Talking Moves (Greenwich Dance)

In this episode we talk to Jeanefer Jean-Charles and Lou Cope about money matters.

Money is always an awkward thing to talk about and when what we do is what we love it can feel even harder. But as we navigate our way within a business where we are constantly having to put a price tag on either ourselves – consultancy or advice perhaps – or the artistic work we make, we have to get better at talking about and asking for money.

Jeanefer and Lou talk us through the way they think about themselves, the values they hold and express through their work and art as well as the value they place on themselves. Both share their secrets for pricing up their time - including useful tools and techniques from imaginary assistants to the use of real ones - day rates to annual budgeting. They talk about the benefits of having a portfolio freelance career with financial resilience in mind but also in the loneliness and isolation that comes when working alone or as a temporary guest in an established team.

Together we pondered value in its broader sense: in crediting, having our voices heard and being included. And of course in the drive to do an excellent job as, in a freelance world, we are only ever as good as the last one...

Recording date: Wednesday 17 February 2021

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode we talk to Charlotte Edmonds and Andrew Gardiner about resilience.

In this episode we talk to Alesandra Seutin and Temujin Gill about making work with young people.

With this series we have been particularly interested in delving into choreographic approaches to different types of work – we have looked at work outdoors, for families, for digital technologies. But what happens when your cast are all under 25? How do choreographers harness that young potential, amplify the stories they want to tell and create work that is relevant to young people of today? And once made… who comes to see it?

Alesandra and Temujin kicked us off by reflecting upon their own dance journeys and why, as young people themselves, dance spoke to them. Alesandra, as Guest Artistic Director of the National Youth Dance Company 2020-21, (a baton she took from previous AD Russell Maliphant during the pandemic) talked us through her approach to creating work using a series of Zoom residencies with a cohort of dancers from all over the country. Temujin spoke about his own recent process of creating a choreographic framework for young people with his company Grounded Movement, which is now available on the ArtsUnboxed platform for others to use and talked through his exploration of a concept he describes as ‘cultural amnesia’.

Both share very practical tools and techniques for drawing out the stories and personalities of the dancers they work with and how they celebrate differing technical abilities, dance styles and experiences. They each shared ideas for warm-ups and ice breakers, task activities and their music choices and reflected on how, indeed if, their choreographic process differs any from how they work with professionals.

We talk about the hole Covid has blown into the lives of this generation of young people and how the action of showing that we genuinely believe in them: in their abilities, their stories and their values, is going some way to repairing some of the tissue damage Covid has brought about.

Finally, we consider the audience for the work and whether we imagine it being enjoyed by a wider community than simply families and friends.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 6 May 2021

In this special episode, we talk to two artistic directors about the current funding crisis ravaging our sector.

Back in May, when the Greenwich Dance team was having funding applications repeatedly rejected, we were relieved to see renowned theatre director Nicholas Hytner's Guardian article "The arts in Britain are teetering on the brink. Here's my plan to save them". Here at last someone was talking about the dire situation the arts are in and, just as importantly, offering up with ideas about how to do something about it.

And it turns out someone else had also been thinking constructively about arts funding models. Way back in 2020, Tarek Iskander, Artistic Director of Battersea Arts Centre, proposed a National Arts Service, using his experience of working in the NHS as a starting point.

As we begin to see a general election on the horizon and the possibility of a new government starts to feel possible, we invited them both to talk us through their intriguing provocations. We ask at this time, when we are emerging from a pandemic, suffering the effects of a cost of living crisis and dealing with the repercussions of Brexit, how do we inject more funding into the cracks appearing in the arts? And as we navigate our own precarious funding situation, we ask if not now – when?

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 19 July 2023

In this episode, we talk to Frauke Requardt and Luca Silvestrini about making work for the outdoors.

Artists have long been making work to animate places and spaces and there is much for them to consider when they do. The work has to sit within the setting, engage with passersby who perhaps are not expecting, or even asking, to be engaged with. But with the pandemic having closed theatres down for the best part of 2020 and now into 2021, many artists and venues are looking to the outdoors as part of our road to recovery.

Frauke and Luca reflect back on over 15 years of making work for the outdoors and talk about the differences in both developing work for particular spaces as well as touring with pop-up sets and ‘venues’. They speak about the experiences of the audience member – of drawing them into the narrative without having the tools at their disposal such as dimming lights and swishing curtains which are often used to create the atmosphere for the performance within traditional theatre settings. They talk about the audience who buy a ticket for and choose to see work in non-theatrical settings and those that stumble across it – and how both the performers and the choreographer prepare for those eventualities.

Coincidentally at time of recording, both artists were about to go into the studio the very next week to start work on new outdoor productions. Each gave us a sneak preview of what we can expect from their exciting new shows… and shared with us their own processes of making work in a pandemic for a world tentatively emerging from it.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 3 March 2021

In this episode we talk to Cath James and Kenneth Olumuyiwa Tharp CBE about their transition from stage to management.

