PuSh Play (PuSh Festival)
Explore every episode of PuSh Play
| Pub. Date | Title | Duration | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 27 Aug 2024 | Ep. 25 - How to Curate Partnership (2011) | 00:33:32 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with David Pay, Artistic Director of Vancouver’s Music on Main. Show Notes Gabrielle and David discuss:
About David Pay Dave is Music on Main’s founder and Artistic Director, earning a reputation as one of today’s leading-edge concert programmers. He is a frequent curator and speaker at conferences and festivals around the world and served as Artistic Director of ISCM World New Music Days 2017, the largest new music festival in Canada’s history. About Music on Main At a Music on Main concert, there’s always great musicians and interesting, engaging music. And there’s always the chance to make new friends, meet the artists, and escape from your to-do list for an hour or two. Music on Main has produced more than 700 events featuring in excess of 1,800 musicians and 130 world premieres at Heritage Hall on Main Street, the now-closed Cellar Restaurant, the Fox Cabaret, the Jazz Club in Kitsilano, and venues throughout Metro Vancouver. The music has touched the souls of thousands of listeners, and we’ve helped artists from around the world connect with each other, and with Vancouver audiences. In 2010 we launched the annual Modulus Festival, which “provides western Canada with one of the finest windows onto the post-classical scene” (Gramophone Magazine). In 2017, we co-hosted the ISCM World New Music Days 2017. Our events take place in Vancouver’s most vibrant neighbourhoods. The Main Street Series happens at Heritage Hall, The Fox Cabaret, and other intimate spaces located in the heart of the Mount Pleasant neighbourhood, in East Vancouver. Other events take place in unexpected and fun venues throughout Metro Vancouver. At Music on Main, you’re always welcome. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:21 Today's episode is anchored around the 2011 Push Festival. It highlights Music on Main in conversation with David Pei. Since 2006, Music on Main has produced more than 700 events featuring in excess of 1 ,800 musicians and 130 world premieres.
Gabrielle Martin 00:38 The music has touched the soles of thousands of listeners and helped artists from around the world connect with each other and with Vancouver audiences. David Pei is Music on Main's founder and artistic director, earning a reputation as one of today's leading -edge concert programmers.
Gabrielle Martin 00:53 He is a frequent curator and speaker at conferences and festivals around the world, and served as artistic director of the ISCM World New Music Days 2017, the largest new music festival in Canada's history.
Gabrielle Martin 01:07 Here's my conversation with David. I just want to start by acknowledging that we are on the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the First Nations, Coast Salish First Nations, Squamish, Musqueam, and Tsleil -Wautu.
Gabrielle Martin 01:23 And we are here on those territories, on Homeward Street, near the Push offices, which are also the Music on Main offices, so the post is 750. So we're neighbours there, and we just hop down the street.
David Pay 01:38 some talk of whether we should have a conversation in our office, but the street is way prettier and more fun. Plus lunch.
Gabrielle Martin 01:44 Yeah, yeah. So, let's just jump right into it. I would love it if you could talk to me about how your relationship with Push started, and then also, yeah, how it developed, or how it's developed in the years.
David Pay 01:59 Well, I started Music on Main in 2006, and so Push had just started up, it's like, changed the landscape, it was so exciting, it really was a different city back then too, you know, like, there was more things that felt emergent.
Ben Charland 02:15 Thank you.
David Pay 02:16 partly time of life as well, I'm sure, but the city, you know, as we look around at all these towers, some of them were here then, some of them weren't. The city was growing, there was like increased strange professionalism, like all the extra accountability, and it's sort of like, what about the DIY?
David Pay 02:35 What about the making things? And so it was this moment where DIY and making things met with an ever increasing sophistication and professionalism in the arts. And so I think that the push came out of that, came out of like an idea of sharing ideas about the city and bringing people in from other parts of the city, and that was an inspiration for so many of us.
Gabrielle Martin 02:56 And were you already in conversation with Norman? No.
David Pay 03:02 the team at that point? No, Norman and Katrina and the team at that point were like oh my god these like amazing humans who had started this incredible festival that just went bang from the very beginning and so you know I think you know we'd all met and said hello or whatever but the very first concert that Music on Main did in 2006 Norman Armour bought a ticket and I was doing box office and production and artistic direction and everything back then and when I saw Norman's name on the list I was out of my mind excited to get like this endorsement you know just like I'm gonna show up for that new thing yeah
Gabrielle Martin 03:35 And then, so maybe we'll start then by talking about how the relationship evolved through the different projects you did. So we were kind of anchoring this conversation in 2011's Terminal City Soundscape.
Gabrielle Martin 03:50 But before that came Steve Rice drumming in 2009 and then many productions after that. But let's start with Terminal City Soundscape. Can you tell me about this project and about how it was realized for Push?
Gabrielle Martin 04:05 Yeah.
David Pay 04:06 So in 2011, Terminal City Soundscape, so obviously we're planning this in 2010, maybe a bit before then. And I was really interested, I think inspired a lot by how Push would look at the city and help define or help explain things that were happening in the city.
David Pay 04:24 I was jealous that that was happening in theater. I was jealous that that was already so clearly established in the visual art world. And I was like, well, what does Vancouver do? And so I wrote a little essay about it and I was thinking about four aesthetic streams that were really important to Vancouver's musical ecology.
David Pay 04:44 And I had for those soundscape, which was invented here with Murray Shafer and Hillegard Vesterkamp and Barry Truax, like the idea of soundscape and the world soundscape project started here in Vancouver.
Gabrielle Martin 04:57 Yeah, and so so there was
David Pay 04:59 soundscape was one of those aesthetics or movements. There's this improvisation and free improv is really important here and we have really heavy hitter players who play all over the world, legends all over the world and the improv world.
David Pay 05:14 There's this intercultural thing that happens more authentically in Vancouver than it can happen in other places where people come together from different cultures musically and share each other's cultures and it's not just about non -western musicians learning how to play Western music, it's about Western musicians learning how to authentically engage in other cultures as well and being taught and led by other cultures.
David Pay 05:38 So I think the intercultural movement here with organizations like Vancouver International, or Vancouver Intercultural Orchestra, Vico, they do amazing work and so that was starting to come up. And then there's also I think an aesthetic around beauty and when I say that I mean sort of almost a Keatsian beauty that is about beauty and the importance of beauty and how beauty makes life possible and I think that is a response to the extraordinary geographic beauty of the city as opposed to creating a softness it actually creates an incredible aesthetic and I include composers like Rodney Sherman in that and the late Jocelyn Moorlach in that.
David Pay 06:17 So I wanted to take these ideas of the city and share them with the push -up audience to say hey like in music we can think about these ways that we're thinking about in theater that we're thinking about in visual art and yeah it was a great big production.
David Pay 06:32 Norman said yes to doing it we did it at Heritage Hall.
Gabrielle Martin 06:35 from the early stages you discussed realizing it in the context of push.
David Pay 06:41 Yeah, absolutely. You know, the energy around Push with the audience, the energy around Push with the artistic community was like it was inspiring for I think everyone who wanted to make projects. And it was at a period where we didn't think things happened in the city and then all of a sudden January became sort of almost the artistic buzz point in Vancouver.
David Pay 07:03 And yeah, so it was definitely this project and it was a bigger project than we would normally do at Music on Main, so that also having access to Push... Just for another cast? There was a lot of cast in it in terms of the number of players involved and also big electro acoustic setups for the soundscape portion.
David Pay 07:23 We also had giant screens inside Heritage Hall, which is a beautiful space that doesn't have screens, doesn't have theatrical lighting, doesn't have any projection opportunities, so you have to bring everything in.
Gabrielle Martin 07:34 So why did you choose that menu?
David Pay 07:36 It was our home venue, and it was with Music on Main, on Main Street. It's where Music on Main started in 2006 when Norman bought that first ticket. I think knowing that we had Push's support in getting new audiences to hear this music and to experience this gave us the confidence, and we had that experience as well starting in 2009 with Steve Leish's drumming.
David Pay 07:58 We knew that audiences would come to hear music that they don't normally hear outside of the Push Festival, because of its association with Push.
Gabrielle Martin 08:08 And so, as mentioned, Push presented Steve Reich's drumming in 2009, then Eve Agoyen plays Simple Lines of Inquiry in 2012, then Anna Sokolovich's Svaadba Wedding, and, so two productions in 2013, and Reich and Wright with pianist Vicky Chow in 2013, and mixtape Gabrielle Kehane and Timo Andres.
David Pay 08:44 Timo Andres, yeah. Andres, okay.
Gabrielle Martin 08:46 2014. And then we continue to do co -presentations every year. Yeah. Every year since I've been in Polish.
David Pay 08:56 We've done co -presentations with Push every year since 2009, except during the pandemic, when in, was it the first year when there was a hybrid? No, I think it was all digital festival. We did Caroline Chon, Vanessa Goodman's graveyards and gardens as a digital presentation with Push.
Gabrielle Martin 09:14 But that is also impressive because there was only three productions that year. So it was, you know, a mainstay of the festival. He'd been in the middle of the festival.
David Pay 09:24 and working closely together on that one and then we had to cancel one year when the when it was a hybrid festival in Lee Avon since new production we weren't able to do songs for a lost pod we weren't able to do that with push at that time and yes but every year we tried I know we tried so hard it was just you know
Gabrielle Martin 09:43 work in creation with a large cast in the middle of the Omicron Way. But the difference between some of these earlier projects is that they were really co -produced with Push. Would you say that that's correct?
David Pay 09:56 We did the main production, but there was a lot of territorial conversation around what would happen, and even where it would happen. I remember we, at Musicon Main, we do concerts off Main Street now as well.
David Pay 10:08 We're at the Annex a lot, we're at the Round House a lot, and other venues around Vancouver. But for Norman, it was really important that we kept concerts on Main Street for as long as we could, and so yeah, there were some productions like Terminal City Soundscape that could have fit into other venues as well.
David Pay 10:27 But having it on Main Street, yeah, and it was a part for Norman about sort of spreading art around the city and different places too.
Gabrielle Martin 10:33 And then, you know, you are artistic director of Music on Main. Were you also involved as a performer or a composer in some of these projects? Because I know these days, since I've been at Flush, you know, your role has more been in the curatorial sense, and that's been our relationship when we're discussing these projects.
David Pay 10:56 music on main came of age and I came of age professionally. I've really dug into the role of producer and what is a producer and I know these are conversations that happen in the theater world as well is like what is what is an artistic producer, what's a creative producer.
David Pay 11:12 In classical music and contemporary music the artistic director often is a curator, often is some just a booker sometimes, like booking great concerts.
Ben Charland 11:27 Can I buy it by snowboard?
David Pay 11:28 A deeper hand in productions is something that I think seeing work at Push led me to know that I really wanted to do. So those first productions, for instance, like Steve Reicher's Drumming, we did So Percussion the next year, Eva Vitova was a violinist, we've done a whole bunch of different shows that are presenting.
David Pay 11:47 And, you know, I think Push is involved in this as well. We have shows that are presenting and we have shows that are produced. And when you're a producer, sometimes it's about your role and what you're paying, but also the eyes that you're bringing and the idea of how, what the relationship is for the audience and the art.
David Pay 12:07 And that's something that I think I really stepped into, seeing Great Work at Push, being inspired by Norman and also our first board president, Alma Lee, who founded the Writers Festival here, being inspired by people who were sort of city changers and that changing the city involved going out and knowing what's happening in the world, taking ideas that you think can work, bringing them back.
David Pay 12:28 And so I became more of a producer and producer as artistic practice, I would say. And it's things like the events that happen at Push Festival, like the conversations that happen during industry that allow artistic directors like me to step into these roles and be like, no, this actually is artistic practice.
Gabrielle Martin 12:50 Yeah, it's very apparent when you're speaking about how much you value that the kind of intersection of audiences who come from different contexts, the kind of conversations that can happen around work, and we really appreciated your appreciation of that.
Gabrielle Martin 13:08 We value that as well, so much of questions about relationships and as a multidisciplinary festival. I think that's something really exciting that you're speaking to, is what are the conversations that are happening in a certain discipline, or the aesthetic trends in a certain discipline, and what does that mean when we apply that lens to another?
Gabrielle Martin 13:27 You see this in your work.
David Pay 13:29 as well where when you work with artists in different disciplines we have such different approaches to how a rehearsal works, who says what, the difference between dancers and actors and musicians and circus performers like we all have these these specific ways of being on stage in rehearsal and learning how to translate between those different things is such a huge and important part of a And so I think that's one of the things that push has made possible as well as bringing things together in a multi -disciplinary way.
David Pay 14:02 You're forced to think about how do you communicate with artists across discipline and then how do you communicate to audiences across or through discipline too.
Gabrielle Martin 14:11 from different frames of reference, you know, coming in with different frames of reference, different expectations. Great. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate how you're talking about creative producing, artistic producing, and I know that Music on Main has been so important for so many local artists because you premiere a lot of work.
Gabrielle Martin 14:36 You work with artists in that first introduction of their work to a public, and your relationships with local artists that are long -term relationships with artists that you present more than once, you know, and I think that's really special, and I guess what I'm curious if there's any other co -presentations, productions, any other collaborations with Push projects that you've worked on with Push that you want to talk about in terms of,
Gabrielle Martin 15:05 you know, just being memorable or being iconic or special when you think about the relationship with Push between Push and Music on Main.
David Pay 15:15 Well I think there is something about the sharing with push audiences and the bringing music on main audiences together and so you know like that one moment it's actually more like that feeling which took a while to realize but that feeling of sharing across audiences is something that we in that music on main internally we talk about that every year when we're talking about the collaborations and you know you and I will talk about collaborations coming up and you'll have suggestions and I'll have suggestions and we'll talk about how will these audiences react to work and so there is that that feeling I think that's there.
David Pay 15:55 One of the early expectations I had or early hopes I had was that oh the super sexy push audience that's like just on fire every January is going to come to a music on main event and then they're going to turn into music on main audience members on the on an ongoing basis like come to three or four shows a year and that hasn't been when we look at the data audience data around that that hasn't been the experience so much and at first I was like oh like how does this collaboration lead to increased or better audiences for music on main but we realize that it leads to better audiences for music on main because one of the joys of working in non -profit is it's not just about getting more dollars through your revenue in your seats right it's about the work that you do and how it connects to community and so we realize that there are a whole bunch of people who are more familiar with theater who come to push who come to one new music event a year and they come to a music on main push collaboration and so for us this is sort of a better audience like it makes our audience better it makes the work work better because we're reaching people who we otherwise wouldn't reach or we're able to share music with people who we wouldn't get to share with on a regular basis so yeah so it's funny that like what is that one event i have a list like i brought a list of the 17 productions and presentations that we've done since we started and
Gabrielle Martin 17:16 But while you're thinking about that, I'll just echo that for this last year, you know, Inheritances, the co -presentation between music on May and Bush, that was a project I heard from many first audiences that they maybe didn't know what to expect, because yeah, they're not, I would say you're right, they're generally a theater or dance audience, and something really exciting can happen there as well,
Gabrielle Martin 17:39 when people don't know what they're really walking into, and the feedback was really incredible, many people were very touched by it, and I think we're surprised, because yeah, they didn't know what to expect.
David Pay 17:53 I think the contemporary music and classical music world has changed in the 18 years music funding has been doing this. And productions, concerts that are led in a dramaturgical way that have production elements that are really thought about as like what's going to happen between movements, what's the lighting going to be, how's the artist going to approach the stage.
David Pay 18:17 Like in classical music that really wasn't a consideration in instrumental music when we first started out 18 years ago and that's like when I was becoming a hands on producer. I remember seeing like it's Steve Reisz drumming the first one we did saying like here's this audience they're used to theater like how are you going to bow.
David Pay 18:36 And the musicians were a little bit surprised that we had a how to bow rehearsal and I was like no like we're in front of a theater audience we need to step up our game. Yeah so I think that the ecology of contemporary music has changed where people are often much more aware of an audience experience.
David Pay 18:56 And I think that Adam Tendler's inheritance is you know he created that project out of love of contemporary music and wanting to commission a lot of pieces but he worked really hard on the order of those pieces and he worked with Kate Nordstrom in Minnesota who's a phenomenal producer to frame it so that it became an event so that it became a concert that would have that emotional impact.
Gabrielle Martin 19:22 Yeah, and it was really fun.
David Pay 19:24 thrilling that after its performances in some festivals and a lot of new music venues that it got shared in a multidisciplinary festival and that outside of music people have that reaction to it as well.
Gabrielle Martin 19:33 So the relationship between music on me and Push evolved into being an annual thing, like as mentioned on Mainstay, so how did that evolve from that 2009, 2011 event, and then it just rolled over, how did that happen?
Gabrielle Martin 19:51 And then how did you come to sharing an office?
David Pay 19:55 The annualization of the productions was, it's never a given. We don't have a contract that says Pushin' Music on Main are going to collaborate every year. We look for projects where it will work and I think it's a benefit to both of our organizations to be able to connect with audiences and to be able to share art outside.
Gabrielle Martin 20:14 And also, you know, the expertise you bring in from this kind of contemporary music field is really great. It's an example. Yeah.
David Pay 20:24 you know I'll jump into some ideas and things that we learned about interdisciplinary work which I think is apropos the conversation is absolutely a part of terminal city sandscapes as well but to come back to this idea of annualization and then how did we become such some interwoven organizations that we share the post at 750 the annualization of concerts was not a given we would share ideas every year and it always made sense and so it has become a de facto agreement like but nobody ever takes it for granted that we are going to be collaborating each year and I think it worked out because everybody wanted it to work out and then through that became good friends great colleagues and then back 2012 2013 push and touchstone wanted to address and find solutions for all of the performing arts leaving downtown office space gone from downtown rehearsal space gone from downtown and they knew that at some point the space inside the cbc building would open up and they also knew it was Mina Schindlinger and Norman Armour from push and Katrina Dunn and Louise Bentall from touchstone who were sort of the four people who I first met around this project the co -location project I think Mina was a really amazing leader around the idea of it being a cooperative that it's not a non -profit that it's not for profit it's not another kind of coalition it's actually a cooperative formally
Gabrielle Martin 22:10 And why was it important to have that differentiation?
David Pay 22:12 Well, and I didn't think it was at first. And I remember a phone call room and it was like, you know, we're interested in the music on me being a part of this. And I was like, ah, it's a lot of work running a space.
David Pay 22:22 It's a lot of work being responsible for that. And I remember saying, hey, you know, like if you actually just need people to pay rent, we'll be really good tenants. We'd love to be a part of this. And she was like, oh no, actually, if you just wanna be a tenant, that won't work out.
David Pay 22:34 That's not what we want here. We need organizations who are gonna be equally responsible for the wellbeing of the space, for the care of the community, for the care of all the employees. We need organizations that are going to be equally responsible for the financial wellbeing of it all as well.
David Pay 22:50 And who will work as equal peers, not as hierarchical peers, like not in a landlord -tenant relationship, but in a member -to -member relationship to make the space work for each of the organizations and for the city at large.
David Pay 23:06 So I immediately love this idea so much more than being a tenant. So Touchstone and Push started it, and then they talked with many organizations and invited Doxa Documentary Film Festival and Music on Main to the table.
David Pay 23:20 And the moment the four organizations were identified, we became four equal members. We were all there equally. And it was an amazing moment in, I think, all of our careers, building an 8 ,500 -square -foot space, raising a ton of money, planning it all out, working with the architects, working with the contractors.
David Pay 23:40 We all became expert in tenant improvements and how to deal with HVAC as well as the amount of toilet paper you need to order. It was so exciting. It was so exciting.
Gabrielle Martin 23:53 Exciting in terms of having that agency. Yeah
David Pay 23:56 having agency beyond what you could ever have in a landlord -tenant relationship.
Gabrielle Martin 24:01 creating a space that will have a legacy. Yeah, and that's one of the exciting things.
David Pay 24:04 and challenging things around that space is of the the leaders who were around during the building of it I think I'm the only one left in this space and so sort of watching the organization the 110 Arts Cooperative watching the cooperative morph and evolve and especially during COVID go through ups and downs when we're in office not in office and but keeping this culture of collaboration and culture of equality alive in the space that's been a huge part of it so like all of it how did the concerts become annual how did we end up sharing an office space it's kind of all organic but not organic in a laissez -faire way not like like oh we're gonna put some seeds in and see how they grow more organic and like oh you like seeds I like seeds what sort of seeds are you into let's put them in the ground what's great soil for it like really like yeah let's let's follow these common interests and follow this common care for the city
Gabrielle Martin 25:03 Well, it's such a pleasure to share office space with you, community space, you know, and just be able to run to each other, and, you know, at times, there's hard times. There's the ups and downs. You know, we weather the storm side by side, and it's actually incredibly meaningful to have that camaraderie.
David Pay 25:25 And this space, if you haven't been to the Post at 750 during push, there are public events that are often during music on main throughout the season. It's an amazing space and it was designed by a Simsekuric architect so that we would bump into each other so that we have our communal spaces, we have our lounge spaces, we have our hallways so that these conversations would happen.
David Pay 25:47 So as we were building it, we knew that creative stuff would happen and that being around each other the creative stuff would happen. And then we discovered
Gabrielle Martin 25:55 Do you have a good idea?
David Pay 25:57 I think for all the employees there but you know I can speak as a leader of one of the organizations that the leader to leader conversations that you have like you know Gabrielle and I had to make a real appointment to show up for lunch and have a conversation today but when you just bump into each other by the kitchen sink as you're making lunch as you're coming or going as you get results from a grant as you get a huge success with an artist it's that bumping into each other and talking about how we're managing and navigating everything that has changed my practice as an arts administrator hugely and then the camaraderie between all the organizations is I think something that supports every single employee in that space.
Gabrielle Martin 26:38 something that would be very easy to take for granted. But that is really contribute to the well -being and sustainability, I think, to the organizations that are there. Just to kind of, I'm curious to hear your perspective as a kind of last question I have for you.
Gabrielle Martin 26:54 You know, you spoke to Push's significance when Push started and when you first started the relationship with Push. And, you know, the city has changed since then. Culture has changed.
David Pay 27:07 changed, the arts have changed. It's 20 years isn't that long. It's been a busy change -filled 20 years.
Gabrielle Martin 27:18 Yeah, so I guess I'm curious from your perspective, and you've spoken to it a bit, but why it's still interesting for Music on Main to a partner, why over the years it's continued to be a significant relationship for Music on Main, and if you have any kind of insight into how the context around Khrush and Music on Main has shifted over the years.
Gabrielle Martin 27:46 Yeah.
David Pay 27:47 So many things in there. I mentioned earlier that on the music on the inside we never take for granted that we're going to continue to collaborate, but it's easy to collaborate when we can pop into each other's office and be like, hey, you want to look at something that I'm really excited about?
David Pay 28:05 And so there's that side of sort of how it continues to go. Why does that remain interesting? I want to go back to audiences for that. There are projects that come across my desk or that I'm thinking about creating that I'm like, oh, this would be juicy with Push.
David Pay 28:21 This is something that we could really dig into with Push, with Push's audiences. This is something that would be, the music would be received better, the performance will be received better if it can be with an audience that isn't just music, discipline, and focus.
David Pay 28:36 So I think there's huge value, and as contemporary music shifts and becomes more interdisciplinary, I think that the composer side of that still doesn't have the same prominence. Composers don't have the same prominence in other fields, in other art disciplines that they have in music.
David Pay 28:55 And so it's sort of like if we're going to value a playwright, how do we value the composer? And then how do you make interdisciplinary work actually happen? And how do you elevate, how through multidisciplinary work can you elevate all of the art so that it's like, I'm a music guy, you're a circus person, like the dance person, that all of us can connect with the art forms we want and still hold on all the other art forms as equal.
Gabrielle Martin 29:23 I think, you know, creative risk and interdisciplinary are really important aspects of the Push Festival and sometimes, you know, it is a multidisciplinary festival. Not every project is interdisciplinary, but as a festival, there is an interdisciplinary that happens because of that coexistence of different forms and it's, yeah, interesting how different forms, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 29:45 There's different focuses, priorities, yeah. I know.
David Pay 29:50 For me, early on through work, Tom Cohn, Karen Love, Marie Lopez, and I had an organization called Cabinet Interdisciplinary Collaborations. This was sort of around the same time that Norman and Katrina were founding Push, and it was to look at the difference between multi -discipline and inter -discipline, where multi -discipline is disciplines happening simultaneously, or the showing of different disciplines in the world.
David Pay 30:19 It brings together music and dance, or theater and something, like these multi -disciplinary things. Whereas interdisciplinary takes from all of these different forms, these different disciplines, and makes them into something.
David Pay 30:34 It's sort of like that third thing, you bring two things together and it becomes something else. So we were really digging into this idea of interdisciplinary versus multidisciplinary. And I think the words often get used interchangeably, but the Terminal City Soundscape was conceived as an interdisciplinary work.
David Pay 30:56 Minasham had a film in it, it used theater techniques to have people in the audience who started speaking during one of the pieces. We tried to look at if multidisciplinary would be a film with music happening at the same time.
David Pay 31:10 Interdisciplinary is something about film and music can only happen together. They don't exist on their own, they can only exist as a single entity. So yeah, we tried to dig in with that, and Cabinet was a part of that, and I think that was also part of early thinking around how do you and the Kinney City to do.
Gabrielle Martin 31:31 It is.
David Pay 31:32 and also offer up during the push.
Gabrielle Martin 31:35 It's exciting, wow. Stay tuned for 2025. Push and Music on Main. Which I'm very excited for. And beyond. Thanks so much, David, for this long -term relationship that I had the pleasure of stepping into.
Gabrielle Martin 31:51 It wasn't a given. We've been able to have our own conversations with our curatorial interests and see where they align, and that's been really exciting. And also just the never -ending support that comes from you and your team as neighbors of the space.
David Pay 32:04 right back at us from you guys, like the never -ending support. It really is, it's hard to describe, like I was going to say, amazing, life -changing, like to be able to share that space with Push, with Touchstone, with Doc, you know, for all of us at Music on Main, it makes such a difference.
Gabrielle Martin 32:22 Thanks, Dave.
David Pay 32:23 Thanks, everyone.
Ben Charland 32:26 That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.
Ben Charland 32:43 A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Ben Charland 33:02 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. We'll see you next time. | |||
| 13 Jan 2025 | Ep. 53 - Risk and Empowerment (Inner Sublimity) | 00:42:22 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Sammy Chien and Caroline MacCaull of Chimerik. They are presenting Inner Sublimity at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. Check out the show on February 7, 8 and 9 at the Vancouver Art Gallery. Show Notes Gabrielle, Sammy and Caroline discuss:
About Sammy Chien Sammy Chien 簡上翔 is a Taiwanese-Canadian immigrant and queer artist-of-colour, who’s a multi-award-winning interdisciplinary artist, director, performer, researcher and mentor in film, sound art, new media, performance, movement and spiritual practice. With over 500 collaborative projects, his work has been shared across Canada, Western Europe, and Asia including Centre Pompidou (Paris), the National Centre for the Performing Arts (Beijing), National Art Centre (Ottawa), Stratford Festival, Art Night Venezia (Venice Biennale) and Documenta 15. He’s worked with pioneers of digital performance: Troika Ranch and Wong Kar Wai’s Cinematographer Christopher Doyle and hundreds of internationally celebrated artists and companies. Sammy has been featured on magazines, TV and commercials such as Discorder, Keedan, CBC Arts and BenQ. Sammy is currently co-leading dance projects “We Were One” & “Inner Sublimity”; intergenerational media arts project “Ritual-Spective 迴融”; documentary film “Soul Speaking”, funded by Canada Council for the Arts and BC Arts Council. Sammy is the official instructor of Isadora, Council of MotionDAO, Co-Artistic Director of Third Space Arts Collective and Co-Founder/Co-Artistic Director of Chimerik 似不像, a multi-award winning interdisciplinary non-profit arts organization who’s worked with Google, Microsoft & NIKE, while prioritizing the focus on empowering various underrepresented communities with various sectoral change research and digital community projects such as Chimerik’s Virtual Live Art Database. Sammy is the winner of the Changemaker Award for BCMA 2022 (BC Museums Association) for creative engagements that increase awareness of underrepresented voices & the 2023/2024 Chrystal Dance Prize. www.sammychien.com About Caroline MacCaull Caroline MacCaull (she/they) is a queer interdisciplinary artist living and working on the unceded and stolen territories of the Coast Salish peoples, including the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh First nations. As a dance-technology artist her work often questions reality and our perceptions. She holds a BFA from Simon Fraser University School for the Contemporary Arts and has had her work presented by Shooting Gallery Performance Series, Co.ERASGA’s Salon Series, Gallery Series 258, Vines Arts Festival, New Works, K.Format/documenta 15 (Kassel, Germany), Drink & Draw (Berlin), FOUND festival (Edmonton), Festival International de Danse Animée (Réunion) and the Scotiabank Dance Centre. She has been artist-in-residence at What Lab (Vancouver), LEÑA (Galiano Island), Dance Victoria (Victoria, BC), ArtStarts Ignites (Vancouver), DeerLake (Burnaby), Dance on Fluid (Taiwan) and NKK Dance Centre (Siem Reap, Cambodia). As a movement artist she has had the opportunity to collaborate and interpret movement with Peter Chin/Tribal Crackling Wind, Okams Racer, The Falling Company, Oksana Augustine and Restless Productions. Caroline is currently the Co-Artistic Director of the Chimerik 似不像 which has given her the opportunity to work as a New Media/Projection Artist on various projects with many different artists/organizations. Some of these include: Veronique West(Rumble Theatre), Mily Mumford (PTC), Jasmine Chen(Rice and Beans Theatre), Zahra Shahab, Restless Productions, Affair of Honor, Ralph Escamillan(Van Vogue Jam), Luke Reece(Theatre Passe Muraille), Arts Club, Active / Passive, Indian Summer Festival, Stratford Festival and Mayumi Lashbrook(Aeris Korper). Caroline is very grateful to be one of the 2023/2024 Chrystal Dance Prize recipients. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:01 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights collective healing and overcoming our shadow selves.
00:17 I'm speaking with Sami Chen and Caroline McCall, artists behind Inner Sublimity, which is being presented at the Push Festival February 7th to 9th, 2025. Inner Sublimity traverses currents of Eastern and Western philosophy through dance, creating a dynamic dialogue between traditions preserved across generations.
00:36 Through this synthesis of paradigms, the artists spark new connections between disparate cultural backgrounds, carving an artistic practice that challenges colonial narratives and enriches contemporary explorations of spirituality.
00:50 Sami and Caroline are the co-artistic directors of Chameric, a multi-award-winning interdisciplinary non-profit organization consisting of artists from underrepresented groups, from various age groups, backgrounds, levels of experience and disciplines.
01:05 Chameric has collaborated on over 500 multidisciplinary projects, which have been exhibited internationally. Sami is a first-generation Taiwanese-Canadian immigrant and queer artist of colour, director, performer, researcher, and mentor who works with film, sound art, new media, performing arts, and spiritual practice.
01:24 Caroline is a femme-identified queer artist with background in movement, dance, new media, and mediumship. Here is my conversation with Caroline and Sami. And I know just before we hit record, you commented that today is the U.S.
01:41 election, so it's an interesting day to be doing this. There's all sorts of other pressures and nerves in the air. Yeah, it feels like you're saying it feels like a pressure cooker. You know, we are all in right now and not knowing what's going to happen next, but we are in here talking about, you know, you know, this exploration, this spirituality, and it just feels like the right time to be, to have those pressure and then something might come out that we don't even know as well.
02:09 So it's kind of exciting. I appreciate that optimism in terms of the unknown, the unknown can still be a positive place. We are on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the settler on these lands, and I continue to try to educate myself on the ongoing legacy of colonization, the ongoing colonialism here, and I often lean on or reach to the Yellowhead Institute for their incredible words and just framing the state that we're living in now.
02:55 So I'm just going to share some words from them on with regard to land back. Land theft is currently driven by an unsustainable undemocratic and fatal rush toward mass extinction through extraction development and capitalist imperatives.
03:10 It is further enabled by a racist erasure of indigenous law and jurisdiction. And as Yellowhead Research Fellow Henderson has noted, this fatal rush functions as a kind of malware released into our ecological system.
03:25 Indigenous legal orders embody critical knowledge that can relink society to a healthy balance within the natural world. This change must begin on the ground. Canada ceding real jurisdiction to indigenous peoples for this transformation to happen.
03:40 So thank you to the Yellowhead Institute's land back resources, specifically the red paper. We're going to shift gears a little bit in just getting right into talking about inner sublimity, which is the work, your work that's going to be realized during the push festival.
04:03 inner sublimity traverses currents of Eastern and Western philosophy. And I would love to hear what that looks like and feels like within this work, and how it relates to your wider practices. First, we want to say we love how you frame the question of look and feel, it just right off the bat for us to want to hear that question and really dive right into the body of the feeling, you know, and I will say that is probably where we will begin the process,
04:35 you know, about integrating the East, Eastern and Western philosophy and culture is through energetic practice. So why I say that because, you know, in dance, you know, and embodiment, it is really based on feeling the sentient, right?
04:50 And this senses our primary faculty of to connect everything together in our research, our journeys and inspiration, how we create work. And a lot of that in multiple different cultures and whether it's Eastern or Western, there is a lot of theories and research around consciousness and energy vibration.
05:12 And then for Eastern, it's quite, there is a lot of more focus in terms of energetic practices, such as qigong, it's one of the form. And it's kind of quite a wildly practiced form that focus on the flow of energy in the body.
05:28 So then, you know, you can gain this intelligence and control over energy through the body, which we all have, but just not paying attention and really cultivate, you know, the control or the embodiment of energy.
05:43 So I want to make it. I want to share that with the audience, you know, like the qigong is not just, you know, a practice that has to be its own form, but almost as a philosophy. And I was an inspiration for people to understand that it's just an entry point for us to access energy through our body and our consciousness, right?
06:04 So our mind activating those pathways and then have energy moving through. And it doesn't not only translate visually, but also by feeling energetically and vibrationally as well. So that I would say that is some of the entry point that we have is that you will actually feel the energy shift in the work, how we connect to each other, how we connect with the audience, how we connect with the space and how we connect with the spirit in the space as well.
06:38 Yeah. And I guess I wanted to just also kind of take a little bit of a side note off of that. But when we're talking about Eastern and Western philosophy within this context of this work and in our larger practice, we also really want to go into the nuances and complexities of those kind of dialogues, rather than thinking, oh, everything is great.
06:58 And, you know, we're able to move in this way together. We really want to dive into some of those shadow places where there's hard conversations, there's different kind of, you know, I think in a broad stroke, there's a lot of appropriation of these different cultures.
07:15 And we want to go into those difficult and challenging subjects so that we can arrive to a place where we have a deeper understanding of each other. And so throughout the work, there's moments of very meditative state.
07:28 When we talk about Eastern culture, we talk about this kind of like time passing, how we're witnessing time is a little bit at a slower pace, perhaps. But we also want to go into those moments of tension, conflict and really feel together what it means.
07:45 to be witnessing and experiencing that as a collective, so that we can also make decisions to kind of arrive to a new place together. So that's kind of some of the feelings that we're trying to wrap up within this work and within some of our broader practices within the context of Sami and myself both being from Eastern and Western kind of places.
08:07 Yeah, Kiran, you're right about like how, I mean, we're just talking about generalizing terms, right? Like how Western sense of time is quite linear based, right? You have the beginning, middle, and you're taught to think about narrative, you know, shapes and form, linear kind of progression.
08:25 And then in Eastern, again, generally speaking, you know, I'm generalizing the kind of overall framework of what holds the foundation of the culture a lot of the time, the sense of time is very different.
08:35 It's more cyclical, you know, there is more sense of meditativeness, which, you know, then the time kind of expands differently in the less linear. sense, you know, but of course, acknowledging the globalization, you know, a lot of people say, when I go to Asia, I don't feel the same way.
08:51 It's like, yes, it's modernization, modernity, globalization that's happening. We are in this big mess together, integrating both cultures from different routes, and that messiness and the shadow work, the conflict, you know, the dilemma is why we're also very interested in talking about that discomfort, what that is, and going deep down so we don't stay on this kind of just the point of like the generalization,
09:15 the superficial way of looking at each culture. And how does this project exist as part of a wider revitalizing movement of ancient wisdom and spirituality, specifically Taiwanese? Well, even talking about Taiwan is a very risky, it's anti-oppression work politically to be even talking about Taiwan.
09:39 So it's, I do want to say that it's very empowering to be in a place where we can even speak about that in this current political climate, because for the audience that doesn't understand the political situation, the history that, you know, there is like complex history, like colonialism that's going on in Taiwan that happened over the last 400 years.
10:03 And there were Dutch people and Spanish and Japanese colonialism that happened. And Taiwan has its own people, like my family has been there over 16 generations in our family book, we can trace back for 16 generations.
10:21 And then, and then another seven generations before they were installed in China to the migration. So when we talk about that, right now, Taiwan is being censored to be called a country with, you know, having its own presidency and currency and different, there's difference in culture as well.
10:43 I'm not here. to advocate Taiwanese independence, but I'm just talking about how it is where we are right now in Canada to be able to talk freely about this kind of discourse is actually a super valuable and progressive thing to actually have that kind of value we have right now.
11:01 And I'm grateful for being able to even speak about that. And the revitalization of spirituality in Taiwan is quite interesting because of the culture itself, you know, growing up, I didn't realize until I came to the West, you know, how we are quite conditioned, you know, in our brain to be very spiritual.
11:24 So ancestral rituals. a very common thing we do, everyday lives, we go to temples and it's not specific religion, it's more a mix and match of different folklore religion together. So it just became a lifestyle, right, growing up.
11:39 And we don't even question, just like something that we do with our parents, our grandparents or aunties, uncles, you know, and big families, we all do that together, even friends, you know, when you need certain things, you go to temple for certain, certain like requests that you have, you know, not, I don't want to advocate greed and all that stuff on spiritual, what we can talk about later, but it's just so ingrained in our culture.
12:00 And so it wasn't never a question, even the phone phrase situation, the direction of the space, how we understand energy, it's already in the culture so much. And I don't think people value that so much because just, you know, it's normalized, right?
12:15 And the globalization, the Westernization, it's been deemed as superstition, you know, and being reduced to lower value or uneducated kind of thinking. So the revitalization is about going back to the empowerment of those roots and history and to our spiritual culture that has been rooted for hundreds of years, tracing back and its mixture with indigenous culture as well, with indigenous people in Taiwan as well,
12:44 there is a lot of crossover sharing knowledge that also happened as much as the, you know, the problem of colonization and racial happiness or just also acknowledge that that happens everywhere. So, but now while talking about integration, revitalization and a lot of ritual practice are kind of integrating together in new ways.
13:05 And the young people are finding a, there's almost like a trend to like go back to the roots of what is Taiwanese ritual, Taiwanese spirituality, the kind of a temple shamans that are seen like from the older generation now are being empowered back, like they'll integrate techno music, electronic music, rave.
13:27 parties, you know, all these really like current underground movement with this grassroots kind of an older generational historic culture. Yeah, so that's interesting. Yeah, when we were there in Taiwan, it was quite interesting because we spent four months in Taiwan this last year doing some research and different kind of yeah, practiced in development with this piece as well.
13:54 And so we spent a lot of time having dialogues with various people from different kind of backgrounds and in various kind of religions, either monks or different kind of shamans or in the temples. And it was so interesting to also hear about this kind of almost this need to come back to this like almost emergent feeling of needing to come back to something much larger than yourself.
14:22 I think when we talk a lot about like Westernization in specifically Taiwan, like Taiwan is very heavily reliant on the US right now for their power dynamics. And I think a lot about the control and different invisible things that we don't always see that are happening behind the scenes and how that is also holding Taiwan in a different way.
14:43 And I think coming back to the people and coming back to these kind of everyday rituals is allowing a new kind of sense of belonging and identity that is kind of been missing over the last little while.
14:54 Oh, yes. And speaking of which, I do want to, because Gabriel, you mentioned about the ancient western. It is one of our research from years ago is, many of you might already know this, the word dance, the Chinese character of dance that we're using language in Taiwan that is the traditional character.
15:20 It's like a lot closer to the Oracle bone script. So I'm talking about this ancient Chinese language that's used across the Chinese speakers around the world. The character of dance, its original form is a shaman with holding spiritual tools like jades and feathers, rotating, basically doing ancestral and ancient rituals.
15:44 That is the character where dance evolved from. So then thinking about how we talk about dance and performance in the common everyday language while looking at a shaman doing rituals. And that is the secret work of what dance is.
16:03 So that is kind of that connection back to this culture and our context of movement practice. So this is a work that's been in development. And so I haven't seen what will be this realization of it, which is really exciting.
16:18 But when we sat down to talk about this work, you know what, I've seen some other pieces of your work. when we sat down to talk about what this piece could be. I mean, I just was really excited in terms of all the research and the intersection of practices that you hold.
16:35 And I would love to hear you speak about what mediumship is and the power, its power in this performance context. Yeah, thank you. So originally, I'll just give a tiny bit of context, but originally when just before I met Sammy in 2019, I was having these experiences Westernly diagnosed with schizophrenia or psychosis, and I wasn't quite sure where to reach out to in alignment with finding resources beyond beyond just the Western kind of medical approach.
17:14 And shortly after that, I had met Sammy and he had exposed me. and brought me to some of his different spiritual teachers from Taiwan and from various other places in the world and started opening up some of these kind of ideas for me of what this could be in a different context.
17:33 And through that kind of expanding experience and research, we've begun begun to explore how this can also be transcended into a way of sharing this kind of experience through performance. For the audience listening to this, it's in the Western lens, again, generalizing it.
17:55 When we talk about this kind of spiritual experiences, people think about ghost possession. They think about paranormal activity. They think about woo-woo stuff right away. So it's scary, right? Or they think about this person is crazy.
18:08 You are mentally ill, that it is your making stuff out psychologically. So that's usually where people go to in the Western context right away. And for us, again, growing up in the Eastern world, if you would tell my mom or my aunties about, oh, this is what I'm experiencing.
18:27 They will say, well, do you want to go to the temple and ask the shaman to see if there's something going on spiritually that's bugging you about this? So right away, I didn't come in with the prejudice, or around like what her experiences are and actually understand there, we just need to help find the expert, the right expert to figure out what to do.
18:48 And that's where this whole thing unfolds into actually full on, you know, legitimize meditation practice. Yeah. So that was so empowering to have those moments of dialogue and also to have these like intergenerational dialogues with his family and being able to share and not feel judged in these moments and really allowed us to go deeper into what are these experiences and how can we transform them into something that is more current and maybe it could work within our artistic practice.
19:19 So through, I mean now it's been about four years of specifically working on how to integrate this like safely into our performance practice, but we've kind of cultivated a space where we're able to call spirit and go into like a mediumship trance state, on stage performing it live and allowing people to feel what that actually means in that context and maybe receive what they need at that moment without me having to specifically tell them anything.
19:50 Just because I feel like sometimes with a more outdated states of mediumship, it is very much like it can get into states of telling you how you should feel or how you should experience your ancestors in your way and or in the way that I am prescribing to you.
20:08 But I really want to kind of open that up and also kind of decolonize some of that practice in a way of letting it flow and see how it can touch you in the way that. you need to be held in that, in that moment.
20:22 And just for the audience, like this is real stuff we're doing. It's not just performing a mediumship. It's actually doing this for real. So that's what it's, there is a sense of like real stake, you know, real risk.
20:39 And then when I say race, it's like, we are not just pretending and have to hit the marks, you know, the shapes are in shape. It's like, no, we really have to mind body spiritually, like be there and fully channel and connect and practice with the spirits on you, making sure you're, you know, it's the same, you know, building that rapport as well and have that same framework and bring a whole new,
21:00 a kind of experience for the audience, right? Whole new framework. Yes. And this work is being designed for performance at the Vancouver Art Gallery, which is, you know, a very exciting partnership and a very exciting space.
21:15 But I would actually like to hear what excites you about realizing this work in that space. And maybe you can speak a little bit more to, yeah, how the space influences the design of the experience. Because I know that there's a number of performance or aspects to the design of this experience that draw people into a state of presence, embodied space, and also a space of ritual.
21:42 If you're, I don't know if you're actually using that word with regard to your performance. But yeah, love to hear about that, about the excitement around the use of the space and the general design elements to evoke these kinds of effects, yeah.
21:56 For the audience doesn't know the history of Vancouver Art Gallery, right? The VAG, it was built in 1906 as a provincial courthouse. And the basement is actually a prison, you know? So when you go in, there are some parts when the art party or the old fields, you know, when you open up those spaces there, that's a courtroom.
22:12 And this is like, you know, actually a prison. So, and, you know, it's historically, so that. context is very interesting to be in that building. And also it's the it's very iconic, right? It's a capital A kind of art in there.
22:27 Like, you know, people go there to to see what is the most like prestigious art in the city. And at the same time, you know, it's speaking of like that, it's historically a while, sorry, a white male dominated kind of a space, right?
22:44 You know, people think of like, only white men does art in here as I'm watching white men, white men, type painting. So I think to partner up with the VAC, when push festival, you know, and doing this type of work, it's really progressive.
22:57 And it's quite, you know, quite revolutionary to bring in this kind of work to witness something like this. And then we are taking a lot of risks in the way of like, you know, in theater is a different kind of safe space for performers.
23:10 You know, we're taking more risks in a different way. When we are in the gallery setting, you know, I feel like We both feel like the gallery space they set out has a different kind of amplification and resonance of the energy when we perform.
23:24 And also gallery is used to holding space for audience while coming to see stillness, to see still object, still paintings and sculpture close up in fine details. It demands already that kind of attention, right?
23:41 Very different from theater in many different ways. And then imagine this kind of audience is cultivating this kind of a scale of perception quality or coming to see this type of work where it's slow.
23:53 There's a lot of refined slowness movement, a lot of details and shift of vibration that's just slow and refined for them to actually take the time to be in the space to feel that as if you're watching a sculpture, moving, moving slowly, right?
24:09 And that to me, it's quite, it's very exciting. Yeah, totally. It's so exciting. And I also think that we're really grateful for this opportunity to get to spend more time in the Vancouver Art Gallery and think about how the work can really be integrated within that kind of space.
24:25 I mean, there's definitely a lot of creative challenges that come up working in a museum space, just even technically you can't have certain objects in there and you have to be careful of where the art is.
24:37 And so it's also allowing us to re-imagine and rethink how this work can cohesively kind of work with this space. Because a lot of our art and our practices about really that deep integration with either technology or with movement and I think also the space and how that all works together through an experience.
24:59 So we're really grateful to get to have that time. And every Tuesday where it's closed, we get to spend time to really think about how that will work together in the new year. So yeah, very grateful to think about how this can be reimagined in this way.
25:14 And you've been very creative and it's. since it was going to be in this space. And then there was a really large art piece that, I mean, the team at The Vag has been so great with us, you know, but just realistically, I think we had that surprise last week.
25:29 Oh, there's actually a giant art piece that can only go in the space that you were going to have your performance in, so. And now the audience get to go through this gate of heaven before they come to see our work.
25:41 And then it's going to be surrounded by a bunch of paintings that are in similar themes. So almost like when we think of attending churches or temples, they're all sacred kind of architecture. We're all coming to a different type of creative sacred architecture being surrounded by that.
25:56 And it's not something as like, you know, Dan's audience would just get to experience, right? Because you get to then have a totally different experience by the space and then see this, you know, to feel this experience coming out of that as well.
26:11 Yeah. I find that really, really exciting for the audience to actually go through, yeah. And you just referenced it, Caroline, technology in your work. So that's something that you're also really known for, that America is really known for, audiovisual, incredible audiovisual design.
26:30 You speak about using technology as extensions of the body. I would love to know what that looks like in this work. I think because we're really diving into this energetic practice within this work, it only makes sense for us to also continue to expand that through the unseen kind of visualization using technology of what that could be or what that could look like.
26:57 We, of course, don't want to spoon-feed the audience, but we want to allow them to open their mind and not have to worry about having to watch the body so closely in this kind of way, but also thinking about the whole space being the body.
27:15 Yeah. And just to, not to brag, but just like this is something that we've been doing over 15 years in our company is really to give you some audience, some context. This is one of our primary research is to center on the body embodiment sensory with technology, right?
27:39 So dance technology is our center of our research and our work. And we specialize this sense of immediacy, making sure that technology does not overpower the body, overpower the frequency that you animate from the body, the actual performance value and the experience, right?
28:02 The technology is always here to support. It's part of the body. So you won't be like your hands are not going to take over the whole show. Your eyes aren't going to take over the whole show, but the gates is so important.
28:13 your finger articulation, it just is important as your full body's movement, right? So we've got to think of that as part of our technology as well. It's part of our body, and that's something we really advocate and focus on.
28:27 So for this piece, really, we want to make sure that technology really is becoming a channel to kind of continue to open the bandwidth of what our body and spirit and our energy can do. It's continuing to amplify those bandwidth of frequency.
28:44 And so some people are really, really sensitive to that. So some audience might be like, I can feel you without opening my eyes. I can go through the experience, just like just feeling you being on stage, da, da, da, da.
28:56 But somebody says, I don't really see that, but because there's a projection that bridge the gap of those information, now it allows me to be on the same ride with this other person who are, you know, a meditator or a monk, you know?
29:10 So it's just like, they are, it's there to really facilitate the experience. So then help you amplify those channels so you can all be connected in a deeper sense. Yeah, I'm just gonna jump in because I've seen and experienced your work.
29:24 And so I know I feel very clear when you're describing that. I have images and I get that, but I'm wondering if you could give an example. So specifically with this work, we've kind of created a, we'll call it a DIY kind of motion capture setting system.
29:44 Sorry, not setting system. And by using that, we're able to kind of really show the particles that are falling off of the body, thinking of it as like, what if our energy were to expand through the ground?
29:59 What would that feel like? And how would that look? What would that look like? I think specifically thinking of it as a collaborator in this way, as a reflection, as an expansion allows us to really center on thinking about how technology can really support the work versus again, what Sammy was saying, like take away from the experience or compete with the work.
30:26 Yeah, because part of the actual experience is that like, when you work with energy, we in our practice, we call sending the power. And then when you send the power, you can gather energy, energy going through, we conjure the energy.
30:39 And then to expand that, you can imagine your own energy kind of expanding. outside of your skin and then you start to go beyond to like some people might kiss your astral body you know and subtle body and all these turns so you really can feel the shift that happens so the audience that are sensitive they can feel that shift so audience like cannot feel that shift right away you know we have projection to kind of just hint that you know subtly that this energy are actually shifting and going beyond your skin you're on your body and how that it's almost like a vibration that particle lies and comes back and another thing that Caroline does you know i hope it's not spoiled too much but the pendulum you know is another kind of technology we're using working with the spiritual mediumship practice yeah so with the pendulum we're we're using it as a way of actually guiding the movement through the space but also as a way now to expand into the soundscape as well live so we're thinking about how spirit could guide how the sound is changing in real time as well as the movement and the projection.
31:47 So this kind of extension of body, extension of self, extension of sound. Sound, yeah, and power I think is all rooted together in this kind of beautiful way that we're continuing to explore. But just a good, there are so many different example.
32:03 Those are just two that we can pick up. We do want the audience to create their own journey as well to think about how their own technology that this mechanism designed by modern nature, how your technology can also interface with our work as well.
32:19 And that is the most exciting part of why we want to create performance for audience to witness that as well. The continuation of the technology working with the body. And you talk about the creation journey for this piece with regard to research, creative exploration, iterations.
32:35 Yeah, this is a long time research that has kind of shifted through many different iterations and explorations until it's landed into this piece that we're really excited about. When we first were talking about some of this initial research, it was back in 2020 when we were kind of going through a phase where we were both really dealing with our own shadows at that moment and our own biases against each other.
33:04 Meaning like Sammy had dealt with a lot of racism and there was a lot of work that I was highlighting for him to unpack and same with me. And I had a lot of anger towards men were, and there was a lot of unpacking to do with that kind of process.
33:25 Since then, we've done many different residencies kind of across the world, including in Cambodia, working with Peter Chin as a mentor to kind of think about how we can formalize some of these grand ideas.
33:44 Yeah, it's, I just want to say like when we first met each other, it really felt like it's like our worst enemy manifested in what each other stands for in the societal lens, you know, there's like a social in both our social conditioning of like what our worst enemies, you know, this for me, it was like, I didn't trust white people, you know, I did it, I, you know, someone mentor that were racialized mentor that were still traumatized by,
34:11 you know, a lot of racism, they will, I was really conditioning saying that we can't trust white people about doing sharing our culture, you know, what can be tokenized appropriated, you know, there is a lot of fear, there's a lot of like, I would say, you know, there's danger and risk in sharing like deeper spirituality and, and I'm sure a lot of people are still feeling that way, you know, so we want to say that's real,
34:34 you know, that's what it is something that people are going through and we fall through that. We had to go through so much shadow work. There's a lot of pain. At the same time, I feel like what I used to call white people out on, I stand in that power of being seen as a man, which I never really identified myself as man, but on the societal lens, I'm still, I represent men in Caroline's lens.
35:03 So for me, it was interesting. I go through my own fragility, male fragility, be like, no, that's not me. I didn't do all this stuff. And then she's doing the same thing. We're both like, well, innocent, but we hate you, each other.
35:16 And at the same time, that complex, because love really brought us together to really fight through all these stereotypes and stigma and pain that we, it's so ingrained deep down to our psychic and our subconscious level.
35:31 But then a lot of times people would have given up already. I've given up so many times too, just to be safe, right? We need to take care of ourselves. But because our journey being twin flames, having our soul to be reincarnated into this lifetime to meet together, that we felt like we really, it's our purpose to really have to learn and push through those hardship and the shadow, the deeper shadow work.
35:57 And then we really want to share that part of the process and journey. And it really is not easy to face your own fear, discomfort, the darkest part of you. You don't begin healing until you recognize those dark part of you in the shadow.
36:18 But then you can do that by yourself too. You gotta do it with yourself and with people that you trust can help you do those baby steps until you, I wouldn't say you get out of it, but you just grow more muscle, you get more trust and you have more trust in humanity as well in different ways.
36:36 And then, through the process we're like we want to share more of this story because the more we get to know each other the more feel like we can share this connection and love we have for each other and hopefully that will amplify further to just elicit evoke some of the more creative and loving energy around the world a little bit right yeah i think especially globally there's so much divide happening right now and part of the reason why we're so excited by this work and by what we're doing together is kind of trying to think about how we can collectively heal some of these kind of misunderstandings or i mean shadows and really facing those things like i didn't know that that hurt you and really how do we unpack some of these situations together and through a more intersectional kind of lens and so Yeah,
37:26 it's been a lot of work and it's we've arrived in various kind of creative processes and then also personal processes. There's a lot of peers emotionally down in the studio and the journey. Yeah. But then it's still like it's always worth every process at all.
37:45 That was so worth to conjure that to process and to let go and release some of the things that it's not needed anymore as well. Like, oh, the things we really care about, we hold on to this value. It's like, oh, actually, that's not needed in this current time.
37:57 No, that's that's that's that's into something else. And that that feels very healthy and like moving forward. Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. When I hear you speak, like, first of all, it's so generous of you to share the real internal processes that, you know, I think creative process is often gets to those deep personal places, especially if you're really if you're going deep, if you're really doing like authentic research.
38:23 And so just to hear kind of the honesty around that and and the root of also, you know, your mediumship practice. It's, I think, really generous to share that with our with me and with the listeners because it's it's honest and because I think it's relatable.
38:43 A lot of these things are, you know, with regard to like the personal work we have to do, understanding. Intersectionality, how we are situated socially given the power constructs we exist in and and also like, you know, how mental health is viewed and and our general Western disconnect from spirituality and all these things.
39:04 So I'm just so excited that that you are bringing this work to push. I'm so excited to experience it in this iteration. I genuinely look forward to discovering it and just being present in the moment to experience it alongside the other audience members.
39:26 participants who will be there on the journey. And I'm so thrilled to follow your practice. Yeah, I think we're very blessed to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much. We are so grateful. And again, I, when we say our gratitude, it's not just, you know, a usual gratitude.
39:49 It's like, there's so many layers as we talk about, you know, how brave you are to pick up, to actually program our work, you know, and how much value you see, because you also are super open-minded person with such a diverse, you know, view on what's going on with the world.
40:05 You understand the complexity and that's needed in this political landscape that's happening right now. I would say some people might not get our work and someone like you, who does, who are, you know, bring us, this project into such a...
40:21 a beautiful and empowering kind of platform to share that in this really, I would say rare, collaboration with the Vancouver Art Gallery as well. For us, it really amplifies our deep, deep value of our project and our belief and some of the really deep down, so I think the sole value, the sole work that we wanna do for the world.
40:48 So again, thank you so much for having us to talk about the project and also be able to share this for real in the Vancouver Art Gallery Super Push Festival. Yes, thank you so much. We're so grateful.
41:00 It's been such a pleasure to get to talk to you and get to know more about you as well and we're so excited. Thank you. Thank you. You just heard Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Sami Chen and Caroline Rigal of Chamerique.
41:19 Presented with the Vancouver Art Gallery, inner sublimity will show at Push Festival February 7th to 9th. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and the lovely Ben Charland. Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi.
41:33 New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. This year marks the 20th festival for Push International Performing Arts Festival. If you'd like to explore more of Push over the last 20 years, please look for our special 20th anniversary retrospective Push Play season.
41:52 And for more information on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media.
42:06 Coming up on the next Push Play. How do I use this performance to actively reshape my life? And how do I use this performance to indulge in communities and meet with people that I wouldn't normally meet with? | |||
| 04 Jan 2024 | Ep. 15 - DARKMATTER: post-humanism | 00:22:14 | |
Cherish Menzo discusses her work’s consideration of the Black body in the context of post-humanism. See DARKMATTER at the 2024 PuSH Festival Jan 29-31. Co-Presented with SFU Woodward’s Cultural Programs. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin discusses DARKMATTER with co-creator and choreographer Cherish Menzo. The show will be presented at the 2024 PuSh Festival from January 29-31 at the SFU Goldcorp Centre for the Arts. Gabrielle and Cherish discuss the “chopped and screwed” remix technique, the Black body in the context of post-humanism, the equal roles of the beauty and the grotesque in the context of this work, and more, including.
Cherish’s Inspirations Cherish mentioned a few points of inspiration for her work today:
About Cherish Menzo Cherish Menzo (Brussels/Amsterdam) is one of the four artistic leaders of the dance organization GRIP, together with Femke Gyselinck, Jan Martens and Steven Michel. As a dancer/performer, Cherish has appeared in the work of Lisbeth Gruwez, Jan Martens, Nicole Beutler, Eszter Salamon, Benjamin Kahn, Akram Khan and others. As a choreographer, her powerful movement language comes into its own in her own work, which tours internationally. Cherish seeks out forms of movement and being, while placing beauty and the grotesque on an equal footing. She consciously seeks out an alienating effect to guide both the viewer and herself away from the known. Away from the familiar that we sometimes too easily equate with ‘the (only) truth’. She floats between the nostalgia of 90s and 00s hip-hop and the realms of industrial hip-hop, rap lyrics, manga and speculative fiction. She created JEZEBEL (’19) and DARKMATTER (‘22) with GRIP and Frascati Producties, both productions were selected for both the Theaterfestival in Flanders and its Dutch counterpart. GRIP was founded in 2014 by choreographer and dancer Jan Martens and manager Klaartje Oerlemans. From 2023 on, GRIP choreographers Femke Gyselinck, Jan Martens, Cherish Menzo, and Steven Michel act together as artistic directors. They do so in close dialogue with Klaartje Oerlemans and Rudi Meulemans, who coordinates and facilitates the dialogue between the four makers in his role of artistic coordinator. Land Acknowledgement Cherish joins the podcast from Brussels, Belgium. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 30 Jul 2024 | Ep. 22 - The Quest (2008) | 00:36:13 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with David Hudgins and Kevin Kerr, co-founders of Vancouver’s Electric Company Theatre. Show Notes Gabrielle, David and Kevin discuss:
About David Hudgins David Hudgins is a founder of the internationally acclaimed Electric Company Theatre in Vancouver. After more than two decades with this innovative company he has won numerous Jessie Awards. David received his BA Honours in English Literature at McGill University, a diploma in Acting from Studio 58 and a PDP Diploma in Education from Simon Fraser University. He teaches acting at Studio 58 and has directed nine shows there, including two Ovation-Award winning productions: Guys & Dolls (2007) and Spring Awakening (2012). The homegrown musical The Park (2010) which he directed and helped to dramaturge, garnered it five nominations. His 5-year orchestral/physical-theatre hybrid experiment odyssey called Flee, with composer Peggy Lee, found its legs at the Fox Cabaret with Electric Company and Studio 58 in 2016. He has written song lyrics for a variety of Hollywood movies. David is also a father, musician and sailor. About Kevin Kerr Kevin Kerr is a playwright and founding member of Vancouver’s Electric Company Theatre with whom he’s collaborated on the creation of more than a dozen full-length productions, including Brilliant!, Studies in Motion and Tear the Curtain! He received the 2002 Governor General’s Literary Award for his play Unity (1918), which has been produced more than 100 times across Canada and around the world. Other plays include Skydive, Spine (both for Realwheels Theatre), The Remittance Man (Sunshine Theatre), Secret World of Og (Carousel Theatre for Young People), and The Night’s Mare (Caravan Farm Theatre). He also co-wrote the feature film adaptation of The Score for CBC Television (Screen Siren Productions) and collaborated with Stan Douglas on his interactive immersive National Film Board installation Circa 1948. His latest project is a suite of virtual reality Installations that accompany Electric Company Theatre’s newest production, The Full Light of Day. Kevin joined the University of Victoria’s Department of Writing in 2012. He currently teaches playwriting and screenwriting, with a creative focus on cinematic/theatre hybrids, collaborative creation, site-specific theatre and interactive narratives. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:21 Gabrielle Martin 00:44 Gabrielle Martin 00:58 Gabrielle Martin 01:13 Gabrielle Martin 01:19 Gabrielle Martin 01:35 Gabrielle Martin 01:53 Kevin Kerr 02:02 Kevin Kerr 02:20 David Hudgins 02:44 Gabrielle Martin 02:49 Kevin Kerr 02:52 Gabrielle Martin 03:13 Kevin Kerr 03:14 Gabrielle Martin 04:20 Kevin Kerr 04:31 David Hudgins 04:56 Gabrielle Martin 05:15 Kevin Kerr 05:30 Kevin Kerr 05:50 Kevin Kerr 06:07 Kevin Kerr 06:33 Kevin Kerr 07:01 Kevin Kerr 07:26 David Hudgins 07:49 Gabrielle Martin 08:12 Gabrielle Martin 08:31 David Hudgins 08:32 Kevin Kerr 08:54 Kevin Kerr 09:08 Kevin Kerr 09:26 David Hudgins 09:33 Kevin Kerr 09:38 Kevin Kerr 09:53 David Hudgins 10:05 Kevin Kerr 10:17 Kevin Kerr 10:39 Kevin Kerr 10:55 Gabrielle Martin 11:13 Kevin Kerr 11:15 David Hudgins 11:17 David Hudgins 11:44 David Hudgins 12:03 Kevin Kerr 12:13 Gabrielle Martin 12:21 Kevin Kerr 12:24 Kevin Kerr 12:48 Kevin Kerr 13:13 Kevin Kerr 13:28 Kevin Kerr 13:48 Gabrielle Martin 14:01 David Hudgins 14:03 David Hudgins 14:35 Kevin Kerr 14:46 David Hudgins 14:58 David Hudgins 15:13 David Hudgins 15:30 Kevin Kerr 15:35 Kevin Kerr 16:02 Kevin Kerr 16:28 Kevin Kerr 16:59 David Hudgins 17:07 Gabrielle Martin 17:24 Kevin Kerr 17:34 Gabrielle Martin 17:59 Kevin Kerr 18:04 David Hudgins 18:09 Kevin Kerr 18:15 Gabrielle Martin 19:03 David Hudgins 19:29 David Hudgins 19:44 David Hudgins 19:56 Kevin Kerr 20:07 Kevin Kerr 20:29 Kevin Kerr 20:50 Kevin Kerr 21:08 Gabrielle Martin 21:31 David Hudgins 21:46 David Hudgins 22:17 Kevin Kerr 22:29 Kevin Kerr 23:06 Kevin Kerr 23:23 Kevin Kerr 23:53 Kevin Kerr 24:17 David Hudgins 24:27 Gabrielle Martin 24:59 David Hudgins 25:08 Gabrielle Martin 25:25 Kevin Kerr 25:34 Kevin Kerr 25:59 Kevin Kerr 26:29 David Hudgins 26:51 David Hudgins 27:12 David Hudgins 27:33 David Hudgins 27:50 Kevin Kerr 28:09 Kevin Kerr 28:54 Gabrielle Martin 29:00 Kevin Kerr 29:02 Gabrielle Martin 29:13 Kevin Kerr 29:17 Kevin Kerr 29:30 Kevin Kerr 30:19 Kevin Kerr 30:32 Kevin Kerr 30:55 Kevin Kerr 31:06 Kevin Kerr 31:21 Kevin Kerr 31:35 David Hudgins 31:44 David Hudgins 32:04 David Hudgins 32:18 David Hudgins 32:39 Gabrielle Martin 32:50 David Hudgins 33:01 Kevin Kerr 33:20 Kevin Kerr 33:55 Kevin Kerr 34:25 David Hudgins 34:43 David Hudgins 35:01 Ben Charland 35:08 Ben Charland 35:24 Ben Charland 35:43 | |||
| 04 Dec 2023 | Ep. 8 - Dear Laila: Creating vulnerable intimacy | 00:12:51 | |
Basel Zaraa discusses his intimate, one-on-one storytelling practice. Dear Laila runs Jan 20th-Feb 3rd at PuSh Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Basel Zaraa about the installation Dear Laila. They talk about how this intimate installation uses objects to connect with patrons; how we use art to deal with personal and collective trauma; and how we can show big events as experienced by normal people. Co-presented by Boca del Lupo and Pandemic Theatre. Gabrielle and Basel ask the following questions and more:
About Basel Zaraa Basel Zaraa is a UK-based Palestinian artist whose work uses the senses to bring audiences closer to experiences of exile and the search for identity. His current project, Dear Laila, is an interactive installation that recreates his destroyed family home in Yarmouk Palestinian refugee camp in Damascus. His previous work includes ‘As Far As My Fingertips Take Me’, a collaboration with Tania El Khoury, which was awarded outstanding production at the Bessie Awards in 2019. His work has been shown at over 40 venues and festivals across five continents. Land Acknowledgement Basel joins the podcast from Birmingham, UK. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form and Gabrielle Martin, PuSh's director of programming. And today's episode highlights how political histories are told through individual stories. I'm speaking with Basel Zaraa, the artist behind Dear Laila, which will be presented at PuSh Festival January 20th to February 3rd, excluding the 22nd, 28th and 29th 2024. An intimate interactive installation experienced by one audience member at a time, Dear Laila shares the Palestinian experience of displacement and resistance through the story of one family, exploring how war and exile are experienced through the everyday, the domestic and the public space. Basel Zaraa is a UK based Palestinian artist whose work uses the senses to bring audiences closer to experiences of exile and the search for identity. I'm delighted to be able to share this insight into Basel's approach to weaving the personal and political. Here's my conversation with Basel.
Gabrielle [00:01:06] Hi Basel. It's really nice to be in conversation with you. I'm Gabrielle. I'm the director of programming and I'm speaking with Basel Zaraa, the creator behind Dear Laila. Hi, Basel.
Basel [00:01:17] Hello. Thank you Gabrielle.
Gabrielle [00:01:19] Yeah, and I just want to contextualize where I am. I'm on the unceded traditional and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh). So this is colonially known as Vancouver. And I'm absolutely privileged to be here as a settler on this land. And where are you right now, Basel?
Basel [00:01:40] I'm at my home in Birmingham, U.K. of the moment.
Gabrielle [00:01:44] And the the audience, our listeners, our audience can't see, but you have a beautiful olive green wall behind you that we were just admiring. So it's a little unfortunate that it's that we don't see the visuals. I want to jump right into understanding a little bit more about your practice and about this piece. And can you speak a little bit about how political histories are being told through individual stories and experiences in your work?
Basel [00:02:15] Sure. And just to give you a little bit about my background, I'm a Palestinian refugee who was born and grew up in Yarmouk refugee camp and Damascus in south Damascus in Syria. And I am the third generation who were born and grew up as a refugee outside Palestine. So Yarmouk camp is one of the biggest Palestinian refugee camp outside Palestine and one of 12 other refugee camp in Syria. And there is also other refugee camps for Palestinians in Lebanon and in Jordan and in West Bank and Gaza. So as Palestinian, our individual experiences, I think the political stories and this is not something that we have that we have chosen, but something that has been forced upon us by history. So if you ask a Palestinian about their life, their answer might take you back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 or to the Palestinian catastrophe or the Nakba in 1948. And by creating my new work year Dear Laila, I'm trying to I'm trying to to tell how this big historical events are experienced through the everyday life of ordinary people. And I'm trying to share the Palestinian history of war, occupation and exile in a way that my young daughter could understand. So I try to build or to recreate a miniature of my destroyed family home in Yarmouk camp. I built a model of this house and this house and a story of a family trying to find the meaning of their exile. A family like many families of our communities who are stuck and in a loop of losses and and keep repeating itself by down the generations.
Gabrielle [00:04:26] And how does Dear Laila relate to the work you've made previously and your artistic approach in general?
Basel [00:04:32] I think, Dear Laila, based on the theme of my previous work, I make artwork about my communities, experiences of war, occupation and exile. And it's a way of me to face and express and understand the trauma that we live with. And my previous work. As Far As My Fingertips Take Me or As Far As Isolation Goes, both in collaboration with other artist Tania El Khoury and both are 1 to 1 performance. And the performance is the experience between one audience member and me through a gallery wall. And I use sound and touch to tell a story of my sister and brother who made the journey to skip the war in Syria to Europe in 2015 and I think a year later continue that theme by going back to the beginning of the story and to tell the story of the Palestinian who are or the first exile of the Palestinians, the first displacement in 1948.
Gabrielle [00:05:54] You're storytelling in innovative forms. And I'm wondering if you can speak about the symbolic and concrete space of Dear Laila.
Basel [00:06:04] Dear Laila centered on a miniature model of my destroyed family home in Yarmouk camp, and with the three stories and represents the three generations who lived in the house. And the first floor was built by my grandparents when they first arrived to Syria from Palestine as a refugee and my family built the new stories as the family grow down the generations, the house or the whole Yarmouk camp represent the our community trying to find or to create a new home or a new life in their exile. And even so, we trying to create a new home, but it's still a temporary home for us because we it's like it's a refugee camp and we lived there as refugees for generations. And I feel by by losing this new home or this temporary home or the camp, it also felt like like a threat for our right to return to, Palestine because we were waiting for generations as a refugee, because we hoped that one day we will go back to Palestine. But by using this new home, we felt, yeah, it's that threat for that right to return. So I felt if I want to say something, I feel like the the house or Yarmouk Camp symbolizes in a way our right to return to Palestine.
Gabrielle [00:07:46] And how does solitude function dramaturgically in the piece? Because it's a piece for one audience to experience at a time. So in terms of the effect of the work compared to the collective audience experience that usually takes place in a in a work created for a theatre. Yeah. Why that choice for it to be for one person.
Basel [00:08:09] I decided that I think Dear Laila to be experienced by one audience member at a time is in order to try to get audience more closer to the story I'm telling. So I hope this personal approach can get or can make the audience member more connected to that experience by, by and by get by getting involved or interacting with the installation and the space. So, for example, at one moment I ask the audience to open one of the books and they find some photos inside. And this is the photo that we saved from our destroyed home in Yarmouk camp and is the only link that we still have that connect us to that place that we lived there for like three generations. And and I feel by touching these photos, I hope that the audience might get more connected to the story behind these photos. And I'm like, I'm trying to invite the audience to sit in Laila's room, Laila's my daughter, and to try and to imagine that they're hearing the story of a story of one of their parents. And and I hear what I want to say also, Like I'm trying to tell a story about like how big events sometimes are experienced by normal people, people like them. So, yeah, and at the end of the story sometimes, like, I ask them to take like a thought in order to remind them with my granny stories who used to sprinkle salt on our heads to keep us or to keep evil away from us and in this way I'm trying to invite them to take a bit of the story and carry it with them. So yeah, I feel like by touch and stuff, all this and then like I'm trying as much as I can to make it more personal with them.
Gabrielle [00:10:14] Yeah. And it works. It's, it's, it's brilliant. The, you know, the construction of it and the, the journey that the, the audience goes through. And, you know, congratulations. This work just won Audience award at the Zurcher Theatre Spectacle. That's pretty incredible. I think they have you know from 30 shows you know, this is really highlighted.
Basel [00:10:41] And I'm so happy to about that and I can yeah, I'm really glad to hear that as well. Thank you so much.
Gabrielle [00:10:47] You know, clearly it's it's not just, you know, the expertise and how you're working with your forms to to frame and deliver this experience, but also your generosity. There's an incredible generosity in in sharing a story that you would share with your daughter that we can all get to experience. So I'm just this is going to be such a special experience in this upcoming festival. And so we're glad to have it running for multiple days because it's one for one person at a time. So from January 20th to February 3rd at the Fishbowl on Granville Island. And we're just really looking forward to to having you here as well Basel.
Basel [00:11:35] Thank you. I'm really looking forward to it as well. And to come to Vancouver is like my first time I will be there. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to it, as well.
Ben [00:11:46] That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Basel Zaraa, the artist behind Dear Laila, which will be presented at the upcoming PuSh Festival. My name is Ben Charland and I'm one of the producers of this podcast alongside Tricia Knowles. PuSh Play is supported by our Community Outreach Coordinator, Julian Legere. Original Music from Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media at @PushFestival. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word. On the next PuSh Play:
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| 28 Dec 2023 | Ep. 14 - Deciphers: language and identity | 00:30:26 | |
Jean Abreu and Naishi Wang discuss how language shapes and reflects identity. See Deciphers at the 2024 PuSh Festival from Jan 24-26 at the Scotiabank Dance Centre. Co-Presented with New Works. Show Notes Gabrielle, Naishi and Jean dive into the development of this piece and how it was influenced by language and digital technology. They also discuss how their work tackles loneliness, the migrant experience, the transforming nature of human identity, and other questions including:
About Naishi Wang Based in culturally diverse Toronto, and born in Changchun, China mixed with Chinese, North Korean and Mongolian ancestry. Naishi Wang observes and studies the underlying motivations of the body’s movements and the emotions it conveys. Renowned for his exceptional improvisations, which he turns into incarnations of bodily meaning, Wang is also a practicing visual artist. His drawings, which take the form of dances on paper, echo his work in dance. Part of the MAI (Montréal, arts interculturels) program in February 2019 and also presented in Halifax and Hamburg, Germany. His solo Taking Breath demonstrated his interest in intimate forms of bodily communication, a subject he takes up again in the duet Face to Face which focused on our new modes of virtual communication and the factors that act in concert to convey our intentions in even the simplest exchanges. Naishi is currently collaborating with UK-based artist Jean Abreu entitled Deciphers and a trio named Eyes, Wide Open. He is an artist in residency at the Citadel, Harbourfront Centre and TO Live and has been awarded Les Respirations du FTA (2021), Small Scale Creation Fund from CanDance (2021) and Chalmers Arts Fellowship from Ontario Arts Council (2022). About Jean Abreu Born in Brazil, Jean Abreu moved to London in 1996 after receiving a scholarship to study at Trinity Laban Conservatoire for Music and Dance. Jean Abreu received the Jerwood Choreography Award in 2003 following the creation of his first choreography, Hibrido. Since then his work has toured throughout the UK, Europe, Brazil and China including performances for Dance Umbrella, Edinburgh Festival Fringe, Royal Opera House and Southbank Centre in London. Jean Abreu’s movement practice comes from his ongoing interest in utilizing the body as a powerful tool to articulate arresting emotional and complex ideas through dance. Creative & digital technology has consistently featured within and challenged Jean’s varied performance work. In 2009 he founded Jean Abreu Dance and has since collaborated with influential artists across multiple art forms including rock band 65daysofstatic for Inside (2010), choreographer Jorge Garcia for Parallel Memories (2011), visual artists Gilbert & George for Blood (2013) and Brazilian sculptor and visual artist Elisa Bracher for A Thread (2016). His work Solo for Two toured across the UK in 2018 with further performances in China and Portugal in 2019. Jean has taught extensively in the UK and abroad in renowned dance organizations and Universities including London Contemporary Dance School, London Studio Centre, Dance Base (Scotland), International Festival of Morelos (Mexico) Roger Williams University (USA) New York University (USA), Balance Arts Centre (China). He is currently a regular guest artist at Bath Spa University, Portsmouth University, University of Bath, Greenwich Dance and Beijing Dance Academy. Land Acknowledgement Jean joins the podcast from the east end of London, UK, where he acknowledges both the migrant peoples of the area and the original inhabitants. Naishi joins from Toronto, Ontario, which is the traditional territory of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples and is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 13 Nov 2023 | Ep. 2 - The Runner: Seeding compassion with human dilemmas | 00:30:17 | |
Christopher Morris discusses the humanizing power of narrative. The Runner runs Jan 24th-26th at PuSh Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Christopher Morris, artistic director of Human Cargo and writer of The Runner. Urgent, visceral and complex, The Runner invites us into a nuanced exploration of our shared humanity and the value of kindness. Co-presented with SFU Woodward’s Cultural Programs and Touchstone Theatre. Here are some of the topics that Gabrielle and Christopher approach:
About Human Cargo Human Cargo is a Toronto-based theatre company mandated to the creation, production and touring of new theatrical works. Founded in 2007 by artistic director Christopher Morris, Human Cargo creates innovative, theatrical experiences that provide audiences with a safe environment to engage in a thorough and provocative discussion of ideas. We collaborate with theatre artists and companies in Canada, and around the world, to create our work. We develop our plays over long periods, in the countries and communities the play is set in, and present these productions in Canada and the places they were developed. To date, Human Cargo has worked in Nunavut, Iceland, Greenland, Israel, Palestinian Territories, Republic of Georgia, CFB Petawawa, Montréal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, China and Central African Republic. We’ve presented our work in English, Inuktitut, Icelandic and Dari. Committed to removing the geographic/financial/cultural barriers between potential audiences and our work, we implement a touring/presentation model that reaches out to a new generation of viewing public. We believe this is the only way to engage 21st Century audiences in Toronto, Canada and the World. Land Acknowledgement Christopher joins from Tiohtià:ke, or Montreal, unceded Indigenous territory and a gathering place for many indigenous nations cared for by the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation, custodians of the lands and waters. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, PuSh's Director of Programming. And today's episode highlights the theatrical treatment of the extremes of the human condition. I'm speaking with Christopher Morris about his work, The Runner, which is being presented at PuSh Festival January 24th-26th 2024. The Runner takes us on a journey of self-evaluation, questioning the merit of actions, the nature of humans and the value of kindness in a divisive world. Christopher is an actor, playwright and director and the artistic director of the Toronto based theatre company Human Cargo. I am excited for you to hear a discussion that highlights his practice and extensive research. Here's my conversation with Christopher, who is joining me from Tiohtià:ke or Montreal, unceded Indigenous territory and a gathering place for many indigenous nations cared for by the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation, custodians of the lands and waters. I'm going to dive right into these questions because I'm very much curious to hear what you have to say about your work, your practice and The Runner. My first question to you is, you know, you create theatre that explores the extremes of the human condition. And what do you find to be key in the treatment of experiences that are potentially traumatic? So how do you avoid sensationalism or exploitation of these extreme situations? Christopher [00:01:30] I think the first thing and it's this is always a a tricky thing to navigate. I feel like a lot of my work goes out into corners of the world or communities that I'm not a part of. It's not what I've been brought up in. So I always find it's an interesting balance to trust the impulses that I have. The initial impulse for an idea for a project. One path could be: I doubt all the impulses because they're wrong or I don't belong to even consider a thought like that or an impulse like that. But on the other hand, you can't just have freewheeling impulses and do whatever you want. So I feel that the first step is that I do my best to trust just as a pure artistic person. Trust what interests me artistically about something or the, the potential of what an artistic impulse would bring. I trust that if something excites me, I feel it, it's an interesting thing to pursue. And then I feel like the next step is to constantly from the very beginning and throughout all of the process, very harshly examine and skewer, tear apart, look under every rock; why I had that kind of impulse, why I'm moving towards something. Because obviously, I've been brought up a certain way, just naturally the way I've been brought up in Markham, Ontario, going to Queen's University and living in Toronto and being a white man. That that I cannot deny what that is and it can have potentially negative influences in the way I go about the world that I'm completely unaware of. And I'm aware that that can colour impulses like this. So it's these incremental steps of like trusting it and then to thoroughly examine why I want to explore something like that, why and to find the potential negative things and maybe and why I want to explore something, the biases I have or and also to I think I think like this all the way through. From the second I get an idea for something till after we've premiered it and we're about to bring it to the PuSh festival. It's a constant examination and evaluation of why we're doing this, what the point of this is. And equally, I always approach these projects thinking that at any moment we can kill it. We're not bound to do it or to complete it. It is a long, ongoing pursuit and we may hit times where we feel that we've arrived at a place or gone down a path that it's not right or, you know, artistically, but also ethically or morally or... And I always have that in the back of the mind that we can kill it. And that kind of enables me to, without pressure, go through it properly and and always be aware. So those are kind of like the ethical overalll things that that I think about as I'm working through when it gets to content. I want to do plays that are about human beings and about human relations and how complicated it is to be a human and how to live in the world. I kind of I'm not really interested in theatre that's intellectual debating and that it's more of a visceral, emotional, living experience that that's kind of where where my my taste in theatre is. I love it. I love that. So with that in mind. When we arrive at, let's say, a play like The Runner. It's set in Israel. It's about a group of religious volunteers that collect the remains of Jews who are killed, who meet an early death, be it killed or a car accident or however it happens. And they collect the remains to give them to the family for burial. So. What, what is always interesting on stage to me in theatre is and what influenced the research I did on it when I was talking to guys who did this work and like is what I would ask them, "when is it difficult for you" or "when is there when is there a contradiction for you in your work? Like, where's the problem for you to do this work? What's the problem? What's the problem?" And that that's what I was always interested in. And then it becomes about a human problem, a singular solo, one person dilemma that, that belongs to them and who they are. And if if that's it, if another person was put into that situation, they would have a different approach to it. It may not be a dilemma. So it's very specific singular dilemmas that, that people have where where it's a dilemma, a human dilemma. And that to me is where I find interesting writing. When I'm writing a character, it's these dilemmas that are that are great material for drama, live, live drama. And when it gets that singular, it it helps to push aside any sensationalist tendencies that one would put on stage because it doesn't actually serve the human singular dilemma. It's, it doesn't help. Because I always remember to where I would I, you know, talk to these men. They'd tell me these extraordinary stories, like unbelievable crazy situations that they found themselves in, like out of this world. And I'd I'd hear it, but I'd go that that might be good for 8 minutes on stage. But then what? Like it doesn't do anything. It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't serve their human dilemma. Not unless the extraordinary story they were talking about was about the situation that caused them the problem. Then it's worth it. Then, then it to me it deserves real estate in my play. Otherwise, it's just an interesting story. It's nonsense. It's just... it's it's phenomenal, but it can't be used. There's no use to it. That that helps to kind of keep,m keep it from things being sensationalised because it doesn't it doesn't serve. It doesn't serve. But even then, if you get a singular story that that is serving the dilemma of the character and, and it is solely their perspective and their their context. And I feel for me as a writer, I need to step back and understand what it means to present that context and really think about who am I presenting this, this world view, their singular worldview to and why and how and what am I putting around it, and am I am I satisfied personally with hearing their solo singular view? Is is that good enough for what actually, I want to also say about the situation that they're in, and I find a lot of the times it's not, it's not enough for me because I'm kind of in the middle going, "I don't want my play to be a vehicle for solely to serve their singular worldview." That's, that's not what I'm... I'm not writing it for them. But I always take what is what I hear, what is being written and I make sure that I present it clearly, honestly, with as much dignity and compassion as possible. But also, I feel it's important for me as a writer and a human being to bring my point of view and feelings to the table. And then again, it gets to that point where it's like, "well, who are you to to be able to be putting your point of view forward? Why should your point of view be putting forward?" And it's a constant, it's a constant battle and debate. And when things arrive at the point when it's going to be getting a state, a rehearsal ready draft of a script, where you are actually going to be like really doing this, throughout all the process of creating, but even then, even especially then, I always make sure I have people that who are related to the project, who are outside of the artistic work, who are from the community or other views that I always share the work with to go "ehh... what do you think? Is this..." Like I identify problems that I think could be problematic or I'm uncertain about, and I always get other other views in it. Because equally as an artist, when you're kind of pushing down, you're going down that path to push towards opening, you can just say, okay, enough, I just want to like finish the script and let's go. And that that's also a dangerous period where you just have to always step back, get different views, you know, And it's important who the who they are, who those people are. But yeah, it's a constant. It's a constant, I don't know, awareness and process and unearthing and examination over time. Gabrielle [00:12:18] Clearly you've thought about this. Clearly, you're a professional of many years thinking about this. And I'm hearing that there's a real criticality, you know, within your own process thinking about that, even though you're a writer, you're also a dramaturg and thinking about how this work will land and ties into a question I was going to ask in a bit, which is about the role that your theatre, theatre serves in society. But I'm also hearing the necessity of having complex and specific dilemmas, and I want to know a bit more about the research because I know that writing the Runner involved years of indepth research with Z.A.K.A members in Israel over several years. How did the concept evolve over time and as a result, when you went in with an idea about what this, what The Runner would be and what we're going to see at PuSh, is there a big difference or has it...? Yeah, can you talk about that? Christopher [00:13:23] Originally I first heard about Z.A.K.A when I was in high school. I heard a news report on CBC about these guys picking up body parts after a bombing in Jerusalem. And it was just so extraordinary. And I thought, "wow", it always stuck with me. And I thought as I got older, I thought, "wow, I wonder if this would be a play or..." But then it seems so obscure. What is the play? What the hell would a play be about this? Like it? So when I initially said, okay, I'm going to I'm going to go for this, I'm going to do this, I had an initial concept of, okay, there would be some kind of event that occurs, negative event maybe. And I thought, I'll go to Israel, I'll meet people, maybe something will occur while I'm there because I went for like five weeks or six weeks. And if that's the case, and I'm already connected with the Z.A.K.A volunteers, I could maybe explore the event that occurs and research and tell the story of how everyone got to that moment and their back stories and kind of bring it to this moment and see what brought them all together at that moment. That was my initial kind of instinct from that from my first trip, it became very clear that it was a very strange pursuit because A.) It's insulting to think that, I'm going to go there and think something bad is going to happen. That's that's not cool to think that about. It's just not cool. It's not cool. And then also the circumstances in which I thought I would find myself in a situation, I just I found it just a very odd frame of thinking for this, which rapidly went away the second I was there, because the situation was much different, and I realised that it's just it's not, it's not good. But what it did do was it got me there and it made me go. And then I was able to quickly let go of it, which was amazing. But what I found though is there were like threads that that continued throughout that that influenced the writing. So part of me thought I don't just want to focus on the Israeli perspective. I thought it would be interesting to see what life is like in the occupied territories. I thought it'd be good to kind of see what that is all about. So I went in being very open to everything and just wanting to understand and let it all just come in and then to let it see where it will go. So over a bunch of time, a few years and after a few visits that the the premise for the, the play there was going to be a bunch of characters in it. There was you know, it was all it was going to be in reality, like in a very real realistic state. And I had written drafts like that, and they all felt horrible. Like they they just they weren't good. They weren't it wasn't good writing. So I went back because I always had an instinct that it would be highly theatrical in some way. Sometimes I think very visually when when I get inspirations to write, like I think I imagine there's all these... if something exploded and it's all hanging in the air around someone and he's in it and it's all suspended or something. So my mind kept going to that kind of an impulse. And I thought, well, a single person and a theatrical expression of it. And I brought Daniel Brooks or asked and he agreed to work on the on the piece years ago. And he was with me working on it for about four years or so until we opened. And he, I brought him to Israel at one point about a year before we premiered it, just to kind of be there with him and get into the world with him and share the worlds that I was getting into with him. And he gave me this really great advice. He always kind of knew how to, to ask this very random question that unlocks things. And I remember he said one day in Israel, "just go. Go off and write. Write ten pages of free flow of consciousness. Like, just whatever comes. It can be anything. A poem, however, comes out. There's no judgement. Just let a free flowing kind of thing occur. Just write ten pages." And he's like, "it never has to go in the script or go on stage. It's, it's exercise." And from that, it it created the form of what this play now this singular man in the state of existence that that that he's trying he doesn't know what state he's in, what's going on around him. And it was from that and it it kind of touched deeply into these initial instincts of of it being theatrical and in a state of of unrest that can't be defined. And so it's sometimes there is a weird loop where it started with these initial instincts went all the way through all these different variations and then kind of back again. But what that did as well was equally that the container for the play allowed a more rigorous discussion and pursuit of ideas that at the core of of the play that that I think and having a one person format allowed a more richer discussion of of the the dilemmas that that that were with the character. So yeah it took many trips there it took a lot of throwing things out. I'm always asking advice from different people that I know in organisations. I'm always I it's important for me to hear views that I don't agree with normally or I wouldn't agree with, or it's necessary to hear them out, to contemplate it and just examine it thoroughly. And I feel like all the trips there, the people I'm meeting and then this, this theatrical framework allowed it to kind of become... in the form that it that it's in now. Gabrielle [00:20:18] Your work examines what happens to us when we're pushed toward spiritual, moral and emotional limits. Is it also infused with an underlying optimism or cynicism about humanity? Have you become more optimistic or sceptical about human nature as a result of your project's research? Christopher [00:20:35] The longer I live on the earth, the more it feels like there is no answer to anything. There's, there's no... Nothing's defined. Nothing. Nothing's right. Nothing's wrong. It's just. I think that's a that's... for me that that would be a pursuit of folly there. It does not exist in the world. I feel that's where I'm arriving at more that the world is just complicated and sometimes we do really bad things and the greatest people can do bad things, and sometimes the worst people can do the best things. And. It's just complicated. I feel that more and more, and I think there are structures that exist in the world, for example, wealthy countries, I think we've, we've developed a structure that allows us to have everything we have at the detriment and on the backs of the less wealthier countries in the world and the less... and we we thrive in that and I thrive in it. And I can be aware of it and know it's wrong and at the same time not give up anything or just continue to exist in it. I find these things are, these types of truths and known realities are are just more aware. I'm more aware of them now and the contradictions of them. But yeah, I think there are there are structures set up that are always going to be a problem, and I don't think they're going to go away. But I equally believe that the pursuit to exist against them and to pursue a life against it has value. Even though it may not take down, take it down. The pursuit is meaningful. It is the pursuit that has meaning. Just two weeks ago or last week, I was in Israel again and a colleague there brought me to the protests that are happening, the anti-judicial protests. You know, 120,000 people were out that day. They've been protesting every week against the government's plan to help that the government is trying to erode the democratic state that's there. And for like I can't remember how many weeks now I think it's 35 weeks, they've been protesting in large numbers on the streets. One may look and go, well, are you going to stop the government from from doing that? Because the government is in charge. They're going to do what they want to do. You can't stop it. You can't stop it. Literally. But. There's value to the pursuit. There's value. And maybe I don't live there. I don't know what the end goal will be, and nor will I say what the end the best end goal should be. I have no idea. But I recognise. That there is meaning in the in the pursuit. And maybe that is the value that that is the value is the act of the pursuit, because it builds something and it will build on it. It'll, it'll build. But yeah, I kind of exist in these kinds of places. More and more I'm am, but I'm not necessarily pessimistic about human human nature. I feel if I think of the bad stuff that we do as people, I just feel I'm more sobered by it. I'm not like, depressed, just more sobered. But what I get more, more enjoyment from, enjoyment is like the the the extraordinary things that people do to to pursue a better way of life. I, I feel I'm drawn more to that and I'm, I'm, I get more out of I react more to that; the the, greatness that the extraordinary things that we as humans do when we are in these situations that are really hard, I believe they can engender people to do the most extraordinary things. And it's it's, that's exciting to me and it's exciting about life. Gabrielle [00:25:20] Yeah, I definitely appreciate what you're talking about in terms of the complexity of these situations. What could be moral dilemmas. I think I appreciate the complexity that you explore in The Runner, and I did have this question What is the role your theatre serves in society? And what I'm hearing is it's not necessarily didactic, it's not demonstrating or offering a moral compass, but perhaps inspiring the pursuit of a of a more engaged, critical existence. Or...? I am looking for you to finish. Christopher [00:25:59] Also, I would say it's the beginning of a discussion that that that's how it... that that's what I like about these plays when they when, when I don't screw them up, when when it's... I never want to present an answer or a solution. It doesn't mean I'm I'm I'm backing out. I'm backing away from presenting an answer. On the contrary, I don't believe there should be... what the hell answer would I have to give. Me? That, that's not my job. And because A) there is no answer, there is no writer, I can't give an answer to anything. It's impossible, no matter what. But what I can do is thoroughly, emotionally, critically, without fear and no bullshit, Examine something from a pure humanistic point of view and... lay it all out, and offer that as a... As an offer. It's an offer for discussion. It's,that that's all it can be. Yeah, I'm really. Yeah. Gabrielle [00:27:10] That's The Runner, an offer for discussion and more. Yeah. Christopher [00:27:18] Equally as well, I feel theatre is really beautiful and a special thing in the sense when to me, when it is theatrical. What is theatrical? Something that is above above our normal everyday existence and way of communicating. That is that, it's lifted. It's a heightened kind of thing. I feel theatre soars when it's like that, when when it's when it can only exist on stage. It could only exist on stage that a script and the way it's directed and performed could only be on stage as theatre. To me, that's really exciting. I want to create theatre that does that. Yeah, I think that that's that's what else I would, I would say with our company that we're always trying to push to, to achieve that, that these performances exist in a heightened theatrical scenario. So we offer the audience theatre, you know, not something that would probably be better done on TV and a TV show with the dialogue and you know, we could get close and but that's just theatre. It's like it's yeah, that's, I believe strongly about doing that, that I feel like that's my, that's what I like. And I feel that that's my goal as a theatre maker to do that. That's what I offer. Gabrielle [00:28:46] Thank you so much, Christopher. Christopher [00:28:49] You're welcome. Gabrielle [00:28:50] Wer're still talking. But we have to stop. But we are, we're really thrilled to be presenting The RUnner with Touchstone Theatre and SFU Cultural Programs January 24th-26th this upcoming PuSh. I'm so thrilled. Thanks so much, Christopher. Christopher [00:29:08] You're very welcome. Thank you. Gabrielle [00:29:12] Push Play is produced by Ben Charland and Tricia Knowles and supported by our incredible community outreach coordinator Julian Legere. New episodes with Gabrielle Martin are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, please visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @PuShFestival. | |||
| 12 Nov 2024 | Ep. 37 - A New Aesthetic of Participation (2024) | 00:27:56 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Patrick Blenkarn and Milton Lim, co-directors of asses.masses. Show Notes Gabrielle, Patrick and Milton discuss:
About Patrick Blenkarn Patrick Blenkarn is an artist working at the intersection of performance, game design, and visual art. His research-based practice revolves around the themes of language, labour, and economy, with projects ranging in form from video games and card games to stage plays and books. His work and collaborations have been featured in performance festivals, galleries, museums, and film festivals, including Festival TransAmériques (Montréal), PuSh International Performing Arts Festival (Vancouver), Hebbel am Ufer (Berlin), Festival Internacional de Buenos Aires, the Humboldt Forum (Berlin), Festival of Live Digital Art (Kingston), STAGES Festival (Halifax), Banff Centre for the Arts, Risk/Reward (Portland), SummerWorks (Toronto), rEvolver (Vancouver), RISER Projects (Toronto), and the Festival of Recorded Movement (Vancouver). In 2020, he was nominated for Best Projection Design at Toronto’s Dora Awards. In 2022, his work with Milton Lim, asses.masses, received a National Creation Fund investment from the National Arts Centre of Canada. Patrick has frequently been an artist in residence at galleries and theatres around the world, including USC Games (Los Angeles), The Arctic Circle (Svalbard), the Spitsbergen Artist Center (Svalbard), GlogauAIR (Berlin), Fonderie Darling (Montreal), Malaspina Printmakers (Vancouver), Skaftfell Center for Visual Art (Iceland), VIVO Media Arts (Vancouver), and The Theatre Centre (Toronto). Patrick is also the co-founder of and a key archivist for videocan, Canada’s video archive of performance documentation. He has a degree in philosophy, theatre, and film from the University of King's College and an MFA from Simon Fraser University. His writings on the politics of theatre have been published in Performance Matters, Theatre Research in Canada, GUTS, SpiderWebShow, and Canadian Theatre Review. He is based out of Vancouver and Los Angeles. About Milton Lim Milton Lim (he/him) is a digital media artist, game designer, and performance creator based in Vancouver, Canada: the traditional, unceded, and occupied territories of the Coast Salish peoples of the xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Nations. His research-based practice entwines publicly available data, interactive digital media, and gameful performance to create speculative visions and candid articulations of social capital. This line of inquiry aims to reconsider our repertoires of knowledge aggregation and political intervention in the contemporary context of big data and algorithmic culture. Often cheeky and audience/participant driven, his work challenges standard performance traditions including duration, linearity, and repeatability. Milton holds a BFA (Hons.) in theatre performance and psychology from Simon Fraser University. He has created works for and performed in various international festivals and venues including PuSh International Performing Arts Festival (Vancouver), CanAsian Dance Festival (Toronto), Festival TransAmériques (Montréal), Carrefour international de théâtre festival (Quebec City), IMPACT Festival (Kitchener), Seattle International Dance Festival, Risk/Reward Festival (Portland), Festival Internacional de Teatro Universitario / FITU at Teatro UNAM (Mexico City), Festival Internacional de Buenos Aires, Mayfest (Bristol), artsdepot (London), Battersea Arts Centre (London), New Theatre Royal (Portsmouth), Strike a Light Festival (Gloucester), Teatre Lliure (Barcelona), Inteatro (Ancona), Hong Kong Arts Festival, soft/WALL/studs (Singapore), and Darwin Festival. Performance credits include The Arts Club’s The Great Leap, Gateway Theatre’s King of the Yees at Canada's National Arts Centre, and Theatre Conspiracy’s award-winning immersive show: Foreign Radical at CanadaHub (Edinburgh Fringe). Milton's media artworks have been presented at the Vancouver Art Gallery, San Francisco State University, F-O-R-M, VIVO Media Arts Centre, and The New Gallery. In 2016, he was awarded the Ray Michal Prize for Outstanding Body of Work at the Jessie Richardson Theatre Awards. He is a co-artistic director of Hong Kong Exile, an artistic associate with Theatre Conspiracy, a co-founder and key archivist with the videocan national video archive of performing arts documentation, a recent artistic-leader-in-residence with the National Theatre School (Canada), one of the co-creators behind culturecapital: the performing arts economy trading card game, and one of the co-creators of asses.masses: the video game. In 2022, his work on asses.masses received the prestigious National Creation Fund from the National Arts Centre of Canada and it is now touring internationally in 5+ languages. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded in what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Gabrielle Martin 00:43 Gabrielle Martin 00:56 Patrick Blenkarn 00:58 Gabrielle Martin 01:00 Gabrielle Martin 01:16 Gabrielle Martin 01:34 Milton Lim 01:48 Milton Lim 02:05 Milton Lim 02:25 Milton Lim 02:39 Milton Lim 02:54 Milton Lim 03:10 Patrick Blenkarn 03:14 Milton Lim 03:15 Gabrielle Martin 03:16 Milton Lim 03:22 Milton Lim 03:47 Gabrielle Martin 03:59 Milton Lim 04:05 Milton Lim 04:20 Milton Lim 04:40 Gabrielle Martin 04:41 Patrick Blenkarn 04:55 Patrick Blenkarn 05:20 Patrick Blenkarn 05:34 Patrick Blenkarn 05:56 Patrick Blenkarn 06:06 Milton Lim 06:23 Patrick Blenkarn 06:34 Patrick Blenkarn 06:50 Patrick Blenkarn 07:01 Gabrielle Martin 07:08 Patrick Blenkarn 07:10 Patrick Blenkarn 07:25 Patrick Blenkarn 07:37 Patrick Blenkarn 07:49 Milton Lim 08:15 Milton Lim 08:28 Patrick Blenkarn 08:32 Patrick Blenkarn 08:52 Gabrielle Martin 09:06 Patrick Blenkarn 09:21 Milton Lim 09:34 Patrick Blenkarn 09:44 Patrick Blenkarn 10:02 Gabrielle Martin 10:05 Patrick Blenkarn 10:18 Patrick Blenkarn 10:33 Patrick Blenkarn 10:46 Milton Lim 11:03 Milton Lim 11:21 Patrick Blenkarn 11:36 Patrick Blenkarn 11:58 Patrick Blenkarn 12:24 Milton Lim 12:39 Gabrielle Martin 12:43 Patrick Blenkarn 13:04 Patrick Blenkarn 13:25 Milton Lim 13:41 Milton Lim 13:57 Gabrielle Martin 14:03 Milton Lim 14:06 Gabrielle Martin 14:06 Milton Lim 14:09 Patrick Blenkarn 14:13 Patrick Blenkarn 14:42 Milton Lim 14:56 Patrick Blenkarn 15:00 Gabrielle Martin 15:05 Gabrielle Martin 15:32 Milton Lim 15:33 Patrick Blenkarn 16:04 Milton Lim 16:08 Milton Lim 16:19 Milton Lim 16:42 Patrick Blenkarn 16:54 Patrick Blenkarn 17:12 Patrick Blenkarn 17:38 Patrick Blenkarn 18:00 Patrick Blenkarn 18:21 Patrick Blenkarn 18:38 Patrick Blenkarn 18:58 Patrick Blenkarn 19:14 Milton Lim 19:23 Patrick Blenkarn 19:39 Patrick Blenkarn 19:51 Patrick Blenkarn 20:12 Milton Lim 20:24 Milton Lim 20:34 Gabrielle Martin 20:49 Gabrielle Martin 21:14 Patrick Blenkarn 21:16 Patrick Blenkarn 21:30 Patrick Blenkarn 21:46 Milton Lim 22:16 Milton Lim 22:38 Milton Lim 22:56 Milton Lim 23:19 Gabrielle Martin 23:28 Patrick Blenkarn 23:38 Patrick Blenkarn 23:53 Gabrielle Martin 23:59 Patrick Blenkarn 24:01 Gabrielle Martin 24:03 Patrick Blenkarn 24:07 Patrick Blenkarn 24:26 Patrick Blenkarn 24:45 Milton Lim 24:53 Milton Lim 25:12 Patrick Blenkarn 25:19 Patrick Blenkarn 25:34 Patrick Blenkarn 25:47 Patrick Blenkarn 26:06 Gabrielle Martin 26:21 Gabrielle Martin 26:37 Milton Lim 26:45 Tricia Knowles 26:51 Tricia Knowles 27:12 | |||
| 16 Dec 2024 | Ep. 46 - Building from the Back Door (BOGOTÁ) | 00:33:23 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Andrea Peña, whose work, BOGOTÁ, will be presented at the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. You can catch her show on January 31 and February 1 at the Vancouver Playhouse, in association with New Works. Show Notes Gabrielle and Andrea discuss:
About Andrea Peña and Artists Andrea Peña and Artists (AP&A) a millennial company that believes in the possibilities of crafting new imaginaries in choreographic and performing arts. Returning, individually and collectively, to our essence as humans. As an upcoming generation of artists, we feel we have the responsibility to reflect on the values that shape us, our decisions, reflections, work, to focus beyond our actions and return to our essence. AP&A merges the universes of choreography and design; a multidisciplinary company that creates performative universes that challenge notions of a sensible humanity through political yet abstract creations which transform conceptual research into theatrical larger ensemble installations. The foundations of Peña’s work is to create rich choreographic systems that reveal the point of view of the performers. Negotiations can take the form of frames, concepts, athletic constraints, to reveal the individual and collective point of view, as much as the choreographers. As a bi-cultural artist, our works bring forward interwoven Latin American philosophies and inclusive values to carve space for the futuring of finding unity through our complexity and diversity, thus perpetually encouraging collisions between heterogeneous fields, disciplines and individuals. We aim to democratize the choreographic process as public sources for experimentation and collective knowledge creation. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Andrea joins the conversation from Pittsburgh, ancestral lands of the Seneca in Pittsburgh and Sharpsburg, Adena culture, Hopewell culture, and Monongahela peoples who were later joined by refugees of other tribes (including the Delaware, Shawnee, Mingo, and Haudenosaunee tribes, who were all forced off their original land and displaced by European colonists. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, director of programming at the Push Festival, and today's episode highlights grotesque liberation, death and resurrection, bodies of labor, and more.
00:21 I'm speaking with Andrea Pena, choreographer of Bogota, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 31st and February 1st, 2025. Visceral and transgressive Bogota constructs a brutalist landscape from choreography inspired by Colombia's political and spiritual heritage.
00:40 This raw physical experience of mutation and resurrection explores embodied origins, inherited mythologies and mortality, honing the rebellion of deviant bodies and paying tribute to resilience within the post-colonial era.
00:56 Interested in the depth of human individuality that breaches from a personal disposition as a bi-cultural artist, Pena's approach is known for its difficult choreography as a highly intricate, vulnerable, and somatic raw physicality that engages in deep encounters between the physical body and a highly conceptual research approach.
01:16 With a background in industrial design, her work borrows from visual art practices and spatial qualities of creative making, questioning the body as a material existing in relationship to space and time.
01:28 Here is my conversation with Andrea. There is a JGB beside me, but I am actually on indigenous territories. I'm on the unceded traditional and ancestral territory of the Coast Salish peoples, so the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh.
01:45 I am a settler, and I've been, you know, a part of the being a settler is a responsibility to learning and engaging with learning about indigeneity and engaging with contemporary indigenous. issues affecting Indigenous people today.
02:03 And one way that I've been doing that is through the Yellowhead Institute, which you'll hear me plug in quite a bit. And so I'm working through their red paper land back course, which is really encouraging settler folks to reflect on what it means to be living in accordance with Indigenous law and to enact land back by supporting front lines.
02:24 And one thing that really stood out in the lesson, one of the recent lessons from this course is they just put it so clearly that if we really want land back but do nothing about it, we are upholding the liberal fantasy, a belief that you can change the world by simply feeling a certain way.
02:44 And I just think that's really to the point. Andrea, where are you joining the conversation from today? Hello. So I'm actually currently in Pittsburgh. So I'm a bit in transit, stepping out of Montreal for a few days.
02:58 I'm here on the ancestral lands of the people of Adena, Hopewell, Morengohala, and Seneca people here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S. Thank you for that. And usually you're in Giorgia, Montreal. Giorgia, Giorgia, Giorgia, Montreal.
03:20 And so you describe AP&A or Andrea Pena and artists as a millennial company. What does that infer for you? Yeah, I think for me it was really important to situate, you know, AP&A in terms of the fact that it is millennial.
03:39 I mean, you know, I'm in my 30s. A lot of the artists that we work with are also within the same age range. And I think there's something that is social, politically cultural specific to our generation and to the sort of desire or lens or perspective.
03:55 And so I really wanted to kind of, you know, be frontal about that and kind of situate ourselves there. I think in the word millennial or in how I connect to the word, I think I, you know, see myself as a sort of new generation of artists, a new generation of thinkers, of creators, where for me it's really not just about the work, but the how.
04:17 So not just what are we creating? What is the work about? What is the art about? But like how is it being made? I think for me, you know, the choreographic practice is something that really requires a lot of reconsideration and deconstruction.
