Do you want to grow faster while also staying nimble like a small agency? Growing your agency means growing your team. One agency actually did it by dedicating half of its team to sales. Sometimes it just takes a simple change of focus or a deeper look at the effectiveness of your processes to find meaningful success.

In today's episode we'll cover:

• 3 keys to landing the right agency prospects.
• Is it time to break apart your agency teams?
• How to build on successful sales and continue to grow.

Today I talked to Michael Weinhouse, founder and co-CEO of Logical Position. Logical Position is a digital marketing agency based out of Portland, Oregon, who in just 10 years has grown to over 700 employees. Find out how a focus on sales led to tremendous agency growth.

3 Keys to Landing the Right Agency Prospects

In the beginning, clients don't just come to you. Gaining clients and growing your agency takes a lot of hard work. For Michael, he found the number one way to scale his agency fast was sales. This focus on sales led to partnerships with Google and Microsoft which contributed to the agency's rapid growth.

In the early years, this meant a lot of cold calling. For several years, the team was primarily composed of salespeople. Even after the agency began to see success, the number one focus was still sales, to the point that 50% of the employees were sales!

But if you are going to narrow-in on sales, you have to do it right. For Logical Position, it was all about making sure each call provided value. So how do you do this?

1. Do your homework. You don't want to waste a potential client's time. Find out what your client wants and don't be afraid to give little nuggets of value or tips, even if the prospect doesn't sign on.
2. Total transparency. Michael's agency uses a quality assurance team to make sure every client they sign-on is the right fit. By being transparent and letting a client know, "Hey, this isn't a good fit," they are able to truly help the clients they do sign on without setting unrealistic expectations.
3. Not everything has to be perfect. Be open to feedback. Take the criticism you get and implement it into your processes.

Is It Time to Break Apart Your Agency Teams?

A lot of agencies divide work between several teams within the agency. While this approach may work for some agencies, it's not the way Logical Position does things. There are a couple of reasons for this. Michael says he always found sticking to one sector is a quick path to burnout — not good when you're trying to grow your team. When you allow your team to work with people in different verticals they can use conversations from one area to find best practices that work with another.

But while there are no teams, this certainly doesn't mean there is no structure. Logistical Position uses a tiered system to incentivize employees and keep things organized. Once you have mastered one skill set and met your goals, you have the opportunity to move further up in the agency. Michael says there is a natural level of competition among his sales team, which definitely helps convert leads.

How to Build on Successful Sales and Continue to Grow

You may be thinking: "You can't run an agency simply on sales," and you're right. Michael says the tipping point came about three years ago when the sales team had been so successful the operations team had to expand to keep up with the growth. Presently, the sales force makes up just over a quarter of the agency team, instead of the 50% share they had previously held.

As for acquisitions, Logical Position acquired its first agency at around the $20 or $30 million mark. They chose an agency they had previously worked with and whom they had built a lot of trust. They have since acquired yet a third agency. From here, Logical Position really began to grow. As a co-CEO, Michael has found his team was at the point where they could take the day-to-day stuff, allowing him to focus on employee and client retention.

Scaling an agency can be a challenge. It's important to find a focus and figure out what works for your team. A successful sales process is a great way to increase clients and motivate your team to continue to grow.

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Verblio's platform is designed specifically for agencies -- and for a limited time, they are offering my audience 50% off your first month of content. My team is using Verblio and loving it, so make sure you check them out.

Does your agency have a defined niche? Do you serve a specific industry or work in a specific vertical offering? We always hear the riches are in the niches, but it's all about balance. Growth comes from serving the right clients with the right offering. Boost client retention when your agency's positioning is clear on who you serve and the solution you provide. After all, you can’t be everything to everyone -- you'll just end up a generalist, 'me too' agency. However, choosing a vertical and horizontal niche might be too limiting at first. Niching down too much and too quickly can leave your business vulnerable to the whims of the market. Today’s guests learned this after seeing exponential growth and then panicking once a change in the algorithm threatened their business niche.

Adam Smith and Laura Hanlon are owners and Co-Directors of Pink Leopard, a growth acceleration agency that helps e-commerce brands grow and scale through the power of paid social, search, and email. The majority of their clients are female-owned e-commerce brands with a primarily female clientele. This wasn’t always the case, however. In its early days, the agency was exclusively focused on Facebook ads.  However, a shift in the market forced them to reconsider if they perhaps niched down too, much too soon.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Discovering a niche is too limiting.
• Growing from 1 hire to a team of 20.
• Boosting client retention with the right offering.
• Time tracking to increase profitability.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Starting an Agency and Selecting a Business Partner

Initially, Laura worked in network marketing and used social media to launch and grow brands, as she had done with her own. It was a very different time and organization was the only thing you needed to grow. However, she quickly identified that paid social ads were the key to helping brands get to the next level.

During that time, she also found a passion for e-commerce and started her own e-commerce store. In hindsight, it was too much on top of her agency work, but it helped her understand her clients’ struggles. As her business grew, she was still a one-woman show getting more and more business thanks to referrals. This is when she thought about Adam.

They had known each other for years, he also wanted to start a business, and his experience in business development and employee engagement complemented her own experiences. He was an ideal match for a business partner.

Growing from the First Hire to a Team of 20

With Laura selling and Adam handling operations, the agency grew quickly. After just six months they hired an account manager to alleviate the handover from sales to delivery.

This meant Laura could focus on running accounts while the account manager handled the back-and-forth with clients. However, when the pandemic hit, as it happened to many, agency growth soared. They quickly went from a 2-person operation to a 20-person team.

Not every new hire was successful. In fact, they made the common mistake of hiring someone very junior when they didn't have the time to train him. Adam and Laura learned they needed to hire skilled experts, which proved to be a great move. Now, they have specialists leading and growing the teams while they focus on growing the agency.

Can an Agency Be Too Niched? 

At first, Pink Leopard worked exclusively with Meta (Facebook) in the e-commerce space. They felt confident to be starting out with a clear idea of their niche and audience. They grew significantly during the Covid pandemic when a lot of brands moved to an e-commerce model or stepped up their e-comm presence. However, growth during the pandemic was very hard to maintain two years later, when things got back to normal. Additionally, the Apple/iOS changes removing data sharing were catastrophic for them as a Facebook agency.

They actually lost a few clients, who were cutting costs after growing too fast during the pandemic. A lot of this had to do with taking on the wrong clients, Laura admits. In 2020 and 2021 they were taking on many businesses without properly vetting them. They later discovered these clients weren't a culture fit.

In the end, they learned relying on a single platform like Facebook was just too risky. They pivoted to being all-in with e-commerce and diversified their services to include email marketing and Google ads.

How to Boost Client Retention with the Right Offering

Diversifying their service offering actually turned out to be a massive client retention piece. It has also helped with growth as they established trust with their clients.

Their new expanded offering helps attract partners who understand the value of a marketing mix including discovery, intent, and retention. Their services are much more robust, now. Which helped improve client retention because they’re no longer reporting on just one channel's performance. Now that they’re working on email, Facebook, and Google, their reports are true reflections of the results they're getting for clients.

How Time Tracking Helps Track Profitability

If they could go back, Adam and Laura would take a closer look at their pricing model a lot sooner. Most agencies are guilty of starting out with lower pricing to attract clients and grow. But it’s important to implement time-tracking to really track where your team is spending time and which projects/clients are actually profitable. The next step to being profitable is saying no to the wrong clients.

It's a risk many agency owners are afraid to take however it's very liberating when you turn away clients that you know aren't the right fit.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Have you considered making a move to a fully remote agency? Do you think your agency team could benefit from more creative freedom? As agency owners, we're always looking for ways to grow a successful team and build a successful brand. What if you found out you can do both, just by providing a rockstar culture?

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How freedom and flexibility increase team productivity. 
• Why agency culture is so important. 
• How your agency can survive the battle of the bands.

Today I had the opportunity to sit down with Angel Gonzales, CMO, and co-founder of Snappy Kraken, an automated marketing platform exclusively for financial advisors. Angel's agency consists solely of remote team members and they've created a business model where they don't just survive, they thrive. Angel is on the show to share how and why his agency's virtual office is the key to their success.  

How Freedom and Flexibility Increases Team Productivity

Who doesn't want the option to work from home in their pajamas? Okay, maybe not some of you crazy extroverts. But for many of us in the agency space, one of the main reasons we do what we do is to have a level of freedom and flexibility. 

At Snappy Kraken, every single person who works for the agency does so remotely. There is no office or main hub. Team members are literally scattered throughout the U.S. So how did Angel know a virtual agency was the right choice for his agency? He says it all comes down to their key values, freedom, and flexibility. Angel says freedom is defined by the number of choices you have. It's simple, the number one way to give your agency more freedom is to provide more choices, such as where they work. 

Why Agency Culture is So Important

If you have a traditional office, you may be wondering how you keep everyone connected. Angel says it's quite simple, and it's a component I stress so much in any agency setting. When you build an agency, you have to focus on culture. 

Even in a virtual environment, a toxic person is like cancer. Culture is the glue that keeps you all together and allows you to stay focused on the same goals. Angel looks at culture as what you as an agency celebrate, and what you stigmatize. This goes beyond your team. Creating the right culture includes choosing the right clients that support your vision. When you all have a common goal, you'll have no problem staying connected. 

Bonus tip: If you find yourself doing a lot of communication through emails or other written applications, consider throwing in a few emojis to make sure your tone comes off the way you intended it. 

How Your Agency Can Beat the Competition

Did I forget to mention before starting his agency, Angel was in a band? Because of this, he says you need to approach projects like you're writing a pop song. What does this mean? Basically — leave your ego at the door.

Think of it as a "Battle of the Bands":  One band is a group of musicians, all trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. They don't work together but instead lead with ego and try to stand out on their own. Another band, however, balances each other out and works to make sure they're making good music together. In the "Battle of the Bands," band number two wins.

The lesson:  when you stop worrying about being the star and come together as a team, you'll win against your ego-focused competition.

Your success as an agency relies on a variety of factors. When you provide choices, create a rockstar culture, and focus on the team, you're bound to find a winning combination. 

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Once a year, our digital agency owners mastermind cohort trades Zoom squares for open skies, convening at a ranch to deepen connections forged through months of vulnerable idea sharing. For three days, members taste true community while sampling strategies for unlocking agency success. But the annual live retreat with other mastermind members promises more than stimulating discussion and delicious food. This gathering of peers breeds breakthroughs that boost business and life alike.

Between fireside chats and horseback excursions, mastermind members crystallize priorities, pressure test assumptions, and summon the courage to meet change head-on. Tune in to hear some of this year's highlights and the many benefits both the members and the team take from this annual event.

Darby Copenhaver and Jason Swenk look back on this year’s Digital Agency Experience (affectionately known as DAX). They discuss the benefits of having a couple of days for in-person meetings and how it provides a sense of comfort and personal growth for everyone involved. They also recall some fun campfire anecdotes, the best memories they take from this year's reunion, and some key learnings everyone took back home.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Digital agency experience 2023.
• Revelations around staffing and agency values.
• Leadership check-ins on what you need to start, stop, and continue.

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Sponsors and Resources

Gusto: Running payroll and benefits is hard. Especially when you’re a small business. Gusto is a tool that helps make payroll, benefits, and HR easy for small businesses. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits, and great service to take care of your team. For a limited time, Gusto is offering a deal to Smart Agency Master Class listeners. Check out Gusto.com/agency for 3-months FREE once you run your first payroll with them.

Digital Agency Experience 2023 

This was Darby’s third year at the Agency Mastermind Experience and, as always, it was unique. Most of the members had not met in person and didn’t know what to expect. Fortunately, the experience created an overwhelming sense of comfort for everyone attending. The members were interacting at all times and had so much to share after a year of online meetings.

In his conversation with members, Darby could see how much they each took away. Everyone had their expectations of what they wanted to get out of the event or what they thought they needed. Fortunately, every single one expressed they got monumentally more than they expected.

When they join the mastermind, agency owners are normally filled with questions and not sure who to turn to get the answers. In many cases, mastermind discussions lead to tough questions that lead agency owners to question where they are with their business and what they need to keep growing. For others, it may lead to affirming things they already know they should do.

In many ways, it’s like group therapy. Even though you already know something, it hits differently when you’re forced to say it out loud and in front of your peers. It forces people into action in a way they might never do on their own.

Staffing Revelations Around Talent and Values

Gathering people around a campfire can foster a sense of camaraderie and create lasting memories. It’s a perfect moment for them to let their guard down and go back to their high school selves. It creates an environment where people can connect on a deeper level and engage in authentic conversations.

During the mastermind experience, the campfire was a time for reflection, collaboration, and goal-setting. The group engaged in conversations about parenting, work, and personal aspirations.

This year, many conversations highlighted the importance of considering values when it comes to your team. Jason is a big believer in evaluating team members and clients based on whether they align with the same values. It becomes an important aspect of building a successful and cohesive group. Just ask yourself, "Would I want to hang out with them at my house?"

It’s not exactly about surrounding yourself with ‘yes men’, but brilliant workers can still corrode culture. Mastermind members traded tales of top performers poisoning team dynamics.

Finding the right talent is hard, of course. But hiring mistakes grate slowly and then mass exodus eventually follows. So surgically remove cultural cancers promptly. It's the best approach to protect your team and save yourself bigger problems down the line.

Furthermore, implement the value element as part of your hiring process. Vet people based on their talent and how compatible they are with the established agency values.

Leadership Check-Ins: What to Start, Stop, and Continue?

What does your team want you to start doing? What do they want you to stop doing? And what would they like you to continue doing? These questions were part of the group discussions and led to useful realizations, even for Jason, who was asked to institute a 24-hour rule with his team.

As a leader, Jason is a doer with a tendency to act on his ideas quickly. Quick decision-making can be beneficial in some cases, but it can also lead to hasty decisions and the need for subsequent changes.

Both Darby and Stacey, the director of happiness, know Jason usually has very good ideas. He is the type of person who gets things done. There are many positives to this. He doesn’t fall into the trap of overthinking and over-analyzing. However, impulsive behavior can result in the entire team dedicating hours of work to something that may be scratched in the end.

With the 24-hour rule, they can ensure decisions are now given time for careful consideration before taking action, increasing the chance of success.

“Good is The Enemy of Great”

This was part of the mastermind’s discussions when talking about training your team to push themselves for greatness. At some point, we may feel pretty confident in what we do and our team’s success. However, there’s always room for improvement.

We all probably have an idea of what we could and should be doing to be better at what we do. However, as human beings, it can be hard to push yourself out of your comfort zone, which is where greatness lies. Training your team to always strive for greatness will ensure you’re surrounded by people who will challenge and push each other to reach their full potential.

Moreover, by instilling this mindset in your team, you’re empowering them to make decisions and take action without constant supervision. This, in turn, allows you to focus on higher-level tasks and responsibilities.

A Space for All Agency Owners Willing to Share to Reach Their Goals

So what can the members take from this members' only digital agency experience? The experience fosters new ideas and open communication that the agency owners can then take to their teams.

So many agencies nowadays are virtual which has benefits for both employees and owners. However, they also miss out on the banter and in-person interactions that come with being in an office. By making this an in-person experience, Jason and the team hope to infuse some of that creativity and problem-solving spirit into the attendees and get them back to their agencies filled with new ideas.

The mastermind is by no means a bro club. This year it was pretty evenly divided between men and women attendees. It is a place for all agency owners who need help getting through some hurdles hindering their growth. As long you're a giving, sharing, vulnerable, transparent, and honest person, you have a place to go where you can be around similar people, no matter who you are or where you come from.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners who can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Have you used LinkedIn to generate leads for your agency? Do you know how to access your ideal prospects on LinkedIn? A lot of people get LinkedIn messaging wrong their results show it. It can be a very valuable platform when you use it the right way and master the type of messaging that gets engagement. However, very few do it right. Today’s guest has a lead generation agency that specializes in creating targeted messages that generate responses from your ideal prospects. He shares common mistakes agencies typically make on LinkedIn and tips for improving your LinkedIn outreach.

Nick Verity is the CEO of Cleverly, a LinkedIn marketing agency that uses data from thousands of outbound B2B campaigns to send proven, personalized messages to your dream clients on this platform. His team leverages high-performing data to engage your most qualified decision-makers, driving them directly into your sales funnel.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Common mistakes with LinkedIn messages
• How to get LinkedIn messaging right.
• Accessing your ideal prospects on LinkedIn.

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Sponsors and Resources

Dot & Co: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Dot & Co, client management specialists helping digital marketing agencies keep their clients happy. With the help of their knowledgeable account managers agency owners can step away from the day-to-day and focus on driving results. Check out dotandcompany.co/smartagency and get 20% off your first month working with them.

Starting Out as a Lead Generation Agency

Nick got into the agency world figuring if he learned how to market he would always have a job. His business partner used to work in lead generation for a big tech company and had successfully used LinkedIn to create leads for himself. Of course, experience with lead generation came in handy when they decided to create an agency.

Their original offer was a ton of volume on LinkedIn with fully done-for-you copywriting and targeting. It was very successful and they were soon charging $800 per month to send 2,000 connection requests on LinkedIn. However, things have changed since LinkedIn has limited connection requests to 400 per month.

The Unusual Path that Led to Scaling the Agency

Looking back, Nick sees they failed to work on filling their sales pipeline faster. Basically, they stuck to the same 20 clients for about a year. They were doing so much for these clients that it was difficult to focus on bringing in more business. This meant their agency growth plateaued.

The eventual solution was dropping prices and making a switch to fully backend scalable operations coupled with a lot of automation. This was the solution they needed in order to scale. It was the key to pulling themselves out of the business. For Nick, making those changes and being delegating work is what made the difference between scaling and staying at the same level as other agencies.

Many agencies take the opposite route of having fewer clients and charging more, but this is the change Cleverly needed in order to scale.

The Most Common Mistake People Make on LinkedIn

Most people ignore the "salesy," persistent messages we normally get on LinkedIn. You can see them from a mile away. According to Nick, most people get on LinkedIn thinking they’re just going to pitch and sell, which leads to the many irrelevant messages we all know. With automation, it becomes even worse as they start to spread the same irrelevant messaging even more. It fills inboxes with the same type of generic messages and drives people away from the platform.

Like cold calling and cold email, there are ways to make it work, there are just very few doing it right.

How Can You Get LinkedIn Messaging Right?

• Step 1: Targeting. People usually look for copy hacks to improve their LinkedIn success. However, Nick says it all starts with targeting. Half the reason people assume the message is spam is because they see “I’m an insurance agent or real estate broker” and think “I don’t need this.” Think about targeting first. Don't just target everyone. Instead, niche down and make sure to hit relevant people. List your clients and try to target similar individuals. This way, you're saying something credible and relevant which increases the chance of success. At his agency, they use Sales Navigator to build a hyper-niche list of around 1,000 prospects.
  

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• Step 2: Mindset shift. You’re not on LinkedIn to sell. Instead, your goal is to start conversations and build a network. When you change your mindset to starting conversations, your messages are shorter and you'll learn to ask good discovery questions. Instead of pitching, lead off by providing value for free and see where it goes.
  

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• Step 3: The conversation. You can start the conversation by boosting their ego. Complement them on the work they’re doing and be specific on where you think they’re doing really well. Next, you make a low-friction offer that’s not a sales pitch. For instance, invite them on your podcast or offer to send a video with valuable information. After that, it’s all about the delivery. If it’s a video, for example, make sure it’s really well done and actually offers valuable, relevant information.

What Makes Engaging LinkedIn Posts?

Most LinkedIn posts get little to no engagement but Nick says there are a couple of types of posts that outperform others.

First, if you want to go viral, focus on HR and stories. Most people on LinkedIn are not big CEOs, they’re employees. It may be corny, but people really resonate with stories about overcoming failure; like “started from the bottom and overcame all obstacles” or “I was fired and now I’m a top performer”.

Nick also likes to post value-added content, like a post about his agency’s strategy and then offering a complete guide for people who comment. These posts can include video and images as long as it’s not just a repost and you’re adding something exclusively for this platform.

It’s worked so well for them that they managed to scale their agency to 1 million with just LinkedIn outreach and Google ads.

Tips for Accessing Your Audience on LinkedIn

If you’re not getting the results you want on LinkedIn, Nick suggests using the search bar to look for ideal prospects. Send at least 15 connection requests per day. Customize each request by saying something personalized based on the prospect’s profile. Usually, three to eight of your new connections will accept, which validates that your ideal audience is accessible.

It’s also a good idea to stick to the channels you master as you grow your agency. His agency expanded to a total of 8 channels only now that they’re over $4 million. They get leads off Twitter and do SEO but he recommends getting very good at maybe one or two as you start off.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

In this session of The Smart Agency Master Class, I chat with Gene Hammett about how to get unstuck so we can each reach that next level. Gene is a business coach who loves working with businesses to find new strategies including marketing strategies to move forward. He is also the host of Leaders in the Trenches, a podcast where he offers insights and tips from leaders and today’s entrepreneurs. You should definitely check it out, especially episode 6, featuring me.

Getting your business unstuck.

You probably do a lot of marketing for your clients but hardly any for yourself. Sure, referrals come in because you’re great at what you do, but it doesn’t happen frequently enough to help move to the next level. And the clients coming in aren’t always the right kind of clients.

Being really intentional about the kind of agency you want to be gives you the freedom to create amazing solutions and land those high-profit projects. You want big names; the ones that really allow you to be creative. But you’re not going to get there if you don’t start marketing yourself.

If your website isn’t enticing to you, how is it going to attract anyone else?

Stop making the time excuse.

If the reason you haven’t been marketing yourself is that you don’t have the time, it’s because you’re doing too much. You need to be building your team out and delegating. If you’re putting the right people and the right processes into place, you’ll be able to get out there and grow your business.

You simply can’t do everything, everyday. You need to outsource! Find people with more expertise than you to do the things that they do best, so you can go out and do what you do best - sell your business.

If you’re not doing what you want to be doing because you’re too bogged down in the details, then something is wrong. Try this exercise from episode 22 of Gene’s podcast: write down everything you want to create and then write down what you’re willing to give up in order to do it.

It’s all about finding your passion. It may seem counterintuitive, but taking on a broad spectrum of clients isn’t going to make you money or help you grow. Niching gets you the kind of work you want and positions you for long-term growth.

Foot in the door approach.

Okay, so you’ve found your niche - now how do you get the clients? Gene offers these two points:

1. Think of where you can create more opportunity with the people that already know and like you. Remember, people are 20 times more likely to do business with you if they are already a paying customer.
2. Look at the people who have been in your pipeline for a long time and identify some small service that can get your foot in the door. It’s not about making a profit at this point. It’s about changing the relationship and turning a prospect into a client.

The good news, according to Gene, is that digital agencies can do the second point really well. Use your niche to find businesses that are absolutely hungry for what you have. Figure out what you can give away to get their attention and then identify the service you can provide to convert them to a paying customer. After that you can introduce your core services.

Get your foot in the door first, and the rest will follow.

Marketing Strategies for your Own Agency

Using the best marketing strategies not only for clients but having a clear focus on your own marketing strategies with get your agency in front of new potential clients.

I have probably experienced all the different struggles for an agency owner through my own experience and I can help you from what I learned. From what to do with your sales processes, ways to increase your profit margins or how you can build authority for your agency.

I can tell you the best ways to stop losing money on projects, why performance based pricing can be the best pricing strategy for your agency as well as why including remote working or freelancers in your team can be beneficial in the long run.

You can learn more about my career and different experiences as well as tips, tricks and insights by checking out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

Find more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my Youtube channel. There you will find advice from myself and other agency experts.

Does your agency develop content for clients? Do you have an in-house content team or outsource? What issues have you run into building your content team? The key to amazing content is building an amazing team. However, a common struggle for agency owners is not knowing the right structure or managing style. Today’s guest will share some insight on what to look for when putting together your content team and the right questions to ask to ensure you’re getting the best talent.

Ryan Sargent is the Director of Content Marketing at Verblio, the world’s friendliest content creation platform. Verblio builds content marketing for other marketers at scale by pairing specialized, niche writers with advertising agencies and marketing professionals. Ryan has been on the podcast before talking about Verblio’s agencies are using content marketing.

As content director, he knows his share of building and managing a content creation team. Recently, and thanks to Verblio’s new podcast, he has had the opportunity to talk to other team managers from different agencies and learn that they all pretty much share the same issues, which he will explore in this interview.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Where to start when building your content creation team.
• Asking the right questions to ensure you’re hiring the right person.
• The best way to manage your content creation team.

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Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease in their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

Where to Start Building Your Content Creation Team

When it comes to building your team, structure is very important and the order you make your hires will set the stage for future success. For starters, you want someone who really owns the manager/editor role. This will be a linchpin of the team structure.

Usually, someone on the director level will have to work a lot on strategy. This is particularly true for in-house teams. The team manager must know the type of content the team is creating and why they’re creating that content. Management may not be the most attractive part of the job, but ultimately someone has to make sure that everyone’s on schedule and the lights stay on. If you can fill that seat with someone who specializes in project management, you’re off to a great start.

A lot of times, people bring in a CMO person that will focus on strategy but are not willing to roll up their sleeves. What you need is a managing editor that can write content, develop a process, and then manage people under them.

Why Your Should Develop a Process Early

Something that Ryan kept hearing is that having a process is critical to ensuring that, whatever strategy you’re pursuing, you’ll find success. The process will allow you to generate content from a lot of different sources. If done right, you’ll set up a process that will be repeatable and will generate efficiency all on its own.

Creating the Content In-House or Outsourcing?

Ryan was surprised to learn that when it comes to content, everyone’s doing it a bit different. When it comes to where agencies are getting their content, the hybrid model is apparently very common. For every agency that is producing its content in-house, there are multiple that outsource at least part of it.

The same is true for in-house teams. This is a place where agencies and in-house marketing teams are operating in exactly the same way. Everyone’s mixing and matching, often depending on the type of content and industry.

Should the Content Manager Read Every Piece of Content?

Not all agency owners are equipped for managing teams. Some prefer to make the right hires from the start, give them the direction, and let them manage. People management is hard and can be tough to juggle with all the responsibilities that come with being an agency owner.

Because of this, some of the same issues kept coming up and no definitive answer is yet available. For instance, as a content manager should you be reading every single article produced by your team? Furthermore, once they’re producing dozens of articles a week, does your answer change? For Ryan, if you’re running a content team then yes, you should be reading everything.

However, he does agree that a content manager should only be reading pieces that are mostly finished. This is because:

1. He wants to show his team that he trusts them, and
2. He loves the creativity that comes out when he’s not constantly reminding his team of the content strategy.

Asking the Right Questions to Find the Right Talent

When you’re hiring people for your in-house content team it’s all about asking the right questions. Ryan likes to open the interview asking about the best piece of content they’ve ever written, followed by how did they know it was their best piece of content. Both answers are important. This way, he hopes to hear about something that isn’t a standard piece of content. Also, they would ideally talk about ways of measuring content success that are more conversion-centered than Google analytics.

For freelancers, his go-to question is “how did you become an expert in this topic?” The hardest part of outsourcing content is getting a writer that really knows the industry. For agencies, that problem is magnified because every client is in a different world and you need to find writers that can manage all those different verticals. The ability to vet a freelancer often comes down to that and the brief; a good follow-up question would be “what are the most important things you need in a brief?” If they talk about industry knowledge, sources to get started, content strategy, and most importantly, the purpose of this article, then you have a great candidate. If you get questions more directed at a style guide and less about coming up with the knowledge required to come up with the article, it’s probably not a right fit.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital

Are you struggling with generating new business and grow your digital agency? In this episode of The Smart Agency Master Class, I talk with Michael Gass who is going to share with us his steps for driving new agency business.

Positioning is the foundation of generating ad agency new business.

Historically, agencies have problems when it comes to generating new business. There’s little differentiation; every agency sounds just like the next. It’s like you’re forgetting your marketing minds when it comes to promoting your agency.

Think having great creative makes you different from the next guy? Michael doesn’t. “Great creative isn’t a point of differentiation, it’s an expectation.” If you really want to stand apart you need to narrow your focus - find that niche - and give the prospects a reason to want to work with you.

Stop being your own worst client and making it harder than it should be!

The paradigm shift.

Let’s face it - it just isn’t how it used to be. Many agency founders, who were once great at working a room are finding themselves pretty inept nowadays. But Michael points out that we don’t need to be mourning the days of chasing new business.

He suggests using technology to entice new business to come to you. Don’t worry if you have been slow to start using social media, you’re not alone. Most agencies didn’t start using it until 2010, and then they just did the same thing they were doing in the real world - talking about themselves.

“Credentials, capabilities, and case studies - no one cares.” Prospects are looking for resources, not portfolios.

7 steps to differentiation and driving new business to your agency.

#1 - Identify a target audience. Remember, you want to work with people who fit in that sweet spot. Once you find the target audience, set a clear objective.

#2 - Find your purpose. Think about what your content driven blog is providing. Make sure that you’re keeping your focus narrow. If you try to be everything to everybody, you won’t appeal to anyone.

#3 - Develop content! Michael gives his clients a 30 post in 30 days challenge. Do that and you’ll have a lot of content and a routine for future production. Also, make sure you’re leading with the benefit statement (i.e. put the most important information at the top to hook your readers).

#4 - Include a clear call to action. Give your readers a prompt to keep the conversation going.

#5 - Implement best practices. Keep what works and dump what doesn’t.

#6 - Make use of your analytics to refine and improve your content. You can learn a lot by just looking at the data, so if you’re not currently checking your analytics, you’re missing out.

#7 - Manage the process. Use automation or hire someone to be responsible for making sure posts happen. Even if you’re busy with pitches or away at a conference, someone should be in charge of putting out content.

What you can do right now to start generating new business for your agency?

Michael is a huge fan of social media and is adamant that we get comfortable using it. Tweet a lot, post on Google+, Facebook and LinkedIn. Write blog posts. Share, share, share.

Start building a community. Use social media to promote your blog and share your posts. You can also share posts by others that you think are relevant and interesting. For help building that community, try ManageFlitter.

Sound daunting? Michael suggests using Basecamp, a project management tool. Michael calls it “the ultimate cat herding program."

Discover the best Digital Agency Strategies today. Get Online Training to help you setup the right systems and strategies to help you grow faster.

Grow Your Agency Profits

With this insight, I hope this improves your strategy for generating new business. This can only be successful by focusing on the processes you within your agency to improve it as a whole but I can help you get through all of it.

I can give you advice on what to do when you are presented with new client opportunities as well as the different ways of building agency authority.

Growing your agency can be a major goal for many agency owners. I can show you the different phases of growth you will experience, how placing a process for performance based pricing can be the best pricing strategy for your business and the three questions you need to ask yourself to sell more!

You can also learn about my career and different experiences as well as lots of tips, tricks and insights by checking out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

Check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my Youtube channel. There you will find advice from myself and other agency experts.

Experts are sensing a downturn in the economy... But is your agency recession proof? So many variables go into a healthy agency. Maybe you should look at raising agency prices? Maybe your agency really needs to hire (or fire) to make yourself indispensable to clients? If the economy takes a hit, you have to know who to hire, who to fire, and the right way to price your services in order to survive.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to grow in a recession.
• When should you raise your prices?
• 3 reasons clients love project managers.
• Is your agency business partner still the right fit?

I had a great conversation with Scarlett Rosier, Co-founder of Rhyme and Reason Design. Scarlett is one of those "unicorns" who actually went to college and got a Masters in Advertising. (So many of us are accidental agency owners who just fell into the business!) Scarlett is put her skills to work as the Director of Operations at her agency for the past 10 years. She's here to talk about growing in a down economy, nailing your pricing, and the value in project managers.

How to Recession Proof Your Agency

Worried about a potentially volatile economy? Don't be! When the market goes down, your agency has an opportunity to go up. Here's the big secret — in-house marketing teams are usually the first cut.

Cutting the in-house team, therefore, justifies agency costs for your clients. Brands still need marketing in a recession. But, they can usually save money by getting more help externally.

Don't fear a recession; embrace it. If you survive the recession, you'll have a bunch of new clients and a reason to raise prices. And you need to raise prices in order to be profitable.

When Should You Raise Your Prices?

The simplest answer is this — whenever you can! You have to be able to justify a price increase with value. So, if your value has gone up over the past year, your prices should too.

Let's say you've hired two new people, learned a ton of tips and tricks, and you're even better at helping clients this year than you were last year. Your prices should reflect those improvements because your clients are benefitting from them.

I recommend reviewing and raising prices at least once a year. You should constantly be improving, building better processes, learning new techniques and strategies. And that means you're giving clients more value year-over-year.

Adjust your proposals to match the increased value. Plus, you probably give your employees a yearly raise based on performance, right? Your clients should be giving you one too!

Think about it this way... If you have a heart attack, are you going to use the best surgeon or the cheapest one? Price your agency services to match your skill and you'll attract the ideal clients instead of the ones who just want a bargain.

A price increase is the fastest and easiest way to grow your agency business.

3 Ways Project Managers Help Retain Clients

Want to know what clients really want? They want relationships and regular communication. They want to feel assured they've made the right decision to work with your agency. And that's where a great PM helps retain clients.

1. They're the client's trusted advisor. Your clients need someone to touch base with so they don't feel like they're in the dark. Clients have questions, ideas and business goals they want to talk about. A PM is their agency contact for listening, sharing, and connecting.
   

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2. They are a single point of contact. No client wants to have to go through a new person every time they need something, and frankly allowing them to do that would cause massive problems anyhow. Project managers build client relationships, which brings tangible value to your agency. It's easier to make existing clients happy than constantly bringing on new ones, right? Happy clients make agencies giant.
   

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3. Project managers attack pain points. Hiring an agency requires a leap of faith on the client's part. They don't know if they're going to get results, and they're spending money on potential value. Project managers can help ease those fears and avoid buyers remorse. A good PM will anticipate the client's fears and talk through them.

Is Your Agency Business Partner Still the Right Fit?

Business partner relationships can be like a marriage. You rely on each other, and you know the day-to-day struggles the other faces. But, what happens when your marriage evolves or changes?

But also like marriage, business partner "divorce" isn't easy. And the realization of its necessity something many owners grapple with.

I have a saying — "You either know the bad partner or you are the bad partner." Sure, sometimes partnerships are successful, but oftentimes I see the partners outgrow each other.

So how do you know when it's time to part ways with a business partner? It's all about communication and goals...

Scarlett says to look at how the person argues as an indicator of their communication. Are they articulate? Can they stand their ground intelligently? You don't need to agree all the time, but being able to disagree effectively is what makes a great partnership.

Rhyme and Reason was initially founded by three partners, but there came a time where one of them had different goals. That's when Scarlett realized there needed to be a shift in the agency's leadership. If a partner has career goals that don't align with yours and with the agency, it may be time to part ways.

Are you paying attention to the changes AI is bringing to the agency world? How have you been finding ways to incorporate it to streamline processes? Would you consider hiring a dedicated innovation role to keep track of these technological advances and not fall behind? Today’s guest has been in the industry for over 20 years but has been active in staying on top of new technological developments that will change how marketers operate forever. He’s actively testing new uses for AI and working to keep his team excited about learning everything they can about these developments. Discover why refusing to learn and adapt will leave your agency in the past and the importance of a good AI prompt to get the best results.

Jeff Lizik is the president of RedShift Digital Marketing, an ROI-focused business that defines itself as more of an “anti-agency”. His team promises to increase clients’ visibility, boost website traffic, and grow their business while building real relationships that will impact their businesses.

Jeff shares how his accidental success as a paintball retailer led to his venture into the world of digital marketing. He also dives into the challenges he faced with Google's algorithm updates and highlights the need for agency owners to be versatile and adaptable in a constantly evolving industry.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• The power of an expertly crafted AI prompt.

• Will you eventually need a director of innovation?

• Why you should hire highly skilled talent sooner rather than later.

From Accidental E-Commerce Success to Leading a Top Agency

Jeff found accidental success in the e-commerce industry in 2001 selling paintball supplies he got on eBay. Within a year, he had sold a million dollars worth of products and became the second-largest paintball retailer globally. At one point, he even participated in the beta testing for third-party selling on Amazon.

After his e-commerce venture, he initially decided to take a break and go back to a corporate job. It didn’t last long though; once he missed the entrepreneurial lifestyle, Jeff started building affiliate sites and was making more money than before. However, once Google implemented the Penguin update, all its sites plummeted in search rankings. Unwilling to rebuild the sites, he decided to start his own agency instead.

How Technology Has Transformed and Continues to Transform Marketing

With over two decades in the agency business, the main changes Jeff sees are powered by technology; nowadays there are very efficient tools that have helped marketers improve their jobs.

According to Jeff, technology has made marketers more efficient and effective in their strategies. Search engines, particularly Google, have evolved to become more complex. Everything about Google's search results has changed, such as the placement of ads at the top and the decrease in organic search visibility.

But most people now rarely use Google for searches and instead rely on YouTube and other platforms. Hence, videos have become more important in the decision-making process and social media platforms such as Instagram will play a larger role in driving consumer behavior and sales.

On the other hand, nothing is as simple as 20 years ago. Back in the early 2000’s marketers could still scam the search engines. That’s not possible nowadays, so you have to be good at your job. And we’ve yet to see the full impact of artificial intelligence (AI) on the industry, probably the biggest transformation marketers will go through.

The Power of an Expertly Crafted AI Prompt

By now we should all understand there are potential dangers associated with AI, which is why its use should go hand in hand with human oversight and the correct prompts. There’s always the possibility the AI is giving you false information. Treat it as a tool, not a replacement for human expertise and judgment.

AI prompts are powerful tools that have the potential to revolutionize the way marketers approach their work. They can significantly enhance productivity and efficiency by streamlining processes and reducing time spent on tasks.

When it comes to creating the perfect prompts, there are already services that create these prompts for you, which not a lot of people know. These premium prompts are built by experts in the field and provide complete context and background information, ensuring that the AI understands the desired output accurately. By investing in advanced prompts, marketers can gain a deeper understanding of AI capabilities and maximize its potential.

In his case, Jeff works with very detailed prompts that produce very efficient results. How does he use this tool? After uploading detailed information about his agency and the type of clients they work with, he uses AI to create different personas and works through that until he gets one ideal customer profile. He then asks the AI to create headlines based on this customer’s pain points, as well as ideas for every social media platform. In detail, he’s experimented using AI for several areas and can confidently say he can use it for content strategy, lead generation, topic ideas, and lead magnets, and has continued to fine-tune it to get more efficient results. Done correctly, AI prompts can be a marketer's best friend.

Why AI Implementation Will Eventually Require a Dedicated Role

It can be tricky to get your team excited and comfortable using AI. They’ve been doing things a certain way for so long that they may be wary of so many changes. Jeff is slowly turning this around by offering individual members tips and ideas for how to use their prompts and save time. Furthermore, he’s also pushing for them to learn all they can about AI and its uses. Eventually, he plans to record SOPs from which they’ll learn the processes he’s currently figuring out. However, information about AI changes constantly, so he’s been holding off on doing that for now.

One important aspect of the future implementation of AI use in his agency will be hiring a dedicated role responsible for overseeing its implementation and maximizing its potential. Ideally, this role would be tied to all kinds of technological developments changing the industry, rather than just overseeing the use of IA prompts.

This director of innovation would be responsible for staying ahead of emerging technologies and trends. They would be tasked with identifying opportunities for implementing AI in various facets of the agency's operations and developing standard operating procedures (SOPs) to guide the team in utilizing AI effectively.

AI is set to become an integral part of the agency business, which warrants dedicated attention. In this regard, having someone in this role full-time will be crucial for potential cost savings and efficiency gains.

Why You Should Hire Highly Skilled Talent Sooner Rather Than Later

At this point of their agency growth, there are some roles where Jeff and his partner look to hire people with the highest skill level possible. They no longer have the time to teach them and mold them into the role.

In the past, hiring people who don’t have the capacity needed for the role has burnt them and made the agency worse. Team loyalty is important, of course, but Jeff now recognizes the need to prioritize the agency's growth and success. In a sense, he recommends holding people accountable. Once you do that, they’ll either step up and become great in their role, or they’ll see themselves out.

Knowing how having highly skilled team members can significantly contribute to the agency's growth, Jeff wishes he’d invested more in talent since the beginning. However, after the pandemic, hiring outside your state and even your country has become much more common. This has opened many more options when it comes to finding talent. Hence, newer agencies are coming up in a new landscape where they can much easily find the best talent for their needs.

Don’t Fall Behind, Pay Attention to Coming Changes

If you’re not learning about AI and testing the many ways you could be implementing it in your agency, what are you waiting for? Way too many people in the agency industry are ignoring AI. Make no mistake, if you don’t adopt AI, you will be left behind. By the time the agencies not paying attention to the impact of artificial intelligence start to pay attention, it’ll be too late.

Additionally, with the rising prices of Google ads and Facebook ads Jeff he also encourages agency owners to think about the future. What if the search is no longer affordable for your clients? How will you get eyeballs on your client’s products and services? Options like video content and podcasts will be game-changers and we should all be on the lookout for more of these options before we’re blindsided by reality.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

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When was the last time you took a break from your agency? Do you stress out just thinking about taking time off? Do you feel like everything will fall apart with you? This is usually the case when agency owners need to create SOPs and delegate more to their team. Getting serious about SOP documentation levels up your agency, sets up the team for success, and increases its overall value. It starts with an important mental shift and understanding your agency will actually benefit from you taking a step back.

Today’s guest is a process and systems expert who focuses on establishing all the necessary systems and procedures to make sure you have something to lean on. If you're doing all the agency work, you’re rarely able to put 100% into anything. This is why she focuses on teaching how to leverage rest and create simple systems to increase your agency's longevity.

Alyson Caffrey is a systems and process creation expert and the founder of Operations Agency. She helps founders get their agencies out of their brains and centralized to help them be more impactful. She’s also the author of The Sabbatical Method: How to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business, a guide to help return business owners back to their families. With it, founders learn that taking a break can increase your business’s longevity, uncover some inefficiencies, and professionalize operations.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Taking a step back increases your agency's value.
• Simplifying SOP creation to have an immediate impact.
• 3 keys to successful digital agency processes

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Why Agency Founders Need to Be Intentional with Their Time 

Like many service-based business owners, Alyson hadn’t planned to start an agency. She was working as an Operations Manager in Colorado when her husband got a career-defining opportunity that meant moving cities. Not long after that, she was approached by several former clients to continue providing some services, and she was suddenly an accidental agency owner providing SOPs and operations support.

With no children and her husband occupied in the military, Alyson had a ton of time to dedicate to her business. This meant she was able to serve clients at a really deep level in the beginning. However, when she became a mom she was confronted with the need to take time off.

As the operations expert, Alyson knows she should've had her processes documented, but like the cobbler's children with no shoes, she had not prioritized it. She now attributes the birth of her son to finally being more intentional about the time she spends working in her business and making sure she can spend time away from it, too.

Taking a Step Back Helps Increase Your Agency’s Value

Agency owners work very hard to build a business with the idea that at some point, they'll have freedom and the ability to take breaks. However, once the agency starts growing it never seems to be the right time to take time off. Many agency owners are they're forced to decide between their agency and their personal life. That means missing important events and strained relationships. Alyson says for her it was a high-stakes moment when she realized there was a problem.

It all starts with a mental shift and understanding you’re selling a transformation, not your time.

Many agency owners think they’re the only ones that can lead their business to success. However, once you remove yourself from the equation of day-to-day operations, the agency's value instantly drives up. When you can step away from the agency to recharge, or even just to work on the business and not in it, that single benefit is a game changer.

Three Steps You Can Take to Start Empowering Your Team

Where can you start to systematically take action to make the necessary changes? Alyson started by changing how she performs inside her business.

1. Screen recording. Instead of just going in and doing the work, Alyson started to screen-record while she did it.
2. Become the advisor. Next, she provide the resources and guidance for her team to get the results but didn’t do the work for them.
3. Test the framework. Alyson decided to test out her client-facing frameworks with her own team to see which processes they could set up using them.

How to Simplify SOPs and Have an Immediate Impact on Your Agency

Although the process of creating SOP's and documenting processes can take time, Alyson saw results almost immediately. After screen recording her processes, she was able to delegate some things to her client success manager. This small act freed up some of Alyson's time so she could focus on more important elements of the agency.

Start with the administrative tasks, which can be delegated overnight once you record the process. Things like sending client reports and scheduling meetings do not require a special skill set. Nothing will fall apart if you, as the agency owner, are not doing it. You can focus on other areas of the business while still allowing clients to feel supported without your direct input. Also, setting up a way to centrally locate all processes helps your team have independent access to information without needing your help.

Do you need an Operations Manager right away? In Alyson's opinion, no. Most agencies can wait until they’ve grown to maybe 30-40 people, depending on the type of agency. But it’s not a one-size-fits-all idea. Some owners can achieve results on a smaller scale. You can start by delegating or offloading just 20% of your tasks and still have a small win.

Are Your Digital Agency Processes Set Up for Failure?

Alyson says agency owners need to understand there are two states of operations. There’s operations creation and operations management. Usually, people want to skip right to the management part.

Often, agency owners want someone to come in and take over operations management without taking the time to first create the pathway. According to Alyson, this is largely why agency owners get burned with hires. They hire someone to do something without providing the tools for this person to get familiar with their role.

Furthermore, creating something that isn’t maintainable sets up failure. You can have fancy spreadsheets and automation but if you don’t understand how to maintain them, these processes go out of date fast. Building a system that needs less maintenance ultimately results in a better system that lasts longer.

3 Keys to Successful Digital Agency Operational Processes

1. Clear Expectations: We’ve all been there with projects that have a thousand revisions, take too long, or go out of scope. Start by taking a close look at those projects and get some SOPs to ask and answer: What’s in scope? What's outside of scope? What’s the timeline?
2. Standard Operating Procedures: You need to document absolutely everything around how you deliver your core services. A lack of centralized SOPs creates a limit on how much you can grow.
3. Transparent Reporting: There’s no need to overcomplicate this step. Focus on measurable KPIs around your projects. Are they on time? Within scope? Are they coming back error-free or an acceptable amount of minor errors? You want to gain visibility into how things are functioning overall to help you lay a foundation to get to the next level.

Your Digital Agency Can Grow In Your Absence

Some owners don’t want to hear this but the reality is your agency can grow in your absence. Stepping away to take a break gives you the opportunity to get to the next level. When climbing Mt. Everest, one of the main reasons climbers fail to reach the summit is the lack of altitude acclimation. This means climbers don’t take enough breaks at strategic points to prepare themselves for the next level.

In the end, reaching the summit is just 15 minutes of celebrating success. The fun part is the climb. Prepare your agency for joy in the day-to-day, not just in reaching the summit. Stop working weekends or into the evenings. Stop missing important events or skipping vacations. The trade-off is sacrificing daily operations for the joy of reaching the summit.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program enables you to take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Does your agency truly understand your clients' needs? Are you proactive about learning their business? Is your team constantly looking for new, innovative solutions? What can you do to earn clients’ trust to retain and even upsell them? Today’s guest has been an agency owner for 30 years and knows the business well. He understands which questions to ask to gain clients’ trust and teaches other agency owners to do the same. He’ll reveal what clients are looking for in an agency according to a recent survey.

Drew McLellan owns Agency Management Institute, which serves small to mid-scale agencies helping them grow. He's on the show sharing insight from a recent survey. Drew’s agency runs an annual survey where agency clients respond to focused questions that give agencies some insight into what they can improve to have a better relationship with them. This year, the survey focused on agencies’ struggles to grow their existing book of business.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• What do clients think about agencies?
• 4 things you can do to build better relationships with clients.
• 2 big mistakes you should avoid with clients.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

What Do Clients Think About Their Agency Relationship?

Most agency owners are great when it comes to their services but don’t have the tools to run a business profitably. Having run an agency for thirty years, Drew knows the industry well and now focuses on helping them.

His agency runs an annual research piece called the Agency Edge. In its ten-year history, they’ve mostly talked to people who hire agencies, as was the case this year. The central theme this year was agencies’ struggles to grow their existing book of business.

Clients are taking a longer time to hire agencies, and even once they’ve hired them, they’re slow to assign a first project. So how to get more from the clients you already have? Basically, the gist of the research was to get respondents to reveal how, when, and where they give an agency more money. The results were fascinating -- most fell into one of three categories:

• The ideal agency client: This is the client we all want to have. They want their agency at the table talking about strategy and truly believe they couldn’t run their business as well without the agency.
• The client looking for a specialist: This was the largest group, accounting for over 45% of the respondents. These are businesses that are pretty happy with their in-house team but are in need of extra sets of hands and depths of expertise in certain areas. They expect the agency to come in and partner with their team. They don’t expect them to get in on big-picture strategy.
• The client who thinks everything’s too expensive: This was fortunately the smallest group. These clients see agencies as a necessary evil that is too expensive. If they could avoid giving an agency more money, they will choose to do that.

Naturally, the research focused on the first two groups, which are the ones likely to spend more money on agencies.

What Do Clients Really Want From Their Agency?

No matter the different topics they’ve covered over the years, Drew and his team keep finding these same groups. The undesirable clients who see agencies as money-sucking machines are thankfully always the minority.

However, Drew does note this was the first year where that minority came off very strongly about their views. This might be an indication that brand leaders are becoming more leery about partnerships. Moreover, there are now more agencies out there than ever before, which means there are more bad agencies too. With more people out there who don’t know how to market and adequately provide a service, it drowns out the good ones. This creates a rejection of the concept of agency, which leads to businesses trying to avoid that label.

In terms of how to identify these client categories, they’re actually spread across the board. Businesses that want agencies as a partner could be big brands or small startups.

Overall, clients want an agency partner who really tries to understand their business. Basically, they want the agency to care enough about their business to come up with good ideas; even if those ideas don’t necessarily impact the agency. This could be a problem when account people are order takers who don’t understand the clients’ business and don’t know which questions to ask to have insights into their business problems.

4 Things You Can Do to Build Better Relationships With Clients

1. Learn more. Based on survey responses, agency owners could invest more time and energy learning how their clients do their work. This can mean a number of things like case studies or helping your client do customer research. Yes, this is a huge time investment on the agency's part. However, failing in-depth understanding relegates you to an order-taker role by your own doing.
2. Meet your clients. Even if you’re a virtual agency you should get out there and meet your clients in person, especially in the onboarding process. There's still no substitute for face time in this post-pandemic era with so many ways to connect virtually. It’s hard to develop more than surface-level trust when you’ve never even been in the same room as that person.
3. Ask more questions. Drew believes agency owners tend to stop themselves from asking questions. They assume the client knows their business well, so if they say they want an app or a tradeshow booth, all too often the answer is “Okay, we’ll do that for you”. It’s okay to at least ask simple questions like: "Why?" or "Is there a better way to spend that budget?" Just dig a bit into the reasons behind what they’re asking. More than half the time they need something, but are wrong about what that something is.
4. Be proactive. Clients want their agencies to be proactive and not wait around for them to place an order. Many agencies shy away from this because it feels pushy; however, the message that came across loud and clear is that clients will give agencies more money when agencies give them a good reason to spend more money.

2 Big Mistakes Some Agencies Make with Clients

Out of all the groups, it was especially important for the second one – clients looking for a specialist –to find an agency that respects their team. It’s important to understand the ecosystem of how the business works, who’s on the team, and where you can lend a hand. Overall, the message was “don’t overstep your bounds”.

Clients were clear about how much they dislike agencies that come in and try to prove they’re smarter than the internal team. Collaboration will get you better results because these companies think highly of their internal team. This also goes for getting into a meeting and immediately starting to use technical terminology. You obviously want clients to think you’re smart but you won’t get far by making them feel dumb.

Big Takeaways: More Time with Agency Owners and Being Assertive

Still focusing on the first two groups, it’s important to mention these clients wanted more interaction with the agency owner. This doesn’t necessarily mean the agency owner will be working on their business on a day-to-day basis. It just means they want the agency owner to check in and know what the team is doing and can be a sounding board for them.

Overall, the big takeaway from the survey is that clients are open to agencies being more assertive in bringing more ideas to clients. They want those ideas and most of them do have more money to give to agencies and are eager to do so if they demonstrate they really understand their business.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

We've all seen tech companies explode in popularity and valuation. How can your digital agency get a piece a sweet tech venture? Check out how one agency owner is out there successfully building technology and simultaneously running a digital marketing agency -- and crushing it at both.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to build technology at your digital agency.
• One unique method to create tons of internal content.
• #1 growth tip for new agency owners.

Today, I talked with Bhanuka Harischandra, Founder and CEO of Surge.Global — a digital marketing and tech agency in Sri Lanka. Bhanuka's agency does everything from video to mobile to content and even SEO... but they also build tech. So, while half of Surge Global is helping businesses scale with marketing, the other half is scaling tech projects and creating tech companies. Bhanuka is here to tell us how to build tech at your agency and use it to grow and scale your business.

How to Successfully Build Technology at Your Digital Agency

Tech revenue is tempting, am I right? We see these tech startups with 5 employees that scale to $500 million in a few years and it's mind-blowing. So, as an entrepreneur, you may be trying to balance your desire to chase tech with your love for agency work. Guess what? You don't have to decide between them. Instead, you can build tech and build your agency at the same time.

It's all about keeping a balance. Bhanuka's advice is to hire two separate teams. Your agency team should not develop tech projects. You need a separate R&D team to help build external and internal tech projects.

You can even create an incubator. Hire some developers to work on different projects, see which ones take off, and then scale the winners up. Bhanuka transitions R&D teams with great products into their own business and his agency remains a shareholder. It helps keep everyone focused on their unique task.

One Unique Method to Create Tons of Internal Content

Creating internal content can be a serious pain for agency owners. Here's the thing — it's super necessary to have internal content for your team to rally around. You probably have access to some great content creators; they just need a little motivation.

Bhanuka got his team to produce over 700 pieces of content in 30 days by gamifying content creation. He built an app and made a contest out of creating content. The team member who created the most content within a month would win $500. Second and third places were promised monetary prizes, too. And he compared everyone on a leaderboard to the team could view results in real-time.

In the end, Surge only paid out $800 for 700 pieces of content. That's what I call a bargain!

Here's what's awesome — Surge now has the app they developed out for other clients to use. (You can check out the app at Rallied.io)

#1 Growth Tip for New Agency Owners

It's been nearly unanimous from my podcast guests. The #1 piece of advice is learning to say no. But, it's about more than just saying no... It's knowing how to prioritize and say no to the wrong things so you can say yes to the right things. Even Bhanuka admits his agency almost went under by saying yes to the wrong things. He says always vet your prospects before they become clients and determine:

• Are they a good fit for your niche?
• Can you and your team get along with them?
• Are they a culture match with your agency?
• Will payment be received on time?
• Are they reliable and responsive?
• And, most of all, do they have realistic expectations (remember NBAT!)?

If the answer to any of these is no, then you need to say no to working with this prospect.

Are you worried you can't grow a successful agency without a large team? Are you looking for a way to provide a better, more efficient experience for your clients? When it comes to running an agency, bigger isn't always better.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• Does agency team size matter?
• How to grow profits without growing your team.
• Why project-based agencies shouldn't take retainers.

Today I sat down with Jon Paley, owner of The Vault, an ad agency/production company based out of New York City. Jon's agency runs off a fairly small team (10 people), yet manages to bring in 8-figures. He's here to discuss why he chooses to keep a smaller team and how he has used it to his advantage.

Does Agency Team Size Matter?

When I talk to agency owners, there are usually two metrics they use to measure success — profits and the number of people on their team. There's a common misconception that as you grow, you need to increase the size of your team. But if you've been listening to me for a while, you've probably heard me talk about the way a small team can work to your advantage.

When Jon created his agency, he had one thing in mind, to remove the typical agency bureaucracy. With larger agencies, it often feels like you have to go through layer after layer just to talk to the right person. Jon knew if he hired the right people, his agency could do a lot more with less. Without all the layers and red tape, Jon can quickly determine if a client is a good fit, and if his team has what it takes to take a project on. In the end, the team is more productive, the clients are happier, and Jon can be confident his agency delivers what the client expects.

How to Grow Profits without Growing Your Team

I hear you, "but what if my client needs something my team can't do?" This is when it makes sense to work with freelancers. In most cases, the quality of work is great and you aren't stuck with the overhead of a permanent employee. So how can you make freelancers work for you?

• Determine who's essential on your team. Your account managers and team executives should be full-time employees. These are the people who know your brand, understand your vision, and help you build important client relationships.
• Build a database of preferred freelancers. Just because a person's not on your payroll, doesn't mean you can't work with them frequently. Create a database of freelancers who consistently knock it out of the park so you'll know where to turn first when you have a specific need.

Why Project-Based Agencies Shouldn't Take Retainers

Jon says he's noticed some agencies claim they are a project-based firm but structure their relationships based on a retainer. When you do this, you're not operating from a place of success. These relationships have very different demands.

Many agencies move to a retainer structure because they want more predictability. But if you focus on building the pipeline full of projects, you'll find you can have the same type of success. Plus, you'll find many of your clients are referrals from previous project clients.

You don't always need to focus on building a bigger team to find continued growth. Much of the time, it's not about how many people are on your team, but rather who is on your team. When you focus on quality instead of quantity, everything else will fall into place.

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Do you charge for strategy or give it away for free? Are your prospects aware of the value of your thinking and research? Charging for strategy benefits both the agency and the client but so many give it away. However, when you charge for strategy, you'll grow faster and easier. Instead of giving away value for free, you can improve your processes and offer a highly detailed offer and a productized option. Today's guest found himself in this situation as his agency started to grow. He feels one of his biggest mistakes was not charging for strategy sooner. Now his team gets paid for thinking as well as doing. Here's how you too can charge for your brainpower right now.

Spencer Powell is the owner of Builder Funnel, a strategic marketing agency focused on helping design-build remodelers and custom home builders achieve sustainable business growth. With a combination of inbound marketing, software, and proven strategy, they shorten their clients' path to revenue and profit goals.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Why giving away strategy is a mistake.
• Agency and client benefits of charging for strategy.
• Giving your sales team tools for success.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Why You Should Get Paid for Strategy

Spencer’s journey in the agency industry started twelve years ago. Not knowing a lot about the business, he made mistakes early on. One of his biggest mistakes was not charging for strategy. Building a highly specialized offer and charging for strategy completely transformed the agency. So how did he turn it around and start getting paid for the thinking and the doing?

Like any new agency, the first years are all about gaining clients’ trust and figuring things out. That is why giving away strategy didn’t seem like a big mistake at the time. A couple of years down the line, however, they became much more focused and experienced. Spencer realizes now they should’ve started charging for strategy.

Their process includes looking into clients’ Google Analytics and putting together a custom game plan which took significant “thinking time”. So they add that time into the proposal. According to Spencer, it is part of the plan they present and it makes sense to include it in the proposal. He wants his proposals to have some element of customization to them. Adding "thinking" and research is a logical part of creating a really good plan.

The Agency and Clients Both Benefit When You Charge for Strategy

The shift to charging for strategy is fairly recent for Spencer's agency. It all started with setting the goal of becoming the best agency for remodelers and custom builders. They picked a very narrow niche and started working towards that north star.

Spencer knows ensuring that #1 spot would take a lot of groundwork to create a sound strategy and great execution plan. As they listed all the things they should do to create the best possible plan, the steps kept increasing. It was a good opportunity to justify charging for strategy. When strategy is billable, they’re able to spend an appropriate amount of time on it.

In hindsight, their free strategies weren’t customized enough. All their clients got similar steps to follow. Now, they take a few weeks to review a clients’ analytics and come up with a custom, detailed 12-month plan.

Building a Sales Team and Giving Them the Tools to Success

Two or three years down the line Spencer realized the need for salespeople selling custom marketing plans. But what level of knowledge and experience would his agency sales team need? Do they need to know the remodeling industry? How to sell and market within it? He was convinced he would never find salespeople with this specific expertise, so he decided to productize.

Now, Spencer is three months into hiring his first salesperson. When hiring, he didn’t look for agency experience. He specifically searched for a person with experience in their niche The new addition to the team worked out perfectly and he can already see the benefits. However, you can take someone who’s really good at sales and teach them the industry and services if you have the right systems in place.

With a productized offer, salespeople learn how to manage sales objections and value points. Eventually, as CEO you only need to assist with sales to add color and track progress. The key is to provide them with a solid process and the right tools.

Stories as part of the toolkit. Why is the agency owner always so good at sales? Because they have the stories and can use them on sales calls to draw in prospects with details on how they helped past clients. When you start sharing those stories with your sales team they’ll start seeing results right away. Eventually, they’ll have their own stories.