This particular topic was inspired by a listener, Laura, who got in touch to ask for some support as she sought to make a similar career change. She felt frustrated as she navigated the unfamiliar terminology, high expectations (and low pay) of a sector she knew so well from one angle but less well from another. Did she really, she asked, need to start right back at the beginning?

Kenneth and Cath both agreed that life experience and the ability to recognise and seize an opportunity when it arises have been just as valuable as any training they have undertaken. They each walk us through their inspirational journeys from esteemed company dancers to senior management and consider the point upon which they decided to hang up their dancing shoes for good. They share experiences of creating roles for themselves along the way – in the establishing of new services or supporting friends with touring - rather than waiting for roles to present themselves. They share anecdotes of when their performance skills have come into play and considered how being a performer has shaped who they are as a leader today.

Both talk so very honestly about the skills they had to learn… quickly… and whether their impressive performance CVs’s added kudos or doubt from the sector around them.

Recording date: Wednesday 24 February 2021

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode, we talk to Rosie Heafford and Neus Gil Cortés about making accessible work.  

Today, there probably isn’t a company or organisation that would say they didn’t want to make accessible work, and yet there are still people excluded from it: be they performers, collaborators or audiences. We talk to two artists about their approaches to making work accessible and get some tips about how we as a sector might do this better. 

We begin by asking our guests to talk a bit more about the work that they do before jumping right in to discuss the almost ‘buzzword’ accessibility. What does the word accessible really mean within our art form?  

We acknowledge that it is really difficult, if not impossible to create work that’s accessible for everybody and hear about two very different approaches and pieces of work that Rosie and Neus have made as artistic directors and choreographers.  

We move on to discuss the audience experience – how do you remove barriers and make the work exciting for all? We talk about different approaches of making with audience members being part of the process from the start, and how creating different versions of the same work gives audiences choices in what, and how they would like to experience it. 

Naturally, the conversation reflects on the pandemic and how practices for creating had to change in the studio. We discuss how this allowed for a more collaborative process and even opened new doors to creating work for the digital stage. 

We speak about the importance of describing what the experience is going to be like for audiences, listening to what people need and the importance of taking the onus to make needs clear away from disabled people. 

And finally, we talk about what it means to be a disabled leader, what it means to the work and how it affects fellow collaborators and audiences. 

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Friday 22 April 2022

In this episode we talk to Rhiannon Faith and Ben Duke about their experiences of conceiving and creating dance films and we ask them, with the benefit of some experience and hindsight, how they are now approaching the use of technology and the digital experience as they conceive their next work.

We discuss the uncanny similarity between the themes at the core of Rhiannon’s ready-to-tour show Drowntown and the filmed prologue Drowntown Lockdown she ended up making - and she lets us into a trade secret about how to get the best shots using apparatus borrowed from her 4 month old’s nursery! Ben confessed to wondering ‘what am I and what is this thing I do without an audience?’ and admitted feeling reluctant to start making digital dance until the need to orchestrate pressure and deadlines to break the inertia of lockdown propelled him back into creation mode.

Together they discuss whether the digital outputs they created could replace the live experience, whether they were able to reach the kinds of audiences they aim to touch with their live work, the shift as we curate considered audience experiences rather than chase audience numbers and how we all, now, simply feel like beginners.

Recording date: 2 November 2020

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode we talk to Avatâra Ayuso and Anna Williams about women and dance.

Within an overwhelmingly female profession, it still feels largely led by men particularly in creative and managerial roles. How has this come about and most importantly… what can we do about it?

We discuss how being a woman has shaped Avatâra and Anna’s own careers and those of other women they see, we discuss the work both of them are doing through their initiatives and teaching programmes and the mechanisms they use to empower young female dancers. Avatâra observes that women are more often than not infantalised (which comes up again and again as we unpick the topic through the discussion) and Anna discusses the careful use of language as she works with young and impressionable dancers.

Together we contemplate the unfairness of the dance sector gender make-up and drill down into why achieving a gender balance really matters. Avatâra draws upon years of study and reflection – gathering case studies from powerful dancing women across the world and Anna contemplates the hierarchical nature of the balletic institutions and together we ponder whether those companies have in a way become a metaphor of the sector – lines of excellently trained female corp de ballet, some highlighted male soloists and the choreographic genius at the top.

The three of us reflect on what stands in the way for women and predictably the subject of parenthood, along with the impact that Covid has had and the learning we might take from this past year about how we could do things differently. Together we reflect upon whether there are changes to make in ourselves which could progress the movement, alongside thinking about the changes we hope that others might look to make.

Finally we reflect upon some of the recommendations coming out of the recent Women in Theatre Forum Report such as quotas and training, and discuss whether these really are the tools we need for change.

