certainly urban myth territory, and I was a big student of urban myths and that was the sort of thing that I think would show up in the headlines every three to six months, but always one of those probably friend of a friend stories that. Mike: Oh yeah. Dan: Like a razor an apple or something like that, that never actually sort of tracks back. Mike: Well, I mean, the thing now is it's all edibles in candy and they're like, all the news outlets are showing officially [00:42:00] branded edibles. Which, what daddy Warbucks mother fucker. Jessika: Mike knows my stand on this. Like, no, no, nobody is buying expensive edibles. And then putting them in your child's candy. Like, No, no, that's stupid. Dan: No, it's the, it's the, easier version of putting the LSD tab or wasting your pins on children in Snickers bars. Jessika: Right. Dan: Um, but but I think, that, that storyline is interesting, Mike, cause it's the, it's one of the few times I had a plotline utterly just completely rejected by an editor because I think I was doing so much horror stuff at the time. Cause I was also concurrently doing the Hellraiser work, the Night Breed work. It would have been the beginning of the Night Stalkers work, cause I was heavily involved with the whole Midnight Sons work. And I went so far on the first plot and it was so grizzly and so gruesome that, Ralph Macchio who was the editor, called me up and said, yeah, this title is Daredevil. It's not Hellraiser. So I had to kind of back off [00:43:00] and realize, uh, yeah, I put a little too much emphasis on the grisliness there. So. Mike: That's amazing. Dan: She was an interesting, exploration of a character type. Mike: I'm really sad that she hasn't showed back up, especially cause it feels like it'd be kind of relevant these days with, you know, how broken the medical system is here in America. Dan: Yeah. It's, it's funny. And I never played with her again, which is, I think one of my many Achilles heels, you know, as I would sometimes introduce characters and then I would just not go back to them for some reason, I was always trying to kind of go forward onto something new. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Is there anything about Terror's character that you related to at the time, or now even. Dan: Um, probably being very imperious, very complicated, having a thing for long coats. Uh, I think all of those probably, you know, work then and now, I've kind of become convinced weirdly enough over time, that Terror was a character who [00:44:00] and I, you know, I co-created him with Margaret Clark and, and Klaus Janson, but I probably did the most work with him over the years, you know? So I feel maybe a little bit more ownership, but I've sort of become convinced that he was just his own thing, and he just existed out there in the ether, and all I was ultimately was a conduit that I was, I was just channeling this thing into our existence because he came so fully formed and whenever I would write him, he would just kind of take over the page and take over the instance. That's always how I've viewed him, which is different than many of the other things that I've written. Mike: He's certainly a larger than life personality, and in every sense of that expression. Jessika: Yes. Mike: I'm sorry for the terrible pun. Okay. So we've actually talked a bit about Terror, but I [00:45:00] feel like we need to have Jessika provide us with an overall summary of his brief series. Jessika: So the series is based on the titular character, of course, Terror, who is unable to die and has the ability to replace body parts and gains the skill and memory of that limb. So he might use the eye of a sharpshooter to improve his aim or the arm of an artist for a correct rendering. And because of the inability for his body to die, the dude looks gnarly. His face is a sick green color. He has spike whiskers coming out of the sides of his face, and he mostly lacks lips, sometimes he has lips, but he mostly lacks lips. So we always has this grim smile to his face. And he also has a metal arm, which is awesome. I love that. And he interchanges all of the rest of his body parts constantly. So in one scene he'll have a female arm and in another one it'll sport, an other worldly tentacle. [00:46:00] He states that his business is fear, but he is basically a paid mercenary, very much a dirty deeds, although not dirt cheap; Terror charges, quite a hefty sum for his services, but he is willing to do almost anything to get the job done. His first job is ending someone who has likewise immortal, air quotes, which involves finding an activating a half demon in order to open a portal and then trick a demon daddy to hand over the contract of immortality, you know, casual. He also has run-ins with Wolverine, Dr. Strange Punisher, Silver Sable, and Luke Cage. It's action packed, and you legitimately have no idea what new body part he is going to lose or gain in the moment, or what memory is going to pop up for him from the donor. And it keeps the reader guessing because Terror has no limitations. Mike: Yeah. Dan: was, I was so looking forward to hearing what your recap was going to be. I love that, so I just [00:47:00] want to say that. Jessika: Thank you. I had a lot of fun reading this. Not only was the plot and just the narrative itself, just rolling, but the art was fantastic. I mean, the things you can do with a character like that, there truly aren't any limits. And so it was really interesting to see how everything fell together and what he was doing each moment to kind of get out of whatever wacky situation he was in at the time.So. And his, and his quips, I just, the quips were just, they give me life. Mike: They're so good. Like there was one moment where he was sitting there and playing with the Lament Configuration, and the first issue, which I, I never noticed that before, as long as we ready this time and I was like, oh, that's great. And then he also made a St. George reference towards the end of the series where he was talking about, oh, I knew another guy who had a St. George complex. Dan: Right, right. Right, Mike: Like I love those little Easter eggs. Speaking of Easter eggs, there are a lot of Clive Barker Easter eggs throughout that whole series. Dan: [00:48:00] Well, That's it. That was so parallel at the time, you know. Mike: So around that time was when you were editing and then writing for the HellRaiser series and the Night Breed series, right? Dan: Yes. Certainly writing for them. Yeah. I mean, I did some consulting editing on the HellRaiser and other Barker books, after our lift staff, but, primarily writing at that point. Mike: Okay. Cause I have Hellraiser number one, and I think you're listed as an editor on it. Dan: I was, I started the whole Hellraiser anthology with other folks, you know, but I was the main driver, and I think that was one of the early instigators of kind of the rebirth of horror at that time. And, you know, going back to something you said earlier, you know, for many years, I was always, pressing Archie Goodwin, who worked at Warren, and worked on Erie, and worked on all those titles. You know, why can't we do a new horror anthology and he was quite sage like and saying, yeah. It'd be great to do it, but it's not going to sell there's no hook, right? There's no connection, you know, just horror for her sake. And it was when Clive Barker [00:49:00] came into our offices, and so I want to do something with Archie Goodwin. And then the two of them said, Hellraiser can be the hook. Right. Hellraiser can be the way in to sort of create an anthology series, have an identifiable icon, and then we developed out from there with Clive, with a couple of other folks Erik Saltzgaber, Phil Nutman, myself, Archie Goodwin, like what would be the world? And then the Bible that would actually give you enough, breadth and width to play with these characters that wouldn't just always be puzzle box, pinhead, puzzle box, pinhead, you know? And so we developed a fairly large set of rules and mythologies allowed for that. Mike: That's so cool. I mean, there really wasn't anything at all, like Hellraiser when it came out. Like, and there's still not a lot like it, but I - Jessika: Yeah, I was going to say, wait, what else? Mike: I mean, I feel like I've read other books since then, where there's that blending of sexuality and [00:50:00] horror and morality, because at the, at the core of it, Hellraiser often feels like a larger morality play. Dan: Now, you know, I'm going to disagree with you on that one. I mean, I think sometimes we let it slip in a morality and we played that out. But I think Hellraiser is sort of find what you want out of it. Right. You go back to the first film and it's, you know, what's your pleasure, sir? You know, it was when the guy hands up the book and the Centobites, you know, or angels to some demons, to others. So I think the book was at its best and the movies are at their best when it's not so much about the comeuppance as it is about find your place in here. Right? And that can be that sort of weird exploration of many different things. Mike: That’s cool. So going back to Terror. Because we've talked about like how much we enjoyed the character and everything, I want to take a moment to talk about each of our favorite Terror moments. Dan: Okay. Mike: So Dan, why don't you start? What was your favorite moment for Terror [00:51:00] to write or going back to read? Dan: It's a great question, one of the toughest, because again, I had such delight in the character and felt such a connection, you know, in sort of channeling him in a way I could probably find you five, ten moments per issue, but, I actually think it was the it's in the first issue. And was probably the first line that sort of came to me. And then I wrote backwards from it, which was this, got your nose bit. And you know, it's the old gag of like when a parent's playing with a child and, you know, grabs at the nose and uses the thumb to represent the nose and says, got your nose. And there's a moment in that issue where I think he's just plummeted out of a skyscraper. He's, you know, fallen down into a police car. He's basically shattered. And this cop or security guard is kind of coming over to him and, and he just reaches out and grabs the guy's nose, you know, rips his arm off or something or legs to start to replace himself and, and just says, got your nose, but it's, but it's all a [00:52:00] build from this inner monologue that he's been doing. And so he's not responding to anything. He's not doing a quip to anything. He's just basically telling us a story and ending it with this, you know, delivery that basically says the guy has a complete condescending attitude and just signals that we're in his space. Like he doesn't need to kind of like do an Arnold response to something it's just, he's in his own little world moments I always just kind of go back to that got your nose moment, which is just creepy and crazy and strange. Mike: As soon as you mentioned that I was thinking of the panel that that was from, because it was such a great moment. I think it was the mob enforcers that had shot him up and he had jumped out of the skyscraper four and then they came down to finish him off and he wound up just ripping them apart so that he could rebuild himself. All right, Jessika, how about you? Jessika: I really enjoyed the part where Terror fights with sharks in order to free Silver Sable and Luke Cage. [00:53:00] It was so cool. There was just absolutely no fear as he went at the first shark head-on and, and then there were like five huge bloodthirsty sharks in the small tank. And Terror's just like, what an inconvenience. Oh, well. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Like followed by a quippy remark, like in his head, of course. And I feel like he's such a solitary character that it makes sense that he would have such an active internal monologue. I find myself doing that. Like, you know, I mean, I have a dog, so he usually gets the brunt of it, but he, you know, it's, it is that you start to form like, sort of an internal conversation if you don't have that outside interaction. Dan: Right. Jessika: And I think a lot of us probably relate to that though this pandemic. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: But the one-liner thoughts, like, again, they make those scenes in my opinion, and it gave pause for levity. We don't have to be serious about this because really isn't life or death for Terror. We know that, and he just reminds us that constantly by just he's always so damn nonchalant. [00:54:00] Dan: Yeah. He does have a very, I'm not going to say suave, but it's, uh, you know, that sort of very, I've got this, you know, sort of attitude to it. Mike: I would, say that he's suave when he wants to be, I mean, like the last issue he's got his whiskers tied back and kind of a ponytail. Dan: Oh yeah. Jessika: Oh yeah. Dan: Richard Pace did a great job with that. Mike: Where he's dancing with his assistant in the restaurant and it's that final scene where he's got that really elegant tuxedo. Like. Dan: Yeah. It's very beautiful. Mike: I say that he can be suave and he wants to be. So I got to say like my favorite one, it was a visual gag that you guys did, and it's in issue six when he's fighting with the Punisher and he's got this, long guns sniper. And he shoots the Punisher point blank, and Terror’s, like at this point he's lost his legs for like the sixth time. Like he seems to lose his legs, like once an issue where he's just a torso waddling around on his hands. And so he shoots him the force skids him back. [00:55:00] And I legit could not stop laughing for a good minute. Like I was just cackling when I read that. So I think all of us agree that it's those moments of weird levity that really made the series feel like something special. Dan: I'm not quite sure we're going to see that moment reenacted at the Disney Pavilion, you know, anytime soon. But, that would be pretty awesome if they ever went that route. Mike: Well, yeah, so, I mean, like, let's talk about that for a minute, because one of the main ways that I consume Marvel comics these days is through Marvel unlimited, and Terror is a pretty limited presence there. There's a few issues of various Deadpool series. There's the Marvel team up that I think Robert Kirkman did, where Terror shows up and he has some pretty cool moments in there. And then there's a couple of random issues of the 1990s Luke Cage series Cage, but like the core series, the Marvel max stuff, his appearance in books like Daredevil and Wolverine, they just don't seem to be available for consumption via the. App Like I had to go through my personal [00:56:00] collection to find all this stuff. And like, are the rights just more complicated because it was published under the Epic imprint and that was create her own stuff, like do you know? Dan: No, I mean, it wouldn't be it's choice, right. He's probably perceived as a, if people within the editorial group even know about him, right. I was reading something recently where some of the current editorial staff had to be schooled on who Jack Kirby was. So, I'm not sure how much exposure or, you know, interest there would be, you know, to that. I mean, I don't know why everything would be on Marvin unlimited. It doesn't seem like it requires anything except scanning the stuff and putting it up there. But there wouldn't be any rights issues. Marvel owned the Shadow Line, Marvel owns the Terror Incorporated title, it would have been there. So I'm not really sure why it wouldn't be. And maybe at some point it will, but, that's just an odd emission. I mean, for years, which I always felt like, well, what did I do wrong? I [00:57:00] mean, you can find very little of the Daredevil work I did, which was probably very well known and very well received in, in reprints. It would be like, there'd be reprints of almost every other storyline and then there'd be a gap around some of those things. And now they started to reappear as they've done these omnibus editions. Mike: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, and going back the awareness of the character, anytime I talk about Terror to people, it's probably a three out of four chance that they won't have heard of them before. I don't know if you're a part of the comic book historians group on Facebook? Dan: I'm not. No. Mike: So there's a lot of people who are really passionate about comic book history, and they talk about various things. And so when I was doing research for this episode originally, I was asking about kind of the revamp of supernatural heroes. And I said, you know, this was around the same time as Terror. And several people sat there and said, we haven't heard of Terror before. And I was like, he's great. He's amazing. You have to look them up. But yeah, it seems like, you know, to echo what you stated, it seems like there's just a lack of awareness about the character, which I feel is a genuine shame. And that's part of the [00:58:00] reason that I wanted to talk about him in this episode. Dan: Well, thank you. I mean, I love the spotlight and I think anytime I've talked to somebody about it who knew it, I've never heard somebody who read the book said, yeah, that sucks. Right. I've heard that about other things, but not about this one, invariably, if they read it, they loved it. And they were twisted and kind of got into it. But did have a limited run, right? It was only 13 issues. It didn't get the spotlight, it was sort of promised it kind of, it came out with a grouping of other mercenary titles at the time. There was a new Punisher title. There was a Silver Sable. There was a few other titles in this grouping. Everyone was promised a certain amount of additional PR, which they got; when it got to Terror. It didn't get that it like, they pulled the boost at the last minute that might not have made a difference. And I also think maybe it was a little bit ahead of its time in certain attitudes crossing the line between horror and [00:59:00] humor and overtness of certain things, at least for Marvel, like where do you fit this? I think the readers are fine. Readers are great about picking up on stuff and embracing things. For Marvel, it was kind of probably, and I'm not dissing them. I never got like any negative, you know, we're gonna launch this title, what we're going to dismiss it. But I just also think, unless it's somebody like me driving it or the editor driving it, or Carl Potts, who was the editor in chief of that division at that point, you know, unless they're pushing it, there's plenty of other characters Right. For, things to get behind. But I think again, anytime it kind of comes up, it is definitely the one that I hear about probably the most and the most passionately so that's cool in its own way. Mike: Yeah, I think I remember reading an interview that you did, where you were talking about how there was originally going to be like a gimmick cover or a trading card or something like that. Dan: Yeah. Mike: So what was the, what was the gimmick going to be for Terror number one? Dan: What was the gimmick going to be? I don't know, actually, I if I knew I [01:00:00] can't remember anymore. But it was going to be totally gimmicky, as all those titles and covers were at the time. So I hope not scratch and sniff like a, uh, rotting bodies odor, although that would have been kind of in-character and cool. Mike: I mean, this was the era of the gimmick cover. Dan: Oh, absolutely. Mike: Like,that was when that was when we had Bloodstrike come out and it was like the thermographic printing, so you could rub the blood and it would disappear. Force Works is my favorite one, you literally unfold the cover and it's like a pop-up book. Dan: Somebody actually keyed me in. There actually was like a Terror trading card at one point. Mike: Yeah. Dan: Like after the fact, which I was like, shocked. Mike: I have that, that's from Marvel Universe series four. Dan: Yeah. we did a pretty good job with it actually. And then even as we got to the end of the run, you know, we, and you can sort of see us where we're trying to shift certain aspects of the book, you know, more into the mainstream Marvel, because they said, well, we'll give you another seven issues or something, you know, to kind of get the numbers up. Mike: Right. Dan: And they pulled the plug, you know, even before that. So, uh, that's why [01:01:00] the end kind of comes a bit abruptly and we get that final coda scene, you know, that Richard Pace did such a nice job with. Mike: Yeah. I mean, it felt like it wrapped it up, you know, and they gave you that opportunity, which I was really kind of grateful for, to be honest. Dan: Yeah. and subsequently, I don't know what's going on. I know there was that David Lapham, you know, series, you did a couple of those, which I glanced at, I know I kind of got in the way of it a little bit too, not in the way, but I just said, remember to give us a little created by credits in that, but I didn't read those. And then, I know he was in the League of Losers at one point, which just didn't sound right to me. And, uh. Mike: It's actually. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to say this cause, it's basically a bunch of, kind of like the B to C listers for the most part. And. So they're called the Legal Losers. I think it's a really good story, and I actually really like what they do with Terror. He gets, she's now Spider Woman, I think it's, Anya Corazon, but it was her original incarnation of, Arana. And she's got that spider armor that like comes out of her arm. And so she [01:02:00] dies really on and he gets her arm. And then, Dan: That's cool. Mike: What happens is he makes a point of using the armor that she has. And so he becomes this weird amalgamation of Terror and Arana’s armored form, which is great. Dan: Was that the Kirkman series? Is that the one that he did or. Mike: yeah. That was part of Marvel Team-Up. Dan: Okay. Mike: it was written by Robert Kirkman. Dan: Well, then I will, I will look it up. Mike: Yeah. And that one's on Marvel unlimited and genuinely a really fun story as I remembered. It's been a couple of years since I read it, but yeah. Dan: Very cool. Mike: So we've talked about this a little bit, but, something that we like to focus on a bit is, you know, LGBTQ+ themes in comics, because we both identify as members of the queer community. And something has been happening over the past, I don't know, five years or so, is that the queer community has really been actively making a push to reclaim the horror genre as, it's ours. And this goes back to, you know, the original Gothic horror [01:03:00] novels were a lot of times written by people who were queer before terms like homosexual were even really part of the common parlance, and you know, Oscar Wilde, things like that. And it was a way that they could weave these homoerotic themes into fiction without being identified as the other. And then, also like in horror movies, a lot of times it's queer people who wind up being the killers. There's this great meme that came out a couple of years ago, which I've included in our show notes of, you know, society saying, well, LGBT+ people are monsters. And then us saying, well, we're just going to gather up all the cryptids and monsters in our arms and say, these are ours now. And they're like, they're like, wait, no, that's not. And it's no, no, it's too late. The Babadook is gay and I'm dating Moth Man. And Dan: Is there a t-shirt that says that, because that would be pretty freaking awesome. Mike: Yeah. Dan: It's like. Mike: So you have a fairly unique perspective because, you know, we've [01:04:00] talked about how you worked on a couple of queer horror franchises. Like I feel like Hellraiser is a very queer horror franchise in its own way because there's a lot of sexuality of various types in there. And Nightbreed the argument has been made that it's a subversively queer movie because it's all about a persecuted minority that gathers together to support itself from the larger, you know, humanity society. and you were working on these comics right around the time when the Comics Code Authority was updated to allow the acknowledgement of homosexuality. And I mean, What was that like, did that even come into play with what you guys were writing at the time, because you didn't have to worry about the Comics Code. Dan: Yeah. for us to do wasn't a blip, you know, it wasn't a blip on the radar by being over an Epic land. We skirted that because our books were more mature, you know, in that way. And I, in all honesty at that point, the Marvel books were still submitted to the Comics Code, but it had become largely toothless, you know, from the late seventies, early eighties [01:05:00] onward, you know, especially when, I think it was DC, really broke precedent. I think Marvel brought precedents with some Spider-Man issues that were related to drugs. And then DC did something of the same with the Green Lantern Green Arrow books. And they said, we want to talk about these mature themes and we're not gonna, you know, be buckled under by this. So, even though when I worked on the Marvel side and we'd submit things to the Comics Code, and if they came back with something, certainly that would be responded to, but, in relationship to the Nightbreed and Hellraiser work, we never had to worry about that. But I think it's a really interesting point you make. And wasn't something I consciously thought of in that exact way. I mean, Clive is gay and, that's not a secret and I hope not in an outcome. Right. Um, and Mike: I think he was out even back then. Dan: No, he was, he was, no, he, of course he was. And he was very much who he is and just an amazing character and amazing charismatic and amazingly seductive [01:06:00] in, you know, in the work that he does. And I think we touched on this a little bit before, you know, certainly in terms of Hellraiser, at least my view was always, yeah, there's horrific things in there and of you want to interpret that as your pleasure, well, that's so whole different like mindset or worldview, but it's very open, right. Find yourself in this. And if folks have embraced, you know, the Nightbreed, you know, in that way, I think that's terrific. I don't think it was never in all my many, many, many discussions and creations, you know, around that overtly stated, well, well, this is a metaphor, you know, for the queer community or something. I think anytime anything's actually discussed that way, it’s horrible. You know, when it's, when it's literally positioned as this is a metaphor for X and therefore there's an agenda behind it to do it that way, it becomes very, like you're preaching about something in a [01:07:00] way, but it was always inherently there. Who were the heroes at Night Breed the monsters of the heroes, right? Their persecution, their outsider status. They are the normals to themselves, right? Which was the wonderful thing about it. And it was Archie Goodwin who actually sorta gave us the keys to the comics kingdom on that, because he said there are the X-Men of monsters, right. Which is the X-Men were famously the outsiders as mutants, you know, within the mainstream comics. So it was like his interpretation of like saying, this is how we make this transition into an ongoing, you know, series of stories. So, you know, I would just say that it's all there in how you want to, look at the sense that there are societal outsiders who are, of course, completely normal and worthwhile and vibrant and worth exploring and becoming part of. How many people within the Nightbreed stories. At least the, you know, I was doing, you know, want to [01:08:00] become a Nightbreed, right? Because they recognize something about themselves or they recognize they're lacking, or maybe they're doing it for the wrong reasons, it's actually in so many ways, a more appealing society because it has this range and individuality. Mike: Awesome. Well, so this kind of leads into the fact that, you know, we've been rereading Terror. Ahead of this interview, but we're obviously approaching it with 2021 perspective. Dan: Right. Mike: And something that stuck out to me is that Terror comes across a bit as somewhat gender fluid, but it's like in a utilitarian way, like given how he isn't picky about, the gender of the parts that he attaches to his body. I mean like, so you know, the metal arm that Jessika mentioned earlier, so it wasn't really explained in the core series until I think that final issue, and we get that, that two-page splash. That was the woman that he fell in love with. And he, always wanted to keep a part of her with him. Right. Dan: Right. She's hermetically sealed inside that metal hand. Mike: Right. Dan: Yeah. Mike: But I mean, [01:09:00] you know, there was the bit where at one point in the first issue where he's using the hand of an artist and his assistants like, oh, I love what you've done with your nails. And he gets this quizzical look and he's like, well, I was more concerned with, you know, its artistic abilities rather than it's cuticle care. But I mean, do you think the argument can be made these days that he is somewhat gender queer? Dan: I love this point that you made and it's something, you know, I wish I had explored more. And thinking about the character then, I think it's a fantastic consideration. I think he's more gender practical. Mike: Mm. Dan: Right? In the, in the sense of Lucy, you said sort of utilitarian, it's just, what do I need at any given moment to get my business done? But I think, and you brought this point up, Jess, when you sort of did the recap, every part didn't just come with the physical abilities, right. It wasn't just the locksmith’s, you know, hand or the artist's hand or the kickboxers leg or whatever, whatever he picked up also came with the emotional components. [01:10:00] Right? So if that hand that was doing, a sketch of somebody, because he needed to know what the map of a building looked like. He was also picking up on the fact that that hand had touched that person's child that morning and run its fingers through the hair. So he was getting this emotional charge and memory components that were kind of mixed in there, which he had to both hold at bay because he couldn't get swept away in it. Otherwise he's not gonna be able to do his business, but I think based upon what you're asking now would also just make a much more completely, robust, informed character. Right? He's experienced so much from so many genders., and so many gender interpretations and personal persona interpretations over thousands of years, you know, potentially, you know, in this way, he's gotta be incredibly balanced and also sort [01:11:00] of, why are you guys talking about this? You know, if he ever got into a conversation about it, you know, in that way, which I just love, I just love that you brought that up. And it also made me think a little bit for the first time, really about, you know, the whole sort of Theseus’ ship, you know, what is left of him. Mike: Yeah. Dan: You know?And you know what very little right. So who is Terror, you know, in that own way, what he's replaced probably pretty much everything over time. Mike: I never even thought about that. That's a great point. Jessika: Yeah. So Terrorists popped up in Marvel books since his solo series, but you didn't write them. Dan: Shame, shame! Jessika: So the appearances were, I know, oh, I'm going to have to no, heartily agree. So Terror, Marvel Max, Apocalypse Soon, Deadpool volume six, Deadpool and the Mercs for Money, and Marvel Team Up. If you were going to write a new Terror story and you could team him [01:12:00] up with anyone, what would you do? Dan: Another great question. And first I want to ask you guys a question. Why would it have to be a team up? Why wouldn't it be like a solo series? I have an idea of the team up, but I just wanted to know what led that question to, why would it have to be thinking about a team up story? Jessika: Oh, I feel like it certainly wouldn't have to be. MikeYeah. Jessika: But it would be interesting to see who think would be a good pair up these days as well. Because absolutely. I would love to see that character in his own right, you know, resurface. Cause he is interesting. He's fun. And I think there are just so many things that you could do with that character, especially nowadays. Dan: Very cool. Mike: Yeah. I'm on the same page where I would love to see just Terror in any incarnation, but like, honestly, I love the idea of just teaming up with someone established, because he's such a great comic foil in his own way. Like, he's, he, he’s. Dan: Yeah, he brings out something in the others. Mike: He's very disruptive in his own way to, you know, crib of [01:13:00] buzzword from everywhere. He says. Dan: From business. Mike: Yeah. Dan: No, actually, it was a great question. And I'm going to go pitch this to Tom Breward after this, but, it got me flashing back actually to what I'd mentioned before, when Carl called me and said, hey, we want him to be the Crypt Keeper or something like that. But, I said, you know, to myself, you know, if you were to bring it back, what if you teamed him up? And this is not commercial in any way, shape or form, but it's sort of, you know, what if you teamed him up with some other prominent Marvel horror characters, again, not the ones that already have their range, right? Like Blade and Ghost Rider, you know, who are tripping it up and stuff. But what if you pulled back that Man Thing, or the Living Mummy, or the Werewolf By Night, Morbius, you know, maybe even though Morbius is going to get some more prominent, certainly in Spider-Man or something like that, Barren Blood, you know, or whatever. And what if he basically had to establish a new Terror Incorporated? You know, he's basically got a, kind of an Ocean's 11 [01:14:00] sort of mission he has to do in some form or another, and had to bring them together. But what would be interesting, I think too, would be him in parting on all of these disenfranchised characters: you need to be operating as a business, stopped your shambling through the swamp. You know, and stop like going to dog grooming places or, you know, or bandage places, cause you're the Living Mummy or whatever, like find an angle, a disruptive angle with each of these, as he brings them together for his own, obviously self-serving purposes, you know, a way to sort of impart on them. You're not treating yourself, right. You're not treating your assets right way. Right. Here's how to invest your assets and, you know, get a return on investment, you know, as it were, and play that out. I think that could be actually a hell of a lot of fun, to have a sort of a range like that. Mike: Yeah, it’s your turn, your turn, your not a side hustle. Turn your shamble hustle and do a or side [01:15:00] shamble. Dan: Your side shamble. Yeah, I think it’s like. Mike: Yeah. Dan: like, you know Mike: Oh man. Jessika: Hashtag boss monster. Mike: Yes! Jessika: Oh, to really pull it back into nowadays. Mike: Oh God. We're. Oh man. We're totally using that in the, in the hashtags we’re using to promote this. Jessika: Yeah. Let's yeah. Hashtag boss monster. Absolutely. Dan: that would be the, that could be the title. That's the subtitle Terror Inc.: Boss Monster. Jessika: Oh my gosh. If I, if I see that come up, I'm going to know I don't, I don't need any credit, butI'm going to know. Dan: You will get credit. Mike: I was gonna say, just, just give us a thanks. That's all we care about. That's amazing. Jessika: Well, was there any one person in the industry that you aspired to work with and were you able to make that a reality? Dan: That was interesting consideration too, as you guys put it out there, I had no expectations or aspirations. I mean, getting into the business was [01:16:00] somewhat of a surprise and a gift in a lot of ways. So I sort of charged forward and I was really lucky. I mean, I've worked with a lot of A-list people, right? I worked with Bilson Kevitch and Klaus Janson and, uh, Ron Garney and Lee Weeks, and Dwayne McDuffie. And it was a co-writer on some things and, you know, Brett Blevins, Jorge Zafino, Clive Barker on these things. So, but what I thought about specifically people who I might've liked to work with and it was just too insecure to actually ask them. I always liked Bob Layton's work a lot. Um, and, JR Jr. Who we crossed over in a lot of conversations and interviews, especially in the Daredevil world, it would have been interesting to sort of reach out to him. Bernie Wrightson, who work I admired beyond, beyond, and when I finally met him, it was like, you're Bernie Wrightson. It's impossible that I'm actually talking to you. That would have been amazing to work with. And an artist I've always really admired as June [01:17:00] Brigman who was very famous for Power Pack and the, uh, Especially, and, , you know, I think that would have been a fun pairing. I don't know exactly what type of project I wouldn't put June on Terror Incorporated necessarily, but you know, these are folks who would have been a lot of fun to work with. There was a well-known artist, Paul Ryan, who, was a very workman, like presence on a lot of titles of phenomenal storyteller. And we were supposed to do some Daredevil mini-series and those got shortcut when, I got taken off Daredevil, but, would have been fun to work with. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago. Mike: Now I'm thinking about Terror and Power Pack crossing over. Dan: Well, you know, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have beat up on the kids, you know. Mike: Well, no, just. Dan: Just think of some excuse probably, you know. Mike: World's worst babysitter. Like. Dan: Exactly. Mike: Takes them on assassination missions. Like I think that'd be great. Dan: Exactly. Jessika: Gosh. Mike: Well, slightly related. did you hear the recent news? That 2K is doing a rise of [01:18:00] the Midnight Sons video game? Dan: Yeah. Yeah. I saw that and, um, and I'm a big admirer of the EXCOM, you know, games. So, I think that's encouraging that it will be And exciting well done game. It seems like they're using that approach and that kind of engine. Uh, I'm a little, not sure about what they're doing with the whole name change. You know, it goes from sons with O N S to U N S to the casts that they've sort of put in there. You know, I was corresponding with some of the other folks who, with me created Lilith and created the Rise of the Midnight Sons and saying, is this a legitimate change or is this one of these things where they skew things just enough where they don't have to pay us for certain things? Or, even if they twist it, do we still get one of those nice little thank you’s in the game credits at least. So I'm intrigued, you know, by it, but I'm also not sure where they're going to go. [01:19:00] I read an interview with the games director and he was saying something about Lilith and then the Lilin who are her children, you know, that she was trying to spread across the earth. And he's saying, Yeah. like Lilith and her, you know, her spawn, you know, it would be really, integral to a game like this. And it was like, yeah, that was the whole point of the story, the story. So maybe it was a misquote. I, understand he's actually a fan of the stories. So I'll definitely be keeping my eye out for it. Mike: It’s interesting. Dan: Yeah, it definitely is. It's a different view on the Marvel characters, probably for a lot of people who aren't exposed to it. And certainly there's all those, I don't know if the rumors are just fan bait discussion, probably more the latter, you know, where people are always talking about. Well, that's the next shift for, you know, the MCU is they're going to start introducing more. The horror stuff, you know, and you're seeing a little bit of that with Agatha, you know, Harkness and and creepy things here. And Sam [01:20:00] Raimi is directing, Mike: Doctor Strange 2. Yeah. Dan: You know, multi-verse, you know, of madness and, and, uh, does that mean we're going to start getting Ghost Riders and certainly we're getting Blade and all that kind of stuff, so. Mike: Well, yeah. Cause we had Robbie Reyes show up in Agents of Shield. Like it's, it's, actually a really good season. Dan: And it’s actually Robbie Reyes as Ghost Rider? Mike: Yeah. Yup. Yeah. So that's the whole thing is they started splitting up the Agents of Shield seasons into kind of like half season arcs that would then merge together at the end. And so I think it's season four and have Robbie Reyes has Ghost Rider and there's the Dark Hold. And, then later on there's an AI Android who shows up and is doing her world ending nonsense. And then they, and they bring Robbie Reyes back. And, I think they give the Ghost Rider essence to Agent Colson at one point, which was kind of cool. But the thing with Robbie Reyes is he [01:21:00] reveals that he was in a car wreck and then Ghost Rider on a motorcycle shows up and gives him his own Ghost Rider. Um, and so it's hinting at that larger Ghost Rider. Dan: Connection go Ghost Rider patrol. Mike: Well, yeah, because there wouldn't have been like a whole slew of Ghost Riders in Marvel after awhile, there was Johnny Blaze and Dan Catch and then there was Robbie Reyes and then they've had a couple of others. And then I think Jason Aaron did a whole thing where it showed Ghost Riders through history. Dan: Yeah. Mike: Comic books are always weird and they get convoluted and I love them. Dan: Yeah. I think like the convolution is always the thing. I mean, sometimes I'll go to Wikipedia to catch up on something and I'll stop reading after the third paragraph. Cause I can't, follow it anymore. And it's just like, what, what, what, and I'm pretty good at following stuff, but that’s so. Mike: It gets complicated real quick. Dan: Right.Right. Like I was reading about Venom, you know, the latest movie and then there was this whole detour around and [01:22:00] then Venom became an eternal universe spanning spirit, as well as like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa he was just fine when it was like a twisty little, you know, spirally symbiote, like why does he need to become a Galactus-like figure or something like that? So. Mike: I just finished reading the King in Black series, which like, I don't know if you've read it, but Donnie Case has done some really interesting stuff with both Thor and Venom. And you know, the cool thing is that they let Kates build it up for awhile. There was absolute carnage. And then they had Null who was like the God that was imprisoned by the planet of the symbiotes and then they tied it back into Captain Universe. So, it was really solid. It works out well, but it's one of those things where they had a lot of buildup. It wasn't one of those nineties moments where they're just like, here's a whole set of new powers. Dan: Yeah. Well, you know. Mike: Yeah. Dan: The nineties, you just had to move on to the next issue. So Mike: Yeah, I have a really soft spot for the eighties and [01:23:00] nineties just because . They're ridiculous in a lot of ways, but. We've talked a lot about, about the, the eighties and nineties series so far. Like, the New Guardians. That's still one of my favorite episodes that we did. Jessika: The New Guardians. Oh my gosh. What a train wreck that, yeah, no, I mean, just like in an interesting, in like surprising way. Yeah. That, that was fun. Dan: I’ll have to go back and listen to that episode. Mike: Okay, well, let's move on to Brain Wrinkles, which is the one thing that is comics or comics adjacent. That's been stuck in our heads lately. So Jess, why don't you start us off? Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. There's been a little bit more distribution drama in the comics industry recently. Mike: Hm. Jessika: Marvel recently switched distribution companies from Diamond to Penguin [01:24:00] Random House. And evidently the first week of Marvel shipments, didn't go well. Um, about 70% of the shipments either went missing or were incredibly damaged upon arrival. And we already are having an issue with, you know, distribution with the logistics of, you know, the, what was going on with the Suez Canal and, you know, a lot of different things that are delaying books getting there. So now this is just one more piece of the delay that I know that, you know, as a retailer, I'm sure it's difficult right now to begin with, with the virus and then not having your shipments come in and not being able to sell your products. I mean, I want the comics industry to do well, you know, so, they had also previously, apparently, received feedback from at least one retailer prior to Marvel's for shipment and specifications on how comics had been shipped through Diamond to kind of give Penguin a chance to, you know, grow [01:25:00] and learn a little bit. And it does feel like growing pains, but unfortunately, potentially a lack of understanding or research when they kind of started it up. However Penguin Random House has issued a statement to the businesses, apologizing for the issues and committing to finding the best packaging and delivering method to ensure consistent deliveries, of intact products. So hopefully we won't be hearing too much more about this. Mike: Oh man. I'm worried about the latest. Brian's then, cause it's been about a month since I was able to pick up my pull list. Jessika: Yeah. We'll have to ask them about that. Mike: Yeah. Uh Jessika: I have to go to Outer Planes, so I’ll have to ask them. Mike: I just got a gift certificate there for my birthday. I'm very excited. Jessika: Happy, happy, belated. Mike: I'm old now. Okay, so Dan, how about you? Dan: Oh, well, two things occurred to me when forwarded me, these questions. And thank you for that, just gave me a moment to think about it. Um, you know, one is just, I think it's a [01:26:00] little bit about distribution maybe, but I'm really interested where comics seem to be exploring different outlets online, uh, especially in the newsletter space. I'm sure you guys have been tracking, especially Substack, has been pushing very hard for comics authors to become a bigger part of their platform. You know, they're all about writers, they're all about expressing yourself. And so they've offered up, uh, apparently quite lucrative deals to some well-known comics creators to come over to their platform and create new properties there, which are going to be offered in this newsletter form TBD, whether that's just straight up PDFs or, you know, one page after another, I think they're probably going to be exploring how that is. So it's not quite web toons, certainly not like a Comixology sort of model, but it's giving a lot of these prominent creators, a pause, and then they're accepting deals and they're stepping away from high profile titles [01:27:00] like Daredevil and, Batman. And they're going over to do their own comics here where they will own the rights. They'll give a, you know, a relatively small amount back to Substack , for the subscription fees, of people signing up, but they'll own the rights and there'll be able to do whatever they want after that. If they want to go and do a published version or another PDF version here or whatever, to me that opens up amazing possibilities, not just for those prominent creators, but for how other people can think about how they want to represent comic-style stories. And I think that's been a very limiting thing as you? know, for a lot of people. How do I get it published? What can I do? Do I go only if you're the big publisher? No there's Kickstarter. Okay. I can do a Kickstarter. Maybe it gets funded, maybe it doesn’t. Maybe this is another way. So, I'm intrigued by that. You know, the other thing just sticks in my head is we're seeing a lot more obviously comic properties that are fueling culture. And, even the horror ones, you know, you were talking about upfront with these, these longer [01:28:00] titles, you know, Something's Killing the Children. The one I want to look up, you know, a Nice House on the Lake, you know, some of these other things, you know, the titles are becoming book like, and even the design of the comics or becoming book, like, the logos and such, but as these things are, then I don't know if they're consciously being done to sell them, to Netflix or some streaming service, but they're certainly a lot of them moving into these things that are fueling pop culture. Right. Sweet Tooth, you know, most recently. And I would like to see more of those properties as they make that transition, do the callbacks to the source material. Right. It's been my big, thing I've knitted on with Marvel, you know, forever. It was like, why don't you have at the end? You know, not just like for Thor will return, but until then, read the Continuing Adventures of Thor in, it costs you nothing. Right. And yet it sort of gives a call back to people who don't know about this, that this is where this idea came from. The Genesis was in this format and in this [01:29:00] medium, that allowed for some type of exploration of idea and synergy that didn't necessarily come from Hollywood. Right? Cause you get back to that. Well, the only people that can tell stories are people who were trained in, in Hollywood storytelling. And clearly since Hollywood is now mining comics like mad, it says something about the uniqueness of, you know, this friction and frisson of how these ideas are created over here. So I think that's something that would be interesting. those of us in the know, you know, should maybe spend a little more time stirring the pot to remind folks, well, yeah, that’s great annd it's terrific. And boy, that show's wonderful, but it started over here. Soapbox off. Mike: Yeah, I know. I mean, you know, we're both nodding vigorously along with us. We thinkthat's, that's, you know, I think that's a very valid perspective. Jessika: Yeah. And also that's one of the reasons we're here is to bring more comics to [01:30:00] light. Yeah, absolutely. Mike: Yeah. Okay. So. I have been thinking more about how it really feels like we're in another boom period for horror comics. Like the majority of my pull list from Brian's comics and Petaluma is horror titles. And it's the ones that I was mentioning earlier. Something is Killing the Children, the Nice House on the Lake Kyron Guillen's Once and Future, which is like a dark fantasy horror take on Arthurian legends, um, which is also excellent. But I don't think we would have had the opportunity to get comics like this. If the Comics Code Authority was still around and it just, it sort of drove home to me how industries will absolutely hobble themselves creatively when they're the focus of a moral panic. And it's just, it's something that's really been kind of sticking to me as I was doing research for this episode. And again, going back to my history of video games, where we saw kind of our own version of the Comics Code, where it's the ESRV [01:31:00] ratings. And, you know, if you don't have any ESRV rating or your game had a rating higher than M they wouldn't sell it in stores. So just food for thought and how I'm really glad that the Comics Code is no longer a thing. Dan: Do you think it's even, clearly, there are still people who want to be lightning rods, there’s that person who wants to be the know Frank Wortham, and the new Joe Lieberman, who’s, you know, Senator from my home state, who I despise for the reasons, the things he did there, that that way. But, but you know, to me, it's and those people can still stir the pot, right. They can still get on some reactionary, you know, news thing and make issues. But it seems like the restrictive ability is less than it was, right. If you didn't get the Comics Code Authority back in the eighties or nineties, there was nobody else who could put that comic out. There was no other way to get your music out except through the regular publishers. No other way to get your game out, except through GameStop or whatever. But now you want [01:32:00] to piss on my game. Great. I'll put it up on Steam, right? You want to like, act like my music is incendiary. You just made my sales go up and I just put it out on Spotify, you know, or my own Patreon thing or whatever. So, Yes. So thank God there aren’t those things, but, you know, not withstanding the Handmaid's Tale becoming like real, you know, there’s more opportunity for people to be able to out with very unique visions Mike: Yes. Dan: and challenge us and excite us. Mike: I completely agree. I think, it’s one of the instances of the free market actually doing what it's supposed to and, you know, people, politicians especially love to tout the free market in all the wrong ways. But I think in terms of media and media consumption, the free market has made things arguably mainly better in terms of getting content out that would rub certain people in the wrong way. Dan: And also the freedom of distribution channels, right. I mean, the ability to get something out there that's [01:33:00] extraordinarily professional looking, but it does not require that I have to go through this narrow gate. Mike: Yeah. I mean, our show is a perfect example of that. Like, you know, 10 years ago, getting, a podcast up and running, you know, it was incredibly intimidating and these days it's pretty simple. Dan: Right. Right. Mike: granted there's still a learning curve, which if you go back and listen to our early episodes, you can hear it. It's rough. But, but I'd like to think that we sound a lot better these days, but. Dan: I think you guys sounded pretty good from episode one. Mike: Thank you. Dan: So, that is a perfect example. And you know, the ability to move something forward, you still got to do all the work around it. Right. You gotta promote it and all that kind of stuff. Jessika: I just think there's so much more room for the accessibility of finding, so that the audience has increased just in that way, you have people who have the internet, they're able to go on and search for these things. Instead of needing to have a comic book shop near them or needing to have a movie theater near them, usually people have the ability to have the internet where we're at these days, which is [01:34:00] just, it truly does open it up for the audience as well. But that also improves things for the creators Dan: Right. Jessika: In getting their name out as well. Mike: Yeah, Well, again, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to come and talk with us. This was super exciting for both of us. I mean, like I said, you're our first official guest on the show, you set the bar really high. Dan: As well I should. Well, no, thank you both. This was a really enjoyable conversation and digging into something that's a big favorite of mine as well. Jessika: Thanks for listening to Tencent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer, Mike Thompson and Dan Chichester written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson, Johnson of Bay Area Sound, and today's intro also featured Gothic Horror, from Purple Planet Music. Our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan MacDonald. And it was purchased [01:35:00] with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who you can find on Instagram @lookmomdraws. Dan: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is @tencenttakes, Jessika is @jessikawitha, and Mike is @vansau, V a N S a U. Dan, that’s me, is DG Chichester on Twitter, and you can also find me at storymaze.substack.com Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen. Mike: Stay safe out there. Jessika: And support your local comic shop.

Things are starting to come to a head in our penultimate episode for The Sandman Book Club! Brief Lives follows the story of Dream and Delirium as they search the world for Destruction, their missing brother. Meanwhile, the next volume (The World's End) brings us another anthology with hints at what to expect in the final two volumes of the series. 

----more----

Jessika: I feel like I'm very straight passing recently. So I went out and ordered by self some doc Martins, just work there. These are my doc Martins. I am bisexual. *laughs* 

Hello! Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we seek to find Destruction one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frasier, and I'm joined by my cohost, the fountain of facts, Mike Thompson. 

Mike: Hello. Hello. Hello.

Jessika: Hello, Mike. And if you, listener, are new around here, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. 

This episode, we're continuing on with the fourth episode of our book club as we discuss volume seven and eight of the Sandman series, if you haven't already listened to our previous episodes on the Sandman and want to catch up, which by the way, we highly recommend we're discussing two volumes at a time.

So go check out episode 15 for volumes one and two episode 17 for volumes three and four, and episode 19 for volumes five and a six, 

And if you're thinking "These guys are great. I would love to show my support for this amazing podcast, but how?" Well friends I'll tell you. It really helps us. If you rate and review us on the platform you're listening through, especially apple pod pass and pod chaser, it really helps with discoverability and in helping us reach other nerdlings that just might enjoy the show.

Plus it gives us that validation boost that Mike and I both being generally anxious, so need. So show us some love wherever you listen, please. And thank you. You can also tell your friends how awesome we are so they can join in on this fun. 

Mike: Yeah. Uh, I definitely thrive on words of affirmation as pointed out by Comic Book Couples Counseling in our last episode.

Jessika: Yes, please give us all the affirmation. But before we jump into our main conversation about volume seven and eight of the same. what is one cool thing you've read or watched lately? 

Mike: I recently learned that the Books of Magic, which is a bit of a spin-off to the Sandman and a bit of sequel and a bit of something totally original, is getting the omnibus treatment. So this was actually really exciting for me because I read all the trades when I was in high school and college. And I was disappointed at how it felt like the series ended halfway through the story.

And then I learned way later that DC only collected the first 50 of like 75 total issues into trades, which is why the series felt like it ended the way it did, I guess. Didn't sell that well. And so DC stopped putting them out, but DC put out an omnibus late last year, and then they're going to release another one in a couple of months.

And it's going to contain the rest of the series as well as all of the different tie in books. And I wound up getting it for over half off from Target during this big deal they had on books where it was like, buy two, get one free. And they also weirdly had it for over half off. So yeah, I snapped that fucker up.

Jessika: Hey hey tar-get. 

Mike: I know. Right. It was great. but yeah, we've been having a lot of rainstorms here in the bay area lately, and it's kind of the perfect weather to read an oversized book, featuring the adventures of Tim hunter, who is this British teenager who's due to become the most powerful magician in the current age of man and...It's a really good read still. It's one of those books from the nineties that was originally a mini series by Neil Gaiman, and then other authors picked it up and put their own spin on it, you know? And we saw that with Lucifer as well. the books of magic had a couple of different authors, but they had prolonged runs and then they had a rotating cast of artists meanwhile Lucifer had Mike Carey at the helm guiding everything for all 75 issues.

And then Neil Gaiman wrote the original miniseries for the books of magic, but then, you can still feel his fingerprints all over it, which is really cool.

Jessika: Yeah, that's neat. 

Mike: Yeah. There's some cool little Easter eggs in it. Like I think I mentioned in last episode during the brain wrinkles about how we actually see Hamnet, who was in the Midsummer Night's Dream issue of Sandman show up in the Books of Magic as the page of Titania, the queen of fairies.

Jessika: Yeah, totally validated me. 

Mike: I remember, you and I talking about that and you were like, I don't know. Did he go with Titania? And I was sitting there going, I don't know, maybe . , you know, he could have it's left open-ended no, he went with Titania, so...

Jessika: yeah. 

Mike: yeah.

Jessika: that. 

Mike: But yeah. What about you?

What have you been scoping out?

Jessika: Well, my good friend and a listener Noel -hey- gave me a reprint of a one-shot Image comic called Aria: The Heavenly Creatures, which was written by  Brian Holguin, illustrated by Jay Anacleto with Brian Haberlin, colored by Drew Passata Raymond Lee and Brian Haeberlin and letter by Francis Taka Naga.

And I, I wanted to call them all out because the illustration, this comic is absolutely phenomenal. It's gorgeous. It's just, it's a veritable work Bart on every page and it's done in a really soft and hazy almost Dreamlike way. 

Mike: Hm.

Jessika: And there aren't any harsh outlines it's detailed and very lifelike and all of the fabric just looks so like rich and realistic.

Noel was telling me that the character Lady Kildare was actually in another longstanding series, but this one had the rights removed to use the character. I believe, I'm not sure why. but it was set in the smokestack that was Victorian London. Hence some of the reasons for the haze, the story follows Kildare, who is from the fairy realm as she stumbles upon and subsequently sets to saving a fallen angel who was being held active by a man who runs a sideshow. 

And it gives off extreme queer vibes and has an absolutely strong, and bad-ass leading lady, which, you know, I'm absolutely here for.

Mike: What. 

Jessika: yeah. what? Who's heard of this? 

Mike: nobody told me this.

Jessika: what she's a feminist who would have known. 

Mike: I can't believe you're telling me this now. It's like 20 episodes. We're all alive.

Jessika: This is 21. I got ya. 

Mike: I'm quitting! I'm quitting right now! How dare you?

Jessika: You know what, Mike? Let's move on to our next topic. Our main topic. 

Mike: that series does sound rad though. I haven't heard of it before, so I'm gonna have to check it out.

Jessika: Yeah, you should. It's definitely, it's very interest. 

Mike: All right. Now we can move on.

Jessika: Okay, let's go. Oh, right. So we are moving on to volume seven and eight of the Sandman series. So volume seven is titled Brief Lives and was published 1992 and 93 and comprises volumes 41, through 49 of the Sandman series written of course, by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Jill Thompson and Vince Locke.

Mike: Yeah. And we've seen both of these artists before in the series, like Vince Locke helps with, the short story about the Wolf people. 

Jessika: That's right. 

Mike: and then Jill Thompson, Jill Thompson did the, the Chibi story that we saw 

Jessika: Oh, that's right. 

Mike: in the parliament of Rooks issue. Her chili style drawings of Death and Dream wound up becoming their own thing. It's called the Little Endless 

Jessika: Aw. 

Mike: and they did them as kind of like storybooks.

Jessika: That's so cute. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Oh, obviously I'm going to have to go down a Jill Thompson rabbit hole. 

This volume in particular is chunked into chapters.

So I'm going to break down the story in that way. 

so we begin chapter one with an older man making a long arduous Trek to put flowers on a Memorial for Johannah Constantine. We find Orpheus living his endless life of being just a head, not ahead of the game, Just, a literal head. He's been there. for so long that he uses his current helper for the helper's grandfather, as the task of Orpheus's care has been passed down the familial line. We cut to Delirium who is lost on and living on the streets because she cannot find her realm and is obsessively talking about her quote unquote lost brother.

She has what can probably be best described as an anxiety or panic attack after wandering into a club and mistaking a cute goth woman for being her sister, Death. Desire, swoops in and takes her to her realm, but refuses to help her in the search for their brother, but suggests that Delirium visit Despair in her realm And ask if she will help. Despair also refuses to assist, but we get a glance into the brother whose identity has been kept vague up to this point, which is Destruction. We get to see a brief interaction during the black plague where Despair and Destruction for both out admiring their work. Despair then ignores a mirror page, quote, unquote from her twin Desire who wanted to talk about her and their brother and the fact that Delirium is looking for him.

Mike: Yeah. And I think this is the first time that we actually see Destruction as a person. Before that he showed up in the issue where we saw Orpheus his wedding, but he was like fully clad in armor and he had like a giant helm. So it was obscuring his face.

Jessika: Yeah. And we didn't ever really get introduced necessarily. We just knew that he just was like, there.

Mike: Yeah. I can't remember if they out and out named him, you know, it probably would help if I went back and re-read the issue right now, but I think they, identified him as part of the family 

Jessika: Yeah. That's what I think it was vague. 

Mike: because he has, he has a whole, he has a whole conversation with Orpheus, after, after Eurydice dies, where he kind of consoles him.

I think, right, like I'm not misremembering.

Jessika: I don't remember now that was too many issues ago, 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: But he's definitely there. He definitely was there and I, and I think it was just like vague as to his ties. Like he was family, but. 

Mike: Yeah. And then when he's going through the town with Despair during the black plague, he's like very gregarious and like actually much more human seeming than honestly all of the other endless, he's one of those people where he's not going about his duty somberly but he's not like delighting in it either.

He's just kind of like, you know, he's just a dude.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. He like has a job and he's doing his job, but he's he still sees what effect that takes on others? 

Mike: Yeah. He feels like a much more human member of the endless than most of his siblings.

Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Say so. So chapter two brings us to Dream and his realm. Where he is once again, moping over a woman who has left him instead of dealing with the grief of his lost love interest, whom he'd only known for a scant couple months. He instead orders Lucien to have her quarters in the castle be dismantled and he's causing constant rain in the Dream realm, as well as in the Dreams of mortals and Delirium shows up and is at first identified as an intruder by the gargoyles outside of Dream's castle. 

Mike: I mean, does it really surprise us? That Dream is just the mopiest moper whoever moped? I know that Neil Gaiman wanted the characters designed to be like a mix of him when he was in his late twenties, cause he was this tall kind of gangly guy, crossed with Robert Smith from The Cure. Which, I mean, like, it feels like something from a cure Song where it's like, my woman left me and so I'm, causing it to rain all over my realm 

Jessika: Oh my gosh, causing it to flood. 

Mike: It's very much that that kind of like new wave emo vibe that I keep getting from Dream. So, you know, spot on.

Jessika: Oh, it totally is though. So Delirium shows up and is again, is at first identified as an intruder by the gargoyles outside of Dream's castle. And Dream invites Delirium inside and offers her a meal and then asks her what he can help with. And it took Delirium some time to get her request out and Dream being the super patient guy he is -just kidding, he's not- was starting to get frustrated, but Delirium finally got out her request or Dream to help her find their lost brother admitting that she had already asked Desire and Despair. Dream become suspicious that Desire had something to do with Delirium, getting that idea, but Desire swears that she had nothing to do with it and urges Dream to just kick her out and refuse to help. We get a flashback from when Delirium was still Delight and her own relationship with Destruction.

When Dream returns, he ends up offering to help Delirium try to locate Destruction through some of Destruction's friends. When told of this, Lucien tries to coax him out of going, but Dream admits that he just needs something to take his mind off his current malady and could use the distraction. Dramatics. He also leaves on a literal, "this is straight forward, What could possibly go wrong?" note. Which why, why set yourself up in that way? 

Anyway. 

Mike: I thought that was great.

Jessika: We begin chapter three with a man named Ernie CapEx, who has had a Dream where he is remembering the smell of wooly mammoths, recalling that he had lived for innumerable years, yet passing a construction zone. He is hit with an entire brick wall slash building itself that accidentally fell from overhead from an active, construction zone he was passing. As CapEx emerges from the rubble. He believed himself to have gotten out of the situation unscathed yet Death, comes, and collect him, pointing to his body, buried beneath the rebel and state that he got, what everybody gets a lifetime back. The waking world Dream has brought the leery into a travel agency in Dublin, looking for an acquaintance of Dreams after much back and forth with the woman working at the front desk. Dream finally sent the message about drinking wine in Babylon before Pharamond -now called Mr. Farrell- finally came to meet them. I love that while they were waiting in the lobby, Delirium was like making frogs, like actual animate frogs. 

Mike: Yeah. And I think that was called out where Ferrell is sitting there and he's like, what are they doing? And the receptionist is like, they're making frogs. like she's making them appear out of thin air. It was.

Jessika: So chaotic. During their meeting, Fairmont agrees to assist Dream after recalling our Dream and help them in the past, by suggesting a different profession, they asked Delirium about the list she had mentioned of their brother's friends, and she went and bought it and included the Lawyer, the Alderman, Etain of the Second Look and the Dancing Woman. we get a glimpse of a Etain who has had a Dream about a poem. She goes to write, but it escapes her. She also narrowly escaped from her apartment as it explodes from ignited gasoline. 

Mike: Yeah. She, has like a moment where she figures out that something is wrong and just needs to get out like as soon as possible.

Jessika: yeah, she had the forethought to grab her purse and then held it in front of her as she broke through the window with the force of her running body, shielding herself with purse. So bad-ass. And she was just in her underwear and a tank top at the time. So lucky for her She had her purse with her and he'd go off into Kmart, some clothes and shoes. We then pan to a man who looked suspiciously like Destruction with no facial hair. And he is trying to paint. His dog, Barnabas, comes to advise him that he is hearing an odd noise from inside a room where they find a round churning pool surrounded by framed portraits. He falls at the family room and states it is an early warning system. 

Dream and Delirium fly on a plane in first-class and then are picked up by a chauffeur in a classic convertible on their way to see apex chapter four begins with an alderman who was nervously perceiving an out of season Northern lights display, knowing that is an negative omen. He does a ritual and changes itself into a bear with a human shadow bites off the human shadow and the shadow takes the man's clothes and his name and identity, and goes back into the world. The bear remains a bear and forgets he was anything else prior. Meanwhile, back in the waking world, Dream and Delirium are being driven around What looks like a suburban neighborhood. And Dream is clearly looking for something or someone they roll up to Bernie Cape axes house, where they're informed by a son that his father is dead. Dream gets really pushy with the chauffeur who insists that she needs to stop to rest for the night before they start driving the 12 to 14 hours, you know, like mortals need sleep and all

Mike: What was the chauffeur's name again? Ruby, right?

Jessika: it was Ruby.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yup.

Mike: Yeah. She was rad. I actually really liked that. She was, she was a. Just a cool character, but then she also like actively pushed back on Dream and she's like, I don't give a fuck who you are. I don't care that my boss is calling in a favor. This is not how this works.

Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. It's like, yeah, she definitely had solid boundaries. It was awesome. So it was going to take 12 to 14 hours to get to their next destination, which per Deliriums list is Etain of the Second Look in Ohio. Dream, finally concedes to stop and they go to a motel to Russ for the night. And in the motel, we get background on Ruby, the chauffer, who is a polyglot and all around badass.

As we said, Delirium is letting herself go in order to find another one of the characters on their lists. The scene cuts to an exotic nightclub where one of the dancers is sick prior to going. While looking in the mirror. One of the other dancers who was assisting the sick dancer sees Delirium, who verifies that she is the Dancing Lady that is on the list and tells her that they will see her soon. So Dream goes back to his own realm and speaks with Lucien asking for assistance and finding some of the information they need to find their brother. Dream also recollects a situation and conversation with Destruction and the Corinthian in the 17 hundreds. But at the time Dream didn't realize that Destruction was telling him that he was going to be leaving. 

Mike: Yeah. And the Corinthian, this is the same Corinthian who we saw basically as the celebrity at the serial killer convention back in the Doll's House, right? 

Jessika: Yeah. it was the Doll's House.

Mike: Yeah. But it was before he had really gone off the deep end, but I really dug the character design where he's kind of dressed as a French dandy and he's still rocking sunglasses, like, but he's got, he's got like the giant puffy wig and I thought that was great.

Jessika: yeah, it was a nice little, a nice little. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Back in the motel Dream returns to his body, to firefighters, trying to get him out. Ruby fell asleep with a lit cigarette and the motel burned down, killing Ruby in the process, or so we're made to believe. 

Mike: Yeah, but at the same time, it's implied that someone or something is taking out all of the leads on Destruction. And they're not sure if the Endless themselves were being targeted as well.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Mike: So there's that, there's that ominous tease.

Jessika: Chapter five brings us to the search for the Dancing Lady. As well as some driving lessons for Delirium. So irresponsible. 

Mike: which we should note, they bring Matthew the Raven in to teach Delirium how to drive and Matthew is basically having a panic attack the entire time, trying to teach her the rules of the road because teaching Delirium, the rules of anything is not going to work.

Jessika: Yeah. Well, because she tried like, initially Dream was just like, yeah, go for it. And she's like all over the road, she's like swerving in and out of stuff. She's not on the correct side. And it was just a whole thing. 

Mike: no, it was, it was very good watching Matthew, just panic. And he's like sitting there squawking and flapping his wings, like crazy. It was good. I loved it.

Jessika: Oh, well. And before that, I mean, they had a... the reason the Matthew out called in was because they had a run in with highway patrol and that ended with the man being plagued with feeling like bugs were crawling on him, like forever. Forever. He always was just going to feel like that. 

Mike: Yeah. That was like, and that was basically Delirium. Just does it as a hand wave thing, which you know, I have that as something to talk about later on. But. Yeah. It's the first instance where we see Delirium being just as casually cruel as the rest of her siblings.

Jessika: Yeah. Yup. Without really realizing it, you know, it's almost like it's not even a thought, which is even worse. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So they get to the exotic dance club and Tiffany -whom Delirium had been using as a conduit- and Ishtar, who we find out as a former goddess of love. So she, at one point tells Tiffany that nobody comes to really see her dance just for TNA, but after Dream and Delirium and Matthew pay a visit with Dream, extracting nothing from who we find out is Destruction's former lover, but also warning her that she might be in danger. Ishtar goes out to the stage to dance and literally goes atomic dancing her true dance. The whole club explodes with a naked, Tiffany barely making it out alive. Desire, shows up and gives Tiffany their coat and talks about how Ishtar was thinking about her desire for Destruction up until her final moment.

Mike: Yeah. Well, something that was interesting about Tiffany is that Ishtar, we've gotten glimpses of her, where Ishtar is like taking care of her. And it's very clear that she has some mental issues going on as well as possibly a drug addiction.

She had a drug addiction, right? Cause at one point she was trying to eat some eggs and stuff that Ishtar made for her and then she wound up puking it up. And then she winds up stumbling out of the club and surviving while Desire gives her the jacket. And then I think that kind of becomes sort of like one of those revelatory moments that we always hear about with born again, Christians, which, you know, we see later on at the very end. Anyway. Moving on.

Jessika: Well, chapter six brings us back to Destruction who is trying his hand at yet another artistic endeavor. And once again, producing lackluster results, he mentions to Barnabas that now is not the time for him to Dream or else he might give up too much. Back with Dream and Delirium Dream has had enough of his sister's bullshit and basically tells her that he's fucking back off to his own realm and she needs to go back to hers. He refuses to help her any further.

Mike: he's really a Dick about it too. There's a very cold delivery to it. And it's very, again, it's very cruel, where he really talks down to her and treats her like a lesser rather than an equal.

Jessika: Yeah. It would be one thing to put up a boundary, which I would absolutely respect if you said, you know what I, for XYZ reason, I really can't help you at this point. Here's what I can do for you. Or I can support you in this way, but it's not even like that. He's just like middle fingers in the air. Like here I go back to my realm, like

Mike: Basically just fire both middle fingers off and go deuces I'm out!

Jessika: Exactly. So Delirium is very upset obviously by this treatment from her brother and his response and sulks off to her own realm. And Dream is very salty when he gets back and tells him while at a stopped dancing, which, sorry, you're no fun, but stop stomping on everybody else's rose garden. He lets Pharamond know about Ruby's demise and then Dream creates a realm for bast to come and talk. And even though he's told everyone that he is no longer looking for his brother, that is the exact question he is going to ask a very flirty Bast.

Mike: right. And this is because back in Season of the Mists, when all the different gods were vying for Hell, the gods of Egypt didn't exactly have a lot to offer, but Bast said, I do know where your brother is.

Jessika: Which I didn't really put two and two together, obviously.

Mike: No, I mean, well, I mean, here's the thing is like back then, like, you know, and that one they hinted at at where I think they had a curtains drawn over Destruction's portrait. This was something that was a very tangentially hinted at if even that much.

But it's kind of interesting to see how Neil Gaiman clearly had an idea of what he wanted to do. Like, even that far back, like we're talking at this point years back. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely the long game for the plot line. 

Mike: which, anything that you read by him, He always has these small seeds that he plants that wind up growing into something bigger. Like if you read American gods, which is, a dense tome of a book, and I guess there's the, the director's cut version that they released a couple of years ago, which is even longer, there's a number of small things that he has his like kind of tangental side stories, and then they wind up building into something much bigger towards the end.

Jessika: Oh, it's always so cool. It's such a good story teller. 

Mike: Yeah. It's just, sometimes you sit there and view people's talent and you're like, that's not fair.

Jessika: No, right? So when Dream appears back in the main part of his castle, Lucien lets him know that there is some trouble in the portrait gallery and when they get there, he discovers that one of the portrait has gone black. Dun dun dun!

Mike: Yeah, like solid black, like that's, that's all there is. 

Jessika: Solid black. Incommunicado. Death comes to see Dream and asks him what he did to Delirium. explained there so far failed by. And Death basically told him he needed to go make up with the sister. 

Mike: Yeah. I mean, like, it's basically like a smack on the back of the head. Like she is like, talking about people tired of other people's bullshit. Death is about done with dreams at this point. I think.

Jessika: Yeah. She's like stopping douche and just make up with her. Good Lord. And so Dream falls into Delirium's chaotic world, which is filled with color and random pictures and words. And you find her crying, having cut off all of her already short multicolored hair. He apologizes to her admitting the he had had ulterior motives for wanting to travel in the waking world.

As there was a woman, he knew that he wanted to try to look up while they were in that world. 

Mike: And it's implied that it's the woman that left him at the beginning who were not actually ever told who that is, right? 

Jessika: No, she gets no name. She just, she's just a plot point. You know? I love that. Yeah. No, we never, we never see her. We never interact with her. She doesn't get a name. So... too bad or not feminist on this show. 

Mike: What, what was the quote that Lisa gave us in the last episode? It was like, uh... 

Jessika: Oh, which one? God, we are, she was talking about nothing. There's nothing better than a woman who was empty. 

That was one of them. 

Mike: Yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking of. Like what better purpose for a woman than to be empty and waiting for a man to fill her hole or something? I was like, ah, god damn it Lisa.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. Oh, yup. That's just a welcome to the patriarchy. Front row seat: Every woman. Or female identifying person. So dream tells Delirium that he will help her find their brother, but in earnest. chapter seven begins with Destruction trying out yet another fine art. And this time it's the culinary arts. He is somewhere in proximity to an actual town, as he goes and picks up supplies from there and feeds the dog, Barnabas some chocolate, which don't do that, do not do that to your actual dog. 

This is a special, magical dog. 

Mike: I'm still not sure if that was done intentionally to show that Barnabas was like something else or if it was because Neil Gaiman didn't have a dog and didn't know what you are supposed to and supposed to not feed them.

Jessika: I hope it's the former. If it's the former, it's pretty cheeky. Let's just say. 

Mike: But yeah, like I legit tensed up when I read that again. I'm like... 

Jessika: I did too. 

My dog was sitting right next to me and I literally out loud was Like.

no, no, no, no. 

So. Barnabas, is it on some chocolate as he and Destruction discuss Destruction's other artistic endeavors, like sculpting, which by the way, all of these have been done with varying degrees of mediocrity so far. 

Mike: And Barnabas calls it out. Like, he is blunt and it's kinda great.

Jessika: Yup. He's a, no nonsense kind of guy for sure. back with dream of Delirium dream, besides that they must get their older brother involved and notified destiny. They have to find his realm using amaze or labyrinth. And he is of course expecting their arrival. The only advice a destiny can offer dream is something that he had already realized, but doesn't seem to want to be true: That he had to see a certain "oracle." Destiny also told him that the woman he loves has never and will never love him.

And you will see her one more time, but that you will not like the outcome. Delirium sees Dream's distress and comes to his aid. Speaking very coherently. And with her eyes the same color when bustin, she said that she was able to do that if she wanted, but that it hurt to do it for very long and that she felt like she needed to step up for him when he was down. 

Mike: I kind of love that. I thought it was great. I thought it also showed that she's actually a better quote unquote "person" than he is in a lot of ways because she did that kind of like naturally, without anyone telling her she had to.

Jessika: Yeah, it was very, it was instantaneous and it was very selfless. We then get to jump into Destiny's recollection of a story in his book of destruction, calling a family meeting, where he says he's leaving and that he does not want to be found and is no longer going to be associated with the family. Each family member reacts a little bit differently to the news, but Delirium seems to be the most visually upset. So the Oracle in question turns out to be Orpheus. So Dream ends up going there, to Orpheus's island, and in exchange for destruction's location. Dream now owes Orpheus a boon. So they've very easily traversed to destruction's location by boat, where they meet Barnabas and the formal eternal being himself. Destruction meets them with literal open arms and invites them inside with beast that he has made himself, which by the way, they were just sticks about that. They didn't even want It that 

Mike: It looked really good too. Like it looked like a really good meal. 

Jessika: It looked like the one thing he was actually able to do well, 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: like he finally figured it out. Hey, I can cook. 

Mike: Well, I mean, speaking of someone who, you know, bakes enthusiastically people generally don't care so much about how your food looks as much as they do about how it tastes.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. So chapter eight brings us to Destruction's decision. He speaks with Delirium and Dream about the reason he had left family and the fact that he was going to exit existence s Barnabas to stay with Delirium and watch over her. 

Mike: Yeah. And then he reveals during this conversation that the reason that so many people that knew him have been dying was because of certain safeguards I think is how we phrased it. which, I mean, it's fine. I guess it also kind of, it drives home that the endless are not actually people and they don't feel things like guilt or shame, but I don't know.

I was kind of hoping the first time that I read this, that we would get some third agent involved. Someone who is actively trying to hunt down destruction or something like that, but we didn't get it.

Jessika: Nope. 

Mike: It kind of got hand-waved away. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yep. Just all right. Well that was because I didn't want anybody to find me, so I just gotta to make sure nobody finds me regardless of, you know, who gets in my way. And if 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: trying, it's gonna 

Mike: Cool. Cool bro. Cool.

Jessika: Yeah. Pretty rough. Destruction torches the portraits and the gallery.

He shrinks his sword and pool, which was rad by the way. And he puts them in, he puts them on a stick in a polka-dot handkerchief and walks literally into the stars. 

Mike: Yeah. It's that like hobo stick from turn of the century artwork. Whereas the people who were just wandering the rails and stuff and they have a stick and then they have their belongings in, you know, in this little kind of sack tied to the end.

Jessika: Yeah. You could tell, he was like, oh, this is what this is supposed to look like. You could tell it was like an affectation, which was kind of adorable. He's been trying this whole time to be someone else, You know, and, and even when he left, he was trying to be someone else. So it's like, man, I hope you find yourself out there. 

Mike: Well, yeah, it... he's been trying to be human and this is another affectation that he's put on. To seem human.

Jessika: Dream then tells Delirium that he has to go see his son. Oh. And also that dream needed to kill Orpheus. 

Mike: That was such a great cliffhanger moment.

Jessika: I know. I actually, I literally gasped. It's like, whoa. We begin chapter nine back to Orpheus's home island where after a bit of back and forth re dream allows Delirium to accompany him, to see his son. She says her chaotic hello, and then Death double-checks with Orpheus that this is what I wanted. They have a very meaningful conversation about their relationship and life and change.

And then Dream kills  Orpheus. Dream meets up with Delirium outside where Despair has entered the scene. She shows regret and not going with delirium to find and ultimately see destruction for one final time. Delirium pieces out with Barnabas and Despair meets up with Desire who should be happy as it had accomplished what it wanted to have happen... to have Dream spill the blood of one of the family, but she is somehow still lacking proper fulfillment from the situation. Dream returns to his own realm and is unusually empathetic to everyone around them, wanting to know how people are and speaking with soft vendor, standing, leaving every person he interacts with in a state of poodle. He visits Adros who was one of the Island's caretakers and asks him to bury Orpheus in an unmarked grave. He also starts making plans to let people know that they are no longer in danger and generally thinking about the well-being of others.

And that is that they're no longer in danger of being harmed by Destruction's safeguards.

Dream washes his hands of the blood of his son, literally. And he remembers a flashback advice given after the Death of Eurydice. Throughout this volume, different characters have told dream in different ways that he is changing, evolving as a person, but he fought this notion up until the end of this chapter, where he seems to have made peace with his decision and accepting the fact that maybe has the capacity for change after all. So, Mike, what did you think about this volume? And do you have a favorite story or event?

Mike: Yeah. I'm of two minds on this. Like the plot itself feels like this very necessary one. And it's one that moves the story of Dream and his siblings forward in a pretty meaningful way. But I also found myself continuing to realize that the Endless are these very alien beings who just happened to look human.

And oftentimes they're not very kind to each other or to anyone else. And I don't really think I like most of them to be honest. I keep thinking about that moment in the club where Desire basically forces two women to fall in love and then reveals it's going to lead to obsession and stalking and I think maybe a murder. And there's just this casual cruelty that they generally seem to possess, like even Delirium. Like we talked about how she gets irritated with the highway patrolman. And then was like, you're going to think that you have bugs crawling onto your skin for the rest of your life.

We see that at the end of this volume, like how it's played out. And it's really rough. He's like in a sanitarium. And, that said I will say, I think Delirium is the most human of the endless, except maybe Death, because she feels all the same things that we do. And it's somehow driven her to her current state.

Like we never actually see, I don't think what caused her to go from Delight to Delirium. 

Jessika: Oh, interesting. Okay. 

Mike: I think it's one of those things that, that game and kind of teases out, but then just leaves us to, let us wonder about afterwards. 

Jessika: Well, damn

Mike: Yeah. And that said, I think my favorite thing about this volume was honestly, was Barnabas. Like I really enjoyed how he had that brutal honesty and was really funny. Whenever destruction would ask him to critique whatever piece of art he just attempted and then he agrees to go with delirium as I don't quite know how to describe this new role for him, I guess like a sanity check dog, as opposed to a seeing eye dog.

Jessika: Yeah. Like maybe an emotional support dog. 

Mike: Yeah. Like he, he's a cosmic emotional support dog, I guess.  

Jessika: Yeah. You gotta ramp it up and you've got like cosmic powers. You have to, like, there has to be a safeguard for that kind of a, it takes a special service dog. 

Mike: Yeah. But I felt like he was the best character throughout the whole story. He's funny. And he's weird. And he's also the companion that we all want our dogs to be. I'm not going to lie. Like I'm probably projecting onto him, but I've recently left a job that was incredibly stressful and was actually causing me to start having anxiety attacks.

And my dog, Iggy, would clue into when I was freaking out and he would just hop into my lap and calm me down. don't think we deserve dogs and Barnabas is kind of the manifestation of why that's the case. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: And on that note, I know that Jill Thompson, who was the main artists for this volume based Barnabas on a real life dog who belonged to a neighbor who she said was quote, "unkind to the animal." And so she decided to like memorialize them in a comic, which kind of adds that extra emotional punch to it. 

Jessika: yeah, which I'm sorry. Are we obsessed with Jill Thompson answer? Yes, we are. 

Mike: A hundred percent.

Jessika: Jill hit us up. 

Mike: What about you? Was there anything that really stuck out to you?

Jessika: I was really struck with the part where delirium is at dinner and asks. "Have you got any little milk chocolate people, about three inches, high men and women. I'd like some of them filled with raspberries and cream." She makes them kiss throughout the scene. And after a dream and delirium have left, there is one frame of the last two chocolate people, a man and a woman, which is described as such: "touched by her fingers, the two surviving chocolate people populate desperately losing themselves in a melting frenzy of lust spending. The last of their brief borrowed lives in a spasm of raspberry cream and fear." Something about the fact that delirium was both animating and then eating little candy people is just so intense and horrifying. 

Mike: Yup.

Jessika: And for how much of a throwaway frame it was, it really said a lot about Delirium in just that one situation, you know, even bringing it back to what you had mentioned, just that casual, like she's created a life and she doesn't even care what happens to it? She's just going to destroy it. She'll just leave it to just melt. It doesn't matter to her. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, that's, I think part of the thing with the Endless is that they're older than gods and galaxies. At some point, when you were these beings that kind of surpass already cosmic things, I don't know, maybe. you just have that perspective where you're like, Hm, you're less than an ant and it's not because I don't like you... It's just, Hmm.

Jessika: Yeah, totally. Well. We're bringing it back to the art. Do you have a favorite panel or illustration that caught your eye?

Mike: Yeah. The scene where destruction is talking with dream and delirium under that starry sky, like right before he pieces out. It's one of those things where every panel feels like this legit work of art. And in the moment when he actually pieces out, it just feels simultaneously strange and surreal and totally ordinary.

And I loved it. It's now one of the sequences that I think about when I think about Sandman, like I've got a couple of moments from, different stories that I've talked about in the past. Like in Men of Good Fortune and there's that three panel sequence with Hob Gadling and his face.

And then, this is another one. it felt like there were a bunch of different emotions wrapped up in the entire scene. And I really liked how I just, it left me feeling satisfied at the end, which, you know, you want good art to do. And then it's not exactly a favorite art moment.

But one detail that I really liked was how after Orpheus dies, which by the way, the moment that he dies is kind of cool because we don't actually see what dream did, but we see the symbol of death. And then, Orpheus is dead. But one detail that I've really liked was how after Orpheus dies and dream has blood dripping from his hands, there's a trail of red flowers, blooming where the blood hits the ground.

Jessika: Yeah. That's really sweet. It was those same red flowers that he had that Orpheus had been sending up to Johanna, Constantine's memorial

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. so I'm curious, like what about you? What was your favorite art moment?

Jessika: Well, I actually have a tie, so you're just gonna have to hear both. 

Mike: that's kind of funny because normally I'm the one where I'm like, I have two, maybe three.

Jessika: I couldn't decide this time, usually very decisive, but you know. Sandman's got me like... so in chapter five they visit the exotic dance club and the illustration was super neat. They didn't have any heavy outlines. It was lit differently, you know, the, the drawing style and it just had like shapes, comprising most of the forms, which was neat.

And it was a good way to show the distorting light that neon and other lights. You know, give off the appearance. And it also gives the vibe for the place they were in. The customers are also not looking at details and the reader won't get any, you know, the stage lights were also different from the backstage lighting, but the line work was the same, which was also an interesting choice.

It made it feel like the club was just a world of its own, with its own visual rules. 

Mike: Yeah. And the moment where Ishtar takes the stage and she kind of goes nuclear, the art style is very distinct and the way that she's drawn compared to everything else, it's like, she's no longer a concrete form. It's kind of like, she is the idea of a woman in the midst of a very real world, which I thought was a really cool way to do it.

Jessika: Yeah. I think so too. Yeah, I think so. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And my other favorite art moment is when Dream goes into Delirium's round 

Mike: Mm. 

Jessika: it's so colorful and it's a chaotic and it's hard to know where to look, to take everything in. And I found myself kind of looking at the pages far away and then up close because the little details come out when you're close, but the distance lets you see the whole big chaotic picture.

So it was really neat to portray like a really neat way to portray that vibe. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: so Mike, do you have any final thoughts about this volume before we move on? 

Mike: Yeah, I was kind of entertained at how dream threw a giant tantrum because his latest girlfriend bounced and it sort of just drove home how he's still very much a mediocre white guy in his thirties. But, but I also, I will say I did appreciate how this volume brought closure to Orpheus's story and, and how we saw some genuine emotion and regrets from Morpheus at the end of it.

There's that moment where after he's having that, recollection of telling Orpheus to live, you can see him in his, I guess his throne or his personal chair or whatever it was. And he looks really sorrowful and that's, I think, the first time that we've seen. Express any true emotion other than anger?

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: No.

Jessika: Well, let's move along to volume eight and this is titled Worlds End. And was originally published in single magazine farm as the Sandman issues, 51 through 56 in 1993, written as always by our boy, Neil Gaiman illustrated by Brian Talbot, Alex Stevens, John Watkiss, Michael Zuli, Michael Alfred, Shaya Anson Pensa and Gary Amarro. This volume is another anthology. The first story is titled the tale of two cities, and it begins with a car accident where a man named Brant Tucker was behind the wheel with the car's owner, Charlene Mooney in the passenger seat. A large black-horned animal, bigger than a car was in the middle of the road, causing him to veer off and hit a tree Brant bulls Charlene from the wreckage and carries her to find help, winding up at a place called the World's End Inn. Where there are many very curious characters, similarly waiting out the storm, but this isn't a snowstorm like brand had initially thought it is a reality storm, a centaur who is touted to be a prolific healer, tends to Charlene and after drinking a very comforting honey flavored liquid Brant falls into a short coma of 15 hours and awakens to find everyone around a table, trading stories. One of the men at the table, Mr. Geharris goes on to tell a story about a man who enjoyed wandering around the city until the night that he fell or more accurately rode a train into the dreams of his city.

After catching a glimpse of a silver gleaming path during his daily lunchtime walk, the man spaces out at work and leaves late missing his usual train. The train he catches is not the right one at all, as Dream as the only other passenger. And it doesn't make the usual stops instead, quickly zipping to an unknown destination when he arrives, all of the landmarks are familiar, but not quite recognizable.

He comes upon another older man who tells him his theory that this is the dream of a city. He finds his way out through a familiar doorway where he was later able to read out the tail to Mr. Harris stating that he's not afraid of the dreams of the cities. He's more worried about what might happen if they wake up and decide to take over. 

Mike: Yeah. And that last bit, gives, everything kind of this weird Lovecraftian kind of vibe where it's painting cities to kind of seem like they are these eldritch beings that we just happened to be living in. And I kind of dug that

Jessika: Yeah. Well, I don't know. I am of the opinion that a city is a living, breathing organism in a way. I mean, there are definite veins and arteries of traffic and, there's different inner workings that make the whole thing rent. I don't know. It just, it feels alive. 

Mike: what was that like the mortal engine series, like Peter Jackson produced a movie. That they based on the books about how after effectively, like a giant world war cities become these mobile entities and they wind up like roaming the world and harvesting smaller towns and villages for resources.

Jessika: Oh, I Like, that. 

Mike: it's a cool idea. It's one where I, I haven't read the book. I've only, I've only seen the trailers, but it looked cool. I don't know. I think it did not actually get that great a review. So I'm waiting for it to come to Netflix before I watch it

Jessika: yeah. Fair. So moving on to the second story, which is titled Cluracan's Tale, and it's told by its namesake who is similarly waiting out the store. And this is the very same thorough can who was the brother to Nuala the quote unquote gift given to dream by the Fey after all the underworld drama? 

Mike: right in season of the miss.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. His story takes place in the land of Fae where Cluracan is being told by her majesty the queen that he must act as an ambassador on her behalf and intervene in a dealing in Australia of the Plains. Evidently he had been planning to visit Nuala, but would have to set that aside to go on a mission for the queen. She gives him some instructional scrolls, which he was like, yeah, cool. I'll read those later and sets on his way. He's guided to the palace where he meets the psychopomp, who is basically trying to gain power of all the realms tax people and make himself wealthy and powerful. don't know if that sounds familiar. 

Mike: Neil Gaiman, continuing to be oddly prescient.

Jessika: Man. Cluracan bursts out an uncontrollable prediction, which lands him in jail with iron cuffs and chains. He falls into the dream realm where he sees Nuala. And when he awakes Dream is there and undoes his chains and lets him out as a favor to Nuala. Once out Cluracan spreads rumors throughout the town about the psychopomp causing the town to riot the psychopomp and his adviser.

Hide out in the crypt where he is mocking. The former leaders Cluracan comes to face the psychopomp, but before he's able to do. One of the dead bodies comes back the life and fucks up the oily little man by sending them both out of a stained glass window from way high up. Cluracan was on his way back to give his queen the news when he was caught in the storm and absolutely admits to embellishing his story.

Mike: Which I mean, that's kind of in keeping with Cluracan's character. He's very much the grandiose storyteller.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. So the next story is called Hob's Leviathan and is told by a young person who goes only by the name, Jim, while Brant and Charlene have come from June, 1993, Jim and the rest of the ship's crew came from September, 1914. 

Mike: I actually really liked that detail because it shows the fluid nature of time throughout all of these stories that we're reading.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. Not only time, but other realms, like, you know, we had reality budding up against the Fey realm and budding up against wherever the hell centaurs come from and all that good stuff, Jim had worked on several other ships and had finally started working on the Sea Witch. The captain reluctantly took on a passenger who we find out to be Hob Gadling during their merchant voyage and also find a stowaway. The stowaway is named Gunga Din, who told a very sexist story about how all women cheat and along the way they encounter a sea serpent. When Jim asks Bob, why nobody is talking about the sea serpent, Hob states that some things just go unsaid and who would believe that story anyway, and then reveals that he knows that Jim is actually a girl in the end. Jim says that there is only so much more time that this disguise will work, but for now they can still be called Jim.

Mike: Yeah. And Gunga Din I think that's a Rudyard Kipling poem from like the late 1900s...

Jessika: Oh, hence the sexism 

Mike: yeah. I mean, I don't remember the details about that. I think we read that in junior year English for high school. but Rudyard Kipling stuff it has that, unmistakable whiff of colonialism.

Jessika: Yeah. Colonialism is a thing.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Golden Boy is the title of our next story and starts with Brant being a very sleepy guy. He wakens to a sandwich and miraculously hot coffee that had been left for him starts looking around the inn. He runs into another guest who states he is a seeker and follower quote, unquote, and tells the story of the one he follows.

In another reality, we follow the growth of a boy named Prez Rickard who becomes the 19-year-old president of the United States with a pension for fixing broken timepieces. Now, Mike, off recording, we've talked about Prez before, I know this is a passion of yours. Would you like to give us some background on the character. 

Mike: Oh man. Pres. Okay. yeah, we haven't actually talked about them on this show before, and we probably should at some point, but I, but the funny thing is we did talk about him when we were spinning up the podcast that eventually morphed into Ten Cent Takes. So there's like a last episode out there with some of this info. Prez was this comic that DC did back in the early 1970s. It was following the passage of the 26th amendment, which lowered the voting age. And basically the idea was what would happen if a followup amendment allowed teenagers to get elected to office. And the core concept was there's a kid named Prez who is named so because his mom wants him to be president one day, he becomes this local hero after getting all the clocks in his town to run on time and winds up, getting elected president after kind of thwarting, a convoluted scheme by the shady political fixer named boss smiley and Boss Smiley is a weird guy.

Like I think, I think if I remember him, he's like a human person, but then he's got like a smiley face button for a face. 

Jessika: Yeah. It's weird. 

Mike: the problem is, is it's been a while since I read the original issues and I may be mixing it up with what's in here. And then also the followup reboot they did back in 2015, which we'll talk about that in a minute. But the seventies comic only lasted for four issues and it had some really wild stories.

Like one of my favorites is he fights a legless vampire on a skateboard and he goes toe to toe with this distant descendant of George Washington, who was leading an extremist militia group. He survives it and assassination attempt on him after he comes out as pro gun control.

And I need to show you that comic cover with the vampire, because he's got like, he's got a werewolf as an assistant, just like a torso and then... 

Jessika: Sounds a lot like terror. Shout out to DG Chichester. 

Mike: Oh man. All right. Take a look at this.

Jessika: No, it's on a wheelie cart. 

Mike: Uh, yeah.

Jessika: I was not. Oh no, there, there, are problems. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Oh no. Okay. Let me just paint a picture for everyone. So we have the DC logo in the corner. It says in the middle of the cover Vampire in the wWite House! Prez: First Teen President 20 cents number for March. It's got the comics code authority, of course, which we love.

So the door is being opened by what looks like, uh, some militia men, as well as a native American person. Who's very little stereotypically drawn,

Mike: I believe that's character name is Eagle free. 

Jessika: Oh no, I'm 

Mike: Hold on. 

Jessika: not loving it. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was the early 1970s. They, uh, they weren't very politically correct. 

Jessika: can't see my head shaking. It's shaking. I don't love it.

Mike: It looks like the Native American mascot that you see when a team is named the Indians.

Jessika: Yes, exactly. It's a little rough. you saying "We're too late, that creature's found the president!" and just as... he says Prez who, by the way, is wearing a red sweater, which has the presidential logo with Prez USA around it. So that's already funny. He seems to be in the oval office. Papers are flying everywhere and there's half a vampire on a rolly cart who by the looks of it has flown in and is now trying to bite his neck or strangle him or bite his shoulder and strangle him is what it looks like.

Not entirely sure what he's going to do here. So Yeah.

Mike: And that's like the final issue of Prez as well, I believe.

Jessika: It would escalate into vampirism and be like, oh, where do we go from here? 

Pres and a vampire. 

Mike: Yeah. pres everything that I love about comics and the press books are why I collect where you just find these weird, strange, silly moments, and then you can bust it out to show to people. And they just want to know all about it. And then you guys get to talk about it for awhile.

Jessika: it's the concept itself is so laughable that even if it were an option to like elect an 18 year old, like most of us would be like, I remember what I was 18. This sounds like an awful idea. This sounds like a terrible idea. 

Mike: I remember what I was like when I was 30. Good Lord. I wouldn't want me when I was 30 as president.

Jessika: That's what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm 35. I'm oh, Hey. I'm just now of presidential age. So nobody vote for me. Nobody vote for me. I don't want that job, but I thought my job was stressful. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: I have like seven employees. Like I don't, I don't want to have like the country as my, as my dealings with that's a lot. 

Mike: Yeah. But the other thing is that in 2015, DC did a mini series revival slash reboot of Prez. Where instead of Prez Rickard... Rickard still shows up and he's kind of like this wildly congressmen, and he's a lot of fun, the idea it's updated for the modern age, where basically you can vote via Twitter.

And...

Jessika: Oh, no. 

Mike: and this girl who goes viral because of like a humiliating video at our fast food job, winds up getting elected president. And it's very funny and very smart. And I can't remember who wrote it, but Ben Caldwell did the art who has this wonderful style. That's kind of a mix of cartoony and then more traditional.

And it it's really good. And it's also very affordable. You can find it very easily for not much money. In fact it might be on Hoopla. 

Jessika: Ooh, we love Hoopla. 

Mike: Yeah, let's see if it's on Hoopla.

Jessika: Hey everyone. I would like to take this time to remind everyone to support your local library, to support your local comic book. You're a local small bookstore, small artists. 

Mike: We are recording this on small business Saturday.

Jessika: We are 

Mike: So 

Jessika: that's right. 

Mike: press volume, one from 2015, by Mark Russell and Ben Caldwell and Mark Morales is available on Hoopla. Highly recommend it. It's a great read.

Jessika: Yes. Well, thank you. So back within, the story, so that was a nice background on Prez, but back to what happened within this anthology story. So press has many trials where he's tempted by that character Boss Smiley that you had mentioned, but he declined each time wanting to work for his people instead of selling out so that he could receive the rewards offered by the creepy smiling guy.

Even after his fiancé is killed and he's injured by a shooter, he still does not give into temptation after finishing his second term of office and denying want change laws so he could continue through a third, Prez hit the road and beyond some Elvis level sightings, he disappeared into the sunset. When Prez died, despite the lack of news on the subject, collectively the nation knew the tragedy that had befallen them. When Death came to retrieve Prez, he was led to gold gates in the clouds and was met by Boss Smiley. Who explains that there are other Americas, other realities that are unknown to most when Prez explains that he wants to leave to the afterlife of broken watches he was told about. Boss smiley says he will not let him leave that he has to stay with the boss. Dream shows up and puts the kibosh on Boss Smiley's plan, taking Prez out of the situation and literally disappearing in front of the boss's angry visage. Dream explains that Death was the one to call attention to this plight and that he had her the thank for his rescue. Before dream sends him off to the real afterlife, Prez gives dream a pocket watch.

And the narrator mentioned that he could be out there spreading his good word or waiting to hop back into reality, but we may never know. 

Mike: Yeah. And I really liked that one because it was, the Neil Gaiman spin on a classic obscure character. But I liked the idea of. this person who was in the DC universe, like, you know, a real in quotes character becoming an urban legend. And by that becoming a dream of a nation.

And I liked the idea of Morpheus stepping in and being like, nah, he's, he's mine.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. exactly. So our next story is called Cerements and begins of course, back at the World's End In. And the storyteller for this tale is named Petrefax an apprentice and Stacy has a true story about another member of the party he has with his master BlackRock. Both are from necropolis. We begin in a glass where clap Roth is teaching ways to get rid of a body and quizzes at daydreaming Petrefax Petrefax is assigned by black broth to go see an air burial that was scheduled. The party members of this gathering tell their own stories of the lore of death and the ceremony surrounding it.

There was a tale about a prior city that was not showing enough respect for it that ended up being destroyed and reestablished and another that followed the search for hidden place in the city that holds a book that knows many things about death and the departed Brent becomes convinced that the end is actually just them in death, but one of the other people at the end states that they can explain the Inn and magic. 

Mike: yeah, and I don't think we've seen Necropolis before now, but I know it shows up later on in the series.

Jessika: this is the first time that I had. The final story is called world's end, which shows the storm breaking and the different patrons departing to their respective homes and realms. Well sort of Charlene decided that she didn't really care for her reality anyway, and wants to stay on working at the Inn. Although Brant absolutely tries to talk her into going back with him in vain. Petrefax decided that he hadn't seen enough realms and decides to leave and go venturing with Chiron the centaur. When Brant gets back, the car is in one piece without a scratch on it. And it is registered in his name. All signs of Charlene's existence have been erased from the reality in which he lives with Brant being the only person on earth to remember Charlene. 

Mike: Yeah. And then it's revealed that he was telling the story to a bartender. And that basically when he got to their final destination, he called his work and said, I'm not coming back. Like everything has changed. And then he stays out there and, yeah, it was just, it was kinda, it was one of those ones that ended in a way that was kinda weirdly bittersweet it felt a little sad, even though most everybody got what they wanted.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Well, Mike, was there a scene or event in this volume that stood out to you? 

Mike: I mean, there's a lot, actually, this is one of the volumes that I really do. Like, but the one that I always really find myself going back to is the story about Prez, which, you know, I mean, based on our prior conversation, probably shouldn't surprise anyone. I really loved how Gaiman created something that was very true to the character, but also was a totally different spin at the same time.

And it really felt fun and thoughtful. And I enjoyed how biblical it felt in a lot of ways with Prez being this kind of Christ-like figure. And then Boss Smiley being the adversary. Like they even have the moment where Boss Smiley is trying to tempt him on top of a mountain. Yeah, like I just, I think that is one of my favorite of the Sandman short stories.

Jessika: Yeah. That doesn't surprise me about you. 

Absolutely. 

Mike: What about you?

Jessika: No, I really liked the part where Charlene went on a rampage about how there weren't any women in their stories except to further the plot line or be decoration. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: It was like, yes, girl. 

Mike: I mean, even with the one about Prez it's like he has a fiancé who gets shot and that's about it. 

Jessika: Yep, totally fridged. 

Mike: Yup.

Jessika: Yeah.

And it also, I also appreciated Gaiman for actually taking the time to point this out in the narratives. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: I mean, it would have been nice if there actually had been women in the narratives instead of him just pointing it out. You know, something to think about.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: But that is one of the things that I like about this series in general, while there are some really, really violent things that do happen to women.

There are female characters who take charge and step up and act as main characters and have more of a presence. Is it the whole series? No, but I do feel that this is at least trying to be somewhat inclusive. You know, in the way cis male author. And do so. What was your favorite art moment in this.

Mike: I think it was the funeral procession that we see towards the end, it's shown across several two page spreads and it's really striking and knowing what I know, it's really interesting with all the foreshadowing that the wake provides us with, but the way that it's presented, we don't know what's going on yet.

Like if it's, if we were first-time readers and I really enjoyed that, I enjoy the foreshadowing.

Jessika: Oh, so I'll have to wait and see, I guess. 

Mike: Yeah. it's funny. I always think that I know what you're going to say for a favorite moment or a favorite art sequence and... I think we've had one actual like Venn diagram moment and that's about it. So I'm curious to hear what yours is.

Jessika: Yeah, that is really nice that we do always have something a little bit different that we've of gravitated towards. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, I really thought the dream sequence in a Tale of Two Cities was interesting. I love how the frames real long gated on that white background instead of what we have as like mostly a black background for this graphic novel. And none of the objects are scenery were lined out. I'm sure you're getting a, any, any kind of style that's different. I really gravitate towards, none of the objects or scenery were like lined out. It was all more basic shapes of figures in big places and less detailed, but it really upped the dreaminess factor.

And it made me feel the same kind of hazy confusion that the character was describing. Things were. You couldn't possibly recognize that place because it's so vague, but it looked very familiar because we've all seen a place that looks kind of like that. And I think that was done very well. If you've ever been to a city, you, that could have been any city that you've been to. 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: And it was just like a cool combination of like the story in the illustration vibe. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. Well, would you like to move on to brain wrinkles?

Mike: yeah. I guess I can be tempted.

Jessika: Okay. Well that's good. Cause we're going to mosey anyway. So brain wrinkles are that one thing, comics or comics adjacent that just cannot get out of our heads since the last time we talked. Mike, what is it for you? 

Mike: Oh, it's actually. It's tied to our last episode of the book club, where we talked about the problematic trans representation in that book of a game of you. And, you know, I spent a long time being mad about how the promotional copy on the back of the book or in the descriptive page of Hoopla in this case, was making it seem like Wanda was a quote drag queen, which is why I thought that Wanda was actually Hal from The Doll's House.

And I wound up kind of like, irately tweeting about it and it got picked up and, and it turns out it apparently got in front of some of the right eyes, because it sounds like based on what I've heard through the grapevine, that DC comics is actually going to be adjusting that. And it turns out that the promo text for the 30th anniversary book doesn't actually have that copy, but on the pages of Amazon for ComiXology and on Hoopla for those books, the promo text on those pages themselves shows the wrong promo text and like Neil Gaiman actually chimed in on the Twitter thread.

And seemed a little salty, which I get. But, but yeah, so it hasn't changed yet, but, it sounds like it's going to, and that was actually a really big moment. It felt like one of those things where I was just like, you know, we are not a big podcast, but we managed to make things a little bit better. And, and that was a really validating feeling.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. It was super neat to have something that we had kind of noticed and discussed and found a flaw in and you know, something that was, maybe it was unintentional, but it was, it's damaging, it's still damaging regardless. And so to be able to help fix that and help me be, get rid of some fusion or transphobia surrounding the way that these things are worded, you know, regardless of the intention, you know, moving forward the right way. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, I've mentioned this numerous times, like I'm a cis white guy. life is on easy mode for me, comparatively, but actually when I was a referee with roller Derby, I got to know a number of people that were trans it gave me an awareness of just how fucking hard those people have it.

And so, you know, if anything that I do makes things better for them, I can die happy.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. So I feel about two. 

Mike: Yeah. Um, what about you?

Jessika: Well, this is going to loop into something I said earlier, just a PSA to support artists. If you're able to, support the people that make the things that you enjoy, whether That's music or visual art or books or comics, whatever you consume, please remember to support the people that are making those things for us.

The pandemic has hit us all really hard, especially the people who use social gatherings or events to sell their wares. Like here locally. I used to go to the Dickens fair every year. And in fact, the last couple of years prior to the pandemic, I went almost, if not every weekend, they were open and that's like an hour plus drive for me to get there.

So, I mean, that's some commitment.

I love that place. 

Mike: That's at the Cow Palace, right? 

Jessika: It is. Yeah.

And they are doing an event this year for me, again, I'm over an hour away. It's a drive-thru event. And I know that I will not be able to go drive an hour, sit through however long the line is going to be, and then sit through a drive through and then driving home.

I don't have that kind of car stamina, the way I was able to go to Dickinson because I would literally get there. I would stay all day. I made it worth my time. 

Mike: you know, it's funny cause I never did Dickens really, but I worked at the Ren Faire for a number of years and the original Renaissance Faire was started by the same people as Dickens. 

I still have some of the pewter mugs and stuff that I got from there.

And, there's some really talented artists selling their stuff at those places. And I can't even imagine how rough the pandemic has been for them.

Jessika: Yeah. I use my steampunk top hat that I got from Dickens. I use that as. My tip hat or my trivia that I do. So I actually use it a couple times a week. Yeah, but you know, that being said, I know that it's, it's difficult right now, but if you do have the ability, go online, a lot of folks have Patreon accounts that let you support artists monthly.

A lot of folks have, you know, Etsy shops, other things like that, any way support, just support art in whatever form you consume it in. We need to help artists so they can continue to create beauty in the world.

Mike: Yeah, especially right now during the holidays, because this episode is going to drop a couple of weeks before Christmas. 

Jessika: Depression is a thing we all need escapes. Thank you. 

Mike: Man the holidays are rough anyway.  

Jessika: Yeah.

Yeah, mine's been pretty cool this year. Luckily, so I,

hope the same for you. 

Mike: mine's going to be busy because. 

Jessika: Hm. Hm. 

Mike: I mean, we didn't, we didn't buy anything black Friday from Amazon, but we bought a house, so... 

Jessika: Which I mean, bwam bwam bwam. Congratulations. 

Mike: yeah. Thank you. But as a result, it's a, the next month is going to be extremely chaotic. And I think we're moving in like a day or two before Christmas. it's going to be busy, new job, new house.

Jessika: Ooh, that's exciting. Gets you a tiny tree. Can you just plunk it on the table of the new place? Christmas. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm trying to like, what are we covering next time? I can't remember are we talking about holidays in comics, 

Jessika: I don't know, Mike, what are we covering? 

Mike: and Comics. That's what 

we're covering. 

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: I'm making the call.

Jessika: I 

guess we're covering holidays in comics. 

Yeah. That's what Mike says. Well, what's happening. 

His episode is the next step. Oh, 

Mike: I better start writing that, I guess.

Jessika: wait. Aren't we supposed to record that in like two days?

Mike: Listen, I don't tell you how to live your life.

Jessika: I say that like, I've read the rest of the Sandman series, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: which I haven't. But I midway through nine, which is a chunky beast, by the way. 

Mike: Yeah. A lot of the sand man, it's, it's interesting how, how the length of the stories varies, you know, between for better or worse. I think, some of the stories I'm like, I don't know, like, I feel like volume seven was overly long, but at the same time, I don't know what I would have cut from it.

It all felt pretty crucial, but I was like, I. I don't know, I found myself like kind of just getting fatigued, reading through it. 

Jessika: Yeah, sure. That's how Nine's feeling so, far, we'll get there though. 

Mike: So in two weeks we'll be back and I will be leading the discussion on holiday comics 

Jessika: Awesome. 

Mike: it'll probably go in directions that we weren't expecting as they always do.

Jessika: Well, I guess until then, we'll see it in the stacks. 

Mike: Thanks for listening to Tencent takes accessibility is important to us. So text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our web.

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazier and Mike Thompson written by Jessika Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from premium beat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by Lookmomdraws on Instagram. 

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to ten cent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencent takes at gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast is Tencenttakes all one word. Jessika is Jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K and Mike has van Sao, V a N S a U

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen 

Mike: Stay safe out there.

Jessika: and support your local comic shop. 

Alright, nerds! Today we're talking about the 1988 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons from DC Comics.  Important topics covered: How DC and TSR started working together, which god would serve the best drinks in Waterdeep, and what's the cringiest spell to cast. 

----more----

***** CORRECTION: We learned after this episode dropped that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons *was* collected and reprinted in trades about a decade ago by IDW. Those trades are titled "Dungeons and Dragons: Classics" and have since gone out of print. You can buy physical copies (but they're getting pretty expensive) or you can purchase digital copies from IDW: https://www.idwpublishing.com/product/dungeons-dragons-classics-vol-1-tpb/ 

This collection unfortunately isn't available on Hoopla (nor are the republished Dragonlance Classics), but the reprinted Forgotten realms are available there: https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/11712476  Anyway, sorry about that!

***** 

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

If you want to listen to more DND content, check out Last Tavern on the Left: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/last-tavern-on-the-left/id1624361631 

It's time to boot up our robot brains and talk about Marvel's least-memorable android: The Machine Teen!----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

This week, we're taking a look at The New Guardians! DC's short-lived attempt at a topical superhero comic is... look. Just strap in. This is one of the wildest comic rides you'll ever go on. 

----more----

Mike: [00:00:00] Y'all need Satan.

Mike: Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we cringe at cursed comics, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson, and I am joined by my cohost, the taskmaster of trivia herself, Jessika Frazer.

Jessika: Ooh, it is I. 

Mike: How are you doing tonight?

Jessika: Oh, pretty good. How are you? 

Mike: Uh, you know, I, I can't complain the week is coming to an end, so it's, something I'm looking forward to is this weekend and just chillin’ out.

Jessika: Thank goodness. Yes, my BFF is in town, so that's, I'm very excited. She lives in Maine, so it's like very, very exciting that she is here. She's from around here, but just like visiting right now. So yes, I’m excited. 

Mike: That's rad. If you're [00:01:00] new to the show, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative, hopefully. What we like to do is we like to look at some of the weirdest, strangest, silliest, or coolest moments in comic books, and then talk about how they are woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history.

Today, we are going to be looking at the New Guardians, one of DC's stranger and more interesting maxi series that they produced from the 1980s. All right.

Jessika: I’m vigorously shaking my head, as you were saying. And I'm just like, here we go.

Mike: That was not a face that said my body is ready.

Jessika: No, it's, it's not ready. Like, I mean, there's no lie. 

Mike: I, I don't know. I, I don't know if anybody can truly be ready to talk about the New Guardians.[00:02:00] 

Jessika: Are we going to have to put some sort of a warning? We're absolutely gonna have to put a warning on this episode. Like if you have little ears, please, I don't care what other episode, like we throw the F bomb around if that's your thing. That's fine. Most episodes are probably okay for that. But this one, please put the little ears away. Because I’m not holding back.

Mike: We're going to have to do an extra swearing warning is what you're saying. 

Jessika: Yeah. Like we'll have almost a content warning. I mean, we're getting into some, some heavy content this episode. 

Mike: All right. Before we do that, though, we should talk about one cool thing that we've read or watched recently. So why don't you take it?

Jessika: So knowing full well that I'm very behind in my media consumption. I watched the first episode of Star Wars’ the Bad Batch. 

Mike: Oh, nice. Yeah, that looks like a really cool show. 

Jessika: It's really good. Yes. I [00:03:00] really, really liked it. The first episode was legit, almost movie length. It's 70 minutes long. 

Mike: Wow.

Jessika: And I wasn't really expecting that. So I was, as I was watching it I'm like how long if I've been watching this show? Like, I mean, it was really good. I was involved and everything, but at one point I was just like, how long has this been?

And I did the little button and I was like, oh, that makes sense. So it just was kind of. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I love how the show is recreating the bits that we don't get to see about the rise of the empire and what that looked like from the inside of like the empire itself, which is so fascinating. And the computer animation is really neat. The 3d appearance gives it like some realism and depth. 

Mike: Yeah. And from what I've seen is that animation style that they kind of started with 15 years ago with the clone wars series. That's kind of continued on, right? Yeah. I've only [00:04:00] watched a little of that, but that stuff has gotten so cool with all the different things that they've done with it. 

Jessika: It really has. So yeah, I'm excited. I'm gonna watch some more of that one. And what about you? What are you checking out? 

Mike: Well, Sarah and I watched the Suicide Squad last weekend and we really enjoyed it, but I want to talk about that later on. I started reading a new comic series that I picked up at Brian's Comics in Petaluma over the weekend, it's called Nocterra, and it's from Image comics. It's written by it's written by Scott Snyder and it's illustrated by Tony S Daniel.

And it, it gives me similar vibes to Undiscovered Country, which is another series from Image and Snyder himself. I'm only one issue in, but the core concept is that it's this post-apocalyptic world a couple of decades after something called the big PM. Basically that is permanent night’s settled over everything and all of these spooky monsters that they, they spiritually feel a little bit like the xenomorphs from Aliens, but they don't look like them.[00:05:00] 

They reside in the darkness and they can only be kept at bay with bright lights. The comic is following Val, who was a young girl when the big PM hit as she has since become a ferryman, which is, she's basically a big rig trucker, but she's transporting cargo and that can be people, or it can be other things between the different outposts of humanity.

And the first issue sees her getting hired by this mysterious guy who is all of a sudden he shows her that he is sporting a fresh sunburn. And, and that's kind of where it's going from there. It's interesting. I'm really curious to see where it goes. So, yeah, I'm gonna head back up to the shop and pick up the other issues that they have.

Jessika: Very fun. 

Mike: Yeah.

Mike: All right. Are you ready to actually do this?

Jessika: Uh, yeah. 

Mike: All right. 

Jessika: There was pain in my voice, but we’re here. [00:06:00] You gave me an out earlier to be totally, to be totally fair. 

Mike: I did. Okay. So, this episode is happening because you were the one who sent me a TikTok from Nikhil Clayton, who, first of all, he is absolutely delightful and he has a series called What the Fuck Comics, and this particular video was focused on a character called Hemogoblin, who is literally a white supremacist AIDS vampire.

