Publishing Rodeo: The Good, The Bad, and the Bloody Ugly (Sunyi Dean)

Famed for his highly unique fiction, and for the the pink mask that conceals his secret identity, Chuck Tingle (pseudonymous name) is a much-beloved icon in the SFF book world and beyond. Today he joins us to share the incredible story of his journey through publishing, and to make a passionate case for why authors are so much more than just the story they write. We also discuss the nuts and bolts of book deals, running innovative book events, and how to approach publisher negotiations.

Although this has a bit longer run-time than normal, we hope you find this episode as intriguing, entertaining, and profoundly uplifting as we did. LOVE IS REAL, buckaroos!

Topics covered:

• Autism and backstory
• Journey into publication
• The origins of his surrealist art
• Sad Puppies / Rabid Puppies
• Chuck's unique view on the concept of "branding"
• Integrating art with marketing
• The role authors can play in self expression
• The relationship between who authors are and what they write
• When authors we love let us down
• Chuck suggests that publishing is the kindest of all the artistic industries
• Chuck's advice for approaching deals
• We talk about Chuck's deal progression
• Selling books through events, and rethinking them

Huge thanks to our listeners for helping us hit 50,000 total downloads! We are incredibly humbled by the interest and support so far. This episode was recorded during the week while Scott was off for paternity leave, and only features Sunyi as host, with R.R. Virdi (author of THE FIRST BINDING) and Wayne Santos (author of THE CHIMERA CODE) as dual guests, and is more wide-ranging and conversational that some of our other episodes as a result.Content warning for open discussion of drug use, mental health, suicidal ideation, and probably a few other things. SHOW NOTES: ⦁ Ronnie's story of selling a 350k trad debut, on proposal (unwritten), without an agent, to Tor⦁ Wayne's story of near misses, 600 rejections, 15 years of rejection, and the launching into the Covid pandemic⦁ Mental health - how do we cope (if we do?) as writers⦁ How we frame success or failure, as individuals⦁ Authors writing under horrendous pressure and circumstances⦁ Diaspora discussion - writing as diaspora authors in a landscape that often feels hostile and contradictory⦁ Deviations into colonialist history in various SE Asian countries⦁ The toxicity of Twitter and other concentrated social media groups⦁ The souring relationship between authors and readers in the modern era⦁ Twitter's cycle of unending apologies⦁ Some positives about reader/author interactions

Indie vs trad is an ever-green career debate, and is one of our most common listener questions. Authors wrestle frequently with which route will suit them best. But the real question is—why pick between them, when you can do both?

Today, we are joined by Michael J Sullivan (a New York Times, USA Today, and Washington Post bestselling American writer) and Robin Sullivan, a powerhouse industry expert & fierce author advocate. In a detailed, wide-ranging interview, dream team Robin & Michael talk about the triumphs and trials of a very long career: from small press ventures to an unstoppable indie career and mammoth trade publishing battles, before eventually scaling the heights of hybrid success.

As ever, we aren't going to tell you what to do, or what is best; there is no such thing as a categorical answer in publishing. But hopefully we can help provide you enough facts to make informed decisions.Listen to our follow-up in episode 8, where we toss complex industry questions at Robin & Michael, in exchange for some very detailed answers.

SHOW NOTES:

• How Mike and Robin got started - with a book that was small press published, then self-published, then big 5 published

• The first trad deal Orbit Books offered them, and why they accepted it even though they were already successful

• The good and bad of working with a trad publisher, and why they found it a useful experience despite the many negatives

• Editors as project managers, and how much editing quality/quantity varies

• How publishers look at and regard self pub authors

• The difference in indie vs trad profits

• Why Robin and Michael took a second trad deal with Del Rey

• Why Robin and Mike went back to self publishing

• why they don't take money from authors - and their belief in helping, mentoring, and advocating freely

After years of unsuccessful querying and one small-press book, Nick finally hit it big with a break-out novel. Billed among this year's top sci-fi thrillers, ASCENSION is hot property, and has gone to auction in multiple countries--including for its film/tv options.

Today, Nick sits down to chat with us about navigating the world of film/tv options, and how it intersects with book publishing. In addition to talking about the money side, he also defines key terms, gives an overview of the process, and debunks the myth of authors 'needing' a social media platform.

NOTE: For the first time ever, we've deployed our 'alien warp' sound effect to censor a couple of names and companies that come up during the chat, as some details are under NDA. Please do not be too alarmed by the weird noise when you hear it!