In this episode we talk to Ingrid Molinos and Tory East about running a youth dance company during a global pandemic. They tell us about the work their companies, Young Amici and Hampshire Youth Dance respectively, would ordinarily do and how this has changed over the course of 2020. We discuss how young people reacted to their cancelled performances and auditions and the ways in which they have adapted, successfully or unsuccessfully, to online dancing… and we delve into the ways they have been able not just to train, but to live up to their intention of being ‘performance companies’ whilst being restricted to a digital output.

Ingrid talks about the ways in which she has tried to rebuild an inclusive environment for her young people and their families online and her summer school which had sold out. Tory reflects on the barrier Zoom put between them. They both reflect upon the race to upskill digitally in order to support their young dancers, the opportunity presented by One Dance UK through their U.Dance digital festival and the ways in which both they and their young people have come to appreciate just how much they can all achieve.

Together they discuss mental health, the vocational journey, leadership and whether these young people will ever want to make another film again!

Recording date: 6 October 2020

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode, we talk to Isaac Ouro-Gnao and Donald Hutera about the role of Feedback & Criticism.

Every artist making work and putting it out there into the world is inviting an opinion of some kind: be that from their immediate collaborators, their performers, the raised eyebrow of a parent or mentor, their audience, or critics. Feedback is so useful to the artistic process, but it’s hard to take at times. And perhaps also, hard to give. In this episode we talk to two artists to find out a bit more about the art of critique, its relevance today and how we can, perhaps as an industry, do it better.

Our guests have a foot in both camps – working as artists but also as published journalists. So as people of words we start off by defining some… analysing the words ‘review’, ‘feedback’ and ‘criticism’ and establishing whether they were interchangeable or if there were notable differences. We decide that perhaps feedback is for artists and reviews serve as documentation or for audience information. It was the word criticism everyone feels a little more uncomfortable with…

Donald and Isaac both share instances where they had felt criticised in print, and how they dealt with conflicting opinions. We talk about ethics: permission, recognising objectivity is impossible, that there is no right or wrong (only opinion) and that sometimes feedback (and reviews) are not actually wanted. We conclude that the hunger to know more about artists and their work and dialogue are both key to useful criticism.

The subject of diversity of voices threads its way through our conversation and we discuss ways we might better achieve a multiplicity of voices within the industry of dance journalism that is in itself diminishing.

But perhaps most importantly we talk about responsibility – and what those who have a voice can do to shine the spotlight and give over some space to voices that are lesser heard.

You may like to dip into the following articles before or after you listen…

The Stage feature: Race and Theatre Criticism We Need Critical Change

The Stage feature: Race and Theatre Criticism On Writing about Race Equity’s Recommendations for Theatre Critics

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 21 July 2021

Greenwich Dance presents Talking Moves, the brand-new podcast where artists come together to share practice, experience and ideas.

Designed for dance professionals, we put artists centre stage, upfront, in the spotlight, at the microphone so they can talk about the ideas and issues that move them.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Hosted and produced by Melanie Precious
Produced and edited by Carmel Smith
With production and marketing support by Lucy White

Talking Moves is supported by Arts Council England

In this episode we talk to Claire Cunningham and Jorge Crecis about choreographic approaches.

The life of a choreographer is a complex one and on this podcast the reliance artists have on portfolio careers has come up in conversation a number of times. So we invited two inspirational and entrepreneurial choreographers to come and talk to us who have both branched out into a myriad of directions and in doing so forged their own unique aesthetic, process and mindset.

We begin by discussing the breadth of careers both Claire and Jorge have enjoyed and as part of that discussion find out a bit more about the things that make them tick, how they get ideas and most importantly how they record and remember them given that dance is sometimes a hard thing to pin down.

Jorge and Claire then talk about aesthetic and how that has, for both of them, become a by-product of a much deeper process of the making journey. We reflect upon Jorge’s work and whether or not that stretches people to their limits and he makes the ever so valid point that whilst it does, it does so within a container of safety. This is echoed by Claire who also looks imaginatively at her own body and her ‘four feet’ (referring to her body and crutches) and the way in which she works with those crutches in a process of care and careful attention.

Both have, coincidently, made works called 12 (Twelve) and so we use those works to delve deeper into the processes used in making them. For Claire this was a rare opportunity to work with other dancers, rather than as solo work, and she shares the thoughtful ways in which she approached the making of that work with both disabled and non-disabled dancers. Interestingly we discover that they both use play, rules and problem solving to create structures within which to make the works they make.

Looking beyond the making process, we then explore other areas of the dance landscape that they inhabit… we talk about Claire’s Choreography of Care symposium planned for next year and Jorge’s methodology Towards Vivencia which supports dancers to stay at peak performance which can now be accessed online.

Finally we touch upon the big ideas that move them, the imprint they want to leave on the world and the questions they have of it.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 29 April 2021

In this episode, we talk to Deborah Light and Tom Hobden about building audiences for your work.