And then if you want to do a. I feel like we need to play this so that our listeners can hear the delightful summary of how batshit this character was.

Jessika: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Goodness gracious. 

Hello, and welcome back to What the Fuck Comics, the show where we discuss old plot lines and characters, and ask the ever important question. What the fuck? So good news, person, right now. This little monstrosity behind me is the Hemogoblin.

He [00:07:00] was a doozy character from the 1980s, and if his name gives you a bad feeling about where we're going with this, you're probably right. He was the creation of a white supremacist group with the ultimate goal of getting rid of all non white people. How? The same way Reagan was going to do it, with the fucking thing AIDS epidemic.

Yeah, this guy is an AIDS vampire. He's got all this classic vampire powers, but with the slight exception that when he bites you, you don't become a vampire, you just get AIDS. And I stress again, the he debuted in the 1980s. This was DC's attempt at being topical. Now, thankfully he was only in a handful of issues, so he didn't have a very big effect on anything, but wait, what's that?

Sorry. Nevermind. He killed someone. Specifically this guy, Extrano. Extrano was a wizard superhero whose name may or may not have translated directly to strange. Who also just happened to be openly gay. And yes, after a fight with the Hemogoblin, he contracted AIDS and eventually died. And what happened to everyone's favorite personification of mocking tragedy?

He also died. Of AIDS [00:08:00] Because what else was going to happen? DC, what the fuck? 

Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. So, uh, you sent me that video, 

Jessika: Yeah, I did. 

Mike: What was your initial reaction to it when you first saw it?I'm curious.

Jessika: At first I thought, okay, in no way, can this be real? But we all know how awful people are. I was mouth agape in shock, honestly, and I did, I did immediately think of you. I sent it to you within a minute of seeing it because I was like, fuck, do you know about this? 

Mike: This is, this is the, the pinnacle of our friendship is that, that you saw something that terrible and you send it to me.

Jessika: Oh, [00:09:00] 

Mike: But yeah, because as soon as you sent this to me, I was like, fuck, do I know about this? I wrote about it! And I got really excited to tell you all about the New Guardians and Hemogoblin and everything else terrible about comics.

Jessika: So yes, every one I did, I opened this can of worms. So either, I'm sorry, or you're welcome, however, you're taking this.

Mike: It's a little bit of both. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I was so excited at the idea of talking about how completely bad shit this entire thing is. So.

Jessika: Oh, well let's, let's plow on. This is something. 

Mike: Yeah. Hemoglobin appeared in a comic series from the late eighties called the New Guardians, but in order to talk about the New Guardians, we needed to actually take a step back and talk about Millennium, which was this giant DC crossover comic event that the team spun out of.

So, Millennium took place [00:10:00] in early 1988, and it was the company's third crossover. Before that they had Crisis on Infinite Earths and Legends. And you, and I've talked about Crisis briefly in the past. We noted about how it was this giant crossover thing that streamlined DC’s, rather convoluted comics time.

And it created something coherent that wove together, not only classic comic characters, like the Justice Society and the Charleston comic characters that DC had recently acquired like Blue Beetle and the Question and Peacemaker, who is now in the DCEU as part of the Suicide Squad. But it also made, it made all those characters, a coherent part of the timeline with the modern DC characters, like the Justice League and Superman and Batman, et cetera, et cetera.

Crisis is still this like widely acclaimed storyline, a lot of critics and readers still feel that it is [00:11:00] arguably the best crossover ever. I've read it. I like it a lot. I think it's groundbreaking for what it did, and as a result, I think it deserves a special place in comics history.

Legends in term was Legends was fine. It's passable I've re-read it several times., and I always forget the main story except for a couple of random plot points, including that, that was what introduced us to the Suicide Squad.

And then after that we got Millennium. Millennium was written by Steve Engelhart and he's this pretty prolific comics writer who has been in the industry for a while. I think he might be retired at this point, from the seventies through the nineties, he was pretty prolific. He bounced back and forth a lot between Marvel and DC during the seventies and eighties, but the seventies is arguably when he did his best work.

He wrote a really well-known run on Dr.Strange for a couple of years from 74 to 76. And then he also co-created Shang-Chi with [00:12:00] Jim Starlin in 1973, which we're about to get a movie of. It also sounds like he did a lot of drugs during the same period. , and he's talked about it pretty openly. There's this collection of interviews and essays from across the industry called Comics Between the Panels, and he gave us this amazing quote.

Jessika: Oh, goodness. We'd rampage around New York City. There was one night when a bunch of us, including Jim Starlin went out on the town. We partied all day, then did some more acid than roamed around town until dawn, and saw all sorts of amazing things, most of which ended up in Master of Kung Fu, which Jim and I were doing at the time. 

Mike: Yeah. And master of Kung Fu is what Shang-Chi’s original series was called.

Jessika: Got it. Oh, wow. 

Mike: This little quote has absolutely nothing to do with our overall discussion, but it's such a wonderful, weird little detail about the [00:13:00] guy that I felt we had to include it.

Jessika: It gives me a really good idea of why this was as drug-addled as it was. Well, there were other reasons. 

Mike: I'm gonna show you the cover of Millennium’s first issue. And I'd like for you to paint us a word picture.

Jessika: All right.

So in red with yellow behind it, it says Millennium week one, Millennium, DC. 75 cents. And then it has all of the DC superheroes, kind of like that portrait in the Shining, like they're all kind of stacked up, back there and they're looking at something, it's called The Arrival at the bottom.

So my guess is they're looking at aliens, which is such a hot topic, every DC superhero that I can recall is in this picture. 

Mike: It is a veritable who's who? Of DC characters, 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: But I mean, they all look [00:14:00] horrified. 

Jessika: They do, they look horrified. It's all in gray tone with a little bit of green splashed on it.

Mike: Yeah. It promises something that it doesn't really deliver on. Millennium was, it was interesting because they basically were dropping every issue of the core series, I believe every week, so that's how you were getting week one, week, two, week three. Because the core series ran for two months. But it also features this really complicated plot.

So, the arrival that is advertised on the cover basically occurs when a Guardian of the Universe, the guys who run the Green Lanterns named, and I'm not making this up, Herupa, Hando Hu, all H’s, starting. And then the female equivalent of the Guardians, which I believe they are responsible for the Star Sapphires, which are the pink color, the pink equivalent, and they're all about love. Because the Green Lanterns, at this point they've established that [00:15:00] there are different rings for each color of the emotional spectrum.

The Zamoran girlfriend is Nadia Safir. Herupa and Nadia are on this quest to unlock the super potential of 10 people on earth, who they deem the Chosen, they say that these people will become immortal and they're going to guide humanity into its next stage of evolution.

But they're really vague about all of that. Essentially these people are destined to become the next group of the Guardians and kind of take over running the universe, since the Guardians and their girlfriends have decided to kind of peace out to another part of the universe and then enjoy some debatably well-earned retirement after a few billion years of running things.

Jessika: This is your problem now. 

Mike: Yeah, exactly. 

Herupa and Nadia show up to all these superheroes and then announce their mission, and then they do it in a way that's not even remotely dramatic. Basically they show up, they tell the heroes what's going on, and then the heroes agreed to help find and protect the Chosen [00:16:00] and everyone starts making plans to do so.

And then meanwhile, this plan is opposed by a group of robots that are known as the Man Hunters. The Man Hunters were the original version of the Green Lantern Corps. They were the beta test. They basically doled out justice for about half a billion years, and then they went insane.

And then the Guardians replaced them with the Green Lantern Core. I think part of the established insanity honestly just involves nursing a grudge for 3 billion years, because that's how long they've been around. And they like to hang out and just basically sulk on their hidden planet, which is apparently undetectable, and then ruin the Guardian's plans whenever they can.

Obviously they decide to wreck Herupa’s plans because they're still pissed off and they have a bunch of double agents on earth who are androids, or mind-controlled people, or traitors, who help attack the heroes and basically try to kill the Chosen.

Jessika: Wow. That's like a new level. Like, that's next [00:17:00] level petty. 

Mike: I mean, they’re, they're an entire robot race of that shitty dude who can't get over the fact that his ex has moved on and is dating somebody else.

Jessika: Oh no, we've all met that guy. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Ugh. If you haven't met that guy, you are that guy. I hate to tell you. 

Mike: Yeah, right? So the Guardians shitty robot exes wind up being a little successful. There were originally going to be 10 Chosen, but by the end of the series, only six are actually still around to receive their powers because it takes a while before they're granted their specialness. One of them was senile when the series began.

There's another guy named Janwilheim kroef. I think that's how you say his name, it’s Afrikaans, so I'm sure I'm butchering it. He gets kicked out because he's such a racist asshole from Apartheid, South Africa that nobody wants anything to do with him. [00:18:00] And then I think two of them are murdered over the course of the story, but we don't see it in the core series. 

Cause there's like 30 tie-in issues and I haven't read them all because I have shit to do. But yeah, the final roster of the New Guardians includes Jet, who is a Jamaican woman who, when we meet her is living in fascist Britain, which I think is just Margaret Thatcher's England, I've never heard it referred to as fascist England, that was a new one. 

Also she has a written accent that I'm going to call comically offensive.

Jessika: It is so, it is, I, yes, that is a great description of what that is. That's how I felt about it as well.

Mike: We also get Ram, who is a Japanese businessman who then becomes a walking computer and can talk to electronics. Gloss is this woman from the People’s Republic of China. Who can suddenly command dragon lines while showing this insane amount of cleavage. And she keeps on flirting with Ram too. It's really weird and creepy.[00:19:00] 

Betty Clawman. She was an Aborigine who eventually wound up living in the dream time. She's not really a presence in the New Guardians, but she's still officially a member. There's Extrano, who was noted in that TikTok video, who was a Peruvian gay man who develops magical abilities.

Extrano’s an interesting case, because at this point in time, the Comics Code Authority would not actually allow publishers to acknowledge his sexuality. But this dude is so flamboyant, he insists on being called auntie, and when the Guardian first shows up to announce that he is one of the chosen, he kind of flirts with him?

Jessika: There's also that part where they're talking about sex and God, I don't know why they would be having such an overt conversation about sex, but Harbinger says something about, oh, would you want to go have sex? [00:20:00] He's like, not with you, honey, or something like that.

Mike: Something to that effect. Yeah.

Jessika: To that effect, yeah. And it was like, okay. 

Mike: Yeah. No, he's very flamboyant. Like there is, I mean, come on guys. You're not fooling anyone.

Jessika: He like points his toe out in a lot of the comics, like in a, in a way that they only draw females doing like a lot of the way they have him standing is very feminine, which is interesting. Not always. 

Mike: His outfit originally, it's almost like a unisex series of magical robes, where you could see it on either a male or female character. And then his hair is very flamboyant too. He has in a lot of ways, very effeminate features, which then changes later on when they give him that costume change.

And we'll talk about that later on but you know, he's this kind of nebbish little guy and he's very flamboyant, and, if you grew up in the Bay Area, you knew a lot of people like that. So, the final, one of the Chosen, [00:21:00] if I remember right, is Tom Kalmaku, he's one of Hal Jordan, the Green Lantern’s friends, he's a mechanic for Ferris air.

He's been around since the sixties. And eventually it's revealed that he has the power to “bring out the best in people”, but, it's really vaguely defined and we don't really know what it means. And then he winds up declining to go with the team, cause he doesn't want to put his family at risk, but he's still a part of the New Guardians storyline overall.

And then after that, they were joined by a longtime villain called the Fluoronic Man, who he's got a bunch of powers over nature. And then Harbinger, who was one of the main characters during Crisis on Infinite Earths, and she's been kicking around the DC universe afterwards, but she wound up being another main character during the Millennium storyline.

So that is the TLDR summary, which is already too long, but whatever, but now we can actually talk about the New Guardian series. Like how would you describe [00:22:00] this series? If you had to sell it to someone with an elevator pitch, like, what would you say.

Jessika: Overall the New Guardians have been chosen to be Earth's protectors. They are from around the world with the obvious idea that there is a global participation and representation, their main arc is against a white supremacist who is causing all of the destruction, seen in the comics due to his desire to rid the world of all other races.

They are basically world social justice warriors who take a very active role in change. 

Mike: First of all, that's a very succinct summary of that comic. The series was originally written by Englehart, he was continuing on, and it was drawn by veteran artists, Joe Staton. Cary Bates took over writing duties with issue two and pat Broderick, who is the guy who created Tim Drake, AK Robyn, number three, eventually finished out the series as its penciler. Here's the funny thing, the series isn't [00:23:00] really all that well known or remembered by the general public, but it's kind of notorious within the comics industry and among certain collectors because its villains were so fucking bonkers.

Like in the first two issues, we get Hemogoblin who is a vampire that he's sort of a vampire. He looks like count Orloff from Nosferatu he's got the same face and everything, but he was created in a lab by Janwilheim Kroef’s scientists like Janwilheim Kroef has apparently just, I don't know exactly how he has access to all the super doomsday science, but somehow he does. So the vampire winds up coming to the United States ends up attacking the group in a dance club. If I remember right or no, right outside a dance club, that's what happened. And then he bites Jet, who is, I have to state this one of the [00:24:00] first black, super heroines in DC comics history, and also attacks Extrano.

And I don't think he bites him, but he scratches him, but he gives both of those characters HIV. 

Jessika: Mmhm. 

Mike: And then he winds up dying because this system burns itself out. Thanks to his accelerated form of aids that he has. And Harbinger it's weird. They don't quite explain how, but she's almost like cosmically sympathetic to Jet’s being. And so she winds up developing the same wound as Jed and then also developing HIV. But that goes away. 

Jessika: Yeah, they had some symbiotic link. It was very strange. 

Mike: Yeah. Symbiotic. That's the word I was looking for. It's very weird. Um, and it's, it's not really explained for a comic, for a comic series with so much exposition, there's a lot that is not well explained or defined.

Jessika: There's one point where they're obviously making [00:25:00] fun of their own exposition and they're like, hey, I know this is a lot to listen to. I appreciate you being. I was like, oh gosh. Yeah. Don't you know it. 

Mike: Yeah. Hemoglobin winds up dying from AIDS because of course he fucking does. And, and then the next issue, whisks is off to Columbia where we get to meet Snowflake, who I love Snowflake. How, how would you describe him? I'm curious.

Jessika: Oh, man. Just your way. Cause I have so heavy. He's basically just a really coked up weightlifter. 

Mike: Fair. 

Jessika: Yeah. Apparently it has something to do with the power of cocaine, heavy quotes, coursing through him that gives him his powers question, mark. I have to read this description of himself because it is just something. And he says this at one [00:26:00] point during the comic. 

Mike: Yeah. And he is also a pyrokinetic, we should note, so this quote has like extra weight to it.

Jessika: Exactly. Every cell of my being burns with the white hot ecstasy. Cocaine is my god, and I am the instrument of its will. 

And he has all these coked up people that are basically just zombies doing his way. But like nowhere, does it say why he's the instrument of drugs and not his fellows? 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Maybe he was the only one that could afford to buy a fancy spandex suit and spend all of his time getting yoked. Maybe that's it. They're like, oh yeah, this guy, this guy with privilege. Pick him. 

Mike: Well, and he, like, he like really beats the shit out of the New Guardians too. And then he gets randomly thrown into a shed with a bunch of chemicals and then it explodes and that's how you get them. It.

Jessika: Yeah. He died in [00:27:00] what was basically a drug shed explosive. 

Mike: Yeah, I'm okay. I'm sorry. But if this was a horror movie and the monster died that way, it would just be like, okay. So we're obviously going to have the guy come back in the next movie and I was waiting for that, but we never get him back again.

Jessika: I was waiting for that, also. I was waiting for that like Ninja Turtles, like here comes Shredder with his hand out of like the rubble. 

Mike: Nope. 

Jessika: Oh my gosh. So what did you think of that guy’s like Fabio white hair. That was like a point of pride, but you know, it had to take some constant maintenance, so.

Mike: Well, I mean, he had that much cocaine, what if he just sat there and used that as his like dry shampoo?

Jessika: Oh, oh that's, that's awful because the, I, yeah, that’s awful. That's awful. It's really funny too. Cause it's like they're mixing up their drugs, if they think that coke is going to cause super strengthened agility. [00:28:00] Like, what they should have had was a coked up guy that just talked really fast and wanted to party and have a bunch of sex. And like, that was his super power. 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: Like that's, that's what I've always seen portrayed in the movies and shit. People don't get really strong. That's PCP, when somebody is really crazy on like PCP or something, that's always been what I've heard, but like, that's always in very rare instances when somebody goes off the handle or something and you hear about that, but it was so ridiculous. I mean, you could literally smell the war on drugs, undertones. They were palpable.

Mike: Oh yeah. 

Jessika: I could taste them.

Mike: Reagan? Papa Reagan, is that you?

Jessika: Are you listening? I am. Oh, I mean, all it all, he was certainly memorable. I mean, maybe not for the right reasons. 

Mike: All right? [00:29:00] Well, I'm going to break this to you. Snowflame has actually like infamous in comic book history. Like I, I was looking up his first appearance today just to see what stores are selling that issue for.

Jessika: I'm sorry is for you mean like in this issue, was he in more than just this? 

Mike: No, as far as I know, that's his only issue.

Jessika: Oh God, you scared me. I was like. 

Mike: No. So, but yeah, like it's funny because people still talk about that one villain. They don't talk about the New Guardians, but they will talk about Snowflame because they, I think they find it charming, basically the, you know, just how ridiculous the villain is. But his first appearance, like is going for 50 to 75 bucks at a lot of stores these days.

Jessika: Oh. Wow.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the fact that his powers are fueled by cocaine is just, it's kind of charming, honestly, like people just sit there and like, oh, that's cute. If only we knew then what we know now. 

Jessika: Right. [00:30:00] 

Mike: Like, I don't know if you got told this growing up, but, but I was part of that DARE generation.

Jessika: Oh, Absolutely. Cops in the classroom and everything, which no, don’t do that. 

Mike: Yeah. And I remember every time the cops came to DARE and they were telling us about all the drugs, they would tell us cocaine is the worst drug out there.

Jessika: Which, lol. 

Mike: Yeah. Like I could not help, but think of that when I was reading this issue. And I mean, I guess it makes sense. Cocaine was pretty prevalent during the eighties and crack cocaine was really starting to become this huge epidemic in cities across the country by the end of the decade. But, you know, cocaine was the drug that white people knew better.

So it got focused on a lot in media, like, you know, in TV shows and comics and movies, all that stuff. And then even though Snowflame died and never came back, apparently, the issue after also deals with [00:31:00] cocaine, because like the villains are, they're like a gang of child soldiers in LA and there.

Jessika: I'm throwing my hands up because I don't even know. 

Mike: Yeah. Cause they're referred to as kids at one point, but like some of them have a lot of facial hair and it's very weird. And they stage, an attack on the New Guardians’ bungalow hotel that they're staying at. Because I guess being the Chosen if humanity doesn't pay enough to afford an Avenger’s tower, but this gang is also paid in cocaine by Snowflame’s people. 

Jessika: It is implied that they're children, But it's like, come on. You're not going to be overtaken by like a gang of children, like this is, this is not the Newsies. Like, you’re fine.

Mike: No, but the other thing is like, you know, in the eighties, that was really, again, part of the whole gang panic was the eighties and nineties. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Like, you know, that was a huge thing where, news [00:32:00] media at the time was just painting teenage gangs out to be the scourge of the country.

Jessika: Yeah, well, and they've got both the gang aspect and the drug aspect that they're like, oh, watch out every one don't want your kids involved in this. 

Mike: Fuck, yeah, they were really beaten that horse well past the point of being dead. 

Jessika: God. It was. So it was so obvious. My cheeks hurt a little bit, cause it really smacked me. 

Mike: Yeah. Well, those first three issues are really kind of the most fun, I felt because after that, the series just kind of limps along. And Jet keeps getting weaker and weaker due to the virus, progressing from HIV to AIDS, because I don't know Hemogoblin had some accelerated form of it or something.

And then she eventually dies when she sacrifices herself, helping fight off an alien invasion. She sacrifices herself because she ran out of energy because she had AIDS. 

Jessika: [00:33:00] Yeah. Yeah. And then it's not lost on me that they choose the one woman of color and the gay dude to both get AIDS out of everyone or HIV at the very least. 

Mike: Yeah, it is. We’ll, we'll talk about that later on, but it's not great.

After this point, Janwilheim Kroef becomes more and more of the central villain as the story progresses. Eventually he has his plan revealed and it's kind of weird, it's like to make white supremacy go global, which, I mean, first of all, it was already global, but he's basically trying to turn it up to 11.

The comic is not at all subtle for drawing parallels between him and Nazis. And then, I mean, it's just, it's so over the top that you almost hit that point where you feel like you're disconnecting from it, because it's just beating you over the head with this message. For the last few issues he's running around and he's got a military uniform with a black arm band and he's [00:34:00] throwing up his hand while he's talking.

And, you know, speaking about the inferior races and how he's going to unite the world under his banner of hatred. It's uh.

Jessika: Oh, yeah. he does a whole, like, you know, leader, speech, propaganda situation. I mean, it's, it was really heavy handed. 

Mike: Yeah. And then he does the thing where he kidnaps Tom Kalmaku’s girlfriend, and then she's pregnant. And he wants to surgically experiment on her unborn child. But it’s very nonsense and nothing really comes from it other than eventually he gets a hold of Tom, and then thinks that he killed him by throwing him into a pit of minorities that he's surgically experimented on or something and turned them all into cannibal mutants. 

Jessika: Get a but like, can we talk about how fucking macabre that whole fucking situation was them? [00:35:00] The fucking, like they were talking about dissecting fetuses and stuff. It was fucking wild. I mean, they had a fetus that was hooked up to stuff, like in a thing when he was in like having a dream. And it was just like, it was insane. It was a lot. 

Mike: It was really a lot, but at the same time, it was kind of boring. Like it was really gruesome and horrifying in concept, but then when they put it on the page, it was, it was all delivered with so much exposition and it wasn't actually. Moving in any way, like I was just bored.

Jessika: No, it wasn't, it wasn't, but I guess it was just, it was shocking to me that that was where they were going with it. You know what I mean? That, that, it just was a lot. And for me, I could kind of tell that it was written by men. 

Mike: Oh yeah. Totally. 

Jessika: It's just, that was just something that I wasn't really expecting, to be honest with you. 

Mike: Yeah. And I had forgotten about it up until the point where I was rereading these issues. I don't have the sales data on the series. [00:36:00] I get the impression that this was a series that was not doing well, sales wise, and the writers were just trying to do what they could to get people, to pay attention to it. And I don't know if that's the case. It's a feeling that I get in my gut, I could be way off. 

Jessika: The vibe, I hear. 

Mike: The other thing is like, aside from being really kind of gross and horrifying, this whole plot about Kroef and what he's trying to do, it just, it's kinda nonsense. It doesn't make sense.

That's the only way I can describe it. Like, I dunno, he wanted to figure out how Tom got powers or something like that, and so he was going to experiment on the baby, but then the baby was totally normal. And so he just decided to blow up his mountain base and then throw Tom into a pit to get eaten by mutants.

But then Tom developed his own super powers at the same time that Kroef was developing his and Kroef is all about.

Jessika: Latent fucking super powers. Jesus. 

Mike: Oh it’s dumb.Yeah. And [00:37:00] Kroef finds up developing the superpowers to basically bring out hatred and other people and also make them serve him while Tom becomes. 

Jessika: Which, also, unexplained? 

Mike: Yeah. And then Tom is basically Jesus and Buddha combined. He has that aforementioned like “bring out the best ability”, where he just kind of sits and meditates and then appears to people in visions and can literally hand wave away anything that he wants to it’s.

You know, viewing this through a modern lens. I'm like, oh, so he was that be best campaign by Melania Trump just made manifest. 

Jessika: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

Mike: It sounds simultaneously wholesome and absolutely incomprehensible.

I don't know how else to describe it, but yeah. And basically Tom saves the day at the very end of the series. He rescues the New Guardians from Kroef who is like mind controlling them or something. And then halfway through, they also gave Extrano a much more masculine costume [00:38:00] and he was suddenly jacked and he ran around with a crystal skull, which he would use for magic again, not well explained, whatever.

Jessika: Yep. I was what I, it felt like he got more jacked. And I was wondering about that. 

Mike: Oh no. He, 100% started to hit the gym and take his creatine.

Jessika: I was like, did the skull contain protein powder? I.

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: He was actually at a GNC this whole time. 

Mike: Well, you know, you had a side hustle. Cause superhero-ing doesn't pay the bills.

Jessika: Oh, no. Has he gotten involved in a multi-level marketing scheme? Do we need to save him from that now? 

Mike: Yeah. Probably Beach Body.

Jessika: It worked for me. 

Mike: Ugh. If you become my downline, I can get you shredded and castin’ spells too. [00:39:00] Yeah. And you know, it's, it's funny because all of the New Guardian's powers are really vague and, you know. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: It’s funny because, Extrano, when he was first announced, he's like, I'm a witch. Cause that's, that was his thing. And I'm like, okay, cool. So you’re a magic user. His magic is really, it’s not well explained what he can and can't do. It seems like half the time he's just casting illusions. And then, you know, suddenly he's able to generate a force field and levitate everybody around and whatever. Okay. 

Jessika: He's basically the plug for the leaks in the team.

Mike: Yes. Yeah. Whatever they might be. 

Jessika: Filling that void. Yep. 

Mike: What was your overall impression of this series?

Jessika: It went from goofy to intense to, it just was like, you know, we already talked about the fetus dissection conversations. Obviously I got stuck on that because holy shit, that was [00:40:00] extreme. Okay. So I did like that there were a balanced amount of women and that there was a global representation, which was definitely something I had been whining about in our last episode. So thank you. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: But the women just had absolutely nothing on, you know, Gloss’ outfit literally cut down to her pelvic bone. I mean, there was literally like two, it was two inches from her couch. 

Mike: Do you remember that dress that J-Lo wore to the Oscars like 25 years ago? That was super scandalous at the time? 

Jessika: I know the one. Yes.

Mike: Yeah. No. It's the superhero equivalent of that Oscar’s dress.

Jessika: It sure is. Yeah. Like how are you even supposed to fight when you think you're going to slip a nip or sneak a cheek, like really how? This is a prime example of those types of comics where they look like they were drawn by a 12 year old boy. 

Mike: Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. And it's funny [00:41:00] because, if I remember right, in Millennium, because she's part of the People's Republic, they're all wearing like the same kind of like very nondescript kind of burlap sack style clothing that, I mean also problematic in its own way, but it's just, it was really interesting to see her go from a very kind of almost asexual character to being this horned up Asian woman stereotype.

Jessika: Yeah. It was really intense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were at the very beginning, a few times where I was like, oh, what's going to happen next issue, but it did like, it dwindled. You know, like you said, towards the end and it just got really manic and crazy and just like, felt like a drug-induced fever dream. 

Mike: Yeah. It, I found myself comparing it to US 1, the series that we did a couple of episodes ago.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Where that was another batshit shit series, but it was fun, and [00:42:00] I never found myself really getting frustrated with it because it never felt boring. And this one, I got bored a lot.

Jessika: It was a little bit of a slog. 

Mike: But I mean, especially when characters, either the villains or the heroes were sitting there and recapping their backstory for like the 10th time, you know, it, I just don't care. Like, come on guys. You've already got me. You really think that the person reading issue number nine is not going to know what's going on. Come on.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. 

Mike: Yeah. And I got to agree with you, you know, you have to give the series a little bit of credit because the New Guardians was a diverse team and they had some interesting abilities, but everything about it just felt really cringey, for lack of a better word. It's like somebody took a list of the current social issues at the time, and then just like focus grouped the hell out of them.

And then they created a superhero comic around it. [00:43:00] And I don't know, you can tell it's hard as in the right place, but everything about the comic itself just gets more and more painful. It's kind of akin watching someone trying to be especially woke, but you're sitting there really hoping that they're going to reign in their efforts by about 50%, by the end of it.

Like, I mean, even the villains are topical. Like, the three that we talked about, we've got Janwilheim Kroef, who was part of the Apartheid government in South Africa. And this was in 1988, which is right when the apartheid was really getting put under the international media’s microscope. Basically, the series was running right before Nelson Mandela got released from jail. And then we already talked about Snowflame and how he was relevant to the time. And then Hemogoblin it was topical because the AIDS crisis was really starting to take off in America at this point in time as well.[00:44:00] But yeah, it's a. It's a cringey read.

Jessika: Yeah. I've just been shaking my head this whole time. The listeners can't hear that, but just know it was happening. 

Mike: Yeah.Yeah. You know, and it's funny cause DC doesn't really talk about the New Guardians, or the crossover they originated from, that much. Like, they acknowledge Millennium happened. They actually collected it into a graphic novel a few years ago, but it's only those core eight issues, and it really doesn't make a lot of sense because in between each issue, there is all this very crucial stuff that happens.

And so those core eight issues are almost like the recaps and the setup for what's going to happen next. So it's, you know, it's still technically canon in terms of DC lore, but it's not really discussed in polite company. And I mean, case in point, Tom Kalmaku is I think still around in the [00:45:00] DC universe, 

Jessika: Really. 

Mike: He's a long time cast member of the Green Lantern comics.

I know, I read a couple of issues that had him show up in, I want to say 2010. It might've been a little bit earlier than that. But I know that his character was even in that Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern movie.

Jessika: Oh, you know what? No, you're right. You are right. 

Mike: But his powers, as far as I know, are never mentioned again, like they just kind of were like, no, that didn't really happen. Or we don't, we don't talk about that. And then, you know, it's the same with the New Guardians. They occasionally pop up individually, but they never really get the band together.

I think they were still a team in Green Lantern comics, but then there was a villain named Entropy who wound up attacking the headquarters that they were operating out of. Cause they were hanging out in the Green Lantern headquarters on earth. And then it was assumed that they all died.

So that TikTok video was saying that, Extrano died from HIV. [00:46:00] He might have, but as far as I know, what happened was everybody assumes that he died during that attack, and he still had HIV. But I don't know at that point, I'm not as familiar with the Green Lantern and storylines from that era. 

Jet somehow reappeared as the leader of the Global Guardians, Extrano had a recent cameo in Midnighter, and he was a supporting character, and he actually was like much more normcore this time around. But he was actually openly gay this time around, which was kinda cool.

Jessika: Oh, good. 

Mike: Yeah. And then other than that, like most of the New Guardians spend a lot of time dying. So, yeah, as I mentioned, the entire team was absorbed and presumably killed by the super villain Entropy before Flash point rebooted the DC Universe, gloss was hanging out with Jet for a short while, but then she got killed by the villain, Prometheus, like, she got to decapitated. 

There's like, yeah, it is not subtle. And then Ram [00:47:00] was, again, it was one of those cameo things, but he was shown in passing as a victim of this villains' superpower death matches where it was like a super power fight club kind of thing, and it was shown that he had died, I think. But yeah, so yeah, that is the New Guardians and their, their wild ride across the DC Universe.

Jessika: Wow. I'm going to, I'm going to put on a face mask after this. I'm gonna soak my feet, gonna decompress. 

Mike: And as far as I know, there is no collected version of this maxi series, like, so, you know, basically you have to buy the individual issues, at least what I've seen, which I mean, somehow I own, I think I found the entire series as like a bundle. You know, at one of the local comic shops and they were just like, whatever, like 12 bucks get out.[00:48:00] 

Jessika: Please take these and leave. 

Mike: We will pay you to take it out.

Jessika: Oh God. It's like when stores want you to take cursed items home, they're like, we just don't want this in our possession any longer. 

Mike: Yeah. But I mean, like that said, you can find some really fun stuff in those bundle boxes. Like that's how I actually came across the whole series of US 1was at Flying Colors Comics the last time I was there. I found the first issue of Brian's, but then they had the complete collection at Flying Colors. So that was exciting. 

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: I recently found the, I think it was the complete series of Ren and Stimpy, you know, for 30 bucks, which was fun.

Jessika: Nice. And in the bundle boxes, they do like a full series? So whatever you pull it's like the whole thing?

Mike: Or, they'll, do a full run of like a certain like, you know, set of issues. 

Jessika: Nice. Oh, that's cool. 

Mike: That's why I always liked to collect for, as I like to collect for the things where it's like the fun stories or the weird moments in comic history, or just, kind of cool, interesting moments.

[00:49:00] And so you can find that stuff. If you're looking for just fun stuff to read, look at the, they used to call them like the quarter bins. I think they're now like dollar bins where, you know, they're the issues themselves are kind of ratty or they're worthless, but you can find a lot of really fun stuff, no, it's a great way to just enjoy comics if you're not collecting them to basically appreciate like your stock portfolio.

Jessika: Very cool. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Mike: All right. Well, I believe it is time or Brain Wrinkles, which is that one thing that has comics or comics adjacent that we just can't kick out of our noggin. What is stuck in your gray matter this week?

Jessika: Well, we've got another addition to the letter mafia. 

Mike: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. 

Jessika: Ooh. So per DC cannon Tim Drake, our current Robin has. A whole mission where he gets to go save a [00:50:00] longtime friend, Bernard from the villain du jour, and during which point, Bernard confesses his feelings for Drake, whom he does not know his Robin. So he's like confessing his love and hoping that he has a chance for love. And then it ends with them going on a date. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I love it. 

Mike: Yeah. It's really interesting. 

Jessika: He’s bisexual, canonically, everyone. 

Mike: Yup. I'm very curious to see how this is going to play out in the future. I know a lot of right-wing shit heal comic sites and prevalent voices across the web are mad about this. And so I'm automatically overjoyed just to hear that this ruined their day. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: Overall, the sentiment seems pretty positive to it as well, which I think speaks volumes about where we are now compared to when I started reading comics.

Jessika: Agreed. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm pretty jazzed about it. I'm curious to see where they go with it [00:51:00] and the one thing that's been really interesting is I saw the BBC was asking what this meant for movies, and I was kind of sitting there. It doesn't fucking matter. Like they're not going to put it in a movie. 

Because here's the thing that a lot of people don't quite get, is that inclusivity for the LGBTQ plus community and movies is very fleeting because major movie studios, these days have recognized the power of the international box office and they thus need to put in stuff that they can edit out for the Chinese and Russian, and a handful of other smaller markets.

So it was a big deal that in the last Star Wars movie, we get to see two guys kissing, it's a second and, you know, whatever that's going to get edited out in certain regions because they want to be able to make their millions.

Jessika: Yeah, arguably edited out in the places that matter [00:52:00] most. 

Mike: Yeah, exactly. But I am glad to see that we're getting more representation and especially bi people in particular are getting more representation in meaningful, thoughtful ways. 

Jessika: Yes, well, and bi men. There's always been that boring trope of like how amazing it is that women can be bisexual, but it's often looked upon with disgust or completely disregarded when it comes to men. And I, quite frankly, there's no difference people, like. 

Mike: Yup. 

Jessika: It's just, it's just people hating. And it's the toxic masculinity of, you know, if you're a man, you do certain things and it's just like, come on guys, you need to back the fuck off. This is why you're as, as harmed as you are in your lives, because you had all these stupid us standards you had to stick with, and couldn't fucking talk about your feelings.

And now you're just a ragey asshole. So here we are. Here we are. How do you feel? Oh, you won't tell me. [00:53:00] You don't even know. 

Mike: Yeah. God. 

Jessika: Let’s see how mucho of that I cut out. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So what about you? Um, what's wrinklin’ and around in there. 

Mike: Yeah. You know, I can't believe how much I enjoyed The Suicide Squad. I keep on thinking about it. And I mean, I knew I was going to like it because I have yet to see anything by James Gunn that I haven't liked. I've been a fan of his since he did the movie Slither back in 2005 ish, which also had Nathan Fillion and Michael Rooker in it.

Jessika: Ooh. 

Mike: Yeah, you know, he makes entertaining movies and I was not prepared for some of the things that happen in The Suicide Squad. It is absolutely wild what a [00:54:00] course correction that movie is, especially when you compare it to the first one. It kind of reminded me of Shizam and Birds of Prey.

It was just this absolutely delightful blast of chaos. And, you know, it was fun. It was refreshing. And if this is where we're going with the DCEU, as opposed to the fucking Snyder cut, then I'm fully on board with this, like, sign me up for 10 more movies. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Just no more Jokers, please. 

Jessika: I'll actually watch this one with a gusto, you know.

Mike: No. 

Jessika: Probably sooner rather than later. 

Mike: Sarah wants to watch it again. 

Jessika: Oh, okay. Now that's a shining review then. Yes. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm really excited to talk with you about how batshit it is, and like the stuff that they do with it, which is really in a lot of ways, it’s really brave, like what they did. They also, they kill off a lot of characters. 

Jessika: Ooh. 

Mike: I was not prepared for how many characters they were going to kill off. I knew they were gonna kill off a couple, but like. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: It's, it is astounding. [00:55:00] The choices that they made. 

Jessika: Damn. Maybe, I don't know everyone. What’s up, y’all, we might need to do an episode about this one. 

Mike: I think that that would actually be pretty cool. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Especially we could talk about how they got started, how they appeared in comics and then also how this movie in certain ways reminded me of their DC animated universe appearance.

Jessika: Yes. Okay. I, if, if it compares to that, which, you know, I love that. 

Mike: Yeah. There's a, there's an episode of Justice League Unlimited called Taskforce X, which is a really great Suicide Squad story. Like I, yeah, that'd be kind of fun. We should, we should talk about that. 

 But next time, our next episode, we are going to be starting something new. We're going to do, well, I guess it's like a book club.

Jessika: I would say it's a book club. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. So we're going to read through and talk about the Sandman series by Neil Gaiman, the core [00:56:00] Sandman series, ahead of the Netflix TV show, which is coming out supposedly sometime this year, but I'm really excited about it. And we may actually have a couple of guests as guest hosts or maybe just one who knows we'll find out.

Jessika: To be decided. 

Mike: But yeah, we'll be back in two weeks and until then, we'll see you in the stacks. 

Jessika: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes accessibility is important to us. So text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound. Our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan MacDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who you can find on Instagram as @lookmomdraws.

Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, [00:57:00] ask us questions, or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is tencenttakes. Jessika is @jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K. And Mike is @vansau, V A N S A U. 

Mike: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen.

Jessika: Stay safe out there.

Mike: And support your local comic shop. 

Once again, we're walking the moonlit path of dreams and discussing The Sandman. In this episode, we're talking about the fifth and sixth volumes: A Game of You and Fables & Reflections. 

----more----

Mike: I don't think I'm getting a birthday present. I am relatively certain that they want to fire me out of a cannon into the sun

Jessika: Hello. And welcome to Ten cent takes the podcast where we cause whiplash from rapid time leaps, one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frasier and I'm joined by my cohost, the curious collector, Mike Thompson.

Mike: Man, my collection has been growing by leaps And bounds lately.

Yeah. COVID has not been kind to my closet free space. 

Jessika: Oh, well, and you recently gave me my first short box, So 

thing.

So 

Mike: I'm not sorry. 

Jessika: no, don't be, I needed a place for the, my, I looked over at my, at my bookshelf one day and went, oh no, I have a lot of single issues that are just kind of sitting on a shelf.

Mike: you know, you're a collector when you just have the random piles of single issues hanging out, 

Jessika: I just have random piles of trade paperbacks. And just like, my counter is literally covered. Not only do I have every one of the Sandman series, just like chilling on my counter. I got, um, moon girl and, uh, 

um, devil devil dinosaur, and that's just chilling. So I've just got all this stuff, like all over.

Mike: Yeah, it's a, it's insidious. It takes over.

your life. One issue at a time. 

Jessika: Well, what better way to fill a tiny house shaped like a pirate ship than with comics.

Mike: Hm. Fair. 

Jessika: If you haven't listened before the purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest weirdness and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. This episode, we are returning to our book club and we will be looking at volumes five and six of the Sandman series.

If you haven't checked out the first couple episodes of the series, I highly recommend you go back and take a lesson. It's episodes 15 and 17.

Mike: Yeah. And we're covering two volumes at a time. 

Jessika: Yes, we are. So 15 was one and two and 17 was three and four. So you're joining us for five and six. So welcome aboard.

Mike: Welcome to the deep end of the pool children. you don't get an inner tube and we don't have any water wings. Sorry. 

Jessika: There's absolutely no lifeguard on duty. We are not responsible Dulce at this time.

Mike: If You are enjoying our podcast, please go ahead and rate and review on whatever platform you're listening on. If that's an option it's especially helpful. If you can rate us on apple podcasts, there's a lot of discoverability, , or if you have overcast, you can always do a star for the episode and that'll push promotion as well.

Or if you're a comic fan and you're liking what we're talking about, and you've got some friends who you think would actually enjoy it?

as Well, please let them know any little bit helps. We really appreciate all of you who are spending your time with us.

Jessika Audio: We also want to support other podcasts that we really like in this space. So this week spotlight is on the last comic shop podcast. Here's a quick review of what to expect from them. If you want us to feature your show, go ahead and drop us off.

Jessika: 

before we leave into our main main topic, Mike, what is one cool thing you've read or watched?

Mike: I was on hooplah the other day and I came across a new series by Jeff Lemire, who is the guy who wrote Sweet Tooth along with a bunch of other excellent. But it's called Gideon Falls and they have the first five volumes on there. it's a really interesting series. It starts off feeling kind of like a horror supernatural thriller involving a Catholic priest who comes to this town and he's very quickly wrapped up in nefarious things going on and it's really creepy.

And then there's a B- story involving a guy who is in this kind of weird dystopian, urban environment, far away from the small town of Gideon falls. as the story continues, it morphs from being a, , supernatural horror murder mystery into a bit more science fiction and mad science while still keeping those original vibes.

, and also there's a lot of personal tragedy involved with the main characters. That's really cool to read too, which I mean, that's what Jeff Lemire does is he writes these things that just, they make you a lot of times feel like you need to watch Schindler's list for a pick me up. They're excellent, but they are brutal at times.

so after I read that, I then proceeded to read through the, what if omnibus that they had on hooplah and I needed something a little bit lighter to cleanse by. 

Jessika: That's very relatable. Definitely been in that situation myself.

Mike: but what about you? 

Jessika: Well, I have, I recently purchased the book herding cats, which is a black and white anthology comic by Sarah Anderson

Mike: like this is the woman who did hyperbole and

a half, right? 

Jessika: yes. Yeah. And also the one that I've spoken about before fangs.

Mike: Yeah. The love story between the vampire and the werewolf. 

Jessika: Aha. Aha. 

Mike: Yes, I listen. 

Jessika: you do, you're very good, probably multiple times because we record and then edit and relisten relisten. And

this style of comic is definitely way different than the fangs one. , it's more of a simple design and it's just, it's a really fun time to begin with. I highly recommend her stuff to begin with. So hurting is a part of her Sarah scribbles collection. And if you've seen some of those strips floating around online, they're pretty cute. each page of the book is showing like a small relatable instance about daily. And it's definitely a mood booster. If you're looking for a different palette cleanser, this is definitely it, it kept me giggling the whole way through.

And despite it's title, it's definitely not a whole book of cat Comics. I promise. Cause I'm not necessarily a cat person per se. I mean, they're fine, but I'm, I'm not a cat person, 

but you will see some in there. 

Mike: I'm more of a cat person 

than you are 

Jessika: You've truly are you are with your little dog 

cat. 

Mike: the Duchess Sprocket fonts adipose. 

Jessika: Oh goodness. The names we give our pets. I swear. I think the most fun part about this book though, is that there's also a section at the back. , and it has advice to young artists and it's complete with Comics to go with the advice, which is super cute. 

Mike: Oh, that's awesome. That's really cute. 

Jessika: Yeah. That's really sweet.

All right. Now onto the meat of our episode, this one's going to be a chunker buckle up everyone. So volume five of the Sandman series is titled a game of you and was published in 1991 and 92 it's composed of issues. 32 through 37 of the Sandman series and was written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Sean McManus.

Colleen Duran, Brian Talbot and Stan. 

We begin our tail in somewhere called the land and voices stadium may needed to find help and that the lane was in great peril and that they were waiting for the person, destined, to save them. Ultimately, one of the voices states their decision to go find the person that is supposed to save them.

Meanwhile, Barbie, which was a surprise for me to see her again, is a woken by her neighbor, Wanda. And it's revealed that even though she sleeps, Barbie is unable to dream. 

Mike: And we should note who Barbie and Wanda are, because the last time that we saw them was in the doll's house and Barbie at the time had been married to a yuppie named Ken who, when the dream, the vortex, was that what it was the dream for techs. 

Jessika: Yeah, it was the dream vortex caused by Rosewall.

Mike: Yeah. So when the dream vortex hit and. Ripping everybody's dreams into one another. There's this weird kind of overlap. Ken and Barbie had some sort of a fight. We don't know exactly what about, but it was basically, I think it was tied to the fact that Ken was, he was an eighties, yuppy, Wallstreet, wannabe, and his fantasies involved, things that Barbie found kind of testable.

And then Wanda was the landlord, right? 

Jessika: No, actually that was a different person, 

but, um, Wanda. Yeah, Wanda's a new, person and she's in the new place. The Barbie moves to,

Mike: Okay. Like I totally read that wrong. I have spent, I've spent decades thinking that Wanda was the same person as, 

Jessika: I 

Mike: uh, 

Jessika: name now, 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: but he was, he was queer in the sense that he was like cross-dressing, but not necessarily like, he wasn't necessarily trans from my understanding.

Mike: Yeah. but the other thing is that on the back of the book, I think they sit there and they refer to the drag queen.

for, for this volume, 

Jessika: oh, well that's just rude. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: That's just transphobic.

Mike: yeah. Hold on. Let's, let's take a look at this now. 

Jessika: Well, I am going to yell about the transphobia, so we'll , just wrap it up now. We'll get started here.

Mike: Yeah, so it's literally the promo text on the back is taken apartment house, add in a drag queen, a lesbian couple, some talking animals, talking severed, head, a confused heroine and a deadly Kuku. So I don't think that's on Neil Gaiman. I think that's more DC comics than anything else, 

Jessika: I agree. That was whoever was writing the cover script.

Mike: but that is something that, because I read that description, I thought it was the landlord Hal from doll's house, because Hal was someone who clearly was like tight with Barbie and also had a drag persona? 

Jessika: there was a one-off statement about how pal gave her be addressed to the landlord for this place where she moved to New York. 

Mike: I missed that. Okay. 

Jessika: It's again, one of those, you know, I'm glad I could catch something you didn't. Cause it's usually the other way round.

Mike: Yeah. No,, but honestly between that and, the, uh, the promo text on the back, I thought that one had moved on from her assigned gender and was now living in her actual identity. But that was clearly not the case. And that was a little confusing to me. But the other thing is that, you know, the art style had changed.

And so I wasn't sure if it was just a new artist rendering an old character. So on me. 

Jessika: that's caught me a few times though, where I'm like, wait, the art's a little bit different. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Am I like, is this the same character? And I had to kind of suss out who the character was , which is fine. It was easy enough, 

Mike: That's kind of shocking that they sit there and still identify Wanda as a drag queen. Like these days 

Jessika: yeah. 

Mike: anniversary book. 

Jessika: Yeah. That was very disappointing to me. didn't realize that. And that just

Mike: Not great. 

Jessika: Neil, that one probably wasn't Neal. 

Awesome. It was God dammit. 

Mike: I doubt it was like, I don't, that, reeks of marketing . 

Jessika: Well, there are absolutely people who write the, the covers and whatevers.

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: So Barbie is living once again, an eclectic type living situation, but has moved to New York. Like we were saying beside Wanda, her neighbors include a lesbian couple named Hazel and Foxglove and a seemingly square bear of a young woman named Thessaly and a middle-aged man named George, who seems to keep to himself for the most part.

Barbie also gets very creative with her makeup for the day, painting a black and white checkerboard onto half of her face. And Wanda has decided that spite their lack of money, they should go shopping and at Tiffany's even,

Mike: Yeah, I really liked Arby's makeup because it felt very much like what you see on Tech-Talk these days, which is all optical illusions and cool stuff like that. So, Neil Gaiman, oddly prescient, or the 1990s.

Jessika: He's doing us good right now.

So we quickly cut to the dream realm where Dream is talking with Matthew, the Raven and his son, something happening in a far part of the dream realm, that there was some sort of transition. We zip back to Barbie and Wanda who are on the subway. A woman approaches them for change and Wanda brushes her off. While Barbie throws a of quarters in her cup, the woman becomes very upset when she sees that she is sharing the subway car with a puppy and starts yelling and panicking saying that she doesn't like dogs.

The dogs scare her and she exits the car. The first available stop then up the stairs and out of the subway onto the main road, still yelling about not liking dogs. She is immediately face to face with what looks like a giant yellow dog with a large mustache that had to be bigger than a bus. This thing was huge.

Mike: Yes, 

Jessika: And it didn't even really look like a dog, but that was probably the closest approximation to what you could call it, 

Mike: it's kind of this weird amalgamation between a Saint Bernard and a lion. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to say it. 

Mike: as we learn we have seen him before in Barbie's very kind of like Alison Wonderland meets Lord of the rings dreams that she was having before the events of adult's house. 

Jessika: Yes. And we will definitely be talking about those 

Mike: No. 

Jessika: and the woman upon seeing this huge dog what's herself and then faints meanwhile, Wanda and Barbie have made it to their stop and go forward breakfast prior to their shopping spree. After being asked about the subject, Barbie explains that she hasn't been able to dream after a weird night back where she used to live.

And after that point, things fell apart with her relationship with Ken, she said she stopped communicating with him anymore and they weren't really being intimate. And then Ken found another woman and was like bringing the other woman over, even though Barbie was there. It was super wack.

Mike: Yeah, And I mean, I dunno, good for her for, knowing right out of that situation.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. She didn't deserve that. 

Mike: No, 

Jessika: So pan back to giant dog thing who is looking super rough, it.

Mike: uh, 

Jessika: He's still trying to complete his quest, even though he's limping along, the police are trying to cordon off the area and Barbie and Wanda are passing along that same way. Barbie recognizes her friend calls him by name Martin. And as he's trying to make his way towards her, the police fire on him from multiple angles, he falls in a heap to Barbie's feet and tells her that she needs to go back.

The land needs her and gives her the serpentine, which appears to be a large pink stone in an ornate fitting on a necklace, one a pulls away as Martin dies from his injuries. She gets Barbie home and helps her into her apartment. And Barbie realizes that the necklace was from her dreams.

And then her whole room fills with blackbirds who turn white, which was, that was a wild thing.

And outside the door, George seems very interested in the situation and tries to ask Wanda, but she just brushes him off. 

Mike: Right. And it's , kind of creepy, like his demeanor is that he seems like that weird sorta infatuated in cell who's uncomfortably interested in one of his neighbors. 

Jessika: yeah, he's like at the door with his head down. He's like post Barbie. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I wish you could see me, everyone. Cause I'm just like girl.

then he goes and grabs a whole ass Raven and puts it in his mouth and swallows it whole and grinning the whole time and mentioned the.

Mike: Yeah, by that point in time, it's not surprising that he is off in a creepy, supernatural way. there've been enough weird little hints about them throughout the issue. 

Jessika: Yeah. He's just kind of a lurking most of the time, which is very strange. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: There's a whole lot of other apartment drama, of course. And , Hazel was taken advantage of while drunk and is now pregnant, but hasn't told her partner Fox glove. she's also pretty naive about how reproduction works in the first place, which is super depressing.

Like she didn't know basic things.

Mike: It felt like she was written to be unbelievably dumb about this one topic, even though she's in a queer relationship in New York, she works as a chef. And when we're first introduced to her, she seems very no bullshit because when we first meet her, it's Wanda trying to get milked for Barbie and Hazel is like, kind of. Antagonistic towards Wanda. And you're not sure if it's because she's possibly transphobic or if she's just not a morning person, because they let Wanda come in and grab some milk and it just seems like they're kind of cranky people who are not thrilled to be woken up in the morning. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Mike: But then like later on, she has these moments that are just, literally unbelievably naive and I don't think her character was written like she should have been. I don't know. I, I'm curious if, when they do an audio book of this, if they ever get around to it, how Gaiman's going to rewrite her. 

Jessika: Yeah. Same as I, I just think, yeah, there was a lot missing from this character. Just didn't feel like you said believable as a character, just in all of these different pieces to her.

So Barbie is still waking out a bit about her experience and with the birds and everything else, and Martin 10 bones, all that stuff, and tries to decompress while watching TV. And she starts drifting in and out of sleep. And by extension in and out of the dream realm, Nuala actually does show up again. I know we had said prior that we weren't sure if she does, but she does,

Mike: yeah. And new Allah was the ferry who had been given to Dream as a gift in volume four without her consent, by the way, it was kind of like surprise you now serve the dream Lord, 

Jessika: Yeah. You're not coming home with me. Sorry. This is now your problem. 

Ugh. 

Mike: which, I mean like, admittedly, we all kind of wish that we could do that with our siblings at one point or another, 

Jessika: well,

Mike: I mean, 

Jessika: my brother doesn't listen to this anymore, so it's fine.

Oh goodness. So Nuala does show up and she tries to warn Barbie. That shit is about to get complicated at which point Barbie does fall asleep and passes into the dream. cut to creepy George, who is cutting himself open. He pulls open his chest, exposing his ribs, where a bunch of blackbirds had evidently been waiting and subsequently fly out of him.

The other members of the apartment complex start having weird and awful dreams and the birds visit each sleeping individually individual thusly catches the bird, trying to harass her and with a glance at ignites in her hand, which affects George. This is the first real glimpse of the idea that thusly may not be the quiet innocuous individual that she first seemed to be.

And she then goes to see George at his apartment wielding a kitchen knife.

Mike: Yeah,

I thought that was really cool. And the thing is, is that that's actually a really good example of kind of game and doing , some misdirection because he doesn't drop any hints about her. All you get the idea of is that she's extremely straight-laced and kind of nebbish for lack of a better term.

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: yeah, and then she just busts out powers and she's really not featured much before this either, which was kinda. 

Jessika: yeah, And back in the. Barbie is having to reacclimate herself to her own dream character as she has only the fleeting memories of the night she spent there. And everybody in the building starts to awaken and the birds disappear. They're all shaken after their nightmares. And one by one thusly visits, the apartments of the other residents starting with Hazel and Fox glove followed by Wanda.

Leslie already knew the Barbie was in trouble and Wanda used her spare key to get into Barbie's apartment at Besley's urging and Barbie was out hold still in the dream room. Leslie asked Wanda to carry Barbie to George's apartment since Wanda was quote unquote the strongest and then Hazel who I'm sorry, is just dumber than a rock points to Wanda's genitals and says, Hey, you have a thingy, which firstly, take a step back, captain obvious.

And secondly, so the fuck what?

Mike: Yeah. And it goes back to that thing that we were talking about with Hazelwood. It's like, she is suddenly this very, almost childlike person, even though she is a grown ass adult and a queer relationship in New York city. Like, I dunno, it's, it's not great. It feels. Very clumsy.

Jessika: It sure did. And I think childlike is, is probably the best way to put it because it did feel that way. Like she was seeing something for the first time and it's like, girl,

Mike: it's like you're pregnant. This isn't the first time you seen one 

Jessika: seriously, 

Mike: anyway. 

Jessika: goodness. The party, Firenze, Georges gross poster size picture of Barbie that he has framed up on his wall 

Mike: Yup. 

Jessika: and is informed that Thessaly has killed George and he is in the bathtub. So Wanda's freaked out by all of this. Of course, I would also be very freaked out at this. not going to lie to you.

Mike: Also we need to, we need to Go back.

for a second and it's not that George is dead and in the bathtub it's oh no. George is in the bathtub and they go, oh, is he taking a shower? It's weird that he's taking a shower at 2:00 AM. And she's like, no, no, no, no. I killed him. And his body is in the bathtub and that's when the freaking out happens.

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: I thought that was great. I loved it.

Jessika: I did too. Cause definitely left the door open to George's house and everyone's like, George. Hello.

Mike: Yeah. No. 

Jessika: Oh,

of course one is freaked out and she says that she's going to leave and she physically cannot. As if by magic, Leslie also says that she is going to get George to talk and starts the disgusting process of doing so she has to remove his eyes, his face skin, and his tongue, this, she actually bid out, which was fucking as fuck.

Mike: Yeah, after it looks like she's kissing his skinless face. 

Jessika: Uh, yeah, was horrifying and nails these to the wall and then tells George that it's time to come back and horrifyingly. He does come back and WordStar coming from the face nail to the wall and it's gross. So thusly starts to interrogate him about his plans and he begins to tell the group the CU.

Wanda is disgusted and runs to the bathroom where she vomits and the rest of the group seemingly is surprisingly calm about the whole thing. I don't know that I would be personally, so Thessaly who is now out for revenge against the cuckoo for, you know, trying to fuck with her in her sleep states that she needs some menstrual blood and asks Fox glove.

And when she asks, why she has to with Besley reveals that she has not been straight in a long time, And that Hazel is pregnant, which they definitely do not have time to deal with at the moment. But hill was obviously shocked and upset by the news. And Wanda is told that she can't go onto the next part of their journey because she needs to watch Barbie.

But there seems to be an underlying reason after conversing with a being that seemed to be made of light stating that she needs to seek entry into the dream realm.

Mike: Oh

so it's actually, um, it's the threefold goddess who the fates basically who keep on showing up throughout. So it's, it's that, mother maiden crone, who normally, when we see them, it's, they're different phases, but they're all kind of part of the same amorphous black shape. So , depending on the artist, it's like, one being, but with like, you know, the three different identities at the same time, but it's also the. 

Jessika: Yeah. And I didn't get that. It was those three again, so thank you for,

Mike: That's something I caught, like on my second or third read through 

Jessika: Okay. Well, I feel better about a thumb.

Mike: it's. I mean, it's a fleeting moment. They only show up for like a page maybe. 

Jessika: Yeah, yeah.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: meanwhile, on the street, our friend, the I don't like dogs, lady is pointing out to a passer-by that the moon is acting strange, that it had disappeared from the sky. He states that it must be an eclipse, but she says that it just left. It was not like it gradually blacked out like normal eclipse.

So Wanda watches us the three women walk into the light and disappear out of the room and the moon reappears in the sky for our friend on the street, Wanda starts questioning her womanhood because she vomited during the interrogation that somehow has makes her less of a woman. But I would argue that I would do the same.

That whole situation was so gnarly.

Mike: Yeah. it's very pagan ritually. it feels like, old school kind of like druidic, I'm sure that someone's going to get mad at me for saying this, but , it's very pagan, a cult. I don't know the rituals, but it feels like a lot of those things that you read about and fantasy novels that are set in, like our theory and times. 

Jessika: Totally.

So the head then starts talking to. back in the dream realm, RB and company are making their way to their destination and have some near misses and find some other dead friends along the way the land has suffered since she has been gone, they talk about the cuckoo and how the bird lays its eggs and the nest of others.

And once hatch, the young cuckoos push out the other eggs or young of the bird who initially built the nest while also fesses up to Morpheus about having warned Barbie. But he agrees that she did the right thing, princess, Barbara, and party, get to their destination, the sea and send, lose the parrot to get help.

Mike: Yeah. And at this point there's only one other companion left. Who's like a, like an aardvark or an anteater. 

Oh, is it okay? That was some 

Jessika: It's a rat. It's like a, yeah, some rodent where it like 

Mike: and a trench 

Jessika: a order. Yeah. 

It looks like a reporter of a pie.

Mike: Yeah. And, as their journey has been going on, it's kind of like, , the group of friends in the horror movie who are slowly getting picked off one by one. and the one That always gets me is the monkey. And I can't remember his name. But he would scout ahead and then he didn't come back and Barbie at one point asks if they think that he's okay and one of them just goes no, and then they go and find his body and it's like, Hmm.

Hmm.

Jessika: Yeah. That was really.

And back at the apartment, this was a very web flashy, one where it's very back and forth. Uh, back at the apartment, Wanda is talking to George's face and she asks him why she was left behind. He says it's because she's a man stating that the moon Magic that was used can only be used by biological women, which yikes.

No, no, no, no, I don't. I don't like that one bed. And George also offhandedly states that they should be concerned about the weather.

So back in the dream realm, Luiz has betrayed Barbie and brings armed guards to their hiding place on the lift. And they also killed the last remaining member of the party. So Barbie is dragged away by the guards and then is paraded through the town into a small pink house.

Mike: Which is the house that she grew up. 

Jessika: It is, yeah. It turns out to be a replica of her childhood home. she is also confronted by someone who appears to be her as a child, which is strange. child Barbie starts explaining that she had basically possessed her dreams and was taking over. Barbie becomes more and more visibly weak from being , in the house and around the young doppelganger.

Ann Young Barbie leaves the house with her entourage of large dark plaid guards.

Mike: While dragging older Barbie with her. 

Jessika: Yeah. So back in New York things have started to get wild. A hurricane that had just left, turned around and heads back into town. The women walk a path of Moonlight to the dream realm where thusly fesses up that she's been around a pretty long time and starts in on her plan for revenge. I would not want to cross this lady. It did not take much for her to get pissed off enough to want to kill people.

Mike: I mean, I found it pretty relatable. 

Jessika: So they run across one of Barbie's failed companions who tells them that the cuckoo Barbie 

Mike: Well, they come across the body and then facily resurrects them in a similar manager that she did to George. 

Jessika: Correct.

Mike: Yeah. And that's how they're able to get him to talk. 

Jessika: So during the walk Fox glove and Hazel discuss their future and Fox glove decides to raise the child as theirs and they make up in a sense. in New York, the storm is raging. George is making terrible transphobic jokes from the wall and the woman outside has been caught in the storm. So one helps a woman get inside out of the storm, in the dream realm, young Barbie, as an acting and plan, and has gone out to the most ancient point of the land. The higher gram that's land her two companions start making their way over, but are met by young Barbie who points them over to the threat quote, unquote, stating that lose is the cuckoo and loses a parrot.

I might add. So the fact that she's saying the para did it is actually kind of a good assumption to make a Kuku. Fastly goes over confirms with the bird that she is in fact, the cuckoo and strangles her and snaps her neck. when Hazel asks why she did it, she says that the bird had to be taught a lesson.

The lesson was that you don't get a second chance, which yeah.

Mike: Yeah, Nestle is, uh, the epitome of don't fuck around. 

Jessika: yeah. found out.

then young Barbie explains to Barbie and the others that the time has come to do what she had been brought here for. Back in New York are I don't like dogs. Friend is named Maisie and she is rightfully creeped out by George's face on the wall siding, bad vibes, which agreed more transphobic questions on some stories from Maisie about another trans family member she had, .

It was just bad news bears. Barbie does a, she is told by young Barbie back in the dream realm and slams the porpoise teen into the large stone HIRA gram. And there's a great explosion at which point it's revealed the young Barbie is actually the cuckoo and that her goal, the whole time had been to get Barbie, to destroy the Portland teen and the high program.

And then the cuckoo wouldn't be held in the land any longer breaking the spell and the land would subsequently be destroyed. So the necklace also disappears right off of Barbie's sleeping chest back in.

Morphine's appears and Stacy, he created the land and puts Barbie back in control of her own mind as she had been Bewitched by the cuckoo and all of the characters of the land start filing past, ending with one dark haired and scarred woman in white, who clearly had history with dream, like every other fucking woman in here.

So vessel, he tries to claim the life of the cuckoo. But dream is like, Nope. And states that he's displeased, that she's caused some major shit.

Mike: Yeah, he was. If I remember, right. Dream was upset that she had trespassed into the dream realm without his permission. 

Jessika: Correct? Yeah.

Mike: And it's also implied that her getting the goddess to grant her and foxglove and Hazel passage to the dream realm resulted in the hurricane. 

Jessika: Oh no, that was absolutely implied. Yeah. The implication was that if you pull the moon out of the sky, 

you're going to fuck with the tides. Yeah. Yeah. so we turn again to New York where that storm is even fiercer than before. And then there is an explosion of weather from outside and the world starts to. In the dream realm, dream states that he owes Barbie a boon and also reveals that Rose Walker, from , our doll's house volume had partially caused this mess.

During that fateful night of converging dreams. Barbie asks that she and the other three women get back safe and sound, and they are sent back and we end volume five with a funeral Wanda's funeral. Barbie was pulled from the wreckage and was able to recover, but Wanda amazi did not make it.

The funeral was similarly depressing and not just because Wanda had passed away, but because they were using Wanda's dead name and it cut her hair and had put her in men's clothing. And she was buried by her family who clearly had no idea who she really was nor cared to listen to find out. And even the headstone had her dead name listed.

So Barbie took out a bright shade of lipstick and wrote Wanda on the headstone Barbie dreams that she sees Wanda with a smiling pale woman wearing black. And she finally seems happy.

Mike: do we ever find out where the funeral is being held? It's just, it's implied that it's vaguely south Midwest. 

Jessika: She had to travel. 

And it did kind of seem in the south. I don't know that we got an exact location. 

Mike: Yeah. It was, it. was somewhere, very God-fearing and intolerance of people that are the least bit different. 

Jessika: Yeah. Well, what were your overall impressions of this story and who are your favorite least very characters or events of the fifth?

Mike: Uh, you know, this volume is a really, it's an interesting change of pace because up until now, we've gotten stories where even if dream wasn't the main character, he played a really prominent role in the narrative, even if he was sitting in the background and this time around, he really doesn't show up a lot. And when he does, it's kind of just a bookend, the story. It's funny because whenever I talk about something that Neil Gaiman wrote and I'm like, oh, it's not my favorite thing. It's still better than 95% of things that I've read. this is not one of my favorite Sandman stories. Part of it is just because it's, it does provide that, that whiplash that you get where we're pivoting back and forth between the dream realm and New York.

And there is a clumsiness too, to a lot of the characters, like we've already talked about Hazel. I feel like new Haven was trying to provide a narrative where someone who is trans is human, because he has several scenes with Wanda where Wanda talks about it and is very adamant that she is a woman and the story, the narrative doesn't judge or mocker for that. But , as you said, George is gross and transphobic, which makes sense.

And, Maisie that the homeless lady is kinder. but you know, there, there is still that moment of are you a man or a woman? and then she relates the story about her grandson. it's not explained if he was just very femininely gay or if he was trans. Um, but she sounds like she was supportive of him, but then , he got killed during some sort of hotel hookup, which, I mean, that was a real risk with gay culture.

Like, you know, especially during that time. I think it's one of the Columbia, your stories of the overall Sandman series. I don't think it's bad, but viewed through a 20, 21 lens, I think he could stand some revision. I don't know. I, my, my opinion is pretty much my opinion, I think, has the least value in, in any conversation about gender identity, because I'm a CIS white guy. 

Back on track, uh, did it, did it, uh, you know, I, I did actually really enjoy how we got to see some of the characters from the doll's house return, especially Barbie. it's really frustrating that I kept on thinking that we had seen Wanda in the doll's house.

And it turns out that that was some misleading copy. That kind of made me think that like, oh, sorry. I liked how we got to see more of a strange fairies hill of a dream from that book and how it was spun out into a larger story that had a bunch of twists and turns. I don't know if I had a least favorite character, honestly, like, yeah, the Kuku is a hateful character, but I also thought it was kind of interesting that, that she was trying to kill Barbie so that she could exist.

And then I don't think the cuckoo shows up again. I think the cuckoo just like bounces after this, when she flies off. I for some reason, like, I remember when I thought the KUKA was going to come back and be an even bigger batter nastier villain, but I don't think that happens. I could be wrong.

It's been awhile, but I don't think it does. I thought was a really great character. Like we already talked about how, the way that they actually reveal that there's a lot more to where character and also how she is just straight out of Fox all the way through the story. and then, I guess, I guess my least favorite character is Hazel's character and it's not because of anything that was really wrong with her role in the story.

It was just, she was very clumsily writ. 

Jessika: Yeah,

Mike: like I said, I think she just comes across as dumb at the most convenient and unbelievable times. It's just, it's too coincidental where at one point she's asking about like, oh, well, don't, you have to kill a rabbit to like, what, what was it like she was asking about like to perform an abortion or, 

or 

Jessika: see if you're pregnant. Cause that 

Mike: yeah.

Like, come on, okay. 

Jessika: Yeah, actual most ridiculous thing. I know.

Mike: , I don't know.

Like, do you agree to disagree? Like, I feel like I might be reading too much into this just with my own thoughts, but 

Jessika: Oh no I was, I was pretty disappointed in how this whole thing was written. I'm not gonna lie to you. I was disappointed in the transphobia. Let's start there. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: It just felt like the entire volume, it may have been done with the intention of bringing to light some of the challenges that trans women face like deadnaming or of constantly being told that genitalia is what makes one, a woman or the idea that to do trans correctly, you need to get surgery or the blatant violence against trans people.

But I don't think enough was done to highlight someone doing the right thing and giving example of allowing someone to just live their life genuinely. And Barbie is a good example of a somewhat decent advocate, but I wish that the lesbians in the building had done more to be open or even just not completely stupid about the situation.

It just felt really TERF-y 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Which, you know, to, to explain for any of you who don't know a turf as it's trans exclusionary, radical feminist, which is just a way to say you don't want trans women in your fucking woman club for some fucking odd reason.

Mike: Yeah,

And I mean,

back in 1991, when this was written, that wasn't really a thing like, gender queerness, wasn't really a known thing. It was your transsexual 

like, did you ever see the movie soap dish with Sally field and Whoopi Goldberg and Elizabeth shoe and Kevin Klein? 

Jessika: No. 

Mike: It's a really funny movie up until the last 10 minutes, uh, where it's, it's about the cast of a soap opera and how the behind the scenes stuff is even more ridiculous than what's going on in the soap opera.

It's great. But then the last 10 minutes or so it's revealed that the villain who's been pulling everyone's puppet strings, , she's , publicly humiliated by being outed on live television as a trans woman. And that's the punchline. in, 1991, This was considered wildly funny. this is an example of how our views have changed in the past 30 years. for the better where we can look at this and say, this is, this is not great. 

Jessika: Yeah.

I mean, it's still happening though. And that's it, it's still a very real problem within the, you know, the LGBTQ plus community. 

Mike: a hundred percent. 

Jessika: Yeah. It's just in the end, I felt like there were no lessons learned by the people who had been the most transphobic.

Mike: Yeah,

I mean, cause George, we knew was going to be terrible. , and then Hazel and Fox glove, there was no. resolution on that because by the time that they get back, Wanda's dead. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yup. And which that also felt refrigerators. Like you're going to kill off the one trans person, like okay.

Mike: Yeah. And there's the, the happy ending of, we see Wanda perfect. And in this amazing dress with death, waving goodbye to say farewell to Barbie, which is it's. I mean it's 

Jessika: But she, but my problem with that is she looks a little bit different. Like she looks more feminine and 

she looks more in it's. That's not necessarily what, and I mean, I'm not trans, so I can't speak to this experience, but to me ha, having known people and talk to their experience, that's not necessarily what they want.

They don't want to be a totally different person. They just want to be them genuinely.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I certainly can't speak for people who are trans or gender fluid, or, or anything in that realm. Like that is well outside my wheelhouse. I can just say, I agree with you. It feels achy. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and yeah, since, no real lessons , were learned. I mean, maybe that's the real message that people don't fucking learn. And if so, thank you. That's goddamn. Depressing.

Mike: Yeah. The one nice moment was when Barbie wrote Wanda's name on her tombstone and the bright lipstick, that was nice because you know, it was loud and it was flamboyant and it was very much everything about Wanda's personality, but it was really dissatisfying as an ending. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Did you have a favorite art moment in this volume?

Mike: I'm not sure that I had a favorite art moment, but I was really affected every time one of Barbie's friends died or where she found their bodies. like it, it genuinely made me sad. You know, I've already talked about how, when they found per natto, the monkeys corpse and how it was really sad, but Martin 10 bones and his expression right before the cop shot him, because he just looked, it was that look of, oh, I found my friend , and I've got the message, but like, it, uh,

it reminded me of the time that I'd take my dog into the vet to put them down. 

Jessika: Mm. Hmm.

Mike: you know, and that's,

it's, it's that moment where you, uh, when you're holding the dog and it's like, oh, everything's okay. And then they give him the shot and he gives you this look just fucking rips you apart every time.

So not really, uh, not really a favorite moment, but definitely in effecting one. 

Jessika: Oh, you're trying to get me go on to,

Mike: Yeah. Um, I dunno. What about you? 

Jessika: well, I really enjoyed how they did the color and line work and the moon. 

Mike: Yeah, those were cool.

Jessika: Yeah, it was neat to see how they use the negative space and implied shapes using lions. And it also made me feel like I was a part of the scene. There was almost like I had to shield my own eyes from the full white pages.

Mike: Yeah. that was, that was neat.

Jessika: any final thoughts about this volume before we move on?

Mike: like I said, it's not really my favorite.

I keep thinking about Hazel and Fox glove. And it's interesting because like Fox glove was, , the girlfriend of the woman who put out her own eyes with the forks or , the, the skewers and the diner, 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I figured you were going to bring that up. I was, I was like, how can I condense this 

crazy story?

Mike: Yeah. And so that, I, that was kind of a neat throwback because I remember Fox glove is like a very, it's like a throwaway name or something like that. And then I think her name is Julie shows up in the jacket that she was wearing and her eyes , are not visible during the nightmares when everyone's being plagued by the Cuckoo's Binion's.

I will say that moment where Hazel and Fox glove are first in the dreaming and Fox lava sitting there and basically screaming at Hazel about getting pregnant and it feels like it's going to get real ugly. And she's like, when we get back, I'm gonna , call you all sorts of names and tell you how dumb you are and do you know how much it's going to cost for us to raise a baby. and she's like, we're going to have to buy one of those stupid expensive books to name the kid. And I was like, oh, Okay.

, and then they're holding hands by the end of that page. And it's, it's sweet. that story continues actually in a couple of mini series about death, that, that game in road.

And they're really good. they've got their own sense of tragedy and everything, but they're, they're solid, I don't know, it's not my favorite , but it does a lot of things that are really interesting. And I also think that it leads to some really cool stuff down the road. 

Jessika: Let's move on to volume six,

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: titled fables . And flections. This was originally published in single magazine form as the Sandman 29 through 31 38 through 40 50 Sandman special one and vertigo preview one between 1991 and 1993. So very much a true compilation

written by Neil Gaiman illustrated by Brian Talbot, Stan wool, Craig Russell, Sean McManus, Jon Watkiss, Jill Thompson, Duncan Eagleson and Kent Williams. And this was very much a, an anthology of a bunch of different stories that didn't necessarily tie together as a, an overarching plot like previous volume did.

Mike: Yeah. it's very much like dream country just with about double the cost. 

Jessika: Yeah, Yeah, exactly. The first story is fear of falling. A musical theater writer and director who is wanting to give up right before his show. While sleeping. He is visited by Morpheus who ends up inspiring him to take the leap of courage. It took to finish his project to completion. Next up was destined mirrors, three Septembers and a January the story of the emperor of the United States.

Here's the scene. San Francisco, 1859. Dream is drawn into a contest with his siblings, desire to spare and delirium, to see who could push a man to his death, each trying different tactics to try to lure him into one of those emotions. When Morpheus entered the scene, he basically just gave the man his exact dream.

He wanted to be king and Morpheus stated that he was the emperor of the USA. He starts making proclamations about his claim to the throne and starts gaining popularity and the charity of the town around him. And he actually becomes famous for being the emperor and is even sought after, by tourists, visiting San Francisco.

He has called crazy at times, but does not fall prey to madness desires, unable to tempt him as he already has everything he dreams of and despair was never in the picture. After his dreams came true.

He was truly content and dream had won the contest death swoops in looking stylish as ever and leads.

Mike: Yeah. And emperor Norton is actually someone who really existed in San Francisco. Like he's a part of our local history and 

Jessika: I 

didn't know that.

Mike: yeah, no he's emperor, Joshua Norton, the imaginary emperor. he's a really cool part of San Francisco lore and I highly recommend, , reading up on him if he ever get the chance.

he's one of my favorite stories about the city that.

I grew up in. 

Jessika: Oh, I'm definitely gonna look into that now. Cause I mean, I love just a Stone's throw away and I can't believe I've never heard that before.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: The next story is mirrors Thermador said in England in 1794 with Morpheus, just swooping into the home of Johanna Constantine. And I'm sure that name sounds familiar in the middle of the nights and I'm not going to lie. It was really creepy when he was just like Nabu, all your people are asleep, just you and I.

Sugar was like big. Nope.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And then he's like, Hey, I have this super dangerous mission. UN she's all, but what's in it for me. And apparently she just believes in vague promises and agrees to help with him and with his family matter that he needs a mortal to intercede in. And it. Then it is post the French revolution. The reign of terror is in full swing and Johannah gets caught sneaking through the town late at night with a decapitated head in a bag, you know, casual

Mike: who hasn't been out on a Saturday night with a human head and their satchel come on. 

Jessika: Mr. Al of late God. Once you got my bag, nothing you'd be interested in.

So

She ultimately gets picked up by the law sands head and as kept as a prisoner under a further threat, if she does not tell them where the head is, this whole thing about like her spreading superstitions or some bullshit.

Mike: , Yeah, because robes Pierre was all about reason and eliminating superstition and religion. If I remember my high school history, 

Jessika: you are correct. Is that whole logic piece, which he was just going off about. So she dreams a little dream and visits, Morpheus and reveals that the head is Morpheus, a son Orpheus, 

so Joe had a basically says, this is your fight, but I'm in the ring little hope over here, Hugh the extra creep factor where the law rightfully figures out that she probably hit the head with all the other heads and go tell her to fetch the one they're looking for. Johanna gets the head, props it up, covers her ears. And tells Orpheus to sing. It drives the map, puts them in a trance unclear, but she is able to get away and get Orpheus to a little island paradise where he has previously been. We also come to find out that Morpheus is quite the absentee parent. , it was so sad. There was this part where Orpheus asks Johannah basically does this mean he cares about me and she's like, dunno.

Mike: Yeah, it's a,

anyone that's grown up with with strained relationships to their parents, like can just feel that gut. 

Jessika: Yeah.

The fourth story is convergence. The hunt. So we find ourselves this time in a story within a story. Uh, grandfather tells his begrudging granddaughter, a tale about a man named Vaseline who becomes obsessed with finding a Duke's daughter based on a measure painting that was given to him by a Romani peddler, as he goes off in search of this woman, he has never met.

He first encounters, the Romani peddler that had given him the miniature she is dead on the forest path, that he just swoops her bag of items and moves off through the forest. He meets several characters along the way, including Baba Yaga and a tall slender librarian, each particularly interested in one of the stolen items.

He was peddling one night while hunting a dearest his target is taken out by a woman of the forest who factors into the story a little bit later upon reaching the Duke's mansion. He is led to a dungeon to rot, but is saved by the tall librarian who really, really, really wanted that book because it turns out the book is from the dream realm and Morpheus would be 

very, very, 

displeased. Should it not be returned?

Mike: We've met the librarian before in passing, he's Lucy in the librarian of the dream realm.

Like he's the first one that Morpheus basically reintroduces himself to once he gets back to the dream realm preludes and Nocturnes, but like he doesn't show up a lot. , it's one of those things where he's kind of like a central figure to the dreaming, but he doesn't show up a lot in the stories.

, I don't remember. I think he may have appeared in passing in season of the mists. I can't remember, but anyway, sorry. His name is Lucien. Like that's, That's all I was trying to, 

right? 

Jessika: So in exchange for the book, Morpheus takes Vasily to the woman's room, but when he gets there, vastly simply looks at her and gives her the necklace back saying this belongs to you later on in his life. He runs back into the woman who took down the deer while there are both in Wolf form. And at the end of the story, the granddaughter assumes that her grandfather has made up the story to assuage her from dating her current boyfriend.

But an ending comment, lets the reader know that the story may have some truth after all.

Mike: that was one of my favorite closing modes. I I'm not gonna lie. 

Jessika: It was sweet. So our next tale distant mirrors. focuses on Julius. Caesar's next of Ken Augustus, who after a dream decides that he must live one day in the life of a beggar. So he calls upon an actor who happens to be a , little person to assist him in getting into the role for the day and show him the ropes. They start by making artificial boils on their faces and arms.

They dress and rags and take to the streets in a dream, he was approached by Morpheus who knew about his troubled past being brutalized by the man. He looked up to the man, a whole empire looked up to, there was also this whole situation with there being two different futures.

Augustus had read the prophecies, edited some destroyed others so that that overall people wouldn't know what was truly predicted. And so that he could make his own course of choosing by being a baker one day a year, he was not being watched by Julius and the other gods and therefore could plan without them watching after Augustus's death, the actor who had accompanied him that day wrote the story of his day with the emperor.

However, the harsh details of Augustus's life remained a mystery that he himself took to.

Next up. We once again, go back in time with convergence. Soft places. If you don't have whiplash yet, just wait. You will get it by the end of this episode. But this time we go to see Marco polo who was lost in the desert and having the most odd dream. He runs into a person who says his cellmate is named Marco polo and they that run into our buddy Fiddler's green or Gilbert, who we saw in the doll's house who tries to impart a lesson on Marco polo.

Marco thinks that he is going to be stuck in the dreaming, but when he emerges, he is back with his father and was only a few hundred feet away from the party upon waking Marco forgets the dream. He was just a part of

the Seventh story is the song of Orpheus we again, meet Orpheus this time, his head is still firmly attached to his neck and he is going to be married that day. His friend, is also at the wedding along with Morpheus and all of Morpheus as sibling. The bride reminds, era status of his long dead wife. And during the wedding, he requests a private meeting with Eurydice fading, a need for assistance.

He states his intention to rape her and goes to grab her, but she needs him and runs off where she steps on and is bitten by a poisonous snake and dies right there. Orpheus realizes that she is no longer around and panics asking if something has happened to her grieving, the loss of his bride Orpheus seeks help from berserk his father than his aunt death, demanding that she bring her back death states that she cannot, that Euridice is any underworld now, and that he is unable to go and come back as he is a mortal after more prompting, she does state that she is able to just not collect him basically.

And he would survive coming back from the underworld, but she also tells him that this is not what he wants and that he should go home. Or if he is however, it does the exact opposite and begins his journey to the gate death had described.

So he makes his way to the underworld where he's buried across the river sticks and makes his way past Cerberus the three headed dog and through the endless amount of people in the underworld, he gets to Hades and Persephone who asked him for a song.

And he asks for his wife back and plays a haunting melody that brings the underworld to a halt. Hades states that he could have his wife back, but that she will follow him as a shadow up and out of the underworld. The one rule was that he could not look behind him before he reached the exit of the underworld, or she would go back down.

He made it almost all the way there, but started doubting thinking that he was the butt of Hades, this joke. But when he turned around, he saw Eurydice just before she was dragged back into the other world. Orpheus broke the surface alone and screamed understanding that he had just bought his only chance to have his bride back.

Time-lapse Orpheus as many years older and living in solitude, he is visited by his mother, Kelly OB, who had a falling out with Morpheus after he would not assist Orpheus with his quest to bring back your IDC is not interested in talking with her, but she wants him. The picante are on their way and that he should leave as soon as possible. So she disappears and soon after the forest breaks out and cries, a crowd of naked women covered in wine and blood are running right towards him and ask that he take part in their rituals of sex, wine, and eating raw flesh.

He states that he cannot participate as his heart belongs to someone else. And they basically say, yeah, we weren't asking. And they literally rip him apart. And eventually decapitate him, sending his head, flying into a river. He, of course can't die. So he's just stuck, literally rolling on a river.

Mike: Yeah. It's very much the stories that Orpheus is known for. Everybody knows him from the story of him and URI dicey, but, surprise. There is actually a major part of Greek mythology where he gets ripped apart by boxes, insane followers 

and yeah.

You're I find you don't want to take part in the ritual. we're going to turn you into one of the ritual supplies and just eat. Yeah, 

Jessika: Yeah, pretty much. So Orpheus the head washes a shore and Morpheus comes to see him. He wants to say, goodbye has arranged for Orpheus to be taken care of, but says the he'll never see Orpheus again. His life is his own next is convergence parliament of Rooks.. We visit Daniel and Hippolyta again, she puts Daniel down to nap and he wanders into the dream realm where he goes to the house of secrets and is with Matthew Eve and Abel Eve tells the story of Adam's three wives and Abel after Kane interrupts of course tells a very optimistic and happy version of their story, where everybody got along after all.

And after all was said and done, Hippolyta has no idea that Daniel has gone anywhere while he was napping.

Mike: we keep getting hints dropped about Daniel and it's gonna play out in a very big way later on. 

Jessika: I'm excited.

So our last story distant mirrors, Ramadan is about the king of Baghdad, who has everything. Anyone could want ruling over a prosperous city. However, something still feels wrong to him. So he goes down into the secret depths of the palace where numerous wonders were kept. You procures a ball, which holds multitudes of basically like bad vibe entities.

He summons Morpheus stating that he would break the ball, therefore releasing all of the bad vibes if Morpheus didn't appear. And when he actually follows through and drops the ball, Morpheus catches, it takes it and asks, why have you summoned me in, what the fuck do you want?

The king wanted to trade control of his city in order to ensure that it was going to last forever. Morpheus agreed, but in true Morpheus fashion, he put the city in a jar and left the man to be the king of a city in shambles.

So Mike overall impressions of a story, favorite characters or.

Mike: Yeah. like I said, this one is a lot like dream country and there's one more volume later on where we get the one-shot stories to provide us with breathers, , , from the overall narrative. They were printed, as they were in, in various orders, but then DC collected them into the different volumes in ways.

That makes more sense. but it's interesting because in this case we got a collection of stories without another prolonged round of like soul crushing horror and dark fantasy. I think the anthology volumes actually do a lot to move Sandman from the realm of horror and more into the realm of fantasy, because a lot of the times the individual stories aren't as dark or, as, as brutal.

like a lot of times they're a little bit more philosophical or meditative, but I liked them a lot, but I mean, I only own, two issues of Sandman like individual. and one of them is issue number eight, which is the first appearance of death. And the other one is issue 31, which is the one that features three Septembers in a January.

The story about . I love that story about Norden. I think that one's great. We already talked about how he was a real person and, he is this really interesting character out of history who is both the epitome , of kind of the magic of a dream and also what you can achieve even when you're faced with a ton of tragedy, because he was actually almost, I think he was basically completely wiped out due to a bad rice shipment and he did die penniless.

And at the same time, San Francisco fucking loved him. Like they kept standing, box tickets for him at the symphony on opening night He was arrested once by an officer and the judge actually did immediately dismiss him when he was brought before him. And basically said like, , as an emperor, he is never declared war.

He's never tried to invade anyone. He hasn't done terrible things. Other emperors should be like him. And I loved, how desire tried to tempt him with the ghost of a, dead snake oil salesman and the other bit where it turns out he had, like a Chinese information network, , where it turns out that the Chinese populace of San Francisco, which was hugely prevalent at the time, because of the gold rush and. Other things. , I loved the idea that he actually did have , this amazing fantastical life that was already fantastical, but then there were even more elements of fantasy woven into it. and then the other one is, , the parliament of ropes. It's , the story of Cain and Abel and Eve, you know, the purlin or Rooks hits me in a personal way because the bit we're able tells the story about him and Kane and, it's what this person who, who just idolized his brother wanted from the relationship, even though they do have their own strange in certain ways loving relationship, but also Cain murders able on a regular basis throughout the series.

And it made me think about, how I stopped talking to my brother a number of years ago, but I still think about him a lot. And I wish that things were different between us, like. I often wonder what things would have been like if we had wound up being slightly different people and I construct those fantasies in my head still sometimes, but yeah. honestly I like this a lot better than I like that. I like the previous volume, because it gives me a lot more to think about, um, I don't know. How do you feel about it? 

Jessika: Yeah, I, you know, it's funny as I actually really liked the story of Joshua, the emperor of the United States, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I really like how they kept the narrative bag, leaving the reader wavering between believing that he really had been successful in his reign as the legitimate emperor of the U S or if he was just some sweet old man who was really well-liked well-respected and generally taken care of by this town of other really eccentric.

Mike: Yeah. And it turns out the truth is a little bit of both. 

Jessika: Yeah, Yeah, I guess so. I mean, he did get out of, out of a core thing, huh?

Mike: Well, and when he died, basically, he was going to be put in a Popper's grave. And I believe like the merchants association basically paid for a really Swank funeral and of people 

came to the viewing like, you know, but thousands of people turned out for. 

Jessika: what I'm going to research this 

so sweet. 

Mike: Hmm, 

Jessika: Yeah. I thought it was really wholesome that he was just so content to have the title of emperor. He didn't have some weird power trip about colonizing or being otherwise oppressive. I would say that that was genuinely refreshing to see him just so content to be valued and validated. Oh shit.

That's all I want,

Mike: that's all, any of us want. Also, I liked that he hung out with mark Twain and the story, and I don't know if he and mark Twain were friends in real life, but mark Twain was a reporter in San Francisco. after he got run out of the state of Nevada, 

Jessika: maybe we'll have to specifically look at up. Well, did you have a favorite art moment in this volume?

Mike: I had to, I really liked the art of the hunt, which is the story of the grandfather. Cause it felt really like, it felt really scratchy and you're kind of reminded me of those old European crosshatched wood prints. And then that actually makes sense because I realized it was inked by this guy named Vince Locke.

And he's this guy who he actually illustrated a bunch of tabletop role-playing games for white Wolf games in the 1990s. And then he also created the comic that the movie, a history of violence was based off of. If you remember that.

Jessika: I do.

Mike: but like, I always really liked his style. Like I thought it was really cool and really unique.

He's done a lot of other cool stuff as well. He had a comic series called dead world that was a zombie apocalypse kind of comic. If I remember right , well, before the walking dead ever came along like, you know, 30 years. , and then there's the whole issue of Ramadan, which is the story set in Baghdad. so Ramadan was illustrated by P Craig Russell and Russell was a, the first openly gay comic creator. and he's still working today in his art style. It's just, it's one of the most fucking beautiful things you'll ever see. And it's really adaptable into a bunch of different settings.

Like he did a really cool series for DC called Robin 3000, which is kind of like a weird blend of those old Tom swift scifi stories, but set in this weird, extreme far future, we're Batman and Robin are solo thing and it's got that whole retro futurism vibe to it. It's great. 

Jessika: Nice.

Mike: but it's funny because when I was reading the story, I realized that a year later he had done illustrations in the same style for a comic that we've talked about in the past called acts from dark horse comics, where he provides this fantasy scenario that kids are basically being brainwashed with a very fantasize version of like that. Uh, oh, like it's, you know, it's like that extreme Muslim terrorist fantasy of like, oh, well they're promised, you know, I haven't full of versions or whatever.

And he did a stylized version of that, which it sounds gross. And tactless it's actually, it works really well in the narrative because it does. But yeah, I, when I showed you those, I, I sent screenshots over. Cause I was like, oh, this is funny. I wonder if, if his issue of Ramadan, which came out a year earlier was the reason that this got published, 

Jessika: Yeah. And I actually had to look at, I was looking at what you sent me trying to figure out if it was also in what we were reading, because it did have a very, very similar vibe to everything that's going on with us 

this year. 

Mike: Well, Russell style is very unique and it's really identifiable. And he has worked on some of the coolest stuff. Like he illustrated what is widely considered to be the first interracial kiss in mainstream comics as well from the seventies? He's, he's really cool. And if you're looking for some cool stuff, Check him out.

He has worked with Neil Gaiman on several things as well, if I remember. Right. 

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: so anyway, that is the long-winded way of saying that I've loved a lot of the art in this volume. like how about you, like, what I'm curious about is because you liked the emperor Norton story, I'm wondering if he liked the same things that I did. 

Jessika: Well, what's funny is I actually liked the difference in how Abel story was drawn. Just Abel's story in particular, it was done in this cute little anime style of drawing that was completely unique 

so far to the series. 

Mike: was, Chibi style. 

Jessika: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I just thought it was so refreshing. It was just such a surprise to see that kind of illustration, when you're seeing all of this other kind of heavy fantasy different stuff. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I thought that was really cute and it was such a small section, but I really admire the creativity of making the animation of the story matched the cheery note of how Abel was trying to spin the tale into something positive 

and maybe trying just a bit too hard.

Mike: yeah, it's, it's a kid friendly story for a child that he's talking to. 

Jessika: Um

Mike: Which like at that point in time, like has contrasted , very much with Eve story and, Kane story talking about , the parliament of Rooks or whatever. , which are 

Jessika: Hm, 

Mike: bit darker. The, 

Jessika: exactly. Well, when you say we wrap up this and mosey on to our final topic of the evening, 

Mike: yeah. 

Okay. Yeah,

I think this sounds fine. Okay. 

Jessika: well, let's move on to our brain Regals, which is the one thing comics or comics adjacent bed is just stuck within the recesses of the wrinkles of your brain. Mike, what is it?

Mike: So this week, or this past week, I was watching the latest episode of what F and my stepson suddenly got interested. 

And so we went back and we started to watch through all of the one-off episodes from the first one on. And that led to him getting very interested. I should preface this by saying he is scary smart, or an 11 year old.

And he loves watching videos about theoretical physics. And, mechanical engineering and all sorts of stuff like that. I don't know what he's going to do in life, but it's, I, I suspect he is going to do something that requires a lot more intellect than what I got. And so he got really interested in the multi-verse and then he had questions about the multi-verse and how that came about.

So I was telling him about Loki, and then , we've started to watch that which have led to conversations about, string theory and quantum physics and other things like that. And, the theory of time being cyclical and he suddenly has gotten interested in superheroes, which is not something that he's been interested in before.

And it's a lot of fun for me to sit and talk with him about it?

while also trying to sound smart to an 11 year old, which is a new experience. Um, but Yeah,

it, um, it's one of those things where I keep thinking about how, when I was growing up, people really were very dismissive of Comics and even until now, like I remember I would have dates with people where, when they heard that I read comic books, they would make very shitty comments about it.

But, yeah, it just, it's one of those things where these days Comics are not just for kids and They can lead you down a number of paths, you have a multi-verse of choices if, if you will, 

Mike Audio: So on a related note, the podcast, dear Watchers is a really wonderful show that focuses on different. What if Comics from across Marvel's history? And if the multi-verse gets your engine going, you should check that out. 

Jessika: Nice 

Mike: So

Jessika: Yeah,

Mike: this is something that I'm thinking about, um, and how, how silly comic books, uh, have helped me bond with my steps on a little bit more. 

Yeah. 

Jessika: sweet.

Mike: Yeah. It's all right. Um, 

what about you? what, what can't you let go of? 

Jessika: Well, we're really gonna, and this thing on a downer, because apparently we're running out of paper to make comic books.

I'm so depressed. 

Mike: Like, as in like, 

Jessika: Just the world. 

Mike: oh man. Well, 

Jessika: Yeah, I know. Yeah. , it's difficult to get paper right now. I think from what I've, read an article or two about it. all the paper companies are like sold out, like oversold through 20, 22 at this point.

Mike: so is this a supply issue? Is this like a logistics thing? Is this. 

Jessika: It's I think it's a little bit of a lot of things. Cause they're also having supply issues with not being able to get freight.

Mike: I mean, that's, that's partially due to COVID that's also the longstanding ripple effect from the Suez canal. like you and I have had trouble getting bags and boards for our comics. 

Jessika: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually that is another one of the things that they're having trouble getting is the boards. Obviously that was one of the things they'd mentioned. So yeah, it's just, it's rough right now. Everything is terrible. And I have a hard time reading comics on a screen. I really liked that.

It's an option. My eyes get really tired and quite frankly, I'm on a screen all day for my real big girl job. Like I don't, I don't need to be sitting, reading a screen for other pastimes. 

Mike: relatable. 

Jessika: Yeah. So that's that's me. Just that everything's awful.

Mike: Everything is terrible. And we'll see you in two weeks. 

Jessika: Yes, that being said. Thank you all for being here. We really appreciate you listening. We'll see you again in two weeks, Mike, we'll be hosting some mystery, something or other.

Mike: Yeah. Oh yeah. Actually the episode after this, I'm really excited about, I believe that is going to be our. I believe that's going to be our comic book couples counseling episode. 

Jessika: It is, I think you're right about that. I was trying to remember what order we were doing things in, but yeah, I think you're right 

about that. 

Mike: We're recording everything out of order, but yeah, it's no 

I'm 

Jessika: are. We are.

Mike: I'm really excited about that because, um, I'm just going to say, I'm gonna really excited about it. don't want to spoil it 

Jessika: Yeah, no, they're an amazing podcast. if you want to go listen to them, comic book couples counseling, it's there. They're great. I love them. 

Mike: Yeah, 

Jessika: So that's all I'm going to say.

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Well, in that case, we'll see in two weeks,

Mike: yeah. Take care of guys. 

Thanks for listening to Tencent takes accessibility is important to us. So text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessica Frazier and Mike Thompson written by Jessica Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from BMI.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by, look, mom draws on Instagram.

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to 10 cent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencent takes gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is 10 cent takes. Jessica is Jessica with a and Jessica has a K in it. and Mike is van Sao, V a N S a U. 

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen

Mike: Stay safe. 

Jessika: and support your local comic shop. 

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries! We had a ton of fun reading this week's selections: Jessika found the recent series Animal Castle and Mike discovered... a superhero created by the National Maritime Center. Strap in, everyone. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

March Movie Madness Part 1 (of 3)! March is National Women’s Month, so -ahead of the Snyder Cut- we’re talking about Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman 1984. What did we like? What would we change? What would we throw out altogether? 

Tune in next week for our thoughts on the Snyder Cut!

Have questions/comments/concerns? Shoot us an email: tencenttakes@gmail.com

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Transcript of Episode:

[00:00:00] Jessika: Do you, you can be, you know what, honestly, you can bitch about Snyder again,

Hello, hello and welcome to Ten Cent Takes the podcast where we rip into the comic books and characters you know and love, one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the Bitchin' Baker Mike Thompson.

Mike: Hello. 

Jessika: Well, if you're new here, the purpose of this podcast is to take a closer look at comic books and comic related media and how it's affected pop culture and our collective consciousness shaping how we view the world around us. Our topic for today is actually a deep dive into the recent [00:01:00] iterations of the Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman 84 films.

What do you think Mike? 

Mike: I'm excited? Uh, I really, I really enjoyed the first Wonder Woman movie when I saw it in theaters. I haven't seen it since then. So it was really just a fun trip down memory lane to sit and watch it with my partner. And then. Kind of tear it apart a little bit, but yeah, we, you know, the, the Wonder Woman, the Wonder Woman, movies, I think are a bright spot and the DC extended universe.

And so I'm genuinely jazzed to talk about it with someone else. Like this is kind of like, based on our, our plans for the next couple of episodes, I guess it's almost like March movie madness. 

Jessika: Yeah. I was thinking that I was, I was getting myself very mentally prepared for a lot of. Sitting and watching movies with my dog.

So I'm excited. So is he, Carl's stoked. 

Mike: What's his favorite movie [00:02:00] snack? 

Jessika: You know, he just watches me eat movies, snacks, because he doesn't eat people, food. Whoops. I'm not owner where I'm like stuff feeding my dog eat. This is the reason he does not bag. He's such a good boy.

Mike: Yeah. Meanwhile, my dogs are all over me as soon as I'm eating lunch,

Jessika:  Your dogs are like tiny spiders. I don't know how they climb up so high. 

Mike: I don't know either, man. It's weird. All right. So, uh, you are leading this episode, so let's get started.

Jessika:  The thing we like to do each week is talk about one cool thing that you have read or watched recently, like right.

You take it away. 

Mike: Yeah. So the memorable thing that I have been consuming media wise over the past week or so has been a TV show called Resident Alien, which is a new show on the scifi network. Sarah and I were watching it and it's it's it's okay. At [00:03:00] first it's about this alien who crashed lands on earth, kills a human, takes his form, and then has to assume the identity of a small town doctor.

It's kind of a, a sci-fi comedy drama, but it stars Alan Tudyk, who if you've watched over the past 20 years he shows up in and he is, I think one of the most underrated actors, he really is just so wonderful at playing weird roles. And so he plays this character who is an alien, trying to blend in badly with humans in a small town in Colorado.

And he is so funny and you watch it and you're. You can understand how people kind of write them off as just, "Oh, this is a guy who is somewhere on the spectrum," but it's based on a comic book from Dark Horse. Um, and so after watching a bunch of these episodes and falling in love with the show, I downloaded it on Hoopla and just started reading it.

And it's really solid. 

Wow. That's 

Jessika: awesome. I actually didn't even realize that that was based [00:04:00] off of a comic. 

Mike: I didn't until about three episodes in, and then it said based on the comic book. And so that was when I looked it up. 

Jessika: That's so cool. Actually, one of my really good friends has been talking about watching that show.

So I guess he's going to be irritated that once again, he wasn't the one to get me to watch the thing, but here we are. 

Mike: So how about you? What have you been consuming?

Jessika: Well, recently I've been trying to get through another. Watch through of the MCU films. Um, and I've been doing them in timeline, chronilogic-, chronological order, starting with Captain America.

So that chronology it's been fun. 

Mike: Yeah. So Captain America and then Captain Marvel and then Iron-Man? 

Jessika: Yes. Yes. 

Mike: Okay. Cool. 

Jessika: Proceeding in that order, hadn't realized how many of those films I had missed. When I was first going through them, there are so many of them. So I [00:05:00] started watching just in order, making sure I wasn't missing any of them.

Even if people said, Oh, you don't need to watch that one. Okay. No, let me just watch the thing and just make sure, and I was surprised there were a couple of them that I liked more than some of the conversations I had would have led me to believe I would have. So it's been fun. So let's roll into our conversation about our first film, which is Wonder Woman.

And I hadn't watched this one. I watched it in theaters as well. I realized, and then hadn't watched it like you until recently until just last night, actually. 

Mike: Yeah. So I watched it about two hours before we started to record this episode. 

Jessika: You're fucking fresh. You're there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super fresh. The bad day.

The wound is fresh. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Well, I'll give a quick synopsis before we do each of our films. So this one was released in [00:06:00] 2017. And the film follows the character development of Diana Prince, and we watch her training and growth through her early adolescence in the fabled land at Themiscyra, learning the art of battle from an entire Island of strong, fierce and driven women.

All of this is brought to a screeching halt when a world war one fighter pilot breaks through the magical borders of their land, prompting Diana to leave the safety of her home land in order to fight against an ancient, evil, and save mankind from. Themselves. So, Mike, what was your favorite part of the film and what would you like to throw immediately directly into the trash?

Mike: Oh, man. Okay. 

It's hard to decide what my favorite part is. There's a lot of this movie that I really like, I, I guess I'd have to say it's really the setting, you know, World War One was a really bold narrative choice and I really liked how Patty Jenkins used to frame the [00:07:00] overall story. It's it's a really overlooked period of history, I think, because we just don't usually want to take that hard look at how awful we really were.

It was a really excellent contrast to the parts of the movie that are set in them mascara. And by comparison, I kind of like to trash the entire third act. I don't know how you felt about it, but. I don't feel like that third act is nearly as strong as what comes before it. And Patty Jenkins has talked about how Warner brothers I made last minute changes and forced her to do this giant CGI boss battle after she planned for something that she describes as smaller.

Um, you know, and, and on top of that, I feel like that third act doesn't offer any real payoff for Diana's party outside of Steve Trevor. So it feels like this very kind of... eh, "fine" conclusion [00:08:00] to a movie that felt really strong otherwise. 

Jessika: Yeah. I would absolutely agree with that. Absolutely. And I th the ending was very, for me, very kind of, eh. 

Mike: Yeah! I, yeah, and I mean, I was talking to Sarah about this and I said, it felt like when I sit there and I think back about the movie I was sitting there and going, Oh yeah: so they, they have that ball. And then they're at an airport. I can't remember what happens in between and it turns out not much, but it's a very sudden shift and again, it just, it doesn't quite work. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's kind my, my overall feeling about the movie, like what, what about you? Like, what did you really like and not like.

Jessika: Well, I found the movie itself, and this is with both of the films. They're just beautiful. They're just, they're such a treat. It's like eating dessert. [00:09:00] And even the gritty parts are very artistically done. They're, they're framed in a way that's that makes all of the characters look very alive and real, but at the same time, almost a, almost a glorification of themselves is how it feels. 

So that was very, a very interesting way to, to kind of frame that in my opinion now, for what I would throw directly away is I really wish that they had not focused so much on Diana's infatuation with Steve. Like he legitimately just met this guy, take a breath. I know he's literally the only man you've ever met, but look around and then look in the mirror.

I on the other hand, it's just, yeah, I don't know. The women are so fierce too. So I will go back to that. The women are super fierce and I [00:10:00] love how they show such a range of emotions that movies don't usually allow for, for women. And they showed strength and rage and honor, and little girls are usually told that those things are done for them and not by them.

Mike: Sarah had a really good. Point of view along the lines of, I don't understand why Diana doesn't go out and just get laid a whole lot. Like what's so special about Steve Trevor. Like, yeah, he's good looking, but, but at the same time, he's the first dude you meet and then suddenly you're surrounded by a plethora of dudes, you know, maybe, maybe treat it like a buffet.

Jessika: And I, I feel like it would almost be more true to her upbringing if she did go out and not have a care about, you know, the way she expressed herself, I feel like that would be more authentic to, to how she learned about the pleasures of the flesh as she called them. When she called men obsolete. I just about, I lost my mind, my dog [00:11:00] barked because I was laughing so hard. 

Mike: I will give some kudos to Steve. He didn't sit there and react like a douche. He was just, he kind of had this wounded. No, no, we're not obsolete. We're not useless then that was kind of, yeah, but yeah. 

Jessika: What was your biggest lesson or takeaway? 

Mike: I'm not sure I had a lesson from it. Like I said before, you know, my, my big takeaway was that this was the first time I found myself enjoying any of the DC EU movies that had come out to that point. So I guess my biggest takeaway was that I finally had some hope for the overall film franchise, but there was this tweet that I remember seeing a couple of days later where it was a picture of Carrie Fisher as General Leia and then Robin Wright as Antiope. And it said "I've lived long enough to watch my princesses grow [00:12:00] up to become generals." And I thought that was a really lovely sentiment just to have seen, to have seen the embodiment of all these, these characters became what I wanted them to.

Jessika:  Absolutely. And actually that ties very well into what I kind of took away from this, which was.

You very well, may be stronger than society would have you believe

so. Yeah. Well, let's talk about our, our next fish on the butcher block here. Wonder Woman 84. 

Mike: Ah, man, this was, this was a movie that I remember you and I both had feelings about. And I feel like we're going to spend a little bit more time talking about those. 

Jessika: Probably. This other one was very like doo doo doo let's jump through the park.

You know, there are daisies and strong women I'm there. Um, this, this other one felt [00:13:00] very much more problematic and wow, that's such an, an intro I'm leading us. Aren't I

But here we go, ladies and gentlemen and theys. So having just been released in the last couple of months at the tail end of 2020 Wonder Woman 84 is set in current day with Diana Prince bossing it out, being the extremely knowledgeable antiquities expert. She is after the discovery of a wish granting object that falls into the wrong hands and inadvertently makes Diana normal, heavy quotations normal.

Our heroine must make the ultimate selfless decision in order to save the world again. So, Mike, what, what are your thoughts on your least on your favorite IC? I just started with the least your favorite and least desirable portions of this film. You [00:14:00] go first. I have opinions.

Mike: Man, I really gotta have a cigarette that I can take a drag from when, when I'm having these, these moments of kind of wistful regret. God, like I said, you know, I'm, I'm a lot more conflicted about, about this movie than I was with the first one. I think the best thing about this movie was Kristen Wiig. I, she was just an absolute standout and. That fight scene that they gave her in the White House, uh, where Diana and her are just beating each other's ass.

And then Kristen Wiig ends up mopping the floor with her after a little bit. I thought that was just amazing first of all, and second, I thought it was a really good example of what this movie did best, which was the smaller scenes were generally. So, so good. Which contrasts with what my big problem was, [00:15:00] which is that the quote, big moments kind of left me rolling my eyes.

Like, you know, it's, it's those moments that were meant to be epic or super emotional. And I can't remember one of them that really worked. Like there's that action sequence in Egypt slash Bialya. Yeah, it's the, it's that big action sequence with the motorcade where it's supposed to be this really cool thing where she's jumping from car to car and moving super fast and chasing things down.

And it just, it looks so cheap and there were so many totally obvious green screen moments that just really took me out of it. Um

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: You know, and, and on top of that, there's the, the extra heightened urgency to it, where they have the kids playing soccer and then they get into the street. Right? When this, when this convoy is coming down the road and I just, I couldn't, man, I rolled my eyes so hard.