Shorten Your Sales Cycle and Increase Your Closing Ratio

Back when they improved their processes and stopped offering strategy for free the agency’s sales cycle was around 3 to 4 months. Their closing ratio has definitely improved since then. According to Spencer, this is most likely thanks to the positioning of a blueprint. Prior to the change, they were positioned from a brand perspective thanks to their niche. However, they still offered a list of deliverables similar to everyone else. Now, they have a $20K offer that includes an extensive questionnaire and a 4-week period to get a detailed plan with 12 months of deliverables.

That blueprint is presented to the client who has the option to implement it themselves. They get access to the agency’s training videos and SOPs to execute the plan. Companies under $2 million and over $15 million end up executing the steps in the blueprint internally. But the middle sector is Spencer's target. They’ll almost always move forward with the agency to implement the blueprint.

Filling Your Pipeline by Creating a Community

Overall, Spencer's agency is closing the same percentage of retainer deals and unlocking another option for people who want to self-implement. The feedback has been great because many people actually want to learn to do their own marketing. As an aside, they’ve also launched a website theme for their target industry based on conversion principles, layouts for portfolios, about us, etc. It’s modeled as a design-build approach mirroring their industry.

These options have also led Spencer and his team to create a community of companies learning to market with their tools. This fills their pipeline with prospects that can afford to pay for the agency for marketing services in a couple of years.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program enables you to take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Are you struggling to retain employees? Do you know how to keep scaling without burning through talent? When Robert Glazer started Acceleration Partners, he always had a vision of working with an international team. Now, his agency, which is focused on managing partnership and affiliate programs for high-growth brands, has 300 employees in eight different countries. Robert joined Jason in this episode to talk about how he avoids burning through talent, how he trains his employees to ask why, and what he invested in to get beyond the referral stage.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Beyond the referral stage. Robert ran a referral-based agency for about 15 years. Of course, it couldn’t last forever and eventually, they started focusing more on sales and marketing so he and his partner would be less overwhelmed by the sales aspect. It’s a stage every agency will go through and they faced it by investing in leadership, having great marketing, and great delivery. In the end, they have exponential revenue growth from the time they started scaling the sales and marketing team and hired a fully integrated sales and marketing team.
2. On not burning through talent. With an agency that has been in Glassdoor's best places to work, what have they focused on when building their culture? Robert says they always had a vision of working remotely with employees from different countries. They have also focused on offering a work environment where employees can grow professionally, which is one of the main reasons people leave their jobs. In the end, agency life is not for everyone, some will love its unpredictable nature and others won’t, but Robert made sure to create a culture that does not reward overworking employees unnecessarily and offers flexible hours.
3. Asking why. On the subject of them not rewarding working extra hours with little results, Robert explains they have resorted to training employees to ask why. Why does the client need this data by tomorrow? Could this be solved any other way? Do they really need everything they think they need? “Don’t assume, because they're asking for something that it's the right thing or you can't explain to them the trade-off or explain the consequences,” he says.

Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease in their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

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Scaling Your Agency Faster Without Burning Through Talent

{These transcripts have been auto-generated. While largely accurate, they may contain some errors.}

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here and I have another great episode where we're going to talk about how you can scale your agency rapidly without burning through a ton of talent, because all of us have been going through and going, how do we keep employees and how do we find the right talent?

And on today's episode, I have a guest that's going to talk exactly about that, that's done this. So let's go ahead and jump into the episode.

Hey, Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert: [00:00:32] Thanks for having me, Jason.

Jason: [00:00:33] Yeah. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Robert: [00:00:36] Uh, yeah, I'm Bob Glazer. I'm the founder and the chairman of the board of Acceleration Partners. Acceleration Partners is the largest global independent agency focused on managing partnership and affiliate programs for well-known and high-growth brands.

Uh, we have almost 200 clients and, uh, I think, uh, getting close to 300 employees across eight countries and we manage programs across 25 different countries.

Jason: [00:01:02] Very cool. And so how did you start the agency? What made you fall into this?

Robert: [00:01:08] Uh, like most agency owners… No, I don't know anyone who started the agency intentionally. I just, you know, I started doing some work in the affiliate space.

I found a lot of problems with it. I started helping a company fix its program. Uh, that company ended up being a huge success. It was called Tiny Prints. Sold them to Shutterfly for $300 million.

People then spread out from that and start saying, hey, can we do that thing that you helped us with there? And then I couldn't do enough of those. So I hired some people, so, and sort of the rest was history from there. So we were very, for years, just all referral-based, uh, word of mouth, you know, 15 years. It's really in the last five years that we've had kind of sales and marketing a little bit before.

Jason: [00:01:47] So, what were some of the stages that you went through, you know, in order, like, obviously go through the referral stage, right? And you only can get to a certain plateau. And I feel a lot of people listening to the show right now, you know, are at that level, right. They're kind of plateaued, you know, it could be at 5 million, 10 million, whatever it is, they're plateaued, but you have to do something different.

What were the things that you guys did different?

Robert: [00:02:10] We invested a lot in thought leadership, content marketing. We wrote a book that was the first in our industry called Performance Partnerships. So we really focused on having great… someone sent me the barbell strategy, having great marketing, having great delivery, which drove the word of mouth.

Eventually, though, you know, we were like, look, we don't want to sell or need to sell. Eventually, myself and Matt who is now CEO who is the VP of client services, we're just handling sales calls all day. So even if they were inbound, right, then you had to talk to these people. And we were, you know, the people that called us, we answered the phone, but we weren't following up with them and checking in and the things that you need to do to keep, uh, a sales pipeline moving.

So eventually we started to acquiesce. It was like, look, even if we don't want to be cold calling people like this is a lot of, I find, to manage. But from the time we started scaling the sales and marketing team and now with a fully integrated sales and marketing team, I mean, we will, we will sell more this year revenue than we did in our for… Our revenue growth this year will be more than our first 10 years, right? Combined.

So it takes a while to get those pieces working. You can go either way. Again, it depends on the type of business you want to build. I wanted to establish our marketing before our sales, like, get the demand going, but, you know, I've seen the opposite approach work too where you get account development and people calling and doing that.

We had a really good referral pipeline and we thought that that thought leadership would also help on the conversion of, you know, the people who are examining us.

Jason: [00:03:39] Gotcha. So what have you seen work to allow you to scale rapidly without burning through talent?

Robert: [00:03:45] Yeah, look, it's hard in this business. Paradoxically, I would say, you know, we, we started by sort of in the premise, you know, five or 10 years ago that people aren't gonna stay here forever and turning that into sort of an open conversation and, you know, having a productive alumni group. But we've, we've actually always been remote. We focused on having sort of a world-class, uh, culture.

We spent a lot of time and energy on our culture have been in Glassdoor's best places to work a few years. And look, agency life is not for everyone, but what's interesting is people who come here from other agencies really say to us, this is really different.

Some people are a lot of people, realize agency is not right for them. Maybe that's not the work that they want. So we've done a lot to really screen the type of person who likes that fast growth, high pace. You are serving clients. If you don't like client service, probably not a great role, but they like the kind of unpredictability and working on something new and different.

I think that the biggest thing that keeps your talent around is investing in your talent and helping them grow and develop. That's one of the reasons we are a growth firm and that growth has allowed for, you know, I think we've had 87 seven promotions last year or something like that, you know, across our team.

So for people to see that, oh, that person started associate and manager and now they are a director or VP. And that, that path is available to them. I think these days people leave for two reasons. They don't, they don't like their manager, maybe three reasons, they don't like what they're doing or they just don't, they're not growing or don't see a path for them.

I don't think anyone here is blocked. I mean, that's one of the nice things. If you go up 30% a year for a while, as we have, there's just new roles available every year. No, no one is blocked on their development path.

Jason: [00:05:31] So when someone joins from another agency, what do they say it's different?

Robert: [00:05:35] I think that… look, there's an interesting expectation gap. I actually think the last year has really shown some almost generational gaps in the workplace. We didn't see it before, you know, for better, for worse. I think some gen Z or people coming out now, I mean, they just, they think a 35 hour or 40 workweek is, is a work. That's the workweek and the expectation isn't above that.

Some people want to learn and be exposed to a lot of things and understand that they're going to have to do that. But I think the biggest difference… so, so look there's times when there's a lot of work or whatever proposal was due and clients are, but we generally want to solve these problems. We generally don't want people, they don't work weekends. They don't work nights.

And so what I've heard people express is at other agencies, people just didn't care if I was working 18 hours a day and they didn't care if I was burnt out or work weekends. They're like, no one wants that here. No, one's asking me to do that. But again, I think we all have to be honest, and this is the nature of the business. Sometimes if there's a million-dollar proposal and the client wants it on a Monday morning, someone's probably going to be working on that on a Sunday night.

Like I, I, to me, that's the trade-off of flexibility. The other side is you want to go watch your kid's soccer game on a Friday afternoon? Like you can do like awesome. Go do that.

So I think that's the biggest difference is people feel really supported. We are not celebrating. We actually talk culturally, we celebrate work performance, marketing, and we get paid how well these programs do. So we talk culturally about, we don't reward working hard. We reward working smart.

I've seen people work a hundred hours a week and not get a lot done and really exhaust themselves and those around them. So I think that's the difference. If you haven't worked in an agency before, agency life can feel different. If you have, I think there's some ones who… again, it's a badge of honor to pull it all night, or I don't think anyone's ever done that in history of our company.

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Well, I mean, there's lots of people out there that talk about how much they work and how much they hustle. And that's really all they do. And that's perfectly fine for them. But I know when I'm working with agencies and I know when I'm running this business or the other agency, it's like, look, I want to do it smart.

I want to be able to maintain, to take off Monday and Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and only work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. That's what I want. And then you have to figure that out. Like in our mastermind, we were chatting at the end of the year, we were talking about what are the things we're going to say no to, in order to really like set the goal around time.

Your goal should be around your time, not around money because you always sacrifice money. And that always makes a big difference. Cause yeah, I remember out of school I worked for Arthur Anderson and that was like a badge of honor to see how many hours, you know, oh, you got to 80 hours a week? I got a hundred hours a week. I'd be like, you're an idiot.

Robert: [00:09:24] We actually train around asking, you know, why a lot. And when a client asks for panic for a ridiculous amount of things last minute, you go to them and you say, well, why do you need…? Well, my boss, I have a new boss starting tomorrow. And I wanted them to have this two years of data. And he said, hey, how about we give them X, Y, and Z?

And like, I don't want to reward the person spending 10 hours on something they didn't need to do, because it didn't produce a better outcome and it exhausted them. If they could solve that problem in a half an hour by asking why, what do you need? You know, a lot of times, I think it's explaining to clients too what that means.

Yes, we can chase those new to new markets, but you realize that mean the core launch mark is then aren't going to get the same support? And they'll say, well, can we do both? Can't… no, so we can either double the team or we can, I think a lot of times it actually if you're an agency that provides great services, your biggest problem is that your teams don't know how to say no well, or sort of put a lid on scope creep and they over-deliver.

And by the way, what happens when you overdeliver in an agency? I go look at the PNL at the end of the month and not only is the employee upset, but we haven't made any money. So that's a lose, lose.

Jason: [00:10:36] Well, yeah. And the clients are getting overwhelmed by all the stuff that you just provided them. And a lot of times they get confused, which means they're going to leave. So you just burn out your clients.

Robert: [00:10:45] Don’t assume, because they're asking for something it's the right thing or you can't explain to them the trade-off or explain the consequences. Again, if they say, well, let's chase this city and that city, are you okay if that deteriorates the results on the existing two cities?

Well, if it's one of these things where it's 99, 1% and it's oh, when you put it that way, I know I don't want to put those campaigns at risk at all.

Jason: [00:11:08] Yes. Awesome. Well, Robert, this has been great. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Robert: [00:11:14] Yeah, just in terms of, I think thinking about where you want your agency to go in terms of determining how you want to run it, right? I think there are a bunch of different paths, particularly, you know, there are a lot of people exiting these days, and I think there's a specific set of things that you need to do and understand your industry if you want to move towards that outcome.

Jason: [00:11:33] Let's go over a couple of those. What's important in your eyes?

Robert: [00:11:37] A couple of things. Cause you might hear from your friends who have SAS businesses or otherwise, but agencies are sold on EBIT. They are not sold on revenue. They're not sold on customers or clients or other things they're sold on trailing 12 month EBIT.

So, first of all, you can get over the fact that you haven't started a SAS business, you know, and your friend did, and he sold it for 10 times sales. And then you need I, so I think the two things that I see really hurt the most… one is not having everything relying on the founder, right? These are the things that impact valuation. Understanding that trailing 12 months EBITDA is the primary driver and then having a proper cost accounting for your business.

The amount of agencies I've seen who don't have for gross margins correctly, who aren’t putting, you know, the actual people cost of doing the works in a gross margins. Like this is kind of finance 101. You can't, if the people are delivering the service, then that is, you know, you can't say you have a hundred percent gross margin and operating expenses, it doesn't, it doesn't present an accurate picture.

And I would also encourage everyone out there to, you know, if you're an owner-operator, pay yourself a market salary in the business and then take the profits, so that you have a proper PNL. Because we, we've gone to look at businesses and they say their profits’ a million dollars in EBITDA, and then there's three founders taking $30,000 a year. Well, those financials are not accurate. And then you're very upset, but your evaluation is not going to be there.

So those are three of the things I would really encourage people to do if they're thinking about an exit down the line.

Jason: [00:13:07] What do you see the multiples being in? Uh, you know, I've seen them as ranges, so let's say you're under a million in EBITDA. What's the multiple?

Robert: [00:13:15] Yeah. So I built a chart on this for marketing agencies. I'm happy to share it with you. So under a million in EBITDA, I mean, right now it's hard, but it could be two to four times EBITDA with a heavy earn-out. Because again, under a million EBITDA, the owners, probably the head of marketing head of sales. I wouldn't expect them to get more than 50% of that upfront.

I think two to 3 million in EBITDA these days, maybe 5, 6, 7, you know, the first inflection point, major inflection point, is 5 million in EBITDA. And I think, you know, healthy agencies have 5 million EBITDA with recurring revenue, you know, business are, are going for 10 times plus EBITDA these days.

Jason: [00:13:58] Yeah, what we'll do is anything under a million in EBITDA is usually one to two X EBITDA. A million to 3 million is usually four to six. Three to about, you know, six would be a little bit more. And then if you're over the 10 figure mark in EBITDA, then it's really write your own ticket, depending on a number of different things.

Robert: [00:14:20] Agencies over 10 million, 20 million are getting 20 times earnings some of them these days. But I think he made the point you made is really interesting. Again, this is why you need to focus on what your strategy is. The problem, it's hard to get one of those one to two times EBITDA deals done, because why would that founder sell when they can just have to hold on a business for two years?

But they haven’t created anything beyond themselves that has value. In fact, if the earnings of that $1 million EBITDA, you know, and they are the head of sales, the head of marketing, the head of whatever, that includes $400,000 of things that you'd need to pay for other people, then it's really 600,000. So that's the problem. That's why those deals don't get done.

Again, if I'm the seller, do I want to give up the…? You know, you wouldn't give up one time, EBIT if it's, unless you saw it, your business is going to collapse. And even too, he said, if I just held on for two years. So if you want to get real value for your business, it needs to be a valuable business beyond yourself. And the more that you can take yourself out of functions, you know, when you start having a marketing person, when you start having a salesperson and you're not on all the sales calls, these are the things that might get you up to a two to three from one to two.

Jason: [00:15:28] Yeah. My partners always get mad at me. A lot of times I talk people out and I'm like, look, you're not worth what you think you're worth, and if you are worth what you think you are, like, why do you want to sell? Like, there's lots of mastermind members that we've gotten to the level where they're the chairman and they're not in the day-to-day and they're getting millions of dollars every year.

So why would they sell?

Robert: [00:15:51] Let's say, it's, let's say it's a million-dollar EBITDA business and you're out of it, but it's just only a million of EBITDA, which again is not a lot of scale. And let's just say someone will pay two to three times for that. I mean, do you want to sell the golden goose or do you want to keep getting the eggs, right?

That becomes a tough, tough equation. But I think if you certainly don't want to get a deal done, you go to market and you tell everyone, you know, that you want evaluation either, or you're… An agency is an agency. There could be a hot segment, but they've all, every sale has been valued generally the same for the history of, of time.

And I think when you go to market and talk to people and your expectations are just nothing like the deals that are, I always say market-clearing prices. We hear a lot of rumors, right? We hear LOIs… 80% of deals I think don't close, right? So you hear a lot of headline LOI that didn't close. You don't know whether the headline number had earn-outs or not. It could have had five or six years of earn-outs.

And so I, the only prices and comps you can use or what I call market-clearing prices, not the rumor that your friend said, or the LOI that your other friend said, or otherwise.

Jason: [00:17:00] Yeah. Awesome. Well, Robert, what’s the agency website, people can go and check out?

Robert: [00:17:03] Yeah. It's probably easier to Google than it is to spell it all out. It's accelerationpartners.com. Uh, hopefully, we're doing a decent job at SEO and you put Acceleration Partners. I'm sure one of your SEO agencies listening will, uh, will give us a call and offer to fix.

Jason: [00:17:18] Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. And if you guys enjoyed this episode and you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see the things that you're not able to see and help you scale and grow and get to a point where you've really created the freedom in your agency, where you're making the profit. You don't have to make all the decisions. You don't have to have all the risks and your team is, you know, humming along. I'd love to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind for agency owners that are experienced.

Go there now and until next time have a Swenk day.

Do you have the crystal clear vision needed to take your agency to the next level? John Quinton-Barber describes himself as a visionary and accidental entrepreneur. He had 30 years of experience in the media and communications industry when he decided he wanted to set up his own business. After eight years, Social is now a top 20 UK agency. He joins Jason to talk about how he remained focused on the future and the crystal clear vision needed to continue growing your agency, some of the hurdles he has found along the way, and the importance of investing in leadership to focus on the key aspects of your agency’s past, present, and future.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Invest in the right people. The first years of a digital agency are about survival. John focused on keeping the agency running but, after hitting one million pounds, he realized it was no longer necessary or efficient that he took care of every aspect of the business. He started to invest in people to take care of yesterday (the processes, HR, IT, legal), someone to take care of today (making sure the agency creating great quality campaigns, working with clients, giving them the best service), and then focused on taking care of the future, which is about strategy, vision, and where you want to go.
2. Crystal clear vision. After deciding that he was not running a lifestyle business and getting serious about making something really special, John said he never looked back and never experienced doubts. A crystal clear vision will help your business thrive in hard times. If you don’t have that vision, you won’t get to the next stage. John admits he made many mistakes and that, by year four of his agency, he was barely making any profit and plowing every penny back into the business. But now, in year eight, he is reaping the rewards of investing in his dream.
3. Build up leadership. Finding the right people was key to keep the business running, but empowering them was crucial to keep the business growing. John’s mantra is “if you weren’t in the business for three months, would it run? And would it grow?” Recruiting can become difficult when you’re searching for leaders that can make this mantra happen, so John focused on building leaders within his organization. He makes sure that every director completes a year-long leadership course and has the tools to succeed as a leader. He no longer is the only one focusing on the future, on the vision, and that is the key to continue growing.

Sponsors and Resources

Ninja Cat: Today's episode is sponsored by Ninja Cat, a digital marketing performance management platform where you can unify your data, create beautiful, insightful reports and presentations that will help you grow your business. Head over to ninjacat.io/masterclass to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Trust Your Crystal Clear Vision Begin Investing in Leadership

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? I'm excited to bring you another episode of the Smart agency Masterclass. I have an amazing guest all the way across the pond in the UK. And he's going to talk about how he's been scaling his agency over the past eight years and some of the trials and tribulations.

Now, before we jump into the episode, I want you guys to take a screenshot, tag us on Instagram. And we'll give you a shout out, um, when the episode, uh, when, when you actually do that. So we can, uh, recognize you. So let's go ahead and get into the show.

Hey,  John. Welcome to the show.

John: [00:00:42] Jason, pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jason: [00:00:44] Yeah, man. I'm excited to have you on. So tell us who you are and what do you do?

John: [00:00:49] My name is John Quinton-Barber. It's quite a posh name. It's a UK name, John Quinton-Barber. And I'm the founder and chief executive of a marketing digital agency called Social, here in the UK.

Jason: [00:01:00] Awesome. And so how did you get started?

John: [00:01:04] Well, I've always… I’m 50 years of age. So about 30 years in media and communications and PR. And when I hit about 43 years of age I had this urge that I wanted to set my own business up. And probably quite a few of the listeners will be relating to this quite now. I had this urge but in the back of my mind I felt, I can't do it. I can't do it. And I just took the leap and did it.

So eight years ago I set up Social. Um, and what I wanted to do was just bring a different type of agency to the UK market. Because the agency world had gotten a little bit stale. It was offering PR, but it wasn't offering much else. Social was just about social media was just about emerging as the next big thing, next best thing.

So I took the plunge and set up the agency, um, with not, not, not a lot of money in my pocket, to be honest. Um, but a whole scope of confidence. And yeah, eight years on, we've gone from what I said about, talking about the dollars, about $10,000. To now about $5.5 million dollars after eight years.

So it’s been one journey from two people to 48 people right now. And there's a whole host of learnings.

Jason: [00:02:11] Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, it's… I remember kind of doing that jump, uh, you know, and there's many stages that you go through. Uh, if you think about it. And I always look at it as kind of like the stages of like climbing a mountain. Like at first you’re kind of like surveying of like, do I really want to climb that mountain? Or, you know, which mountain do I want to climb?

Um, what were, what were the stages that you went through over the past eight years that, um… were a point where you were like. I mean, were you ever at a point where you just was like, nah, this is not for me? Like, I want out. Or what… like describe some of the hard parts and how'd you get through them?

John: [00:02:51] I’ve never had that. Never, never had that moment, Jason, where this is not for me. It's always, I've always felt it's for me. It's quite, almost like a mission, really a zeal within me to make this work. Um, the pain points. So as we know, when you set an agency up, it's about survival. You know, I've got family, I've got two young children. They were two young children at the time.

It’s about survival. I need to bring the income in. And you find yourself doing everything, you know, planning the business, servicing the clients, uh, wiring the, uh, the IT of the desk, sorting out the HR and the finance. So, um, in the first two years, that's what life was like. And we hit a million, a million pounds, so about $1.5 million, in about a year three.

And that's when, for me, um, not the fun… Well, it was no longer, it wasn't fun anymore. But it was just like, oh my God. When it was about 10 people in the agency and we're bumping along about 1 million, life was good. You know, we could, we could, we all knew each other. We all knew each others’ strengths. We could work together.

But as soon as we hit that million-pound mark, that was it. We then had to refocus on actually, this is a business. And I had to make some decisions. Because I decided then it wasn't a lifestyle business. I was plowing back every bit of penny, every penny, back into the business. And taking a very modest salary. Because I had this vision that we can make this business into something really big and really special.

And that’s something I carry within me all the, all the while. And I’ll keep all the while until the end until the big events at the end.

Jason: [00:04:19] Well, I think… Yeah, no, I, I think you're, you really hit something I want to point out. You had a crystal clear vision.

A lot of us, when we get started in the agency, it's kind of accidental and we really don't know where we're going. We're just reacting to all the work coming to us.

And, but when you… and then I remember going through a pivotal point too, like you did of going all right, wow. It's like, you make this certain threshold and you're like, man, it's kind of not fun right now. Because the whole business has changed. But if I, if you don't have that vision of where you're going, you can't make it to the next part.

It's kind of like, if I want to reach the summit and you kind of get up to like what I call, like, you know, the, the crux, right? That's kind of like in the middle, right? You're in the climb and you're like, well, I kinda liked it back at base camp. Like that's where the party was.

But, uh, you know, talk about, you know, when you're at kind of that crux and you're going to like, Brett the million and a half, or, um, dollar mark. What did you have to do? Was it about building the team or…?

John: [00:05:31] It was, I mean, my, my kind of like epiphany came when who is my chairman now, and he's in his sixties, late sixties. And he's not a PR man. He’s a, he's a financer. And he said to me, he said, John, you created something special here. And you could, you could actually float this in years to come.

And I was like float with it? I mean, I had to Google float it. What’s that? Float it? You know, man, I'm trying to survive here. And that probably sowed the seed for actually the ambition I got. The belief I got in myself. So what I decided to do was okay, we, we, we’re hitting the million mark. I'm now going to have to invest in a team around me to do the HR, to do the finance, to do the day-to-day.

And I describe it like this, Jason, it's a… It’s my, I always, when people say to me, I want to set up a business I say, okay, you need somebody to look after yesterday. You need someone to look after today. And you look after tomorrow. And what I was doing, I was doing yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

What do I mean by that? Yesterday is basically someone that can sweep up after you. So basically all the kind of processes and the HR, the IT, and all the legals that on a business side becomes all consuming. Find somebody to look after yesterday. The today is about ensuring you're creating great quality campaigns, working with clients, giving them the best service, and ensuring that clients are happy. Clients are alright.

And the tomorrow is about strategy. It's about a vision. It's about where you want to go. And I just, again, as I said by year three, when this hit me and my God between a million and probably 2 million, the pain hit me. It hit me where it doesn't hurt. I mean, made loads of mistakes, loads of mistakes.

We’re in the UK, I’m in Manchester, which is in the north of England. And you know, the, the eye on the prize was let’s open a London office. You know, why? But, you know, we, we, we need to open a London office. And we opened a London office in year four and we shut it down in year five because we got it all wrong. We got the wrong people. We didn't have the right business strategy… We just approached it completely wrong.

Delighted to say today in 2021, we now have another London office and it's doing really well. So we live in those lessons.

Jason: [00:07:40] Yeah. I, I look at it as if you look at kind of three lines that an agency can be on, right? The first line… especially, you know, it happened what lasts last March, right?

A lot of people panicked and they kind of went into, you know, a fear-based mentality. And I look at those businesses. They're barely surviving. Like they've just gone straight down. And then I look at other agencies, and I've been in this spot in the agency world for a couple of years of running the agency.

You're kind of on this unfocused line and it's kind of the rollercoaster line…  Let's call it the rollercoaster line, right? And these are the preppers, uh, you know, these are the preppers of like saving up all the money and all that kind of stuff. And then you have, and I'm glad you mentioned focused on the strategy to the tomorrow. Let's call that the strategy line.

These are the people that are in kind of positioning mode of going, like, how do we, um, how do we take over, uh, you know, more market share? How do we, um, acquire more talent? How do we acquire, which we've talked about in the pre-show acquire more agencies, right? And you’re really kind of taking up another level.

So I want everyone listening or watching to go, what line or have you been on and what line do you want to be on? And hopefully you guys want to be on the strategy line, but you may be like, you have to be honest with yourself of going, are we on the rollercoaster line? Because the only difference you said was leadership.

John: [00:09:17] Yeah, no, we all, Jason, we're all on that. We all, we're all, you know, we all default back to those positions. You know, it's not, it's not all rosy and that's a model world, but I have to, you know, you have to dig deep. You have to dig deep in, in three things, in confidence, in your reserves, so your own health and wellbeing, because it’s a big journey. But then you have to dig deep into your pockets and you'll have to invest in people, the right people.

And I, you know, my, if you looked at my business about four years ago, you'd go, John, you know, you're barely making a profit. You're growing quickly. You're making it. You're spending quite a lot of money on the setting, so, business development team, finance, team, HR at a really quality number two guy. But you know, is costing me, uh, you know, it's a decent salary.

Um, but that was that investment is now starting to pay off. We have got in our business now, eight PNLs. So we've had to really bolt on PNL's and you know, we're now starting to see the world.

But the, the mindset for that is, you know, is sacrifice. You have to make the sacrifice. It's almost like when I hit year four, it felt like year one again, because I was having to kind of on this cycle of sacrifice. And now I'm on year eight and I am reaping the rewards. And so my, my message to anyone listening is if you've got a growth journey and growth plan, just go for it.

Get the right talent. No, not the talent, not necessarily gonna deliver, you know, the, the, for the clients. The talent that is going to deliver for you sitting by your side to help you grow and scale your business.

Jason: [00:10:50] Yeah. I love that. You said kind of invest in your company. And, and a lot of times people will misunderstand me a lot of times when I say, hey, the only thing that matters in your agency is your profit margin. And are you making money?

That matters when you get closer to having an exit or, you know, liquidity event later on. But in the middle or in the beginning, I'm like, invest as much as you possibly can because you totally control everything. Like you can put money in the stock market, and I encourage you guys to do that as well, but that's you don't control any of it.

It's like literally bet on red bet on black, you know, it's, I mean, it's a little more calculated. But with your agency, you can totally control the situation way better than anything else. So if you're listening, make sure you're investing heavily. You don't have to have 32% profit margins year over year.

I know a lot of people reach out and they're like, I'm worried I'm at 15. Like, well, you're not even close to selling, so don't worry about it.

John: [00:11:56] Awesome. No, it's true. It's true. And it's, um, you know, I, I do a lot of reading, obviously around some of the most successful companies. And you know, the successful companies didn't make a profit until, I said, you know, two years for listing or, or selling.

And profit isn't really important if you… and I keep telling colleagues if you want to makes it grow. But you know, my, my mindset when I, it's interesting, my, my pits, some peer agencies in the UK that I… I would have a drink with and we chat too.

And, um, sometimes I look at them through real kind of like, uh, envious glasses because you know, they're out having holidays four or five times a year, pre-COVID and… And that’s great, you know, I'm all for that. I'm all for the lifestyle business. I think that's fantastic. You made a decision. But for me, it's just, as I said before, Jason, is quite a mission with me.

I've got a mission and I'm going to make it, it's going to happen. I will scale this business and I'll take it to the UK A market. Uh, because I believe with that we've got a great proposition for investors. The one thing that, um, Jason, again, you'll be, you'll be so familiar with this is that culture of people.

So while this is all happening with today, tomorrow and yesterday and invest in the center, um… we ha, I had to make sure that that Social probably has to be one of the best agencies to work for. Um, to say we invested a lot in the culture is wrong. It sounds like it's forced. We nurtured the culture that we were creating and we've got fantastic culture now.

And I know every business owner says that and that, you know, generally have. And we continue to invest in that now with our people. Um, so the pandemic, uh, for, for us, didn't really hit us. You know, we, we grew through the pandemic, both financially… and we added nine new people during the pandemic year. So, but kind of how I think the… all that, all that groundwork in the first five years helped us through this tricky year.

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Why I know some people, like, you know, they're on the strategy line and usually you can accelerate your growth in a time like this. And they're literally, like, we don't want this to end because we're like, we're just reaping the benefits, uh, you know, for it. So let's talk about kind of like the transition from building the right team, right?

So I look at that as kind of when you're building the right team, you're, you're in the crux. But then, kind of the next level up, I look at the crest and you're starting to build the leadership team. So let's talk about that because not many people do. Um, what are you, what… what does your leadership team look like?

And, and how did you go about building it? Like what was, and would you go in the right order? The same order? So a lot of times people go marketing sales or do sales and marketing, you know, operations, that kind of stuff.

John: [00:16:03] Well, for me, the first, the first kind of… the first again Eureka moment or epiphany moment for me was, uh, the operations side of it. Um, and so I brought in who is my number two now, Rob, managing all of the operations side of operations side of the business. And that was the, the first kind of key hire in this space. We are now a leadership team of nine across the business, um, head solve and directors.

Um, and you know, that that team has taken time to build. And that team is, you know, we're a trusting team. Um, we work well together. We also get friction, which is, which is healthy I see. Uh, and I believe in, but yeah, the, for me, it was very much about operations, operations, you know, the business had to operate, um, and had to operate effectively.

So bring that person in. I had a mantra about, and this is a really good test for anyone who's listening, the mantra is if you weren’t in the business for three months, would it run? And would it grow? B. And obviously your priority is it has to run, so get it right. Make sure. And it's a good exercise to do is visualize.

But just don't be happy with it running, it’s got to grow. So what do you need to make it grow? So to make it run, I brought the right people in and then to make it grow, I've empowered the people in the business. They need to make it grow. Not just me.

Um, and again, I'm off after next week for a whole month now. I'm taking a sabbatical. My phone is off. My everything's off. They can’t get ahold of me unless it’s burning down and that's the first time in eight years.

But again, um, and again, I really want to reach out to anyone who's listening who's in that, in that probably two, three, four year phase. Just stick at it, because you get the right people and the right counsel and advice as any business, you can make it.

Jason: [00:17:55] Yeah, I look at it as… And, um, and I'm actually showing a lot of our mastermind around this now of going, what are the things, if you audit your calendar for the past couple of weeks… What are the things that totally drain you? Which are the things that give you energy? And then when you look at the ones that drain you, because that's the things that like, you have too many of those that's when you're like, screw it. I'm outta here.

Like, I don't want to do it anymore. All right. Or let me sell for this low valuation. I'm just, I'm done. Um, which you benefit from when buying. You know, you're like, oh, you've got low energy? I'll buy you, right? So if you guys are in the UK, obviously, go check them out. Um, but what I tell people is look at the low energy and then outsource or delegate or hire for that stuff.

Like, I, I don't know why we always hire for things we don't have any clue on… like on. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, I've been guilty of this. I'll be like, I know nothing about pay-per-click. Let me go hire someone to do pay-per-click. Rather than like, I know everything about UX so let me hire UX, because I can manage that. And then figure out a process like it's just, it's just goofy.

Um, what are some things… switching focus a little bit, what do you do in order to build your leaders within the organization? Because you know, at our top level masterminds, we're always talking about that.

And also recruiting, recruiting is a really big thing. Like we cannot find enough people, it seems like. So how are you building leaders and then is recruiting your biggest issue too?

John: [00:19:34] Uh, on building the leaders. It's, uh, it's important that we've got the program. So if you there's a few ways, we went with an external provider who does a year-long leadership course and I send…

I, I want to say congratulation to my leaders that I'm dead proud of them. Uh, got the card here… the cards are there.  Um, so I went through it, I went through it, uh, three years. And now quite a lot of my, well, all my leads will be going through it. Um, and that's a day, month commitment for them.

And they have, you know, they, they, they, all the topics are from culture to finance, to leadership, to behaviors. Um, I make people go through that process and I see them during the year just grow and blossom which is fantastic. And then I encourage them individually to find a mentor that's not me, someone that I can confide in probably about me, you know.

If you want to moan and groan about me and they need someone external so they can have that. Again, we have identified a person for them in their life. Um, and you know, the, the company pays for that, it, it's a paid thing. So that you can never get enough, all the external kind of like counsel.

Myself, I have a mentor, I’ve had one for five, six years. I belong to a board, the top of the alternative board, which when I was in America, I sit on the alternative board every month. And I just sit there and cry about people and money, cause that's always come up.

But, um, but yeah, so leadership for me is I want to just, you know, embrace that. I said to my, one of my colleagues today, my strategy here is to get you working less and your reward going up every year. And that's what we've got to get through as a leader. And if you're working less in the business, then you know, you're, you're winning for me.

Jason: [00:21:24] Yep. And then what about recruiting? Is that a, a big challenge for you guys like finding enough talent?

John: [00:21:30] Absolutely. It really is. It's a, you know, to the point where it depends on the, it depends on the, on the area you’re recruiting. So imagine digital social that's really, really sought after for obvious reasons. And that's challenging to recruit in them areas. So we want to, we want to do a blend of three things.

We want to grow our own, um, so grow our people that we've already got into business. Because, you know the’re very valuable to us, not just in monetary terms, but, just in, in their futures. We want to, I think mentioned before we were looking to acquire an agency. So we're looking, you know, where we can’t, where we can't build a team because the talent pool, looking for jobs or employment isn't there.

We're looking now just to, to hire, to, to acquire a boutique agency, particularly in the digital space. Um, and the third, the third area is looking at apprenticeships. So we're looking at bringing kids out of school and instead of kids going to, we call it school, university straight to us and we'll run a program with them.

So that's something we're looking at for the next, for the next eighteen months. I I'm glad to hear, or we shouldn't be really glad to hear, that it's the same in America. But the talent is just strange. We’re going through a strange time.

Jason: [00:22:45] Well, uh, what we found, you know, in our agency and, and all the other agencies in the mastermind is when you get to a certain level… And it's around about 3 million you're you're cause you've, you've built an amazing team, you're building the leadership team.

But it's hard to continue to find really, really good people. And it takes them a while in order to adapt to all the processes that you have. And so a lot of times what we'll do is we'll say like, kind of like, we’ll bring someone in on the junior program and show them a couple of tracks.

You can go kind of the skilled track, or you can go the manager track and then show them the different layers or levels that they can go up, you know. And it makes a huge difference because you know, like I'm thinking of, of Zach's agency now, like to train their account strategist, it usually takes about two years.

Right? Like, so you got to start thinking two years prior, like how do we get all these people up? And it makes a really big difference. So, yeah. It's, I always love when I chat with people all around the world. And they're like, yeah, it's very different over here. I'm like we get all the same issues.

John: [00:24:02] Good to know. Yeah, it is, I imagine. And it’s about to how much, I mean, one of the things is obviously pay reward is very important. Isn't it? Of course, but actually culture again, progression L&D. If I'm honest, you know, our lead in development is just catching up, you know, we've, we've got, we've made huge strides in the area.

We've got so much more. So we working on that, so we're just, we are catching up the, this the, you know, the, the high growth of the last eight years, um, to make sure we've got all that in place.

Jason: [00:24:30] Awesome. Well, great. Well, um, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

John: [00:24:37] Um, I think, I think for me it's about looking after yourself, you know, and I think again, just, just it's really part resilience is really, really key.

And nothing more has been mentioned, so I, what's been mentioned a lot more of the last 12 months is wellbeing. Um, second is acknowledging that, you know, you are human. Acknowledging that you are… You know, you haven't got all the answers. Acknowledging that it’s lonely then, and obviously you've got a mastermind course, which is fantastic, Jason. And, and again, if, if you can find something like that, or find something where you can find a buddy or a mentor for yourself, absolutely take it on.

Because it, you know, you've got to have that in your, I think, in your life, if you want to grow, grow big, because it is a challenge.

Jason: [00:25:24] Yep. Well, John, where can people, uh, what's the website address people can go? Especially if you're in the UK and you're going, hey, I want to, I want to be a big, bigger part of a team and you can buy me, John.

So where can they go?

John: [00:25:36] Oh, knock yourselves out, if you will. Um, well it's very simple. It's social.co.uk.

Jason: [00:25:41] That's great. That's awesome. I mean, that's a very easy URL. I've had some guests on that literally they spell it out like five times and you still wouldn't even get it. So congrats on getting that. And thanks so much for coming on the show.

And if you guys enjoyed this episode and you're in the UK and you want to possibly sell, go check them out. And know this is sponsored, uh, but he did drop a lot of amazing bombs. So go check that out.

And if you guys want to be surrounded by amazing people on a consistent basis, I would love to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is for agencies all over the world. Where we share the strategies that are currently working and little shrink moments, right? Like we can like cry on each other's shoulders to get us through.

But go there and until next time, have a Swenk day.

After the life of digital nomad led to the failure of his first company, Dean Dutro started Worth eCommerce. Since then, found the Digital Agency Elite mastermind, learned the importance of having a mission and values, and grew an amazingly successful agency that helps eCommerce stores drive new and repeat sales with email & SMS marketing.  He recently sold that company and today he’s here to talk about how his early failure led to having a strong belief in the agency’s values and mission, the process of getting ready for an opportunity to sell your agency, and what he advises everyone to do in order to enjoy a successful agency acquisition.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. It can be lonely at the top. One of the things mastermind members learn is the importance of having a mission and values, in order to surround yourself with people that you want to work with. This a foundational step to elevating your business. You can succeed with a self-centered business, but it can get lonely at the top. It’s better if you’re thinking about elevating your team and having an end goal with your mission.
2. Prepare yourself for acquisition. The end goal for every agency owner should be to exit at some point. If you’re thinking about selling your agency, Dean shares some key parts of the process, including how he discovered some accounting and business terms that were key to the process and he had never even heard of before. He mentions that the two most important pieces that buyers look for is EBITDA and the age of the company.
3. Get a Broker. With so many things to consider and prepare before even being ready for buyers, Dean recommends a broker. It may seem expensive, but they will get better deals and find good fits. A good, broker, lawyer, and accountant working as a team will get you through this process successfully.

Sponsors and Resources

HighLevel: Today's episode is sponsored by HighLevel, an all-in-one marketing platform that will give you the tools, support and resources you need to succeed with your agency. Head over to gohighlevel.com/swenk to enjoy an exclusive 30-day free trial.

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How to Prepare for the Opportunity to Sell and Enjoy a Successful Agency Acquisition

Jason: [00:00:00] Hey, what's up agency owners? I'm excited to have another great episode. I have a good buddy and a Mastermind member, Dean, who just recently sold his agency. And we're going to talk about the process of how to get there, how to get to a point where you have the opportunity to sell. And then also, what is the process like and what is life like after?

Uh, so let's go ahead and get into the episode.

Hey, Dean. Welcome back to the show.

Dean: [00:00:36] Hey, Jason. Thanks for having me.

Jason: [00:00:38] Yeah. Well, for the people that haven't checked out the first episode, uh, tell us who you are and what do you do?

Dean: [00:00:44] Yeah. Um, my name's Dean and I am the CEO of Worth eCommerce, which is an email marketing and SMS marketing agency for e-commerce companies.

Jason: [00:00:56] Awesome. And let's kind of jump into it because I was so excited for you. You know what… You know, I know we were chatting for a long time about the opportunity to sell and the process there. Let's talk about kind of getting to that point. What do you feel…? What's the level you are? What are were the things that you had to do in order to get you to the point where people wanted to buy you?

Dean: [00:01:22] Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a lot that, that went into it. And a lot that's happened over time and, you know, kind of going all the way back to the start of my agency career. You know, the first agency that I started in and kind of co-founded with my current business partner, um, was a UX design agency.

And we had this idea that we were going to be like digital nomads travel worlds. Go to Thailand and Australia and Asia and all these places and make a lot of money and live on beaches and drink beer. Uh, and we did that for like a year, but then we ended up just essentially broke and in debt. And both of us ended up living at our parents, or in my case, my grandparents' house for about six months to a year, um, on and off afterwards, cause we just failed.

And at that point that's actually when I discovered you guys, the Jason Swenk masterclass. I ended up stopped, stopped doing business with Ryan who's my co-founder and went on my own path. And one of the things that you guys taught was you got to have a mission and values, right? To get people to join you in order to work with the people that you want to work with.

And that, to me, it was like the first foundational step. You know, before it was like very selfish and self-centered, and there was no sense of like community anywhere I went. So when I moved back to Oregon and kind of decided like, hey, I want to build something where I can have a team around me. I have a mission, there's people I want to impact.

And my mission was very personal. It came from, uh, you know, my family, like my parents and grandparents were both small business owners and entrepreneurs. Uh, my grandma had a kitchen design business and ended up selling it when she retired. And my mom had a, a vintage clothing business before Shopify, like when Etsy was blowing up. But that didn't go well for her in 2008 hit and, you know, kinda hit them hard.

But, so I kind of had this vision of, I wanted to do something where I could help small and medium-sized businesses grow. And I want to do that with a group of people that I loved hanging out with that I thought were superstars and wanted to do it locally at first. Um, and just kind of grew that over time

Uh, fast forward. That company is called Instant Email Copy, which is what it was called when I joined you. And Ryan approached me and he was doing e-commerce himself. He was actually building stores and I was doing email for e-commerce. He's like, hey, like, why don't we join forces and use our skills to like grow again?

And by that time, like our skills have leveled out where, when I first joined, he had all the digital experience and I, I was doing like enterprise sales. So we kind of felt like a power balance and we went and created Worth eCommerce. And we did like two weeks in my hometown of Bend, Oregon. Uh, where we just like, figure out, like, what are our values, like who we want to be?

What kind of people do we want to bring on? What type of people we want to work with? And setting that was like the first step for us, um, to, to continue to grow over these last few years. Two years actually.

Jason: [00:04:24] Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I love that. Uh, I love that story and I love that, you know, there's so many people that talk about being a digital nomad and doing agencies. And I'm like, Yeah, that's good to kind of start and I'm sure that was a lot of fun.

Dean: [00:04:41] Oh yeah.

Jason: [00:04:42] But it's like you said, it's just centered around you rather than like… When you start realizing, and I think what you guys realized was how can I elevate my team? Which will, right? Like you get to the top of the mountain, but it's kinda lonely at the very top. Like it's more, I actually had more significance of growing our team than actually growing the agency.

And you have to have a purpose, like you were saying behind that. A lot of times it takes people a while to figure that out. Um, because you're just like, well, what am I good at? Like, what do I like? What, what do I believe in? And how do I surround myself with those, those people? What were some of the other things, now that you had a purpose and you were building the right team, um, you know, that you felt that you had to do in order to get to the point where you had the opportunity to sell it?

Dean: [00:05:36] Yeah. So I think it was really important, and one of the things I figured out was that at least in my space, in e-commerce, you know, I started working in a vertical niche, both from a service perspective, a client perspective, and software perspective. And it's a little bit of a risk from the software side, but basically I chose a software company that I loved working with. Who had great customer service, great customer experience.

They weren't the best at what they did at the time, but they had a similar vision of wanting to help similar types of customers and clients. That company is called Klaviyo and I joined them when they had like 400 customers. Um, now they have like 60,000. And so we got to really ride that wave, uh, and become experts in that specific skillset, that specific software, helping specific companies.

Uh, which led us to be able to charge a premium, uh, created better processes systems. We’re kind of like first, first, maybe not first to do email marketing, but like first to market using Klaviyo. And now we're, we're a platinum partner. We're on the advisory board. We're connecting with their leadership, learning about email, learning about SMS.

Like it's this very like positive relationship. They send us clients, they help us with marketing. And that itself has been a huge boost, uh, in terms of sales and revenue. Um, it all started with a simple system, like I built a basic system that worked. And over time it's, it's like, whenever I bring on new employees, I'll show them, hey, here's the first original document from Worth… for Instant Email Copy of like what we use to serve clients.

And then it's like, here's what it is now. And it's like, holy shit. Like it's crazy. How much it evolved.

Jason: [00:07:24] Pretty big difference.

Dean: [00:07:26] Pretty big difference. Yeah. Um, but what's really cool about it is as like, going back to building the team, is like most of the changes to the document weren’t done by me. They were done by people on the team who started to become better at what they do or, or more experienced in, and kind of committed to that.

Which is, which has been really cool to see.

Jason: [00:07:46] Yeah. Over the past couple of years in the mastermind, I've seen you really kind of transition from the owner to the CEO. Um, and you know, I talk a lot about that to all the agencies, right? Like, because ultimately the end goal of every agency is the exit in some way. Whether it be like you selling the agency or like, you know, other members that exit their current role, right? They exit to a chairman so they can go do other things. That kind of stuff.

Um, what, and it's sometimes difficult when people actually on your team start getting better than you. And you feel really done, right? Like, and the goal I tell everybody the goal is for you to be the dumbest person in the room, um, for your team.

Did, was that a challenge for you? Um, I'm not saying you're dumb obviously. But, uh, you, you, you sold for a lot of money, so obviously laugh, laugh on me if I'm calling you dumb. But I remember going through that going, oh my God, the agency doesn't need me anymore. Because everyone else is better, that the things I used to do. Did you struggle with that at all?

Dean: [00:08:58] Yeah, I think, I think initially, you know, like I had positioned myself as like the email marketing guy, right? Like people would come to work with me. People would come, clients would call me. Like everyone would, would want to work with me, right? And I got, it just wasn't, I even built like a course or like I was like advertising email marketing, and I was the main face.

And that was great. Um, but it didn't allow other people to flourish. And so when we, when I ended up merging what happened, and this is actually feedback I got from my team was like, Dean, we feel your presence too much. Like you're in here, like throwing curve balls to like a process we're trying to build.

And it's kind of messing things up cause we feel like we have to listen to you. And I remember like taking that feedback and being like, well, this is like, like, is this like what ideas better? You know, is it better to do it this way or the way they want to do it? And there's times where it's like, I have the experience. And I kind of like, as a business owner, like, you know, I don't know if that's going to work, um, because I've tried it before versus like, hey, I think you should just do it this way.

There's like a, like a, a difference there. Uh, like a, a fine line to kind of cross where you're giving advice versus like commanding. Um, and something you don't know about. Uh, and so I always tell people, and I even tell my leadership team, like, there's a point where you go from like, becoming the email marketing expert or the XYZ expert to, like you said, the CEO or to a leader and your responsibilities and roles change.

And that's something I learned from you and from the Mastermind group, different agencies and something I'm teaching to my leadership team as they're going from like copywriters or designers or, you know, admin, even to leadership role. It's like, hey, like your main job isn’t to always do email, like you gotta grow and help build the team, just like you've grown and built. And, um, totally different skillset.

Jason: [00:10:50] Oh yeah, definitely. And some people can't do it. Um, you know, it's a, so I applaud you for being able to do that. So let's talk about, now that we've kind of talked about getting there and, and that, uh… Let's talk about what was it like when people started coming to you, offering you money for the agency?

Dean: [00:11:10] Yeah, it was, um, it was interesting. Like it was a long process and my mindset on it was I just kind of want to know what the market's like, see what's out there. And see, like, what are people purchasing for? Like who is selling? Why are they styling? Like, I, I kinda wanted to soak that knowledge up. So we actually ended up working with a broker and, uh, I think you referred him, Todd Tasky, uh, over in DC.

And, you know, when I first connected with him, we were, we were still pretty small. You know, my main fear was, hey, like, are we too early to do this? And he was like, no, like just like, get to know people, get to know what's going on. And you know, you'll kind of figure out what you want. Are you still there?

Jason: [00:11:57] Oh yeah. Yeah. I just put you on solo. I was featuring you.

Dean: [00:12:04] Featuring, ok. And, and so, you know, we started the process early and started connect with companies and, and usually it was like, hey, you guys are too young. You're less than two years old. Like, we don't feel comfortable with it. It was a lot of nos. Right. Um, but a lot of like, hey, come back to us in a year or two, because we see your growth curve. We see the potential.

E-commerce, you know, blew up during COVID. It's still blowing up. So a lot of people saw it, but we are just a little bit too early, right? But by being too early, we kind of learned, okay, what are they actually looking? Right? Because every company before they would do like a letter of intent or anything like that, they would send like a list of items they wanted to know about.

So over time I built up this list. And by that point we were ready and our EBITDA was high enough and people were more interested, uh, I had everything ready, right? And EBITDA is obviously one of the most important pieces. Um, the age of the company is important.

So that was a hurdle for us because we'd started worth in 2019. And we had to justify our experience, you know, before that was built. Um, and at that time, it was just a matter of like, okay, these guys are growing. It's very clear.

And my, my worry was still, hey, we're a little too early. Like if we wait six months, maybe we'll get a lot more. So that became kind of a part of the negotiation piece was just like, just look at the growth curve and tendency of things and, you know, we'll get to a number that makes sense.

Um, so I feel like I'm missing your original question.

Jason: [00:13:30] No, th that was perfect. Um, what were, what were some of the important things that people were asking for outside of EBITDA?

Dean: [00:13:39] Yeah, they, they wanted to know like our forecast and budget and model and like what that looked like.

Um, they wanted to know our, uh, like our leadership team. It's like, who's in place and who's at the helm. And like, what's their experience. That was super important. Um, they wanted to know our plans if we were going to expand in any other market sets or stay niche. Uh, so that was an interesting one.

And we started doing SMS marketing, which helped with a lot of things. Um, and they wanted to know like, was our shipping order. Like, did we have valid contracts? A big piece we learned about was like, if you have contracts with customers, are they transferable or not? Right? Because if they're not, that kind of changes the entire setup of the deal structure and takes a ton of time.

So we get to like a hundred customers or partners or clients, and it's, non-transferable like you're in for a lot of extra work. It kind of things like that. Like our employment agreements, they want to kind of look at some of those things. But the biggest one that they always focused on was EBITDA and age of the company.

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Yeah. No, it's, those are all real important. And especially, you know, like I always tell you in the mastermind members. When you signed clients and in your agreement, make sure they are transferable. Um, or because a lot of times when agencies are bought, most people don't know this is it's an asset purchase.

So they're buying your contracts. And if you, you know, I've seen some master my members in the past where they've actually had to go back to their key clients and go, hey, and they have to share their hands saying, hey, I'm about to be bought. I need you to sign this. So it allows you to transfer the agreement over to the new agency.

And then if the new, if you, if the client doesn't sign it, the deal may not be done. Like it's literally so many loops. Which if you could just throw that in the agreement saying, hey, I can transfer this clause just with written notice to you.

Dean: [00:16:52] Yeah. And to be honest, I think we just got lucky. Like we just happened to have that in the beginning and we didn't have to worry about it.

I don't think I would have ever thought about that before.

Jason: [00:17:03] No, no one does. No one does until someone tells you, so it's crazy. Well, let's talk about, um, let's say after you get the letter of intent. What was that like? What did you go through and how long was that process?

Dean: [00:17:20] Um, man. So get just getting the letter of intent was pretty, pretty tough. From like… another thing they wanted to know is like your market position and what are sort of the areas where you feel you're weak? Because they really want to know where they can add value, right? So they want to know, like they don't want to find something that's broken.

They want to find something that's working, that they could put fuel on and create a bigger fire, right? That's kind of the mentality. So they would ask these questions where I felt very exposed. And like very naked in the business. Like I, like, I don't know these things or, you know, we don't really do that much marketing. It's more outbound sales.

And so they're like, oh, we're a marketing agency. We can help there. So they're really like, they're not picking you apart, but they're trying to like identify, is this a worthwhile time investment? Because once you get the, the LOI, something comes in called schedules and it's like, it's hell.

Uh, for us, they were ready to close quick. They were ready to make a deal. So it took about 45 days or 50 days, actually. Usually take, can take anywhere from three to six months. But what schedules are is this document you get from lawyers, that's like 50 questions, right?

But it's not just 50 questions. It's like, give me every single contract you've ever signed with every client, right? And pull it up and list any that are missing. Um, give me every single employment agreement you've signed with every client, with every employee you've ever had. Give me every single complaint any employees ever made against you.

Give me any single complaint any former client has made against you. All your, your liabilities and insurance documents. Give me your financials, you know, for the last five years and all of your tax returns. Um, it's just like... It's hell.

And then they want to know your, your projected forecast, right? For the next year. So you have to build a budgeting model, which I'd never done before. Um, and I ended up hiring a CFO. Who was referred by someone in the mastermind, Matt food truck, who had built out this budgeting model.

But then every, every week they'd want an update. It's like, oh, where'd you hit this week? And you're like, Jesus, like, I don't do this till the end of the month. You want to know every single like hour? And then the lawyers get involved, right? And they're battling stuff back and forth and like, is it an asset sale or a stock sale? Where do you want to be incorporated? Are you registered in every state that you hire correctly? Which we weren't.

Um, so we had to like go back and do all this stuff. And negotiating, you know, price points. Um, you know, the LOI they give you what the, what they want the offer to be. So a lot of the cash sort of conversations happen, pre LOI. Then they give you the LOI.

And then all the legal negotiations, which I had no idea what most of it meant, right? Like what is an asset sale? I had no idea. Um, how are you going to set it up so you can get taxed, you know, like a crazy amount? Uh, and they have to battle that back and forth. So it was, it was hell it was like a second job. Um, to be honest, it really took my eye off the ball of growing the agency, um, in retrospect.

Because most of my day was focused on gathering this information. Like living a double life of like, I'm not ready to tell employees I'm not ready to tell clients. I'm stressed out of my mind and no one knows why. Uh, you know, and, uh, keeping it under wraps was, was kind of strange. But, uh, yeah, it was like, you gotta be prepared to basically work another 20 hours a week, just gathering information.

Um, and then phone calls after phone calls with your broker and your lawyer. And, uh, being ready to invest in a lawyer who's good. Who can...

Jason: [00:21:00] Yeah, you mentioned two really big things. One, don't tell anybody, right? Like, if it gets out, people jump ship. People don't like change. They’ll like change after they kind of witnessed it.

And a lot of times when you're looking for the right person to buy you as you're evaluating, you got to make sure the culture fits there. And is it right for the team as well, right? Cause you know, they're the ones that got you here. You wouldn't be here without them.

Um, the other thing is, is you mentioned is you kind of took your eye off the ball. So a lot of times what I've found is, I mean, this happened to Justin, one of our members. He took his eye off the ball, he was going through an acquisition. Uh, they pulled out the last minute and almost went under.

Because they were like, oh, I'm going to get all these millions of dollars. I don't have to do anything. It'll be your problem in six months, who gives a shit? Right? Because everything we do is a li you know, a lag of a quarter or six months out. And then the deal doesn't go through. Or, and I think too, I think when agencies go and buy other agencies, I think they do this on purpose to be like, then they can change the deal at the last minute.

And be like, I gotcha.

Dean: [00:22:22] Yeah. That was my big concern and cause right... So the deal was supposed to close on a Friday. Didn't close. There's some legal issue that the lawyers were battling about and everyone was getting deal fatigue, like on both sides. Everyone was like, fuck, I'm tired. Excuse my language.

Like, sorry, I'm tired of talking about this deal. It's been, you know, 45 days of this every day. Um, and so I always felt like at any point the deal would be done and I just wasted, you know, 45 days. At the same time, I felt like I got a masters of business, you know, in 45 days. Because, like the private equity guys…

And I think what was really nice about this deal is like the, just like you said, the culture fit was huge. Like we just got along so well that even with the deal fatigue and the stress and like the money at stake. Like we can get off, like we could have a private conversation with no lawyers, no one else present and it was like, like we were in this together.

That was a super important to me. And, uh, those guys are, are, are awesome, but they taught me all these things about accounting. For example, a lot of larger companies, they use gap accounting, uh, which I never even heard that term ever in any sort of business article I've ever read.

And, uh, and none of my bookkeepers ever told me about gap accounting. And it's a pain in the ass, like it sucks to do, and it takes a lot of time, but it's really important to see like, you know, an accrual method versus a cash method and how that affects the deal, especially when you sell.

Um, cause there's things called. Uh, deferral. Revenue deferral, right? It's like, if you get paid up front, this is another huge learning lesson for me, which is like, so hard to get around. If you get paid up front for work, in gap accounting that's not counted as revenue until you do the work, right?

So all of a sudden, you think you have all this cash in your bank, you go to sell. They're actually like, no, you actually are less. Uh, and you're like, what the hell? Like, I don't understand this at all. Uh, so the lawyers and the broker had to in the PE guys had to walk me through. Like, I'm not actually being screwed, it just feels like it. Um,

Jason: [00:24:28] Yeah, and usually, and that's a good point. I'm glad you brought that up because that happened to us as well.

Um, because I mean, hell I always tell the story on the podcast of one client that, you know, we, we changed our payment terms. And one client came to us eight years later. But we… and we're like, hey, I'm ready. But they paid up front, right? Like, you know, so, you know, we all think of agencies getting paid upfront is awesome. And it is, and you should continue to do that, um, as much as you possibly can.

But when you do go to sell, there is going to be a reckoning and you're going to be like, whoa. And that, and usually they do that right at the end. They know it's coming. The bastards know it's coming and they do it at the end and go, oh no.

And then you're like, fuck it.

Awesome. Um, well, Dean, man, I'm so happy and proud to see how, how have you've grown over the, the past couple of years. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience? If they're thinking about doing something like you've done.

Dean: [00:25:42] Yeah, I would say, definitely get a broker. You know, it feels expensive, but they get better deals and they find good fits. You know, and, and Todd, to his credit, like we probably spoke with 10 or 15 companies and most of them were not the right fit.

And, you know, he told me early on that, like, we're gonna, we're going to talk to a lot of people. It's gonna be a lot of time and you get a lot of like deal ideas. And then all of a sudden you'll be presented with the deal and your gut will tell you if it's right or not.

And that's kind of exactly what happened was, you know, there, there are always companies I was like, this is not the right fit. I don’t like these guys. There's something off for they're too huge and I don't want to be like just a cog. And with this one, it was like, met them, got the offer, felt good, felt good to my partner and we went with it.

Um, to get a broker and get a good lawyer and a good accountant. Hopefully they're all a team together. And they've worked together. Uh, I couldn't imagine doing it without, you know, acquisitions experience.

Jason: [00:26:40] Yeah, I know having a good broker is key and all the other assets as well. And if you guys want to know more about Todd, just hit me up and I'll do an introduction for you guys.