Kristina Perez has lived all over the world, working alternately as a journalist, an author, and now as top literary agent. In this episode we cover a number of different topics, putting forward a combination of our own questions and reader-submitted questions, chatting with Kristina generally about the state of the industry and her multi-sided perspective on it.

Topics include: reviving a flagging career, romantasy, trends and pitches, a nuanced discussion on the relevance of platform, and Scott attempting to guess Kristina's accent. Kristina also outlines some of the help she provides her authors, and graciously gave us a number of links to use in the show notes (seen below)

Today we're joined by Nicholas Eames, author of cult favorite KINGS OF THE WYLD to discuss his publishing experience in a wide-ranging interview. Eames is a debut success story, and we hope you find his conversation as funny, uplifting, and engaging as we did (a welcome change after last week's grim deconstruction!) Other topics addressed: -- the creative process of working with a trad editor-- life as a "slow" writer-- how doing other creative projects can keep the writing passion going (this one was a listener question!)-- and a few bonus questions from our discord, with some hints from Nick about the next and future book.

Ever heard the phrase "Money flows to the author"? James "Jim" MacDonald is the one who coined it.

Jim is a long-time author and anti-vanity press advocate who, along with many others, has dedicated years of his life to investigating predatory publishers and teaching new authors to protect themselves. Today, he joins us in this Special Episode to share his experiences and knowledge on the rise of these organisations and how they operate.

This episode differs from our usual because Jim is very much the focus, with Scott and Sunyi choosing to take a backseat. We hope that this episode will be illuminating and helpful to newer authors who are starting to find their feet in this murky industry. This is a topic which is close to our hearts, and on which we feel strongly about.

This audio file is a compilation of 11 clips across various episodes, and is part of our submission to the Hugo Awards "Voter Pack." Everyone who pays for Hugo membership is given a "voter pack" with electronic copies of the books, short fiction, novellas, essays, and--in our case--audio files for fancasts.

Rather than subject voters to hours of episodes, we've chosen to create a short(ish) compilation, spanning the whole of our show! Runtime is only 31 minutes, and we hope it will give you a sense of the kind of humor, content, and discussion that we cover on Pub Rodeo.

Transcripts + show notes are on our website, and on RSS.com.

Richard Swan, Sunday Times bestselling author of JUSTICE OF KINGS, talks to us about the role that luck and timing play in publishing, and the polar opposite approaches that Sunyi and Richard take to writing.

We also deep dive into publishing contracts and clauses that debuting authors should be looking at (Richard used to be a lawyer in his dayjob). Other topics covered: marketing plans (or the lack of them), what editors mean when they talk about "having a vision" for your novel, the advantages/disadvantages of selling world rights, and the hideous invention that is Joint Accounting.

After years of rejections, Kameron's early book deals ran into problems when her publishers either folded or went bankrupt, Instead of quitting, she kept going. And going. In the decade since, Hurley has signed new deals, built a fanbase, and even won a Hugo.

We sit down with her today to ask hard-hitting questions: Why don't we just quit? Why keep doing it? Why not 'just' self publish? And finally, was it all worth it?

Nota bene: SPECIAL THANKS to Casmer Maliszewski for helping us clean up the audio on this episode! We experienced a lot of distortion and he kindly stepped in to help make it a more comfortable listen.

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SHOW NOTES:·

• Long career that begin with a slew of rejections, followed by getting picked up by publishers who either went bankrupt, folded, or refused to pay. Kameron now claws a fierce living on the midlist, with a hard-earned fanbased and a chest of publishing war stories / wisdom.·
• Sunyi reads a bit from Kameron Hurley’s essay, ON PERSISTENCE:· "I felt like I'd failed at everything. Life was a ruin. I found myself living in a spare bedroom at a friend's house, unemployed, deep in medical debt, staring at yet another novel three-quarters of the way finished. When I opened my laptop, the sticky note still stared back at me. Persistence, in all things, in writing, in life. I finished the book. I'd reached a point in my life where I didn't know how to do anything else but finish the fucking book."·
• The importance of being ‘easy to work with’ in the industry·
• But also the importance of knowing your worth and fighting for your career·
• Choosing walk away from bad deals, unsupportive agents or editors, and bad film options (yes you can do all of this!)·
• Why did Kameron choose to champion transparency on her blog? Because the skewed publishing perspective that many writers put forward made her feel like a failure.·
• Examples of midlist writers who broke out to find big success·
• The importance of pen names·
• The importance of giving away arcs·
• WHY DON’T YOU JUST SELF PUBLISH? The dreaded question that we swim through repeatedly in conversations.·
• Why do we keep doing it? Why should we persevere?· Defining personal success, and finding joy in the process.·
• Sunyi’s final question: WAS IT WORTH IT?