We make art for people – and if we have no audience, what is the reason for the work? How do we then bring audiences to the work? How do we introduce dance to people who haven’t had an opportunity to discover it? And what do we want of them other than to be spectators?

We begin by asking our guests more about their work and the work itself – Deborah making work in Wales with the company Light, Ladd and Emberton as well as being an independent maker and discussing the part installation, – part dance performance Seeds & Bones which incorporates both personal as well as audience stories.

We then move on to discussing the work of UNIT – where Tom Hobden is artistic director and how the pandemic shifted the very local audience to one that is online and from everywhere. We speak about how UNIT is making dance for the “everyday people” and what that means.

A big question that comes up is – what comes first? Do we make work with our audiences in mind, or do our audiences come to our work? We discuss the need to “make things”, regardless of the outcome and the audience participation, and how as makers we need to practice making things without the pressure of who will see it and who will like it.

We discuss how we invite and allow our audiences to participate in the work, and talk about a very special moment being one of a very few number of people experiencing a show.

Finally, we discuss whether everyone does want to dance or take part in dancing – is it for everyone? And who decides what dance is, and what dance isn’t?

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Tuesday 22 March 2022

In this episode we talk to Zoie Golding and Anthony Missen about the ways in which artists make a difference and the metrics we measure this by.

Inspired by the book, The Art of Relevance, by museum director Nina Simon, Melanie asks her guests why their work matters and to whom. They discuss ‘insiders’ – their loyal curators, artists, audience and participants who ‘get them’. And the 'outsiders' – people who may not know their work is out there and whom they strive to reach. Zoie also reflects on the outsiders who are inside – the ones who are close to us who also struggle to ‘get’ what we do…

We talk about permission and ethics and the trap so many of us fall into of ‘crashing’ into communities uninvited. Anthony and Zoie both reflect upon the numerous times they have needed to throw their lesson plans away and read the room and the permission they had to give themselves to do this. Anthony suggests that by evaluation we simply mean conversation and we discuss how easy this is to enable post-performance.

Finally, we ponder whether metrics of success, so often number driven, have changed at all in response to the crisis we are all living through now.

Recording date: Friday 29 January 2021

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode, we talk to Katie Serridge and Nafisah Baba about Breaking Through.

This episode was put together at Katie’s request, who took the initiative and emailed us offering to talk about the challenges she has been presented with as a young artist trying to break into an industry that effectively shut down only minutes after her graduation. Nafisah Baba, BBC Young Dancer 2017, joins us to share her observations of the world of work thus far.

We start off by discussing how Katie and Nafisah came to dance, the courses and training they embarked upon to prepare them for the industry and the opportunities they had to start making or performing in work pre-Covid. We reflect back on lockdown 1.0 and how it felt for them both returning to childhood bedrooms as adults.

Most performers find a need to supplement their earnings with what Nafisah described as a ‘Muggle job’ and Katie talks about how for her these dried up as cafes and theatres closed. We discuss how they now think about ‘training’ which might once have meant daily class but is now weighted towards the maintenance of strong and positive mental health. We talk about resilience, networking, the pleasures and pitfalls of social media and how best to manage it.

But these are two remarkable young women and, presented with the challenge of a global pandemic, they both set about finding creative ways to manage. Both are already making their mark on the world through their art, are politically and globally aware and have voices that are starting to be heard. Katie, along with a collective she formed at Laban, has already begun making films and sharing these in festivals and Nafisah talked about how she has enjoyed experiences of working with artists such as Akram Khan who have inspired her to break away from years of codified training.

This is no ‘woe-is-me’ episode. This is an episode filled with hope, love, care and possibility. Yes, we talk about what the industry is demanding of young dancers right now but most excitingly we talk about how these young dancers are starting to push back against that expectation and make changes in a world that, let’s be honest, is ready for the shake-up.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 5 August 2021

In this episode, we talk to Annie Hanauer and Erion Kruja about Creating an Identity.

For many dancers it’s a dream to secure a long term contract within a prestigious dance company, but there comes a time when it just feels right to move on. So what happens when you fly that nest – leaving the safety of a regular wage, daily class, regular performance opportunities and the companionship of like-minded company members? How do you build that support infrastructure for yourself – at the same time as having to find the funding, secure commissions, and rebrand as an independent?

We start off by finding out more about life with Candoco (from Annie) and with Hofesh Shechter Company (from Erion) and how they came to make the decision to leave. We discuss the support infrastructure and development opportunities they had whilst still a member of the company and what that looks like now that they are making work independently.

We talk a bit about the type of work a body wants to make when it has been a tool for other choreographers for so long and both of our guests offer suggestions for what’s needed to better develop and support independent dance makers of today. As we very often do, we talk about language definitions and discuss the feeling of living across both an ‘emerging’ and ‘established’ description. We talk about the implied hierarchy of dancers and choreographers (the inaccurate expectation that everyone wants to ‘graduate’ to becoming a maker) and this leads us onto broader discussions about labelling where Annie shares the frustrations she experiences of being boxed up into the ‘disabled dancer’ category, and what it’s taking for her to mentally and physically break out of that box. Annie sent us some further thoughts on the subject – don’t miss her PS at the end of the episode.

