People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast (Zachary Elwood)

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A reshare of a 2022 talk I had with existential psychologist Kirk Schneider. We talk about existential psychology and the power of being able to better understand and recognize the core anxieties we all have about existence, such as our fear of death, meaninglessness, isolation, and freedom. Other topics: how existence can be awe-inspiring but also terrifying; what “existential psychology” and “humanistic psychology” are and how those forms of psychology/therapy differ from more well known and traditional forms of therapy (e.g., psychotherapy); the psychology behind political polarization and narcissism.

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Apologies for the sad clickbait-y title. I'll be okay. I was trying to be a little funny. This is just some updates on things I've been working on and how you might help me if you'd like to do so. Or apart from helping me, you might like learning some details about how my books and podcast have been doing (spoiler alert: not great).

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I thought it'd be interesting to read a very dumb book from 1969 called "Face Reading: A Guide to How the Human Face Reveals Personality, Sexuality, Intelligence, Character, and More." It's about finding meaning in people's physical facial characteristics; not about reading emotions or expressions. To be clear: this is a very bad book with no sense/logic to it, basically astrology-like, and I'm reading it because I was curious what it said and thought some other people would find it interesting. I'm generally curious about the weird things people believe; also curious about some stereotypes that were present about facial characteristics in the 60s era. I thought it was an interesting relic and some other people might also think so. 

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A talk with Russell Hurlburt, who’s researched inner experience for more than five decades. He is the author of 6 books and many articles on the topic of mental experience. Topics discussed include: The difficulty of describing inner experience; the ambiguities in the classification of “aphantasia” (reporting no visual qualities in one’s thought processes); the ambiguities in the “inner monologue” concept; thought on whether dreams are visual or not; and more. 

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In a recent Fox News interview, Trump was asked whether he thought there would be chaos and violence if he won the election, and his response included mentioning that, if necessary, the National Guard or other military might be needed. Many framed this response as indicating that Trump would go after his political opponents and those who opposed him using the military, leaving out the context that the question asked was about election-related violence. I discuss what this incident can teach us about our toxic political divides. Topics discussed include: Republican-side grievances and how incidents like this relate; how conflict leads us to filter things in more pessimistic and negative ways; the self-reinforcing nature of toxic political polarization; the importance of trying to understand your opponents’ narratives; how understanding doesn’t require agreeing; Trump’s “bloodbath” language and similar highly negative reactions to that; the ease with which we can be biased without even realizing it, and more. Learn more about my polarization work at american-anger.com.

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Psychologist and magician Anthony Barnhart discusses some behaviors magicians use to misdirect attention and manipulate an audience. Other topics include: the role blinking can play in misdirection; magic acts that claim to use psychology and behavior-manipulation to achieve their feats (e.g., Derren Brown); neuro-linguistic programming (NLP); a magic show Tony was impressed by recently, and more.

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In June of 2024, I got an op-ed published in TheHill.com about Elon Musk's polarization -- specifically his affective polarization, which refers to how people perceive and treat their political opponents. Like many in our highly polarized, righteously angry society across the polical spectrum, Elon Musk treats the "other side" with much contempt and disdain. You can often find him insulting and demeaning people on his social media platform, as well as claiming to know with high certainty the hidden, malicious motives in his opponents' minds. In this episode, I read my op-ed and add some additional observations. Topics discussed include: How high-contempt approaches help create pushback from opponents and in that way are self-defeating; The importance of distinguishing 'what we believe' from 'how we engage'; How conflict influences more and more people, on both "sides," to behave in high-contempt ways; How we might criticize "our side" in order to encourage better ways of engaging.

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On the Nextdoor app, a fake account succeeded in getting some personal info from me before I realized they were a scammer. I discuss how that scam went down, share an audio call I had with the scammer, and give some tips for spotting online scammer behaviors and traits. These tips are focused on online marketplace scams but should be applicable for a lot of online scammers in general. 

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A talk about hypnosis and mind control with Martin S. Taylor, a well known British hypnotist (hypnotism.co.uk). Martin is known for his stage hypnosis act but also for educating people about hypnosis and removing the illusions and mystique surrounding it. There are some people who make astounding claims that they can control and manipulate people using hypnosis. Some even claim they can get people to do things against their will and their ethics. Some of these people claim they can do this quickly, within minutes, and that they can teach you to do the same. There are clearly some impressive things you can do with hypnosis (as Martin will attest) — but there are also clearly many unethical and deceptive people in the NLP/hypnosis/influence space who exaggerate what you can do with it. In this talk, Martin and I try to separate fact from fiction — reality from bullshit.

Topics discussed include: How did Martin get into hypnosis? What’s going on in a stage hypnosis act? What psychological factors lead to people acting in unusual and extreme ways in those settings? Is there such a thing as a hypnotic “trance”? Is it a special state? Martin’s thoughts on hypnosis used for therapy and self-help. MK Ultra and other government programs related to mind control and brainwashing. The importance of being skeptical about grand claims about hypnosis and mind control. 

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   A talk with Robin Dibble, an experienced Albuquerque-area service industry professional who’s worked in every aspect of the business, from waiting tables, to cooking, to managing restaurants and night clubs. Topics include: psychological strategies servers use to get more tips; how menu design can affect what people order; reading customer satisfaction as a restaurant manager; the factors in deciding to cut someone off from drinking; lighting and acoustics considerations when designing a comfortable space. This is a reshare of a 2019 talk. 

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Media bias specialist Vanessa Otero, founder of Ad Fontes Media, talks to me (Zach Elwood) about my books aimed at reducing toxic political polarization in America. Topics discussed include: common objections to and skepticism about this work (for example, views that those working on depolarization are "helping the bad guys"; why overcoming objections is so important; how conflict makes people behave in ways that amplify the toxicity of the conflict (often without knowing it); our distorted views of each other; how our contempt can help create the very things we're upset about; and more. 