In this episode, we will explain who we are, why we’re doing this, and give a quick overview of our paths into publishing. Topics include: trad versus indie, our publishing journeys, is publishing worth it, how much publishing experiences vary, and groundwork basics about the industry. Among others!

This week, we sit down with Arab-American author Nadia Afifi, for a concise and chilled-out chat about her experience of publishing a scifi trilogy through Flametree Press. A lot of listeners are curious about life outside the Big 5 / bigger midsize publishers, so we've tried to cover a number of angles! This episode also touches briefly on wholesaling versus distribution, why royalty percentages vary so much for small presses, advance sizes in that category, and short story writing as a form of signal boosting.

What's the deal with author book events? Are they useful, do they shift books, and why do they all follow the same format? This week, we speak with Sam Missingham, who spent many years working with the Bookseller, and later with Harper as an author events creator. We talk about what works and what doesn't, whether hiring publicists as a trad author is worth the time, the influence of class and connections in publishing, and the real reason so many publisher-run book events fall a little flat. If authors want a successful career, Sam stresses that this requires a long-term perspective and a focus on writing multiple books, as well as a creative and individual approach to self-marketing.

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:00 Background and Experience in the Publishing Industry
• 04:11 The Role of Events in Book Marketing
• 07:05 The Challenges of Filling Book Events
• 09:00 The Value of Events for Debut Authors
• 10:26 The Influence of Class and Connections in Publishing
• 15:00 The Myth of the Slush Pile
• 18:39 The Need for Engaging and Fun Book Events
• 20:24 The Value of Indie Author Events
• 25:26 The Role of Marketing and Publicity for Authors
• 27:22 Working with Traditionally Published Authors
• 31:33 The Challenges of Hiring PR and Marketing Services
• 41:57 The Empowered Author and Building a Strong Author Platform

Steve Lead is a freelance cover artist and industry podcaster, with many years' experience working on book cover designs in the publishing industry. Today, he sits down to help demystify the complicated process that goes into creating a book cover. We discuss briefs, trends, industry pay (or lack of it), the impact of thumbnail images on print books--and finally, the elephant in the room: the burgeoning technology that is generative AI, and what it might mean for us all.

00:00 Introduction and Background

03:08 Interactions with Authors and the Design Process

07:03 The Design Brief and Constraints

09:02 Pay and Salaries in the Design Industry

12:04 The Impact of Thumbnails on Book Covers

32:31 The Role of AI in Writing and Design

34:00 Concerns and Fears about AI in the Creative Industry

35:06 Legal Ramifications of AI in Publishing

36:27 The Need for Accountability and Fair Compensation

37:21 Controversies and Criticisms of OpenAI

39:16 The Impact of AI on Artists and Creators

41:14 The Dark Side of AI and Social Media

44:34 The Use of AI in Social Media Platforms

46:18 The Potential Benefits and Limitations of AI

48:08 The Controversy of Cover Quotes on Book Jackets

53:43 The Frustration with Front Cover Quotes

• Miles (Christian) Cameron, and his 25+ year journey through trad publishing
• Started off co-writing thrillers with his father for a lot of money, until that genre changed almost overnight
• Surviving the sudden death of a writing career, and starting over from scratch
• Monetary differences between genres (historical, fantasy, scifi, thriller, litfic)
• When to negotiate with publishers on ideas and when to pursue passion projects
• Balancing personal artistic integrity against publishing’s commercial expectations
• Surviving advance to advance, and slowly growing your readership as a midlist author
• Advice given to Sunyi: Write what’s in your heart but with your practical hat on
• Staying with your publishers for years, versus shopping around
• Books “unflopping” later in life
• Cameron’s specific social media strategy that does increase his sales, and which he uses consistently
• “wrong” ways to approach self promotion, and finding the balance
• Writing/Fighting and enjoying your “author persona”
• Publishers think your midlist book is important for about a week after launch, but Miles believes it is important (in a sales sense) for 90 days
• Thus: The 90/60/30 approach that Miles uses for self promotion, completely on his own and without publisher involvement—and how precisely to run it
• An exact presales figure that Miles looks for in his own books (relevant to his books and where he is with his backlog/career)
• Paid adverts and where/when Miles chooses to use them
• The difference between SIZE of following, and ENGAGEMENT of following. Influencers versus book clubs, as an example
• Authors are not competing with authors!
• What IS a publisher’s cut on your books?!
• Do publishers know exactly what they’re making? Miles suggests probably not
• The importance of versatility for authors
• Why you HAVE to love what you’re doing
• Miles’ military experience – how it impacted and influenced his fiction
• The most common combat writing tropes that drive Miles nuts
• Some thoughts on how Miles writes historical, versus fantasy (not that different!)