04:31 And I would go as far as saying like decolonializing the practice itself. I think it's a practice that has certain hierarchies embedded to it, certain ways of seeing. And I and what we're trying to do with APNA is sort of take the responsibility to reflect on what does it mean to do choreography today?
04:50 What does it mean to gather people, to lead people, to build these things? shows? What do the shows talk about? How do they talk about them? What is at stake inside of a work? And then, more importantly, like, how do these people come together in community to build these pieces?
05:08 I think what we're trying or what I've been trying to do with an AP&A and, you know, first it started as something utopic and a goal and little by little, it's reframed itself. But it was really important for me to kind of approach choreographic works from a different lens.
05:24 I mean, I used to be a professional dancer and I think it was important to both bring Bring my own values as somebody who's Latin American Colombian who has indigenous Latin American Backgrounds to bring some of those values into not just how we make her work, but what is a company today?
05:43 so everything from bylaws internal communication things that try to kind of make us reframe and rethink what does Company and leadership mean as well Obviously these things are not always easy because having a company There are certain structures framework systems that you operate under But I think for me that millennial aspect is sort of giving space for those internal tensions to exist and also to reflect on You know,
06:12 what is the future of choreography from today forward? What do we want to build as a community? what do we want to build as a practice for each other for Publix and Yeah, and and kind of what that looks like so it's it's really an amalgamation of a lot of those questions and reflections I think that are simply situated in that word Millennial is like it's today meaning we're looking at the past the history of Choreography in the past the history of companies in the past and trying to reimagine like what do we want this to look like?
06:43 In the future. Yeah, I get it. So excited hearing you speak about this and I remember in one of our first conversations Almost exactly a year ago at par cordonce in Montreal we we thought we had a conversation and you spoke a bit about this as well like how you're How your company is working and how you're thinking about?
06:59 democratizing the choreographic process and as you referenced you've danced with ballet BC and other Other high caliber technical Great. Thank you. Yes Company is with you know, like a more classic hierarchical environment It's quite, you know common as you're mentioning that These companies operate in a certain way.
07:27 So I would love to just hear a little bit more about democratizing the choreographic process like, how does that differ from the norm? And what is the impact on the work itself? So maybe like, what does that look like in the studio and a rehearsal process?
07:41 And is that translated into the finished work? Yeah, I mean, I think for us that kind of, it's a bit twofold. The notion of democratizing is kind of both internally for us as a team, but also externally in terms of community and our public.
07:58 For me, my kind of first goal is how do I de-center the choreographic role? There's a really amazing book that I forget her name. She's a Spanish author and she talked about everything that is the sort of tension between the periphery and the center.
08:14 So, embodiments of the peripheries versus embodiments of the center and the sort of boundaries that lie between the periphery and the center. And I think that's just always something that's kind of, you know, you know, as someone who's immigrated Latin American in Canada, it's tensions that I've always had.
08:31 And so, yeah, I think I became really curious about how do I de-center the choreographic role? I think the choreographer or choreography is sort of this like role that is often put on a pedestal as something that is mysterious and amazing.
08:47 It's like, no choreography is just a lot of trial and error and a lot of failure. And you happened to choose some ideas that you feel like works in community with your people and you put a show, you know?
08:57 But it's often, very often do we talk about the fact that it's just trial and error and that it's not that mystic, you know, or like genius. And so, yeah, I kind of was fascinated to like, how do we de-center that role?
09:12 And, you know, we're not a collective. AP&A is not a collective. There's companies that work as in a collective infrastructure. For us, we're not a collective, but I see myself sort of as like a facilitator, team leader.
09:26 For sure, I'm proposing a project or a concept or a research idea that I'm bringing to the table of my collaborators. But what we've realized that we've been doing kind of little by little through time, I would say is to de-center the choreographic process.
09:43 One of the things we've done is sort of democratize the dramaturgical practice. I've been working with the same sort of group of artists, both from designers to performers for many, many, many years.
09:56 And together, we've sort of been building these sort of hybrid practices that allow all of us to hold a dramaturgical key in what we do, meaning that it gives us like codes, information, angles to kind of each one of us, them, also to bring the sort of own agency to the work, questions, point of views, perspective.
10:20 A lot of the times, the dramaturgy, which is the sort of internal thread or like overstating. structuring intelligence or network of information of a piece is really between the choreographer and the dramaturge.
10:32 And we've sort of tried to sort of evenly, not evenly, but like spread that reflection across the team, meaning that we really prioritise like, you know, even if sometimes we're a team of 25 people, hour and a half conversations after rehearsal to make sure that this the sort of conceptual frameworks, ideas, political standings, questions, reflections are shared across everybody and that those conversations are,
10:57 yeah, like approached from a very collective point of view, even with our designers as well. So I think it allows, I call it like a sort of ecosystem. When we create works, it allows the sort of ecosystem to create a work together, specifically building Bogota.
11:16 I remember saying to the team, I really want to build a piece from the back door. And everyone's like, what the hell does that mean? I was like, I don't know. Just metaphorically, it feels right. Like, how do we build a piece from the back door?
11:28 How do we build a piece from the bottom up? What does that mean? What does that look like? And through two years of research, what we did was we realized that together we were sort of building tools, systems, language, putting words onto things we've done for years to help us understand the sort of tools that we've been co-building together.
11:49 And so in order to do that, you know, we, I mean, specifically for Bogota, we had about two years of research before we actually started Bogota or knew that that's what we were doing. It was about two years, year and a half of trying to research practices and methods that would allow us to be all equipped with tools that gave the team agency and the ability for everybody to kind of bring in their point of view.
12:17 I don't know if you heard me what I was saying about trying to create a piece from the back door, from the bottom up. And so it was how do we, what are those tools? What are those practices? What are those methods in order for us to build a piece from the back door or from the bottom up?
12:33 And, you know, intrinsically, some of that stuff may have looked like, you know, having like prioritizing time for conversation. That's something we do a lot, is that the dancers and the artists, performers are very much in tune in line with everything that's happening in the production side from conceptual choices, artistic choices, materials choices.
12:53 There's a lot of conversations that we have as a team where we share, you know, what is at stake in the work? What are the sort of social political questions of the work? How do people feel? I think for myself as well, I realized that if for me to build a work and be this facilitator as a team leader, I also had to get really comfortable with being vulnerable.
13:16 And I think that sometimes the choreographic role were expected to be the with the answers and it's often that I come to my team and I'm like guys I feel really overwhelmed we're making work about the Anthropocene what does that mean who are we to make a work about the Anthropocene like and to share those vulnerabilities um those discomforts those insecurities places where I don't have answers I have no idea so that together we can find answers and together we can build uh doesn't have to be a homogenous point of view but build a common language and a common understanding to have a direction together that holds a space for multiple points of view so yeah we've been building different practices um we work a lot on trying to use language it's strange but like we work a lot with Post-its a lot with like not just about the creation itself but trying to name how we work so that we're all aware of what are the tools we've been developing together can we put language on those tools so that um Yeah,
14:20 people can feel empowered, like here's this random tool that we're using, but this tool means this to me, even if that means something else. But we have a common understanding. So trying to build ways that we can share, I think, choice making.
14:33 Can you give an example of a tool? For example, I think one thing that will help make sense of that is so I finished my master's last year. It's a master's in design and it's a master's that looks at how the choreographic practice is actually situated within the everyday built environment.
14:53 So like for me, a chair, a handle, a car, anything that is the built environment is the sort of choreographic proposition that our body has to interact with. And I realize that a lot of the times our bodies are interacting with the built environment, but they're not necessarily in a negotiation.
15:11 And so a lot of my work, choreographically, are these tools are about putting systems of negotiation in place, which for me means the position for two people, two things, two entities to propose their own point of view and actually have a sort of push and pull, meaning a negotiation or where we're not just interacting or interpreting or receiving or reacting, but there's actually a negotiation.
15:34 So, for example, some of those tools we call it like an example of a tool is like a container state that comes to mind. So where we use a lot of words in creation. So, for example, the container could be a word like.
15:53 I'm trying to find a reference like grotesque and the state is maybe liberation. And so the body is in a container of grotesque and the individual is trying to find a state of liberation. And so what we're trying to do is we kind of put these two words together and the artists are exploring what does it mean to be in a container of grotesque and in a state of liberation.
16:14 That doesn't for me or we play with these sort of tools because. creates a sort of language that we understand what we're playing with, but the interest is not the succession of that. It's not how well is it received, how well is it literal, it's just kind of being able to see a person in negotiation with these two elements and the point of view that is brought forward.
16:37 We also have things like we've named it like all supports one, one supports all and those are just like tools where we know okay whatever situation we're in choreographically, what does it mean to be in a situation where one is supporting all or all are supporting one.
16:51 So trying to name sort of bigger picture tools where it's vague enough that there's room for interpretation and for a situation to guide what is happening in that moment, but clear enough I think in what we're just in our own comprehension together of these things so that we can move forward in a direction.
17:12 So a lot of the works are built with these sort of larger picture tools that were yeah trying to find language for. Thank you that's really fascinating to just get a little more clarity about what that means and it's like so rich already with imagery.
17:30 You describe Bogota as queering death or that one aspect of the work is queering death and when we met and had our conversation last year you also introduced me to Sarah Ahmed's queer phenomenology and I'm wondering if you can talk about what queer as a verb means to you, to your practice, to Bogota specifically.
17:55 So I think in that notion of you know both also millennial artists the APNA is the team is predominantly queer doesn't mean everybody has to be your is queer but there's a big part of from the people that work in production to designers to the performers to our grand writers are people who identify as queer which for me means without defining it because we always say like who are we to define what queer it is what is a queer aesthetic that's not the goal like it's queer it for us is more of a lens a point of view like glasses that you put on that that you see the world in a certain way so definitely we use a lot the term queering in APNA.
18:36 I was recently talking to Jonathan Sosier designer and he's like you know every time I'm thinking about the sonography I feel that the way I think about the materiality is how am I on the edge or how am I queering this materiality what does it mean to queer that materiality it's a very metaphorical metaphysical word but I think we try to approach from lighting to sonography to costumes to our writing like how do we queer and in Bogota specifically and in the notion of like looking at death I didn't know we were going to make a piece about death or I didn't know that was going to be what I was going to propose to the team but I started being fascinated with death as a notion of like cycles of transformation and deaths outside of maybe more western notions of death like the end of life,
19:27 but rather looking at death as like the multiple deaths and rebirths that we have in our lifetime, like in a human lifetime here on this earth, and other alternative notions of what those cycles mean.
19:42 So that was kind of a way of queering that question. And then specifically, somehow, this notion of death and life cycles brought me back to Bogota, my hometown, and I've never made a work that is super rooted in my culture in such a tangible way and my ancestors and the place where I was born.
20:06 But I realized that a lot of the history of Colombia is rooted in these notions of different cycles of life and from the colonial era, you know, like the colonization and taking a lot of our ancestral heritage to contemporary notions of life and death, to the way we mythologize life and death.
20:28 I don't know if you've heard of magical realism, but in Colombia, magical realism is both in literature, but it's like extremely rooted into everyday life stories and ways of living. And through this mythological research, I became fascinated with what I found out is the Latin American Baroque or the Andean Baroque.
20:55 And Baroque paintings are all about the Renaissance, death, rebirth, resurrection, all of these European perspectives on the notion of death. And in Latin America, when Latin America was colonized, a lot of churches and paintings, obviously all of this infrastructure came with, but a lot of the craftsmen and artisanal people of Colombia who were building these things, not just Colombia, but other countries in Latin America,
21:26 started to hybridize a lot of these Baroque architectures, paintings that were being imposed by infusing them with Latin American ancestral, I would say, aesthetics, qualities, and narratives. So for example, in Bogota, you have a small church that is super Baroque, extremely exaggerated, covered in gold, but all the paintings of these religious Catholic saints that the local people painted are actually painted in the backdrop of the Amazon.
21:59 So you have these religious saints that are coming from colonization, but they're being painted in the Amazon. And so you have these sort of tensions between what is local and what is being imposed and the subverting of the Baroque by the Latin American people.
22:15 So this was really fascinating for us. realize that the Baroque is not just something European but it was something that was subverted subverted many many years ago and in that we were thinking wow well what does it mean to queer the Baroque as well like a lot of the times the Baroque representation and everything that is religious is obviously has a long-standing history with queer bodies and notions of body so we also took a lot of these paintings and we tried to queer those paintings so find ways of representing hinting at playing with these hybrid Baroques but through the queer body what is it i mean we have a movement called the Double Gate Jesus and it's two men on top of each other like back to chest in a sort of Jesus position in this really beautiful tender embrace so trying to kind of subvert these notions through queering of image of like images that are so embedded in our social cultural history and I think Colombia in particular a country that is sort of highly influenced by Catholic culture,
23:25 Catholic religion and how that's intention in the country itself. To imagine this sort of queer landscape and when we talk about death you know you're asking me about queering death Bogota is also this sort of we call it a sort of post-human and post-colonial space where we're trying to imagine you know what does it mean what is the future of of a colonial I don't think we're in post-colonial times at all but like our role as artists is to imagine what this looks like and imagine these sort of places so we're using I always say Bogota is a piece about Bogota but it's not about Bogota Bogota I'm using it as a sort of trampoline that is very personal to me my culture my ancestry to talk about like post-colonial landscapes and what that looks like and how do we queer those imaginaries by how bodies inhabit each other in space and for us to queer some of that stuff was also like there's a lot of chaos and complexity in Bogota and it was important that we create visual aesthetic choreographic spaces that make space for complexity and non-uniformity and non-homogeneity so that we as people I think society is not really comfortable with complexity we really like order and we like to understand and so for us as artists like how do we make space for us to sit with complexity on stage as a way of building different visual landscapes that become part of social culture After Push Balibisi will be presenting choreography they've commissioned from you and I would love to hear you talk about the through lines of your choreographic inquiry so if people see Bogota and then your work with Balibisi what might they see as an ASIMS that carries through?
25:17 I think it's a really good question. I mean, you know, I'm really excited to work with Ballet BC. It's like coming back to like one, a place where I started working. So it's like a massive full cycle and we've never been to Vancouver and Vancouver was my home for such a long time.
25:30 So I'm so excited for all of this. I think it's wonderful that the artists of Ballet BC can come see APNA, you know, because we work on a piece for three years, we're able to build practices, methods, kinship and ecology that helps us dream of these other universes that are pluriversal and complex.
25:53 And that's like in the, it's in the ecritsir, like it's in the choreographic writing. Of course, bringing that to Ballet BC is a challenge in five, six weeks, but that's the goal is like, how much of that point of view can we bring to a company who does repertoire?
26:10 How much of those ways of working and seeing can... Can I transfer and bring into conversation with the artists of Bali, BC? I think in particular, one of the things that really excites me and we were talking with Mehdi about this the other day is I think this notion of negotiation for me really comes from my design background.
26:32 So we were trying to imagine how can I bring a sort of design, let's call it loosely intervention or a design situation that allows for the work that we'll do at Bali, BC to have some form of negotiation.
26:48 So that's kind of what we're thinking about is trying to imagine, I call it loosely a design intervention not to give too much away because it's there but I don't know if I'm gonna go in that direction but something that allows for the choreographic work at Bali, BC to be a negotiation between these people.
27:03 The goal is to make a piece on the full company so it's a lot of performers to transfer some of those ideas over. But yeah, I think that would be it. My goal is to sort of transfer these notions of negotiation and also the sort of hybrid practices between design and dance movement.
27:23 I always say for us, sonography is not, I never call it sonography. Usually I call it more like landscapes of interaction because it's important to see how the body is in dialogue with its environment.
27:36 So we're trying to find what's possible to do with Bali, BC in that regards. And with regard to design, because yeah, you've mentioned you're a design artist and that's a big part of your practice. And in Volkata, you reference Baroque which we've spoken about, brutalism.
27:56 Are these aesthetics thematic to your work or are those really specific to Volkata? No, actually they're really, it's interesting we were, there's currently actually a research group at UCAM, the University of Quebec Amor et al that is studying like AP&A practices.
28:16 So it's really interesting from like a ecological sonography from a decolonial dramaturgy with Angelie Rilke to two students in the theatre department. There's a sort of research group that is meeting for a year to understand the sort of decolonial and design practices of AP&A and what are like you asked me to name some tools it's like we're trying to name these things so that we can also democratize like the things we create to like build discourse around practice like what are artists making today in 2024 and what is choreography and how can we also make some of those thoughts tools trial and error available at large.
28:58 So there's a an interesting group working on that at UCAM at the moment and they asked me, they were like, what do you mean by industrial? And me, Ugo, the lighting designer in Jonathan, the sonography were like, whoa, we've never, we just take that word for granted, because we've been working for so long together.
29:16 And it was interesting, because I said, for me, the industrial refers to the past and the future. And it's a word why I'm trying to encompass both past and future notions of the industrial, where obviously the past is like the industrial revolution and the industrialization of humanity, where like, you know, we live in a very industrialized society, whether we're aware of it or not, you know, from everything from cars nine to five,
29:42 like the industrial revolution really affected the sort of mechanized lifestyle of humanity. And everything that is industrial, we call that also the body of labor. So in APNA, we name different bodies.
29:55 So we have bodies of mythology, bodies of labor, bodies of like bodies of anthropology, bodies of non-human, like we try to name different bodies. So those are also just to insert the tools. And this notion of bodies of labor for me really comes from Colombia, like a lot of the countries that exist in the peripheries, right, countries that are not the center like North America, but a lot of countries of the periphery,
30:21 you see a lot of bodies of labor, right, you have a lot of industries that are still active, even in Quebec or in Canada, like the moment you step out of Montreal and you go to Rimsky or like these outside cities, you see industry and you see these bodies who through industrialization, they become bodies of labor.
30:39 So for us, the word industrial hints at this sort of body of labor, and also the resilience and the humility of most of those bodies of labor that exist outside of the center or the city center. And at the same time, now for us, the word industrial also is sort of hinting at everything that is the artificial.
30:58 So let's call it like the post-human and thinking about the digital environment, the digital era, artificial. intelligence we just did a piece called replica that looks at the sort of notions of replication of body through time and because i was quite quite fascinated with like how we represent bodies in the digital sphere today with the metaverse and tiktok and all this stuff um so yeah the industrial sort of teeters between everything that is this body of labor that comes from the industrialization and things that are maybe most more post-human or artificial or artificial intelligence um in terms of digital digital culture thank you andrea we are very blessed to have you coming you and apna the artist you work with coming to share this work with us here i am so thrilled i'm so excited um and i imagine that our listeners are too after hearing you paint this rich picture of the kind of influences and tools that you're using to devise this work no we're super excited i mean i think for me coming back to vancouver like i mentioned is It's quite precious.
32:05 There's a community there that I still feel connected to. We haven't been to Vancouver yet. And I think, again, just to be in conversation through practice, I think is really, really interesting for all of us.
32:20 You just heard Gabriel Martin's conversation with Andrea Pena. Her show, Bogota, will be presented at the Push International Performing Arts Festival on January 31st and February 1st, 2025 at the Vancouver Playhouse.
32:34 The festival will run from January 23rd to February 9th. I'm Ben Charland, and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Trisha Knowles. Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
32:53 And for more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca. And on the next Push Play.
33:09 When I was little, I thought that one day I would feel like an adult, but that day never came. I'm just I'm still the same person. I just have a little bit more of responsibilities than when I was 11.
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| 15 Oct 2024 | Ep. 33 - Impulse and Iteration (2019) | 00:27:11 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Miriam Fernandes, co-artistic director of Toronto’s why not theatre. Show Notes Gabrielle and Miriam discuss:
About Miriam Fernandes Miriam is a Toronto-based artist who has worked as an actor, director, and theatre-maker around the world. Acting credits include Jungle Book (WYRD/Kidoons), Animal Farm (Soulpepper Theatre), Prince Hamlet (Why Not Theatre), Dinner with the Gods (Wolf and Wallflower, Sydney AU), The Snow Queen and A Sunday Affair (Theatre New Brunswick), The Living (Summerworks Performance Festival), and Soliciting Temptation (Tarragon Theatre). She has trained with the SITI Company, and is a graduate of Ecole Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq in Paris. Directing and creation credits include Nesen, (MiniMidiMaxi Festival, Norway) The First Time I Saw the Sea (YVA Company, Norway). She is currently in development for a few new pieces that she is co-creating including an adaptation of the Mahabharata, Three Pigs, and a new play called Partition. Miriam is the recipient of the JBC Watkins Award and was nominated for the inaugural Johanna Metcalf Performing Arts Prize. About why not theatre When a well-respected global performer couldn’t get an audition in Toronto, we knew it was time for a change. Ravi Jain moved back to Toronto after building a career in theatre in New York and London. After years of growth and creativity, his ambitions came to a standstill when traditional companies wouldn’t welcome his voice. When adversity pushed, Ravi pushed back and launched Why Not. Since 2007, Why Not has taken on modern social issues and redefined what it means to be an independent theatre company. Ravi was later joined by Owais Lightwala and Kelly Read, in a unique tri-leadership team that was key to Why Not’s success. Today, this leadership structure is being further expanded into a more collaborative model, with Ravi, Karen Tisch, and Miriam Fernandes at the helm. Together, we are forcing doors open, inventing, encouraging and building a creative community, welcoming stories that look and feel like Toronto, and sharing it all with the world. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded in Tkaronto (Toronto), on the traditional territory of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples and is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. Tkaronto is covered by Treaty 13 signed with the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the Williams Treaties signed with multiple Mississaugas and Chippewa bands. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who have helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Today's episode features Miriam Fernandez of Why Not Theatre and is anchored around the 2019 Push Festival. Miriam is a Toronto -based artist and Why Not Theatre co -director who has worked as an actor, director, and theatre maker around the world.
Gabrielle Martin 00:39 She has trained with the Citi Company and is a graduate of École Automacional de Tiâtre Jacques Le Coque in Paris. Miriam is the recipient of the JBC Watkins Award and was nominated for the inaugural Johanna Metcalfe Performing Arts Prize.
Gabrielle Martin 00:55 Since 2007, Why Not has taken on modern social issues and redefined what it means to be an independent theatre company. Its mission is to make things better through art, to reinvent how stories are told, to inspire new ways of thinking about creativity and civic engagement.
Gabrielle Martin 01:12 Here's my conversation with Miriam. And we are in Tkaranto, which is the traditional home of many First Nations, including the Mississauga of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Wendat, the Chippewa, and the Haudenosaunee.
Gabrielle Martin 01:30 And it is currently also the home of nations, including the Inuit and the Métis. And we are also in the backyard, Miriam's backyard. Yeah, and your new backyard, because you just moved here a couple weeks ago.
Gabrielle Martin 01:43 And so today we're gonna be focusing on Prince Hamlet, which was one of the Why Not Theatre works that has been presented at PUSH. So this was a 2019 PUSH presentation, but Why Not Theatre has also been presented at PUSH in 2014 with a brim full of asha, and in 2020 with what we won't, what you won't do for love.
Gabrielle Martin 02:04 But let's just jump right in. I would love to know about Prince Hamlet, about, if you could tell us a bit about this project, and then maybe how, what the process was for bringing that work to Vancouver.
Gabrielle Martin 02:18 Yeah.
Miriam Fernandes 02:19 So, Prince Hamlet is a show that we built actually in 2017 for the first time. It premiered at the theatre centre, where you were earlier today, and it was a completely deaf and hearing, fully accessible production.
Miriam Fernandes 02:34 So it's Hamlet basically remixed, and it centers a deaf performer, Don Janne Burley, at the centre of the show. Don plays Horatio, who's Hamlet's best friend, who's really the only person left living at the end of the play.
Miriam Fernandes 02:49 And so Hamlet, if you know the play, in his dying breath, he says, Horatio, tell the world my story. And so our production begins at the very end, with Horatio recounting the story through his memory.
Miriam Fernandes 03:02 And so, it was the first time that we at Ynot had ever worked with a deaf performer, and Don was really a ferocious champion around, Don is a third generation deaf person and an artist, and was really ferocious about creating a production that was completely intersectional, so that it wasn't about hearing people, including a deaf person, in the show.
Miriam Fernandes 03:26 It was actually really truly for both audiences. And so the entire show is bilingual, the whole show is both being signed by Don all the time. So she signs for like three and a half hours, as she's narrating, it's pretty remarkable.
Miriam Fernandes 03:40 And also the hearing act, the rest of the cast is hearing. And so the scenes kind of, it's kind of like two plays in parallel, that are intersecting throughout. So we... Super ambitious.
Gabrielle Martin 03:52 It was super ambitious. And that's why it's so memorable, too. It's an iconic piece of pushes that I've heard so much about.
Miriam Fernandes 03:59 You know, and it's funny, like most why not shows, like we don't know what we're making when we're making it. And so when we made it in 2017, we had no, it wasn't really built to tour, but it was clear.
Miriam Fernandes 04:10 Like it, it was so exciting that the audiences that came to see the show were truly mixed. It was like deaf and hearing audiences together. Most deaf audiences have never experienced Hamlet before because it's not, it's not accessible.
Miriam Fernandes 04:25 Why would you go to the theater if you can't, experience your language? And so John's translation of Hamlet was also like super beautiful and poetic. She is like a real master with, with language. And so she translated Shakespeare basically to a heightened poetic ASL.
Miriam Fernandes 04:44 And so, for deaf audiences, they were experiencing their language, but like in a really beautiful heightened way for the first time on stage like that in Hamlet. Audiences, so many people mentioned that it was like the first time that they experienced Hamlet like that, even though they'd seen the show a million times, but the visual component was like, it just brought a whole new dimension.
Gabrielle Martin 05:06 And I remember that I wasn't there, but I've heard so much that she also gave the keynote speech of the industry series because, or address of the industry series. And I think that choice, you know, reflecting on it is probably because of just how progressive and innovative and original this adaptation was.
Miriam Fernandes 05:29 Yeah, I mean Dawn, so Dawn is a Canadian artist who lives in Finland right now. She kind of lives between Canada and Finland because Finland has so much, it's a way better place to be deaf because you actually have access to interpreters and, um, work and there's national deaf theaters in Finland and Norway and Sweden.
Miriam Fernandes 05:49 And so Dawn has actually been a real champion for bringing a lot of that work back to Canada and we've been supporting her in creating her own company over the last few years, which people should check out, 1S1 Theater.
Miriam Fernandes 06:00 Um, she has a new show coming up this fall, which you can see on the website. Um, but it really, it all started out of Hamlet. So in 2017, we created Hamlet without any real idea that we were going to tour it.
Miriam Fernandes 06:11 And there was such a, an interest in the production and clearly like all of this conversation around like equity, which had been bubbling for years, like all of this language around diversity and equity and inclusion, um, it was really kind of like at a breaking point.
Miriam Fernandes 06:28 And so I think the interest in Hamlet and for, and for us, it was also like, it's not, it wasn't about inclusivity. It was actually an innovation in form that it was an artistic innovation. That's that, that's why the show is, is special.
Miriam Fernandes 06:42 And so there was a bunch of interest to tour it and we really wanted to tour it across Canada and push. I think we're one of the first folks that came on board.
Gabrielle Martin 06:50 And you said it wasn't really built to tour is that because it was 17 people on the road or the cast
Miriam Fernandes 06:55 So the cast was nine people, plus we had a stage management team of two or three, plus we have two interpreters who travel with us, and a producer, and then touring a show like Hamlet, which is intersectional, we went like, you can't just tour the show like you tour a regular show, like we have to be in contact with the box office, like the whole experience has to be accessible for deaf folks who never come to the theater otherwise.
Gabrielle Martin 07:19 that mean that you brought more people on the road or that you just had more conversations with the presenters leading up?
Miriam Fernandes 07:26 So the two interpreters we definitely brought on the road with us, but they were really Dawn's interpreters. And then each venue, basically it was a deeper conversation with each presenter. So each venue had front of house interpreters who were there to welcome deaf folks as they came into the theater.
Miriam Fernandes 07:43 There were, the way that we marketed the show was like completely different. Like it was something that hearing people would never think about, but like all of the print language was for a lot of deaf folks, English is not their first language, sign language is their first language.
Miriam Fernandes 07:59 And so having people spread the word through videos, through vlogs, like that's how the word spread. And like there were people, people drove from Saskatoon to Vancouver to see the show because there was so much demand.
Miriam Fernandes 08:11 You don't see that show across Canada. So it was really special to like have so many people show up in Vancouver to see the show.
Gabrielle Martin 08:18 And you had just started with why not at that time and you were the associate artistic director at that time And now you're the co -artistic director And so this was that your first tour then with the company?
Gabrielle Martin 08:30 Yeah, it was actually okay. Yeah, and so what was it like? Coming to push. What was your how did your relationship start with push? What was your perception of the festival when you were there?
Miriam Fernandes 08:40 No, it was really, really awesome. I think, uh, as someone who was born, who's from Toronto, like my point of references are like the Minato and Tiafah, and, um, kind of stuff that happens on the East coast of the States.
Miriam Fernandes 08:53 So, uh, having the chance, it's funny, even in Canada, like we were talking today about how East and West Toronto don't mix, it's often in Canada too, like East coast and West coast don't. It's, it's a big country.
Miriam Fernandes 09:06 Um, but going out to push was so awesome because I got to, uh, like meet so many Vancouver artists, which was really beautiful. We were performing at UBC, which was gorgeous. Like I'd only ever heard of UBC before.
Miriam Fernandes 09:19 Um, and like the audiences, it was clear, like the energy in the city was like all around push and it was such a big deal. I was there for the industry event because Dawn, uh, Dawn was the keynote, which was great.
Miriam Fernandes 09:31 And like, I met so many international presenters and also to like understand geographically, there were so many presenters and like artists from like Asia Pacific or Australia or New Zealand who were coming to Vancouver.
Miriam Fernandes 09:44 And I was like, Oh yeah. Like we in Toronto, we get like Europe kind of Europe and the States kind of coming up to Toronto, but it was so cool to be like, Oh yeah, there's like a whole, the other half of the world actually comes to Vancouver for push.
Miriam Fernandes 09:57 So it was great to meet people and yeah, hear what people are working on. And then.
Gabrielle Martin 10:02 In 2020, you came back, so just the next year, with What You Won't Do For Love. And that project is a collaboration with David Suzuki and David Suzuki's partner, Tara Cullis. And did you meet them while you were there then?
Miriam Fernandes 10:22 It's funny actually, when we came to push for Hamlet, the week before we did Hamlet in Vancouver, we spent a week with David and Tara just roughly researching this idea.
Gabrielle Martin 10:36 At that point, what was the idea for people who don't know?
Miriam Fernandes 10:39 So Ravi had reached out to David actually saying, Ravi had wanted to make a show about the climate and he had worked with a woman named Elena Mitchell on a show called Seasick, which is now Tour of the World.
Miriam Fernandes 10:51 And Ravi was saying, I want to make another piece about the climate and who else would you make that with than David Suzuki in Canada? And so he reached out to David in an email and David, originally the idea was for David to play Galileo in Bertolt Brecht's The Life of Galileo.
Miriam Fernandes 11:06 And David was 84 at the time and he was like, hey, like I've never done a play. I'm super flattered. You asked. I would love to, but I don't think I'm going to memorize all of these lines. And so Ravi was like, okay, maybe that's not the right one.
Miriam Fernandes 11:20 Like let's like, if you're interested, let's try to like, see if we can make something. So over the time, David was also like trying to retire. He was 84, but he's like, he's never going to retire. He kind of retired now.
Miriam Fernandes 11:33 Anyways, he spent a lot of time talking about his wife, Tara and his kids and his grandkids. And so Ravi said, look, what if we, what if we actually try to make this show quality time with your wife and we try to make something with you and Tara?
Miriam Fernandes 11:45 And so everybody who knows David and Tara knows that David's kind of like the front of camera guy and Tara's doing everything in the background. Like she started the foundation. So, uh, we said, like, let's just, let's just spend some time.
Miriam Fernandes 12:00 David said, if you can convince Tara to do this, like it's, she says, yes, we're it. And so Tara, so we spent a week that, uh, before we did Hamlet, we spent a week with them at the DSF in Kitsilano, just kind of like exploring what this play could be.
Miriam Fernandes 12:18 Again, we had no idea what we were going to make. We didn't know what the form was going to be. We just knew it had to do with the two of them. And so we spent a week in a boardroom, listening to their stories and going through a bunch of pictures.
Miriam Fernandes 12:30 And then from there, we kind of, we gathered a bunch of stories, but we're still completely lost, but we're like, okay, it's clear that Tara's story, Tara's the center of this thing, which everybody knows David, but so few people know Tara.
Miriam Fernandes 12:43 And she's like a force of nature. She, she's so amazing, so inspiring. She was the executive, she started the David Suzuki foundation, was the executive director for many, many years. Like, uh, one of my personal heroes, she's amazing.
Miriam Fernandes 12:59 And so we knew that the show was going to be about the two of them, but really highlighting Tara. And so we just needed time to develop and then push was really awesome. So Franco was, uh, taking over push at that time.
Miriam Fernandes 13:12 And Franco said, well, why don't you come back and just, and develop this for a little while. And so, and then you can do some kind of sharing at push, which is really how we as a company develop work.
Miriam Fernandes 13:21 We're kind of we're company of divisors. Revvie and I both come from a Rekok background. And so iteration and reiteration is like just how we work. So we're like, great. We have like this idea of David and Tara and their stories.
Miriam Fernandes 13:34 And we have three weeks in a rehearsal hall, and then we're going to have a show to, we're going to present something.
Gabrielle Martin 13:40 In those three weeks, we're in Vancouver.
Miriam Fernandes 13:41 They were in Vancouver, they were in the Russian hall. And Push, so Push helped us organize the space and everything. And we had an amazing time. And it was actually during those three weeks that we kind of cracked open what the show was going to be.
Miriam Fernandes 13:56 Which was a conversational piece of theatre between David and Tara. And at the time it was Ravi and I sitting with them.
Gabrielle Martin 14:02 Mm -hmm and is that the version that you did?
Miriam Fernandes 14:04 in 2020. That was the version we did in 2020. So it was David and Tara and Ravi and I having a dinner party, like a kind of quote unquote dinner party. And we had a Vancouver design team, Jamie Nesbitt, Meg Rowe.
Miriam Fernandes 14:18 And it was really beautiful. We captured all their stories. I scribed them all because we were like, there's their stories.
Gabrielle Martin 14:27 incredible lifetimes.
Miriam Fernandes 14:28 crazy. Yeah. You could spend months sitting at this table. Yeah. But I started kind of scribing them and then we cut and we were, we shaped the piece like that basically in our like Airbnb for over three weeks.
Miriam Fernandes 14:40 We were up to like two in the morning every day just trying to put it together. But it was, it was so awesome to not only have the space to like develop over three weeks, but have a presentation in a festival like that at the end of that.
Miriam Fernandes 14:54 I feel like um, that was really, it was really important for them. Sure.
Gabrielle Martin 15:00 And it's not, that's a more rare kind of engagement that Push has in terms of hosting artists in residency. You know, it's something that has been done, but just the nature of being a present, an organization focused on presentation, not having our own space, makes it a little bit more complicated to host artists in that way.
Gabrielle Martin 15:19 So yeah, I'm so glad that why not was able to develop this work? And then you ended up doing a version that was a digital version after that, because then the pandemic hit. And I remember just side note experiencing that work, which was a wonderful introduction to Tara and also to this idea of thinking about climate and also contextualizing it in relationships and kind of having that micro to macro relationship where those two conversations happening simultaneously through the work.
Gabrielle Martin 15:52 And I remember also you brought up questions, I believe you brought up questions about kind of the implication of having children in this time. Yeah, and now I have a two year old and you will soon have.
Gabrielle Martin 16:03 Nine months pregnant. Maybe, so questions that maybe we're still reconciling.
Miriam Fernandes 16:10 Well, the thing is funny actually being, because before I got pregnant, I mean, it's, I feel like for, for me, it really was a question. Like, how do you think about bringing more people into this world?
Miriam Fernandes 16:20 Uh, but David and Tara, like they're so, the, the central question of the play really is if we could love the planet, the way that we love the people who are closest to us, would we change? Cause we would do anything for the people that we love.
Miriam Fernandes 16:32 We would do anything to protect them. And so David tells us great story about, uh, his daughter, Savran, who says like she has, who has two kids who now runs the DSF, she's the new executive director.
Miriam Fernandes 16:45 And she says, my kids are my commitment to the future and your understanding of the future and the generations to come is actually just becomes visceral as soon as you have kids. And so that really stuck with me.
Miriam Fernandes 16:58 And like the conversations that we had that we unpacked was, uh, really powerful for me as like, as a person and as an artist, but also just thinking about like, uh, the power of love. Like, actually, if love is as Kara says in the play, like love will make us do impossible things and this climate crisis right now is impossible.
Miriam Fernandes 17:20 So we have to fuel it with something more than just science. It's the statistics are not doing it for us right now. So.
Gabrielle Martin 17:27 And what you won't do for love, obviously you're working with folks who don't have a professional performance practice, and that wasn't a new thing for you. So, A Brimful of Asha was the work that was presented in 2014 at Push.
Gabrielle Martin 17:43 I understand there was a similar theme there. Maybe you could talk to us about kind of the evolution of Why Not Theatre's artistic approach over these years, and how your own artistic approach fits into that mix.
Miriam Fernandes 17:58 So I would say, so Brimful of Asha was the first show that Why Not Brought to Push, like you said, in 2014. It was a show that Ravi Jain, who's my co -artistic director, did with his real -life mother.
Miriam Fernandes 18:10 And they tell the story, the true story of how Ravi's parents tried to arrange his marriage in India and it went very poorly, but it's a very funny story. And Ravi's mom is somebody who's never been on stage before.
Miriam Fernandes 18:21 She spent her whole life raising kids, cooking, like taking care of them. And so, but she is hilarious and completely steals the show. And so when Ravi was making the show, he said, he thought like, if we're going to tell this story about arranged marriage, both of our perspectives actually have to be part of it.
Miriam Fernandes 18:41 And so they crafted the show. It's actually very, it inspired what you want to do for love in a lot of ways in that it's a non -performer who's on stage. So how do we create the container around that person to make them the most comfortable so that they can shine?
Miriam Fernandes 18:56 And so if you ever, anybody who's seen Brimful, it's toured around the world for like 10 years now. It's great. It's like set in Ravi's mom's kitchen and they're sitting at the kitchen table and they're trying to convince the audience who's right, if it should be a love marriage or if it should be a arranged marriage.
Miriam Fernandes 19:13 It's very, very funny. Mrs. Jain is very convincing. And so I would say like that work, that was one of the first like major works that why not created. That work kind of set the stage for a lot of the way that the company has developed and Ravi's work and by extension, the work that we've made together, we just really all it has to do with like who is in the room, the people in the room creating the project will determine what the product is.
Miriam Fernandes 19:41 So in a similar way with Hamlet, because Dawn was there and because Dawn is who she is and who was fighting for the deaf audience to have the exact same amount of access to the language and the story as a hearing audience.
Miriam Fernandes 19:56 We made that show what it was because of Dawn. It would have been a completely different show if it was somebody else. And so in creating What You Want To For Love, which was again, we were looking at a show with non -performers, people who are not used to being on stage, Tara, especially like David's used to being in front of a camera and speaking in the script, but Tara has never done that before.
Miriam Fernandes 20:18 And so we basically wanted to create a container that would showcase her and support her. And so we sit at the table. We don't, we have our scripts with us in front of us and we tell the audience, we kind of make a joke of it at the beginning because David says, I don't want to, I'm not going to memorize lines.
Miriam Fernandes 20:35 And we say, great, we won't memorize any lines. We'll just read off the script. And so those kinds of like little tools, which not only support the performers, but they also kind of like open up a vulnerable relationship with the audience that started to become a language that became really successful in that work.
Miriam Fernandes 20:57 Because then we're all, we don't, we're not actually pretending, we're like, we're all here together. We're, we're. It's honest. It's honest. Like we are who we are. David and Tara are David's 80, 88 years old now.
Miriam Fernandes 21:11 Like you're still doing the show. David's 88. I won't say how old Tara is, but like there will be moments where we stumble and it's okay. It's like, it's where it, it actually is the thing that we do in theater that's live.
Miriam Fernandes 21:25 And so I feel like, yeah, the evolution from Brimful of Asha to another show that we did made called like mother, like daughter, which is similarly inspired by Brimful of Asha to what you want to do for love.
Miriam Fernandes 21:39 There are even bits of it in Mahabharata, which is our newest and largest show where there's a meal in between the two productions. And there's a meal that's basically myself and Sharda Ishwar, who's a community storyteller.
Miriam Fernandes 21:53 And so we sit at a table while everybody's having a meal and we have our scripts with us and we speak about the show. And it's, again, it's crafted, it's scripted. It feels improvisational, but it is very scripted.
Miriam Fernandes 22:05 And it's again, a way to like highlight a non -performer in a setting that they're comfortable in that lets them shine and that where the whole audience can kind of just like relax their shoulders because we're not pretending.
Gabrielle Martin 22:19 All right, and had you been working in this way before joining WhyNot in 2018?
Miriam Fernandes 22:26 No, uh, 20, yeah, 2019, 2019, not, not so, um, not so specifically, I, yeah, no, not so specifically. I think it's a pretty unique way that why not because it is very difficult and time consuming, but it's worthwhile.
Gabrielle Martin 22:44 how did your artistic practice match and meet the company's work and how did you end up with why not in this role and what you what either were kind of underlying interest that you shared or something that you brought that has in informed its direction so
Miriam Fernandes 23:07 I come from a theatre -making background, so I studied at a school in Paris called Le Coq, the name of Jack Le Coq. And so for me, I think the way that Ravi and I make work is very similar in that it's a very iterative process.
Miriam Fernandes 23:27 And so it's tricky because you never, you're just going on instinct. Sometimes we start with the script, sometimes we don't start with the script. A lot of the time it's just, it's impulse. So for what you want to do for love, we're like, we think there are love songs.
Miriam Fernandes 23:44 So we spent a bunch of time with the whole creative team just gathering everybody's favorite love songs and listening to them and getting into the mood. We're like, we think it's about love and the planet.
Miriam Fernandes 23:57 And so we're just kind of following that impulse and provoking with questions.
Gabrielle Martin 24:02 I mean, that's a great answer. I just threw that at you, the sort of genuine curiosity in the moment. But I think you're speaking to it, you know, that just the process of devising and clearly you and Ravi have a similar language and kind of trust in following your intuition.
Gabrielle Martin 24:24 And I would imagine that there's some affinity between your intuitive impulses.
Miriam Fernandes 24:29 Yeah, there's definitely like there there are things where we both completely agree on and then there are other ways where we just pull each other in different directions and sometimes he's right and sometimes I'm right, but it's like it's the trust to know that like, okay, I'm going to let this person lead me and then I'm going to lead and then we're going to find a way together.
Miriam Fernandes 24:46 Mahabharata was kind of like the, the biggest process. We were writing it together for five years. Wow. And so it was really hard, but also really amazing to be in a process for that long and trying to, and both of us trying to follow our impulses together and find our way through this huge maze of stories.
Gabrielle Martin 25:07 Well, it's been so exciting to follow the development of the company. And this project, Mahabharata, has been a national creation fund supported project. So the scale of the work has grown, the international acclaim and distribution, the company's capacity.
Gabrielle Martin 25:28 And I should also mention that I was a 2021 This Gen Fellow. So part of the cultural leadership stream, a mentorship program of why not. And I was paired with Marcus Yousuf. It was an incredible long -term mentorship, which has continued since then.
Gabrielle Martin 25:48 So that's how I first met Miriam and Ravi and was introduced to your work. Thanks so much for chatting with me and providing us with a little bit more context and insight into your relationship with Push and into your practice.
Gabrielle Martin 26:03 Thank you.
Tricia Knowles 26:06 That was a special episode of Push Play in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run January 23rd to February 9th, 2025 in Vancouver, British Columbia. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Tricia Knowles 26:27 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charlin. A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabrielle Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. | |||
| 09 Jan 2025 | Ep. 52 - From the Ordinary to the Universal (Dimanche) | 00:25:35 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Julie Tenret of Focus and Sandrine Heyraud of Chaliwaté about their show Dimanche, which will be presented at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. Dimanche will be presented with our friends at the Cultch on February 6, 7 and 8 at the Vancouver Playhouse, supported by Vancouver Civic Theatres. Show Notes Gabrielle, Julie and Sandrine discuss:
About Dimanche The Companies Focus (created by Julie Tenret) and Chaliwaté (consisting of Sandrine Heyraud and Sicaire Durieux) gathered around the collective writing of Dimanche. For a long time, the two companies had been following and appreciating the work of the other. It became apparent that they had a similar approach, a shared taste for unusual, visual, artisanal and poetic forms of theatre. The three artists decided to pool their talents to create a new form of writing combining gestural theatre, object theatre, puppetry, acting and video. This project is a continuation of their respective research. Since 2016, they have worked meticulously to create a unique, visual and poetic language that draws its inspiration from everyday life, the intimate, the “infra-ordinary”, to tap into the universal. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Bettina joined the conversation from Brussels, Belgium. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights an artisanal approach to connect with humanity.
00:17 I'm speaking with Julie Teneré and Sandrine Heroux, two of the lead artists behind Dimanche, which is being presented at the Push Festival February 6th to 8th, 2025. Between dreamlike fiction and stark reality, Dimanche paints a sharp yet tender portrait of humanity caught off guard by devastating natural disasters.
00:37 It depicts the ingenuity and stubbornness of humans as they cling to habits amid ecological collapse, asking how much longer can we ignore the storm at our door. Directed by Julie Teneré, who graduated from INSAS, the company Focus, from Brussels, creates shows combining theater of objects, puppets, actors, and video.
00:57 The scenic language she proposes is essentially visual, metaphorical, poetic, artisanal, and very close to a cinematographic writing. Trained in the gestural arts, Siqueur Duryu and Sandrine Heroux created Chaluaté Company in 2005.
01:15 Based in Brussels, they defend a visual language without words, poetic, physical, and artisanal, mixing gestural theater, object theater, circus, and dance. Here is my conversation with Julie and Sandrine.
01:31 I would like to acknowledge that I'm joining the conversation from the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, so the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh. I'm a settler on these lands, and part of my responsibility as a settler is to continue to educate myself on settler colonialism and the indigenous fight for sovereignty.
01:57 It's not just an indigenous fight, but foreign. indigenous sovereignty over these lands. And so I reference it often, the Yellowhead Institute has this really great, many great reports, including the red paper, which looks at how indigenous consent is ignored, coerced, negotiated, or enforced in Canada with regard to land.
02:20 And I'm just gonna share a little excerpt from this red paper. We analyze how the land tenure regime in Canada is structured upon the denial of indigenous jurisdiction through the creation and enforcement of legal fictions.
02:35 This is followed by limited recognition, which includes an evolving notion of the duty to consult and corresponding government and industry responses. So today, while states are encouraged to adopt the principle of free prior informed consent at the international level, in the Canadian context since 2007, when the UN's Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was first presented, There has been state opposition to a fulsome implementation of free prior and informed consent.
03:06 And I just really appreciate the clarity of this document and the other Yellowhead documents and what an incredible educational tool it is for myself and I know for others. Julie and Sandrine, where are you joining this conversation from today?
03:23 From Brussels, in Belgium. Great, thank you. And is that where both your companies have been based since they were founded? Yes, exactly. Even though we studied maybe in other countries, we started working really professionally in Brussels and in Belgium.
03:44 And soon I'm going to ask you about the history of your companies because they were both founded in 2009, so they have a beautiful history. But first I want to speak more specifically about kind of the themes of Dimanche.
03:57 So, Julie, you've described your work as aiming to deal with social issues, starting from the intimate, the infra-ordinary, to reach the universal. And this is clearly successful in Dimanche. You know, the climate catastrophe is a subject that there is surprisingly little theatre about considering the scale of impending change for humanity.
04:20 But you both, the focus and Chaluaté, seem to have done something very rare to create this work that addresses the fate of the path that we are on with extreme clarity while connecting deeply with the audience across a range of emotions.
04:36 So I'm curious what you think makes this work successful. Of course, there is the theme that is climate change, that is what we are all experiencing today. And what we concentrated on was the denial in which we found ourselves and the people surrounding us between the conscience and knowing that.
04:59 there is a quick action to take, an urgency and the difficulty to translate it in our everyday lives, in our everyday actions. And so it was, for example, we had this sentence of Bill Watterson in Calvin Hobbs that was saying, this is not denial, it's just the reality that I accept.
05:29 And so it was, yes, all this, this absurdity between this knowledge that we have now with all the scientific evidence that we are facing really an extreme urgency of action facing climate change and this impossibility sometimes in our everyday lives to translate it in actions.
05:54 So that was the starting point. That gives rise to a very sadistic situation and so that creates humor and tragedy, and in our work we try always to talk about tragedy through the prism of the humor and tenderness.
06:17 And it was also to recall big things with very simple means because the show is actually with a very artisanal, an artisanal way of using accessories, etc. And because it shows our vulnerability and fragility facing nature and our smallness facing nature, so that was something we really also, was also possible by the means we use in the show, the tools we use that are object theater with physical theater and puppetry.
06:58 When you say artisanal, because this is a, you know, the word exists in English obviously, but I don't often hear it used in the context of theater work. For you, does that relate to the objects? When you say, what do you, can you explain a little bit more what you mean by artisanal?
07:15 It's that there's not a lot of machinery or very sophisticated. We think that there is a big part of the emotion. It's to advocate something bigger than us, which a very simply way. Simple means. Simple means, you know, and that gives something very fragile and very, very human, it brings humanity and poetry.
07:49 And for example, in Dimanche, there was also the mix between physical theater and object theater where, for example, the body is the landscape. and sort of a metaphorically saying that we are parts of the nature.
08:03 So there was also this game between the scales that is very rich between the fact that you can zoom in the images and then take a certain distance. Yeah, I'm hearing that the play and the humor is really key.
08:19 I mean, and I feel that was my own experience, you know, in reflecting on a subject that's so heavy, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just is. But also I think there's something, you know, both of your practices are rooted in object theater, visual theater, physical theater.
08:42 And I think with the use of objects, puppets, There's something about the metaphoric language that you both talk about. And I think that there's something there, too, in terms of our ability to, by taking kind of a step back, or playing with perception, or taking it out of from the very literal kind of narrative theatrical context, where we're seeing like, you know, a couple characters going through this particular series of events,
09:20 I think that the fact that we can relate at moments with a polar bear. That's why also it was very important for us, the question of the humor inside this, this piece is because also it brings an emotional distance.
09:34 And it's activates our sense of proportion, proportion. And yeah, and as you were saying, it it lets us see the absurdity of our human condition. But also, yet it, it brings another point of view, another way of looking at things.
09:56 So it was very important for us not to be in a more realistic approach or scientific approach, because I mean, we're not we are first of all, telling a story and trying to, to put all the means to tell that story.
10:11 Yeah, and humor poetry, it's really something that we always search for. In August 2018, your companies came together to present backup of 30 minute performance at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. And then Dimanche is the full length development of that work, which I had the privilege of seeing in Edinburgh in 2023.
10:34 Can you talk about the journey of collaboration between your two companies, and also the distinct signatures from each of your approaches in Dimanche? Like will we see, can you refer to a certain use of form or technique as something that's more focus or chalawate, or is it a true blend of aesthetics and techniques?
10:55 Well, I think we have, we met first in 2015. Because we used to have shows that were often presented in the same festivals or in the same theatres, and so our paths often crossed. And I think we had also a common taste for unusual theatrical forms.
11:26 As we were saying, very artisanal way of treating images without words. That was something also that was common to us, that we weren't, we, let's say we, the absence of words aroused visual creativity for the both companies.
11:48 And so even though we had different skills, Judy came more from object theater and puppetry, and with Siqueir we came more from a physical background of the arts of movement. But the language was very similar.
12:06 Of the shows that we had, there was a similar, as she says, language. And so it was very organic, the way that we met and the way that the creation was started. And there was really a blend of these tools without saying, OK, now is the puppetry moment, now is the object theater moment, or the physical moment.
12:32 It was really first to tell the story, what we wanted to tell, what were the images that the subject aroused for us, and then how we can make them the more. And I think we had a different approach. But finally, it doesn't depend about our tools.
13:00 Yeah, you know, it was just because we are a different person, but we tried to write a story and was very concentrated about that. And so we took like three years to create the show. It's a very long process.
13:12 And the first years, we just was writing on the table. We really tried to realize a storyboard and a story and then re-approve it on the stage. And some things are reveals themselves. Very interesting orders, not a duel, and yeah.
13:39 Then we re-write things. Of course, seeing how it works on stage. But re-write, this show really like a movie. re-imagines like a movie, it's our process. And so everything with object theater by other tools, but with object theater, we can dream absolutely every we want.
14:03 There is no, yes, no limits. There is no limits. And then we try to translate all the time. We try to find the translation on the stage because we don't want to write a movie, but we won't write a piece of theater, but it's always to try to find a tradition with a very artisanal language.
14:31 And so we try to create a new language with an remix on and mixed all these skills, but yeah, but it's very, we, the very... La Richesque, the rich, the important things for us, it's the collective processes.
14:54 So there is absolutely not one person on this side. And finally, we talk so much that it's just impossible to see how we find this idea. You know, we talk and you propose something interesting. I propose something not interesting, but because I think about it and you know what I mean.
15:15 So finally, it's always quite magical, because you don't really know how the ideas are aroused, but it's a lot of confiance, how do you say, trust, no, it's a lot of trust between us three, because I think that was something that was very important in the collective work, because there's not one person that is a stage director.
15:48 We are three, really writing and experiencing on scene, on stage, the ideas. So it's a lot of trust and a lot of... And for a show like Dimanche, we have write a show, and finally, we lived a lot of things we really loved, but it was not...
16:07 Serving the proposed. Yes. And so it's a long process. But it's very interesting and funny, you know. It's a lot of joy, yes. It's first a lot of joy to work together and the first years we write at three, but the second years, and then finally, we have a big team with us.
16:37 And the sound in our process of writing is very important. We write the song because we don't speak, like Sandrine said. And so we write a song because we, uh, it's as dramaturgical as the rest of the, the tools, because it also, uh, brings the situations, the, the, yeah, it really participates with us.
17:03 Uh, so we worked with someone that comes, came from cinema. And so that really specialized all the sounds on stage. So it would really come from the different, uh, spaces. And so that was something really, that was, um, uh, a big work also.
17:23 Was that new to this process or had you done that before work with that sound in that way in previous projects? Yes, a lot, but maybe it was, uh, even more specifically worked in Dimanche. And the process of storyboarding, is that also usual for your process?
17:41 That first you're going to sit down and really map it out visually like that? I think for Julie, yes. For us, with Siqueur, it was not so clear, because it depends on the shows we made. Sometimes it came more from improvisation, even though there was a theme and direction we wanted to take.
18:04 Maybe we worked at first a lot already on trying things. For my presentation and for Dimash, it was very necessary, because we talk about a very complex subject. When you improvise something, there is always something very interesting, and it complicates to choose what we follow and what we leave.
18:31 Because we had write a script and a scenario, it gives us a guide. Yeah, like limits. And so it was possible to improvise everything that gives us a very big freedom. Yeah, I guess my next question is about the evolution of your artistic practices.
18:57 As mentioned, both of your companies were started in 2009. I would love to hear about who you were as artists then compared to now. Also, maybe after this process, I'm curious if Julie, you're integrating more mime work and Santorini, you're integrating more puppets.
19:14 If this Dimash creative process has affected how you work in your future projects. Generally, I would love to hear about the evolution of your creative process, your interests. I think it's complicated to know that, because we are writing together a new show.
19:36 That's three right now. So yes, I feel that we always tried at each show to open on new or collaborations or new tools. So on a recent show, we worked a lot with circus, but on another show, we also worked a lot with object theater.
20:01 So it was also always something that was serving the dramaturgy and the story we wanted to tell to go and pick things that can bring the best image that serves the story. It's true that we had never, for example, done puppetry before, but it was very, yeah, it was very exciting to work on that with Judy and it's for sure the fact that we worked on Dimanche for the new show, there's something maybe more evidence than that is,
20:41 of course, that we experienced before. So, After it's difficult to always know how we change in our languages because there are so many influences, so many things that are also maturity in our time and work that changes, of course, the way that we that we avoid the creations.
21:05 But for Dimanche, it was the first time we worked together, the two companies. And so I think I really imagine a movie through the prism of the object because it's my formation. And finally, it's like in a bit too the usually, usually, there's some habits.
21:28 But when I it's interesting for me to have to have the body on the stage all the time, you know, because it's not evident for me, for example. But I really love it. And that brings a very poetry dimension.
21:50 But it's not evident for me, you know. And so I'm very enthusiastic and exciting to see another language and that brings me a lot. But I can explain more. That's great. Can you talk to us about the new project?
22:11 Oh, it's really the beginning. We're starting, we're just starting from the beginning of September. We started working on this new project. But we tried always a subject society through the prism of poetry.
22:25 And so that will be something like that. And we mix again, again, our different tools. But I say different, but finally, it's a mix of what we say. But the language, finally, will be very, I suppose, different from Dimanche.
22:45 because we we try to create something like a surprise for ourselves too and so we don't we really don't want to do exactly the same show but uh monday you know but we will do our best it's a surprise for us because we you can write a long time and finally at the end we discover our show and so it's oh okay that's it's that's okay wow yeah i think especially when you're working with the body um when you're not working with text i think there's um there's maybe even more space or i guess it depends how you're working with text but i feel like that that process of letting the work reveal itself you know or when you really get the bodies in space or the objects in space i suppose and you really start to understand them it's always a discovery when when the show finally is presented we also discover Yeah,
23:44 what we didn't especially think we were showing, but that reveals itself. Okay, well, we'll have to, we'll be excited to follow. For our sake, we'll hope that it's a faster process, but I really respect a long creative process as well.
23:59 Understand that, you know, that's, I'm sure that's why Dimanche is as strong as it is, because it's had that really rich process. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
24:12 Thank you very much. It's an absolute pleasure. When Heather Redford and I saw the work, so Heather is the director of The Cult and we're co-presenting this work in Vancouver. And when we saw the work in Edinburgh, we just got up and looked at each other right away.
24:27 And, you know, it was just this, this, just this total clarity with regard to what an impactful piece this is and how much we would love for our audiences to experience it. So we're just thrilled that it's finally happening.
24:42 Yeah. Thank you. We're thrilled as well. That was Julie Tenre and Sandrine Herro from Focus and Shaliwate Companies. Their work, Dimanche, will be presented with our friends at The Cult during the 20th International Performing Arts Festival on February 6th, 7th, and 8th at the Vancouver Playhouse.
25:05 Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charland. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
25:18 Coming up on the next Push Play. I think in a broad stroke, there's a lot of appropriation of these different cultures. And we want to go into those difficult and challenging subjects so that we can arrive to a place where we have a deeper understanding of each other. | |||
| 02 Dec 2024 | Ep. 42 - The Hermes Metaphor (Habitat) | 00:32:23 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Bettina Szabo of Petrikor Danse about Habitat, which will be presented at the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. Check out the show at the Scotiabank Dance Centre on January 28 and 29. Show Notes Gabrielle and Bettina discuss:
About Bettina Szabo Born in Uruguay, Bettina Szabo is a dancer and choreographer. Before she arrived in Montreal in 2007, she studied with Hebe Rosa (Uruguay), and Rami Be’er (Israel). She graduated from the École de danse contemporaine de Montréal (EDCM) in 2013, and obtained her BFA in Choreography at Concordia University (Montreal) in 2017. She has participated in many workshops with renowned artists such as Marie Chouinard, Dave St Pierre, Hildegard De Vyust, Guy Cools, Benoit Lachambre, and Clara Furey. In 2006, Bettina formed the collective Jeli-Mien, with whom she was awarded the emerging choreographer award given by the Ministry of Culture and Sports of Uruguay. She also performed for the Ballet de Camara de Montevideo (2004-2007), the KCDC (2010), the collective Interlope (2013-2014) and for Jason Cutler in 2019. She founded Petrikor Danse in 2016, which has allowed her to fully realize her multidisciplinary works mixing contemporary dance, music and visual arts. Bettina first created Noir=+ (2014) for dancer and vibraphone, and later presented Séquelles (2017), and Habitat (2020). Her work has been presented in Geneva, Paris, Lyon, Düsseldorf, Vienna, Seoul, Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto and Bilbao. She was invited on multiple occasions to work with musicians such as the Bakalari ensemble, the Architekt ensemble and composer Laurence Jobidon. She is a member of Diversité Artistique Montreal (DAM) and a former elected board member of the Quebec Dance association RQD). She actively fights for a more culturally diverse art scene in Montreal. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Bettina joined the conversation from what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg.. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's director of programming. Today's episode highlights multidisciplinary practice and the process of coming out of one's shell.
00:18 I'm speaking with Bettina Zabo, the lead artist behind Habitat, which is being presented at the Push Festival, January 28th and 29th, 2025. Born in Uruguay, Bettina Zabo is a dancer and choreographer living in Montreal since 2007.
00:34 As a dancer, she is interested in collaborative processes based on somatic explorations, and as a choreographer, her creations are interdisciplinary and marked by profound collaboration with music and visual arts.
00:47 Here is my conversation with Bettina. I just want to start by acknowledging the context from which I'm speaking to you. I am on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, so the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil -Waututh.
01:06 I'm a settler on these lands, and part of my commitment as a settler here is to engage in ongoing learning about what that means. And that looks like different things each day. Today, that looks like reflecting on Indigenous alternatives to climate risk assessment, and that is something that is supported by the Yellowhead Institute, which is just an incredible resource, educational resource.
01:32 So currently, I've just been reflecting on the exclusion of local and traditional knowledge and sustainable management practices with regard to climate assessment. And also, how this contributes to a view of climate change that's linear and a lack of engagement in shaping what future generations will inherit.
01:55 And I know that you are currently somewhere. different from where you're usually based. Can you share a bit about where your relationship to your place? Absolutely. So right now in Paris, I have two homes I live here, but also in Tuchague.
02:16 So Tuchague is a city land also known as Montreal or Mounyan and Nabi -Chawee, and it's an island that is traditionally a land for exchange for many First Nations and is guarded by the Kanyinkeha people, also known as Mohawk.
02:36 My relationship to the situation is quite weird because I didn't learn about the situation and the oppression that the First Nations live in Canada until after five years living in Canada. And yes, I am being accomplished through this settling, which is very uncomfortable because it's wasn't something we knew before immigrating.
03:03 So yeah, it's really, it's quite a hard situation to be perpetuating depression in such a passive aggressive way. But yes, so I try to be a Malay as much as I can. So I'm very glad to let you know that the name of Montreal is actually I'm going to jump right into talking about habitat.
03:27 So in the visual symphony of deep sea bioluminescence, an entrancing interaction with a seemingly sentient structure draws us into a hypnotic meditation on the search for home. And this structure is called Hermes or Hermes, Hermes, and this is the sculpture that you dance with in habitat.
03:50 Can you talk about, can you talk about it and the relevance of its metaphor for you? Of course. So Hermes has been my partner for the past six years. This sculpture was created by the wonderful Shasanda Rasp, who is a visual artist from Quebec.
04:10 She's not from Tijage. And yeah, like we met in 2016, she actually had exhibit a video of the sculpture movement while we were both studying at Concordia University. And through a production class, I tried to imitate it to make a costume.
04:32 And out of that exploration, the interest was very high. And also like I really liked the very first prototype I did, trying to not copy the sculpture. But yeah, somehow it gave me the courage to reach out to her and ask her if she would like to collaborate.
04:48 We had never spoken to each other. So it was quite took a lot of courage to be honest. And I happened to contact her apparently in the moment that she was looking for a dancer to make the sculpture move.
05:02 So she took around one year to build Hermes. It's made out of Abaca fiber. She actually did the paper by hand, cut it and assembled the sculpture that the one that it weren't going to be dancing a push is made of 800 paper cones and they all articulate.
05:22 And yeah, it took for making that iteration, it took around five months of work between making the paper, cutting and assembling the sculpture. And what drew you to the sculpture when you first thought, why did you want to reach out to her?
05:38 Well, I found it super hypnotic. It was like in slow motion. It really looked like a pot of fish moving around and it was wonderful. It was really beautiful. And at the time of Studio 303, there was a, there was a platform called Metamorphose where they invited visual artists.
05:57 of the costume makers to collaborate with performing artists. So I proposed to her that we apply and we got in and that's how we started working. And I did have my very first vacation to Cuba and I saw handmade crafts and I was like, oh, that's the excuse because I was like, what am I going to use as an excuse to get in relationship with this sculpture, other than it's just wonderful.
06:20 I like the honesty of excuse. It was really like, okay, how can I just say that I'm going to work with this, other than like, this is just cool. It was really, and also like, I really like to do work that has a subject that has a story behind.
06:41 So like, it was very important for me. There wasn't just an anesthetic exploration, let's say. So it all started with the hermit crab. And at the time, the Pacific Ocean had just started to increase the temperature.
06:58 And there were massive deaths of fish in the coast of Chile. I grew up by the ocean. And one of the things that I did as I get with my parents was volunteer in a, gosh, I'm having a blank with the names, in a rescue, in a refuge for sea animals.
07:23 So seeing this massive deaths of fish and whales was really heartbreaking for me. And we were just starting to talk about bioplastics and their effects on animals and like us eating them and all this stuff.
07:40 This was back in 2016, 15. Anyway, so that was the very first inspiration and reason why to get into the sculpture with it. But yeah, it was later on, but then like the other immigration discourse came in.
08:00 It was much later. But yeah, the sculpture the right now like the metaphor that it represents for me is more Canada and like its opportunities and like it's more about like the idealized place of migration because yeah obviously I think that like anyone that immigrates anywhere has idealized the hosting place like this.
08:22 Nothing that can actually prepare you to actually migrating and you choose it because you think it's better and it's definitely something that is better than your situation and that it is idealized. So yeah when I did that costume people were like oh like I had made a lot of origami paper cones and put them on a pair of pantyhose.
08:49 I made a hole to make a head and make a sweater and I got some lights from Dolorama. and I didn't know they changed color and it was great because like I just put in a friend was like just move slowly close all the lights put just that and people were like oh my god look like Aurora Morales on glaciers and I was like so yeah that's one of the big images that do come back today on the piece but this idea of coming from South America from a country has no snow the glacier and Canada did seem logical to me as a as a relation yeah and hermit crabs they don't have their own shell is that what's unique about that yeah yeah so they don't have a shell and they change off shell as they grow if you look online it's really funny you can see like um hermit crabs moving and you'll see like a row of hermit crabs so a very big one needs to change the shell so it's a whole bunch are lining up behind him to catch the shell that is left over is almost like Montreal on July 1st everybody's moving yeah they don't have a shell they are very protective they have kind of they have a tail that curls up inside the shell or whatever they find to protect their living organs and uh yeah apparently like they're you can tear a hermit crab apart if you try to rip it off his home actually yeah you describe habitat as a multi -disciplinary solo with significant dramaturgical weight attributed to sound movement and sculpture can you speak to your trajectory with form over your career as an artist yeah so um relating a bit also to the next answer so the beginning approach was very aesthetic and then once i started working inside the sculptures when the real theme of the piece came out um uh the particular thing about working with Hermes is that I mean I decided to make a solo because I wanted to finish school having a solo and like something to present my the way I work or like what I like to do let's say.
11:09 And also when you make a solo engineer is to put yourself in value as a great performer and then when I started exploring with Hermes it was like a giant struck to my ego because the most interesting thing was to disappear.
11:24 It was to not be there to be hiding behind the sculpture and while being inside the sculpture like I really have my head down I'm in all weird positions just to try to fit in and that just brought up the cellular memory of the first to fit in or trying things out how I could behave like entire phenomenon that was going on between me and the sculpture, this thing of having to disappear, having to be very uncomfortable,
12:02 yet it looks wonderful from outside. You know, like I will go back to Uruguay and I was like, well, I'm cleaning windows for 30 bucks an hour. And it's like, well, but you're playing a plane ticket. That's wonderful.
12:15 Which I mean, yes, it was great money. I mean, it was all this weird things that that happened. So yeah, like that's when the real theme of the piece came out. And also during that time, I when I when I studied, I actually when I moved to Canada, I went to Concordia University, then stopped Concordia, went, did an intensive training in Israel, in the north of Israel with Kibbutz -Gaton.
12:44 And then after that, I went back and did LADMI at the time, which today is the EDCM. And after I finished, I decided to go back to university to finish my degree. All this to say is that when I moved to Canada, I was English speaker.
13:02 So I was speaking English at Concordia, but there's no thoughtful exam that prepares you to actually go into school in English. It's really tough. Then I was in a completely Francophone environment for three years.
13:15 And then I went back to the Anglophone environment, and it was somehow more comfortable. And being in that environment and being in university, we started talking about the colonization. I mean, we weren't talking about the colonization yet.
13:28 But I did at least became more aware of like the situation with First Nations. And but I did also became very self aware of my internal colonization, because I'm a white passing person. I'm like, well, I'm not with blonde hair, but like, I'm Caucasian.
13:47 My descendants is Italian and Eastern European. My parents are both European and born in Europe. way, like my grandparents too. But yes, we have this thing of always thinking that it's not as good as it is in Europe.
14:06 And I had this speech when I moved to Canada, where I would say like, oh, I'm from Uruguay, but it's the most European countries of America, what level of education is this? It's like I had like a discourse that was basically saying, I'm white like you.
14:24 And it was at the time I was creating habitat that I realized that that's what I was doing. And started questioning it, seeing what belonged to me, what didn't, how to take it out, or and yes, it was the process of many years.
14:40 So regarding going back to the interdisciplinary part, I would say that at the time I also had started meeting with people in contemporary music and I had tried some live electronics. So yeah, it was like a great way of like amplifying the interpretation and well also like because of the hermit crabs and also because I'm born and raised like two blocks away from the ocean.
15:09 So like for me making it like with a sea theme to it was super natural. And yeah, like in terms of all of the other mediums, they're all being directed. Like I'll say that I'm artistic director of the overall thing, though Hermes was already the way it was.
15:31 There's like the only change, there's no artistic direction I have given regarding it. It's only just a bit bigger, so my torso would fit. So I wouldn't consider that artistic direction. But in terms of the music, yes, there was collaboration with the composers.
15:46 We were exploring together, doing all kinds of sounds. I was exploring all vocalizations possible. And you have an experience in exploring sound spatialization from a very young age. Yes, yes, yes, because and then because it's a thing habitat is a project that took like six years to really like were being born.
16:12 Like the very first iteration was in 2016. Then there was the second one in 2020. And then the full piece that you guys are going to experience wasn't premier until 2022. But in between all of that, I was able to find the right collaborators to make the vision that I wanted happen.
16:33 So it was in 2019 that I started working with the sound spatialization that is something that I knew we could do. And it was this idea of like bringing the people in this culture with me. So I was telling you before a conversation that as a kid, I got exposed to the idea of sense specialization when I was in elementary school, because my dad works with that kind of technology doing adaptation of software for visually impaired people.
17:05 So in 2019, I met a technician like a scientist that creates software for sense specialization. So then it added an extra layer onto the, not only onto the, how we use the space, but also regarding the way we conceive the composition of the work, because during with Habitat, like I have live effects that are done on my voice.
17:34 So this specialization is allowing us to specialize in different speakers, which sound comes from which side. So though I'm alone, it sounds like I'm there with a whole bunch of. friends, little other creatures.
17:50 And it really gives that we give a surround system. And yeah, the first thing we presented it was with 13 speakers. But yeah, it can go very far. So yeah, that's with the sound specialization and then regarding the costume.
18:06 So Hermes is the sculpture is my partner, but then I also have a costume that has the lighting embedded on it. And that's also another thing that it took years of the technology to actually catch up with what I wanted to do.
18:22 Because I now I'm able to do the auralis effect because at the beginning was just fairy lights. Then now we have special LED lights that we can program. And I can do the cues of light. So and you do all the cues yourself in Yeah, Hermes.
18:39 Yes, I have them. I have two Arduino boards on my belly. And I had to push push buttons and turn them on and off. Yeah, it was like the very first iteration, it was like a look like very pregnant crab, like I had like six different battery packs.
18:58 And now we were able to make it a lot more ergonomic and comfortable to work with. And ecological as well, too, because the amount of double A batteries I was consuming was ridiculous. So yeah, all of these things were over the years, you know, one thing came after the other and allowed me to, to push the dramaturgy further.
19:21 And this research is really embedded in your teaching practice, too, because I know that you offer workshops for, for folks of all ages, for general public, also for dance artists, which really, in my interpretation of it gives folks the tools to have creative agency and really explore with a range of different mediums.
19:42 So yeah, these workshops are really integrated into your practice. and which is a work that you describe as cultural mediation. And can you define what cultural mediation means in the context of your work and your key experiences, why this is important to you?
19:58 Well, I think that the word cultural mediation, I use it just because it's a literal translation as to what we say in French. But yeah, I think like, so regarding workshops in general, like the transdisciplinary workshops that I give is more of like just there, go and try it.
20:17 Which is something that I didn't at the beginning. And then I was like, ah, I'm kind of half making it. And then finally we have this thing going on and it's actually working. So it's more about like there to try and to touch other.
20:31 substances they'll say, other mediums, because even if it's not yourself that is going to take care of that medium, it's important for me it's super important to know the very basics so I can have a better level of conversation with my collaborators and find the right collaborator for the work I need to do.
20:50 With the workshops that I do with Habitat, it's just I literally do what I did for that costume in university. So it all started with fairy lights from Dolorama, cooking paper, and Origami is then a pair of pantyhose.
21:09 So it's just like to bring it down to earth, like right now it sounds like a very complex multidisciplinary technology, Arduino is this that well it started really with fairy lights and pantyhose and cooking paper.
21:22 Like it's bringing it down to earth and make it and demystifying the artistic process. And this is something that you speak about in the context of Petre -Cordance's vision and Petre -Cordance being your company, which is to democratize art by combining different art forms and investigating socially engaged subjects.
21:45 So we'll look at your in the context of your new work Cunha, which is based on the phenomenon of internalized misogyny of women. Can you talk about that relationship between form and subject matter in your wider practice?
21:59 Yeah, so I'm very happy to have found some kind of like recipe or practice. Yeah, you can give it which earning me, but like I cannot have like a little protocol that I have developed that I called moving subconscious.
22:17 With moving subconscious, I've been able to help myself embody theoretical concepts. So I used a meditation process, scanning the body with lots of detail, also on the side of my elementary job at the time was massage therapy.
22:47 So, and I'm a big nerd about anatomy, I love anatomy. So like this meditations really go through a very thorough body scanning, and then I bring in the information of the subject that we're gonna work.
23:00 So in the case of Cunha, this piece was like after many years of reflection and realizing like internal dialogues that I have regarding judging myself or other women and coming from a very patriarchal country to then being in Canada and being like, oh, I don't have to insult this thing that badly of this lady has a very short skirt because she's not putting herself in danger or anything like that.
23:25 Or like where did that came from? Because anyways, she looks great. Thank you. So like, who am I to judge? Anyway, so all of this came up. So what happened with Cunha, for example, it will go. So I decided to subdivide a piece in the different life stages of women.
23:45 I did a survey while I was in school because for me, the planting of this internalized misogyny starts in childhood. It's when the very first time when you're taught to not do something because you're a girl, because you're putting yourself in danger.
24:07 In my case, it was you kind of climb up trees because you're a girl. So we're like, I couldn't, and especially it was because I was wearing a skirt. So I couldn't go up the trees and all that, right?
24:19 And so I did a big survey asking people what they couldn't do as a girl when they were kids. And if they had a piece of advisors that they could erase of their life, where would it be? And the answers were super rich.
24:35 So moving subconscious is a method that is helping me combine theoretical concepts, ideas, or memories, and embed them on the body. So in the case of Cunha with my ancestors, for example, we did explorations of administration.
24:53 I had done lots of research. I found drawings of menstruating uteruses online. So we discussed about it, like the pains, whatever we had. We found drawings that we could have a relation regarding their period.
25:11 So then after that, after a good three -hour discussion and how periods are viewed in society, et cetera, I invite them to do the meditation process. And they're invited to choose themselves and memory that is related to that.
25:28 And through the meditation, I make them. bring back the memory, imagine like in detail how the word dresser, like what are the colors of the area where they are, like all of that, and then scan the body to see if there's any physical reaction, if there's any sensation that is growing from anywhere and how it's growing, and then as we continue the process like where they write a bit, we take pauses and we go back in,
25:53 I make those sensations increase to the point of bringing them into movement, and this raw movement, then they get to do a phrase, we record it, but I'm filming everything throughout the entire thing, I have tons of hours of video to watch, yes, but then they get to choose like do like a little phrase of what they want from that, and then that becomes the base material with which I do my choreographic writing,
26:23 so for instance, once somebody was dancing with her fallopian tubes, and her hands were the ovaries, the fallopian tubes were the arms, and I saw a different image, so I was like in terms of like doing the choreographic work or like what I call the choreographic writing, it's like I will play more with like saturation, repetition, orientation, like okay, something that was standing, it would go on the floor,
26:51 change the phrase to become something that is jumping to change a bit the dynamics, because it's true that like with this process of creation, a lot of the stuff, because often we start on the ground, then all the material is on the ground, so I had to find a way to bring it up and change it a bit around, so my being subconscious is now something that I've been practicing for seven years and have been using it in different subjects and with different people,
27:20 and it has always, it still fascinates me. I find it super powerful because a lot of the time all this imagery, it doesn't only bring like a very particular kind of movement, but also like it gives you, sometimes it gives you a crazy stability, like people are capable of doing things with their body that normally they wouldn't, but because on the imagination it's like okay, there's a fallopian tube doing that,
27:45 then it works. It is a very powerful tool that brings, the interpreters are in a meditative state, and it makes it super super strong, so yes, I'm not bored of it obviously, and I really enjoy using it, yeah.
28:05 Yeah, it sounds very rich and very responsive to the people in the room as well. So I'm hearing the cohesion or the continuity in terms of process for you currently, at least in your current projects, I'm wondering if there are recurring dramaturgic elements or social thedians as well within your work, Or if the through line is really about process right now and each project is totally unique in terms of integration of form and the subject matter explored.
28:41 So, as I said, moving subconscious is a common factor for sure and also like, it becomes as well, a source of raw material also for sound and for image and the environment that we may create for a piece.
28:57 In terms of subject matters, I think that like definitely womanhood is something like this in the like the situation of women in society is something that is marking my pieces lately. I mean, for Konya, one of the tableaus is menopause, which is now turning into its own creation.
29:19 This is called Helichrist. It's going to be an installation. And in terms of aesthetics, I would say like I. I have finally kind of like found my realm but like yeah from the beginning I like the idea of using surrealistic worlds or like what I call magical realistic worlds to talk about society because I think that we're a lot more porous when we're talking about like magic lens to talk about reality rather than using reality to criticize reality I think that I can bring it allows people to be more open -minded or like question things a bit further and as a South American I've been exposed to magical realism since I'm a kid.
30:08 I read those books since I'm very young so it's just natural for me it's just like intuitively what comes out so in general a lot of the times when I'm seeing this improvisations I see animals I see plants and I look into making those more obvious for other people so I guess that those are yeah definitely those in terms of if we're talking about dramaturgy those are late motifs that I can see however I think it's a bit early to name a lot because there's not that many creations that I have behind me so we'll be able to tell later yeah to be continued in a future conversation.
30:52 Wonderful thank you so much Bettina I find your process fascinating I love habitat you know it was a totally transformative or transporting experience both when I saw the work in Edinburgh a couple years ago and I'm just so thrilled that we're finally able to bring it to Vancouver.
31:12 That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Bettina Zabo of Petri Corradance and the work Habitat which will be presented during the 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival taking place in Vancouver BC from January 23rd to February 9th.
31:28 Habitat will be presented at the Scotiabank Dance Center on January 28 and 29. For more information on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival .ca.
31:47 Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charlin. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
32:00 Coming up on the next Push Play. So there was so much about my culture that I shut down and really like put away, you know, like never never wanted to really be too Filipino. Working on this has really been a journey of reclamation, not only of language, but of culture. | |||
| 14 Dec 2023 | Ep. 11 - BLOT (Body Line of Thought): performing microbiology | 00:44:31 | |
Vanessa Goodman and Simona Deaconescu chat about their show, BLOT - Body Line of Thought, which will be presented at the 2024 PuSh Festival from January 22-23 at Left of Main. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Vanessa Goodman and Simona Deaconescu about their show, BLOT (Body Line of Thought). They discuss how this unconventional performance developed through installations and iterations, the body as microbiological being, and the role of “bio-friction” in their show. They also discuss:
About Vanessa Goodman Vanessa Goodman respectfully acknowledges that she lives, works and creates on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Coast Salish peoples. She holds a BFA from Simon Fraser University and is the artistic director of Action at a Distance Dance Society. Vanessa is attracted to art that has a weight and meaning beyond the purely aesthetic and uses her choreography as an opportunity to explore the human condition. Her choreographic practice is driven by weaving generative movement and audio into performative environments. Her work creates a sense of intimacy between our surroundings and the body. She has received several awards and honours, including The Iris Garland Emerging Choreographer Award (2013); The Yulanda M. Faris Scholarship (2017/18); The Chrystal Dance Prize (2019); The Schultz Endowment from Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity (2019); and the “Space to Fail” program (2019/20) in New Zealand, Australia and Vancouver. Her work has toured Canada, The United States, Europe and South America. Recent collaborations include Graveyards and Gardens with Caroline Shaw and BLOT with Simona Deaconsecu. About Simona Deaconsecu Working across genres and formats, Simona Deaconescu examines social constructs, at the border of fiction and objective reality, sometimes with irony and dark humor. Her work explores future scenarios of the body, creating spaces in which nature, history, and technology meet, and the notion of choreography extends beyond the human body. Simona Deaconescu holds a BA and a MA in Choreography from The National University of Theatre and Film Bucharest and a BA in Film Directing from Media University Romania. In 2014, she founded Tangaj Collective, an organization that works with transdisciplinary artists and researchers. In 2015, she became the co-founder and artistic director of the Bucharest International Dance Film Festival. In 2016, she received the CNDB – National Centre for Dance Award for her contribution brought to Romanian contemporary dance. Over the years, she developed part of her projects in collaboration with CNDB, and in 2022 she became an Associated Artist of the center. Developing artworks greatly influenced by science, she was supported by European Projects based on research and interdisciplinarity, such as Moving Digits and Biofriction. In 2018 and 2022, she was nominated as an Aerowaves Artist with her works Counterbody and Choreomaniacs. Land Acknowledgement Vanessa joins the podcast from Mi'kma'k territory in Nova Scotia, where the African Nova Scotian community helped build much of the existing infrastructure. Simona joins from Bucharest, Romania. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon. | |||
| 09 Jul 2024 | Ep. 19 - The Beginning of PuSh (2005) | 00:19:47 | |
Gabrielle chats about the early beginnings of PuSh with Camyar Chaichian, who helped create one of the shows from the first festival in 2005. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin and Camyar Chaichian (Neworld) talk about:
About Camyar Actor, director, writer and producer, born in 1968 in Iran, and raised there and in England and the United States. His family moved to North Vancouver British Columbia in 1980, when he was 11 years old. He graduated from the University of British Columbia (Acting, 1992; M.F.A., 2007), and currently lives in Vancouver. In 1993 he founded Neworld Theatre in Vancouver which produced the site specific collective Devil Box Cabaret (1999), based on Four Boxes by Iranian author Bahram Beyzaee; and an adaptation of Crime and Punishment by James Fagan Tait; and the cult hit that propelled its own company, The Leaky Heaven Circus 1999-2002). He served as Artistic Producer at Neworld until 2007. He wrote and performed in I Am Your Spy: A Day In The Life of Mordechai Vanunu with Rumble Theatre. This production toured to Calgary, Montreal, and Toronto in January, 2001. His adaptation of Quest, Trail of Mystic Poets, Rummi and Attar was produced at the Vancouver East Cultural Centre. He co-authored Hurl Hemmhorage and Heal, the Nurses Musical, which toured for the British Columbia Nurses Union. His other plays include The Adventures of Ali & Ali and the Axes of Evil (Neworld Theatre and Cahoots Theatre Projects 2004) created with Guillermo Verdecchia and Marcus Youssef), published by Talonbooks; The Asylum of the Universe (Neworld Theatre 2003), published in Canadian Theatre Review 116 (Fall 2003); and Ali & Ali: The Deportation Hearings with Verdecchia and Youssef (Neworld 2010). He returned to Neworld in 2016 for the twentieth anniversary of the theatre with a production entitled "Doost" (which means "friend" in Persian) that combines narrative, music and poetry to express his Sufi faith and its concepts of friendship and community. In April 2019, his adaptation of Shakespeare's Richard III, entitled King Richard and His Women, was performed at Seven Tyrants Theatre, with Chai as director and scenographer. As Richard lies dying on the battlefield, he is haunted by the women he has loved, hated, and destroyed. Camyar Chai has also written two librettos, Rosa and Elijah’s Kite for Tapestry New Opera in Toronto. For the CBC he has written and broadcast sketches and commentaries. He has received a Jessie Richardson Awards for his writing. As a director, he has worked for New Works, Touchstone Theatre, La Luna Productions and the Solo Collective Theatre. He received The Ray Michael Award for Most Promising New Director in 1999. As an actor, he has worked for many Canadian companies including Vancouver Playhouse, Arts Club Theatre, Touchstone Theatre, Rumble Productions and Green Thumb Theatre for Young People, as well as appearing in many film and television productions. He has received a Jessie Richardson Award for his acting. Camyar Chai is currently Program Manager, Community Cultural Development at the City of Richmond. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:20 Gabrielle Martin 00:33 Gabrielle Martin 00:56 Gabrielle Martin 01:01 Gabrielle Martin 01:18 Gabrielle Martin 01:37 Camyar Chaichian 01:52 Camyar Chaichian 02:17 Camyar Chaichian 02:37 Camyar Chaichian 03:00 Camyar Chaichian 03:23 Gabrielle Martin 03:39 Camyar Chaichian 03:49 Camyar Chaichian 04:02 Camyar Chaichian 04:13 Camyar Chaichian 04:25 Camyar Chaichian 04:40 Gabrielle Martin 04:48 Camyar Chaichian 04:57 Camyar Chaichian 05:17 Camyar Chaichian 05:31 Camyar Chaichian 05:44 Camyar Chaichian 05:59 Camyar Chaichian 06:13 Gabrielle Martin 06:24 Gabrielle Martin 06:41 Camyar Chaichian 06:50 Camyar Chaichian 07:09 Camyar Chaichian 07:24 Camyar Chaichian 07:46 Gabrielle Martin 07:55 Camyar Chaichian 08:08 Camyar Chaichian 08:24 Camyar Chaichian 08:41 Gabrielle Martin 08:44 Gabrielle Martin 08:55 Camyar Chaichian 08:56 Camyar Chaichian 09:19 Camyar Chaichian 09:33 Camyar Chaichian 09:46 Camyar Chaichian 10:12 Camyar Chaichian 10:31 Camyar Chaichian 10:46 Camyar Chaichian 11:01 Camyar Chaichian 11:21 Camyar Chaichian 11:36 Gabrielle Martin 11:45 Camyar Chaichian 11:51 Gabrielle Martin 14:12 Camyar Chaichian 14:18 Camyar Chaichian 14:29 Camyar Chaichian 14:42 Camyar Chaichian 14:58 Camyar Chaichian 15:11 Gabrielle Martin 15:13 Camyar Chaichian 15:20 Gabrielle Martin 15:26 Gabrielle Martin 15:44 Camyar Chaichian 15:59 Camyar Chaichian 16:17 Camyar Chaichian 16:36 Camyar Chaichian 16:51 Camyar Chaichian 17:16 Camyar Chaichian 17:32 Camyar Chaichian 17:51 Camyar Chaichian 18:09 Gabrielle Martin 18:24 Camyar Chaichian 18:32 Ben Charland 18:41 Ben Charland 18:57 Ben Charland 19:16
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| 11 Dec 2023 | Ep. 10 - because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude we all have it): bridging artistic traditions | 00:32:36 | |
Rakesh Sukesh discusses bringing Indian dance traditions to a European performing arts context. Show Notes Listen to Gabrielle Martin in conversation with Rakesh Sukesh about his show, because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it). Gabrielle and Rakesh discuss topics including the philosophy of creating and moving through chaos, whether practice can be a source of healing, and the process of coming with an Indian passport to the rest of the world as an artist. Co-presented by Indian Summer Festival and The Cultch. Gabrielle and Rakesh ask the following questions and more:
About Rakesh Sukesh Born in Kerala, India, Rakesh was introduced to yogic principles and practices early on, setting the stage for his transformative journey. Dance unexpectedly entered his life at the age of 15 when he began as a Bollywood dancer in local productions. In 2003, Rakesh joined Attakkalari India, marking a significant shift in his trajectory. In 2014, he became a certified yoga teacher through the esteemed Shivananda Vedanta Centre, a step that deepened his understanding of movement and holistic well-being. Over the past 14 years, Rakesh has dedicated himself to researching a movement method known as the IntAct-Method. This practical fusion of Kalarippayattu, contemporary movement, and yogic philosophy has gained recognition in reputable institutions worldwide. Rakesh has taken a hands-on approach in creating over thirteen dance pieces, each with its own distinct purpose. Currently, his focus is on developing a solo performance because i love the diversity (this micro attitude, we all have it), scheduled to debut at the PuSh Festival in 2024. In 2020, Rakesh co-founded and assumed a leadership role at Sanskar, a global performing arts platform. This pragmatic initiative aims to foster growth and collaboration, especially in India and abroad. Land Acknowledgement Rakesh joins the podcast from Brussels, Belgium. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, PuSh's Director of programming. And today's episode highlights the philosophy of moving and creating through chaos. I'm speaking with Rakesh Sukesh, choreographer and performer of because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it) a PuSh festival commission which will be presented at PuSh Festival January 22nd to 24th 2024. In because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it) Rakesh embodies the chaos of an unjust society, finding humour in the confusions and contradictions. Born in Kerala, India, Dance unexpectedly entered Rakesh's life at the age of 15, when he began as a Bollywood dancer in local productions. Since then, Rakesh has created numerous dance works and dedicated himself to researching a movement method known as Intact Method, a practical fusion of Kalari Pieta, contemporary movement and Yogic philosophy. I'm honoured to share a discussion that looks at the collaboration and exploration of form behind because I love the diversity. Here's my conversation with Rakesh.
Gabrielle [00:01:15] Hi Rakesh. Welcome. Thank you for taking this time to chat with me a bit about your process and the project, because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it)
Rakesh [00:01:24] My pleasure to be here, definitely. Definitely pleasure to talk about it.
Gabrielle [00:01:28] Thank you. And I just want to start out by acknowledging that I am speaking with you from the unceded stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh).It's an absolute privilege for me to be here, for me to be working here, for PuSh to be doing its work here. Would you mind just letting us know where you're speaking to me from?
Rakesh [00:01:53] Yeah. Right now I live in Belgium. Since last five years. And Brussels has been my base. And it's a great place to be as an artist and and as a as a foreign artist it's, it's a very welcoming community and and it's a great place to develop yourself and and share your work. And that's where I am now, right now.
Gabrielle [00:02:17] You are an established international performer, sought after educator. And because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it) is your first solo, evening length choreographic work, and I'm curious what compelled you to undertake this project at this point in your career and how your practice up until this point shows itself in the content of the piece?
Rakesh [00:02:43] First of all, about this being my first full length solo performance, I have done a short a piece with me a long, long time ago, and I remember kind of struggling through the process because it's quite a lonely, depressing journey when you go into a studio. And I told myself, No, I'm going to step out of this and I rather prefer to collaborate with the artist or create on somebody else. But considering what this topic of the piece talks about, which is the aggressions and microaggressions per se, which is the racism and expectation of society and and where I come from and where I am now. And over the years, it's kind of a baggage that you start to carry on you. And then it came to a point where there was intense threshold to to to put it out there into into the space. And one of the... I mean, my work, my teaching is is inspired by my culture a lot and which is there and in my culture and anywhere you go, we always speak in a holistic way. We never really separate body or ideology or or a space that you live in time, your live in memory that you have it somehow. We embrace everything all the time. And that's all in my in my teaching. Well, what I propose is it's kind of an interconnected practice where I'm a dance teacher, I'm a movement pedagogue, but I'm drawing and through movement how we can research and understand or express our different aspects of ourselves. And so by saying so, I realised that the fact that I carry all this information or another synonym is karma Indian maybe call it, which is that the baggage that we have and how, how it's defined me right now in this, in this moment, which is that the experience that we gathered and what do you do in the moment governs what's going to be for yourself within you and also the environment you live in. So kind of having these experiences in my personal life and the questions and and wanting to understand these questions through a research, which is my practice also, and, and trying to go through a journey and to see what I find in that journey and, and eventually to see how I can convert that those experiences into a piece of art. And this is what we research in my practice, how to convert things into a piece of art. And that could be coming from something physical and mental, emotional and psychological. And so the kind of my practice is became my my source of healing, let's say, and source of discovery, a source of expression, way of expression. So so then I said, okay, after 12 years, it's time to do a solo again. It's time to tell a story again. So that's how I start this process.
Gabrielle [00:06:20] So you're working with award winning Canadian playwright Marcus Youssef for this project, and can you talk about that collaboration, the decision to work with text, how the text has been developed, how the collaboration has influenced your practice?
Rakesh [00:06:35] Well, I have I have not met Marcus in person up till until very recently. The beginning I got introduced by you PuSh Festival and by the moment I saw his body of work. And intuitively felt like, I feel like there is something about this artist and and I like the way he he how he approaches topic and how he identifies the topic within him and and and analysing and arguing that the the topic or thematic within himself. And I like this approach of you take something and then you find yourself with that idea and trying to yeah to to understand what is this idea means and how you see that out. And I like this approach of him. And so yeah, we, we matched and we somehow we said yeah, we like each other, you know, online. And we started the process in the beginning. I have no idea. I just had this vision of creating this piece that I just don't wanted it to be a dance piece. I wanted it to have kind of a aesthetic of kind of a lecture performance, dance, storytelling, and kind of like a collusion of all this different world to me together. So when I spoke to him about it in the in the initial days, we just he just asked me questions and he asked me to speak about my experiences. So I spoke about, you know, certain racist issues that I've confronted and being in Europe and dealing with different kind of aggression in the art world and expectation from the art world and you me being from India. What do you expect of and how much is expected of? They say that like, Oh, we are very open for diversity. Please come and share your information. But up to a certain point, not more than that. And but share any information to be like this is not the way that you that you would share it in India. So there's a lot of like a different kind of tonality to kind of life that I'm navigating. So I start to speak a lot of experiences and, and also referring to other stories, other people's stories. And that's what I do very often when I go to create a space, I try to pull references of other books or events or stuff. I was amused and challenged by Marcus is that he directed the entire research on me, putting me as the protagonist and and going through these stories that to me, I spoke and creating this character, which is Rakesh, who was an artist became fascinated about being in the Western world, navigating his life as an artist and at the same time, outside in the real world, in Western world, things are very different than how experiencing in the art world and also art world itself how absurd sometimes you are, you are called upon to a certain places to share your practice and sometimes for the same reason you're not welcomed. And so it's kind of like creating a storyline of this, this artist Rakesh Sukesh and going through this, this arc of his life episodes of his life and also his inner, you know, questions and problems that is confronted and also reflecting on his own culture. He comes from, okay, I am I'm in this world and navigating with all these different problems. I would like to go back to my country, but my country has also has problem. It preaches yoga, it preaches. We are very old culture and great, but we also have problem of caste issues and difference between male and female and arranged marriage and how how you are measured in the society. The darker you are and the value of yourself goes down. And and meanwhile, it also talks about yoga and spiritualities. And so so this character kind of kind of gets stuck between this world and the trying to figure out these problems. And and so hence, like all the stories that I was saying became the text of the piece. I don't want to say more about it because I also want people to experience the piece. So I will just stop at that.
Gabrielle [00:11:24] As a choreographer, when you're creating a work and you're creating the dramaturgy and the the kind of codes through which you convey the intention behind the work, that can be quite different than when you're working with a text. And it's the there's this narrative dramaturgy. And often that that process of meaning making or where the focus goes can be different. Have you found it to be really pretty organic? Has it been? Yeah. I'm just curious if there's anything more to say about that.
Rakesh [00:11:59] That's the exciting part for me in this process is that the development of this piece became very natural for me. And it's because I have Marcus who's creating this fantastic dramaturgy in the text wise. And also I have another collaborator, Alessia Luna Wyes, who's who's Italian, who's based now in Belgium, and she's focusing on more from movement, dramaturgy and aesthetic from a dance point of view and the fact that the piece focussed on me, the character, and hence me wanting to say the story verbally and also the physicality that I have. And also we are questioning me being this Indian artist, creating a piece in the Western world for the Western public. How is it being perceived? Or when I do a certain movement, let's say if I say a story and I'm doing a movement. Moving and dancing with that story. Immediately there's a judgment from the audience saying like, this story this way we're not sure and or yes, we like it because it has something exotic, but this one we're not sure. Maybe it's a bit too much. So kind of like taking that into the piece that that into the dramaturgy like, oh, that's the problem we're talking about. And so hence the whole, the whole journey of the development became very organic, I would say. I don't think I found very difficult to define the, the, the synergy between the body dance and the text. And also it goes back again to my my practice in the room where I am teaching. I'm sharing verbally, while I'm also able to express that physically, somehow. So we use that as the essence as part of the whole development of the project.
Gabrielle [00:14:03] Yes, I remember. I remember that from having taken a workshop with you, which was incredible, which was also my introduction to you and your work and the storytelling that was part of your teaching practice and that was so compelling and just as inspiring as your physical demonstration of movement propositions. I want to talk a bit more about your teaching practice. You've developed the Enact Method, moving through chaos, and can you describe this method which you've spoken about a bit, but also the process of its development and the relationship between moving through chaos and because I love. Is there a relationship? And if yes, what is it?
Rakesh [00:14:45] Yeah, I would say yes. There is a relationship to give a kind of back story of my research. This is a practice that I propose. I call it modern research. Before I would say I would teach this technique. But now it became a more research space. And before when I was teaching, I was teaching very clear methods that come from my culture. I was teaching a martial art form which is called Kalaripayattu and using the, the physical preparation that they do in this martial art and which has a lot of inspiration from animals and how to use the human somatics in that in an organic and a healthy way where we can keep exploring the boundaries and and what to our city of the physicality. Because in martial art it's about efficiency. You are able you should train yourself to deal with an intense environment while you being calm to understand the environment. So and I was using that as a as a starting point and I was teaching it. And meanwhile, I am very much inclined to yogic principles because it's also my family's kind of loosely there are busy with it. Also my parents are, you know, they're very much into yoga and philosophy and stuff. So I grew up in that. Of course, as a as a child, as a teenager, I was not really caring for it. You know, my fascination was to come to the into the Western world. And I arrived. And then I reflect on my own culture and the ancient discoveries. And then you look at the modern science and neuroscience and and they all talk about how the human development , where is the human development. And somehow it's all kind of like, call me back to the whole yoga principles, the practice that you have developed. Marriage is about the human enhancement eventually. And so I start to, you know, start going more deeper into that. And I do teach this training. And for myself, I don't want to become a yoga teacher, but rather going to an intense process to understand it and but draw all principles and philosophies from yoga and put that into mind is this research that I have been doing. And in India we have this usually in ancient time before we had the Western education system. And normally you study under a teacher for 12 years. And that method is called Gurukula system where you're studying at teacher's house for 12 years. And after 12 years, ideally, you're done with their education. And then you go and live with that information that your teacher gave and you see what life teaches you with that with that information. So the previous practice that I was teaching after 12 years, I said, okay, I need to change it. I need to reset into something new. And then I start calling an intact method, which is that to to keep an idea together or if something is wrong, you fix it. It's kind of a synonym. And also arriving it was also the time of Covid and worst time of all the different problems in my life was I was going through. Then I realised this. Well, there's so much chaos that we we are facing in life, right. Then for me, the focus become right now the chapter that I do is breath power of breath. And for me I realise breath is a it's like the inner root. Of ourselves. It's like the tree. So the deeper, the calmer, or the proper you breathe, the more resilient you become. And so bringing the power of breath and dealing with the different natures of us body, mind, spirit, spirit, whatever the environment and past and future. And how do you navigate all those different aspects? By keeping the breath as the core. So hence, like now it become a more research practice. When I'm proposing tools for the practitioners and everybody takes the tool and they are all working together in the studio. Of course, the tool provokes different experience in each and everybody, so I cannot access that experience to say, This is what I'm teaching you. You can only find it for yourself. So hence it became more a research research process right now. And again, that also reflects into my piece, which is my experience, my my stories, which I'm trying to convert that into a piece of art. And this is what I do, both in my class and in my performance.
Gabrielle [00:19:33] You're working on a lot of levels. Clearly, you know, with your the philosophy you're bringing to your teaching, to your what is becoming, you know, methodology for research, the development of your creative projects. And you're also the director of the Sanskar Festival. And so this festival in this festival, you're facilitating international creative exchange between Indian and international contemporary dance artists. And because I love is also an international collaboration and has had its own obstacles and setbacks due to your Indian passport and the inequities of movement. Can you talk about the context you're creating within and the relationship with Sanskar and your work with Sanskar?
Rakesh [00:20:19] I found a great growth in my the fact that I'm travelling and I'm now living in outside my homeland and because you put yourself in an unknown space and you are, you are discovering yourself, right? And meanwhile you're meeting these amazing artists and there's so much they inspired you and, and you, you develop yourself and you find yourself and you being an interesting projects. So when I look back now, if I did not travel from India, I don't know who I would have been and what I would have been developed into, right? At the same time, it was not an easy process. It's it's really a difficult journey, me coming from with an Indian passport, trying to be in the Western world. It's it's really not... It's it's very difficult. And one has to have like a very wealthy family who can really support you to do that or you have to really go through a very difficult process. And in my case, my family was not really wealthy. So my my journey was a bit of like ups and downs and turns and twists. What was fascinating is that when I started to travel, of course, you know, to give an example, when I'm in India, I'm watching certain companies in Europe, which are considered to be the very advanced in in the contemporary dance, right? Like, you know, Pina Bausch and Ultima Vez. And you're like, wow, you want to do that one day? That's that's your dream. And of course, what you have in India is classical arts, folk art, and then you have Bollywood and contemporary art, physical art is it's very. Is it? I could not find it. Even now, you cannot really find it clearly. So we are always striving behind a community that is already ahead of you, right? So you already copying them, trying to become that thinking 'That's contemporary dance. We got to roll on the floor. We got to create an amazing scenography and like them like that in order for you to call yourself a contemporary dancer.' And for me, over the years, I realised I become more Indian dancer. Me being in Europe, you know, I kind of got more and more fascinated by my own artistry. Of course I roll on the floor, I do jumps and I do create work. But I found it like, Wow, there is so much richness in my culture. But this journey brought me the awareness, how to investigate that, to make it contemporary. And that's what I am doing personally. Of course, I meet a lot of young artists from India. They write me emails, their messages saying like, Oh, how can I be in Europe? How can I... How can I study? How can I grow? How can I? So they they asked me and and of course it's not cheap and it's not easy. And so then we realise that, okay, we need to do something in India. And meanwhile. You know, talking about, let's say, yoga, let's... to give an example. I come to Western world and and I see people and I respect that very much and that, you know, people go and they do teacher training and yoga and they come on a yoga teacher and, oh, you I do this kind of yoga, I do that kind of yoga. And then you look at your own culture and what is meant for what is it been for for thousands of years being twisted and turned and created and brands and varieties of yoga. And that goes also in dance, right? Like people go study a little bit of Kathak for three months and they come, they create like, oh, this is Kathak.
Gabrielle [00:24:09] Mm-hmm.
Rakesh [00:24:09] And this is what I'm doing. And like it's interesting. I see there is a there is an interest in the community here to go to different cultures, to look into their information, to get inspired and, and use it for whatever intent they have to create art or to perceive life through that. And the same thing goes the other way around from India. People want to go and experience and be, you know, be in the mind of Western community. So you realise, okay, let's, let's create this project called Sanskar. And then the word Sanskar means creating imprint and an imprint like memory for future. So you realise that like what, how, what kind of environment that we can create that there is... There is an impact that happens from people from very diverse community that they are getting inspired by each other, learning from great masters, from India, from abroad and how it can help them towards future. And while coexisting together without boundaries and also learning from each other. So that's kind of like the philosophy of Sanskar. In a way, that's what happens in, in in my personal life with this whole difficulty of travelling and trying to fit in to being the best in the world. And so we realise that's not easy for young artists in India to do it. Then we created Sanskar and we do it in, in, in real space in India. And also we created kind of a virtual platform to address not just Indian artists, but creating space for people from different parts of the world.
Gabrielle [00:25:57] Thank you. Clearly there's so much potential in the transmission of knowledge and exchange of practice that can transpire with international collaboration. And yeah, these moments of these touchpoints and opportunities for collaboration. And your project is one example. And at the same time, often there's a commodification that happens or an idealisation or an exotification or just a lack of care around that whole process. So it's really interesting to hear about how in so many ways your own personal journey, you're translating that to to facilitate something more for others.
Rakesh [00:26:45] And also, it's I mean, I'm the co-creator of Sanskar. There's another my collaborator called Narendra Patil. So it's like the border region. And he's going through the same process, like he's trying to find himself in the open and create a life while we are resonating to the same issues. And and hence we created this platform. Yeah. Because for us, it's like what we had first. If we look at, let's say any space with with high creativity, let's say a tech company, or or NASA, it's a very diverse community working together. Right. You have Indians, you have Asians, you have people from around the world putting their creative mind and creating that, that, that great product. So somehow, like how he can create a space from artist that can bring what they have this amazing knowledge they all have in a space, throw it into one ball and to see what it's going to become like, who's getting inspired by what? And at the same time, everybody knows the source of it it comes from meanwhile. So, yes, you are fascinated by Kathak. But listen to a traditional Kathak teacher here, how they studied, how they value knowledge. Yes, you are fascinated by as you become a great choreographer in Europe. Understand the research that you need to put inside and and what are the process you have to go through. So it's like creating a platform and also giving a perspective towards what it takes for one to achieve something. So, so yeah, we're interested in this idea of creating a space of innovation by bringing in different things at the same place. And it's up to the participants to decide how they judge it, how they what they take out of it, how they carry forward.
Gabrielle [00:28:46] Similar to the audience's experience in your work.
Rakesh [00:28:51] I'm curious. I'm curious how it's going to be.
Gabrielle [00:28:54] I'm so appreciative of your generosity today and sharing more about your practice. It's clear the generosity you have as a teacher. I got to experience that and as someone just in conversation and then with these initiatives that you are co-directing, directing, that generosity is very clear and and the generosity to kind of... To pull from your own life experience and put that on the stage. So I'm really just so thrilled that this work will be part of the 2024 PuSh festival. I'm really looking forward to the performances January 22nd to 24th and that these will be also presented with Indian Summer Festival and The Cultch. So we're just thrilled to be able to host you and knowing the journey it's been to get to this place after we had such excitement to host the work in the 2023 festival. And then we're not able to do that because of the because of the inequities in the world around movement and the fact that you weren't able to receive a visa until and for quite a while after your application. So thank you for your patience as well and going through all of that and and still being on board. To come to PuSh and premiere the work.
Rakesh [00:30:17] Well, first of all, I am humbled and thank you for this time and all this opportunity and help PuSh gave and also gave... You, you have supporting this project from all along. I mean, I sometimes wonder if this support did not come through. I don't know if I would have had the resources to pull a show like this and also able to bring in fantastic artists like Marcus and Alessia and the others into the project. So your support as being one of the important for this project. These difficulties it's not the first time I have been through this, you know, this kind of difficulties in the past. The only thing that I my mantra is to it to persist, you stay on and something will unfold. And and so yeah, when it fell apart last year, I'm like, okay you go through your whatever the after effect of the news, but stick to the project and let's see when we arrive. So now it's going to be there in January. I'm really excited to be there and I cannot wait to share it and I'm just excited. I cannot wait.