Uh, well, Dean, I'm so happy for you, man. Um, and this has all been great. And for everyone listening, if you guys want to be in a point where you can scale your agency to a point where you have the opportunity to exit. And have a number of different agency owners, including me, you know, helping you get to there and, and advising you to get to the next level.

Hopefully, that next level is to sell for the number that you actually want. I'd love to invite all of you to go apply for the Digital Agency Elite.

Go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is the mastermind that as Dean has been in for the past couple of years and is still in, make sure you go do that now.

And until next time, have a Swenk day.

Want to build an amazing agency culture and brand? After running his own agency, Historic, for eight years and leading teams of creatives, Ted Vaughn took on the task of co-writing the book on all aspects of building your agency's brand and how leadership shapes its culture. Ted is on the show talking about how you can use culture to help further grow your agency. He covers the six parts of marquee culture established in his book, Culture Built My Brand, the biggest gap he’s noticed in company culture, and how to align your principles and values to attract the right people.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Shaping culture to grow your agency. If you’re an agency owner looking to create a brand and culture that can help grow your business, remember your leadership, the decisions that you make, the ways in which you operate all become more critical than technical expertise or unique ability. Your role as a leader determines how the culture works or if it becomes toxic. Ted explains one of the biggest gaps he’s seen in company culture is leaders who fail to understand the reality of their power and do not build bridges over to the people they lead so that they can actually be given feedback on how to reshape their HR systems or their values.
2. The six layers of marquee culture. In their book, Ted and his partner identify six layers of marquee culture. Your marquee culture is at your forefront. It is the thing that galvanizes and draws attention to your agency, attracts great people, and keeps great people. Each of these layers translates into behavior-shaping principles for the people who are a part of our organizations. These 6 are: principles, architecture, rituals, lore, vocabulary, and artifacts. The single most important layer is the first one. Ted and his team have found many times the values or ideas that hold an organization together are too vague or abstract. He talks about the way to transform them into behavior-shaping principles for the people who are a part of your team
3. How the 6 layers interact. A lot of agencies might already have some of these layers in places but not in a way that actually transforms them into core values. This is because they haven't actually integrated them into their decision-making. For example, in the case of architecture, Ted believes HR systems and structures should not simply be healthy or unhealthy. They really need to be built in a way that furthers aspects of your brand value. For rituals, it needs to be organic experiences that energize your people, not just staff meetings. Remember these layers are permeable, they're not just independent ideas that operate independently from the others. Your principles should inform your vocabulary and rituals and so on.

Sponsors and Resources

Sharpspring: Today's episode is sponsored by Sharpspring, an all-in-one revenue growth platform that provides all of the marketing automation, CRM, & sales features you need to support your entire customer lifecycle. Partner with an affordable marketing automation provider that you can trust. Head over to sharpspring.com/smartagency to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Shaping Agency Culture With the Six Layers that Build an Effective Brand

{These transcripts have been auto-generated. While largely accurate, they may contain some errors.}

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here and I have another amazing episode for you where we're going to talk about culture and how you can get the right people. Who do you need to bring in? How do you evaluate them? All that kind of good stuff, so you can grow your agency faster. And so let's go ahead and get into the episode.

Hey, Ted. Welcome to the show. Gotcha with the water.

Ted: [00:00:28] You did. That was so fast. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Huge fan, uh, really have been inspired by your work and your network. And, uh, just a real honor to be on the show.

Jason: [00:00:40] Awesome. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your agency actually does.

Ted: [00:00:45] So I've spent most of my life leading in non-profit circles, leading teams of creatives. Um, started an agency with my business partner, Mark Miller about eight years ago, called Historic.

We thought it would be just a cool idea to serve some of our niche clients. Bootstrapped it, and, uh, you know, eight years later, we're, uh, we're doing over a million dollars in business and have a staff and a brick and mortar. And we've learned a lot in the journey, both about who we are and about what makes us tick.

And I think that's why we wrote a book and it's why I'm talking to you today.

Jason: [00:01:19] Great. Let's talk about building a culture within your organization. You know, I look at it as everyone's building a culture… Matters of, are you building the culture that you actually want?

Ted: [00:01:30] Yeah, I mean we... believe senior leaders are shaping culture as the most significant contribution to their organization.

I mean, if you are leading an agency, the how of your leadership matters more than the unique skill that you bring to the table. Unless, it's a boutique lifestyle brand and literally you are an employee of one, but if you want to scale, if you want to grow, the single greatest question you have to wrestle with is the how of my leadership more than the what of my technical skill or talent.

Jason: [00:02:05] So give us a little bit more about what's the difference between those.

Ted: [00:02:09] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, even for Mark and me, we each have really unique skill and technical ability that offers value that our agency still really needs. But as we've taken on staff and as we've grown and as we've had to empower our staff, the company culture that we shape and that we lead becomes our brand in ways our skill and talent alone could never fully embrace.

Our brand, the touchpoints of our brand, our growth, and this will certainly be true if we go beyond, you know, our current, you know, one point, whatever million-dollar mark to 5 million… exponentially becomes the case. Then you go even further and it gets even more important.

Your leadership, the decisions that you make, the ways in which you operate become more critical than your technical expertise or unique ability as a designer or as a strategist or as a PR person.

Jason: [00:03:06] Now I've had people on to talk about culture from Zappos, who so many people modeled, you know, Tony Shay and all those guys did.

So what are ways where agencies listening right now… How can you start shaping the culture in order to scale your agency faster?

Ted: [00:03:26] Well, we've the book that we wrote, “Culture Built My Brand”. It was really written on the back of our learning. We have sweat a lot of blood made a ton of mistakes. And I think the idea for us in the book is, is a marquee culture and a marquee culture is like that marquee sign. It's that well-lit banner. That is the forefront. It is the thing that galvanizes and draws attention, attracts great people, keeps great people.

So in the book, we talk about a marquee culture, having six layers or six dimensions. And the single most important is the first, which we call principles. What we find often in our, in our own agency it was true and the clients that we serve it's true. And I would assume for many of you listening it's true.

We have these values or these ideas that hold us together that become our riverbanks or our guiding ideas. But they're so vague or abstract or unclear they don't actually translate into behavior shaping principles for the people who are a part of our organizations.

And I would say probably one of the first places to start the first layer in our book on culture and brand is principles. Taking your values or recreating your values so that they're actionable, applicable culture-shaping principles that really give those who are a part of your team, clear behavioral guidelines, so that they know how to be on-brand, how to operate, how to make decisions in ways that will really further your brand in unique ways and not just have abstract ideas.

Jason: [00:05:01] So one of our principles in our culture is really being resourceful. So give us an example of… all right, that's kind of the, the layer here. How do we take it further.

Ted: [00:05:14] Yeah. I mean, we often will work with brands that have some version of innovation as their value, right? Maybe it's stated that way, or it's stated with a really sticky phrase. But then when you look at how people behave or you begin to ask questions around decision-making, or you look at how money is spent, you quickly realize that the organization's not structured in a way that actually takes the value of innovation seriously.

It's because they haven't actually taken that value and then integrated it and baked it into decision-making in all sorts of different ways, which really is the second layer of our book and culture, which was architecture.

We don't believe that HR systems and structures should simply be healthy or unhealthy. They really need to be built in a way that furthers aspects of your brand value. So if you articulate innovation, that should absolutely show up and shape how HR functions and how decision-making and power and governance take place in your organization.

Jason: [00:06:16] So like with, you know, our organization being resourceful. Like how would you bake that in even more and kind of take it up a notch?

Ted: [00:06:25] Well, I'm assuming that when you say resourceful, you're talking about resourcing others, right? Being a part of something larger than yourself?

Jason: [00:06:32] No, I'm talking about being resourceful is like figuring out like, all right. You know, we normally do it this way, but we could do it another way. Or, oh man, I don't feel like we have enough resources, you know, just figuring out a better way to do things more efficiently.

Ted: [00:06:51] Yeah. I mean, again, I think what's interesting is even, you know, I, from the outside of hearing that word immediately took it in a different direction. So I think one of the questions that I would have would be when you say resourceful, what are the specific behaviors or ways in which that value translates to how your people lead, behave, are asked to budget how they solve problems.

You know, I think there'd be fantastic ways for you to approach problem-solving in more bootstrapped, organic lean ways where you create heroes or you reward people who approach problem-solving through resourcefully challenged opportunities versus just throwing money at problems or thinking everybody needs to have support staff or, um, but I mean, there could be so many different ways that that value shapes the brass tax of your agency.

I think it'd be a fun conversation to figure out how you're doing it today.

Jason: [00:07:45] Gotcha. And so what are the other layers now that we have the principal. And then I think the second was architecture, if I…?

Ted: [00:07:50] Architecture. Yeah. So principles being the idea that you want your values to be actionable and really shape all sorts of practical aspects of your people's behavior.

Architecture being the structures that support your people. We talk a lot about Frank Lloyd Wright and the architecture that he did intentionally around the environment he was in. Third layer would be rituals. We talk about the experiences that energize your people and the best rituals and organizations are those that are organic. Not just top-down staff retreats or all staff meetings, but those rituals, like we talk a lot about the pumpkin carving contest in the jet propulsion lab and NASA.

The next layer would be lore, the sticky stories that shape us. There are some really fantastic ways you can shape story, do storytelling in ways that further your brand value that help provide differentiation to your brand.

Next layer is vocabulary, having phrases, words, ideas. We talk a lot about Netflix and some of the great language that they have from “Sunshining” to, um, different terms that they use to shape their culture. And then the last layer would be artifacts, which are everything from clothes to your physical space, to brands that we've worked with that set up unique opportunities for people that have private space in a shared workspace.

One brand that has a football field mini version of a football field in their environment because they have a value of leaving it all on the field, all sorts of ways that you can physically shape your brand value in your space.

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Manage your entire funnel all in Sharpspring. Now for a limited time, my smart agency listeners will receive your first month free and half off onboarding with SharpSpring. Just visit sharpspring.com/smartagency to schedule your demo and grab this offer. That's sharpspring.com/smartagency.

Very cool. So give us some more examples of each of the layers, just so people can start going oh, okay, cool. This is what we can actually do. Like once we form the principles, how can we build a better architecture and so on?

Ted: [00:10:41] For sure. So these layers are somewhat, uh, permeable, right? They're not just independent ideas that operate independently from the others, right? Your, your principles should absolutely shape vocabulary. As a matter of fact, a lot of times in brands, we see those, those values, those principles show up in their vocabulary because they get phrased in ways that become really sticky and interesting and helpful.

Uh, architecture is absolutely informed by your principles. The way that you conduct HR hiring, onboarding. Rituals, uh, those again, in the book, we talk a lot about rituals being organic. When you have people that love your brand, they will often create their own experiences of the brand. One practical example for us at our agency, we do staff camp, we do Christmas gatherings. We constantly ask our staff how they want to participate and engage and be a part of those experiences.

And in the process we've gotten all sorts of rituals in our agency that have been organic from our people, but mark and I would have never dreamed of. From cool patches and stickers and badges that have been developed in previous years that continue on to this day to other activities and games and things that operate within our agency.

And another great example is we had a member of our staff want to do a music club, right? That's a great example of a ritual. We were like a music club! Awesome. Why not? That's becomes such a significant part of our agency that any new staff person is given a Sonos speaker so that no matter where they are in the US they can be a part of music club, be on Spotify, be a part of this experience.

It's a way that we want to honor that because it's become such an important ritual within our organization. And we have no formal authority over music club. It's just an organic thing that our people develop that's become a key part of their… I think they would say a key part of their positive, satisfactory experience of working with us.

Jason: [00:12:45] So are rituals more kind of like experiences and then like architecture is more like systems and…?

Ted: [00:12:51] A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, you think about architecture, right? Like no architect designs a home and simply says, well, it's safe, it's stable, the plumbing works. You're good. That's not an architect, right? An architect is very, very interested in the design and shape of that structure, matching its external and internal audience and environment needs.

It's not just safe or not safe. There are so many other dimensions to architecture. We think HR, the systems that support your people. should be the same way. You know, a lot of agencies, when we were a young agency and even today we cannot comp like 52 or 72 and sunny, not 52, 72andSunny, or, you know, name the agency, right? That has fantastic compensation plans.

But there are so many different ways that you can do comp. One for us, one of our architecture branded ideas at, at historic is travel pizza. What is travel pizza? Anytime somebody on our staff has to be gone overnight, we provide a $50 stipend for meals for their family. It can be Ubereats. It can be pizza, it can be whatever you want it to be.

Travel pizzas become an unbelievable way that our people feel valued and their families feel valued because they get a cool night out whether it's out or it's brought in on us because their person that they care about is gone. Lots of other ways to do compensation, to structure, to architect compensation that deliver unique value through your agency. That go way beyond annual salary.

Jason: [00:14:32] Yeah, I like that. Remind me, what's after ritual and let's talk about examples.

Ted: [00:14:38] There's a lot. It can be complex. So the, the layers of culture, somewhat in a linear order would be principles, architecture, rituals, and then lore. Lore being those sticky stories, right? Every brand that we’ve a part of I've been on staff that has had those stories that echo through the hallways and often they're incredibly toxic.

Jason: [00:15:01] So would that be like, like what a story…? This happened at our agency where we were sent these lounge chairs that were double-sided and they sent it like 10 of them from China in these boxes with all these packing popcorn.

But when we opened the boxes up, we had so much packing popcorn. It literally went down a hallway. And so we were like, let's keep it. We'd literally kept it until we sold the office. There was a whole hallway of packing popcorn that you could run and jump and do flips in and lose articles of clothing. So is that like a lore?

Ted: [00:15:39] Well, that sounds like an amazing ritual, but I would say the minute, the minute you cleaned up that popcorn, I believe that was probably an incredible story. A lore that is a positive example of how your agency describes its culture through story. And if I'm you, you know, Jason, I want that story to continue echoing through the halls.

I want new staff to be told that story when they're onboard, because that says something about who we are, what we value, how we behave, that goes way beyond any HR manual or onboarding. That is a great example of lore. A great example of toxic lore would be when I got hired as a C-suite leader in a non-profit and the second day in I was told by one of my colleagues, you know, you're just a plane flight away from losing your job.

And I was like, huh, tell me more. He's like, well, the person that you're replacing was hired when the CEO sat next to them on a plane and before the plane landed, they were hired on staff and a negotiated salary. So just remember if he sits next to somebody who does your job better than you, well…

Now that story had existed for years in the hallways of this organization. I, dumb enough thought I'm going to ask the CEO about that. So I brought it to the CEO and said, hey, I heard this crazy story. Is that true? He's like, well, it's kind of true. Not really true. Who told you that story? I was like, well, this is where I heard it in multiple places, but, um…

He's like, you heard it in multiple places? Like a lot of people told me the same story. Point being, that negative story, toxic story shaping this leader's culture had been told for years and he had never heard it. The idea here is the more senior you are in the brand that you lead, the more self diluted you probably are as well. The more people are saying things about you or about the brand that you don't know about just by nature of your power and position.

It's incredible how often senior leaders and brands we serve are clueless about stuff multiple people on the ground talk about and say on the routine.

Jason: [00:17:55] Oh, yeah, yeah. And one of the things just going back to that story that I'm thinking about now, is the only time we cleaned up that popcorn was to put all of that in my VP of operations sunroof in his car. And we filled up his whole car. So when he came out to his car and just literally went…

Ted: [00:18:16] I mean, to me, that's the epilogue, that's the, like the story, the story lives on there's layers to the story, right? I mean, you know, I would say like, Jason, that's a great example of how a story could very well create a sticky idea, vocabulary, which is the next layer, and that sticky phrase becomes a principle that now… This is how these layers work together.

Sometimes principles create stories that create rituals. Sometimes the way in which we have the principle or value shapes our architecture, which creates it, these layers work together. But the point is there's a reason why Southwest and Netflix and Zappos, and many of the brands we know and love and talk about in this book are as successful as they are.

It's not a happenstance coincidence they hit the market at the right time. They were aligned intentionally from the inside out, right? We have a philosophy of brand that your brand is your culture, your story, your product, your experience, and your identity.

Don't start with identity. Start with culture. Defining that from the inside out is always far more sustainable and effective and long lasting, and has far less drama than starting with identity.

Jason: [00:19:36] I love that. Well, this has all been amazing, Ted, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Ted: [00:19:42] Well, you can't talk about company culture and brand and agency life without addressing power. I think maybe one of the tangential elements to this conversation today has been the dynamic of power. And I think anybody listening who's a leader or being led, understands that power is a thing.

I would say that one of the biggest gaps that we experience in company culture are leaders, is leaders who fail to understand the reality of their power and build bridges over that power to the people they lead so that they can actually get the truth. They can actually be told that toxic lore, they can actually be given feedback on how to reshape their HR systems or their values.

It's amazing how, again, self diluted senior leaders are because of the power gap and their failure to build a bridge over that power. I would just challenge all of your listeners, if you have power of any form, be aware of it and build a bridge over it for the purpose of shaping a healthy company culture.

Jason: [00:20:49] I love it. What's the name of the book and where can they get that?

Ted: [00:20:53] Yeah, the book is Culture Built my Brand. Originally we wanted to call it Culture Ate my Brand, but the publisher thought that was a little too, little too negative. So they scratched it out and we have built, you can get it at any bookseller near you from Amazon to Barnes and Noble to…

They just started shipping. We had some shipping-related challenges as I'm sure everybody's experienced. Um, but, uh, you could also visit culturebuiltmybrand.com to get access to a whole suite of tools that I actually think as agency owners… You may or may not ever want to take culture seriously as a part of your service group as a brand, but I guarantee you, if you apply some of the thoughts and ideas we have either to your agency or to how you serve clients, it'll make you a better agency.

So take advantage of these tools, CultureBuiltMyBrand.com and then our agency is just Historic Agency.

Jason: [00:21:47] Awesome. Well, Ted, thanks so much for coming on the show. And if you guys enjoyed this episode, make sure you guys subscribe, make sure you like it, comment and share it with a friend. And, uh, if you guys want to be around other amazing agency owners, sharing what's working and being able to see the things that you might not be able to see.

I'd love to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind, just for experience agency owners that are trying to just grow faster, have a lot of fun and just build an amazing culture. So thanks so much.

And until next time, have a Swenk day.

Are you thinking of starting an agency, but are not sure where to start? Do you have a business model but are struggling to find your core values? In today's market, starting a digital agency can be an exciting and prosperous opportunity. Knowing your brand's message and how to share it with others is the key to standing out and not be another "me too" agency.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to find and retain agency employees.
• #1 key to creating an agency business plan.
• How to find your agency's true north.

Today, I got the opportunity to sit down with Jonathan Peischl, co-owner of SPLICE Agency. Jonathan started his career as a medical writer, but quickly realized he was destined for the digital ad agency world. After a couple of moves (and a major move across the United States), Jonathan and his business partners realized the companies they were working for were missing a few key components necessary for the industry to survive. Together, the four men created a business plan that has transformed SPLICE from a four-man operation to a company of over 30 employees in just three years. Find out Jonathan's keys to success here.

How to Find and Retain Agency Employees

When you are creating a business, your employees are going to be one of the key components of your businesses' success. It doesn't matter how great you are at everything else, if your employees are constantly jumping ship for the next bright and shiny opportunity, your agency is going to sink, fast. So how do you make your employees want to work with you?

It begins with culture. Promote a culture you want to live by. Jonathan says he wants his employees to have time to pursue their passions. Whether this means letting your employees work from home or leave early to pick up their kids, show your employees that you value their creative input, as well as their lives outside of the business. Really live by this culture. Don't just put it on a whiteboard and be done with it. Creating culture employees want to work in requires care and feeding every day. It begins with great leadership promoting your company's values.

#1 Key to Creating an Agency Business Plan

The thing about digital agencies is many begin without a solid business plan in place. They start the business and then five years later create a business plan. If you are going into a startup trying to create a business plan from scratch, you want a plan that sets you up for success. The number one way to do this is to develop a plan that works well for both your clients and your team. Once you have your philosophy, you surround it with a set of core values for which you want your company to stand by. When you balance your vision of what you what for your business with what you provide your clients, you will always be able to find your true north.

How to Find Your Agency's True North

Your true north is where you want your business to grow — where your vision should be focused every day. But how do you find your true north? How do you know what direction is the right direction? It all begins with soul searching.

1. Cleanse yourself from the processes of past employers: It's so easy to get caught up in values and ideas from previous companies and leaders. To find your true north, you need to really sit down and think about what's important to you.
2. Find what makes you stand out from your competitors: You won't always be able to compete on price or cash flow, so it's important that your values and offerings stand out from the crowd. What can you provide that no one else can? How can you position yourself beyond just a commodity?
3. Gut check yourself: You don't want to come up with a vision or idea that is so lofty that nobody can pull it off. That's a way to set yourself up for failure. You have to keep your feet on the ground to some degree.

Your true north and guiding values will be a key to your success as an agency. If you can't provide a product or service you are proud of and work for a company you enjoy working for, you're never going to find true success. When you begin with a solid vision and business plan, the opportunity to grow bigger and better will always exist.

Are you tired of being the only one in your agency responsible for closing deals? Would you like to build a top-notch agency sales team to land the deals you’ve always wanted? In this episode, you'll learn how to find the right salesperson, build a sales team, train, manage, and compensate them so the owner is no longer the one responsible for agency sales.

It all starts with:

• Understanding your ideal client.
• Finding and training the right salespeople.
• Creating a sales process that works for the sales team.

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Being an agency owner can feel like being on a rollercoaster ride. One moment you have a full pipeline and the next it is as dry as the desert. I remember focusing all my attention on sales to get new business and then having to switch my focus to delivery. As soon as I was focused on delivery I noticed sales suffered. In hindsight, I think I was self-sabotaging sales because we just couldn’t deliver as fast as I was selling the services.

To fix this problem you have to find a salesperson who can do a better job at sales than you do, as the agency owner.

There are three types of salespeople:

• Hunter:  usually has a lower salary and gets paid per appointment.
• Closer: with a higher base salary and tiered commission, and should have a sales quota.
• Farmer or account service: has a mid-range salary with a bonus based on client retention.

The BIGGEST MISTAKE you can make while searching for a salesperson is trying to find a unicorn that can fill all three of these roles. And, you don’t need to hire all three at once. Start by hiring for the role you’re weakest at. Are you good at getting the leads in but lacking when it comes to following up? Then hire a closer. Eventually, you can hire the rest and grow a sales team.

Pro tip: be sure to give them the right title. No one wants to meet with a “Business Development Manager” or “Salesperson.” Personally, I’ve always preferred the term Specialist, like Scale Specialist or Conversion Specialist. You need a title that makes prospects want to have a conversation.

Now where can you actually find these salespeople? You have several choices:

1. Personal connections: I don't suggest hiring a friend, but a mutual connection is a winner almost every time.
2. Current and past clients: Your clients already know what you do and your process and they may love working for you.
3. Salespeople who have sold to you in the past: They can even be from another industry. The important thing is that you had a good experience; you can teach and train them in everything else agency-related.
4. Recruiters and job boards: This has never personally worked for me but it depends on your style and preferences.

How to Differentiate a Good Agency Sales Candidate

Once you start the interview process, how can you tell a sales candidate is right for your agency? Look at how they’re behaving during the interview. Are they talking too much? If they do, it’s probably a bad sign. A good salesperson listens more than they talk. Are they asking great questions? Have they been successful in sales in the past? As mentioned, they don’t necessarily need experience in the agency industry, as long as they understand the principles of sales.

For the candidates you do like, ask them to prepare a 90-day plan. They should be able to paint a picture of what they would do during the first 90 days at your agency. Moreover, you can use that plan later as a way to measure them.

Pro Tip: Sales are very competitive, so if you can hire two or three candidates at the same time, you can encourage competition while also testing out strengths.

How Should You Compensate Agency Sales? Commission-Only vs. Salary

This is a question I get very often. How do you compensate an agency salesperson? Commission-only or straight salary?

To be clear, each has its downsides. If you’re paying commission only, your salespeople may start to make false promises in desperation to make a sale. They also may not be 100% focused on your agency and might even sell for someone else to make ends meet.

On the other hand, if you go for 100% salary you avoid the problem of false promises but they almost certainly won’t be hungry enough to go hard on sales.

This is why I lean more toward doing a combination of both: salary plus commission. I offer a base salary that is just below their salary requirements and a commission, of maybe 5% - 10%. You need to show them there is an incentive to exceed their salary goals IF they are a rockstar at sales.

Training Your Digital Agency Sales Team

When I think about training a salesperson I think about preparing them to be able to answer the following:

1. What’s your promise to your clients?
2. What’s your client's problem? And,
3. What types of clients are a good fit and what are not?

Over the years I’ve broken down what makes agency owners such good salespeople and realized it all comes down to stories. As owners, we have all the stories for different scenarios. If you’re dealing with a prospect that’s having a hard time converting leads, you probably have a story about another client who dealt with this same struggle and overcame it.

As the owner, I recommend keeping track of and sharing those stories. The team could use some of them to attract leads, others to convert. The point is that you give them the tools to succeed. Over time, they’ll accumulate their own stories.

How to Train and Manage Your Agency Sales Team 

When it comes to managing salespeople I recommend you start doing it daily until you feel they can handle themselves. You can break it down into morning and afternoon, at least for the first couple of months. The morning should be used to share stories and prepare them to chat with clients. You’ll also want to share wins and go over objections people may be having.

On the other hand, the afternoon should be more about the progress of the day. This is better left for the afternoon because some days they’ll get a lot of no’s and you’ll have to help rebuild their confidence.

Once they get to a good place, you can change the daily check-ins to weekly. They should also start recording all their calls so you can review them. You can ask them to send their worst and best calls of the day. This way, you can see if they’re clarifying why the client got on the call. They should label the problem and establish a gap in how far away the client is from where they want to be. Also, make sure they ask for the sale, rather than just prescribe what they need to do.

Finally, make sure you’re constantly measuring them on their 90-day success plan. This way, I guarantee within 30 days you’ll know whether that salesperson is going to work out or not.

How to Qualify Agency Prospects and Stop Wasting Time with the Wrong Ones

How can you spend time with the right prospect and avoid wasting time with the wrong ones? The first conversation with a prospect is the most important because it frames how the relationship develops.

Too many agencies use that conversation to focus on themselves (showcasing capabilities and successes) when you should actually be focusing on the prospect. Often agencies start talking about their awards and their portfolio with a prospect that doesn’t care about that yet. They don't care what the agency can do, they care what the agency can do for them.

However, I’m sure you want to stand out and present yourself as more than just another Me Too agency, and there are 10 questions you can ask to position yourself as THE CHOICE rather than a choice.

10 Steps When Talking with New Agency Prospects

It's important to gauge the benefits and pre-qualify any new agency prospect. I call this a triage call, where you can assess the challenge the prospect is facing and determine whether you can work together to deliver the results they seek.

1. The Welcome: This sets the tone for the meeting and establishes you as the one in control. Just make them feel comfortable and let them know you’ll be asking them some questions to determine whether or not you can help them. Explain that if you're a good fit, there will be another meeting. If you can't help, you’ll give them some advice and part as friends.
2. Why now and why me? Try to understand why they’re coming to your agency at this particular moment.
3. Tell me more about your business: Make sure you have the full picture of what they do so you can determine if you can help them.
4. What’s your budget? This will determine their expectation and what they’re willing to pay.
5. Where are they now and where are they trying to be? Get to know the metrics, the goals, and how they are going to measure success.
6. What is missing or broken? Try to identify their biggest issue. Try to learn the impact that issue is having on their business and the impact of fixing it.
7. What do they need? What are their biggest challenges and why do they think you can solve those?
8. Establish the priority: On a scale of 1 to 10 how much of a priority is it to resolve this issue?
9. Problem check-in: State the top problems and the impact they’re having on them.
10. Can you actually help them and do you want to? This is a question to ask yourself, thinking not just in terms of revenue but based on the initial interaction; is this client he right fit for your agency?

After doing the triage call and walking through these 10 questions, it is time to present your foot-in-the-door offer.

A foot-in-the-door offer is a low commitment, low cost, and easy YES for the prospect. And, it's the best way to showcase your agency's expertise and test out a working relationship with a client before fully committing to larger projects.

Do You Want to Convert More Prospects Into Agency Clients?

FREE COURSE: Discover the 4-system process to CONVERTING more agency clients at https://www.agencymastery360.com/convert In our videos series, we'll break down the steps you need to charge what you're worth, overcome common sales objections, and unlock up to 20X more revenue from existing clients.

Are you tracking your agency’s gross margin? How about the EBITDA? KPIs are super important and something every agency owner should be aware of. But which KPIs you track depends on the priorities you set for the agency. Do you want to grow fast? Are you planning to sell soon? Having a clear vision and goals makes a difference when it comes to what you're measuring. Today’s guest shares the most important KPIs he believes all agencies should be keeping track of and what you can do if some of them dip below where they should be.

Jon Morris is the CEO of Ramsay Innovations, a company dedicated to helping agencies get greater insights out of their finances so they can grow at a faster rate. In his area of specialty, Jon is used to advising companies on ways to improve their finances and now shares some of that useful insight.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• The most important KPIs for agencies.
• What to spend on sales and marketing.
• Revenue as a percentage of client base.
• Dos and Don’ts of using a line of credit.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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How a Minority Investment Can Help Growth

Jon started working from his home in 2004 in an agency called Rise Interactive. Several years later, he took a minority investment and grew it into one of the largest independent digital agencies, managing about $250 million in media before he sold it.

When he took the minority investment, his agency’s fees were around $20 million. At the time, he wanted to invest more in sales and marketing. Their mission as an agency was to be the leader in leveraging data to help brands make smarter marketing decisions. However, the reality is that if you line up 50 agencies they would all say that they are data-driven. They had to answer why they were more data-driven than the rest.

$20 million in fees may seem like quite a lot. However, the cost of building technology and putting together a sizeable team is a major investment. Looking back, he knows taking the minority investment was the best move because back then he just didn’t have the capital for the technological investments.

When you build technology you need a fully dedicated team that eats, sleeps, and dreams the product. Every agency has a very standard leadership structure, with a client service team, a sales a marketing team, and operations and finance teams.

In their case, they added another pillar that was product development and strategy, which included:

• UX developers
• Engineers
• Product developers
• Development Operators
• Quality Assurance

The Most Important KPIs for a Digital Agency

For Jon, the most important KPI for an agency is gross margin, which is different from adjusted gross income. The first thing you need to do to get to your gross margin is to know your revenue. He breaks revenue into two categories: gross revenue and net revenue.

Having worked with many agencies by now, Jon knows it’s not very easy getting these numbers. Often times it’s a matter of getting the data clean to figure out net revenue vs. gross revenue. A lot of agencies are very focused on payroll divided by revenue as a ratio. However, payroll generally includes everything from sales and marketing to operations.

What you want to do is get to your costs of service. To do that, you need to go through every single line item to determine whether or not it is dedicated to client work. If you have an employee that is dedicated to a client’s paid search campaign, then that’s going to be a cost of service. On the contrary, an employee dedicated to HR is not a cost of service.

On average, his clients are at a 40% gross margin when they start working with his agency and their goal is to get them to 50%.

Why Cost of Service is the Most Important KPI?

If you are selling something for $1 million and you get $500,000 in fees and $500,000 in gross margin, then you now have $500,000 to put back into your business or in your pocket.

However, if that same $1 million is costing you $800,000, you only have $200,000 to invest in your business.

Therefore, you can have two agencies doing the exact same thing both around $5 million in net revenue. In the end, one made a profit of $1.5 million and one lost a few hundred thousand dollars. The difference is their gross margin.

Percentage of Revenue Spent on Sales and Marketing

The next metric you should be focusing on is what percentage of net revenue you’re spending on sales and marketing. Again, divide your payroll to group sales and marketing people into "sales and marketing costs". In theory, if you spend on sales and marketing you have a better chance of growing than if you don't.

What you're willing to spend on sales and marketing directly impacts your growth:

• Spend 0 and 5% of revenue on sales and marketing says you’re not that serious about growth.
• If you’re between 5% to 10% spending, you’re where everyone else is in terms of the importance of growth.
• Spending more than 10% means you’re very serious about growth.

Of course, it’s fine if your focus right now is not on growth. For instance, one of Jon’s clients is focused on increasing their revenue per employee and is interested in growing moderately. It will depend on your priorities. Some agency owners may just want to optimize their gross revenue to maintain their lifestyle business.

On the other hand, some of Jon’s clients don't spend anything on sales or marketing. To him, it was unbelievable that an agency could believe so little in marketing.

Where Should Your EBITDA Be?

The golden rule for agencies is to have 20% topline growth and 20% EBITDA. If you’re planning to sell to a holding company, they’ll expect you to have 20% EBITDA.

However, Jon has a different philosophy. If you can make a positive investment in your agency it’s okay for you to have a lower EBITDA.

If you hire a salesperson who brings in a client that ends up being a retained relationship, that’s fine, as long as you measure the percentages and outcome you’re looking to make. Keep in mind, if you want to build a big agency without outside capital, lowering your EBITDA target will give you more money to invest in the business.

Bottom line, your business is the best investment you can make.

How Much Cash Flow Should Your Agency Have?

Jon believes everyone should have two bank accounts at minimum, three if you manage media.

• Operating Account: this is the one you’ll use to pay your employees, taxes, and bills. You should always have 1 month of payroll and 35% of your quarterly profits in this account. It should be enough to pay your bills at any given moment in time.
• Savings Account: Here you should have your monthly overhead. Double the sum of all your expenses (like payroll, sales and marketing, traveling, and entertainment x 2). Rule of thumb for savings is two months and could be up to six months if 1-2 clients make up most of your revenue or if you are project-based.
• Media Account: This is not your money. You have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that money is completely separated and you’re not using it for anything other than the client ad spend.

Looking at Your Revenue in Terms of Percentage of Each Client

How much of your revenue do your top five clients represent? For instance, one of Jon’s clients has 123 clients, and the top 18 account for half their revenue. It's important to understand your agency's client concentration and strategize to reduce it.

Whenever Jon won a big account that became a large percentage of their evenue, he increased his sales and marketing to go win the next big account. He was really, understandably, scared of being dependent on any single customer.

Dos and Don’ts of Credit Lines

Jon and Jason agree if you have a positive 12-month trailing EBITDA, you should get a line of credit. However, you shouldn’t use it to use it fuel the growth of your business but rather for cash management purposes.

If you have a big account like Procter and Gamble – known to pay in a net 120 days – you may want to use a line of credit to make payroll. It may be an account you really want but you can’t negotiate better payment terms and that’s fine. Having a line of credit is important in those scenarios. Where you shouldn’t use it is to invest to grow your business.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Have you considered creating a course to attract clients? How about having so much business you need to start a waitlist? Creating a course is one way to pour your knowledge and experience into content that gains interest in your agency services. Today’s show guest started making courses and offering mentorship which eventually led to a mastermind, where clients and potential clients share ideas and experiences. She's sharing how this positive for her agency led to having a waitlist of clients wanting to work with them.

Katie Wight is the founder and CEO of KWContent, a social media marketing agency specializing in growing audiences, engaging consumers, and amplifying clients’ impact through their best-in-class content and social media strategy. Recently, Katie decided to offer courses where brands get access to her agency’s frameworks and methodologies. Today, she shares the success this move turned out to be for her agency.

In this interview, we’ll talk about:

• Toxic leadership that holds back the team.
• Generating so many leads you can pick and choose clients.
• Developing your own client community or mastermind.
• The biggest lie about agency growth.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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Toxic Leadership That Holds Back the Team

After a great experience in her first job, Katie worked for several months at a company where the toxic work environment fostered by the leadership led to very high turnover rates. At first, she was very excited to work with them. However, she slowly realized they didn’t necessarily live their external company values and mission. This was an immediate turnoff for someone who really values company culture. Additionally, she went from having flexible work hours to having to adhere to a strict work schedule.

Lack of alignment and a roadmap makes it really hard to delegate tasks. It eventually became an obstacle when Katie was setting up the company’s content strategy and growing the brand on social media. Unfortunately, this had been previously handled by the founder, who did not provide proper direction. It was a situation where the company leader was not ready to delegate control of the company’s social media. Without this support, she just couldn’t do her job properly.

As agency owner, most of us aren't prepared to be good leaders from the start. It's not something that comes instinctively to most, however, stepping down from certain tasks is a necessary part of your agency’s growth. In cases like this, failing to do so turned the owner into the problem. Why are so many amazing brands terrible places to work? It all comes back to leadership.

Following this experience, Katie did the math on how what it would take replace her income. And suddenly, she had started an agency.

Generating So Many Leads You Can Pick and Choose Clients

Back in 2019, Katie’s agency reached $500K in revenue and she started delegating some of her work. She knew she needed to systemize everything so she spent time and resources building that out. If you’ve gone through this process with your agency, you know that systemizing your creative process is no easy feat but it was just what needed done at that point.

By the time the pandemic hit in 2020, she had a very small team and no "essential brands" as clients that could keep functioning during the lockdowns. It was a scary time but it became clear she had to lean into the educational component as a pivot for her agency. After spending so much time systemizing her process, she was ready. It was perfect timing since a lot of smaller brands were trying to figure out how to pivot online.

The agency's first course offering was a very comprehensive view of the purpose of social media marketing: what it’s meant to do, how to systemize it, and align it to your goals.

It helped a lot of clients understand what they needed to focus on and what work they could stop doing. Some of them finished the course and asked for more or even mentorships in specific areas. Yet others wanted to hire the agency for their services.

This was game-changing for Katie's agency because it brought a lot of business to the agency.  While they used to pay for leads, now they have a waitlist for calls and scan the list of companies to pick and choose who they want to work.

Offering Mentorship and a Client Mastermind for Additional Growth

The first year of the course went really well and it impacted their sales, conversion rates, and overall business. Everything seemed to be working and attendees were asking for more. They also learned a lot about who they were capable to advise and the kind of work they most enjoyed doing.

It was clear, following the course people wanted to work with KW Content. And they were being asked for more than just social media. A lot of people on her team had worked for big brands that had gotten to the level where their clients wanted to go. This experience established authority within her team and they were confident that they could advise clients on growth. The next natural step was forming a mastermind.

A mastermind is an opportunity for your clients to talk to each other and share what’s working for them. If you can get them together as an added bonus of working with you, it can be beneficial for all. Also, by just connecting people you are almost ensuring your clients recommend your services to others.

The Biggest Lie about Agency Business Growth

For the first couple of years of the course, Katie and her team just tried to deliver everything clients wanted. Because of this, they ended up burnt out. After working themselves to exhaustion and needing a break, Katie learned the importance of measuring happiness as an important KPI.

The biggest lie about business growth is the more you do the faster you’ll grow. It used to be "hustle harder, " right?  Instead, Katie realized her agency has continued growing without being IN everything. What she recommends for agency owners feeling burned out right now is to never bite off more than they can chew. It may sound like a crazy thing to say to entrepreneurs, but the best advice for her is to find something you do very well and stay focused on that.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Are you trying to improve your client retention rate? How often do you communicate with your clients? Building a good relationship with your clients starts immediately after they sign on to work with your agency. Today’s guest takes us through his process of creating a level of trust with clients that make them want to stay. With clear goals set from the start and constant communication, they’ve only lost one client in ten years!

Jeff Barnes is Chairman of Barnes Health, the strategic healthcare marketing, and public relations agency be started in 2003. He began his career in the healthcare marketing and public relations space on the client side 34 years ago. Being able to look at things from the client’s perspective has been a plus for him as he has really focused on building good relationships with them. He sets clear goals and always makes them feel like they are the priority.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Keeping client churn rates at a minimum.
• Why constant communication and a clear process are the key.
• Why you should strive to find clients that really fit with your agency.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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Jumping From the Client-Side to Agency-Side

Jeff had been working in healthcare marketing and public relations for 15 years before joining “the dark side” of the agency world. Basically, he wanted the freedom and more flexible hours of being an agency owner. Back then, there weren’t many marketing firms in the healthcare niche, so he saw a good opportunity.

Barnes Health started with one client and the agency has grown significantly since. He still has that first client and, actually, a total of four legacy clients that have worked with the agency for 20 years.

Jeff has always preferred to work with a retainer pricing model. Some agencies may feel clients take advantage of working under a retainer expecting too many services under the retainer umbrella. However, the most important advantage for Jeff is having a guaranteed revenue, which helps him sleep at night. Nowadays, retainer clients account for about 95% of the agency’s revenue.

How to Keep Agency Client Turnover Rate At a Minimum

The average agency turnover is 25% for a variety of reasons. With these statistics, Jeff usually gets bewildered looks when he says he’s only lost 1 client in 10 years.

What’s his secret? Well, he’s learned from speaking with his clients most agencies are exceptionally good at the front end. They sell their services with a dynamic attitude and promise that gets clients excited for working with them. However, client success is an important KPI and many agencies fail when it comes to customer service.

There are two components to an agency 1) client acquisition and 2) client service.

It is a lot easier to retain an existing client than to get a new one, so Jeff focuses on providing great customer service to keep the turnover rate at a minimum. He has trained his team to communicate with clients on a regular basis and have a quick response time for any questions they may have. Each client, big or small, should feel like they’re the #1 most important client.

Remember if you neglect clients, they’ll probably start wondering why they’re working with you and start looking for other opportunities. Answer the unasked questions -- and if you don't communicate it, they don't know it happened.

Setting Clear Goals to Get Clients On Board With Your Strategy

The moment a client agrees to work with your agency, you should quit promoting yourself and immediately transition to learning as much as you can about that client. Focus especially on their goals, objectives, and the criteria under which your work will be measured for success.

The more educated and informed you are about every aspect of their operations, the more valuable you can be to your clients. Jeff’s team typically gets clients to sign off on the strategic plan that they build together. They list the goals and objectives with clarity on who is responsible, the timeframe, and how success is to be measured.

The overall strategy is documented and everyone on the team and the client is familiar with each step. It may be revised from time to time, but the client should always have access to the documents.

Maintaining A Good Relationship With Clients

Jeff favors constant communication with clients on a regular basis, even daily at times. In his opinion, this shows the agency is a very valuable resource for them. If there is no communication for three or four days, his team reaches out to make sure everything is in order - follow up on an email or run an idea by them.

He also emphasizes how important it is to do this with both smaller and bigger clients. The amount of attention should not vary based on size or a client's portion to topline revenue.

Moreover, this way of working helps you be more selective with your clients. If you don’t feel like communicating constantly with your clients, then there’s probably an issue there. Don’t take in clients that you don’t want to communicate with. You’ll start resenting them and feel burnt out.

Adapting Your Agency To a Changing Market

The one constant in life changes, and in the agency world, you better be ready to adapt to a changing market. Jeff has had a long career and in those years he has learned to adapt to the internet, websites, and social media. New things are coming now with novelties like the Metaverse and NFTs which he says he will leave to his team to understand and educate him.

To adapt to changing times, he likes to hire young professionals who understand and are using the newest technologies. It’s so important to stay ahead of  new trends because a lot of the work marketing firms do has to do with consultation. Staying on top of emerging technology, educating and informing clients about new tools is the best way to present new ideas to your clients.

However, Jeff says he is careful to not portray his team as being good at everything. It’s better to actually be great at one thing than to pretend to be good at everything. As a client, he always asked agencies what they were great at. If they answered everything, he knew they weren't a good fit.

Your Goals Should Reflect the People You Want to Work With

It's important to have clear goals of what you want to accomplish in your agency. Your goals should go beyond a revenue level. Go deeper with your goals and really create a future vision. What type of lifestyle and freedom do you hope to have? What do you need in order to really love your work and your business? Do you know what sort of people you want to work with?

For his part, Jeff credits his love for the business a being selective with which clients his agency takes on. In 20 years, he has been fortunate to never have felt like quitting. Regular communication with clients does not frustrate him because he actually likes the people he's working with and doesn't have any “nightmare clients.”

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

Do you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency? Then go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Leverage Media Opportunities to Achieve Agency Business Growth

Looking to use new media opportunities to build momentum for your digital agency and gain new agency business growth?

In this episode we cover:

• How to create a media pitch that scores an interview
• Ways to prepare for the interview, and how to knock it out of the park
• When and how to promote your media opportunity to promote agency business growth

A feature in the media can be a killer lead generator! My guest, Dana Barrett has got a ton of tips for us on getting media attention - and she should know! Dana hosts a daily business talk show on Atlanta 1190AM radio and is a panelist on Tech Edge, a local TV show. She typically interviews 1-2 companies across different sectors every single day! In this episode of The Smart Agency Master Class she talks with me about how a small business can get media attention, what to do once you score an interview and how to keep the momentum going when it’s over.

Make a Pitch

Reach out with a simple and direct email pitch. Be clear on what you do, why it’s different and who you serve. You must capture the reader’s attention in the first 2-3 sentences! Also, show you’ve done your homework by stating why you are a good fit with this audience of listeners, viewers or readers. Don’t throw in a bunch of stats, figures, or “hoopla”, as Dana calls it. The subject line should be equally as direct, like “Possible Show Guest”.

Prepare for the Interview

Know your stuff and be ready to talk about it freely. Dana’s pet peeve: being given a list of topics or questions to avoid. Instead, she says, learn how to address those things even if you have to put on a politician hat and just say during the interview, “I’m not willing to discuss that today.” Local media want to help you tell your story, so give them the talking points you do want to address.

Dana also says you must able to speak about your business in an unrehearsed way. Be confident and genuine. Radio interviews are probably easier than TV interviews because there are less people watching you during the interview but regardless of who’s in the room remember you are there to build relationships both the audience and the interviewer. People want to know who you are, what you stand for, and why you are special. If they can get behind you for those things, then sales will result from it.

Lastly, don’t be boring! Interacting with the media gives your brand a personality that will either resonate with the audience or... it won’t.  But, no pressure! :)

Promote the Heck Out of It to Generate Agency Business Growth

Before, during and after…. post it, tweet it and promote it. Whatever your social media platforms, give a it’s imperative to make sure your social followers know about it prior to the interview, the day of, the hour before and for weeks afterwards. Today, everything lives digitally for all of eternity - use that to your benefit!

Also, treat your interviewer as you would any other networking contact. It’s not “one and done”... you can continue to help each other out. Remember, they’re getting something out of this, too. You are providing them with good content and delivering an audience. It’s a win-win.

Media exposure can be an awesome way to generate leads! And, if you want to learn even more ways to generate leads check out my Generate Leads Everyday program with invaluable tactics and strategies you can implement for immediate results. My clients are generating 25-50+ leads every day using this program.

Discover the best Digital Agency Strategies today. Get Online Training to help you setup the right systems and strategies to help you grow faster.

What's Next for your Agency?

Through leveraging media opportunities, you could see a large increase in agency business growth but this could be detrimental to your business if you aren't prepared to handle it.

To create the best business possible, you need to look at your agency in the bigger picture to find your strong areas as well as weak spots and then think of how you can fix them. No matter what challenge your agency is facing, I can help you get through all of it.

Through my experience running my own digital agency and helping other digital agency owners, there are many topics I can offer guidance on whether you are an established agency facing struggles to new agencies unsure of what the different phases of growth you will experience will look like.

Growing your agency team can also be a major struggle for any agency owner and I can show from knowing when it’s time to hire a sales manager or expand your sales team to perfecting your business strategy with creating a process for performance based pricing and how to keep your big name clients happy.

Are you ready to create something cool and want more advice? Learn about my career and different experiences as well as tips, tricks and insights by checking out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

Check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my YouTube channel. There you will find advice from me and other agency experts.

Have you considered bringing on a partner to lighten the immense pressure of solo agency leadership? Do fears around lacking key skills or experience hold you back from taking the entrepreneurial leap yourself? When today’s guest launched his first agency, self-doubt around “going it alone” led him to take on a co-founder partnership. But without aligned goals from day one, hairline fractures quickly formed.

As their once amicable agency grew and priorities diverged, he outgrew the partnership and they went their separate ways. In this interview, he’ll talk about why he didn’t go into a partnership for the right reasons, how the dynamic between he and his partner worked, and how they went about the adjustment process after the split. Tune in if you’re an agency owner trying to figure out whether a partnership would be right for you.

Rob Rosasco is the founder and driving force behind Too Darn Loud Digital Marketing, a boutique agency that specializes in assisting law firms to amplify their presence and reach. Rob reflects on his early days in the industry, his eventual venture into starting his own agency, and the initial fears that led him to start his business with a partner. He goes into the dynamics of the partnership and how eventually he found himself outgrowing it, both professionally and in terms of the vision for the company.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Building an exit strategy after outgrowing your partner.
• Dividing the agency when selling is off the table.
• Preparing an ironclad clause for an agency partner breakup.

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Outgrowing Co-Founders: Building Exit Strategies into Agency Partnerships

After working for a larger company in the legal marketing space for eight years, Rob felt starting his own business would be a natural transition. His journey into entrepreneurship began with a mixture of ambition and caution. Initially hesitant to venture solo into the competitive arena of digital marketing, he decided to start his business with a partner. This decision, born out of a desire to mitigate the challenges of launching and running a business independently, marked the beginning of a significant phase in his career.

At the heart of Rob's professional expertise is a profound understanding of sales and client engagement, a skill set essential for the growth of his venture. Despite his extensive experience, he recognized the need for support in areas like back-office operations, web development, and SEO. So he resolved to partner with someone who could complement his skills and share the entrepreneurial journey.

The relationship worked exactly as he had envisioned for a while, with his partner working his excellent selling skills to get clients while Rob ran the business. As the business evolved, Rob found himself at a crossroads. Both he and the agency outgrew his partner who got comfortable staying at a certain point in terms of growth. After seven years, the differing visions and philosophies between him and his partner necessitated a reevaluation of their partnership. However, their operating agreement did not include language for this specific situation where one partner was dissatisfied with the other’s contribution.

Rob's experience is not just a tale of business strategy and partnership dynamics; it emphasizes the importance of having clear terms in any business partnership, especially provisions for situations where partners may need to part ways due to divergent goals or strategies.

When Selling's Off the Table: Divvying Up Split Partnerships

Not all partnerships have to end this way. If you have a business partner and are thinking about parting ways, think hard about whether you have irreconcilable differences or just need to make a few changes. Having fundamental differences in your approach to the business, vision, and philosophy is very different from just needing a new role. If you do decide you just don’t see eye to eye in the business anymore, then it’s better to part ways sooner rather than later.

By the time both partners accepted it was no longer working out, they considered different options like splitting or one of them buying the other out. Selling the agency seemed like a possibility in the beginning, having already received some decent offers. However, Rob and his partner couldn’t agree on what constituted a fair amount.

Rob pushed to buy his partner out to have the company as a whole, but it wasn’t possible. Since neither of them wanted to sell, it came down to splitting their customer base down the middle. It wasn’t what he wanted, but it was the solution that ultimately avoided a long legal battle.

Preparing for Bitter Ends: Ironclad Clauses & Agency Breakups

After the split, Rob and his former partner were able to chart a new course through thoughtful negotiation. With the client base divided 50/50, it was time to also decide who their employees would continue to work with. Four of their employees went to work with Rob while another two split their time between both as they went through the transition. As to their clients, they were informed as soon as the deal was made. However, it would be another four to six months before they’d see real changes like new bank accounts and invoices. Overall, it was a very successful transition, considering they didn’t lose neither clients nor team members in the process.

Golden Nugget: While their approach went smoothly, the experience revealed gaps in his agency legal safeguards. When co-founders part ways, air-tight client contracts become essential. Specifically, it’s important to include a clause in your client agreement clarifying you can transfer those contracts in case of a sale.

For context: smaller agencies (under $5M revenue) typically transact as asset sales. This means the buyer purchases all client contracts and can onboard accounts without seeking added approval.

But without explicit clauses permitting easy account transfers, securing signatures of dozens (or hundreds) of clients amidst an agency sale sounds nightmarish. As does trying to exclude accounts unwilling to switch over.

Come sale time, this clause spares chaotic scramble to confirm who stays and who goes. The buyer inherits your book of business cleanly. No need to parse accounts in the midst of a turbulent ownership shuffle..

It may feel premature early on, but it ultimately provides flexibility to pivot strategically as your agency evolves. Whether a bitter founder split or lucrative acquisition offer, you dictate the terms without complications.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

Want some tax-saving tips for your agency that will help you save money and avoid an audit being carried out on your digital agency?

In this episode, we discuss:

• How to protect your business, financially and legally.
• Ways to lower your taxes and other tax-saving tips.
• The IRS’s big secret on audits. This is HUGE!

Super-fun CPA and friend to U.S. agencies, Jason Blumer of Blumer CPA’s chatted with me about several tax-saving tips along with a few words of caution, and one big IRS secret on this episode of The Smart Agency Master Class.

Blumer founded and runs a virtual CPA firm with a team of 8 around the country who are specifically geared toward accounting for design, web and marketing agencies. (See? He’s niching his firm and you should be, too. But that’s another topic for another day :)) Keep in mind the advice here is just general. Your specific situation and questions about your agency should be discussed in detail with your own CPA.

What type of business classification is best for your agency?

Best advice: protect yourself and be something other than simply “self-employed.”

A sole proprietor should set up a limited liability corporation (LLC). This designation provides legal protection and operational flexibility, however there are no tax benefits. An LLC pays twice the self-employment tax since regular employees have the benefit of the self-employment tax being matched by their employer.

An S Corp can save you a lot in terms of tax dollars, however, the hoops to jump can be pain. You must have a system for payroll and deductions, including paying yourself a salary. That means paying payroll taxes, too. Therefore, what you save in taxes can be swallowed up quickly by paying out professional fees to a payroll service.

Keep in mind, that an LLC can transition into an S Corp as they grow. Blumer says he advises his clients netting $80-90k+ to go the S Corp route.

Tax Saving Tips: What’s the best way to lower my taxes?

This is always a hard one. If you make money, you’re going to pay taxes.

The best tax-saving tip and way to lower taxes is to spend money reinvesting in your business which ultimately lowers your net profit, meaning less taxable income. Retail or manufacturing businesses have it a little easier. They can buy equipment to invest back into their business. Service-based businesses are a little difficult to advise in this area. And agencies? We’re the worst. All we sell are our ideas.

Blumer says your best bet is investing cash in a retirement plan for yourself. Depending on the type of plan you set up you’ll benefit your taxes and your team. Other ways to save include training/educating your team.

Small businesses like to lower their tax burden with these 2 tactics:

You might think you are saving a ton on taxes if you’re doing one or both of these things. That’s only true if you’re doing them right. Here’s the real deal on the best tax-saving options...

1.Being a virtual agency

Technically, if you have a team that’s spread out around the country you should be paying taxes in every state where you’ve got people. There are states with no state tax such as Florida, Texas, and Washington. There are also states that make it a major pain in the ass to be self-employed, like California, New York, and Pennsylvania. Tax laws vary by state, so be sure to check things out for the state(s) your in.

And, if you’re not sure if you’ve got all your bases covered, talk to your account about it. Blumer CPA’s offers an Exposure Tax Analysis. This is a discovery of your tax liability to see if you’re compliant and in what areas you might be exposed. If your tax firm doesn’t offer something similar, I know a guy… :)

2. Having all (or mostly all) freelancers

If you’re doing it correctly this is a good way to avoid paying employer taxes. But your freelancers have to actually play the part of a freelancer. The term "freelancer" or "contractor," in regard to taxes, is determined by the IRS. To be legit, your freelancers must be able to answer “yes” to all of these questions:

• Is there actually a contract in place?
• Do they invoice you for their time?
• Are they using their own equipment (computer, phone)?
• Are they available to work for others?

This tax saving tip is simple. If they don’t look like a contractor on paper, you need to have payroll systems in place and pay taxes on them. 

Want to know the IRS’s biggest secret on audits?

They don’t really want us to know, but the IRS is in real trouble. They don’t have the ability to enforce things like they once did.... A possible impeachment of the Commissioner coupled with losing budget dollars means they don’t have the leverage to effectively audit. It’s somewhat of a vicious cycle -- they’re losing tax dollars because they can’t run audits, and they can’t run audits because they can afford to.

So, that’s kinda good for us. But, they DO still audit and audit selections are done totally at random.

The good news: less than ⅓ of 1% of businesses get audited. In fact, with 20 years in the business, Blumer’s only seen 2 or 3 audits ever. Don’t get too comfortable with those statistics, though. The IRS is still looking for ways to penalize and fine you. Make sure you’re compliant so you can avoid one of their nasty-grams.

What to do if you are contacted by the IRS

If you get something from the IRS, let your CPA or tax attorney handle it. There are things you should and shouldn’t say. There are also things you should and shouldn’t give them. Don’t be so scared that you hand everything over - that just opens a bigger can of worms. If you receive a notice, always question it. If it comes with a penalty, don’t pay it right away. These notices are computer-generated and often wrong. Some are even waivable. Your accountant knows how to handle each situation while saving you time and potentially, some money.

Looking for a Great Group of Like-Minded Agency Owners?

My Agency Mastermind group has been wildly successful for lots of motivated agency owners looking to grow and scale their businesses. If you’d like to share thoughts, ideas, problems and solutions with people in your shows, check out my upcoming group. We meet every two weeks, so it’s not a huge time commitment but the benefits are immeasurable. You can read more details here and if you’re interested there is a brief application process. You’ll fill out a quick form and then I’ll let you know if the group is a good fit for you.

Build Your Agency Authority

I hope this episode with Jason has provided some fantastic tax-saving tips for you and agency audits are no longer a concern. Creating the best agency possible means being able to recognize other challenges you are facing within your agency. Why not take the time to take a step back and look at other processes that need attention? No matter what challenges your agency is facing, I can help you get through all of it.

There are many topics I can give advice on from what to do when you want to speed up sales processes to how you can build authority for your agency.

Growing your agency can be a major struggle for any agency owner and I can show you the different phases of growth you will experience, how placing a process for performance-based pricing can be the best pricing strategy for your business and the three questions you need to ask yourself to sell more!

Want more? Learn about my career and different experiences as well as tips, tricks, and insights by checking out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

Check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my YouTube channel. There you will find advice from me and other agency experts.

Do you know how relationship equity could help you grow your business and establish yourself as a category of one? Michael Stamatinos has always thought of himself as a connector. His love for building bridges and connections led him to the business development, marketing, and sales world. He founded Omorfi, an agency that empowers individuals to take a leadership role in their community and he focused on his passion for the healthcare sector, the role of leadership in communities, and helping people make connections. In this episode, he sat down with Jason to talk about how relationship equity became the core of all his interactions with the people in his life, how agency owners could use this concept to improve their relationships with clients and peers, and how being passionate about your business can really help you establish yourself as a category of one.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Relationship equity. Michael considers himself to be a connector. He loves creating connections between people and really believes in the concept of relationship equity. To him, relationships are like a bank account, you have to make sure to make a deposit and you have enough money before making a withdrawal or a purchase. “There are folks that are very quick to make massive withdrawals and they haven't substantiated,” he explains. People will sometimes try to get something from a person without first establishing a true connection with them and building trust. How can you do that? By taking that relationship and multiplying it by time and by value. That is what truly builds relationship equity.
2. How can agency owners use it? Relationship equity is all about connections and being bridge builders. Agency owners can really benefit from this approach when they focus on really understanding who it is that you're trying to serve and know what it is that's going on in their environment and in their world. Understand it so well that they think, this person really gets me and my business. But this is something that you can also take to your relationship with peers. “It's amazing what doors can be opened when you try to approach the world from a place of abundance,” Michael assures.
3. Be in a category of one. Having that connection and understanding of your client’s business and needs will happen especially when you find a niche you’re really passionate about. When there's a connection that allows you the opportunity to start building and cultivating that relationship and building that bridge, this is the start of establishing yourself as a category of one in your industry. This way, you can empathize with and what they're going through and ask how can I help? Who can I connect you to?

Sponsors and Resources

Sharpspring: Today's episode is sponsored by Sharpspring, an all-in-one revenue growth platform that provides all of the marketing automation, CRM, & sales features you need to support your entire customer lifecycle. Partner with an affordable marketing automation provider that you can trust. Head over to sharpspring.com/smartagency to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Investing in Relationship Equity and Establishing Yourself as a Category of One

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Excited to have another amazing episode. We're going to talk about relationship equity, and you're going to want to really hear what we're going to talk about and I got an amazing guest. So let's go ahead and get into the show.

Hey, Michael. Welcome to the show.

Michael: [00:00:22] Hey, it's good to be here.

Jason: [00:00:23] Yeah. So tell us who you are and what do you do?

Michael: [00:00:27] Uh, so Michael Stamatinos. Managing partner of Omorfi and we work with clients that are focused on growth. We work on strategic growth initiatives with some execution services.