Because it's NOT bad, not all the time ;-) After Dr. Kerry's brilliant but hard-hitting previous episode, we wanted to return after summer with something gentler, funnier, and possibly even wholesome. This week, please join us as we talk to award-winning fantasy author RJ Barker. Despite dropping out of high school, suffering a chronic illness, losing one agent, and dying on sub , RJ has found his feet on the shaky ship of trad publishing. These days, he has 9 published books under his belt and many more on the way. We talk about about the clash of art versus business, the ever-present spectre of self-doubt, and how to keep your sanity and perspective in an industry that very easily strips both away. And above all, the 'pervasive and remaining joy' that is writing--the real reason we all got into this business.

Just an outtakes edit from Alex Darwin's episode 38, in which Scott shares a hunting misadventure. Absolutely no industry content whatsoever, simply a short bit of chat. Also featuring: Alex Darwin and Sunyi Dean.

CONTENT WARNING: Animal hunting (elk) is discussed in detail, which may be upsetting to some listeners.

So you've signed a book deal, and the book contract has arrived. What does it mean, what can you ask for or changed, and how involved should you be? What organisations can help, if any? Also, why don't we have a writer's union / writer's guild, and how might we get one in future?

Today, we sit down with Julia Vee, who is an established indie author with a forthcoming trad title, Ebony Gate, via Tor 2023. Julia also happens to be an attorney in her dayjob and we can't wait to discuss those questions and many more with her (including touching on non-competes again.)

Other topics included: Julia and Ken's co-writing partnership / process, what good sales or bad sales look like for debuts in the first year, the Mark Lawrence formula for looking at sales via Goodreads ratings, and a few other things.

Sunyi and Scott have always maintained that "bigger is better" when it comes to book deals, and that any downsides will also apply to smaller advance sizes. But Ed Wilson, the literary agent and director Johnson & Alcock, believes the discussion is much more nuanced, and that 'blockbuster' book advances can sometimes be a symptom of publishing not working well.

With 18 years of experience in the industry, Ed brings a shrewd but frank perspective on a variety of important topics in trad publishing--along with some thoughts on American football, and the shininess of Scott's teeth. Oh, and we think you'll love his "petty hill" segment at the end!

Topics covered:

• Book advance sizes, and what they mean for your career
• Leverage, and managing publishing relationships
• Whether publishers really can "stall" an author's career
• Crucial contract clauses for the modern author
• The importance of literary agent relationships
• Editors getting insider book deals
• Football comparisons
• Bookscan inaccuracy
• And more!

You know the drill: same genre, same publisher, same debut year--but very different deal sizes, and very different publisher treatment. But how does that actually translate to a book's performance, and what impact does it REALLY have? With the help of some Captain Morgan rum, Sunyi and Scott talk about the months surrounding each of their launch dates, and how their books did, or didn't, perform sales-wise.

Other topics include:

• How Scott hired a publicist (and other things he tried to give his book a boost)

• How ARCs create the "word of mouth" effect

• The importance of Goodreads, trade reviews, and influencers

• Sales data for the first 6 months, from both Scott and Sunyi's respective launches

• Pubs supporting you when things go wrong, as well as when things go right

• Why your editor relationship might be the most important one you have in publishing

• Scott's biggest piece of advice for authors on sub

Additional Notes:

• Blog guest posts (scalzi blog)

• Bookseller letter (example on Sunyi's site)

• Shelf Awareness (wiki article)

• Whitebox mailing (link)

• Su Blackwell (Sunyi's cover artist)

• The Orbit cover photo shoot video (youtube)

After years of mostly existing in indie space, Romantasy has finally burst onto the trad pub scene where it now reigns supreme, especially in SFF. Today, we talk to Nisha J Tuli, who spotted romantasy's trad potential early and whose career took off as a result. Her career trajectory is a microcosm of what is happening with romantasy more broadly, and gives us the chance to explore what it is like to catch the crest of a publishing wave. Nisha also shares with us specific tactics she employed as an indie author, and how they could be useful for trad, indie, and hybrid authors alike.

Other topics: Sunyi comes out in defense of writing to market, Nisha stresses the importance of still writing what you love (even when writing to market), and how they intersect. There are different types of readers, and different types of writers, and they have different goals with regard to books. We also discuss the amount of money to be made in this particular subgenre, why Nisha chose to go trad/hybrid after seeing indie success; and the longevity of romantasy overall.