Ben [00:31:31] That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Rakesh Sukesh, choreographer and performer of because i love the diversity (this micro-attitude, we all have it), which is being presented at the upcoming PuSh Festival. My name is Ben Charland and I'm one of the producers of this podcast, along with Tricia Knowles. PuSh Play is supported by our community Outreach Coordinator, Julian Legere. Original Music from Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of this podcast are released every Monday and Thursday. And for more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @PuShFestival. If you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word. And on the next PuSh Play.
Vanessa Goodman [00:32:18] When you have a layer of immunity, your immunity becomes part of your identity. | |||
| 02 Jan 2025 | Ep. 50 - The Negotiation (L’Addition) | 00:28:31 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Bertrand Lesca and Nasi Voutas (Bert and Nasi) who are presenting L’Addition at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. L’Addition, directed by Tim Etchells, will be performed at the Alliance Française Vancouver on January 25 and 26 in association with Here & Now, and supported by the consulat général de France à Vancouver. Show Notes Gabrielle, Bert and Nasi discuss:
About Bert and Nasi Bert and Nasi are a contemporary performance duo that met in 2015 and have since created an entire repertoire of shows in the midst of a period of national and international austerity. Their work, in turn, is stripped back and minimalist, whilst dealing with complex ideas and emotions. Their shows lie somewhere between performance, dance and theatre but if you had to pin them down on it, they'd probably say it's theatre. Together they have performed their shows on the international stages of PuSh Festival (Canada), Festival de Otoño (Spain), Sarajevo Mess (Bosnia), Adelaide International Festival (Australia), InTeatro (Italy), Avignon Festival (France) as well as MiTsp (Brazil). In 2020, Bert and Nasi received the Forced Entertainment Award in memory of Huw Chadbourn, which celebrates the work of contemporary artists reinventing theatre and performance in new ways and for new audiences. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Bert joined the conversation from Paris, while Nasi was in Marseille. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's director of programming, and today's episode highlights doing less and injecting feelings into facts.
00:17 I'm speaking with Bertrand Lesca and Nasi Voutas, performers and two of the creators of La Disson. A seemingly commonplace interaction between two men in a restaurant fractures into an absurdist kaleidoscope of shifting angles that reflect the comically nonsensical nature of life.
00:35 La Disson will be presented at the Push Festival January 25 and 26, 2025. Bert and Nasi are a contemporary performance duo that met in 2015 and have since created an entire repertoire of shows in the midst of a period of national and international austerity.
00:52 Their work, in turn, is stripped back and minimalist, though it deals with complex ideas and emotions. Tim Echols is the director of La Disson and is an artist and writer based in the UK, whose work shifts between performance, visual art, and fiction.
01:06 Echols has worked in a wide variety of contexts, notably as the leader of the world-renowned Sheffield-based performance group, Forest Entertainment. Here's my conversation with Bert and Nasi. I do want to just start by acknowledging that I am joining this conversation from the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh.
01:33 I'm a settler here, and part of my responsibility as a settler is to continue to educate myself on the state of reconciliation, the history of genocide and colonization, and to continue to engage in decolonization efforts.
01:54 There's always more we can do, but I really lean on the Yellowhead Institute here. which is an incredible resource of policies and reports, just tracking things like Canada's progress with regard to, for example, the truth and reconciliation calls to action.
02:12 So I'm just gonna reference one of the more recent reports, a decade of disappointment, reconciliation in the system of a crown. And again, really just kind of reflecting on the 10 years since the 94 calls to action.
02:28 And this report, I think it's really powerful. It talks about how reconciliation is not just about apologizing for past wrongs, at which Canada is quite adept. It's about ending current wrongs that are happening today and preventing future wrongs, both of which Canada fails to do, and that the legacy calls to action happen to be those with the least progress.
02:51 And these are these four calls to action that, basically provide annual funding comparison metrics between indigenous and non-indigenous populations on and off reserve populations. And the logic of these calls is to clearly identify Canada's unwillingness to adequately invest resources to support indigenous communities over whom it has exerted control for the last 160 plus years.
03:18 And I just really, this is a plug for Yellowhead and that's a report to check out. And it's just definitely frames things in such a powerful and honest way. Bert and Nasi, where are you joining the call today from?
03:34 So I'm actually in Paris because we went to see with Nasi, but Nasi is already in Marseille, but we went to see our friends, Forced Entertainment, perform in Paris, their latest show for their 40th anniversary called Signal to Noise.
03:55 I don't know if you already saw it. I haven't seen it, but I've been following. It's exciting. Yeah. Read about it. It's a great show and there's a lot of moments when you laugh, but there's also a hot moment when you kind of despair what's happening on stage as well, because it echoes brilliantly with a lot of foreign political contexts.
04:21 And yeah, it's pretty and sure it's really good. And are these, Forced Entertainment, have you been long time friends or is this really a relationship that's grown from the work on La Descien? We've known them for a while now, not 40 years.
04:41 We weren't there at the beginning. Actually, yeah, we're a bit younger, but we have been working with them since 2020 actually, because we won an award. that they gave out to people, and we were one of the people they gave an award to, and that started a kind of mentoring relationship.
05:07 They kind of fell during COVID. So it was kind of like a, yeah, kind of weird time. But also it was cool to like, we started meeting them online and kind of, they started mentoring us. We started working with Tim and Eileen, who is the company producer.
05:28 And yeah, it kind of started from there, really, like, we got to know them a bit more. And obviously beforehand, we were like big fans of their work. So it was super cool to like, chat to them about stuff, you know, stuff to do with making work.
05:47 Sorry, I'm in Marseille. And Bert, you're not usually based in Paris, are you? No, I'm also based in Marseille, same as we live five months. down from each other. Yeah, we live five minutes from each other, yeah.
05:58 Quite unusual that you're catching us at a moment when we're actually very far apart, which is not often the case, because we tour and do most of the things together, so. Push has had the pleasure of hosting you before.
06:13 Push presented Palmyra in 2019. And this is, Palmyra is an exploration of revenge, the politics of destruction, and what we consider to be barbaric, inviting people to step back from the news. It looks at what lies beneath and beyond civilization.
06:30 So since then you've created six shows. Can you talk about the evolution or shifts within your work over this period? When we came and we did Palmyra at Push, it was a really nice experience. And that show was, we loved doing that show.
06:49 But yeah, there's definitely been like, I think, yes, six shows later. I guess like with this show, with La Duchamp, I think we're kind of, we're playing with similar stuff. There's stuff that kind of relates to those two shows, but in terms of the dynamic, in terms of the kind of, sometimes the intensity of both those shows.
07:13 But I'd say that in our work, we kind of stepped back from overtly political material and using that as like a springboard into making. I think we kind of, I don't know, in the brushstrokes we started to do in making work, it became a bit like thicker and a bit like, you know, incorporating like lots of things.
07:40 Like we feel our work is still political, just like any person who like occupies a space with other people can be a political act and can be a political thing. But yeah, I suppose. like we we moved a little bit towards we started to explore different kind of ways of of occupying a space and making and making work.
08:07 That's fascinating to me and is that like that was just about needing more kind of uh points of reference or needing different research trajectories or you know wanting to move away from you know how sometimes work with a political message can be didactic or I'm just curious to hear you speak more about that shift and what like inspired that.
08:32 Yeah I think I think also like Palmyra like resonated very strongly so for us it was really a show about Palmyra and Syria and what was going on in the Middle East but actually a lot of because of its open-ended nature uh in the sense that we never spoke about you know We never said these words on stage, so it was all to do with actions and how people were kind of perceiving what we were doing to each other on stage and stuff.
09:00 People kind of projected a lot of meaning onto the show. And Amira, for example, we we ended up presenting in loads of different contexts in different festivals and different countries. And in the case of Canada, for example, it really kind of spoke about the indigenous indigenous experience.
09:19 And in Brazil, the same. And in Northern Ireland, it was also about that kind of colonized experience. So it was it kind of like started kind of like speaking louder than we'd anticipated. And I think that's that that was kind of the success of the show.
09:40 And then, like, the more we kind of like carried on, the more like, actually, like, maybe we don't have to say what the show is about. Maybe we don't need to kind of place it, even though, like, you know, the title is there and that's it.
09:54 But maybe actually just kind of putting two people on stage and and and considering other things about what those two people are doing on stage and their relationship and the nature of collaboration and working with one another and working with the audience and all of these things can kind of like lend itself to be political.
10:15 But it was more the question. It was more the kind of like, let's see where that that takes us and let's see where that takes people as well. And it kind of ended up being more of an exploration in the latest kind of like shows as well of like something that's a bit more existential as well and a bit more kind of metaphysical maybe and about what it is to kind of occupy a space with the audience.
10:39 Also, like, what is it to kind of like be in this world and think like this? I also think like in a very blunt sort of way, those first three shows, we made Eurohouse, Palmyra and one they were like intense we did like some pretty weird nasty shit to each other in those shows and then we toured them a lot and then but kind of like in a very simple way i think when we came to make the end which was like a dance movement piece that we made we kind of wanted to make something a bit like together and kind of really being together in exploring something a bit more metaphysical and also a bit more personal so that really contributed in terms of like moving away from these kind of like kind of very like head-to-head this conflict vibe that we kind of we still like kind of love but we kind of like just kind of stepped back a little bit from that from that vibe for a few years but this show I think we're very much back in that vibe and so it's and we're happy to be to be there as well.
11:58 I have a question about a workshop that you offer so and we're hoping that we'll be able to host it here while you're in Vancouver and the workshop's titled Less Workshop in which you explore ideas around disagreement, frustration, hatred and reconciliation, particularly as these to contemporary society and using the stage as a space for artistic and political negotiation.
12:23 And so we've already been speaking about this to some extent but my question tied to that was would you say that these ideas define your work and can you speak more to artistic and political negotiation?
12:36 I think it was a workshop that we started developing when we were making these kind of first of all it took us quite a lot of time to try and articulate those ideas in a space with the students and with other people so we still feel quite attached to these ideas and also we feel like actually we've got something to kind of offer in that sense that actually seeing how we can kind of portray the political just with kind of people and in relation to an audience this is something that we feel we can do.
13:16 In the later part of what we do it's a little bit more tricky because a lot of it rests on on us and our collaboration and us both and it's a bit more personal so this is something that in a way like we feel a little bit less inclined to kind of go down because it's like well this is kind of this is the road we're on as as makers and as collaborators but probably that those students that will be with us in the space will have a very different way of making work and will have a very different kind of road for their for their own work and their own collaboration.
13:51 So that's why we're kind of at the moment we're still sticking to this because we feel at least that that is something that Probably people can use and and and can understand Something maybe that's kind of like relatively new or something that they can use to create Yeah political work with a bit of with a bit of distance maybe there's from the beginning we've always had I Mean we don't have much set in our shows historically and Normally,
14:25 it's just like very much just two of us in a space Maybe with a laptop maybe with a table or some chairs and We just explore stuff through that. So I guess those were like the founding principles that we Started making work with kind of through necessity because in the UK for the past like 12 years I uh we had uh you know the Tory government uh arts funding was cut like which is so common nowadays like seems all across the world um and so we kind of found this form um sort of out of necessity and then and then kind of fell in love with this form like and and and actually enjoyed it and and kind of we were very passionate about about really bringing something into a room with not much means and like really creating an experience with an audience in a room yeah that's kind of carried on being a real like principle that we have when we think about work and when we think about what it means to perform live work to an audience um it's really great to hear examples of of what defines your work the aesthetics the form uh and also your practice you've shared that your practice revolves around questions such as how do we prioritize simplicity when talking about very complex matters and how do you inject feeling into facts and also how can we do less which you've spoken to but with regard to the first two can you can you offer us some more similar examples as to how you're answering or how you have answered these questions we just like the the the surprise that when you really prioritize simplicity in a space and you just focus on like like you being like the audience being in a room with you when you when you make and when you perform sometimes it unlocks something that is that is more impressive than if you kind of bring some sort of like high budget thing into into it or you kind of have this big image like the simplicity of just like this this moment that you're sharing with in a space with some people that's the thing that really like we we like that's the thing that gets us going sort of you know and that's no shade i'm like these big budget productions,
16:52 but we like that simplicity, we like that. Hopefully everybody can see La Decine because La Decine is an answer to that question as well. It's just like how riveting a work can be with such simple substance in terms of like, you know, text, set, all of these things.
17:20 And how the intensity that's created and also the references to, you know, bigger themes of, you know, the directionlessness of our modern world. Or there's many things that you can also like apply and relate to within it and read into it.
17:38 And it's, yeah, it's a great example of that extremely minimal form, yeah. But some people listening will not have seen the work. or they'll listen to this after having seen the work. So it's great to hear from you a little bit more.
17:52 I'm just thinking, I'm just going back to the how do you inject feeling into facts? And I imagine that when you're even working with more political work in the past, that bringing it to the personal or finding that emotional language on stage is key to make it relatable.
18:09 That's what I read into that question. Is that kind of some point? It really started also for us, again, from that very first show that we started developing together in Greece, which was about what was going on there and the whole austerity going on in there and the feelings that we could sense when we were there.
18:38 And we started opening the room to people who were following the process and initially it was kind of like we were using information about the debt and about what's going on with the European Union and stuff like this.
18:53 And it felt very actually quite cold. And it felt like also kind of basically saying what a lot of people knew or didn't know, but actually like it was like this kind of overload of information that didn't really create feelings.
19:10 And then we shifted and then we kind of like, we've got this, but we also have another version which was kind of without words, where basically we were playing games and I was humiliating Nasi on stage and asking him to do things that was very uncomfortable to see and to witness in a room.
19:32 And that was it, that was just like two kids basically just bullying each other on stage with the complicity of the audience watching it and having to kind of take part somehow. And that for them, the reaction.
19:48 reaction was like a very, very stark reaction compared to the first showing that we've done. Because it was, they said, that's it. That's what we're feeling. That's what we're experiencing when we're at the moment and you're showing it and you're making me see it, but not in kind of like in through information, but through feelings.
20:12 And that feels like quite different kind of show actually. And that's when we carried on. That's when we kind of stuck. So maybe there is something there that actually opens it for a lot of people. La Decion was directed by Tim Etchells, produced by Forest Entertainment and commissioned by Festival d'Avignon.
20:33 Usually you direct your own work. What was that collaboration like and how does it make La Decion similar to or different from the rest of your body of work? It was an amazing experience. It was super, super cool.
20:48 I'm working with Tim. I mean, he's been doing this for a long time and we've been such fans of Four Stents that it was just amazing to have the experience of him, of making a show with him. And seeing like his instincts in a room and how he kind of leads a process was really special for both of us.
21:13 There were many moments where we were like, this is really cool. We're going to remember this experience. And I think what was nice was that I think with us two and him, we really found each other on the same page very quickly and very easily.
21:34 And I think all of us were sort of surprised about that. Like the show felt like a real organic collaboration where like our worlds that are not too dissimilar anyway, like really kind of, there's a nice balance in the show.
21:52 And I think people are aware of our work and who saw Palmyra when we were last time in Vancouver and who are also aware of Four Stents and also his solo stuff. I think people have said that they can really see that kind of that balance between the two, between all of us and kind of making something that's quite new and quite fresh.
22:19 Yeah, it was great. It was cool. And we're very proud of the show that came out. There's something really magical about this experience of, like I said, the opening of the podcast is that we went to see them last night in Paris.
22:34 They're celebrating their 40th anniversary and they're showing work that is still kind of really pushing boundaries after 40 years. and then being able to kind of like be privy to this and learn from people who've done it for a really long time, have been touring for a really long time where we can share like the difficulties of it or the kind of experience of doing that sort of work or wanting to go towards that sort of work as well,
23:09 is a, yeah, is a really great experience for us, I think. And Nasi talked about how, you know, just how Tim leads a process, just being in the room with him and how that was different. Like, how is that different?
23:27 How is it different from how you lead a process? It wasn't like crazy, crazy different, but for sure, like he's, we're kind of like all in it together, but then you have someone who's just on the outside and not only just someone, you've got Tim Echols on the outside, so he's just directing you in, in a...
23:47 in the best possible way, like kind of guiding kind of like if he sees something working, he'll like tell you to lean into it a little bit more. And, and he's so deaf that like, kind of guiding an improvisation or sending it in a way if he sees like there might be a bit of joy somewhere in the room.
24:05 I'm talking about like when we're improvising and stuff, trying to find material. And it was just a it's just a real pleasure to have that. And normally, when we're by ourselves, it's, yeah, we, we, we're like, searching in the moment, but we don't have that person on the outside.
24:25 So normally, we stop and we chat a lot, which we also do with Tim. But but yeah, I guess it's just it's just a, it's a great thing to have, to have that. Also, the level of detail he goes into in terms of looking at stuff and looking at improvisations and re recreating kind of improvisations is something that was really new for us and something that yeah, we, we learned a lot from doing how to not only have things that are fluid and kind of live,
25:03 but then also really kind of like focusing on the minuscule details of a moment, which he and forced dense, forced entertainment, I really have a lot of experience and kind of like really kind of to the to the to the very small detail kind of like recreating these very funny, very cool moments.
25:24 And if people see La Decion, what could they expect? If they're then going to go see the next Bert and Nasi work, what could they expect to, to be a through line or something that they might see in that other work of yours, that next work of yours, both of you on stage, for one.
25:43 But no, no, I think it's also like the I think what people recognize in the show and the work is really this kind of direct address and direct way we have of addressing an audience and of looking at people in the eyes and really making them feel like they're part of this thing with us, part of this problem that we're kind of setting out for people in the room.
26:11 And so that's I think something that we're very keen to develop from the start, but that we're still really like passionate about is this sense of like, what is it to develop work where you make the audience feel like this is for me, like this is, like I'm here with them because they're looking at me and they want me to be part of this thing.
26:39 Whether I want it or not, because sometimes people don't want it, we're gonna kind of like really drag them to it. somehow, some way or another. Not through interaction, because we don't ask people to talk.
26:52 But the way that we deliver it, I think there's no way that you wouldn't feel included somehow. So that's the hope and that's the through line, I think, throughout everything we've done since the beginning.
27:11 Thank you so much. Thank you. I am thrilled to experience this work live here with our public and to have you back with us here. Yeah, thank you so much for your time. Thanks. Looking forward to being back.
27:26 Yeah, that's gonna be great. That was Gabriel Martin in conversation with Burt and Nasi. They will join Push for its 20th festival with their work La Decion being presented on January 25th and 26th at Alliance Française Vancouver in association with Here and Now.
27:45 My name is Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts.
27:59 For more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theatre, dance, music and multimedia performances visit pushfestival.ca and on the next Push Play. I'm kind of always been wary of artistic figures kind of emphasizing that this is the way to do this.
28:23 This is how. That to me makes absolutely no sense.
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| 05 Dec 2024 | Ep. 43 - Reclaiming Language (Lasa ng Imperyo: A Taste of Empire) | 00:23:45 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Carmela Sison about Lasa ng Imperyo (A Taste of Empire), which will be presented during the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival on January 30 - February 1 and February 4-8 at The NEST. In this episode, Gabrielle references a previous PuSh Play episode: Multilingual Creation: its dramaturgy and implications. Show Notes Gabrielle and Carmela discuss:
About Carmela Sison Carmela Sison is a Filipino-Canadian artist living and working on the unceded territories of the xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Nations, colonially known as Vancouver, Canada. She is a graduate of the University of Alberta’s BFA in Acting program with additional training from the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York City, the University of Victoria, and the FUEL Ensemble at Theatre Calgary. She continues to hone her craft with various teachers and mentors in Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago, and New York. Over the past few years, Carmela has been an instructor for theatre for young audience residency programs in elementary schools, mentored and coached youth in their pursuit of a career in acting, including coaching many young adults going into professional acting programs. As an instructor, Carmela strives to build up young actors, giving them a solid foundation with voice, text, and movement. This serves as a springboard for further growth, seeking truth, and making authentic connection. She encourages her students to be curious actors, asking questions to better understand their work. Carmela has been working closely in Beatrice King’s Youth classes since March of 2020, shaping young actor’s careers, coaching auditions, self tapes, and providing mentorship. As an actor, Carmela has had recurring roles on The Mysterious Benedict Society and iZombie, has appeared in many shows such as Riverdale, Altered Carbon, The Flash, and Bates Motel and can be seen in a supporting role on Lifetime’s The Kidnapping of Abby Hernandez this Fall. She has also graced many of Western Canada’s most prestigious stages, most recently in Miss Bennet: Christmas at Pemberley at The Arts Club Theatre, Bard on the Beach, Western Canada Theatre, The Belfry Theatre, Concrete Theatre, and Theatre Calgary. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:01 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, Push's director of programming, and today's episode highlights adventures in cooking as performance and laughing with one's ancestors.
00:18 I'm speaking with Carmela Cisan, the lead artist behind Lassa Nong in Perio, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 30th to February 8th, 2025. In a surprising fusion of theatre and gastronomy, this adaptation of A Taste of Empire guides audiences across the layered history of Philippine cultural heritage through a live cooking demonstration.
00:41 As a dish of stuffed milkfish comes to life, so do the stories within its ingredients prompting reflections on how colonial legacies shape today's global food market. Carmela Cisan is a Filipina-Canadian artist who has been on a journey of language reclamation with her show, Lassa Nong in Perio.
01:00 Here's my conversation with Carmela. Hi, Carmela. Hi, how are you? I'm great. I mentioned I just had a little bit too much coffee, but that means that I'm really excited for this conversation with you.
01:16 I didn't need coffee to be excited about this, so, you know, just looking for I've been looking forward to it. So thanks for having me. Yeah, I am thrilled. And I have to also give the context that we started talking about this work three years ago, our first conversation, and I was super excited about the project then.
01:35 And I'm super excited to see how it's developing and to host the premiere in 2025. Yes, I'm so excited. It's finally happening. I don't even know if I was finished yet or, you know, had seen the light at the end of the tunnel when we were first talking about it.
01:49 So I'm really, really excited that we're here. We're finally here. Yeah, a few months out. I'll just offer some context for where we're having this conversation today. So we are on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh.
02:10 I'll add that I'm a settler here, and that part of my commitment as a settler is to continue to educate myself on land-back issues, on sovereignty and ongoing colonization. And that looks like different things each day, and today that looks like learning about resource development and Indigenous rights.
02:34 And this learning is largely in thanks to the Yellowhead Institute and their briefs, which is an incredible source of education for me. And with regard to resource development, specifically looking at how Canadian political officials co-opt and distort the aims of Indigenous people from restitution towards economic reconciliation.
02:59 you know, engaging in a questioning of this concept that economic growth is the only right that matters in a quote unquote, reconciliation, Reconciliatory Canada. So those are some of the things I'm reflecting on today.
03:16 We're going to shift into talking about your work, Lassa Nang Emperio. Am I pronouncing it correctly? Good job, Lassa Nang Emperio. Thank you. Great job. Lassa Nang Emperio. So this is a Tagalog re-imagination of Giovanni C's A Taste of Empire, an award-winning theater cooking show, live theater cooking show.
03:44 And you've completed a two-year translation and adaptation of this work with Giovanni C and Nina Lia Kino, in addition to development through the workshop theater Montreal's Glasgow Translation Residency, Boca del Lupo's SLAM program, and Rice and Bean Theater's Double Speak program.
04:03 So my first question to you is why adapt and translate Taste of Empire? And what is your history with adapting work? So truthfully, this has been like my first journey into adaptation and translation.
04:18 Historically, I've been more of a traditional actor, seeing other people's words. But then I actually saw Giovanni do this show a few years ago, directed by Sherry Yoon at Boca del Lupo, and was just so inspired by it.
04:34 Not only was the show so like charming and really took on some subjects like head-on, but just the concept of like live cooking. And it's almost like a clown show really, a live clown show really intrigued me.
04:50 And I was just kind of like mentioning, oh, I'd love to do that one day, love to do the show one day. And then I think the word... got back to Giovanni. And at that time, I think Derek Chan was just finishing his translation.
05:08 He had done a Cantonese translation a few years ago. And so I remember seeing Giovanni and he was like, do you want to translate it into Tagalog? And that kind of was number one, super intimidating, but was also really exciting.
05:27 I'd never done that before. So it was something that was new to me. And I was really kind of at that stage of my career when I was looking for different challenges and just something to kind of own as an artist.
05:44 And Giovanni being an artist that I truly respect and admire and really look up to. It was really just a mix of trusting his instinct. to even ask me and gathering all the courage to just to to say yes.
06:04 And I think like within three weeks we had sent in our application to the Glasgow residency because the deadline was coming up. So we like kind of like worked really hard on that that application and got in right away.
06:19 So it was like, you know, a very short time period between when he had asked me and getting into the into the residency. So it was really fantastic. And, you know, it's been it's been a long process.
06:34 And also we had the pandemic there. So that definitely halted a few things. But I think this adaptation not only updates some of the references and not that it was super dated before, but it's adapting it into a more femme femme perspective and specifically my lived experience as a Filipina human being in this world and dealing with a lot of the, you know, everything that comes along with colonialism and imperialism.
07:08 So, yeah, I think most of the adaptation is making it into a a very culturally Filipino show and through a female lens. Yeah. Great. And have you been in ongoing dialogue with Giovanni about the adaptation or have from that beginning kind of consent and agreement to, you know, that that blessing to have you adapt it to the dialogue, adapt it and translate it?
07:38 Have you kind of been on your own or how has that worked? He's really been a part of the process throughout. And he's not a micromanager at all. I think there was a lot of trust there, but we were at the translation residency together and we got to spend a lot of time together.
07:54 And I think that's it. the tone that he was like, I trust what you're doing. And also because he doesn't speak. I think he understands a few Tagalog words, but he doesn't speak it fluently. So there was a lot of trust there.
08:11 But I also just knowing I need to honor his work would ask for, ask for clarification of like what he meant with his version of it. And just so that I can honor his words properly in this adaptation, in this translation.
08:31 It also became kind of a bit of a trio work with myself, Nina and Giovanni, because Nina knows the work really well. And it speaks Tagalog. So it kind of became like deciding how best to adapt and translate.
08:52 and stay true to what Giovanni meant it to be. So yeah, it was really like my dream team, Giovanni and Nina, just making this happen, so. It is a dream team, yeah. Super lucky. And you speak about the process of translation and adaptation as being linked to a journey of language reclamation.
09:12 Can you speak more to that and the implications of the choice to perform the work in Tagalog? Oh, yeah. You know, it's been a bit of an emotional roller coaster ever since I started it. Oh, man, I'm trying not to get too emotional.
09:33 Growing up as an immigrant in the 90s, I didn't want to sound different. I didn't want to stand out in the wrong ways. So there was so much about my culture that I shut down and really like put away, you know, like never wanted to really be too Filipino.
09:54 So working on this has really been a journey of reclamation, not only of language, but of culture. And having moved here when I was seven years old, I really didn't have a sense of like what a superpower it is to come from a different culture and to know a different language.
10:23 So it really wasn't until, you know, the end of theater school really where a director let me just be as Filipino as I could be in a show that really kind of woke up that sense in me. And it's still definitely a journey of defining and redefining what it is to be Filipina-Canadian in this climate.
10:50 And it's different for everybody as well. and anytime, whenever I'm learning and relearning things it adds to that process as well, especially as a settler on these lands, you know, and really kind of dealing with the colonialism that the Filipino people also went through and don't very often talk about.
11:14 So, you know, I think those that my work with that cultural colonization and being a settler on these lands are very much intertwined with each other. And only when I kind of started really traveling on my own did I really discover what a superpower speaking Tagalog is.
11:36 I literally, you know, I remember losing my credit card at the Louvre in France and in Paris and couldn't find help, but it was one Filipino worker who was able to guide me and she didn't speak English.
11:51 She spoke Tagalog and French, so we spoke in Tagalog. So it really is, I think of it as a superpower now. And I think in terms of this play and being at Push, I'm so excited for the community to come out and see the show here, Tagalog, here, Filipino, and show them that theater is a place where they belong, where their culture can be shown and be proud of.
12:22 And with this adaptation, also just framing the topics that it tackles through a very culturally specific sense. Like there are just some things that the humor is very different with Filipinos. And so I think it'll be a little bit of an inside, you know what I mean?
12:47 Like it'll be an inside joke for them that doesn't quite translate to English, but they'll understand it more culturally for sure. Yeah, I really do appreciate, in a work that's also talking about histories of imperialism, colonialism, that the work destabilizes the dominant culture here.
13:14 I think there's, I think in general in Vancouver, folks are still a bit uncomfortable with subtitles or not across the board, but a lot of people would prefer not have that experience, right? But I think it's a really healthy experience to be destabilized in that way, rather than everything.
13:36 As an English speaker, so much of the world and culture is catered to us. Yeah, I really applaud the kind of bold move it is. is to keep, to have the work be in Tagalog. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I don't ever claim to be like a perfect Tagalog or Filipino speaker because I didn't move here when I was way too young.
14:04 And again, didn't practice enough when I was younger, but for someone who moved here that young, I think I'm really good. So, and also culturally because it is a colonized culture, there's a lot of taglish in it as well.
14:19 And there are just some words that Filipinos no longer translate. Like I know some of my Cantonese speaker speaking friends, they say that when there's like a new thing, they usually get like a Cantonese word for that.
14:32 But I think in Filipino culture, we don't do that as much. They just use the English word or a Spanish word, whatever is like seems apt at the time, but yeah. So, but yeah, I'm super excited for, to kind of challenge the Vancouver audience.
14:50 in terms of that. Just be in this space and be in our little world for a little while. Super exciting. And Marcus Yousuf is directing this work. Can you speak about the process of having a non-Galog speaker direct the work?
15:07 What is that like? Yes. So our goal actually is to have our surtitles ready while we are rehearsing. So he has both scripts. So in my work with the adaptation and translator, I've kind of made these two parallel scripts just so he can best follow it with the two scripts.
15:40 But I think what we're going to try to have is have the surtitles that he's able to just watch and be kind of that outside eye for the play. I think he also knows the English play quite well. Like he's had a relationship with Giovanni and the original director for a while.
16:08 So they're friends. So there's a lot of trust there. I just feel like there's a lot of trust reciprocally there. Great. And you've been performing as an actor in film and theater since 2010. Do you have a sense of what role writing and adapting will play in your practice to come?
16:30 I don't have a specific project in mind, but it's interesting actually because I realized during this process that ever since I started acting, I'd always say things like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to set this classical play in this time period and then like this war was happening so how would it work you know so I'd always imagined those worlds so not uh it's only been recently that I've really kind of like it dawned on me like oh I've always had an interest in adapting classical work um to either modernize them or make them um a bit more uh yeah like up to date um and this is just I feel like just this the my tiny introduction into that um and it's been already like such a such a great experience so um I don't have a specific project but I'm sure that it'll have a lasting impact on my career and it's also given me a lot of um uh it's been easier to imagine a career where I have agency over my work um and that that I can influence the trajectory of my career.
17:51 And for sure, it given me a lot more confidence that my particular voice is worthy and it's been a very validating experience as an artist for sure. That makes me think, I'm curious what, as a performer in this work, what the UC is the biggest challenges and opportunities?
18:13 As a performer in this work, well, like technically the cooking, I think I've made this dish before. So for those who don't know, I make a Relyanong Bongos, which is a stuffed fish live from start to finish.
18:33 And I've made the dish before, but in my own time following a recipe, making all the mistakes that I need to. So doing that, timing that to the script, making sure that I turn on the heat for the oil, making sure everything goes right, that's kind of like technically daunting.
18:55 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a challenge, but a fun challenge. Yeah, exactly, for sure. And I know, I mean, this is what I've set myself up for, but a one person show in a language that I don't speak every day because of the place I live in, right?
19:16 Like, I just don't, I can't speak Tagalog 24 seven. That's going to be a massive challenge for sure. And just kind of technically warming up my voice to a different language will be a new experience for me.
19:34 I've done plays where I speak a little bit of Tagalog, but not the whole thing. So yeah, and I'm lots of curiosities. This question is like very much sparking a lot. different things, but also keeping the audience engaged, especially those who don't actually understand it, making sure that they're still with me.
19:56 Again, that playing with the audience is going to be, yeah, just new and very exciting. Is it correct that you were part of our industry series conversation on the dramaturgy of multilingual creation in 2022?
20:14 Were you part of that conversation? Yes. Yeah. That was moderated by Pedro. Yes. Oh my gosh. I forgot I did that. That was online. We were still I believe. Yeah. And listeners, that is available on our website.
20:34 That's still, it's a great conversation with a number of multilingual creators like yourself, like Johnny Wu, the artist behind Alapi, which was a project we had that year. But I bring it up because I remember Johnny Wu was talking about how different languages sit in his body differently or make him inhabit his body differently.
20:56 Have you had an experience like that when you switch between languages? Is that something that you think about? Definitely. I think it's actually like deeper in my heart. Like there are just so many things that I feel like I can feel more when I say it in Tagalog rather than English.
21:17 And also the way I even kind of like my humor is so different in Tagalog or even when I'm with other Filipinos, I think all of those things come out so differently because it's rooted in my heart and my gut.
21:41 Do you know what I mean? I think sometimes when I make jokes in English, it still feels very like, this is just for a laugh. But when I'm truly making a joke in Tagalog or making other Filipinos laugh, it's this like, yeah, it's like making my ancestors laugh.
21:59 I know that sounds like super airy-fairy, but it's just so true. And I see it in my family too when there's a big Filipino gathering, it's just a different vibe altogether. Wow, thanks. Very much looking forward to experiencing this work and connecting others to this incredible premiere that will happen in Bush 2025.
22:23 Thank you for sharing about your process. Thanks, Carmela. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. You just heard Gabriel Martin's conversation with Carmela Sison. Lassa Nong-Imperio, A Taste of Empire, will be presented at the Push International Performing Arts Festival in Vancouver, B.C.
22:45 The festival will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025, and you can catch the show at The Nest on January 30th and 31st, as well as February 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th. I'm Ben Charland, and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles, original music by Joseph Hirabayashi.
23:07 New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the 2025 festival, and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theatre, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.
23:26 Coming up on the next Push Play... often, you know, you can be into a thing, but you don't really know how it's going to land until all the power of it until you put it in a space of people. And that was a really, really stripped back piece of performance.
23:40 I mean, I feel like the work is anyways.
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| 30 Dec 2024 | Ep. 49 - The One to One Affair (Marie Chouinard) | 00:26:05 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with the legendary Marie Chouinard. Marie’s Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun and Rite of Spring will be presented at the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival on February 3 at the Chilliwack Cultural Centre. Show Notes Gabrielle and Marie discuss:
About Marie Chouinard Marie Chouinard was born in Quebec. At the age of 16, her life was transformed after spending 4 months alone in Percé. As a choreographer, she traveled the world over as soloist for 12 years before founding the COMPAGNIE MARIE CHOUINARD in 1990. Her works, radical and profound, with a unique signature are nonetheless enduring and appear in the repertoires of major international ballet companies. Marie Chouinard is a director (films, applications, virtual reality works), an author (Zéro Douze, Chantiers des extases), a visual artist (photographs, drawings, installations), and she also creates choreographies for site-specific installations, for the screen, and in real-time for the web. Named Officière des Arts et des Lettre in France, recipient of a Bessie Award in New York, she has received some thirty of the most prestigious awards and honors. She founded the Prix de la Danse de Montréal in 2011 and was director of dance at the Venice Biennale from 2017 to 2020. Marie Chouinard is preparing a solo exhibition. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Marie joined the conversation from what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights play as a well source of energy.
00:16 I'm speaking with Mary Schwinard, choreographer of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun and The Rite of Spring, which are being presented at the Push Festival February 3rd, 2025. Mary Schwinard presents two unorthodox performances inspired by Ballet Roos masterpieces and reimagined into viscerally provocative experiences.
00:38 Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun interprets the lustful flirtations of a half goat creature with raw primal physicality, and The Rite of Spring captures the explosive energy of creation in a vivid celebration of dance as it bursts into modernity.
00:54 Mary Schwinard, a Quebec choreographer with a unique career path founded company Mary Schwinard in 1990 after an internationally acclaimed solo career. Her multidisciplinary works integrating dance, visual arts, and technology have earned her many prestigious awards and a prominent place in the world of contemporary dance.
01:14 Here's my conversation with Marie. You have been an iconic figure that I've been aware of and admired for a very long time, so it's just a real treat to be able to actually talk to you and get to hear more about you, these works that will be presented at the Push Festival and the Chilliwack Cultural Centre and to hear more about your wider practice.
01:38 So just before we dive into the conversation, I would just like to acknowledge that this conversation is happening. I am here on the traditional ancestral and stolen territories of the Squamish, Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
01:55 And as a settler here, I continue to think about what it means to be on the these lands, and what it means to bring a land based approach into different fields of work. And so today I just wanted to share reflections upon reading work by Dr.
02:13 Lindsay Lachance, Lachance, who is a award winning dramaturge, and holds a Canada Research Chair position in land based and relational dramaturgies. And so I'll just share a little bit from her article, which is tiny sparks everywhere, birch bark biting as land based dramaturgies, which has been published by the Canadian Theatre Review, and translated to French and published in Le Curieu Manual de Dramaturgies pour la dans le tiâtre et autre mâtérieure de bonjour.
02:43 And she speaks to the Algonquin Anishinaabe practice of birch bark biting as a basis for her dramaturgical principles of intention, superposition, holding, profound listening, and resurfacing emergence.
02:59 and brings into question how our capacity to engage with intangible realities is possible without this attentive presence. So that attentive presence being a key practice of land-based dramaturgies that distinguishes it from other approaches.
03:15 And I think that it's so interesting to have the opportunity to hear these kind of concrete examples of what land-based approaches mean. And, you know, specifically it's relevant today as we talk about dramaturgy artistic process.
03:29 So I encourage you to check out Dr. Lindsay Lachance's work. Today we're going to jump right into getting a sense of your practice, your parkour. Marie, can you walk us through the evolution of your artistic inquiry since the founding of your company, which in 1990, you founded it in 1990, and you'd already been creating dance as a soloist for 12 years before that.
03:57 And what were you interested in doing on stage in 1990, compared to now? Actually, the history of my practice, like you said, starts in 1978. And it has always been a relationship with art as somehow a sacred practice that is putting us in contact with what is beyond, beyond our history, even beyond our society, beyond, really beyond.
04:37 And that's why it took me so many years before I could consider working with a group of people, because somehow in my way of approaching dance, it was a one-to-one affair, like with the woman divinity, if you want, whatever, but just a one-to-one one affair.
04:59 It's like me in front of life, me in front of cosmos, me in front of my ancestors that are even before human beings. I really feel that there is a link with even the material world which is imbued with the spirit even before life appeared on this planet.
05:21 So I was so much into this practice and then of course that work was going to be brought in front of people, bring in front of people. And of course I'm also creating for, of course, people. But the basis is this link with what is beyond and then bringing this as a celebration or something and offering to my brothers and sisters to share.
05:52 And then it took me years before I was in front of this. impossibility of creating a new work because I was seeing, because I was the only interpret of my work, I was a soloist performer, I needed to be two or three simultaneously in the space.
06:12 And then so I then I was like, wow, then pushing that idea besides and trying again to come back to create a solo. And it was really persistent for weeks that I could not start a creation because I needed to be more than one in the space.
06:29 So this is where I started to have a company in 1990. And I had to really fight against myself because I thought, oh, if I work with people that will be less sacred somehow, that was in my spirit at that time, you know.
06:46 And so I had to fight. So it took another few weeks to have this combat with my, this fight with my own perception of things. So then finally, I surrendered to the idea of actually then I discovered it has to be to share even in the process of creation, because for me, the process of creation was really so sacred and lonely.
07:12 And then I realized, well, it will be a shared process. So then in 1990, I started the creating with a group of seven people. And I chose the number seven, because it's really, you know, the brain of the human being is made so that when there is a group of seven, the brain says it's a group.
07:36 If you are six, the brain will say, oh, it's two, three euros, or three duets. The brain is made like that. But from seven, the brain says, okay, it's a bunch, it's a group, it's seven. So that's how I chose the number seven.
07:50 And then I started creating, and then it was really a work of transmission, transmission in the way of breathing, transmission in the way of standing, transmission of how can you feel the radiation from your cellular organism and all those things.
08:06 So it was really the first month was really I was not even somehow creating. I was more transmitting knowledge, information, intuition. And from there, interestingly, from this transmission, I could see how their body were reacting to my demands.
08:24 And then I could see the beginning of the new work there in their bodies at that moment. So it's a long story I made to answer you. That's great. And I wanted that was great because you're speaking a lot about solo form and the ensemble work and your relationship to that.
08:44 And the solo form, as you mentioned, it's been very central to your early work. You have a collection of solo repertoire created between 1978. in 1998 that still tours internationally, performed by dancers in your company.
08:58 And, you know, since then, a lot of your work has been ensemble, but do you still have ideas that call you to explore the solo form? Yes, yes, I've created a few solo forms since 1990 and also duets, yeah, but also many solo.
09:18 The last one I created for myself was a few years ago, I think it's five years ago. It's a solo, a three hour long solo. Last time I performed, it was in Japan. And this is a solo where I have interaction.
09:32 It's not on a stage, it was in a museum. It's a solo where I have interaction, intimate interaction with some member of the audience that will come to me and we will share a little very short talking, like 40 seconds, one minute, where they will transmit to me their innermost desire, appeal, or what they feel is next in their life and what they feel they will need some help for this next step to happen.
10:01 And then I create on the spot, I create a dance for them, but for all the audience that is around us and encircle around us. And the audience had no idea what that person told me, but it's very interesting how they get totally engaged, you know, into this dance.
10:19 It makes sense even for them somehow, but very much for the person or so who gave me a secret somehow. And so I went like that for three hours, going from one person to another one. So that's the last solo I created.
10:36 And what I like to do is also the time after I've created a solo for myself, I transmit it later to the dancers of my company. So for example, now I'm in the process of creating a new solo, and once it will be created.
10:53 but I'm not ready yet to perform it at all, what we see. And eventually it will be transmitted to the dancers in the company. Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like also this three hour durational solo that you created.
11:07 It's a solo and in a lot of ways a group work as well, because you're creating with so many members of the audience throughout these three hours. Yeah, I'm creating for them. I'm creating as a demand from them to help their process somehow.
11:26 Yeah, I'm creating right there in front of all those people. Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, it really is clear how much that both the performance element and creative process is really linked towards connecting to something a little bit.
11:47 more profound and spiritual, is that's what I'm hearing when I hear you speak. Well, it's connected to someone specific in their demand. I must say that when they are talking to me, I'm also, we are very close, but somehow I'm scanning their energy and their bodies.
12:04 So I will answer not only their verbal demand, but also what I feel from the demand of their bodies and their way of holding themselves in the space and things like that. So it's multi-layered. And I want to talk about Prelude to the Afternoon of Afon and Right of Spring, which are the works I've presented here at Push 2025.
12:31 And these are works that you premiered in 1994 and 1993, respectively, and that still tour the world today, which is a remarkable longevity and relevance. And how has the impact of the work changed as the socio-aesthetic or political context have over the years?
12:51 Or if so, how? And if not, also, I'm curious about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me smile at question because actually the first version of the music on Debussy. And it's only many years later after an orchestra in Taiwan asked me to go and play with their orchestra on Right of Spring.
13:22 And they said, don't you have another piece? Because only one piece is not much for an orchestra. And I said, yes, but you know, I have an afternoon of a phone, but I never did it on the music of Debussy.
13:36 And they said, well, let's do it. I said, OK, great. So it's true that the version with the music of Debussy was premier. And I guess it's 1994 in Taiwan. But the original choreography without that music was in, I'm not sure of the date, 1988, I think.
13:55 So yes, so now it makes me smile today because in those days, you know, we're not so much speaking about French and everything, you know, but for me it was very important that it needed a woman for me to be dancing the afternoon of a fawn and the fawn, you have to remember that the fawn is this very, very erotic and very strongly physical young animal god male being alone in the nature and just feeling the appeal of the nymphias,
14:34 the woman. And for me it was obvious that I should dance that. And it was just like something that... I don't know, that is beyond you, beyond your own decision, you know. And actually, I realized that since then, when when each time I have transmitted that solo, I have to say that I was wearing horns, you know, like the phone, he has horns, and I was at one point breaking one horn from my head and putting it on my pubic bone as a phallus.
15:06 So this is still what we are doing. But I noticed that since then, each time I have transmitted that solo to a woman of the company, it is transforming them. There is something, it's like an initiation somehow, you know.
15:23 So yeah, and once, but you know, in 1988, we were not so much talking about gender, and well, a bit, you know, but not like today, you know, today is like the subject and with many other subject ecology, everything.
15:39 Native people, everything. So, but yeah, so this, but this piece is still of today. And I must say that I'm somehow, I must say that there is something of which I am, how could I say, happy with about my work is that it seems that it does not, it does not fall into out of, you know, it's relevant.
16:08 It's always actual somehow, even a piece I created in, you know, so many years ago, 50 years ago or something, is still of today somehow. So that, that's really a joy for me to realize that yes, I tell myself, yes, my dear, you are really creating outside of society and everything you are really creating from your relationship with what is beyond, because it's, it's traveling through time.
16:34 So I guess this is a sign. Well, now I'm just, you know, maybe because I'm 69, I can dare say things like that, you know. Yeah, I think you can. And you're one of the very few Canadian contemporary dance companies, choreographers.
16:51 Well, your company has been established for, you know, as you mentioned, since 1990, with, you know, currently full-time company members and your own studios. So beyond a choreographer, you've been a long time major arts leader in the country.
17:07 And I'm curious how the challenges of arts leadership have changed for you over the past 35 years. You know, have they changed? If so, how? If not, what stays the same? I don't really, you know, for me, it's a continuum somehow.
17:26 I feel I feel my life and my creation really as a continuum. I feel somehow that I'm, you know, the voice of myself in my mind when I think is the voice of myself when I was seven years old, you know, six years old, I don't know.
17:40 So I really feel it's... It's more, this life is more about the continuum. This is primarily the continuum. And I feel the same in creation. One creation is just being born somehow from the previous one and from the actual moment of the now where I feel, okay, now what is my next steps?
18:05 So it's always related to the now, but in a continuity without me wanting it, it's continuity of course of what was before me in myself or whatever. So I feel more, so for me, the challenge has always been the same.
18:24 The challenge has always been how to create something that is totally linked with a very deeply anchored urge to put something into the world. It's always that, and that story has not changed. And it is always finding the best, the most accurate or the most precise or the most organic at the same time, way to incarnate this intuition.
19:02 So it's always that. So, and I don't feel so much that there has been big moments or changes. Someone could say, oh, going from solo world to group work. Yes, maybe, but not so much. It's a total continuity somehow.
19:24 I think you were asking also the challenge as our director or as general manager of my company. It's always the same, the challenge you have to deal with your budget that are never enough somehow. And you have to be extremely creative, not only in your work.
19:43 but in your way of using the money that you have, very creative, very, very creative. So it's creation, it's happening not only in the art, but also in the managing of everything. You have to find solutions, find solutions all the time.
20:05 Like a problem is an occasion for a new solution, for a new exploration, you know? So sometimes when people in my company, sometimes they have a problem and they call me or they come to see me and say, yeah, give me, give me, give me your problem.
20:21 I love it. Because I like to be in this situation where I have to create instantaneously a solution. But I must say that some of the times, wow, it's a, wow. Yeah, I have to think for myself, I have to think two or three days to find a solution, you know?
20:42 But it's always a challenge to create. And it's always mostly a joy. For me, it's a game. Directing a company and creating works is a game. It's like playing, playing with the forces of life, playing with the forces of beauty, of truth, of revelation.
21:02 It's a game. It's a game where you are playing with elements, you know? So there is a joy for me in playing. Like a kid, I play. I play creation. I play organizing. I play, yeah. Yeah, and I still like it.
21:24 I must tell you, I still like it so much. It's like great joy for me to create and to embark dancers into this process. It's really an exciting joy. And I must say that sometimes, you know, I arrive just a few minutes before 1 o'clock because my creation time is from 1 o'clock to 5.30 in the morning.
21:47 The dancers, they warm up, they do their technique, everything. But you know, when it's one minute to one, I'm like, I'm like excited. And we're like, I'm like a kid, you know? It's going to start, you know?
21:58 And it's funny, you know? I'm always excited. And just because I'm very, you know, at the same time, I'm very precise, you know? So I wait for it to be very one o'clock before I start. I don't start two minutes before, you know?
22:11 So this excitement, I can tell you, I assure you, you can ask my dancers. I have it almost every time, you know, this excitement to start at one o'clock, you know? It's really clear listening to you how you have managed to continue to create work and be an arts creation to the playfulness.
22:38 It really is clear that, you know, at what point it's a book. And so I would love to just hear about what you are currently researching in your creative process. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, now, you know, I'm not only creating things for the stage, or not only creating for events that are not happening on the stage, let's say outside, like I did this summer.
23:03 Summer I created a new piece that is only to be performed outside, going from village to village, like in a caravan. But I'm also creating works for video installation and VR and photography and sculpture.
23:20 So I'm also in those processes these days. This process is happening. And I'm also, I will have a work premiere next July in Stuttgart. And yeah, in this piece, I've already created the lights for it last week.
23:38 and I'm really excited. I really think, because I also create the lights and the costume and the stenography and everything, so I'm so happy because I really created wonderful lights. Like really myself, because I was having this idea before going in the theater, yeah, I mean do this like that and we'll see, you know, but it was beyond my expectation.
24:01 So beautiful. So I'm really excited with this new, new creation that will be coming up soon. Yeah, yeah. Great. Do we get to know the name of it? Does it have a name? Not yet, right? Yeah, okay. Just keep, you know, keep, maybe, maybe it's a name in progress, you know, and I'm, the name is, I will see, you know, just before I have to establish everything officially for the premiere in Institute Garden that the name will be there for now.
24:31 Not yet. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and just hearing you speak about your practice like energizes me hearing your passion about it. So thank you so much for sharing, you know, this with me and for our listeners.
24:46 Gabrielle, thank you so much. It was a pleasure and having your smile in front of me during this time was great. Thank you so much. You just heard Gabrielle Martin in conversation with Marie Schwenard, whose works prelude to the afternoon of Fawn and Rite of Spring will be performed on February 3rd at the Chilliwack Cultural Center as part of the 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, supported by the Government of Quebec.
25:14 I'm Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles. Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts.
25:28 For more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca and on the next Push Play. Sometimes it unlocks something that is more impressive than if you kind of bring some sort of like high budget thing into it or you kind of have this big image like the simplicity of just like this moment that you're sharing with in a space with some people,
26:00 that's the thing that gets us going.
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| 17 Sep 2024 | Ep. 29 - Dancing in the Rain (2015) | 00:24:42 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Sylvain Émard of Sylvain Émard Danse. Show Notes Gabrielle and Sylvain discuss:
About Sylvain Émard A prolific and internationally respected artist, Sylvain Émard created his own dance company Sylvain Émard Danse in 1990, quickly establishing a reputation for a very original style. Highly theatrical at first, his work soon evolved into a more formal approach to dance. Ever since Ozone, Ozone (1987), his first solo, up to Rhapsodie (2022), he has been exploring the territory of human nature through the force and strength of the body. His repertoire now includes over thirty original pieces that have had a resounding impact all over the world. Renowned for his refined style and precise movement, his presentation in 2009 of Le Grand Continental® at the Festival TransAmériques must have come to some as a surprise. Inspired by line dancing, this unique piece has featured 3,000 non-dancers in several performances across Canada, the United States, Mexico, South Korea, New Zealand, Chile, Germany and Austria, attracting some 125,000 spectators. In September 2017, Le Super Méga Continental boasted 375 dancers in Montréal to celebrate the city’s 375th anniversary in a monumental fashion. Sylvain Émard’s unique style has led to invitations to work as guest choreographer in theatre, opera and cinema. These collaborations include his joining forces with Robert Lepage in 2005 to work on the opera 1984 by Lorin Maazel, presented namely at Covent Garden in London and at La Scala in Milan. At the behest of theater director René-Richard Cyr, Sylvain Émard is creating the choreographies for the musical Demain matin, Montréal m’attend at Théâtre du Nouveau Monde. Sylvain Émard has received numerous prestigious awards, such as the Jean A. Chalmers Choreographic Award (1996). He is also co-founder of the Circuit-Est centre chorégraphique. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded in what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:22 Gabrielle Martin 00:39 Gabrielle Martin 01:02 Gabrielle Martin 01:15 Gabrielle Martin 01:31 Gabrielle Martin 01:44 Sylvain Émard 01:50 Sylvain Émard 02:22 Gabrielle Martin 02:23 Gabrielle Martin 02:38 Sylvain Émard 02:46 Gabrielle Martin 03:24 Sylvain Émard 03:32 Sylvain Émard 03:52 Gabrielle Martin 03:58 Sylvain Émard 04:08 Sylvain Émard 04:32 Gabrielle Martin 04:47 Sylvain Émard 04:56 Sylvain Émard 05:19 Gabrielle Martin 05:29 Sylvain Émard 05:34 Sylvain Émard 05:51 Gabrielle Martin 06:05 Sylvain Émard 06:09 Gabrielle Martin 06:13 Sylvain Émard 06:17 Gabrielle Martin 06:37 Sylvain Émard 06:46 Gabrielle Martin 06:50 Sylvain Émard 06:54 Sylvain Émard 07:21 Gabrielle Martin 07:36 Sylvain Émard 07:51 Sylvain Émard 08:27 Sylvain Émard 08:46 Gabrielle Martin 09:10 Gabrielle Martin 09:24 Sylvain Émard 09:30 Sylvain Émard 09:59 Sylvain Émard 10:36 Sylvain Émard 10:57 Gabrielle Martin 11:10 Sylvain Émard 11:13 Gabrielle Martin 11:23 Gabrielle Martin 11:39 Sylvain Émard 11:42 Gabrielle Martin 11:44 Sylvain Émard 11:48 Gabrielle Martin 12:08 Sylvain Émard 12:10 Sylvain Émard 12:25 Sylvain Émard 12:38 Gabrielle Martin 12:48 Gabrielle Martin 13:07 Sylvain Émard 13:20 Sylvain Émard 13:55 Sylvain Émard 14:18 Sylvain Émard 14:56 Sylvain Émard 15:24 Gabrielle Martin 15:47 Sylvain Émard 15:49 Sylvain Émard 16:16 Sylvain Émard 16:45 Gabrielle Martin 16:59 Gabrielle Martin 17:26 Sylvain Émard 17:33 Gabrielle Martin 17:44 Sylvain Émard 17:53 Gabrielle Martin 17:57 Sylvain Émard 18:00 Gabrielle Martin 18:32 Sylvain Émard 18:37 Sylvain Émard 19:16 Sylvain Émard 19:49 Sylvain Émard 20:13 Sylvain Émard 20:35 Gabrielle Martin 20:54 Sylvain Émard 21:05 Sylvain Émard 21:35 Sylvain Émard 21:50 Sylvain Émard 22:13 Sylvain Émard 22:56 Gabrielle Martin 22:59 Sylvain Émard 23:08 Tricia Knowles 23:37 Tricia Knowles 23:58 | |||
| 09 Nov 2023 | Ep. 1 - Ramanenjana: Public dance as political action | 00:41:26 | |
Gaby Saranouffi and Simona Deaconescu discuss how dance can serve as an act of protest. Ramanenjana runs Jan 19th-21st at PuSh Festival. Show Notes A captivating docufiction performance, presented with The Dance Centre and Inner Fish, Ramanenjana is about a dance that made history, when thousands of people in Madagascar danced to drums in the capital city for weeks, as if hallucinating. Co-choreographers Simona Deaconescu and Gaby Saranouffi join Gabrielle to discuss the social role of dance, what is mass dance, and more. Co-presented with The Dance Centre and Inner Fish Performance Co. Here are some of the questions that Gabrielle, Simona and Gaby tackle together:
About Simona and Gaby Simona Deaconescu is a Romanian choreographer and filmmaker working across genres and formats. Shifting between fiction and objective reality, her work investigates liminal corporealities by meticulously looking at social constructs, sometimes with irony and dark humor. She founded Tangaj Collective, an interdisciplinary art and science company, and serves as the artistic director of the Bucharest International Dance Film Festival. Born in Tamatave, Gaby Saranouffi is a Malagasy choreographer and art activist currently residing in South Africa. She is one of the most influential female artists pioneering contemporary dance in Madagascar, serving as artistic director for the I’TROTA International Dance Festival and the Vahinala Dance Company. Saranouffi draws inspiration from Madagascar’s tumultuous history to cultivate a distinct aesthetic in her choreography. Land Acknowledgement Simona joins from Bucharest, Romania, and Gaby from Johannesburg, South Africa. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:02] Hello and welcome. I'm Gabrielle Martin, director of Programing with the PuSh Festival. Today's episode highlights the role of dance as public manifestation. I'm speaking with Simona Deaconescu and Gaby Saranouffi, the co-choreographers of Ramanenjana which is being presented at the PuSH Festival January 19th to 21st, 2024. Ramanenjana is a docufiction performance about a dance that made history. It examines dance's societal role and how colonialism may have spread misconceptions about an extraordinary movement. Simona is a Romanian choreographer and filmmaker, working across genres and formats, shifting between fiction and objective reality. Her work investigates liminal corporalities by meticulously looking at social constructs, sometimes with irony and dark humour. Gaby Saranouffi is a Malagasy choreographer and art activist currently residing in South Africa. She is one of the most influential female artists pioneering contemporary dance in Madagascar. She draws inspiration from Madagascar's tumultuous history to cultivate a distinct choreographic aesthetic. I'm excited for you to hear our discussion that highlights their collaboration. Part of this interview was rerecorded at a later date due to a power outage and poor connection Gaby was experiencing during the initial interview. Here's my conversation with Simona and Gaby.
Gabrielle [00:01:27] I am in conversation with Gaby and Simona from the unceded ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Thank you for joining me, Simona and Gaby.
Simona [00:01:44] Thank you for having us.
Gabrielle [00:01:46] And Gaby and Simona, will you share where you are speaking to us from today?
Simona [00:01:51] Sure. I'm Simona Deaconescu. I'm a Romanian choreographer and filmmaker, and I am currently speaking from Bucharest.
Gaby [00:02:05] Well, I am Gaby Saranouffi, I am a dancer/choreographer from Madagascar, co-choreographer with Simona Deaconescu with Ramanenjana. And yes, I am calling from South Africa.
Gabrielle [00:02:20] I'd love it if you could tell us about the inception of this project and how did this historical event of a collective dancing fever in Madagascar emerge as the subject for this piece? And how did you come into collaboration with each other?
Simona [00:02:35] Maybe, strange enough, it's me, Simona, that started this, this project. I started to study mass dances in late 2019, but got into this research deeply in starting in 2020. I first did a project about another mass dance that happened in Europe in Strasbourg in 1518, and yeah, it was called Chroeomania. So this is where I first got into contact with this concept, right? A medieval concept called choreomania, or like better known today now is also like a bit of a I know it's in vogue, it's in fashion to talk about it. It's also called a dance epidemic. So I started to study this event that happened mainly in medieval Europe or like late medieval Europe in what we now know, as I don't know, Germany, France, Belgium, around the river Reine; so in that period and in that in those places. So studying this event and trying to understand more about them and also to understand how people got to call this mass dances, then epidemics or like choreomania sort of crazed dances I, I went deeper in my research and I found some notes, let's say some connections with other events that were kind of similar, but not similar, but kind of similar and happened in the 19th century in Africa or like in Brazil. And one of them caught my interest and it was Ramanenjana. So then I decided that maybe I wanted to do like a mini series. This is not something very I know accustomed or normal for then like to create shows that that in a mini series like and feel more like in. But but I had this idea to create like a mini series and also to try to involve other people in my, in my research. Um, yeah. And in long story short, in order to be able to research this to get a bit of funding, to find collaborators, I applied to a program that was called and you still called forecast. It was, it's a program that kind of supports artists worldwide but is based in Berlin and this is a mentorship program. So I got selected with this project by Mathilde Monnier, and from there Mathilde Monnier connected me with Gaby. So this is how we started to work together. I wanted to partner with whom to work, I wanted to bring like my research about the mass audiences and dance epidemics. But I also wanted to get in touch with someone that knows the history of Malagasy dance, that is local that have worked in this field before and wanted to co-create this with me. So this is how me and Gaby, me and Gaby got together online.
Gabrielle [00:06:16] I'm so fascinated by the subject of this work or the initial concept of this dancing epidemic or choreo, choreo
Simona [00:06:27] Mania
Gabrielle [00:06:27] Mania. Yeah, I am curious to know, I'll just ask one more question about this. What were some of the similarities and differences between the choreomanias of medieval Europe and of, say, Madagascar?
Simona [00:06:47] First of all, I must I must admit that I do not consider them to be choreomanias. So I do not agree with the people that have said that these are dance epidemics or they are connected in any way with disease or mass psychosis or something like this. For me it was more interested to see how dance was immersed in the social fabric and in the social life and to see if there are in history some examples in which dance appears, I don't know in, in a method in which it can change the society. So this was my my interest and I was looking for these things. I never really looked for the - although this is what you find when you look for it, the crazy dancing. So I was not looking for the crazy dancing. I was more looking for the historical context in which they happened for the duration of of the event, for how people collaborated between between them, then why this mass dance event happened. So from this perspective, I think the similarities lay in its I don't know, I will say it's contagious that same phenomenon. Right. Because it starts with maybe a group, a smaller group of people, but then it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. And then another similarity is the duration, meaning that people can dance for a long period of time. Now, this is, of course, debatable, you know, because also these historical documents have been written in certain contexts by certain people. So we cannot now, we cannot, I don't know, say that it's 100% truth, the truth what we now read. So it might be also some fictionalized version might, might, might also appear, but they are durational. So they happen, they can last days, they can last weeks. So it is this kind of durational event and then they tend to appear in periods of crisis. So when there is some type of crisis, either I don't know it's a political crises or it comes on a medical crisis, you know, of an actual disease. You know, it happens in a period in which like an actual epidemic or like an actual disease or like they have this mixed, I don't know, characteristics of being some kind of political in a way a bit political, but also ritualistic and also in Europe. So in Europe also, they had this ritualistic character, of course, in a completely different way with the completely different, I don't know, form let's say, and aesthetic, but they did have the ritualistic approach more like to towards the pagan, right. It was not towards the Christianity, but the bit towards the, the former pagan Gods that were in Europe. So yeah. And and I think the biggest and biggest difference I found and that's also why I do not believe they are related in any way but they have been forcefully related by people that wanted to put them together in a way, you know, they say like "oh this is like when people are dancing on the streets with thousands, there must be some crazy thing happening there or a disease." But one big difference is the fact that Ramanenjana had a really clear political context in which it happened. So it like the connections with the with what actually happened and how this event started out very clearly described in documents. While in Europe, they are kind of I don't know, they are, let's say, the talk of mystery. So some things are true. Some things you must imagine. There is, there is not, that you cannot prove this thing or this other thing. But in Madagascar also, it was more recent. It was in 1863. So it's it's in the 19th century. It's closer to our times. But it had this very clear political and social context.
Gabrielle [00:11:28] I definitely want to come back to that. I'm really curious about how that is addressed through the work. But first, I want to get more of a sense of your working relationship in your collaboration, because as I understand, this is the first time you've collaborated, and I'm curious, what are some of the differences and similarities between your choreographic practices?
Gaby [00:11:49] Well, yeah, it was a very interesting way of collaborating between the two choreographers that is quite, have a different way of creating. For instance myself, I come from a background of the African/Island artistic creative landscape whereby my work is mainly focused in the things that are happening mostly in Madagascar, but also happening in the world. And my work is I like to focus my work with the women's societal problems, issues as well. And then with Ramanenjana and Simona, Simona is also coming with a background of European, if I may say, Simona you can correct me, you'll correct me later or you'll add something. But what that I think makes us to meet is that because of our both works are conceptual, you know, as much as I have roots as an African or people who come from the island. But my work is, is conceptual. So I think also that's the reason why when Simona was creating the piece Ramanenjana and then looking for having collaborations with Malagasy choreographers, and she was introduced to many brilliant choreographers from Madagascar. And then she chooses me. She approaches me because I think because of that conceptual; also, you know, when you have a choreographer want to collaborate with someone, you feel like 'yes ah the work of this person is much more near by myself than than the others. So that's how we we, we met. But, but along the way and what I found interesting is that, you know, the culture shock also during the research that we make you know I am from Madagascar, she's from, from Romania, we both have a different way of working and creating. And then... how can I say that? It's like, it's like the air and the, and the light of the candle, for instance, if the air is blowing too much the candle can die, you know, unless if the candle, the air of the candle is blown just enough then, then the lights continue lighting. So me personally, I was really enjoying the process of our creation. But then mostly I am really, really happy with the really happy and oh yeah amazed that we've already journeyed together with Ramanenjana, in exchange with the team and Simona .
Gabrielle [00:15:06] Thanks for giving us that extra bit of kind of insight about your perspectives and a little bit about the process. And I'm curious to hear more about this process and how the work evolved from the initial concept when Simona first met you to what it has become as a finished work. And yeah, and maybe you can talk about the process involved in that. So both how the idea of the piece evolved through the process and what that process looked like in terms of, you know, the time spent together in Madagascar or in Romania or...
Gaby [00:15:48] Yeah. First of all, we started with documenting information from the internet, from the reading, books exchange, also within myself and Simona through the Internet, because Simona and I, we never met actually! I met with - that's another eipsode, I'll tell about that but I met the team recently now inside Africa but without Simona I don't know why I thought destiny... but yes but in any event but we are always in touch, right, thanks to the internet I can see her through the technology. So yes and also for research about the documentation. And then I think the most important that I found that is very profound and give the piece a bit of shape is there is the residency in Madagascar, in February, we met with Olombelo Ricky, that is the composer of the music of Ramanenjana. He's someone that helps us a lot in terms of information. He has, he has a lot a lots of information about Ramanenjana. Also Simona was having a meeting on documentation. But what was interesting is that the weighing of the information that we got, you know, from the the Internet point of view documentary research in Europe and then the one oral in Madagascar of which I say that in Madagascar, we have an oral tradition that is transmitted from generation to generation. There is no written stuff, you know, if you look for written stuff at that time, even now, there are people writing, but it's not much. But at that time it's very rare to find something written on such a, such an event that happened. So what we have is only information that's written from the people from outside of the country, which is like, in the piece is the missionaries and the people who were sent from the outside countries, the British and French and Belgians etc. they came and then they write their own point of view about this Ramanenjana. And, and then and then it's not probably the truth. So, so that's why it was important for us to have the, the residency in Madagascar to meet the real people, the wise people, of which we got a bit of confusion but as surety at the same time, because, you know, we as we have a lot of, a lot of information about the Ramanenjana. For instance, one of the wise men says that the Ramanenjana is a, is a message that is, that is coming from the queen, Queen Mother, from, there is a mountain in Madagascar called Ambondrombe, whereby all the people that is passed away, their spirit lives in that mountain. So the spirit of the, the spirit of Ranavalona, Ranavalona 1 wanted to do, wanted to send a message to her son Radama. So then through that message, she enters in spiritual context within the people that is alive and then, and then the people who have that Ramanenjana they dance, you know, and they dance from their minds no stopping. And within months and months and months and travel from Ambondrombe, which is very far until Antananarivo. I don't know. Yeah, it's very very far so they travel for mmonth to month. Once the message arrived to Antananarivo the Ramanenjana just stops, funny enough. But anyway So. So these are the information that we got and Also some information we got from other wise people says that Ramanenjana is a sickness that makes people sick. They have a stiff, stiff convulsions and have red eyes, you know. So yes, in terms of, in terms of the choice of the quality of the movement how we, we want to define this Ramanenjana that we never see. And it was quite challenging, you know, sometimes Simona come to me like "Oh Gabrielle I don't know, we don't know how, what kind of... what is this? This working is not working. This is not..." So sometimes we, we tend to, not to say 'hey, everything does not work,' you know? But with time, we managed to define the quality of the movement, of which, in the piece we choose to be minimalistic. We don't want to dance like 'gah-doom, gah-doom, gah-doom' like now maybe people think that is from Africa. So now we're gonna do 'African Dance,' we've made grants and blah blah, blah. Anyway, the prototype that I'm talking about this always, people have a preconceived idea when they heard about oh, 'exotic, I learned African' etc.. But anyway, anyway, it's okay. But yes. So then that drove us to the quality of the movement. The minimalistic and the stiffness and the togetherness having these oxygen of being together and being repetitive. So when you watch this show, you'll see kind of like, like robotic movements. Yes, of course, they have their own, own quality through text of which Simona is going to talk about that later, maybe can elaborate. But also they seek some parts of the, of the piece. It was interesting in that it was also linked to what we, we heard about the information about Ramanenjana which is not really sure what exactly is this Ramanenjana, so the process was very, very, very interesting of which then when I saw the piece finally not on video but I saw at the JOMBA! Festival in South Africa here went 'this one? Yes this one.' I was so happy, you know, to see the artists live and touch them and and talk and all that, you know finally. It's, it's really one of the piece that have a highlight.
Gabrielle [00:23:20] Thank you so much. It's so great to get a sense of what a rich process it has been and all the different historical information, but also, you know, historical speculation as well as the oral histories, the yeah, the written documentation, the oral histories, the all the different, you know, folklore around it and how that all influenced your... The final work. Did you have anything you wanted to add? Simona
Simona [00:23:52] Yeah. I mean, yeah, regarding this aesthetical aspect. I think for me it was very, very important not to do like a reenactment of the Roamanenjana. I didn't do this also with the 1518 epidemic also, and next year I'm going to build another episode on another mass dance event. So for me, it's important not to do this process of reinterpretion, reinterpretation of the event. Why? Because, first of all, we don't know. So the documentation is very shady, so we don't know if those descriptions are actually what people actually did. So yeah, for me, like this is like an ethical question of not wanting to, I don't know, do like a re-, you know, like this kind of recontextualization or remix or anything that is connected with, with this idea of rethinking what, what happened. But mostly the piece and this series talks about the context in which dance appears, how other people look at dance or how we judge dance in the public sphere there when there is no stage, when there is no convention, when there is no understanding of what will happen. So what happens when dance gets out leash, you know, and takes the public sphere? So this is one one of the things. Of course, the problematic thing was, especially in in Madagascar for me, even though I do not consider myself like completely a European, you know, like living in Romania, this border between Orient and Occident is like... But even with this, even with this background, I didn't feel very comfortable of, you know, like and I also know that the because we had this discussion, she doesn't really she appreciates very much tradition in everything but she does contemporary dance and she likes to explore this aesthetic of contemporary dance. So yeah, this, this is one aspect that I also wanted to clarify for us, it was really important from the beginning not to to do reinterpretation or reenactment of that specific, of that specific dance. And even it's more interesting for the audience, you know, because we talk so much about this dance and we'd say so many clues. And then there is this, you know, mystery of how would this dance actually look like? And I think it makes it a bit more open to everyone. And although it speaks about this specific event in history that apparently repeated several times, I think it also talks about us, all of us, that we can, you know, like we can take charge of the public sphere, we can manifest our bodies. We can use, you know, the I know the legacy that we have from from from our communities in order to play an active role in in society. So for me, even if we don't know exactly what what happened and let's say we received the wrong seven answers and we put all these seven answers in the piece. So everything what we, what came out of the research is now presented in the piece. For us, this is the interesting part, how this I don't know, marginal, specific kind of unknown event was able to create such an important, you know, manifestation and make some changes. And I know now hundreds of years after this, like create this possibility for us to have this, discussion. So this is very rare in history for events like this to to exist.
Gabrielle [00:28:10] And I want to understand a bit more when you talk about what it reflects about society and the role of dance through the text that you developed. So, you know, you've spoken to how a lot of this research and the different perspectives have made their way into the work. How were the characters who have voice in the text, how were those characters developed and what ideas or questions are present in the subtext? So I guess I'm curious about you know, there's the text and then, and then there's this greater critique I hear you talking about, about, you know, how we manifest our bodies in the public space and play an active role in society and how dance can be part of that.
Simona [00:28:48] So in this piece, although there's a lot of text, it's all about the subtext. So because the the language that we have created kind of says something through the mouth and through the words, but say something else to the movement and the real message and the real text, let's say, the real idea, you get it if you pay attention to both. So it's almost like developing two languages in the same time. It's like a code because all these events, they were code. And you have to understand the code. So practically what we did with this language is that we try to convey a message by using the words that people actually used. So we're not inventing other words, but actually using the archive material per se, okay with little modifications, you know, because of the language so that people can understand it better. But 80% of the text that we are using, it's archive text, it's not invented. And but by using this language to fictionalize it in a way in which people can understand the subtext. Another thing that we did is to have this recipe that all that happens on the screen, because a lot of the show is interview with Malagasy people. What happens on the screen represents contemporary Malagasy life and the perspective of Malagasy people on this event that, and why this is important, why it's still present in, in the minds, let's say in the collective minds of Malagasy people. So whatever happens on the screen, all that happens on the screen, are interviews that we made with people, different scientists, different wise people, as Gaby, Gaby said, shamans, anthropology, professors of anthropology from Madagascar. And what happens on the stage is actually a critique of and represents the text that we took from the archives and different perspectives or the perspective of the, let's say, English doctors that were the first one that said that this is a disease. So when Joe Davidson, he was there, so he was the one putting this event on the map of the diseases because he heard certain things and he did this link, you know. So and then we have, I don't know, the French religious voices that come from priests that said, oh, no, this is like, you know, like a possession. This is something, you know, demonic or things like this. Then we have even Malagasy perception. So like we have Dr. Andrianjafy that wrote a thesis about this. He was a Malagasy, but he was very influenced by the French medicine school. He studied in Montpellier, for example. So we try to put all these perspectives together. Of course, it has a funny effect. So most of the parts are funny, but it is done on purpose, you know, because yeah, I mean, it's hilarious what they say about this event. It's hilarious how they perceive this this event. But I'm convinced that if a similar event would happen today, I think whatever would happen in the world, people will still have this type, you know, of language and of talking about untamed dance. I don't think this happened only in the medieval times in Europe or like 19th century in Africa. I don't think so. I think if today, for example, in Romania, I don't know about Canada, but in Romania, if like a group of 300 people start dancing on the street, no matter if they have or don't have a message, if this event just appears like this and it continues for days, and if you feel that this then doesn't resemble something with the dance that you know, I know something that is warm, that is aesthetic, that is beautiful, that enchants you; in a way, people will still say 'what's wrong with this people? They are crazy, they are sick, they are possessed, they are drugged, they are all these kind of things.' So that's why I think Ramanenjana it's a good example for how we look at movement and free movement today, because I'm convinced that if this type of event would happen today. We will still have these characters that we put on stage. They will still exist, you know, the voice of religion, the voice of medicine, the voice of I don't know, super science, or like so. So yeah. And what's, and one thing that I also discussed with Gaby is the fact that what is missing is the voice of the dancers. In none of these events, the voice of the dancers is documented, none. You don't, these people that documented this event never asked a dancer, you know like 'why are you dancing' or like what, you know, what is, why are they doing this? You know? And that's also a thing that we tend to do today, you know, to say what the other person is thinking or believing or why this other person is acting like that without... I don't know making a simple question, you know, to that person, like, why are you doing this? Yeah.
Gabrielle [00:34:49] Yeah. So this is the last question. Gaby, I'm curious, after all your research, why do you think these people were dancing in the streets.
Speaker 4 [00:35:02] The reason why the Malagasy people danced Ramanenjana at that time, because I think dance is so much linked in our culture. Dance is a way of showing emotions. Dance is a way of linking the spiritual world and the living world. Dance is simply life, you know, in our culture in Madagascar, we have dance that is specializing for when someone is born until someone is dead. In this case of Ramanenjana, I think the people want to say a message that 'do not sell the land, it's our land.' So at the same time, also, they want to protect their identity and culture by simply dancing and singing. That's where Ramanenjana came from not fighting with guns and creating a war. But to convey this message, strong message, by simply dancing.
Gabrielle [00:36:17] Yea h, I think that one thing that this piece is kind of addressing is, you know, dance as a form of revolt or as you've talked about, a form of manifesting itself in public space. And what are those implications, and especially in a colonial time in Madagascar, and we still see you know the inequities between the global north and the global south in terms of, you know, just access to Internet, visas to tour work...
Simona [00:36:48] So practically, we also had like I mostly believe that this was some kind of protest or I wanted to believe that this was a protest, you know, that people were dancing because of a protest. But from what they found out also from Gaby, but other people I talked to, they do not see this as a protest, but as a protection ritual or like a group protection ritual or ritual through which they are protecting their identity, their way of doing things, their kind of social interaction. So it was something more like, like, like this. And also we talked about like if, if this is political or not, you know, this big discussion that we say today that everything is political. And we also had this discussion, you know, how much, let's say, politics were actually involved in in the dance and also very different opinions in between also Malagasy wise men and wise women and men and people they also have different opinions over how much political involvement was in this, in this dance. So yeah, this is the situation.
Gabrielle [00:38:09] Awesome. And I have one more last question just super quick because you talk about it as a docufiction and is that because about you said like about 80% of the text is drawn from historic sources, but the rest is fictionalized. So that's why you call it a docufiction, or no?
Simona [00:38:24] No, actually, I'm... You know that in performance we have this format of lecture performance. And in let's say in film, we have this format of doc fiction. Maybe it would kind of go into the same category. So for me that I also come from film, so my first studies were in film. I'm still working as a filmmaker. I'm actually trying to kind of mix the both, both of them. So the show cannot be named as a lecture performance, you know, because it's more spectacular than a lecture performance. It usually is. So I felt that goes more into this idea of a docu-fiction. You know, when you mix documentary, documentary information with fiction, but also it contains fragments or parts of the process you went through while doing the show. So this is also an important aspect of the of the docu fiction, let's say genre in a way. So yeah, that's why. So it also itself referred it creates this self- I don't know-
Gabrielle [00:39:38] Referential
Simona [00:39:38] -referential, yes.
Gabrielle [00:39:42] Self-referencing, yeah. Well thank you so much. It's been so great to get more insight into this work, into your collaboration, into all the research, into the, the subtext, into, you know, all this speculation that goes into the, the meanings behind this historic event and how you've treated it for the stage. We're really so excited to have this be an opening show for the festival. So January 19th to 21st in partnership with The Dance Centre. We're really looking forward to having you in January for this upcoming PuSh festival. So thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me.
Simona [00:40:17] And have a nice day.
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| 19 Dec 2024 | Ep. 47 - The Space Between Words (De glace / From Ice) | 00:18:24 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Anne-Marie Ouellet, whose work, De glace / From Ice, will be presented at the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. You can catch her show from January 31 to February 2 at the Roundhouse in Vancouver, in association with Théâtre la Seizième and the Vancouver International Children’s Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle and Anne-Marie discuss:
About Anne-Marie Ouellet Anne-Marie Ouellet lives and works in Montreal (Quebec), Canada. Her interdisciplinary practice explores matters pertaining to the standards that govern behaviors in the public and private space. Through the elaboration and experimentation of different types of behaviors, Anne-Marie Ouellet creates organizational structures in the form of interventions in collaboration with groups of participants who wear her clothes-uniforms in the urban space. Her work mainly gravitates around the notions of individualism and collectivity, standardization and regimentation. With an MFA from Université du Quebec à Montréal (2011), Anne-Marie Ouellet has exhibited in Quebec at Musée d'art de Joliette (2022), Le lieu (Quebec, 2019), Verticale (Laval, 2017), Optica (Montreal, 2015), Maison des arts de Laval (2013), Galerie de l'UQAM, Montreal (2011), Manif d'art 4, Quebec (2008), and at the Musée Régional de Rimouski (2005). She also participated in events and artist residencies in Quebec (Sagamie, Alma, (2020), Axenéo7, Gatineau (2016), PRAXIS, Ste-Thérèse (2012) and DARE-DARE, Montreal (2012)), France (FRAC/Alsace, Strasbourg (2006)), and Germany (B_Tour Festival, Berlin (2013) et Oberweilt e.V., Stuttgart (2007)). Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Anne-Marie joins the conversation from Ottawa, and recognizes the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation as the traditional owners of the land and honors their culture and history. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:01 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights opening up the space between words and the light of the Northern sun.
00:18 I'm speaking with Anne-Marie Ouellette, one of the lead artists behind a glass, or From Ice in English, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 31st to February 2nd, 2025, with both English and French presentations.
00:33 Step into a frozen otherworld where friendship transcends the mortal realm in this mesmerizing tale of two girls bound by an unbreakable connection. Inspired by a Nordic literary gem, From Ice weaves its enchantment through smoke, light, and dreamlike disorientation, as ethereal voices guide spectators through snowy obscurity.
00:53 Laudebin was founded by Nancy Boucier, Anne-Marie Ouellette, and Thomas Sineum. Together they have created seven theatrical and installation works featuring original stage designs. Anne-Marie is Professor of Theatre at the University of Ottawa, a researcher-creator.
01:10 She specializes in directing non-actors in avant-garde contemporary creations. Here is my conversation with Anne-Marie. And so, just before we dive into talking a bit more about Dick Glass and about Laudebin, I want to acknowledge that I am joining the conversation from the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh.
01:38 I am a settler on these lands. Part of my ongoing education has been reading through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's final report summary, and also really utilizing the Yellowhead Institute as an educational resource.
01:54 We're coming towards the end of 2024, and at the beginning of the year, Yellowhead released their calls to action accountability a 2023 status update so just reviewing the year the year in review with regard to the calls to action and it really you know stood out to me that you know they shared within since eight years in the eight years since the release of the report and the 94 calls to action only 81 or rather 81 remain unfulfilled and zero were completed in 2023 and actually they stopped doing these annual reports because of that kind of dire outcome basically the lack of meaningful progress towards those calls to action and they identified for really key measurement calls to action you know and just identified that without basically meaningful instituted measurement the reality is that we don't have the data necessary to measure whether or not whether or not a lot of the remaining calls to action are complete,
03:02 there's no systems to measure it. And yeah, let alone whether Canada is making any meaningful progress towards the completion of these calls to action. So just reflecting on that as we come to the close of 2024.
03:16 Yeah. Anne-Marie, where are you joining the conversation from today? Today I'm from my office in Ottawa at Ottawa University. Ottawa is located on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation.
03:34 Thank you. And so the glass is based on a Nordic tale. Can you talk about the source of inspiration, why you chose this tale, how you've adapted it or interpreted it for the glass? Yes, absolutely. So yes, the glass is an adaptation of a great classic from Norwegian literature called The Ice Palace and written by Thierry Vessas in 1962.
04:01 It's a very beautiful and mysterious novel that tells the story of two young girls called named Sis and Un. Sis and Un are both 11 years old and one day they're just suddenly struck by this intense and powerful connection.
04:19 Is it love? Is it friendship or friendship? That's not the point. It's something very stronger, something that changes them deeply and instantly. This age, 11, the age of the character is very important because at 11 you're right on the edge just between childhood and adulthood.
04:43 And every experience is very incredibly intense. Every experience feels incredibly intense. Actually, it's the first time with the domain that we're creating a show based on a story. Normally, as you, when you saw Whiteout, we built from different sources of inspiration to create a non-narrative experience.
05:08 But this novel, this Vézaz novel is so open and leaves so much to the reader's imagination. So we thought that left us enough room to create a multi-sensory experience. Yeah, and a multi-sensory experience, and you're referencing that the narrative is kind of like porous enough because it relates to your practice of generally working with non-linear narrative.
05:39 And in your artistic approach, you talk about opening up the space between words, allowing the unspeakable to emerge and the use of fragmented forms that privilege discontinuity so that meaning is not forcibly inoculated but emerges on its own.
05:56 Can you elaborate on how you create an environment that fosters this emergence of meaning for your audience? Yes, well, we try to create, as you said, the sensory experience to touch the senses of the spectator before speaking to their reason.
06:14 So for that, we try to bring the people inside the fictional space in the center of the fictional space so they can imagine the story in real time with us. We think that leaving room for everyone's imagination allows us to reach a wide audience.
06:34 The Last is not a show for children, neither a show for adults, it's a show for everyone, age eight and up. And everyone will manage their own experience. This novel, The High Palace, is not a show for children, but the main characters are children, children who are never patronized, always taken seriously.
07:00 The poetry is also very present in Vézaz's writing. Many things are suggested without being confirmed, and mystery covers from beginning to end. So during the process, we worked to magnify this mystery, to keep it alive.
07:19 So the stage is very misty. The light that spreads through the fog wrap the audience, bringing them with us onto a frozen lake at dawn. The sound of Iran Man is also very important for us. And for The Last, it is broadcast through headphones.
07:40 This offers a very intimate connection between the audience and the characters who are heard very closely without needing to project. That way, the sunscapes reach us in an absolutely enveloping way.
07:54 And so you're already speaking about your visual. aesthetic, which is so powerful and so iconic to your work. Can you describe the visual aesthetic of Laudubin, beyond the glass, even though obviously the glass is very much in this continuation of this approach?
08:17 And what influences your approach to incorporating these elements in your work? Laudubin was founded by three persons, so me, Thomas Cineau, the sun designer, and Nancy Bussière, the light designer. And we always work together from the beginning.
08:34 First meeting, we will ask everyone, what do you want to work on? And this is not me as a director coming with a project and an idea and a text and ask them to support it. So, it's three of us, so lying, so...
08:55 Soundlight and space are fundamental. We build everything together from the beginning. For the last, for example, I didn't adapt the text before the rehearsals, or people normally do. I worked on the text inside the teacher, responding to what we could create with sound, light, and sub-design.
09:17 There is that very important scene where the character of Umm disappears in that famous ice palace that we create just with light and fog. It was the first thing that we did in the process. So when we found this, we knew that we had a project there.
09:43 So just this example to tell you how the elements work together in a very fine interaction, interaction, and that need many phases of research and as you can imagine. In the novel, nature is central.
10:00 The characters' emotions aren't described directly. Instead, they are reflected through the transformation of the landscape. And our lighting designer, Nancy Bussire, is captivated by the light of northern countries and by the way the sun, which barely rises above the horizon, changes our perception of everything.
10:22 The last takes place over the course of a single winter from the first trees to the great top. And that was our first goal with this adaptation, recreating those landscapes and that northern climate.
10:38 So you've spoken about, yeah, the use of light, fog, sound, and their pivotal role in the design and the whole concept and development of this work. And they're so key to the overall experience. And I'd love to hear a bit more about the technology behind the immersive design elements.
11:00 Like you spoke about using audio on headphones, for example, whereas you could have had the audio just in the space without headphones. Yeah, whatever you want to share about the choices with regard to technology and design.
11:17 Well, the show that you saw in Montreal at Festival de France, called White Tout, staged a winter storm in the theater. So, a real white tout that starts on stage and reaches out into the audience space.
11:39 And for this, we developed a scenic device to let the light spread through fog, making the light almost feel touchable. So, with the last, we aim to continue exploring Nordic light. But we wanted to bring the audience closer to the action, placing them at the heart of the experience.
11:59 So we designed an immersive set and planned a song designed to be played through headphones. And this choice of headphones, made by Tomas, was tired of fighting against every sound in the space that we can control.
12:19 Also, the fun of the moving light and everything. So with headphones, it can offer you a very, very more precise sound conception. And when you have headphones, you feel inside the soundscape. You feel very close to the action.
12:43 And the other particularity of our work is something that we also developed for white art and that we keep refined or we keep refining. Refining, it's a device that help us to make the sound and light very interactive.
13:06 So sometimes it's the sound that triggers light effects. And sometimes it's the other way around, which helps us to make the people feel that everything, the elements are very interactive and related as it is in the real life.
13:25 When you feel a storm, this is not sun somewhere and light somewhere else. Everything works together. Thank you. That's a really clear explanation. When I hear you describing it, I just get goosebumps.
13:40 I'm so excited to experience the glass live because I haven't experienced it live. And as you're mentioning, it's so immersive that it's really the way it's designed to be experienced. Your work has featured children's tales and children themselves as performers.
13:59 What is interesting to you about the child's perspective and presence on stage? I believe that in life and on stage, children have a lot to teach us. And it's truly from this point of view that we work with them.
14:15 Their presence on stage is uncompromising. So we must therefore ensure that they have all the conditions to feel free on stage, that they have the space to keep playing as children do. We don't want to work with children and make them become small actors.
14:34 So as you said, many of our previous creation featured children and teenagers. But for the last, the technical aspects are too challenging to include children. It wouldn't be enjoyable. and just too limiting for them.
14:52 So we're working with actors, young actors actually, for some of them this is their first professional contract. But what we keep in that work, but what remains important is our desire to erase this artificial border between the adult world and the children's world.
15:17 When I was little, I thought that one day I would feel like an adult, but that day never came. I'm just, I'm still the same person. I just have a little bit more of responsibilities than when I was 11.
15:32 Fostering, playfulness, strange, strange, fostering playfulness, strangeness and imagination is also part of this responsibility today. Yes. Thank you so much for just giving some more context to your work, providing a little bit more of it.
15:54 So it's nice to hear it personalized through your voice to understand how the company works together. It makes so much sense that the three of you bring this sound lighting and theater, text-based narrative perspectives all into the process simultaneously to devise the work.
16:11 I think it's so clear in seeing the work and what makes it really stand out just with its completely unique perspective, artistic perspective. Thank you so much. I'm so looking forward to it. I know we're recording this interview in November and already half the shows are sold out, even actually before our launch because Seattle that says, yeah, I'm has already launched.
16:41 So hopefully there'll be tickets left by the time people hear this, if it's leading up to the festival. But it just goes to show that I think. people are very intrigued by what you're what you have to offer yeah yes thank you Gabriel it was very nice to talk to you and we're super excited to come to push we heard a lot of good things about the festival and it's it's it's also very exciting to be part of la caesium at the same time so gonna yeah I'm sure we're gonna meet a lot of beautiful people you just heard Gabriel Martin's conversation with Anne-Marie Ouellette of L'Ou De Bein.
17:23 Her show De Glasses or From Ice will be presented at the Push International Performing Arts Festival from January 31st to February 2nd 2025 at the Roundhouse in Vancouver. The festival will run from January 23rd to February 9th.
17:40 I'm Ben Charland and I produced this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
17:54 And for more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca. And on the next Push Play...
18:09 Our work, I think, looks pretty conceptually serious, you know? And we take it seriously, we build it seriously, but we also joke around and are really silly with each other to make it. | |||
| 09 Aug 2024 | Ep. 23 - Emergence (2009) | 00:26:42 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Tim Carlson, co-founder of Vancouver’s Theatre Conspiracy. Show Notes Gabrielle and Tim discuss:
About Tim Carlson Tim Carlson is a playwright, songwriter, journalist who co-founded Theatre Conspiracy and served as artistic producer from 2008 to 2022. He led the creation of Foreign Radical, which won the 2015 Jessie Award Critics Choice Innovation prize and a 2017 Edinburgh Fringe First Award. The script was recently published in Canadian Theatre Review. Most recent show is the podcast series, Isolation Suite, and he is currently writing The Dynamics, set to premiere in the 2024/’25 season. Carlson’s documentary play, Victim Impact, premiered at The Cultch in Vancouver in June 2018. He also co-created, wrote the music for, and performed in Tanya Marquardt’s Stray, seen at The Tank in New York and SummerWorks in Toronto in 2018, as well as Vancouver in 2019. He was researcher/ interviewer for Berlin-based Rimini Protokoll’s latest show, Top Secret International, seen at the 2017 Under the Radar Festival in New York as well as researcher/ dramaturg for Best Before (Rimini Protokoll, @ PuSh 2010) and 100% Vancouver (Rimini Protokoll / Theatre Replacement, @ PuSh 2011). The 2013 show Extraction, won the Rio Tinto Alcan Award, Canada’s largest prize for new play development. His play Omniscience (Talonbooks, 2007) was produced in Vancouver, Berlin, Lisbon and Chicago. He founded Club PuSh with the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival in Vancouver and served as co-curator along with Veda Hille and Norman Armour from 2009 to 2016. As a journalist, he worked on staff at the Halifax Daily News, Vancouver Sun and Georgia Straight. He holds an English degree from University of Regina, a journalism degree from University of King’s College, Halifax, and a MFA in Creative Writing from the University of British Columbia. Contact Tim Carlson at carlson@conspiracy.ca Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's director of programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Today's episode highlights theater conspiracy and Tim Carlson and is anchored around the 2009 Push Festival. Tim Carlson is a theater maker, independent producer, and performing arts consultant. He co -founded Vancouver's Theater Conspiracy in 1995 and led the company as artistic producer from 2008 to 2020.
Gabrielle Martin 00:43 His work encompasses a wide variety of experiments with documentary, dramatic, interactive, and musical performance forms. His work, including Foreign Radical, Stray, and Omniscience, has been presented in cities including Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, New York, Chicago, London, Edinburgh, Lisbon, and Berlin.
Gabrielle Martin 01:04 Theater Conspiracy's critical inquiry and aesthetic curiosity contributes to a public dialogue activating freedom of expression, diversity and identity, and opinion, and challenges the status quo. Here's my conversation with Tim.
Gabrielle Martin 01:21 We are going to dive into the history of theater conspiracy and your relationship with Polish. It's a rich history. And just to contextualize where we are, we are here on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Squamish, Musqueam, and Tsleil -Waututh.
Gabrielle Martin 01:39 We are also on commercial drive. Is this your neighborhood?
Tim Carlson 01:44 one of my neighborhoods close by. Yes, okay.
Gabrielle Martin 01:47 And I actually grew up in this neighborhood, so very familiar to me from the past, which is appropriate as we're talking about the past. And we're gonna start actually, we're gonna start at the beginning, but I invited Tim to chat with me, with us today, and to ground the conversation around 2009, because 2009 was the year that Push presented live from A Bush of Ghosts, that Tim, you started, that you co -founded and started curating the Club Push series.
Gabrielle Martin 02:17 Also, that you worked with Push co -founder Norman Armour on Blackbird, which was a rumble, and Peter Conspiracy Project, so there's a lot in 2009. But beyond that, the relationship, official relationship with Push starts in 2006 with Tom Paine, based on Nothing.
Gabrielle Martin 02:36 And in 2014, there was also a couple collaborations, Myth and Infrastructure and Duets for One. So, let's go back to the beginning. Okay, so I would love you to talk to us about how your relationship began with the festival, before the festival, and then about Tom Paine, and your work in the early presenting, producing the cabarets with Push in those early years.
Tim Carlson 03:03 Right. I guess I really got into push when it was a presentation series right off the top. I think that was 2006. I was still working at Vancouver Sun as an arts and culture writer and I'd gotten to know Norman through interviews, seeing his work and you know starting a conversation and so I was excited about who it shows it began and then with theater conspiracy Richard and I did some one night push cabarets in the early years.
Gabrielle Martin 03:44 So you and Richard were artistic, co -artistic producers of Theatre Conspiracy in the early days until you kind of took on the helm solo in 2008. That's right, Richard. Until 2020.
Tim Carlson 03:57 Yeah, Richard moved on to Pi Theater, and I ran Theater Conspiracy until 2020.
Gabrielle Martin 04:06 And so can you, let's talk about Tom Payne, what was that project and what was the process of realizing it for the festival and how did that conversation start? Was it, you know, did you pitch the project to Norman?
Gabrielle Martin 04:20 Did Norman come to you and ask if you would do it? Like how did that come about?
Tim Carlson 04:25 Yeah, Richard had a really great facility for finding new scripts that were emerging on the world stage. And that was most of conspiracy's production work, aside from cabarets in the early years. And knowing what Push was all about, more experimental work, Richard found Willy Knows, Tom Paine based on nothing, house Scott Bellas, and Norman was interested in having what he called satellite shows when Push was still smaller.
Tim Carlson 05:14 And there was space and time at performance works that year, and it was a metaphysical monologue. An experimental one -person show that fit right into the Push aesthetic.
Gabrielle Martin 05:34 Okay and so and then you also did in 2006, in 2007, 2008 these cabarets at various venues that were like a push, a theater conspiracy, a collaboration. Why the cabaret format? What was interesting? How did that that get started and and yeah and why the cabaret format?
Tim Carlson 05:55 Well, theater conspiracies started out doing cabaret shows where we would write one show and then we'd have bands, comics, performance art, and that's really how it kicked off. And that started in 1995, various venues around town.
Tim Carlson 06:16 And it just felt natural for push to have, you know, a cabaret space, a social space. And so we did that for three years at the Anza Club, the Wise, and Backstage Lounge on Granville Island.
Gabrielle Martin 06:37 Do you remember any, like, I know it's a long time ago, but do you have any star performances that stay with you over the years? I know when you produce so many, it's probably, yeah, we're going a ways back, but we'll come closer to the present.
Tim Carlson 06:56 into mine.
Gabrielle Martin 06:57 Well, let's talk about Club Push because you co -founded that and then you curated it for many years, so what was different about Club Push from the cabarets that you were already doing with Push?
Tim Carlson 07:09 Yeah the cabaret idea grew just from various acts that Richard and I wanted to produce and then we said what about people coming to the festival if they do maybe they're here for a show but they play music or do comedy let's bring them into that became part of the curation.
Tim Carlson 07:31 Okay Norman was more interested once that was happening as well and then sometime around 2007, 2008 he came back from a festival in Europe that had a really great club social space where it would really involve everyone in the festival from the artists the presenters volunteers audience everybody and that's part I think part of it was you know before that everybody after a show would disperse in various ways and this was a way to keep everybody together and then Norman could be part of every conversation other than just one at this part and one at that part so it was very much influenced by his social nature and one to connect together people yeah and those early
Gabrielle Martin 08:39 clubs, was that in performance works?
Tim Carlson 08:42 Yeah, it was in Performance Works, I don't know, for the first five, six years, I think, which was great.
Gabrielle Martin 08:51 Yeah I mean it makes sense everything you're saying about I imagine that then like the curatorial focus was just about kind of those eclectic pieces that might not fit in the conventional theater format and also you know works that inspired this this gathering in exchange or is there any any other aspect to that?
Tim Carlson 09:11 I think so. It evolved quite a bit, especially in the first few years, because we were looking for pieces, half local, the rest national, international, that really would thrive in a club environment.
Tim Carlson 09:33 And Norman had this phrase, a platform for experiment. So pieces that were new ideas from artists that we knew to do a first take on a new piece. And those were commissions as well. A handful of them were.
Tim Carlson 10:01 And then also ones that we heard about that were kind of developing some momentum that we would commission, that we would commission it also for club push to keep the development going. And I think the best example of that was Cliff Cardinal's huff.
Tim Carlson 10:31 It had started in Toronto, Montreal, I think, then Eric Epstein brought it up to the Yukon and told Norman about it. And we thought we should, you know, help, you know, help bring the work down. Yeah, it just wowed everybody.
Tim Carlson 10:57 Not something maybe typically that you would program in a bar, but it had a lot of heat under it. Yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 11:06 length work at the time.
Tim Carlson 11:08 I believe so. Maybe it was a couple years before it got to a full run, but pretty much, I think.
Gabrielle Martin 11:18 I know it's great to hear this history because you hear Club Push and you know without more context you might think you know a space for entertainment or when we hear cabaret and I mean it sounds like there was an element of that and that you know in the diversity of works that you were presenting that that existed but also that idea of a platform for experimentation that's an interesting kind of intersection of having a kind of convivial club kind of atmosphere where people are also have the presence to engage with experimentation on that level yeah that's
Tim Carlson 11:53 Yeah, it did evolve in interesting ways and for some reason Norman was really resistant to the idea of cabaret thinking that it meant something else, but another one of the inspirations was the kind of work that was being seen at Joe's Pub at the public in New York and that we engaged there and under the radar was specifically made for Joe's Pub and I think that's where Norman first encountered Taylor Mac who was the first presentation that we did at Club Patient in 2009.
Gabrielle Martin 12:41 Okay And so 2009 as you know I mentioned that that was also an important year because push presented a lie from a bush of ghosts
Tim Carlson 12:51 Mmhmm.
Gabrielle Martin 12:52 What was that project?
Tim Carlson 12:54 It was, we wanted to start experimenting with musical as much as we did with, in other kinds of performance. And we just, it was the 20th anniversary of David Burnham, Brian Enos, My Life in the Bushered Ghost, which was a very cutting edge sample piece, groundbreaking in its time.
Tim Carlson 13:26 And we just riffed on that really with a DJ band called No Luck Club, Tera Cheyenne, performing. I wrote the piece, Richard directed, and Cande Andrade did live video. Yeah, so I think it was very much in the push mode and we had a good run of it while starting Club Push, so it was a lot.
Tim Carlson 13:57 That show unfortunately didn't have a life after, because other things were funded and that was the usual thing.
Gabrielle Martin 14:08 But it was a premiere at Push. That's right, yep. And then you were also, there was a relationship between theater, conspiracy, and the festival in an indirect way through Norman's work with Rumble or through that project that he directed Blackbird which was a theater conspiracy.
Tim Carlson 14:28 Yeah, we had done previous co -productions with Rubble while Norman was at Rubble and was something we wanted to do again and Blackbird was a piece that Ian Heather Redd had seen in Edinburgh and were just, you know, gaga about and so we started, we had an opening at that time, I think it was at the College in March of 2009 and
Gabrielle Martin 15:05 And why were they so excited about this project? Enough to get you excited about it as well.
Tim Carlson 15:11 Yeah, it had great success with a run in the UK and I think Norman hadn't directed a lot in recent years and it was a lot of production and he won Best Director at the Jesse's that year for that.
Gabrielle Martin 15:30 And your role in that project was producer, were you also an artist in the work? No, producer. And then let's jump ahead a little bit because my understanding is that there's also another collaboration or multiple collaborative projects with push involved, Rimini Protocol, your work as a dramaturg.
Gabrielle Martin 15:53 Can you talk to us about those projects?
Tim Carlson 15:56 Yeah, over the years, up until maybe about 2017 or so, I was involved with Push most festivals as an artist or as a producer, as a curator. So I also worked on a number of shows that came to the city like Mariano Passotti's La Maria.
Tim Carlson 16:25 It needed a little bit of local tweaking in the script, so I did a little bit of adaptation, which that piece was just an amazing event.
Gabrielle Martin 16:41 Delupas, I know that they're excited to talk about that work. We haven't, I haven't interviewed them yet, but I know that that's a big, that was an important collaboration.
Tim Carlson 16:51 But Remini Protocol, that's a big one to both, I think, for the festival and for me and my own work. I was in Berlin for a translation workshop and presentation of omniscience, a show that Richard and I did in mid -2000s.
Tim Carlson 17:16 And we were introduced to Remini's work at that time, a show about a riff on Karl Marx. And what Remini does is really what I'd call conceptual documentary work, sourcing original material and using non -actors, people with experience somehow related to the subject matter.
Tim Carlson 17:47 And I was really enthused about this because it brought to mind, given my work in journalism, I was interested in applying my journalism background in a larger way to theatre that I was making. And Norman was going over around this time and I said, hey, you've got to see this show.
Tim Carlson 18:12 I think he was familiar with them but hadn't seen their work before and of course started a conversation with them. And that was just when Cultural Olympiad was happening and there was some funding to really stretch in some new directions.
Tim Carlson 18:32 So I commissioned them to make a play based here, which became Best Before. And I worked with them all the time that they were here doing research, introductions, dramaturgy, journalism kind of work.
Gabrielle Martin 18:58 What an incredible collaboration. I imagine like how long were they there working on the development or were they here?
Tim Carlson 19:04 They came here for two weeks in the summer, and then a couple months prior to push, when I remember it rained every day all the time. So they got the best and the worst. But it was quite an adventure because it was 200 game controllers, an audience of 200, each with a game controller wired in.
Tim Carlson 19:32 And there was, yeah, a lot of new technology to play with and adapt. That show toured, I think, you know, for a couple years around North America and Europe.
Gabrielle Martin 19:49 And was that the first time that Push had commissioned an international company to create a work for the festival?
Tim Carlson 19:57 I don't think so, but I can't put my finger on maybe to make a show here.
Speaker 4 20:04 Yeah.
Tim Carlson 20:05 That was 2010. 2010, yeah. Yeah, Olympics.
Gabrielle Martin 20:09 Okay, I'm curious from Tom Paine to, you know, when you left theater conspiracy in 2020, how you would say that theater conspiracies practice, interests, questions evolved over that time and your own practice into the present day as well.
Tim Carlson 20:33 Well, I think that Remy protocol example is good because it got me into approaching a new way of working where prior, I was writing, you know, what you would call well -made plays. Some of them were.
Tim Carlson 20:56 But then it became more of a collaborative, I think, on the creation, co -creation essentially, especially in documentary works, which were, well, for example, extraction, foreign radical, which is probably the best known, you know, touring show that we did, and a piece called victim impact.
Tim Carlson 21:24 And so ideas like that are still something that I'm working with. And also working on experimental musical pieces, like Bush and Ghost, like Tanya Markworth's story. So those are continuing threads. And most of it, like I would lead the writing maybe, but largely co -created writing.
Gabrielle Martin 21:52 And how would you describe the cultural context of Push then and now, you know, whatever you want to share in terms of your reflection on that given your long history with the festival and its significance for theater conspiracy.
Tim Carlson 22:09 I guess the way that I look at it is in the mid -90s there were there was just a sudden burst of energy creatively and I'd say you know maybe entrepreneurial as well and Norman was very much at the center of that and animating a lot of companies were like well rumble of course but theater conspiracy new world so many other companies theater replacement of course and it did you know an ecology I think is the right word for it like there was just a lot of mutual support and interest sharing audiences sharing resources and push really emerged I think the foundation of it was that local energy and Norman's you know looking to the larger world of theater and saying you know Vancouver should be a part of that and the best work in the world should be coming here and we'd feed on each other I mean I think that's what happened prior to push there wasn't a lot of local work going out and touring you know but now it's almost the usual thing for you know a lot of the best theater makers making original work a lot of people are to it
Gabrielle Martin 24:04 And yet somehow it feels like there's not enough, there are not enough presenters, local presenters, for the amount of local work that's being produced here. Or maybe that's always a, you know, sentiment amongst artists, but I think also, you know, with funding kind of tightening a little bit across the sector, those spaces, local presentation opportunities are still feel very sought after.
Tim Carlson 24:32 Yeah, I'm two degree. I think it's always been the case, but the big difference is in the mid -90s We could work at other jobs you know put on a show with our credit cards hope for the best and Probably we can still pay our rent because You know a quarter of what it is now so the larger economics Make it so much different with the progress lab companies The college you know a lot of other companies There is a basis of support for new work and emerging artists That just didn't exist 20 years ago and 30 years ago,
Tim Carlson 25:22 so That's maybe the silver lining
Gabrielle Martin 25:29 Thanks so much, Tim. Thanks for sharing some of this history with us.
Tim Carlson 25:32 It's a delight. Yeah. Thank you.
Ben Charland 25:37 That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.
Ben Charland 25:53 A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Ben Charland 26:12 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review.