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The fraud Chase Hughes, whose major lies and unethical behaviors I’ve examined in past episodes, continues to succeed in getting popular podcasts with large audiences to interview him. Chase recently appeared on the podcast The Diary of a CEO with host Steven Bartlett; he also appeared on Patrick Bet-David’s podcast (PBD podcast). He's also been on Dr. Phil's show, and on Leon Hendrix's podcast DRVN. I examine some clips from Chase's appearances on a couple of these podcasts, as a public service announcement to the millions of people who may have recently learned about Chase and become fans. I recap some of the absurd claims Chase has made. I talk about why I think these podcasts keep interviewing him, and what it tells us about the internet information ecosystem. I examine an early podcast interview where the host told me for Chase's bio he just wrote what Chase said and didn’t vet it, which is what many of these podcasts have done. More podcast appearances; more seeming legitimacy. For the first episode of mine about Chase’s many lies, search online for “Chase Hughes lies” and you’ll probably see it near top of search results. 
 

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I interrogate an 8-year-old about her belief in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and other magical creatures. 

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In the documentary Money Electric, filmmaker Cullen Hoback put forth the theory that developer Peter Todd was Satoshi Nakamoto, the mysterious creator of Bitcoin. In this episode, I talk to cryptocurrency expert Jeremy Clark (pulpspy.com)  about this theory, with a focus on the language and behavior of Peter Todd. We discuss: the 2010 forum post by Peter Todd that forms the backbone of Hoback’s theory; Peter’s behavior in the film when confronted, which many people saw as suspicious and strange; the difficulties of relying on nonverbal behavior for clues; and how simple, neat, and exciting stories can attract us.

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Brian Dunning, creator of the podcast Skeptoid, made a documentary that brings a skeptical, analytical eye to the recent UFO craze – including those three famous UFO videos released by the Pentagon that got a whole lot of attention in a 2017 New York Times article. His documentary has the tongue-in-cheek title “The UFO Movie They Don’t Want You To See” and you can find it at www.briandunning.com/ufo. I think more people need to see Brian’s movie; it explained a lot and now I feel like I finally understand those videos. It’s been surprising how little attention the more rational, analytical explanations for those videos have gotten. If you’re someone who’s seen those videos and thought “What the hell is going on?” I think you’ll want to watch Brian’s movie. In this short episode I focus on one specific explanation for one of the videos in question. (I recommend watching my YouTube video version of this episode.)

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I talk with Liz Stokoe, who studies conversation analysis (CA) and who's the author of the book "Talk: The Science of Conversation." Stokoe studies how language choices can impact us and change our behavior, often without us being aware of that. Topics include: the more surprising and interesting things Stokoe has found in her work; the popularity of the very wrong "most communication is non-verbal" concept; the practical use of CA work in persuading people to do things; why Stokoe analyzes scripts from comedy shows (like Friends) in her work; perceptions that men and women talk differently; ideas about building rapport.

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This is my third episode about Chase Hughes, the self-titled “#1 expert in behavior and influence.” My first episode about him examined his early deceptions and exaggerations, and his involvement in pick-up artistry and vitamin supplement sales. In this one, I talk about how Chase’s work relates to Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) and NLP-related hypnosis. Long story short: Chase has used the NLP trainer template but repackaged it with a military/secret-agent/MK-Ultra-type spin. I examine the connections between NLP and Chase’s content. I also attempt to explain why Chase (and people like him) can acquire good reviews and fans, despite so much of it being obviously silly and also expensive. I also examine Chase’s recent promoting of supplements sold by a chiropractor. And I talk about the various people who've promoted Chase, from influential podcasters to Dr. Phil to his fellow Behavior Panel members, and why there seems to be such a lack of interest in these people examining his background and claims. A later episode will focus specifically on behavior analysis and the Behavior Panel. This episode is focused squarely on NLP/hypnosis.

Topics discussed in this video include: how Chase’s concepts relate to NLP; what NLP is and why people attend those seminars; my own personal experiences working for an NLP trainer; how NLP seminars relate to other experiential/transformational multi-day seminars; good/neutral aspects of NLP/hypnosis/influence type content and training; the many influential people who’ve promoted Chase; why these things can impress people despite being so obviously silly and strange; what a hypnosis expert had to say about Chase's stuff; why behavior-analysis and influence/hypnosis-type offerings lend themselves to exaggerated claims; and more.  

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A talk with psychologist Leonard Saxe, who is known for, amongst other things, his research into lie detectors (also known as polygraphs). Topics discussed include: why polygraphs and other forms of deception detection are unreliable; the use of polygraphs as a tool to extract information and confessions; the Richard Ames case, which involved a high-level CIA employee spying for the Soviet Union and beating a polygraph when questioned; a story where someone’s life was ruined due to cops trusting polygraph evidence far too much; and more.

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Many surveys and headlines have claimed there's a large percentage of Americans who support political violence. Some estimates have been around 25% – and some have gone as high as 40%! This is very scary; it ramps up fears of a violent and chaotic American future, and even fears of a civil war. But political polarization researchers like my guest Sean Westwood have shown that many people are massively overstating the problem. And that overstatement is leading to hysterical and unhelpful framings and debates. Worst of all, these exaggerated fears can even contribute to a self-reinforcing cycle… a self-fulfilling prophecy. Topics discussed include: what the faulty surveys and studies are missing; how bad survey design (ambiguous questions, or leading questions) can lead to faulty estimates; what more accurate survey results tell us; how exaggerated fears can contribute to a self-fulfilling prophecy; and why people embrace and promote overly pessimistic narratives.