As our one and only return guest, JT Greathouse joins us for the launch of Season 2, this time in his capacity as a true-hybrid author (with a bookseller's eye). JT sold his debut, HAND OF THE SUN KING, to a UK publisher, but didn't get a USA deal. With the support and help of his literary agency, he opted to self-publish the American version in the States.

This week, we talk about the process of getting your books into stores, the nitty gritty of distribution in relation to small presses, indie authors, and hybrid folks like JT, how to make smart choices, the ways in which books can build towards success, and the (psychologically) damaging myth of the "instant best seller" launch.

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• the advantages of splitting rights versus selling world rights
• Thinking about strategies for selling the rights of your book
• self pub USA, trad pub UK
• The importance of ingram
• Why are book royalties so low in trad? What does higher royalties mean in the context of smaller presses
• Good presale numbers--how to calculate this as a debut (jeremy's 'vibe check' formula)
• Debuts not making or breaking you
• how online discussions skew our perception of success
• how to make good decisions
• Jeremy and Scott bicker (good-naturedly) over the definition of "tiers"
• Bookseller mentality re hype and sales
• Small, achievable goals - not totally powerless!
• NEW PODCAST SECTION: The Smallest Hill You're Willing To Die On

Authors are expected to juggle many different demands on their time and energy--from social media and self-promotion, to side projects and live events. How do we decide what is or isn't worth our efforts, and where do we set boundaries to prevent burnout and overwhelm?

Award-winning author and professor, Suyi Davies Okungbowa, discusses how he makes the writing life work for him, by balancing his original fiction and his prolific IP work against his academic career.

Among many other topics, he outlines the crucial role of a personal assistant (especially how they can supplement publisher marketing), his criteria for accepting or rejecting IP projects, his very unique approach to social media, and how he sets certain boundaries with publishers.

The trade publishing industry relies heavily on bookstores and their booksellers for a successful business model. But what do booksellers actually do for authors, and how do they fit into the publishing ecosystem? We hope that this episode will illumiate some of those questions, and provide an ongoing deep-dive into how this industry functions.

Today we are joined by 3 guests: Jeremy, Claire, and Kerry, and we are grateful to all of them for their shared wisdom!

Show notes and topics covered:

• how to define success for you, personally

• the importance of audio, and the commercial impact of a good narrator

• commercial versus artistic decisions

• what happens when a book underperforms, and what you can do about it

• navigating option clauses for future books

• how sales track-records can impact future contracts

• using leverage (when you have it!)

• What you can argue for in contracts, and how much you can push back

• things you CAN do to help promote your book

• questions from listeners! (A few).

Mike's specific advice:

• Success is specific and individual, and relative to your career

• Ask for audio rights reversion with 12 weeks of release

• Pick 1 or 2 things in your contract you want to fight for

• Research your audio narrator

• Know what you want/need upfront

Sunyi and Scott's added emphasis:

• your sales are not your fault!

Links:

• Michael Mammay's Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/MichaelMammay

• Michael Mammay's website & blog (with tons of articles about publishing and writing): https://www.michaelmammay.com/

Catch-up episode after a long gap! Sunyi and Scott both discuss career momentum, cheerfully losing at the Hugos, and the pushback they've had from Reddit / the internet. Sunyi explains why she'd turn down other nominations in the future, while Scott talks about why he was happy to sign a smaller deal for his UK rights. They also cover future plans, and what happened to previous author guests.

And finally, they each get to give the pettiest hill they'd die on. Hint: Sunyi's hill starts with "J" and ends in "owling".

Link to the Guardian article that Sunyi talks about in her Petty Hill at the end: https://www.theguardian.com/books/1997/jul/08/booksforchildrenandteenagers.danglaister

• Got through the Angry Robot slush pile, unagented
• Lives of Tau was a stellar breakout success
• Cowriting with Cassandra Clare, and being tutored by Diana Galbadon
• Watching yaoi, learning to write sex scenes
• Publishing experience with the big 5; getting blacklisted by a publicist
• Recovering and moving on with your career
• The shocking number of people who quit the industry
• Film options (navigating them, making good choices)
• The “churner” model of publishing and why AI will kill it off
• Changing market trends in the USA and UK
• Book 2 promotion and a listener question

Both Richard and Sunyi hit the Sunday Times list right out the gate in the UK. How does that happen? Who gets to decide, and what does it mean? We explain how the Sunday Times lists work in the UK, the importance of crates (and other independent gatekeepers), and why the list is both hard to hit without orchestrated support. Additionally, we discuss what authors should be most afraid of, and what we wish publishers would openly say.