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| 08 Jan 2024 | Ep. 16 - The Shadow Whose Prey The Hunter Becomes: generative disaster | 00:27:00 | |
Bruce Gladwin discusses how a disastrous first showing influenced the show’s creation. See The Shadow Whose Prey The Hunter Becomes at the 2024 PuSh Festival from Feb 1-3 at the York Theatre. Co-Presented with Neworld Theatre and The Cultch. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Bruce Gladwin, director and co-author of The Shadow Whose Prey the Hunter Becomes. Gabrielle and Bruce discuss the show’s source and evolution, the need to place obstacles in front of actors, how a disastrous first showing of the piece led to the show it is today, and more, including:
About Back to Back Theatre Based in the Victorian regional centre of Geelong, Back to Back Theatre is widely recognised as an Australian theatre company of national and international significance. The company is driven by an ensemble of actors who are perceived to have intellectual disabilities and is considered one of Australia’s most important cultural exporters. We contend our operation as a theatre company is beyond expectation of possibility: an affirmation for human potential. The company’s existence contributes to the richness and diversity of Australian life and palpably projects Geelong, Victoria and Australia to the world as innovative, sophisticated and dynamic. The company has undertaken presentations and screenings at the world’s pre-eminent contemporary arts festivals and venues such as the Edinburgh International Festival, London’s V&A Museum and the Barbican, Vienna Festival, Holland Festival and Theater der Welt, the Kennedy Center in Washington DC, the Public Theater in New York, Festival Tokyo, West Kowloon Cultural District Authority in Hong Kong, and Buenos Aires International Festival. Back to Back Theatre has received 21 national and international awards including the International Ibsen Award, a Helpmann Award for Best Australian Work, an Edinburgh International Festival Herald Angel Critics’ Award, two Age Critics’ Awards, a New York Bessie and the Sidney Myer Performing Arts Group Award for our long-standing contribution to the development of Australian theatre. In 2015, Bruce Gladwin received the Australia Council for the Arts’ Inaugural Award for Outstanding Achievement in Theatre. The ensemble were awarded the ‘Best Ensemble’ in the 2019 Green Room Awards. Land Acknowledgement Bruce joins the podcast from the land of the Wadawurrung, now colonially known as the state of Victoria in Australia. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 23 Nov 2023 | Ep. 5 - Returns: Reckoning with systems of capitalism | 00:25:45 | |
Nellie Gossen discusses her playful interruption of consumer fashion processes. Returns runs Jan 7th-Feb 3rd at PuSh Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Nellie Gossen about her intriguing performative installation Returns at the Dance Centre, which will be part of PuSh and showing for the duration of the 2024 Festival. Co-presented with The Dance Centre. Gabrielle and Nellie ask:
About Nellie Gossen Nellie Gossen (she/they) is an interdisciplinary artist based on the unceded territories of the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) First Nations. Working through the media of fashion, costume, textiles and performance, Nellie uses clothing as a tool to think and feel through social systems. With an interest in repurposing the materials, rhythms and choreographies of the mainstream fashion industry, Nellie practices fashion as a space of study, ceremony, and as a critical site of research into embodied experiences of consumer capitalism. Drawing on formal training in both Fashion Design and Religious Studies, Nellie is particularly interested in the space that is created when clothing and contemplative practices meet. Nellie’s work has been presented throughout Canada and Germany. As a costume designer and textile collaborator, Nellie has worked with artists such as Nancy Tam, Steven Hill, Francesca Frewer, Erika Mitsuhashi, Alexa Mardon and Michaela Gerussi. Alongside her artistic inquiries, Nellie studies and practices end of life spiritual care. Land Acknowledgement Gabrielle and Nellie both join from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to Push Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, PuSh's director of programming. And today's episode highlights clothing as a tool to think and feel through social systems. I'm speaking with Nellie Gossen, responsible for the direction and concept of Returns, a durational performance installation running throughout the PuSh Festival January 18th to February 3rd, 2024. Returns unearths the materials and performances already at play within consumer capitalism. Nellie works through the medium of fashion, costume, textiles and performance, considering the many truths of industrial labour and consumption. Her work explores the materials of mainstream fashion as a vehicle for study, spaciousness, social action, rigorous love, practice and phenomenological inquiry. I'm excited for you to hear our discussion that highlights how these considerations culminate in Returns. Here is my conversation with Nellie.
Gabrielle [00:01:01] I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that both of us are here today on the stolen Unceded ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) . And it is it's an absolute privilege to be here living on these lands that just contextualises where we are. And I want to now talk about the work that we're doing and the collaboration. So your work explores the space created when clothing and contemplative practices meet. And I'm curious, how did you arrive at this unique point of transdisciplinary inquiry?
Nellie [00:01:40] For me, these are not fields that I have intentionally brought together. They are rather just parts of me, parts of what I'm interested in, parts of my own training and experience. I come to this work with formal training and the field of fashion design and also in religious studies and spiritual care. So these are just these two poles of my own interests and explorations that of course are going to come together in my practice, whether I like it or not. I think, so I'm primarily thinking about the field of fashion, and that's been a thread that really weaves through all of my work. And when we're thinking about fashion and engaging in that industry and that system and fashion design education, we're really always going to be referencing or talking to the flow of money. Fashion is so deeply intertwined with capitalism from the kind of earliest stages of capitalism as we see it now. So this is always going to be a reference point and always going to be kind of a reckoning when we're talking about thinking about working with fashion. For me, in my practice or what I what I kind of see and understand is that the fashion industry, fashion field is interested in bringing in question topics that are relevant to folks, what's happening out in the world, reflecting, reflecting our lived experiences. And because it is so intertwined with money, with with marketing, with profit, it has the tendency to really flatten and limit and kind of water down all of these experiences. So I guess something that I want to name is any time I'm thinking about fashion, I feel like there is this reckoning with this lineage of less nuance and complexity rather than more. My interest and my field really is really always going to be one of how we can bring more interesting questions and more space into thinking about clothing and and bringing in kind of contemplative practices, thinking about attention practices, thinking about slowing down, feeling with the full body, thinking about weaving and lineages of how we make meaning, of how we reckon with what is known and what is unknown and unknowable. It's just extra space for me to to kind of find what is interesting for me in fashion practice and, and to really be be drawing on other fields and other interdisciplinary practice, other mediums to kind of create more space to think about clothing and fashion in a in a bit of a wider frame.
Gabrielle [00:04:37] Yeah. So the way you're speaking, I start to get a sense of how the contemplative practice is embedded in the experience that you're designing with Returns and your kind of artistic interests. You're currently studying end of life care, and I'm just curious if you could expand a little bit more on how so that that experience and that education informs the design, how we may feel that, for example in Returns or in other projects of yours.
Nellie [00:05:12] Similar with with end of life care and about spiritual care. These are I didn't set out with the intention of making a work about that. That's just really a reflection of the questions that I'm asking in my own life. You know, as a student of the field, somebody who has been been studying and practising that in that world, I think there is so much that that enters into my work and is profoundly relevant to how we are moving through the world today, how we're making work today. I see a lot of folks starting to integrate grief work and death work into artistic practices these days. And I think it really speaks to, you know, how we are navigating and negotiating some of the larger questions of bearing witness to to to what what we are what we are seeing in the world today. I think in a practical sense, when we're talking about care practices of of this turning towards are building and capacity building muscle to turn towards experiences that are really challenging, to turn towards suffering, to turn towards complexity and to try to build spaces to to hold that complexity in life or in art practice or in whatever other container it it all creates more space for us to think, think about or for me to think about my artistic practice in a more nuanced way. So what's actually happening in in Returns, it can be considered a caregiving practice. We are borrowing clothing, we are borrowing systems from the larger fashion industry and thinking about how we can use our bodies to offer them value or to to witness them to to care for them and to care for garments that are that are essentially otherwise made to be disposable. So this kind of practice in a way of a re-sacralizing commun- or commercial garments or commercial materials and how we can bring our our attention can actually change and impact those materials.
Gabrielle [00:07:36] Yeah. So you're touching on a little bit about what happens in returns that there's this this disassembling and reassembling of garments and and there's an embodied practice there too, that there's dance artists who you're working with who are engaging physically in this space, and that this all kind of comes together to critique consumer capitalism. So it's a durational performance installation that addresses modern production and consumption and how we exist with it and consumer capitalism. and so I'm just curious if you could talk a bit more about how those different mediums come together in this piece to... I mean, you already have been speaking to that, but maybe you could just expound a little bit further on, for example, why are you working with dance artists? What does that add?
Nellie [00:08:32] Something I'll say right off the bat is my my clothing practice has always been in conversation with with performance. And when I say that, you know, my clothing and contemplative practices have kind of come together accidentally, I've been much more intentional with with really incorporating dance and movement and performance practices into my work kind of since the beginning of my more formal, formal artistic practice. So I have been thinking about how we can meaningfully incorporate those tools or incorporate the tools of of the moving and thinking body into clothing practice. What I will say about the the piece, maybe I would just really briefly tell you or just explain what happens in the in the work in the in the kind of briefest sense we are borrowing kind of cycles and the systems that are really already at play within within the retail consumer systems. So we this project works in 30 day iterations where we are going to stores going into mass chain stores that that work with a 30 day retail return policy. And then this 30 day retail return policy essentially becomes the framework becomes the container for our inquiry, our 30 day inquiry. So we buy a whole bunch of clothing of all different kinds, we bring it back to our performance space where we take it all apart very, very carefully, take it all apart, and then use the material. We explore the material, for that for the duration of our of our work. So we sew new clothing, constellations, we work, we create new kind of sculptural forms. And then we do have this ongoing movement practice working with movement scores that that run throughout the piece that's totally part of part of the work and the way that we work. So not all is happening. Towards the end of the 30 day period, we we take apart everything that we have been working on and again, very carefully begin to reassemble all of the pieces of clothing that we are using back into their original form. So this is to reference care practices across the board. This is one of of of caring very, very, very specifically for these garments. And yeah, so at the end of the 30 day practice, the 30 day period, everything is reassembled back into original form and returned to stores for a full refund. So again, pulling things out of systems that are already in existence, borrowing, borrowing the materials for just a temporary period and then returning them back in into the systems that we that we that we're working with. So that's the kind of the basic form that we're thinking about. And to kind of come back to your question in terms of the production and consumption and how we're using this space to witness that, I really do understand all of the garments, all of the materials that we're working with to be in the material manifestation of these these larger systems of capitalism, of the fashion industry, of of global supply chains and the fashion supply chain, the systems of production are hidden from our view. It is not profitable for consumers to be exposed to the hugely exploitative, you know, process of of of production. So we're really sitting in this place as consumers in the global north of of these positions of privilege of how how can we even witness these systems. What how can we how can we reckon with our with our positions in this in the space. Yeah. How can we even begin to engage with, with systems that are, that are hidden from our, from our view. So these pieces of clothing essentially become this material record or this archive of this labour that we that we can work with. So we are really imagining clothing, commercial garments as, as the material that we have to witness, witness the systems and borrowing this particular 30 day retail exchange as the way of of of using our bodies to witness the kinds of patterns of consumption that are part of our everyday lives. So yeah, essentially we're just using the materials, the systems, and we use that in ways that we can and the ways that we can slow down a little bit to to kind of have a better sense of, of what is happening and, and how we can kind of yeah, how we can learn from, from these these materials and to address the clothing movement dance relationship. I in my practice the kind of core centre central interest is the body and I understand the clothing element as a practice of the body. I understand the movement and dance element as a practice of the body. I have over the last couple of years done this, this work with dance artists as a way of, of really inhabiting this system from the perspective of the moving and thinking body and how we can trace bodies as we- our bodies, other bodies- the kind of choreographic patterns of these of these systems from more of a of a movement and performance and dance lens. So that has been an ongoing layer or two to the equation. And this particular iteration that I'm sharing this is going to. Be the eighth full iteration of this process that I've done. And this time I'm going to be working with three really talented artistic collaborators, kind of each coming from their own, with their with their own skills and expertise. I am working with Erika Mitsuhashi, who comes from the Field of Dance. I'm working with Jaewoo Kang, who, similar to me is thinking about clothing and costume practice in an interdisciplinary context and working with Tone Puorro who is joining us from from Berlin. And they are thinking about materials and craft and performance and community organising. So we've got a lot of different layers that we're bringing in. Each of us already has the pre-existing practice thinking at the intersection of of clothing and performance. So we've got a whole bunch of new voices to kind of explore what is possible in this 30 day, 30 day container.
Gabrielle [00:16:05] Thank you for that beautifully articulated insight to and what this is all about and and all the the thoughtful research that has gone into making Returns. And I'm curious, you have spoken about fashion becoming increasingly present within art spaces in Vancouver and beyond. And would you be able to speak a bit to why fashion is becoming increasingly present and what that does for audience experiences and artist practices and the kind of maybe themes or or techniques that are developing through that.
Nellie [00:16:49] I mean, something that I can speak to right off the bat is that we are in this interesting moment in Vancouver where the fashion depictions exhibition of the VAG just closed. The Museum of Vancouver has a fashion history exhibition. The my collaborator, Jaewoo Kang is currently in a show with the Griffin Art Projects to do with fashion. So I have never have never witnessed a kind of momentum in this city around thinking through questions of fashion before. It's a it's a medium that has often been left out of artistic practices. It's been considered more in the world of design, and it's sometimes been a challenge to see that in in more artistic conversation or art conversations. Yeah, So I recognise that, that it is having a moment and I see a lot of folks turning towards clothing practices and kind of incorporating that into other kinds of works. I think the people have been doing that for a long time and I also recognise, you know, that there is momentum coming from lots of different ways. The pandemic, our kind of increased intimacy of supply chain issues and and this kind of global interconnectedness when it comes to materials and supply chains, I think it brings fashion or brings brings this kind of production process into our lives in a in a much more immediate way. Fashion is hugely problematic when it comes to our ecological situation. And and I think there is increasing motivation to look at what's happening there. So, yeah, I think there are a lot of these kind of entry points that that how folks are more interested and thinking about this this topic. And there have recently been a number of of books that have been published about kind of fashion history and textile history that have reached a wider public. So, yeah, I do, I am witnessing this kind of this kind of momentum and and uptake and in the general public being kind of interested in engaging with clothing. And something that I will also add and what I'm thinking about and, and in the process and research that I'm doing is that and I think when we're talking about shopping for clothing, when we're talking about interfacing with these big chain stores and interfacing with fashion, that these are these are practices that that so many people can relate to and have this kind of personal lived, intimate experience with. So, yeah, I hope that can be an entry point for folks in kind of engaging with their work in a different way.
Gabrielle [00:20:00] Yeah. You've spoken about shopping as an artistic practice. Yeah. And so you're kind of touching on that now. Is there anything more that you want to share on that?
Nellie [00:20:10] The shopping have been such a huge space of research for me and it is incorporated into this work, Absolutely. It's not really what folks are necessarily going to see as as audiences for this work. You know, we are we are essentially just opening our working process up in the in the sewing in the building and the wearing for for folks to come and see that side of things. But all of this all of this work is in reference to systems, to exchanges in in this kind of shopping retail space. So a lot of my research and the research that we have been doing is also just growing into retail spaces, into malls, into stores, and witnessing the performances that are already happening there, witnessing the kinds of movements, the kinds of patterns, the kinds of embodied experiences, and what it feels like to be moved by music, what it feels like in the stores, what it feels like to be moved by spending money. Like what, what that does to the body, what that does to one's, you know, embodied experience. All of these, all of these patterns and these paths that are that are set out for us in retail spaces. So that's been a huge part of my my own practice and. I own research, and partially because as somebody who likes clothing and has been thinking about clothing, you know, it's the fine line in this contemporary day and age, the the the the boundary between liking clothing and liking shopping and it feeling good to consume and shop is is thin. So I, I come by my interest in shopping honestly it's I am a researcher of my own experience of what it means to interface with with those systems. So yeah, very much a big site of my own research and, and what kind of comes together in my practice.
Gabrielle [00:22:24] This... Returns is going to be running through the festival, which is really exciting that there's an opportunity for folks to see. It. Not only is are there lots of opportunities to experience this work, but also you could come more than once. How might that function as a you anticipate folks coming back? Yeah.
Nellie [00:22:45] Hopefully. Yeah. So we are for the whole full month cycle. It starts on January 6th and runs all the way until February 4th at the at The Dance Centre. And we are going to be open to to the public for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week within our formal working period, which is then going to be January 7th to to, February 3rd. That's going to be our performance window. We're open five days a week. The the entry is free. So we hope that that will encourage folks to come back. Many times our days, our performance days are structured in more or less the same way, and we are continuously working with the materials in different ways throughout the month, and they're going to take on really different forms as the clothing, as large scale kind of sculptural installations. So we are just kind of working, moving with them, thinking with them continuously. So I really do hope that folks can come back a couple of times to kind of see the evolution of the materials and our practice throughout. So I would absolutely encourage, repeat, repeat visits. Yeah.
Gabrielle [00:24:21] All right. Thanks so much for just bringing us inside your world a little bit more and giving us more of a sense of the context and how we can engage with this work. Yeah. Thanks so much, Nellie.
Nellie [00:24:35] Thank you so much for having me.
Gabrielle [00:24:40] PuSh Play is produced by Ben Charland and Tricia Knowles and supported by our incredible community outreach coordinator, Julian Legere. New episodes with Gabrielle Martin are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, please visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @pushfestival | |||
| 21 Dec 2023 | Ep. 13 - L’amour telle une cathédrale ensevelie | 00:23:39 | |
Guy Régis Jr. sits down with Cory Haas, Artistic Director of Théâtre la Seizième, to talk about L’Amour telle une cathédrale ensevelie, which will be presented as part of the PuSh Festival from February 3-4 at the SFU Goldcorp Centre for the Arts. Co-presented with Théâtre la Seizième and SFU Woodward’s Cultural Programs. About the Show With staggering subtlety and lyricism, L’amour telle une cathédrale ensevelie tells the story of exiled Haitian families through opera-theatre. Born into just such a family, author and director Guy Régis Jr uses a chorus to sing of the tumultuous, uprooted nature of migration—the journey and the aftermath—in Creole and French, accompanied by Haitian classical guitarist, Amos Coulanges. A stunning creation that explores exile and dislocation through a portrait of families over sixty years, told in different forms and across different territories. Each fractal in the larger journey evokes those who live in the aftermath of voyages made or lost; each narrative reflects on the social, political and economic realities of a globalized world. This is a profound work, poetic and political. An interrogation of migration, human rights, social injustice and discrimination, the play is an ode to all those in search of a promised land. About NOUS Théâtre Created in 2001 in Haiti by Guy Régis Jr, NOUS Théâtre began its theatre work in the streets, cemeteries and universities. The approach is to bring theatre to the people. The form is paired down, ritualized, the speech is elevated. The discourse reflects the interrogations and the indignations of the company’s members on the social, political and economic situation in Haiti and the world. The style ‘nous’ (meaning ‘us’) is about radical research and experimentation of theatrical gesture which shook up the Haitian theatre milieu. In 2009, the association NOUS Théâtre is created in France. It produces the works of Guy Régis Jr in France and internationally and works to develop artistic exchanges and encounters between France and Haiti. The company produces artistic projects of various forms, from sound installations to performance and theatre creations, that can involve dance and/or music and/or video. The political speech and social engagement of the work, as well as the poetry of the texts, movements, images, sound and music compositions are all constants in the work of Guy Régis Jr. Themes of migration, human rights, social injustice, racism and discrimination of all kinds are very important to the texts and creations of the company. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 05 Nov 2024 | Ep. 36 - Lighting is Story (2023) | 00:27:44 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with lighting designer, photographer, writer and performer Itai Erdal. Show Notes Gabrielle and Itai discuss:
About Itai Erdal An award winning lighting designer, photographer, writer and performer, Itai is the founder of The Elbow Theatre in Vancouver, for whom he co-wrote and performed in Soldiers of Tomorrow, Hyperlink, This Is Not A Conversation and A Very Narrow Bridge. Itai has designed over 300 shows for theatre, dance and opera companies in over fifty cities around the world. Some of the companies he worked with include: Arts Club Theatre (16 shows), The Stratford Festival (11 shows), New Victory (Off Broadway), The Vancouver Opera, Vancouver Playhouse, Bard on the Beach, The Electric Company, National Arts Centre, Soulpepper, Tarragon, Factory, The Citadel, MTC, The Segal Centre, The Jerusalem Lab, Haifa Theatre, Tamasha, Box Clever and Teatro Villa Velha in Salvador, Brazil. He worked with such choreographers as: Crystal Pite, Nigel Charnock, Noam Gagnon, Robert Hylton, Serge Bennathan, Kate Alton, Chick Snipper, Noa Dar, Susan Elliot, Idan Cohen and Toru Shimazaki. Itai has won six Jessie Richardson Awards, a Dora Mavor Moore Award, a Winnipeg Theatre Award, the Jack King Award, a Guthrie Award, Victoria’s Spotlight Choice Award and the Design Award at the 2008 Dublin Fringe Festival. He was shortlisted to the Siminovitch Prize in 2018. Itai’s first one-man show: How to Disappear Completely (The Chop, directed by James Long), premiered in 2011 and had 25 remounts in 21 cities. It won the best director award at the Summerworks Festival in Toronto, and was shortlisted to the Dublin Fringe Award, the Brighton Fringe Award and the Total Theatre Award at the 2014 Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Soldiers of Tomorrow received Summerhall’s Lustrum Award and was nominated to an Offfest Award at the 2023 Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who have helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Today's episode features Itai Urdao and the 2023 Push Festival. Itai is a local lighting designer, playwright, and performer. He is the artistic director of the Albo Theater. His first play, How to Disappear Completely, has toured to 26 cities and won the Directional Award at the Summer Works Festival in Toronto.
Gabrielle Martin 00:42 His latest play, Soldiers of Tomorrow, won the Lustrom Award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and is touring today. Here's my conversation with Itai. I am here with Itai Urdao, and we're gonna be chatting about your relationship with Push.
Gabrielle Martin 00:59 You've been involved in many capacities as a lighting designer on some really iconic shows that we've already spoken about with some of our other interviewees. Also, Push's co -commission of one of your works in more recent years, but I just wanna start by acknowledging that we are here on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh,
Gabrielle Martin 01:23 and we are incredibly privileged to be on these lands. And in so -called Vancouver, yeah, we are in your home because we went to a cafe to shoot on a patio, but it was raining and loud and... Here we are.
Gabrielle Martin 01:36 Yes, here we are. So just to, yeah, recap. So your relationship started with Push from the very first festival. So you were a lighting designer on the Empty Orchestra of Theatre Replacement for 2005.
Itai Erdal 01:51 Yeah, it was 2005, the first one, I think maybe it was the second.
Gabrielle Martin 01:54 So the series, the performance series, started 2003 and then officially it became a festival in 2005.
Itai Erdal 02:00 Yes, yes.
Gabrielle Martin 02:03 And then you were also a lighting designer on Crime and Punishment, New World.
Itai Erdal 02:07 Both of them iconic shows, really, because Empty Orchestra was the very first show that Theatre Replacement has ever done. And I designed the set on that and lights. We did it at the dance center and then on the dance center was the director.
Itai Erdal 02:21 And it was really a fantastic show. Michael Bayamomoto and James Long were both very young. They were both in it and they were singing. The show Empty Orchestra means, and that's what karaoke is called in Japanese.
Itai Erdal 02:34 It's an empty orchestra. So it was a show kind of about karaoke and it was a very dark apocalyptic play about people falling in love in very dark, futuristic, environmentally disastrous future where Vancouver was all covered in snow.
Gabrielle Martin 02:51 So we've talked to Jamie about this, Jamie and Micah, but I say, yeah, but Jamie, because, uh, I think that was the project that, or maybe it was Micah who was saying that, um, you know, at one point they had an early version of the work in Darren was really unimpressed and made them go back to the drawing board.
Gabrielle Martin 03:07 And so it was a, a process. I mean, I guess as any first works, uh, uh, the creative processes for, you know, your first works, it's bound to have those kind of, uh,
Itai Erdal 03:18 It's funny you should mention that, because I just talked about Kathleen Oliver, who was the publicist for the show. And we saw an early version that they did at the Russian Hall, and they asked us to come, and Kathleen and I loved it.
Itai Erdal 03:35 And then they went and worked with Darren for a few weeks, and then asked us to come back. And we looked at each other, and we were like, we thought it was better before. And Darren said, oh, I'm sorry I ruined your show, and we were like, no, no, no, that's not what we meant.
Itai Erdal 03:49 We tried to take it back, but it was too late. But then they went back to the drawing board, and they changed a bunch of things, and they sort of got back some of them. But it was a very tumultuous process, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 03:59 So it wasn't Darren's fault, it was just an awkward stage in the process.
Itai Erdal 04:04 Maybe, maybe, yeah, but it was very interesting to be asked to watch the piece so early and then give our feedback. And also, I was very young and new to the collaborative process and maybe didn't know how to speak about the work in progress, and so it's possible.
Itai Erdal 04:24 So I was also a very fresh new immigrant to this country and, you know, as an Israeli, I have such different sensitivities and sensibilities than Canadians, and in retrospect, I was probably insensitive.
Itai Erdal 04:39 But I loved the final show. I did love the final show.
Gabrielle Martin 04:44 And you were also working on crime and punishment, and we've also spoken to Kamiar about that project and just what a kind of colossal ambitious project that was and
Itai Erdal 04:53 That remains one of the best shows I've ever worked on in my life, Crime and Punishment, and a big fan favorite. People still bring it up all the time. James Fagan Tate was just a genius in adapting these novels, these huge stories on the stage with Julissa Pankanya, who wrote the music and performed it live.
Itai Erdal 05:13 And so there was 20 chorus members, and we painted, and the set by Brian Pollack was also stunning. There was a square, like a grid for each chorus member to stand. And so there was like 20 people. There was 20 people, and then principals, and then the musicians.
Itai Erdal 05:33 So there was maybe 26, 27 people on stage in total. And Jimmy takes these epic novels, and with music, and with those little chorus members singing, beautifully singing, and simple choreography that Jimmy did that was so effective.
Itai Erdal 05:47 And that was the first of many shows like that that we did. We did The Idiot, and The Life Inside, and with the same team.
Gabrielle Martin 05:59 were doing the lighting design. Yep.
Itai Erdal 06:01 For all of them, yeah, yeah, we did at least 10 shows together with the same team of Mara Gottler doing costumes, Jelisa doing sound, Brian Dinsett and me doing lights, and then Jimmy kept hiring us and adapting these big novels.
Itai Erdal 06:15 But Crime and Punishment was the first, it's not the first time we worked together, but the first time that it was this huge, ambitious project that sort of the whole world saw what a genius James Fagan Tate was, and everybody wanted to do that kind of theater.
Itai Erdal 06:32 It was physical theater that was driven by music and that had simple, beautiful, super effective choreography and the choreography and the music and the lighting. All the design elements were so naturally intertwined together, were so organically combined that that's why I still, to this day, when I put a portfolio together, I always put pictures from Crime and Punishment because it was also my first time when I sort of dared to do a show only with sidelighting.
Itai Erdal 07:03 I didn't have any front lights almost at all.
Gabrielle Martin 07:07 choice, what inspired that choice, or what was the desired effect.
Itai Erdal 07:10 Well, it was a very dark play in a way, and side lighting highlights the body more than the face, you know, and front lights is great to get the tingle in the eye that everybody loves in musicals and in children's play, but it flattens everything, and side lighting makes everything three -dimensional.
Itai Erdal 07:31 And so by lighting everything from the side, we gave everything depth, and then they would just, it was very easy for somebody to just completely disappear into the darkness, and we really wanted that.
Itai Erdal 07:47 And the side lights were all open white, which is very, very warm, so it felt like candlelit a little bit.
Gabrielle Martin 07:56 You're making me want to see it. I mean, of course I would love to see it, but the way you're pretty into life.
Itai Erdal 08:00 There's an archival. You should watch it. I don't know why nobody produced it after. I mean, there was talk. BAM wanted it in New York and Soul Paper wanted it and I think it was very close to going to some places, but it ended up not going anywhere, which is another reason that it's such an iconic production because so few people got to see it.
Gabrielle Martin 08:18 So was that the beginning of your relationship with Push in the 2005 festival, or were you already working on some of the projects of the series?
Itai Erdal 08:29 That was my first time.
Gabrielle Martin 08:30 men armor or katina done
Itai Erdal 08:32 I did work with Katrina and Norman before, but that was my first time. And I remember when the whole push started as a reading series between TuxyTone and Rumble.
Gabrielle Martin 08:50 So yeah, you've referred to the many productions that you were involved in as a designer over the years Namely with new world after that first year. No, whatever
Itai Erdal 09:00 Everybody really, so many people, so many shows they did were, ended up being part of Push that were like not, yeah there was a show I did from Manitoba Theatre for Young People, about Rick Hansen that ended up being part of Push and there was other shows with Jimmy but then were not New World and then theatre, other theatre replacement shows I'm pretty sure Broiler was also part of Push, I'm not 100% sure but other theatre replacement shows that I've done but also Norman had these breakfasts that he would invite you to come and meet other artists and so for a few years whether I was in the festival designing or not I would get invited to just meet with artists from around the world and that was just a fantastic thing to do and I met some Argentinians and Germans and I remember Limini Potokol came for a few years in a row and Gob Squad and Sishi Pop are all from Berlin and I speak German and so but we spoke English but I got to hang out with them and then go and see their shows and those are some of the best shows I've seen in my life,
Itai Erdal 10:16 really. Some of the shows that those companies that I mentioned, those three companies from Gob Squad is half England but these are the two are Berlin companies, oh no, not Berlin, Limini Potokol is somewhere else in Germany but Sishi Pop is Berlin, I've done some of the strongest work I've ever seen, same with La Maria from Argentina.
Gabrielle Martin 10:38 We spoke about with Boca de lupo, but yeah that 2011
Itai Erdal 10:43 That's the first time that I met these guys and we became friends and then I ended up seeing them in a lot of other festivals around the world. Because then I would travel with how to disappear completely and I would see the same people that I met at Push in other places and you realize the world of international touring is actually very small.
Gabrielle Martin 11:02 And these breakfasts were just at a cafe or at somebody's house.
Itai Erdal 11:07 No, it was always, Norman had his famous favorite place was La Bodega and it was always at La Bodega. Sometimes it was breakfast, sometimes it was late night, it was always paid for by push, which was really nice.
Itai Erdal 11:18 But it was just in, it felt so privileged to be invited to meet with artists from around the world. And I always loved how the festival wasn't just for us to see what the world has to offer, but they also wanted the world to see what we have to offer.
Itai Erdal 11:33 And so I feel like, yeah, working with those people has opened me up as an artist and inspired me. I ended up taking a workshop with Gop Squad, the theater replacement did. So I've worked with them for two weeks and let some of the most eye -opening and inspiring work that I've ever done that maybe want to write and perform and do other things.
Itai Erdal 12:00 And I met them through the push festival. So I think the first kick show I saw of theirs was Kixen.
Gabrielle Martin 12:07 What year, do you remember what year you did that workshop?
Itai Erdal 12:10 don't. It was at least 10 years ago. Maybe 10 years ago. So you had already created atmosphere completely? Yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 12:16 Okay, so you were already working as a director. Please no.
Itai Erdal 12:22 So, performer and writer, yeah, James Long directed How to Disappear, and then Anita Rochon has directed all my shows since, I've never directed them, but I've been writing and performing, and How to Disappear was also heavily influenced by Push, even though it was not at the Push Festival, we were in the very first Push -Off, which Theatre Replacement did, it wasn't even Theatre Replacement then actually,
Itai Erdal 12:44 no, it was Joyce, and yeah, it was not Theatre Replacement, I'm sorry, it was Joyce, and I forget who else, Joyce was the dance person, and there was a theatre person that they did Push -Off, and they asked me to do 10 minutes, and our show wasn't finished, we barely had, we had 10 minutes, but maybe we had half an hour of material, and we just chose 10 minutes, and I think we did the first 10 minutes of the show,
Itai Erdal 13:08 and the College Lab, which was also a brand new venue at the time, and that first Push -Off, the artistic director of On the Boards in Seattle was there, Lady Coplinski, and he immediately fell in love with the show, and came to me after, and I said, I want this show, and I'm going to tell my friends in Portland, and then the Portland People TBH Festival ended up taking it too, and the other person was there was Ken Gass from Factory Theatre,
Itai Erdal 13:38 and the same thing, he booked it on the spot, so even though the show was not even finished yet, because we did it at Push -Off, you got booked to Toronto, which led to many other gigs, and you got booked to Seattle and Portland, which was just a phenomenal experience to be able to take the show to the US, and I would have never gotten these producers to see the show if it wasn't for the Push Festival,
Itai Erdal 14:01 so Push has been instrumental in my career, like you said, on many, many different capacities, and many different, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 14:09 from your artistry, had that opportunity over many years. And so How to Discipline Completely was my introduction to your work. I didn't get to see it back when it had just been premiered, but you shared an archival with me in 2021 when I had just started to push.
Gabrielle Martin 14:25 And that really made me interested to read the script that you were working on at the time for Soldiers of Tomorrow, which was incredibly powerful, jumped off the page. It was really a compelling read.
Gabrielle Martin 14:38 And we were in a position where we were able to come on board as a co -commissioner. And the work was presented at the 2023 Push Festival was premiered. Yeah, which and it was a we had great audiences.
Gabrielle Martin 14:49 And you also have such a community here because you know, your work has been prolific. And it was really just beautiful to follow that process and to see it realized, just you know, by very established artists, you know, you and Nita, artists who really like you know what you're doing and just to to benefit from the treatment that you gave the script was incredible.
Itai Erdal 15:17 Thank you. It was, again, I cannot tell you how Instrumental Push Festival was in creating that show because as a company, the album, my company, we're not on any operating funds. We just write project grants.
Itai Erdal 15:30 And so we just, we come up with a project, we write grants for it. We've been, thank goodness, pretty successful so far in getting those grants, but the grants are very limited in scope. You can only use them for what you said that you would use them for.
Itai Erdal 15:41 And therefore, it's always like barely scraping together enough money to do what you need to do. And creating a piece like this, and that's part of my company's mandate, is that I was determined to give things enough time.
Itai Erdal 15:54 I've seen so many shows do work that looks like it's a great workshop, but it's not ready. And so I was determined, also I'm a lighting designer, I don't need this as my livelihood. I have other means of income.
Itai Erdal 16:05 So I was determined to give the shows enough time and enough workshops until they're ready. And because we were commissioned by you and we got the Canada Council grant and not just one of them, we were able to do several workshops and work on it and work on it and work on it until it was ready.
Itai Erdal 16:20 And that's what made the show good, the time that you bought us by commissioning the piece. Because when you work with the money that is commissioned, I don't, the Push Festival didn't ask me, what did you do with every cent?
Itai Erdal 16:34 You just gave us the money and we could move it around. And we can choose to spend it on a musician, and we can choose to spend it on more rehearsal time. We can choose to spend it on anything we wanted to spend it.
Itai Erdal 16:45 And it shows, the show is tight because we had enough time and enough money to do it properly. And so I can't thank you enough for commissioning it and for believing in it.
Gabrielle Martin 16:57 So tell us about what is soldiers of tomorrow for those who are listening, watching who don't know what it is.
Itai Erdal 17:03 Soldiers of Tomorrow is maybe the story that I've been wanting to tell my whole life because I feel so so strongly about it and it's about my military service, I'm from Israel and You know military service is compulsory in Israel And I was sort of a leftist before I went to the army I always knew that the Palestinians deserve to have a state and when I went to the army I was determined to be the good soldier and my mother said to me You know if we leave the military to all the right -wing fanatics then then If all the people like you don't go then we'll be leaving the army to all the crazy people and we should balance things out And so I went to the army trying to do good And I did sort of my best effort to do good,
Itai Erdal 17:46 but while I was in the army, I realized that You cannot Wear a uniform and and not be an oppressor that the Palestinians who saw me all they saw was you know A guy in uniform. They don't care if I'm a nice guy or if I root for them or if I don't root for them I was still there oppressing them and so During my military service.
Itai Erdal 18:05 I had a real sort of realization that I felt like I was lied to and cheated to by by my country by my Education system by the media and you know all the a lot of the massacres that happened in 1948 and in 1967 I'm not mentioned in any of the history books in Israel and so when I left Israel I was determined to tell the world what is happening in Palestine.
Itai Erdal 18:28 I felt a really strong moral obligation Of course now the shit has hit the fan and things are sort of the worst nightmare scenario that we have right now with this horrible genocide that is happening in Gaza, but Before that when I started writing the play and there was a feeling that a lot of people And just don't understand what's happening there And and just we're afraid to take sides and I wanted to make a play that helps people take sides and to say look I am a proud Jew Everyone that I love lives in Israel if I can criticize Israel and so can you and it felt I felt a real strong moral Obligation that I feel today even stronger and to be that voice because I know what I'm talking about And I've been to Gaza as a soldier and I can tell you how horribly wrong it is And so it's really a play that that covers the entire history of the conflict.
Itai Erdal 19:24 There's a lot of information I think Anita and Colleen Murphy who wrote the creator to play with We're really smart in finding a way to to transfer a lot of information without it ever being didactic without being a lecture It's a very entertaining piece of theater It's a very compelling piece of theater, but it really does explain the entire conflict from beginning to end And it's an attempt of me to take responsibility for my action and As a soldier and to try to make a better future for Palestinians anyway
Gabrielle Martin 20:00 And the work went on to a long run at Summerhall at Edinburgh.
Itai Erdal 20:05 We won an award in Edinburgh and we got a lot of five -star reviews and the last term award. The last term award is the award that they give for innovation. But also more than the awards and the five -star reviews, it was the reaction of the people.
Itai Erdal 20:23 I've had many, many Palestinians and Jews, but a lot of Palestinians come to me after the show and saying, we've never heard an Israeli, we've never heard a Jewish person speak like this. We, in fact, never heard anybody speak like this or iterate those thoughts in a play.
Itai Erdal 20:41 And so many people came to tell me how important they feel their work is. And so being able to go to Edinburgh, it just opened me up to thousands of people who saw the show who would have never seen it in any other way.
Itai Erdal 20:59 And now there's a lot of interest for next season and we're hoping to do a Canadian tour. There's companies who want it in Calgary, in Toronto and in Montreux, sorry, in Ottawa. And I really hope that the show is going to have a long life.
Itai Erdal 21:17 And again, we were able to do that also because of your commissioning money also allowed us to take really good documentation of the show. When we did it at Bush, we filmed it, I wore a lavalier and we had three cameras and we got a really good quality recording of the show that now can help sell the show.
Gabrielle Martin 21:37 it's such a relevant and masterful piece so I really hope that it has a long touring life. Can you talk to us about you know those early days when you were lighting designing for the empty orchestra for crime and punishment up until now your work on Soldiers of Tomorrow and then and you have new works in creation as well.
Gabrielle Martin 21:57 How has your artistic practice developed, grown over this period?
Itai Erdal 22:02 Well, even as a lighting designer, I always felt that I was a storyteller, that I was part of the storytelling, and I think that's what made me a good lighting designer, is that I wasn't just confined to my own thing, but I saw how it affects the entire storyteller.
Itai Erdal 22:18 So people think it's a huge stretch from being a designer to being a performer, but in my mind I was always telling stories. But having the opportunity of having this thing happen to me with my mother and having all the video that I have, and having friends like James Long and Anitha Roshan, who wanted to create a show with me, made me realize that there are no blueprints for a career in theatre or in the arts,
Itai Erdal 22:44 that you can try different things, and if you go to this, then you can do this, and if you go to this, you can do that, and so the success of that show, How to Disappear, opened me up to the possibility of being a performer and a writer, and I realized that those are the most rewarding things that I can do.
Itai Erdal 23:01 How to Disappear completely, we did in 26 different cities. I've had thousands of people come to me to tell me about losing parents, about finding love, which is another theme in the show. Many people told me that they learned more about lighting in an hour of watching that show than in 20 years of directing theatre.
Itai Erdal 23:21 And so being able to connect with people is the most wonderful gift that performing and writing has given me, and I would say that's what's changed. I've realized that I can do a lot of different things.
Itai Erdal 23:38 I've started my own theatre company, so I'm not dependent on other people to hire me, and I can produce my own work, and I can do work about things that I think are important. I also believe in the peer system that we have in this country for various public funding, that if you can articulate your ideas into sentences, and if you're articulate, I suppose, then you can raise money from the government to create art.
Itai Erdal 24:04 And so I'm very thankful for that, and I don't take it for granted, and I think that's the main way that I've... I still love designing lights, I've got to say, I don't imagine ever stopping designing lights.
Itai Erdal 24:15 I can't imagine retiring. I think I'll design lights when I'm 80. And I love designing lights, but I also love being creative in a lot of different ways. I like taking photos, and I like writing, and I like performing, and it's such a wonderful thing to have a balance of being able to do all these things together.
Gabrielle Martin 24:35 Do you have any final words on how you perceive, uh, what you perceive to be the cultural context of push and pushes significance to Vancouver, to your practice? I mean, you've spoken about that to your career quite a bit.
Gabrielle Martin 24:47 Um, and you've also spoken about, you know, how meaningful it was to have these artists, breakfasts or late night gatherings, bringing together international and local artists. Um, yeah. Any last words on?
Itai Erdal 25:01 I think, yeah, I spoke about the significance for myself, but for the city, I think when you travel around the world as much as I do and you go to festivals, when you mention the Push Festival around the world, people's eyes open up.
Itai Erdal 25:14 They're like, oh, I'd like to go there. It is considered, Vancouver has this allure as a very beautiful place, and the Push Festival has this reputation of a festival that brings great works of art. And I think, like I said, the names of the companies that I mentioned earlier that I've seen are some of the best people in the world.
Itai Erdal 25:36 I've met Castelucci, and I've met, you know, Consco Quartet, and I've met, like really, some of the most amazing artists, not just in North America, but in Europe and around the world. And I cannot overemphasize how important that is to our theatre community and to our art scene to be exposed to the world and to have the world exposed to us.
Itai Erdal 26:02 And that's a symbiotic relationship that goes both ways and enriches ourselves as artists and enriches the city. And so, yeah, I think Push is absolutely crucial in raising the bar of the work that we see here because if somebody goes to see a great piece of art at Push, they don't care that it's from some of the best companies.
Itai Erdal 26:25 That's what they want to see. And so it pushes us all to do better work, and it inspires us all to try to create works like some of the best theatres happening around the world.
Ben Charland 26:39 That was a special episode of Push Play in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.
Ben Charland 26:56 A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Ben Charland 27:15 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review.
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| 03 Sep 2024 | Ep. 27 - Collaboration over Competition (2013) | 00:30:22 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Vancouver-based playwright, artistic director and author Marcus Youssef. Show Notes Gabrielle and Marcus discuss:
About Marcus Youssef Marcus’ dozen or so plays, some of which were co-written with friends and colleagues, include Winners and Losers, Leftovers, Jabber, How Has My Love Affected You?, Ali & Ali and the aXes of Evil, Everyone, 3299: Forms in Order, Adrift, Peter Panties, Chloe’s Choice and A Line in the Sand. Though widely varied in terms of style and content, they often some way investigate fundamental questions of difference or “otherness.” They have been performed at theatres and festivals (and school gyms) across Canada, the US, Australia and Europe, including: the Dublin Theatre Festival, Soho Rep (Off-Broadway), Festival Trans Ameriques, PuSh Festival (four times), Foreign Affairs (Berlin), the Brighton Festival (UK), LOKAL (Reykjavik), the Vancouver Art Gallery, Canadian Stage, Wooly Mammoth and the Kennedy Centre (Washington, DC), Tarragon, Factory, the Caravan Farm Theatre, the Arts Club, the Citadel, Noorderzon (Netherlands), Ca Foscari (Venice), Brno Festival (Czech), Aarhus Festival (Denmark), On the Boards (Seattle) the Magnetic North Festival (five times), and many others. Marcus’ work has been translated into multiple languages and is published by both Talonbooks and Playwrights Canada Press. He is the recipient of more than a dozen national and international awards, including the Chalmer’s Canadian Play Award, the Rio-Tinto Alcan Performing Arts Award, the Seattle Times Footlight Award, the Vancouver Critics’ Innovation Award (three times), a Governor General’s Award nomination, as well as multiple local awards and nominations in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. He has been playwright in residence at the Banff Centre, the National Theatre School, Neworld, and Touchstone Theatre. Currently Marcus is an editorial advisor to Canadian Theatre Review, Senior Playwright in Residence at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity, and a Canadian Fellow to the International Society of Performing Arts. Also a writer in other forms, Marcus’ essays, journalism and fiction have appeared in Vancouver Magazine, the Vancouver Sun, Grain, Ricepaper, This Magazine, CTR, the Georgia Straight, The Tyee, on numerous blogs and web magazines and many programs on CBC Radio and TV. Also well-known in Vancouver as a cultural advocate, Marcus has been artistic director of one of the city’s best-known indie producing companies, Neworld Theatre, since 2005. He was the inaugural chair of Vancouver’s Arts and Culture Policy Council, co-chaired the Vancouver municipal political party the Coalition of Progressive Electors. In 2009, Marcus co-founded of Progress Lab 1422, a 6,000 s.f., collaboratively managed rehearsal and production hub in East Vancouver shared by Neworld and three other established independent companies. Marcus has served as an assistant professor at Concordia University in Montreal and on faculty at Capilano University in North Vancouver, where he implemented Canada’s first collaborative, interdisciplinary Bachelors’ degree in Performance, offered jointly with Douglas and Langara Colleges. Marcus lectures widely, and still teaches regularly at Langara’s Studio 58, the University of British Columbia, and the National Theatre School. Marcus graduated from NTS's Acting Program and holds an MFA from UBC. He lives in Vancouver’s Commercial Drive area with his partner, teacher Amanda Fritzlan, and their sons Oscar and Zak. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're investigating the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:24 Today's episode features Marcus Yousef and is anchored around the 2013 Push Festival. Writer, performer, and cultural activist, Marcus Yousef's 15 or so plays have been produced in multiple languages in more than 20 countries across North America, Europe, and Asia, and at the Push Festival many times, often with New World Theatre.
Gabrielle Martin 00:46 His work is often collaborative, highly personal, and almost always investigates questions of difference, belonging, and descent. He is a recipient of Canada's largest theater award, the Semenet Bitch Prize for Theatre, as well as the Vancouver Mayor's Arts Award, an honorary fellowship from Douglas College Berlin, Germany's Icarus Prize, the Rio Tinto Alcan Performing Arts Award, the Chalmers Canadian Play Award,
Gabrielle Martin 01:12 and the Vancouver Critics Innovation Award three times. And for New World Theatre, since its founding in 1994, it has created, produced, and toured new plays, performance events, and digital works. Its mission is to center stories and perspectives that seek to dismantle systems of oppression, and its motto is, plays well with others.
Gabrielle Martin 01:33 Here's my conversation with Marcus.
Gabrielle Martin 01:38 We are here on stolen traditional and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh. It's an absolute privilege to be here. We are also on this land. This is your backyard.
Marcus Youssef 01:56 It's nice in a very nice backyard, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 01:58 in the commercial drive area, which is the area, the neighborhood where I met you, you know. When you were 10 years old. Many years ago, yes, yes. And so this is a, it's always nice to speak with Marcus, but Marcus has been a mentor of mine, and so today will be a nice opportunity to dive into your history, your relationship with Push, mostly through your role with New World Theatre, though it still continues today in other,
Gabrielle Martin 02:23 you know, working in other aspects of your practice, because you're an actor, you're a director at times, still. Sometimes, yeah. Yes, yeah, writer. The very first New World Theatre project with Push was Crime and Punishment in 2005, and we did have the chance to talk to Kamiar the other day about that project.
Gabrielle Martin 02:44 I'm just gonna go through these productions, and then we'll kind of walk chronologically through the relationship with Push. So my name is Rachel Corey, who was presented in 2008 by Push. Nanae, a testimonial play with Urban Inc.
Gabrielle Martin 03:00 and Philippine Women's Center of BC in 2009. Peter Panties with Leaky Heaven Circus in 2011. Pod Plays, The Quartet with Playwrights Theatre Center in 2011. Deustry F. Skis, The Idiot with Vancouver Moving Theatre in 2012.
Gabrielle Martin 03:18 Winners and Losers with Theatre Replacement in 2013, which we'll definitely be speaking about today, because there's a long history with theatre replacement and New World, so that's a great project to highlight.
Gabrielle Martin 03:29 And Leftovers in 2016, King Arthur's Night, and Inside Out in 2018, and The Democratic set with Back to Back Theatre in 2020. Finally, in this last festival, 2024, you were a writer on Because I Love the Diversity, This Micro Attitude, We All Have It, a project by Rakesh Zukesh.
Gabrielle Martin 03:50 Okay, so take us to the beginning. How did your relationship with Push start?
Marcus Youssef 03:57 Yeah, wow, it's weird hearing you just go through that list. It both makes me feel really proud and makes me feel really old at the same time. I think, I actually, if it's OK, just want to say something that came to me as I was listening to you, which I think speaks to both Push and New World and the relationship and also the scene that was built in the last 20 years.
Marcus Youssef 04:22 Which is, if you just think about all those shows, and many people, of course, won't know many of the shows, and all the different organizations of partners and artists who were working on those shows, and the vast array of styles, and forms, and agendas, and ideas, and questions that were at the heart of those shows.
Marcus Youssef 04:43 Vastly different, and yet, at the same time, I would argue, united by something that I think has been central to Push's way of working in the community for two decades, which is this ravenous curiosity and appetite for material and performance that challenges us, both in terms of its content, but also in terms of its form.
Marcus Youssef 05:08 And just if I think about the variety of forms and what you just described, and the variety of, again, organizations and artists working in communities, working on those pieces, it makes me feel really proud of Push, of New World, and of the work we've been able to do over the last couple of decades.
Marcus Youssef 05:26 But to answer your question, to go back to the beginning, and it feels like, I mean, you've talked to Commera about Crime and Punishment, which New World produced in 2004, very early days for Push, year two, or three, or something?
Gabrielle Martin 05:39 The first official festival. The first official festival.
Marcus Youssef 05:42 presentations, but the first official festival and at that time Commier had asked me to take I was teaching at Concordia University of Montreal and Commier, who was artistic director of the New World at the time, wanted to step down and the New World was still quite small at the time and he'd asked me to come out and said, you know, I'll pay, you could make twenty thousand dollars plus free like artistic fees if you come out and take over the company.
Gabrielle Martin 06:04 He said yes.
Marcus Youssef 06:05 Well, not one of the reasons I said yes.
Gabrielle Martin 06:07 Yeah.
Marcus Youssef 06:08 was because he said, you have to come out and see Crime and Punishment. You have to see what's happening here, because I've been gone for a year. And he flew me out to see Crime and Punishment, and I saw this extraordinary piece, which I'm sure Kamir has described, Jimmy Tate and Jelisa Pankaniyya's extraordinary piece that featured, you know, as you know, actors from the downtown east side, students of wide variety of people,
Marcus Youssef 06:30 and in this unbelievably rigorous and precise retelling in which every performer on stage was allowed to be exactly who they were in relationship to the precision that was staged so that it wasn't all exactly the same, but it was so precise and different, how people were different, how the performers were different, was actually the whole point and was like beautifully held and highlighted.
Marcus Youssef 06:55 And I watched that extraordinary production that had, Push had been around longer at the time, had New World been more established as a touring company at that time. There were presenters from all over the place that wanted to bring it with its 18 cast members or whatever, but we just didn't have the capacity.
Marcus Youssef 07:10 And so that had a huge influence on me going, oh, there's a sting going on here. Push, New World, also the other companies that I'm sure you've talked about and are talking with at the time, it was like there's a scene growing here, and that was a big part, not the only part of it, but a big part of my decision and my family's decision to come back.
Gabrielle Martin 07:30 Yeah, that's a big decision. And then you stepped into the role as artistic producer with Adrienne Wong at first.
Marcus Youssef 07:41 No, it was just, well, anyways, boring stuff, it was just me at first, and she was like the producer, and then it was like, oh, we work really well together, and so then we just became co -equal, and then, you know, the leadership model changed over time organically, but it doesn't, nobody really cares about that.
Gabrielle Martin 07:56 So what was your role with realizing, my name is Rachel Corey for the 2008 push festival?
Marcus Youssef 08:02 So it's funny to talk about Rachel Corey in this moment. My name is Rachel Corey. It's a play by, well, it wasn't a play, it's edited versions of Rachel Corey from Olympia Washington's journals and emails that were, after she was murdered by an Israeli Defense Forces bulldozer in the Gaza Strip when she laid down, attempting to block the destruction of a Palestinian pharmacist's home.
Marcus Youssef 08:31 And run over by the bulldozer. The actor Alan Rickman and the now Guardian Editor -in -Chief, Katherine Viner, read her writing online and went in the early days of the internet and went, oh my God, she's an extraordinary writer.
Marcus Youssef 08:48 And they edited it together into a one person documentary play that was just literally her writing. And when that,
Gabrielle Martin 08:58 And how did you decide to do that work, and where was that in relation to your work with New World? Was that the first production? Was that early on?
Marcus Youssef 09:10 It was early on, I can't remember, it was certainly one of the first big programming decisions I made and I knew that the writing was extraordinary.
Gabrielle Martin 09:22 to hear them.
Marcus Youssef 09:22 Rachel's from Olympia which is just across the border from here and I knew that that it was critically important to me that we share that work. The play caused controversy. It was called anti -Semitic usually by people who never read the play.
Marcus Youssef 09:37 There's nothing anti -Semitic about the play. It is absolutely opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestine but Rachel is an extraordinary humanist and push jumped on board right away.
Gabrielle Martin 09:52 So what was your, how did that conversation happen with Push and how, what was your relationship with Push at that time? Like the New World had had a relationship through crime and punishment.
Marcus Youssef 10:01 Yeah, I mean, it's Vancouver and these were early days and everything was smaller for us in our scene then. So it's like Norman was like, we all we all, Norman was our mentor, many of us, right? Adrian, myself, Commyar, like Michael and Jamie from Theatre Replacement.
Marcus Youssef 10:13 He was our mentor. We used to all at one point or other made ten dollars an hour sitting in his kind of grotty apartment of commercial drive doing data entry for him. You know, when he was running Rumble Theatre, another small company.
Marcus Youssef 10:24 So these were relationships that had already existed. And so because it was a scene that was just beginning to emerge, right? But the thing about working with Norman and it was true from the very beginning, always.
Marcus Youssef 10:43 Whatever his trickiness with budget sometimes. He was the most collaborative artistic leader I have ever worked with. He believed in those around him and their impulses and enabling their impulses and doing everything he could.
Marcus Youssef 11:01 I mean, crime was, I'm sure Commyar told this, but crime was a great example. He just kept telling Commyar, how many people do you need? You know, when Commyar would be would go to Jimmy and like and that was what happened with Rachel Corey.
Marcus Youssef 11:13 I was like, this is an important piece. I think it should be a push. I think it should be in our international festival now that we seem to maybe have one. And Norman said, yes, absolutely. And yeah, and all sorts of amazing things.
Marcus Youssef 11:28 I mean, you don't want to. I don't know. It's easy when doing these things to kind of do rose tinted, make everything sound great. Like it was, you know, but a lot of really great things happen. Like we did it at the Vanna on commercial drive, a very unusual venue.
Marcus Youssef 11:42 But because it was in this neighborhood, because it felt like in the community, because we wanted to be in an unorthodox space for this. And Norman was completely into that. I mean, the show, the only problem with it was it was too small and, you know, we sold out so quickly.
Marcus Youssef 11:59 It was, you know, it was it was impossible to get people access to the show who want everybody wanted to see it. But also push was immediately very, you know, community partnerships. And, you know, one of the things we did, I was connected to and a rabbi of a liberal congregation here, Rabbi David Mivis, a really beautiful man and thinker and provocative kind of activist.
Marcus Youssef 12:22 And we created community nights for his congregation to come and see the show on their own like in a kind of safe space. Long before we were using words like safe space and to talk with us afterwards.
Marcus Youssef 12:34 And those are some of the most productive and exciting conversations I've ever had after shows. They weren't easy, but they were fantastic. So, yeah, that level of like attention, care and detail and also support of mine and my collaborators, artistic impulses and and also community, communitarian impulses were always at the center of of how the relationship worked.
Marcus Youssef 12:58 Budgets sometimes got a little tricky.
Gabrielle Martin 13:01 I know that's really clear in what you're sharing, that care, I think, is really clear with regard to also really thinking about how the audience is going to best experience the work or how the kind of space that will do justice to the piece and the kind of conversations that need to happen around it to really...
Gabrielle Martin 13:19 Yeah, exactly.
Marcus Youssef 13:21 Yeah, we were doing that work, and it was it was good And there were protests and there was a big article in the Globe and Mail and people called me and denounced me and you Know for being anti -Semitic and because you didn't there was no social media at the time Or it was very early days, but but that was fine, too I mean, it's interesting it's different now with the social media to everything just goes In a way that it you know it just it's all it all feels like a tire fire immediately now and at the time it didn't It was stressful,
Marcus Youssef 13:50 but it also felt like you could address things
Gabrielle Martin 13:53 And it sounds like you were creating and realizing it within a community that was quite supportive between the company and also it sounds like in partnership with the festival, which I'm sure made a difference in fielding that criticism.
Marcus Youssef 14:09 How can we, like for me the question is always like, how can we engage others who may, you know, may be critical but want to engage? Do you know what I mean? Like that's always the, I mean, people who don't want to engage or just want to, you know, shit all over you, that's fine.
Marcus Youssef 14:24 Like you just kind of have to ignore that as you well know. But creating opportunities for real engagement with folks who, yeah, who may be troubled or upset but have the desire to engage. That's where for me it gets really exciting.
Gabrielle Martin 14:41 And I know that Back -to -Back Theatre, which is an international company which has been presented at PUSH, it's now been presented at PUSH a few times, but that seeing their work was quite influential and the beginning of future collaborations, can you just talk about where that fits into this stream of PUSH?
Marcus Youssef 15:01 Let's just maybe, you know, maybe hop over Nene, a, I can't remember the exact, a documentary play. A documentary play, is that right? Nene, a documentary play?
Gabrielle Martin 15:15 A testimonial play. A testimonial play. Sorry, I forgot. In 2009. And we didn't kind of...
Marcus Youssef 15:18 briefly skip over that but just to mention it because that was like another great example of like I had nothing artistically to do with that but it was Alex Ferguson and Caleb Fraser but but like another beautiful example of like these you know this incredible show about Filipino nannies and caregiving workers and in based on all this research whatever I won't go into it all but installation play then again at the end had this incredible community event where the audience sat around in the final kind of act of the play or the event sat around and had a facilitated conversation and many people who employed Filipino nannies brought their Filipino nannies to the show and again it was so complicated because the the employers would often be like hey so you don't talk talk say what you think you know oh my god yeah and then nannies in these the employed in this very interesting and weird complicated situation where almost being expected sometimes to perform their own liberation or something inside this like so dramatic so complicated and again really for me indicative of how push created opportunities for you know the kinds of complicated formal and content events like to take place that that I don't think there would have been a place for in the city prior to push existing so anyway but just skip briefly over that or to just say that about that one but but yeah so shortly after that I guess is when I began working with Niall McNeil who people who pay attention might might be familiar with a playwright and an actor whose life includes Down syndrome and we'd started writing this project together Peter Panties he'd wanted to adapt Peter Pant he doesn't really write or writes at the level of a sort of kindergarten somebody in kindergarten but he always is identified as a writer and we'd started work on that and but you know I had to figure out how we were gonna do that together and that around that time push presented back to back which is a mixed ability company and kind of international art stars as well based near Melbourne and we went I went and saw the small metal objects at push and I won't you know I can go on and on I won't describe the show in too much detail but was in the library and we were in the atrium of the library and we were all on risers and the library was still functioning people were coming and going and we all had headsets or earphones I should earbuds and at some point there was music and it all just looked like real life was a dance and then there was at some point we started hear people talk and then we suddenly realized the action was happening in the midst of real life when we started we could identify where they were and it was mixed about both neurotypical and neurodiverse actors and one of the most extraordinary shows I've ever seen and it was a talk back that night and I stayed for the talk back and the talk back was really complicated and confusing between the neurodiverse and neurotypical artists and when I saw that I went okay it's gonna be okay because that's just as complicated as what I'm experiencing with Nile and these guys who are international art stars they haven't figured it out either so it's gonna be okay and that was huge huge for me and and then you know we you know you know fast -forward nine years or ten years or whatever it is and we were collaborating with back -to -back on the Democratic Senate push you know and working quite closely with them and I was doing workshops for them and you know
Gabrielle Martin 18:48 And so that relation, you just kept in touch from that point, or you got back in touch, you were put in touch by push, or did that relationship come about to the point that you collaborated? Yeah. I always say that, like...
Marcus Youssef 19:00 you know I have a lot of international relationships now and I do a lot of international collaboration and I would say that hey you can't like parse it exactly but honestly 80% of it like at some point usually fairly recently is because of push like literally like without I mean that's where it becomes really obvious to me it's like without push my career would look nothing like it looks period
Gabrielle Martin 19:25 Mmm.
Gabrielle Martin 19:28 let's talk about winners and losers a bit so yeah a collaboration with theater replacement what was winners and losers and what was the process of realizing that for the festival in 2013
Marcus Youssef 19:40 Yeah, I mean, Winter's Losers in some ways is a bit different in that it was more of just a straight -up presentation of something that already existed. But I'll tell you, and this is actually kind of in the push context that, again, I don't know how interesting to people.
Marcus Youssef 19:53 So, Winter's Losers is myself and James Long. It's a show that had a very long touring life and a kind of signature production for both New World and theater placement and in the international touring scene a bit too.
Marcus Youssef 20:04 And it had a big life. It got us to New York and all that stuff. Actually, that's my favorite. This is just braggy anecdotal, but it was when we were in New York performing it off -Broadway and I came upstairs.
Marcus Youssef 20:19 And there was Wallace Shawn. Do you know Wallace Shawn? No. Well, you're not a theater person. Do you see Princess Bride?
Gabrielle Martin 20:27 Oh yeah. The little... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marcus Youssef 20:30 at Swellish, and also probably one of the most extraordinary avant -garde playwrights. Yeah, he was the dino in Toy Story, but actually, he's a legendary avant -garde and political playwright. Anyway, he was there, and it was just that he loved the show.
Marcus Youssef 20:47 He stuck around, stuff like that. Anyway, you can cut that up. That's just a brag. But one of the cool things about Winners and Losers was we had already made the show, but we did an excerpt of it at Push -Off.
Gabrielle Martin 21:04 Hmm
Marcus Youssef 21:05 which is the sort of ancillary event that that that grew up inside of our next two push that the industry people who are at push come and visit and that was i've never had that happen before we did like i don't know a half hour excerpt of it and you know it was at progress i have the space i helped co -found on the east side and we were literally swarmed with people going afterwards going yeah when can we bring it to iceland when can we bring it to ireland when can we bring it to the uk when can we bring it to italy like it was never happened to me before hasn't happened really in the same way since but it was like it was wild and that was very much again like
Gabrielle Martin 21:44 This piece spoke to people for the experimentation in form, for the performance, what was so attractive to people and to presenters.
Marcus Youssef 21:55 in time to some extent I think but it was like it's a game that we made up called winners and losers and we name a person place your thing and debate whether it's a winner or loser and over the course of the show it becomes more it becomes it starts as a game a very funny and about pop culture and stupid things and then becomes very personal it becomes about us and I think there are two maybe off the top of my head two things that spoke to people in the moment in a way one was like the authenticity of the performance like we were playing ourselves was all edited versions of real of transcripts of real debates we had and we were ruthlessly and brutally honest but also very funny because we're good improvisers so there was that and it was a moment where yeah we're always seeking in I remember being on it was showing up at something we were applying for money or whatever it was a city thing and walking into the room and it was an interview and this woman who was kind of just whatever not a not an arts person went oh my god I saw winners and losers I like that so much I hate plays and we're always searching for for similitude right like what feels real what feels and they'd have that I would say that's one and then we think about polarization and the binary it was all about the binary and the kind of bankruptness of the binary but we made it in 2012 so it was a bit of a head of its curve in that so I those are two things also Jamie and I are you know we're charming
Gabrielle Martin 23:19 Okay, so there's obviously New World and is prolific. You've been prolific in terms of, you know, all the projects that you've realized and worked on. Can you talk about the evolution or the growth of New World from crime and punishment or my name is Rachel Corey, you know, right through to the democratic set and also your own personal trajectory in terms of practice into the current, it's to now.
Marcus Youssef 23:55 Yeah, well, to speak to New World, I think that, and this is so tied to push, it became possible for New World to become, I mean, a bigger, like, you know, and to talk about it in business terms, which isn't maybe the point, but is also really important, the only growth market in Vancouver for live performance in the last 20 years has been largely because of push.
Marcus Youssef 24:18 The arts club, I guess, has grown a bit. You know, the traditional theatre, but traditional theatre hasn't grown much here, but the marketplace for work that is more experimental, more political, plays with form has grown because of push, because suddenly there were, you know, 20 or 30 artistic directors or presenters from all over the world coming here to see work with the intention of, like, trying to buy something if they liked it,
Marcus Youssef 24:43 and thought it made sense for their venues.
Gabrielle Martin 24:46 Hmm
Marcus Youssef 24:47 That's huge, and New World was able to be a part of that, as was theater placement and many others. So, in business terms, that, in more artistic terms for both, I mean, I guess I'll speak for myself.
Marcus Youssef 25:01 I talked at the beginning about the range of work, or the range of styles, the range of questions. I would say that my personal relationship with Push has made it possible, and I'd say this is also true of my personal relationship with BAMF, the BAMF Center.
Marcus Youssef 25:20 There are certain places that have made it possible for me to follow my impulse. I am not the sort of artist who makes one thing, or one kind of thing. I have an unbelievably varied practice, which, you know, works to my advantage and disadvantage, right?
Marcus Youssef 25:35 It's not a great brand, but it's fantastic for being able to respond to the real curiosities and questions and frustrations that I have. Because I'm like, okay, well, there's that thing that's happening, and I can respond to that, and I have to figure out how to respond to that in this way, because that's what makes sense for that, and I'm not limited in the same way.
Marcus Youssef 25:59 And again, because of what Push is, it helped make that possible for me to do that. And I would say the last piece, maybe, that occurs to me, I think this is true of me as an individual, but I think it's also true of New World.
Marcus Youssef 26:17 Like, that idea of collaboration, not competition.
Gabrielle Martin 26:22 Hmm
Marcus Youssef 26:23 um which has been you know for the for the little the indie scene in Vancouver, indie theater and performance scene in Vancouver of in my generation so central and so key to its success and growth um that began with Norman.
Gabrielle Martin 26:41 Yeah.
Marcus Youssef 26:41 And that began with PUSH. And we, and it didn't end with norm. We took it and made it better and fucked up sometimes and whatever, but that way Norman would look at you and you do it now too and it's awesome.
Marcus Youssef 27:00 Like you did it with Rakesh and I for Because I Love the Diversity. You had an impulse about a connection that might be possible. And I didn't go, oh, he's not a very well -known maker. So I'm better than he is.
Marcus Youssef 27:13 And so it's not enough money or you know what I mean? I went, oh, Gabe has an impulse about this and I trust Gabe. So I'm gonna see what this is. And you know what? Like it's been a slightly chaotic process as we know, but I look forward to working on that piece and I love him and Alessia and we've become friends and collaborators across from India to Belgium to Vancouver and the work is having life.
Marcus Youssef 27:41 And so, and that's that. It's not going, because there is a way of thinking that's more corporatist and that is like, you come to me and I go, okay, is that gonna further my career? And if I had asked myself that question, I would have been like, maybe not.
Marcus Youssef 27:58 Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 28:00 Yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 28:00 We'll be right back. KATHRYN We'll be right back.
Marcus Youssef 28:01 but actually it furthers my practice, which ultimately I think does further Wedge career actually. But yeah, so I'd say that idea, which I think you're such a great inheritor, or like inheritor, I don't know if that's the right word, but like you also practice that in my experience.
Marcus Youssef 28:22 Oh, thank you Marcus. And that's what's so great about, for me, about having, I mean, other than that something, known each other for a long time, but also like having you at the helm.
Gabrielle Martin 28:34 Well, it has really been nice to be in conversation with so many of the companies that have been in relationship with PUSH since the early days and that theme has been so present. This identifying the generous spirit of Norman and then that collaborative spirit that grew and developed with the festival and around, you know, in Vancouver amongst these companies at this time, but that real sense of collaboration over competition and it's just really exciting to hear about that.
Gabrielle Martin 29:04 And also we see what all these companies have done and how that's also supported the growth of PUSH.
Marcus Youssef 29:13 That's been reciprocal and yeah.
Tricia Knowles 29:17 That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run January 23rd to February 9th, 2025 in Vancouver, British Columbia. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Tricia Knowles 29:38 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charlin. A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabrielle Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. | |||
| 08 Oct 2024 | Ep. 32 - Find Your Place and Transcend It (2018) | 00:30:36 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with performance artist Ralph Escamillan. Show Notes Gabrielle and Ralph discuss:
About Ralph Escamillan Ralph Escamillan is a queer, Canadian-Filipinx performance artist, teacher and community leader based on the unceded territories of the xwməθkwəy̓əm, Skwxwú7mesh, Səl̓ílwətaʔ/Selilwitulh Nations - on so called Vancouver, BC. Starting at age 14, Ralph trained first in Breakdancing then explored a multitude of other street dance styles such as HipHop, Popping, House, Waacking and Locking. His passion for dance expanded to include training in Vogue, Ballroom, Ballet, Modern, Jazz and was a graduate of Contemporary Training Program Modus Operandi in 2015. Ralph has worked/toured with Vancouver companies: Company 605, Co. Erasga Dance, Kinesis Dance Somatheatro, Out Innerspace Theatre, Wen Wei Dance, Mascall Dance, apprenticed with Kidd Pivot in (2014) and and was a guest dancer with Ballet BC (2020). In the commercial industry, he’s worked with choreographers including AJ Aakomon, Luther Brown, Kenny Ortega, Tucker Barkely and Mandy Moore as well as artists Victoria Duffield and Zendaya Coleman, and was a guest dancer for Janet Jackson’s “Unbreakable” tour in 2015. With his company FakeKnot he creates work that strives to understand the complexities of identity using sound, costume, technology and the body. Ralph is currently premiered his all philippine cast work inspired by the queen of Philippine textile Piña in Vancouver May 4-6 2023 (Co-Presentation with SFU Woodward’s Cultural Programs and The Dance Centre). Ralph ‘Posh’ Gvasalia Basquiat has been in the Ballroom Scene since 2014, founding his own Kiki House of Gvasalia in Vancouver and joined the Mainstream House of Basquiat in 2021. The founder and Artistic/Executive Director of the non-profit organization VanVogueJam, Ralph shares his passion for Vogue/Ballroom culture at his weekly pay-what-you-can classes and vogue balls, acting as a beacon for the queer dance/culture in Western Canada. Ralph was recently awarded the Inaugural Miriam Adams Bursary fund at the DCD Hall Of Fame in October 2022 in Toronto, aswell as the Inaugural RBC Emerging Artist Award at the 2023 Governor General Performing Arts Awards in Ottawa. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Gabrielle Martin 00:40 Gabrielle Martin 00:54 Gabrielle Martin 01:11 Gabrielle Martin 01:25 Ralph Escamillan 01:33 Gabrielle Martin 01:47 Gabrielle Martin 02:05 Ralph Escamillan 02:18 Gabrielle Martin 02:30 Ralph Escamillan 02:35 Gabrielle Martin 02:39 Ralph Escamillan 02:46 Ralph Escamillan 03:08 Gabrielle Martin 03:14 Ralph Escamillan 03:15 Ralph Escamillan 03:40 Ralph Escamillan 03:56 Gabrielle Martin 04:15 Gabrielle Martin 04:29 Ralph Escamillan 04:33 Ralph Escamillan 05:02 Ralph Escamillan 05:33 Ralph Escamillan 05:51 Ralph Escamillan 06:11 Ralph Escamillan 06:41 Gabrielle Martin 06:47 Ralph Escamillan 06:55 Ralph Escamillan 07:12 Ralph Escamillan 07:30 Ralph Escamillan 08:04 Ralph Escamillan 08:21 Gabrielle Martin 08:28 Ralph Escamillan 08:50 Ralph Escamillan 09:04 Ralph Escamillan 09:23 Ralph Escamillan 09:41 Gabrielle Martin 09:45 Ralph Escamillan 09:53 Ralph Escamillan 10:14 Ralph Escamillan 10:27 Gabrielle Martin 10:33 Ralph Escamillan 10:35 Ralph Escamillan 11:00 Ralph Escamillan 11:53 Gabrielle Martin 12:14 Ralph Escamillan 12:16 Gabrielle Martin 12:22 Ralph Escamillan 12:23 Gabrielle Martin 12:29 Gabrielle Martin 12:43 Ralph Escamillan 12:59 Ralph Escamillan 13:13 Ralph Escamillan 13:47 Ralph Escamillan 14:16 Ralph Escamillan 14:37 Gabrielle Martin 14:48 Ralph Escamillan 15:03 Ralph Escamillan 15:23 Ralph Escamillan 15:55 Ralph Escamillan 16:20 Ralph Escamillan 16:38 Ralph Escamillan 16:56 Gabrielle Martin 17:00 Ralph Escamillan 17:23 Ralph Escamillan 17:42 Ralph Escamillan 17:53 Gabrielle Martin 18:09 Gabrielle Martin 18:25 Ralph Escamillan 18:35 Ralph Escamillan 18:56 Ralph Escamillan 19:10 Ralph Escamillan 19:31 Ralph Escamillan 19:57 Ralph Escamillan 20:22 Ralph Escamillan 20:35 Ralph Escamillan 20:49 Ralph Escamillan 21:15 Gabrielle Martin 21:37 Ralph Escamillan 22:06 Ralph Escamillan 22:33 Ralph Escamillan 22:58 Gabrielle Martin 23:06 Ralph Escamillan 23:31 Ralph Escamillan 23:53 Ralph Escamillan 24:22 Ralph Escamillan 24:53 Ralph Escamillan 25:11 Gabrielle Martin 25:18 Gabrielle Martin 25:36 Ralph Escamillan 25:51 Ralph Escamillan 26:17 Ralph Escamillan 26:35 Ralph Escamillan 26:54 Ralph Escamillan 27:14 Ralph Escamillan 27:31 Ralph Escamillan 27:57 Ralph Escamillan 28:19 Ralph Escamillan 28:38 Gabrielle Martin 28:50 Gabrielle Martin 29:21 Ralph Escamillan 29:26 Ben Charland 29:31 Ben Charland 29:48 Ben Charland 30:24 | |||
| 16 Nov 2023 | Ep. 3 - PLI: Locating humanity in risk and imperfection | 00:33:51 | |
Inbal Ben Haim discusses the theatrical power of creating danger onstage. PLI runs Feb 2nd-3rd at Push Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Inbal Ben Haim, the Israeli circus artist behind PLI. They discuss how Inbal’s work draws connections between the intimate and the spectacular, what defines a work as “circus,” the power and originality of imperfection, and more. Co-presented with Chutzpah! Festival. Here's what Gabrielle and Inbal discuss:
About Inbal Ben Haim Born in Jerusalem in 1990, Inbal Ben Haim grew up in the Israeli countryside. After studying visual arts, she discovered the circus in 2004 at the Free Dome Project then the Shabazi Circus. The call of heights and creating with her body led her to specialize first in the static trapeze, then the rich minimalism of the aerial rope.In 2011 she left her homeland to follow her artistic path in France, furthering her research through important artistic encounters and training: first at the Centre Régional des Arts du Cirque PACA – Piste d’Azur, then the Centre National des Arts du Cirque in Châlons-en-Champagne, from which she graduated in December 2017 (29th graduating class). In Summer 2018, she premiered Racine(s) (Root(s)), which developed from her meeting the musician, composer, and arranger David Amar and the director Jean Jacques Minazio. At the same time, she developed a teaching method for therapeutic circus and worked in various contexts in Israel and France. By blending circus, dance, theatre, improvisation, and visual arts, Ben Haim has created her own form of poetic expression. Largely inspired by the human bond made possible by the stage, the ring, and the street, she aims to create strong connections between the audience and the artist, the intimate and the spectacular, the earth and air, and the here and there. Land Acknowledgement Inbal joins the podcast from Paros, Greece. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin. PuSh's director of programming. And today's episode highlights a different kind of strength in the context of circus. I'm speaking with Inbal Ben Haim, who created the concept, directed and performs in Pli. Pli is being presented at the PuSh Festival February 2nd to 3rd, 2024. Between flesh and raw material, the ground and the air in Pli, we dive into a landscape that is continually built, torn down and rebuilt. Layer by layer, the body and the paper travel together in a fragment of our changing world. Inbar blends circus, dance, theatre, improvisation and visual arts to create her own form of poetic expression. The call of heights and creating with her body led her to specialise first in the static trapeze, then the rich minimalism of the aerial rope. In 2011, she left Israel to follow her artistic path in France, training at the Centre National des Arts du Cirques. I'm excited for you to hear a discussion that highlights her unique interdisciplinary approach. Here is my conversation with Inbal. I just want to start by acknowledging that I am here on the ancestral unceded traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish) xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh). It's an absolute privilege to be here as a settler. And I am speaking with you Inbal and where are you?
Inbal [00:01:30] Hey. So I'm really happy to have this contact for this talk. At the moment I'm in Paros, which is a Greek island, but actually my home base is in the south of France and my origins comes from Israel. So as you can see, as many circus artists, we are a little bit all over.
Gabrielle [00:01:53] I'm sure that that also informs your practice. And you have a very rich interdisciplinary practice with many sources of inspiration. And I'm going to get right into asking you about that and about how you approach Pli. So you describe yourself as a circus artist whose work creates strong connections between the intimate and the spectacular. And when I saw your work for the first time, I was struck by how the spectacular moments unfold through a quiet exploration of your body in relation to material. And your work is also interdisciplinary, for Pli you collaborated with visual artist and paper engineer Alexis Mérat and visual artist and set designer Domitille Martin. And considering all these aspects of your practice, what defines your work as circus? Like still, you define your work as circus, and can you tell us about that?
Inbal [00:02:43] I think in a way it's that's the question of how do we define today's circus, the contemporary circus, the creation circus. We have lots of definitions of modern or even classical circus before. But for me, and it's a very, very personal definition, I define circus as a place of meeting and connecting. Today we see that all boundaries between arts forms, but not only art forms, about practices, about some cultures, like, as I said, I'm coming from Israel, I'm living in France, but at the moment I'm in Greece. We have all those connections of places, cultures, practices. And for me, circus is a place where things can meet and gather together. And there is a place for everything. There is a place for dance, there is a place for music, there is a place for theatre, there is a place for sports and sport practice. I think it's for me it's a little bit the heritage that we have also from the traditional circus. You know, it was a place where there was a space for kinds of weird stuff, some people or phenomenons that didn't found their place in society in different places, or people just doing very exceptional things that weren't yet inside the discipline of I am doing vertical rope or I'm doing trapeze. People were just very exposing a very exceptional abilities, and those were the places that people gathered around. So for me, it's a little bit of heritage that I take from traditional circus, but in out these days and for me a circus, it's a place where all those things can meet in an engaged way. Still, I think what something which is very important for me is the engagement of the body, whatever that means. We can we can ask what it means also. But yes, So first of all, for me, a circus, it's a meeting point, it's a circle point. So that's one thing. And of course, what interests me is how to combine a technique of climbing on aerial movement with bands, with martial arts, with fine arts and visual arts, with improvisation, with the inner work, as these things are touching so many aspects. And the second thing, what you said about the field where I'm working is somewhere between the spectacular and the intimate. It brings me to ask what is spectacular today or what's what's in the circus artists bring us to to want to share with the public because we have our abilities. You know, we kind of we learn so much, we train so much. We're a kind of superheroes in our body, like, you know, like a very athletes, a strong, flexible. We we work all our life for that. But then finally, when what we come what I want and people in my project and also people around me we come on stage or to make art and what what do we want to share the we want to share this kind of superhero that we are or the very human that we are. And this place between being very, very human like everybody and also have this a little bit superhuman abilities. This is something that I found really interesting because it's open possibilities. In one time, it can make lots of them a very close empathy and connection with the public because we're the same we we want to share our vulnerability. We want to share how we're also fragilities or some moments which are fragile or some moments where we are uncertain. We just we don't want to share just "look at this. I am perfect." Like a little bit older circus can have this style. We use those tools, but we want to you to share something which is profoundly human and that connects people. So for me, in a way, this is the contemporary spectacular to being able already in our society where also fragility is still like a kind of taboo. We need also in our daily life, we need to be kind of perfect, perfect a bit, the machine being very functional and everything. So how can we bring something which is so superhuman but then sometimes so much human and we can build the bridge between those two things?
Gabrielle [00:08:35] Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I find your work so exciting, because it is reframing what we would expect from circus or maybe some kind of traditional expectations around what, yeah, what is spectacular and seeing bodies doing things that we could never imagine ourselves doing, which is still can be beautiful for metaphors of surpassing our limitations, but also often creates this distance between the performer and the audience and, and, and just maybe limits the kind of range of of expression within the form, within the discipline.
Inbal [00:09:15] You know, you can you can think about spectacular hour, like doing a triple Salto and you can think about spectacular about climbing on paper. What do I share when I do a triple Salto? I share lots of things. When I do a triple Salto, it's I don't diminuate. What do I share in this situation and what do they share in this situation? They are both spectacular.
Gabrielle [00:09:40] And that kind of brings me into this next question I have for you, because you've shared that your work became more interesting when a part of your body was injured and then healed, than when it was perfect, and that it's in this kind of vulnerability that I find a different strength. And I think this is especially liberating in the circus context, which is usually obsessed with perfection. And you've spoken about this a bit, you know, the kind of relationship with the body that's a machine or with how we're living our lives as being machine like and having these expectations. And you talk about the process of embracing this different strength. So can you explain a little bit more about that and how this informs your work?
Inbal [00:10:23] Of course. So I start from the very personal stories that when I was in a circus school in France, so I was really like I was realising my dream being a circus school and I was really training so hard and don't listening to my body so much about needing... Yeah, you know, when we are in circus school we are like "aaahh" and it's, it's amazing also. And then I got injured quite seriously. I broke the cartilage of my shoulder in a way that I was really needed an operation. So I stopped. I waited for the operation. I did all the physiotherapy and all this process was like one year and a half in which I couldn't hang on my right shoulder at all. And this is I was doing a vertical rope or aerial dance. And, you know, it's a quite dramatic to say for an aerial artist, you cannot hang on your shoulder like, this is my base tool, ike people are walking, I'm hanging. I had two choices. One choice was to stop, to make a big stop and not working on the for all the time of this injury. What's the circus school proposed me to do is said, "okay, you can go back to Israel and you come back when you're healed." And the other option which I choose was to continue coming and to continue working and see what can I do differently or what is possible even inside the situation. Because still it was like my shoulders, but I have also the rest of my body. And for me, mentally speaking, it was not possible to stop because when we stop, this is not also only body impact. There is lots of psychological and mental impacts and we should talk about more about that, what are the mental impacts of injury and circus or of this seeking of perfection also? So I didn't have these beautiful ideas of, yes, I will do things differently. I just was I must come back to the studio day after day, because if not, I got depressed and then I come and I cannot hang. So I must search other things, you know? So it came from a really need of very basically things. So I started searching and seeing, how can I move differently? Can I hang, you know, very practically, can I hang from different parts of my body, which is not the the shoulders? Can I hang from my knees? Can I hang from my toes? Can I can how can I work with the rope without hanging? How can I work with the objects? Maybe the rope doesn't must be hanged. Maybe I can work with it differently. You know, I was really. I had, like, one year and a half. I must do something. So I needed to find other things. And at that moment, I also came back to my background in dance and in the fine arts, because I was doing cinema and the visual arts in my high school. My mother is a fine artist, so I had some like really, I had the chance, I had some more tools. So I said, okay, I cannot hang? Can I, can I can I drop with the rope? Okay. The rope is a line. Can I draw with it? Can I can I open a old rope and see what there is inside and try to start? And, you know, and I had this freedom because I was in the frame of circus school, and still I could do whatever, not whatever I wanted but finally I found it's like a very big chance that I were I was not able to do what everybody do. And that was a tragedy for me at the moment. I was like, "Oh, I am going to lose all my dream of being a professional circus artist or being in superior school. I just do my small stuff." Then as of today, I said like, "Wow, had so much luck that I was not able to do what everybody do because it's the highway, you know, you do you, you, you do your training, you do your figures, You do what everybody do in Instagram that you saw from da-da-da then to go to the audition to... And there is very small possibilities to go beside because it's not on our what we said "ah, this is valuable" and in this way I found it so much richness and from the moment that I acknowledged this, this that's "okay. This is by having a limitation. This is by having an imperfection thing." I found something which is so valuable and it is a much more unique. And, you know, I invented like a new technique for rope. Invented, I developed that I think you saw in the scene, which is like the knitting rope. I never saw someone doing it. Maybe someone is doing it else in the world. And actually it comes from the research that I couldn't hang, so I was needed to be sitting on or having my weight in different parts and not just hanging on my hands. And that made me develop a whole new technique that finally everybody were interesting at that, much more than if I was doing my pirouette on the rope. So like, okay, wow, it's I thought I'm the like the worst in the class. But finally, everybody want to see those new things. This made me a lot of changing my point of view of of what is this seeking of perfection? Because perfection is we want to be like someone else that we see. This is like a little bit some kind of copy paste process. We I'm sorry if this is my very point of view, but we are never perfect. We are a human. Like the fact that we are unique as as a persons makes that we are not perfect. And this is through our places of break and perfect of non-perfections that we have our very special offer that we can bring to art, to the world, to our body, to circus. And I'm working with a student. She's handicapped in one arm and she's doing rope. We are like about to invent a new way to do rope. So it's non perfection. This handicap make like open amazing field of inventing and finding some new stuff. This is the moment I said, okay, perfection is really nice. Like, you know, society do it so much good for so long. But actually what's art bring what's what's make us some empathy or connection is the places that we are not perfect.
Gabrielle [00:18:14] And original, right but unique, you know, demonstrating an expression that's unique to to who we are and who we are in our full selves. And I think definitely in order to make circus more diverse and more accessible, because there's often a critique that it's not very diverse, because if we're if to us circus means a form where people are doing a certain level of acrobatics and have a gymnastics base, well not everybody has that training from a very young age. And if that's how we define circus, then it doesn't leave room for other forms of exploration that ultimately, I think, adds so much to the form. And I think it's really interesting because there's relatively few circus artists in Canada with in comparison to the amount of work that exists for circus arts. When you compare it to other disciplines like dance, where there's a lot more dancers compared to how much paid work that is for dancers in this country. And so I think what happens is there's a lot of validation that circus artists can receive and also a livelihood which is incredibly necessary and important. And at the same time, I think means that there's less incentive often for circus artists to explore in a way that's really different from those and an expression of circus that aligns with what will sell and what will get work and what will provide a more immediate validation. I want to know, though, about your therapeutic circus, because I know that you've developed a teaching method for therapeutic circus. And yeah, to me, therapeutic and circus don't don't come together based on my own experience as a circus artist in the past. So I'm really curious about about your work there.
Inbal [00:20:12] First of all, I must say, I'm not a therapist. I'm I'm not I don't have this studies, but I was working actually started when I was doing my civil service in Israel in a boarding school with youth at risk. And it was already a moment that I did circus for a few years. But I was very interesting about social work and all kinds of impact that we can bring to society and to people's life. And I noticed that when I do Circus just with the kids that I was working with, they were going through many things. Like if I was doing lots of like a hand, not hand to hand, but acro yoga or acro porter what we call in France. So they needed to trust me. And if in the beginning they didn't trust me so little by little, that's what the trust has built between us. Just because they give me their weights and their hands and they know that if I will drop like, if I will not hold them, they will drop. But if they will not hold me, I will drop. So there is like this very equal relationship. Or when I proposed them to do some rope, it was very, very basic things. But I saw them going through their fear and being able to be there for with with them and going through this fear with them and finally getting somewhere, which is so valuable because, you know, like youth at risk, they used to have, you're not used to hear... You're not good at that. You're not good at school. Your family is problematic. You know, so many problems. And suddenly they do something that other people in school don't do or, you know, something which is exceptional. So to see how what's the impact of this on their values, on some psychological, more point of view or on that than dynamic in a group of doing like a pyramid together. So being able to collaborate and to listen to everybody and to do the same thing, the same movement, to throw someone on the air at the same time, you know, some listening that you can do only from the body. I saw the impacts because I was there guide, daily guide at the boarding school. So I saw, okay, so now with the surface, they trust me more. So when I come to wake them up and I said, Listen, you should wake up. So this is like, okay, I believe you. It's going to be a good day today, maybe. I saw I saw very personal impacts inside. So this is something that I wanted to develop with my partner at the time. And slowly, slowly I started to work to develop some workshops that use circus as a tool or for those kinds of things, for confidence, for going through fears, for having dealing with failure or with success and value a situation. Also everybody in society, I think it is something which is so common. We all fail, we all afraid first and we all react in some ways when we are afraid, we all have issues with confidence, like it's very human, all that, but especially for like a special Publix as a boarding school, Youth at Risk Psychiatric Hospital, where I worked a lot these days in France, I'm doing a project in a jail nearby Paris. I think what is interesting is that the fact that we are not doing a therapy, what a circus. It's fun. It's fun. And this is like really nice at the end when we get to do that, this exercise and actually not a lot of work, we can do really beautiful things. And on the way, going through group dynamics, getting with fear. So this is something that I feel circus can really bring to society and to everybody's life, even without being a circus artist or even without being just a public. You know, we all have a body. We all work with weights, we all work with different people. How does those things combined together that can make us have new experiences and what can it teach us on our life and makes us the possibility to act differently? With our bodies and with those subjects in our life. Finally.
Gabrielle [00:25:23] In Pli, you work with paper and you've talked about how the paper manipulates you as much as you manipulate it. And while working in duality with objects is common practice for circus artists, working with a material like paper is not. And can you expand on the process of creating with this material its dramaturgy and finding balance with it?
Inbal [00:25:43] Maybe I start and what I told you before, what what I mean, the fact that the paper manipulates me because we can imagine about like what is to manipulate a tool or apparatus in circus like balls, like clubs, like she will like even rope. But what it means is that the objects impact me and that I need to adapt myself to the objects. So this is what I told you before. That paper that we use in Pli. It is never the same from one performance to another. The paper on which I am climbing on. It's combined from many paper bands. It's very impacted, in fact, by many creatures like the humidity of the space because paper is like sponging humidity or having very dried space because of like the warming of the of the space. What is the height? So how much a place it takes in the air? How did it how did we build it on stage as we are building it on stage? Maybe one day we were a little bit stressed, so there was a little bit different how we arrange it on the space and so on. The paper is different from one performance to another, which must makes me very, very attentive and very in the in the constant listening to the paper because it's such a fragile and non evident material to go on because it can break. It's not that we found like an unbreakable paper and we're working with it now. We do break it and you know, I'm climbing and breaking it in the same time. So for having this balance between resistance and breaking and fragility, I must be in a very listening all the time and I need to adapt myself. If one place is already a little bit start breaking, I know I cannot hold it anymore. I need to find another place to put my weight or to go above. And I'm all the time in this reading of the situation and kind of improvising with some tools that I know, but kind of adapting myself all the time. And actually this is the paper that tells me, what can I do and what can I not do? So I need to listen. And and sometimes it's really like that for the sound because I felt like *rip* okay, here I can, okay, like, here I put weight, okay, I can go. This is something that not happened, like when I came back to work on the cotton rope. So, like, wow, it's so funny. It doesn't speaks to me. Like, how can I dialogue with. It's like, talk to me, Dude. It was weird? Like someone It's like it's a monologue and not the dialogue. And I go to used to this dialogue. This bring me some to to to some thoughts of the dramaturge artists in Europe in in Belgium that her name is Bauke Lievens. So she's talking about the way that we use objects and apparatus in the circus is very connected to the way that we use object in our occidental society. Like mostly we create objects to our service to make humans more powerful, more comfortable, more easy to make stuff like the objects are here for our service. And in a way, we we can see that many times. Also, when circus like I go on the rope for being in the air. What? What is more important? Me being on the air or the rope? You know, this is a little bit our relationship with this is quite sad, but with nature today, this in a very general way. The society we take, we use nature for our needs. We use trees for our to build. We use rocks to build our house. We use petrol to for our cars. We we have this thing of "how can I use it, how can it be for my use?" And this is kind of a very specific relationship between humans and our environment. And I feel with what we do with this work of paper that I cannot do whatever I want. If I will do whatever I want, I will, I will fall. This is the end of the game, you know? So if I want to be in this relationship, which is quite fragile, I must listen more than talk. I must ask the paper. Okay. What can I do today? I must said, "I think I would do that, oh, no, finally not. I do another thing." Finally. You know, the paper is also much bigger than me. With the lights, it's much more beautiful. It's have such a big place that I want to give him this place. I don't want to be. Hey, this is the paper. He is just here for me that I will climb. Now I want to resonate on this value and this this space. And to see that it is possible to create a new relationship, which is much more based on listening, about dialogue. I think this is, in a way, what I feel that we bring with Pli and the paper work.
Gabrielle [00:31:57] Absolutely. And I think there's a quote from your collaborator, Alexis Mérat, where she says, "The search for balance is the place where we examine our relationship to ourselves and the world," as I think that encapsulates a lot of what you've just spoken to. I'm so looking forward, so much looking forward to welcoming you and your team and Pli at the 2024 PuSh Festival February 2nd to 3rd at the Playhouse. It will be a beautiful space to to showcase and yeah really highlight this beautiful work. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
Inbal [00:32:33] Thank you, Gabrielle. I'm really up to that. So happy to come to Vancouver and to meet the local community and the circus community and the PuSh Festival.
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| 30 Nov 2023 | Ep. 7 - asses.masses: Theatre as a political practice | 00:36:50 | |
Milton Lim and Patrick Blankarn discuss the role of democracy in theatre. asses.masses runs Jan 20th-Feb 3rd at Push Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin discusses asses.masses with co-creators Patrick Blenkarn and Milton Lim. Their show, a performance that takes the form of a participatory video game. They talk about their collaboration, the democratization of theatre through participation, and how to make a theatre comfortable for 4+ hours. Gabrielle, Patrick and Milton tackle the following questions and more:
About Patrick Blenkarn and Milton Lim Patrick Blenkarn and Milton Lim are conceptual artists based in Vancouver, BC. Their collaborations include video games, participatory installations, and card games, exploring urgent questions around social value of art, digital labour, and the political and artistic potential of games. They’re also the co-founders of the national video archive of Canadian performance documentation, videocan. Land Acknowledgement Patrick joins the podcast from rural eastern Ontario (Wolf Lake), traditional Algonquin territory. Milton joins from Singapore, land of the indigenous Malay and Orang Laut communities. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin. PuSh's director of programming and today's episode highlights Gameful Performance. I'm speaking with Patrick Blankarn and Milton Lim, co-creators of asses.masses, which will be presented at PuSh Festival January 20th, 27th and February 3rd, 2024. asses.masses is a custom made video game designed to be played on stage by a live audience. Brave spectators take turns each night stepping forward from the herd to seize the means of production and become the player. Patrick and Milton are conceptual artists whose collaborations include video games, participatory installations and card games, exploring urgent questions around social value of art, digital labour and the political and artistic potential of games. I'm thrilled to share our chat on what 'democratic' means for theatre and more. Here is my conversation with Patrick and Milton.
Gabrielle [00:01:01] Just before we dive right into it, I want to acknowledge that I am joining this call from the ancestral Unceded territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), where it's my privilege to be living and working and having this conversation here today. And I will just invite you to share where you are joining me from.
Patrick [00:01:24] Oh, well, I will begin. I am in rural eastern Ontario, actually at my parents place, which is on Wolf Lake, which is historically, I believe, Algonquin territory.
Milton [00:01:36] And this is Milton speaking. I am currently joining from Singapore, which is the land of the indigenous Malay community. And if I was to be more specific, the Orang Laut community.
Gabrielle [00:01:46] So you're both working across performance and game design or in gameful performance and with themes of labour, economy and social capital. I'm wondering if you can talk about how asses.masses began. What came first, the desire to collaborate on a video game designed to be played on stage by a live audience over eight hours, or to create a performance about the perils of labour redundancy in a post industrial society?
Patrick [00:02:10] Yeah, that's interesting. You know, we've we've kind of explored this question in different ways over the last couple weeks as we've been on tour with asses.masses and you know, I was thinking about it as like sometimes I think we've said it's like a chicken egg thing of we were making games, but there is a bigger and longer history that maybe both of our practices sort of make it a kind of a logical conclusion to have ended up something like asses.masses. So I had been making, you know, performances that incorporated other forms of technology and media for, you know, probably almost eight years or six years before starting asses.masses. Like I was working with email, with phones, with like audio guides, with parades and things like that. So like, there was a long history of trying to create shows that didn't have actors but could be activated by the public. And there was a sort of lecture performance that I had sort of started called Donkey Skin in Vancouver at a event called Interplay, shout out to Diana Peters, that was sort of like looking at can video games be a part of performance in some way? And around that time I think actually we had already started another project by the time I was trying that out, which was called Culture Capital. And and that is a card game that is played on stage. And so they, they are there, I guess part of this, you know, not tradition, but like a lineage as we were potentially like exploring the potentials of creating something that audiences fill in, like the bulk of the labour. And I guess in that exploration there is a lot of conversation around, well, what does it mean to ask someone to do something for you in a theatrical context? Before we like go further is there like an alternative history that you sort of put in the background that leads, you know, the roads that all lead together to donkeys?
Milton [00:04:17] No, I wouldn't call it an alternative history as much as I would say it's our parallel histories of working on non-performer-structured performance. And on my side, I was working with Theatre Conspiracy on Foreign Radical a lot as I was coming out of school. And then of course, that show is cyber... Cyber security and surveillance with like 20 or 30 audience members going throughout a kind of space, that one does have performers in it. But we spent a lot of time thinking about game design and spatial design and voting with your feet. After that, I'd worked on more media pieces and so lots more kind of spectator driven spaces where there was no performer. Whether or not that was White Pages, which was about phonebooks, or if it was about okay.odd, which was much more structural films inside of a theatrical space. So in all those circumstances, I think you and I kind of found each other at kind of the right time to work on Culture Capital. And then the trading card game was for a while the thing that we kept working on. And then asses.masses quickly joined into those conversations, especially as we tried to more heavily consider videogames as the specific genre and not just games in general.
Patrick [00:05:39] Yeah, and I guess that comes out of I was an MFA student at SFU and at the tail end of my degree I was playing with imagery related to donkeys and labour. And I think the main thing I was thinking about was that we live in an era where someone might work a job all day and then they would go home and they would consume media that was, you know, in their pastime or leisure time. But certain video games that make, you know, are comprised of a lot of labour that you would put in and potentially you might even work the job that you work during the day in a virtual context when you got home as a way of playing. And so there was this tension and or relationship between why in some cases is this labour and why in some cases is this or what like, you know, sort of capitalised or exploited labour, exploited labour as opposed to play and sort of a release. That was a sort of an inception point and when we started to work on the show at the Shadbolt in Burnaby, the conversation just sort of, you know, built and built towards looking at our donkeys working, what kinds of jobs are they doing? And at some point we settled on the idea that, well, I think we could make a game that an audience would play. But it wasn't until many years, even years, I would say later that we realised were like, I bet we could make a game that was over seven hours. And you know, has this like epic narrative that draws on the histories of the games that really inspired us when we were younger. Roleplaying games like Final Fantasy and Zelda, Chrono Trigger and and other forms where like that we would start to really imagine, oh, this is this can be a lot bigger than what we initially had set out to explore.
Milton [00:07:26] As for many years, we actually toured around just like a 20 minute version of asses.masses and then eventually a 40 minute version. But it was only in the what is now episode one of the full game for, for quite a few years. And we toured around quite a bit. It was quite astounding to actually tour around an unfinished piece. And so now that it's done and again, we didn't actually know that it was going to be like 7.5 hours until an opportunity like a month out from the premiere like it was it was a kind of a late addition to that to actually test like, 'Oh, I think it's actually this long' because we thought it was going to be like 4 or 5 hours for the longest time.
Patrick [00:08:02] You know, to look back on why did we feel like we had to keep telling people that it was going to be a safe seven episodes or, you know, 4 to 5 hours? Because even at the time, as you know, as you're discovering how big you can make something. Testing the waters, testing the kind of walls of, you know, what can this be? You know, I think it still took us a period of time to, like, commit and say, well, actually, you know, this is a this kind of experience can work. It needs kind of certain kinds of support, you know, for anyone who's listening and going to come to see us as masses, there's food, there's like a bar. We have everything that we can give you so that you can be comfortable in a theatre for, you know, seven plus hours. But that's a learning, you know, we were learning about, Oh, right, How far can we actually go, “How, how big can we make it?” And as we started to tell a story that we started to get more and more excited about or engrossed by and characters that we came to love more and more, you know, there's sort of a logical unfolding that was required to to make it to the end of that story. And it just ended up being ten episodes plus an epilogue and all this sort of scaffolding that's that's needed.
Milton [00:09:10] So there are maybe two other things to mention about time. The first one is that at no point did we ever say like, it has to be this long. Like we want to have people sit there for 8.5 hours, like what ostensibly is a full workday. That was by happenstance. We're very happy for that fact. But it was as long as it needed to be to tell the story that we wanted to tell. And more than anything else, which is the second point, it was more fuelled by our inquiry into what kind of stories can we tell when we aren't limiting ourselves to like an hour or two hours maximum that you would traditionally have in like a Western or like maybe more Canadian theatre show? Because as we were travelling around doing Culture capital, we kept hearing from people like, Oh, X show is too long. Or it could have shaved five minutes off and there was this real attention to like, you can tell your story more economically. But we were also very conscious that like, Oh well, there are only certain kinds of stories that you can tell in that time span. And if you think about serialised media or if you think about other video games that take 60 hours, those stories couldn't possibly be told any shorter or they'd be fundamentally different stories or like just the notes. So that was one of our guiding questions. And in case you're worried, like, Oh, they're just doing it for 7.5 hours just to have the seven a half hour show. The case was actually that we put story first and we're quite proud of it.
Gabrielle [00:10:33] Yeah, no, this is perfect because it gets to a question that I was just thinking, which is what does that do? What does that duration do? How does it function? How does that form function with regards to the storytelling? And so yeah, Patrick, you create in the form of games, stage plays, books and visual art and Milton, your practice spans digital media, interactive and game design, acting, directing and dancing. And so how do you determine when the dramaturgy of a game will benefit the experience of delivery of the concept better than a text based play for the stage or a book, for example, and vice versa? And and then to add on to that question. And what does the that duration do? So what does the game form do? Yeah.
Patrick [00:11:18] There's a couple of ways of sort of breaking this down. Mm hmm. One way to say it, I think, is that every technology, every art form has its own kind of history and tradition and temporality by bringing a video game into a theatre, you invite certain behaviours, certain associations, certain flexibilities. Right? Like you could just stop playing and walk outside and get more food and come back in. The game's not going to sort of run on without you. Well, that fundamentally changes, you know, the the idea of how we're moving forward as a group because someone has to sort of give input in order to progress the story along. And I think in and I don't think that that's not unique to a video game right like that in our card game experiences as well and in the sort of tabletop role playing game that we've made with Laurel Greene, you know, all of these sort of forms, game forms. And it's not exclusive to game forms either, but like these particular game forms have this kind of flexibility. They have a permission to vocalise in the theatrical space. They have a permission to sort of negotiate power. They make a kind of flexibility possible. That is and time is just one element of that. It's actually also just how you see each other and the way you respect or listen to your fellow audience members. Milton, what else do you feel like it's made possible?
Milton [00:12:45] Yeah, and in order to zoom out, I'd say that both Patrick and I tend to create conceptually. And so when we think about our mode of interaction with any medium, whether or not they'll be books or dances or stage plays or anything else, we do try to ask the question like, could it have existed as anything else without depriving the very nature of the conversation? And so in our case, when we bring up video games, we invoke them not just in its form, but also in what what the thematic concepts are doing within the video game form itself. And so we could have made a play in other formats, but it would have been asking very different questions through its interaction with it and similar with like I think the most analogous version of some of the conversations we have is like a choose your own adventure book where you get to like the work is reading, but also the work is choosing what, what paths and what things you want. But it would have to be something read by a collective group of people, but that wouldn't put it into dialogue with 'Let's play' videos and the kind of contemporary spectatorship we have around video games and the interaction with people like actually behind you doing it at the same time. I feel like we have those social interactions kind of built in with a lot of video games, whereas we don't necessarily have it in the same way with books or other media as well. So the closest things that we're trying to put into parallel are theatre and video games at the same time. And both of those have that kind of spectatorship, both like kind of rubbing up against each other, but also in dialogue with one another.
Patrick [00:14:17] Then I think maybe one way to add is that, you know, theatre is a composite or like compound art form as in our video games. And you know, they're made up a bunch of other they're made up of a bunch of other art forms and, and the particular kind of, you know, when you put a videogame on stage, what that allows you to do is sort of highlight certain elements that it, you know, brings to the foreground based on its like the traditions of what have been made in sort of videogames, but also just the nature of questions on control, present questions around winning and losing, whether you can or cannot win all of those sort of themes become sort of material in the room. And I think that for, For us, that's you know, I think that's just like the that has to be the first step to any project at all actually is like, that the form is going to sort of tell you things about the themes that you're going to explore. Like rather than setting out and being like, I want to make something about Labour. You know, where can I get some something about labour? It's like, Hey, look, in this game, the idea of video games, what video games are doing right now, what they're inviting us to do and think about, happens to be about Labour. Like we should make a story about labour set inside of it. So that kind of folding back on itself is, you know, that that principle I think is at work in everything that we've made together. But it's also about like it's at work, at everything that we've ever made individually and in other groups, because I think that that's just what makes us the kinds of artists that we are.
Gabrielle [00:15:59] I want to talk a bit more about the themes now in asses.masses, the donkey or ass references humans now, as we are confronted with increasing numbers of unemployed manual labourers, capitalism, technology, techno phobia and workers rights. And Milton, you're a founding member of Synectic Assembly. Am I saying that correctly?
Milton [00:16:19] Mm hmm. That's right.
Gabrielle [00:16:21] Okay, an artificial intelligence focussed art collective. And I'm wondering how you're engaging with AI artistically with the ethical considerations illuminated by these current issues and these themes in asses.masses.
Milton [00:16:34] Mm hmm. I won't go too deep into some of the things outside of asses.masses for this, because I'll just tease perhaps the idea that I'm working on a theme park, a speculative theme park project with my friend Shawn Chua from Singapore. And one of the components is this AI based Fortune-teller who would guide us around the speculative theme park as well as help us create it using natural language processing. But in terms of asses.masses, clearly we're in the time of the the writers strike, which has just reached conclusion supposedly, and then the actors as well, and film and TV and as well as going into the video game industry. So it's very apropos to the conversations that we're having around technology, as you're saying, Gabrielle. And so for us, we didn't know all these things would be happening when we started working on asses.masses, but we could kind of see certain things coming down the way that they did based on the fact that Patrick and I have talked a lot about this, but there's a video by Jesse Show, video game developer in 2013 where he talks about things that he imagines for the future of video games and around the future of storytelling in particular. And one of the things that he proposes is that video games won't be taken seriously as an art form until they learn how to listen or respond with the idea that a lot of theatre can do drama really well because characters can die. But video games traditionally can't because characters are dying and retrying. And that's one of the main mechanics of a lot of games which we can talk about for asses.masses, we thought about that a lot and we worked in the dramaturgy that death actually means something in the game. And so in our cases, when we think about like computer systems that can learn and can listen from its participants, that is where the game industry is going. But that's also generally with technology writ large, that's kind of the direction that it is necessarily heading towards. And in built with that, our conversations where losing a job is very, very clear and that parallels the donkeys that we have in asses.masses that parallels traditionally people who felt like they were going to be put out of work when the printing press was going around. And any technology that has preceded digital technology as well. And so that fear of losing jobs and especially quickly, fear of technology, we've tried to build into specific characters that are in asses.masses that have to represent their their fears, where they're coming from, but also contend with people who are more optimistic, optimistic about where technology is going and how they should be used. So in terms of like how we're ethically dealing with some of these considerations, the AI that we're using in asses.masses Is not the same AI that people are very scared of, which probably also still doesn't exist yet. It is coming, but that AI that people think will be able to write scripts flawlessly, we'll be able to do all these things, is half the conversation. The other half is of course the very real considerations of like what are humans using AI for? Which are the real conversations happening around contractual and lawful kind of uses of AI? So yeah, we're not necessarily engaging with the specifics of the policies that are being put into place. That feels like it's an entirely different project. But yet for technology, more generally, we are engaged in that conversation. I don't know, Patrick, if you want to add to that.