It was so dumb. And then the same thing with Kristen Wiig's heel turn when she [00:16:00] beats up and almost murders, the guy who tried to rape her in the park. And I mean, Sarah and I were both on her side, you know, Sarah actually pointed out that a way more effective heel turn would have been if the homeless guy that she had brought the food to earlier in the movie and who shows up at the end of that scene, and she, she gets really aggro with. But if she had actually just been really dismissive of him, when he tried to say hi to her or something where she had just been like, I don't have time for you. And then there's finally that bit where Steve dies again. 

Jessika: Good riddance. Goodbye, Steve. 

Mike: Ahh, I, I really like Chris pine too.

Jessika: I mean, I do too. Chris pine hit us up beyond this podcast. I'm sure he listens. 

Mike: I'm sure, but like that whole sequence where they just, they turn it up to 11 where he sits there and right before she like renounces her wish you hear him go, I'll love you forever. And [00:17:00] there's a lack of subtlety throughout most of this movie that just kind of left me scratching my head and you know, and then there's also just the less, we talk about that final fight between Diana and Barbara, when she looks like a shitty thunder cat. Oh God, I don't know. I, I feel like there were just too many cooks in the kitchen man, because like, the story just feels like it's trying to go in too many directions in any one of them would have been fine, but the movie settles for this messy middle ground instead of filling, committing to any one direction and they just.

And they try to make up for that by, by going really intense and it doesn't work. So, yeah, that's my thoughts.

Jessika: In the sense of kind of trying to do too much, why do we have two villains? Could we not have, you know, had her kind of evolve at the very end of this film and have [00:18:00] her be in the next film or something, or, you know, have, have something happen or I guess that wouldn't have worked with the whole wish breakdown, but.

Is there some way where we didn't have to have a quarter of a story for each of these characters and then Diana making shitty decisions. The rest of it. 

Mike: I have thoughts about that, that we can talk about later on, but I mean, there's so many ways that they could have done the cheetah's origin, the, the recent, uh, the recent rebirth Wonder Woman comics that were done by Liam sharp and Greg Rucka. The whole focus is about how Wonder Woman and, and by extension Barbara Minerva's paths are so tangled and so warped by all these red cons and everything. And it's trying to resolve it in a way that that kind of honors all the previous stories, but also explains this new, this new development.

And it worked really well. I really liked it a lot, but I mean, The whole thing with making with the [00:19:00] way that they did it, it was okay. But I, I agree. It was, it was too many villains at once. It was the same thing that they did in Spider-Man three with Toby Maguire, where it was like, there are three villains because there's a third movie and you're just kind of whatever 

Jessika: Spider-Man learns to shoot webs out of his feet to compensate 

Mike: Speedermin.

Jessika: Yes. So get Spider-Ham involved. 

Mike: Oh man. I would watch that movie. 

Jessika: Let's get on that. 

Mike: Okay. So like I've already vented my spleen, but like what, how about you? Tell me how you're feeling.

Jessika:  Let's I'm going to start easy. I'm not going to jump into the negative right away, although it's bursting to come out. So my favorite part was definitely the very beginning.

With a whole stadium full of strong women. I don't think that I can say enough about the fact that we don't get that very often. We don't get to see even a whole scene full [00:20:00] of women very often, let alone that many women let alone women who are competing and supporting each other and fighting and being fierce and being strong.

Those aren't things that we get that often. And so I, I started crying the first time I saw this and I, I watched this movie two times when it first came out and I started crying when I first started watching the scene and I was like, well, that's stupid, but it's not, it's not stupid. It's, it's something that we don't get to relate to.

And I'm a person who, um, I'm not going to say like, I'm a strong person, but I'm just like, I'm built a little more muscly. You know, I'm a runner. I can lift heavy things. And so to see someone represented that matches my not necessarily physique, but that matches like my motivation to go do those things.

Maybe not to that effect like Diana, but in that same sense, it really hits me in a spot that a lot of these floofy princessy things [00:21:00] don't. I'm not a floofy princess. I would love to be a floofy princess. I dress like one sometimes, but ultimately in court they'd be like, you don't fit in that dress. So, and that's okay.

We don't all fit in the stupid dress. 

Mike: Yeah. So you and I both come from that hearty peasant stock we're meant for working in the fields. 

Jessika: Oh yeah. I can, I can pick up a whole mess of oxen. Just pick them up all at once. So let's, let's move into the, Oh my God. I hated this. I hated this so much. So you and I, we talked about this I'm we're going to do it again.

So the whole Steve possessing another dude's body it's super gross. 

Mike: And the problem is that that really sucked the oxygen out of the room. When we were talking about, about problems with this movie and, and it's something that really felt pointless. There was really no driving reason for that to happen.

[00:22:00] And, yeah. Oh please like go out on. Sorry. I cut you off. 

No, that's 

Jessika: okay. I mean, there could have been so many other ways that, that he came back, quote unquote, but there were consequences to him coming back or, you know, something like that, but it didn't have to be him taking over another person's like faculties, that's not okay.

And it's interesting to me that everybody else finds this super gross too, but I think it's, it's interesting because it's, it's because it's a guy there's a ton of outrage about this because it's a man, but this pretty consistently happens to female characters in films and TV and women many times have very little to no agency regarding what happens to them on screen.

But we clearly view this as normal. So it really speaks to how our society functions to see the absolute outrage at this male character being treated like any [00:23:00] given female character in our media. Also the bit at the end of the film where Diana kind of gives the unnamed hallmark looking bro, and knowing look like, yeah, with that, it's, it's just gross.

He didn't have any say in the matter when the implied sexual acts happened, he was not in control of his body. Nor able to consent. And quite honestly, it reminds me there's a super assist and trigger warning. Everyone. It reminds me of how many, many women's stories of not knowing what exactly happened to them went down. You know, there are so many women who have no idea. 

Mike: I mean, because there's that whole aspect where Steve, Trevor, you know, is basically just his, his spirit is just thrust into some random dudes body, but. There's also the bit where it's implied that he just has no memory of anything happening for days.

So I think, I think that was just [00:24:00] massively problematic on a number of levels, aside from what you've just mentioned, but just narratively where it's like, what is this dude going through? Where, where he's sitting there with his friends and they're like, Hey, remember that crazy week where nuclear war almost broke out and all he can sit there and say is like, not really.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I, I really hope that they were trying to make the point that I'm making or the point that I'm feeling about this. But I feel like it's so lost. I feel like we feel the outrage, but we don't, we don't feel the other side of what that outrageous portraying the fact that, that the other side of the world or the other half of the people live that reality.

Mike: Well, yeah. You know, back to what I was saying about too many cooks in the kitchen, like this was a story that was written by three different people. There was Patty Jenkins, there was Geoff Johns, and then there is Dave Callaham. This is all armchair quarterbacking. I don't know. I am willing to [00:25:00] bet that that whole Steve getting thrust into someone else's body and then no real follow through on that narrative.

I would be willing to bet that that was something that came from either Johns or Callaham. And it just, it was something that they didn't think about because it's not something that dudes think about a lot. 

Jessika: Yeah. You don't have to. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I can think of at least half a dozen ways that you could have made that work without bringing in that, that whole rapey connotation.

Jessika: I agree. Like what if he came back and he wasn't like corporal okay. How interesting would that be? Like, if you just came back like Patrick Swayze ghost style, and they're just like, are you thinking about what I said that they're just like sitting, they're like making pottery. 

Mike: Well, and I remember sitting there and watching it when the trailers came out and originally I was thinking, Oh, no, maybe it's just, he's a ghost that's come back. Like, it's probably not going to be a real thing or, or it's a hallucination. [00:26:00] And then they show him, you know, beating ass while they're doing that whole convoy chase. So I had to sit there and go, well, no, I guess he's corporeal. I don't know how they're going to pull this off. And I just, I felt really dissatisfied with, with what they did.

I didn't have a problem with him coming back, but I mean, honestly the whole fact that, you know, Wonder Woman reveals that that Diana is a god, why not just bring him back. But the thing is, is that manifesting a body out of nothing, it turns out it takes a lot of energy. And so he is directly draining her divine power.

Jessika: That's so much better, honestly, that makes so much more sense. Cause there was actually causing correlations. Yeah. I, this whole Diana feeling bad because at some random dude, just, I mean, with a slick wink at the end is not convincing that that was a detriment to her, you know, she's she didn't have like the whole idea was that.

[00:27:00] You were giving up your most precious whatever to get the most precious, whatever, you know, and it's like, that wasn't really what she was doing. She just was using some guy and she really didn't care. I mean, that's the long and the short of it. She did not care. 

Mike: And that was whew. That adds a whole other problematic element.

Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. 

Mike: There are certain characters who. Yeah, we can get the alternate universe versions of them, or they can be mine controlled and turn evil temporarily. But the core character being is that they are these uncorruptable aspirational beings that we all want to use as the proverbial role models.

And so there's the characters like, like Superman who is decent and kind Captain America, who always tries to do what's right. Wonder Woman who is supposed to be the embodiment of like kindness. And there's a wonderful speech about how in one of her comics where she's saying like, you know, I [00:28:00] don't, I don't kill if I can wound, I don't wound if I can, I think capture... I can't remember this exactly. And I don't capture if I can use a word instead. That's great. You know, one of her, one of her things is that she can speak the language of all living things. And it's like, there's this, there's this really nurturing quality to her because of all that. And then it's like, Oh, and you know, she, you know, It took away a dude's agency and is totally unapologetic about it.

Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I feel like it came across so much better that first movie, when she really wanted to go help the woman in the trench and, you know, and she was able to speak the language and understand the pain, not only of the language, but she really understood people's pain and what they were going through.

She wanted to stop and help everyone, but it didn't feel like she was driven in the same way in the second movie. Even when she was supposed to have like learned her lesson, it didn't feel that way. Well, what was your big takeaway from this film? Did you have [00:29:00] one? 

Mike: Ah, I guess, again, it's one of those things where I don't have a lesson that I'm taking away from it so much, but it was just that overcorrection is a definite thing in the DCEU.

And they, they did it in Batman vs. Superman, where they were trying to acknowledge and, and sort of hold accountable that, that first Man of Steel movie for like the massive body count from all the destruction of the Kryptonians fighting each other. I feel like they did it again here because it was such a, a different movie.

And I don't quite know what they're trying to correct, to be honest, but it just, it felt like they were trying to pivot and then they pivoted too hard. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. What about you? 

Jessika: I would say that I learned that society only gets upset at lack of bodily agency. If it involves controlling a man, that would be my take

It's a rough one. Rough, like sandpaper up [00:30:00] like a little kitty cat's tongue. 

Mike: Remember when we started this podcast and we thought it was going to be really fun and lighthearted and... Yeah. 

Jessika: And we've got 13 pages of notes and just angst. 

Mike: The salad days. 

Jessika: Oh, you know, the planning phase is always super fun. Well, comparison time we watched two movies.

They were... supposed to be in the same vein of movies, one was supposed to roughly follow the other from my understanding. So what was one thing that was similar or did not track it all when the two films were side-by-side or pick one thing that you, that you thought was interesting? 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So a big thing in both of the movies is that the gods like to mettle with humanity, like.

You know, the the first movie it's, it's very blatant about that. You know, Aries is responsible for World War [00:31:00] One, and Diana has to set out to kill him and the war to end all Wars in 1984, it feels like there was supposed to be a big twist or reveal when it's revealed that the dream stone was created by the God of Lies.

We get, we get the name of, of the God who I can't remember for the life of me, because it was so one-off and then nothing comes from that. And I feel like there could have been something really cool tying the God of lies and deceit. And I think greed, I think, is what they said to the two things that the eighties was really known for, which was one was the Cold War, but the two was just the incredibly gross commercialization. 

Jessika: I thought you were going to say that .Brings us to our first episode. Watch our look, go, go back and listen to our Sunday comics episode, which is episode one.

Mike:  Yeah. I feel like that was a really wasted opportunity because nothing came about from that. [00:32:00] And I don't know. I, I also feel like that could have been, that could have been tied to providing Barbara with, you know, a... second opportunity to get back at Diana. I dunno, I did enjoy the whole bit where the, the actual ending to that movie was its own way, a smaller, more personal ending. I liked that, but I feel like, I feel like we needed something as a little bit more of a dramatic reveal as opposed to, oh, the dream stone was created by the gods.

Cool. But we got to see her murder, the God of war with lightning. 

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: Yeah. What about you? Like, how do you feel that it compares side-by-side? 

Jessika: I thought I would stick with something that I thought was interesting. That was fun between the two that was similar. Okay. Steve and Diana go through a very similar arc of discovering their new world that they've been introduced to.

And I didn't really [00:33:00] remember that until I rewatched wonder woman for this iteration last night, I was like, Oh, how funny? Because. Diana comes to new world and she's like, Oh, look at all of these cool things. And she's like, Oh, that's beautiful . Oh, a baby. And she's like looking every single thing.

She wants to look at everything. It's all new it's. This is literally the first time she's seen any of these things before. So it's super wholesome. My favorite part of this was when she gets the ice cream. This is so wholesome. She gets the ice cream and she enjoys it so much and she goes back and she says, "you should be very proud."

And I just, it was like, you are so sweet. That is amazing. And just, I mean, it's like looking at the world, like through a child's eyes I can imagine. And then Steve, when he first comes in, I mean, obviously he was a, he was a pilot, but he hasn't seen [00:34:00] commercial airlines. He hasn't seen, you know, anything that holds more than probably two or three people.

And the first thing he sees is like a huge commercial Boeing fly over him. And it was so cool and him going and finding out about space, travel and going and seeing a rocket. And it just. It was so cool. And seeing that through his eyes in that way was like, wow. Yeah, that is really neat. It's cool. And it makes you appreciate those things like, yeah, I guess ice cream is really cool. 

Mike: I, I got to say Chris pine continues to be one of my favorite actors out there and not just because he's super adorable and apparently a very decent human being, but just. 

Jessika: I mean, Chris pine hit us up. 

Mike: Yeah. He also takes very weird, funny roles a lot of the times that you wouldn't expect.

So, uh, if [00:35:00] you have not seen the movie Stretch, I highly recommended because it is one of the most bonkers roles that you will ever see him. If I remember right he, he first appears on camera, parachuting naked? I think? It's been a little while. It's been a little while since I've seen this, but it's directed by, uh, Joe Carnahan.

The guy who did, uh, Smokin' Aces, The A-Team, The Grey, uh, he just did a new one called Boss Level that's on Hulu, which is a really fun, strange action movie, which is where he kind of is at his strongest. But Stretch is about this one day that's absolutely insane for this limo driver and it's, it's... I'm not going to call it a good movie, but it's highly enjoyable, at least from my end as I remember it.

But yeah. So Chris pine tangent over, sorry, Chris pine is really good at [00:36:00] just being very believable and the wide-eyed wonder that he showed in 84, I thought was so it was just lovely. 

Jessika: He's a really good facial actor. Yeah, he's very, very, but like, to your point, he's very believable and his facial acting is so good.

Do you remember in Star Trek? When he was in Star Trek? 

Mike: Oh, yes, of course. Love those movies. 

Jessika: Um, just his face when he concentrates in that movie where he gets all red and it's like, Oh, it's like, Oh, wow. Do you really live in that? You know, it's like he would go on their journey with him because his face is just taking us there.

Mike: He kind of reminds me of Chris Hemsworth, um, because he he's really good at being a solid leading man, but he is also really funny when he's allowed to be [00:37:00] like, do you remember in the third one -Star Trek Beyond- where at the very beginning where he's got all the aliens. And you can just see him getting more and more confused as they're asking him why he's delivering this artifact and then getting really fed up.

It was, I don't know why, but I still laugh whenever I see that scene. Oh man. 

I got to agree with you. I think, I think that whole montage of him rediscovering the world was, was really just delightful. Yeah, it was, it felt special. Yeah. 

Jessika: Well, so I have a little bonus category for Oh, Oh, okay. So I, you know, again, I watched wonder woman last night for the umpteenth time and I jotted down just a few, very Diana quotes as I was okay.

Mike: My body is ready for this number one. 

Jessika: Who will I be if I stay? [00:38:00] That one hit me, I would hit me right in the heart. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. Second one. I'm the man who can. 

Mike: Who was that a Steve line or was that something that 

Jessika: She said that, Diana said that .

Mike: Really? I totally don't even remember this that's great. 

Jessika: It's when she was going into, uh, they were talking about no man's land and he said, there isn't a man who can go there or like there's no man can go there.

And she said, I'm the man who can. 

Mike: Okay. Yeah, I totally glossed over that, which is really appalling. I mean, arguably the best scene in the movie. 

Jessika: I, I literally have chills. It's I'm rethinking about that, that scene. That was sexy. It was sexy as hell. And the third quote, what I do is not up to you. 

Mike: That was really good.

Jessika: Yes. [00:39:00] So that was, those were my three quotes. They stood out to me. So I wrote them down. Well, let's move on to our category, brain wrinkles. And we like to spend a little time each episode talking about something comic related that just won't budge from our consciousness. Mike, what's been stuck in your noggin, right?

Mike: So. We're we're doing these, these episodes, this one, and then the next couple, because the infamous Snyder Cut is launching this week. And, and do you want, do you want me to wait for you to Irish up your tea there? 

Jessika: Oh yeah. I'm almost done with my coffee. Oh, good. I have a second one sitting right here. 

Mike: But yeah, the, you know, the big thing that people have been focusing on ever since the Snyder Cutcat got announced and it was revealed has been the presence of Darkseid, who is, is basically the DC version of Thanos. [00:40:00] And I'm trying really hard to go into this movie with an open mind, regardless. I keep thinking about Darkseid as the villain that everyone wanted to see on the big screen, but it's really weird to realize that we're probably not going to see the coolest story with him in it, which is called the Great Darkness Saga.

And it's from the eighties and it's from the comic book Legion of Superheroes, which does not have the name brand appeal of the Justice League. The whole thing is that Darkseid wakes up after roughly a thousand years of sleep and winds up almost conquering the galaxy. And it's absolutely batshit. It's like he brings back like rever- I think they're called reverse clones or shadow clones of like Superman and if I remember right Wonder Woman, and it's a huge reveal when they actually reveal that halfway through the series or the story of five issues, that Darkseid is the villain who's doing all this. So it was, it was really [00:41:00] fun. And it's, it's that wonderful, weird, crazy space opera sci-fi that we're just not going to see in the current movie environment, because it's so risky to do something like that. 

Jessika: But see, that just sounds cool as hell I need. If we, if we can have, if we can have Guardians of the Galaxy, like why can't we have that? 

Mike: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is because again, I'm not trying to sound like a Marvel fan boy, but I think right now, the, I think Warner Brothers is very risk-averse for, for all of the financial stuff that's going on behind the scenes with, with AT&T acquiring them recently and the insane amount of debt that's surrounding that whole deal.

I think that they are trying to just do surefire hits. You know, if you, if you haven't read The Great Darkness Saga, you can actually go out and pick up a copy, pretty cheap of the collected edition. It's a [00:42:00] lot of fun, but one of the coolest things about it is that the, the epilogue to the story reveals actually that Darkseid wins in a way that's very personal and mean.

And I kinda love that that at the time the team was allowed to do something like that. So, yeah, that's, that's, what's been on my brain lately. How about you?

Jessika:  I'll have to check that out though. You always give me such good suggestions. 

Mike: Oh, well, thank you. 

Jessika: So my brain wrinkle and hear me out. Okay. I really liked Iron Man 3. 

Mike: I rather enjoyed it. 

Jessika: Everyone gives it such crap. Okay. I literally like every time I talked about like, oh, I'm doing a watch through, they were like, Oh, you know how people always have an opinion about like, which movies you can like skip, you know what I mean? So like Iron Man 3 is always one of the ones that people say, Oh, you can [00:43:00] skip that one.

But honestly, I rather liked it. And quite frankly, this is, I mean, The main, so the main complaint I've heard about this is that Tony is too traumatized and feely, but like, what do you expect? The guy clearly has, he's been through a ton of shit. He clearly has PTSD and he clearly needs therapy and he's making wearable weapons as an outlet, which by the way, not recommended.

I also think this movie is so necessary so that Tony stark overall character arc, otherwise. His final sacrifice and his like, kind of tenderness towards the Spider-Man character. It doesn't make any sense within the story or the character if he just continued with his one note selfish, douchebag tendencies.

Mike: Yeah. I really enjoyed that movie for a number of reasons. I personally think it could have used a little bit more editing, but I mean, there was no personal lesson -I [00:44:00] felt- an Iron Man 2. Like Iron Man 2 was a, it's a fun, it's a fun movie, but it was like, cool. Like the end of the day, like. He gets to make out with a girl and, and his best friend has a suit of armor now.

And I don't know, was there any more of a lesson other than Mickey Rourke is fun to watch? No matter what kind of terrible Russian accent he's sporting. 

Jessika: Other than that, I mean, the movie itself, to me, wasn't very memorable.

Mike:  No, I mean, it was fun, but it was just kind of whatever, you know, it was cotton candy.

Yeah. Yeah. It was fine in a, in a, in nothing but a complimentary way. The third one, I, I agree. I think, I think like the self-sacrificing nature does actually pay off better because of that. And also I thought Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin and then the twist with him as the Mandarin was one of the funniest fucking things I'd seen in a long time.

Jessika: One of my friends was very irritated at that and [00:45:00] almost walked out of the theater because the Mandarin is one of his favorite characters. And so when he figured out that it was this whole spoof, he got, he took it very personally, apparently. So which I just personally, I mean, I, I think it's very funny. I can understand you wanting to see your favorite characters represented, but we have to understand that, like you're not the writer.

We're not the writer. Like we can sit here and bitch about it, but ultimately, like we don't have writing privileges. And so we just have to go on the ride that they take us on. And to a certain extent, that's just what we have to do as the audience. And I understand that we are going to have feelings and that's that, you know what that means.

That means that they've done well. That means that they've, they've been compelling and that they've made us, they've made a spot in our hearts. But it's not something we should be able to take personally, or that we need to, in my opinion, I mean, I don't do it. Do what you want. 

Mike: You know, the other thing is like they, they did all those [00:46:00] Marvel shorts as well.

Do you remember those, like where you would get them in the DVDs and there'd be like a little five minute film or whatever. So I can't remember which one it was, but it was revealed that the Mandarin was. Was then being broken out of jail so that he could be brought to face the real Mandarin. And then they've never done anything with that, but they're also doing, uh, the new Shang-Chi movie, which Shane, she is this Bruce Lee style figure.

The movie title is called Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Which goes back to the terrorist organization, the Ten Rings. And then the whole thing with the Mandarin is that in the comic books, he has 10 rings of power, which originally they're supposed to be magic rings, and then they've been retconned.

So they're an artificial intelligent rings that manipulate reality, or they're, they're kind of like lesser infinity stones if I remember. Right. 

Jessika: But it's not the same kind of thing that, that Dr. Strange is [00:47:00] working with right? It's not that whole like mystic circle sitch. 

Mike: Uh, I don't think so, but who knows with where they're going to take the Marvel with, you know, the MCU is spinning stuff on its head in certain ways.

And yeah, and I, you know, we're just along for the ride, it's going to be really interesting to see what they do, but in the original iron man movie, the terrorist organization that winds up forcing Tony Stark to theoretically build weapons for them and what he uses to build the armor. Instead, they are called the Ten Rings.

And the Mandarin is, is actually a long running iron man villain -kind of problematic because he's relatively racist in a lot of ways or a racist caricature- but it'll be really interesting to see what they do with that. And I'm kind of hoping that we get some cameo of Ben Kingsley just like chained up, like, you know, princess Leia style with Jaba the Hutt or something like that when the Mandarin theoretically appears in Shang-Chi. So who knows. 

[00:48:00] Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Well, thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes.

This episode was hosted by Jessica Frazier and Mike Thompson written by Jessica Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson-Johnson of Bay Area Sound. Our credits music is "Pursuit of Life" by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat.

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us how we got something wrong. Please head over to tencenttakes dot com or shoot an email to tencenttakes at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is tencenttakes -all one word. Jessika is Jessica with a K and the Jessica has a K in it as well. And then I am vansau: V-A-N-S-A-U

[00:49:00] Jessika: Stay safe out there 

Mike: And support your local comic shop.

We're back for another Dollar Bin Discovery! Today, we're looking at Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #53 (and how strangely problematic it is), as well as the first issue of The Darkness/Superman crossover miniseries. 

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Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Roll for initiative, players! We're onto part two of our look into the early history of Dungeons and Dragons in comic books. This episode, we're checking out The Dragonlance Saga, the first official DND comic books, which were eventually published by DC Comics.----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Sources cited: 

• SF Crows Nest interview with Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman: https://web.archive.org/web/20080211083438/http://www.sfcrowsnest.com/sfnews/newsd0102.htm
• Shannon Applecline, "DESIGNERS & DRAGONS: THE COLUMN #5: DUNGEONS, DRAGONS, AND COMICS, PART ONE: 1979-1991," RPG.net: https://www.rpg.net/columns/designers-and-dragons/designers-and-dragons5.phtml 
•  

What do Archie, Biblical Apocalypse fiction, and Erik Estrada all have in common? It turns out each of these appeared in stories published by Spire Christian Comics. 

Join us as we journey through history to learn about and cringe at one of the craziest publishers to come out of the 1970s.

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Episode 6 Transcription

[00:00:00] Jessika: Yeah. How are you going to display your deceased cult leader's body if you don't have a Tik Tok?

Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we predict the coming of the end of days. One issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazer and I am joined by my cohost, the savior of sweets, Mike Thompson.

Mike: Eeeeeey.

Jessika: The purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative.

We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're taking a turn for the religious as we look at  Spire Christian Comics. We'll look at the [00:01:00] history behind the publication, the comics and the books they were based upon and discuss how Archie played a role in trying to educate the youths about Jesus.

Mike: What.

Jessika: Yeah, that's happening. Okay. I know we say this every week, but this was once again a rabbit hole filled episode. So buckle up, friends.

Mike: It's almost like we're developing a theme.

Jessika: Oh no. Yes. I like it though.

Mike: They're worse themes to have.

Jessika: There are. There are. Before we get to our main topic and the one cool thing we've read and talked about lately, let's call upon the fact that it is May 4th and May the Fourth be with you, Mike.

Mike: And May the Fourth be with you.

Jessika: Well, I thank you. For the record: Let it be known that I am wearing an R2D2 printed dress and I have Leia buns. So I am dressed appropriately and I saw that your household was also celebrating.

[00:02:00] Mike: Yeah. We festooned everything, but we didn't have any Star Wars outfits to wear, unfortunately. So we just threw up  Star Wars comics around the household in front of our Vader poster and other things that we have. But I have a couple of the really old Dark Horse comics that I absolutely love and adore.

Jessika: That's so fun. I love it. Well, we like to do something each week called One Cool Thing You've Read or Watched Lately. Mike, why don't you start us off?

Mike:  Sure. So this weekend I wound up reading through DC’s Doomsday Clock collection on Hoopla.  It's basically the official comic book sequel to Watchmen.  It finally delivers the payoff that DC set up back in 2017 when they revealed Dr. Manhattan was involved in the creation of both the New 52 and Rebirth universes.

Have you read Watchman? 

Jessika: I haven’t read it, no.

Mike: Okay.  It's one of those iconic series that everybody loves to talk about. [00:03:00] And to be honest, it's one that I never really enjoyed because I felt that I had a pretty nihilistic tone. But I've read it. I appreciate what it did for comics in the era. It was interesting. I read this and I actually was pretty sour at the start, mainly because I wasn't sure that I liked the story because again, it felt pretty nihilistic and ugly. That said, I actually really enjoyed the way that everything paid off at the end. Primarily the idea that there's now a quote unquote metaverse in the DC continuity, which feels like honestly the best response to all the different universe resets that they've been doing since the 80s   it wound up being  hopeful with a surprisingly sweet ending. I mean, it's not as good as the HBO series that came out around the same time, but it's pretty damn good. How about you? 

Jessika:  I recently purchased the comic book Fangs by Sarah Anderson. 

Mike: I haven’t heard of this.

Jessika:  [00:04:00] it's super adorable. It's about the unfolding relationship of a vampire and a werewolf and how they relate. And co-exist in random life situations. Yeah. Like the werewolf eating garlic and going to kiss the vampire. And she has a reaction to it. 

Mike: That’s really cute, actually.

Jessika:  Yeah. Or their inability to take a selfie together because she doesn't show up on camera. So all of his friends are asking , we haven't ever seen your girlfriend before. Like, why can't you just post a picture?

Mike: Oh, that's great.

Jessika: So I highly recommend this. If you're looking for a lighthearted fun and wholesome comic, it's just been super nice and mellow, and it's been a good ease to my busy brain.

Mike: Nice. Yeah, I'll have to check that out.

Jessika: Onto our main topic,  Spire Christian Comics. So I mentioned on a prior episode that I ran across some use comics, at an estate sale for a dollar each. [00:05:00] So how could I not buy all of them? I legit didn't even look at them until after I'd left the sale. But when I did all, I was in for a real treat. The Archie one that was in the stack really didn't catch me off guard. That one seemed pretty basic Archie from the looks of the cover, but the other one was amazing.  Do you remember, I messaged you a picture of the covers and you were the one who discovered  the Spire Christian Comics brand for us.

Mike: Yes I do.

Jessika:  Yeah, that was fun. I just could not believe I found these. And when I sat down to do my research, I wasn't sure how much information there really was surrounding these. But like I said earlier, buckle up friends. This was a rabbit hole journey that I will gladly take you on. One that includes Jesus,  Archie, Erik Estrada, and more. [00:06:00] 

Mike: Wait, the guy from CHIPS?

Jessika: Yes, the very same.

Mike: Is this more or less embarrassing than that weird  land sale thing that he was doing about 10 or 15 years ago?

Jessika: I'll let you decide we will talk about it.

Mike: I'm strapping in, my body is ready.

Jessika: Well, before we dig too deep, and since we'll be talking about religion a lot, this episode, Mike, what is your religious background and where do you currently stand?

 Mike: Um, so I like to joke that my family views me as the failed experiment because I didn't really turn out like they were hoping. And a large part of that is basically because I swiped left on organized religion as soon as I got a choice. Patton Oswalt talks about the concept of "it's all chaos be kind" in his special Annihilation, and that's kind of where I stand these [00:07:00] days. But I grew up surrounded by a religion. I was raised Episcopalian. We went to church almost every Sunday. And a large portion of my bedtime stories were from the Bible story book. My mom is from Texas also. So I've got several Baptist ministers on that side of the family, including a televangelist. Yeah. And to his credit, he has never been implicated in a scandal.  There's never really been anything bad about him. I don't want to name him because, you know, I don't want to make things awkward, but  and his family have always been very kind to my family. I know they helped my mom out a lot when she was in college. And I see him on TV or I used to, when I had TV,  I would see him appear every now and then on the early morning, sermon services every now and then. And I certainly didn't agree with everything he said, but it was just  always weird and surreal to turn on the TV, at say 6:00 AM, while I was getting ready for work or whatever and there he was. [00:08:00] I mean, growing up me and my siblings would actually go to Texas for  portions of our summers. And we would go to church with our extended family. So it was really different than what we were used to. I actually, I wasn't allowed to get my driver's license until I met certain criteria for my parents. One of those things was that I had to get confirmed and I never really had much of a personal connection with religion. And my parents made the mistake of telling me that I didn't have to go to church anymore after I got confirmed. So I wound up taking them up on that, and that was kinda much to their chagrin. And then additionally, my first degree was in history and my oral exit exam was a presentation talking about the Catholic church and how it would cement its power around the world by breaking up old nations and then forming new ones that were beholden to it. So I'd like to think I'm relatively well-informed about the various aspects and sects of Christianity, but I don't really have any spiritual [00:09:00] beliefs of my own. I just, I try to be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Not because I want to be rewarded in a theoretical afterlife.

Jessika: Yeah, I agree with that. It makes me nervous when people tell me  or make it appear that religions the thing holding them back from making bad decisions. I'm like, that's really creepy. So I guess religion is for you, like. But I was raised for the first part of my life as a Lutheran, and that included  going to church. We did preschool at the Lutheran church, but we didn't continue going to church after middle school-ish. There was just some congregation changes, I think with the pastor that my parents are just like, "Oh, we don't really like this new guy." I'm sure life just got busy. Cause you know, I was however, from 11 until I was probably about 20 actually, was involved in a Masonic girls organization, which had backgrounds in religion. But that felt very secular. We definitely had some [00:10:00] girls who were Jewish. We had girls of all different religions, girls were Catholic and we actually made it a point of the person who was the Honored Queen or the kind of president they were voted in.

Mike: Was that the actual term, was it honored queen?

Jessika: It was honored queen, by the way, past Honored Queen, here we are. It's a whole thing. You have to memorize so much stuff.

Mike: So can I just next time I see you in person, just be like, Hey Queen. 

Jessika: Oh yeah. I'm actually a queen. So it's fine. And that term doesn't leave me cause I may past Honored Queen, so still a queen. Yeah. But as honored queen, they made it a point for, in at least in our Bethel. I don't know if everybody did this but in our particular chapter we would go with the honored queen to her church. I didn't have a church at the time, so I don't think I even did that. But we went to a Catholic church.

We went to some Episcopalian. I mean, we, we did a lot of different [00:11:00] church visiting and so I did get a lot of hear a lot of different aspects and like ways manners that this information or information in general was being portrayed. And at this point in my life, I consider myself agnostic because the, "are we alone out there?”question seems a little above my pay grade to answer, in my opinion.  I'm not willing to commit that there's  nothing happening, but I'm also  not willing to commit to, yes, this is happening. So I'll leave it to other people to figure that whole thing out for me.

Mike: That seems like a pretty fair stance to take.

Jessika: Yeah. Just stay out of it. Someone wants to bring me along. They can, I guess.  So I want to list the resources that I use whole researching this topic and want to make sure I give these websites  the proper credit. So Baker [00:12:00] publishing group.com. You don't read comics dot com, Christian comics, international.org, comics alliance.com, biblio.com, wikipedia for one article, and Hal Lindsey's there's a new world coming through archive.org, which has a wonderful text to speech accessibility feature, which saved me a great deal of time.

Mike: I didn't know that they did text to speech. That's rad.

Jessika: It was amazing. Yeah. And I figured that out and you can speed it up. So I listened to it at two times the speed. 

Mike: Nice. That’s really cool.

Jessika: So yeah, that being said it did mean that I was listening to Hal Lindsey, uh, his book in robot speech. Cause it wasn't like a normal voice. It was text to speech like robot, lady speaking. So that was a trip to hear about the rapture through that.

Mike: I mean, if you're going to listen to narration about the Rapture, I guess a robot on meth does seem like the best way to do it.

Jessika: Oh, I would say so. [00:13:00] I wouldn't have it any other way. So Spire Christian comics were published through what is now the Baker publishing group, but was originally founded in 1870 as the Fleming H Revell company by a man by the same name, along with his brother-in-law, American evangelist Dwight L Moody. Their ultimate goal was to make Christian literature both more plentiful and more widely available, but they didn't start with comics and the company didn't entertain that idea until many years and many significant organizational changes had gone by, there seemed to be so much drama surrounding the ownership and running of this company, which I'm not going to get into here, that there was no mention in their company's history that these comics were even ever published. 

Mike: Really?

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: That’s wild.

Jessika: Yeah. Kind of funny, huh?

Mike: Yeah, that's crazy.

Jessika: In 1972. Al Hartley, freelance illustrator for comics like Archie and [00:14:00] Marvel was hired to make adaptations of some of the popular Christian novels that had been published by the Fleming H Revell company. This felt like a very appropriate and timely move for Hartley who had recently become a Born-Again Christian in 1967 and had chosen to quit working with Marvel because the owner at the time, Martin Goodman, asked Hartley to illustrate some risque scenes for some of his men's magazines, Hartley preferred quitting, rather than sacrificing his moral values in his art.  

Mike: Was Hartley the artist who actually illustrated the books we read for today?

Jessika: Yes, He was. Hartley was the one who illustrated the ones that we read for this episode. Although I'll talk about a little bit later, there is a little bit of mystery surrounding the artistry with There's A New World Coming, even though his name is on the cover.  I want to give you an example of one of the [00:15:00] adaptations that Hartley penned, other than the one you and I read. And we'll talk about that one in a little bit,  I'm gonna send you the, a couple of things to look at.  And the first one is the cover of the novel, the Cross and the Switchblade. Can you please describe this for me?

Mike: This really looks like  a low budget thriller from the 19... probably the 1960s is what I  associate this with. There's three colors. Well, four. There's four colors. There's yellow, green, black, and white. So. The background is entirely green. There is a really, it's like a really rough illustration style of a very stylized dude running with a knife. And the knife stands out because this dude is entirely done in scratchy, all black kind of almost pencil. And then the knife is the one piece of white. He is running from another shadowy figure. There is, it looks like a ruined city in the [00:16:00] background then much more clearly illustrated drawn in white is a church, cause you can see the steeple with,  the large cross and it says the Cross And The Switchblade. "The thrilling, true story of a country preacher's fight against teenage crime and big city slums!" Which, OK. Written by the Reverend David Wilkerson with John and Elizabeth Sherrell and John and Elizabeth Sherrell's billing on this title is a little bit smaller than the Reverend David and, it's $1.95 from Spire Books.

Jessika: Oh yeah. Spoiler alert It is self starring. Yeah that is why his name is so large. His name is all up in that thing. He didn't even change it It's just in there.   The next is the cover of the movie adaptation.  Can you please describe the cover and read the first couple actors names at the bottom there for me.

 Mike: Jesus Christ. Okay. So the title the [00:17:00] cross and the switchblade  is spray painted across some decaying brick. It's standing out from all the other graffiti that's on there and it says “now an explosive motion picture.” It's got what I'm assuming is the reverend, kind of like a  glamour shot. And then he's surrounded by smaller  shots of all the different people who are going to be taking an active role in this story. On the other side of his head it looks like he's being menaced by a "street tough," I don't quite know how to describe the kid other than that. He looks like a character from the Outsiders. That's just immediately where I'm going  cause he's got a leather jacket and it looks like M and M written on the back of his jacket I'm not entirely sure. Cause it's sort of cut off and then underneath them there's a bunch of young men of various ethnicities running and they're all holding  bats, I guess.  I'm not seeing any switchblades other than the one  that's being held by the tough who's menacing the priest. And then there is - Oh my God- so  there is the original book cover that I just [00:18:00] described  in the lower corner and it says next to it  "bares the raw needs at the core of drug addiction, racial hatred, and violence. NEVER -in all caps- has a film been more timely." Um starring Pat Boone as David Wilkerson with Eric Estrada. Oh, there he is. I'm not recognizing any of the other names.

Jessika: No. Those were the only ones I needed. He's the street tough 

Mike: I was going say  now that I realize that Erik Estrada is in this that is a very young Erik Estrada who is clearly in the salad days of his career. God.

Jessika: Lastly  can you please describe the cover of the comic adaptation for me?

Mike: I don't know if I want to. Wow. Okay This is way different! So it's again David Wilkerson's the cross and the switchblade is that the same style? [00:19:00]  It's meant to look like it's graffitied on and that there's the dripping graffiti. There's no delicate way to say what it actually looks like. It looks like jizz..

Jessika: It does. It's bad

Mike: It’s really unfortunate. Like I don't know how else to describe it.  And then you have a well-dressed for the seventies dude  being menaced by again Erik Estrada his character  and he's surrounded by a bunch of   people of color who are all staring on and not really concerned  with the impending violence that's about to happen, except for one white girl who looks terrified. And then Erik Estrada character’s going "I could kill you, preach." And then the preacher is going, "yes you could Nicky. You could cut me up in a thousand pieces,  and every piece will say I love you."

Jessika: Ugh, vomit.

Mike: Oh God everything about this is just it is extra.

Jessika:  It's a whole thing. [00:20:00]

Mike:  Every variation that we've seen has started off at 11 and then it's just kept on turning it up from there.

Jessika: Yeah and spoiler: Thematically, the racism is there for just… 

Mike: You don’t say.

Jessika: Yeah. Oh yeah It's just  rampant.

Mike: Based on just what little I'm seeing here it looks like a literal white savior

Jessika: Oh that's a hundred percent what it is. So really the comic was an adaptation of a movie that was an adaptation of a book. So the TLDR is that Nicky, played by Erik Estrada as we saw, is a troubled gang leader in New York city finds Jesus.

Mike: I gotta say that does not look like New York on the comic cover.

Jessika: No it doesn’t. They didn't do a great job with that. I don't know why, it's not hard to make a city look like New York. You can pretty much pen [00:21:00] any random looking city. And it probably is going to look like part of New York. But good job guys.

Mike: Well especially because  you said that Al Hartley was a Marvel artist. Like all of the Marvel stories back then were taking place in New York. It’s not like he didn’t know what it looked like.

Jessika: Maybe he forgot this time.

Mike: Alright, whatever.

Jessika: So Erik Estrada finds Jesus through the help of a persistent small town priest who comes to the big city to make a big difference in the lives of the troubled youth, who in his estimation just need to find Jesus's love. And that's how Erik Estrada became a comic book character, because the comic is based on him. That is based on his actual person I'm sure you've noticed.

Mike: I wouldn't want to admit that that comic character was based on me but all right.

Jessika: I mean there's probably a reason you haven't heard about it. 

 Mike: How successful was this movie? I've never heard of this before. 

Jessika: I haven't heard of it either [00:22:00] And you know I didn't look that up unfortunately. Yeah. So it's a mystery. Maybe I'll update us later. Maybe I'll do more research about the Cross and the Switchblade.

Along with book adaptations, the comics were also centered around the comic series that Hartley is  arguably best to known for: Archie. Hartley reached out to John Goldwater, who was the president of Archie at the time, who agreed for Archie to be included in the Spire Christian Comics publications. The comics themselves were meant as an introduction to non-believers to bridge the religious gap in a manner that was friendly to all ages. In total there were 57 comic titles published under Spire Christian comics, 19 of them were Archie. 

 Mike: Wow. 

Jessika: Yeah I know, right? 12 were biographical and they did actually pull, I was reading on another article,  they did pull some of the themes from the Spire [00:23:00] comics and put them into regular Archie but just de-Jesused them. So if you read one you might say this sounds really familiar. Well it's probably because you've read  what actually was an adaptation version which was now regular what we would consider.  There were 12 biographical or autobiographical comics including the likes of Johnny Cash and a handful of stories pulled directly from the Bible along with other miscellaneous adaptations and some Christian comics aimed at younger children. Hartley wrote and drew most of the comics himself but other notable figures involved Dick Ayers and Dan DeCarlo. The comics weren't all wholesome and morality-filled, however, and we talked about that a little bit earlier. There were some really problematic aspects of some of these Spire comics including that rampant racism I talked about. Even in the Archie comic that you and I read there are racist generalizations about Native Americans and their [00:24:00] clothing, speech patterns, and general attitudes and demeanors which I did not love. Opposite, in fact. There's also a comic, one of the ones considered a biography, was titled wait for it "Hansi: The Girl Who Loved the Swastika." Mike could you please describe this cover for us. Give us a treat, please.

Mike: This is one of those comics also that is truly infamous, especially in the age of the internet. It's one of those things that I've at least been aware of for a few years And every time you see, it it just throws you a loop. So basically it says and  in big bold letters “Hansi” and then in smaller red lettering “the girl who loved the swastika.” And it's this very Aryan looking [00:25:00] German girl in  1930s peasantware and she is standing in front of a motorcade. There's Hitler and some concerned looking you know Nazis and then the crowd around this motorcade is throwing up the right hands and there's swastikas everywhere. Like, everywhere. It's let's see one, two, three, four, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. There are 11 swastikas on this cover and she just she looks so happy and carefree. It's wild. It's one of those things where every time you see it, the shock never goes away.

Jessika: Yeah it's that's a whole vibe, not going to lie. It was based on a book titled I Changed The Gods in 1968 which, interesting title, cuz what did she really do? And it follows the life story of a German born evangelist Maria Anne Hirschman as she is indoctrinated into the [00:26:00] Hitler Youth but was later rescued by American troops.  She immigrates to the U S later in life and realizes how she had in her words been brainwashed. The comic is not subtle. Obviously. You talked about the cover just now. It's not subtle at all. 

Mike: No, not even a little.

Jessika: No no.  It also has a lot of really raw and adult themes like rape and violence and is incredibly overt with its Cold War propaganda at the end of the comic it was really something.   

Mike: That makes sense that they would go into themes like that because it's not approved by the Comics Code so they could just throw whatever they wanted in it.

Jessika: Precisely. Well Spire Christian comics were published until 1988 and were later reprinted as New Barber Christian Comics as that was one of the ever-changing names of that publishing company.

Mike: Hm. That's actually longer than I would have expected for that first run.

Jessika: Yeah. I thought [00:27:00] so, too. So good on them I mean that was a lot, it was a lot of publications that they did. I was surprised at how many.

Mike:  Do you know if they were being sold on newsstands or were they just exclusively in  Christian bookstores.

Jessika:  That's a really good question I'm not a hundred percent on that 

Mike: It could’ve been both. 

Jessika:  It could’ve been both, absolutely.

Mike: I know that those were really those were pretty big up until the nineties. I remember couple of the local malls had Christian bookstores.

Jessika: Oh absolutely. We have some still in town. 

Mike: Oh, really? In Petaluma?

Jessika: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I pass by a Christian science reading room on my walks with my dog. So they're around. 

Mike: Hmm 

Jessika: You and I read through one of those Archie's. 

Mike: Sure this was effectively an anthology of Archie shorts that take place in different times and places [00:28:00] Each of the stories stars Archie and it has him facing challenges and eventually overcoming them with pretty vague help from God. Examples include him being a medieval blacksmith, he tries to slay a dragon so he can win the hand of princess Veronica. He and Jughead are space explorers visiting quote unquote twin planets with very different morality systems. There's a story about him being a World War One fighter pilot who… I'm not entirely certain what they were fighting against. Was it anti-Christian propaganda?  Was that the true enemy?

Jessika: I think so, it really wasn't made abundantly clear.

Mike: Yeah and then there's also this there's a really weird one which involves him randomly walking into a spooky mansion that's owned by Beelzebub, who basically traps wayward teens by getting them to sell their souls in exchange for their heart's desire.

Jessika: Yeah. He was just a creepy old dude. He wouldn't let teenagers leave.  That was really what it was.

Mike: I didn't understand the payoff of that, but [00:29:00] okay.

Jessika: So  tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the comic as a whole.

Mike: Yeah. I've got a soft spot for Archie  I fucking loved Mark Waid's run a couple of years ago. It's honestly one of the best comics out there.  Riverdale is one of my favorite horny guilty pleasures.  And the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is also a blast. Side note: the Josie and the Pussycats movie one of my favorite soundtracks. Like, that soundtrack legit slaps. We should watch it together. We should do a viewing party sometime.

Jessika: Let's I'm a hundred percent into that. Yes.

Mike:  Yeah. So going back to this comic, the stories didn't really work for me?  Archie books are already incredibly family-friendly and the forced morality of evangelical Christianity just felt really… I don't know. It just it fucking rubbed me the wrong way. And on top of that the godly [00:30:00] decisions  involved prayer and strict adherence to religious tenants which I don't remember seeing anything about queer people in that Archie comic.   That kind of makes sense because Kevin Keller didn't appear until  2010. But I remember Beelzebub trying to tempt Archie with women of loose morals. And it's really bizarre to see that kind of hand ringing,  especially now,  about teenagers possibly having premarital sex because we're almost 50 years in the future from this and that is very much an accepted reality at this point. These days, at least in our household, it's like just make sure that everyone is consenting to what's going on and use protection.

Jessika: Exactly.

Mike: I’m assuming you and I are on similar wavelengths about this but I’m curious to hear what you thought.

Jessika: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the religious theme was just so incredibly heavy handed. It was forced together with the Archie narrative and Archie, like you said, [00:31:00] he's an overall wholesome dude in general in my opinion. But the morality lessons were really in your face. Like there's the one where he's in a saloon and he orders a milkshake. And this guy is  trying to force him to drink alcohol, and he's like "I don't want to drink alcohol." And it's like okay guy this is just so like nobody's actually going to go into the world and try to force you to drink alcohol unless you join a frat. Please don't do that though. 

Mike: That would’ve been way better have Archie go join a frat. That would’ve been way better.

Jessika: It would’ve have made more sense. Look at I'm already making more sense for Archie. Call me, Archie.

Mike: Also it actually makes a lot of sense for Archie to go into a saloon and order a milkshake.  I kind of love that but then the follow up of “no, you need to order alcohol?” That’s dumb. 

Jessika: It didn't make any sense. Overall I thought the comic was cute, had some messages, whatever. There was one section that really bugged me, though. And it was the twin planets where the two planets were exactly the [00:32:00] same except one was making good choices, the other one was making bad choices and the bad choices it was like not cleaning up after yourself. And I get there's a point some of bad choices. What was another one?

Mike: Everyone steals from everyone else? 

Jessika:  Yeah. Exactly exactly it's just so funny. And I get there's a point but some of the bad choices are listed as complete freedom and equality. 

Mike: Yeah, that stood out to me, too.

Jessika: That was bad. That was listed as bad. And I was like pump the brakes. Like, we live in a society.

Come on. 

Mike: This was in an era where the civil rights wasn't even really history. The Civil Rights movement was still going on. I could definitely see that as being a not terribly subtle dig at equality for minorities.

Jessika: Yeah, yeah. I can agree [00:33:00] with that. That's how I took it as well. And, okay, did they do that entire Pelican sequence just so they could make that stupid bird joke at the end? Because that's how it felt I didn't like it. It was stupid. 

Mike: I re-read that fucking thing three times And I was like…

Jessika: They literally did it just so that they could make a stupid bird joke. Oh Christianity isn't for the birds. You literally just had a whole lesson about how there was a bird teaching another bird Christianity and then you  negated it by saying Christianity isn't for the birds. And I don't know what you want out of this

Mike:  That felt like  a lot of those stories was these stupid kind of punny slogans at the end of  every one of these short stories. I really found myself getting grumpy as I continued to read them because I was just sitting there and going these are dumb. And no kid is going to think Christianity is cool because…

Jessika: No. 

Mike: Anyway, moving right along. 

Jessika: Let's move on to [00:34:00] the absolute jewel of my retro collection these days, which is Hal Lindsey's There's A New World Coming.  Before I get too far into this comic or the book it's based on I felt like you all needed a little bit of background on Hal Lindsey to really understand what we're up against here. 

Mike: I’m so excited because I want to know who the fuck this guy was. 

Jessika: This is very broad strokes cause I didn't want to be here all night and I'm sure you  didn't either but very interesting go check it out. So he was born Harold Lee "Hal" Lindsey in Dallas Texas in 1929. He dropped out of university to be in the Korean War, was briefly a tugboat captain -because why not- and after a failed marriage and contemplating suicide he found Gideon's Bible and became born again Christian. He entered Dallas Theological Seminary in 1958 and had his first book published in 1970. Since then, he's [00:35:00] written more books of which he sold millions of copies and has moved on with the times to include broadcasting his messages via radio and television. Messages that range from prophetic to conspiratorial. And I want to add this blip from biblio.com. Mike, do you mind reading this for me.

Mike: ”Virtually none of Lindsey's verifiable predictions have been confirmed by history.”

Jessika: Great. Thank you.

Mike: Is this guy still doing his thing? Is he still spreading the good word?

Jessika: He's 91. He's 91. He's fucking kicking  I think  he from what it sounds like he retired quote unquote whatever that means. I think he's still shouting into the ether. Yeah he's around. So speaking of predictions let's talk about those predictions of Hal Lindsey's. So there's A New World Coming. [00:36:00] First of all can you do us a solid and describe the cover of this thing, which is a journey all in itself. 

Mike: It is  this is actually I would say the most subtle of the comic covers we looked at tonight. The top half is bold yellow and it says Hal Lindsey There's A New World Coming. And there are three kids getting flown through space on this very weird kind of color spiral. And in the background you can see the spiral is emanating from earth. It's actually really cool looking.  It looks like it's some sort of weird  cosmic sci-fi space opera way I can describe it. 

Jessika: Yeah. Very 70s. 

Mike: It's very seventies especially the fashion for the older of the kids because  they've got the bell-bottoms they've got the seventies collar and  the big heels on the guy  and also plaid pants.  The [00:37:00] two older characters are holding hands, kind of? I don't know, it looks almost like the dude is grabbing the woman by the wrist and dragging her along.

Jessika: Yeah. He really took her on a journey, apparently.

Mike: Yeah and then the third kid who was also a narrator.  By the way, we never fucking learned these kids' name, do we?

Jessika: We don’t learn anything about them. 

Mike: I don’t think we ever get an official introduction to them, either.

Jessika: No it's just assumed that this woman is stupid  and sinful and needs to be taught better. That’s kind of what is presumed. 

Mike: But honestly this is kind of  the first panel of the comic book because when you open the comic it actually it starts with them on this weird cosmic voyage.

Jessika: Yeah. Now the cover is just the start of this banana grams comic and even nuttier book which, by the way I also listened to in it's 308 page entirety.

Mike: Okay I didn't realize that this was actually a comic adaptation of a much larger source text.

Jessika: Yeah. Oh [00:38:00] let's just say there's a reason this book was able to be condensed into a 32 page comic. The whole premise of both publications is dun dun duh The Rapture. Or as I much prefer to call it "the great snatch"

Mike: I’m so glad you called that out, because I was going to call that out if you didn’t. That is the highlight of this book.

Jessika: And they put it in such bold  different colored letters. It was in big red letters: The Great Snatch! And it was this woman flying into the air. 

Mike: I was gonna say: It’s this woman… oh my god.

Jessika: Oh I bet she is the great snatch.  I was laughing so hard when I read that. The long and the short is that Jesus Christ will be coming back to earth. The true believers will be abducted, without dying apparently,  [00:39:00] and eventually transported to what will be new heaven and new earth which is just one thing by the way. Both the comic and the book talk about the supposed events the mark the start to Christ’s second coming. Interesting fact I found about this comic in particular while the art is signed by Hartley on the cover, there is speculation that there were potentially multiple other artists involved in illustrating this comic, as some of the styles don't match up to Hartley’s through and through. 

Mike: Yeah ,I noticed that some of the styles weren't quite cohesive.

Jessika: You can tell they tried, but you can tell there's definitely some weirdness in there. And I was wondering what that was about when I was reading it myself.

Mike: Yeah And also some of the faces  of some of the guys I was like, oh  you were clearly an extra from an Archie comic that has been inserted here.

Jessika:  Exactly. And her face is so similar to so many other Hartley ones. The comic is a pretty faithfully distilled version of the book. [00:40:00] Although in my opinion is done in a much more organized and cohesive manner. The book provides much more scripture to back up his claims repetitively. 

Mike: Well, they did that in the comic, too.

Jessika: Oh they did but they didn't repeat them over and over and over and over again because that is what they did in the book. The same Bible passage would show it multiple times within very few pages. I'm just like didn't I just hear this Bible passage you're doing it again.  It was just it was a whole headache. There were also works of other authors referenced to build his case. But I found yet another interesting rabbit hole that I was unknowingly already knee deep in. One of the authors that Lindsey mentioned as being "a powerful writer of our time" and one he uses as an example is Carlos Castaneda. Which immediately piqued my interest as I was actually in the process of listening to a podcast about this very person. 

Mike: Do I  want to know?

Jessika: [00:41:00] Yes 

Mike: OK, was it bad? I got a feeling that it’s bad.

Jessika: You'll know right when I call out what podcast it is. And I want to give a huge thank you to Cult Podcast for this next information. 

Mike: Welp. I have my answer.

Jessika: Yup Yup I was right in the middle of the second of a two part series on Carlos Castaneda that they had done. And I heard that name within Lindsey's and I was like I guess I have to listen to the rest of that podcast before I really get involved. Now Castaneda pretty much went out to get cigarettes one day and left his family to go do a project in Mexico. No joke. He just left, not really a cigarettes part. That's kind of the Cult Podcast joke but  he left his family for a series of years so that he could go [00:42:00] and do an anthropological study in Mexico. 

Mike:  How big was his family I'm curious. 

Jessika: He had a wife and kids, at least a couple of kids. 

Mike:  What a shitheel.

Jessika: Oh absolutely. Cause like multiple years. Like he was just like bye. So he did the one thing you're not supposed to do when studying anthropology: Get involved in the local rituals and ceremonies anthropologists are supposed be studying the culture not getting involved.  Kind of a look don't touch kind of a thing.

Mike:  Yeah they’re supposed to be neutral observers.

Jessika: Yeah. Strip club rules. So this already a no-no in the scientific community. But he came back, wrote this killer thesis, followed by a best-selling book or two, got a ton of credit and notoriety based on his studying with this traveling shaman named Don Juan. I'm sure you'll be shocked to find out that there was no Don Juan and Castaneda's multi-year anthropological project in Mexico turned out to be more of a [00:43:00] vacation where Castaneda did a lot of peyote, slept with a lot of women, and scoured libraries so that he could pull bits and  pieces out of books and plagiarize them to make his own. So he used a bunch of different spiritual books out of them to make his thesis books coming up. 

Mike:  Woooow.

Jessika: Yeah. It wasn't until years later that somebody recognized one of the  pieces of his book and were like, "wait a second. That sounds like something I've read from this other book." And then it was just this whole can of worms where he was like “wait and this is plagiarized and this is plagiarized.”

Mike: It was so much easier back then to pull off this kind of shit. I feel like I missed my opportunity to cheat my way through school, because even by the time that we were going through high school and college they were starting to get really aggressive about spot checking for plagiarism and things like that.  Now it's really hard to actually plagiarize stuff because of all  the software that’s out there. God damn.

[00:44:00] Jessika: It was also easier to have a second family.

Mike:  Before the age of social media.

Jessika: Yeah. Change your name and…

Mike: Can you even have a cult these days without social media?

Jessika: You might be able to but I think probably a lot of them would be hinged on social media at this point. Like some of those other ones that have been really recent.

Mike: You got to have those influencers who'll sell your cult on Tik ToK.

Jessika: Oh my gosh. I find it fascinating that Lindsey chose to use this particular author to showcase the section of his argument for morality which is regarding abstaining from drugs by the way.

 Mike:  I mean, probably he just didn’t know. Probably this dude hadn’t been exposed yet.

Jessika: Oh no no. Check it out Castaneda most certainly did not abstain from drugs, as I mentioned. And in the book Lindsey makes some vague reference to drugs only being necessary at the beginning of the spiritual journey. So it's like he really was pro-drug but he's also  anti-drug. It was really strange. I re-read that section And I was like I don't know what you're talking [00:45:00] about.  And he credited Castaneda with ceasing to use drugs after a certain point. However it was really just that Castaneda was pretty burnt out after all of his heavy drug use and had to stop doing drugs for health reasons rather than spiritual ones. So while Lindsey doesn't list an exact date at the Rapture, he does make the following prediction. Mike, will you read this blurb from again biblio.com

for me.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. “Hal Lindsey forecasted the end of days would be within the generation of the establishment of Israel. That was 1948. He concluded a generation in the Bible was 40 years. Therefore in 1988 Jesus would establish his kingdom.” 

Jessika: So clearly that happened according to plan. 1988 was a crazy year, wasn't it? Jesus came back…

Mike: Yeah. 1988 was 32 years ago and I don't remember the [00:46:00] rapture happening so

Jessika: I mean, I was two, but I don't either. 

Mike: yeah 

Jessika: And we went to church and I wasn't taken is all I'm saying. What were your overall thoughts on the comic? 

Mike: Hmm Hmm Hmm. Honestly the whole thing feels like just one giant drug trip which, now that I have this perspective, makes a lot more sense. But mainly that was because of all the swirling colors in the backgrounds and the clouds that are present throughout the entire comic.  I just don't know how else to summarize it.  It also feels like Hal Lindsey really used this for his own self promotion more than anything else.  For example, he gets top billing on both the cover and on the first page but the comic's narrated by these three nameless teens who were taken on a magical journey through the Rapture and end times when this girl opens her Bible to the book of Revelations. And then they narrate everything that's supposed to happen [00:47:00] and everything about it It's just this really passive boring exposition.  I don't understand who the target audience for this was.  Biblical apocalyptic fiction was such a massive thing in the nineties and it could definitely be made to feel more exciting. But it always feels universally terrible whenever it's done in  a quote earnest way.  I came of age during the era of those God awful fucking Left Behind books  and Tribulation Force and all of the media that they've put out around it. And it was just really not good. It actually makes me mad because this shit never feels like a good story it's always a vehicle for its creators’ egos. And again the Left Behind stuff, like Kirk Cameron I know was really involved with that too for a while. That dude's just a giant fucking shitheel. Whatever. But honestly  the best moment in this book is when everyone is getting raptured, and one of the kids that refers to the moment as the Great Snatch, like we were talking about.  The moralizing also feels really vague.  If you look at that one page that talks about societal [00:48:00] decay where they list all this really generic stuff like the decline of the family unit and then it shows a bunch of people going into and this was the quote “alternatives to marriage course.”

Jessika: Like what is that? There's not a thing that's called that 

Mike: I don't know. Like my family is literally the embodiment of alternatives to marriage, because  I'm registered as a domestic partner with Sarah. And we did it basically because it was the easiest thing to do during lockdown so that we could make sure that we're taken care of in case something happened to the other person basically we could mail it in. But we get all the same benefits but that wasn't thing back then. Gay marriage wasn't a thing back then. Was it just living together in sin and common law marriage? I don't understand what that was but everything about that  felt like it was that possibly racist argument that's  not quite being racist. But  one of the ongoing things is there's that decline of the black family that they love to sit there  and [00:49:00] pontificate on in conservative media where they talk about black fathers abandoning their families and stuff like that. And I've been around enough of that that it drives me up the wall whenever I hear it. I was kind of bored and kind of mad as I read through this thing because it was just it felt like they really squandered the opportunity to do something really weird and memorable here.

Jessika: What I thought was really funny too about their  timing the events I was looking at the different events that they were listing and they were like "fire from the sky" I was like do you know many times that we could say fire from the sky and like a volcanic eruption or the blitzkrieg or you know there's all these different points in history. Any of these events could have been just this whole situation could have been popped into a different time period and anybody could have felt like they were in the apocalypse. We could be in the apocalypse right now, 2020 was a whole shithole. We had like death wasps.

Mike: Yeah Yeah. My favorite was the one where   the helicopters coming out of the earth was that it [00:50:00] and there's a quote where it's talking about insects coming forth  with battle armor and they're giant. And they're like, “look he perfectly described helicopters 2000 years ago!” 

Jessika: Yeah. He could have been talking about death wasps see? The killer bees. 2021, guys, maybe it's the coming apocalypse I don't know someone should be asking these questions now.

Mike: Well I mean it certainly wasn't like Donald Trump wasn't the antichrist because he was supposed to bring us into a false peace or something like that.

Jessika:Yeah That was not peaceful I know you would've thought though it really had pegged for that If I were going to say anything. 

Mike: Yeah God. So it sounds like we're kind of aligned on this but I’m curious to hear your take on this comic.

Jessika:  What I did like about it and just know I was so entrenched in this whole topic, because I listened to the book and then I also read the comic and I was just so refreshed that it wasn't the book, that I was like a little relieved.  I do love that it's an absolute time capsule [00:51:00] just like the estate sale I found it in the estate sale Literally They had  avocado green  carpet. Yeah like what is I a fringe or no a what's it called? 

Mike: Shag.

Jessika:  Shag. Thank you. Yeah they had avocado green shag.  just it was 1970 threw up in there. It was great I loved it.

Mike: Could you rake the shag carpet? Was it that worn down?

Jessika:  Oh it was like it was Yeah It was like it needed good rake first of all. But I did like the fashion and the overall vibe, cause that's just kinda my style anyway. So I was right there with the illustrations and the outfits drawn in the comic. And honestly if taken ironically the comic is funny as heck.  it's dated It obviously represents that has come and gone  without the promised fall of Armageddons hammer. So that was Spire  Christian comics for you in a nutshell.

Mike: I don't know what I expected any expectations but [00:52:00] this blew away any expectations I could’ve had.

Jessika: I mean hard same. Well let's mosey on along to our Brain Wrinkles which is the one thing that we just can't stop thinking about. Mike why don’t you start us off?  

Mike: So there was a new clip for the upcoming Cruella movie that dropped this week. And… have you seen any of the trailers for this?

Jessika:  I’ve seen one of them, and I generally don’t watch trailers but I was curious.

Mike: Yeah I rolled my eyes so hard when that movie was announced. And every time I see something from it though I keep getting more interested.  I'm actually really digging how punk rock they're making Cruella. It's got a very 1970s British punk vibe which is 100% my jam. And also the cast in this movie is so fucking good. We're not going to pay to see it, obviously we're going to wait until it comes to the common folk on Disney Plus. But I'm curious to see what they do with her. I'm [00:53:00] not sure every villain needs a redemption arc which is something been seeing a lot of lately like the Maleficent movies,  but I appreciate it when it feels really well done Like the case with Harley Quinn, like I was talking about last week.

Jessika: Yeah. Segues right into my brain wrinkle which is every once in a while on a daily basis, because I'm queer as hell, I think about Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. And I think “good for her.” And also like goals of getting out of that bad relationship that Harley was in.  Ivy's so much better for Harley than that toxic ass joker. So. That whole relationship was skeevy I didn't like it. It was one sided and controlling and manipulative and I've never liked it. It's always kind of sat with me in a weird way.  And so when they had this spin I was like “thank goodness.”

[00:54:00] Mike: Even when I was in my twenties and I saw people sharing those memes of “Oh  you just need someone crazy like you” and it's Harley and the Joker and I'm like “he's abusive!”

Jessika: Yes. Yes. 

Mike: Even I could see that. And I was terrible in my twenties.

Jessika: It should be pretty obvious but somehow it just isn’t. I don't know 

Jessika: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us. Text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson, written by Jessika Frazer, and edited by Mike Thompson. That's me. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay area sound. Our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank who goes by cut_thistles on Instagram.

Jessika: If you'd like to get in [00:55:00] touch with us, ask us questions, or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter: The official podcast account is tencenttakes.  Jessika is jessikawitha and Jessika is spelled with a K and Mike is vansau, V a N S a U.  

Mike:   Stay safe out there.

Jessika: And support your local comic shop.

This week, we discuss our thoughts on The Sandman Vol 9: The Kindly Ones. There was a lot we liked, as well as a lot we could've done without. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

This week, we've got a broad spectrum of dollar bin comics: Jessika found a copy of the excellent Rain (released earlier this year) and Mike wound up picking up The Sword of Sorcery from 1973. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

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Mike and Jessika's latest discoveries show the dollar bins continue to bear fruit! This week, we're talking about Orphan and the Five Beasts from Dark Horse, as well as IDW's recent Terminator vs Transformers comic. 

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Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Another dollar bin find pays off! Jessika's discovery of the complete 1980s Firestar miniseries sent us down a rabbit hole complete with the realization that we're going to need to return to the character at some point in order to talk about another series. 

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Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Freeze, creep! This week, we're checking out the 1995 and 2012 attempts to bring Judge Dredd to American movie audiences. Spoiler alert: It didn't work out like the studios hoped. 

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[00:00:00] Mike: That's a little too thirsty, I think. Welcome to Tencent takes the podcast where we violate Mega City One’s judicial codes, one issue at a time. Coming at you live from the hot box of my closet; I have not showered in 24-hours, and I smell fantastic. I'm Mike Thompson and I am joined by my co-host, the princess of pain, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Yaar! I’m also - Mike: How are you smelling? Jessika: God, I'm in a hotbox of pain at the very least, I had to go to work like physically into the office today. So I actually, you know, had to be decent enough to be around people that are masked, so the deodorant had to at least be applied, but. Mike: No hard pass. I work out of my bedroom now, you’re lucky if you get pants. Jessika: Well, that's nice. [00:01:00] Mike: Would you like to explain why we are here? Jessika: You know, we're here because we love comics. Mike, Mike: True. Jessika: We love comics. We want to talk about all the comics. We want to do deep dives about our favorite comics and their heroes, and where they came from. And wild little stories that we find out about them and bringing in nefarious characters like Eric Estrada. He's not a nefarious. Mike: He's a little nefarious. He was involved in a really weird kind of scammy land sale thing. He did also endorse Trump on Twitter. Remember that where he was like - Jessika: Oh God. He is nefarious. Gosh, darn I, why do I always want to give Eric Estrada so much credit? I'm like way too nice to the guy. I don't even know him. I do follow him on Twitter now, but. Mike: No. He literally told Donald Trump on Twitter that he should run for president because he tells it like it is. So thanks, Eric. Thanks. Appreciate that. Jessika: No. That was a bad idea. Like, for [00:02:00] the record, I don't know if anyone else knows that. Everyone else knows that, every other country knows that. Mike: They do now. Jessika: Oh man, we're going to get into some hot topics today, too. This is already a good start. Mike: Yeah. So before I interrupted you, is there anything else that we'd like to cover or talk about or look at? Jessika: Oh, their video games, all the related media movies. Everything, everything comics related, we want to talk about it. Mike: Fair. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Well, today we are going to hop on our Law Masters and cruise the Cursed Earth as we check out both the cinematic adaptations of Judge Dredd. But, before we do that, before we dive into this episode, we'd like to acknowledge a small milestone because this is our 10th episode and we've received over 500 downloads. So, you know, that may not sound like anything major compared to a lot of podcasts out there, but we're incredibly proud of what we've been able to achieve and how far we've gotten so far. And if you're listening to us, we're super [00:03:00] grateful that you've just given us your time. We really appreciate it. So to celebrate, we're going to do a giveaway. If you go to our page on Apple Podcast and leave a rating, and then email us a screenshot of said rating and a review, but that's only if you're inclined, really, we just care about the rating. We’ll enter you to win a $25 gift card from NewKadia. NewKadia actually offers international shipping too. So, even listeners outside of the continental us are eligible. Jessika: That's super exciting! Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So Yeah. Rate us, review us. We appreciate you all. Mike: Even you. Yeah. So I'm talking to you right through your car stereo right now. Jessika: We're there with you driving along. Hey, watch the road. Mike: All right. We're at the point of the episode where we like to start off with one cool thing that we've read or watched lately, do you want to start off? Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I needed a little bit of a palate cleanser after watching the [00:04:00] 2012 dread film so much gore. So I ended up watching Guardians of the Galaxy 2, which I hadn't seen before, and it was super fun. Loved the music as always characters had a really good chance to further develop. Okay. But I have to say, dude, I like still Stalloned myself. I did not know he was in that movie. And then he just shows up and I was like, what the fuck? Cause I literally had just watched them both in a row. And so I literally had just seen Stallone like the movie before that. And then he shows up again and I was like, good lord. Mike: Well, and you know that his crew is like the original Guardians of the Galaxy from the comic books. Jessika: I do. Yeah.I do. Now. I know I looked that up afterwards and I was like, oh, okay. All right. Mike: Yeah. And it was like Michael Rosenbalm, who did the voice of Superman and was Lex Luther in Smallville and the Michelle Yeoh and Ving Rhames. I was totally here for that cameo. That was great. [00:05:00] Jessika: Yeah. It was, once I looked that up, I was like, oh, that makes more sense. Cause I wasn't aware of that. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: it was super fun, but then I Stalloned myself again because I today a guest hosting of trivia for North Bay Trivia in Santa Rosa, at Shady Oak Barrel. And they have like a little arcade game. That's Stallone on the front. And I can't remember, I sent it to you, I think, cause I frickin' Stalloned myself again, secondary Stallone. Mike: I feel like you did. And I can't remember what it was. Jessika: I'd have to look it up, but I'm too lazy to look through my phone. So we'll just leave it. Anyone knows I don't, I don't care anymore. Mike: Fair. Jessika: So, back to the Guardians of the Galaxy after that Stallone detour, I really, really liked the evolution of Gomorrah, Nebula’s relationship. Mike: I love that. I thought it was fantastic. Like I thought honestly, Almost all the characters had really nice [00:06:00] development, except really, I mean, I don't know. I feel like Peter didn't actually develop that much as an actual character. Jessika: No, he was just taken on some Shamaylan twists and turns. Mike: Yeah. But yeah, the whole bit where, Yondu is yelling at Rocket about, you say that I don't know you, but like you're me. And it was oh, oh. Jessika: Gosh. I definitely cried during that movie. I'm not going to lie, but I’m a crier. Mike: There's a lot of feels. There's a lot of feels in that movie. Jessika: Yeah. Oh, it was so good. So overall two thumbs up. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: What about you? What have you been reading? Watching? Mike: Yeah. So, Sarah and I started watching Loki because that just began airing last week, and ahead of that I wound up reading a couple of old issues of Thor, specifically Thor 371 and 372, which are the issues that actually introduced the Time Variance Authority. And the funny thing is that these issues also introduced a character who [00:07:00] may look a little familiar to you, especially as we've been prepping a bit for this particular episode. So check out the cover and tell me if he reminds you of anyone Jessika: Okay. That looks like a, that's so funny. That looks like Captain America, but it also looks like one of those those Doctor Who, like, what are those things called? Mike: The Daleks. So if you take a closer look at that guy that is so his character, his name is Justice Peace. And if you look at the shape of his helmet and he's actually on a sky cycle. Jessika: Oh shit. Mike: But, yeah, it's a pastiche of Judge Dredd. Jessika: He does look like Judge Dredd. You know what threw me was the bright colors, because Judge Dredd has darker tones. So I kinda got drawn more to that kind of vibe, but you're right. He's got the helmet across his face. You can see one of his eyes and the other one looks like it's probably bionic. And it's kind of like a samurai helmet, it looks like. It’s, I think it's supposed to be shaped like more of a samurai style. If I'm not mistaken. Mike: Kind [00:08:00] of which - Jessika: It’s big. Mike: Like actually the, Jessika: I don't. Mike: The old school Judge Dredd helmets, actually, like some of them have actually taken on that look too. Like they've kind of played with the shapes, but anyway, I thought it was just kind of a funny, a funny, a full circle moment. Jessika: He's got some arm bandoliers too. Mike: Yeah, man. Those were big in the eighties. Jessika: I guess. So, dang dude, I'm loving this. Mike: Yeah. It's a lot of fun. We are going to be talking about Judge Dredd in general. We're not going to do a deep dive on the comics, but we're going to talk a bit about the background. And so before we actually do that, I felt like we should take a minute and talk about how of us have grown up with pretty close connections to law enforcement. Do you want to go first? Jessika: No. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So my dad was a police officer for, I think, close to 30 years. And for a lot of it he worked in public safety, which is really like policing and [00:09:00] firefighting and they rotate duties. So you have to know both, you go through both academies. It's supposed to be that you're a little bit more well-rounded and involved, and I don't know, it was. At the time the community was a lot smaller and it probably made more sense, but it's getting bigger. And, I don't know how much sense it makes, but I'm also not an expert. And I haven't lived there for a while, so I don't know what the politics there are these days surrounding that as much as I used to. As far as police officers go, I do know a few really decent people who are police officers and, you know, growing up, I had mostly good experiences. However, that hasn't been the case for everyone. And my privilege of being raised white and a child of a law enforcement officer has absolutely shielded me from so many of the issues and policing that plagues our country. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And I have to say like, unironically, my dad was a decent cop. He's still alive. But when he was still in law enforcement, he was a decent cop and [00:10:00] he definitely let his ethics guide him, and he left positions based on his moral compass. And I'm really proud of him for leaving organizations that were more on the corrupt side or that weren't doing things that he thought they should be doing and abiding by their own rules. However, he's also the one who taught me about profiling, which is a conversation I remember having with him around 9 or 10 years old, maybe earlier than that. And that's just such a racist tactic that has never really sat right with me. And that I adamantly oppose now that I'm older and I have a better understanding of how we as a society, villainize people of color just for existing. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So without getting too far into what is a really, really massive conversation and discussion, the judicial system in this country is absolutely broken, and we statistically arrest convict and give longer incarceration timeframes to people of color. Mike: Yeah. I mean, there's, [00:11:00] that's just a fact. Jessika: It’s a fact. There, there are numbers, you can look it up, you know, it's yeah. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So, I know, on that fun note, whatever, I'm such a downer. Mike: That's okay. I should have known better than to start us off on this, you know, really positive note for the episode. Jessika: I already got fired up. I'm already going to have to edit out my mumbling. Mike: That's all right. You know, it's funny because I have to wonder if my uncle actually knew your dad because my uncle was in the same area and works in public safety as well. So, he always did the firefighting and police work as well. My uncle is the guy that I grew up idolizing when I was a kid. He was the cool uncle to me. He taught me the basics of photography. And I worked as a freelance photographer for awhile. He was a forensic specialist dealing with fingerprinting. So you and I [00:12:00] grew up in the 90’s in the Bay Area. So Polly Klaas is a name that any, anyone who was here during that time knows, and she was a girl who was kidnapped out of her home, basically just taken while she was having a sleep over with some friends out of her home in Petaluma. And the FBI apparently came in and did a Palm print, but they use some fluorescent powder that the local PD couldn't read, but my uncle had the training and I guess the equipment, I don't quite know all the details, but so he worked the Polly Klaas case. He and my aunt are both retired police and they were both so incredibly cool to me when I was growing up. And I've since had to reckon with the fact that, you know, not all cops are good, and I'd hope that they were great. I hope that they were the bar that other cops were measured against, but who can say it, this. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: So we, we both have connections to law enforcement, and I think it's safe [00:13:00] to say that we're approaching Judge Dredd from a perspective that is influenced both by our backgrounds, as well as the current environment that's going on because we're recording this in June of 2021 when things are still real bad in a lot of ways. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: So now that we've got that highlight out of the way. I'm curious, what was your awareness of Judge Dredd prior to this. Jessika: You know, besides name recognition, I didn't know much about the plot line, other than some vague notion that it was futuristic or post-apocalyptic. So, I came into this super fresh, and I'm super excited to learn more now. Mike: Yeah. So, I definitely have a lot more familiarity with the character. I read some of his stuff in the 90’s and 2000’s. I would just kind of randomly find things and I thought he was pretty cool. When I was in roller derby, my roller derby name actually wound up being Judge Dreadful. [00:14:00] And so I've since then bought a number of collections. I've read most of the big storylines that they did from the 70’s up until the mid-90’s. And then I also read one of the more recent American series as well. I've seen all the movies. Dred is still one of my favorite movies of all time, even though we'll talk about that later on, it's got its own issues through today's lens. I guess the best way I can describe myself is: I'm more than a casual fan, but I'm not a diehard fan. Part of it is just because there's so much lore at this point. So, I have an unfair advantage in terms of familiarity, I guess. Sorry. Jessika: No, that's okay. That's why you're hosting this episode. Not me. Mike: Yeah. So, we're going to do some basic background. Dredd was originally created in 1977 for this newly launched comics anthology called 2000 AD. There was this guy, he was an editor named Pat Mills and he brought on a writer that he'd worked with named John Wagner to create new content for this magazine. [00:15:00] And, basically comics, anthology magazines, they were printed on like newspaper stock. They were magazine format. And what it was very kind of, you know, old school pulp magazine, like where it was serial stories usually, or a little one-offs. So it'd be four to five pages, usually of content per story. And then a lot of times they would end on a cliffhanger so that, you know, the readers would come back the next week. And that's generally how British comics have worked. At least that's my understanding of it. That's how a lot of them are. And actually when they were trying to do US style sized comics, supposedly they didn't do as well because they would get covered up basically and overshadowed by the sheer size of these magazines, which were much bigger and flashier. So Wagner came into 2000 AD. He'd had a lot of success writing this Dirty Harry kind of character called One-Eyed Jack for another anthology series called Valiant, and both he and Mills realized that 2000 AD needed [00:16:00] a quote unquote, a hardcore cop character as part of the magazine's content. So, Wagner has since then described, dread as a psycho cop with no feelings. And then he worked with this artist named Carlos Escuera to create the character and then Escuera wound up designing a character who reflected that kind of hardcore, no feelings ideal. He actually died a couple of years ago and the Guardian ran a really, it was really nice ,tribute talking about his accomplishments and his style, but there's this really great quote, which I think you should actually read out. And it gives us a lot of background in a nutshell of Dredd and who he is. Jessika: Escuera started his career drawing war comics in Barcelona before moving to the UK and working for the anthology 2000 AD and others, He brought the iconography of fascist Spain to Dredd’s extremely weird and [00:17:00] vivid design and combined it with his experiences of living in Croydon through the 70’s and 80’s, the punk movement on his doorstep and TV images of policemen, charging striking miners. The Eagle motif and helmet were drawn from fascism, the permanently drawn truncheon from police on the picket line. The zips chains and knee pads from punk. I was living in Franco, Spain, he told an interviewer last year, but also I was living in Mrs. Thatcher's England. Mike: I think that kinda tells us all we need to know about what they're going for with the vibe of Judge Dredd. Jessika: Yeah. No, that, that definitely showed. I was thinking that about the Eagle. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: When they were showing the big building and it was super, everything was just cement and. Mike: Yeah. It's got that brutalist kind of architecture. Yeah. Jessika: Yes. Mike: Yeah. So Dred exists in this world. That's left standing after World War III, and [00:18:00] most of the planet’s just been devastated. America is largely uninhabitable, say for a couple of what are called Mega Cities, which are these autonomous city states that housed hundreds of millions of people. At one point in the comics, I think it's up to 800 million and they've had different events where they've kind of knocked it down repeatedly, Jessika: Yikes. Mike: And at one point it got as low as like 120 million or so I think that was kind of after I stopped reading though. But anyway, mega city one was originally going to be a future version of New York City. But that was quickly retconned to that specific part, being some sort of capital area for this urban sprawl that covers most of the Eastern seaboard. And from the get-go, Dredd stories were kind of this extreme form of satire. It was presenting the society where democracy basically failed, and the office of the president of the United States has been retired, and society now runs under this, to be honest, terrifying gaze of the Judges. How would you sum up the [00:19:00] Judges based on what we saw in the movies? Jessika: As a whole, they were pretty robotic and unfeeling. They were doling out the letter of the law as it happened and per their protocol, and their justice is swift and immediate, which is really terrifying. Like you said to imagine. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And what's even scarier is that all crimes were treated the same. You are either sent to a prison called an isopod, or killed right then and there. There was, there were no middle grounds between those points. It was like, you're hauled off then, you serve a sentence, or you're just killed. Mike: Yeah. I mean, that's really not that different from the comics. Jessika: And then, as far as their appearance, as with most uniforms, they dress the same with helmets and body armor and they are just armed to the gills and they look just as scary as they act. Mike: Yeah. And, I think a safe way to describe the system of Mega City [00:20:00] one is to call it authoritarian, but it's just a little bit different than what we normally associate with that term. Jessika: Yeah. I wonder if there's some sort of like a law-tarian like judiciatarion. I don't know, somebody is going to @ me and tell me how stupid I am, but that's fine. I already know. Mike: I like, I like, I liked judicialtarion. I think that's, uh, if that's not a word we should make it one. Jessika: Here we are, TM TM. Mike: Yeah, we're just going to sit back and let the royalties roll in after this. Yeah, but in spite of all this, there's this very weird, dry, British humor that kind of makes the whole narrative a little more palatable. So like one of the early stories is focusing on how robots were doing most of society's work and that's resulted in rampant, unemployment and boredom, so citizens of the mega blocks start engaging in what they call block wars, where neighboring blocks basically just start opening fire on each other because they want something to do. There's another story where the Dark Judges, who [00:21:00] are, they're effectively movie monster versions of the Judges as we know them crossover into Dredd’s reality. And then they start slaughtering people, indiscriminately, because all crime is committed by the living. And, thus the sentence for life is death. Jessika: Yikes. Mike: Or, there's also the idea that recycled food is, what they call it, is how they eat these days. But recycled food is actually made from people you know, it's Soylent Green Jessika: Oh, How Soylent Green. Yeah. Mike: Yeah. The Dredd comics always have this kind of underlying tone of absurdity. It's that slight bit of levity that makes this really brutal comic actually pretty enjoyable because it becomes ridiculous. It's a comic of extremes. Over time, the comics gone on to deal with things like Dredd having to resolve how the system that he represents is actually problematic, and it needs some kind of reform. The ramifications of how the push to move back to democracy fails and, [00:22:00] you know, actually fleshing him out as a character who occasionally has feelings, not all the time, but just sometimes. He goes from being kind of a lawful neutral character to a lawful kind of good alignment, like sort of good, kind of, some of the time. There's only so long that you can have a character be a robot for justice, if nothing else before, you know, people are going to sour on them. Jessika: You mean a veritable killing machine? Mike: Yeah. The other thing is that the core Dredd stories haven't really been reset. They're still going from 2000 AD, so at this point we have nearly 50 years of stories that are all canon. And the other thing is that they keep on aging Dredd in realtime. So, at this point he's absurdly old and they hand wave it away by he spends time in the Rejuva-pods or whatever they are. But as a result, he's the same guy who has seen everything that has gone on in the comics. [00:23:00] And as a result, he's matured and changed a bit. And it's kinda neat. So in the UK Dredd’s a pretty big deal, but his presence in America isn't quite the same. Like UK comic magazines back then were very different from comics here in the states. So, when they decided to bring them over here across the pond, 2000 AD wound up working with this guy named Nick Landau, who a couple of years earlier had created tightened books to publish comic collections of Judge Dredd in the UK, and then was publishing more collections of other things. Landau had just created Eagle Comics to collect and publish Dredd stories and other 2000 AD stuff. Uh, here in the States in 1983, the Eagle series lasted for about three-ish-is years, and then it moved on to another publisher. And this is pretty much how Dredd existed in the states in the 80’s and 90’s; a publisher would pick up the rights, and then try to make them click with American readers, and then the [00:24:00] series would get canceled, and then someone else would pick them up and try to do it again. And arguably his most quote unquote mainstream moment was when DC comics published an 18 issue series from 94 to 96. I've only gotten through a couple of these issues and they don't quite bite like the originals. They feel more like an action sci-fi series. Some weird kind of sarcastic humor, but it doesn't quite translate the same way. It feels like a knockoff product, to be honest. I mean, honestly the best American adaptation I've seen is from the 2012 series that IDW did. And that condensed several of the iconic Dredd storylines from the original British run. So they were a little bit more palatable for American audiences, but basically American awareness of the characters generally stayed that level of, oh yeah, that sounds kind of familiar. And then he's never really been a household name, which was what the 1995 movie was trying to change. [00:25:00] Jessika: Yeah, well, it didn't change it for me, but I was also, you know, I was also nine in 1995. So. Mike: *Sigh* I was 14. Jessika: You're only a few years older - you say that like you're 90 now, by the way, every one for the record, Mike is 90. Mike: I am. Jessika: Since he's making a huge deal out of it. Mike: I'm waiting on my Rascal. Scooter Just gonna, just gonna drive through downtown Petaluma with my dogs in my side car. We're all gonna be wearing goggles and flight helmets. And you'll see me go by and just gol “RASCAL!” Jessika: My dude, you can do that now. Mike: Sarah has told me I can't do that yet. We've had this discussion. Jessika: Oh, that's too bad. Mike: Now that we've got the background out of the way, why don't we actually talk about what we're here to talk about? Which is the 1995 Judge Dredd movie. [00:26:00] Jessika: Here we are. Mike: Yeah. Do you remember those TV schedules that used to be in the back of the newspaper, they would show you like A) what was on the air that night and B) provide one sentence summaries of what the movies were? Do you remember those? Jessika: I do because I loved reading those. Mike: I know I did too. How would you summarize Stallone's Judge Dredd, if you were writing it up in that format? Jessika: Oh, need a throat clear for that. In a world where chaos reigns, one man stands between justice and lawlessness. But what happens when the Judge becomes the judged? Find out this Wednesday at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time, 9:00 PM Eastern on Spike TV. I just assume Spike TV would play that. Mike: Spike TV would be all over this. Are you kidding? Jessika: Yeah, no, exactly. That was the first television channel that I thought of that was like, yeah, they would [00:27:00] absolutely have this on like they'd have a Dredd marathon. Mike: God, what an absolute time capsule of a TV channel - is, Spike TV isn't around still, is it? I don't know. Jessika: I have no idea. I was my, my 90’s brain just woke up and was like, this is what you say. Mike: God. I remember that was such a mid to late aughts TV channel. It was basically toxic masculinity, the TV channel. Jessika: Yeah. It was, it was either super masculine movies like this, or it was just a game show about people falling all over each other and just laughing at people. Mike: Oh yeah. Was it Most Extreme Challenge? Jessika: Most Extreme Elimination Challenge Yep. As I sit here and I know exactly what it, cause I didn't watch a million episodes of that. Mike: No I'm, that was the only reason that I would turn that fucking channel on. Jessika: Yeah. It's true. My brother and I would roll. Mike: No, so, okay. I just looked it up and we don't need to [00:28:00] actually record the sorry, uh, Paramount Network, formerly Spike, which is still used for the Dutch in Australian feed as an American, but you know, whatever, fuck Jessika: The Australians don’t even listen to us. I'm leaving all of this in, and the Australians don't listen to us, yet. Oh God. They're going to listen to us now. And they're going to be like, oy yes we do. I can't, I'm not even going to try, not even to try to do some like, incredibly offensive Australian accent. Mike: No, no, don’t do it. Jessika: No, no, I know about it. Mike: Okay. Let's go for an actual movie summary now. Jessika: Sure set in a, oh, sorry. Regular voice, Jessika. Set in a dystopian future complete with a densely populated metropolis and flying cars, order is dictated and carried out by people called Judges, whose job is to convict, judge, and punish those moving outside of the law. The punishments [00:29:00] are severe, being jailed or even killed for their transgressions. Stallone, who plays Judge Joseph dread is seemingly one of the most feared and respected judges until he is framed by a maniacal and presumed to be dead ex-judge Rico. Dredd has to prove his innocence in order to continue providing his particular brand of justice. Oh, and how can I forget about Rob Schneider? Whose main role in this film was to say Dredd’s named really loudly. So they would get caught when they were trying to be covert. I mean, at least that's how it felt. Mike: Yeah, whenever I talk about this movie, I always sit there and reference how Robert Schneider is the worst choice to provide, you know, it's not even comic relief. It's like air quotes, comic relief. Schneider was really big at that time. Like, he had just come out of SNL and I never found them really to be all that funny. But, this was like at the [00:30:00] start of his whole 90’s. I don't know. What would you call that movement? Jessika: God, it was like the stupid humor movement. Mike: Yeah, it was that Adam Sandler. Jessika: I talk like I'm a baby. Adam Sandler. I can deal with, to a certain extent. There are some movies, I'm just like, whatever, but I've liked him in some things even, but I feel like Will Ferrell is a result of Adam Sandler. I feel like Adam Sandler, birthed will Ferrell and I'm not happy about it. I do not like Will Farrell Mike: Man, I. Jessika: @ me Will Ferrell. I do not like you. Mike: Just watch, he's going to like angrily tweet and then we're going to get a bunch of, you know, I guess, angry gen X-ers I'll all up in our DMS. Jessika: OPress? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that bad press wasn't just good press also, because it is. Mike: Yeah. And I mean, this was before Schneider was given starring [00:31:00] roles in movies like Deuce Bigalow, which I have yet to see a Rob Schneider movie that I don't find absolutely abhorrent for a number of reasons. Yeah. Jessika: Especially in retrospect. Mike: Yeah. I mean, he's not offensive in this movie, he’s just not very funny and kind of useless, even though he's supposed to be the plucky comic sidekick, which, I mean, this was part of that era of buddy action cop movies, except just in a different setting. Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. It was just very grating. The humor Mike: Yeah. , Jessika: And forced. Mike: Yeah. So, your summary is spot on. There's also detours into the Cursed Earth where Dredd is wrongfully convicted. And then, this is something where they diverged from the comic lore, but they're traveling to the penal colony in Aspen, when actually the penal colonies are all off-world. So it's, you basically get sent there for hard labor, off-planet and it's not exactly described what, and then he has to come back from the Cursed Earth, after dealing with the [00:32:00] cannibalistic Angel Gang. And then there's the reveal that he's a clone, which at this point in time is not really a big deal. Like, everybody knows it in the lore and yeah, we get a climactic battle at the statue of Liberty. Also, Joan Chen shows up for no real reason other than to be a woman for Diane Lane to fight. Jessika: Yeah, exactly. Mike: But yeah, it’s not a great movie. Jessika: No, no. Mike: But there are parts of it that I still really enjoy. Sarah and I wound up watching it together and all of the practical, special effects that they did are still so good and they look so good. And, and honestly the action scenes are pretty decent for, you know, a mid 90’s movie, even where there's that bit with the flying motorcycles, where they're being chased and they knock off one of the Judges chasing them that bit, where he's falling into the bottomless abyss of Mega City looked [00:33:00] really good and I couldn't help, but think of Ninja Turtles 3, where on the other hand, the bad guy getting knocked off into the ocean looks like garbage. Jessika: Yeah, no, that, I was really impressed by that. Especially considering the timeframe it was in. Mike: Yeah. So this movie really tried to smash together a lot of those classic Dredd moments from the comic book. And it was trying to basically create something new while giving fans a lot of nods that they would appreciate. The funny thing is that it was really focusing on the story of Rico Dredd after he comes back from serving his prison time, but in the comic, he only shows up for a one-shot serial story. If I remember right where he comes back from serving prison time in a colony on Saturn's moon of Titan. So if I remember this, right, he's just this kind of one-off character who shows up pretty early in the Dredd stories. Like, I, [00:34:00] I don't think the Dredd stories had even been published for a year by that point. It's like the 30th issue or so, and then he's shot down by Dredd in a duel and the whole, the logic behind it is that he tries to get the drop on Dredd, but his reactions are slower because he's been operating in lower gravity for a while. Jessika: Interesting, but he's still supposed to be a clone, right? Mike: Yeah, he's he, it's originally noted that he's Dredd’s brother. And then there's the whole club thing that, that shows up later on and all that, but he also looks way different from Armand Assante in the movie, I'm sending you an image, you can take a quick look and see what Rico Dredd looks like after his prison time in the comic. Jessika: Oh, you would not get those two confused. Mike: Yeah. It's um. Jessika: This guy's got this, guy's like a metal face. Now he's got a nice little head band with probably a laser coming out the top. And then he's got like, no nose any longer. He's just got metal over his nose. There's metal stuff going into his mouth. And like [00:35:00] half of his face just doesn't have skin anymore. And you can tell one of his eyes is blind. It's pretty wild. His hair is all crazy. He's not having a good hair day. It's a look. Mike: It's a look. Yeah. So the whole idea is that when you get shipped off to these colonies, you are basically surgically modified to survive in the environment. Jessika: Oh. Mike: Yeah. So, definitely not what we got in the movie. Jessika: No. You had a guy that actually looked a lot like Stallone. They did a pretty good job of that, if they were going for lookalikes. Mike: Yeah. They were both very fit dudes who had those very strong chin lines. And then they also gave them cosmetic contact lenses so that they would actually have blue eyes, which is why. Jessika: That's what I thought. Mike: When you look at Stallone, you're like, mm, pretty sure God didn't make those eyes. That color. Jessika: Yeah. It's not so bad from certain angles, but other ones you're like, wow, Snowpiercer what's up. Mike: Yeah, it looks [00:36:00] very weird when you're, especially when you're watching it in high-def these days, it looks unnatural. I'm not sure how it would look on a TV or in a movie theater in 1995. I'm a little curious because I didn't get to see it. I was too young to go see an R-rated movie back then, womp womp. But yeah, so likewise, the character of Hershey, who is Diane Lane's character, she first appeared in a 1980 story called the Judge Child, which is this it's this cool thing where it starts off as a road trip across the Cursed Earth, and the Angel Gang who we see in the movie shows up, and then it becomes this weird space opera as Dredd winds up chasing after the Angel Gang and the kidnapped Judge Child across multiple star systems, which again, talking about the weird absurdity of Judge Dredd. So, it's weird to see her in this movie because I always associate Diane Lane with Under the Tuscan Sun. I mean, I've never even seen that movie, but that's just always what I [00:37:00] think of when I see her. Jessika: Oh, same. I definitely see her in an Italian villa and I have not seen that either. Mike: Yeah. Although she did play Superman's mom in the DCEU. Jessika: Oh yeah. Mike: So there was that, her finest role, you know, when she gets sad about Superman with Lois Lane, and then it turns out to be a Martian green dude. Jessika: We're going to have so many movie stars, not happy with us. Mike: I know. Jessika: They'll just be crying in all of their money. It's fine. Mike: Oh, no two lame nerds on the internet were mean to me. I just, uh. Jessika: My nightmare. Mike: They made vaguely negative remarks about me. All right. Jessika: Oh, let me use this 50 to dry my tears. Mike: Anyway. Yeah, so [00:38:00] Diane Lane shows up in Judge Dredd, and she's like way more of a damsel in distress and then weirdly a romantic interest for Dredd than anything else. And that was really bizarre to see, because with the hindsight of the comics, that character in Dredd A) Hershey is like a bad-ass cop. She is a hardcore street Judge. But she and Dredd actually have often had kind of an antagonistic relationship based on differing perspectives about how the justice system should operate. Jessika: Oh, interesting. Mike: Yeah. And eventually, she goes on to be the Chief Judge. Jessika: Oh, good for her. Mike: Yeah, you know, she busted through that glass ceiling. Jessika: Man. It just took, you know, going through a third world war, ladies, this is what we have to look forward to. Just wait for the flying motorcycles. We'll be there. Mike: Well, you know, you don't have to cook because we're just recycling people at that point. So, you know, frees up a lot of time. [00:39:00] Jessika: Oh, perfect. Mike: You don't have to, don't have to stand in the kitchen and make all of us men folk roasts all day. Jessika: Oh, perfect. Well, dang. What will I do? Mike: Okay. overthrow the patriarchy, I guess. Jessika: Let's do it. Mike: Yeah. And then additionally, you know, Dredd himself was pretty different from what we had in the comics. The movie violated this key component of the character by spending a lot of time focused on Dredd out of uniform, which means that we got to see his face. And it's such a known thing that this is not something that Dredd does, but it's actually one of the first points in Dreads, Wikipedia article, if you would be so kind. Jessika: Sure. Dredd’s entire face is never shown in the strip. This began and is an unofficial guideline, but soon became a rule. As John Wagner explained, it sums up the facelessness of justice. [00:40:00] Justice has no soul, so it isn't necessary for readers to see Dredd’s face. And I don't want you to. Mike: Which I mean, I think that's actually a really cool defining aspect of the character. Jessika: And it's always scarier if you can't see what you're fighting. Mike: Yeah. Agreed. Jessika: I mean, that's basic horror film rule, you know, it's always scarier if you can't see what's chasing you. Mike: Yeah. I kind of equate it to the recent Alien movie that they did. Alien Isolation, where they explained the origin for the alien species. And I was sitting there and going, there is nothing that you could tell me that would be worse than what I come up with in my mind when you've got a really nebulous origin. Jessika: Exactly. Mike: And then I watched the movie and I was like, that's dumb. I'm going back to my original design. I like that better. Jessika: Yeah. It's like Signs was really scary until they brought that stupid alien life being in. And then I was like, well, there it goes. Mike: Yeah. [00:41:00] Curse you, Shamaylan! Judge Dredd is one of those movies where when you watch it, it feels like the people that were involved with making it really had a lot of fun, and were really passionate about what they were doing. Like I've got the making-of book, and you can actually see the set that they built basically on a patch of farmland that became the street for Mega City One. And it's crazy. It wound up having hundreds of neon signs after they built it. It looked like a living, breathing street from this strange city in the future. It was really cool. And likewise, there's that ABC warrior robot that we get to see a couple of times who looks absolutely incredible. And the costume designs are really cool. They don't quite work because you know, it's spandex, but it's very faithful to the comic. And, even the final scenes in the Statue of Liberty where you're in the lab and you've got all those clones being grown, I don't quite understand why the clones are [00:42:00] mostly grown, but we can still see their intestines, but they look really cool. Jessika: I agree. Yeah. Mike: That said, the movie had a lot of production problems. And in fact, it actually had to get re-cut and submitted to the NPAA five times in order to get just an R rating down from an NC 17. Jessika: Dang. Mike: And by the way, we need to talk about the fact that this movie is rated R and if you watch it, it does not feel like an R rated movie. It feels like maybe a PG 13 movie at this point, maybe. Jessika: Maybe, I mean, and that would just be for the violence, Mike: I mean, yeah, but, compared to what gets rated PG 13 these days? Jessika: Yes. Mike: I think if I remember right, one of the Aliens vs Predator movies, maybe both of them are rated PG 13 and they're way more violent and gory. Jessika: Really? Wow. Mike: I mean, I could be completely wrong. Jessika: Who rates these movies? I mean, not a real question. We don't need to get into that, but that's wild to me. Mike: We'll go on a very tiny side tangent, but. Highly recommend you watch the movie. This [00:43:00] film is not yet rated, which talks about the NPAA and the ratings board and how weird and secretive it is. And just a how dumb and arbitrary their system is. Jessika: I might watch that tonight. Mike: It's great. I highly recommend it. So there was an interview with Steven D'Souza, who was the guy who actually wrote the script for Judge Dredd. e was talking to Den of Geek, he shed some light on how the movies, problematic production wound up leading to this mess that we wound up receiving, if you would be so kind. Jessika: Why sure. Judge Dredd was actually supposed to be a PG 13 movie, the production company at the time, Synergy, they were having some financial troubles, so they didn't have any UK executives on location in England. And in their absence, the director, Danny Cannon, wanting to make it true to the comic book, was making everything more and more and [00:44:00] more violent. So when the movie was delivered to be cut, it was rated X and it was rated X four times. They say you can't appeal after four, four is all you get. Somehow the producer, Ed Pressman, managed one more time to get it rated R which actually wasn't a victory because this was supposed to be PG 13. They had made a deal with Burger King, oop. I think, and a toy company. And you can't advertise toys for an R-rated movie and no hamburger plays, wants toys for an R-rated movie. So they hamburger people and the toy people turned around and sued Disney, the distributor whoop. Mike: Hmm. Oops. Jessika: Well, Disney then said, we'll take this out of the director's hide because he signed a piece of paper saying he would deliver a PG 13, but Synergy who was releasing it through Disney at that point had never done [00:45:00] anything, but an R-rated movie, nobody in the entire company had ever had the experience of putting that piece of paper in front of a director. So they had to pay him. They couldn't withhold his salary for violating a legal promise they never asked him to make. Mike: I kind of love that. Jessika: Blunders. Mike: Yeah. That interview also notes that the scene where the reporter gets killed by Rico and he's framing Dredd. It was way more violent and gory, and it looked like something out of Robocop. And then additionally, there was the bit where Rico tells his robot to tear off the arms and legs of the council of five Judge that he's been working with. And he says, rip off his arms and legs and then save his head for last. And so it was originally supposed to be a scene where basically it cuts away to Rico walking away or something like that or shadows or something, and then you just hear the screams and that's it. But [00:46:00] apparently they made a full animatronic robot that had the arms and legs actually getting ripped off and like spewing blood. Jessika: Yikes, no. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Guys. Mike: Yeah. So this was clearly one of those things desires were not clearly communicated. So Stallone gave an interview to Uncut Magazine in 2008. And he talked about a bunch of the things that, that went wrong with that movie, including this weird story about Danny Cannon, where he said, I knew we were in for a long shoot when for no explainable reason, Danny Cannon, who's rather diminutive, jumped down from his director's chair and yelled to everyone within earshot. Fear me, everyone should fear me. Then jumped back up to his chair as if nothing happened. The British crew was taking bets on his life expectancy. Jessika: Yikes. Yeah, the guy's going to give himself a coronary. Holy moly. Mike: It reminds [00:47:00] me a little bit of the stories that were coming out of the Suicide Squad set. Jessika: Oh. Yeah, I'm hearing more and more stories of just things that actors are being put through on set, and it's just, I don't care who you are, you shouldn't have to deal with this bullshit while you're working. Mike: I don't envy them. Jessika: Yeah, I don't either. I mean, there has to be ways that doesn't hurt people to entertain us. Mike: Yeah. Back onto this topic of Judge Dredd itself, it was this movie that costs $95 million and that's in 1995. So adjusting for inflation, that's roughly $190 million in 2021 dollars. Jessika: Whew. Mike: For reference there's a bunch of MCU flicks that when adjusting for that inflation costs less than Judge Dredd did. The R rating in turn, and kind of the lackluster end product, resulted in $113 million at the box office worldwide. And that was a lot less than Stallone, and really everyone else, was hoping for, [00:48:00] they were legit hoping that this was going to be just a blowout success story, and they could make a franchise out of it. So we've already talked about how they were trying to make this into something that they can market to kids. And we still got some products that show that was the plan. There were a couple of associated products, like a junior novelization, and a comic adaptation of the movie from DC comics itself. And then a video game that's actually, it's not bad. It's like a side scroller and the movie story ends about, I think, halfway through. And then you go on to a bunch of different worlds and end up fighting those Dark Judges that I was talking about earlier, which is kinda cool. Yeah. It's fine. But anyway, none of these tie-in products really seemed to land. How did you feel about this film overall? I'm curious. Jessika: Is it bad to say a came across as a little cheesy? Mike: No, not at all. [00:49:00] Jessika: Like a nice wholly Swiss cheese. There were some mega plot holes that were very apparent. That kind of took me out of the experience saying that a lot this episode, but way to go guys. And it made me really overthink aspects of the storyline. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Like the whole, how did you not know where were clones? Did you not accidentally ever pick up the other person's gone and we're like, why can't I use this? If you have the DNA testing, it just, it didn't make a lot of sense. And how can you sequence two different guns if you only have one sequence of DNA? I don't get that either. Mike: Yeah. Part of that is just because it was 1995. DNA was still like a really hot topic for plots. It was new science. It was really exciting. I mean. Jessika: That’s fair. Mike: We were in the throws of the OJ Simpson trial, and so DNA evidence was a really big thing there, but yeah. Jessika: Hot button item. You're right, I think, buzzword. Mike: And so that kind of goes into the whole [00:50:00] idea of clones as well, but that's an established plot line of Dredd itself. But I mean, like I remember, there's a bit where they focus on the flying Law Master motorcycle and they say, well, if you can ever get it to work, it will be yours. And they bust out and then there's several other flying Law Masters chasing after them. Jessika: Well, when they're talking about those motorcycles, I think they're trying to liken them to really bad quality, government issue, like these things are a piece of shit, but you can probably get em into the air, and have the worst model sitting there for the newbies to fuck around with. But I don't know, that’s that was my takeaway from it just because I also remember, not that the cars are bad necessarily, the police cars, but it's like, they're stripped down to nothing, they’re just like a car. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: None of the fancy shit. Mike: Yeah. Those, those good old Crown Vics. Jessika: Oh Yeah. And I think that part of it for me was the serious scenes, like the courtroom scene, especially mix in Rob Schneider in any of [00:51:00] those situations. And it was just a little much. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Stallone played it really straight and really intense and it doesn't quite work. It feels almost like a high school drama production where you're watching those kids onstage, they're acting too hard. They've turned their acting dials up to 11 and you're like, okay buddy, we needed it like a seven. Jessika: I'm just imagining a man, like a child on stage, shaking. His arm is shaky. He's got a skull in his head and he was just screaming out lines from Hamlet. You're like, ooh, buddy, calm down. Mike: Yeah. Yurick can't hear you Hamlet. He's already dead. I think it's okay. Jessika: Womp womp. Mike: Yeah. My take on it, aside from the fact that it's a little bit too faithful and too earnest is that this reminds me of that situation where you take a bunch of different ingredients that you think are going to taste amazing and you've slapped them together into a sandwich. And then you realize the combination doesn't work, but yet you end up eating it anyway. [00:52:00] Jessika: Been there. Mike: Like, we talked about the sets, the makeup, the costumes, even the special effects, those are all great, but the script and then Stallone's performance really kind of do it a disservice, and even Sly has acknowledged that the movie missed the mark. So that earlier interview that I mentioned with Uncut Magazine, he had a really great point where he talks about how it didn't work. Jessika: I loved that property when I read it, because it took a genre that I love what you could term the action morality film, and made it a bit more sophisticated. It had political overtones. It showed how, if we don't curb the way we run our judicial system, the police may end up running our lives. It dealt with archaic governments. It dealt with cloning and all kinds of things that could happen in the future. It was also bigger than any film I've done in its physical stature and the way it was designed, all the people were dwarfed by the system and the architecture. It shows how insignificant [00:53:00] human beings could be in the future. There's a lot of action in the movie and some great acting, too. It just wasn't balls to the wall. But I do look back on Judge Dredd as a real missed opportunity. It seemed that lots of fans had a problem with Dredd removing his helmet because he never does in the comic books. But for me, it is more about wasting such great potential there was in that idea, just think of all the opportunities there were to do interesting stuff with the Cursed Earth scenes. It didn't live up to what it could have been. It probably should have been much more comic, really humorous and fun. What I learned out of that experience was that we shouldn't have tried to make it Hamlet. It's more Hamlet and eggs. That's so funny that I brought up Hamlet! I didn't read ahead. Mike: I was laughing about that actually. Yeah. And I mean, he's not wrong. I think he played it too straight and too serious. And they also tried to make it an action buddy comedy [00:54:00] movie, which it just, it doesn't quite work. Like the, the tone with Dredd is you have to walk a really fine line. They didn't stick to it this time. Yeah. I feel like it was trying to be extremely faithful to the source material, which always walked this very fine line tonally, and then it blew past it to create something that's just it's way too earnest. And over the top, it kind of reminded me of Jupiter Ascending. If you remember that movie. Jessika: I do. Mike: Yeah. It's this movie that has crazy high production values, a pretty great cast actually, and a really big story. And then it all combines into something that's honestly kind of underwhelming. Jessika: And forgettable, cause I kind of forget what that whole plot line of that movie is. And I think I've seen it twice cause I was like, I don't think I've seen this before. And I sat through the whole thing again. It's one of those movies. Mike: I just remember a lot of shirtless Channing Tatum and. Jessika: Oh, yeah, he wasn't at sea. I don't even know. Mike: Yeah. Do you have any more thoughts before we move on to [00:55:00] the 2012 remake kind of, it's not really a remake. It's just the 2012 movie. Jessika: No let's Rob Schneider, our way out of this. Mike: I'm not sure I liked that verb. Jessika: I was using it as: do something really stupid to get out of a situation. And I think I did it just by saying that. Mike: All right. How would you describe this movie? Give it, give another quick summary. Jessika: Mega City One. The future. There are still flying cars, but less of them. In a packed city rife with violence, Judge Joseph Dredd is assessing a new potential recruit to the force. This recruit isn't like the others. However, she is psychic; a mutant! In answering their first call, they inadvertently get themselves involved in a large scale drug operation and have to kill or be killed in order to survive. This film has no sympathy for innocent bystanders, who are killed by the dozens each [00:56:00] scene. And the Judges are swift to kill any who might oppose them. They finally escape using their wits and these psychic’s ability, all while taking down a drug ring. Ta-da, all in a day's work. Mike: Dread came out right around the same time, I think a little bit after, as this movie out of, I think Thailand called The Raid. Which it's about a police force. That's basically working their way up through a skyscraper. And it's another really intense action movie. It's got really kick-ass action scenes. It's really good. And the sad thing is it's just that and Dredd have a similar plot based on that, but it's also very different. So there were a lot of unfair comparisons to that at the time. Jessika: I see. Mike: How do you feel this movie compares with the Stallone one? Jessika: It was definitely more serious and more bloody, for sure. It really leaned into the death and carnage aspect [00:57:00] becoming more and more creative and destructive as the film progressed. Like was it strictly necessary to aim towards and blow up an entire floor of a densely inhabited building? I dunno. It was kind of hard to watch some times, it was pretty graphic. I did like that it took on a more serious tone though. And I think the reason that it's so hard to watch for me is more for the social implications. Like, when the film made it clear that vagrancy could carry a similar sentence to other more serious crimes. Mike: Right? Jessika: Which was really wild. Mike: Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like it did a lot more subtle world-building with moments like that, or when they're describing the Mega Block that they're investigating and it's noted that there's only a 3% employment rate. It's weird because it's such a violent movie and don't get me wrong, I think the action scenes are just incredible. They look great. But at the same time, it's a more [00:58:00] subtle movie in a lot of ways than the Stallone one was. Jessika: Yeah. Definitely it's scarier. Like the idea of it is more, it seems more real and in your face, and for me, it definitely put a spotlight on how scary policing can be to targeted groups. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And this might be an extreme example, but how extreme is it really? Mike: Yeah. And it's interesting because you and I talked about this before, this is a movie that is very, it's very binary with its morals. Like there's only the good guys and the bad guys. This isn't this, isn't one of those movies where you sit there and you watch it and are really given a lot of moral things to consider. There's not a lot of philosophy here, but it doesn't sit there and say that Dredd and the Judges themselves are in the right. It's basically showing that there is a force who is basically the gang that is running the apartment block that they are in, which is headed up by a fucking terrifying Lena Headey and A), [00:59:00] they really uglied her up. Which, I was actually really impressed. I didn't recognize her because this came out right after game of Thrones had just had its first season. I think maybe its second season had hit, but I mean what a stark contrast between her in the mama role and then Cersei Lannister. Jessika: Stark. I like what you did there. Mike: Hey, was totally intentional. Or that was totally, that was totally intentional. I totally did that on purpose. Jessika: Okay. Mike: Like I said, there is no wiggle room. They sit there and they basically say no, this woman is a monster, and she does need to be taken down. You know, to the movies credit, the judges, don't really mow down innocent bystanders, it's all the thing of, no, they're going up against bad guys who have guns and are trying to kill them. But at the same time, it does also acknowledge how they aren't completely in the right either. Like there's a scene where they take shelter in an apartment. And Olivia Thirlby's character reads the mind of this woman who they're basically holding up to give them shelter for a few minutes. [01:00:00] And she realizes that, oh, this woman's baby daddy is one of the gang members that they just killed a few minutes ago. Jessika: She herself had killed that guy. Mike: Yeah. And I appreciated that. There are those moments where it takes a more mature look at, maybe everything that's going on isn't great. And then there's that moment at the end where Anderson sits there and talks about how, when she lets the hacker character go, because she realizes that he is just as much of a victim as a lot of the other people in the block are, even though he's been aiding Ma Ma. Jessika: Yeah. And then I like how Dread tries to call her on it. She's like, I've made the judgment. He's a victim. Mike: Yeah. And I thought that was great. Also, that actor is the guy who played General Hux in the Star Wars movies that we got recently. Jessika: I thought I recognized him and I could not place him, and I was too lazy to go on IMDB. Mike: But yeah, thought it was a much more, it's weird to call that movie subtle, but I felt like there were a lot of nice little subtle moments in it. [01:01:00] And I really liked how A) Ma Ma was a genuinely frightening villain, especially because you never see her flying off the handle or being over the top or anything like that. She delivers everything with this really kind of scary, calm, in which we see in the first few minutes, when she tells her officer to skin, some guys who were selling drugs on her territory without her permission. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And then the order is given after they've been skinned, to be given hits of slow-mo, which is the drug throughout the movie that slows down perceptions of time. So they were thrown off the top story of this apartment block. And basically they have this long, awful, painful plummet into the courtyard below. Jessika: God, that's gotta be so terrifying. Mike: And that really set the tone for who we were dealing with, which I thought was incredibly effective. Jessika: I thought they did such a nice job on the cinematography on that, by the way, when they did those scenes with the slow-mo and they [01:02:00] had it kind of shimmery and they put you in the mindset of the person having used the slow-mo, and I thought that was such a good technique. Mike: So yeah, and the whole thing was that they released this movie in 3D. So, you can tell that those scenes were filmed specifically for 3D cinematography. Jessika: That makes so much sense. Mike: I actually saw this movie opening night in the theaters and A) I remember tweeting about it and saying that movie was way too good for the theater to be that empty on a Friday night. But I remember that was the first, and really that's the only time, I've ever enjoyed a movie in 3D because I felt the 3d actually added something as opposed to just being a cheap gimmick to ring an extra couple of bucks out of my wallet. Jessika: That's usually how I feel about it. Mike: Yeah. But I liked how Olivia Thirlby’s character Judge Anderson was actually way less of a damsel in distress than Diane Lane's character Judge Hersey. And then on top of that, a lot of the [01:03:00] superhero movies rely on that whole female heroes have to fight female villains trope that it always feels like they don't get to participate in the end boss battle. And I thought it was really cool how Anderson wound up using her powers to A) escape, her captors, B) actually rescue Dredd, and then C) really be a giant aid to him throughout the movie. She felt like a viable, real character as opposed to just kind of, window trim. Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. I was nodding vigorously when you were talking about that, because I am an absolute agreement. I was a little worried when she first got captured, cause I was like, oh, here we go, so fucking typical. But then when she was actually using her powers and she was getting out of the situation herself, it was like, okay, fine. You got this. You're fine. Mike: Yeah. On top of that, the intro to the movie we get is so tight and efficient. And aside from the intro where we get a chase scene, where we see slow-mo and effect, we see how brutal Dredd is himself. We also get [01:04:00] the intro to Anderson, where she's demonstrating her powers by basically reading the mind of Dredd from behind a two way mirror. And there's that great line about like, oh, well, you know, there's another Judge with you. He's male. I sense control and anger and then something, something more something. And then the judge cuts her off just like, that's enough, that's fine. And I'm like, cool. So we've got a really good summary of who Dredd himself is. Okay. We get it now. This is all we need. Jessika: Yeah. It was a really good narrative tool. I did like that. Mike: Yeah. And then, in the comics, Anderson actually won is a pretty big ally of dread himself. And she's also never romantic interest, but she winds up being key to defeat those monster movie versions of the Judges. And actually, it's been a little while since I read this, but if I remember right when she first confronts Judge Death, who is the leader of the Dark Judges, she winds up, trapping him inside her own mind because he's this psychic entity. And so I was really happy that they took a strong character and [01:05:00] kept her really strong. Jessika: It's good to hear that she also had a really strong role within the comics. Mike: And then the other thing is that I kind of liked how they had Dredd himself be a little bit more subtle. Like, Hey, we never haven't take off his helmet, which I thought was great. And I thought Karl urban, I mean, how did you feel about Karl Urban as Dredd compared to him? Jessika: I thought he was great. And I think I, it would've made less sense if he had taken off his helmet just as far as the character goes. And honestly, I think in this situation, there wasn't much room for him as a character to have his helmet off because they were pretty in a battle mode. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: The whole movie, truly, except for the introductory first few minutes. Mike: Yeah. And I liked the bit where, so Anderson loses her helmet pretty early on and Dredd actually calls her out on it. And he says, you're not wearing your helmet. And she goes, oh, well, the helmet interferes with my psychic abilities and you just go solo bullet and then that's it. That’s Jessika: Yup. Mike: I thought that was great. Jessika: Yup. He'll give her the advice he will give, but he's not going to [01:06:00] tell her to do it, which I thought was good. Mike: Yeah. I'm curious. We're going to get to this in a minute about like how it is through the 2021 line. But did you enjoy the movie? Jessika: I think for me, because I'm such an empath, it was a little bit too much innocent blood death. Mike: Okay. Jessika: Even just like, they didn't need to kill the vagrant, it, that was a very like, oh, the gates closed. And the Vagrant just happened to be sitting there and he got squashed and they both kind of looked at it like, well, guess we don't have to deal with that. And I was like, well, fucking hell guys, come on. Mike: Yeah. And I mean, at the same time, from my perspective, and I understand where you were coming from with this, but from my perspective, it was kind of the embodiment of that weird absurdist, gallows humor that is often present in the comics. So. Jessika: Yeah. I can see that. Mike: But yeah, so, like I said, this is one of my favorite movies. I've got an original poster for it that a friend got from me at Comicon. I have the special edition and Blu-ray, I own the illustrated script, [01:07:00] which has tons of concept art and storyboards by Jacques, who is this really big name in British comics. And the storyboards they actually have in the book he did as comic pages. And they very closely mirrored that shot for shot. It's really cool, but it's really uncomfortable. Even for me to watch after the last couple of years where the US has started to seriously grapple with the reality of police brutality in our system. I don't know, I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of days, because I realized I used to watch Dredd pretty regularly. I'd throw it on in the background or if I was at the gym and I wanted to watch something while I was on one of the machines, I would throw it onto my iPad. And I didn't realize how I hadn't watched it for at least two years until I put it back on ahead of this episode. Jessika: Your timing makes sense. Mike: Yeah. I dunno, I'm at the point where I kind of associate this with Robocop, which I also feel is a really excellent movie in a lot of ways, but so much of the stuff that's in it is [01:08:00] just heinously uncomfortable now. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. I think for me it was hard just because watching the injustice of the last few years, especially, I mean, the fact that it's so media centered that we're able to see it. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: That's bringing it to the spotlight. It's always been happening. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: We're just able to see it. Now we can record it. Mike: Exactly and we're also at the point where, watching these movies, reading these comics, I'm looking back on us and I'm like, guys, this was all supposed to be satire. What happened? How are we actually living in these nightmare dystopian scenarios? You know, with Dredd we’ve got this society that's barely clinging to the last vestiges of civilization and the legal system is overwhelmed and then it starts and ends with snap judgements by street cops. And there's no accountability for them. And years ago watching this, this seemed completely impossible [01:09:00] coming from our privileged positions, didn't seem remotely feasible. And yet here we are, in 2021, and we realized not only was it feasible, it was already happening. We just, we weren't aware of it because we got lucky. Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. Super lucky that we didn't have to grow up having to deal with this on a personal level, but, it was really hard to watch for that reason because instead of seeing it as satire, I was seeing the reality of the situation, maybe a more extreme version of that out in the open, but not really. I mean, we have, cops who have, qualified immunity and get away with stuff all the time. You know, you can hashtag not all cops, but we are in a broken system Mike: Exactly. Jessika: And there are no good cops in a broken system. Mike: Yup. I don't know exactly how to wrap up this discussion about Dredd because it's very hard to watch it these days and compartmentalize it away from what's going on in our [01:10:00] system. But, I'll give you the cliff notes version of this movie and how it did, and then we'll move on from there, I guess. So Dredd was a critical success. It did really well with people who watched it by and large. When this came out in 2012, there wasn't really a lot like it for American audiences, but it was also marketed really poorly, and so people didn't really know it existed. A lot of people when I talked to him about how good it was, they said, oh yeah, that looks really cool. I want to see that when it comes out and I'm like, it came out like two weeks ago and it's already out of the theaters. Jessika: Oop Mike: Yeah. It may be broke even at the box office worldwide. The budget's a little bit, fluid with how much it cost to make, but it was a box office failure. It did really well on home media though. So it wound up being one of the top selling DVDs for awhile and streaming. It was really popular. And, a fan movement started up to get sequel, which the producer Adi Shankar has talked about. It's probably not going to happen unless they can get. A couple of different scenarios. One of them that I actually liked was Adi Shankar saying, [01:11:00] well, you know, if you can get an actor to come in, who can revitalize the franchise, like, I don't know. Maybe if we can get the Rock, and I was like, well, he does, he does revitalize franchises. We're looking at you Fast and Furious. Jessika: Yeah, no true. Future friend of the pod, Dwayne Johnson, question mark? I just think everyone's a future front of the pod. Mike: I. Jessika: You’re all future friends. Mike: I mean, the Rock is also apparently just everybody's friend when he meets them. He's apparently just one of the most genuinely likable people. Jessika: Apparently he really likes D&D. I want to have a conversation about D&D with him. Mike: I didn't know that I knew VIN diesel was really into it, but I didn't know the Rock was that's cool. You know, it's funny. I actually interviewed VIN diesel and I broke the news that he’s a D&D fan. Jessika: Did you? Mike: Yeah, when I was working at Ars Technica, I wound up interviewing him about, he was doing a video game based on Riddick. And I was chatting, it was like a group call, but at one point, the question I had was basically, why do [01:12:00] you keep coming back to this character and playing him? Because this is like your, I think it was like, at that point, the fifth time he was playing the character and he gave me this very long thoughtful answer, talking about the character of Riddick and why he likes him. And then he goes on and he's like, you know, we're able to have these crazy cool worlds now in movies, but we didn't get that. I was a kid in the Bronx in the seventies. We didn't have the worlds that you get in video games now. And he's like, I grew up playing pong. And so we all play D&D I was like, that's awesome. Tell me more. Yeah. Jessika: OThat’s dope. Ooh. Mike: So after Dredd didn't make back its money at the box office 2000 AD, who is now owned by a video game publisher called Rebellion, published a one issue sequel. I remember buying it at the time. It was fine. it's fine. It's just, it's nothing special. It's nothing really memorable about Dredd. It felt like a very generic action comic. Because of the fan movement, there was supposedly going to be a Mega City One TV show, I think at Amazon Prime for Prime Video. And the [01:13:00] last I heard was that it was still in development in 2018. Karl Urban had said that he was going to be in it after the last couple of years, I'd be shocked if it was going to happen. Jessika: They would have to have some sort of a wild ass spin for it to be even remotely acceptable right now. Mike: Yeah. And then I couldn't find the article that was talking about this, but I remember at one point reading something about how they were hoping that this movie was going to be a success. And then they were going to bring in the dark judges and Adi Shankar was producing a bunch of, kind of cool web series for awhile. And there was actually a Judge Death web series , I think it was called Diary of a Super Fiend, which was really cool. The people behind it clearly had some ideas of where they wanted to take it if it wound up working, but it didn't. And at this point I almost feel like we're kind of in another Highlander scenario, where maybe, uh, maybe the fact that this movie failed and we got something that, for the right audiences was really good. [01:14:00] Maybe that's just where we need to leave it. Jessika: Yeah, maybe there can only be one. Mike: We are now at the end of our episode, which means it's time for Brain Wrinkles. So we want to talk about that one thing. That's comics or Comics related that we just can't get out of our heads at the moment. Why don't you kick us off? I've been, I've been talking for a bit. Jessika: No. Well, mine's happy Pride month. Mine's Pride related. Mike: Hmm. Jessika: So, while we've been seeing a lot of corporate cow-towing to the LGBTQ plus community, mostly by just slapping, rainbows on everything they sell, probably marking them up too. I dunno. I'm not buying it. Mike: It’s a rainbow tax. Jessika: However, yeah, exactly, rainbow tax. I already have the pink tax. I don't need to get tax for this, too, come on. However, not all corporations, hashtag not all corporations [01:15:00] have gotten on board with being kind to the alphabet mafia, even though it's our celebratory month. Mike: We're like, we're like brides on the wedding day. It's our month. It's our special month! Jessika: this is, this is my month. Could you not be a dick to me on this? Just this one month? No, that's we don't get that. No, it's not a thing. So, Warner brothers games made Injustice 2 Mobile, which is a Batman-centered game that's supposed to take place after the fall of Superman's regime. That being said, specifically for Pride month, the challenge that they decided to land on was legitimately teaming up as a gaming community to take down or beat up Poison Ivy as many times as they could. So I'm sure you understand how inappropriate is to team up to beat a canonically LGBT character [01:16:00] on this the month of Pride. It's. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, you also team up with Harley Quinn, you know, one of her known girlfriends to beat her up Mike: Hmm. Jessika: It's beyond tone deaf. And at this point they have issued an apology and taken down their tweets bragging about how many times she had already been beat up. But yikes hikes it's real rough. Mike: Yeah. I remember when that story broke and a bunch of us that either were in the video game community. Like, those of us that have worked in the industry or, you know, were still working in the history. A bunch of us were privately talking about that and how really bad it was. Jessika: Yeah. It's oof. It is rough. Mike: Well. Jessika: What about you? Mike: It's actually kind of related to this, but a little bit different too. Um Hmm. It's also something dealing with how DC/Warner bros. Often doesn't [01:17:00] seem to read the room. There was a recent bit of news this week, about how in the Harley Quinn TV show’s upcoming third season, there was going to be a scene where Batman is seen going down on Catwoman and DC wound up nixing this real fucking hard, Harley Quinn co-creator Justin Halpern was giving this interview to Variety. And he said, it's incredibly gratifying and free to be using characters that are considered villains because you just have so much more leeway. A perfect example of this is in the third season of Harley, when we had a moment where Batman was going down on Catwoman and DC was like, you can't do that. You absolutely cannot do that. They're like heroes don't do that. So we said, are you saying heroes are just selfish lovers? Which A) I love that response. I think that's good. Jessika: Same. Mike: And they were like, no, it's just that we sell consumer toys for heroes. It's hard to sell a toy if Batman is also going down on someone. I mean, I just, I can't, [01:18:00] man, Jessika: It's not like kids are watching this. Mike: No. Jessika: It's not a kid's cartoon. Mike: Yeah. And I mean, there was a comic from 2011 where Batman and Catwoman literally have sex on the floor and they're still fully costumed and it's this, like, it's not like a subtle moment. It's a full page panel at the end of an issue. And I'm trying to understand how that's considered more heroic than going down on your fiancee. Like, which, I think they’re fiancé's, I don't know. At some point they were supposed to get married. I don't actually read a lot of Batman, so I'm a little bit behind, but you think Batman's picked up that many skills and he's a selfish lover? Come on, come on. Like, I dunno. Jessika: I mean, here's the thing. He does have a lot of money. Mike: He does. Jessika: So he’s going to get away with a lot more. Mike: And he does have those abs. Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. I think it [01:19:00] tracks, my dude. I hate it, but but I also don't like Bruce Wayne as a person. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Cause he’s just so like, everything is about me. I fight crime because I lost my parents. Yeah. Okay. So did Anastasia, but you don't see her trying to blow up Russia, like calm the fuck down. I'm talking about the children's film, obviously. Mike: Nah, she, instead of going on a massive quest for vengeance, she just, you know, hung out with plucky animal characters and took down a zombie monk. Jessika: Yeah. Do that. Mike: Yeah. Do that. Be better, Bruce. Jessika: Be historically inaccurate and do better. Mike: Alright. On that note, we'll be back in two weeks where we will talk about something new and exciting, although we have no idea what and, until then we'll see you in the stacks. Jessika: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us; text [01:20:00] transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson. It was written by Mike Thompson, yours truly and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan MacDonald, and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Meanwhile, our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by cut_thistles on Instagram. Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is tencenttakes, Jessika, moi, is jessikawitha and Jessika is spelled with a K, and Mike is vansau, [01:21:00] V A N S A U. Mike: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen. Jessika: Stay safe out there. Mike: And support your local comic shop.