This week, the wise and witty Ella McLeod sits down to talk with us about the hard-hitting, ever-prevalent topic of whiteness in publishing, including in our own podcast (!) and dissecting the dreaded Diversity Tick-Box. (And if you're curious about that title, we do explain it in-episode!) But first, we also chat about some of the differences between YA and adult publishing, and her experiences as an actress, poet, podcaster, and now a debut author. Also, Ella turns the tables at the end to ask what our editors/publishers think of us running this podcast.

This week, we chat with Anika Scott, an international bestselling author of historical fiction. After years of writing, querying, and revising, Anika's debut novel was snapped up amidst a whirlwind of interest and buzz--only to then launch a week before COVID shut the world down. On one continent, her book flourished, while on another, it tanked. We discuss the European scene, including the Frankfurt Book Fair and what it means to be a Frankfurt book, as well as being editorially orphaned, different genre readerships, recovering from a devastating COVID launch, and more.

Off the back of episode 7, we sit down to throw some complex industry questions at Robin & Michael J Sullivan, in exchange for some very detailed answers. Questions have been marked with rough time stamps for your convenience!QUESTION 1 00:58 What kinds of changes did you make specifically to the Orbit contract that defanged the noncompete to the point that you still had flexibility?

• As part of the above: what ARE non-compete clauses, what do they actually mean, are they enforceable, and can you negotiate with the publisher on yours?

• 05:26 Followup: are non-competes even legal / enforceable? (answer: no, not really)

QUESTION 227:19 - "Going with Orbit and Del Rey, despite the negatives, was worth it for expanding the readerbase. What things did these publishers do that worked, in terms of getting you out there, and what we who are early in our careers could likewise do to amplify our success or our current situations? And/or what kind of things did YOU do, on top of what your publishers were doing, that worked?QUESTION 3 47:59 - "Whether you have some sense for where the industry is going since you've been on both sides of it, and what you'd recommend for authors in terms of how you'd structure their career?"SHOW NOTES

• 13:30 - Authors feel intimidated in negotiations

• 14:00 - NDAs! are we allowed to talk about what's in our contracts? (Answer: yes)

• So much depends on the editor you get

• Publishers will heavily market two types of books: books that already make the money, or books that will make a splash. Otherwise it's on you to sink or swim.

• Sunyi's Press Kit gets a mention - feel free to use hers as a template, and build your own

• 33:31 - The Three Steps To Publishing Success (by Robin)

• what is a really good book? Let's define it (and why Twilight IS a good book, actually!)

• 34:49 - The ratio of readers, cheerleaders, and superfans⦁ Interacting with readers - benefits to the author

• The "authenticity stamp" of trad publishing

• 39:00 - would they do the trad circus again, if they could redo it?

• The difference between trad and indie succcess

• The future of publishing, and some positives/negatives

• Why Michael would actually recommend indie authors to try the trad / hybrid route for awhile, and what they can learn from that process

• What ChatGPT means for high-volume indie authors

• Quick pep talk for Scott!

• Why writing is truly the best job ever - and not quite like any other job in the world

Big 5 midlist vs midsize author: which is better, which is worse, and what are the pitfalls of going on way or another?

This week, we’re joined by Clay Harmon, author of Flames of Mira, to answer exactly those questions as we discuss his publishing journey. As usual, we go hard on the facts: details, money talk, gentle honesty, and bleak statistics.

Authors who are querying, on submission, or under offer from publishers may find this one particularly insightful.

In addition to writing bestselling novels and cofounding a viral podcast (THE BESTSELLER EXPERIMENT), Mark Stay also spent many years working with bookstores and publishers, gaining great insight to all sides of the industry. We chat to Mark about his varied experiences, and reflect back on the seven years he spent recording his groundbreaking podcast. This one is fun and quite eye-opening for behind-the-scenes stuff.