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What if I told you the left-right political spectrum was an illusion? What if I told you there is no “left” or “right”? My guest is Hyrum Lewis, co-author of The Myth of Left and Right: How the Political Spectrum Misleads and Harms America. They argue that we’ve embraced a simplistic, faulty idea of an essential “left/liberalism” and an essential “right/conservatism.” And that, similar to embracing a faulty medical idea (like the old theory of the four humors), embracing a faulty political theory has hurt us in major ways. For one thing, it creates a perception that instead of there being many different issues, there is just a single issue (left versus right) and that choosing the right “team” gains you access to all the right ideas. Embracing that concept in turn amplifies conflict and anger, by making our divides seem like a war between two set and essential ideologies. It makes it easier to embrace a good-versus-bad way of seeing our political divides. Topics include: why Hyrum believes the left-right spectrum is an illusion; common objections to their idea; how persuasive political thinkers have found their idea; the ways in which language and foundational concepts can amplify divides; the horseshoe theory; ways we might speak and write in better ways about our political disagreements, and more.  

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A piece I wrote for my Defusing American Anger Substack (learn more at www.american-anger.com). It’s my attempt to persuade Americans why they should see it as vitally important to work on reducing political toxicity, even as they may have various fears and grievances and anger about their political opponents. If you have skepticism about the ideas in this piece, I would ask you if you'd be willing to read my ebook on this topic, Defusing American Anger. If you want a free copy, email me via my american-anger.com website and I'll send you one. This is an extremely serious problem and I think to help solve it we need more people to consider ideas that may, at first, make them uncomfortable. 

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I talk to a professional astrologist named Ophira Edut. I myself don't believe in astrology but I was interested in asking her questions I've wanted to ask about astrology, and about belief in astrology. Topics include: why she believes in astrology, how her beliefs in that relate to other beliefs (like Reiki or other metaphysical ideas), people's negative views about astrology (including the view that people promoting astrology are doing harm); the importance of engaging respectfully with people we strongly disagree with, and more. Whether you're into astrology or whether you’re a hardcore skeptic, I think you’ll like this episode.

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John Wood Jr. is a leader and ambassador of the depolarization group Braver Angels. He ran for Congress in 2014 as a Republican against Maxine Waters. Topics discussed include: the history of American polarization; us-vs-them behaviors of leaders on both political sides; what drew him to conservative politics; how traditional conservatism differs from the Trump brand of conservatism; what it's like being black and conservative; black American political thought; GOP efforts to make voting harder. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Robert Drysdale, a Brazilian jiu-jitsu and mixed martial arts expert and world champion, on the roles psychology and predicting opponent behavior can play in professional fighting. Topics: the role of psychology, mental preparation, and action-anticipation in MMA and jiu-jitsu. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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Abe Rutchick talks about his psychology research that showed that killing is easier at a distance, how the experiment was designed, and about antisocial behavior in general being more likely when at a distance. We talk about his research related to how people attribute moral responsibility when it comes to harm inflicted by autonomous self-driving vehicles. And we talk about some studies he worked on that involved poker.  

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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Brandon Sheils is a professional poker player who recently did a scientific study of poker tells as part of getting a Masters degree in Psychology. Topics discussed: the challenges of studying poker behavior; how he structured his study; what the results were; AI and machine learning potential for studying behavior; some times he's used behavior to make a poker decision. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with political scientist Thomas Zeitzoff, who has studied political conflicts. We talk about survey results that show an increase in Americans' willingness to support political violence, and how that relates to our fears over future violent conflicts and "civil war" scenarios in America. Other topics discussed include: the psychology of polarization; the Ukraine-Russia conflict and the role of social media in that; the effects of social media on society in general. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Dino Levy about his research team's research, which used monitoring of facial muscles and machine learning to detect lies at an impressive 73% success rate. Their paper was titled "Lie to my face: An electromyography approach to the study of deceptive behavior." We talk about the results, the possible explanations, comparisons to polygraph lie detection, and applications of this research and lie detection technology in general. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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An examination of the reasons why people believe the 2020 election was "rigged," stolen, or otherwise illegitimate. This includes a talk with Peter Wood, a sociologist and political thinker and writer, who strongly believes that the 2020 election was stolen. Other topics discussed: election distrust by liberals (in 2016, for example), and how election distrust and chaos is a common endpoint for very polarized democratic nations. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with psychology and addiction behavior researcher Paul Delfabbro about cryptocurrency, problem gambling, and addiction. Delfabbro has worked on several papers related to cryptocurrency, including a paper titled "The psychology of cryptocurrency trading: Risk and protective factors" and one titled "Cryptocurrency trading, gambling, and problem gambling." Also discussed: the role of social media in amplifying addictions, day trading, and video game addiction. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with political scientist Leonie Huddy on the topic of research on American racism and prejudice.  I was interested in discussing framings like this one from a 2012 USA Today article: "U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks" and ask her if such confident framings were justified based on the research, or if they were over-stated and irresponsible. Topics discussed: the ambiguity that can be present when attempting to study prejudice, especially for studies that seek to measure it rather indirectly; how worst-case and pessimistic framings and interpretations of studies and surveys can add to us-versus-them political animosity. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Robin Dibble, an experienced service industry professional who has worked all sides of the restaurant business, from waiting tables, to cooking, to managing restaurants and nightclubs. Topics: the role of psychology and perception-manipulation in the restaurant and service industries. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Bill Ottman, co-founder and CEO of the social media platform Minds, which is known for its minimal content moderation approach. Ottman and others (including Daryl Davis, a black man known for singlehandedly deradicalizing white supremacists) recently wrote a paper titled "The Censorship Effect," which examined how strict censorship/banning policies may actually increase antisocial, radicalized views. We talk about the psychology behind how increased censorship policies may increase grievances and anger, about Elon Musk buying Twitter and what it means, about the complexity of the problems we face, and about strategies they've used on the Minds platform. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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As part of an effort to share some of the best and most popular early episodes of my podcast, this is a rebroadcast of a 2019 episode where I interviewed psychology and relationship researcher Brandi Fink. We talk about behavioral patterns that indicate either healthy or unhealthy relationships, talk about analyzing video footage of interpersonal interactions, cultural differences in relationship dynamics, and more. 