March Movie Madness Part 2 (of 3). Welp. It's here. We watched it. Is it better than the theatrical version? How did it get here? Did we like it? Tune in for all these answers, plus a lot of swearing.

Also! Come back in a couple of weeks for our final "March" movie episode! 

Have questions/comments/concerns? Shoot us an email: tencenttakes@gmail.com

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Mike: Ancient Lamentation is my new favorite type of music.

Jessika: Warning: this is a spoiler full episode, discussing Zack Snyder's newly released Cut of DC's Justice League. If you haven't already seen this film and don't want to be completely spoiled, we'd recommend you check that out before joining us. You can't say we didn't warn you.

Mike: Hello. This is Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we ruin your favorite fandoms one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson. I am joined by my cohost of chaos, Jessika Frazier.

Jessika: Hey, Mike.

No I'm. That was hysterical. I did. Yeah, I know. Did you see my face? I was like, okay, don't breathe in too heavily. You're being recorded. 

Mike: Yeah. Everything is forever on a podcast. If you're joining us for the first time, the purpose of this podcast is to talk about comic books and the things that connect to them in ways that are fun and informative.

We want to look at the coolest, weirdest and silliest moments as well as examine how they are woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we are going to continue our run of March movie madness and talk about. Dun dun duh, the Snyder Cut, which just dropped a few days ago. Before we get to that topic though: Jess, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched recently? 

Jessika: I grabbed some original print used comics from an absolute time capsule of an estate sale. I went to recently -masked of course- I hope everyone is staying safe. We are still mid- pandemic. So I didn't even look at the comics prior to purchasing them.

But ooh boy, I found some treasures and we will talk about a couple of them later in a, probably a couple of upcoming episodes. But the one I looked through this week was an issue of Archie and friends from 1975. And this one just has this awful one- pager that it took me a really long time to get what it meant.

I'm going to send it to you. 

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: And then I'll tell you why I didn't understand it at first. 

Mike: W- what? 

Jessika: That was my reaction. 

Mike: Huh? Okay. Should I describe this? 

Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. Please. I've given you the worst thing. 

Mike: This is a, a one-page comic call called little jinx, you know, L I apostrophe L jinx with an X and then "Weak End" as in W-E-A-K as in not strong end.

So it's this little blonde girl in floral print bell-bottoms running up to her dad who is apparently painting a cupboard or something in the garage. And she says, "daddy, it hurts when I swallow." And the dad -who I guess is a relative of Archie based on his hair color and style- he says, come on little jinx," we'll get, we'll let our doctor look at it."

And she goes, "er... Do I have to?" "Don't you want him to fix up your sore throat? "And then she says, "sure. But when he fixes this end" and she points at her throat, she then is like gesturing at her butt in the final panel. And she goes, "I have trouble with my other end when I sit down," which raises so many questions.

Why namely, why would you take your child to the proctologist for a sore throat? 

Jessika: I don't think that, yeah, well that too. I, you know, and I was trying to figure out, okay, wait, first of all, I'll get around. What's funny. It's probably not funny to us in this modern day. Um, and then I realized, Oh, wait, it's casual child abuse abuse.

So it's it really, isn't funny because she's saying basically when she's able to talk, she says things that displeases her dad, which causes her. Uh, to be physically abused by him. So I just, you know, this has caused me to think, wow, I keep getting really upset at these old comics. 

Mike: I interpreted it in a way that I think is arguably worse, which is that when she goes to the doctors, she gets the rectal thermometer, which is, I think still a thing back then.

Jessika: Yeah. I think you're probably right about that too. So I don't know if it's both. 

Mike: I don't, I don't know. I, it could, it could be either. It could be both. 

Jessika: It's a million times awful either way. 

Mike: It's terrible. I hate it. Thanks. I hate it. 

Jessika: You're welcome. I had to see it. So, so did you,

God, what about you? 

Mike: Mine's a little less traumatizing. A couple of months ago. A friend of mine from college reached out to me.  He revealed that he was getting rid of stuff that free up some storage space. And so he sent me down a couple of boxes of comics from, you know, the eighties and early nineties.

So I've been going through those and I came across the miniseries from Marvel GI Joe and Transformers. So it is a cross up of two of my favorite franchises. And it has the two most popular characters on the cover. It's got Snake Eyes and Bumblebee and the cover itself is kind of traumatizing. It's it's got Bumblebee getting blown apart by the GI Joes.

So yeah, it's very much an eighties comic. It's a lot of fun though. And it feels like I'm a little kid again, mashing up my favorite action figures to have an adventure with my friends on a Saturday afternoon. So yeah. 

Jessika: Well that's cool. Everybody wanted to see Transformers: Soldiers in Disguise, so... 

Mike: Oh, that's so good.

All right. You ready to do this? 

Jessika: Oh, let's turn this page. Flip a table while we're at it. 

Mike: Before we actually start talking about the Snyder Cut. I think we need to take a couple of minutes and talk about how we actually got to this point. Let's start at the beginning. How familiar with Zack Snyder and by extension his work in the DC universe are you? 

Jessika: I mean peripherally, honestly, every time I hear "oh yeah, that was a Zack Snyder," I'm like, Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't, I don't know, like I wouldn't be able to point to any of his movies and be like, "those are classic Snyder, man." 

Mike: Okay. Zack Snyder is pretty much synonymous with the DC Extended Universe at this point. And it's largely because he directed the first two movies, Man of Steel and Batman Versus Superman.

Before that he was originally doing music videos and commercials. He wound up hitting a home run when he directed the 2004 version of Dawn of the Dead, which is still I think his best- reviewed movie. You know, and he's done adaptations of things like Watchman and 300, which is again, another, it was another big success for him.

And then he did Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. And those movies are pretty divisive. And in fact, I would say that they're incredibly divisive. Everyone agrees that they're good looking movies. They're really beautiful. They're, you know, they're gorgeously shot, they've got amazing special effects, but they're really divisive amongst the fans and have you seen these?

Jessika:  I've seen some of them and, I would... I'm gonna admit. I am more of a Marvel fan girl than I am DC for some, for some reasons, not that I'm opposed to seeing DC films, but I don't see them with as much enthusiasm. Let's just call it as I do Marvel films typically. 

Mike: So which, which of the DC extended universe have you seen? 

Jessika: I just recently had a whole, I've gone down a rabbit hole. I, so I've... 

Mike: Yeah. You, you did your homework out of this. I think you've seen more than I have at this point.

Jessika:  I recently watched Aquaman just because my brother and I wanted to watch it and I was like, okay, present this movie anyway. So might as well check it out. Mamoa is up. Then I watched... I was thinking, Oh, I'll just jump into Justice League.

But then I realized I hadn't seen Batman Versus Superman, and I didn't realize how those correlated, like I didn't realize it was like, it was a one into another situation. And so my brother and I started watching it, I was looking down at my phone and the newspaper with "Superman is dead!" floats across the screen.

And my brother turns it off and he's like, "wait a second. Have you seen...?" 

And I was like, "shit, here we go." Because I'd been avoiding seeing that film just for the reason that I had been told "maybe, maybe skip that one" by multiple parties, which in the end I would have to agree except for the plot line tie-ins. 

Mike: Right. What was your big complaint about Batman Versus Superman? 

Jessika: The whole thing was just ridiculous. Honestly, the plot for me, it just, I had moral issues with a lot of the characters to start off with. Ben Affleck. I love Ben Affleck as Batman. Ben Affleck is a great Batman. I actually really like him as Batman.

I do not like the writing choice to make him branding people. 

Mike: Oh, that was a whole thing. That was fucking gross. 

Jessika: I did not, I did not enjoy that at all. And having conversations with people, it frustrated me even more because they didn't see some of the people I was talking to. You didn't see any moral issues with that because quote unquote, they were bad guys anyway, kind of a vibe.

And I was like, no, no, no, no, we don't let one person decide who's going to be the arresting officer, the judge, the jury and the execution, or that's, that's not the way this works. And there's a lot of implications for, you know, innocent. People being killed. And I mean, it, it, it is a really good allegory for our own justice system. Like a really intense version of it. 

It bothered me so much that it wasn't done in a way that made people more negatively reactive to it, I would say. 

Mike: The good news is that I think more people didn't like it, than you would assume based on the internet. I mean, first of all, like so many people that I know have huge problems with the DC Extended Universe and primarily to tone set by both Man of Steel and Batman Versus Superman, because they're so grim. In Man of Steel, you have a fairly joyless story, and then at the very end, you have this huge battle with all the Kryptonians that winds up leveling Metropolis. And it's, you know, the result is thousands of people die and then Batman Versus Superman kind of tries to correct for that, where it's like, "Oh, they're trying to hold Superman accountable." In turn Batman is -just in the few hours that we watch him- a mass murderer.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: And then to your point, not only is he  murdering people, but also he will sit there and survivors of like the criminals that he takes down, he will then brand them with like a heated up batarang or something. It's been a while since I saw it, I just remember the shape of the batarang on the skin.

And then when they go to jail, they get like beaten to death for no explained reason. The label that started circulating as soon after this came out was  the DC Murderverse. It came from a really funny article that was written as a spoiler FAQ for io9 by Rob Bricken. And he founded the blog topless robot and then he was an editor for, for io9 for awhile. And it is both one of the funniest things that you will ever read and also one of the most damning. And one of the best, one of the best lines in it is "welcome to the DC Murderverse. Hope you survive." And then in parentheses: "you won't, Batman will murder you."

But I mean, there's another scene in it where, you know, you see Batman drive the Batmobile up I think, uh, the back of a truck. And the bumper is within an inch of a dude's head and then it cuts away. But it is very heavily implied that his head did a very realistic imitation of an overripe pumpkin getting smashed with a baseball bat. And so a lot of people have massive problems with Zack Snyder, taking a fairly brutal nihilistic approach with the fandoms.

I'm not going to lie. I'm one of those people. I spent a long time thinking that he just didn't understand these characters and we'll come back to that later on. Batman Versus Superman wound up causing a pretty big course correction and Warner Brothers acknowledged that it was problematic.  I think they would have written it off.

It had a massive opening, like I think it was the top. It was the number nine grossing film of the year or something like that. But what happened was, if you look at the actual box office data, it also featured the most extreme drop-off I think in film history at the time of the Friday to Sunday box office, like it was very front-loaded.

It took in a heinous amount of money on Friday. And by that Sunday word of mouth that started to get around. And so it was just dropping off fast and it was a movie that, that did really well at the box office, when you stop and think about it. I think it, I think it earned around $350-400 million, but it was all front-loaded. People weren't going back to see it.

And the other thing is that -based on the elements that we've discussed- people with kids weren't going to see it. They weren't taking their kids.

Jessika: Yeah, you're removing an entire demographic. And not only that, a lot of the times parents don't get the opportunity to go to the movie theater to see these things.

So if they're not going as a family, you're also losing those parents as, as part of that demographic. In my opinion, I don't know if that's actually factually based. 

Mike: Well, I mean, I don't think you're wrong. Speaking of someone who has step-kids and the other thing is that so many kids with little parents will take their kids to a movie because we just want fucking five minutes of silence and quiet and calm, and we will take those children -depending on what's available- we will take those kids to go see the same movie multiple times. I mean, my mom took me to see the original Ninja turtles movie four times in the theater. And I've since talked to her, uh, having watched it since then it acknowledging it's not nearly as good as I remember it. And I remember when I talked to her about it and I apologized for making her take me to see it so many times the last time she was like, "meh, it was fine. I just sat in the lobby and read a book and wait until you came out. I wasn't worried."

Jessika: That's amazing. Can you imagine parents these days doing that? 

Mike: Oh my God. I don't want to. CPS would be called on your ass so fast. 

Jessika: Yeah, no, it was a different, different time. I sound so old. 

Mike: Yeah. The seventies and eighties were that, that golden age of latchkey kids. 

Batman Versus Superman came out, it didn't make nearly as much money as they wanted it to. I think it wound up at the, at the worldwide box office making about $200 million less than they expected it to. Meanwhile, Suicide Squad came out and actually overperformed, they sorta evened out. Wonder Woman came out between all these and Justice League, and performed gangbusters business.

And then Snyder started to shoot Justice League. So he's shot the principal footage for Justice League and then in March, 2017, he very understandably stepped away from the movie because his daughter committed suicide. 

Jessika: Oh, I wasn't aware of this. 

Mike:  Yeah. It's one of those things where you have to acknowledge that this happened because the man suffered a horrifying personal tragedy that you would not wish on anyone.

And after this happened, Joss Whedon stepped in Zack Snyder apparently actually asked for Joss Whedon to take over. DC and Warner Brothers brought him in. And it was really big news at the time, because this was the guy who had singlehandedly, you know, in fan's eyes unified, the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

He had created the Avengers movie. He had then done Age of Ultron, which wasn't as well received, but he was really popular at this point. And people were really enthusiastic about this. In fact, some people were so enthusiastic that it was actually really gross, how a lot of outlets treated it. So a lot of the more fan- oriented websites and outlets were treating this with, with headlines like Zack Snyder is out shall sweeten is in, and they were really trying to frame it as Oh, "DC fired Zack Snyder and brought in Joss Whedon to fix Justice League," which wasn't the case.

It was absolutely vital the way that some of those outlets played it, none of the major ones did. In fact, I was doing a search on the web and it's really hard to find those sites with those stories because they got so much backlash that a lot of them got taken down. But I remember it circulating on Twitter, on film Twitter and comics Twitter at the time that it all happened.

And it was really gross not to go into too much detail, but it's since been revealed that Whedon fostered a pretty toxic environment on set as did DC's chief creative officer, Geoff Johns. Cyborg actor, Ray Fisher, was really outspoken about this and wound up potentially nuking his film career. This was his first big role and it took a lot of guts for him to come out and not only make the public accusations, but then stick with them for a long period of time. And it wound up creating an investigation which ultimately left him pretty vindicated. Joss, I think has wound up if I remember right, he wound up losing a TV deal with Warner Brothers, you know, and now he is kind of persona non grata. Eight months after he stepped in his version of the movie came out and it was really underwhelming, both in terms of reviews and in box office take, in fact it was the lowest box office take out of the entire DC Extended Universe.

Yeah. As opposed to the Avengers, which I think set box office records, I think it was the top grossing domestic movie or  the second top second highest. It was a pretty notable fall from grace. And we'll talk about that later on, especially our issues with the film, but a section of Snyder's fans immediately started to latch onto the idea that there was a director's cut out there. And it was something true to his vision as the grand culmination of the DCEU and that it was just sitting on a shelf somewhere. And Warner Brothers was screwing over their favorite director by not letting his fans experience his vision because they got scared of how brilliant it was or, or something.

Um, side note that didn't exist. It wasn't real. Snyder has since acknowledged to Vanity Fair that he had the footage for a director's cut on his laptop, but it didn't have visual effects. It didn't have music, it wasn't refined at all. It was just something that he would show to friends when they were over at his house.

So this group of outraged fans started the hashtag "release the Snyder Cut," and it began spreading all over the internet and picking up steam. And eventually even Snyder and the movie star started sharing the hashtag. But the movement was really problematic because of how toxic the campaigns. A lot us champions were Joanna Robinson wrote a really excellent article for Vanity Fair about the campaign noting, and this is a direct quote, "plenty of earnest pleas came with the hashtag, but also vitriol was extreme even for Twitter, including harassment campaigns targeted at critics, HBO Max, Warner Brothers, and its employees. Former DCEU film chief Geoff Johns left the platform entirely after receiving endless Twitter attacks and director James Gunn, who was hired to write and direct a Suicide Squad Sequel for the studio discovered that his new gig came with at least one death threat from a user with a Batman avatar. 

Jessika: Not a good luck.

Mike: No, the movement from my end, as someone who has no connection to the film industry reminded me a lot of Gamergate, which I had a lot more connection to.

Because at the time I was working in the video games industry and I'd come over from the side of being a tech slash games journalist. And it was really worrisome to watch this whole Snyder Cut thing go on, because I had seen a lot of my friends, especially that were women from the parts of the industry that I was involved with, really awfully treated and it really made my stomach turn.

And it was really upsetting because at the time my company that I was working for basically told us not to talk about Gamergate. And it was really upsetting. So there was this weird Venn diagram kind of miasma between the two groups and it continued to drive home how toxic nerd culture can be. 

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: Anyway. 

Jessika: That's why we love all the nerds here. Just however you want to be a nerd, but just don't be mean to others. That's the whole thing you don't need to, you don't need to be mean in your nerdom. It doesn't have to be a contest either. Like you can just like things. 

Mike: Yeah. It makes me really sad to watch these really toxic elements, shout the loudest and thus they get the most attention.

And most of the nerds that I know are lovely, wonderful people. It just bums me out. And that is an understatement in an extreme regard, but it's just so upsetting to watch this continue to happen over and over again. And it's been really picking up steam over the past decade. We're going to fast forward now to February of last year.

So Warner brothers has just announced that they're going to commit another $70 million to letting Zack Snyder complete his vision. And then he's going to release the Snyder Cut exclusively on HBO max, which I can't remember at the time, if it was actually live or not. I think they had three different versions of streaming HBO platforms and then they also had the DC universe. And there was also the AT&T acquisition of Warner Brothers going on at the time. So they were trying to sit there and centralize all these different fandoms into one platform that would pay 15 bucks a month or whatever. So they need exclusive content. And now here we are a year later and the Snyder Cut dropped about four days ago and we both watched it.

What was your reaction first of all, to Joss Whedon's version, because I remember you, you watched that recently, right? 

Jessika: So not only did I, I love torturing myself. Not only did I watch it the day before I watched the Snyder Cut. I also watched it the day after I watched the Snyder Cut. And I'll tell you why as I was watching the Snyder Cut.

 (You lost a bet?) 

No. Yeah, I know. Right. It feels like it, um, to myself, maybe I couldn't, I really had to identify. What exactly had been removed from that other, you know, to make the Whedon, the Whedon version of it. 

Mike: And I mean, a lot seemed to have been removed. 

Jessika: How did it get this diluted? 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean like the, the Joss Whedon version was two hours long, you know, as opposed to the four hours that we get with a Snyder Cut.

Jessika: Yes. I would say that when I first watched it, it was confusing. It took a while for the narrative to tell the story of the mother boxes. And even then the explanation felt really flimsy. The new Justice League characters felt like they were just sandwiched into the movie to push the plot narrative. And we didn't really get the chance to get invested in their well-being enough to care what ultimately happened to them.

In my opinion, we just didn't know enough about them. I mean, I don't kind of, didn't give a fuck about Cyborg at the end of the movie. I'm not going to lie. We didn't get enough of him. And he just seemed like this stoic non- character. He just seemed like a filler. Yeah. He was a red shirt. 

Mike: Yeah. Except he didn't die. 

Jessika: Except he didn't die, but he was, he could have died and nobody would have cared.

Mike: No, no one would have. And I mean, it's funny that you bring up the thing about the mother boxes because when Justice League came out, I was actually really grumpy about the mother boxes because I felt it was again a colossal misunderstanding of a very important piece of DC cannon lore. And I remember I actually wound up texting with Sarah.

We'd only been dating for about a month by that point. And I had this whole rant. Talking about how mother boxes are generally these neutral, good things from the comics, from the bonkers, Jack Kirby, New Gods/Fourth World continuity that he created, which is where Darkseid comes from and all that. And largely they're these neutral to kind of neutral, good benevolent self-aware supercomputers that can perform all these tasks.

They open up boom tubes, which are how the New Gods get around the universe and everything. They also can repair and heal, and they are defined by this definition of love, where when their user dies, they actually commit suicide. It felt kind of like peak Zack Snyder, where he took a thing that was known in DC comics as a relatively benign creation, defined by love and turning it into a weapon of mass destruction.

Jessika: Wow. 

Mike: They made it better in this version. I felt. 

Jessika: Agreed. 

Mike: But I was so angry about it. And I remember texting Sarah about this whole thing. And then I went and saw the movie. I was just so grumpy about that one element for the longest time. I, I have not seen it since it came out in theaters, you know, and at the time it was really remarkable that it looked as cheap as it did considering it had a $300 million budget, which means that now Justice League has cost AT&T 400 million or Warner brothers 400 million to make.

I don't... film finances are very weird, but, but ultimately we are looking at a movie that costs 400, almost $400 million to make, not including any of the marketing costs, which are just astronomical at this point. You know, and I, I described it back then as a solid five out of 10 And that rating's kind of slipped over time.

Like, I I'd say it's a three or a four now. There there's just, there's so much stuff that didn't make sense. And none of the new characters really felt like characters. Like you said, that said, I will say it looks even a weaker now when you compare it to what just came out and, you know, I, I have my own quibbles about that version of the movie, but it's certainly a lot better than what was released in 2017.

Jessika: Yeah. Doing a side-by-side I'm going to have to agree with you on that too. 

Mike: Moving into my reactions to the Snyder Cut. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised overall. I really didn't go in expecting much, but this was a much more coherent film that took the time to develop its characters and felt... not a lot, but a bit more faithful to canonical DC lore.

Like I told you about the mother boxes, I thought that was a pretty vast misunderstanding. But then in this one, there's the line where Cyborg. It says that they're changed engines. They don't really perceive good or evil. They're all about changing things and it's not great, but I didn't have a problem with that as a comic book fan, that said a pretty big problem with how Snyder's movies are just so violent and Justice League really continued that trend.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: I mean, at the end of the day, these are comic book movies and they have a ton of merchandise marketed towards kids, but none of them are things that I would want to take my kids to that said some of the other DC extended universe, I would totally take the kids to go see, I I've shown my stepson. Shizam it's one of his favorite movies.

We've let him watch Wonder Woman. Which you know, you and I have discussed it. It's got its own issues, but it's still a pretty kid friendly movie as opposed to Superman recreating 9/11 on his own or, or Batman terrorizing an entire city for two decades. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Also like, can we talk about how Batman outfits, all of his vehicles with guns, which is just fucking weird.

Jessika: That is a very strange choice. 

Mike: It continued in this, like we saw Wonder Woman, literally murdering terrorists. I'm still kind of floored at how lazy that scene was, where they're just like, Oh, we don't have any goals to this. These terrorists move into a, I guess, a government building or something like that.

I don't know where it was. It was somewhere in there. 

Jessika: Not very well explained. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And then when she sits there and tries to interrogate them with her lasso it's, "we don't have goals. We're just extremists who..." something about resetting Europe back to the middle ages and it's not well explained.

And then she just. Drops down and goes completely ham on all of these dudes. And it is not subtle the whole, like she, you see her kick a dude in the wall and there is a very vivid red stain on the wall behind him afterwards. And it's literally in front of a group of school girls. 

Jessika: That's exactly it. And I, I feel like with this scene, one of the things that I preferred in this cit over the Whedon version is that at least at the end, she was trying to calm everybody down and they showed that piece of it.

That kind of more human piece of you expect Diana to do, but that was completely removed from the first version, that theatrical version of it. 

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. And the theatrical version was also going for that PG- 13 rating so that they could be as marketable as possible. And, you know, I guess Diana showcasing her kindness was just deemed something that could hit the chopping room floor in order to get that much more time back. And then they could squeeze in one more showing of the film in the theater for the day. But I mean, this was a recurring theme. Like Superman comes back and then he tries to murder Batman with his heat vision.

That was something that wasn't in the, in the Joss Whedon version, but he straight up tries to murder Batman. And as he's doing so the police and the national guard that are there that are trying to contain the situation, get caught in the crossfire and would have straight up died if not for the other members of the League.

And then also, you know, Steppenwolf keeps on popping up and going bonkers with his ax and just lopping people in half right and left. Like that scene where he teleports into Atlanta's you see multiple people bisected with that act? 

Jessika: Yeah. It's really, really graphic. 

Mike: How did you feel about all the exposition? Cause there was a lot of it. 

Jessika: It was too much. I mean, I think back to your point about over-correcting this was an overcorrection, you know, we, yeah, we needed a little bit more. We needed slightly more, but it's like, please sir, can I get s'more? And they threw the whole bucket on us and that's not what we asked for.

You know, I, I don't know. Maybe some people asked for that. I didn't necessarily need that in my life. It just was such an overabundance of, "Oh, it's this person to tell you what's happening right this second and what's going on." And uh, it's just, ugh. 

Mike: It was a fire hose. There wasn't even a bucket. 

Jessika: Yeah, I agree.

Mike: And I mean, like that was the flip side of the plot being a lot more coherent, but so much of it came in the form of exposition. Like that whole giant battle scene with Apokolips was a lot of fun, but we didn't need constant narration from Diana. Explaining everything that was happening. And then on top of that, the placement of it was so random where she just shows up and Bruce Wayne is working on his plane thing and then she's like, "Oh, and then this happened."

And then it's this whole scene that feels incredibly out of place. I don't understand why they didn't pull a Lord of the Rings and just put this all at the beginning. 

Jessika: Yeah. Agreed, agreed. It would've made a lot more sense at that point to, you know, bringing it back to if you're trying to make it more coherent.

Mike: I mean, this is the way that I felt, but I like to be taken on a narrative ride and we never got that this time around, we were just shown a lot of what happened and then these omniscient narrators were explaining it to us. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree with that. 

Mike: The other thing is that you mentioned that like these new characters were really kind of sandwiched in and the Joss Whedon version.

And in this one, they got a lot more screen time and development time. How did you feel about the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg and what the movie did with them this time around as opposed to last time?

Jessika: So what I wanted out of this, if you're going to keep it in this direction, I think that if you were going to have so many new characters, yes, you absolutely have to explain where they come from, especially for folks who aren't familiar with the DC universe and comics or other, you know, other forms. That being said, I really wish they had done this in a mini series where they could have really focused on "this is what happened with Victor in Cyborg's perspective," and maybe told a portion of the story, or, you know, did you see House on Haunted Hill or Haunting of Hill house?

That's what it was. Each 

Mike: Yeah.... The Netflix series, right? Yeah. That was really good. 

Jessika: And what I liked about that, and I really think they could have done a really good job of doing it this way is each episode they layered in new person's perspective that told you just a little bit more of the story. I feel like this plot line had all of the makings of that and it would have been really cool to see it build up.

And I feel like you could have gained a lot of really good fan base excitement around, okay, we're going to show you episode one and then you get a week to talk about it. And then we're going to show you episode two, and then you get a week to talk about it. And I think in the same way that Wandavision had such good presence and such good reaction from the fan base, I feel like in a way there's the potential that there could have been the same thing that being said.

When I think of. DC TV shows. I think of the CW, which is not necessarily a good correlation, you know, alternatively, I don't know that I would have necessarily had full faith in the making a TV show because of what they have produced in TV shows in the past, unless you were to make it... I think if you would put Snyder's name on it regardless, you probably could have amplified it to a place where it needed to be, to kind of outgrow that.

And actually that maybe would've been a good direction for their TV shows to kind of get a good spotlight into, but what do I know? 

Mike: Yeah. Going off on a, on a side tangent, I have generally enjoyed the, the CW shows. I haven't watched all of them, but they're fun. They're disposable Legends of Tomorrow really became a fun experience after it turned into Doctor who, but with superheroes. 

You know, the Flash at this point, I think they're on what season seven or something like that. Now I haven't watched for awhile. But something they actually did was during their big crossover, which, you know, you normally don't see in TV shows and they turned it into an annual thing.

They did, uh, I think it was Crisis on Infinite Earths. And at the end of it, they actually had Ezra Miller show up in his Snyder Flash costume, and then there's Grant Gustin on the other side, it's really a charming scene where they're sitting there and talking about how much they like each other's costumes.

Jessika: Yeah.

That's actually really wholesome. 

Mike: It actually makes me really happy when I think about that. Yeah. It's really fun. I think the new character is definitely benefited in this version of the movie. I really liked Barry Allen's intro. Actually. I thought it was really solid. We'll get into this because the Snyders' movies are always very male gazey. Women are not really well done as characters in his movies. That said, I thought as her Miller's Flash, was pretty fun. I loved the sequence where he was applying for jobs. And then we see him talking to his dad. And there's the little bit where his dad's like, "you know, where's the, where did this interest in criminal justice come from?"

And he goes, "Oh yeah, where did this interest come from? It couldn't be the fact that my dad was committed for murdering my mom, which he didn't do. And I want to prove that he didn't do it." And I was like, that's fine. That's great. The whole Cyborg thing where he's getting the training montage narrated by his dad.

I was okay with that too. I thought it was actually really neat when it was showing him wandering through the internet and he looks human and then he winds up helping out that for waitress who is just getting screwed over by the system. Aquaman, I thought was kind of the least interesting character in terms of backstory, because they were trying to do a backdoor pilot basically for his movie that was coming up.

And so they have Willem Defoe show up as Volko. And we were like, we don't fucking know who this guy is. The only reason that we know who he is now is because Aquaman has come out since Justice League. And Amber Heard as Mera, which whatever, the less said, the better, but they're sitting there and providing so much exposition about his brother or about his mother and how Mera's using his Tridents and who cares?

The only thing that saved this for me was the fact that Aquaman has played by everybody's future ex-husband Jason Mamoa

Jessika: Mhm. Never wearing a shirt nor do I want him to.

Mike: I will forgive Zack Snyder for so much just for the fact that he gave us so much shirtless Jason Mamoa 

Jessika: It's true. That was a heavy pause. You were, I might leave in part of that pause. Cause you were like, you were thinking heavily on it. There was, it was weighted.

Mike: I'm not sorry.

Jessika: Don't be.

Aquaman as the fun, loving the surfer, bro. Was such a great casting decision and direction. I mean, I was so glad that they kept in the bit where he, in that final scene in Russia, he stabs a Parademon and then surfs him through the sky, into a building and then surfs him out of the building and jumps off and does a hair flip.

And I was so happy they kept that in. 

Mike: I was too, although my one qualm with, with Jason Mamoa and how they, they wrote him, this is such a little nitpicky thing, but there's no way he would have like thrown a glass bottle into the ocean with such reckless lack of care. Like he did. There's no way. And it was in bold cuts.

And I was like, come on, Snyder

Well, right. That kind of goes back to my earlier point where I used to think that Snyder doesn't understand the major DC characters that he's putting on the film because he pulls shit like that. Or he gives Batman guns or he has Superman try to murder the police or Wonder Woman killing people in front of children, you know, or... well, the flashy actually I felt got pretty good, but it just, it always felt like this thing where I was like, Oh, I think you see these comic book panels that you really like, and then you decide to recreate them on film.

And then his brand is a very traditional over the top type of masculinity. Like you look at the movies he's done and they are all super male gazey. Like they are all about women as objects and men as power fantasies. It's not even up for discussion. 300 and Sucker Punch, I think are the two movies I hold up as examples of that.

And they're really pretty, but they don't hold up too much scrutiny in terms of depth. 

Jessika: Speaking of it, being for the male gaze Barry, I find low key cringey in both films, but like in different ways, which is interesting. 

Mike: Right? 

Jessika: And the attrical Barry has that really gross moment of falling directly onto Wonder Woman's breasts that was cut out of Snyder's version.

And like that's not the characters fault, but it's how it was written. Was it knocked out? 

Mike: No. So actually that is a scene that's pretty controversial. Apparently Joss Whedon was recreating a scene from Avengers: Age of Ultron, where Bruce falls onto Natasha, the black widow. You know, he was apparently really bitter about how Age of Ultron was not as well received.

So he was kind of just recreating things from Age of Ultron that he thought were going to play really well this time around. This isn't confirmed, but at least a couple of journalists have commented on this, on Twitter at that scene, Gal Gadot refuse to film it. So they had a body double actually do that sequence.

Jessika: Okay. Yeah. I know what that actually, the way I'm like thinking of how her head was with, I think her head was to the side. It was. Wow. Wow. Wow. Well that I, that makes me feel a little bit better. Good for you girl. That's, that's amazing that they had this whole infatuation with Barry, this random woman he's just met or he's just kind of run into, we didn't even meet her.

Mike: No. And the thing is, you wouldn't know this, but like the thing is that they had announced her casting and all that. So that's supposed to be Iris West, who is the woman that he winds up marrying. And, you know, in comics cannon, they are one of, you know, the, the, the fa- their marriage is one of the foundations of the DC universe.

It's like them and Superman and Lois lane, and a couple of others, but Barry Allen and Iris West are one of those really just kind of like permanent foundations of the DC cosmos. 

Jessika: Well, then this is a really unfortunate choice and how it was chosen to, I don't know, I get Barry being infatuated and kind of watching after her.

And that would have been all well and good. That's whatever you're going to do. My dude, you saw a pretty lady. That's fine, but it was them feeling the need to also make her as she's driving look like in a completely different direction to the side, watching him as well. And somehow that also felt like it contributed to the accident, even though that other guy also had something going on, you know, really coincidentally, you know, it just, it felt really, um, contrived and it felt very gazey in that way. But then also he does that thing where he gets closer instead of just fucking saving her. He has to like brush the fucking hair out of her face and like fucking touch her face.

And it just was so gross to me. She didn't have a choice, like, yes, maybe he was helping her, but that doesn't mean you have the right to touch her as well. 

Mike: Yeah. And I think if they had taken that one bit out of that scene, I think it would have been perfect because he's this kind of socially awkward weirdo, which I actually really enjoyed because you don't see that a lot.

And then there's the whole bit where he grabs the hot dog and then he uses it with the dogs afterwards, which I thought was clever and funny, I thought that was really cute. But the thing is, is everything about this movie, every time they did stuff, I liked, I would then wind up throwing my hands into the air about 10 seconds later because of some weird cringey decision that they did for whatever. 

Jessika: That was exactly how I felt.

Mike: And that said, other than that one moment where it's like, Hmm, okay. So I knew who that was supposed to be. And I was like, yeah, they're supposed to be, you know, destined to be together. And again, they're trying to set that backdoor pilot information up for Barry Allen and the Flash, which that movie is never fucking happening.

It's had so many production problems, but Oh my God, everything else about that scene. That was great. I, I thought one of the coolest things was the bit where he rips out of his shoes because he's moving so fast. I thought that was such a great little touch and 

Jessika: exactly. 

Mike: I mean, that's something that Zack Snyder does really well is he makes these incredibly visually arresting sequences.

And I, I also love the bit where they show, how Barry all he does is he just very lightly touches things because he's moving so fast that if he does anything more than that, it will destroy whatever he's interacting with. And so you saw that initially with the glass window in, and then later on where you see him very gently taking her down, you know, and it's, it's like a tender embrace, which with that setup makes a lot of sense.

I really liked that though the whole bit where, where he has to be so gentle with everything, because he's moving so fast that it made sense that he would save Iris in a way that looked almost like a gentle embrace. And that part didn't feel gross. 

Jessika: No, exactly. That felt necessary. And to your point, it felt like he was doing what needed to be done so that she was safe in the end.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Okay. Wait, there was one other Berry thing that I didn't like though. One more. And then I'll and then I'm done with Barry for now. It was so unnecessary and just why there was the point in the movie where Barry's talking to Victor and he goes, so what do you think, do you think Diane is into younger men?

It was so unnecessary. And especially after you telling me about this whole Iris business. Okay. If you've already got your eye on someone, why are you trying to get at Wonder Woman? 

Mike: No. And again, okay. So this goes back to my earlier point of like, I don't think Zack Snyder understands DC characters. I think he thinks he does and that we don't. 

Jessika: Zack, honey. 

Mike: You could have cut that scene out.

It served no real purpose. It's like, yeah, they're digging up the mother box, whatever who fucking cares. You could have cut that out. And it would have been fine. Barry scamming on Wonder Woman was just kind of an eye-roll moment. And I was like, this is dumb. I will say that overall, I did like Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman.

I actually, I really liked the fact that Joe Morton, the guy who played Cyborg's dad, he was on the show Smallville in a recurring role as Professor Hamilton, who was another STAR Labs employee, you know, almost 20 years ago. And I thought that was actually kind of a nice little throwback and overall the moments of levity, I generally, like, I felt like most of them hit pretty well.

And a lot of that levity was delivered by Barry or by Aquaman. 

Jessika: I would agree. 

Mike: And I also have to say it's a really good-looking movie. Like, especially when you compare it to the theatrical version, I wish Zack Snyder would learn to use color a little more. Sarah described it as "we get it, dude. You like to film things in, black." 

Jessika: Open his wardrobe. That's all he has. 

Mike: What were your favorite things about the movie? 

Jessika: Well, I felt like this version definitely felt more narratively succinct. And with the caveat that I agree that it's too much. So, you know, I, I know that I already went through that a little bit, so I won't focus on that too much, but I felt like the boss scenes, there was so much taken away from them because we spent so much time that we had what we're supposed to be, these big, epic battle scenes that felt really diminished because of the rest of the exposition that was kind of taking place around it.

Things that I did like, yeah, I did like that the Amazons got a larger and more Epic battle added bonus. My goal Robin Wright was back. 

Mike: That was so good. Yeah. All of that was so good. 

Jessika: What was such a bummer was that we didn't see the temple fall in that first one. And I, I think that was such a, that was such a big moment then it, I think it meant so much more that there was actual physical destruction. It was such a good representation of the metaphor of them being physically destroyed by the fact that they failed to protect this mother box. This was their one job that temple's one job to protect this. It could not do it. It is gone now. 

Mike: I'm actually really excited about the Amazon spinoff movie that they're planning to do. Cause I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm fine with just two hours of the Amazons being a bunch of bad-asses. 

Jessika: Absolutely. Which means could it be possible that this will be a movie completely devoid of men? There's a very good possibility, which just puts my heart a flutter. There are plenty of movies -before everyone gets all uppity- there are plenty of movies with literally no women in them. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: You know, let's throw one in our direction. Why not? 

Mike: Exactly. I don't know, but I'm really excited about it. It's funny because we still have these movies on the slate, you know, that's coming down the pipeline. And people keep on screaming about how the Snyderverse needs to be restored.

The Snyderverse is still here. Wonder Woman is still part of the Snyderverse Shazam is still part of the Snyderverse. But the thing is that the Snyderverse is not actually the Snyderverse. It's the DCEU; Zack Snyder started it, but he's not the person that gets to define what the DCEU is. It's it's Warner Brothers and AT&T ultimately kind of like, you know, how Disney gets to determine, the MCU.

What were your biggest problems with the movie? I'm curious, 

Jessika: You know, the movie's already so damn long. We did not need those stupid ass post-apocalyptics cenes. Those were stupid. They didn't make it a no, you know, we get it. You want to make another movie. Fuck off and make another movie, but you don't have to show us a half an hour of it in this movie.

This is this movie. 

Mike: No. And you know that Zack Snyder was really gearing up to make that it's quote "the knightmare sequence" that knight as in K N I G H T. Because of course it is. The fact that he's included both the sequences in his movies, you know that he really wanted to make an entire movie set with that as the backdrop.

And this was all the lead-up. Again, these are movies for kids. I don't want to see Superman murder the entire fucking planet because his girlfriend died, which they're like, "Oh no, Lois Lane died and, you know, he's going crazy." 

Jessika: Sorry, but Superman is a fucking alien. Who's going to live so much longer than Lois Lane. The very best he can hope for is that she is going to grow old and die in his arms.

And I hate to be that way, but it is the truth. And you know, what's more realistic because of his line of work. And her line of work quite frankly, is that she is probably going to lose her life a lot earlier than most people, most healthy white women, let's say yes. 

Mike: Yes. And I'm gonna jump in with one of my big problems with a movie, which is, I feel that the Snyderverse does Lois Lane real fucking dirty.

She exists to be put in danger and then to be sad about Superman then, I mean, that, that's kind of going back to the whole male gazy thing. It's like women in this movie other than Diana exist to be threatened, which is what happened with the Amazons -even though they got a bad-ass action sequence, it was all about them being used to wipe the floor by Steppenwolf- to be sad, which was the whole dialogue scene between Lois and Martha -which by the way, not even Martha, we'll get to that in a second- or to be put in danger and just saved like, you know, like Iris West and  Barry Allen, or Mira and Aquaman, that whole thing where Aquaman comes in out of the blue and saves her at the last minute from Steppenwolf.

Jessika: Hey, going back really quick to the post-apocalyptic stuff, are we to assume now that Brucey boy has some sort of like future vision. What the fuck is that like, he's just some normal ass rich dude. 

Mike: It's not explained, but it's really implied that he's suddenly receiving visions of the future for no fucking reason.

Jessika: Nah, that's stupid as fuck.

Mike:  I don't understand. 

Jessika: Come at me, Zack Snyder, that's stupid as fuck. 

Mike: It's ridiculous. I am going to say I did like one thing out of that, which was I -ugh-, I mean, like the first episode I talked about how Jared Leto, I was like, Oh God, he looks like the nun on his day off. 

Jessika: Um, I mean, no lie. 

Mike: The other thing is that in Suicide Squad, his character and acting was just insufferable.

I couldn't stand it. And in this one in the two minutes of footage of the Joker that we saw, I actually really enjoyed it. I liked the whole speech that he gave. I liked the bit where he was talking about the losses that Batman had suffered both as a son and as a father, I thought that was great. And the whole bit where he's like, "Oh, so I'm gonna present a truce. It's going to be in the form of this card. And when you want to end it, just tear it up." 

And I thought that was such a cool moment and they fucking ruined it again, where Bruce Wayne immediately goes, "well, when Harley Quinn died in my arms, she begged me to kill you. And I will-" and this is what he actually says, "and I will fucking kill you."

And I'm like, wuh- I'm out. 

Jessika: I hate about that situation. It's like, if you want to off him, you clearly don't have any issues offing people just get rid of him, stop terrorizing him. But I guess that's Batman's MO. He literally told somebody in both versions, I believe I want you to fear me or whatever the fuck he says, he's going for active fear and terrorization.

Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. Well, and that kind of ties into what happened right after the knightmare sequence vision, which is Bruce Wayne wakes up. And then we get the most useless, goddamn cameo in the entire movie of the Martian Manhunter, who is portrayed by Harry Lennix. And he has one other scene, which again, going back to my earlier point, Martha Kent, after she leaves Lois's apartment, when they bonded over being sad about Superman being dead turns into the Martian Manhunter and there, I don't remember what the line was that Lois said, it was something about like, well, the world needed Superman or something like that.

And then, and then the Martian Manhunter you see him... Martha turns into the green-skinned Martian Manhunter who, by the way, it looks like ass. I'm sorry. I think it's one of the ugliest character designs I've ever seen. And then it turns into Harry Lennix in a military uniform and Harry Lennix has some line of like, well, the world needs you to Ms. Lane. 

And then he walks off with no further explanation. And then he shows up at the very end of the movie and delivers a speech about, Oh, well, you know, you handled Darkseid well, but I'll be around. And by the way, you can call me Martian Manhunter. 

Jessika: It was a barbershop quartet of exposition for sure.

Mike: It's such bullshit. It is, again, it goes back to that thing of like Zack Snyder clearly wanted to do another movie. He was trying to set it up. So he had another movie to use this as a jumping off point from, but Martian Manhunter in this movie, but he's Tuxedo Mask like, well, first of all, he liked delivers all this random exposition, but then it's, it's that Tuxedo Mask meme where he's like," my work here is done" and everyone's like, "but you didn't do anything."

He's like, AWAY!" So come at me Zack Snyder fanboys. Martian Manhunter in this movie is Tuxedo Mask. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't love it. 

Mike: Let's compare the two. I think it was better than what we got in the theatrical version. There's no question about that. 

Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. 

Mike: I think it was fine. I don't think it was good. It's not something that I'm going to rewatch. It's something that I'm certainly not going to show to any of my kids anytime soon. 

Jessika: No. 

Mike: It reminds me of this experience I had when I was working as a writer at a game studio where one of the CEOs wound up haranguing me in the lead designer for this digital card game we were working on because the latest expansion we had put out didn't feel epic enough.

And that was the thing they kept pushing was they wanted something epic and people like that just don't understand that when your story is epic all the time, people get burnout and they stop caring about it. And the Snyder Cut was just, it was four hours of "epicness." 

Jessika: Agreed. I, there was only ramping up.

There were no dips or anything to take you on, you know, an interesting narrative journey. There just wasn't anything like that. It was, we are full steam ahead. We are headed in one direction. You are going there, whether you want to or not. It was, it felt very forced. 

Mike: Yeah. And I think it's also really tainted because this thing only exists because a conspiracy theory morphed into a harassment campaign. And then AT&T and Warner Brothers wound up caving to it because they were trying to harness that movement and that's not up for debate. It probably won't be the last time we see something like this happen now that it's proven to be a successful formula. And that really fucking sucks. Yeah. Set a precedent for sure.

Oh, and Young Justice, the cartoon, season three, does this whole storyline way better go watch that on HBO max.

Jessika:  Oh, well there you go then. Shoot. I mean, not that I want to even touch this storyline, like after sitting through arguably eight hours of it in the last couple of days, since I watched the Whedon version twice.

Mike: Why, why would you do that to yourself? Like... 

Jessika: Because I just, I, I, you know what, here's the full transparency I fell asleep the first time I watched it. So I felt like I couldn't really accurately gauge. And you know what? I felt like I woke up pretty quickly. Like I was watching my brother and he was like, Hey, you know, so he'd like, if he noticed.

He'd like, say something, if you see something, say something, my friends, but about people waking up in movies, I'm saying no. So I just, I decided I needed to, like, as I was watching the Snyder Cut, I just couldn't remember was wait a second. Was this in the movie? And I was live tweeting as I was doing it.

And then I was like, I'm going to look real stupid if Robin Wright was in this other movie and I'm like saying she wasn't, you know, because I was about to like tweet at Robin Wright? God damn. I wish I had. 

Mike: Hey man. She's like a Bay Area native isn't she? 

Jessika: Probably. She's amazing. 

Mike: Well, I know that she was when she was married to Sean Penn, they've lived right down the road from us. They were down on Fairfax or, or Greenbrae. Yeah, that's a, that's a marriage that I don't envy. Ugh, imagine marrying Sean blech. 

Jessika: No, I can't even imagine watching one of his movies right now without pausing it several times. 

Mike: Hmm. Do you have any final thoughts? I mean, we've kind of run the gamut, but you know, is there anything else that you want to talk about with the Snyder Cut?

Jessika: Well, I would say that, you know, I'm glad I was able to pause it. I did pause it like seven times while I was needed to get like snacks and things. You know, this is not a movie. That I would casually watch. I would not just sit down and be like, Oh, I think I'll watch the Snyder Cut tonight. It is a full ass time commitment.

I planned my day out. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yes. I got to get really baked and watch the Snyder Cut. Here we go. You know, I do want to say two more things in comparison about the films though, in both films, speaking of the male gaze, I could not even count the amount of times the camera was aimed so that it got a shot up Wonder Woman skirt in the bathroom.

Mike: I remember the one sequence where she's jumping off that people mover and you see ass cheek. 

Jessika: Oh yeah. And it happened several times in the Snyder Cut as well. It's not just that singular time. I would say make it a drinking game, but you may die of alcohol poisoning. So please don't do that. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, like, you need a couple of cocktails just to get through this movie anyway.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Like you said, it's an undertaking. 

Jessika: And the other thing is I kind of actually really enjoyed that Steppenwolf had someone to be subservient to when he was actually driven by something other than this ridiculous unknowing desire to get these boxes put together. For some reason that never were explained, you know?

So at least it kind of made him feel like he was a kid who was trying to get the approval of his parents. 

Mike: Oh yeah. Like during his 3D Zoom calls with, with, with the various members of Apokolips and his court. Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. Definite Dotty issues. That is for sure. 

God. I, I will 

Mike: say that I actually appreciated that they gave a little bit more backstory on that because in the movie he shows up in the theatrical version he shows up, there's no explanation about anything. It doesn't make any sense of why is this dude here instead of Darkseid. And then they do the bit where they explained that he's an exile. I thought that was better handled. I do have to say though that no matter how ominous and deep and full of rage, your voice is, the phrase "anti-life" sounds goofy as fuck.

And they say that a lot in a lot of deep threatening voices. 

Jessika: Especially when it's set out of that funky ass CGI mouth, which they did not do a good job in that second version that was messed up. It was like watching the scorpion King. It was like, I felt like it was maybe not exactly on that level, but it definitely had flat face vibes.

Mike: Yeah. Which, I mean, I love the scorpion- or the Mummy Returns, right? That's what you're talking about with, oh, it's a terrible movie, but like, oh, that whole sequence, but the Rock is another of my future ex-husbands and they did him dirty. 

Jessika: It was disappointing for something and otherwise lovely movie.

Mike:  It's a fun movie.

It's dumb as shit. But I remember watching that when it came out in theaters, I saw that movie like three times in the theaters with my friends and the other CGI and the movie is actually really good. And then they have that sequence and I was 20 at the time. And you know, this was what, 2000, 2001, when it came out and all of us were sitting there and we're dumb kids, like just out of high school.

And we're like, "that looks like ass." Like we're, we're not connoisseurs of CGI. At that point, we were just like, that looks terrible. That is so bad. It might violate the Geneva Convention. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not a lawyer, but that might be a hate crime. 

Jessika: The top half of him swaying, like it, like it's drunk on his scorpion body.

Oh, so bad.

But the armor, I like the armor better in Snyder's version for Steppenwolf. I thought it was cooler. I liked the way that it kind of moved- 

Mike: -it rippled and it had almost like a fur. It would like bristle, like fur, I thought that was cool. Yeah. 

Now it's time for us to discuss our Brain Wrinkles, which are those things that are comics or comics adjacent that we just haven't been able to stop thinking about lately.

So, Jess, how about you? What's wrinklin' your brain these days? 

Jessika: Well, since I've been so DC forward in my life, these tasting notes of mine, I recently saw the Wonder Woman 84 -it was recently released- the Wonder Woman 84 gag reel. And I sent it in your and Sarah's direction. Cause I saw it and I was like, they have to see this.

It was hysterical. Not only was it funny, but it showed a side of the characters that I think really is missing from that film. And don't get me wrong. There were absolutely moments of humor overall. It's more serious in nature, especially than the first one when you're looking at them in comparison. And I think that's why I'm such a Marvel fan girl, the Marvel characters to me, just, they seem to present a wider range of human emotions that make them feel more relatable than a lot of the characters in DCEU who just seemed like these kind of stoic, vanilla flavored, putting characters, you know, that you could kind of put them in a mold to be the other character and they might just fit.

Mike: I mean, I love the fact that the Marvel movies are a lot of times really funny like Ant-Man and the Wasp is one of my favorite movies. It's arguably my favorite MCU movie. And it's just because it's so fun and funny. Like Scott Lang is a walking dad joke. That's his entire thing. That's a huge part of his character is that he is just, he is trying to be a good dad and he is not afraid to be goofy and weird. 

Jessika: Oh, that's so wholesome. I'm getting to those films. I had to stop my, my Marvel universe jaunt in order to jump, you know, face first into the DC world. But I'm coming up for air friends. We are, we're going to get there. So what about you? What's what's been on the brain? 

Mike: Um, so last week I wound up watching a TV show called The Watch and it's based on a series called the Discworld, which have you, have you read any of this? The Discworld books? 

Jessika: I haven't, no. 

Mike: The Discworld books are by a British author named Terry Pratchett. He co-wrote good omens if you saw that on Amazon. 

Jessika: I've read that actually. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. So he co-wrote that with Neil Gaiman, immensely talented, immensely funny writer. His book, he wrote, I think 40 or 41 of these books over about 30 plus years.

And they are set in a fantasy world. That's like what Lord of the Rings would have been like if the industrial revolution had happened, where they all start, all the different races start congregating together and together in cities and there's vice and corruption. It's generally pretty funny. A lot of the books are set in the city called Ankh-Morpork where there is the city watch. 

The BBC did a new series that just came out and it's not great. Because the books are all really funny and sweet and they're universally a little philosophical about life and how we all interact. And the show is such a misfire because the show runner clearly had a vision about what he wanted to do, and he wasn't going to be dissuaded away from that.

It was kind of like what Zack Snyder was doing. And so he went with this overall aesthetic. That's very punk rock that doesn't really work except for one scene that's actually kind of fun about halfway through and there's some cool moments to it where it's like, there's some neat set designs and costumes.

And I liked some of the gender swapping they did with the characters, but for the most part, it just really,  is not fun. And it's also not funny, like the moments where they try to be funny, not they just, they aren't. Like, and I mean, like there are a lot of other problems. Like the show runner really stirred up a hornet's nest when he commented about like filming wrapping and he thanked everybody except for Terry Pratchett, the guy who wrote the books and Terry Pratchett died a couple of years ago.

So he is especially beloved and like his estate  and his daughter who is a very successful games writer, she actually wrote the last couple of Tomb Raider games if I remember right... uh, they, they totally disowned it. 

Jessika: Oh, wow. 

Mike: So it's not good. But it's also just kind of all of this media that we have watched over the past couple of days has made me feel like we're on the cusp of this cultural repeat of revamping really kind of iconic or beloved properties and turning them into these dark brooding antihero takes. 

And I'm, I'm really not looking forward to it. I feel like we're on the cusp of that nineties extreme again, taking root in society for a couple of years, and I think it's going to be bad.

Jessika: It makes sense. The nineties jeans are back. I mean, I know bring it with it, the media, I suppose. Not that I'm a fan that, but yeah... 

Mike: We're overdue for the Jeanco Jeans to come back. 

Jessika: Yeah, we are. 

Mike: You remember those? 

Jessika: Yeah, I sure do. They were heavy as fuck. I was more of a flare girl myself. Although I had to figure out how to find ones that weren't so low Cut, that they went under my gut.

My little gut roll. You know, there was a very, very specific type of size zero high school student who can even pull that off. And after that point, you're either still that skinny and good for you. And you still look like you're in high school at that point, or you just do not fit into them properly. And you are just the laughing stock of the neighborhood... probably not quite because everyone had them. Oof.

Mike: I don't know how to end this up.

Jessika: Well, maybe I'll end it then. 

Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. This episode was hosted by Jessica Frazier and Mike Thompson, written by Mike Thompson, and edited by Jessica Frazier. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound. Our credits music is "Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from premium beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank. 

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us how we got something wrong. Please head over to tencenttakes dot com or shoot an email to tencenttakes at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is tencenttakes. Jessica is jessikawithak and Jessica has a K in it as well. And I am vansau: V A N S A U. 

Jessika: You stay safe out there. 

Mike: And support your local comic shop.

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries, the sub-series where we talk about interesting comics we've come across while digging through dollar bins. This week, we're joined by comics writer Sarah Cooke to talk about her first comic Kickstarter and discuss Mercury Heat, Batman: Shadow of the Bat 28, and the first issue of the strange 90s series Poe!

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Special thanks to Sarah Cooke for coming on the episode to talk about all her amazing projects (and dollar bin issues)! If you want to check out her stuff, here are all the relevant links:  No Spell Lasts Forever: 

• Kickstarter: tiny.cc/nospell
• Aimee's site: https://www.aimeedrawsstuff.com/

My Human Experience

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHESeries

Sarah's Links:

• Instagram: @sarahcookewriter and @nospellcomic
• Twitter: @sarahcookewrite
• Substack: https://sarahlindseycooke.substack.com/

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

What happens when you combine two of the biggest brands of the early 1980s? You get RadioShack's TRS-80 Whiz Kids comics, with special guest stars from the DC Universe. Marvel at snarky teens sassing the Man of Steel, then laugh at how he makes them perform complex math with mediocre computers!

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Episode 16 Transcript

Mike: [00:00:00] I used to go into an office, and when I did that, I had a dog that everybody loved and I baked cookies every day.

Hello, hello, hello, welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we sell out as superheroes, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my co-host, the talk show host of terror, Jessika Frazer.

Jessika: Bwahahaha! I like when you give me nicknames that are a little mischievous and/or villainous, by the way.

Mike: I mean, villains are always the most fun.

Jessika: They really are. They get to do all the cool shit. 

Mike: Yeah. You need a strong villain in order to have a good story.

Jessika: Absolutely. 

Mike: The purpose of this podcast is to look at notable moments in comic book history. [00:01:00] They can be big or they can be small, but we always hope that they're interesting, and we like to talk about them in ways that are both fun and informative.

Today, we are going to be going back back back to the eighties and talking about the time that Superman sold computers for Radio Shack.

Jessika: Fucking sellout. 

Mike: Man, I don't. Can you blame him though? I mean, he was a reporter, like he needed the extra cash.

Jessika: That's true. That does not pay all that much, from my understanding 

Mike: Uh, speaking as someone who worked as a journalist for a decade, I can tell you it does not. 

Jessika: Confirmed, everyone. 

Mike: Confirmed. Before you freak out and think that you've missed an episode or that things are airing out of order, we are actually still doing the Sandman book club series, but we have decided to break it up, so it's not just one giant slog for people who aren't interested in Sandman. So that way there's a little something for [00:02:00] everybody, even as we're doing that prolonged experience.

So every other episode will be the Sandman book club. Before we get to that though. What is one cool thing that you have read or watched recently?

Jessika: Just last night, I watched the first episode of the Amazon Prime, let me just say it's 18+, animated series, Invincible. 

Mike: Hmm. 

Jessika: Have you seen that yet? 

Mike: I haven't, I read the comic for a while and I really liked it, but then it just kind of felt very repetitive. And also, I didn't like how the comic got very women in refrigerator-y.

Jessika: Oh, okay, fair enough. 

Mike: Like yeah. Um, I hear it's great. I just, it's kind of, it's kind of like The Boys where like, I read the comic and, and then when they announced they were making a TV [00:03:00] show, I went, eh don't know. I like, I'm not sure. I really want to see that translated to the screen and then it was great. And so I'm sure that Invisible will be great.

Jessika: I will be talking about The Boys later, in fact. 

Mike: Oh okay. Well, then.

Jessika: But for now, yeah, I know, spoilers. So for those of you who hadn't seen it yet, it's about a teenage boy whose father is a famous superhero and the kid himself has also potentially expected to get powers, which he, not spoiling anything, he does, and very early on in this episode.

And when this happens, his father starts teaching them how to use them properly, even though he seems a little disappointed, even, that his really did have powers, which was kind of strange, but we'll see where that goes. But what I really liked about this series, is that they make fun of our well-known superheroes with a character like Batman and one that's very much like Wonder Woman, et cetera.

And again, I don't want to give too much away, but the ending is [00:04:00] super intense, and I'll definitely be watching more of it tonight after we've finished recording this. 

Mike: Yeah. And I will say that the comic itself has moments that are shockingly intense too. And it's really interesting because there are these moments that feel very wholesome and playful, and then there are other scenes that are complete 180 and it's really, it's kind of whiplash. 

Jessika: That was how it felt in the show as well. So I mean, that translated definitely. 

Mike: Yeah, it's one thing that's actually really neat is that it's the guy who wrote the comic, Robert Kirkman, is also the guy who created the walking dead. 

Jessika: Hm. 

Mike: So, you know, dude knows how to write a hit. 

Jessika: Yeah.I guess so, huh.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, what about you? What have you been reading or watching? 

Mike: You mentioned a couple of weeks ago that you had read the first issue of a series called Die, by Kieron Gillen. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I'd heard about it. I thought it looked [00:05:00] interesting. And then you mentioning that, threw it back on my radar, and so I found the first three volumes on Hoopla and I wound up bingeing through all of them in a couple of hours.

And it's really good. I really like how it matches up a bunch of D & D tropes along with other things. And I just, I really, really enjoyed it. And so I want to say thank you for putting that on my radar.

Jessika: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. You're welcome. And I'll have to go on Hoopla and check out more myself because I'd been wanting to, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. 

Mike: No, shall we, uh, shall we mosey along? 

Jessika: Mosey let's do it. 

Mike: What do you remember about Radio Shack when you were growing up?

Jessika: Good old Radio Shack. Radio Shack was huge, when I was growing up.

It was [00:06:00] definitely a household name and it had a reputation that it carried most electronics related items that you may want or need to purchase. So just on my memory block here in particular, they used to carry a radio that was pretty easy to alter, to be a scanning radio, to use for ghost hunting.

And for a while, it was a great cheap alternative to buying something made for that purpose. And it was priced really low and like affordable versus like buying something that was made for that purpose. 

Mike: Mm.

Jessika: And I’ve trying to find one of those radios for years now, but honestly, it's probably a dead end at this point, and I should just pony up the money to buy actual ghost hunting equipment. I mean, honestly, I should probably, if I want it, like I'm a full ass adult, I can afford the expensive things, maybe. 

Mike: We have credit cards now, Jessika.

Jessika: Just charge it.I say I can afford the expensive things, like I really can, which isn't actually true. 

Mike: All right.[00:07:00] 

Jessika: I can afford the mid-level things. 

Mike: Yeah. I dunno. We used to have money and then we got air conditioning, and we're poor now.

Jessika: I'm safe. I'm squirreling it away, man. Trying to buy a house, it's expensive. 

Mike: Yeah. Especially where we live.

Jessika: I don't recommend it. Folks. 

Mike: Yeah, no, just.

Jessika: Just stay away. 

Mike: Yeah. Welcome to the Bay Area. The dystopian capitalist apocalypse.

Jessika: Everything is overpriced, and on fire. 

Mike: We're not making this up. Everything is literally on fire these days. 

And, and over priced, but that's just California in general. Yeah. Well, I mean, I had a similar experience to you, in different ways, but like, you know, it was the same brand awareness of Radio Shack. I didn't realize until I was doing the research for this episode, that Radio Shack is actually a hundred years old [00:08:00] as of this year.

Jessika: What? How?

Mike: Yeah. It was founded in 1921 by these two brothers, Theodore and Milton Deutchman. They set up a mail order business and a single retail location that was focused on providing parts for ham radio, which was a field that was still pretty new back then. And they wound up doing pretty well for a while, but they basically were bankrupt by the early 1960s. But you know, like 40 years is not a bad run.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: And then they got acquired by the Tandy corporation in 1960 for $300,000. Up until this point, Tandy had been this leather goods company and they were looking to basically get into the business of appealing to hobbyists, which they felt Radio Shack would be able to do.

So, in order to do this, Tandy basically performed a complete overhaul of the unprofitable company it had just acquired, and the Wikipedia page has a really solid [00:09:00] summary of what happened.

Jessika: Tandy closed Radio Shack's unprofitable mail order business, ended credit purchases, and eliminated many top management positions eating the salespeople, merchandisers and advertisers. The number of items carried was cut from 40,000 to 2,500, as Tandy sought to identify the 20% that represents the 80% of sales and replaced Radio Shacks handful of large stores with many little holes in the wall, large numbers of rented locations, which were easier to close and reopen elsewhere if one location didn't work out. 

Mike: Yeah. So basically they were just going for a strategy that made Radio Shack into a much leaner, more nimble operation, which that's like the goal these days, those are kind of the golden buzzwords, but they were actually trying to do that. Charles D. Tandy, who was the guy who actually ran Tandy corporation back then, said that they were [00:10:00] basically not looking for the guy anymore, who wanted to spend his entire paycheck on the sound system, and instead they were looking for customers who wanted to save money by buying cheaper goods and then like improving them through modifications and accessories.

So now they were really appealing towards nerds, and aiming at kids who are going to like work on stuff for the science fairs. And honestly it, it worked. I mean, when I was growing up Radio Shack was that store you went to, when you needed some small part a replacement, there was always one nearby.

And even if they didn't have a name brand part, they usually had an off-brand version of whatever you needed. And, I never went there thinking that it was going to break the bank. It was always a fairly affordable thing.

Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. I can think of like four different locations where they had a Radio Shack, just like in our area here. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, like, I grew up in San Francisco in the eighties, and they were all over the place.[00:11:00] 

So now, what's interesting is that the whole rise of personal computers happened to coincide with this period of success for Radio Shack.

The late seventies was when personal computers with microprocessors started to actually be a thing on the consumer market, but typically if you wanted one, you had to build them from a kit. Like you, you physically had to, like, buy the kit and then assemble it, following the instructions, which, I mean, I'm not going to lie. That is terrifying to me.

Jessika: That is terrifying. And it's total nerd shit too. They were right. 

Mike: Right. Fucking nerds.

Jessika: Nerd bait.

Mike: Radio Shack actually wound up introducing the TRS 80 in 1977. And it was a game changer for the company because it was one of the first pre-built computers. And it was simultaneously backed by a national retail chain. 

It was this super basic computer that sold for $600, which adjusting for inflation is like $2,700 nowadays. [00:12:00] 

Jessika: Holy shit. There's no way. There's no way the average family is like, let's get one of those right away.

Mike: No, it was, I mean, you know, this was for people who were super enthusiast, or had a lot of disposable income, which the middle-class used to have back then. 

Jessika: Different times. 

Mike: The salad days. But yeah, so the TRS 80, even though it had a fairly high price point sold like hotcakes, like gangbusters. I found this book and it's called, Priming the Pump: How the TRS 80 Enthusiast Helped Spark the PC Revolution, by Teresa Welsh and David Welsh. It has this really interesting history about that point in time, which, I mean, I'm not going to lie,

I was waiting for her to be really dry, but it's full of a lot of really personal stories and anecdotes and it's cool, I really dug it. Basically, when they started manufacturing this computer, they were only expecting to sell 50,000 units. There's this great quote, talking about how [00:13:00] much of a surprise the first TRS computer sales were.

Jessika: Both Charles Tandy and John Roach may have been skeptical about such a large. But it turned out to be an underestimation. When the first anniversary of the products came, the company found the, had sold many more than the prediction and taken a whopping 250,000 orders for TRS eighties. Most of them still undelivered. Actually we've seen various numbers in different sources, so we can't verify this number, but they certainly sold considerably more than 50,000. Don French said they received a number of threatening phone calls from people who demanded delivery of their TRS 80 right away. Ooh!

Mike: Yeah, so after this huge success, they then ended up following the TRS 80 with the TRS 80 Color in 1980. And basically the first TRS computer was kind of like a full, complete unit with a built-in monitor and everything. [00:14:00] The TRS 80 Color, in turn, was just the computer itself, and then you would plug in a color TV instead of using this built-in monitor. The TRS computers wound up selling well enough that Radio Shack really leaned hard into the computer business, and they even started offering computer camps for pre-teens in the early eighties, which was kind of an extension of that mission that they wanted to appeal to kids who wanted to excel at science fairs, because I mean, you know, those were the new nerds. So if you want to learn more about the TRS computers, by the way, there's this really great site called MatthewReadsTRS80.org.

That helped me kind of learn about a lot of this stuff. I'll put it in the show notes, but it's really kind of an interesting walk-through, this particular venue of history. Anyway, this was the high point for Radio Shack, to be perfectly honest. By September of 1982, the company had more than 4,300 stores just in America and [00:15:00] more than 2,000 independent franchises and towns that were not large enough to have a company owned store. So, for comparison, there are fewer GameStops worldwide today than there were Radio Shacks in the early eighties. 

Jessika: Wow. 

Mike: Like, I realized that GameStop has been having a rough go of it lately, but there's still a lot of them around.

Jessika: Yeah. Huh.

Mike: And during this period of unmitigated success, that's when the Whizkid's started to show up in comic books. The early eighties were right around the time when computers were starting to get a lot of prominent, you know, quote unquote roles in media. If you're listening to this and you want to learn more, there is a site dedicated to media prominently featuring computers and storylines, and it's called Starring the Computer, that tracks stuff like this all the way back to the fifties. It's an incomplete list, but it's really interesting, and they have a whole section devoted to Tandy computers.[00:16:00] Like, I remember there was an episode of Murder, She Wrote very early on where she moves to New York and there's this whole plot about how she's gotten a computer to write her novels on.

And then evidence is falsified with a modem. It's really interesting. And you know, the computer was this suddenly viable object that could play a part in people's everyday lives and could serve as a driving narrative device. But as far as I can tell the first time anyone made comics specifically focusing on educating people about personal computers was when Radio Shack started to do these comic books.

And I think that's just because it was such a new thing, especially on the personal consumer market, because, you know, up until recently computers had been these huge things that took up buildings on their own. 

Jessika: Yeah. And they had to be, like cooled, professionally, and I mean, it was just this whole thing. 

Mike: Yeah. I mean, there [00:17:00] is a movie right now on Disney plus called The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes. 

Jessika: Oh, yeah!

Mike: A very early Kurt Russell, and it's one of those things where the whole he's in college and he winds up getting shocked, I think, and there's this whole thing, this computer gets basically downloaded into him. So he has the processing power and knowledge of this computer, but they show you the computer and it like, it is a giant monstrosity of a thing that takes up, I think, an entire lab. 

Jessika: It does. I remember that movie.

Mike: And I mean, our phones, these days are more powerful than those. So RadioShack started making comics in 1971. They were putting out a series of educational comics called the science fair story of electronics via the Radio Shack education comic book program. But, then in 1980, they pivoted and they started giving away these new comics in stores.

You could also, [00:18:00] if you were a teacher, you could send in a request to Radio Shack on school letterhead and get a free pack of 50. 

Jessika: Oh, wow.

Mike: And yeah, like, you know, they were really pushing that hard because these comics were educational, but they were also advertisements. 

Jessika: Very much so. Oh, that was something I messaged you earlier,  was like, wow. I was reading just an ad there, wasn’t I? 

Mike: But, I mean, I will say they were, they were educational. 

Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. 

Mike: Yeah, so the Superman Radio Shack giveaway comics starred the aforementioned Whiz Kids, Alec and Shanna, along with their teacher Mrs. Wilson, but for the first three issues, which were published in 1980, 81 and 82, they also starred Superman and other characters from the DC Universe. 

Jessika: I need to correct you for a second, because you said Mrs. Wilson, and it definitely was Ms. Wilson. 

Mike: Oh, I'm sorry. That's right. 

Jessika: It was Ms. Wilson, and I think that will come into play [00:19:00] later. 

Mike: That is true. She did not have a ring on her finger.

Jessika: She did not. She looked a little close to all the superheroes that waltzed right up in there, half naked into her classroom. 

Mike: I mean, can ya blame her?

Jessika: No, she was hot too. 

Mike: Right? We're going to talk about each of these specific issues, but first up is the Computer That Saved Metropolis, which was published in July of 1980. So, even though this was a promotional giveaway, DC committed some pretty serious talent to the book. The first two issues were written by Cary Bates, who was this long-term writer for DC.

He wrote a ton of action comics, Superman, and the New Adventures of Superboy, as well as being the head script writer for the live action Superboy series in the 1980s that we discussed a couple episodes back. 

Jessika: Totally.

Mike: He also worked as a script writer for various cartoons, including Gem and Gargoyles. 

Jessika: Oh, hell yeah. 

Mike: Right. [00:20:00] But then also his name might sound familiar to some people listening to the show because we mentioned him on the New Guardians episode where, it turns out he wrote issues two through 12 of the New Guardians.

The art for this issue, meanwhile, was handled by Jim Starlin and Dick Giordano. Both of them are pretty big deals too. Starlin became a big name in comics during the seventies. He garnered a lot of acclaim for his cosmic space opera stories. He co-created characters like Shang-Chi and Thanos.

Giordano in turn was an artist who had recently come back to DC comics and was serving as the Batman editor at the time. He actually got promoted shortly after this to be the company's managing editor in 1981. And then he was promoted again to executive editor in 83, and then he stayed with the company until the mid nineties when he retired, after his wife died.

And then, aside from being a giveaway issue, this comic actually ran as a backup story in the July, 1980 ssues for Action [00:21:00] Comics, Legion of Superheroes, House of Mystery and Superboy. So Superman schilling Radio Shack computers, and forcing children to perform complex math for him, and definitely, probably schtupping Ms. Wilson, like, I think we need to agree that, that those two totally smashed.

Jessika: Oh, absolutely. And I have my theories about her and Supergirl as well. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jessika: They had a moment. 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: We both took the same picture of that same shot and I sent it to you and you were like, no way.

Mike: I thought that was so funny. 

Jessika: Don't worry, we’ll post that one. 

Mike: I, oh God. Like, I just, that was great. It was like great minds think alike. But yeah, all of this is officially a canon part of DC comics lore, which is wild. Like [00:22:00] 

Jessika: It's bat shit bananas. 

Mike: Yeah. Now weirdly it looks like this is the only issue that actually made it into other DC comics. So, you know, the other two or their own standalone things. And aren't officially cannon, I guess.

All right. How would you describe the 1980 issue? The Computers That Saved Metropolis?

Jessika: Well, these were like both very advertisey and complex at the same time in their narrative, which was interesting. So, this first one, I'm going to give you a little bit of backstory about these bitches. I say these bitches, because I'm going to be talking about a whole classroom full of children. So I obviously really like children. I have a bachelor's in French and everyone's like, you should teach. And I'm like, no, I shouldn't. 

Mike: Oh, oh no. Let's talk about that for a sec. I majored in history my first time through college, and everyone also said I should teach. And I was like, I fucking hate [00:23:00] children. I worked at Disneyland it poisoned me again. And don't get me wrong. I have, I have two stepchildren now. I love them. I would die for them.

They're great. But kids in general, not a fan. They're sociopathic little monsters.

Jessika: Mm hmm. So the comic starts off with Superman doing patrols around Metropolis, and apparently he just does that. And he just jets off to a sixth grade classroom at the whim of Ms. Wilson. 

Mike: I have my own theory about this.

Jessika: Oh my goodness. He's supposed to be a guest teacher about computers, apparently. Like, First of all, for some reason, along with his super abilities, he's also a super computer genius. And is he accredited? Like is he allowed to be teaching students? 

Mike: No. Okay. There, there are two things to discuss here. So you have [00:24:00] to remember that Superman from the Golden Age through the modern age was largely a weird sci-fi series where the main character was this alien who had all these powers that constantly changed. There wasn't really any editorial control until they streamlined it with Crisis on Infinite Earths.

But on top of that, he was generally shown to be an amazing genius, like just whenever they needed it. But ,he built the Superman robots. He. I can't remember if he made the Phantom Zone Projector or if the Phantom Zone Projector was on artifact from Krypton, he was constantly trying to restore the city of Kandor, which was basically shrunk down to the size of a bottle, and it was a Kryptonian city, to restore it to its full size. Like in that issue of Super Boy, we read, he like put all those chemicals together and created the pools that granted the dogs, various powers. 

Jessika: Yeah, no, I guess you're, I guess he's always been [00:25:00] smart. 

Mike: Yeah. But then the other thing is that Superman is a little bit too earnest in this issue. Like, he shows up exactly on time. And then he is clearly trying to impress these kids to make a good impression with Ms. Wilson. And everything about this reeks of a dude who had a one night stand and is now desperate to hook up again.

So what he's doing is he's trying to prove that A) he is reliable and B) he is good with kids.

Jessika: Yep. No, that's totally how it felt. 

Mike: I'm not speaking from experience.

Jessika: Oh, so anyway, Superman creepily knows all the students' names, I guess, because he used his x-ray vision to look at the teacher's seating chart, even though that's not how x-rays work. That's always bothered me. I'm sorry, we don't have time for this. 

Mike: [00:26:00] Thomas Edison would like a word.

Jessika: Seriously. Also, I have to mention that the whole class was bored as fuck even after Sups flew in. And I don't know about you, but every kid I knew, wanted to know about computers and have a turn on the computer when we got them in the library at school or when someone got one at home. 

Mike: Oh, yeah.

Jessika: So the idea that one of the kids in his class is being dismissive of the whole idea of not doing normal schoolwork and just doing computer class instead with fucking Superman of all people. It's just ridiculous. 

Mike: Oh yeah. And that kid actively shit talked Superman repeatedly. 

Jessika: Oh, he’s a shit heal. Oh. And he still gets to be the fucking like, protagonist. Fuck.

Mike: Oh, it was so funny. I like, my favorite was when he beats Superman at a math problem later on and like the shit talking starts immediately, and I'm like, my dude, this is possibly not a good move to irritate a guy who could literally vaporize you with a [00:27:00] glare.

Jessika: That's just it. That is just it. Yeah. No. Why would you try to piss this guy off? And then Shanna's like, Ooh, Superman. You better tell him. I was like, dude, Shanna, you, you need to shut the fuck up immediately and not goad this situation. 

Mike: You know, that was probably the most realistic part of this entire comic, because speaking as someone that lives with an 11 year old, they are shit stirrers.

Jessika: Oh my gosh. So, Supes takes the kids up to the roof because of course he does, and he proceeds to give the class some very long-winded exposition about the history of computers and their size and what they do and how they've evolved from the first computers, and moving into how they're used in society today from space travel to transistor radios, which what a time capsule of a callout. 

Mike: [00:28:00] Yeah.

Jessika: This whole thing was a whole time capsule. 

Mike: Yeah. Very much is.

Jessika: Of course, there was also some lovely product placement throughout and some not-so-subtle comments on affordability versus common household items. Tangent that always cracked me up to say, this computer is less expensive than a TV. Well, okay, but maybe I need a TV and I don't need a computer. They do vastly different things, or they did at that point. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: It kind of reminds me of saying like this China set costs less than a month of gross. Okay, well, I need to eat and I don't necessarily need a China set, so. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, he was hard selling those kids.

Jessika: Oh yeah. He was like, you should ask your parents to go out and buy you one. 

Mike: Yup.

Jessika: So, of course, Supes hears with his super hearing a tornado and he like jets the fuck out of there. And, he defeats it by [00:29:00] blowing the wind or something like that. And then he feels all sick and shit, and comes across a villain named Major Disaster who, you know, just as his name implies, causes quote unquote natural disasters like there's floods and shit. It was a little ridiculous. 

Mike: Yeah, he was always kind of like a C- to D-list villain who would use weapons and equipment to make natural disasters. My knowledge of this character is hazy at best, but I think eventually he gained the ability to manipulate probability. He didn't appear a lot and he's been dead for a while, I think. Cause I remember him showing up as a zombie in Blackest Night.

Jessika: Oh. 

Mike: But, I mean, I remember reading this stuff and I was like, this is kind of a cool, like off-the-wall villain. I dig him. You know, I certainly liked them a lot better than other villains that I've seen in Superman books where it's like, you know, generic alien warlord number five.

Jessika: Seriously. Well, and when I read the name, Major Disaster, I was like, [00:30:00] same, girl. So, of course Superman needs the help of these children that he like, makes them perform these, like, high-stress situational calculations on the computer for him. Instead of like asking the adult he's banging in the room.

Mike: I mean.

Jessika: Honestly, come on, like, get the adults involved, like, Alec and Shanna don't need to save the day. They're supposed to be in sixth grade, even though they look way older than that.

Mike: Like, yeah, they looked like kind of like eighth or ninth graders. Like they were a little bit older, it seemed. 

Jessika: The second one, they looked older than that, they looked like they were teenagers in the second one, for some reason, I was like, what's that? And then the third one, they got young again. And I was like, I don't know what's happening with you guys, but.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I will say that I was willing to believe that Alec was in sixth grade just because he had that awful fucking bowl haircut that like. 

Jessika: My brother had that. 

Mike: Right. Yeah. But [00:31:00] when did he stop having it?

Jessika: No, no, you're right. Probably after he was like in, probably after middle school. 

Mike: Yeah. It's, you know, it's that thing where suddenly you realize, oh, I can go to a barber instead of having my parents cut my hair. 

Jessika: Oh. So the kids basically do a bunch of calculations, and they double check each other's work by doing the same calculation on two separate computers that Supes and flown in prior and just left there. Apparently. 

Mike: Yeah. And there's a whole thing about how Major Disaster had knocked out all the other computers in town, but he didn't know about these two personal computers because personal computers were a new thing. And that's the other reason that they're the ones who were performing the calculations and then they're on radio headsets with Superman providing this information.

Jessika: I still say you're in a school that has way more adults than just the one standing in that room, and even that one's not involved. So.

Mike: I mean, well, and the other thing is that the math equations that he's throwing at them are like this jet is falling out of the sky at this speed. [00:32:00] The wind is this fast. They're going at this angle. How fast do I need to go to catch them without doing damage to the plane or the people inside. And it's like, first of all, of course, yes, as you said, it's high stress, but second, like I still don't know how to do that math equation. I don't know how these sixth graders did because they looked like they were in a pretty shitty school that Superman made worse at one point when he liked tunneled up through the floor and just left a giant hole.

Jessika: He was like, I'll fix that later. 

Mike: Sure you will, sure you will, Clark.

Jessika: It's awful. Uh. So he finally of course finds the villain, defeats him, whatever. Then the kids are hailed as heroes and as a reward, I guess they get to be at a Radio Shack commercial about the computers they used. I mean, cool. I guess. 

Mike: Yeah. It was kind of a, a, meh ending, but, but yeah. Like, I dunno. Did you [00:33:00] like the issue overall? I'm curious.

Jessika: It got really in the weeds playing up the computer aspects, which okay. I get it. You know, again, I get it. This is an advertisement, but dude, snooze fest, I put it down a few times and had to pick it back up, during those computer exposition parts. And you know, I'm slightly bothered by a vague plot line, but all in all, like it was, it was fine. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: To use your line. 

Mike: Yeah. I mean, reading through it, some of the computer history stuff I thought was actually pretty interesting 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: Like, when they went up on the roof and he was saying, you know, so the space that we're sending in actually is the size of what computers used to fill. And yeah, it does get a little too in the weeds because they're trying to get a little too much exposition in there at the same time. I felt like overall it walked a relatively fine line of providing action that was kind of [00:34:00] interesting. And, and the plot line of, oh, well, yeah, his powers were on the fritz because there was microscopic kryptonite particles in the tornado and he inhaled them when he was getting ready to blow it out.

Like, I thought that actually was surprisingly well thought out for basically a licensed advertisement. You know, this was, this was effectively a full length version of one of those like hostess, Twinkies ads that they used to do. 

Jessika: Right? 

Mike: Yeah. But like, I didn't hate it. I found it charming.

Jessika: It had its moments. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm not going to lie, I found the undeniable sexual attention between Superman and the kid's teacher really entertaining.

Jessika: Yeah, definitely it was palpable. I thought it was even funnier too, that the kids were even, like Ms. Wilson, how do you know Superman? 

Mike: And she doesn’t answer!

Jessika: And she was like, She like side eyes.[00:35:00] How do I know Superman?…Biblically. 

Mike: Well, and that was the funny thing was when we were talking about this ahead of the episode, I was like, so yeah, they, they totally smashed, right? Like, like that's not up for debate.

Jessika: No, it's really not. It happened. 

Mike: All right. let's move on to the next issue. So. Clearly, this was a successful marketing tool because in 1981, DC and Radio Shack released a brand new book that was called Victory By Computer. So this time the main story was illustrated by a couple of legendary artists.

There was Curt Swan and Vince Colletta. Coletta started as an artist and anchor from the Silver Age of comics. He frequently collaborated with Jack Kirby who is known as, you know, the king of comic books, and a lot of folks considered their run on Thor to be the definitive take on the character. 

Kurt Swan's involvement, on the other hand, is especially noteworthy. [00:36:00] He is considered by many comic book artists to be the Superman artist. He started penciling Superman and Superboy comics in the late forties. And he didn't stop until DC put them out to pasture in the mid eighties because they were rebooting Superman via Crisis on Infinite Earths. 

Arlen Schumer, who's this major comic book historian, says Swan penciled over 19,000 covers and pages of interior art for Superman comics. 

Jessika: Whoa!

Mike: Yeah. Like again, they were putting some serious talent behind these books.

Jessika: They were pumping out a lot of content, to be fair. 

Mike: Yeah. How would you summarize Victory By Computer?

Jessika: We find ourselves, yet again at the elementary school, I put in heavy quotations of kids that look like they're about 17 years old, this issue. So Shanna and smartass Alec are back at it. This time, Supergirl joins the class to [00:37:00] teach them about the pocket computer. What a fucking throwback. 

Mike: Like, that's something that we need to explain. Like the pocket computer was, basically kind of like a smart calculator that could perform basic functions and had a little keyboard in there. And I don't know how much they sold for, but they couldn't have been cheap.

Jessika: I can't imagine so, yeah. Well, and by the way, at this point in the scene where Supergirl pulls out, her pocket computer, she pulls out of a pocket on her cape. So canonically, there are pockets in the capes.

Mike: Yeah. They can't get them on the rest of their costume, but they can get them in their capes. 

Jessika: Which means that there's just stuff like weighing down the cape, so it shouldn't even be moving like it does. 

Mike: I remember in an early issue of Superman, the eighties series that John Byrne was doing, there is a bit where he stops by a balloon vendor because he's got a drone pursuing him and he winds up like [00:38:00] thinking, oh, it's lucky that I always carry a few spare dollars in like my belt buckle because he had that yellow belt back then, which side note I miss the yellow belt.

I don't know if it's back, cause I haven't read any Superman comics for a while, but they got rid of it for quite some time. Like, I mean, you know, it's the Henry Cavill look now or it's the full blue suit. I miss the red trunks in the yellow belt.

Jessika: Yeah. the good old days.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So Supergirl decides to use her super powers to show the class they are able to find information on the TRS 80’s as fast as she was able to find it, like physically with her super powers looking for it. And it was like, okay, sure. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: When an odd comparison, but fine. 

Mike: Yeah, it was really weird, there was a bit where they, like, it almost felt like they were hacking into the newsfeed of, I think the Daily Planet to get headlines, even though I'm sorry, but like, come on really, you think that a [00:39:00] print journalistic outlet is going to have top of the line technology back then come on.

Jessika: No they're not putting any of that into a computer. They're still handwriting everything. 

Mike: Yes. I think back then they were still using, the electric typewriter that had like the built-in, it was quote unquote memory, but it was, you know, not really.

Jessika: Not as we know it now, at least. And there was some definite sexual tension with Ms. Wilson at Supergirl as well. We will post the picture. Um. 

Mike: Right. It's this whole bit where Supergirl is like, oh, don't worry. I'm a school teacher in my secret identity. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, Are you just trying to impress her with this? What's the end goal of revealing this crucial information about your secret identity, Supergirl?

Jessika: I know, right. She's just trying to connect with another human. She's like I'm also a school teacher. We should talk about it over dinner sometime. 

Mike: And then maybe move in together after three weeks of dating, and adopt three cats.

Jessika: Oh, my gosh. So, Super girl basically [00:40:00] teaches the class and then she I'll bet she just left those fucking pocket computers too, because you know, just like Superman just left the computers there. He was like, have fun kids. 

Mike: Okay. Yeah, but here's the thing, like, you really think that some middle school kids or elementary school kids, however old they fucking are. You really think that they're going to sit there and try to steal the computers that the literal alien gods from other planets dropped off and taught them about?

Jessika: Oh, I'm not, I'm not worried. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, no, I'm not worried about them stealing it. I'm just like Superman just apparently has like the extra spending cash that he can just like drop off two computers to a school and just like fuck off. Like really? 

Mike: No, I mean, I, I viewed it the other way of just like, they're like, they're not worried about it. They're like, yeah. We'll, we'll get those back. Don't worry. 

Jessika: Oh, so Supergirl apparently gets asked to go on [00:41:00] patrol by Superman and she spots something fishy. And so she goes to check it out, but it was a trap, of course.

Mike: Yeah, but I mean, it wasn't even a very good trap.

Jessika: Is a stupid trap. It was like, if you're a superhero and you happen to get curious, because you happen to be going near this location, maybe. And she like fell right into maybe a four foot by four foot hole in the ground.

So I'm not really sure how that worked either. They just were like, nah, she's going to fall right here. 

Mike: Yeah. Like she fell through the skylight after getting hit with like a blast of red sun radiation, or whatever it is. 