• 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Origins
• 01:09 Mark Stay's Background and Bestseller Experiment
• 02:45 The Impact and Pressure of Bestseller Experiment
• 03:10 The Success and Community of Bestseller Experiment
• 04:05 Lessons Learned from Bestseller Experiment
• 05:17 Disillusionment and Quitting While Ahead
• 06:12 Finding the Right Tone for Bestseller Experiment
• 07:31 Defeatism in Traditional Publishing
• 08:12 The Empathy and Doom Scrolling of Creatives
• 09:25 The Challenges of Self-Publishing
• 10:34 The Importance of Loving the Process
• 11:49 Mark Stay's Journey from Bookseller to Author
• 13:35 The Experience of Traditional Publishing
• 15:49 The Unconventional Paths in Publishing
• 19:00 Self-Publishing the Bestseller Experiment Book
• 20:33 The Challenges of Selling a Genre-Bending Book
• 22:44 Takeaways for Authors to Give Their Books a Good Shot
• 28:29 The Impact of the Podcast on Scott Drakeford's Publishing Journey
• 32:42 The Reception and Impact of the Podcast
• 35:16 Challenges Faced by Publishers
• 37:06 Focus on Brand Authors
• 38:04 Neglecting Growing Authors
• 39:03 Ineffective Advertising Campaigns
• 40:00 The Mistake of Becoming Bigger
• 42:21 Digital Publishers and Genre Preferences
• 43:18 Preference for Tangible Books
• 44:09 The Importance of Book Covers
• 45:37 Amazon's Dominance and Publishers' Reliance
• 46:31 Amazon's Control and Negotiations
• 47:02 Amazon's Focus on Other Ventures
• 48:31 Visibility and Impact of Amazon on Authors
• 49:28 The Influence of Nielsen BookScan
• 53:41 Diversity in Publishing
• 55:05 The Future of Publishing and Concerns
• 56:02 American Cultural Imperialism
• 01:03:19 Smallest Hill to Die On: Americanization of British English
• 01:09:06 Plugs: Bestseller Experiment, Witches of Woodville

Today we're joined by Peter McLean, a fantasy writer who clawed his way to authorhood through an indie publisher slush pile, despite not being agented at the time. Pete talks to us about his publisher imploding, his first series getting canned, and the perseverance that saw him land another book deal--this time with one of the Big 5. Seven books and ten years later, he's still in the game, with a wide range of experiences and insights to share. And a few laughs along the way.

In celebration of making it to 10 episodes, Scott & Sunyi answer some of the host-specific and/or personal questions that listeners have submitted. This is not really an official episode, just a fun, rambly, probably-too-opinionated extra for them who are interested.

After solid sales for his first duology, David Wragg's next book series got caught in the infamous post-covid "midlist death spiral". After this current trilogy finishes, his future in trad is uncertain at best.But with his usual good-natured humor,

Wragg cheerfully dissects the past six years of his career, including advances, royalties (or negative royalties in this case), the reality of post-debut book deals, and the differences in production quality between tiers of books. Finally, he and Scott discuss the pressing question of how and why authors keep writing, despite it all. (Though this episode description may seem bleak, we promise it has a few laughs along the way.)

After submitting his debut self-pub novel to the annual SPFBO (self published fantasy blog-off) competition and reaching the semi-finals, Alex Darwin landed himself with a "trad deal" and agent. In the months leading up to his trad re-launch, Alex applied his self-pub experience to his upcoming book launch, trying a number of different angles. Reflecting back, he shares what kind of tactics worked best to give his book the best possible chance.

Topics covered:

• Being a hybrid author
• How SPFBO works and can benefit indie authors
• Paying for publicity (via Black Crow) in the UK specifically
• Collaborative efforts with Orbit on marketing/publicity in the USA
• Book Tours (an assessment and reflection)
• Finding an angle for pubs to use
• Thinking about longterm goals
• LitRPGs and why they remain indie
• Theories about the goal of OrbitWorks (digital only imprints)
• Chatter about jujitsu and other nonsense

If you've ever been curious about alternate or adjacent writing careers, this episode is for you! David "D.V." Bishop got his start 30 years ago writing for comics and IP franchises, before later moving to tv/film scriptwriting. These days, he's back to books and is now an award-winning historical crime novelist.

Bringing to bear years of varied experience, he walks us through the trenches and pitfalls of an industry that makes trad pub look like child's play--including the kind of working conditions you can expect, and the kind of money you might be able to earn.

Oh, and Scott gets to ask his burning question at the end: why do some big-budget tv franchises turn out so crappy?!