So it really boils down to one word: access, access to the right people, access to the right strategic partners, and in some cases, access to the right growth capital. So we really view ourselves as bridge builders and connectors at heart. I am a connector and that's really what we're focused on.

So come from a pretty humble background. Parents are both immigrants, so grew up working in restaurants, being Greek, and just love working with people to the point where I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. And after my training, I realized that I didn't want to be in living receptacle to people's stuff. I still wanted to help people.

So gravitate it into the world of business development, marketing, and sales, and been there ever since.

Jason: [00:01:18] So I'm dying to ask you and you. And you probably get asked this a lot just based on how you did the intro about your family being Greek and in the restaurant business. Is your family like the Big Fat Greek Wedding?

Michael: [00:01:29] 100% Yes.

Jason: [00:01:33] How many cousins do you have?

Michael: [00:01:35] We have several cousins named Nick and Peter and Costa, and it's very family-oriented. And my dad is quite a character, you know. When he talks to people, he's very animated, loves to tell stories. My mom's a little bit more of sort of the, just a homemaker, very peaceful, very calm. So sort of the ying and yang there. But my dad was a really hard worker and just grinded for a long time and stayed consistent.

I think if there's anything that I've taken from him, it's that. Staying consistent and having discipline.

Jason: [00:02:07] Awesome. Well, let's talk about relationship equity. How do you view this?

Michael: [00:02:13] So I have an interesting story of how that kind of came about. So as I mentioned earlier, yeah, I'm a connector. I've always been a connector my whole entire life.

I get a lot of joy out of putting people together, regardless of whether something's in it for me or not. And I was in a meeting one day with a client… And I don't know if you've ever had, if this has ever happened to you, but I got a stream of thoughts that were so clear that I had to excuse myself from the meeting.

And I call it, I got a memo from that office, if you know what I'm saying. And that hadn't happened to me up until that point in my life. So I left that meeting. I always carry a little notebook with me. So I jotted down three sort of overlapping circles with a circle in the middle that intersects all the other circles.

And I called it relationship equity, and really relationships are very similar to a bank account. When you initially start a bank account, you deposit some money. Well, if you want to go out and purchase something after you've started your bank account, you would draw some money. The reality is that if you continue to withdraw and you want to make a big purchase and you don't have enough money in there deposited, it's going to say insufficient funds.

And that's really how I'm seeing the world now is that there are folks that are very quick to make massive withdrawals and they haven't substantiated. They'll do withdrawals by putting in deposits into that account. And sort of the three circles within relationship equity, that makeup relationship equity rather is trust. How do you build trust with people?

Well, you have to have some level of authenticity and I'm not here trying to be someone that I'm not. I'm a real person, normal person. And there has to be some sort of a connection. In our case, it was through, you know, one of your members, Pete, Pete Cunningham. And that's how we really kind of transferred that relationship equity.

And so there's that trust that. And then how do you build that relationship? Well, you take that trust and you multiply it over time. And it doesn't necessarily have to be long stretches of time. It could be short, such as it's on there's some folks that have gotten really close to in short amount of time.

And then how do you build equity within that relationship? Well, you take that relationship and you multiply it by value. And the way that I define value for me is helping someone for the sake of helping them not having a hidden agenda. And when you do all those things, you build relationship equity. So when people ask me, what game am I in?

I'm in the game of building relationship equity all the time. Whether it be with my wife, with my kids, with my friends and family and with clients and prospects. That's what I'm doing. And that's look, that's what got me here today. I didn't reach out to you and ask you to be on your show. It was through a series of activities of trying to add value and trying to be helpful and building relationship equity, which inevitably was transferred to this particular moment here.

So this is something that I'm going to be doing until I'm not here anymore, regardless.

Jason: [00:05:10] Yeah. I love the term and I've always told people, you know, especially cause they're like, hey, let me, uh, you got the audience I want. I'll give you this amount of money. I'm like, no, it just doesn't work that way.

I'm like, you got to make deposits before you're withdrawing. I mean, a great example… It's always been, since I've been a kid, my grandfather worked on the long island railroad and I've always wanted to ride in front of the steam engine. And I met this one guy, Greg, that a mutual friend introduced us because he usually takes off a lot of time. We go play.

And so we started kind of a couple of weeks ago, epic Fridays. So we just go out, climb mountains, do some really cool stuff. And I was telling him, you know, we were talking about like bucket list items and stuff like that. And I was like, man, you know, I've always wanted a ride in a steam engine.

He's like, I know the owner of the Durango Silverton Railroad. Let me call them up for you. He surprised me. And so in the next couple of days, I'm going to get to ride, hit the whistle and everything. So just, just from relationships, like I didn't ask for that. So…

Michael: [00:06:17] It's amazing. It's amazing what doors can be opened when you try to approach the world from a place of abundance and not to sound all woo or anything.

But when you really try to add value and try to really help people for the sake of helping people, not only are you advancing society at large, but I dunno, it just, there's more opportunities that have come across my desk that I could ever take advantage of. It's just trying to be, be that way. So I think I'm going to keep doing that.

Jason: [00:06:41] Yeah. I mean, there's so many examples. I, you know, I think of, you know, in our mastermind, you know, some members like Dunkin or Ian or Jeremy. They provide so much value to the membership, but they get so much business back and that's not their whole intent. Like they don't go in it saying like you were saying, well, what can I get from this?

It's like, I'm going to give, but then whenever they need anything, like people are like, I'll give you the shirt off my back. What do you need? And they're just people that recognize that you really start scaling… You know, I was very minded, many years of my career, like, oh, you're in this business, I'm going to take you down.

And then I'm like, no, no, no, you can build relationships and work with people. And even if you never get anything back from it, you feel good by doing it.

Michael: [00:07:30] Yeah. The currency that I play with is relationship equity. And I get, as I mentioned earlier, like I view myself as a bridge builder. And what better way to live life than to continue to build bridges, show people how to build bridges. In other instances, you're doing the bridge building for them.

But then you're also building tools to show people how to build bridges. I mean, I didn't go to a fancy school. I don't have any of these fancy degree. I didn't go in and I didn't do any of that stuff. And somehow I pinch myself sometimes when I find myself in some of these meetings with people, quite frankly, that sometimes I'm like, wow, how did I get here? Oh my gosh. And I did.

And it has a lot to do with knowing how to get access to just scale. And it's all about building relationship equity.

Jason: [00:08:18] Yeah. So the agency owners listening in, is there any steps or there's no trickery here, but if they're thinking, well, man, I would like to build more relationships and I'm thinking back, you know, a couple of years ago for me, I was crappy at building relationships.

Like it's very hard to get in with me. Once you're in, you're in, you know, I was always closed minded and that kind of stuff. So how can agency owners benefit from this?

Michael: [00:08:47] The way that agency owners can benefit from it is as follows is, understand who it is that you're trying to serve and know what it is that's going on in their environment and in their world and know it's so well to the point where they're like, wow, this person really understands me.

That's how you connect with people. You having been a former agency owner and knowing the growing pains, the ins and outs you'd been there before. And when you're trying to serve a specific niche or market and you understand problems that are very… And I'm not talking about just surface level deep, I'm talking about going four or 5, 6, 7 levels down.

That's when there's a connection that allows you the opportunity to start building and cultivating that relationship and building that bridge. So it starts there. And then the other thing that you really are trying to do is you really are going to have to position yourself as being, you know, that category of one.

That truly understands that market. I mean, you have quite a niche and I'm assuming it wasn't, it was, it didn't happen by chance. This was done by design. And it had a lot to do with how you position yourself and how you understood the pain points that agency owners were going through.

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Yeah, I always tell everybody I'm like, you have to know your audience you're going after and understand what they're feeling. Not their problem, but yes, you have to understand their problem, but how does that problem actually make them feel? And then empathize with them. You know, there's many people that do what I do that has no empathy and they just, they just kind of go shouting down from their fake mountain going, hey, I can help you, you know, look at what all the shit I've done.

Versus like, I've been what you're going through. I totally get it. How can I help? Who can I connect you to? You know, one of the things I always tell people after I, I meet with them, like, is there any back connect you with? Because I do believe, like you were saying, you're a connector, you know, I've seen that, like the people that go, hey, you need to meet this person.

And then whenever they're like, man, that relationship was amazing. Thanks so much, Jason. You know, and then just keep building on that. So I totally agree with all this. It's so easy. It's not like rocket science. I think you have to be aware in order to do it and kind of almost, you're almost kind of changing yourself a little bit because I think early on, I think we're all takers versus givers and when you give yeah, you get more.

Michael: [00:12:10] And there's a great book called The Go-Giver and it's, I'm looking at something that I've described to as a kid, that there's something that when you shift from everyone defines success differently, by the way. For me, it's about being able to have the time and money to do what it is that I want to do and do it with the people that I want to do with and having great relationships with those people.

I mean, at the end of the day, I'm not a slave to money. Don't get me wrong. It's, it's an important aspect of things that it's not the end all be all. And when you really place your identity outside of that, you start to make this shift from being successful to then being significant. So the shift from being successful to significant is it's a long journey and it takes a lot of work.

And I can't say that it was a smooth ride for me, and it's not, I'm not done. I'm not done by any stretch, just so have a lot of growing to do. And the best is yet to come.

Jason: [00:13:03] Yeah. And I think when you make that shift to significance, I remember when I sold the first agency, I was depressed and it was because I didn't have that significance.

And then when I was able to create the community that we've created and really connect all these amazing agency owners together. You know, then I was like, oh man, I feel like I'm on top of the world. Versus before I felt like I was on the top of the world by myself. And that sucked a lot of people look at it from the outside and they're like, oh, that's awesome.

I'm like, no, man. Like I enjoyed the journey. I enjoyed the climb. And now I feel like when you're connecting all these other people, you can be on their journey as well. And that's really pretty cool.

Michael: [00:13:46] It's like, you know, like, a Sherpa.

Jason: [00:13:49] Yeah, exactly. But I just, I can't climb as much. I can't climb as fast as, as those guys. That's amazing. Whenever you watch any of those Sherpas on Everest, I'm like, how are they doing this? And why would they want to do it?

Michael: [00:14:06] It's crazy to see that happen. But I think it's metaphoric too. The hardest clients usually have the best views does. But sometimes those climbs might not necessarily be successful. I mean, I have to tell you that, you know, part of my growth story , and I'd be remiss if I didn't say this, came through a failed startup.

I had placed everything into this, everything, you know, some people spend money to go do their MBA. I dropped every single thing that I had saved into this thing. And it didn't go well. And my identity was wrapped up into that. So having visions of grandeur, you know, making it and had, I knew just kind of looking back now because you know, you get kind of depressed when you lose everything.

It's, it's not a fun place. You learn a lot about yourself.

Jason: [00:14:56] But it makes you appreciate everything so much more as you're moving forward, because I was hiking the mountain yesterday and I was going through this thick brush and it just kept getting thicker and thicker. I couldn't get through it. So I had to backtrack. I had to go back down. And then find another route up.

And that's, that's everything. We do everything in business, in life, everything it's never a straight path. It's always the zigzags and knowing when to turn back, I mean, I could have probably made it through, but I would have been bloodied and banged up.

I was like, kinda like walking. So, awesome. Well, this has all been amazing. Michael, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Michael: [00:15:42] I think just to, just around knowing and taking that niche that you feel like you can be the best in the world. I mean, I didn't say this, but you know, we have a really big presence in the digital health space.

And it's sort of done by design in that aspect. And we've really positioned ourselves and placed ourselves to being in a category of one and pick something that you believe that you can be in a category of one and name it, name it, and tame it and proclaim it is the reality is that there's a lot of digital agencies that are out there and it's hard to differentiate.

So do your damn best to be able to do that and pick your claim and work it and work it and work it and work it and stay consistent over time. Consistency over time wins. I'm telling you that there's, you know, people may think that we're pretty successful at what we do, but I got a lot of scars on my back to showcase that it's been a long journey and we stayed consistent throughout the whole entire time.

Jason: [00:16:49] I love it. Yeah. You know, and you have to be passionate and whatever you pick don't choose it based on money. Like we were talking in the pre-show, why you chose healthcare and why you started working with other industries, like in plastic that you were like, oh, that's healthcare as well. Cause you're passionate about it.

And the more passionate about it, the more you're going to do, and it's going to resonate with your audience that you're going after. Versus just kind of getting a stupid course out there that says here's the most profitable niches for agencies and pick one.

Michael: [00:17:20] Um, I care about two things that I'm very passionate about, you know, relationship equity kind of really factors into this notion of access.

And the way that I view access is around customers, partners, etcetera, but on a broader scale access around access to care, access to things like food. I mean, there's 50 plus million Americans now that don't know where their next meal is going to come from. That's an access  Golproblem, access to, you know, so access is something I care very, very deeply about when I see people that can't get access or maybe someone that wants to try to get into a job and necessarily can't get in and, um, you know, that's an access problem.

And then the second thing that I believe that things hinge on is leadership. And there are leaders right now that are coming into some very influential roles that they're not necessarily tech savvy, they're tech dependent. They grew up with an iPhone. They grew up with a smartphone. And they view innovation as, as a differentiator, the view innovation as a way to generate more revenue.

And when you're working with a digital agency and aspect of what they do is innovation. And the way I define innovation is providing value to many. Then you can do that incrementally over time. So those things kind of combined, you know, really hinge on whether or not people are going to be accepting of adoption of some of these innovations that come through.

And that's exciting to me because you interact with people that you just problems that they're solving can inevitably make a pretty big radical shift and be part of that journey is an absolute privilege.

Jason: [00:19:00] Yeah, exactly. Awesome. What's the website people go and check you out if they want to reach out to you?

Michael: [00:19:06] Well, I'm on LinkedIn, so people can check me out on LinkedIn, Michael Stamatinos, and they can go to our website, michaelstamo.com and they can hear from us there.

Jason: [00:19:15] Awesome. Okay, everyone, go check that out. Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show. And if you guys want to build relations that equity and be around them, amazing agency owners all over the world that are sharing what's working. Having a lot of fun, passing a ton of business back and forth. I really never talked about that, but just really elevating each other along the way over the years.

I’d love for all of you to go check out digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind for agency owners that want to grow and scale faster and just be transparent and have a lot of fun.

So go to digitalagencyelite.com and until next time have a Swenk day.

Are you running your agency, or is your agency running you? Are you lacking the freedom you thought you'd have in your agency? Many owners start growing their agency, getting more clients, and hiring more people and quickly find they’ve built a prison for themselves. Today’s guest went through this and came up with a method to regain freedom and buy back your time. He now helps clients set up systems to identify their buyback rates and delegate tasks so they can maximize time and revenue.

Dan Martell is the CEO of SaaS Academy, the largest coaching company for software CEOs. He has owned and sold several agencies and continues to invest and buy companies through his company, High-Speed Ventures.

As a troubled teenager, Dan discovered his obsession with computer programming while serving time in a detention home. Many years later, he started and sold several companies. He has two venture companies and has been an angel investor in about 50 companies. He is currently CEO of SaaS Academy and is further developing his personal brand as an author. Today, he talks about his new book, Buy Back Your Time, where he details the method he created to help business owners regain their freedom.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• How to calculate buyback rate and conduct an audit of your time.
• 3 mistakes entrepreneurs make when they reach the pain line.
• 5 key hires to help you delegate and reclaim your time.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

How to Calculate Your Buyback Rate

The “buyback rate” is a concept that many entrepreneurs are embracing to avoid the “pain line.” This is the point where they can no longer balance their personal and business life. Dan's book explores the buyback rate in-depth and discusses how it can help you build a successful business while enjoying your personal life.

Dan, the author of Buy Back Your Time, teaches entrepreneurs to calculate their hourly revenue value to determine their buyback rate. To do this, divide your annual income by the number of hours you work per year, then divide that amount by four. The result is your buyback rate.

Calendar Audits to Identify Tasks You Can Delegate

Once you have your buyback rate, it's time to audit your calendar. Dan advises clients to audit their calendars for two weeks, highlighting tasks they enjoy in green and tasks that drain their energy in red. Each red task should be rated on a scale of one to ten based on the cost to outsource it. Tasks rated as one will cost ten dollars to outsource, tasks rated as two will cost twenty-five dollars, and so on.

After classifying tasks, Dan suggests that you work through the $1 tasks, the ones that will cost the least to outsource. While this might not free up a lot of your time at first, it's important to build the muscle of delegating.

Dan warns that buying back your time isn't about going to relax. It's about using that time to generate more revenue for your agency. It's important to avoid the "pain line," the point where people start making rushed decisions.

The "pain line" can cause entrepreneurs to stall, sabotage themselves, or sell their business, even if it's thriving. Dan has developed a replacement ladder with five levels to help you buy back your time gradually. The levels are Executive Assistant, Delivery, Marketing, Sales, and Leadership.

The Five Steps in the Replacement Ladder

Dan suggests starting with an Executive Assistant, who can help with scheduling and administrative tasks. Next, hire for Delivery, so you can delegate client work. Marketing and Sales come next, where you delegate lead generation, conversion, and follow-up. Finally, when you have a team in place, you can focus on Leadership.

Dan emphasizes that buying back your time isn't a one-time event. Instead, it's a loop that you should continually refine. It's essential to solicit feedback from your team to prevent stagnation.

In conclusion, the buyback rate is a useful concept for entrepreneurs who want to balance their personal and business life. By identifying the tasks they can delegate, entrepreneurs can focus on generating revenue and avoid the "pain line" that often causes them to stall, sabotage themselves, or sell their businesses. The buyback rate allows entrepreneurs to buy back their time gradually, building a team that can take over their day-to-day tasks, and create a successful business while enjoying their personal life.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Do you feel like a "me too" agency, but you're not sure how to break the chains? Do you want to create a differentiator you can use to grow faster? The agency space is changing. With Facebook pushing business owners to create their own campaigns and hundreds of new agencies popping up monthly, it can be tough to grow. You probably feel like your trapped in a small room and in a rut. Don't worry! There's a way out.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• 3 traits every agency owner needs.
• Why your agency needs to create a differentiator.
• 4 steps to creating and hosting agency events.

Today, I talked with Mike McCloud, President & CEO of MMA Creative and founder of the World Food Championships. Mike is a tried-and-true entrepreneur with agency DNA. Not only has Mike been in the agency space since 1991 (that's 29 years now!), but he leveraged his agency to help him create the hyper-successful World Food Championships event. That event now generates 95% of MMA Creative's revenue! So, how did an agency owner create a renowned food league with its own TV show and top-tier sponsors? Like this!

3 Traits Every Agency Owner Needs

Mike says these are the three traits every successful agency must have:

1. Contrarianism: Is everybody selling Facebook ads? Then you shouldn't be. Winning as an agency owner requires lacing up your boots to go on the road less traveled. Opportunity is everywhere. Sure! You can be a "me too" agency and settle for the crumbs. But why wouldn't you want the whole cake? You have to think outside-of-the-box. What is everyone doing wrong? What is everyone ignoring? Figure that out, and use it to grow.
2. Optimism: When tough times come knocking, you better be ready to answer. We all know that an economic downfall is on the horizon. It may not be today, but it's coming. And when it does, you need to be able to smile, sit down with your team, and figure out how to use that recession to your advantage. Never give up. Always have a trick up your sleeve. And persist through the good times and the not-so-good ones. Every agency owner is going to face situations where giving up is easier than pushing through.
3. Experimentalism: This is a big one! You need to be willing to try new things. All of these blog posts and marketing podcasts aren't going to tell you the next big thing. Once others have figured it out, it's no "the next big thing" anymore. It's just a thing. You have to experiment and find those amazing growth hacks yourself.

Why Your Agency Needs to Create a Differentiator

There are two big threats to agencies.

1. Business owners can live without you. As an agency, you're the middleman. Business owners can run Facebook ads without you. They can make creatives without you. And they can generate leads without you. They're probably not as good as you are, but they can. And as long as they can, some will.
2. There are thousands of other agencies offering what you have. If you're a "me too" agency, you're a commodity. If your pitches revolve around price, you're racing to the bottom. Your strength shouldn't be your price tag. But it often is.

Creating a differentiator eliminates those threats. What can you do that no one else can do? If you don't have an answer, find one. Mike created an event. But you don't have to. You can create an experience, a product, a service, or anything else your competitors can't. I've interviewed agency owners who use strategic gifting, promote their freak factor, and even build tech, just to name a few.

They all share one thing in common. They do something unique in order to stand out.

4 Simple Steps to Creating and Hosting Agency Events

Use your agency to catapult growth. While your agency is generating revenue, use some of it to experiment and create an amazing differentiator. Here's how Mike was able to create a massive food event using his agency as a springboard.

1. Be profitable: Creating a product, service, event, or experience requires, well... cash. If your agency isn't in the positive or you don't have enough income to support yourself adequately, focus on that first. Learn how to build an evergreen agency. Differentiators don't happen overnight. You'll need income to help you build one.
2. Find something valuable: What should you build? Great question! Here's the answer — something that's valuable to someone. Find a gap in the market and attack it. Did you notice there aren't any agencies using VR tech for restaurants? That's a gap! Get to work.
3. Look at everything through an R&D filter: ABM = Always Be Experimenting. You're probably not going to create something amazing on your first try. You'll have some failures. Use some of your agency income to experiment with new strategies and services. Some of them may pay off dividends in the future.
4. Have commitment: It took Mike 5 years for his food event to become popular. That's a long time! You must be willing to commit to something and nurture it in order to succeed.

Have you considered creating a podcast, but don't know where to start? Are you looking for a new way to get clients engaged without coming off "salesy"? Podcasts are a great way to connect with more prospective clients. As an added bonus, they are one of the easiest ways you can generate leads for your agency. 

In today's episode, we discuss:

• 3 Reasons why podcasts work to connect you with more clients. 
• Why your agency should consider a podcast.
• 3 Ways to make your voice shine through. 

Today, I sat down with Mark Lipsky, founder of The Radio Agency. The Radio Agency is a radio-only digital marketing agency. They focus on radio — nothing more, nothing less. Over the past 26 years, Mark has discovered what makes radio great and what makes it stand out from the rest. Mark shares with us what he learned and why you should consider incorporating podcasts into your marketing approach. 

3 Reasons Why Podcasts Work

You may think, "I don't need to start a podcast, my blog is doing just fine." And that may be the case. But podcasts open up new possibilities that may not currently exist for your agency. Podcasts are portable. Consumers can listen to your podcast whenever, wherever. But more importantly:

1. There's something for everyone: Unlike traditional radio, even those with weird obscure tastes will find something they like. Have a super niche agency? There's a good chance your client is looking for your podcast.
2. The ability to multitask: As humans, we rarely like to sit still anymore. With podcasts, you can listen to a show in the car, while you run, or while you're sitting at your desk at work. 
3. You don't have to schedule your time: Listeners aren't required to tune-in at a specific time. All they have to do is download past shows and binge them during free time. 

Why Your Agency Should Consider a Podcast

But isn't a podcast a lot of work? Not at all. There are so many apps where you can create one in just a few minutes on your own. Of course, there are options to make them more technical and expand your reach, but there's nothing complicated about creating a podcast. But why should you invest your time in a podcast?

1. They're easy. Seriously, it's so much easier than you think. If I can do it, anyone can :)
2. They're personable. Even the best writers have difficulty getting their true voice and intent to come through. With a podcast, listeners can hear tone, laughs, and inflections, increasing connection with the audience.
3. Audiences are paying attention. Look at your metrics. How often does someone read the entire blog post? Watch the entire video? Most often, listeners finish most, if not all of the podcast. Because they are so portable and so engaging. 

3 Ways to Make Your Voice Shine Through

Just like anything else, the goal is to stand out. With thousands of podcasts covering a variety of subjects, it's just as easy to be a "me too," podcast as it is a "me too," agency. Voice is what will make you stand out. How do you do this?

1. Be genuine. Don't try to create a character. Even if your listeners don't catch onto your act, you'll have a hard time sustaining the character long-term. 
2. Let your personality shine through. Be you. Don't hide your personality. Listeners love authenticity and want to hear what drives you.
3. Create content designed to help. Never create a podcast with the intent to sell something. Customers can see through this. Give your listeners something of value. If they like your message and enjoy listening to you, you won't have to try to sell — they'll want to work with you.

In marketing, it's important to embrace all forms of media. Podcasts are a great way to share your message, show your voice, and connect with your audience. 

Want Help Pitching and Winning More New Business?

Imagine a partner who helps you streamline Google Ads, Facebook, and Bing workflows, recommends genius optimizations across platforms, and then brags about the results to your clients for you. What if that partner could also help you grow your agency by making it easier to pitch and take on more clients? In a nutshell, that's what Wordstream will do for your agency.

And in support of the podcast, Wordstream is offering Smart Agency Masterclass listeners a FREE 14-day trial and complimentary sales-tool add-on. Just check out Wordstream.com/smartagency for more information.

Have you struggled with turnover post-pandemic? Looking for insights on adapting and fortifying your agency? What about outsourcing strategies that enable growth? The pandemic has had a profound impact on the IT industry, with one of its major consequences being the mass exodus of employees, resulting in the loss of experienced staff members who had been with companies for 15 to 20 years. This has posed a tremendous challenge for IT companies, compelling them to adapt and fortify their processes. Today’s guest is an Indian entrepreneur who managed to learn and adapt to these new challenges after previous experiences surviving failure and rising again in a new niche. Tune in to gain insights on scaling your agency and the benefits of outsourcing IT services.

Shamit Khemka is the founder of SynapseIndia, a premier IT outsourcing company. They are a Microsoft-certified gold partner that provides software development, custom web and mobile applications with 23+ years of experience. Their focus is open-source frameworks and ecommerce.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Surviving failure and turning it into opportunity.
• Choosing a niche and retaining top talent in a competitive industry.
• Keys to effective leadership at your digital agency.

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Sponsors and Resources

Agency Analytics: Tired of endless manual reporting in order to show your clients the value your agency delivers? It's time to check out AgencyAnalytics, the best automated client reporting solution for marketing agencies. Try it for FREE for 14 days when you head over to  AgencyAnalytics.com/Smart and sign up. It's time to see how life feels on the other side of manual reporting madness!

Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host: Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the co-founder of Rise25, an agency that helps companies launch and run podcasts profitably. He followed Jason’s podcast and eventually joined the mastermind and has been a guest on the podcast before. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and getting a new perspective to the show.

From Belly Up to Up and Running: Surviving Failure and Turning it into Opportunity

Starting over after failure can be a daunting and challenging task. It requires resilience, determination, and a willingness to learn from past mistakes. However, it can also be an opportunity for growth and success. Shamit’s current company is the result of starting over after his initial venture went belly up. Despite the failure, he saw an opportunity to try again with the computers and talented programmers he had left. This gave them the opportunity to explore new possibilities and start building websites and developing software.

Shamit's mindset at the time was crucial in his decision to bounce back. He was young and willing to take risks, which allowed him to see failure as a learning experience rather than a setback. He also had confidence in his technological skills, receiving continued inquiries even during the dot com downfall. This indicated there was still a demand for their services, and they could leverage their existing resources to meet that demand.

However determined, starting over required a strategic approach. In this sense, Shamit attributes his focus to what he learned during his participation in the MIT program, which provided him with valuable knowledge and insights that he could apply to his business. Of course, it was not easy, but it is possible. Rising from the ashes requires a positive mindset, a willingness to learn from past mistakes, and the ability to adapt and pivot.

Finding a New Niche in a Mobile App Development

At the time his first company went under, most people would’ve probably just gotten a job. Instead, Shamit decided to give entrepreneurship another try. His passion for technology played a significant role in his ability to persevere. He firmly believes in his ability to create and build a successful business using his technological skills.

This new endeavor started with an offering of simple website and hosting services. With time, they also started developing straightforward software, as well as developing interesting projects with US companies. Slowly but surely his agency started moving between different technology solutions, which led to working in mobile applications. First, an EO mobile application built by Shamit himself, followed by hiring a mobile application developer. To date, the mobile division has grown to a team of 35 people.

Advantages of Partnering with Indian Startups

Shamit links his ability to think creatively and find solutions where none existed to a unique problem-solving approach known as "Jugaad" in India. For him, Indians are born entrepreneurs in a culture Jugaad refers to finding innovative and unconventional solutions when traditional methods fall short.

Many people think of Indian labor as cheap labor and shy away from working with Indian companies. In reality, the Indian value proposition goes beyond affordability. Indian professionals have excellent English language skills, both spoken and written, which sets them apart from other countries and enables effective communication and collaboration with clients from around the world.

Indian companies are hugely successful in mobile development, thanks in part to the availability of talent. With a population of over a billion people, Shamit estimates India has at least a million great engineers. This immense talent pool allows Indian companies to scale their operations and take on large-scale projects.

Other than that, the biggest downside for their competitive stance versus other countries like Mexico is the time zone. For Shamit, this doesn’t necessarily make things more complicated, considering the overlap between Indian and East Coast times at one point of the day and West Coast at the end of the day. This is enough of a window to have efficient communication with customers, deliver on a project, and achieve their goals.

Retaining Top Talent in a Fast-Growing, Competitive Industry

Recruiting and retaining top talent is a critical aspect of any successful business, and it is especially challenging in the fast-growing mobile development industry in India.

Building a reputable brand and establishing trust with employees and clients is essential for attracting and retaining top talent. In his case, Shamit knew he needed to improve the agency’s hiring process, which they did after participating in a program at MIT that focused on top grading. This program introduced a more objective and process-oriented approach to recruitment, reducing subjectivity in the hiring process. Another positive influence in improving their process has been studying the best practices in the industry and other verticals.

However, when it comes to retention, Shamit admits it’s been a tricky and challenging aspect. The IT industry is still in turmoil post Covid and what worked in the past seems to have no effect now, which meant it was time to get creative. At his agency, they offer loyalty leaves and loyalty bonuses, providing employees with additional time off based on their years of service. They also incentivize employees to take paid holidays and provide incentives for significant life events such as anniversaries, birthdays, and the birth of a child. These initiatives have proven successful in retaining employees and creating a positive work environment.

They’ve also moved to using new tools like ChatGPT for copywriting and being overall less people-dependent.

Proactive Systems, Outsourced Non-Essentials & Other Keys to Effective Leadership

Shamit credits peers for leadership lessons that enabled growth. Chief among them - continuously evaluating processes, systems, and technology. Every 5 years as they expand, he reviews which processes must evolve. It was this proactivity that ensured a smooth remote transition during the pandemic.

He also delegates non-core tasks through outsourcing. Why let yourself get distracted on these tasks when focus fuels success? External partners handle catering and other tangential activities. This liberates resources to deliver mobile mastery.

And fun fosters engagement. Annual retreats including families strengthen bonds and morale. At work or play, Shamit's priority is a supportive culture. The whole person thrives when work has meaning and teammates feel like family.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program enables you to take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training

Land Big Clients

Want to know how you can land big clients and take your agency to the next level? In this episode I’m happy to welcome Del Ross. He was the Vice President of Sales & Marketing of InterContinental Hotels Group (IHG).

• Del gives his perspective on the do’s and don’ts to land big clients and tells us the #1 thing an agency needs to do to land the big accounts.
• We talk in length about what he looked for in picking an agency to work with and how to land a big account like IHG.
• More specifically, during our chat you’ll find out... As a big brand, what did you look for when choosing an agency?

Expertise and specialization in certain type of media or types of engagements. Del says he wanted agencies that could define what they were best at versus agencies that claimed they could do everything. He was never in the market for everything - he needed certain things at certain times.

How can you get your foot in the door of a major brand?

• Pitch the new and disruptive stuff that a brand might be thinking of, but hasn’t tackled yet.
• INSIDER SCOOP - IHG would invest $5,000 - $50,000 to see if it would work.

What should you not do?

Don’t say "I can do it better than the agency already in place because you have to be relatively unhappy."

The agency of record doesn’t matter anymore.

• Focus on being the go to partner.
• Yow want to be in the strategy and planning meetings.
• You need to be  in the "oh-no, what do we do now?" meetings.

Best process or pitch:

• Be an advisor rather than an order taker.
• Have a point of view or belief based on some data and proven results, that a certain activity X, leads to result Y. Then be able to engineer it for them.
• State, "Here is the way you need to do this, and if you do it this way, these are the results you will get."
• Help determine what a customer is worth.
• Help calculate the customer's lifetime value.

What do agencies do wrong?

• They focus more on how to spend the budget, rather than on the desired results.
• A lot of agencies make the conversation about how great they are instead of listening to the prospect.
• They sell what they want the client to want, not what the client needs.
• Most agencies fear metrics.
• Agencies typically just focus on the ROI but should also calculate the Customer Lifetime Value.
• They push their way in with, "Can we spend 20 minutes to see how we can help?"

How to position yourself for big brands to call you.

• Speak at a conference that provides value and a solution to possibly solving a problem they are having right now.
• Demonstrate your expertise and establish yourself as an authority.

And finally, #1 thing that an agency needs to do to get to the next level.

Have a point of view and back it up with data, research and tell your client what they need to do instead asking them what they want to do.

Discover the best Digital Agency Strategies today. Get Online Training to help you setup the right systems and strategies to help you grow faster.

Take Your Agency to the Next Level

So we have just covered how you can land big clients for your agency but what are the other business struggles you need to focus on for your agency? I have all you need to get through these obstacles.

No matter what you need advice on, I have more than likely covered it. From topics such as how a poor website design can affect your leads to how your agency can cope while you work through a recession. Or maybe you want to know the four phases of growth within your agency and want extra help in easing through agency growing pains? I have all the information you need to help you through it.

You can learn more about my life and business experience as well as lots of tips, tricks and insights by check out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

And if videos are more your thing, i’ve got you covered! Check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my Youtube channel. There you will find advice from myself and other agency experts.

Wish your agency had better account management? Want to learn how to increase client satisfaction and reduce churn-rate? It might be time to take an inward look in order to up your game and improve agency account management. When you and your team communicate more effectively with your clients, you will turn them into your biggest fans.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to build a deeper relationship with your clients.
• The most effective way to communicate with clients.
• Top 3 account management tactics.

Today, I talked with Karen Hayward a Fractional CMO at Chief Outsiders — the largest fractional CMO firm in the US. Karen works with CEOs and helps brands build growth strategies. She's an expert on account management, which is an area where we see a ton of growing agencies struggle. This episode contains crucial information that could be a real game-changer in your agency's client relations and retention.

How to Build a Deeper Relationship with Your Clients

Meaningful client relationships are churn's kryptonite. The faster (and better) you build a relationship with your clients, the less likely they are to jump-ship. After all, leaving a faceless brand is far easier than leaving an agency that you have nurtured a strong affiliation with. So, how do you build a deep-level relationship?

Karen says it's all about aligning your values and your client's values while leveraging your human assets. So, let the people in your agency get to know key members of your client's team. If you have a relationship that exists on multiple channels, you will suffer less when you hit those road-bumps. Make sure your team and your client's key employees (CEO, CFO, CMO, marketing director, etc.) build a relationship while agreeing on performance metrics.

We talked about relationships a ton when Joey Coleman, author of Never Lose a Client Again, was on the show. Bottom line, be certain you and your client have the same end-goal in mind as well as the same definition of success.

The Most Effective Way to Communicate With Clients

Figuring out how and when to communicate with clients is a huge headache for startup agencies (and lots of mature agencies as well). When are you bothering your clients? Some clients probably prefer not to communicate with you at all, right?

Karen suggests you communicate with your top clients quarterly. Even if everything is fine - and especially if everything is fine. Don't make communication about sales. Ask them for feedback and learn what your clients really want by asking them. Hear them out, reassure them, and take action before there are issues.

A great way to get off to a good start is to send new clients Net Promoter Score (NPS) surveys after the first 30 days! You can send them these surveys quarterly as well. You can take all of these Net Promoter Scores and see what kinds of trends your agency is having with your client. This gives you some great insight and also takes care of sheltered client concerns they may not be openly sharing with you.

Top 3 Account Management Tactics

Before she left, Karen left us with a few great tactics we can all try out.

• Start NPS immediately. Net Promoter Scores are amazing! They give you critical insight into your client-agency relationship status. Karen says you can get started right away with these if you take advantage of websites like Promoter.io and AskNicely, which both offer free NPSs in the U.S. with their free trials. Eat up the free trials and operationalize right away. If you aren't finding any value, at least you didn't spend anything!
• Make marketing pervasive in your agency. Karen suggests pushing marketing at every turn in your agency. Whether that's attaching marketing supplements to email signatures or even small details like business card design, subtle marketing can add great immediate value to your business and keep your clients interested.
• Engage in meaningful dialogue. Karen suggested making sure your team has a story to tell. In other words, the account team needs to study-up on their clients so they can engage in meaningful conversations. Karen uses a system she calls S.T.A.R. (Situation, Task, Action, Result). The key is for everyone to be prepared to interact deeper than surface-level.

Cashflow or Bookkeeping Issues?

FreshBooks is the solution with their ridiculously easy­-to-­use cloud accounting software for agencies.

Freshbooks helps you work smarter and become more organized. Most importantly, it gets you paid quicker. Check out FreshBooks.com/SmartAgency and enter SMARTAGENCY in the “How Did You Hear About Us?” section for a FREE 30-day, unrestricted trial.

Are you struggling to connect the dots between agency services and the results you drive for clients? Do you produce leads for clients without being sure if they're following up? What about your own marketing efforts? Do you have a process in place for outreach and follow-up? Throwing money at marketing initiatives without correctly measuring their performance can leave agencies with unanswered questions and uncertainty. An effective CRM is the answer; which is why today's guest has specialized in helping agencies enhance their sales process with the right tools. In this interview, he talks about some common mistakes agencies make with follow-up and processes and how they can improve.

Jason Kramer is the founder of Cultivize, a marketing technology company that helps B2B businesses and digital agencies streamline their sales and marketing process and retain more clients. He’s one of the world's few certified strategists and implementers for the SharpSpring platform.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• What to look for in a good CRM platform.
• Why agencies should insist clients use a CRM.
• How to improve your agency sales follow-up process.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host: Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the co-founder of Rise25, an agency that helps companies launch and run podcasts profitably. He followed Jason’s podcast and eventually joined the mastermind and has been a guest on the podcast before. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and getting a new perspective to the show.

Changing Your Niche to Adapt to the Market

Back in 2001, Jason Kramer was working at an agency in New York with big clients like Virgin Atlantic Airways. After 9/11, the agency went from 60+ people to 14 people very quickly. At the time, he was already doing some freelance work on the side so his choices seemed clear. He could either go work for another big agency or he could start his own business. That decision led to starting his first agency, focused on web development services.

After a while, it became harder to sustain his business with the emergence of new tools that made website design more accessible. He eventually sold that agency.

In his new agency, Jason and his team help B2B businesses and agencies streamline their sales and marketing process and are top Sharpspring integrators.

Technology alone doesn’t solve problems, so Jason's secret sauce is leveraging his experience in order to identify pain points in his clients' processes. Next, they pair clients up with the right technology to meet their goals. The challenge is having the right team to adopt the technology. It’s a lot of moving parts and Jason’s key to success is his team’s hands-on approach. They’re involved from the very beginning and have a deep understanding of how to customize technology to reach clients' goals.

What to Look for in a Good CRM Platform

When they first start working with Cutlivize, many clients don't have CRM technology in place.  So the first step is to analyze whether or not a SharpSpring is a good fit. Their criteria for a good CRM include intuitive adoption for new users, affordability, and fully inclusive of add-on capabilities.

Most of their clientele doesn't have a CRM and is starting from scratch with SharpSpring. About 30% of their clients transition from another CRM platform to SharpSpring with their help. However, that 30% usually needs some convincing to consider the idea of migrating to a new system.

When clients are using another platform, they’ve usually stuck to that technology simply because they’ve been using it for a long time. Some clients are using dated systems and worry they won’t be able to export their data. Another big concern is training the client team on a new CRM.

In those cases, Jason asks to see how the company uses this technology on a daily basis. The majority of clients discover they’re not actually using the technology as much as they thought. Whatever the concerns, the most important element to ensure a successful migration will be that the sales team is a part of that conversation.

Why Agencies Should Insist Clients Use a CRM

The Cultivate team has worked with over 30 agencies helping their clients get more out of a CRM for their clients. Jason says those agencies are leaving money on the table because any agency is only half the equation. They’re normally getting leads into the organization. However, it’s up to the client to actually talk to those clients, close the deal, and report the results of those leads. You can effectively track your results for clients if they aren't tracking things on their end as well.

According to Jason, agencies that don’t offer a CRM platform service struggle because the clients don’t follow through on those leads. This ultimately affects the results clients see and they will continue to shift agencies. In reality, the problem is the client doesn’t have a system in place to track everything.

For these cases, Jason’s team offer to help with strategic planning and integrating the CRM so they can have transparency to show what’s actually working.

Additionally, based on their model, it can work as an additional passive revenue stream for the agency. The agency offers value to the client and gets an additional revenue stream for something their team doesn’t even have to touch.

How to Create an Effective Agency Sales Follow-Up Process

Typically, when Jason’s team comes in to assess a company they find there’s some sort of follow-up process. However, it tends to be inconsistent. Most have no rhyme or reason for their outreach efforts. On the other hand, there are some who are too aggressive with their outreach. They make multiple attempts every week, making phone calls and sending emails, which quickly turns people off.

Generally speaking, follow-up should be done in a way that is ethical but also friendly and not overbearing. Additionally, these interactions should be tracked. If you sent 50 quotes, how many of those are likely to close? Which ones do you still need to follow up with? At the end of the day, you want to sell, not be stuck with mundane emails forever. That’s why a follow-up process is so important. Prepare templates to ensure you’re sending emails that provide value and a reason for reaching out. This empowers the sales team and makes their outreach more effective.

What Can You Do to Improve?

1. Understand their goals. The best way to help your client make a decision is to understand them and their business. It can take a few months to get a client going and excited to work with you. If that client usually has a very busy summer season, for instance, explain that your process can take up to three months to get ramped up. Therefore, it's important to get started three months or more before that busy summer season.
2. Providing value and education. Instead of sending back-to-back messages asking when they’re going to make a decision, you can explain a little bit about your process, how it’s done, and why you’ll need a certain amount of time to do it. Educating the client and providing information is helpful without being pushy.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program enables you to take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Can you effectively communicate what your business is about? With a 30-year background in marketing, Chris West noticed businesses normally handled their visual identity very well but need help when it comes to using their language. He started his agency, Verbal Identity, and has helped clients create a distinctive and impactful tone of voice for their brand. He is a big believer in the power of language and in this interview, Chris discusses the three levels of communication he teaches his clients, why humanity wins over corporate in social media, and his new book.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. 3 levels of communication. As a digital agency, you need to differentiate yourself from your competition. When looking at how the world’s biggest brands communicate, Chris identifies three levels of communication. At the 10,000 feet level, we have a vision of the world you want to create. What do you stand for? And even more powerful, what do you stand against? At 1,000 feet, we have the personality, which is a very important piece because customers buy into the personality of a business. Finally, at ground level, it's all about the details, especially when it comes to the language. Establish the language your business will use and identify with and communicate it to your team.
2. Humanity wins. Even when it comes to some of the world’s biggest brands, like Microsoft, people would rather follow Bill Gates on social media than his company. That is because they want to follow a person, someone they can relate to. It’s important to be more than a corporate blank face that only speaks in business terminology and communicates merely in announcements. Dare to get personal, to share your likes and dislikes and you will attract like-minded individuals. And, perhaps more important, identify the ones that will reject you and cannot relate to you.
3. Writing advice. When it comes to writing, some of the best advice Chris has ever gotten is “write like they’re walking away”. Be very intentional about your message and try not to rely on context and details to get your point across. Write like you don’t have time to warm up your reader because you’re already losing their interest.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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These 3 Levels of Communication Will Help You Differentiate Your Brand From The Rest

{These transcripts have been auto-generated. While largely accurate, they may contain some errors.}

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk and I have another amazing show for you and guest. We're gonna talk about the three levels of communication or language that you can actually check out in order to position your agency to be the choice. So let's go ahead and jump into the show.

Hey, Chris. Welcome to the show.

Chris: [00:00:25] Hey, Jason, how you doing?

Jason: [00:00:27] Hey, tell us who you are and what do you do?

Chris: [00:00:29] Certainly. I run a business called Verbal Identity and it came about because I have a 30-year background in marketing. And what I noticed was a lot of clients, business owners were really sweating their visual identity, but they were forgetting about their language.

So really what we do is we help businesses use language better.

Jason: [00:00:48] Awesome. Well, in pre-show we were talking about kind of the three different levels that you need to kind of really kind of position your agency. So let's kind of jump into it and talk about it.

Chris: [00:00:59] Yeah, thank you very much. So I think the thing that really kills and bogs down agency growth is how are you different from every other agency?

So you’re a digital agency, so are a hundred other digital agencies. So how on earth can you stand out and be differentiated? And I think that when we look at how the best brands in the world and the best businesses in the world communicate, whether it's a small, you know, super fast grain startup, whether it's a big brand, like we've worked with like an Alphabet over in Silicon Valley, their communication really works on three levels.

So if you're like at 10,000 feet, they're very clear and consistent always in their narrative. This is the world we believe in. So this is what we're going to stand for. And even better, this is what we're going to stand against.

So if you're a digital agency owner, you can't just be a digital agency owner. You can't just believe that the world needs kind of better digital, whatever, whatever, you know, everyone's saying that, right? You got to say that we do it fast. We do it better. We understand our clients better, or we, you know, what is the truth about you, about the world that you were trying to create when you set up this agency? What was it…?

How precise and personal can you be about, and when you find that, what is it you stand for and what is it you're going to start against? Cause we see people, elected president selected being very clear on what they stand against. And really you're fighting for election when clients are looking for which agency to take on.

So that's like in the 10,000 feet. Now, of course, you've also got to find the personality, my belief, and, you know, working with agencies here in the UK, is that what we find is clients buy people and then they buy the agency that those people represent. So what they buy into is the personality. And what you want to do is make sure that there's a thousand feet, there's a personality which is true to you, which kind of expresses this worldview. Are you as an agency, quite confrontational? Do you think the world is stupid and everything has changed or are you as a bunch of people actually much softer, more considered, more insightful, maybe more intellectual?

Whatever it is, if you can take your worldview and then represent that in your personality, then you really strongly differentiated. And of course the other thing that bogs us all down as agency owners, business owners is we're trying to do everything and we want to move faster and I've got six people writing content for me. I want all events sound the same and I want them all to sound like us.

So down at the ground level, there are some ground-level details and people often overlook this, but are the words and phrases we use and the words and phrases we don't use to describe ourselves? From the consumer world we had a wonderful client, Fred Perry, Fred Perry Clothing, the CEO kept on saying we don't use the word store. When we're writing our content because we're British and stories and Americanism, we have to use shop, right?

When you put that in the guidelines, he saved his frustration in these weekly content review meetings, just because these are the words and phrases we use and don't use. Also some things around grammar so a couple of other things. And then once you've got all those aligned, you're differentiated and you've got your team pointing in the right direction.

Jason: [00:04:08] I love it. What are some other areas where you see people going wrong with positioning, you know, their agency?

Chris: [00:04:17] I think agency owners are usually hyper-intelligent people and hyper passionate, hyper purposeful driven people. And actually they want to get all of that across in the first communication. So, you know, but I don't have time for it, Jason. I don't know how much time you've got for it. I mean, you know, I see 20 people writing to me each day, say, hey, Chris, we can do this we can do that, right? You know, I, my phone is going, WhatsApp is going three more emails have come in just as I've been thinking about what I should do about the other emails.

And actually, can you say something simple, just enough to open the door? More to the point, if you dare to do this, can you say something that 99% of the vault of the world will reject? Cause we don't want the whole world. What you want is the 1% of the clients that really get you. So what is it that you're going to say that 99% will reject?

That's one of the biggest tips. Be prepared to lose the people that are just going to waste your time in meetings anyway, and never love you. Focus on the ones, you know, the thing that will appeal to the 1% and then keep it simple. Keep it short. Unlike me, who tends to talk for too long.

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I love that you talk about talking about what you stand against or stand with. You know, I think that's very important when you're positioning your agency, because I find too many times agency owners try to appeal to everyone and they're going to appeal to a lot less rather than saying, hey, you know…

Like what we do with our agency mastermind, we're saying, hey, if you're an asshole, right? Or if you're all about yourself, do not apply. There's other places that you can go for that. And like, that's our stance. Or if you're not about sharing or, you know, helping other people out or being transparent, you know, hey, it's probably not right for you. And then that's our stance. And that's enabled us in order to really create an amazing place, you know, in the same thing at the agency, like we used to say the same thing about our clients.

Like if you think, you know it all, we can’t help you.

Chris: [00:07:28] Yeah, definitely got to help me. And I think, can I add something to this? Cause this is exactly what I believe as well. I mean, there are places for ourselves, right? But here's the thing I, I see that works really well when people are using language: humanity wins. So, if you look at the number of followers, I think Apple has on LinkedIn is… I don't know how many million it is, but Tim, who runs Apple, has twice as many followers.

If you look at how many followers Microsoft has is however many millions, right? But can you believe Bill Gates? I suddenly forgot his name, but Bill Gates has two and a half times as many followers. Why? Because humanity wins. People want humans to talk like humans to a human. Soon as we slip into the corporate stuff, people switch off.

Jason: [00:08:13] Exactly. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's what I love about social media. It gives you an idea of what's every day in the life of Bill Gates or, you know, Tim Cook or whoever, you know, rather than, you know… I always hate when people just share out or communicate just business and brand stuff. I'm like…

Chris: [00:08:34] Oh, and there's nothing. There's nothing. So what I'm for you for going to work this morning? Sometimes, I mean, that sincerely what happened going to work, but right… We're delighted. We've appeared at this. Yeah. Good for you. Nothing for me in that, right? But tell me how you have to fix the wheel on your car on your way there and you turned up and your pants were soggy because of the rain and you had to borrow some pants… Right, now I've got you. Rather than now, you've got me, I'm walking up onto the stage with you and man, I want you to succeed.

The human stuff wins.

Jason: [00:09:04] Yeah. And you know, I, my team fought me for a long time on this, you know, on social. I was like, hey, look, we live in the mountains. I want to share my life in the mountains on social. And it's been amazing where it's attracted people that have the same interest as well.

And then it's so much more enjoyable that we've attracted people that believe in the same things.

Chris: [00:09:29] And that's your differentiation. So 99% of the world might look at that and go, why do I want to talk to some guy that's stuck in the mountains? My life is four story, high glass fronted, lobbies and stretch love, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

1% are going to go. I found the man, right? He gets what it is. It's not all about that. So immediately you're streets ahead of the competition. And also, yeah, so you say, when you open up personally on social media, you really big, right? So don't want to phone this guy. He sounds like a corporate blank face. Or do I want to find this guy? Because he's honest, like you had, excuse me, crap day cause he missed all his night's sleep because his kids were up or whatever it was. Okay. That's like, that was me yesterday as well. So I can talk to this guy like an honest person.

Jason: [00:10:16] Yeah, I love it. Well, this has all been amazing, Chris, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Chris: [00:10:23] Ah, writers tips, maybe, you know, sometimes people say Chris, you know, you're an award-winning writer. They never say that. I always try and get them to say that, but they never say you're an award-winning writer. They say, Chris, you know, you're a writer and you're in the room. So let me ask you a question. Best writers tip ever?

So I would say right like that already walking away. It was this piece of advice I heard three years ago and it's like, that's great, right? And you don't have time to warm up the reader. You don't have time to explain the context or anything else. They are already walking away. So what is it you want to say? Get it upfront and start back.

So for me, it's a, it's a lovely piece of advice walk, write like they're already walking away because they are.

Jason: [00:11:06] I really liked that. And I'm probably the person always walking away because my attention span is about this big, a lot, like everyone else. So, you know, get to the point really pretty quick. Tell us a little bit about the book and where people can check it out.

Chris: [00:11:21] Do you mean this book? Thank you very much. Yeah. So. I've been running this business for 10 years. Love language, love what it can do. I think it's a sneaky, amazing thing, language. Uh, people said, Chris, can you put it, can you stop talking to me and just write a book so I can read the book and stop listening to you?

So the book came out in September. I'm delighted to say it hit number one in its category on Amazon straight away. And really it talks about this framework that everyone can use this simple framework, 10,000 feet worldview, thousand feet personally, ground-level details, how you make sure they will reinforce each other.

And then there's a little bit about how do you build ROI because we all, we all need to worry about, there's 20 things I could do right now to help my agency, is it going to be ROI for this? Is this the most important? And then it talks a little bit about quick wins and a few other writers' tips in there as well.

Jason: [00:12:14] Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Chris, for coming on the show. If you guys enjoyed this episode and you would like to know the strategies that are currently working and literally have access to them every month, if that sounds of interest to you, I'd love for you guys to check out the digital agency elite.

This is where we have members and guests come in once a month to really go over strategies that they're crushing it on as well as be surrounded by amazing agency owners.

So go to digitalagencyelite.com. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Forbes has called Nancy A. Shenker a “bad girl” because she selectively breaks rules and takes calculated risks to help companies innovate and grow. Nancy had worked as a CMO for big brands like MasterCard and Citibank when she ventured to start her own business, TheONswitch. That was more than 18 years ago and she credits her client side work for providing the insight needed when she first started. Those experiences are what contributed to her still being in the agency world today. In her conversation with Jason, they talked about how staying in business through the years has meant adapting to different challenges. They also touched on some of the lessons learned in more than 18 years of owning her business, and why people shouldn't underestimate experience and the wisdom that can come from it.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. On adapting to changes. Nancy actually credits the hard times of the 2008 recession for preparing her for the pandemic. “When the economy takes a downturn, you're sort of stuck throwing all of this stuff overboard,” she recalls. When it came time for everyone to welcome the new digital and minimalistic model, she had already adapted to it years ago. “I've been co-working and managing a virtual team for the last decade, so I was good.” In her opinion, the pivoters were the ones surviving and thriving. It was a time to do market research, to find out how customers were behaving, but many went into a state of inertia.
2. Lessons learned over the years. After 18 years in the business, lesson number one for Nancy has been to always trust her gut. She doesn’t have a lot of regrets, but she always regrets moving forward with projects where she felt like something didn’t seem quite right. Another important lesson is to always watch your P&L. Hope is great but money in the bank is better. Always make sure to have that cushion because you never know when things can go south. Also, remember that a good profit margin for your business should be an average of 30%. And finally, invest in things that will bring you long-term value.
3. Don’t underestimate experience. Nancy is very passionate about calling out ageism in business. “I now bring to the table wisdom that I didn't have even 18 years ago,” she says. She calls for people not to assume that an older person cannot understand technology. She even challenges anyone a social media strategy contest, since she’s been in the social media and digital media realm since the late nineties and feels that, at 65, she can offer a unique perspective.

Sponsors and Resources

Gusto: Today's episode is sponsored by Gusto, an all-in-one people platform for payroll, benefits, HR where you can unify your data. Gusto automatically applies your payroll taxes and directly deposits your team's paychecks, freeing you up to work on your business. Head over to gusto.com/agency to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Lessons Learned After 18 Years in the Business & Why We Shouldn't Underestimate Experience

Jason: [00:00:00] All right. What's up, agency owners? Today I have an amazing guest who has been in business for over 18 years. Actually, today is their 18th birthday. We're going to talk about the lessons learned about growing their agency. And let's go ahead and jump into the show.

Hey, Nancy. Welcome to the show and happy birthday to the business.

Nancy: [00:00:25] Thank you. How are you doing?

Jason: [00:00:28] So, uh, tell us who you are and what do you do?

Nancy: [00:00:32] Sure. My name is Nancy A. Shenker. And as you just said, today is the 18th birthday, so it's fortuitous timing, um, of my consulting company slash agency called TheOnswitch.

Um, I was an early-stage entrepreneur. I left corporate life and started my own business long before it became popular to do that. Um, and previously I was a CMO at a company called Reed Exhibitions, the producers of Comicon. And then before that I was at MasterCard and Citibank. So the first part of my career was on the client-side. So when I got ready to start my own consultancy, I sort of knew what things look like from the other side of the desk, which gave me tremendous insight and probably contributed to my still being around 18 years later.

Jason: [00:01:26] Yeah. What were… Going back to when you were the CMO and working with a lot of different agencies over the years, what were some things that really pissed you off?

Nancy: [00:01:39] Um, I think that, um, account people who had never really worked in or on the business, um… Always seemed sort of whimsical to me. Like if you couldn't tell me specifically what was going on with a project or why I should be spending my money on direct rather than conventional print… Then you were really just like a host or a hostess.

So that was like number one, that stuck in my craw that I didn't really need somebody to take me out to lunch or invite me to parties. I needed a person who was going to give me creative ideas to grow the business.

Jason: [00:02:22] A strategist.

Nancy: [00:02:22] Um, yeah. Yeah. The other thing, um, was, um, paying for people who weren't actually working on my account and the recession was a tipping point for me when I really had to take a long, long, hard look at my overhead as a business and to say, whoa, whoa, like my clients are paying for my equipment. They're paying for my toilet paper. They're paying for, you know, all of this stuff.

And when the economy takes a downturn, you're sort of stuck throwing all of this stuff overboard that you just bought in the previous 10 years. So I was actually really in great shape to handle the pandemic. Because I went with this minimalistic virtual model back in 2008, which suddenly became popular in 2020.

And I'm like, whoa, I've been doing this for 10-15 years. I'm all good. I don't have any stuff to throw overboard at this point. I'd been co-working for the last decade. I have been managing a virtual team for the last decade. So I was, I was good. I mean, no one was really good in the pandemic, but I was better than most.

Jason: [00:03:47] Yeah. I saw a lot of agencies growing actually in the pandemic, just because, you know, there were so many businesses that… Traditional, their traditional way of getting business they couldn't get anymore. And they really needed, you know, that digital, um, expertise in order to reach their customers and really kind of make, get, get them through because you know, the, the loans of the government only goes so far.

Nancy: [00:04:15] Yeah. I mean, I would say probably, you know, 20% of clients said... Oh my goodness, the world is changing. Human behavior is changing and my customer's changing and I'm going to get first-mover advantage by dealing with that. And then there was a whole other swath of the population that went into this like inertia state.

So the nimble, the strong, the… I hate the word pivot, but the pivoters are surviving and thriving. And those people who sort of… pause. I mean, I just saw this statistic that was shocking that two-thirds of companies, you're talking about major companies, postponed or canceled market research during the pandemic.

And I would argue that that was the time to really be all over how are my customers behaving? What are they buying? What are they clicking on? How are they shopping? Because if you understood that, like, if you really understood, basic human behavior, which shifted largely to digital... Um, you were way ahead of the game if you were on top of that.

Which is what taught us this lesson that, you know, I've learned starting in, when I first started my career in the 1970s. You know, our tagline as a business is bright and timeless marketing. I've seen media change radically. Um, but, um… What has stayed the same is your understanding of basic human behavior.

Um, that's timeless, whether it's B2B or B2C, if you really are inside the head and heart and wallet of your customer, you'll never be wrong.

Jason: [00:06:08] Yeah. What were, what were some of the things that you've learned over the years of running your business?

Nancy: [00:06:15] Um, well, my lesson number one for today, I'm doing a series of nine lessons learned over 18 years. And lesson number one, which is live on my LinkedIn profile today is trust your gut.

You know, and I think that it's very easy when you're a business owner to be swayed by clients, by your team members… But at the end of the day, you know, if you're a successful business owner, your intuition is usually pretty good. So if you have the heebie-jeebies, as I say, about a client or about a prospective employee or a current team member. You know, the chances are probably better than even that your gut is right.

So, um, you know, the biggest mistakes I've made or learning moments I've had in the last 18 years have been when something didn't feel right to me and I moved forward with it anyway.

Jason: [00:07:14] Yeah, exactly. Cool. And what are, what are some of the other nine? Obviously we, we don't have time to go over all nine.

Um, and I'm not gonna put you on the spot for that, but look, give us a hint for some other ones.

Nancy: [00:07:26] Um, always watch your P&L. You know, especially if you're a creative, um, and a storyteller, it's pretty easy to delude yourself and say, well, things will turn around tomorrow. Or, you know, I'm, I'm spending $10,000 on this because I think it's a good, calculated risk.

But, you know, that's one of the big lessons I learned from the recession is that, um… Hope is great, but money in the bank is better. Like always have that cushion. Also because you never know when things could go south and you don't want to be too leveraged when that happens. So, you know, as I like to say, especially for women, business owners, PNL does not stand for purses and lipstick.

Um, when you're in a service business and your biggest expense is people, um, you really have to spend very, very wisely.