Jessika: You know what it was, they used their TRS 80 to calculate where she was going to fall. So she gets stuck in what's basically like, it's like a lounge. It's like somebody's living room, and they have a computer there with a phone. So it's like, they weren't even trying that hard to keep her [00:42:00] there. 

Mike: No, it was, it was absolutely the, like what a seventies swinger house looks like in all the movies that we see now where you're just like, oh, oh, okay.

Jessika: It basically had a conversation pit. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Yeah. So of course, she remembers the phone number from Ms. Wilson's classroom.

Mike: Yeah, because the rotary phone had the phone number printed on the front of it, because that was a thing that used to happen.

Jessika: I feel like that's a little more explaining than she needed to give. I think she is making up for the fact that she just knows that number by heart. 

Mike: I was going to say, I think she really wanted to get Mrs. Wilson's phone number, and then it just happened to actually be helpful in a way other than getting her a date.

Jessika: Gosh, Ms. Wilson, man. And canonically bisexual? Question mark?

Mike: I don't see why not. I think we can, I think we can [00:43:00] officially declare it.

Jessika: Someone's going to @ us, I hope they do. So at any rate, she gets in touch with the class. She makes them do all these weird wacky calculations, has some get in touch with Superman. And by the time Superman gets there, like she's gotten out of it because she also used the computer to find out that there were like underground tunnels. And so she's like, I'll just walk out of these tunnels. 

Mike: Yeah, basically it turns out it was like an old mob hide out and the students were able to look up some articles, which again, like, I don't know, because I was born in 81 and I don't have a good idea of what computer and internet adjacent technology was like back then. But they apparently look up articles about this hideout that got busted and they learned from the articles that there were underground tunnels that. Whatever, it was dumb, they don't even show her getting out. It was dumb.

Jessika: No, she's just like walking out afterwards and Superman’s, like, [00:44:00] oh, I was here to save you. And she's like, I just took the tunnels dude. And then like the bad guys are just, they just happened to be driving by. So they were like, well, let's just go get the bad guys. What do you think? It looks like, oh those are Lex Luther's dudes. Let's just go get the bad guys. 

Mike: Yeah. And there's a whole thing where like, Lex Luther has announced from jail that like Superman is going to break him out and it's a much looser plot than the first issue was. Like the first issue, there was like, I felt like a much tighter story, you know, in between the educational bits, this one, it felt like they were kind of stretching to figure out a way to connect all this stuff.

Jessika: For sure. Yes.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So I think we can safely say that this was not our favorite of three books.

Jessika: No, this one was so ridiculous. I mean, I loved the heavy, heavy [00:45:00] gay overtones.

Mike: I mean, when do we not love the heavy gay overtones? Come on.

Jessika: It's the agenda after all: brunch for everyone. 

Mike: Yeah. So like, do you have any final thoughts on this, or should we move on to the last of the three books?

Jessika: Ugh. That's just once mosey. 

Mike: Okay. All right. So 83 was when we got the final book, which is the Computer Masters of Metropolis. So, this time Paul Kupperberg wrote the script for the comic. Kupperberg, he's not exactly a household name in terms of comic books, but he is actually pretty prolific. He's written over a thousand comics during his time as a writer,

including the first appearance of He-Man and then he wrote the subsequent Masters at the Universities for DC. Yeah, like, you know, so I've read some of his stuff and I didn't even realize it. Also like, this is actually my favorite factoid about him. He served as the senior editor of the Weekly World News shortly [00:46:00] before it got shut down in 2007.

Jessika: What?

Mike: Yeah. And like that automatically makes me like the dude, because the Weekly World News was one of my favorite things when I was in college, and because I was so good at Photoshop in high school and college, and I was interested in journalism, but I also love the weird stuff, I actually wanted to apply to the weekly world news for a job just for like a little while.

And be like, yeah, like I Photoshop pictures of bat boy. Like, I really was hoping that that would be a thing, and then they shut down right after I graduated college and broke my cold black heart.

Jessika: It's a damn shame. 

Mike: But yeah. So, meanwhile, the art was handled again by Curt Swan and then he was also assisted by Frank Chiaramonte. Chiaramonte was Swan's regular anchor on the main Superman book from 1978 to 82. And then this is one of his last books that he worked on because he died really young in January of [00:47:00] 83. He was only 40 years old. Like. 

Jessika: Oh. 

Mike: Yeah, it's really weird too. I was trying to figure out what happened and all I could find was that just, he died young. But, he was regarded pretty well and he worked on a lot of stuff. So I think if he hadn't died, he probably would've, you know, gone on to great things.

But the Computer Masters of Metropolis doesn't have a publish date other than 1982, which means it came out less than a year before his death, because he died in January of 83. 

Jessika: Oh, dang. 

Mike: Yeah. All right. So what happened in the Computer Masters of Metropolis? 

Jessika: So, those are some lucky kids studying at whatever outskirts elementary school this is. Cause it's not in Metropolis proper, it's like in the suburbs of Metropolis somewhere. 

Mike: Yeah. You know, it's superhero-adjacent to the city.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. Right. And again, not sure why Ms. Wilson seems to be on really, really [00:48:00] friendly terms with all the superheroes in the area, but Wonder Woman shows up to take them to the World's Fair, which of course is being held in Metropolis. 

Mike: Yeah. Which I mean, okay. Why, why not? 

Jessika: Exactly. Meanwhile, Lex Luther was salty about being denied entry for an exhibit for the World's Fair because the organizers didn't want to encourage his villainy. 

Mike: It's so good. It's so good.

Jessika: And so Luther decides to try to blackmail a way in, but that didn't work. So, of course he decides the thing to do is to threaten, to like completely destroy the fair, and ultimately creates another red solar radiation trap. This time, luring Superman into a room, rigged with explosives and bathed in red solar radiation, dun, dun, dun. So once again, there are computers in the room, I think, so. So he reaches out to [00:49:00] Alec and Shanna who are told that Wonder Woman should also be at the fair and to page page her. And she's basically like, okay, why are children paging me right now? But finds out that Superman is being held at the plantarium.

She lassos the whole damn building and whips it around and it somehow deactivates the red solar radiation beam? Question mark?

Mike: I don't know, man, I was pretty checked out when I was reading this. Like. They reused a lot of the same stuff, too. Like the same art where they were showing the computer chip, getting threaded through the needle, the bit where the kids are all walking on the giant demo version of the TRS, 

Jessika: Oh, and those kids were being very nice because they acted surprised and very impressed to see that same damn exhibit for a second time. 

Mike: Yeah. Which previously had showed up in the last issue. And I mean, like, it was a lot more exposition this time around too. 

Jessika: It was. 

Mike: [00:50:00] Anyway, sorry.

Jessika: No, not at all. So Superman escapes and they catch Luther and the day is saved. And the end scenes were particularly silly. The mayor I'm assuming goes to thank Wonder Woman for saving the day. And she's like, but also these children, who just happened to be standing on the stage, like right behind her anyway, like the mayor, just, wasn't going to say anything about those kids on the stage, too, apparently.

And they had a computer on stage with them? They were like, and this is the computer, let it hold the key too. And you got to know that like both Wonder Woman and Superman have to have entire rooms dedicated to the key to Metropolis that they get every time they save some damn building or something, they’re all like, chuck another one in there. No, no, no. You kids keep that one. 

Mike: It's fine. I've got 12 at home that are much nicer.

Jessika: They're hanging on a wall around in a study. 

Mike: They just use them as like coat racks.

Jessika: [00:51:00] So Alec and Shanna, once again, saved the day, I guess. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, this was actually my least favorite of the three comics, because again, it was recycling art or, or using very similar art. It was making a lot of the same points, but it felt a lot more telling, not showing. And while I was really happy to see Lex Luther being next level petty, which, these days, you know, Lex Luther is a billionaire CEO, scientist who also has like armies of underlings performing super science for him that he's able to utilize. He's basically he is a more- 

Jessika: Jeff Bezos. 

Mike: Yeah, He is He is a, I was going to say, he's just, he's a more nakedly transparent, Jeff Bezos. 

Jessika: Oh, you actually were going to say that. I'm sorry. I stole that right from out from under you.

Mike: [00:52:00] No. I mean like it's, I'm sorry, like Jeff Bezos exploits his workers and use the money that he got from that to take a rocket ship and play astronaut, which side note, one of my favorite things about that entire story is that NASA at the last minute redefined, I think it was NASA, redefined what constitutes the definition of an astronaut, so he couldn't get an astronaut patch or pin. An astronaut pin, I think.

Jessika: Which, again, the level of petty, but this is what I need. This is what I need to see, because it can't always be fucking Lex Luther winning. 

Mike: Yeah. But anyway, like I really appreciated that we got to see Lex Luther being a super villain goon, like very flamboyant, flying around with his own little personal jet pack or jet boots, whatever they were like, they were like, it was like little rockets that he had attached to like his. I'm I'm struggling to remember if it was on his boots or on his waist. It was one or the other, right?

Jessika: Yeah, I think it was [00:53:00] on his, I think you're right about the boots. And then he also had those fancy power gauntlets. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, the other thing is back in this era, Lex Luther actually had a couple of different costumes that he wore that were very colorful and over-the-top, and it was like green and purple. So it kind of was that, that Joker color motif again, you know, it was really striking. And so he had that outfit of kind of the purple and green spandex that we saw in this issue.

But then he also had this really baller set of green power armor that he used to really make Superman's life miserable for awhile. Like I said, after 1983, Radio Shack stopped with the Superman comics, but they didn't actually stop making comics. They kept on doing these comics with the Whiz Kids, but they instead moved over to Archie comic publications. I haven't been able to find out why the partnership's stopped.

There's very little actual [00:54:00] documentation about these comics outside of a bunch of articles saying, oh yeah, they happened. Like they were a thing. They were dumb. And then pretty much all I've been able to find otherwise is people selling them. Cause there's still a lot of them around. And if you're looking for a fun piece of comic book history, these aren't very expensive, even in mint condition.

That said the Tandy brand was starting to fall out of popularity by 83. For some perspective, it's estimated that Tandy controlled up to 60% of the personal computer market in the late seventies, which is like an astronomical market share.

However, and this is from an article by a guy named Ron White, that he wrote for a magazine called 80 Micro in 1987, and you can now find it on a site called Vintage is the New Old, and we'll put this in the show notes again, Tandy's market share was down to 25% by 86. So it's a pretty fast fall from grace.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: And then, even though Archie was publishing the comics, [00:55:00] none of the Archie characters actually showed up in any of these books with the Whiz Kids, although Radio Shack did publish Archie in the History of Electronics separately. 

Jessika: Oh.

Mike: Like, yeah. But based on that, my guess is that Radio Shack was looking to save some cash and Archie was probably a much better deal. I'm guessing it costs a lot more to license DC superheroes than it does to just make a comic without any big name characters.

Jessika: Oh, I am sure. 

Mike: Yeah. And then shortly after Archie took over the publication duties, the TRS computer line got rebranded to the Tandy computer. So it makes sense that the comic was rebranded from the TRS Whiz Kid's to the Tandy computer Whiz Kids. And that's actually, when I first became aware of this whole venture, because Nostalgia Alley, which is the local retro game store up in Petaluma, has a copy of one of the Tandy Whiz Kids comics on the shelf behind the counter.

And so I [00:56:00] spotted that one time and I was talking to Jason, the owner, and he let me check it out for a couple of minutes. And that's when I started looking into this whole thing, which, per usual, led us down a rabbit hole.

Jessika: Love these rabbit holes of ours. 

Mike: Yeah, they're fun. Anyway, the Tandi Whiz Kid's comics kept on coming out until 1992. And based on what I understand, they featured the Whiz Kids solving crimes, using Tandy computers and other Radio Shack products. I haven't read them. I do really want to track down a copy of the Computer that Said No To Drugs though.

Jessika: Who was offering computers drugs? They are expensive!

Mike: I, I don't know. I'm really curious about everything about that.

Jessika: Hey man, you want to hit this? It's just a fucking computer. And it's like, what are you talking about, dude? 

Mike: Oh, I'm having flashbacks now of that episode of, uh, Futurama where Bender gets hooked on electricity.

Jessika: Oh, hahahaha. [00:57:00] 

Mike: They keep on referring to it as jacking on anyway.

Yeah. But the early nineties were when things really started to go downhill for Radio Shack and they never really stopped, because stores like Best Buy and Walmart just started to really eat their lunch. And then, it got to the point where they've had to declare bankruptcy twice in the past five years or so.

Like they also declared Nick Cannon as their chief creative officer around the time of the first bankruptcy. Yeah. And now they've been bought by some shady sounding company out of Florida. So the brand is still around, but it's not really the company that we grew up with. And I don't know, I'm honestly not sure what's worse, like partnering with Nick Cannon, or being this pale reflection of your former glory. They both sound pretty bad.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: But yeah, that's the story about Superman, and how he wound up acting as a computer salesman for [00:58:00] a couple of years. You got any final thoughts?

Jessika: So I'm just shaking my head over here. Like my nostrils are flaring. 

Mike: How was that different from any other conversation I lead though?

Jessika: I literally prepare myself for these, cause I'm like, all right, you can get angry, but don't get too angry. My secret is I'm always angry. 

Mike: Dun dun dun.

Jessika: Hmm. So you know, it's really interesting to see how very far we've come since these issues came out in the early eighties. Like, we're sitting here on small laptops, I've got a phone and a tablet right here in front of me as well, and you and I are basically sitting across from each other, having a conversation, even though we're not even in the same physical location. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: It blows my mind how amazing things like high speed trains and basic information [00:59:00] searches seemed back then, when they're so commonplace now. Like, I seriously Google everything. I would be nowhere without Google. 

Mike: Yeah. My career is because of the internet.

Jessika: Yeah. Yours, yours sure, is absolutely that’s, yeah. That's a wild thing to think about too. And it's also wild to think about how much more advanced technology has become even in just, I had to do the calculations 40 years time, which I about had a panic attack when I mathed that out because. Ha ha ha. We're almost 40.

Mike: Yep. Actually this episode is going to air right around the time that I'm going to be turning 40.

Jessika: Yup. Happy birthday, to Mike. 

Mike: Thanks, I hate it. 

Jessika: No, Yeah. Right. At least you're not my mom giving my dad a [01:00:00] vulture piñata for his 40th birthday.

Mike: No, Sarah has declared that she wants my 40th birthday to be a super soft birthday, which if you've ever watched Letterkenny. 

Jessika: Yes! I was hoping You were going to say that. There has to be a unicorn. 

Mike: I know, I think it's going to be put on hold until we're all vaccinated, but we might do a belated super soft birthday.

Jessika: Yeah, okay. I figured you guys are going to have a family super soft birthday. But, if you want to have a super soft after birthday, when things clear up, I am, I am there and I will be eating some lovely pink frosted cupcakes with you. 

Mike: You’re on, big shoots.

So we are now at the point of the episode where we're going to wrap things up with our Brain Wrinkles, which is when we discussed the one thing that is comics or comics adjacent that we just can't get out of our head. So you want to start things off?

Jessika: Oh sure. [01:01:00] As I promised, I just finished watching the latest season of The Boys, which is season two. Holy shit. Holy fucking shit. That show is bat shit wild.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And what's been sticking in my head is the abuse dynamic between Homelander and mean, anybody he deals with, really?

Mike: I was gonna say, everybody?

Jessika: Yeah. And it's so interesting, cause as he was growing up, he was taught that not only is he more powerful than any person, he has been told that he is special and is entitled to do whatever pleases him. Which is really scary to see him manipulating others, using fear as a motivator to encourage them to comply. And honestly, the reason it scares me the most is just the powerlessness that these people, and most often women, are terrified into just following through with Homelander’s whims. 

Mike: Yeah. yeah. There's a lot of really [01:02:00] uncomfortable moments in that show. But I like the show, which I didn't expect.

Jessika: Well, I do like that it's putting a spotlight onto that dynamic, cause that's a dynamic that we show is very one-sided, usually a little victim blamey. 

Mike: Mmhmm. 

Jessika: You know, why didn't she just leave kind of a narrative, which we all know it's not that easy. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: And I think this is a really good example of why it's not that easy, in a very powerful way. And, it does remind me of people who are stuck in abusive households or relationships and are in different ways, powerless to leave their situations. So, hopefully it sparks some conversation. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, but what about you? 

Mike: Mine is also TV related, but it's not quite as topical as your thoughts. So, I actually was trying to show my stepson[01:03:00] some X-Men cartoons the other day. And as we started to watch the first episode of Wolverine and the X-Men, he started to ask me all these questions about who the different characters were, because they basically start the show off assuming that the audience knows who all of the X-Men are, because at the time when it launched, the X-Men were a major brand, and then Disney acquired Marvel right before this.

And then, they kind of made mutants personas, non grata, and, the mutants have not been featured in Disney programming up until the point where basically for the past 10 years, major media representation for kids of characters, like the X-Men, aren't all that common. And so it was just kind of a really thoughtful moment for me, where I realized I had to start them over from the beginning with an earlier X-Men cartoon, where he gets all these introductions. And I think there's going to be this generation that is going to grow up learning who the X-Men are a lot later than a lot of us [01:04:00] did. Like I knew all of the X-Men by the age of nine and I suspect.

Jessika: Oh, yeah.

Mike: Yeah. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to watch a generation of teenagers discover the X-Men really for the first time outside of, you know, Wolverine and Deadpool, because everybody knows who they are.

Jessika: Yeah, of course. Hm.

Mike: But yeah. 

Jessika: That's wild. 

Mike: Yeah. It's kind of one of those surreal moments of realization. Yeah. 

Jessika: Hmm. 

Mike: So, in two weeks we will be back with our next installment of the Sandman book club, which is going to be volumes three and four. And then until then we'll see you in the stacks.

Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson, and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan [01:05:00] MacDonald, and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who you can find on Instagram as @lookmomdraws.

Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions, or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter; the official podcast account is tencenttakes. Jessika is jessikawitha, and Jessika spelled with a K, and Mike is vansau, V a N S a U. 

Mike: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen. And if you like, what you hear, tell your friends.

Jessika: Stay safe out there. 

Mike: And support your local comic shop.

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Just in time to take advantage of Superbowl hysteria, we're talking about NFL SuperPro!

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Special thanks to Lance from Comic Book Keepers for hanging out with us and lending his wit and charm expertise. Head over to Apple Podcasts and smash that subscribe button! The show's also on Twitter, so be sure to give it a follow: https://twitter.com/cbkcast 

It's time for our first graphic novel book club. Starting this week, we're reading and discussing Neil Gaiman's celebrated work: The Sandman. Each book club episode will examine two volumes of the core Sandman series. Given the length of the overall series, the book club will be every other episode.  

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Today we're checking out a couple of Jessika's latest estate sale finds: Superboy 109 & 110. We discuss the history of the character and how he's evolved, as well as these two issues in particular. Are these swingin' sixties stories about the Boy of Steel any good? Well, no. Not really. But they certainly gave us something to talk about!

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Episode 13 Transcript

Jessika: [00:00:00] Dude. It's always fucking Florida,

Mike: I can't think of anything that comes out of Florida that's good.

Jessika: Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we traverse tumultuous time continuities, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I am joined by my cohost, the dastardly dog dad, Mike Thompson. 

Mike: That's a fair description. 

Jessika: That was a segue. We need to talk about your newest acquisition. 

Mike: What, Mo? 

Jessika: No. We've talked about Mo. What was your newest acquisition in relation to the squad? 

Mike: Oh, right. We bought a dog wagon over the weekend. 

Jessika: Yeah, you did!

Mike: And then, uh, already busted it out and taking them all over the neighborhood [00:01:00] and to the beach. I think it was proven to be a wise investment when this neighbor who we'd never seen before stopped his car in the middle of the road and yelled at us about how cute he thought it was.

He was like, “that's the cutest thing I've ever seen!” He was this big old dude. I'm like, alright, I'm on board with this. All right. Success. 

Jessika: Amazing. 

Mike: It was very wholesome. 

Jessika: Well, I think Mike'll have to post at least one or two pictures of the dogs  in this week’s transcript.

Mike: Yeah, no, we  can absolutely post photos of the dogs in this episode’s transcript. 

Jessika: Yes.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today we'll be discussing the boy of steel, Superboy. While there are many variations of this character, we are going to be focusing on the OG [00:02:00] comics from 1944 to 69 as the ones that we talk about, but we will also just briefly touch upon the other comics, TV shows, and movies sporting the same character, as well as touch upon the absolute nightmare that is the timeline continuity, or lack thereof, that is Superman's life story. But before we do that, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched lately? 

Mike: Sarah and I have been watching a show called Motherland: Fort Salem. Have you heard of this? 

Jessika: I have, I was interested. Should I start it? 

Mike: Yeah, we really dig it. It's on FreeForm, but it's streaming on Hulu. It takes place in this world where the United States stopped hunting witches 300 years ago and there was something called the Salem Accords signed. So now we have a world that's dominated by the USA and witches make up, as far as I can tell, the entirety of its armed forces.

Jessika: [00:03:00] Oh, snap. 

Mike: It's really cool. And the whole thing is magic is based on sound and resonance. And it's really a unique spin on things, but the show follows these three young witches who are recruited into the army and then start navigating their way through it. And the larger society, that's a part of the military and it's very comic book-y in terms of its plotting and character development and then the meta narrative as well. It's really cool. And it's really diverse in terms of casting. The storylines are really thoughtful in a lot of ways, and it's very queer. Like, extremely queer. 

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike: And the shows in the middle of its second season. And it's gotten much better. Like, I mean, it was already, it was already very good, but it feels like the second season, they really got the kick things up and they've really upped the creep factor.

There's a whole thing about witch hunters re-emerging in kind of striking back at witches and riling up public sentiment. It feels very topical. [00:04:00] And then the whole thing is that because which is get their powers from the sound of their voice, what these witch hunters are doing is they're actually like cutting out witches’ voice boxes and then weaponizing them.

It's really cool and really creepy. And I really like it.

Jessika: Oh, damn. That is like horrific. And like wow, that's an interesting concept. 

Mike: Yeah. Sarah and I have been really, really enjoying it. And it's definitely something that we put on when the kids aren't around obviously, but, 

Jessika: Oh, yeah. 

Mike: but it's really solid. So yeah, not a comic book this time. But certainly something that I think a lot of comic book fans would enjoy. 

How about you?

Jessika: Well, once again, Lauren from Outer Planes in Santa Rosa comes through on the recommendations. Because she suggested the Image series, Man Eaters: The Cursed. 

Mike: Hm. 

Jessika: It's so fun. It starts off with 15 year old Maude being forced to go to summer camps. So her parents can go on this romantic vacation by themselves without her. 

Mike: [00:05:00] Relatable. 

Relatable, mom and dad. 

Jessika: Absolutely. Well, and it's so funny because they put these fun little, like. It's almost like little artifacts in there , for you. So they have the registration card where they're registering her. And so it's like, will you be on vacation while your child is at camp? And it's like, YES. Like it literally asked that as a question like it's expected. 

Mike: Good. 

Jessika: It’s pretty funny. Another thing I found that's really funny is they have the campers have these buttons. They're like warning buttons for insurance purposes. And they say things like sleepwalker or lice, or like Gemini.

Which like big Gemini myself, like absolutely issue some warnings. 

Mike: I love it.

Jessika: And I love that there is one male character so far in this, and he's the least prepared for everything and Maude totally [00:06:00] roasts him a couple of times. 

Mike: Again, relatable. Because the one who does all the home repairs around here, it ain't me.

Jessika: Oh my gosh. So yeah, no, I added that to my pull list. 

Mike: Yeah, that sounds great.

Jessika: All right. Well, welcome to another episode of Jessika's estate sale fines. This week we'll be looking at Superboy, the comics, and I'm going to run us through the timeline of the comics as they came out, along with the TV shows and movies that were associated with those. So a lot of this is going to be like informational about when the comic came about and the character, Superboy  as Kal-El

Mike: I'm super excited. 

Jessika: there was a lot to it. And actually there was a  lot of different weirded consistencies that we're definitely gonna get into. As I've already hinted at that, I think you'll find very [00:07:00] funny, 

Mike: I'm so excited. 

Jessika: Okay. before I get too deep into this topic, I want to give a shout out to the resources that I use to compile my information today: An article from DC on DC comics.com fan news blog by Megan Downey, titled “Reign of the Superboys: The strange history of the Boy of Steel,” the Wikipedia article on Superboy, a blog post on captaincomics.ning.com in a forum called the comics round table by username commander Benson titled “deck log entry, number 176 Superboy: the time of his life,” and IMDB. for those of you who are. For those of you who are somehow unfamiliar with the basic storyline of Superboy's origins. not to be confused with Superman's origins, which he swoops in a little bit differently initially in the comics than this. but Kal-El in this instance was sent to earth by his parents before their home planet of Krypton [00:08:00] was destroyed.

He was discovered in the crater left by his arrival by locals Martha and Jonathan Kent, who adopted him, raising him as their own son and naming him Clark. At age eight, Clark is told how he was found and finds out more about his origins from Krypton. Martha makes him an indestructible suit out of a blanket that he was found with one that came from Krypton and is imbued with the same powers that he himself holds.

And it's basically just like Superman fucking around and not being in school. 

Mike: Yeah, it almost entirely takes place in Smallville, which… it's kind of like the DC universe version of Cabbot Cove from Murder, She Wrote, where you're just like, how many fucking people die in this town? You know, in Smallville, it's, it's more along the lines of how many fucking supervillains hang out in this town in the middle of nowhere, Kansas, 

Jessika: That's just it. What is it? A convention? 

Mike: I guess.

Jessika: Oh, so Superboy as a character was created by Joe Schuster and [00:09:00] Superman co-creator Jerry Siegel in 1938, but was rejected twice by Detective Comics before the growing popularity of the comic Robin, the Boy Wonder, finally convinced them to change their stance and they then decided to use it to try to relate to a younger readership with a younger character, which makes sense. Thus, Superboy made his comic debut in 1945, but just as a feature in the anthology, More Fun Comics issue 101. Now, of course, it wouldn't be comics without a little bit of drama. Schuster had assistance from Don Cameron instead of Siegel, as Siegel was serving in World War II and stationed in Hawaii. And he actually had to hear about Superboy’s and inaugural publication through a letter from Schuster. DC didn't send them any notification nor was he able to actively participate in the trajectory of the plot line 

since he was serving. It [00:10:00] was kind of a fuck you. 

Mike: considering how heavily Superman was a part of propaganda. There is literally a cover of Superman running a printing press that says, I think it says, like, “help slap a Jap.”

Jessika: Oh, that hurt me. 

Mike: Yeah. Like, I mean, Superman was very much part of World War II propaganda, and that's insane that they wouldn't let one of his creators participate in the storylines because he was serving in the, uh, okay. Whatever.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty, it's pretty rough.

So apparently there was already a rift in Siegel and Schuster's relationship. And so this just increased that strain. After that first issue, Superboy appeared in More Fun Comics, bimonthly issues through number [00:11:00] 107, but was picked up by Adventure Comics debuting in April of 1946. So he was bouncing around, that was issue number 103. And he was the lead feature for the anthology on this one

Mike: Hm 

Jessika: and remained the headlining feature for over 200 issues and continued being featured in Adventure Comics until 1969. 

Mike: That's such a huge, just, that's an incredible run.

Jessika: Yeah. It's a ton of time. And especially considering like he had, this was just like a side gig for Superboy. Really. He had other stuff going that he was doing. 

Mike: Yeah, I do know that at one point in the sixties, Superboy was I believe the number two comic in America and the only one that was doing more than that was Superman.

Jessika: It's like you were reading ahead. No, seriously. That's in my notes. 

Mike: Oh, really? Okay, cool. 

Jessika: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, no. And actually was frequently number two. We'll just  get to it now. It was frequently number two for a lot of it's run.[00:12:00] 

So notable storylines that we got from Adventure Comics were intro to Krypto, the super dog, the origin story of his rivalry with Lex Luther, which that continues pretty far. So it's interesting that they, like, created the origin story. 

Mike: Yeah. They had like teenage Lex Luther show up in Smallville, right? 

Jessika: Yeah, yes, yes. Correct. 

Mike: I think he had hair 

Jessika: Back when he had hair, yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. And that's something that's continued up until modern times as well. Mark Waid's Birthright, I know, did that… where it basically revealed that Clark Kent had been for a short time friends with Lex. 

Jessika: Oh, wow. Of course. They had to be friends before they were enemies. Frenemies. There was also the the debut of the 30th century superhero team, the Legion of superheroes. 

As Superboy, continue to frequent the pages of anthology comics in April of 1949, he became the sixth superhero to get his own comic book. and was the first new superhero [00:13:00] title to succeed after World War II.

Mike: Oh, wow. That's crazy. 

Jessika: Right? 

Mike: I had no idea that there were only six superhero comics back then.

Jessika: Yeah. Not with our own titles. 

Mike: I mean, that's wild. 

Jessika: Totally. I didn't realize that either. 

Mike: yeah

Jessika: notable storylines from this namesake comic were intro to Ilana Lang and Pete Ross, the storyline of the first Bizarro and first appearances of Legion of superheroes characters, Mon-El and Ultra Boy. 

He also appeared in Legion of superheroes volume. One, which was printed as an anthology. Superboy itself continued until 1976 when the comic was renamed Superboy and the Legion of superheroes. Superboy was involved in the storyline until issue number 2 59. When he leaves after learning new information regarding the death of his parents.[00:14:00]  Dramatics.

Mike: Yeah, I haven't read a lot of those, but the idea is that he's displaced through time and he winds up hanging out with the Legion for a while. And then if I remember right, Supergirl winds up joining the Legion after a while, too. Basically, so they can have kind of a headliner.

Jessika: I smell them trying to fix a time continuum. But that's maybe I'm biased. Based on the research I've been doing,  

The series was then retitled Legion of superheroes volume two, and ended with issue number 354 and 1979. There was also a three-part mini series called Secrets of the Legion of Superheroes that was published in 1981. And despite the general decline of superhero readership, Superboys' popularity continued to grow and adventure comics and Superboy frequently sold over a million copies combined. 

Mike: That's an insane amount of comics these days. You know, back then that [00:15:00] was wild.

Jessika: I mean, it definitely groundbreaking for its time. I would say it was, it sounded like it was huge. The popularity may also have been due to the fact that Superboy was found on more than just comic book stands. He was also on the TV and in the movies, he appeared in a 26 minute movie called the Adventures of Superboy and multiple six-minute episodes airing with the New Adventures of Superman, which aired for 1966 to 70, the Superman Aquaman Hour of Adventure from 67 to 68 and the Batman Superman Hour 68 to 69. All of which were just continuations are within that same world as the initial comic book. 

Mike: Right. And those were all animated series too, I think, right? 

Jessika: they were. They were. And here's something fun for you to watch if you wanted to click on that link. 

Mike: Okay.  [Superboy INTRO AUDIO PLAYS] I love the image of like infant CBRE, boy, just lifting a piano. All right. 

Jessika: Very patriotic. 

Mike: Yeah. I love the fact that they have Krypto in there. Like I've always had a soft spot for Krypto. I am a little offended that his cowlick isn't in the shape of an S though. Come on guys. You know, this is an amateur hour. 

Jessika: Missed opportunity.

Mike: Right. But yeah, that was super cute. 

Jessika: Wasn't that fun? Yeah. So I can,  I could see kids get getting really excited about seeing that. And then they walk by the newsstand and they go, I just saw that on TV. 

Mike: yeah, exactly. 

Jessika: [00:17:00] So I think they had a good thing going with that at that point.

Mike: Oh, a hundred percent. So that was in the sixties, you said, right? 

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike: So that was right when television was becoming the dominant form of entertainment in the United States. I think by 1959 or 1960, it was something like 90% of households in America had televisions. And Saturday morning cartoons were starting to become a thing, which by the way, you guys should go back and listen to that episode about Saturday morning cartoons. It's our first episode. And we talk all about the evolution of that and how it connected with Comics.

Jessika: It was a fun one. So pretty much right after the Legion of Superheroes volume two ended, the New Adventures of Superboy was published in 1984. That had 54 published issues, 

Mike: Okay. That's a respectable run. 

Jessika: Yeah. It's not anything too wild. Yeah. In 1985, DC tried to tie up some of those pesky plot holes that we're going to discuss later [00:18:00] on, for sure, by creating a comic that told the story of Clark Kent's transitional years in college at Metropolis University, going from Superboy effectively to Superman. And while this was supposed to last for 12 installments, they only ended up publishing six, mostly due to the fact that Crisis on Infinite Earths was published 

Mike: I was about to ask. Yeah. 

Jessika: Yep. That actually featured the eraser of Superboy  and yet another attempt to correct a timeline. 

Mike: Well, Crisis on Infinite Earths was the first real attempt by DC to sit there and stream everything into a coherent timeline. And at the same time they had John Byrne's The Man of Steel, which came out I think right after. Crisis on infinite earths. And that also streamlined Superman's very convoluted history. The problem is is that by that point in time, you had almost 50 years of continuity, which made no fucking [00:19:00] sense.

Jessika: And we'll discuss it later, but there wasn't necessarily a need for continuity back in the day. I mean, they didn't have to have it. They were just there for like, we're doing this adventure. This is fun. They're going to enjoy it. And there wasn't a feeling that you had to necessarily link it with what came before it or what was going, coming after it in the same way that we want now as readers and as fans, we want everything to make sense because we want more of the story in that  way.

Mike: We want that overarching meta plot.

Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. So despite DC's attempt to write Superboy out of the universe completely, he appeared once again in Legion of Superheroes Volume Three, which ran from 86, 87 and while Crisis on Infinite Earths had erased Superboy. To some extent in other time, continuations, they now needed to recreate him in order to have a cohesive storyline for [00:20:00] Legion of Superheroes.

Mike: God.

Jessika: So they were like, what are we going to do? Oh, I know pocket universe. 

Mike: Why not? 

Jessika: Why not? So in this version, it's set in a pocket universe created by the villain Time Trapper. 

Mike: I think the Time Trapper… so the Time Trapper is like a villain who has had multiple identities. It’s the same villain ultimately, but it's different people wind up becoming the Time Trapper. And I think, Superboy became the time trapper point. 

Jessika: This doesn't surprise me at all. What the hell? 

Mike: Yeah, don't, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that it happened, uh, during one of their big, crossovers, 

Jessika: Oh, no,

Mike: Comic books are dumb and I love them. 

Jessika: I do, too. This is actually part of the  reason I really do like them. Because I like seeing all of these little differences. It doesn't make me mad. I just find it very funny. 

Mike: Yeah. so the Time Trapper created a pocket [00:21:00] universe and then they used him to bring Superboy back. 

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. And so he, but here's the funny part. He was really just like a sideline character in this. He came in and issued 24 and he was killed off in 38.

Mike: Superboy was going. Okay. I’m not going to ask question. 

Jessika: Yeah. Cause he had to like sacrifice himself to save the world. I mean,  that's, you know, common trend in these, right. 

Mike: Of course. 

Jessika: Yeah.  It was convenient. If not obvious. 

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: Superboy apparently would not, could not be stopped. As was apparent in 1988 with not only a comic publication, but also a TV appearance. Once again, this time live action. 

Mike: I remember that show. 

Jessika: Yeah, it was here and that was gone. 

Mike: It lasted for a couple of seasons, but I think they had a couple of different actors play Superboy.

Jessika: They did. Yeah. So it was four seasons and it started out starring John Hames Newton for season one [00:22:00] and then recast replaced for the remainder of the four seasons. So the rest of the three by Gerard Christopher. 

Mike: Oops. 

Jessika: So that was a 22 minute runtime, pretty normal for that time. but there again, it went along with the same year that the Superboy volume two hit shelves. You know, they did another one of those timing things thinking, Hey, it worked what? 30 years ago.  Let's do it again. 

Mike: Yeah. It's that whole transmedia thing.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. the show ultimately lasted until 1992, the same year a one-shot comic called the last Superboy was published. But that seemed to be the last dying ember from the fire that is Superboy, as we've talked about up until this point, except one thing. And I know that we want to talk about it a little bit, which is Smallville. And I know we've mentioned it, but I didn't watch that. Did you watch that show? 

Mike: Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? I, I was all over that show for the first few seasons.

Jessika: Okay. I [00:23:00] just really, it was just cause I had a crush on Kristin Kruek, but unfortunately she got involved with that horrific NXIVM cult. 

Mike: I thought It wasn't her. It  was the…

Jessika: It was Alison Mack, but  like, but  she was involved for a few years,  unfortunately. Big. Yikes. 

Mike: I don't know too much about it. I just know that Alison Mack was one of the big ringleaders for it and it was wild.

Jessika: She was, yeah. 

Mike: Like she, I think she left Smallville to like devote herself full-time to that cult. 

Jessika: That sounds right. Yeah, she was, she was definitely a big part of it. yeah, it was rough. I've been following it. 

Mike: I really liked Smallville when it first came out. I remember getting so excited when they had a little teaser ad for it where I think it's Krystin Kreuk is wandering through the darkness and she hears something and turns and then you see Tom Welling step out of the shadows and he says something along the lines “Oh, Hey, it's just me. It's it's Clark.” and then it just says Smallville, and I was like, oh mother fucker. That's amazing. [00:24:00] And yeah, it was, it was fine. It was very teen angsty, but they had a lot of deep cuts for comic fans. And, I think I stopped watching around season four  because it just started to, it felt like it really sort of jumped the shark, 

Jessika: Oh, okay. Yeah. I was going to, ask if it's  something I should rewatch. I don't know. Stuff from that. Timeframe is so cringey these days. 

Mike: A lot of it's cringey. I remember a whole thing with his heat vision was tied to like him being horny. 

Jessika: No. Why do you have to do that?  It's so unnecessary. 

Mike: But you know, what's funny is they actually brought Tom Welling back in the whole DC Arrowverse recently where they have a version of Lex Luther. Who's traveling the multi-verse and he shows up at, he shows up at the Kent farm and Tom welling is there. I thought it was just, it was great. It was, it was just, it was a really cute little nod.

Jessika: That is pretty cute. I do like that. 

Mike: And then he got all mad because he was trying to suck Superman's powers [00:25:00] away. And then it turns out Superman gave up his power so that he can have a family and a normal life. And then the now powerless Superman pops him in the nose. It was kind of good. 

Jessika: That is cute. 

Mike: I was fine with this. It was very, it was very wholesome.

Jessika: So there are other iterations of Superboy, but they're not necessarily Clark Kent and some of them are, but they kind of stray off into different timeline. And I could have gone down that rabbit hole, but

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: you know, I didn’t. Here we are. 

Mike: that's fine. 

Jessika: So I also know that I, more than hinted, we've talked about a little bit, uh, the continuity troubles that plagued Superboy. 

Mike: Right, 

Jessika: I, I gotta say some of these transgressions are just capital B A D bad. But they get a bit of a pass again, you know, like I said, because Comics at that point [00:26:00] really didn't hinge on a time continuum. 

Mike: Right. That wasn't a thing. 

Jessika: No, it wasn't. So, we got to give them a little bit of credit except when they actually started figuring it out and they still did absolutely nothing about it, which is what we're going to talk about.

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: Because after Superman, they kind of figured out, oh, people are wanting more of a storyline and we've already given Superman kind of a timeframe. And now this has to be Superboy. So it needs to be earlier. So they were like, Okay. Superboy is from the 30s. 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: But Superman at that time, I think was supposed to be set in the 60s or the 50s. And the math did not add 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: at all to get to that point. So right off the bat. You've just you're wrong about the dates. what's even more funny to me is that in the first iterations of the Superman comic, the origin story is always [00:27:00] that the first time he came to earth was when he came to metropolis, like as a full ass adult. 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: So what's, what's up, you know, so that's where it's like, all Right. this is already…

Mike: This is convoluted. Yeah.

Jessika: exactly. So you and I read a couple of comics from the time period of those original comics, and we read them from specifically from 1963. What I love about these is you could actually, at that, I don't, maybe they still do this. I haven't seen it yet in my Comics. You could write in and they would publish the comments and the editor …

Mike: they still do this. 

Jessika: Okay, cool. So the editor writes a comment back, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: So we have a few of these. 

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: And I would love for you to read them for us. 

Mike: Okay. So we have a few of these here. the first one says dear editor, since Superman was a Superboy before World War II and television sets, weren't perfected and [00:28:00] sold to the public until after World War II. How come you show TV roof antennas, and Superboy stories. Kevin Herron, Tiffin, Ohio. And the editor responded with you're right, Kevin, we're wrong. We made a booboo. Editor.

Jessika: Okay.

Mike: The next one is dear editor. How come in Superboy comics. You illustrate such modern inventions as a bombs, atomic subs, jet planes, television, et cetera, all devices, which weren't invented until 1945 for later. And which certainly weren't around when Superman was born, Ken parent Wheaton, Illinois. The response is historians refer to such inconsistency as anachronisms. They are a necessary form of literary license required to achieve dramatic effects. Movies exercise this option very often. For example, the first umbrella was invented in 1740 yet numerous period films devoted to the life in the middle ages have shown heroines protecting themselves from the sun with a parasol. Editor

Jessika: I love how he's getting like a little salt here with his answers. 

Mike: Just a little bit. [00:29:00] 

Jessika: He's like, but Webster's dictionary says… 

Mike: God. Yeah. I don't miss those days. These days. Usually when you see the letters section of a comic, it's usually people talking about how much something meant to them, or at least in the ones that I read it. It's always really nice. So. 

Jessika: That's sweet. 

Mike: All right. So the last one: dear editor in the recent story, the amazing bizarro you had Superboy dropping an atomic bomb on bizarro. How is this possible, as Superboys adventures. They're supposed to have happened before 1945 and scientists had not perfected the H-bomb until  1945. Steve Spangler, Sonoma, California, 

Jessika: Boom representation. That's right down the road from us. 

Mike: the response is “we goofed! From now on no more a bombs in Superboy. Editor.” 

Jessika: Well, that's easy. 

Mike: Oh, that's great. At some point it's like, come on guys, it's a comic book. 

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: I think it's, are you [00:30:00] really expecting the science fiction comic, starring an alien who just happens to look exactly like a human, but has more super powers than God is going to be historically and scientifically accurate all the time. Okay. Whatever. I don’t… 

Jessika: I know. I know. I know. I hear you. I do well. And what's funny too, is at one point, Lana Lang is in a beauty competition and it says 1952. 

Mike: Well, it's reassuring to know that nerds were always this nitpicky.

Jessika: Absolutely. That really is. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So the time in consistencies didn't end there. As I mentioned, there have been multiple timelines that have been created and destroyed to ensure some kind of consistency in the Superman universe. But whether or not that was actually a success is really anybody's opinion. It's up to the listener. [00:31:00] But if you're interested in finding out more about this travesty of a timeline, go check out that blog post I mentioned at the top of the episode, I'm on Captain Comics Presents, it's got a lot more examples of the inconsistencies from those OG comics.

Mike: Yeah. Well, okay. One thing I will note is that DC kind of figured this out recently where they, ran a series called doomsday clock, and it's Dr. Manhattan from the Watchman universe with Superman. And the very end of it is revealing that there is now a “metaverse” in DC. Where it's like, oh yeah.

So Superman arrived in the 30s and started being a superhero, you know? And then also he also arrived in the 60s and then he also arrived in the 80s and so on and so forth. And so it,  it sort of makes sense of that for those people who care.

Jessika: Well, and it's like the same kind of Marvel multi-verse that we have going on with that, with the  Spider-Man is pointing to each other. 

Mike: Yeah. It [00:32:00] basically, it takes the concept of a multi-verse and then it adds another layer and it does it in a way that feels, hm, I'm not going to say plausible, but it just, it kind of works and, you know, I actually liked it, but that's just me.

Jessika: Yeah. you know what, and what's funny about Superman is I don't like Superman, so it's funny that we're doing this whole episode. I just thought it, was interesting. These Superboy comics when I saw them, well and I picked them up because like, honestly, like the titles were horrific and I will have some very liberal things to say about them, but yes, I, you know, but honestly, what's very funny, even though I hate Superman, I don't know what it was about the Superman symbol that I used to love.  And I didn't read the comics. I'd watch the show from the eighties. And I'd seen the Christopher Reeves movies. We loved those. But other than that, I wasn't like huge in the Superman, but if I had gotten a tattoo, when I was 18 years old, it would have been a Superman symbol. So I'm very glad my mom never, she never [00:33:00] listens to this. So she will never know that I'm confessing that, she talked me out of making a very bad tattoo decision because she doesn't need any more gloating rights, 

Mike: Yeah. I don't know. I kind of viewed him like Captain America, where I thought he was really boring. And then I realized that if you find the right writer, Superman really, really works. I've come to really enjoy a lot of Superman stories, but you know, it depends. 

Jessika: And I think you're right. That I, I probably just haven't found the right writer or the right style. And I did recently start do I start birthright? I started something recently.   

Mike: I think it was  Birthright, based on our conversations.

Jessika: yeah. So I will get back into that at some point in time. I just have such a stack now will obsessed. Oh no.

Mike: Oh no, 

Jessika: Oh, no. more Comics.

So Mike, you and I read a couple of these issues that I found at that estate sale. That was Superboy boys. Numbers, 109 [00:34:00] and 110. So do you want to recap 109 us? 

Mike: Yeah. Okay. You've mentioned that these are anthology comics and so Superboy at this point in time, apparently was having two or three storylines per issue. based on the two that we read, each one had two different stories in it.  Superboy 109 has the first story is the Super Youth of Brozz. The title story about the rival super dogs doesn't show up until later, which that always surprises me, when the cover action isn't the first story and everything else is in a backup, but whatever. 

Jessika: It's a little confusing. 

Mike: the Super Youth of Brozz is about how a young Clark Kent winds up sort of becoming friends with another teenage orphan in Smallville named Fred who's, quote, timid that's his like defining character trait. That's all that anybody used to describe him. And he gets picked on by the towns in crowd of teenagers. It's revealed that he lives in the [00:35:00] Smallville orphanage, which okay.

He literally walks back to the orphanage and then Superboys spies on him and he's crying because he overheard people talking about how they didn't want to adopt him  because he was too much of a wimp I'm just like, oh, okay. 

Jessika: Thanks for being super toxic Superboy. That's so great. 

Mike: Superboy winds up deciding to give him confidence. And so he takes him to a planet called Brozz where Fred gains super powers from the atmosphere. And then Superboy actually loses his overtime for reasons that are not really well explained because you know, Superboy, he gets his powers from the yellow sun. And then later on, he gets his powers back sort of from the little spacecraft that they brought Fred over in, because it had some remnants of Earth's atmosphere, which that's not how science works. I was a history major and even I can tell you that. Superboy has this whole convoluted plot about how if he can get Fred to have super power’s he’ll gain confidence, which Fred sort of does. He eventually saves Superboy's life and then decides to stay on the planet and be a superhero. And he gets offered to be adopted, but he declines the offer for some bizarre reason, something about like, you know, basically he doesn't want to put his, foster parents at risk. And Superboy heads home to earth and has a final thought about how he wouldn't be the person he was, if it hadn't been for the Kents. The end.

Jessika: Yeah. Yup. 

Mike: Yep. But the title story, which is the Super Dog That Replaced Krypto is basically at some point, Superboy rescues a dog named Swifty, which looks like a Greyhound. Swifty winds up months later, tracking down Superboy in Smallville, which means that Superboy didn't [00:37:00] even drop this dog off at a shelter. Apparently he just got him out of harm's way and then just left him. So strike one, Supes. 

Jessika: Yeah. It's not. 

Mike: Then Superboy winds up temporarily granting Swifty the same powers that Krypto has. And then it seems like he's testing them out, but it doesn't quite work out that way. Swifty loses his powers and then he’s, again, I guess, left alone. He's just as far as I can tell, he's a homeless dog in Smallville.

Jessika: Yeah. There's  a lot of orphans in the story. 

Mike: after his powers fade some villains who were trapped in the Phantom zone, but crossover and are sort of the Phantom zone wind up trying to take mental control of Superboy and Krypto, they don't have any luck. They are able to influence Swifty. And then they guide him through a process that grants him super powers. And then I think it also makes them evil, but it's not really well explained. 

Jessika: Oh, it's because the Phantoms were  influencing him. [00:38:00]  And so their intentions were like his intention. So  because they had negative vibes against Superboy. That's what I got out of it, but it's, it's really vague. 

Mike: Super vague.  Superboy decides to randomly hold a series of tests for Swifty and Krypto to be the new super dog. And like, he does this as opposed to like, just like letting  them both help him out.

Jessika: that's what I'm saying. Like, it wasn't even to like, be the next super dog. It was like to  go be the ambassador on this trip 

Mike: Oh, is that it? Okay. 

Jessika: yeah. And then , why wouldn't  you want like an entourage of fucking, like super dogs with you? Why would you two super dogs is way better than one super dog. Like, I don't know what the fuck his problem  was

Mike: 100%. So anyway, the Phantom zone criminals helps Swifty, win the contest, Swifty becomes the super [00:39:00] dog for at least this instance. And then he leads both Krypto and Superboy into a kryptonite death trap. Like there's literally a spring that like hurls kryptonite at them. And then at the last second Krypto manages to blast Swifty with the duplicate Ray, which creates a bizarro Swifty, who's good as opposed to the original version. Superboy comes up with a potion or, sorry, the Bizarro Swifty saves them. And then Superboy comes up with a potion that strip Swifty’s powers and restores his good nature. And then he creates a collar that repels the Phantom zone ghosts so they can't control the dog again. And that's it like, Swifty’s apparently the sad homeless dog in Smallville who just gets sad every time that he sees Superboy and Krypto fly by. And he thinks about how he wants to be Superboys' dog again.

Jessika: It's really depressing. And I would never do that to Carl for the record. I would never. Okay. 

Mike: I mean, [00:40:00] yeah, this, this issue definitely rubbed me the wrong way. Just for that, where I'm like, God, Superboy. it couldn't even find a home for the dog who tracked you down across the country and just wanted to be your friend.

Jessika: You're fucking Superboy have two fucking dogs. Like, I don't know how difficult this is. Like, well, where Martha. Martha is like, no, we've already gotten one super dog in the house. 

Mike: Yeah, right. 

Jessika: No, this one's just normal, now! I swear.

Mike: between the two of us, we have four dogs. So, I  mean, we're definitely the wrong audience for this,

Jessika: for sure. And I bought this comic for the fact that there were like super dogs on there. I got very excited. 

Mike: yeah. And the thing is, is that there's a whole menagerie, a super pets like you eventually get like Comet the super horse. Like it's no, there, there was a monkey. There was, I think, I think it was Streaky the super cat too. 

Jessika: Oh, no. 

Mike: It's not like, you know, [00:41:00] there wasn't a whole collection of super pets. But whatever. 

Jessika: Yeah. What did you think of this since you haven't told, since you haven’t started telling me already.

Mike: It reminded me that Superman and Superboy stories from this era just a lot of times don't make any sense.  I have a collection from the late eighties called the Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told, and It's got stories from the forties to the eighties and even those early great stories, in quotes, they're pretty out there. And neither of these stories are anywhere close to what's contained in that book. I don't know. My biggest complaint is how Superboys' logic is always terrible. Like why does Fred need to be made into another version of the Superboy in order to gain confidence? Why not just help them with the core issue, which is that nobody wants to adopt them  from the Smallville orphanage, which again, lawl.

Jessika: Yeah. Like what does it have two orphans in there? 

Mike: It just, it seems like helping them find a [00:42:00] family would do a lot more good. And likewise, why not just adopt Swifty too? Like  it's shitty and it's dumb, but all of this reminded me of the site called Super Dickery, which I showed you. 

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike: It was the site that's originally focused on the absolute insanity of Superman comic covers. So many of these comics would feature things like Superman, just fucking over his friends. That was a repeated theme for years. There's one where he has Lois lane strapped to the grill of a truck and he's flying out after he drove it off a cliff. And just saying something to the effect “I’ll see you later, Lois.”

Jessika: Holy shit. 

Mike: And there's another one where Aquaman, Jimmy Olsen are dying of thirst in the desert and Superman's just lording over them with this pitcher of water. the site was around at least in 2005, which is when I first came across it. It's kind of defunct. Now. I don't think has been updated for a couple of years, but you can go back on archive.org and just scroll through all these things. The [00:43:00] tagline was Superman's a Dick and here's the evidence and it's great. Like that is a way to kill an afternoon. Let me tell ya.

Jessika: Oh, I definitely checked out a few of those today and I was  rolling. Rolling. He definitely came off  as an asshole in this comic. Like, no question, no question.  You know, what makes me the most mad is that he has the ability to give Swifty super powers. He has the ability to make both dogs talk. 

Mike: Oh my God. Yeah.

Jessika: What the fuck are you doing? 

Mike: there was a cover on Super Dickery where it's young Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne, and they've created a computer that lets them see the future and like, Hey, we're going to grow up to be crime fighters and superheroes. So we're going to be best friends. It's like cool. You know, what also would be useful? I don't know. Maybe telling Bruce Wayne that his parents are going to get murdered and it can be avoided. 

Jessika: Seriously. Holy shit. Oh my God. Yeah. But then he wouldn't have his [00:44:00] homie. Superboy’s  just all in it for himself. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And like, why does he just have something lying around the  has fandoms as I can get out? Why does he have that? Doesn't make any sense.

Mike: We don't have another two hours to discuss the Phantom Zone.

Jessika: Kal-El you silly boy. So let's, let's move on to the other comic we read, which, uh, we're just be just as angry about, by the way. Spoiler case you were wondering. So what happened in issue? Number 110? Cause I did get sequential ones, which is great, kind of. 

Mike: Right. Okay. So again, we have two stores. We have the Surrender of Superboy and the runt of steel, the surrender of supervise story is the one that we actually get on the cover. It's Superboy in Krypto losing a tug of war match to some old man. And we're basically told, well, you won't believe who the old man is. In the Surrender of Superboy, Clark [00:45:00] Kent, and Lana Lang traveled to South America to accompany her, I guess he's a college professor, dad on an archeological dig. One of the flowers recovered is this legendary hate flower, which causes any living, being that smells it to hate the first human they see after smelling it. They're like very specific that it's, you will hate the first human.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: When they get back to Smallville, Lana smells the hate flower by accident. She sees Superboy flying outside and then dun, dun dunnnn winds up developing an intense hatred for the boy of steel. She grabs. I think it's like, it’s… do we ever get a name for this thing? It's like a devil's mask?

Jessika: I think she just calls it devil's mask. Cause it's a devil's witch mask or something like that on the wall. It's very vague again. 

Mike: So she's in this museum, she grabs this thing off the wall because there's no fucking security anywhere. And it specifically says what it does, where it's says the person who wears this can summon souls , or spirits from the past and have them obey them for an hour. And then she [00:46:00] starts using it to cause trouble. Sir Lancelot and then George Washington are her first minions, but they refuse to help because they claim that they've heard about Superboy’s heroic  deeds and even in the past, which

Jessika: No, no, no, It's not a thing. No. 

Mike: I just, I can't, man, it's so dumb.

Jessika: When I read that, I was like, what, what is actually going on right now? I literally stopped reading for a few minutes. 

Mike: Everything about the story it feels like monkeys at a typewriter. 

Jessika: Yes, 

Mike: So then she summons Merlin to humiliate Superboy at this super strength exhibition that he's doing in order to benefit the old folks home and Merlin, it turns out is the old man who beats him in the tug of war on the cover. Which by the way, this is like three panels in the comic. And it's not that big a deal. 

Jessika: it's really not. 

Mike: yeah, after that she summons Edgar Allen Poe and [00:47:00] Sherlock Holmes. She says they're the two greatest detective minds of the past. So they help her solve a jewel highs that Superboy can't and then she framed Superboy by having Hercules, Samson, and Atlas tear apart the Smallville Scientific Institute. Um, let's see, she summons Venus, Helen of Troy, and Juliet to basically seduce Superboy. And then she spurns him at a dance. And also I'm sorry, but really? JULIET? Like, come on.

Jessika: Juliet was a child who fell into a situation and was a tragic  figure. 

Mike: Juliet was a stupid teenager. Like, I can't, I can't even,  I'm sorry. 

Jessika: She probably had acne and Superboy definitely had that hair where it was brushed forward and then spiked up in the front.

Mike: Yep. 

Jessika: Absolutely. Yep. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Fuckin’ assholes. All of them,

Mike: So she [00:48:00] spurns them at this dance and her dad gets mad at her. He's like, I heard you were very rude to Superboy. 

Jessika: Which by the way, the fact that he wears that fucking suit to every occasion, like,  come on, dude. 

Mike: I just love that idea.

Jessika: Can you have like a literal suit, like, a super suit. That actually looks nice? 

Mike: Just get something, like, get a nice Navy blue, kind of slim fitting suits have an Ascot popping out with your Superman logo.   All the girls would be all over you. It'd be great.

Jessika: Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine the Kent’s first trip to a fancy restaurant where they have to like, get the borrow jacket, like the  loaner jacket from the restaurant, because he's wearing his stupid ass suit and they're  like, Oh, Sir, excuse me. 

Mike: He's just walking around with his Cape, sticking out from under the jacket. I would read that  comic. 

Jessika: I would too. [00:49:00] 

Mike: Anyway. So finally Lana decides to pull Jor-El, Superboy's dad from the past, in order to help her discover Superboys' secret identity. Instead of, I don't know, reuniting Jor-El with his son who he never got to see, but whatever. Okay. Jor-El gives you this device that's supposed to detect Kryptonians. It leads her to a closet where Krypto the Superdawg is Krypto shakes himself, and basically gives off a bunch of dust. Actually counteracts the flowers’ hate pollen. And it turns out that Superboy and Lana’s dad switched the mask with a dummy, once they realized what was going on and then her dad disguised himself as GRL and then everything just  goes back to normal and nothing matters.

Jessika: Yeah, we're again, they have access to these devices that are like powerful and they like have instructions on the wall, but don't use them. Like he literally says to his daughter at one point like, oh, well stay away from the superstition side of things. It's quite dangerous. And she's like, oh, what's that?[00:50:00]  Let me check out this mask. So fricking ridiculous. 

Mike: So then we get the second story, which is the Super Runt of Steel, which is about a criminal named Peewee Reagan, who we don't know who this dude is, but he shows up at this dilapidated house, he pays some amoral super scientist to grant him super powers. Peewee goes on a crime spree that even Superboy can't stop because Superboys' powers are weirdly fading for no real reason. Peewee flies away to a distant planet because he spotted treasure inside it. He gets to the planet, he wrecks a bunch of the alien robots that are there and then goes inside this vault that's full of space gems and minerals, and he winds up screaming in pain. Superboy finds out the scientist it turns out leached his powers and transfer them over to Peewee. And he's able to track the criminal to the aforementioned planet. And it turns out Peewee died because the vault also contained kryptonite and then Superboy [00:51:00] buries Peewee and flies away the end.

Jessika: Because he somehow gets his powers back by just being around him. It was weird. 

Mike: Everything about this issue just made me roll my eyes. And a lot of the stories from this era, if you go back and read a lot of these things, they had those kinds of surprise endings. That just feel so dumb these days. Like it was that weird, ironic twist. They're not really ironic because they don't really make a lot of sense. 

Jessika: Yeah, they're just kind of like a left field thought. 

Mike: Yeah, there's a lot that just doesn't work. And it's like if you go down this very specific logic train that these writers force you along, it's like, you know, the whole thing. Having Lana's dad disguise himself as Jor-El, like Superboy, just, knew that this was going to be the next step.

You're like, all right. Well, I don't know, and then also, I'm sorry. But she's supposed to be calling all of these characters from history, all these spirits or people from history and then it's gods and fictitious characters like [00:52:00] Lancelot and Juliet and uh, whatever.

Jessika: No, they were really contrived figures. I mean, even when they had real people in there, they weren't used to their purpose. 

Mike: No, and it's one of those things where you read it and you're like, this is just, this is so dumb. Oh, it's Samson and Hercules. Okay. Whatever, why not? Random characters from the Bible and Greek mythology. Why not?

Jessika: Dude, where do I even start on this issue though?  They had so many problems. The beginning, when the scientists negate the word of the locals as superstition, even though it actually did have dangerous poisonous properties to it. They're like, oh, it's just a myth. 

Mike: Because there's a whole thing where one of the boroughs winds up attacking a guide and then when they sit there and say, oh, it must have like gotten near the hade flower and they're like, oh no, it just got bit by a fly. All right. 

Jessika: Yeah. And the scientists are like, I mean, gosh, darn. How big of a [00:53:00] supremacist asshole do you have to be to not trust the people who live there to know anything about the plants that they have been living with their whole lives. I truly don't understand that. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Then the scientists were like, oh, woopsie, Daisy. I guess they were right. Chuckle, chuckle.

Mike: This was also still a period in time where anyone who was not white, especially native populations were viewed with a healthy degree of just kind of, well, like you said, it like supremacy. Like if you go back and read those old Tintin books, woof. 

Jessika: Oh,  yeah. I've read someof those in the original French and they’re... Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. And if you go back and read those and then like up until really, I want to say the 70s or 80s was one thing started to get a little bit better, but even mainstream in the 60s were still pretty awful when it came to depicting people who weren't [00:54:00] white.

Jessika: Yeah. There was that whole segregation thing. You know, just that. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Yeah, I, it was really gross when the quote unquote historical women came to give her beauty advice so that she could do seduce Superboy, like that was so contrived and odd and sexist and strange, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Or the part where Superboy is not only supposed to be earning money for an old person's home. He's also making agist jokes about the quote unquote old man that ends up beating him. Both him and his dog, a tug of war. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: But  then the comic itself is so obviously like they so obviously made it agistly clear that this man only be Superboy because he was Merlin, the wizard, which yikes guys,  I know people way older than me that could kick my ass at most anything. So that's pretty [00:55:00] ridiculous. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: Oh. Or the fact that the little guys or men that are like smaller and stature or timid, they are constantly the ones that need quote, unquote saving by Superboy in these really odd, like vague ways. Like they need to get physical strength to be appreciated.  And it's super toxic. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, that kind of hinges on the old ideas of masculinity as well.

Jessika: Oh, and I'm sorry, why Lana’s dad keeping again, keeping legit magic items where people can access them. It just, I can not get past that because they just have all this shit sitting around where people are like, oh, let me touch it.

Mike: look, here's the thing, like gun control, wasn't a thing back then you think they're going to seriously guard supernatural weapons of destruction.

Jessika: that is a valid point. That is so valid.  at least he wasn't mistreating his dog in this issue, I guess. 

Mike: I guess. I don't know. He locked him in the closet for a few hours. 

Jessika: Shit. That's right. [00:56:00] Nevermind. Fuck. So that wraps up our Superboy conversation.  Let's move on to our brain wrinkles. And this is the one thing comics are comics adjacent that's just been rattling around in your brain. Since the last time we talked. 

Mike: Yeah. So I was going to talk about free comic book day and how I was originally pretty excited about it. But now, we're recording this a couple of weeks before free comic book day is going to happen. And we are still in the middle of a pandemic when we record this, the Delta strain has started to rear its ugly head and lead to cases spiking all over the place, including here in the Bay Area. So, As someone who has immunocompromised kids who are too young to get the vaccine still, we're not going to be able to participate. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I think I'm instead going to talk about The Suicide Squad and actually how I'm really [00:57:00] excited about that movie. And it's getting rave reviews and it's opening this week on HBO max and in theaters.

And then, because people can't leave shit well, enough alone, David Ayer, the director of the original Suicide Squad movie talked about how this one is great, but then he proceeded to shit all over Warner Brothers and talked about how the version of just Suicide Squad that got released back in 2016, was not his version of the film and how it's terrible. And he wants, vindication now. And I just, I can't go through another Snyder Cut. I just, I don't  have…

Jessika: Alright like, you know, at least, okay. At least it's not the Justice League.  At least it's Suicide Squad, 

Mike: But like the Snyder Cut almost broke me.

Jessika: No, I hear you. I already don't like, I already wasn't like on board and I had to watch like so much Justice League that weekend. 

Mike: I remember. 

Jessika: Then I had prequel films I had to [00:58:00] watch. No, I don't want to do this again. I don’t.

Mike: I can’t.  I am happy to talk about Suicide Squad. And I'm pretty sure there'll be jazzed up to talk about it after this movie. But I just, I can't bring myself to care about these auteur directors who are just… when I was working in the video games industry, we had this term that we used for certain people who were on the development side, who were all about their vision and how, they wouldn't compromise anything. And we, we just refer to them as the genius babies, because they would have these ungodly meltdowns. I can't bring myself to just, I can't bring myself to care about another genius baby throwing a temper tantrum.

Jessika: I don't want it. 

Mike: How about you?  What is, uh, what is sitting in your head these days?

Jessika: I've been thinking a lot about representation in the media, including comic books. [00:59:00] And that's partially because we've been reading all these old comics where we don't see a lot of different representation. Versus the comics that I'm drawn to, which are full of representation, because that's what I prefer to read.

I want to see everyone and it's been really nice to read destiny, New York and some of these other recent comics that actually show different types of bodies, different skin tones, different sexualities and genders. But I think there's so much more that we need to do, and that can be done to add and continue to build upon that representation.

Like just in general, it's 2021. And we're still shaming people for being a certain size and, you know, airbrushing people who are already considered to be the epitome of beauty in our society. Like what is it going to take for us to allow people to just exist as we are. I mean, you know, besides the whole capitalist bullshit [01:00:00] game, telling women, they need more and more products to achieve beauty. But aside from that, but it's giving me, it's definitely making me feel better to see all of the representation, but there, again, it just reminds me that we need more.

Mike: I was gonna say, it’s that reminder of we've come a long way, but we need to go further.

Jessika: Yep. It is. It is. You had mentioned, your inability to go to free comics day. and I feel like there are probably a lot of people who had a really difficult time getting anywhere. To go to something like that, you know? And so thinking about accessibility in that way of, what about those readers? Like what are we doing about them? So you know, it's just something I think about I've worked at social services too. I mean, I'm just, I'm a bleeding heart, but we need people like me or else, I don't know, get rid of that. We don't need people like me. So that's, that's, what's been rattling for me. [01:01:00] It's just more of a continuous disappointed buzz in my brain that we don't respect all people. 

Mike: Yeah. Well, we do on this podcast. 

Jessika: So on that uplifting note, that's it for today, but stay tuned for another episode in two weeks and until then we'll see it in the stacks. 

Mike: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us. So text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazier and Mike Thompson, written by Jessika Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from premium beat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by. Look, mom draws on Instagram.[01:02:00] 

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to Tencent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencent akes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is Tencenttakes. Jessika is Jessika with us, and Jessika is spelled with a K and I am Vansau: V A N S A U

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen. 

Mike: Stay safe out there. 

Jessika: And support your local comic shop 

. 

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries! We had a ton of fun reading this week's selections: Jessika brought a DND-inspired series called The Last Session (ahem) to the table and Mike discovered a late 90s dark fantasy series called... wait for it... Hellcop. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

"March" Movie Madness part 3 (of 3)! For our final Justice League movie discussion, we go outside the DCEU and discuss two movies dealing with Wonder Woman's origins in very different ways. 

Professor Marston and the Wonder Women tells the story of Wonder Woman's creation and also looks at the unconventional lives of her creators. Meanwhile, the 2009 animated film provides a more modern take with an all-star vocal cast. 

Join us as we go down the rabbit hole that is Wonder Woman's history and discuss kink, polyamory, and BDSM. And -per usual- we swear a lot, too.

Have questions/comments/concerns? Hit us up: tencenttakes@gmail.com

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Jessika: I hope you realize what extremely heavy California accents we have. I hope you understand when the feedback comes in, that will be part of it! Hello and welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we correct your comic misconceptions. One issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I am joined by my cohost, the royal robot, Mike Thompson. Mike: That's right. All my circuits are platinum or I don't know. Gold, gold plated, something. Jessika: Oh, gold plated. You've got like diamond and crusted things. They also serve a purpose being one of the sharpest items or Mike: Yeah I it. Thank you for that intro. Jessika: Of course. Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Now, today we're discussing the final installment of our "March" movie madness. Now I'm throwing heavy quotes around March movie madness because it is actually April. Mike: It's almost tax day at this point. Jessika: It's almost tax day. So we bled out a little bit, but we're trying to do these bi-weekly we got a little ahead of ourselves because we got so excited just to be talking about these things that we did a few more than we really anticipated in March, I would say to our listeners benefit. Mike: Yeah, sure. I concur. Jessika: So we are doing a deep dive into Wonder Woman's origins today. Now I'm not just talking about the origins of the character, but also of their creator and the reasons and motivations that drove this comic into existence. I'm excited about this. Mike: I am too. These movies were really pleasant surprises for different reasons. Jessika: I will agree with that wholeheartedly. Now, before we get into that, though. We love to do that whole one cool thing you've read or watched lately. And Mike, let's go ahead and start with you. Mike: Yeah. So I've been consuming a lot of Star Trek lately. I really enjoy the franchise in general, but I have this deep abiding passion for Deep Space Nine because my great uncle who was essentially my grandfather when I was growing up , we used to watch the show together every Sunday when we would go over to their house for dinner. So like, that was just this wonderful bonding activity with this guy who used to be a dive bomber in World War II and his very nerdy little 11-year-old nephew. I have these very treasured memories and I have the entire series on DVD of Deep Space Nine, which I will be buried with by the way. But both the entire series and the recent documentary about the show is on Amazon Prime. So I've been rewatching all of that, and I've been actually rereading some of the comics and then last week Star Trek Legends came out on a Apple Arcade and... it's fine. It's nothing special, but it's a fun distraction if you're a Trekkie who wants to just mash it up all the various characters from the different series together. So I currently have a away team with characters from the Next Generation and then Discovery and then the original series all together. And it's dumb, but it's fun. But this has led me down this rabbit hole, and I think that we should probably wind up doing an episode on Star Trek history in comics and how it actually helped shape the MCU as we know it. Jessika: I would love that. That sounds like so much fun. And I love Star Trek as well. I used to watch Star Trek with my dad. We were a Next Gen family. So I, you know, next gen and Riker jumping over chairs is like near and dear to my heart. Mike: I'm really bummed that that is not an animation and Star Trek Legends. It really makes me so grumpy. Jessika: What a miss. Such a missed opportunity Mike: What about you? What have you been reading or watching lately? Jessika: So I've been casually reading through a reprint of Giant-Size X-Men from 1975, and I say casually just kind of every once in a while I'll pick it up and I'll read through a few pages and be like, "Oh that was fun." And kind of put it back down again between whatever I'm doing. So of course you know they're they're retro comics and you know things are going to... it's me: Things are going to rub me the wrong way about some of the retro comics. Mike: A comic that's almost 40 years old possibly having some problematic elements to it? Go on. Jessika: Yeah no I try to set aside a lot of that but it is quite difficult with my very outspoken mind of mine. But one scene that really bothered me was from Storm's introduction. Professor X seeks out Storm in her native Kenya where she's legitimately saving the countryside by using her weather powers to get rid of drought. Mike: Right Jessika: But Professor X has the audacity to show up and say, "nah listen: Like I know you're helping quote unquote helping people here but I also need your help. And I'm much more important, let's be real. It's just a whole bag of yikes. Mike: Yeah I mean what year did giant size X-Men come out? Was that 75? Jessika: It was 75. Mhm. Mike: Yeah... That was the same year that we got Lois Lane turning black for a literal white savior piece of journalism. Racial sensitivity was not really a thing back then Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I and I do try to put myself into that mindset It's just so cringey though in this day and age to see things like that Mike: Yeah. Jessika: What I do like about it that everybody is so salty to one another. Like so salty. They're so sassy to one another. Every other page has just a roast battle between the members of the X-Men where they're like "yeah, One Eye" like Mike: I think I read a reprint of that when I was like 12 or 13 but I haven't re-read it at all recently. So I'll have to go back and check that out Jessika: I'll throw it your way. You can borrow it. It's fun. Well let's get into the meat of our episode and this was definitely a meaty topic. And I know I told you a little bit earlier I love me a good rabbit hole. Love jumping just right into them right off the top I read –more like I listened to but I mean it was a lot of time spent– three different audio books on the topic. Mike: Yeah no that's awesome I'm so excited to hear about all of Jessika: this. And the hard part then was whittling down what information I really wanted to give you. I highly recommend all of these resources and I really want to just throw them out at the top We will also throw them into the show notes. But I highly recommend -if you're interested in this topic- go read more about this because I'm not even touching the surface of these books. They are amazing. So the first one that I read was it was actually an article from smithsonian.com titled "the surprising origin story of Wonder Woman" by Jill LePore which led me to Jill LePore's larger book or I would say more extended book called The Secret History of Wonder Woman. It was also read by the author, so if you're a book on tape person, highly recommend listening to it. She's one of those people who really keeps your attention and she doesn't have that kind of drowsy lilt that some people do while they're reading, So I definitely I was able to stay really focused on it. And the last one was Wonder Woman Psychology by Trina Robbins and that had a couple of different narrators but that one was also very interesting and talked about all of the different aspects of the time and the different parts of psychology and gets more into because you know spoiler alert the author was a psychologist It does get deeper into that whole aspect of the reasons behind the comic in that way. Mike: That's a really cool and I'm really excited to hear everything that you learned because this is a topic that I had a vague awareness of but I have tried to stay as in the dark as possible for this episode because I'm really excited to learn from you about this Jessika: Let's all go on a learning journey together, Folks. What do you say. Mike: Yeah. Hop on the magic school bus kids. Jessika: Here we go. Mike: We're going to hang out with Goth Miss Frizzle. Jessika: Oh my gosh I know I'm wearing all black today and I have high bun. Very McGonigal right now. Mr Porter Um so Diana Prince is the secret identity of Wonder Woman but did you know that the creator of Wonder Woman had a secret identity himself? Well, today we're going to be discussing the creator of Wonder Woman, Charles Milton... or should I say William Moulton Marston. Marston's name, like his stories, were an amalgamation of fact and fiction his middle name mixed with that If max gains one of the co-founders of All-Star Comics and later DC, which stands for Detective Comics -fun fact: I didn't know that- where Wonder Woman made her debut. But Marston was hiding more than just a name. He had an entire life that he kept hidden from the world. William Moulton Marston was born in Massachusetts in May of 1893 to Frederick William Marston and Annie Marston. They bestowed upon him his mother's maiden name molten as a middle name, and as I've mentioned the last name he later uses as his nom du plume. By all accounts he seemed to have a easy childhood though I did hear reports that he was in the military for a stint I should say acting as a psychologist... I believe that was after his Harvard education, though He was accepted to Harvard for his advanced education and he eventually graduated and became a professor of psychology. While attending Harvard, Marston had many interests. One of them being the intelligent and motivated Elizabeth Holloway, whom he would later marry and who had been taking courses in one of the lesser quote unquote lesser universities that you know allowed women at that time. Mike: That was pretty standard at the time, right? Higher education for women was a new thing that was very looked down upon? Jessika: Oh it was incredibly new. This was the early 1900s. We're talking before 1910. That area. Women didn't have the right to vote yet which we definitely will get into. Didn't have the right to vote until 1920. That was a good few years before that point So the schools had the male schools would have a sister school basically or a lesser school . And for Harvard that was Radcliffe, which is where Holloway went And this was considered again the sister school But of course didn't have the same name and you didn't get the same degree .You still graduated from Radcliffe and women really didn't have the option to go down that actual Harvard route, which of course didn't give them an edge at all No edge Thanks a lot. Mike: Yeah what did you use a degree for back then? Jessika: I mean, nothing. What are you going to do with this degree in your home, in the kitchen? The oven doesn't need you to have a degree. It's just so gross. Mike: It's not a masters in baking roasts, Linda Jessika: And how they wished it were. You would think. Harvard acted like that. It was rough. She did however finish her education and become an lawyer with her degree being issued from Radcliffe despite petitioning multiple times to get a Harvard degree, since she was taking the same classes, they were the same classes. Mike: With the same professors, too, right? Jessika: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The class just had women in it instead of men That was the only difference. During college she and Marston were inseparable. One of the biographies I read stated that there was this rule that a woman could not walk or ride unaccompanied with a man However Holloway thought that was a completely stupid rule and just didn't follow it, which I love. She's like, "fuck that." Mike: That's so good. Jessika: And everything else I read about her said "fuck the rules, I do what I want." Which is so amazing for a woman in the early 1900s. I mean it's kind of an interesting concept right now let alone the 1900s. Mike: Yeah... we still have all of these societal norms that women are not supposed to go against. Jessika: Yeah. So Marston varied interests also included a search for "the truth." Quote unquote the truth. This was partially inspire Now part of what he invented I should say was inspired by an observation by Holloway that when she got mad or excited her blood pressure seemed to climb. And from that Marston created the earliest version of what we now know as the lie detector test or polygraph. The test is we know it now measures more than just blood pressure which was really the only thing he was checking on. Blood pressure in and of itself isn't going to tell you everything that you quote unquote need to know for a lie detector to be effective. That being said it's also mostly an admissible as we know it now in the US court of laws depending on the place and both parties have to agree to have it be accepted into the court case which I found I didn't know that. Yeah! Mike: I knew that growing up lie detector tests were considered to be kind of this infallible thing. And then it was like well you know you can sort of get around it by all these old wives tales of like you know you put a tack in your shoe and you press your toe against it and the pain messes up the results. And then later on I found out that they're not really great, they're not really admissible anymore but I didn't know that because I know that a lot of law enforcement still loves to rely on it. Jessika: Yeah and I think about the if you think about when you're nervous you can have a lot of different reasons for being nervous. Not because you're lying, necessarily. You could be a bad test taker and then you suddenly look like a guilty party It could be as that. Mike: I'm just thinking about all the times that I had to give public speeches. Either class presentations or later on when I was a journalist and I was moderating panels. Every time my pulse would be through the roof. Jessika: Same. Now can you imagine being somebody who is of an oppressed or a minority population who's being put into a situation where they have people of power who have them in a room and they have control and that is a really scary thing. Mike: Yeah, that sounds like a nightmare scenario. Jessika: I can imagine my heart rate going up in that situation, so having that be the measure doesn't seem like the best of ideas In my opinion. That being said, it does seem to be admissible in the court of Steve Wilkos and other daytime television shows. Mike, tell me the truth: Do you or have you ever watched those daytime shows like Maury or Jerry Springer or Steve Wilkos? Mike: Yeah, so... Not only did I watch Maury during the daytime when I was just working on stuff at school and I wanted something on in the background, but I was a staff photographer for a newspaper during a celebrity golf tournament and Maury Povich was one of the celebrity golfers. He was really nice I wound up chatting with him for a minute while he was waiting for his turn at golf. I really feel like I missed an opportunity to have him record saying that I was not the father because that was the big thing that he was doing back then was all those paternity tests. Jessika: You say that like he's not still doing that. Mike: I don't know, does he still have show? I don't have TV anymore Jessika: I think so. You know, I really just catch clips. What I'll do is if I'm working and I have to be paying attention to my work -or if I if it's not something mindless like entering data or something- I like to listen to podcasts if I can actually pay attention but if I can't I'll just put on -and I don't watch it but I'll just- put on rotating clips through Facebook or something just go through Facebook watch and just whatever comes up next comes up. And every once in a while we'll get one of those Steve Wilkos and I hear "STEEEEVE" and I'm like, "Oh here we go." And it's always it's always a lie detector test, still to this day. Mike: Was Steve the guy who got his own show sprung off of like spun off of Jerry Springer? Jessika: "sprung off Springer." Correct. Yes. Mike: My roommate and I in college loved to watch Jerry Springer at night because it was the trashiest shit and we not stop. It was like a train wreck, you couldn't look away. Which I think was generally the appeal of Jerry Springer. But it's hard to resolve that because every interview I've seen with the guy he seems like a really pleasant down to earth human being. And then I'm like but you put the trashiest shit on television and it is demonstrable the effect that you had on daytime talk shows for a long time and still to this day in certain ways but for a while everybody was aping that. Anyway, this was a tangent. Jessika: That's okay It was exactly the tangent I wanted. Mike: Maury seemed like a lovely person for all two minutes that I interacted with him, and I hope that Jerry Springer is the person that he seems to be during interviews. Jessika: Same. Well, speaking of life drama, Marston had plenty. Mike: Oh, do tell. Jessika: Yeah. He was already married to his wife the aforementioned Elizabeth -who for consistency I'm going to continue calling Holloway though she did take his name when they got married. Marston, working as a professor at Tufts which is another university, fell in love with one of his students, Olive Byrne, in 1925 and advised his wife that Byrne could either move in or Marston was leaving. Mike: Oh. Jessika: Yeah. That was what the history said So we'll talk through the movie later Mike: Yeah, 'cuz my only familiarity with this so far is what I saw in the movie. *uggggh* Jessika: That was my reaction I now I did my research prior to watching the movie for this exact reason. So I watched the movie last night. It's super fresh. Mike: Yeah I watched it yesterday afternoon and then I watched the other one which we'll get into so it was the origins of Wonder Woman and then Wonder Woman a little bit more modern incarnation. Jessika: Perfect. Yeah. Byrne interestingly enough was the niece of Margaret Sanger. Have you heard that name before Mike: Yeah. She was like one of the early women's rights crusaders. Jessika: Yeah Yup Yup She was a renowned women's rights and birth control activist along with her sister Ethel Byrne opened the first birth control clinic in the United States which is so cool Mike: Yeah, that's awesome. Jessika: Both however were arrested for the illegal distribution of contraception and Ethel Byrne almost died during a hunger strike while she was in jail. Mike: I remember reading about that like in one of my one of my history classes. I mean, that checks out. Jessika: It was bad news bears. So I didn't write this down but I'm just remembering but I did read or listened to sources that said that multiple women were arrested and went on hunger strike and they were forced feeding them It was just it was bad news. The whole thing was just bad. So this obviously was during a time when women were still fighting for the right to vote as I'd mentioned earlier. And the idea of feminism was just a twinkle of a notion. So Byrne Holloway and Marston all three lived together for years as a throuple. Super interestingly they made up a backstory for all of as a widowed relative and both Holloway and Byrne were raising Marston's children. Byrne's Children were always told that their father had passed away and did not find out about the truth of their father's identity until after his death. Mike: Wow. So he fathered children with both women, correct? Jessika: He did. Yeah He fathered I believe two with Byrne and three with Holloway. They all live together in a house and again they managed to keep it secret enough that even their children didn't know. In the same house It's so wild to me Like how you and Mike: Insane to me. Jessika: You fathered children with this woman and they didn't know. No one knew. I can't fathom that honestly. Especially in a time when everybody was up at everybody else's business. Mike: Oh yeah. It's not like we had Netflix. You needed to do invent your own drama. Jessika: You look out Mike: the window. Before Marston died because he died fairly young as I remember it. So that was the whole thing in the movie is that they got out as being in a throuple to their neighbors. Nothing? Jessika: Never happened. They didn't get in trouble at the school. They didn't get in trouble with the neighbors. None of that. It was seamless. Mike: That actually makes me really happy. Jessika: Me too Mike: I love the idea of it sounds like a relatively healthy family. Jessika: I Mike: don't know. Maybe? Jessika: Y'know from what I was hearing because we're still in 1910 we're still in the 1920s I guess at this point it's still is like Marston is Papa Marston he's still man of the house. So I don't know especially when you're looking at this whole -how it was phrased and this is just a couple of sources- but just as far as how it's phrased in this I don't know that Holloway really had a choice other than "well I could be stuck here with" I don't know if she had children at that point "I could maybe be stuck as a single mother in the 1920s or I could allow this other woman to come into my house" but what's great about that is Byrne was able to just stay home and raise the kids. So Holloway was still able to go out and have a career. Yeah She still went out and had a career And so that's where it's I have a hard time saying definitively black and white Marston was a feminist as we would call him now. Probably not. But he definitely had the leanings of that. And he definitely was far advanced for his time Mike: sure I can only imagine. Was he still teaching during this time or was he doing something else? Jessika: He did so many things. He did so many things and I'll actually get into that a little bit further. But it was such a it did seem like a good situation for everyone. Marston had multiple professional interests And Marston believed not only in equality for women, but even further he believed that society should be matriarchal... which is where he goes a little bit more like a Ooh he just kind of swings off you know Cause he's like, "no no no no we should go in the exact 180. There's no middle ground here Women should rule society." Sure right now we live with men. Let's flip it over on its head and see how it goes I guess? But would settle for equality. Mike: Speaking as a mediocre white dude I'm totally fine with this plan. Jessika: Great Let's put it into effect. Who could I call? Papa Joe? I'll bring Mike: it up at the next meeting at the next mediocre white dude club meeting Jessika: I knew you guys had meetings. The gays definitely have meetings Well yeah You know you know you know I'm like well like I'm excluding you from the LGBT community That's rude of me and my Mike: apologies. The rest of them already do already. It's fine. Jessika: To Touché. We did have that conversation earlier. Biphobia. It's a real problem Mike: Yeah It's fun. Jessika: Yeah we were talking about Marston and his wild matriarchal ideas. And his idea was that women were more thoughtful empathetic and level headed when making decisions and would be better suited to positions of leadership. And Marston is quoted as saying -and if you want us to read this quote for me: Mike: okay! " Frankly Wonder Woman is a psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who, I believe, should rule the world." Jessika: So you can kind of see where he was going with that. Obviously she's powerful, she's more powerful than most of the men that she comes across. And he really was trying to flip that on its head with this character. Mike: Yeah. There was nothing like her before that Jessika: No. Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. However Marston's entry into the entertainment business didn't start with feminine power of Wonder Woman but instead with the film industry and again this is early film we're talking. He was in the silent film era and then moved talkies. Mike: Golden Age. Jessika: The Golden Age. And there he wrote screenplays and later acted as the consulting psychologist for universal pictures which I didn't even know That was a thing Having a consulting psychologist makes a lot of sense Mike: Yeah it does I just had no idea that was even a role that existed back then. Jessika: Yeah I know. And back then even I know. And at this point he'd already been published, having written dozens of magazine articles and a novel about his opinions Let's just call them or his findings about psychology at the time. And it is called a novel So just keep that in mind. It's called "Emotions of People" I believe. And they do mention it briefly in the film I didn't read it. I'm sure I could jump around and do I just didn't want to get into 1920s garbage which to He was then asked in 1941 to be the consulting psychologist for DC by Maxwell Charles Gaines who was more or less the creator of comics as we know them. At the time Gaines was under fire for content that folks deemed at the time to be risque. So he hired Marston to take off some of the heat by approving the content that was going out. With Marston on the team the largest complaints that they received was the aggressive masculinity that seemed to be the theme of all of the comic books. Yeah I know. You would think that we live in this society that values men so much you would think that we'd be able to just carry on with that you one form. Mike: Yeah Especially during that era which was right when we were getting into World War II and we were going hard for those traditional masculine values Jessika: Yup we want strong men who can go out there and die, I mean fight, for us. Yes. Marston suggested that the best way to counter that idea with the critics was to create a female superhero. Now Gaines accepted the idea but told Marston he had to write the strip himself. So he did. And with the help of illustrator Harry G Peter, Wonder Woman was in essence born. She was fierce, she was strong, she had a lasso that was that made others obey. It wasn't a truth thing that we now know it as the lasso of truth It was an obedient situation. Everybody who was lassoed had to obey her. So it was more of a dominance situation, which we will absolutely get to. And it makes a little bit more sense. Although there again with his lie detector the truth also makes sense. Either way, it tracks but it was obedience. Mike: Yeah you don't say. Jessika: One of her most important qualities was that she didn't kill. That was her empathy. That was that piece of her that was more feminine than some of those other comic book characters, those typical comic book characters Mike: Yeah. Even in the early days I know Batman killed people originally. He was like a goon and I think Superman did too in his early run. I think, can't remember for sure. Jessika: I believe so And then they when they got the comics code? When it was stricter with the comics code that's when they kind of moved into less actual killing from what I was reading I believe. Mike: You know I don't know for certain but it may have been before that because they were just they're such popular characters for kids. But I'm not entirely certain but I know that the early appearances are pretty brutal. I remember Batman hanging a dude from his plane. Jessika: Well I mean Superman came out in 1939 so yeah it's early. I'm going to send you a picture Mike: Okay. Jessika: And so this is the first introduction to Wonder Woman which was seen on the cover of sensation comics Will you please describe the cover? Mike: Yeah .So it is Sensation Comics Number One, the best of the DC magazines. You see Wonder Woman I'm not sure if the sun is really enlarged or if she is just jumping in front of something that's yellow to kind of add a little color to it but she is being shot at by a bunch of what appear to be mobsters somewhere in Washington DC because the capital is there and... is that is that the Lincoln Memorial? I can't tell what other building is that has the flag. Jessika: Apparently they're right across the street from each other. Not real life. This is scale. Mike: It looks like a vaguely government building I can't tell. Jessika: Yeah supposed to be something like that Mike: But it says "featuring the sensational new adventure strip character Wonder Woman!" You got to get that exclamation point in. She's kind of jacked like even back then which I kind of love. She is wearing a truly unflattering pair of boots that are only going up to mid calf as opposed to what we know now where they're just above the knee and armored and bad-ass. But it's the outfit that actually she's still sort of rocking the day where she's got the kind of red bustier with the gold eagle on it and then she's got the bulletproof bracelets and then she's got what I can only describe it as the bottom part of a sun dress kind of skirt where it's like very flowy? As opposed to that that gladiatorial skirt that she has now. But it's very identifiably Wonder Woman. Jessika: Yeah. And it goes back and forth between this was her first debut but it wasn't her first issue. first issue she was wearing more of what people were calling underpants of this same pattern. And that's what more used to. Yeah We're used to those like little booty shorts that she's rocking. So, right off the bat: Mike if you were a critic, in 1942 what would your main complaint about this be? Just based on the cover? Mike: I don't know. They were really concerned about the violence that was being marketed towards kids so probably the gunfire. Probably the fact that she was showing too much skin. Jessika: it. She wasn't clothed enough .Oh, they didn't care about the gunfire. That was not what was that was not the problem. Gasp. The drama was that Wonder Woman was wearing far too few clothes for Puritan America. Mike: Jesus Christ. And that's actually super tame Jessika: It's really tame. When you think about other superheroes that we have nowadays especially: You've got these massive boobs that are up to her neck and this little waist and like wearing a thong. But this is so covered Mike: Yeah. A lot of modern comics have these very almost suggestive poses. Do you remember when the Avengers came out and and all of the dudes had very action-oriented poses and then Black Widow was turned so that we could see her butt? She had Jessika: her like her arm up so that you could see her boob line. Mike: Yeah. And it's a really action oriented pose and it's very matter of fact there is nothing sexualized about that, kinda love. Jessika: Marston made it a point for her to be doing action and for her to be doing sports and for her to be doing things that were very active because women weren't given that as a role. So he really wanted to present that as another facet of, "Hey, this can also be feminine. Yeah I thought so, too. And while a slight costume adjustment seemed easy enough to deal with some critics also had qualms with other aspects of the comic. Namely, the depiction of women especially our heroine being tied or chained up or left in other positions of containment. Now, Marston's intention behind this seemed to be twofold in my opinion. Part one feminism and part two I also think he was just in kinky motherfucker. Which is great. Like, that's fine no kink shame. But we're going to briefly discuss both. So part one feminism. Marston was a supporter of women's rights, as we said. He was a supporter of the right to vote and the ability to have access to contraceptives. He'd been a supporter of these movements in his own right and was particularly struck by the female suffragettes who would chain themselves to a location in protest. Chains seem to him to be the very image brought to life of how society chains down and stifles women from succeeding. Either chaining them to their family before they're wed, chaining them to their new husband, or chaining them to pregnancies that they either cannot afford or don't want. In each of these portrayals of Wonder Woman being tied down there is always the moment that she's able to break free from her restraints in triumph which is just a perfect metaphor for the modern woman being able to break free from the societal chains that still bind her. And this hope that women will be able to eventually free themselves for good. In everything I've read, you had women suffragettes chaining themselves to places in protest. Same thing with the contraceptive movement. That was a huge metaphor for both of those movements, so it would make sense that if you are portraying a feminist during that era that that might be a theme. And I think people who maybe didn't support or were unfamiliar with the movements might have something to say negatively against the imagery, especially if they didn't understand Mike: We had a lot of people back then who were really pushing for propriety and basically you can't let immoral elements affect the children. They always fucking latch on to like "think of the children. Protect the children." Fuck off. Jessika: We still do that shit. This is just like pizza gate all over again. Mike: Yeah Jessika: Pizza gate before pizza gate. Little did they know. But part two: the kink factor. Marston had a whole dominance theory that I think tells a lot more about him than it does to the human experience In general I'm not going to get deep into the theory because we both have lives but it pertains to dominance and submission at the very minimum. Mike: You don't say. Jessika: Yo I know right. Mike: What. Shock. Jessika: At this point it's pretty well established that individuals have different drives and things that excite them. But I think that Marston was looking at the world from a place of, oh I like this So everybody is like this." Which just isn't the case for everybody. Mike: Right. But that's also like a very stereotypical kind of dude attitude. Jessika: Yeah. This is my worldview and so it must be everybody's. Absolutely. Again, he's some Harvard bro. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Jessika: You're able to just go to Harvard in 1925 like Mike: NBD. I'm Jessika: gonna Mike: to be living near there soon. Oh God. I'm going to Jessika: be visiting you soon. I've got the people there. You're fine. We'll get you there. We'll get you there. But my impression is that he assumed that everyone else was a little kinky like him. Also it needs to be stated that again in interviewing Marson's children they never saw toys, ropes, anything that he had mentioned in the comics or that were the things that were being taken as this great offense, they didn't see any of those things. So it was this was also a complete surprise to them nothing related to bondage. Mike: Yeah that's wild man. I just I think about the fact that my partner has stories about how when everyone was out of the house she would just snoop around when she was growing up. And I remember doing that too And kids get into shit. Jessika: We also grew up in the age in the era of the latchkey child, though. My parents would just and not for long periods of time it's not like they would go out of town or something. But they'd leave us and say "don't answer the door. You're not home. Don't answer the phone. We'll call and ring twice and then hang up and then call back If we want to talk to you know whatever there was a code. But there again we lived in a different time even this many years I mean it just we sound like old people every time we have this conversation. Mike: You know someone pointed out that if Back To The Future was taking place today Marty McFly would be going back to like 91. Jessika: Don't do this to me. Mike: We're old, Jess. Jessika: We're Mike: practically Jessika: this Okay Mike. This is going to seem like such a non-sequitur But have you ever had to do a DISC personality assessment for any of your offices jobs? Mike: I don't think so. The name isn't familiar but describe this to me. Jessika: Basically it's like any of those other stupid employee personality tests where they try to like "what part of the team are you? How can we use your strengths?" I'm a supervisor so I've had to go through all this crap. And it's cool. It's a cool concept but it's also like mind numbing if it's not your wheelhouse. Mike: No. So I've never taken anything like this no. Jessika: Okay So yeah you basically answered a bunch of questions about what you would do in a situation. And it's kind of one of those no wrong answers kind of tests. And then they put you into one of four different categories. So I have had to do this before and and other ones like it but I honestly can't remember what I scored and I'm not going to get into a long-winded lecture on the topic either but suffice it to say that part of that is dominance That's the D and part of it is compliance which is the C. Mike: So was this something Marston came up with? Jessika: Yeah. Marston came up with and it's we still use version of this today which is so interesting. So far he's got lie detector, check. We still kind of use it today. Steve Wilkos does. And then now he's got the DISC which I definitely have taken. Now, it doesn't look the same. The categories are not the same as when he first created them. So less kink forward I would say. But you still have those two that are vibing you know. And for those of you are you unfamiliar with the kink scene: Power dynamics in play can sometimes come in the form of having one dominant and one submissive partner. But again not everybody functions in that way. Ultimately, wonder Woman was allowed to continue as she was. Delighting readers even to this day though of course the writing has changed hands multiple times meaning that her true meaning was sometimes lost to those who were in charge of telling her story. For example once Wonder Woman entered the Justice League she was immediately made to be the secretary. And there were many times that she was relegated to staying behind because she just had so much to take care of and "oh little old me couldn't get involved in having lifting" bullshit. God damn. She's so fucking strong. She has powers and Batman doesn't. Why the fuck does he get to go on missions? Why the fuck Isn't Batman the secretary? That's my question. Oh he has money my own his Mike: power that he's rich. Jessika: God damn. Yeah. Thanks for that Ben Affleck. We know. Still like him as Batman. Mike: Yeah. I'll die on that hill he was good. Jessika: Yeah Yeah He was good There was also a point where she lost her powers completely though did gain them back, those were times that Wonder Woman didn't necessarily feel like the fierce warrior she truly is. Mike: Yeah, actually, Brian's comics -our local comic shop- the first time I went in there they had the all-new Wonder Woman issue where it's like this iconic cover where it's her tearing up I think the original version of her and it's like get ready for the all new Wonder Woman I think that's when they de-powered her. I think. I'm not certain I'm really bummed that I didn't pick that up when it was there. Jessika: The idea behind that apparently was supposed to be that would make her more human and relatable but that's not you're just taking away the things that make her a stronger character for people that look up to her. Mike: Yeah I'm sorry. Did you were you able to hear my eyes rolling out of their Jessika: I did actually Yeah no that was a really palpable eye-roll. well Marston passed away at the age of 53 of cancer So very young like you were saying. Yeah. Holloway and Byrne continue living together until they both went into the hospital around the same time in 1990. When Byrne passed away, in a different room in the same hospital at the age of 86. Mike: I Jessika: got teary writing this so I'm probably going to get teary reading it. Upon hearing the news of burns passing Holloway sang a poem by Tennyson in her hospital room. So everything I've read alludes to the idea that Holloway and Byrne were also in a relationship with each other not just the man with all of them that they did have there were women who were kind of rotating in the house. It wasn't just these two there were other women who at different periods of time lived in the house undetected by the way can we just give it up for the Marston Family. Mike: Like. How? Jessika: That's what I'm saying. I don't know, money? And the dude had his little hands in everything so he probably just knew a bunch of people I don't know How do you get away with things as a guy I literally can't even imagine. Mike: This is my friend who's coming over to assist with this thing? The question is were they just coming into visit or were they living there for periods of Jessika: time? They were living there for a parts. Yes I know me too. I know. Okay let's run through: You have a widowed relative. You could be bringing in a nanny. You could be bringing in another person who works in the house et cetera et cetera. You could be bringing in a cousin or another type of relative. I'm sure you could excuse up the yin yang. Mike: Yeah I mean you can come up with excuses but if they're like living with you for any amount of time there are those moments of small intimacies that other people will pick up on. I don't know I mean were the kids just dumb? I don't know like how that requires some serious commitment to acting I feel. Jessika: Yeah. Oh yeah. Mike: So much fucking effort. Jessika: I was just going to say that. Can you imagine? I can't. Mike: No. Jessika: The mental strain alone. Mike: Like I have one partner, I have step-kids, and I have pets and that's like that's kind of the extent of my bandwidth. Jessika: Oh okay So I am non-monogamous or Poly, polyamorous. So I do have multiple partners although I they're what I would consider like secondary partners or partners that I don't I don't live with them, I don't necessarily see them on a super regular basis but I still maintain a relationship with them. And I still consider them partners. To whatever you know effect that is. But it is a lot of work and it's so much communication and you can just tell that Marston had to have been really communicative and that whole family had to have been really communicative. Mike: They must have been. Jessika: Or else how. Mike: At the same time like that era men weren't necessarily expected to be super communicative or show a lot of emotion or be the one to provide nurturing experiences with the kids. So maybe they just didn't get a lot of exposure to the kids and were really just exposed to their mothers and the motherly figures. I mean, this is all completely uninformed speculation so don't take anything that I'm saying with even a grain of salt like this. Jessika: Oh no. Absolutely at any rate Holloway passed away in 1993 at the ripe age of 100. Mike: Oh wow. So there was a little bit Jessika: of an age difference. Around Yeah there was there was yeah. Sounds like about a little bit less than 20 years. About 14 years. But if you think about it she was in college. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: He was her teacher and they were already married. He went to I want to say that he started college like prior to 1910. And they met and she moved into the house in 1925. So that's a good 15. Mike: He would have been about he would have been about 17 and 1910 right? Based on it like he was 1893 he said? Jessika: Yes yes. Yeah. And it sounds like Holloway was born the same year. Mike: Yeah and I got to say the love story between Holloway and Byrne sounds like something straight out of a movie. Which we're about to get into. But we all want to have that partner who is with us till the bitter end and then they sing a poem in our memory. Like goddamn. Jessika: It's just so beautiful. Yeah. They had it when they live together in the house, they had adjoining rooms and this is where it's like how did your kids not know because Marston would sleep in both. How did he like literally how did they not know? No it's wild to me. And then when they were older, byrne and Holloway lived in a little two bedroom place in Tampa together. This cute place apparently. So let's talk about our reactions here. We did also watch Professor Marston and the Wonder Women which I think it's worth a watch in my just off the bat. Mike: Yeah. I really liked it a lot and it was a movie that totally flew under the radar for me when it came out. I was vaguely aware of it but I really did not know much about it before we talked about what movies we wanted to do and March being women's month it seemed like a natural conclusion after the DCEU. Jessika: Yeah. Absolutely. That train wreck. I'm sorry. Mike: I was Jessika: of We did. We did enjoy one of the movies and we enjoyed aspects of of them. I trailed off my brain wouldn't let me do it It's like no that sentence Mike: I mean we kind of enjoyed parts of the Snyder cut Jessika: We did We liked it better Mike: than I don't like we're still Jessika: bitching about the Snyder Cut Mike: Look at Jessika: this Mike: back Jessika: Goddammit. We've literally can't get away from it Zach Snyder, hit us up.. No don't. You're not going to like what you hear I'm going to get to eat It adds Zach Snyder is going to be like Mike: I want the Snyder cut of Professor Marston in the Women which will be just scenes of Luke Evans with the Women in the background and don't do anything else. Jessika: And there's no dialogue in this one at all. It's just it's just heavy looks. Mike: It's just all the scenes from that sorority scene just over and just dark, scenes. Jessika: Definitely talk about that. Oh. What did you think about the film overall. Mike: Like I said, I overall really enjoyed it. I had heard about this movie a little bit. I remember my weightlifting partner at the time was telling me about how she and her wife had gone and enjoyed it and she thought that I would really like it. And I was like, "yeah okay cool." And then it just I didn't get around to seeing it while it was out in it's very limited run in theaters. And then I don't think it ever came to any streaming platform when I was aware of it. I was really surprised by actually how much I did enjoy it. I thought it was a shockingly sweet love story and I was expecting something much more judgmental or scandalous I was really expecting a much more judgy story about the Marstons and Byrne raising an entire family as a throuple. Jessika: was too. Mike: I was wondering if the relationship was ever outed and if they ever did break up like they did in the movie because that felt kind of forced and it felt very Hollywood and I was like "all right, whatever. This is dumb." At the end where they're on their knees submitting to Byrne." Jessika: Spot on That was made up There was none of that. Mike: I still think the most offensive thing about that movie was that they tried to make me think that someone who looked like Luke Evans was responsible for Wonder Woman's creation. I love Luke Evans I think he's really a fun actor and I was really glad to see him in a real role as opposed to I saw Dracula untold in theaters. I saw I'm Oh man I I didn't see Beauty and The Beast in theaters but I've since seen it. He's one of those actors where I feel like he just needs to be given good roles. He's like Kiana Reeves where I feel like he's often typecast and just thrust into stuff that aren't really any good but he was really good in this. That said: I've seen that man shirtless so many times and I don't know a single comic creator with abs like that. On the flip side, I went into this trying to keep myself as unaware a lot of the history of Marston but I do know what he looked like in his forties and that was like a dude in his seventies. Jessika: Did you watch all at the end of the film they had all the pictures. Yeah And you're just like, "oh. Oh." Like because Byrne and Holloway also not looking like who they cast. Not even a little bit, not even at all. Mike: Okay this is mean. But I'm like yes you look like the type of people who would be in a throuple. Jessika: No. Okay, fair enough And especially here's you know what it reminded me of it reminded me of those pictures that I used to see from that era where the Women especially with those two they looked like the type who would dress up as men and go to the clubs. Mike: Absolutely Jessika: I get that. It's just a vibe I get and maybe it's just my gaydar Like my pansexual gaydar is Mike: going But I mean that's the ongoing lie that Hollywood loves to tell us is that truly sexy people are in throuples all the time. No they're fucking not. I'm bI And I was dating here in the Bay area and I would occasionally get hit on by people looking for a third and they never looked like that. Jessika: And in my experience and opinion if you go at it with the wrong attitude you're not necessarily going to get what you want out of it. And it's not going to be a genuine feeling relationship. Mike: Which I mean like that's relationships in general. Like Yeah I feel like a huge thing of any successful relationship is communications. Stay tuned listeners for our next podcast about relationships and relationship advice And I don't know I don't know where I was going with that. Jessika: Oh I was like we have a new podcast. We're four episodes into this podcast and Mike's like folks we have a new podcast. You know what I like I like your gusto. I like a motivated you Mike: I did have two quibbles about the movie. Getting back on topic. First we earlier mentioned there was no acknowledgement about the problematic nature of how Marston and Byrne's relationship began. Where he was her professor and she was his student. The movie was very fuzzy with time it was very fluid that way. So it wasn't really explained if she was still his student when the relationship began or if she was his research assistant but there was that power imbalance and their dynamic and that was deeply uncomfortable for me because it wasn't addressed. They just kinda hand waved it away. Fine. Whatever. For the movie, fine. Jessika: same way about that. Yeah It just it's gross and to your point there is a power dynamic that I was thinking about. If you are trying to please somebody who has some sort of control over you, whatever that looks like, if it's somebody who has your grades or your future career or your education or even your job... you know this could be at a job setting. If that person has power over you you're less inclined to say "no" to them. And that automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Mike: It was something that I noticed and I was a little frustrated that it wasn't addressed better. The second was that it didn't feel like we actually got enough time with Wonder Woman. The comics and the character felt more like a framing device but a framing device that we didn't really get a lot of payoff on, considering the title of the movie. I thought the scenes where he was actually in the comic office and there was a bit where they're like "Oh well, they're upset about the bondage. And they're like I feel like there's twice as much. And then he just is like I put in three times as much and he keeps walking. And and Oliver Platt was so great and I wanted more of him. For a movie that has Wonder Woman or Wonder Women in the title I just I wanted a little bit more time and acknowledgement. It felt like much more attention was paid just to their relationship with like the first two thirds of the movie. And then he goes with hat in hand to Oliver Platt's character at... was it all-star Comics? Was Jessika: that it? Mike: Yeah. I mix up all the publishers because they've all merged and come together at various. So yeah he It just it it was And especially cause you were like no he got hired to like do this to get them out of hot water now I'm like that makes much more sense. Jessika: Yeah He Mike: Considering the importance that we're led to believe that Wonder Woman will be to his story, I mean she's there. Like they do a number of things where they keep teasing us with Wonder Woman but we never really get that payoff. What about you like Jessika: I did my research on the topic prior to watching the film. So this will be mostly on what the film did or didn't do correctly kind of history with my own opinion of course sprinkled in as you'd expect from So to your point most of the drama seems to have been fabricated There's no indication that any issues with Radcliffe, like trying to boot him for indecency or with the neighbors regarding their relationship, and again even their children didn't know until after Marston's passing about their relationship. And I didn't read anything about them having split up at any point. And again I think that was just added for a forceful Hollywood dramatics play, since we're on the topic of dominance. And there again Marston was already working for Gaines when he created the idea of Wonder Woman and it was in direct relation to the voice of the critics. So he was answering the critics here. So it didn't necessarily seem like as big of a you did this thing and now we're going to make you pay. It was like well okay Right. The sections with Connie Britton -love her by the way, want more in my life just in general- and their back and forth minus all the people drama was actually pretty accurate as far as capturing the concerns of the day and what was being argued in the lobby against Wonder Woman. And then also pretty accurate in what his counterpoints were in relation to the to the comic itself. Mike: Yeah And I thought that was a smart choice to kind of make her the voice of the critics. Jessika: Yeah. That being said his relationship didn't come up at any point in this again because nobody knew about it until after the fact. So it's not like she would have been like what about those things you were indecent. Well, no that that didn't happen. That was all for dramatics. Overall I really liked it. So, again, me as a pansexual: love a good queer film and also being polyamorous or non-monogamous it was so nice seeing that to your point represented so positively, and without judgment. That was so surprising to me I really thought that there was going to be some sort of aspect from the point of view of the viewer to not want them to succeed. But the whole time you really do you're rooting for them. Mike: If you're a fan of history in comic books I think this is a great movie to go check out. My final thought is that reminded me a lot of Kinsey. Did you ever see that? It had Liam Neeson and Laura Linney in it and it's all about Kinsey, the guy created the Kinsey scale of sexuality. Jessika: Oh okay I'll have to check it out Mike: It's great. This kind of reminded me the same way where it's mostly true. It's not quite all there because they have to tszuj it up for the audiences. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Well, let's move on to our other film that we watched which was Wonder Woman from 2009. And that was the animated origin story of Wonder Woman Do you want to give an overview of the film for us? Mike: Yeah, sure. This is one of the original DC Universe Animated Original Movies which were at the time this came out in 2009 they were still in their infancy. They'd only done three before. This one is loosely based on George Perez's acclaimed 1980s storyline called "Gods and Monsters" and it's written by Gail Simone and Michael Jelenic. Gail Simone has gotten her own amount of acclaim for writing Wonder Woman as well. The film introduces us to the Amazons who win a war against Ares and then they're granted the Island of Themiscyra and immortality in exchange for acting as Ares' jailer by the gods. Diana is later sculpted from clay and given life by the gods. This is kind of in direct opposition to the current mythos of Zeus being her deadbeat dad and then Diana lives on the Island for thousands of years until pretty much the modern day when two key events happen. Steve Trevor crashes on the Island by happenstance and then Ares stages of jailbreak. And Diana has to take Steve back to the United States and he helps her and request to stop the god of war. Jessika: And actually pretty similar to where they tried to go with the original Wonder Woman. So this was absolutely not a cartoon for children. Mike: Nooooo. Jessika: blood spattered backgrounds, fairly graphic death scenes, and three beheadings three beheadings. We're talking the head flying off and falling dramatically at someone's feet kind of beheading. And that being said I didn't particularly mind the violent nature of the animation as a movie for adults as I feel that it was done in a way that felt true to the battle and the struggle of what was happening in the storyline and it didn't feel overly gross in its depictions or its animations like just enough to give the definite impression that violence was occurring. That makes sense Ares is a super violent guy and he affects everyone around him into violence themself so that it did make sense in that way. So things I liked is that it it seemed to me like a fairly good representation of Wonder Woman's origin story as it was originally told by Marston based on what I was reading. Mike: Yeah it it felt like a very classic take on Wonder Woman's origin. And it was very familiar to someone who grew up nominally aware of her origins and reading her mini comics with her action figure and stuff like that. Jessika: One main difference was that the movie was set in seemingly present day America. Since at one point Wonder Woman ends up fighting in a mall, the fighter planes that Steve and company were flying looked modern for 2009. Marston's Wonder Woman was originally set in World War Two of course whereas the 2018 live action film with Gal Gadot was set in World War One. So we've just jumped around. Again DC is definitely not consistent. Mike: It's comic books. And DC's own in- comics timeline has been drastically reworked several times just in our lifetime. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And this time period change it definitely affects the vibe and political climate of American society at that time in the cartoon we're not presented with a particular war or a reason for fighting we're evidently just supposed to understand that the world of men is in constant battle every moment. Whereas in the original comic and Wonder Woman film Both took place during large global wars where it wouldn't be a far leap to present the god of war as the cause of those events. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Jessika: Now things I didn't like cause apparently I veered into not liking and then we're continuing down that road. For someone that wasn't raised in a patriarchal society, Diana's internalized misogyny is staggering. At one point she says to Steve, "you're starting to sound like a woman" when he's discussing having feelings for her and later says to Ares, "how can you expect to beat Zeus If you can't even beat a girl." The fuck that? Mike: Which kind of goes against everything else that she does in the movie. Jessika: Yeah it directly against it. Yeah, so that was irritating. And then not only that, the president, because apparently they're in Washington DC, the president is told that they were saved by a group of armored supermodels. Which I had to rewind it and write that line down grossed. Out It's such a condescending and reductive statement to make about individuals that just saved your lives while you apparently slept through the whole situation, Mr President. And it drives home the point that even in heroism, women's worth is still viewed only in her attractiveness. Mike: Yeah there was a lot of that. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. They also have Diana do quite a bit of killing with absolutely no thought whatsoever which is not in the original character at all. That doesn't feel very Diana. Mike: I mean, no. But at the same time I don't particularly have a problem with it but yeah Jessika: Yeah. So that was me. What about you? Were you at with that? Mike: I think I had a slightly more positive take on the movie. I mean it sounds like you still enjoyed it, right? Jessika: Oh, I liked it. I still liked it. Yeah. Mike: Part of it is just I viewed it at the time when it first came out and this was one of the first animated original movies. And it was the first one that I remember enjoying. So I think that it's definitely tinted my perspective a little bit. Jessika: You had a nostalgia factor that I didn't I hadn't seen it prior. Mike: I remember seeing the reviews for it and I was like, "Oh this looks really cool. The others that were released before that they were all, well two of the three were just straight adaptations of other you know quote unquote iconic stories So there is Superman: Doomsday which was the death and life of Superman and I did not give a shit about that movie. It was really I felt flat. Then there was Justice League: The New Frontier which is based on a really acclaimed mini series. And then there was Batman Gotham Knight which was -if I remember right- it was several different animated shorts and different animated styles. And none of them really did it for me. But the DC Animated Universe, which was helmed by Bruce Timm, so that's like the original Batman animated series from the nineties as well as the Superman series and then Justice League and then Batman Beyond or vice versa and then Justice League Unlimited, those were all incredible. And I knew that eventually we would get to the same point with the animated movies and Wonder Woman felt like that home run that I knew they'd eventually hit. So I really enjoyed the film overall and even watching it yesterday afternoon I had a blast, you know, even a decade later. I think its strongest element is that the movie clearly has zero fucks to give. That battle between the Amazons and Ares is incredibly violent and it's obvious from the first 30 seconds in that this is going to be a RIDE. And it doesn't shy away from some really tough narrative elements like where Hippolyta actually in that battle It's revealed that she kills Thrax, the son of Ares. Thrax is her child who is very heavily implied the product of rape by Jessika: Ares. Mike: Also the vocal cast is just incredible. This was 2009 Keri Russell, Nathan Fillion, Virginia Madsen, Rosario Dawson, Alfred Molina, and then Oliver Platt. They were really well-regarded actors at the time and they're still pretty big and side note Oliver Platt was in both of the movies that we watched for this Jessika: episode. I literally thought of that when you said that. Mike: he fucking steals every scene he's in. He was just this delightful villainous Hades and he's kinda gross but he's also just wonderfully sinister. I really dug that and I also really dug how it felt like a pretty faithful adaptation of the origin while still feeling fresh and fast. Like this movie is not long. That kind of leads into something that I didn't like was that It's a very short movie. It's barely over an hour long. I feel like we needed a director's cut or something because of the lines could have been fleshed out a little bit more like this is something Look Jessika: who wants director's cut now. Mike: Release the Simone cut or something, I don't know. I feel like there were a couple of sub plot lines that were kind of just glossed over. Like I mentioned Thrax is actually Diana's half-brother. I feel like maybe there might've been something more there. Maybe there wasn't, who knows. But it just it felt like something that I would have liked a little more room to breathe. And that's said, it was pretty solid. That said there were some problematic elements. Like Steve was so gross and so cringy Jessika: He kept calling her Angel and I just wanted to punch him in the jaw. Mike: Which, I mean, so that's like a thing from the comics and his other earlier incarnations but this time around it just felt gross. It felt like "babe" and you know blech. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. He just he rolled in and was like "Oh naked ladies I'm in right place for me." Mike: And the problem is that Nathan Fillion was just too good at making him a sleazebag. Jessika: Which, love Nathan Fillion. Mike: I do too. Like, okay dude, we get it. He's kind of a gross misogynist. We don't need him to hit on Diana for the fifth time in as many minutes. Etta Candy viewing Diana as competition was also dumb. Candy's always been one of her best friends and I still think that her incarnation in the original movie was pitch perfect. And then her being this skinny little supermodel who's trying to flirt with Steve was dumb. You mentioned the other problematic misogynistic elements that I noted. the only other thing, and this wasn't an actual problem, was that I didn't realize how much better Wonder woman's costume is these days rather than the super swimsuit that we had for so long. It's funny because growing up with it, I never thought about it. And then really only in the last five years or so we've gotten a much more armored, sensible outfit that looks really bad-ass. Her skirt is modeled after gladiators' skirts from Roman times and she looks like a warrior, as opposed to a supermodel. It was just kind of disconcerting to see that in action for awhile. It's still not as bad as the costume that David E. Kelly tried to do back in 2011. that? Jessika: I don't even know if I want to remember that I'll have to look it up. Mike: It's so bad It's T he tried to do a pilot. So David Kelly is the guy who created Ally McBeal. Yeah. Just look it up. Look up David Kelly and Wonder Woman and you'll see the costume It looks like something out of the slutty section of a Halloween store. Jessika: Oh no. It's yeah. No. It's. Okay, I'll describe this. It's pleather. It's just pleather. It's basically boning and pleather. That's it. Mike: It's bad. Jessika: Yeah. And there's this one picture where she's running and legitimately it looks like she's going to start showing nip any second because her boobs are just flying out of their bustier. Mike: She was played by the actress Adrianne Palicki. I can't remember how her last name is pronounced. But she was on a bunch of shows. She was on Friday Night Lights, Agents of Shield for awhile, and then she was in the second GI Joe movie. She is a really fun actress when she's given good material and she is a stunningly pretty woman, with a heinously unrealistic body but whatever. Jessika: She was in supernatural too. Mike: Yeah that sounds about right. You can look up the clips on YouTube. It is real bad. It is real bad. Jessika: This is why I have such a hard time sticking with DC things. I'll see something good and I'm like "Oh okay I can give them a chance again." And then I just see something horrendous and it turns me off of them for so long. And somebody is like, "let's watch this" and I'm like "are you a mad person?" That No Actually you honestly have inspired my love for Wonder Woman a little bit more. I already loved Gal Gadot's doing great. I loved that aspect of it but the history itself is interesting. Mike: to all this from you. Jessika: Yeah Actually fun fact about the characters outfit that I don't know why I didn't have it in here I think I just missed putting it in there. The bracelets that Wonder Woman wears, those cuffs, they're actually based off of bracelets that Byrne use to wear instead of wedding rings. Mike: That's so cool. Jessika: So it was a direct take from their relationship that was inspired by her wearing those as a signification of their relationship Mike: That's awesome man. Jessika: Yeah And they're still there to this day so it's you know so interesting. Mike: Yeah. That's the big thing about her is the bulletproof bracelets and the lasso. Jessika: So that lasso of obedience. Mike: The lasso of truth! Jessika: Well, it's time for us to discuss that one thing comics or comics adjacent that we haven't been able to stop thinking about lately. Mike, what's been wrinkling in your brain? Ugh. So this happened in the news today. Do you know who Jordan Peterson is? He is to put it mildly an extremely problematic psychology professor up in Canada who became famous back in 2016 because he got mad on YouTube about gender pronouns and blew up with all the usual groups who glom onto that bullshit. Mike: Since then the alt-right shitheel section of the internet has really embraced his teaching about gender and masculinity and he sucks. So anyway. I'm probably going to butcher his name because I've never actually heard spoken out but Ta-Nehisi Coates who I believe he's also like a poet Laureate but he's been writing comics for a while. So he has a recent Captain America comic out which features the Red Skull running a website where he's providing quote unquote informational videos about things like "the feminist trap" and "10 rules for life" which is a direct parody of Peterson cause he wrote a book called "12 rules for life" where he's lecturing his viewers about how America today is weak, and he's talking about how man today is a caretaker and he has no moral steel in his spine or whatever. And he says this while it's featuring Oh it's terrible But his quotes are being featured over footage of Captain America getting his ass kicked and getting trodden over. So it's like if you embrace the values of decency you're going to get walked all over. And he tells us viewers "I offer you the sword of manhood." So one of Peterson's fans alerted him to this today and he got Big Mad about it. Like legit offended that someone's equating what he spouts to what the Red Skull would say and I have been cackling all day how all these red pill MRA dipshits are just raging at the fact that someone pointed out how their senpai, the dude that they worship, is saying the exact same shit one of Marvel's biggest villains would if he was on YouTube. And all of us were looking at the Red Skull saying this for the most part like, "you know, that checks out." Jessika: Oh no don't you hate it when you realize you're on the wrong side? Mike: Oh God. It's like I don't know man if everybody's telling you that you're an asshole maybe you're an asshole. Jessika: It's hard. It's like the person who thinks they're the smartest person in the room usually isn't kind of a deal. Mike: Well Jessika: What is that Dunning's Kruger or something? Mike: So how about you? What has been on your brain lately? Jessika: Well. I I don't really like watching trailers for films these days because I feel like they tend to give away the whole plot line and all the good bits of the movie. But I did happen to catch a glimpse of the black widow film that's coming out soon. Mike: Okay I haven't watched it yet. Jessika: Yeah. I'm excited to see it Oh you haven't seen the trailer for it? Mike: Yeah I haven't seen the trailer. Jessika: Oh yeah. I'm just excited for more MCU I'm not going to lie. I just love me some MCU and plus give me more female MCU characters their own films and series. Like give give give. Mike: A lot of them are coming to Disney Plus this is the first time that we're getting a female superhero in theaters. Technically. To us in the future we're recording this while the pandemic is still going on and Jessika: From MCU you mean. Cause I mean obviously we the DC the DCEU that had Wonder Woman come out. Mike: Yeah. That's what I meant as like the first female superhero from Marvel. Jessika: Exactly. It's just think it's going to be so good. Mike: Please I went and saw Catwoman in theaters. Jessika: Hey that's great. Yeah Yeah. Oh yeah no Halle Berry is Catwoman. Come on. That's a classic. Mike: She brought her Oscar with her to the Razzies and accepted the Razzie award for Catwoman and gave a whole speech holding her Academy award. Oh God. I thought that was like she could do no wrong after that. I was like fine I will pay money to go see you and whatever Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. She's just such a good actor to begin with, she just brings her whole self to every role and not in a gross like I'm going to send people rats like Jared Leto but not one of those stupid ass asshole method actors she but she's just she's a different character in every role she plays which you really can't say that about every actor. Yeah. She's one of those actors that I... I have never sat there and went "God, she was dog shit." I'm like it wasn't a good movie but she was fun. Exactly. Yeah. She's never the main complaint about those movies. Now what I would like to see is some more variation in body types and race but I will take the baby steps if we're headed in the direction of at least getting some women included. Let's start small, we'll get bigger from there. Mike: Normalize the mom and dad bod. Come on, Marvel, DC. Do it. Jessika: Exactly. You started out strong with Thor. He's still enough. Thor is still enough. I should still be able to be enough in my pandemic bod, okay? Mike: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazier and Mike Thompson, written by Jessika Frazier, and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound. Our credits music is "Pursuit of Life" by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank who goes by cut_thistles on Instagram. Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions, or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to ten cent takes at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is tencenttakes, surprise surprise. I am at jessikawithaK and Jessika is spelled with a K, by the way. And Mike is vansau: V a N S a U. Mike: Stay safe out there. Jessika: And support your local comic shop.