Patrick [00:20:16] We learned how to program to make asses.masses, so it's entirely built by us and that includes, you know, a certain number of components that would categorise be categorised as AI. Enemy AI like what states do they move through? What's the sort of logical sequence of what to do based on a certain kind of stimulus or input? And what I was going to say was that what I think is interesting about something like asses.masses, which is it uses old aesthetics of video games and for the most part, you know, 70% of it or so. And that's very intentional to be able to have a conversation about what's going on now because the fear that we hear and sort of see disseminated or, you know, you might just hear of a certain generation around technology comes from an inability to see and or grasp what's going on. And I think that part of, one of the things that asses.masses is able to do is because in the same way that I think anyone who sort of champions telling a fable or telling a story about any kind as a way to sort of build a bridge, you know, mechanical things are far easier to understand than electro digital sort of compound things. Like if you see a refrigerator of a certain generation, you're like, okay, this is where it heats, this is where it cools. I can like, connect to these things. We don't live in a world where we can actually see how things are being produced. You know, our iPhones become these sort of like shut in black boxes without a certain very high degree of understanding or sort of technical know how. So what I'm just trying to say is that, you know, when we're trying to create a context to think about these things, it's important, I think, to have found a middle ground and to even use a character who's anachronistically positioned as the protagonist, as a conduit to try to understand what's going on. Because if we do, I mean, if we think about sci fi of a more traditional flavour, I'm sitting next to like a version of a copy of Neuromancer here, and you imagine these worlds like just how just how opaque those are and, and where a lot of our sort of fear comes from, I think comes from exactly that of not knowing what actually how it works. Because as soon as you understand how it works, it's actually a lot less scary. It's just like, okay, well, like that's how this experience is created. This is the decisions that are being made and I can intervene. I can fix a refrigerator, but I can't if I if I have no idea what the fuck is going on at any given moment.
Gabrielle [00:23:00] And clearly your work and your collaborations are, you know, are very original. And in terms of Canadian theatre or performance, very innovative in terms of, you know, the interdisciplinarity and experimentation with form. And Patrick, you also write on the politics of theatre, including the democratisation of theatre through participation. I'm wondering, would you say that there is an underlying call to action for the theatre community in your writing and theatre making?
Patrick [00:23:33] Yeah, I would hope that anyone actually who makes anything would believe that their work is some kind of call to action. But that's maybe a bit of like a maybe not everyone aspires to shit disturbery. But yeah, I think, you know, and I was thinking about this in a sort of broader context of what milton and my collaborations have become because we are also the co-founders of a national video archive for performance called VideoCan, Videocan.ca. You know, that comes out of the conversations that we were having with our as we were building Culture Capital, which were interviews with artists from across the country about, you know, what kind of values were ship shaping and shifting within their regional contexts, what kind of art was being deemed better or worse than others. And more broadly, I would say, my, ever since I was a theatre student or like a theatre history student back in my undergrad, I was displeased with the, what you could say, I guess was like a complacency towards what we could do in a theatre. And I went to school in Halifax. I went to school at the University of King's College. And, you know, that was a great space where a lot of young people had full 100% autonomy over a theatrical black box. We could do anything we wanted. And I saw my peers pitching to do, you know, well-made plays. And that's a very specific context to have sort of had your artistic, I guess, like teeth forged metal teeth, I guess. And but that that is I think, you know, I owe the that that time of my life in that place the the sort of you know my debts are to that time where I really started to try to figure out what this thing was that people kept calling theatre. They seemed to really like it. I didn't understand why I bet we could do other things in here. I bet I could, like, go longer or shorter or be louder, be more chaotic. That definitely translated into a whole era of writing, which I think I'm actually at the end of in some ways. You know, my undergraduate thesis was called To Have Done With The Image of Theatre, was very sort of like, 'let's try to have a conversation about what we think it is.' And even it was like in those years that I had started thinking about what VideoCan was to become, because it was the only way that I was able to participate in a greater conversation about what performance was right now was by watching video. And so when again, when Milton and I had met and a couple of years into our collaboration and we started talking about, you know, video documentation, how we shot it for our our own purposes, but also wouldn't it be great to be able to see stuff? We just decided, yeah, okay, well, we're going to do that because there's people out there who were like me who didn't grow up in a city like Vancouver that didn't have a PuSh Festival. And, well, I guess I grew up in Ottawa, but, you know, that was a different era. But that, you know, people in like other places that didn't have access to boundary pushing and innovative stuff all the time. So I think that, you know, all of it is really tied together. And I would hope that anyone who sees something like asses.masses, or anything else that's on VideoCan like is able to think of like, 'oh, right, so this is okay and this is okay and everything in between, and everything that's not represented here is possible within these, these, you know, these cubes that we build for the purposes of creating context for people to come together, to think things, think new things, remind themselves of things.' And a lot of, I guess the way that we've handled, I think, sort of sharing our ideas on that subject is that not and I often will write these dialogues for publication. It's one of the ways that we feel like, you know, yes, there's a call to action, but also our hope is always to model the possibilities of thinking about something differently. And I would say that something with the form like asses.masses or something like Culture Capital or Farce or anything else that we've made independently or together still participates in that idea of look at how this thing can also be involved. We can also include this form. We can include the people who love this form and all of the traditions that come with it, because that's the actual function of these places.
Milton [00:28:13] I would also add that in terms of process as well, like through any of the asses.masses master classes that we have, which we're very happy about the name, but also any particular moments in which we're allowed to share, like even in this conversation, our views or the process by which we've made asses.masses. Both Patrick and I feel very strongly coming from the vein of something like VideoCan, in sharing out the kind of research that we've done in the learning. So if you're listening and you want to know more about like, how do I create this within unity, how many YouTube videos did you have to watch in order to understand how to move characters around and to transition from scene to scene and to do shaders? So, so many. But we hopefully are trying to model a kind of process that can work. Not everyone will want to create a game of this size right away. You know, the doors are open for any of us to do this, and so it's not specialised knowledge that can't be attained by anyone. It truly has been made on the backs of YouTube creators who have afforded as generously as we are trying to do now, 'here's what I know and you can learn it.'
Patrick [00:29:21] Shout out to that 16 year old who made the platformer controller that we adapted. I mean, like, to be quite frank, the community that we were able to engage with by making a video game was far more supportive, responsive. And like in there in the ship with you than any community I've ever interacted with in the context of making live theatre. Right. You could go on to a forum and say, How do I do this? And someone would be there right away to tell you. That's just the nature of how that community operates. There's some other people in there, you know, who are less helpful. But for the most part, they're including that 16 year old kid. Very helpful.
Milton [00:30:02] Yeah. And maybe now's a good time to also say that. Patrick, you've also written recently about democracy and theatre in an upcoming issue of.
Patrick [00:30:12] Canadian Theatre Review. That's right. It's true. And I guess maybe we can well take a sort of short step over there because because I do think it is interesting. When Milton and I were in residence in Brazil in April, March-April 2023, after asses.masses had premiered, we'd had two residencies in one in Buenos Aires, one in sort of split between Recife and Sao Paulo. And we were asked or we were told by someone who was seeking to understand the kind of works that we were doing. They said, Oh, your work is very democratic and in in form. And I thought that was interesting, and I took the opportunity in for the CTR journal, that we were both invited to contribute writings to, to reflect on why, what it means to be called democratic in our art making like that. The experiences to this person, this this individual who is responding to an artist talk that we're given that that those works were democratic like to their core. And it made me wonder about all the other works that people make. And if you're not going to call them democratic, then what are we going to call them? Because it's true. We have to. I'm not. Yeah, that's a longer essay. And trying to figure out like, well, what do we mean by democratic and like does it come into being? Does democracy come into being when you come to asses.masses? Or is it sort of a, you know, suspended representation of democracy? I will let anybody who comes to asses.masses decide whether or not they experience democracy that night. Sometimes I think we see something that doesn't look a lot like democracy, but it definitely does look like a lot like the way that 20 year olds maybe think that politics should be run. And then, you know, it changes and it evolves over the course of the evening because there's a lot of energy maybe that comes in at one point or the food fuels you at after the second intermission and all kinds of things change. So all that's to say is that I think the way that we recognise or encourage us to think about how our art forms create real political spaces and interactions, you know, this broader has broader implications for that, for other art forms if we're going to give us Democratic as a title. Well, let's talk about all the other ways. Are they oligarchic? Are they fascistic, are they, you know, autocratic? And maybe that's maybe some of those forms, you know, maybe that's not a problem. Maybe we have to represent those types of experiences to be able to understand them so that when we engage them within a different political theatre, we we understand them and we know how to respond. And we are we are versed in in something. But yeah, I don't think asses.masses prescribes one particular form of political organisation and that's actually something that is very beautiful about the first scene for us every night when we get to watch the first scene of asses.masses, we learn a lot about how this particular random ragtag group of 100 people has decided to conduct themselves in space, at least a start.
Milton [00:33:18] And they continuously surprise us. We are always taking notes and just trying to better understand, like how are people responding to any part of the game? But based on that first like ten or so minutes and when we learn what kind of audience and what kind of community they will become, we can never prescribe exactly how it's going to shake down because it just keeps changing over and over and over again. So yeah, we remain curious about how things will unfold. Maybe I'll take this opportunity to also say as part of the same issue of CTR related back to the technology conversation, I've written a cowritten piece of writing with Bart Simon from Concordia University about quantification and participatory performance. And so talking about how we might engage with the world of quantification and by extension the world of technology that we hope we can run headfirst into it. And I feel like asses.masses is part of that conversation, yeah.
Patrick [00:34:18] The journal edition will be published by foldA of... foldA 2024 in June of next year.
Milton [00:34:25] Yeah. And in case anyone is listening about the conversation about like a democratic process inside of asses.masses, the show is really fun. We want people to know that we know that we can get very heady sometimes about it and just like talk about like a theory and practice. But it's also a really fun video game that we've made and we hope that lots of people will get to play it. And it's also a show that needs you. There are some performances that I've gone to where I realise I could have not been there and the show would have been exactly the same. asses.masses is not the same without you.
Gabrielle [00:34:57] And we're thrilled to have it at PuSh 2024, January 20th, 27th and February 3rd. So yeah, to those listeners, come see for yourself. Is it Democratic? Was four hours truly not long enough?
Patrick [00:35:13] It wasn't. It wasn't. If you leave in four hours, you'll have to trace down all of the people who stayed and figure out the ending. And you probably will not believe them when they tell you that that was the ending.
Gabrielle [00:35:26] An experience unlike any other in the festival. So I am super thrilled that this is going to be part of it. Obviously it's going to be a stand out experience. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Milton and Patrick.
Patrick [00:35:40] Thank you. Thank you so much.
Tricia [00:35:45] Thanks for listening to PuSh Play. My name is Tricia Knowles and I'm one of the producers of this podcast, along with Ben Charland. That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Patrick Blenkarn and Milton Lim, co-creators of asses.masses, which will be presented at the upcoming PuSh Festival. PuSh Play is supported by our Community Outreach Coordinator, Julian Legere, with original music from Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @PushFestival. On the next episode of PuSh Play:
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| 22 Nov 2024 | Ep. 39 - Stay with the Trouble (Transpofagic Manifesto) | 00:44:43 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Gabi Gonçalves, producer from Corpo Rastreado of Renata Carvalho’s piece, Transpofagic Manifesto, at the 2025 PuSh Festival, January 23 - February 9. Transpofagic Manifesto will be presented with Latincouver at the Waterfront Theatre on February 7 and 8. A special film marathon of Renata Carvalho’s work will also be shown at SFU during the Festival on February 9. To listen to an interview with Renata in Portuguese, please check out the Latinos en Canada podcast. Show Notes Gabrielle and Gabi discuss:
About Gabi Gonçalves Paulistana, articulator of the whole zorra for 14 years and our doctor in Communication and Semiotics (Communication and Cultural Production in Brazil - a study on the operators of helplessness and firefly artists - 2016), Gabi Gonçalves is one of the main responsible for this melting pot that is Corpo Rastreado. Working with production, in her opinion, is studying, researching and mainly a political act and a lot of courage, with a pinch of madness! For this premise, she brings in her experience the production in the biggest national and international festivals, knowledge in all the notices and forms of sponsorship (direct or not) as well as full experience in all areas of culture. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Gabi Gonçalves joined the conversation from São Paulo, Brazil, home to the Guarani, Guarani Mbya, Guarani Nhandeva, and Tupi-Guarani Indigenous peoples. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights building relational foundations and plants as inspiration for micropolitical actions.
I'm speaking with Gabby Gonzalez, the producer and longtime friend of Renata Carvalho, who is the artist behind Trans -Pothagic Manifesto. This work is being presented at the Push Festival, February 7th to 8th, 2025.
And on February 9th, we will also be presenting a marathon of Brazilian films starring Renata, including her own film, Body, It's Autobiography. Trans -Pothagic Manifesto is a courageous and thought -provoking work that challenges perceptions of gender non -conforming and trans -feminine people.
Through a radical expression of empowerment, Renata Carvalho subverts the obsessive scrutiny of trans bodies, distilling this gaze and transforming it into art, literature, and education. Gabby Gonzalez holds a PhD in Communication and Semiotics and is one of the main people responsible for the melting pot that is Corpo Hestriado.
Working with production in her opinion is studying, researching, and above all, a political act of great courage with a dash of madness. Here's my conversation with Gabby. So just before we get into speaking about your work with Corpo Hestriado and with Renata Carvalho, I just want to start by acknowledging the Indigenous lands that I'm on, that I'm on, stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples,
the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh, and as a settler here, I continue to educate myself and engage in thinking on what that means that looks like different things every day. today, today that looks like reflecting on indigenous futurisms, largely thanks to a podcast episode by Riley Esno called Land Back to the Future on CBC Gem.
And in it, she quotes Nehiya scholar Erika Violet Lee, talking about reconciling the apocalypse. And I found it really evocative with regard to the role of artists and the role of imagining futures as part of a decolonizing practice.
So she quotes this scholar in saying that the job of writers and artists is to be the mirror for the people That we build what could have been what should have been that we find the knowledge to recreate all that our world would have been if it wasn't for the interruption of colonization and Riley really underscores this word interruption and encourages us to consider colonization as not being permanent or inevitable.
And so those are the thoughts I'm sitting with today. As I join you in conversation Gabby and can you let us know where you are joining the call from. I'm here. Yeah, I'm here in Sao Paulo in the city of Sao Paulo the biggest city, the biggest city in Brazil, and here where I'm right now in Corpo has to add there was, there is a lot of rivers under the street.
These rivers are very important for us but now they are silent, you know, they are under the city, they cannot breathe. So, this for us it's very very bad for our city for for everything for all the, all the people, all the, all the humans are not humans that live here.
Thank you, this bridges into my first question because I want to talk about the work that you do, and the work that you have been doing for the last 14 years as a co founder of Corpo has to add oh, and you've been leading this organization which you've referred to as madness, at times.
Yes, for 14 years. And my interpretation from afar is that it is a network that breathes life you talked about these rivers being stifled being silenced, and that a lot of your work is about giving voice.
but I'd love you to tell me about how Corpora Castrellado came into existence and from your perspective, what it is that you do. Well, first of all, Corpora Castrellado has 18 years old, almost 19 years old.
You know, Gabi, I was a dancer. I come from the stage. And this is very important for my producer, work because I really understand all my job from the perspective of an artist, but I'm not an artist.
I'm a producer. This is very important to start. Well, I started so many years ago trying to understand how I can help the artists, how I can help the work of the artist. So many things happen and many, many ideas I could change because this is important as well with the time I could go deep inside of all my job, all the production perspective, the artist perspective, and understand when and where we connect and how we connect.
Well, so I start to understand that I could do a kind of job that I can keep myself together with the artist and I can keep working during the journey of the artist or I can keep with the artist during their lives because I believe on time, I believe that we need time, I believe on continuity and then I decide to build a kind of work that building continuity in this country that it's completely discontinued way of being.
Because of an instability and infrastructure funding these kinds of things. Yes, this kind of thing. So I try to find a way to keep all these people that work with me together every day, every year, day by day, doing and thinking about production in art and art of production.
So now a day what I believe that my work work, my producing work, is try to find the space, keep in movement, and find a context. This is the most important thing for me to build this organism. For me, it's a kind of life organism that needs things to be alive, so sometimes we are more healthy, sometimes we need to stay a little bit quiet because the movement, if we spend so many energy, everything is a metaphoric way to talk about this,
but we have to understand very strong to understand how we can move ourselves, how we can move our ideas, because it's a very political work, so we have to understand where we are, which context we are.
Nowadays, I'm not interested to talk anymore only about executive production and just to look to the artist and say, what do you need? What can I do for you? In this moment, I'm not interested in artists.
I work with artists, but I'm not interested only in artists, because I could realize that if I spend my time looking for the artist, I cannot move all around to do good. If I stay all my time looking for each artist, I cannot build something from the whole, all the artists, because what I believe right now is the production, it's a kind of floor.
I have to build a strong floor for the artist to stand, for me to stand for all the people that work on the artistic world. Our artistic place can be strong and keep doing their job, because what I'm interested in is to find a way to keep the people working, keep people, artists researching, and not only live by project.
because nowadays our problem is the projects. I don't like to use this word in a way, project, because it's something that's kind of beginning, middle and end, and we finish on this. And this is very, very hard for the artist because it's another way to be.
So when you talk about creating that floor, are you talking about building networks for presentation, international development in terms of, because you're not only producing, but you're also distributing or promoting the artist, supporting their onward touring.
Does it look like lobbying the government for more arts funding? Or what does that look like, that building the floor? This floor, first of all, for me, I always call myself as a producer. Sometimes I can be a creator, sometimes I can do programmation, sometimes I can distribute, sometimes I can be an agent, and sometimes I do an executive production.
But I prefer to call myself as a producer because I believe that this in producer, I can do all these things. And I think it's also a way to be more relevant for the producer, you know, because we never have space to talk, we never have space to create.
I believe that it's a very big space of creation, the production. And when I tell you about the floor, maybe a very good metaphor that I like to use, because all my knowledge and my thinking, it's about the vegetable philosophy.
I really love them, and I believe that it's a very good way to understand how we are living, how we are working. So I really like to think about the trees. The tree itself, maybe it could be the artist, and the roots.
Roots, yes, it's what I want to build, this place of the roots, because it's very important, and the tree cannot be so beautiful if there is no good roof, you know? And for the plants, there is no hierarchies, so it's important.
what is out and what is in, doesn't matter. And I like this metaphor of the roots because for me, it's a very strong and very smart way to be, you know? There is so many organisms together with the roots.
It's something amazing how they develop and it's a lot of intelligence that there is in this. So I normally, I think like this, this is a very important metaphor and an image for me. It sounds good. I don't know if it help you.
I don't know if you help you to understand what I'm talking about floor when I talk about this group. To me, I hear like the deeply relational approach you have. And the community building that much must be a very important part of what you do the support systems that you create for the artists and the interconnectivity.
The interconnection the relationships between all of the people that you're working with. That's how I interpret that. Yes, and there is and there is no one doesn't exist with the other. It's a part of the same organism.
And I'm really getting a sense it's wonderful to hear from you because I get a sense of your vision and how you've been able to hold this organization for 19 years. I am curious about what how you there must be so many artists that want to work with you.
So I'm curious, like, for you, what makes a corporal has to add to artists like how do you select the artists that you want to work with. Now I now a day I work with around 60 artists and from all around Brazil and you know, I don't select artists.
I'm not going to looking for artists. The artists come to me because I you know what I what I really believe that if I keep working every time. And, you know, nothing very big and huge with a lot of advertising.
No, I keep doing my work every day with these artists that it's bigger and the other it's smaller in the students that are beginning people that's just trying to to express themselves with something that I believe that's interesting.
So it's a lot of people, a lot of artists working with me, and you come to me and ask me to work with you. And then, and then you. tell about my work for another one that come to me and talk, you know, it's something very natural, it's something very normal that starts to happen with us, you know.
And then after my work with Renate, after I started to work with Renate 10 years ago, of course this changed a lot because changed myself completely. So I start to work with another artist and in the main thing I start to, I could understand how pretty it's my job, where I really can go with this, what I can exchange with people from this.
But there, of course, 10 years ago, I have no idea exactly all the things that happened with us, of course. And also now I have, we are now 26 people working here in Corpora Striado. So, for me, it's also very important to realize that our job is completely collective, completely.
It spends much more time, it spends much more energy, but all the time I'm doing this with them, you know. With all these producers and also all the artists, so this, and also I don't have a method to work.
I work with you in a way that I will find with you because your work is something very singular and so we need to work in this way. With Renata, it's completely different because she's completely different from you, she's interesting about other things.
And so this is the way that the art is coming, and coming, and coming, and coming. And I like to spend time with them. Renata, it's with 10 years, Leah Rodriguez, I'm living 10 years, and so many others, it's around at least 10, 8, 6 years that we are together.
And I want to talk more about your relationship with Renata, but first I want to circle back to something you said about the political aspect of your work and that being realized over the years. You've spoken about Corpora Striado's work as a political act of great courage.
wondering if you can just explain what you mean by that, a political act of great courage. Because when, with Hanata, for example, when we start the gospel according to Jesus, Queen of Heaven, and we did this performance, I decided to pay by myself this show, this production, because nobody wants to pay for this.
Could you explain why? Yeah, what that project was doing. Sure, it's very easy because Jesus never can look like a travesty, he can look like for everything, everyone, but travesty not. So this has become a big problem for us here in Brazil.
We have a lot of constellations in our, and censoring. ship a lot a lot of censorship in almost all the places that we went with the show we had very big problems with people in front of the the theater telling that we what we are doing against Jesus against the church of course but you know all these people that came and do and do this kind of manifestation they sure don't come inside the theater and see the show sure because if you go if you went there you will see that she's talking about love all the times she's talking about and how you can and how we can respect the others how we how you you make your your life better if you believe that Jesus is always talking about love and they never go against uh went against the travel transgenders and travis cheese and black people and all of love uh queer communities there is no even one word about this and so there i realized that my job it's completely uh political and then i decide to uh to be in touch more with uh the artist that is talking about something about uh all the black issues all the visual issues the uh trans issues and i work with these with um hey all the the this the questions of um and i don't know in english no but i will find,
I will find the world. But you know, it's, it's something that comes to me as well, because the artists understand that I am really interesting about these, not to be, to be famous and to have likes in the Instagram or all the these things.
But because we are really interesting about these because I really believe that this can move ourselves to other place can change our life completely, my and all the others that I'm working here. So these people changing another's and another's and another's and that and we are working on the we, you know, I like to stay with the trouble Gabby.
I really like stay with with the trouble. because I think it's this is the only way to to move the things you know and and with my job I could see that I can be on it and on this place moving the things changing and and with the artists all the time in partnership with the artists all the time in partnership with them this is a very important part of my job this is why I me and Renata for example we we change each other so much because we are always working and being together you know she in my opinion she always go forward of us you know she's all in front of us she's thinking in front of us so this helps me a lot to go you know and and it's very powerful for me to to be in touch with this kind of of artist and also this kind of person this human being incredible one yeah but yeah you've spoken about yeah thank you so much for sharing that and I think it ties in beautifully I have another question about that specifically looking at your relationship with Renata because you talk about it as or you talk about her as being like a sister and I want to just learn a little bit more about that first project you worked on so the god spell according to Jesus queen of heaven a piece that you produced in 2014 and this was an adaptation is my understanding and I'm just curious if you can talk a little bit more about what made you like how you met Renata what made And if you can share how you perceive that her career or her practices in artists has evolved since 2014.
Yeah, so Natalia Malo, it's a very good friend of mine and also a director, a theater director, and an artist, et cetera, that we call, so she went to Ejiburgu in French in 2014, or yes, 2014, and she saw Joe Clifford doing the gospel according Jesus, Queen of Heaven.
This, Joe Clifford was the writer and also the actress of this. text. She wrote this text after she did the transition of to be a transgender woman, because she was married with a woman that had a very big problem in his head.
It's a kind of and she died very quickly, something very strong to her. And then she decides to do something that she all the life wants to do it. And she did this after 50 years old, something like this.
And she was a person that used to go to the church. She really goes to the church. And then she had a lot of problems in the church after the transition. And of course, she realized that probably this is not a place for her anymore.
And then she decided to study about the Bible, about the text of Mateus, the text of Peugeot, all this, that these evangelicals, I don't know if it's right. And she in this research, she realized that there is not even one word against trans, against queer community, not even one word, nothing about this.
And then she wrote this text, and she decided to go by herself. And Natalia could see and ask her, please, can I translate to Portuguese and do this in Brazil? in Brazil, this will be a completely another thing.
And then Natalé did this translation and also we start to try to find an actress. And then a lot of artists send us a video telling a small part of the video in Facebook that time. And then she's for sure she's amazing.
And then yes, and then we went to the city of Renate. It was Santos, she used to live in Santos, very close to São Paulo city. And then we start to work, we try to apply for so many different funds. But of course, nobody wants to pay for it.
In the beginning, and then we decide to do by ourselves and I decide to do this production and it was the first time that I decided to pay for a production and I keep after this I keep doing this with so many different artists since right now since with Manifesto Nosporfaszka as well and we we did our this uh all these rehearsals and all this creation together me myself I was the assistant director because as I told you I come from the the stage and with Renata and Natalia we work one year because it was our money and so I don't have so a lot of money so I keep I keep doing this rehearsing and every every month and Renata was someone that in that time have a lot of difficulty with money a lot so she really needs this one to keep doing to keep working with us and all the things and then after one year we decide to to do the premiere and we did during I think two years and this show and we had a lot of problems with censorship and it was amazing because so many different festivals invite us to go and all of them have problems with the local politicals and the majors and the you know the institutions but after these I realized that people around from the festivals and from the institutions that invite us are very engaged with us only in that time that we are there.
They are engaged sometimes. You know, in the end, I'm not sure if people are engaged with us, with Hanata, with the question of that body or if they are engaged with them to be on the Instagram and all the, you know, having place, have light sometimes.
They are, you know, this movement, it's a very important move to them, loco. And for me, that's okay. But in the end, they believe that they did something. And we leave with the problem. Is there a commitment to actually be working?
engaged socially on addressing these issues in a long -term form. But during this time, many important things happened. For example, all the movements to say yes for a trans talent, say no for trans fake, and all these movements that Renata did, it was very important because the represent activity, it's very important and it's very quickly.
When we start to work on it, you start to move things very quickly because you you give light for something very important. These bodies have to be in all these places that they want to be. This is very important.
And then all these movements start with this process of the Jesus. Okay. And I know that also Transwafakic Manifesto has toured quite a bit internationally. It was nominated for an Audience Choice Award where I saw it at Zokritiatro Spectacle in Switzerland.
I would love to hear you speak more about what you think has led to Renata's international success, but also how to speak more about how her work is appreciated, received, interpreted in different places in the world.
You know, Gabi, I think our discussion here in Brazil, the discussion of about transgenders, about Black issues, all about the queers issues and also the original people issues. I believe in the case of queers, first, we are in front of all the countries that we used to go.
The questions, what we are asking about, what we are working on it, what we are fighting right now, I think in all the places that we went, we are in front of these, we are some steps in front, of course, because Brazil is the first place in the world that died trans people.
We have to move, you know, it's not because we are incredible. No, but we need to do this. We need to fight for this. We need to talk about this more and more and more. And transfer B, here, it's something that you go to the jail.
So, Renata, in all the countries that we went to now and so many cities inside of Brazil, she did manifest in so many places. She, people love the work because she brings these questions. She brings all these points and these very important political points to the stage and to the audience.
And say, let's talk about this very easily, you know, in a very good way. She's very funny. She has a lot of humor. So, this helps a lot. She's a very good actress. This helps a lot. So, she can work with so many different audiences that there is more trans people, only white people and heterosexual people, cisgender, you know, so many different audiences around the world.
And there is one very, I think, smart thing that when she, the first time it's with subtitles, normal show, okay, but the second part with another transgender person, that speak a very good Portuguese and a very good language, very good English, very good French, very good Italian, very good Germany, you know, the language of the place, the local language.
And this helps a lot because people become close of her as well. They can, you know, they can, because it's not easy when you come to show. I normally think, and I always tell to the artists that I used to work, that it's not all the performance, all the shows that are internationalization.
You know, you cannot go abroad with any kind of shows. It's something that you have to learn with time. It's something that you have to build. Sometimes you have a very nice show. talking about something very specific from the place doesn't make sense you know you are you're not going to connect it and this is something very important to to know and and manifest we think that we could change our possibility to be international when we realize what the big importance of translation you know how because this is about it's not about translation it's about communication i want to communicate myself with you if i don't have this perspective in my work it's not going to to happen you know and i think for so with this with this perception with this attention because it's something that you have you have to take care of your work and and with the audience if you don't take care with the audience i i don't understand why we're doing this connection you know yeah and it seems like it's been a beautiful trajectory that you've been on with ronada from having her be an actor in this first work uh gospel according to jesus queen of heaven um and then now with transphagic manifesto where it's really like she is communicating herself with the audience in this work um i'm really yeah i'm it seems like such a beautiful partnership and such a necessary partnership for the development of her work you know as much as you've spoken to how she's also contributed to how you're perceiving your work the impact of your work the way you're working in in financing projects yourself.
That's a huge investment commitment. It's really wonderful to hear about how you're working. Yeah, because, you know, Gabby, in the, in the world that we live right now, that innovation, it's a world that people love that all the the the the the funds and the projects has to have to be innovation and things highlight is the world's talking about how we are amazing, you know, how, how incredible how can be economic policies and the work of the,
the artists, I believe that we have to find another way to keep, you know, to keep doing our job. For example, I believe that the future of our work, it's completely handmade. It's completely handmade, you know, because it's, it's collective and handmade, because in some way, you know, we have to, to think how, how we can work the micropoliticals.
Because I believe that this is the only possibility for the futures. Micropoliticals also, because I believe that the plants all the time are doing micropoliticals. You believe that this one in my side, she's so beautiful, and she can keep alive without movement, without moving themselves, you know.
So this is, this is very beautiful. And I really believe that this is a possibility of example, good examples. You know, so I think it's in this way that I like to to be to to think, for me, production, it's a, I want to think about the language of the production.
How is the line because a dance theater have a lot of language, you know, all the time they are talking about the language, I want to talk about language of the production, I want to talk about the dramaturgy of the production, how we can build this in some way, you know.
We could keep talking. It's really fascinating. And it's so inspiring to hear you speak about your philosophy with regard to creative producing. artist accompaniment, political, social action, cultural mediation.
And I really appreciate that you also kind of made a full circle in the conversation, bringing us back to futurisms and the role of art and artists in that work. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you.
Thank you so much, Gabi. Thank you too, my dear. That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Gabi González from Corpo Hastriado, who is producing Renata Carvelo's piece Transpofagic Manifesto at the 2025 Push Festival, January 23 to February 9 in Vancouver, BC.
Transpofagic Manifesto runs at the Waterfront Theatre on February 7 and 8, while a special film marathon of Renata Carvelo's work will also be shown at SFU during Push on February 9. For more details on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup, visit pushfestival .ca.
Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charland. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
Coming up on the next Push Play. At a moment in the piece, I overcome the pain of the position. There's like a superpower coming from inside of me to the outside. | |||
| 11 Jan 2024 | Ep. 17 - NOMADA: art as ecological practice | 00:21:01 | |
Diana Lopez Soto discusses how ecology and land can connect to art. See NOMADA at the 2024 PuSh Festival from Feb 1-3. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin discusses the upcoming PuSh co-commission, NOMADA, with creator Diana Lopez Soto. Gabrielle and Diana discuss how aerial dance contributes to NOMADA’s dramaturgy, the research and development process behind this piece, how ecology and land can connect to art, and more, including:
About Diana Diana is an award-winning multidisciplinary Mexican/Canadian artist, mother and land caretaker. She has presented and exhibited her work nationally and internationally in France, Panama, Mexico, Costa Rica, the USA and Canada. She creates, co-creates and performs site-specific work, vertical dance, art installations and experimental film. Her interest in sustainable practices informs the direction of her collaborations and offerings. Some of her latest achievements are her participation at the Guapamacataro Art and Ecology residency, the Vancouver International Vertical Dance Summit and the ‘Ritual de las Aguadoras’ with the Tirindikua family from the Barrio de Santo Santiago Michoacan. Diana is the co-creator of Land Embodiment Lab with Coman Poon, an artist associate of Vanguardia Dance Projects and collaborates with Hercinia Arts, Femme du Feu, Look Up Theatre and Victoria Mata. Land Acknowledgement Diana joins the podcast from Peterborough, Ontario, in Treaty 20 territory: the traditional home of the Chippewa and Mississauga First Nations. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 28 Nov 2024 | Ep. 41 - Recovering the Pre-Colonial Past (History of Korean Western Theatre) | 00:30:21 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Jaha Koo, the artist behind The History of Korean Western Theatre, which will be presented at the 2025 PuSh Festival. The History of Korean Western Theatre will be produced by CAMPO at The Roundhouse on January 23 and 24, 2025. Show Notes Gabrielle and Jaha discuss:
About Jaha Koo Jaha Koo (he/him) is a South Korean theatre/performance maker, music composer and videographer. His artistic practice oscillates between multimedia and performance, encompassing his own music, video, text, and robotic objects. His most recent project, the Hamartia Trilogy, includes Lolling and Rolling (2015), Cuckoo (2017) and The History of Korean Western Theatre (2020). The trilogy represents a long-term exploration of the political landscape, colonial history and cultural identity of East Asia. Thematically, it focuses on structural issues in Korean society and how the inescapable past tragically affects our lives today. Currently, Koo is working on a new creation, Haribo Kimchi, scheduled to premiere in 2024. Koo majored in Theatre Studies (BFA, 2011) at Korea National University of Arts and earned a master's degree (MA, 2016) at DAS Theatre in Amsterdam. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Jaha joined the remote recording from Ghent, Belgium. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights multimedia practice and finding one's artistic authenticity in relation to the Western theater canon.
00:19 I'm speaking with Jiaha Koo, the artist behind the history of Korean Western theater, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 23rd to 24th, 2025. This visionary documentary theater performance examines how the suppression of culture under Western assimilation has shaped Korean theater and by extension the national identity of South Korea.
00:40 Through a patchwork of personal narratives and historical analysis, it offers a deeply authentic perspective on the past and defiantly imagines a future free from cultural erasure. Jiaha Koo is a South Korean theater performance maker, music composer, and videographer.
00:57 His artistic practice oscillates between multimedia and performance, encompassing his own music, video, text, and robotic objects. Here is my conversation with Jiaha. In 2025, this will be the third time that you're going to come with your work to Vancouver.
01:15 The first time was with Kukwoo in 2020 and then Lalling and Rolling in 2023 and now 2025, the history of Korean Western theater. So it's just a really nice evolution for us to follow the evolution of your practice and just be in relationship with you and the themes that you're working with.
01:38 I'm very honored to present my Trilog works, Everything in Vancouver. So I'm very excited to meet audience to share my last piece of the Trilog, yes. And we're speaking about Vancouver and Vancouver is how this place is colonially known, but it is the stolen traditional and ancestral.
02:00 territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh, and I'm a settler here, and part of my responsibility is ongoing learning about the colonial past and participating in a reclaiming of history and imagining of possible decolonial futures.
02:21 Today I'm really inspired by a podcast which is more like an intersection between documentary theater and a weaving of critical fabulation and historical documentation, a podcast called Marguerite La Traversé by Emily Monet, who was here at Porsche in 2023 with her work Oakenham.
02:48 And listening to this project has been very educational for me. It centers around Marguerite Du Plessy, an indigenous woman who was also a slave in the 1700s in Quebec. And this woman is the first enslaved person who took recourse to the justice system to have her freedom recognized in 1740.
03:08 And it's been really eye opening to realize the history, you know, in the 1700s at 90% of the slave population were indigenous people. And the other thing that's been critical fabulation, the need to the role of drama and imagining history as part of reclaiming the forgotten and erased histories of the past.
03:46 So for our listeners, I encourage you to check that out. And today, Zaha, where are you joining the conversation from? Now, I'm currently in Ghent, in Belgium, in the studio of Kampo, where I'm working with the last five years, I'm associate artist of Kampo, the production house in Ghent.
04:11 Yes. And this now is Friday evening, but I'm still in the studio. Yeah. Well, let's talk about what your work is in the studio or what you've been working on. So the history of Korean Western theater is the final part of your Hamartia trilogy.
04:28 And this word means tragic error in Greek. Why tragic error as a title for the trilogy and what makes these works a trilogy? I think this is really nice question to open up our conversation because it's really ironic and paradox why I made Hamartia trilogy as my title.
04:51 Actually, this is really related to the last piece, the history of Korean Western theater. Actually, I made the concept and plan of this trajectory in 2014. At the time, I already made the idea about rolling and rolling, and cuckoo, and the history of Korean music theater.
05:15 And this project was about imperialism and colonialism, and how to reflect the past, the tragic past, and for the future, actually. Because actually, we don't know what kind of tragic past are staying with in our life, but actually, there are many things, many layers, and then this kind of tragic trap is still going on with us.
05:45 So that was a really big inspiration for me. the history of Korean Western theater, actually the motivation is very important to talk about why I made the Hamartia trilogy. In 2008, you know, I was a student studying theater studies in the university and by extent I went to want a big celebration in the theater in Seoul, South Korea.
06:15 Then they were really excited and then I was curious what kind of event and it was 100th anniversary of Korean theater. Wow, 100 years. And then suddenly I made a question myself, which country or which culture can count the age of theater history?
06:40 That's really strange because we learned that theater history started already before, you know, like more than southern or 2000, we never knew. But they are counting the history like, yes, 100 years anniversary.
06:56 That's really strange. And then I tried to research and then think about what's the starting point. Actually it was 100th anniversary of Western style theater in Korea. So it means that their theater is based on Western theater.
07:15 So it's really separated from Korean traditional theater or Korean folk theater. And modernization was a kind of foundation, kind of like barometer. We have to throw away our past and then we have to make a new feature based on Western canon.
07:37 That was the mentality of the modernization. I think there is no autonomous modernization in the concept. So that was motivation for me about the history of Korean theater. And why? You know, I wanted to talk about my theater, my route, but and I realized that I don't have my authentic knowledge, and my tone, and my, how can I say, my route.
08:11 So everything that I what I learned, actually, it's from Western theater. So there was no time to identify myself, culturally. So conceptually, at the same time, part of schooling, I wanted to bring Amartya from artists to tourist weddings, because that was only one term that I learned.
08:40 So you're talking about, you know, the history of Korean Western theater, examining the history of theater. history of colonization and Western influences. You moved to Amsterdam in 2011. You did a master's at Daz Arts in Amsterdam and then moved to Belgium in 2016.
09:05 So as you've referenced a lot of your, and before that, as you've just said, like a lot of your theater education was based in a Western tradition. I'm curious if you could speak, I would love to hear you speak more about how you, what Western influences you perceive on your work and Eastern influences, or just to kind of talk about those aesthetic, the ways that those aesthetics complement each other or maybe come into tension in your practice or in your context.
09:42 When I look back, when I was living in South Korea in 2010, the Korean theater scene was very conservative and very hierarchical structure. In that structure, I found that it's not easy to make artistic growth myself because the structure forced younger generation to follow their Western canon in a different way because I have to talk about the Western canon.
10:21 Actually, it was interpreted by Japanese people during Japanese colonial period. So it's kind of like monster Western canon. It's not authentic Western canon. So in this sense, the conservative scene always divided like theater, dance, and multidisciplinary performance and visual art performance.
10:48 So there was no synergy to each other. There was no kind of good reaction or feel like each other. I wanted to escape and avoid it from this structure. And then I wanted to figure out what I want in my artistic practice.
11:07 Fortunately, at that time, performance works that I was inspired and I like. Actually, it was from Belgium and Germany, actually. This is really funny because I was thinking about what is our own theater.
11:25 But at the same time, I like and I'm inspired from European theater. But there was something different because what is contemporary. I was inspired by the meaning of contemporary. And then I found maybe I can establish what I want.
11:45 want what I wish in my artistic practice. That's why that was the reason I decided to leave. Of course, in European theater, after that I learned that in European theater also really divided like a classical theater and contemporary theater.
12:01 But somehow one is really important is that the diversity and international experiences and then different cultural moments that I really appreciate. It's really different from Korean theater because there is a North Korea, so geographically it's a part of the continent, but politically it's an island, so it's really isolated politically.
12:35 In this sense, there was kind of artistic liberation myself. That was the 13th point. As you mentioned, in 2011 I moved to Europe and I studied my master's program in Amsterdam from 2012 and then I moved to Belgium from the Netherlands in 2016.
12:59 In that period, I got a big question myself. I have to admit that my artistic background and my artistic practice are rooted based on European theater. I think this is the reality that I had already from South Korea when I was a student.
13:26 So in this sense, when I decided to make the history of Korean Western theater, it was a big issue for myself. How to figure out and how to develop further based on my own authenticity. Honestly, I don't know yet, but every different project I try to develop further, I think in that sense, the history of Korean Western theater is kind of like a hunting point for me to think about the future, what is autonomous modernization or artistic practice.
14:09 So in my artist practice, how to develop my own aesthetic quality and how to make the new contemporary Korean artistic aesthetics, for example, even though I live in Europe. I think this is a great moment to talk a little bit more about how you see your practice as having evolved from lolling and rolling to the history of Korean Western theater across this 10 years.
14:43 Or I guess it was eight years by the time, yeah, that last work premiered. Audience, audience members, maybe someone already saw my previous work, like Lo Ling and Lo Ling and Cuckoo. Maybe they already recognize who I am as an artist, maybe.
15:01 Basically, I'm a theater maker, but also I'm a composer, music composer and video artist. So always multi -media elements are important and I believe that music and video are my performers and my artistic languages.
15:23 So always how to organize the musicality and then how to make multi -sensure drama thirds and structure in my performance, they are really important. So from Lo Ling and Lo Ling, I already tried to organize my video work as a performance language.
15:44 In the meantime, my own music can talk about so many subjects itself. After that, I want you to go further with my multidisciplinary elements and then I start you to develop my robot performers. And of course, rice cookers perform in cuckoo.
16:05 And actually, the one of rice cooker will come back to Vancouver with the history of Korean written theater. Of course, in the performance, there is also new robot performer. The important is about, I already mentioned about future, but in the practice, in the project, Lo Ling and Lo Ling and Cuckoo, they are mainly focusing on the past.
16:33 So what was tragic past and what kind of effect, what kind of tragic effect on our lives today? But the history of Koreanness and theater doesn't stop at present. So it goes further to the future. And then how to reverse our future and how to unfold and fold a new feature.
16:58 That is an artistic question, actually. So in the sense, I try to bring Korean folk theater and dance into my music and video work at the same time, even though I'm not dancer, but I try to practice on the stage my own choreography.
17:16 And then furthermore, there is a new character that I mentioned, the robot character. Actually, it's my son. My son was born during the creation of the history of Koreanness and theater. And then I tried to imagine the future together.
17:35 How can I say? It can be a little bit kitschy and a little bit cute way, but somehow that was a reality because, you know, I became father during the creation of the Hamatiya trilogy. And then it gave me many different layers and it gave me many different realities.
18:02 So I couldn't have to think about my chart and then future generation as well. So in the sense, the history of Korean S &P author is a perfectly, I would say it's a final piece of the Hamatiya trilogy to close, to wrap up the trajectory.
18:22 And now that you've completed the trilogy, will you continue to work with the self -solo form? I mean, I reference these pieces as solos, but as you've just said, you have other characters on stage, robotic characters, rice cookers, et cetera.
18:41 I'm just curious what kind of creative risks you are embracing. You just premiered a new work since this trilogy. So yeah, can you tell us about your current experimentations with form or thematics, et cetera?
18:59 Oh, you mean the related to my new performances, the new work together? Yeah, I guess the question is what's next for you now that this trilogy that you've been working on for so long has completed, what's next for you artistically?
19:14 Hamatiya trilogy is my first chapter in my artistic career. And to see the second chapter, the first chapter is really important, of course. So in the first chapter, the Hamatiya trilogy is like autobiography storytelling.
19:38 and sometimes lecture performance, sometimes documentary performance, documentary theater. So every time in a different way, I try to develop a little bit further. And one day I realized Matia too large is completely about myself.
19:58 And then if I'm not in the topic or I'm not in the work, then what kind of challenge happened? I thought this is quite crucial and important and relevant question for me as an artist. So recently I made Playboo Kimchi.
20:24 It's about food and it's about diasporic status who lives outside of the hometown. So in this sense, I want you to develop. how to organize narrative in the performance. And for example, the Hamatea theology is more like the documentary stories, but Haribo kimchi is more like fictional, but plus personal stories, it's kind of like mixture.
20:54 So I try to make a distance between my work and my self and then in between the distance, I think my musicality and my video work and my installation work, my cinematography and my robot performance can do many things.
21:13 In the sense that my work can transform into another way, I think. So kind of like in the middle of the transition. So after Haribo kimchi, I want to try next work and not on the stage, for example. And then if I'm not in the performance, what kind of artistic urgency?
21:41 And your work has toured extensively internationally. What would you say are the differences between audiences, connections, or responses to your work in East Asia or elsewhere? Amartya Tillers, yes, he was shown in a different continent and different cities.
22:05 Luckily, I'm so appreciative of opportunities because I was able to see many different audiences and then they gave me many different reactions. In European countries, there are also similar experiences like East Asia economic crisis.
22:26 It was also happened during like 2008, around 2008 in Greece or Spain or Italy. So we were able to share a common feeling and experiences and a harsh time, so the emotional engagement was totally different, so the kind of reaction was also really different in European countries.
22:57 Sometimes, you know, some countries, I feel like, wow, in East Asia, you had a hard time. Sometimes, you know, in this kind of conversation, I can feel also this connection, because audience can think this is really far story, you know, it's not our story, it's your story, something like that.
23:23 But mostly, international audience gave me intimacy and engagement to share their experience. So even though I'm talking about Korean history and political matters, every country, they have their own stories and their background and their problems.
23:46 So even though I'm talking about Korean stories, it automatically transforms into the local stories that I was really surprised from their reaction. On the other hand, when I perform in Asia, it's quite different because like Kuku or the history of Korean theater, this kind of work, you know, they have different understanding depending on the political landscape.
24:20 So different perspective can be shared. For example, different interpretations about Japanese colonialism between Taiwan and Korea also. Of course, I respect their opinion and their decision, but somehow it was quite different interpretation I found.
24:42 So it was also a fruitful experience for me to see the different dimensions of perception. In Taiwan specifically was your last reference, one last thing. Last year, I performed Amatya trilogy in Seoul altogether.
25:01 I was quite surprised from the reaction because, you know, the history of Korean based theater, it's still going on in their history and in their art scene and in their society. So I was able to feel their anger, but at the same time, some conservative audiences, they were really angry, for example.
25:37 After the show, some people sent me a message via Instagram, we never give the right to talk about Korean theater at the outside of South Korea. At the time I was hurt and I was sad, you know, I left 10 years ago, more than 10 years ago, this colonial remnant is still going on in our contemporary society.
26:06 Last 13 years, my cultural identity is also getting changed. When I go to South Korea, they treat me as the Korean who live outside, so it's kind of like a stranger. But in European society, I'm still South Korean, I'm not a European, so I'm still living kind of like in between culture.
26:34 films. So in this sense, my perspective is losing the power as a Korean. That is quite sad. Somehow as a person who can see the society with distance as a start viewpoint, the history of the history of Korean medicine theater is still very valid in Korean theater scene that I was able to observe and to see the society last year.
27:14 Yeah, the themes of your work are so relevant here, as in many places of the world, as you know, you're talking about, or the work is addressing themes of imperialism and colonization with walling and rolling, specifically language imperialism, with the cultural genocide that took place here and continues in many ways.
27:38 It's very relevant. It's always interesting to identify parallels with other places in the world. There's so much knowledge of specific Asian history, I feel here, that having this kind of opportunity to connect through you and your story and your perspective.
28:03 I think it's also really beautiful how you do with each work, weave in the personal in a way that makes it very, very emotionally touching, very concrete, and very accessible. I am thrilled. Thank you so much.
28:19 Thank you for this conversation. Thank you for coming back to Push. I so look forward to welcoming this piece. Actually, this was the first, the history of Korean Western theater was the first piece of yours that I saw, so it was my introduction.
28:34 to your work because Cuckoo was presented at Push Before My Time and then we brought Lalling and Rolling which was the first piece in the trilogy in 2023 so it's yeah I'm just very excited for our audiences to get to this to experience this this part and the and for those lucky audience members who will have experienced all three over the the last four or five years that's just awesome so thank you again for your time.
29:01 Thank you very much I'm so honored and I'm so excited to meet first of all audience talking and then I'm so happy I can share like fully know completely all trilogy in Vancouver. Thanks a lot. That was Jaha Koo, the artist behind the history of Korean Western Theatre with Gabriel Martin.
29:26 Jaha's new piece will be presented during the 2025 Push Festival, January 23rd to February 9th in Vancouver, B .C. The history of Korean Western Theatre will be produced by Campo at the Roundhouse on January 23rd and 24th.
29:41 It's the third in his trilogy of shows that has been produced at Push, so for fans of Koo Koo and Lulling and Rolling, you don't want to miss this one. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Trisha Knowles.
29:54 I'm one of the producers of this podcast along with the lovely button, Charlynd. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
30:07 Coming up on the next Push Play. So it all started with fairy lights from Dolorama, cooking paper and origami as a pair of pantyhose. So it's just like to bring it down to earth.
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| 12 Dec 2024 | Ep. 45 - Cultivating Disorientation (All That Remains) | 00:43:58 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Mirko Guio, whose work, All That Remains, will be presented at the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. You can catch All That Remains on January 23 and 24 at SFU Goldcorp Centre for the Arts. Show Notes Gabrielle and Mirko discuss:
About Mirko Guido Mirko Guido (b. Italy) works with dance and choreography between theatres, art galleries/museums, and public spaces - spanning over performances, installations, intra-disciplinary research projects, and publications. All works are a continual negotiation of boundaries — between body, space and materialities, between individual and collective experience, between certainty and ambiguity. Each project operates as a physical, material and intellectual inquiry into choreography as a system of responsiveness, guiding the attention towards the co-existence of multiple processes and materialities. As a dancer he worked in several dance companies, including the Cullberg Ballet, and with a great variety of choreographers, whom have provided him with a wide range of embodied perspectives on dance, from Mats Ek, Crystal Pite, Johan Inger to Deborah Hay, Benoît Lachambre, Cristina Caprioli and Tilman O’Donnel, passing by Paul Lighgoot & Sol Leon, Itzik Galili, Alexander Ekman, Rafael Bonachela, Jo Strømgren, Stephan Thoss among many others. As a choreographer Mirko he has toured his productions across Europe, including Athens dance festival (Greece), Festival La Becquée (France), Festival MAP/P E-motional (Portugal), Teatri di vita (Italy), Dance Station (Serbia), Weld and Dansens Hus (Sweden), Bora Bora and ARoS Art Museum (Denmark), SPEL - The State Gallery of Contemporary Art, Nicosia (Cyprus) among many others. His artistic processes have been supported by major choreographic centres such as Summer Studios Rosas, Work Space Brussels; Uferstudios Berlin; PACT Zollverein; MDT Stockholm to mention but a few. Mirko holds a master’s degree in New Performative Practices from DOCH / Stockholm University of the Arts, and today he’s based in Aarhus, Denmark, and is an in-house artist at Bora Bora – Dance and Visual Theater. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Mirko joins the conversation from Denmark. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's director of programming, and today's episode highlights spaces of liminality and devising systems of responsiveness.
00:18 I'm speaking with Mirko Guido, artist behind All That Remains, which is being presented at the Push Festival, January 23rd and 24th, 2025. This choreographic work unfolds across a stage scattered with industrial debris and organic matter, where performers engage with their sculptural surroundings in a corporeal topography that collapses the boundary between inner landscapes and external realities.
00:43 A richly textured work at the crossroads of dance, installation, and sound performance, this piece asks us how we, as a species fallen out of sync with our environment, can open up new potentialities of relation and becoming.
01:00 Mirko Guido is an in-house artist at Bora Bora Dance and Visual Theatre. He holds a master's degree in new performative practices from DOC, Stockholm University of the Arts, and is a former dancer with the Kalberg Ballet.
01:14 Mirko Guido's distinctive choreographic lens, shaped by a diverse history of working in theatres, galleries, and public spaces, brings to the fore a dynamic engagement with today's anthropocentric existential dilemmas.
01:27 Here's my conversation with Mirko. Just before we hit record, we were acknowledging that it's so easy to get caught up in discussions around all the logistical pieces, so it's nice to actually, in the lead-up to the festival, sit down and really get to talk about the work itself and your practice, which is a real treat for me, and I know it's a treat for our listeners as well.
01:50 I really appreciate it, because I think, as you were saying, we get so sometimes overwhelmed by the practicalities, and that you... and their organization of making this happen. So to give space and time for us to connect on another level and talk about the practices and the work and also give the possibility to people to have another entry to the work.
02:19 I think it's a great initiative. So thank you. Thank you. And we're going to get right into it shortly. I do want to acknowledge that I am in this conversation today on the stolen traditional and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples.
02:34 So these are the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh. I am a settler on these lands, and part of my responsibility as a settler is ongoing thinking about the implications of that. And those who've been listening to this podcast series will have heard me reference the Yellowhead Institute, which is an incredible resource for thinking indigenous perspective on policy and perspectives on policy that are affecting indigenous peoples today.
03:05 And they have a wonderful online course around Land Back and their red paper on the Land Back movement. And I think it's really important that just to talk about the roots of the Land Back movement, and this is something I'm educating myself on right now, and just really being clear that despite reconciliation rhetoric of contemporary politicians that Canada is still a colonial country.
03:34 And that over the years through policy, law, and interpretation, indigenous people and their authority have been attacked by land tenure and economic systems meant to benefit non-indigenous Canadians.
03:49 And each time indigenous people challenge the state of affairs, for example, with land defense actions, they are met with violence and criminalization in the name of public interest. And so I think that I'm just really appreciating the clarity with which this is articulated in the Yellowhead Institute's red paper.
04:13 Mirko, where are you joining the conversation from today? I am calling from, or I'm in this call from Denmark, which is in Europe, in the Scandinavian region. And I live here, I've been living here for the past three and a half years, more or less.
04:34 And Denmark is a land that has been mostly inhabited by various Germanic peoples since the ancient times. But I... I am Italian, before living in Denmark, I was living in Sweden for many years and also in Germany and Switzerland.
04:59 And yeah, but specifically I come from Lechke and I actually think, which is a small town in the South of Italy. I don't know if you see the boot Italy that looks like a boot then at the end of the hill in the South part facing, facing the East towards Greece, basically.
05:24 There is this small town called Lechke, which is in ancient times was called Terra d'Otranto or Salento, Salento or Terra d'Otranto. And so from that perspective, I'm actually, I'm routed to Mesape, which is the...
05:44 the first people, let's say, from the Terra d'Otranto and Salento. But I also have to acknowledge that we're also inextricably rooted to Greeks and Byzantines and many other populations that have passed by the Salento over the centuries.
06:11 And this is quite striking because it's something that you can notice in the language, in the culture, in the crafts, and even in the people's feature. So from that perspective, it's a very rich and diverse land.
06:30 And I wanted to acknowledge, because I was thinking about this, that among the various populations that have passed by, there are also the Normans, which the Normans were intermingling between Norse Viking settlers and locals from West France.
06:50 And so perhaps there is an older connection that runs through me with Scandinavia. And also, as you can see, people cannot see it, but you can see that I have red hair, which is not exactly a typical hair color in the Mediterranean area.
07:14 So yeah. So this is some funny anecdotes also that I'm sharing with you now. Yeah, thank you. I think it's always fascinating to think about the layered history of peoples. I mean, unfortunately, often in the context of conquest, sometimes just in trade.
07:37 But this is like the layers of cultural exchange and then sometimes cultural exchange. domination but like just how layered that history is in any one place if we go far enough back in time and in some places in the world more than others in terms of the different types of peoples who've come and settled over generations.
08:01 Thanks so much for sharing that. We're going to talk about all that remains. So you've described all that remains as not just a performance but an urgent call to consciousness. Can you elaborate on that?
08:14 Yeah, thank you. Well, we live in times in which the conditions around ourselves, environmental conditions, social and political conditions are changing very drastically and also at a very fast speed.
08:44 So I think we just need to pay attention. That's my idea, that's my thought. We need to pay attention to the changes that are happening and not only an attention towards that, but also an acknowledgement and awareness that we live in a mutual affect with our surrounding.
09:14 And these ideas of attention and presence and the knowledge in this mutual affect is exactly the principles upon which all the tremendous is built in the way that the performers work with their bodies in relation to the sculptures, in relation to sound, in relation to the lights and how they attend the moment and the present moment and how they are in the space of listening and fluctuating between how their internal landscapes and external realities,
10:01 they co-form one another. And in a way, I would say that that's also what the performance, what all that remains wants to do towards the public, towards the audience. It is asking also for the public to be present and to pay attention and to, not only to what's happening on stage, but also how that affects their internal, emotional and physical responses.
10:38 Yeah, you've spoken about your work being in dynamic engagement with today's Anthropocentre. existential dilemmas and I really feel that that's the call of this work for me how it speaks to this kind of anxiousness or tension you know you spoke about the wider context of the global upheavals that we're experiencing but this is through the body the fact that it's it speaks to this without words and so while there are bodies humans on stage as the main actors the fact that they're expressing in a way that feels very unmediated and for me interpreting the work so not heavily informed by a specific dance technique you know for my eye anyways that they're in relation to their environment in a way that kind of brings them into a more like animalistic context or like de-centering or the ways that humans have existed in nature that have created the Anthropocene as we know it feels like it is deconstructed in some way on stage.
11:49 So I'm really curious how you talk about the internal realities of the artist on stage, the bodies in conversation with the external environment. Can you talk a little bit about the devising process?
12:05 How do you get to that place with the artist? What was the creative process like when exploring that? There was a moment in the process when we started to work with all those objects and we had even more objects that we spent with the performers.
12:23 We spent a lot of time. So we were working on a very long open scores, we will call them, in which we would have some basic principles that were crucial for our research. But we would not know how we would structure the time and the events, we were calling them events inside of that score.
12:52 So basically what I'm talking about is that we would do like a two, two and a half hours open score in which we would work with some themes and some principles of relation with the objects, relation with the space, relation with one another.
13:08 And that formed very much for us a particular experience of time and a particular sensitivity to expectations of resisting the desire for certainty and for immediately producing a form and resolving something and rather stayed more into a state of...
13:44 of sensitive listening that is not only perceptual or somatic, it's also material, it's special, it has many, many layers. And that process formed very much a particular tone and attitude in the work.
14:06 So it wasn't pre-decided how we were going to, let's say, how we were going to look and how we were going to move, right? It emerged throughout this experience of staying in the space with those objects for a long time and then, of course, being driven by some themes and some choreographic ideas that we had, such as that of creating sanctuaries or diving in pooling into our internal landscapes, almost creating a small ritual of reconnecting with our ancestral forces,
14:49 and then bringing those forces back in the space, right? But we were doing this for like a space of two, two and a half hours without exactly knowing where something was gonna happen. And that was the devising process.
15:07 And then later on, then we started to have to make decisions because we had to bring it on stage within a certain amount of time and so forth. But that experience, I think it's very crucial for how the work came into being.
15:27 And I would like to add something important about this space of waiting and staying with the moment and staying with the listening. Because at that time, I had come across a fantastic lecture by Joakim Olafeh.
15:51 And he's a philosopher, a writer and activist. Yes, big inspiration. And actually, I'll just pipe in that last year, it was on one of our artists, Cherish Menza, who introduced and actually mentioned him on this podcast and introduced us to his work.
16:08 Yeah, amazing. It was a fantastic lecture, very inspiring. And like it really like it's not just inspiring, it really moved something for us in the work. Like it became a crux that turned and redirected many of our intentions.
16:25 And the lecture, I want to read the title because the title, I think it's beautiful in itself and is the spirituality of cracks and the gift of failure at world endings. And And in this lecture he proposes a notion of the wound not as something that is to be immediately repaired so that we can go back to what it was, right?
16:52 So that we can ignore that something drastic has happened, something violent in some way for the body, for the flesh has happened, right? And then we just close it and go back and we repair it. But in that moment he proposes the idea of the wound rather as a phenomenon that is trying to make us notice that something is not functioning.
17:19 And so perhaps we need to linger in there. We need to wait a little bit longer and try to sense what other directions we can take, what other possibilities are there, what is the space of the wound, right?
17:33 And... And so for me, in that moment, the space of the wound was physically the space in which we were, in which we were like, was the space in which we were working in with our bodies and with the objects.
17:51 Thank you. And you talk about objects. So you combine an advanced physical practice with meticulously curated visual, spatial, material, and intellectual context. In all that remains, you collaborated with sculptor Sorin Engsted.
18:08 Am I pronouncing that correctly? Yeah, that's correct. Okay, Sorin. And you also collaborated with Sorin on your piece once again, Sisyphus. Can you talk about that collaboration? How did you come to work together and what direction the research took specifically for all that remains, the evolution of the design of the sculptures?
18:28 Yeah, so actually, when Sorin and I worked together for once again, Sisyphus, we were already planning to work on all that remains. But at that moment, I was working at Aros Art Museum, which is a museum here in Aros.
18:48 And I was working on a durational performance called The Longest Gap. And at that time, I invited, so we were already talking with Sorin about all that remains, and I invited him to just hang around in the atelier there at the museum.
19:08 And so the once again, Sisyphus came about rather spontaneously. He made this giant inflatable ball covered with aluminum foliar. And I was carrying this, you know, I have to say that the Aros Art Museum is made like a many different floors that go, I don't know maybe it's like five or six floors and there is this like beautiful staircase, a spiral staircase that runs through the middle of the museum that it really gives this like sense of like a spine of the of the building and but also is made with a very typical Scandinavian Danish architecture where the space is very open you can see all this like the directions of the space are very visible a lot of crossing directions of each of different floors but it's also quite open so you can also see through different floors from balconies and so forth and then I was I was basically going from the bottom floor all the way up with this with this giant giant pole and I think that I was I was disrupting in some ways the flow of people moving.
20:41 And, you know, like when there is a lot of people at the museum, they're going, they go through the museum from one place to another in a very consumption driven way of seeing artworks, right? From one gallery to another.
20:56 And then all of a sudden there's this guy with this giant ball that has to pass. And so it's like kind of disrupting their flow and it's redirecting their attention. And it's also regathering attention in a different and unexpected way while I was in some ways like in Sisyphus being punished to repeat this action over and over and then bring up this aluminum board.
21:27 But Sorin and I, we knew each other already. We met earlier. By chance, because our daughters were going to the same school, in the same class. And then I first met his wife, Diana Baldon, which was the director at the time of the Ors constelles.
21:50 And then I met him and I came across his work. And at that moment, I was already working and researching for all that remains, but I was more in a phase in which I was more busy just with the idea, with the concept of the space of liminality.
22:13 I was very intrigued by this like being between the before and after. But then meeting his work, I was particularly struck by one of his installation work, which is, it's called if the future. isn't bright, at least it's colorful.
22:42 But what it did for me, meeting his work and talking with him about it, is that in that moment of the process, it really like situated in a different way, in a more concrete way, what that space in between was for me.
23:02 And in a very concrete terms, it was a space among remnants, rests between a world that was before and a world that is yet to come. And so, and that actually, before earlier we were talking about the lecture of Bayou Como Lafe, which happened in...
23:31 in almost in the same period. So those two elements, those two encounters, have really directed the work in a specific direction. Yeah, and Sorin, maybe I have to specify, because Sorin's sculptures, he's working with material coming from industrial waste, and he makes like hybrid assemblages that are like this kind of like a, I mean, it's not only industrial waste, it's also working with different kind of like a found objects.
24:08 And that then he transforms through craft interventions. And we have a really exciting collaboration taking place for these Vancouver performances of all that remains. So fourth year students of Simon Fraser University School for the Contemporary Arts production and design program will create artistic responses to Sorin's work re-imagining and producing the sculptures for these local performances.
24:37 So this experiment reflects your ecological and socio-cultural approach to sustainability, because it was, you know, you who kind of brought this idea forward as a possibility. Can you talk about, well, I would actually like to hear a couple things.
24:53 First, let's talk a little bit more about the parameters that you are offering these students. So based on Sorin's work, you know, you talked about hybridity, what are kind of the things that the, yeah, the fundamental parameters that you're offering these students.
25:10 And then afterwards, I want to talk a little bit more about your practice of local collaboration. One of the things that is very important is that the materials that they are going to work with. And yeah, I also have to mention that it's a very exciting a collaboration for me because it speaks to this notion and practice of responsiveness on another level.
25:44 And of course, it also brings some kind of like a level of uncertainty, but I think it's also a lot of potentiality. And that's what it is exactly to stay in that or to create even the conditions to experience that and to work with that.
26:06 And this is a very concrete situation. And I'm really enthusiastic about this. And so go back to the parameters. So there is something about, of course, the type of materials that they use. And this is also, again, exciting, because instead of coming with our objects from Denmark to Vancouver to perform, instead, what are the found objects there, the locally found objects, and what is the the perspective of industrial waste material combined with other synthetic and natural materials,
26:57 right? Like there is some elements that Soren worked with that are like, for instance, coming from the sea, like there is a piece of driftwood, which is fantastic, or there is like a sea sponge and other such elements.
27:14 But so this is one important thing. And then there is another aspect that it was, for me, very important in the way Soren approached the work. Soren is a visual artist, so he has a strong sense of the object, the object that is self-standing because it is exhibited and people are going to experience it, right?
27:40 And but this is like, there is something that is important for me in relation to that, because in the choreographic environment, for me, these objects, they need to be, they need to have their own integrity, so that so that we can activate the responsive level.
28:00 So they're not just objects that are there for us to be manipulated. Not at all, they have they have objects that they have, they need to have some kind of energy and they need to have to be self-standing and have particular textures, particular colors, shapes, weight, and different type of materialities, right?
28:19 And there is something that I always love to quote Sorin for this, that when we went around to find some of the objects that Ben was going to work with, he calls it going for cherry picking, which is a funny, funny term when we go in, in this like recycling, massive space for industrial waste, right, because you have all these materials, but he's going there and he's like picking his cherries.
28:46 And that basically means that within like he really finds these ready mains. So within like hundreds of pieces of the same type of material, he really picks the one that somehow has a form or as an energy that that it's it's it's speaking in some ways and then he carries it and and he works with them with craft intervention that can be from coloring to inserting other elements and to create this hybrid,
29:18 hybrid sculptures and and another element that that is important that I'm trying to communicate then with the with the student review of the universities that this concept of hybridity is for me it has to do with again this state of a state of a space in between right over in this case perhaps it's like it's formal but it's also temporal right it's like we can kind of understand and grasp what the object was or but but it is in a process of transformation it is becoming something else but we don't but that transformation is not completed yet and so I think there is something very beautiful and even poetic poetic about about that there is something about that in the process with with Sodom it was interesting how he himself was surprised by how those sculptures will transform in relation to the to the to the bodies of the performers or in the how that even later on how the whole space will transform and then also the experience of the sculptures will change and and he was surprised in a good in a good way but also it was challenging for him because he's he was not so used to have people handling the objects in that way so there was also a process of like securing and and figuring out what is too dangerous or what it needs to be a little bit more stable and so forth so these are these are notions that are also gonna be transmitted to that to them to the students and at the university and and also an invitation for them to experience them physically so to not only look at the sculpture for how it appears but also to how it feels in their hands and on their bodies because then that that can suggest something to the development of the objects.
31:24 Yeah, I'm so excited for this project. And the dance department students will have a chance to work with you and the objects as well to kind of understand your devising process. So super, I want to be in the room.
31:36 I'm going to sneak in. But so yeah, this also, you have a practice of working in collaboration with local communities in different ways, at least with your previous project Museum of Tellers. So I'm curious about, yeah, how this fits in with your your practice.
32:03 Yeah, I'm like, for me, my choreographic work, I, I became more and more aware of my needs through my own. I don't know if it's a need, it's a drive. probably, to move through different contexts. So I work in between theaters, but also art galleries and museums and public spaces.
32:30 And I have different practices that go from physical practices, but also interdisciplinary or interdisciplinary projects and even publications and participatory practices also sometimes. So I work with people, with local people or non-professionals in different ways.
32:59 And this drive for me to move through different contexts has to do with an interest that I have in understanding in every different space, how can I myself understand what can choreography be and what can choreography do in different contexts and in different situations.
33:26 So I'm always working on how to devise system of responsiveness. So that's my, let's say, bottom part of the work. So that preconceived notions and conventional structures, they are replaced or interrogated at least.
33:56 And my own view on the relation between the materials that exist within a choreographic environment, it's more of the coexistence of multiple processes. And how are these processes talking to one another?
34:14 When working with participatory practices, This is then you were mentioning the Museum of Tellers and that was a project that was very dear to me but it was also heavily affected by the COVID. It happened in times of COVID and the pandemic and later on by the fact that I was moving from Sweden to Denmark.
34:44 So initially that process was focused on a small city in the South of Stockholm and in Sweden. And the idea was to make an intergenerational work. So to bring into dialogue young kids with elderly people.
35:04 And the interest there for me was because Soderthali was one of these like small towns that exist outside of the capital are becoming everywhere what they call sort of a parking, a parking town. And that means that basically people are just like staying there for a little while and then they leave.
35:27 And it's becoming more and more something, places like that are growing. So there is like a kind of disconnection between the elderly and the youngs and then for me was an idea of bringing them together.
35:44 So the main practice that I was proposing there was through interviews, practices of interviews and conversation. But I also have to say that the work has transformed because to do an intergenerational work in times of COVID was really a bad timing.
36:04 So that over time it transformed into another type of form. But that even that transformation going from an intergenerational participatory work into other forms and finally becoming what we called a participatory audio poem, even that transformation is exactly this, it goes in line with this way of working of trying to understand and trying to relate to the circumstances, the conditions and how do we respond and reform under those situation and what can we affect and how do we become affected by.
36:57 Yeah and it's clear that social inquiry is such an important part of your work or the themes that you're working with are much bigger than yourself, looking at the anthropocene and existential questions and in the context of.
37:15 global crises and just to name a couple of the things that have come up and how you describe your own work. But your body is also sometimes part of your practice. So you're a dancer, you've been a member of renowned companies such as the Kalberg Ballet.
37:32 I worked with a variety of choreographers, Deborah Hay, Benoit Le Chambre, who has been informative for my own practice, having trained as a dancer in Montreal. Crystal Pite, of course, you know, everybody here knows Crystal's name, and we'll be excited to know that.
37:52 Alexander Ekman and many others. So, and you were part of the original cast of All That Remains. So I would love to hear about what is the place of your own body in your current artistic practice. Yeah, I mean, it's been really like a great, great variety of choreographers that have informed and provided with a wide range of embodied perspectives on dance.
38:24 And each one of them like a very specific angle and perspective. But part of the process for me in this, like, of this body that accumulates all this perspective, it's also being a space of disorientation, right?
38:44 Because they're so diverse. When we move, like when we talk from like crystal pie to the wallachamp, or from Debra Hei to your one in gear, or, or my check or even more classical forms and tense the author and experimental forms, right?
39:01 And it does create like a sense of disorientation in some ways. But then perhaps that's also what at some point I decided to embrace. And, and, and, and to rather, you know, Umberto, Umberto Eco, there is a passage in one of his one interview from Umberto Eco, where he calls disorientation, a cultural moment, in the sense that disorientation is the moment in which we have to rewire our directions,
39:38 right? So something else becomes understood. So we have to give up something and we have to, we acknowledge something else and we redirect ourselves, right? And, and I guess there is something that about that that's profoundly speaks to me, perhaps even on like, on a personal, on a personal level.
40:00 And, and so that's, I guess, what I embraced in my own physical practice that of like, what I was mentioning before, resisting the compulsion for certainty, and cultivate spaces of temporary disorientation and reorientation.
40:19 And so that has allowed me to bring the given forms and formats and the known formats and their scrutiny. So I think whatever I do right now, I still dance sometimes, a bit less. And as you said, I was, you know, I was part of the, I was on stage for, with all the females.
40:48 And now I'm not, but Even though I'm more dedicated to the development of choreographic practices and the position I take right now is that to think out on fault, this choreographic devices. For me, I'm still working from a movement perspective, right?
41:19 And not that of a pure designer perspective. And so for me, it's still very embodied the way, I think, the systems of responsiveness within the mechanism of the choreographic practice and also the working with the very physical practice, of course.
41:41 But it is more of a position of facilitation, you know, like of a listener, because when I work with so many different mediums and also collaborators, it does become a space of listening and finding ways to calibrate that dialogue, but also to accept that I would like to calibrate also what I can control and with what I cannot control.
42:10 And that's kind of the basic mantra also of my practice. But I think it's still like a very embodied and sensible space that I work from. Thank you so much, Mirko. It's been such a pleasure to speak with you today.
42:30 Thank you, Gabrielle, for giving me the opportunity. It's also been such a pleasure for me. And I look so much forward. You just heard Gabriel Martin's conversation with Mirko Guido. All that remains will be presented at the PUSH International Performing Arts Festival in Vancouver, B.C.
42:50 The festival will run from January 23rd to February 9th. and you can catch the show on January 23rd and 24th at the SFU Gold Corp Center for the Arts. I'm Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Trisha Knowles.
43:08 Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.
43:29 And on the next Push Play. Specifically building Bogota, I remember saying to the team, I really want to build a piece from the back door. And everyone was like, what the hell does that mean? I was like, I don't know, just metaphorically, it feels right.
43:42 Like, what do we how do we build a piece from the back door? How do we build a piece from the bottom up? What does that mean? What does that look like? And through two years of research, what we did was we realized that together, we were sort of building tools. | |||
| 23 Jul 2024 | Ep. 21 - Breakthroughs (2007) | 00:25:39 | |
NOTE: Due to technical difficulties, the audio quality for this episode is not at the usual standard for PuSh Play. Gabrielle chats with Julie-anne Saroyan, co-founder, artistic director and creative producer of Vancouver’s Small Stage, which broke through in the early PuSh Festivals. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin and Julie-anne discuss:
About Julie-anne Saroyan and Small Stage The beating heart at the core of Small Stage is the co-founder, artistic director and creative producer, Julie-anne Saroyan. A visionary leader with a keen eye for emerging talent, her spirit resides at the core of what has made Small Stage an iconic presence for over 20 years. Saroyan’s artistic practice includes dance, stage and production management, lighting and costume design and digital software, media and design thinking. More than 20 years after launching, Small Stage has evolved beyond a singular focus on dance to embrace a broader world of performance, visual arts and music and bring it to the public through non-traditional venues. Small Stage productions blend live and digital platforms to create powerful and innovative mixed-reality performances in the public realm. The work is centred around reducing barriers and elevating dance, music, and performing arts to become more accessible to a broader audience. Simultaneously, Small Stage equips artists with opportunities to extend their reach beyond the limitations of a physical venue by embracing technology and innovation. Saroyan’s work is recognized for fostering the growth of emerging dance artists and musicians and growing audiences with works in both live and digital realms. She continues investigating new technologies and digital strategies to tell stories and bring people as close to art as possible. In 2001, Saroyan co-founded Movement Enterprises (MovEnt) and launched the long-running series Dances for a Small Stage in Vancouver. Dances for a Small Stage shows each featured a curated set of 5-7 minute dance performances that showcase a wide variety of styles and genres of dance, presented in non-traditional venues and beer halls better known for punk rock shows than sophisticated modern dance performances. This innovative approach exposed new audiences to all forms of dance, including Contemporary, Ballet, Urban, Tap, Flamenco, Bhaṅgṛā, Indian Classical, Chinese and Japanese Classical and Contemporary, Scottish Highland, Burlesque and many others. The unique and compelling series was an instant classic, producing over fifty instalments over 20 years in Vancouver, including three shows in Ottawa at the National Arts Centre. Since launching in 2001, Julie-anne has been the engine that drives the company forward. Her passion for dance and the arts and her deep knowledge of history and culture combine with her ability to coordinate, organize, and inspire others to rally for her cause. Beyond Dances for a Small Stage, Saroyan has worked with a variety of dance artists and companies, including Ballet BC, Margie Gillis, Emily Molnar and Crystal Pite/Kidd Pivot, whom she toured with Internationally for more than ten years. She also was on Faculty at Simon Fraser University from 2005-2007 as the Production/Stage Management Instructor in the School for the Contemporary Arts. Saroyan has also worked extensively in Corporate Special Events, creating and producing large-scale awards shows and team-building events in Vancouver and internationally, including Barcelona, Malta & Phoenix and Hawaii. Clients include BP International Engineering Conferences, Nike, Visa International and Buckingham Palace. In 2014, Saroyan mentored under Farooq Chaudhry in London, UK. His ideas and concepts surrounding the role of the cultural entrepreneur in the dance world are fundamental to Saroyan’s approach. Saroyan holds a BFA in Dance and Technical Theatre from York University in Toronto and trained at The Banff Centre in 1993 for Dance Stage Management, Executive Lab at Vantage Point in 2015 and New Fundamentals: Leadership for the Creative Ecology at The Banff Centre in 2016. She is well known for her ability to build capacity for the arts through cross-sectoral collaborations, strategic partnerships, and mutually beneficial alliances. Her work in the dance sector includes incubating new choreographic work and developing promising artists through uniquely designed workshops, mentorships, and hands-on residencies. Julie-anne challenges artists to push boundaries and explore new styles and movements. Their dedication and passion are a continual source of inspiration for Saroyan. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:22 Today's episode for the 2007 Push Festival highlights dances for a small stage in conversation with Julianne Sarian. The beating heart at the core of small stage is the co -founder, artistic director, and creative producer, Julianne Sarian.
Gabrielle Martin 00:36 A visionary leader with a keen eye for emerging talent, her spirit resides at the core of what has made small stage an iconic presence for over 20 years. Sarian's artistic practice includes dance, stage and production management, lighting, and costume design, and digital software, media, and design thinking.
Gabrielle Martin 00:54 More than 20 years after launching, small stage has evolved beyond a singular focus on dance to embrace a broader world of performance, visual arts, and music, and bring it to the public through non -traditional venues.
Gabrielle Martin 01:05 Here's my conversation with Julianne.
Gabrielle Martin 01:10 I'll just frame where we are and give some context to where we're having this conversation today. We are out in the streets of downtown and so -called Vancouver, which is on the stolen and ancestral traditional territories of the post Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil -Waututh.
Gabrielle Martin 01:29 And Julianne, you have your relationship with this land as a settler.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 01:34 Yes, I'm so thankful to be on this land. I came to Vancouver in 1994, and prior to that, I was a settler in Ontario. My heritage is Armenian, which is sort of a hidden Middle Eastern culture wrapped up in its own genocide.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 01:59 So I really, once I moved to Vancouver, I really feel the connection with the people here much differently than where I grew up as a settler. So I'm very thankful to live in the west coast, on the coast, in the Coast Salish Nation.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 02:15 Thank you.
Gabrielle Martin 02:16 We're going to be going back in time to the early days of small stages and the very beginning of Push because dances for a small stage was part of Push in the very first Push Festival in 2005, then again in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, and 2012.
Gabrielle Martin 02:38 That's a long time. That's a real relationship. It's a long ride, yeah. It's really part of the identity of Push in those early years. So yeah, can you just tell me about how the relationship with Push started and how you started to collaborate?
Julie-Anne Saroyan 02:55 I think in those early days, I came through stage management to production management, and that's where I met Norman. And Norman was such a person of great vision, and he had this vision, and it was called the Push Festival.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 03:12 And we met at different places around the world at different festivals, including Eftaya in Montreal. And what were you doing there at this time? I was stage managing for Crystal, Crystal Pite at the time, and that's how we would meet up.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 03:30 I was playing at festivals, and he was doing research and development for the Push Festival. And I remember specifically one night in Montreal, him saying, I think I'm almost ready to put out the first Push Festival.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 03:49 And I said, well, I've been doing dance, we've been doing dances for a small stage for like, at that point, probably like four years. Okay.
Gabrielle Martin 04:02 It was a very early...
Julie-Anne Saroyan 04:02 Yeah, we our first show is in 2020 2002 okay in May
Gabrielle Martin 04:10 I remember ten small stages. I left in 2006, but before then I have vivid memories, and I think we're going to get there, but I have a vivid memory of watching Crystal Pite performing in an alien helmet in the early 2000s on a small stage.
Gabrielle Martin 04:28 It is like an image that stays with me to this day. That's how cool you are.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 04:35 doing it. Well we were just there in that space at that time. Like just a very creative space and thinking outside the box and that you could do really interesting partnerships with people and this was like in those early years it was a satellite show that we didn't have any money to actually do any marketing back then.
Gabrielle Martin 05:02 So, enmeshed in your community. YA-
Julie-Anne Saroyan 05:05 Yeah, and it was actually the push festival who raised our trajectory and just went, we went like kaplui with our lineups around the block. Like who had lineups around the block? Because we didn't have a ticketing system.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 05:24 We had cash at the door, I don't know if you remember, and nobody could get pre -tickets. So you had to line up. We had people lining up. Because of the push festival, like we exponentially grew. So our very first show was at Crush Lounge right beside the dance center.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 05:48 And the very first show that we had for push, Emily Molnar, was dancing in that show. And she, who then, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 05:59 at that time when I was before she was with Ballet BC. She's gone on.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 06:03 think she was a dancer with Ballet BC at that time and then she went on to become the artistic director of Ballet BC and from there now she's in the at Netherlands Dance Theatre and it's just awesome I think that was the real job of dance's for a small stage at that time to bring artists together and be this hot house of Vancouver Dance.
Gabrielle Martin 06:32 because so maybe you could just share with us what the format was small stages oh yeah it's really and what was it and what was that first idea how did that start how did you say okay we're gonna do this first one
Julie-Anne Saroyan 06:44 Well the series started in Toronto actually with Laura Taller. I was a baby stage manager just out of York University and stage managing by that time. And a dancer at that time. And a dancer and a terrible choreographer.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 06:59 Terrible choreographer. Honestly. Yes. I knew what to do. I just really couldn't do it well. So we find something else to do in dance. So that was what stage management was to me. And by that time, Laura Taller was doing the show in Toronto.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 07:24 And then stopped it after about a few years. I moved to Vancouver. And with a friend, Dei Hellesik, we started small stage in 2002. And it just grew and grew and grew it seems. What the intention was, was to follow that same format that Laura Taller had in Toronto, which was, and we developed it a little bit more here.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 07:47 So it was actually eight artists. It was really small, but we tried to invite all our friends. And at the time it included Chrissy Rockbottom was Crystal Pite's alias name. At the time she just moved back from Frankfurt.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 08:07 Corey Caulfield was in it. Holy Body Tattoo, Dana and Noam were in it in that first year because we just thought it was, we paid everybody 50 bucks, I think, and they all showed up and we were.
Gabrielle Martin 08:21 because these are artists that, yes, it was earlier in their careers and their careers of all.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 08:27 Yeah, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 08:29 they were they were professionals they weren't I don't know would you call them emerging at that time I would say they were already like mid -career or were they
Julie-Anne Saroyan 08:36 Oh it's really interesting though because I never thought of them as like I thought they were at that time I think they were more established yeah yeah like they were quite established artists at that time like
Gabrielle Martin 08:49 Yeah. Like they were- Yeah, it wasn't an emerging art technique. No, it wasn't an emerging. Because, you know, often the shorter form, it's assumed that, oh, emerging artists have to work in the short form, and then you become more established, and then you work in long form.
Gabrielle Martin 09:02 It's so exciting, I think, for artists. It's just a different form. So it's really exciting for any stage of their career. And I think this was really exciting to be able to see these artists that, like, I already was aware that Crystal was somebody at that point.
Gabrielle Martin 09:16 You know? And if these people were more engaged in an intimate space. Yeah.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 09:20 was what was really important that we were showcasing professionals doing things like they were trying out things sometimes like Crystal used to pick out little sections of things she was working on at the time and like it was in a cabaret format so it wasn't as serious as it was maybe when she put the piece into a longer format she could test things out it was a test kitchen right at that time but then also people used it as a jumping -off point for dancing on the edge they would do a longer piece like it grounded people maybe at a certain place in creation certain point where you get you do need to test things out well that's Norman's fault I'm gonna get so I so Norman actually and I you know the first push fat first push show we had as I said Emily maulnar in it which was she was not known at the time and I think it's really important to note that the second show had Margie Gillis in it right
Gabrielle Martin 10:37 to the next stage, to the extent that you were telling me she was wearing her hair with Oh my god!
Julie-Anne Saroyan 10:42 I want you to know that in those early days, I ran the lights and the sound, cause that's what you do, right? And, and she said to me, Julianne, if my hair gets caught in the lights, when I do my big flick of my hair at the end and her hair's what?
Julie-Anne Saroyan 11:02 Like, I'm just going to say it's like 10 feet long, but it's not, but it's like.
Gabrielle Martin 11:08 long enough to be concerned it's going to get caught in the lights.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 11:10 She said, grab your scissors and cut my hair.
Gabrielle Martin 11:15 We're gonna do it anyways. Yeah, we're gonna do it if you need to.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 11:19 We were, like, very, very committed to the art form at that time.
Gabrielle Martin 11:28 Um, so, you're ready with your decision as well, you're done.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 11:32 Well, what was so exciting was I think the format is really exciting because we chose eight artists always. That was the formula. Eight artists, which we then shoved an intermission in between, so you would see four people, four people.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 11:49 It was five to seven minute pieces. They weren't very, like, not long at all. I think we were able to really play with that formula because sometimes we did get those really, like, as Krystal started to gain popularity, like, we didn't realize that she was a draw.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 12:10 But we really wanted to make sure we were capturing a full, like, the full diversity of genres and styles. It was really important for me to have tap, to have bongra, to have classical dance, to have Chinese classical, Japanese classical.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 12:30 Like it was really important for me to experiment with classical and contemporary, cultural and you can mix cultural and classical, cultural and contemporary. And this is what the artistry of, or what dance artists were really doing at that time.
Gabrielle Martin 12:53 And did the vision for it evolve between 2005, the first collaboration with Push, and 2012? Oh, and I also want to ask, these were more than just once a year, right? It was just once a year with Push.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 13:06 That's right. That's right. Because at one point we realized that we should be applying for funding. And because of that we had to start doing more regular shows. So we were doing three shows a year, which was pretty significant.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 13:24 And so we were like this well oiled machine. But what happened with Push, it was we had to move venues from downtown to a larger venue. Again, Norman Armour. Thank you. We didn't know how popular we were getting.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 13:44 And until we moved to the Legion on the Drive, which is the show that you're talking about.
Gabrielle Martin 13:50 But I, okay, I've been to more than one then because I remember the Crash Lounge. I remember being in the Crash Lounge. I thought that's where I remembered seeing the alien help.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 13:59 You're right, because Crystal did two. She did one at Crush, and it was really funny, like, as you pointed out, when you do small snippets of work, different things kind of work.
Gabrielle Martin 14:13 out so so you were saying that thanks to Norman yeah thanks to Norman
Julie-Anne Saroyan 14:22 dared it blew up because uh so you're right we did we did emily molar then we did that show with margie gillis and then you're talking about yes when crystal was at crush she did an alien tap dance and then how could she and where else because that was part of our show that we were touring so i think she needed to try it out because i think yeah that was a very um but she did also an alien um song because if you're gonna do an alien tap dance you better do an alien song so but the mic we didn't that we didn't twist the the mic stand up we didn't know enough to like tighten the mic stand we were learning and so and it fell during the show and so this is when you as a performer and making mistakes and fixing the cruise mistakes or whatever is fun and you kind of play off that
Gabrielle Martin 15:30 audience too in that kind of environment where they understand that it's just all kind of, there's a lot extra live quality to it. Yeah. And you had said then that, okay, that it moved to the Legion.
Gabrielle Martin 15:43 Yeah, yeah. And oh, you were also talking about how it was a testing ground for artists and there's something that comes out, it's an opportunity to, even with the same material in a different context, you know, the impact, the effect, the dramaturgy of that can shift.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 16:00 Yeah, I think it's, that is what I think started, we started to realize what was happening with small stage is that we were having, that people were, it was a testing ground, so you could test your work with an audience at different stages of the creative development process.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 16:16 You could come back to small stage because we were having them so often, test another part, and then go and be at the Canada Dance Festival or be at Dancing on the Edge and do a longer work because of that.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 16:31 And I think that that part of the ecosystem is really important for artists, that interim step, no matter what age of artist you are. I don't know how we're defining things right now, so like what phase in your work and in your career and in your practice you are or what, like that was what's really important.
Gabrielle Martin 16:56 And so you, early on, it was clear that this was something people were excited about, artists and audiences were excited about. And then did you change the format at all over those seven years that it was at Push?
Gabrielle Martin 17:10 Or was it like, this is working, other than changing the location to allow more audience to come in, let's just kind of like keep this thing going, like we know we have something good here.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 17:19 Yeah, we stuck to our formula. We tinkered with our formula, but what we also needed to tinker with was, and our biggest change was actually tickets. And when that shift happened, it was less exciting.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 17:36 It started to be less exciting, actually. And I think it sort of started to catch on with other theaters, started to do lots of cabarets, circus started to do things in Vancouver. And I feel like it was a different, in about 2019, I shifted to be more focused outdoors, just because I wanted to tinker with a new level, although I was still using the same five to seven minute formula.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 18:14 I wanted to be outdoors and be accessible to general audiences.
Gabrielle Martin 18:19 Yeah, well there's something that is fundamentally accessible about this format, about taking dance out of a conventional theatre space, about having, you know, for a lot of people an hour -long contemporary dance.
Gabrielle Martin 18:29 It's too, it's very difficult. Yeah, so yeah, that kind of, that context.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 18:37 And that's the audience we were getting more of, like we were getting more of a general audience who knew that they had, they were, there was a smorgasbord concept. Like the menu concept where you would go, oh, if you didn't like that piece, you know, maybe you don't like Bhutto or something that you, you know, five minute, five minutes.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 19:01 And sometimes we, we converted people like, I didn't think I liked Bhutto, but now I do because I saw so -and -so. And that was really another layer to the show as well.
Gabrielle Martin 19:15 And so now you're thinking about bringing it back indoors post.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 19:19 Yeah, I'm gonna do that thing called the turnaround and I think that that is the job and the role of Small Stage right now. But that we need something that's going to help bring artists and communities together, audiences.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 19:38 I mean one of the things was that I could go around to the tables in that casual format and talk to people and so that is really exciting to get little snippets of how to watch shows and stuff.
Gabrielle Martin 19:54 You know, there's the benefits of outdoor work that push doesn't really benefit from because of the time of year, but yeah, you can just have people who walk up and stumble upon a work. But then also the indoor context is like, yeah, as you're mentioning, people are contained and held in that space.
Gabrielle Martin 20:08 And so maybe there's more opportunity or it kind of encourages more, yeah, in that small stages lounge cabaret environment, more conversation, more, yeah, experiencing from start to finish and having them.
Gabrielle Martin 20:23 Exactly.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 20:27 So yes, I'm really excited to, we just got announced at STIR Magazine this morning, we are bringing back small stage in July.
Gabrielle Martin 20:42 25.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 20:43 No, in a month.
Gabrielle Martin 20:45 Amazing.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 20:49 But to be continued, I think it's, yeah, yeah. And I think that now I can, with all this, you know, really exciting stuff, like I was doing my four year grant and had to look back and this is perfect timing and, and went, wow, we did all that hot house, like stuff.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 21:11 And it really is time to do that again. And, and to bring the community together. So I now, the evolution is curation. So I've curated all women of multi -generations and diverse backgrounds, and I'm really excited.
Gabrielle Martin 21:32 I'm really excited to and it's just I so appreciate it's been a nice to go back down memory lane also because I have my own really strong memories from some of the early ones. Oh yeah you
Julie-Anne Saroyan 21:48 You remembered that bubble head, didn't you? Yeah. You know, that bubble head was a real problem on tour. Ah! Crystal almost passed out so many times and that's what we were workshopping in those early shows.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 22:01 It was really about- We had to drill holes in that thing. Can she last?
Gabrielle Martin 22:05 Yes! And if you're gonna pass that one soon, it seems like a safer environment than you are.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 22:09 it closer to the edge of the stage so you I can pull you off
Gabrielle Martin 22:16 but it seems like so much of what you're talking about has this like kind of this exciting raw kind of a bit like punk rock just kind of like let's make this happen which i think is the ethos of the early push it was this like grand and total adventure of like let's just do this as a community yeah can we do this yes we can yeah and and so
Julie-Anne Saroyan 22:40 And we were punk rock at the time. I think that's a great way to put it, because we wore like a lot of black and we like smoked. And that was really tenacity and pure like we can do this. Yeah. And Norman really led that charge.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 23:03 Like we can do this and we did. And that was so exciting.
Gabrielle Martin 23:08 And so, you know, you've already kind of spoke to the cultural context of Bush and its significance for Small Stage. I guess that's really what we've just been talking about. And that that collaboration brought in some other non -dance audiences.
Gabrielle Martin 23:24 Yeah.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 23:25 It really, when I say we jumped, I think it's fair to say, I was just thinking about this last night, the first time we were in push, that was the first time that we'd ever had our ad in a brochure, that the distribution was 10 ,000 people.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 23:46 And we'd never done marketing before. And so then this show was lined up out the street and we were sold out at one point and people were yelling at us and we just didn't know that that could happen.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 24:02 And Norman said, you have a problem. And we said, we're going to fix it for next year. Yeah, I think that, you know, the the sheer tenacity at the time was was a lot.
Gabrielle Martin 24:18 Thanks.
Julie-Anne Saroyan 24:19 Thank you so much, Julianne. You! I'm so excited about your programming and what you're going to do in this 20th year of push and where the ball is going to go!
Ben Charland 24:34 That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.
Ben Charland 24:50 A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at pushfestival.
Ben Charland 25:09 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. Thanks for watching!
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| 26 Nov 2024 | Ep. 40 - Pride, Squats and Vietnamese Rap (Bleu Néon) | 00:35:46 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Châu Kim-Sanh, the artist behind Bleu Néon at the upcoming PuSh Festival, January 23 - February 9. Bleu Néon will be presented with Plastic Orchid Factory at Left of Main on January 28 and 29. Show Notes Gabrielle and Châu Kim-Sanh discuss:
About Chau Kim-Sanh Châu Kim-Sanh (she/her) is a choreographer-dancer, filmmaker, and cultural worker. Her stage creations have been presented at the MAI, Tangente, l’Arsenal, l’Écart (Canada), Krossing-Over (Vietnam), Performance Curator Initiatives (Philippines), and SIDance (Korea), among others. In 2023, she collaborates as a dancer with Ariane Dessaulles, Erin Hill, and compagnies Katie Ward, Carpe Diem /Emmanuel Jouthe. Châu is the artistic director at Studio 303. She was an associate artist at EQUIVOC’ from 2018 to 2024. In 2024 she founded her own company, MIDLAND, which supports her artistic practice. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Châu Kim-Sanh joined the conversation from what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights the subversive potential of movement and the reclamation of pride.
00:18 I'm speaking with Chow Kim -san, the artist behind Blue Nail, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 28th and 29th, 2025. Chow Kim -san is a choreographer, dancer, and filmmaker. She is Vietnamese -French and lives in Jojage, Muyang, Montreal.
00:35 Kim -san is interested in diasporic practices and works in relation to her Vietnamese heritage and North American context. Here's my conversation with Kim -san. I'm really thrilled to be having this conversation with you today about Blue Neon, about your wider practice, and just I'm so excited that Blue Neon is coming to Push.
00:56 We've been in conversation now for a couple of years. The piece was going to come in 2023, 2024, for this last festival. And then you had a baby, which is great. And now you have a baby and you'll bring the piece to 2025.
01:11 Yes, that's very exciting. Yeah. So yes, it's all coming together and I'm just really thrilled to introduce our public two -year practice this way. And then of course, I hope they all come see the show.
01:24 So just before we really get into the conversation, I do want to acknowledge that I am here speaking to you from the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh.
01:39 I'm a settler here. And part of that responsibility is ongoing learning. And that looks like different things on different days today that is in relationship to gender and generational justice. And a lot of my learning these days is in thanks to Yellowhead Institute's report.
02:00 I am really grateful for so much learning through this institute. And so specifically, with regard to their report on transportation inequities for Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA+, the learning has been about recognizing mobility as a social determinant of health and the need to call the Government of Canada to align with the need to address this, because current health policies failed to address the significant barriers First Nations face when accessing essential services from reserves.
02:42 Kim San, you were born and raised in France. You've lived in Canada for 12 years, and you've been travelling to Vietnam and collaborating with Vietnamese artists and organizations for eight years. Can you tell us about your relationship to place?
02:56 Yes. Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Gabrielle. Yes, so my name is Kim Sanchao, and I'm Vietnamese and French. I live in Géo -Géi, Muyang, Montreal, and I would like to start by acknowledging that I live on unsaid territory.
03:15 The Géo -Géi nation is recognized as the custodians of the land and water, and Géo -Géi is historically known as a gathering place for many First Nations, including the Ganyan Gehaga, the Euron Wendat, the Abenakis, and the Anishinaabe.
03:36 Also, since I travel and partially live a little bit in Vietnam, I started doing research about Indigenous people over there in order to make also connections and sense to me. Vietnam accounts for about 50 Indigenous populations, and in Asia they're named ethnic minorities.
04:09 Their history is different than here, so sometimes I don't fully understand what I research about Indigenous populations over there, but what I found is that the main five ethnic minorities are the Thai, the Thai, T -H -A -I, different than the Thailand, the Hmong, and the Yao.
04:36 The city where I come from, which is Daigon, it's where my family has been living for generations, was historically inhabited by the Khmer people and various Chiang communities before the significant settlement of the Khin, which are the dominant populations.
04:57 the Vietnamese. And I also read that Saigon, that is now called Ho Chi Minh City, was back in that day's name. So under the Khmer people, it was named Prey Nokor. That's it. Thank you, Kim Sanh. Thank you.
05:22 And I forgot your first question. I haven't asked it yet. I was like, oh my God, that was very quick. No, I'm actually going to just contextualize it with a little bit more information on the neon. So bathed in neon luminescence of an imagined Saigon nightscape, child Kim Sanh's rap incantations and meticulous motions form a prayer to the embodied yearning and fantasize nostalgia of the Asian diaspora.
05:55 Blue neon is a solo performed entirely from the position of the squat, used as a cultural, political, and aesthetic symbol of Asian being. So let's start with why the squat, and what does it represent to you, or in general?
06:07 Yes, so I've been working on the squat position for a while now, and I'm still working on it for a future project. There's many reasons, but I would start with the very beginning. So at the very beginning, blue neon was meant to be a trio piece, and with COVID, it became a solo with myself.
06:30 And while I was doing the body research, the explorations, I very quickly realized that the squat was a position where I felt comfortable, but mostly I felt very secured and empowered. And blue neon is about nostalgia of Vietnam that I was not born in.
06:56 So it's the imaginary stuff that you learn from your parents. It's not a real nostalgia, it's also, it lives in our dreams. And I think it's very, it's part of being a diasporic population. So I was working on reconnecting with nostalgia, and I found that the squat was actually a very strong vehicle for me to access body memory.
07:32 And later, I also, I mean, later also quickly, I also realized that it was the case for most people, most Asian people I would share the work with. Now, the squat has also predicted more like my personal relationship with the squat, but the squat is also, a very nice choreographic challenge to me, because at first it hasn't been explored that much, but there's not a lot of work, research.
08:08 All we know about the squad is about training in North America, the so -called Asian squad, like yoga position. It appears here and there, but there is no real research or deep research. So there was the challenge of starting something about it, and also to work from a position that is hard on the body when you move, like it's not easy to move up and down.
08:39 And it's also a position, it's a still position from the beginning, so a position to rest. So there's a lot of constraints that for me are very exciting too. work around either to feel more comfortable, find ways to be more comfortable with the squad or now I'm also working on how to cheat the squad so that's for me that's very exciting.
09:10 And then there is also the political aspect of the squad such as being low versus higher on a chair. There is a class and financial aspect of it like who has a chair and who doesn't have a chair. There is a historic and also cultural which is what I was talking about in the first place the fact that it's widely used in Asia.
09:40 And your research has shown differences between the meaning of the squat in for example Vietnam compared to the Philippines. Can you talk about that? Yes, so when I started I thought the squad was just the squad which to me meant with my references the squad is related to the functional position.
10:09 It's used to work, to hang out, so you're having a coffee. I have a coffee with my family with smoke cigarettes that was the squad. It's also a position to rest, to wait but in my perspective it was definitely a functional and modest position.
10:33 And then as I started researching and also touring I also realized that even in Asia it has different meaning and representations. So the example I often mention is when I went to the Philippines in 2023 I went to show the work and also teach and work with dancers in Tagaitai and Manila and the dancers over there often, there's a few who said very strongly that for them the piece was, they were wondering if it had a spiritual meaning and when I asked what kind of spiritual meaning they're talking about,
11:17 they said it's because for us it's a representation of an indigenous god who is often represented in this wedding -sitting position and this god is protecting the right props. So they were very curious to know, does my piece have anything to do with spirituality?
11:43 And also they questioned the representation of using the bathroom which is very in Asia. toilet came very fast, very, very late. So there is the way people used to go to bathroom was worrying, but there is the opposition between a position that is very spiritual, but also dirty, you know, in many ways, you know, and, and then I also, and then I realized I had, he had other meanings or references.
12:21 I think the one that comes back often that I was not so aware at the beginning is the class reference. So my partner who is from like, Indian descent, there are smellies. The first thing he told me was like, Oh, does it have to do with class?
12:42 Because in India, it's only the lower class who would sit on the ground. So then it, it's at this point that I started to research on the meaning on having a chair who has access to a chair, what does it mean to have a chair?
13:00 And, and how and also the opposite, what does it mean to be on the ground? Because the squat is a position where you're on the ground, but you're not white on the ground, like your bum is not touching the ground.
13:15 So you can be on like the dirty ground without getting dirty. And maybe I'm going somewhere but it's also I shared with a dancer named Brian Falman. I don't know if you know Brian, but Brian was a is the different room.
13:39 And they work in intense performance. And they were telling me that they're working around tools of body control. And that the chair was One tool from the Western world, Western culture about controlling bodies, like the squat.
14:00 When you squat, even if it's still positioned, but you must move at all times. And there is always like a muscle activity. So someone who is squatting, they will eventually travel around because you can't sit on a squat forever.
14:19 Whereas you can sit on a chair forever. So when people are in a line, they put them on a chair, they stay in line. When you work and you work on a chair, you can work forever on your chair. If you're sitting in a squat, it's different.
14:36 People cannot control you for that long because you must move either like a little bit or more, which is more like traveling. was super fascinating. Yeah, all the symbolism and references and the subversive symbol that it is, given that history.
15:02 And you've spoken about the the squat being a tool to connect or reconnect to Asian body roots through because teaching is a big part of your practice. And you've witnessed that through your squat workshops there's this reconnection for Asian, Asian diasporic folks.
15:20 Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by Asian body roots and what's been revealed through this work? Yeah, so I've been teaching in Asia and I've been teaching in Montreal mostly for the squat.
15:37 And in Montreal, I taught with a collective named Superboat People, which is a diasporic from South East Asia collective. And we did this amazing workshop with all type all kind of age and ability in the bodies.
15:53 And they were all Asian descent. And at the beginning, I find that they're a little shy, you know, but Asian people are usually mostly doers. So if I say let's squat, then everyone, everyone will just squat.
16:09 And at the beginning, they were a little shy. But after a while, they started we started talking about how I think they were they were expressing that they were very proud. They realized that first, the squat was quite easy for them to do like they were, they found mobility, strength, but also beauty in this position.
16:40 And we talked about we all have memories of I have memories of my uncles, a lot of people have memories about their grandmothers. cooking, taking care of kids, just doing a day -to -day thing and it was very moving how they, it's kind of like they forgot because we don't sit squatting here, we sit on chairs so we forget that we have this ability and usually when we remember it's not a very proud,
17:18 it's not with pride that we remember the squat. So in that workshop, in that context of dancing, it was very lovely to see them reconnecting with their with their body and when I teach in Asia it's also different because for them the squat is very much part of their life, like it's actually like the, often the first minute like I said oh let's squat and then there was quite perfectly and vigorously and everything you want and then I'm like so what do we do now and I'm like oh well and then we discuss about why we do what you know but there is always this pride in the process of being able to squat in a beautiful and I would say like not a modest way you know like with yeah with with elegance and yeah.
18:21 And you spoke a bit about the difference different reception and the different references that people have when they view the work for example in the Philippines compared to elsewhere and you perform the work in Canada you perform the work in different Asian countries and in Canada too I imagine Asian and non -Asian audiences can you talk a bit about how the work is interpreted or just your experience of performing it in those different contexts?
18:51 Yeah so here in Canada I performed so far in Quebec in the city in Montreal and outside Montreal and I perform for general public but also for Asian communities and also in Asia I perform in different places.
19:14 I would tell you that there is their reception but also my perception of performing in those different places. When I'm in Montreal I get a little nervous because I how my peers are going to look and think about my work and when I go to Asia there is this but there is also oh I'm Asian but also Western for them you know so in Vietnam I'm not I'm not Vietnamese, I'm called Viet -Q, which is a specific word for diasporic people.
19:55 So we're not really part of it. And I feel always a little shy, but also very at ease because I find that in Vietnam, the public is very... They're very direct, and they also don't assume that they know better than you.
20:19 And they don't assume that they need to understand everything. There are certain things they understand. Some others they don't. They will tell you they're very straightforward, but they don't need to understand, control, analyze, and question and confront everything.
20:39 Which is much easier for me than to have a dialogue. I find it a very enriching process. And for them, when I perform in Asia, they recognize the squat very fast, because the first images I do are a squat where I'm at the cafe with my uncle.
21:05 I take a very usual position, so they recognize it straight away, which is not the case here. Here it takes a little bit of time for people to recognize what I'm doing. So there it is. And I think in Asia, the feedback I receive is much more about the link between the effort of the squat and the impact on the emotions.
21:34 And they talk a lot about the Blue Neos, also a lot about Vietnamese rap. So they talk a lot about the Vietnamese rap because I don't speak Vietnamese. So they usually say to me that I'm very brave, which I don't really know what that means.
21:53 It's not really a compliment, but I'll take it. And it's true that, I mean, if I can elaborate a little bit on it, I would tell you that the piece is very physically demanding, like I sweat a lot, because I squat the entire time.
22:18 And it takes me to a place where at some point, at a moment in the piece, I overcome the pain of the position, and there's like a superpower coming from inside of me to the outside. And here, people, they mention a lot the birthing process through squatting, which I can I see the, because I gave birth this year, which is funny because I didn't give birth squatting at all.
22:55 I just laid down. I was like, I was like, ah, it's too painful for me. I'm just going to lay down. No squatting. Thank you. But, but I see the, the relationship, I mean, I was more about the, the strengths, the resilience, but also the release, you know, so you need to, when you give birth, you often navigate between those three.
23:20 And then it's like super power coming out of you. So, so the, I find the Asian, Asian audiences a lot, like they, they ask a lot about this aspect of, of the work. And here I find people being moved and talk about their emotion, but they also, they try to analyze a lot of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.