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A rebroadcast of one of my most popular episodes: a talk from 2018 with Mark McClish, who's an expert in analyzing spoken and written statements for hidden meaning, and who's been a US Marshal and law enforcement trainer. He's the author of the books I Know You Are Lying and Don't Be Deceived. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with psychology researcher Matthew Hornsey about political polarization and the psychology behind it. Other topics discussed include: why people can believe such different (and unreasonable) ideas; persuasive tactics; the importance of people criticizing their own group; why groups mainly listen to in-group members and ignore the same ideas from out-group members. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A reshare of a 2019 talk with forensic linguistic researcher Olu Popoola where we discuss indicators that online reviews are fake or genuine. We talk about his work analyzing indicators of deception, and talk about some research he did on Amazon book reviews. If you've ever read an online review and wondered "This seems fake, but how do I really know?", I think you'd enjoy this one. 

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A reshare of a 2018 talk with jury specialist Christina Marinakis about how she makes use of human psychology and human behavior in her jury consultancy work. Topics discussed: jury selection procedures; what jury consultants do; the relative importance of jury selection compared to the strength of the case; clues to potential jurors' beliefs and future behaviors from their body language, verbal answers, clothes, and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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This is a reshare of a 2020 talk with psychology researcher Neguine Rezaii. She and her research team used machine learning to find language patterns used by teenagers who were at risk of schizophrenia that were correlated with later schizophrenia diagnosis. The two language patterns found in the subjects' speech were 1) a low semantic density (i.e., low degree of meaning), and 2) speech related to sound or voices. 

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A talk with Dr. Casey Grover, addiction specialist and host of the podcast Addiction in Emergency Medicine and Acute Care, about how doctors attempt to determine if a patient is trying to get a drug prescription under false pretenses (e.g., claiming to be in pain to get opioids). Topics discussed: why "drug-seeking behavior" is not a good phrase; what some classic drug-seeking behaviors are and also why they're not very reliable; steps doctors take if they think someone might have a use disorder; America's drug problems, and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with communication researcher Tim Levine about nonverbal behavior and deception detection. Tim's stance is that there's no evidence that nonverbal behavior is useful for detecting deception. He's the author of Duped: Truth-Default Theory and the Social Science of Lying and Deception. His work was featured in Malcom Gladwell's book Talking to Strangers.

Topics discussed include: what the research says about nonverbal behaviors; why it's so hard to get reliable indicators of deception; common nonverbal behavior myths and bullshit; why we expect others to tell us the truth; why we tend to tell the truth; Paul Ekman's work, including micro-expressions and "truth wizards"; reading behavior in interrogations; the differences between analyzing verbal content and nonverbal behavior; the TV show Lie to Me; poker tells; and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Sabrina Hoppe about a 2018 study that showed how eye movements are correlated with personality. That paper was named 'Eye movements during everyday behavior predict personality traits.' We talk about how the study was set up, what the results were, how strong the correlations found were, reasons for why such patterns might exist, possible applications, and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Andrew O'Donohue, co-author of Democracies Divided: The Global Challenge of Political Polarization. Andrew has studied how societal conflicts play out in many countries, and the harm those conflicts inflict. Topics discussed include: why it is that political polarization is so common a state for humans; how polarization has played out in various countries; countries that can serve as comparisons for America in terms of polarization; the psychological drivers of polarization; the impact of social media and modern life on polarization, and more . 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk about how understanding psychology and behavior can play a role in successful door-to-door sales. Host Zach Elwood interviews two experienced door-to-door salespeople: Conrad Smith, who was a top salesman for a well-known home security system company, and David Mock, who did door-to-door sales for a large, well-known home remodeling company. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Steven Heine about how we react to our sense of meaning being threatened. What happens when our mental frameworks of how the world works don’t hold up and things seem chaotic? What happens when our sense of what’s existentially meaningful in our lives is threatened? Topics discussed: Heine et al’s Meaning Maintenance Model; existential crises, including mid-life crises and adolescent angst; how polarization might be related to threats to meaning; positive aspects to our worldviews suddenly changing; and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with nonverbal behavior expert Alan Crawley, also known by his online handle Sin Verba (www.sinverba.com). Topics discussed include: why he became interested in behavior; the challenges of studying behavior; the practical benefits of studying behavior (including connecting better with others); irresponsible "behavior experts" who share bad information; and how to spot bad behavior information. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Larry Hart, a football coach at the University of Houston, and the author of the book The Recruit's Playbook. Topics discussed include: common behavioral patterns (tells) that are used to get an edge on opponents and teams; reading the signals that opponent coaches give to players; reading formation patterns; the importance of reviewing game tape; predicting how athletes will perform when one is recruiting them; and more.  

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A talk with psychologist Richard Bentall, author of the well known book Madness Explained, which examines the psychological causes of the symptoms associated with psychosis, schizophrenia, mania, and other mental issues. Topics we talk about include: the experiences and mental struggles that can lead to psychosis and other mental illness; how theories of mental illness have changed over time; pushback and criticism of psychology-focused explanations of mental illness; aspects of madness that most of us experience at some point; the role of feelings of isolation in madness; and the difference between beliefs and delusions. 