Are you ready to emerge from the depths of comics history as we finish Jessika's recent finds from a shop in Massachusetts? This week we're coasting the currents via Aquaman's second volume, a 1980s miniseries that wound up providing a soft reboot to the character and setting him up with the origin story that's pretty much been canon ever since. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Hello, all you ghouls and goblins! We're kicking off Spooky Season (as is our godless-given right) and talking about the short-lived 1990 series Bats, Cats & Cadillacs. It might not have lasted long, but it certainly made an impression on us!

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

It's time to discuss the Alterniverse, Marvel's short-lived imprint that ran alternate-world stories (which included What If...? issues). As such, the hosts of Dear Watchers were gracious enough to cross over onto our show and fill in the gaps of our Marvel Multiverse knowledge. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Special thanks to Rob and Guido from Dear Watchers for hanging out with us and lending their expertise. Head over to https://dearwatchers.transistor.fm/ and smash that subscribe button! They're also on Twitter, so be sure to give them a follow: https://twitter.com/dearwatchers 

What better way to talk about Deathmate then to do a crossover with another podcast? In this episode, we talk about the infamous 90s event with Brad and Lisa Gullickson (the hosts of Comic Book Couples Counseling)! 

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Transcript forthcoming

There can be only one, but Highlander's had a surprising number of media adaptations and spin-offs over the years. We take a look at all of them and even get some behind-the-scenes gossip about the infamous comic book tie-in: Highlander 3030. ----more----

Episode 05 [00:00:00] Mike: It's fine. It's fine. I'm not bitter. Mike: Welcome to Tencent Takes, the podcast where we make comics trivia rain like dollar bills on Magic Mike night. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my cohost, the mistress of mayhem herself, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Muahahaha! It is I hello, Mike. Mike: Hello. If you're new to the podcast, we like to look at comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to check out their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they've been woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we are traveling through time and talking about the 35 year legacy of one of the strongest cult franchises around, Highlander. But [00:01:00] before we do that, Jessika, what is one cool thing that you've watched or read lately? Jessika: My brother has some copies of classic Peanuts Comics, and it's so much fun. It's good, wholesome, fun. And Snoopy- related media always makes me nostalgic. And Mike you've mentioned before that we're in California in the San Francisco Bay area, but fun fact, I live right near Santa Rosa, which is the home of the Peanuts creator Charles Schultz when he was alive. So there's a museum there and an ice skating rink. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Which is super awesome And Snoopy on ice was huge when I was a kid. And that is definitely the place I also learned to ice skate. By the way, they throw a mean birthday party, just saying, not right this second. Not this second. [00:02:00] We should do it is what I'm saying. Mike: We should do it for ourselves. Jessika: No, that's what I'm saying. Oh, I don't have children. Mike: But we do. Jessika: Yes, they can come with us, like they're invited. Mike: I mean, are they? Jessika: Look at you hesitating. Mike: We took the kids to the Peanuts museum right before the lockdowns happened. that really Jessika: That's really lovely that's nice got to do that. Mike: There’s a lot of cool stuff to do. It's really interactive. It's also just a really fascinating experience because there's so much about the Peanuts during their, what 50 year run give or take. It may not have been that long. It may have been 30 or 40, but it was a long time, and I really dug it, like there was a lot of cool stuff, so yeah . And also the cool thing about Santa Rosa is they've also got all those Snoopy statues all over town too. Jessika: They do. Yeah. All the [00:03:00] Peanuts characters actually. Cause they, the Charlie Browns and the Lucy's now and the Woodstocks. Yeah they're all over the place. But that used to be something fun we could do as a scavenger hunt, and actually that's something you guys could still do even with the lockdown. Cause most of them are outside is just find that list of where all the Snoopy's or whatever character is and go find them all. Cause we did that at one point, like as an adult, obviously. Well, what about you, Mike? Mike: The complete opposite of something wholesome. Jessika: Perfect. Mike: We didn't actually have the kids for a few days. They were with their dad and we couldn't find anything new to watch. So, we wound up bingeing the entire series of Harley Quinn on HBO Max. Jessika: Oh, you’re ahead of me then. Damn you. Mike: This is my third time going through the series. We've just gotten to the point where we turned it on when we want to watch something that's kind of soothing in a way, even though it is not a soothing TV show. But I still am [00:04:00] having these full on belly laughs where I'm breathless at the end and it's just, it's so smart and funny and absolutely filthy with the violence. And then there are these moments of sweetness or genuine reflection, and it's just so damn refreshing. I was never much of a Harley fan, but this show and then the Birds of Prey movie really made me fall in love with that character. Also side note, Michael Ironside who played General Katana and Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: He shows up in Harley Quinn doing the voice of Darkseid, which is a character he's been voicing since the nineties when he first started doing it for the Superman animated series. Jessika: Oh, damn. Mike: So, just a little bit of symmetry there. Mike: All right. So before we begin, I have to say that this episode wound up being a rabbit hole full of other rabbit holes that I kept going down. So, I want to give a little credit where it's due for a ton of my research. I really wound up leaning on two books: John Mosby's Fearful Symmetry [00:05:00]; and A Kind of Magic: The Making of Highlander by Jonathan Melville. Likewise, there's a YouTube series called Highlander heart hosted by Grant Kempster and Joe Dilworthand, and an associated Facebook community with the same name that were just invaluable for my crash course. And finally, I want to give special, thanks to Clinton Rawls, who runs Comics Royale, and Matt Kelly for taking the time to chat with me because they didn't have to, and they provided me with some really useful information for this episode. Jessika: Yeah, I'm super excited about what lies in store. What's really funny is I've actually, I feel like a kid before it test. Mike: Right? Jessika: like I'm a little nervous because I've been cramming so hard for this Mike: We both have. Jessika: No, you, especially you, especially like you should be much more nervous than me, Mike. No, I’m just kidding, please don't take that on. Oh, but yeah, no I'm super excited and really ready to talk about all of this stuff and learn more because I've just been consuming the media and the [00:06:00] comic books. But, you’re going to give me some back knowledge that's gonna blow my brain and I'm excited. Mike: Oh, well, I'll try to live up to that high expectation. Let's assume that you didn't know what the topic of this episode was. And if someone asked you what cult property from the 1980s. Spawned five movies, two TV series, a Saturday morning cartoon, an anime film, several video games, multiple tabletop games, audio plays, roughly a dozen novels, and four okay, technically six different comic books. What would your first answer be? Jessika: Oh, goodness. What's funny is probably not Highlander. I'd probably I would say like Batman, honestly, Mike: Yeah I would've gone with something along the lines of G.I. Joe. Jessika: Oh, yeah. Mike: Or some weird Saturday morning cartoon, something like that. I never would have guessed Highlander. I never would have assumed that. but it's just, it's really surprising to see how [00:07:00] much has been generated out of this initial movie. Were you fan of the movies or the show before we started bingeing everything for this episode? Jessika: So I was actually a fan of the show via my dad who had it on hadn't watched the films before, because I was born in 1986 fun fact. Mike: Right. Jessika: I was born when this thing was sent into the world. We both were at the same time, apparently. I didn't have that exact experience of growing up watching it, but he definitely had the TV show on in the nineties Mike: Okay. Jessika: So that was what I was familiar with and I loved it and I would run around chopping things; I'd be at work, I was actually like when I got older I'd be like, there can only be one, and I’d like have to like swipe at someone. Mike: It’s such an iconic line. Jessika: iIt is! it transcends. Absolutely. Mike: Yeah. I was pretty young when the movie came out and the show was how I became aware of it. And then when the show was airing, I was in high school. And then I became [00:08:00] aware that there was a movie that had inspired it. And so I was able to rent that when I was old enough to be trusted, to go rent movies on my own by my parents. Back when we couldn’t stream everything. Jessika: Oh my gosh. Mike: And there were rewind fees, Jessika: Oh, my gosh. Be kind rewind. Mike: Speaking of things from the eighties: it’s funny we'll talk about it later on, but the show really brought in, I think a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't have been fans. Before we start talking about the comic books, I really want to take a few minutes to talk about all the media and content that spun out of Highlander because it's a lot. And it was honestly in a couple of cases, really surprising. I didn't know about half of this stuff before I began researching for the episode, and then. Like I said, it was just constant rabbit holes that kept on leading me down more and more research paths. And it was really fun. But I want to talk about all this now. Jessika: Perfect. This is exactly what we're here for, and I think that people want to hear it too. [00:09:00] Mike: I hope so. Okay. So why don't you summarize Highlander? If you had to give an elevator pitch, Jessika: The film follows the past and present of Connor MacLeod, an immortal who is just one of many vying to be the sole victor in an age old battle, where in the end, there can only be one. Like very simply a lot more to it, but like how much of an elevator pitch. Mike: I think that's pretty simple. It's about an immortal who basically keeps on fighting his way through history and there's these really wonderful catch phrases that get us hooked. The movies got actually a really interesting origin story of its own. It was written by this guy named Gregory Widen when he was in his early twenties. That was when he wrote the initial screenplay. But he had already had a really interesting life up until then. He was one of the youngest paramedics in Laguna Beach at that point in [00:10:00] time. And then he went on to become a firefighter while he was still a teenager. By 1981, he'd also worked as a DJ and a broadcast engineer. And then he signed up for a screenwriting course at UCLA and he wrote this feature length script called Shadow Clan. And it would go through a number of changes before it became Highlander. But the core theme of an immortal warrior named Connor MacLeod wandering across the centuries is there. He wound up getting introduced to producers Bill Panzer, and Peter Davis who decided to option the film. And then they hired the screenwriters, Larry Ferguson and Peter Bellwood to rework the script into what we eventually had wind up in theaters. And once the movie was green-lit, they brought in Russell Mulcahey to direct it. And I vaguely knew that Mulcahey had been doing music videos before this, for the most part, he had one other cult movie ahead of time. It was a horror movie, I think, called Razorback. But I didn't realize which music videos he'd been making until I started doing all [00:11:00] this research. So I'm going to give you a small sampling and you're going to tell me if you've heard of these. Jessika: Okay. Sure sure sure. Mike: Okay. The Vapors “Turning Japanese”. Jessika: Uh, yeah. Mike: Yeah, okay. The Buggles “Video Killed the Radio Star”. Jessika: Wow. Yes. Mike: Duran Duran Duran’s “Rio”. Jessika: Wow. Mike: And Elton John's “I'm Still Standing”. Jessika: Yeahwow. That's actually a variety of characters. Mike: Right? But also those all really iconic music videos. Like not only songs, but music, videos cause those were all in the very early days. And the dude's entire portfolio is just iconic. If you think about the music videos that really defined the genre Jessika: Yeah, sometimes you just got it, I guess. Huh? Mike: He has a lot of those music video elements. A lot of times in the movie, it feels like a music video, like when Brenda's being chased down the hall by the Kurgan and it's got all that dramatic lighting, or that opening shot where they're in the [00:12:00] wrestling match and you see the camera flying through everything. Jessika: Yes! Mike: That was wild. That was really unusual to see camera work like that back then. The movie was distributed by 20th century Fox. And I think at this point, We'd be more surprised of 20th century Fox did a good job of marketing weird and cool, because they really botched it. They wound up forcing cuts to the movie that created really weird plot holes because they didn't feel that audiences needed it or what would understand it, and they wanted to make it simpler, but it really made things more confusing. European audiences on the other hand, really embraced the film because they got a much better version. So case in point, I'm going to show you the two main posters for it. This is the American poster for the movie. Jessika: Mmhmm. Oh, wow, he’s scary. Wow wow wow, okay. Before I even say any of the words, what you first see is Connor [00:13:00] MacLeod, but it's this awful grainy picture of him. He looks like there's something wrong with his face, which he shouldn't necessarily. And he looks like he's about to murder someone. He's like glaring off into the distance. And at the top it says, Oh, it's in black and white, by the way. at the top it says, He fought his first battle on the Scottish Highlands in 1536, he will fight his greatest battle on the streets of New York city in 1986. His name is Connor MacLeod. He is immortal Highlander! Credits at the bottom, rated R, absolutely rated R. Mike: Also, I feel like featuring original songs by Queen does not get the billing that it should. Jessika: I agree. I jammed my way through that film and this just the whole series, [00:14:00] actually the whole franchise I jammed my way through. Mike: Yeah. And if you listen to the kind of Magic album that is basically the unofficial soundtrack to the movie, and it's so good I don't know how they got those perpetual rights to Princes of the Universe, did. Every time I hear that song, I get a little thrill up my spine. All right. So here's the poster though for the European release. Jessika: All right. So, Ooh, this is totally different. This is Whoa. This is way more exciting. Okay. First of all, it's full Color, my friends, right in the middle in red it says Highlander right under it “There can only be one” in yellow. Oh it's amazing. There's a little sticker at the bottom that says featuring original songs by queen. Look it, trying to sell it, I love it. And then there's Connor MacLeod in the center of the screen [00:15:00] dramatically head back eyes closed screaming his sword thrusts forward and behind him is the Kurgan, oh my gosh so good. It's so - Oh, and a backdrop of New York city. All in lights. It's beautiful. Mike: Yeah. It’s one of those things where basically, that documentary that we watched seduced by Argentina, they talk about that where they're just like 20th century Fox fucked us. Jessika: And I didn't realize how much until, because I did watch that as well. And I'm like how bad could it be? But I that's pretty bad. It's a pretty big difference. It's like watching, that'd be like going, expecting to see like psycho or something. Mike: Honestly, I keep on thinking of Firefly and Fox and how they just totally botched the marketing for that show and then the release, and issues with Joss Wheden aside. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It’s one of those [00:16:00] things where again, it's a really beloved cult property with a really devoted fan base, even, 5 years after it was released, shit, almost 20. Jessika: And I do love Firefly, again, Whedon aside. Mike: I do too. Jessika: And it makes me a little sad think about it because it had so much potential. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Oh, it's so rough. It's rough to see. Mike: Yeah. What were your overall thoughts on the movie now that you've seen it because you hadn't seen it before this, correct? Jessika: No. I had only seen the TV show and probably rightfully so, because that was much less violent. I mean, much less graphically violent. They were still beheading motherfucker every episode, but, versus the film, which is like blood and like half a head and wow, there, it goes the head. But I actually really liked the movie. It was adventurous, it was thrilling and told a fairly cohesive and interesting storyline which unfortunately had an ending. But it still took us on an emotional journey. [00:17:00] Mike: Yeah, and I feel the same way. Jessika:: And how all the camp that I love from the 1980s and the special effects are just chefs, kiss love it. Mike: There is something so wonderful about the special effects from the 1980s, because they're so earnest all the time. And at the same time they look so cheesy by comparison now. Jessika: But you can tell they were trying so hard. It's almost like a little kid who's just learning to finger paint and they walk up and they're like, I did this thing. It's so good. You're like, it is really good. It's really good for where you're at. Mike: Yeah, exactly. Highlander is very much a quintessential eighties film to me, and there's both that nostalgia factor, but also it's a pretty tight little film. It doesn't really try to do anything too grandiose or too world-building because I don't think they expected to really make the sequels that they wound up doing. Which speaking of which we should discuss the sequels. [00:18:00] Mike: Like, I feel like you can’t discussion without talking about the sequels. And honestly the first time I ever heard of Highlander as a brand really was when I was visiting family in Texas And we were watching a Siskel & Ebert episode where they were thrashing Highlander II. Jessika: Dude, Siskel and Ebert I'm sure hated this. This does not surprise me in the least. Mike: I don't remember much about it, I just remember being like, oh Sean Connery's in a movie, well that's cool. Because my parents had raised me on all of the Sean Connery James Bond movies. Jessika: Yeah casting, come on. Why? Why? They had a French dude playing a Scottish guy and a Scottish guy playing a Spanish Egyptian guy. It's. Mike: I believe label was a Hispaniola Egyptian. They kinda darkened up Sean Connery a little bit too. I'm not sure. Jessika: It felt that way. I was just hoping he had just been under the tanning beds, but no, I think you're right. [00:19:00] Mike: Highlander II was definitely the most infamous of the sequels. And I mean a huge part of that is because it had such a batshit production and there’d been so many different versions of it. It was so bad that Russell Mulcahey reportedly walked out of the film premiere after only 15 minutes. There's this great documentary that you and I both watched on YouTube, it's split up into a bunch parts, but it was a documentary they made for the special edition of Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It was the third release of the movie that they put out because the first one was basically the bonding company for the films. Investors took over the production and assembly of the movie due to the fact that Argentina, where they were filming. And they had gone to Argentina because a, it was gorgeous, but B because it was supposedly going to be a third of the cost Jessika: Yeah. Mike: To make a movie there than it would elsewhere. Argentina’s economy collapsed and went through hyperinflation. And as a result, everything just went haywire. But they went back years later and they not only recut the [00:20:00] movie, but they refilled or added in certain scenes I think four or five years later. And then on top of that, they did the special edition a few years after that, where they redid the special effects. And I don't know it's kind of funny because it's not a bad movie now. It's not terrible. I feel it's an enjoyable film in its own way. But it's also funny where you watch that documentary and they're talking about the stuff that they're so proud of. Russell Mulcahey was talking about how proud he was of that love scene. I'm using this in quotes, love scene between Virginia Madsen and and Christopher Lambert where they just decided to do it up against the wall of an alley? Jessika: That’s always an interesting choice to me. Like you really cannot wait. Mike: Yeah. And then he was like, I thought that was a really hot scene. And I got to sit there and I'm like, I don't, I can't view this through the lens of, a 20 something guy in the 1990s. I don't know what my interpretation of it would have been then, [00:21:00] but watching it now watching it for the first time when I was in my twenties and the, in the early aughts, I just was like, this is weird and sorta dumb. And also they don't really have a lot of chemistry, but okay. Jessika: Yeah, it just kind of happens. They're just like, Oh, here you are. Mike: Yeah Right I don't know. At the same time it was cool to see they did all those really practical, special effects where they actually had them whipping around on the wires on like the weird flying skateboards and stuff. I thought that was cool. Jessika: I thought that was neat too. And how he was like, yeah, I actually got on top of the elevator and he was excited. Now he got on top of the elevator. Mike: And then they basically just dropped it down, like that's wild. So how about Highlander three? Jessika: Ahhh… Mike: Yeah, that’s kinda where I am Jessika: It’s very forgettable in my book. Mike: I feel like you could wipe it from the timeline and no one would care. Really, it felt like a retread of the first movie, but with the shittier villain in a way less interesting love story. honestly, it was a bummer because Mario [00:22:00] Van Peebles, the guy who plays that the illusionist I can't even remember his name. It was that forgettable. Jessika: Yeah, no, I can't either. Mike: Mario van Peebles is a really good actor and he's done a lot of really cool stuff. And it just, it felt like he was the NutraSweet version of the Kurgan Jessika: I like that. Yes. Yes. Mike: All of the mustache twirling, none of the substance. Jessika: It leaves a little bit of a weird taste in your mouth. Mike: Right. Splenda Kurgan! Moving on Highlander, Endgame. Jessika: What I do like about this film is that in both the TV series, as well as the film, there is the actual crossover. Connor shows up in Duncan's world and Duncan shows up in Connor's world and there is that continuity, which is good. And I do appreciate that because, before I got into this, I assumed that the character was interchangeable and we were just seeing different actors James [00:23:00] Bond situation. And when I went back and realized like, Oh no, he's his own character, they're blah, you know. Mike: I dunno I saw this in theaters I love the show and I appreciated that it felt like an attempt to merge the movies in the series and of the movies, I feel like this actually has the strongest action scenes. There's that bit where Adrian Paul faces off against Donnie Yen. And I was like, that's gotta be really cool to be able to sit there and show your kids much later in life: hey, I got to do a martial arts scene with Donnie Yen and he didn't kill me in the movie. that's pretty dope. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Again, it felt underwhelming. It just wasn't all that interesting. And also I spent years being mad at that movie because the trailer brought me into the theater expecting something way different than what we were going to get Jessika: Okay. And I don't know that I saw the trailer. Mike: It has, it has a bunch of scenes with Magic where Connor and Duncan jumped through a portal [00:24:00]. Jessika: What? Mike: And a sword gets thrown at Jacob Kell and he catches it midair. And then he does something else where he's holding a sphere where you see Connor's face screaming and then it shatters. Jessika: What’s with all this weird, extra scene stuff in these trailers. I don't understand. Mike: Yeah, it turns out that this hasn't, this has never really been officially confirmed, but reading between the lines yeah, it’s been confirmed. They basically filmed extra scenes just to make it more appealing for people. So they would show up to the theaters. Like they filmed scenes, effectively they filmed scenes just for the trailer the director when he was asked about it in Fearful Symmetry. He basically said, yeah, I know there was some stuff that they filmed for marketing afterwards, and I wasn't involved with that. And then I think it was Peter Davis that was asked about this for the book. And he basically said, Oh, this is a really standard practice. People, or accompanies [00:25:00] film stuff for for marketing purposes all the time. And that's where he left it. Jessika: Oh, okay. to know. Mike: I was really grumpy about that, but that said I've softened a little since then. Do we even want to talk about the Source? Cause I feel like that's something that we shouldn't talk about in polite company. Jessika: No pass. Mike: Okay. Jessika: It happened? Mike: It happened, it was a thing that happened that was going to be a trilogy. They were planning to make that into a trilogy of movies. Jessika: Ohh rough times. Mike: Oh it's real bad. I don't think you were able to watch this, but Highlander, the search for vengeance. It's the anime. Jessika: No, I couldn't find it. Mike: Yeah. It's not available for streaming and it really it's really a bummer because it's actually pretty good. I'm not quite sure how to qualify it because it's not a live action movie and it doesn't star Duncan or Connor, but it's a full length anime. It's a full length movie in its own right. It focuses on Colin MacLeod who he’s [00:26:00] an immortal, who's technically part of the MacLeod clan. He's born as a Roman Britain and then he's adopted into the MacLeod clan after he fights alongside them later on. They keep on doing this. They keep on going back to dystopian SciFutures, which I kinda like, Jessika: I love, bless their little hearts. Mike: Yeah. A lot of the story actually takes place in this post-apocalyptic 22nd century, New York. And I haven't seen this in about a decade because it's not available on streaming. I don't have the DVD anymore. I really should pick it up before it goes out of print. But the movie fucking slaps. It was directed by Yoshiaki Kawajiri, he was really big in the nineties. He did Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust. He's known for really cool looking movies that are also really violent at the same time. Like you look at his characters and you're like, Oh yeah, no, they all look interchangeable because they're also similar one movie to another, Jessika: Oh, I see. Mike: But they're really cool. And the movie was written by David Abramowitz, who was the head writer [00:27:00] for the TV show. So it felt like a pretty legit Highlander story. Honestly, if we had to talk about this and ask which of these movies or the sequels were our favorites, I would probably say the Search for Vengeance. Because I loved it so much, but since that wasn't a theatrical release, we'll exclude that and you didn't get to watch it. Of the sequels, which did you enjoy most? Jessika: Mike, why don’t you go first. Mike: Okay. I'm a little torn, I guess I enjoyed Endgame mainly because it feels like part of he in quotes, real Highlander story, I guess it's the least terrible of the sequels. And it brought in my favorite characters. The final version of Highlander II, is I don't know. I don't hate it. It honestly feels like a cool dystopian cyberpunk story with some bizarre Highlander lore shoehorned in, but at the same time, it's not the worst thing I've ever watched. How about you? Jessika: Funny [00:28:00] enough, I was going to say Highlander II, but maybe just a bit more so if it were its own standalone movie and not try to be a part of the Highlander franchise. The idea of the shield is super interesting and I think they could have elaborated more on the lead-up and the resolution of that issue rather than having to also make it about the Immortals in their forever game. Mike: Yeah, I agree. How do you feel about moving onto the TV series? Jessika: Oh, I am pro. Mike: Okay. I personally feel like this is the property that sucks all the air out of the room when you're talking about Highlander. Jessika: Oh no. Mike: Yeah, I mentioned that this is how I really got introduced to the brand. I started watching it in high school, around season three, which was when it was really starting to get good. The first two seasons I feel were kind of when they were ironing out all the rough spots. But I wound up watching it through the end. So if you're listening to this podcast and you have never seen the [00:29:00] show Highlander, the series ran for six seasons, which is a good length of time for any TV show. And it followed the adventures of Duncan, who was another member of the MacLeod clan. He was a distant cousin of Connor. And the show bounced between Seacouver, which is a fictionalized version of Vancouver in Paris. And it basically retcon things so that the original movie didn't end with The Quickening, but that the battle between the Kurgan and Connor was it's implied, it was the start of The Gathering. That's my interpretation of it. Jessika: That was what I got too. Mike: Yeah. And Christopher Lambert, he shows up in the pilot to help set things up and get them moving. But I think that's the only time we ever really seen him on the show. Jessika: Correct. He's really just an intro. He's in that first episode only. Mike: You have rewatched it as a have I . We haven't watched the entire series all the way through, but we've watched a lot of episodes. Jessika: Correct. Mike: How do you feel [00:30:00] it measures up today? compared to that nostalgic view that we had before, Jessika: I had a lot of fun watching it, actually. definitely super cheesy. I don't love all of the characters I watched a lot of the first season, then I bounced around I think I did the top, like 25 on a list that you sent me. But Duncan’s just so codependent sometimes with his characters and it's like the one time the Tessa goes on a hike by herself, she gets kidnapped by an, a mortal and it’s like, oh my God, she can't even go on a fucking hike, are you joking me? And the one time he goes to the store by himself, he gets kidnapped and it's like, oh, come the fuck on you guys. Mike: Yeah, I feel like it generally holds up pretty well. It's a little uneven, but when it hits , it really hits. And it's a lot of fun. And considering that it was a relatively low budget show on basic cable in the early to mid-nineties, there's a lot of stuff that has aged way worse. [00:31:00] Jessika:: Absolutely. It exceeded my expectations on the rewatch, for sure. Mike: Yeah, and I have to say that one really cool thing about Highlander is it's got a really large female fan base. And I suspect that the show is really responsible for that. Jessika: I would agree. There's a few reasons. Mike: Are six of those reasons. Duncan's abs? Jessika: Like 10 of those reasons are all the times he gets surprised in a bathtub. I know I messaged you while I was watching them, because I was like Duncan got surprised in a bathtub again. Mike: I don't remember which episode it was, but there's one where he is surprised while he's in a bathrobe and he's got, it's not even tighty whities, it’s like a bikini brief, and watching that, I was just sitting there going, thank you for this gift. Thank you. Thank you for this visual treat that you have given us in the middle of my very boring work day. Jessika: It’s [00:32:00] also that there are such a wide variety of female characters. I would say, I\it’s not just the other female person he seeing or whatever, the love interest, there are other female Immortals and they a lot more frequently than they do in the films. I can't recall if they have any female immortals in the films. Mike: They do in Endgame. Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I thought there was, there were some in there, but that’s tailing into, I mean yeah. Mike: Yeah. And the Source had them too, but meh. Jessika: Oh yeah. Mike: I will say that the show was pretty good about writing pretty strong female characters, I felt. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And we'll talk about Amanda in a little bit, but I have to say that I really liked how she was written and how Elizabeth Grayson played her through the original series and then her own afterwards. I dunno. I, what do you think is the sexiest thing about Duncan MacLeod? I'm curious. Jessika: He seems [00:33:00] really like trustworthy, but like and sexy trustworthy. It's like, he'd be the dude. I called if some guys were fucking with me. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: I kept on thinking about how there's this Tumblr post that's been going around the internet, regularly, and it's this discussion about which Disney men women find the sexiest guys always thinks it's Gaston. Jessika: Oh lord, why? Mike: It’s that male power fantasy thing where they're just like, oh no, like he's like really charming. And he's really muscly. And the counterargument from women is usually A no Gaston sucks and B we all like Roger from 101 Dalmatians. Jessika: Oh yeah. Roger. Mike: Which, Roger is very much my personal role model. The dude's a talented musician, he loves animals and he's got that great, a snark where he literally is trolling the villain when she comes to his house with a motherfucking trombone from upstairs [00:34:00]. And I think Duncan's a little like that. Like he's cultured and he's worldly and he's got this wicked sense of humor. And he's also the type of dude who has no problem reciting poetry in public or making his partner breakfast in bed. Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. Mike: So it just it was something that came to mind while I was rewatching all this stuff. Jessika: Yeah. just as like a wholesome guy. Mike: Right? Jessika: He always has good intentions. So that's actually what it feels like. He's always coming at things with good intentions. Mike: Yeah, and he's not perfect, but he's always trying to do the right thing, which I really appreciate. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: What was your favorite episode? Jessika: I went back and forth. I really like the Homeland episode, and like I said, I've really only watched a good chunk of most of season what I would say, and then so kind of bounced around, but season four, episode one. It was really sweet to see [00:35:00] Duncan take the obligatory trip back to his Homeland to pay respects. And it also had a good lesson in not judging a book by its cover as the main character assumes that Duncan is just an ancestry tourist, which was super interesting. She was super hating on it but I was like this is interesting instead of visiting what once was literally his home during formative years. So it was just such a wild thing to see her be like, what are you doing near those graves? And he can't really be like, they were my parents because you cannot even read them. They are so old. Mike: The funny thing is I didn't rewatch that episode during our refresher, but I remember watching that episode when I was about 15 or so. Because it's stuck out to me. Jessika: It’s really good. And of course, Duncan, he always has a good intention. The whole reason he went back was because he figured out that somebody had been [00:36:00] pilfering graves Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And he had to return what was in this grave. Mike: I know he's making the rest of us look bad. So mine is, it's unusual suspects. It's from season six, which I feel is actually pretty weak season overall. And it's this really silly one-off episode, starring Roger Daltry of the Who fame. He plays Hugh Fitzcairn, which is a character that he shows up in plays a couple of times throughout the series. And at this point in time in the story, he was dead, but it's a flashback to the 19 teens or 1920s. 1920s, because it ends with the stock market crash, but it's a take on the British country, house murder, mystery genre, and it's really fun. And it was just this really refreshing moment of levity after what I felt our run of really heavy, and in my opinion, not very good episodes. The end of season five and the beginning of season [00:37:00] six are all about Duncan confronting this demon named Aramon and it's weird and it's not very good. And I really don't enjoy it. This is all my opinion. I'm sure that I'm insulting some Highlander fan who absolutely loves this, but it's a fun episode in its own. And then it's a good moment after one that I didn't really enjoy. And so it's got that extra refreshing bonus. I just, I want to note, it's really funny to me how intertwined Highlander has always been with rock and roll and music in general, because they had Mulcahey who do it, doing all these music videos and stuff. And then they kept on having musicians show up as guest stars. I think it was there's a character named Xavier St. Cloud, I think who was played by one of the guys from, again, I think, Fine Young Cannibals? Jessika: Yeah, I think I actually watched that episode. Mike: I think he was using nerve gas to kill people. Jessika: Yes I did watch that episode. That was a wild one. Yeah. Mike: Yeah, and I think he shows up later on too. [00:38:00] I can't remember but anyway, I really appreciate that they gave Roger Daltry of all people, this character, and he just really had fun with it and they kept bringing him back. Jessika: Yeah. He was a good character every episode he was in my other favorites was the one where they had Mary Shelley and he was in that one too. I believe. Mike: I think so. Yeah. No, it was, the series was really fun, and I liked that we can sit there and pull all these episodes just from memory that we really liked. Jessika: Absolutely. Mike: So season six , they were trying to find a new actress who could carry her own Highlander show. And so they tested out a bunch of different actresses in season six and gave them either really strong guest appearances, or they were basically the main character for episodes. But they wound up not going with any of them. They went with Elizabeth Grayson and gave her the Raven where she reprised her roles Amanda. Did you watch any of that? Did you get a chance to? Jessika: I watched the [00:39:00] first and the last episode of season one, I can only find the first season. Is there only one? Mike: There’s only one season, it didn’t get picked up again. Jessika: Oh then there you go. Then I could have only, I know I was scratching my head. Worried about where else do I find this? Mike: Well, and it ends on a cliff-hanger. Jessika: Yeah, exactly. That's where I was like, let's go. Mike: It ends with Nick becoming immortal. Jessika: Oh, see, I didn't quite finish it. Cause I was hurriedly setting it up in the background. Mike: Yeah it was fine. I thought Elizabeth Grayson is really charming in that role, but at the same time, there wasn't a lot of chemistry initially between Amanda and Nick, I felt at the very beginning. Jessika: I agree, not in the first episode. Mike: By the end of the season, it was there, and I think they were also, as is the case with most shows first seasons, they were trying really hard to figure out what they wanted to do. And so originally it was a cop show with an immortal, which there are certainly worse pitches that I've heard. Jessika: Yeah. No, I agree. Mike: But yeah. sad that it didn't get to go further [00:40:00] Jessika: I'm tempted to go back and watch all of these things. I may have to do a pallet cleanse of something different. I may have to go back to my Marvel watching. Mike: On top of this, there was a Saturday morning cartoon called Highlander, the series or Highlander, the animated series, and it was set in the future. It's in a weird alternate timeline. It stars another MacLeod. It's fine It's a Saturday morning cartoon. I didn't even care enough to really go back and watch it because being that great. They did some interesting stuff. Like they brought Ramirez back if I remember, right. And then they also had a thing where instead of beheading other Immortals, the main character had an ability where he could be voluntarily given their power. Jessika: Oh. Mike: So he had all of their knowledge and power. And again, it’s again in a dystopian future where another immortal has taken over the world. Jessika: Wow. They just love their dystopian future. Mike: They really do. But yeah, it's fine. I think it's streaming on Amazon prime. I was just so focused on everything else that I didn't get a chance to go and [00:41:00] rewatch it. Jessika: Huh, good to know. Mike: We're going to go over all the other various pieces of media real quick. and then we've got one side tangent and then we're going to go through comic books, but. Jessika: I'm so excited. Mike: Books, Highlander wound up having a pretty substantial literary footprint. The original movie had the official novelization. There wasn't really anything after that until the show came out and then the show had 10 novels and an anthology and an official behind the scenes kind of book called the Watchers Guide and it's full of essays and interviews and photos. And since then, there've been a couple of non-fiction books, like Fearful Symmetry, which is about everything Highlander related. And it's almost like a textbook, but it's pretty good. And then there's also A Kind of Magic, which is more focused on making of the original movie. And those are both actually really good. I liked them a lot. They were really easy to read. [00:42:00] There were audio plays, which I keep on forgetting audio plays are a thing at this point, but it's by this company called Big Finish in the UK. They do tie-in audio dramas for television properties. Most famously they do Dr Who. They wound up doing two seasons of audio plays. The first had Adrian Paul reprise his role as Duncan and they take place after the series ended. And then also after the events of Endgame, you can't really find them anymore. Because they just, the license expired so they aren't selling them as far as I'm aware. Jessika: That's super interesting though. Dang. Mike: Yeah. And then the second season focuses on the four horsemen Immortals, remember Jessika: Okay. Mike: Do you remember them? Jessika: I sure do. Mike: Because we were talking about this a little bit, but it was all about Methos and the other guys that he hung out with when he was effectively, a comic book villain who would've if he’d had a mustache to twirl, he would have done it. Jessika: So quickly. Yes. Mike: I thought that was really interesting. There were a couple of people in the Highlander Heart [00:43:00] group who talked about it and they seem to really like them. I can't comment, but it was really neat. Games, this is the one that's really interesting. Highlander actually has been turned into a number of games over the years. There's a couple of tabletop games we're going to breeze through. So there was two different card games in a board game. One of the card games was released back in the nineties, it was a collectible card game. And this was right when Magic: The Gathering was really hot and everybody was trying to get in on that action. And then recently there's a new one called Highlander: The Duel. And it's a deck-building game where you play as Connor or the Kurgan going up against each other. And just a couple of years ago, there was a board game that got kick-started, it was in 2018 and it's this fast paced game for two to six players. The reviews across the web were pretty positive. And again, it's one of those things where it's Immortals battling for that mysterious prize. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: But it's cool. Jessika: Nice. Mike: I’m actually pretty surprised [00:44:00] we never got like a tabletop RPG because they are not precious about applying the license for Highlander to stuff. I'm amazed that nobody went to them and said, Hey, we can make this cool historical RPG where we sorta start having players wake up and then they have flashbacks or whatever. And Jessika: Yeah Oh that would have been cool Yeah Mike: Right? But yeah we never got anything like that which I was really I actually that was the one thing I expected and was surprised to see that we never got. Okay. So we're going to go into mini tangent with video games even though they aren't technically related to comics. The first game for Highlander was a 1986 tie-in release for home computers. It was a really simple fighting title. It wasn't well received. It was apparently pretty bad. So after that the animated series had a tie in called Highlander: Last of the MacLeods. It was released on the Atari Jaguar CD console. If you remember that. Do you remember the Atari Jaguar? Jessika: Oh my god, no. I don't. [00:45:00] Mike: It kinda got lost in the shuffle in the early to mid nineties of all the different consoles that were coming out. But you can find footage of this on YouTube and it's one of those early 3d games. And so it got a lot of praise for his exploration elements and animated video sequences, but it also got a lot of criticism for its controls in combat. After that there was actually going to be an MMO called Highlander, The Gathering. And it was in development by a French studio called Kalisto entertainment, which was honestly weird because Kalisto's catalog up until now were mostly middling single-player games. They'd gotten famous for a series called Nightmare Creatures, but they also did a Fifth Element racing game on PS2 that I had and was actually pretty fun. Anyway, Kalisto went bankrupt before the MMO could come out. Jessika: Oh! Mike: And none of the folks who, yeah, that's video games. Jessika: Fair enough. Mike: So they went bankrupt. The MMO hadn't come out yet. And the folks who wound up with the rights afterwards just decided to kill the project. There's [00:46:00] one other game. That's become the source of a lot of speculation. And it's only known as Highlander: The Game it basically came about because Davis Panzer productions that's, the guys who own the rights to Highlander, and SCI, which was this holding company that owned a bunch of video game groups. They decided to ink a deal, to make a Highlander game. They announced that they basically had done a partnership back in like 2004, 2005. And at the time SCI owned Eidos who was the publisher that gave us Tomb Raider. So they were a pretty big name. The game itself was formally announced by Eidos in 2008 and the development was being handled by another French developer called Widescreen Games. It was going to be an action role-playing game. It would star a new Immortal named Owen MacLeod. The story was going to be written again by David Abramowitz and that added some [00:47:00] serious legitimacy to the project for fans. Actually, why don’t you read the summary. Jessika: Would love to my pleasure. Summary: Owen is captured and enslaved by Romans who force him to compete as a gladiator. During this time, Owen dies only to come back to life. Methos, the oldest living immortal approaches Owen to be his mentor. He teaches Owen about the game and how he and other Immortals can only be slain by beheading. As with other immortal MacLeods Owen is pursued throughout his life by a nemesis. This enemy proves to be extremely powerful. One that Owen is unable to defeat Owen learns of a magical stone, fragments of which are scattered all over the world. Throughout the game, Owen embarks upon a quest to recover these fragments and restore the stone in an attempt to gain the power to overcome his foe. [00:48:00] So dramatic. I love it. Mike: What's Highlander without any drama? But that sounds rad right? Jessika: Oh, it sounds amazing. Mike: The game was announced with a trailer in 2008 that really only showed some of the environments from different eras and then it ended with an image of Owen, but it looked promising. And then there wasn't much else after a couple of years of pretty much nothing but radio silence, Eidos wound up canceling the game and that's where a lot of the speculation has started. There's not a lot of information on Highlander: The Game. I keep waiting for one of those gaming history YouTubers to get ahold of an old dev kit and then do a video with a build, but that hasn't happened yet. So really it's all kind of speculation and wishful thinking about what could have been. And it also seems like some of the details are getting muddied as time goes on. Like Fearful Symmetry talks about the game of it but they [00:49:00] have the segment. And again I want you to read this. Jessika: Sure sure. The gam was so far along in its development stages that segments including backdrops and some of the gameplay options were presented at a Highlander Worldwide event in Los Angeles 2006 and got a very positive reaction. The beautifully rendered backdrops were almost movie quality and included the likes of Pompei, a dark forest in the Highlands, New York, and Japan as gameplay locations and introduced us to another MacLeod, Owen, the same surname but a much earlier vintage. Mike: Yeah, so, I think Mosby is a little overly enthusiastic about all of this, and this is because I think Mosby doesn't have much familiarity with how game development works. It sounds like they had concept art on display and were discussing gameplay [00:50:00] rather than showcasing a build of the game. Concept art and design discussions are things that happen very early in game development. But if you're an outsider, looking in this stuff could easily be interpreted as things being much further along than they were. Jessika: Ah. Mike: Yeah. Now that said, I did work in video games for almost a decade, and a few of my coworkers were actually involved with Highlander the game. Jessika: What? Mike: Every one of them over the years has told me the cancellation was a mercy killing. And again, this is from multiple sources, so I'm not going to name or identify because, I don't want to make things awkward for them. But basically the game was garbage . It's not really surprising to hear cause widescreen never really made a good game, the best reception that any of their titles got was just kinda mixed. But earlier this week, I actually called one of my friends. Who'd been [00:51:00] attached to the project because I wanted to get more information about this game before we recorded. Jessika: We need to get you a new shovel, you dug so deep for this. Mike: With both hands. But, they confirmed what I've been hearing from other people the gameplay itself wasn't just bad. It was boring. The biggest problem was it didn't know what kind of a game it wanted to be. Basically, it was trying to do everything all at once. There were a bunch of traversal elements, which didn't really make a lot of sense. Like why would you climb a Manhattan skyscraper when you're a roided out dude with a sword? Couldn't you just take the elevator? Or I don't know the stairs? There was going to be a bunch of Magic elements in the gameplay, which, isn't really, that's not really a thing in Highlander. There's that fantasy element because we're talking about Immortals who can't die unless you cut off their heads, but generally Magic isn't a part of the accepted Canon. And then the combat, what they were aiming to do something like [00:52:00] God of war, which was really big at the time. But, it wasn't great. My friend also pointed out that Owen looked like a bodybuilder, but his fashion sense was from that industrial metal scene of the late nineties, which neither of those things really fits with the Highlander aesthetic because Adrian Paul was arguably the most in shape of the Highlander actors. But even that was, he was a dude who was like, yeah, I could achieve that if I was really good about my diet and then just worked out aggressively but not like Hugh Jackman does for his Wolverine roles. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Mike: So I'm going to send you a screenshot of what Owen looked like in the key art the initial title it does. Jessika: What? It looks like Criss Angel. Mike: Right. And they're trying to recreate that iconic pose of The Quickening from the first movie that Connor does at the very end where he's getting raised up and, by the rails of Lightning, or the wires [00:53:00] of lightning. Jessika: Yeah, I get what they were trying to do. Mike: Yeah,I wanna know, what the fuck is up with those weird straps with rings that are going down his legs. Jessika: I don't really know, I was trying to figure that out myself. So just so that everyone can really get the picture that we're getting here and you'll, you might understand why it's taken me so long to describe it. I had to take it all in first. Mike: Yeah, it’s a ride. Jessika: It’s all very monochromatic. And the background is of course, a cut of the statue of Liberty, the backdrop of parts of New York that I'm sure aren't even next to each other, which is always funny. And then what is this? Is this the new guy, or is this supposed to be Duncan? Mike: Yeah, this is the new guy, Jessika: It’s Owen. Mike: Yeah. It's Owen. And then Connor and Duncan were supposed to appear, supposedly. I know Peter Wingfield was recording his lines for Methos. Jessika: Well, if they haven't killed off Methos that makes sense. And I don't know in the series if they have, and maybe Duncan makes [00:54:00] sense if he hasn't died yet, but. Mike: Yeah they can't kill off Methos, Methos was my first gay crush. Jessika: Yeah. He's. Slightly problematic in a couple episodes, but he's a great character overall. But he's very Chriss Angel, he's wearing like a trench coat and that has to be some sort of a lace undershirt or something. Mike: lAnd he’s got like a weird really, like baggy leather pants. Jessika: Yes. Which cannot be comfortable. It's doing this weird pooching thing in the front. Mike: Yeah, and then I think I saw another screenshot where it looks like he's wearing skater shoes tennis shoes as well. Jessika: Oh, Vans Off the Wall, man. Mike: Just once I want to see a MacLeod in the movies with a good fashion sense. Jessika: Yeah, I mentioned that I wanted to cosplay as Duncan, which overall would be a great idea. But then I was looking through his outfits and I'm like, what do I wear? Do I wear this weird white tank top with these like acid wash jeans [00:55:00] and a belt? Or is this the one where I'm wearing like five shirts and a long jacket? Is it that day? Mike: You know who he looks like that guy, Canus. Jessika: Yes! Yes, does. He has the lace shirt and everything. Mike: And the dog collar. Jessika: Oh my god, it was so funny. I told you, I think it was trying to be edgy. Mike: Yeah, and instead it comes off as really queer-coded. Jessika: It really does though. I know, my little queer brain was like bling. Mike: Yeah, It feels like they weren't really getting the essence of what Highlander actually was and who these guys were, because usually the Highlander characters are a little bit more believable and ordinary because that's the whole idea is that they're walking among us and we have no idea unless they tell us. Okay. On top of all this. So remember how I mentioned that trailer was just showcasing environments for the [00:56:00] game. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: There was a reason for that. The reason was that they couldn’t get the character models to work. Jessika: Oh! Mike: So the shot of Owen at the end it's actually just animated key art it's the same it's the same art that you just saw. It's that image. It was just slightly animated. And then they released a couple of screenshots for the game, but apparently they were really heavily photo-shopped well, beyond industry standards. So, it was one of those things where, this was a turd and it needed to be flushed. And it finally did. But Widescreen went under about a year after the game was formally announced. They were working on another big project and apparently that got taken away, and as a result, it just caused the studio to implode. By this point in time Square Enix the guys do all the final fantasy games had bought Eidos and they formally canceled it. We're not sure why exactly, my guess is that it was probably, they just looked at cost it would take to finish this game and then the [00:57:00] amount that it would need to sell in order to be profitable or to meet their sales expectations for it and they just thought it wasn't worth it. But yeah, my friend actually said they were embarrassed to work on it and they would have been fine even if it had been an average game, but it was just bad. Even one of those kind of middling average games, I think that would have been fine, that would have lived up to the Highlander bar. Finally, there's that Highlander game that spark unlimited was working on. I never even heard a whisper about this until. We watched that episode of Highlander Heart focusing on video games, and they brought Craig Allen on to talk about the project. Based on what we know now, I think this might be why Square Enix was holding onto the rights for another year after they shut down Highlander, the game, just because they had this other title, theoretically in development or very early development. Based on the footage that they have, it looks like they had at least done enough development work to put together a vertical slice that they could show for pitch [00:58:00] purposes and at conventions. But I thought it was really promising looking overall. What did you think? Jessika: I thought it did look really interesting the game play itself I did like the idea of having a female Highlander. That being said, they had this whole concept about what Craig Allen was calling beautiful damage. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And it was this whole thing about, oh it was the first female Highlander and her looks go when she gets damaged, and that's her whole motivation is to stay pretty. And I just, that gave me a huge headache, and it of course was super male-gazey I mean, the game itself seemed that way. Mike: It was weird because I would love to see women and Highlander being built a little bit more like warriors, like a little bit more muscly, which would be in keeping with people who battle across the centuries. [00:59:00] They don't need to be super jacked like the Amazons in Wonder Woman, but making them look like stick thin suicide girl, punk rock chick from the late aughts. Didn't quite gel with me. I understood what he was talking about though, because that was the thing where they were starting to do permanent cosmetic damage in video games. That was something that was really big in the Batman Arkham games. Every time that you got knocked out, you'd come back and you'd have a little bit more of your outfit chipped apart. So, after a while Batman's looking pretty ragged and you realize maybe I'm not as good at this game as I think I am. Jessika: Yeah And the concept itself is really interesting It just I guess was the way it was phrased by this person. And it very much was he was so proud of the fact that it was the first Highlander female in a video game. And then everything was just like so incredibly sexist. I was excited that I wasn't Mike: We're also viewing it, with the lens of 2021 at this point. At that time, [01:00:00] that was before they had relaunched Tomb Raider, in 2013, 2014, where they made her much more realistic. She was still very fit, but she wasn't the Lara Croft that had generated a lot of criticism. I think possibly, I don't know, but I hope that it would have been marketed a bit differently if it had been done today. That said we also don't know exactly what it would look like as a final product. Jessika: Oh absolutely, yeah. Mike: It’s, I agree. It's a little bit problematic viewed through the current lens. At the same time, like a lot of the Highlander properties when it was being done, I think it was kind of just par for the course. Jessika: Yeah, fair enough. But, I did like the idea of having a female Highlander and having her have a whole story regardless of whether it's the first one to be completely [01:01:00] tragedy laden which was the other comment like her experience a ton of loss because she's female and experiences empathy unlike the male characters. Mike: I really didn't like that. Actually. I thought that was. I mean the, the whole thing where they were saying we wanted to focus on lifetimes of tragedy as opposed to enjoying multiple lives. And I'm like, that's the whole purpose of Highlander. That's what I really like is when you sit there and you watch them having fun and doing all this interesting stuff. Jessika: Women aren't allowed to have fun, Mike. Mike: Apparently. Jessika: We just have to have lives full of tragedy and pining for people that we've lost in our lives. Mike: Well, yeah. And we all know that the dudes don't have feelings, so we just, you know, go on and enjoy things. Jessika: That does suck that Hugh they don't give men the ability to have that capacity or give them the the credit to have that capacity. Mike: I will say, I am sorry that this one didn't get further along the development [01:02:00] stages, because it certainly seemed like it had a lot more promise than the title that was canceled right before it. Jessika: Yes, the gameplay itself looked more interesting, it looks more complex, it easier to navigate. What they were showing us was really intense. Mike: I really liked that whole idea of being able to view the environments in two different eras. It reminded me a lot of another Eidos game called legacy of Cain soul river, where there was a spiritual world and then a physical world. And you could flip back and forth between them, which was kind of cool. Jessika: Oh, that’s neat Mike: Yeah. I dug that. I liked the idea of exploring the same environment in two different areas. I thought that was really neat. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Let's move on to Comics. Jessika: Sounds great. Mike: Okay, so, I’m curious. When do you think that Highlander got big enough to get a comic book? Jessika: I don't know maybe late nineties Mike: 2006. Jessika: Wow [01:03:00] That's later than I had expected. Mike: Yeah. There wasn't a comic adaptation of the movie when it came out, which is weird, there wasn't one here in the States. Highlander Heart, in their YouTube podcast, noted there was a series of five newspaper comic strips that were published as part marketing promotion. The hosts weren't entirely certain if they're exclusive to Europe or not. I don't know. I haven't been able to really find much reference to it. After the movie came out, though there was a two-part comic adaptation in Argentina. It was published through El Tony Todo Color and El Tony Supercolor they were sibling comic anthology magazines, and here's the weird twist. It looks like this was an unlicensed adaptation. Jessika: Mmhm, interesting. Mike: So now we're going to take another side tangent. The important thing that you need to know is that Argentina had just come out of a brutal military dictatorship that came about as part of Operation Condor, which is this horrific program the United States was involved in. And it isn't really taught about in high school history, at least it [01:04:00] wasn't when I was going through high school and I went to a pretty good one. did you ever learn about that? I'm curious. Jessika: No, I did not. Mike: Okay I'm giving you an extremely TLDR read of this, but basically this was a program in the seventies and eighties when the US backed military dictatorships across South America. So our country helped these groups, kidnap, torture, rape murder, thousands of political opponents, like Argentina was especially brutal. There were literally death squads, hunting down political distance across the country. It was a really horrific time. I want you to read this summary of what was going on during that time, actually. Jessika: Give me the really fun stuff I see. Mike: Sorry. Jessika: No you're good. It is estimated that between - 9,000 and 30,000 that's a huge span. Mike: I know, it’s such a margin of error I don't understand. Jessika: Lack of record taking will get you there quick, I think. I'm going to start over, but we’ll leave that in. It is estimated that between [01:05:00] 9,000 and 30,000 people were killed or disappeared, many of whom were impossible to formally report due to the nature of state terrorism. The primary target, like in many other South American countries participating in Operation Condor, were communist guerrillas and sympathizers, but the target of Operation Condor also included students, militants trade, unionists, writers, journalists, I don't love this, artists, and any other citizens suspected of being left-wing activists - well take me the goddamn way away. Mike: Right. Jessika: Including Peronist guerillas. I don't love that. Mike: No it's really awful. And based on that list of targets, it's not surprising that there was a lot of media suppression during this time. Democracy returned to the country in ’83, and there was this explosion of art across the mediums. Argentine Comics [01:06:00] saw this Renaissance period. A lot of them though, weren't really licensed and let's be honest. It's not like there's an internet where IP owners could monitor stuff like this and shut it down when they learned about it. There was also this drastic comics increase in the area due to create or publishing Zines because the eighties was the decade where personal computers suddenly became commonplace and all of a sudden people could format and edit and print their own stuff. I'm doing some armchair speculation right now, but my guess is that IP and copyright law wasn't really a priority for the newly restored democratic government, especially in a market that was so suddenly flooded. Back to the comic and I'm sorry that we went down, this dark side road but it's important to have that context. Jessika: Yes, set the stage. Mike: So the comic was written by Hector Alba and it was illustrated by Ruben Meriggi, it's a pretty straightforward adaptation of the movie script, though Alba, he made the Kurgan the actual [01:07:00] son of the devil. Jessika: Yeah, that was an interesting spin. Mike: Yeah. And you look at the art and they were clearly trying to base it on what they saw in the movie, but it's a little loose and rushed. Jessika: Mmhm. Mike: The information about this comic is incredibly sparse. I found a reference to it in Fearful Symmetry, which, it implies that the comic’s a legit adaptation. And it also says that it's an Italian comic. So I'm not sure what his sources were for this, but, there's no trace of the comic online. I wound up stumbling across it on a site that was dedicated to translating non-English James Bond Comics. It's called Comics Royale. The guy behind the site his name is Clinton Rawls, and he's a college professor who specializes in film appreciation in history. So, I reached out to him on Facebook and we wound up chatting for awhile. And he told me that he basically stumbled across the Highlander issues of El Tony by accident. Exactly when the first issue came out, isn't really certain. Fearful Symmetry says it was released in ’86 as a promotional [01:08:00] item. There's no source cited for that. Clinton has a copy of the second issue and, he said it was from 1987, which lends credence to the theory that it was an unlicensed product created after some folks had viewed the movie, as opposed to a licensed comic that was based on the movie script and say set photos, ahead of release. And then Clinton told me this, and I'm giving you something else to read. That's actually a lot more fun than what we just went over. So Jessika: Perfect. Mike: It’s a pallet cleanser. Jessika: Great. I once found a Rambo III adaptation by the same publisher. It had some fun splash pages, and so I sent them to author David Morrell, Rambo's quote unquote father, as he refers to himself, he seemed surprised and said that he gave no permission for Rambo comics to be written. He thanked me for sending him the art, but said that the comic was made illegally. [01:09:00] Ooh! Someone wasn’t happy to receive that. Mike: Yeah, I mean. I don't know. I feel like if you're making Rambo money, maybe you'd be okay with some. I'd like to think that if I ever made it that big, I would be a little bit more forgiving with people doing stuff like that. But I don't know. I know it's this weird coincidence but I also thought it was really interesting how Argentina was responsible for the first Highlander comic even if it's probably not an official product. And then later on wound up being responsible for Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Anyway. Jessika: Which that was an exciting thing. Talking about all the supplies they had to send up. One safety pin under lock and key. Mike: We're going to fast forward to 2006, which is when we get Dynamite's run. Dynamite was still a publisher in its infancy and had only been around for about a year or so. And so they were just putting out a ton of licensed books, like Battlestar Galactica, Army of Darkness Red [01:10:00] Sonia, and somehow they got the license to Highlander. So, all of the Dynamite books are written by Brandon jerboa. And he'd previously been doing GI Joe books before this the first series. The main series, the longest of the series. It's 12 issues. Well, I think it's 13 actually, cause there's a zero issue as well Jessika: Yeah, there’s a zero issue. Mike: It's one overall meta plot, but it's broken into a couple of different, big arcs. It starts off immediately after the movie it takes the TV shows approach to the mythology where Connor did defeat the Kurgan, but there wasn't that, it wasn't that final battle. There's still other Immortals around competing for the prize. And I really enjoyed these different arcs where it was a Connor and other Immortals friends. It was like the super immortal friends, Immortals dealing with a super soldier cult of the Kurgan’s followers, where somehow he wound up basically creating a bunch of Captain America lites in Russia in the [01:11:00] sixties. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Yeah. And then after that, there's the whole thing where Connor is struggling to keep the Kurgan’s personality from overwhelming him. And then finally the last arc was Duncan after the events of Endgame dealing with both the cults, and then also he's haunted by Connor in the same way. I thought that these were way stronger sequel storylines than the movies. Jessika: I agree. I think it really draws into, especially the idea of one of the personalities or even the existence of the other personalities within each of the Immortals, because we have the understanding that they're getting something out of this, that they're getting at least some sort of knowledge or power, but we’re never told what type of power. It's not like they're stronger, unless they work out. Other than being Immortal, what power are they getting? That's really not necessarily explained, but it's also not explained what goes [01:12:00] on with everyone that you have killed, what are you taking on? What is that? So, I liked the continuation of that and the idea that there could be this seed that just gets bigger and bigger you go on. Mike: Yeah, I agree. I thought it took some really cool ideas and ran with them. So, after that, there were a couple of other mini series. There was Highlander:Way of the Sword, which acts as direct prequel to the original film. And then there's the final Dynamite comic, which is like a two-issue mini-series, and that's Highlander Origins: Kurgan, which it fleshes out the franchise’s best known villain. It's fine. I view it the same way that I view that last Alien movie that came out where I'm like, I don't care what the official canon origin for this is because it’s not going to be as cool as anything that I can imagine. Jessika: That's sometimes the problem with these things, they get a build-up that they just cannot live up to. Mike: Yeah. But overall, I thought the Dynamite comics were really solid and there are a lot of fun. You can actually [01:13:00] buy the individual issues really cheap. The collected additions are weirdly expensive though, and you can't buy them digitally anymore, I don't think because they, again, the license has gone to a different publisher. If you're in the market for some solid Highlander stories and you've already watched all the movies and the TV shows, the comics are pretty good especially the Dynamite ones. Jessika: Yeah, I enjoyed them. Mike: Yeah. Are you ready to talk about Highlander 3030? Jessika: I'm so excited. Yeah. Mike: Highlander 3030. When I was learning about Highlander 3030, that was when I had the realization that it's not really a Highlander product unless there’s been a bunch of behind-the-scenes production drama. Jessika: That seems to be what's tracking at this point in time, based on documentary we watched. Mike: This was another comic that I didn't know about until I was doing some serious digging into this whole topic. Again, it's one of the things that's got a really quick blurb in Fearful Symmetry. It's barely referenced around the web. Bleeding [01:14:00] Cool still has the review for when they got sent a digital copy to check out and shit all over it. They were mean. Jessika: Oh, damn. Mike: Yeah. So when I was doing the digging, I found out the publisher Emerald Star Comics, was a small indie publisher out of Oklahoma. It looks like they were only distributing the comic on digital platforms like Comicsology and Drive-Thru Comics. And then they had eventual plans for a physical distribution, but that never happened as far as I can tell, because they had one of the last posts on their Facebook page is a post talking about how they didn't get picked up by Diamond Distributors for distribution, for comic shops and stuff. But, this was a comic that was released in 2015. And yeah, it's basically Duncan MacLeod in the way far future. And they got support from the Highlander brand. They got some actual shout outs from the Highlander Facebook group. [01:15:00] They had a competition where the fan who got the most votes was going to get to appear in the second or third issue. Folks who were really jazzed about this ahead of its release. And then it came out and the fan reaction to this book was not kind. And that was a shame. It was created by some very passionate fans who decided to swing for the fences and they wound up landing the license in the most unlikely of ways. I actually wound up tracking down the book's co-writer Matt Kelly over the weekend. And he told me this wild story about how a publisher in the middle of nowhere wound up getting the license to Highlander, Matt: So eventually the publisher pulled me aside on a phone call and was like, hey, look, we've got the Highlander license. And I was like, wait. Wait, what? Mike: Yeah, how, how did that happen? Like, do you know? Matt: So the story that he told me was that he reached out to them on LinkedIn. So as you may or may not know the company that owns the rights to Highlander, it's not Paramount. It's not Warner brothers, you know, it's [01:16:00] sort of like a mom and pop, uh. Mike: Yeah, it’s Davis Panzer productions, right? Matt: Davis Panzer productions. And they've just held onto it all these years. And he reached out to them on LinkedIn, and they were between licensees of the comic book and he pitched a wacky idea to them and they were like, yeah, go for it. Let's do it. Mike: Okay. But that's wild. Matt: So that's what happened, and I couldn't make it up. And there's a couple of other licensees that he was pursuing, but Highlander to me was like the big fish, because I was a massive, still am, massive Highlander fan. I discovered it at just the right time. It was like 15 when I first started watching Highlander, and I watched the movie, I thought it was amazing. It was like the first DVD I ever bought. I was staying up late to watch the show. And so he was like, hey, do you want to be the editor on this? I'm like, yeah. And then eventually he's like, you could be my co-writer, cause I'm so busy, I can't even write this thing. I was like, of course. Mike: How did you feel about it, by the way? [01:17:00] Basically that they just reached out to them on LinkedIn and got it? Jessika: To me, that is just, the power of asking. We talked about that earlier. I guess you just have to ask the question and the worst that can happen is they say no. Mike: Yeah tell you to hit the bricks. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: So Matt gave us a digital copy of the first issue to read through since it's not commercially available after Emerald Star shutting down. Jessika: Thanks, Matt! Mike: Yeah, thank you Matt Kelly, friend of the podcast. Jessika: Yeah, it was a, it was good. I actually really enjoyed it Mike: I did, too! Jessika: And especially like it, I was so bummed when it was like, oh, there was only one issue. I'm like, why? I know we're going this whole, like dystopian, whatever. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: But this was such a different swing of it than we've seen. The other ones went very dystopian New York and a dystopian that's a future that's near enough in our future to be pretty scary, but distant enough that it's not quite here yet. This one was like so distant in the future that, we weren't [01:18:00] even in the same plane. I mean it just, and I thought it was an interesting swing. I loved the concept. Mike: I Yeah. I thought it was a fun story. What did you think of the art? Jessika: I definitely related to some of those wonky face pictures. I just was. Some of them look pained to exist, and I'm like, I feel you, I get you at deep level. So, it was a little rough. Mike: Yeah. And that's what people criticize the most about it. And as Matt pointed out, this is because Dan Goodfellow, the artist, was actually forced to draw it in a totally different style than his own. Matt: We had a really cool artist who had this really awesome kind of scratchy European style. It felt like you were reading like something out of, you know, I mean, he was a Brit, I believe, something out of 2000 AD it kind of had that smell to it and it was so cool. And [01:19:00] so we were in the midst of production of it and the artists got sick and he couldn't do it. Mike: Oh man. Was that the artist who did the initial cover of that issue that you sent me? Matt: No, that was, that was a different part, just that was Robert Norton. And he was great. He, at the. if we had more time, Robert, I think should have been the main artist on the book. But our artist dropped out and the publisher called the next name that he had on the list and said, hey, can you fill in for the artist that dropped out? And he went to David's Panzer and said, you know, this is the deal. And they said, well, listen, It needs to look like the pitch you sends us. We don't want to look like anything else. So this poor guy had to draw the whole first issue and redrawn all the pages that had already been drawn, but in someone else's style. Mike: Ah,man. Matt: And that's kind of a, you know, that's not cool. So he was mimicking someone else who had a very [01:20:00] rough looking style. And it was this other artists’ own thing. And this poor fellow was stuck trying to do sort of like this rough style, but it just looked rough and it just, and you know, it wasn't gelling, but that's, that's what was asked. Mike: Oh, that sucks. Mike: After hearing that, I have to say that really sucks. Jessika: That's not great. Mike: I don't understand why Davis Panzer wouldn't let them do it in a new art style, especially if they could show the art style of Dan’s, but. Jessika: Clearly someone who didn't understand art at a core level, just expecting an artist to replicate a style. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Especially, a comic book artist, you get used to a certain way of drawing, of doing things. And having to be forced into a mold that you don't necessarily fit into. It's not going to work. Mike: No. Jessika: But it just seems like a not very well thought out decision on their part. Mike: Yeah, I agree. And the other thing is that Matt revealed that everyone who was working on stuff at Emerald [01:21:00] Star, they were basically working for free. The expected compensation would have come on the backend, if the books wound up taking off and on top of that, the license fee for Highlander and the lack of profit on the project, basically, that was what killed the imprint. That said, even though the book is more infamous than it's liked, Matt was still really glad that his name's on something Highlander associated, just because he loves the property so much. Matt: I am proud of the fact that I was able to brush up against something that meant a lot to me. And you know, those high school years when you've discovered something and you're like, this is awesome. Wow. And you just see the potential in it to be able to leave a mark on it in some degree is definitely worthwhile. And I'm really happy that I was able to, you know, put some words in Duncan's mouth, even if issue one wasn't the one that I worked too terribly on, but I did get to work on issue two. And it was drawn, just never published. So maybe someday [01:22:00] I'll put it on our website somewhere and let people enjoy it. But, um, yeah. Mike: I would be in the same position that he is, where it wouldn't matter that what I put out wasn't the hit that I'd hope for, the fact that I got to write something on a property that meant so much to me would have been more than enough. And I think he's got a really good perspective on that. Personally, I still can't believe that he was willing to talk to me. I'm really hoping that he releases that issue too, someday, you know, because he talked about the plot with me and you heard what he had planned. Jessika: Mmhm. Mike: And it sounds bonkers, but in the best kind of way. Jessika: Yes, yes. Mike: So I don't want to spoil the details for it here on the podcast, just in case he does end up sharing it with fans eventually, and I think that would be really fun for them to discover everything organically. I thought it was really rad, and I think that's where we're going to leave Highlander 3030. It was something really ambitious [01:23:00] that was planned out by really passionate fans, and it didn't wind up working out, but I liked it a lot more than I expected to. Finally, we got Highlander American dream, which came out in 2017 from IDW. Do you want to describe this one? Jessika: Sure, yeah. Well and this one we follow Connor MacLeod back and forth through, of course, cause they're always doing the time jumps, between the Civil War, the 1950s, and the 1980s as he deals with the toils of being an Immortal during a time of The Gathering, you know, the same story. Trying to both become the victor of the Immortals deadly game, as well as save those he loves. I like this one, Rachel's in this one a lot more, and at different points in her life, which. was great Mike: I feel like the Comics actually served Rachel a lot better than the movies. Jessika: Agreed She's just kind of a blip on the radar and honestly you can forget she's there quite easily, and I did a few times. Like, oh yeah, [01:24:00] Rachel. Mike: Connor's weird adopted son is way more important than Highlander III, and like gets more screen time, than Rachel does in all the other movies. Jessika: Yeah, I agree. Mike: Yeah I felt it was really different than a lot of the stuff . The best way I could describe it is that it felt like the mini series was doing an episode of the TV show, but starting Connor, it was a relatively small kind of self contained story. I liked the whole thing with the immortal being a serial killer, I thought that was kind of cool. And then he has his friend, who's a priest who shows up so he's got the cameo appearance. But it was fine it was solid I liked it. Jessika: Yeah I liked it too. Mike: Yeah, and that’s the last that we've seen of the Highlander Comics, at least for the time being. Jessika: Hey Mike what's next for Highlander? Mike: I’m so glad you asked. No, actually that's a good question. There's still an incredibly passionate community around the brand, even after all this time, I wound up joining the Highlander Heart [01:25:00] Facebook community, which has several thousand members. And I'm really floored at how strong it is. There's constant posts within it. And based on what I've seen is just this wonderful lack of toxicity there too. Like, you and I have been part of other geek groups that are really big and they're just awful. Like, after a while, like you and I left that one recently. Jessika: I going to say subsequently left. Mike: Where it was people that were just so mean to each other, because they were doing a lot of gate-keeping over who the real fans were. Jessika: And you know, I've said my spiel, just let people like things. Mike: Yeah Right this group has people who are constantly showing off their merchandise and displays or things that remind them of the brand or what they'd like to see if it comes back. And I'm not sure who's overseeing the Highlander brand now because both Bill Panzer and Peter Davis have died. Panzer wound up passing in 2007 in a weird freak ice skating accident. He basically fell and hit his head [01:26:00] and that did him in. And then Davis died in his sleep back in February, he was 79, he was an old man. Davis’ son, Josh has stepped into handle the producer duties on the new movie that they're making at Lionsgate. And speaking of the new movie, there's been a reboot or a remake of the original and development since 2008, it's wound up bouncing around a lot around Hollywood for a while, but, Chad Stahelski. He's the guy who directed all three John Wick movies, if you saw them. Jessika: Oh, I’ve seen the first one, yes. Mike: Yeah. They're all really good. They're a lot of fun. Like the action sequences only get stronger after the first one. The first one's action sequences are mind-blowing. So he signed onto that project in 2016, and then in June, 2020, he was still attached and he said the movie is in heavy development, I believe was his wording. They haven't cast the main character, but David Battista who played Drax, the destroyer was announced to play the Kurgan that was back in 2015. So I'm not sure [01:27:00] if he's still going to be in the movie but I'm hoping. Cause I really like him. Jessika: Yeah! Mike: Who would you cast as Connor or the Connor Stand-in? Jessika: Oh, who would I cast? You know who’d be really funny, is to put Channing Tatum. I just think that would be great but then spin it funny. Mike: Yeah. And we’re back to Magic Mike. Jessika: We are. We sure are. I think you may have planted that seed. Mike: I'm down with, I'm down with Channing Tatum. I can see that. Jessika: About you. Who would you choose though? Mike: I have to say, I have a deep and abiding love for Chris pine Jessika: Okay. Yes, we keep bringing up Mr. Pine on this podcast. Pine hit us up. Mike: Chris pine future friend of our podcast. Jessika: Yes, please. Mike: Future ex-husband of the podcast. Jessika: Make all of our dreams come true, why don't you? Mike: But I really like him as an actor. He's got that [01:28:00] athletic, but not unrealistic build, and he's a really good face actor and he's really funny when you give him the opportunities. And I think some of the best moments in Highlander are the moments of unexpected humor. Jessika: Yeah, okay I agree. You know what I think you're right too. Mike: I feel like there's no bad answer between our two options. Jessika: You know we should have both of them do a reading for us can really decide. So, why don't you guys get in touch with us. We'll make it happen for you. Mike: Yeah Chris pine and Channing Tatum hit us up. We'll make an exception for you, we’ll take your call. But anyway, I think a lot of what we're going to get with Highlander media is going to hinge on that remake. It's a pretty long in the tooth franchise at this point. And its fan base seems to be, yeah, around our age or older, but I think if we get this bad-ass action movie from the dude who created John Wick, that could resurrect the brand [01:29:00] and it could give us a lot of new media, like comics, games, TV shows, John Wick has gotten the same thing. I'm really hopeful about that. And I'd like to see the Highlander stories continue with a more modern sense of storytelling. I'd like to see more more diverse characters. I'd like to see, queer characters get introduced because we never got those in any of the movies or the TV shows that a couple of queer-coded characters, I think it was accidental that they were queer-coded. Jessika: I think they were trying to be edgy, yeah. Mike: Yeah. And I think Highlander is a brand that's poised for a comeback, and I'm really excited for what's on the horizon and I’m hoping that it doesn’t disappoint me, as it sometimes does with this brand. So we have gone back to the 1980s and come out on the other side. How do you feel about Highlander now? Jessika: It was a fun journey. Oh, love it even more. Love it even more. Yeah, I'll go back and I'll watch more of it. Give myself a little rest and [01:30:00] we'll go in refreshed and we'll watch even more Highlander, in a sequential order. actually form a plot line. Mike: So, now is the time of our show where we discuss Brain Wrinkles, which is that one thing that is comics or comics-related that has just been rattling around our heads for a little while. Jess, I’ve been talking for a bit, why don’t you kick us off? Jessika: I cannot stop thinking about a comic I read a couple of months ago and I own it, so I leaf through it every once in a while, but it's just stuck with me. I picked up issue one of DC Black Label, the Other History of the DC Universe, in thefirst issue. Mike: Oh yeah. Jessika: Yeah, it's so good. And I know I've talked to you about it before in previous conversations, but this first issue features the origin story of Jefferson Pierce, alias, Black Lightning. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And what I love about this issue is that it not only follows [01:31:00] his character, his origin story, but we also see the DC universe through his lens. He grows up in a community with few resources, with crime and violence. Once he figured out his powers, he uses this for the good of the community, because he doesn't have the luxury of just being able to be the savior going after the big game, like Superman and Wonder Woman. And he makes a comment about that. He doesn't have that privilege of just being able to go be a hero and go save Metropolis. He has to make sure that his family can survive and that, his neighbor doesn't get shot in the street. He has to fight those villains. Mike: Have you ever watched the TV show? Jessika: I haven't no I haven't watched the TV show, yeah I’ll have to check it out Mike: I haven't watched it for a while but I remember it was really good. Jessika: Ooh okay, I appreciate good recommendations. He also discusses seeing other heroes of color and how they're pushed into the spotlight and they're used, and there's always somebody who's benefiting off [01:32:00] of them. It's not ever to their benefit. It’s just, they’re there for a purpose. They’re a tool and it's a really interesting read and I will definitely be heading out to Brian's Comics in Petaluma and picking up more issues of that. Cause it was a couple months ago, so I'm sure there's at least one more issue out by now. Mike: Yeah, probably. That’s rad. Yeah it's fun. What about you? Mike: So I'm going to break with tradition and I'm instead going to focus on something that's been rattling around my brain after I'd dug it up about a week ago while I was researching this episode. I want to share something with you. It's this interview with Peter Wingfield, he's the actor who played Methos and he was doing an interview for one of the many behind the-scenes features that they had for the DVD releases of Highlander. This is part of a larger piece about the character of Methos, and let's just watch. Voice of Peter Wingfield: I now look back at it [01:33:00] and it's changed my life so profoundly. I now live 5,000 miles away. I have a child who will grow up with an accent that is completely unrelated to my own at the bottom of a mountain where we will go snowboarding next to the ocean where the orcas swim by every year. My, my acting, my uh my craft is so, so totally altered by my by my work, my experience on Highlander, the places I've had to go with the character of Methos, I am, I'm profoundly changed by it. And it's this strange little show [01:34:00] about immortality. Jessika: He’s getting emotional. I love it. Mike: It’s so good. Voice of Peter Wingfield: Five years off. Jessika: I’m like, I'm getting emotional, but I'm an empath. Voice of Peter Wingfield: A show that will not die. Jessika: Yeah. Now he's got that right. That was really moving. Yeah. That really did touch him. Mike: Yeah, and I love that sentiment. It goes back to why I love this whole silly franchise. It seems like every time that you talk to a fan of Highlander, they tell you what the movies or the show meant to them. And it always feels like it was really pretty profound in each case. And I keep thinking about how that first Highlander comic was probably a bootleg that came about while an entire country was celebrating the return of artistic freedom after a generation of trauma. There's that same sense of enthusiasm surrounding the whole franchise. Like people will acknowledge the bad stuff, but they really just seem to focus on the positive. And, March 7th [01:35:00] this year was the original movies, 35th anniversary. And there's still this really passionate fan base surrounding what a created, one that's surprisingly active to be honest and, positive after a decade of very little new content. I think one of the coolest things about Highlander is that as Wingfield says, it just won't die it won't die because so many people love it so much warts and all, and to be honest, I wish other fandoms were like that. Mike: Thanks for listening to 10 cent takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, [01:36:00] our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by @cut_thistles on Instagram. Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to TencentTakes.com or shoot an email to Tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is @tencenttakes. Jessia is @JessikawithaK and Jessika obviously has a K in it as well. And Mike is @vansau. Jessika: Stay safe out there. Mike: And support your local comic shop.

We'll get back to doing funny episodes about goofy moments in comic history in two weeks, but we decided to adjust our schedule. Today, we're talking about Abortion Eve, an underground feminist comic that came out shortly after Roe v Wade was decided, and what's happening now that the Supreme Court has overturned that case. ----more----

Sources Cited: 

• The Bust: Orange County’s War on Underground Comix http://cbldf.org/2016/09/the-bust-orange-countys-war-on-underground-comix/ 
• Women in Underground Comix
• http://cbldf.org/2019/03/women-in-underground-comix/
• The Comic Book That Guided Women Through Abortion Months After ‘Roe’
• https://rewirenewsgroup.com/article/2016/06/08/comic-book-abortion-after-roe/ 
• Roe v. Wade Comics (Ohio State University’s  Billy Ireland Cartoon Library & Museum)
• https://library.osu.edu/site/40stories/2020/01/06/roe-v-wade-comics/ 
• Abortion Eve comic: ​​https://www.ep.tc/eve/
• Who Killed Junior comic: https://www.ep.tc/junior/ 

(Both of these comics are hosted on the personal site of Ethan Persoff, who archives and shares rare and unusual comics)

If you'd like to learn more about the Comic Book Legal Defense fund –or donate to them– head on over to their site: http://cbldf.org/ 

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Alright, everybody. Gather round. It's time we talked about how Marvel tried to get right with Jesus. Twice. 

----more----

[00:00:00] Mike: is there anything more offensive than lazy comic books?

Welcome to Tencent takes the podcast where we apologize for comic books ends one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined as always by my co-host, the celebrated comedian, Jessika Frazer.

Jessika: Hello. Hello.

Mike: How are you doing?

Jessika: Oh, I'm pretty good, wild week, but I mean, we have comics to go with.

Mike: Comics make everything better.

Jessika: It's true.

Mike: If you're new to the show, the purpose of this podcast is to look at comics in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're [00:01:00] woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history.

Today, we’re venturing out of our fool's paradise and checking out how Marvel tried to get right with Jesus through not one, but two runs of Christian comics.

Jessika: Gawd, you almost wished they had stopped. 

Mike: It’s a ride.

Jessika: It's such a ride.

Mike: Before we get started though, Jess, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched lately?

Jessika: Well, I am very excited about what I'm about to share. And I was recently at my local comic shop and grabbed the first copy and started a subscription for the comic Alice in Leatherland by Iolanda Zanfardino and Elisa Romboli and published through Black Mask Entertainment.

Mike: Oh, Black Mask is awesome. They're a smaller imprint, but they were super supportive of local shops when the lockdown happened.

Jessika: Oh, that's lovely. I'm really glad I supported them then.

Mike: Yeah. I, if I remember right, Brian’s, our [00:02:00] local shop in Petaluma, they did a deal where Brian's was talking about it, and basically they had, if you did a direct order from them, they would split the revenue 50, 50, as long as you provided the name of the local shop.

Jessika: Oh, that's so nice.

Mike: Yeah, they're rad. I really liked them a lot.

Jessika: I already really liked this comic. I mean, I'm one issue in. 

Mike: Yeah. I haven't heard of it.

Jessika: Oh, it's amazing. It's queer. You know, I love me some queer content. It's emotional. The animation style right now is monochromatic and detailed. So I'm interested to see if the color vibe continues that way, or if it goes in another direction, kind of, as the story continues.

Mike: Okay.

Jessika: The storyline seems like it's going to take us on a really fun sex and kink positive adventure, and I'm excited to see what the next issue brings us.

Mike: That sounds really cool.

Jessika: Yeah. What about you?

Mike: Well, I have not been reading new comics, it’s kind of the opposite of [00:03:00] that. I finally got my old comic collection from my parents' house and I've been digging through it for the past couple of days. 

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: Yeah, it's, it's a time capsule.  And it's also, it's, it's a lot of fun to see what I was reading and also cringe a little bit, but also see that in some cases I had really good taste and that collection is appreciated better than some people's stock portfolios, I’m sure. So that was kind of cool to find the first appearance of Bain in the middle of the box.

Jessika: Oh, that's cool. So you curated that collection, it wasn't like things that were kind of given to you or was it a combination?

Mike: It was a little bit of both. But I mean, I started, I started really collecting comics when I was about nine or 10, and so it was, it was several long boxes. So, you know, the first appearance of He-Man was in there as well. And then, one of the things  that I actively collected was a comic series called X, and it was from Dark Horse in the early 1990s.

So. [00:04:00] Dark Horse was using this in a couple of other books to launch their shared superhero universe. And X was this really interesting  take on a Batman kind of figure. He was this character who would mark criminals with an X. If you crossed him, you'd receive a slash across your face as a warning, or you'd be marked for death with a full X. So.

Jessika: Damn.

Mike: Yeah.  A large part part of the character is the mystery around him and his abilities and the writers weren't afraid to let it stay a mystery for the most part. It's very much one of those, you know, grim and gritty nineties books, but it's also pretty good on the reread. It doesn't quite age as well as, as I would hope it would. But for the most part, it's really fun.

Jessika: That's great. It's always nice. When things meet your expectations, most of the way.

Mike: Most of the way.

Jessika: On the reread. 

Mike: I'm not embarrassed to like 80% of what came across.

Jessika: I dig that.

[00:05:00] 

Mike:  Well, after our last episode, I found myself thinking of weird Christian comics that I've come across and I realized I actually have some in my collection. So I started digging, and then I wound up digging some more, and it turns out Marvel had two different runs of very different comics for Christian audiences.

And this is a first for us, we’re going to do this as a two-part episode. So we're going to talk about the first run tonight, but we're also going to talk around some of the background with Marvel and religion.

Jessika: I'm so excited for this. You have no idea. I've been thinking about it all week as I've been reading these again, bananagrams comics, but like bananagrams in a totally different way than the last ones we read.

Mike: It's a very mixed bag this time around.

Jessika: Ooh, scary mixed.

Mike: Yeah, Marvel and the Bible never really had a strong relationship, although ,they've done some flirtation every now and then.  Back [00:06:00] in 1953 Atlas, which is the publisher that would become Marvel eventually, they had a short-lived series called Bible Tales for Young Folk, which adapted iconic stories from the Bible for younger readers, but it only ran for five issues.

So I'm gonna put that in a little bit of perspective: comics circulation in the 1950s was still incredibly high, partially due to the fact that televisions weren't as commonplace as they would be by the end of the decade.  Do you remember when our first episode I mentioned,  that only 9% of us households had TVs at the start of the decade versus 90% by the end?

Jessika: Yes. Yeah, I do remember that.

Mike: Yeah. So I came across an article that actually talks about the average comic sales per month in 1959. What do you think that number was like what the average circulation of comic books, the entire market.

Jessika: 1959. Well, gosh, they had comics that they were  sending through the army and everything. Gawd, it had to have been in the millions.

Mike: Yeah, 26 million.

[00:07:00] Jessika: Wow, wow wow wow.

Mike: So it was, it was pretty substantial, and the fact that a comic series based on the Bible only sold well enough to last five issues during that insane circulation period is pretty telling about what kids were and weren't interested in reading. But anyway, overt at Christian iconography and characters generally haven't appeared in Marvel's books too often. Certain characters like Daredevil and Nightcrawler are strongly defined by their respective Christianities, but it's generally just treated as faith. It's not identified as the quote true religion. And Marvel's actually made a good point in recent years of setting up a complex Pantheon of gods, so it makes it seem like there's no wrong religion to follow.  Side note though, one of my favorite comic details is that Dr. Doom had a recent confrontation with Dracula and he revealed he had splinters of the true cross in his armor as a vampire deterrent. I thought that was just chef's [00:08:00] kiss.

Jessika: Oh, wow.

Mike: It was great.  Jesus himself never really appeared in mainstream Marvel books though. There's been occasional messages or sometimes you'll see the  iconography or occasionally there'll be cameos as well. But honestly, the most notable appearance that I'm aware of was in the 1970s with Ghost Rider.

 In the 1970s Ghost Rider comic, when a mysterious character only identified as a friend shows up to save Ghost Rider on occasion.  It was very clearly meant to be Jesus, but this character was eventually retconned to be an illusion created by the demon Maphisto. This is one of those things that's just, it's so weird, I want to take a moment to focus on it. So writer, Tony Isabella, who is actually the guy who created Black Lightning, which I know you've been reading a bit of lately.

Jessika: Yeah!

Mike:  So he explained how this character came to be in an interview a while [00:09:00] ago with Comics Buyer's Guide. Would you like to read what he said out loud for our audience?

Jessika: Certainly

Mike: Alright. 

Jessika: Getting prior approval from editor, Roy Thomas, as I would from later editors, Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. I introduced “the Friend” into the series. It looked sort of like a hippie Jesus Christ. And that's exactly who He was, though I never actually called Him that. It allowed me to address the disparity that had long bothered me about the Marvel Universe. So we had no end of Hells and Satan surrogates in our comics, we had nothing of heaven. After two years, I had written a story wherein, couched in  mildly settled term, Blaze accepted Jesus as his savior and freed himself from Satan's power forever. Had I remained on Ghost Rider which was my intent at the time the titles [00:10:00] religious elements would have faded into the background.  Blaze would be a Christian, but he'd express this in a way you led his life. Unfortunately, an assistant editor took offense at my story. The issue was ready to go and the printer, when he pulled it back and ripped it to pieces, he had some of the art redrawn and a lot of the copy rewritten to change the ending of a story two years in the making.  The friend was revealed to be not Jesus, but a demon in disguise.  To this day, I consider what he did to my story one of the three most arrogant and wrongheaded actions I've ever seen from an editor.

Mike: Someone's still got feelings about this.

Jessika: Feelings,

Mike: All capitals.

Jessika: Salty. 

Mike: That assistant editor that he's talking about has been later identified as Jim Shooter, who eventually became Marvel's Editor-In-Chief in 1978. Shooter's kind of an interesting guy. He's [00:11:00] hailed as the person who really righted Marvel’s ship after a lot of prolonged instability.

So during his tenure, there were a lot of acclaimed runs and storylines, like all those Saturday morning cartoons we talked about in our first episode, those all happened under his watch. So, you know, you can't say that he didn't do a good job, but a number of major industry figures have also gone on record to state that he forced a lot of editorial decisions on people working for him.

 Interestingly, though, Shooter actually gave a video interview last year where he actually addressed Isabella's description. He said he was concerned about the Jesus' storyline, because it would have quote, basically established the Marvel universe as a Christian universe and that all of the religions were false and he felt that would have alienated other readers.

Jessika: That's kinda how I feel about it.

Mike: Aye. I can't say I disagree with them, but I can also see Isabella’s [00:12:00] point. Um, I don't know what the right answer would have been, but it's an interesting moment of comic history.

Jessika: Yeah, absolutely.

Mike:  Now the funny thing is that the first comics that we're going to talk about actually were published by Marvel when it was running under shooter's guidance. So two of these were co-written by Roy Gasnick. Gasnick himself is also a pretty fascinating guy.  He basically spent the entirety of his adult life in the Franciscan order. He wound up serving as the Director of Communications for the Franciscan Province of the East Coast Holy Name Province, which was headquartered in New York. And he worked there for 18 years and he dealt a lot with the media.

He was also a big believer in civil rights, and apparently he marched with Martin Luther King Jr. Not what I would have expected.

Jessika: No, like the whole end of that, I was like, oh, oh, oh, okay. All right. 

Mike: Yeah.  And granted I'm reading largely obituaries about them. And so they're going to [00:13:00] paint them in a good light, but to recap, his public image is that he was a dude who devoted himself to the church for basically his entire life.  He wrote best-selling comic books and he fought for others' rights.

So kind of interesting.  It sounds like the proverbial cool priest that everybody wants to be.

Jessika: it's that priest you call uncle? No, don't do that.

Mike: No.

Jessika: There were one of the comics that did that.

Mike: Yeah. Yep.

Jessika: I didn't like it. It was, it was really creepy. I was like, no, you took it too far.

Mike: Yeah, it was the Pope

Mike: Yeah, it's, it's really awkward because it's the Pope and you're just like, oh, oh, I don't know a Catholic priest who wants young men to call him uncle, I don't know how I feel about that.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: okay. So Gasnick wrote the first comic that we're going to talk about, which is Francis Brother of the Universe.

This is a book that came out in [00:14:00] 1980 and it was actually published in order to celebrate  the saint’s 800th birthday. It would have been 1981 or 82. His actual birthday has been lost to history, they just know it was really late in one year or really early in the other year,

Jessika: Hmm.

Mike: But  effectively, it tells the life story of Saint Francis, which has definitely taken on a mythological quality  since he reformed the church about 800 years ago. Jessika, would you do me a favor and describe the cover of this comic? Because it is a trip.

Jessika: It is a trip. Okay. So it is first of all, at the very top in the box that would usually have the comics code, the little emblem, it actually has Francis himself with like a Wolf. It says 75 cent one first issue, Marvel Comics Group Francis, [00:15:00] Brother of the Universe, his complete life story, and okay guys, this is exciting.

It is an exciting cover. So first you see a guy on horseback, medieval guy on horseback and it's white horse, and he's got a sword in the air and it's cutting through the text at the top and there's fighting behind him in a big cloud. And then there, then you see bald Francis. We're going to talk about why is he bald?

Okay. It's like, why do you have to do that? Like, just get rid of the whole thing. I dunno. Anyway, so bald Francis, and then you've got, you know, another guy, I think it was also Francis. I think this is all Francis.

Mike: That, that, is young Francis. 

Jessika: Young Francis on a table with a cup he's like screaming into, you know, a

crowd. 

Mike: Hosting a party at a Tavern like you do.

Jessika: That's right.

Yeah. Hosting a, yeah he was a big [00:16:00] party hoster that's right. And then you've gone him with the Pope when he's the monk or he's with some other type of religious leader of some sort. And then he's got his back to  the viewer and his arms are outstretched and there's light coming down onto him.

It looks like he's about to be beamed up into heaven. There's doves behind him.

Mike: It should be noted that this is a wraparound cover, too.

Jessika: It is a wraparound. I'm sorry. I, yeah, I'm describing the back now. Oh, and

then there’s.

Mike: It is a work of art man.

Jessika: It is a work of art. It's really pretty, it's very colorful. It's all very eye catching.  There's more fighting.  There's, a sultan or a king and then there's Francis singing at the bottom is he is just singing his little merry heart out.  It is, it's a fun cover.

Mike: Yeah. And it, it does a really nice job of being very visually attractive, and it also showcases  a lot of the big moments from the comic itself.

[00:17:00] Jessika: Yeah. Agreed.

Mike: Yeah. So the book’s origin is another one of those examples of the power in asking that we talked about during the Highlander episode. So the way this happened was Jean Pelc, who was Marvel's representative in Japan in the seventies,  he was a devoted Catholic and  he was regularly attending mass at the Franciscan Chapel center.

And according to the forward in the comic. He was having coffee with two friars who asked him, why don't you do a book on St. Francis and reportedly Pelc thought about it for about a minute and then said, yeah, sure. Why not?

Jessika: I thought that was funny.

Mike: I thought it was great.  So as I mentioned, the comic story was overseen by Gasnick.

He basically kind of oversaw the dialogue and the general story, but he didn't write the script. The comic script was written by Mary Jo Duffy, who had recently been reading Marvel Star Wars series in the seventies. [00:18:00] And then it was illustrated by Eisner Hall of Fame member, John Buscema, who is a legend in the industry, but he's one of those pencilers who basically became a patron Saint for other comic professionals.

So, Buschema’s involvement feels especially relevant in this case, because this is a medieval comic. And one of the comics that he really worked on a lot was Conant the Barbarian. So he was really very much in his element. And you can tell because the art in this book is great.

Jessika: Oh, it's amazing.

Mike: Yeah. Marvel clearly believed in this book and they put some serious talent behind it.

What was your overall reaction or impression of the comic? I'm curious.

Jessika: I feel like this is the type of religious comic that kids won't get embarrassed over liking.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: It's got adventure, it's colorful, and those cheeks could cut glass. I was im, I was [00:19:00] impressed.

Mike: Yeah,

Jessika: There were, of course the subversive, like white supremacists tones when they were talking about the good people and all the floating heads were Caucasian. So thanks for that, everyone.

Mike: Yeah. Which I mean, Not great, but also it was the seventies. And also they're talking about medieval Europe, which was not the most racially sensitive environments.

Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is true. But also loving that a lot of these guys low-key operated, like co-leaders like St. Francis even got a whole acapella group together to hang out with his cult.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Sounds pretty rad until the leader gets the incurable stigmata. That seems like it would be a real bummer.

Mike: Yeah. He and he clearly has untreated PTSD, like, you know, from his time where he was held in the dungeon for a couple of years. 

Um, you know, and like that's the whole thing is that he's, he's a prisoner of [00:20:00] war. And then he starts hearing voices.

Jessika: Mm, mm,

Mike: Like, you know, and granted it's, you know, this is Catholic propaganda, so it's presenting it as, oh no, he heard the divine call and he answered and he gave up everything and blah, blah, blah.  I'm with you. I personally, I really dug it. So the funny thing is that when I was 11, I came across a copy of this and the kid's school room for Sunday school. And I really fell in love with it. Like, I basically just didn't want to actually pay attention to Sunday school and they were doing all  the actual religious study activities. And so I would just sit in the corner and read this, and they couldn't really get mad at me because I was reading about a religious leader who the church was named after. So. Hmm. But you know, it felt like a fantasy comic more than anything else. And when I re-read it, this week, I was struck by both the art and the storytelling being as good as they were like, yes, it’s, as I said, it's [00:21:00] Catholic propaganda, but it's good propaganda.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: So. According to Gasnick's obituary, this comic was actually the best-selling single issue in Marvel history at the time. And, you know, clearly that record has been shattered a few times since then.  It apparently moved more than a million issues, which in 1980 was like, unheard of.

I couldn't find a resource to fact check this though, because all the sites that track comic sales numbers don't seem to go that far back, or at least they don't yet, but it was clearly popular enough to spawn a couple of other related comics that I've seen referred to on the web as the Saint series.

 That's where we're going to go next. Following the success of Francis brother of the Universe, Marvel launched Pope John Paul II's biographical comic, which it's a thing.

Jessika: It happened.