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Yeah, I always, when I work with agencies, I'm always surprised about how low their profit margins are. And they think in the agency business that 10% is good or 15%. I'm like the average is over 30%. And then they kind of get shocked a little bit and I'm like, that's the average. I was like, you can go over. And they're like, but when you get bigger, it goes down.

I'm like, no, it doesn't. Only if you're, if you get dumber.

Nancy: [00:10:02] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, um, you know, when I first started my business, I think I was more into the creator comforts. Um, you know, I'd mentioned to you that I just moved to Arizona about three, four years ago. And I was kind of shocked at how many agencies have big spaces and their names on the door and big staffs.

A lot of them did have to do some serious bloodletting when the pandemic started, you know. And you're right, there are some who didn't miss a beat and whose clients really needed them. And there are others that just could not sustain their expense base when things took a turn for the worse. So I'm a, I'm a minimalist both personally and professionally these days.

Jason: [00:10:52] Yeah. I, I would always invest in anything that would be for the long-term that they would generate. And then personally, I would only invest in things, um, that were related to experiences. I would never buy a $50,000 watch, but I would buy a $50,000 experience.

Nancy: [00:11:14] Oh yeah. I mean, you're talking to a woman who spent an insane amount of money on a 12th-row seats to see the rolling stones when they came through, um, a few years ago, pre-pandemic. And I will never, ever regret that expense.

So, yeah. Memories, travel, experiences… And talent, you know, if you find people… I'm working with a couple of women now who I've known for years who are worth every penny, I pay them and then some. Because they are helping me scale the business and deliver great quality work and enabling me to sleep better at night, which at this stage of my life is super important.

Jason: [00:11:58] Yeah, exactly. Uh, give us two other tips that you've learned over the years.

Nancy: [00:12:04] Um, build a really… Another people tab is build a really strong inner circle. And that inner circle can change or evolve over time, but you really have to have people in your life who will tell you the truth, who aren’t just bobbleheads.

Um, operations is really key. You know, you could be doing the best creative in the world, but if stuff isn't happening on time and on budget, you're screwed. Um, and then, you know, this isn't one of my nine tips, but it's my, you know, one mini regret, in terms of how I started and scaled the business… I think having product, having tangible product is super important. Because being exclusively in a service business, no matter how much you productize your service, it's still a service.

So, I mean, I'm not done yet. I have another 18 years at least ahead of me. And I have a few product concepts that I hope to launch over the next five to 10 years. Including, you know, I, I'm a writer and I have a bunch of books on Amazon and I have, um, some courses I’m developing. So yeah, I'm really into passive revenue these days.

Jason: [00:13:24] Well, let me, let me tell you, the grass is not always greener on the other side. It's greener on the side you water. When I sold my agency, I thought just like you, I was like, ah, I've been in the service business for 12 years. Let me go develop a product. And I developed an iPhone app and I hated it. I literally wanted to… I put a gun to it and just blew it up behind the shed. And…

Nancy: [00:13:46] Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I haven't launched my… I have one product idea that's actually a physical, tangible product, a household product. And when I started delving into manufacturing and trademarking and distribution, I'm like, nah, I'm not, I'm not doing that.

So I think that there is an opportunity and I think you've actually done it really well. You know, and I'm not just being, you know, a sycophant here. But like developing products that people in your industry truly need, you know, it's productizing your service, which is also a form of a product. I think smart, digital marketers are doing more and more of that these days.

So kudos to you on that.

Jason: [00:14:32] Thank you. Well, uh, is there anything Nancy, I did not ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Nancy: [00:14:39] Um, yeah, I mean, something that I think a lot about these days is, I turned 65 last February. Um, I have been very often told that I don't look 65, but what I say is this is the new 65. I would like to see the agency world and the marketing world become more age diverse.

Um, it's something that I'm passionate about and you know, I now bring to the table wisdom that I didn't have even 18 years ago. So when you see that person who's old enough to be your mother or your grandmother, don't assume that they don't understand technology. Because I challenge any millennial to a social media strategy contest because I've been in the social media and digital media realm since the late nineties, early two thousands.

I helped build the first website for MasterCard. I was on Twitter day one of the Twitter launch. And it’s funny cause I recently said to one of our associates I've been using social media since 2005. And she said, oh my God, I was only six years old then. So yeah, don't assume that because somebody is older doesn't mean that they can't understand new tricks.

So that's my final bit of anti-ageism bad-ass wisdom.

Jason: [00:16:15] Awesome. And what's the URL. People can go and check the business out?

Nancy: [00:16:20] theonswitch.com, T H E O N S W I T C H.com just like a light switch, but not. Um, my daughter actually helped me name the company and, um, feel free to follow me on LinkedIn because I'm, as I said, I'm a storyteller and that's where a lot of my content goes.

Jason: [00:16:39] Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Nancy, for coming on the show. And if you guys want to really be around an amazing inner circle, kind of like Nancy mentioned, where they're all digital agency owners and we're all wanting to grow and scale up faster. I'd love to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com.

Go and check that out and apply. And if we think it's right for you and vice versa, we'll have a conversation. So go to digitalagencyelite.com. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Having your own agency and the responsibility for people’s livelihoods can be an isolating experience. Darren Fox says he fell into the agency world unexpectedly. After a while of offering freelance web design services, it became clear he could not continue solopreneur. So, Darren founded Idea Marketing Group. and started building a team. Even though he loves building relationships with his team, as the agency grew, he had to separate himself to maintain his leadership role. “You definitely feel like you’re on an island,” Darren says. In this episode, Darren is candid about the loneliness of agency ownership. He also talks about ways to overcome isolation in order to grow a successful agency.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. It can be very isolating. Something that is not discussed much but agency owners should be prepared for is just how isolating it can be at the top. As your agency grows, so will your team. You may find that, as the leader, it’s better for you to put some distance to maintain respect and avoid favoritism. You can’t be everyone’s best friend because you may be in the position of firing them at some point. It’s difficult and it will leave you excluded from fun lunch outings with everyone, but Darren agrees it’s for the best.
2. Turn to people that can relate. Darren and many other mastermind members have agreed that one of the best remedies for the loneliness of agency ownership is sharing in a group of people who relate and offer advice. As an agency owner, you can feel burdened with the pressure of being responsible for people’s livelihoods and the future of your business, which you can’t really discuss with your team. However, other agency owners will understand those concerns and offer new perspectives.
3. Find the right pace. We’re all impatient about the success we want to see for our company. We want to scale fast and take on every project we can get. But, that kind of thinking can lead to burnout for you and your team. You don’t have to take on every client. Learning to say no is an important part of the process. Our guest recommends talking with your team to be sure that they can handle the workload. Set expectations for each project and be realistic about deadlines. After all, you’re counting on them and they have to know that you've got their back.

Sponsors and Resources

Ninja Cat: Today's episode is sponsored by Ninja Cat, a digital marketing performance management platform where you can unify your data, create beautiful, insightful reports and presentations that will help you grow your business. Head over to ninjacat.io/masterclass to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Learn to Deal With the Isolation of Agency Life and Find the Right Pace to Grow

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, everybody? Jason Swenk here. And I have an amazing guest coming on the masterclass to talk about the doom and gloom of owning an agency. The things that not many people really talk about that you need to be aware of and to make sure that, you know, look, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. So we're definitely going to have a lot of fun.

Um, but let's go ahead and jump into it.

Alright, Darren. What's going on, man?

Darren: [00:00:33] Hey, thanks for having me. It's awesome to be here.

Jason: [00:00:36] Yeah, man. I'm excited to have you on. I was, I had Drew on last week and he was one of the other ones on top of the mountain with us. That was in the intro. So you're the second guest on the intro. Tell us, uh, before we jump in and talk about, you know, all this amazing stuff that we wish we knew about, tell us who you are and what you do?

Darren: [00:00:58] Sure. So, uh, Darren Fox, president and founder of Idea Marketing Group. Uh, we're a full-service agency that is known for custom web development.

So that's been our core focus and we work with all types of industries, but we've really been, you know, narrowing that down to food and beverage within the last year or so.

Jason: [00:01:19] Awesome. Well, I'm excited to have you on, so let's, um, let's go ahead and jump into it. Let's talk about what are some of the things that you didn't expect, you know, creating an agency. Because a lot of times we come in and we think, you know, creating an agency there's low barrier to entry and we're going to have all this freedom, uh, you know, to do whatever we want and have all this money.

So let's, let's talk about what did you not expect?

Darren: [00:01:45] Oh, yeah. So, I mean, I guess a lot of it is time initially of like how much time it really takes. Everybody thinks that, you know, because you have your own business, that you're just going to be, you know, going out, doing whatever you want, getting the work done.

And I feel like when I first started, I was probably working almost double the hours that I was previously for like a fraction of the price. Probably like my first job, like pushing shopping carts at a retail store is essentially what I was making, but working so much harder and longer.

And, you know, I kind of fell into the agency role unexpected. I was really just going to kind of do it as like this freelance thing and do it on the side. And it all just kind of happened. Then, you know, it started to snowball and I was getting bigger and I was like, I can't do this by myself. I need to start hiring. And, you know, just learning about the challenges of hiring and trying to bring on the right people.

And I think, you know, I obviously learned some mistakes early on that the best thing to do is, you know, spend that money and hire the best talent that you can early on. Um, so that was probably like one of the biggest mistakes out of the gate is I was just trying to hire like what I could kind of afford. And just learning early on that, you know, that's not the right type of mentality that you need to have to make the agency successful.

Jason: [00:03:14] Yeah. I, um, I see a lot of times, and I even did this as well. Like in the very beginning when you're hiring someone, you're hiring them to do something that you don't know how to do. That you're really trying to sell them on working with you versus the opposite. And I look at it now looking back and I think you do too of going, if I could go back again, I would actually hire someone to do something that I already know how to do really well.

So then I know how to manage them and they're actually doing the things that I don't need to be doing anymore. So I can go on to the next.

Darren: [00:03:51] Right. Yeah, because I mean, every agency owner should constantly challenge themselves to, you know, do professional development and just keep growing. Because as soon as you stop, you die. Like, yeah, this is just kind of the nature of the beast, especially in this industry with how fast everything changes.

Jason: [00:04:10] Yeah. What about like, when things go wrong? Like, what's your, what's your thoughts of, uh… You know, can you go to your team? Can you go to your employees? Like, I mean, it's pretty, I remember it was pretty isolating.

Darren: [00:04:25] Yeah. Yeah. You definitely feel like you're on an island. Like, you know, you want to share these things with people. But at the same time, they're putting their trust and faith in you as a leader.

And you don't want to jeopardize that either, because then they start to question what you're doing. So, yeah, it's an extremely lonely position to be in. And it's tough too, because I'm the type of person like I like to develop like really solid relationships with my staff. And then there's also that fine line too, of like, well, you still have to be the boss.

You can't be somebody's best friend because you may be put in that position to where you'd have to fire them. And I've had to do that and, you know, it's, it's a hard position to be in. So I think just kind of knowing that fine line of like, wanting to bring on people that fit from a culture standpoint, because they share the same values as you do. But you also have to kind of, you know, keep that line in between of not becoming friends.

I mean, you can be, but it's like, it's a different type of friendship.

Jason: [00:05:32] Yeah. How have you gotten around that? Because, you know, I've, I've struggled with that in the past. And even on this go around, you know, it's, it's really, it might, like with Stacy and her team, like they're, they're like family now. Um, and I know what you're saying about like, you know, if you get to a point where you have to fire someone because they're not doing something, it makes it that much harder.

But I guess elaborate a little bit more about, because most people don't realize this and it does get very, very difficult.

Darren: [00:06:11] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you say family, you look at it and the people that you work with are probably the people that you see more often than your actual family. So in essence, they are your family because, yeah, you're around them so much.

And, you also, like, as you've grown, you add staff, I remember, or a smaller, we would do everything. It was like a, a tight little group too. We would do like launch outings and everything. But then as you get bigger yeah, it's like, oh, we can't really just bring everybody out to lunch or we can't do this.

And then you have to start to be selective of like, well, if I go out to lunch with this person, is it going to piss off the other person? And people start to see that you're playing like favoritism. Um, so that's also hard too. So, you know, a lot of times like the team would go out on lunch outings and I'd be like, yeah, I'm going to sit this one out because you guys will be able to bond more without me there and present.

So those are some of the challenging things too, is just pulling back and sometimes it puts you or paints that picture of like, oh, you're this guy that, you know, doesn't want to be around the staff when really you do, you just have to like… Yeah, it's, it's hard to say. It's like, yeah, you've got to kind of just separate yourself.

You can't do after hour get-togethers or those types of things.

Jason: [00:07:33] Yeah. I remember when I had, I think we're about eight people at the time and a lot of the people at this level, um, I remember having them over at my house, like a bonfire behind and I just treated them as like friends. And then I remember the culture really started shifting a little bit in the wrong way, um, for like listening to us.

It was kind of like, they didn't look at you as the leader anymore, but like, oh, I can do whatever. I remember having to get rid of a lot of those people. And I remember coming back at it going I can't do that anymore. And it's like, one of my favorite movies is miracle right there about the 1980 hockey team.

If any of you have watched or hasn't watched it, you got to go watch it. It's really pretty amazing. And, uh, Herb, I think it was Herb Green was that w was that the coach's name at the time? And the whole, this whole committee wanted to put all these a, a, you know, all these, a, um, star people on the team. He was like, no, I want the right people on the right position.

Um, it's not, they're not the best player, but the best player for the team. And I remember him separating himself from his team. Like… and I remember the doctor and his assistant coach was like, has he ever done this? It's like, no, never, but there's always a reason. And, uh, it is, you know, it is pretty lonely at the top.

Um, what are some things that you've done to kind of make you sane because you are on an island?

Darren: [00:09:15] Yeah. Um, so actually probably the best thing was joining the mastermind group too. And just being around other agency owners and just being able to share with them directly. Because those are the stories that we haven't been able to share internally.

And then you have somebody that's in the same boat as you, that you can be like, all right, I get it. Like, let's just talk through this. So I think that's really valuable too, because, yeah, I see it with every agency owner where they start to have second thoughts of like, do I get rid of the agency? Do I keep going? Is this the right thing for me?

Um, so yeah, I mean, we all battled depression too, which is an unfortunate thing as a business owner, but, it's something that everybody should be aware of.

Jason: [00:10:03] Well, I think, I think the depression comes because we do feel like everything's on our shoulders. And there's, you know, there's, it's like these people are going to eat or they're going to die, you know, with us.

And that's, I think we put too much pressure on ourselves. You know, I've always joked about, I've always been fired from every position I've ever had, other than the ones I create. Um, and it's always been the best thing, right? So I can go on to the next, and I could eventually find this. And I look at, look, even if you make a wrong decision as an agency owner. That's okay.

Like you get a reset, even if it does take down and you have to lay people off. That's okay. People are going to be fine. They're resilient. They'll actually go do it. So it's not a life and death situation. Um, yeah. And you know, I hear so many stories, kind of like yours. I was many points in my agency where I just wanted to throw in the towel.

I was, uh, I was looking through some of the stories and old emails, um, to kind of look at some of the successes that our clients have had over the years. And, you know Jack well, and I remember Jack, he sent me an email many years ago. He goes, should I shut down the agency or push on? And like there's so many times, and I remember sending him an email. I was like, uh, no, you should push on.

And I said, whenever you feel it you're at the max kind of the Navy Seals have this motto that you're only at 40%, you still have 60% to go. I'm so glad he continued, cause now is a multimillion-dollar agency, uh, you know, owner. And he's picking and choosing doing what he wants, but it's just like, sometimes you have to disconnect and get the emotion.

Like how do you… in your agency, I think a lot of times I would, even in my company now, uh, you make emotional decisions. So how do you take emotion out of it when you're making a decision?

Darren: [00:12:04] That's the hardest thing, because I feel like I make a lot of decisions based on emotion too. So I think the best thing to do in that case is don't decide right at the moment. Like, digest it, take, uh, take time.

Um, like I think another thing that agency owners fail to do is they don't take vacations. Like, especially early on too. And that was something that I started to do, because just as you said, it's kind of like a reset to get away and be like, all right, recharge, think about it. And really just like reflect on where you're going, what you're doing and think about it. Because I've had those moments too, too, where it's like, all right, what do I do?

And sometimes that is it's like, you just need to get away.

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I love that you said take a vacation, get away, because especially for the first couple of years, or decade for some people… You work around the clock because you're like, this is my time I got to grab as much as I possibly can. But it's almost kind of like, you know, my son, um, he runs the mile at track and a lot of kids take off just sprint the first two, and then they die at the last two. You got to pace yourself.

And I find, I found, you know, especially in doing this business… You know, I, I felt like I wanted to get all the market share, but I knew I was like, well, why, why, why do I need that? And I said, I need to have some time to self-reflect to do my own thing. That's why I only work Monday through Thursday, you know, from a certain time to a certain time.

And that's the firm's goal of each quarter is around my time goal. And that's a rule. I don't break it. I think so many others, if they did that, then they enjoyed a lot more. And yeah, you might not grow as quick but who cares if you grow a thousand times, you know, every, every year, if it's going to get you a shitty life?

Darren: [00:15:22] Exactly. Yeah. I mean, if it's consistent and you're still seeing that growth, even if it's small, I would much rather have that than… You know, early on we did some significant growth and scaled up, probably too quickly, and had it take some time back and just like, all right, we, we need to work on process. We have to do this, get this set up.

So yeah, I think that's the other thing too. Everybody's always so impatient to like, just as you said, cover everything. And it's like, you don't have to.

Jason: [00:15:56] Yeah. What, um… one of the things like, how did you kind of change the impatientness, uh, of kind of giving yourself more time, because I see so many agencies they rush.

Like how did you know…? Because everything in your company is designed to break, I look at right? Like think about, uh, marketing should break sales. Sales should break operations, right? And so how did you know what's the right pace for you to grow? I think not many people really talk about that.

We just talk about 10X, 20X, 2X, whatever it is. Like, how do you find the right pace for your growth in order for it to work for you?

Darren: [00:16:42] Um, really, it was the ability to learn, to say no, which is like one of the hardest things too. Because you can look like, just, as you said, you had access to production schedules, like, you know what's happening.

You could easily take another job on top of it and kill your staff or you can say, all right, you've identified this, you, you mentioned a couple of red flags and it's probably not the right fit. So even though you have the money and you're ready to go, we're not going to take on the project. So that's been like the biggest thing to like slow it down. And just make sure that, you know, selecting the right type of work.

That took me years to figure it out. Um…

Jason: [00:17:30] Was it because of process, process of elimination? Or why do you think it took you many years? It took me many years as well.

Darren: [00:17:40] Yeah. It's really, it's just, um, saying no to the money, because just as you said, early on, it's like everything's on our shoulders to make sure that we're paying salaries. We're making sure that we're providing.

So when you have the money there and you see it and like, okay, this is going to help everybody out. But at the same time, you start to look at it, is it really going to help everybody out or is it going to put them in a different type of mental state that you don't want them in?

Um, so yeah, it was challenging because yeah, when we first started, we were taking on any project that we could get because it was just a project to put in the queue. Um, so I think that was probably one of the biggest things and it's hard to learn and to, you know, say no.

Jason: [00:18:25] How… last thing I want to ask you, um, is your team is always going to say you're maxed out or they're maxed out.

So, and I don't think many people talk about this either of going, how do you really truly tell if your team is maxed out or not in order to figure out when to say no? Like I know you're saying when to say no to the wrong client, or when you can say I need to bring on someone else to help. Because that's a, I think that's an, that takes, you know, years and years to figure that out too.

Like, cause I remember my team going. Man, we're, we're maxed out. We can't take on any more work.

Darren: [00:19:08] Yeah. Now you hear that a lot. And, you know, there's things like time tracking that you can look at and everything, but really the best way is just to sit down with your team one-on-one and just ask them outright.

Like, how are you feeling like you want to go through it together? Like, let's talk about it. Because the other big thing too is like, you know, we're in the agency life, we're not in the ER. Like we have projects that, you know, sure they may have a deadline, but it doesn't mean that somebody is going to die because we can't get it done on that day.

Like, so that's the other thing too, is like just setting expectations and going through that. I think that's, you know, another hard lesson for agency owners is, you know, they do one project at this time and then figure that's what it's going to take for every other project. But every client's different, you don't know what it's going to like, be like to work with them.

Um, so really setting those expectations and letting your staff know that you've got their back and be like, all right, here's the deadline? What can we do to hit it? Can we pull in other team members? Or is this even a realistic deadline? Do we have to stretch it? So yeah. It's just really that transparency and just, you know, talking to your staff, like they're humans, because really they are the most important piece of the agency.

Jason: [00:20:31] Too it's, it's relying on them, right? Like I always tell everybody it's like delegate the outcomes you want, not the tasks. And a lot of times too, you can delegate the problems to them. Um, without divulging that you don't have a clue about it, right? So if you went to your staff going, uh, I don't know how to grow this damn company, can you guys help me out? They're all going to do, they're all going to jump ship.

But if you can kind of go, hey, what do you guys think? I want to get your input on, you know, what do you guys think we need to do in order to get to this point? They're going to be like, wow. You know, Darren's asking me for my input. So I feel significant. I can contribute. I can be a part of something bigger than myself. It's just about reframing that.

So just, and the other thing too, and I think you've realized this, you know because look running an agency's tough and you're going to have a lot of days where you wanting to quit. How you come into the office, if you guys have an office or how you show up, when you chat with your team, directly impacts them and their mood.

I remember when I would show up to the office, if a client screwed us or whatever happened, uh, or if I was mad at a business partner. If I showed up pissed or in a bad mood, it, it rained down.

Did you see that as well?

Darren: [00:21:56] Yeah. Yeah, because my team knows me well enough that they can tell as well too. And I'm the type that likes to do shenanigans and pranks at the office to keep everything light. And cause really it is… it's like, we're all supposed to have fun. Like, just take it easy and just do good work and rely on each other.

I mean, it's just simple rules.

Jason: [00:22:22] And Darren really means that like he showed up at the digital agency experience with, uh, what was a balloon launcher? Um, he was the first one when we found that creepy tunnel in the old mines. I was like, I pulled like literally guys, we found this old mine when we were on these ATVs and it wasn't locked.

And I opened this and I look at Darren, I go, you want to go in? And before I knew it, he was in and we kept one person out in case we all died, like an avalanche happened, but, uh, it was so much fun.

Darren: [00:22:54] Yeah, exactly. I mean, we only get one shot, so just make it count.

Jason: [00:22:58] That's right. Well, awesome. Darren, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the people listening in?

Darren: [00:23:06] Um, I would just say just, if you start to doubt yourself, just you know, talk to family and talk to loved ones, take a break. Um, because you're going to be able to push through it. Like, don't feel like it's all on you that you do have a support line that's out there

Jason: [00:23:24] And what's the website people can go and check, uh, check the agency out?

Darren: [00:23:28] Yeah. So it's an Idea Marketing Group. And then, then it's ideamktg.com.

Jason: [00:23:36] Awesome. Everyone go check it out. And if you guys liked this episode, you'll make tape. Make sure you take a screenshot. Shut us out on Instagram saying, hey, got a lot of value from it. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

We'll give you a shout-out back as well.

And uh, if you guys want to be surrounded by amazing agency owners like Darren and come to, uh, the mountain to have an amazing time and just be able to talk about the stuff you can't talk about with your crew. Um, I'd love to invite you guys together to digitalagencyelite.com and see if we're the right fit for you and if you're the right fit us.

So make sure to go there now. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Are you too involved in your agency’s operations? Too stuck working IN the business to work ON the business? It's time to fire yourself from some of operations tasks and increase agency valuation. Removing yourself from daily operations is a great way to prepare your agency for an eventual sale and increase its valuation when the time comes. Start by identifying tasks you don't like as well as the ones someone else could do much better.

Tom Foster is the founder of Foster Web Marketing, a digital agency that helps doctors and lawyers get in front of their ideal customers. Clients usually come to them to build their websites, but many choose to also have them handle aspects like website optimization and content creation. After transforming to a fully virtual model, it took an acquisition offer for Tom to realize he needed to change some things in order to increase its value.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Preparing your agency for a future sale.
• The different approaches to sale.
• Firing yourself from your agency tasks.

Sponsors and Resources

Wix: Today’s episode is sponsored by the Wix Partner Program. Being a Wix Partner is ideal for freelancers and digital agencies that design and develop websites for their clients. Check out Wix.com/Partners to learn more and become a member of the community for free.

What's your agency's valuation? Get the formula here.

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Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host:  Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the co-founder of Rise25, an agency that helps companies launch and run podcasts profitably. He followed Jason’s podcast and eventually joined the mastermind and has been a guest on the podcast before. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and bringing a new perspective to the show.

Are You the One Bringing Down Your Agency's Valuation?

Tom originally entered the world of technology to focus on sales and marketing in 1991 after serving a six-year tour in the Marines. Right after the Marines, he went to work in software sales doing cold calls, fax blasts, and selling translation software. He ended up being very successful early on and got into the software business in the floppy disc era.

After forming his own agency, Foster Web Marketing, Tom started working on an all-in-one solution SaaS for website building. Creating his own software was a big undertaking, but there weren’t as many options back then. The platform, called DSS, continues to be part of his agency’s main offering. The platform offers CMS, CRM, lead management system and SEO tool, social media tools. Everything you’ll need for DIY digital marketing.

Recently, he received an offer to sell his agency. Although it was very flattering the time just wasn’t right. However, it helped him realize he needed to fix some things to increase the agency’s value to where he knew it could be. The most noticeable problem was that Tom was involved in everything. As the agency’s visionary, he knew he needed to fire himself that were not the most effective ways to spend his time.

Try a Different Approaches to Grow Agency Sales

For Tom, constant communication is the most important aspect of training someone in a new task in your agency. Of course, he also likes to hire people who bring their own experience. He recently hired someone with a lot of experience in a different area of sales. There are different types of sales people and different approaches to the sale:

• Hunters find prospects and generate interest
• Trappers close the sale

Tom used to exclusively hire trappers but now he wants a more well-rounded sales team. Rather than just continuing what he has done over the years,  he's looking for a new or different approach. He understand what he's been doing has gotten the agency where it is. However, in order to grow it's important to hire someone to get them to the next level.

Fire Yourself From Agency Operations

When he first started the agency, Tom coded, designed, wrote copy -- all the things! Recently, he has been delegating most of those tasks, or as he calls it, firing himself from his many jobs. He trusts his team to do a much better job. It wasn't easy at first, but he started by delegating any task he didn’t like and things he knew someone else could do better. He has a great agency team who he trusts and feels comfortable leaving the job to them.

You might be the person holding back your agency growth. Consider all the tasks you're doing. Which ones can be delegated? Which don't you like or aren't good at? Lean on your team and delegate outcomes. There are probably tasks you really enjoy doing and don’t want to let go of, and that’s fine. Tom still jumps into sales and marketing once in a while but acknowledges those can't be his focus while also focusing growing the agency.

Creating a Strong Agency Culture While Being Fully Virtual

When the pandemic started, Tom's office had a staff of 30. Like many businesses in the light of Covid-19, they swiftly moved to a remote team overnight and got stuck paying rent for an empty office for two years. In the end, it worked out well because going virtual allowed them to become more efficient and effective. As a fully remote agency, Tom sources talent from different parts of the country. Expanding beyond geographic limits has allowed him to hire amazing talent. It has also allowed him to keep talent that decided to move away from the DC area after the pandemic.

That said, company culture is a very important element of any successful agency and Tom admits it’s really hard to do over Zoom. How do you inspire a remote team and maintain culture? Keep your staff content by creating a good work environment. It’s not just about giving them a raise, it's about treating them with respect and protecting them from abusive clients.

Tom also believes in creating bonding moments in a virtual environment. He encourages game nights and morning meetings with the entire staff, where managers go over the most important things that happened the day before and the agenda for the day. This is a way to keep the entire staff in the loop when it comes to what’s happening in the company.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Are you having trouble scaling your agency? Considering a merger as a growth plan? Have you been approached about merging with another agency? A merger can be a great way to scale up faster by adding a new, complimentary service or a bigger piece of the niche. On the other hand, agency mergers are just as risky as starting the business the first time. If you're considering a merger, there are ways to ensure it is successful

In this episode, we'll cover:

• Three plans you need to make your agency merger successful.
• Why your some team members might not follow your agency merger.
• Creating team trust through vulnerability.

I talked to Lisa Vielee, who merged her small, 4-person team with a larger full-service agency 15 years ago. Initially, she was seeking a mentor to learn how to scale. He agreed, but also asked her to consider merging the agencies and succeeding him when he retired. The two now have a team of 30 people, and Lisa is President of Well Done Marketing. She is here to explain how the agency has thrived since the merger.

Three Plans You Need to Make When Merging

Lisa agreed to merge her agency with Well Done Marketing because she had reached the point with her four-person team where she either needed to let them go and return to freelancing or scale into something bigger. She chose a mentor who had successfully grown his own full-service agency. Instead, the two decided to merge agencies. This isn't a simple process, however. It involved developing plans and getting on the same page in three different areas:

1. The 5 to 8-year plan: It is one thing to combine two teams into one. It's another thing figuring out how to move the newly created team forward. You need to find a way to retain their unique connections with clients and provide a greater number of services for all clients involved.
2. The divorce plan: Just as in marriage, most people don't want to think about their brand new merger not working out. However, businesses that merge sometimes fail for any number of reasons. Developing a plan for how to "unmerge" - a sort of prenuptial agreement - is as important as the merger itself.
3. The team plan: One of the mistakes Lisa made in planning a merger was failing to let their teams completely experience all the emotions. Emotions over a merger can range from anxiety about working with new people to sadness over change.

Why Some Team Members Might Not Follow Your Agency Merger

One of the scary things involved in a merger is the notion that your existing team may not agree with the new direction. Part of Lisa's own growth was learning the importance of giving her team the information they need and letting them decide to stay or not.

When Lisa's agency merged with Well Done, she did lose some team members. However, because she was able to realize they had a responsibility to choose their own career path, she continues to partner with those former employees on projects. Lisa turns to them when she needs freelance work and has the opportunity to see them continue to grow and contribute to the creative community.

Creating Team Trust Through Vulnerability

But wait, the work isn't finished once the merger itself is complete and the teams are working together. Lisa explains you must create cohesion and a unified vision for the team. A few years ago, some young team members requested to add empathy to the team's culture. However, what Lisa realized, was in order to receive empathy, they needed to first become vulnerable to one another.

Vulnerability, she says, is the act of letting go of control of the outcome and trusting others in their role. It involves talking to people, not just about the work but about outside things that impact their work. This was something she learned as President of the merged agency -- a role that allows her to step back, view how the agency is functioning, and create a culture without micromanaging the work being done by the team.

Would you like a 90% close rate on the deals you want?

It took my agency years to develop a solid foot in the door offer that converted at a high rate. And, Ian has spent the last 10 years developing his too. That's why we decided to collaborate and create the FITD framework to share with other agency owners.

If you want to learn more check out FootInTheDoor.com. You can discover the exact framework that Ian and I created so you can be successful. Close deals faster, stop giving away strategy for free and win the deals you want. When you have the right framework, you will find your sales process is scalable. You can even step away from sales and so you can spend your time working on the best.

Are you looking for the right formula for quick agency growth? When Ellen Jantsch was working as a head of growth in a small tech startup, she felt there was space for an agency focused on testing and executing strategies into long-term sustainable growth. She held on to that idea while she worked as a freelancer and when she started Tuff, a remote growth team for hire. They work with teams in nearly every industry to deliver actionable strategies to attract and keep more engaged customers. Today she joins the podcast to talk about how she found the right formula for quick growth for her agency, her strategic move to grow the agency's most valuable asset, and the moment she started thinking of a more repeatable formula to generate new business.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Test to find the right formula. When discussing how to find the right formula to grow your business, Ellen recalls that, more than anything, what helped her find the right fit for her agency was finding what didn’t work for them. “Testing and experimentation was a much quicker route to finding what was going to work,” she assures. The agency relied a lot on word of mouth at one point and at one point they started to try different approaches, from outbound sales to putting on workshops and events. Finally, they focused on an SEO strategy that now brings 75 leads per month to their door.
2. The foundation to grow your most valuable asset. In an unusual move, for her second hire, Ellen searched for an HR person. “If you’re serious about building a remote team and a small team,” she assures, “you have to put a lot of foundation in place.” So, she worked with this person to set a career framework and think about the hiring processes. They decided on details like how to set up benefits and compensation and how to create an inclusive hiring process. It took a lot of time, but your agency team is your most valuable asset, after all. By the time she figured out what direction she wanted for the agency and the type of roles she needed to hire, there was already a solid hiring process in place.
3. A predictable pipeline is everything. One of the things that became very clear for Ellen when she thought about what she could do to continue to grow her agency was that she would need to figure out how to create a more repeatable formula for generating new business. A more predictable look at revenue and growth would allow making strategic hiring decisions early, versus hiring someone when the pressure is up due to so much work. The only way to get ahead of that is to predict what the next six months are going to look like.

Sponsors and Resources

Wix: Today's episode is sponsored by the Wix Partner Program. Being a Wix Partner is ideal for freelancers and digital agencies that design and develop websites for their clients. Check out Wix.com/Partners to learn more and become a member of the community for free.

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Finding the Right Formula For Quick Agency Growth and Generating New Business

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here. And on today's episode, we have an amazing guest, uh, fellow Coloradan, if that's a word, I don't know. I just moved here so I don't know. But we're going to talk about how she's grown her agency so quickly. And, uh, go over some of the strategies that have worked for her and some of the things that might not have worked, so it helps you avoid them.

So let's go ahead and get into the episode.

Hey, Ellen. Welcome to the show.

Ellen: [00:00:33] Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jason: [00:00:36] Yeah. Excited to have you on. So tell us who you are and what do you do?

Ellen: [00:00:39] I run a business called Tuff. We’re a small, fully remote growth marketing agency partnering primarily with startups, scale-ups, helping them get traffic and grow their revenue. We focus on tactics like Google ads, technical SEO, content, creative, Facebook ad, CRO, and email. Really trying to figure out how to test quickly and then operationalize small wins into long-term sustainable growth.

Jason: [00:01:04] Awesome. And so how did you get started creating your agency?

Ellen: [00:01:09] Primarily through freelancing. I think that's probably a common story, but I had done in my career prior to freelancing corporate marketing worked at an ad tech startup worked at like a really small startup as a head of growth. And I knew… Felt like there was an opportunity to, to start an agency like Tuff. But wanted to hone in on my own kind of experiences, primarily from an executional standpoint.

So I freelanced for about a year and a half. Some consulting to strategy work, but a lot of executional work running Google ads, running Facebook ads, writing email copy. Trying to just kind of hone in on the services that Tuff was going to provide initially. And then got to a crossroads where it felt like I had enough money in the bank.

I knew I didn't want to ever take capital as I started Tuff. And so I, I pretty much planned to have enough, enough money to pay myself a salary as well as two other people for six months, even if we didn't sign a single client. And at that point about three years ago, decided to start Tuff and put the freelancing work to the side.

Jason: [00:02:11] Awesome, and so what were the roles of the two people that you hired first and why?

Ellen: [00:02:16] Yeah, two people. Um, the first one was a PPC strategist, somebody to take over a lot of the day-to-day executional work I was doing for clients, Google ads, Bing ads, YouTube ads, that type of work. It allowed me to take off one hat and pass it to somebody else.

The second hire was crazy to think about now, a non-revenue generating employee. Somebody to help us with people ops. I do think that if you're serious about building a remote team and a small team, you have to put a lot of foundation in place.

We worked on a career framework. We thought about hiring processes. How do you set up benefits? How do you think about compensation? What's equitable? How do you create an inclusive hiring process? Just spend a lot of time getting that in place before we started actually thinking about building a team.

Jason: [00:03:00] That's great. No, that's really great. That's first time I've heard someone bring on like an HR-type person as their second role.

I thought you would say like project manager. And everyone always thinks they're not billable. Like, they're billable. I don't know why no one thinks that, but I usually tell people around the 10 person mark to get the HR and people usually are shocked. They're like, I thought you had to do that much later on.

But I think a lot of people think they're just doing paperwork. And they're not doing all the other things to make sure you get the right people.

Because the people in agency are the most valuable asset.

Ellen: [00:03:36] Especially in a service-based agency, you know, I think it's people work with Tuff because they like the experience of the team members here.

And if you don't get that right, then you have a lot of employee turnover. The cost of hiring the wrong employees is astronomical, if you ask me. And so I'd rather get it right the first time around.

Jason: [00:03:54] Yeah. Well, do you guys feel that you've got it right on the first couple of hires? I know. Man, I hired so many of the wrong people. I got rid of a lot of the right people too. Many, many years. Cause I didn't have that person.

Ellen: [00:04:06] Yeah, we really struggled in the beginning, mostly because we had a strong process for hiring, I feel, but didn't really know what we wanted. And I think that goes back to as well as being the kind of first-time founder never working on an agency before.

We hadn't really established our playing field. So we were kind of like saying yes to every opportunity. We were doing any type of service that we could offer. We were just trying to generate revenue. And I didn't have a clear enough picture around what we actually need out of team members and what kind of like the long-term vision and who the right client is for Tuff. And we've kind of paralleled those.

And as it became more clear around where we get the right results and the types of clients we want to work with, it becomes a lot easier to hire because you know exactly what you're looking for. But in the beginning it was a cluster. I was just shocked anybody wanted to work with us, to be honest.

Jason: [00:04:50] Yeah, I think everyone has to go through the cluster. It's like that Vegas buffet, you're trying out everything.

What was the pivotal moment where you got that clarity?

Ellen: [00:05:00] Yeah, I think it probably happened about 18 months ago. And two things became really clear if I was going to continue to have any chance of growing Tuff, we had to figure out how to hire talent that's adaptable, autonomous more senior in position.

So not people that we'd have to train extensively in the beginning who had experience working on small teams. So really honing in on characteristics versus job responsibilities, and that's been really helpful. Um, the second thing would be how do you create a more repeatable formula for generating new business?

I think when you have a more predictable look at revenue and growth, it becomes a lot easier to then make strategic hiring decisions early. Versus waiting to kind of like feel the pinch in the stress of like, oh gosh, we've got a lot of work. We've got to hire somebody else. Or this whole thing is going to collapse. You can get to a point where you slowly get out of that and get ahead of it with hiring and you can't do that unless you can predict what the next six months is going to look like.

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And when it comes to growing your agency, you can get matched with new leads every day and earn revenue share for every website you guys create.

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Yeah. Building a predictable pipeline is everything, right? Like if your business is built on word of mouth, which I always joke around saying that's just not scalable. And you're relying on other people, then you're going to take on work that you probably shouldn't be. Because there's no such thing as a bad agency client and only a bad prospect or a bad process.

And, and so when you can build that predictable pipeline, it makes things a lot easier where you're picking and choosing. So let's transition to that. What's worked for you for building a more full pipeline?

Ellen: [00:07:25] I think more than anything, what hasn't worked. I have found at least with Tuff, testing and experimentation was a much quicker route to finding, finding what was going to work.

And I think in the early days we relied a lot on word of mouth. Um, larger agencies. We tried to kind of like create partnerships for any clients they didn't want.

Jason: [00:07:43] That doesn’t work.

Ellen: [00:07:45] No. Let's see, I put on workshops, I went to events. I would like get in touch with people that had been connected with LinkedIn. We tried outbound sales, um, saw some success there, but definitely not like a natural skillset for me. So a bit of a stretch. So we tried a whole bunch of different things for about a year. Um, got exhausted.

And finally realized how do we generate more inbound leads then have, have healthier conversations and get people knocking on our door and getting curious about working with top and wanting to work with us. And so we started getting really specific with an SEO strategy.

So that took, you know, that's a slow burn. It's not a, it's not like paid acquisition. It's not like referrals. It takes a long time to build it was a schlep. But now when you go into Google and type growth marketing agency, you're going to see Tuff in the number one spot. If you type content, strategy, agency, technical SEO agency, YouTube ads agency, we're going to be in the top three.

And now we're lucky and humbled enough to have 75 leads knock on our door a month. And we maybe take on one or two. And I couldn't have predicted that level of scale ever, but the organic acquisition has really been important for us.

Jason: [00:08:52] Very cool. Yeah. You know, I always tell everybody, it's kind of like, as you're building and growing the business, you got to experiment with what's not working. And then kind of go back to kind of the basics and really build on that foundation.

And what we found too cause a lot of times. In the very beginning, when we were growing our agency, we grew it from being in the search engines and people coming to us. Then when we started getting, wanting to get to the next level, we started realizing, man, we need this outbound channel. Man, we need this strategic partnership channel. You know, Google changes one thing, we're toast.

And then we're laying off a lot of people. So it's always… always a work in progress.

Ellen: [00:09:37] Yeah. I couldn't agree enough. And I think we kind of, you know, like we partner with clients every day to think about growing revenue and acquiring new customers or users for them. And we try to apply the same process for Tuff.

So we do quarterly growth marketing strategies. We stay pretty committed to it, but I would say we're like in that moment right now, Jason, where 75% of our leads come from organic traffic. And when you think about having all of your eggs in one basket, it's terrifying. And so we're starting to get to this point where we're capturing a lot of existing demand, how do we start to create a little bit more demand? And how does that look like for us long-term?

Jason: [00:10:12] Yeah. I almost even look at it too of like, when I hear 75 leads a month, I'm like, okay, good. How can I make them even better? Or how could I even convert them more? Like I was talking to Darby or skill specialist. I'm like, well, out of the conversations that you set up, how could we have the ones we want… How do we increase that conversion rate?

Just a little bit. That's always those little fine tweaks that work. I'm going to ask you something I've never really asked anybody that I'm gonna start doing the show. What's the thing that you've regretted that you haven't done in the agency yet?

Ellen: [00:10:47] For the agency. Hmm. That's such a great question. I think, um, this is very tactical, but I apologize. It's top of mind. We didn't add on our creative team until recently. And in the growth game, we're really metrics driven data driven, thinking about tactics and the strategies behind those. But if you don't have really good creative, you're not going to get very far.

And for so long we outsourced that. Not really trusting in our processes, not really understanding what that would look like in house. And we didn't bring it in house until about three months ago. And now I'm like, oh shit, we need to triple that team tomorrow.

And so I think I would've just looked a little bit more holistically at our services and figure out… Again, it just goes back to how do you exchange the most value? And where can you team be the strongest?

And I was slow to, I was slow to pick up on that.

Jason: [00:11:34] Awesome. Well, Ellen, this has all been amazing. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Ellen: [00:11:40] No, I think you've covered it.

Jason: [00:11:42] All right. Perfect. Uh, what's the website people go and check out the agency?

Ellen: [00:11:46] tuffgrowth.com.

Jason: [00:11:48] Awesome. Very easy. Everyone go check it out.

And if you liked this episode, make sure you guys subscribe. Make sure you hit the like button, comment. And uh, if you guys want to be around amazing agency owners on a consistent basis. Where you can grow your agency faster because you can get their opinions and then they can share what's working for them. So you can scale and grow faster.

I'd like to invite all of you to the digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind where the agency owners are growing very, very quickly and having a fun time doing it. So make sure you go to digitalagencyelite.com.

And until next time have a Swenk day.

How can you create more video for your agency content? In this brief episode, Jason shares his tips and tricks for live streaming and video marketing. 

Are you struggling to get a handle on your agency’s growth? Have you established the right strategies for formalizing growth beyond referrals? Today’s guest grew organically for a long time but eventually saw the need to clearly define his agency’s direction and business goals. His team lacked a clear understanding of the overall direction, resulting in the constant need for guidance. He talks about the moment he knew it was time to hire an operator and how having clear processes and systems benefitted his team. He also shares how starting a podcast revived his agency, fueled their social media, and helped him become a better leader.

Paris Childress is the founder and CEO of Hop Online, a performance marketing agency for SaaS companies. Having run his agency for 14 years, he’s seen many ups and downs and come out stronger. Today he shares how to identify and navigate the hard times of entrepreneurship and advice on how to overcome challenges and make informed decisions. Tune in for an inspiring conversation with a seasoned agency owner.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Becoming a manager of systems, not people.
• Formalizing growth with a three-fold marketing strategy.
• Establishing a brand and leadership through podcasting.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Learning to Manage Systems Instead of People to Grow Beyond Referrals

Paris is an accidental agency owner who rushed to create a company once he realized invoices were an important part of getting paid. At the time, he didn’t fully understand what he was creating but luckily organic growth soon followed.

As time went by, Paris realized the agency was not set up to see real growth past initial referrals. The challenge now was to get the systems and the structure in place to grow his small team. It was time to move from managing people to managing systems.

Basically, managing the agency was getting harder because he had to manage more and more people who didn’t always know what to do. They needed systems to fall back on. He needed to clearly define their services, implement SOPs, and figure out what they were good at. Step one was hiring an operator. As the agency’s visionary, he recognized it was time to get someone to focus on processes and execution.

His agency greatly benefitted from that clarity and setting up the systems for real growth. More recently, the pandemic presented new growth opportunities as SaaS businesses were red hot during COVID-19. Now, Paris is getting ready to tackle new challenges as SaaS businesses are seeing their valuations go down. It’s definitely a tougher environment with marketing budget cuts so they’re focusing on developing their brand.

Formalizing Growth with a Dedicated Team and a Partner for Outbound

One of the first steps to have a more serious focus on their marketing was formalizing a growth team working on generating more leads for the agency. It includes two full-time marketers, one salesperson, and himself.

With a decrease of new business coming their way, Paris made the conscious decision to dedicate agency resources to the problem. This helped them avoid downsizing. With the margins being way too low for way too long, he had been pondering that option. However, he realized it was not a marketing problem but rather a sales problem.

In terms of strategy, Paris was clear he needed to develop the 3 marketing channels: inbound, outbound, and partnerships. To tackle their lack of inbound strategy, he launched a podcast, which has become his favorite part of his week. It’s still very small but it’s starting to attract the right audience. A podcast can make a huge difference in your brand even with 50 to 100 downloads per week. It’s not about building a huge audience, but rather building a relevant audience.

As to the outbound piece, Paris is surprised at how well it’s worked. They’d previously tried in the past with internal teams but this year they found a qualified partner to help them on this front. The result has been a steady pipeline with pretty good leads for them. Of course, it is a longer sales cycle than inbound or referrals. Discovery calls should be approached with a much more consultative approach and guide the conversation to get them talking about their business so they can start to realize they do need help in some areas.

Establishing Thought Leadership Through Podcasting

Starting a podcast has helped revitalize his agency in many ways. For instance, they now get to repurpose that content. It’s fueling their social media and creating assets for salespeople.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly for Paris, it brought a lot of clarity for him as an agency owner. Since having the podcast, he has had new exciting ideas and gets to have interesting conversations with influential entrepreneurs. It has made him more focused and a better leader for his team.

Paris strives to find guests he knows his audience will enjoy and benefit from. It can also be a strategy to invite people he’d like to be clients but this aspect is not a primary concern for him. He focuses on generating great conversations. In his opinion, if that person is ready to work with him they’ll come back based on that first exchange they had during the podcast.

As a strategy, a podcast will take time to bear fruit. Building your brand and establishing your agency as a leader in your niche takes a lot of effort. In the end, you will have a machine that creates predictability, freedom, and wealth but it all starts with creating content that helps and using that to build the business over time.

Real Growth Also Relies on Client Retention

One key aspect of building a successful agency is client retention. Once you have the strategies to maintain a full pipeline, you’ll also need to work on having sound processes. Separate yourself on your processes and you’ll see the positive impact on your client churn rate. It’s not always about constantly getting new clients, maintaining those clients also requires a lot of work and will help you experience real growth.

The frustration of constantly having to replace lost clients is not conducive to the growth and success of an agency. If you’re experiencing this, it may be time to think about what you can do differently in terms of service delivery and marketing. After all, bringing on two clients and losing one is better than a 1:1 win/loss ratio.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners who can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Do you want to know the #1 thing is that you need to stop doing when pitching to a big brand?

If you are ready to become a big brand agency, this is the insight you need to get you there. In this episode, I sat down with Carlos Tribino, CMO of GiftCards.com. Carlos has been on both the agency and large brand side of the pitch and has 20 years of experience in marketing.

He’s going to tell us why you should understand your prospect before you pitch and what big brands are looking for when picking an agency.

What are the big brands looking for in an agency?

The number one thing they want is for you to understand their business. By really understanding your prospect’s industry you can tap into smart insights and develop strong, compelling, and relevant ideas for brand positioning.

Not to mention, this level of understanding will help you go beyond the obvious and craft original, compelling position statements.

Carlos also points out that big brands aren’t typically looking for full service agencies but rather agencies that are specialists in a particular area. There are so many new technologies out there, it’s hard to be knowledgeable enough on all of them. Pick an area and excel in it.

The no-no’s that agencies need to stop doing.

Not surprisingly, the biggest no-no is failing to understand the prospect’s business. Or worse - pretending to understand it.

Be real, not just opportunistic.

If you’re calling up prospects and giving some generic pitch you need to stop. Do your homework and make sure that when you call you express that not only can help them accomplish XYZ but also how you’re going to do it. It’s not only impressive to the prospect that you’ve done your homework but also shows that you really understand their business.

How often should I be following up?

Don’t be afraid to follow up! It’s okay to keep in contact, especially if you’re adding value each time. Check in and include a white paper, or perhaps forward along an article related to the prospect’s industry.

You want to show interest and willingness, but not go overboard with the follow ups. Check in every couple of weeks or once a month. Or whenever there’s a big change in the industry or with the company. You can use those opportunities to come up with a cool idea to throw their way.

The one thing you need to do differently right now.

Find yourself a cool client with a lot of potential and help them realize their awesomeness. People appreciate when you stick by them, and help to create something out of nothing. Once the client reaches their full potential, people will be asking who helped them get there, and your name is sure to come up.

Ready to be a Big Brand Agency?

Now that you know how to become a big brand agency, it's time to focus on the other hurdles and obstacles that are stopping your agency moving to the next level. I have all the advice you need.

No matter what you need advice on, I have more than likely covered it. From topics such as how a poor website design can affect your leads to how your agency can cope while you work through a recession. Or maybe you want to know the four phases of growth within your agency and want extra help in easing through agency growing pains? I have all the information you need to help you through it.

You can learn more about my life and business experience as well as lots of tips, tricks and insights by check out my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

And if videos are more your thing, i’ve got you covered! Check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my Youtube channel. There you will find advice from myself and other agency experts.

Hollis Carter is an entrepreneur and avid skier who, after founding many companies in his career, recently became the co-founder of the Baby Bathwater Institute, a membership-based community of entrepreneurs with a focus on cultivating natural, mutually beneficial relationships. Since his business relied on many in-person events, it was quite affected by the Covid 19 pandemic and subsequent restrictions. During this time of cancellations and being stuck at home, Hollis thought of a way to add value to the members during this new situation and started to offer a series of services with a performance-based model. This model quickly grew and he ended up selling it before actually having to fully build an agency. In this interview, he talked about the process of building and growing an agency to over $4 million and then selling it, all during a pandemic.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Growing an agency during Covid. Before the pandemic, Hollis was organizing many in-person events. Once they were canceled because of this new situation, he realized he had a perfect opportunity to offer a new service that would offer value to members of his mastermind. There was already a business relationship and he knew their products and believed in them. So he got ready to work under a performance-based model. “It was really very simple,” he says. The offer included podcast interviews, email lists, and content sites. He spent on setting up all the automation and tracking and found someone to handle that. And of course, under this model he was working with clients, not for them.
2. Simplifying the offer. How can you make things simpler for you? First of all, don’t just take a good deal. This agency had the advantage of having a group of companies whose product they trusted. Even then, our guest says, they took people who were so product-focused that we were going to get the content and the angles they needed. People who knew they needed to be told how to market this product. They also let clients use the work they were creating and focused on the 10% that drove revenue. However, there are some things they would do differently a second time around: setting a flat fee and, instead of complicated spreadsheets just telling the client “here’s the number that came in, this is our cut,” would save a lot of time. Finally, figuring out how to set expectations of timeline, having a written document with a timeline that the client can reread instead of emailing you questions.
3. Pulling from other industries. Hollis believes in taking knowledge from other industries into your own. He makes sure to have participants from different types of businesses in his masterminds and sustains there's always nuggets that you can pull from other industry practices that might not exist in a niche that you're opening, like what he has learned about hiring from the hotel space. He encourages others to give themselves a chance step outside what they know and learn something new that they can implement in their business from an unexpected source.

Sponsors and Resources

Ninja Cat: Today's episode is sponsored by Ninja Cat, a digital marketing performance management platform where you can unify your data, create beautiful, insightful reports and presentations that will help you grow your business. Head over to ninjacat.io/masterclass to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

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Growing an Agency Fast to Over $4 Million and Selling Quick

Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here. I have another amazing show guest. We're going to talk about how when COVID hit, they formed an agency and ramped it up to over $4 million and sold it, during COVID. So it's a really cool episode and you're going to enjoy my guest. So let's go ahead and get into it.

Hey, Hollis. Welcome to the show.

Hollis: [00:00:29] Hey, man. Thanks for having me.

Jason: [00:00:30] Pleasure to have you on. So for the people that have not heard of you or met you at one of your cool events, tell us who you are and what do you guys do?

Hollis: [00:00:39] Yeah. My name is Hollis Carter. Living in Boulder, Colorado, but originally from Georgia, where I kind of got my first start in internet marketing stuff. I was like early in college and built a couple of online businesses and luckily had one that did pretty well and sold that. And then I moved to Colorado and did this skiing thing for a while and, uh, living in the mountains and it was great, but I could only talk about skiing and snowboarding and mountain biking with people.

So, I’m now a front ranger living in Boulder and enjoy it and got back in the mix of things. Our main business is called the Baby Bathwater Institute. You've come out to one of our events that we had at out mountain. And, uh, I started, my other businesses based on the thing that I use to learn… Like no one was really teaching relevant stuff in the late nineties, early two thousands. So to do it, I thought let’s sit at the bar and a lobby at a conference and got most of my nuggets. And so when we had some free time, me and my now business partner who were lobby con buddies for like a decade… We started hosting these events and the whole idea was curating nice people who are in the grow and scale phase and the actual founders of their business.

And in a lot of different industries that we could draw knowledge from different places, less of a kind of echo chamber mastermind of people doing the same thing. Cause there's a lot of value in those, but it's very linear. This was more of organic group meetings to have fun and, um, draw things from other industries and stuff.

But we have agency people, we've got guys from hotels, we've got guys from e comm businesses… I guess I say people, not guys, cause we have plenty of girls too. We’ve been doing it for about eight years and I love it. Compared to the businesses I've done before, it's probably the dumbest business model. Cause it's overhead-intensive, time-intensive, relationship intensive. But I actually like it.

So we're doing it for years and we'll probably do it for a very long time and really enjoy it.

Jason: [00:02:37] Very cool. And COVID hit you guys really hard because your whole thing is about live experiences and that kind of stuff, uh, which are a lot of fun. And so tell us about like… cause we were talking a couple of weeks ago, you were like, man, I couldn't do these live events and that's really what the membership was for.

So we gave all this money back to the members because we couldn't do live events. But I started an agency kind of by accident and it quickly grew. So talk about how did you grow the agency so quick? What did you do? Because a lot of people are looking at going, and I've seen a lot of growth in agencies over during COVID, but yours was really pretty, pretty good.

So tell us a little bit more about that.

Hollis: [00:03:18] I think it was, it was different because much of it was born out just starting that momentum sort of grew versus sitting with a very particular plan. Where Baby Bathwater came less out of need more out of want, this came out of need. And so there… Also, we are locked in our house and I could stay focused on, cause I wasn’t doing… Going to conferences or traveling or doing things.

But I think the main frame was okay, just postpone slash canceled, who knows a handful of events. We basically lost about two and a half million bucks in that decision. Which happened before people in the states even believed that this COVID thing was gonna affect us because our president was in Italy. And so we saw it a little early.

We knew we didn't want to let people go. There was no PPP stuff yet. And me and my partner, Michael, we always knew we could always fall back on our marketing skills, which is kind of what got us to a place to even know what people wanted from a mastermind. So our personal interests has been in the health and wellness sort of space.

We see lots of stuff that's crap. And we see lots of stuff that's good. And we happened to know a few people who have amazing products that are members. But they’re product guys, they're not marketing people at all. And so we kind of went in with the thesis of how do we enhance the people who are already members value and we can't do anything for 'em, but also don't run any risk of screwing up the relationship if we get in bed with them and do something different than what we already have a good relationship with.

So, I mean, it basically started with four products. I knew we had people in the group who had platforms. That love the products, cause they give them out at events. They love them. And I know they have a lot of traffic and I knew these people have great products.

Didn't even know what I'm talking about. Like you should just set up this campaign and get them on the podcast and set up an email. You can track it with affiliate links… And all like, can you just do that for me? Kind of thing. So, I mean, it was actually super, super simple. Essentially, out of a network license for post affiliate pro so that we could track all of the clicks and conversions and build it very slowly, not a lot of overhead. It costed maybe like five grand or something we spent getting set up and all that automation and tracking. We did have a really hard time finding someone to help us run that once it worked. We ended up finding the guy who made the tutorial videos for the original version of it and tracked him down.

And it was the first hire because it was complicated and how he set up the company structure. But the basics of it was we had people get podcast, email lists and content sites. I mean, people have great products that had a unique hook. It couldn't just be like, like we did have a CBD, which is a crowded market with a bunch of people at all look the same. But this had clinical trials, some studies, so I could go get functional medicine doctors to say something unique about it and they could write a real piece of content.

So really we just took the friction out of the middle, which was, it's hard for the product owners to focus on these things that are ancillary. Then buy an ad that are not doing very diligent tasks that can scale these like one-off promotions and managing people is hectic.

Like if I had a brand, I wouldn't want to do stuff we were doing because I know the costliness of managing all these relationships and getting it on the calendar and getting all the stuff they need. But in our unique situation, we had time. We… the money. We wanted to serve the people who we wanted to have back when things came back online.

And so it made sense to keep calling them chatting and working it out and figuring it out. So our deal is that we took... it’s very minimal, it's just an average, about 10% of the revenue for 12 months of the customer.

And we would do a, you know, a multi-tiered campaign where, you know, perhaps the person to get on a podcast and do an interview about the product that was very educational and content-heavy. So it didn't just come out of the blue of this promotion. It was like ease into with good questions and then we’d do an article. And then eventually kind of like an email with a special offer and a landing page just for that person. And like something I've been back in early on was when one big person promotes the rest.

So we usually just go for, you know, one or two people we have a good relationship that have a big audience and then their affiliates would see it happen. And we'd get a few more of those. But we did, because it was so hands-on, mess around with people who could send, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of clicks and had an audience that already trusted them.

So very boutique, very niche, but where it worked, very effective. I'd say the biggest bottleneck was calendars. You could lock in a deal and they might not have three months so they could do it. But we hit a point where we were going to have to start hiring more people, we had a tech guy, an administrative helper in an industry that me and Michael were putting together. Then we hired someone to go start recruiting more promoters, and then we need to start hiring writers and creatives.

At that point, we actually ended up selling the business so that we didn't have to build an agency. The hard part of building an agency, managing the creatives, training, we never really hit that point.

Although it looks like I’ll go back to the trough and do it again. But I mean, really it was about that simple. It was like performance-based so we couldn't mess up relationships. And also we didn't want anyone to ever tell us, hey, you have to do this for me. Uh, it usually mostly came from the merchants with the products.

They'd be like, hey, where are the traffic? And we’re like, hey, we don't, we don't work for you. We’re not on a retainer, but it's coming, it's coming. Then we'll get paid. Well, we only get paid when we make sales. So that helped us not get stress out.

Jason: [00:09:32] Do you feel like you have to comb through mountains of data, jumping between multiple platforms to spreadsheets, to slide decks and backing in, in order to create performance reports for your clients? It's a constant drain on your agency's time and resources. And that's where our friends at Ninja Cat can help.

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Yeah, I see a lot of people going the performance route. You know, one of our mastermind members, David, he was always constantly under the million mark and just trying to figure out how to get over it. And he switched to this model and got a million dollars last year during COVID, just from one client for the performance deal. Kind of like what you guys are doing, or you guys did or about to do again. I guess we can talk about that.

But I liked how, when you're the performance model, they can't tell you what you can and can't do, or a timeline. You're just like, I'm putting a campaign together on our own dime, our own resources. This is what you're agreed to pay. I really like that. But I also like too, that, you know, this is a home run. Like it's a good product.