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I was interviewed on Mahima Samraik's podcast Breaking The Facts about my struggles with anxiety and mental issues as a young man, which led to me dropping out of college in the middle of my second year of college. We talk about what that experience was like; recommendations for people dealing with similar problems; and the obstacles that can get in the way of getting help. 

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A talk with Blake Mobley about the business of recruiting: matching job seekers with companies that are hiring. Blake is the co-founder and managing director of recruiting company Keeper Recruiting, which specializes in biotech. Topics discussed include: what the process of recruiting is like; how Keeper goes about learning pertinent details about job seekers; the metrics by which recruiting companies are judged to be successful; the different "core motivators" people can have in their lives and how that relates to recruiting; personality tests; and Blake’s earlier career in the intelligence community and how he sees that relating to his recruiting work. 
 

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A talk with conflict resolution specialist Guy Burgess, who, along with his wife Heidi Burgess, run the project www.beyondintractability.org. Guy and Heidi wrote a paper in 2022 titled "Applying conflict resolution insights to the hyper‐polarized, society‐wide conflicts threatening liberal democracies." I talk with Guy about: how conflict resolution principles might be applied to U.S. polarization problems; the importance of addressing liberal-side contributions to polarization; the common objections people can have to seeing polarization as a problem that both sides must tackle; how some in the conflict resolution space may be hindered from helping by their own liberal bias and polarization; the Burgesses' ideas for what society must do to reduce polarization to more healthy levels, and more.

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A talk with journalist James Kirchick about the origins of various types of American antisemitism. Topics discussed include: controversial statements made by Kanye West and Whoopi Goldberg; Donald Trump; Israel; George Soros; Louis Farrakhan; Black Hebrew Israelites; the term "globalist", and more. 

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This episode is all about the People Who Read People podcast. Topics discussed: the origins and goals of this podcast; my approach to deciding on who to interview and what questions to ask; why I focus on polarization-related topics and why I think that work is important; details on audience numbers and financial stuff.

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Wilfred Reilly is a political scientist, professor, and author of the 2019 book Hate Crime Hoax. Topics discussed include: how hate crimes are tracked; why it can be hard to get a clear picture of hate crime numbers; the logic of 'hate crime' as a legal designation; irresponsible media coverage of racism-related issues; the motivations of people who fake hate crimes; distorted perceptions of American hate crimes and racism; how distorted perceptions can amplify polarization; and what it's like working on these topics while teaching at a historically black college. 

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A talk with Brian Dunning, who you might call a professional skeptic. He has been doing the Skeptoid podcast since 2006, and is the creator of multiple books and video projects aimed at promoting critical thinking and skepticism. We talk about the reasons why we're so often drawn to pseudoscience, bullshit, and no/low-evidence ideas in general. I also get his takes on assorted ideas, such as chiropractic work, acupuncture, UFOs, eye movement desensitization therapy, the placebo effect, and more. 

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A talk with Philip Furley, who has done a lot of research on behavior and psychology in sports. Topics discussed include: how an athlete's body language can influence teammates, opponents, and even judges; behaviors and strategies of penalty kickers and goalkeepers in soccer; some specific behaviors from the recent World Cup; collective displays of team unity (like the "Haka"); the difficulties of finding behavioral patterns in sports; thoughts on making practical use of Furley's research findings. 

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A talk with Dr. Brandi Fink, a psychology researcher who has done work analyzing the interpersonal dynamics of couples and families, including couples and families having physical abuse and drug/alcohol abuse issues. We talk about: the reasons why researchers and therapists attempt quantification of interpersonal behavior; how some analysis/coding systems work; the challenges in coding behavior; common physical and verbal patterns that can point to interpersonal problems; brain scan research on the effects of alcohol; and more. 

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A talk with psychologist Jessica Maxwell about her research on sexual relationships. We talk about "growth" versus "destiny" views on sex: in other words, whether someone sees sexual satisfaction as something one must work on, or if one sees it as largely an issue of destiny--something that’s either present or it’s not. Other topics include: the role of media in affecting our views on sex; how boredom and lack of novelty can hurt sexual satisfaction; performance-related anxiety; how porn might be affecting people’s ideas of sex; thoughts on scheduled date nights versus more spontaneous attempts at romance; sleeping in separate bedrooms. 

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In the small town of Caroline in central New York state, there seems to be a war going on. A large sign in the town reads, "There’s a war in the valley, time to pick a side." The divide is over proposed zoning laws. Rebecca Schillenback is a resident who wrote a letter to the local paper objecting to the war-like us-vs-them rhetoric she sees her neighbors using. I talk to Rebecca about: the nature of this divide and the roots of the emotions; how it relates to our national us-vs-them divides; and her Quaker faith and its role in her attempt to reduce anger. 

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A talk with Herman Ilgen, who's been a negotiator for more than 30 years and who is the founder of the Institute for Nonverbal Strategy Analysis (INSA). Ilgen has researched how facial expression patterns may be connected to personality traits. His paper was titled "Personal Nonverbal Repertoires in facial displays and their relation to individual differences in social and emotional styles." Topics discussed include: what led him to do that work; what the findings were; how he makes practical use of those findings; and general thoughts on negotiation strategies. 

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A talk with racecar driver Andy Lally, who specializes in endurance GT (sportcar) racing. Topics we talk about include: What's the breakdown in skill versus chance in an average race? What are the considerations when trying to pass other drivers, or trying to prevent drivers from passing? Where’s the boundary between acceptable behavior versus behavior that people would consider too-aggressive and dangerous? What are some spots where Andy was proud of his decisions? What it’s like being a vegan in an industry where that’s pretty rare?