And finally, we talk about the differences between the offer here in the UK and internationally and what we can be doing as dance organisations to better support the lifeblood of our art form.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Friday 23 July 2021

In this episode we talk to Marla King and Adam Benjamin about environmental responsibility.

Many of us have long recognised our role in protecting the planet but perhaps the last two years of the pandemic – when we lived in our parks and gardens, saw our skies fill with birdsong and our roads quieten – has unlocked a willingness for more of us to take action. But what does action look like for our sector?

We start off by discussing what had changed for us in the past few years, how we came to notice our damaging behaviours (such as extensive travel) and how the climate crisis has intensified in urgency. We discuss social justice within this and how everyone is not equally responsible. We reflect upon the pressures on the younger generation of dancer who seem to be socially and environmentally aware (in ways we weren’t years ago) but who cannot be held solely responsible for evoking change. We also reflect on the fact that the training Marla and other dancers of her generation have had, even recently, has seemed to sidestep any references to environmental responsibility as they prepared for dancing careers.

We find out about Adam’s ecological project The Dancer’s Forest and how Marla entrepreneurially trained to be a carbon literacy trainer alongside starting a podcast A Little Bit of Lagom. In fact, business and environmental responsibility overlap a few times as we contemplate what a world might look like if we conducted our dancing business in hyperlocal settings rather than trying to ‘tour the world’ and how casting changes if the criteria of ‘local’ is put before other aspects.

And finally, we reflect on the changes we could make as individuals and as a sector, how wellbeing is interlinked with environmental awareness and how technologies can offer some solutions (but also contribute to more problems we have yet to fully unpick…)

A conversation which raises more questions than giving answers perhaps, and a starting point as we all reflect on how we can all work greener.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 20 April 2022

In this episode, we talk to Valerie Ebuwa and Kwesi Johnson about making positive change.

Valerie Ebuwa sets about to ‘make shit happen’. She has written articles about ‘how to grow wings’ and ‘knowing your aesthetic’ and has urged readers of her blog to ‘lead with your strongest foot to ensure a solid journey to the skies’. Kwesi Johnson believes creativity and innovation are the highest uses of intelligence. “It begins as a thought and becomes reality, that is the power of imagination and desire,” he says.

So this was always going to be an enlightening conversation! We start off, as we often do, by finding out how their dancing journeys began and we probe Valerie more about why she thought her late start (18 years old) was “perfect timing”.

Both artists urge anyone engaging with them – either through their published writing and journalism (Valerie) or mentoring and consulting (Kwesi) – to ask deep questions of themselves. In doing so they both respectively believe you can ‘unleash your creative genius’ and so we dig deeper: discovering more about the ways they do this for themselves and others and the gifts learning about yourself in this way can bring. Both Kwesi and Valerie are entrepreneurial thinkers and doers and busily forging new ways of working creatively for themselves across multiple genres and art forms. We talk about their innovative projects and initiatives past and present, their perceptions of the funding model and its limitations and (best of all) their suggestions about how artists can break themselves free.

Both are unafraid of calling out behaviours. Valerie was recently published in The Stage, challenging the role of the critic and the generalisations often made when writing about dancers of colour. And Kwesi, way back in 2003, was pioneering hip hop dance theatre and putting people straight about their (often misguided) perceptions of it. In fact, Kwesi has long been a trailblazer and we find out a little more about his exploration of digital technology for dance classes which he investigated, not during the pandemic as the rest of us did, but back in 2012!

Finally, we talk about problem-solving and the essential but often under-valued role artists have in building a better functioning (economic as well as creative) world.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 12 May 2022

Host recorded at Creative Kin studios

In this episode we talk to John Darvell and Emma Houston about the challenges of staying creative through Covid. Have they relished the opportunity to rethink their work amidst changing social behaviours? Or been weighed down by the pressures of diminished finances and cancelled contracts?

Both John and Emma talk about their projects going ‘Pete Tong’ and how they then had to figure out, in the name of self-care, what was important. John talks of his responsibility to his community and the need to begin online classes, and Emma speaks about her harrowing experience of getting Covid herself and how she had to respect her body and its capabilities as she recovered from that.

Together they discuss managing anxiety, funding rejections, the need to learn new skills and ‘positive rage’ but the episode finishes on a high as they consider the renewed sense of vigour they each now have through new connections, new conversations and new possibilities.

Download transcript

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Follow Greenwich Dance on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.

In this episode we talk to Katie Green and Ivan Blackstock about the ways in which they have been breaking from the conventional and working in exciting new ways… creating new partnerships, new audiences and new platforms for their work. Has their need to challenge the status quo been conscious and deliberate or simply accidental?