I want people to not kind of overlook that and just don't go up to anybody and go give me 10% of all your sales. And plus too, you guys had relationships with them so you knew you could trust them. Because it gets really tricky sometimes when you're like, yeah, give me 10% of sales and they could the books however they want.

Hollis: [00:11:54] Yes. So that was an interesting piece of... The one thing that I guess is there is we did have these relationships we've built over almost 20 years now. Which, if you just do it on the street, we couldn't start from scratch with that. So that was like our one… competitively used to do something here, but the book side of things, we actually knew how bad that can get.

So we control that this was a bottleneck and business model, as far as administration and just workload. I kept everything clean, but we were starting to get super risky. So we invoiced the merchant for the payments and wrote to the affiliates. We did everything. So we essentially became a bank taking the money, moving the money versus paying out of their own affiliate program.

It started to get pretty hectic. You get one monthly payment. We're trying to keep the relationships paying on time. We never ran into any issues, but you could see it coming as things got more complex.

Jason: [00:12:52] Well, I'm sure the IRS probably set up red flags of all the money moving around.

Hollis: [00:12:57] Oh, it was crazy that was passing through and yeah… And so like in hindsight, if we do this again, won't do the complicated equation where we have 12 months tail customer. We also calculated a refund risk thing. You know, now it's going to be one time upfront with a small fee for us that continues, but like the calculating the refund piece to try to mitigate risks. Like I think we went into it wanting to be like a no-brainer where it's like, hey, we've taken all the risks where X, Y, and Z, that you won’t have to do anything for.

Our contract is like the nicest thing in the world. If this was the only thing we were doing, and we were focused on it that thing would have sort of bit us in the ass, as it started to grow. But it worked well. It was boutique small. And we only did this from March to October. So it was like a significant period of time, but you can see all the forethought we didn't put into it with, oh man, the amount of time to calculate these things if I would’ve...

There's a bunch of things we do if we really want to scale it simpler. If we do this again, you know.

Jason: [00:14:05] What are some of the other things that you do simpler. Because most people listening here, this is their full-time gig. They weren't just looking at like, well, let's just try this project out, which that's really pretty cool that you guys are able to do that.

Hollis: [00:14:19] Yeah. I think, you know… fed the horse because we had all the relationships and we knew this I'd stayed up drinking wine with every person in the thing all night. I knew we could do well with good products, which you highlighted, is like products that kind of sell themselves.

And then the owner of those products, I think this is the simplest thing is don't just take a good deal. We only took people who were so product-focused that we were going to get the content and the angles we needed. All they cared about is being the best. But they didn't care about was telling us how to market it, that they actually wanted us to tell them. They would use the campaigns to inform all of the rest of their staff.

One thing we did do well and make it easy was, hey, use the work we're creating. We don't need any cut of it. You can take our landing pages, reuse them. If you get your own affiliates, you can run them through your program. You know, just do that. Cause we only focused on that 10% that drove our revenue.

The things we probably would have done different or not such a complicated calculation of the things. I remember when I first started in some of the affiliate stuff, people would hold back a percentage for refunds. There was like a whole equation. But we made everything else so simple for them. We didn't need to go, that… We could have just said here's a flat fee. Here’s a number.

Honestly, it would have saved one employee 40 hours a month in weird stuff. And in places where ambiguity… where also the customer on both sides has to read a spreadsheet that's complicated versus like here's the number that came in and here is the cut… over. I think simplicity would have helped a lot in that sense.

And then other simplicity things, I think just figuring out how to set expectations of timeline. Even though we didn't work for those people, said it on the phone, in the conversations of like, hey, we might get a campaign locked in that’s going to be out this far. But then they get in their own world. Like, where's the stuff?

And I'm like, no, we already told you this. And so, one outline. Here's how this works, one the phone. Before you email me any questions, reread this. This is the rules of engagement and how it works. But that I would say once it worked and had momentum, changing the relationships from I work for you to we work together changed the whole dynamic of it versus, you know, just collecting a flat fee.

Jason: [00:16:49] Yeah. I love that of like we work together rather than you're the dog barking orders to me. And even if you don't do a performance model.

Hollis: [00:16:58] Yeah. It feels like you kind of got to do that sometimes. Cause I feel like that's how we like learned. If you worked in a restaurant going up or we… Whatever, like that’s how it was. When you’re getting paid, you just got to say yes, please, and as you wish.

Which honestly doesn't even serve the client that well. Sometimes you’re doing shit that they don’t even need to get done. They just wanted to show that they tell you to do something. But we're only going to focus on brings in dollars. It doesn't bog down either of our teams.

And that's why we switched the contract that you can leave whenever you want. You know, the psychology there was great because it was like, we're paying equally versus that, you know, walked into some long retainer and some big set up fees and things like that. Obviously you have to have some results for that to be worth it, um, for the relationship to stay.

But if you know you can deliver on it, then it's probably better to be in a, a mutual relationship where either party can leave in 30 days notice versus trying to lock in really long-term deals.

Jason: [00:17:58] Yeah, exactly. Well, awesome. Well, this is amazing, Hollis. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience listening in?

Hollis: [00:18:05] Listen, I mean, it's funny just because it's a friend of mine that just got off a call with one of our members who, who set them up on like a little dinner in the same town. And I forget the book references basically it's about taking knowledge from other industries and bringing them into your own. So what I saw was great was a lot of the product companies who were here like some of them were in retail and other things. They just didn't know how to pull stuff from other areas.

There's always like these levers that you can pull from other industry practices that might not exist in a niche that you're opening that you're trying to mark it as that in. And so I was really, all we did was just start reaching into other tools that there's no way they're ever going to get to this.

So obviously we can take over this part for them and we’re not also dealing with the dynamics. So there's someone in the house already being paid to do this or anything like that. It's pretty clean that way.

But I think we just learned that from sitting in these events from people like, you know, we have some hiring stuff we've learned from guys in the hotel space, which I never would have thought to learn that until I sat into that at one of these events or whatever.

So I've never seen through blinders. Like it's good to be focused and linear, but I think there's just so many cool nuggets in different industries you can pull and bring in that we all just kind of forget to take a glance at.

Jason: [00:19:30] Awesome. Well, cool. Well, what's a website people go and check you guys out?

Hollis: [00:19:35] Just babybathwater.com.

Jason: [00:19:37] Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. If you guys enjoyed this episode, make sure you go to their website. They have really cool events. I went to the one in, in Utah. And it was really pretty amazing.

And if you guys want to really grow and scale your agency faster, what got you here is not going to get you to the next level and you need to do a number of different things. Because probably what got you to this level is from referrals and word of mouth, or maybe you selling, or maybe one salesperson.

The biggest thing that you need is systems in place in order to grow and scale faster and get to the point where you can pick and choose. If you want to do that, I want you guys to check out our agency playbook. Go to jasonswenk.com/playbook and check it out. And it might just be the thing that will get you to the next level.

So go do that now. And until next time, have a Swenk day.

Jason Yormark realized the job stability he always hoped to find behind a desk was waiting for him as an entrepreneur. That's when he decided to take the risk and founded Socialistics, a B2B social media agency. Three and a half years later his agency, based in Seattle, helps tell businesses stories in ways that not only drive audience and engagement; but more importantly, real business results. Today, he joins the podcast to talk about how you should treat your agency, the benefits of long vs. short-term contracts, and more.

3 Golden Nuggets

1. Don’t be afraid to disrupt. When Jason started thinking of ways to disrupt and help get his new agency noticed, he thought about offering clients an option that would get rid of something that they typically hate. Long-term contracts came up as something that clients don’t usually love about their experience with marketing agencies, and so he started offering monthly contracts and got good results. In time, many of his clients have opted to change from a monthly contract to a long-term contract.
2. Treat yourself like a client. A lot of agencies don’t dedicate enough time to building their brand. They get so busy with business development and clients and that it is the first thing to get pushed aside. Building your brand takes time and consistency when it comes to putting out new content, blog posts, social media, etc. Jason’s advice is to make sure that somebody in your team is responsible for treating your business as a client.
3. You can still outsource if you're doing the content. Are you a good writer, or maybe a natural in front of a mike when it comes to recording a podcast? Great! However, that doesn’t mean that you have to take care of every step of the process. Get an SEO editor or a video editor that will take on the heavy lifting. This way, you can focus on your expertise and putting that content out there.

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Don't Forget to Build Your Brand and Treat Yourself Like a Client

Jason Swenk: [00:00:00] What's up everybody? I have another amazing guest coming for you in just a second. We're going to talk about why you should treat your agency as the number one client. As well as we're going to talk about long-term or short-term contracts, the benefits, the disadvantages. We're going to argue back and forth.

This is going to be a really good episode. Now, before we get into chatting with Jason, our guest, I want you to do something. I want you to take a screenshot off your phone of listening to the podcast and upload that to Instagram and tag us because I want to thank you for listening to the show and do a big shout-out to you.

So let's go ahead and get into the episode.

All right, Jason. Welcome to the show.

Jason Yormark: [00:00:44] Thank you for having me.

Jason Swenk: [00:00:45] Yeah, man. I'm excited. So let's start fighting. No, I'm just kidding. No, tell us who you are and what do you do.

Jason Yormark: [00:00:53] My name is Jason Yormark. I'm the owner and founder of Socialistics. We are a B2B social media agency.

Jason Swenk: [00:01:01] That's awesome. And so how did you get started? How'd you fall into this crazy-ass world?

Jason Yormark: [00:01:06] Well, I thought, I mean, I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit my entire life. But, uh, I was always searching for stability in my life professionally, and I always thought that that was, you know, a nine to five or sitting behind a desk with my paycheck and my benefits. All that good stuff.

But, uh, marketing is a pretty volatile career path, I learned. And once I started to kind of see other folks experiencing the same thing I wasn't. So I didn't feel so bad about myself, you know, jumping around job to job, whether by choice or not. So that's stability I was always looking for was right in front of me all the time. Which was doing my own thing, controlling my own fate.

And I just reached a point in my life. You know, I was a little bit later for me, where I could make that leap, take that risk. And get it right. And that happened about, uh, three and a half years ago.

Jason Swenk: [00:01:52] Awesome. I love it. Well, let's talk about long-term contracts and short-term contracts. Tell us kind of how you started, where you're at now and what have you seen work?

Because, you know, I have my own point of view and we'll see is we come together. If not, that's good. That's probably… that builds interests.

Jason Yormark: [00:02:10] I've always been hesitant to admitting this to my other agency, friends. But, and this is going to be a little bit cringy, but, uh, we predominantly up to this point, we've done month to month contracts.

And for me, it was a couple of things out of the gate. Number one, everybody's got a different agency story in terms of how they start and what they have to work with. I, you know, I had nothing, you know, I had to. And a lot of folks, I'm not the only one, a lot of folks, you know, start with nothing. You have to scrap and you have to get, you know, some clients up in the beginning and kind of make some decisions that maybe you otherwise wouldn't later on. But, you know, I just wanted to disrupt, I was always fascinated by companies like Uber, who just disrupted transportation. All they did was create this awesome piece of technology to connect drivers and, and people that need rides.

And all, you know, I can imagine them sitting in a room and thinking like, what, what are the things that people hate about this? And I thought about that from an agency perspective. Like, what do clients really dislike about what they experience with agencies? And I thought, you know, long-term contracts and I knew this would be a way to disrupt.

And I knew it would wait to create some momentum. I knew there'd be some risks with it. You know, the value of an agency is obviously can be dictated by that. But at the time I was like, I didn't care about that point. I just wanted to create something that would allow me to never sit in a car for two and a half hours, three hours every day and sitting behind a desk.

I just wanted to create something with some momentum. So we launched with month to month, and it definitely created some instant momentum for us. We were able to maybe win some, some projects that we otherwise maybe wouldn't get. And my theory, my philosophy with it has always been a couple of things.

Number one, if you do great work, if you treat clients well, if you deliver results, they're going to stick with you. And if they can't, it's going to be for reasons out of your control. And the pandemic was a perfect example, right? Some clients, look, I don't want to be the reason why an agency has to let go of some of their employees.

Like, if they have to press pause on something, then I'm okay with that. So it really worked for us out of the gate to kind of create the momentum that we needed to build a foundation to stick. And to be able to have a business that I could have for the rest of my life. So it worked in the beginning.

Jason Swenk: [00:04:11] I see that point and I really do agree with it because at the end of the day, like, think about it this way. Selling agency services is very different than like coaching someone, right?

So a lot of times when I'm actually going to someone and saying like, well, you got pretty big goals, right? Like over the next year, it's going to take us awhile in order to accomplish that. Because I'm always looking, like I want to be what I call the chasee or the, I want to be the one getting chased, right?

Rather than pushing sales, I want them to be pulling me towards you. And a lot of times what I'll do, and agencies can do this as well. Going, all right, well, we want to make sure you're the right fit for us. And for what you need to do, we believe it's going to take a long time to do, a year. We want to see your commitment level in order to do it.

And so that's why I've always talked about doing longer term, and then it's more predictable, right? But I also agree with you. You know, it's easier to sell something that's out. Because it's less risky, right? You can make a decision. All right, I blow a month, two months here. Okay. But like you were saying, if you deliver amazing work, they're not going to want to leave.

And then if they get in a situation like we just went through with COVID, right? Let's say you're going after the restaurant industry. The whole industry was shut down for months. Are you really going to stick it to them because you have a contract? No, you're going to let them out.

At the end of the day, it's kind of like. You're just trying to figure out, do you really have that commitment level to me? Because I have a commitment level to you and I need to know that. That's the biggest thing I look for.

Jason Yormark: [00:05:54] Yeah. And for us, I just feel like. We're growing, you know what? Even at the time, it's like, look, if somebody doesn't want to pay you, they're not going to pay you.

Like, even, even the best contract language in the world doesn't mean you're going to see that money. And like, you know, in the beginning, especially the first year, like where are we really in a position where we're going to hire somebody, a lawyer and go to court? I’m like, no. If somebody doesn't want to pay you, they're not going to pay you.

And I think in the entire history of our business, one client didn't pay, uh, an invoice. I, you know, I tried going after it and it, we didn't get it. So at the end of the day, it's not, it's just semantics almost. Because, again, if you do great work, they're going to stick with you. And if they can't, then they're probably, they weren't a good fit to begin with.

We've had plenty of clients that would come into a relationship with us and I vetted them out the best I could. I think they've got good potential, but they get in and either they treat my team like crap or they weren't ready. And we didn't know that. And there w it wasn't a good fit. I'd rather grow a scalable business with the clients that makes sense for us then just trying to trap people into long-term contracts. Because even if they do sign a long-term contract and they're not a good fit, I'm just the kind of guy that's going to be like, look, this isn't working and we're going to go our separate ways anyway.

So it really hasn't impacted our agency not having that. And certainly, you know, it's evolved for us, you know. Now we, my, it was funny, an interesting story. My, my team came to me and they were a little bit frustrated because some clients left because they weren't a good fit. And they said, well, what if we, you know, we think maybe we need to reconsider this.

We kind of had a back and forth with the team. And ultimately what we decided is why don't we just create options, right? Let's give them the option of, okay, here's, here's your month-to-month price. And here's a long-term contract price discounted.

It's your choice. We give the client the choice. What do you care about most? And a lot of what's happening a lot is some of them will take us up on the month, a month. And then after a couple of months, oh, these guys are awesome, actually deliver results. I like these guys. Hey, could we switch to a long-term contract? And then we kind of move into that.

So we give them the option. So that has really actually worked really well for us. And now our balance of clients is shifting. Whereas like, you know, a hundred percent of them are month to month. Now that those numbers are changing. It's becoming like 70/30. I expect it to be half and half, which is good for us because, you know, I want an exit strategy.

I'm not ready yet. I'm a couple of years away, but I know by the time I'm ready for that. I think that a good percentage of our clients will be long-term contracts.

Jason Swenk: [00:08:18] We’ll get you there quicker than you think. Or so you have the option. I mean, it's, it's kind of hard to interview, cause I know so much already I'm being in the mastermind.

But that's a great point, Jason, too, of what you were saying about we give the option. Because at the end of the day, you got to think about how can I remove friction from them, making a decision? And then whatever, if, if they're like, hey, I still don't trust you yet. That's kind of why, you know, like in the mastermind and the playbook, we always talk about the offering ladder. Do the foot in the door, then a project.

Show them value, and then they're going to want that retainer, but I like how you have, hey, if you want short-term contract. It's kind of like a SAS model, if you think about it, like on a technology, it's like, it's this, if you pay month to month, it's this. If you pay, you know, if you commit to a year… And I like to hear that a lot of clients are going to that, because that was going to be my next question for you.

For people listening, going well, do you have an exit strategy? Because I know as a buyer of agencies, that's one of the things we look at. Because we need that predictability.

Jason Yormark: [00:09:31] Well, plus, I mean, for me it was, I felt like, well, if they look at the history, if they see. Because honestly I could go back to a good percentage of our clients right now and say, hey, you know, I want, uh, for the, you know, I want to kind of solidify our agency a bit, build the valuation up. You've been on month to month for a year or two. You okay with just sliding into a year-long contract? Most of them are going to say yes.

So I think that it's just building those foundational clients over time. I'm not worried whatsoever that when I start thinking seriously about an exit strategy, that I'll be able to transition a good percentage of the ones that we have. And this new approach that we're taking, you know, we'll get there. But as a, as a young hungry… If you're just starting out and you don't have anything, that's a great way to disrupt because it eliminates a lot of the barriers to saying yes.

And what's interesting is it's almost kind of like a foot-in-the-door offer by itself. Because the whole idea of in my opinion, the foot-in-the-door is to get them to say yes, more easily. Like the commitment’s lower, they get a taste of who you are.

And that month a month approach… I mean the first month is strategy. So they're in essence getting a foot-in-the-door offer in some capacity. But ultimately I'm just trying to get them to yes more easily and more quickly.

Jason Swenk: [00:10:39] Yeah, I love it. Well, I love that strategy and there's so much to take away. So if you guys are listening, we'd love to know your comments on that. You know, because I think all of you should do that offer if, uh, if you're charging month to month now. See about giving them the option at a, I wouldn't say at a discount, I would just say, we're going to charge you more if you're on month a month, right?

Jason Yormark: [00:11:00] Exactly.

Jason Swenk: [00:11:01] Let's change, focus a little. Because I feel a lot of agencies don't dedicate enough time to building their own brand, their own marketing, treating themselves as a client. So what have you found working for yourself?

Jason Yormark: [00:11:14] Yeah. So I, you know, it was interesting. Every agency it starts out and like, you're just, you're so busy with like business development and selling and getting clients.

It's, the first thing to get pushed to the side is your own stuff. And it's very easy to do and most do that. And we did, to a certain extent, we didn't take it serious. We just kind of dabbled, oh we'll put a blog post out. Then, you know, a month later, oh, we probably need to put another blog post out. And it just doesn't work.

I found that. You know, we were… as a startup, I didn't have a tremendous amount of money to just throw out stuff. And I knew I had the luxury of creating a runway. I created the brand when I had another job. You know, I, I knew that it was going to take a couple of years for the name and our website to permeate on the web and kind of start to get some organic reach.

That takes time, you know, it just takes a long time for that to happen. And I just consistently made a commitment to putting know blog posts out and putting content out and putting social media content out. And it gets frustrating because it's like, it's the sum of all that effort over time that really eventually gets you to a good place.

Then, now we're three and a half years in or so, and we're getting about 20 to 30, you know, inbound, organic leads. Just from people searching. And that doesn't happen overnight. You have to treat yourself like a client. You have to prioritize. And the, the minute that we realized that, you know.

I just, you know, I got someone on my team, Socialistics is their client just like anybody else. The accountabilities are there, the expectations are there. We don't let it slide no matter how busy that we get. We do not, you know, we just don't move away from what we need to commit to.

And now that consists of, you know, weekly blog posts, right now, bi-weekly podcast episodes. Certainly social media every day. But it's just, it's just the sum and the consistency of that. Or, I mean, yes, it's got to be strategic and you need to pick keywords and phrases and work that in and, and be smart. But it's just that consistency that you have to kind of stick with it.

And the best advice I can give is, you know, if it's just you, then it's gotta be you. But when you start to build a team, make sure that somebody is responsible and accountability is around your business, as a client.

That's the best thing that you can do if you're serious about, you know, building a pipeline for yourself that doesn't require you shoveling money on paid ads all of the time.

Jason Swenk: [00:13:34] Yeah, I look at it as if it's just you or you're going all right, Jason and Jason. Which, uh, we'll call it the J&J show, I guess. Then we’ll be like, all right, that's all good, but I'm already too damn busy or anything.

And I always go back to my motto. If you're saying you're too busy, you're not charging enough. It's the leading indicator for most challenges. If you can charge enough, then you can start hiring the right people. And most of the time we hire the wrong people. I want you guys to start thinking about you in the center and thinking about all the stuff you do, right now.

The $10 tasks, the $100 tasks, the really cheap tasks. And think about who can you hire to do that stuff, to get some stuff off. And do only like, you know, Jason's talking about like he's doing content development. He can only create that if he's doing the podcast, right?

That's what he should be doing and that's what I want all of you to focus on. Because it has to be like three pillars, inbound, outbound, strategic partnership for building a sales system or a lead generation system for your agency. So hopefully you guys get that.

Jason, this has all been amazing. And I actually agree with you. I was hoping we would disagree. So I guess I hooked people in on the intro, but, um, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience?

Jason Yormark: [00:14:58] You know, just based on what we talked about and you kind of touched on it just now. You know, just because when you're doing the content, that doesn't mean that you can't outsource, whether it's somebody internally or whether you hire somebody.

And a perfect example of that is like the podcast, which I love doing podcasts. It's easy. It's easier to me, right? You’re just getting in front of a microphone and blab for 20 to 30 minutes with somebody. Not to mention it's awesome to just to meet other people in that way.

But I don't do the editing. Like I don't do the editing. I don't, you know, I don't want to do any of that technical stuff. I did it at first just to kind of get a feel for it. But you know, a couple hundred bucks a month. There's plenty of resources out there that'll take on all the heavy lifting. So literally all you have to do is put the microphone in front of your face. Talk for 20 minutes, send it to somebody else they'll edit it. They'll publish it.

It's fantastic. You know, it's a really low investment in time. The same thing with blogs. Like if you're a great writer, then write it, then send it to somebody to edit and SEO optimize it and publish it on your website. Like don't spend your time doing all of those extra things that make it feel too heavy.

Like you can outsource a lot of that and really just focus on your expertise and putting it out there. And the minute that we kind of got those systems in place, it becomes a repeatable process and we're able to make it work. Every day, every week.

And it's worked really well.

Jason Swenk: [00:16:07] What's a website people can go check the agency out? And what's the podcast name that they can search to go, uh, listen?

Jason Yormark: [00:16:13] Yeah. Well, our name's unique, so just search for Socialistics. But you can find us at socialistics.com. The podcast is called Socialistics, social media agency stories. And, uh, you know, just type in the name, you'll find us.

Jason Swenk: [00:16:26] Awesome. Well, go check that out. And if you guys enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to do me a favor.

We haven't asked for going to iTunes or whatever platform you have and review it. And then also, if you want to be surrounded by other amazing people, I want to invite you guys to go to our free Facebook group called the Digital Agency Owner Insiders. You can go to jasonswenk.com/insider. So that should direct you right there as you a couple of questions and only agency owners are in there.

So go do that. And until next time, have a Swenk day.

Have you made hiring mistakes that affected your agency's growth? How long did it take you to course correct before it was too late? Wrong hires can become a cancer inside your agency that leaves you exhausted and overworked. Today’s guest started her agency as a very small operation and turned to friends when it came to hiring. However, she soon realized that friendships don’t always translate to the best work relationships. She was micromanaging, losing money, and losing confidence in her ability as a leader. In a bold move, she took control of the situation by shutting down her agency at the end of the year. She decided to create new rules, enforce them, and see who really remained after the agency’s direction was made clear. Tune in to learn she saved her agency, gained confidence as a leader, and built the team she needed.

Danielle Reid is the owner of DR and Associates, a creative agency specializing in communications, diversity, and multicultural marketing. They do brand and project development, and growth campaigns for start-ups and helps all size business and achieve results through strategies that connect while using innovation and expertise.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Rapid growth and getting to 7-figures in four years.
• Why you should always ask for a budget.
• Pulling the brakes to correct hiring mistakes.

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The Biggest Challenge with Getting to 7-Figures in Four Year

Danielle worked for a Big 6 agency as a senior manager for a long time and loved being the person pulled into projects that needed saving. However, she craved new challenges and eventually got bored. She left agency life to work for the Navy, a new and exciting challenge that validated her leadership talents. She realized she was the expert in the room, which fueled her motivation to one day own her own agency. After a brief stint at a corporate job she realized it was the right time to become a business owner, so she started her agency, DR & Associates.

Looking back, the growth they’ve seen since 2019 has been amazing, hitting over 7 figures in just four years. However, despite the rapid rise, pricing was the first big obstacle she struggled with. Agency owners often see low pricing as a strategy to get started and build a client list. Like many before her, Danielle wasn’t thinking about her profit margin. She figured she’d just charge low prices to have a competitive advantage.

How did she measure success? It was all about making an impact on companies she believed in. Many businesses couldn’t afford a $25,000 retainer but had great potential for growth. This approach is often driven by a desire to attract clients and gain experience in the field. However there are risks associated with low pricing. It’s important to consider the implications of this strategy and its long-term effects on the agency's growth and profitability.

A Crucial Turnaround: Why You Should Always Ask for The Budget

The first moment that represented a crucial turnaround for Danielle was her first 6-figure contract. A non-profit client needed help with social media strategy and ended up hiring her agency. She was stunned to find their budget was $180,000 but was glad to have asked for a budget beforehand. This contract dwarfed her previous record of  $4,000 so it was a huge step in the right direction.

This enormous deal affirmed her value while fueling accelerated growth. Still, Danielle doesn't apply a one-size markup. Especially with budget-limited nonprofits, proposals embody custom assessments of needs, goals, and ability to pay. Her agency balances mission and margins through context-based pricing.

Pulling the Brakes to Correct Past Hiring Mistakes

As she went through expenses at the end of last year, Danielle had the dreadful realization that she had been scammed by some employees, considering how much they cost and how little value they provided in return. This brought about a moment of radical changes, as she fired some of her team last December to figure out how to move forward in 2023.

We've all been warned about the difficulties of hiring friends. In her experience, these friends turned out to be less productive than expected. Unfortunately, it came to a point where Danielle had to babysit her employees, having to do more direction of everyone else’s duties than her own work. So she put certain parameters up, knowing these employees wouldn’t choose to return after the rules were enforced.

It was a tough lesson but it had to be done, especially considering how much money she’d lost while still having to do the work herself. She had to realize that not everybody would enter a working relationship with a friend and know how to separate the boss from the friend. Having employees who are unwilling to follow your lead will leave you exhausted and unhappy. Your agency will need direction to truly succeed and if you’re being unclear about that direction or have a team who refuses to follow it, you won’t get to where you want to be.

Since this experience, Danielle has taken full control of her leadership and reassessed her hiring decisions to prioritize the agency’s overall direction and the impact she wants to make.

Embrace the Benefits of Collaboration

Danielle encourages agency owners to not be afraid of collaboration. We often miss out on good opportunities that could help elevate and grow our businesses to new levels. Given the chance, the right collaboration could help take your agency to a Big 6 level. However, the competition mentality ruins those chances, as every opportunity for collaboration is also seen as competition. This is an example of thinking too small and failing to see the power of collaboration to further build your brand.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners who can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Are you struggling to compete with other agencies in your niche? Are you tired of losing new business to your competition? You can stand out if you learn how to disrupt status quo. You just need to get a little scrappy and start thinking outside-of-the-box.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• Why your agency needs to think differently.
• #1 way to achieve agency growth fast!
• How data can close more agency new business.

Today, I talked with Jay Samit — serial entrepreneur, former VP of Sony, Vice Chairman of Deloitte, and best selling author. Oh! And he grew an agency from 0 in revenue to $200 million is 18 months. He's basically a superstar. And Jay's new book "Disrupt You! Master Personal Transformation, Seize Opportunity, and Thrive in the Era of Endless Innovation" is all about how you can create agency growth by being a little different.

Why Your Agency Needs to Think Differently

Jay talked about his experience coming into a marketing agency that had $0 in revenue and transforming it into a $200 million opportunity. How? He pivoted. The agency had a great idea, but they didn't know how to execute it properly. They had the framework of value exchange merchandising but didn't know what to do with it.

Jay's idea was to offering value exchange merchandise for brands around the world. So for example, instead of paying for your in-game app currency, you could just watch an ad instead. Here's the crazy part. Within one year, the agency was charging advertisers $1,000 CPM!

Maybe your agency has a great idea. And, maybe you're awesome at what you do. But, if you're not succeeding, it may be time to pivot. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Think about how you can apply those same services and skills to a broader or more nuanced user base.

How can you utilize what you already have in a different way?

No way to do things differently? Try adding some unique services that set you apart!

The Best Way to Achieve Agency Growth Fast!

I've talked about niching in the past, but what about niching into an unknown space? If you can find a way to be the only agency offering services to a particular group of people, you're in the golden zone. Jay told a story about an agency owner going from homeless to $70k in his first month — and $1 million by the end of his first year.

How did he do it? He found a market no one else was serving. Sure, niching can be a great way to get hyper-specialized. But, if you can offer services to a market no one is paying attention to, you'll have a huge advantage.

Here's a tip... Research a couple niches you're passionate about and see if anyone else is serving them. Start searching for those unexplored opportunities. You never know what you might find.

How Data Can Close More New Business

Are you having trouble pitching? Can you get your foot-in-the-door, but you seem to have issues closing? Try putting data to work. You can tell a prospect anything. But, if you can show them substance, they're going to be interested.

You may have a killer strategy and a great idea that will help that prospect rake in customers. But if you can back it up with solid data, you're more likely to win the pitch.

Data doesn't lie. Think you can triple their ROI on Facebook? I believe you, but your prospects need more than just your word on it. Explain the plan, then show them how you can do it by sharing a case story and reporting data that backs up your claim.

The better the data, the better your chances.

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Productivity Funnel: How I Find Time to Focus On Running My Agency?

Do you have a hard time with your productivity within your agency? No matter what level you are on, it is easy to get distracted from the tasks you should be focusing on. This is why a productivity funnel can be really beneficial to your agency.

Q: How Do I Find Time to Focus On Running My Business vs. Being In The Business?

Finding time to focus on running your business while getting bogged down by the business can be rough. And distractions are so easily found especially when you feel under pressure.

We are typically so busy being reactive that we get derailed by smaller tasks and lose sight of our goals.

What does that mean? If you’re spending time on low impact, low priority tasks you are unable to focus on your biggest and best opportunities for growth.

So here’s what you should be doing... Decide what gets you closer to your goals then backfill with the lower impact activities.

Let Me Help

If you have more questions about how you can get through hard times in your agency, I can help. Through my many years of experience, I can share advice on topics including how to start an agency from scratch to getting through any economic recession.

You can check out all my tips, tricks and everything you need to know in my blogs. I have covered a wide variety of topics as well as answering your questions in more from my Ask Swenk series.

Are videos more your thing? I've got what you need. You can check out my AskSwenk series where I take questions from you and more of my videos over on my YouTube channel for advice from myself and other agency experts.

Are you looking for advice on improving your agency's growth strategy? Are the systems you have in place just not working for you and feeling like you've hit a plateau in your business growth?

Why Buying or Selling A Digital Agency is EASIER Than You Think.

In this episode we cover:

• Why buying an agency isn’t as expensive or as hard as you’d think.
• How rolling-in another agency can be a killer agency growth strategy.
• 5 ways to improve your digital agency’s valuation to be acquired.
• What to look at if you’re looking to acquire another agency.

Today’s guest, Eric Keiles was doing inbound before inbound was even a thing. Eric and his partner founded Square 2 Marketing in 2003 with the intention of helping brands revamp their old-school marketing to the way people are buying in the new millennium. In 2009, they partnered with Hubspot and took their business to a new level.

I met Eric at Hubspot’s 2015 Inbound Conference and quickly learned he is pretty serious about making a plan and sticking to it. He has one major B.H.A.G. (big, hairy, audacious goal) and that is for Square 2 to be the #1 inbound agency. They’ve been growing organically for a few years at 30%+ but that just wasn’t aggressive enough... so they accelerated it with a layer of acquisitions. Actually, 3 acquisitions in just 18 months with 2 more in the pipeline.

Why would you BUY another Marketing agency… or several?

Eric says there are two reasons this is Square 2’s agency growth strategy. They’re looking to either acquire an agency with a specialization they don’t have (like social media or an agency that works on a different platform) or to acquire another inbound agency in order to benefit from economies of scale. Size doesn’t matter - 4 people or 20 - stability and profitability are key.

It doesn't take a huge pile of cash to acquire another agency.

Eric says it really doesn’t. There is, of course, an initial layout of cash on the front end of the deal but his team feels pretty strongly about keeping the existing leadership in place and structuring an attainable earn-out for them. They’ve found this situation to be a win-win. Square 2 sees the growth and profitability they’re seeking while the agency leader of the acquired firm eliminates the stresses of ownership and gets to focus on an area of the business they’re passionate about while hitting earn-out goals.

Use these to improve your agency valuation and as a guideline for vetting one you’re looking to acquire.

1. Systems & Processes that Prevent Bottlenecking

A great target for a potential merger is an agency that has great systems and processes in place. Everything cannot revolve around the owner. Eric says it’s a major deal breaker if you’re the only “go-to” person. It’s important to have established systems and processes in place so the business can run without you. I say, “systems outperform talent every time.”

2. Long Term Client Relationships

When someone is looking at buying you, they are looking at what kind of profit they can generate in the near future. As Eric and his team are looking at agencies to acquire, they’re looking at ones that have retainer clients or long-term (12-18 month) project, clients. Shorter-term projects or one-and-done clients don’t make a viable agency. A mix of both is OK too, but they find that agencies that are 100% project-based are not viable. A buyer a well-established business with predictable revenue.

3. Common Personalities and Culture

It’s more than just buying a business, it’s marrying two entities: meshing teams, workflow, ideas… so it’s important the owners have the same core beliefs and the culture of the offices will gel. There’s success where there’s synergy. The guys at Square 2 Marketing look for like-minded individuals to go into business with, so before going too far into a merger they like to hang out together.

4. Healthy Margins Without Underpricing or Over Servicing

You can have amazing clients and top talent on your team, but if you don’t have positive profit margins then you’re too risky to merge with. A lot of agencies want so badly to keep their clients happy they will over service without tracking the time. Or, they just want to win the deal so badly, they will undercharge. Sounds like a no-brainer, but agency profit margins aren’t usually calculated accurately. Time tracking and scoping are huge. Eric says when he’s looking at an agency to buy he not only looks at an hourly rate but also excessive rounds of revisions and out-of-scope requests. An agency with healthy (and accurately accounted) margins has a much higher value than one that only thinks they do.

5. A Variety of Different Sized Accounts

It’s like the old adage goes, “don’t have all your eggs in one basket.” The same is true for agency clients. It’s not good to have just 1 key account. Eric says he categorizes clients in 3 ways: Acorns (have the ability to grow), Cornerstone (solid, long term), and Shit Box (tons of work, low profit, pain in the ass). He places a higher value on agencies that have plenty of Acorns and Cornerstones, with minimal or no Shit Boxes.

It’s the owner’s job to be the agency’s steward to the future, not involved to be in everyday operations. Here’s a great post about the 5 roles of an agency owner. Guess what? Working IN the business isn’t one of them :)

Tips to Grow Your Digital Marketing Agency from the Agency Trenches

Best Advice Ever Received for Building your Digital Agency:

Fire the shit box accounts. At a time of struggle and despair, Eric was advised by a mentor to review and fire all the accounts that were a drain on hours and resources with little to zero profit margin. He listened and he got rid of ALL SIX… He says it was the best advice he’s ever received and saw an improvement by adding this to his agency growth strategy.

Best Business Building Tip for Building your Digital Agency: 

Eric’s answer is three-fold… (1.) Set aside time that is dedicated to focusing on growing your business. For Square 2, Eric and his partner have a standing 90 minute Monday morning meeting that is non-negotiable. (2.) Get involved in events and conferences that are focused on learning and new ideas. Eric says this forces them to clear their schedule and get their heads wrapped around leadership, and only leadership. (3.) Peer to peer coaching is great for bouncing ideas off someone who’s been there and done it.

Is My Agency Mastermind Right for You?

Looking to improve your business and enhance your agency growth strategy? I have led a lot of successful Agency Mastermind groups over the past couple of years. There are a few more spots to fill in the upcoming group. We meet every two weeks so it’s not a huge time commitment yet the benefits are immeasurable. You can read more details here and if you’re interested there is a brief application process. You’ll fill out a quick form and then I’ll let you know if the group is a good fit for you.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training

What are your goals for your agency this new year? Which new heights are you hoping to reach and what needs to change in order for you to get there? As we step into a new year, agency owners start setting ambitious targets. But achieving these goals requires more than just wishful thinking—it demands a clear understanding of three critical elements: where you want to go, who you need on your team to get there, and perhaps most importantly, how you need to evolve as a leader.

Today, we're joined by a special guest who has witnessed countless agency journeys firsthand. As a key member of the Jason Swenk team, she's become a trusted companion to our mastermind members, guiding them through their growth challenges and celebrating their victories. Her unique perspective comes from years of observing what makes agencies thrive, understanding their common hurdles, and helping create environments where both businesses and people flourish. Tune in for an engaging conversation about teamwork, growth, and the importance of a community that can help you evolve as a leader.

Stacey Green is the Director of Happiness for the Jason Swenk and Agency Mastery team. After ten years working side to side with Jason, she’s on the show for the first time to share the insights into her unique role, which encompasses client success, event planning, and keeping the team organized amidst the chaos. As she celebrates her 10-year anniversary with the team, Stacey reflects on the evolution of her position and talks about some of the changes she’s seen over the years. Listeners will gain a behind-the-scenes look at how she ensures the smooth operation of the podcast and the agency's mastermind calls.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• 10 years of shaping agency success.

• Identifying your agency domino.

• The mastermind advantage. 

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

How a Director of Happiness Shapes Agency Success

As Director of Happiness at the Agency Mastery and Jason Swenk Team, Stacey has spent the last decade wearing many hats. This unique title, crafted collaboratively with Jason, encompasses everything from ensuring client success and orchestrating events to keeping Jason focused :)

Through her regular interactions with mastermind members, Stacey has gained a profound insight into the agency landscape: while the industry constantly evolves, the fundamental challenges agency owners face—and their approaches to solving them—remain remarkably consistent. The industry, however, is rather mercurial in its constant change and only those willing to adapt will thrive.

The mastermind program itself reflects this philosophy of adaptation. When Stacey first joined, the membership process was simply transactional—pay the fee and you're in. However, experience taught us that cultural fit is crucial for the community's success. This realization led to the development of a more sophisticated vetting process, ensuring new members align with the group's goals, ethics, and lifestyle values. The result has been the creation of a more cohesive and effective community of agency owners who truly support each other's growth.

The Agency Domino: Identifying Your Agency's Critical Success Factor

Towards the end of the year, Jason challenged his mastermind members to identify their critical "domino"—that singular element that, when properly aligned, sets everything else in motion for their agency's success. This exercise isn't just theoretical; it's born from real-world experience, as Jason and his team face many of the same challenges they help other agencies overcome.

Take marketing talent, for instance. Over the past two years, the team has struggled with finding and retaining the right marketing person, cycling through several mismatched hires. Yet this challenge has offered valuable lessons, helping Jason and Stacey better understand the essential qualities they need in their ideal candidate.

As we enter the new year, agency owners should approach their goal-setting with three crucial questions: Where do you want your agency to go? Who do you need to hire to get there? And perhaps most importantly, who do you need to become as a leader? This final question is critical because an agency can only grow as far as its leader's capabilities. Personal growth isn't just beneficial—it's essential for pushing your agency to new heights.

The Mastermind Advantage: Accelerating Agency Growth Through Collective Wisdom

While one-on-one coaching can be valuable, many business owners eventually hit a ceiling in their growth—a point where individual guidance no longer provides the momentum needed to reach new heights. This is why Jason shifted away from traditional one-on-one coaching toward the more dynamic approach of mastermind groups.

Unlike the linear relationship between coach and client, masterminds create an ecosystem of shared experiences and diverse perspectives. Agency owners learn not just from a single mentor, but from peers who are actively tackling similar challenges from different angles. This multiplicity of viewpoints often reveals solutions and opportunities that might never surface in traditional coaching.

As we enter the new year, consider how you're approaching your agency's growth. If past coaching experiences haven't delivered the results you sought, a mastermind group might offer the fresh perspective you need. As Stacey emphasizes, what brought your agency to its current level won't necessarily propel it to the next. Sometimes, the key to breaking through plateaus lies in embracing new approaches to learning and growth. Success in the agency landscape demands constant evolution and the willingness to learn from others.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

4 Steps to Capturing Leads... Snagging Them Hook, Line and Sinker

If your biggest issue right now within your agency is capturing leads, especially from big clients, then you are probably going about it the wrong way.

There’s a big difference between generating leads and capturing leads… and it’s a lot like fishing. Think about the term “fishing” for a moment. Do you actually want to “go fishing” or do you really want to “go catching”? To be successful, it’s the latter.

You can go fishing by dropping a pole in a random location with random bait and you might get lucky, but usually you just spend tons of time and come up empty. BUT, if you have some strategy in place: the right location, the right bait and the right tools you will have greater chances for success.

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1. Know WHO you’re fishing for:

Be very specific on who your ideal client is. You know who you can help, so don’t be afraid of reaching out to that very particular target. For example, when you start out fishing you already know what type of fish you’re going out for, like red snapper or blue marlin. Be THAT specific in your business.

2. Know WHERE the fish are:

Red snapper are near the reef at the bottom of the sea while blue marlin are at the weed line and found while trolling. Learn where your fish are congregating and capture them there. Is it Facebook, Linkedin? Do they use specific technology. “Fish where the fish are biting!”

3. Know WHAT bait attract your fish:

When you’re fishing, it might be lures or live bait, which could be worms, crickets or even other fish. In business, your bait is your lead magnet. What is something of value that you can provide for free that solves a problem or fills a need your prospects have? Prove you are valuable right away by giving them something they love in exchange for their contact information and they’ll be hooked!

4. Know WHEN to pull the line in:

You can be in the right place and bait the right fish but you can still lose the catch if you try reeling in the line too soon. Avoid having your prospects jump the line by using a nurture campaign that educates while building a relationship of trust and establishing your authority.

In fishing and in business, if you don’t know the who, where, what and when of the catch you’re going after you’ll end up unprepared and empty-handed.

How to Improve

So I have shared the best ways of capturing leads for your agency but don't just stop there. To improve your agency, you should take a step back and really look struggles you need to focus on to improve your business. I have all you need to get through these obstacles.

I have advice on topics from gaining agency exposure in the news, how to build authority for your agency, or even ways to use facebook marketing strategies to expand your brand awareness. If growth is your focus, I've discussed the four phases of growth within your agency and how website issues could be holding your business back from reaching your potential.

You can learn more about my life and my experience as well as lots of tips, tricks, and insights by reading my blogs that cover a wide variety of topics.

If videos are more your thing, don’t worry, i’ve got you covered! You can check out more from my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my YouTube channel. There you will find advice from me and other agency experts.

Do you feel like growing and scaling is always a struggle? Need to differentiate yourself from other agencies? Finding success as an agency owner isn't easy. But with the right mindset, you can hit the 8-figure mark and even power through an eventual agency acquisition. Whether you want to grow your agency fast or plan on growing it to sell, you need to hear from the one and only Mitch Joel, who's done it all.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• 3 steps to an 8-figure agency.
• How to power through an agency acquisition.
• #1 way to differentiate your agency.

Today, I talked with Mitch Joel, co-founder of Mirum and founder of Six Pixels Group. Joel is a marketing superstar. He was one of Canada's Top 40 under 40, does keynotes for top brands, and has a best-selling book, Six Pixels of Separation. Mitch also sold his agency Mirum to WPP (a.k.a the world's largest ad agency). And he's on the show to talk about how he was able to grow, sell, and move on from his agency.

3 Steps to an 8-Figure Agency

For many agencies, the 8-figure mark is the "we made it!" moment. But how do you get there? Honestly, everyone's path is a little different. That being said, here are 3 universal steps you'll probably need to make.

1. Take on the right partner: There are two things that make a partner great. They need to have the same goals, and they need to compliment your weaknesses. If you're a master salesperson and you're looking for an agency partner, don't look for a salesperson. Find someone who is amazing at the things you're really bad at. Otherwise, you may both end up trying to play to the same tune. And that can lead to a nasty breakup.
   

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2. Get a marquee client: Landing your first big client can completely reshape your agency. You can go from pennies to dollars overnight. It only takes on business with a few friends to grow your agency fast. There's a misconception that you have to have tons of clients to grow. That's not true. You just need a couple of good ones. And they don't even have to big per se! But they do need to be able to pay your agency what you're worth.
   

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3. Have the right philosophy: You need to be scale-focused. What does that mean? It means that your processes need to be capable of handling scale. Think about your ability to support large-scale projects with big clients. If you feel like your foundation is weak, you need to build it up before you take on any big clients. Don't just chase big fish without a big hook. You'll get pulled overboard.

How to Power Through An Agency Acquisition

There's another way to "make it" without hitting 8-figures. Getting your agency acquired is the dream for many of you. It happened to me, and it happened to Mitch. But what do you do when it actually happens?

Your first instinct may be to go out and spend the cash. Don't do that! You have to wait until the acquisition is 100% finalized before you celebrate. The entire process will take a while. And you need to be focused on continuing to grow your agency AND focusing on your new "biggest client" — the company acquiring your agency.

Force yourself to wait to celebrate. Afterward, you have to get used to not calling the shots. It's tough. You can always do what I did; go start a podcast. It gives you back some of the control you're used to. Plus, you get to help people out. It's a win-win!

#1 Way to Differentiate Your Agency

Are you tired of being a "me too" agency? Then change your philosophy. STOP trying to be like your competition and you do you.

Don't be like everyone else, but instead figure where you stand on these four things that set  you apart from every other agency:

1. Trust
2. Empathy
3. Chemistry
4. Authority

How can you create a differentiate using these four pillars to stand apart? First, create trust with your clients by showing tons of empathy. Develop amazing internal chemistry that is evident in the way you carry out your core values. And display the level of authority that conveys domination in your area of expertise. Then, use your messaging (website, social posts, etc.) to display this differentiation to your prospects.

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For a limited time, Gusto is offering a deal to Smart Agency Master Class listeners. Check out Gusto.com/agency for 3-months FREE once you run your first payroll with them.

Not sure why you're stuck trying to scale your agency? Growth vs Scaling? What's the difference? There are four main reasons some agencies never scale. Today’s guest has accumulated nearly 15 years of experience in the agency business and shares how he stays focused in order to scale. He also shares lessons that helped him get through difficult and why is usually the agency owners standing in their own way of scaling.

Wayne Mullins is the founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, a boutique agency with 14 years of experience. The agency's design approach places a lot of emphasis on content and understanding the audience to convey an effective message. Their core value is that results should never be compromised for the sake of "good" design.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Why your agency needs a north star to stay focused.
• The difference between scaling vs. growth.
• How agency owners sabotage their growth by not adapting.

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Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease of their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

Why You Need a North Star 

Don't let the name fool you; Ugly Mug represents the agency's philosophy of prioritizing results. It originates from a quote by David Ogilvy, where he said “I rather you show me an ad that’s ugly and effective over one that is beautiful but isn’t." This quote became Wayne's north star, keeping him from getting sidetracked by awards and accolades. Instead, he believes that agency owners should focus on solving clients' problems and getting results.

What's the Difference Between Scaling and Growth?

Scaling a business and growing it is often confused, with the latter becoming a buzzword. According to Wayne, scaling involves having more free time and working only in the areas you choose. However, growth leads to time constraints and doing things you hate. To scale, you need to have the right mindset, systems, and processes in place.

4 Reasons Why Some Agencies Are Not Scaling

1. The owner's mindset is the main reason why agencies fail to scale. In the beginning, Wayne's ego played a significant role, and he enjoyed being the hero who saved the day. However, he realized that he needed a clear vision of where he wanted the agency to go to communicate it to his team. That way, they could make better decisions, and he wouldn't become a hindrance to growth.
   

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2. Many agencies fall into the scale hustle trap when they hit certain levels of revenue or employee numbers, believing that they only need to work harder to get to the next level. However, the key to scaling is having the right systems and processes in place, documenting them, and trusting your team to have autonomy.
   

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3. To scale, you need to balance alignment and authority. Without autonomy, everything is controlled, and without alignment, there's chaos. Everyone must be aligned with the agency's vision, and team members must have autonomy to make decisions.
   

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4. Ideally, you want to stay around the complexity line, which indicates that you're growing. The faster you scale, the more chaos you feel, but if you pull back, you're sabotaging future growth. Feeling overwhelmed means that there's too much on your plate, and you need to adapt your processes to grow.

Wayne's philosophy is that agencies should focus on delivering results and solving clients' problems rather than just winning awards. Scaling requires the right mindset, systems, and processes, as well as a team aligned with the agency's vision and autonomy to make decisions. Don't be afraid of complexity, adapt to it, and keep growing.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Have you ever asked your team what they don't want to do anymore? What would your employees eliminate, if they could? One agency owner started asking these important questions and unlocked rapid growth by implementing their ideas and truly innovating processes. For his agency, niching down and adopting innovation as an agency value made all the difference. He discusses how he implemented those changes and the 5 big questions you need to ask your team.

Josh Webber is the co-founder of Big Red Jelly, an agency focused on digital branding, web design, and development. His team helps businesses focus on all the steps a business should complete before working on advertising and marketing.

Although his agency is five years old, Josh has been in the agency world since graduating college, working at several agencies around the country. As is often the case, his agency started as a full-service digital marketing agency. The decision to niche down came after the pandemic. This marked a point where his team started to focus on what they did best: branding. The decision led to exponential growth for his agency. He now shares how focusing on innovation and making the jump to niche down changed everything.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• How to make innovation a top value at your agency.
• Why innovation can also mean simplifying processes.
• How to get a fresh perspective to bring new ideas.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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Overcoming Hard Times By Niching Down

For Josh's agency, the two years leading up to the pandemic were years of slow and organic growth. Once Covid hit, more than a third of their clients had to close shop and were unable to pay invoices. It seemed as good a time as any to do something they’ve been discussing for a while and niche down. Josh had been listening to several experts talk about the importance of niching down and owning your niche. Ultimately, they pulled the trigger and it was the best decision they have ever made. In fact, their finances started to improve almost immediately.

If anything, Josh only regrets waiting so long to do it. Luckily, he was able to turn the regret into creating a culture of innovation within the agency. Innovation is probably at the heart of most agencies' mission and vision. What’s actually hard is clearly defining it with actions.

There is a gap between how many agencies place innovation as one of their top values and how it’s actually one of the lowest when it comes to seeing this investment take place. Most agency owners want to be innovative but fail at “how”.

How Can You Find and Implement Innovation Within Your Agency?

In the agency world, you’re either moving forward or going backward. What can you do to make sure you’re always moving forward? Josh and his team organized a vision meeting where they defined innovation for their agency.  They started by “abolishing” some terms like “that’s just the way it is” and “this is how it’s always been”. By doing this, they started recreating their culture.

The concept of innovation in the agency space is usually attached to creative roles, which is a mistake. Anyone can innovate and it’s the youngest people on the team who usually bring a completely unique perspective. So, step one for Josh's team was deciding that innovation would be a huge part of the agency moving forward. Secondly, they focused on meetings, processes, and implementing tactics to ensure this.

Making huge changes in the agency is never easy and some team members may not be on board. In Josh’s case, about 30% of the team weren't accepting of the changes. It was his opportunity to see who was willing to be part of an agency transformation. There will always be people who don’t like change. However, in the digital marketing space you have to be innovating and changing or you will be left behind.

5 Questions to Kickoff Innovation in Your Agency

After defining innovation and bringing ideas to implement it, the team next focused on what they could remove from their processes. The idea was to get employees talking about things they were tired of doing and it was a big success. You can become so inflated with processes and SOPs the question “what can we remove?” brings a lot of suggestions. This helped Josh see innovation doesn’t have to be adding more and more. It can also be about removing what no longer serves a purpose for the agency.

In advance of the meeting, Josh sent his team some questions to get them thinking about what should be eliminated:

1. What would you like to do more of?
2. What would you like to do less of?
3. Is there something that has always confused you?
4. Is there something that you have always disagreed with?
5. What do you think could be removed that would lead to better results?

The exercise led to a lot of ideas which, Josh admits, were spot on. It can be hard to hear because some of the things your team wants to eliminate might be things you put into place. But that is what innovation is all about -- change and growth.

Next, they focused on questions about the leadership and the founders. Does X do something that distracts you? You’ll need to have thick skin to listen to what your team has to say, but it’s a great exercise.

How Masterminds Can Help Get a Fresh Perspective on Your Agency

Those meetings were such a success they turned into an annual event for his agency. Every year they organized meetings to tackle: how can we renew? What can we change? What can we add? And the second half focuses on what they can remove and simplify. The big takeaway has been simplicity. These meetings have helped his agency build its culture of innovation and allow its team to bring their own perspective.

More recently, they are focused on the importance of getting external motivation outside of the agency. It’s about maybe finding a peer group or mastermind and learning from someone with a new perspective. Oftentimes, it’s the agency owner who gets to experience these things, but they are trying to come up with ways for employees to also have these experiences.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Are you "that" agency? Do you tend to talk a lot about how smart you are? The awards you have won? It’s easy to fall into this trap of trying to sell your agency as the best, but sometimes it’s to the detriment of the client /agency relationship. Not anymore. Learn how to scale your agency by collaborating with your client to make their lives easier. Be the agency that keeps things simple and lets the client shine.

In this episode, we’ll cover:

• The best way to scale your agency.
• Which clients you should be paying attention to.
• How to make your client shine.
• How to prove your agency’s worth.

Today I chatted with Melinda Byerly, founder of her digital consultancy Time Share CMO. She’s got over fifteen years experience in Silicon Valley working in tech with start-ups and becoming an expert in digital marketing and analytic attribution. She’s also learned a thing or two about clients needs when it comes to data and analytics, as well as how to manage those expectations. Melinda is sharing all this and more with us so you can learn how to set your client up for success and ultimately, setting yourself up for success as well.

The Best Way to Scale Your Agency

There is a danger to scaling too fast. If you’re a service business, it’s so important to find the right people that will help you move towards your goals. Instead of proposing marriage first, maybe it’s time to try “going on a date” instead?

When you’re looking for the right person, it can take time to see if you will work well together, so that’s when you “go on a date.” Don’t do a contract, do a project - just one, minimal-commitment-type project together first. If that goes well, do another project together. This will allow you to get a feel for that person, how you work together and how they fit into the agency.

Build your agency one person at a time and take it slow, so that it’s the right fit.

“Dating” is a great concept with clients as well. Find out what keeps them up at night, do they wish they had somebody doing X?” Then focus on X first. Take it one problem at a time to make sure it is going to be a true client/agency partnership.

Taking on a bad client can be like a cancer. I like to say: there are no bad clients, only bad prospects or a bad process. If you don’t qualify your prospects, you could be letting in the wrong ones. And, if they aren’t following your process in the beginning, they are not going to follow your process under contract. Pay attention to those red flags!

Either bad clients never should have been let in, or you created them.

Clients You Should be Paying Attention To

Think about your prospects... Are they responsive? Pleasant and respectful? Do they listen and take your feedback into consideration? These are the clients you want.

An agency/client relationship is a collaboration. You need to be respectful of your clients requests, but it’s a collaborative effort and they should respect your experience and expertise as well.

Agencies tend to talk a lot, touting their awards and boasting their accomplishments. In a desire to impress, agencies are constantly selling themselves. Stop. It’s better to listen and ask questions, make the client the focal point. Focus on the needs of the decision maker in order to achieve their goals and ease their pain points.

Is Your Direct Client the Hero?

They should be.

You need to make your day-to-day client contact look good. Don’t make the mistake of always trying to make yourself look good and in the process throw your sponsor under the bus.

Before doing a presentation to a larger group, meet with your direct client contact. You are presenting on their behalf, so position things the way they would like them positioned and be sure to create moments for them to step in and be the expert. Establish moments to help them shine; allow them to be the hero.

People are loyal to people. There is a high turnover in this industry and if your client-sponsor leaves their, make them want to take you with them.

Are You Effectively Proving Your Worth?

Have you ever had a project where you’re totally killing it? But… you’re getting great results and all of a sudden your client wants to change directions?! You weren’t effectively communicating those great results.

First, you need to be sure you are setting expectations with the client. Don’t set yourself up to fail by setting unachievable expectations. Let them know what results can and cannot be tracked or quantified. Not everything will be trackable so be honest with them about this and most importantly, help them understand so that your agency is held to reasonable expectations.

At the same time you want to make sure you are being authentic and have high integrity about this. Don’t just regurgitate analytics reports -- make sure you are providing useful analytics that can help navigate the course of your client’s digital marketing.

Tell them what those analytics mean and provide them with a recommendation - that is your value add. By doing this, you’re preparing to justify yourself. You’re educating your client and managing their expectations so they can manage their manager’s expectations… which circles back to making them the hero.

Remember:  there is a difference between what you do and what you provide.

How to Know What Your Clients Want

Do you know what your clients really want? Your client hired you to do work for them and make their job easier. Don’t put more work on them. The more options someone has, the harder they have to work to make a decision. The harder, their brain has to work and the more you risk them shutting down or walking away. Remove that friction from your client’s decision making.

Keep it simple, such as saying:

• “Here is option A and B. The data suggest option A” ...OR...
• “The data is silent so it’s a judgement call... Here is our opinion on the judgement call.”

This is what they want! Their biggest decision is hiring you and then after that, answering “which of these things are you going to do?” Keep it simply “yes” or “no.”

Are Your Agency's Presentations Powerful?

Are you doing the work ahead of time but saving the presentation for the night before? Don’t.

Give data presentations they can’t ignore - make it easy for them.

For as much as you do the work ahead of time, you should be dedicating the same amount of time to preparing your client presentations. Be prepared with the material, so that you don’t need your slides. This gives you the ability to look the decision makers in the eyes, really listen to their questions and thoughtfully answer them.

When you put time into your presentation, you will present with more confidence. More confidence makes you more believable. When you’re believable things are less likely to sit on the shelf and clients are more likely to take action.

The action is what you’re looking for! When a client takes action, they’re happy. When they’re happy, they are more likely to re-engage you! And that makes you happy, right? :)

Do you have the right systems but still struggle to grow? Do you look at the big agencies and wonder how they got to 7- or 8-figures? It's all about having the ability to work with the right clients who can afford to pay what you're worth.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to turn more prospects into clients.
• 2 Key factors to establish effective pricing.
• How to get to the point where your agency can pick and choose.

Today I sat down with Eric Vardon, co-founder, and president of Arcane, a Canadian-based digital marketing agency. Eric started his agency in 2011 with a keen focus on analytics and a clear understanding of his business. He's on the show today to talk about how you can get your agency to a point where you're able to pick and choose which clients you want to work with.  

How to Turn More Prospects Into Clients

As a digital marketing agency, it's your job to get clients to see the value of your services. Clients aren't eager to hand over money for a strategy that might work. This is why so many agencies have difficulty finding success — they don't know how to convince clients to take the risk. 

So how do you get a client to see the value in what your agency offers? Make the pitch less subjective. Show potential clients actual figures to show you've run the numbers and care about their bottom line.     

Arcane does their homework and researches the client. Within the first couple of meetings with a potential client, Eric's team is able to understand the business' revenue goals and profitability. Using this information, they build a spreadsheet and proposal outlining the specific metrics needed to achieve results. When your client can actually see the numbers and ROI, they are more likely to take the leap. 

2 Key Factors to Establish Effective Pricing

Pricing is a big part of your agency's growth and success. Set the price too high and you'll have difficulty finding clients. Set it too low and the good clients won't take you seriously.  At the end of the day, your goal is to be profitable.  How much do you need to charge in order to achieve this goal?

1. Track and monitor everything. Remember those spreadsheets? Eric says there isn't a process or analytic where they don't have some sort of spreadsheet. Take a close look at your transactions. What are your hourly rates? What are your account costs? And what are your expenses?
2. Look at the big picture. Sometimes you have to look at what you are going to get out of a client in the long run and determine the lifetime value of this client. You may need to do additional work upfront because you know you'll make the margin back over time. 