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Full notes:·

• 30+ year career.
• Started out writing for comics, then moved to tie-in novels, then wrote for film and television· Is currently an award-winning historical crime novelist·
• David has worn a LOT of hats·
• How do you get started as a screenwriter?
• David talks about the paths into that field for television versus film.·
• Explanation of a brutal, competitive, cut-throat industry·
• How does film and TV compare to trad publishing? Much harsher!· Limited negotiation and power in script writing / IP work·
• Rights and creativity and anything created is signed over forever·
• How has the landscape of publishing changed in the past 30 years? Mostly good or mostly bad?·
• The advent of self publishing, the rise of electronic submissions, the accessibility of information·
• The financial side of script-writing: what does it make, what can you expect?·
• Wait…. You guys make HOW MUCH?! O.O·
• Good pay if writers can endure the crushing pressure and difficult environment·
• If you want to break into film, you need an agent, and probably also a lawyer, and a manager.·
• Tie in novels: how much they earn (enough to support you, not enough to retire or quit)·
• Novelisations of films: Tough gig, potentially good money·
• ALWAYS sign a contract first·
• The pitfalls of trying to learn screenwriting / doing your own book adaptations as an author·
• Scott’s burning question: why are some big budget shows SO awful? What went wrong?·
• And finally: Why David is happy to be back writing novels, why he enjoys it, and why he genuinely aspires to be a well-supported midlist writer.·
• “Either you're the skyrocket and then the hope is you can sustain that thereafter, or else you have to be the little engine that could and you just have to keep chugging away and putting out the books and raising the quality and raising awareness and getting out there and pimping your book and hustle, hustle, hustle.”

Our final show of the season! This week, we talk frankly about author leverage--what it means, and how to use it. We also discuss when and how to pitch new books on proposal, the impact of past sales on that process, and why Scott is (probably) walking away from writing trad fantasy as a result.

Other topics: we reflect on regrets and highlights across the past year, do a quick summary of where we are, why we've slowed down, and what's going on, AND our plans for Season 2 (there will be one!) and how it will be different from Season 1.

Finally, Scott introduces a new shiny thing we've been working on: the Author Data Project, an adult-fiction version of the YA research that Dr. Kerry Pray conducted and discussed in an earlier episode.

Links to the other 2 podcasts we mentioned and recommended:

• The Failing Writers Podcast, featuring Jon Rand, Tom Turner, and Dave Baird: https://www.failingwriterspodcast.com/
• Great fun, honest conversations, fantastic guests!
• Cover Meeting, with Steve Leard: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cover-meeting/id1706806306
• A side of the industry authors normally don't see!

• The founding of Illumicrate, and Daphne’s story
• A bit about book production, what they can or can’t do
• How does IC choose and acquire books for its crates?
• What IS a crate book – is there such a thing?
• Buliding a book community
• “Social media doesn’t help” but it does?
• Crate market in the usa – why so small?
• UK versus USA book culture
• Setting up an independent press, makign the leap from Illumicrate to Daphne Press
• The importance of editors, and why Daphne wanted to get that exactly right
• What exactly do trad editors DO? Scott breaks it down.
• Editors jobs are complex and very poorly paid
• Why Daphne doesn’t acquire world rights atm (it’s a good and noble reason!)
• What Daphne looks for in author submissions
• Daphne’s surprising tip for how you best catch her attention with your submission!
• Why Daphne Press doesn’t currently accept indie submissions (but hopes to in future!)
• Daphne’s love for indie books and authors generally

In 2008, Dr. Kerry Spencer Pray watched her book die on submission after the financial crash halted publishing acquisitions. She then decided to do a PhD, focusing her research on what makes books sell. After studying hundreds of factors, Dr. Kerry Pray zeroed in on a handful that seemed correlated with book sales in some way. All of them were marketing related, and often linked to a book’s advance (which is itself often representative of the support a novel gets). Let's dig in!

• Dr. Pray talks to us about the data she collected, the methods she used, and the research she produced in pursuit of this project, focusing primarily on the YA market
• End result: she developed an algorithm that could predict the success or failure of a given novel, with about 75% accuracy
• Her other big find: the minimum marketing viability threshold (ie, the point at which a book has a shot at selling well, which is defined in this case as selling within expectations relative to its advance)
• Books can be assigned a marketing viability score, and books which fall below that threshold have zero chance of success (that she has studied so far)
• Most well-marketed books still don’t succeed, but they have a significantly better chance of doing so, and when they do succeed, they sell extremely well
• We discuss various factors and angles of this data / research
• Dr. Pray lays out the eight factors correlated with book sale success
• We discuss outliers, or apparent outliers, and the “myth” of self made success that accompanies very good-selling books
• Sunyi’s theory on why high concept books might thrive better in this kind of environment, and also her metaphor for books as rocket launches (the concept of trying to get into orbit)
• Scott’s speculation on whether publishers run these algorithms themselves, and why or why not they might do so
• The surprising importance of Twitter, and the irrelevance of star ratings
• General chatter, and where you can find Dr. Pray to get in touch