Mike: Yeah. So this was, again, one of those books where Marvel really put some talent behind it. They had art [00:22:00] by John, I’m going to butcher his last name, Tartaglione, I believe.  But he was known for doing historically accurate work with his art. And then the book was written by Steven Grant who went on to write the first Punisher series for Marvel in the eighties.

Jessika: Hmm.

Mike:  And then he would go on to write Dark Horse’s 1990 series, X.  Full circle, baby.

Jessika: Here we are.

Mike: Yeah. Would you be willing to provide a quick summary of the book?

Jessika: Oh, certainly. I like the evil laugh too, that’s just perfect. So this follows the life and spiritual journey of Pope John Paul II. And, it does this very Tarantino's thing where it starts with the assassination attempt against his life. And it goes back to earlier in his life to tell the story of how he got to that point, [00:23:00] which oddly enough, involves a lot of hiding theater from Nazis. True, true. It then discusses how he gained interest in the church, how he rose through the ranks of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and eventually was selected as Pope, which leads us back to his assassination attempt from which he recovers.

Mike: And then that's where the book ends because his assassination attempt had only happened a year or two prior. But the funny thing is that it doesn't start with the assassination attempt. I thought it did, too, until I was reading up on it. So that's where it's weird. So the comic opens at his 1979 visits to Yankee stadium.  And it spends so much time there.  When we're not being shown his life. That it feels like the assassination attempt also took place there, 

Jessika: Oh, I that's. I did think that you're right.

Mike: Yeah, but like, that's the thing is he wasn't actually shot until two years later in ’81 when he was back at the Vatican and it's very vaguely shown [00:24:00] and that's only one page after everyone is leaving the stadium.

So the first time I read it, I thought he basically got shot at the stadium as well, because it's super vague. They only show you that one kind of like small frame where you see a gun being held high. You don't even, it's just a hand holding a gun and that's it.

And I mean, I get it. You don't want to show the Pope getting shot in a Pope propaganda comic, but it was one of the things that was actually pretty brutal, in real life. Like, he got shot multiple times and lost a lot of blood and they didn't know if he was gonna make it. 

Jessika: Oh yeah. 

Mike: And then later on, he went on to basically forgive and become friends with his would-be assassin.

Jessika: Oh, wow.

Mike: It's very strange, but it, but it feels like a very Catholic turn the other cheek kind of story. 

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: Honestly, as I was writing all my notes on this episode, I thought that he had been shot at Yankee stadium. And then I had to go back and [00:25:00] reread that section specifically.

And it’s not obvious unless you pay very close attention to the dialogue.

Jessika: There, this has to be spring, like a whole generation’s worth of kids thinking that the Pope was shot in America. 

Mike: Well, especially now because we're so like gun fetish oriented or what is it? Ammo-sexual. That's the word that I keep on hearing. We're we're a nation of ammo-sexuals.

Jessika: I am tickled by that.

Mike: Yeah. You can thank Sarah for that one.

Jessika: Oh, she's amazing.

Mike: Yeah. I don't know why she's with me, but I'm not complaining. Um, so how did you feel about this comic?

Jessika: I think they did a good job making a continually captivating storyline, especially as biographies go, all things considered. It was funny because I was picking up some super queer vibes from him. The whole, like, not just the whole [00:26:00] theater thing, cause that's, that's a generalization I don't follow necessarily, but it's just, it was that whole, like having his actor friend move in with him so they could continue practicing their craft, as it was.  I'm just like, man, I've heard that before.  And yes, we hear you loud and clear.

Mike: Well, and I mean, you know, like it portrays his younger life and he is shown as a, being an alter boy and very devoted to the church. And then, and this is for anyone who is not familiar with the life of Pope John Paul, he became really interested in theater after his brother died. And he went and visited his brother's friends who were a theater troupe.

And so he got super into theater and there's a note about how a priest really wanted him to join the priesthood, and they were like, oh no, he's like, he, yeah, he's a great orator and all that, and he's got a wonderful presence, but he's going to be an actor. And the priest was apparently heartbroken, but yeah, like, anyway, sorry.  So side tangent over.

[00:27:00] Jessika: No, that's okay. I was also irritated. So at the end of the comic, they made a big deal about how a woman was also shot when he was, and that he was going to go visit her before he went back. He even said, when I, before we go back to Rome, that's what it said in the thing.  So I don't know what happened. I don't know what the whole thing was with that, because I specifically wrote back to Rome, but they never said her name nor did they actually show him going to see her, and that, definitely rude.

Mike: yeah. And I mean that whole, for something that got billing on the cover,  it's featured very little in the comic, so.

Jessika: What about, how did, how did this rub you?

Mike:  I dug it. I didn't dig it as much as Francis Brother of the Universe, to be honest but overall,  if you're going to do a biography as a comic, you could definitely have a worst subject. It felt pretty exciting. [00:28:00] He lived a pretty interesting life,  growing up between two world wars and in Poland.  Parts of it, like the bit where  he joined the secret seminary in Poland during World War II felt almost like something out of a spy story, more than anything else.

And it also felt like the comic wasn't afraid to poke a little fun at him, like when he volunteered to clean out the toilets that the Nazis had ruined. So, I kind of appreciated that it wasn't taking him as seriously as I felt it could have.  A lot of biographies would be like, no,  you can't show him in any way  that makes him seem less than saintly, which we'll get to, we'll get to that in our next comic.

But, I, I, appreciated the moments of levity as well.  The book itself, though, it does a pretty good job of making him seem like a good guy who just happened to be called to greatness, I felt.  The only parts where I really got bored [00:29:00] were the bits with the unnamed journalist who provides the framing narration while he's waiting for the Pope to speak at Yankee stadium.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: First of all, this is the first guy we see, he's the one who's the narrator and he doesn't even get a name. And then, I kind of laughed at how he opens the comic, stating the Pope is my beat, and then later on states that the Yankee stadium speaking event is the only time he sees the Pope in person.

Jessika: Yeah. I noticed that too. I thought that was weird.

Mike: It was really weird. And I mean, 

Jessika: It was inconsistent.

Mike:  It felt like the editor should have given it one more pass and they could have sat there and it, I mean, honestly, if they just said this was the last time I saw him in person or something like that, it would have been fine.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike:  And then, like I said, I was a little surprised at how little the assassination attempt was featured since it's literally called out on the cover, like whatever.  Oh, fine.

[00:30:00] Jessika: Yeah, I you're visibly watching your face. You're visibly mad about it.

Mike: I'm sorry, if you're going to promise me in assassination attempt, I want to see an assassination attempt. Don't tease me.

Jessika: Oh my gosh. How will you ever get over this?

Mike: Uh God.  It was a solid B, B+ equal to what I feel was kind of  an A-, A comic book,  or spiritual sequel, if you will see what I did there.  So the last of these Marvel Saint series comics is mother Teresa, and that's another official biography of a major Catholic figure.  This one obviously focuses on mother Theresa, who was enjoying a huge amount of publicity in the 1980s. I grew up, throughout the eighties and I often heard her [00:31:00] and Gandhi mentioned together as people who made the world a better place.

And I'm not sure, honestly, if that was because they both operated out of India and they both won the Nobel peace prize, but I feel like that sums up how the Western world perceived or , what was your awareness of her when you were growing up?

Jessika: Pretty much the same level of you'd always see her in these kind of photo-ops of  helping children out of cars and stuff.

Mike: Yeah.  The other thing is that we grew up, like, I, I feel like she's one of those people who was always old in terms of her media appearances.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: You know?  So the book came out in 1984 and that was just five years after she'd received the Nobel peace prize, and this was when she was really, really big.

Like these days, this is viewed as an incredibly problematic figure based on things she said about poverty and suffering. And then there were some serious ethical and financial weirdness that [00:32:00] went on with her missions.  But the public just wasn't aware of that stuff back then, and so given her amount of celebrity, it makes sense that they would have turned to her because she was a really relevant figure in the world back then.

And then again, because they'd had so much success with Francis and Pope John Paul, they committed some serious talent to this comic. So Gasnick actually came back and he wrote the overall story for this, but the script was done by David Michelinie. So miscellaneous had earned a lot of acclaim for his runs on Ironman and he co-created characters like venom and carnage and Scott Lang, who's also known as ant man. Yeah, so  legit people. And then the art was once again handled by, John Tartaglione. So they committed some serious stuff to it, but, I feel like you're on the same wavelength as me where you weren't as impressed this time around.

Jessika: No, no. I was like [00:33:00] snooze Fest, Mother Teresa.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika:  She didn't have any facet. She's like Superman. She was just a good person, all the way around. It's not like she had any trouble with that, I guess. Not like the normal folk.

Mike: I felt like she was more of a prop than a character in the story.

Jessika: I see that.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Yeah. I had a hard time paying attention to it, to be honest with you.

Mike: no, that's fair. It took me about three times as long to read this book.

Jessika: It's true. And the other thing that was, of course this is going to bother me. I was of course getting some serious pro-colonialism vibes from the whole Jesus and the white men know best, here I go on a mission trip. Aye. You don’t need to convert everyone. Not everyone has to believe the same thing as you, it's just not necessary. And I'm really bothered by the mindset that we all need to be on the same page about these [00:34:00] spiritual and philosophical questions, because we just never will be.

Mike: Right. And that was actually a huge thing. That was one of the big controversies about Mother Teresa is that she would do these kinds of deathbed conversions. And it seems like they weren't always to be honest, consensual.  Like you, I wasn't all that amazed.  The biography of the Pope was really interesting and exciting, but this book story was a framed by some mediocre white journalists who are just going around the world and interviewing people who know her because she won't give them the time of day at the beginning of the book, which I actually kind of enjoyed.

Jessika: I did like that, actually.

Mike:  But that's the thing is you're seeing the memories of other people.  And like you said, it feels very much like Superman where there's no flaws whatsoever and it's just, oh, she's always been selfless. Oh, she grew up in hardship. Oh, she's always wanted to make the world a better place, but you keep on hearing that story over and over again.

And there's no real action. It's also a lot of really dull exposition where [00:35:00] you know, where people are telling her about all the good things she's doing and then how they're going to help her out. And  the impact that she had on the world.  It's undeniable.  I'm just not sure that her life makes for an interesting comic book.  Maybe it's just the way the book was done since she doesn't really feel like a main character in her own story. Also the fact that they're basically using the same framing device that they did in the last one, and

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: Those narrators play a much bigger role in the Mother Theresa comic, because they're clearly trying to make it interesting and hold the reader's attention.  I did learn that this book won the Catholic press associations award for best book of the year in the youth category in 1984, which yeah.

Jessika: What? Who was judging that?

Mike: I feel like that kind of says more about the availability of Catholic kid-friendly books at the time.

Jessika: Yeah.  And the youths weren't judging that contest.

Mike: No, like, no. I mentioned earlier, I'm [00:36:00] not sure how well these other comic books sold, but there is an obituary for Tartaglione that claimed the Pope John Paul biography actually sold millions of copies. And it's the same thing with the Francis Brother of the Universe one, because it clearly did well enough that they wanted to make this Pope John Paul comic.

And then there's  an online archive for Gasnick that's hosted by a Catholic organization and they actually show all the different languages that the comic was printed into. Now.  I really want to get a copy of the Japanese one now, because it came with  a really beautiful book cover.  It's lovely. And plus, it's just kind of a cool artifact, you know.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: But, I don't know  how well the Mother Theresa books sold, because , there are numerous articles providing circumstantial evidence, talking about how well Francis and Pope John Paul sold. And then they'll say, oh, and then there was also this Mother Teresa comic. There's no further information. So, I [00:37:00] get the impression it maybe didn't do as well as everybody wanted it to.

Jessika: Oh, big dreams, Mother Teresa.

Mike: I know, to be honest though, my impression is that the Catholic church didn't really have any other figures with this much name recognition, like St. Francis is a pretty major character, even outside of Catholicism. My parents' church was named after Saint Francis and they were Episcopalian, and Pope John Paul and Mother Teresa had that kind of international rockstar, celebrity, that few others could even dream about in an age when viral fame wasn't really a thing.

Jessika: Agreed.

Mike: So yeah, it seems like everyone kind of looked at these books overall its wins and then they decided to walk away from the table while they were still ahead, which, is kind of the opposite of what happened in 1992, but we're going to talk about that next episode.

[00:38:00] Jessika: Ooh.

Mike: I'm going to leave it on a cliffhanger moment, but, what are your final thoughts?  How do you feel about these eighties Catholic comics?

Jessika: I mean, so far it's kind of a mixed bag. The Francis Brother of the Universe, I thought that was, it was fun. I enjoyed reading that one. You know, I, I even enjoyed reading the majority of the Pope John Paul II. And then we got to mother Teresa and literally I fell asleep and like, yeah, I do a lot of my reading in the evening,

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I'm a night owl it's it was not the time.

Mike: Yeah. Comic books shouldn't want you to sleep.

Jessika: No, it was the content. So.

Mike: Yeah.  I think I've got that nostalgia factor a little bit too with the Francis book. So there's one of these books that I still absolutely love. And it's got this [00:39:00] very soft spot in my soul, if you will.  And the Pope John Paul comic, I agree. It's mostly fun.

It's not flawlessly there's no part of the Frances book that I sat there and really skipped through. It was all interesting. And then Mother Teresa, I.

I'm not exactly thrilled that it's part of my collection now.  But at the same time, I feel like I can't get rid of it because it's, you know, part of that trilogy, that holy Trinity of Saints comics, if you will, sorry, all the religious puns keep on coming out tonight.

Jessika: Well, I was just thinking about the fact that I don't even think it's that I think . You're worried about throwing away Mother Theresa don't lie to me.

Mike: Yeah. I feel like I, what happens when you piss off a Catholic Saint? I don't know.

Jessika: She's going to be staring at you from the trash can. Like, why did you do this to me?

Mike: Oh, she already looks like a goblin. That'll be scary enough. 

[00:40:00] 

So now is the part of the episode where we discuss our brain wrinkles, which are the one thing comics or comics adjacent that has been on our mind lately. I've been talking for a spell. So why don't you go first.

Jessika: Okay. So I've actually been really irritated about something comics related.

Mike: Ooh.

Jessika: Aye. You're shocked. I'm sure I've never heard about irritated about anything in this world.

Mike: What you, no, go on.

Jessika: What, what? So, I collect this six inch Marvel Avengers action figures by Hasbro. They're just the really simple ones, really only the arms and the head kind of moves and the arms kind of move one way. They're cheap. They're just like what, five, six bucks at the checkouts stand.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: And I collect them because I action pose them in my hanging plant garden in all my macrame. So they're just in all my plants, just flying around, but [00:41:00] what irritates me, I'm convinced that they just don't make the female characters in their widespread kids toys series.

Mike: Oh, they don’t.  That's.

Jessika: It pisses me off and they make some of the antagonists even.  I have Thantos and I can't get the Scarlet Witch or Black Widow? It just bothers me so much. It's hard enough to get the female characters in any kind of movie of their own or any kind of thing of their own.

I was really happy the Scarlet Witch, getting a spotlight. And I'm glad that Black Widow is getting one too, but it's just  you could say leaving the best for last, but you just kind of forgot didn't you?

Mike: Yeah, that actually reminds me a little bit of the cartoon Young Justice. So they had two seasons of that show and then it got canceled and apparently it got canceled because the core audience for it wound up being [00:42:00] young women.  And as a result, they weren't buying the action figure toys that were being marketed because they were all male action figures.

Eventually they wound up bringing it back for DC Universe and then HBO Max, it's a great cartoon, but I just remember getting so irritated where I was like, really, instead of actually trying to make toys that would appeal to the audience, you just canceled this fucking show. All right.

Jessika: That's so annoying and it, you know, it really bothers me that we always assume that boys won't play with action figures of girls.

Mike: Yeah. It's dumb.

Jessika: And yeah. And we absolutely need to quit. Assuming the girls won't play with action figures at all.  Because they will.

Mike: I'm actually, I'm really surprised that they're not making female character action figures now. Like it's like the last couple of years, I feel like that's been flipped, but I guess it's still a [00:43:00] thing.

Jessika: Yeah. It's it's just. *sad noises*

Mike: I'm sorry. 

Jessika: No, it's okay. It's okay. It just makes me want to write like angry letters and, you know, cause I want action figures too, goddammit.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, what about you? What's sticking deep in your brain?

Mike:  It's going back to that collection that I got from my parents' house. So part of that collection, one of the other cool things that was included is the 2002 Taskmaster mini series from Marvel, which sent me down a rabbit hole of Marvel Unlimited because you know, they've got all the back issues on there.  Taskmaster is a villain who's also become a bit of an antihero. He's been around Marvel for a while. He's this mercenary who usually uses his power of photographic reflexes to mimic the moves of other heroes. And he's had three dedicated mini series so far and they're all really good. Like they're really fun, and [00:44:00] each one tells a very different story and they all explore his character in really interesting ways. And the last two series have been really funny, which means I'm kind of bummed about how generic he looks and all the promo stuff that they've put out for Black Widow the movie. Like he's a dude who wears a cape with a hood and has pirate boots and is just bristling with weapons.  And that is not what we're getting.

Jessika: I love that though.

Mike: Oh yeah. It's super over the top and theatrical.  His whole thing is that he has a mask that looks like a realistic skull, as opposed to that helmet, that's got kind of a vague skull motif.

Jessika: Yeah, that's way scarier.

Mike:  It is, but at the same time, he hangs out a lot with Deadpool.  And so there's that zaniness to him as well. And instead we're getting this kind of, I don't know, mute generic [00:45:00] bad-ass character and all the trailers who looks like he has some cool flashy moves, but it doesn't really seem to go much beyond that. I don't know, like it might surprise us, but who knows, but it's also made me realize how forgettable most of the villains in the MCU are.

And I wish Marvel would just give us more characters, like Loki who make repeated appearances and then develop some real depth and then evolve into something more than what they are when they first appear.

Jessika: Yeah, it'd be nice to see.

Mike: Yeah. Well with that, I think it's time to wrap things up. We'll be back in two weeks, where we will continue the story of Marvel's foray into Christian comics, and until then we'll see you in the stacks.

Jessika: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us; text transcriptions of each of our published episodes [00:46:00] can be found on our website.

Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, while our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from PremiumBeat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes on Instagram by cut_thistles.

Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is tencenttakes. Jessika is Jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K. And Mike is Vansau.

V A [00:47:00] N S A U.

Mike: Stay safe out there.

Jessika: And support your local comic shop.

What do the 1980s, children's programming, and unbridled capitalism have in common?

In our first episode, we talk about the history of children's programming, what led to the Saturday Morning Cartoons so many of us grew up with, and how comic books helped created some of the biggest brands of the decade. ----more----

Have questions/comments/concerns? Shoot us an email: tencenttakes@gmail.com

Today we're talking about how  –during the early 80s– some of the top creators in comics came together to help raise money for famine relief in Africa. The results are... wild, to say the least. 

----more----

To find a local foodbank, check out Feeding America's website: https://www.feedingamerica.org/find-your-local-foodbank 

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

----more----

Welcome back to another episode of Dollar Bin Discoveries! This time, Mike and Jessika found some cool finds from legendary writers Grant Morrison and Cullen Bunn: St. Swithin's Day and The Heathens. 

----more----

Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

We're revisiting Mike's childhood to take a long look at DC's Super Powers Collection, the action figures that inspired all sorts of tie-in products like puffy stickers, Play-Doh sets, and multiple comic book series from Jack Kirby. 

----more----

Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Come for the badly-animated action scenes, stay for Chuck's bizarrely-read moral "lessons" delivered in a crop top and short shorts. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

'Tis the season to discuss the Holidays and their role in comic books. We take a look at the history of holiday comics in general, as well as the 1990s Marvel Holiday Specials in particular. ----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Sources Cited:

Marvel blog entry: "A Journey Through Marvel Holiday Specials Past"

• https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/a-journey-through-marvel-holiday-specials-past

Den of Geek: "How Marvel Went From Bankruptcy to Billions"

• https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/how-marvel-went-from-bankruptcy-to-billions/

It's time to get bit by a suspicious spider and slip into some spandex! This week we're joined by our Podcast BFFs Dear Watchers for a roundtable discussion about the various Spider-Man films and how they're all connected. ----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

We're officially a weekly show! Welcome to our first (mini) episode of Dollar Bin Discoveries, the show where we talk about interesting issues we come across while looking for episode topics. In this episode, we discuss AniMax #1 and Lenore, the Cute Little Dead Girl (v2) #1.  ----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Did you know that Marvel created a comic in the 1980s with the express purpose of licensing it into a line of action figures? Or that some of its art became a central piece of a musician's iconography? Buckle up, everyone. It's time to talk about The Saga of Crystar: Crystal Warrior. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Howdy, pardner! This week, it's time to saddle up and embrace the Code of the West as we talk with Alphabet Flight about the cult 90s cartoon Wild West C.O.W.-Boys of Moo Mesa!

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Special thanks to Art from Alphabet Flight for joining us on this episode! You can find him on every podcast platform, or head over to https://anchor.fm/s/9161a01c/podcast/rss and copy/paste that RSS feed into your favorite podcast player. 

Twitter: @AlphabetFlight Instagram: @alphabetflight Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/alphabetflight

• DC Comics Year By Year: A Visual Chronicle by Alan Cowsill and Alex Irvine
• Ron Goulart’s Great History of Comic Books
• Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide to Lost Universes

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries, the sub-series where we talk about interesting comics we've come across while digging through dollar bins. This week, we're talking about Action Comics 645 and Instruction for Making a Proper Offering to Forgotten Gods.

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Welp. This is it. The final episode of our Sandman Book Club. We're discussing Volume 10: The Wake, as well as our final thoughts on the series overall. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Alright, everybody. Let's get weird. This episode, we’re talking about Debbie Does Dallas: The movie, the comic, and the mysteries surrounding both. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Our friend Dale Lazarov of Sticky Graphic Novels has a Kickstarter! Go back it:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/comicmix/tapstuds-the-latest-project-from-sticky-graphic-novels 

Ron Johnson’s “The Butterfly Effect” can be found here: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Butterfly-Effect-Podcast/B08DDD6299

Hello, everyone, and Happy Pride! 

In honor of Pride 2022, we're doing a mini-episode to talk about a little queer history in the four-color realm. Today, we're discussing the first same-sex kisses in mainstream comics. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

If you'd like to learn more about queer history in comics, you should check out the LGBT Comics Timeline over at Gay League: https://gayleague.com/lgbt-comics-timeline/ 

No, it doesn't have anything to do with the incredible 1994 animated series. Yes, we wish we'd focused on those comics instead. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Hop into your big rigs and get ready for a wild ride! In this episode, we're going to be talking about U.S. 1, Marvel's licensed series about a long-haul trucker who also happened to be a superhero.----more----

Episode 12 Transcript

[00:00:00] Mike: If you're a middle-aged white guy, maybe trying to sit there and write about the troubles that indigenous people from other countries face, maybe don't do that. Just my ten cents.

Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we hand-wave plot holes like it's nobody's business, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my cohost of chaos, Jessika Frazer.

Jessika: Well, hello. 

Mike: Hello.

Jessika: How are you doing? 

Mike: Uh, I am doing a lot better now that I am not on jury duty anymore. So.

Jessika: Woo. 

Mike: I mean, don't get me wrong. It's a [00:01:00] civic duty that we should all be happy to perform, but it's really nice when you don't have to do it.

Jessika: I've been on a jury before. 

Mike: Was it, a cool case?

Jessika: No, it was a disturbing, unsettling case, but it was still a civic case? It was just, Yeah.

It was, it was not great. And I couldn't talk about it. So let's just say I, I took out a lot of my angst with a tennis racket against the wall. Not, not the racket itself, but hitting the ball against the wall a lot.

Mike: Yeah, 

Jessika: But, civic, duty, it is. So I was 19 at the time. 

Mike: I think the last time I had to report for jury duty in person I was 25, give or take.

Jessika: Mm. 

Mike: And then I got dismissed because they asked me if I would believe a teenager's word over a cop, and at the time I was like, hell no. And these days.

Jessika: Yeah. Different opinions now. 

Mike: Yeah. [00:02:00]

Tangent aside, the reason that we're here on this podcast is because we like to look at and talk about comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We like to look at the weirdest, silliest, strangest, and coolest moments, and examine how they have been woven into pop culture and history in general. 

In this episode, we're hitting the open road of the Marvel Universe and looking at U.S. 1, a 1980s maxi-series about a superhero big rig trucker. But before we go down that road, what is one cool thing that you have read or watched lately?

Jessika: So, I had a suggestion made to me by Lauren, from Outer Planes in Santa Rosa. Hey Lauren. And she told me about a comic that is set in the same universe as the Alice in Leatherland that I started reading and I've had on my pull list now. 

Mike: Yeah, the one that you mentioned a couple episodes ago? 

[00:03:00] Jessika: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so it was also from Black Mask and it's called Destiny, NY.  I'm on issue one, which is a veritable chonker,  it's absolutely awesome. There are two girls kissing in a closet within the first three pages, so you know I'm already in. And it's cool because it's set in a version of New York where magic exists, and follows a school for kids that have been told by one seer or another that they have a destiny or a prophecy to fulfill. And the students have different abilities and visual characteristics, like one has a third eye and she's supposed to like, see the greatest lie out of the truths or something like that.

And she's like, but I don't even know what that is.  It's all super vague, like these poor kids. And I've grabbed the first five issues, and I will be tearing through these and no [00:04:00] time. I'm sure, cause it's already super fun. 

Mike: Yeah, that sounds fantastic, to be completely honest. There was a book that I read about a year ago called Magic for Liars, which is a boarding school for magic users. And then the sister of, one of the faculty is called in to investigate a death, and it's really cool because she's not a magic user, but her sister who is part of the faculty is so it's, it was cool. I liked it a lot.

Jessika: That's neat. 

Mike: But yeah, that was a cool book. 

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, what about you? What you've been reading, watching, listening to? 

Mike: All right. So I'm always mildly embarrassed to admit that I'm a Conan fan, mainly because I think so many people just associate them with Arnold Schwarzenegger and those middling to not-good movies that they made with him in the eighties. Um, yeah, but I really fell in love with his Comics back in 2005 or so,  when they were being done by Dark Horse and they were really, really good.

They were these wonderfully dark, low fantasy stories that always seem to [00:05:00] balance like action and tragedy and comedy really well. And Marvel got the character back a couple of years ago, so they've been doing really cool work with them lately.  The new Conan series is really fun and feels really true to the original stories, but they've also displaced him through time, and now they've got them hanging out in the mainstream Marvel Universe via this series. 

Jessika: Oh, interesting. 

Mike: Yeah. And it's in the series called the Savage Avengers.  It's wild. It's written by Gerrry Duggan, who, he wrote, arguably the best Conan story that I've ever read in Conan 2099, which is they took that Spider-Man 2099 universe, and then they slapped him right in the middle of it. 

Jessika: Oh. 

Mike: It it's great, like the way that it was written was so perfect. And it's one of those books where anybody who sits there and even if they say they're not a Conan fan, I just say, you need to read this. It's wonderful.  But anyway, so Savage Avengers features him going on adventures with characters like Wolverine [00:06:00] Deadpool, the Punisher and Electra.

It's so dumb, but it's so much fun. Like, early on in the series,  he gets a Venom- symbiate joined with them, but it's really weak. So it can only form weapons for him. 

Jessika: Okay. 

Mike: It's just it, it’s great. It's an absolute guilty pleasure, and I refuse to apologize for this. So it was unfortunately not available in Marvel Unlimited, which is probably why I hadn't heard about it, but the back issues are all pretty cheap, and I grabbed a ton of them from Brian's comics on my last run, and I've just been having a blast reading them. We probably should do an episode actually, where we talk about the fact that Conan has been in comics for almost 50 years. And 

Jessika: Oh. 

Mike: He started at Marvel originally, and now he's back at Marvel, but there was a long hiatus.

Jessika: Ooh. I want to hear that arc. Absolutely. 

Mike:  All right. Moving right along. 

So as tempting as it is to just dive right [00:07:00] into U.S. 1 the comic and its strangeness, I don't think we can talk about it without covering some background info first. So, have you ever heard the term trucking culture before?

Jessika: I've absolutely heard of trucking culture, but I'm not too familiar with the intricacies.  My uncle drove a truck for years, but I think he's retired at this point. 

Mike: Okay. I think it's something that a lot of people aren't really aware of, or they hear about it and then they start making jokes. Like, I got some glimpses of it when one of my photography gigs have me living on a tour bus for a few months. So, we would visit a lot of legit truck stops in the middle of nowhere.

And I'm not talking gas stations, I'm talking full rest stops where restaurants served truckers before other patrons,  the bathrooms had shower stalls and all of the stores felt like kind of miniature Walmarts. They were just massive. And they had anything that you could think of you might need on a long road trip.

[00:08:00] It's this side that, if you live in an urban environment folks, aren't really going to see or understand, and it's the staggeringly huge thing that most people never even seem to think about. But I mean, trucking is this major part of the United States and its industry  as noted in this factoid from the American trucking associations, if you would be so kind.

Jessika: Nearly every good consumed in the U S is put on a truck at some point. As a result, the trucking industry hauled 72.5% of all freight transported in the United States in 2019, equaling to 11.84 billion tons. The trucking industry was a $791.7 billion industry in that same year representing 80.4% of the nation's freight bill. 

Mike: Yeah. It's I was actually, I was really surprised actually to see that it was that much. I assumed that trains [00:09:00] and shipping were at least a little bit bigger.

Jessika: No, because we don't here's the problem is that because of the auto industry in the United States, we stifled the ability to make all the train tracks necessary, to get the things to all the places we need. And now it's horrendously expensive to go on a train. Yeah. I don't know that people know that about the United States.

So for our international listeners: you can't take trains here, it’s very expensive. 

Mike: Yeah. First of all, there's no real national rail system. And, and second, the rail system that does exist is prohibitively expensive, unless you are a not far distance commuter.  Like I took Amtrak for a couple, for about a year traveling between Sacramento and San Francisco a couple of times a week.

And it was great. It was less expensive to do that a couple of times a week than it was to drive down. But [00:10:00] yeah, it's prohibitively expensive for most people. 

Jessika: Yeah. And there are some cities in the United States that do have a decent transportation system. Portland has a decent one in New York, obviously that there are other places to Chicago, yeah.  But I mean, for the most part across country, especially because we're such a large country,  and we are of course expected to share things. California has to share everything. Listen to me, I sound so greedy.

Mike: I know. Yeah. What does it, we have the, I think it's like it's top five or top 10 economies in the world.

Jessika: We're the top sixth economy in the world by ourselves. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, So if we just dumped off everyone else, the rest of the states would be screwed. Actually a few would hold their own, but those middlin’ states.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Suffering. 

Mike: Well, as big as it is, the trucking industry, as we know it, [00:11:00] isn't even a hundred years old. Uh, yeah, so really, trucks were first used extensively by the military in WWI, and then trucking became prominent in the 1930s because of the increased construction on paved roads. So, it didn't take long after that, before truckers became a part of American pop culture. They started having songs and movies about them.

And as noted by Shane Hamilton in his book, Trucking Country: the Road to America's Walmart Economy, there was this mythology that almost lionized truckers. 

Jessika: Hmm. 

Mike: If you would, uh, do us all the favor of reading out the section that I found that describes it pretty well.

Jessika: The image of the respectable trucker circulated outside the world of Hollywood in the 1950s. As truckers became known as the Knights of the Road for helping stranded motorists, and using their blinkers and [00:12:00] headlights as courtesy signals. This image was further reinforced by the standard driver's uniform of the era: trim, neat pants and button shirt, and the chauffeur's cap.

The masculine mythologies of trucking moved increasingly into a wider cultural world in the 1950s and 1960s. As the image of the truck driving man was reflected back to truckers by movies and music. 

Mike: Yeah. So the 1970s were when trucking hit, it's kind of Zenith point and pop culture. They wound up being presented as kind of this modern version of cowboys, you know, wandering nomads who rebelled against the oppressive rule of law while still operating under their own kind of honor code.

There were a ton of movies and songs during this decade that romanticized the trucker life. And a lot of these have since faded into obscurity, but this was the period when we got that song Convoy by CW McCall, which also inspired a movie with a very young shirtless Kris Kristofferson, um, [00:13:00] uh, Smokey in the Bandit came out in 1977 and it was the number three grossing movie of the year behind Star Wars.

And there's also a really bad Chuck Norris action Flint called Breaker Breaker. Like it was a moment in pop culture.

Jessika: Are you really going to say that a Chuck Norris movie was bad? What if he's right behind you? 

Mike: I mean, yeah.

Jessika: It's always a threat. Don't don't deny it. 

Mike: Man. Remember when we all used to like Chuck Norris and we thought he was cool before we went off the deep end and it turned out he's just the worst. Remember those days?

Jessika: Oh no. We have a nefarious character, nefarious character alert. 

Mike: Yeah. What a shock. 

Jessika: Oh, not on our podcast. 

Mike: I know. All right. Well, okay. So the [00:14:00] eighties, this all started to change in the eighties when truckers started being portrayed more villainously, or at least poorly in media, like Thelma and Louise, you've seen Thelma and Louise, right? 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. You remember how there's that gross trucker who keeps on harassing them.

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike: Yeah. And, the eighties, it was starting to decline, but it wasn't quite there yet. The nineties was when it really picked up and we'll discuss that in a little bit, 

Jessika: Hmm. 

Mike: But at the time that this comic project started, big rig truckers were still on the high side of public opinion.

So we've talked in previous episodes about how Marvel wound up undergoing a commercial Renaissance in the early eighties, under the guidance of Jim Shooter. Particularly, you know, with Saturday morning cartoons and all that stuff. 

Jessika: Mm. 

Mike: One of the major sources of the success came in the form of toy companies, partnering with the publisher for licensed comic adaptations and arguably, the biggest example of this kind of success came from [00:15:00] partnerships with Hasbro when Marvel created the characters and lore for both Transformers in G.I. Joe. So U.S. 1 was a comic that came about from another partnership, but this one was with a different toy company. It was called Tyco Toys and Tyco wanted to do a licensed comic based on their U.S. 1 brand of slot truck toys. 

Jessika: Oh, so this was all based on the Tyco truck, even.

truck even. 

Mike: Yes, it's a little bit different than the standard Tyco truck, and we'll talk about that in a second, but you know, Tyco probably doesn't sound familiar to people that are younger than us these days, but they were a company that originally made model trains for hobbyists. And then they started making slot car toys in the 1960s, which are the cars that you press the trigger and they go around a track and you can build out the track how you want.

So, by the eighties, this brand was the one that was dominating that particular section of the market, the slot car toy section. [00:16:00] And at this point, they decided to create some slot truck toys. It was branded U.S. 1 Electric Trucking, and it launched in 1981. And it was based on the earlier racing sets, but it had a couple of unique features.

You could drive the trucks in both forward and reverse, and you could also have the trucks pick up and deliver loads of, and this is the quote, action accessories with that direct interaction from the person operating it. And the tagline was “you control the action”.

So I've got this commercial that I found on YouTube, because YouTube has everything and it's actually really cute. You want to give it a shot?

Jessika: Sure thing. [00:17:00] Oh, this is really exciting. Oh! That’s actually a really fun. 

Mike: Right.

Jessika: No, that’s super freaking fun. That is that's super fun. 

Mike: Yeah. So Tyco came to Marvel and they said that they were interested in having a comic adaptation done. And, the comic wound up being written by Al Milgrim, who’s actually, he's a pretty interesting dude in comic history, he worked as a writer, and editor and inker, and a penciler during his career.

And he was particularly known for this long tenure editing Marvel Fanfare, where I think he edited it for like a decade.  Also the real reason that he's an industry legend though, is because Marvel actually fired him after he hid some messaging in a panel background where he was badmouthing Marvel Harris.

The then recently departed editor in chief of Marvel.

[00:18:00] Jessika: Oh, damn. That's cold. 

Mike: Yeah, it was actually really funny and you can look it up, where he basically wrote some messages vertically on the spines of books in the background of a Spider-Man comic. And there's some weird happenstances about how, I think the editor caught them and had the wording removed. And then, through some error, that image got used instead and went to publish and yeah, it's, it's kind of amazing, but he was actually a full-time employee, which was really rare for one of the people who was actually creating the comics.

And so it's this, you know, he was, he was actually fired by Marvel.

Jessika: Wow. yeah, From what I've read, most of them were freelance, so that's actually super interesting. 

Mike: Yeah.  It's an interesting story. And it's one I would love to talk to him about someday, which we'll discuss that later. I legit love that story about how Milgrim got, let go, because it's totally a move that I would pull.

[00:19:00] And then the series was originally drawn by this other long-time Marvel artists named Herb Trimp.  he'd made a name for himself with the Incredible Hulk, and also he is known as the first artist to actually draw Wolverine for publication because he drew the, he drew the issue. John Romita came up with the character design in sketch, but he was the one who actually first drew him in a comic, which was cool.

Jessika: That’s super neat.

Mike: Yeah. And so Trimp also, wasn't a stranger to projects like this. He had recently worked on G.I. Joe. He wound up penciling the first two issues, and then Frank Springer came in to finish out the series, and Springer was another reliable artist from Marvel and he had also been involved with G.I. Joe and Transformers.

Milgrim actually has an essay at the end of the first issue called In the Driver's Seat, where he talks about the comics. And it starts with how Tyco asks for the common treatment and then goes into his first meeting with Jim Shooter about the projects. And I kind of love this description where he talks about how he wasn't [00:20:00] really sold on the idea originally.

Jessika: Frankly, I wasn't sure. Nobody had ever done anything with trucks and comics before. When I voiced the concern to Jim, it was as if I had slapped his face and challenged him to a duel.

Exactly! He exploded. Nobody has done it before. Maybe nobody thinks it can be done. There may even be a lot of resistance to the idea, but we can do it and do it well. I got caught up in the challenge, Jim and I did not fight a duel to the death, lucky for him. Instead, we began discussing the idea of a truck driving hero.

We talked about the romance of driving a truck, the dedication of those self-sufficient loners who drive the big rigs, we got swept up in the notion, began to solidify the concept of a trucker with a mission, a goal, a quest. 

Mike: Yeah, it's kind of charming to hear how enamored he got with the project during that first meeting. [00:21:00]  The essay also mentions that Marvel's animation division, which as we've also covered in that episode about Saturday morning cartoons, was a thing that they had, was working on what sounded like a TV show pitch.

And there might be some toys and animated series in the future, but spoiler, that never happened. I'm curious, how would you summarize this comic series?

Jessika: A lot happened. So a lot happened. This series was wild from start to finish. It starts with introductions to Ulysses Solomon Archer, or USA, and his brother, Jefferson, or Jeff after their parents who are truck drivers die in an accident, US and Jeff are raised by Wide Load,. Who's a woman, and Poppa, who are the owners of a truck stop named Shortstop.

Mike: We need to stop this for a second. You need to, you need to acknowledge them by their full [00:22:00] names.

Jessika: I'm sorry. Remind me what Poppa's name is. 

Mike: Poppa Wheelie, and it’s Wide Load Annie, and Wide Load Annie.

Jessika: Okay. Let me re say that. Okay. Excuse me. 

Mike: I'm sorry. It's just it's too good.

Jessika: No, you're right. I'm not even going to cut any of this. I'm just going to leave it. No, you're right. I couldn't, you know what, honestly, because I couldn't remember what their full names were when I was writing this out. I was like, this is good enough. So, so yeah, they're the owners of a truck stop called Shortstop and US is this All-American blonde haired, white boy, who has it all going for him. He's literally good at everything without trying. And he's encouraged by Wide Load Annie and Poppa Wheelie to get a college education, even though he knows he wants to be a truck driver, just like his folks, and his adoptive parents and his big brother, Jeff, who he idolizes. [00:23:00] And Jeff is your classic, dark haired boy who just can't seem to keep up with US’s successes, and also becomes a truck driver obviously, and seemingly mostly as a backup profession, which is kind of interesting how they they're both like encouraging and disparaging of truck drivers inparts. And I'm like, it's kind of strange. There's a give and take. I don't know what it is. I don't know if you felt that too. 

Mike: It's the whole thing of, he is not good. Jefferson is billed as being not good at school, but US is. And so they're like, no, you have to go to college, you have to make something of yourself. And Poppa and Wide Load and Jefferson all support him and send him to school. And Jefferson is doing it via job in trucking.

Yeah, they talked about how expensive colleges in those days. And I'm like, my dudes, it's 1980. You could literally go to college on a minimum wage job. And it talks about how also, I think he had scholarships and.

Jessika: Cause he was good at [00:24:00] everything. 

Mike: and he double majored in computer 

Jessika: Electronics. Yeah, exactly. 

Mike: Electrical engineering, I think. And then, and then.

Jessika: Computer sciences. Yeah. Uh, Yeah. it was a whole thing. 

Mike: It's a thing. Exactly.

Jessika: So during a drive with a young US, Jeff's big rig is run off the road by a devilish figure he calls the high women just prior to driving off a cliff. The truck explodes and Us is gravely injured in such a way that he evidently needs a skull replacement?

Mike: You know? Sure. 

Jessika: Have you heard of that?

Mike: No.

Jessika: Usually with a skull replacement, you’re going to be a lot worse off than just, like, gonna in a pop awake in a couple minutes after you put something metal back on there, 

Mike: Yeah. It's, uh, I believe they worded it as, oh, is this experimental treatment and I'm like, what? Okay. 

Jessika: Which already was so [00:25:00] sus. 

Mike: Yeah. And they, basically replace his skull with it’s, in this comic, it’s implied that it's like just the top part of his skull that like, you know, protects the brain. Later comic appearances, it is very strongly hinted that they basically do a brain transplant into, or, that they basically just give him a metal skull of some kind.

It's like, there's no bone to be seen, but.

Jessika: Like a new head completely? Lord. Goodness gracious. Well, so after that, he vows to find his brother who he's like, I couldn't find him in the crash. It's like, bro, like you kind of couldn't look for him. You had a concussion, like you're not an expert in finding bodies in an explosion. I don't know how he just definitively was like, well I guess everybody else told him that, that he, the body was never found or whatever, [00:26:00] but.

Mike: Yeah, that’s true.

Jessika: Yeah.

So he decided he's gonna find his brother as well as the mysterious Highwayman that he yelled about right before. And he quickly finds out that he can pick up CB radio waves from his fancy new skullcap, and somehow has truck becomes self-aware and he can communicate directly with it? And it's making its own decisions. Inexplicably. It's not well explained, once again. 

Mike: It's so truck originally, he builds a remote control into like a half dollar, so he can drive it really like, like a precision driver with his remote. But then later on, I think there's, it was like some kind of like a lightning strike or something or electrical overload that then allowed him to directly interface with the truck.

And then the truck is also self-aware at times where it's providing narration for an entire issue. And we'll talk about that, too.

Jessika: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. [00:27:00] It was the weirdest thing.  I was kinda on board with most of it. And then the truck was having its own inner monologue. And I was like, wait a second, guys. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Oh, goodness gracious. And then there's also a spy planted within the truck stop in the form of a mind-controlled waitress, Mary McGrill, which their names, all their names. 

Mike: The alliteration and stuff and puns. It's great.

Jessika: Exactly. It's so cheese. I love it. And she uses this wacky mind control whip, and there's drama about the truck stop being foreclosed upon and being sold to make condos. And, and then DUN DUN DUN! Jeff turns out to be the Highwayman! And they are aliens looking for the best person, read trucker, you know, of course on earth to be some kind of space ambassador?

Mike: Yeah. It's not well explained. 

[00:28:00] I think it had something to do with they wanted people to pilot their star ships,  because they were like accustomed to like long bouts of being on their own and stuff. 

Jessika: Yeah, it was, it was a whole thing too. And then apparently all humans look alike to the aliens. 

Mike: I thought that was funny as fuck. That was. 

Jessika: I thought that was hysterical 

Mike: Because the aliens are so weird looking.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And so apparently they had been scoping US this whole time, cause he's like the golden child, but then they accidentally swooped Jeff instead, because they made a mistake and Jeff was just like, yeah, I'm going to go with it.

So once they figured out their mistake, they felt really bad about wasting all of their time and effort on this, this putz. And so then they of course had to have a race to make sure who was the best one to be the space ambassador, whether it was [00:29:00] going to be US, who dun dun dun the aliens gave him the skullcap! 

Mike: Yup. 

Jessika: Or his brother who has been working with the alien tech and has, like, a time advantage and a training advantage. So it's of course, US wins. I mean, come on. So of course they just get sent up into space? And he gets to take the whole truck stop with him? And all of the people?

Mike: Yup.

Jessika: It's the Rapture?

Mike: Yeah. And then the greedy bankers who are left behind, who are going to take the property that the truck stopped. I think they, they wind up getting dosed with some kind of radiation.

Jessika: Yeah, the, they were going to build condos on the land and then it ended up being radioactive. And so the buyer ended up pulling out.

Mike: Yeah,

Jessika: Like right there, because that's how that works. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So yeah.  The end. That's it.

Mike: Oh yeah. [00:30:00] And then the other thing is that for the first half of the series,  we are given to believe that the Highwayman is demonic in origin. Like they do a whole thing where,  he's got his own mind-controlled, big rig that runs them off the road or whatever.

And, he's surrounded by devils when he's looking down triumphantly on the wreckage and there's, you know, it's the mythology of the open road where they're like, oh, he was this trucker who, apparently, couldn't keep up anymore with the younger truckers and their newer rigs. So we cut a deal with the devil and it was, I actually kind of dug it.

It was ridiculous. And over the top, but it was great. And then it turns out it was just, I don't know, some disguise that he put on just the fuck with everybody.

Jessika: He did the Scooby Doo unveiling where he pulled a rubber mask off of his face, and I about lost my mind. 

Mike: Yeah. Okay. What was your overall impression of the series?

Jessika: It was a fucking [00:31:00] wild ride, but it was fun. I liked that it was so random at times. It legitimately kept me guessing the whole way. The topics though, they were not subtle with the overbearing American patriotism and the overt disdain for neo-Nazis, which obviously I'm behind.

Mike: I mean, whatever that was fine.

Jessika: that was great when they dropped the, the neo-Nazis in Televiv.

Mike: Oh God. Well, and the funniest part was they were, so  one of the  antagonists for us is Baron VonBlimp, who pilot, he, he looks like, he looks like kind of this weird aristocrat from like turn of the century, Europe. No, he's I think he even has a monocle. And then towards the end, when he shows up in his blimp, he drops out and he's got a bunch of Nazis with them and, you know, they've got the swastika, armbands and everything, and then it's revealed they're not actually Nazis and he's not even German.

He just liked how the uniforms looked. And then the aliens are like, whatever we're [00:32:00] done with this. And they literally hand wave them away into Israel. And I was like, that's, that's just magnificent. Just chef's kiss.

Jessika: Oh, yeah, I did actually really like that. So, so what about you? What did you think about this? 

Mike: I mean, it's one of those comics where I never expected to enjoy it as much as I did, but there's something so silly and pure about this entire story. It feels like the kind of thing that a five or six year old kid would come up with while playing with their trucks, you know, like monsters and aliens and races against air ships.

And then you hand wave away things when you want to change the narrative. And it  somehow kind of works actually. Like, I don't know how, but it kind of does.  I really loved, like I talked about, I love Baron VonBlimp, I thought he was just so weird.  And then I liked how the Shortstop is essentially the Mos Eisley Cantina, but it's got better coffee.

[00:33:00] And it seemed like every time that we first visited the place, someone was getting thrown through a window, which was of.

Jessika: Absolutely. There was always a fight scene. It reminded me of a saloon, like one of those old-timey saloons with  people getting thrown out double doors and things crashing. 

Mike: Yeah. And then we talked about how US’ his truck was self-aware, but, but I love the bit where Papa refers to it as a she and the trucks that there and says I'm not ashamed, but I'm secure enough in myself. That it's fine. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I was like, that is weirdly topical through a 2021 lens, but this is also really good. And also every cover to this comic, it is a work of art. 

Like, like the styles vary, but they're really cool looking and they're just really weird. Yeah, I mean, it was just, it was a blast. Were there any highlights for you, or any lowlights.

Jessika: So I have to say my eyes just about rolled out of my [00:34:00] head, where the aliens showed up and needed chicken parts to make their ship work correctly. And the rivalry between the two female characters was pretty contrived.

Mike:  I did like how  they were trying to sit there and spin it so you didn't know who was the sleeper agent? I thought that was kind of cool, but yeah, they were, you know, they were fighting over Us and that was dumb, but it's also, you know, it's the 1980s. What are you gonna do?

Jessika: Exactly. Had to have some sort of, you know, forced love triangle of some nature. But I have to say I was oddly charmed at the editing notes from Ralph Macchio, all people?

Mike: Uh, editor with the same name as the, yeah.

Jessika: Oh, okay. All right. Wow. Goodness gracious. Cause I was like giving that guy a lot of credit.  

Mike: Nope.

Jessika: I did like that though. I did like the little comments, the little editing notes,  it was a little much [00:35:00] sometimes, but I love that he was throwing shade at the writers sometimes, or reminding the reader about the previous events or where you could read about them. And it was interesting how in depth they recapped each issue, but it must've been nice for the readers who weren't starting from issue one. 

Mike: Yeah. And especially because it was a maxi series and then it started in mid 1983 and then it ended in late 1984. So, it went from monthly to bi-monthly, and it was not a big name comic in the first place, so it makes sense that they would sit there and provide that background for readers.

And I also really appreciated that it was all the same characters over and over again, so that it wasn't doing anything crazy new, but at the same time, each of those issues you could pick up except for the last couple. Pretty easy to understand.

Jessika: Yeah. I would say so. 

Mike:  I mentioned earlier that  this was another licensed comic that was designed to help promote a toy line, but as [00:36:00] opposed to G.I. Joe and transformers, though, this wasn't nearly as successful. Comichron, which is a site that tracks sales data for comics doesn't have 1983 data in place yet,

but the site comic book, historians has this incredible online community. And I actually wound up posting there and asking if anyone had any insight into how the comics sold and Al Milgrim himself wound up chiming in if you would be so kind. 

Jessika: I'm sorry, what? That's cool as heck. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Wow. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Okay. Well, I got a, sorry, I got a little nervous. Oh sure. I think the first issue sold around 160,000 or so, not great for a first issue, but respectable. Marvel only contracted with the toy company to do a dozen issues.

I'm sure the sales went downhill from there. Still think the book was some good silly fun though (I may be [00:37:00] biased). 

Mike: Yeah, I was really stunned. This, the comic book historian group actually has a lot of amazing industry professionals involved in it. I've seen writers like Mark Wade chime in, the owner of Mile High Comics routinely posts about comic book history as well. They have a podcast and a YouTube series.

They did a long series of interviews with Jim Shooter that was really cool, which actually, I think did a lot to kind of redeem his character a bit because a lot of people viewed him as a villain in the comic book and yeah. 

Jessika: Oh. 

Mike: But yeah, Milgrim was super cool to chime in on that. And I wound up talking to him briefly afterwards and he said, he'd be open to doing an interview with us at some point.

So maybe there'll be a  Part two to the U.S. 1 episode. 

Jessika: That's exciting. 

Mike: Yeah.  The comic series ran for roughly a year and a half and it ended in October of 1984, the U.S. 1 toys were moderately more successful, they lasted until 86. And then after this trucking and pop culture continued to undergo this shift. [00:38:00] And it feels like the nineties, as I said, was when things really started to significantly change.

We talked about Thelma and Louise. There was that Kurt Russell trucking movie called Breakdown, where the villains were truckers. And then. I mean, it's kind of still how they're portrayed these days  in media. I really don't think it helps that the FBI released this five-year study back in 2009 that linked long haul trucking to serial killers.

Jessika: Oh. Wow. 

Mike: Yeah. And it's one of those things where it's not saying all long haul truckers are a majority of long haul, truckers are serial killers, but that there are a number of serial killers who are long haul truckers. And it makes sense because there's a lack of supervision. And also you can pick someone up in one state, killed them in another and then drop them off, dump the body in a third.

And also a lot of times the people that they pick up are people that no one really misses.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: On that high note.  [00:39:00] The funny thing is that this isn't where Ulysses S. Archer’s story ends. So even though this was a licensed comic book for a company that was eventually acquired by Mattel,  it seems like Marvel still owns the rights to the characters themselves because Ulysses pops up every now and then he's usually like the supporting character but sometimes it's as to this one-off deep cut.

So he appeared in a couple of issues of John Burns, Sensational She Hulk in the early nineties, he was supporting the She Hulk for a few issues. There was a brief cameo and the 2010 series new Avengers where he applied to be a babysitter for Luke Cage and Jessica Jones’ daughter 

Jessika: Oh, geez. 

Mike: It was, it was actually pretty funny.

He wound up helping out Rocket Raccoon in this backup story of a 2011 series called the Annihilaters, and then he also teamed up with Deadpool around the same time. And that's the issue where you see, it looks like he's actually got a fully replaced skull made out of metal. They, they, they do one of those like cross section cuts where you see [00:40:00] where you see underneath the scan, it looks like he's got just an all-metal skull.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. And then after that,  we haven't heard much about him in the Marvel Universe, but weirdly his brother Jefferson has appeared a bit too. So, he was listed as a character in the Dark Reign files, which was a who's who guide to various Marvel villains in 2009.

And it actually retcon his story. Basically it claims that the highway man, after staying on earth wound up actually cutting a deal with Satan, in quotes, whoever that is. And then he wound up fighting against ghost writer. And then aside from the issue where Deadpool teamed up with his brother, he winds up fighting against Deadpool again in 2016 or so.

Jessika: That's super random. 

Mike: Yeah. And now we're in 2021 and it's been a few years since we've seen Ulysses and his friends show up. But I personally think that we're kind of overdue to have them come back like.

Jessika: I [00:41:00] want to see Poppa Wheelie in something. 

Mike: Right.  I would love to see him show up as a strong support character in one of those like heroes on the run stories where, whatever hero of the book is being pursued by,  the government or something like that. And then he basically winds up providing kind of a mobile base of operations or something like that.

And then he helps them keep our heroes one step ahead of the law. 

Jessika: Yeah. Like he floats down on the Shortstop, like space station or something. Yeah. That'd be cool as heck. 

Mike: Yeah or something,  I mean, there's so many different ways you could go, you could have him come back to earth and he just winds up working as a trucker again, because that's what he really likes. He misses driving through the natural beauty of America, something like that.

You know, I think there could be some really fun opportunities.  And I really hope that Marvel brings him back at some point, because he was just this really fun, weird character. And it was strange and it was silly, but it was also very sweet.

So that is U.S. 1 in a nutshell, [00:42:00] what are your final thoughts on it?

Jessika: I think it was a lot of fun. It was bananagrams, you know, all the way to the top, but  it was fun. 

Mike: Yeah.

All right. It is now time for that part of the episode called Brain Wrinkles, which is when we like to discuss things that are Comics related that are just sticking in our head and won't get out.

Do you mind if I go first? 

Jessika: Oh, please do. 

Mike: All right. I was going to talk about the recent news that Marvel's hired someone to direct Blade, but I'm actually way more excited about something else. There's this podcast called Comic Book Couples Counseling, which is this absolutely rad show. It's hosted by married couple, Brad and Lisa Gullickson, and they take relationships between comics characters, and then examine them through the lens of different self-help love gurus.  

So they've been super supportive of us so far. Like they've actually retweeted [00:43:00] our stuff and their show is really fun. But, I was recently reading through a whole bunch of nineties Valiant comics that I managed to pick up from the Bat Cave in Santa Rosa when they have this blind box sale.

And one of the series contained in these boxes is called the Second Life of Dr. Mirage. And it's one of the series that I collected when I was a kid it's about this married couple named Hwen Fong and Carmen Ruiz, who were his pair of psychologists. Hwen is this kind of like nebbish little guy, and Carmen is this bruiser, like, she's the bad-ass of the pair.

There's this early scene where she winds up saving him from zombies because she's a master of Kappa Wera, which is, you know, it makes sense, cause she's from Brazil. And then in the first issue, they run a foul of Valiance resident necromancer named master dark and he kills Hwen, but then Hwen comes back as a ghost, sort of a ghost kind of a thing.

Jessika: Hm. 

Mike: But I was reading through the series and I was really struck how this was a superhero comic that actually focused on an [00:44:00] adult relationship and relationship issues that come along with the supernatural stuff, like early on Carmen has a pretty heartfelt talk with her undead husband about how difficult it is for her emotionally, because he's still with her, but she can't touch him.

Jessika: Oh my god. 

Mike: And anyway, so I wound up tweeting about it, cause I thought the couple would make a good topic for Comic Book Couples Counseling, and they wound up picking up all the back issues like that day. And they're going to do an episode about the characters. So I'm super excited to listen to this. 

Jessika: Oh, that's super fun. 

Mike: Yeah,

Jessika: See, and I was going to talk about the same thing. 

Mike: I’m sorry, I stole your thunder.

Jessika: No, that's okay though. They're so good. So I'm that person who has to start from episode one, because.

Mike: They've got a lot of episodes too.

Jessika: They do they're back to 2018. So  I just went all the way back and it's so [00:45:00] fun though. I like to get that rapport.

I like to make sure I have that parasocial, you know, relationship really hooked in there with all the podcasts I listen to. So, the first section that they did cause they always do kind of like a month at a time, focused on one set of characters. The first one was the relationship facets of Jean Gray and Scott Summers from the X-Men. And I love the X-Men. So, it was really neat to hear all of the different ways that they had a relationship and then they were comparing it to a book about relationships. It was very interesting. It was very topical, and I liked that they also are very sweet and introspective about their own relationship.

Mike: It's really lovely. 

Jessika: Yeah. And like what they can do, what they can take out of it to apply to their own marriage, which is it's so sweet. So thank you guys. You guys are great. 

Mike: Yeah. Comic Book Couples Counseling, Brad and [00:46:00] Lisa, absolutely friends of the podcast. 

Jessika: Absolutely. 

Mike: And you know, if they ever want to come on here, they are more than welcome and we will talk about whatever they want to talk about. 

Jessika: Open invitation. I'll even read a I'll even. I'm not in a couple, but I'll read a self-help book. Like if that's what it takes. 

Mike:  All right. I think that's all from us. we'll be back in two weeks and until then, we'll see you in the stacks. 

Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson- Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan MacDonald, and was purchased with a standard license from PremiumBeat.

Our banner graphics were [00:47:00] designed by Sarah Frank. You can find on Instagram as @lookmomdraws.

Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com, or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is @tencenttakes. Jessika is @jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K, and Mike is @vansau, V A N S A U.

Mike: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen.

Jessika: Stay safe out there. 

Mike: And support your local comic shop.

Today we're discussing two early 90s Marvel comics we found in the dollar bins. One of them is a series most people never heard of, the other is... um... mildly upsetting because of its cover content. 

----more----Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries, the sub-series where we talk about interesting comics we've come across while digging through dollar bins. This week, we're talking about Marvel UK's WildThing (or Nikki Doyle: WildThing, it's a little unclear) and Lola XOXO.

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Pull on your pirate boots and ready your sheks, because it's time to talk about one of DC's strangest, least-known comic series from the 1980s: Spanner's Galaxy! 

----more----

Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Let's go back, BACK, BACK(!) to the 80s and talk about one of the first Marvel superhero movies to ever come out: The Punisher starring Dolph Lundgren! And –because we're talking about a classic 80s movie– we brought in some experts: Santos and Freddy from the incredible podcast 88 Miles Per Hour. So sit back, relax, and get ready to murder some criminals... 80s style. 

----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

The guys from the 88 Miles Per Hour Podcast were so generous with their time. Special thank you to both Freddy and Santos. You can find them on every podcast platform, or head over to https://eightyeightmphpodcast.podbean.com/ and smash that subscribe button. 

Twitter: @88mphPod Instagram: @88mphpodcast Linktree: https://linktr.ee/BrothersBearNetwork 

Hey, there, fellow heroes in a half-shell!

This week, we're examining how the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles evolved across approximately 30 years and four comic book series. 

In this episode, we're looking at: 

• The original Mirage series
• TMNT Adventures from Archie Comics
• The short-lived Image Comics series from the 90s
• IDW's 2011 series

----more----

Episode 11 Transcript

[00:00:00] Jessika: You're going to cut all this bullshit, 

Mike: Oh yeah, of course. 

Jessika: Okay.  

Hello? Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we share hot and delicious slices of comic-flavored facts, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazer and I am joined by my co-host, the man of mystery himself, Mike Thompson.

Mike: Ooh. I like that. 

Jessika: You're mysterious. 

Mike: I'm really not. 

Jessika: You're just a voice to these people. 

Mike: That is true. 

Jessika: Let this parasocial relationship happen for them.

Mike: Fine. 

Jessika: So, Mike, do you want to tell our listeners what this here podcast is about?

Mike: This is payback for last week, isn't it? 

Jessika: Certainly is.

Mike: Yeah, [00:01:00] fine. So here at Ten Cent Takes, we like to talk about comics and we like to talk about how they are interwoven with history and pop culture. Sometimes our conversations are weird, sometimes they're funny, but hopefully they are always interesting. Come for the deep dives, stay for the swearing. 

Jessika: Fuck yes.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Well, today we're going to be taking a deep dive into the comics of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, how they got their start, the people and the publishers involved, and some information and opinions about the different iterations of this beloved comic. 

But before we go any further, we have corrections and announcements. Mike, you want to start us off?

Mike: Yeah, sorry. So I realized after the episode about the ninja turtles movies that I said, Howard the Duck was done by George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, but it was George Lucas. Spielberg and Lucas worked together on some other major projects in the eighties, but not Howard the [00:02:00] Duck. You will be pleased to know that I was correct about Corey Feldman being a generally terrible human being. So, no apologies there. 

Also, we are going to continue our giveaway raffle in exchange for sending us a screenshot of a review that you leave for us on Apple podcasts.

It doesn't matter what the rating is, we love five stars, but we'll take anything. We will enter you into a drawing for a $25 gift certificate to NewKadia. If you can get your review in before August 5th, that will be roughly a month from when we first announced the giveaway, that would be great. And then we will contact the winner directly. just take a screenshot of your review, email it to tencenttakes@gmail.com, and that's all you have to do. 

Jessika: Go get you some prizes.

Mike: Yeah. 

 Jessika: All right. So good news, everyone. We now have both an Instagram and a Facebook account, so we will be posting episode updates and potentially bonus posts related to the [00:03:00] episode. So feel free to follow us. We're at Ten Cent Takes at both of those places.

All right. So, Mike, do you want to mosey along to one cool thing that you have read or watched lately?

Mike: Yeah, I guess I can be tempted to go that route. so I've been actually reading a lot of cool stuff lately. I actually just did a big run to Brian’s Comics in Petaluma, and, and had a huge haul of stuff on my pull list, cause it had been about a month since I was there and I'd added some stuff to it. But, something I picked up just this week from Brian's is this new book called the Nice House on the Lake.

It's published by DC under its mature Black Label imprint. And it's written by James Tynion IV  who he's also writing Something is Killing the Children, which I've at least told you about in the past. I don't know if I've talked about it here. 

Jessika:  I've started reading it. 

Mike: Yeah. I mean it's - Something is Killing the Children is also excellent. And this is his new [00:04:00] series and he's doing it with  Alvaro Martinez Bueno, who has recently been doing art for Detective Comics. And it's hard to describe without spoiling it, but the gist is that there is a group of people who are invited for a nice weekend at this mutual friends, insanely luxurious lake house.

And it feels like we're kind of getting set up for a murder mystery, and then things take a turn for the terrifying in a really unexpected way. And I'm really excited to see where the series is gonna to go. But if you haven't read it, pick it up. It's great. 

Jessika: You always tell me about the best horror comics, which is really cool.

Mike: I mean, a lot of them come from Brian, to be honest. 

Jessika: Thanks, Brian.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Absolutely friend of the podcast, Brian.

Mike: Yeah, no. Brian is fantastic.  If you were in the North Bay, highly recommend going to check out Brian's Comics in Petaluma, it's an awesome little shop. And Brian is one of the friendliest people you could ever hope to meet. 

Jessika: it's so cute. You have to go underground [00:05:00] kind of you like walk downstairs. It's not really underground, but it feels like it.

Mike: Also, he has a really sweet dog who hangs out in the shop too. 

Jessika: Yes.

Mike: So that's what I've been consuming lately. What about you? 

Jessika: I myself have been on quite the half-shell recently and just deep diving into turtles. And I have found the- I can barely contain my excitement. I have found the absolute best thing. Listen up turtle fans! There's a 24-hour Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle network that plays nothing but the animated into turtle series.

Like, all of the animated series, even the old school ones. it's called Totally Turtles. I found it free with ads through Pluto TV on my fire stick. This is not an advertisement, I'm just really excited and I wanted to share it with everyone. And I'm hoping that they're turtle enthusiasts listening. It's such a blast.

And despite the obnoxious children's commercials, which are horrendous and on repeat by the way, I feel so sorry for all of you parents. 

Mike: So wait, so is this, can you select the episodes you want to watch or is it like [00:06:00] an actual TV channel? 

Jessika: No, it’s like an actual TV channel. I know. So it is streaming. They kind of do this weird marathon thing where they play back like a block of one show. So I haven't seen the OG comic come up yet, but I've seen like all of the other ones, so it's pretty neat. 

Mike: I mean, there've been so many shows over the years.  I can only imagine how much content there is for them to broadcast. 

Jessika: Yeah. They have like a whole like montage in there of all the different ones. And I was like, oh, oh, look at all these shows, all these turtle shows. 

Mike: Yeah. I'll have to check that out. I, I keep meaning to rewatch the original animated movie mini series, whatever it was that they did for that led into the cartoon. 

Jessika: Yeah, we used to have some movie that was probably  some merchandising schwag from some company, but it was like a pizza monster that they were fighting.

Mike: That sounds really familiar, but I'm not sure.

Jessika: And on VHS 

Mike: Why. [00:07:00] Yeah. All right. 

Jessika: It's like a yellow case. Yeah. I'm just saying I can see it.

 So. So today we're going to be discussing the four main volumes of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Comics. But before we get into it, I want to call out my resources, cause I had quite a few again for this episode, I'm sure you're sensing a theme here with me and research. So we have the Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle documentary, turtlepediafandom.com, which is my best friend, Kevin Eastman's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Artobiography.

See what he did there. 

Mike: Yeah. I dig it.

Jessika: Which that book, by the way, if you're a fan, Tom told me about this book, Tom Belland told me about this book and it is so good. And it goes through the first eight issues of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it's by Kevin Eastman, so it talks about the process of it and this.

Mockups sketches that they [00:08:00] did, like actual sketches from the comic. It's just, it's really neat and lots of little details about how they were making it and stuff. So, back to my resource, I just got so excited about that. I read an article from Indiana University Bloomington's E. Lingle Craig Preservation Lab Blog, and a couple episodes of the Ninja Turtle Power Hour podcast, which is really fun. 

Mike: Yeah, that show’s great. 

Jessika: Yeah. Got a couple of tidbits from them. So, yeah, thanks guys. 

Mike: Friend of the podcast as well. They are, they have been very supportive of us in our early days. 

Jessika: Yeah. So that's, that's really fun. Now we've previously talked about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on this show.

In episode one, Mike ran us briefly through the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles history, like the startup, and mention a couple of the iterations of the characters. And in episode nine, I covered the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles live action films from the nineties. If you haven't already, I highly recommend checking out those episodes for more [00:09:00] turtle-y goodness.

During this episode, we'll be going further down the rabbit hole, looking at the history of the start of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Comics, more in depth and how they evolved over the years. As another little tease, we won't be covering the rest of the merchandising television or other related media in this episode, but stay tuned because I fully plan on doing an additional episode about the Turtles.

While we'll be touching on the main volumes of comics from the overarching storyline, just know that there are micro issues and single character adventures along with a whole slew of other comics, crossovers, and pot lines that I simply don't have time to get into today, but just know that they are out there.

And, if enough of you ask really, really nicely, maybe I'll cover some of those issues in a future episode. You won't have to ask very hard.

Mike: You really won't. 

Jessika: You won’t.

Mike: I don't think you guys understand how [00:10:00] excited Jessika was about this episode. 

Jessika: excited. Like it will, he, it will show in my voice. My face is bright red, by the way, I am Scotch-Irish, my face is showing it.

All right. before we get too solidly into our main. Mike, which of the Ninja Turtles is your favorite. And has that favorite changed at all over the years as you grew up?

Mike: I think that all six year olds identify with Michelangelo when they first get into the Turtles, and I certainly was no exception. I've bounced around since. I think I'm probably closest to Rafael these days, mainly because I nurse a grudge like nobody's business. 

Jessika: Oh, is Raphael petty?

Mike: I’d like to think he is, He strikes me as the guy who would absolutely go and troll white supremacists on Facebook these days. 

Jessika: I don't know anyone like that.

Mike: No. [00:11:00] No. 

Jessika: Oh, my goodness.

Mike: Well, how about you? Which one did you identify with? 

Jessika: Well, I also really liked Michelangelo. I mean, he was the party dude after all, and he's still pretty solidly my favorite is I can absolutely relate to being a huge ham. Hi, everyone. But I have such a greater appreciation for Donatello these days, because he really is the brains of the operation.

And should he be sorted into a Hogwarts house, he would definitely be with me and Ravenclaw.

Mike: Which turtle would be sorted into Hufflepuff. Do you think? 

Jessika: Hufflepuff. I want to say that Michelangelo would be a Hufflepuff, cause he just he's just like so accepting of everyone.

Mike: Yeah, I guess, Yeah. I guess Michelangelo would be a Hufflepuff. Leo would be a Griffindor. I don't think any of them would be Slytherin, so I think Raphael would also be Griffindor.

Jessika: Not any of them probably, unless he was like, [00:12:00] Hmm, what if he was a little evil? He might be a Slytherin.

Mike: Maybe. I don’t know.

Jessika: Because Slytherins don't have to be evil. I think they get a bad rap. 

Mike: It's like ambitious or something like that. 

Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. Raphael, Raphael might be ambitious.

Mike: I mean, the first time that you met me and Sarah, Sarah had on a Slotherin t-shirt and I had on my Hufflepunk jacket. 

Jessika: I had huge appreciation for both of those things.

So. And I have to say too, that some of the more recent TV series have portrayed him in an even nerdier way, like Donatello, I mean. That I connect with even more, which is really fun. And, that's what I like best about these characters is that they really do have different relatable characteristics that makes their storylines just that much more compelling to a diverse audience, in my opinion.

Mike: Yeah. 100%.

Jessika: So, as Mike mentioned, in our first episode, the series was started by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. Throughout high school, Eastman had been trying somewhat unsuccessfully to [00:13:00] break into the indie comics market, and had had several of his proposals turned down before being picked up by a small publishing company, Clay Geerd's Comix Wave while he was still in high school. 

While he was still in high school, let me reiterate. After graduating, he moved to Portland, Maine to go to art school and founded a comic magazine called Scat with another person. After having more of his art rejected by local publishing company. One of the people at the company told him about Peter Laird with the belief that they had a lot in common.

And indeed they did. They had very similar interests, shared a love of creating and of comic artist, Jack Kirby, and immediately started doing short stories together, each bringing different strengths and new ideas to their collective works. In fact, Jack Kirby would also be a future style inspiration for the turtles Comics.

Interesting, huh?

Mike: Yeah. That actually checks out based on how bombastic the [00:14:00] turtles series became because Kirby's art, I mean, Kirby was such an iconic artists that there's this whole style of. It's like an energy explosion, it’s called the Kirby crackle, And it's those, those circles within energy beams that now it's just kind of a thing that you see in comics a lot of the time. 

Jessika: Oh, that's interesting.

Mike: And he also had that very, very sharp edged geometric shape to all of his drawings as well. 

Jessika: Yeah. Oh wow.

Mike: So yeah. 

Jessika: So this friendship and interest in the creation of comics led them to form MiragevStudios, which was named after the idea that their quote unquote studio was just Laird's living room. So it was really a play on their lack of having a physical studio space.  Their goal was to be able to make their living doing the thing that they loved best, because at this point, making comics was still very much a side hobby while they both still worked full-time, Eastman stating that he had been cooking lobsters in Amherst to get by. One of their earliest comic [00:15:00] characters was Fugitoid, whom they would fold into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles storyline later down the line.

Mike: That was the time-traveling robot, right? 

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike: I remember him. I had his action figure. 

Jessika: That's cool. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were conceived during what is described as a casual night of brainstorming Eastman drew a ninja turtle, finding the idea of such a clunky and notoriously slow creature being a ninja, really fun. He thought to himself: Okay. So what if Bruce Lee was an animal? What's the stupidest animal Bruce Lee could be?

And he's like, a turtle.

Mike: Yeah, that checks out. So this was what, like the mid-eighties?

Jessika: Yeah, they drew this in ’83.

Mike: I mean, martial arts and ninjas were such a thing in pop culture back then, too. 

Jessika: They were.

Mike: I just, I remember Chuck Norris had a really terrible ninja movie or two around then as well. And I just remember the eighties [00:16:00] and the early nineties still having this fascination. 

Jessika: that was actually part of why they drew the turtles.

Mike: Ah.

Jessika: Was, it was a play on the fact that it was, it was a parody. It was a parody on the fact that so many people were doing ninja movies and a few other aspects were also parody, but we'll, we'll get into those later. Very astute, Mike.

So, Laird drew up his own rendition after Eastman first drew up that first stupid looking turtle. Right. It wasn't even super looking, it was really cool. And with Eastman then drawing four turtles, all with different weapons and he wrote Ninja Turtles over the top. And Laird was like, you know what? Nah.

And he added Teenage Mutant to the top of the ninja turtles. So they each had a hand in making the whole collective thing. 

Mike: That's great. 

Jessika: Yeah. And  the sketches together. You can see where both of their ideas formed the larger idea, which is super neat. 

Mike: Mhmm, [00:17:00] 

Jessika: So Mike, can you read this next section for me?

It's an excerpt from Eastman's Artobiography regarding the sales of the first issue of the teenage mutant ninja turtles.

Mike: Absolutely. Tired of rejection letters and inspired by the newest self-publishing movement, especially Davidson Cerberus comic, we pooled our money and borrowed some more from my uncle Quintin to come up with enough to print 3000 black and white comics we were sure would never sell. May 5th, 1984 we premiered the first issue at a local comic book convention.

It was incredibly exciting, but I was back cooking lobsters in June. In early 1985, the sales for book two exceeded 15,000 copies. And by mid 1986, Turtles book number eight shipped more than 125,000 copies. I was drawing comics all day and supporting myself, the dream had come true. 

Jessika: That's so cool.

Mike: That's awesome. 

Jessika: One of the things that they budgeted for were special drawing boards, which would update the black and white [00:18:00] comic to include shades of gray. This board is called Duoshade by Graphix. And because I'm a little Donny in my approach to, well, everything, I had to know how this worked. So I did a little digging.

The artists would do the initial drawing and pen out the lines on a special pretreated board, then would go in with a paint brush and brush over the areas with a special developer that would reveal either a light or a darker tone hatching or pixelated pattern, depending on the developer used. This added an extra pop of shadowing without the effort of physically cross-hatching everything by hand.

And because it was hatching instead of solid color, like paint, this fit the style of many different types of hands. The way this worked is through of course, science! You see the hatch lines or pixels are preprinted onto the special board using a chemical like silver nitrate that was subsequently blanched with a substance like mercuric chloride [00:19:00] to make it invisible to the naked eye.

And two other chemicals are used to either reveal hatch or crosshatch marks, basically. One of the chemicals reveals one hatch causing the lighter shade, and the other revealed the crosshatching that was darker. And there are other chemicals that could be used in place of the ones I mentioned, and they don't seem to advertise the specific recipe ingredients for the updated formula, unsurprisingly.

But this technique was invented in 1929 and was in use until 2009 when it was considered obsolete in the face of digital art and technology.

Mike: That's so cool. I had no idea that this was a thing. 

Jessika: It's so neat. So, whenever you see like the pixelated comics and stuff, that's all that kind of board, I'm sure.

Mike: That's a really slick, I mean it makes sense that it would be obsolete now because you can sit there and just do, you know, brushes and layer masks and things like that with comics, it’s not that hard, but yeah, that’s, wow.  

Jessika: Science!

Mike: That must've been such a time-saver for them. 

Jessika: Oh yeah, [00:20:00] that definitely. They said literally it just took the stroke of a brush and you could give more depth and just shadowing to everything. Will you do me a favor and read this quote about this process that I found on the Indiana University Bloomington's E. Lingle Craig Preservation Lab Blog?

Mike: Sure. This process is very far from magic, though it surely seem that way for artists. After dipping their brushes and clear liquid, the path of their brushstrokes immediately turned dark as it traveled across paper. The phenomenon was easy to overdo, leading to images with many toned areas that, when reproduced into small comics and magazine ads, turned out cluttered and unclear  artists, commended peers who knew when to stop. 

Jessika: Yes. Gentle hand. And here, I'm going to send you a comparison.

So, the top half of this, and we will post this on Instagram, the top half is just in inked, and the bottom half is the same couple of [00:21:00] frames that are also shaded with  the Duoshade graphics.

Mike: Oh, wow. This is really slick.  Is this from the Artobiography?

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. It's from the Artobiography.

Mike: Okay. oh, okay. Yeah. So I recognize this, this is from the first issue of the original Mirage series. 

Jessika: Sure is.

Mike: And it's when they're in their rooftop battle with the Foot. And the original, like just kind of sketch or line art.

It shows Donatello, and the rest of the turtles and a couple of panels getting into these battles and it's, it's fine. It's black and white. And then you look at the difference in terms of shading underneath this. And it's insane how much depth there is. Like they added entire skyline with this.

It's crazy. It's also, I feel like it's a little bit over done on the bottom. Like with the shading like this, very clearly like the early days of the turtles, but it looks really cool, especially when you do the comparison. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And I almost wonder how much, since they hadn't been producing very much,  I wonder how much they were using these boards, [00:22:00] know, beforehand. I wonder if this has maybe, like you said, the early days.

Mike: I would be willing to bet that they were pretty new to this and, we're learning when to stop. 

Jessika: Yeah.

So, the turtles and their storyline were initially created as a parody, like we were talking about to some of the popular Comics of the time, especially Daredevil, with similarities and characters names, such as the Foot clan when Daredevil included the Hand. 

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: And in some of the situations, such as the highly unlikely way that the canister containing a radioactive solution flew out of the back of a truck, striking someone in the head hitting and subsequently breaking a glass aquarium containing four baby turtles who fall directly into a manhole where they're then covered in the radioactive liquid that leaked out of the container that broke upon hitting on the ground.

This situation highlighted the unlikely way that Matt Murdoch got his powers to become Daredevil. When a radioactive substance fell out of a moving truck and blinded him as a child. So, very [00:23:00] much a play on that. There's also the funny correlation between Daredevil's mentor Stick and the turtles mentor being named Splinter.

Mike: I never even thought about that before, but that's really funny. This is all stuff out of the Frank Miller, eighties run of Daredevil too, which he almost fetishized Asian cultures in certain ways and was very into ninjas and martial arts and noir, and you can see that later on in his other books like Sin City, but Daredevil, I feel was like, where that really got stuck. 

Jessika: Yeah. And definitely with, the parody, that's exactly what they were going for. They were making fun of that whole aesthetic.

Mike: Well, yeah, because, everything about the Miller books of Daredevil are so grim and gritty and wrought. I can't read them with a straight face, but that's just me.

Jessika: So, Eastman and Laird, like you read in that quote, didn't necessarily think that the comic was going to go anywhere. So much so that they actually killed off their main villain, the [00:24:00] shredder in the first issue.

Mike: I was going to talk about that. 

Jessika: They killed him off. They just really didn't think that there was going to be an issue two. 

I find it really interesting that a comic that was initially thought to be a one-off has turned into such a world-renowned and beloved franchise.

Mike: Mmhm. 

Jessika:  Fun fact for all of you out there. The first volumes of  the teenage mutant ninja turtles were in black and white with all of the turtles, sporting red bandanas when the covers were finally colorized after the boom in popularity of the series. The only way to really tell them apart where their respective weapons. 

Mike: That was the same case with the original Ninja Turtles video game on Nintendo.  I remember getting this when I was a kid and I was sitting there going, oh, they, they have the same color bandanas, but we know who they all are because they all have different weapons, but they were all sporting red bandanas. 

Jessika: Yeah, I think I might remember that because we had the Nintendo games, too.

Mike: Yeah. Uh, they sucked, They were [00:25:00] really hard and I hated them. I felt like I was a really bad gamer because I couldn't beat it. 

Jessika: No, honestly, in that, of course we’re, unsurprisingly, we're in a Facebook group about the Ninja Turtles. Everybody that I've read talking about the games. It's like, oh, I never beat that game, I couldn't be that game. It was way too hard. It's, it's not just, you don't feel bad. So, we read the first few issues of the Mirage comics, the OG comics, which tell the origin story of the turtles and Splinter and their quest for vengeance, for the death of Splinters, former master and their ongoing rivalry with Shredder and his gang, the Foot Clan. What did you think about these first few issues?

Mike: You know, I had never really read them all the way through before now, and it's really interesting when you're basically reading the first content ever created, when you're here at the point where you're 40 years later. It's kind of charming because there's so much exposition where they're setting everything up.

[00:26:00] It's overly earnest. It's silly. it's also much more bloody and violent than you would expect. And the funny thing is, so I was reading this digitally via Hoopla and so they actually have the colorized versions now where, it's all been remastered and everything, but I remember, the giant two page spread where they're fighting the Foot on the rooftop and it's like real bloody.

It's so strange to sit there and read all of this and have the knowledge of where they have gone with it since then. But at the same time, I can also understand why nobody in the eighties thought this was going to go anywhere. It's just, it’s, for lack of a better term, it's just, it's silly. 

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: And, It is a parody, but at the same time, it doesn't entirely feel like a parody, it feels a little bit overly earnest.  I never would have sat there and said, this is going to be the thing that every kid under the age of 10 is going to be interested in because, it's really violent.

Like, they sit there and they straight up murder, some street punks who are, I think mugging someone. Was that what happened? [00:27:00] Like at the very end when the cops drive up and you see the bloody hands leftover and. 

Jessika: Yeah, they were just street toughs. I agree.

Mike: Yeah.  And also, it was weird to see recurring acts of basically domestic violence, because Hamata Yoshi's girlfriend is first beat up by Shredders older brother, and then Shredder vows vengeance after Yoshi kills Shredder’s brother. And then Shredder shows up in New York and basically murders first Hamata Yoshi, and then his girlfriend or wife at that point. It's more than I would have expected. 

Jessika: Yeah, well, and I love the convoluted storyline, cause I think they were having a laugh with that too. Everyone’s on a quest for vengeance.

Which is such a theme for the turtles. They're always going for some sort of vengeance because you know, of course that's their whole game. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: After this. So that's yeah,

Mike: And then, like you said, shredder, when I read the first issue, he basically has a [00:28:00] thermite grenade, and gets knocked off the roof while holding it, and then they sit there and make a comment on, oh, well, I guess the shredder got shredded where they just find bits of his armor left.

I was like, oh, that was a surprise. 

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. And then they turned around and went, oh shit. Oh shit. We have to make an issue two.

Mike: Yeah. Ups. 

Jessika: Which, if you're playing it as a parody, it must be even funnier to have the person you just killed off, come back mysteriously.

I found it really interesting that April started off as an assistant to a robotic engineer when she's most often portrayed as a reporter.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: And she gave it, it comes back around, you know, she's she and other iterations. She becomes , a lab assistant again, or, something having to do with STEM. I also really, really liked the rough style of the comic and how the frames are very obviously hand drawn and hand lettered.

Mike: Yeah. I like how, in some of the speech bubbles, you can [00:29:00] see the letters are squeezed a little bit more together at the end cause they just ran out of room. 

Jessika: Well, and Eastman even said he was so glad to have somebody when they finally got big enough to have somebody come in and let her, because he's like, I'm so bad at spelling. It's like, I was never this person who spelled, and so there's one place because I'm just a Donatello. Hi, here I am. It's like, I saw the little, like, they meant to put “were”, but they put the little apostrophe in there and I was like.

Mike: Oops, 

Jessika: Eastman, that's adorable, but it's almost like having like  a finger print or a thumb print on some, like something handmade, like a handmade mug or something like that.

That's the artists’ imprint. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And again, now that I know that this was written as a parody, I have a much better appreciation for the over-the-top twists and coincidences that led to the turtles’ predicaments. 

Also, can we please address the insult, slime puppy, that April shouts of bags?

Mike: It. [00:30:00] So it reminds me a lot of, in the X-Men animated series, Wolverine keeps on busting out, I think it's like, piece of gutter trash, or something like that. And you're like, oh, that's, that's cute. 

Mike: You're, you're trying guys. You're trying. 

Jessika: At what point was that, the thing? That's the thing you're going to write down right now. Okay. Right.

So, after the success of the 1987 animated TV series, the comic was getting a little too hot for just Eastman and Laird to handle on their own. And after a few issues, they hired freelance artists to help with creating the series while they took on more of a business side of things. It was really important for Eastman and layered that the artists involved had ownership and received royalties for their work.

So, there ended up being a lot of issues, not only with continuity, but also with rights and the use of the comics and the storylines created. To this day, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to find copies of [00:31:00] some of the comics created by these other artists, especially since some of the artists refused to sell the rights to their storylines or characters back to Mirage,

and therefore those issues were unable to be reprinted. So bye, bye. One of the interesting partnerships of that time was with Archie, and that's how Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures was born. The first issue was on shelves and emblazoned with the Comics Code emblem, finally, in March of 1989. Wow, that was a big sigh.

Mike: Anytime someone mentions the Comics Code Authority, I just, I feel like I need a good rainstorm to just stare at sadly. 

Jessika: While I agree with you, you have to admit that it was a rite of passage.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: For, like getting into mainstream and having your your shit recognized, you know?

So that must've been huge. 

Mike: I mean, the comic [00:32:00] stores that I went to when I was a kid, they wouldn't put stuff out on the shelves. If it didn't have the comics code seal of approval. And then by the time I was like 11 or 12, because you started having more and more independent publishers that didn't adhere to it.

Jessika: Exactly. No. I mean that's yeah, absolutely.

Mike: Would you consider Teenager Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures? Would, would that be like, volume 1.5 almost?

Jessika:  Yes. Yes I would. 

So, now that the turtles were officially, family-friendly. Written and illustrated by Eastman layered and Steve Levine.

These differed greatly to the original comics. In fact, they had the same style color, and kid-friendly vibe as the TV show, which makes a lot of sense because, well, Archie. Will you give us a rundown of these comics that we read and share your opinion with us?

Mike: Yeah.

So these seem to pick up immediately after that initial TV movie animated series thing, where [00:33:00] the turtles defeated Shredder and Krang, and then trapped them in Dimension X. Shredder gets sent back to earth by crying in the first issue and has to basically start from the ground up to get his revenge.

There's a whole scene where he winds up in a park in town and some guys tried to mug him and then he basically intimidates them into giving him their money, and then he goes and takes over some, what was it Slash for Cash dojo, I think was the name of it. 

Jessika: Yeah. It was like a name nobody would have had, which I have to say about those, those street toughs, Shredder’s, like, oh, I must be a New York because I just got mugged. 

Mike: That was great. 

And then he takes the dojo over from the leader whose name is Smash, which I thought was great. And then he basically starts going about getting his revenge against the turtles, which is, he has these toughs from the gym dress up as the [00:34:00] turtles, and very obviously bad turtle costumes, and then commit robberies.

And then there's a media smear campaign where everyone is like, well, we thought we, uh, we thought that we liked the turtles. We thought they were good guys, but I, I guess they're actually criminals. It's so simple and kind of charming. I couldn't even get mad, it was ridiculous, but I, I couldn't believe what a flashback this was.

 It was nostalgia, personified, ya know.  It's very silly and very innocent and the jokes are corny and the art's pretty simple, but I really got a kick reading through it.

I haven't watched the cartoon in a couple of decades, but I immediately knew where the comic’s story was picking up.  The turtles, rely on slapstick gags rather than actual ninjitsu to defeat the criminals that they're encountering. Shredder and his crew are blundering morons, and there's this overall wholesome quality to the comic.  It's very kid-friendly, but I [00:35:00] didn't feel like I was being patronized while I read it, even though I'm almost 40 at this point. 

Jessika: Yeah. It was, like you said, it was so nostalgia, like nostalgia alley, for sure. These are the turtles and April from my childhood. You know?

Mike: Yeah, 100%.

Jessika: These are the ones, the main characters were pretty closely based on the animated series while having the rest of the miscellaneous folks being like these goofy Archie type characters.

Also, I really liked the way that they framed the TV shots to be shaped like the TVs. Like the frames of the comics were shaped, like the shape of a TV. 

Mike: Yeah, that 4:3 ratio and all that. 

Jessika: I really liked that. Yeah. With the rounded edges and everything.

Mike: Yeah, it was cute.

Jessika: You immediately understood that you were supposed to be seeing something on a screen. And it was light and it was frivolous, without the threat of any real danger.I call it a really decent kids comic. 

Mike: I've read worse.

Jessika: So volume two, moving right along, was written and illustrated by Jim Lawson and was introduced in 1993, amidst the [00:36:00] fan success of the first two Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle live action films. This was also after a falling out between Eastman and Laird caused the duo to stop working together until just recently.

Mike: Which you can actually see them come back together in the Netflix series, the Toys That Made Us. 

Jessika: Yes. Yeah. Which I'm sure is going to play a large role in my next episode of this show. With this change came another: the comic was fully colored. In this series, the turtles part ways as they have no shared purpose after the defeat of the Foot Clan, they battle and defeat Baxter Stockman, who has placed his brain in a robotic body and deal with Triceratons, which are by far my favorite villains in the turtle verse.

But despite the turtles as popularity, the series only lasted 13 issues. And a couple of years. Volume two ended with sad sales numbers, [00:37:00] and a literal flood in Mirage Studios, womp womp.

In 1996, Image Comics published Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles volume three, which was written by Gary Carlson and illustrated by Frank Foscoe. They published a total of 23 monthly issues and return the turtles back to their black and white roots, but did not include the duo-shading, which I found confusing.

Mike: Mmhm, same.

Jessika: This volume was kind of a trip. It was more intense and action packed, with even more plot twists. Also, they made the turtles much more battle-worn, with turtles missing appendages or in Donatello's case being forced to become a cyborg. And, because it was now being produced by Image, it allowed the turtles to do crossover issues with characters from the Savage Dragon series.

Mike: I had those issues. I don't think I still have them anymore, but I remember, it was a big thing where the Savage Dragon basically [00:38:00] stood up his girlfriend, because he was, involved in some shenanigans with the turtles. I think she almost broke up with him at one point, because of that, in that one is. 

Jessika: I almost said good for her, but then you said almost.

Mike: Almost.

Jessika: Now, the drama with this issue is that it's no longer considered canon in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle universe, mostly because Peter Laird hadn't been directly involved in making the storyline. So, another situation where they got a little precious about the material. 

We also read the first few issues of this comic. What are your thoughts on the comic? What I just said? Anything.

Mike: I gotta be honest if I were Peter Laird, I probably would have disowned this too. Cause it's really not that great. The art is just generally confusing because there is no sense of depth or shading.

It starts you off right in the middle of a big battle. The turtles are getting shot, Splinter is kidnapped, they’re being attacked by cyborgs for no real reason [00:39:00] that you can understand, Raphael if I remember, right, is disfigured pretty badly, there's a female ninja who shows up and she is nothing but T&A.

And, if you look at the cover for the second issue, it's very male-gazey, where you see the back of a woman and it's really just her ass and legs while the turtles are facing the camera. And it’s, everything about this feels like nineties extreme with a capital X.

in all the worst ways. And it's funny because I was wondering if Eric Larson, who did the Savage Dragon was drawing this because the art style is very reminiscent of him, and he was also doing the covers. Tom Belland, our friend, I remember him telling me a story about how, at one point he was at Image Comics, and they were criticizing his art style, and he told them that they all draw women late 12 year old boys, because they’re.

Jessika: Because they do.

Mike: They're all boobs and legs and not much else. 

Jessika: I mean, I don't see a lie.

Mike:  Yeah, [00:40:00] no lies detected my friend. It's I don't know. I, I really didn't want to read any more past the first issue either. It just, it felt very forgettable and dumb and shocking for the sake of being shocking, not for actually trying to do anything good storytelling-wise. 

Jessika: Yeah, these were just, they were like, we were talking about, they were difficult to read, they were super frenzied. I didn't know where to look. And it took me a lot longer to read them because I was trying to hash out what was happening.

Mike: It was visually confusing, which is kind of the kiss of death in a comic, like the fact that it lasted 23 issues is just mind numbing to me. 

Jessika: Yeah. you know, you look at comics a lot of the time, the ones that I really connect with are the ones where you look at it and you can see the intended motion. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I didn't get that at all here. I just felt like I was looking for the motion. It just wasn’t there.

Mike: Yeah, and even without that duo tone shading, they [00:41:00] didn't do anything, really in its place.

Jessika: Yeah, it wasn't. Wasn't great. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And you had mentioned the outfits, it just felt like it was set in a futuristic BDSM party. 

Mike: A hundred percent. I mean, the first thing that we see is, uh, what's her name? Isn't Kimiko is that her 

Jessika: Kimiko. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. And she shows up and basically, she looks like she is wearing a leather bondage version of Leelou's outfit from the Fifth Element. It is straps and spikes and it makes no sense whatsoever. 

Jessika: And like, let's be real. Her boobs are too big for that. Like there's no way that that's containing anything, logistically.

Mike: No. I mean it  her outfit is body paint, basically.

Jessika: Yeah, really is.

Mike: So Image Comics in the nineties, they were kind of leading  this artistic charge of just heinously unrealistic women. And as much as I [00:42:00] enjoyed the Savage Dragon and Eric Larson's various books, Tom, wasn't wrong, they drew women like 12 year olds did.

Jessika:  Mmhmm.

Mike: We can talk about this at some future point, but I'm sure there's an entire generation of kids who grew up reading comics in that era who developed body dysmorphia or just heinously unrealistic expectations for what people were supposed to look like in general. 

Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. Well, what do you say we, uh, move on to volume four?

Mike: Sure.

Jessika: Volume four was first published in 2001, and was created by Peter Laird and Jim Lawson. There was a couple year hiatus in 2006 when Peter Laird stopped to work on the TMNT movie. 

Aliens have landed and are taking up what they say is temporary residence on earth, which brings with it the added side-effect of normalizing weirdos on the street. So, the turtles are able to come out of hiding and enter more freely into society and other shenanigans with aliens that [00:43:00] may or may not be trustworthy, of course happen. Oh, and apparently the turtles are in their thirties. Same, bro, same. 

What say ye about the IDW comics we read?

Mike: I kind of dug them. It's one of those things where it feels like they are starting with the foundation that we all knew, and then they were growing it out in a different way. It's not bad, it felt kind of like a weird reboot, while also continuing a story that I wasn't overly familiar with.

We opened with a rumble between the turtles and a gang that was led by another mutant animal.

Jessika: It was a cat.

Mike: Yeah. Did he have a name? I can't remember. 

Jessika: It was Old Hob. 

Mike: Ah.

Jessika: He had an eye patch, Old Hob.

Mike: Yeah. And, and he's clearly got history with Splinter, and after they defeat them, it's revealed that Raphael is split from the turtles and he's out wandering around and he ends up rescuing pretty randomly, he ends up busting into Casey [00:44:00] Jones’ house to rescue a very young Casey from his abusive dad.

We get back to April's original roots of her being a scientist, where she's working for Baxter Stockman's lab. And then also we find out that Krang is around, but he's shown only in shadow. I seriously got some Dr. Claw vibes from the way that they first introduced crane where he's only shown from the back.

You only see the silhouette of his chair and then his hand on the phone. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: From the first issue on, you get the impression that they're taking familiar elements and then trying to. In a new way. And that was fine. I mean, my basic familiarity felt like the right starting point for where to go with it, but it, felt pretty cool and it felt like there was actually some pretty decent plot stuff that they were working with and they weren't trying to make it just all action.

And also, I really appreciated that the women did not look like Playboy centerfolds. 

Jessika: Yeah, that was helpful. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: It's hard to be a woman and read comics, I'm just like, [00:45:00] man, this isn't for me at all. Is it? 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Well, I'm pansexual, it’s kinda for me, but yeah, I thought the series was fun. The illustration is great as well as the coloring. And the action sequences is really fly off the page and make the reader feel like the pictures really could have been moving.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Again. Like you said, I'm loving that April gets to be a scientist again. And I like that in this one, she was the one who actually named the turtles. 

Mike: That was really cute. 

Jessika: Yeah. She was like, I'm in art history.

Mike: Yeah. Cause she was like, she was like an intern at the lab basically. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Or work study or whatever it is. Yeah.

Jessika: And I think it's really cute that their personalities were already showing when they were baby turtles. Like Raphael was already agro. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: He's the feisty one. Further into it, Raphael gets carried away after the whole, like breaking of the canister thing. And he starts getting [00:46:00] carried away by a cat.

And that's why they there's this mutant cat, but Splinter had had some psychotropics. And so he was a little bit more with it, went and fought the cat, but he got swept up into the bag with the other stuff and got carried off by the bad guys, the baddies, and Raphael was just on his own. So he didn't have the development that the other turtles did. 

Mike: That’s actually a really nice touch.

Jessika: Yeah, it was super interesting. It's also interesting to me that the mutation and the growth was a lot quicker in this series. They really didn't turn into true teenagers because they haven't been alive for that long, they’ve only been alive for like, 15 months or something. 

So finally, I just wanted to touch on the current series that is happening right now. And one that Mike mentioned in episode one, which is the Last Ronin. 

Mike: Yes. 

Jessika: Yes. And I'm very excited about this one, and it's absolutely one of the [00:47:00] items on my pull list with another one of our local shops, the Outer Planes in Santa Rosa, the first three issues are available now.

And if you have Hoopla Mike and I have had luck finding it to borrow for free, they also have a director's cut for issue one, which has some extra fun sketchies with back, everyone. So just saying that's the one I read, cause I actually own issue one, but I did borrow it on Hoopla too, to see what the little bonuses were.

Mike: Yeah. And we've mentioned this before, but Hoopla is an app that, basically they work with libraries across the country and will just let you check out digital content.  They limit it to a certain number of items per month. How many do you get.

Jessika: I think it's like six or something.

Mike: Yeah, I get eight. It's pretty low, but like insane. But in San Francisco it's like 21. 

Jessika: Ah, okay.

Mike: But it's still a really great way to scope out contents legally, you’re not pirating it, which is great. And you know, you're also, supporting the libraries because they're working with it, but it's free to you.

So, it makes me feel good whenever I can read [00:48:00] content that way. And they've got a truly amazing selection of comics and graphic novels and a huge catalog of Ninja Turtles content. 

Jessika: Yeah. For those of you who are watching Netflix’s is Sweet Tooth, that actually was a comic and that is on Hoopla as well. I checked it out and haven't started it yet. And then it checked itself back in, cause I waited too long. Whoops.

Mike: If you get around to reading it, I would love to just hear your thoughts on it because. 

Jessika: Absolutely.

Mike: I read the first volume and I thought it was very good, but I couldn't bring myself to read anymore because I don't like reading about people being mean to kids. And.

Jessika: Oh no. 

Mike: And that's very much what it is, where , it's a guy who is kind of like a young teenager and he's very trusting and people keep abusing his trust or terrorizing him.

Jessika: No.

Mike: And I'm like, I think I don't want to read that. 

Jessika: That's why I had to stop reading Lemony Snicket. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. I like read the first book and I was like, oh, sorry. This is really mean to children and I, my little empathetic heart is just crying.

Mike: Yeah. I don't like cruelty to kids., I don't like [00:49:00] cruelty to animals, and I don't like cruelty to old people.

Jessika:  Do you want to remind the listeners what the series is about and what you think so far?

Mike: Sure. This is actually the comic that I'm most familiar with since I've been reading. As I said on Hoopla as the issues have been coming out. This is being billed as the final in quotes, Ninja Turtle story, which takes place in this dystopian, cyberpunk New York. That's now controlled by the Foot Clan.

At some point in the past, the turtles were exterminated and only one of them survived. And now he's come back to town with kind of a bucket list of revenge. His identity is originally kept mystery, though it's really not that hard to figure out before the first issue reveals it on the final page. And the subsequent issues spin out both the world and the backstory. I've really been digging it so far.

I'm sure that I am missing a lot of little details, because I'm not the most diehard fan of the Ninja Turtles. But, that said, I've been having a [00:50:00] lot of fun with it and I love the new character designs, and also I'm a sucker for anything cyberpunk. 

Jessika: Yeah, I'm really, really enjoying this comic. The illustrations. Absolutely beautiful and colorful, even though it's set in dystopian society. They didn't go with the whole like grunge, everything is dark, which I really liked.

Mike: Yeah. It's really cool. 

Jessika: And I like the idea that the sole turtle is still being guided by this spirit or memory of his brothers, and that he still draws from the skills and strengths by, in a way, imagining what they would do or what advice they would give. So I thought that was really sweet and they did bring back elements of the original turtles.

Like you said, like Stockman's robot mousers that have been upgraded, the Fugitoid and professor Honeycutt. You know, it was just like they're bringing in all of these other things. 

It's yeah. It's, it's super interesting. Oh, and, did you notice, there's an Eastman and layered cameo 

Mike: What?

Jessika: In issue two.

Mike: No, I totally missed this. Where is it? [00:51:00] 

Jessika: So it's an issue two, and they're eating pizza and they're like, what was that? Could it have been…? Nah. Like when like a turtle is going by and they're like, that didn't happen. 

Mike: That’s great, I love it.

Jessika: Yeah. It was like younger Eastman and Laird, so super fun.

It's really sweet. So far. It's got a lot of depth to it. They have a lot of really meaningful conversations about mental health too, which I think is really.

Mike: Yeah. they've handled PTSD and. Trauma and everything in. I'm not sure I want to use the word realistic, but in believable ways. 

Jessika: Yeah. I would agree with that description. Yeah. 

Now onto our Brain Wrinkles. Which is that one thing comics are comics-related that is currently captured within the crevices of our cerebra. Mike, why don't you start us off?

Mike: Put me on the spot. [00:52:00] Yeah. So, there's been a bit of news the past couple of weeks about bisexuality being addressed and acknowledged in comics and comics related-media. So, last week on Loki, we had it revealed that Loki is canonically bisexual, which was, that was really nice. 

Jessika: Pew pew pew pew pew!

Mike: As someone who is bi, it's always really nice to see it acknowledged because you know, bi-erasure is a thing and it sucks. But this week, in fact, I think it was yesterday or Tuesday, Al Ewing, the writer that I talked about in, I believe the last episode or the episode before that he's the writer for We Only Find Them When They're Dead, he officially came out as being bisexual. He acknowledged that like he hasn't really been quiet about it, but he he's never exactly aade a formal statement or anything like that. And so he wrote a really, a really thoughtful blog post about all this and talking about how [00:53:00] often people that are within this group have to deal with imposter syndrome and, he put it really well where he said I've always looked at myself through a lens of self-hatred and self-loathing, and that's affected this. I wasn't enough in this category because I wasn't enough in any category. 

My not being bi enough was just one more metric that I could hate myself on. And it really resonated with me becauseI spent a long time, not really sure how to feel about my sexuality. And then the other thing is that the queer community is not always the most welcoming of us. 

Jessika: Yeah. I've had those situations as well, where, I'll be on an online dating site and I'm, I'm pansexual. I will, I will date anyone. Gender is not a thing to me. And it's not that it's not a thing, but you know what I mean? That's not a, that's not a metric by which I choose my partners.

Mike: Right. 

Jessika: But there were a lot of times where I would go onto somebody's profile.

And when it would say no bi girls or [00:54:00] no bis or something like that. And it's just like, and actually I stopped listening to a podcast cause they started talking about the idea that women get nervous, that you're just going to cheat on them with a guy. Which is like, if I'm in a relationship with you and we're in a relationship, we're in a relationship, it doesn't matter what my orientation is.

If I'm a cheater, I'm going to cheat on you, regardless of whether I'm like, you know, but I'm not, that's the thing you have to trust the person you're in a relationship with, and it doesn't have anything to do with their orientation. 

Mike: Yeah. I've dated a few people who felt they couldn't trust me because I had dated the other gender and, those relationships didn't last.

Jessika: Nope.

 Mike: But yeah, that is what has been rattling around my noggin for the past couple of days. So, what about you? 

Jessika: So, I wanted to circle back about the Corey Feldman concert I attended a few years back. And [00:55:00] as I had been previously speculating on whether it was the very same weird winged and lingerie-clad, ladies, Corey's Angels. And, friends, I am so sorry to report that I have some unfortunate news that it was in fact Corey's Angels.

I will post pics, they’re very blurry picks from this concert on Instagram. Also again, my apologies for being complicit in this bad cult situation.

Mike: You know, I will say that after our episode and I was reliving how terrible Corey Feldman was. I found myself rewatching a couple of his music videos, and there's such trash, but I am a little ashamed that I gave him the one 10th of a half penny on YouTube.

Jessika: I know. Right. And then you sent it to me. So you gave him two, technically.

Mike: I know. I I, mean, it is pretty funny though. When you read the Vice articles that make fun of his parties, [00:56:00] though. 

Jessika: Well, folks, that's it for this episode, be sure to join us again in two weeks for another riveting comic adventure.

Mike: Thanks For listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Jessika Frazer and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who is on Instagram as @lookmomdraws.

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com, [00:57:00] or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast is tencenttakes, Jessika is Jessikawitha, and Jessika has a K, not a C, and I am vansau, V A N S A U.

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to subscribe, download, rate, and review wherever you listen.

Mike: Stay safe out there. 

Jessika: And support your local comic shop. 

It's time to dive into the depths of comic book history as we check out Jessika's recent finds from a shop in Massachusetts. This week we're checking out Saga of the Sub-Mariner, the 1988 series that re-introduced Marvel audiences to the long, long, looooooong history of Marvel's First Mutant. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

In honor of Star Trek Day 2022, we're taking a look at the Star Trek/X-Men crossovers of the 1990s. 

BUT! Because we're discussing two socially progressive properties crossing over, we've invited the amazing hosts from the SJW Comic Book Club onto our show! So sit back, relax, and make it so. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Special thanks to Veronica, Melissa, and Monte from SJW Comic Book Club for joining us on this episode! You can find them on every podcast platform, or head over to https://sjwcomicspodcast.buzzsprout.com/ and check out all their episodes. 

Twitter: @sjwcomicscast Instagram: @sjwcomicscast

Ten Cent Takes contact info:

It's that time of year! Time for friends, time for joy, and time for weird comics! This year, we're checking out the Superstar Holiday Special which is one of the wildest anthology issues we've ever come across. 

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Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

What's your pleasure, sir?

Today we're talking about Clive Barker's Hellraiser, the first comic to... embrace... the iconic horror franchise. We were incredibly lucky to talk about this Epic Comics series with none other than D.G. Chichester, who Clive Barker described as the "Godfather" of Hellraiser and served as both an editor and writer on the book!----more----

Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Special thanks to DG Chichester for joining us on this episode! You can connect with him at https://storymaze.substack.com/ and can find him on Twitter: @dgchichester. 

Ten Cent Takes contact info:

Make a history check, players! Today we're kicking off a three-part look at the early history of Dungeons and Dragons in comic books. This episode we're talking about The Realm, a 1980s fantasy series from Arrow Comics that managed to deliver a DND-esque story about before the official brand hit comic shops. Joining us is Kelly Galten of the award-winning game shop Goblin Bros.

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Sources cited: 

• William Blanc, “Fantasy Invades Comics," The National Library of France: https://fantasy.bnf.fr/en/understand/fantasy-invades-comics/ 
• Mark Thompson's summary of the black-and-white comic implosion: https://www.prismnet.com/~patman/posts/thompson.txt
• Tim Dzon's Hero Initiative profile: https://www.heroinitiative.org/29447-2/

Picking up where we last left off, it's time to learn about Marvel's second attempt at comics for Christian audiences. Highlights include comic adaptations of "classic" Christian stories and the creation of an evangelical superhero, but the results were decidedly less impressive than the "Saint Series" from the early 80s. 

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Episode 8 Transcription

[00:00:00] Jessika: Good, I can see, perfect. No sneaking up on me, Jesus. 

Mike: Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we partake in comics’ forbidden fruit, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson and I'm joined by my cohost, the muffin of mayhem herself, Jessika Frazer.

Jessika: Hello. 

Mike: How's it going?

Jessika: Oh, pretty good. Even better, now that you're calling me a muffin. I love it.

Mike: I mean, it was either that or the scone of scorn and I liked muffin of mayhem better.