23:47 the references, which I understand, you know, but they, that's the difference to me. They try to intellectualize why I do this. What does that mean? What does that represent? How does Blue Neon relate and form or subject to your past or upcoming projects?
24:03 So I've been, I've been, uh, re -coaching on the squad and doing the Vietnamese rap for a while now, uh, and I'm still doing it. Um, for the future, I will, uh, continue squaring, but now I'm, I'm in the process of, um, uh, researching for four people.
24:24 Can I just interrupt to ask why Vietnamese rap? Why? And you don't speak Vietnamese. Yeah. Um, yeah. How did that come about? Uh, so it's, it, for me, it's another way to, to connect with Vietnam. So, uh, Vietnamese rap has, has been extremely popular for maybe 10 years in, in Asia, in Vietnam.
24:52 Um, they, they watch a TV show like, um, uh, King of Rap, uh, Rap Viet. So they're like, uh, So You Think You Can Do Vietnamese Rap? Uh, so it's been extremely popular. Of course, uh, it's, uh, uh, inspired by, um, black American, uh, hip hop culture.
25:13 Um, it translates in an awkward way because there is no black American really in Asia. Uh, so it's a little bit clumsy. Um, and, uh, and I was very moved because it's the first time that I saw, uh, Asian young people talking about themselves with pride.
25:41 Um, Asian, Asian people, we're often, we must be very quiet. known for that, and it's true. We're very discreet people. And we, I find like we often subdue or when we don't, we do it, we don't do it in an upfront manner.
26:02 But with rap music, I saw young Vietnamese people talking about themselves, what they do, who they are. And I was very moved by it. My generation, like because they're younger than me, my generation, we didn't have that.
26:20 We must be ashamed of being Asian. So I was, I was very moved by it. And during the pandemic, I didn't, I lost touch with Vietnam, like I couldn't go anymore. So I would just watch those TV shows at home.
26:37 And then I started also thinking I have a lot of friends and family, like my cousins in Vietnamese rap scene in Vietnam, and also I don't speak the language. It's really hard for me to learn, so I've been learning Vietnamese for many years now at school, and Vietnamese rap was just a beautiful way for me to say something that sounded correct.
27:11 It really helped with the pronunciation, and I felt like in the same way that the squat was about embodying my Vietnamese connection, the Vietnamese rap also had this effect on me. So for Plunion, I had a Vietnamese rapper named Jay, who lives in Toronto, who wrote the text for me, and I thought the lyrics would be simple, but the lyrics are very heavy.
27:52 The text is very dense, pages of lyrics, and also I've been mentored a lot, and I used to do it in a very shy manner, and then I had like rap mentors who came, like actually all of them, they came to the studio, and they were like, if you do it, you have to do it fully, because rap music is about being proud.
28:13 It's not about being shy, and I used to do it in the dark, and I had like a little blue light on top of my head. Now I think about it, I'm like, that was cute, but that was a bit silly. So anyway, I had to learn these pages and pages of rap, and also to embody it without understanding what it, like, I mean, I understand the text, but when I say the words, I don't understand what I'm saying, so then I had to learn,
28:42 with my mentors, my different coach, I had to learn the gesture that I'm supposed to be using and it was funny because it was more, it was easier to accept in my body than in my memory of the lyrics.
29:01 So anyway, all that to say that now I'm working on, I'm still doing some rap research but now I'm doing, I'm and I call it rap for babes because I speak like a baby who is three years old. So now I started rapping also children's book in Vietnamese and I do that with the kid.
29:25 It's very cute. It's very cute. It's, but it's not, I'm not sure it's good from on a professional standard, but at home it's great. Yeah. I mean, I'll bring my two -year -old to your concert. Thank you.
29:42 Thank you very much. Vietnamese rap was really something in my life, and maybe to end this little loop about it, I would tell you that since Blue Neon, I've also done a rap mentoring here in Quebec with different artists, and this process was very interesting because it made me realize that I was really not born here.
30:15 I can read and meet a lot of people, but to understand the historic, social, economic context of rap music here in Quebec, I can only access it intellectually. There's something that really doesn't integrate physically.
30:42 I've been doing that, and it's been great, and I did it after creating Blue Neon, so it's kind of like after that I connected some elements. So now it's interesting also to still perform Blue Neon, but also have done that process afterwards.
31:07 And I had interrupted you when you were going to speak a bit more to how this research is related to your current projects or your previous projects. Yeah, so I don't know if it's for, I only know for the future, and for the squad.
31:28 Right now I'm working with three other dancers, so with four performers squaring, and I chose to work with a mix. cast of Caucasian and Asian people and so I think it's going to be more it's going to be a little it's going to be less about the Asian squad to say but it's going to be more about the question on domination and cheating cheating the squad and how to support each other be be together while having different bodies and performing the squad and the cheating of the squat is that for now like purely physical challenge choreographic challenge with regard to the physical language and then and its relevance in terms of uh the concept of the piece will be developed as you explore it physically or do you already have a reason like a conceptual reason for why that cheating of the squat is interesting yeah Um,
32:37 I don't know yet I'm very early in the process. So right now, all I know is that with different, because for Blue Neo, it was easy in a way, because I only work with my buddy who can quite very well.
32:49 But now I also work with different bodies and some, some of them don't quite so well. Uh, and I think I'm more interested about how we can do something together without having the same abilities. Um, so I kind of have to go through the chain, but maybe it's not the end.
33:10 Uh, maybe, maybe it will turn into something else in a similar way. I'm, I'm very curious about, um, putting the space. Um, but I don't know yet if I'm going to go there. I'm going to do research, but, um, I don't know yet if it's going to be part of the, of the, of the piece, you know, because Montreal, like many, most of our cities, everything is getting more and more expensive related to space.
33:38 And so there is this, I'm interested with the idea of squatting space, um, about, um, getting in, um, from a political, um, and activist perspective. You know, what does that, what does that mean? What can we do with it?
33:54 So I don't know yet, but that's the, that's the, the things I'm working on right now. Well, there's a lot of rich material there. Um, and, and ideas. Thank you so much. I'm really so thrilled to welcome you here.
34:08 And now I'm thinking about how we can organize your, um, baby rap concert as well. Thanks so much. Thank you. That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Kao Chim San, the artist behind Blut Nayon, which is being presented at the upcoming push festival in Vancouver, BC from January 23rd to February 9th.
34:37 Blit Néon will be presented with Plastic Orchid Factory at left of Maine on January 28th and 29th. I'm Trisha Knowles. I'm one of the producers of this podcast along with Ben Charlin. We'd like to thank Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition.
34:53 New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. This year marks the 20th festival for Push International Performing Arts Festival. If you'd like to explore more of Push over the last 20 years, please look for our special 20th anniversary retrospective Push Play season.
35:11 And for more information on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup, visit PushFestival .ca. Coming up on the next Push Play. After the show, some people send me a message via Instagram.
35:25 We never give the right to talk about Korean theater at the outside of South Korea. At the time I was hurt and I was sad. Even though I left 10 years ago, this colonial remnant is still going on in our contemporary society.
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| 24 Sep 2024 | Ep. 30 - Game Changer (2016) | 00:22:21 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Dana Gingras of Animals of Distinction. Show Notes Gabrielle and Dana discuss:
About Dana Gingras and Animals of Distinction Animals of Distinction (AOD) is the multimedia dance company of renowned choreographer and dancer Dana Gingras. Through AOD, Gingras has fostered the creation of numerous cutting-edge works that have involved innovative collaborations across diverse mediums and artistic practices, all shaped by the possibilities of new technologies and cultural shifts. At the centre of the work is a belief that we can obtain critical knowledge from engagingwith the physical and emotional risks inherent to dance andmovement. It is through thebody and choreography that this element of risk can be employed to explore a vision ofthe world that is larger than our individual isolated experiences. The goal is to stimulateaudiences to become more aware of the elements ofcomplexity, connectivity, andcomplicity within our physical, social, and emotional lives. AOD’s work has been presented nationally and internationally across diverse platformsincluding live performance, film, design, visual art, and new media. In 2016,under thedirection of Gingras, AOD produced The Holy Body Tattoo’s last work, monumental(2005), with Godspeed You! BlackEmperor playing live. This expanded version of thepiece premiered at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre in Vancouver as part of the PuShFestival in January 2016. Since then, monumental has been performed at the AdelaideFestival in Australia, Montreal’s Place des Arts, Grand Théâtre du Québec, as part ofLuminato at The Hearn Generating Station in Toronto, the Edinburgh InternationalFestival in Scotland, BAM’s NEXT WAVE Festival in New York, theROMAEUROPAFestival in Italy, MONA FOMA in Tasmania, Australia and, mostrecently, at London’s Barbican Centre. In 2018 Gingras joined forces with group A, a Berlin-based Japanese avant-gradesynthwave duo, and Sonya Stefan, a Montreal-based media artist. Together, theycreated anOther—a hybrid production, with performance, installation, and a liveconcert. anOther premiered at Agora de la Danse and made its international debut atMONA FOMA in 2019. Free Fall/Chute Libre, her new immersive dance film, was created through a residency at the Société des Arts Technologiques (SAT). Using the Satosphère’s full-dome theatre, the work focuses on stimulating viewers’ senses in unexpected ways. In 2017 Dana Gingras/Animals of Distinction was granted a long-term residency at the Centre de Création O Vertigo (CCOV) in Montreal’s Place des Arts. Through this residency, Gingras/AOD produced a new large-scale work entitled FRONTERA with scenography by London based United Visual Artists and a live score by newly reformed Fly Pan Am. Recipient of support from the National Arts Centre’s National Creation Fund, FRONTERA premiered in Quebec City in November 2019 and has since been performed as a part of the Danse Danse season at Place des Arts in Montreal, at the Sydney Festival, Berlin’s CTM Festival, the PuSh Festival in Vancouver and at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa. Dana Gingras has collaborated with cultural icons like William Gibson and Jenny Holzer . Musical collaborators include underground legends like Godspeed You! Black Emperor, The Tindersticks , Warren Ellis of the Dirty Three , The Tiger Lillies , Roger Tellier-Craig (Fly Pan Am) , Le Révélateur , and Steven Severin of Siouxsie and the Banshees. Multimedia works have been co-created with 3D animator Josh Sherrett, with animators and programmers James Paterson and Amit Pitaru , and, for her work on Arcade Fire’s award-winning Sprawl II video , with directors William Morrison and Vincent Morriset. A registered non-profit society, The Animals of Distinction Arts Society is directed (in its activities and mandate) by artistic director Dana Gingras. AOD is produced and represented by international agent Sarah Rogers. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on ton the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:22 Gabrielle Martin 00:39 Gabrielle Martin 01:01 Gabrielle Martin 01:13 Gabrielle Martin 01:18 Dana Gingras 01:26 Gabrielle Martin 01:27 Gabrielle Martin 01:46 Gabrielle Martin 02:02 Dana Gingras 02:02 Dana Gingras 02:28 Dana Gingras 02:56 Dana Gingras 03:21 Gabrielle Martin 03:39 Dana Gingras 03:44 Gabrielle Martin 03:46 Dana Gingras 03:48 Gabrielle Martin 03:54 Dana Gingras 03:57 Dana Gingras 04:18 Dana Gingras 04:36 Dana Gingras 04:51 Gabrielle Martin 05:10 Gabrielle Martin 05:33 Gabrielle Martin 05:59 Dana Gingras 06:18 Gabrielle Martin 06:20 Gabrielle Martin 06:31 Dana Gingras 06:45 Dana Gingras 07:16 Gabrielle Martin 07:18 Gabrielle Martin 07:31 Dana Gingras 07:51 Dana Gingras 08:15 Dana Gingras 08:55 Dana Gingras 09:14 Dana Gingras 09:30 Dana Gingras 09:45 Gabrielle Martin 09:54 Dana Gingras 10:04 Dana Gingras 10:22 Dana Gingras 10:46 Gabrielle Martin 10:52 Gabrielle Martin 11:11 Gabrielle Martin 11:30 Dana Gingras 11:37 Dana Gingras 11:58 Dana Gingras 12:21 Dana Gingras 12:55 Dana Gingras 13:21 Dana Gingras 13:36 Dana Gingras 13:54 Dana Gingras 14:12 Gabrielle Martin 14:15 Gabrielle Martin 14:27 Gabrielle Martin 14:39 Dana Gingras 14:44 Dana Gingras 15:06 Dana Gingras 15:28 Dana Gingras 15:45 Gabrielle Martin 15:47 Dana Gingras 15:51 Dana Gingras 16:21 Gabrielle Martin 16:47 Dana Gingras 17:16 Dana Gingras 17:44 Dana Gingras 18:16 Dana Gingras 18:48 Dana Gingras 19:12 Gabrielle Martin 19:32 Dana Gingras 19:44 Dana Gingras 20:01 Dana Gingras 20:13 Dana Gingras 20:41 Dana Gingras 20:54 Dana Gingras 21:09 Ben Charland 21:17 Ben Charland 21:34 Ben Charland 21:53 | |||
| 13 Aug 2024 | Ep. 24 - The Ethos of Coexistence (2010) | 00:33:52 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Maiko Yamamoto and James Long, co-founders of Vancouver’s Theatre Replacement. Show Notes Gabrielle, Maiko and James discuss:
About Maiko Yamamoto Maiko Yamamoto is a Vancouver-based artist who creates new, experimental and intercultural works of performance. Many of these works are built through a career-long practice of collaboration and include theatre projects, public art works, and performance installations. In 2003, Maiko co-founded the Vancouver-based performance company, Theatre Replacement. For TR she has created over 20 new works, many of which have toured to festivals and venues around the world. These include: BIOBOXES: Artifiacting Human Experience, Yu-Fo, Train, Sexual Practices of the Japanese, Dress me up in your love, Town Choir, MINE and Best Life. She also curates and produces HOLD ON LET GO (formerly PushOFF), and in 2018 began a new project-based artist residency program for experimental makers, COLLIDER. In addition, Maiko teaches performance and mentors artists for a range of different companies and organizations, both in Canada and abroad. She has helped artists to develop new work through programs like MAKE, a residency initiative spearheaded by 4 arts organizations in Ireland, the National Theatre School of Canada’s Acting Program, Action Hero’s You Can Be My Wingman residency, and why not theatre’s ThisGen Fellowship. She also occasionally works as a curator and writes about performance for a variety of publications. She holds a BFA in Theatre from Simon Fraser University’s School for the Contemporary Arts and a Masters of Applied Arts in Visual Art from Emily Carr University of Art + Design. She’s currently working on a new work with longtime collaborator and friend, Veda Hille. Find out more about Maiko at: thelocalbubble.org About James Long James Long is a director, actor, writer and teacher whose creative practice occurs in a wide variety of interdisciplinary and collaborative contexts, including as a co-founding Artistic Director of Theatre Replacement (2003-2022) and as an independent artist working in live performance, community engaged practice and public art. James’s work has been presented across North America, Europe and Asia and includes Weetube, Footnote Number 12, Clark and I Somewhere in Connecticut, Town Criers, BioBoxes: Artifacting Human Experience, King Arthur’s Knight, How to Disappear Completely, Morko, Winners and Losers and others. In 2019, he and Maiko Yamamoto were awarded the Siminovitch prize for their work at Theatre Replacement and as freelance artists, and in 2016 he and Marcus Youssef were nominated for a Governor General’s Award for playwriting for Winners and Losers. Long graduated from Simon Fraser University’s Theatre Program in 2000 and received a Master’s in Urban Studies in 2018. He serves as the president of the organization that stewards Vancouver’s Russian Hall, a multi-purpose performance and gathering space, and is an assistant professor in Theatre and Performance at SFU’s School of Contemporary Arts. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:22 Gabrielle Martin 00:36 Gabrielle Martin 00:51 Gabrielle Martin 01:13 Gabrielle Martin 01:25 Gabrielle Martin 01:45 Gabrielle Martin 01:59 Gabrielle Martin 02:18 Gabrielle Martin 02:37 Maiko Yamamoto 03:01 Maiko Yamamoto 03:18 Maiko Yamamoto 03:34 Maiko Yamamoto 03:51 Maiko Yamamoto 04:08 Gabrielle Martin 04:16 Maiko Yamamoto 04:20 James Long 04:42 Maiko Yamamoto 04:49 James Long 05:00 James Long 05:11 Gabrielle Martin 05:24 Maiko Yamamoto 05:37 Maiko Yamamoto 05:55 Maiko Yamamoto 06:12 James Long 06:17 Maiko Yamamoto 06:20 Gabrielle Martin 06:40 Maiko Yamamoto 06:46 Maiko Yamamoto 07:01 James Long 07:23 Maiko Yamamoto 07:41 James Long 07:44 James Long 08:02 Maiko Yamamoto 08:09 James Long 08:10 Maiko Yamamoto 08:13 Maiko Yamamoto 08:28 Maiko Yamamoto 08:44 James Long 08:50 Gabrielle Martin 09:03 Maiko Yamamoto 09:09 Maiko Yamamoto 09:22 James Long 09:34 Maiko Yamamoto 09:40 James Long 09:53 Maiko Yamamoto 09:54 Maiko Yamamoto 10:14 James Long 10:18 James Long 10:31 James Long 10:55 Gabrielle Martin 11:05 Maiko Yamamoto 11:12 Gabrielle Martin 11:39 James Long 11:54 Maiko Yamamoto 12:07 James Long 12:09 James Long 12:29 James Long 12:45 James Long 12:52 James Long 13:14 James Long 13:27 James Long 13:50 James Long 14:08 Gabrielle Martin 14:16 James Long 14:17 Gabrielle Martin 14:18 James Long 14:20 Maiko Yamamoto 14:45 James Long 14:53 Maiko Yamamoto 14:56 James Long 14:59 James Long 15:15 James Long 15:23 James Long 15:39 Gabrielle Martin 15:41 James Long 15:43 Gabrielle Martin 15:51 James Long 15:53 Maiko Yamamoto 16:40 James Long 16:53 Gabrielle Martin 17:00 Maiko Yamamoto 17:10 James Long 17:16 Maiko Yamamoto 17:35 Maiko Yamamoto 17:50 Maiko Yamamoto 18:04 Gabrielle Martin 18:08 Maiko Yamamoto 18:24 Maiko Yamamoto 19:00 Maiko Yamamoto 19:30 Maiko Yamamoto 20:02 Maiko Yamamoto 20:22 Gabrielle Martin 20:33 Maiko Yamamoto 20:38 James Long 20:40 Maiko Yamamoto 20:55 James Long 21:05 James Long 21:15 James Long 21:29 Maiko Yamamoto 21:47 Gabrielle Martin 21:55 Gabrielle Martin 22:16 Gabrielle Martin 22:35 James Long 22:47 Gabrielle Martin 22:48 James Long 23:24 James Long 23:52 James Long 24:11 James Long 24:28 James Long 24:51 James Long 25:03 James Long 25:24 Gabrielle Martin 25:28 James Long 25:38 James Long 25:51 James Long 26:03 Gabrielle Martin 26:16 Maiko Yamamoto 26:33 Maiko Yamamoto 26:50 Maiko Yamamoto 27:09 Maiko Yamamoto 27:34 Gabrielle Martin 27:57 Maiko Yamamoto 28:20 Maiko Yamamoto 28:43 Maiko Yamamoto 29:06 Maiko Yamamoto 29:26 Maiko Yamamoto 29:55 James Long 30:05 James Long 30:16 James Long 30:32 James Long 30:49 James Long 30:59 James Long 31:11 James Long 31:21 James Long 31:42 Maiko Yamamoto 31:52 Ben Charland 32:47 Ben Charland 33:03 Ben Charland 33:22 | |||
| 16 Jan 2025 | Ep. 54 - Conjuring the Future (The Goldberg Variations) | 00:26:49 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Clayton Lee, who will be presenting The Goldberg Variations at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. Check out the show on January 30 at the Waterfront Theatre, supported by CMHC Granville Island. Show Notes Gabrielle and Clayton discuss:
About Clayton Lee Clayton Lee is a Canadian curator, producer, and performance artist. He is currently the Artistic Director of Fierce Festival in Birmingham, UK and, as part of the Living Room Collective, will be representing Canada at the 2025 Venice Biennale of Architecture. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Clayton joined the conversation from Toronto, on the traditional territory of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples and is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. We also acknowledge that Toronto is covered by Treaty 13 with the Mississaugas of the Credit. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights a future conjuring and adding texture to the conversation.
00:17 I'm speaking with Clayton Lee, artist behind the Goldberg Variations, which is being presented at the Push Festival January 30th, 2025. Through an unapologetic investigation of desire, power dynamics, and identity, Clayton Lee explores his childhood obsession with the professional wrestler Bill Goldberg and the impact it has had on his sexual and romantic history.
00:38 The perplexing crossroads between dominance, submission, heartbreak, and vulnerability are laid bare in this candid and thoroughly unconventional performance, where fantasies are both indulged and deconstructed.
00:50 Clayton Lee is a Canadian curator, producer, and performance artist. He is currently the Artistic Director of Fierce Festival in Birmingham, UK, and as part of the Living Room Collective will be representing Canada at the 2025 Venice Biennale of Architecture.
01:06 Here's my conversation with Clayton. A thrilling to be talking to you, thrilling to be part of the festival. Before we dive right into it, I would like to acknowledge that I'm on the stolen, ancestral, and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh.
01:29 And I think today it's important to acknowledge the recent passing of Murray Sinclair, the Anishinaabe Senator, and renowned Manitoba lawyer, who led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He passed on November 4th.
01:44 And he served as co-chair of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry of Manitoba and directed the pediatric cardiac surgery inquest into the deaths of 12 children at a Winnipeg hospital before taking the reins of the TRC, one of the...
02:00 important bodies in Canada's recent history, which released its final report in 2015. And his work with the TRC, well with his work, his conclusion was that residential schools amounted to a cultural genocide, or his conclusion with his collaborators.
02:19 And this conclusion, this document has reshaped Canadians' understanding of the government-run boarding schools that devastated generations of Indigenous communities. And I'd just like to share a quote from him.
02:32 We have described for you a mountain. We have shown you the path to the top. We call upon you to do the climbing. And Clayton, where are you joining this conversation from today? Well, normally I'd be in Birmingham, UK, but today I'm calling from Toronto, which is the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat, as well as the treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit.
02:59 Unlike many artists, you prefer to only perform the Goldberg gradations once during an engagement. So for example, you requested to perform only one show at the Push Festival. Why is that? Oh, there's so many reasons for that.
03:17 You know, I think the kind of major difference between the ways in which I approach making versus other folks is I identify as a performance artist. And whereas I think most of the folks in the festival or in the festival circuit come from theater or dance kind of lineages and theater and dance, you know, have this kind of tradition of repeatability, right?
03:39 Where they make the work and then they kind of repeat it over and over again, hopefully on tour or over multiple weeks in a single city. And I'm, you know, for any number of reasons, I've framed Goldberg, the Goldberg variations as kind of a one-off live encounter event.
03:58 What this means for me is one, that the work is never the same twice. So the work is always being built and added onto it's iterative process. I kind of vaguely shape the conceptual framework for the piece is box sculptor variations with his 30 variations.
04:18 And the idea is every time I perform, I add one or two new variations to the work. And I'm interested simultaneously in what it means to present large scale work and to think about the spectacle of the live encounter and how to do this in ways of, ways within scarcity mindsets, right?
04:39 Where we don't have ton of money, but how do we pull all our resources into a way that feels big and bold and, you know, more daring than a kind of two or three performance run could be. So I really throw all the excitement into one basket and do it.
04:59 in that way for this. The stakes are high. The stakes are high and I think that's the way I like to kind of frame it, right? I really think about this performance as a score that I've built and I have no idea how it'll work and then the minute the performance starts the roller coaster begins and you know you can't get off of it and whatever happens happens and that's the kind of level of chaos slash controlled chaos I really thrive in.
05:29 Yeah and I really and I think the audience can feel that too, right? Because it's this one-off thing. They are kind of learning and experiencing it at the same time as I am. It is super exciting and you use the element of surprise and one result of this can be audience members yourself or your collaborators and or collaborators faced with the unexpected.
05:51 What are your thoughts on care and consent in relation to your work given this kind of the unexpected? Yeah, I think consent, of course, is key in all cases. And care, I have a funny relationship with care in the context of live performance, right?
06:11 And there's an artist named Bruno Gio who talks about how care is often a strategy to kind of maintain the status quo, that if we're never unable to kind of feel discomfort, how do we actually find new ways of being, right?
06:25 Not to say I'm explicitly interested in kind of abandoning care or kind of rejecting it, but for me, the work is not just about care. And I think when you or the audience experiences it, you'll kind of see very quickly that that's not part of the work.
06:43 And simultaneously, I'm interested in this kind of question around how artists of color are positioned within contemporary performance, right? This kind of critical need for representation, but the kind of limits of it.
06:58 And what I mean by that is, artists of color are often meant to be the kind of spokesperson for their communities. They're kind of intersecting communities. And for me, I'm not interested in doing that at all.
07:10 What if we don't position ourselves as forces of good necessarily, but forces that are kind of complex and are asking these kind of tangly, often unethical, often problematic questions, right? And what if we make that the starting point of the work and go from there?
07:29 And then I think the other kind of conversation around consent is, and perhaps this goes back to this kind of fine distinction between dance theater and performance art, but I think audiences often forget that there is inherent agency in their role as an audience member, that they can get up whenever they want, that they can leave whenever they want, that if they're gonna talk during the performance,
07:49 no one's gonna really stop. There are kind of these kind of standard practices in place, but also who's gonna stop them, right? And actually, I'm interested. interested in the ways in which audience members can or cannot exercise their own agency in the performance, and I can invite that in, right?
08:10 When I, you know, said earlier about kind of creating the score, it's like the kind of audience is in a way co-creating it with me, and if they want to kind of respond in any number of ways, that's invited, right?
08:23 You know, there are elements, there are kind of lines I don't cross, like, you know, this is not explicitly, this works not by, you know, it's not whatever, whatever, but it is kind of pushing the boundaries quite intentionally around care and what it means to be, you know, problematic or not, and yeah.
08:43 Yeah, I appreciate what you say about discomfort. I think there's some discourse around the difference between emotional and psychological safety, and that's like, you know, without emotional discomfort, there's no, there's no growth.
08:58 There's no room for diversity of perspective and opinion either, because inevitably we'll be uncomfortable when confronted by really different perspectives. I've presented this work before to kind of somewhat controversial results.
09:19 And I think so often that's coming from a place of what are the audiences or the presenters expectations of me as an artist? Who do they think I am as an artist? What kind of work do they think I make and what kind of artists do they think I can be?
09:37 And actually this work, so much of this work is about dismantling them. And there is this kind of inherent tension of, oh, actually you expect me to do this, but I'm doing this instead, and therefore you feel uncomfortable.
09:48 But then for me, there's the kind of reflection that's kind of quite essential in that. It's like, why, yeah, what were you expecting of me? Where are those expectations coming from? And how do we actually seek to not just dismantle them, but actually add texture to the conversation?
10:06 It should never be as simple as this equals good, this equals bad. I think the current discourse, especially in kind of performance circles are so reductive and simplified in these ways. And actually, no, I reject this wholeheartedly.
10:23 And actually what happens when we play in that kind of gray area and indulge in it where possible. The Goldberg Variations is in part an examination of your own desire. To what extent is your own story the subject of your artistic projects?
10:39 Yeah, that's a good question. You know, this one is very much my quote unquote story, though I often kind of reject this notion of people telling their own story. So I'm simultaneously kind of disgusted by myself and kind of making this work.
10:57 And I think... kind of there are two kind of key differences for me in kind of making this right the kind of you know I first thought of the title and the kind of reason for the title maybe in 2017 so seven years ago um but I wasn't able to make it until two years ago right and the kind of distance I had then that kind of drove that kind of conversation and who I was you know when I first made this are kind of two very different people and that kind of distance was useful but simultaneously I think in thinking about this like one-off encounter or this kind of site responsive work I'm simultaneously interested in this work as an examination of my past but also this kind of present and future conjuring moment right where I really am using this project to think about who I am right now think about the distance between who I am right now and the kind of feelings I'm thinking about you know I was thinking about seven years ago also how do we how do I use this performance to actively reshape my life and how do I use this performance to you know indulge in communities and meet with people that I wouldn't normally meet with right and I think there's something there's something in this work that has actually changed the way I move through this world and one thing what I mean by that is this piece is asking a lot of the audience and also of the presenters right and it you know the kind of work I made when I was first starting it was very small scale I was afraid to kind of take up a space you know I used to travel with a work that was just my laptop right and this work is the kind of opposite of that but if there's something in the kind of conceit of this work and the subject matter that has given me permission to actually ask for things of what if you know as artists we're often so um willing to kind of reduce ourselves or shrink ourselves down to make to make ourselves palatable and easy to tour right so that we're not kind of causing uh what's the word causing labor on to kind of present presenters but actually for me it's this this work is interesting because it's asking what if I start insisting on things or asking for you know crazier crazier things right when I first conceived this work it's always through the lens of like what if I did this what if I did this and those are tied up with ambition desire uh and trying to kind of like wash off this feeling of like not not being able to be an artist or whatever that makes any sense like I think we're so often afraid of the kind of things that we want to be and this piece is a strategy for me to kind of step into that I don't know if I answered your question at all but oh yeah yeah you did um and that giving oneself permission to ask you know I think there's like fear that I would imagine those fear to be perceived as a demand artist,
13:59 but my experience in working with you in this dynamic is not that. And yeah, you can always ask and then it's up to whoever you're engaging with to do what they will with that request. Yeah. And I think a large part of my work, you know, I, my day job is in kind of curating and producing, right?
14:18 Um, so I love kind of working within organizational or institutional frameworks to see what the kind of possibilities are. You know, we think of these spaces as so stagnant and immovable, but actually I'm in part using this work to think about how I relate to these institutions as an artist and using this work to in bigger or small ways shift the ways in which these institutions or organizations work.
14:44 You know, when I did, I was in residency with this piece at the Art Gallery of Ontario for three months and, you know, we had three meetings going back and forth of whether or not I was allowed to use the word faggot into the gallery space.
14:56 And for me, It's with a lot of labor on my part to kind of have those conversations, but it's simultaneously thrilling of like, why can't we use that word? Why can't I use that word in this context? And to not ever, I never approach these things with a kind of certain resolve, but as a kind of opening of, again, what if we do this?
15:16 What is actually allowed? What isn't allowed? Why isn't allowed? And let's get to the very end of that. And if, you know, I'm not allowed to say the word faggot in the context of the art gallery, then that's fine.
15:26 But actually, then we have this conversation and it feels, to me, both funny and potentially, or having the capacity rather to break things open. Right? It's not, for me, it's never just about the word faggot in the fact, it's about what do these conversations break open and allow ourselves to accept as new ways of thinking or working.
15:53 I want to step back to your mention of conjuring future, future conjuring. Can we talk about the content of some of the past iterations of this work? Oh, yes. What to say, what to say. I mean, we'll cut this after if you want me to say this, but the fact that you got married in one of the iterations, talk about future conjuring.
16:19 Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, so I'm just trying to think. Yeah, absolutely. This kind of thing of how does this work meet my current moment, right? And, you know, the kind of coyness of so I got married as the finale for my art gallery of Ontario performance.
16:35 And there's this kind of funny thing of recognizing the context where, you know, the art gallery of Ontario often rents its space out for weddings and is famously one of the most expensive venues in the city.
16:45 So how funny would it be if I made them pay for my wedding and did as part of it again. Also, you know, this work is about desire and love and romance and the feelings that come with it. Right. And this kind of funny thing of aligning where I was in my life, i.e.
17:03 I guess about to get married, which is something I also never thought I'd do, but making it part of this conversation felt interesting, you know, and the version. Again, I don't know if we'll keep any of this, but I'll defer to you.
17:16 You know, one of the iteration that you saw on Montreal was there was an extended section where I went in search of a stripper that was really obsessed with. Right. And I spent, you know, dozens and dozens of hours getting in touch with him and trying to find him and, you know, and, you know, and you did.
17:35 Well, I did find him, but he never actually showed up. Okay. I hired him. Another variation. But there's something in this, this thing of like, actually, again, the question is what if I invite this stripper I'm obsessed with into the performance.
17:52 Right. And what happens if I get to meet him? Right. And all these things of Yeah, seeing these kind of questions through to their end. And it's a way for me to kind of find new communities or find new friends or find new collaborators, which otherwise I wouldn't have ever worked with, right?
18:12 I mean, as an example, the New York version, I had the initial... I had this funny dream of like, oh, what if Philip Glass performed in the show? Right? Because I was performing at NYU Skirball, and the year earlier they presented The Tower of Glass by Philip Glass.
18:28 So I was like, oh, what if Philip Glass performed? And then, of course, he wasn't available or, you know, was quite sick and not performing anymore. So then I went down the list of like, oh, who are these other big name composers that I could work with?
18:40 And then eventually landing on or getting to meet Adam Tenler, who performed at last year's push and meeting him through this kind of funny path. And, you know, I, you know, adored him and was so happy to have met him through this performance.
18:52 But otherwise would never have met him, right? So this thing of like, I'm so... Can I use this work as a strategy to kind of reach the kind of tentacles out, right? And find new collaborators and find new friends and all these things of...
19:09 I don't know what will happen when I start a process. But at the end, it's like, oh, there's something really generative about being able to kind of reach out or reach in or whatever and see what happens.
19:19 You've been speaking about how this work involves with every performance, every variation, and the project you're collaborating on for the 2025 Venice Biennale of Architecture. What's the name of this project you're doing?
19:33 We're called the Living Room Collective, but we're currently finalizing the title. Okay, okay. That, you know, these are just examples that reflect explorations of different forms for you from developing sense to design and architecture.
19:50 What context are you currently playing with or contexts? Yeah. You know, I think... I think what I've noticed about myself is the real desire to bounce around in context to context. And I think what I mean by that is like my mother worked at IBM for like 40 years or something.
20:10 And I think that has had such kind of profound impact on my life where I was like, Oh my God, I can't imagine working for the same company for that long. So I think throughout my kind of practice slash vocal career, you know, I find myself bouncing around and dipping my toes into new contexts.
20:28 You know, I started off in theatre, then performance art happened or whatever, and then dance and all these kinds of things. And I'm really interested in the ways in which each context has various ways of moving through the world.
20:47 Right. The language of dance is different than language theatre. The language of theatre is different than language performance art. But then what happens when you kind of expand that outward? and reach out into new communities.
20:59 So for the Venice Biennale of architecture, I worked with an architect for Rhubarb when I was a festival director there two years ago. And now we're doing the Canada Pavilion with other collaborators.
21:09 And for me, it's this kind of very strange toe-dipping experience into the world of architecture where half the meetings I'm in, I'm just googling things on the side because I don't understand what's happening.
21:22 But there's also something really luxurious in being able to do that, to kind of bring my own lens and bring my own perspective into these conversations and simultaneously let those conversations influence the ways in which I do things, right?
21:38 And I'm, you know, with this project that has me meeting with a lot of different contexts. So, you know, folks from the classical music world, DJs, bodybuilders, wrestlers, all these kinds of folks. And there's something quite intentional about the strategy that I've employed, where I'm interested in what it means to spend time with folks that aren't directly in what I would identify as my community,
22:04 right? And what happens when you spend time with bodybuilders? What happens when you spend time with wrestlers? And I think we are so obsessed with, you know, we kind of exist in such an echo chamber, right?
22:19 We're in our own community and we're so happy to kind of stick within it. But I think there's something valuable in spending time with folks that are not like us at all. And to do so, you know, of course, with the lens of criticality, but to do so with as little judgment as possible, or not even judgment, because I judge, you know, whatever, but like with a kind of openness that is so frowned upon,
22:47 right? Because we're in a moment that loves to, yeah, immediately kind of reduce or deny or reject because of who they present. as but actually what if we say no to that and spend time with folks that we either may think are quote unquote problematic and yes they may be problematic but actually there are like always is more to them than we kind of uh first assume uh so like right now i'm obsessed with my home gym in birmingham um and like and slowly befriending everyone there and you know it's just kind of very strange experience where you know the gym owner it's Ultimate Fitness Birmingham if anyone wants to google this but you know we're the gym owner eventually you know photograph one of the events that fierce where i work right and this this very strange mixing is so um so compelling to me of what happens when we attempt to step outside of these kind of boxes that we create for ourselves and find new ways of moving and living thank you so much Clayton I am,
23:49 this is the beginning of my day. I am feeling inspired. I am feeling thought-provoked. I'm feeling so excited to have you at the festival. I'm feeling so excited for audiences that don't, and myself, who don't know what we're gonna experience when we walk into the venue.
24:08 Yeah, I'm so thrilled that you're gonna be present for the festival and sharing your work. Just to say to the audience, if audiences are listening to this before, I really invite them to kind of talk to me after, if the kind of work has provoked or ignited or whatever.
24:26 Because I think the conversation that kind of accompanies the work is such a critical part of it. And I generally, I mean, I hate doing panels or whatever, whatever, but it's like, actually, how do we continue this work beyond?
24:42 And how does the prickliness of the thing kind of resonate with folks? Yeah, so folks can reach out to me, message me on Instagram, whatever, whatever, I'm happy to. Yeah, have the conversation in those ways, because I think it's part of the process, so.
24:59 Great, and there'll be a chat with you after the show as well. Oh, is there? Yeah, I think so. Oh, cool. Do we know who's doing it yet? I had some ideas. We'll chat about it. Okay, okay. So, okay, for the audience, there may or may not be about a show.
25:13 No, no, I love a post-show Q&A. Okay, there'll be a post-show Q&A. Okay, okay. All right, thanks, Clayton. That was the Goldberg Variations Clayton Lee in conversation with Gabrielle Martin. The Goldberg Variations will show at the Waterfront Theatre on January 30th for one night only during the 2025 Push International Performing Arts Festival.
25:39 Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and the lovely Ben Charlam. Original music by Joseph Kiribayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts.
25:53 This year marks the 20th festival for Push International Performing Arts Festival. If you'd like to explore more of Push over the last 20 years, please look for our special 20th anniversary retrospective Push Play season.
26:05 And for more information on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media.
26:20 Coming up on the next Push Play. So as human, as we belong to some history, we belong to some narratives, and we wanted to bring those narratives on stage with us. So it's not just Joseph coming to, you know, to play some things that have been experiencing.
26:38 No, I also want to come with all my context with all the politics around me.
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| 26 Dec 2024 | Ep. 48 - Seeing Double (A Wake of Vultures) | 00:47:56 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Nancy Tam, Daniel O’Shea, Conor Wylie of A Wake of Vultures. They are presenting two shows at the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival: K Body and Mind and Walking at Night by Myself. Both will be at the Scotiabank Dance Centre as a double feature on February 1 and 2. Show Notes Gabrielle, Nancy, Daniel and Conor discuss:
About A Wake of Vultures Formed in 2013, A Wake of Vultures (WOV) is a project-based interdisciplinary performance company. WOV is a research, development, and producing vehicle for the works of its three members: Nancy Tam (music, sound design, theatre), Daniel O’Shea (film, theatre), and Conor Wylie (theatre). Switching between individual and collective project leadership, we connect with local, national, and international communities through collaboration and touring. We began collaborating and bonding as friends over our shared fascination in social rituals, science fiction, anime, and questions of reality and perception. We follow our idiosyncratic curiosities, blending low-brow inspirations with high-concept ideas, creating bizarre convergences that propose hybrid visions of the future. Our work is marked by formal detachment, ritual, unstable perspectives, and a blend of retro and new technologies, taking diverse forms like audio walks, performative installations, and plays. WOV has been presented in Canada, the US, Germany, and Hong Kong. Individually, we are freelance artists thriving inside Vancouver’s independent performance scene through fruitful and ongoing collaborations with Fight with a Stick, Theatre Replacement, Music on Main, Plastic Orchid Factory, MACHiNENOiSY, Radix Theatre, Justine Chambers, Rob Kitsos, Playwrights Theatre Centre, rice&beans theatre, Remy Siu, and many others. Each collaboration provides us with new methodologies, skills, and vocabularies to bring back to A Wake of Vultures. In many ways, we three are hybrid people: we practice a variety of artistic disciplines; we come from a mix of settler backgrounds (Europe + Asia); we have differing relationships to gender and queerness. These notions of identity inform our work, but don’t define it. We prefer to live in the margins. It is natural to us that many of our collaborators come from marginalized or underrepresented communities, with regards to race, queerness, gender, and disability; we value collaborations with artists who are critical, interdisciplinary, and intercultural in their mindsets. WOV is an ongoing, evolving collaboration bonded by an intense friendship: we eat together, dance together, work together. Conor Wylie Conor Wylie is a performer, writer, and director creating experimental theatre. He lives and works in Vancouver, BC, located on the unceded, ancestral, and occupied traditional lands of the Coast Salish peoples, including the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), and Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) nations. Conor regularly collaborates with Theatre Replacement, where he is an artistic associate, as well as with many members of Vancouver’s esteemed Progress Lab consortium. In recent years, science-fiction and videogame aesthetics have figured prominently in his works. He co-wrote and performed Visitors from Far Away to the State Machine with Hong Kong Exile, about two aliens on an erotic honeymoon to Earth, performed live on webcams and featuring animations inspired by several generations of videogame graphics. He also collaborated on Theatre Replacement’s MINE, a cinematic performance investigating mythical, pop-culture, and personal stories of mothers and sons, performed in the sandbox videogame Minecraft. His works have played across Canada at the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, The Cultch, Music on Main, Vancouver Art Gallery (Vancouver), Uno Festival (Victoria), Summerworks (Toronto), and the Magnetic North Theatre Festival (Yukon), and toured around Iceland, the UK, and Hong Kong. In 2017, he was selected for the Vancouver Mayor’s Arts Award for Emerging Theatre Artist by Marcus Youssef. In 2019, he was chosen as the Siminovitch Prize Protégé by his dear mentors James Long and Maiko Yamamoto. In 2022, he was named Best Director of a Canadian Feature by the Vancouver Asian Film Festival for his work on K BODY AND MIND. Daniel O’Shea Daniel O’Shea makes theatre, designs projections, and creates films, using technology and design as a keystone to support narrative and deepen dramaturgy. In his own works PKD Workshow (2013) and Are we not drawn onward to new era (2018), Daniel employs a low-fi DYI aesthetic, exposing the guts of the performance machinery in parallel to the convoluting the ideas spectating. In 2020 he completed his first feature length film collaboration centred around pre-extradition bill Hong Kong. His work focuses on states of presence, unbalancing audienceship and novel constructions of light through design and new media. Daniel’s artistic research has explored the ephemeral nature of a ‘self’, interruptions of technology on human processes, and the results cognitive dissonance. Daniel’s work has been seen in Canada and internationally. Daniel is engaged with Vancouver’s thriving contemporary performance scene and often engages in crossover with indie film and the digital arts. Nancy Tam Nancy is a sound artist who works and lives as an uninvited guest on the unceded territories of the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh, Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh Nations. Her work fuses sound and performance as primary mediums for the collaborative devising of interdisciplinary performances. Nancy is a founding member of the interdisciplinary performance collective A Wake of Vultures as well as the Toronto-based Toy Piano Composers collective. As a performance maker, Nancy works closely with Fight With A Stick performance company, having devised and collaborated on the Critic’s Choice Award winning show Revolutions in 2017. Her compositions, performances, and collaborations have toured in Germany, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, the U.S. and throughout Canada. An excerpt of her latest multi-media composition Walking at Night by Myself will be touring to Hong Kong in April 2019. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:01 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights old school magic, sci-fi prayers, hybridity, and more.
00:18 I'm speaking with Dan, Connor, and Nancy, the artists behind Seeing Double, which is being presented at the Push Festival, February 1st and 2nd, 2025. Seeing Double plays tribute to spooky late night double features with two performances that push pulpy cinematic genres into uncharted conceptual territories.
00:38 Stripping the psychological horror genre down to its bare bones, walking at night by myself undermines the reliability of perception in an audiovisual blitz of surround sound and vivid optical illusion.
00:51 K-Body and Mind is a cyberpunk odyssey channeled through a multimedia experience that reflects on tech-assisted immortality. Nancy Tam experiments with form and practices, dramaturgy to create immersive sonic designs and environmental performances for onstage and on-screen media.
01:09 Her research triangulates between sound, space, and body to examine the uncanny valley of haptics. She was a featured artist at Prague Quadrennial, 2023 for the Canadian Exhibition. Daniel O'Shea makes theater, designs projections, and creates films using technology and design as a keystone to support narrative and deepen dramaturgy.
01:32 Daniel employs a low-fi DIY aesthetic exposing the guts of the performance machinery in parallel to convoluting the idea of spectating. Connor Wiley performs, writes, and directs experimental plays, films, and video games, employing devised and collaborative processes to create fresh and unusual worlds.
01:50 He uses the science fiction genre to explore cultural and societal stories of grief, hope, and transformation. Here is my conversation with Dan, Connor, and Nancy. I just heard that this is the first time you've been in the same room in months.
02:07 It's true. We've just been kind of off in our own little avenues and projects, so getting back together is like a lot of energy, a lot of catching up, a lot of silliness that's working its way out. This is how vultures, the creatures are, right?
02:30 Like they fly off their solo and then they flock when there's something to eat. We're here for the ride of the reunion, the reunion special. Back together at last, now to Dan and Connor. I will just acknowledge that we are all in this conversation on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh.
02:58 I'm a settler here and it's my responsibility to continue thinking and educating myself on the history and the ongoing effects of colonization. And that looks like different things, different days. And today it's a reflection on inspired by Malcolm Ferdinand's Decolonial Ecologies, where he talks about this colonial and environmental double fracture of modernity.
03:22 So referring to how humans have institutionalized hierarchies of white humans over non-whites and humans over nature, allowing the extractivism of colonization and nature and the exploitation of nature.
03:32 And that the climate crisis really can't be addressed without connecting the environmental movement with the anti-colonial movement. Great book, recommend it. And it's definitely some important thinking shared within it.
03:47 So I'm going to jump right into some questions about wake of vultures for people who don't know. So wake of vultures is a project based interdisciplinary performance company formed in 2013. It's a research development and producing vehicle for the three of you who began bonding over a shared fascination in social rituals, science fiction, anime, and questions of reality and perception.
04:13 So to be together for over 10 years beyond shared fascinations, what is the secret? What is the glue? Is it like this perfect balance of astrological signs or something more pragmatic? The glue is actually just friendship and pleasure in each other and deep, kind of profound interest in each other and how we think and how we engage with the world.
04:41 And yeah, I think that more than anything has kind of seen us through the space in between projects and the hard times inside of projects and yeah, all the kind of bumpiness that can come with. creative partnerships.
05:00 I totally agree with that. And I think like, you know, sometimes when you think about artistic partnerships or working partnerships that are built in friendships or like romantic relationships and stuff like that, like that can also be a bit combustible, right?
05:14 It's not always, you know, conducive to a professional environment. But I think what we have going also is that we have treated this as a long term relationship, you know, like we've helped each other to account.
05:28 We've been, you know, we've taken time to, you know, take a retreat and really talk things through and get on the same page and not kind of like coast through. So it's taken a lot of, you know, work that comes from that like loving friendship.
05:43 Yeah, I think also, like, the bond and the friendship that we share seeps into our working relationship in such a way that organizationally, we each will take leadership in various ways, in macro and micro ways.
06:03 So, and by that, I mean like, macroly speaking, for example, like I led Walking at Night by Myself, Connor led K Body and Mind, and then, you know, Dan will lead another project. And it's not like a schedule thing.
06:20 And in fact, we kind of watch out for one another and go like, hey man, like, it's been kind of, you know, two out of three, like we've been doing a lot of leadership. Like, let's, let's like how, it's not so much like, now it's your turn to do something.
06:34 It's more like, how do we help like bring something together that then someone else can lead? And that kind of generosity is driven by love and friendship. And then in micro ways, like I think the ways that we drive the design led process is very much reliant on the trust that we have in each other and the respect that we have for the expertise in the room, where, you know, it's not like everyone needs to chime in all the time to make a decision.
07:09 You know, it's like, oh, this, like whatever, you know, maybe it's like a filmic thing or setting up a shot. It's like, I don't, I don't really need to say anything. Like I do trust like Dan and his eye and what he's got going on, you know?
07:24 And so there's a lot of that where I think perhaps sets us apart from what traditional or conventional ideas of devised theater or devised organization work that like I've always seen it as like a rolling triangle of leadership and rolling triangle is really like admitting to that there is hierarchies, but it is always evolving and it is always emergent and it is held by each other.
07:55 and how by the trust and love that we are able to keep that rolling going on. And just, there perhaps is an astrological component. Oh. Because. Finally. I think the real heart here. A mutual friend of ours is very knowledgeable in this kind of stuff.
08:21 And when he learned about our birthdays, he was like, Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. Because apparently each of us is like the young element of our like element family. You can really see how much I know.
08:43 Go on. So as a, as a cancer, I'm like a young water sign. And as this is a real test. Yeah. As an Aries. Connor is a young fire sign. Yes. And as a. No, Jesus. When's my birthday, Dan? As a Gemini, Gemini.
09:08 Yeah, obviously. So Gemini of you right there. Nancy is a young air sign. And so even though we are all different in our elements, we are kind of connected in this whatever it means to be a young. Thing, you know, that resonates.
09:30 Beautiful. We're just three young things. I would love to actually just circle back to what you said, Nancy, about design led process. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure. And like you'll chime in as well.
09:48 What I what I think is a design led process is informed by my experience with other companies as well. But within this constellation, my practice based in performance making with a huge component of it under the lens of sound design and and Daniel with his, you know, performance practice and composition practice like but under the lens of visual design and for Connor narrative design, it is really like thinking around like form and content working together rather than going like a straight route of like first we have a script and then we design for it.
10:37 So a lot of our processes will actually come from a different realized design elements such as sound design, such as projection design. And then we develop other elements around it, so that's what I mean by design-led process.
10:59 What are you guys? And sometimes it can be processes curious about a kind of effect in the audience or like a gag or a trick or some, yeah, some kind of phenomenon that we're interested in manifesting.
11:16 And then in exploring, okay, well, what are the ways that we can create this? Like, can we create this sonically? Can it happen through the staging? Can it happen through the narrative or the character or dialogue or something like that?
11:29 Finding all these ways to like, get at the same audience experience and then having, taking all of those and then forming a show and linking them together into, okay, how do we craft that experience?
11:43 So PKD work show function somewhere like that about, trying to structure the audience's perception of what layer of the show that they were engaging with, or walking definitely functions like that in terms of trying to activate a kind of perceptual landscape through all of these kind of tools and the design.
12:07 And the performance character of K-Body of Mine was very much like foundational before the narrative. And this kind of approach to take the structural elements and put them in first, and then trying to build a flesh around that kind of has led us to make, I don't know, what we think of it as like a different road to a show.
12:40 Dan, if you could give us just like a little synopsis or like a little background context on PKD Workshow since you mentioned it, like what is it? Oh, PKD Workshow was one of the first shows that we did together.
12:55 And the three of us, plus Sean. Yeah. Yeah. And that was interested in playing around with kind of layers of performance. So it had a kind of raw workshop layer put on top of it. And then as the workshop went on, it was revealed that actually a lot of things were rehearsed and a lot of things were prepared.
13:26 And so it played with, at what level am I really, at what level is the show being honest with me? And it was based around Philip K. Dick and his work, his science fiction work, and a lot of his like reality bending kind of pulpy DNA.
13:46 Yeah. I want to talk more about what, like, are there comments? So, your work is marked by formal detachment, ritual, and unstable perspectives, to name a few. Can you speak more to that? I think we all just have a kind of general aesthetic interest in trippiness, you know, in stuff that kind of bends your mind a bit.
14:10 And so, I guess that's the thing that I've been doing for many years in a lot of my projects, right? It's just like picking a kind of container that sort of maybe mischievously proposes that it's one thing, and then it inverts itself midway.
14:27 I think the unstable perspective, you know, that really speaks to PKD. I think it also speaks to K-body and mind, so does the formal detachment, in that the work itself is kind of a puzzle on the surface.
14:42 All the elements are kind of pulled apart. uh, you know, as you sort of like hear the sort of radio play, um, sound design and the voice acting, but then pair it with this kind of like disembodied robotic performance style.
14:59 Um, this detachment, um, causes you to kind of like fill in the blanks yourself, make a movie in your head. Um, and that was kind of inspired, you know, a long, a long time ago, the kind of formalism of Robert Wilson, um, or the minimalism of Richard Maxwell and the New York city players.
15:16 And I, and I know goes back further to, to Brecht and stuff like that too. So I think there's like some, some old school theater detachment that has always been interesting to me anyway. I don't know if there's more that you guys want to say about.
15:30 I think the, the ritual element in that, um, is often played out in how we exist in the rooms together when we're, we're making, um, there's, I don't know if it's a tendency or at this point, it's a conscious act, active, uh, drive, but we do tend to fall into rituals for any given project, whether it's, um, you know, arriving in a certain way or, um, you know, trying to manifest whatever values are feel appropriate for that project.
16:06 But, um, this, this sense of submitting to a kind of structure, a chosen, a chosen structure based on values and, and desired outcomes, it's like, um, yeah, I feel like we do become open to being what, what we need for to fulfill that, that ritual or that show, you know?
16:31 If I may elucidate a little bit though, like the ritual thing, right? Like this gets specific about it, right? Like there's all sorts of rituals that, you know, many, uh, rehearsal practices might have like a check-in or some kind of hunker at the end of the day to kind of let the day go and.
16:46 we kind of get interested in like making our own versions of that based on whatever thing we're working on. So in PKD work show, we had a little sci-fi prayer that we would do at the end of the day to kind of try to invoke the sort of spooky ghost of PKD in a way.
17:01 I'm remembering when we were making a short piece for Blink, which is an event that Leaky Heaven puts on every once in a while, you know, we had our notebooks full of like one minute performances that we were gonna do, you know, and we're like, okay, let's make a top five, you know, that would be a common ritual for people to do.
17:16 What's our top five here, you know? And then we were like, for fun, for ourselves. We were like, let's make a dark five also, you know? Like what are the five ones that would be really weird for us to do, you know, just as a thought experiment.
17:27 So, and then dark five has become like a, every once in a while and you're like, you need to get my bad ideas out. We'll just say it, move through it, find the next thing. So we kind of make these little custom rituals for ourselves and our processes, I think.
17:42 And I think like ritual too can be referred to in a philosophical like definition as well as like meaning making, right? Like you're imbuing a form with meaning. And I think like that word, you know, lends itself very well in theatrical practices and has been for a long, long, long, long, long time.
18:02 But I think for how it applies to us too is like, it's language making, it's vocabulary building, you know, we have all sorts of like having been friends and collaborators for like 10 plus years, like we just have so many short hands.
18:21 There have been like conversations where Dan and I will have by simply looking at each other. And we're like, okay, and like we don't realize and then people are like, well, but can you say it out loud?
18:33 Because we don't know what just happened. But like, you know, so the clarity of which are like, sometimes I'm that guy. And then sometimes this will happen. And then I'll be that guy, you know, and, and I think like the ritualizing of like, it can also be interpreted as, as just like building vocabulary and a language.
18:55 And I think that is probably experienced similarly with different groups that come together. And yeah, like, you know, trippiness or just like goofiness, I think there's also a lot of one upmanship of like, how do you like, spin a bit, you know, and usually those are the best, like gems that, you know, become part of or that, you know, has gone through so many iterations, then it loses goofiness,
19:28 but like, it be that little spark. And I think like, thinking around that, like, for, for walking, you know, one of those things, trying to break this, like, it's, in between of like a just like colored globes that are happening to like the rest of the show.
19:48 I'm like, okay, everybody, we're gonna, we're gonna just like make a joke in here. And then we found like a transition in between. So yeah, I think that like ritualizing or like meaning making slash like vocabulary building, it feels very much connected in the ways that we work.
20:09 Our work, I think looks like, will look pretty like, often looks pretty conceptually like serious, you know? Like, and we take it seriously, we build it seriously, but we also joke around and are really silly with each other.
20:24 Yeah, to make it. Walking at Night by Myself and Kay Body and Mind are two different company works that you have since realized are strange sisters and designed as a double feature. What makes these two works strange sisters?
20:38 Walking at Night by Myself as well as Kay Body and Mind feature. performers who are very similar in like the physical attributes, and then they are also dressed in like in the same uniform costumes. And this idea, this formal idea, as well as a design idea, actually came from K came from PKD workshop, which Daniel had brought up before.
21:10 And so I think like that has always been a through line. It feels like that's been like become like a company interest to to do like same, same, but different. Yeah, like some, some desire to have like a very dim room with people that look the same.
21:34 And you don't know who is who, or which is what, and, and how to like pin meaning or action or consequence on to either one that like the interchangeability of identity or something that I think works best on stage in person, because, you know, in film, you know, you can cut in between and you can have twins.
21:59 It's no, it's no problem, right? But there's just something trippy about seeing two people who look very similar and you can't quite pin down who's who it's like, oh, it's just an old school kind of magic trick.
22:10 And I mean, with K, that came from a place of like wanting to see if we can sort of separate your identity of who you are as a performer on stage from from who you're playing, which is like in a way an old clown kind of thing too.
22:26 But I think there's a certain trippiness that came out of the twinning in both of those shows that felt like they had resonance for each other. And then, you know, as is often the case for us, we like we because we love the long been and we love to like.
22:42 deep play and vocabulary building that like we've accrued like a great group of collaborators on this right and so um you know Jasmine Chen was in um because Walking Dead like multiple iterations of casts right you you Nancy was in it at one point and then Angie's always been in it and then once you wanted to step out of the work Jasmine stepped into the work so there was already a doubling of casting in between the two shows as well um and so it just felt like there's some interesting like identity conflation between the shows you know as you see Jasmine from one show to the next oh do you remember her as that last role into this new role um that feels like a resonance for me inside of those two works i think also like the all of these shows that we mentioned like really deal with like uh illusions as as a big part that drives the the work and um I think with walking,
23:42 I'm really, really trying to like go to the ends of that of like, okay, not only do you have like the two people who are dressed very similarly, now there is like illusions between or interactions of like the costumes and then also the projection, as well as you're in this, you know, immersive surround sound that also plays funny tricks on your ears as well and that whereas I think like, okay, it feels like you start off with like almost like two very different bodies or like two very different people because you also like see them both at the same time you see them like,
24:29 you know, like considering the rest of the show was like pretty bright light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then and then they start to come together, the identity starts to overlap, whereas like I think in walking is the opposite where you really propose, I really try to propose them as like one and the same and then through the length of the show that how do these characters or bodies individuate?
24:55 And so like, yeah, I just think like kind of the long game of asking these questions of like, who's who's who? When is this person themselves? When is it? When are they play? Are they playing? And when are they playing themselves?
25:14 Like those those questions become kind of eternally like fascinating in our work, just overall as our, you know, ongoing investigation. And there's like, there is, yeah, this duality, and this, the problematization of that duality, like walking at night by myself is the title.
25:35 And it features two, two people that look exactly the same. And so the question of like, which often comes up with people that see the show that they interpret like, okay, is this one person with two identity?
25:49 Is this two people walking together? Is one of them a shadow? Like all of these kind of questions in the way that Kay puts forward very straightforwardly that they're, you know, that sense of identity is split amongst all these bodies, and that one person can be another and that this, the whole collective project is about dispersing through the body and through these two bodies in this case.
26:21 So yeah, I think we just started to see all of the parallels and the casting and the thematic material and really thought something interesting could happen when both these play together and they start having a resonance with each other.
26:39 And we really wanted to find out like what is, was that kind of harmonic that these two create when they're back to back? Which will, and this scene double will premiere at Push 2025. That's right. Yeah, exciting.
26:54 I'm excited. Come experience the resonance. Let's also talk about the place of futurism and retro in your work, as terms that are referred to in how you describe key themes or aesthetic interests. This one, we're probably gonna be riffing quite a bit, but there's a big through line through all of our interests, which is like science fiction, speculative kind of fiction, a curiosity in the kind of near edge of what can be,
27:32 what is possible and kind of where things are going. In a way, it feels like we already live in the future with the kind of technological changes that we've kind of seen in our lifetime, but that kind of profound interest in what is possible.
27:54 As we work in that kind of like contemporary performance sphere and are incorporating technologies into our work, sometimes it feels like there's always a push to like use new software, use the newest tools, the like whatever's available to you.
28:07 And I definitely noticed with you, Dan, you're often like wiring things yourself, right? You're using old fluorescent tubes. We're doing a kind of like custom build thing that feels like there's so much interesting like design work that can be done using these old technologies in a different kind of way rather than always adopting the latest, which we do also, right?
28:31 We are using new technologies, but like just having this blend, I don't know, allows you to have like a certain. criticality or like allows you to like expose the machine as part of the work. Whereas sometimes, you know, it's just like a projector off stage is like meant to be kind of invisible.
28:48 And if you just, you know, viewing the product of what's happening, you know, like, I like that we often see the like, the guts of the machinery inside of it. It's another maybe detachment that happens, right?
28:58 When you see how it's made or whatever, that feels like, I don't know, at least distinctive about your visual aesthetic, your design aesthetic. This idea of futurism is like, it's so broad. And it also feels, I don't know, I've been just like, kind of thinking and reading Donna Haraway's work and thinking around like ideas like post humanist.
29:21 And like, obviously, we also encounter that and K body of mine. And yeah, I have like such complicated mixed meanings about the like, of the word because it feels like it's like, you know, some somewhere out there.
29:37 you know, whereas I think like the mix of like, as Connor said, like the technique and also the concept kind of like reveals like that all of our constructions conceptual and are practical or fallible and makes it more human actually and makes it more relatable and more of now.
29:56 And it's way more closely a reflection which, you know, sci-fi is a genre plays with anyhow. Like, you know, it puts a far off of the future. It puts it off world as a reflection of what is actually happening.
30:12 So I think in that way, both of these shows kind of do that and very abstracted maybe like somewhat distance ways. And then another thing that kind of I thought of is that for my own interests anyhow, I'm always really interested in like, or not, well, I don't know if it's interest, but this response to like, you know, everything has already been made, you know, this idea of like, there's nothing new anymore.
30:41 There's no originality anymore. Or like, you know, my response to it personally is just like, well, okay, well, if that is true, say if that is true, then like the newness is in the combination thereof.
30:56 And in the little Venn diagram piece where, you know, two old things are touching. So I think in the ways that we consider like the play between like retro or lo-fi or DIY and like, you know, heady concepts or futurism or post-modernism or post-humanism is actually just getting us to look at this like Venn diagram of different things that have already, that are existing.
31:29 Right, and I think that comes from, for myself anyway, it's like, have always, had to be this way, because I'm a sound artist, but I also am a theater maker. And I'm always borrowing grammar and methodologies and creation devices from both of these disciplines to making work.
31:56 So by just existing, it has to be a hybridity of these things. And to create, then, a new thing and a third, or a conceptual or philosophical third, which conceptually, walking at night by myself, really try to deal with that, but in a phenomenological way of how do you have one pattern and another pattern, just simply by existing together, create something new, something emergent and something spontaneous and almost,
32:34 yeah, like unrepeatable. That resonates for me inside of like, inside of K body and mind in that, you know, I don't think, yeah, I don't think I was trying to predict the future or, you know, or a future I'd it's a, you know, it's a very imagined world.
32:54 But, you know, it was a combination of it was the like excitement of trying to combine like, really, some of this like old school theatrical minimalism technique that I was like, I want to see if I could push that to the edge by like, doing it in a cyberpunk genre, right?
33:10 Like doing the matrix doing that ghost and ghost in the shell. These kinds of like super maximalist stories to really like push your imagination to the to the to the edge. Like that was the that was the jumping off point, right?
33:23 Was this like looking back. And I think, you know, as we went along, like, I remember a moment when we were working, we were, I was working with Leah Weinstein, who's the costume designer. And, you know, the first draft of the costumes, as I had kind of proposed, with these like sleek black costumes with these neon stripes had a real like Tron vibe, you know, and I was like, Oh, it like the show sounds cyberpunk,
33:54 and the story is cyberpunk. And now it looks cyberpunk. And somehow I was like, it's not, it's not right. It's not doing it because they're like, the sort of like neon cyberpunk aesthetic was already playing out in a super nostalgic way on Netflix or in you know, like altered carbon was had just sort of come out and like altered carbon is another show that I was like, Oh, you know, this is like actually a similar premise to what we have going on here,
34:18 except I really didn't like I really didn't like the approach of it. I didn't like the economics of it. I didn't like what it had to say about the future, you know, so that made me kind of go like, oh, I have to like actually disrupt the visuals and reach further back to imagine the future.
34:34 And so we ended up landing on a kind of kind of more Tarkovsky in. You're like a solaric. Exactly, yeah. Solaris vibe that was like cozier and softer. And I think that really played out in how it was filmed as well.
34:50 And the lighting and everything, the color palette that we chose, that there was like, yeah, a certain looking back. And what I guess felt like in those aesthetics, a kind of like optimism of the future that just felt so like lush and warm and we were going to be cozy, that ended up finding its way also into the story of the world as well too.
35:17 I didn't want to find this like, this cyberpunk dystopianism of living in these oppressive, realienating cities. It was like, and this, I mean, we live in, You know, some somewhat cyberpunk-y looking world now, you know, but it was like, oh, wait, no, what did these people who are living in this near future?
35:41 What do they actually dream of, you know, and can they actually try to actualize their ideal society? Not easily, you know, it's not it's not a utopia, you know, but like, what if we earnestly tried to make this better future?
36:01 Instead of, you know, creatively just, you know, saying, oh, yeah, no, corporations are going to control everything. And, you know, like, I had to pull myself, you know, out of the kind of nihilism or, you know, inevitability of.
36:18 Yeah. Yeah. Dream a little. Yeah, totally. And you referenced the film. So I wanted to chat about that a bit because cave body and mind had an iterative creation process created for the stage first, then turned into a film during the pandemic.
36:33 And now its final iteration integrates digital and live representation of the characters on the same stage. And so can you talk about what each layer of this development contributed with regard to or in terms of how form affected the dramaturgy of the work and what affect this integration of video and performance creates now?
36:53 Yeah, probably not succinctly. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, we, you know, we theater replacement supported this project in the beginning through through their Collider program, which is the sort of project based residency.
37:07 And so we made a 20 minute version, which is effectively the like the bones of like chapter one. And the whole intention was to make it a live show. But there was a moment after we had finished performing that version where we, you know, we didn't make documentation of it.
37:26 And and so we shot it and very like we were instantly kind of like, oh, while the like, the kind of like glitch aesthetics of how the performers are performing and how all these layers come together actually lends itself really well to being on screen.
37:42 And so I put it in the back of my hand that I was like, okay, one day after we're finished this, maybe I'll make a web series or something like that. And then the pandemic came and we, you know, could no longer do the live premiere that we were slated for.
37:55 And so it just became very clear right away that, okay, now we gotta, we gotta shoot it. And, you know, we had discussed like live streams and stuff like that. And, you know, I knew that, you know, having, you know, witnessed live streams happening all the time, the kind of like video and audio compression of the internet and stream, you know, it was like, it was not the way to represent the kind of like intricate design work that,
38:20 you know, underpinned the show. So, and, you know, it just so happened that I had an amazing sound designer and a filmmaker. already on the team that understood the dramaturgy from, you know, the inside out.
38:33 And so it just became very clear that it was like, okay, no, we'll film it. And then we'll release it for streaming. And, you know, as you were saying Nan earlier about, you know, just turning over, you know, trust to each other.
38:49 Really it was like, Dan put the whole shot list together. Dan really like directed the filming of the project. And so we had that online release. And then when it finally came time to bring it back live, I think part of the iteration was like, man, we did so much work on that film and it's awesome.
39:13 And I don't want to throw that away. It doesn't make sense anymore in the iterative process of this thing to just like to throw that away and take it all the way back to the stage. And that's when we kind of, I think came up with the notion of the hybrid, the hybrid viewing.
39:31 And, you know, the work is already such a puzzle of layers. You know, the choreography is telling you one story. The lights are telling you another story that the voice and the text are telling you something.
39:42 The sound is telling you something. And then having that extra layer of film and having the performers doubled in front of the film is just one more opportunity for us to like make this show feel like it's calibrating itself.
39:57 It's trying to, you know, it's trying to give you the unified vision. It's working towards it, but the machine is falling apart because it's been invaded by this entity. And so it just became one extra layer inside of it that, you know, could, you know, just an extra level of the puzzle for you to figure out.
40:17 And an extra kind of layered towards the final manifestation not to spoil everything, but the emergence and the, and the, realization of the kind of the nascent entity, right? Slowly going through these mediated layers until arriving in a body that's doing what it's saying, how it's moving, and how it's being present, which is so much of the kind of emotional through line for that character.
40:54 And I think part of it too is like when, like from the very, very, very beginning, like even just the script itself, it's like written in such a way that's way more like a TV script, like the dialogue is like way more to like a TV or like a movie script than it is like a play script.
41:20 Yeah, that's true. So like that in itself lends so like it just lands so well when we saw it, it was like Well, yeah, that works. And knowing that it was this kind of like a radio play, wanted to make the sound design and the composition of it, the scoring, to be very much like a driver of action.
41:48 And narrative. And what is actually happening is contained in the sound. You can just kind of trust the sound more than you can trust what you're seeing on stage, I think. Right, right. And so when we see that combination on screen, you can kind of just sit back and follow.
42:09 And then it's not, I don't know, I've watched it like countless times. And I often will just kind of go like, whoa, but they're not actually moving. You can kind of just get into this ride. And then I think part of the company, I don't know, maybe aesthetic, maybe just like value is like, we like things to be very tight.
42:40 We like to be extremely precise. And we like to be really good at doing that. And when we were preparing for the live iteration and then for the filming, the two actors are acting live. I'm playing all of the sounds that you hear live.
43:05 And part of it was just like, well, I mean, yeah, we can show the film, but there is a kind of tightness that you only get when the stakes are higher, when you can see it happening. So that was kind of like part of the allure, I think, for us to go like, oh, how do we do that?
43:28 get it together. You know, um, and I don't know, I feel like with for us, it's like if there is a hard puzzle, it will probably try the ends of the earth to do it. I love what you said about this too, because I remember, you know, when we shot the when we shot the film, right, we shot runs of it, and then we shot took special individual shots of things, but like the bare bones of it are runs of the episodes,
43:54 you know. And it's like people don't know that when they watch the when they watch it on screen, right, they just assume that it's been shot like a TV show would usually be shot, right. And so you kind of like in the over the course of the performance, get to ask that question and have it answered, you know, you're like, is this how did they shoot this, you know, and then it's like, and then as they,
44:14 you know, as the farmers get more and more intricate into it, you're like, oh, oh, they can actually do it. Like they get really happens in front of you, you know, and it's a really interesting thing of like, watching these two people on the screen for as long as you do, and then seeing them in person, in front of you, there's just something kind of electric that happens about that, you know?
44:38 Yeah. Especially in that chapter two, where it is working with a kind of VHS logic. Yeah, right, right, right, yeah. Of the rewind and of the replay. And so, yeah, the logic of playing back a surveillance video on bodies actually moving through space in a forward in time, right?
45:03 Just makes that land even more about how they are subject to this kind of the force of the show or the pressure of the show to figure out what's going on and troubleshoot. And I think this relates to the earlier question of like, how is this like Strings Sisters or like, and why is it a double feature?
45:27 Because we like, we love cinema and we just love, we love watching TV and we love anime. And so both of these shows are kind of inspired by filmic genres and filmic tropes. Yeah, just like also another way that it lends itself to being a hybrid or like how, you know, something like kind of this mixing and muxing of on screen and on stage media.
45:57 Thank you. Well, I'm excited, obviously. Thanks, Gabriel. We're excited to be here too. But yeah, I really am grateful for you sharing and bringing us a little bit deeper into your process, your approach, how you work together and just, you know, dropping in some references that are really intriguing for those who haven't seen the work.
46:21 Get your popcorn in, come to the theater and get scared. Yeah, you're gonna get scared. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was Gabriel Martin's conversation with Nancy Tam, Daniel O'Shea, and Connor Wiley of Awake of Vultures.
46:43 Awake of Vultures will present a double feature at the PUSH International Performing Arts Festival supported by Do 604, K Body and Mind, and Walking at Night by Myself. You can take in both shows on the same night for a discount or purchase a single ticket to either work.
47:01 Both performances will be at the Scotiabank Dance Centre on February 1st and 2nd. I'm Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Trisha Knowles. Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi.
47:14 New episodes of PUSH Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the 2025 festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.
47:32 And on the next push play... I needed to be two or three simultaneously in the space. And then so I then I was like, wow, then pushing that idea besides and trying again to come back to create a solo.
47:46 And it was really persistent for weeks that I could not start a creation because I needed to be more than one.
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| 18 Dec 2023 | Ep. 12 - Inheritances: thematic collaboration | 00:41:48 | |
Adam Tendler discusses the unorthodox inspiration for his collaborative composition. Show Notes David Pay, Artistic Director of PuSh partner Music on Main, chats with Adam Tendler about Inheritances, which will be presented at the 2024 PuSh Festival from January 24-25 at Annex. Co-presented with Music on Main. David and Adam ask the following questions and more:
About Adam Tendler Adam Tendler is a recipient of the Lincoln Center Award for Emerging Artists and the 2022 Yvar Mikhashoff Prize. He has been called “currently the hottest pianist on the American contemporary classical scene” (Minneapolis Star Tribune), a “remarkable and insightful musician” (LA Times), and a “relentlessly adventurous pianist” (The Washington Post) “joyfully rocking out at his keyboard” (The New York Times). A pioneer of DIY culture in classical music, at age 23 Tendler performed solo recitals in all fifty states in a grassroots tour that was later the subject of his acclaimed coming-out memoir, 88×50. He has gone on to become one of classical music’s most celebrated artists, commissioning major works from composers as diverse as Christian Wolff and Devonté Hynes, and recently appearing as soloist with the London Symphony Orchestra, Los Angeles Philharmonic, and as soloist on the main-stages of Carnegie Hall, the Barbican Centre, and BAM. An expert in the music of John Cage, Tendler has worked closely with the John Cage Trust and Cage’s publisher, Edition Peters, and performed the composer’s work internationally. He has also extensively performed the music of Julius Eastman and is featured on Wild Up’s latest album of the composer’s works, If You’re So Smart, Why Aren’t You Rich. Other recent releases include Liszt’s Harmonies Poétiques et Religieuses on the Steinway Label, Robert Palmer: Piano Music on New World Records, as well as his second book, tidepools. For his Inheritances project, premiered in 2022, Tendler commissioned 16 new piano works using the entire inheritance left to him by his father from composers including Laurie Anderson, Nico Muhly and Missy Mazzoli. A New York Times Critic Pick, the program was described as “not only a display of contemporary compositional force, but also a true show…with a sense of true dramatic stakes.” Adam Tendler is a Yamaha Artist and serves on the piano faculty of NYU. He is currently Artist-in-Residence at Green-Wood Cemetery. Land Acknowledgement David hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon. | |||
| 29 Oct 2024 | Ep. 35 - Staging Solitude (2021-22) | 00:30:33 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with composer Njo Kong Kie. Show Notes Gabrielle and Njo Kong Kie discuss:
About Njo Kong Kie Njo Kong Kie (composer) is a composer for dance, opera and theatre. His works include music for the play Infinity by Hannah Moscovitch, the same-sex rom-com opera knotty together (with Anna Chatterton), and the music theatre work Mr. Shi and His Lover (with Wong Teng Chi) - the first ever Chinese language production at SummerWorks, Tarragon Theatre and the National Arts Centre English Theatre. Long-serving music director of La La La Human Steps in Montreal, Kong Kie has further worked with choreographers Anne Plamondon, Aszure Barton, Shawn Hounsel and others, providing original music to their productions for companies such as Nederlands Dans Theater, Ballet National de L’Opera du Rhin, Hubbard Street Dance Chicago, Singapore Dance Theatre and Ballet BC. His soundtrack for TV documentaries includes Fisk: Untitled Portrait and China Rises. In development: The Year of the Cello, a play with solo cello music set in Hong Kong in the 1920s (with Marjorie Chan); The Futures Market, an opera exploring the complex moral dimensions of the trade in human organs (with Douglas Rodger) and I swallowed a moon made of iron, a song cycle set to the haunting poems of Chinese poet Xu Lizhi (Canadian Stage, May 2019). Kong Kie is the artistic producer of Music Picnic. More at www.musicpicnic.com. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded in Tkaronto (Toronto), on the traditional territory of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples and is now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. Tkaronto is covered by Treaty 13 signed with the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the Williams Treaties signed with multiple Mississaugas and Chippewa bands. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Gabrielle Martin 00:37 Gabrielle Martin 00:43 Gabrielle Martin 01:00 Njo Kong Kie 01:11 Gabrielle Martin 01:23 Gabrielle Martin 01:36 Njo Kong Kie 01:48 Njo Kong Kie 02:11 Njo Kong Kie 02:24 Njo Kong Kie 02:40 Gabrielle Martin 02:46 Njo Kong Kie 02:49 Njo Kong Kie 03:08 Njo Kong Kie 03:25 Njo Kong Kie 03:42 Gabrielle Martin 04:10 Gabrielle Martin 04:26 Njo Kong Kie 04:40 Njo Kong Kie 05:19 Njo Kong Kie 05:47 Njo Kong Kie 06:10 Njo Kong Kie 06:27 Gabrielle Martin 06:41 Njo Kong Kie 06:43 Njo Kong Kie 07:16 Njo Kong Kie 07:36 Njo Kong Kie 07:53 Njo Kong Kie 08:19 Njo Kong Kie 08:39 Njo Kong Kie 08:55 Gabrielle Martin 08:58 Gabrielle Martin 09:15 Njo Kong Kie 09:31 Njo Kong Kie 10:02 Njo Kong Kie 10:16 Gabrielle Martin 10:26 Gabrielle Martin 10:37 Njo Kong Kie 10:47 Njo Kong Kie 11:04 Njo Kong Kie 11:23 Njo Kong Kie 11:39 Njo Kong Kie 12:04 Njo Kong Kie 12:19 Njo Kong Kie 12:43 Njo Kong Kie 12:59 Gabrielle Martin 13:14 Njo Kong Kie 13:16 Njo Kong Kie 13:40 Gabrielle Martin 13:43 Njo Kong Kie 13:45 Njo Kong Kie 14:02 Njo Kong Kie 14:15 Njo Kong Kie 14:31 Gabrielle Martin 14:44 Gabrielle Martin 15:01 Njo Kong Kie 15:07 Gabrielle Martin 17:35 Njo Kong Kie 17:56 Njo Kong Kie 18:26 Gabrielle Martin 18:32 Njo Kong Kie 18:34 Gabrielle Martin 18:43 Gabrielle Martin 18:57 Njo Kong Kie 19:11 Njo Kong Kie 19:23 Njo Kong Kie 19:41 Njo Kong Kie 19:54 Njo Kong Kie 20:19 Njo Kong Kie 20:30 Njo Kong Kie 20:47 Njo Kong Kie 20:58 Gabrielle Martin 21:01 Njo Kong Kie 21:22 Njo Kong Kie 21:42 Njo Kong Kie 22:03 Gabrielle Martin 22:04 Njo Kong Kie 22:20 Gabrielle Martin 23:47 Njo Kong Kie 23:52 Njo Kong Kie 24:13 Gabrielle Martin 24:48 Njo Kong Kie 24:54 Njo Kong Kie 25:23 Njo Kong Kie 25:44 Njo Kong Kie 26:06 Njo Kong Kie 26:38 Njo Kong Kie 27:26 Njo Kong Kie 27:43 Gabrielle Martin 27:54 Njo Kong Kie 28:29 Gabrielle Martin 28:55 Gabrielle Martin 29:11 Njo Kong Kie 29:23 Tricia Knowles 29:28 Tricia Knowles 29:49 | |||
| 10 Sep 2024 | Ep. 28 - Arriving while Happening (2014) | 00:27:00 | |
NOTE: Due to technical difficulties, the audio quality for this episode is not at the usual standard for PuSh Play. Gabrielle Martin chats with Josh Martin, Artistic Co-Director of Company 605. Show Notes Gabrielle and Josh discuss:
About Josh Martin Originally from Alberta, Josh Martin is a diversely trained dance artist with a career-to-date that has led him across North America and Europe, studying and performing in many genres along the way. As a performer and collaborator, he has worked with many other dance companies and independent choreographers such as Wen Wei Wang (Wen Wei Dance), Tiffany Tregarthen and David Raymond (Out Innerspace Dance Theatre), Dana Gingras (Animals of Distinction), Serge Bennathan (Les Productions Figlio), Amber Funk Barton (the response.), Vanessa Goodman (Action at a Distance), Justine A. Chambers, Helen Walkley, Martha Carter, Karen Jamieson, and as a past company member of Le Groupe Dance Lab in Ottawa under the direction of Peter Boneham. Josh’s independent work has been presented in Vancouver, Victoria, Calgary, Moncton, St. Johns, and through the National Arts Centre in Ottawa; as well as in the USA, Japan, and throughout Germany (Winning 1st Prize for Choreography at the Internatonal SoloTanz Festival in Stuttgart). Off the stage, he serves as Vice-Chair of The Dance Centre’s Board of Directors and Chair of its Artistic Advisory Committee. Josh was the recipient of Vancouver’s 2013 Mayor’s Arts Award – Emerging Dance Category. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:22 Today's episode features Josh Martin of Company 605 and is anchored around the 2014 Push Festival. Josh Martin is a dance maker, performer, and producer based in Vancouver. His diverse training led him across North America and Europe, and in his ongoing career as an interpreter and collaborator, he's worked with dozens of dance companies and independent choreographers.
Gabrielle Martin 00:44 For over 15 years, he has been one of the artistic co -directors of Company 605, a Vancouver -based arts organization creating, producing, and presenting new dance works throughout Canada and internationally.
Gabrielle Martin 00:58 Co -led by artistic directors Lisa Marico Gelli and Josh Martin, Company 605 produces a wide range of dance projects in a shared creative process, placing emphasis on rigorous choreographic propositions and movement exploration.
Gabrielle Martin 01:14 605 is an ongoing exchange and collision between separate people, bodies, and ideas with each project seeking and celebrating the unique possibilities created in their attempt to coexist. The Company has performed from coast to coast in over 30 cities across Canada, as well as in the U .S., Central America, Europe, Asia, and Australia.
Gabrielle Martin 01:34 Here's my conversation with Josh. We are here on stolen, traditional, ancestral territories of close Salish peoples, possibly of Spanish and so -called Singapore. So far, it's been just on the rise here.
Gabrielle Martin 01:52 We're going to shoot outside. It's raining, so we're inside. Here we are.
Josh Martin 01:58 kind of soggy.
Gabrielle Martin 01:59 Lighting can be better, but we're dry. So this is a really great opportunity to talk about your relationship with the festival through 605 Collective and Company 605, your co -interest and director of Company 605, with Lisa Gelly.
Gabrielle Martin 02:18 And your relationship with Push, I mean, you can tell me where it starts, but I'll just contextualize that the first work that Push presented of Collective, 605 Collective, was an inherent album in 2014.
Gabrielle Martin 02:32 So we'll start there, we'll talk about that work and get a sense of what it was like to realize that work for the festival. And then also talk about Loop Lao, which Push presented in 2019, as well as your work as curator of Push Off or co -curator along with Lisa.
Josh Martin 02:49 Microwave Yamamoto, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 02:51 Yeah, the theater replacement team and your work with Push Off, which is now Hold On Let Go, which continues today and has a, had a direct and has an indirect relationship. Definitely part of the kind of what makes Push Push, even if it's not the push programming.
Gabrielle Martin 03:07 So we'll talk about that. So yeah, please take us back to the beginning. How do you, how did the relationship with Push Start?
Josh Martin 03:15 I have to assume that Joyce Rosario, who was the executive director of New Works around that time, who was managing company 605 or 605 Collective. I don't know, is that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So company 605 grew out of being 605 Collective, which was in our early days managed by New Works, first Barbara Claussen, and then Joyce Rosario taking over the helm of New Works at a certain point.
Josh Martin 03:48 And so we kind of grew up together inside of that organization, and then around that same time, I think Joyce was making the jump to be associate producer, associate curator of Push Festival, and I think that had already sort of tried to build a relationship between Norman and 605 Collective.
Josh Martin 04:09 And then it just sort of happened that kind of things aligned in a certain year, and then we had just premiered the work in the end of 2012, and so there was a chance to kind of get eyes on it, and then I think Joyce probably convinced Norman that it was worth having more eyes on it, and we were just starting to kind of have some international traction around that time, so it was invited to be part of the 2014 Push Festival.
Josh Martin 04:38 Go ahead.
Gabrielle Martin 04:38 like eight years after the founding of collective successful
Josh Martin 04:44 Yeah, I mean, the official society of the 605 Collective was 2009, but we had started working in 2006 as sort of a group of individuals, so Sasha Kozak, Michael Miyauchi, Lisa Jelly, myself and Shay Kubler were kind of the original core artists of this collective that had started.
Josh Martin 05:03 All of us very emerging artists, all of us kind of from a mixed bag of genres of dance, most of us from commercial dance and sort of finding our way into contemporary performance. And so, yeah, this was our kind of second big project.
Josh Martin 05:21 You know, we had done lots of little things, but Inheritor Album was our second full -length work, I guess.
Gabrielle Martin 05:28 And why do you think, well first of all maybe you can tell us what that project was and why you think it was the right fit for Push.
Josh Martin 05:37 Well, I don't know why it was the right fit for Push necessarily, but I can tell you that the starting point or the title inheritor album was just sort of this recognition of us being in this kind of middle zone where we were not quite emerging, we were kind of moving past that, but we weren't landed yet in terms of knowing what we were doing, but yet we were feeling this, I guess this place in the middle of both kind of in the position of receiving what had been left for us from previous generations and also being aware that we're kind of changing things or helping to build things too and a responsibility inside of that.
Josh Martin 06:17 And I think we all knew that that was like rich territory to explore content wise, but that it's not a piece we could summarize in like a work, you know, like it's just too big. It's too huge to think about where you are generationally inside of change or inside of the question of what you've been left with or what you've been left to deal with and what you're creating for others to deal with in your wake.
Josh Martin 06:44 But we knew this idea of an album was kind of interesting because then it allowed us to kind of just pick out things that were coming to us from it and just build it as a collection of work as opposed to one singular idea that was going to somehow encapsulate the entirety of this idea.
Josh Martin 07:02 So I think that for us it felt good, especially as emerging creators, that we were just going to bite off these ideas in ways that were, you know, five minutes long and then leave it, you know, and then move on to the next one.
Josh Martin 07:15 And so I think we also felt like, okay, this is like kind of we haven't seen a lot of dance formatted like this and it feels like this is something that we feel, you know, inclined to move towards as a way of making or as a way of coping with making that's something that feels big.
Josh Martin 07:33 So yeah, the idea of collecting work, especially as a collaboration, was much easier than trying for us all to somehow conceive of the same vision for this piece, you know.
Gabrielle Martin 07:45 So like different tracks in and out.
Josh Martin 07:47 Exactly, different tracks in an album, and I think, you know, in some ways it meant that the work was very eclectic and it had a lot of different dynamic to the highs and lows of it, or the, I don't know, the aesthetic of it.
Josh Martin 08:02 But we worked with an artist named Miwa Matryek, who I think has had a relationship with Push Festival, or at least Push Off has been here during the Push Assembly, now is based here in Vancouver, who was doing all the video design, and so that was the other piece of it that we wanted to really approach, was to kind of create these specific worlds without having to build sets for every single one of the tracks,
Josh Martin 08:24 but to bring in her projection design into the space, so floor projections and wall projections, and being able to kind of not build them as some sort of technological interaction piece, but to work with them as like another dancer in the space.
Josh Martin 08:40 And so, I think there was varying levels of success of how that worked, but I think it really added this visual layer to it that I think was compelling for people to watch, especially when we're mixing really physical dance inside of it.
Josh Martin 08:58 So yeah, I think that was, for us, it felt like trying to make a big piece. Now, in retrospect, it's not that big of a piece, but it felt big for us, and it sort of became our launching pad.
Gabrielle Martin 09:11 collaboration and because of the integration of the projection. Exactly.
Josh Martin 09:15 And trying to take the time to kind of really build out this album in a way that we could fine -tune and tweak each little track and try to make sense of it together as a collection that we could perform as a bit of a journey for ourselves but let it be all independent ideas.
Gabrielle Martin 09:34 The next year, 2015, you started working with Theatre Replacement as a co -curator, director of Pushup.
Josh Martin 09:43 Yeah, so Joyce Rosario, Chris Nelson, had, I believe in probably 2010, they had both been working on trying to build this, you know, this off festival of Push, but mostly about taking advantage of who was here during Push Festival, because it was this encounter between international artists and international presenters and arts workers, that the local scene was, you know, there was ways to interact with it,
Josh Martin 10:20 but I think they really wanted to get people's work visible, and so they had built Push Off, and New Works had housed it, and Chris Nelson's Antonin had housed it, and together they had kind of built these partnerships around it, and then when Joyce was leaving New Works for Push Festival, and when Chris was leaving for Lift Festival, I believe, yeah, oh right, and then it was the question of, okay,
Josh Martin 10:50 are we going to keep doing this thing, or who's going to keep doing this thing, and I know that Feeder Replacement had jumped on it to try and make sure that it didn't fall away, and New Works was in the change of hands, not sure if they should keep it, and so Company 605 decided, well, we're working with Feeder Replacement on another work right now, too, and that feels like a really good relationship and a good partnership,
Josh Martin 11:13 so we jumped on as being kind of the dance representative of Push Off at that time.
Gabrielle Martin 11:20 And so then, your role and responsibility was to curate the local artists that would be presented in programming that ran parallel to the push -ups.
Josh Martin 11:33 That's right, yes. I mean, I guess our role was to sort of envision, you know, how do we show what Vancouver is in the context of this international festival that's happening around side of it? How do we show what's kind of happening underneath the surface of the city or what's not on in the side of the theatres at this moment, but like give a sense of the community that's here?
Josh Martin 11:57 And so I think that we immediately were approaching it from the idea of like, what are people working on right now? Not necessarily like what's out there for sale, but what are people working on right now?
Josh Martin 12:09 Where are they working? How are they working? How do we make people aware of that? How do we build conversations around that with the hopes of relationships kind of forming in international threads being formed?
Gabrielle Martin 12:23 Work in progress.
Josh Martin 12:24 Yeah, work in progress.
Gabrielle Martin 12:26 And then in different venues was progress were you already based in progress lab at that point no no the venues
Josh Martin 12:33 No, it was it was kind of spread out and we had like kind of ancillary events happening also where We knew that like electric company was doing in the middle of a rehearsal process So there was like trips to different places, but the dance center was also being utilized And then at one point we switched to the russian hall as being like kind of a multi -purpose venue for all All sorts of work.
Josh Martin 12:55 So we've kind of been all over the place, but now situated mostly at russian hall as the home base Yeah
Gabrielle Martin 13:01 And then in 2019, Push Presented Luki Bao, what was the process of realizing that project for the festival? Was that a premiere, actually?
Josh Martin 13:12 It was the premiere, yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 13:13 Yeah, what is that piece and what was the process of putting it?
Josh Martin 13:19 I mean, very, very different type of work, I think at that point, like we had, we had done a few projects since Inheritor Album. I think that we had sort of considered like the way that we're making in terms of how often it's like these collages of things and we were really like gung -ho about going towards just one idea.
Josh Martin 13:43 And I think that, so that was, you know, the idea being that we would build this piece of choreography that was in a constant state of repetition and that's the looping part of it. And it went through this whole kind of process where we had set out to make this piece of choreography that was going to transform and change over the course of time, like not necessarily a durational work, but the act of it needed time in order to develop.
Josh Martin 14:13 And so I think we had thought that it was going to be this set piece of choreography that we would build the entire length of, but the more we worked on it, the more that we found a different interest in a side of it, which was really about like how the performers were actually just navigating change, you know, like the more that we worked on it, the more that we were seeing the difficulty of consistency and in fact seeing the dancers cope with that difficulty of consistency or like all of the little micro -airs or omissions or things that got lost or having to be worked on again were kind of the content for the piece.
Josh Martin 14:55 It was like seeing people having to deal with transformation or deal with things changing that aren't the same and seeing that by setting it we were actually kind of losing something to it. So it was our first time where we were like, okay, I think for this to really be what it is, we have to be a structured improvisation and we have to risk what that's going to be on stage.
Josh Martin 15:20 And so very different from our previous work, which is, you know, we set it, we rehearsed the hell out of it, and then, you know, it's just in our bodies, whereas this was constantly kind of arriving as it was happening.
Josh Martin 15:32 And so we just got really, we geeked out on dance in a lot of ways. And the labor of performers, the labor of dance of how much we're constantly coping with when we dance together and the way that one thing evolves and changes and how difficult that is to deal with.
Josh Martin 15:54 And yet dancers are also like the best, most capable people at dealing with that. So, yeah, I think Loop Lull was basically an experiment of, you know, when we take away the control of this thing and when we kind of hand over to what people trying to be together looks like, it looks like this, it looks like people, you know, being in this place of instability and then moving into moments of stability but then falling back out of it again or seeing people kind of get lost and try to catch back up again.
Josh Martin 16:31 And I think it's just really beautiful to watch dancers have to like really, really navigate it and not just pretend to navigate it, you know. So I don't know, like in terms of the success of the piece from the context of a viewer who's on the outside of it, who doesn't know the interior of the process, who doesn't know kind of the stakes.
Josh Martin 16:53 But for me to watch it, we're still kind of in love with what it became because now it's like a practice that we can do and we have turned that work into a practice that is more of like an installation where we will loop for, you know, forever and we can constantly move through the score in different ways and transform as a group and it's kind of meditative, it's kind of like taxing, it's about endurance.
Josh Martin 17:20 It's about just sort of how to be together and these uncertainty, you know. So it feels like that was definitely a departure from previous moments. So to come back to Push Festival with this completely different work, which probably anybody who had seen our work prior was kind of like, well, what was that?
Gabrielle Martin 17:46 why maybe Joyce, was it Joyce who kind of led that conversation with us? About that work? Yeah. I'm curious if you think that's why Joyce or Norman kind of is more excited about that work as being part of the 2019 festival.
Josh Martin 18:02 I mean, it was a premiere. I don't think that they knew what it was going to be. I think that they knew that we were working on something else, working on an experiment, as opposed to bringing another inheritor album.
Josh Martin 18:17 So I think there was some trust and risk on their part in order to do that as well. But I think it's also just in regards to you form these relationships with artists, especially from the local community, and you return to them to find out what's happening now.
Josh Martin 18:36 Like, what is this progression or what is this evolution of a practice or of the propositions that people are putting forward?
Gabrielle Martin 18:48 So maybe you can talk about that from Inheritor album until, well and we just premiered, Lossie, a week ago, two weeks ago at the Dancing on the Edge festival here. How has your practice evolved over that period?
Josh Martin 19:07 Well, I mean from...
Gabrielle Martin 19:11 I mean, you just told us to listen between a character album and the novel.
Josh Martin 19:17 Well, I think that's just it, is getting a bit more invested in trying to find the core of a work. Just sticking with that, like the type of work that we've been attempting to make for the time and space in between is really about investing more in the research or what's underlying the process in order to have that felt by everybody participating.
Gabrielle Martin 19:56 Does that mean that your research period is longer? Does that mean that you are working with a dramaturg? When you were working with a dramaturg before?
Josh Martin 20:06 I don't know if it's about like these sort of exact changes to a process. I think it's about values. I think it's about, you know, what's being prioritized and for us, the way that we want to make dance is less towards this idea of like, oh, we have a vision, let's find the people and get them to do that thing for us by telling them, you know, it's just this.
Josh Martin 20:30 I think that we're more and more invested in this idea of how we can bring a group of people together and we can all sort of sort it out simultaneously and that not everyone has to have the same idea of what we're doing and that, in fact, those things can coexist and that is, in fact, the work.
Josh Martin 20:49 You know, I think that everyone's approaches can be different to the way that we're working. So if I think velocity, it's like the way that we made that work, we didn't want to dictate this is how you should feel doing this work or this is what the interpretation of it should be, but these are the ideas that have kind of come out of our conversations together or the dialogue and that takes time to build that dialogue or to build this sense of your own relationship to a work when you're a performer or when you're a collaborator.
Josh Martin 21:21 And so I think that that's what we want to have is the space for people to really, you know, be who they are and not just to have that show up in the way that they perform, but in the way that that fuels the creation itself.
Josh Martin 21:35 So I don't know, I think it has a lot to do with our practice being changed and transformed or has evolved because of our relationship with community and specifically this one in Vancouver about like how do we participate in the community, the dance community, the performing arts community here where it's not necessarily about this product, like it's not necessarily about this vision for the piece that's going to go out and tour,
Josh Martin 22:03 but it's about like how are we together and the more that we've valued our place inside of that community, the more that that kind of infiltrates into the way we make stuff.
Gabrielle Martin 22:17 What's your perspective on the culture of context of person and significance to the city?
Josh Martin 22:22 I think, I mean, I landed in, I came to Vancouver in 2006 from Alberta, but I didn't really land here because I had kind of bounced around a bit, but I landed here around 2008, I think. But I do remember when I started seeing Push Festival, and keep in mind that I was younger and very much in like, harbour dance, street dance, commercial dance stuff, I wasn't in contemporary performance, I wasn't into that.
Josh Martin 22:53 I remember sort of coming into it at the same time that we were sort of figuring out who we are, what sort of dance we want to make or pursue. I remember going to certain performances in 2010 or 11, maybe even earlier, and it was like the out there stuff, you know, like for me, as a young creator, I was like, who are these people, like where does this work come from, and where can I get more, essentially?
Josh Martin 23:26 Because it was the experimental festival, it was the off -the -wall stuff, it was the things that felt from far away brought here, and so for me, Push Festival, like I remember seeing like the work Jerk, I don't know what year that was, 2000 years.
Gabrielle Martin 23:50 I don't know, I do remember, I think it's an eart for one of the years, one of the poster images.
Josh Martin 23:56 Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And being like, OK, it was the type of piece. And there was, inside of push programming, the type of pieces that kind of stuck with you a little bit or made you kind of have a bunch of questions afterwards that were questioning the act of performance or questioning the act of creating shows.
Josh Martin 24:22 And how are people doing this? In what ways are they going about that? I think it became this event known in the city or the identity of being that outlet for all of these sort of questions about what experiences are out there or what other ways of making or sharing are out there.
Josh Martin 24:45 Yeah, it's been significant for us because it felt like it's been this exposure piece that being in Vancouver, I don't think we get a lot of that. It's kind of important. It's sort of crucial to feel like we can put ourselves in relationship to the rest of the world this way.
Josh Martin 25:08 It's not that other people aren't doing international work. It's just that it felt like, OK, but this is really pulling in such a diversity of ideas or a diversity of work that's happening out there that I'm like, OK, now I can kind of situate myself or situate Vancouver as a result of having that all sort of align and be in one place.
Josh Martin 25:29 So every year, the programming has always had these pieces where you're like, so glad I saw that, because now I know that that exists. And it just kind of feels, even in ways that are subconscious, I think it fuels how we think about ourselves as a community or how I think about myself as a maker in relationship to everything else.
Ben Charland 25:55 That was a special episode of Push Play in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.
Ben Charland 26:12 A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Ben Charland 26:31 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. | |||
| 23 Jan 2025 | Ep. 56 - The Art of Contortion (Nadère arts vivants) | 00:37:19 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Andréane Leclerc of Nadére arts vivants for the Season 3 Finale of PuSh Play! Throughout the Festival, Andréane will be sharing her practice through a variety of workshops and consultations for students and professionals as part of a PuSh Festival Artist Residency. Show Notes Gabrielle and Andréane discuss:
About Andréane Leclerc A conceptual and performance artist, Andréane Leclerc is interested in human encounters that guide her towards interdisciplinary and interartistic processes. Trained as a contortionist (National Circus School of Montreal, 2001), she draws inspiration from her 20 years of circus practice to reflect on contortion as a philosophical posture and to develop her scenic language. Her approach, focused on listening, relational ecology and perceptive attention, is part of new body practices emerging from the somatic and performance fields. In 2013, she completed a master's degree on the dramaturgy of prowess at the UQAM theater department. That same year, with her partner Geoffroy Faribault, she founded the company Nadère arts vivants in order to pursue her exploration of a body/matter evolving in sensation rather than in sensationalism. She created the conceptual pieces Di(x)parue 2009; Bath House 2013; Mange-Moi 2013; Cherepaka 2014; The Whore of Babylon Featuring The Tiger Lillies 2015; Sang Bleu 2018; À l'Est de Nod 2022 and (X) currently in creation. Her pieces have been presented in Tokyo, Florence, Cairo, Tenerife, Sao Paolo, Guadalajara, Chicago, Rouyn-Noranda and Montreal, on contemporary stages, as well as in museums and galleries. In parallel to her artistic career, Andréane Leclerc is a teacher and offers contortion classes to physical artists since 2015. She also develops interdisciplinary dramaturgy workshops for circus, dance, theater and performance artists (Studio 303, En Piste, Playwrights workshop Montreal in Montreal, La Gata Cirko in Bogota, La Grainerie in Toulouse, Fabbrica Europa in Florence). In 2017, she participated in the creation of Cirque OFF, a living manifesto for the biodiversity of circus arts in Montreal (Studio 303). She also occasionally act as a dramaturgy and movement consultant (Dialogue of Disobedience & Black light, white noise by and with Dana Dugan, 2018 & 2022) and performs for various international projects (Variations pour une déchéance annoncée by Angela Konrad, 2012; The Tiger Lillies Perform Hamlet since 2016). Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Majula joined the conversation from what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello, and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Artistic Director, and today's episode highlights the dramaturgy of the circus body and relational ecology. I'm speaking with Andréa Leclerc of Nadir Arvivant, a performer, director, researcher and pedagogue. Andréa Leclerc has developed a somatic practice inspired by contortion for over 25 years. She creates transdisciplinary scenic works based on cooperation, listening and relational ecology. She's also a 2025 Push Artist in Residence, and will be sharing her practice through a variety of workshops and consultations for students and professionals throughout the festival.Find out more at our Push in the Community page. Here is my conversation with Andréa. I am thrilled to be in this conversation with you today. We're going to be talking about your practice and what you'll be up to at Push and what brings you here, what's brought you to this point in your career and what you're thinking about next. And just as we are about to get into that, I really just want to take a moment and acknowledge the land I'm on today. And, you know, this morning I was reading an article about PFAS or forever chemicals in our water, and I know we're all really aware of the signs of our extractive dynamic with the earth. And these signs are all around us and they seem to be pressing in daily. And I just I'm really incredibly grateful to live in this rich nature of so-called Vancouver, these unceded ancestral territories of the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh Coast Salish peoples. And to reflect on what it means to be a citizen of these lands and to live in reciprocity, which, you know, a totally different posturing than this extractive dynamic that's got us here today.And again, where are you where are you calling from? And I would love you just to I would love to hear you share your relationship to the land you're on. Yes, thank you, Gabrielle. I would like to acknowledge that the dramaturgy called Spirit, which runs through another of the event creation, has been shaped by contact with various unceded indigenous territories where beings and their memories coexist. So I'm joining this conversation from Jojagi Mounia in Montreal, which has long been a meeting place for diplomatic activities between indigenous nations. You started practicing contortion over 25 years ago, and this has evolved into your own unique somatic practice and pedagogy. And many many people would not associate contortion with its references to circus, virtuosity, the extreme, you know, painful looking positions with somatic practice, which tends to refer to more internal mind body methodologies. I would love it if you can describe how you made the connection between contortion, the contortion you were practicing, you know, when you started 25 years ago and the contortion you practiced today.
03:13 Yes, that's a very good question, because it's actually at the core of my problematic that has been leading my research from all that disconnection between what I perceived and live and embody my contortion body and all the perceived from and the perception from the audience that they were projecting upon my body when I was doing more classical circus forms. So since I was very young, contortion always have been for me a place for breath and accessing imaginary landscape and other sphere that were for me very fertile in terms of creation. And I always wanted and so new narratives and so on. So I was really traveling throughout my body and it was a way to resonate with the world and a way to be and live, experience the world. And so that always have been something I wanted to share with the audience.But then I'm starting from a very classical approach of contortion. So I was I did my education at the National Circus School in Montreal and I graduated in 2001. So a few years ago now, I've been really, fun, highly skilled, like contortion practice. So sitting on the head on handstand with very precise code and codification from spectacular, I would say, marketing law, when I'm understanding that. And so by, but that was just a way to do. And so by traveling the world working as a contortionist, at some point, even though, like, I was also formed as a contemporary circus artist, I always felt so unsatisfied by the impossibility to reach the audience with what I wanted to express.So then I was like, okay, so then how can I do that? And at some point, I did one creation in Germany. And we it was the first time I was doing like, proper, I would say, research on quantum physics. And it was a show inspired by quantum physics. And we had talks with researchers and scientific and scientists. And there was like an opening on new possibilities. And so there was very clear dramaturgical choices that has been made in matter to be linked with the subject. And so for me, there was a before and an after, because with that creation, there was a possibility to question the codification of how to write circus.And so art did not add to happen in between the circus technique. But the technique and the body and the circus body could talk itself out. Then there was some limitation of my research by was I opening door to actually come back to the university in theaters studying dramaturgy of the body, where I really passed few years to deconstruct the language of spectacular deconstruct the language of contortion deconstruct the body of contortion to try to make this body a matter for scenic representation.And how does that body through contortion, of course, because that is my first entrance door, how does that body can generate imagination and stimulate the true sensation and kinetic kinesthetic, and also composition of the stage, stimulate the imaginary role of the audience? So how can it become a language that audience can read? And that is really dramaturgy, right? Like just for our listeners who may not be as familiar with that term, or when you talk about dramaturgy of the body or dramaturgy of the circus body.
08:00 I can also reflect on how I interpret that. But can you kind of outline that a little bit more? Actually, yeah, I think it's a, I can go further, it was more about then after that to deconstruct and enter this somatic practice, so a language. So I was not any more into like a circus language, but I was in an embodied practice of amplitudes. So that was how I could actually get out from the spectacular aspect from the contortion to enter like a more sensation tools of writing. But then after that, from And then I can develop more about what is made that somatic practice, of course, but then the idea was really to enter about into interrelation of the body and how like composition of the body can generate new ideas or new meaning through sensation.So basically, I've been working a lot upon Francis Bacon and logic of sensation of Gilles Deleuze in order to get out of a way to represent in a narrative way or in an illustrative way, but to really work around the figure and the dramaturgy of the sensation. And with the painting of Francis Bacon, it's also about how the body relate to the space and how the body relate to oneself and how the body relate to the overall and the triptych, so the whole composition of the painting together. So for me, that really became true, like an abstract body made of flesh, bones, sensation and finding new relation within the body, a place for new composition and rethinking all our perceptive idea upon the body and finding new possibility of adjustment to generate new meanings and new mental representation. And so new dramaturgy. Yeah. And I think that term or that word you used reading is really important, like how the audience reads that body.And so often in circus, you know, the acrobatic vocabulary of circus has been expressed in a really until very recently, like a kind of narrow piece, a narrow context with a lot of this projected narrative of, you know, the cabaret or, you know, certain often it's used in theatrical interdisciplinary context in the contemporary world where, you know, there's a there's a text narrative, but what is the what is what does the body say? And I think that you've kind of distilled, you know, hearing you talk about amplitude, distilled kind of the truth of the body through this vocabulary. And then it's like how to dive into that. And to really explore like, what is the truth of that language through the body, which I mean, I think it's obvious to say through the body when we're thinking, okay, circus is clearly usually such a physical practice, but also the the the research development has often physical research has often been a quite operated in a quite a different sphere from say, contemporary dance. And so I've felt that often, when we talk about dramaturgy in the circus realm, it's more like a theatrical dramaturgy in terms of, you know, there's a text or there's like, a storyline, and that is the the physical vocabulary inserts into that, rather than digging into the like, yeah, what is when you really dive into amplitude, or these things that you're referring to, what is that?