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When trying to convince people of the problem of polarization and the necessity for depolarization endeavors, a common objection from politically passionate people goes, "But the other side is horrible, so polarization makes sense." In this episode, I talk about one of the main counterpoints to that objection: that us-vs-them anger, in a non-obvious way, helps create the very things we're angry about. For this reason, if one wants to defeat extreme views on the other side (or on both sides), the way to achieve that goal is to take a depolarizing, anger-reducing, de-escalating approach. 

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A talk with Nadja Heym, a psychology researcher who specializes in dark traits, like psychopathy, narcissism, and sadism, and who has researched so-called "dark empaths": people with dark traits who have a good amount of empathy. We delve into some nuance in the area of psychopathy. Topics discussed include: How she defines psychopathic traits; The misuse of the term "psychopath" (and related misuse of other terms like "narcissist"); Can we say from a brain scan if a brain is "psychopathic"?; "Bad seed"-like concepts of how psychopaths arise; Can an environment (like a highly competitive job) make someone have more psychopathic traits?; What are "dark empaths"? 

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Calvin Wayman was raised in a fundamentalist Mormon cult, with four mothers and 44 siblings. This world was everything he had known. At the age of 30, he left that world, and was effectively on his own, isolated from everything that had previously given his life meaning. We talk about that experience with a focus on the existential feelings of isolation and loneliness that accompanied it. Topics discussed include: how he began to question his world; factors he sees as present that made him someone willing to question things; Plato's allegory of the cave; The Matrix and our willingness to take the "red pill"; how his community and family reacted to his decision; the human desire for certainty; and more. 

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Some updates about: the release of my Defusing American Anger book (available at www.american-anger.com); some depolarization-aimed videos I put on YouTube; and my upcoming interview with Robert Talisse, author of Sustaining Democracy. 

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A talk with social psychologist Anne Wilson about memory and how we define who we are. Topics discussed include: the nature of self; the nature of memory; the fallibility of our memories; the theory of temporal self appraisal (which is about how we experience ourselves as being close to or far away in time from different versions of ourselves); false memories; the role creative storytelling plays in constructing our views of self and the world; and political polarization. 

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A talk with poker player Lara Eisenberg, who won the 2021 World Series of Poker Ladies Event, and who cashed in a 2022 World Poker Tour event for $481,000. Topics we talk about include: how her thoughts about poker tells have changed over time; some specific behaviors from a poker hand from the Ladies Event; some behavioral patterns she noticed in herself; the anxiety involved in bluffing; and skydiving, which Lara has done competitively. 

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Aviation security professional Philip Baum talks about analyzing behavior for aviation security and risk assessment purposes, and for security purposes in general. Topics discussed include: looking for deviations from the baseline behaviors normal in an environment; successes of behavioral analysis for security purposes; what can make some of this work controversial; thoughts on what aviation security does wrong. 

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A talk with political theorist Robert Talisse, author of Sustaining Democracy: What We Owe To The Other Side, which is one of the best book about American polarization that I've read. We talk about: the limits and realities of democracy and what it can achieve; separating expected and healthy polarization from unhealthy, toxic polarization; what we owe to our fellow citizens even when we see them as very misguided and even dangerous; how extreme polarization can make our relationships and coalitions even with politically similar people suffer and fall apart. 

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A talk with Simonne Mastrella, author of the research paper "Acting Anxious: The Impact of Candidates' Anxious Nonverbal Behavior on Interview Performance Ratings." Topics discussed include: the design of the study; her findings; whether they found any differences in gender or in the nature of the job interviewed for; and the challenges of using actors to emulate behaviors for a study. 

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A talk with Barry Prizant (barryprizant.com), author of the influential book Uniquely Human: A Different Way of Seeing Autism, and co-host of the Uniquely Human podcast. The focus is on understanding the experiences and behaviors of autistic people. Topics discussed include: understanding the underlying causes behind the sometimes seemingly inexplicable behaviors of autistic children; the various types of experiences contained within the label of 'autism'; the role that sensitivity to sensation and associated anxiety plays in autism; the question of how empathetic autistic people are; the causes of autism. 

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A talk with psychology researcher Mikey Biddlestone, who specializes in conspiracy theory beliefs, about some of the more psychological factors that can make belief in conspiracy theories more likely. We talk about "just world" beliefs (beliefs that the world is largely just and fair) and how those might relate to conspiracy-minded thinking. Other topics discussed: how narcissistic and antisocial personality traits can relate to such beliefs; how we might define what is an unreasonable level of conspiracy-minded thinking; how conspiracy-minded thinking relates to anti-establishment views; the survey result that showed that 12 million Americans believe in "lizard people"; and how conspiracy-minded thinking ties into political polarization. 

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A talk with anesthesiologist Ashita Goel about her work. Topics include: the sometimes strange behaviors of people under anesthesia; the hypnotic and "truth serum"-like effects of anesthesia; factors in determining drug dosage; the various states one can put people into; why anesthesiologists often seem outgoing and fun; the viral video of the man who woke up from anesthesia and didn't recognize his wife; and more. 

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A talk with Bill Doherty, a relationship therapist and the co-founder of Braver Angels, a political depolarization-aimed group. Topics discuss include: his approach to couples counseling; thoughts on dealing with the common situation where one partner is much more interested in healing the relationship than the other; the importance of seeing our role in a conflict, and why that can be hard for us; how he got into the depolarization work; the similarities he sees between relationship counseling and political depolarization work; the psychological principles that have informed Braver Angels' approaches; thoughts on what we are asking of people who want to help with depolarization work. 