How Your Agency Can Pick and Choose Clients

In the beginning, most agencies are stuck working with any and every client. However, eventually, we all want to get to the point where we can be more selective about which clients we do and don't want to work with. One of the best ways to do this is to bring on solid leadership and surround them with a good team. 

While Eric is the co-founder and president of Arcane, he brought on a CEO and a COO to focus on the day-to-day tasks. His COO comes from the public accounting industry and has been a critical part of developing the agency's financial strategy. The agency's CEO is a former HR professional. She knows the human side and is able to use her experience to work with clients and foster a successful team. Together, they create the perfect balance. 

Arcane's rapid success comes down to partnership, clarity, and accountability. Eric and his team frequently come together to discuss what they want, what makes them happy, and where they want to go. It's about understanding your agency's vision and communicating it to the team. 

Sometimes it's the simple things that bring the most success. When you understand what it takes to make your agency profitable and create a plan to get there, the rest is yours to pick and choose. 

Every digital agency struggles with some of the most common sales objections. I'm here to tell you how to turn those around and convert more prospects into clients, faster and easier.

Have you ever felt your agency’s proposal knocked it out of the park only to have the prospect put you off? It happens to all of us. You put your energy and effort into a stellar proposal only to receive a lackluster response like “Let me talk to my partner”, “let me see if we have the money”, or my personal favorite “Send me more information”.

Are these responses just to put you off or simply objections that can be flipped into a more favorable response? In this video, I go through some of the most common objections and how you can actually respond and determine if they can be flipped so you can train your team to handle objections effectively and close more business.

The best marketing salespeople answer questions before they’re asked. How to do this? By being transparent and sharing their exact process to build trust. Of course, questions and objections will still be raised, but if you answer 90% of the unasked questions then your salesperson can come in with that extra 10% and bring it to the finish line.

I firmly believe there are no bad agency CLIENTS, only bad PROSPECTS or bad PROCESS. So how do you know if your prospect has a true objection or is just wasting your time? There are some steps you can follow to get to the bottom of this faster and turn more of those NO's into YES!

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#1 Agency Sales Objection: Send Me More Information

If you give your pitch and the prospect's reaction is that they still want more information, this can mean one of two things, either something’s missing or you’re just getting a nice put-off. It can be difficult to determine which one it is, which is why I recommend asking these three simple questions: What, When, and Why.

• ‘What information would you like me to send you?’ This will help you determine what’s missing from your proposal and what else they need to know before saying yes.
• ‘When would you like me to send you this information?’ You want to follow up with the right information at the right time to increase your chances of working together.
• ‘Why do you need this additional information?’ This way you can understand more about the specific goals the prospect is trying to achieve. Moreover, it may also reveal whether you’re speaking to the right decision-maker or not. Perhaps they need more information to pass along to their boss or business partner. In that case, you need to get in front of the right person to answer their questions accurately.

If someone is blowing you off, they won’t have good answers to these questions. On the other hand, a good prospect who is genuinely interested in working with your agency will have very specific information they’re requesting, a timeline, and a reason.

Pro Tip: If it turns out it is a good prospect who just needs more information, then yes, commit to sending the information but also make sure to schedule the next meeting right then and there. That’s how you’re going to close the deal and stop wasting time on the wrong prospects.

#2 Agency Sales Objection: Let me Think About It

You spend lots of time on the prospect only to hear ‘Let me think about it”. It’s frustrating and unfortunately very common. Luckily, there’s an easy solution that just needs a couple of upfront questions.

If it’s a legitimate objection, then you can prevent issues by gathering more information. When I hear ‘Let me think about it’ it’s usually due to one of three reasons:

1. The prospect remains unclear about the plan. You may be using jargon that makes it confusing to the client when you should actually be talking to them about stuff they know.
2. The prospect is unclear about the results. Remember you’re not selling your agency services to your prospect, you’re selling them results. Do they understand how your solution will ease their pain and solve their issues? Have you established trust and authority in order to build their confidence in your ability to deliver?
3. Your agency isn’t clear on one or more elements of the NBAT criteria. The NBAT criteria (Need, Budget, Authority, and Timeline) is the best way to qualify your prospect so you don’t have to waste time with the wrong ones.

So as you prepare for your next business pitch, instead of dreading one of these lines, approach the pitch more proactively. Make sure you’re clearly defining the plan and results and that prospects have a full understanding of the NBAT. Once you have that covered, you’ll dramatically reduce and even eliminate this objection.

#3 Agency Sales Objection: We’ve Had a Bad Agency Experience

The first impression can be everlasting, whether it’s good, bad, or indifferent. Unfortunately, many times you can be held accountable for negative impressions left by an awful experience with a bad agency. This experience can become an objection because the prospect doesn’t fully understand what separates your agency from the rest.

There’s nothing you can do with regard to that past bad experience. It happened and was probably the result of bad communication when it came to expectations and results, strategy, or just a clash of personalities. What you CAN do is educate the prospect that those types of bad experiences aren’t the norm. How can you turn it around? Educate them on the plan. Explain exactly how you’re planning to achieve their goals and ease their pain points.

There’s an inherent uneasiness when people don’t know what to expect. However, having a clear plan in place will help your prospect feel more confident and assured. Inform them about the systems and processes. Establish clear communication on what you do and how you do it.

You need to know and understand what’s the issue they’re having, what’s the impact that issue is having on their business, and what’s the level of importance or consequence if they don’t address the issue? When the right prospects are properly educated on the process, they’ll choose to work with you. However, it requires work to build that relationship.

#4 Agency Sales Objection: Do You Have Any References?

What if the prospect isn’t asking you for more information and instead they want references? Does it hurt or help to use past clients as references for new ones?

The request for references goes back to the presence of doubt in the prospect’s mind. There’s something they’re still uncertain about when it comes to working with you. Bottom line, this means there’s a hole in your sales process. It’s possible that somewhere in the sales process you failed to gain their trust fully.

Frankly, giving them a reference will actually hurt your agency. Here’s why, you respect your client’s time. If you have a prospect call up a client now they’re spending their time helping sell you instead of working on their business.

A lot of prospects will have questions about your specific strategies, which are your intellectual property. Not knowing any better, your clients might start giving away your secret sauce for free. So when a prospect asks for a reference, counter by asking more questions: What’s missing for them? What are they unsure about?

Instead of letting a reference or testimonial talk them into or out of working with you, try to answer all their concerns. Finally, tell them you want to share a case story or two instead of a reference. Case stories can often accomplish the same trust-building as a reference without monopolizing your client’s time and putting your IP at risk. If after this, they still want a reference, you can do this as a last resort and make sure you have a trusted client or two that previously agreed to be contacted.

#5 Agency Sales Objection: Another Agency Will Do It Cheaper

After easing the prospect’s mind, answering all their questions, and offering all the information, you may find some clients will want to haggle over price. They’ll say something like they got a cheaper quote from a different agency. It may be a case of an uninformed prospect who just needs a little bit more formation or a sign this is a bad prospect who’s just not a good fit with your agency.

Is it really a price issue or are they undervaluing the solution that you’ll be providing? Oftentimes, prospects aren’t fully educated on the value. So how to combat common price objections? Cheaper does not mean equal. Go back to Issue, Impact, and Importance. Is the lower-cost option really meeting the prospect’s objections? Ask them why the other agency’s quote is so cheap and let them think through the cost vs. quality difference. Often the cheaper option will mean more work for the client and, don’t forget, time is money.

Sometimes prospects only see dollar signs and forget to really scrutinize what they’re getting. When you initiate conversations like these it helps them second-guess their gut reaction of going with the cheapest option.

Related: https://jasonswenk.com/top-5-agency-sales-objections/

Do You Want to Convert More Prospects Into Agency Clients?

FREE COURSE: Discover the 4-system process to CONVERTING more agency clients at https://www.agencymastery360.com/convert In our videos series, we'll break down the steps you need to charge what you're worth, overcome common sales objections, and unlock up to 20X more revenue from existing clients.

Are you searching for more ways to attract new agency clients? Have you considered starting a podcast for your agency? Are you searching for new ways to spread the word about the services you offer? Are you wondering how to encourage your own team to be thought leaders? Now more than every, content creation options are endless. Take advantage of them all by asking for help so you can focus on growing your agency.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• How content marketing is changing with the times.
• When should content be written vs spoken?
• 3 things to turn your team into thought leaders.

I talked with Steve Pockross, the CEO of the content creation marketplace, Verblio. Verblio currently has 3,000 writers who create 70,000 pieces of unique content each year, with a focus on delivering content to more than 500 digital agencies who count on the company to supply content for their clients. Steve is here to talk about how content creation is changing with the times and how agencies can keep up with these changes. Today, Verblio's writers need to go beyond writing simple blog posts to transforming audio and video content into written work and refreshing old content into something new.

How Content Marketing Is Changing With the Times

At the beginning of 2020, Steve noted the trend in content creation was long-form content creation. Clients were seeking content that was 1,000 words long or more. Additionally, clients were beginning to ask for written content created from video. However, when the pandemic hit in March, the requests for content changed again. "Since the pandemic, we have seen a move toward instant impact content," Steve says. "We are getting requests for content refreshers. We are re-purposing audio content as written content." Additionally, Steve adds, there is a micro content trend in which larger pieces of content are broken up into smaller pieces that provide a quick, easy read for the client's audience.

With all of the changes experienced through technological advances and world events, one thing Steve has noticed is clients are going bigger. Verblio has experienced a 25% increase in content requests since April.

When Should Content Be Written vs Spoken?

Digital agencies are looking for a way to reach their clients in a world that offers many different channels and platforms. Steve says to use them all. "Podcasts are a DVR for audio," he says. "They're so accessible, you can listen anytime you want." He adds that there is a natural viral aspect to podcasts: they're interactive, they're engaging, and they are a way to build your audience.

On the flip side, though, Steve stresses making a podcast involves preparation. You can't ask every guest the same questions, and with 800,000 podcasts available, it's important to know what you're trying to create and who you're trying to reach. As effective as a podcast can be in reaching your clients, "many people still love to read," Steve said. Providing your podcast content in written form is a more complete way to present the content and reach different listeners as well as readers.

Writing is time-consuming and not everyone is confident in their ability to do it. Steve encourages agency owners to perform the work they're strong in seek help from outside sources or others on your team in order to provide content in other formats to reach a larger audience.

3 Things to Turn Your Team Into Thought Leaders

Being a thought leader is difficult to manage when you still have a day job, Steve notes. This is one of the reasons that encouraging your team to be thought leaders can provide you with advantages. Some of the things you can do to encourage this thought leadership in your team include:

1. If you do a podcast, include your team. One way to start this process is to ask team members what questions they are repeatedly asked by clients. Then create a podcast around those commonly asked questions. This extends to everyone from operations to creatives to the account team. Getting the team involved not only takes the burden off of you in creating all of your agency's content but also opens the doors to their own ideas on how to create fresh content. "Great content isn't written, it's assembled," Steve says.
2. Commit to the process. If you want to offer a company blog, commit to a schedule that allows you to create blog posts. If you aren't a writer, commit to finding a writer who will work with you. Instead of stressing about creating 100% of the content for your agency, have someone else create 80%.
3. Be clear with your expectations. Commit to sharing your thoughts about content creation and getting feedback in return. Remember, your thoughts are not going to telepathically transfer to your team or to your outside content creator. They have to be clearly communicated.

Looking for a Content Creation Solution?

Verblio has been a long time supporter of the Smart Agency Masterclass and a trusted vendors we've been using for over two years. They are an amazing content creation solution designed specifically for agencies; their writers can help with all your content creation needs across a variety of industries. If you're interested in trying Verblio for yourself check out Verblio.com/smartagency for 50% off your first month of content.

AND... if you want to provide input about what works and what doesn't take a minute to participate in Verblio's agency survey.

Are you at the crossroads of deciding how big to grow your agency? Bigger isn't always better; in some cases, it makes more sense to create a lifestyle business. It's important to have a clear vision for your agency. For some, that means growing to 7- or 8-figures. However, for others, it means keeping a small, nimble team with lots of control over processes. This is why some agency owners decide to either wait until they feel ready to take on that challenge or continue to thrive as a boutique agency. Today’s guest made the decision to run a small operation where she still feels in control of the agency operations.

Rebekah Edwards is the owner of Clara, a digital marketing agency in the SEO and content space. Her agency niche is in the health and wellness space. Clara creates the clearest, highest-value, and most trustworthy SEO on the market. Since 2019, their team has been propelling clients to become expert voices in their fields. About a year after starting the agency, she realized she could start growing the operation, hire more staff, and take on more clients. However, it would’ve been a huge undertaking that didn’t fit with her busy personal life. She is sharing why she decided to remain in control of her agency operations by keeping it small. In the years since the agency has actually dropped clients and is doing better than ever.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• Deciding to stay small and retain control of your agency.
• Dropping clients and saying no to the wrong clients.
• Common mistakes when trying to grow.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host: Darby Copenhaver is the Agency Scale Specialist at the Agency Mastery 360, which provides agency owners with the coaching, community, and tools needed to scale and find their freedom. He helps agency owners scale through a proven framework for growing their agencies faster and connecting with other amazing agency owners. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and bringing a new perspective to the show.

Rebekah had never worked in the agency space before. However, she had worked as a freelancer in different areas for many years and was the managing editor for a website that saw tremendous growth. She decided to build an agency as she needed help and didn't have the time to fully invest in each of her clients. Together with her husband, they developed a system for hiring writers and editing things on the backend. They did this by doing white-glove work for people who would benefit from content-led SEO without Rebekah having to do all the work.

Using SEO as a Lead Generation Platform

Rebekah's agency uses SEO as a lead generation platform by creating long-form educational content in the health and wellness niche. This strategy enables them to create the type of results that appear when people Google questions like "why do I get headaches in the morning?" Companies can then convert those people to leads, sales, etc.

Staying Small to Retain Control Over Agency Operations

Despite many agency owners aiming to grow into one of the best agencies in the US, Rebekah doesn't necessarily want her team to be passionate about their jobs. Instead, she values them being good at their jobs, so they can finish and get home to their families. After creating the agency, Rebekah had to decide whether to continue scaling or carry on as a boutique agency. Being a boutique agency suited her role as an adoptive mother to two teenagers. She and her husband decided a lifestyle business was better suited for their needs. Rebekah can still act as a project manager and ensure that every client gets the promised results. She is open to scaling in the future, but the point of having an agency was to be with her family and have a more flexible schedule

.

Dropping Clients and Saying No to the Wrong Ones

To prevent the agency from taking over her life and decisions, Rebekah plans to drop some clients this year. This way, the agency will be operating with fewer clients than they've had in a long time. Building a social media presence has helped her find her audience, and this way, she can scale without having to say yes to every single client.

Common Mistakes to Avoid When Trying to Grow

In the past, Rebekah made some common mistakes by trying to expand her service offering and train in-house staff to take on some of her tasks. However, this didn't resonate with what she ultimately wanted for the agency, and the team performed poorly in those cases. Rebekah feels more freedom to say no to the wrong clients now that she's back in her role as a project manager. There's a clear direction for the agency, and she's in control.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Wondering if it's time to hire an agency president? If you're feeling like the burden of the day-to-day is holding you back, it might be time! Are you being stretched in too many directions? Are you wondering how to find the right person to help run your agency? Every agency reaches the point of choosing to stay on that plateau or hire a leader capable of reaching the next level.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• Signs it's time to hire an agency president.
• How to find an agency president.
• Onboarding an agency president.

I talked to Doug Joseph, the Founder and CEO of Serif Creative. Serif started as a video production company, before adding additional services including brand strategy, creative storytelling, and digital marketing. There came a point in Doug's journey of founding and leading Serif when he realized he needed help with certain aspects of the agency. He is here to talk about why he chose to hire a president and how he found a great person for the job.

Signs It's Time to Hire an Agency President

Doug's strength and desire have always been creative storytelling. This is what led him to create an agency in the first place. However, "I'm a big picture guy," he says. "I'm not good with the day-to-day details."  It's that self-awareness that led Doug to the conclusion that he needed to bring on a president.

What Doug realized is by finding someone with strengths opposite of his, each of them was able to focus their time and attention on the aspects of the business that they were passionate about. Meanwhile, there is peace of mind knowing the other parts of the business are being taken care of by someone who is equally passionate about what they do.

How to Find an Agency President

When Doug decided it was time to hire a president to allow his agency to grow, he was looking for someone to handle the aspects of the agency he was less passionate about. A large part of hiring for the position was giving the person flexibility to create his own position based on the needs they identified. Serif Creative's President brought a keen ability for acquiring new projects and a strength in providing digital services. Both were welcome additions to the business.

"It's all about desire," Doug explains. "If a person is passionate about the work they are doing, then there is less management of that position required. When there is less desire, more management and more accountability are required."

A great resource for finding someone to help lead your agency is through your professional network. However, Doug says to use caution when hiring friends or friends of your team members as it can create awkward situations if they're not a good fit.

Onboarding an Agency President Your Team Will Love

Serif Creative's President had mutual friends with Doug and was doing freelance work at the time the two met. Doug hired him to provide consultation on certain agency issues. This resulted in an increase in business, including a retainer from a Fortune 500 client. Doug felt comfortable offering the consultant the permanent position because he was confident in his skills and ability. Additionally, it allowed the team to all become familiar before adding him on at a management level.

Bottom line, Stop being Chief Everything Officer. Find a way to do what you're good at, whether that involves acquiring work or producing work. Find someone who shares your goals for the agency and passion for clients but brings different strengths. This can help your agency land new clients, produce new service offerings, or otherwise grow and thrive.

Related: https://jasonswenk.com/digital-agency-ceo/

Would you like a 90% close rate on the deals you want?

It took my agency years to develop a solid foot in the door offer that converted at a high rate. And, Ian has spent the last 10 years developing his too. That's why we decided to collaborate and create the FITD framework to share with other agency owners.

If you want to learn more check out FootInTheDoorFramework.com. You can discover the exact framework that Ian and I created so you can be successful. Close deals faster, stop giving away strategy for free and win the deals you want. When you have the right framework, you will find your sales process is scalable. You can even step away from sales and so you can spend your time working on the best.

Do you know what brands want from an agency? What do they look for when deciding to work with an agency? Are you looking for a way to stand out in a world of "me too" agencies? Often, the best way to get noticed is to embrace who you are.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• The biggest disconnect between brands and agencies.
• #1 reason brands prefer working with niche agencies.
• 3 ways your agency can stand out.

Today I sat down for an enlightening conversation with Robby Berthume, CEO of Bull & Beard, an agency collective based in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Robby works with agencies and brands to help them come together to find the perfect fit. He's here to discuss what brands are looking for in an agency, and what you can do to win brand contracts.

The Biggest Disconnect Between Brands and Agencies

There's a lot of disconnect between brands and agencies. While the end game is the same, typically, there is a lot of disagreement about how to get there. Robby says, one of the biggest disconnects he sees is in the area of pricing.

When a brand comes in with a set budget, agencies tend to just accept it as is. If we push back and say we need a little more or the budget is unrealistic, the brand may choose to go somewhere else. But what if you look at it from a different vantage point?

Robby says pricing can help you gain credibility and earn a brand's respect. Sure you can tell a client you can come in at a certain price point, but you're not doing yourself any favors. When you're straightforward about the cost of a project and what your services are worth, you'll earn the client's trust.

#1 Reason Brands Prefer Working With Niche Agencies

We've talked about declaring a niche endlessly. I'm a strong believer in declaring a niche in order to separate your agency from generalists. And Robby says has found the clients agree. Yes, there are some brands that like to work with full-service agencies, but Robby says the split is about 80-20 in favor of niche agencies.

Think about it this way. When you hire someone, you want to know they are the best at their job. You don't want a jack of all trades. When you build a home, you want a contractor, not a handyman. Brands invest a lot into agencies. That's why they prefer to choose experts over generalists.

3 Ways to Your Agency Can Stand Out

There's no getting around it — brands have a lot of choices. If you're not careful, you can become just another "me too" agency. So what can you do to make sure you get noticed?

• Put in the work: If you're lazy, it's going to show. Before you talk to a client, do your research. Audit their website, look at their pain points, and be prepared with a plan.
• Let your personality show: By reviewing Bull & Beard's website you'll notice is it doesn't look like your typical agency website. From the colors to the typeface and even word choice, everything about the site lets you know who Bull & Beard is. When you let your personality show, clients are more likely to remember you when it comes time to choose an agency.
• Become a trusted advisor: Let's be honest, there are a lot of agencies out there that offer the same services you do. That's why you don't want to sell yourself as just a doer, you want to be the expert resource. Ask questions, figure out the client's problem, and provide a strategy for resolving it. This is your number one differentiator.

The ultimate goal is to pick and choose who you work with. But often, we work with clients who aren't a good fit when we feel we have no other choice. When you put in the work to separate yourself and gain trust as an agency, that's when you'll discover you have true creative freedom.

Does your agency website convert as well as it should? Why do clients buy from your agency? It might be time to take an objective look to determine how your agency website can convert more clients. It’s a practice that will help you improve as a business and get a pulse on your audience’s decision-making process. Today’s guest founded one of the first CRO agencies in America and has a lot of experience understanding what his clients need versus what they want. He's sharing his story about growing his successful agency and ways you can improve your website to convert more clients by looking at the functional, emotional, and social reasons they buy from you.

Khalid Saleh is the CEO of Invesp, one of the first dedicated CRO Agencies in North America. His agency has worked with the likes of eBay and Target, as well as smaller startups. As an eCommerce software architect, Khalid built his career devising ecommerce and optimization solutions for companies like American Express. Today he’ll reveal how some of the most important changes to a business website must come from careful testing and how, in that process, he’s usually humbled by clients.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• What clients want vs. what clients need.
• Improve your agency website to convert more clients.
• Getting to the core of why clients buy.

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Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design, and development agency that has provided white-label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host: Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the co-founder of Rise25, an agency that helps companies launch and run podcasts profitably. He followed Jason’s podcast and eventually joined the mastermind and has been a guest on the podcast before. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and getting a new perspective to the show.

What Clients Want vs. What Clients Need

Khalid got the opportunity of a lifetime to work with Motorola revamping their ecommerce website in 2005. It was a dream come true for any software engineer as he had access to all the technology he needed to build the best website.

The project took endless nights of hard work but the site was ready in three months. However, after so many hours of work and resources poured into the website, they quickly learned the site was not converting. They had almost no orders. As a software engineer, this was outside Khalid's expertise. The site was built as expected so his job was done. Nonetheless, Khalid became very interested in how something like this could happen and the idea for his agency, Invesp, was born.

Now his agency helps brands increase conversion rates by getting to the core of their goals. It boils down to what clients want versus what clients actually need. Often times clients think they just want to revamp their websites, but they actually want help growing their business.

Improving Your Agency Website to Convert More Clients

Khalid and his team know that website CRO starts with looking at the website from the client's perspective. Once he understood that clients chose his agency in order to grow their business, his team made some adjustments to the agency website. First, they got rid of any language that sounded too formal. He wants clients to feel like they’re being greeted as a friend. He also removed ambiguous language and tried to be very clear about what his agency does. Too often a company’s website uses vague language. As a result, people leave not having any idea about what they do. In this sense, the friendly language must be balanced with practical descriptions of the ways you help clients.

Next, clients browsing the website may worry their team lacks experience. So they added social proof of the different companies they’ve worked with and the results they’ve achieved. They even added video testimonials to offer additional evidence and not just claims of success.

Khalid and his team designed the website according to what they wanted the client’s user journey to look like. They strategically mapped it out to answer their main questions and concerns and address their core needs. This is what he did for his agency and part of how he helps clients increase their CRO.

Why Clients Can Humble the Most Experienced Marketing Agency Experts

In his keynote speeches, Khalid often refers to being humbled by clients. Sometimes all your research and testing does not prepare you for the clients’ reactions. Even though the research indicates one option is the most likely to bring more website traffic and clicks, you may be quickly humbled by the actual response. It’s something every business owner, marketer, or designer can relate to.

Anytime you run an experiment in marketing you have a hypothesis. You may be proven correct or find you’ve misinterpreted what the audience wants. With several options, one wins, and the others lose. Why did some of them not work out? This is a tricky question you should always ask to get a better understanding of what works for your audience.

Some clients may agree there are reasons to change a design but don’t think testing is necessary. They can’t choose one design out of several options so they figure any of them will do. This is where Khalid’s team insists on the importance of testing each design out. Usually, the results end up surprising everyone. Out of four designs that seemed equally good maybe two actually reduce the conversion rate, while the results for the other two show a clear winner. This is why testing is so important.

Getting to the Core of Why Your Clients Buy from Your Agency

Anyone who’s been through business school has probably heard that “no one buys a quarter-inch drill, they buy a quarter-inch hole”. That saying refers to the practical results you expect to get when you buy a product. In reality, for every action we take there are functional results, social results, and emotional results. For instance, if you buy a car you’ll be able to get from point A to point B (functional), you’ll feel like you’ve accomplished something (emotional), and maybe get your peers’ praise (social).

However, getting people to admit this is difficult. You must be very good at customer interviews by structuring them in a conversational style. After establishing the conversation, Khalid recommends going back to when the problem began. Ask questions that take the prospect back to the moment they decided to make the purchase. The more they remember and open up with details about their purchase decision,  the better results you'll get about the emotional and social response to the purchase. These results are better than just asking direct questions about the product and purchase experience.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program enables you to take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Would you like to attract more clients with outbound sales? Do you need to build a successful sales team that gets results? Today’s guest is a sales expert who helps agency owners get out of sales and build a successful sales team. It’s all about building consistency and using your network to create relationships that will help you grow your agency.

Dan Englander is the CEO and founder of Sales Schema, a B2B agency that secures ideal prospect relationships. His team goes out to the market and helps clients get meetings and focus on new business. Earlier in his career, he led new business for a creative services company and helped them get to seven figures. After starting his agency in 2014, he has learned a lot about how companies go after new business. More recently, he shares his perspective on sales and how to improve at it in his new book, Relationship Sales at Scale.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• How agencies can do better at outbound sales.
• Using your network to get to your ideal clients.
• What works when it comes to finding and training salespeople.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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When is the Right Time to Transition Out of Sales?

Transitioning out of sales requires two main steps, according to Dan: who's doing what and developing consistencies in the sales process.

We all fall into the trap of dedicating too much time and energy to clients and none to your agency. Once you stop focusing on sales you’ll be on another level to focus on growing your agency.

If you’re an agency owner and the salesperson, think about spending half your time on sales. Eventually, get yourself to the point where you can just focus on the top of the funnel and have someone help set meetings. Clear the other half of your time to focus on your agency.  Do this with the mindset of gradually getting out of sales altogether.

Agency owners commonly try to hang on to sales because they feel clients only want to talk to them. That’s a misconception, considering how many owners have managed to grow their agencies to massive proportions by getting out of sales. It’s not the easiest thing to do, but once you have a repeatable sales process it becomes easier to get someone else in that seat.

Where do some agency owners go wrong with this transition? They jump to it too early before figuring out the repeatable process. They just throw a salesperson into it the mix and expect them to figure it out. That sets them up for failure and, once they do, it is easy to convince yourself that you’re the only one that can handle sales successfully.

How to Create a Repeatable Sales Process

Agency owners struggle, sometimes for years, to find the right salesperson and this has a lot to do with having the right systems in place. Dan likes to break it down into a process where you start at the very top of the funnel.

• Think about how you’re getting meetings.
• Break down your conversion process from the first appointment to the proposal.
• Follow that with breaking down the process from proposal to close.

Of course, this may vary depending on how complex your sales process is -- documenting everything is key in order to set up your salesperson for success.

When it comes to how to get meetings, Dan and his team find outbound is a really good way to do it. Whatever you’re selling it stands to reason that your market will be relatively small. Your target audience is not everyone in the world so you don’t have to build a massive inbound funnel. There are really a finite number of relationships you can build in your area. With outbound, you can start building those relationships before the client actually has a need. Then you are top of mind when the need is there.

Building Relationships With Outbound Sales

One of the things Dan's agency does for clients is referral-driven campaigns where they make a list of ideal clients and identify who could introduce them to those clients. Basically, they identify friends of friends, narrow them down to contacts in the first degree and ask for an introduction to someone in their network. A lot of people have no problem making that connection once you’re upfront about what you want.

They usually start with an accounts-based list of thousands of companies. Instead of trying to find the golden company that you may want to work with but have no meaningful connection to, find a number of companies you’re actually connected with. The connection you make as a result might not get you a campaign that lasts very long, but it will help you get that level of trust in order to get you a referral.

What Works When it Comes to Finding Salespeople?

This is something Dan still struggles with to this day. Being a sales hirer is part of your job as an agency owner and part of getting out of sales. You have to dedicate part of your time to finding the right salesperson and training them because you’re essentially investing in someone that’s going to help your agency grow.

Dan's agency gives the hiring funnel as much importance as the sales funnel.

Also, to weed out candidates that are ultimately not a right fit Dan usually asks for video interviews. It’s a way to see how invested the candidate is and avoid wasting time on long interviews in-person interviews. Once he’s made that hire, he invests in sales training every week. New team members do role-playing exercises and listen to sales calls every day to get ready. It is a lot of work, he admits, but it is worth it.

Another good tip is to not assume the person is perfect for the job after a good interview. Ask the candidate to make a 90-day plan and see if what they present truly aligns with what you need.

Finally, don’t underestimate the importance of not just hiring the right person for the job. It's equally important to put together the right framework for your salesperson to model, evaluate, and make new recommendations on.

How to Face Client’s Skepticism

The hardest part of sales is getting someone to agree to take your call. Once you’ve done that, they are now investing time. They would not be spending time in that conversation if they didn’t have a specific need. Just make sure the conversation flows in a way the client is comfortable and feels heard. Spend more time listening than talking. Give space to ask questions and don't make the prospect feel interrogated.

Don’t underestimate the importance of asking the right questions to pull the client in. A lot of salespeople tend to push a lot and makes people feel they have to push back. It’s a completely different thing to present yourself as the trusted advisor through the right questions.

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Today’s guest, Jake Hare, has tons to share about overcoming struggles in the first year of agency ownership. He got his start developing apps while serving as Lead Intelligence Analyst in the military. Today he is co-founder of Launchpeer, a digital agency serving startups and entrepreneurs in the South. Learn how he generated niche leads for his agency.

Why Start an Agency?

After spending 3 ½ years in 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, Jake went on to do government contract work in software development. Once he realized he wasn’t passionate about his work, he started taking on side jobs developing apps. In late 2014 he and his two partners decided it was time to go all in, so they founded Launchpeer. As a husband, father and part-time grad school student this was a giant leap of faith! 

Struggles in Early Agency Days

For Jake and his partners the hardest part of maintaining the agency this first year has been generating leads outside of their personal contacts. After working with friends (who naturally expected special pricing) The 3 co-founders brainstormed ways to drum up new business outside their circle. They tried to white label their services for larger agencies which didn’t work out because other agencies weren’t receptive to the idea. (They had not read my take on white labeling!) They tried networking events, which did bring in some business but takes tons of time and yields little results. They also got some referral business but word of mouth is not a scalable way to grow business.

Finding Ways to Capture and Convert Niche Leads

When they got to a point where they had no new jobs and no new niche leads, Jake did some online searching and discovered my Generate Leads Everyday program. They bought the program and made the decision to niche and focus on marketing to just one type of business -- startups and entrepreneurs in the South.  Jake admits it was super scary but the guys were forced to either take action or look at shutting down.

How a 0.3% Opt-In Rate Grew to 32% in 6 Weeks

With a 0.3% opt-in rate, Launchpeer had nowhere to go but up. Jake and his partners got themselves out of the mindset that their website was a showpiece. They scrapped their entire site and changed the content to focus on the prospect and not themselves. They created landing pages focused on the lead and how Launchpeer can solve their problems. They created a Foot In the Door offer to drive traffic to their landing pages and marketed on Facebook.

Jake says there was a lot of testing and tweaking involved in getting everything just right. In fact, he laughs about one of the biggest tweaks that happened when he was investigating why their Facebook ad click-through rate was lower than expected. He realized he had chosen to advertise to “southern-based entrepreneurs who speak English-UK”. One silly slip-up and he was aiming his ads at Brits in the U.S. South! :)

Trial and error plays a big role in getting results, too. They did split testing on their Foot In the Door landing pages and discovered a simpler ad converts more than a wordier one...  This analysis and experimenting is what resulted in Launchpeer’s 0.3% opt-in rate to reach 10% and eventually to 32%+ over a 6-week period.

On interview date, Launchpeer was spending $20 per day and getting 6-10 leads per day. The exponential growth and potential opportunity far exceed their daily cost!

Best Advice from a New Agency Owner

“Don't be afraid to take action. I know it can be scary,” says Jake. But, if what you’re doing isn’t working then the best thing you can do is something else. And as I always say, action leads to transactions. Being a business owner is tough and scary, no matter who you are… but doing nothing and closing your doors will be tougher and scarier.

Ready to Take Action?

Referrals are not scalable. So, if you are ready to take action that will lead to more leads every day, head over to GenerateLeadsEverday.com. This is the exact system I use, Jake uses and my clients use to grow and scale their businesses.

Want More Advice?

I hope you found this beneficial and it helps you generate niche leads for your agency.

If you have more questions about your agency from the good to the bad like how you can get through hard times in your agency, I can help. Through my many years of experience, I can share advice on topics including how to start an agency from scratch to reasons you should sell.

You can check out all my tips, tricks, and everything you need to know in my blogs. I have covered a wide variety of topics as well as answered your questions in more from my Ask Swenk series.

Are videos more your thing?  You can check out my AskSwenk series and more of my videos on my YouTube channel for advice from myself and other agency experts.

Are you really fostering your client relationships? Are you going beyond the transaction and getting personal? People prefer doing business with people they know, like, and trust. Connections not only help you find and retain clients but place a greater value on the services you provide.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• The most important ingredient in your hustle.
• Why is branded content so effective?
• Why client relationships are so important.

Richie Kulchar is the Co-founder, Producer, and Director of a branded film content agency called Junk Films. Richie and his partner actually met in 2014 while they were both undergoing substance abuse treatment at a rehab in the Los Angeles area. The two finished their treatment and ultimately began an agency together in 2017. Among their first clients were substance abuse treatment centers. These businesses, as Richie explains, had a mission of hope but "their marketing materials were trash." Junk Films now boast a client list that includes some of the biggest brands in the nation. Richie is on the show to share how he turned his life around and built an amazing agency.

The Most Important Ingredient in Your Hustle

"The idea behind Junk Films is that you're dealing with ex-junkies," Richie says. "We have been hustlers in our lives. We're used to hustling to get what we want." He and his partner's substance abuse is something they're both very transparent about. They use their backgrounds and their stories to help tell the stories of other people.

The leap from local substance abuse treatment center clients to well-known brands like Adidas "was lucky but it was also a hustle," Richie says. He had a friend with an agency who had done work for Adidas' original YouTube channel. The friend reached out to Junk Films for video content for the client, and Richie was able to use the work he did for that company to attract more clients, both through the quality of work as well as word-of-mouth. Starting with very little capital, Richie and his partner brokered deals in which the advertiser paid for their costs -- such as rented camera equipment -- and would, in turn, receive a high-quality video. After some time and successes, Junk Films began finding clients who were able to pay a standard rate.

Why Is Branded Content So Effective?

The industry of film advertising has changed, Richie says. In the past, a company would hire someone to shoot a commercial and then pay for media spots, whether they were the right audience for that product or not. Data analytics tools and targeted advertising online has changed the game for the better. Brands choose the demographics they want the ads to be displayed to while also measuring the impact of their advertising reach.

By reaching the targeted audience, brands are better able to connect to those who would be most impacted by their products. "Branded content is so important because there is no quicker way to tell your story," Richie says. The vast majority of online content these days is, in fact, video content. For people who don't like to read, he explains, video content is a way to grab the attention of the consumer and provide them with a balance of information and emotion.

One of the challenges conducting video interviews is many of the interviewees do not have experience on camera. This is where Richie is again able to use his own personal story to connect with them. He helps them feel comfortable telling their own stories. There are also a number of camera techniques, including the use of a longer lens so the videographer is at a greater distance from the interview subject.

Why Client Relationships Are So Important

Relationships are key when it comes to agency growth. When client-side contacts change jobs, they often go to another well-known brand. They take their connections with them, including their connection to Junk Films and the ability to obtain quality video content. This results in an opportunity to work with new brands and showcase their work in new ways.

In an industry saturated with agencies, providing film content helps your clients connect more with you and with their customers. But it all begins with the ability to share your own story and let your clients connect with you.

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Not sure how to determine agency prices? How can you stay competitive while separating your agency the competition? The first step is to stop copying them! Quit focusing on the competition because it always results in you becoming a copycat agency. If you want to grow, you have to dare to be different.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• The best way to determine your agency pricing structure.
• Why agency meetings may be costing you too much.
• How to separate your agency in a crowded market.

Today, I talked with Nick Eubanks, CEO and Founder of From the Future. Nick got his start by spamming cold emails and working real estate. But, once he started his agency, he grew fast! In just 5 years, Nick's agency was worth millions. He's sharing his story so you can grow quicker, and also avoid some of his mistakes.

The Best Way to Determine Your Agency Pricing Structure

Many agencies determine their pricing structure by looking at their competitors and matching or competitively pricing themselves in the market. Let's be honest — a lot of you probably started out by picking a fair-sounding price point. Am I right?

Price your agency's services intentionally. Sure, you can do what your competitors are doing. But, at that point, you've already lost. Instead, try this — price your services based on your value and desired margins.

The average net margin for a services company in the U.S. is 32% - so make that should be your goal.

To figure out how much you should charge clients, add up your agency expenses and labor expenses, then figure in the value of your services. Then charge clients at least 32% above the cost of your expenses. But, remember, you're selling a solution — not just a product. You can charge as high as 50% or more over margin and still attract clients.

Bear in mind, you need to factor in all of the miscellaneous business costs into this model. For example, have you ever considered how the expense associated with internal meetings?

Why Your Meetings May Be Costing You Too Much

Internal meetings are a great way to build company culture, create rapport among the team, and of course, brainstorm. But Nick says they're more expensive than we realize.

Let's say you have 4 team members attend an hour-long meeting. If you're billing their time at $200 an hour, that meeting is costing you $800.

Not only is that meeting costing you billable hours, but those four employees aren't directly servicing clients during that time. So, the meeting expense is actually more than you think.

The lesson here is not to cut out meetings - team meetings are a great way to keep your team working cohesively. But, you need to be aware of how much meetings cost. And, build those costs into your price structure.

How to Separate Your Agency in a Crowded Market

Nick's agency started using technical SEO strategies combined with a design/UX team to stand out. But, it's about more than just services. Being unique requires some critical thinking.

What are your competitors doing? Whatever it is, think about doing the opposite. That's how to fast track your growth. For example, if everyone is approaching SEO the same way, add a twist and do technical SEO.

Look for opportunities in your niche. And, when you find one — latch onto it. Sure, you should definitely compete for clients. And, you don't have to just go after clients no one else is taking on. But, you should always be looking for under-serviced prospects within a market.

In other words, don't watch your competitors and just copy what they're doing. Figure out what they're doing and do something entirely different. Identify your strengths and what you do better than anyone else.

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Verblio's platform is designed specifically for agencies -- and for a limited time, they are offering my audience 50% off your first month of content. My team is using Verblio and loving it, so make sure you check them out.

Is your agency tone deaf? I am seeing agencies handle this pandemic and economy crash in one of two ways. They have either stopped selling because they feel it's insensitive or futile. Or, they are tone deaf and not listening to the actual needs of the market.

In this episode, I am putting the spotlight on Scott Bell, CEO of Bell Media.

Right away, Scott changed his agency's messaging to be empathetic and get the attention of his market. This gives your prospects reassurance that you understand what's going on and hear how their needs, challenges, and concerns are changing right now.

In times like these, your agency needs to be flexible and have the ability to move swiftly to make changes in how you're gaining clients. What are your current challenges and struggles in surviving and thriving right now? 

Music by epidemicsound.com

Do you want your eventual exit to benefit many instead of a few? Want to motivate and empower the team by making them personally invested in the agency’s success? Have you thought about employee shares or stock options? Learn what you should do and what to avoid in this situation from the CEO of an employee-owned agency. It was an unconventional exit strategy by its owner. However, it the new ownership structure offers many benefits for all involved and is a very interesting way to positively ensure that everyone at the agency has skin in the game.

Leeann Leahy is the CEO of VIA, a full-service advertising and marketing agency based in Portland, Maine. They are an award-winning team and one of the largest independent agencies in the business. How did they do it? Many years after its creation, the last remaining original partner decided to build a very interesting ownership structure that would benefit all employees instead of a select executive team. Leeann discusses the process of putting such a structure together, the challenges, and the many benefits it creates for the business culture and overall employee commitment.

In this interview, we’ll discuss:

• How to set up an employee-owned agency and mistakes to avoid.
• Finding the right agency employee ownership option.
• Why successful ESOPs start with a foundation of good culture.

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Sponsors and Resources

Verblio: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Verblio. Check out Verblio.com/smartagency and get 50% off your first month of content creation. Our team loves using Verblio because of the ease of their process and their large pool of crowd-sourced writers.

Create Something Larger than Yourself with an Employee-Owned Structure

In a sense, Leeann grew up in the agency world. She was a child actor in several commercials, so she grew up around the business of advertising. At one point in her life, she swore off that world. However, she fell right back into it with account planning. Since then she has had a successful career working at both large and small agencies. Ten years ago she moved to Portland, Maine and became the CEO of a very interesting employee-run project.

When the agency was created, its three owners had a vision of creating something larger than themselves. This is why they named it VIA (Vision, Instinct, and Action) instead of something tied to the founders. Over the years, two of the partners left and, as the last one prepared to step away from his active role, the agency got a lot of acquisition offers. With Fortune 500 clients and awards for best culture, the agency was a valuable asset for any buyer. Instead, the remaining partner had something very different planned for his exit strategy. He set up an agreement whereby he would give the agency to the employees.

This was not a typical employee-ownership program. It was completely bespoke, with lawyers and accountants advising against it. However, they started a program measuring the agency’s performance each year and if they reached certain metrics, the owner would gift a portion of his ownership in the form of options.

The program, which they called VEEP (VIA's Employee Equity Program) was meant to last for ten years. Fortunately, they were actually able to do it all by year seven.

Finding the Right Agency Employee Ownership Structure

Seven years after starting VEEP, employees could convert their earned "options" into shares. This is when they realized the lawyers and accountants were right.

The original agreement had the best intentions; however, it didn’t take tax implications into consideration. The problem was that the conversion from options to shares was prohibitively expensive because of the agency's growth over the years. As a result, they were forced to reevaluate their situation.

They looked at many different types of structures that didn’t involve giving up their independence. In the end, they landed on an ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Program), a program overseen by the government. It has huge tax exceptions, so there are benefits for both the employer and employees. It is basically set up as a qualified retirement plan.

Now everyone at the agency is given more shares every year at no cost to themselves. That grows over time and, by the time they leave the agency, they’ll have something they can roll over into an IRA or cash out. This way, they’re actually earning as the agency grows and everyone is invested in the agency’s success.

3 ESOP Models Depending on the Owner’s Future Role in the Agency

Does the owner get paid out in an ESOP structure? The short answer is yes. Of course, they had to find a way to make it work both for him and the employees.

In VIA's case, the owner was paid out in two segments with a down payment and the rest over time. Technically, it was all done through a trust. They set up a trust that "bought" the agency and allocated shares to the employees. This way, the Board of Directors would still govern operationally while a Trustee Committee oversees the Board.

It was a complicated feat to pay out the owner and recognize the value he had gifted employees over the years. It involved a lot of legal math and the collaboration of many lawyers and accountants. Depending on how you structure it and what the owner wants their future role to be, they can still have residuals or be completely out.

The owner payout in an ESOP can work in 1 of 3 ways:

1. The owner receives 100% of the buyout through a note with an interest rate or participation in the ESOP.
2. It could be through a down payment to the owner and a note for the remainder.
3. Funding can be sourced from an outside, third-party.

Pros and Cons of an Agency ESOP

To take a similar route with your agency and have successful results, the first key is having the desire for everyone to benefit, as opposed to just the founder and a small executive team. This doesn’t mean they’ll all benefit equally but rather in an equally fair manner based on their contribution and compensation.

People get nervous around ESOPs because it generally involves taking on debt to buy out the founder. This debt gets paid first, even before the owner’s note, so the government knows you’re repaying it. Furthermore, you have to hold a certain amount of cash in reserves for when people redeem shares.

At Leeann’s agency, they set up the ESOP so only employees can hold shares, but this also means the agency needs to be ready to buy people out when they leave.

There are some ties to it for the employees, like paying a penalty if you decide to take out the shares before reaching a certain age. Nonetheless, the big benefit for the business is the ability to operate as a tax-free organization.

Investing in Good Culture and Commitment to the Agency’s Success

Being in a creative industry, it’s important to provide a work environment where employees feel motivated and inspired. The key to achieving this is keeping them happy. This agency invests in its happiness factor by providing its team the opportunity to work for themselves. It’s an interesting approach to the problem of employee engagement by offering benefits linking the overall agency’s performance to the team's personal gain.

Of course, this structure is not without risks. It’s built in a way in which, if you maintain a good culture and an engaged employee base, they’ll be invested in the agency’s success. If people are not engaged and it’s just a job to them, then it all falls apart. On the contrary, if they understand the agency’s success is their success, then odds are it won’t fall apart.

To ensure they give a space where employees can voice their concerns, VIA introduced VN Voices. It’s a new figure apart from the Board of Directors and the Trustee committee called the Associates’ Panel. They’re a group of seven volunteers who represent the employees. They raise issues affecting the team and bring them to the Board and Trustees.

A Successful ESOP Starts with a Foundation of Good Culture 

If you’re interested in creating something similar to the model Leeann’s agency came up with, she recommends having a well-established culture. “It’s just not something you can create on top of it,” she says. VIA already had a culture of investing in happiness, people, and fun. They invest a ton in mental health and creating an equitable environment to introduce diversity. Investing in your culture is a good way to invest in your agency’s future. “No matter where you land, you’ll be passing on something more complete if you invest in the culture,” Leeann assures.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Would you like access to our advanced agency training for FREE? https://www.agencymastery360.com/training

Do you have a plan to protect your agency and team in the event of illness, injury, or death?? What would you do if your partner died? What if you were hurt or sick and unable to work? How much of your agency is dependent upon you for the day-to-day operations? As agency owners, we often think about our exit plan, but it's also important to plan for the unexpected.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• 2 things to protect your agency from the unexpected.
• The key to protecting your agency's acquisition.

Today I sat down for an interesting chat with Eric Meyers, former CEO of a $40 million digital marketing agency. Back then, Eric found himself trying to navigate a pending merger as well as a transfer of ownership after the sudden death of his agency's founder. He's here to talk about what he learned through the process and what you can do to protect your agency from the unexpected.

2 Things to Protect Your Agency from the Unexpected

Take a minute to think about what your agency's future looks like. Where do you want to be in 5, 10, or 20 years? Is that future still possible in the event of a sudden illness or injury of an agency leader? What about the death of your business partner? These things aren't fun to think about, but the truth is when you own a business you have to consider and plan for the unexpected.

When Eric took the role of CEO at an agency, he never expected the founder would be involved in a tragic accident after only three months on the job, but that's what happened. As a result, the owner's family took control of the agency. From there, a pending merger fell apart and the agency went up for sale within six months. So how can you protect your agency from unforeseen changes?

1. Create a Buy/Sell Agreement. If you have a partner, a solid Buy/Sell Agreement is critical. It protects both partners' interests and keeps things simple during times of uncertainty. You signed up to work with your business partner, not his or her family. A Buy/Sell Agreement helps ensure you have the funds to buy out your partner's family so you retain control over your agency.
2. Purchase disability insurance. Would your agency survive if you had to take a sudden leave of absence due to an injury? Would you be able to pay your own bills? This one may seem obvious but it's often overlooked. It's a low-cost way to protect your business and your family.

The Key to Protecting Your Agency's Acquisition

One of the major problems at Eric's agency is the acquisition fell through at the last minute. This could have been prevented by a rock-solid Letter of Intent. A Letter of Intent helps all parties understand what they are getting out of the purchase of the agency. Eric says you shouldn't assume you can do it on your own. You need someone guiding the process and helping you navigate the unknown. It's even a good idea to make sure you have legal representation to look over paperwork and contracts.

Another way to protect yourself is to set up an escrow account with the Letter of Intent. The amount in escrow depends on the amount of the sale. Then, if everything before the Letter of Intent turns out to be true and one of the parties backs out, the other party receives financial compensation.

Don't forget, an agency sale is not the time to slow down. You need to keep your foot on the gas. You need to excel servicing existing clients and continue to fill your pipeline. That way, in the event the sale falls through, your agency is in a good position to thrive.

Nobody likes to think about the worst-case scenario, but as a business owner, you have no choice. When you take the time to make sure you have the necessary precautions in place, you're investing in your agency's future.

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What is the one key thing that is holding you back from know your agency’s value? For many it’s having the financial literacy necessary to build an agency worth buying. Today’s featured guest learned that financial literacy can make or break an exit strategy. Despite his early start in business and formal education, it was the guidance of an outsourced CFO that truly transformed his understanding of business finances. This knowledge proved invaluable years later during acquisition negotiations and his successful exit.

From his teenage ventures in website development to building a thriving digital agency, and ultimately, to negotiating a successful exit on his own terms, join us as we explore the beginnings his agency and essential lessons on the importance of financial literacy, knowing your worth, and preparing for life after the sale.

Brian Rodriguez is the founder of Gatorworks, a digital marketing partner that helps clients reach their goals and keep them informed. He recounts how he stumbled into agency ownership while in high school in 2001, a time when many businesses lacked an online presence. Brian discusses balancing his agency while pursuing his business degree, how hiring an outsourced CFO completely transformed his understanding of how to run a business, and how knowing his agency’s value helped him negotiate a favorable exit deal.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Boosting confidence and clarity by understanding the numbers.

• Negotiating a successful strategic exit by knowing your agency’s value.

• Why knowing when to let go is important in a successful exit.

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Sponsors and Resources

Agency Owner Training: If running your agency is leaving you feeling isolated and trapped, it’s time to get a little FREE help to take back control. That is why we are offering free resources HERE at agencymastery360.com/training. You will find free courses on generating more leads and converting more clients. No strings attached, just a few helpful resources get you out of the weeds and back to growing your agency.

Boosting Confidence and Clarity by Understanding the Numbers

Brian started his agency as a high school student back in 2001, when he was just a kid experimenting with new technologies.

Though he soon found clients and started to charge $200 for building a website, he quickly realized his strengths lay not in design or development, but in the business aspects of the work. Hence, he started recruiting freelancers to handle the technical work while he focused on client acquisition.

Throughout college, Brian continued running his fledgling agency, applying his business studies to strengthen its foundation. After graduation, with youth on his side and nothing to lose, he decided to dedicate himself fully to growing the business. Yet success didn't come overnight – it took five years before he started seeing meaningful momentum.

The early years proved challenging, marked by financial struggles and an evolving business model. This changed in 2011 when he hired an outsourced CFO, a decision that marked a turning point in his understanding of the financial dimensions of his business.

During their first four-hour session together, Brian gained crucial insights into his agency's financial workings that transformed his perspective as a business owner. This newfound financial clarity not only boosted his confidence but also provided him with a clearer vision for his agency's future direction.

Pivoting to Stability by Changing Projects to Predictable Revenue

Brian's monthly meetings with his CFO became a cornerstone of his professional development, transforming his approach to business management. Through these sessions, he developed a deep understanding of crucial KPIs: top-line revenue, cost of goods sold, gross profit, overhead expenses, and net income. This knowledge enabled him to set concrete financial targets, including a 50% gross margin and 15% net margin, shifting his focus from simple revenue growth to sustainable profitability.

During this period of financial enlightenment, Brian also recognized a fundamental challenge in his business model: the instability of project-based work. This realization prompted a strategic pivot to SEO and Google Ads services that would provide the predictable revenue streams necessary for stable, long-term growth. This way, slowly evolved to an entire suite of digital marketing services that ended up being a game changer for his agency.

How Financial Literacy Led to a Successful Strategic Exit

By 2016, Brian had built his agency into a thriving business generating nearly $1 million in revenue. With stable profits and predictable growth, he wasn't actively seeking to sell, after years of receiving offers that simply weren’t the right fit. This changed once a respected local media company, owner of five radio stations and boasting a century-long legacy, made an unexpected approach.

Brian approached the situation with cautious optimism. Despite the allure of a potential deal, he remained grounded, taking meetings with the mindset of learning rather than selling and viewing the process as an opportunity for growth rather than merely a transactional exchange.

The company's representatives consistently aligned with his vision, supporting his desire to maintain his brand identity, retain his team, and preserve his autonomy in steering the agency's future. However, when negotiations began in earnest, their initial offers failed to meet his expectations.

After eight months of back-and-forth, the breakthrough came when they asked Brian to specify his desired price range. Though initially hesitant about meeting his terms, they returned within two days ready to negotiate. The subsequent discussions led to a proposal that matched Brian's valuation.

Brian's experience underscores the importance of financial literacy for entrepreneurs, whether you seek it through formal channels or mentorship. Had he not taken the time to understand his business's financials and what he deemed a fair valuation, he might have accepted an offer that did not reflect his hard work and dedication.

Knowing When to Let Go is Just as Important as Knowing Your Value

Seven years after selling his agency, Brian remains with the acquiring company – a rare outcome that extends well beyond his initial four-year employment contract.

The acquisition process itself, while intense, proved surprisingly accommodating. During the 90-day due diligence period, the buyers demonstrated flexibility by considering not just financial metrics but also intangible assets like goodwill, ultimately strengthening the deal's value.

After that, it took him a while to realize it was time to let go. For some time after the sale, he operated exactly as he would while still being the owner. It was only once the pandemic started that he realized there were things he could let go now that his role has changed post-sale.

His experience offers valuable lessons for agency owners contemplating a sale. While having a clear valuation number is crucial for effective negotiations, equally important is defining your desired post-sale lifestyle. Whether you envision staying on as an employee-shareholder or pursuing an entirely new path, the key lies not just in securing a favorable deal, but in being prepared to adapt to your new role once the papers are signed.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

Looking to dig deeper into your agency's potential? Check out our Agency Blueprint. Designed for agency owners like you, our Agency Blueprint helps you uncover growth opportunities, tackle obstacles, and craft a customized blueprint for your agency's success.

How are you branding your agency? Do you treat the agency like a client and market purposefully? Your agency’s brand is much more than just a name or logo. The way you brand your impacts the type of clients you attract. A rebrand can be daunting. However, sometimes it’s the best way to regain control and attract your ideal clients. Today’s guest purchased an agency and decided to strip it down and rebuild the agency she envisioned. She shares the reasons for the rebrand and some of the surprising results in her team and marketing efforts.

Avril Tomlin-Hood is the CEO and Founder of boa, a Vancouver-based digital marketing agency specializing in media buying. After committing to elevate companies that want to effect positive change, boa now works exclusively with plant-based and sustainable brands. She recalls why she decided to rebrand her agency after six years and her surprising new role at the agency she enjoys more than expected.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Rebranding to build the agency you really want.
• How a mastermind helps combat isolation.
• The surprising way a podcast can change your agency.
• Why you shouldn't forget to invest in your agency.

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Sponsors and Resources

Dot & Co: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Dot & Co, client management specialists that will help digital marketing agencies keep their clients happy. With the help of their knowledgeable account managers, agency owners can step away from the day-to-day and focus on driving results. Check out dotandcompany.co/smartagency and get 20% off your first month working with them.

Rebranding to Build the Agency You Really Want

Ten years ago, Avril worked at a media buying agency. After four years there, the owner was ready to move on to other things, so Avril took over and bought the agency. The agency has gone through a few iterations doing white labeling services and branded agency work.

A year ago, after a failed employee acquisition, she realized it was time to invest in the agency’s brand to be in more control. In hindsight, the acquisition was never going to work because the structure didn't allow for independence. Once the deal fell through, she knew it was time to try something different and focused her energy on an agency rebrand.

Years after acquiring the agency, she had never really invested in the brand. It was sort of just there while the actual work had shifted to white labeling services. Hence, despite having owned the agency for many years it never felt like it was actually hers.

She renamed it boa and decided to focus less on white labeling and more on media buying. The shift also includes working exclusively in a niche of brands that want to have a positive impact on the planet.

Finding an Agency Community to Help Set Goals and Combat Isolation

Lots of agency owners feel like they're making decisions on an island. The game changer for Avril is following a friend’s advice to get a coach. This way, she got the help she needed to figure out her goals, strategy, and the support she needed to get there.

Furthermore, joining a mastermind like Agency Mastery made a big difference when it came to combating isolation. The community really helped her work through her feelings of being stuck. It also helped her see the options and opportunities for the future, by meeting people who were three or five years ahead in their agency journey.

Finding an Integrator and Focusing on Building a Leadership Team

We all know how hard it can be to find great people. One of Avril's most significant successes in this area was hiring a trusted "right-hand" person who has been moving into an operations position. This person fills the role of the Integrator and her addition to the team has been a game-changer for the agency operations.

Avril's own role as Visionary has helped her have a clear and defined vision for the agency. She is no longer in the weeds and can focus on the agency rather than being stuck in it. This is something she now communicates to her team. She focuses more on reaching the agency's goals and measuring KPIs that matter in the process.

Avril believes growth is all about building a leadership team. Right now, she requires all hires to have leadership potential so they can manage a team in the future.

The Surprising Way Starting a Podcast Can Change Your Business

Recently, Avril has added podcast host to her role. Starting a podcast wasn't in the original plan but she has found it is a great way to grow her agency's audience. It was hard to get her head around the concept and she didn’t know what she would talk about on the show.

In the end, she realized the podcast didn’t have to focus on what the agency does. It should focus on her target audience, which is why she interviews innovative and sustainable brands.

The podcast has actually made it easier for her to reach out to her ideal clients. Instead of sending a cold email, she invites them to the podcast as a thought leader on sustainable brands. It’s a smart strategy for business development. It has also helped her understand the importance of branding herself, which wasn't a priority at first. Now she sees branding herself can be very beneficial for the agency as well.

Growth Takes Investment and Getting Out of Your Comfort Zone

For a long time, Avril was really good about keeping solid profit margins. However, this also meant she was limiting the agency’s growth. Staying in your comfort zone is not necessarily best for agency growth.

If you’re feeling too comfortable, you’re probably not pushing enough. Growth takes investment, which is something Avril is taking seriously by treating the agency like a client. Now when they look at investments like media planning, marketing planning, etc. the agency is included.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Do you offer too many agency services? Are you trying to be a jack-of-all-trades, making you the master of none? Does your broad service offering dilute your team's focus? Today's guest is an e-commerce expert whose agency works exclusively with one e-commerce platform he believes is better than the rest. In this interview, he talks about what's next in e-commerce and what you should look to improve in your website.

Guillaume Le Tual is the Founder and CEO of MageMontreal, an agency committed to building powerful e-commerce websites to increase clients' sales. They work exclusively with the Magento platform. Why? According to Guillaume, the agency tried working with other platforms and found Magento is the best open source e-commerce platform on the market.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Narrowing your agency's service offering.
• Hiring for culture fit and values.
• Niching down to avoid diluting your team's focus.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions, a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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Podcast Takeover!!

Get to know your Smart Agency Guest Host:  Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the co-founder of Rise25, an agency that helps companies launch and run podcasts profitably. He followed Jason’s podcast and eventually joined the mastermind and has been a guest on the podcast before. Today, he’s helping Jason bring something new to the Smart Agency podcast audience by interviewing a special guest and bringing a new perspective to the show.

Narrowing Your Service Offering and Focusing on a Horizontal Niche

Guillaume started his career as a visual artist building background art for clients like The National Bank of Canada and Warner Bros. He gained experience in web design, digital marketing, and e-commerce and eventually decided to start his agency, MageMontreal.

According to Guillaume, he and his team tried dozens of other e-commerce platforms before settling on working exclusively as a Magento agency.  They offer complete e-commerce website design and development, maintenance, and integration of Magento with third-party software.