12:17 Where does that take you in terms of an experience for the audience and for the artist? I'm really excited by your work.And I guess I think you were already talking about what's been revealed, you know, yeah, you did your master's degree on dramaturgy, the circus body at the University of Quebec at Montreal. And do you have anything further to share about what that revealed has revealed to you? Yeah, but to answer what you just said, or to rebound on what you just expressed around circus, I think, yeah, there's a there was an idea in content in modern circus in mother to wish to tell a story that to break out the traditional circus was to add dance and theater to circus where in a more multidisciplinary approach and in the we're calling it more like a mosaic type of writing of following each of the act and the prowess, and then inserting some theater and dance. And so for me, I was more thinking about if if circus is an art form, it needs to be talking on its be capable to talk on its own and express itself on its own. So more about how to dig into the language not only of the circus, but of the prowess, which is normally a vocabulary, sorry, in the circus world. But now to see it really as a complex organization, to unfold that and see how we can recreate now new way of writing in matter to get out of a certain type of tendency and circus not to generalize, because there is very beautiful and extreme, complex works happening. But to I'm still talking about more like the new circus, maybe ideas was still in the cabaret and those more like popular format, I am interested into searching beyond the self and the eye and the meep to enter into something that the artists can talk about something that transcends the personal point of view. Of course, the la pajole, so what they want to talk comes from them, it's their fire. But then after that, through the art piece that they're creating, it goes beyond the eye and they can talk about other subjects and only what they are living inside their body to become something more an encountering between different people, a place to meet. Yeah, which is also unique, because often circus discipline, the whole discipline practice formation is often very, well, I was gonna say individual, yes and no, because interestingly, like I think circus training spaces or where circus artists practice day to day, often tend to be very communal spaces, sometimes more so than dance or community spaces, but clearly it depends where you are. But for example, in Montreal, that was my experience. But also so much of it is solo work, whereas the dance, often a dance student will be focused on developing their skill and their technique in the ensemble context. And obviously, this is a big generalization and it's discipline specific, but within circus, but that often there is such a it's such a self focused practice. So I'm really also interested in your work for how you're working in community through your pedagogical practice and in the how you've designed your creative process and the presentation of your work.
16:25 Yes, it's very interesting what you're saying because it's true that circus has a very solitude aspect to the development of their own discipline. The work of a circus artist is very personal.But then it's interesting how collectivity also organizes itself in a way of living in a type of nomadism or circus nomadism that is still happening and how all like how the circus is traveling as a ladean of that discipline. And so with what you're saying in terms of contortion, I think what I wanted to do is that even from within the circus world, contortion is the only practice that has its own body in terms of an apparatus. So all circus discipline is always in relation to an object. Contortion, its object is its own body. And so I felt really isolated within even the circus world. And so I think that need my personal need to build bridges, my need to be in relation to be in dialogue and to share my practice to find a way that through my practice and all what my practice have been giving me in terms of knowledge, because I really believe that the body's own knowledge are way beyond our mind that can produce.And so it was about how can I build those bridges to enter in dialogue to create new possibilities through that entrance door. And there's a question, how does contortion inform non-contortionist bodies that you've shared as a starting point for your creative approach, or at least in the recent years? So why does that question draw you in and what have you discovered so far? Um, yeah, I mean, in parallel to my studies, I've been asked to give contortion classes to non contortionist people, because people are very interested to do a contortion and explore. And that has been for me, a huge school, I learned so much from all those encounters. And it's a huge drive in my artistic process.Because contortion for me became, with that question became a philosophy, because it was not anymore about what one self can do, because we did a workshop of like 15 hours, I'm not going to show someone to sit on their own head. And so it was more about how to defocus from the goal oriented, and then to really enter a process. That's one thing. Also, because when we didn't 15 hours, or if we're goal oriented, and with contortion, it doesn't goes with the rhythm of the body. And so it's, and especially as we're getting older, because now I were more with professional artists, so we're not six years old anymore, or nine years old, where the body is all very soft and virgin to the life, we hold history, we hold trauma, we hold time that sits within our body has been forming, we hold also belief that has been also forming our body. So with time, by focusing on the process, I realize how the limits and the zone of resistance that we can feel that one that our construction of life has been forming us that we feel that is blocking us to access contortion is actually places of protection. And so we have to find gratitude towards those resistance. They are very important because they're talking to us and they have things to reveal us. So we cannot like avoid what our body is telling us.
21:06 So then, about how does contortion inform non contortionist bodies about how to get in dialogue with your body, and to listen to what your body has to say throughout the process, to dig into those limits that are constructions of oneself, to enter places of amplitudes and opening, because without that without passing those face it phases, then you the body will keep protecting you. So you need to acknowledge that and you need to work with those sensations.And so that's how I am shifting focuses and the mind and to enter in a place, a posture of listening. So now for me, contortion is a is a posture of listening is a posture to enter in relation is a place to receive information and then see how we can re transform them in movement. I love I love hearing you discuss your process and I think and your philosophy and I think it's especially exciting because it is so truly unique. I think also with circus being such a relatively young discipline, the number of practitioners locally internationally, who are really like teasing out or expanding upon a foundation of circus languages, it's really rare and it's really interesting.And so you create transdisciplinary scenic works, based on cooperation, listening, and you've spoken about relational ecology. So what does relational ecology look like in the rehearsal process and on stage? And I would love it if you want to talk about your piece, Alestinod, because I know that that's really an example of this transdisciplinary work, where you're really developing a relational ecology. The question how does contortion from non contortionist body and what I just kind of explained are is really the foundation about the piece of Alestinod.And so this whole philosophy and this idea how to embrace one's voice and one's history and how each individual are fundamentally essential for the survival of a group. And so as contortion is my, again, disciplinary entrance door, I am focusing on the experience of each of the artists within the performance and I am embracing their voice within the piece.And so with Alice the Nerd, I developed all based on the contortion systemic organization to access amplitude and ecosystem in a complex choreographical partition, which we are activating within very precise law of movement and interrelation. So it's not a choreographical piece with a beginning and an end and a very formal writing.The choice all the performers within Alice the Nerd engage their agency within the piece to get in relation. And so that's how I also reverse our idea about performance and it's performative piece, but not a performance piece because we are not producing movement. It's about how we're not producing and as it's a piece that question limits at structure, as I just explained about contortion, my idea about contortion, we're not pushing boundaries and we're not activating or we're not engaging a language, which is a colonial way of thinking.
25:39 It's really just a system of law and organization within the group with a very precise, like I said, writing of organizing the movement where each of the participant performers receive information and transform them with their agency and so contribute. So somehow being in that piece is an action verb. So it's not just a state. So you are and so you take action in full consciousness.And so with this, then there's like very complex composition that are happening through just living time and space throughout the body. And so that's how I would explain more the relational ecology. And with this also, I'm rethinking my posture as a choreographer. So I've been developing this complex, um, scenic writing, uh, with the dramaturge, um, Miriam Stefani Peraton Lambert. And I work with local performer, uh, every time I remount or even recreate, um, locally, the piece, Aleister Donaud. So with this approach comes from an ecological statement also to first to create big scale piece, because there's between 13 and 30 people on stage. and but without traveling, first of all. Secondly, it takes a lot of time. So I'm not just like passing on a formal piece. It is a practice that is being shared. And so that the local artists are learning and engaging in. And so this takes time and time is resources, but times allow that regenerating nation of also resources and creates meaning. And then we did this as the piece has been already created as I see my posture as a choreographer in those places as a facilitator. And so I have a role, but it's not a dominated role. I have a role, of course, to hold the space, guide the performer, show and share the practice and so on. But there's a kind of, I try to reverse or rethink what is an ethical posture of a choreographer in the relation with the performer, especially contortion that cannot push boundaries, but how we can create together and turn in dialogue together through the piece that is that place of encountering and doing together. So how can we find how can we do together? And so at a question, also the model of creation and so the performance, of course, a question, also the model of production and touring, especially, but locally and also internationally. And so all those places of resistance become a place about dialogue and how we can do together. So it's about also facing realities and different realities and how you can acknowledge them. And so not to blend everyone in one way and diminutive way about who has more resources is more about, okay, how can we make that out, how we can find solution. And so we have to rethink the model. So it's really a place, I think, Alison, that is really a piece that demand to apply very at the core, or the idea and new idea about the situation and the ecological crisis we're facing on now. Getting out of theory and let's get it into practice. So it's not perfect. There's a lot of places, but I really wish that I'm contributing for evolving and it's a place of learning and it's a place of mutual growing and a place to stimulate critical thinking through practice.
30:22 And as you're speaking, I'm hearing about the relational ecology on the micro level, on the macro, or maybe not the micro, but like the different layers of how you are creating the work and sharing the work with the public and the relational ecology between the bodies in the space, the composition, the process of formation and the philosophical process that I'm sure is woven through that or the philosophy that's woven through that process with the artists. And then there's the relationship between how your work intersects with the world in terms of embedding for a longer term process, a more durational process, not touring with a large cast and really thinking about how your work actually connects and relates to the local culture and the local bodies.It's really fascinating. And having experienced an excerpt of this work, it's also, even though you say it's performative and not as much a performance, and I think that's a really interesting and differentiation to make, and I can see the truth in that, it was incredibly captivating. So the depth of the work in terms of the the action of being that you've created and how you've worked out that with the artist is really, really fascinating and compelling to watch. And we hope that we will be lucky enough to host this piece in the future here so that people can experience it from the inside and from the out.I would just love to hear about what you are currently researching, where you're going, what direction you're going with all this wealth of practice and research behind you. Many things. No. I think in the continuity, Alice did not open in 2022, so directly while right in the middle of a pandemic. We've been touring that piece, but first of all, we've been touring that piece in Armenia, Mexico, Buenos Aires, so Argentina and France, and also in Quebec in different regions here. As I just said, Alice did not, it's an ongoing recreation process. So I feel I have so much to learn from Alice did not still. So that's kind of, you know, you know, let's see what is the life of Alice did not will be. But of course, like that's a big, big trend that will live within me for still, I think many years because I still have a lot to learn from it. But in parallel, I have I'm also developing a solo, so another traditional performance. But I have probably for another four years maybe to do research for it because I, as I said, like I am returning to my own body right now, I am facing a place of rupture in my life in terms of like, I think with all the change of context in the world, I am questioning a lot about what is the meaning and role of art into the society.And I want to be really aligned with that. And I am with all Alice did not the master degree, the workshop I've been giving. I am just seeing how much all the bodies knows way more that we do human beings that are inhabiting our body. And so I really want to put myself as an artist to listen what nature has to say, and what my body has to say, and what are the new contemporary mythologies that are that are going to be born from what exists already.
34:51 So see differently. So a big shift in my posture, my way to read, my way to listen, my way to receive, and trying to listen what is happening and what are the shifts right now.And so encounters with other artists, people, culture, be in contact with different realities, learning, listening, and see where this will form itself into the new project. I love that term new contemporary mythologies. That's really beautiful. Thank you so much, Andrean. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you. I have been following your work for a very long time coming from the circus world myself. I've just been so inspired about your practice from afar, and I'm really so pleased that we've been able to welcome you, that we will be hosting you very shortly in residence here, so that other people have the opportunity to get to know your practice in a variety of ways. Thank you so much, Gabrielle. I'm so looking forward to being in Vancouver and meet everyone over there, the land and the people.
36:12 That was Gabrielle Martin and André-Anne Leclerc from Nader Arvivant. Throughout the festival, André-Anne will be sharing her practice through a variety of workshops and consultations for students and professionals as part of the Push Festival Artist Residency.The Push Play podcast is produced by myself, Ben Jarland, and me, Trisha Knowles. Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. This is the final episode of Season 3 of Push Play.We hope you'll have a chance to get out to see some of the works being presented in Vancouver and online January 23rd to February 9th. If you'd like to explore more of Push over the past 20 years, please look at our special 20th anniversary retrospective Push Play Season where Gabrielle Martin talks with an artist from one of the shows in each of the past years of Push. And to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theatre, dance,
37:06 music and multimedia performances at the
37:09 25 Push Festival, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media.
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| 07 Dec 2023 | Ep. 9 - Same Difference: when audiences perform | 00:32:12 | |
David Mesiha and Gavan Cheema discuss the fluid boundary between witnessing and participating in performance. Same Difference runs Jan 24th-28th at PuSh Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with project lead David Mesiha and dramaturg Gavan Cheema about their show, Same Difference. They speak to a wide range of topics, including how audiences can best experience this mixed-media performance installation, and whether the fracture of identity can be a positive in art. Gabrielle, David and Gavan speak to a wide range of questions, including:
About David Mesiha David Mesiha is a, Toronto and Vancouver based, award-winning music composer, interactive designer, sound/video designer and co-artistic director of Theatre Conspiracy in Vancouver. David’s practice centres around examining questions of form in interactive and performance arts. He is intrigued by the relationships between form and medium. His work utilizes multi channel immersive audio, interactive design and Digital Performance. He has worked on shows such as Project (X) by Leaky Heaven, Terminus by Pi Theatre, Foreign Radical by Theatre Conspiracy, and You Should Have Stayed Home by Spiderweb Show. He has been nominated and won Jessie Richardson Awards in multiple categories and has received a Dora award nomination for his sound design work on Oraltorio by IFT theatre. David’s music has spans multiple mediums and formats such as video games, film, theatre and interactive media. David’s Same Difference by Theatre Conspiracy [An immersive performance installation] premiered in Vancouver in April 2022 and will be presented at The Theatre Center in Toronto Winter 2023. David is currently working with Milton Lim and Patrick Blenkarn on asses.masses, a video game performance and with Adelheid and Heidi Strauss on You Are Swimming Here, an AR mixed-Media piece. Chosen credits: Theatre: Sound designer for The Humans (Arts Club Theatre), Antigone (YPT), Sound of the Beast (Theatre Passe Muraille), You Should Have Stayed Home (VR Performance, SpiderWebShow), asses.masses (video game performance), 15 Dogs (Crow’s Theatre) and Szepty (Rumble/Pi Theatre). About Gavan Cheema Gavan Cheema is a director, writer, producer, dramaturg and co-Artistic Director of Theatre Conspiracy. She is based out of Vancouver: the traditional, unceded, and occupied territories of the Coast Salish peoples of the xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) Nations. She is a first generation Canadian, with roots coming from the five rivers of Punjab. She is a recent recipient of the Sam Payne Award for Most Promising Emerging Artist at the Jessie Richardson Awards. Gavan’s play Himmat premiered in Vancouver at The Cultch in May 2022 and will be presented at the Surrey Civic Theatres in Spring 2024. She holds a double major from the University of British Columbia in Theatre and History, as well as a high school teaching certification. She has created work and directed for various local, national and international stages and has extensive experience in youth engagement, theatre education and workshop facilitation. Select directing credits: Conspiracy Now (Theatre Conspiracy), Rishi & d Douen (Carousel Theatre), Danceboy (Tremors Festival/ Vancouver Art Gallery Fuse), Burqa Boutique (Revolver Festival), Marie’s Letters (Shift Festival), da’ kink in my hair and You Used to Call Me Marie (Envision Festival), The [Organization] (Unladylike co.), Disgraced (UBC Players Club). Assistant direction: Clean/Espejos (Neworld), Foreign Radical (UK tour), The Orchard [after Chekhov] (Arts Club), Victim Impact (Theatre Conspiracy), Men in White (Arts Club) and Bombay Black (Vancouver Fringe Festival). Select dramaturgy credits: Same Difference by David Mesiha, Isolation Suite by Tim Carlson, Danceboy by Munish Sharma. Upcoming directing: Catfished (May 2023, Alley Theatre), The Dynamics (Oct 2024, Theatre Conspiracy), SWIM (Feb 2025, Theatre Conspiracy & Pandemic Theatre). Land Acknowledgement Gavan joins the podcast from Surrey, BC, the traditional territory of the Semiahmoo, Katzie and Kwantlen First Nations. David joins from Toronto, Ontario, which is the traditional territories of many First Peoples, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnaabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples, and subject to Treaty 13. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin. PuSh's Director of Programming. And today's episode highlights multimedia experiments in immersive form. I'm speaking with David Mesiha, responsible for concept projection design, sound design and also the project lead on Same Difference and Gavan Cheema, responsible for dramaturgy and co development. Same Difference will be presented at PuSh Festival January 18th to 20th 2024. As an immersive mixed media installation and digital performance, Same Difference invites audiences to wander through a beautiful, ever shifting environment of mirrors, music and video imagery where you might encounter the other and the self in new ways. David's practice centres around examining questions of form in interactive and performance arts. His interdisciplinary works integrate VR, AR and video game design in imagining new creative spaces that open dialogue between visual arts traditions and those of the performing arts. Gavan created work and directed for various local, national and international stages and has extensive experience in youth engagement, theatre education and workshop facilitation. Her play Himmat premiered in Vancouver at The Cultch in May 2022 and will be presented at the Surrey Civic Theatres in April 2024. I'm thrilled to share this discussion on a work that invites us to encounter ourselves in a whole new way. Here's my conversation with David and Gavan.
Gabrielle [00:01:35] Hello, I'm Gabrielle and I'm the director of programming with the PuSh Festival. And I'm here in conversation today with David Mesiha and Gavan Chema. And we're talking about Same Difference and a bit about the practice, your practice in general as collaborators and co-artistic directors of Theatre Conspiracy. So David, as the concept, production design and sound design and project lead behind Same Difference and Gavan is is dramaturgy and co-development on the project. And also just a little note that, David, you're involved in quite a few PuSh projects this year. So your work will be while it's really centred with Same Difference, you're also you've created the original music and sound design for asses.masses, and you're also the music composer and sound designer on Sound of the Beast. So it's a little bit of a David Mesiha spotlight at PuSh 2024. Anyways, very excited to be in conversation with you today.
David [00:02:36] Thank you. Grateful for it.
Gabrielle [00:02:38] I just want to start out by saying by just acknowledging the land that I'm on today and where I'm having this conversation with you from. I'm on the unceded, the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh). And I know that I think Gavan you are in Surrey... Colonially known as Surrey?
Gavan [00:03:02] Yeah. So I'm on the Katzie, Semiahmoo, and Kwantlen First Nation land, which is also colonially known as Surrey. So I've been here, I've been you know a first generation kid, born and raised on these lands and always kind of thinking about my relationship to the Coast Salish people.
David [00:03:18] And I'm calling in from colonially known as Toronto, Tkaronto, which is the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnaabe, the Chippewa, the Haundenosaunee and the Wendat peoples and subject to the Treaty 13.
Gabrielle [00:03:43] Thank you. Thank you for providing that context. And I want to jump right in. So, David, as a music composer, interactive designer, sound and video designer, your practice centres the questioning or the questioning of form and interactive and performing arts. And so I'm curious, how are you experimented with form in Same Difference?
David [00:04:06] Yeah, thanks for the question. Same Difference sort of builds on a number of previous pieces, such as a long term investigation of of form and performance and centring design as an equal part of of development and presentation of the work and not just something that is quote unquote 'supporting' a narrative. It's an integral part of the narrative. So in Same Difference, there is not a linear narrative. It is a kind of choose your own adventure in a way for audiences. Audiences are free to choose where and how to experience the piece in the in the context of the piece they can experience said by being in the middle of the space where projection and the set that this form of two way mirrors gives them the flexibility to choose perspectives and vantage points which changes drastically what they experience and see or they can experience around the perimeter. They're listening to a series of interviews that have been done with immigrants and refugees. Now, more specifically, the piece does not have any like performers and so it is self-guided, does not have a guide, it does not have a master of ceremonies of any kind. So it exists in the in-between worlds of visual arts, installation, media arts and performance. And it is still a performance because of how things are constructed and how the space invites audience to be performers. And so, so to be more specific that there are no live performers and that audiences choose... It is self-guided for the audiences. And there are two simultaneous containers for the experience and within them many different vantage points depending on where and how you move in the space. And and it's very much playing also with the tension between sort of a meditative experience and one that is actively engaged with narrative, although one that is nonlinear and emergent.
Gabrielle [00:06:08] How does the way you're working with form in this project relate to some of your other Theatre Conspiracy work?
David [00:06:14] Yeah. So actually, even before Theatre Conspiracy, I'd worked with Parjad Sharifi on a project many years ago called Project X was with Leaky Heaven in 2010, and in that piece, Parjad and I was the first time that we experimented with mirrors and audiences actually watching and experiencing a show through mirrors as the main container and driver of the affect of the piece. So that was one of the first times we're sort of putting audiences in a totally immersive environment that dictates everything about their experience was sort of emerging. That work then became also part of Theatre Conspiracy when I worked as a co-creator and designer for Foreign Radical. And in Foreign Radical, it is an immersive and interactive piece. And the container for Foreign Radical is audiences are constantly being moved from space to space and what they see mediated through projection design, lighting and sounds is quite different all the time. And different groups of audiences experience different things at all times, and sometimes they are aware of what other groups of audiences are experiencing and sometimes they are not. And that really informs the emergent narrative that occurs between different groups of audiences in the space and how the space itself sort of evolves through the duration of the piece. So I feel Same Difference very much is sort of the natural progression of, of these two like sort of touchstones or landmark pieces and over the last ten years in that takes that further with allowing audiences to cater their own experiences. Also opportunities for audiences to interact with each other in whatever ways they choose. And yeah, so it, so it kind of pushes even further the idea of immersion and interactivity within a performance space. And this time, without even the help of a guide or a present performer as narrator.
Gabrielle [00:08:12] Yeah. I want to know a little bit more of the dramaturgy considerations when working with form this way, but working with interactivity and immersion. Gavan, you're a director, playwright, producer and dramaturg, and as a dramaturg and co developer on this project, what have been some of the key dramaturgic considerations throughout and specifically with regard to its form?
Gavan [00:08:32] Yeah, absolutely. So like with this piece, just for some context that this piece was in development for for several years and has been in David's brain for probably like ten years, right. So I think as somebody that's, of course, a dramaturg on this project, but also somebody that's, you know, a friend of David. I think it was a really special, you know, investigation of what this piece is going to be and what the form is going to be. Because as a dramaturgical outside eye you're of course trying to look at what is this piece and what are the all the things that it can do. Right. But it's also like, what is David's vision and like what is the thing that he's trying to execute and like, how do we make sense of this experience that doesn't have any performers, that is immersive, but that has these powerful stories? So I think it was a really exciting opportunity to like, look at how all of these things are going to be in question with each other. And I think one of the most exciting things about being a dramaturg on this piece specifically is like A) asking the difficult questions in terms of like logistics, like trying to figure out how audiences are going to interact with the space, but then also asking the really obvious questions where it's like, if we do this thing, like, how is that going to change somebody's experience of this piece and just having the opportunity to watch it again and again and again and again and really try to understand like, what are the ways that we want audiences to best experience this piece and how can we develop a container for that? And also for some more context in terms of development, this piece did have actors at one point, right? So like when you're working, you know, in devised creation processes and like in rooms with several people, like I think as a dramaturg, just trusting that like, instinct is important. And sometimes that means just tossing out something that you spent like a couple of years doing and being like, 'this is the thing.' And really just like encouraging people to like, move forward with that and trust their instincts and, you know, create the thing that makes the most sense. So I think with this piece in particular that was also a gift is when we figured out what it was. And what it was, was a piece that didn't have live performers and trusting that like that was going to be the container and then trying to think about form in a different way with that context. Because we had spent a few years, you know, investigating this as a documentary piece of theatre that had actors, that had text, that had all these different pieces. And then another exciting thing about this piece and being dramaturgical, you know, lends to it is like trying to think about what documentary is, is in form. And I think that's also really exciting with Same Difference because I think it it does kind of challenge what documentary is in form in a theatrical sense. And it was really exciting to be able to investigate what the limitations of that are and what the potential experiences are that we can create with audiences, you know, interacting with stories that are real, right? And how do we respect those real stories and those narratives as well as, you know, the experience that we're trying to create for people?
Gabrielle [00:11:48] Yeah. I just want to circle back. I'm curious why why this work did not require live artists or actors in order to communicate what it needed to communicate or why the other forms took precedent or where became a priority.
Gavan [00:12:06] I can let David speak to this in a second as well. But I think for me, in terms of thinking about it, dramaturgical, it was kind of essential. Like at least for me, when that clicked, it was essentially making this piece a play that isn't a is isn't like, you know, an identity play or it's like when you put actors on stage and they're embodying other identities that are really different, especially when we're thinking about things in terms of immigrant stories and refugee stories. I think the exciting thing about making this piece have all these stories is just exist in the voices that they came from in various different ways. It really allowed us to create an experience that is about somebody questioning their sense of self, somebody thinking about like their relationship, you know, to all these different, of course voices, but also their relationship to their self. And I think it gave us a lot of opportunity to play and really ask the difficult questions and the exciting questions that we wanted to without kind of, you know, being, you know, cornered into this being somebody's identity that somebody else is embodying. And then putting text onto stage makes it really concrete. And the form that this piece takes now makes it a meditative experience that people will take what makes sense for them away from it.
David [00:13:28] It's a little bit actually ironic because when I very when I started working on this piece at all, even before sort of starting to put into formal context, I was imagining it initially as an installation and we did our very first workshop, in fact, in 2018 in Toronto investigating the installation aspects of it and then over the pandemic and also as the original team of creators were present, there was a desire and a drive to try to find narratives through lines and not through lines led us down the path of having performers and having performers let us down the line of of imposing linear narratives and and stories in a way that is a different less about the affect and more about telling plot lines, even if they are informed heavily by real stories and documentaries. But as we sort of did those experiments and in fact did a public showing, I had a strong inkling that that was not it. Many of the reasons are what Gavan spoke to about, that this is not really about identity in a geopolitical sense. And as soon as especially when you're centring refugee and immigrant stories and as soon as you put bodies of performers on stage with it, that automatically becomes a thing that everybody gravitates to. And not that that's not valuable, but in this particular experience, I felt that that actually was creating a distance between what I was hoping audiences would experience firsthand and stories. And I was more trying to imagine a world where the affect of questioning sense of self and a relationship to identity is at the heart of it. And that relates to not only immigrants and refugees, but many, many people. And sense of self, I feel, is is a thing that goes even a step deeper than geopolitical and even ethnic identity. They're completely related, of course. But, you know, it's what makes people who grew up in the same communities and places their whole life still feel like outsiders. It's that sense of self. There's a fracture that can happen and that that is at a deeper level. And I was really curious about that. And on top of that, I also felt that actually even language as text in theatrical context could be a little bit detrimental in this kind of process because as soon as we use language as a way to approximate concepts, I sometimes it may allow people to again create distance between affect and and complex questions and simply overlaying it on somebody else and relating to it at an arm's length. And I was really hoping that we could find a way to allow people to experience uniquely and individually completely the affect of questioning sense of self and questioning 'How do I know I am who I am? How do I know that what I think is right? How do I know that my cultural heritage or community or context is right or is wrong?' And interviewing immigrants and refugee, that was really clear. It's easier to highlight in those contexts. It's not only happening to them, but often people come from environments and societies where they believed one set of things almost an axiomatic way about the world. They're transported to a new place and they're faced with new questions and new realities that makes them question all of it: 'was what I believe in ever true. And if it is or it is not, how do I know that what I believe now is true or not?' So anyway, it's a long way of saying about to say that we just felt, and with support of Gavan and other co-creators, it was actually a relief arriving at a place of like, we don't have to force it. We can actually engage with this piece for what it wants to be and focus on the affect and experience of the space as opposed to telling one unique story.
Gabrielle [00:17:23] I want to focus more on yeah what you're talking about, which is this sense of self and belonging. And I know that the research process for Same Difference involved interviewing immigrants and refugees, which you've referenced as part of your exploration into how much sameness and difference we need to feel like we belong. And I'm curious if the nature of your inquiry or your perspective on this changed through the process of realising the project?
David [00:17:46] Yeah, I don't think it completely changed it, more like it confirmed suspicions and there was there was some comfort in that on a personal, very personal level, being an immigrant myself, I reference that in my program notes that I often feel like I don't belong in any space. I'm often in kind of a state of suspension in between spaces. I'm not I'm not somebody who feels at home when I relate to Egypt or when I go on visits. I don't. I feel like an outsider there in many ways. I feel like home in other ways. And similarly here. I also often find that I'm in spaces where even language and how my brain works because it jumps between many different language functions, I cannot fully express myself. Or if I do, there are assumptions about what I'm saying. So all to say that I was curious about if this was just me. Or other people would experience the same thing. And the interviews were phenomenal, not just because the stories are so incredibly touching, beautiful, but also that there was this underlying theme almost with all the stories. And no matter what we had, you know, people who are in the 60s who had emigrated from Ireland to young people from Afghanistan and Sierra Leone, the whole gamut. Bosnia as well as Serbia. I interviewed those two like back to back two days, and it was quite fascinating. They immigrated during the Yugoslav War and it was quite fascinating to hear what they had to say. And so what I... What was also comforting about it was a couple of things is that there is something about outsiders that felt like they were always outsiders, even where they come from. And there's a suspicion that a certainly for immigrants sometimes actually the reason why they emigrate beyond their socio economic motivations, that there are also sometimes a feeling that wherever they are is not fitting, is not working, and they need to find something else. And then there's also the similarities between all the different stories, regardless of the specificities about their political context, which could be very different on a personal level. There were a lot of similarities about how they were experiencing this sense of fractures, how they were coming to terms to it, how were they were living with it. And I found to me what was a revelation and discovery was being obsessed with sameness and difference was no longer actually kind of the objective. It was not really important to define one's identity in terms of sameness and difference, understanding identity is transient and almost always changing and evolving, but in fact actually acknowledging the fracture that happens when your in-between states can actually be beautiful and can provide a whole new kind of outlook, an opportunity to engage in the world in a very different and hopefully empathetic way because you're able to see through the fractured, the complexities and one's identity and sense of self.
Gavan [00:20:53] As Yeah, absolutely. I think David summed up that question really well, and I think it was honestly like a gift, being able to listen to those interviews multiple times and to be able to pull out the threads that tie us all together as as humans that go through these lived experiences that are really real and really visceral and like hearing how people describe those. You know, the first day of school at a new space, like, you know, trying to find a job in a new space like these experiences that I think everybody has in life and then try to think about ways that that gets even fractured when you're new and you're trying to figure out your place in this new world. Right? Because I think that was one thing that was really interesting when you're looking at these interviews, back to back to back to back, and you get to listen to them all is is how does, you know, like coming to a new place like really change these formative experiences that you may have as a young person, but also as somebody that maybe came here older and how there's so much sameness in that. But also people that still live here, like I was born and raised in Surrey, but I definitely come from a Punjabi family and, you know, like my older siblings were ESL for many, many years because they didn't necessarily have the same language skills as a kid born and raised here, and how there's all these layers of of complication that kind of we all navigate and work through as, as young people coming, you know, to a colonial space. I think that's another thing where it's like we're all trying to investigate, like what our relationship is to the space, to ourselves. And it was really beautiful being able to listen to all of the interviews many times and find those threads and then think about it dramaturgically in terms of this experience and what are the, what are the stories that we want to highlight in the installation because we only have like 45 minutes, right? So how do we take like hours and hours and hours of beautiful stories and like really rich images and really kind of like zero in on the ones that we feel were kind of really providing us that container that we wanted to investigate.
Gabrielle [00:23:10] I'm wondering and we're talking about identity, we're talking about sense of self, and you've also both touched on your own experiences and how they intersect with the subject matter. And so I'm curious beyond Same Difference, where does your lived experience sit in relationship to the work you create?
David [00:23:30] For me, actually, that's even when I was I remember even as a young child in Egypt, I was feeling and not an outsider in terms of like social context. I had I had a very social active social life, but an outsider in terms of perspective, I always was seeking what is where is the crack, What is different about what is being shared with me? When I was very young, I remember spending hours like making faces in mirrors, as I'm sure most many, many people do. But what I also remember thinking like if I was paying enough attention, I could maybe see how the image in the mirror is different from how I'm acting. And I could catch a break and I would be able to tell how we are different because it was a feeling I could never put my finger on. All to say that... So my work has been very much obsessed with finding the nuance and and looking at ways to sit in the discomfort of the grey zone, of not knowing where the clear lines are and and where we sit. And it's a very uncomfortable space, but it's a space that I also really relish in the work because I find that complexity of that space and the nuance that can be found in there speaks to me a lot more about what it means to be human and that that is something beautiful about that connecting with everybody, regardless of ethnic, religious, geopolitical context. Not at all saying that those things don't have like an insanely massive impact on lived experience, of course, and complicate things on people's lived experience, but also the norms that can be found in the complexities that arise with these systems, and then the experiences as individuals is something that fascinates me. So a lot of my work tends to be about using then also media and design as ways to look at those cracks and look at those cracks in form and aesthetically as much as in content. And I kind of view all of that as one thing. I think of design and and dramaturgy and content as one thing and not, you know, not as just layers that come after each other. They're just all performers onstage at all times.
Gavan [00:25:50] Yeah, absolutely. And I think to add to that, like for me, one of the exciting things about seeing difference and thinking about it in relationship to my other work is how it really challenges for me personally and also I think for both of us, just like what documentary can be and like the place the documentary has in our theatrical landscape here, because I think a lot of the work that I've done in the last little while with Theatre Conspiracy and also my personal projects is really thinking about, you know, memory, thinking about how we remember particular things that happen in our lives and how, you know, even a documentary story is going to be affected by the way that people choose to share different information about themselves. And then how as a director, you know, a writer, a dramaturg, you get to work with that material and create a narrative that makes sense to you. So there's always all these layers, even within documentary work, of kind of editing and reframing and fracturing and working with stories that I think is really exciting. And I think for me, when I think about, you know, my relationship to my work, I think that it's also exists in my brain. Like, how do I edit my own stories? How do I fracture my own narratives and how do I piece together stories that create an opportunity for people to just be vulnerable with each other? Because I think at the end of the day, like that for me is really like the powerful nature of of documentary theatre and of works like this that are not prescriptive is it really gives people an opportunity to exist in spaces and really just like ground themselves in this like mutual sense of vulnerability that like David's speaking to where it's like we are humans and like we all experience these different things regardless of like how we arrive to them and like how do we provide people with the space to investigate that, to challenge that, and also to like be playful with that and kind of how do we infuse some fun and humour in that? And I think that's one of the really exciting things about this piece. And then also about how I think about my work is to not necessarily lose that fun, to lose that humour, because sometimes documentary work can get really heavy. I guess people's stories carry a lot of weight and they're really rich in especially these ones. So those are some of the things that I think about when you ask that question.
Gabrielle [00:28:15] Thank you. Yeah. In conversation with you, it's really clear the passion that you bring to your work, your shared areas of inquiry, your rapport. And I'm curious, you're both co-directors of Theatre Conspiracy and clearly collaborated on this project. And so I'm curious about what the shared values are that energise you to to collaborate.
Gavan [00:28:37] Yeah, absolutely. Like I think for both David and I like if it's not already, clear we love working collaboratively and like we really love working in spaces that are non-hierarchical that really provide us an opportunity to kind of come as we are and see those differences in maybe thought in perspective as like ways that we can elevate the work. So I think for us, it's always being in conversation with each other about what are the things that are important to us and like not necessarily losing our values. Because I think David and I have both very similar values. Like we both work at Theatre Conspiracy and we're drawn to Theatre Conspiracy because the company has historically created spaces for artists to come together from various different backgrounds and work collaboratively and work in spaces you know that are devised. And I think for us, when we think about our co leadership, a lot of it is really intertwined with the values that already exist within the company and thinking about the ways that we're excited to kind of move forward with all these things.
David [00:29:38] So beautifully said, everything Gavan said. And yeah, and just like I've said, like Theatre Conspiracy already has a long legacy, led by Tim Carlson was one of the co founders, of empowering and enriching the community of artists in Vancouver while creating work that is also in conversation with internationally, with with our international community. And so I'm very passionate and excited about us being able to continue that legacy in terms of how we support our local artists, but also creating work that continues to challenge to be in conversation with the international community, but also challenge our assumptions about everything, challenge our assumptions about what we know about how we create work and about form and about what is performance and about what is documentary. That really excites me again, because that's where complexity and complexity I think is beautiful.
Gabrielle [00:30:39] Perfect, precise, articulate note to end on. It's been really inspiring to be in conversation with you. It's a real honour to be able to have Same Difference as part of the 2024 PuSh program. Same Difference will be on at the Roundhouse January 24th to 28th. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having spent all the years of research on developing this piece and realising it as it is now and for bringing the piece to PuSh.
Tricia Knowles [00:31:12] That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with David Mesiha, responsible for concept, projection and sound design and project lead on Same Difference. Joined by Gavan Cheema, who is responsible for dramaturgy and co-development of Same Difference. The performative installation will be a part of the 2024 PuSh Festival. I'm Tricia Knowles, producer of PuSh Play along with Ben Charland. PuSh Play is also supported by our community outreach Coordinator, Julian Legere. Thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi, conductor and creator of the original music featured in our podcast. New episodes with Gabrielle Martin are released every Monday and Thursday. And for more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, please visit us at pushfestival.ca and follow us @PuShFestival on Social Media. Coming up on the next episode of PuSh Play:
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| 22 Oct 2024 | Ep. 34 - Exchange (2020) | 00:18:02 | |
NOTE: Due to technical difficulties, the audio quality for this episode is not at the usual standard for PuSh Play. Gabrielle Martin chats with Fay Nass, Artistic and Executive Director of the frank theatre and Artistic Director of Aphotic Theatre. Show Notes Gabrielle and Fay discuss:
About Fay Nass Fay Nass is a community-engaged director, writer, dramaturg, innovator, producer and educator. They are the Artistic Director of the frank theatre company and the founder/Artistic Director of Aphotic Theatre. Fay has over 17 years of experience in text-based and devised work deeply rooted in inter-cultural and collaborative approaches. Fay’s work often examines questions of race, gender, sexuality, culture and language through an intersectional lens in order to shift meanings and de-construct paradigms rooted in our society. Fay’s work celebrates liminality and trans-culturalism, and blurs the line between politics and intimate personal stories. Fay’s work has been presented at PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, SummerWorks Festival, Queer Arts Festival, the CULTCH and Firehall Arts Centre. Her readings and experimental work have been presented at various conferences and artist-run galleries in Spain, Berlin and Paris. Their co-creation project Be-Longing was part of the 2021 New York international Film Festival, NICE International Film Festival and Madrid International Film Festival. Their most recent credits include: co-creating Be-Longing (the frank theatre), co-directing Trans Script Part I: The Women (the frank theatre and Zee Theatre at Firehall Arts Centre), directing She Mami Wata & the Pussy WitchHunt (the frank theatre at PuSh Festival 2020), co-directing Straight White Men (ITSAZOO productions at Gateway Theatre), and dramaturgy for Camera Obscura (Hungry Ghosts) (the frank theatre & QAF). Fay holds an MFA from Simon Fraser University. Currently, they are doing the Artistic Leadership Residency at the National Theatre School of Canada. As an artistic leader and a practitioner, Fay has deep and involved relationships—both creative and organizational—with a wide spectrum of artists across generations and stylistic practices. As an educator and facilitator, their philosophy and pedagogy are rooted in anti-racism and anti-oppression. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Gabrielle Martin 00:40 Gabrielle Martin 01:01 Gabrielle Martin 01:16 Gabrielle Martin 01:30 Gabrielle Martin 01:35 Gabrielle Martin 02:07 Gabrielle Martin 02:50 Fay Nass 03:05 Fay Nass 03:32 Fay Nass 03:46 Fay Nass 04:20 Gabrielle Martin 04:21 Fay Nass 04:32 Fay Nass 04:51 Fay Nass 05:06 Gabrielle Martin 05:41 Fay Nass 05:46 Fay Nass 06:00 Fay Nass 06:12 Fay Nass 06:33 Fay Nass 06:56 Fay Nass 07:11 Fay Nass 07:26 Fay Nass 07:41 Fay Nass 07:56 Gabrielle Martin 08:07 Fay Nass 08:10 Gabrielle Martin 08:15 Fay Nass 08:43 Fay Nass 09:02 Fay Nass 09:26 Fay Nass 09:47 Fay Nass 10:09 Gabrielle Martin 10:17 Gabrielle Martin 10:39 Gabrielle Martin 10:59 Gabrielle Martin 11:16 Fay Nass 11:29 Fay Nass 11:51 Fay Nass 12:05 Fay Nass 12:31 Fay Nass 12:42 Fay Nass 12:53 Fay Nass 13:20 Fay Nass 13:42 Fay Nass 14:04 Gabrielle Martin 14:13 Gabrielle Martin 14:26 Gabrielle Martin 14:42 Fay Nass 14:47 Fay Nass 15:09 Fay Nass 15:33 Fay Nass 16:00 Fay Nass 16:32 Ben Charland 16:58 Ben Charland 17:15 Ben Charland 17:34
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| 29 Aug 2024 | Ep. 26 - Local is International (2012) | 00:19:36 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Canadian singer-songwriter and longtime PuSh collaborator, Veda Hille. Show Notes Gabrielle and Veda discuss:
About Veda Hille Veda Hille is a Vancouver musician, composer, theatre maker, and performer. She writes songs, makes records, co-writes musicals, collaborates in devised theatre, and fulfills other interesting assignments as they arise. Veda performs in a wide of array of places, alone or with bands, ensembles, symphonies, and casts. Her career spans 30 years of working in Canada and abroad, and shows no sign of flagging. Veda spent a few formative years in music school and art school in Vancouver, laying the groundwork for a pretty elusive sense of genre. Her first album, an independent cassette, came out in 1991. She spent the rest of that decade working primarily as a recording and touring indie art-rock artist, releasing 6 more critically revered albums and travelling extensively in North America, Europe, and the UK. In the 90s she also composed scores and played live with many dance works, as well as beginning to explore forms such as song cycles and more experimental production. In the early aughts Veda began working in theatre in Vancouver, while still continuing to record and tour. At first she considered theatre to be a side hustle, but soon it became clear that she was spending most of her time in rehearsal halls working on devised theatre, new opera, and contemporary musicals. All that said, Veda’s albums continue to be the core of her practice; she has made more than twenty full length recordings. Some are cast recordings from theatre work, and others are collections of songs written around a theme or a time in her life. Veda’s work circles around many recurring interests: above all she writes about the natural world, amazement and the unknown, and the intricacies of human relationships. She strives for an ecstatic connection through weird detail, the universe visible through a microscope. All fancy language aside though, Veda Hille chases down the songs that are in her head and does her best to deliver them to the world, beautifully. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who've helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Today's episode features Veda Hilly and is anchored around the 2012 Push Festival. Veda Hilly is a Vancouver musician, composer, theatre maker, and performer. She writes songs, makes records, co -writes musicals, collaborates in devised theatre, and fulfills other interesting assignments as they arise.
Gabrielle Martin 00:42 Veda performs in a wide array of places, alone or with bands, ensembles, symphonies, and casts. Her career spans 30 years of working in Canada and abroad and shows no sign of flagging. Here's my conversation with Veda.
Gabrielle Martin 01:00 It's a beautiful day. We are here on the stolen, ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh. It is an absolute privilege to be here and we're sitting under a tree.
Veda Hille 01:16 Yeah in your backyard planted by my landlord's mother in the 50s nice camellia
Gabrielle Martin 01:22 Yeah, thanks for having me over. This is a really nice opportunity for me also to get to know your your practice and in part through the relationship of your work with the festival.
Veda Hille 01:33 It's been astounding just looking at your list that you sent me of the stuff I've done at Push. It's like some of the most major work of my career and then such a variety of work with so many people.
Veda Hille 01:44 It was nice to remember. Remember.
Gabrielle Martin 01:48 Yeah, so it started in 2007. Push presented this Riot Life and Field Study, and I'll just share what you're referencing, this beautiful list of projects, 20 Minute Musicals in 2009, Happy Birthday Teenage City in 2011, your collaboration with New World Theater on Peter Panties in 2011, Do You Want What I Have Got?
Gabrielle Martin 02:12 A Craigslist Cantata, which was a project with Bill Richardson and Emile Gladstone in 2012, collaboration with New World on King Arthur's Night in 2018, and Little Volcano in 2020.
Veda Hille 02:26 I've been very busy. Thank you Push for helping me out with that. So yeah I was trying to remember the beginning of my relationship with Push. I mean the first so the first time I was presented was the was this right life.
Veda Hille 02:40 Yes. And that was a commission from Push. So that was a commission for a song cycle and that came out of conversation with Norman. I'm trying to remember if he gave me any parameters but I don't think so and the thing so that's a that's a song cycle about grief and written written a year of grief for me and but mining relationships with hymn music and then involving I think like an eight or nine piece ensemble.
Veda Hille 03:16 Wow. Yeah so it was a it was a great musical opportunity because you know that's a large a large piece of work you know and hours hours with the music and the ability to have time with such a large ensemble to work out the arrangements and of course we recorded it as well and I believe that I also had the album release at Push the next year alone maybe.
Veda Hille 03:43 Maybe not.
Gabrielle Martin 03:44 How did you get to that point in conversation with Norman that he offered you this commission?
Veda Hille 03:52 It's all a little vague in my mind, but I'm pretty sure that I came into the push fold through my relationships with theater replacement primarily, because I was the in -house composer for theater replacement starting in around 2003.
Veda Hille 04:07 So that was a moment, I guess in the 90s when I got started, I was mostly an indie rock alt musician touring with my band and making records. But on the side when I was very young, like in my 20s, I was always playing music for dance classes.
Veda Hille 04:27 And that got me into composing for dance. So even in those early days when I just had my focus on rock stardom, I was already starting Diverge. And pretty soon after that, I wrote a song, an album about plants and like that whole pop music thing didn't really stick around for me.
Veda Hille 04:47 So that was... So somewhere in there. I turned to theater. Yeah, well, I think I was through seeing Leaky Heaven Circus that I really got. And that's where I met Michael and Jamie. I met them through a Leaky Heaven production that I was part of.
Veda Hille 05:06 And then I started to really get embedded in the theater scene through that. So it must've been in those days that I started hanging with Norman and doing things. I would have thought that a theater piece would have been my first push deal.
Veda Hille 05:20 But I guess I managed to scooch in the side and keep it with music.
Gabrielle Martin 05:24 And then your collaboration with the New World over the years has been significant for your practice. So the first Veda Hilly New World collaboration that was part of PUSH was Peter Panti's, and that was also a Leaky Heaven project, right?
Veda Hille 05:42 It was Leaky Heaven and New World together and it's a collaboration with Marcus Yusuf and Niall McNeil of course. Niall is a writer who also lives with Down syndrome and Marcus and he have a very long relationship so but Stephen was the one who came to me for that project and we went for coffee and he said we're going to do a version of Peter Pan that Niall is writing with Marcus called Peter Panties and I said yes yes before I was there I was like yes I'm into that and so then they fed me a ton of the script and I just took it away to I had a residency in Berlin and I went away and wrote a bunch of sketches of songs and then brought it back to the gang and that it was just a wild a wild show and a wild process of figuring out there because everybody was so involved and there were so many offers there was a lot of offers and I I would I've actually never watched the the documentation of that show I would like to because it was yeah my memories are just nuts I had a band of 14 year old boys so it was just me and all these teenagers and they would just always be drawing stupid things on my score and we were up on a scaffold and there was incredible stuff going on all around and then and we made a record of that of that music because I loved it so much just had all this chaos in it and it really helped break me out of the sense that I was trying to portray myself singularly in the world you know which is again attached to that idea of being being a star I think that the the work that I did with New World and Leaky Heaven and TR just started to make me feel like more of a composer which took the pressure off of any kind of image and allowed me to get a little wild
Gabrielle Martin 07:33 And then you continued working with New World Theatre on King Arthur's Night.
Veda Hille 07:42 was the next project with Niall in that gang and that and for that process New World really we think we spent three years in workshops which was really really fantastic because the company became a true company and that's one of the only experiences I have of that with a large group of actors neurodiverse and and neurotypical really figuring out each other's processes and as Marcus like to say it was a non -hierarchical room as best we could I mean some people are good at some things some people are good at other things but it really became a company in a way that I will always long for I hope we do I hope we do some more with that company sometime
Gabrielle Martin 08:31 I know when we were talking about this list of work, Craig's list cantata stood out. Why does this one stand out in your memory?
Veda Hille 08:42 So I had always wanted to, I had always said I wanted to write a musical. Because the King Arthur and Peter Panties and the stuff with TR is, it's theater that has music in it. They are not musicals.
Veda Hille 08:56 And I'd always wanted to write a proper musical or a rock opera. And then what I heard through the grapevine was that the drowsy chaperone was started as a 15 -minute wedding gift for friends. So someone was getting married.
Veda Hille 09:10 I'm sorry, I don't know who, and their friends made a little 15 -minute musical for them. And then it went so well that they thought they'd keep going. And I thought, what a fantastic model. So with the help of TR, Theatre Replacement, I started a project called 20 -Minute Musicals, where we commissioned four different writers or pairs of writers to make a short musical.
Veda Hille 09:34 And so Jeff Berner did one about, oh gosh, who was the guy, it's not Terry Fox, it was called A Distant Second. Is this Steve Fonio? A Distant Second, the Steve Fonio story, which was very Jeff Berner, Ryan, funny and odd.
Veda Hille 09:56 And Nick Kurgovich did a prison musical called In the Yard, Having Fun. And Juana Molina from Argentina did a musical. She just came and did her songs with some crazy dancers dressed as jellyfish, which is totally acceptable.
Veda Hille 10:12 And then I wrote a piece with Bill Richardson and Amiel Gladstone, which was all based on Craigslist ads. So it was called Do You Want What I Have Got, a Craigslist cantata. And we did the 20 -minute version.
Veda Hille 10:25 And it was so fun. I had worked with Ami on some other projects, but that was where we slowly realized that we could maybe write musicals that were actually musicals. And so then it started at PUSH in the 20 -minute form, and then PUSH and the Arts Club commissioned it to become a full musical, which it did in 2012.
Gabrielle Martin 10:50 in 2012. Yeah. Okay. So from 2009, and then you went into further development.
Veda Hille 10:57 Yeah, so then it was really tricky because it was a musical proper, but it was all direct addressed to the audience because we chose to just embody the craigslist ads as best we could and just have them asking the audience if they had what they wanted.
Veda Hille 11:16 It was a really beautiful project and went quite far, went to Toronto and New York and toured around Canada. God, it's hard to remember everything.
Gabrielle Martin 11:28 But yeah, I feel like I remember, I don't think I saw that work, but I feel like I remember just that name, and having heard your music already comes to life in the imagination in a great way.
Veda Hille 11:41 Yeah, and we got to do that piece again in the pandemic with the coach in an online distance. That is how I saw it. I was wondering why...
Gabrielle Martin 11:52 I have such vivid memories of this work. I know that I wasn't here at that time, but yes. Okay, now, yes, it's great. Thank you.
Veda Hille 12:00 Well, and it works that it works so well as an online piece I think it's one of the best things I've been a part of for you know We were all trying very hard to do interesting online work But that one because it is a series of ads worked perfectly and it was it felt like it came into its own again Because you know Craigslist is kind of old -school now But I think that the human center of that piece is still lively
Gabrielle Martin 12:25 and selling stuff online, it's not, it's not out of date. It's not done, not over, yeah. And okay, so if you can just take us from this Riot Life and Field Study, you know, all the way through Little Volcano in 2020, can you talk about how your practice grew or shifted in that time?
Veda Hille 12:44 think really my practice shifted because I had to finally acknowledge that I am a theater artist as well as a musical person. And Little Volcano, which was the most recent thing I've done at Push, was definitely sort of a coming -of -age of that blending of practices and that acknowledgement that I do I do many things.
Veda Hille 13:13 So we wrote a script with Jamie and Myko based on my life and it was a retrospective of songs from all facets of my life, but it had a script and it had a set and lights and it was really the first time that I made my own theater thing with their help.
Veda Hille 13:33 I couldn't have done it without Jamie and Myko. So I do think that when I look over the course of all the Push things I see myself sort of starting in one zone of primarily music and primarily like the center of the music and then then discovering all the different ways that I can contribute and the giant machine that is theater and performance and then and then finally making my own first tiny machine in 2020.
Veda Hille 14:04 And you talk about how
Gabrielle Martin 14:06 in your early work as a rock star you were centered and then there was kind of this many projects where you were a collaborator and in compared to that early work decentered and yet then this little volcano piece brought you back to the center of the work but this time using theatrical form.
Gabrielle Martin 14:31 Equally it was the music.
Veda Hille 14:34 Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. It felt like a real, and it was something that was really hard for me to perform, which was also what I wanted. I love watching people have to really work their stuff, and I wanted to have it be so hard to perform that I couldn't possibly wander off in my brain and think about other things.
Veda Hille 14:53 Hard technically.
Gabrielle Martin 14:55 hard emotionally. Technically. Okay.
Veda Hille 14:57 Yeah, yeah, emotionally is always rolling around, but I don't think you should strive for hard emotions. If it happens, it happens.
Gabrielle Martin 15:07 That sounds like more of an emerging career goal.
Veda Hille 15:11 I had that time, as we all did.
Gabrielle Martin 15:18 Yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on what you see as the cultural context of Push, having been in those early festivals and its significance for the city and for your own work.
Veda Hille 15:31 Yeah, well I realized we should talk about one other thing, which was that I was a co -curator for Club Push for many years as well, and that was another side, so that was Push enabling me to have another side, the curatorial side, be supported, and that was so fun, and we had so many great shows.
Veda Hille 15:50 Was that with Tim that you co -curated? Tim, yeah, Tim, and Tim Carlson, and Norman and I, and then Joyce came in, and then Cameron came in. It was a nice floating group. I would say, I think I did it for four or five years in a row, definitely a bunch of ones at Performance Works, and then I think I was involved with maybe one when it moved to the Fox, so mostly the early days of the club, but it was so alive and so exciting,
Veda Hille 16:19 and I really appreciated what I learned about the more administrative and curatorial side of things, because I love throwing a good party, and they taught me how to do it a little better.
Gabrielle Martin 16:35 Yeah, what was the, what were your goals at that time? Your curatorial aims with that? Well, I think it was- With club push at that time.
Veda Hille 16:44 And I think this can, club push in some ways can stand for the cultural context question of push too is because it was kind of a mashup. It was a chance to curate things that would butt up against each other instead of necessarily going smoothly because we were trying to get as many people in that room as possible.
Veda Hille 17:04 And it often, certainly in the early days, we were able to program two or three things plus a DJ or some kind of dance event per night, five nights a week. It was, you know, it was the heyday of people going out.
Veda Hille 17:20 And so I see that as part of the context of push too is that the openness to anything that has a particularity of being hours or being something that we want to be hours from somewhere else. And so it's like the tendrils overlapping through a bunch of worlds and it's just being drawn together by people's interest and enthusiasm.
Veda Hille 17:47 So that's what I've always appreciated about PUSH. And I've always appreciated it felt like it felt like an international festival and it felt like we were not brought in at the side. The locals weren't the thing that you saw if you couldn't get into anything else.
Veda Hille 18:02 I always felt appreciated as an international artist from the festival and that the people that I met through that have had great relationships with people from all over the world because of it. And the work that has been brought in has always expanded my possibilities because the stuff I've seen at PUSH has been incredibly inspiring and that's as important as doing your own shows.
Tricia Knowles 18:31 That was a special episode of Push Play, in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run January 23rd to February 9th, 2025 in Vancouver, British Columbia. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Tricia Knowles 18:52 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charlin. A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.
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| 09 Dec 2024 | Ep. 44 - Seen On Our Terms (OUT and Thirst Trap) | 00:41:25 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with performance artist, experience maker and writer Ray Young. Ray is bringing two works to the 20th PuSh International Performing Arts Festival: Thirst Trap, which will be presented throughout the festival in conjunction with the frank theatre company; and OUT, which will be presented on February 8 and 9 at Performance Works, in conjunction with the frank theatre company and Here & Now. Show Notes Gabrielle and Ray discuss:
About Ray Young Ray Young is a transdisciplinary performance artist, experience maker, and writer, widely recognized for their groundbreaking work at the forefront of activism, queerness, race, and neurodiversity. Their practice is centered around creating a safe space for those who exist at the intersection of multiple realities, through collaboration and resistance to traditional forms. In recent years, Ray’s work has been focused on exploring and shedding light on notions of rest, care, and recovery in art, particularly as it pertains to the experiences of neurodivergent artists. Ray has been working towards creating a more holistic practice that draws together art, nature, and technology, as they seek to challenge traditional capitalist ideologies of production that prioritize speed and productivity over creativity, care, and wellness. For 2024 Ray is bringing back OUT, an interdisciplinary performance that defiantly challenges homophobia and transphobia across our communities. OUT is a duet – a conversation between two bodies, inspired by ongoing global struggles for LGBTQIA+ rights. It is a defiant challenge to the status quo, bravely embracing personal, political and cultural dissonance. Ray’s other works include BODIES, an immersive water, light, and soundscape installation that investigates the embodied experiences of our relationship to water. Through this work, Ray seeks to explore and understand the complex and multifaceted nature of our relationship with water, and to engage viewers in a transformative sensory experience that encourages reflection and introspection. Another recent work, THIRST TRAP, is a meditative sound piece that explores the correlation between social and climate justice, and how our actions and choices impact the world around us. Through this work, Ray invites viewers to reflect on the interconnectivity of our lives and the world we live in, and to recognize the importance of taking collective action towards building a more just and equitable future. Ray’s work has been presented widely across the UK, including in London, Cambridge, Brighton, Leeds, and Edinburgh, as well as internationally including Portland, Mexico City, and Venezuela. Their groundbreaking contributions to the field of performance art have earned them numerous awards and accolades, and their work continues to push boundaries and challenge conventional notions of what art can be and do. Ray also works as a lecturer, mentor, and outside eye for other artists. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Ray joins the conversation from Nottingham, UK. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:01 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights stepping into one's power and immersive design.
00:16 I'm speaking with Rae Young, the artist behind Out, which is being presented at the Push Festival February 8th and 9th, 2025, and Thirst Trap, which is available throughout the festival. A luscious, fierce, and defiant dialogue through space, through struggles, through communities, this performance doesn't simply stand in solidarity with global 2SL GPT QIA Plus movements, it dances alongside them,
00:42 breaking down violent histories to imagine something new in a succulent celebration of desire. That's Out. And Thirst Trap is part narrative and part meditation, a 30-minute sound piece for audiences to experience in the bath along with a specially designed pack of multi-sensory resources to transform their physical environment.
01:03 It invites audiences to consider the correlation between climate and social justice, and to recognize the importance of taking collective action towards building a more just and equitable future. Rae Young is a transdisciplinary performance artist, experience maker, and writer, widely recognized for their work at the forefront of activism, queerness, race, and neurodiversity.
01:25 Their practice is centered on creating a safe space for those who exist at the intersection of multiple realities through collaboration and resistance to traditional forms. Here's my conversation with Rae.
01:39 When I started here in 2021, and I was thinking, okay, what are the projects I've seen in the last years that I would love to bring to push, Out came to mind, so I'd seen it at Impulse Dance in 2017, and it just had stuck with me.
01:55 It's such a powerful and just brilliant thing. performance that really like moved me and then we've been in conversations since then pretty much about making this happen it's been a long path but it's finally happening I'm so thrilled so yeah just to say a long time in the making and I'm really thrilled to sit down and chat with you a bit more about your process where you're at in your career yeah so before we jump into it I will acknowledge the land that I'm joining this call from this conversation so I'm among the stolen traditional and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh I'm settler here and I have a responsibility to continual learning and self-education and I owe a lot of that education to the Yellowhead Institute which you'll hear me regularly give a shout out to And I'm just going to share a little bit on today's kind of reflections,
02:58 which are on with regard to indigenous alternatives to climate risk assessment in Canada and What has really stood out to me is this comment on how Western silence science silos society and the environment.
03:14 And so often we see nature as a place to visit on the weekends. Rather than a dynamic and interrelated part of our daily lives and this contributes to this paradigm of progress and the capitalist model of extractive economic growth, which has resulted in the failure of the last 30 years of climate policy and so This report is Really Thought provoking and well researched and also ties in how Western policymakers neglect indigenous understandings of time,
03:49 space and scale. So that, you know, while climate change is a problem for all of us. We often only focus on start and it's inevitable end and we view it as a linear Process or trajectory with unavoidable effects and then forget that our present role.
04:07 We have responsibilities and shaping what will come next. So Those are kind of some of today's learnings and Ray, I know that we'll probably talk about some of this with regard to Neo colonialism and relationship to land and in some of your projects.
04:30 But first, I'd love you to share where you're joining the conversation from today. Well, I am in Lots of kind of gray, not raining Nottingham. Which for those of you don't know somewhere in the east Midlands of the UK, not far from Birmingham.
04:51 Yeah. Thank you. Can you talk about the impulse to create out and its significance in your trajectory as an artist? Yeah, um, oh shit, so funny when I hear you talk about impulse dance because it feels like a lifetime ago.
05:08 Sometimes those pictures flash up in my phone and I'm like, oh my god, look at me so baby faced. But I was, because I didn't actually know anything about, uh, I didn't know very much about impulse dance at all before I went there.
05:20 It was Dwayne that knew a lot about it and was like super gassed and I was like, oh wow, okay. I was just super excited to be invited somewhere to kind of, yeah, to perform the work. Um, I think one of the significant things about out is that I, I set out to make a piece of work through the body because Dwayne and I at the time had been having like lots of conversations about blackness and about awareness.
05:47 And, um, I guess like Yeah, the complexities between those two sides of our identities being of like a certain age. We'd have these conversations all the time. And I guess like I was really interested in working through the body some way and felt like this particular project would be like really fertile ground to kind of do that.
06:15 I feel like often when I start to make a new project, yeah, I'm seeking to like challenge myself in some way. And so yeah, this time was like, okay, so what does it mean for me to kind of do a piece that's like purely physical when that is not, yeah, kind of not my training, isn't there?
06:38 I think the other thing was it felt like some of those conversations would be really, really hard or had been hard with experts and being hard with our families. So it just felt like, okay, well, let's kind of like, yeah.
06:51 Physicalize the things that we want to say to our families and like more broadly. A lot of that was thinking about like, what is like a culturally traditional like dance forms, like the stuff that, you know, social dancing felt really, really important to us.
07:10 Because these things aren't usually seen in like highbrow dance studios or dance spaces. And we want it to kind of like translate that feeling into the performance space. I can remember being younger and going to like a dance or a rave and being probably dressed in something that I didn't necessarily feel comfortable in.
07:34 And then having like this bright light, this kind of video light, like frost into your face, like all up close and personal, but also just like the vibe of being in that place and it being like really, yeah, really community focused and like kind of everybody kind of like, moving as as as one and also obviously also that base kind of like ricocheting through all of your your bones and kind of like vibrating all the way through your body feels like sort of like I don't know like ritualistic in some ways or like a shedding of something so yeah kind of wanting to take that to a performance space and then also I guess there was conversations around like the music and dancehall that hasn't in the past been very favorable to towards kind of like queerness and yeah and kind of like wanting to kind of like subvert that somehow or just reclaim reclaim the music yeah and I was reminded of I went to a club night in London.
08:44 I think it was called Boo's Delicious. I've been there sometimes and it was like the first time I've been to like a queer like a bashment night and everyone was queer and I was just like wow this is amazing.
08:54 So yeah all of these things kind of like went into the work and we tried work with an amazing dramaturg and had like yeah some really amazing conversations and yeah and then I guess the yeah the work was kind of born although there was like a really early iteration and the first time we actually did the work we went all the way to Glasgow to Buscott Festival to do it because it was the furthest away that we could be from Nottingham.
09:26 We were like oh yeah we're not ready for family to see the work yet so let's go do it somewhere else and it was a really amazing experience. I think that's you know you don't know often you know you can be into a thing but you don't really know how it's going to land until all the power of it until you put it in a space of people and that was a really really stripped back piece of performance.
09:52 I mean I feel like the work is anyways mostly about the connection between the two bodies and then there are a few objects in the space but the people are kind of like it's very emotive and that's just like through the sheer power of the performers in the work.
10:06 Yeah and then I guess it kind of just grew from there really and we just like carried on to developing the work and brought yeah there was more people involved and yeah I think by the time you saw the work at Impulse Tampa, it's gone through that it's a really rigorous kind of like process of refining and distilling down and yeah and I you know I actually just really really enjoyed the process of making that piece of work.
10:38 I feel like yeah there's I think and also bringing it back now. It's really interesting being where I am now and knowing the journey of that work and kind of just like seeing the evolution of the work but also the evolution of like myself and the way I feel about it.
10:58 And also it's crazy how I think some of the things that we're fighting for, standing up for are still really as important and prevalent today. I think that part feels a little bit sad but all the more reason why as many people as possible should kind of like get to experience the work here.
11:24 And so this is the remount that's coming to push and yeah, why remount it? How has the work evolved with through the remount? And you've spoken to your feelings towards the work or yourself as an artist evolving over this period, can you just talk a bit more about that?
11:46 It was when I started to be unapologetic. When I started, when I made out, there was a piece of work that I was making at the time. And again, that went through low, I think it was this really point of like transition, where I kind of knew where I wanted to get to, and I was maybe a little bit afraid and I wanted to kind of push myself in ways that hadn't before.
12:04 And, and, and so I remember doing this piece of work, the one that came before that, and everything had to happen in the way it did in order for me to be like, okay, I have the courage to kind of make this piece of work now.
12:14 But it was kind of where I threw, I kind of threw away the blueprint a little bit and just decided to kind of like, do something else. And I suppose actually, this is the journey where I start to kind of, oh, this is the point at which I'm starting to kind of switch form a little bit and think about, I used to use comedy quite a lot to talk about really sensitive subjects.
12:35 And that was really great, because we all love, we all love a laugh. But this time I felt like, no, it's not funny. And also, it's not funny. And also maybe there's space for us to be able to hold, hold this and, and also kind of using the body as activism or using this idea of like, the show feels relentless at times, but so does kind of going out into the world in the UK, sometimes it feels relentless.
12:59 So I think there's kind of like a feeling of that in the world that we've in the world that we've created. There was something about standing in my power and standing in my authenticity that I really like.
13:13 I don't think that I will be the artist I am or the person I am now without that show. That's like literally how important it is to me. So maybe when people view the work and they speak of its power, maybe that's what they're seeing.
13:27 That's what they're experiencing, you know, that like real time evolution. I think like, this is one moment in the show where it is, I call it kind of this machine moment where there's kind of, you know, this is movement that happens for a long period of time.
13:41 and each time I approach that it never I don't suppose it never feels easier it's just but it is this this this is always for me there was always a sense of achievement of kind of like getting to the end of of that moment um and I suppose then when I fast forward to kind of like remounting the work this time um it was like well how do you how do you put that work on other bodies when it has been when it comes from such a personal personal place space and so a lot of what first of all it was like finding it was I guess it was like remembering what the essence was about the work and how that might need to shift for kind of the audiences of today or shift for where we are at politically making sure that the casting the representation was really really right in terms of the bodies I felt like I wanted,
14:40 you know, there's only two performers in the work, but I wanted those bodies to be equally celebrated and to be different from maybe what we see usually in a piece of work. And then it was trying to go through that process of, you know, finding the right performers with the right chemistry, and then also taking them through the journey of, well, look, this is how we started to make the work.
15:01 These were the conversations we were having. Let's have some of those conversations first, and then let's try on the work and let's not try to, and I think it's difficult, right, because there's an expectation.
15:13 If you've seen the work, there's an expectation from, I guess, like a programmer that's experienced it for it to be as is. And I suppose also for me, because we've kind of reached that iteration, a new kind of had really spent time finessing it, it kind of felt like shape-wise it needed to kind of, the journey of it needed to kind of remain the same, but we also kind of needed to kind of be generous in there to kind of like play around with the movement language that we had and elaborate on that a little bit more so that the new performers felt like they had a place in it.
15:55 Right. So diving back into both the movement language and the conversations that had inspired the work and those conversations were really about like the intersection of queerness and Caribbean identity.
16:10 It was a bit of a crash course, I guess, for them, because obviously, you know, I had so much time to kind of get to grips with it and they were being asked to perform this very emotive work and put their selves in it and also come up against some of those frictions and some of those feelings that I, the challenges that I'd also felt when I was performing in the work.
16:32 It's no mean feat, but they've done an amazing, amazing job. Because of these sections, like the machine section, that is, is like a bit, you kind of like trance-like and grueling or how both in terms of the content that it's addressing and also in the physical demand.
16:51 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we danced in heels in the work. I can't tell you how many times I thought to myself, even when I was in it, why, why did you, why did you make this choice? I was naivety, but there was something about like teetering on the edge and the fragility of that kind of finding your footing always and just them asking that as someone else and also asking them to trust you, trust you,
17:16 trust the process of the work, trust that I know what it is, it will be on the other side. And if, you know, I think that, you know, there will be this kind of element of like transformation. It has the power to do that once you get to kind of the other side.
17:31 But yeah, they, you know, they've really embraced the work and it's changed because they are different. and they have a different experience and actually in some of the conversations that we're having you know those performers are quite a lot younger than Dwayne and myself and so their experience of being black and queer and growing up in London which is a very different experience from growing up in Nottingham you know it was very that was it was different and so yeah I think because there's less I mean you spoke to how the work is still so relevant because there hasn't been as much shift with regard to the society homophobia these things and in since you created the work but then working with the younger cast from a more like a larger more metropolitan international city was there was there a disconnect there in terms of like the intensity of the the experience of the that intersectionality yeah I mean they you know they go put it yeah they go up in a city where there were lots more people that looked like that and were also queer and they had it that that club night I talked about you know that was my first opportunity to go there and that was when I was can't remember what age but they were able to experience that from a really really young age and feel that uh like feeling that places as as as a safe space for not only queer bodies but for trans bodies as well and talk about that as being like I guess the foregrounding in terms of becoming who they were seeing other people like them and then knowing that that is okay to you know to kind of live in their authenticity and then we're in a time I think last year felt like have we moved forward at all because it feels like we're in a time where governments are pitting people against each other and so last year particularly for like there was a focus on really tearing down trans people in a way that I found utterly disgusting and so transparent as kind of like what you know what you know what the agenda was and I still think and and I you know obviously I think that I mean yeah I just find it disgusting actually it felt really really really the right time to kind of be bringing this work back into the world yeah to be like we're not going to be quiet we're not going to go away you know we're here we deserve to be here we deserve to take your space it's about being invisible being really really seen I think I didn't speak about that but it was about being seen on our terms and about strength and fragility because I don't think that people get to be fragile a lot of the time you know and so the softness that's kind of like yeah there's all of it.
20:40 Yeah and in your recent work you focused on exploring notions of rest, care, recovery in your in your art. What it means to both create and receive art while centering care and intentionality. Can you talk about what that looks like in relation to your projects, thirst trap, bodies and plow?
21:00 Yeah I think that um I think I was tired. I think I was tired. I'm a neurodivergent artist and maybe because of that and because of kind of sitting on these different uh sit in the midst of these kind of different identities or whatever.
21:27 I'm also living in this world, this world that is I think I was talking to before about like empathy. Like where has that gone? Um I I guess like I needed a rest and so therefore I created a work that would allow people to experience it in a restful state and often actually the first trap in private.
21:53 Um and I wanted people to be able to uh have space and time to think. To uh to see each other, to um you know these these works of thinking about uh like climate and like our part in that and I feel like they're all interlinked because you can't have private justice without having social justice.
22:20 Like those two things you know um it's impossible and and so yeah I I needed to slow down. I kept saying maybe lots of people said a lot that I'm not going to go back to working how I did before and I in some parts did do that as much as much as I could.
22:44 But also I suppose for me in that moment in time, I took myself, the key thing is that I decided to take in order to do that restful thing, I took myself out of the work. Because when your body is a site of trauma, and it's also the thing, and then it's also the material in the work.
23:04 And it's also the thing that people want to talk about when they want to like critique the work and your lived experience, which is personal to me, but also I know through having friends and family, it's not that personal to me, because these are the things that we talk about often.
23:26 I still wanted to be able to give, but not in a way where it took from me, and it was taken a lot from me. you So yeah, I created these two pieces where I ask the audience to be the performer in the work, I guess, you know, I asked them to do the work.
23:48 It doesn't exist actually, unless the work isn't, yeah, it doesn't exist really, isn't alive until there are people in the work performing for being the stand-ins of those things. Because in Thirstrap it's the audience, an audience of one in a private space is led by prompts, it's following a narrative, it's experiencing something that they are also helping, they're an actor in that experience as they're following along.
24:17 And then was bodies, did bodies come out of Thirstrap? Are they, or is it really its own project? Yeah, so bodies were supposed to be first, it was always supposed to be that swimming pool piece, and then lockdown happened.
24:32 So we're like, ah, we can't be in community together in a pool anymore, so what can we do for this time that feels like it is hitting some of the same things that I wanted to do with Thirstrap? So Thirstrap was really an experiment, you know, and it was really an experiment in like, how do I make a piece of work when I'm not, that I'm not in?
24:53 Because I think maybe if you get me as a performer, you kind of know what to expect if you've seen my work before, but if I take myself out of that, then how do I still, how does it still do the things that I would normally, that I would be trying to do in the space, and the relationship with the audience, how do we still kind of have that thing happen without me kind of like being there, and you know,
25:15 all of my shows I feel like are about like world building. And so yeah, it was a test really to see if that could, if it could do, if you could get this box delivered to your house with a few simple things in it, and have kind of quite simple setup, you know, you're using your mobile phone and some headphones.
25:36 And then you've got some objects that you kind of take into the bath, which is a place that you, you know, many people always go and how do we kind of like make that, how do we make that theatrical experience in that kind of small space in your bathroom for one.
25:53 And again, process, the process of making that was always nice to have the finished piece. But obviously with that piece, I'm never going to know, I never see, I never see it. I've never seen somebody's bathroom like, oh, why don't you go in?
26:08 I never see it, I kind of hear about it afterwards, but yeah, it was just exciting to be able to kind of make work in that way, to really have the opportunity to take a risk and do something different.
26:22 So then when we're allowed to be together in this space again, I could kind of go back to like, okay, so what is bodies, then how does that differ? What are the similarities? which is an immersive experience in like, in a swimming pool.
26:42 In a swimming pool, yeah, for 24 people at a time. Yes, yes. An instructional as well and uses kind of lights and sound as kind of like an immersive experience to kind of guide people on a journey. Yeah, of recovery, discovery and the rest, I guess, does both of those things.
27:03 It kind of takes you out. What a really nice way to experience something. I suppose because also, you know, the things that I'm talking about are quite heavy. But I want people to be in this like restful space to be able to kind of receive the information because I think you turn on the TV or you look on Instagram or anything like that and it's you're, you're, you're exposed to things really, yeah,
27:30 things all the time. And maybe just something in me felt like, okay, but if I can make, if I can make, if I can get the heart rate calm, if we can calm the nervous system, then maybe we could take this in better.
27:45 Maybe we can experience it better. Maybe we can see each other, you know. Yeah, I really find that very powerful about your work, how you use how you transmute this kind of subject matter through the body in a really visceral way, or through these tools of immersive, like states of recovery, or, and, you know, this is the first time I'm learning about your use of comedy in the past, but this like,
28:13 how do you treat this subject matter and your creative risk and experimentation is in form is really exciting and stands out from project to project. So yes, clearly, you're a transdisciplinary artist who's worked in dance, film, installation, performance, art, song cycle concert, more, I'm sure.
28:35 And does form always come after the concept for you? Or do you sometimes take on the challenge of a form first? So for example, Plow, your new project of film, was that like, you really wanted to work in film?
28:48 And you'd been waiting for the right project? Or? Yeah, I can talk about that to work in film for a minute. And actually, at this point, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to be in the work again. And so I not live or maybe live.
29:08 Because I think when the piece of work kind of is finished, it will be kind of this interaction with the screens, maybe this kind of the live space as well. And usually, I think that what I do is I think about what I want to say.
29:25 And then I think about maybe what form that's best said in. And then I find a way to kind of make the two things work together. And obviously, when I said I'm going to make this piece of work. It's going to be in a swimming pool and it's going to do this.
29:40 And people look at me like, okay. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. If you experience it for yourself, if you experience the water, if you, you know, the cool temperature, if you kind of like, yeah, bodily, it kind of like, I hope that it kind of does something different from just seeing something with your eyes, kind of really like feeding it.
30:07 And yeah, how kind of represents an opportunity, like I said, for me to step back into work, it represents me an opportunity for me to work in the medium that I haven't worked with before. Although I did really make, it's very funny, actually, I made a comedic video very recently, a student project about eugenics.
30:28 And I made this video, I've gone back to comedy a little bit. But it was really, really fun. I kind of really like the way what I like about film is the way that you can like, draw, draw focus into specific moments and tell somebody that something's going to be important a little bit later on or kind of be expansive.
30:58 And again, just really interesting to see how like my interest in like world building and emotive, I don't know, yeah. And trying to draw out certain feelings from people. And your work has everything I've seen has a really strong aesthetic perspective.
31:26 And already in your kind of treatment, the visual storyboard, or I don't know, it's not called a storyboard, it's called a... The inspiration board for the film looks incredible. I'm so excited to see how Eurosthetic will translate to that medium, where often a lot more is possible than like not large budget theater.
31:53 I think it's great to hear about how you're finding fun in creative process these days, and also sustainability for yourself. So I do have a question about where you're at in your career now. So, you know, out premiered in 2017.
32:13 Since then, your work has toured internationally, been critically acclaimed. When I was at Edinburgh Fringe in 2019, your works out and nightclubbing were festival top picks. They were everywhere, you know, receiving great press, which is not easy in a festival of almost 4,000 shows.
32:30 And then, so I'm curious about the transition to becoming a mid-career artist and just how you perceive the challenges and opportunities at this stage of your career. I think opportunities are that people trust you a little bit more, right?
32:47 You know, they're willing to back you because they're like, oh yeah, this person can do it. So when I do go to them and be like, well, I want to do this crazy thing, I want to just deliver you a parcel, or I want to make this thing in the swimming pool.
33:00 I want to do this thing. They're like, okay, yeah, we think that you can do it. You know, they believe that you can. So that is really, really great. And also the fact that like, you know, my networks are so much bigger.
33:13 The fact that my work can travel internationally now and is meeting so many new audiences. And I feel like that's the great thing about being an artist, that I get to have conversations. I get to use my work to have conversations with people that I would probably never be able to meet and have conversations with.
33:28 That I might be able to change their perspective just a little bit. That I might anger them just a little bit. And we can have a talk about why that is as well, you know? Like, what's coming up for you in this work?
33:38 And I feel like I'm trying to change the world a little bit. And I was talking to say to Francis, who's one of my access support assistants, that I was like, you know, I'm just such an emo. I often call myself like, I'm like Mary J.
33:52 Blige in that could Mary J. Blige, doesn't really like, she can't really do a, it's all about sad songs, right? Because if she does a happy song, we're not feeling it quite as much, won't we? Because she has this way of like, or she did, you know, she has this way of tacking into being like, oh, it's my song, and I certainly feel like that, you know?
34:12 So I think that, yeah, that I've had the opportunity to like really hone that. And that's been really, really beautiful. I guess like, some of the challenges of being a mid-career artist is that, and I heard this from mid-career artists before I became one.
34:31 You know, when you're starting out and you're emerging, there's all of these opportunities. They're not big pots of money, but there are opportunities for you to receive support, whether that's cash support or mentoring support and all those things.
34:51 And then, and that's really, really great. And also, I think the biggest thing is you can fail more. Or it feels like you can fail more when you're new. When you start to make a name for yourself, I feel like it feels less like you can fail.
35:03 And I think failure is really, really important because there's also something that can be learnt from that. You know, it's the biggest kind of learning thing, and it kind of provides growth. And you can see, okay, so that didn't quite work.
35:15 What can I do to kind of change that and make it better for next time? But I think the key thing that is really difficult as being a mid-year, career artist at this point in time where we've, you know, there's so many cuts to funding and everything's so expensive.
35:30 And it's, it's, is that sustainability is like, for all intents and purposes, I run in a small company with a few people that kind of work together. And I'm often the last person to be paid or don't get paid.
35:46 I'm still doing so much work, so much work for free. And I suppose that is challenging because, because personally, if that were my friend or someone else, I'd be like, you definitely shouldn't be doing that.
36:01 You're worth more than that. And I know that, but it feels like there is no, I don't know what the alternative is. I haven't yet managed to find a way to, I mean, maybe it's, maybe I'm too ambitious because maybe I have too many projects.
36:25 I guess, you know, Gabrielle, I thought that the other reason why I made these pieces of work that I wasn't in was because I was like, well, that gives an opportunity for there to be a canon of work that can talk that I'm not in.
36:38 So that can be out in the world, making some money, not loads, because, you know, art is art, like in our art world anyway, we've got kind of like selling paintings for millions of pounds, but anyway, and then I can be, and that'll mean that that's kind of income generating, and then I can work on a new thing.
36:58 It hasn't quite worked, it hasn't quite worked like that. And I'm not really sure, I don't know what the answer is actually. I was, had a conversation with the Arts Council of England today and would have a little laugh about how these Arts Council grants used to be like under £15,000.
37:16 And then I was like, how is anybody making any work for under £15,000? She said to me, to me, your project smells like... No, it's not enough money to make the project. However, with timeframes being what they are when you put your funding bids in, you kind of just have to, it feels like you have to make it work for the money and for the time that you have available because if I, you know, I'm often thinking,
37:48 should I go and get a full-time job? I'm like doing what? I don't know. And also then what's gonna happen to the art? Cause is it possible to be able to do, I mean, I did it before. I've worked part-time.
38:00 But also it's a question of like, is that sustainable as you become an older artist and just maybe have different values or, you know, value rest more or just like self-care. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a real, It's going to be a really hard time to keep our mid-career artists working in the next decade.
38:29 I know so many people already that have like stopped. They're just like, no, I'm going to do something else. They have gone and taken the full-time job. You know, we're losing so many great people in the canon.
38:42 Like it's going to be really, really sad. But I guess like, yeah, as you say, priorities change. So you should probably like, you can check in with me like next year and be like, how's it going? Yeah, absolutely.
38:59 Well, you know, for better or worse, considering the self sacrifice, super glad that you're staying ambitious. So it is a very selfish way so that our audiences can also experience the remount of your work.
39:13 I'm so looking forward to seeing Plow when it comes to fruition when it's realized. It's so exciting to have two works by you here, both out and thirst trap. So people can really like, just get to know you a little bit.
39:27 And that you'll be here. That you'll be here. Oh, and I think we might have another, I'm not going to announce yet, because we're still in the details of it as we record this in mid-October, but I think there'll be another special appearance of Ray in the festival.
39:41 So keep your eyes open. Are you all Ray Dow? Yeah, no, it's great. We've waited so long. So let's like, just fully connect. Thanks so much for this conversation, Ray. Oh, thank you so much for having me.
39:59 It's really lovely to talk to you otherwise. You just heard Gabriel Martin's conversation with Ray Young, whose two works, Out and Thirst Trap, will be presented at the Push International Performing Arts Festival in Vancouver, BC.
40:17 Thirst Trap will be presented throughout the festival from January, 23rd to February 9th, and Out will be presented on February 8th and 9th at Performance Works. I'm Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles.
40:33 Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the 2025 Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.
40:56 And on the next Push Play... They need to have their own integrity so that we can activate the responsive level. So they're not just objects that are there for us to be manipulated. Not at all. They have objects that they need to have some kind of energy and they need to be self-standing and have participation.
41:17 particular textures, particular colors, shapes, weight, and different type of materialities, right?
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| 15 Jan 2024 | Ep. 18 - Rock Climbing and Vertical Dance | 00:49:42 | |
Inbal Ben Haim (Episode 3) and Julia Taffe of Vancouver’s Aeriosa Dance Society chat about the intersection of rock climbing and aerial/vertical dance. This episode is sponsored by the French Consulate in Vancouver as part of Paris 2024. Sport climbing is one of the new disciplines of the 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin discusses a number of questions with Inbal and Julia, including:
About Inbal Born in Jerusalem in 1990, Inbal Ben Haim grew up in the Israeli countryside. After studying visual arts, she discovered the circus in 2004 at the Free Dome Project then the Shabazi Circus. The call of heights and creating with her body led her to specialize first in the static trapeze, then the rich minimalism of the aerial rope.In 2011 she left her homeland to follow her artistic path in France, furthering her research through important artistic encounters and training: first at the Centre Régional des Arts du Cirque PACA – Piste d’Azur, then the Centre National des Arts du Cirque in Châlons-en-Champagne, from which she graduated in December 2017 (29th graduating class). In Summer 2018, she premiered Racine(s) (Root(s)), which developed from her meeting the musician, composer, and arranger David Amar and the director Jean Jacques Minazio. At the same time, she developed a teaching method for therapeutic circus and worked in various contexts in Israel and France. By blending circus, dance, theatre, improvisation, and visual arts, Ben Haim has created her own form of poetic expression. Largely inspired by the human bond made possible by the stage, the ring, and the street, she aims to create strong connections between the audience and the artist, the intimate and the spectacular, the earth and air, and the here and there. About Julia Choreographer Julia Taffe combines art, environment and adventure, making dances for buildings, mountains, neighbourhoods, theatres and trees, finding new movement perspectives in the realm of suspension. Julia is the artistic director of Aeriosa, a Vancouver-based vertical dance company. She has choreographed over 25 works on location including: Stawamus Chief Mountain in Squamish BC, Taipei City Hall, Cirque du Soleil Headquarters, Vancouver Library Square, Banff Centre, Scotiabank Dance Centre and Toronto’s 58-storey L Tower. Prior to founding Aeriosa, Julia performed across Canada with Ruth Cansfield, and around the world with Bandaloop. Julia attained ACMG Rock Guide certification in 1997. She has worked as a co-producer, choreographer, cast member, stunt performer, mountain safety rigger and creative movement consultant on various film and television productions in Canada and abroad. Land Acknowledgement Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Inbal joins the podcast from Paris, France. Julia joins from Ucluelet, which is a Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka) word most known as ‘People of the Safe Harbour.’ More accurately Ucluelet People, lit. ‘Dwellers of the Protected Place Inside’. The Ucluth peninsula has been inhabited by the Yuu-tluth-aht Yuułuʔiłʔatḥ people as far back as 4,300+ years ago. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript A complete transcript of this episode will be available soon.
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| 01 Oct 2024 | Ep. 31 - Turning Point (2017) | 00:21:34 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Owen Underhill, Artistic Director of Turning Point Ensemble. Show Notes Gabrielle and Owen discuss:
About Turning Point Ensemble Founded in 2002 by its musician members, Turning Point Ensemble (TPE) is a large chamber ensemble (16 instrumentalists and conductor) with a mandate to increase the understanding and appreciation of music composed during the past hundred years. The ensemble has built a strong reputation for outstanding musicianship and linking seminal 20th century repertoire to contemporary works through thoughtful programming and innovative presentations. Uniquely and flexibly sized between a small chamber ensemble and a symphonic orchestra, TPE presentations offer a symphonic palette with a chamber music sensibility. In addition to its concerts, tours and recordings, the ensemble has regularly mounted innovative interdisciplinary productions including operas, and collaborations with dance, theatre, visual art and moving image. Turning Point Ensemble has released six CDs and one DVD on the Artifact, Centrediscs, Atma Classique, Redshift Records, Orlando, and Parma labels. We have presented a diverse range of repertoire, commissioned and performed works by Canadian and international composers, and partnered with a number of community and cultural organizations. In 2010, TPE was awarded the Rio Tinto Alcan Award for Music 2011 – the largest production prize for music in Canada for its presentation of FIREBIRD 2011, resulting in 4 sold out performances in March 2011 at The Cultch in Vancouver. Other significant large-scale interdisciplinary projects include Flying White -飞白 which was co-produced with Wen Wei Dance for the 2020 PuSh Festival with three sold-out performances and the premiere of air india [redacted] (5 performances November 2015). We have also had two major partnerships with Ballet British Columbia, and several projects with live music and moving image. We are proud to have presented a diverse range of repertoire, commissioned and performed works by Canadian and international composers, and partnered with a number of community and cultural organizations. A highlight is our ground-breaking cultural collaboration with the Westbank First Nation in the Okanagan for an outdoor presentation of Barbara Pentland/Dorothy Livesay’s 1954 opera, The Lake at Quails’ Gate Winery, the original homestead of Susan Allison and her family. The central artistic vision of the TPE is to bring to the public extraordinary music for large chamber ensemble written from the early 20th century through to present day. We draw audiences to this music through outstanding performances, and intelligent programming that creates a lively context for the music. We seek to create links from the music of earlier times to new music, to explore relationships and connections between composers and their music, to perform significant large-scale works from the Canadian and international repertoire, to collaborate with multiple art forms in extraordinary ways, and to establish meaningful long-term relationships with some of Canada’s most talented composers through commissioning and multiple performances. Turning Point has toured internationally in 2018 to Asia and the Czech Republic, in addition to two Canadian tours. We have performed in many festivals and series including the PuSh International Performing Arts Festival, New Music Concerts Toronto, ECM+ Montreal, groundswell Winnipeg, New Music Edmonton, MusicFest Vancouver, Vancouver International Jazz Festival, the Sound of Dragon Festival and the Modulus Festival. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who have helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.
Gabrielle Martin 00:23 Today's episode features Owen Underhill of Turning Point Ensemble and is anchored around the 2017 Push Festival. Owen Underhill is a composer, conductor, and programmer who has been active in new music in Vancouver for several decades as the Artistic Director of Vancouver New Music, 1987 to 2000, and in his current role as Artistic Director and Conductor of the Turning Point Ensemble.
Gabrielle Martin 00:45 From 1981 until his recent retirement, he was a faculty member in the School for the Contemporary Arts at Simon Fraser University. Turning Point Ensemble, founded by its musician members in 2002, is a collaborative large chamber ensemble committed to the performance and production of music of the 20th and 21st centuries in flexible and innovative contexts.
Gabrielle Martin 01:07 Intersecting with multiple art forms, crossing genres, working with diverse communities and partners, engaging with ideas of contemporary relevance, and inspiring and enlivening local, national, and international audiences.
Gabrielle Martin 01:21 Recent tours have included Montreal, Zagreb, Belgrade, Santander, Taipei, Beijing, and Singapore. Here's my conversation with Owen. We are here on Victoria Drive, just off Commercial Drive, in so -called Vancouver, which is on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh.
Gabrielle Martin 01:49 It's a place that both of us call home. You're just up the street.
Owen Underhill 01:55 Yes, I've been in the commercial drive area for quite a few years. Love it here.
Gabrielle Martin 02:00 and I grew up here as well. This, we're just across from Victoria Park, where I spent a lot of time as a kid. So in a feeling very comfortable in the neighborhood and happy to be having this conversation here and grateful to be on these indigenous lands.
Gabrielle Martin 02:15 Turning Point Ensemble has a wonderful, long, rich history with the Push Festival. We're gonna definitely be talking about the 2017 production that Push presented. Zappa meets Verez and Oswald, the present day composer refuses to die.
Gabrielle Martin 02:33 But there are also so many other projects that Push presented, so we're gonna get a chance to talk about some of those. Yeah, let's actually go right back to the beginning. Would you just talk to us about how your relationship with Push began?
Owen Underhill 02:50 Well, I've known Norman for many years and so witnessed the start of the push and from the beginning with Turning Point Ensemble we really wanted to be more than just a chamber ensemble and to also explore interdisciplinary work with theater and dance and with film and so we started looking at the work that Push was doing and thinking that it would be fit in very well some of the projects we had in mind to propose them through Norman.
Gabrielle Martin 03:34 And you knew Norman very well from the 80s.
Owen Underhill 03:39 Yeah, from the 80s. Yeah, Norman came to the School for the Contemporary Arts at Simon Fraser University, and I just come there also as a faculty member, as a composer, and we were starting a composition -based music program there.
Owen Underhill 03:58 And...
Gabrielle Martin 04:00 my dad went to.
Owen Underhill 04:01 which your dad went to, yes. And my colleagues, Mark Diamond and Penelope Stella were great in theater. They were great colleagues to also collaborate with. So from when I first started going to, or being part of faculty there, I started working on projects, including plays like Sam Shepard's Suicide and B -flat, which I wrote music for.
Owen Underhill 04:37 And Norman was lead actor in that. And so, and he was already doing fantastic work there. So I got to know him as kind of a partner in productions rather than as a teacher, because I was teaching primarily in music.
Gabrielle Martin 04:58 And so the first well actually when was when did you co -found turning point ensemble at your site?
Owen Underhill 05:06 We co -founded in 2002 and our first concert was in 2003.
Gabrielle Martin 05:11 OK. And then in 2008, Push presented Dual Eclipse Orchestra of Two Worlds. And then, you know, in 2012, presented Trené Point Ensemble's Colorful World. In 2013, Cinema Musica. The Zappa meets Verraz and Oswald in 2017.
Gabrielle Martin 05:31 Radio Rewrite in 2018 and Flying White, which was also a project with One Way Dance in 2020. But how did the conversation, how did Dual Eclipse end up being part of Push 2008? Why was it such a great fit?
Gabrielle Martin 05:46 How did that come about?
Owen Underhill 05:49 Well, the Dual Eclipse project was with Balinese Ensemble, which they had at UBC. And we were doing works with dance. Jennifer Mascow was choreographing some works for that production. So it was, first of all, a cross -cultural project.
Owen Underhill 06:14 And secondly, it involved dance. So those were the kind of productions we worked with, with Norman, tended to be the ones that were more interdisciplinary and also included original work.
Gabrielle Martin 06:32 than Colorful World, how did that, you know, did Norman just kind of invite the next project that was interdisciplinary, or did you end up kind of pitching that work? How did Colorful World end up being part of?
Owen Underhill 06:47 The Colorful World project was more of a concert that included some new commissions. I know we did a piece of Rodney Sharmn there. So we tended to, I tended to pitch projects to Norman every couple of years that I thought would be of interest to them and also, you know, we're a large chamber ensemble, I should say.
Owen Underhill 07:14 So we're in between a small chamber ensemble and an orchestra. We usually have at least 15 players. So they were, you know, we tend to do quite major works, major scale. And so those that were a good fit for push were a lot of those projects that involved other disciplines.
Gabrielle Martin 07:46 Talk to us about what was Zappa, Mitzvahrez, and Oswald, the present -day composer refuses to die. I mean, first of all, it has an incredible title. Can you just explain this project a bit?
Owen Underhill 07:59 Yeah, sure. Well, the present -day composer refuses to die, I remember, as being written on a Frank Zappa Mothers of Invention album. It's written there. And then I found out that that was a quote from the avant -garde composer, Edgard Varese, who was active in, originally from France, but active from the 1920s in New York and in the US.
Owen Underhill 08:32 And Frank Zappa, even as a teenager, was really interested in contemporary music and he really appreciated Edgard Varese, who was really an adventurer in sound. And so that quote always stuck in my head and so because Turning Point Ensemble works towards making connections with the past to the present day, we often would like to pair maybe a composer or some innovative music of the first half of the 20th century with something much more recent.
Owen Underhill 09:16 So that was an idea we had and actually started talking with Norman about that in 2014. So we worked on that one for a while together. And is that...
Gabrielle Martin 09:29 because Push was involved as a co -producer or because you were just like developing the concept and keeping Norman in the loop.
Owen Underhill 09:37 Push was, well Norman really liked the idea of Res from the start, but he was very interested in getting a new work written for that show by a Canadian composer, and so we developed that one actually as a co -commission project.
Owen Underhill 10:01 So we discussed who to include in that, and eventually proposed John Oswald to him from Toronto, who worked a lot on his plunder phonics, where he sort of plundered the work of Michael Jackson even, he had to withdraw that because Michael Jackson thought about him, and he did Grateful Dead, so he was very involved in pop music as well as contemporary music, and when I threw that out to Norman, he said,
Owen Underhill 10:49 ah, killer suggestion, and John Oswald, so it was a go, so that became a really exciting program for us and for Push, and we also commissioned some dance for a couple of those pieces because we did the sort of large arrangements of Zappa that were done by Ensemble Muldern in Munich while Zappa was still alive, like in the last years before he passed away, and Edward Locke, the dancer, had actually done some dance,
Owen Underhill 11:35 which they did on those productions, so we decided that we would also bring some dance element to it, and so that's what we did also.
Gabrielle Martin 11:50 Do you remember who were the dancers or who supported choreography?
Owen Underhill 11:55 Yeah, it was Rob at my colleague at SFU. Oh yeah, okay, Rob Kitsos? Rob Kitsos, yes. And so he did, you know, it was sort of set up as a concert, but he had the dancers in the front, which is the way Edward Locke had done it, and they were actually right behind me and going very quickly, and right, I could feel the wind of them when they were performing.
Owen Underhill 12:22 So we did that as well, and that was a very popular show. It brought out all the Zappa fanatics, which there are many. Okay. So we did three shows, and I don't know what it was. What venue was this? You're right.
Owen Underhill 12:40 It was in the Wong Theatre at SFU Woodward, so there were about 350 people at each of those shows, but it was a good show for Bush, and it was certainly a good show for us.
Gabrielle Martin 12:54 Great, and did you, um, did Question, Turning Point, Ensemble, Commission, other projects of all the ones that were presented in the push years? No.
Owen Underhill 13:03 We talked about it, but that was, I think, the one time that Norman really wanted to get involved with a sort of commission that we would jointly do.
Gabrielle Martin 13:16 Great. And then, yeah, as mentioned there, after that project, Radio Rewrite was presented Flying White with One Way Dance. How would you reflect on the evolution of the company, like let's say from Dual Eclipse in 2008 right up to Flying White in 2020?
Gabrielle Martin 13:38 And then now, has there been an evolution in terms of process, practice, points of interest for projects?
Owen Underhill 13:49 Yes, I mean, we got more and more adventurous over the years in doing ambitious interdisciplinary projects, for one thing, and so Push certainly helped us with that because we always knew that if we were part of the Push Festival that it was a great way to bring in theater, dance, film, you know, a much more diverse audience, I guess.
Owen Underhill 14:27 And another thing we did, which was in the Flying White Project, was we worked with Chinese traditional instruments, and so some of the performers that are here in Vancouver. So we also became a little more cross -cultural in the projects that we have done, you know, when we saw the opportunity and the partners approached us as well.
Owen Underhill 14:59 So those were some of the things that we were able to explore more fully with the support of Push.
Gabrielle Martin 15:08 And your role in the projects, is it, are you sometimes composer, sometimes more producer? Does your role shift across these projects?
Owen Underhill 15:20 Well, I'm the conductor of the ensemble, so I am a member of the ensemble, but I did compose Flying White.
Speaker 3 15:29 project because I'm a personal and pristine body for Chinese traditional instruments and
Owen Underhill 15:36 And so I was, and also Dorothy Chang was involved with that as a composer. So sometimes I'm involved as a creator as well, but the projects that we've done like that are tend to be so original that, you know, you feel a little bit like an artistic director of the project as a whole.
Gabrielle Martin 16:02 Yeah, yeah. And so you kind of mentioned that one of the benefits of partnering with Push was to bring in different audiences and that it was kind of a good home for those more interdisciplinary projects.
Gabrielle Martin 16:20 Yeah, how do you see, I'm curious, you know, having had a relationship with the festival since the early days, how you see the cultural context of the festival and its significance in Vancouver.
Owen Underhill 16:31 Yeah, well I mean push brought in from around the world like leading innovative cutting -edge projects that otherwise would never have come to Vancouver. But they also had a role with local artists and helped, you know, integrate them with other artists from around the world.
Owen Underhill 16:58 So it was, push has definitely had a fantastic impact over the
Speaker 3 17:08 you know, past 20 years or so.
Gabrielle Martin 17:11 What are you what are you excited about now with a turning point ensemble?
Owen Underhill 17:15 Working next year, we're doing a production of Kaya Sarajajo's music. She just passed away of a Finnish composer and her music is so colorful and beautiful and hardly ever done in Vancouver because it's for very large ensembles and so that's the kind of thing we'd like to present up close to Vancouver audiences and we're always working on recording projects so we just did a recording project of Nova Han who's a local composer of some large work she wrote for us and so that's just been released and we're trying to dream up some more dance projects but usually those take two or three years to
Gabrielle Martin 18:13 Okay.
Owen Underhill 18:14 put in the hopper. Yeah.
Gabrielle Martin 18:16 It sounds like you're very busy, which is exciting, working on all sorts of collaborations and new projects. Of all the projects that were train point ensemble projects that were presented at Push, what would you say is like your most dear project, the one that you have the fondest memories of?
Owen Underhill 18:38 Well, I have fond memories of several of them. Definitely the Zappa, Varese, and John Oswald projects, one of them. The Radio Rewrite was some ways a similar project because it involved the music of Johnny Greenwood from Radiohead, who most people know that he's written for film and so on.
Owen Underhill 19:03 But he also is interested in unusual instruments like the And Martineau. It's a bit like the Theremin and the music of Olivier Messiaen. The similar way that Zappa was interested in Varese, so that Radio Rewrite project included Johnny Greenwood's music and so we were able to have a bit of a connection with him through his publisher and also we had on that program a couple of newer works involving And Martineau and a big piece by Steve Reich.
Owen Underhill 19:50 Which is called Radio Rewrite, which is actually based on a couple of Radio Ants songs. And I guess the sort of genre busting, if you could say, projects like that, where it seemed a really natural ones to do with Push.
Owen Underhill 20:14 And those generally did very well also with audience and interest, local interest.
Gabrielle Martin 20:24 Thanks so much, Ellen. Oh, you're welcome.
Ben Charland 20:30 That was a special episode of Push Play in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run January 23rd to February 9th, 2025 in Vancouver, British Columbia. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.
Ben Charland 20:51 And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charlin. A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.
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| 20 Jan 2025 | Ep. 55 - Finding and Meeting the Other (What is Already Here?) | 00:40:10 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Majula Drammeh and Joseph K Kasua. They are presenting a special studio showing and discussion of What is already here? at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival. Check out the show on February 7 at the VIVO Media Arts Centre. Show Notes Gabrielle, Majulah and Joseph discuss:
About Majula Drammeh I am a performer, dancer, dramaturg and performance maker based in Stockholm and Malmö, Sweden. My main focus is on interactive, participatory immersive work within the fields of dance and performance as well as somatic practices. I am looking to explore how these can act as a bridge for people to participate and discover themselves in an open, permissive and inclusive way. In the interpersonal. I am interested in giving space for both audience/ participants and performers to deal with their own bodily identity and the political baggage it carries. And I strive to present interactive performing arts where the body of the minority is the norm, and hopefully contribute to the decline of history-less of which the non-white body is consigned too. As a performer and dancer my focus is on using somatic practices and experiences to create a focus that is vulnerable, present and invites the participant to be present with themselves too. I use my choreographic and improvisational experiences to find methods of meeting the room, space and objects to create a relational bridge to them. These are also methods I communicate in my teaching. I work as a dramaturg for mainly dance artists and I am intrigued with processes and the path they lead the work on. How, with close attention, the process reveals the very core of an artist’s work and clarifies what decisions need to be made when we listen closely. I grew up in Hjulsta/Tensta suburb of Stockholm, Sweden. I studied at the Dance and Circus School in Stockholm in 2006 and received my bachelor’s degree in dance from Laban Center London (2009) and in 2021.I received a master’s degree in performing arts from Stockholm University of the Arts. I have been teaching at Stockholm University of Arts and The Royal Danish Art Academy amongst others. About Joseph K. Kasua Born in Lubumbashi in 1995, Joseph K. Kasau Wa Mambwe is a visual artist, filmmaker and author based in Lubumbashi. He holds a degree in Information and Communication Sciences from the University of Lubumbashi, specialising in Performing Arts (Audiovisual, Cinema and Theatre).His passion for art started very early in Lubumbashi's cinemas, and was nourished by multiple visual influences that later formalised in his artistic practice, which is situated at the intersection of cinema, video art, photography, creative writing and addresses in his work the complexity of memory and identity in a postcolonial urban context. He is a fellow of the Trame 2022 residency at the Cité Internationale des Arts in Paris, of the Delfina Foundation residency programme in England on food politics, of the Tri-continental Quilombo project (DRC - SWITZERLAND - BRAZIL) from 2021 to 2023. Kasau Wa Mambwe also works as a Fixer, Assistant Director, Editorial Assistant and as a Communication Officer for African and Western structures and collectives, among others Les Films de la Passerelle (Belgium), the Lubumbashi Biennale (2019), Museum of Tervuren (Belgium), PODIUM Esslingen (Germany) and GROUP50:50 (DRC - SWITZERLAND - Germany). Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Majula joined the conversation from Stockholm, Sweden, and Joseph joined from Lubumbashi in the DR Congo. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights interpersonal processes and works that give birth to themselves. I'm speaking with Majula Drammeh and Joseph K. Casao-Wamambue, Push artists in residence who will be developing their work, what is already here, in residency during the festival and sharing the studio showing and conversation on February 7th, 2025. In a world fixated on unyielding technological progress, this interactive theater installation in development urges audiences to reconnect with the tangible through a resounding affirmation of collective belonging. Set in a subterranean laboratory built from discarded electronic waste, the work in development draws on ancestral wisdom and Afro-futurist divisions, inviting participants to challenge their digital dependencies and rediscover what it means to be human in a time of digital alienation. Born and based in Lubumbashi, Democratic Republic of Congo, Joseph K. Casao-Wamambue holds a degree in information and communication sciences from the University of Lubumbashi with a specialization in performing arts. From theater and cinema to photography, installation and creative writing, Joseph's work addresses the complexity of memory and identity in a post-colonial urban context. Rooted in dance and choreography, Majula Drammeh's artistic practice explores how the performing arts can provide spaces for interpersonal relationships, addressing vulnerability and challenging societal norms. Her work often exists in non-traditional theater spaces and asks the participants to fully emerge themselves in topics such as time consumerism in a capitalist age. Here's my conversation with Joseph and Majula. It's really nice to be in conversation with you today. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you more about this project, about your practice. Thank you for joining me. I know it's evening where you are, it's morning where I am. I'm going to start by just acknowledging where I am joining this conversation from. So I am on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh. And as a settler here, it's important. I'm responsible to continue my thinking and education on what the history of colonization looks like here and its implications and ongoing effects today. And I think something that's really interesting is thinking and learning I've done around the different types of colonialism and their impacts today and how that affects what colonization looks like today or neocolonialism based on where we are.
03:01 With my own background, my father coming from Zimbabwe, colonization now looks much different than it has here in Canada. And so, you know, I think that's important in framing the difference specifically between settler colonialism, where large numbers of settlers claim land, become a majority, and often employ a logic of elimination, engineering the disappearance of the original inhabitants versus an extractive colonialism where colonizers, you know, destroy or push away indigenous inhabitants to access resources, but more typically depend on mediation and the labor of the indigenous peoples. And and then other forms like planter or trade colonialism, and this is there's one kind of very simple and nice reference, a typology of colonialism by Nancy Shoemaker. That's a great reference. And so that's kind of some of my thinking today that I wanted to share. And Joseph and Majula, could you please share where you are joining the conversation from?
04:11 So I'm joining the conversation from Lumbashi. Lumbashi is, I can say, the second biggest city in the Republic Democratic of Congo. It's a city full of mining and exploitation, so it's really related to the colonialism history that you were talking about. And I was born here, and I've always acknowledged that Lumbashi, as a qualification, they say that it's a copper city. And for all my life, I haven't really been in touch with the copper, so that's symbolized the fact that our land don't really belong to us. So there are so many people, so many countries that are under us, and taking all the decisions that belong to us. So yeah, I'm joining from this territory.