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Craig Malkin is the author of 'Rethinking Narcissism: The Secret to Recognizing and Coping with Narcissists', in which he describes the spectrum of narcissism: how it can be healthy to have positive illusions about one's self and one's life, as long as those illusions don't become pathologically unhealthy and toxic. Topics discussed include: the spectrum of narcissism, as Craig sees it; common misconceptions about narcissism; the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, which is the basis of many people's understanding of narcissism; existential and psychological factors that can lead to more narcissistic ways of engaging with the world. 

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A talk with Martina Dove, author of the book The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques, about some common scams you and people you know might encounter (phishing scams, "pig butchering" scams, romance scams, wrong-number-text scams, and more). We discuss how these scams work, and some strategies for avoiding them. 

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For the purposes of depolarization, I think it's important to understand the us-vs-them political narratives around us. This is a talk with Rich Logis (www.perfectourunion.us), who describes his journey as going "from ultra-MAGA to Never-Trump." Rich was an involved pro-Trump activist, who'd written many political op-eds and who volunteered for pro-Trump causes, and who, in 2021, switched to being very critical of Trump and MAGA. I ask Rich about the reasons he was enthusiastic about Trump: what the sources of his anger were, and why he viewed Hillary Clinton winning in 2016 as an "existential threat." We discuss some of the more rational reasons behind Trump support, and why he believes most Trump voters are good people, and why liberals should care to understand Trump voter perspectives. We talk about the nature of us-vs-them conflict and how it distorts our thinking and emotions. We talk about what led to his abrupt change of mind when it came to Trump and MAGA. 

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This episode is about "behavior bullshit." There are many self-proclaimed behavior experts spreading bad, misleading, and irresponsible concepts about human behavior, and some of these people are quite popular. This episode focuses on Jack Brown (Twitter: @drgjackbrown), one of the more egregious offenders amongst behavior bullshitters. Other topics discussed include: eye-quadrant behavior analysis (for example, someone looking to upper right); NLP (neuro-linguistic programming); some of the common bad ideas in behavior bullshit ; the use of ambiguous language to make one's background seem impressive; and more. 

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A talk with orchestra conductor Ming Luke (mingluke.com). Topics discussed include: what a conductor's body language and gestures can communicate to the orchestra; how small differences in gestures can sometimes result in significant musical differences; the difference in conducting styles that can exist between conductors; the role conductors play and the benefits they bring; the leadership and managerial skills required to be a strong conductor. 

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Maria Konnikova is the best-selling author of the books The Biggest Bluff, The Confidence Game, and Mastermind: How To Think Like Sherlock Holmes. Topics discussed include: the human desire for certainty and story/narrative, and our discomfort with ambiguity and uncertainty; how she decided to get into poker and write The Biggest Bluff; why she finds poker such an interesting game; how one can pursue a career one finds interesting and rewarding.  

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A talk with Yakov Hirsch, who thinks that some Jewish people have exaggerated ideas about the amount of antisemitism in the world, and overly pessimistic ideas about the nature of antisemitism. This can make some Jewish people see disagreement, criticism, and conflict too often through the lens of antisemitism. Hirsch ties this into the Israel/Palestine conflict, and also relates this to a long-running debate about the "banality of evil" (which relates to, amongst other things, the motivations of Nazis during the Holocaust). We talk about Hirsch's ideas in the context of conflict dynamics and conflict resolution: for example, the tendency in conflict for people to have distorted views of people on the "other side."

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Vanessa Otero is the creator of a popular and well respected media bias chart that ranks the bias of many news outlets, and she's the founder of Ad Fontes Media. Topics discussed include: the process her team uses to determine bias; the difficulties of determining what is "left" and "right" in a polarized and fast-changing political landscape; recognizing that everyone is biased and that the best we can do is try to reduce our bias; the relation between media bias and polarization; perceptions of the word 'misinformation' being liberal-leaning; liberal-leaning journalists' pushback to Trump being elected; and more.  

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A talk with two people with door-to-door sales experience. We talk about the tricks and strategies they used to close sales, and the psychological factors in why those strategies work. Topics discussed: verbal and physical sales scripts some companies use, and why they work; the use of ambiguous language in deception; the power of personal anecdotes in gaining rapport; the importance of getting a customer to commit in writing to the deal; how simply spending time together can build rapport and make a sale more likely. This is a reshare of a 2019 episode. 

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Joel Berman is a practitioner of Compassionate Listening (compassionatelistening.org). Joel has travelled to the Middle East and talked with Israelis and Palestinians about their experiences and grievances. Topics discussed: Joel's experiences in the Middle East; what the Compassionate Listening methodology entails; the bravery required for conflict resolution work; and both of our experiences being introverts with a lot of social anxiety. 

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Animal behavior researcher Daniel Mills talks about various aspects of the human-pet relationship, with a focus on his research. Topics include: dogs' abilities to read human emotions and how they do that; the effects of pets on our mental health; animals' ability to perceive images on a TV screen; the differences between the human and animal mind; pets' abilities to sense their owners arriving home from far away; how cats communicate relaxation to each other. 

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I talk with psychologist Christopher Moyer about electrodermal activity (EDA), also known as galvanic skin response (GSR), which is what lie detectors measure. Topics discussed include: What are spikes in electrodermal activity actually telling us? We talk about its use in lie detectors. We talk about lowerings in skin conductance and what that indicates. We talk about the nature of stress; and how there can be good and bad stress. We talk about poker and gambling, including some gambling-related studies that measured electrodermal activity. 