Now, they are one of very few Magento-certified agencies in Canada and can see the best decision for their business was focusing on one very specific niche and cutting down on their service offering to be the very best at just one. Remember, a niche can be a specific market (vertical niche) or a specific skillset (horizontal niche).

What’s Next in E-Commerce?

Guillaume says we’re still a long way from truly developing AI to what we’ve seen in movies. Most companies are not at a point where they are truly using AI. However, it is used in for things like product recommendations. Using Adobe Sensei, for example, users can get product recommendations based on shopper behavior, popular trends, and product similarity. If a suggestion does not convert into a sale, next time it will make a different suggestion, which indicates that the machine is learning. That would be the low-hanging fruit available right now. It can also be used to improve the search bar, for example, to get more relevant search results.

It’s really a step-by-step process to integrate this technology into your company. It requires prior steps like cleaning up your data and standardizing your processes to be able to implement this. After implementing marketing automation at every step of your email process and onboarding process, the next level would be using AI to help you run that.

There’s also some interesting work done with progressive web apps (PWA). Basically, this is a hybrid between a native app and a website so you get the benefits of both. So even though it’s a website, in terms of maintenance you don’t have to constantly download the latest version of the app. It’s a website, so you always have the latest content. It also has some limited offline capabilities. And it includes push notifications for marketing like you would have with a native app.

Hiring For Values and Resourcefulness

When it comes to his hiring process, Guillaume prioritizes the agency’s values. He recommends not overcomplicating it and having a list of three or four things the candidates must comply with. “Do not compromise when it comes to your values,” he advises. Whether it’s sales or HR, if the candidate does not meet these requirements, they’re not the right fit for your agency. Also, take your time with the process if you have to because rushing leads to mistakes.

Above all, he prioritizes a strong work ethic and desire to provide the best possible service. He asks candidates to provide examples of times they feel they provided excellent customer service. He also looks for resourcefulness. Sometimes it can be an issue when an employee comes from a big company to work at a smaller agency. They might be accustomed to having more resources, and it’s important to Guillaume the employees show they can figure out creative solutions without those resources.

Replacing Yourself in the Daily Agency Operations

He recently hired a Head of Project Management, an operations role not yet running without him. Originally, he was going to hire from within but was surprised to find an outside person who fit this role.

After making sure it was a good fit for the agency, he delegated tasks and immediately saw a difference. It was a game changer between when he organized everything a having a person with operational expertise. With someone in charge of organizing the pile of things to do and delivering on all of it, he completely removed himself from the client services process.

Stop Diluting Your Team's Focus and Be an Expert

Do you offer a very wide set of services? Looking back, that was MageMontreal. They handled everything from website building and design, SEO, pay-per-click, social media, IT support. At one point, Guillaume checked Apple’s website and realized he offered more services than Apple.

He decided at that point this needed to change because doing too much was diluting his team’s time and focus. You can successfully offer such a wide variety of services, but you need a staff of hundreds in order to do it properly. So, he decided to cut down his offering and focused on just their expertise. Overall, his agency helps clients with website building and some consulting. However, for other services like marketing and hosting they usually refer clients to their partner agencies.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Are you planning to sell your agency at some point in the future? How are you preparing to make the process easier for yourself and your team? Our guest for this episode created a lifestyle business that allowed her to lead the life she wanted. When she decided to sell, she realized the business was already set up to work without her, which made for a pretty seamless selling process when the time for an acquisition came along

Jodie Cook is an entrepreneur, writer, and athlete who started as a freelance social media manager. She created and successfully ran her social media agency, JC Social Media, for ten years -- even growing it during the pandemic. She's sharing the story of how she grew her agency and sold it, without an earnout, in 2021.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• Why she decided to sell her lifestyle business.
• How she prepared for the selling process.
• Why you should hire a broker.

Sponsors and Resources

E2M Solutions: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by E2M Solutions. E2M is a web design and development agency that has provided white label services for the past 10 years to agencies all over the world. Check out e2msolutions.com/smartagency and get 10% off for the first three months of service.

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Building and Growing Her Agency

As often happens with agency owners, Jodie started as a freelancer and went on to create her agency once she had too much work to handle on her own. To promote services, she went to networking events telling people she was a social media manager until she got a few clients. After a while, she got to a point where she had a full-time job worth of work for herself and could choose between continuing as a freelancer or building a team.

As for hiring, Jodie says she stuck to hiring other social media managers. It was a role she knew and could evaluate and train for and as a result, she developed a successful training process.

However, she also sees her agency could only ever grow as far as her own knowledge would allow. And in hindsight, it would've made sense to scale by hiring for roles that are not her strength.

Setting Up a Lifestyle Business

Agency owners get into the business for various reasons but at some point, we can all expect to have some degree of freedom. Jodie found herself as the owner of a big agency where everything relied on her and didn’t feel happy. This is when she did something that would change her life and her agency. She created a document with four columns where each column represented a step for how the business would start to change to a lifestyle business that could run without her.

This was a very important exercise that would later allow her to be better prepared for a sale later on. The four columns contained:

1. Every single process that happened at the agency
2. Who was in charge of every task (at that moment, it was pretty much all her)
3. Who would be in charge in the future (either by getting promoted or looking for a new hire)
4. Her plan (actions she needed to take and even dates)

Growing the Agency Through the Pandemic and Beyond

Back in March 2020, just as the world changed with the pandemic, Jodie had been running her agency as a lifestyle business. She usually traveled for a couple of months of the year and the business ran very well. She was no longer needed there all the time for things to work correctly.

This all came crashing down with the start of the pandemic. Clients in the hospitality and travel sectors were suddenly out of business and the agency shrunk by about 25% in one week. The shift meant Jodie got back to being very much involved in the business.

Initially, she tried to figure out how to make a shift in the changing economy. This included a decision on whether or not to lay off part of her 16-member team. After a team meeting, they decided to carry on, secure the clients they still had, and work to look for new clients.

The agency offered online webinars, replacing all their in-person events, and started to build the business back up. They not only managed to get back to where the business was before March 2020, they actually grew past it.

Preparing to Sell a Social Media Agency

With the agency back on track, Jodie asked herself what was next. She could easily go back to having a lifestyle business, but she really didn’t want to be pulled back by another emergency like this one. So she made the decision to sell in August 2020.

Once she got intentional about an acquisition, Jodie started to reach out to people that knew more about the subject and could point her in the right direction. The key is not discussing an agency sale with your team and just having a small group of trusted people who can help you navigate the process. Keeping it quiet until you have signed agreements saves you from hearsay and speculation by your clients and team.

She eventually started working with a broker who clarified how to prepare for the sale process. Basically, it entailed setting up processes, a second tear management team, and documentation. Jodie was relieved to see most of this was already in place because of how she set up the agency to begin with.

This gave her the opportunity to sell faster and be comfortable meeting with potential acquirers. She wasn’t selling in a desperate moment, loved her team, and actually raved about them so it was genuinely easy to convince buyers how great her agency was. Furthermore, this helped her feel more like she was interviewing the buyers instead of them interviewing her.

Successful Interviews with Potential Buyers

When discussing either a sale like this or even interviewing prospective clients, you want to feel in control. The person who is more eager to speak and prove themselves has lost control of the meeting. A possible buyer might even think you have something to hide if you seem too anxious.

As Jason advises, you want them to speak first because whoever speaks last is now in control of the meeting. Also, this way you can listen to them talk about their agencies and their plans for the future. Jodie listened to potential buyers first and then offered relevant information about the agency. If she had spoken first, she would probably go on tangents that didn’t really matter to them, which could ruin the meeting entirely.

Letting the potential acquirer speak first also gives you time to evaluate them to see if their agency is a good fit with yours. Remember, culture fit is one of the most important aspects of a successful acquisition.

Selling Your Agency Without an Earnout

All in all, the purchase process took six months, which is pretty quick for this type of transaction. There were two months of meetings with potential buyers. This was followed by two months of heads of terms with three of them, and then two more months of due diligence.

Initially, the three offers they got included an earnout and tied the purchase of the business to Jodie's role in earnout period. Basically, they wanted her to take care of the team and sales which would get her more involved in the business rather than stepping away, which was the goal.

Ultimately, she was able to convince the buyers against the earnout. Clients tend to grow attached to agency owners in the sales process and they only want to deal with them. They agreed to have no earnout and the handover process took two weeks.

It takes a lot of confidence to get the deal you feel is best for you. Don’t be scared into accepting the first offer-- have a number in mind before negotiations begin and be prepared to wait for it.

Is it Important to Get an M&A Broker?

Jodie did consider handling the sale by herself. If you commit to learning everything you need to learn for this process, it may be the best course for you and your agency. However, looking at the hours she would have to invest into this each day (at least 10 or 12) she decided labor would be best put into continuing to grow her agency. She opted to look for and hire a broker.

If you’re working with a broker, remember they are incentivized to get you a sale but not necessarily to get you the best possible deal. Sometimes brokers won’t educate you on whether you could be making a better deal, so remember to learn as much as you can about the process. Have the confidence to say no and wait for a better offer. It will save you a lot of regrets.

When looking to hire a broker, Jodie discovered many don't charge based on the completion of the sale. They charge a monthly fee and hence they may not necessarily be as invested in selling your agency. Because of this, she made sure to ask for completion rates and chose someone with a very high completion rate.

Jason also recommends using a broker that charges an upfront fee, another fee once you get to the LOI, and a percentage of the exit. No recurring fee. This means they have more skin in the game are more invested in selling your agency.

Life After Selling Your Agency

Life after your agency’s sale could be more difficult to adapt to than you imagine. A lot of agency owners feel depressed and purposeless after selling their life’s work, and it’s understandable. Your "why" for selling should be very clear from the beginning. Additionally, you should start planning for your post-sale life and have other projects in mind so you can find your new purpose.

Jodie visualized the sale and had in mind the exact amount she wanted from the sale. She also had plans to travel and start a new stage of her life. It looked slightly different than she had planned, as it was still the middle of the COVID restriction. However, she took the time to figure things out and even wrote a book, Ten Year Career.

Niching Down to Be a  Successful Social Media Agency

When she first started her agency in 2011 she says it was still possible to be a general social media agency. That is something she would change if starting an agency today. “I don’t believe you can be a general social media agency. I believe you have to have a niche,” she says. She would choose a vertical and horizontal niche. Then her agency would be experts in a specific space like Instagram for restaurants or TikTok for dentists.

Want the Support of Amazing Digital Agency Owners?

Do you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency? Then go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

Would you like to build authority with a speaking career? Want to generate new agency business from a stage, unsure how to get speaking engagements? As an agency owner, speaking can be lucrative when you’re speaking at the right events and to the right audience. However, there are some things you should be clear on before you begin. Today’s guest has been a public speaker for over a decade and now prepares others for the speaking life. He shares a few tips on how to start your journey to build a successful speaking career.

Grant Baldwin has been in the speaking industry for most of his career. He now runs a speaker coaching company called Speaker Lab, where he teaches people how to find and book paid speaking engagements. After being a full-time speaker for ten years, he was frequently asked what it takes to make it as a speaker. So he decided to start teaching the ins and outs of finding and booking speaking gigs.

In this episode, we'll discuss:

• The five steps to building a speaking career.
• Knowing where to find your audience.
• Strategies to get noticed by event planners.
• Money is not the only way to get your value back.

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5-Step Roadmap to Build a Successful Speaking Career

Booking speaking engagements is a great way to build your personal brand. It's also a great way to build your agency’s brand and attract more clients. Grant teaches the Speaker Success Roadmap which goes through the five S.P.E.A.K steps to help you build your speaking career:

S - select a problem to solve: This is a good first step for any type of future speaker. You should be able to answer: Who do I speak to? What problem am I solving for that audience? Many agency owners make the mistake of wanting to cast the net as far and wide as possible. People who do this tend to say they speak to “people” and have a message for everyone. The more clear and focused you are, the easier it is to find and book gigs.

It may seem counterintuitive but focus on being really good at one thing. Doing this makes it easier to book gigs on a consistent basis. You may think that big agency personalities like Gary Vaynerchuck tend to speak to everyone, but it hasn’t always been like that. Gary actually started off talking to wine people. That’s how he started building his brand. Once you get start building your brand, you can branch out to broader audiences.

P- prepare your talk: This step is about being very clear about the solution you’re providing to the audience’s needs. What are you doing to provide this solution? Will it be through webinars, seminars, or maybe keynotes? They all work; it’s just about being clear on the means of delivery that works best in your case, for your audience.

E - establish yourself as the expert: Two key marketing assets all speakers need are a website and a demo video. Your demo video is like a movie trailer, a short video (2-3 minutes) that sparks people’s interest. This video helps event planners get a sense of your style and whether or not you’ll fit with their audience.

A - acquire paid speaking gigs: This is the part you want to fast-forward to. A common mistake speakers make at this point is doing nothing. They have the first three steps so they figure now they just sit and wait. Unfortunately, it just doesn’t work like that. You need to have a system and a process in place to actively reach out to at least five events and generate momentum.

K - know when to scale: A lot of people interested in speaking are also interested in writing or consulting. Of course, it is possible to do all these things, but Grant argues not all at once. It is up to each person to figure out how speaking fits into their overall plans and goals.

Building Your Speaking Brand by Knowing Where to Find Your Audience

In his case, Grant has a website for his agency and a different one to promote his speaking brand. Both websites point to each other and serve two different purposes. If a potential client wants to learn how to get more speaking gigs, they’re directed to Speak Lab. If they want to hire Grant as a speaker, they’re directed to his personal page.

However, once you know who your audience is and have a website, you can’t just post the link on social media and wait for clients to come. When you’re clear about who you’re speaking to, it’s easier to find events where you could potentially speak.

Where does your audience gather? If you’re running a digital agency, you probably already have an idea of the types of events, gatherings, and associations they are attending. Once that’s clear, it’s a matter of reaching out to the event planner and conferences and starting a conversation about why you’re a good fit for their audience. It’s not about convincing them to hire a speaker; they were already going to do that. It’s more about presenting yourself as the best option.

Like with agency clients, you may reach out and find the planner is not hiring at the moment. Nonetheless, reaching out and starting a conversation is a good strategy and requires discipline and commitment.

How to Make Contact and Standout from Other Speakers

According to Grant, you can focus on events you’ve personally attended before. In this case, you may already know the event planner or can get an introduction if you know another speaker at the event. Speaking is very much a momentum business; the more you speak the more gigs you’ll continue to book. Initially, it may feel like you’re pushing a boulder uphill. But if you plant enough seeds, you’ll see some results.

Simple strategies like sending an email can be perfectly effective too. Grant has booked many events by cold emailing people. However, if you’re sending a 90-paragraph email about how awesome you are, no one will read that. The goal of an email is to get a reply -- keep it short and simple. That is the type of email most likely to get a reply.

Of course, short and simple doesn’t mean vague. Instead of asking “are you hiring speakers?” you can ask for more detailed information. Mention you came across a conference they’re having and were curious to know when they’ll start reviewing speakers for it.

How to stand out: What if you get a reply saying the review process won’t start for another two months? Then that’s an opportunity to ask if it’s ok to reach out again in two months. They’ll say yes to that because they don’t actually expect you to do it. Very few would. So when you actually reach back, you’ll be showing them what it’s like to work with you and giving them reasons to consider you.

Why You Shouldn’t Speak for Free

Speaking for free is okay, as long as you know why we’re doing it. Some speakers may think they’re doing it from the goodness of their hearts and someday they’ll get the return. Speakers are not running a non-profit, they’re running a business and they should treat it as such. As a speaker, you are providing something of value and it’s important to receive something of value in return.

This value may or may not be in the form of a check. For example as an agency owner, speaking at the right event might land you three new clients. This is worth more than what the event would have paid you.

Grant has even offered to speak at an event for free or at a discount on the condition that the event planner introduces him to other event planners. Getting introductions that can lead to other gigs is valuable to him.

Will Speaking be an Important Part of Your Business?

Agency owners looking to build a speaking career should be clear about the role they want it to have in their lives and their agency. There are speakers who do hundreds of gigs per year and others who do three. Both are fine. Just try to figure out which one works for your lifestyle and your agency.

Speaking can be a very lucrative way to grow an agency, and it should be treated like it. Try to treat it like a serious part of your business plan if you’re expecting it to bring great results for your agency.

Are You Looking for a Mentor or Trusted Advisors? 

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to the Digital Agency Elite to learn all about our exclusive mastermind.

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Are you struggling to capture those big fish clients? Does it feel like your agency is constantly battling for every account? We've all been there! You've still got some growing pains. But, what if you could skip those growing pains and go right to be big leagues? Here's how one agency owner made his first client Kobe Bryant.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to score big agency clients.
• 3 reasons your agency should hire some freelancers.
• #1 way for digital agencies to stay competitive.

Today, I talked with David Brickley, CEO of STN Digital and Host of The Business Of Social podcast. We all have our own unique origin story but, David's story is downright crazy. Not only did he score one of the biggest names in sports (Kobe Bryant!) as his very first client — he continues to work with some of the biggest names in sports and entertainment. James Harden, Shaq, Amazon, UFC, the Olympics, and even movie stars are his bread-and-butter. David's here to share his story about how you can grow your agency event while you're a small or mid-sized shop.

How to Score Big Agency Clients

What if I told you that David convinced Kobe Bryant to be his first client through a cold email? It's true! And, there's a lot we can all learn from that...

Scoring your first big client is all about taking chances. Get out there and chase them - because why couldn't it be you?

Forget about sticking to inbound and waiting for them to knock on your door. If there's something you want bad enough, get out there and chase it. And you know as well as I do — it only takes one big client to completely change the course of your agency.

Once you have a big name or a big brand, you can leverage them to get other big clients. It's the domino effect. And, winning with outbound doesn't require a big budget - it's all about the grind.

3 Reasons Your Agency Should Hire Some Freelancers

Don't worry - you don't need a huge team to serve big clients, you may just need to add some freelancers. The gig economy is in full swing. You can talented and highly skilled freelancers to work on a project basis. And here's why:

1. Freelancers give you tons of flexibility. You don't have to worry about onboarding for each unique client need. If your next client needs a little camera work done, you don't have to go out and hire someone for the one job. You can pay someone by-the-hour, and you never have to make a commitment.
2. Freelancers give you scale. What happens once you get your first big client? Do you have a team ready to handle their projects? If not, you've got an unlimited number of freelancers ready to tackle that project.
3. Freelancers are cost-effective. Does it really make sense to hire a full-time writer for 40 hrs a week to create a few blog posts? Do you really need a full-time animator? Freelancers allow the flexibility to pay-as-you-go on a project basis, without the overhead of full-time employees.

#1 Way For Digital Agencies to Stay Competitive

Every year, hundreds of agencies close their doors for good... and for most of them it's not intentional, but rather the result of lacking one basic thing. They didn't adapt.

The algorithms keep changing and what worked last week or last month or last year isn't cutting it. For example, EO isn't the same this year as last year. And, it could be wildly different next year. Digital agencies have to be flexible and they need to be constantly innovating.

If you aren't creating bigger, better, and more interesting things, you're headed down a dangerous road. You can't keep performing the same old tricks; you must keep things new and evolve to the needs of your audience.

Client retention isn't all about wooing them (although the right gifts don't hurt!) It's about providing them value with innovative solutions they can't find with anyone else.

How often do you look at your agency's churn rate? Do you know the lifetime value of a client? What are your client retention strategies? Do you dedicate time to client retention like you do to client acquisition? It all starts with monitoring the right metrics, understanding what clients really want, and being proactive in client services. Today’s guest is an agency sales and client service expert who manages end-to-end sales activities for a white-label agency. She shares the key metrics you should track and tips to help you master client retention.

Kushbu Doshi is the VP of Sales and Customer Service at E2M Solutions, a white-label agency with clients around the world. She is a customer service specialist with a passion for strategizing, making realistic action plans, and following up on their implementation to get real results for agencies. Kushbu has been on the show before to talk about how to improve your customer service.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• How to calculate client retention rate.
• Questions that lead to better client retention.
• Dedicating time to retain existing clients.
• Important KPIs to improve agency-client relationships.

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How to Calculate Your Agency's Client Retention Rate

The team at E2M Solutions has created metrics meant to track their performance in terms of client retention. The most important step to start getting a sense of how your team is doing with client retention is establishing your client retention rate. You can figure this out by establishing how many clients you have at the start of the quarter (S) and at the end of the quarter (E).

Client Retention Ratio = (E ÷ S) x 100

So basically, if you have 100 at the start of the quarter and 80 at the end of the quarter, your retention rate will be 80%. Ideally, your client retention should be above 75%. Any number below should be something you address with your team to find out what’s not working out.

Effective Ways to Master Client Retention

Client retention starts with the sales conversations and setting the right expectations from the very beginning. There are many things you could start doing at your agency to increase retention level.

For instance, after calculating your retention rate, you can appoint a client service person to start tracking client success. E2M decided client service has to be a stand-alone role instead of something handled by the project manager or the team working directly with the client.

This person ensures the client is happy and the agency is matching client expectations. They have keynotes for every client containing their goals for the next 1-3 years. These details help the agency determine how to work with the client, what may not work, and how to upsell or cross-sell new opportunities to extend the relationship.

Additionally, they also do periodic calls in which they go over expectations and progress. Basically, it’s about keeping an eye on your clients and staying curious about their plans for the future. Are they open to expanding services? What kind of niche do they want to target next?

Ask Bold Questions and Improve Client Communication

Kushbhu's team is trained to ask bold questions in the sales call to find out why clients want to be associated with their white-label agency. What are the major pain points her team will solve? If you can get clients to talk about their whys, you’ll come out confident about exactly what they want. Many times these conversations help reveal what the client thinks they want is not actually what they need.

Additionally, in most cases, clients are pleasantly surprised to receive this type of personalized attention. This type of action helps win trust and mutual respect.

Do You Dedicate Time to Retaining Existing Clients?

Kushbu strongly believes the time spent getting more leads should match the time spent retaining existing clients. After all, if your churn rate is high then what’s the point of just focusing on getting more clients?

The E2M Solutions team dedicates a specific day of the week to review existing clients' challenges. Are those clients working well with the current team? Are they matching the delivery times of previous weeks? A review of these metrics determines whether they’re on the right track to retain clients. The rest of the week is dedicated to new client acquisition.

Many people don’t focus on retention until they lose a few clients. Once they think they figured it out, they move on to the next issue. With a client service team in place, E2M always has dedicated efforts to client retention.

Using AI to Figure Out What Clients May Like

Kushbu and her team are starting to experiment with AI to see how to best utilize this tool. For now, they have been using ChatGPT to create personas and ask them about specific scenarios.

For instance, they have tried the command: “if you were a client success manager what would you do in this scenario?” They also share a client’s characteristics and preferences to then ask what it thinks their client would like. In Kushbu's experience, AI comes up with really good recommendations.

Important KPIs for Improving Agency Client Relationships

Other important KPIs are the Lifetime Value (LTV) and Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) ratios. Keeping track of these has helped the E2M Solutions team understand where they’re at and the kind of positioning they need. Another important metric is the average amount of time clients stay with you so you can increase the duration of the relationship.

Kushbu suggests agency owners use these metrics instead of relying solely on churn and retention ratios. It's important to always be looking at these numbers by calculating them every quarter instead of just at the end of the year.

Do You Want to Transform Your Agency from a Liability to an Asset?

If you want to be around amazing agency owners that can see what you may not be able to see and help you grow your agency, go to Agency Mastery 360.  Our agency growth program helps you take a 360-degree view of your agency and gain mastery of the 3 pillar systems (attract, convert, scale) so you can create predictability, wealth, and freedom.

Do you want to get free exposure from podcasts, influencer videos, and TV stations? Want to generate leads at no cost? Are you ready to start building your personal brand? Growing a digital agency is all about attention. You want to get in as many people's faces as possible. And you want them to think of you as an authority figure while they're watching. To do that, you need to step up your PR game.

• How to create a killer agency PR pitch.
• #1 branding mistake your digital agency is making.
• Why you need to be the face of your agency.
• 3 ways to up your content game.

Today, I talked with Christina Nicholson, founder of Media Maven — a media relations and PR agency. Christina worked as a reporter and TV anchor for over 10 years before she decided to "transition to the other side" (a.k.a, she jumped ship and created her own PR agency.) Today, Christina has a team of 7 people, and she pumps out an incredible amount of content ranging from podcasts to blog posts and YouTube videos. She's one of those agency owners than transcends their digital agency. And she didn't get there by accident.

How to Create a Killer PR Pitch

Whether you want to get on the news, on an influencer's YouTube channel, or on a podcast, you need a public relations pitch. Drop those old-school press releases in the trash can and draw up 6 or 7 sentences answering the following questions:

• What do you have to say?
• Why should anyone listen?
• What can you give the audience?
• Why is it relevant?
• Why is it important?

Try to make it topical. You may own a trash pickup service, but if you have some killer advice that is relevant to digital agency owners, you better believe I'll have you on my podcast. It's all about positioning. How can you take your experience, product, or service and apply them to a specific situation?

Look, if that trash pickup service owner tells me he understands how to sell his services to people, I'm not going to have him on the podcast. It just doesn't resonate with my audience (that's you!). But if he tells me he has tips on how to win clients with amazing on-the-spot pitches, regardless of the target audience, then he's in! It may be the same information, but positioning, phrasing, and application of that information are totally different.

#1 Branding Mistake Your Digital Agency is Making

Most agency owners spend a ton of time branding. But are you branding... YOU? Personal branding is massive in today's agency ecosystem. People like Gary Vee, Neil Patel, and Seth Godin have become more than their agency. They've become full-blown brands. And that's what your clients expect.

Christina says you have to practice what you preach. You have to have the authority, social proof, and credibility to get clients to trust you and your agency. People want to work with people, not nameless agencies.

How do you self brand?

Treat yourself as a client. Take time out of your busy schedule to brand yourself. Start a podcast, pump out some videos, or start making incredible blog posts.

Having a personal brand breeds trust with clients and your team. Leverage your talents and make an identity for yourself. What happens when you Google your name? Does your bland LinkedIn profile popup? If so, you've got some work to do!

Why You Need To Be the Face of Your Agency

Once you start mastering personal branding, people are going to turn to you first. When prospects look at your agency, they're going to have you in mind. So what happens when every client starts asking to work with you directly? It's just not possible! You need to be the face of your agency. But you should never be the voice.

Let clients know you have an incredible team to help them. And, your team is their touchpoint. Also, let them know you take a personal interest in every account. You get the emails forwarded to you, and you're working on the backend to make stuff happen. But you simply can't be there to field their questions or touch base with them. Set those expectations early. Honestly, your clients will be ok with it.

The best example of this is Gary Vaynerchuk and VaynerMedia. Gary Vee isn't going to personally oversee your account. He is the face of the agency and his clients know they aren't going to work directly with him. Your clients secretly know that too. Just make sure you set those expectations early.

3 Ways to Up Your Content Game

Christina says you need tons of content in order to build your personal brand. But putting out tons of content is time-consuming, expensive, and difficult, right? So how do you do it?

1. Use other people's content. You don't have to create and share your own content. When Christina knows this podcast is live, you better believe she's going to share it on social media. Why? Because it brands her! It's ok to share other people's content. It's even better if you were involved. This goes back to PR pitches. If you can get on those podcasts and social channels, you can share that content to brand yourself.
2. Recycle your content. It's not a sin to share the same piece of content 2, 3, or 20 times. We're in a content-stuffed world. Think about how many pieces of content pop up on your social feeds and how many YouTube videos get recommended to you every day. Your audience is going to miss some of your content. So, as long as it's still relevant, share it again! And keep sharing the same content year-after-year. You may have new people in your audience, or you may have people who missed it the first time around.
3. Multiply your content. Did you create your first YouTube video? Sweet! You have 4 pieces of content now. How? You can multiply the content to make... more content. Check it out. With one long-form video, you can:
   • slice up a few promos from the video to share on Instagram and LinkedIn.
   • embed the long-form video on your site.
   • upload the long-form video to Facebook and IGTV.
   • create a blog post from the video.

You can stretch your content creation efforts by creating multiple pieces of content at once. Do more with less!

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How do you make decisions when there are multiple agency partners? Can you truly grow without second-guessing the big decisions? How do you grow an agency with multiple partners? Should you build from within or use acquisition as a growth strategy? When there are many decision-makers at an agency it can be a challenge to agree on the best way to grow. But with mutual respect and a yin-yang of strengths, it can work.

In today’s episode, we’ll cover:

• Can things really work with multiple agency partners?
• Using acquisition as an agency growth strategy.
• Deciding on when and which agency to acquire.
• How to get through an economic recession.

I chatted with Peter Bishop, Partner and Director at ZGM Marketing Partners in Canada. He has been in digital marketing for over 20+ years and, as it turns out, we share a ton of old-school experience on the evolution of design software. But, now as a partner at ZGM, he is on the show to share what he’s learned about sharing partnership with four others as well as how they use acquisition as a growth strategy.

Can Things Really Work with Multiple Agency Partners?

Having one owner can be great or it can be awful. We all have biases but when it comes to agencies, they are led by creative souls and that is usually the backbone of an agency. As Peter points out, creatives aren’t usually awesome at finance or other business skills. Having a partnership that balances each other out is usually beneficial.

Peter’s agency partnerships include a creative person, financial person, an accounts person... so everyone brings something different to the table. There are rarely problems among them, but when there is a problem it’s a big problem.

How To Get Through Partner Disagreements

Peter says the agency partnership is like any relationship. When there’s mutual respect you can get through anything. Although ZGM has five partners, there is one partner who has stepped away from day-to-day involvement and is more like a silent investor.

The partners involve him in the bigger decisions and Peter says, he’s become like the wise grandfather figure. He is more objective and also calls bullshit on them when necessary. Every partnership needs this type of unbiased person, board of advisors, or even a mastermind who is looking out for the best interest of the agency.

We can’t do it all by ourselves, so having others helping and guiding is the best way to build and grow. Holding things close to your chest is no longer the way to do business. When we all share, we all develop and grow. Providing advice to others can also provide clarity for yourself.

Using Acquisition as an Agency Growth Strategy

ZGM has used acquisition as a growth strategy and Peter attributes much of their growth to this decision. They've acquired three agencies so far, and each time there’s an acquisition he feels significant growth in clients and staff, as well as in top-line revenue.

Culture is key and it’s one of the first things ZGM looks at before considering an acquisition. It sounds cliche it’s true - culture is everything. Agencies can’t pay top dollar for talent but culture is where they compete. Top talent can be drawn to the right culture. And, your agency co-workers usually become like a second family. So a culture that fits is key in making sure the family functions. So when merging or acquiring another agency, culture fit is one of the most important aspects.

How to Decide When and What Agency to Acquire

ZGM has been very strategic about its acquisitions. They have found that when they want to go into a new direction -- more product-based accounts, for example -- doing it organically isn’t realistic. So their growth strategy has been focused on acquisitions that can help them break barriers that afford them growth in new areas.

Getting Through the Current Economic Recession

Now more than ever, our clients are leaning on us to be creative and solve their business problems. Peter and partners have told their team, instead of looking for bigger spends or more money, ask how can you help clients get through this crisis. We need to help clients figure out ways to pivot their business and survive the economic recession.

Bottom line, money isn’t everything. Now is the time to be human.

Is your agency using the Foot in the Door strategy? Are you keeping all the clients you want to? Learn the three core parts of a proven sales process that is working to renew client contracts and improve recurring revenue.

In this episode, we’ll cover:

• The 3 core parts to every agency sales process.
• How to create a successful renewal process.
• How to get out of your agency so it can be a successful agency.

Today my guests are Rob Murray and Paul Demarco, cofounders of Intrigue Media, a full-service digital agency servicing B2C clients. In the 11 years they have been working together, they’ve grown their agency from a $50 project fee to $3 million in revenue this year. They credit their growth to a proven sales process and to always sticking with the process.

3 Core Parts of a Proven Sales Process

1- The Sales Process Itself

The key to this part is how you interact with people, i.e. your client or customer. There are two main philosophies to consider:

• Two ears, one mouth, use accordingly. Listening to your clients, let them do the majority of the talking. Ask lots of questions, your client wants to be understood.
• Avoid writing a prescription without a diagnosis; that is malpractice. You cannot properly pitch them a successful idea without understanding them.

Be mindful and open to needing help. Your sales is what drives agency growth. Rob and Paul realized early on that they couldn’t afford not to get help. If you are in the same boat, then check out my Agency Sales Makeover.

2- Financial Commitment for Proposals

Traditionally, Intrigue’s proposals or plans had been provided up front for free, or virtually free. However, this is where you want to implement the Foot in the Door strategy, and create a fee-based proposal that is clearly outlined. This is the first step in the direction of a long-lasting client relationship.

Proposals require work, outlining this work with your fee is totally acceptable. Intrigue's Marketing Action Plan (MAP) includes the research and education necessary to understand what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, how it will be done and creating a plan around that.

Thinking the proposal “seals the deal” is looking at it the wrong way. Charging a low, set fee will:

• Help you win the deal faster.
• Make the deal less risky.
• Provide you incentive and enjoyment through the process.
• Help make it an easier decision for the client to trust you.
• Can be a qualifier on your merit.

Using the Foot in the Door strategy will also help define the type of clients you want to be working with. If the partnership doesn’t feel right, you can walk away with little loss, rather than taking on a large retainer and becoming stuck.

3- Provide a Plan that Defines Expectations

You need to develop a crystal clear plan that defines crystal clear expectations. Something like:

• "This is exactly what we are promising you."
• "This is exactly how we will go do it."

This plan needs to be shared with your CLIENT as well as your TEAM so that it can be properly executed. With this thinking, you need to make sure that the team you intend on doing the work is the team you are having scope the work up front. This can prove to be a huge win.

Creating a Successful Renewal Process

Keeping your clients satisfied can be achieved with making sure they are delighted on a regular basis. They implemented “delightful client moments,” where they get to know their clients better. It’s those soft touches that make the business relationship more personal.

Taking a binary look at satisfaction creates a more black & white answer:

• If they don’t renew they aren’t satisfied.
• If they do renew they are satisfied.

Everyone can say your stuff is great, but if they pay you for it, then you know it is great.

Using the Foot in the Door method is a stepping stone towards a 1-year retainer. A month or two before the retainer is up, bring the client back in for a renewal. This is when you go for the longer term because you have built up a relationship of trust.

How to Get Out of Your Agency So It Can Be a Successful Agency

Consider a successful business being a business that can run without you. Leave the details to the team who specialize in the details. Success is all about:

• The focus you provide for the team.
• The focus you put on the team.

Bring consistency in what they do everyday:

• Create structure inside the organization.
• Put your priorities in focus.
• Get those priorities accomplished.
• Do updates frequently so everyone is in the know.

Providing clarity and context to team members ensures that everyone knows what is going on and can roll in the same direction... sticking to the process and growing your client base.

Need Guidance and Support to Grow Your Agency 3X Faster?

Are you overwhelmed by all the information out there on various ways to grow your agency? Do you want direction on how you can grow your agency faster and easier?

Then you’re in luck! I created an innovative mentorship called Agency University.

Agency University is a program which provides the 1-on-1 mentorship and ongoing support that is crucial to the success of your agency. Click here to see if it’s the right fit for you.

Do you have a qualification process for agency prospects? Do you know when to turn away a bad prospect?  How do you know if a client is a good fit for your agency? Turning away clients isn't easy, but turning down a bad prospect may just save you time, energy, and your sanity!

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• When should your agency swipe left on bad prospects?
• 5 big client mistakes to avoid.
• One great example of a bad agency client.

Today, I talked with BJ Enoch, VP of Enterprise Accounts at SocialSEO. BJ knows a thing or two about turning clients down because he’s learned the hard way. SocialSEO has 100+ employees and manages a ton of clients. So, BJ is the perfect person to give us all some client rejection insights. He's a 6-year SEO agency veteran with a knack for spotting bad clients. From early mistakes to time travelers, BJ gives us real, practical advice for avoiding bad agency prospects.

When Should Your Agency “Swipe Left”?

So honestly, I had no idea what “swiping left” meant until a few weeks ago (because I’m happily married!) So, for those who don't know, swiping left is when you decide to “reject" an uhhmm... "prospect" on the dating app Tinder. The app gives users different profiles photos and you can swipe left to get rid of the profiles you think are a bad match.

We've all dealt with bad clients a time or two but you know you don't have to! In fact, telling a prospect NO may be one of the best ways to grow your agency. If your agency is newer and you’re in need of the cash flow, you're probably going to take every job that comes your way. It gives you tons of experience and allows you the opportunity to make some mistakes. But, if you've been in the industry a while and you know exactly who help, then it's time to start saying "no" to the wrong projects and prospects.

BJ says to ask yourself some questions before you take on a new project. If the answer to any of the questions below is no, run away! Ask yourself:

• Can we deliver this project?
• Can we deliver this project at a high enough quality for the client?
• Is the project reasonable?
• Is the timeline reasonable?
• Do we WANT to deliver the project?
• Can we successfully communicate with the client?

5 Big Client Mistakes to Avoid

1. You can't always be the expert at everything: We're all really good at something. But, we're also all really bad at something. Don't tell the client you can create their website if you only do video production! If you're not equipped to deliver high-quality content, let the client know. Trying to work outside of your expertise is going to cause all kinds of issues. And, you'll probably lose the client because of your inability to deliver as promised.
2. The client isn't the expert: Speaking of being the expert, remember that it's you! If a client tries to set a bunch of parameters during the meeting, be wary. Don't be an order-taker — be an advisor. Make sure to establish this role upfront so your agency is not treated like a commodity.
3. Don't oversell - set accurate expectations: You don't have to constantly let the client know how amazing you are. Seriously. Don't tell them you're going to deliver 25% more than they wanted. Sure, you always want to impress but you should let your service and results speak for themselves.
4. Avoid pricing issues: Your price is X, not Y. "But Jason, the client said they could get the services from my competitor for that price!" Then tell them to work with your competitor! "But Jason, the client said they would pay me once my services start boosting their revenue!" No way José! They'll most likely jump ship to the next more expensive agency and try to cut them down on price.
5. Don't play the short game. Agency growth is all about the long game... lifetime value is key! Focus on client retention, not just on acquisition. This means you should be vetting clients and making sure you're both on-the-same-page before you work with them.

BJ left us with one great example of a bad agency prospect when he decided to “swipe left” on a prospect who wanted a website built for time travel business (?!?).

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Did you know if you keep saying you’re too busy it probably means you’re not charging enough? Are you ready to start charging what your digital agency is worth?

Being too busy is the quickest way to not only burn yourself out but also your team. I’ve been there, and let me tell you I was on the verge of shutting down my agency from being overworked and undervalued. We were doing so many things wrong. We were talking to the wrong clients, working long hours, and worst of all, barely making ends meet.

If any of this sounds familiar, it’s time to get out of your own way and start charging what you’re worth.

How can you get your prices to where they should be?

1. Understand the value and results your agency delivers.
2. Build trust with clients through an offer ladder.
3. Position yourself as an authority in your space.

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In this video, you will learn the three pricing structures you can use to get you to a place where your pricing will both be more on par with the results you deliver and will give you an advantage over other cheaper agencies.

Most agency owners believe at some point that low prices will give you an advantage over the rest. However, I’d argue that increasing your prices actually works to your advantage. As an adviser, I go through the financials of thousands of agencies, and in up to 90% of cases, I recommend they increase their prices. The suggestion alone makes them back away in fear.

I get it, most agency owners worry about things like losing the pitch because their prices are too high. However, I counter with “What if you lose the pitch because your pricing is too low?” You don’t think this can happen? It happened to me!

Years ago I got a call from a prospect that needed a website. I nailed the call and was invited to their office to present an offer. Their office was HUGE. Who was this company? I proceeded to make the pitch and said my price: $10,000. They actually laughed and I was so confused. Was the price too high?

Well, it turns out this company I'd never heard of, Berkshire Hathaway, was expecting to spend around $300,000 on the website. They loved the pitch and were excited to work with us until I named my price... because it was too low they thought it wouldn't deliver the results they expected.

So how should your digital agency pricing be structured? How can you come up with a price that shows your value, increases profit, and allows you to win more deals? A lot of businesses tend to set a price and then not think about it again for years. When there’s one element of your business that affects everything other element so much, it’s definitely not something to be forgotten. Pricing should evolve as much as your business does.

3 Digital Agency Pricing Models

1. Hourly-Based Pricing

Should agencies charge by the hour? Honestly, I’m not a fan. This is my absolutely least favorite model. Charging by the hour sounds like a great idea, but as you get better and more efficient at your job you’ll be working fewer hours and thus making less money. It’s also the option that makes clients more nervous because there’s a variable of the unknown. However, I do believe there’s a time for hourly rates. If you’re doing something new and it’s hard to estimate how long it will take you, then it’s the best option.

2. Value-Based pricing

This pricing model is the intersection between what your services are worth to the client and what you’re willing to take. Unfortunately, it’s very hard to get a pulse on the perceived value. Try to gather as much information as you can from clients so you can fully understand what they need and how you can help them. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve met with clients and asked them for their budget to find that it’s much higher than I would’ve quoted, so we could have possibly lost revenue or lost the deal altogether.

3. Performance-Based Pricing

What if you only got paid for performance? Would you be profitable? Mastery member David was having trouble charging anything more than $3,500 per month. He was in a race to the bottom that involved over-delivering and under-promising. David focused too much on what others in his niche were charging. After hearing countless success stories from other mastermind members, he got the courage to make a change. He picked a client who he knew he could make tons of money for and asked for a percentage of the revenue he would generate for the company as payment. That percentage turned into a $1 million payday six months later.

The trick when it comes to this model is coming up with a formula to pick the winners. If you generate this company X amount of business, can they scale as quickly as you’re sending them business? What’s the metric you can control? If their sales team won’t return calls then you need to change the performance to an agreed amount of leads.

Getting Your Prices to What They Should Be

I’m a big advocate of agencies increasing their prices but it obviously needs to be done in the right way. You can’t just double prices for existing clients right away.

Mastery member Dean was struggling to afford the team he needed, which led to him doing everything and being close to burning out. We challenged him to raise his prices and he started by doubling his fees for the new clients coming in. To his surprise, they all said yes. Now it was time to turn our attention to existing clients.

By that time, existing clients were paying 50% of what new clients were paying so he was actually losing money on those accounts. We developed a plan for him to reach out to those clients and let them know the price was increasing. He expected to lose around 50% of these clients but the other 50% would make up for this loss. He actually didn’t lose any clients. They all agreed to pay the increase.

This resulted in an extra $67,000 per month for his agency with no additional work for his agency.

Ultimately, your pricing structure will be up to you. Consider your financial goals for the future and ask yourself which structure will get you there the quickest. It’s not about topline revenue but about how you can maximize the profitability of your bottom line.

Do You Want to Convert More Prospects Into Agency Clients?

FREE COURSE: Discover the 4-system process to CONVERTING more agency clients at https://www.agencymastery360.com/convert In our videos series, we'll break down the steps you need to charge what you're worth, overcome common sales objections, and unlock up to 20X more revenue from existing clients.

Looking for ways to generate more new agency business? Tired of watching your competition grow and want to set your agency apart from the pack? Now is the time to be a front runner with the cutting edge technology of chatbots. You can use chatbots to generate new business and as an add-on service for your clients. It's easier than you might think to build and use a chatbot. Chatbot technology helps you engage with your ideal prospects and keep the conversation going in order to convert them into a client.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• Why chatbots are better than other methods of prospecting.
• #1 mistake agencies make using chatbots.
• Should you add chatbot building as a service?
• 2 easy steps to get start using chatbots.

Today I talked with Andrew Warner, Founder and CEO of Mixergy, a development resource for entrepreneurs. He's also the founder of Bot Academy. Andrew built his first company to over $30 million in sales and sold it. He started Mixergy to help business owners, by interviewing successful entrepreneurs and learning how they built their businesses. After learning about chatbots and eventually becoming an angel investor, he immediately knew chatbots were going to change the way we do business. He shares the potential that comes from using chatbots to generate new agency business.

Why Chatbots Are Better Than Other Methods of Prospecting

Email isn't working like it used to. Inboxes are flooded and we are learning that people love instant messaging or chats instead. People like to engage with communication apps.

Chatbots are the ideal tool to educate, build trust, and nurture a relationship from prospect-stage to client-stage.

For example....

Think about your Contact Page. People can come to it and ask a question... they want to know if you can help them. Then they have to wait for a response and that is it. That's the end of it. With a chatbot, there is potential for further engagement. A potential customer can ask questions while the chatbot is also garnering information. After the chatbot interaction, your agency can also followup and engage. A relationship is formed and can be nurtured over time.

The change can be as simple as moving from a form, which is transactional in nature, to a chatbot that is more of a relationship-builder.

A chatbot allows businesses to connect with their customers. Right now very few agencies are using chatbots, and even fewer are offering chatbot building as a service. Your agency can get in on this early-on.

#1 Mistake Agencies Make Using Chatbots

Don't try to have your chatbot do too much!

While it can be exciting to jump out of the gate with new ideas, remember chatbots are still relatively new to the receiver and you don't want too overwhelm them.

You can test my 'bot here. You'll see I only use the it to qualify the prospect and determine who I'm talking to by asking 2-3 questions. Then a live person jumps in to keep the conversation going.

Should You Add Chatbot Building As A Service?

In addition to using chatbots to generate new agency business, you might consider adding it as a service. Chatbot building might be a service to consider for bringing value-added to your clients.

Andrew says a basic chatbot takes just minutes to make. He suggesting building one to present to your clients and let them play with it.

Start by approaching your agency clients who already do email marketing well and show them how their current content would work with a 'bot. Be sure to do it in person or via video conference, so you can get real-time reactions. Since chatbots are in the early stages, creating this add-on for clients might set your agency apart from the competition.

2 Easy Steps To Get Started Using Chatbots

1. Test out different chatbots.
   • You wouldn't start building a website without doing some research, so approach chatbot building the same way.
   • Check out the chatbot built specifically for this podcast, here.
2. Create a fake chatbot and go from there.
   • Visit botlist.co to find a list of software for chatbot building.
   • Play with different tools to see what works for your agency and it's chatbot purposes.

If you build your chatbot right, your agency will be able to know exactly where the audience is coming from.

Generate leads for your agency by checking out Builtwith, to find out who's using chatbots. Then use an email service, like Mailshake to send out mass emails (that don't actually look like mass emails) as well as follow-ups, to start a chatbot conversation.

Looking for a Payroll and HR Solution for your Agency?

Payroll and benefits are hard. Especially when you're a small business. Gusto is making payroll, benefits and HR easy for small businesses. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits and great service to take care of your team.

For a limited time, Gusto is offering a deal to Smart Agency Master Class listeners. Check out Gusto.com/agency for 3-months FREE once you run your first payroll with them.

Do you struggle to get clients to view you as an authority? Do you have a difficult time communicating value to your prospects and clients? Are you concerned about losing work to machine learning or AI? When you position your agency in the context of strategy, you bring value to clients and outlast computer intelligence.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• How to grow your agency team the right way. 
• 3 ways to set your agency apart from AI.
• Do your clients view your agency as a trusted advisor?

Today I sat down for an interesting talk with Dan Golden, co-founder and president of BFO, a digital marketing agency with over 60 employees globally. Over the past 10 years, Dan and his partner have grown their agency across the globe and learned what it takes to be successful in today's changing market. He's here to talk about what he's learned about growing a team and evolving his agency with changing technology over the past decade.  

How to Grow Your Agency Team the Right Way

When you're first starting an agency, it's easy to focus on rapid growth. What can I do to get more clients, make more money, and grow my team? It's a natural instinct. We all want to find success and we can be impatient waiting for it to come organically. But if you're not careful, you may find the growth of your team no longer supports the work you bring in. 

So how do you avoid this and make sure you don't have to make some painful cuts?

• Focus on "right-sizing": As you're building your teams, don't simply be reactive to the work that comes in. Be intentional with the type and size of team you create. 
• Resist the urge to overbuild management: It may seem like a natural progression to promote your early employees to managers as the agency begins to grow. But just because someone has been there the longest, doesn't mean they should be a manager. Put the right people in the right places and don't create a position you don't need. 

3 Ways to Set Your Agency Apart from AI

If you're not paying attention to AI, you should. AI is changing the industry and forcing many agencies to take a hard look at the way they do things. And the hard truth is, there are many agencies vulnerable to losing business to AI. The trick is to position yourself so you work with AI, not against it. This means:

• Refocus on where you add value: A machine can compile spreadsheets and discover trends, but what about strategy? You may need to shift how you do business. However, if you restructure some of the engagement to strategy instead of execution, you will still end up with a valuable partnership. 
• Embrace the change: AI isn't all bad. Automation can make your life easier and add value to your clients. Focus on how you can use this technology and act as a shepherd to guide clients through this new world. 
• Up your skills: AI can have a steep learning curve. Be the best in class in understanding how to manipulate machine learning algorithms and do something not many other people can.  

Do Your Clients View Your Agency as a Trusted Advisor?

"Most agencies give away their secret sauce and then charge for cooking." As agencies, we tell our clients exactly what we do and why we do it. The problem is, eventually, you'll have clients who think they can do it on their own. But you can prevent this. 

• Know the value of your services: One of the main reasons clients don't understand the value of strategy is because you don't understand the value of strategy. If you're not charging strategy as a separate line item, do it now. 
• Be flexible: Things are changing. There are more resources available on the client's side than ever before. Some clients may not need you for everything. And that's okay. 
• Ask the right questions: The client may think they have a better strategy, but what are they risking? Lay it out to them — How many leads are they getting? What is a lead worth? What type of traffic are they getting from these leads? When faced with hard facts, many clients will see the benefit of working with an expert. 

Now, more than ever, it's important to highlight what you bring to the table. When you position yourself as a trusted advisor instead of an executioner, your clients are going to have a harder time walking away. 

Looking for a Payroll and HR Solution for your Agency?

Payroll and benefits are hard. Especially when you're a small business. Gusto is making payroll, benefits, and HR easy for small businesses. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits, and great service to take care of your team.

For a limited time, Gusto is offering a deal to Smart Agency Master Class listeners. Check out Gusto.com/agency for 3-months FREE once you run your first payroll with them.

Are you starting to look into the opportunities available if you were to sell your agency? Are you unsure of how you can value your agency correctly and make it appealing to buyers?

It can be super exciting when someone is interested in acquiring your agency… right up until the time that it gets super overwhelming. Here are the steps you need to take to make sure that when you sell your agency, it goes as smoothly as possible while also benefiting you and your employees the most.

How to Sell Your Agency

#1  Know what your agency is worth and the amount you need to have to walk away.

Do you want to know the Agency Valuation Formula?

These deals are done in a two-tier structure: cash amount and earn out. Come up with your cash amount figure, present it to the buyer and make sure you’re happy with the amount. Most earn outs are structured in a way that make them unachievable, so don’t get your heart set on earning it.

#2  Resist the urge to celebrate.

Celebrations and telling people too soon could seriously bite you in the ass. If someone is inquiring, they have interest but there is no deal in place. Keep it “business as usual” and try not to mentally spend all that money you think you’re going to get in the buyout.

#3  Be helpful without disclosing too much before you get the Letter of Intent.

You’ll feel the need to provide a ton of information to make sure the deal pans out. Stop yourself from tipping your hand too much. This buyer is probably a competitor, so why would you tell them all your secrets? They will want to know things like: margins, revenue, growth, client list, employees, and all that is alright to share. But don’t start handing over documents, processes, or anything that is not necessary for them to get the full scope of the potential transaction. And, anything they ask you is fair game for you to ask them in return. Ask relevant questions to make sure  they have the capability to buy.

#4  The Letter of Intent

LOIs resemble written contracts, but are usually not binding on what the purchaser evaluates your agency's worth. It is always good to know how to evaluate the worth of your agency, check out my Agency Valuation Chart as a starting point to see what your agency might be worth. The chart shows you the EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amoritization).

#5  Due diligence phase.

Keep things quiet and keep moving your business forward. Instead of daydreaming of ways to spend your new income, act like it’s not going to happen. Reality check: it may not happen. These things collapse all the time and if you check out now, your business bottoms out and you’re left with no deal and no agency. In the meantime, learn what you can about your buyer. What their intentions or reasons for the acquisition? Do they want your clients? Do they need you for your specialization? Are they trying to expand in your geographical location? Learn what you can to help make this is smooth transition for your employees IF (not when) the time comes.

Are you ready to kick it into gear and grow your agency into something worth buying?

You might want to check out my Agency Mastermind group. This is a group of like-minded individuals that meets every other week , so it’s not a huge time commitment but the benefits are immeasurable. You can read more details here and if you’re interested there is a brief application process. You’ll fill out a quick form and I’ll let you know if the group is a good fit for you.

Improve Your Agency and Become a Better Agency Owner!

Through my years of experience, It's allowed me to provide advice on many topics from the struggles you may face with failing economies and recessions to how accepting a speaking opportunity can create business and the four phases of growth you may experience within your agency.

Want extra help in taking your agency to the next level and sell your agency for a larger profit? Or want to become a better agency owner?

Learn more about me and my experience and find lots of tips, tricks and insights by reading our blogs that cover a wide variety of topics!

If videos are more your thing, don’t worry, i’ve got you covered! Check out my Ask Swenk series and more of my videos on my Youtube channel for advice from myself and other agency experts.

Are you starting an agency and debating whether you need a partner? Is your agency growing, but you're not sure where to go from here? It doesn't matter what kind of work you produce or how motivated you are if you don't have everything aligned behind the scenes.

In today's episode, we'll cover:

• Why do so many agency partnerships fail?
• 2 key stages of growing a successful agency.
• Why your agency should always invest in culture first.

Today I had an engaging talk with Francisco Serrano, president and CEO of 121, a digital implementation agency. In the last 16 years, Francisco has grown his agency to a team of 90 employees and just recently hired a COO. He's here to talk about the stages his agency went through to get to where they're at and why you should always put your agency employees first.

Why Do So Many Agency Partnerships Fail?

I've talked to many agency owners over the years who have started with a partner and eventually dissolved the partnership. It isn't because either partner is bad or not putting enough work; most of the time, it's just not the right fit. And as the agency grows, it's perfectly natural to outgrow one of your partners.

Francisco joins a long list of owners who realized they were better off on their own (including myself). If you're thinking about taking on a partner or are currently working with someone, the question is, how can you determine whether a partnership is going to work? The answer comes down to open communication.

But before you say, "Great, we've already got that covered," understand there's a difference between being able to talk to your partner and really being honest about what you hope to get out of your agency. The number one reason most partnerships fail is because partners don't have the same vision for the direction of the agency.

Before you begin to talk about strategy or revenue or anything else, talk about your focus and your passion. If you don't agree on what you want to stand for, how much work you want to put in, and what you're willing to risk, it's probably not going to work.

2 Key Stages of Growing a Successful Agency

So you've begun to see some growth and are getting more clients — great! But if you stay with the same strategy and don't switch it up, eventually, you're bound to hit a plateau. Francisco says there are 2 main stages his agency went through in order to see continued growth:

1. Team building. When you're building a team, usually you're the one that does all the hiring. After all, who better to find the right people for growing your team than you? But as you continue to grow, you'll realize you just don't have enough time to handpick every new member of your team. Francisco says the first big step was hiring an HR professional to recruit and hire new team members, as well as keep the existing ones happy.
2. Execution. Francisco recently brought on a COO to take care of the day-to-day execution. With a team of 90, he wants to focus on building relationships and working on the business, which will ultimately help the agency grow.

Why Your Agency Should Always Invest in Culture First

When we're first starting out, many of us fail to recognize the importance of agency culture. Francisco makes an interesting analogy between running an agency and osteoporosis. He says, if you don't focus on what's on the inside and what holds everything together, the bones will crumble.

A lot of building a solid culture comes down to communicating with your team and understanding what motivates them (no it's not money). Figure out what they're good at, what they want to do, and what just doesn't make them happy. When you do this, you'll find your team is happier, more successful, and devoted to the agency as a whole.

You'll never find true success as an agency unless you master the fundamentals. If you have talent, culture, and you can execute, the rest is fun and games.

Are You Looking for Outsourced Copywriting for Your Agency or Clients?

Verblio is a content creation solution designed specifically for agencies. Their writers can help with everything from blog posts to ebooks to video scripts and more.

Forget the hassle of finding and hiring your own writers. Verblio has a pool of more than 3,000 highly vetted writers who produce custom, SEO-rich content. You set the criteria for style and tone and they match you with writers that have expertise in your specific subject matter.

Verblio's platform is designed specifically for agencies -- and for a limited time, they are offering my audience 50% off your first month of content. My team is using Verblio and loving it, so make sure you check them out.

Considering a merger or acquisition to scale your agency? Wondering what's involved in selling, but overwhelmed at the thought of it all? Relax! The processes can be stressful, but it's totally manageable and can also be a great growth strategy. Whether you want to stay in control and grow your agency with an acquisition, or you want to exit your business with a massive payday, here's everything you need to know about agency mergers and acquisitions.

In this episode, we'll cover:

• 3 things agency acquirers are looking for.
• The best way to cure agency growing pains.
• Can you really grow through mergers and acquisitions?

Today, I talked with Jose Lozano CEO of 9thWonder — a full-service digital marketing agency with offices around the globe. Jose didn't start off with a massive agency, and he didn't grow one... he bought one! After selling his company to a massive organization, he led a group to acquire an agency to scale up. Jose shares why and how to scale your business by acquiring another agency.

3 Things Agency Acquirers Are Looking For

Selling your agency is an important decision. Are you really ready to sell? What will you do after you sell? Will you merge agencies and stay on, or get acquired and move on? The answers to all of these questions matter. But, before you can even start thinking about them, you have to ask the big question — is your agency sellable?

When CMOs and big organizations look at agencies, they aren't just looking at profitability. They're looking for opportunities. Jose has done internal M&A polling, and I've talked to thousands of agency owners on this subject. Here are 3 things that make your agency sellable.

1. Having Processes: You can be crazy-successful but still look like a bad investment. Having success is one thing — having a repeatable formula for success is a whole different ballgame. When you have the right processes in place it lets investors know you're successful and that you've broken your success down into a repeatable formula.
2. Being Independent: If you created your agency with the sole purpose of selling it, you're at a disadvantage. It's like when people buy a house just to flip it, they treat it differently because it's not their home and never will be. The same thing happens with agencies. Being an independent owner who has hustled and bled for their agency is huge. It lets people know you're personally invested in your business.
3. Niching Out: You have to have an unfair advantage. Why should an acquirer buy you? There are plenty of agencies out there but, if you do something better than everyone else — you're worth top dollar. Dominating a specific niche not only makes your agency more valuable to investors, but it is one of the best ways to be viewed as an industry leader.

The Best Way to Cure Agency Growing Pains

Your agency's size is not relative when it comes to stress. I've met agency owners with 3 part-time team members that were as stressed as owners with 30.

It's all about how you handle key areas of your business. What's causing the stress? Is it ops? Or are you having trouble handling team members? Whatever it is you have to pinpoint it and either hire it out or partner up with someone who gets it. Deciding to grow is a conscious choice. And it can be impossible to make that choice when you're busy managing your stress level.

Chances are, you know what's causing your stress. Maybe you're overwhelmed with finances and KPI's, or maybe you dragging your feet on hiring or firing. That's ok! If you feel like you're not cut out for the role of CEO the solution might be getting acquired or merging with an agency.

Don't be afraid to give away some of your equity to reduce your stress. Which would you rather have? Full ownership of a stressful, chaotic agency, or 80% ownership of a well-managed one?

Can You Really Grow Through Mergers and Acquisitions?

Yes, you really can! Giving away equity can put you on the growth fast track. And acquiring another agency can also be one of the smartest moves you ever make if you do it right. I know what you're thinking! How do you know what your agency (or another agency) is truly worth? You can check out this video on agency valuation. Bottom line, the answer really depends: How profitable are they? What kind of niche are they in? What's their profit margin?

Check out my post on how to double your growth with an acquisition. 

Looking for a Payroll and HR Solution for your Agency?

Payroll and benefits are hard. Especially when you’re a small business. Gusto is making payroll, benefits and HR easy for small businesses. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits and great service to take care of your team.

For a limited time, Gusto is offering a deal to Smart Agency Master Class listeners. Check out Gusto.com/agency for 3-months FREE once you run your first payroll with them.

Do You Struggle With DOING? Find Out What is Missing and Get UNSTUCK 

If you are having issues getting things done so you can grow your agency it's not about hustling harder.... it's identifying what's missing. 

In this AskSwenk episode, learn how you can gain clarity in order to get unstuck and stop being stalled out on just doing so you can start growing.