05:24 and I am joining from Stockholm, Sweden, and actually I have no roots to this country because my mother is from Finland and my father is from Gambia and they ended up here because of work in the 70s. So in Sweden we call people that have a parent of colour and a parent from another country people of in betweenesship. So we're in between wherever we are basically. So yeah and I think this has coloured my experience as a human throughout my entire life and I mean Sweden is a very rich and very social democratic country or it has been until quite recently it's more right-wing now and I mean it's not dealt so much with its past in terms of I mean it actually still has in one sense a colony in the far north with the Sami people who are the Swedish indigenous people and it's still a very very hot topic here and it's just recently passed maybe I would say eight to ten years that Sweden has actually also acknowledged the fact that they were dealing with slave trade and owned a colony in St. Bartelemy. So yeah I'm in all of that mess with my in betweeness ship.
07:16 Thank you for sharing that. I want to dive right into talking about what is already here. So this is a project born from thinking on the pandemic's impact on the way we socialize and the wider dematerialization of social and human relations. So it stemmed from a 2022 interactive installation of Joseph's Terre toi rue men or human territories. And what is already here, your collaborative project is a futuristic Afro play in which you explore a number of conspiracy theories about surveillance and talk about Africa as the place from which all the resources and green energies destined to save the world from its climate crisis are drawn. Can you talk about the evolution of the project both in its form and in the research trajectories or themes explored?
08:05 I think, of course, the project started out as a personal reflection, as you said, but now Modula is here. And for me, I think it's changed everything. I mean, procedures, approach, and even form. And so my background is from theater, but I've made a kind of big detour in video, in film, and visual art. And Modula came from a dance background, mainly. So our meeting made us rethink the form we wanted to give to our project, in a way, I can say. So it was this kind of regeneration that led us to think of a border piece, in a way, in which dance for words, words for sounds, for play, for let's say for life. And then Modula and I, I don't know, should I talk about how we met? That's what you told me. How we started the project.
09:22 But I would also love to hear more about, can you talk about the evolution of the project, both in its form and in the research trajectories or the themes explored, the more you started to now, going back to the beginning.
09:38 In 2022, I started a reflection on the project and at that moment, I was calling it a reboot, reboot because I wanted to reboot myself, considering myself as a machine because I studied communication and mass media sciences. After the school, I was working with so much artists, festival, art space as a community manager sometimes, but communication officer, mostly, and I remember that time I had often five Instagram, five Twitter, five Facebook accounts, and at a certain moment, I wanted to, let's say, to reconnect a bit because I realized that I was more connected to people who were far from me and I was really far from people who were close to me. So I started thinking about this situation in a way, and then I had to develop the project into a residency in Switzerland, where I prefer to call the project Terre d'Oruma in French, human territory, because I realized that since the pandemic, we have been calling to, let's say, to end with physical meeting with social interaction, but then I started to think, we were already in that situation before with our phone, with too much screen around us, so we were in touch with people, but not really, and then the lockdown made us think really about this situation, because then we had a kind of official restriction so that, okay, don't meet people, don't talk to people, don't be in touch with people, so I mean, this in a way amplified the reflection that I had, and I remember that I wanted to call the project Terre d'Oruma because I was in need of meeting people in different territories, in different places, so all the residency that I wanted to be going out, meeting people, discussing with them, and kind of creating a map of a certain humanity that I was in lack of, and while in this residency, I met Madula in a very interesting festival in Riga, and Madula was talking about those things, the same as me, so we're like, okay, and then we start discussing, we start growing the conversation, and then I remember that the discussion that I had with Madula helped me a lot to construct, to build the performance that I was working on in Switzerland, so once I did that, I was like, okay, the next step of the project was supposed to be some things taking plus more physical, and I know that I've been far away with those visual art projects mostly, exhibition, installation, and I would love to experience something more physical because, yeah, in a way the project needs something like this, and I couldn't see someone else with whom I could develop it if it was not Madula, so I asked her if she could join the project, the adventure, and yeah, she was okay, so here we are.
13:25 During the pandemic, first I was like, yeah, now we have the possibility to be in solitary. But we weren't quite the opposite. We were on the phones. Everything possible was made through the lens, like all meetings and all decisions. Everything just went more and more into the digital. And I was worried about how do we, how can we won't be able to reverse this? And I don't mean it's a bad thing. I mean, we wouldn't have been able to do what we're doing here now if it wasn't because of Zoom, basically. But I mean, I have always worked in the interpersonal. So that became really hard for me to do any kind of work in that sense. And I was also worried about social media addiction and all these addictions that come along with using these devices and started to read more on that. And also with inspiration from like meditation practice and practice from moving with other bodies as a dancer. I felt that now is my time to be off the phone. I mean, after the pandemic, I decided to get a dumb phone so I don't even own a smartphone anymore because I wanted to be with humans and meet them. And on that trajectory, I met Joseph who was in the same thought as me, as myself. So yeah, and came from a totally other background than I did. And also didn't think in the frame of like, because for me, it's very challenging to see things in the boxes of this is theater, this is dance, this is performance, this is visual art. Because I don't believe that we actually express ourselves in those framed ways. I mean, we're complex. So our art will be complex. And so when he said that he's open for like doing something that has anything necessary for it to be art that we want to put in it, I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. So yeah, that's the art.
16:00 And I'm hearing these, and also like reading from what you've written about the project, this thinking around social networks, the effect of both the pandemic and our, you know, digital technology on social networks and how these are redefining the social and even ethical codes of how humans interact and make the world this is something you've written about. And, and this, what is already here also is looking at surveillance and green energies and its relation to extraction of resources from Africa. How, how has it, how have those themes? How did those connect with the project for you from what you've been talking about in terms of like how we socialize in the digital technology implications?
16:50 And I can say a few words and then perhaps Joseph wants to say something too. But for me, it wasn't so much about like, oh, should we work with these materials? I mean, coming partly from Africa, you see how resources are taken from countries and made into devices and, you know, we see it with our own eyes. So we have I think we just have that I felt when we discussed that we like have this common pre-knowledge of like, we know it's not just the phone you get in the store. We know that the track of where it comes from and where the like contents of the phone with the actual physical parts come from and where they end up, you know, as well. And so for me, it felt not so strange to have that connected to this. So it becomes like a zooming out. Like if we look at if we go from the from the social media and zoom out and look at the broader picture, that's kind of where we are, you know. So then we could bring those things into the to the work. So that's how how I do it.
18:08 As you mentioned, she's also from, she has African origin. So, I mean, in a way what is already here is some things that we really want to embody in a way, our history. And I'm someone who came from Congo. We know all the politics and all the, where the resource came from. But in a way we were thinking about to bring this narrative on a political level in a way. So that to just make people think about, I think that what is already here is some things also very related to Majula and I as humans first. And so as human, as we belong to some history, we belong to some narratives. And we wanted to bring those narratives on stage with us. So it's not just Joseph coming to play some things that have been experienced. I also want to come with all my context, with all the politics around me. And that's in a way pushes to talk about where the others resource come from. They come from Africa, from Latin America, from also so, but the context we know the most is maybe where we come from. I mean, Congo for me. And for example, the lithium staff, the electronics car, all the world that you know in Congo, in a way it supports those production. The green vehicle, the people who paid the tributes, they are from Africa and mainly from Congo. In a way it's good to bring those narratives on the stage and to tell to the world that, okay, this is what is happening. So me coming here as a patient is not only talking about my disease, it's also to talk about the disease of all my people, all the region where I come from. Because it's like almost three hours from where I am, when they took the lithium and everything. So yeah, it's a reflection that, so because I believe that art is not just being in one state and creating beauty. I mean, we start do art when we end up with the beauty and we start telling story about our story, let's say. So yeah, for me, in a way that was really important. And I really like the fact that Madula and I share that need.
21:00 The work, in terms of the form, with Hertwech Eman, it started with installation, interactive installation, but there was, because it was interactive, my understanding is that your body, the bodies of the people were implicated in terms of like how they moved in space and that it was not like an installation and that there was some sort of exchange and conversation happening in the process. I wasn't there, I didn't, so you know, you can fully paint the picture if you'd like or correct me where I'm mistaken, but now it's going in the direction of a play, though I know that you both work in a very transdisciplinary way, but you describe it as a futuristic afro play and I know you've spoken about the need to bring the body and have the body more central in the form, I'm curious, how you, like I'd just love to hear you talk more about form, about why this this form, what you mean by a futuristic afro play.
22:11 I come from theater normally. And then I make a big detour into visual art, cinema, video. And in my part, I wanted in a way to come back to where I start from, which is theater. I don't really know why. So this is some things that came to me recently. And so I was thinking about, OK, the next step of this project going to be something physical. I was thinking about the performance. I didn't know what exactly. And then when I met Majula, and as I was saying, once Majula came in the project, so it was a different project. It was some things that were supposed to change in a way because it's not only me, it's also Majula. So she also bring what she is in the project. So in this kind of free adaptation, so we were thinking about how we can express through the art our encounter. Because not only the encounter of Joseph and Majula is also an encounter of video, of dance, worlds, of body. So how can those elements share a space in a way? So it's not really a question that we had already announced. But we think that the play and the need of the play is to find an answer in a very formal way. So yeah, a little bit complicated.
23:57 Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I don't come from theater. But my experience in interpersonal and participatory interactive work is that you need to have an excuse to behave in a certain way, or to talk about things or to ask the participants to do something. And that's where the word play can be helpful. Because we say we're doing a play, but it doesn't mean that it's just like a fantasy, it's whatever. It can be a play really close to our reality that we live in. But we can use that play to go places, think about things and present them in ways that we're not used to or comfortable with. And especially if we are asking the participants to also be transparent or reflect or feel something, then the place is a really good excuse to do that. And also in terms of dramaturgy, we can use the format of a play to go places. We have to go to the next, to the next, to the next, kind of. And also the idea of Afro play, for me, is a really nice way to say it's not, it might not be what you're expecting when you go to the theater. Because it's speaking maybe in another way in terms of it's not a theater with a stage and before an audience and how come they're talking and now I don't understand what they're saying or now she's dancing. What I said earlier, it doesn't have to have a strict form because it's still giving birth to itself, kind of. It's not yet there. So it's about this, yeah, for me it's a lot about that, to be able to create something that will probably not be what you expect when you go to a performance.
26:01 Now, thank you. I want to talk more about your artistic approaches.
26:07 Can I just add, I was trying to use the excuse there, because when Madula talked about the excuse, I remember. I mean, we also use the future as an excuse to, you know, because what is the future for us? I think the future is the place of invention, of creation, is the place where we put all our thoughts in. So it might be wrong. Maybe it's not true what we are saying, but yeah, it is in the future. So we never know. We don't know what will happen in the future. So in a way, we take this Afro-futurist form in order to put our thoughts as person with all the context around, and to address some political issue, question, not only political, but also human issue, to address them in a very free form. So the future is also this escape space where we can escape from our imaginary, and yeah, and propose an inventive world in which we live, Madula and I, and all the people that are working with us on the project.
27:27 And I also now want to hear a little bit more about your collaboration from your different points of departure as artists, which you've been speaking to, but yeah, you know, Joseph your work spans theatre, film, photography, installation, creative writing, and a theme you've been working with, or, you know, generally your work is interested in addressing the complexity of memory and identity in a post colonial urban context. And Majula, your work explores bodily identities and the political nuances associated with them, generally through dance and interactive performance so I would love to hear you've spoken about it a bit but I'd love to hear more about what drew you to collaborate with each other and how your practices complement each other and actually more so the latter because yeah you've really spoken about you know the common commonality you found together. So maybe you can speak more about how in this process, your practices complement each other or where there's tension points.
28:30 I mean, I can talk a bit about the, I mean, what's great in the CoLab is that we have so much knowledge. We have so much width of knowledge because we come from so different artistic backgrounds, which means also that we're curious on each other and how the artistic ideas that we have, which also means that, I mean, when Josef was in Stockholm in March this year, March-April, I think the first week we were just talking, talking, talking about different ideas and really taking them in, like, oh, could we do that? You know, it never ended because we were willing to, like, let's take everything in. Let's write everything down. And I think we're both very open in terms of process for putting ideas out there. And then at some point, yeah, we looked at that like, OK, here are some things that we actually feel that we want to keep and continue. So I think, I think we were lucky in the sense that the both of us are curious and are open minded. And I also get the feeling that none of us is too, like, too, like, hooked on. This is my, this is my artistic expression. Rather, like, what will my artistic expression be in this collaboration, I think. And that's what makes it work. And we're willing to try each other's ideas. So I would say that, yeah, that's kind of where we need.
30:05 In a way, the process, it's about losing control. I think, in a way. I just remember it's just something that doesn't. I just remember that the first time, when I started this project, I wanted to experience something that's physical. So I created this world installation with motherboards. And I was like, OK, I'm not going to work with video. I'm not going to work with immaterial material, in a way. But I remember that, as a videographer, I did a video in that process. Even if it was to document what I was doing, but I did a short movie at the end. So when I'm coming in a collaboration, it's like I'm coming with everything that I know. But in this project, it's a bit also different. So trying to do the things I do the less, in a way. And as I said, it has been a while I didn't play. I didn't perform in a very theatrical way. So it's also challenging each other to, OK. I remember that even in the process, we were like, OK. Ah, that's how you work. OK. I agree. OK, let's go. Ah, that's how you work. OK. So it's something of also losing control to find the other, and to meet the other. So yeah, for me, the process is more about that.
31:43 Can you talk about the version of what is already here that will be developed during the Push Festival while you're artists in residence? Yeah, because my understanding is that conversation with local artists, researchers, public who are thinking about these issues and how they affect society, but that conversation and that exchange with local community is really important to how you will develop this iteration of the work and that you are planning to also open the studio at different points to bring people in. Can you talk about, yeah, what you have envisioned for your process at Push so far?
32:34 A part of it will be to build the installation. That's a big part of it, of course, to actualize the envisioned space that we have in which the performance will happen, the play. And another part is also connecting back to this humanity. For me, at least, it's really important to create the space. Sure, it's futuristic, and it probably will be quite like out there. But when people come to that space, they feel that this place is, it concerns them. And we can't do that if we don't meet people, if we don't listen to what they have to say, what they feel, and any thoughts they have about the topics. Because otherwise, it's based on the thoughts of me and Joseph only. But we want to have, it's complex, and we want to have that complexity within the play. And also important fact, we need to meet people live. And also, I mean, we have been talking, and I've been reading on some about these issues, like about being addicted to phones, or about techno-feudalism. And I feel the importance of having those discussions to be able for that to color the whole work, basically.
34:06 So we had a first residency in March, April, as Majula mentioned it. And we tried to work a little bit on the dramaturgy. And our need is that in November, in the framework of the Biennale of Lubumbashi, to meet another residency. Unfortunately, Majula can't join because of some sanitary problem, issues that are in combo, but we'll make it online. So we mostly working on the sound of the piece with Frank Mocca. So we wanted to take the time in Vancouver to start thinking on the light level of the project and all the installation level of the project. So I know that we couldn't have enough time to create the whole installation, but the idea is to rethink now the installation in a platform. Because what we had is like an installation that I display in the gallery, but now we have to think it's in a platform. So we probably start by there and to see what could be the possibility. How can we adapt it and see in the meantime to continue also on the dramaturgy with Majula, because we all be there. So that's why we're trying to bring with us our friend, Tabiso, who is like working a lot on light level. So to start those reflections with him in that space and to experiment. So we don't know what would be the, you know, the outputs, but we know that we'll experiment a lot and we'll try a lot to see how it can take, the play can take the space in a sort of thing on the sonography with different people. That is also interesting for us to meet not only professionals, but also people, because we need to start writing, to start understanding what are the concerns of the people, what are our concerns. So those interactions will help us in a way to structure, to also to say that, okay, let's lose again control and put more of what people really think about the topic, not us. Yeah, I think in a way it will be that.
37:03 I'm so looking forward to it. I'm so excited that this is happening. I think that and this is, you know, our first artist in residency. There may have been some earlier ones. It hasn't been like, you know, we're in our 20th anniversary year for 2025. I'm sure there's been there have been some artists in residence here or there, maybe in, you know, informal or formal ways over the years, but really it hasn't been something that we've been doing. And I'm really excited about supporting the development of new work and also exactly the process you're talking about, inviting our communities to get to know you, to get to know your practice and to engage in these conversations. I'm thrilled that you'll be here for the majority of the festival and that, you know, that people will have the opportunity to step inside your into your world and see what you're working on. Joseph, we also met in Riga at the Homo Novus festival. And so that's just been a really, it's so nice that a conversation, one conversation, you know, there has led to this and led to me meeting you, and hopefully Tabisa will join as well. So thank you so much for being in conversation with me today and introducing our listeners to your approach.
38:25 Thank you so much for having us. We're really looking forward to coming to your part of the world and to meet the people. Yeah.
38:38 Yeah, as we've seen in Israel, we say, yeah, so which mean, thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot for the conversation. Because I think that every conversation that we had on the project help us to understand better what we want to do in a way. So that's the incredible things with discussion. I wish the play could be a discussion.
39:01 Who knows?
39:05 You just heard Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Majula Drame and Joseph K. Kasao Mobambwe, who will be doing an artist residency at Push Festival this year, which runs January 23rd to February 9th. A studio showing of their work in progress, What Is Already Here?, will be presented with Vivo Media Arts Center on Friday, February 7th. Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and the lovely Ben Charlam. Original music by Joseph Kiribayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. This year marks the 20th festival for Push International Performing Arts Festival. If you'd like to explore more of Push over the last 20 years, please look for our special 20th anniversary retrospective Push Play season. And for more information on the 2025 Push Festival, and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media.
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| 16 Jul 2024 | Ep. 20 - Collaboration and Collision (2006) | 00:30:31 | |
Gabrielle chats with Sherry J. Yoon and Jay Dodge, Artistic Directors of Boca del Lupo, about their early productions at the PuSh Festival from 2006, and how they’ve witnessed change over the years. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin, Sherry and Jay discuss:
About Boca del Lupo Led by Artistic Directors Sherry J. Yoon and Jay Dodge. Sherry J. Yoon is a co-creator and director of the company’s original productions and Jay Dodge’s writing, performances and designs are central in Boca del Lupo’s shows. During the tenure of the pair, the company has received numerous awards including Jessies for Outstanding Design, Outstanding Production, Significant Artistic Achievement and Outstanding Performance; the Critic’s Choice Award for Innovation; and the Alcan Performing Arts Award. For Boca del Lupo, collaboration is the core tenet of our creativity. Working across cultures and disciplines our productions are energized by the collision and confluence of difference. Since our inception in 1996, our artistic focus has been one that explores cultural hybridity and interdisciplinary through consciously convening artists from diverse backgrounds and giving them voice within the work through our established processes. We also have a well-established track record in touring, a strong level of engagement with our professional arts services organizations and meaningful outreach into the community. We proudly take our place as a theatre company that relentlessly expands creative possibilities through unprecedented innovations and partnerships with a repertoire that includes 60 original creations and unique presentations. Boca del Lupo has a foundation in theatre but has evolved into a multi-disciplinary company often partnering with artists and organization that are beyond the conventional boundaries of our form and our sector. About Sherry J Yoon Sherry J. Yoon, Artistic Director of Boca del Lupo, is a theatre creator and director with a passion for creating new performances through collaborative pursuits. With Boca del Lupo, Sherry has co-created more than 35 productions, including: Fall Away Home, an intergenerational site-specific production in the forest of Stanley Park; Photog, a large-scale show that toured across Canada and was created with interviews from prominent conflict photographers; and You Are It, as part of the Silver commissions from the Arts Club Theatre that investigates the complex dynamics between female friendships. During Sherry’s tenure, the company has received numerous awards, including the Rio Tinto Alcan Performing Arts Award, and Jessie Awards for Outstanding Production, Design, Actor, Ensemble, as well as the Critic’s Choice Innovation Award. Her productions have toured festivals and venues across Canada, Europe and Mexico. She co-created an online exhibition of Expedition, an iterative collaboration between Boca del Lupo and the Performance Corporation, and working on Net Zero, an interactive theatre installation about climate change that involves the audience charging a battery with a stationary bicycle. She is also a freelance director who has worked at the Richmond Gateway Theatre, Bard on the Beach, the Vancouver International Children’s Festival and at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa Canada. About Jay Dodge The Artistic Producer of Boca del Lupo since 2001, Jay Dodge was also part of the founding collective in 1996. During his tenure, the company has won the peer-assessed Alcan Performing Arts Award, and several Jesse Richardson Theatre Awards including seven nominations for the Critic’s Choice Award for Innovation and the Patrick O’Neill Award for best anthology with Plays2Perform@Home. Jay is a passionate set and video designer with Jessie Richardson Awards in both of those categories as well as a published playwright including a contribution to Boca del Lupo’s Red Phone project. His artistry is one of innovation and daring and his one man show, PHOTOG. featured interactive video, stunt rigging and verbatim text, touring to World Stage, Prismatic, Festival Trans Amerique and PuSh. Currently serving on the national board of the Professional Association of Canadian Theatres, Jay also has special interest in creative space making including as co-founder of celebrated colocation space PL1422, co-founder of the Granville Island Theatre District, and as project consultant for Video In/Video Out and Left of Main. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle Martin 00:02 Gabrielle Martin 00:21 Gabrielle Martin 00:35 Gabrielle Martin 00:55 Gabrielle Martin 01:11 Gabrielle Martin 01:17 Gabrielle Martin 01:33 Gabrielle Martin 01:53 Sherry J. Yoon 02:06 Jay Dodge 02:08 Jay Dodge 02:09 Jay Dodge 02:34 Jay Dodge 03:04 Jay Dodge 03:15 Jay Dodge 03:25 Jay Dodge 03:41 Jay Dodge 04:05 Jay Dodge 04:28 Gabrielle Martin 04:31 Jay Dodge 04:37 Jay Dodge 04:51 Sherry J. Yoon 04:55 Sherry J. Yoon 05:08 Sherry J. Yoon 05:30 Gabrielle Martin 05:45 Sherry J. Yoon 05:48 Gabrielle Martin 06:18 Sherry J. Yoon 06:22 Sherry J. Yoon 06:40 Jay Dodge 07:03 Jay Dodge 07:16 Jay Dodge 07:34 Jay Dodge 07:49 Jay Dodge 08:14 Gabrielle Martin 08:15 Jay Dodge 08:17 Jay Dodge 09:09 Sherry J. Yoon 09:12 Jay Dodge 09:14 Sherry J. Yoon 09:21 Jay Dodge 09:29 Sherry J. Yoon 09:43 Jay Dodge 09:45 Gabrielle Martin 09:47 Sherry J. Yoon 10:05 Jay Dodge 10:13 Jay Dodge 10:24 Gabrielle Martin 10:35 Jay Dodge 10:37 Sherry J. Yoon 10:50 Sherry J. Yoon 11:22 Sherry J. Yoon 11:42 Sherry J. Yoon 11:56 Jay Dodge 12:06 Jay Dodge 12:22 Sherry J. Yoon 12:35 Gabrielle Martin 13:13 Gabrielle Martin 13:30 Jay Dodge 13:47 Sherry J. Yoon 13:50 Jay Dodge 14:00 Jay Dodge 14:14 Jay Dodge 14:32 Jay Dodge 14:43 Jay Dodge 14:56 Jay Dodge 15:16 Jay Dodge 15:32 Sherry J. Yoon 15:35 Jay Dodge 15:40 Jay Dodge 15:51 Gabrielle Martin 16:00 Sherry J. Yoon 16:02 Gabrielle Martin 16:04 Jay Dodge 16:12 Gabrielle Martin 16:14 Sherry J. Yoon 16:17 Gabrielle Martin 16:22 Sherry J. Yoon 16:25 Sherry J. Yoon 16:41 Sherry J. Yoon 16:56 Jay Dodge 17:01 Gabrielle Martin 17:04 Sherry J. Yoon 17:08 Gabrielle Martin 17:41 Sherry J. Yoon 17:45 Jay Dodge 18:08 Sherry J. Yoon 18:11 Gabrielle Martin 18:33 Jay Dodge 18:38 Jay Dodge 18:47 Jay Dodge 18:59 Sherry J. Yoon 19:15 Sherry J. Yoon 19:30 Jay Dodge 19:37 Jay Dodge 19:39 Jay Dodge 19:50 Gabrielle Martin 21:11 Sherry J. Yoon 21:21 Jay Dodge 21:44 Jay Dodge 21:57 Sherry J. Yoon 22:03 Jay Dodge 22:05 Sherry J. Yoon 22:13 Gabrielle Martin 22:20 Gabrielle Martin 22:41 Sherry J. Yoon 22:54 Sherry J. Yoon 23:13 Sherry J. Yoon 23:30 Sherry J. Yoon 23:52 Jay Dodge 24:06 Jay Dodge 24:26 Jay Dodge 24:47 Jay Dodge 25:08 Jay Dodge 25:28 Jay Dodge 25:50 Sherry J. Yoon 25:57 Sherry J. Yoon 26:10 Gabrielle Martin 26:16 Sherry J. Yoon 26:32 Sherry J. Yoon 26:43 Jay Dodge 26:56 Jay Dodge 27:15 Jay Dodge 27:31 Jay Dodge 27:53 Jay Dodge 28:06 Sherry J. Yoon 28:16 Ben Charland 28:24 Ben Charland 28:40 Ben Charland 28:59 | |||
| 27 Nov 2023 | Ep. 6 - Lorenzo: The radical potential of ‘entertainment’ | 00:30:24 | |
Ben Target discusses his belief in entertaining an audience above all. LORENZO runs Jan 18th-20th at Push Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Ben Target, writer and performer of LORENZO. They discuss how we treat the concept and theme of loss on stage, how Ben’s work has evolved from Fringe Festivals and standup comedy to his broader theatrical work today, and Ben’s mantra that “Entertainment is the engine, boring an audience is a crime and art must provide hope”. Gabrielle and Ben discuss:
About Ben Target Ben Target (he/they) is a multi-award-winning comedian, performance artist, writer, actor and director. He was born in Singapore and has lived a peripatetic life in London, Voorschoten, Houston, Jakarta and Paris. In 2011, he won the national stand-up accolade, the Leicester Mercury Comedian of the Year. In 2012, his debut comedy show Discover Ben Target was nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Award Best Newcomer, toured to Australia and New Zealand, and was filmed as a special for the streaming service NextUp Comedy. He returned to the Edinburgh Fringe with Hooray for Ben Target (2014), Imagine There’s No Ben Target (It’s Easy If You Try) (2015), Orangeade (2017) and Splosh! (2018). He has starred and co-starred in several comedy shows over the last decade, including Richard Gadd’s Waiting for Gaddot (Amused Moose Comedy Award for Best Show, 2015). As a director and dramaturg, Ben has worked with Kieran Hodgson (Edinburgh Comedy Award nominee 2015, 2016, 2018 and 2023), John Hastings, Rob Copland, Katie Pritchard, and more. He has written for Joe Lycett (BBC Three) and Jamali Maddix (Channel 4), and teaches stand-up comedy at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama, Soho Theatre and Angel Comedy. Land Acknowledgement Ben joins the podcast from London, UK. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin PuSh's Director of programming. And today's episode highlights the theatrical treatment of loss. I'm speaking with Ben Target, writer and performer of "Lorenzo", which will be presented at PuSh Festival January 18th to 20th, 2024. "Lorenzo" is a life affirming story about death with shadow puppetry and live carpentry. Ben is a multi-award-winning comedian, performance artist, writer, actor and director. He was born in Singapore and has lived a peripatetic life in London, Voorschoten, Houston, Jakarta and Paris. I'm honoured to share our discussion that looks at the intersection of comedy and tragedy in "Lorenzo" and more. Here's my conversation with Ben.
Gabrielle [00:00:54] Hello, I'm Gabrielle, the director of programming at the PuSh Festival, and I'm really thrilled to be speaking with Ben Target about "Lorenzo" and your wider practice. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation today.
Ben [00:01:06] Thank you so much. It's it's a delight to be here. I'm sitting in London and this is where my practice is based, but I'm so excited to be touring. I can't wait.
Gabrielle [00:01:19] Yeah, you'll be you'll be joining us myself and PuSh here on the Unceded stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), and I and PuSh we see it as our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose stolen territories we live and work and with the land itself. And that gives a bit of context for where we are. And I want to just jump right into getting to know a bit more about you, the show and your practice. So over a decade ago, you received a best Fringe Newcomer nomination at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. And in this summer of 2023, you brought "Lorenzo", which won the Edinburgh Fringe Festival's Fringe First Award. And how have you grown as an artist in this time between those two works? You know, bringing those two works to the Fringe. And how have your interests, process and relationship with your own work changed?
Ben [00:02:18] That's a big old question to start with. Yeah.
Gabrielle [00:02:20] It is.
Ben [00:02:22] But thanks for the shoutout for the accolades. So the first one, the Edinburgh Comedy Award, Best Newcomer, was for my debut show, which was a comedy show. I think I was quite different to many of my peers at the time in that I embraced comedy because it was seen as gauche and tacky, and I thought that was an added layer of fun cheekiness. And the Fringe First award was for new writing and theatre, and that's for the later show that I'm bringing to you guys. And so, yes, my my practice, even though it began in stand up comedy, is now also in theatre and I straddle the two. Still. I think that was a choice I made because the story of "Lorenzo" is is an uplifting one, a hopeful one, but it's also sad. There's an undercurrent of melancholia. And even though I began writing it for for the stand up circuit here in London, I noticed that I didn't really get permission from the audience to say things that were not exclusively funny. And it was quite scary for me to step into the theatre world, not having trained in it, not really feeling I had permission to be there. And also, I think feeling I didn't necessarily have the skills to write one long hour narrative, but I've loved it. I just feel I have so much permission to be everything I can be on stage and everything that this story needs me to be. And I found a real difference between theatre audiences and comedy audiences. Both I love playing to, but I felt theatre audiences were willing to sit and listen and be part of the project. Whereas comedy audiences, I feel, are waiting for me to impress them. And there's an excitement to that. There's a sort of a tension that naturally builds in the room. But I'm really interested to keep going in this kind of comedy theatre hybrid world. In terms of my relationship with my practice. I think I've I've matured as a person, thank God, because the person I was a decade ago was quite an arrogant, impulsive, impetuous, exuberant young person. And I had I had quite a big struggle with my mental health as I entered my 30s. And that sobered me and humbled me and I think made me a lot kinder and tender and open and honest. And I think my works got better for that. I think I approach things now so much more from what is it that I can do that serves the audience rather than acquisitional? What can I get out of this by being the funniest person in the room? So I feel a lot more peace in myself. And I think my artistic practice is, is is is a reflection of that. It's a lot healthier, it's a lot more collaborative, it's a lot more about what is the best story we can put in front of the audience rather than what is the story we can tell to make money?
Gabrielle [00:05:49] Yeah, that I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Having seen "Lorenzo", having experienced it, your generosity is incredible and that's why it's so evocative. And I think that's why the audience goes is so willing to go on this journey.
Ben [00:06:06] Thank you so much for saying that. I think the show was the show is on the surface about care, specifically palliative care. About a year and a bit that I spent looking after an old man who looked after me as a child. So there's a sort of reciprocal the reciprocal nature of care is explored within the show, intergenerational care. And I think I try to approach the show by dipping the audience gently in the experience of being cared for having to care about a subject and possibly projecting onto that subject their own experiences of care or thoughts about being carers in the future, which I think is is certainly in British society highly likely for most people in my generation that we're going to be in a caring relationship as our elders get to that stage because there's less support from the government, less support through the National Health Service. I think it's a reality that a lot of people are frightened of, but in my experience as one that is is, is can be tough but is worth firmly embracing. It's it's it's enriching. It's rewarding. Just one of the most important, amazing experiences I had. And yeah, it just feels like a real privilege. Such a weighted word but privilege to share it with the with with any audience, to be honest.
Gabrielle [00:07:44] Yeah. It really is a work that touches on really profound experiences that will and do affect all of us and that we often don't address together. So it does what theatre can be so wonderful at doing. It's that space where we can kind of collectively address some of these human experiences that we might not otherwise address socially in a collective manner. So "Lorenzo" was really your first kind of theatre theatre show, the debut theatre show, and you've spoken about the different relationship with the audience working between that form and a more classic kind of stand up comedy form. Is this the first time that you've had a work that really benefits from that treatment, or is it just the first time that you had the support and were and were able to kind of embrace that form? I'm just curious about I guess I'm trying to get at understanding, you know, what that form does for the themes and stories that you want to convey.
Ben [00:08:55] That's a great question. I think in terms of my evolution, my shows, my solo shows, whether comedy or now theatre, have always been theatrical. They've always been aesthetically pleasing, visually stunning. Sounds incredibly arrogant to say. But I do think of things first and foremost, visually and experientially. And this this show that I've just made is the first time that a theatre has come to me and said, 'we like your work, we like how you make work and we like this story that you have' and embraced it and supported it. And I felt really like I flourished. I've blossomed with that with that kudos from them early doors. And I think it's it's a testament really to what can happen when an artist is, I suppose, experienced enough to commit entirely to a project, but also get the backing, especially the financial backing to, to grow a show into the fullest of of their kind of imagining. But in terms of inhabiting the theatre space, it has been on my mind for several years. And that's because I sort of got known within the comedy scene, specifically at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe as an innovative boundary pushing comedian. A lot of my shows were high concepts. A lot of them used music and scent and sound interestingly, and I was always trying to find the laughs with those tools. But increasingly towards this project, my my shows began to be something other than comedy. I just wasn't brave enough as an artist to let go of my identity as a comedian because I'd lived in it for a decade and I was afraid of the solitude that can come with taking a new step into the unknown. And I think what helped was in 2019, I was commissioned by the Yard Theatre, which is a great space in East London that puts on a lot of radical work. And they were really interested in my relationship with audiences and how I work with audiences, often collaboratively to build shows in the moment. And I wrote them a narrative that they were really interested in developing with me. And then, of course, we all know what happened. The pandemic bulldozed it, but it didn't leave my brain. I was really sort of like, okay, if I made something again, maybe it would it would need to go away from comedy. And I think it was sort of serendipitous that all these ingredients were met or sort of arrived at a time that my recently departed director by departed, I mean, unfortunately, he died in April. He just he just saw my work and knew I was ready, ready for this chance. I'm incredibly grateful he gave it to me.
Gabrielle [00:12:19] And I want to talk about that. Yeah. The support you received to develop, to develop "Lorenzo" and to develop it as, as a as a work of theatre. You worked with multiple dramaturgs and outside eyes through the process. I'm curious, what was the best piece of advice or recommendation you received in the process?
Ben [00:12:38] Outside of my work as a performer, I'm I'm I earn most of my money as a as an outside eye/ dramaturg/director. And many of the shows that I've made with comedians, especially over the last few years, have done really well. And that raised my status within the community. I think when I got this opportunity I was really keen to to invite people into my process because so many artists had been that generous with me inviting them into this. And I was really lucky that I got to work with just some of my favourite people that I've met in the last ten years, and all of them had excellent advice from Joz Norris, who I've made multiple shows with, who suggested that the language of love within my family, which is a fracturous unit, is mischief. And that helped me hone in on things within the show that kept it light and ticking along when the subject matter got heavy. My my close creative collaborator, Letty Butler, who's an incredible writer, far, far more gifted than I am, she she was particularly useful giving me permission to put into the show things that I felt deeply but was was scared an audience wouldn't embrace. She really gifted me the courage to go for it. And I think part of that was because we have an amazing art project, an open journal. We don't live in the same city, but every day we sit down and we write a kind of no holds barred, what our day was like and how we were feeling and sharing that with somebody. Knowing someone's going to read that means there's no space to hide, which is quite freeing. Um, Adam, my, my dead director was really useful specifically at taking my writing style, which was quiet, flowery, superfluous, plenty of juicy turns of phrase which I loved in stand up because they can elicit a certain excitement from an audience. And he made me tone my writing down and keep it super simple. In fact, he used to sit next to me as I was writing, and any time he saw a sentence he didn't like, he would say, "All right, Hemingway, who the fuck do you think you are?" And that would make me so...
Gabrielle [00:15:17] That's amazing. Very direct.
Ben [00:15:22] He was direct. I mean, I could speak about these collaborators endlessly. Lee Griffiths, who was the director who came on board after he also lost his friend Adam. Lee, was just extraordinary at going round for round with me. When I make work, I commit to it fully all of my life: the money that I have, the time, and it can be quite overwhelming and not a lot of people want to come on that journey with you because it's it's intense and the risk is that it's not going to be fruitful. But he was there all the time. And something he did, which was great, was before every show or preview or work in progress offering or even script read, he would come up to me and he'd say, "okay, Ben, what is your one intention for this show?" And I would tell him, and sort of having that simple monorail to skate along, it meant the edits were so much easier in the moment because I could just let go of information that wasn't serving that singular purpose. And I think, yeah, there are so many people who gave me such wonderful advice. I think the big learning from it is to let people into your heart, people you trust. And as long as you're all committed to not serving a singular ego but trying to serve the project as a whole, it will likely come out for the best.
Gabrielle [00:16:52] Very eloquent. Thank you. And I'm curious because, you know, there's shadow puppetry in this work. There's fire breathing. Are there things that were supposed to be part of the project that you ended up cutting that you were? You know, I feel like fire breathing is one of those things where it's a great idea and then you realise, oh, okay, maybe, maybe not. But it stayed. So what about are there other things that, you know, in one version of "Lorenzo" you were going to have a completely different have some other pyrotechnics or something ambitious like that?
Ben [00:17:33] Yeah. I mean, there is a lot in this show. Some of it very much came from me. The fire breathing, for example. I was born in Singapore, so had some experience as a young, very young child with aspects of Cantonese culture. And I remember the sort of extraordinary Lunar New Year Festival with dancing dragons and poi and fire breathing as a child. So I sort of felt, even though "Lorenzo's" the main character's heritage is well, he was Cantonese but grew up in Hong Kong. I felt like that would be a big, fun, dumb, beautiful way to kind of telegraph an aspect of of celebrations within his and within his heritage. There was the woodwork idea, I do some woodwork on stage, came because Adam commissioned me to build him a set for a really popular show a few years ago, and he just he loved the fact that I was a comedian, but also a carpenter during the day. And he was just like, 'I've never seen wood work on stage. We should figure out how to do that.' And then I sort of ordered all the equipment and then he died and I was like, 'Now I have to figure out your idea.' I felt like he sort of played a prank on me in terms of stuff that didn't end up in the show. There was there was the idea of the blueprints of the separate houses that I talk about in which the the characters grow up in being projected onto the stage. So there's a London as a character is present for the audience to see. There was also the idea that what I might build during the show is Lorenzo's bed and that we sort of cut out on an empty bed in the middle of the stage. That was the idea that I would do the whole show on rollerblades with those kind of 1950s Americana, like fast food service trays, like serving the audience food throughout. But ultimately.
Gabrielle [00:19:55] Damn. Where's that "Lorenzo"? Just joking.
Ben [00:19:59] Yeah I think ultimately there was there came a point where there was just so much happening that I realised I was throwing ideas at the show because I was too scared to find that singular, juicy narrative that was exposed and raw but carefully kind of sewn into what was happening. And I just wanted whatever happened in the show to elevate the story. And so actually, Lee and I purposefully withheld the fire breathing, the set, which is beautiful, and this the shadow puppetry from the public until two about two days before the Fringe. So what we wanted was a bullet-proof story that could stand on its own as a piece of performance. And then when we got to the Fringe, we elevated everything with the added elements, and it just took off in a way that neither one of us expected at all. But it gives me heart that if you write, if you write a comprehensively good story, that's enough, that everything else is just fun. In fact,.
Gabrielle [00:21:10] You don't need to roll away.
Ben [00:21:14] Maybe that's the next show.
Gabrielle [00:21:15] Yeah. Still sounds pretty great. You have a mantra. Entertainment is the engine, boring an audience is a crime, and art must provide hope. How did you come to this mantra? How do you make a show that addresses dying and death entertaining and hopeful. And I'll just add to that I'm curious because earlier you spoke about audience expectations and entertainment you know comedy clearly falls more in the kind of entertainment area in Canada. It's really under very much underrecognized as an art form. And I think that there is sometimes an arts practice, a kind of a criticism of, of, of entertainment, right, in the contemporary arts world of 'pandering to the audience' or, yeah. So I'm curious, I just it was really it's really interesting to see that entertainment as a kind of fundamental piece of, of your practice.
Ben [00:22:18] Yeah. Thanks. I mean, thanks for reading the mantra out. I I'll try and dissect it. It's sad to hear that comedy, especially stand up, is not recognised in Canada necessarily as anything but something frivolous. I think it's an art form. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I think the funniest people I've ever met in my life are most of the Canadian standups I know in the UK who I mean, I hope there's some sort of big renaissance for Canadian stand up in general or just a recognition. I think it's very clear when you're standing on stage as a stand up, when the audience don't like you because they're not laughing. And I think spending a decade in that space where everything must lead to a laugh, well, it's a fairly gnarly puzzle. And it's it's so satisfying when you crack it. And what I love about stand up in particular as an art form is in comparison to so many of the others that I know of, it's far more accessible. And certainly in the U.K., I think the scene is relatively healthy in that you'll get people from multiple different backgrounds, life experiences onstage, sharing their point of view. And how enriching is that for an audience? Say you go to a comedy club, you might see four great acts. You're going to be laughing at different styles of delivery, but also different life experiences, and you walk away I think if you're really listening and embracing the work of far more rounded human. And I think I've become a better person in stand-up, it's been an incredibly educational experience. And I think I think if we look at like the history of theatre, it's it's there as well. I hate to bring up I hate to bring this guy up, but like, you know, Shakespeare is full of dick jokes. It's full of shit, piss, bodily fluids, interesting fights, great dynamism. And I think theatres were built to hold people of all backgrounds. And the one way you can guarantee that they're going to kind of collectively arrive at the same point together is by Is by great, honed entertainment. And I think it's just a vital weapon for an artist. If you can make someone feel something, then you can probably slip in your poignant point afterwards. So it's just quite basic really to me anyway. I'm not saying it's easy to do. It's really hard to do, I think, to entertain people. But it's it's first and foremost in my brain when I'm making something because I know it's the quickest route to success, basically, if I can make something fun and poppy. Then I can be a bit moody, then I can be a little wise or cutting or whatever it is that I'm trying to do for myself in the work. It's going to be the transaction is going to be best if it's first and foremost fun for the audience. Um, in terms of boring an audience, I mean, that's the tricky part with that is it's subjective. Like I've learned from stand up that it's so rare that you'll write like a joke or a piece that everyone's going to like. You're going to write a lot of stuff that most of the people in the room are going to be like, but you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea. And yet there is such a thing as objectively entertaining work. So I suppose what I mean by 'it's a crime to bore an audience' for me at least, is just remembering to check in in the moment with the audience when you're on stage watching them very carefully and trying to pick up cues from them as to whether they're in the story or slipping out of it. If they're slipping out of it, do I need to pick up the pace. If they're slipping out of it, do I need to bring in a change. If they're slipping out of it, do I need to address it immediately? Do I need to be direct? And I think it's a good reminder for me because I want everyone to come with me in the room, because togetherness ultimately is always my goal as an artist. I just think there's so much there's so much division in the world and how amazing is it that we can sit as a group of strangers in a strange space with someone on stage telling a story and by the end feel part of something? Some hope, you know, some sense that beyond political divisions, there's there's communal strands of togetherness working to keep this this this whole sort of ship righted somehow. And hope. I mean, it sounds kind of cheesy and maybe reductive, but I do think artists are their best agents of hope. And that comes in so many different forms from someone reflecting back at you how you are. The hopeful thing for me in that is if you don't like it, at least you can address it and try and change it. If you do like it, there's there's, there's glory in there and the feeling of self-possession and, you know, to being didactic teaching how one can do things better, to making you feel something. If it's if it's sadness, then there's the catharsis of crying. And also you discover what really matters to you and what you want to hold on to. If it's happiness and joy, well, that's a glorious thing to feel. So, yeah, that's quite a long winded answer, I feel. But that's that's where I sit with those three things.
Gabrielle [00:28:26] Well, it's beautiful and it's very clear. It's very clear in your work and it's very clear that you that you're a mature artist and you have a really thoughtful team behind you as well, because this is it, really. You know? Yeah. It wasn't. It wasn't by chance, but, you know, it was a sold out show at the Fringe, which is very hard to do, and won the Fringe First award. And we're just really lucky to have it opening the PuSh festival this upcoming year. So thanks so much for sharing more about your perspective and your work. And now that the audience has heard some of the things that aren't in "Lorenzo", they need to come to see what is in "Lorenzo".
Ben [00:29:10] Well, thank you so much. Thanks for embracing the show. I can't wait. I cannot wait to join you all.
Ben Charland [00:29:19] That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Ben Target, writer and performer of "Lorenzo", which will be presented at the upcoming PuSh Festival. My name is Ben Charland and I'm one of the producers of this podcast, along with Tricia Knowles. PuSh Play is supported by our community outreach Coordinator, Julian Legere. Original music from Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on PuSh International Performing Arts Festival visit pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @PuShFestival. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word. On the next PuSh play:
Patrick Blenkarn [00:29:59] Every night when we get to watch the first scene of asses.masses, we learn a lot about how this particular random ragtag group of 100 people has decided to conduct themselves in space at least to start.
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| 19 Nov 2024 | Ep. 38 - What Begins When the Show Ends? (SWIM) | 00:33:02 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Tom Arthur Davis and Jiv Parasram, co-creators of SWIM by Pandemic Theatre and Theatre Conspiracy. SWIM will be presented at the upcoming PuSh Festival, January 23 - February 9 in Vancouver. SWIM runs from January 30 to February 2 at VanCity Culture Lab and is presented with Touchstone Theatre and The Cultch. Show Notes Gabrielle, Tom and Jiv discuss:
About Tom Arthur Davis Tom is a theatre artist, producer, and project manager. Originally from the unceded territory of the Algonquin nation (Ottawa) with colonial lineage from the ancestral homelands of the Beothuk and the Mi’kmaq peoples (Newfoundland), he has recently relocated to Lekwungen territory (Victoria), after spending most of his career in Mississauga-Anishinaabe-Haudenosaunee territory (Toronto). In 2009, he co-founded Pandemic Theatre (then less distastefully named), for which he has acted as the Artistic Director since its inception. From 2018-2022, Tom worked with Why Not Theatre, acting as a Managing Producer where he led artist support programs such as RISER, Space Project, and ThisGen Fellowship. From 2014-2019, Tom worked with the Toronto Fringe in multiple capacities, including as the inaugural director and program designer of TENT, an educational program that teaches entrepreneurial skills to emerging theatre artists. From 2022-2023 Tom worked with PuSh International Performing Arts Festival as the Interim Director of Programming. Currently, he is working with the BC Association of Aboriginal Friendship Centres, helping to organize their annual Indigenous youth conference, Gathering Our Voices. About Jiv Parasram Jivesh is an award-winning multi-disciplinary artist, and facilitator of Indo-Caribbean descent. His work has toured Nationally and Internationally. Jiv is the founding Artistic Producer of Pandemic Theatre, and became the Artistic Director of Rumble Theatre following three years as the Associate Artistic Producer at Theatre Passe Muraille. He was a member of the Cultural Leader Lab with the Banff Centre and Toronto Arts Council. His public service work has included collaborations with the Ad Hoc Assembly, The Canadian Commission for UNESCO, and as an advisor to the National Arts Centre. His current cultural practice centres decolonization through aesthetics. Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabriel Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and I'm speaking with Tom Arthur Davis and Jiv Parisram, the artists of pandemic theatre who, along with theatre conspiracy, have created Swim.
00:20 But today's episode goes further back, reflecting on their 2018 Push show Daughter and the trajectory of their practice to Swim. Swim will be presented at the Push Festival January 30th to February 2nd, 2025.
00:34 Swim is an immersive, sensorial experience that imagines challenges endured by refugees who brave the treacherous crossing between Turkey and asylum on the Greek island of Samos. Harnessing cutting -edge technologies to stimulate audio and tactile sensations, Swim invites the audience to meditate upon the emotional toll of displacement and sacrifices made in pursuit of new beginnings.
00:56 Jiv Parisram is a multidisciplinary artist of Indo -Caribbean descent based on the unceded Coast Salish territories. He grew up in Mi 'kma 'ki and spent the first decade or so of his artistic career in Taq Aronto, where he co -founded Pandemic Theatre with Tom Arthur Davis.
01:13 Tom is an arts and culture worker who is based on unceded Lekwungen and Songhee territories. He was also Push's 2023 Interim Director of Programming. Here's my conversation, recorded on location near the studio where they recorded the sound for Swim with Tom and Jiv.
01:32 Just to start out, to give some context, we're here on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh. We are also next to Sound House, is it?
01:47 It's pretty close, yeah. Just down the road that way. That way? Where you're about to be recording some audio for swim. Indeed. So I've caught you in the middle of your residency, thanks for taking the time.
01:59 We're gonna talk about swim in a moment, because it's actually a very exciting kind of sneak peek for Push 2025. But let's go back to the beginning. So you have a relationship with Push that, well, started at least in 2018 when Push presented daughter.
02:16 But why don't we, why don't you tell us what was the beginning of your relationship with Push was? When did it start and how did it develop? It was the year before, maybe two years before we became for a pitch, before they say he fell, which was a project we had done with our, with Dawn of Michelle St.
02:33 Bernard and near Barracat. And so, yeah, we came to the pitch sessions and that was kind of our first kind of introduction to the festival. We'd heard about it, we'd met some folks kind of at, like, Magnetic North, I think, at the time.
02:48 Back when Magnetic North still existed, made rest in peace. Yeah, and kind of made that connection. So it was, it was really, you had to try to also get over to Vancouver to see what was happening because I think it can be pretty, you're Toronto based at the time and you can be pretty isolated in Toronto, kind of in the center of the universe situation where you don't really know what's going on elsewhere.
03:10 So, yeah. And it was pretty key for us to develop a lot of the international relationships we had and national relationships. That's true. So yeah, so like in Vancouver, that was really important to connect with that community.
03:20 But also it got us in touch with a bunch of folks like from, like Wes from who used to run Sydney Festival, who ended up then taking one of our shows later. So like, yeah, that was the start of that.
03:31 And that was like a multi -year relationship really the kind of like it started back at that pitch and then we stayed in touch and eventually we found the right project and you know so it's good in that way.
03:41 Yeah and as you mentioned you were not based here at this point and now both of you are here or relatively local to here and how did you end up being involved in the pitch did you did you have a relationship with Joyce or Norman or did you just apply out of the blue without having a connection?
04:01 I had met Joyce at Magnetic North and to be honest I hadn't even heard of the festival really before that I kind of vaguely knew that there was something like this out here again towards its Toronto thing but yeah so we were chatting at Magnorth about it a little bit so that gave a bit more context for me and then I think that was really it otherwise it was just an application yeah we lucked out.
04:29 Yeah we did luck out. I think it was more than luck but anyways and then the next year so how did you how did you come to have daughter presented at Push 2018 maybe you can also tell us about this project and the process of realizing it for the festival right here.
04:51 Yeah so we worked with I mean you could probably speak better to the actual project because you're co -creator on it but we're working with Adam Lazarus who's a like kind of a master bouffant clown in Canada and the world I think and he's up there yeah so yeah we did the workshop presentation with him on that project as a part of summer works and that's where Norman saw it and then had interest to bring it over and we did it as a part of the club Push in 2018 where we learned a lot about the project but maybe I'll let you talk about like what the project actually is.
05:25 Sure it's a surprise I mean it's it's a bouffant show but not really classic bouffant and we came up with some different. terms for it to try to describe it in grand terms, but essentially the difference really is that Adam is not in any way wearing a mask and he is to assert, he is kind of wearing a mask in the sense he's performing, but it's not that kind of grotesque, clear bouffant where you can tell the difference,
05:48 and that was an interest for him. But it kind of started with this project, you know, he was concerned or he was, you know, expressing I think what a lot of young fathers expressed, which is like, oh I have a daughter and the world's messed up, how do I protect my daughter?
06:05 And that kind of question around protection, like what exactly do you mean by that, unpacking it more? It's like, are you talking about protection? Are you talking about ownership? This is now going into the artistic project, not his actual relationship with his daughter.
06:20 And so it became this thing that's, the game of it really is, I've done some bad stuff, I'm gonna tell you the bad stuff and you're gonna see if you're still okay with me. And gradually that game starts to wear away in the sense that he stops asking, he just tells you that you're okay with him and you kind of tend to go with it.
06:40 Yeah, and like, I guess there is an actual moment of asking, but it's actually more, it's more like, as long as you're laughing, you're telling me it's okay. Yeah. And that's kind of the game, so like when I first saw it, it was like, oh, I was, I thought it was funny up to this, this point and it was, the point was about like, oh, he talks about how he's had STIs and he kept sleeping around and not telling people about them.
07:03 And that's where I drew the line. That was your line, yeah. And just to be clear, this is not Adam himself, this is the character. The character, yes. Don't want to disparage Adam. The father, yes. So that was the line that I drew and then, and then it gets more grotesque after that.
07:16 But then I had to, then after the thing, after I saw it for the first like, you know, rehearsal presentation, I then had to go, oh wait, why was I okay with this and this and this and this and this? And that's kind of the game that's happening with the audience, particularly the men in the audience.
07:28 Yeah. And I would say that's where the target audience really is. It's, it's, um, I think after we started doing it, it really established a lot of people don't need to see the show. It's not a show that everyone...
07:39 I mean, it's a great show, but I don't know that it's going to be eye -opening for everyone who sees it. But for the people who it is eye -opening, it's quite eye -opening and shocking. There's people who immediately see who this man is, and then they have a miserable time.
07:53 Or maybe they see it and they're like, oh, I see what you're doing, and they appreciate the craft of it. But you can see certain people walking out and they look like zombies after the show because they're like, yeah, they're contemplating some stuff about their own lives.
08:09 And it is, and maybe we can be a bit clearer too, like what it really is doing throughout that kind of work back is it's showing this layer of toxic masculinity that's been there the whole time, but just when do we recognize it and when do we question it.
08:22 And I think that what made it really interesting in terms of specifically what happened to the push was that was also around the time of Me Too, it was also in the Toronto center of the world context around the time when there was a big falling out with an artistic director of a major theater company who sucks, and it was all kind of coming out.
08:43 And so it was a sensitive time around the subject matter, I think, of toxic masculinity, of assault, of where those lines are. I mean, yeah, it became very, very topical. It was always topical, but it became really off the moment, I think, in a way that even that was programmed a push even before that happened.
09:07 It's true. I think when it was when it was part of summer works, it definitely had an impact. But I think part of what we thought was a part of the art or the experience was the deceit of the piece, was that it takes you a while for many people to understand what the piece is actually about.
09:22 So then we took, I think, Norman experienced it that way, and then we took it to push that way, and then we kind of framed it more as like a comedy thing. We did it in the Fox cabaret. In the Fox, yeah.
09:32 it was very like laid -back kind of atmosphere and then I think because Me Too was like right in the midst of its peak at that moment, just emerging, I think it had a very different impact. So then we learned a lot because we saw the effect that that was having on some audience members who were coming.
09:49 For when we eventually did an Edinburgh year or two later that we were like, oh we have to put a lot of context around this piece for people so they understand what they're coming into and then we need to add a component after the show is done of audience discussion where that's so that we can grapple with these things together because I think just throwing people on the street felt a little careless.
10:13 And quite literally like with the Fox you were just like okay show's done, lights on, out onto main. And you know that's not ideal and we knew that wasn't going to be ideal. We tried to be like kind of get the idea that we need to do some onboarding or something but the post -show aftercare I think really emerged after the presentation of Push and I think has become, it's a pretty essential part of doing the show now.
10:36 It would last longer than the show. The show's about 75 minutes and those talks would last two hours because people just had to grapple with it or had to tell us, get mad at us about the show or had to thank us for what it was.
10:51 I remember one person with that show who was quite upset because they felt like that was a representation of their father and they didn't want to be in the movie. They were quite upset and were like I'm really sorry we wish we better prepared you for this.
11:04 And then immediately after that person left someone else came up to us and said I just want to thank you. That was also my father and I want you to bring it to England. I want to bring him to it. So it was you know it's one of these things of yeah we learned a lot and I think we're still learning a lot about audience care around that kind of work and how to really prepare people for that kind of project.
11:25 And I think Push was an integral part of that learning. So it was nice to have that environment. And those are big questions too with regard. to work that is intended to subvert, and how do you prepare the audience well at the same time being able to have the desired theatrical effect take place.
11:44 That's quite complicated. How would you say that, how does that work relate to pandemics other work? Like is that audience care piece, does that continue to be really prevalent in your work because of the themes that you're working with, and because of how you're drawing the audience into those themes?
12:11 I think to some extent it's a project by project thing, but certainly our awareness towards responsibility for audience care has shifted. I feel like generally, at least in Canada, there has been a shift that takes that a bit more seriously.
12:29 When we were doing Daughter, it was still a point where people were very skeptical of trigger warnings or anything like that too, whereas now I think that that's pretty normal, that you would have content advisory that's available if people would like them or something like that.
12:44 And then in terms of the pandemic work, I think all of the stuff that we try to do is connected to there's some political action, whether it's in the creation or whether it's in what we're asking the audience to do.
12:57 And I think maybe now, looking at it, there's more of a consideration of what is their experience moving through it rather than maybe before it was more of their experience being impacted by it. So it's a bit of a more relational moment to moment thing for me, yeah.
13:16 Yeah, I think for lack of a better word, like buzz term -y thing is the audience engagement component then became, okay, well, how do you actually integrate that into the art itself? Because that was around the time we did another project called The Only Good Indian, which is...
13:32 about it's basically dissecting what your identity while wearing a suicide vest so there's different performers every night and that we all share like 40% of the same text and then 60% is our prompts that we work with the artists to build based off of who they are and how their bodies are othered or are not othered within within the world and what does it mean for that body to be wearing a suicide vest with an audience so that was also I mean that was a pretty direct ask of the audience just to stay in the same room with someone who is you know we all know it's a fake vest but like I think there's a few people were like there was like a 10% chance I wasn't quite sure if it was equal or not so I think that's a that was another one where we feel like okay we're actually building in an ask of the audience and then with that one we do also we included the big post show which was like doing a long table that's right that's right and so that one was about like let's unpack what we saw let's unpack what is bringing up for you yeah and there's take the milk as well yeah and that one that one does no aftercare per se but it's a gentler show I think but they're certainly asked hasn't asked the audience to self identify in that case and if they identify as having a marginalized experience as we define it in the show we get them to stay and if they don't we ask them to leave for five minutes it really pisses a lot of people off but you know it is I still think it's it's gentler than arguably most of the stuff we've done sure in my opinion so let's talk about swim so swim would be presented as part of the 2025 push festival it's a work we've co -commissioned that we presented with touchstone theater and the cult and it's also a project between pandemic and theater conspiracy can you tell us about this project and where you're at in the process Yeah,
15:34 so this has been developing for quite a long time. We started off with a residency with Crow's Theatre in Toronto in 2018, 2018 -19 year. Yeah, I think it was 2019 and we actually started on it maybe.
15:49 Right, yeah, it's just summer I think. And then so yeah, we kind of got started and we managed to build like a first draft of the script and then this thing happened in the world. Also called a pandemic.
16:01 Yeah, it really changed how cool our name was. So then, yeah, we didn't really work on it for quite a long time. But Laura Nanny at SummerWorks had heard about the project, I think you talked to her about it.
16:14 Probably, yeah. She was talking about creating over distance and at the time, Tom was still in Toronto, I was out here. So we were actually creating over distance and the piece is kind of about distance, so it was a good pitch for Laura I think.
16:25 So yeah, so then we got to kind of develop it there and do a first draft of like what an audio version would be. I think you heard that then and then you were like, oh, this is neat. And then, so then we got you guys commissioned it, which is very generous.
16:37 And then we've been working with theater conspiracy since then to yeah, to develop what the project will be like in its full iteration. Do you want to talk about what the project actually is? Sure. So, I mean, like we're trying to make it sound as least pretentious as possible, but if I go, it's an immersive audio meditation, but it is that.
17:02 But the idea of it, we were closing or opening a show and kind of just thinking about what the next thing is. And we were just talking about, at the time there was a news story about this Italian sea captain and she was standing trial for harboring refugees, I believe, which was the exact phrasing of the charge was.
17:23 But by the law of the sea, if you're a sea captain, you're out there and you see somebody drowning or in need of help, you have to take them in. It's Italy's laws are different in terms of bringing those people into Italy It really highlighted the what was being called the refugee crisis at that time So it got us reading a bit more about what's going on in that migration path and the migration path that we were interested in is this eight kilometers trek that's between Turkey and Greece and It is something that people swim people have swam it and we we wanted to delve into this topic Kind of like so as I'm saying like that our work is kind of has a political ask of the audience or has a political ask Of us in some ways this one I would say the political ask of ourselves was to really delve into Imagining what that experience might be like not necessarily too Appropriate or have that but for us to try to connect with it in some way We had been doing a lot of identity based work For the past few years And I think it was important for us to try to do something that's actively thinking beyond our Experience too and this was a very extreme situation So we wanted to kind of delve into it there And so what you what happens in the show is and it's taken different forms But you are kind of becoming this character and it's kind of a stream of consciousness of what might go through someone's head Doing it and then in making it actually we swam a bunch and kind of that was what Helped us come up with where would the mind go like and we didn't sort of full eight kilometers But we swam like maybe like one or two and that was exhausting even in the pool So to think about that we're also very out of shape.
19:10 Yes, that is true. That is true Still though the Mediterranean. I mean, I wouldn't have lasted 20 20 meters. I think I would be I'd be dead. So personally for sure. Yeah, but Yeah, and the original idea actually of this project.
19:24 So it's it was also So yeah, but you mentioned that story of the Italian sea captain, but there's also a story of a refugee who went through Turkey and did this specific swim. So yeah we were just curious what would go through their mind.
19:43 What was my point? The original idea we can talk about. Oh that's what it was. Okay I'm gonna go back. Yeah so we we've heard about the story about the Syrian refugee who swam from Turkey to the nearest Greek island, that eight kilometer trek that you mentioned.
20:02 And then that kind of inspired us to be like oh what if the audience actually has to do that physical journey themselves. So the original idea as maybe insane as it was was to have the audience swim during the duration of the audio piece and somehow have some waterproof headphones and you know design in your local swimming pool or in lake or in the ocean or something.
20:27 Then when we did it in summer works we kind of realized oh we don't actually need to do that. There are other ways to allow someone to feel immersed in it. So then we thought we started thinking about walking, what's it like if people are walking while doing it.
20:40 And now because we're working with theater conspiracy, David Lucia and Gavin Shima, they do a lot of really cool immersive work with different types of tech. So we're looking at doing vibrotactile vests that have multiple vibrating points in them to give like that kind of immersive quality and also binaural sound technology which is basically like it's like kind of a 3d version of sound.
21:06 So if you know it'll sound like someone is whispering in your ear or like behind you kind of thing. So that's what we're working on with it now. Yeah. And can you take us back or can you reflect on from 2018 or even 2017 when you first started your relationship with Push to Swim 2025?
21:28 How has your practice evolved? stayed true, what are you thinking about differently? Either as a pandemic or individually. I know that you both have other artistic projects, G of U, also Artistic Director of Rumble.
21:46 Tom, you've been interim Director of Programming at Push and you know are working on your own projects independently, so whatever you'd like to share there. I mean like I think in terms of how it shifted since getting involved or coming to Push, maybe in our work.
22:04 You can just see if you agree with this or not, but certainly I will say speaking for myself like the range of what is contemporary performance that can live in Canada I think has changed in that time.
22:20 Like not to say that we were all, I don't know that we were ever like very conventional, conventional like theater, like you know Norm Foster style theater, respect to Norm Foster. But I think it pushed the boundaries of what we were seeing.
22:37 Like we had the opportunity when we were like coming out of school actually to see a bunch of stuff in Europe because of some weird relationship the school had and that was good. But to see what kind of here too I think was, it impacted me at least in terms of thinking about how I might approach a project and where that project could go and where it could live and what life it could have after just doing it in a pretty significant way.
23:09 Yeah, which felt like it actually it really informs what the art is to understand like if you want it to move and you want it to be able to speak to a wider audience than just your initial community and how do you do that in a way that's ethical and not just feeling like you said this before like the airdrop mentality of just like coming in doing your show and like you know and then leaving like okay well like what does it mean to impact that community and how do you engage?
23:32 with the community. I feel like that all started to kind of come together around the time of push and seeing the impact that daughter was having and the conversations we were having around that and wanting to do that you know do to be able to do that in other places but also do it in a better way.
23:47 So yeah that really felt like it really does feel like that was actually kind of a turning point I think for us as a company I think prior to that you know we had some stuff that was okay but like it felt like you know a bit very young and very messy and around that time was allowed us to kind of a see some really cool art I remember seeing Lee Mediad at a push of having my mind blown and being like oh cool I want to be on this level not that I've ever achieved that because that show was cool as hell but but like yeah wanting wanting to to reach that level so it's impactful for me personally.
24:26 Maybe on the flip side too I would say like it has helped me separate one of the projects that I look at in a more international arena and one of the projects I look at in a local arena and they're not always the same sometimes they are the same but they don't have to be the same and both can exist and both can be practices onto themselves because the relationships that certainly like now that we both live here too like the relationships off just the way people kind of are out west is a little bit different the way people are out east and the community aspect of it is I don't want to necessarily say stronger but it is perhaps more connected more web -like than the kind of isolation you can have out east for better or worse so I think that that lends itself to a certain different way of thinking of even just doing political work because I think our stuff was always kind of like you know it had relevance locally but we were often looking at topics that were these large global issues like iced tea versus a like you know some of the stuff we have coming up really is about integrating more into who is here in the moment and how do we work with them.
25:38 Yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like I mean doing stuff that's hyper -local and is meant for hyper -local is super important and like I think actually we need more of that. Like these Fanpanto, Jiv and his partner Christine did this past year.
25:52 Legit one of my favorite things I've seen in a long time. It was such a blast. It wouldn't really work. Not that they showed us a tour. Yeah but it was a goddamn blast and yeah so yeah that's a good distinction to kind of say to understanding what's that what the difference is.
26:08 Like okay how am I gonna serve hyper -locally or how am I going to serve communities that we're not from. And what are your thoughts on the cultural context and significance of the push? I know that you I mean have a relationship with push even beyond what we've spoken about.
26:25 I've touched on you know that Tommy were curating with push. Jiv you've been working with Push as a co -presenting partner over the years. Yeah I can go. I'll put on my old years. Tell me. No I mean I think Push obviously has a really important role.
26:45 I think I've even touched on this as we've been talking here. I think it's really connected a lot of Vancouver and Canadian artists internationally and kind of helped to kind of show that I think I think what Push has helped do is actually kind of deteriorate some of the mythology of Canada internationally.
27:04 Of like the polite the the meek the at least and and and the I don't know the wholesome too because I think we've actually some of the works that have come out of Push or at least some of the artists that have come out of Push and gone on to do international stuff have kind of helped to highlight that Canada is not the utopia that a lot of the world thought it was.
27:25 I feel like I feel like that image is starting to change but like I don't know I think about Cliff Cardinal or Terra Vegan. Marcus's work, like these are, it kind of, it kind of showed the world that there are some like punk rock artists coming out of Canada and I think that's pretty rad.
27:46 Yeah and I guess like I might just add in terms of like its significance, I have the benefit of actually being at Rumble of being able to go through and read some of those early documents when they were thinking through it that I can find.
27:58 Because Norman started Rumble. Yeah and he started Rumble and it was with Touchstone, so actually there you go, Touchstone Rumble, back at it again. So I could, you know, I've read a little bit about like what the thinking was in the early, when it was a series and that kind of stuff before it became a festival.
28:15 That it was about like kind of like bringing in some international, bringing some external, perhaps even more so the international, external influence into the scene here. And I think that it still does that and I think that it doing that led to what I would consider like some of the more interesting like contemporary art coming out of Canada living in Vancouver.
28:40 Like the reputation in Vancouver being out East for so long was that it's the experimental place. We got here and actually like there's a bit of a mix, there is a mix, let me tell you, but the experimental stuff is here too, is here too.
28:55 And I think that what that is, it's being made by the generation that since push started has kind of, they were, they were at the right time to be very influenced by that. So I think it continues to do that for local artists here and I think as more people are coming to see the festival from other places in Canada, I think it's, it's good, it's very good and it's, we don't have much like it.
29:23 There's Luminato in Toronto but it's not the same vibe. It's a different thing onto itself and push manages to kind of maintain still like a small festival feel, they do huge stuff you know but like it still has that hub element that I think a lot of these larger international festivals that do exist in the country which are not many but like they lose that a little bit towards the kind of more pushing the spectacle and being and performatively part of the city maybe whereas this seems still quite art driven,
30:00 art and dialogue driven you know so yeah I think certainly from participating in the industry series and those conversations when Joyce was organizing it and understanding like what are the international conversations what are people thinking about influences the kind of work that we might make and position ourselves also there and find out like where it is actually interesting for us to to pursue because sometimes the conversations were not interesting to like that people like this is your priority cool I'm not into that or it's not really it's not my vibe and that's cool like it's good to know what's going on there but that's not that's not the right market for us to kind of try to hit yeah and just also highlight that like Norman and Joyce like what they created with push and also the whole team prior to them with them you know I think they really created something really special with with push and for the community here and also creating what feels like like you were saying like an intimate community but somehow an international one too like it would feel like you would see people seeing old friends that live in China and live in Australia and like wherever so yeah they actually managed to create like that actual global village but like feel like doing it in kind of what felt like a more ethical way than you might see in like a really huge festival like like in Edinburgh or something so and yeah and you and Kelty have done an amazing job of continuing that legacy and it it feels like at home when you're when you're there so yeah that's that's pretty special thank you Thank you so much.
31:33 I'm so excited to experience the premiere of SWIM at Push 2025. Us too. It's been five years. Great. I won't keep you any more from the studio. All right. That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Tom Arthur Davis from Pandemic Theatre and Jiv Parasram of Theatre Conspiracy.
31:57 SWIM will be presented at the upcoming Push Festival January 23rd to February 9th in Vancouver, B .C. Swim runs from January 30th to February 2nd at Vancibi Culture Lab. It's presented with Touchstone Theatre and The Cult.
32:14 Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and the lovely Ben Charland. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
32:28 And for more information on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theatre, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival .ca. Thanks for joining us.
32:42 Coming up on the next Push Play... I try to find a way to keep all these people that work with me together every day, every year, day by day, doing and thinking about production in art and art of production. | |||
| 20 Nov 2023 | Ep. 4 - Sound of The Beast: Creating care through discomfort | 00:23:07 | |
Donna-Michelle St. Bernard discusses refusing to prioritize comfort over authenticity. Sound of the Beast runs Feb 20th-23rd at PuSh Festival. Show Notes Gabrielle Martin chats with Donna-Michelle St. Bernard’s new work Sound of the Beast. Donna-Michelle shares why people are creating work that looks more like itself and less like each other and her relationship with the people whose stories she’s telling. What is our contribution to the lived reality that we are fictionalizing? Co-presented with Vancouver Poetry House, Rumble Theatre, and Pandemic Theatre. Gabrielle and Donna-Michelle take on some big questions:
About Donna-Michelle St. Bernard Donna-Michelle St. Bernard, a.k.a. Belladonna the Blest, is an emcee, playwright, and agitator. Her main body of work, the 54ology, includes Cake, Sound of the Beast, A Man A Fish, Salome’s Clothes, Gas Girls, Give It Up, The Smell of Horses, and The First Stone. Works for young audiences include the META-nominated Reaching For Starlight, The Chariot, and Rabbit King of Kenya. Opera libretti include Forbidden (Afarin Mansouri/Tapestry Opera) and Oubliette (Ivan Barbotin/Tapestry Opera). She is co-editor with Yvette Nolan of the Playwrights Canada Press Refractions anthologies, and editor of Indian Act: Residential School Plays. Land Acknowledgement Donna-Michelle joins from Treaty 13 Territory, as newcomers call Toronto, which is the traditional territories of the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, Haudenosaunee, Wendat, and Mississaugas of the Credit. This is also territory that is subject to the Dish With One Spoon Wampum Belt Covenant. Gabrielle hosts from the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript Gabrielle [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to PuSh Play, a PuSh Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, PuSh's Director of Programming. And today's episode highlights how the story calls to its form. I'm speaking with Donna-Michelle St. Bernard, writer and performer of Sound of the Beast, which will be presented at PuSh Festival January 20th, 21st and 23rd 2024. Part Concert, Part Theatre Sound of the Beast blends the personal and the political with stories of coming up in Toronto's hip hop scene, the intersections between conscious rap and political activism, and the sacrifices we make for the things we believe in. Donna Michelle, a.k.a. Belladonna the Blest is an M.C. playwright and arts administrator. She is artistic director of New Harlem Productions and a vocalist with folk funk hip hop trio Ergo Sum. She's a true believer. I'm delighted to share our discussion that gets into her ethic of research and retelling and what happens at the nexus of ease and discomfort. Here is my conversation with Donna Michelle. I have a ton of questions for you. I'm really curious to get to know more about your practice, about this show. First, I just want to acknowledge the territories that I'm on today for the call. I'm on the Unceded traditional and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish peoples, so the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) . And it's an absolute privilege to be here working for PuSh, to be based here, and just to be living here as a settler. So this is where I am today.
Donna-Michelle [00:01:38] I am coming to you from Treaty 13 Territory, but as newcomers call Toronto, which is the traditional territories of the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, Haudenosaunee, Wendat, and Mississaugas of the Credit and this is also territory that is subject to the Dish With One Spoon Wampum Belt Covenant. And we are all implicitly signatory to that responsibility here.
Gabrielle [00:02:04] So I just want to dive right in by asking what is exciting you the most creatively these days?
Donna-Michelle [00:02:12] I'm really excited, by the way the shape of things is changing and maybe I'm a nerd, so I'm going to mix up that it's changing creatively and organisationally and disciplinarily. You know, the people are creating work that looks more like itself and less like each other. And people are creating work in structures that look more like what is needed for this moment and less like what we think it's supposed to look like. And so I think I'm excited by the possibilities of opening those vessels up and working. Working to blossom out rather than to crush ourselves into the shape that we think is expected.
Gabrielle [00:02:58] I think that segues really nicely into a follow up question I have about New Harlem Productions, because you're the artistic director of New Harlem Productions and this is an arts organisation that prioritises marginalised narratives and centres, sustainability, solidarity, professional development, equitable resource distribution, social implications and frontline experiences. So I feel like when you were just describing what excites you about how people are making work. To me, I'm thinking about your own company and I'm curious in your experience how these values change the nature of creation and production, your creation and production.
Donna-Michelle [00:03:42] Yes, I appreciate that question because it is an ongoing consideration. I think that new Harlem started as like a net to catch what was what was not being picked up by the mainstream organisations for reasons that were unclear or not valid to me. Like this piece works in languages other than English and we don't trust people to follow it. I trust people. Let's go. Let's do this. Or looking at artists who were emerging with with a strong voice that was that, that needed different support for the audience or different outreach for the audience. And like just a little bit more work. Let's just do that little bit more work. Not that we're the greatest and everything not to shine us on too much, but it's my perspective was that there were artists that we could lose if they weren't encouraged, affirmed and supported in doing something that was not what we expected them to do. And so working, working in the way that we do at New Harlem, really trying trying to have that value based centre, which is, by the way, a practice that evolved from my work with Native Earth Performing Arts, where we were able to say the all of the work of this company should be guided by these seven grandfather teachings that that seem to exist across many different nations, although they sometimes take different wording or different shape. And so that seemed like something really that's possible to guide our decisions in a way that is not that does not leave it to the judgement of an individual, to the judgement of the leader of the moment of the company. But there's these more enduring guidelines of how and why we're doing things, and that if we can agree to that, then when we when there is disagreement or when there are difficult choices to make, we agree what the touchstone is. And so similarly at New Harlem, we've evolved these value statements around, as you mentioned, like sustainability, ethical resources. And so those writing those things out or articulating those things allows us to say like, we do need some funding and we don't want that oil money. And that is clear to us because this thing in recently learning more about trauma informed practice and pulling some principles from that out a little bit more, such as like, Wow, I was considering the most effective, how do we serve the most affected, not the most vocal in any given scenario, you know? So I think those things really help us to move through some very difficult moments and to make choices to take what might seem like a risk. But from where we're sitting is very clearly the correct thing to do, and that helps us be emboldened to stand up for what feels like the correct choice to make.
Gabrielle [00:06:39] Thank you. So eloquent.
Donna-Michelle [00:06:40] So philosophical.
Gabrielle [00:06:42] Clearly you've thought about this, clearly, this is deeply embedded.
Donna-Michelle [00:06:44] We never stop thinking about it.
Gabrielle [00:06:49] And clearly your work is also about creating space for others as well. And so I'm curious, maybe we can talk about the 54ology project because you're the principle creator behind this project, but you also have many long term collaborators on it. And it's a project that looks at each country in Africa through a different piece of performance work. You're now about two thirds of the way through. And so I would just like to know why 54ology and how has this project and the collaborators in your long term collaborations, how has all of this changed you if it has?
Donna-Michelle [00:07:29] Oh has it ever. So 54ology the first piece that ever existed in some draft form with something called OSU data that had to do with HIV infection in Sudan and sort of like folk remedies and the impact of that, these folk remedies and the impact of the like poor investment into other remedies that well, that was a tough one. It was I was pretty blunt about certain things that are difficult to take in. That was the beginning of me sort of learning about like what is what is my positioning in relation to this story that I'm researching that is not my story? What is the positioning of, what is my understanding of how the story affects other people differently than it affects me? So from from that piece which was workshopped but not produced, I went on to create the first draft of The First Stone, which is my the biggest piece to date, which is about child abductees in Uganda. And that and so that was really challenge challenging. There are so many stories there. I encountered many people who were affected by that. That historical moment, moment is a very small word for it sorry, and I really had to evolve what is my relationship with the people whose stories I'm telling? What is my ethic of research and retelling and engaging with those kids who are now grown? Taught me a lot about non extractive research and about what I'm asking when I ask someone for their story, what I'm asking when they retell it to me, and it's like a very difficult part of their life. And then so now I have this story. Thank you so much. And what did that do for them at all? Really trying to consider those things. What is our contribution to the lived reality that we are fictionalising. And that is something that's evolved through the 54ology understanding of our responsibility to the source of our the need for us to make a meaningful contribution to the communities that we're deriving our stories from the need for to show them what we've done with what they've offered, and then also thinking about the shape of the story. You mentioned that there are so many collaborators and sometimes sometimes in the 54ology, it's a story about things unsaid and then I'm like, mmm, but I'm a sayer. That's that's mostly what I do is I say. So like, who are my choreographic collaborators that can help me to bring a different vocabulary to this and who are the musical composers and so on, or multi-media artists who can bring other vocabularies that I may not have into this? And then? And then how do I. How do how do I share what is inside of me in this of this story so that we move forward into it together? And how do we have a shared ethic of research? So I'm not a sound bitey person, so maybe this has become a diatribe, but 54 ology is so much about process to me.
Gabrielle [00:10:52] Yeah, right.
Donna-Michelle [00:10:53] And so much about like how the story calls to its form and and when I need to step up and when I need to step back in my narrative voice being a part of it. So I've learned so much through doing the 54 ology about different forms. And I feel like each new piece is an education. And there are and there is yet so much for me to learn. And I'm just really excited and really grateful to everyone who's contributed to it in all the ways.
Gabrielle [00:11:19] It's really beautiful how you articulated this ethic of research and retelling and how your process of building your own methods for non extractive research. And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more to that. I know you talk about the after effects are like not just in, okay, you know, you're doing the research and you hear from people and hear their stories and create a work and then how does that work then exist in relation to them? I mean, you've spoken a bit about that. But yeah, I mean, this is such a kind of theme with, you know, with the PuSh festival wanting to put forward work that accelerates social change. So therefore often it's talking about or addressing situations that have a real impact of trauma in a lot of people's lives.
Donna-Michelle [00:12:15] Yes, I'm so interested in this, like and a strong part of what we've evolved through doing this work is an ethic of care for both the audience, both the artists and the audience and the folks whose stories we are telling. And and so what I referred to earlier about, like serving the most impacted or the most vulnerable, like, like it comes into play when someone someone gives you a story, "This this is a thing that happened to me and it was hard for it to happen and it is hard for me to tell you." And then if I if I were to take that away and go, "what a good story, so dramatic" and just tell it again and in the same way that I received it, the way that that would impact another person in the audience who has lived this experience, which I have not can be quite brutal. And I feel like often that brutality is excused by the courage of telling it raw, you know, which is something that is that's something that the performer or the creator wants, you know, or that might be something that's like titillating for an audience who will never be near to that experience. And so that's that's sort of a specific case study, though, of like, you know, who who's being served. Why am I telling this story? And I think that there can be a tendency to say, I'm doing a service by drawing awareness to this story, and it just isn't enough to be doing that. When when I draw awareness to this story, does that put money in the bank for the person whose story it is that I'm telling? Because it mostly doesn't, what does it do? Does it change the social environment they're operating in? Well, not if I'm out here bluntly and brutally saying their business to no end. Not if someone else is sitting there having not shared their story with me, feeling like I'm bluntly and brutally telling their business and feeling exposed that they're in the audience, who am I serving? I think that's such a big question. And then, too, the other aspect of care is, like all of my plays are going to ask the same question: How. How could you, how could we, how could they, how did this happen? How, why did this happen? How did this happen? How could you. (laughter). That's my question. So in order for us to tell a story in which we're like, where care has been absent or where harm has been done, that story cannot ethically come out of a rehearsal hall in which people are being treated brutally in order to achieve the perfection of the performance or in which people, people who are late because their children were puking in the morning are docked pay for the minutes that they're late. They can't work. That can't work. We can't we can't illustrate a care ethic without practising it and enacting it in a deep and meaningful way. So we cannot move into an abolitionist future if we are unforgiving of our collaborators in that movement. You know, so everything is everything is my point. That's Lauren Hill's point. I share her point.
Gabrielle [00:15:44] Nothing wrong with that acknowledging a good point. Thank you for framing your perspective, this perspective on creation and production so articulately. I want to know a little bit more about Sound The Beast and where it sits in relation to your other works. Because you are a prolific creator and a self-proclaimed word slinger, M.C, advocate and agitator. Yeah. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how this story has called into its form and its relationship in your wider practice.
Donna-Michelle [00:16:26] This play is quite unique in the 54ology and was quite a site of growth and challenge for me. So it is my first time writing a solo show and that that was a big learning. It was the first time when my work had my story in it. It was so hard, Gabrielle, it was so hard because it's just not my style and it's just not.
Gabrielle [00:16:56] A different beast.
Donna-Michelle [00:16:56] Yeah it's absolutely a different beast I'm not accustomed to. I mean, I've been writing these stories about the larger global phenomenon that create untenable situations for people. And so it's very difficult for me to say like, "Oh, it was so hard that time. They didn't let me do this show and I had to wait and do a different show a week later. Oh my God, my life is so hard' getting into that and, you know, acknowledging acknowledging my reality is valid to speak about. It was a thing. I also I was an M.C. before I was in theatre, and I came to theatre from that world and then sort of encountered a little bit of like, "That's cute that you do that. Could you put it down for a second and do this grown up art form?" That was the vibe. And, and so, you know, I rapped on the weekend and did grown up stuff during the week and, and I found my way back. So in this piece where I gave myself permission and also was supported by my colleagues and having permission to be to bring my full self into the theatre, into this formal space with my informal practice as an M.C and with my, my aesthetic, which is like a little sloppy, like, I want I just I don't ever want you to get comfortable with me as like a clean person that's like, safe to have around kids unsupervised. Oh, my God, I shouldn't say that. But you know what I mean. I want you to get the idea that... Lena Waithe there's this thing that I'm obsessed with about her haircut. She's got, like, shaved, shaved down the sides, and then, like, a, you know, a little bit of dreadlock come on down the side or I'm sorry, they don't see dreadlocks anymore. So she's got locks coming down the side. I'm old, I'm adjusting. And and she did an interview about it once and she said, I realise I'm going to butcher this quote, but paraphrasing she said, "I realised that even though everyone knew that I was a queer black woman, that I was in a room sometimes where people were comfortable with me being there. And that is not my role to be someone that is comfortable to have in the room." And I was like, Lena, let me go shave my head. Let me never make people feel that they should, that I'm there for comfort. I'm here for discomfort and not here to... While I do want people, I do want to enact care for audiences and collaborators and everyone, I'm not here for you to be at your ease. That's not my function. And so in order to do that, I'm also stepping very much into my own discomfort and in this performance. Bringing hip hop into the theatre, not as a trick and not as a like, boom pow concert. Like, I'm not I'm not trying to do Beyoncé-esque look, I'm trying to show you what my reality is as a hip hop artist in this community, we perform in small spaces. We perform in dirty spaces. Sometimes people throw bottles, you know? That's my reality. We perform at protests against police brutality. Like that's where my work lives, that's what it's for. It's not for, it's not for going platinum. As if that was an option that I declined. But it's not for that. It's for being in spaces of resistance. And that is my function. And so feeling that being able to bring that into a formal space, like a theatre where like you arrive on time and the show definitely starts at this time. And what is this? This is this not this is not very me. And and then there's a stage manager like. They're always there. They're always like, they never go to the bathroom during your song and forget to play the next track, which is what they do at clubs. Whole different situation. So in Sound of the Beast, I am I am at a nexus of ease and effort for myself and for the audience. I can tell you some stories that are easy to digest, and then I just need you to stay with me through some stuff that maybe isn't. And I'm going to try to create an environment where you trust me enough to come there with me.
Gabrielle [00:21:19] Sound of the Beast: here for the discomfort, and the ease, and the ease. We're super excited to have this work as part of the 2024 Push Festival. Thank you so much for chatting with me, inviting folks into your practice a little bit more and and for agreeing to be part of this 2024 festival. This is an incredible work. You know, it's such a treat when you from the get go of a performance experience, you just know you're in really good hands and, you know, that's that's this work for sure. So thanks Donna Michelle.
Donna-Michelle [00:21:56] Thank you so much. I appreciate it, I appreciate this time with you.
Ben [00:22:02] That was Gabrielle Martin's conversation with Donna-Michelle St. Bernard. My name is Ben Charland, and I'm one of the producers of this podcast, along with Tricia Knowles. PuSh Play is supported by our community outreach coordinator, Julian Legere. Original Music from Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes are released every Monday and Thursday. For more information on PUSH International Performing Arts Festival, visit, pushfestival.ca and follow us on social media @PuShFestival. And on the next "PuSh Play:"
Nellie Gossen [00:22:35] When we were talking about care practices of of was turning towards or building capacity building muscle to turn towards experiences that are really challenging, to turn towards suffering, to turn towards complexity and to try to build spaces to to hold that complexity in whatever other container. It all creates more space for us to think.
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| 06 Jan 2025 | Ep. 51 - Unclassifiable (Bijuriya) | 00:34:52 | |
Gabrielle Martin chats with Gabriel Dharmoo, who is presenting Bijuriya at the 2025 PuSh International Performing Arts Festival on January 28 and 29 at the ANNEX, with Music on Main and the Indian Summer Festival and support from the Government of Quebec. Show Notes Gabrielle and Gabriel discuss:
About Gabriel Dharmoo Gabriel Dharmoo is a composer, vocalist, improviser, interdisciplinary artist and researcher. After studying with Éric Morin at Université Laval, he completed studies in composition and analysis at the Conservatoire de musique de Montréal with Serge Provost, graduating with two Prix avec grande distinction, the highest honour awarded. His works have been performed in Canada, the U.S., France, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Spain, Estonia, Poland, Australia, Singapore, and South Africa. He has received many awards for his compositions, including the Canada Council for the Arts Jules Léger Prize for his chamber work Wanmansho (2017) and the Conseil Québécois de la Musique Opus Award for his opera À chaque ventre son monstre (2018). He was also awarded the Canadian Music Centre's Harry Freedman Recording Award (2018). Having researched Carnatic music with four renowned masters in Chennai (India) in 2008 and 2011, his musical style encourages the fluidity of ideas between tradition and innovation. He has participated in many cross-cultural and inter-traditional musical projects, many led by Sandeep Bhagwati in Montreal (Sound of Montreal, Ville étrange) and in Berlin (Zungenmusiken, Miyagi Haikus). As a vocalist and interdisciplinary artist, his career has led him around the globe, notably with his solo show Anthropologies imaginaires at the Amsterdam Fringe Festival (2015) and the SummerWorks Performance Festival (2016). They also explore queer arts and drag artistry as Bijuriya (@bijuriya.drag). He is an associate composer at the Canadian Music Centre and a member of SOCAN, the Canadian New Music Network, and the Canadian League of Composers. Since 2015, Gabriel has been a PhD candidate at Concordia University's PhD "Individualized Program" with Sandeep Bhagwati (Music), Noah Drew (Theatre) and David Howes (Anthropology). Land Acknowledgement This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver. Gabriel joined the conversation from what is now known as Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Kanien’kehà:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst many First Nations including the Kanien’kehá:ka of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Huron/Wendat, Abenaki, and Anishinaabeg. It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself. Show Transcript 00:02 Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and today's episode highlights intersectional exploration and drag-pop aesthetics.
00:18 I'm speaking with Gabrielle Darmout, artist behind Bijuria, which is being presented at the Push Festival, January 28th and 29th, 2025. In this quirky yet poignant examination of the intersections between queerness and brownness, Gabrielle Darmout engages in a self-reflexive dialogue with his drag persona, Bijuria.
00:38 This musical conversation delves into the power of song to express the hybrid, multifaceted layers that coexist with an identity, offering an insightful reflection on the fluidity of human experience.
00:51 Gabrielle Darmout is a music composer, vocalist, and interdisciplinary artist. He was awarded the 2017 Jules Léger Prize for Chamber Music, following up on his internationally acclaimed solo, Anthropologie Imaginaire.
01:05 His new production, Bijuria, merges music, drag, and theatre, and has been presented a dozen times in Canada since 2022. Here's my conversation with Gabrielle. So just before we dive into really getting to know you, I want to acknowledge that I am participating in this conversation today from the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples.
01:35 So the Musqueam, the Squamish, and the Tsleil-Waututh. I'm a settler here, and it's my responsibility to continue to think about what that means, my relation to decolonization and restitution, and educating myself.
01:52 And that looks differently each day. And recently, I mean, I refer to this actually quite often. in these land acknowledgments is acknowledging Yellowhead Institute because it's an incredible wealth of information and an incredible educational resource.
02:10 So I've been reading their cashback red paper and it really does a great job of framing what cashback is all about, about restitution from the perspective of stolen wealth. And framing it that it's not a charity project and it's a part of decolonization and understanding that colonization is an economic project based on land theft that requires a political system that operates through domination and violence to maintain theft and therefore enriches the settler state necessarily,
02:49 impoverishes or in enriching the settler state and necessarily impoverishes and criminalizes the colonized. And I just find it so, their writing is so clear in how they frame these things that, yeah, I learn a lot.
03:04 Gabrielle, where are you joining this call from today? Thanks for sharing that. I am talking to you from home in Montreal or Joe Chaggy. Here's land of the Kanyakahaga, who are recognized as the custodians of the land and waters.
03:21 I have Indo-Caribbean ancestry from my father's side. So a whole history of indenture and a race sort of cultural ties to the South Asian subcontinent. And my mother is a French Canadian, present of such things, so I'm half white, half brown, but are they really halves?
03:46 You can't quantize it that way, but that's been my, yeah, my art is a good way for me to actually engage with all questions related to identity and power or decolonization or reflecting on coloniality as this thing that is part of everything and that we have to mindfully engage with.
04:15 And art for me has been the channel. Thank you for sharing that. And definitely I can relate to an aspect of what you're saying, and it's just a very kind of simple way of also being half-half, half-black, half-white, if we can call it them halves, it's much more complicated and richly complicated than that or complex.
04:38 But this is something that I'm super interested about your practice is the trans-cultural perspective. And it really stands out in your work, both in the perspective you bring to the work. and in the disciplines that you engage with and the historical context for those forms that you're working with.
04:58 So as a composer, you completed studies in composition and analysis at the Conservatoire de Musique de Montréal with people I'm not familiar with, but who sound very important, and you graduated with two pre-Vécagrand distinction, the highest honor to be awarded, and you've since won numerous prestigious awards.
05:20 Your compositions have been performed around the world, and as well as studying in Western music traditions, you researched Carnatic music with four renowned masters in Chennai over several years, and you're a drag performer.
05:34 So what does it mean to be an artist at the intersection of Western and Eastern artistic practices, as well as the intersection of high and low or popular art forms? First, I just want to say how I can't see how it could be any other way, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
05:55 It's not very straightforward of a path that I've had, but I've always kind of balanced all these ingredients that we just mentioned, whether we think of it as geography or in terms of type of art form, like with quotation marks high and low or popular or sophisticated art forms.
06:21 It's always been kind of a balancing act because I did undergo kind of training in music, which is very, very directly linked with Western classical music. So we could call it like urological. Santi Bhagwadi calls it urological.
06:43 So it's Eurocentric, but it's not anymore. It's everywhere. This type of music is everywhere, but it follows rules that have been born out of arts music at a certain period of history in a certain place.
06:57 And the tough part is like, it's kind of great music in many ways, but it's hard for me to be all in and it's hard for me to do only that. Even if I look at it from an avant-garde kind of position, because I could easily say I don't like classical music from the past.
07:17 Now I'm in the present doing that. That's one way of looking at it. But I don't feel like that sphere is where I want to have both feet in. So underground arts or I guess grassroots arts or hybrid forms, formats have always interested me.
07:42 And I also don't disavow the existence of art that's linked to through capitalism or commercial art or pop culture and all that. But I, so I engage with everything and I also am critical of everything in a way.
08:03 And the only way I can exist with this is through playfulness and through question marks, just asking lots of questions about it and thinking that it's both super, super, super serious and also kind of not really at the same time and sort of not funny, but something that can be, you know, poked at for the subject of satire or exploration.
08:33 Have you always been working in all of these forms? Like, for example, have you been you know, expressing yourself in drag, as well as pursuing this formal education in classical music? Or has there been kind of a trajectory that led you from one to the other back to the other?
08:53 Or yeah, how did that work? And also with with your training in Carnatic music as well? Yeah, no, it's, it's closer to the second part of your your second hypothesis is closer to the truth in the sense that I was, I'm, I say that I kept balancing it, but the proportion that it occupies in my life, or my activities or my projects have shifted has shifted.
09:21 So when I was a student at the conservatoire, for sure, I was way more invested in that type of urological music composition, and very invested in playing that game. I think near 20s is kind of the era of seeking a validation as well.
09:39 And validation from peers and from a network or from a community was something that I, I kind of was very, you know, that it affected a lot of decisions in a lot of ways that in choices, not necessarily negatively, but sometimes I do feel like that's a big part of it's such a formative decade.
10:06 And I've spent a lot of it in that field. But at the same time, I was doing other types of projects. But I also always had in mind that I wanted to go to India and study classical Indian music Carnatic music, which is one of two systems of classical Indian music from the south of India.
10:25 And I went there after my after I graduated from conservatoire. So that's 2008 11 ish that I went there. And then drag came 10 years after that. So 2018 that I started. And I guess if I look at the broad patterns, with hindsight, I'd say that I've been gradually and mindfully distancing from the more urological contemporary or new arts performance, interdisciplinarity, and that involved drag as well.
11:16 So it's a balance, but there's also a direction to it. Now when I take on projects that I feel are more linked to contemporary music, I choose them more, I don't know, I choose them. I weigh the pros and cons way more.
11:38 And I take less and less of this for different reasons. And is that also maybe because in those projects you are, are those opportunities to come in as a composer or a musician? I'm curious about also the relationship between, is more of your work expressed these days as like self-directed projects?
12:00 And is that a priority of yours? Or do you also enjoy working as a musician on other people's compositions? So with composition and say composing in that tradition of being commissioned to write a piece for a specific ensemble, et cetera, I've done a lot of that in the 2010s and it became a less and less.
12:23 And then the pandemic just really made me go like, okay, like, let's, let's, let's consider what this is. And if I like it, I never actually really liked it. I never liked composition, the act of being alone and writing the notes, that part I've, I've never felt healthy doing that.
12:43 It's always felt very, it was hard for me to find joy, except maybe at the beginning and then near the end when you're like, this is actually going to be performed. I'm actually going to work with people.
12:55 And so that social part of it is very rewarding for me. So I've kind of I've been drawn to projects where I have more agency also in what I can engage with. And that's not necessarily a question of like permission, like people wouldn't want me to do a piece on identity.
13:21 It's not so much about that. It's for me, it's more, I can't see how the media matches the message of what I'm trying to put out there. So with the piece that I did in 2014, kind of live arts performance.
13:41 I knew that I wanted to explore power, coloniality, voice, satire, all tons of stuff I wanted to explore with that piece. And I could not do that with Wood Quintet's commission, like it makes no sense to me.
14:01 So I knew that this was a live theater slash music slash voice hybrid that I had to do and self produce. And so that's been kind of what I've been craving. It's because I still like to collaborate on things.
14:20 Because it just makes for a more balanced kind of creative cycle as well to sometimes be involved in other people's things or to perform or to not be the one organizing everything and all of that. I think that's a very healthy balance, but for sure.
14:37 all the projects that I dream up of are are usually also not very typical in their formats and need me to have a very slow time in the slow gestation period. I don't know if that's a word in English as well.
14:58 Yeah. And so these I'm curious to learn a little bit more about these forms. Like, was there a moment of kind of rupture where you just got introduced, you know, where you immerse yourself in in drag or karmatic music, or I know that you're also working in other with other forms and disciplines as well.
15:20 Or it sounds like it's kind of been more an organic process of, you know, those being the natural forms to to realize the dramaturgy necessary. But I am just curious to learn a little bit more about that integration of these different practices and what that what that was like to start working.
15:44 And maybe also it was like to start being having your work in those forms received by different public or the same public differently. Yeah, I think it's been organic, but very mindful and also a process in which I allow myself space and grace, I guess, because there's lots of overlapping things.
16:11 And if you look at it like chronologically, I'm still like I have an album of chamber music with the National Arts Center Orchestra musicians that came out last year, which kind of celebrates stuff I was doing in the 2010s.
16:26 I'm still it's, it feels like a bit of a bubble in time to go back to that. But I would I still felt proud. I still feel proud of that work. And I still want to kind of engage with it, but that also came with the question, do I want to write a new piece for orchestra?
16:44 And my gut feeling was no. But let me look backward and see what I want to do with the NAC Orchestra, and that it was to celebrate things that already existed, and that didn't take creative energies away from the stuff that I feel is me now or me in the future.
17:04 So I guess I finished my PhD last year, and my whole thesis was just kind of research creation around voice and theater music and anthropology. And my framework is one of alignment, or seeking alignment, or in my case, seeking vocal alignment, where I want my literal voice that sings and speaks and does things.
17:37 the voice that sounds and then the more conceptual voice, like what we want to say as artists or as people, and to have those kind of aligned and different projects. So you're like, huh, I'm actually using my voice to be my voice.
17:52 Anyways, it's a little confusing kind of thing, but just to kind of bring all of that together. And for me, that takes time. And it takes a bit of accepting contradiction also, because you, you can't, you can't switch.
18:08 We can't switch so fast. I think maybe some people are wired that way. But for me, I kind of need to really feel things out. And that's been so I think this, this like seeking alignment thing, this, this process has has been what led me to, to think like, oh, I did this project.
18:31 And these are the little things about it that I feel are still a bit misaligned. So how can I address that in the next one? And, oh, maybe this way, oh, maybe going more, more. So maybe less commissioned work, more self directed work, that was one step, and then maybe more Indian music influence and less of that European stuff.
18:53 That was another way of aligning. And then with the jury, it was the queer kind of like really going into more of a queer way of, of doing things and of engaging with queer culture as well. And this intersects well, because you're talking about queerness, which, you know, Visuria engages with.
19:13 And I would just love if you could talk a little bit about more about how your practice investigates queerness, and specifically with this work. Yeah, of course, Visuria is a drag persona. It's the name of the show, but also the name of my my drag personality.
19:32 She's she's a character. who's also me, and the explanation between my queerness and my brownness has been really not that it was impossible to do it before I did drag, but really accelerated that and got me the confidence to tackle my South Asian-ness with more confidence and with less of this imposter syndrome that lots of mixed people have sometimes, when in reality, because it's a feeling, because the reality is that every South Asian person,
20:13 even if they're like fully South Asian, will have huge differences in terms of cultural language, religion, background, family history, journey across the globe and all of that. So it's kind of, it's a bit self, not self-centered, but like it's.
20:37 It's easy to just think of like how we are different when in reality, the experience now of engaging more with the South Asian queer community has just revealed how many, all the different ways you can feel like a misfit, it could be because of all these reasons that I've mentioned.
21:00 And for me, Bijiria really helped me to lean into this queerness, not just in theory, because I've always been attracted to that queerness as a lens kind of approach, you know, that you kind of look at things sideways and you have different ways of working on and against dominant culture, the kind of Munoz, this identification model, like I really related to.
21:31 But this was, this felt more real, more grounded in community and challenging myself to not stick with the cultural reference, with the cultural references, say, of the canon and more of the communities I'm already engaged with.
21:52 So Bijiria kind of offers me the opportunity to have lots of different influences and cultural references intermingle in my work from Bollywood to Trinidad stuff to Quebec stuff to sound design that's more experimental, which comes from my work as a composer.
22:18 Yeah, so I feel like the queerness and Bijiria go hand in hand for sure. And you've also been reflecting on coloniality on the new music scene and you unpack how coloniality is reflected in your music making community.
22:40 How have your kind of more academic observations influenced the direction and formats of your work? I think I like the idea that to tackles power. So in a sense, coloniality is just like this structure of a power that we can write off the top of our heads, like white male patriarchy, wealthy, et cetera, North American, European, all of these things that we associate as intersect.
23:14 If you have that as part of your intersection, you have more privilege in a sense. But I like the model that thinks about having a multitude of counter discourses to channel, to challenge the fact that There's not one way of being in the world, which is such an evident kind of statement to do, but it's mind-boggling to me that it's not integrated at all.
23:47 So I tend to want to really lean into specificity of who I am or what I'm thinking or just specificity as a kind of counter-cultural suggestion. You know, it's not like everyone be like me, and that's not what's interesting here.
24:07 It's to have a community of artists that are offering different types of non-standard ways of doing, and that's artists, and that's not the end either. We need artists, we need militant, we need activists, we need all sorts of people to do this.
24:29 So that's why I kind of like to emphasize that I'm an artist, and there are hints of critique and activism to what I engage with, but I feel like what I do best is be creative about the question marks and about the challenges and just be glad that there's other people that are wired to do it differently, and all together we contribute, hopefully, to some sort of questioning or, what's the word, kind of disintegrating the rigidity of what is considered to be a standard way.
25:23 And standard ways exist in so many different spheres. It could be political, it could be social, it could be different things. but it could be about arts as well. So I'm kind of always been wary of artistic figures, kind of emphasizing that this is the way to do this.
25:49 This is how that to me makes absolutely no sense. And I think as artists, we have to just really tap into what we have and go strong in that direction. Speaking about directions, Anthropologie Imagineur was presented by Push and Music on Main in 2016 to much acclaim.
26:14 And can you talk about the direction trajectory of your aesthetic, formal conceptual interests from Anthropologie Imagineur to Visuria and beyond? Yeah, Anthropologie Imagineur for listeners who haven't seen it is a solo performance for myself as a vocal performer who does not actually speak but more so vocalizes and kind of evokes traditional-ish song or vocalization that you could assume are linked to cultures that are on the verge of extinction if not extinct.
26:59 But in reality they are it's all fake so it's kind of a mockumentary. So behind me, I'm the only performer on stage, but behind me is a projection with five speaking heads who you assume are anthropologists or musicologists who have an increasingly flawed and problematic analysis of the sounds that I'm doing.
27:28 So with that project, it was already a very big step from from being a composer. I've always been a improviser and I've used my voice a lot in different performance settings, mostly underground, and this was kind of bringing this vocal exploration with a theatrical framing.
27:50 I'm super proud of that piece, but I knew from its success, I guess, that I wanted to do another one and my hunch for a long time was really that this next piece tackles something a bit more vulnerable and personal, which is my intersection as a queer and brown person.
28:15 So this is what Pejoria allowed to do and in terms of formal kind of like how my my artistry has developed in a way that there's There's more, like the theater part of it takes up more space, because in in Autopolégy Maginart I framed it, I've used theater to frame it, which was and the script did not me speaking it, it's like it's the mockumentary doing it.
28:47 So with drag it allowed me to lead more into character work, if we, you know, sound-wise and music-wise got me to tap into songwriting in a more of a drag-pop aesthetic, which is something I used to do more as a joke.
29:09 I've written lots of joke songs in my life, but never like genuine songs. So carrying that through instead of composing orchestral or chamber music, but really like accepting how I can play with other types of music that I do enjoy but haven't really done.
29:34 I did this in collaboration with a co-composer Gabrielle, another Gabrielle, Gabrielle D'Eau. And so this is how, I guess, my trajectory expanded in each piece. So Bijerio kind of embraces more of the performance and the speaking and the theater side of it.
29:59 And, I mean, the makeup and the drag artistry, which is also a huge thing to learn, very long learning curve. And it's a skill I'm very glad to have developed and really sharpened my visual brain, having been an ear-based person in my work for all of my life.
30:25 And would you say that an approach more rooted in theater is the direction that you see yourself going, or that's just this project? And are you working on something next? Do you have inklings of what you want to explore from here?
30:46 Yeah, I have a project in mind that I'm working on, which would be also at the intersection of music and theater, I'd say. It's too early to kind of be able to say what the proportion is. But to say the truth, I don't really know what theater means, in a sense.
31:07 I think we have kind of fixed ideas of what every art form is. And when we haven't trained in it, we can think of it as the cliche version of what it is. So for me, it's very easy to think in a very nuanced way about music and about sound.
31:29 and I know that some of the stuff I do that's more theater leaning isn't music, so I call it theater, but I don't have, yeah, it's hard for me to identify with the field in a sense, because I don't feel that's where I come from, and that's not where my points of reference are, except when I go see, except as a viewer, but as a viewer, I tend to go see more of a interdisciplinary form of theater, stuff that you'd have at Bush,
32:09 for example, but in Montreal, the F.T.A., for example, or all the O.F.T.A. and all the, that kind of community, the Arvizant, or live arts, I guess you would translate. So yeah, I see myself, yeah, going towards theater, but in a hybrid and...
32:29 unclassifiable sort of way, I guess. And I love dance as well. And sometimes I've been programmed as because you're in dance festivals. So in a sense, all these communities see things in the work that fits, but usually what they're looking for is a fresh take also on what those art forms are, what those boxes are.
32:55 And in some way it's a benefit to not come from a field but kind of like dapple with it. But I think only if you really lean into what you do have and the stuff that you do have a grasp over, which for me is sound and music.
33:14 So that'll always be kind of at the center of my process. And hopefully as the formats expand, it can relate to other artistic communities as well. Thank you so much Gabrielle for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure.
33:33 Thank you. And I look forward to visiting your city. You just heard Gabrielle Darmou in conversation with Push Artistic Director Gabriel Martin in support of their work, Bijuria, appearing as part of the 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival on January 28th and 29th at the Annex.
33:55 Bijuria is presented with our good friends at Music on Main and the Indian Summer Festival with support from the Government of Quebec. My name is Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the wonderful Tricia Knowles.
34:08 Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the 2025 Festival and to discover the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance, music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.
34:29 And on the next Push Play. So it was very important for us not to be in a moralistic approach or scientific approach because I mean we are first of all telling a story and trying to put all the means to tell that story.
34:45 Yeah and humor, poetry, it's really something that we always search for.
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