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A talk with Scott Stossel, author of "My Age of Anxiety: Fear, Hope, Dread, and the Search for Peace of Mind." Scott is also national editor of The Atlantic. Scott's book is a history of the condition and treatment of anxiety, and also a personal history in which Scott talks honestly about his struggles with debilitating anxiety. I talk to Scott about what he's learned in his research and personal life about the factors behind anxiety and how we might, as much as we are able to, overcome it. We also talk about some fairly unexamined nuances about anxiety: for example, how the word can contain a multitude of very different experiences. I also talk about my own anxiety, which has been quite severe.

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A talk with Jon Michael Hoefling, a sports analyst, about reading behavioral tells and indicators in football, baseball, tennis, and other sports. We focus on a 2021 story that quarterback Ben Roethlisberger had a tell: how he positioned his foot before a play was a strong indicator of whether he'd run or pass. We also talk about reading tells and predicting actions in baseball, tennis, and other sports. One story we talk about was Andre Agassi claiming to once have had a very reliable tell on Boris Becker. (This is a reshare of a July 2021 episode.)

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A talk with Kevin Arceneaux, whose research found that a surprising number of people (around 40%) either agreed with or did not disagree with statements like “When I think about our political and social institutions, I cannot help thinking 'just let them all burn'?” In their paper, they called this a "need for chaos." We talk about what the study entailed, what they found, and what the factors might be that help explain the finding. We also talk about its relation to toxic polarization, and to social media.  (This is a talk from 2021.)

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Another talk with Yakov Hirsch, who writes about the Middle East conflict and about "Hasbara culture": what he sees as the tendency of some Israel-defending people to be overly antagonistic and us-vs-them in their thinking (for example, unfairly framing criticism of Israel as "antisemitic"). If you haven't heard the first talk, I recommend that one. This talk is more generally about the nature of conflict, and about how conflict can make us perceive the world and the people around us in overly pessimistic and antagonistic ways, which in turn leads to more conflict. It's also about the importance of trying to have cognitive empathy for people we disagree with and see the world from their perspective; even for people we may think are harmful and dangerous.  This will be followed by a second talk where Yakov and I talk about American polarization and polarized views of Trump. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk about trying to understand Trump's anger at the American media and how that relates to American polarization. This is from a talk I had with Yakov Hirsch in late November 2023. Other topics discussed include: Trump-Russia media coverage; Americans' polarized views of Trump; the importance of trying to understand even those people we perceive as dangerous and harmful; American polarization and conflict dynamics in general. This is from a video talk; you can find the video talk on my People Who Read People YouTube channel.

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with professional poker player Yakov Hirsch about the well known high-stakes poker situation where amateur Robbi Jade Lew was accused of cheating by professional player Garrett Adelstein. We give our takes on the hand, and the overall situation, and we talk about Robbi's possible motivations and thought processes during this hand, and about what her behavior might indicate about her thinking.

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A reshare of a talk with David Zulawski from 2018. Zulawksi is an expert in interrogation and interview techniques and the cofounder of Wicklander Zulawski and Associates. Topics discussed include: Why is the non-confrontational, rapport-focused technique he recommends the best one? Why is it important to downplay the significance of a crime? Why is it important to try to prevent someone from denying the crime/accusation?  Why is it important to not tell a suspect all the evidence you have against them? What are some behavioral clues a suspect is lying or telling the truth?

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with professional poker player Dara O’Kearney about poker tells (aka, physical and verbal behaviors in poker). Dara is the co-host of the popular poker podcast The Chip Race and the author of several books, including GTO Poker Simplified. We talk about: the importance of poker tells compared to strategy; how Dara’s views on tells have changed over time; some ways poker players can get info from opponents (e.g., insulting them or being nice to them); some poker hands where opponent behaviors played a role in a decision. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

Learn more and sign up for a premium subscription at PeopleWhoReadPeople.com.

A talk with screenwriter/producer Brian Koppelman, known for many TV and film projects, including the poker movie Rounders, the show Billions, and the series Super Pumped: The Battle For Uber. Topics discussed: how he decided to create Rounders; poker tells in Rounders; the excitement of reading people and their behaviors; the difficulty of reading behaviors in most real-world situations; and the anxiety-reducing benefits of transcendental meditation. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with journalist Isaac Saul, founder of Tangle News (readtangle.com), which shares takes from across the political spectrum. I think Tangle is doing amazing work. I think the more Americans there are who read Tangle, the less toxically polarized we'll be. Topics we discuss include: aspects of Tangle News that make it depolarizing and anger-reducing; how Isaac conceives of the problem of political polarization; his work debunking "the election was stolen" narratives in 2020, and more.

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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A talk with Daniel Whiteson, a professor of physics and astronomy, about free will, with a focus on what the effects in one's life are when one doesn't believe in free will. Topics discussed: Our thoughts on why we think free will is unlikely to exist; psychological and emotional aspects of living without a belief in free will; the anxiety and even anger that some people can have about the idea that we lack free will; the idea that a lack of belief in free will can be part of a spiritual, positive way of experiencing the world; and more. 

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To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

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Elizaveta Friesem writes about media and about social power (i.e., the power people exert over other people).  I first interviewed her about media and polarization in 2021 about her book "Media Is Us." Topics we discuss here include: Michel Foucault’s ideas about power (often referenced in liberal academic world); the oppressed/oppressor framework (also often referenced); how simplistic views of social power can be divisive and result in a reduction in people's empathy; how the free will debate ties into these ideas; political polarization related to some of these ideas. 

Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

Support the show

To get ad-free episodes, and more, get a premium subscription. To learn more about the show, go to behavior-podcast.com. I'm on Twitter at @apokerplayer. See a summary of my work.

Learn more and sign up for a premium subscription at PeopleWhoReadPeople.com.