Ivan talks about his love and admiration for the music, fashion and technology industries and how these have opened his eyes to a new way of being and working, and Katie talks of the rich source of choreographic stimuli working with museums and heritage has given her. They both reflect on the things that have made them who they are and the challenges they have encountered along the way – not fitting the aesthetic, doors shutting, imposter syndrome and language barriers… but also enthuse about the opportunities they have seized within new worlds which have given them both the ability to keep creating.

Together they discuss the skills needed to create relationships, the care and consideration they give their colleagues and friends, audiences and themselves and the desperate need to adapt to survive. Now more than ever.

Recording date: 25 September 2020

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

As dancers we often train in streams of dance genres – often there are expected routes mapped out for us and aesthetics we are expected to achieve. It’s therefore refreshing to find artists whose work transcends those divides, fuses aspects of styles together to make new aesthetics, new vocabulary. What does that mean in terms of training for themselves, as well as making work, working with dancers who may not have the same experiences?

We begin by asking our guests how they came to find dance – both Kamala and Harriet mention their mothers and how they facilitated their first steps on their journeys. We discuss their training and how they came to build their experience across the genres of contemporary, ballroom, Bharatanatyam, acrobatics and contact improvisation.

We ask our guests why are they drawn to the styles in which they work, and how stepping away from the usual framing of genres and fusing other styles relates to their audiences. we find similarities that may not be obvious such as the constant flow and trust that is needed in both contact improvisation as well as ballroom – and how important the connection with your partner is.

We move on to discuss their own teaching practices and what they are looking for in dancers when they choreograph work. The importance of training is a huge part of any dancer and artists life and we discuss how they train across such different genres of dance.

Finally, we are intrigued to hear what’s next for our two artists on their journey working across genres.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundstöm, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Monday 28 March 2022

In this episode, we talk to Vicki Igbokwe and Shane Shambu about Celebrating Diversity with Dance.

The two artists we invited to take part in this episode each make extraordinary, distinct work using an original voice. We ask them about where their work takes its influence, how they have been able to make it, find audiences for it and how free they are to experiment with it.

We start off by exploring Vicki and Shane’s beginnings – discovering how they found dance and where and how they learned their craft. Then we touch upon the first of many similarities between these two inspirational artists – their three ‘e’s – empower, entertain and educate… and how these same values infiltrate into every decision they make about the work they craft and the people they aim to serve through the making of it.

I share my perspective as a white woman, watching Vicki’s The Head Wrap Diaries and Shane’s Confessions of Cockney Temple Dancer, and how I found myself gaining another perspective on the world. I ask our guests “is this intentional – are you trying to share an aspect of your cultural heritage? Or is there something else driving the telling of these stories?” The answer is complex and simple at the same time. Our guests tell stories about life as they see it and experience it. The want and need for the sector, myself included, to stereotype artists and ‘stamp’ their work with a label we think we understand is something that has to change if we are ever going to let artists be truly free to make the work inside them.

We talk about authenticity and freedom to explore… how free did Vicki and Shane feel to explore movement language and stories and how necessary or helpful is the concept of ‘authenticity’?

Finally, we talk about curiosity and conversation and the ways in which both artists float between cultural boundaries and expectations, how they draw the audience into their work and just how much they dislike the post-show talk!

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 22 September 2021

In this episode, we talk to Charlotte Vincent and Robert Clark about parenting in the arts.  

Becoming a parent changes the lives of all who do it, but artists often need to make huge decisions about how they will balance the responsibility of caring alongside a profession that requires touring, weekend and evening work and situations where ‘WFH’ just can’t come into play. So how best to navigate these changes?  

We start off by finding out what Charlotte and Rob’s dancing lives had looked like pre-children and then probe a little deeper into the considerations that came to the fore, such as touring abroad as they took on caring responsibilities. Charlotte talks us through some of the policies her company has adopted to better support parents which have come out of the need to support her own family as well as those of her workforce. We talk about the various ’stages’ we go through as parents depending on whether children are pre-nursery or in school and how this might help or hinder our working schedules. Indeed the topic of scheduling is pertinent and we discuss how companies can better do this to support the needs of families. 

The effects of the pandemic come into so many of our conversations on this podcast and this one is no exception. We chuckle about video-bombing during those homeschooling periods but also reflect upon how parents have become more visible during the last few years, our nurturing responsibilities no longer kept so separate from our working lives.  We also compare some of the case studies in Vincent Dance Theatre’s report of 2009, A Dancers Perspective, to those of today and wondered whether we have made as much change as we would like…

The subject of power arises – between genders but also between organisations and freelances and how we can use our ’powers’, when and if we have them, as a force for much-needed change. We talk about speaking up about our responsibilities within employment negotiations, of organisations taking the time to find out about their employees’ infrastructures and support networks in order to understand what flexibility is there (or not there) and discuss the work that inspirational bodies in our sector such as Dance Mama and Parents & Carers In Performing Arts are doing. 