Jessika: Oh, either way. I mean, it's very close. I do have a cupcake on my shoulder as you know.

Mike: Yes.  [00:01:00] Well, as always, the purpose of this podcast is to perform deep dives on comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're picking up where we left off with our last episode and concluding our look at Marvel's short-lived run of Christian comics.

Are you ready?

Jessika: Yeehaw. 

Mike: Well, I'm going to give you a quick break before we actually get into that. What is one cool thing that you have read or watched since we last recorded?

Jessika: I started reading the Princeless series by Jeremy Whitley. 

Mike: Nice.

Jessika: Yeah. The art for the first book was by M Goodwin, but there are other artists involved, including Emily Martin, who is local to our area, which is super neat.

Mike: Yeah. I met her at Luma [00:02:00] Con a couple of years ago. 

Jessika: Oh, that's rad as heck. Nice, nice. 

So, the story follows a princess, Adrienne, who from a young age, is not at all on board with the conventional helpless role she's expected to take as a princess, and is not happy about being locked in a tower alone. So she decides that she doesn't need to continue this path that has been chosen for her and escapes to help others.

She's also a person of color and her hair care routines and style reflect that, which is wonderful. And I'm only one issue into the first book, but I'm so excited to see what destiny Adrienne writes for herself. 

Mike: I think I read the first volume a couple of years ago and I really enjoyed it. It was a really fresh feeling story.

Jessika: That's how I felt about it, it was very refreshing. 

Well, what about [00:03:00] you? Whatcha been reading? 

Mike: So, one of the series that I have on my pull list at Brian's comics up in Petaluma is We Only Find Them When They're Dead from Boom. It’s about six issues. And now it's this really cool sci-fi fantasy sort of series by Al Ewing who has really gotten big while he's been writing the Immortal Hulk, which I also highly recommend because that takes the incredible Hulk storyline and turns it into pretty much a horror story.

Jessika: Oh, cool. 

Mike: It's really neat. And it's really unnerving and, he’s been writing it for over 30 issues now, I think, but it's really solid. And the whole idea is that the Hulk is effectively an immortal being and he can't die. But how that comes into play is genuinely terrifying at times.

But Al Ewing did this new series called We Only Find Them When They're Dead. The series is just incredible. And it's set in this weird dystopian future where [00:04:00] the bodies of these giant space gods, for lack of a better term appear out of nowhere. And then humanity is so stretched thin for resources that, that what they've started doing is they have these spaceships that will harvest the bodies for parts.

And nobody knows where these gods come from until the crew of one of these harvesting ships decides to solve the mystery. It's this really tight kind of small scale story so far, but it's set against this really insane, massive cosmic backdrop. And it's also very queer, so, I think you would probably enjoy it more so than usual.

Jessika: Very nice. Very nice. 

Mike: All right. Let's turn back to Marvel's Christian Comics. Would you be so kind as to give us a quick recap of where we left off after the last episode?

Jessika: Sure. Last week we went [00:05:00] through the first years of the Marvel Catholic comics, how it got its start printing religious material, cue the power of asking that we keep discussing on this show, and who was involved in making these particular Comics. Our focal comics were the Saint series, comprised of the stories of St. Francis in Francis Brother of the Universe, Pope John Paul. I can’t not do it that way. 

Mike: It's so good.

Jessika: Pope John Paul II, and Mother Teresa. Oh man. Do we want to take a quick second and talk about the recent news? It was so timely about Mother Teresa. You wanna? You want to talk a little bit about that, Mike? 

 I just had to talk about it. It was so freaking timely. 

Mike: Oh, absolutely.  I think this happened a day or two after we recorded the article.  So over the past couple of days there's been a number of stories that have come out, basically highlighting that [00:06:00] Mother Teresa was running a cult and I think the headline that I sent you was, “Are there still people who didn't know Mother Teresa was running an alleged cult?” And. 

Jessika: Cue. 

Mike: I think. 

Jessika: Cue me raising my hand. 

Mike: Yeah, I think this was a day or two after, after you and I had recorded and it just felt ridiculously timely.

It was really funny.

Jessika: Oh, serendipitous. 

Mike: No,  she was not a good person by the increasingly numerous accounts that I've been seeing.  She was quote unquote good by a very narrow definition that unfortunately it was kind of like what the media presented her as back then in the eighties. And since then, I mean, if she was operating today, there's no way that she would have received the Nobel Peace Prize.

But.

Jessika: Oh, no, absolutely not. 

Mike: But you know, we're talking, she received that 40 years [00:07:00] ago, so.

Jessika: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Well, back to what we were talking about last week. After the St. series, after all of that wrapped up, Marvel seemed to decide to walk away from religious content after these winning Comics, we did however, land on a bit of a cliffhanger because Mike, you teased that they took another swing at religious comics in 1992. 

Mike: That is correct. So, to set the stage, the late eighties and early nineties were a massive boom for the comic book market.  There was this huge speculation bubble that was going on, and as a result, Marvel and DC and other imprints were just seeing an unprecedented amount of success.  On average, a lot of major books were seeing over a million issues in circulation, which, even today, they don't see. 

I think in 1991, X-Men number one, the new series that was [00:08:00] drawn by Jim Lee and written by Chris Claremont had something like 12 million issues move for the. 

Jessika: Oh.

Mike: For - yeah. It's bonkers. And then shortly thereafter, the rug basically got pulled out from under Marvel's feet.

So the early nineties really went from being awesome to really rough in almost no time flat. And that was because the company's top artists were freelancers and they weren't happy with Marvel's compensation plan. So they left and they founded Image Comics back in early ’92. And that was essentially the top artists from really well-performing comics, like X-Men, Spiderman, Guardians of the Galaxy, and X-Force just to name a few, became Marvel's competition overnight. 

And DC was having some major commercial successes at the same time with events like the death of Superman, and Batman Knightfall, which is when he got his back broken. [00:09:00] So Marvel was suddenly scrambling to keep their share of the market in that light Christian book, publisher, Thomas Nelson, reaching out to former commercial partnership must have seemed like a, uh, well, for lack of a better term, a godsend.

And up until that point, Evangelical Christian audiences were a largely untapped demographic outside of their specialty markets.  Now that said, I haven't been able to find any old press releases from when this deal was announced.

It honestly seems like both. Marvel and Thomas Nelson, would just like to have everyone forget about this whole venture since neither company mentions the partnerships on their sites. I can't even find them on archive or anything like that. 

Jessika: Oh, wow.

Mike: That said - Yeah. It's, it's like buried pretty deep, but that said, I did find an article from Christianity Today, of all places, that fills in some of the details.

So, it's kind of a long-winded meandering puff [00:10:00] piece, but there are a couple of relevant details. Would you do me a favor and read the first bit explaining why this deal came to be?

Jessika: Sure. Some Thomas Nelson staff, whose young children were drawn to comics noticed there was little available from a Christian viewpoint. Realizing they did not have the resources in house, the publisher struck a deal with Marvel comics to produce a series of comics under Nelson's editorial direction. Using Marvel artists and writers that resulting comics would be marketed in Christian markets by Thomas Nelson and in comic bookstores by Marvel. 

Mike: Yeah, so, honestly, it sounds more like Thomas Nelson hired Marvel rather than the two were in a legit partnership.  Thomas Nelson was even setting the price point for the books, which wasn't cheap. For reference the average Marvel comic cost $1.25 in 1993. 

The least expensive [00:11:00] Nelson comic, for its single issue Life Christ books, that we'll talk about a little bit, and each of those was going for $2.99, a pop. So that's almost $6 in today's money. Illuminator, which we're really going to talk about for a bit, was going for $4.99 a book, which means Thomas Nelson was expecting kids to shell out the equivalent of $10 bucks per issue for a comic with like zero name recognition.

Jessika: Right. 

Mike: Yeah, and that's actually called out in the same article. Like Christianity today couldn't even give them a complete puff piece, they actually called out how maybe Thomas Nelson was a little bit high on their own fumes. If you'd be so kind to read that section as well.

Jessika: The primary difficulty in selling the Illuminator to the secular comic book market is not the subject matter, but the price. As a book publisher, Thomas Nelson wants the comics to look as high quality and [00:12:00] book-like as possible. They have more pages than standard comics, carrying no advertising, and are printed using higher quality paper and ink than standard comics. Thomas Nelson likes to call them illustrated novels, a variation of the comic industry term graphic novel. Because of this, the 48-page Illuminator sells for $4.99. As one comic store owner put it, “that’s a pretty stiff price for a comic with no well-known characters, artists or writers”. Yikes. 

Mike: When you can't even get to pull its punches for an article like this, that kinda says a lot. I feel, yeah, so I don't know what kind of marketing was done, but I haven't been able to find any ads for the Nelson comics in any of my Marvel issues from 1992 to 94, nor have I been able to track down [00:13:00] anything on the web.

I mean, absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence, but it certainly seems like the partnership got rolling and then nobody really wanted to draw the attention to the end results. Which, based on what we've seen of  the end result of the product, uh, maybe, maybe that's kind of understandable.

Jessika: Big sigh. 

Mike: Yeah, that said, I do have the Illuminator comics in my collection and they are definitely higher quality in terms of production. Like, you know, the colors still pop they're definitely thicker. But, if I had seen this in the comic store, I would have blown right past it when I was kid. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: So speaking of Illuminator, do you want to give us an elevator pitch for that comic?

Jessika: Oh my, well, if you insist. I mean, other than calling it a hot mess?

Mike: Other than calling it a hot mess.

Jessika: Okay. So this high school-aged [00:14:00] kid named Andy Prentiss goes to summer camp, is bullied a lot, and gets tricked into going into the forest in the middle of the night where he is abducted?

Mike: It's pretty vague.

Jessika: By a beam of light? Yeah. 

Mike: It's super vague. Like, they don't ever actually, we'll get into that. Okay. 

Jessika: It's very strange. And he, he somehow becomes the light? And has powers for no explicable reason? I know there are a lot of question marks behind my, my sentences, because that's how it feels. He gets semi-brainwashed by a local reverend and convinced that his powers are from God himself. 

Mike: Was he actually a reverend was, I thought that dude was just like a…

Jessika: I don’t know.  Or maybe he was just a janitor. I don’t know what he was.

Mike: It's never really explained. Like.

Jessika: I'm giving him a lot of credit. 

Mike: Yeah.  Sorry. I derailed it.

Jessika: That's okay. Well, he [00:15:00] convinced him that his power, whoever this dude was who worked at this church. He was always sweeping, he was probably a janitor you're right. 

Convince him that his powers are from God himself and that he is acting because God directed him to. But like slippery slope my dude. Thus, the Illuminator was created after that all of the villains are supposed to represent really obvious, evil being demon-like creatures, trying, and being mostly successful at tempting the public into acting sinfully. 

There isn't a great explanation as to why any of this happened, like we said, or is being aimed at Prentiss himself, who didn't seem to be very religious in the first place when this thing started?

Mike: No, he was just kind of like an earnest, sort of naive teenager.

Jessika: Yeah. But I’ll tell you what there is, there is a healthy amount of [00:16:00] slut-shaming. 

So that's certainly exciting for me because, you know, I hate that bullshit. So. 

Mike: Yeah. It's definitely uncomfortable to read.  Also, I wanna note that his superhero design for the Illuminator persona feels like a rip off of Long Shot, who was this popular character in the eighties who palled around with the X-Men for awhile. Like, here's what he looked like. Take a look, tell me what you think.

Jessika: Oh, he even has the little star. Okay. This does look really similar to the other comic we read. He's wearing like a black kind of jumpsuit, but it could, it really could be a motorcycle jacket and pants. He's got boots on. He has a little bullet necklace or a bullet sash?

Mike: I believe the term is a bandolier.

Jessika: A bandolier, thank you. He has a bandolier, I'm cutting all of that bullshit out. He has a bandolier [00:17:00] and he's throwing, like, I don't know, a little, are those knives?

Mike: Knives. 

Jessika: Oh, okay.

Mike: He, like that's Long Shot’s thing, is that his power is he's super lucky. He has slightly enhanced strength and hollow bones, which makes him a better acrobat. 

Jessika: Got it.

Mike: And then his weapon of choice is he throws knives that basically he just can hit anything with.

Jessika: The problem is they kind of look like sharp popsicles. 

Mike: Kind of yeah. 

Jessika: So. 

Mike: But yeah, I mean like Long Shot is one of my favorite characters. 

Jessika: Nice.

Mike: And I was reading this book again and I was just going, oh my God, they added a helmet and then kind of removed the bandolier and added some extra padding and called it a day.

He's even got the mullet.  It's just a different color.  Andy's a dirty blonde and.

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: And Long Shot is platinum. 

Jessika: It's like three shades off, real close. 

Mike: So you gave a pretty solid summary of the comic itself. I gotta say [00:18:00] the comic series felt very unfocused.  It doesn't feel like it really conveys much of a Christian message.   Andy's powers are so vaguely delivered, as you called out, and there's no real specific link to Jesus or Christianity at that point. 

He only becomes the Christian super hero when he retreats into a church to escape, apparently a demonic opponent? Bu, the only reason that we know that he's demonic is because he doesn't want to go in the church.  And then he gets a pep talk from this one-armed wise man who lives there, apparently.

I feel like he still approached things in a very standard superhero way: punch first ask questions later.  Did you notice that there was no trying to solve problems in a way that would result in anything other than a fist fight with powers?

Jessika: Oh, no, it was just like, oh, there's a problem, I need to go beat someone up. That was absolutely the vibe. 

Mike: Yeah, I was genuinely surprised by that. I would have expected a little [00:19:00] more Jesus-inspired approaches such as turning the other cheek, or lifting people up who are suffering, things like that. But no, it was just a superhero fights with people or things that were designated as evil from an evangelical point of view.

And I mean, we should talk about that. Like, each of the comics comes across a super victim-blamey.  Like, there's that party where Nightfire, the first demonic entity, shows up and starts draining victims, and it shows they're all drinking or doing drugs or being slutty.

Jessika: Yeah. They're at a party and there are girls on guys' laps and apparently, that's not good.

Mike: Apparently, but then they all become Nightfire’s sort of undead army. So it's that implication that sinful behavior leads to damnation later on. Um.

Jessika: Okay. 

Mike: And then [00:20:00] in the second issue, the story paints college campuses out as godless places, full of temptation and being devoid of morality. So, they're susceptible to this mad scientist, who's splicing together weird animal human hybrids, which, I mean, that felt like something that was written by someone who has never actually been on a college campus.

Jessika: Yes. 

 Mike: And then the third issue was absolutely trying to link Satanism and Wiccan beliefs.  I'm not crazy, right? Like that actually, that’s how it felt. Like, Satanism and crystals, that  they're just hand in hand.

Jessika:  Yeah, it was super gross.

Mike: Yeah, it was really bad.  I mean, the book only had three issues or illustrated novels or whatever they want to call it before it was canceled. So, I personally think that the probable lack of marketing that we discussed really hurt it, but it also seems like there were some production problems that caused it to be [00:21:00] delayed because the third volume has a cover date of August, 1993, but it turns out it didn't actually hit the shelves until February of 1994.

I could not find sales figures for the months that the first two volumes came out, but the third issue doesn't even crack the top 100 issues being sold in the market when it actually hit the shelves.

You brought up the slut-shamey aspect to it. And in the end of the third issue, it really felt uncomfortable where Andy was, these days it would be incel kind of logic, where he's really mad that the girl he saved didn't go to him.

Jessika: That is so how it felt. I was just like pointing at you viciously right now, like, really aggressively.

Mike: Yeah. When you were doing that, I was like, what did I do wrong?

Jessika: Ya know that's exactly how it felt. It felt like he's like, well, I saved her and I'm the better guy. So she should just be with me. 

Mike: Yeah. And then.

Jessika: He just expected it. It was gross. 

Mike: And then they kind of have a teaching moment where they're like, well, you know, that's not always how it works, [00:22:00] blah, blah, blah. And then she shows up to be another disciple of Christ or whatever, and blah.

Jessika: Yeah. She’s like, I broke up with that other guy. 

Mike: Oh yeah. That.

Jessika: She’s wearing a knee length skirt and like.

Mike: Yeah. And before that she'd been wearing kind of form-fitting jeans and tank tops and. Well, the other guy, I can't even remember his name, but he was at the party. That's the only time we saw him. And he was basically trying to make it okay that everyone was drinking. So, you know.

Jessika: Yeah. And then he was in the mall scene and he was like, trying to convince her like something stupid, something else stupid. 

Mike: Yeah. That was after they got returned to their bodies. That's right. I, I actually thought that she was the mom of one of the other characters originally because she had such a mom haircut and it was like, oh, it's kind of the sexy mom. And then oops. It was, the ages of those characters was very [00:23:00] ill-defined.

Jessika: Agreed. 

Mike: And then, like I said, like this was clearly written by someone who had not experienced really anything of the real world, it felt. Nightfire is a drug dealer who just hangs out outside of high schools and tries to randomly sell drugs to kids? Like, my dude. Do you not understand how drug dealing works?

Jessika: That's not how that works. Yeah. Your kids don't have enough money for drug dealers to be interested in them.  And they're definitely not giving your kids free drugs. Like I know I say that a lot, but it's because I believe it a lot. They're not just going to get rid of their revenue.

Mike:  It was the same thing with that college campus, with the mad scientist professor who was, he was in a wheelchair for no really defined reason, he just was. And then apparently he's just creating an army of [00:24:00] man-animal hybrids. Which, again, I was sitting there and I'm like, man, I took biology classes in college and they were never this cool, like, are you creating an army of mutant supermen at your college?

Yeah, sign me up. I'll pay that tuition. I'll take out a loan.

Jessika: Well, and it was happening in this way that wasn't really logical, to where they were kind of meshing into this larger, like alligator with massive arms and walks around like a human, but then I don't know. It was strange. He was making them come apart with his, God-light. Like they could become two separate things.

Again, it wasn't like he was chopping things up and sticking them back together or making a new creature. I don't really understand how this was supposed to be happening, from a scientific aspect. 

Mike: His powers were really, ill-defined like he, he could fly and he could shoot light. And then I guess, theoretically add super strength, but. Yeah, that whole, like God-light separating the things out, but then it turned out it killed them because they'd been bonded too long to get, I don't know, whatever [00:25:00] it was, it was fucking dumb.

Yeah. So that was the thing was Trisha goes to a crystal store where it's apparently a front for a demon cult.

And again, I'm like, I don't know, man,  if I went to a crystal store and they told me that I could traffic with demons, I'd be much more likely to buy one of their ridiculously expensive geodes. Because I've been taken on a date to a crystal shop, because I was sick and my date wanted to buy me a healing crystal and I was.

Oh, God,

Jessika: That’s, that is very sweet. 

Mike: I did not respond well to this. 

Jessika: I'm sure you did not. 

Mike: Which. I'm sure does not surprise you, but.

Jessika: No.

Mike: I'm just saying if he’d instead offered to induct me into a cult where they hung out with demons, I might've actually gone out for a second date with him. Hmm. [00:26:00]

 Do you have any more thoughts on Illuminator before we move on to our next entry?

Jessika: I mean, I didn't care for this comic. Other than the first one that was establishing his origin story, it felt like the same story in each of the three issues. It was some demon character sucking the life out of people that were making bad choices. It was literally the same story each time, not even well masked.

Mike: Yeah, exactly.

Jessika: And, it was hard to follow and it was hard to figure out the incredibly vague, read not there, ties to Christianity that this character and his actions and powers were supposed to have, like we were talking about. It felt like a stretch at best. 

Mike: Yeah. They were just trying to shoehorn it in at the end where he would go talk to, the guy's name was George, I think, where he would go and talk to his mentor at the church.  It felt like a very kind of vague, well, if you look at it this way, this could be your lesson from Jesus.

[00:27:00] Jessika: Yeah, exactly.  And you were bringing up another point that I also didn't like, they were just making fun of other religions, for example, naming someone Chakra, and mocking other spiritual practices with crystals, it was really disrespectful and in poor taste. 

Mike: Which, I mean, I can't say I'm really surprised given how evangelical culture typically goes these days. 

Jessika:  Christianity, isn't the only religion and I'm tired of mainstream society being okay with Jesus-washing everything, and then being offended when any other religion is given any space. 

It's deplorable. 

Mike: Yeah. And then also, these stories just felt very lazy and dumb. The big one that I keep on thinking about is, again, that second issue where he's at a college campus and there's the mad scientist and it's revealed the mad scientist kidnapped a football player, like the star football player from the university's team, and then [00:28:00] turned him into, I think, the alligator hybrid that we were talking about. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I was sitting there going my dude.

You're mad that they pulled your funding. What do you think they're going to do to you when you remove their giant cash cow of college football from the campus?

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. And like, do you not know the cardinal rule of  picking people who don't have people looking for them?

Mike: Right?

Jessika: But, like, I'm not planning on doing anything bad and even I know that. Yeah. So, yeah. And other than just the audacity that Andy has making assumptions that he and Trisha are gonna get together based on the fact that he saves her from what he perceives as a bad situation. 

Mike: He's a nice guy. He is that proverbial nice guy trope.

Jessika: Hint to everyone out there: Don't you ever slide into my DMS and say you're a nice guy, because you will be [00:29:00] blocked so quickly. 

Mike: On that note, what do you say? We move on to the next books in our discussion. 

Jessika: Let's mosey. 

Mike: So, I mentioned the Life of Christ comics that were single issues. These are the two issues that were put out to retail; the Christmas and Easter stories. They were both written by Louise Simonson and illustrated by Mary Wilshire, as well as Eisner award winner Coleen Doran, she apparently helped with the Easter issue.

Simonson is a major name in comics alongside her husband, Walt. She co-created the character, Cable, from the X-Men; she helped launch the long running series, Superman, the Man of Steel; and she was one of the major stakeholders in the death of Superman storyline. And she also helped out, if I remember right, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that she was a major [00:30:00] part of Walt Simonson’s really acclaimed run on Thor, to the point where both of them appear in cameos in the original Thor movie.

Like I think, I  think they're both featured at the end when they're celebrating at the hall of heroes, or whatever it is. But  it was a nice little nod because they created a lot of stuff like Thor: Frog of Thunder, and, Beta Ray bill, if I remember right.   

Likewise, Mary Wilshire did a ton of stuff for Marvel in the eighties and nineties. She was best known for her work on Red Sonja and Firestar. And then Colleen Doran, goddamn, she's this incredible illustrator who's worked on a ton of properties. I always associate her with Neil Gaiman’s Sandman. So. 

Jessika: I just started reading that. 

Mike: Yeah, like all three of these women are Legit Big Deals, like capital letters at the start of each of those words.

 And that's why it's so weird to see their names in these issues. I can't believe how bland and [00:31:00] boring everything about them felt. Like, is that mean? Am I going out of line? 

Jessika: No. No. I'm surprised to hear about the acclaim that these illustrators have, because it felt very elementary. Am I supposed to have received this as a coloring book? 

Mike: Yeah, it's really flat, like, okay. So for comparison, here is a painting that Colleen Duran did for Sandman. Check it out.

 Jessika:  Oh, wow. This is cool. 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: Wow. Okay. There's a lot going on. So I'll just describe this really quick.  There's a ton going on. So at the very top, there's a Swan couple swans, a swan and a, some sort of a harp, maybe a harpsichord thing. And you've got some planets and moons and a dude gargling some blood, it looks like.

Mike: I [00:32:00] think that's supposed to be Orpheus. Cause he, if I remember right, he was Dream’s son and then Orpheus is eventually ripped apart by the Bach the Bachinal. I dunno, whatever there.

Jessika:  And then there is a legit goth lady who has this amazing, I'm not too far into it, obviously, as you can tell. 

Mike: Right. So  that is death. That is Dreams sister. I mean, 

Jessika: That's great. 

Mike: Yeah. If, if you're not too familiar with it, I don't want to spoil all the elements for this, but this painting features a ton of major characters from throughout the Sandman series, which she provided a lot of illustration for.

And it's a beautiful piece of work.

Jessika: It's a feast for the eyes, honestly. I mean, there's so many different elements, I mean, part of it looks like it's supposed to look like stained glass and other parts of it, don't look that same way. It's very interesting. 

Mike:  Yeah. So it's very [00:33:00] much not what we got. Likewise, I want you to look at some of Mary Wiltshire's art, here.

Jessika: Oh, wow. See, that's fun. 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: Red Sonia. See, I want to read some Red Sonia. 

Mike: Yeah. The 80’s series is fun. I think Marvel might have the rights back, because it's part of the Conan properties. Oh no, wait, I think Dynamite has Red Sonia. I don't know. You can probably find some books on Hoopla if nothing else.

Jessika: This is great. I mean, the color vibe is great. There's all this shading, which there really wasn't in that other one at all.

Mike: Yeah, I noticed that, too.

It was just flat color, other than they used some crosshatching within the illustration, but  that was kind of all they did, except for Jesus's hair. That was such a, like, it was a choice, I guess, they just, the only thing that had any sort of shading was, like, Jesus's hair looked like it was a tie dye masterpiece, so, [00:34:00] oh, wow. 

Mike: Both of these books feel very, for lack of a better term, very paint by numbers.

Jessika: Yes, very much. So. 

Mike: I mean, we've all heard these stories before, too. There wasn't really anything new. The most exciting artwork for both of these books was on the cover. And, the one weird thing that really stood out to me, was that the Easter book felt kind of anti-Semitic, I don't know if I was just reading a little too much into that.

Jessika: No, you you're. I've I read that too. Yes.

Mike: I feel like  there was an abnormal focus on making Pontius Pilate into not being the bad guy. And instead of keeping the blame on the Jewish elders, it felt very weird and very gross. 

Jessika: It did.

Mike: And it's, I know that is an argument that is somewhat popular with certain extreme right-wing sectors of evangelical Christianity, too, is that the Jews killed Jesus, [00:35:00] which, I don't know how to respond to that. Like it, it just, just.

Jessika: It felt very much like they were saying, yes, we know the Romans did it, but it's your fault, Jews. And it's like, what? No, no, no, no.

Mike: Yeah. It was very uncomfortable to read.

Jessika: Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent. 

The other thing that bothered me from the birth issue was the angels. Like, I've read what angels are supposed to look like. If it's not some beautiful human woman with wings floating down gracefully from the clouds. It is a terrifying multi-eyed creature that shows up in some really jarring way.

The whole situation seemed way too peaceful for what I've read from the actual Bible. Like, I have read the Bible in its entirety.  I was bored at [00:36:00] 13,  don't ask, but yeah.

So, but that's not the vibe. Like, people are always really terrified when angels come down and there is a reason. 

Mike: Yeah. And that's something that I remember is that when I was growing up, you know, I was presented with the very, kind of Renaissance style angels. And so I never understood when I was reading as a kid or having the stories read to me, why are people scared of the angels? Because you know, they're just glowing people with wings.

And then later on it was, oh, oh, they're fucking monsters. They are, they are straight out of HP Lovecraft. Okay. I get it now.

Jessika: Yeah. Because technically the humans are supposed to be the ones that are like, what? In God's image. There's nothing about angels being so.

Mike: Nope. We're the, we're the mud people.  

Jessika: Yes.

Mike: Well, moving on from that, aside from those aforementioned single issues, Nelson Comics published, [00:37:00] what was dubbed the Christian Classic Series, which are comic adaptations of kind of big name Christian literature.  I was able to track down digital copies of the Pilgrim's Progress and In His Steps; What Would Jesus Do?

Let's talk about that one first. I had actually heard of iIn His Steps before this, because it took that titular phrase and it kind of brought it into the popular culture. It was originally written in the late 19th century. It's basically about a reverend who is moved to challenge his congregation to use the question when making life decisions.

It's a dry book and the comic was super dry as well. It just, it felt like a lot of expository dialogue set in late 19th century settings with a bunch of very prim and proper white people who, for the most part feel pretty monied and pretty privileged.  

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: There's occasionally some sort of [00:38:00] over-the-top situations where our Christian heroes are facing persecution, but it's like, it's made up persecution.

It's that idea where Christians are like, we're the victims, people don't like us. And I think maybe because you're assholes, I don't know how to respond to that otherwise.

Jessika: Yeah. Maybe it's not about your religion. Maybe it's just you.

Mike: Yeah. If everyone's telling you you're an asshole, maybe it's not anything else, maybe it's just you. I agree. But yeah, it's just, it's a boring slog and it took me way longer than it should've to get through this.

Jessika: They were awful. I'm not gonna lie. I read them, but I skimmed them because I couldn't sit there and like, let that infest my brain. 

Mike: No. There’s also a sequel novel that they didn't adapt. 

Jessika: No.

Mike: But basically, I think if I remember right, the sequel novel has Jesus actually showing up, like, it's like the second coming of Jesus. If I remember right. I 

Jessika: Man, they already got so close to that in this one, because they had that one [00:39:00] dude show up who is a scraggly stranger. 

And then the reverend has a dream that Jesus is actually lying in the bed and he's like, oh my God, it was Jesus all along. 

Mike: Yeah. Oh God, that was.

Jessika: So heavy handed. Smacked me across the face with that message. Jeez. 

Mike: Oh, and what is it? The tramp has a daughter who the reverend and his wife take in to raise as their own.

Jessika: Oh yeah. 

Mike: On what planet…?

Jessika: Because apparently.

Mike: Ugh.

Jessika: No, it's awful. No, we all know that Christians don't care about the children once they're born.

Mike: We, there are so many signs around my town, at least in our area because we live right near a Catholic church where it's the pregnancy crisis centers. And I keep on, resisting the urge to go spray, paint them or something, they're so gross.

Jessika: Oh, we have the ones up that have a picture of a baby that say my eyes are formed after blah, [00:40:00] blah, blah days or whatever. 

Mike: Gross.

Jessika: Yeah, I know they're awful. And every once in a while they do get spray painted. 

Mike: Good.

Jessika: Obviously I have nothing to do with that, but I walk past and I go, okay. Yep. Yep. Yeah. 

Mike: Side tangent, completely unrelated to comics, but there was a Reddit post within the last year, I think, from some guy who was really upset about how his girlfriend would go and deface, the local pro-life billboards that would go up near their house. She would add things like citation needed for some of the claims, or just cross them out, or whatever.

And he was saying, would I be justified in breaking up with her? Because I feel like, she's putting herself at legal risk doing all this. And literally every response was yo dude, you should break up with her and then give her my number because she sounds fucking rad.

Jessika: Seriously. Oh my gosh. That's great.

Mike: Anyway.

Jessika: Hero of heroes. 

Mike: Yeah, the hero we need. [00:41:00]

So, turning to the Pilgrim's Progress. This is a Christian allegory novel from the 1600’s that's extremely surreal. I'd actually never heard of this book before now, and I had to do some basic research just to see how close they mirrored the plot. And I'm really bummed that actually, the comic is a pretty faithful adaptation of the source material. Which means there is a giant prose novel that is just this dumb and insane, but without at least the somewhat arresting visuals that we got.

Jessika: It's basically Pinocchio. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's not far off, except there's a second act where the dude’s sinful family follows him, which.

Jessika: Oh my God. They just kind of get abducted into the nether though. They don't do anything.  [00:42:00] He's the one that does everything and then they're suddenly just there. 

Mike:  Before we get into this discussion. It's about a protagonist named Christian, on his pilgrimage across this metaphorical landscape, where he confronts temptation and he learns, I don't know, moral lessons, I guess. I wasn't entirely certain about a lot of those, but whatever.  And then after he makes it to heaven, his wife and kids follow him, because he couldn't convince them to come with him originally. This was written in the late 1600’s, originally it is updated and adapted to what's supposed to be modern day, New York.

And there's a lot of like really thinly veiled criticism being leveled at environmentalists for some reason, which I did not understand.

 Jessika: It was really strange. I don't know where that came from. I read that, too. 

Mike: Yeah. And then in the novel, after he makes it to heaven, confronting all these challenges, [00:43:00] his wife and his kids follow him. And then they have a sort of angelic guardian, who helps protect them along the way, who she shows up in the comic book, it's whatever, the kids, and this was actually kind of a weird diversion from the novel in the novel.

The kids become adults throughout the journey, cause it's a long journey and they get married and they have families of their own. And so at the very end, they don't go with the wife, but they stay behind. And, basically they're living Christian lifestyles. And in the comic book for some reason, and it's not really explained well, they're left behind with their aunt who was also on the journey with them.  And then the mom was just like, okay, bye. I'm going to go off to heaven now with your dad.

Jessika: Yeah, he just like sticky handed her up there or something, like you earn the right to  snatch your wife from earth. Maybe that was the rapture.

Mike: Yeah, maybe. Well, and then at the very end, his friend, who was like, oh no,  [00:44:00] you know, we're, we're doing our part. We're recycling and taking care of the planet. He's denied access to heaven by St. Peter for some reason, that's not really explained.

Jessika: Which was so strange. Like, yeah, please, don’t recycle friends. What, what a strange takeaway from this whole thing.

Mike: It just, it feels kind of like this religious acid trip with occasional detours into misogyny and racism. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Jessika: Not at all. Very, very same page as you. 

Mike: The one piece of praise that I can offer these books is that they definitely have the best art of the Nelson comics line.

Jessika: It was decent. Yeah. 

 So I found for both of these comics, both In His Steps and the Pilgrim's Progress, unsurprisingly, they keep replaying the same messages that have been consistent with these comics: be faithful against these huge temptations that are supposed to bombard you every day.

 I would expect there to be women and men of loose morals [00:45:00] falling at my feet to tempt me constantly is all I'm saying, like, let's make it happen. Disappointment. 

Mike: I’m, I always see these things talking about like women have loose morals or, or ill-repute,  I clearly was not hanging out in the right neighborhoods.

Jessika: That’s what I'm saying. 

Mike: Yeah. Bums me out, man.

Jessika: There's always some messages about staying on the path of God, which is always very vague and sometimes literally a path, which come on. And Beelzebub constantly shows up, because the only real villains are the devil and your inability to resist temptation, apparently. Once again, though, didn't see any queer people, which is fine because the Bible really doesn't say anything about them anyway. And I guess God didn't really start hating us in mainstream media until later on then. Huh? 

Mike: Man, I don't know. I mean, [00:46:00] like, there's that whole thing about Sodom and Gomorrah, and how we're all sodomized or whatever, but I don't know when, when it became really okay for Christian people to hate on the gays.

Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. They need to step back. Oh, did I say that out loud?

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: They're right behind me, aren’t they? 

Mike: Not yet, at least.

Jessika: And also, why is it such a theme that these main characters, low key become cult leaders every single time 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: It's like, yikes, Catholicism, have some awareness about what a cult-vibe you give off, just like, generally. All in all, the religion is so forced in there that the plot lines of these stories rarely made any sense. It felt like the comics were a game of tug of war, trying unsuccessfully to write a cohesive storyline while still shoehorning in religion, which ultimately caused the comics to feel frenzied and disorganized. 

Mike: Yeah. On top of that, these are just [00:47:00] so dry. They’re so dry. I get the Thomas Nelson was trying to adapt, quote unquote, major works of Christian literature. But, I can't think of anyone who really reads these books, let alone kids. I'm not really familiar with the whole Christian allegory genre of fiction, but there's gotta be better stuff out there than these books.

I know the Thomas Nelson for this line, they also had CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters turned into a comic, I couldn't find it to read, but I'm kind of wondering why they didn't try adapting some of his other work, like the Lion, the Witch, the Wardrobe, you know, Aslan is very much a Jesus' allegory and -

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: It just, it doesn't make a lot of sense not to do something with more name recognition.

I mean, hell, Thomas Nelson has an entire collection of fictional books in their catalog. I just scoped out their website today, and I don't understand why they didn't do a comic adaptation of something from there. But, [00:48:00] don't know, I guess that probably would have required extra effort involving research and the author's permission.

And it seems -

Jessika: Oh no.

Mike: Like no, I mean, that, honestly, that seems like more work than the publisher really was interested in committing to this whole endeavor.

Jessika: Fair. 

Mike: You know, and unsurprisingly, the Nelson comics imprint wasn't long for this world. And it was abandoned by 1994, reportedly due to low sales. Between the quality and the apparent lack of marketing and also the high price points, I can't say I'm surprised. I did find it really funny when I was looking at their website, they have  some limited edition of Dracula on their website and Shakespeare, and I'm like, those things are not Catholic friendly, or evangelical friendly.  Are these edited, are these just like, did he just decide to do like limited edition reprints? I don't know. 

Jessika: That's interesting. 

Mike:  Weirdly though, Thomas Nelson's recently gotten [00:49:00] back into comic books with Bible Force, which was a comic or a graphic novel that went on sale this year. Here, take a look at this cover, just check it out and tell me and me what you think.

Jessika: Yeah, let's see. Oh, oh, wow. 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: Okay. So, who's supposed to be the dude in the middle?

Mike: I don't know. I don't 

Jessika: Okay. So there's like some dude, there's some dude in the middle, he's got a sword, and it’s thrusting out towards the viewer. There's. What is it? Joseph and his Technicolor coat, I'm assuming that's what that was. Um, 

Mike: That's what it looks like.

Jessika: Uh, it's what it looks like.

It's a color, her coat there's there's Noah's Ark. There's definitely Jesus with arms outstretched. Although, of course, white Jesus, because why be historically accurate? All of these people are Caucasian. I might add in this entire comic, all of these people were Caucasian, except for a very few in the Jesus [00:50:00] episodes.

And those were just  people from far away, quote unquote, everyone else was very, very light-skinned.

Mike: Also, if you're going to give us white Jesus, can you at least give a shirtless white Jesus? I want to see some washboard abs.

Jessika: That's what I'm saying. 

Mike: Right?

Jessika: That's what I'm saying. So yes, this is just, it's very exciting. Says, Bible Force, the First Heroes Bible. I think that's Probably. Mary as well on the front. It's a woman also Caucasian, and she's got a head scarf of some sort on, it's pink, which they absolutely had magenta back in Bible days. I am sure, absolutely feasible. I'm there. Believe it. 

Isaac Mizrahi’s in there like designing, designing Mary’s outfit. Oh honey, you're going to look great in this. 

Mike: He is all about the [00:51:00] timeless looks, isn’t he?

Jessika: Yes. 

Mike:  So, I mean, that's the Nelson comics. Short-lived imprint. Do you have any final thoughts?

Jessika: Well, can't say I'm surprised that these didn't continue on. I can't imagine that they were really keeping kids’ attention, or giving them any type of cohesive and thoughtful messages. 

Mike: No. I mean, probably not. I don't think many comic retailers were carrying them either because this was right at the height of my teenage collecting years, and I don't remember seeing any of this stuff in any of the shops that I frequented.

Jessika: Yeah, it was pretty much like here: look at the colors. Oh, and have some antisemitism, enjoy. 

Mike: And some casual misogyny. It's fine.

Jessika: Yes. Yes, exactly. 

Mike:  If you could sum up the titles from this imprint [00:52:00] in one word, what would you use?

Jessika: Confused. 

Mike: I was going to go soulless, but that's also good.

Jessika: Oh, yours is better. 

Mike: Now is the time of the show where we discuss our Brain Wrinkles, which is the one thing comics or comics-adjacent that has been just stuck in our head for the last couple of days that we just want to talk about. I guess we should talk about the recent Highlander casting news. Would you like to take that away?

Jessika: Oh, oh certainly. Certainly. Oh my goodness. So, during our Highlander episode, Mike, you mentioned that there has been a Highlander reboot in the works since 2008

Mike: Yep.

Jessika: And we were speculating on who would be good to cast. Well, there is a reboot in the works, but we were both incorrect about casting, and sorry about that, Chris Pine and Channing Tatum, because either of you [00:53:00] would have been most fabulous in this role, but it landed and it turned out to be Henry Cavill who will be our new next Highlander.

And I'm sure he'll have a new name because that's kind of how we trend with the Highlander series, which is good. 

Mike: Yeah, they haven't announced the actual role that he's playing yet, but it's assumed that he's going to be the MacLeod who's the main character.

Jessika: I would think so. Wouldn't it be interesting if he was like the Kurgan or something that would be really funny. 

Mike: Yeah. I think I mentioned this, supposedly Bautista is going to be the Kurgan, but that he'd signed on, I think back in 2015. So it's been six years since then?

Jessika: Well, I have to say though, I'm not all that upset about this turn of events. What about you, Mike? 

Mike: No, not at all. I just tore through the Witcher series on Netflix last week, over the course of a couple of days while I was working, I had it on in the background. And it was really nice to see Cavill in a role that wasn't [00:54:00] Superman, which is, you know, I use the term, unfortunately, he is just so associated with that role right now.

And, honestly, I like him as Superman, I just wish they gave him better scripts and movies to work with. 

Jessika: Yeah. And it's hard to feel typecast as well. You don’t, you know, you don’t want to be Daniel Radcliffe, you know, playing Harry Potter for 20 years and then not being able to do anything else, although he's done very well. So I, can't say that.

Mike: I was going to say I actually really - 

Jessika: You know, not a good example, I suppose. 

Mike: I love the choices that the Daniel Radcliffe has made since Harry Potter,

Jessika: Yeah, me too.

Mike: He has chosen so many insane roles. It's great. 

Jessika: Yeah.

Mike: Um, yeah, no, like, you know, honestly, Cavill. First of all, I just, I really like Henry Cavill, like, he's given the interviews where he's talked about how playing Superman makes him want to be a better person, because he is portraying this character who is a role model for so many, especially the little kids.

And that just [00:55:00] makes me really fond of the dude. 

Jessika: That's so sweet. 

Mike: He seems like another Chris Evans, and I'm, fine with that. That said, he is fucking grumpy in the Witcher, and it’s really fun. He basically just has this very surly charisma throughout the entire show.

And he's still jacked, but he’s not as yoked as he is for the Superman rules. Like he doesn't look like a bodybuilder, he just looks like an incredibly fit dude, and I'm fine with that.  Also, he does action scenes really well. The guy who's handling the reboot is Chad Stahelski, who did the John Wick movies. Dude knows his way around an action scene.

And if you ever want to see an example of Henry Cavill in good action scenes, watch the Witcher or the Mission Impossible movie that he was in, where he literally does that thing where he reloads his arms and then puts up his Dukes. I can watch that scene on repeat for hours. It's great.

Jessika: Nice. I'll have to watch that. I haven't seen the Witcher [00:56:00] yet. 

Mike: Yeah. It's fun. We'll talk about that later on, but it's good. I really liked it even coming into it without having any real familiarity with the games or the books that it's based on.

Also, I got to say that Highlander heart group that we were in, some of those people were grumpy at the casting.

Jessika: Yes. Some people were very grumpy. It was, it was a mixed bag. Some people were very excited and some people were very, very, very grumpy. 

Mike: And even -

Jessika: Okay. 

Mike: To their credit, even the people who were unhappy, weren't toxic, like in some other groups we've seen.

Jessika: Oh, correct. Yes. That was very refreshing, cause, you know.

Mike: Yeah. the backstory to your listeners is that we have been a part of other Facebook groups that are just heinously toxic nerd culture groups. And we swipe left pretty quick when we're in there.

Jessika: Yeah, I don't want to feel like I can't like things or I don't want somebody telling me the amount of a fan. I am the type of fan I am. 

Mike: Exactly. 

Jessika: Gatekeeping is awful. Don't do it. 

Mike: Yeah, don’t be a jerk, [00:57:00] I have to say the news that has been coming out about the reboot for Highlander sounds pretty promising. So fingers crossed that it doesn't suck but, we'll see.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I believe that's it for this episode, so we'll be back in two weeks, and until then, we'll see y'all in the stacks.

Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us; text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson, written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson-Johnson of Bay Area Sound. Our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan MacDonald and it was purchased with a standard license from PremiumBeat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by cut_thistles on Instagram.

Jessika: If you'd [00:58:00] like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is @tencenttakes. Jessika is @jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K, and Mike is @vansau V A N S A U.  

Mike: Stay safe out there.

Jessika: And support your local comic shop. 

It's time to return to The Dreaming! This week, we're discussing the third and fourth volumes of Neil Gaiman's celebrated series. Come for the one-off stories of Dream Country, and give the devil his due when we cheer Lucifer's epic trolling of Dream in Season of the Mists. 

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Episode 17 Transcript

Jessika: [00:00:00] I just, I like have had five sets of teeth in my life. They just keep growing bigger and bigger each set I got, 

 Hello, and welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcasts where we morph from delight to delirium one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the blasphemous baker, Mike Thompson. 

Mike: I am full of carbs and caffeine. How are you doing?

Jessika: Oh, I am somewhat of both as well. Could use a little more sleep, but I have a day off tomorrow, so I will be doing that, 

Mike: I'm jealous. 

Jessika: Dude. I work nine hours a day. Don't be too jealous. It's those nine hours that get me that day off. 

Mike: Oh man. I've been pulling [00:01:00] like 10 to 12 hour days for a couple of months and I'm just, 

Jessika: Oh shit. Nevermind. Goodness. Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. If you'd like to support us, be sure to download rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you live. 

Mike: Yeah, that really helps with discoverability. We know that we are not a large podcast, but the support that we've gotten from everybody has meant a lot to us. And we're hoping that we can continue to reach more people. If you like, what you're hearing, do us a favor and invite your friends to like our pages, every little bit helps. 

Jessika: Yeah, well, today we're continuing on. with the second episode of our book.

As we discuss volumes three and four of the Sandman series. But before we jump into [00:02:00] that, Mike, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched lately? 

Mike: Something actually that you mentioned on the last book club episode that we did was that there is a Sandman Audible book right now. As much as I don't like giving Amazon my money, if I don't have to, I've had an Audible membership for like a decade. And that means I have access to their Audible originals, which is what this audio book is.

And then one of my friends, hi, Darren, also recommended that I listen to the audio book after I told them that we were doing a Sandman book. So I finally downloaded the audio book and started listening while I walked the dogs. And it's legit incredible, like all-star cast. It feels like an audio play complete with like all these incredible production values.

Neil Gaiman is serving as the narrator and then they have all of these incredible actors voicing characters and it actually, you know, Neil [00:03:00] Gaiman rewrote it. And so it feels like what he wanted the Sandman, the first volume Preludes and Nocturnes to be, with the hindsight of 30 plus years.

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: Yeah, it's great. 

Jessika: And he's such a good orator. 

Mike: he is he's done a couple of his other audio books that I've listened to over the years. He did The Graveyard Book, which was The only way I can describe it as a Victorian Gothic version of the Jungle Book. And then he also did Coraline. I think he did Coraline.

I'm pretty sure he did, but every time that I've listened to him, narrate stuff, it's always been just fantastic, 

But, yeah.

Jessika: Great. 

Mike: How about you?

Jessika: Well, I grabbed another $1 image teaser comic. , this time it was Kill or Be Killed by Ed Brubaker. Sean Phillips and Elizabeth Breittwiser. It was okay. 

It didn't grow. It followed the first person account of how a man was driven to be an assassin. He basically attempted to die by suicide by jumping off a roof, ended up not dying, but [00:04:00] being visited by what appears to be a demon who tells him , that he now owes him for the life.

He tried to waste or something, a life for a life, kind of a such and the rubric for killing being , someone basically like bad and it's not very well defined. So he goes from this guy who can't fathom killing someone to being ready to kill. So he doesn't die. The whole reason he wanted to die was over a woman that chose his roommate over him, by the way, like his best friend.

And it was this whole pining love thing. It was just a little just had, really bad incel vibes. You know what I mean? 

Mike: Yeah,

Jessika: I don't know. It just felt very strange. Like his whole motive was very, contrived it felt, 

Mike: Yeah. Brubaker does a lot of good stuff, but he writes a lot of, kind of the modern equivalent of pulp noire. 

Jessika: Mm. 

Mike: Everything that you've described sounds very much like a Brewbaker story. You got to find the right thing. He writes some really good stuff. Like he's the guy who actually created the winter soldier for the Captain America Comics.

Jessika: [00:05:00] Okay. 

Mike: Yeah. He did a couple of other kind of like noire-ish stories for image that they were hit or miss for me, but when he's good, he's really good. And then other times it's just, it's not my vibe.

Jessika: Okay. That's fair. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So, honestly though, again, it was one of those $1 Image teaser situations. 

Mike: I love how they do that. 

Jessika: I didn't feel like I really lost anything. 

Mike: No, I think that's a really great strategy of theirs where it's just kind of the entry-level pilot.

Jessika: Yeah, well, let's mosey on to our main topic. 

Mike: Yes.

Jessika: So last episode, just to recap, we covered an overview of the history and places you can read, watch and listen to the Sandman series. And if you haven't already listened to episode 15, we highly recommend you check out that episode for that. And our discussion on the first two volumes of the Sandman series, because from here, we are going to be discussing [00:06:00] volumes three and four.

I don't really have many tidbits per se for us this episode. Really? We're just going to look at the plot and then talk about what we thought. 

Mike: I actually have a couple of tidbits. Believe it or not, not many, but a couple.

Jessika: Mike has tidbits everyone. I love it. I didn't even know. Well, awesome. 

Mike: All right. So should we kick things off? 

Jessika: Let's do it. Volume three is titled Dream Country and it was published in 1990 and only included issues 17 through 20. And what made up a four-story anthology. It was, of course, written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones III, Charles Vess, and Colleen Duran. We start with the story of Calliope, the youngest Greek muse, who has been imprisoned by Erasmus Fry to be his own personal muse. Super gross. [00:07:00] She'd been captive for closest 60 years. So Erasmus gives Calliope to Richard Maddick, who is a writer who has one successful novel but now has hit a patch of writer's block.

And unfortunately for Calliope, he's a greedy motherfucker who only cares about his own success. So he takes Calliope who has been left without clothes in a room alone. And of course, immediately rapes her. This one was really hard for me. You can already tell, as I'm trying to get through this description. 

Mike: Yeah, it's an uncomfortable issue to read now. Even now it's, mean, it was really uncomfortable when I first read it when I was, I don't know, 18 or so. And it's just gotten increasingly gross as time goes on, especially now, post me too in the entertainment industry.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definite correlations there. 

Mike: Oh yeah. Oddly prescient.

Jessika: Yes. So Richard of course gets gains from this whole [00:08:00] situation and enjoys a few years of very good success. He writes more hit novels, some award-winning poetry, and even gets into Hollywood with writing and directing. So here we are again with the correlation situation and of course winning awards in that area. And this is all happening while Morpheus is still in prison, by the way, until he isn't any longer. And one thing we need to know about Calliope is that she and Morpheus have history. In fact, they have a child together. So Calliope calls out to him in desperation. After being told by her visiting muse sisters, that they were unable to help her and help Morpheus did. The author wanted ideas, then he was inundated with them. So many that they were causing him to have an actual breakdown seemingly with psychological effects. In the end, Richard sends someone to release her where he only finds Erasmus Fry's book in the room where she should have been. 

Mike: And doesn't it [00:09:00] originally start out with Morpheus trying to free Calliope, but Richard doesn't want to, because he needs the ideas she gives him when he rapes her?

Jessika: Yeah

Mike: Yeah. And that's when Morpheus sits there and basically punishes him with an overflowing chalice of ideas.

Jessika: Yeah. It's, definitely a fitting punishment. In my opinion 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: story, number two was super fun. I think you and I can probably agree. And this story was about a cat speaking to a crowd of cats in a graveyard. And this cat told the story of having kittens and having them taken away by the people that owned her. And of course, the guy was super level-headed about the whole thing and took the kittens to a shelter and they were adopted by loving families and, oh wait, never mind.

He put them all in a bag, tied the bag to a large rock, and threw it in a body of water. I just can't with people. Like, honestly, I can't, 

Mike: It's a safe assumption that people are going to be terrible throughout this series.

Jessika: I mean, it's true, [00:10:00] but I would love to have them all adopted. So the cat naturally is super upset but also looking for some sort of vengeance or something. And that night she has a dream where she goes on a long and difficult dream quest to see what is ultimately Meowpheus the cat. 

Mike: Meowpheus I like that. 

Jessika: So basically a Meowpheus tells her that cats used to rule. They were larger and humans were basically the pets. Instead, cats choosing to hunt humans for food and sport and keeping them to feed and groom them. One day, humans banded together and with participation from only 1000 humans, they were able to dream the same dream together and basically manifest humans being the alpha in the world, instead of the cats. And this went back into time where the power of the collective dream actually rewrote history in favor of humans, making the cat subservient. Instead. [00:11:00] The cat in the graveyard was basically preaching a gospel, asking all the cats in the graveyard to dream the same dream. That she was trying to get 1000 cats to help her so that, they could all pull a Cher and turn back time to be in power once again. I enjoyed the partying quippy remark from one of the listener cats, which was effectively good luck getting multiple cats to do anything at the same time.

Mike: Uh, yeah. Accurate.

Jessika: And while it was really sad and cruel I like the idea that cats have an attitude for a reason. 

Mike: Yeah, I thought it was cute. It was just, it was a very, I mean, we'll get into this later on, but it was, I thought it was very.

Jessika: Yeah. The third step. Told us, the creation of Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream wherein Morpheus has actually requisitioned the play in specific terms and asks Billy Shakes and his troop to perform in the middle of an empty field. Well, kind of. That field is not empty for a long as [00:12:00] Titania, Oberon, Puck, and all the other characters from the fairy realm have arrived through the portal, which Morpheus opens for them. It's mentioned during the dialogue between Titania and Morpheus, that this is probably the last time the mortal realm would allow them to enter, that they were feeling the hostility from Gaia upon their entry. During the play puck steps in for the actor playing himself and kills of course, and Titania is very strangely fascinated with Billy's 11 year old son Hamnett and is like trying to entice him. And then in the end, everybody, but Puck leaves the realm. And it's mentioned at the end of the issue that Hamnet died later that same year. So like, did Titania finally get Hamlet to go with her? 

Mike: You know, it's left a little bit open, but it's playing into that whole idea of the changeling child and, you know, the mortals who go over into the very realm, as children, which I really liked that I thought it was a nice ending that was very bittersweet.

Jessika: Yeah. I thought so too. And the fourth and final story [00:13:00] of this volume is called Facade and it is about a woman named Rainey who we learn has been given a gift by the sun, God Ra, which makes her a metamorph. Meaning that she can change her physical appearance, physically change faces, skin, everything. But this also means that she no longer has a normal human appearance. Her skin is scaly and multicolored. Her hair has turned of violent shade of green and her face is withered and her nose is almost completely gone. We find Rainie living a very solitary life, getting a monthly disability check and only interacting with the worker assigned to her, but disability case she's depressed and has suicidal ideations. Probably the scariest part of the story is when an old friend who works for the same company that Rainey was working for, when Ra messed her up, who invites her to lunch, Rainie sucks it up, puts on a face literally and meets [00:14:00] at the restaurant. Where her entire face falls off into a plate of spaghetti. I don't, I don't know about you like that. I thought it was super terrifying.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to that very human emotion of seeing someone that you haven't seen forever. And you're trying to do as much as you can to make sure that they don't see that you've changed too much. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: You and I are at that age now where it's like, people from high school want to get in touch and we're all older.

You know, some of us are. And so you see these people and you still want to seem like the person that they knew, because you don't want to, you don't want them to comment on how you've changed. You don't want to acknowledge it. And I read it as she'd been working for like the CIA or an intelligence agency because they call it “The Company.”

They don't ever refer to it as anything else.

Jessika: I think it was something of that nature kind of checking out sites, et cetera. 

Mike: Yeah.[00:15:00] But yeah, and then the whole thing is that because she can change her body into elements. She's, she's a sidekick from the old Moetamorpho series in the sixties. I didn't really know much about her, but I did a little digging cause I couldn't remember a lot. And so Metamorpho is a DC hero who is part of the justice league and his whole thing is that he can't.

Basically change his body into any element that he wants. And so that was the whole thing where she's talking about, oh, like it's not hard for me to change the color of my hair. I I just turned it into copper and, and then she basically grows a kind of silica over her face, but she was saying that after roughly a day it gets stiff and, it falls off.

And unfortunately, that's what happened with her, at her lunch with her friend.

Jessika: Yeah.

it was definitely a bummer.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So of course, Rainey goes home crying where she has to break into her own house by melting the handle because she forgot her purse with her keys and breaks down crying. Death appears having been visiting one of Rainey's neighbors who fell off a stepladder and talks with Rainie, advising that she should [00:16:00] ask rah nicely to take away her gift, or at least giving us an option. She looks into the setting sun and becomes what I'm assuming is a pile of Ash. It looks like death didn't actually take her. So I'm not sure if Rainie is supposed to be just with the world. You know, just one with the world as it kind of seemed like she fear being 

Mike: You know, I read it as like she was, she had her immortality taken away from her because she seemed so happy when she turned into, I don't know if it was ash or glass or something. It was kind of hard to tell what the art, and then it cracked and fell apart. And then Death answers the phone and says something along the lines of like, no, she, she can't come she's gone away or something to that effect.

And, death isn't this cruel being or anything like that. I think death helped her move on. I'd like to think that she did.

Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. it was Fe usually. she like wanders away with the person [00:17:00] she's like low key reaping.

Mike: Usually. Yeah. I don't know. I think maybe it was just a little bit, it, it was for the sake of narrative in this case, 

Jessika: That’s fair. That's fair. 

Mike: But yeah. Urania was this, so her full name is Urania She was a side character for a few issues in Metamorpho’s sixties series. And then she wound up basically giving herself the same powers that he had, and it was delivered via device called the Orb of RA.

So it's really interesting because, Metamorpho is always a science character, because it's all about the elements of what he can turn himself into. But at the same time, there is in his background. is this like, you know, mystical quality to it. And so I liked that they kind of tapped into that mythology a little bit, and really they did a nice job with a character that I think most people had forgotten existed.

Jessika: So, Mike, did You have a favorite [00:18:00] character part of the story? What did you dig from this? 

Mike: This volume in particular, I really like, because it feels. Like a breather from the main narrative. And honestly, I think that's something that we needed because I mentioned last time, how I always am a little bit surprised at how dark the early stories are. They're very much horror stories with a little bit of fantasy kind of softening the blows a little bit, but there's a couple of moments in those first couple of volumes where I feel like I need to pack a flashlight.

it's dark. but yeah, this collection is just, a much-needed change of pace just for a little bit. My least favorite story is the one with the cats. And it's not because I think it's bad. I just don't connect with it that much. Part of it is because we've got a rescue cat, we treat her better than the kids. Let's be honest. I can't fathom throwing kittens into a pond. It was just, it feels a little bit too mustache-twirly. You know, especially in this day and age where like, if people find out [00:19:00] about that you get tracked down on social media and just annihilate it. But it was cute.

The whole bit where at the end, it's like, oh, it must be, it's dreaming, you know, it's chasing something and, you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. So it's, it's dreaming of hunting humans. Cool.

Jessika: [laughs], 

Mike: And it's funny, cause I was actually in a production of Midsummer Night's Dream when I first read this collection. So I loved everything about that specific issue. I loved how it tapped into fairy lore it showed this kind of weird, strange relationship with Titania and Oberon.

And how absolutely sinister pock seemed not to mention how there's that dangling plot thread, where he basically gets loosed on earth afterwards 

Jessika: mm. 

Mike: I don't know. It's just, it's very different than any other portrayal I'd seen up until then. And, , it's interesting because they brought those characters specifically back in a number of different ways across the vertigo comics later on, like to Tanya actually had her origin explained in the Books of Faerie, which was in itself a series that [00:20:00] spun off of another comic that Neil Gaiman wrote called the Books of Magick, where eventually it's revealed that the main character from the Books of Magick, Tim Hunter, who was like the next great magician of the age, he's like our version of Merlin.

It is very. They always leave it a little bit up in the air, but Titania’'s his mother, because she was a human who was brought into the world of Fairie. And then eventually he got married to Oberon and then she had an affair with a human that was in service to Oberon. 

Jessika: Okay. 

Mike: She becomes a major part of the lore in her own right. Which I thought was really cool. And Puck shows up again later in the series. I, like I still squirm when I read that story of Calliope, especially where we are like sitting on the other side of me too, and the ongoing flood of stories about successful men in the arts, just being abusive, assholes to those who aren't as powerful as they are.

Like when we're recording this, there's a whole flood of stories coming out of Activision [00:21:00] blizzard, if you're not in video games, they make Warcraft and a bunch of other stuff. it turns out that that was a really toxic place for women. And I spent almost a decade working in video games with various companies and yeah, it's not surprising, but it's just, these stories need to be told that at the same time, they're always super uncomfortable to read.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Um, yeah. And then, the facade story, I really liked, I really appreciate how gaming does this amazing job spinning out a story that's focused on loneliness and how harmful it is. and then I thought it was kind of neat that it arguably has a happy ending, though the main character dies.

Jessika: Yeah. I can see that. 

Mike: Same question back at you. What about you?

Jessika: So, you know, I really enjoyed the cat story. 

Mike: You don't say.

Jessika: I did. I mean, I get it though. Like cats are, are super intense and honestly they make [00:22:00] me a little nervous. I heard some horror stories about cats, just going bananas on people and them just like getting super fucked up, like missing part of an ear and shit.

Like I've heard some stories. That's just like a regular house cat. Oh, I don't think so 

Mike: Well, and then you've met our cat.

Jessika: Yeah. Well, yeah. You know that's but I don't, I didn't fear your cat right away. There are some cats I go into someone's house and I'm just like, oh, I got to watch my back. 

Mike: We have a dog and a cat's body.

Jessika: Yeah. Your cat’s sweet. 

Mike: No, she... she's fat and lazy and she knows who feeds her. So she's like, I'm good. I don't need to get out. I don't need to be now.

Jessika: I'm strictly a dog household, so I just don't really truly get them to be honest with you. And I honestly, I'm kind of glad I have allergies as an excuse, not to have to get one. So did you have a favorite art moment in this volume? Like was there a panel or cover that really stood [00:23:00] out to you or hit you in some kinda way? 

Mike: Yeah. That final sequence in the Midsummer issue, so that one was illustrated by Charles Vess and he's this really he's this artist that has this really beautiful illustration style that feels very old school storybook. Sarah loves this British artist named Arthur Rakim and Vess always kind of reminds me of his work, but the closing monologue by Puck is I gotta be at that closing monologue is kind of terrifying, especially with the way that it's illustrated.

I also liked how this felt almost like, well, I mean, it was in certain ways, it was a sequel to men of good fortune, that issue that we talked about last time with Hob Gadling and the mortal that keeps on meeting up with Morpheus. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah, you remember during, the last book club episode, how I mentioned that Sandman won the World Fantasy Award. Yeah. So it was for this issue specifically, you know, and then they got all grumpy about it and they [00:24:00] changed it so that you could no longer win a world fantasy award with a comic book. So. The only comic book to ever win a world fantasy award,

Jessika: extra salty, 

Mike: extra salty.

Jessika: Hate to see it. 

Mike: what about you? Like, I'm actually curious. What did you think about Vess’s illustration style? Because we haven't seen, I don't think we've really seen much of his artwork in the series up until now.

Jessika: We haven't, and that's actually this, this was my favorite art volume as well, or art issue as well. I mean, it just, it was beautiful. It used color in a really interesting way that went from playful to dark and serious. I mean, it just with the same type of illustration and the color would just change the whole. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Which was super cool just by adding shadows, moving the colors. Plus you got to love a good donkey head and you know, okay. I was musing and you have to go with me on this journey. They had to have used a taxidermied donkey's head. Right. 

Mike: [00:25:00] No, they, I 

Jessika: Please. Come on, come on, go with me on this journey. 

Mike: Ugh no. Hmm. 

Jessika: Ah, 

Mike: Like, like that's a whole element in that American Horror Story series, like where  they make a mandatory by putting a bull's head on a dude. Like, no, no,

Jessika: I am going horror with this one.

Mike: Well, have fun going down that road. I'm not there with you.

Jessika: Okay. Well, that's good. I suppose we are on volume four 

Mike: I suppose 

Jessika: Volume Four!. Alright. 

Mike: What accent is that?

Jessika: I don’t know, I do a lot, don't I?

Mike: A little bit? 

Jessika: I think it's my 1920s. 

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: I don't know. It's like my newscaster, I used to have an old-timey newscaster kind of an accent that I did. 

And I think I'm combining, I'm combining my Virginia [00:26:00] Montgomery Prescott, the third Esquire. 

Mike: It's, that so proper American that it's almost English kinda like that very Northeastern accent. 

Yeah. 

Jessika: Yes. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. All right. 

Jessika: All right. Volume four is titled season of the mists and came out between 1990 and 1991 and included issues 21 through 28. Story as always was written by Neil Gaiman and illustration was done by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones, the third Mike Drigenberg, Matt Wagner, Dick Giordano, George Pratt, and P Craig Russell. Volume four begins with our introduction to destiny. Ooh. While wandering his realm is visited by the fates, the three sisters that we have seen previously, the sisters inform him that he needs to call a [00:27:00] reunion of all his siblings of the eternal realm. So off, he goes to the family gallery where he goes up to each portrait of his sibling and they appear out of the portrait.

When summoned the siblings are a mix of characters we have seen. And one that is new to this issue. Death who is told to change her outfit, even though no one else was, I thought that was kind of rude. 

Mike: Yeah, Destiny's a stickler for formality.

Jessika: Yeah. Well, the other one's got to wear nimble to CWA. They got to wear whatever 

Mike: Hmm.

Jessika: I, whatever. I don't know. It makes me angry. So don't tell women they have to change. They are not a distraction. Death has followed by Dream and then the twins, Desire and Despair, and lastly Delirium who we come to find out, used to be Delight. So during their reunion, desire calls out Dream’s treatment of lovers who have spurned [00:28:00] him, leading him to ask for validation of his actions from Death. And Death instead agrees with. Prompting dream to plan, to travel to hell in order to remove queen nada from her torturous captivity, who was, that was the subject of their whole conversation. 

Mike: Yeah. And we actually saw that whole story in the previous volume to 

Jessika: Yes, 

Mike: saw what happened to.

Jessika: exactly. so destiny closes out the reunion basically stating that the actions that needed to be put into motion had been accomplished by dream deciding to go back to.

hell. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: The next issue gives us a taste of what hell looks and feels like. So back in the dream realm, Dream is saying his goodbyes and makes a big announcement to those living in his realm. He tells them about Nada, how he had been unjust and how he had to rectify his actions and that he may not return as he is not on good terms with Lucifer.

So [00:29:00] he sends Cain to Hell as a messenger to let loose for know that dream will be visiting whether he approves or not basically. So that was fun. 

Mike: Well, he knows that he can't kill Cain because Cain is protected by the mark of Cain from, the Cain and Abel story. He knows about that. 

Jessika: oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

Mike: That's why dream sent Cain it's because he knows that Cain can't be killed.

Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. Lucifer clearly is still really salty about being embarrassed. The last time dream was there and he makes an announcement to his, his demonic minions reminding them that he is the oldest and strongest bad-ass lets them know that dream will be returning and implies very strongly. That the day that Dream returns will be very memorable. Kane delivers the response to Dream. And on the last stop of his farewell tour, Dream also visits Hippolyta whose husband [00:30:00] was the pho dream king superhero thingy from one of the other stories while he was enslaved or, you know, captive. 

Mike: Yeah. she and Hector the previous Doctor Fate were being used by Brute and Glob to basically create kind of like an island for them to operate outside of the dreaming the dreams of a kid who was being abused. 

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: And then, Dream is on her shit list because he sent her ghost of a husband on to wherever he got sent onto, but she was pregnant at the time.

And so there's a connection between Dream and the baby because she carried the baby to term mostly in dreams,

Jessika: Well, the baby was in gestation for like that, like 30, 30, 40 years or something more than that. I mean, it was like 60 years? I don't  remember how many it was like however long or 

Mike: I, 

Jessika: or was it just the kid timeframe?

Mike: I think it was just the kid timeframe. So I think it was only for a couple of years, but still it was in gestation injuries for a long time compared to.

Jessika: Oh, I can't even imagine [00:31:00] being pregnant once, let alone for like two years straight. Holy crap. And she was like really pregnant. That's not comfortable. 

So Morpheus advises Hippolyta to take good care of the kid that had been gestating in the dream realm, because he will take it someday. So. Cool. Thanks, Dream. That's awesome. 

Mike: Really endearing us to you, buddy.

Jessika: Yeah.

serious. Oh, he also gives her the name Daniels because she had kind of been struggling with a name for him. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: So that's the kid's name now? I guess. So Dream makes his way to hell anticipating a fight with Lucifer, but what He finds is an eerily empty hell with Lucifer in the process of locking all the gates. And when asked about this loose advises that he's, he's done, he's quitting and he is no longer the ruler of hell. He's freed everyone and everything that was locked up. And he's not really sure what happened to them or where they all went, whether it was to earth or other realms or what, but he just [00:32:00] knows they're no longer in hell

Mike: Yeah. He likes straight up. Does not care. 

Jessika: Oh, zero fucks. None. 

Mike: They're his favorite kind of problem. Not his.

Jessika: Then he goes, Yeah. think I'm bluffing. Hey, here's a knife. Why don't you cut off my wings? Just see, just, just go ahead and see. And, and Dream does. And then as a parting gift, he hands the key to hell Dream stating basically Like Hey, this is your problem now.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: that's some high-level trolling. 

Mike: Dream was prepared for just about every outcome except that one. It is.

Jessika: Exactly. We are then introduced to Oden who travels to the cavern where Loki is being held captive and has been enduring an eternity of torture until Ragnarok, the end times in which the Asgardian realms would be destroyed. Odin [00:33:00] frees low-key from his situation and asks him to help him as he wants to take over the Hell situation since Lucifer abdicated and Loki agrees to help, then we cut back to dream because he's not really sure what to do.

So he calls on his sister death for advice. And she has like, no time. First of all, she has no time for him in that issue. She's like, what do you need? I'm super busy. She pretty much says, this is your problem. Also, he knows things are going to go down and he hides, frustrated his castle basically. And then he just starts getting visited by all these different parties, all wanting the keys to hell.

So you have the Asgardians, Azazzle and a demon Envoy who’re like “That's my house. I just want to live in my house again.”

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. Anubis and Bastet who are like, yo, [00:34:00] you know, who does a good job with death with underworlds let me show you. 

Mike: it's a really eclectic mix of mythological figures because you also have. The Lords of chaos and order send their envoys, Shivering Jemmy from the Lords of chaos who... I really like her. I think she's a great, 

Jessika: did too. 

Mike: and then the Lords of order send their representative and it's a cardboard box that basically spits out ticker tape 

and 

Jessika: Which 

Mike: And, then you get the elves, a ferry at one point. And they have, a really unique proposition, which is that the lands of Faerie had a tie to hell where every seven years they had to send over a certain number of , their best and brightest as a sacrifice. And they wanted, basically begging dream, not to let hell reopen.

Jessika: And we did. We establish that That was still a thing when all the other shit went down. 

Mike: That specific deal?

Jessika: yeah. 

Mike: Oh yeah. It's still a deal. And actually, that was a whole thing in the books of [00:35:00] magic. They have a whole thing with ferry and hell going into conflict with each other, because I think it has been almost 20 years since I read this last. But if I remember right, it was, I think Faerie refused to pay the tithe anymore anymore.

And as a result, they basically straight up, went to war with hell. and it was, oh man, it was cool. I remember liking that storyline. I don't remember it enough to really talk about it a lot though, because it's 

been so long. 

But it's, it's good. It's in one of the collected volumes of the Books of Magick that they did, they only collected the first 50 issues, 50 through 75 aren't collected anywhere.

Jessika: Hmm. 

Hmm. So we also had Suzan O No Mikto 

Mike: Yes. 

Jessika: Oh, and a couple of angels who were there just to be voyeurs to the situation 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: and Dream finally lets them into the castle. [00:36:00] After he stopped sulking and he advises that he'll be hosting a banquet and having accommodation set up and they could discuss the key to the realm the next day, basically. And we start seeing the consequences of hell's release through a boys boarding school where one solitary boy is staying over during the holidays while his father, as a prisoner of war in Kuwait 

and all hell returns.

When boys and staff who used to attend the school, start to show back up 

Mike: yeah.

Jessika: Along with the headmasters previously deceased mother. 

Mike: Yes. It's... that issue. It's really interesting because I really didn't like it originally. And I've come to appreciate it more because it feels like a very Gothic or story kind of like the Hunting of Hill House from Netflix. 

Jessika: I can see that. Yeah. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika:  It was wild. 

Like all of them had reasons that they were in hell. 

Mike: Yeah. That [00:37:00] issue is really interesting and it's really weird because it's drawn by Matt Wagner, who has a very interesting style. All of his own Wagner himself is famous for creating a couple of different characters on his own.

Like he created a character called the Grendel, who is this assassin and wound up becoming a cult property, had a long run with Dark Horse, if I remember right. But this story in season at the mist is really creepy because the whole thing is that the dead are coming back to earth and all sorts of unexpected ways.

And then there were a bunch of boys who were really awful, Who come back and they start tormenting Charles, because he's the only living soul there. And he's also, you know, he's a sweet, sensitive little kid, like who is just an easy target for people like that. And the thing is, is like, that was me when I was at that age was I was that sensitive kid who was just an easy target for bullies.

And so it was really hard to read it when I was younger. And, I've got a little different perspective now, [00:38:00] but it's, still tough. Anyway, go on.

Jessika: Oh, that's okay. So yeah, Charles, unfortunately, he got tortured by that trio of boys. And apparently those boys had murdered another school boy as an offering to Lucifer. So joke’s on them, the offering didn't save them from the torture of damnation, 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: so Charles ends up being physically tortured and then starves to death.

And his only companion was that other boy who had been killed on the premises that boy, that, those, 

that trio allegedly sacrificed. Edwin. Yeah. So death rolls up to pick them up and Charles says “Yeah, no thanks. I’m gonna hang out with, uh, Edwin and deaths. Like you don't, I don't, I don't have time for this. Like literally every one is coming back.

Like I literally don't have time. I will come back for you. 

Mike: I loved that she was in early nineties, jogging paraphernalia, like 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I thought it was fantastic.

Jessika: was ready for it. 

Mike: [00:39:00] I may be misremembering this, but I thought it was really funny how it was like, I think it was like pink and purple too. Like it was very colored.

Jessika: I think it did have some color to it. 

Yeah.

Oh, funny. So back in the dream realm, two more guests from the theory realm, those two that we had talked about, they arrive and the banquet in. And each of the guests eats and drinks, their desire delicacies, cause , poof we're in dreamland and shenanigans ensued due to the differences of the attendees. And one by one, they basically corner Morpheus requesting a private conversation and he provides each of them with a signal stadium that he'll meet with them after the banquet and entertainment have concluded Cain and Abel show up as the entertainment we're able dies,by being cut in half and then being made into sausage in a magic act 

Mike: which. That is a, that is a recurring theme with Cain and Abel in, in the Sandman comics. 

Jessika: Yeah, I've noticed. 

Mike: But, [00:40:00] Cain was the host of another horror series called the house of misery. And he always had this kind of macabre sort of sense of humor. I know Abel eventually showed up in the house mystery series.

I don't know if Cain murdered him every time. I wouldn't be surprised.

Jessika: Fair enough. So this is this tracks apparently, each of the guests go off to their respective quarters to wait to be summoned. And they each go to Morpheus, either offering something they think he would want or threatening him in order to turn over control the key to hell. And he advises each one of them that he will announce his decision in the morning. And once in the privacy of his own quarters, he ruminates on the pressure of the weight of his responsibility that was dropped on him. 

Mike: Yeah. What was your favorite bargaining tactic? I've got mine. I'm curious about yours.

Jessika: I didn't like the whole trading people thing. I don't know. Cause they were all so good in different ways. Like order and chaos were both really interesting to me. I think chaos just being like, [00:41:00] we will find you 

Mike: Chaos was my favorite

Jessika: 

I was going to say like, but Shivering Jemmy was just so funny to begin with. 

Mike: Well, 

Jessika: was just such an interesting. 

Mike: you know, they play, they play with this a lot because, Dr. Fait is one of the Lords of order, DC comic books. And so there's always been this presentation that, order is, the right way to go. And what I kind of enjoyed is that this very much embodies, no order is a dull little box in chaos is chaos.

It's not what you expect. And so they send this, hobo girl with a red balloon and 

Jessika: like, uh, like a clown face. 

Mike: yeah, and she's like, speeding. Almost like toddler English, like it's much younger phrasing than you would expect from a kid who looks like they're 10 or 11.

And then, turns into this monstrous thing, delivering ungodly threats to the Lord of dreams. And then, you know, it turns back into the little kid again, after when it was like,[00:42:00] byeeeee. Yeah, I can get behind this.

Jessika: So good. She just ate ice cream for dinner too, which I loved. 

Mike: Oh yeah. It was so good. I, again, I think she shows up in the books of magic later on, but I can't remember for that one.

Jessika: That's amazing. So I really did like her as a character. 

Mike: it was good.

Jessika: So the next morning. As Morpheus, still struggles to decide to whom he will grant the key. He is visited by the voyeur angels who tell him they have a message for him from the creator who dictates that the two angels will now run hell and guess what guys, you're not allowed back to the silver city Remiel. Oh, Remiel was not happy about this situation. He did not take this well. 

Mike: No, he did not it was very much implied that he was about to rebel, like Lucifer.

Jessika: Yup. He's like fuck the shit. [00:43:00] Why do I have to go down there? And he had that. He was like, this is your fault. I was like, whoa, damn, you need to go calm down. Your silent homie is not the enemy. there was some salt. This issue. 

So Morpheus hands over the key after Remiel takes a chill pill and Morpheus still has the task of telling the other as the outcome of his decision and lets them know the decision was really made for him that if the creator of hell wanted angels to run it, who was he to decide differently from what the creator of that thing wanted to do with it. And most of his guests took this. Okay. I liked orders response of this? This is logical. 

Mike: Yeah. And then chaos is like, man, it's fine. We just didn't want order to get it. It's fine. Whatever.

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: And then 

Jessika: was even better. 

Mike: doesn't she give Morpheus her balloon afterwards? 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah, I thought that was great

Jessika: She's like, oh, well, 

I didn't really want this anyway. [00:44:00] but Azazel was especially upset about this whole situation 

Mike: Embodiment of bitter party of one.

Jessika: Yes. yes. Table for one. Absolutely. And he pretty much said that he was going to consume the souls of Nada as well as his companions from hell, because he had actually kidnapped her. 

Mike: Yeah, and we should note that one of his companions from hell was actually, the demon who had Morpheus’s helm before. it was a honied offer of him sitting there and saying, well, I will give you the woman that you're searching for, but then I'll also let you enact punishment of this guy who challenged you and to make you look bad in front of all of hell.

Jessika: That makes sense. I was kind of wondering why he was like, why would he care about this one, dude? But that makes way more sense. I forgot about that, dude. 

Mike: Yep. 

Jessika: There's a lot. There's a lot to remember in this. 

Mike: You know, I can't remember everything and I've read this series multiple times. It's a dense story. And I always feel like. I probably caught things before, but, I always [00:45:00] find things that I feel like I'm discovering for the first time with each reread.

Jessika: Oh, that's so cool. I'm so glad I picked up the trade paperbacks. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm glad that you, I'm glad you're spearheading this. This is a really fun series to talk about.

Jessika: Thank you. So Azazel tells Morpheus, basically, I'm going to consume the souls of Nada and my other companion, unless Morpheus could jump into the abyss of space of teeth, 

the abyss of his Azazel’s teeth, which he's just like space with teeth. Like that's what he is. 

Mike: And eyes..

Jessika: And eyes. Yeah, that's right.

He does have eyes too, but he's just like a bunch of Maltz mostly. Yeah. So Morpheus does it. He does the thing and jumps in, finds them, captures his Azazel  after he tries to go back on his word of letting them go. If he'd have found his company. And then asks his Raven friend, Matthew, to tell Nada that he needs to talk with her because he has some apologizing to do, 

Mike: Mm

Jessika: The inhabitants of hell [00:46:00] begun to return as the new angel leaders look on and dream meets with nada and makes a pitiful attempt at half-apology and Nada slaps him and in doing so extracts an actual apology, which it shouldn't take that much.

But Dream seems to realize how he's in the wrong. 

Although he almost immediately negates that understanding by once again, asking her to be the queen of the dream realm. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Bro. She was, and she was like, bro, we've done this already. I don't want to do this. I already said no to you once. And 

I meant it. 

Mike: I really appreciate that gaming does not make dream this infallible being, he very much shows like, no, he is. A flawed dude 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: and he doesn't always get things immediately.

Jessika: Yeah,

That was really interesting. [00:47:00] That piece of it, I mean, dream has to concede, but he he basically says, let's go discuss your future. 

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Which is really neat, cause he's taken her whole life away and, and then some, and he's in a, he's a negative said this blank she's for thousands of years been tortured in hell.

Like how do you even make that up? 

Mike: Exactly. And that was actually something that I was curious about the first time I read it, I'm like, how do you make this right? cause that's, that is so much red in the ledger.

Jessika: That's What I was thinking too. It's like, oh, okay, well, what are you going to do now, dude, aspire flowers and be like, well, babe, 

Mike: What about you chocolates? I only ate half of them.

Jessika: right? It's Valentine's day it's. This is what we do. Right. So, so Loki who was supposed to have been taken back to his cave of acid dripping wonder 

Mike: His torture cave,

Jessika: his torture cave with a snake and a woman. And torture. 

Mike: where he is [00:48:00] bound in the entrails of his own son and his wife catches venom dripped from a snake's fang. And then occasionally when she empties the cup, that's catching the phenom. It causes him to shake the earth and agony. And that's why we get earthquakes. Norse mythology is a thing. 

Jessika: Yes. And so Loki though has switched places, the little trickster he is with Suzano No-Ol-Mikoto who was sent back to the cavern to be forever tortured, which is rough. He didn't do anything. And then he tries to cut a deal with dream, to not get them sent back. 

Mike: he, he does like, he actually cuts a deal with him.

Jessika: I mean, he does cut a deal He does, which. Guy, are you at least get a, go get the other homie from the blade? He doesn't, he doesn't even go other homes.

Mike: yeah, he does 

Jessika: like he does. 

Mike: Yeah, he does. He says what I'll do is, as I will, I will basically create , an illusion of you in that tormented space. 

Jessika: Okay. I must have missed that part because I 

was just like guy. [00:49:00] 

Mike: it's a throwaway line. It's he basically sits there and he says like, but if I do that, you owe me a favor. 

Jessika: Okay. I mean, I got that part of it. I was like, you're getting out of this, but like, whoa, 

Mike: I have a lot of favorite moments in this, in this volume, but that was one of my favorites where dream asks him and he's like, why did you choose Susano No O Mikoto, but Loki basically just says, yeah, I just really don't like thunder gods.

And I was like, 

Jessika: Which all 

Mike: also I love how much of just a turd Thor is throughout the entire time that he appears he's such a gross dude. 

Like there's 

Jessika: gross. 

Mike: the bit where he's trying to hit on bass and he's like, do you want to touch my hammer? It gets bigger when you play with it. I'm like, blech

Jessika: it was so bad. And that he's just trashed. He's just like,Ugh. 

Mike: Well, I think bast actually scratches up his face too, which I thought was great. 

Jessika: Yup. Yup.

Mike: but it's funny because I read this in the nineties, give or take my only exposure to Thor in comic [00:50:00] books before that had been Thor, the superhero, and this was such a wildly different take on him.

I was like, this is amazing cause Thor was awful and mythology.

Jessika: Yeah.

Oh Yeah. there were definitely some, questionable stories that I have read. Yes. 

Mike: Anyway, I really enjoyed that. 

Jessika: yeah. So we also find out that Nuala that was one of the two ferries is being left in the dream realm, even though the ferry deal was not the one that panned out her bros, just like, see ya. I, I wasn't ever supposed to bring you back. You're staying regardless. 

Mike: Yeah. You're, a gift from the court to dream. 

Jessika: Which, and he's just like, okay. And he's like, oh, by the way, I don't dig glamour here. So you can just drop the glitz. You're glimmering right now. And then she's just this little petite, mousy hair, smaller elf looking, which, you know what I did not, I didn't like the whole idea that, she had to be, [00:51:00] that, 

That she felt like she had to glamour to begin with. And that, that was a whole thing. 

Mike: I don't know what part of mythology it is, but, but one of the European pieces of mythology is that the elves have an ability to wrap themselves in illusion. in that they're actually these kinds of weird, gross little things. So that, that was tying into kind of the European folklore. But yeah, it's a thing. I don't remember if she shows up in later issues. I think she does, but I don't remember.

Jessika: I mean, that would suck to just be like, by the way you live in the dream realm now oh and we're never featuring you again. Double rough. 

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Yeah. So after dream is like, nah, you gotta be you, boo. He goes and puts not a soul into a newborn child basically. So it's assumed that she will get to live the life that dream took from her so many centuries ago. 

Mike: Yeah. He basically, he, he gives her the opportunity to live life again, kind of wiping the slate clean, which is, mean, let's be honest. That's probably the best offer that [00:52:00] he can give her.

Jessika: He also puts her in a male body, which like, talk about like leveling up, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Come on. You're already doing better.

Mike: Yeah. And then he has that really nice moment where he says something along the lines of I will remember you and love you matter what body wear. And you will always be welcome in the dream realm. I have my quibbles with, with Dream, especially with this whole storyline. But I feel like that was arguably the best solution he could have come up with.

Jessika: Oh I agree. Yeah, when I did see that, that was the solution. I mean, you can't provide somebody with multiple lifetimes, but you can take away the pain of knowing that that happened and provide them with a new life that you don't interfere with.

I thought it was a good, a good deal. I guess. All things considered. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: We then cut to Lucifer, wingless, chilling on a beach, looking at the sunset where he is approached by an older man who walks [00:53:00] over and make small, talk about the sunset with him and stay till, see him tomorrow. If he's still there and Lucifer admitting that the sunset is actually really beautiful, goddammit and giving some credit to the creator. And we end the volume with the two new leaders of hell going around and making quote unquote changes 

Mike: yeah.

Jessika: the way things are. Basically, they're still going to be torture, but it's supposed to be phrased differently as a rehabilitation, but the angels don't quite understand the meaning of the tortures of hell, which makes it even worse. 

Mike: Yeah. It's so uncomfortably abusive where they're like, no, we're doing this because we love you. And one day you'll thank us for it.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: you're just like, woo. 

Jessika: It's it was a gross abuser situation. 

Mike: Yeah. And then there's that bit where one of the souls is like, no, you don't understand that makes it worse.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh Yeah. And unfortunately the angels start to embrace their [00:54:00] roles in the endless pain and suffering. 

Mike: Yeah. And that's actually, that's something that is, brought back to the forefront in Lucifer, the series that Mike Carey wrote in the late nineties to early odds, which I've talked about this before, but like that series is also, I think just as good as Sandman. It's really great, we also see a lot of pantheons of different gods getting pulled into Lucifer's machinations and there's a whole thing where he makes things difficult for the angels running hell.

Jessika: Oh, I'm excited to see it 

Mike: It's very good.

Jessika: Well what were your overall impressions of the story and who were your favorite or least favorite characters or events of this? 

Mike: It’s actually hard to sit there and talk about just a couple of favorite moments because I really love this collection. I loved it when I first read it. I still love it. I love the strange sadness of the overall story and the original takes on the gods. And also, I really love the twist that heaven takes over [00:55:00] the running of hell.

We talked about how I really enjoyed Dream kind of, spoiling the plot twist about Loki, having switched places with Susano. And, I really soured on Dream as a character in these early issues over time. I dunno it, like, when I read this as a kid, I was like, oh, okay. He feels bad about his actions. And is going to rescue this woman that he loves from hell and now I'm like, motherfucker, you put her in hell. And she details how awful her time there was like, come on, dude, you condemned her there for millennia just because she wouldn't marry you?Like, get fucked.

Jessika: And then you said, I guess I did something bad if that's how you feel. 

Mike: it wasn't even, you didn't even come to this realization  on your own. You had to be told by multiple people that you fucked up. Like a mediocre white guy in his thirties, you sat there and dug your heels and went no, no. Well, 

maybe

Jessika: “I don’t think that’s right.” 

Mike: maybe. All right, fine. [00:56:00] It's like, whatever,

Jessika: Oh, no. 

Mike: like that. I'm coming down harsher on dream than you are.

Jessika: No, but that's how I felt about it too. I mean, you're just doing all the work. I'm just going to sit back and ride this ride because I'm like, I'm there with you, but I'm like passenger seat. I'm chilling. Like I don't need to be the navigator. We have maps now we have Google maps.

It's fine. 

Mike: I’m sitting there swinging my arms and getting all mad and getting the cardio.

Jessika: Oh yeah. And I'm doing the pumping our movement of the trucks next to me. You know, I'm just along for this ride. No, I agree. He's a shit heel and a lot of these, and I'm like, I have had more than a few moments where I think to myself, how am I supposed to feel about this character? But then I think to myself, no, that's a good character.

But then I think to myself, no: That’s a good character. That's a good character, because that means it's complex. It's more realistic because that's what people. 

Mike: Yeah. To be honest, he is that privileged male character who has never had to really stop and think about his [00:57:00] actions really not have things go his way. 

And we are now at the part of tonight's program where we are finding out after having fucked around for a while.

Jessika: Fucked around so hard. So Well, I really enjoyed the banquet and I really liked the different interactions between the different mythologies and how they behaved and what they ate. And it was really funny, but I also thought it was very thoughtful. In the way that it was done.

And similarly with the way that each party had a different way and signal to meet with dream, it just really showed his understanding and empathy by adapting to each of his guests needs. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Or perhaps he's just used to doing this for each individual's dreams. 

Mike: Well, it's a little bit open to interpretation because in other episodes you see his appearance changed. Like there was, you know, he was Meowpheus.

Jessika: Yep. 

Mike: So my take on him is that his appearance. Doesn't change. It's just, we [00:58:00] perceive them in different ways. And because we are, you know, people reading the story, we are seeing him in his siblings manifest as people. 

Jessika: That’s very astute, sir. 

Mike: But yeah, I mean, like you looked at like the different art styles that came into play when he was meeting with the different gods. And I mean, I, I still think about how doesn' het have like a tea ceremony with Suzano when they're, when they're talking. And then I feel like it's much darker and moodier when he meets with Odin.

And then again, the art style changes again when he meets with Bast. 

Jessika: Yeah. Well, speaking of art, did you, did you have a favorite art moment in this volume? 

Mike: Yeah. okay. So you remember how last time we talked about how I have this, one defining moment where in Men of Good Fortune hob has these three panels where his face changes? 

Yeah. There's a couple of different images throughout the series that I always just kind of have pop up in my head when I think about it.

And one of them is from this volume and it's the bit where he's inside a Zazzle and [00:59:00] he's like prying open the mouse and the empty space and he's floating around it feels kind of more traditionally action comic booky, and the way that it's drawn, that's not a bad thing. It's just, for some reason it feels that way.

And I, I think it's really good. and I also really liked how at the end of it, he reveals that he is trapped. Azazel in a jar. It's very in keeping with how Gaiman would resolve conflict in ways that could be a giant battle, but instead they're very clever. , it was like when they had the battle between him and Dr.Destiny, and then afterwards you get the field of white and then it turns out he's just sitting in the Palm of dream's hand.

Jessika: Yes. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: So good. 

Mike: I'm curious, you're approaching this with fresh eyes because this is the first time you've read through this. So I'm wondering, do you have the same moments or are they different?

Jessika: I actually thought Morpheus had a lot of really good billowing robe moments. 

Mike: Yes.

Jessika: Like, I mean, they didn't have, I think they may have had like one semi-full page of like a billowy robes situation. But there were quite a few shots of him, like floating into [01:00:00] hell and he was just making an entrance 

Mike: yeah. I was just thinking that

Jessika: here for it.

Yeah. 

Mike: he's got his helm 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: the bit where 

Jessika: dressed up. This is the met gala. He is here. 

Mike: Yes. And then what I really liked about that was there's that moment where Lucifer is like, are you afraid of me? And more visas? Like, yes. And I'm like, all right. Not, your difficult comic book.

All right. Cool.

Jessika: Just being real between you and I. Absolutely. 

Mike: That was great.

Jessika: Yeah.

So I really like, again, to your point about what you really enjoyed was the kind of feeling of movement of probably him floating through space and having that action feeling. That's what I really liked about the billowy ropes. Was it just, I could almost see them moving, 

and I could feel the movement of him floating down, which was so neat. Yeah. Well, let's move along to our brain wrinkles. [01:01:00] 

Mike: All right.

Jessika: So this is the one thing comics or comic-related. That has just been sticking in our noggin since the last time we spoke. So, what is it for you? 

Mike: Well, Sarah and I had our anniversary this week, and she got me this really cool book called American Comic Book Chronicles, the 1990s by Jason Sachs and Keith Dallas. Do you remember those American century books from time life? They were those prestige format  photo history books, and they would document major moments in America and world history from across the 20th.

Jessika: I do. Yup. 

Mike: I feel like every school library had a complete volume. 

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: So this is like that except for Comics. And so it's really cool. And nobody should be surprised at this point to hear that I particularly love comics from the eighties and nineties. And as I'm reading through this book, it's reminding me about how absolutely insane the early nineties were when it came to the comic book industry and [01:02:00] also just comic collecting in general. So I think we're going to have to do an episode where we talk about something related to that topic sooner or later, probably sooner. it has been rattling around my head for the past couple of days where I just reread I've read the stuff that some of it, I knew some of it I didn't and all of it's insane.

Jessika: well, let's definitely talk sooner rather than later, because let's go back to childhood. 

Mike: All right. You talked me into it. We're going to do a nineties episode at some point. It's fine. FINE!

Jessika: Twisted his arm. There's no violence on this podcast. I'm a pacifist. God dammit. 

Mike: Uh, but yeah, that's me. What about you?

Jessika: Well, Mike, you told me about the podcast Bitches on Comics, which, okay. I'm not going to lie to you. I've binged the first 45 episodes since you told me about it less than a week ago, you haven't, it hasn't been a week. 

Mike: I can't remember. I know it's been about a week. [01:03:00] I really like that show.

Jessika: It's been about a week. Okay. It's so good. And they have their, I mean, they're very queer, which are, you know, a hundred percent I'm here for, and I got to tell you, they, 

Mike: Like more queer fans of comic books. Oh, no.

Jessika: Oh, no.

Well, and they have this thing in there where they're. There aren't a lot of queer podcasts about comic books and I'm like, wait, we're here now, here we are. Pick us. 

Mike: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, can we come talk to, you want to have us on, or do you want to come on our show? Like, whatever you want to talk about, it's fine. 

Jessika: I, will awkwardly approach them with my bag lunch and ask if I can sit with them. 

Mike: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. They're great. their Mojo episode, I thought was really interesting and I wound up tweeting with them for a little while because they pointed out that there really aren't many characters like mojo. And I think I made a good point with him. I mentioned how Superman's bill and Mr. Mxyzptlk might be another equivalent character[01:04:00] where he's all about throwing shit up in the air and, disrupting everything but no, they, they were great.

Jessika: So good. Well, they, in episode three, they introduced me to the novel, the refrigerator monologues, which delves into the, the idea of women in comics being fridged or killed just for entertainment sake, or to drive a plot narrative, or to make the, the main hero sad, or, basically as a plot tool and the refrigerator monologues delves into it as first-person accounts of female superheroes and how they had been used. And I went and listened to it because you can find it. I kept it on hooplah actually. So I listened to it for free and it was an audiobook. 

It was very, very good. And he talked about them not having autonomy or storylines of their own. it got me thinking about the way that we write characters and who we are allowed to succeed in [01:05:00] any given situation. I don't know, I just, I highly recommend this book and I highly recommend listening to Bitches on Comics because they have got me just like thinking about shit. 

Mike: Yeah, you and I should talk about a Hawk and Dove from DC in the 1980s and how they just did the most egregious fringing of Dove in a 1991 crossover in a way that was really bad. it's one of those things where I still talk about it. I've been talking about it for 20 years because it's so wild.

Jessika: Man. Well.I guess we'll have a really uplifting conversation about that later. I'm sure I'm going to have no zero opinions about that. 

Mike: No.

Jessika: I tell you, I commit now. No opinions. I can't commit to that. Everyone knows I'm crossing my fingers behind the camera here. Oh, so everyone listened to bitches on comics.They're amazing. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: so Yeah. that's, that's it for my, my wrinkles. 

Mike: Speaking as a mediocre white guy, it's a fucking great [01:06:00] podcast. my opinion should matter 0% in this, but it's a really good show. And even if you're one of those people where you're like, I don't know, give it a shot. It’s great..

Jessika: Seriously. Give it a shot. All right. Well, we catch you in two weeks where we will have another episode. 

Mike: Oh, fuck. I should probably do some research. Shouldn't I?

Jessika: Oh, yeah, that is your episode. We kind of do these on an, every other kind of a situation. Someone needs to fill Mike in on how we do this. 

Mike: All right. Look, I was never a good student. Why do you think I spent ten years in college?

Jessika: Oh, no shit. I knew I shouldn't have done a group project. Well, folks until then we'll see it in the stacks. 

Mike: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us. transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessica [01:07:00] Frasier, me, and Mike Thompson. Written by Jessica Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from freemium beat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by Lookmomdraws on Instagram. 

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to 10 cent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is Tencenttakes. Jessika is Jessikawitha. And Jessika is spelled with a K and Mike is vansau., V a N a U

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you live. 

Mike: stay safe out [01:08:00] there.

Jessika: And support your local comic shop, 

What happens when you mix pulp noire narrative devices, anthropomorphic fish, and the male gaze? You get Fish Police, one of the strangest indy comics to ever hit the 1980s. 

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Transcripts are coming soon! We're in the process of putting together a new site, which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

Just because they're beloved brands from the 1980s doesn't mean they're not in the dollar bins! Today we're talking about Transformers/Back to the Future and TMNT: The Armageddon Game. 

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Get hyped! Our new site is almost done and we'll have which will have a dedicated transcripts section. 

This week, we're launching towards the stars so we can see brave new worlds and commit all sorts of cosmic crimes alongside James Bolivar diGriz, AKA "The Stainless Steel Rat." This collection of British comics from the same writer who gave us Soylent Green was a shockingly fun read. 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

References: 

• Wikipedia articles for Harry Harrison and The Stainless Steel Rat Series
• https://www.fantasticfiction.com/h/harry-harrison/stainless-steel-rat/
• https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3531/return-stainless-steel-rat

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

This week we're diving into the spooky side of the season with a look at holiday horror comics!

From twisted holiday tales to eerie creepy conspiracies we're unwrapping the dark side of the holidays with Some Strange Disturbances: A Cold Winter's Eve and The X-Files!

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/)

It's time for another couple of Dollar Bin Discoveries! Today, the topic is "Obscure Fantasy." Jessika picked up Earthlore: Reign of the Dragon Lord, while Mike snagged Krey! 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Today we're exploring DC's 1979 comic World of Krypton, which has the distinction of being the first comic book miniseries. But it's an extra special tour because the book's author, Paul Kupperberg, is our tour guide! Come for the sci-fi zaniness, stay for Paul's stories about DC in the 70s and 80s. 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Paul Kupperberg Contact Info: 

Twitter: @PaulKupperberg Web: https://www.paulkupperberg.net/shop-1 

Howdy pardner. This week, we're hanging out in the saloon and checking out some Western comics!

Mike brought the Mad Max-esque Hex #1 to the table, while Jessika picked up the classic Ringo Kid #7.

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

How many times have you come across a weird promotional/giveaway comic when pawing through the dollar bins? This week, we're shining a spotlight on these oft-overlooked books: Mike is talking about the Kellogg's Ozzie Smith: The Kid Who Could, while Jessika is cackling as she describes Archie's Ham Radio Adventure! 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

We're getting all dolled up and checking out some books worthy of the runway. For this week's fashion-themed Dollar Bin Discovery, we're looking at Models, Inc 1 and Fashion In Action's Summer Special! 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

It's time to expand (or shrink) our horizons and discuss Comics of Unusual Size. Mike picked up Captain America Meets the Asthma Monster and Jessika's talking about Yikes! no. 1

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Hold onto your drugs and strap into your time machines! We're going all the way back to the early 1970s (and then jumping back to the 2020s later) for this week's comic: The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers!----more----

Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Satisfy your sweet tooth and then slap on some stamps! This week we're checking out the mail-away comics Marvel put out as part of a marketing campaign with several candy brands in the 1990s! 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

We're checking out some superhero crossovers this week and talking about special team-up issues we found in the dollar bins. Jessika's coming to the table with Tomb Raider/Witchblade and Mike's telling us about Witchblade / Aliens / The Darkness / Predator: Mindhunter.

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

February isn't over yet, which means there's (probably) still romance in the air! So this week's Dollar Bin Discovery theme is "Unlikely Couples." Somehow, Mike and Jessika both picked up Top Cow/Marvel crossovers: Silver Surfer/Weapon Zero and Witchblade/Wolverine. They're not good! Surprise!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

It's December, which means it's officially Holiday Season! We're kicking the new month off with some comics that teach us all the true meaning of Christmas: unhinged dollar bin comics!

Mike found the Generation X Holiday Special and Jessika picked up the DCU Holiday Special 2010. 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/)

What happens when you're a comics publisher in the 80s and don't understand that Mickey Mouse isn't in the public domain yet? Well, you wind up with The Uncensored Mouse. 

----more----For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Did you know September is Bi Pride Month? That means it's time for us to scope out some Dollar Bin Discoveries featuring proud bi characters!

Jessika scoped out Old Lady Harley 3 while Mike read Hellblazer 51, two DC comics featuring two very different forms of representation!

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Let's go for some ride-alongs on this week's Dollar Bin Discoveries and talk about police-themed comics! Mike picked up the first issue of Darkminds, a sci-fi noir detective story with anime aesthetics. Jessika, meanwhile, is checking out the first issue of DC's adaptation of the 1980s cartoon, COPS!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Do you love freedom? Do you love it almost as much as the sweet, sweet taste of Bubble Drink? Well, good news! This week, we're talking about the dystopian sci-fi police story Justice Warriors with the comic's creators Matt Bors and Ben Clarkson!

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Special thanks to Will Robson for coming on this episode! He's an absolute delight and you should follow him everywhere: 

• Matt's Instagram @mattbors
• Ben's Instagram @benclarkson1000000
• Matt's Twitter @mattbors
• Ben's Twitter @benclarkson
• Matt's website: https://www.mattbors.com/ 
• Ben's website: https://thebenclarkson.com/ 

You can also purchase Justice Warriors here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Justice-Warriors/Matt-Bors/JUSTICE-WARRIORS/9781952090226 

Let's do some graverobbing! This week we're digging up Mort the Dead Teenager, one of the strangest comics Marvel ever put out in the 1990s. Joining us to talk about the book is zombie expert and comic creator Will Robson!

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Special thanks to Will Robson for coming on this episode! He's an absolute delight and you should follow him everywhere: 

• Instagram @robsonink
• Twitter @robsonink
• Facebook @robsonink
• Patreon @willrobson 

You should also check out his comics imprint, Speech Comics!

It's the episode Mike's wanted to record ever since we started the podcast! This week we're looking at Nightcat, Marvel's 1991 pop star who sings like she's straight out of 1986!

We're looking at both the comic and the album accompanying it, as well as talking about why the project might've failed to take off with fans. 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Welcome back to Dollar Bin Discoveries! Today, Mike and Jessika managed to both bring a couple of books published by Image Comics to the Table. Mike is talking about one of the company's earliest comics (Shadowhawk II #2), while Jessika has one of its most recent (Starhenge). 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

We're traveling back to the Bronze Age for today's Dollar Bin Discoveries, as we're chatting with celebrated Bronze Age creator Paul Kupperberg! Not only do we talk about some wild comics from decades past, but we get to hear about what it was like working at DC comics in that era. 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Paul Kupperberg Contact Info: 

Twitter: @PaulKupperberg Web: https://www.paulkupperberg.net/shop-1 

Let's go back. Back to a simpler time. A time when brand-name sugary cereals were required for quality sleepovers. A time... of Saturday Morning Cartoons. 

Joining us this week is amazing comics scribe David M. Booher! Not only is he a connoisseur of quality kids' comics, but he also has a new book of his own out! And he's telling us all about it!

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If you'd like to support David's new comic, head on over to Zoop and add all the things to your cart: https://zoop.gg/c/thefeeding 

Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes David M. Booher's social links: 

Instagram: @davidmbooher Twitter: @davidbooher

In honor of Halloween this week, we picked up some spooktacular comic booOOooOoks in the dollar bins!

Jessika read the creepy and fantastical adaptation of Edgar Allen Poe's Conqueror Worm. Mike... well, he picked up the 90s Malibu comic Lord Pumpkin. 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Let's talk about Dakota North: comic book badass, model, and private eye. Joining us to discuss what is arguably the best female-starring miniseries from Marvel in the 80s is fellow comic nerd and author Dr. Gordon Schmidt!

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Gordon is awesome! You should follow him and support his book: 

• Leaders Assemble: Leadership in the MCU (Amazon)
• Twitter: iopsychology

For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Nearly 20 years after Spellbound, Marvel put out another miniseries featuring new magical heroes: Spellbinders. Like Spellbound, it never really caught on with readers. Unlike Spellobund, Mike and Jessika really enjoyed this story and wouldn't mind seeing more of it. 

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

It's time to throw on some comfy sweats, grab your favorite beverage, and burrow under your favorite blanket because we're talking about cozycore comics! Mike picked up Superman Meets the Quick Bunny, while Jessika snuggled up to Star Wars: Ewoks!

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Are these women powerful enough to shatter expectations? We'll find out! In the last Dollar Bin Discoveries of the year, we're checking out comics focused on "Strong" female characters. Jessika read Elektra: Root of Evil #3 and Mike checked out Valeria the She-Bat #1!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Who's ready for a sensitive, nuanced discussion about healthy body imagery? Too bad. We're talking about Kid Cannibal this week.

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

What happens when you really want to put Godzilla in your comic but don't have the rights anymore? Well, if you're Marvel, you have Iron Man fight a knockoff kaiju. Buckle up, folks! We brought in Godzilla expert Nick Marino to talk about this arc, and it's an absolute blast.

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Special thanks to Nick Marino for coming on this episode! He's an absolute delight and you should follow him everywhere: 

• Instagram @nickmarinoart
• Tumblr @nickmarino
• LinkedIn @nickmarino
• Twitter @nickmarino
• Bluesky @nickmarino
• Threads @nickmarinoart
• Comic Vine - Goodreads
• Amazon Author Profile

For this week's Dollar Bin Discovery, the theme is "breakouts." 

Jessika picked out Rogue #2, because it was the first time the X-man got a solo comic. Mike decided to look at the X-Men Stridex issue... because zits. 

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Did you know that Smokey Bear had a comic book? Have you ever heard of Cat-Man and his sidekick, Kitten? These are two of the most wholesome comics we've ever come across in the dollar bins... It's a feel-good episode, for once!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

This week we're journeying to Earth-148611 (AKA Marvel's New Universe), taking a look at Psi-Force (AKA the teen superhero mash-up of New Mutants and Captain Planet), and talking about the comic with the man who wrote the majority of the series (AKA Fabian Nicieza). Get ready for an insider scoop on the New Universe, Marvel in the 1980s, and a lot of fun Jessika cackles!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Fabian Nicieza's contact info: 

Twitter: @FabianNicieza Instagram: @fnicieza Web: https://www.fabiannicieza.com/ 

PS- Fabian's books are excellent. You should buy them through his website!

Ten Cent Takes contact info:

This week, we're looking at Marvel's "adult" thriller from the early 1990s, Sachs & Violens. Since one of the titular characters is a photographer from New York, we brought in an expert: Casey Fatchett, New York photographer and host of The Nerdy Photographer podcast!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

We're digging into some detective comics from the 80s! Mike and Jessika both came to the table with comics from 1986, but the stories are as different as can be. Mike found the second issue of Whodunnit? while Jessika picked up Dick Tracy 3-D!

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Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Ever wondered what happened when Marvel and Electronic Arts threw the rulebook out the window and introduced a whole new batch of imperfect villains? 

This week, we're diving into Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects, the comic series that brought us a cursed take on the Marvel Universe with some truly questionable character designs.

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For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes

Who else is ready to MIND PRIME? That’s right, we’re looking at Six From Sirius, the 1980s mystical sci-fi miniseries (originally) from Marvel. This comic has everything: Robot men disguised as people, magical space elders, and even some mild nudity.----more----

Our new site is live! For the transcript of this episode, head over to https://www.tencenttakes.com/transcripts.  

Email: tencenttakes@gmail.com Twitter: @Tencenttakes Instagram: @Tencenttakes Facebook: /Tencenttakes Mastodon: retro.pizza/@tencenttakes Our banner art is original work by Sarah Frank  (https://www.lookmomdraws.com/) Hive: Tencenttakes