And finally, we reflect on the creativity being a parent can bring and the changes it has made to the choreographic and artistic approaches of both Charlotte and Rob.  

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Kajsa Sundström, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Friday 22 April 2022

In this episode we talk to Liv Lorent and Arthur Pita about creating dance for families.

Once upon a time, dance for children and families was perhaps seen as lightweight, if indeed it was seen at all. But pioneering leaders in the sector, such as Emma Gladstone and her children’s dance festival Offspring at The Place, set about to change that – spotlighting high quality work and the wonderful artists making it – and in doing so raising the status of this magical genre.

Liv and Arthur, both of whom meet on the Venn diagram when it comes to their imaginative use of traditional fairytales, discuss the careful choice of story and the way they relate that to lived experience as well as to reflect the complex society we live in. We talk about the artful balance of dark and light and how neither of them is scared to shy away from the sad or scary parts of a story but rather the faith they have in children to interpret this and see sad and happy as parts of life.

We talk about the creation process and the involvement, for Liv, of community casts within the research and development as well as the presentation of the show. Arthur and Liv both talk animatedly about the collaborative way in which they make the work alongside creatives such as dramaturgs, writers, designers and musicians and the importance of narrative and pace perhaps over and above choreography which oftentimes comes second and is layered upon this robust structure.

And we talked about audiences – discussing who this work is really for – adult or child? And whether it’s The Little Match Girl, or Ballo Arthur Pita, they have really come to see. This led us to muse upon whether digital tools and technology might offer the potential to widen access and strengthen the bonds between company and a (growing) audience.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Monday 26 April 2021

In this episode we talk to Tamsin Fitzgerald and Gary Clarke about the ‘business of dance’ and the way they have built a team of support around them.
And of course a business is all about the people…..

In this episode, we talk to Nancy Hirst and Dan Canham about Co-creating with Communities.

Building cultural communities is at the heart of Arts Council England’s Let’s Create strategy and for many organisations, this kind of work is at the very heart of what we try to do. But it’s not easy… it takes time, patience, diplomacy and care to do well. And sometimes, the funding and expectations of stakeholders around us, plus perhaps our own over-eager enthusiasm causes us to make mistakes. So we ask our guests to tell us more about how we might do this work better.

We start off with vocabulary… what and who do we mean by the all-encompassing word ‘community’ and indeed what do we mean by co-creation? None of us feel very comfortable with either terms but find ourselves using them anyway and so we explore the reasons why we do and the complexities that arise for us when we do.

We talk a lot about telling stories and the ethics of doing that, the juxtaposition of local stories linked to national conversations, of being authentic, of being of a place or an outsider to it and of finding a common purpose. We delve into Dan’s epic gig-like work Session which he undertook in partnership with Empire Sounds and Steppaz Performing Arts in Tottenham, and we look at the ways in which Nancy and her company Icon build theatre around local tales such as The Chatham Witch and The Silk of 1000 Spiders with her Medway communities.

Both Nancy and Dan share some of the tools they use, show us where some of the traps and pitfalls can lie, and muse on the complexity of this work which we all agree felt different to simply ‘seeking out stimuli’ and mining material. The issue of ethics comes up for us, as does legacy and how we can continue to support a process even after the final curtain on the show has come down.

And finally, we reflect on the joy – the moments where the stars align and the work comes together and the magic truly happens…

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Wednesday 29 September 2021

In this episode we talk to Maria Ghoumrassi and Wendy Steatham about the ways in which they have adapted their teaching to accommodate the need to be online.

They discuss their initial fears and approaches, the ways in which they have explored the functionality and played with the format, how they structure their classes: stripping back to fundamental technique or playing with open ended stimuli and the ways in which they have prioritised community and wellbeing. They drill down into some of the specifics such as camera off or on, break out rooms, playing with those ‘rectangles’, tackling the ‘delay’ as they count their dancers in and most importantly… how to deal with the rogue pet dog!

Together, Maria and Wendy muse thoughtfully about how this period may have changed us forever and what the dance class of tomorrow might look like.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode, we talk to Karthika Naïr and Eva Martinez about the role of dramaturgy.

An artist’s creation space is a rather special place to inhabit. It’s vibrant, exciting, tense sometimes nail-biting. And it always feels to me to be an honour to be there. But by the same token, it comes with much responsibility particularly if you are invited not as an onlooker but as a contributor. One role, increasingly in use within the creation process is the role of the dramaturg. But what exactly is this, how do you become one and what benefit can a dramaturg bring to an artistic process?

We start off by discussing what a dramaturg actually is and Karthika shares a clarifying analogy we here at Greenwich Dance will reuse again and again about an elephant…

Our guests have held over the expanse of their careers multiple roles within the creation process and Karthika and Eva clarify some distinctions between writers, producers, dramaturgs, dance scripters and librettists to help us understand the complexity of the work that goes on behind the scenes. We also discover a new word, fabulist, which again will be reused again and again.

We talk a lot about the creation space and the dynamic within, about permissions, boundaries, feedback and respecting both the process and the work itself as well as the collaborators who make it. We weave a basket with our threads of conversation as we touch upon trust and the ways trust can be built (particularly this past year in remote settings), about whether prior relationships need to be established (or not) and whether all artists or only those using narrative would benefit from dramaturgical support. And we discuss, as we often do, the use of language and whether the words ‘authority’ or ‘power’ are ever at play in these settings. Eva makes the point that she has been an activist within an institution for many years and Karthika states that she would never work with anyone she could not disagree with.

And finally, we talk about the importance of acknowledging the plurality of the creative team in crediting and the need to break away from the ‘primacy of the single narrative’, which is so often prevalent in the way that work is presented and marketed to audiences. As ever there seems so much more to discuss and dig into.

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Thursday 22 July 2021

In this episode we talk to Roswitha Chesher and Alexander Whitley about digital dance and technology.

Both started their careers with dance training – film maker and photographer Roswitha Chesher at Trinity Laban and choreographer Alexander Whitley at the Royal Ballet School – but they’ve both moved into exploring dance in different formats – on camera, screen and using digital technology.

Whilst it’s true to say that over the past year many of us have been on a crash course when it comes to digital and dance, in contrast these two artists have been working within the digital sphere for years and so we decided to invite them on to talk a little bit more about what it is that excites them and find out how we can all learn to explore and use digital technologies more effectively.

We begin by discussing the journey we have been on as a sector which has evolved pretty quickly from the kickstart reaction of many to share back-catalogue documentation to the kind of immersive experience offered recently by Rambert with Rooms. Given their familiarity of the digital space and their enviable access to high quality equipment we also probed a little into whether they themselves had felt creative during covid and how they had reacted either individually or as a company to the challenges of the past year.

Alex shares his interest in technologies such as virtual and augmented reality and the potential this is offering him and his company to explore new ways of making and presenting work. And Roswitha shares some of the lessons learnt from thirty years making dance on screen. She reflects upon how of late so much of the material she has been asked to work with has been made on the very small (mobile phone) screen. Together we reflect upon how the luxury so many of us experience of having this technology in our back pockets can be deployed creatively when used with thought, care and skill.

We talk about the ability to curate an environment when making theatrical work and how in digital this translates to much more nuanced experiences such as directing the focus and the eye. And we talk about the ways in which technology and dance on screen can be used in hybrid formats to create completely new cultural environments which are no longer as simple as a choice between theatre or TV…

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance Production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

Recording date: Tuesday 20 April 2021

In this episode we talk to Sarah Blanc and Mathieu Geffré about the way they approached the task, back in April, of pivoting their touring plans online.

They discuss their immediate feelings of desperation and the subsequent "battle to find a new way and new solutions" within new conditions. They talk about the nuts and bolts of involving a community cast during lockdown: building trust and connections through Whatsapp and Zoom. We discuss the choice of title for Mathieu’s lockdown film: The Ceremony, and Sarah’s approach to working remotely with an intergenerational cast using poetry. And we speak of ever-present frustrations of technology, intellectual rights and the challenges of keeping communities comfortable within a digital world.

Sarah and Mathieu bring the conversation to a close as they consider how they now place value on their work and the need they still have to "feel like we are surviving as artists".

Prior to listening to the podcast you may enjoy watching Sarah and Mathieu’s Up My Street Online films – a Greenwich Dance project conceived (pre-Covid) to be a cabaret tour to community centres.

Recording date: 4 August 2020

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious

In this episode we talk to Seeta Patel and Wayne Parsons about the relationship between organisation - be they venues, companies, agencies - and artists.

Living through a pandemic has highlighted the fragile ecology upon which the performing arts industry is built. The community Freelancers Make Theatre Work, a group of volunteers set up to give freelancers a voice, has published data which says that over a third of the freelance workforce received no support during Covid – making their reliance on the sometimes tenuous relationship between organisation and artist even more important.

Seeta and Wayne talk about how they supported themselves and their own dancers through Covid. They discuss the pivot to digital and conclude that perhaps we are all beginners within the digital world and have much to learn together if we are to continue to inhabit the digital space with integrity.

They muse upon the lessons that have been learnt, by both organisations and artists, throughout the crisis and how we all might learn from these as we build a stronger future. We unpick the value that associate programmes have for the artists who acquire them, the difficulties in maintaining relationships with organisations when personnel move on and how we build more sustainable opportunities for the artistic workforce.

We discuss the terminology ‘artist development’ and what artists really need to develop right now, and Melanie poses the question – what would you do, if you ran an organisation, to support artists like yourselves? The answers are illuminating…

Recording date: Tuesday 26 January 2021

Talking Moves is a Greenwich Dance production
Presented by Melanie Precious
Production by Carmel Smith, Lucy White and Melanie Precious